Women who focus on their children's rearing to the exclusion of anything else in terms of weightiness and competiton-worthiness are you to be applauded. BUT HERE IS ITS DOWNSIDE. Everything has one. So to feel lost is natural and par for the course. What isn't quite so natural is trying to find justifications for the overkill of completely transforming your life of old where that means considering trading in your husband for a new and better model.
So here's the acid question: Did you [a] divert your attention away from your husband and almost exclusively towards you children because you realised that good baby specimen-creating aside, you had settled down with the wrong partner (which fact you can no longer ignore or tolerate) or [b] did you 'lose touch' with each other because you concentrated on the children to the exclusion of him as forced him to create a life of his own that largely excluded you and his status of married man?
"its normally me who says lets go for a walk never him." That's quite common with a lot of husbands (as is only going out at the weekends). Wife becomes Social Secretary.
I think it's more likely that you're panicking because your main job and interest is (are) about to make itself redundant and, surprised by how crap it can make a woman feel, are busily scanning around you to find something to blame it on so that you feel less "mad". You're not mad, it's normal. That's not to say your marriage hasn't fallen into a rut, outside of which you're living almost separate lives. But rut is not the same as him being a cheater. I know cheaters inside and out, backwards and forwards, even fourth-dimensionally, and NOTHING up there made my ultra-sensitive (this case, cheater-) radar go BEEP.
You need a job, a new purpose (and new faces and stimulii). If that's a frightening prospect (which, after years of being Super-Mum, it will be) then I suggest you start by going for something VERY part-time. Baby Steps. What sort of things appeal? What can you see yourself enjoying doing just once or twice a week?
"I gave him more attention then I ever got in return."
So what on earth made you persist in that? If you were a shop customer buying something that cost £10 but only gave the owner £5 and the owner showed no negative reaction and indeed went as far as to open the door for you with a warm smile and a 'Do come again!' - wouldn't YOU see it that you need never pay the going amount, never take any pricetag seriously, in order to gain whatever it was you wanted?
Granted, some high moralled people in that situation might insist on paying the full Tenner. But clearly that's not him. So why did you keep giving him the goods for free or cut price? Didn't care all that much whilst you had the kids to concentrate on, but now you don't ergo now you do?
"I asked him were he saw us in the future and he said he didnt know."
WHEN did you? If recent, then couldn't that be said to be on a par with that 'great', unanswerable interview question that goes, Where do you see yourself in 5 years' time? (Answer: I don't have a clue because I don't have a crystal ball.) I'm not suggesting some people *aren't* intelligent enough to work out that that means, where do you WANT TO BE in 5 years. But your husband is obviously a bit of a slippery bugger. YOU must know that, surely? So why even GIVE him that inch?
Madam, that you asked such an important question in a way so vague it positively ENCOURAGED a slippery, uncooperative bugger to give an answer open to negative interpretation reveals YOUR uncertainty... which is what I observed up there. That he feels as torn as you is to be expected considering a relationship is a three-legged-race whether in the upwards (bonding) direction or in reverse (detaching).
Ask him again more specifically: 'Do you see us still married to one another in the future?', and then report back. But don't you know how men's minds work? The very UNSURE AND NEGATIVE NATURE of the question was BOUND to have him taking that as a clue that you no longer want him and giving you a guarded and future-face-saving response in case he's right. A wife whom HERSELF is sure wouldn't have framed the question like that. In fact, she wouldn't even have asked such a question in the first place (so there's your answer about being reassuring enough, eh!). So ask again more positively and confidently. OR, if you want to be even more sure of his answer, ask him like this: Do you think when we're old and grey we might think about [insert plan, e.g. emmigrating or buying a Winnebago]?
Anyway, you shouldn't want whatever you want to hinge entirely on what the other person wants. You should know what you want and seek a CATEGORICALLY reciprocal sentiment, which, if you didn't get it, you THEN form decisions on from. So why don't you just bite the bullet and ask, 'Yes or no - am I correct in thinking you want a divorce now or within the foreseeable future?'.
Stop trying to get fired as if that's somehow easier than resigning. For starters, you don't even KNOW yet whether you even WANT to resign. And neither CAN you. Not until you go get yourself that part-time job and THEN see how you feel.
Eliminate the most obvious culprits FIRST instead of planning to immediately throw baby out with the bathwater.
