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Epiphany

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Wondering who IF ANYBODY will talk to me after they read this thread. I've just woken up as if out of a dream. No in this case the truth is it was a nightmare. I've just found out that I'm a Child Abuser! The thing is I HONESTLY DID NOT KNOW IT NOR REALISE IT! The truth is I'd be the very last person to deliberately abuse my child. It seems I never knew (until now obviously) that I have 'Borderline Personality Disorder'. I myself grew up in a home of domestic violence (both emotional & physical). It seems my poor mental state is the gift I took with me from my childhood into adulthood. In my own defense I was utterly unaware of it. Now I face the very real & very frightening realisation that I internally mentally tortured my only child. There was nobody there to pull me up nor stop me. So she grew into adulthood & cracked under the pressure after having pent everything up for so long. I was shocked by my girls sudden meltdown. Had no idea where it was coming from nor what caused it. In a nut shell 'ME'. I caused it. I've made the grim discovery (now confirmed by many outsiders) that I am actually 'EVIL'. So where do I go from here? Sorry won't cover what I've done. I'm super sad. Depressed. Lonely. Feel like the worse human being on the planet. I set out to give my girl what I felt I never had 'Love'. It went so terribly wrong. What does hurt me is the realisation that she seemingly cannot recall a single thing which I did right or well for her. I was devoted to her. I remember dressing a Teddy Bear up & helping her enter a competition. I remember many an Easter Bonnet Parade & time spent making things for her. I remember carving a large cardboard box (from the new washing machine) into a Castle. We painted it together. I remember giving her many parties which I believed to be wonderful. I did tuck shop duty, cake stall duty, fete help, classroom reader assistance, bought the dog in for show & tell on more than one occasion, pretended to be the Easter Bunny & put eggs secretly on each kids desk, worked on the Xmas Store, Fathers Day Store, Mothers Day Store. Sleep overs. Baked cupcakes & gingerbread. Took her to the Botanical Gardens to feed ducks. Took her everywhere I could afford. Children's Theatre Productions & shows. Pet Expos. Even Hired an Easter Bunny to knock on the door & surprise her one year. And so much more! But NONE of this is remembered by her nor appreciated. The only thing at the forefront of her mind is my Emotional Abuse. Which I never, ever realised I did. Had I known I'd have hung myself. This little girl I sang to sleep religiously without fail every night. For my little girl I'd pat off to sleep every night after a story book. I'd do anything for her! That is the honest to goodness truth. If she asked for it...I tried to get it. A PURPLE FURBY (no other colour would do). A Guinea Pig. Birds. Fish. Hermit Crabs. Mice. A Dog. I'd blow bubbles with her. I'd catch butterflies with her. So much more! None of it counted. My Sister was a drunk (still is). She also smoked pot. Her kids got thrown a pizza when she remembered to feed them. She cheated on their Father with married men (several times over). She'd take herself on $2000 Hippy Retreats leaving them alone to fend for themselves many kilometres away. She'd forget to pick them up from school & swimming. She went to beach parties & one night her little 3 year old was very nearly abducted. So much more I could tell which makes my toes curl! YET HER KIDS NOW ADULTS ADORE HER!!!!!!!! Hug her, kiss her & tell her she is the best Mother! If anybody cares to give myself (an Evil Angel) some time then please read my next thread and I'd appreciate your opinion or thoughts.

Epiphany

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Hello I will talk with you are you on now

Epiphany

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Well, you've explained all the things you did right, I guess, but you haven't given a clue about what the 'abuse' consisted of. Or what your child says it was. I'm so sorry for your unhappiness. Your long list of all the things you've done sort of sound like not taking responsibility for what went wrong. I hope you can reconcile with your daughter and renew your bond with her.

Epiphany

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GEORGE 111 Appreciate your caring. OLDMAINER your remark 'Your long list of all the things you've done sort of sound like not taking responsibility for what went wrong' is laced with judgment. You must have been one of those PERFECT parents?

Epiphany

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Owning up to my mistakes is why I'm on here. That is my first step in taking responsibility for my actions.

