Is my boyfriend bad news?

Visiting daughter and son in law out of state with boyfriend of 18 months and it hasn’t gone as smoothly as it should. My boyfriend feels slighted by my daughter and says she barely talks to him and monopolizes me. I don’t agree with this entirely and only see my daughter a few times a year. My son in law has spent time with my bf and all 4 of us have too. my daughter says she and my son in law think my boyfriend is taking advantage of me financially. He claims to be wealthy and I’m financially comfortable too but he seems to have an issue with spending money on occasion. My daughter gave us her car to use while visiting and that saved my bf from renting a car. While we only used it on occasion he never offered to pay for gas. When we stopped for gas and I looked at him to use his credit card after I had offered mine to my kids and they said we don't want you paying (they meant me not my bf), my bf said no and what's the difference? He did pick up groceries for himself but still ate their food and never offered to replace it. He also never paid for dinners until today the last day when I suggested it and he paid for lunch the other day when it was just me, him and my daughter. It was not an expensive meal not that it matters but quizzed me since I ordered wine and he asked if my wine costs that much. Either I’ve paid or my kids have paid for the dinners my kids also paid for parking wherever we went and my bf never offered. He directed me to give a tip to the parking attendant and said he had no cash but I should go ahead and tip the guy. My kids overheard his statement and were shocked. I’m not sure which direction to go. Right now my daughter and bf aren’t seeing eye to eye. My bf is upset bc he wants me to move in and thinks I should just tell my daughter but he doesn’t know she doesn’t like him bc he is cheap and unappreciative. I don't get it...my bf is usually thoughtful and has good manners. Could it be we were visiting "my" daughter so he didn't expect to pay for much? The purpose of the trip I told him was to get to know my daughter better b/c she didn't know who he was so you would hope he'd put his "best self" out there.

Um, wow. He should have offered to pay for gas. A generous person would have run the car through the car wash, too. He only purchased groceries for himself, ate their food and didn't replace it. Didn't pay for parking. Whined about your wine. You're staying with them, I'm thinking, so not paying for a hotel, and he only took them out once, and you had to suggest it? Cheap, cheap, cheap. It's one thing if you're only in town for a day, or if you're staying nearby in a motel, hotel. This goes beyond frugal right to skinflint. What's troubling me most about this is that at 18 months into your relationship, you really don't know what his financial situation is, and what he's told you is not backed up by his actions. I'm better off than my currect guy, but not independently wealthy. (As in, I still work a full time job at 66 years old with no immediate plans to retire.) But I knew, by a few months in, what the situation was. He also wanted me to move into his home - because it was in foreclosure and thought I could save it. I was honest about telling him why I wasn't going to be doing that. The home was forclosed on, it was sad, but I needed to look out for my own best interests. When visiting spouse's / partner's family and friends, we need to understand and accept we won't be the center of attention. It's going to be about their relationship, and we get to sit back, listen to the gossip and absorb while they talk over old times. All this is coming from a widow who has encouraged other widows to move forward with new relationships (if they wished to) and reminded them to remind their children that the kids won't want to be burdened with being Mom's only sourdce of companionship. However, you don't know much about Man-friend's financial situation, only that he *claims* to be wealthy. I didn't do this, but some people in their golden years actually DO look at one another's tax returns and financial stuff. With his words so at odds with his behavior, this is overdue. As for the importance of getting to know one another, I'm not of the same page, I guess. My man-friend's grown children live hundreds of miles away. I aim to be on good terms with them, but with the distance, we will not be a day-to-day presence in each other's lives.

I’m a widow for almost 12 years and turning 66. Trying to semi retire and thought I finally found someone nice that I didn’t have to worry taking care of. As kind as he usually is I found his conduct very selfish on the trip which he can be from time to time. I recall the first time he met all my kids we are at a pizza joint and when the bill came he asked me “Do you have this one?” I was a bit surprised but paid. Thank goodness my kids didn’t notice.

Hello MovingTooFast: You wrote: "I don't get it...my bf is usually thoughtful and has good manners"- reads to me that during the visit he saw himself not as your peer, but as your daughter's peer and was jealous of her, competing with her for your resources (time and money). Is this a possibility? Amie

I’m a widow for almost 12 years and turning 66. Trying to semi retire and thought I finally found someone nice that I didn’t have to worry taking care of. As kind as he usually is I found his conduct very selfish on the trip which he can be from time to time. I recall the first time he met all my kids we are at a pizza joint and when the bill came he asked me “Do you have this one?” I was a bit surprised but paid. Thank goodness my kids didn’t notice.

Yes I think there was some competing. But he shouldn’t have approached it like that.

I agree, he shouldn't have behaved like he did, but he did and so, my answer to your question ("Is my boyfriend bad news?") is.. yes, seems to me like he is bad news. His behavior disgusts me, and I wasn't even there. I imagine that your daughter and son in law will not respect you if you continue your relationship with him, move in, etc. Do you agree?

Honestly - what do you know about Man-friend's finances? Does heor rent an apartment own his home? does he still have a mortgage? Has he taken out home equity loans? Is he behind on his bills? You say he's thoughtful and has good manners - which is important. So is honesty. So is maturity. Acting peevish when your daughter wants your attention: for Heaven's sake, he's not 14, he's a grown man.

He rents an apt in a new building in a very nice area but I’m on the lease too because it was intent that we try to live together part time to see where our relationship goes. I ended up not loving the apt so now my bf wants us to find a house. But given what just transpired in our trip I don’t plan on moving in that direction. He claims he has $7million but he lives rather frugally but fro what he’s told me he travels to nice places and hotels etc.

