In a really difficult situation
Hello, I need some advice please. I’m in a really difficult situation at the moment . I have the support of my intermediate family and boyfriend, which I know I’m lucky to have.
I will start with my parents. They got divorced years ago when I was five, I’m now 22. They realised were not lovers, just very good friends and since, have always
been very happy to be in each other’s company when they’ve needed to be. I had a very stable and happy up brining and always been very close to both my mum and dad.
Since finishing university I’m now back home living with my mum, stepdad and younger half-sister and working full time. My dad lives with his girlfriend, who has been on the scene for about a year and a half now. I see him a couple of times a week around my hospital job.
My problem lies with my dads current girlfriend. I have always managed to form good relationships with my dad’s past partners, but with this girlfriend we’ve never been able to hit it off, I have never been able to say why exactly. I have always been civil and polite towards her but never forced anything. My dad has always tried to encourage us both to form some sort of friendship and once in a while he will do something to try and implement this. A few weekends ago he invited me round for dinner and to watch a film. I went along and when I got there he announced he had to go to work, I knew he had done this on purpose and I decided to go along with it and make a really big effort with his girlfriend. I tried to make conversation with her but she seemed uninterested so we put the movie on. Throughout, she kept on getting up to get a drink or go and do something and I could tell she was really uncomfortable in my company. I’m a fairly easy going person but I was beginning to feel unwanted. I did think about going home but before I went to make a move I asked if she was ok. She paused the movie and I thought she was going to have a go at me about something but instead she launched into her whole life history, her childhood, past boyfriends and girlfriends, where she didn’t have to but told me my dad knew that she was bi. It was bizarre but she seemed more relaxed, the more she told me about her past. She then start questioning me about past ex boyfriends and my current boyfriend and asked if we were happy, it felt quite personal but gave her a little bit of insight. She then asked if I had ever considered being with a woman, considering I had only just told her I was very happy with my boyfriend I found that question really odd. When I said no she took offence and started to demand why and how did I know when I hadn’t tried. I did explain I have nothing against bi or gay relationships but decided that conversation was getting silly and it was time to end the conversation and for me to leave. when I got up to go she grabbed hold of my arm and pulled me down and touched my leg and tried to kiss me. I managed to move away from her and ask what the hell she was doing. She wouldn’t answer me so I left her on her own and waited for my dad to come home. I really wanted to leave but didn’t trust her not to make something up. When my dad came home she started crying and told him we had a really bad fight but she missed out a lot of information, her touching my leg, trying to kiss me . She became very angry and denied everything she said and did, when I told my dad the full story and accused me of being a manipulative liar. In the end my dad told me to go home and he would try to sort things out.
When I got home and I told my mum and step dad what had happened, they could see I was visibly shaken by what happened and were outraged and wanted to solve it for me there and then but I decided to leave it let it blow over for a couple of days as nothing was going to be solved that evening. My boyfriend has also been supportive, doesn’t believe anything happened.
I didn’t hear anything from my dad for over a week, I tried to contact him but got no response from him. My mum has also tried but had no response, in the end I ended up knocking on my dads front door where he told me I wasn’t allowed in his house as his girlfriend wouldn’t have me there as she was still very upset. I admit I did get angr and demand why he wasn’t responding to any of my calls and that I had done nothing wrong and I hadn’t lied about anything. He told me he was in a very difficult position that he had his partner telling him one thing and daughter telling him the other. I asked when I could see him and he promised he would be in touch within the next. It’s now been another week and I’ve heard nothing. I’ve been tearful because feel she’s turned him against me and he believes her and now doesn’t want anything to do with me.
I replay the whole thing in my head every day and I question myself as to what I could of done or said to make her act like this. I don’tunderstand what’s she’s trying to achieve, why she made a move on me, I’m really confused by it all. Don't know what to do apart from discuss this with my dad and put things right.
I'm sorry to hear that you're going through all of this.
I think this is the time for your mom to tag in and talk with him. Let aside what happened, the truth is that you're his daughter and that link is not going to be broken by anything. His partner is, well... probably a temporary circumstance. Sadly, he has to learn the hard way that you should have priority and nothing should be between you and him.
You can also tell your dad that you know she's bi because she told you so. How would you know if she didn't tell you?
Try to look for facts that give proof of your story and keep a cool head. (I know it's hard, but it pays off)
Your dad's GF is so upset because she feels in the spotlight and, most probably, thinks that you're now telling everyone in the family about her sexuality. Those are also good points to bring to your dad's attention. At the end of the day, is his decision to stay with her or let her go. But he has to know the facts and how that can get in the way of the future of their relationship.
Please keep us posted.
Your dad's in a very difficult situation of his own making which is the first thing he needs to acknowledge. He'll eventually realize what sort of a person his GF is..exactly what she accused you of being..a liar and a manipulator. Who cares if she's bi, it's her actions during and afterward, which tell you who she is. In the meantime, you need to hold your head up and wait for your dad to put things right.
This is interesting and challenging. I like the idea you’re willing to fight for your Dad’s loyalty, respect, and trust. In the process I hope it doesn’t turn into your Dad having to choose between a girl friend and his daughter.
Perhaps we can try to understand the girlfriend’s response and reaction to you. It is probable she did not share with your Dad that she is bisexual and something like this has never happened before. This may explain the aggressive denial of her interaction with you. Although very inappropriate on her part to come on to you while in a monogamous relationship, I think she may be entitled to another chance to explain, for your Dad’s sake.
You question what you could have done differently in response to Dad’s girlfriend. Is it possible to approach her (with Dad’s permission) and go over the event with her again? Your Dad does not need to know the purpose of your meeting other than an attempt of reconciliation. Your approach needs to be non-threatening, non-judgmental, but assertive, and totally honest. The meeting should be confidential. Share your priorities and values with her which includes never hurting your Dad. Include her benefit from a monogamous relationship with your Dad that would be threatened with any relationship outside of his. Your sexuality does not need to be an issue if you choose. Finally, explain you hope to have a positive bond with her, but of course previous behaviors cannot be allowed. If she attempts with you or anyone else, you would have to share the behaviors with your Dad. Appeal to her self-interest in the relationship and that of the person she is involved with (Dad). She must think a lot of him to be in this relationship for year and a half.
This will take some courage, but relationships are usually worth the risk. Let us know how it goes.
The truth always comes out. It just takes time.
Know that and you will find peace .