Epiphany

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Wish to reiterate that 'my child' is now a middle aged adult. Her opinions of me as her Mother have only just come to light. Bellowed at me in a fit of tearful anger. Stopped me in my tracks. I had NO IDEA she felt this way. Seems to others out there that I'm making a lot of excuses for my actions by saying that I was a single mother very young, telling how I was actually physically abused as a child & emotionally myself. Saying how I did not know until 2 days ago that I have 'Borderline Personality Disorder'. Saying that I had zero assistance from anybody with raising my child alone. Her Dad left one week before her first bday. I was 23 when he left. This is my second attempt at a chat problem forum. The other one I was crucified without a trial. Come down on with a tonne of bricks by all those amazingly wonderful parents out there. I closed her off from the World. That is my crime! She was emotionally struggling. She was not making friends or coping well with school. First mistake...I pulled her out of ordinary school (age 9 years) and home schooled her. She was getting bullied. She was struggling to make friends. She was a bit chubby (not obese but enough that kids poked fun at her). She hated her teacher. She hated sports. She being highly intelligent a book worm & geek could not fit in. She was never sporty. Refused to join any groups or clubs to make friends when I encouraged her. I managed to get her into tap/jazz class but she wouldn't make friends, dragged her feet & refused to go. At Swimming she refused to even undress & wouldn't go in the pool. I found her difficult. School suggested counselling for her. My family also found her non conformist, smart mouthed & difficult. Never demonstrative (refused hugs/kisses and disliked being touched in any way). I thought she was unique & special, strong spirited, independent, imaginative but at times odd. She had imaginary unicorn friends & they meant a lot to her. She got teased at school for being seen to tie them up to a tree before entering the classroom. This kind of thing went on & she no longer wished to go to school. I talked to teachers, head principal & a child therapist (taken 3 times). As she was very Academic her schools education seemed very lacking. For example I taught her to read at 3-4 years old so she could read by Preschool. So Years 1 & 2 (as it was back then) was a complete waste of her time. She was bored. She called the kids dumb, dumbs. So I tried to get her into a Montessori School but couldn't afford it as a single mum. Why? Was her favourite question & by age 6 I already was out smarted by her & could no longer give her the answers she sort to her questions. Like 'but why doesn't the sky fall down on top of us & why can't we touch it?'. She always found my answers dissatisfactory. So I walked her to our nearest Library & she joined. In books she'd find the answers was my theory. We went there once a week religiously. I did not have money to burn. I did not have a mobile or computer. We do not own a car never have. So google wasn't available to help me out. Now when I say she was home schooled she was not COMPLETELY isolated & cut off from socialising with other kids. On the contrary. Her School had a Centre in Town she frequented often for learning days, exam days, social days, special days such as craft etc. She excelled. Got many awards for her achievements. What I thought was excellent was how even closer our bond got with me teaching her at home. We were always super close. Adored the kid!!! She was & is my World. No bullying at her Distance Ed Centre. Really nice kids. Also, her experience of spending days with truly unique children from amazing backgrounds was also super beneficial. She joined Circus kids, she worked alongside kids with leukemia. Of course being a young girl we had the odd day when she didn't want to do her school work & tried to go outside to play. I followed their schedule & curriculum and she was really good at behaviour. She was focused. She loved to learn. but...in hindsight...perhaps it was my first big mistake? Nope. I'd probably made others no doubt along the way. Background. It was always just us two (I'll explain why soon). Her Dad left to be single & mingle when she was 11 months. He told me I've decided I don't want marriage, kids or responsibility for my life. I want to be free & I want to travel. Also, our little girl had food allergies badly! It was trips to Hospital often & a special diet to be followed. He told me I don't want to spend my life in a Doctors surgery. He packed up & left us penniless & very much alone (not even a car to use). The Courts ordered access. He came a couple of times but ended up a no show forever. No phone calls, no gifts, no NOTHING! Yet I'm the bad parent.

Epiphany

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We soldiered on through her growing years together. For the most part we got along super well. My Sister use to say she was envious of our bond. An Aunt called us 'The Gilmore Girls' if you are familiar with the show. Side Note: We were very much alone! My Sister & Brother (her only Aunt & Uncle) lived far away & made the odd phone call but were never doting or in the picture, not frequent visitors or anything like you see in Movies. They weren't involved. Didn't have kids of their own (when she was little). Were doing careers. Self Centred types. No time for us. Sent b'day gifts in the mail. Her Great Grandparents adored her! Both deceased now. She saw them pretty regularly but she was bored as they were old & flailing. They wanted the hugs & kisses (she refused to be touched by others). No sloppy stuff she'd say. Gran & Nan used to say they'd die of a broken heart because their only Great Grandchild (at that time) refused to allow them to get close to her. They nicknamed her 'The Turd'. Because the more they tried to win her affection the further she backed away. She rarely gave me any love either. I was hurt but accepted it as 'her way'. As for my parents (Mum & Stepfather). Well my Mother is a bipolar/manic nightmare! My Stepfather is a forever suffering in silence type. Nice but weak man. Never wanted kids. We were adult & moved out when they hooked up. Was kind to my girl but disconnected. on an emotional level. He use to say I'm not her real Grandfather. He made no effort to get to know her nor win her over. Kids just wasn't in his appeal scope. Mum abuses everybody! His life is hell as was my childhood. She verbally lectured, berated & nagged my daughter. So my girl hated going there. Blamed me for the exposure to a Loon. I'd make us go Xmas, b'days, Easter etc. We don't go regularly. She put her foot down a while back (my daughter). SO I'M EXPLAINING HERE THAT WE RELIED ON EACH OTHER HEAPS MY GIRL & I. No real help or support system in place. I NEVER sort a boyfriend EVER. I made her my everything for right or wrong. She was my responsibility, my duty & the one true love of my life! So i'm leading to the clincher that wiped out my chances of ever getting 'Mother of the Year'.