And perhaps at times you wished he did say it, that he did want a divorce. But you will never instigate it, but go along with it and not feel so guilty if it is him who wants it.
And could it be that if he is cheating that would be easier for you to leave? Right now there isn't a reason, other than your suspicions and your feeling of helplessness, that your life is miserable. Ok to some that would be enough. But to leave a marriage when your partner hasn't cheated or been abusive, well it's harder to leave I think. Because most friends or family will ask why? and giving an answer of 'I'm not happy any more' well probably would get more understanding and sympathy from them if the answer is 'he cheated on me'
And did you stay with him all those years because of the children? And if that's why, I can understand that now you want to think of yourself,
We all need love and attention, hugs and kisses and its just not the same when you have to ask for them!
We have it in our heads well some of us, that if it were only like the movies or a book.
And I think we are all guilty of saying things we shouldn't have but at the time when we are angry we are only focused on hurting the other person. Does he still say things like that to you? ' he once said he unfortunately had a photo of me in his wallet when I asked if he had one of me and had I thought of becoming a mail order bride and have I talked to the wall yet when I was on anti depressants
or was that in the past, not that its acceptable then but was that all in the past?
7 weeks is a long time when you want something here and now! but while you are waiting for it to come round, treat yourself (finances permitting) go buy some new clothes, get your hair done, a facial your nails. Go out for a night with one of your kids, or a family member/friend that you get along with. Is there some club in your area that you could join? Try keep your thoughts positive till you get to your holiday. Enrol in some online courses that interest you. There are a lot of sites and many are free.
I think the key is to distract ourselves till we get to a happier point, for you now is your holiday. And maybe you will see the man who you cared for long ago surface. No work less stress, everyone just relaxing. And if things are still as bad during or after well its never too late to start a new life. But I think if you get it into your head that it doesn't have to be this way forever! that you do have options, maybe you can take one day at a time, knowing that life can get better. It's never too late!
Hope you have a good holiday
"I want to add that he once said he unfortunately had a photo of me in his wallet when I asked if he had one of me and had I thought of becoming a mail order bride and have I talked to the wall yet when I was on anti depressants. This was all said years ago but i will never forget it and my father as said, whats the attraction my husband saw in me and I would of ended up a spinster if I hadnt of met my husband so have I married my dad with my husband saying horrible things like he did? He said when I asked him to take the photo of us, oh I suppose so and said it was a joke and cant we have a laugh anymore"
Well, ITS ME, why on earth didn't you say so from the start? Okay, *now* I appreciate why you're suspicious.
Let's go through it all with a fine-tooth comb...
1. Yes, why wouldn't he want you to have a recent photo of you and he together as a couple? The usual reason is because you might put it on Facebook where someone ELSE might clock it and be struck by the contradiction it posed to what they'd been told ("It's a loveless marriage/she can't stand me/I'm just waiting for the day I can divorce her once the kids have left home"). Alternatively, it might be a preventative measure to one who *intends* to come out with that married-man-wanting-to-cheat gumph. Yes, this would definitely rouse my suspicions. I can't think of ANY innocent reason for his trying to wheedle out of being photographed as a couple. Plus if he liked photos of you, the simple solution is to take BOTH.
"He said when I asked him to take the photo of us, oh I suppose so and said it was a joke and cant we have a laugh anymore""
Pff. Where's the punchline? I can't see it, can you? Strange joke if you ask me. The fact remains, regardless, that his first response was to attempt to avoid being 'recorded' as behaving like your happily married spouse.
EVIDENCE FOR STRAYING/PLANNING IT, ITEM NO. 1.
2. Yes, wanting to stay together but being able to SEE it are indeed two separate things. Iffy. And when added to the above piece of concrete evidence and the altogether more clear backdrop you've now provided - even more compelling.
3. Have you thought of becoming a mail-order bride? What on EARTH was this said apropos of? And did HE say 'unfortunately' or was that you just now?
4. Him reckoning (to the point of saying it out-loud) that it's YOU who doesn't want you to be together sounds like... She doesn't want me so I'd better find someone who does. Whether merely self-justification/demonisation in order to quell guilt over what is already, unbeknownst to you, a fait accomplis in motion or whether testament to how he's truly been feeling hence *mulling over* the idea of getting a mistress, is usually impossible to say from this....were it not for the fact you've asserted vehemently that you did the OPPOSITE to neglecting him, even when an active mother.
