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Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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So, there is this common friend group that I have. I have met most people from it but due to the pandemic, we mostly meet in online video calls. The number of people on the call varies depending on everyone's schedule. There is this one girl in the group that was my senior and over the past few months, I started talking to her. We started talking about casual stuff like shows, work etc. but occasionally we talked about deeper stuff as well. This went on for two months. Then, a couple of times it was just us on the group call and we talked for hours for all sorts of stuff. A lot of it was our personal feelings about things or how we thought about certain kinds of relationships, what kind of childhoods we had etc. She mentioned previously that she is generally really private and so I was happy that she chose to share all this with me. Naturally, I assumed that we are decent friends now. Now, some time ago I asked her over text about a moral question I had (about giving people money). I asked her what she does in the situation. She said stuff like I don't need to know her opinion and that I am not allowed to reach out to her anytime I have questions and that she gets uncomfortable if I ask her personal stuff especially over text. This wasn't stuff that we hadn't discussed before and so I got angry and responded passive aggressively that I won't bother her now and I was asking her because she was a friend. To this, she response that we were not friends and she is just setting up a boundary. I flipped out at this and I said that we have different understanding of what a friend is. I tried to explain how I have been careful around her since she is private. She ended the conversation by saying that she does not want any contact beyond the group now and proceeded to unfriend me on all platforms. I do think that I overreacted and I should not have questioned why she has the boundaries that she has. I want to apologize for that remark but I feel that my being angry at her saying we are not friends was justified. I know that an apology of the type, "I am sorry for X but you did Y . . ." is not an effective one. Should I just apologize for not respecting the boundary and not mention the other stuff at all?

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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If you know you have done wrong, then apologise. Going by your post, you're anger's let you down. You don't have to apologise for crossing a boundary you didn't know existed, although most people would do so. It's a quick 'sorry, won't happen again'...too easy. The lesson learned is that not everyone shares your values and shares what you consider the definition of a friend, and even though you guys do belong to a group, you just can't take things for granted. Whatever people's opinions and outlooks, it's about respecting each other's boundaries and just accepting them full stop, even if they make no sense at all.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Oh I should clarify that this wasn't me texting her out of the blue. We have talked over DMs plenty of times talking about non-group stuff. That's why this reaction was unexpected for me.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Oh I should clarify that this wasn't me texting her out of the blue. We have talked over DMs plenty of times talking about non-group stuff. That's why this reaction was unexpected for me.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Oh I should clarify that this wasn't me texting her out of the blue. We have talked over DMs plenty of times talking about non-group stuff. That's why this reaction was unexpected for me.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Actually, this reads like maybe her partner saw this, was threatened by the closeness, and demanded she cut ties.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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No she's not in a relationship or dating anyone. She herself told me that.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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You only know what she felt like telling you. Getting ugly with you is just weird (though you didn't help matters by answering "aggressively") Move on. She (for whatever reason) doesn't want you to contact her.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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I did eventually apologize to her for overreacting. She ignored it for few days. Later just said thanks.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Well, that's progress, anyway. Well done! But, just FYI, when I clocked this by OldMainer, it matched what I was thinking would explain perfectly her sudden emotional-intimacy reversal: "Actually, this reads like maybe her partner saw this, was threatened by the closeness, and demanded she cut ties."

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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I highly doubt that. Anyway, after this thing, there was an argument among some group members and the group basically fell out. She also cut off some other people from the group (who had nothing to do with the argument) and she has been friends with them much longer than with me. So, something quirky or distressing definitely seems to up with her. You think I should do anything now? We didn't talk or anything after she said thanks to the apology.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Just let it go.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Cool. Thanks for listening y'all :)

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Oh, I missed this at the time - so sorry, Heisenberg! Hope you get an alert to this? "I highly doubt that. Anyway, after this thing, there was an argument among some group members and the group basically fell out. She also cut off some other people from the group (who had nothing to do with the argument) and she has been friends with them much longer than with me. So, something quirky or distressing definitely seems to up with her. You think I should do anything now? We didn't talk or anything after she said thanks to the apology." Yes, it does sound like something is going on with her in her background that you aren't aware of and that what happened wasn't actually personal to you, but her, as you say, overreacting - which she WOULD do if she had already come to the interaction in a stressed-out, defensive state of mind. Same goes for then falling-out with many of the others. Do you know what the group argument was about, that ended the entire group(!)? And did these other people from the group, separate from the argument, tell you WHY she cut them off? Can you ask any of them?

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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I mean, it could even be - she caught-on to a horrid rumour going around the group about her, didn't know who was behind it or spreading it, and was naturally suspicious at everyone - whereupon in you come, SEEMING to be nosy, asking her about PERSONAL STUFF, and she concluded the worst - that you were part of the gossip train, now pumping her for more info. She might then have asserted herself, as if to say, no more personal information, but the fact you seemed to take it BADLY - AND PUSHED (even a bit) - made things worse. The fact you did apologise will - if this scenario IS somewhere along the lines of what happened - definitely help. Once she's calmed down and got to the bottom of things by questioning whichever members, or clues have started swiftly coming back into her recall whereby she can work the truth out for herself - maybe she'll contact you. Because - I'm with you on finding it strange that she bothered to reply Thank-you. If she really wanted no more contact, she wouldn't have done that. It could be interpreted as a tiny hint from her, to say - not really done yet, bear with me. After all, if it's just that the person has grown-up being super-polite and can't shake the habit, even in this kind of scenario, then, when you mix that with a desire not to have any more contact with you - shouldn't you end up with plain old "Ok." ? She said Thank-you. It's gentle and in this whole context, conciliatory. Put it this way: you felt encouraged by it enough to ask if that were a cue for you to re-approach her, didn't you? Don't know yet.... You might have done what was needed just with your apology, and just need to sit back and 'wait' and see. Need the answers to my questions first. But yep... YEP... If cessation of contact were all she were after, she didn't do it very straightfowardly when she so could have so.... I'm intrigued too.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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I would not consider it an overreach to contact her outside of the group. Long discussions about personal subjects, leads to the belief that you can talk to each other about these types of things. Her saying you weren't friends was kind of rude and unexpected, but she certainly got her point across. When you reacted the way you did, it was definitely an overreaction. But nobody likes to be dismissed in such a way. So while your reaction is understandable, it was also inappropriate. My advice is simple. She wanted space and to not be friends, so ignore her and move on. Still talk to the rest of the group if you so choose, but avoid any 1 on 1 time with her.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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@SoulMate Sorry I missed this message. I thought this thread was dead. Let me provide you the information you asked for first. I'll try to keep it short. So, there are three characters here. J (the one who cut me off), R (another girl who's a friend) and S (a guy also a friend who basically established this group). On on of these calls after this incident, it was R, S, me and another guy. R and S had a big argument because S said some really sexist/misogynistic things (basically saying #NotAllMen). R left the call but those two have had those type of arguments in person as well so I thought they'll make up. Now, R told J over DMs that such stuff happened and that this guy is really sexist and so on. The next day, J sent out a really long message in the group explaining why arguments for NotAllMen are faulty. It was all good stuff, nothing incorrect. S in return wrote something in defense. R exited the group. J said, "This group is not serving me anything anymore" and left. Then, I left. To be honest, the guy deserved it. He does tend to get carried away in debates and personally attacks people. Anyhow, so S and J have been good friends since college days but as far as I know, she unfollowed him everywhere as well. Also, the other guy who was on the call? Unfollowed him too. That bloke hadn't even said anything problematic. I had a chance to meet R recently and while J hadn't told her about whatever happened with me, but she had told her that she's had it with/is frustrated from two men from the group. Basically, she thinks I am a sexist asshole.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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As for your second post, you definitely read my mind over there. She did ignore my apology for like 10 days. Then just said Thanks. It wasn't an outright acceptance of the apology so I sat on it for a while. Then, a few days ago, I shot out a "Hey!" to see if things had settled and she BLOCKED me! Honestly, I do feel a bit creepy about myself for that. Though after a bug argument with any other "friend", I am generally the one to reach out and so I did.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Bear with - I'll endeavour to reply tomorrow or Sunday!

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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"To be honest, the guy deserved it. He does tend to get carried away in debates and personally attacks people. " "so S and J have been good friends since college days but as far as I know, she unfollowed him everywhere as well. Also, the other guy who was on the call? Unfollowed him too. That bloke hadn't even said anything problematic." "I had a chance to meet R recently and while J hadn't told her about whatever happened with me, but she had told her that she's had it with/is frustrated from two men from the group. Basically, she thinks I am a sexist asshole." Yup. You got lumped-in. Probably because their emotions were running so high (having felt offended as a gender, whereby all of you blokes were "the opposition"...der enemy). "She did ignore my apology for like 10 days. Then just said Thanks." "Then just said Thanks. It wasn't an outright acceptance of the apology so I sat on it for a while. Then, a few days ago, I shot out a "Hey!" to see if things had settled and she BLOCKED me!" A few days ago? Oh. It's a shame you couldn't have sat on your hands. Because I would have said to leave it and let things cool down first. Well, now you're going to have to leave it because the ball is wholly in her court. Unless you can send her an email, saying, you're sad she's disappointed but think you understand what happened, would rather not stay forevermore Amen lumped with Mr Sexist, would have appreciated a chance to disassociate yourself from an argument you took no part in, and hope she'll get in contact again some day soon, take care, etc. It's not fair to you, but - if that's what she's like (volatile, unfair and unjust) then - do you really need friends like that, and might this not be an opportunity to find more like-mindeds?

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Personally, I WOULDN'T email. Not yet, anyway. She's liable to see it purely as you 'pushing' (how convenient). You'd have to leave it a good 2 months AND make it clear it was to be the last ever communication from you, in your bid to respect her stated wishes BUT YET ALSO, not fail to stand-up for YOURSELF against what you feel is a gross injustice (because that was HIS opinion, definitely not yours). I'm with you (bar the acting too soon every time part): I believe you had a right to reply because you were falsely accused, then denied a hearing and - hey, it's not just THEIR precious feelings that matter here, is it. And it's never about gender, either. It's about Nice men and women and Not Nice men and women. (She and the other woman are probably the type who say, My ex was blonde...so that's it, I'm never dating a blonde again! You, on the other hand, sound a lot cleverer than that.) Best of luck, hope that helped at least give you some peace of mind so you can stop feeling like a creep. Although, I have to tell you: no creep is half as conscientious as you so - I think you can relax on that score. BUT (for future advice), you aren't very patient. But you're young so - big deal, it'll come.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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PS: Another tip: Don't just type Hey! Narcs do that vague and non-commital crap, and somehow it's nowadays become a habit with everyone. Far better to do it properly and say something like, Hi R, am worried about you and whether you're ok? You can be genuine AND cool, you know? :-)

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Thanks for being kind. However, my argument with her took place BEFORE whatever happened with those people. So I don't think that she was angry at the other guy and took it out on me? In fact, the week after we had that debacle, she was being a little chummy with Mr. S. I haven't been able to make sense of it. I haven't been able to completely move on from it because people being mad at me makes me really uncomfortable (definitely some self esteem issues over there and I am seeing a therapist about it).

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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"PS: Another tip: Don't just type Hey! Narcs do that vague and non-commital crap, and somehow it's nowadays become a habit with everyone. Far better to do it properly and say something like, Hi R, am worried about you and whether you're ok?" Good tip. Will keep that in mind. Oh and btw R doesn't think that way about me. We are decent friends and she told me that J clubbing me with Mr. S made no sense as she thinks I am incapable of such bad behaviour! But well, to each their own I guess.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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(Sorry, saying R instead of J was an error!) "Thanks for being kind. However, my argument with her took place BEFORE whatever happened with those people. So I don't think that she was angry at the other guy and took it out on me? In fact, the week after we had that debacle, she was being a little chummy with Mr. S. I haven't been able to make sense of it. I haven't been able to completely move on from it because people being mad at me makes me really uncomfortable (definitely some self esteem issues over there and I am seeing a therapist about it)." OH! That, I did not realise! Well, in THAT case, she must have issues. I mean... how many people all in one short space of time can one person fall-out with so rapidly, normally? Maybe it doesn't make sense because what's in her head doesn't make sense? You don't need your therapist for that bit...to know a life truth, which is - some people aren't happy unless they've always got something to be unhappy about (or someone to be mad at). Nothing you can do about that. Even after your update of data, I can't see what you're supposed to have done wrong. Normally, I can. So that tells me it can't be any reflection on you and how you are as a friend, therefore. It can't be personal. Reckon even if you got an opportunity for a live conversational apology, it wouldn't be long enough before she were pouncing onto the NEXT thing or person (maybe even you again) to react negatively at. ...That's if any sense you said even WORKED. Because here's another fact: those that DON'T secretly need and enjoy the drama (healthy and mature enough) are the ones who act desperate to discuss and get the problem sorted and LEARNED from, and (thanks to the pain during conflict) never forgotten/now automatically borne inmind, so as to avoid any future repetition, ber-bom. That's you (tick!). How is HER conflict resolution WILL (never mind skills!) impressing ya so far? I'd give her a zero out of ten, wouldn't you? You can't BE friends with that. You'll always be 2mm away from the relationship breaking again or for-good. "Constantly walking on Eggshells, anyone?" I'm sorry, but a decent young woman with an legitimate beef would be only to pleased at SOME point to explain all her reasons for being peed-off with you. IN DETAIL. Because SHE'D want justice as well as you! She can't, and neither can she justify her stance, and therefore she's avoiding you rather than seeking justice (whilst denying you Closure). Only if you'd purposely killed her cat would blocking and blanking you like that (mercenarily) be socially acceptable etiquette. So it's fine and healthy to feel uncomfortable when you've LEGIMITATELY caused someone to be mad at you. But you, you're using your conscientiousness and hard-working ethic (think Diamond Dust) too indiscriminately, whereby people who DON'T deserve it are - BASICALLY - getting the goodies of yours that you should be keeping for people who have YOUR etiquette so DO deserve it. It's all energy and it is NOT limitless (by god doesn't youth kid you it is at the time, though!). You give away that energy today (that could be saved up for later life) to those the dust can't work on and, once you're an elderly man, when feeling energetic being a rare event is your new, full-time status quo, you'll kick yourself (well, ...you'll want to but won't have the energy!). Plus, futile campaigns of action aren't good for your confidence, it's like playing a fruit-machine that's set not to let you win whatsoever, but you don't know it and expect the same chance as any other fruit-machine. Plus "being arsed to do", that energy, is as much a social currency in life as money (think about it). I would soothe yourself and your sense of unfulfilled responsibility with the knowledge that - she doesn't work right (yet?).. Because - she just had MORE than one chance to work right, yet didn't. And getting mad at you-him-and-him-too is part of that. Because she's angry at blokes and (how very dare you!) YOU'RE A BLOKE. And you're also a gentleman with high standards. That's probably your problem. You're not unattractive enough for her. Because someone like you will NOT roll over when someone's trying to deprive you of a social RIGHT. She probably could see you'd make bad Yes Man. (Phew, eh?) Anyhoo, Lockdowns are over so you won't be so reliant on e-friendships now, right?

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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PS: Should add: if she's still young, like, under 25, then - she's just a lot less mature than you (different growth rates), still, and that's why she's embracing the drama, and you should befriend women a few years older?

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PPS: "A B C D E F G....H I R K L-M-N-O P" lol!

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"I'm sorry, but a decent young woman with an legitimate beef would be only to pleased at SOME point to explain all her reasons for being peed-off with you. IN DETAIL. Because SHE'D want justice as well as you! She can't, and neither can she justify her stance, and therefore she's avoiding you rather than seeking justice (whilst denying you Closure). Only if you'd purposely killed her cat would blocking and blanking you like that (mercenarily) be socially acceptable etiquette." The only explanation she gave was communication through texting exhausts her and personal questions exhaust her more than that. It feels like someone is in her personal space and she is very protective of that. She's working on building boundaries and she hopes it makes us both comfortable going forward. In hindsight, it was a relatively calm explanation and I flipped out to it. B

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But here's the catch. She unfriended/unfollowed me on various online platforms BEFORE I sent out my angry response. So, she had already made up her mind. "PS: Should add: if she's still young, like, under 25, then - she's just a lot less mature than you (different growth rates), still, and that's why she's embracing the drama, and you should befriend women a few years older?" Haha she's older than me actually. I'm about to turn 24, she's 25 something. I am generally attracted to women slightly older than me. "Anyhoo, Lockdowns are over so you won't be so reliant on e-friendships now, right?" Yeah. Lack of outside interaction is probably what is making me hyperfixate on such quibbles.