Epiphany

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My worse mistake ever! Outside of home school we did all the usual together. Picnics, Movies, Shopping. She was a big collector. Dog ornies, Unicorn toys, books, felt pens, crayons, buttons, various plushies, various collector cards like Pokemon, Tamagotchi etc. Board Games. Every penny went on her! Pretty dresses etc. Also, she always had a lot of pets. Huge collection of DVD's, musi CD's etc. We did a lot of craft together. All of this was to me compensation for the lack of siblings. I say she was spoilt. She says she wasn't. She believes as she did not have a mobile phone, computer, car for her usage (had to walk or use public transport our whole lives), couldn't afford Uni/College that she got ripped off in life! I tried getting her into social clubs around the ages of 10 to 15 (teen groups, religious clubs etc I offered her a very long list & she put a cross next to everything. Refused to join or go). I couldn't physically make her. I had kids over to stay for her company. She would send them home. Ask me to ring their mums & have them picked up. Eventually in her 20's she decided on outside interests but that comes later after the saga of her growing years. The Reader needs this back ground knowledge to comprehend what happened.

Epiphany

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I taught her all I knew & could as a girl to keep her happy & occupied. I taught her the game of knuckles. Marbles. Card Games such as Poker. Knitting. Crochet. Sewing. Cooking. A wide variety of past times & we did it all together always. I considered it quality time. I worked on & off when she was young. I had no babysitters! Couldn't afford it. I wanted to be there for her. I wanted to be a stay at home hands on Mother. I valued her over money. My first job after she was 1 yr old was through a friend typing manuscripts, filing & watching her aspergers 4 yr old son & I took my little girl along. This didn't work out. I couldn't get all the typing done, filing done & grapple with the two of them. My girl once again didn't like the 'dumb, dumb' & wanted to go home. I then worked in a day care centre. As before her that was what I mostly did. (I took her with me. They in time decided her being there was a conflict of interests so they had to let me go). The Great Grandparents were too old to chase a young one around. I knew my Mother was damaging emotionally & my girl hated her but I gave it a go reluctantly. I decided to upgrade my skills & entered into a full time course in 'Early Childhood Education'. She kicked, screamed & cried everyday when I dropped her off there. During my course the Teachers were very understanding. The classroom phone would ring & she'd be crying begging me to come & get her because nanna was out of her tree. I took the phone calls which was very distressing throughout the course. They even let me bring her along some days but not too often. I was the only one in that group with a child. One day my girl was distraught & pale when I collected her in the afternoon. Stepfather said they'd had a fight. Mum eventually admitted to smacking her & yelling at her. My daughter began to vomit & shake. I sat up nights & did my assignments. I took her with me more. Somehow, I finished that course & topped the class. Daughter in tow. The teacher gave her colour ins in the corner & other occupying toys. Then I attempted to use my Diploma. I got a job at another Day Care Centre & had to drop my girl off at a different one. (because of previous experience) She lost the plot! Screamed, yelled, vomitted, banged their door, escaped. They were phoning me constantly. Told me to come & get her & that she couldn't go there anymore due to being disruptive. My Centre wouldn't let her join us there either. So, sole parent payment & stay at home with her again. I had many break downs coping alone & the stress. (later during at school years my mad Mother phoned me daily in crazy manics or highs. Even When I was on tuckshop she'd phone the school act all nuts & they'd come and tell me. Step Father wasn't coping. I'd grab daughter out of class, catch a bus & go up there trying to set things to right). After a few years at home (she was older now) I worked at a Toy Store & did once again leave her with Mum & Step Father. Toystore got angry at how often bipolar mother would ring me & then my daughter would phone me at work also. (which ended very badly. Child in tears & Mother calling her a little bitch, demanding I get her & refusing to care for her ever again). Step Father said sorry but we don't want her at our house). I quit.

Epiphany

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So once at new different school I began helping out in every which way I could. Support a reader, tuckshop, stalls etc. I joined a Mothers Group at the School. Eventually the Principal gave me a lovely gift of chocs/flowers & a certificate for my volunteering at the School. She then said I could be a teachers aide/class room helper & rather than pay me well they'd greatly reduce the private school fees (as I was a struggling single mum on sole parent benefit). I agreed. I practically lived at her school! It was handy in that I didn't have a car so we walked together daily there & back. Why am I telling you all this? It is the honest history. She now as an adult told her Therapist I never worked & used her for financial gain. What happened at this new school was afore mentioned. She hated it. Didn't fit in. Had only 2 friends (there Mums were complaining about her to me through phone calls & in the school waiting zone). She ended up with no friends. She ended up arguing with her teacher in Grade 4. I was called to the office on more than one occasion. They said she needed counselling. She went 3 times. Refused to go. I quit the school. She quit the school & home schooling began. (forgot to say earlier she had been to see a Therapist when she was 3 due to the separation anxiety & lack of affection issues. I got complaints from Mums that she was odd. One Mother nearly ran over me in the street to stop me & complain about my daughter. By now she had one cousin who we saw annually for xmas. My Sister went off about my daughter & so did my Mother always saying she is out of line. Then on one visit with my Brother he had a go at me about her & one visit with my bro in law well he whacked her over the back of her head for her smart mouth). Why am I telling you this because of what is coming? Because she told her Counsellor now that I am physically abusive & THAT IS A HUGE LIE THAT CAUSED ME A TOTAL MELT DOWN OF TEARS! I did at around age 13 shut the computer lid roughly on her hand. She refused to stop playing games & mouthed off at me. She NEVER got smacked as a child. Time out I used. So the hurt at her lying to her Therapist has really cracked my heart. She told her she is in danger from me. Total untruth! She has physically struck me twice in her life which she denies vehemently. I have evidence. She does not. I'm realising this is all too much! I'm taking up too much space & too much of peoples time. But how else do I let people understand the history that led me to today? I never gave the history on the last chat site so I was slandered. They didn't understand the whys or where fors! Two sides to every story. Mine has not been heard until now.