Hi MovingTooFast/ SoConfused: What he claims is of no consequence, anyone can claim ANYTHING. I can claim right now that I am an Elephant.. or a God, but it doesn't make me either one. Look at who he is, not what he claims to be. Congrats for not planning "on moving in that direction", in ,, his direction, that is! Amie

People who end up with a lot of money don't spend it foolishly, but the behavior you've described is not frugal. It's downright cheap. Someone wh actually HAD seven million dollars can pick up the tab at a pizza joint. Maybe there's something in his past where someone used him for his money, but if that's the case, why tell you he has seven million? Something about this isn't making sense.

When we started talking about maybe getting a home together he wanted to share his net worth and so did I so we had an idea of what we could afford. He pays for our dinners when in town all the time so I don’t understand his behavior in florida other than I know he’s told me when he’s visiting family and he’s paid to go visit them out of the area he doesn’t expect to pay for their meals but instead they should pay for him. He does bring a gift when staying with family.

If I was **in the area** and stying for a week in a motel/hotel, yes, having the 'host' take me out for *one* night would be a reasonable expectation. Staying in a hotel one is paying for a private room. That's the business model. It's my impression you were staying with your daughter and family. That meant some inconvenience and loss of privacy to them. Under those circumstances, it is absolutely reasonable for the two of you to offer to replace groceries and treat your hosts, who saved you a couple hundred dollars that you would have spent on a hotel. [Gracious] guests have obligations, too. It isn't like your man-friend is an axe-murderer. Staying a week, eating their food, and not buying a couple bags of groceries is just, well, unappreciative. It's hard to reconcile his wealth with having him oblivious to ordinary good manners and being so remarkably tight-fisted. Seven MILLION dollars and an unwillingness to replace the food he was eating leaves me with a kind of WTH feeling. I'd be interested to hear what field he worked in to amass such a fortune. Also, since he says this is how his family operates, I'm curious, have you met them?

He’s a lawyer and got lucky when he retired from a big company. He works for the government now so pay is decent and benefits are great.

Have you met his family? are they like this, too?

If he dates you for the wrong reason like looks.

I think he doesn't have the money he says he does. I guess you haven't met his family? In his sixties (?) or so, he may not be close to them. Does he have friends? Have you met *them?* Seven MILLION dollars and - he's not retired? This doesn't make sense. He's BS-ing you.

