How badly have I behaved? Who is right - who is wrong in this fight?
I had a fight with my fiancee last night - and we're fighting again this morning about the same thing. The story is this: I went to see my best-friend for lunch, in order to ask her to be a witness at my wedding. She agreed :-) and then she told me she had some news - she hesitated, then asked if I could guess, and then she told me she was pregnant, but that it was a secret, and that I shouldn't tell anyone. I felt concerned for her, because she has been trying really hard to get pregnant - and I was more concerned because the pregnancy was in the first couple of weeks, so it's a vulnerable time. I promised I would keep quiet, and pray for her, and I kind of forgot about what she said. I didn't want to think about it, until the news was official.
I went home to my fiancee and told her that we I had had a nice lunch with my friend, and told her that she had agreed to be my witness; and I told her about some of the things we had talked about, but I didn't mention the pregnancy.
Later in the day - my best-friend and my fiancee met, and the best-friend immediatley told her about that she was pregnant.
Now my fiancee things I lied to her. She things I deliberately lied, and that I'm horrible, and that I had bad motives.
She made me sleep on the sofa, she gave me back our engagement ring, and she told me she hated me, and that no other women would accept my behaviour.
I have apologised, and tried to explain my behaviour. I have told her that I might have done something wrong by not immediately sharing the news - but I also tried to explain that I had no bad intentions to anyone.
How badly have I behaved?
I don't see what her problem with you is? Did you explain everything to her? If she does this to you other times then think again before getting hitched. I would NEVER make my husband sleep on the couch for something like this.
Agree x 2.
"Now my fiancee things I lied to her. She things I deliberately lied, and that I'm horrible, and that I had bad motives."
No, she doesn't. What pisses HER off is something she can't grasp mentally in order to articulate verbally. It's this (and it's VERY common stuff):
Female close friends feel their position threatened when a new beau comes along and try to posture to the new woman the message that she is not your numero uno but anywhere between numero secundo or mere JOINT no. 1. If not dealt with at the outset, this attempt gets racheted up in line with the man's romance getting more serious. BFF thinks that once you're married, she won't see you for dust.
She may be pregnant but you can bet your arse that her romantic relationship is in some way(s) inadequate and needs supplementing from the outside by another man. YOU. Platonic or sexual is not the point, just the 'another man to depend on' angle.
It may not be that the inadequacy is BFF's partner's fault. It may be that she's a bit of a commitmentphobe who includes a third party in her marriage subconsciously-deliberately so that she couldn't attach 100% even if she felt like it because X% of it is already long-term dedicated IN STONE elsewhere. "Phew, relatively SAFE!" (from fuller commitment).
Here you are, ENGAGED. Here's best female friend, subconsciously manipulating you into showing your fiancee that she (BFF) and you have a secret club that fiancee doesn't belong to, never will, including isn't privy to its conversations, OR that *you* feel closer to female friend than fiancee because - look - there's you guarding the ins and outs of a conversation from fiancee rather than telling her.
Aim, fire, BULLSEYE! You've been played by your best female friend, used as her tool to stick it to the semi-usurper whom very soon will become the full usurper.
You're not being fought over, though, because only one of the women is doing the antagonising whilst the other (fiancee) is merely reacting appropriately to that. I'd be effed off, too. But without access to the BFF, I'd hold you responsible for having been so gullible and obedient with one who SHOULD matter less.
You do NOT keep secrets from your fiancee/wife. And old friends should get with the new programme, which means move befittingly to father back in the queue, and NOT ever tell you to keep a secret if that keeping from means YOUR SOULMATE. Because you and your soulmate are ONE PERSON COMPRISED OF TWO, meaning, secrets are neither logistical nor practicable.
Yes, you did wrong. You "said" your fiancee and her emotional welfare were less precious to you than your BFF's emotional welfare. You didn't MEAN to. But you did.
If fiancee were just your new-ish girlfriend, I'd say she overreacted. But she's about to JOIN LIVES - AND SECRETS!!! - with you...and look what you "said": No, you're not.
"Hello, Interflora?... Yes, I'd like to order the biggest and most beautiful bouquet you have, please."
"Sorry, fiancee [presents bouquet]. I realise what it was I did wrong now and promise you it'll never happen again..Please forgive me?".
If she knows it won't/can't happen again - because in future you'll be on your guard where BFF's wanton side is concerned, because you've learned a valuable lesson in savviness - then what's not to forgive? :-) Self-improvement, even the ABILITY to, is IMPRESSIVE.