Epiphany

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Sorry for annoying bitter diatribes.

Epiphany

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I get it. I understand. Stay strong.

Epiphany

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It is very difficult to raise children in a two parent home, let alone single parent home. Some are destined to do single parenting. I must say keep applying yourself to being that single parent. The easing of your responsibility will happen, and you will have a better life. For now you feel challenged, and it is the way for now. Look into finding a single parent group. I would think there are others that are doing some of the same situational happening. Find them, and you will find information methods and much more.

Epiphany

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Hi lockmeup, Reading through what you put, it sounds like you did all you could to support your daughter and tried many different ways to help ease her anxiety. Having certain family members disliking her, not being understanding, not wanting her around, being verbally (sometimes physically, your mum and bro in law) abusive towards her, was not going to do herself self esteem/confidence and anxiety any good. It’s not surprising she didn’t want to be around them and explains why she reacted the way she did towards them. And if they were thinking badly about her then maybe she didn’t like herself very much. Even her great grandparents nick naming her ‘ the turd’ (seriously?) and making her feel guilty for not wanting to hug or kiss them. Also not surprising she pushed school friends away and didn’t want to go to any groups. What is she like as a person now? Does she have friends and hobbies? Could you and your daughter sit and calmly talk about this (when your both ready) ? it sounds like she’s just come to you very angry, shouted it all at you, and that was it. Or you both go to family counselling together, so that the therapist is hearing both of you?

Epiphany

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Didn't mean to sound judgmental, just wondering if there were some genuine issues that were being glossed over. I did ask what the abuse was **or what she said it was**. And I said THAT because sometimes people get carried away, >>>or are convinced by others that perfectly normal stuff is 'abuse'.<<< For instance, my colleague told me his mother "used him to provide for her needs." His 'evidence' for this was when he got a dish of ice cream, she asked him to get her one, too. In polite families, when you fix yourself a nice snack you offer to do the same for others rather than eat it in front of them? "No" he said, "I was fulfilling her needs." That's what he got out of 'therapy' but honestly, it sounds bogus to me. So...you couldn't catch a break. Her dad was a heel. Some grandparents are young and vibrant and relatable, hers weren't. You never had a lot of money. I'm sorry for your experience, and sorry for your daughter, too. Hopefully with time, she will realize that sometimes things don't work out for us, and it's really nobody's fault. (Well, her dad had a choice about stepping up and didn't). Anyone over the age of 50 grew up without computers or cell phones, and many didn't have cars, either, until they got a job and paid for one themselves. Has a mental health professional examined you and diagnosed you with BPD, or is this your daughter's judgment, or has she told you that HER therapist has magically diagnosed you without ever meeting you? No REPUTABLE professional would do such a thing.

