Wife want to go back home
About 8 years ago i was advised by my parents to get married from pakistan. I was and still an living in the UK.
At the time i didn't really understand life, i was 25 and just started working so I agreed.
Since time went on I realised I have made a mistake since My wife missed her famile and we really didnt have much in common.
However if we were to split up my wife and kids would have been devestatded. So we decided to make the most of it. Everything seemed to be going well until her father in pakistan had a kidney translplant. She wanted to go over and I didn't. Since our wedding we have visited the country twice and each time I HATED it more. I find in depressing and unygenic and dangerous.
Eventally my wife decidied to go without me last in August 2014. She took the baby and I kept our other child with me. SHe stayed for 3 and was very depressed because her dad was very poorly. 6 weeks after she returend back he passed away. She wanted to go his funeral and I didn't alllow her since I couldn't get time off and could not bare both my kids being there.
She now want to go and see her mum and visit her dads grave. I really dont want to go because the of sanitation, crime, unstabilty and also I will my dad who I really dont want to see. She tells me thousands of ppl go so doesn't understand why I dont want to go.
Please please give me advice on how best to go fowards.
Are you afraid she will stay? If so let her go and keep the kids with you. If you are not afraid of this let her go with them. That is what civilized people do. Sorry you do not get along. I mean this from my heart but you have solved this and the two of you are going to be together. By the way do your parents visit?
Hey ! Whatever is happening in that country don't let that affect your marriage. Your wife wants to go to see her mother you must let her go, we all are humans and we have emotions you should not stop her. You don't want to meet your father, but she has no such issues, you can go with her, spend time with her family and bring back your family safely.
No she just wants to go for a few weeks. Both my parents are British citizens and my dad is in pakistan for a temporary basis.
Initially I never had any issues for travelling there however since I learnt my brother in law getting Maleria and my wifes uncle getting TB i startin getting afraid.
The last time she went in August most of the country got flooded and the authorities didnt really help.
I agree she has a right to visit her mum so I'll convince myself to go with my wife and kids
Firstly, I would like to state that whatever i write here, is my personal opinion and that the reader may or may not use my advice. I shall not be held responsible for any consequences, if any.
So let me start by saying that i do understand why exactly do you fear sending your family back to Pakistan.
In my opinion, I feel that you should share this concern of yours with the mother of your wife, so as to help you convince her daughter (your wife) to stay back here. Saying that, you can invite her mother to stay here with you so that she doesn't have to go there.
I do not understand why you do not wish to meet your father, but your personal reasons may be enough for you to decide not to go. I appreciate your concern. But i feel that while you may choose to invite your wife's family members to visit you or stay with you, you can also go and visit your family in Britain on the weekend or something like that as may suit you. It may help you in keeping yourself and your wife busy as she may feel alone with you here and nobody to talk to.
Your personal hatred towards the situation in Pakistan may cost you your relations, who may love and care for you beyond limits. i suggest you to firstly talk it over with your wife if you have not done so yet, so as to help her understand why you are asking her not to go to her family. I say so because i have myself faced similar situations where my mother used to be really upset when my father used to ask her not to visit her family just across the state! you have genuine reasons for saying so! So, before your wife starts to think some wrong or negative about your reasoning, I suggest you to talk to her and convince her. Also, talk to her mother or whomsoever she talks to more (back in Pakistan) so that he/she may help you convince her.
The last time we went to pakistan my wanted to stay for 3 weeks but i could only get 2 weeks off from work. I asked my mother in law to explain to my wife that 2 weeks is enough but she didn't agree with me. Also my wife has a disabled brother who wouldn't be able to travel to the uk.
I guess I did not understand that she could not go without her husband, I guess it is the culture.
No that's not the case. She went on her own in August 2014. It's not the culture. I just can allow my kid's to go without me and the baby is too attached to his mum so he has to go if she goes
Since you add that her brother is disabled and that her mother is a bit of non-cooperative types, I feel that you should plan it out like maybe you can all go for a 15 day trip in the summer vacation or winters.. This way, she too will not sulk about you not letting her go.
Since your mother in law is not ready to listen, then convincing your wife about your sincere intentions and fears is the only way this problem can be resolved.
Agree upon the dates of your visit BEFFORE you go. Book the flights, and that's it. I know relatives try to get people to stay longer (had a difficult time leaving Italy with a friend whose relatives wanted to "absorb" him back into his old town. One relative even tried to change the train tickets in secret!)
Visit whom you want, and don't see the others, if you don't want to. If you are concerned about hygiene, then stay at a hotel.
When you get home again - take your wife and all your children on a nice vacation to de-stress. Being with relatives can be very stressful.
Its nearly easter holiday's here in the uk so that's why wife wants to go.
I suppose I'll have to go.
Unfortunately there are no hotels in my wifes home town.
I'm glad you agree its stressful visiting relatives. Unfortunately i wouldn't be able to afford a holiday to distress. I tried to convince her not to Pakistan and instead to visit a nicer place like spain or Italy but she insists she wants to see her mum.
I spoke about poor Hygene and high crime rate but she reckons I'm paranoid. In the end i will have give up.
Aap apni wife ki baat unki ammi se roz skype ya viber se karwa sakte hain. Unhe samjhayen ki baar baar yun Pakistan jaana munkin nahi - cost wise as well as on a personal level.
Aapka jo bhi faisla ho, apni wife ko ye ehsaas na hone den ki wo aapse ya aapke parivaar se alag hain. This is a common issue with women where they begin to feel alienated and that is where the best of relations start to fall apart.
She her mum on a daily basis but insist she wants to see her dads grave. I've said to her you met your father just before he died so let's wait a few years before we go. She Wanted to go in December and then February but i managed to talk her out of it. Now she wants to go in April and I'm getting tired of the arguments.
marriage is very confusing
I was meant to say she skypes her mum on a daily basis
Thanks you all. Any more advice will be appreciated
Trying to persuade a woman not to visit her family after marriage is something that is not easy (at least not in South East Asian Countries like yours and mine).. I fear she has a feeling of alienation while staying here with you. Your continuous pressure may worsen things. You need to divert her mind by taking her out, doing things to make her feel special, like dinning out or going for a picnic with kids and her, or taking her alone to a dinner.. Make her feel special.. Make her feel that you care about her..
I agree that it is tough for a person (especially married women) to stay away from family at a time when a close relation has expired in recent past, but try to know why exactly does she wants so many frequent tours to her father's grave. Maybe she feels so restricted that she gets tempted to go back just to irritate you or to show to you that she can get what she wants even though you stop her for her own good.
I suggest, you discuss it out with her that we can go to your place together but only once a year because we cannot afford trips almost every 4-5 months. Discuss the duration of the trip with her. Negotiate with her to reduce the duration to as less as possible since you feel afraid of the health hazards and the terror activities that go on there..
I think you cannot avoid a n annual trip (if not more) but try knowing if there is any other reason why she wants to go there..
Let me point out that had you not asked her to stay back at the time of her father's funeral, she would not have been so resentful in her approach as she is today. Your denial may have made her believe that you have no respect for her or her side of the family. Since you mention that she always missed her family after marriage adds to this that she finds it difficult to cope up here.
Another try that you can make is that you can try get her to socialize more.. Make her meet some other Pakistani families (or women in particular) so that she can feel better.. Maybe her friends may help her realize what you have failed to do so.. One does feel lonely without people from a different background around in neighborhood..
And yes. A final question that popped up in my mind while i was talking to you about this issue today is that you told about her and about what happened after marriage. You did not mention anything about yourself. Do not get offended, but are you a Pakistani yourself? Since you mentioned you had grown up in Britain.. I would also like to know what religion do you belong to and your wife. In particular, are there any sort of cultural differences between you and your wife or your family and her family? I ask so as to know better about your situation and to try and help you..
Another thing is, that there is a possibility that your mother in law may be cooking up stories to make your wife go back to her.. You know.. like talking like i am depressed.. i have nobody here.. etc etc.. so as to make the other person feel like i should go and stay with her.. she needs me types...
To be fair with her she doesn't want to go more than once in a two year period. Only reason she wants to go now is to visit her mum since she hasn;t seen her after her dads'death. I am of pakistan origin born and bred in the uk. we have the same religion/cast however neither of us is very religious.
She has a sister in the UK and she comes around on a weekly basis. She also has many friends who come round or join her for a coffe. You are totally correct about the mother in law cooking up stories. She is doing exactly that.