5. Your own father has made that (wholly unfounded) dig at you, his own precious child? Er...pardon? Yes, if it was your husband who said 'unfortunately', it DOES sound like you've married your father!
Did your father say that in the heat of a big argument? I mean, no excuse even if he did but at least it would put it into better perspective?
6. "I found a un wrapped condom in our wheelie bin and our son as used them as he as got a girlfriend. My husband got sterilized 17 years ago but how do I know its not from my husband? Why was it still in the bag if our son had bought it? I feel to embarrassed to ask our son so how do I find out the truth?"
I guess what you're getting at is whether the condom was intended as STD avoidance rather than contraception, correct? That I don't know.
Question: If it was unopened, what was the Use By date? If you don't know - is it still there / can you check?
Question: If your husband were straying or actively attempting to, would he be stupid enough to dispose of the evidence where you of all people were highly likely to come across it?
Question: Is the wheelie bin en route between where your husband parks his car and the front door?
What else have you noticed in terms of changes in his behaviour, appearance, demeanour, time-keeping, etcetera?
Four years is a long (what-should-be) test drive. Are we to presume that, the kids coming so soon into the picture, you were too busily distracted with nappies and such to meet those early misgivings and suspicions head-on? Or did you feel that with having young kids you were now trapped and under maternal-protective pressure to make the best of things and, aided by his begging you to reverse your decision to end it, too easily swayed by an initial show of putting his money where his mouth was?
Why at that point or any other since didn't either or the pair of you think to seek marital counselling? Or did you work quite well as 'mum and dad' and didn't even have time to recognise the romantic failure aspect (until the kids started to near independence)?
You're definitely not mad or paranoid, though, because (aside from anything else including the concrete) when one is satisfied and happy with one's relationship, the response to whether you'll stay 'til death' as a couple is just plain 'yes' and/or 'of course!', simply because the fact that unforeseeable events could somehow cast the relationship asunder is a tacit given as applies to ALL couples and thus needs no mentioning. That he did and keeps doing so, when judged within this now global context of misdemeanours and suspect scenarios and other comments, changes its nature from a sign of insecurity to shiftiness in terms of misgivings of his own thus a loathness to reaffirm his sense of commitment. So were I to hazard a guess, I would say that he's less trying to augment whatever's missing from outside the relationship by bringing in a secret third party than trying, increasingly as things go from bad to worse, to slowly and as seamlessly as possible move further and further away and out of it, but that it DOESN'T meanwhile deter him from having some away type fun in the process. Do you agree or do you think, no matter his hurtful responses to your request for reassurances, he'd stay put if he could long-term have his cake and eat it?
You can't, however, claim to have had no influence on his non-committal noises because, as I've already pointed out, your question itself would have struck as the opposite of reassuring. However, that's not to say that a happier, more confident man wouldn't have put his own feelings and pride aside when recognising with concern and alarm that the nature of your question itself was a request for reassurance for YOU. Saying THAT, however, if your past attempts to gain reassurance have likewise presented as signs of huge cause for concern out of a lack of tact and diplomacy then this could suggest a whole web of negativity and demoralisation that, unbeknownst to him as well as you, just needs skilful unravelling, thread by thread, in order to get back a semblance of unity and romance. But have things gone too far now for that?
If I put a loaded and cocked gun to your head and said, 'Divorce or Counselling - CHOOSE - NOW!' (and failure to make a choice carried the same risk) - which would it be?
But before you answer that, answer this (because it's a typical blockade): Do you even NEED a family around you to break out of (or make good with the aid of a counsellor) a marriage that for too long has proven highly dissatisfactory to you AND, seemingly, to him?
What renegotiations did you strike that time you'd decided to ship out before he went and begged you to reconsider? With WHAT (singular or plural) did he manage to persuade you round? And how long did it take for him to (I heavily presume) slide back into old habits?
But listen... Here I am trying to address the crux problem and how to act in response whilst you keep harking on about the mere details and symptoms. This isn't a criticism, it's an observation, one that's indicative of your not being nearly ready to take the bull by the horns.
Best you get it all out of your system first, then.