Your father will discover everything about this girl that he needs to find out.
In the meantime step back and let him absorb everything.
I agree with everyone else's thematic comments but I'm unwilling to apply any generosity of thinking in terms of innocent mistake-making on her part because - let's just stand back and look at the actions:
At first she's shunning and cold-shouldering you, CLEARLY doesn't want you in the frame, 'cramping their style' (WHICH your father obviously notices or else he wouldn't have tried to manipulate a situation where you'd be on your own together for a protracted period). Evidently, the shunning and trying to make uncomfortable fails to work because, there you now are, 'pushing' to get her to engage with you - as indicates you hold the expectation of being included in their 'family unit' as a bona fide member, whereas she wants him and his attention solely and exclusively to herself. So (indicated by the instant track-change on her very immature part) she on-the-spot decides to try the opposite extreme of acting atrociously in a way that was obviously designed to freak you out, send you running, and understandably loath to be around her - ergo, around you dad - in future, any time SHE is, thanks to the resultant huge cringe-factor.
Damn right she's manipulative and controlling. Just not with your father. Not yet. Right now she'll be all sweetness and light and 'butter wouldn't melt' (the hook). This is the false advertisement and sample stage of that typically boundary-smashing type. But, like Susiedqq and the others suggest - he'll learn (or should I say, finally dare and feel free enough to admit it). It's inevitable (and usually kicks in at 18 months). And then he'll have some serious apologising and making it up with you to do, won't he. (And growing-up!)
I think right now he's thinking with his over-starved appendage, if you get what I'm getting at. You said yourself there wasn't much "how's yer father" with your mother. He'll need to get that starvation-based desperation out of his system before he'll admit there's little more than the present-day physical attraction aspect.
In the meantime, get out of her crosshairs so that only he's in them. That and giving him the floor to have as much unimpeded (cough) physical interaction with her as possible speed their demise up nicely (and you probably won't enjoy being around him while he's with and under the influence of someone like that, anyway). Trust me, the minute she feels her feet are 'safely under his table', the emotional abuse will start and his over-libidinous eyes will start to be knocked and shocked back open. And, fine if your mum insists on intervening (tick!) but you yourself should not have to do any running after him, nor explaining, nor self-defending. That's his job. Especially now.
It's called, give 'em (especially her) enough rope to hang herself with, since she's the hanging type.
PS: "You can also tell your dad that you know she's bi because she told you so. How would you know if she didn't tell you?"
Excellent observation by Silvarion, but leave that to your mum to point out.
Thanks for reading, I've been waiting to see if there was any improvement before I replied, there hasn't really.
It's been tough, even though my family and boyfriend say it won't always be like this forever, I'm finding it hard to believe. I personally think this has given my dad's girlfriend a real opportunity to dig her claws in to him and take full control. I even think she might of been plotting this for a while and has been waiting for the right moment came up.
I feel like being punished by my dad for what happened. The last time I saw my dad was nearly two weeks on his door step, since, after promising contact, he's made no effort to call or meet up and I'm still not allowed in his house. I'm so cross with him, it feels like he's taken her side, when he should no me better. He raised me, therefore he would know of any negitive characteristics I have, lying and making things up is none of them. My mum has talked to him and I know she would done her best for me but there has been no effect.
Im feeling quite down at the moment, I know this is what she wants so I try to rise above it but I'm so used to speaking or seeing my dad most days. It doesn't help that I walk past his house twice a day to and from work. Going to work is ok as it's a distraction but it's the walk home I dread as that's when it really hits me, more so if I know he's in and I've come home in tears a few times or full of rage.There is an alternative walking route but is a lot longer.
I have left my dad alone, to work this out for himself, but a good reason did come up talk to him. Me and boyfriend have been planning to move into rented accommodation and very recently we found somewhere. My dad has always said to us he would pay the deposit to help us out. I contacted my dad by email, after he didn't pick up the phone, he came back and said he would help but this meant he gave us a couple of hundered, we've had to find the rest but it's left us short. my mum tried talking to him again but she came away frustrated.
As for allowing her to explain her actions, maybe under different circumstantce I would but I don't trust her at all. Who's to say she wouldn't make up something again? I thought I had some idea of the sort of person she was but now its very clear she doesn't want me around. I don't even know how it would work if my dad started communicating with me and he still stayed with her.
Thanks for getting back with us. I'm sorry there has not been any reconciliation with your dad.....yet. Considering the inherent bond between a father and his daughter, a resolution to this conflict is inevitable.
I trust your assessment of your Dad’s girlfriend and her truthfulness or lack thereof. However, I’m still in the camp of communicating with her. You mentioned under different circumstances that may be in order. What are those circumstances? Currently, all else seems to have, at least temporarily, failed. So why not try to appeal to her best interest. Maybe her interest in your Dad is genuine and this is what is attracting him to her and her story. What puzzles me about this conflict is I have not been able to identify a direct threat to anyone. Why is everyone being so defensive? The girlfriend’s relationship with Dad is a compliment to a daughter’s relationship with Dad. It is called family. If the girlfriend is afraid of being bisexual and its temptation then that is where the dialog begins. Again, this is not about her or you, AMISTER, it is about both of you in different roles, both potentially necessary for the emotional health of your Dad.
8twenty8 thanks for the reply, and view on this.
Do you mean try a different tactic, as in do something she is not expecting? She's currently not allowing me in my dads house, that she doesn't pay a single penny towards. This is one way of her stopping the truth from coming out, as if I wanted to, I can't go round there all guns blazing. If she did allow me to talk to her then I would potentially risk her doing the exact same thing again and making the situation even worse, she's already done it once. Like I said I don't trust her.
I mean different circumstances whereby she would not of laid a finger on me, try to kiss me or make me out to be a liar. That in itself could of really screwed things up for myself and boyfriend but he's not questioned me once, he's very trusting and stilll wants to rent a place with me.
If it had been a normal disagreement then sure, I would consider talking it through with her but she went a step too far, where she knew what she was doing. I would find it very difficult to move forward with someone knowing this had happened.
I know I'm not getting very far with my dad at the moment and its come to a standstill but waiting Is the best thing to do.
Once again, I trust your judgement. You are much closer to this situation than me.
Were you threatened or do you currently feel threatened with her potential advance towards you? If this advance was by your boyfriend's male friend, how would you have handled it? Can you see this conflict ever resulting in a positive relationship with her? How? Since neither your Dad or his girlfriend are currently responding to you, have you considered writing a letter to both or either of them?