My wife wanted to go in Feb by her own and I talked her out of by saying I'll go with you soon. Its nearly easter holidays now so she reckons we should go. I worry about the kids - my concern is the hygene. there is risk of maleria and other diseases. a few ppl out have had TB. Marriage life is tricky!
Although I am of pakistani origin my culture is very differnt to my wife...wish i had known this before we got married.
You seem very unhappy in this marriage. Your wife does too.
Perhaps the REAL issue is not the trip, but rather the marriage.
Is there counseling that you and your wife are willing to attend?
I am. Your correct. I usually just compromise but I dont want me kids going to place with I percieve as being not safe. Things got worse after I didnt allow my wife to go to her dads funeral. she doesn't understand my reasons/logic and I dont understand hers. I said to her in the weekend we should talk about our difference and concerns and she said i'm not at level where I can understand her. I kept asking for a discussion but she refuses. She will not consider counselling even if it was available.
Ref your message at 2:33. Can you ensure you always stick to English, please. There may be other people in this gentleman's boat who could benefit from this thread but whom don't speak Hausa, meaning potentially you could be depriving them of vitally helpful data.
I doubt if you have any issues with your married life as you did not mention any other issue apart from this going back to Pakistan. I believe compatibility issues can be resolved if both parties are ready to take a step together. Do take an opinion about what your wife thinks from her friends. Maybe you can email them or text them or anything. Tell them that your wife has been disturbed from a long time and that you want to resolve this issue as soon as possible. This way, even if her friends tell your wife that you contacted them, (which i suppose they may), then your wife will have less problems with you contacted them, although sometimes, females may get defensive by saying that why did you involve others in our personal matter. But i think its required that you take help of anyone and everyone who may be helpful in resolving this issue.
I suggest you send your kids over to your wife's sister when you go back to Pakistan. The kids are more prone to diseases than grown ups. Also, you will reduce your worries when you go there.
You may go for a counselling session so as to help your wife understand your sincere intentions and that you have no issues with her side of the family. But i fear the outcome may come out where you will have to take a compromised stand.
Thanks for the advice
Please can someone give me one sentence answer as to whether I should put my fears axienty aside and go to pakistan or tell me wife no way we are going
Send her to Pakistan and stay home yourself as a compromise.
My Dad hated the family of my mother in NY so he told her he would buy any house in DC and she could see her parents but he would not live in NY. It worked out well. They hated him and he them till he and they died. Mom and Dad got on well.
Thank you. I believe I will have to go against my wishes and give in.
TRUENORTH..PLEASE NO ADVERTS
Okay..so I decided to go and the wife said we should go for three weeks so I agreed.I told her the tickets are done and that I had arranged leave.
Then she tells me in a very polite way that it would not be fair for our six year old to skip swimming and karate classes so instead I should stay in the UK and she would go with the baby. I was speecless. still am. Then she said no point buying UHT milk for the baby because last time she went she fed him buffalow milk even though our doctor had advised against and dairy products from pakistan.
I'm really confused and dont know what to do!!!
Brace yourself because you're about to get a well-deserved lecture with zero pussy-footing since it clearly doesn't get through to you...
Susiedqq was right. What to do was on the table YEARS ago.
"Since time went on I realised I have made a mistake since My wife missed her famile and we really didnt have much in common.
However if we were to split up my wife and kids would have been devestatded. So we decided to make the most of it. Everything seemed to be going well until"
When something deadly real happens, like when a parent dies, you take stock of your life and everything in it and are no longer as prepared to go on tolerating wrong choices made yourself or forced onto you. YOU get real, in other words. If you can't leave physically, you leave emotionally. First.
"I find in depressing and unygenic and dangerous."
Oh, do you. Boo-hoo, poor you. HER DAD HAD DIED!!! Try that one on for size and THEN tell me about potential germs and the like!
Some things are FAR more important than mere personal dislikes, discomforts and small risks (ever heard of innoculation?). It's called you sacrificing your own needs - ones that are pretty petty compared to that 'grand scheme-er' - in order to do WHAT IS RIGHT on behalf of those who depend on you and your staunch support. I'm not surprised she went without you. How HURT she must have felt that her supposed Numero Uno supporter in this world cared more about his neuroses than her mind-f**king, life-altering trauma! Kick the love out of her, why don't you! Are you even listening to yourself?
And I don't even care if your true agenda was sacrificing your usual sense of kindness and pity in your bid to prevent her from sampling a different life, that doesn't feature you in it, in case she preferred it and left you, hence having insisted you keep two of the kids as insurance collaterol. There is no excuse for what you did and then again tried to do. NONE!
'Couldn't get time off'. Who are you trying to kid? What kind of employer doesn't give an employee a couple of week's Sympathy Leave under that magnitude of life crisis and extenuating circumstance? And, 'Don't like this/that relative'...again, who are you trying to kid? A man who loved his woman even just as a staunch friend or teammate rather than saw her as his possession would face up to spending weeks *with Beelzebub himself* if he knew it was vital - VITAL - to said special person's present and future emotional welfare and, by direct extension, THAT OF HIS KIDS! Or certainly someone who was capable of seeing beyond the end of his own nose.
And culture-schmulture, what's all that nonsense about? HER DADDY DIED! Say it in any language under any cultural so-called influence, it still amounts to the same thing - HER ONE AND ONLY DADDY DIED!!!..which means her mummy NEEDS her and SHE needs her mummy AND to say goodbye to her daddy (finally!). Culture, my a*se. What are you - a monster? Because lately you're doing a damn fine impression in my opinion.
You could have kept hold of your wife's attachment to you and even build massively on it to where romance kicked in and incompatibilities didn't matter had you only chosen to preserve, protect and strengthen it via TENDER LOVING CARE & CONCERN (even out of mere respect and loyalty if not true romantic love) instead of effectively trying lazily to keep her by caging and depriving her her birthrights. Now you are reaping what you sowed (crap sowing = crap crop yield). Because now she doesn't even *want or need* your support, hence is determined to go alone in spite of your having finally (too little, too late) relented.
She doesn't feel like mere chattel NOW, though, does she. Oh, no. Suddenly you can see she's the most important person in your world!
Look at you: going to the extent of starting a thread on a forum and wringing your hands in abject anxiety for a woman you're allegedly not that fussed about. Yeah, right, pull the other one, it's got bells on it.
Either come clean and courageously admit to her that you're scared that her going again without you will take her that bit closer to eventually leaving you because YOU would be devastated if you lost her, or continue this failure of a vulnerability-over-protective so-called measure and take its consequences.
FORGET wining and dining. FORGET getting her to socialise more. Those things mean NOTHING if your man can't do the one fundamental of being there for you at crunch time like a husband is supposed to, is *humanistically duty-bound* to in any damn culture. It's called, being her rock. And you wouldn't even HAVE to worry about things like Buffalo milk if you were there with her to talk sense into her. Plus she wouldn't try to *torture* you with the idea of Buffalo milk if she wasn't brimming with hurt and resentment over the fact she's convinced her husband doesn't give two hoots about her! SO TELL HER so that she fully appreciates that you DO love her thus decides she WANTS you to go with her ***because now there IS a point after all***. Berbom. Not rocket science. Just vulnerability-avoiding, -hiding, -disguising EXCUSES that don't work anyway and never did nor ever will.
Lecture over. And if that doesn't get through to you, nothing will.
SOULMATE.. I dont think you understand what I have said. Firstly She went a few weekds before her father died and I supported her by taking time off from work and keping our eldest child with me whirl she took the baby. Secondly I am not afraid for my own safty but instead for the kids. Third this is that when her father died 3/4 weekds after she returned I couldn't get leave to go to pakistan since I am the only person with the skill set at work and Since I had already taken leave I really could not get anymore. Also going for a week was not a option.
Eventally I agreed to go with her and the kids and then now she is talking me out of it. Also do not we have beed to paksitan together twice before and each time i went the sanitation situation seems worse not to mention the sitaution on the roads and general security. But i accept I a may be a little paranoid but not completly. Also I have now booked the tickets and she talking me out of it for now valid reason.
Please dont say I'm not that fussed about her. If I was not fussed I would not have seeked adviced and evantally I took the advice and booked the tickets.