PS: Just to avoid confusion: I meant, agree from your surface point of view, DON'T agree from a girlfriends'. DO from a *fiancee's* deeper view.
Diff/all the diff.
Hi SOULMATE, thanks for the reply.
I think you miss a point when you say, "You do NOT keep secrets from your fiancee/wife." SUSIEDQQQ understood better that it was not "my" secret. It was "her" secret. When couples say "we don't have secrets from each other" they are clearly referring to secrets that pertain to each other.
If my fiancee's best-guy-friend was shooting-blanks, and decided to off-load this secret to my fiancee. Then I wouldn't expect her to tell me.
The secrets that shouldn't exist in a couple - are surely those secrets that somehow relate to or affect one of the couple.
Nevertheless I think you have a good point. "BFF" could have said something diplomatic to the fiancee, when she realised that the finacee hadn't been informed. Instead she gave the impression, "I can't believe he didn't tell you!" Or something to that effect.
Anyway - I'm quite a straightforward guy, so I'm not sure I'll always be able to avoid peoples intrigues in the future.
Flowers are a nice idea. Probably SUSIEDQQQ is right and the reaction was extreme - and not really deserving of interflora's biggest and most beautiful bouquet.
Should I get used to the sofa? Is it too cutesy to always expect to wake up next to each other if we've been fighting? This woman can be a real firebrand!
To be honest Bro, if she has you questioning who's right or wrong in this argument you must be questioning the marriage?
I wouldn't be buying her flowers, she's refusing to listen, refusing to see your side of it. Probably because she lacks the ability to articulate how she feels about it. Now... I can tell you from experience, it'll always be like this.
Make your choices & good luck with it :)
Wait... people can change, it's about communication. It'll be a long and rocky road for her to change, her base reaction is to do exactly what she's done, she'll need to realize how badly she dealt with it, accept there are other ways & relearn those skills.
They call it the wheel of change, I don;t know why because it should be a mountainous path with a few deep valleys.
Again, good luck with it
"I think you miss a point when you say, "You do NOT keep secrets from your fiancee/wife." SUSIEDQQQ understood better that it was not "my" secret. It was "her" secret. When couples say "we don't have secrets from each other" they are clearly referring to secrets that pertain to each other."
No, I didn't miss a point. You did. ("No, you!") No, definitely you (;-p). If someone tells you their secret and asks you to keep it, it becomes yours as well. Berbom. You and BFF knew something fiancee didn't, despite you had a choice to treat fiancee like your other half. How you do that is either
[a] by saying to the secret-divulger concerned, 'Well, hang on a minute. I don't think I want to know if what you're asking is that I keep it a secret from my fiance. This is my future wife we're talking about. We don't HAVE secrets because they're not healthy in a marriage',
[b] by telling your significant other half and, if/when the person concerned finds out and if they kick up a fuss about it, turning round and painting THEM the unreasonable one (for not realising that husbands and wives tell each other everything and then expecting them not to).
"If my fiancee's best-guy-friend was shooting-blanks, and decided to off-load this secret to my fiancee. Then I wouldn't expect her to tell me."
Well, you SHOULD. So what can I tell you? That you're obviously marrying someone like me who's hot on relationship health and etiquette as well as mental intimacy to the optimum? Deal with it. Deal with it or find someone with bendier morals.
"The secrets that shouldn't exist in a couple - are surely those secrets that somehow relate to or affect one of the couple."
That's naive when I've just EXPLAINED how it affects her. It wasn't the topic of the conversation, it was the fact that fiancee found out from BFF something which now (thanks to BFF) appeared to be merely your CHOICE not to tell fiancee! I repeat, the message becomes: BFF and I are in an exclusive club and you're not invited. It should be the other way round, mate.
"Nevertheless I think you have a good point. "BFF" could have said something diplomatic to the fiancee, when she realised that the finacee hadn't been informed. Instead she gave the impression, "I can't believe he didn't tell you!" Or something to that effect."
Okay - better (sorry, I didn't read ahead, just typed a response per paragraph). EXACTLY. By saying she couldn't believe you hadn't told her, she's deliberately painting a false and very disturbing picture (for a fiancee to have to clock). And the picture says, "I, BFF, am emotionally FAR more intimate with that man than you are, thus highly likely always will be, despite you're the one about to become his so-called wife". Yet now that I know what her response specifically was, vein-wise, it's even WORSE than I thought because it makes it crystal clear that BFF knew precisely what she was trying to achieve! And what that is geared to achieving is either causing a huge fight or splitting you up!