I respect your response to this. Another way to potentially feel better and put the conflict behind you, is to forgive her, and as you are currently doing, just wait it out. Thanks for keeping in touch. I wish the best for all concerned.
There are always two sides of every story. Firstly, it is important for you to understand that not everyone gets along. Your father's girlfriend seems to come from a background where grabbing what you can get is more important than preserving the good. I truly understand your frustration at this point of time, where you are being stone walled by your dad for something you didn't even do in the first place. And yes he is at fault for not being responsive or building a bridge amongst the new girl friend and his children.
But before all of that, it is important that you tread carefully at this point of time. There is no point of loosing your cool at him when he isn't going to listen to you at the moment. People tend to come around their mistakes in life. It may take some time but dont give up so easily. There is no point in waging war against him or playing the blame game at the moment.
It isn't really going to be possible for you to know your dad's girlfriends intentions and what she is plotting against him. But what you can do is to make sure that you don't get everyone involved and make this a impossible situation. Any chances of him wanting to come back to what he has broken will be lost. So as you mentioned above in the comments, waiting is the best thing you should be doing at the moment.
It is disgusting that this woman tried to kiss you and lied to your dad about it. But anyways stay away from her. Let your mum do the talking for the moment. He will listen to her more.
8TWENTY8, we're being logically 'defensive' because the OP and her previously solid relationship with her father is under severe attack, and now (thanks to her lying to his w*lly- sorry, to him) seemingly (repeat, seemingly) from he himself - simples! Not everyone in this world means well, or consistently so their entire life through - simples! Hence WHY there's a demand for forums like this one - [all together now...].
He's thinking with his rhymes-with-stick and is acting like a total desperado. He's willing to have his father-daughter relationship compromised, possibly seriously jeopardised, rather than dump or take this woman to task. He knows his daughter isn't a liar, he knows darn well. But he'd rather rely on - and DOES - his knowledge of his daughter's character (carer = patient/tolerant/forgiving) and the 'duty' intrinsic to their relationship, namely, eventual forgiveness on her part, than confront a lesser-trusted quantity (Mrs Manipulative) and risk rocking the lust-boat, meanwhile, selling himself a story that goes, 'Ah, but she might he JEALOUS of my new girlfriend; it does happen, you know!'.
She is SERIOUSLY manipulative (and he's seriously self-deluding as well a bit over-confident about his daughter's reliability of attachment and loyalty). All you have to do is imagine yourself in that entire scenario to feel how grossly inappropriately hostile and, frankly, downright MENTAL an act that entire-afternoon's stunt was. SHOCKING, in other words. In fact, I'd put it equal to that Ann character from Little Britain. You know the one. It involves poo and walls ("Eh-eh-eeeeeehhhh!"). That's the level I'd put it at. Degree-wise, so beyond any shred of decency and propriety, it enters the Insane domain.
We can surely tell from what AMISTER has since additionally reported re. 'no rent', when we add it everything else, that he's her golden goose. Now you can better appreciate why AMISTER would/could get in the way and needs expelling. I mean - WHY isn't she offering any contribution, what does she think she is - his wife already?! Is she doing 'wife'?....housekeeping in lieu?...and getting involved with all and everyone that means something to him? Clearly not or AMISTER wouldn't have felt the 'no rent' situation were an issue. With that 'normal decency' failure the case, you'd at LEAST expect her to want to compensate by doing merely the norm of trying GENUINELY to get along with his daughter and hence (wait for it) PLEASE him! So it and that O.T.T. display towards his daughter is part and parcel of the psychological package of her type: No conscience, no empathy, ability to tell outrageous, damaging lies, unbelievably extreme nerve and arrogance, ability to scrape the conduct barrel, unjustified, again, outrageous hostility (AMISTER didn't *do* anything, except try to MAKE FRIENDS, for goodness' sake!), no regard-..in fact, no CONCEPT of consequence.... an attempt- an alarmingly PREMATURE attempt at that! - to Isolate and Triangulate. (We know what all of that means, don't we, children.)
Seriously, anyone try to put themselves in the position of this (er) woman on that evening, alone with her new lover's grown-up child in what so obviously was meant to be a getting-to-know and bonding exercise. Hah. It blatently was more a getting-to-repel-and-KEEP-repelled exercise by-design.... the distinct opposite. Could you treat your new lover's daughter that heinously, offensively, shockingly? Even a soupcon of it? Or behave like that toward ANYONE, for that matter? Why WOULD you? HOW WOULD YOU DARE.
You wouldn't, NO MATTER WHAT "justification" in the form of pressures and duresses might be present at the time, like, totally brassic and needing your rent and food paid for you. No sane person would. That's more a scene from a warped version of Alice in Wonderland. And we all know what the Queen of Hearts was.
Or I could put it more diplomatically skilfully, like Harry just did: " Your father's girlfriend seems to come from a background where grabbing what you can get is more important than preserving the good. " But I ain't got time and, why go round the houses when identifying a problem is 99% of the solving but which relies on speed when one risks getting shot again and/or remaining feeling bad and confused for a minute longer than necessary. Just tell it like it is (and anyway, I've got Harry and the others to say it more prettily, haven't I, LOL. I'm perfectly okay with being Bad Cop.
The woman is behaving - alarmingly prematurely - like a Grade A classic case of someone with NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER (in the past, known more simply as shockingly selfish, self-centred, self-obsessed, morally corrupt,...EGOTIST; they're the same thing,...nothing more mystical or magical than that...only the label got upgraded). NPDs go farther, lower, louder, etc., etc., than the sane rest of us (alright, then - than you lot
). O.T.T. as well as Totally Unnecessary & Avoidable and seemingly nonsensical as well as ultimately self-sabotaging. Like we just 'saw'.
Yep, wait it out, AMISTER. These things are like zits. Bound to come to the surface - a case of When, not If. Stand well back or you're highly liable to get covered in pus, which could take YEARS to clean off. Plus, that's your dad's well-deserved reward! Why deprive him of or stall that Maths lesson he'll never forget nor repeat?