He certainly is/was, OM. And ditto to being '*only 14'. But, then, lying and creating completely false Healthy Nice Guy/Prince Charming (MATURE ADULT) impressions/personas in order to beat 'their arse sliding or bursting out of their trousers' to the alter, IS what NPDs do. Same for why they get you prematurely involved in joint financing/guarantor-ing (at your eventual expense), which is to make you (by then, Slave) leaving them (Master) harder/slower, all of which they do whilst you're under the effects of Honeymoon Heroin (over-high Dopamine et al, effectively drugged, not compus mentus), *when he/it seems so good and promising that you'd do practically anything for them. MTF, my advice is to RUN if you haven't already. Here's why: Comparing his attitudes and behaviour to the myriad, classic, textbook, malignant Narc symptoms and signs (Red Flags) he's saved up (- which they do) to display during this important visit (asterisked - including any glaringly typical, victim behavioural symptoms)... 1. The biggie: He's *rushed the relationship/intimacy: - hence "MovingTooFast", - `outrageously-prematurely, therefore, *inappropriately, expecting your help and involvement in his finances, as I say, - PLUS *the fact you complied (the Sociopathic hypnotic effect as has you behaving, I can tell, against normally more-sensible type), - unreasonably expecting you (and yours) to foot even his BOG-STANDARD FAIR SHARE of the expenses (gosh, that must have been a short but very intense Love-Bombing phase?), as if you were long-marrieds with 50/50 share of all wealth and assets, - having grown *cocky enough - thinking he can, this soon in, *ADMIT to such *gross childishness and petty-mindedness as resenting your daughter (- plus that fact itself, given *total invalidity of basis), without getting fired on-the-spot (*him testing how far he can push you), - *violating by failing to follow very basic, *social norms and expectations - so too your even obvious boundaries (self-explanatory), which, his whole behaviour on that score, by the sounds, is an overly *abrupt AND chasmic departure from who and how he convinced you he was during Honeymoon period, - hence your having had expectations of a LOT better and more gentlemanly behaviour than that, *expectations that he must have cultivated in you through consistently-demonstrated, higher standards you during Honeymoon/"Love-Bombing", but from which he *too chasmically departed!, hence you 'just don't get it because he was...", - rushing fake intimacy ALSO with your daughter & son-in-law - important virtual strangers - acting like he's already familiar enough with them TO get in a giant huff with her (and her husband, automatically alongside, who's obviously a gentleman thus was too shocked dumb, himself, to "have a quiet word with him"), - and despite crammed (mainly...certainly to this open degree) into one weekend: we have a Pervasive Pattern (bingo). Despite this rushing, and over-entitlement so gross it's actually high rudeness aka obnoxiousness - any intimacy is too obviously, really just *Intensity (which are easily confused when you're the victim in the thick of it). That's 10 ways/tactics/symptoms already. I reckon this guy needs a cash injection, fast, and is in a hurry....strong echoes of Lily31's Auntie's Sociopath, "Von Crap" in Parents Split Up. 2. ALREADY he's creating *drama* by starting a war with his still-new, as-yet-un-bagged partner's clearly-precious daughter - *the sort of childish, egotistical drama you see on trashy, daytime TV soaps, note - *rather than trying to smooth/fix the situation, given he's supposed to be the senior grown-up with all liberty as well as duty to do so. Nope - HE would rather (all together now) *"Pour fat onto the fire (instead of water)". This missing Intimacy became obvious by the fact of your having expected it in the form of, his allegedly positive, loving feelings for you naturally spilling over/extending onto your daughter. Nope. He resents her, without any reasonable, rational cause. HIS cause is, he wants to monopolise your attention, like they do (making his accusation a case of *Projection). Plus, of course, the fact NPD-AsPD too-commonly features comorbidity with Paranoid Personality Disorder ('she's hogging her mum because she doesn't like me - I'll show her!'). This spells Pathological Jealousy and Possessiveness - comes under *Objectification. It's also an attempt to *Isolate you - from your greatest support network and source of happiness, confidence, energy, pride...all the usual joies des vivre. He's NOT, note, doing the 'Standard' Covert's tack of trying to poison your mind against her or vice-versa (Triangulation). He's doing it the Sociopathic way: *trying to make himself 'smell so off' that it's your DAUGHTER & SIL's decision not to spend any more time with him (meaning, automatically, you) if they can help it, or at least not to have him stay at theirs again...all aided by creating a potential difference of agreement and bone of contention between you and the kids. 3. He does KNOW he should have been generous that weekend. After all, he knew to fake it, previously, right? He's started to let you see under his mask at *18 months (18 months to 2 years is characteristic of a Narc Sociopath; 8-9 months tends to be the more sneaky and subtle 'straight' malignant Covert/Vulnerable, albeit that's my own, consistent observation). The Spath has to give it longer, get you more deeply hooked, because he intends to manoeuvre you into supporting his entire life, becoming his Living, as opposed to the Covert's aim of 'stealing/siphoning' your confidence/allure/reputation, etc' (i.e. more just emotional and psychological....basically, just less financially exploitative and manipulative and less 'bull in china shop'). 3. Over-entitled attitude: "What's yours (food/car/petrol/bed & board) is mine, and what's mine (my money and my groceries) is mine". PS: "As kind as he usually is I found his conduct very selfish on the trip which he can be from time to time." Straightened-out, this reads: As kind as he usually is, ...er..except for time-to-time, when he can be selfish - I found his conduct very selfish. = From selfish to *VERY. See what's growing and advancing and what's shrinking and retreating? 4. *Control via Manipulation and *needless Criticism: ruining your meal by complaining repeatedly about the fact you ordered wine and its type/cost... (You're too polite, MTF. I'd have drawled, 'Well, how ELSE do you think you're gonna be getting any tonight? Your mezmirising, gentlemanly charm?' (and then NOT given him any, anyway....'Aww, sorryyyyy, that wine gave me a banging headaaaache...probably because it was cheeeaaap'.) 5. ...which are, apparently, far more important to him than *exposing himself to the three of you as some *deluded, arrogant, over-entitled, Odd'Un who 'just doesn't work right'. (Again - because he can't afford the time...definitely in too much hurry to keep his Isolation attempt (Excisement, more like!) subtle and meted out in the usual drip-drip fashion. His were splosh-sploshes, in rapid succession.) 6. *Denying and Mnimising: (i) the nonchalance with which he executed his atrocious manners, and (ii) said justification (this is how WE do it) attempt. (After offending/upsetting you, the Malignant Narcissist denies and minimises, whereas, the Sociopath denies, minimises, laughs at your pain AND DOES IT AGAIN...just slightly differently enough, but actually, still in the same vein.) 7. Not wanting to spend his money yet perfectly happy to spend someone else's, i.e. *gets rich at other people's expense, by petty SQUIRRELLING, but lots of it (behaivour more commonly associated with your Covert malignant). 8. Superiority, arrogance, self-aggrandisement and thinking he's special, shown in his attitude over the car-parking, for example. What I read brought this to-mind: "Pay the man, Jeeves, and make it snappy". Suddenly you're his servant...minion? Who died and made HIM your keeper? (E.g.: he may as well have said to you in the car-park: 'Pay the man, Jeeves, there's a good fellow' - don't you think?) 9. His behaviour was at times so bad, in terms of against the VERY BASIC, social norms/rules of, not just etiquette, but, CONDUCT, it was shocking - each and every time. And came out-of-the-Blue. This is what malignant Narcs do....a series of shocks. This is the sensation of your Boundary lines/fences being shunted inwards, leaving you with a smaller perimeter and territory therein, i.e. less protection from his giant liberty-taking. The next time he does anything similar, you'll be less shocked...and less...and less....until you automatically become desensitized and then accept or turn a blind eye his (by then) constant malarchy (which usually includes his turning out to be a liability, both practically, thus knock-on financially, and directly financially (scams and schemes behind your back)). 10. *Competing with those they shouldn't, and where you'd think competition didn't exist (unless a bloke secretly wanted to be your daughter or believed you sleep with your daughter?....nah - Pathological Envy and Isolation/gearing-up through wanting himself all to yourself, forever, for-sure.) Competitiveness is the relational platform going with any level of Narcissist, but especially fierce (despite covert) with the Spath that wants to isolate you before picking your pockets and worse. They have to show their arse overtly in front of your friends and family, have to SHOCK them hard, if they want them to sod-off and out pretty instantly. 11. "I know he’s told me when he’s visiting family and he’s paid to go visit them out of the area *he doesn’t expect to pay for their meals but instead they should pay for him." Yes, BECAUSE citing that (although, he could claim anything), as if it's a universal etiquette, when it so bloody isn't - not when your hosts are saving you car hire, it's not (and that's even leaving hotel costs OUT of it!) - suits his typical, now-out-of-the-closet some, miserliness. So that 'explanation', featuring *minimisation* is attempted Gaslighting, for-sure - and doubly when you consider this: OBVIOUSLY it grated on you (hence you're raising it with him), and, surely he wouldn't want to go against your grain to such an extent? So shouldn't that be any normal, healthy bloke's cue for apologising at least for the clashing, dashed expectations, and suggesting a halfway-house plan of how to behave as a guesting couple IN FUTURE? (I mean - couldn't he have at lest warned you? No, because - no shock value.) Nope. Just BS justification. In with which (*so this is Overt-ness being used as a smoke-screen for the simultaneous, more serious Covert-ness), is this subliminal communique: *We live our joint life by MINE and MY family's rules from now on, not yours! (Coercive Control yet again.) FYI, when a man experiences falling in love, he should automatically (if he works right) have the urge to play generous Provider and Protector. That's far too many, common NPD-AsPD behaviours right there. Probably more if I had time to separate more 'threads'. He's a secret despot, is my opinion. You can dodge a bullet if you end it before you're completely hooked. In case you can't achieve this as soon as you'd like nor in the way you'd like - "But given what just transpired in our trip I don’t plan on moving in that direction." - start keeping a diary of all his bad and odd behaviour, including retrospectively from the day you met him. And note this: https://lovefraud.com/10-mistakes-to-avoid-when-leaving-a-sociopath/ "Ending a relationship with a sociopath is not a normal break-up. Sociopaths (people who could be diagnosed with antisocial, narcissistic, borderline, histrionic or psychopathic personality disorders) do not pursue romantic relationships in search of mutual love and companionship. They are looking for someone to use in some way — such as for money, sex, or to siphon off your emotional energy. Therefore, when you end a relationship with a sociopath, you can’t get together, hug, cry and wish each other well, as you might with a normal person. When leaving a sociopath, you need to be strategic. Here are 10 mistakes to avoid:" FYI, I wish your kids HAD noticed! And you do NOT have to feel embarrassed for some other (crippled) human being's bad behaviour and manners. The shame is solely and exclusively theirs. 'We all make mistakes', said the garden tortoise, dis-mounting the boulder'. In fact - NOT EVEN. Because 'your boulder' deliberately disguised himself as a 'tortoise', and for a good while there, too. And PS: "but fro what he’s told me he travels to nice places and hotels etc." Yuh. HE does. As you saw, he has no problem spending on his Royal self. And he can afford it because he dates generous, polite, empathetic women (and probably men) like you. I'm sorry he's turned out to be a damaged one, MTF. :(