Best friend? Really? I know which one I'd be chucking. I mean, that is serious Machievellian machinating. Think about it: had it been on the back of some prior string of arguments or faux pas on your part, with you basically on probation, you could be chucked by now!!! Yeah, CHEERS, "best friend" of mine, thanks a LOT!
"Anyway - I'm quite a straightforward guy, so I'm not sure I'll always be able to avoid peoples intrigues in the future."
Oh, yes, you can. It's called play everything straight down the line and always tell the truth to those that deserve nothing less.
"Flowers are a nice idea. Probably SUSIEDQQQ is right and the reaction was extreme - and not really deserving of interflora's biggest and most beautiful bouquet."
Well, it's your funeral (corpse's name, Trust) but, I repeat: had my husband, back when still my fiance, had a friend who did- OH, WAIT - HE DID AND SHE DID! AND HE TOOK RESPONSIBILITY FOR HER BECAUSE SHE WAS HIS FRIEND, NOT MINE, AND IT WAS HIS LACK OF PAST BOUNDARY-DRAWING THAT GAVE HER THE NOTION SHE *COULD* TRY TO INTERFERE WITH HIS RELATIONSHIP LIKE THAT. AND I *DID* GET A BOUQUET. SORRY THAT MY FRIEND IS AN INTERFERING BEEP, IT 'SAID'. AND TODAY WE'RE STILL BLISSFULLY MARRIED. Gosh, could that attitude and where we are today have anything remotely to do with it, hmmmm..now, let me just think for a mo-YES!
"Should I get used to the sofa? Is it too cutesy to always expect to wake up next to each other if we've been fighting? This woman can be a real firebrand!"
Good. Then let her give "best friend" what for like "best friend" ruddy well deserves, the nasty little [CENSORED]. Who needs enemies with friends like that. I repeat: she did it knowingly deliberately!
No, it's not 'cutesy'. It's sensible, realistic, achievable and healthy, and respectful to whatever entity GAVE you such a gift.
[puts soapbox away]
PS: What's BFF's name, by the way. Camilla?
(Eh? Where did you get the name Mary from?)
It can' be no. 1. RONDAR said she gave fiancee the impression of being surprised he hadn't told her. How does THAT gel with having wanted to be the one to break the news to her herself? If that had been the case, she'd have said something like, 'Course you didn't know. I told him not to tell you. And the reason I did that was because *I* wanted to be the one to tell you, seeing as how it's my news'.
And 'Mary' may not think it's no. 2 - straight up, vindictive-intention - like that on RONDAR'S part. 'Mary' may see this as a Red flag called, 'If ever anyone tries to attack our relationship (whether above or below the table), I will be unable to rely on my husband to spot it before or as it happens and side-step it, OR, it not having been prevented/preventable, to in the aftermath put the conniving person back in their stupid box'.
But I agree that 'Mary' needs to appreciate that she and RONDAR were *both* the victims, yes, and also that he should point this out to her.
No - the problem started out as this: a presupposition of bad intentions made by my fiancee about me. Now I'm being asked to presuppose bad intentions on my friend's part in order to accuse, then offload (or split) the blame. Too shameful to contemplate.
SOULMATE made a good case, but it unraveled a bit in the end, when it turned out to be based on her own past problems. I really don't feel comfortable when someone bases their advice on their own personal story.
Having said that - I can see that some of my female friendships aren't really going to last - or at least, they're can't be built on the same sort of intimacy in the future.
The good news is that fiancee and me are happy again, without having to laboriously deconstruct the whole saga. Plus I have found the sofa-bed is very comfy.
It's very, very simple.
1. Your fiancee blamed you for, as she understood it, you wanting to keep something shared - this case, information - exclusively with another woman when, as she sees it, doing so is no longer at all appropriate because you and she are now intended, meaning you and she keep secrets from BFF but you and BFF don't keep secrets from her. She's correct. She's got a WHOLE WORLDFUL of behavioural and relationship psychologists behind her.
2. Fiancee doesn't realise that BFF tricked you in order to, in effect, put fiancee in her place - specifically, to 'say' this: 'You may be about to marry him, but me, I'm closer to him than you'll ever be - witness the proof', and that this she did VIA YOU. So she used you as a cosh to hit fiancee over the head with, basically. That self-centred, selfish attitude and that overblown sense of entitlement do not fit the criteria of Good Friend. (There again, neither does your saying you don't think it's going to last anyway.)
3. You can't face the fact that your so-called BFF is a over-competitive, manipulative little wotsit who'll cross whatever boundary she has access to in order to nurse her ailing sense of importance. So now you're denying that the Sky is Blue by telling me that I-nay, THE EVIDENCE is asking you to "PRE-SUPPOSE".