Epiphany

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I'm with OldMainer on the "made me get her ice-cream!" attitude. And you are VERY welcome here LMU (- I refuse to call you by that OTT-self-flagellating name - please can I suggest you change it if you can, and do us ALL a favour? Might I suggest "BetterLate", as in, than never?). ALL Wide-Awakes and Just-Wokens ready to make reparations are welcome. And you can use this place's polite and well-behaved atmosphere to get some proper practise in, in-private, when it comes to no longer panicking whenever your feelings feel too sudden, intense and overwhelming, to bear. I appreciate you're both still in shock, but, I think that in the fresh heat of the first "hearing", you're both in your own ways going needlessly too far. If an ongoing spate of sit-down talks never took place (albeit, you need a spare 30 minutes for that!), and your daughter had no-one else to help her understand the entire situation and history (which becomes a need during the naturally-narcissistic (teen) phase) - meaning, your experiences, aftermaths and point of view included - ie. the whole picture as makes what happened to her and why at least make sense - then she's still viewing it through childish, naturally egocentric, "spoiled baby" eyes (and possibly telling a therapist with that bias), meaning, most of what you're hearing has been straining at the gate for ages in its confused about it all state, including why you "didn't" adequately protect and defend her. (How's about because it was a choice between a nest of Narcissists or not enough food on the table!) I reckon you can turn that "I'm so awful" dial down a good 50%. It's ALWAYS "this huge" when it gets its first real or first-ever airing, and then tends to settle back into more realistic, fairer perspective. There's no fault here, just bad circumstances, victimisaation, snowballing, and bad luck, and no-one to stop that rotten, runaway train. Because a Borderline is a VICTIM. OVER-victimised, too long-term injured to function at their best or realise they're even inadvertently hurting people close to them whenever there's any upset. So beaten-up, that it's like they're half-asleep when it comes to spotting and dealing with EMOTIONAL issues and welfare, particularly emotions that shouldn't actually feature (because they're in reaction to an insanity, a broken set of programmes). But there's no malice ever intended. That's my not-ignorant, long-held opinion, anyway, and I'm sticking to it. I therefore don't believe Borderlines should be lumped in with the other Cluster Bs, specifically, Narcissists. Those ones are LIFELONG half-asleep (like a wild animal) or worse. You tell one of THEM they've hurt you and, their condition is so severe that all they tend to think is "Reee-sult!". They get an ego-boost from being hurtful. They seek to hurt. They need to hurt. If they don't - it hurts them. (The Turd. That makes me so angry. So what did you yourself get called?) Borderlines just need to vent (empty Pandora's Box) and can go OTT without realising it - which, when the person loves you, hurts so much and confuses so much, that, without knowing its proper name, it feels bad enough to warrant the label "evil". And then in the mix we have, teenagers with a serious beef and an over-active ego. Until they come out of that Narcissistic phase, usually after they've left education and sampled a bit of ADULT life (fun's over, kids!) and through it, grow some insight, understanding and increase in empathy. Not Borderlines. If any Borderline is "evil" then theirs is a misdiagnosis, IMO. Rather than "on the edge of", Borderline USED to mean, halfway between neurosis and psychosis (until they realised that was wrong). So now it's getting renamed Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder (EUPD). (Yeah, well, when you've been over-bullied for too long, you don't tend to be all that Zen, no. Funny, that.) Also, Borderlines are curable (funny, that!). The other Cluster Bs aren't (understandable, that!). It all sounds as if you DID DO YOUR BEST with the tools you'd been given. And that's all any parent CAN do. But it ended up with a case of wants met, needs not so much. You two are not adversaries, you're co-victims. And it's an altogether very positive sign that she finally let rip and that it's you she told. I have to be honest, though. It sounds like it came on the back of an argument? If that's the case, you definitely need to take its force and extent with a bit of a pinch of salt. ************************************* By the way, have you ACTUALLY been diagnosed just recently by a qualified clinician or have you DECIDED you must be Borderline? And did do know you can be merely a reactive, temporary one (character disturbed, not lifelong disordered (simply still reeling))? (Go Google.) ************************************* What jumps out at me through the dust and fluff of needless self-flagellation, though, is something that's all too common when you're an under-supported, war veteran, constantly treading water, doing at least two grown people's jobs (mum and dad) singlehandledly and so much more crap on top that doesn't feature in a (healthy) marriage where everything's halved and apportioned (handyman, gardener, window-cleaner, administrator, financier...), as is the lot of the single mother whom nevertheless is too tenacious and determined (tick!) to ever give up on being a far better parent growing up than she'd had and ends up nearly running herself ragged. It's unavoidable that some of those spinning plates are going to end up losing momentum before you can get to them and crash to the floor. For an abused and injured woman totally on her own, I think you did gobsmackingly well, actually! (Ever heard of the Paralympics?) (Yours is just a temporary wheelchair, though, and at the end of its service, no worries. You got injured, not crippled.) What I think you did (which happens all the time) was, in your avid determination, got her used to expecting 5-Star love and attention whilst she was young and while there weren't really very serious problems surfacing. She therefore, once she'd reached the age where her mind was strong and ready enough for it, likewise, equally, would have been expecting the 5-Star lessons on all the EMOTIONAL/SOCIAL stuff she'd got dragged into to arrive on said silver platter as well. That, she didn't