PS: may I ask why you didn't continue posting as the Original Poster and instead created a new account and alias?

Sorry - typo/omission: "7. Not wanting to spend his money yet perfectly happy to spend someone else's, i.e. *gets rich at other people's expense, by petty SQUIRRELLING, but lots of it (behaivour more commonly associated with your Covert malignant, were it not for the fact that this ONLY SEEMS subtle and petty because it's him JUST GETTING STARTED NOW, in financially petty-scamming and growing richer off you. PS: He might well have 7m (or if we factor in typical gross exaggeration - 700 Thousand). But that doesn't mean anyone but him would ever see or benefit from a single penny of it. Their savings are for treating themselves (even then - meanly, pettily, given what they can afford), but mainly for eventually being buried in. This they achieve by (if he's an NPD Sociopath) always swinging it so that you (and god knows how many other mutually-ignorant gfs and fans) always, always, ALWAYS - somehow, SOMEHOW - foot the bill. If they pay for a meal it's for no other reason than the fact THEY wanted and were dead-set on having a meal out. Just not on their own (looking sad/lonely instead of The Big I Am). You may as well be a blow-up. By treating YOU as unreasonable if/whenever you try to take them to task over it, the message becomes this: I find your protests unreasonable. How many repetitions do you think a man would need before concluding you're (the) mad (one) and dumping you? This then gets capped-off with the ensuing, seemingly-random act of revenge (doing or failing to do/breaking an important promise), its timing refusing to cease nagging you to accept that Punishment/Warning is exactly what it is, despite you can't prove it due to one of their main tools, called, "Plausible Deniability". This censors future complaint on that entire score ("Walking on Eggshells"). Now you're putting up with it because you're hooked and if he dared rip them out, you'd be near-fatally injured. ...Or so he hoped. Luckily, the ones in this kind of (badly-hidden) desperate hurry (usually someone even nastier on their tail re. unpaid debt) are liable to rush their first-date assessment and profiling of you so end up seriously under-estimating their target aka New Primary Supply. Thank God you don't live with him or he, you. If you're still there - have you told him it's over yet - or created distance under some excuse?

I don’t know why my original account isn’t working so that’s why it showing 2 different ones. I haven’t left him yet since I’m still feeling confused. Again he’s typically kind and thoughtful and pays for us when we go out (but we split the cost of any trip) and I may go to the store and pick us up dinner on occasion. That’s why his conduct in florida is so perplexing. He was generally nice to my kids and family but then there were those episodes of being not gracious and presumptuous and although he paid for the 2 lunches he never paid for any dinner or car expenses or tips. I know he told me he felt he wasn’t wanted but I don’t see it that way. He was included in most activities. He certainly never bothered too hard to get to know my daughter and blames her for not trying. But she felt uncomfortable to some extent and he should have broken the ice since he knew I wanted her to feel more comfortable with him.

The worst part was when we had dinner with my extended family and each couple split the bill so all the men out their credit cards on the table but my bf didn’t so I had to.

I’m reluctant to end the relationship because I don’t think he’s lying when he keeps saying he wants to feel like he has a normal life again and that includes us living together full time rather than only on extended weekends. Can’t this be a legitimate motive? I don’t see him as a liar. Maybe it’s a combo of wanting to be with me and the fact I can pay half?

I’m reluctant to end the relationship because I don’t think he’s lying when he keeps saying he wants to feel like he has a normal life again and that includes us living together full time rather than only on extended weekends. Can’t this be a legitimate motive? I don’t see him as a liar. Maybe it’s a combo of wanting to be with me and the fact I can pay half?