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"The only explanation she gave was communication through texting exhausts her and personal questions exhaust her more than that. ...She's working on building boundaries and she hopes it makes us both comfortable going forward." "In hindsight, it was a relatively calm explanation and I flipped out to it. B" Calmness has zero do to with it. I could remain calm while ambushing someone with cause for huge disillusionment: an illogical, sudden withdrawal of at-the-time important e-friendship without any explanation that makes sense based on what's gone on before - and I expect you could too. So PTHRRR! to Calm. That's just wrapping paper, doesn't change that there's a pellet poo inside, does it. She out-of-the-blue SNUBBED you because you weren't going to go quietly when unfairly DISMISSED. There we go. Anyone in your position would have FELT that flip-out, but we'd have kept it in so - at least this event has proven handy for showing you where certain self-protective mental muscles need concerted working-out to more adult-like dimensions and density? Every cloud... And nothing she's done since, supports that 'going forward' crap, it does the opposite, supports the snub. Gaslighting. Mild, but still... Denying you your experience (of her having been FRIENDS with you as came with well-defined expectations and insurances). Different if she'd said, I know we WERE friends but I've decided blah. But she's making denial noises and movements to what you know was the (presented) reality, and then adding insult to injury by making you feel somehow unreasonable for having found that treatment inappropriate, unfair, unkind and basically BAD SHOW. If she were someone else's actual victim, she wouldn't have the inclination, let alone be able to bring herself, to turn around and treat someone else unkindly after having led them on. (Albeit, that doesn't means she isn't convinced she's one, of course.) So we can rule that theory out, actually. Oh wait - "But here's the catch. She unfriended/unfollowed me on various online platforms BEFORE I sent out my angry response. So, she had already made up her mind. " Oh, well, then - that settles it! You were already powerless to affect a thing and just didn't know it at the time. My verdict: You didn't do a thing wrong - you were wronged. I think the truth is, you and the group were needed during lockdown but now she's done with you and, to save face (and hide what a mercenary she is), she invented this "reason" to get offended and flounce off ....offended enough to "have to" (look what you made me do) stay that way for AGES ....until you all forgot to remember she even existed. Send her invoice for Lockdown Entertainment, go on, LOL. But then, she's only 25. She's still got a few months to a year (!) left to change her behaviour before it can be called her hard-set default, which is selfish, hard-hearted and rude (in a spoiled-baby, drama and chaos-creating way), childishly lazy-minded, bit machievellian, responsibility-dodging, cowardly....two onion bhajis and a bottle of Kingfisher (sorry, got bored with writing the list). Remember this for future ref if your parents never warned you: Abusers - or in this case, even someone using you before discarding you and blaming her decision on you - would have you believe that how you REACT to their mistreatment (- including lack of admission and sign of guilt), now takes top billing and centre stage as The Problem Between Us (- a distraction and smokescreen behind which to escape what might otherwise have led to your judgment and their facing the consequences or their shame). But what really confirms they're abusive, is if this inadequate or bad behaviour is consistently met with them trying to pin the blame on someone else or some pity-inducing sob-story, because pity disarms you (triggers your paternal instinct, which at your age you're especially susceptible to). "Yeah. Lack of outside interaction is probably what is making me hyperfixate on such quibbles." Yeah. But, even though I can tell you've found peace over it - this is still important, still something to learn from and fortify your suit of armour with. Well anyway. What a self-serving wotsit. "Neext!..." PS: "Older" is not decided by ones on-paper age. Maturity is shown in how one conducts oneself and treats ALL others equally. And being able to order a Kingfisher lager, of course. I think you're palpably sophisticated and insightful for 24. Only the lack of ability to count to 10 under-fire/ambush, calm down, THEN think through - so that you respond, not react, and intelligently, rather than negatively-emotionally aka knee-jerking - gives you away. But I still thought, about 28. So you COULD go for 27-28 if you wanted or found yourself faced with the opportunity? Although, then you definitely WOULD have to come to that table with that aforesaid muscle to a more impressive dimension. So it's an option? But then, who cares. It's not like you're trying to grow old before your time. But I do think that's the missing piece in the otherwise quite Bond-James Bond aura. Anyway, you're very nice to chat to and I enjoyed our mental network to solve this here emotional crime. Go gettem, Tiger. :-)

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Haha it's fine. I am not holding hate against her (though I do feel good that you sided with me). Apart from patience, the lesson learnt is also that better talk to people over the phone rather than text. Tones are always misunderstood. Anyway, it's great to see such old style forums still functioning. Thanks for keeping such a community alive. I'll surely be back with more problems (:-P).

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YES, THEY ARE. That is a very canny, sensible, mature decision! And one that a surprising number of people are coming to, lately, too (no doubt something to do with the Cost Of Living Crisis). Soon enough, the fact you're a Pro Phoner (made up but...let's see if it gets into mainstream vernacular LOL) will, I'm sure, make you stand out as more attractive (EE DUZ FINGS PROPER, EE DUZ :-)). Come back after a decent trial period and let us know what differences it made? PS: It's not me keeping it alive, it's Richard, the owner. He designed, wrote and funds it himself, as well - for no profit - so - if you wanted to make a wee donation then click the Support dropdown menu at the top. Or if ANYONE wants, for that matter? LOL (They're all starving and shivering over in Blighty, apparently!) PPS: Am I crazy for thinking you came here once before, about....ooh, more than 5 years back?

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"PS: It's not me keeping it alive, it's Richard, the owner. He designed, wrote and funds it himself, as well - for no profit - so - if you wanted to make a wee donation then click the Support dropdown menu at the top. Or if ANYONE wants, for that matter? LOL (They're all starving and shivering over in Blighty, apparently!)" Aah my card does not allow me. Bummer. "PPS: Am I crazy for thinking you came here once before, about....ooh, more than 5 years back?" Naah. First time. I would be sorted if I had thought such things 5 years ago lol. Also, like you said instinctually people will hold that anger in and that is what MY INSTINCT also was. But I turned to a couple of close friend coz I never know how to react in social situations and they said I should stand up for myself. I should have listened to myself!

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Stupid card! LOL It was your German-sounding name, combined with your gentlemanly air...it rang a bell. Course, I could have just looked in the archive (ducks rotten tomatoes), but - IT'S TOO HOT *AND* HIGHLY HUMID HERE IN SPAIN, OMG - AND IT'S ONLY JUNE SO WTF IS AUGUST GOING TO BE LIKE, HEEELP MEEEE (yours, Sweaty & Lethargic). You in Germany or YUK (as I've renamed it)? Like your last paragraph. People aren't aware that keeping any overpowering feelings in basically shaves years off your life. We used to think a-holes were just a-holes...just hell while we were with them. Oh, no - they leave you damaged, alright ("the gift that keeps on giving")...chip-chip-chip away at your confidence in you and how the world's supposed to work. Abnormal, over-personal stress, innit. Definitely not of the good variety when it's because you're dealing with superficial or fake friends like that one up there who try to make you think there's something wrong with YOU whenever they're treating you badly and inadequately due to bad, empty-hearted and unhealthy attitudes. You can't keep THAT in because it's literally toxic. You've got to talk it out until you can't be arsed anymore. So that's a very healthy and sensible shift you've made. Go for it. Boys who can't handle discussing their feelings together are cissies (lol) (might work? - try it? - put it back on THEM).

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"It was your German-sounding name, combined with your gentlemanly air...it rang a bell. Course, I could have just looked in the archive (ducks rotten tomatoes), but - IT'S TOO HOT *AND* HIGHLY HUMID HERE IN SPAIN, OMG - AND IT'S ONLY JUNE SO WTF IS AUGUST GOING TO BE LIKE, HEEELP MEEEE (yours, Sweaty & Lethargic). You in Germany or YUK (as I've renamed it)?" Nah I am from India. However hot and humid it is there, I assure you it is more than that here (:-P). Have got a good set of childhood friends fortunately. They always warn me about potential red flags in people (men or women) but of course I never listen to them until things go out of hand haha.

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Oh - India! Interesting Indian-sounding alias there, LOL. Sounds very German. Not confusing at all, then, LOL. "However hot and humid it is there, I assure you it is more than that here (:-P)." Oh, good. Knowing you're suffering even more than me makes me suddenly feel SO MUCH COOLER, LOL LOL LOL. You should market yourself as the new hands-free, personal cool air fan - that one purchases and activates via credit-card over the phone - needing only a pre-recorded message on your part ("My heat-stroke's far bigger than your heat-stroke - thanks for calling, enjoy your purchase!", click, brrr.... LOL). (Ya daftie.) I wish it did work, I tell ya. And the forecast said we've ANOTHER heatwave coming. (Have you?) So anyway, are you saying your seasonal average has just got hotter by 10 degrees C too? Or just, your normal is still hotter than our uncharacteristic, global-warming-caused heatwave? *********** "but of course I never listen to them until things go out of hand haha." No, no, no, Monsieur - it's true you never USED to listen to them HENCE things got out-of-hand. But New You listens ('The intelligent gene-vehicle uses all the tools that the environment lays on for them - Dicky Dawkins (not verbaatim) - The Selfish Gene) (and the good friend shows faith and trust in his friends and their judgement because it's psychologically good for them while could save you heaps of headaches-on-legs - verbatim - me just now, LOL). Old You got mistreated and, when you said Ow, blamed for it. New You knows how to avoid that/them now (she'll have left signs you can retro-spot). By making healthy use of the good tools so as to have your hands too full to pick up bad ones. Meanwhile, if ever you want a very clear sign of whether something is off or not, wrong or not, unhealthy or not, but your friends aren't available - just ask yourself: Would *I* ever dare, or lower myself, to do or say such a thing or behave in such a way to another person, especially a friend, and a new or budding one at that? If the answer is no, then, there's your answer. Because, above all else - toxicity or not - you and anyone have to have morals and principles in-common, not purely circumstance, or it won't bond properly or last '5 minutes'. So what did your friends say in this particular case?

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It definitely seems hotter than usual. I remember one or two years ago I only needed to turn on the air conditioner after like 1 pm. Now, I have it on by 10-11 am and pretty much running all through the day (further worsening the environment). We had one of the worst heatwaves ever! Temperatures at some places touched (50 degrees Celsius). Fortunately, I live near the coast, so it's not THAT bad. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Meanwhile, if ever you want a very clear sign of whether something is off or not, wrong or not, unhealthy or not, but your friends aren't available - just ask yourself: Would *I* ever dare, or lower myself, to do or say such a thing or behave in such a way to another person, especially a friend, and a new or budding one at that?" That sounds like a good test! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "So what did your friends say in this particular case?" Well, the two closest people to me who pretty much know everything about me said they found her weird from the beginning (and they did tell me so). Ohw and after the whole incident, they were of the opinion that my response was actually TONED DOWN than what it needed to be. They have a good reason to believe so since I read the exact chats to them whereas here I have only described it vaguely according to my perception.

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Fifty degrees? Good God, that would kill me! And it's bloody expensive, aircon, isn't it. Also makes my head feel ill - I've no idea why - so I tend to use a floor-standing fan and intermittently spray myself, particularly all my pulse point, with a plant mister containing cold water. What went through your head when (presumably separately?) these two friends told you honestly how they felt? Did it give you reservations or just intrigue you further?

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Haha yes. Makes me feel ill too sometimes. I open up a window for some time with the ac on. Not ideal but works. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ummm haven't given it that much conscious thought. Firstly, my best friends are a couple. I can generally see and understand their rationale and their concern but I don't know when it actually comes to implementing it, my instinct takes over and I end up doing the wrong thing. Also, our experiences have been varied. They don't hang out with the kind of people I do and vice versa so I tend to give new people (like the one above) the benefit of doubt. They certainly have more experience of dealing with people and social situations so generally they do tend to be right with people skill stuff.

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Yep, I have to do that, have the window open a crack, if I need it on in the car. Anyhoo... As it turns out that people being 'different types' doesn't impede this couple's ability to see through them, one iota, and they're already good friends of yours, I'd be using them (e.g. a double-date) to secretly screen every single potential beau or friend I met! I mean - what a life feature you've been wasting: a built-in radar on 'four' legs! LOL Some people would cut off their right arm to be able to outsource that kind of hassle! Usually, the ones that have already experienced what it's like getting in far deeper than you did with a gobsmackingly selfish and immature individual (painful, basically...very, very painful), and tend not to ever want to go there again. Because, really, the best cure is avoiding getting involved them in the first place. Meanwhile, you could be studying up on that type and their behaviour and learn the tell-tale signs second-hand from the really indepth, personal accounts (including some clinical experts), whereby you might then start to recognise other aspects that align with and support with your friends' gut instinct. It might, however (only because it's so common), be that your gut instinct IS to ignore warnings SO THAT you can get to sample a narc or overly narcissistic type for yourself, for-real and in real time?...Maybe to better understand someone you're close to who went to Hell and back, romantically, with one and perhaps is still struggling with the aftermath? IOW, maybe your 'deepie-downies' feel a need to walk a mile in their shoes?

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"I'd be using them (e.g. a double-date) to secretly screen every single potential beau or friend I met!" That is a good idea hah! "Meanwhile, you could be studying up on that type and their behaviour and learn the tell-tale signs second-hand from the really indepth . . . " The funny thing is that my lady best friend used to be such a person herself back when we were teenagers! But she recognized it after a few years and so now she can spot such behavior from a mile away. I do have a pattern for getting close to narcissistic people (not just women but some men too). R, that I mentioned a few messages ago. I had a complicated "friendship" with her too and my lady best friend had warned me about her too saying that she is toxic. In that case, I did summon up the courage to say screw you if you treat me like this to R. "Maybe to better understand someone you're close to who went to Hell and back, romantically, with one and perhaps is still struggling with the aftermath?" Yes that person is me LoL

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Oh is it, indeed? AND? (What is this - striptease? LOL) PS: Having the seeming fortune to have spotted their evil twin and (unconsciously) using them to re-enact the relationship (or certainly the final acts) in the hope of this time getting (or being able to work out) explanations, isn't uncommon, either.

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Oh no I haven't been in relationships with such people but I do have a tendency to get drawn towards narcissistic or toxic personalities now that I think about it. In fact, this best friend that I have, I was mad about her when we were teenagers and back when she was (in her own words) self-obsessed. But when reconnected years later and she had turned "normal", there was no attraction. "PS: Having the seeming fortune to have spotted their evil twin and (unconsciously) using them to re-enact the relationship (or certainly the final acts) in the hope of this time getting (or being able to work out) explanations, isn't uncommon, either." Yup that's probably true. This friend was the first girl I seriously liked and she pretty much set the template for the kind of women I got attracted to for the next one two years at least. Bold, outspoken that kind. With the girl mentioned in the question (J), I thought I had finally broken out of my type coz she was quite what we could call traditionally "feminine" but as per your (and my friends') judgement, seems like she is the same.

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SOULMATE disappeared or what(?) hahah

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Hey-hey! Sorry, I had real probs (agsin) with my interweb and it interfered with my alerts (haven't a clue why, though...techie was rushed and just went "bish-bosh!" before darting off again...but I'll pin him down next time). Bear with me a little while longer, though, as I've already got a bit of a queue forming, I think? I'll try to squeeze a bit of time in tomorrow...if not, Wednesday for sure. :-)

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(sigh) No more time-promises from now-on, I've decided...I'm just not in control of my own schedule any more and that's all there is to it... Sorry again... "Oh no I haven't been in relationships with such people but I do have a tendency to get drawn towards narcissistic or toxic personalities now that I think about it." Well, think about it some more and tell me whether you're sure it's a case of, you being drawn towards, or, them being drawn towards YOU? They're very good at manipulating while leaving you with the impression that it was all your idea and all your approach.....Tink verry cerrfoolly, Meester Bondt... "In fact, this best friend that I have, I was mad about her when we were teenagers and back when she was (in her own words) self-obsessed. But when reconnected years later and she had turned "normal", there was no attraction." She just grew out of it, as you do. Narcissism is a normal, natural, developmental phase that occurs, first as a toddler ("NNNO!"/"WAAAH!") and then a teenager-to-early 20s ("NO - UCK-OFF"/"AAARGH!/"I KNOW EVERYTHING AND YOU'RE OLD AND UNCOOL"). One tends to gradually slide in, stay in for a bit, then slide out, but the "left-to-right" motion can be a jerky, back-forth one, whereby the teen acts like a spoiled brat from Hell in the morning, only to suddenly switch to an almost sophisticated, highly reasonable, pretty delightful adult in the afternoon (hormone surge patterns allowing). It is NOT REMOTELY the same as Narcissism that's so extreme it disorders the personality as renders the individual abusive all the way to destructive to everyone/those closeest to them. I've noticed this confusion round and about the ether. Present and future parents should be extremely wary of giving that vitally healthy age-stage, along with the Teenagers themselves, a bad name or the poor teen/late teen could end up damaged or bursting at the seams in later life instead (Severe Mid Life Crisis, for example). That sort of attitude and behaviour is only wrong-so-wrong when despite they're now 30 they're STILL (by whatever unreasonable degree) acting self-obsessed, selfish, spiteful, manipulative, etc., putting their interests miles ahead of any and every other person or family member (even their own kids) or, worse, trying deliberately to bring people down (possibly permanently). *****NOTE EVERYBODY READING THIS, PLEASE: TEENAGE NARCISSISM AND NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER ARE NOT THE SAME THING *AT ALL*. ONE IS MERELY A TEMPORARY PHASE, THE OTHER IS WORSE, CONTAINS UNNATURAL/ANTI-SOCIAL ELEMENTS AND IS A PERMANENT, INCURABLE SETTING.***** Soz about that - back to you... ""PS: Having the seeming fortune to have spotted their evil twin and (unconsciously) using them to re-enact the relationship (or certainly the final acts) in the hope of this time getting (or being able to work out) explanations, isn't uncommon, either." Yup that's probably true. This friend was the first girl I seriously liked and she pretty much set the template for the kind of women I got attracted to for the next one two years at least. Bold, outspoken that kind. With the girl mentioned in the question (J), I thought I had finally broken out of my type coz she was quite what we could call traditionally "feminine" but as per your (and my friends') judgement, seems like she is the same."" In that case, I suggest you abstain from dating until that template dissolves, and meanwhile focus on (healthy) women as FRIENDS. Interaction with their better, healthier treatment of you, along with your own (you can spoil yourself as often as you like when you're solo), will layer-by-layer replace that defunct template. Plan, Stan?

