Should boyfriend pay?
My boyfriend wants to go Las Vegas and then New York for a 7 night (5 nights LV, 3 nights NY) holiday, but I cannot afford the whole thing - i can pay for the holiday, but the spending money will be hard for me to save up between now and September especially as my overtime has been stopped.
Realistically I can afford to go to just Vegas with the spending money but New York as well would be very tight. He believes if we are going all that way then we should make the most of it and do the 2 cities. I agree in principle, but I explained how hard it would be for me to save up for the spending - the last thing I want to do is go to my dream destination and have to watch my money and worry about budgeting when im there. Our conversation ended with him saying "lets just leave it then, and go another time" although he wouldnt be sure when that would be as we are soon to be looking at buying property (within next 2 years). We were then disturbed by his son and friends coming home so couldnt carry on with the conversation, and we left it.
However, im just feeling very hurt and disappointed as he did not offer to help me out as he can afford to.
My salary is 27k and his 50k, I have quite high rent and council tax to pay, work travel expenses and household bills etc (including still paying a 5k debt off from previous relationship at £100pcm). We do not live together, he has his own house. Recently his dad gave him 20k inheritience from his dad; he also has a few grand in the bank saved from the proceeds of house sale from when he divorced 4 years ago. He can be generous and has taken me away for weekends, spends on nice gifts for birthdays and xmas. However, I feel i am generous and I pay my way most of the time - when we go to pubs and restaurants, I also buy and cook meals, treat his son to things, although somethimes little and inexpensive i still think of him, and give his son holiday spending money if we go away together. I get him nice birthday and xmas presents also, but i have to live within my means so it may not amount to the same as him, and I dont have a credit card.
So, the reason I feel hurt is that if it was the other way round I would help my boyfriend out WITHOUT HESITATION. In fact i would have just paid for it and asked him to save what he can and would offer to help him out with the remainder if he fell short before we went away.
I am very much in love with him, and i know its reciprocated, he is a nice guy - genuine, loving, we were friends first for about 20 years - although only dating for the last 2.5 years. I know that our future is together. But i have found it very hard to tell him how i feel about this, i dont want him to think I EXPECT it and that this is what it will always be like, im worried that I am really letting him down because I cant afford to go - and therefore he cannot go. By saying all what i said above it will become a bit "ive paid for this, you've paid for that" tit for tat argument.
When he was married his wife only worked part time as she had mental health issues. He has said that one of the qualities that attracted him to me was that I could support myself, although i dont own my flat (council) i can pay my rent and bills and budget properly and dont live beyond my means.
Nope, you're not wrong about this. It was his idea, he earns double your salary, he's (I take it) aware of your past debt, etc., etc., and now has 20k+ cash. Anyway, even if you didn't know all that - actions (his having the idea in the first place) speak louder because he wouldn't do that if he couldn't afford it, would he.
You're worried he's mingy, right? But you don't have the evidence yet - not in this case - because the conversation got interrupted, meaning, for all you know it was just him assuming you don't WANT to go and were making excuses, hence his 'let's forget it then'. That was a button-push statement... if I prod this, what squeak will it make. It's easier for a man with too much pride than to reveal his own sense of vulnerability by just asking this: What's wrong, don't you WANT a romantic get-away with me? Why? So you were supposed to respond to his 'forget it, then' with this: Nooo, I want to go, isn't there a way around this? He then gets his reassurance without in the process having had to reveal his own feelings.
Also, I suspect that in with this testing-your-ardour exercise was this: Are you only with me because I'm minted? I just want to check because I'm at the point of No Return, bonding wise, and don't want to get my heartbroken by finding out later down the line that you loved my wallet more than me or wholly.
Basically, it's insecurity behaviour on his part.
Your hurt and disappointment is premature.
"I know that our future is together."
So does he. Just about. Hence the sneaky check.
And I don't think this means what you think it means - "He has said that one of the qualities that attracted him to me was that I could support myself". Going by his past behaviour (before he started panicking about his safety), he just means *IF* you ever had to.