I'm in my sixties. My Mom worked full time once we were in school. My GRANDMOTHER trained as a teacher, intendeding to support herself. Whenher husband died in his early forties, she went to work full time. I'm liberated, (whatever that means.) But if I was someone's house guest for a week, I'd be doing the dishes andpicking up groceries and treating them, and I don't have SEVEN MILLION BUCKS. And that he has that much and is still working is not logical. At that point, YOUR MONEY WORKS FOR YOU. Narcissism, whatever---it's just common courtesy. That's all it is. That's why I asked what it was he did, because I'm puzzled that he accumulated that amount of money whil being TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS to common courtesy, which is important when doing business with humans. Yes, he wants you to move in so you can pay half, because he simply does not have that kind of money. I work for a living, still. I can't afford to retire. It's nice that I like my employer, and my job. BUT if I met someone with SEVEN MILLION dollars who was this cheap, I'd pass. But like i said, I don't think he has that kind of money. I have another life experience to pass along: I'm widowed, too. I contacted, online, a man who seemed like maybe we could get on. We had conversations on the phone. He was retired, but he had a plan to support me if we got together. (Red flag, I know. And he was wayyyyyy older than he admitted) But at least he had a plan, made the offer. Your fellow, like I said, isn't an ax murderer. But he's for DAMN SURE lying about his net worth. Are you in the US? It's tax time! Ask to see his prepared returns. At his level of income, he's not doing them himself. (Heck, *I* don't do mine myself) Of course, you'd let him see yours, as well. He's not going to set the house on fire, he's not going to be one of those folks we see on the news, but honey, he's lying to you. He's cheap and dishonest. That is bad news. If he's was *just* cheap, I guess that's up to you - but I don't think that's the case. I think that's why you haven't asked for verification of his income. You KNOW it's not true.

Just an addendum: I get being lonely. I get it. If paying half (when his net worth is many times your own) is the price you want to pay for companionship - that's totally up to you. But in this situation, a more equitable plan is for each of you to pay according to your income. So for example, if your income is $100,000 a year, and his is $400,000 a year, you pay 20% of the joint expenses, and he pays 80%. Note that you still need to know one another's income to do that. Hoping the math is right. There's a reason I don't work in a bank.

Thank you.