Maybe it's a case of, as well as fancying majorly, him looking for a cosh-on-legs because of secretly being long-term angry and/or frustrated with himself over something(s), feeling like he needs punishing yet not wanting to basically stand there, 'certifiably' punching himself over and over in the face? Or maybe he's re-enacting a past, major relationship (parental)? (That's usually the case.) To see if this time he can conquer, or find a way to strike lasting harmony...or at least just put that past issue and late-night brain-niggler to bed, so to speak? Certainly, if he were to fail with this present 'Another Version Of', he at least could be certain the state of whatever previous relationship wasn't ever personal, never about him being Less Than or Too Much or whatever he was made to feel (generally all his fault), and move on with his life? But AMISTER, if he's letting this woman (temporarily) drive a wedge between he and you then, possibly without even realising what he's up to - he might even, for all we know, be doing an unconscious, typically blokie face-saving version OF ensuring you stay out of the soon-to-be crosshairs, without any danger of your daring to step, unannounced, back into that ring?
After all, look at it this way: if your dad really, truly believed or even suspected (or even suspected was scope for) this woman were going to end up as part of his life for anything more than the short term, e.g. wife or 'wife', then - what man WOULDN'T be try-trying again to find a way to 'make' you both get on? *In that situation, it would be IMPERATIVE*. So - GOTTIM!
I'll bet the reason he hasn't approached you is because they're busy having barnie and aftermath after barnie and aftermath as we speak....busy-busy-busy! So just sit back and let him get her (and the ghost of her) out of his system.
I know events like this are highly upsetting, but they're not half as uncommon as you'd think. It just takes finding something to fill his gap so that you can give their already toxic relationship every chance to run its inevitably short-lived, rather messy course. Why not, therefore, see and treat this as your golden opportunity and catalyst to 'leave' your father for your boyfriend, get more stuck in, and thereby come to the inevitable reunion transformed into Once-Dad-Daughter But Now Especially Close Younger Friend-Older Friend? It's how the parental-child relationship should, if it's healthy thus on-schedule, begin to evolve into, anyway, at your age/stage.
Anyway, feel free to keep us all posted.
Thanks for your input, SOULMATE. As a Yank, I have some difficulty understanding some of your narrative. However, there is no question that you support the OP, as do I, and her temporary break from Dad.
What I have been trying to do in my posts is to get AMISTER to understand that her feelings (both positive and negative) are the product of how she interprets the people, events, and circumstances in her life. The benefit of this knowledge is to potentially change her unwanted feelings (anger, frustration, fear, or rejection) by challenging her interpretation of the conflict and events.
AMISTER is most likely accurate with her interpretation of what did and what is happening, as you may be. If, however, this pain and loss AMISTER is feeling, is overwhelming, perhaps we can lesson it by looking at other explanations.
I too am sorry that you are going through this.
I have not read all of the letters that have been written after your initial post, but my advice is to write out the facts of what happened, then write clear statements that explain how you feel about the entire situation.
The reason I want you to do this is so that you can give him a copy of the letter and then walk away knowing that you have done something solid about it. This way you will no longer be rehearsing what happened in your mind, and you will KNOW that you have done all that you can do.
Some people have learned how to control others in this world and I believe your father is under her control. What he needs is some incense burning to clear her spirit out of his system. He has to limit oil products and oily foods completely. He needs to go work out or go to a steam room, and or he needs to eat hot hot peppers. These kinds of activities will clear his senses.
There are some movies that will help you believe in what I am saying. MIB Men in Black, Scooby doo, Sharknado, Anaconda, Hocus Pocus, Witches of Eastwick, and the television show Charmed... just to name a few.
Your father is with a zombie, a bug, a witch, a snake, a shark... someone that lives off of the living, energy. As opposed to people like yourself that have purpose in life and enjoy all kinds of wonderful things that life has to offer.
Write the letter... and for your own sake hope that he makes the right choice sooner than later. Maybe at the end of the letter you can write your number and tell him that you will wait for his call, for as long as it takes.. you will be here for him.
Then that's it, you move on with your life. Love him, keep him in your heart and prayers... but do not let this take more away from you than it already has. The relationship WILL break down, its important that he know that you will be there with open arms and not I told you so's or anything that will bruise his ego more than this situation already is.
Oh, and stop repeating the incident in your mind... it will become harder to forget.
See no, hear no, speak no... evil.
The other alternative is to invite him to your home to talk, or just for a father daughter day and then burn the incense so that he cleanses, and then lay it all out on the table. Have the letter ready so that he can read it right then and there and then watch one of those movies or charmed episodes together so that he can see that there is something very real and powerful happening to him.
I hope that this helps out, please let me know if there is anything I can clarify.
(I'm sorry, but you can't reasonably lump yourself in with or draw comparisons with me at my level, tenure or performance track-record regarding obviousness of and/or confidence in trustworthiness of intention, so I'm rather taken aback that you'd even try. Furthermore, the only person with the right to thank someone for their input, without in the process coming across arrogant or self-aggrandizing, is AMISTER or myself as Moderator. But I'll put that down to 'lost in translation' this time.)
"What I have been trying to do in my posts"
And I'm saying, Please don't. Not here. (Right intention and methodology, Wrong Place/Case.)
There is no interpretation necessary in this instance thus no adjusting her set, either. There is no doing *anything* which ordinarily would work with a difficult relationship or relational difficulty between two people from the normal, healthy spectrum, both accordingly seeking - being GEARED to seek! - any kind of productive, healthy, win/win outcome. Obviously there are degrees, like with any spectrum, but full-blown types like this case specimen need win/lose...master-servant....captor-slave...torturer-victim....Your good is their fodder for evil. Because no pack mentality or humane goodness on that (er) woman's part exists, and causing potentially severe, long-lasting damage in her bid to socially climb and/or affect, produces a huge, sadistic thrill as well as sense of superiority justification and furtherance. So - Letter? Try 'transquillizer dart' and you'd be nearer the mark!
A letter to him, as TRULUV suggests, could work. But emphasis on 'could' because, being under her spell, he would probably, even unwittingly, even regrettably (argument) share its contents. Any sincere heart spillage and/or attempt to tittle-tattle or call to account gets used simply as future ammunition, the rule-of-thumb when 'operating with' this variety of Out Of Order individual being, 'Anything you say *will* be taken down and used against you at whatever point'. You have to - HAVE TO - know precisely what you're doing to take on a Narc or Psycho or Narcopath; it takes years of theory, experience, and practise, preferably first-hand as well as second- or third-. The letter would have to be expertly crafted to include as much DIS- or misleading information as possible in order to future wrong-foot or trap/reveal beyond redemption; you have to get down to their level and know how to fight really dirty. And better than they can.