Don't talk rot. There is no need for any supposition, here. The facts are quite simple. As you in your own words off your own bat have attested to, BFF broke the news to fiancee (OBVIOUSLY also in the same breath making it clear that you already knew) and then gave fiancee the - quote/unquote - impression that she couldn't BELIEVE you hadn't told her what you knew, despite her knowing full well that she had specifically and explicitly TOLD YOU NOT TO TELL! I don't know what 2 plus 2 equals in your book but in mine it's 4.
You also can't face the thought of having to actually apologise to your fiance and thereby, you think, put yourself in the wrong in front of her. Well, you are. Camilla Parker-Bowles Mark II, there, is YOUR friend, meaning YOU over the years have, via repeat behaviour or lack of, 'taught' her what she can and cannot get away with when it comes to you and your affairs. That's your responsibility.
Your friend, your friend's onerous sense of over-entitlement over you and your private business, your responsibility, YOUR APOLOGY. Clear-cut Black & White, no Grey.
4. I didn't "base" my advice on my own past experience, thank-you very much. At the time of typing, I hadn't even recalled it to mind. I brought in that very brief mention in in order to make it easier for you to appreciate how common it is as well as to stress the long-term-outcome importance of you responding the right and manly way (specifically a verbal apology accompanied by an actioned one to verify it). It's called, an illustration. As such, I could equally have used the past experiences of any friends or acquaintances, however, why bother when I, too, have been there. Furthermore, my experience had an exceptionally positive outcome - BECAUSE then boyfriend now husband pulled out all the responsibility-taking and apology stops. So if you're trying to insinuate that your situation somehow knocked me off my solidly objective perch by re-triggering some or other thus-far buried emotional reactions then, nice try but not nice enough, Mr Clucky from Cluckyville who's trying to avoid what I've already pointed out this clear calculation of motivation now leads to IF one wants to do LONG-TERM right by one's fiancee, WHICH IS, taking so-called BFF to task over that no-brainer machination-ette so as to ensure there won't and can't be any FUTURE REPETITION.
You SAYING my case has unravelled at the end doesn't make it so. Only the evidence makes it so. If the evidence supports a conclusion that itself supports a call to action, which it does - unless you're claiming when BFF showed surprise it was because the poor woman has the memory of a goldfish! - then this statement of yours is what unravels.
As I see it, you'd prefer NOT to rightfully pass the blame to BFF for what she and only she caused, in the process even taking it wholly or partly yourself, just as long as that means not having to have words with her (e.g. 'WTF did you think you were playing at?!').
You asked for feedback, you got it - using logic, insight, an appreciation of person- and status-specific attitudes and an indepth understanding of emotional states per se - but you don't like it, again, because of said onus of action for the sake of PREVENTION VIA DETERRENT. So don't take the advice then, SIMPLES! But don't go twisting the truth or trying to discredit sound advice just to give yourself something to hide behind, whether you're doing it behind the scenes as well or just on here to save face - because that's childish.
Also, if you insist on avoiding taking this future insurance type of remedy, don't come crying to ME next time 'the greatest friend in the world who holds your interests equal to her own' (hah!) does something ELSE to put a spanner in your relationship works, be she Camilla or some other new friend who again gets the impression she has you and your life at her self-gratifying fingertips.
You stand warned. And lectured. :-p
From my point of view I see it as this (and this is an advice forum so everybody has equal standing)
You were asked to keep a secret, nothiong wrong with that, the secret should have no impact on your relationship with your fiance, unless she is extremely insecure about your relationship with your mate.
I've asked my mates not tell anyone stuff before, for several reasons, one of which is when people tell their other halves, that can easily spread to the other halves friends (perhaps not on purpose) and then on and on etc. Next thing you know half the town knows. You should eb able to trust friends and feel secure asking them not to blab.
Your mate might have genuinely, assumed without saying, that when she said don't tell anyone, that that didn't include your fiance, and that you would have told her.
You could look for all the subconscious meanings behind what happened, you could then do the same for every little descision you or anyone else ever makes. You could do this for the rest of your life, and be miserable and paranoid, second guessing everything. OR you could accept their is a little competition between your mate and your wife-to-be, simply because they are both females in your life and this will always be there. You're fiance over-reacted, even if she was super pissed, she could ahve acted more maturely and told you that she doesn't feel comfortable with you keeping secrets with another woman, instead she acted like a child over it. You're mate should also be told that you discuss everything with your partner, and should also be held accountable for telling your partner after asking you not to say.