get (or didn't pick up on?). ("Er...........wtf?") (So you did what you were good at and did that part really well. And didn't know to do the other or that it was even needed. Training your emotional intensity - that, let's not all overlook, hurts YOU as it strikes (spikes) as much as the other, is the part of the work that will take the greatest effort. And you only need be a long-term victim of Narcissism to have that over-intensity. But the good thing about anything is that we humans get used to everything pretty quickly and stop seeing it as work the minute it we feel it starting to work.) However, as I say, it sounds as if she only "didn't get it" relative to the 5-star treatment she was hard accustomed to. It sounds like she got 2 or 3-Star (because don't forget you meanwhile were still SHOWING her loving and supportive mothering - don't overlook the lessons served up by your actions, they're always far more important than words in terms of base sentiment and intent). So RELATIVELY-SPEAKING, as far as SHE is concerned (in her present state and under-educated in emotional matters), she got "neglected" (and unprotected) full-stop. She'll be exaggerating right now (or her past teenager who's been waiting to give this speech, is/was, ...because that's what they're good at, LOL) (again, it got 'written' back then, not today)....because telling it at its actual size would not serve as big or forceful enough (scuse gore) for the amount of puke (cocktail of over-roused emotions) that has been swirling, festering, gagging to come out. AND because she was in a hurry in her desperation to finally give you What For (her complaints file). ('Mum on the one hand behaves like she loves me so much. But then, on the other hand, why won't she see the true impact of what's being done to me, make them stop, and help me by getting real and talking it all over with me? Easy: Because Mum never had the opportunity to be helped and healed or shown how, either, an off-shoot of which was ending up with no support or time, so had to blindly wing it. So what's happened since has just carried on the very ongoing beating-up (in echo in your head format, too) that put you in a dazed/half-asleep state (emotionally) to begin with. Vicious cycle. Look, no-one can save ANYONE if you're not properly awake and it was someone else(s) that put you in that semi-coma! Or to be exact, someone else(s) triggered your perfectly clever and capable brain to put you into a coma in order to ensure your continued survival (how can anyone help THAT?), given too many personal attacks for too long (it hits Critical). End Of. Not fair, sure. Shouldn't happen, no. DOES. A challenge that, usually always very belatedly, has to be faced and dealt with by those with your sort of childhood and teenhood (and beyond). End Of. But the journey does upgrade you both. You've got each other and can do the healing journey together. It'll be the making of yourselves and your mother-daughter (now world-uniquely 'bestest older friend-bestest younger friend but age immaterial') relationship. Give her her days in court and let her get ALL OF IT - even the exaggerations - off of her chest. By all means pose sincere questions as she goes, but don't argue with her feelings if/when you can tell you're starting to feel defensive/attacked, because you can't argue with someone who's describing a series of events based on how they left her FEELING when its the FEELING that the kid experiences (because they lack the knowledge and understanding capacity). Plus, it's a mum's job IN THIS INSTANCE to hear her kid out, no matter the intensity, negativity and volume. Daughter's FEELINGS have to be let loose from her system before you can go back and together explore and closely examine the actual facts and evidence like two calm scientists and have her capable of seeing things in their, now, straighter state, newly accompanied by the previous missing jigsaw pieces as had her mistaking clouds in the sky for cotton-wool in the foreground and (because she was never put straight) convinced of it, whereupon it sank to the bottom of her psyche where it becomes A (howevermuch incorrect) BELIEF. Let her vent and let her feel you want to hear it - all of it. You're a venter, you know how that works, yeh? Then, show her where the pieces actually go as she shows you where hers go or she believes they go. Inevitably, you'll soon enough have a complete, far less intimidating and daunting picture you can both face, understand, learn and benefit from. Whatever you are or are not - you're not a perpetrator, a malignant. In-Motion FACT. Your very action of coming here and saying all of that - hell, having the HUMILITY to say all of that - not to mention, Bravery - eliminates you RIGHT off the bat! I repeat: Perps don't do that, nor anything you're doing. They just deny-deny-deny there's an elephant in the room or that elephants are "a thing" and try to blame the poor victim for the elephant poo (of the elephant that doesn't exist(!)) all over the floor (that they suddenly insist is the ceiling) - or intimidate or hit you into silence, finally not daring to complain ever again...whichever. They "don't do" even the mildest, most constructive of criticism, either. That is GUARANTEEED to spark an attack, that is. I see no twisted thinking in you whatsoever, just a lack of knowledge pertinent to your (er) (ugh) unhealthy family set-up and dynamic. I too strongly feel,- aw, uck-it - I TOO STRONGLY THINK you're one of a multi-generation of victims (parent-kid-parent-kid) of Malignant Narcissists (many of them or a giant one). I think you ought start reading up on that? You also need to know that even if you had been Mary Poppins herself, daughter STILL would have mounted SOME degree of tirade at you (whether less or more dramatically - style isn't the point, their developmental programme as include certain requisite, outward behaviours is). It's a much needed exercise...what happens when teenagers suddenly feel confident enough to give The Management (oo-er) a piece of their newly adult-confident mind for this wrong thing you did and that wrong thing (e.g. they've worked out you're NOT actually a god or their whole world). It's in part supposed to be what helps you both survive the invisible umbilicus finally stretching and snapping (temporary anger and resentment helps numb and distract from that pain) when flying the