You need to find a way to (again) show him it's him, not the money. At the first opportunity, say, 'I'm really sorry my not being able to afford this trip or to save fast enough for it has scuppered it completely. But, yeah, you're right, let's just wait until I can. It's too important to have to skimp on. And New York and Vegas aren't going to be going anywhere, are they. [smile]'. And then, start either buying him little Just Because gifts or DOING THINGS that you wouldn't do unless you had Together Forever in mind. Don't go over the top (you don't want to train him into being expressively lazy), just sweet and thoughtful gestures to remind him to take into account all your past gestures on that score. Even his fave ice-cream or chocolate bar or four-pack of lager will do. Or you showing little nesting signs by buying fresh flowers to put on his mantlepiece.
It's really not about the money for him, I don't think. He's just using his wealth situation as his tool for testing you out as solid marriage material because he's that much more nervous now about how scarily high up the love mountain he and you have climbed (having only just looked down) that he's FORGETTING the things you've already done as demonstrate you're a genuine person with genuine intentions.
Easily done, though, eh, when you're doing the same (feelings wise, I mean) regarding his past generosity.
Men are twats, basically. And whenever they're not, the women are. LOL
Saying all of that, though - have you been flashing YOUR cash too much (in a bid to keep up with him) and in such a way where you've given him the impression you're actually not as constrained as you at other times say (i.e. mixed signalling)? If so, the easy-peasy thing to do would be to ask him to sit down with you to go over your monthly incoming and outgoing budget to see if or where you could save. I doubt it'll even come to that but at least he'd be getting to SEE your situation with his own eyes thus have to accept that yes you do want to go to the next Love Mountain level with him and are NOT making excuses that don't gel with your otherwise behaviour. That ought to do it. In fact, if things *comparative to him* really ARE that dire, he'll probably do an about-turn in deciding to pay for the entire trip.
In summary: Yes he should pay IF HE IS SURE-SURE-SURE (rather than just sure) THE WOMAN HE'S PAYING FOR IS WORTH THAT ONGOING INVESTMENT AS WILL YIELD FUTURE DIVIDENDS (no divorce).
Couple of ways to see this:
1. He suggested a trip, you said you couldn't afford it. It was left to talk about later. You made this a money issue.
2. He asked you to go away for a long trip. To me, that means he pays and the week since he did the inviting. That is his way of taking care of you and nurturing/treating you to a wonderful vacation.
I would have said, "Darling, thank you for treating me to a wonderful time."
Then I would have brought my own spending money.
(But that's just me)
Thank you SOULMATE and SUSIEDQQQ i had a little chuckle!!
I didnt have a clue about his financial position before we were well into 6 months of our relationship, he was recently given his inheritance too so i am most definately not after his wallet, but for once i have a boyfriend that actually works/has a good job, and can support his son.
He said that it was an attraction for him too that I could support myself, as his 2 previous relationships (after his separation) were with women (1) who still lived with her parents and (2) worked part time and spent more on nail polish and shoes than their relationship. So i feel pretty secure that he's happy with what I bring to the table.
He knows my salary, ive told him my weekly allowance and that i have to stick to it, holidays etc all has to be accounted for from that. I dont complain that i cant afford this and that unless i guess at a time like this when its a real expense! It may be something like a takeaway he wants before my pay day and i may have somthing else (car expense to pay) and i say i cant afford it, he pay and i get the next one... that works.... and i dont ask to lend money (only if ive left a bank card in my coat pocket or something by accident ahhaa!)
I get a £1100 bonus in April from work and this is what i was prepared to spend on Las Vegas...
I think you are spot on though, i need to sit down and actually say to him what you said: 'I'm really sorry my not being able to afford this trip or to save fast enough for it has scuppered it completely...' i do buy him little gifts and surprise him with stuff to which i know he enjoys, I truly want to make him happy.
I have also been putting money into his bank each month to buy shares from the company he works for. In 2 years time (based on todays share price) i will have a few thousand return, so far i have invested £900 so i think that he should be "SURE-SURE-SURE" that i am willing to invest in him. I'm even willing to give up the security of my council flat to move in with him later this year, so i can save my rent money towards buying a house the following year.