I work hard for my family. I borrow money to keep the family going without even telling the wife so that she doesn't get upsat. Surely this indicated some degree of care. we have to Sweden to visit my borther in law and went against my wishes and stayed in his house ratehr than a hotel surely that shows compromise.
But thank you for you time.
"She wanted to go his funeral and I didn't alllow her since I couldn't get time off and could not bare [sic] both my kids being there."
I see. So what you're saying is, that sentance should have read, "She wanted to go to his funeral so I said, 'Of COURSE, darling! Need you even ASK?!'", because that's what you meant.
I *didn't* say you weren't fussed about her. I said the opposite. Don't skim and then knee-jerk, take the time to read properly.
Oh, and by the way: your wife of all people should know exactly what HERS AND YOUR financial situation is. She's not your child, she's your LIFE PARTNER.
So let's recap: you DO care but you have strange ideas about what a real man should look and sound like.
Funny how swimming (blah-blah) etc. was no barrier in her mind all the times before, eh.
Just cut the cr*p and get real, okay? While you still can.
I borrowed the money to finance her visit in August. So i could not really tell her that I'm in debt because you went to visit your dad. Het dad's death wasn't sudden. He was very poorly since his kidney transplant and it was a blessing that he was alive in August. When she arrived in August he was home but after two days got admitted into icu. She couldn't visit him because most of the country flooded. When she returned she knew he was poorly. I have recently brought our house and was in debt. I received the call about his death while at work and my manager said we are already behind schedule but if go Pakistan we fall more behind. That was a polite way of saying don't go. So if i went and lost my job i would've lost the house. Maybe i was wrong. Maybe i wasn't. Her brother suffered from malaria and acute hep a and jaundice so I'm not completely paranoid.
I agree you hide things from a child. And i feel like I'm take most of the responsibility. I have booked her tickets but when she returns after 3 weeks i will kindly explain im not happy and this isn't working out. So I'll quite happily move out and continue paying towards the house. I'll try and find a more compatible partner who is born and bred in the uk and thinks like me. I'll let her plan her own future. This way I won't be stopping her and she won't be stressing me.
"I'll try and find a more compatible partner who is born and bred in the uk and thinks like me."
Do you have someone in mind?
I ask only because I can't believe you would throw a marriage away, and disrupt the children ALL BECAUSE OF A FAMILY TRIP. Are you being distracted by someone else?
You say she has relatives near by. Do they go back home? How do they handle the sanitation issue?
No i honestly don't have anyone. Its not just the trip. It's the fact that she like you says i should have let her go when her father died. Also because she doesn't want me to come with her. I said the kids hate it there let's all go italy or Spain .but she says no. Also i don't see her as a parter but rather as someone who i need to manage and please. Which isn't fair on her or me. Her sister went to her fathers funeral but she lives in a 3 bed flat/apartment with 8 others ppl. So they dont much of a life or much of a financial responsibility . I do my best and put my kids first. I came from a poor back ground but managed to move up the social ladder and my kids enjoy a nice western life
To be fair I was seeking two answers. 1 was I was wrong in stoping her from going. 2. Should she go now. I have got the answers and although don't agree with them but accept them as the "Right thing to do". So clearly I was wrong and still can't understand her logic so it's best to part ways. I'll let her go with the baby and I'll keep our kid here. Once she returns I'll let her know I'm moving out but will continue paying towards the house.
Thank you all
Righto. So you DO care about her...- so much so, you've decided to hop-skip-jump DIVORCE her! Got it. (Still not listening to yourself, then.)
Pull the defeatist plug, why don't you! Do you *always* roll over so easily? Anyone would think she were alcoholic and abusive or something, the way you talk!
So let's (again) get real so that you know what your *true* motivations are, rather than continuing merrily on your blinkered way. Because I don't care WHAT you do if it would actually benefit everyone concerned in the long run (although, WOULD IT IN THIS CASE or would it just earn you a whole heap of bad, bad karma?). What I do care about, though, is someone not being honest with themselves (especially as lurkers in the same or similar boat might be reading).
1. I'm not surprised Susiedqqq is wondering if you have someone already in mind; it occurred to me, too, not least because of your first few opening paragraphs. I mean, do you really suppose you can kid everyone here that it takes as long as the duration of your marriage this far before a man realises he has too little in common with his wife for marriage to flourish, as if that's the reason why it hasn't been? This is nothing but a desperate scrabble for self-justification towards premature QUITTING. Plus, that he so obviously felt so put-upon and resentful whenever his foreigner wife understandably wanted (but needed his permission) to keep proper contact with her family and country of origin, would have been another huge wake-up call for him in that respect. So, KNOWING you didn't love her *romantically*, according to you, what a shame you so irresponsibly went ahead and had kids anyway rather than saw fit to mount your rebellion against your parents (and their continued attempt to impress their control via culture onto you despite your obvious act of rejection via emigration on that score) *back at the time when it was appropriate and didn't involve other people, including innocents*.
I can therefore understand perfectly why your wife's need for contact with them is on the increase; so would anyone's in that situation. It's called, I feel so alone and alienated. You do know this, or at least sense it keenly, *despite* your excuses about wanting to keep some of the kids in the UK for health, etc., reasons.
I *can't*, however, respect why requests for such basic rights (of visitation) - rights you would from the start have been all too capable of FORESEEING due to said fact of her origin - would get described by implication as if they were part and parcel of frequent, unreasonable demanding-ness (ref your statement 'someone you need to manage and please'
. But then, saying that, I've been around the block enough times to see that, other than visitation rights, this woman is as bad as you. You're overtly controlling, (ergo) she's passive in her aggressive resistance and revenge. And, whilst I'm at it - the pair of you could make excuses for England!
2. WHEN, for example, a wife so badly wants to attend her father's funeral, it is not "logic". 'He's dead anyway, he won't even know you're not there': *that* is logic. So it's not her logic you don't understand, nor her yours, is it. It's FEELINGS. You're obviously either not very empathetic or not very empathetic towards her (resentment build-up + lack of closeness) or you sacrifice empathy for other agendas (like fearing she'll take all 3 kids and then announce she's not coming back PLUS hating getting going back to a place where you're shoved back into feeling like that same kid again whom you've done all you can to disassociate yourself from).
Proof: Note the order of priority [my caps]: " I find it DEPRESSING and unhygenic and dangerous."
That's not how to make someone stay. You make them stay by being constantly fair, kind and reasonable towards them....IF that doesn't feel too much like admitting defeat against your dad. So you're your own worst enemy as far as I'm concerned, this all having been a negatively self-fulfilling prophesy. If you were *going* to say, 'Yes dad, no dad, three bags full, dad' then you should have done what came of it PROPERLY and made the BEST of it, not taken your resentment out on this woman as had her turning round and joining in with this constant, back-and-forth battle of wills.
So you stuff up, starting off a whole chain of negative interactions, and then when it all gets too much for you, just quit. Employer says, 'Neeeaaah, myyyyeaaah...' and you roll over. Wife says, 'The kids will never amount to anything unless they attend each and every swimming and karate lesson' [rolls on floor laughing], and you roll over.
3. ABOUT your employer. No business or its senior representatives in this day and age would dare refuse sympathetic leave of that nature unless it knew nothing of employment law (unlikely). More like, the way you asked your manager (mangler) communicated clearly to him that if he tried on a refusal, you'd be fairly relieved, actually.. because then you could pin the blame on him later to wifey for your not being able to go. Had you presented your request PROPERLY, more likely your employer would have presented no objection but informed you you had to take annual leave. But legally, in this country that (cough!) you're so familiar with, there are NO LIMITS on how much time you can take off in such an easily verifiable situation as that. In addition, you explain to your mortgage provider in order to get them to temporarily freeze the repayments or at least the monthly interest (because they have a commercial reputation to think about, specifically, bad media coverage = loss of future customers). Plus, you've just stated you've bought the ticket which makes a mockery of that prior excuse anyway. So GOTCHA! Nice try, not nice enough.
4. If you can't understand her 'logic', it is NOT best to part ways, NOR to think of using the idea of divorce as a way to make her get back in the boat with you. Not when you have kids (whoopsie-daisy). *You* can go to counselling, and explain to him/her that you need help (using a relationship coaching approach) in putting positivity back into your interactional loop until love and respect AND UNDERSTANDING HER 'LOGIC' blossom, before it's too late, so that they won't conclude that your wife's refusal to attend automatically means she has engineered a master-servant status quo she doesn't want undone and they should therefore counsel you in how to end the relationship. You can if you at least love your kids, anyway. Do you?
