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First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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Been an overall bad day. I wanted to BBQ spiedies (pronounced speedy's, it's chunks of marinated chicken on a skewer put on Italian bread with toppings, a dish I grew up with) for dinner. Asked my wife to pick up the stuff and I would make it. She bought some cheap pre-marinated (wrong flavors) chicken on skewers. Wasn't very good. And while this is a minor thing that I can certainly get over, the day just snowballed from there. We then had to bring all of dinner over to her sisters house, because she invited them to dinner...but our house doesn't have the extra room for her family of 8. So we had to hurry up and eat there. Plus her kids (oldest is 11) were in a mood and pretty well ruined the 90 minutes we were there The reason that we had to hurry and eat, is because we do a 4th of July block party every year, hosted in our front yard. So we had to hurry home, to start making the homemade root beer and treats, then set up chairs and tables for the party. People show up and we start with the little fireworks, we save the big air born boomers for the finale. So we do the good host/hostess thing, get everyone set up with snacks/drinks and seated. Folks inevitably break into little groups with their lawn chairs so they can talk. We can finally sit down and relax. But my wife has to spend the next hour (event usually last 2-2.5 hours) catering to her sisters kids, because they are demanding attention. Due to my hectic work schedule, I have lost touch with some of my neighbors. So the few that I sat near, grabbed their chairs and moved off after about 10 minutes. So 1 hour after I sat down, I realized that nobody has said a word to me, not even my wife, and I spent the last 30 minutes playing on my phone, as the few attempts I made to talk to folks didn't really work out. Left the front yard and came inside to watch Netflix. Took 20 more minutes for anyone to even notice I was gone. Took the day off from work for this....should've just gone to work lol.

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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Heya! So...let's just clarify for any respondents: 1. Did your wife get the wrong items because she didn't put any effort in or because the item wasn't available and she didn't want to come back empty-handed? And if that's it, then, why didn't she simply ring you to let you know and check what substitution you wanted? 2. And is this worth a mention because it's typical of when she food-shops for you - or because it's a perfect epitomisation of what is a general, global attitude from her whenever you need any help or input? I suspect the latter, due to the fact you typed 'this is a minor thing', rather than 'this was'. If I'm correct about it being an oft-repeated frustration, then it certainly wouldn't be minor - and also would explain why it was enoough to tip your mood. 3. Excuse sarcasm, but...Was this the first time, ever, that your wife realised the house she lived in couldn't accommodate that many people all at once? I mean - why would she do that? Surely that was just a very round-the-houses way of ensuring that you guys would have to go to her sister's?....despite you had huge party prep to be getting on with? Does she manage to turn arrangements stressy and chaotic a lot? Because you sound like an organised type. 4. " Plus her kids (oldest is 11) were in a mood and pretty well ruined the 90 minutes we were there" Haven't her sister's kids been taught how to behave when you've got guests? Didn't sister- or brother-in-law tell the kid(s) off and get them to behave? 5. Do you suppose that you were giving off a, by that point, very stressy vibe and that's why people seemed to shuffle away? Or were you feeling under-appreciated even before that? Or are your neighbours just take-taking rude effers but this was the first time you properly noticed? 6. Why didn't you say anything to your wife about why people didn't seem to be making the effort with you, despite you were putting on this party for them? Or why didn't you elect to pitch in, help her out with the demanding kids? 7. Who was it that noticed you were missing?

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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1. My wife gets to be very disorganized and hectic when she is doing things. She seldom takes a step back to think, and is instead run by chaos. 2. This is a fairly consistent issue with her. If I am not there to slow her down, she often does things poorly because she is easily overwhelmed. 3. No, this was not the first time. And frankly, so long as we had the BBQ outside (which was my plan) we would've had room. 4. They have been taught, and they were reprimanded that day as well. Maybe I am old school, but I don't see "telling a child 6 times to stop" as an effective management technique. Maybe with 6 kids they get overwhelmed.....but then they should stop trying for more and more kids. 5. No, I was not giving off a stressed out vibe yet. I am consistently a very restrained person, and I effectively separate issues all the time. People usually don't know much about the issues I am having because I tend to keep them isolated until I am dealing with the problem directly. Unless like in this instance, they all build up and I decide it is just best to avoid the situation. 6. I didn't mention the neighbor avoidance issue, because she was busy with the kids. And I did not help with the kids for 2 reasons, firstly I was kind of done dealing with them for the day, and secondly she was trying to keep them entertained with toys and fun activities....that isn't really my wheelhouse most of the time. 7. I would guess that it was my wife's father who noticed I was missing, as I walked by him to go inside. I think he told my wife that is where I had gone.

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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Sorry for the wait, AKA - be with you tomorrow!

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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No worries. I don't expect much traffic on posts lol

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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Sorry, AKA, I was having connection problems and then, bam!, stopped completely (see me panic lol). All sorted now (touch wood!)... Just don't need urgent practical problems that involve running around in this heat, OMG... Anyhoo... **************** "1. My wife gets to be very disorganized and hectic when she is doing things. She seldom takes a step back to think, and is instead run by chaos." Can you elaborate and give examples of what you mean by disorganised, hectic, (impulsive?) and chaos, peas/fankoo? "2. This is a fairly consistent issue with her. If I am not there to slow her down, she often does things poorly because she is easily overwhelmed" Again - some examples and illustrations, please? "3. No, this was not the first time. And frankly, so long as we had the BBQ outside (which was my plan) we would've had room." Ah-hah. "She knew better", huh? But in ended up marring things quite considerably. Noted. Are we talking, she tends to dominate? And, you feeling as if she passive-aggressively (i.e. under even her own radar) SABOTAGES what otherwise could so easily be smooth-running incidents and events? "4. They have been taught, and they were reprimanded that day as well. Maybe I am old school, but I don't see "telling a child 6 times to stop" as an effective management technique." A-hah! No, it isn't. And the reprimander(s) HAS eyes and ears so... Isn't that reprimanding just making movements and movements and noises that ACCOMPANY their misbehaviour episodes, rather than DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, I.E. THAT WORKS? (OMG, even I'm starting to feel frustrated with her and them now!) (Commiserations!) "Maybe with 6 kids they get overwhelmed.....but then they should stop trying for more and more kids." That sounds a bit logical for this lot, LOL. But, yes. ALBEIT...are they Catholic and can't contracept? Did you KNOW you were marrying into a family that were (especially compared to you<) disorganised, a bit lackadaisical (minus the bit bit LOL), etc, before you wed and while you were test-driving her/them? And how come you didn't manage to out-vote your wife when it came to using the garden bbq versus having to go to sister's house? "5. No, I was not giving off a stressed out vibe yet. I am consistently a very restrained person, and I effectively separate issues all the time. People usually don't know much about the issues I am having because I tend to keep them isolated until I am dealing with the problem directly. Unless like in this instance, they all build up and I decide it is just best to avoid the situation." A sort of compartmentaliser who can put their own feelings aside whilst having to get on with something and 'perform' - yes, "snap". As long as you don't bottle-up, though. ...Although, I guess this is you unbottling, huh. Wouldn't you be heard or taken seriously if you had a sit-down with your wife about all of this? E.g. you could apportion duties, so... next time it was a gathering, that would be pre-agreed as YOUR skills domain so you'd be in charge. But then the same would apply to anything your wife felt strongly about and wanted to have free rein with. Idea? "6. I didn't mention the neighbor avoidance issue, because she was busy with the kids. And I did not help with the kids for 2 reasons, firstly I was kind of done dealing with them for the day, and secondly she was trying to keep them entertained with toys and fun activities....that isn't really my wheelhouse most of the time." Right, so we can't give them the benefit of the doubt over your vibe, because you'd literally put in a mental drawer and are comfortable about the fact people literally can't detect anything when you do that/that happens... Well, in that case, your neighbours are bloody rude freeloaders, aren't they? Or (think back carefully), would you say their behaviour fit with having been told something unflattering about you...bit of gossip or something? I'm just trying to work out how the neighbours could be so rude - but seemingly ONLY to YOU. And DESPITE you were one half of the Benefactor (you and the missus paid for it all). See what I'm saying? Either they were having too much fun to NOTICE you were sat on your tod for ages, or they did and for some strange reason, didn't care. Weird. What do YOU, hand-on-heart, feel it was all about? Be as seemingly-"paranoid" or -"persecution-complexed" as you like. Just try suspicions on for size, both innocent and not-so-innocent, and see which one sticks. You have emotional distance thus clearer viewing and thinking ability by now, so that should have eliminated any mental fluff and red-herrings? I mean, ACTUALLY GRABBING AND WALKING OFF WITH THEIR CHAIR? Despite not an immediate move - doing that presents to me as somewhat SNUBBING - doesn't it you? But again, it could be gross self-absorption and/or a compassion deficit. I mean, if you'd lost touch then surely you would have held more novelty value than the other neighbours in terms of a meaty catch-up? Did you try to engage them in conversation at first? How did that go? "7. I would guess that it was my wife's father who noticed I was missing, as I walked by him to go inside. I think he told my wife that is where I had gone." Well, if he told your wife then, she asked, hence, she was the one who noticed - yes?

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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PS: I'm available to post this evening...not tomorrow at all...then Wednesday by nighttime latest...and then probably not again until the weekend. Well, those are my plans, anyway...I'm sure Life must have some other detritus or bloody boulder to drop onto my progress path because that seems to be the way of post Brexit and Covid things, lately (grumble-grumble). ...Although, by saying that, hopefully I might have reverse-jinxed myself....sometimes works LOL.