the nest looms on the developmental schedule. But your Girl, like you, got Interrupted. Her programme couldn't run at the appropriate time. So this part of her developmental 'bid for independence' and 'separation' got shelved. (Stasis) Until now. "Better late than never". :-) Thank uck you two are even still CAPABLE of any of this! (Self-fixing) Imagine if you weren't...! You can either do the healing and recovering (then automatically upgrading) DIY - commence loving, regular, scheduled, sit-down talks (which will get gone over in more detail with each foray). Or, as Lily advises - if you can afford it or can get it free via your GP - the faster version, courtesy of a suitable counsellor-therapist. If you can't afford or organise it, and have to do it yourselves - don't worry. Given your two's demonstrated capabilities, capacities and potentials, it'll only be the difference between taking a taxi or (bonus in disguise - keeping toned) walking. And, after all, what does anyone think folks did before counsellors existed? All top themselves? There'd be barely any of us left! They knew no alternative to simply letting nature lead and take its course in bringing "the toxins-filled zit" to a head, finally, where it could now be seen and felt just under the surface of the skin (Houston, we have a problem). Which nature does ONLY when all senses detect the time for lancing is right and not a minute beforehand. If you're careful (and I know you will be because you're deadly serious about this) you can disinfect, lance, dress and regularly monitor its scabbing process and renew the dressing, yourselves. You'll obviously have to finish studying up on victims (you) of narcissists (they couldn't DO a better impression!) before you do so, though, in order to identify which and where your particular wounds were/are and how they affect and can spread to loved-ones. What she is, is slightly different. She's a victim, accidentally, of a victim who had no idea she still was and nor had stopped reeling (you)...A second-hand or biproxial victim. Nobody that was healthy, capable of love therefore, and didn't have it in for you (or didn't have an illness that made them so, I should say) would ever tell you you were evil. Nor call a child a turd. THAT, SAYS SO MANY MORE VOLUMES ABOUT THEM THAN IT DOES YOU, I HOPE YOU REALISE? In fact, IMO, it bloody diagnoses them! So does the fact that you as a child were put through an adult-sized trauma (having to deal with constant attack) and then - no de-brief! Neither during nor after. Under the rug it went. Emotional Neglect. Off you go, little girl...keep your icky feelings to yourself. Ignorance (because emotional education has been denied you) of an utter madness of a disorder (NPD) that (until recently - secretly) exists and always has, and how it affects and how to throw it off, isn't a crime. It's just an unknowing mistake that you can't help but make or know you're making. Until you find out. End Of. Ignorance is not Evil. You've got some making up and motherly soothing to do, that's all. And then you'll get your baby girl back, with you and she on the healthier track for the rest of your lives ("Crikey, remember back when you and I blah-blah-blah and I said I hated your guts and you said blah-blah..?" Seems like a WORLD away.). Bet you'll end up far mentally closer than if this hadn't all happened. That's usually how it works. *********** She's lodged her complaints file with you. You've read it. You're in shock. She's in shock (OMG I finally said it all!). And grief, etc. So you need to let the emotions settle down before scheduling the talks. But that doesn't mean you can't INVITE the talks - to help settle them? Because your daughter needs her mummy's help to stop feeling so rotten and having to dabble with the evidence (memories) to justify it (so she doesn't feel crazy). Maybe on those occasions you can include her favourite home-cooked supper or make it a takaway night? Bar the first few before the resentment's sodded-off - nobody said therapeutic evenings can't include some fun? I'll bet it's been AGES since you two had a happy, playful, fun time together. People overlook this element but boy is it a powerful antidote! Were it me, I'd also couch the invitation as a request for her to help enlighten you further. After all, she's clearly an adult now, who, evidently, has been doing some reading-up (even if she's slightly misdiagnosed the past situation) - hell, she was the one woke YOU up - so she must know enough? Anyway... So... Are we talking Formal Diagnosis or Self-Diagnosis, encouraged and aided very gaslightingly by those LOVELY, LOVELY PEOPLE you describe (outsiders is right!...ugh, crikey, run!)? Start cutting these toxic people out - or as much as possible - in order to de-tox. Whomever attacks you for the ego-fill of it or/and to take advantage of your lack of trust in your own experience/reality is attacking your daughter. So that would be a fantastic start for daughter to see you make. Better late than never! (Sometimes, though, later is BETTER than sooner.) Tip: Discuss calm adult to calm adult (whilst remembering you're the senior adult with the greater responsibility to keep things chill) despite the topic is the past child's complaints brought forward to the present. Treat her like a lady and an equal, whom can up and leave any time she likes and just might just if you don't watch it. So listen, ask questions (shows you're there for her) and defer to her like you would a peer. Because, usually, not being heard (suspect she didn't have the sense of safety, security and confidence to be "loud and clear enough" to wake you up/plug you in on that side of your cylindry) would undoubtedly be one of her main complaints. This, your tack, is known as Friendly Interrogator (google). PS: I expect you already realise this is far too big (too many years' worth) to actually deal with on a forum, BUT, we can definitely be your emotional supporters and tell you what we know/have experienced/studied. We love people who've managed to escape the Matrix. :-) PPS: Have you additionally looked at Wrong Planet, by the way? They (who know their onions) lump and deal with Autism/Asperger's and Borderline together. Reckon there's a clue in that. :-) PPPS: As far as I have always been able to tell - life (bar the R&R in between) is FULL of things that feel like having to take oneself to the dentist