The upshot is: You knew what you were getting into, even at age 25 (books, magazines, films, other teenagers' parents' relationships, etc., and innate expectations). And if you just didn't think about the ramifications - tough t*ttie, too late, bed and lie on it. You'd made the familial break physically but not mentally/emotionally. So you did as dad said...and 'got dad back' by refusing to engage fully enough in the relationship, emotionally. *This* is why the result today. But it's reversible/salvagable. P*ss-easily, actually...when you know how. But you *don't* know, do you. Don't have a clue. Can't relate to that amount of affection for ones parents, either. So it's, Sod the kids, I'm either out of here or, in the first instance, willing to see whether wife jumps to attention and does the work for two on her own if I start making moves to divorce.
No, mate. *You* jump to attention! You're the boss? Well, the 'boss' of a company sets the entire tone and culture (he acts - the 'minions' respond similarly). You can't have it both ways. You can't lazily replicate one or both of your parents' cold and chauvenistic attitudes with such self-assurance when it comes to (warpedly) wielding power on the one hand but then claim ineptitude the minute the other hand as a result calls for actual WORK (this case, mental).
*Insist* you're going with her on the grounds that you REGRET the unintentionally unsympathetic way you've been treating her and want to now show proper, befitting allegiance to your most important person in the world, i.e. you're really sorry, you didn't realise the damage you were doing because of your own issues, and want to convert this to a HAPPY union, "not least for the sake of our precious kids", if she would be so kind as to give you that chance. After all, you don't have romantic feelings in with your love for your KIDS, either, do you, but does that stop them being crucial to you anyway?
You have a ticket. You evidently HAVE managed to get permission from your employer. And she can't stop you from sitting on that plane (plus, I'd like to see her explain to the kids why daddy is sat separately on the plane and why he can't get in the taxi with them, etc. - i.e., IT WON'T HAPPEN). So force your accompaniment on her until in the end, even in spite of herself, she LIKES IT. *That* simple, *that* easy! And, unless they're aiming to become swimming or karate instructors, I'm sure the kids future careers won't suffer any from the lack of 2 or 3 extra-curricular classes [rolls eyes].
You want her to think like you, to start cutting her own umbilical cord, etc? Make her like you enough to aspire to BE you. Don't control her, IMPRESS HER!
You want to be an Englishman? Then don't choose to quit that easily and so-called helplessly. Englishmen typically are tougher and more stubborn than that!
Again, can't have it both ways. CHOOSE. But choose the right and manly thing, not the wrong, limp-lettuce-leaf-ed thing of controlling those things that aren't yours to control yet mewling helplessly over those that are. *That's* how to put your father in his place! That's the clever, self-preservationist way.
*If* after having made the effort you should have been making from the start, the marriage STILL feels like a total mismatch, *then* you admit defeat and divorce.
SOULMATE..To start with I would like to thank you for your time. I give you credit for trying to assist others. You have given advice on my other threads too.
Please do read all my text...i have never written so much for a long time!!
To start with I can not control the way I was brough up. My dad had a serious addiction and mum was falling apart. I have no idea of what the world was. My childhood was spent in a council flat on rough estate. We never had any guests or any family holidays. When I made to uni I had just one mission and that was to do as well as I could. So I had to time to really understand society or question "my" culture. After graduating I was told its in my best interest to get married asap and to someone from pakistn. So I did. when my wife first arrived here I was deeply in love and understood my parents reasons for making me find a wife from "their" back home was really becuase they needed a maid. I manned up and told them both she is not a maid and will not listen to any of your demands. even my wife was suprised because as she saw it was her duty to repect them. Since I was the only person working in the house niether of my parents could actually go against my wishes. This shows I did and do care and respect her as a wife and understand that she has feelings. initially when she first arrived I was the one making the decisions since she sisnt really understand the uk. Over time she started making the decisions about our day to day lives.
one year after our first child was born, in 2010 I said to my wife lets go pakistan because I know your missing your parents and they are missing you too. My mum was kinda upset telling me not to go but I told her straight its my life and my Mrs has a right. So we went. I mainly stayed with her dad while she spent time with her mum. I got to know her dad and I cried when he told me he was siffering from kidney early stage kidney failure. He told me look after his daughter and said I'm a great man. when we retuened back to the uk my wife was constantly upset and depressed. I could not understand why. Every day I would ask her why but wold shrug it off. after nine months of asking she told me she wasn't comfatable with me while she was in pakistan. I was shocked and hurt. I asked her why and she said because she could not socialise with her cousins. I told her but that all that you was doing while I was your dad. Then she said that she wasn't comfatable talking with her male cousins with me around becasue i would not like it.
I apologies and said we will go again and I'll stay in my dad's house in pakistan while you stay with your family. So she said lets wait until my sister wedding. so went again in 2012. Her dad collected from the airport and dropped me at my dads houese and she went on to her family home.
I went to bed that day very happy..I was tired of working and was going planning on sleeping for a long time. In the middle of the night I could her someone banging on the door. I got scared and was confused and frightened. Her dad had come to collect me and said your son is crying for you and not sleeping so you better come to my house.
I said to my wife I will object to anything because this trip is costing us over 3K I want to go back happy without any headached to do as you please but on the wedding day I wont like if you dance with the groom. This is a pakistani custom. She agreed and said she totally understands and she would not have liked it i has danced with any of the girls/ladies there.
Weddings over there last many days and both parties have their own functions befire the actaul weddign day. on the day of the grooms party my son was very clingly to his mum and did want her to go. her could not go with her because they party was in a marquee and there were mosquitos other insects around. My wife told me to stay behind with him and she went.
A fews days later I saw pictures of her dancing with the groom. I was speechless. I went bed and her mum followed me and had a go at me. I stayed calm and said look its our marriage and we agreed we both would want either of us dancing with the opposite sex. My wife asked me why I upset I didn't answer and just went to sleep. Deep inside I was heart broken because she broke me trust. If she had said she will dance with the groom and that she doesn't mind if I dance with ladies it would not be so bad. But she promised she wont and still did.
Please tell me honestly if you think I'm wrong?
We returned back to the UK and agreed to forget about the incident. She wanted another child but I said its too early we should wait a little but she said it the right time..So you can see who is pulling the shots. She got pregnant and we were both over the moon. By this time my dad had moved out to pakistan and my mum was helping my sister in her home. We recieved a call from the hosital that our baby has a high risk of having a disability. We had to options, go for a second test which had a rick of miscariage or continue without the test. I wanted the second test but the wife said even if the baby/fetus is diagnosed with a condition she wants to keep so no point in the second test. I agreed we suppoted each other. after seven months of anxiouly waiting we got out baby..he was healthy..again I stood by her descion.
Since I had two kids now I really wanted to buy house. In Jan 2014 her dad was told he has end stage kidney failure. He insisted he did not want a transplant since he had many other illnessess and had been sick for a long time. However his wife and son insisted he has one. Since they could not afford to buy a kidney...Organ donations do not exist in pakistan) they took the kidney from the his older son who suffers from a mental disabilty. The told him dont worry it'll grow back.
So he had the transplant in Jan/Feb 2014 and I came back from work one and the wife had her suitcases packed and said I'm going pakistan. I was confused. She said her dad was in a hospital far away from home and that her mum had asked her to drop everything and come incases he dies. I asked where she will be staying and she said they will rent and apartment. In case you dont know paksistan isn't like Eurpose. People form the west are a prime target in the cites for kinaping and ranson demand. She explained that her mum and brother will be staying at the hospital and she will be in the rented apartment all by herself and will not even be able to visit her dad because he was in a isolation unit. I told her you should not make such decision by yourself and should discuss i with me. Also its too risky you living in a apartment on pakistan where you can not travel freely. No public transport. So i talked her out of it and said you dad will pull though and go when he returns home.
So in April 2014 I finally had the opportuntiy to buy our house. I spent all our savings but at least had a roof on our heads. Then her dad retuned home and was making a good recovery. She said I want to go now. I literally had no money and was stressed with the work and the house. I asked her to wait a few weeks and she said no. So went on planning and I had a car accident during this time. Not serious but increased my stress levels. I came home from the hospitla in a neck cast and was told her I have been told to rest for 2 weeks. She said I'm going pakistan and she off to get the visa and arrange the tickets. During her visit to the visa office she was told it'll take a week so she decided to postpone her plans and said her decision based on my accident and not the wait for the visa. So again I offered to go with her In late september and said it'll be good holiday for me too.