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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Sorry for the late reply. Work has been a bit hectic. 1&2. Examples of her being easily overwhelmed are common, but oddly I can't pick a specific time as it is a regular occurrence. But the symptoms are always the same. It's like she suddenly thinks that she needs to accomplish every detail. So she'll try accomplishing it all, without talking to anyone or asking for help, and because she is overwhelmed she tends to take the long way to do things, or do them in the wrong order. 3. I would not say that she dominates. She just tends to not talk to people that are involved in the process. If I call her out on it, she is quick to remedy her behavior. 4. They do have religious beliefs about having large families, but nothing that prevents them from using birth control methods. They just want more and more kids. As for knowing about her family's disorganization and lackadaisical traits. I was aware of that, but I am the man of the house and I was willing to put in the work to get our marriage into a better place, if necessary. Unfortunately, we ended up having her Dad live with us after his wife passed, and I don't feel like it is my place to encroach on their combined behaviors. Her, I talk to about things but she goes right back to the bad behavior around him. 5. I have sat down and talked to her about things, but she is a very slow person to make changes in her behaviors/actions. It has taken me years to get her to stop trying to be a people pleaser towards everyone, because of how much time it took away from our marriage. 6. I honestly have no idea, why they moved away. I spend so much time at work anymore, that I rarely spend time with any of my neighbors. But I always try to help out if I see a need. This particular couple, got their car stuck at about 6am in the snow one winter day, still dark out. I was outside cleaning off my wifes car and warming it up when I noticed. Without a second thought I walked over and pushed their car back up in the driveway. Never needed to be asked and never needed thanks. It's just what you do for your neighbors. Even in my paranoid schemes, I can't come up with a reason. Unless maybe they witnessed some behavior from my household/sis in laws household (they live a block away and visit frequently) that they didn't like and were avoiding me out of an awkward feeling. 7. I really can't say if she asked him, or he went and told her. I was finally starting to show my irritation when I went inside, so he may have picked up on that and told her.

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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I might not really be adding much here, but I think in general things rarely go the way we want them to in life. We're at the mercy of a variety of factors, and it's hard to predict how an outing, especially a family event, will turn out. Looking on the bright side of the situation here, you have a wife and you have someone to spend the Holiday with. For some people there is no partner in their life, and no family or friends available for gatherings. And even if their kid was in a mood when you went to eat, it doesn't sound like the situation was ideal for eating to begin with, and anyone could get into a mood since that's a part of life. Your neighbors, well if they're going to avoid you because you haven't talked in a while that seems kind of petty. I'd say it's more likely that you were already feeling negative from the events of the day, and viewed that as being what happened. It sucks that everyone divided up into little cliques instead of staying as a group, but once again things don't always go just as you envision them. Your wife sees you every day, but not the neighbor kids. So she probably either wanted to see them or felt she was expected to interact with them. You got to make homemade root beer, you got to see some fireworks, your wife went out and bought groceries for you to grill even if that didn't go according to plan, and you even got to watch a little Netflix. Sometimes the victories aren't that great, but you gotta appreciate the little wins. This wasn't a day that was a 100% downward spiral for you, it was just not ideal. And, at least the day is behind you. Maybe you can find a way to make your next Holiday gathering a little more in your favor, perhaps by buying something to grill in the Fall beforehand, or making the root beer on another day and saving it so that way even if it isn't fresh, it's still a time-saver. To a lot of people, Independence Day is just another day. At least it is more than that for you and your loved ones.

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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@Balance. I can honestly say, that I wish my day could've been characterized as "just not ideal". It was drama from the moment I woke up, and I would have preferred to be at work lol. At least I would have gotten paid then (and probably had less stress).

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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Backatcha with the lateness apology. Had bloody technical problems (again)...and no help for days because it's (yet) another fiesta!...yayy!...NOT. Anyway, now I've lost my window so I'll have to try to find another in the next day or two. Bear with...

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Aka, Again - apologies for the wait and cheers for your patience! "I can honestly say, that I wish my day could've been characterized as "just not ideal". It was drama from the moment I woke up, and I would have preferred to be at work lol. At least I would have gotten paid then (and probably had less stress)." Yes, and it's saying something when you feel you'd have had a better day if you'd gone into the sodding office (scuse French). *********************************************************************************************************************************** "1&2. Examples of her being easily overwhelmed are common, but oddly I can't pick a specific time as it is a regular occurrence. But the symptoms are always the same. It's like she suddenly thinks that she needs to accomplish every detail. So she'll try accomplishing it all, without talking to anyone or asking for help, and because she is overwhelmed she tends to take the long way to do things, or do them in the wrong order. 3. I would not say that she dominates. She just tends to not talk to people that are involved in the process. If I call her out on it, she is quick to remedy her behavior. ******** 4. They do have religious beliefs about having large families, but nothing that prevents them from using birth control methods. They just want more and more kids. ******** (4b.) "As for knowing about her family's disorganization and lackadaisical traits. I was aware of that, but I am the man of the house and I was willing to put in the work to get our marriage into a better place, if necessary. Unfortunately, we ended up having her Dad live with us after his wife passed, and I don't feel like it is my place to encroach on their combined behaviors. Her, I talk to about things but she goes right back to the bad behavior around him. ******** 5. I have sat down and talked to her about things, but she is a very slow person to make changes in her behaviors/actions. It has taken me years to get her to stop trying to be a people pleaser towards everyone, because of how much time it took away from our marriage. ******** 6. I honestly have no idea, why they moved away. I spend so much time at work anymore, that I rarely spend time with any of my neighbors. But I always try to help out if I see a need. This particular couple, got their car stuck at about 6am in the snow one winter day, still dark out. I was outside cleaning off my wifes car and warming it up when I noticed. Without a second thought I walked over and pushed their car back up in the driveway. Never needed to be asked and never needed thanks. It's just what you do for your neighbors. Even in my paranoid schemes, I can't come up with a reason. Unless maybe they witnessed some behavior from my household/sis in laws household (they live a block away and visit frequently) that they didn't like and were avoiding me out of an awkward feeling. ******** 7. I really can't say if she asked him, or he went and told her. I was finally starting to show my irritation when I went inside, so he may have picked up on that and told her." ************ POINTS 1, 2 + 3: As if you, AKA - and now I - were expected to believe she suffered from some sort or other of learning difficulty (or was a Goldfish) - 1. your wife, DESPITE her methodology has proven...consistently....time and time again...to FAIL to yield the objective she claims to want (and cites as her reason for doing so each time - i.e. doing the whole shebang single-handedly and "killing it"), 2. not only FORGETS the very last occasion 3. AND ALL PRIOR occasions, note(!), 4. when (and despite) you'd had to pull her up over it and she'd immediately had to adjust her attitude/approach 5. and therefore (HAVING forgotten) - come the next time, defaults all over again to Queen Bee attitude, (6. instead of operating like a married/'married' couple - i.e. TEAM - which is what you naturally expect). Really - seriously? Then, Houston, you have a problem. But she does not behave as the dominant, you reckon. Noted. (That does not, however, exclude domineering (verb). But let's see (am formatting first, reading after...) POINT 4: Wouldn't "just wanting more" make them the definition (perhaps epitomy) of Socially Irresponsible? Do they get financial help from the govt/state? POINT 4b: Sounds like you've had your status and personal agency diluted by the arrival of her dad - yes? Is that a natural result of another Alpha Male entering the house or a consequence of how he - and/or he and she - have been acting and behaving? E.g. he and she getting to OUT-VOTE you? Does Dada not appreciate that he is merely a GUEST IN YOURS AND HER HOUSE? And that, therefore, he doesn't GET a vote where concerns yours and her social life AT WHICH HE IS A GUEST? Or is this man contributing financially to your mortgate/living expenses? A better place to enhance the relationship or fix it? If the former - why and in what ways did it need enhancing? If the latter - what happened, and when? How is it NOT your place if you're the man of the house? PS: hypothetical: Do you suppose she's trying to impress her dad every time she (tries but fails to) solely executes a task/project? POINT 5: Who's 'everyone'? How much time did it take away from your marriage? DOES she have a learning difficulty? POINT 6: I agree. I didn't realise these neighbours were no longer neighbours, had moved away. Has your wife been keeping in regular contact ever since? Re. what you said about yours/in-laws' households maybe: In that case, why feel awkward towards and avoid only YOU, though? Why not your wife (and FIL) as well? What sort of "some behaviour" at either household are we talking about, anyway? By the way, though: she IS behaving dominant, in one detectable way, anyway, if you think about it. She dominates tasks/projects. Completely and utterly. Oh, and, albeit that it relies on a comrad, she ALSO dominates you by effectively endowing herself with automatically TWO marital votes despite she's only one of two owner-partners in da house. I know it's so subtle and seemingly passive as to be Ambient, but - see it now? You're being dominated by a duo (and, if you ask me, by failing to take on board your task-intervention/rescue, a repeated show of passive-aggressiveness). Either purely by default of her father having moved in, or possibly by design (but maybe only as in, the side-bonus occurred to her) - your one partner has silently, wordlessly, become a duo to your solo...Two against One. He could decide to keep out of all such contentions up for the vote, of course - yes? That would be the right thing to do AS WELL AS a befitting show of gratitude and appreciation for your having agreed to take him in? Or was she already like this (hoarding tasks, getting to out-vote you over the bbq venue for example) long before he moved in? IF NOT... Can you think of any reason why she might have felt she'd needed the side bonus of helping her dad, of two against one?...by which I mean, is it really two or was she aiming to measure up to, i.e. equalise with you and your natural forcefulness of, say, one-and-a-half person, but the added ingredient proved heavier than expected, leaving it as Two Against One-and-a-Half? POINT 7: Would you say FIL means well but is getting over-involved?

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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...And is there room at the bottom of your garden for a timber guest chalet?

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...At least, I HOPE it's Passive-Aggressiveness (which means, doesn't register on her own radar, consciously unaware), or else, that leaves only Camoflaged.

