Fiance messaging female co-worker
Until last month, I thought everything was great in our relationship. Then one day when I was going to work, my h2b said he was having friends around that day. I asked who and then he mentioned a male colleague (who I'm aware of but have never met) and a female colleague who i have never even heard him speak about!) Initially felt uneasy about it but accepted that it's perfectly fine to have female friends but just thought it strange that she was close enough to invite over and yet her name had NEVER been mentioned. Anyways, despite initially thinking I was okay about it, at work I had a bit of a meltdown and realised I felt very uneasy about essentially a strange female being in my house which I very much see as my sanctuary. Then I started beating myself up for thinking and feeling like this but then rationalized the best way forward was to be open with my other half and explain how it had affected me, and made me insecure. This was pretty much brushed off and I was told I was being silly.
So here we are a month later, seemingly back to normal and her name hasn't been brought up again until last night. My other half was on his phone last night, I went to stand up from the sofa but fell back down, inadvertently caught a glance of his screen on the way down but noticed he quickly came out of the screen and on to Facebook. Later, I couldn't resist looking, so asked to borrow his phone and went for a little snoop...
she had messaged him asking what he was up to and he told her he had just got out of the shower. She responded "take a pic", he basically says "no I'm naked lol" and they then discuss if they have ever done this before. Both say they haven't but apparently my other half would like to do this... She asks if he'd like to have videos of him having sex... he says it's something he'd like to do (news to me!). He then asks about the first time she had sex and then tells her about the first time we had sex (we have been each other's firsts) and he knows my thoughts about sex being special and between two people, so the fact he is talking to a stranger (to me anyway) about this is a kick in the gut!
Anyways, I confronted him and asked him how appropriate he thought that conversation was. He Just brushed it off as a joke (im still waiting for the punch line!) and said sorry. So here I am after a sleepless night wondering if I've overreacted or if this kind of contact is inappropriate.
Inappropriate? Yeah,I'd say off m
She must know about you, right? Then why the seducing of an engaged man? .
Did you have pre- marriage counseling?
Your guy doesn't seem ready to get married.
He is cheating
He is wrong. He has no respect for you or your relationship. Forget the fact of you being insecure...it’s not about that, it’s about respect! How would your mother feel if she saw him doing that? If you asked him, Would you be mad if you knew your dad was doing that to your mom? It’s disrespectful, disgusting and disgraceful not only to you but your values as a person. You don’t want to marry someone who shows you no respect. A man who loves you would treat you the way he would want his mother or daughter to be treated. If you stay with him, there will be different women in your life.
God opens doors for you but you need to know which ones to shut and this one needs to be shut....This is bad bad bad....in 25 years from now...you’ll be in a much worse situation if you decide to stay...kids and a cheater and who’s never home bc he’s “working” ... it you can make the right decision and even though it’s hard at first, it won’t be permanent. Leave while you have no attachments.
Count me in.
Lionessa (and anyone else in your boat),
It was MEANT to make you insecure.
Now note how you were right/what you've seen with your own eyes. SO IT WASN'T INSECURITY AT ALL, WAS IT. IT WAS YOUR FEMALE INTUITION. Never doubt it again please/thank-you!
'Not every cheater is a Narcissist [Cluster B], but every Narcissist is - given the opportunity - a cheater'.
This making you insecure is what his type do: provoke an (negative) emotional state - in this case, HUGE - and then start having a go at you/punishing you/belittling and patronising you for acting accordingly (reacting normally to an abnormality) while denying and lying. It comes under Gaslighting.
IMO, this one's a (domestic type/little-pond) Psychopath, as such, naturally a Malignant Narcissist as well. But scratch all that over-stylized, over-exaggerated film and media crud about them (most don't kill ...if not pushed).
Most mere Narcs or Sociopaths, Histronics, Borderlines (basically, "Cluster Bs"
will either genuinely or pretentiously go into a Narcissistic Rage (- as it sounds..although it can be quiet and cold) if ever 'criticised or attacked' - i.e. complained to, confronted, called to account, cornered, asked to see to a need or right of yours, not his...just plain bothered when they don't want to be...