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"In that case, I suggest you abstain from dating until that template dissolves, and meanwhile focus on (healthy) women as FRIENDS." Sounds like good advice. I always tended to stick with the "popular" kids and to me seems like they are more likely to engage in self-serving behavior. The thing is after making a couple of friends like that I did develop a few vague heuristics to identify such behavior. Like do they make all their problems about themselves? Are all their social media posts about them and no one else? Stuff like that. However, I am not sure if it works. For example in case of J, she works for a non-profit, hardly uses any social media (generally self-obsessed people love validation, right?) and nothing about my interactions with her would indicate that she is narcissistic in any way. So anyway, my query is that is there something specific I should look out for? Any traits or behavior?

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Absolutely loads, mate! However, sadly I just don't have the time at the mo. to gather links for you. Or not as quickly as you need them, anyway. But it is very easy to compile your own list from multiple ones available on the web (they overlap but also can differ or mention a symptomatic sign that the others don't). Type -Red Flags of a Narcissist- or some such, and then 'of a Sociopath'. Also -The differences between the narcissist and sociopath. And -...between the narcissist and psychopath. And -...the sociopath and psychopath. But, what I can say is: some charity workers, carers, medical staff, officers...Heroes...actually are genuine heroes (vocational rescuers), where the narcissistic of whatever severity do it so that other people THINK they're Heroes and/or to get to underhandledly boast about it, fish for compliments, etc. Gain huge respect and attention WITHOUT having to earn it with any SOCIAL contacts by doing the normal building-a-friendship/relationship work. Just self-Name(Role)-Drop. For the worst of the Narcs (the Narcissistic Sociopath), who DON'T just smash-grab-steal your joie de vivre, loveliest, "unique to you" personality traits and sayings, friends, etc., being "a hero" makes them instantly 'in', and "trustworthy" which is great for petty scamming (material goods and money)...usually again and again (takes a while for the normal-healthy brain to accept he/she is a real-life nasty piece of work in sheep's clothing). And no, not all NPDs splash themselves all over Fakebook. Some are Cerebral...too intelligent to give anyone a means to check up on them or work them out, or simply have their fingers in far bigger pies. Or just keep their profile highly private, not even posting a publicly viewable profile pic. Or are loner psychos. Or, if the gullible type, were manipulated by a narc to no longer want you around... loads of possibilities, would need far more data than that. Knowing the NPDs, though, what I'd more likely respond with, is this: "For example in case of J, she works for a non-profit," How do YOU know? What - because she told you? Where's your concrete evidence? Does her squishy, caring, charitable nature extend - as the genuine stuff can't help but naturally do - to her, say, social life? And isn't a charitable person usually a sociable one (think about it)? So that's not adding up, is it....unless it's an animal charity? But she could equally just be a case of, gullible and under the you-hating influence of a narcissist who wanted to isolate her away from you? Need more data. "hardly uses any social media" How do YOU know?, etcetera? "(generally self-obsessed people love validation, right?)" Only the SOCIO-paths (Malignant Narcs and Narcissist Sociopaths - deformed by human hands). PSYCHO-paths (born that way, exacerbated by human hands), don't give a sh*t what other mere humans thinks of them, good or bad, they actually DO believe they're All That, Perfect, A Superior Specie, as opposed to the Malig Narc who's always desperately trying to convince themselves with your help (basically "I'm gorgeous, aren't I"). Thoughts?

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"How do YOU know? What - because she told you? Where's your concrete evidence? " Oh I attended one of the outreach events her organization was doing so that was legitimate. I don't think she was faking that aspect of her. She was good at what she did. "How do YOU know?, etcetera?" Didn't really post/interact with people a lot. She told me multiple times that social media is exhausting for her and she tries to keep it to a minimum. However, one thing that I found peculiar is that she had a public profile and that she follows very selected set of people in order to keep her feed interesting and clean. Like she did not even follow some of her close friends which I found odd (but in a quirky way). She told me she had a public profile in order to interact with new people and find new interests. Made sense to me. I don't think she had a narcissistic personality. Maybe more of a avoidant personality(?). She was passive aggressive though and one time my gut went "uhmmmmm what". Early on, I didn't know that she was THAT private and avoided using her phone. We used to send/talk/discuss something every other day on social media so after a week of silence from her side, I texted her, "Hey! You've been quiet lately. All good?" because she had told me earlier that something was not going well in her workplace. She said, "Yeah. Just trying to stay off social media for some time". I thought ah okay but before I said anything back she added, "Thanks for the concern. But I'm like 90% quiet and 10% out there so this is very normal and you don't need to check in on me :)" (now that I think of it, passive aggression was always followed by ":)"). Idk this sounds bad, right? I thought maybe I am intruding into some space I shouldn't. So I didn't talk to her for some time. But later when we met for the group thing and talked one on one again (for several hours), everything seemed normal and we talked about MORE personal stuff than before.

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Are you confusing passive-aggression for covert aggression? Most do these days so - here you go... **************************************************************************************************** http://eligerzon.com/blog/2015/06/passive-aggressive-vs-covert-aggressive/ Passive Aggression Starting with the more familiar term: when someone is being passive aggressive it’s important to stress that they are being passive. For example they: Avoid finishing a project Don’t show up for an appointment “Forget” to pick something up They are avoiding acting in order to passively express (usually) anger. It often involves not talking and not doing. Covert Aggression On the other hand, covert aggression usually involves very active talking and doing and then covering it up. For example: Talk behind someone’s back to gain an advantage, while smiling to their face Give compliments to someone in a way that enables them to be manipulated Step on someone’s foot and then pretend it was an accident, especially if the goal is to intimidate or throw someone off balance (literally or figuratively) Simply put, covert aggression is being aggressive and trying to pretend they are not being aggressive. ****************************************************************************************************** This J still sounds even iffier to me now. Sounds like, if fakebook were her nightclub, her VIP area is so firmly sectioned off from the filthy Hoi Polloi (whom might let slip to the fans that Mrs Shiny mostly wears joggers...vain, petty stuff like that) that it's kept in another building altogether! This - getting to control admissions and what info can or can't be shared around, is known as the spider sat in the centre of the web. Typical narc control method. People with a lack of time don't tend to have TWO fakebook accounts, now, do they. That's like shovelling ice-cream in your mouth while claiming to hate the stuff. What rot. Couldn't even be bothered to put any effort into her confrontations-avoidant "you can go away now" hinting. Reckon she just changed her mind about you the minute she realised you wouldn't do as one of her human ladders, hence the schmoozing (albeit Lite) suddenly ceased without a backwards glance...and then you got given lazy, illogical, over-formal, basically polite-sounding but insulting (two faced) excuses when you pushed for a reason because AND AS YOUR PUNISHMENT for the fact you didn't take the (actually insulting and responsibility-avoiding) hint to "stop (all of a sudden -) BOTHERING her". (Gimmie the gun!) She misled you into mistaking schmoozing during an interview so intense yet warm and welcoming it felt too convincingly like the foundations of a new friendship being built. Yet somehow, YOU'RE the pest! Typical.... "Narcissists like you to believe that their abuse is not the problem but YOUR REACTION to it" ...or dare react at all to your superior, "you annoying pleb". And narcs ALSO can turn their emotions/attitude on a sixpence, meaning, switch to behaving like the incident never even happened whereupon you're supposed to join in with pretense and illusion and chat back like nothing happened (wouldn't do that again if I were you, it's taken as "Please sir, can I have some more")....until they plonk you all over again into their toybox to neglect or use at will as their mood takes them ("The patient will see you now, Doctor"). Yup. That fakebook LITERAL TWO-FACEDNESS epitomises another of the many back-to-front things they do. Instead of giving attention and nurturing to others outside of their intimate circle only once the former have had their fill, they do the opposite and give the dinner to strangers and scraps to their nearest and dearest (if they're lucky). They are "Opposites Day" merchants, do everything back-to-front because they've been mal-SET back-to-front, encapsulated by this: what matters is how things look not how they feel. This means her "genuine friends" can just sit and wait and starve while - insultingly in their eyeshot - she butters up any VIP she can lure to her lovely shiny (but empty, save for hot-air) fb shop. Haha, it's quite amusing really...a case of two masks, a thick one and slightly opaque one. And "curiously", it's at the latter "address" where her (slightly) truer colours live and into which she places a security system. How volumatically revealing.... like buying a high-tech CCTV and perimeter detection system for your potting shed while installing bugger-all in your main house then leaving its front door wide open all day long. This woman's not even TRYING to hide her dual personas and lifestyles. (Wow, they've really made themselves at home and got all cocky over on FB then? The must believe the takeover (infection) is complete, making it their playground territory now. No wonder so many normals are increasingly abandoning site.) With that the case, I don't reckon anyone who felt perfectly HAPPY to stay in her potting shed while the VIPs all discuss caviar and champers, would be worth getting to know, either. Are you getting to sample enough people in RL? Are you able to get out enough? These electronic venues aren't cutting the mustard any more (except for fakers). You can't meet your mates at the pub wearing your fluffy bunny slippers any more, you have put shoes on and go outdoors where, actually, the graphics are more vivid and impressive rofl. Lazy Days are dead and gone, I'm afraid. We have urgent repairing and restoring to do and gadgets are going to become demoted from entertainment back to utility again. For starters, we may well be unable to spare electricity to charge the buggers and might have to rig our chargers up to Dynamos fitted to our bicycles or exercise bikes...pedal-power. (What a great idea, actually!) But I digress... Whether delivered verbally or behaviourally - that brief, rushed-intimacy, seduction-sedation in order to rifle through your pockets without your objection, to gauge your potential and weaknesses (usefulness, manipulability) still comes under Love-Bombing and Future Faking and Gaslighting (I'm your new friend)...not what an Avoidant would do. An Avoidant is the OPPOSITE of someone desperate to be "popular" and "admired/envied", treated like the star of what should be a joint show, and who hitches/cons a ride for-free to the next (false heirarchal) tier up. If an Avoidant love-bombs, it's purely to get to set the pace this time so as to feel safer, in-control, than with "what" injured them into that state, but for self-medicating purposes, not for Power Over ones. They're just trying to cope and tend to themselves. Plus they lead with logic...stick to it like glue, actually. The Narc gives you the Alice In Wonderland "whoosh!" because even at the time you SENSE they're only pretending to be enamoured with you yet find you can't resist seeing more (morbid curiosity and/or a fascination with a broken/corrupted human and the fact your brain's yelling what-is-it-what-is-it - find out-find out! - it can't be! - but it is!...is it!?...get in closer! (uh-oh)). Too irresistible,...too age, gender, creed, colour non-discriminate, like Hunt The Easter-Egg....fun the whole family can enjoy, LOL. Really, it's because the clinical descriptions are missing their other half: the emotional experience - which the fauxlationship is mainly all about. They this and that blah blah which is very interesting / "And OMG, when I saw the look in his eyes...I still have nightmares about it!..." NOW you've got it. We beans have always-always got into the box rather than remained peering in from outside. That's precisely how Little Johnny (according to Skippy - or his interpretor) was always falling down the damned well! (haha) In fact, nosy Johnny was climbing down there..with his torch..cos he was sure he could see something intriguing down there. LOL Just Skippy's carrots - hence the constant dobbing-in. (Just injecting a bit of R&R) If you continue to believe she's a poor Avoidant, as such, deserving of your sympathy and another, more understanding and accommodating chance, you'll be playing straight into her hands by basically DECIDING what she is. Not as bad as a Narc. Well, by her own admission, she's TWO Narcs! She's probably using a shop window dressed like a business on FB instead of Linked-In BECAUSE then any useful contacts are automatically getting the subliminal promise of friendship with Her Royal Highness, dangled as a (plastic) carrot....a marketing ploy that goes - Buy Me, Get Me free! Smoke & Mirrors or what. What, bar her own arrogance, makes HER so buyable? "Is she a brand, tho...". That one went out as fast as it came in, in the 90s. But as people are now far too stressed and over-busy to stop and think about what things are actually saying and meaning, not CONCENTRATING, her subliminal sales pitch sounds similar enough to the standard BOGOF as would make people fill in the missing gaps and hear and Pavlovian-react the same as if it WERE just another normal BOGOF....dribble-dribble, I'm suddenly hungry. We're all of us animals...just some of us have a human extension and others are just clever animals that mimic what we say, like parrots, to pass themselves off as working models. Sounds like your typical coward yet user to me*, one who only really wants to rub shoulders with people above her to socially climb and then cuts them off mid running conversation, virtually the minute it becomes clear they're not one of the many human ladders she'd initially hoped or mistaken them for. No longer of use - "Next!". Meanwhile making excuses that insult your intelligence AGAIN through not adding up. (*Talking of illogical: if I were going to risk pissing huge numbers of people off all the time by treating them like mere free taxis - which could easily attract revenge attempts - I wouldn't proceed knowing I were a giant coward, would you? But then, we're not arrogant and self-aggrandising nor prey to self-delusion so severe it amounts to magical thinking.) The truth is, benigns don't know WHAT they think, because it's dictated by their up n down moods...nor how to present their stage character with any continuity and congruity. They're teeth-grinding, envious, "I'll get you for that" (and "I should be wearing that cool jacket, not you!") merchants, too constipated with decades of anger and (self-inflicted) hard-done-by-ness to think straight. You still this far along, sense you were dicked around before dumped. So you must have been. And now with that fakebook nonsense, she fits the profile perfectly. Also, having two separate sites does smack of another narc attitude (over-entitlement) called "having her cake and eating it". Sounds like a glaring example to me. So like I said - working for Outreach could just be, it was the best job on-offer back at the time when she was interviewing, likes it there, and the functions, plus it pays well and on top of all that, makes her look auto-trustworthy and admirable so saves her weeks and months of social legwork (to EARN trust). Still doesn't make HER a big-hearted altruist. Plus even the victim meetings can be infiltrated by your "wolf in injured, victimised little lambie's clothing" looking for extra-vulnerable people susceptible to a seeming, strong and capable rescuer come fan. Your benign narc, however, would just want to reflect in the charity's glory. "But later when we met for the group thing and talked one on one again (for several hours), everything seemed normal and we talked about MORE personal stuff than before." I reckon she doesn't have a vacancy for you....yet., so was only wanting to bring you up to a certain temperature to then maintain within the warmer cabinet (like a fish n chip shop steak & kidney pie to possibly eat later). Probably she talked to you in-person at the next group meet (like nothing had happened) was actually her predator senses being able to tell you'd cooled down and needed re-raising to on-the-side temperature again - but with less time in which to do it in, hence turned the temperature dial UP (- MORE intimate). See it now? You've been trying to interpret behaviour as if the actor were human-sentient rather than an aggressive, antagonistic, well-practised ("one trick Pony") type of naked ape with half its processors missing but able to look normal in a suit....Your chimp with a typewriter, but that can only keep typing warped Wordsworth instead of Shakespeare: I wandered lonely as cloud which is everyone else's fault and why I hate the whole, damn crowd! (which at least rhymes LOL). How long in weeks and days was the first session under her heater cabinet?