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So there has actually been a blow up 2 days ago. I decided to just do whatever I wanted done, and to not involve anyone else. I started by throwing out some things that had been left around as clutter. Things that haven't been used in at least a year. My wife observed what I was doing and seemed to know better than to say anything about it, as I was obviously not in the mood for an argument. She even got up and started cleaning another area, throwing out a fair amount of clutter. Later, she wanted to talk as she noticed I had been distant. And I was distant, I was fuming about the clutter in the house and the lack of respect she has shown me in the last week. I'm not going to go into specifics, but she was basically doing whatever she wanted and shutting me down when I tried to get involved. During our conversation, we seemed to reach an understanding (hopefully it sticks). I explained to her that if the previous behavior was going to be the new normal, I was going to treat everyone else in the household like a roommate. And I was going to clean/throw out whatever I wanted, as I am the man of the house. She didn't want that to take place. So she has started treating me better, and doing more to keep us as equals and partners. She knows that I am keeping a close eye on everything, and that I won't back down this time as I have had enough. Now. Onto the key points of your previous post. Point 4. Nobody in the house is on Gov't assistance. My wife actually has a pretty good paying job that she does from her home office. My FIL is retired and living off his retirement benefits. Point 4b. No, it is not an alpha male thing. He has braced me once, and immediately realized that I would put him down. I am not a bully, but I refuse to back down to anyone. We have gotten along fairly well. Point 5. Neighbors, friends, church acquaintances etc. And no, she doesn't have a learning disability. She has a 4 year college degree and works as an accountant for the state. I would say more absent-minded. Point 6. The neighbors are still neighbors. I was referring to them moving their chairs away from me. As for her hoarding and lackadaisical behavior, she was like that when we were dating. I know she can be different though, because when we first got married we lived alone for a couple years. Our house was humble but clean and tidy from both of us doing the work. I think it is just easy to revert to her previous behavior when her Dad is around, he doesn't really encourage it. I think maybe his laziness feeds her laziness. You were wondering about room at the bottom of our garden for a chalet. We don't really have room for that, especially considering that I am getting ready to prep our backyard and turn the whole thing into a garden. With the current cost of food going higher and higher, I have decided we need to prep for a much larger garden next year.

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"So there has actually been a blow up 2 days ago. I decided to just do whatever I wanted done, and to not involve anyone else. I started by throwing out some things that had been left around as clutter. Things that haven't been used in at least a year." Uh-oh...! So what you're actually saying is - you blew a gasket and mounted a rebellion. "My wife observed what I was doing and seemed to know better than to say anything about it, as I was obviously not in the mood for an argument." Cheers for the mental picture, lol. "She even got up and started cleaning another area, throwing out a fair amount of clutter." Interesting! "Later, she wanted to talk as she noticed I had been distant. And I was distant, I was fuming about the clutter in the house and the lack of respect she has shown me in the last week. I'm not going to go into specifics, but she was basically doing whatever she wanted and shutting me down when I tried to get involved." Well, that's healthy of her, anyway. Question: did she just beat you to it? Would you have asked for a sit-down, eventually? Oh, it's been going on far longer than the last week, let's face it. You don't need to go into specifics - "I see dead people". (LOL) Dad moved in and she suddenly got all cocky, eh. What we want to know is, WHY. "(hopefully it sticks)" So this isn't the first time you've verbally lodged this complaint, then? "I explained to her that if the previous behavior was going to be the new normal, I was going to treat everyone else in the household like a roommate." You mean, treat them like a roommate BACK. (Sounds like pedantry, but it's important to describe these things correctly and precisely...there's a huge difference between treat and treat back.) "And I was going to clean/throw out whatever I wanted, as I am the man of the house." Yeeeaaaah....you've muddied your own water there. You're saying you're going to throw-out what you want because you're the man of the house but at the same time throwing-out what you want because you're reverting to how you're being treated - a mere housemate. Er.... Never mind, I think the fact you were clearing decks with a certain intensity and aggression was what counted. Normally, I'd be saying, 'Didn't we think to use our words instead?', only, if you're hoping this time it'll stick, then, I guess the time for words had long gone. "She knows that I am keeping a close eye on everything, and that I won't back down this time as I have had enough." GOOD! That's all it takes. Well, that and the other person being willing to make their own shift in line with the new, more assertive you. Yeah, I'll be watching this space with you, methinks. Something about this doesn't fill me with massive hope. Emphasis on massive, though. "Point 4. Nobody in the house is on Gov't assistance. My wife actually has a pretty good paying job that she does from her home office. My FIL is retired and living off his retirement benefits." No, I was referring to the over-sproggers. "He has braced me once, and immediately realized that I would put him down. " What does braced you mean? I've never heard that expression? No, I know you're not a bully. And now you've said that, I also know you're a bit of a sucker for guilt. :-) (That's a strength, btw....in the hands of the right recipient, anyway). You forgot to answer this one: "PS: hypothetical: Do you suppose she's trying to impress her dad every time she (tries but fails to) solely executes a task/project?" I rather think that being absent-minded may as well be a learning disability, don't you?...albeit it's pf a temporary, circumstantial nature? Is she trying to do too much? (...and refer to above unanswered question). I didn't know, until now, that she's a hoarder. Hoarder or someone who just never makes the time to de-clutter? "I know she can be different though, because when we first got married we lived alone for a couple years. Our house was humble but clean and tidy from both of us doing the work. I think it is just easy to revert to her previous behavior when her Dad is around, he doesn't really encourage it. I think maybe his laziness feeds her laziness." Ok, forget above question - you've just answered it. The woman has bitten off more than she can chew. She's been trying to meet your level and standard for order and cleanliness, but not really succeeding (heart not in it). Then she gets the moral support-boost of one of her posse moving in (dad) and - PLEUGH...she effectively starts to down Standards tools and flying by the seat of her pants/making it by the skin of her teeth...defaulting under pressure and said confidence boost, to pre-marital, family behaviour. Haphazard and "f**k-it, that'll do". (I can't work the neighbours out - other than, thoughtless and inconsiderate...and right at the wrong moment on the wrong day, making it the straw that broke the camel's back.) In what ways is he lazy? And do you know if it got on his late wife's nerves as well? Roger the garden. When exactly did FIL move in? And what are we talking when we say lazy? Not taking coffee cups back to the kitchen, not picking up after himself, generally? His room like a bomb's hit it? A Mr "In A Minute!" Man when it comes to household chores that are now his (I take it he has to pitch in)?

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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What I mean by the FIL is lazy, is that he very rarely gets out of bed even though he is actually pretty fit from his previous work. He doesn't do anything unless he absolutely has to. The majority of his day is spent laying in bed, watching TV and playing on his phone. Easily 80% of his day on the average day. And yes, it drove his wife absolutely bonkers with how lazy he was. It got to the point that she just started doing everything by herself, as it took too much effort to get him to help. We have all lived together for about 10 years. His room is cluttered, lots of stuff in it. Organized in a way to permit movement, but many things in there that don't need to be. Like dvd's and vhs tapes, all with a layer of dust on them. Bracing someone: when someone gets aggressive and in your face while yelling at you or berating you. And, no. I don't see her lazy behavior as trying to please her dad. As he doesn't really care about things along that line. As for hoping this sticks, we will see soon. I work every other weekend, and this weekend was a work weekend. So when I get Tues. off, I will be moving forward and doing more cleanup and she will be expected to help. I hate having to push her into this, as it feels like bullying, but at this point I feel like I also need to take the lead and get us moving in the right direction.

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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In reference to "hopefully this time it sticks", yes we have had this conversation many times.