Why bother unless you've the room and time to thus can speed up Old Father Time rather than wait patiently for him to go at his own pace. The (er) woman is *his* hair-shirt to wear. Not because he chose it, but because Fate ordered it in to crash-course/fast-forward him in regards to whatever adult social and self-protection tools are still missing from his toolbelt. In which case, these damaged individuals *do* serve a purpose: gym equipment for any under-used or downright flaccid mental muscles.
Normally healthy approaches would backfire, act as weaknesses, and lead to yet more damage. ...In which case, not 'most likely' - *definitely*. And all credit to her (Amister) for that incredible independence of mind and refusal to conform of hers.
Isn't it ironic that this attempt on your part to get to question and introspect, as would normally have me patting you on the back, in this case has me pulling you up for the fact that - in La-La Land your sentiments and recommended action get subverted, tantamountedly, to becoming a statement along the lines of, 'Perhaps Saddam *wasn't* using his wife as a human shield and just wanted to give her one last hug from behind before getting turned into a human Doily?'. I.e. contextually, you've gone from pragmatically empathetic to 'bleeding heart'. Welcome to the poor Narc Victim's World!!! So let's lay the blame for that 'invisible', automatic, seismic shift where it belongs, shall we - namely, with this (er) girl (er) friend.
In the meantime, because I do normally like your style and hard-work ethic, it would be ***really**** handy to this forum if you could gen up on NPD/ASPD/both (comorbidity known colloquially as Narcopath). But you don't have to if you don't want to because there thankfully are still many more 'normal' threads needing your input. In other words, you can remain cleaning the kitchen as I and other Narc-knowledgeable posters get lumped with the toilet.
Wow, lots of replies to read, that goes into a lot of really helpful detail.
8twenty8 in answer to your questions; yes I feel threatened by her right now and I don't feel like this is the end somehow, I'm waiting for her to strike again in some way, which is why I hesitate to approach her. If it had been my boyfriends male friend, I would of reacted in the exact same way, as I wouldn't do anything to jeopardise our relationship or hurt him. I understand that at looking at other explanations might be helpful, normally I would, as I'm not all black and white, but I can't see any grey in this situation, that would add up to her behaviour. As to ever having a positive relationship with her in the future, there wasn't one in the first place, and now, I would struggle if I'm honest. I found her difficult to read and didn't think she liked me, so I always approached her by being civil and polite towards her, which is how I've been brought up, as my dad would know! To forgive her, feels like the easy way out, I would want to mean it or I would feel uncomfortable with her going forward.
Harry888 I agree about not loosing my cool with my dad, it''s been hard not to , I have to admit but I know it would get me no where or do any good. Its been hard to tell my mum, stepdad and boyfriend to keep calm, they have all got angry on my behalf over the past few weeks, but I don't want their relationships breaking down with my dad too because of this one delusional person.
It's overwelhming in the sense that I want to be believed, and the anxiety that comes with that is huge. I haven't shared this with any friends or work colleagues, I don't anything to hide, it's the of the fear of being judged. It's quite a strange problem, even if it is actually common. All I see is her wanting to control my dad and have everyone close to him gone, possibly because she hates the fact that everyone gets along so well. She did say once, that she found it very strange that my parent, my step dad and younger sister has a good relationship with him. From remembering this comment, maybe she thought we should all be arch enemies, could this be her aim?
I have been distracted recently with packing to move and getting used to the idea of moving in with a boy, lol. My dad has recently coughed up the rest of the deposit money he had originally promised to pay, this was after an embarressing conversation with my boyfriends parents to see if they could help. I did called to thank my dad but all I could hear was his gf in the back ground being gobby, so the phone call was a quick one.
Yes, letter needs to be well executed! I recently attempted to draft a letter to potentially send to my dad, with help my boyfriend who has a degree in English and even he struggled. Nothing we came up with sounded right, it came across as accusing and angry, no matter how carefully it was worded it would of got very easily misinterpreted and I wouldn't of been happy handing it over to my dad. It's becoming more clear that waiting it out and carrying on with life is the right thing to do.
Correct. But meantime you need to gen up.
Start with Isolation Attempt. That'll answer your question re. WHY she wants you arch enemies or at least alienated. Basically because - you lot would be on-hand to give him reality-checks with which to counter the Gaslighting, Projection and Denial effects, etc., and keep him capable of self-defending through being confident of his stance and 'case' (i.e. he's *not* the mad one who's imagining behavioural signs and clues that she doesn't love him whatsoever).
Think of him as James Bond and yourself as Q, if it helps. You can be his secret weapon...his Constant. He's not 'not loving you' or 'loving her more' - he's had his ability to 'run that programme' disabled.
So it's really not personal, not even toward him. Just feels like it because you're the ones left dealing with the damage, mess and chaos these types leave in their wake. But already she's controlling him because he didn't do what was his right in that situation to do, which is, 'Do you mind not interrupting when I'm on the phone with my daughter?' or taking the phone and your conversation out of her earshot and reach. Hence, the conversation, during which your bond would have got re-strenghtened, couldn't be completed (aim, fire, bullseye!).
Call him again - at your non-usual time or, preferably, when he's at work. Say, 'I can't talk now, and obviously neither can you, but, we didn't ...er... get to finish our conversation so, just to say - call me when you get a ....ummm....QUIET AND PRIVATE MOMENT'. And then during that subsequent call, just tell him outright that if he ever needs to...um... ask you anything or get your opinion on anything, he can.'. If he doesn't cotton-on at that point and asks what you mean, 'Sorry, dad, sorry-sorry, gotta go, speak later, byee!'. The intrigue at least, will get him ringing you again, first chance he gets. And then take it from there.
Welcome back, AMISTER. Yes, it appears you are quite popular or perhaps we are all quite opinionated. However, you have operated with much thought and feeling about potential consequences from your actions without our input. Good for you.
It still concerns me that you feel overwhelmed and anxious about your believeability and that you may be judged by this. Does it help to know that every post to your problem has believed you?
I have found much respect for you in your response to me regarding forgiveness. In order for it to be real and stress reducing, it must be felt as authentic to you. That means you cannot hold the girlfriend’s behavior against her ever again, nor bring it up in an attempt to embarrass or to minimize her, or to strengthen your position. That will take courage and incredible resolve. I’m glad you recognize that and understand if it is ever given, it is quite a gift!