Some time in july her dads health got worse. His body was rejecting the kidney. She said she wants to go asap and with out me. So I said its too hot and dangerous but its your decision. She said if her dad dies before she met him she will never forgive herself. So I kept the older kid and she took the baby and went. She told me she repects my views on the dangers in pakistan so will just stay at home so I relaxed a bit. August is monsoon season in pakstan. A qucik google search will tell you that.
Two days after she arrived her dad got worse and had to ruched to a hosital 400 miles aways. She as home alone. I was literally shitting my self. I told her either go and stay with you uncles or I can ask my dad to come and stay with you. she agreed to go to her uncles who just next door to where she was living.
Then most of the country was hit with a massive flood. you can google that too. Her village was advised to evacuate but no one did. The river near her villaige nearly burst its banks but was share luck it didnt so I asked to return asap since the chanced of her visiting her dad were zero since all surrounding areas were flooded and also our son was missing his mummy and brother and also there was since still a high of the flooding.
She refused to cut her trip short. Once she returend I learnt she went on many shopping trips and even attented a wedding. I was confused but said nothing to this day since i do not want to hear the excuses.
From my last two trips I didnt feel appreciated by her or her family in pakistan. So if I insist on going I know I will just get stressed over there.
Last nigh we had a long chat and I asked why she thinks I didn't allow her to. Her answer was "She doesn't know" so I explained Since you very very upset I couldn't allow to you travel by youself. Since I had no leave left and honestly was so behind at work since I took 3 weeks of when she went pakistan in August No was I could get anymore time off. Also my passport had expire and would take atleast 4 days to get a new one with a visa. So even if I has quit my job I still could not have gone. Funeral in pakistan are not like funerals here. Over there they all sit in the house for 4 days and cry. Hundrerd of people come and just sit and cry. Her dad was buried one day after her died. So honestly I really could not have made it.
She now accpets that and even checked my passort to make sure it was expired at the time. So I said to her I'll come with you. Once again she said what about his swimming and karate and her has exams in May. I told her he six years old. Missing swimming fot two weeks wont change anything, he has got his orange belt in karake to two weeks wont hurt. she said okay you come for two weeks and come back and I'll stay on for a further two. I went sleep. In the moring I said On
Friday we should all go lego land and she said only me the older kid should go. So I told the tickets are booked for all of us. Then I said look I'm stressed and to destress I want paris by myself just for a day trip and she said no way.
Don't worry about me - I can read ACTUAL WHOLE BOOKS.
Here's what I see...
The quality of communication and understanding between the pair of you is crap with a capital C. It's understandable, given how English isn't her native tongue, meaning, a lot of subtle nuances and contexts, particularly at the start - when comprehending WHY you were elevating her above all expectations - would have been lost on her. But, so much so you're both constantly chattering with your actions instead.
Take that dancing with the groom incident as a prime example. Clearly, how ever you phrased and toned your response didn't quite do it for her, convincement- and flattery-wise. And clearly convincement and verbal-stroke-actioned affection about you having had the normal sense of possessiveness and territorialism of a man in love, was precisely what she was after (a litmus by which to *irrefutably measure* how much you loved and valued her). Ergo, straight discussion having failed to satify, she danced with the groom, KNOWING YOU'D FIND OUT. "Let's see what he does if I doooooooo THIS!!!" Same goes for the preceding discussion: she told you she was uncomfortable with your being there barring proper (platonic) intimacy with her cousins to see if she could provoke you.
Maybe part of the problem, here, has been your over-focus on saying goodbye forever to poverty and meantime not having given her the same attention as back when you told your parents she was not a maid but a queen? TH, it's no good setting standards and expectations and then largely abandoning them. *You* know and *I* know the act of working hard is often a male demonstration of love and loyalty but non-career women don't understand it; it registers as NEGLECT, you having gone off her.
Your trouble was this: that treating-her-like-a-queen behaviour *wasn't* straight adoration and respect. It was partly you sticking it to your parents. Job done and - where does the love and respect go? Answer: DOWN a couple of notches. Add in your obsession with earning and things go from bad to worse. I reckon she's felt you haven't been in-love with her for YEARS. ...Hence the next litmus test: Let's have another baby.
If way back when you'd been honest and confided in her about WHY you were putting her so much higher up that pedestal, i.e. about your much-needed parental rebellion attempt, then she could have worked out for herself that it would naturally drop at some point. And IMO you should have, because I'm seeing between the lines to her OWN late-onset rebellion. So in fact, you have A LOT in common but just don't realise it. Probably because she deals with things differently.
The rest is just resultant details. Some your own fault, the pair of you, and some just normal life sh*t.
What is definitely your fault, though, is that you like to shift responsibility. You SAY we can see who wears the trousers vis-a-vis the getting pregnant incident, but, here's the rub: You protest JUST ENOUGH to exonerate yourself in case things should ever come to placing blame, but your actions - rolling over too readily - speak your REAL feelings, same as they did with your so-called demand for sympathetic leave, same as you've been doing here with everyone.
Mate, you can't blame culture because - you don't even know which is culture and which is standard, innate human behaviour. Specific example: My husband is French-Italian and I'm English-French-Spanish (barely the former) - not Pakistani - and yet we both agree vehemently with that 'don't even GO there' conduct of not putting oneself into any potentially iffy position with anyone who could quite possibly be after a partner-in-crime regarding acting out via the adultery route. We trust *each other* and implicitly. We know that if ever someone DID in whatever way flirt or proposition either of us, that person would get a lecture from hell! Like driving, you yourself can be as great a motorist as you like; it's all the OTHER road-user-idiots you have to watch out for! So how on EARTH can you even rebel properly when you're not even that clear what specifically it is you're rebelling against?!
You and your wife are BOTH issue-ridden and BOTH need counselling - NOT for your marriage because it seems pretty apparent that underneath all this mess and confusion there isn't actually any problem. Together *only* because your familial issues and resultant confusions MATCH despite this differing dealing style.
I still say you can stop the rot and surprisingly quickly turn the tide if you have the b*lls enough to have that recommended heart-to-heart with your wife and simultaneously *insist* (coo, that'd be a first, wouldn't it!?) you're going with her BUT that you're going as her No. 1 supporter, meaning, you'll sleep wherever, eat whatever, do whatever... it's her show. BECAUSE THIS ONE IS, berbom. You don't mess about with things that come under the umbrella of Crunch Time and you were very foolish to have thought you could. You should be picking your battles *and* your weapons a whole lot more carefully. BOTH of you.
You two are slightly retarded. And I mean that in the nicest way possible. A lot of your emotional understanding has been held back due to your both having at the time had your minds forced to cope with other things instead of purely your standard 'education'. A counsellor seeing you together (whereupon you will find OUT just how similar the pair of you are) will be cheaper and, more importantly, help you both to see the truth in what I'm saying.
So ha-ha-PTH! *again* to your dad because he wasn't even *aware* he was picking your female mirror-image, he just thought he was arranging you a fitting bottle-washer, one he HOPED would end up encouraging you back into Pakistani ways. *Fail*. Her actions at that wedding show me I'm right because the urge alone to litmus you wouldn't have been enough to break that taboo. It took her simultaneously wanting to belatedly stick two fingers up to the so-called rules of conduct to tip her over the edge into action. See what I'm saying? And she's not visiting her homeland for her father's sake. It's for her mother. She went on shopping sprees, etc., because her dad was for once out of action and incapable of monitoring and controlling her. See it now?
She's not your dad. You're not her dad. Just stop it, the pair of you, or next you'll be treating *your kids* as if *they* are. Cut the crap together, get real together, and then you won't even CARE if the family are giving you evils or whatever... because you'll be with HER.
Oh. Tsk - typical! I don't read ahead so I've literally only just got to this bit:
"She now accpets that and even checked my passort to make sure it was expired at the time. So I said to her I'll come with you. Once again she said what about his swimming and karate and her has exams in May. I told her he six years old. Missing swimming fot two weeks wont change anything, he has got his orange belt in karake to two weeks wont hurt. ***she said okay you come for two weeks*** and come back and I'll stay on for a further two. I went sleep."