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I think I get it. Houston, we have a tug-of-war going on here, between a functional adult male and a less- or (now his wife's influence is gone) non-functional. Over a woman, who's getting pulled towards whomever is dominant (think metal to magnet). Said women, as a caretaker cog in the grand machine, is doing what Terrence Real proved they unthinkingly, automatically do in relationships with men who have an issue or deficit or whatever....to make them feel more functional, basically. By taking away any contrast between he and she as could bring into sharp relief (think Anoretic stood beside Obese person in a communal changing room) any 'superiority' she possessses. She basically feels responsible for making him feel less bad about himself. E.g. non alcohol drinking woman marries heavy drinking male (forming a society of two) and before long is matching his intake ("no-one with drinking problems in this little circle, look!"). It can work the other way, though. If the bloke is really functional, more so than her, and she aspires to his level, she can choose to stretch up to it, adopt his way(s). It depends on the degree to which she stands on her tiptoes, however. If she stretches too tall she's easily toppled and has to keep taking breaks back on the balls of her feet (picturing it?). But it does sound as if your wife is being, or letting herself be, pulled back and forth...but less so in your direction, lately. Is she still grieving for her mum? Is she more pulled towards her dad and his "Ah, feck-it" influence out of empathy for his grieving? ************ 'Dominance' can simply be whomever spends more time around her. She's a bit of a sleepwalker. She's not a leader, she likes a manager. She matches whichever manager takes most control over a situation or offers/foists most input or, as I say, is in her forcefield for longer (or she, his). Sorry for this analogy, but - she's a bit like a sheepdog (but, as I say, comfy and happy in that role...albeit, saying that, her attempts to control function preparations lately therefore confuses me). She should be your sheepdog. Because she is. But now her previous owner has moved into your house, keeps calling her from your field to his, and is basically uggering-up your attempts to organise your sheep (spinning plates), which, normally, you're good at. I reckon her mother must have kept her father - AND her, growing up - properly plugged-in and organised. Either that or her father is still depressed and grieving, at having both retired and lost his...well - MANAGER as well as wife. This could be unthinking/automatic on his part, as well as a product of the set-up'. Or it could be his way of becoming the dominant influence over her (again)....to manipulate her into his late wife's space? Or maybe YOU? What's obvious is this: He's not exactly behaving like an appreciate, frankly, RESCUED, guest whom "when in Rome" does as the Romans do, is he. He's behaving like he's a paid hotel guest, really. Wouldn't you say? He's dragging down the previously quite smooth functionality of the household. Was nothing hashed-out in terms of the household lifestyle/culture into which he'd be slotting himself, BEFORE he moved in? ************* Well, anyway, he's the problem - in terms of catalyst - so let's look more closely at him: And PS: I fail to see how he could succeed at subtly shoehorn-ing his daughter into his late wife's space because she's more like HIM! (Duu-uuh? Or is this about sense of ownership?) "What I mean by the FIL is lazy, is that he very rarely gets out of bed even though he is actually pretty fit from his previous work. He doesn't do anything unless he absolutely has to. The majority of his day is spent laying in bed, watching TV and playing on his phone. Easily 80% of his day on the average day. And yes, it drove his wife absolutely bonkers with how lazy he was. It got to the point that she just started doing everything by herself, as it took too much effort to get him to help." 1. He was lazy and over-entitled towards his wife... (So it's not romantic or retirement grief making him like that, then. NOTED.) ...To the long, drawn-out point where she gave up and began to think of herself as The Lone Do-er....easier to cease relying on any input from him and so just got on with it, left the wickle baby to get on with doing what small children do (please themselves, playing with their toys for hours-on-end in their rooms). 2. And now he's your problem...including being or effecting as a very bad influence on his daughter, whose prior equality with you has dropped considerably. So has this crept up on you, more and more, over ten whole years? Or did it kick in years ago and you're just that incredibly patient and hopeful, but now have run out of both? *********** 3. And he tried aggressing you: "Bracing someone: when someone gets aggressive and in your face while yelling at you or berating you." But didn't try it a second time because you flexed your muscles back and showed him that wouldn't be wise. Can you tell me all about this, from start to finish, including where you were when it kicked off? And was it soon after this that you first noticed him pulling your wife back into past familiar ways/dynamics (disorganisation, lack of thought and preparation, chaos and certain failure if not for your stepping in)? Whichever... It is NOT behaviour one should EVER see from their own father-in-law. It is highly unacceptable and inappropriate. Or, I'm sure will be once you've given me the unexpurgated run-down (s'il vous plais). *********** "And, no. I don't see her lazy behavior as trying to please her dad. As he doesn't really care about things along that line." No, not her lazy behaviour. I was referring to her episodes of project-hogging, trying to do it all herself. But never mind... He doesn't care so it can't be him she's trying to impress. Maybe it's you - or herself to herself? Or maybe she dislikes your way of doing things, sees it as too regimented? Well, even if - the fact is, her Advert said A, B and C (and she even test-ran as equal to you) but what you've got in reality, nowadays - and far worse since he moved in - is D, E and F. "As for hoping this sticks, we will see soon. I work every other weekend, and this weekend was a work weekend. So when I get Tues. off, I will be moving forward and doing more cleanup and she will be expected to help. I hate having to push her into this, as it feels like bullying, but at this point I feel like I also need to take the lead and get us moving in the right direction." NO, IT'S NOT BULLYING. You were sold an advert and then were demonstrated that its criteria were true/factual! I know circumstances and influences change people during their lifetime but - NOT THIS?! Plus, by your own admission, she was HAPPY copying your "proper adult"-ness with you, and hence things went smoothly (probably WHY, EH!). No. She is allowing herself to slide into Incompatibility with you. She needs to revert to fulfilling what her advert and trial period promised, or admit that she's not in your league and never was and nor could be (couldn't keep it up, anyway). She needs to put her big girl pants on, re-plant her flag - where it rightly should be: with her LIFE PARTNER - and whilst she's at it, SHOW HIM UP. In fact, you and she together should insist on a long, sit-down talk about what is not working and why, and needs to stop. Otherwise, you're going to end up (I can bloody see it from here!) MUMMY TO TWO OVERGROWN KIDS! Your career will go to pot! So - yeah, you absolutely DO need to take the (wayward) bull by the horns! Bravo! But you do, the pair of you, have to present a united front. It is Him against His Benefactor-Host In Two Bodies. What ELSE did he expect the household dynamic to be??? (I don't think I like him, Sam-I-Am. Actually. He sounds arrogant, over-entitled, insensitive, 'superior', uncaring, self-centred (perhaps even -obsessed) and inconsiderate......ugh. You wouldn't catch ME behaving like that if my child and their spouse took me in like that, rather than leaving me bereft or plonking me straight into a home. No way! I''d be doing-doing-DOING...showing my appreciation all over the shop (including asking first, not just helping myself). And he has eyes and ears, can surely SEE the influence he's been increasingly having so... Yeah... NO.) (Am I Warm?)

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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(PS: "where it rightly should be: with her LIFE PARTNER - and whilst she's at it, SHOW HIM UP." Him, obviously means, FIL.)

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Tell me if I'm wrong, but... You seem to have married a teenager....whose father is a toddler....and who made it as far as teenagedom thanks only to the input of her one, functional, ACTUAL parent (mum). Burning question: Have you ever considered how similar you are to her mum?

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She doesn't seem to have her own generator. She either plugs into dad (and does eff-all) or plugs into you (and manages to succeed). And look what happens when she plugs into herself! Is this JUST domestic and social stuff and she's good at her business?

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Oh, and another thing (LOL)... if you think that is bullying then you have the opposite problem to being a bully! I don't mean wimp - you're clearly not that (you took- sorry, tried (haha!) to take me on not so long ago (which I like btw, no worries). I mean over-understanding, over-tolerant, over-patient, over-paternal/nurturing... Or do I. Maybe you're just healthy (hence prefer to be on top of things) and possess those qualities to their correct degree, and what is really happening is that those qualities are being exploited as a chink in your armour, and juiced too far...making it APPEAR that you're giving too much. Nope. You're Giving. But while you're giving, you're simultaneously being taken from (giving a Fiver while being pickpocketed a Fiver - makes Ten). THEN those qualities become Too Much. Get what I mean? It's your beeping day off! Which is rare! And instead of "having half of a weekend", you're having to do what LOADS OF ANNEXED, BEREAVED GRANDADS ARE BUSY, JOYFULLY DOING TO DO THEIR BIT AND HELP OUT! Bully? You? You're beeping kidding me, aren't you?

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Here's an idea! Send him on a cruise for 2 weeks and while he's gone, intensively retrain her back to her own happy smooth-running lifestyle state again - and this time, hard enough that she remembers how much she preferred it and vows never to lapse again (...one would hope?),. LOL - but ACTUALLY...??? Shall I organise a whip-round? LOL Sorry to laugh but it's Black humour. I've just got the full measure of the (er) man and he's ridiculous.

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If he wants to behave like that, he can do it in a Home where it's acceptable. Or The Hilton. But he chose to JOIN YOUR WORKING HOUSEHOLD. So he can damn well start behaving like it...while he still has the chance! It's your life. Your house. Your haven. Your place of safety and relaxation. Your marriage. You were willing to agree to your wife's wish to have him live with you (because that's the kind of really decent bloke you are). You've given it ten long years. It's not been working. Far from staying the same or improving - it's got worse, having just taken another downward shunt. Shape up, FIL, or ship out! No First Warning, either. He's had ten whole years of chances - to use his eyes and ears to take stock and adjust his ways and influence, like any grown man could. Instead, he's been relying on your daughter's bendiness of loyalties and your politeness and sense of awkwardness, both equalling Saying Nothing (or not enough), to get away with it. Whereas, as I say - HE SHOULDN'T EVEN HAVE NEEDED TELLING. I don't care how personable he is on the surface. I don't even care if he's offering financial contribution, formally or informally ad-hoc. He's slowly but surely turning your homelife, and romantic life, and you, miserable. Things on the ship were running perfectly well before he came. With an extra capable deck-hand, they should have got even better. Instead, they've been turning to Beep. Unless you're there to steer everything back on course (which you can't always be). (Can we say the you-know-what word yet?)

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I think you have a lot of this actually figured out. Got me tearing up reading your insights. How the hell can't she see this? I'll reply again later, a little too emotional right now.

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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Good. About time! Make it a really long one! Let the tears stop naturally, don't whatever you do try to take control of it. It's the toxins coming out (literally). :-)

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You've reminded me, actually....I was listening to a phone-in on LBC, about male mental health and how with the growth-spurt of women, men feel they no longer know their place. Included was one bloke on the line saying he didn't dare reach out to other fellas because of having been reared with the idea that men had to be strong. the second bloke on the line basically told him that he'd been given that back-to-front, that a man having the bravery to do so WAS THE VERY DEFINITION OF MALE STRENGTH and THAT was these lost boys' cause for feeling like the newly homeless gender! (There was a third guy but he just chimed in with Yeah!, LOL.) The complainant was completely stopped in his tracks. It's amazing the BS the patriarchal system has been feeding boys into men for so many centuries, isn't it? It's no different to telling them that real men don't poo! It's the chemical equivalent, doncha know. So many fellas...so much constipation....so little time.. LOL. I've spent my life telling men that their own tear-ducts aren't actually there just for decoration. Not you, obvs. But my point is - you go for it! Enjoy it! It is sooooooo cathartic and cleansing! It is if you don't interrupt it, anyway.

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So has this crept up on you, more and more, over ten whole years? Or did it kick in years ago and you're just that incredibly patient and hopeful, but now have run out of both? It has been pretty much since the beginning. I just didn't want to overstep by going after them about this stuff. Obviously after 10 years, I am sick of the meaningless placations and lack of action. Can you tell me all about this, from start to finish, including where you were when it kicked off? This was about 5 years ago. We all had finished dinner and we had talked about some things that needed cleaning up. They didn't want me around, as when I clean, I aggressively clean lol. Garbage is rapidly tossed, areas are cleared and wiped down, and if we don't use something it gets tossed as well. They claimed that it stresses them out. So I went to our bedroom to chill, while they did the cleaning. About 2 hours later, I come out and they are watching a home renovation show. No cleaning had been done. So I got p.o.'d and mumbled something about watching a stupid TV show about renovating a living room and I went outside. He followed me outside and started ranting that I had said something about the stupid people in the living room. I corrected him on what I said and told him if he still wanted to finish this, it was fine with me. And was it soon after this that you first noticed him pulling your wife back into past familiar ways/dynamics (disorganisation, lack of thought and preparation, chaos and certain failure if not for your stepping in)? He has not actively tried to pull her into anything, that I have noticed. I believe this is her choice, and she just prefers the lazier option. Burning question: Have you ever considered how similar you are to her mum? Interestingly enough, not until you pointed it out. Nope. You're Giving. But while you're giving, you're simultaneously being taken from (giving a Fiver while being pickpocketed a Fiver - makes Ten). THEN those qualities become Too Much. Get what I mean? I actually have felt like I am being taken advantage of for a while now.