I called him back, a few times ended up telling him over voice mail I wanted to continue our conversation privately but he never called back. I moved into my new place recently and after a few days recieved a phone call from my dad. It was a good and what I thought was a private conversation. He said he wanted to come round and see the house, I said of course and that I'd really like to see him. But he asked if his girlfriend could come too, to which I told him under the circumstances, I didn't think that was a good idea, so no. He got angry with me saying I was being very unfair and that she even went out and brought a house warming card and present, I dread to think what the present could of been tbh! He then told me he wasn't coming with out her, they come as a couple. Then girlfriend came on the phone and starts shouting at me so loudly that I couldn't take in what she was saying. In the end my boyfriend took my mobile off me and told her very simply he was ending the call because he wasn't going to tolerate her shouting at me. Boyfriend is now exstreamly protective, doesn't want her anywhere near me or the house.
I now feel worse then before, and I feel guilty, I don't know if this was a missed opportunity. Does buying a card and house warming present sound like some sort of game into tricking my dad she is trying to be nice or is she actually being genuine ? I'm questioning what happened here because whilst I rather her voice an applogy to me, I can't help but think there might of been a written applogy in that card? Or she might of said sorry if I allowed her round. Was I wrong?
Opportunity Missed - DEFINITELY YES
I understand that things haven't been the way you would ideally want it but the fact that someone is ready to take a step forward, you should have definitely considered that before reacting back to him. Also this time your father was going to be with her while visiting you, so there was no way she could fool around. Now you've given them a reason to backfire at you. More so, its going to take a lot of convincing to mend your relationship with your father. Isnt mending your relationship with your father more important ? You need to understand that its your father's choice to choose to be with the person he likes. SO when you invite him, automatically the other half will come along. You have to find a way to deal with her, but you can't say that your father come alone and leave her behind.
Your argument about forgiving what she has done in the past, ofcourse not. She is not forgiven of all whatever she has done. But there is a time and place for doing all of this. What is the point of further ruining your relationship with your father by reacting in such a way. Would you like it if some did the same back to you ? I understand that you have been shaken up by the last time you'll met. But time has passed by, you could have taken loads of precautions this time. This time you would have been much more prepared than before. Your boyfriend could have been with you when they were visiting.
Expecting them to apologize is something you have to get realistic about. You will need to introspect about the things that are more important to you.
Hi AMISTER. So the saga continues. It appears someone needs to be the adult in the room. So far it appears to have been you and it is becoming painfully obvious, it needs to continue to be you.
I understand you want to reconcile with your Dad, but speculating and feeling guilty about what might have been, may not be helpful. If it was a missed opportunity and Dad is trying to reconnect, he will attempt again. I mentioned previously, a father/daughter relationship does not expire easily.
Perhaps we can continue to look at your options. I like the idea you are proactive in trying to continue the conversation with Dad but under your terms and conditions. It shows intent and implies forgiveness, therefore, reducing their defenses. I seem to recall you are not allowed around their home either. You might remind them of this. You might also point out that the yelling at you by the girlfriend is exactly what you wish to avoid by meeting Dad alone, initially.
Finally, I remind you of the forgiveness that gives you the freedom to approach your Dad and girlfriend without the “baggage”. This does not mean your forget and put yourself in a compromising position, but permits the ceasefire without anger, frustration, distrust, and misgivings on your part. You cannot control their feelings, only yours. I’m not sure I could do what I counsel, but then I’m not you.
Sorry, but I don't think *anyone* could reasonably blame you for not wanting to be in the same room as a woman who behaved towards you so - scuse French - mind-f*ckingly! Amister, you reacted normally and naturally and perfectly healthily to what is a very unnatural and abnormal situation THANKS SOLELY AND EXCLUSIVELY TO HER.
Your father wants you to bend over backwards to compensate for the fact that this woman is bent over forwards (BECAUSE HE CAN'T HANDLE HER!). *No*. The woman should learn to behave around civilised humans like the adult she's supposed to be or accept THE CONSEQUENCES of their not wanting to put themselves through what was, let's face it, a MINI TRAUMA!
You have done nothing wrong except for what any sane, reasonable person in your enforced position without your usual protector (because he's temporarily resigned) would have done: PROTECTED YOURSELF. That's why boyfriend stepped in - he's occupying the vacated desk (good on him!).
This is not your poo on the carpet to clean up, it's hers. The fact she moved so swiftly to shouting at you, i.e. ripped the mask off the minute she wasn't getting her way/her plan wasn't succeeding, just PROVES that that instinct of yours not to let her within 10 feet of you WAS CORRECT and that NO, SHE WAS *NOT* GENUINE.
You do NOT have to find a way to deal with her - HE DOES. And then when he dumps her - she does. Only they can't. They're pathological (means incurable).
Trust your boyfriend. Even if your father had been there, and your boyfriend, her reactive switchover during said call proved it would have been a FAKE SHOW. Furthermore, that phone conversation was her perfect chance to not only say sorry but show she meant it. So who *cares* what outright lie might have been in that card. It was all just manipulation.
Your father has chosen to take up residence in La-La Land with that GLARINGLY OBVIOUS NPD with boobs. That's *his* choice. But when his choice threatens your welfare to that incredible degree - LEAVE HIM TO IT.
I repeat: these Manipulationships have an unavoidable, inevitable shelf-life. Because Narcs can't do anything beyond Honeymoon period (like the emotionally 10-year-olds and under they are). Let him learn.
That you're such an Empath you'd feel responsible thus allow your own guilt to turn on - for not being able to be The Fixer, as per - is precisely what in La-La Land goes from a strength to a weakness.
Have you tried researching this and other Cluster B mental illnesses on YouTube? You'll find her described there, trust me on that.
PS: Well done for trying, but you've had all the proof you need now. Normally I'd say, best of three, but you've had two *giant* proofs, have you not, which equals six.
Ignore dad, focus on boyfriend, he sounds like a sweetie.
PPS (sorry - last one): think of it like this:
Dad bought a cream cake. It looked lovely...really delicious. Only it was riddled with Salmonella. He's in the loo, projectile puking his guts up but during the intervals, taking more bites. You go in there and you're going to get covered by whatever degree in puke. That won't help him. It certainly won't help you. What would be the bleedin' (or rather, pukin') point?