I dont know how to convey to him that Im disappointed, i feel to proud to suggest he should be too...
Whoa . . . if you are going to move in with this guy you'd better learn to talk finances with him.
You are NOT his equal financially, so don't try to tit for tat on expenses, etc. Just contribute what you can.
He SHOULD understand and want to take care of you, so money should not be an issue with your relationship.
Do you feel pressured about finances with him? I'm picking up anxiety on your part that you must show him you can pay your way into his life. Where is that coming from?
If, on the other hand, you think he's cheap and would ever make money an issue ("Pay your own way, lady") then get out now. There's nothing more awful than living with a penny-pinching, non-generous miser of a man.
HMM... I'm sensing something a tiny bit 'off' here:
1. If you've been buying shares in his employer company - £900 so far - why on earth have you been putting the money into HIS PERSONAL ACCOUNT rather than paying it directly to the company or a broker?
2. Agree with Susie as well. On all 5 points. The 6th is, if you're going to elect to become stuck in the guest and underdog position by moving in to what's strictly *his* territory (which is what I presume you meant?) rather than he and you buying a house together that you equally pay a mortgage on (one you can afford), damn right you should get every single agreement spelled out over every single potential financial issue you can currently think of or foresee. This is then what guarantees you WON'T get stuck in that unfair dynamic.
Before I make any more comments and observations, however, I need to know what point 1 is all about.
PS: Forgot to say: if you ALREADY knows fairly precisely what your monthly incomings and outgoings are then I'm not keen on this 50/50, takesie-turnsie attitude, either, I have to say. Because that's not 50/50, is it. Sure, he has a mortgage but I doubt it can be THAT much greater than your rent and council tax combined, can it? Plus, now, we have that inheritance. So proportionately, the split is more like 80/20.
My only hope - going by the resentful-sounding way he describes his last 2 exes and what they did-whilst-didn't spend money on - is that his reasoning is, he's only got your word for how much disposable dosh you do/don't have, meaning that's what this test (if it is a test) could in part be all about. Because obviously, if, getting all excited and forgetting to maintain your 'story' thus NOT posing any objection about affording it, he'd have got a sound reading that went: funny how she can normally only afford lump sums of £20-40 and regularly cries 'cash flow problem' yet now, the minute we're talking holiday, seems to have no problem with the thought of spending MORE than £1k in one hit. (I take it he does know about the £1k?)
Me, I'd wait and bide my time to see if in the next few days or weeks he suddenly announces that the lion's share (or indeed, whole share) is on him. It could be that this postponing it sentiment is part of the test - to see if given time to sit with your disappointment, you suddenly 'find the money from somewhere'. Or not. See what I'm saying?
But I still want to know what this paying into his account is all about.
(PS Susie, he meant the HOLIDAY would have to wait until "later", not the conversation.)
Thanks for responses....
So, point 1). I put money into his account, he has money taken from his PAYE each month to buy shares. When i told him the return on investment that the company I work for give, he said their shares were worth 3 times that amount. He pays the maximum he can invest each month and a third of that is what i give him. I have no problem with this, he is trustworthy and honest - i see this by things he does for people, including his ex wife, so this isnt really an issue.
To answer another point, he knows how much I have and what my disposable income is, i have an old car which I maintain - if i had more money i would have a better car, also there are things I would like to buy - like a £50 handbag or pair of shoes, but i simply would not spend that kind of money on things like that - he knows that from when we go shopping. I like to save where I can, for MOTs and car tax, spending money for smaller holidays we do go on and the odd weekend away - that means more. I dont regularly cry cash flow problem at all, and the 1k in one hit comes from my bonus I get every April - and yes he knows about this. As I said (i think, I told him i can afford to pay for the holiday to vegas and spending, but just not to go to NEW YORK as well, because including spending money thats too much.
He's not really the calculating sort, it is what it is, i think he just hasnt thought any more about it after that.