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As for men, having to be emotionless workers and problem solvers. You have hit the nail on the head. When we were first married, I used to confide in her about everything. She was understanding of my problems and tried to help. Now, she'll listen, and she says she worries about me. But there are no actions to support these statements.

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So today, we had another talk. I told her I was going to clean as soon as I got home in the morning, because the trash gets taken away about 4-5 hours after I get home. She took this as her cue to get some cleaning done herself, and she filled both the garbage can and the recycling can. While I am happy that she took the initiative, she also just went around the house looking for tiny problems to use as filler for the trash/recycling cans. Not targeting any of the problem areas. But I guess we can hit one of those, in a week before garbage goes out again.

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I have also recommended that maybe her dad should get a part time job. It'll get him out of the house, give him some more spending $ so he can do things, and get him to be more active. He always wanted to travel, maybe the extra income could allow him to do that occasionally.

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Heya, "It has been pretty much since the beginning. I just didn't want to overstep by going after them about this stuff. Obviously after 10 years, I am sick of the meaningless placations and lack of action." Then I do hope you had a completely unbridled cry because that'll have collected a LOT of (never discharged or resolved) resentment - woah! Sire, you have the patience of a saint. That would be great if the recipient had had what it takes to benefit from it, wouldn't it. Well, let's ignore the fact that you've tried these talks before and place our faith in the fact that this time you mean business, which is bound to get properly conveyed this time so SHOULD pose to your wife (and dad) as a first, formal, verbal warning. (Because - trust me, if they fail to ship up THIS time, DESPITE you knowing you've made your deadly-seriousness clearly known, whereby they have no more excuses, including ignorance over the extent of how you felt, claimed misinterpretations, etc. - a formal warning is what it will automatically transform into (for you, in your mind). It might be a very clever idea - IF you can afford it - to seek a counsellor. What you'd be after, is a Constant. I often recommend people start counselling the minute they can feel a relationship holds serious potential. It's about having an extra pair of eyes and ears to keep you validated and grounded as you set about achieving whatever such project. Where, due to the detail and distractions contained in the real-time event(s), overlook anything untoward - the counsellor won't. It'd be like having an invisible friend - but with big guns, lol....certainly enough to make it a case of two against two (because right now, you're in a way, outnumbered, with your compensatory weight relying on your remembering that it's half your house and grandpa is only the benefactory guest (or IS he 'formally' and regularly paying anything - you've yet to tell me?)). In the meantime, it's important for you to bear this in mind - HIGHLY PREFERABLY after having watched some Jo Frost SuperNannys on youtube (same principles, similar methodology): you cannot possibly take two people who, by their (special, lol) nature, aren't exactly flexible and, indeed, could even be set like concrete. Try to make them 'do' a whole range of different movements could basically break them and send them into meltdown in terms of rebellion featuring cementing their heels in...even into concrete they'd never noticed or bothered with before (e.g. suddenly start doing badly things they never had trouble completing/remembering/taking responsibility for beforehand, etc.).... ..."SLOWLY, SLOWLY, CATCHEE MONKEY" is the very old and wise saying. One thing at a time and start small. You're basically going to creep this (this being, YOUR RIGHTS AND EARNINGS) up on them the way they did you (like fat creeps up on a "suddenly" obese person). I don't mean it'll take another 10 years (haha!), but what I'm saying is, you have to don a white coat and clipboard & pen and attack this scientifically, G...UIDING bit by bit with your hand on their back which then becomes imperceptibly day by week by month both more firm and faster paced. Another tip (works brill with toddlers - me, I can get a 3 year old RARING to clean and tidy their own bedroom AND doing it surprisingly well, LOL): make it fun and include rewards as incentives. E.g. right, help me shift this lot and then I'll get a lovely BBQ going for supper! If you do it right, eventually it'll all become The New Status Quo and not an "Owwwwie!" in sight! But it is an art, which demands great (hurrah!) PATIENCE. And tolerance. APPROACHING THEM LIKE KIDS but not talking to them or treating them like kids. And an abyss to intermittently scream into (here, obvs - or your counsellor if you think you're L'Oreal enough to afford one). Reverse psychology works very well on little kids, too...."Ohhh, don't worry then, I shouldn't have asked actually, my bad - it is an especially heavy table, now I think about it, yeah, no, don't worry, I'll ask my mate Hercules to come help me lift it". I.e. you're too weedy / I am NOT!?!...suddenly wants to lift table. Oh, and praise for a job well(ish) done, lots of praise and pointing out if they have a particularly impressive aptitude for something (feed their little egos so they want to repeat the act that brings and then becomes its own source of num-nums). So it's like starting at full volume and slowly turning the knobs down to wherever they still safely fail to notice ("Hey!"), panic ("Eek, ugh - CHANGE!"), and rebel ("Sure will!...(sure won't, grrr)"). So.....Were you AWARE before now that you were a dadda? LOL Welcome to fatherhood. Great! (, doesn't it, LOL). I'll keep my responses fairly segmented, continue below...

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BTW - quick intermission. You missed my earlier Freudian Slip, look (I noticed and then have been waiting to see if you'd spot it, LOL). It's subtle but it's in there and it's huge: "No First Warning, either. He's had ten whole years of chances - to use his eyes and ears to take stock and adjust his ways and influence, like any grown man could. Instead, he's been relying on your daughter's bendiness of loyalties and your politeness and sense of awkwardness, both equalling Saying Nothing (or not enough), to get away with it. Whereas, as I say - HE SHOULDN'T EVEN HAVE NEEDED TELLING." (Assuming you've clocked it: ) Eh? Eh? I should cocoa. LOL

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Giant clue: third para in quotes, second line down. (pmsl - "whoops!")