THERE YOU GO!
Was that so hard?
But don't be greedy:
"In the moring I said On Friday we should all go lego land and she said only me the older kid should go. So I told the tickets are booked for all of us. Then I said look I'm stressed and to destress I want paris by myself just for a day trip and she said no way.""
Rome wasn't built in a day. One surprise at a time. Give the poor woman time to dump the old programme and get her head around the new one (or return to the old one, whichever).
But that's a damn good start!
You're NOT lost, you're just impatient now that you know what you're doing.
Wow. I take my hat of to you for your time. How do you do it?
I accept the the comminication is crap and in a arranged marriage is ussally is.
I was going to write many long sentences stating how good I have beed but no point. While reading your replying I got a call from home saying she asked H (Our older child) and he doesn't want to go pakistan becasue he doesn't want to skip swimming or karate and hates the flies...I'm totally confused. I was buying the tickets for myself and H but now I'M lost.
Regarding the dance at the wedding she really didn't want me to see it. The video was supposed to have been edited and that clip was to be deleted. however the camerman can the wrong film..oooops.
I booked the tickets to legoland and she wasn't happy in comming. So I kinda said its a family thing and you really should come so she agreed. I was assume most people would love to go on family outing.
I agree becasue she isn't a career womon she can appreciate the work I do but she does see how her sister lives in a overcrowded council flat which the enviroment agency deemed a risk to the safty of all kids living in it.
We were once talking about life in General and she said in family we accpet xyz to be the norm. I questioned who her family is and she said her mum and sister and brother. i was lost so I asked her where do I and the kids come in. She got confused.
In answer to you previous question..No I really do not have anyone else i put my kids first, I'm trying to give them the best upbringing possible. H starting cycling..emontional moment for me since I can't cycle but I tought him. Sorry I just had to put that in.
I know she doesn't want me to come. If she goes without me I will get depressed not because she wont come back, trust me no one will ever give up their life in the UK for pakistan but becasue of the health risks to my baby (not actually a baby he is 2yrs now).
So I'm totally confused...please tell me what to do?
Despite all this I still do love her. Yes. and yesterday she asked if I'm depressed becasue she is going to go alone and I said yes becasue I love you so much and that I have never loved anyone as much as you aor never ca. I told her what she meant to me and reminded her of all the good times we had, all the nice resturants we been to all the hurdles we jumped over and that the last time she went I missed her like hell and that I died each night that was the longest three weeks of my life and alos how much H missed her and his little brother and how he cried for him on many occasions. I actually shed a tear while saying. I meant it all. I was hoping she will either say lets all go in the summer holidays or all go together now for two weekds but she said nothing, gave me hug and said be brave
I need help.. Please give me short term solution.
(I'm a piano player, used to fast-'typing' 10 characters at a time; actual typing is a doddle.)
Nope, still not lost. That's she declined for over-anxious-mother reasons and/or because she needs time to get with the suddenly-transformed programme does not affect the fact you've done the right thing via an equivocally sincere act. The act stands and will get remembered *and* cancels out the prior faffing about.
"I really didn't want you to see it" is as "I really didn't want you to see it' *does*. She knew she was being video-ed, she knew there was at least SOME CHANCE you might see it, and failing that - what about tittle-tattlers? See what I'm saying?
"I was assume most people would love to go on family outing."
Yes, but she's still got her resentment tap turned to On. It's not a tap that you can twist to Off instantly. It's a sensor-controlled tap. Just give it time to respond. If you want to turn it off much faster then - keep up with the sincere gestures *without* expecting any one of them in isolation or any run of gestures under whatever critical quantum to trigger that tap into switching off. It switches off bit by bit, degree by degree. (That's modern technology for ya - blame the big designer in the sky.) But here's the bottom line: SHE AGREED. Progress!
You CAN'T push someone up a 15 minute road and then expect to push them back down it in 0.6 seconds; doesn't work like that.
"but she does see how her sister lives in a overcrowded council flat"
So? When you're locked into resentment and negativity, you can't SEE the blessings. All you can see are the curses. So what does her sister have that she *doesn't* but *wants*? Or does she attribute this sorry state of living affairs NOT to her sister's husband but to her sister herself ("It's her own fault because..."
? Maybe past baggage between her and her sister is stopping her from making that more sister-generous-minded link?
But here's a tip: ask her if she wants a trip to Legoland *before* you book the tickets (or keep the fact you've already booked them a secret). Then it's not you deciding what's good for her like she's nothing more than the older child but asking her to tell you what it is she thinks she needs. This is the female version of showing respect. She needs freedom to make her own choices and decisions after X years of childhood incarceration, same as you. Otherwise, you're 'being her dad'. Once you've reminded her you're nothing LIKE your dad, I'm sure she'll at that point LET you be her boss more of the time (because everyone needs a hero, if not a despot (even an accidental one)).
"We were once talking about life in General and she said in family we accpet xyz to be the norm. I questioned who her family is and she said her mum and sister and brother. i was lost so I asked her where do I and the kids come in. ***She got confused***"
LOL! But don't think that result will have been lost on her. Again, just give her mind time to join the dots.
"emontional moment for me since I can't cycle but I tought him. Sorry I just had to put that in."
That's alright, mate - women have upsetting cycles too.
"I know she doesn't want me to come."
Maybe she does or is starting to but... that nuisance tap. Maybe she'd feel stupid if she did such a rapid about turn and just needs time to go, 'Ummmmmmmmmmm........errrrrrrrrrrrrrr...........weeeellllllllllll" for the sake of her pride.
If you haven't got or can't summon a bit of patience, you're not going to win this particular challenge. Decide.
"If she goes without me I will get depressed not because she wont come back, trust me no one will ever give up their life in the UK for pakistan but becasue of the health risks to my baby (not actually a baby he is 2yrs now)."
Well, then - make a decision *not* to. She's his mother. Do you REALLY think she would risk his life rather than take all the necessary precautions? I mean - use your noddle? A woman who worries about a kid's welfare on the lower level of not wanting to miss his precious swimming and karate is NOT the type of woman who is careless with her kids' actual safety. Duh?
"Do?" Easy. Be Kind with a Capital K. Have you never HEARD the expression to kill someone with kindness?
If you are the very best man you can be and things STILL don't right themselves, who then is automatically marked out as the 'baddie'?
Again (now having read this second post):
"Despite all this I still do love her. Yes. and yesterday she asked if I'm depressed becasue she is going to go alone and I said yes becasue I love you so much and that I have never loved anyone as much as you aor never ca. I told her what she meant to me and reminded her of all the good times we had, all the nice resturants we been to all the hurdles we jumped over and that the last time she went I missed her like hell and that I died each night that was the longest three weeks of my life and alos how much H missed her and his little brother and how he cried for him on many occasions. I actually shed a tear while saying. I meant it all. I was hoping she will either say lets all go in the summer holidays or all go together now for two weekds but she said nothing, gave me hug and said be brave
I need help.. Please give me short term solution."
10 OUT OF 10! Now give her time. She's a camel. She chews veeeeeeeery slooooooowly before she swallows and digests. That's all.
You got a hug and a kind word, didn't you? The faucet has shifted towards Off a bit. Result!
"Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey". The slower you catch one of those (using kindness), the more likely said monkey won't ever try to escape in the future... because it won't even occur to him. And that's what you're aiming for: Permanence. Slow-acting carbs and fibre. Not MacSatisfaction that lasts all of 3 hours before you're back at Square 1 all over again.
KEEP IT UP.
Your trouble is you've never had to WOO a woman. Or maybe, going by that A1 stellar heart-on-the-floor exercise you just did in front of her, you have?
Wooing. Re-wooing. Same difference. The latter is in fact faster.
One or two straight months of that re-wooing and she'll be putty in your hands. It's no more complicated than the fact humans sneeze if you shove enough dust up their nose. You're just shoving honey in her heart. It's going to go all gooey.
If it doesn't, there's something wrong with her heart. But I don't think so, not going by that hug and kind statement. I think you're on track to a win/win situation here. So just keep it up!
Thank you for your reply.
I didn't reply becasue I wanted to see what happens after out day in LegoLand.
Well we went. Had a fantistic time. Both out kids were so happy that I can not use words to describe it. We decided not to talk about pakistan until we dont get home.