for serious dental surgery or "Sh*t, it's Sunday night, end of Summer holidays and I haven't even started my homework!". So this "project" is not EXTRA workload. It's just Project C instead of B or A. There was always going to be some unavoidable, downright daunting project, because that's the cruddy side of life. (That said...Root Canals versus a new routine of sit-down talks/confessions with my now adult child...um... I'll take the talks, please.) PPPPS (LOL): Another tip: when you can tell it's appropriate - look through the photo albums together. Again - actions speak and make the best evidence and come-down aid out. I've seen a complaining son (accusation - neglect) stopped dead in his tracks by this one and feeling just a tad sheepish (not necessary, though). I think that's everything? I'll hand you back over to "M'Colleagues". You won't need it but - good luck, Troop (she's going over!). :-) ...oh wait - this bit needs correcting: "YET HER KIDS NOW ADULTS ADORE HER!!!!!!!! Hug her, kiss her & tell her she is the best Mother!" Hah! THEY DO NOT adore her or genuinely think she's the best mother. They DO NOT. Really - you could not be more wrong. You need to be looking UNDER the table, not just the surface and coming too soon to the first conclusion that seems to fit. Kids who love and trust you, regardless of any issues, but particularly when they don't have a sibling to spar with, TAKE YOU FOR GRANTED and are the ones that dare practise ARGUING and sparring (and a bit of bullying) on you, even irrationally, as if you really are their sibling, because they know you wouldn't ever go so far as to reject and abandon them for it if they went accidentally too far and broke something! And they still think you can read their mind, ergo, already know what's what and not and won't take it personally. HER lot are doing what kids who have to convince themselves that what their (under-threat) survival is relying on them continuing to cling to IS, ACTUALLY, LIVE AND FURRY, rather than made of wire mesh and liable to lash out. Otherwise they'd be unable to dare touch her with a bargepole, which would mean certain death (of whatever variety) when they could be wrong (which they might be for all they know). They are "FAWNING"....sucking-up to her (and probably competing with one another as they do so). Trying to get her LOVE AND APPROVAL. BY PAYING FOR IT (attention, flattery, fake validation, mimicking her...). Because she doesn't give it freely otherwise. And, because it doesn't work very well but does work A BIT - their attempts increase along with their ever-growing starvation. They end up FRANTIC. And then they grow numb to it and think everything's okay(ish). Your sister, by identification of her kids' "fan-club-ing" despite that revealing scenario proves she doesn't deserve being worshipped in the slightest, sounds like a Grade A Narc. The kids are giving her (contrived) love and affection out of desperation to get some nurturing and validation BACK. Poor sods. It'd be like trying to get milk from a wizened, dried-up dairy cow's teats. Picture it. And then understand why they're still sticking so close to her at their age. Milk Deficit! And no doubt stuntedness and enmeshment (google) and the rest of it. (10p please and check your homework before you settle on any conclusion in future. All it did was confuse and upset you, right? Take better care of yourself than that, please.) Here you go, I've just fetched this for you (I'm not feeling very articulate today - headachy weather - so this probably explains it better): https://wasitme.blog/2020/01/20/narcissistic-abuse-fight-flight-freeze-or-fawn-and-how-the-narcissist-uses-these-against-you/ "Narcissistic Abuse puts our minds into extreme states of stress and confusion when we are living under stress. Our minds try to find ways to cope with protecting ourselves from the abuse. Often it’s our subconscious survival mechanisms that kick in, which helps in the short term. Unfortunately, it doesn’t help in the long term. Once in the fight, flight, freeze or fawn survival mode, a narcissist will then twist our survival instincts and use these against us. Often why, the real victim feels like they are to blame and does all they can to change and please the abuser. Only once out, can the survivor being learning the truth of reality and unlearn coping mechanisms that no longer serve them...." (Her kids never got emotionally out - or have yet to? "Enmeshed") "...If your subconscious believes you can conquer a danger, your body jumps into fight mode. If you believe there’s no hope, you might run away in flight mode. If you think you can not win by fight or flight, you may freeze. Fawn is when those three don’t work, so you find the best way to protect yourself is by unwittingly going along with it, give up and agreeing to the very person who’s abusing you for fear of what could happen to you if you stood up for yourself..... ...Your subconscious kicks in to protect yourself in these situations. You try certain things, as does a child of a narcissist. To see if it works. If it got the nice attention you craved even for a short time, or it stopped the abuse for a short while, it becomes a habit, you might end up with a few as there are so many things a narcissist will do for you to find ways to protect yourself against...." "...Due to the Trauma Bond, once you’re that far in the relationship, it’s hard to see what’s truly happening and walk free, or if it was your parent, you never knew any different. You feel guilty, walking away from the person who raised you, even though they harm you, as often there’s no physical harm, it’s hard to see." ************ (Evidently too much to say - too little time, lol)... Your daughter needs to know the latest research findings, that kids who are neglected--picked-on--bullied at home/by family members, get set-up to be picked-on-neglected--bullied at school (attractive to bullies and dominators). And, that I can see certain Aspergic traits in your descriptions of her (extra attractive to bullies).

Epiphany

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BTW, I think George's idea to join a single parent's club (the kids don't have to be little) is a really good one for an extra arm of support and coping aid, and so that you're approaching this problem in a cleverly multi-pincered way.

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