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Wow you make her sound reallllly bad. Apart from the social media thing, I didn't find anything weird weird at the time. But hey the brain ignores red flags like red lights on an empty street when it wants to. It would be quite difficult to fake such a range of interests I believe. Though you definitely sound more experienced in this regard and I'll take your word for it! Slight clarification - we did not meet in person. It was the regular online meet but just three of us showed up and then just us two. IIRC, we talked till the sun came up I think and we talked about hopes and fears, what kind of love language we have, how we were as kids, why she broke up with her previous boyfriend, why I had a turbulent childhood and what not. Definitely not things I would share with an acquaintance. The timeline went like this: - She disappeared from social media/DMs so I checked up on her. - She sent me the covertly aggressive thing the next day. I felt iffy about it and decided to let her have her space and not try to force anything. - No contact for about a week. Then she sent me some link about a product she wanted to buy asking for my review. - About 10 days after that, we had that call and during that neither of us brought up that iffy interaction. - After that, during the next few days, I did feel like there was a lull but by now I thought we were well acquainted with each other and with friends I don't think that much if I am being excessive or what. - About a week after that, we fought. I also feel like I misjudged myself a bit. I showed whatever I wrote to her to some of my friends and they said it wasn't hostile or overtly aggressive. Rather they said I was being a pushover. That might be true. I have a problem with self perception and I am working to fix it. Also, yeah I am planning to go live in another city for a while (yay work from home) where my other college friends live to have a a bit of change of pace.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Hey-hey! (Hectic, stressy, frazzled week - sorry to keep you waiting again.) Well, when you've repeatedly seen, experienced, felt, read up on ("obsessively"), been told about in full detail (both good and bad for a balanced evidence table and context), frisked and examined, prodded, poked and taken samples from every tip of every type of iceberg - Red Flag to you but I think iceberg better suits the cold, hard-hearted, gobsmackingly "insensitive and socially inept" type (nah, just don't care about anyone but themselves unless they want/need something) and certainly this one - and they're all extremely similar in their shapes and behaviour, as are the types of ships they're able to damage, then it's not that difficult to know instantly or rapidly work out what those seemingly innocent, just-minding-their-own floaty business's berg-tips mean lays beneath: anywhere between a damaged hull and a sinking. Also known (but the more expansive saying to suit Narcs/La La Land) as, "If it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, is covered in feathers like a duck, swims like a duck, mates with another duck, goes for you like a (demented) duck, and everyone calls him Donald/her Daisy... it's a ruddyyyyfcknnn duuuuuck!" LOL Switching analogies, already she hurt you (offended is a wounding, same as the real-life version with the same sensations, we now know). But from arm's length. If she hadn't inadvertently done you a favour, by "dismissing you, peasant (run along now) *grin*" and you HAD continued shuffling closer, I reckon it wouldn't have been too long until you'd have for some non-existant reason except in her head - headbutted. (All together now: BECAUSE IT'S WHAT THEY DOOO.) (I forgot to mention, earlier: sometimes they're awful to everyone who's close or comes close, others have just one special person to be their emotional toilet (being nasty - puking their toxins - allows them to resume their fake Nice face and act in front of everyone else (I know!!!) because then it makes it really hard to convince everyone else that actually they're a nasty, insulting piece of superior, haughty, cold-fish work (or hot-fish - dominator - roars in your face instead, maybe even froths at the mouth like a lunatic if you're really lucky). Whichever... cold persistently applied to sensitive 'skin' equals culmulative, chronic skin burns as equally as hot.) But just as being targetted is a perverse compliment by proving you're in whatever way(s) impressive or magnetic, enough for a narc to want to own/possess (tame/control) you - yet also get mistaken for really compliant..subservient (the low-functionals get too many normal-healthies completely wrong), so is getting Discarded. And it matters not, whether in cowardly tip-toe out the room backwards fashion (to leave it vague, the bridge back to you any time, open) or sudden, formal/over-cool, "go, peasant, you are of no use to my royal highness now", followed, head-uckingly and outrage-ingly enough, by warming you back up (aaand repeat - warm-frosty-warm-frosty / Push-You-Pull-Me... / Jekyll & Hyde... "Narc relationships are like Groundhog Day" - google)...AS IF NOTHING HAD HAPPENED (huge symptom/tactic) AND YOU SHOULD PLAY IGNORE-THE-ELEPHANT TOO (and if you do you've passed your first Slave exam with flying colours)... which she did twice. Your timeline up there shows the WARM-COOL-WARM-COOL, rapidly repeated (into pervasive) PATTERN, MARRIED WITH said feature of, what happened actually didn't (pretend with me cos you never know if I'll turn again if you don't - Walking On Eggshells or Accepting Crumbs - go google (but - hardly ACCEPTANCE when they've got you hooked...tied to the wall). Trouble is, some benigns are how they are, deliberately, where some can't help it (haven't realised their cause-effect and gleefully harnessed the whole, narrowly scripted play as a conscious weapon yet)...it's a continuuim...think, minutely sliding scale up a ruler, not separate department store floors, meaning a benign can be cranked up (crank themselves up, usually) the severity scale to where they "turn into" a malignant - or a malig. cranked up to spath (while in that state, until they come down, although they often stay there as the new them). Or benigns can be misidentified and actually what you're seeing - and why you're seeing it so damn soon into the relationship/fauxlationship - even for them! - is because that's as good as they get (to you alone or everyone - see Lily's thread re auntie's disgusting fiance, "Von Crap") while they're trying but not quite managing to contain and cover all the ugliness up. Spillage...Dropping the ball...Their mask slipping.. those times are just a tiny sample of what lays beneath (the covering-up clothing). Yikes, eh? BUT, you see, your benign would want you to stay either being or merely playing the game and pretending to be a forever fan. How they look in public and fakebook is everything (fans or bans). The purely benign would have sounded still sooo loving - to ensure a continued good press out of your mouth - like, "but, oh, oh, busy-busy"...and cue you having gone beyond the being kept warm-on-the-side dawning only after weeks of nothing starts to feel like care-less neglect while she chases whatever shiny new thing. Not so, this one. This one was rude, cold (compared to the prior warmth) in that special, female, Malignant but still with a petty, naiive, clearly deluded half: "Everyone that meets me says I look just like Marilyn Monroe" (yuh - the dug-up version)....followed by "You talk too much" (walks off while you were literally mid-first-sentance, despite you'd patiently waited ages for your turn to speak/respond) ....or on the cusp of the two, a mild malignant who's behaved like this enough times to realise that when they treat someone like that, the effects, results and (immediate) ramifications suit them and their instant-gratification or -revenge agendas (kid - angry, mean, vindictive, spiteful one, obvs) down to the ground so why NOT automatically keep doing it? They claim it suits them and works for them just fine blah-blah, just because it sounds more impressive (they don't care if negatively (Supply - google)) than facing the fact they've no other choice BUT to "love it"... because they're incarcerated in that mal-programme, basically a cripple/paralysed and severely limited (narcs don't have the wiring to learn from experience/consequence, emotionally, meaning, even REAL kids are superior to them). ************ REALLY pleased for you that you plan to move - and back to your posse. Did she have anything to do with your taking this decision, was she at least inadvertently helpful as a catalyst? (She used YOU (and played headgames) so you ought get SOMETHING out of this, even if Fate stepped in to use her as its chesspiece and convert her into a blessing-in-disguise, a lemon into Lemonade.) Because, mate, she was ticking too many boxes. I was sat here - and again today, reading your latest - going, "tick, tick, tick, tick, omg tick, ugh tick, tick, then untick, wait, re-tick (nearly!), tick..." (along with mental and physical sensations - yeah, lucky me). And that's where it gets tricky because - are you seeing a many and varied (think Pick 'n Mix sweets) but MILD range, like a peppering/smattering of quite a wide area - or just the mere, elusive whiffs/flashes of what actually are tightly-corseted-in, inner ten tonne truck sized elements? ************** Amyway, I've dug this out for you: a potted masterclass by Dr Ramani, and you've got to have some Shahida Arabi as well, followed by the Narc's prayer (parallels to your experience, pointed out): ************************************************************************************************************************************************ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpjYtAB9i2w : Psychopath and Sociopath – The Master Class by Dr Ramani Durvasula (I don’t agree with absolutely everything she says, as doesn’t the top US expert on AsPD/Narcissistic-Sociopaths (forgotten her name, Dr Ellen or Erin or something, something... (lol), at Harvard) who reckons sociopaths CAN “love”(-ish) you, BUT, they have literally two-tracked /split minds, MEANING, just because one of their two mind “loves” you, their long-term partner/spouse, doesn’t mean you aren’t as fair-game as anyone else out there, including strangers, for being stolen from, a la, ‘It’s your own fault for leaving your purse lying around!’, or just their constantly, regardless of your protests and law-laying, helping themselves (assuming you could finger them for the theft, that is) or “borrowing X from you” (never handed back). That's, once they feel they've got their feet under your table and grown all cocky, anyway. ...Whereas, during honeymoon/initial love-bombing they’d insist YOU had the last piece of cake – by the time they start the Devaluation, they’re grabbing and eating it, without a word said and zero sign of guilt/shame (e.g. "*munch-munch*...You shoulda moved faster!"). Other than just a few differences in opinion - she's pretty spot-on about all of it IMO/E, and does know her Spath and Psycho onions too...she knows how that whole Cluster B group think and operate, meaning, she's a one-stop shop of what you need to know). *********************************************************************************************************************************************** Now Shahida: https://self-care-haven.com/2014/07/21/five-powerful-ways-abusive-narcissists-get-inside-your-head/ Extracts (and tone down the bits about romance to suit a fledgling friendship, and ditto regards the malignant-level narc (or not, and keep it where it is?...as the case may be as you read and spot similarities?): “You suffer a great deal of cognitive dissonance trying to reconcile the illusion the narcissist first presented to you with the tormenting behaviors he or she subjects you to. In order to cope with this cognitive dissonance, you might blame yourself for his or her abusive behavior and attempt to “improve” yourself when you have done nothing wrong, just to uphold your belief in the narcissist’s false self during the devaluation phase. During the discard phase, the narcissist reveals the true self – the genuinely abusive and abrasive personality beneath the shallow veneer rears its ugly head and you get a glimpse of the cruelty that was lurking within all along. You bear witness to his or her cold, callous indifference as you are discarded. You might think this is only a momentary lapse into inhumanity, but actually, it is as close you will ever get to seeing the narcissist’s true self. The manipulative, conniving charm that existed in the beginning is no more – instead, it is replaced by the genuine contempt that the narcissist felt for you all along. See, narcissists don’t truly feel empathy or love for others – so during the discard phase, they feel absolutely nothing for you except the excitement of having exhausted another source of supply. You were just another source of supply, so do not fool yourself into thinking that the magical connection that existed in the beginning was in any way real. It was an illusion, much like the identity of the narcissist was an illusion.” “...One popular manipulative technique abusers use is love bombing – flooding you with attention, praise, romantic gestures, adventures, and constant communication with them. They share their experiences freely with you to get you to trust them and reveal your own triggers and traumas; research shows that this escalating personal self-disclosure can actually enhance the sense of intimacy between two people (Aron et al. 1997). This false sense of intimacy can be alluring when you aren’t prioritizing your sense of safety or when you’re looking to fill an emotional void. Narcissistic partners want to take up a lot of your time in the early stages so they can get you accustomed to depending on them as a source of validation, comfort, and a sense of purpose. They make you a priority during the honeymoon phase so that you can start to make them a center of your world. Once you’re sufficiently invested, they will withdraw and devalue you. One way to prevent this cycle from even beginning in the first place is to prioritize yourself, your own safety, self-care, and goals. Allocate time very sparingly to strangers and do not spend a lot of your time and energy on someone in the early stages of dating – there is absolutely no rush to reveal your innermost secrets and insecurities to people you have just met. In the early stages of dating or getting to know anyone, slow down the process of physical and emotional intimacy even moreso than you usually do. When you make yourself less available, abusers tend to show their true colors. They will either back off because they realize you’re not an easy target who will give them narcissistic supply (praise, ego-strokes, admiration, sex, or resources), or become enraged that you’re not giving them all of your time and attention. This will also prevent them from being able to take up a space in your life without earning it with organic consistency and integrity over time.” “...Although there are also many narcissists and sociopaths who can leech off independent victims, financial independence can help when it comes to your ability to leave a toxic situation promptly and effectively. When you don’t depend on anyone to make money and you use your abundance to take care of yourself and not predators, you will always have the ability to control your own future. This is power, and pathologically envious narcissists are often turned off by it because it means they cannot easily control a victim. Take time to advance your professional goals, build good credit, have a home of your own and earn an income which fits the lifestyle and freedom you wish to achieve. Avoid giving out loans or being excessively generous with people who take a heightened interest in your income – this means they’re out to use you. You can make it clear you’re independent without offering up your resources. When you have your own mission, goals, dreams, career,and abundance, you don’t have to live in fear of the narcissistic partner taking these away from you or lower your own standards for what you expect out of a relationship just to have someone contribute financially. ...If you do decide to disclose anything to a potential dating partner early on, let it be a demonstration of core beliefs, values, and experiences which convey a strong sense of self and boundaries. You don’t have to actively verbalize how strong and powerful you are (narcissists tend to see through this) when you can show someone – you can show them by how you’ve handled situations in the past and by the beliefs you espouse. Without going into great detail, only briefly disclose experiences which hint at you exiting toxic situations with fervor and speed, which vividly capture the fact that you can cut ties without much regret. A stable, healthy and empathic partner will be intrigued by this, while a narcissistic partner will find it repugnant because they know they can’t exploit you for long. It is important to note that predatory individuals can also assess you for beliefs that may make you more vulnerable to manipulation. A narcissist will assume that if you are a spiritual and empathic person, for example, that your high sense of morality and conscientiousness would prevent you from leaving them even when they mistreat you. As Dr. George Simon notes in his book In Sheep’s Clothing, manipulative individuals look for conscientious people who are prone to rationalizing an abuser’s behavior or sympathizing with them to the point of making themselves vulnerable to further exploitation. As he says, “You might be the kind of person who is too willing to give a would-be manipulator the benefit of the doubt. When they do something to hurt you, you may be too ready to see their side of things and too willing to blame yourself when they go on the attack and throw you on the defensive.” Discovering your beliefs and core values are one of the ways a manipulator finds out whether you’re just the type they are looking for. If asked about your “spiritual beliefs” or anything which could help a narcissistic partner assess the level of guilt you might feel at not “forgiving” them or letting “bygones be bygones,” or beliefs about “soulmates,” be sure to qualify your response with appropriate limitations. For example, once when I was asked by a pathological liar whether I believed “we are all connected,” I responded with, “I believe some people are less connected than others.” Needless to say, this highly manipulative individual was not a fan of this response. If you must reference spirituality, do so in a way that frames how your spiritual beliefs have allowed you to discover your personal power and the importance of boundaries. When you are able to show that your morality and integrity does not prevent you from getting rid of toxic people from your life, you are more likely to be seen as a difficult target. ************************************************************************************************************************************************* (That last paragraph in particular - "oh, yeah, baby!) ************* The Narcissist’s Creed aka Prayer: That didn’t happen. And if it did, it wasn’t that bad. And if it was, that’s not a big deal. And if it is, that’s not my fault. And if it was, I didn’t mean it. And if I did, you deserved it. ...which covers various elements of NPD, namely: Denial of any reality outside of their own Minimisation of your experience or its severity Invalidation of your feelings Refusal to take any responsibility Gaslighting and inverting the truth Blaming you for the entire experience Also, when it comes to you trying to be honest about how hurt and confused/whatever their treatment has just made you feel - contradicting you in a way to suggest you don’t know your own mind like THEY DO (gimmie the Crucifix!), which you overhear them saying as parents to upset kids, e.g.: “Aww, no yooou ddddo nooot feel like X, Y, Z, you’re just ((one or all of these)) exaggerating, being over-sensitive, over-dramatic, attention-seeking, saying it to get me back, tired, imagining it, not getting it, someone told you to say that, trying to make me feel guilty*... (all of which, usually being their Projection! - google). ************ Joke for ya: Q. Did you hear about that new play about a narcissistic opera singer? A. It’s called “Me-Me-Me!”. ************ PS We don't any of us these days "have time". When it's someone with whom we want to spend time, and/or because, being fond of them we miss them, we MAKE time. PPS Those friends who couldn't see below the iceberg tips of "not that hostile or aggressive" clearly need to gen up on the NPD/AsPD brigade, including what bad behaviours look like at the point where they begin to get let loose here and there by the (secret) narc (benign or malig) into the relationship/friendship, so that, in future, they'll know automatically where to look and focus from within those murky depths, and, shocked, see the hidden magnitude - possibly vertically as well as horizontally, of the underside of that seemingly innocent "little" iceberg floating atop the surface. They emphasised "sound",...how it sounded, failing to take into account (which most people do) dem actions, actions, ACTIONS. Ergo, thought logically it must be you (or remain a mystery forever) even partly, meaning, you still had any power to fix it. Yet in a way, they were right: not overtly, no. COVERTLY (with just mixed and vague flashes of overt...which she herself then went and invalidated...then validated...then re-invalidated...). She'd have made you miz and diz. Fix it (in LaLa Land) = shuffle away increasingly to where they are no longer close enough to cause you pain, or just end it/constructively dismiss yourself, and never look back. And that's it. Nope. Nothing wrong with you (I've been observing, frisking...), an awful lot right with you, actually - you're a gentleman, even if NOT an actual, real-life Saint with literally no limit to their patience(!) - and would make a lovely male friend or boyfriend (to anyone normal who shares your chemistry). But this one just doesn't have the brainparts and pathways to appreciate or care about anyone, ever, not even you. Just her. People are by whatever degree just tools and stepladders or secret, human toilets into which to purge their secretly constantly-created and collected up, toxic bile so as to enable (ENABLER - google) them to always look good "on-stage, in front of their public" (containing other, fresh, potential lackeys). YOU can't make someone behave like THAT?...you're not a WIZARD, either! (Wouldn't that be so cool, though...omg...) These friends of yours clearly cared and meant well, though, so that's good. But try to keep an eye out for people who've almost been through what you narrowly escaped/didn't make the grade for (baaad fan/slave! LOL). *********** So when is this happy move scheduled to happen?