To answer what Susie said, yes sometimes I do feel pressured about finances with him. He booked a weekend away for us during christmas break, and my first thought was... 'christmas is expensive without having to worry about going away too' so i had to cut down in order to afford that, as I couldnt go away with no money in my purse. I bought us dinner and drinks for one of the evenings, and him the rest but this still ate a chunk of cash. He just doesnt think about what I can and cant afford and I definately need to have this conversation with him. The part where I feel i must pay my way comes from my family and how we were bought up, my dad would not ponce off people and everywhere we went, meals, family hols and get togethers (very social family) my dad insisted on paying his way and couldnt stand someone who didnt put their hand in their pocket. I think its not a bad way to be and hence some has rubbed off on me.
Its difficult, i want to show him im not reliant on him at all, so this is why i beg the question in the first place, i struggle to ask for help off him, i dont feel its my right to say that i think he should pay.
I stick to what soulmate says about starting with "sorry i cant afford...." the crux is that i feel im letting him down too. Its his dream to go, and we've talked alot about it last year.... for me its been a dream for so long a little longer wont hurt!
"So, point 1). I put money into his account, he has money taken from his PAYE each month to buy shares. When i told him the return on investment that the company I work for give, he said their shares were worth 3 times that amount. He pays the maximum he can invest each month and a third of that is what i give him. I have no problem with this, he is trustworthy and honest - i see this by things he does for people, including his ex wife, so this isnt really an issue."
You see he's trustworthy?
Are you his wife? Are you his ex-wife? And does he have to long-term keep keeping YOU sweet because you and HE have kids together, meaning, even if you split up you aren't *actually* split up?
Tell you what: you trust him, I'll reserve judgement:
Are you saying the shares are in HIS name and not yours despite a whole third of them in their more matured state technically technically belong to you? And that payment for them is NOT taken out of his personal account wherein you've been depositing these sums of yours, but deducted directly from his monthly salary?
Is this arrangement recorded anywhere, e.g. a solicitor's contract or even in a handwritten, promisery note signed by the two of you with a copy now currently in your possession?
Hello and thanks again for your time in responding.
Thought i'd just say, we dont have kids together, i dont have kids at all. I think that we're going right off track, ive known him years and years, he's genuine. If we split, i would be very upset of course, to the extreme that I really wouldnt worry about the money ive given him - at completion it would only be £1800. Not really an amount worth seeing a solicitor for, 10k would be though hahaha!
Again, thanks for your time.
Oh, dear god. Please concentrate because this is important and, with you having future designs on him, as Susie pointed out it's vital that you know where you might stand, NOW. No, we're not going off track because this whole thread is about TRUST AND EQUALITY. And whether it's well placed or misplaced.
I don't want to burst your bubble. But I'm not, am I. You were the one came on here saying he'd just put a needle in it. So consider this just a sensible health and safety check and befitting response to your concern.
1. I KNOW you yourself don't have kids. I'm talking about ties that bind a couple and make them have to keep pleasing and cooperating with one another or even at the least playing fair, even after they (so-called) break up! In a way, there isn't any such thing as divorce (legal or otherwise) when you have had kids (or are 50/50 property investors) together. Not so when you don't have legitimate ties. Then you can just decide to walk away and never have a thing to do with your ex ever again.
2. You have NOT known him years and years in THAT CONTEXT AND THAT UP-CLOSE AND PERSONAL. Only for 3.5. Living apart the whole time at that. Before then, you and he were just FRIENDS. Men are pigeon-holers. The minute you become a man's lover, you are beginning an entirely new relationship with an entirely new basis, into which both of you bring new rules of thinking, perceiving and operating... and self-protecting.
Too much of the time, women enter a relationship with a male friend thinking that the prior friendship will act as some sort of guaranteed insurance against him ever turning nasty and doing whatever dirty on her. ("Fail".)
3. My point is, you don't have enough trust of that nature, yet, to be going as far as to hand him cash you can ill afford relative to your monthly disposable income in terms of what it might have become worth had he not persuaded you (WHY!?) against your own company's shares where you'd have had total control and means of monitoring. PLEASE don't argue because you would fall off your chair at how many lovers come away from a 30, 40, even 50 year marriage realising the man/woman they thought they knew and trusted must have been a figment of their imagination. "I thought I knew him/her but now realise I was married all that time to an almost total stranger!", they bemoan. Why, is perfectly simple: like diamonds we have FACETS and in a relationship present or orientate only one set of them towards the other party. The point of a relationship wooing and honeymoon phase is to take a damn good walk around the rest of them if and as soon as you can before you hand over your heart.