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"This was about 5 years ago. We all had finished dinner and we had talked about some things that needed cleaning up. They didn't want me around, as when I clean, I aggressively clean lol. Garbage is rapidly tossed, areas are cleared and wiped down, and if we don't use something it gets tossed as well. They claimed that it stresses them out. So I went to our bedroom to chill, while they did the cleaning. About 2 hours later, I come out and they are watching a home renovation show. No cleaning had been done." Uuuuuuhhh!? A whole precious evening for the bloke who gets only one weekend off in every two and a Tuesday (but in reality actually DOESN'T)... completely wasted...for zero reason, let alone a good one...? Gimmie the gun! (basically). I couldn't put up with that, sorry. Letting you sit upstairs for beeping nothing for all that prime time?! Do WHAT-AHHH! HAVE THEY NEVER HEARD OF THE CONCEPT OF BASIC RESPECT AND CONSIDERATION? AND SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY? OR FINISHING- NO, STARTING SOMETHING? OMG...WHERE DO I STOP? And this is an example. I.e. a regular type of occurrence.... I think I've just mystically Freudian-ed again - when I said about screaming into the abyss, LOL. *********** Saying all of that, though - you do need to keep yourself squeaky-clean and in-check if you're to grab the ship's steering-wheel and show (teach) them how it's done. Captains have to be beyond reproach. That means, you cant just (cough) UNILATERALLY decide to throw things out which in faact are joint, marital property. Unless, of course, we're talking merely empty vitamin tubs, for example...or clothing that's not fit for public sight....actual rubbish? If you act like that every time, then, that could be contributing to the pre-existing reticence of theirs, to get stuck in, "just in case" it again means losing something somehow useful or valuable to them? I mean, sure, actual full-blown hoarders have a problem (which they're trying to sooth with "stuff"). But trying to get them to basically release anchor from all these seabeds, done incorrectly, and too quickly, can be felt as quite traumatic. But back to them and that wasted evening: was this a deliberate ploy (just to assert themselves over you i.e. get to make you put yourself out per se and to that degree) or did they mean it at the time but just got too easily distracted to the point of forgetting you and the mess even existed? *********** Thing is, though: "So I got p.o.'d" Anyone in your position, would. In fact, I would have, even if I'd NOT been in your position ...or ANY position. That is just taking the giant piss and at the very least - in the event of a pure oversight - warranted a show from them of self-dismay, apology, and IMMEDIATE redress ("We'll do it right now! You sit down and I'll bring you a cuppa - here's the Remote! Really sorry again...!") "and mumbled something about watching a stupid TV show about renovating a living room" Again, it was your natural right to be pissed-off, and to deal with it how you need to, if you've kindly and cooperatively agreed to bend over backwards to that degree, only to realise too late that it was all for nothing (or, worse, sold on a false pretext? - which is NOT the way to deal with you if they indeed did have a problem with the chuck-outs or having to clean up straight after eating, say)...and now your back hurts. Your generosity got thrown back in your face. ....Yep, that tends to piss virtually all humans off, yep. "and I went outside." Fairenoughski. Obviously your gentlemanly way of taking the threat (you and the temptation to verbally lay into them) away to a safe distance, and to think straight. Normal. Ostensibly, stupid and very unbrotherhood-ly-like (LOL - Word Of The Day) of him to have done what he did next, then: "He followed me outside" Appears sort-of reasonable and fairenoughski as his own right - ON THE SURFACE. But, not, actually. Doing what you did, extricating yourself, is universally understood, certainly man-to-man, as a sign you want to be LEFT ALONE FOR A BIT...TO CALM DOWN. So AGAIN (well - to me, but then I'm counting as I go, LOL) we have a clearly-drawn-by-you, situational boundary line that Mr Man just BURSTS his way through/over and scrubs out with the heel of his foot1 So evidently HE'S not a gentleman, then, is he. (Bleugh.) "and started ranting that I had said something about the stupid people in the living room." I'll stop you (and everyone) right there because ...this is one of those soooo easily overlooked things about (cough) This Type: Here's how a properly grown-up, mature, civilised man would have done it (and note, this is the very basic minimum, even lacking any apology at that point): Him: "Sorry to disturb you, but, did I hear you right?...Did you call us stupid people?" You: "Huh? No! I said the PROGRAMME was stupid (anyway)" Him: "Oh. Ok...Yeah, I didn't think I could have heard right....just wanted to check. I'll leave you in peace again". See the difference? Ranting (going from 0-60 / shooting first, asking questions later, is Physical Intimidation and counts in a court of law as Violence (particularly as some experts say it's worse than Actual). Plus, it is going far too far, far too soon. It would only have been appropriate(ish) if, rather than merely mumbled under your breath, you'd, say, smacked his daughter hard across her cheek. So his choice of reaction (to your reaction to his bad behaviour) was Completely O.T.T. Let's look at all the taboos we can think of that should have stopped him from acting on his impulse (- hmm, Impulsivity, look): 1. He's in a guest in your house ergo could all too easily have ended up un-guested, pulling a No-No of a stunt like that!...so that ticks Taking Foolish Risks aka subconscious self-sabotage/destruction while taking the other down with them aka, No regard for their own or others safety as they Hellbent-seek to ego-win. 2. The nature of conduct has no call and no place between a father-in-law towards his son-in-law, anyway - anywhere, ever, EVER. IT'S A RELATIONSHIP DEALBREAKER. 3. If you know in your heart he would never dare be that bulshy with you out-of-doors and/or in front of any third party, it could count as Disrespect & (mild) Abuse Behind Closed Doors 4. Be it a party or long-term guest or paying lodger situation - just WHEN In Rome - you're never allowed to negatively accost a host (he's lucky you're not an Arab!)....unless you want to get immediately told to leave there-and-then. It's abusing your hospitality. You'd only do that if you felt you were safer than houses (scuse pun) - which the situation itself doesn't afford, EVER, anyway...(so that comes under Gross Over Entitlement and Anti Social Attitude & Conduct, then?) 5. It's entirely possible he could have gone too far even for his own daughter, and turned things with her sour as well (what - her reaction doesn't count?.......OR can be counted ON?...telepathic, is he?...or did she tell him to go after you?) 6. Any gratitude and appreciation for you welcoming him into your abode, on its own should have done the trick, but - nope...No Appreciation (The World Owes Him?/He's superior and special so His Highness deserves it?) 7. The shock and outrage might have had you going round telling everyone you knew for weeks or months after! 8. It flashes through your mind, the fact that if you DO dare do (beedoo) - you're going to end up having to do something significant to make up for it, so - ah, plagh, why bother!... (Is that Lack Of Forethought and Lack of Regard For/Concept Of Consequence?) Et le piece de rrrrresistance: 8. Normal, Healthy, Decent, Conscientious people who are a guest as well as occupy that relational role......JUST....WOULDN'T.....DARE. In fact, they couldm't even conceive of such low-down, over-entitled-and-arrogant, daytime TV trashy drama behaviour (- note). So what does that make him? Et le pdr parte deux: 9. Only you, as the victim of their bad or inadequate, understandably provocative and antagonistic behaviour (tick), had any right to be peed-off or make any complaint(s) as well as 'threats'/warnings/future deterrents. So now, evidently we can add - Stealing The Victim Cloak (by treating YOU as the unreasonable one when it was the opposite)....(so that means Gaslighting as well) (it's really not looking good, is it, given that he'd been a constant problem already up to that 5-year point and then the 5 years since). But re the reason for the act itself: Nope, he did NOT think he'd heard you say that. The mis-hear was a lie. He heard what you said just fine. He just said that so as to provide himself with an excuse of an opportunity to DEMONSTRATE to you that "you don't EVER get to be the boss of ME, not even in cases where I've bent your back then, as opposed to apologising and making-up, thrown custard full in your face, Ssssonny Jim!". (Well, HE was wrong, then, wasn't he, LOL) It's a common tack of your covert aka passive-aggressive, to light a fire above the table because, really, he wants to light a fire, unnoticed - or distract from one already lit - UNDER it. He just didn't like being told off/treated as inferior or not superior (despite it's intrinsic to the set-up whether he likes it or not), and what you saw is what he has always done in that situation - e.g. to staff and colleagues with complaints/criticism/suggestions at the ex-office (hope he wasn't in Customer Services? LOL) and, in the earlier years, towards his wife if she dared reprimand him towards getting him to change any such ways. Regardless, I'm very glad you squared your shoulders at him. It'll make things from here easier. "I corrected him on what I said and told him if he still wanted to finish this, it was fine with me." What did he do next, what was his reaction? And what did she do? And DID you ever get any apology from either of them, together or individually? Or a sneaky apperance at apology via doing you a "favour" or being extra nice for a day...anything?

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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"He has not actively tried to pull her into anything, that I have noticed. I believe this is her choice, and she just prefers the lazier option." I disagree. You could argue that he wasn't trying to enforce his culture onto yours on purpose. But - "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing", so - define Actively Pull. He's her parent, always, til his death (or hers, whichever comes soonest). Parenting includes setting an example, still lending a guiding hand if the parent can see their "junior adult" isn't managing or conquering something - this case, NOT constantly defaulting to being an antisocial or anti social marital partner. Exclamation-Mark. 'Pssst!...Sweetheart, can I have a word? Just thought you should know...I've noticed hubby is growing more and more unhappy with the mess and chaos everywhere...I've seen his face whenever he clocks it - basically, all the time! - and I don't think I've been helping, either, with all my crap now. Do you think we should have a tidy-up when he's at work tomorrow?...be a nice surprise...? After all, I don't want him getting mad at me for being a bad influence on you or something because that would make things really awkward or, worse still, he might end up changing his mind about having me living here with you! Plus, he's a good bloke, and a good husband to you, I'm really fond of him, don't want to be upsetting him unnecessarily, do I....' (Ohhh, the mental effort of that rocket-science!) (Does he trip over the rug a lot as well...each and every time?) So, nope, sorry - NO MAKING ANY EXCUSES FOR THEM. Pa-ssive. Pa-ssive. Passive. (Practise with me) Passive-Aggressive. Co-vert. Co-vert. Covert. Under-The-Table-itis. Under-The-Table-Itis. They're NOT REALLY kiddies who don't know how to do clever stuff that helps or prevents or avoids or fixes, you know? They just don't want to - and won't unless it's unavoidable or they're made to. ********** But now here's the tricky bit if he - and/or his daughter - have issue-based habits that are too deep down to ever be improved or capped: Like a dam that's sprung a hole - plugging it with a finger doesn't always work to stop the water coming through. What tends to happen is - a new hole bursts forth. So you reach over to stick another finger in the second hole....and before you know it, you're doing an Olly The Octopus. How's your own life going, meanwhile? Answer: it isn't. Since they're already p-a, any side-leakages will be no harder to spot than the usual front-on crap, but will be - or seem - slightly different, slightly new, irritating acts and behaviours. If. Let's see... Time always tells. ************ Re your wife: if, on any excuse, including "well, someone else is lazing around..!?", your wife drops to the floor and crawls on her hands and knees, rather than walks upright on two feet - what would you conclude: that she was a biped or a quadraped? Albeit, you haven't told me whether she's doing too much of other stuff (because she's giving it higher priority, perhaps?), including her day job, or, indeed, whether she's successful at her freelance job or is slapdash there, too, and tends to let clients down a lot, etc.?

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"As for men, having to be emotionless workers and problem solvers. You have hit the nail on the head. " Fankooverymush. Hitting nails on heads is my special speciality. "When we were first married, I used to confide in her about everything." Well, you do, don't you. It's a big deal, being married. It's a momumental position. The person IS your home. And IS your family. And your future. They're you're one, guaranteeably safe person. Or so you believe. Because it's what you're supposed to expect. Including, telling each other virtually everything about what you think and feel, as you think and feel it that is relevant to your shared, primary, day-by-day experience/existence. DAMN right you expect to share things. (Including the overall workload.) "She was understanding of my problems and tried to help. Now, she'll listen, and she says she worries about me. But there are no actions to support these statements." And did she tend to confide in and lean on you, too? Also, when she did, would you tend to hear-out her opinions and ever take her advice? What WERE these past actions - can I have an example? You didn't complain about the same problem(s) for longer than reasonable because you took too long to try fixing them, I take it? ************************************************************************************************************************************************************ "So today, we had another talk. I told her I was going to clean as soon as I got home in the morning, because the trash gets taken away about 4-5 hours after I get home. She took this as her cue to get some cleaning done herself, and she filled both the garbage can and the recycling can." Ok - noted. "While I am happy that she took the initiative, she also just went around the house looking for tiny problems to use as filler for the trash/recycling cans. Not targeting any of the problem areas. But I guess we can hit one of those, in a week before garbage goes out again." Tsk. Let's disregard your Ah Well! comment at the end there and just focus on what just happened: You had a talk, which - by the fact of your having announced it to her - and like that - would have made it obvious you expected her to do her share of what YOU were doing. Instead, she did 5% of it by collecting up the (basically) detritus left by the Fairies. (You sure it was a bin and not a thimble?) Pa-ssive A-ggress-ive Specifically - piecemeal aka fob-off aka enough to shut you up. I am not impressed. And no, you're not happy. And I'm noting strongly how you're lowering your expectations by expressing gratitude for "Well, maybe I didn't get the roast beef and potatoes I ordered and paid for, but at least I got a few peas and dots of gravy". You didn't sign up for crumbs. Does she - or did she ever - get crumbs from you? This was her chance. TWO talks. She knew this was important to you, to the extent where regaining your welfare depended on it. If she'd disagreed with your attitude and expectations, she had every grown-up chance to say so. Yeah. Quadraped. Jury's in on that score. Unless!...... She's not a Borrower, is she? Or a mermaid? Or just a head and neck on a wheeled trolley with only one arm and shoulder? That would explain it? No? Oh well...it was worth a shot. Scuse sarcasm, but I'm bitterly disappointed on your behalf.