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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"Did she have anything to do with your taking this decision, was she at least inadvertently helpful as a catalyst?" Kinda. Actually, the whole friend group made me feel like I had some company. Now with things going back to normal, people are moving back to the cities with their jobs. I live in a smallish city/town. Not everyone knows everyone small but a nascent city. So there's nothing really to do here. But it's cheap with WFH and I am trying to save money for Masters. "Because, mate, she was ticking too many boxes. I was sat here - and again today, reading your latest - going, "tick, tick, tick, tick, omg tick, ugh tick, tick, then untick, wait, re-tick (nearly!), tick..." (along with mental and physical sensations - yeah, lucky me). And that's where it gets tricky because - are you seeing a many and varied (think Pick 'n Mix sweets) but MILD range, like a peppering/smattering of quite a wide area - or just the mere, elusive whiffs/flashes of what actually are tightly-corseted-in, inner ten tonne truck sized elements? " I am not sure about that too. I mean I agree with a lot of what you quoted from the blogpost. As I mentioned, my friends flagged some weird behaviors about her even before the stranger things happened. Even I am mentally going, "Yes this particular thing sounds exactly like her" while reading the post but sometimes we easily retrofit qualities onto others (?). Plus, I can't get around the fact that she lacks empathy totally. Because I remember in college she did a thesis about animals getting hurt by climate change and well people who generally have empathy for animals do tend to have it for humans also. Even in the present, she often mentioned how she was sad because a tree in her neighborhood fell down due to the storm or how she was really happy seeing little children going to school again. So, it is hard to believe that there was anything clinically wrong with her. I know it sounds like I am defending her but I am just not able to reconcile my experience with what I am reading. I'll mention below what rang true with me. "They share their experiences freely with you to get you to trust them and reveal your own triggers and traumas; research shows that this escalating personal self-disclosure can actually enhance the sense of intimacy between two people (Aron et al. 1997). This false sense of intimacy can be alluring when you aren’t prioritizing your sense of safety or when you’re looking to fill an emotional void." So I am a little socially awkward and it is hard to guess tone in texts especially for everyone. Early on, I thought she is not interested in talking to me because even though she wrote detailed messages, she hardly ever asked me anything. But she would respond in good detail about her experiences if I asked her something. I thought right maybe she is just shy and so I kept going with it. I revealed a lot about myself in the process as well. "...If you do decide to disclose anything to a potential dating partner early on, let it be a demonstration of core beliefs, values, and experiences which convey a strong sense of self and boundaries." This is kind of ironic because that is what attracted ME towards HER. She always talked about how she tries to enforce boundaries whether it be with friends or people in the workplace. She seemed really self-aware, woke (in a positive sense) and self-assured in her personality. "Those friends who couldn't see below the iceberg tips of "not that hostile or aggressive" clearly need to gen up on the NPD/AsPD brigade . . ." Oh no they were saying that about ME. That I was NOT actually "hostile" or "aggressive" as I mentioned in my original post. It was all in my head. "So when is this happy move scheduled to happen?" Soon. I am going to live there for a few days/weeks to check out the city then maybe by December I'll shift there. PS - Remember that third guy that had nothing to do with the whole debacle? I did talk to him yesterday and as I suspected, she removed him too from all social media.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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"Did she have anything to do with your taking this decision, was she at least inadvertently helpful as a catalyst?" Kinda. Actually, the whole friend group made me feel like I had some company. Now with things going back to normal, people are moving back to the cities with their jobs. I live in a smallish city/town. Not everyone knows everyone small but a nascent city. So there's nothing really to do here. But it's cheap with WFH and I am trying to save money for Masters. "Because, mate, she was ticking too many boxes. I was sat here - and again today, reading your latest - going, "tick, tick, tick, tick, omg tick, ugh tick, tick, then untick, wait, re-tick (nearly!), tick..." (along with mental and physical sensations - yeah, lucky me). And that's where it gets tricky because - are you seeing a many and varied (think Pick 'n Mix sweets) but MILD range, like a peppering/smattering of quite a wide area - or just the mere, elusive whiffs/flashes of what actually are tightly-corseted-in, inner ten tonne truck sized elements? " I am not sure about that too. I mean I agree with a lot of what you quoted from the blogpost. As I mentioned, my friends flagged some weird behaviors about her even before the stranger things happened. Even I am mentally going, "Yes this particular thing sounds exactly like her" while reading the post but sometimes we easily retrofit qualities onto others (?). Plus, I can't get around the fact that she lacks empathy totally. Because I remember in college she did a thesis about animals getting hurt by climate change and well people who generally have empathy for animals do tend to have it for humans also. Even in the present, she often mentioned how she was sad because a tree in her neighborhood fell down due to the storm or how she was really happy seeing little children going to school again. So, it is hard to believe that there was anything clinically wrong with her. I know it sounds like I am defending her but I am just not able to reconcile my experience with what I am reading. I'll mention below what rang true with me. "They share their experiences freely with you to get you to trust them and reveal your own triggers and traumas; research shows that this escalating personal self-disclosure can actually enhance the sense of intimacy between two people (Aron et al. 1997). This false sense of intimacy can be alluring when you aren’t prioritizing your sense of safety or when you’re looking to fill an emotional void." So I am a little socially awkward and it is hard to guess tone in texts especially for everyone. Early on, I thought she is not interested in talking to me because even though she wrote detailed messages, she hardly ever asked me anything. But she would respond in good detail about her experiences if I asked her something. I thought right maybe she is just shy and so I kept going with it. I revealed a lot about myself in the process as well. "...If you do decide to disclose anything to a potential dating partner early on, let it be a demonstration of core beliefs, values, and experiences which convey a strong sense of self and boundaries." This is kind of ironic because that is what attracted ME towards HER. She always talked about how she tries to enforce boundaries whether it be with friends or people in the workplace. She seemed really self-aware, woke (in a positive sense) and self-assured in her personality. "Those friends who couldn't see below the iceberg tips of "not that hostile or aggressive" clearly need to gen up on the NPD/AsPD brigade . . ." Oh no they were saying that about ME. That I was NOT actually "hostile" or "aggressive" as I mentioned in my original post. It was all in my head. "So when is this happy move scheduled to happen?" Soon. I am going to live there for a few days/weeks to check out the city then maybe by December I'll shift there. PS - Remember that third guy that had nothing to do with the whole debacle? I did talk to him yesterday and as I suspected, she removed him too from all social media.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Oh I forgot to mention the final covert-aggressive thing. Just after we had this fight, I opened my Instagram and was scrolling through everyone's stories. In her story she had put up posts about "asking questions about boundaries instead of disrespecting them" and "honesty need not be brutal it can be gentle too" and "walking away from situations". It might have been a co-incidence but the timing was nothing short of predominant.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Oh ugger...I timed-out before I sent...lost it... Best retype while it's fresh. Heya, Excuse delay. I have zero bloody control over my own schedule (still). In no particular order (I don't think?): 1. You didn't get shot, you dodged the bullet (because she decided you - AND YOURS, going by your PS) weren't Fan material to her, the Superstar. 2. A superstar doesn't ask questions about the other. They naturally assume that you, the underling (fan), are in rapture and want to hear them reel off an (alleged) CV of squishy-boo-boo-ness, (mainly) (noted). Plus, seeming bragging like that, about how wonderfully squidy they are, is NORMALLY a sign - in some women - that they're desperate to impress (their *nurturing side) to a degree that hints at future evolution into the romantic domain (and *bubbies). If it's not just you she deleted*, then, it wasn't just you she tried to hook. (*Her method is the Guillotine - notice?) 3. She's a benign but with scope to develop into a malignant. Her ablity to go from warm and fuzzy to freezing and (backhandedly and underhandedly) prickly, like you two HADN'T just shared intimate details in an intimate setting (interweb) as makes treating you like that now hugely inappropriate(!), is what makes me think so. "Who are you and what have you done with X?!" - symptom. Giant one. 4. Even benigns are giant hypocrites. You, mere underling, don't get to believe, think, do, say, need, expect, demand, etc. as THEY do. It's not ¡do as I do, it's do as I say'. And '...or think' (in an actual r-ship you're punished for not being a mind-reader). 5. Genuinely caring - or even respectful - types (Empaths/normal-healthies) - don't act like nothing (good) just happened, nor that nothing (bad) just happened. Ref warm to freezing. They don't press The Re-Set Button. All these things are what narcs or those with narcissistic traits do - just to differing degrees, frequency, ways. But she dun a pattern, innit - so - got her (and not just for that). 6. Likes animals, eh? Just not the two-legged variety. The four-legged pander and do as they're told however...that's why narcs like them. And what a great way to get Brownie Points with the test examiner - choose TWO hot topics of your squishies, and ones that pull on the heartstrings (all as increase positive regard by the examiner and thereby increase generosity in the examiner's scorings - they're only human). So you can't go by potential red-herrings like that. 7. Would YOU have...? In that same situaton, towards another? - one who'd (you'd have thought!) been a lifeline during lockdown? Use yourself as a template. 8. Nobody who was such a kind, caring, animal-loving, etc., etc. could go as mean and cold and ungrateful and NOTHING BONDING JUST HAPPENED, like she did. Nope. Kind is as Kind does. Normals are kind. Even the ones not high on the empathy scale are at least respectful. She was neither. 9. Being asked lots of questions and/or hogging the microphone with describing all your positive points, at SOME point duringtime makes Normal-Healthies "snap out of it" (as per their healthy programming - GO TO "WAKEY-WAKEY") and start to give questions BACK to reciprocate the basically same amount of air-time so as not to see themselves as GREEDY and unable to share (which we learn as toddlers). In future if you see what is the monolithic symptoms - ongoing lack or absence of Reciprocation - RUN. Run before they start making cocktails in your head that are highly addictive and make you want to say or not want to stay but stay anyway. I'll pause, see if I can remember what else I- oh, wait up, yes. It's very common to have had your Urge To Take Stock Of Myself & Look In The Mental Full-Length Mirror 'app' buried in your mental intray when an idiot (or many idiots) drops a ream of toxic nonsense papers. It gets delayed. You maybe USED to be socially a bit inept but - I thought, HUH?, what's he talking about?! I don't think you're socially inept. I think you're part geek-part independent-minded rebel, a bit intelligectual (never lost for topics to talk about, e.g.), i.e. the cool type of slightly geeky. You dare to question everything (tick!) - even more than once (lol stop showing-off) - that's all. Some (cough) don't like it. Truth-seekers, do. I've found you perfectly easy to talk to. So, up her bum AGAIN. I would really, strongly advise you to consciously examine who you are today, since you clearly, EVIDENTLY, need to do a stock-take, have a really hard think about what you No Longer Are or Have Developed Into. It'll expand your confidence, right in-time for December! :-) I'll pause now...add things as and when they re-occur to me...

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Oh, yes, the Hypocrisy. They can go through the vocal and some acted-out motions of being a caring, concerned type, WHILST treating someone else over there, really meanly. It doesn't work like that if your programme is healthy. Normals can't do that. It's just too rude! It only works like that if you're a Narc (any level). Also, case of Lost In Translation noted, lol - sorry. No, you weren't hostile and aggressive, no. Suggest if that malarchy happens again, even with a Normal who's lost or dropped his self-control, you literally just type: Who are you and what have you done with (name)? Or - Gosh, have I caught you at a really bad time? Or - Excuse-me for not having had a clue there's two of you in there! ...and use them as your basis for asking them, why the persona switcheroo all of a sudden? Co-operate, is what normal-healthies do. And making people needy enough to become susceptible to trawling malignant narcs is what Lockdowns do. 'Blood in the shark-infested water'. Another thing I've remembered I said: it's natural for your mind to not want to grasp everything as puts her into proper context and identification yet because your mind IS, granted, BUILT FOR but is NOT PROGRAMMED for comprehending and filing-away all this shite in one go. It's a bit like me asking you to put your ankle behind your ear...only the repeated trying makes it possible (which, luckily, takes less time than the physical version AND improves flexibility nonetheless). Time and No More Her will make your primitive mind feel it's finally safe to let out more jigsaw pieces of data, which, pretty soon will join together, IN the right order, and have you needing to note the new pictures and get them double-checked. "I've just remembered something else s/he said!...". Read some more Shahida - or youtube some more Dr Ramani - or others, some male therapist once-victims too. As well as me/here, I mean.

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"Oh I forgot to mention the final covert-aggressive thing. Just after we had this fight, I opened my Instagram and was scrolling through everyone's stories. In her story she had put up posts about "asking questions about boundaries instead of disrespecting them" HAH! What, like not headucking someone by out-of-nowhere-and-nothing (quite the opposite - out of an emotionally intimate tete-a-tete), presenting your opposite twin, Frosty The Snowwoman? ""and "honesty need not be brutal it can be gentle too"" HAH! She obviously only means WHAT COMES AT HER. "One rule for you - other rules or NO rules for them!" (tick). ""and "walking away from situations". It might have been a co-incidence but the timing was nothing short of predominant."" Ah, I see. That 'ethos' and 'missive' is how she automatically condemns every potential "fan-slave" as the guilty party who now DESERVE to be executed once things (she) inevitably turn sour but the victim isn't taking it lying down (bad slave - dismissed!). Psychologically-speaking, she has not just HER judgement over "your crime" but THESE SAYINGS'/THEIR AUTHORS'S PRE-RUBBERSTAMPING to back her up, in terms of, how you've merely REACTED (not rolled over, dared to pelt questions) has somehow become your having behaved in ways directly parallel to these boundary embargos! (Nay...because SHE'S the one who starts it.) Seen that lots of times before. That's a set-up (tick!) as comes under Narcissistic Triangulation...albeit, it's a very diluted-down version of Triangulation compared to her nastier-scarier brethren. Yup, her "public" profiles (adverts) are not just false window-dressing, are they. They have actual props - like a court judge's robes and gavel! That's quite "serfistikaytid" for a start Narc, actually. Because this set-up is pasted like a poster over the very door to the room in which her interpersonal crimes take place. That's "Narcissistic Blame-Shifting". But PRE-EMPTIVELY, whereas, milds/benigns don't plan how they behave, certainly not to that extent. Hmm.... Yeah, she's definitely one. But she's an amateur, still. Yet with rotten scope to go further up that rotten totem to actual Malignant, if she's not careful, as I say. I'm glad you foiled her. That'll put her off her stride and make her trawling for fans/victims less successful (or worse...could be?). That must be why Fate put her your way. Not JUST yours, obvs. If we're all chess-pieces on its chessboard then it's a multi-multi-dimensional one, I'm sure, meaning, this introducing you both on the board must have been part of a set of manoeuvres intended for various pawn-repositionings - or vice versa. I'm sure an unseen chessplayer on a board like that, doesn't do moves and tasks one-by-one (hahah!). If you're interested, 'interview' your friend to see what directional shift HE's done or is considering, with her as the catalyst?...you never know? (PS you might think this bit's mystical tripe but, trust me, once you're middle-aged or onwards, you'll get it and how it all works...oh BOY will you, lol!) But it is well known, now, that Intermittent Reinforcement (sweet after mean), releases a far more powerful dose of self-made Dopamine & Friends (e.g. Oxytocin) as addicts you once the placing you on a pedestal, love-bombing has done it's (black) magic. So it's this: get you high and wanting more and more....now you're addicted, starts tormenting you with the drug-filled needle. This scares your inner animal (he's the one addicted, Conscious You hates yourself for 'rising to the bait'/falling for it), so the former makes you decide (or want to) thereafter to suck-up to the nasty drug-peddlar in the mistaken belief that being kept happy will keep him sweet and away from nastiness. Nope. He needs to puke and only a human toilet come punching-bag will do - end of. And sucking-up or keeping them contented only feeds their arrogant, over-entitled monster which makes them WORSE towards you than ever..."they get cockier and cockier" if you never fight back or outfox or wrong-foot and instead show fear and pandering and walking on eggshells. If you don't ditch them they become your job (being tortured...for no wages)...they have you spending most of your time completely obsessed with how to get her sweet before your next shot... So anyway, if come the next dose s/he decides NOT to torment, but be sweet again - now the dose/your Dopamine release is greater than ever (the relief, the relief!). Now you're even MORE addicted than if she'd just dosed you routinely without any nonsense. The closest thing is, the Fruit Machine addict (with the Narc, the fruit machine). This is also why it's vital to detox/de-slime COMPLETELY after any prolonged interaction with one of these. They do things to you that you can't even feel and wouldnt' have a clue about. Well, anyway, there we go then, so cheers for that extra, especially-identifying bit at the end, there... Paints herself Rosy, behaves Blackly. Can't see it...can't see that chasmic dichotomy. Or maybe can? - that's the only bit I myself am not sure over. Yet. ...Unless you start to remember more? You will because your mind wouldn't dare give it to you in one hit to handle, and certainly not until it were SURE-sure-sure the wolf had completely and utterly gone.

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Do use this time to keep learning about it, though. I'm serious. They come in threes. Knowledge is power - it opens your eyes wider so you see mmore and react better/faster...Hyo become lak Sensai, ha... lol (but true).

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Also... A "warning" on her front door, like that, is also going to anaesthetise all fan-candidates who enter. Think about it: you don't expect someone spouting, basically defensive rules like that to be a boundary-smasher herself, do you. So that's the Pity Ploy (TICK!), this case, being loop-broadcast 24-7 at everyone and anyone (cor, she's lazy!?) rather than having to be said conversationally to each new individual each time during each initial schmooze (- ah, too many interviewees, look!). Yeah, no, you see?... Even I'm pendulum-swinging now...one minute I see malignant - careful planning, but the next minute am surprised by the incredible triviality of her aim ("fwiendz n fanz"), which screams Benign. ...Unless there's a lot more to her but you and your "colleague" just never saw it because ...pff?...you're not rich, powerful, influential enough out in public?? Keep talking and recalling.