Not this boy. Unruffle-able. 'Don't be silly'. Twice in close succession. Flaunting the evidence (yes he did - he was the one pointed her existence out to you and 'said' Follow her tail!) and leaving a trail of breadcrumbs. Twice in close succession. And most have incredible difficulty uttering the S-word. (Between-the-lines -) he said it easily (completely lied).
(You were probably supposed to have left work to rush home, fyi.)
He didn't even try to delete or hide the evidence on his gadget. Nor even act panicked and blurt some excuse against there-and-then handing it to you. He gladly handed over the source/location of your Evidence Item 1 (- again, after having merrily alerted you to this other woman's existence and 'value' to begin with, so that you *would* start to watch out for more.......You were set up).
You may not have seen his screen at that precise point, had you not lost your balance. But he obviously was doing it right beside you. So the point is, he wanted you to see it so it was only a matter of time that evening/the next.
And GIANT-NOTE how he subtly cues and encourages, ie. manipulates HER during a written recorded exchange, to appear to be the hunter-chaser of poor wickle helpless target him....she Tarzen, he Jane ("It wasn't me, she was the one messaged me [he told her to] and kept trying to tempt my d*ck, I'm only human, a red-blooded male!"
. By the time he switches to questioner, it's because it's too late anyway, the crucial first picture evidence exists too overridingly. From that, she's apparently as much a victim/puppet of his lies and manipulations as you.
But I can tell how intelligent and normally level-headed you yourself are: you haven't shown the slightest bad attitude towards her and are indeed making him alone take the stand for his crime (tick!). However,...
1. He doesn't want you finding out enough to dump (check!).
2. He just wants you nearly-finding out/believing you've found out, enough to panic and worry (check!) for long enough that you start to play puppet to his puppetmaster. **Paralysed.
(Compare his actions against those two measures and see how they match and suddenly make sense.) He wants you to forevermore to remain in the horrible mental state of giant suspicion (etc.) with said lack of degree adequate either for remedying the 'relationship problem' or even rescuing yourself from a life of mental paralysis.
That's why to your head he verbally says, Don't be silly, whilst BEHAVIOURALLY saying to your heart, You're not being silly - look at me cheating. Gaslighting (and that's the biggest form). They do something however unacceptable-->unconscionable in plain view and then deny it happened. Your 'outer, wishful-thinking human' says he's not cheating whilst your 'inner, take-no-prisoners animal' knows he is - let inner conflict - Cognitive Dissonance - the most hateful, lethal/murderous aspect of relationship abuse - commence. In short, your two 'brain halves' beat each other up. Daily. And you're no longer a whole person, you're two half, tiny, confused-as-uck people. Your board of directors/duo of jury members have been locked in a Hung Jury situation. ....Over enough years, you start to go mad from this bonafide Intelligence-level torture tactic campaign.
And now note how he's not said not to be silly before adding how he promises not to have anything to do with her any more (in preference to his cherished Love-of-life worrying and being tense all the time - as is supposedly never considered fun for a normal healthy male partner)? So he's managed to position you (ongoing conflicted state of unproveable and undisprovable suspicion of her being his mistress) and he's managed to position her (ongoing conflicted state of unprovable and undisprovable suspicion over his ever leaving you). I can tell he's done that because he's doing what should offend his new lover/lover-to-be: talking about you, even intimiately-sexually. Yet she's not offended. No....You aren't, usually, in a situation where the guy's convinced you his relationship's been dead for so long that his mad, cheating, beating 'wife' doesn't give a stuff what he does or doesn't do any more, and they only still live together until they can sell the home/whatever lie. Seeing it now? She can bring herself to behave like this because you're hateworthy (so he says). It's called Triangulation and Demonization.