Go to ground. If your dad wants to chase you back - he's a big boy, I'm sure he knows how.
By the way, what did your mum have to say when you told her this latest?
(Scopester, feel free to give me hell for breaking my own rule and rapid-firing.)
Oh yes the saga continues! I have made a few decisions since last time. Reading everyone's recent replies, having a heart to heart with my mum and doing a bit of youtubing together , it's become more clear to me. Before I couldn't read read this women but now I've got some useful insight into the personality she has!
-I'm going to leave my dad to work this out for himself. This is going to be really hard but currently I feel hugely let down by my dad and I don't have a lot to say to him. Anger is a good thing in some way. I will surround myself with other family, friends and boyfriend, enjoying being in my new home.
-I'm going to stop questioning myself on this I know what happened but Soulmate is right, the situation is so abnormal a lot of people would. It is what my dads girlfriend wants and the more I do judge, the more I make it easier for her to control the situation even more. So enough is enough.
- I'm going to shut down anything spiteful that is thrown at me if it happens again.
- forgiveness can wait its not the right time yet.
Do I now think this was a missed opportunity? No. I appreciate other people's opinions and who think I have of missed this but like 8twenty8 pointed out, I'm still currrently not allowed in my dads house, it's not her house yet he still allows this rule to exist. It works both ways, if I allowed her into my new home that would make her feel more powerful and more in control. At the time I didn't have a chance to step back at think because she was shouting and swearing at me down the phone. I was angry at my dad for not calling privately after asking him to when alone and he then allowed her to take over the phone AGAIN, says it all really. Its clear she can't compermise and gets angry very quickly, again not the first time.
An alternative would of been to meet outside our homes but I can quite safely say she wouldn't of gone with this if is was offered. I still reckon I would of got the verbal abuse because that wouldn't of beeen what she wanted as in her present and card wouldn't of got given.
My dad did text after the phone call saying he was 'very disappointed' in my boyfriends reaction to his girlfriend, which is laughable because all my boyfriend said to her was 'I'm not torlerating you shouting down the phone to *me* like this, I'm now ending the call', that was it, he's not stupid he knew not to argue with her. She's obviously twisted his words and now making him out to be the bad guy.
Like I said I had a heart to heart with my mum about this, she helped with the decision I made. I would say she's hugely frustrated, and wants to find a solution . I'm so pleased she's behind me on this, if she thought I was being unreasonable in anyway she would say, but she pointed out to me that no one disbelieved me and who believes her? No one. We think even my dad is struggling.
Good on ya - eyes wide open! (And yes, he is (starting to) struggle. The fact he 'appealed' to you, despite was exactly the wrong and unacceptable form of "Help me by bending over backwards!" shows so. Correct again.)
And for the viewers at home, let's just simplify events to-date:
1. You're manipulated (in ambushed fashion) by your father into being alone with this woman to 'fix' the 'curious' problem of she and you, both, 'being incapable of knowing how' to make the first move towards forging a bond, rather than unwilling, rather than there being a problem afoot. (And if he's never contrived like that or to that degree before then we can bet it was her great idea in the first place as a solution to the fact it 'wasn't down to her, but you...maybe she and you just needed Girl Time alone?'....seriously, this is how pre-meditatively machinating they can be.)
2. Once alone, she slaps your face hard. You stand your ground. So then she kicks you hard in the crutch. (What does that say if not, "I don't like you so the size of THAT should make you p*ss off permanently!"?)
3. You accordingly very sensibly and survivalistically flee and vow never to give her that opportunity again. Furthermore, as part and parcel of that vow - because the event was really quite shocking and lastingly impactful (mini-traumatic) - you're not ready to face your abuser yet, regardless of any other parties or potential protector(s) present. SO THAT'S HOW MINI-TRAUMATISED YOU WERE - EVIDENCE IN THE FORM OF ACTION-ACTION-ACTION! (this case, RE-action). (And PS, your reaction's extent matched the incoming 'assault', there is absolutely *nothing* wrong with you and everything right! WELL DONE.)
4. You're asked to do so - be in the same room as this obvious predator - by the woman's boyfriend/your dad. You say, No thank-you, but I'd still like to see you, Dad. A perfectly reasonable request/insistence, given the prior event and present circumstance.
5. Again, in effect - in response, this woman rushes over and slaps you hard across the face. Your boyfriend can tell so steps in to the rescue (tick!). And then, in response, her boyfriend/your dad turns to you (TO YOU!) and says, 'For goodness' sake, why can't you just do as she wants so that she won't keep slapping your face and humiliating you (and vicariously, mine and me)?!'.
Ber-bom. But then he is... very...veyyyy....DJJRUNK (mentally self-manufactured high I call Love Heroin but, her being a Love Bomber, *way* above normal dosage and potency, meaning, his powers of perception and normal judgement are UCKED!).
Definitive evidence: Where in any of the behaviour she's been displaying since that one-on-one can anyone pinpoint that of a genuine ADULT!
Grown, sane adults do not (this case, psychologically) assault their new-ish partner's child (age immaterial), full-stop, in any way, full-stop. Let alone that unconscionably and outrageously.
My personal suspicion is, she's a Narcopath. Psychopath (Antisocial Personality Disorder) co-morbid with Narcissism (Narcissistic Personality Disorder), i.e. the two together PLUS how each interact together ("oh, great"). Aka Emotionally Retarded and lacking Empathy and with Sadistic tendencies. I realise some past victims might disagree with that, based on the fact she's not been subtle thus supposedly clever whatsoever, when they usually are, BUT... you're not the target. And you were alone behind closed doors with no outside witness(es). Shout at you in front of Love-Drunk him she can just get away with. Assault or Sexually Re-Assault you? - nope.
You're the potential supporter (and link to his ex, your mum) that she just can't afford to have hang around. If he gets support, he borrows strength. And strength is what you need when it comes to saying things like, 'For the 50th time - NO. And I'm not going to discuss it again, it's my right to say No and I say No. Sorry, but - End Of', when they're trying to trespass/crash through yet another personal boundary, such as: 'Assuming it couldn't reasonably hurt you for me to do so, it is my right and privilege or, this case under the recent circumstances, *duty*, to be able to see my daughter any time I like and alone if I or she so wish or need or deem necessary for whatever universally acceptable reason'.