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And it doesn't just belong to Triangulation, either. This ticks the box labelled, Always turning their crime around to become YOUR crime against THEM, or put another way, Narcs want you to believe that really it's your REACTION to their abuse (or attempt) that's the hot, problematic topic that must be right now discussed (chaotically, illogically and nonsensically so you can't grasp to argue, any point) and "in fact" is the underlying cause of your right-now complaint, rather than their (always unwarranted and undeserved) abusive behaviour. (There's "Game-Playing" and then there's these bozos. Some gameplay naturally, unthinkingly, automatically...some would anyway but have joined the dots of why person A will do that IF I say/do this in this way, etc., etc. and now can't NOT do it but either pretend to do it deliberately or give it a good go until, maybe, they manage to call it at will - AS WELL (cuckoo-cuckoo-cuckoo!)), which is a bit like being shackled to a compulsive, stinky, in-your-face burper whom the rest of the time does some at you deliberately. Nnnnice, eh.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Tsk - sorry - I said socially inept when I meant awkward. Well - you're neither IME, so it doesn't matter.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Yeah I watched some of Dr. Ramani's videos about narcissism and got more interested in learning about the covert one as you mentioned which seems to fit the bill. This particular video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzO4-HDs3sw) by the channel Surviving Narcissism was the AHA! moment for me. A lot of the points that he says ticked something in my brain. - Humble bragging , avoiding vulnerability, lack of curiosity about others (already mentioned) - Not being able to talk to people who are too different (yup I do remember one or two instances of this. Plus, just assuming that the other guy was also a sexist jerk) - Rigid with time management (Yup checks out totally) - Worried about perception (This is tricky because it's hard to distinguish genuine concern for others as compared to concern out of worrying about how they'll perceive you) "If you're interested, 'interview' your friend to see what directional shift HE's done or is considering, with her as the catalyst?...you never know?" Oh he didn't really care about it. He said that she must've thought that we were not sticking up for R against the jerk guy (which we were and even R would tell you so). So, forget about me but she somehow assumed that guy is "complicit". Meanwhile, R is friends again wit the jerk guy but not that anyone cares lol. But yeah the good guy doesn't care really because I suppose he didn't really have a one on one friendship with her. More on acquaintance level I suppose. The not so surprising thing is that learning about covert narcissism makes me think that I have encountered at least three people who are that way (and with whom I've had unpleasant experiences). I don't know if it is the classic empath-narc pair because some friends have told me I am very empathetic. I'm definitely sensitive (both emotionally and with the five senses) so could be.

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Hey-hey (*Play tape apologising for the lateness again-again-again*. Extra-long response to compensate...) Yeah, I've checked-out Les Carter. Confess I find his vids too slow and long-winded for me. He could pack a lot more in (...as the actress said to the bishop) (or, as the bishops said to the poor, innocent actress - either way, LOL...although never usually where one (PD-ed) party even COMES to the relationship table with ALREADY a far greater position of power than the other ....eh, Johnny Depp-cough-what?-nothing). (His issues are bigger and more in-play than her issues...just sayin'...) (he even stole the jury's and everyone's attention by drawling UN-characteristically-for-him slowly and leaving mini-frustrating gaps as force the listener to have to focus and concentrate HARDER which will IMPACT harder, which could BIAS them round that jury table - COMMON NARC TACTIC, I THINK YOU'LL FIND). But either I digress or there's some bell of pertinence to your situation that's ringing but my consciousness has yet to receive the Memo.) Yes, humble bragging is like name-dropping but where what's getting dropped (and, in hindsight, you realise - needlessly!) is their fantasy or uber-over-exaggerated/twisted mentions of good deeds (ones they did purely because it made them look good or gained them something...or even someone else's that they know, entirely, possibly one of their past victims ("Stealing the Victim Cloak")). E.g. abusive husband mows elderly neighbour's lawn (probably the front one so that all the other neighbours can witness it) every Sunday for months or years, while behind closed doors, being controlling and spiteful towards his wife/partner on a regular basis. It's all just a Front: the wife can't then ever approach the neighbour(s) for help or emotional empathy and support because from his/her POV, the narc is just a really nice, kind, thoughtful guy, ergo the wife must just be a bit disturbed or a nasty drama-queen - the problematic element in that relationship. (This - and worse - even turning YOUR people against you - comes under the Narcissistic Smear Campaign that many narcs start, unbeknownst to the victim, the minute the fauxlationship begins.) "Worried about perception (This is tricky because it's hard to distinguish genuine concern for others as compared to concern out of worrying about how they'll perceive you)" Aka Impressions Management aka the mere mask of sanity. You normally tell with actions - and CHAINS of actions - and then comparing a chain to other chains. When you have a long enough chain/set of - whether or not they're acting out of altriusm or uber-selfishness, soon reveals itself. HOWEVER - BECAUSE secretly you're to whatever degree their job, their livelihood, the Sociopath tends to put the work in (unlike his lesser brethren who just go blah-blah-blah but either never deliver anything or never finish what they started). ..and then waits for the hooking to be complete before drip-drip / splosh-splosh / boom! - ceasing (and bringing in things that were never agreed to nor ever would have). If you’re their Living then that sort of Medium or Long-Con prep is worth their while. Another way is to have someone healthy to COMPARE to. You can use your moralistic self ("Would *I* ever say/do such a thing, especially in that situation?".).. or, if you've lost trust in yourself by then, any counterpart to them, even from your past. Narc Spaths can bust a gut for as much as up to 2 whole years (actual HF malig. Psychos can go DECADES, I KID YOU NOT – think someone far smoother than Jimmy Saville...think Epstein) before starting to pull the mask off or yanking it off in one go to their “him/her-indoors”. (There's "shocking", and then there's that - Mind-Effing - especially if you're long-married to them - or they do it on your sodding wedding night(!) which - because malignants are also sadistic - a lot of Spaths are known to do. E.g. you thought you married a healthy lady or gentleman but suddenly they've transformed into a semi-gorilla in a foul mood, trashing the hotel-room and calling you horrid, soul-stabbing names as well!). This tends to happen when they've grown very cocky, very quickly, over their hold over you. In addition, it's when the Spath can't keep his/her initially-impressive act up for a minute longer: character-acting 24-7 is exhausting. And probably also because they didn't ever fancy you (not their type) or even like you (just you being you makes them feel pathologically wrong/inferior/envious thus compelled to get with you to bring you down as well as steal your stuff and psychological welfare)...even not like you one bit, possibly the distinct opposite...but beggars-romantic conmen can't be choosers so they just didn't happen to strike it lucky that way, the day they were prowling for their next/another victim). When that's the case (hate/resent you for being a Normal-Healthy-Giver or even a Diamond) - keeping up the act will have been especially gruelling so they will definitely have shown flashes of their truer, horrid self (Spaths do it deliberately on top of accidentally - to subliminally-sadistically taunt and shock you), basically dropping the ball here and there during initial Love-Bombing (normally the Honeymoon Period) stage. If you're patently a Diamond you'll have high morals and standards for how you treat and expect to be treated. So this makes you offputtingly hard work to a fledgling but NOT to the over-cocky or veteran-cocky. The latter two need a big challenge (taking over normals and normal empaths gets boring, like everything else in their emotionally-empty or -absent life). ************* "Love"-Bombing" with Interittent Reinforcement/Trauma-Bonding (in R's case - early-onset) is where you got to before disembarking her "crazy train", despite above-table/on-radar it was 'just' friendship. The insinuations, implications and intonations of potential romance, came UNDER-the-table/off-radar (- depending on how drunk you were). GOOGLE "NARCISSISTIC FUTURE-FAKING" but in conjunction with AMBIENT ABUSE. The latter is where she didn't just show you unpredictable irritation directly, but had also created a mini-cultural/atmospheric pressure and "warning" of thereby more punishment where that'd come from...= AMBIENT CONTROL featuring Ambient Future-Faking). She used Overt and Covert AND Ambient, simultaneously...and is collecting people – think about it. (And ask yourself FOR WHAT PURPOSE?) That is no Learner malignant/spath, I'm telling you. You just didn't get tricked into her ‘dungeon dressed as sweetshop’.) With that Fakebook set-up of hers, I wouldn’t be surprised if it somehow came to light that she goes around asking everyone in-turn (in private) to lend her a Tenner. ************* Also, the person you don't yet trust has to be someone who has zero to gain or lose by what they advise or do for you. (LIKE ON HERE. We're trustworthy automatically, for the fact that Richard and his staff, plus those who make this forum their home or regular hotel (veteran advisers who know their particular onions) do this for free/charity, non-profit-making.) Time and enough actions whereat any "Pervasive Pattern" starts to emerge always tells if the flashes themselves went over your head or got excused away with "Plausible Deniability" (go Google). ***It's all got to be a Pervasive (drip-drip) Pattern OR a bundle that constitutes what WOULD have been a pattern of drips had it not (for whatever unreasonable reason) just been dumped on you in one go (splosh!).*** Or if you like – scratch-scratch...chip-chip...HACK!… Lily’s Auntie’s squeeze (Von Crap) was clearly under huge pressure, the rate he tried to rush things. The minute he moved in - he HACKED at her confidence. Even in public. (“What is a classy woman like you doing with a scumbag ahole like him?!” / “I know, I knowwww….I don’t knowww, but I’m hating it too, it’s so embarrassing and humiliating!”) She just knew the relationship and set-up – HE - was making her feel bad more than feel good, now.) Using the iceberg analogy again: ice-berg tips and now mid-regions, constantly, daily, bumping into your boat, scratching up your hull, to where holes WILL inevitably soon enough appear, and/OR one or a quick run of massive, weighty CRASHES into your hull as potentially sinks you and leaves no room for any doubt, including what type of person(ish) they are. A giant iceberg. Silent-but-deadly, or Noisy-but-deadly. ************** It's obviously better and easier to avoid getting involved with them in the first place (no shit, Sherlock, LOL). If you can. So that is WHY you mustn't rush or let yourself be rushed. Even if you're a normal yet so keen on this one, you're allowing yourself to be the rusher! Don't and Don't. You're not going to remember a lengthy drive through towns and countryside in terms of landmarks and order of appearance, etc., going at 300mph, are you. One, you're already either too exhilarated (or .freaked) to think straight...plus you've been Love-Bombed so are (imperceptible to yourself) drunk... Everything's just a blur. Remove 3rd, 4th, 5th and 5th Gear so they can't speed. Either they do slow down OR they try to bit-by-tiny-bit speed back up again. BUT in a lower gear, too low for the speed, the engine will be screeching so loudly (might even explode) that you'll be snapped-out of your drunken semi-sleep to a state of alarm - bubble firmly burst - and know to dump them, quick (because they're trying to deprive you of your senses...your normal wherewithal, including deciding to dump now, early-in, while it's easier and less painful). Disabling his higher gear positions is a therefore a Win/Win. And again, even any HEALTHY new relationship (of any type with the palpable potential for especial closeness) can only benefit from taking it slower and steadier – a habit people foolishly got out of during the 70s-80s (thanks to the socio-cultural pressure of contraception, Hippy Free Love, your dating bureaus then websites, plus increased, over-hurried-and-harried pace of life leaving parents no time to explain all this stuff to their adolescents/teenagers. ************** The Litmus of All Litmuses and Klaxons of all Warning Klaxons (but which self-signalling only the never-slimed or now-completely-slime-free are capable of trusting - just ZERO SLIME): I really do think the best way to stay self-protected is to stay aware of how the other person make you feel or leaves you feeling. If bad, then politely end the interaction, even if (depending on degree) you have to forego your usual manners to do so. But you can't trust your intuition or gut-instinct if their sirens and flashing Blue lights have become suffocated or muffled beneath narc slime (present and/or past), let alone the confidence, even with legitimacy, call it quits on a date. So that's why you must - MUST - take much longer time to grieve before dating or going out to meet new people again (unless it's where people socialise at arm's length - a night class, for example) - meantime, the slime is also getting ample chance to (sloowly) slide off for-good...plus getting another, one or two hour's daily grieving done/sat through, is what is best fr causing the slime to turn liquid enough to slide off to begin with. Obviously if you already had patches of old slime before the new slime got slathered on - this is your chance to finally 'grieve out', i.e. allow yourself to sit and feel bad feelings (and punch cushions and go for a run or dance hard - to release feelgood chems i.e. natural painkillers) for decent periods per day or every-other or even just one day per week (not good to repress, though). This grief-accommodation leads naturally to UNDERSTANDING and SOLVING (vice-versa)- of any prior confusion(s) that stepping into Adulthood DIDN'T automatically put paid to, of any major or chronic traumas from your entire past, including injuries that seem too petty to re-visit but ARE NOT - e.g., even that nasty piece of work kid, as far back as your Toddler Group or Nursery! (- "There's always, ALWAYS one, spoiling things for the rest"). The wound was still a wound – even IF some adults would deem it petty. But kids are Cute, only to adults – NOT to other kids. *************** But anyway - again, you didn't get that far (phew). You got out at Chinese-Burn Central (LOL - but also NOT Lol...they're painful - remember?). And you can say it was she who ditched YOU, BUT...you were supposed to think that (because she's the sneaky, ghosting type). After all - AFTER ALL - you COULD have fawned, apologised, pandered, insta-forgiven if you'd really-really wanted to - and DEFINITELY would have if you'd badly NEEDED to. It was because you made a BAD slave...questioned, answered-back... DIDN'T CHANGE YOUR THINKING (TO AGREE WITH HER DELUSIONAL VERSION - which includes, Everything is YOUR Fault* (or you get beaten-up) - just for starters(!)). And that could be said to be Constructive Dismissal. Innit. (You came close, though – look at the evidence in your title: "Am I in the wrong here - should I apologise?" So you were right on the EDGE of her rabbit-hole, TEMPTED to take the blame (for the sense of responsibility, thus control, to fix things). Well done for having come here at that precise point.) So evidently your bonce is too hard (hurrah!) plus has a BIG Personal Space around it (streamers!). Independent-minded and STRONG-minded. Absolutely Not Slave Material. (Be careful not to 'nut' any lampposts or you'll probably leave a huge dent, LOL...because: ) NOW NOTE: ENSURING the Narc believes that they are the one who has Discarded you/the relationship, when, actually, it could be said that you have rejected them naturally-passively or *naturally passive-aggressively by how you reacted (e.g. kept questioning) - or if you prefer, by how you refused to automatically lie down and take it PLUS refused the option of just Blocking and never again bothering with, which all equates to, you refused to walk away until you got your Closure - i.e. refused to have your hurt dismissed - is the very best way of ensuring they never start (or cease) their Hoovering/stalking. *********** Here's another thing to remember; Although a Giver (unlike a narc) doesn't Give to Get - all humans' inner animals have an internal Scoreboard on their wall. It's not meant to come into play as an issue with another human - and tends not to, as a rule. So if you, someone who's normally a giant Giver, is even FEELING any uneven-ness or downright one-sided-ness of scoreboard, FEELING SHORT-CHANGED AND RESENTFUL - that in itself is Klaxon enough. Put succinctly: you, the Giver, don't expect to see instant or eventual gratitude aka appreciation. BUT NEITHER DO YOU EXPECT TO SEE THE DISTINCT OPPOSITE (let alone any other, extra, shoddy treatment meantime!). And there's the difference that makes ALL the difference. Example re-leveller if they try to turn it around onto you: 'Oh, I didn't know we were keeping score!' 'I wasn't "keeping it" – normally with people, it stays out of my register. What happened was, ours got so incredibly one-sided the scoreboard fell off the wall INTO MY FACE.' (*owned*….But now brace for petty-but-not-petty revenge unless you've already skiddaddled or can easily side-step or make that your Walk Out statement)... Another e.g.: "You're just paranoid" "Lately...Solely and exclusively with you, yeah. So why's that, then?" (Ask a question and shite-covered ball goes back over the net to them) "You're always so over-sensitive" "Only since I got involved with you. Not with anyone else present or past. What does that tell us, then?" or "Am I? Or am I, where YOU'RE concerned, just not as thick-skinned as a mountainface?" But those are spot-able slaps and punches. And the sorts of retorts that require confidence (or enough conviction) They can get a lot subtler with an older, veteran, high-functioning narc, plus how the conversation proceeeds itself isn't ‘one thing before the next’ neat and tidy anyway, so though the verbal offences (including in the form of mere ideas and concepts) can get audially lost in the melee, they’re still getting into your subconscious. Not that people don’’t mistakenly make each other feel bad from time to time. But NOT more often than not. Nor half the time. A third of the time these days might be acceptable to some, but – not to me. I accept a TENTH of the time and no more. Because that’s indicative of normal, healthy AND a diamond PLUS COMPATIBILITY. Course. Because their whole aim is to drag you - a diamond - down to THEIR level AND THEN EVEN LOWER (so they can be the superior gorilla). To destroy all that makes you a lovely person, warts and all. “What an achievement – I can control and bring down anybody!” (cuckoo!) Another safety measure is this: the minute you feel a dater has what it takes for you to fall for her/him: book a course with a counsellor so they can play Your Constant. (You can hire a counsellor just for someone to talk to, you know.) A person you report and describe EVERYTHING to - bad AND good (a judge can’t decide with only one portion of the whole picture)... A Diary on-legs. Not being influence-able by attachment to your new Squeeze - nor to you (despite they care), unlike a close friend - a counsellor will easily be able to see whether the dater is overall-consistently, behaving as a normal-healthy-decent or not...or the distinct opposite….or anything in between (A counsellor who knows Narc onions - all layers - will - unlike one who doesn't - advise you to dump aka be prescriptive.) This is about quick prevention and nipping things in the bud, as opposed to cure WHILST finding yourself all-of-a-sudden caught up in a thorn-forest. *********** I think it was more mere curiosity with you (scientist or detective much?). Even though you didn't know the What, you did feel how it felt (wrong, back-to-front, unfair, NOT NORMAL PROCEEDINGS). That makes you one of those "meddling kids" (ref Scooby-Doo) lol. So - HOW YOU FEEL RIGHT NOW, HOW YOU TEND TO FEEL TOO MUCH OF THE TIME... New Mantra, really easy to remember in terms of how one feels in the person’s company at the time or once they’re apart: I need Radiators in my life - not Drains! (Get it?) ***************************************************************************************************** Yeah - narc-typically, she "assumed" whenever suited her agenda at that time - looking out for the first available excuse to Dispense with you each, with your "boundary disrespecting behaviour" (NOT), her perfect excuse AND COVER STORY (should anyone ask - including you yourselves), augmented by those effing entrance 'posters'. "I stopped having anything to do with them because blah-blah-blah". Not Her Fault, nothing to learn and adjust her own future outlook, conduct and behaviour by...blah-blah-blah, she's still perfect (and NOT malignant because YOU AND HE (and whomever else )DESERVED IT, BLAH-BLAH") "The not so surprising thing is that learning about covert narcissism makes me think that I have encountered at least three people who are that way (and with whom I've had unpleasant experiences). I don't know if it is the classic empath-narc pair because some friends have told me I am very empathetic. I'm definitely sensitive (both emotionally and with the five senses) so could be." Only three? Crikey, you're lucky. Yup - you're demonstrably an empath (looking to see if you were the one to blame) and she's demonstrably narcissistic (who tried to make you think AND feel you were). And yes, your radar is pretty top-shelf already (sensitivity). But also - what you are NOT, is dumb-down-able under-fire. Very Rare. You keep more presence of mind than others. IOW, I'll say it again...the best compliment there is: You are a very, very, bad and difficult Slave. LOL You'll be even more empathetic and fair-minded after this, especially towards friends (automatically, anyway, if you’re no longer wasting it). But handing it out more discriminately. Already you tend to have a sense of protectiveness over them as well as they, you. And the more enlightened and empathetic you are, the more outrageous you’ll tend to find the way these narc types needlessly mistreat (genuinely or just seemingly vulnerable) people. And these 'newly pumped muscles' (weight-bearing ones included) just increase your vibe/allure (especially to women) so it's all good. And, if you keep watching and reading, you'll inevitably hit that point where you'll spot or 'smell' them even before your couple friends do! Bear in mind as you keep watching on youtube that not all victims, experts, experts-into-victims and victims-into-experts will agree over what everything means and which trait is responsible for what, plus any really clear distinctions between the types. True experts, however, are further ahead in their research and knowledge so are aware of the co-morbidities and the ways in which they manifest in application (like different cocktail mixes) regardless of whichever outside conditions and situations. But it's the latter who know the ENTIRE picture...it's just logical if you think about it because only they have the real-life context AND frame of reference by which to judge. PS: Have you tried Richard Grannon on youtube? I think I recall correctly that he got pasted around the walls with one (or more) before studying-up understandably obsessively?