OM & MTF (PS: feel free to call me SM), OM, "...if I was someone's house guest for a week, I'd be doing the dishes andpicking up groceries and treating them, and I don't have SEVEN MILLION BUCKS. And that he has that much and is still working is not logical. At that point, YOUR MONEY WORKS FOR YOU." Yup. It's bloody expensive having guests. I tell you what, though, both of you: *I* wouldn't have lent my car to (hypothetically-speaking) one of my parents' only 18-month-old (haha - double entendre) squeeze - no way, no how! My parent, maybe. But never some largely unknown quantity. TOO RISKY! And I know I'm not alone in that, either, not by any means. So - what greater sign that your daughter were making a BIG effort at welcoming him with open arms does Mr Thickie from Denseville NEED? Whaddaloada round objects, what he said he `felt'! No, he didn't. Narcs understand actions just fine! It's ALL they understand! They pay virtually zero credence to your words.) Trust me, he is just trying to Isolate you - so that he can get you to "get this one/pay the man, Jeeves" more and more frequently (drip-drip-drip) and to ever-increasing amounts. "Narcissism, whatever---it's just common courtesy. That's all it is. That's why I asked what it was he did, because I'm puzzled that he accumulated that amount of money whil being TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS to common courtesy, which is important when doing business with humans." Well, precisely. They don't have any, and show it "behind closed doors" (which can include the victim's nearest & dearest, closest allies). But, no, OM, it's not "just", and that's not "all it is". I've just finished laying-out how his attitudes and behaviours quite plainly align with those of NPD (and will continue doing so, as usual, for the sake of MTF, currently Cognitively-Dissonised ergo as yet undecided, as well as any readers in the same boat). I reiterate: it's rife now. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't leave yourself open to sounding dismissive and undermining of my time and efforts or the idea of NPD, generally. If you'd seen as many (mainly female) lives and old-age security (and/or health and sanity), seriously harmed or permanently razed by these malignant idiots as I have, you'd know that it's no trivial, ignorable issue - especially not when MTF is considering telling him she wants out (known physical danger point, even with those reported to having never previously displayed any aggressiveness whatsoever towards their partner). If what you meant, however, is that his degree of lack of common courtesy would be an instant dealbreaker for you, regardless of any other character deficits, then - absolutely, me too - but I'd prefer better care with semantics in that case, e.g. 'Even leaving aside any Narcissism---', if you please? (Cheers, missus.) "Yes, he wants you to move in so you can pay half, because he simply does not have that kind of money." YUP! CLASSIC Covert tactic ("Narcissistic Financial Abuse"). Myriad tactics...hence, Covert-Spath-Victim-turned-Expert Donna Andersen(sp?) has just brought a new book out, exclusively on this topic, including this 'man's' (so far -) one. "...BUT if I met someone with SEVEN MILLION dollars who was this cheap, I'd pass. But like i said, I don't think he has that kind of money." Hahaha - no way does he! Again, the "I'm a millionaire" line is such an Old Chestnut (particularly with Sociopaths). Plus, he's just finished PROVING, that, (a) either he does (but it won't be nearly that much) but is too hung-up on it to spend it, beyond initially splashing it to impress as perfectly generous, together with using it as a tool to act-out with (meaning, any so-called partner is NOT going to have a fun 'relationship'), or (b) he's short of it, HENCE needs to involve MTF in his financial affairs (said lease, etc.) and is busy "priming" her to think of them as FINANCIALLY a couple ("you get this one"). His rushing over that says, in debt/under pressure. Like you, I think (b). (Especially as I know that Malignants, especially Spaths, don't just use lies to convince. They keep and produce actual Props, including faked documents. Furthermore, by avoiding so many bills like that, it's like he was trying to (squirrel-ingly, note!) RECOUP the cost of those two (pff, big deal) lunches.... ******************** MTF, He paid for: two lunches (one of which he tainted/spoilt for you - and presumably everyone at the table? - by taking issue with you over your wine). You and yours paid for: 'car-hire'; petrol; multiple parking fees + parking attendant tip; food from the cupboards; all dinners out (save for the last, but which doesn't count as generosity/gratitude/social-moral responsibility as it wouldn't have happened had you not reached the end your tether and 'spotlit' him into it). I agree completely with Amie's "Look at what he is, not what he claims to be". ******************** (Back to OM) (sorry for the merging, Ladies - lack of time, still)... ...."I contacted, online, a man who seemed like maybe we could get on. We had conversations on the phone. He was retired, but he had a plan to support me if we got together. (Red flag, I know. And he was wayyyyyy older than he admitted)". Definitely two Red Flags ("Lying/Wildly Exaggerting" and "Future-Faking" - actually, 3: that all-areas "Over-Entitlement", by treating you as if you and he had got engaged already) IF, as I gather, these phonecalls occurred before he'd even MET you, or simply, still far too soon, such as, after only one or a handful of dates? "Your fellow, like I said, isn't an ax murderer." Probably/hopefully not, but, what is it that MTF's said that makes you so certain?" "But he's for DAMN SURE lying about his net worth. Are you in the US? It's tax time! Ask to see his prepared returns." Agree. If he's asking MTF to implicate herself in his finances by becoming co-lessee then she has that perfect right. And I think I'm right in saying that if he had a Bad Credit Rating, any joint "anything to do with money" would at the very least increase his (but lower hers)? Anyway, why would a millionnaire need a co-ANYTHING? If he's that flush that he's TELLING her he is, including the specific amount, why not let her move in for-free? Any rent share would be PEANUTS. I agree that NONE of what he's said on that score adds up with his (typical petty romantic conman) claim! Bet you anything, if MTF asked him that question, he would indeed come out with some BS story about past exes all being Gold-Diggers, leaving him once-bitten-twice-shy (until she's proven herself...however-long that'd conveniently take). That's the usual excuse. "At his level of income, he's not doing them himself. (Heck, *I* don't do mine myself) Of course, you'd let him see yours, as well." Wouldn't a person ensure that were done BEFORE letting them become a joint lessee? If he hadn't already, then, it's probably because it would mean, having to show her his. I don't know, though, because I got the impression MTF and he did compare proof of means or balances (clarify, please, MTF?. "He's not going to set the house on fire, he's not going to be one of those folks we see on the news," Again, what are you basing this confident-sounding certainty on? "but honey, he's lying to you. He's cheap and dishonest. That is bad news." Agree. And let's not forget, behaviourally Obnoxious - as a guest AND a new 'family member'. "If he's was *just* cheap, I guess that's up to you - but I don't think that's the case. I think that's why you haven't asked for verification of his income. You KNOW it's not true." I'd say, MTF suspects, as not all the knowledge as forms whole realisation is being allowed into her consciousness in one hit (too much to cope with). Same as you might have seen with Heisenberg's aftermath, in "Am I In The Wrong Here? Should I Apologise?" What adds to the problem is that they do an highly convincing Good Guy/Gal act - especially at the start, when (and aided by the fact) you're under the influence of "Honeymoon Heroin". ************************************************* MTF, "I’m reluctant to end the relationship because I don’t think he’s lying when he keeps saying he wants to feel like