You've never seen what his dark side is like (everyone has one). If you had, you wouldn't have come on here all surprised at his attitude, would you. You've obviously never seen how hard-hearted and calculating he's capable of becoming if at any point he suddenly sees you as "der enemy" or just superfluous to requirements.
4... although you HAVE, in my estimation, just caught a seemingly recognisable glimpse! And, thanks to your elaborating and expounding on everything, not the first by any means:
This button-pushing test of his can't be solely about whether HE can trust you with his heart, including via the mere symbol called money, because, by having so readily and naively entered into this 100% unprotected financial deal with him in terms even of any legal, even TRACEABLE thus substantiable claim to it - and what with all this new information having come to light regarding how you've behaved in comparison to how he has, given your starkly different financial situations - you have demonstrated you do trust him AND THEN SOME! Either that or you *don't* and this unfair-to-you, paying-your-way habit is more about you not allowing the man to invest properly in you OR that in conflict with you reactively bending over backwards to his having basically warned, 'If you behave remotely like my exes then that proves you are a user too', as reinforces your dad's opinion forever ringing in your ears.
But from HIS point of view given what he knows of your whole situation - if this was part of his road test of you, it's not for seeing if you feature ABS, etc., because that's already established. It's to see what happens when he starts to increasingly thrash your engine above the 5k revs mark. He is PUSHING IT - his LUCK. Because, boy, ISN'T HE lucky to have a gal like you who acts like she is richer than she is or at least as equally well-off as him and doesn't baulk at this 'What's mine is mine and what's yours is partly mine too' attitude (until now)! Little wonder he sees you as future material. What a cushy present and what an even cushier *future* awaits him!
BUT WHAT ABOUT YOURS?
As you said, and have since provided wholly revealing detail over - had it been YOU whom could see your lover was downright poor ***compared to you***, you wouldn't even have ASKED him to go halves with you. On paper, out of context, you'd have asked him only to bring his own spending money. But IN IN-CONTEXT PRACTISE, given the *established* HUGE differences in disposable income, you'd have willingly funded the entire trip and presented the whole proposal accordingly! "Get yer coat, luv, I'm taking you to Vegas and NY!". Whereas - what did HE do? Basically said, pay your own way (above your known financial means) and if you can't, forget about us going altogether. (!!!!!)
Why? When he can well afford it? And you're already behaving like his trusting wife?
Has he been behaving like your husband? Is he on this occasion? Answer: NO. He's treating you like an extra source of income or a leg-up to his accruing even greater wealth.
In the context of his being very well off and you poor, that forget-it comment was him communicating this: 'I don't trust you enough that I'm willing to invest in you to that £ degree because treating you like that might all end up being for nothing.' And he's said as much by mentioning what his exes were like - as if to say, you might be like that, too, for all I know...the inference being, prove you're not. AND YET HE'S HAD ENOUGH EVIDENCE TO SEE YOU ARE *NOT*. For this stage, you've shown you're trustworthy in terms of not remotely a gold-digger and someone who cares about him thus wouldn't ever try to take advantage of him, and in certain instances shown you trust him IMPLICITLY for this premature stage of the new, romantic game.
When someone (this case, you) trusts you to that degree, they're projecting their knowledge about how trustworthy they know themselves to be, making an assumption about you being the same.
Pay your share? Despite he's Daddy Warbucks to your Annie, you've been paying your share AND HIS! Because it's now evident he didn't even have to mostly foot the WOOING bill like most healthy men insist on doing (it's them showing off their status and provider skills and potential).
- Given that he's playing your informal broker, do you even know for a FACT what those shares are already worth and what their value's been all along?
- Why are you talking about them as if they're some Kick-Out Fund sum with a definitive pay-out date and amount? What is he - Mystic Meg?
- Do you know for a fact that this £20k indeed was a family inheritance and not share dividends, a THIRD of which might possibly belong to you?