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Hi! This time I gotta apologize for the delay haha. I am traveling a bit for work (yay finally got out of the city!) and completely forgot to reply. I was going through some old messages on the way and I think I do have some things to say both ways. About humble bragging, yes I did notice that somewhat. Like I used to run a debating/discussion club and in my chats I had sent her some pictures when she was the part of a discussion. She rarely showed up to those and looked quite disappointed in the photo. So, I asked her jokingly why she was angry. She said she always thought those discussions were a waste of time coz everyone was acting too elitist without knowing anything. I admit some of that was true but I said so why didn't you tell us at the time (since she was real good friends with the person who started that club) and she said she had no interest in correcting people and especially didn't want to waste time correcting egoistic men. "The latter is where she didn't just show you unpredictable irritation directly, but had also created a mini-cultural/atmospheric pressure and "warning" of thereby more punishment where that'd come from" I sort of get this. She had posted something about a show she had recommended to me in her story and I, in trying to be cute, jokingly said, "I want to punish you! Why did you post *that*". So, she was like oh sorry I totally forgot but then said I should stay clear of social media if I am watching a 20 year old show and punish is not the language to use in the 21st century. I said I did not mean to offend. I wasn't aware if there are negative connotations to that. So, all in all yes there was a little bit of "walking on eggshells" feeling but I dismissed it as nervousness because of my romantic interest in her. "So that's why you must - MUST - take much longer time to grieve before dating or going out to meet new people again (unless it's where people socialize at arm's length - a night class, for example) " Yes I am struggling with this a bit. I started talking to an old school friend (a lady) who I thought is cute (she has a boyfriend though so no romantic angle here). But I realized the real reason I found her fascinating is that the kind of stuff she posted really reminded me of J. Feels kind of dishonest and so I backed off for a few days. But we are decent friends now. I told her about the whole J thing and she said, "Wow she is more full of herself than a Russian doll!". I am going to therapy though. It does help in clearing up my thinking at least. It was reassuring to hear from a third party professional explain to me how I have the tendency to take blame or feel a little too guilty sometimes. It has been great so far in terms of identifying my patterns. How much of them change is yet to be seen hahah. Even after all this though, going through old texts and everything feels odd and sad. I mean that on a cerebral I am able to see and list the red flags but on a instinctual/emotional level (I have been taught and have practiced trusting my instinct more), it feels like the destruction of something that could have at least been a beautiful friendship. I see how many things (and some fundamental values) we found relatable and agreed on with each other. More than that though I feel violated(?). It's just that I shared things about me with her that I would only share with someone I absolutely trust and now it feels like I got phished or something. P. S. Yes! I did check him out. I like the documentary style. I found videos of this professor via him who is himself a narcissist and educates about it. That was quite revealing!

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Hi-Hi, Oh, joy - a real, live, genuine poster! (LOL, referring to all the attempted trolling; you've probably noticed the bum-spanking and thread closures.) Oh, I think it's safe to say that being delayed is a global pandemic, lately - no worries. Plus it's a good sign that you forgot, means you're very into your new chapter. Very pleased for you, mate. :-) And I'm not planning on going anywhere so - pop back and forth any time you like. Oh, and if ever you can't find time but don't want your thread to expire where you'd have to start a new one, just post a quick 'template' sentance, like, 'Busy right now, be with you soon' or some such each time, to keep it active. Especially, as "oh, and another thing that's dawned on me" is a standard feature of the grieving process (shouldn't HAVE to grieve after such a seemingly short-lived engagement time, but this is NPD 'grieving' (dem hooks - plus your clarity returning) so, yeah you do. Plus - it's very comforting and handy to have an interactional online diary, isn't it. Helps get your thoughts in order. Re the Debating: Not surprised she wasn't up for it - the whole 'argument' isn't long-scripted, learnt-off-by-heart spoken and acted, is it. Not having any or adequate Emotional Understanding, it's down to purely Cognitive, which itself is impaired. So there's no chance of passably winging-it via improvisation. She'd LITERALLY - mouth-wise - be like a fish out of water, with everyone there wondering how someone so seemingly eloquent in email/messaging (where controlling thus anticipating the narrative and dialogue, and having time to think, abounds) could be so incapable of LOGICAL, FREE-FLOWING, on-the-seat-of-your-pants style, Debate. (PS: "and especially didn't want to waste time correcting egoistic men." - Throw in a needless, female-chauvenistic insult, why doncha (her).) "but then said I should stay clear of social media if I am watching a 20 year old show and punish is not the language to use in the 21st century. I said I did not mean to offend. I wasn't aware if there are negative connotations to that. So, all in all yes there was a little bit of "walking on eggshells" feeling but I dismissed it as nervousness because of my romantic interest in her." Yes. I repeat, despite surface appearance, this was by no means some trivial liaison - it was the START of things to come (worse and worse) and you had a very lucky (clever) escape! And the fact you still have layers of her crap coming into sharp relief, shows how deeply they get into your brain (right from Hello). But, anyway - smart comebacks on your behalf (...oh, alright, and mine, LOL): You should stay clear of social media? "Yes, mum!" Very "interestink" suggestion, however, mm-hmm. Punish is not the language to use in the 21st century, even when clearly tongue-in-cheek? Who died and made HER the boss of you and everyone! "I said I did not mean to offend. I wasn't aware if there are negative connotations to that." Course not. You're too much of a gentleman (until, like all Normals, pushed beyond the patience of a Saint). I'm not - and I've a great SOH, and joking around like that is perfectly appropriate between friends, so I'd have come back with (ref "Lets Do It - The Ballad of Barry And Freda" by Victoria Wood), "Ooh - beat me on the bottom with me Woman's Weekly!" (Haha, would have put her RIGHT off!) But "laffs" aside, you'd expect a normal person to have tried something more courteous and respectful, such as, 'Um, hate to ask you this because I know you were just being playful, which normally I'd appreciate, but I'm incredibly touchy where all reference to (counter-!) control are concerned so if you could do me a favour and abstain from words like Punish, please?...is that alright?...sorry to be a pain", wouldn't you. She's not. She's a narc controller. So it's, "Ya vull, mein Fuhrer!" and goose-marching your unimportant little slavey self into the Naughty (Torture) Corner with the full-length, custom-designed, circus mirror: "Is my mouth REALLY that big?" (No, her ears (pretend-) are). "So, all in all yes there was a little bit of "walking on eggshells" feeling but I dismissed it as nervousness because of my romantic interest in her." Well, you WOULD. You must trust me when I say, from what I've gathered (a lot) - everything you did and said, had she been normal, would have worked perfectly well and you'd probably be happy bf and gf by now. (Feel free to unleash your SOH at me, btw - any excuse for a giggle or banter. Fact is, Black Humour is a vital, perfectly healthy coping mechanism for nervousness all the way to shock and distress - your A&E surgeons and staff are terrible for it! I witnessed it for myself a good handful of times. And it WAS FUNNY...hysterical, actually, they were as good as stand-ups, and definitely disempowered the over-seriousness and shockingness of the situation..."good venting, maan". So PRRRTH! to all (attempted abuse of) Political Correctness.) Anyway, you can be sure that as soon as she saw all hooks were safely in - those eggshells would have turned to (ref Annie Lennox) walking on broken glass. "Yes I am struggling with this a bit." Normal. Takes time - which you NEED (more room to think and sort - faster recovery). !I started talking to an old school friend (a lady) who I thought is cute (she has a boyfriend though so no romantic angle here)." Safe practise - good choice. "But I realized the real reason I found her fascinating is that the kind of stuff she posted really reminded me of J." Ah. Well, in what ways? Post them here so you can get them out of your head, if you like? It's like writing Post-It Notes. It actually does free up space in your mind, plus having it all in front of you for ref, any time you need, will keep you focussed on what you do or don't want, or should avoid, in a partner in future. "Feels kind of dishonest" That's because you're a gentleman. " and so I backed off for a few days. But we are decent friends now." Fantastic - a female friend. (The mild, non-pathologicals can be alright, especially at arm's length.) "I told her about the whole J thing and she said, "Wow she is more full of herself than a Russian doll!". " Haha! - genius! - love it! - why's that not a meme already? Anyway, we don't take any notice of the person's ability to critise others because Narcs are perfectly capable of doing THAT when they (gosh, how odd) can see and appreciate another person's inappropriate-ness. It's INCOMING criticism, no matter how constructive or kindly-delivered, that they can't handle ("Waaaah - enemy! - die, die!"). But what we CAN deduce is that she has a wicked SOH which is a bloody good sign because, of course, one needs (wait for it) healthy-normal-personed EMPATHY for that (ta-daa). So at this point I can confidently say: good choice! "I am going to therapy though. It does help in clearing up my thinking at least. It was reassuring to hear from a third party professional explain to me how I have the tendency to take blame or feel a little too guilty sometimes. It has been great so far in terms of identifying my patterns. How much of them change is yet to be seen hahah. " I'm glad s/he said tendency and a little. Tweak/enhance where necessary, yes. Change who you are as if something's wrong with you just because a dominator said/did so, no. Don't lose that gentlemanliness because in Normal World it's a real boon. That's excellent news. Your counsellor will have time to get to really know you before then switching to playing your Constant once you've met your next girlfriend. Superb, proud of you. :-) Once you're clear, it would be great for the benefit of readers/lurkers if they could learn through you what all those patterns were? It hits home harder when one hears it 'straight from the horse's mouth'. But only if you want to, no pressure (, Dobbin, LOL). "Even after all this though, going through old texts and everything feels odd and sad." I know. It really is. "I mean that on a cerebral I am able to see and list the red flags but on a instinctual/emotional level (I have been taught and have practiced trusting my instinct more), it feels like the destruction of something that could have at least been a beautiful friendship. I see how many things (and some fundamental values) we found relatable and agreed on with each other." Beautifully put! Yup - that frustration over their seeming refusal to unleash their potential because - how does Adele put it? - We could have had it all. It's not potential, though, it's the remnants of who they used to be or could have been "if not for...". Oh, and the fundamental values were all yours, with her just mirroring (it hooks you). "More than that though I feel violated(?)." YUP! Because you were - your precious mind and personality package. Oh, AND time. All of it. "It's just that I shared things about me with her that I would only share with someone I absolutely trust and now it feels like I got phished or something." YUP. Good processing! Great Survivor post! Thank-you. Keep it coming! :-)

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OMG, Heisenburg, LOL! I just had to share this Quora 'Comment' with you - it's priceless for its unbridled-ness and it made me think of you and Little Ms Ew! The question was - How does a Covert Narcissist express narcissistic rage? (Respondent's name is Mercedes Lovelace if you're interested in following her.) And note third paragraph in particular...or all of it, actually. My double parentheses: "They will express rage in a very passive/aggressive, cowardly way. ((yup)) They will likely do something to deliberately get you angry. ((yup - or feeling guilty for no reason)) Then when you try to reason with them about it, they will attempt to twist the situation around that you are somehow attacking them. ((yup)) This is what is meant by “gaslighting". They know damn well what they have done ((yup - albeit, not all of them)) but they will feign innocence and vilify you, denying your reality. ((yup)) FYI; this is abuse. ((yup)) Now they have set up a reason to give you the silent treatment and stonewall you. ((yup)) When this finally gets you to crack and say something out of character (because thats what psychological abuse does ) ((yup)) they will call you abusive. ((yup)) The whole point with them is to be punitive and abusive while appearing innocent ((yup)) because they cannot bear the slightest shred of accountability. ((yup)) Simply talking about whats on their mind won't happen ((yup)) because they will never admit you have any effect on them. ((yup)) They are petrified of vunerability. ((yup)) Coverts are weak, cowardly ((yup)) dirtbags with crappy thoughts,((yup)) who like to appear “nice" and 'good". ((yup)) Trust me, they are scum. ((the malignants, yup)) If you are one of the very few souls walking this earth who can see right through them, just stay away. Thats a gift from God.((yup)) They are totally hopeless. ((yup)) Useless cowards with zero integrity and of terrible moral character.((yup)) You will never, ever get through to one. ((yup)) They possess no truth ((yup)) and they despise the truthful.((yup)) The only way to have anything at all with one of these fools is to pander to their good guy song and dance and act as if they are some type of saint who is above reproach. ((yup)) If you are the type of soul I mentioned you would rather die than accept fake love from a phoney where you have to follow some BS script to save their precious little ego. ((yup)) I would happily live alone in the desert first. Try me." LOL, it wass the cowardly dirtbags, onwards, and their precious little ego, and happily live alone in the desert - try me, that really got me - and because it's ALL SO TRUE. Anyway, albeit that it'll keep on developing as you age/live, IMO, you possess that rare gift she's talking about - as well as the reason why they end up despising you (and so quickly), so... How do you look in a cape and with your Y-Fronts worn over your lyrcra leggings? LOL

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Hi-hi, just bumping this up so it doesn't get buried.

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" (shouldn't HAVE to grieve after such a seemingly short-lived engagement time, but this is NPD 'grieving' (dem hooks - plus your clarity returning) so, yeah you do." I kinda get that feeling too sometimes. My mind goes like c'mon it was just a situationship thing it's not a big deal. I guess part of the reason here is that it led to expose/explore stuff which I like/dislike but hadn't realized myself. So, essentially the other person is not relevant to it. I don't miss them. I just miss who I was when I was with them and that I can be without them too. "(PS: "and especially didn't want to waste time correcting egoistic men." - Throw in a needless, female-chauvenistic insult, why doncha (her).)" With respect to this, there was one very obvious red flag that I missed. She mentioned a couple of times in the group call that she does not get angry easily but when she does it is really something. She really did get angry on S one time on the callwhen he said something that dismissed her experiences. But they made up pretty quickly then. One more thing I noticed is and I don't know if it is because I was paying too much attention is that she would be wrong about herself? Like it did not even seem like lying, it was either just really inconsistent behavior or poor self-awareness (more likely). But she would be really confident about it. Like she said she uninstalls Instagram on weekends because it distracts her too much but then she would post more (and talk) on weekends more? Also, apart from not asking questions, she also almost never would initiate talking? Like she would send something, even something like a short video of herself coloring with songs in the background but won't say Hi how's it going? I don't know much of texting etiquette but it stuck me as odd. "those eggshells would have turned to (ref Annie Lennox) walking on broken glass." Well if it were upto her, maybe she would even object to the usage of eggshells so the hen wouldn't be offended! "Well, in what ways? Post them here so you can get them out of your head, if you like?" Well this is hard. I think part of it is just being a young woman who's nerdy but also embrace their femininity (?) or just things that would be considered conventionally feminine. When I was a teenager, I would get attracted to women who were tomboyish, who blended in with "the guys". Girlboss if I may use that term. J was a strong feminist, but she didn't have any guilt over liking romcoms. So, this new friend kinda reminded me of that. A slight digression but allow me to elaborate. The problem is two fold here. First is that I do have the tendency to see newer woman friends as potential romantic partners. I am in that phase as a young person that really want to date, especially coz I have never been in a relationship and truth be told I do feel lonely often in recent times. The second bigger problem is that while I have not adopted the whole macho toxic masculinity thing, I struggle to talk to men about deep things and about things that I like that would be considered conventional feminine. I like romcoms, I like Taylor Swift, I want to talk about celebrity couples/gossip and it's not that I haven't tried. I have had success with a couple of male friends but with most it is hard to get into that stuff. Either it is sports or work or investments but rarely feelings about family stuff or just deeper feelings in general. So, with this new friend (or other women), I get that space to indulge in my non macho interests and be more emotionally vulnerable. The new friend (D) is great that way. She is very open about her feelings and her problems. She indulges in her vanity rather than pretending she's above all of it. Plus, since there is no romantic angle, I don't feel any pressure to impress or say the right things. We connected online but I am gonna meet her this weekend and I am excited for it! I'll be honest there were a couple of things in the beginning that I brought up with D that I used to talk about with J (nothing significant, it was about Gilmore Girls and ice dancing) and I felt kinda icky about it. But it is better now. I now like to think of those things as a part of my identity rather than things associated with J. I would've liked them regardless of who introduced me to it. (Also, did I mention that I talked to the third guy who was in the group with me and he confirmed that yes J cut him off without any reason because she apparently thought he was also a douche just because he was on the call?)