The physical, serial-killer/game-hunter version of this overall campaign is known as Lollipop-ing. DON'T go Google - it's basically where your lower spine is severed, instantly paralysing you from the neck down. A head on a stick. **Paralysed.
(Oh, yeah, peeps. I've said it before and I'll say it again about committing adultery (marriage is a heart decision, not a bit of paper). There is your spouse stabbing you to death with a 12-inch knife to the heart and then there is your spouse *psychologically* stabbing you to death with a 12-inch knife to the heart and - because there's no real blood - twisting it. It may not prove fatal but the intent is there. You hand him(/her) your heart...and instead of taking incredible care of precious it - the thing that makes him most happy in the world - he stabs it and twists. What's not Murder about Spiritual Murder? If you ask me, the physical kind is easier and more merciful.)
But the original upshot is that this one's TOO SMOOTH, TWO MULTI-LEVELLED! AND TOO IMMEDIATELY EXTREME. The bases for my suspicion.
IMO, as I'm sure you can now start to appreciate, he doesn't want to marry you and only ever wanted you to think he did. He'd be happy staying as cohabitees, getting a steady stream of your attention (treating him like your husband but for no wifely perks) and whatever else he wants, as all he's after is a whole harem or adding to his existing, long-term ongoing one. (He's too polished, you see, meaning he's done this too many times.)
(You've done nothing wrong, btw, you've been romantically conned like too many these days.)
If he had any genuine issue like a genuine/normal man and lover, he'd have sat you down. Same goes for the golden opportunity to back out of marrying you if that was what he so badly wanted. HIS ISSUE is wanting to avoid sitting you down so as to bypass any rightful protest and boundary fortifying of yours. This is purely treating you and all women like an object....an ego-pumping toy (and piggybank, usually) in his quest to be Hitler to your Germany.)
Another defining psychopathic action, in my experience/learning: All other Cluster Bs start to introduce the (giant MCP) bad attitudes and behaviour in tiny boundary-testing portions...experimenting with dosage and type. This 'guy's' Aperitif, look, is GOING FOR THE JUGULAR! And that's because you had basically (believing he was a legitimate sane-person) already made it crystal clear where that especially sensitive Achilles Heel of yours was: 'he knows my thoughts about sex being special and between two people'. (Yes he does and that's why the user/psychological throat-slicer used and sliced that exposed, already extended neck of yours.)
So there was no starting out small/slow/cautiously here, was there. Because - '[I thought] everything was great in our relationship'. No genuine relationship goes from Heaven to Hell in 0-60 like that. Only whatever kind of giant-Narcissistic one. And again, '60' this early on (in terms of his not yet being SAFE to dare poo via you locked into the relationship) is usually something like whoops-SORT-OF-or-nearly-forgetting your birthday or suddenly starting to 'forget' to put the bins out or just Narc Raging at you followed by Silent Treating during what should have been a normal, short-lived 'bit of a bicker or at-loggerheads'. 'Pettier' stuff that GROWS to this more extreme level.
Another: only a monster could counter such an obvious (whether hidden/tempered or not) sense of world-shattering upset in a woman due automatically to the devastating gravity of her question/suspicion - WITH HUMOUR! And belittlement (you're silly) - as Dismissal. Nor full-stop-ing the discussion (Stonewalling). Nobody sane and healthy gives that seriousness of event the brush-off. (He may as well have just said, 'I don't give a sh*t how you feel about it, I just want you to react to it and adjust yourself (to my advantage) because of it'.)
His reaction (aside from Inappropriate Affect) is called being Glib...what a psycho does best.
It was never a romantic relationship. It was a fairly long con by a small-scale con man (The Bank Of The World Of of Romantic, Mushy Women (& Men)). They either want your soul or your wealth/share your livelihood for-free, usually both, usually gradually over time *OR* within mere months. Yours wants the former. You'll be Wife No. 1. And then he'll have about 3 other wives and god knows how many concubines. Never ending attention, false aggrandization, cash cows to ride on as he squirrels his own dosh and theirs, and whatever else.