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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So, what about this: "I have also recommended that maybe her dad should get a part time job. It'll get him out of the house, give him some more spending $ so he can do things, and get him to be more active. He always wanted to travel, maybe the extra income could allow him to do that occasionally." Aaaand - what happened next, what was her reaction and what did she say? Tip: if you react to something, let me know what it was you reacted to as well as what followed your reaction. And if you're the protagonist or antagonist, let me know what reaction you got and what you then replied/responded with. You basically keep leaving out the punchlines, LOL.

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And did she tend to confide in and lean on you, too? Also, when she did, would you tend to hear-out her opinions and ever take her advice? What WERE these past actions - can I have an example? Yes, she used to and still does. If she just needs to vent, I can do that and just be a listener/snuggler for relief. She has also come to me in the past with problems at work, and asked for my advice. We will usually sit and talk things out about it. I can usually provide a solution, but if I can't usually the act of talking it through and asking pointed questions will give her an answer. What did he do next, what was his reaction? And what did she do? And DID you ever get any apology from either of them, together or individually? Or a sneaky apperance at apology via doing you a "favour" or being extra nice for a day...anything? Now that you mention it....no! Lol. His reaction was to play it off as a misunderstanding and go back inside. Aaaand - what happened next, what was her reaction and what did she say? She listened to the idea, but I doubt she will ever broach the subject. I have personally told him before, that maybe a part time job is something he would want to try....but he has never shown any interest. I think he only does something if he HAS to do it. And with the living situation we have now, he does not HAVE to work. I am really not leaving out the punchline lol. A lot of our conversations just seem to taper off or abruptly end without any real solutions being met.

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So the weekend is coming up. Which means trash will be going out again in a few days. I asked my wife, what she thought we should clean. Giving her the opportunity to be a team player. Since all the inconsequential stuff was mostly dealt with last week, she had very few options. She chose to finish the kitchen. It is a small project..... Pardon me, but I am internally cussing myself out. I just realized that the kitchen project is another attempt at placating me. It has very little garbage, and is mostly tools and paint that were used when we redid the kitchen. There is still 1 final piece that needs to be done, and I can rush through that in probably 10 minutes (been waiting for her father to help while I work), it is just hanging a railing on some stairs to the basement. The point being, there is nothing to throw away except for some tiny items here and there maybe. The clutter will be removed back to tool boxes and such, but there is no junk to get rid of. Guess I am going to be putting my foot down again. This could be an uncomfortable weekend.

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Update. Got home and filled our garbage can from empty. Leaving enough room for a garbage bag before "garbage day". Took me 11 minutes, and I did sort through and keep some stuff. In reference to my burying the plot comment. It isn't like nothing ever gets settled in our conversations, I just take people at their word when they say they'll do something and don't push it.

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Finally! Finally! Got my wife to join me, on making our home presentable. She was aware that I did some cleaning this morning. She even did a little bit more, on the problem area I was working on afterwards. BUT here is the big deal. Since I work nights, I sleep from morning til afternoon. I found out that her Dad started rummaging through the trash, trying to find stuff to "save" (he saw me throwing things away on our doorbell camera). She actually went outside and yelled at him to stop taking stuff out of the garabage! I know this all isn't over with, and there is still work to be done. But I am so, so glad that she is finally doing the right things to help our household move forward.