- Do you even know for a fact that £20 was all it was (have you seen his bank statements)?
- Do you even know for a fact his salary is as low as £50k? And does his behaviour to date, prior to the inheritance, seem to fit that? Cos, BOY does he like a lot of weekends away, etc, etc!
Bear in mind here how SUDDENLY he wants to go to Vegas - CASINO LAND! - and NY - a big spender trip.
- Have you had the means to check on the shares' progress to-date in order to know why they apparently, from what I've gathered, haven't been providing annual dividend payouts or just why you haven't had any, or whether it's because he's been (without consultation) automatically reinvesting these dividends?
I'm asking you to check out for certain where exactly you stand so that you CAN proceed happily, because all I keep hearing is "he SAID....he SAID... he SAID". He can say anything he likes. Doesn't make it true.
Here's what a man who trusted you and knew he could be trusted by you would have done: INSISTED, even if you'd multiply protested, on providing you with some sort of legally-worthy guarantee that your investment was in safe hands now and always... written you a receipt for every such sum you handed over... shown you share documentation regarding its entire progress... put something in your name to prove you were a bona fide capital sum contributor and future beneficiary.... taken the initiative to inform you any time the shares grew or shrank or to report having dabbled with them in any way... and offered to take you away at his expense and NOT let you who comparatively has so little provide HIS son's holiday spending money, etc., etc., etc. You'd be one of those forum visitors who experiences difficulty with that fact due to not being used to being treated like a goddess nor knowing how to accept the situation graciously or deal with it mentally. They're some of the ways in which you EARN someone's trust.
"He has said that one of the qualities that attracted him to me was that I could support myself"
And him and his son, apparently. ...Despite he doesn't even need it.
FINE if you're just girlfriend-boyfriend, but he shows he expects you to constantly behave like you're already his wife, because whenever you do, he doesn't do a thing to stop you yet now is demanding you revert to mere fairly casual girlfriend status.
So now look at his definition of a wife and how she ought be treated by her husband! (No wonder his ex, the keeper of his kid, needs placating.)
I was right in that it's not about the money. Money is just the medium, same as you don't grade a meal by what fork you're using. Even without you answering the above questions it's obvious he has trust issues, plus ALREADY we can plainly see how you get the short end of the stick. That's not an equal relationship. NEVER tolerate an unfairly unequal relationship, least of all cement it in concrete via marriage, kids or co-investments like shares and property. Because trying to change pigeonholes as contain elements and a dynamic that have been allowed to become HABIT is nigh-on impossible. Adjust whatever habits while and if you still can.
Either re-raise this Vegas/NY conversation or wait one more month max. to see if he suddenly about-turns with regards to treating you to this trip. But, yes, given what he can afford, he is definitely tight, IMO. Especially now I know he's even made you bring spending money on all these shorter holidays!
"I would have said, "Darling, thank you for treating me to a wonderful time." Then I would have brought my own spending money."
*I* wouldn't (albeit at that point we didn't know the full situation, did we). I wouldn't any more than I'd invite friends for dinner but tell them to bring starter, dessert and booze at their own expense. If you're inviting someone and it's all your idea, you're making yourself the host. At best, you have the right only to ask nicely and apologetically whether they'd not mind. And that would usually only be dared to be done if I knew they knew I was brassic, in which case I'm mostly only offering to play free venue then sharer of the entertainment cost. But if I were well-off? They would think, What a mean, miserly git! And if I, being well-off, knew they were brassic thus couldn't even afford the petrol over to me, I'd offer to shout that, too. If I refused do all of those things per those situations, especially if they'd ASKED for my help, I wouldn't then expect THEM to apologise for having scuppered the party when that would be down to *me*.
Meanness can express in many, many ways, not just through money.
Sorry, its way too deep and over analysing is an UNDERSTATEMEN... honestly. I cant be bothered to read past point 3.
Yes, I can quite believe you have superhuman powers in that regard, LOL. Still, it's your right not to reply. Only, be warned: there are pirahnas in denial.
As for my right, it's to bear other readers in your position in mind as well as you. So it's all good.
Best of luck.
Thank you though...