AND THIS ONE'S TOO SMOOTH. BY FAR. To be that smooth...that smugly confident...so self-controlled.. takes a heart that's STONE COLD.
Psychopath (aka Dark Triad) - go google or try this: https://psychopathyawareness.wordpress.com/tag/dumping-a-psychopath/
Or this: https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199401/charming-psychopath
"Psychopaths have a narcissistic and grossly inflated view of their own self-worth and importance, a truly astounding egocentricity and sense of entitlement, and see themselves as the center of the universe, justified in living according to their own rules. "It's not that I don't follow the law," said one subject. "I follow my own laws. I never violate my own rules." She then proceeded to describe these rules in terms of "looking out for number one."
"Lack of Remorse or Guilt
Psychopaths show a stunning lack of concern for the effects their actions have on others [check!], no matter how devastating these might be [check!]. They may appear completely forthright about the matter, calmly stating that they have no sense of guilt [check!], are not sorry for the ensuing pain [he won't reassure or put you out of your misery so - check!], and that there is no reason now to be concerned [check!].
When asked if he had any regrets about stabbing a robbery victim who subsequently spent time in the hospital as a result of his wounds, one of our subjects replied, "Get real! He spends a few months in hospital and I rot here. If I wanted to kill him I would have slit his throat. That's the kind of guy I am; I gave him a break."
Their lack of remorse or guilt is associated with a remarkable ability to rationalize their behavior, to shrug off personal responsibility for actions that cause family, friends, and others to reel with shock and disappointment. They usually have handy excuses for their behavior, and in some cases deny that it happened at all."
....And then you'll actually be dead. From cancer or something. From having lived in Fight or Flight (Rollercoaster) mode too often for too many decades. And your kids will be eff-ups.
At the very least, he's showing all the signs and symptoms of an NPD (Malignant). No, actually - the least is: he's cheating on you emotionally, FACT! - and/or physically, SUSPICION - and showing he doesn't give a crap, including how you feel, FACT!
(Don't fancy yours much
But - hey! Do what any self-respecting woman would do and cease the cohabitation and relationship while in a situation where you've yet to be convinced, and - let him prove your suspicion (and ours) WRONG! That's *prove*, though, yes?
You're probably in shock, still, though so - take your time if you want to talk more.
Say not one thing to him. Hide your tracks. Act 'as you were'.
PS: How come you were going to work but he wasn't?
PPS: Is it your house and he moved in with you?
PPPS: Sorry to say - I personally think they've had sex already thus have moved up a level to very intimate bf-gf disclosures (daring to plonk x-rated pic-sharing atop the table). What proof do you have that the male colleague even attended or had even been asked? I think you know this..is why you felt uneasy ...because you don't trust him and because you instinctually knew, despite not knowing how you knew (answer: he planted it) it was just he and this woman.
I realise I made a boo-boo: Borderlines, according to research, are your (intrinsically) genuinely nice Narcissistic Cluster Bs, who know not what they do or the impact of what they do, but when dawns on them/has it pointed out in 10ft letters, finally - DO change/improve....the exception to the Monster rule because in actual fact, they themselves (assuming they weren't NPDs given a misdiagnosis, note) victims of Narcissists.
There is Narcissistic Victim Syndrome and then there is Narcissistic Victim Syndrome repeated/compounded or sustained for too many years, equals, STUCK LIKE THAT (Fight/Flight), CAN'T GET OUT OF IT = "Borderline Personality Disordered" + sustained = Suicidal.
But BY GOD, you've got to have the patience and professionalism of a saint if you're their clinical therapist! It can take years, even decades (well, it's an awful lot of years' worth of damage to literally step-by-step un-do/reverse, eh, as we know).
So they are still choccie teapots where you and your romantic-path-progress timeframe are concerned and so it's still doomed out of a case of Right Person, Right Place, WRONG TIME (Nightmare Version).
But they're not genuine monsters, they're just over-traumatised and victimised trauma-victims, behaving accordingly (scared/wired as f*ck and caring far-far-far too much).