he has a normal life again and that includes us living together full time rather than only on extended weekends. Can’t this be a legitimate motive?" Not after a whole series of bad, haughtily selfish behaviours, including inadequately-masked acts of hostility, like that, towards your precious daughter and son-in-law (and whomever else was there, as indicated) - along with his alleged-situationally-odd request (co-lessees) - and the prior pizza restaurant incident and "some time" selfishness prior to all of this - no. Plus, who says that when he says normal life, means he's normal thus doing it for love, rather than convenience or to get somewhere/gain something unrelated and purely self-serving? We've already seen him "self-serving" - right? The groceries he bought for only himself (- what, couldn't even chuck in a big box of chocs or bottle of wine for everyone?). And it's about what the lack of courtesy centres around and looks like: his getting to successfully avoid spending HIS money (if/when he doesn't want to) proving itself so much more important than allowing you lot to think of him as highly ill-mannered). Money, material possessions, assets - all without having to work to earn...the Narc's first and only love(s). "I don’t see him as a liar. Maybe it’s a combo of wanting to be with me and the fact I can pay half?" I do, but then I've probably witnessed more liars than you've had hot dinners AND seen where ignoring Red Flags just because you're seeing only a small section of one and its the first you've seen it, leads you. You're not confused per se, despite it feels like it to you at the moment. Just relucant to end the relationship...YET. Fair enough, it's not an easy decision after night-on 2 whole years (especially when, usually, it's been so full-on and intense compared to normal). Just because you might agree (partially or wholly) cognitively, or keep pendulum-ing between He's Ok Really and No He's Not doesn't mean the attachment and resultant feelings you've developed (for the Nicer Guy) are going to just suddenly, instantaneously, cease, like turning off a faucet. While still attached and embroiled, it's common for targets think these comparitively small iceberg tips suggest nothing intimidatingly worrying underneath, whereas, I'm able to match tips to what size and shape ACTUALLY lies beneath, not least because I'm not the one who's influenced by my emotional investment and not wishing to walk away from it unless REALLY sure you're doing the right thing. These aren't complicated tips/Red Flags he's started revealing (- of all the occasions in all the world, he had to pick that one, eh? -), they're perfectly bog-standard. Coverts, especially, are famous for financial abuse as both a form of victim-encarceration and power-trip: bribery, creating victim-dependancy/addiction under the veil of regular, generous, provider-style handouts; blackmail, exploitation, extortion...whatever it takes (nothing is sacred). Secretly, underneath the mask of normality/sanity, they have nothing else in life to enjoy or gain satisfaction from. You can Google them yourself. E.g. list of ways Narcissists financially abuse. ************************ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/love-in-the-age-narcissism/202103/can-t-buy-me-love-narcissists-and-financial-abuse "Another way of exercising financial abuse is ***refusing to contribute to shared expenses**** ((- see, MTF?, it's started, look)), repairs, or utilities. The burden of paying the mortgage or rent, coming up with the money to replace a hole in the kitchen floor, or even funding a family vacation will fall to just one partner in a relationship: the non-narcissist. This same narcissist will also most likely have a secret bank account and shame the other partner for their spending habits." ********* "Future Faking is when a person lies or promises ((even by implication of claiming to be a multi-millionnaire)) something about your possible future in order to get what they want in the present. It could be as basic as promising that they will call you later, and then never calling. Or it can be promising to go on a vacation with you, and then never taking any steps to make that happen. Or even promising to marry you, carry you off into the sunset, and living happily ever after, all in order to make you complacent and to control you in the present. In the hands of a skilled manipulator, future faking preys on your dreams and goals in order to fabulate a possible future so that they can string you along in the now. These promises are destined to be broken, and can be seen as a form of overpromising and underdelivering." ************************ He's therefore already over-promised and under-delivered. Claiming to have 7m OBVIOUSLY generates suitably high expectations in you - like not behaving like someone on ruddy Universal Credit but whom got a birthday cheque from their mum with a card that read, 'Buy yourself some nice treats', and took it too literally. If he really didn't want to find himself expected to be the "treater" during an outing with someone(s) ostensibly CONSIDERABLY less wealthy than him, THEN WHY ON EARTH TELL YOU AND/OR (fake?) SHOW YOU HE'S RICH, EVEN CITING/SHOWING THE EXACT AMOUNT? WHY NOT SAY NOTHING (or, if he really had to, just, I'm Comfortable.)? At least until such time as it BECOMES your business. It's a lure. Reckon he's not even 'comfortable' (or if he is, as I say, he'll be stitching a quilt out of it, to be buried in, while he lives off your credit-card). YOU'RE the "millionnaire". They project ALL THE TIME. He thinks YOU'RE the millionnaire...hence wanting you on the lease, and FORCING you into situations where you have to use YOUR money and credit card lest you end up embarrassed and humiliated...just basically highly uncomfortable... in front of your family. That's COERCING you. He's made it your business to know "his bank balance" because, secretly not very well off at all, he wants you to act according to the unconscious human relationship rule, called, RECIPROCATION. Normally, with his true financial status, he couldn't afford you, you see. Sociopaths are actually not that far off bums living and scamming on the street, but they've learned how to put on a convincing veneer - how to talk, dress (from off the back of a lorry), the type of apartment they rent (but never actually pay rent for). These, FYI, are the types that think because credit card companies "can afford it", that means they don't ever have to actually pay off their card balance. Clever (in a stupid, 'perishable goods' way), isn't he? It's always in the actions, though. His case - bum is as bum did. Sponged off you. And your daughter. Then you again.....again, again, again. And the sponging extent, severity (downright chutzpah!) becomes XXXX-fold if it's TRUE that he IS better-off than you. And what kind of man tells you his bank balance less than 2 years in when you're not even cohabiting yet (DON'T!), let alone engaged or married?! That's a "Gotcha". https://psychcentral.com/blog/psychology-self/2019/09/narcissist-future-faking#1 How Narcissists Use Future Faking to Manipulate You - By Darius Cikanavicius on September 16, 2019: "...Essentially, the manipulator will take very little action, if any, towards keeping their promises. Instead, they will keep promising and using other forms of coercive control, passive and active abuse, until you find yourself in such a state that it is easier to go along with whatever the manipulator wants. So future faking is, fundamentally, promising a future that the manipulator has no intention of acting towards, making promises that they wont keep. Instead, they distort reality to get what they want from you now. Examples of Future Faking Example #1 Your new boyfriend or girlfriend has swept you off your feet. You have so much in common. They must be the one! You really want to buy a house within the next year and so do they. You two decide to do it together. You both start looking at houses, talking endlessly of the perfect house, the perfect yard, and the perfect dog. Even babies! As far as you can see, there are no clouds on the horizon and it is smooth sailing ahead. You fall more and more in