Once home I politley asked my wife shall I come to pakistan with you and she said no. she said Stay here with H and take him swimming. I asked is that your final choice and she said I really dont want you there. So I mentioned My concerns like having no male in her house and the hygene situation but she said its okay you should stay here.
I was hopimg she would say lets together as a family in the summer holidays or lets just go for a short period now.
May I make an observation?
You seem to disdain everything from the old country - memories of your unhappy childhood, it's "depressing and not hygiene", the poverty, crowded conditions - plus there's no one you'd really like to see. Plus you are proud of the 'western life' you have given your family, you say.
(Now, I totally understand staying away from toxic people and places that trigger bad memories. In fact, they say in order for some people to survive, they need to distance themselves from those relationships. You seem to be happy in your place, right now, even though you are in debt,overworked and stressed - ???, really, is that "happy"???)
BUT - your wife does NOT feel that way about her homeland and her family. She wants to go back and "touch" those memories, especially those that make her feel good. That means visiting her family and her father's grave. Her grieving process requires that right now.
So instead of supporting her now, you make it hard for her to grieve. In fact, you deny it.
Plus, even with your "permission" that she can go, you attach some old cultural (religous?) condition to the trip that she not have a male in the house. What is that all about? (In the western world, it is an honor to dance with the bridegroom, by the way. Did you know that?)
Are you concerned about particular males (cousins?) having an influence on her?
"I really don't want you there." Really, WHY?
(Please don't fall back on the hygiene excuse. That's an insult to the millions of people who are happily and healthily living there now)
My childhood was in the UK not pakistan, I accept it was a was pakistani cultural childhood but not in pakistan. pakistan is depressing not because of what happened to me but what I witnes, Like kids begging on the streets, Open sewage flowing around, poor hospital standards, currupt police force and abandoned disables people. Even fellow paksiatis with a darker skin tone are looked down on.
I am over worked but do enjoy it becuase I make a differnce from doing my job. I am in Debt but who isn't. I've saved a fair bit too now. I can change jobs and get an increase of over 30%.
She is not going with my permission. I have said I dont want you going alone. The reason for a male in her home is becasue in pakistan. esp villages generally depend on men are are prime targets for thiefs and other pervs. Again anyone who knows pakistan will know this.
I supported her before her fathers death. Went for walks before and after. Also said I want to come with you to pakistan and to comfort you while you visit you dads grave...Honestly what else can I do.
Its quite normal for some people in the UK to get drunk but I dont do that, others go to church I dont to that either. Every relationship has its limits. I asked my wife not to do it, she promised me and had asked me not to do the same either. Some relationships are very open and allow each other to openly have realtionships with other couples and they deem that fine while other people in the west don't. We all have a out limits.
google how many people are suffering there. visit hospitals there and you will see how many get gifted with diseases. Ever My father in law was made worse by his stay in a pakistani hospital.
Let me just Clarify: I personally would go with my wife or just let her go by herself. My concern is for the kids. i said I'm concerned so if i come I will be able to stay with them and you will be able to spend time with your mum.
I'll keep the kids Indoors and keep them entertained AND KEEP anxieties at rest. So she makes excuses like he will skip swimming and karate. She has also asked for money incase the baby falls ill and has to be hospitilised. Which has happened so some people we know. So she agrees there is a risk!
BTW The groom who she danced with did get hospitalised becasue of a stomach bug and so did so have many others.
I know what she's up to but I didn't want to say anything until I'd 'heard' her reaction to your greater effort at persuading her to let you go with her.
Dad's gone. Now she can go here/there/everywhere and do this/that/this/the other without his disapproval and punishment. If YOU go then she's still got 'a bit of dad' watching her disapprovingly, hasn't she.
Case closed. It's not personal to you. It's called, When the cat's away (or now THAT the cat's permanently away), the mouse (her) will play.
You can cease worrying. Susie's right in that it's part of her grieving process, including her getting to reassure herself that she doesn't even NEED a dad any more.
You did that, didn't you, when you bought the family house.
See? Not that different to you AT ALL.
So the general theme I've got from the replies is that I am in the wrong but none one has explicity said what I should do. I have flowered her with love, given massages and taken out as said already. Her reasons for not wanting me to come does not to make sense to me. So I decided to not to say anything further to her she... has the tickets. No point in me forcing myself onto someone.
Thanks for all those who replied.
You're not in the wrong, per se. (You WERE in the wrong when you blocked her attendance at her dad's funeral but you've cancelled that out now and revealed it to have been a mere slip in judgement purely at the time.) You're more, in the dark. Diff/all the diff. That she agreed to going to Legoland and did her bit to ensure it was a great day out is supposed to reassure you enough to allow you to relax and enjoy your time whilst she's gone, and make the most of it.
What you should do is HELP her to get the last of her (clearly over-domineering) dad out of her system, by ensuring she goes off without any weight on her mind so that she can metaphorically chew gum in public, spit on the pavements, graffiti all the phoneboxes, stick her tongue out at strangers and maybe even do a bit of apple-scrumping. I'll say it again, this trip is called Screw You, Dad! Doesn't mean she didn't LOVE her dad. Just means this is her chance to to back in the lion's den now that there's no lion in it, and stick two fingers up to the ghost of the lion whilst finally getting to APPRECIATE the den for its own merits. LONG-overdue rebellion exercise. She can't belatedly rebel against her dad in the UK, can she, because that's not where he over-controlled and suppressed her.
In fact, it's thanks to you and your refusal way back when to keep her in a servant role that she's even CAPABLE of this vital rebellion now that the kids are less hands- and mind-on. It's taken her that long to get her confidence and sense of self and identity back, ready to prove it back in India.
Do you understand what I'm saying?
I recommend that while she's gone you keep up-to-date with the housework and let her KNOW you will so that she can REALLY kick up her heels without the thought of a mountain of chaos to return to. I also recommend you learn to cycle so that you and son can firm up your existing bond. I mean - enough said that your own dad never taught you.
If you ask me, it's your dad and hers who should have been the ones to marry. LOL They'd have made a LOVELY couple!
But anyway, if her self-therapy exercise is that much more effective thanks directly to YOU, it'll make her eternally grateful. Trust me on that.
I also imagine that if she can make the most of the exercise, her keen need to keep going back will by whatever degree get laid to rest.
It's all good.
Just doesn't feel like it at the time.
Sorry Soulmate I've just seen you reply.
I've read up on the grieving process and realised its not going to easy. I know It'll be hard. But surely she knows its not safe for the baby and also the kid she will leave here will miss his brother and his mummy as he did last time. I get the mouse wanting to play but it can play here and go out with its mate and and break other customs set by her dad.
I brought the house more out of need than proving myself to me dad. Its a future for my kids.
I want to tell her strainght up that what she is going to make he leave but she is such a weak character. Gosh I don't why I got myself into this mess.
Lets see what happens
Okay I'll follow your advice.
"I get the mouse wanting to play but it can play here and go out with its mate and and break other customs set by her dad."
Nope. Not everyone can do that. It has to be "the" lion's den. It has to be where his 'ghost' lives.
"I brought the house more out of need than proving myself to me dad. Its a future for my kids."
That's what YOU think. You under-estimate the need to rebel after an excessive amount of suppression. So that was you doing the typical blokey thing of two outcomes for the price of one action, meaning, it was more 50/50.
The kid she'll leave here TO HAVE DAD ALL TO HIMSELF will miss them a lot less if he gets to feel special by 'helping dad to learn to ride a bike' and getting to go on long rides with him, taking picnics, etc. (Spring's hit, in case you hadn't noticed).
"I want to tell her strainght up that what she is going to make he leave but she is such a weak character. Gosh I don't why I got myself into this mess."
Did it occur to anyone she may have a Mr someone there who she would like to spend some time with???
It occurred to me that it had occurred to you, yes. But do I agree? No. Lots of reasons... not least because she's taking the youngest kids with her. Also, who are you suggesting she's dallying with - that groom she danced with? If she was going to break that taboo in the first place, why not kill two birds and dance with 'him' (whoever he supposedly is) instead?
What makes *you* suspect that (by which I mean fear)? Because you can't understand where she's coming from otherwise?
In a bizzare twist to my life she agreed for me to come. She told her friend her only issue with her life is that i don't keep the kids in the weekend and let her to go out. So she asked my and i said I'll happily keep em both in fact it'll be a pleasure.