(Just for the less general record.)
Ermmm. Are the above posts excessive or what
Just an informal pointer - and please bear in mind going forward: this forum isn't like most other forums. Here, the only person at liberty to challenge or criticise other poster's input is myself and, rarely, the owner Richard (plus two other very trusted veterans, Susiedqq and Manalone); and the only person at liberty to criticise or challenge me or my input is, again, Richard. (Structure and Etiquette is *very* important around here. Because they're just another word for Boundaries.) But I'll take the time to field your comment on this occasion because  you've obviously never been the victim-target of a romantic con artist (- good!), and  it's important and well might possibly echo a few other newbies' or lurkers' thoughts, which - considering the large majority of thread-owners posting under Relationships are, unwittingly or otherwise at time of posting, involved however intimately with a Cluster B - leaves this forum open to committing accidental and inadvertent Re-Victimisation...and too easily, say, by invalidating their trauma or its level or seriousness. Anyone taking the respondent position would therefore be well-advised to gen up a.s.a.p.
Were you indeed either first- or second-hand familiar with the ins-and-outs of what wholly undesirable, all the way to nightmare-ish fate tends to *unavoidably* befall a partner (whichever gender) of a Cluster B romantic conman - you'd more likely be telling myself and the other respondents that our posts weren't excessive *enough*. Trust me on that. We're talking seriously damaged/lowered confidence, then self-esteem, then boundaries, then moral settings, then taboos; ...finances; relationships with others, including your own children and family circle - sometimes everyone you know! - possibly even physical harm, possibly hospitalisation or worse, but certainly whatever degree of neurological damage... Oh, and that trivial little thing called sanity. That and more - anywhere from temporarily to permanently, if the 'relationship' (er - fauxlationship/abuse cycle) is prolonged over years or where the abuse is condensed but severe.
There is the Abusive Relationship ("Run!"
and then there is The Narcissistically-Abusive Relationship ("JUMP!"
Try Googling (or YouTube-ing) RED FLAGS OF A NARCISSIST by any of the in-depth specialists - including your psychologists/therapists-made-victim-turned-specialist or once-victim-turned-expert - who are part of the rapidly growing, 'underground', Anti-Narc revolution going on, especially over the ether ("hello!"
). It's all about preparing you because forewarned is forearmed...and they're on the increase. Plus they 'get around a lot', ruining 3+ lives in tandem, meaning, their statistical proportion - 15% - can effectively be tripled (- *now* doesn't the amount/prevalence of evil-doing in the world suddenly make sense?). Happily, due to the fact that those with malignant Narcissism all behave so rigidly, characteristically similarly - it shouldn't take you too long to become well-versed, enough to be capable of identifying these manipulation and abuse tactics yourself, from within this or any future opening post.
...To name but a few:
- Cheating (as a form or not - but this case, yes - of...)
- "Removing the mask"
- Punishing (for merely calling out inappropriate behaviour), whilst failing to cease the unkind behaviour
- Future Faking
- Silent Treatment-ing (a version of - hence, his brushing-off then equalling her sleepless night)
- Devaluing (as in, the Narc Cycle of Abuse - Idealize; Devalue; (pretend-)Discard; repeat...)
I could go on (and on and on...much like their 'relationship' cycle if you don't take escape action).
As Jennifer Smith (truelovescam.com) basically tells it (i.e. like it is): With a Malignant Narcissist or other Cluster B - 'this was no relationship, it was a CRIME [disguised as a relationship]'.
As you'll soon see if you research into it enough: although none of the experts agree on *everything*, what they do agree most emphatically on is that there is NOTHING more dramatic - MELODRAMATIC, actually! - than having all areas of your life and psyche drip-drip damaged then RUINED, having unwittingly (due to "the mask"
getting long-term close and cuddly, particularly in whatever locked-in and/or behind-closed-doors fashion, with one of these boys (or girls).
Do me a favour and let me know when you've done it?