love. Yet, after six months they have not saved up any money. In fact, you have found out that they are in massive debt but youre not really sure why. They eat out all the time, buy expensive electronics, yet never seem to work. But youre in love with them, and they promise that from now on they will change, start to save money, and you guys will have the house, the yard, and the dogand babies! You decide that maybe this whole thing can wait. Love conquers all after all.... ...How Does Future Faking Work? Narcissists and others who possess manipulative tendencies lie, but it is the nature of the lie to pay attention to here. In this case, future faking speaks to our hearts. Our heartfelt desires, whether about marriage, children, work, happiness, traveling, fun times, anything really, and our heartfelt desires become weaponized in order to control us. Eventually, the depth and the breadth of the lie keep you tethered to the manipulator. When you become wise to their broken promises, they may occasionally take some action to prove that its not as bad as you think. But as soon as you feel comfortable again, it is only more of the same. This appeal to our emotions is so strong that it may truly fracture our concept of reality over time. By the time you have caught on, you may have sunk so much time, emotion, and energy into the relationship that you are unwilling and maybe even unable to disentangle yourself from the future faking spun around you. You simply go along with the manipulator because it is easier at this point. The Consequences of Future Faking This kind of manipulation is extremely harmful. Cognitive dissonance, self-erasure, feelings of helplessness and hopelessness, and of course, the feelings of loss for something that the manipulator never intended you to have all produce long-term, rippling consequences. The manipulator may or may not believe their own lies, but your belief in their future faking appeals to their ego. If you stop believing them or call them out on it, they may lash out at you and force you into complacency. They may try to blame you and make you feel bad so that you would stay where you are. And if you become complacent, they will then know that they can get away with it. They will keep future faking until you dont accept it. What Should You Look out For? Narcissists and other manipulators are good at lying and pretending. Be mindful and critical of anything anyone says that seems too good to be true. Whether its coming from a prospective partner, a colleague, a boss, a family member, or even a friend. If someone habitually and repeatedly talks about the future in order to make you complacent now, ask questions and dont let them distort reality. Observe if they work towards it, ask them to explain their plan, ask for updates, dont accept too many excuses, and see if its going in the right direction. If you see that its likely just lies with no substance behind it, its just future faking and you will never have it, so act accordingly." ********************************** In fact, choosing that weekend of all occasions, to behave like that, is another Old Chestnut...seen it a hundred times, including many of my own exes (into ex-guinneapigs). He got "two for the price of one" there, though ALSO doing the classic, called, "Ruining Special Occasions" (or putting a dampener on). Unenthusiastic 'Ta-daa'. You need to do some surfing, see where you recognise him by the myriad symptoms per life area (money, romance, sex...). The more you learn while Time, that other great healer, passes, the more easily and speedily you'll start to detach and get those hooks removed enough, so that the split won't break your heart and future hopes, and knock you for 6(66). In the meantime, keep this thread active and use it as a diary of events/incidents if you like; you'll find it'll help massively to see everything written down in one place like that (Rap Sheet). And I highly recommend you do not sign a thing nor move in with him (using whatever excuse(s) you can think of to keep him stuck on the spot, merely maintained where he is). At the very LEAST, see it like this: Ok, normally he doesn't have a problem sharing (or contributing more befittingly to) relationship costs. However, what happens, once he learns the true extent of his target-victim's closeness of relationship with her daughter and finds that threatens his aim to keep you to himself, is that he starts using his money, including inappropriate withholding, as his 'expenses equalising' tool as well as under-your-radar punishment method. (After all, had YOU been paying for that meal with wine, instead of him, he wouldn't have had the OPPORTUNITY to start pecking at you at the table. I presume he'd willingly OFFERED to foot that particularly meal, did he? Funny, that... Who treats someone to a meal but then sets about guilting them over it? Answer: Covert Narc, possibly Narc Sociopath.) Don't worry. Just keep reading up and finding similarities (but saying nothing) - or not. If not, then maybe a very serious, formal sit-down talk might put him back on track? Dare to put him to the test in your mind. PS: How HELPFUL of him to have given your daughter the opportunity to get to know him and his number SO much better than before, which, clearly, she did. I expect she likes him even LESS, now, yes? PPS: Re. feeling torn (Google something like, "NPD victim - Cognitive Dissonance" in the meantime). That'll settle in the coming weeks/months as you digest and collate this information and your recent experience. Your mind will then have created a new frame of reference alongside the previously-solitary one for normal, healthy individuals, meaning, iffy behaviour will from now on know exactly where to swiftly go (think Filing Tray and File Binder), and no longer get misplaced into the latter. PPPS: Your daughter and son-in-law will respect you just fine if you tell them what I and OM have told you about what's wrong with him at least, and very wrong with him at most. (Neither are good.) FY yours and their I: some women, after the crucial 18 months point (where you keep or reject), if they go past it, need quite a few run-up attempts before they manage to end the relationship and get clean away, successfully, therefore, permanently. I can already tell that won't be you because, where respect is concerned, it's YOU who's lost too much respect - FOR HIM. You and your mini-me(s) are clearly generous people, which, although a positive - because it's still somewhat an prominant and familiarly-central attribute, usually means, you CANNOT find happiness with your 'negative'. You just need to take your time as you SEEM to proceed (but secretly with caution), meanwhile pretending nothing's wrong...nothing to see here, tum-tee-tum... and deleting your History here if he ever borrows or could have access to your device(s).

Excuse any repetition - it's late and I'm cream-crackered!

Oh, I don't think the old coot was future-faking me, SM. I'm a catch! (Though, admittedly, an acquired taste) I think he did genuinely want to take care of me, and I'm low maintenance. Someone of modest means COULD take care of me. I just had no interest in taking up with a man old enough to be dating my Mom! Now I DID have an educational experience with a later would-be-beau. He- how to put this - he hinted that he was well off and *I* would be taken care of once he passed. But oh! the timing of his hinting was telling. When I was pulling back from the relationship, he was saying his sons were well-off and didn't need anything from him. When thing were going well between us, he'd say, oh, they wouldn't understand if he left me everything. He had a drinking problem. Made it harder to keep the story line straight. Well, harder for *him.*

In other words, he did have a little bit of money, quite comfortable. But I don't like being manipulated. I wasn't going to hook up with an alcoholic [been there done that] He thought he was a great cook, and he wasn't. I am a believer in God and he is an atheist. One evening we were having a deep, getting to know one another conversation, and he said, "You know, you're really smart, for a theist." Who says that to someone he's trying to woo?