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"They will express rage in a very passive/aggressive, cowardly way. ((yup)) They will likely do something to deliberately get you angry. ((yup - or feeling guilty for no reason)) Then when you try to reason with them about it, they will attempt to twist the situation around that you are somehow attacking them. ((yup)) This is what is meant by “gaslighting". They know damn well what they have done ((yup - albeit, not all of them)) but they will feign innocence and vilify you, denying your reality. ((yup)) This sounds like a great summary of the situation lol. I should have added to the above post, but I remembered it just now that there was also some sense of grandiosity about her. Like one time she described that the professor was analyzing some literature and how she was the only one who understood and explained all the nuances of the work. I am sure that was a true incident and it wasn't particularly, "Hey look at me I am the best" kinda grandiosity. It was very much understated but it did stand out to me a little.

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One more thing I remembered about J. So, almost every video about covert narcissism I've seen mentions two things - that they are loners and that you feel pity for them. I am not sure if I ever felt pity but she did mention to me that she is quite used to being lonely. Like she has had solitude evolve to feeling lonely to feeling really lonely to just learn to be by herself. I noticed that online too you know you have friends who always comment on something you post? She didn't have that. Even once when she asked to comment below in the caption, no one commented (she had a few hundred followers). Plus I don't remember if I mentioned it before but she did not follow some people that she would tell me were her really good friends. I asked about it and she said she wants to keep her feed uncluttered. Stuck me as kinda odd. I did feel some amount of pity but the major feeling was, "Hey I also feel lonely from time to time. We can connect!"

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Hiya, sorry for the delay, heavy week again - be with you as soon as I can!

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Here I am - sorry for the wait! "One more thing I remembered about J. So, almost every video about covert narcissism I've seen mentions two things - that they are loners and that you feel pity for them. I am not sure if I ever felt pity but she did mention to me that she is quite used to being lonely. Like she has had solitude evolve to feeling lonely to feeling really lonely to just learn to be by herself. I noticed that online too you know you have friends who always comment on something you post? She didn't have that. Even once when she asked to comment below in the caption, no one commented (she had a few hundred followers)." 1. Loners, in as much as they can't connect nor bond properly or at all. But, in fact, they cannot stand their own company for more than 5 minutes - because that way DOESN'T lie Validation (of the brilliant persona they're pretending to be) and Attention (pref the centre of). This can include something as simple as flattery (usually manipulated out of you). But it's their oxygen...so much so that, if there's only negative attention going - that'll do! It's still better than nothing (which is why IGNORING them (and their toxictly stupid behaviour) is the most 'cruel' thing you can do to them...and YES, neither do we Normals tend to like being ignored, but here I'm talking LITERALLY CANNOT TOLERATE, puts them slap-bang into Narcissistic Injury and Hot-Overt/Cold-Furtive Rage). So it's not that they're lonely in the normal sense. After all... "Like she has had solitude evolve to feeling lonely to feeling really lonely to just learn to be by herself." ...I'd have asked her - Never heard of a club, luv?! It's rot...unless by 'lonely', she means, constantly rejectable and rejected? Here, it's you they're Mirroring (narcissistically i.e. uber-selfishly, not remotely for your benefit). Even if you say nothing about your own state - these actual personality-disordered Malignants are closer to animal than human, with sense to-match...so you don't even have to admit you're lonely - they can tell....RIGHT off the bat! (You'd think they'd use that talent for something more useful, wouldn't you. But, no - why should they benefit the world,) They also copy things about you...sayings, quirks & foibles, outward style, ideas, opinions (without even taking the trouble to understand them)...ach. At first you might find it flattering but then it becomes a case of, "Come ONNNN - seriously?!...what - you wanna BE ME?!?". It's no different to if you had an allure/charisma about you that was down to your cologne, and them necking you, not out of affection but to literally steal your scent (so they don't have to waste their own money). But, it's funny how we're so inferior and yet they want to become us, isn't it - yeah, funny that. They hate you (jealous of your healthy happiness, personality, lifestyle, goods, whatever/all of the above). But they need you. And needing you makes them you resent you (for "making them" feel vulnerable to themselves). And now they hate you even more. (And don't you know that's all YOUR fault? LOL) And need even more to keep you around to simultaneously squeeze juice from you whilst punishing you for being so "smug" by kicking all your confidence and joie de vivre out of you. (It never fails to strike me how ridiculous "I" sound typing this sh*t up, KNOWING it's all true and real, but just downright fruit-loopy and sooo damn petty. And then I remember, they ARE kids when it comes to ANYTHING REMOTELY to do with emotionality and emotional intelligence. I still from time-to-time get the urge to slap my own face, however. LOL. Anyhoo...) 2. The Pity Ploy, or a certain intense degree of it, is, in my experience, just as Martha Stout says: especially characteristic of your Sociopath Narc (the worst type fo Narc). They tend to be able to switch back & forth between Overt and Covert 'as need be', but always trying to dis-arm or strong-arm you using the Pity Ploy, WHEREAS, your 'straight' Malignant-Covert tends to have far too much (false) pride to want - even for manipulation purposes - to even APPEAR vulnerable and down-on-their-luck or just somehow "below you", meaning, the rare times they'll use the pity ploy is when backed in a corner, out of plausible excuses meant for avoiding an wholly warranted (oh no!!!) apology & consequence/need to "make it up to you" (ermahgeeerd!!). You can't stay angry at someone who makes you pity them. You tend to let them of the hook (meaning to deal with their transgression against you, later - which never seems to get to happen). You even feel generous towards them. You might even do the apologising that's theirs. Or lend them your car. Or a sum of cash. Or worse - let them move-in. This is the trickiest part about them because it takes an iron will AND a complete acceptance of the existence of one's own, normal, human, healthy - but still potentially lethal - counter-predator animal/psychopath. You can't stay polite/human around Spaths for long, particularly when they're in a shocking rage. Gets you the opposite of nowhere (they just think - "su-ckeeeeer!"). I can quite believe that her current following have grown fed-up for her by now, however. People always do at whatever inevitable point, lose patience with the One Way Street that is a 'relationship' with a Narc - especially the seemingly less subtle (yet more subtle underneath) Spath domestic con-merchant. But what happens is: because the malig. narc. never does a dealbreaker, the person gives up trying to get blood out of a stone yet feels no need to Delete them as a friend. The Spath-Narc doesn't care - it's about what it looks like (a whole crowd) and, considering they're always-always recruiting new fans - you probably just saw a fleeting gap in the attention before new fodder came in. Saying that, new fodder might well be thinner on the ground by now... Everyone now knows enough about NPD and its Red Flags that they're pretty much wise to it all (here's hoping!...because, remember: the way to kill their lineage is merely for everyone not sleep with or ever marry one for the next however many decades. End Of. (End Of Them) "Plus I don't remember if I mentioned it before but she did not follow some people that she would tell me were her really good friends. I asked about it and she said she wants to keep her feed uncluttered. Stuck me as kinda odd." :-D The equivalent would be saying she doesn't want to go to parties in case she creases her favourite party-dress. Another crock. Remember, she's a Spath. She doesn't have actual, proper friendships - even online - with these people, they're just part of her con-job. WHAT she cons out of people, I don't know. But it's not just Scoring Ego Points off of them as they suck their ilfeblood, like your straight malig. NPD. There'll be money and/or goods involved somewhere. "I did feel some amount of pity but the major feeling was, "Hey I also feel lonely from time to time. We can connect!"" Yup. That's what you were supposed to think (- i.e. her idea) so, Aim, Fire, Bullseye! ...Well, nearly, but NOT NEARLY ENOUGH, thanks to you and your high skepticism. And the fact you won't be half as thick as her (- clouded from constant plotting and machinating equals too little processing-space left over...and possibly naturally a bit thick too to begin with, who knows.) But, whatever it is you need is what they pretend to be 'selling'. Here you go - enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNKn5ykP9PU PS: How's the new town and pad? You enjoying your old crowd?

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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Hi sorry for the delay. I am applying to a few internships and stuff and got caught up in it. The moving thing got a bit delayed. I got together with a few friends for new year's and we all spent all night on the terrace. It was fun! I agree with the first point. I *think* it made her uneasy once or twice when I ignored something she said? However, I think better not to go into all that in detail and bring back up old stuff. Thanks for making it all make sense. In other things, things are going well with my new friend. She and I have become good friends within a short time. She couldn't be farther from J. She's very open, caring and honest. However, I don't know I why but I miss the old crowd from time to time (R, S and the gang). S especially since he was quite well read, knew a lot about art, films etc. Also, he was like a decade older than me so kind of a big brother figure. He wasn't directly toxic to me exactly but as mentioned above, I saw the paths he chose to walk down and decided to cut him off. I am happy with the choice I made even though to some of my other friends from college, it sounds odd. I almost feel a sense of regret that I spent a significant amount of time with these people when I could have been doing other things. I forgot to mention when this happened. When I went on my work trip, I spent a day at my old roommate's place. He used to "date" R. Airquotes because even though I knew it fizzled out pretty quickly, I had no idea how toxic R was. She dangled him a lot basically. She is such an insecure person that even last time I met her, she wanted to know if my roommate is still in touch with the girl she dated after her. It has been four years since their fling. She later called him when she broke up with her boyfriend of two years and mentioned stuff like how she wasn't really physically attracted and felt disgusted when she woke up with him. Yes she said that about her boyfriend of two years who wanted to marry her. She told all of us that she broke up with him because she wasn't ready to get married. For that one I can definitely say surely an overt narc!

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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I think the best option here is to apologize for not respecting the boundary and not mentioning the other stuff. It's important to be mindful of the other person's feelings and respect their boundaries. An apology of the type "I'm sorry for not respecting the boundary" is likely to be more effective in this situation. You can also explain why you reacted the way you did and make sure she knows that you understand why she set the boundary in the first place. This will show that you recognize the importance of respecting someone's wishes.

Am I in the wrong here? Should I apologise?

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(ChatTheGreenMile, I think you need to read the entire thread to understand the full story and context, and then try again if you want to. As it is, I'm afraid your response doesn't make any sense.) ***************** Hey-hey! "Hi sorry for the delay. I am applying to a few internships and stuff and got caught up in it. The moving thing got a bit delayed. I got together with a few friends for new year's and we all spent all night on the terrace. It was fun!" No worries. The delay is the product of your life having improved. :) About time you had fun, anyway. That, usually (within reason), is an overlooked but vital ingredient for swift recovery. I can't talk, anyway. I'm always late for one reason or another (practical stuff, still...it's like Brexit broke Spain as well, IMO). Internships in what? What do you do? (Unless you're the only person in the world doing it - you can say, without worrying about losing anonymity.) "I agree with the first point. I *think* it made her uneasy once or twice when I ignored something she said? However, I think better not to go into all that in detail and bring back up old stuff. Thanks for making it all make sense. " Fairenoughski and you're welcome. :) You're subconscious seems to be managing to file/re-file everything perfectly well on its own - and then passing you the finished memo reports, anyway (tick!). :) "In other things, things are going well with my new friend. She and I have become good friends within a short time. She couldn't be farther from J. She's very open, caring and honest." That's BRILLIANT news, I'm sooooo pleased for you! And, yes, when you get a healthy one (friend/beau), the difference is so palpable and refreshing, you wonder how on earth you didn't spot how BAD, ACTUALLY, the fake friend was - right? Out of interest - has SHE ever had a run-in or near-miss with one? "However, I don't know I why but I miss the old crowd from time to time (R, S and the gang)." It's because you're a healthy, working model hence grew an attachment to them. So you're bound to. "S especially since he was quite well read, knew a lot about art, films etc. Also, he was like a decade older than me so kind of a big brother figure. He wasn't directly toxic to me exactly but as mentioned above, I saw the paths he chose to walk down and decided to cut him off." That's just sensible. You can love a 'rabid puppy' as much as you like, but it won't stop him from randomly, without-warning biting chunks out of you that require stitches each time. What are you supposed to do? There's nothing you CAN do - except take it back to the shelter or have it put to sleep. Still sad, though. Time is your friend, however. It will ease off to nothing. "I am happy with the choice I made even though to some of my other friends from college, it sounds odd." (Lucky them if it sounds odd!, but...) Well, give them the links I gave you, then?...adding, 'There is more than one type of college on this here planet, kids...Get studying!' (lol) "I almost feel a sense of regret that I spent a significant amount of time with these people when I could have been doing other things." You were gaining a Masters in the University Of Life (and pumping your mental muscles in their gym). Waste? Hardly, lol. "I forgot to mention when this happened. When I went on my work trip, I spent a day at my old roommate's place. He used to "date" R. Airquotes because even though I knew it fizzled out pretty quickly, I had no idea how toxic R was. She dangled him a lot basically. She is such an insecure person that even last time I met her, she wanted to know if my roommate is still in touch with the girl she dated after her. It has been four years since their fling. She later called him when she broke up with her boyfriend of two years and mentioned stuff like how she wasn't really physically attracted and felt disgusted when she woke up with him. Yes she said that about her boyfriend of two years who wanted to marry her. She told all of us that she broke up with him because she wasn't ready to get married. For that one I can definitely say surely an overt narc!" OH. HER, TOO (as well as S), EH?! So, basically, without realising it, you were in a whole nest of them (of varying severity), then? Looks like it, doesn't it. Yikes. Still, could have been far worse. You could have met them all when you were still at school! Locked in the playground with them for years... OMG/ugh! But anyway, you've just highlighted a main characteristic of your malignants: unlike normals who end it when the magic is gone and (mere) incompatibilities show themselves - your malig narcs, even though they've (inevitably, unpreventably) gone off you, THEY STRANGELY REFUSE TO JUST END IT/LET YOU GO. It's because they weren't ever in it for love/attachment...just to make THEM feel good or get to borrow/steal your resources, emotional and/or practical/financial. Just the handy tool(s) you represented...like a human Swiss Army Knife. Hence they keep you while 'putting up with you' ...because their broken/crippled brain won't let them keep any appreciation of you...plus there was insufficient or zero bonding going on from their end - so it shunts (brokenly) from honeymoon/novelty period straight to Devalue and Discard (but will take you back if you beg...so that they can run their whacko programme on you all over again....idealize/devalue/discard-fake discard, repeat (or sweet-mean-sweet-mean/devalue etc). The Devalue might SEEM to side in slowly, as in, evolve over weeks/ months/years, but in reality, it's their increasing inability to keep their "I'm wonderful and think you're wonderful too" mask held up in place properly (or at times, at all). So it's their showing you how they feel (no longer feel) about you that takes time to occur. Diff/all the diff. Might help to picture a tiny little ivy leaf poking through your fence from your neighbour's side. You might think it's a lone branch but if you could see over it, you'd find their entire side was covered in the stuff and now is starting to creep onto your side, which will now happen more and more frequently and mean you having to snip them off as more and more appear - and keep on top of it to protect and preserve your own fence panels. Make sense? Unlike you, at root, they have massive Attachment Disorder.... Hit or be hit....Dump or get dumped... "I hate you/Don't leave me!" - a cormobidity of Fear Of Abandonment and Fear of Intimacy.... Result - narc personality disorder. Not sure SHE is an Overt, she sounds more Covert but having lost her rotten, sociopathic mojo, ergo Overt STYLE but Covert agenda...which loss of warped mojo, is down to the erstwhile, worsening global pressure doing its 'magic'. Those on the Psychopathic side (born with) tend not to be affected by shock/trauma, stress and pressure, according to all the tests. Don't know though - that was too little information to say for-sure. Got any more? Great post again - can't wait for the next (but take all the time you need)! And THANKS for wanting to finish your wee book here. Again, it is so incredibly useful and comforting for those just freshly entering that rotten boat to see that recovery is perfectly possible - inevitable, actually - for the healthy victim-target... basically to see the Pheonix start to rise from the ashes (which is what's happening here). :-)

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