Then i said your ticket is booked for the 8th and i can't come until 12 so she said its no problem. I'm amazed. So we are all set to go.
So seems like problem solved.
no i thought she may have a mr someone but never the groom because he is in the uk.
There you go - told ya! Embracing a newly-instated programme just takes TIME.
You are *far* too impatient, albeit I get why (because the delay caused by prior paralysis has banked-up to where it's now at bursting point). You need to work on that.
Also, I was going to see if you could work out for yourself the greatest evidence contra to your suspicion, i.e. INFREQUENCY. No-one agrees to an affair where they get to be with their lover but once a year or twice at the most (laugh out loud!). So you need to calm down, now, as well, because being het up makes you very, very blinkered.
PS: Told ya!
PPS: Told ya!
PPPS: (No, *you* stop, LOL
PS: What's her favourite English meal?
Her favourite English meal is fish chips. But most favourite food is chicken biryani.
I have learnt a lot since typing my views on this platform.
I have learnt my ultimate goal on asking for advice from this site was to be told that I am correct and my wife is in the wrong for wanting to go back to pakistan.
My views and her views are completley different. She was married of at an early age so never really devoloped as a woman and since I was depreived from achieving my full potential I wanted my kids to achieve what I couldn't. Because of this my I am still living a life where everyday is a battle to make sure my kids achieve what I couldn't and everything else goes on the back burner. So when the wife says she wants to visit pakistan I cant justify it since it will not benefit by kids in achieving theit best.
Since she knows I dont like it over there she assumed I will be grumpy if I go there so she insisted I stay away. Maybe other reasons too like enjoying a free life without her dad. So once all reasons were exchausted and I could not blame her the only excuse I had was maybe she had a lover over there. How silly of me.
So then when I said I will struggle without her and the baby and when she eventally said sod evething just come with me I should have jumped in joy but I didn't.
In fact I feel worse. In the past I was blaming her but now to be fair the onus is on me. The ball is in my court and I should be happy but I actaully depressed.
I am not saying she is perfect but in this case I am in the wrong.
Quite recently I have been put underpressur by my dad to bring his mother over to the UK. to shut him I agreed and put the application through but then cancelled it before it got accepeted. A normal person would have either told daddy strainght up No. Or Stoppped all communication with such a person but not me.
deep inside me I feel sorry for him and/or fear him. He has influenced indireclty influenced me.
So to conclude I feel like my mind is twisted and packed with cobwebs...
My wife agreed for us to go together but wants to stay on for 2 weeks after I return back. I am getting anxious over going and meeting the bacteria and virused and now I'm stuck again and feel like I will have a mental breakdown. At the same time my grandmothers visa will get rejected so my dad in pakistan will be moaning and wanting to come back. Someone please advice what sort of healp I should get?
Learn to say,
"I'm sorry, but I am not able to do that."
"Sorry, i am not able to help you in that way. What else can I help with?"
Practice saying it. Say it over and over again.
Stop doing things just to please others. Learn to stand up for yourself. Learn to say NO!!
Re the trip: Why don't you just RELAX and face things as they come? You obsession with bacteria and viruses are not proven. Stop conjuring up reasons to be anxious.
Get the Dr. to give you something to relax you before your blow a gasket!!
In order of posting:
1. "Her favourite English meal is fish chips. But most favourite food is chicken biryani."
Good. Because either of those two are what you're going to cook for her the night before she leaves ahead of you (get the simplest recipe off the web). Did you know that when a woman cooks from scratch a lovely meal for you, it's her version of giving you a "bouquet of flowers"? She's going to leave with a great big warm glow from yet more *proof* that you do value her and care about and *understand* the way she ticks and her feelings as much as the kids'.
2. "I am not saying she is perfect but in this case I am in the wrong. "
Sod 'wrong'. It's not about wrong. It's about being as clever as is within your capabilities, which means learning to ignore and think *through* the mental clouds called Upset (in your case, caused by the easiest, first-stop solution called Suspicion). It means, never letting mere emotions get the better of you. I know men are denied the all-important practise, but everyone's challenge in life is to control those emotions that, in the context of a modern societal set-up, prove self-destructive either in the moment or later down the line. Despite you and your gender have that handicap of lack of practise foisted upon you from a very early age, along with the burden of financial responsibility, at least you don't have monthly periods nor pregnancies and the terror and agony of childbirth...and whinging, screaming kids. Comme ci, comme ca... every cloud... count your blessings instead of constantly focusing on what you *don't* have or have yet.
Reminds me of a joke:
What kids say to mum:
"Mum, why can't I have a biscuit?"
"Mum, he/she said blah!"
"Mum, I can't sleep"
"Mum, I think I'm going to be sick"
What kids say to dad:
You may pitch in (tick!) but you're not their on-call 24/7 boss, are you. (Why - do you want to swap?! ;-p)
3. You're not depressed, anxious, etc., you're just having a bog-standard psychological reaction. It'll pass. It's called, out of your comfort zone (hurrah!). Two more repetitions (big deal) and already it'll have become a new habit.
It's a good sign that she wants that extra two whole weeks alone (to do that overdue running-riot). It's her attempting to use this rare opportunity to put the need to permanent rest.
4. Moaning HOW? Over the phone? Try this: "Sorry, I think one of the kids has just fallen over and hurt themselves, gotta go! [click]". Do that enough times and he'll get the message. Alternatively, tell the truth and repeat what I advised on your other thread to put in a letter. What's he going to do? Reach his hand through the telephone ether and throttle you? Ey dyon't thyink syo. You have the power. Rightfully so. It's your Comes Around (and his).
5. Agree with Susie about getting a short course of something mildly anti-depressive from your GP. Alternatively, start NOW with taking award-winning Omega 3 EPA/DHA fish oil capsules. That's what I take (from Healthspan) and is what prevents me from wanting to reach my hand through the ether to slap most of you posters' faces, LOL. (joke) (??)
There's not actually anything wrong here, aside from dread and you here and there misattributing the cause.
So say it with me as a preambling limbering-up: "It just so happens that my dad is a bit of a w**k*r". Go on, you know you want to.
Thanks for your advice. The wife realised that our older kid was kinda getting sad when he was told his mummy will before him so she decided to go for only weeks. Since it was a last minute decision the ticket prices got very expensive but we agreed its okay lets just go for it. So she compromised for 2 weeks in total. Then her mum found it and all hell broke lose. I was teaching myself to overcome my anxieties and all was going well until she threw the spanner into the works.
Now my wife is anxious since her mum is telling her she is mad and whats the point of coming for just 2 weeks.
You are not going to please everyone. So stop thinking that you have to. THIS is what is causing you so much anxiety. The little boy in you gets upset when the "critical parent" starts yelling at you.
When your relatives start this guilt/shame/anger/blame/sad scene, just smile or walk into the other room.
You will NEVER win these issues with them - so don't get into the ring with them. (Understand? A boxing match takes place in a ring. Don't get into that place with them.)
Perhaps some counseling when you get back (with a male counselor) can help you get the skills to deal with this kind of relatives that has permeated your marriage and your personal outlook.
Try to have a good time!
Nice one, Susie - couldn't have put it better meself!
Also, TH, two weeks is better than no weeks, albeit I can understand where her mum's coming from because, what with her husband having died, she needs her grown-up kids around her. It must be very hard on her having her daughters living so far away (and Skype is not the same). Just a shame the woman has never learnt better ways to ask and complain, isn't it.
Your poor wife, though. Talk about piggie in the middle being pulled from all sides. So I still say you and she should seek counselling/assertiveness (and de-guilt-ing) training *together* to save on costs and unnecessary duplications. Otherwise, the pair of you are just going to keep on having to take it in turns when it comes to being the anxious and guilty one versus the 'victim-empathiser-supporter', depending on which parent is dishing out the aggro. Seems a bit silly and inefficient to me, doesn't it you?
But - question: Have you and your wife ever thought to fly mum-in-law over? Or is that like asking you to stick needles in your eyes? LOL
(Parents, eh?...cuh! They don't half tuck you up.)
Thank you for your advice. We went to pakistan and have now returned. We both feel better now. I feel better becuase I can now move on and the wife feels better because she spent time with her mum and saw her dads Grave.
Thank you agaian
Wonderful news, TH! And thank-you sincerely for having been so thoughtful as to have taken the trouble to come back and let us know it was a happy ending.
My son actaullly like it and was happy to see his grandad. lol