First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

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"What did he do next, what was his reaction? And what did she do? And DID you ever get any apology from either of them, together or individually? Or a sneaky apperance at apology via doing you a "favour" or being extra nice for a day...anything? Now that you mention it....no! Lol. His reaction was to play it off as a misunderstanding and go back inside." Ok. That's known as - JUSTIFYING THE UNJUSTIFIABLE (check!), namely, his bad, socially inappropriate and unacceptable attitudes, conduct and behaviour, - including using PHYSICAL INTIMIDATION TACTICS (check!) aka threat (immediate and ongoing-subsequent of violence/"fisticuffs"), - AND AT *HIS* AGE?! (rhetorical question -) ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! (check!)...showing you he could, - AT THE DROP OF A HAT (check!), - AND WITH UNREASONABLY TOO LITTLE "PROVOCATION" (check!), . thereby showing, either he has no concept of or no regard for how that kind of domineering, uncivil, behaviour went out with the dinosaurs (check!), - instead of doing the only right thing in apologising (check!), - when he too clearly was in the wrong BOTH TIMES, as made this a case of Needlessly & Avoidably Adding Insult To Injury (check!).... - almost as if he WANTED to (or didn't mind if he did) make things WORSE, not better (check!) - and leave them that way to set in stone (check!). That's the Narcissistic traits and behaviours bit covered. So, far from acting like your normal, typical, well-grown, experienced, hopefully at his age, WISE man who, through copious practise, can put OUT a spark or wee fire as par for his social and worklife course, - he thinks his best course of - let's not forget ANTI-GUESTLY (check!) - action, is (and although one doesn't necessarily seek gratitude, what one definitely doesn't ever expect is ANTI-gratitude!) - to POUR FAT ON IT (bloody check!), - thereby taking the foolish risk (check!) of you turning around and telling him that he had just made his staying there another day/week in your once-harmonious, well-conducted, well organised family home, untenable (to ANYONE in your position!)...or at the very least - a first and final verbal warning. (So, then, we can safely assume this marks the moment when full over-cockiness kicked-in on his part. Evidently because he'd already for too long been getting away with abusing you and your hospitality, and crashing boundaries (incl the biggie of ever sticking-up for yourself again) (they always underestimate us and overestimate themselves, no worries, being picked-on is perversely flattering) in pettier, tinier, subtler ways, which would only have fed his power and bad attitudes along with it.) - All adding up, basically, to an attitude of Gross Over-Entitlement (aka taking liberties all the time while being incapable of being grateful) and Gross Immaturity. And that's the Narcissistic Sociopathic (aka Narcopathic) bit (some of it). (While I've got a decent chunk of time, I'm just ensuring to give you all the terms, both colloquial and clinical, so's to build you a faster ether surfboard for understanding it all, as it'll help re-grow your rightful sense of power and status, btw. E.g. "Narcopath". Not used that frequently but will bring up refreshingly different angles to view from.) *************** Whilst I'm at it...Little known fact and handy tip, based on experience: Sometimes they act up because they want to tame and dominate you and sometimes because vice-versa. It's like they're saying: I can do Dependent-Kid-Slave & Victim, I know that role well, grew up in it. I can do Authoritarian Parent-Master-Perpetrator, I've seen and felt that one being done too, again, grew up with it. But as I have one short leg and one long, I'm without Balance so if you think we're ever going to have the one, most vital relationship key, known as (overall) Equality - forget it, ain't ever gonna happen...if you're not gonna be my obedient kid (privately and in pulic), despite I make the shittiest parent in town, then you're gonna be my tireless parent (privately only). You can't do Equality if you've never had it repeatedly demonstrated and/or explained to you time and time again for two decades, can ya, nor (as happens) ever got to mix with types who could. And you can't retro-learn it if you've been raised to have a (special) learning difficulty (mind forced into deformity). Again, time, consistency and repetition from The Light Side is all that can counter same from The Dark Side, which takes time. If you run into barbed wire, the only painless and/or clothes-saving way out is going to be a slow process, featuring reversing out EXACTLY as you went in. It might even be dark by the time you get home. Some say retraininig them can't be done, some say it can. I got so close but suddenly mutineered (you don't know true frustration until that!), but I've self-healed what you're not supposed to be capable of healing, so - no such word as Can't. Only Could or Couldn't. Whether they "R1" or not, or how hard-set, depends not on What (we all occasionally can do a What), but the How and To What DEGREE (weight, frequency) and whether there's a legitimately extenuating allowance for it (circumstantial stress too much for most humans to cope with). So you have to know thy patient. Carrot works better than stick. They're paranoid about sticks, understandably. Harnessing egos, but for the power of good (what works for all), is not difficult. Especially when they don't ever expect it from you because you're so polite. (They don't understand that politeness for healthy people is a form of protecting the other as much as the self, they've been taught it's grovelling and beseeching out of vulnerability or soft-soaping out of neediness/greediness. Again - kids...who never attended emotions school (neglected/constantly distracted from joining dots), or worse - actual school (delinquents).) Don't, whatever you do, "brain" yourself by failing to recognise when you're merely banging your head against a brick wall. Leaving a bad situation/irredeemably corrupted culture is not quitting, it's escaping. Hence the film wasn't called Quit From Auschwitz, LOL. ********** Anyway...Apology would obviously have been his guarantee-ing he wouldn't ever be doing "that" again. Why would he do that, when it's clear that what he was after, was for you to think twice in future before ever (1) merely verbally standing-up for yourself as is your right (how very dare you, you inferior being) (check!) a perfectly natural (albeit mistaken as under-assertiveness by Mr Thickie) (check!) response to unfair, inconsiderate, thoughtless, disrespectful treatment by he and his daughter, more befitting a pair of 7 or 7-year-olds or over-distracted, young teenagers (check!), thereby SPLITTING LOYALTIES AKA TRIANGULATING BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR WIFE (check!), by eroding her respect for you (by outwardly disrespecting you in front of her and repeating it from there), (2) despite it was happening in your own home (ffs!), as gave you even greater right, and, in the process, (3) your having dared to criticise (check!) The Great Oz/Queen Of Hearts (off with his head!) while role-modelling laziness and carelessness (all over again) in front of his daughter (refresher Ambient Brainwashing course, anyone?). Meanwhile Mr I'm So Grateful You Rescued Me By Taking Me In That I Can't Help Over-Showing It, is "showing" his gratitude by: - lounging around, all day every day (check!), - at your joint marital expense (check!) - while failing to contribute financially (check!) - or not in any way you can or dare firmly state (because I've asked you 3 times), nor with household and garden chores, meaty or otherwise (check!), . failing to, out of sympathy or respect (when he has eyes and ears), offer to find or ask to be given (loft?) alternative storage for his ...are those tapes and DVDs personal memorabilia or just entertainment?...whichever - not suggesting alternative storage (check!) for his HOARDING/CLUTTER (check!), thereby significantly pulling down the tone (check!) of the house via roll-on effect. A MAN OF HIS AGE AND EXPERIENCE IS SUPPOSED TO BE MORE CAPABLE THAN *YOU*. He should be heightening your own mascuine maturity...by guiding, suggesting, showing you both how it's done, basically, even teaching you new and handy tricks!...paying it forward via a sense of social responsibility and never-ending paternal instinct as wants "the wee bairns" to continue prospering long after he's gone. He's a child. He hasn't got a beeping idea. He's mild and subtle, though. But....Pebble In The Shoe (this case, Slipper), if you can't ever remove it, soon morphs into sharp shard of glass. Yeah, with his pervasive attitude going constantly in her eyes and ears, he would have had a bad influence on her, alright. And during her blueprint years, sadly. Which mum would have tried to counteract and remove all the time (I call it having to de-louse the kid after any extended contact). Do you agree that thus far he's been ticking one heck of a lot of narcissistic-sociopathic behavioural boxes? Especially when we remember to include the afore-esablished Impulsivity (which when that huge a display, represents the same - or greater - weight than the "Pervasive Pattern" criterion (of drip-drip-drips)). Oh and by the way: despite the visual and audial chaos and amount of legs you describe, that BBQ afternoon, I find it strange that he so easily managed to keep tabs on you (not lose focus of you) in terms of where you'd gone and how long for. Funny, that. Eh? FUNNY, THAT! (I expect you hadn't realised before now, how utterly fascinating you were, eh?) So what's that? The thin end of the stalking wedge/tip of the stalky iceberg? I repeat, thin end?tip. But it's characteristic of your machinators (or counter-machinators like moi, hence it not having escaped my own notice) to be constantly keeping their beady eye on their targets/threats/competitors, individually and en-masse (how they interact) to that intensity...studying them and their "weaknesses" (being human, having feelings) for future ref (arms cache). Well, thank God he's no Spring Chicken, then! If he was, I'd be saying . dump the dud without his noticing until it's too late and he's no route back to you - quick! OMG, if he was, he'd be unbearable, uuuuuugh. He's probably too old to change - but not to curb (toddler-training) - notwithstanding inevitable side-leakages, as explained (and hopefully not for too long that you get ambushed/mutineered by your Auto Pilot (have you heard me explain that one yet?). He'll just have to behave by-rote, won't he (join the local working man's club...take it out on some poor bstd there (*rolls eyes*)), if he wants to keep borrowing a home that's half yours? And here's the rub - if rightfully insisting he "do as in Rome" (at least moreover...you don't want to merely swap places with him, there should be SOME compromise and allowance-making) doesn't change a thing and you DO run out of patience: Where a partnership consists of two individuals with equal company shares and say, then nothing but a unanimous vote counts as a Yay. If one of you objects, it's automatically a Nay...majority agreement has not and cannot be reached. Furthermore, you're allowed (because it's a personal not biz relationship, as features empathy and shared goals) to change your mind if you then get the information to say, "I've been more than reasonable in having given it more than a fair trial and, having your slovenly, disrespectful, subtly, frankly, sh*t-stirring dad move in has proven to be a really bad idea for all concerned, so either he or we will have to find him his own place, sorry. It's obvious he's not really happy here, anyway - grateful and happy people just don't behave like that"... And PS, just in case: Plenty of us have struggled with serious grieving for a close loved-one before, but still manage to metaphorically chew with our mouths closed or walk a straight line without knocking (only other people's) things over - so don't let that be any excuse, either. Plus, even if we HADN'T done anything or all that much wrong, because his daughter should be old enough to NOT let herself be dumbed-down just because "well, HE'S doing it?!" or "well, he started it?!" or because she's never been made to "plug in" properly - so what? Just knowing we have INADVERTENTLY been having a bad influence as has been rocking the marital boat would have us agreeing or OFFERING to exit the once-cosy nest toute suite, or, alternatively, promising faithfully to put that right by changing our behaviour, starting Now. BECAUSE WE WOULDN'T WANNA BE THROWN OUT (duuh). NOR DAMAGE OUR DAUGHTER'S MARRIAGE, POSSIBLY REST OF HER LIFE (duuh). OTHER-WAY-ROUND FOR OUR TYPE, PROBABLY! And if we HAD a puny, starving, greedy ego that couldn't cope with no longer being King Pin (leaving aside, that his version means despot) - we'd find or create an ALTERNATIVE role vacancy for ourselves...be it family handyman, gardener, mechanic supper-maker, chauffeur or hooverer or Agony Uncle OR WHATEVER. Adults find a place for themselves in this world. We know the world in macro or micro, can't change for us. So we adapt. "Adapt or perish" - Darwin. He clearly doesn't care and probably isn't capable anyway (let's see) - just as long as he gets to continue living his life doing little but constantly playing and pleasing himself, with zero adult responsibilities or obligations, nor taking the initiative - no concept of them! - like the spoiled little kid he is (since whenever he first was taught he ruled the roost and could behave as he liked, when he liked, never having to apologise, learning to cope with his bad moods or force his will, by throwing one's Hotwheels at the wall...etc.), getting adopted and looked after by whatever Mamma or Dadda is willing and available - IMO, he wouldn't care who they were. I suspect he'd be perfectly happy in a home, actually. I mean, look at his lack of PRIDE in his (I'm sure - lovely) bedroom. Speaks volumes. *************************** ...BECAUSE: "Aaaand - what happened next, what was her reaction and what did she say? She listened to the idea, but I doubt she will ever broach the subject. I have personally told him before, that maybe a part time job is something he would want to try....but he has never shown any interest. I think he only does something if he HAS to do it. And with the living situation we have now, he does not HAVE to work.! This clearly wouldn't get you anywhere. "I am really not leaving out the punchline lol. A lot of our conversations just seem to taper off or abruptly end without any real solutions being met." Got it. Narc Symptom. Her case, Narc Fleas/Ticks. His. Which we know from the fact that she and you ticked along (scuse pun) perfectly nicely before he landed. Failing to return your tennis shot, like that, as a way to stop the rally - or whole match - just because she can't compete as an equally-seeded player is so childish and a sign of ineffectualness. She got moulded into a bit of a cowardly-custard in terms only of confrontation (because she does have aggression - she just hides it from herself and others). ***************************** Now, then, we're presuming she's thrilled with this new set-up, but for all we know, she's actually not (and hiding it and making the best of it) and also was happier before, but...GUILT...."Can't do that to him, he's still my Dad".... "Plus now he's my only remaining parent so more precious than ever".... "Plus I'm not a nasty person so I couldn't be so mean"..."Mum would have wanted me to look after him"...blah-blah excuses to avoid the real issue. So, yes, take back your rightful, earned status, power, CAREFULLY CULTIVATED & NURTURED, FAMILY CULTURE. Also, know that she has less right to vote, anyway, because SHE'S not the one being endlessly needled and having her welfare chipped away (even by his mere, bloody presence in the house by now, I'm betting!), is she. 'She's Alright, Jack!' So many victims end up buying the behaviourally-manipulated illusion that the perp has all the power, over them. Au contraire. The reason they want to bound and gag you is because, otherwise, you're strong and powerful, aka a threat to their Supersized-ness...more than their equal - their SUPERIOR (all parts working fine, still capable of climbing life ladders). Big Dogs Don't Bark.. Don't need to. Nor spray their urine over every skirting board to "defend against" what is just some wee, docile, toy dog in the corner. Innit. ****************************** I see your wife put up a bit of resistance at first before happily caving - AND was perfectly happy, still, afterwards? Whether you tackle him head-on or not - if he's staying, you need to introduce a household chores rota. It's standard practise when there are more than 2 adults in the house, like your rent-sharers. It prevents what's known as Diffusion Of Responsibility. I'd leave it up to you, whether or not you wanted to include awarding them Gold Star stickers to display on the 'chart' every time they complete something to-schedule, LOL. ("It's pettiness, Jim, but not as we know it".) ****************************** "Since I work nights, I sleep from morning til afternoon. I found out that her Dad started rummaging through the trash, trying to find stuff to "save" (he saw me throwing things away on our doorbell camera). She actually went outside and yelled at him to stop taking stuff out of the garabage! I know this all isn't over with, and there is still work to be done. But I am so, so glad that she is finally doing the right things to help our household move forward." Bloody Nora - no WONDER you needed a cry! You married Dave from The Fast Show! Look!... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvjk47UORFs Hopefully, now I've just made you laugh. But, actually, Indecisiveness, including trying to be on both teams at once yet, unawares, TOO readily and easily sucked-in - making it Split Loyalties - are both typical in long-term victims. ******************************* Sorry if this is an over-long one with insufficient order, btw. It's so hot and sweaty today, I've had to do it in chunks, plus it's hard to think straight (gasp!). You'll need to read it more than once, though, it's a bit of a foie gras-ing. PS: Freudian was "your daughter"(LOL) PPS: I'm afraid it matters not if verbal agreement to do something ever got reached with your wife, if the task never got done (or done too late). Only actions ever prove if it had been sincere or just them telling you what you wanted to hear as a tactic to inconveniently delay or avoid doing it (by giving you enough time to forget or fold in defeat). And only YOUR actions will make them sit up, pay attention and take you seriously (if they have it in them). PPPS: I sense you're gearing-up to 'have' a baby. All this "urgent" nesting behaviour. Are you?

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