She's managed to convince him this natural, rightful privilege of his (and yours) is somehow in whatever way(s) an insult to her if he insists on keeping it instated, now that they're in a romantic relationship. *Ergo* the invitation-acceptance condition included her to begin with. He *is*, therefore and however, 'allowed' to see you if she's present (to monitor, supervise, regulate, inhibit, LIMIT AND, THEREBY, DISTANCE/WEAKEN your mutual bond and trust).
What also alerted me is that she waited until you had no witness(es) present, making it a case of your word against hers in terms either of it having happened at all, in terms of how *you* saw or told it, and/or to the degree of seriousness you claim. Or there's just enough twisting of the context and content (and the timing and order of delivery, etc.) to give the whole story a whole different slant thus ultimate meaning and gravitas. SPIN.
With him, she'll have been Love Bombing, being as sweet as pie, for all she's worth. Or has started to drop her act and fake standards **only too recently for him to have caught up with the programme, the reality as it is today and s*d yesterday and the day before. And because during yours and her interactions she's, in his eyes, going all the way from (still perceived as) sickly-sweet angelic, all the way over to (prime e.g. this phonecall) toxic banshee, which is "JUST SO UNLIKE HER!" as well as so extreme per se - that chasmic shift somehow (when you've been primed, like your dad, to be blinkered and delusional) becomes justification towards defence of her case. In other words, she's not normally so 'out of order', come 'out of her tree'...so unreasonable, irrational and worked-up (or hair-triggered), *ergo*, this seismic anomaly must just reflect the size of her upset! The situation and its harbinger (you) upset her "THIS MUCH". So, as she's not normally unreasonable or over-reactive (**or didn't used to be when first Love Bombing, which giant rose-tinteds have yet to begin dropping off his face), the situation and its harbinger *WAS* HUGELY UPSETTING, *FACT*...with you and what you said/did being the source.
Now you're the Perpetrator and he's officially, in that instance, not just the main target-victim (i.e. her current, main source and focus of Narcissistic supply), but a Flying Monkey, stupidly *helping* the Narc to further victimise the already victimised individual (you). And all because he cannot (because it's too soon) face the, comparatively-speaking, mind-f**king thought then realisation, that "his angel" might actually be nothing like, might be the opposite, because it would have to mean, "'E woz CONNED!!!".
"WHO - *ME*???? I'M NOT STUPID! SO I WAS *NOT* CONNED, SO..."
Get it? You ought not take it as a sign he loves her more than you, blah-blah, because it's nothing more insulting than the 'piece of bacon in the pocket' trick - "Here, puppy-puppy....to me [not her]!".
This female Con Artist of the Romantic variety (i.e. dangles Love Quick Scheme in place of Get Rich Quick Scheme because latter risk the slammer but the former doesn't) feels threatened and is jealous of *you*. Not jealous in the normal, emotional sense. But the conscious one: HER PROPERTY/OBJECT AND TERRITORY! He'll have waxed lyrical over you to or in front of her as well as, her just having been able to tell from how you were around one another how close you were. You're her competition and potential rescuer/strength-giver of his, ergo, her potential thwarter and enemy. You must be eliminated.
He's a grown adult. Adults rescue their offspring, not the other way around. *Adults* rescue other adults. You're not even his rough age-contemporary. So you're not qualified and it's unfair to place the task-based burden of a mature, experienced adult onto the shoulders of anyone outside that description. Okay?
If this woman had been nothing but sweetness and light to you and/or done utterly nothing to warrant your wanting and needing to give her a very wide berth from now and until such time as you decided otherwise because you felt capable - THEN he and she would have a point and a reason to rear up and try to make you feel guilty or wrong! Although, they wouldn't. They'd only have the right to ask for a calm, quiet, civil, sit-down talk with you, *with your mother present*. That's what *adults* do: earn your trust the right way as well as earn it *back* the right way. He maybe *used* to be an adult but has since been infected as well as forced into an ongoing-ly inebriated state, making him think and act like a thwarted kid, too.
Next time you speak to him, I suggest you say, 'I've decided - no pocket-money this month for YOU!'. (Nah, don't. But you get my drift.)
The above is not to enlighten you, so much. It's more to show you how spot-on your instincts then easy understanding of all the theory you and your mum have crammed, you are. And I think it's wonderful to have this 'set of dumbbells-on-legs' to share and grow bigger mental muscles to, you and your mother. It'll repair the past, situationally-caused bonding damage/weakening I suspect went on, as had you feeling closer to your father than your mother in the first place.
This will be helping your mother complete her recovery or bulk up for her next life challenge, whatever it may be, as well.
Were you by any chance equally close to both because you didn't want to take sides or weren't aware there were any need to view that marriage in such stark terms as Black & White / 'sides'? Because by the way and style your mum's been behaving, versus how your dad has, I think it's a case of: Bit of a Romantic Bully attracts Huge Romantic Predator. You see? Big bullies sometimes bully little bullies...bully-ettes. All it takes it one being convinced they're bigger, better, stronger and tougher and cleverer than the other - generally all-round superior - and - any victim type will do. Even one that once chose to become a bully in order to escape ever again being a victim. In other words, your dad isn't a real one. SHE IS.
The ironic thing is, this is THE one domain in life where 100% Gender Equality actually genuinely exists and operates naturally-automatically (LOL). Probably *not* something your Feminists would wish to highlight or celebrate, though, eh. LOL "Rah-rah-rah, women for Narcissistic Personality Disorder, rah-rah-rah!". Nope...Can't see it meself.
PS: The solution is: stay away 'until'. He's missing out on a chunk of your young adulthood whereas - since he's not going to be pleasant to know for a while yet, anyway - all you're missing out on is A BULLET. *However*, as he's acting out of victimhood, what you *can* do is just post a letter or send an email to his place of work (whatever she can't or won't think to snoop on) to let him know that if ever he needs you, your opinion or shoulder, he knows where you are and can just call you. But, Amister, he has to call you, okay? And obviously out of earshot of her to prove he's ready for any support and encouragement towards the healthier choice.
PPS: Question: You've been to school (I can tell, LOL - good, aren't I!
)... You'll remember having had playground confrontations in whatever Year at Middle School or Secondary... WHAT AGE WOULD YOU PUT THIS BULLY AT? Fourteen? Fifteen? ....Ten, Eleven?
PPPS: Another question: Have you and mum thought to investigate on-the-quiet her background yet, e.g. criminal check, financial history (any company bankruptcy, for example)?