The sudden interest in the Willie Nelson song isn't clear-cut enough as evidence. For all you know, the song is his commentary over you and he (hence why he ensured you sat through it). Not to say, however, that it isn't a contrived act meant purely to keep you placated in terms of his appearing to likewise want to save the marriage. Who's to say?
Same goes for the text message, possibly. Could you type it here, verbatim or near-as-damnit in case I might be able to tell which?
" but its easier said then done when you love someone which I do but I also have a lot of hatred for him. "
TELL me aboud id! Does 'invasion of the body [his] snatchers' go a long way to describing your shock and disillusionment?
Okay, so what I'm getting here is that you *want* to do the right thing by yourself in order to be true to yourself and what you always thought you'd be capable of doing (in terms of how to react) but are finding it nigh-on impossible.
Yes. What's your problem with this? Was Rome built in a day?
Do understand that this is a personal process of yours that you're going through - no matter that it involves this man - and that processes (albeit can be speeded up by those in the know) have to take their own sweet time, and that a process consists of distinct stages? Well, now you do.
As for me, all I wanted to know was what you WANTED. Now I do. So now we know where you're headed / what you're working towards, don't we. That trajectory of yours as is guaranteed to hit his radar MIGHT in actual fact provide the catalyst for a complete turn-around on his part...however, you mustn't focus on that because you can't walk in the direction of healing and self- and life-improvement when all the time you're hoping to be pulled off and back; it won't work: one leg will be pulling ahead whilst the other dithers or pulls you back. Result: going nowhere but back and forth on the spot. And you've had ENOUGH of that, right? (Right!)
Er, no you have NOT been taken for a fool. HE'S the fool (if he is cheating, I mean). There is NOTHING foolish about giving someone your love and trust, that's what you're SUPPOSED to do (certainly if you want a relationship worth having). What you're NOT supposed to do, as the recipient, is MISUSE it. HE'S THE FOOL - GET IT RIGHT AND DON'T FORGET IT. He's foolish/confused/whatever and because you joined your lives as one, you're involved and feeling its full effects. So what you need to do is get OUT of his crosshairs.
This, cheating or behaving in ways that convince your partner you are, is just another form of bullying (can you see it?). You're a victim and need to learn how to cease being one. That's not rocket science but you have to allow yourself to become ready for it.
If he's NOT cheating then you have a different scenario to deal with, one that basically comes down to you being forced to live a lifestyle you obviously can't hack and your partner refusing to care or do whatever's in his power to ensure YOUR happiness, not just his own.
You need to let your 'backroom boys' (subconscious) do their jigsaw thang in putting together all the obvious and almost imperceptible little pieces until you can see what case you're dealing with here - [a] committing adultery or [b] being a pompous, over-entitled a*se, basically, or [c] being SUCH a pompous a*se and for so long that you wish he WERE cheating (for obvious reasons).
Time (and venting). Don't force yourself, just keep spilling, ranting and getting the overflow out of your system until it all goes PING!
What else does he do that makes you feel unloved/cheated-on, etc? Have a good puke, go on!
I wouldn't recommend trying to live with it because it'll knock the confidence and then self-esteem RIGHT out of you and far quicker than you'd imagine. Nor would I, you cheating back; again, the self-esteem....you'd just be ruining your own perception of and trust in yourself...basically lowering yourself to sleazebag level (and you have to LIVE with yourself, remember?). Plus, once you CROSS that line....
Wouldn't you rather have your next relationship as a freely available (and self-liking, proud) woman so that the relationship had the room to grow and develop properly?
Yes, his boss could be a cheater, ...misery loves company and all that, and cheaters feel less like sh*theads if they can say, 'But everyone else does it?!' Yeah, well...You didn't MARRY everyone else, nor marry him because you thought he was not so bad for a scumbag, did you.
Listen... This is NOT the nadir of your life despite it always feels too convincingly like it is at the time. This is just a painful doorway to a better life and relationship (think pain of childbirth that ends in a bundle of joy). It's either going to be a perfectly good baby or a SUPER-BABY! This is not a Lose situation (unless you make it so).
However, we can talk about that another time...first thing's first: What about the obvious option of confronting him with this list of suspicious activities? Or hiring a private detective so that you can put your mind at rest one way or the other? At least then you'd be in a position to decide which course of action to take next, wouldn't you, whether that be you biding your time for the sake of your youngest whilst insisting you and he convert it to an open marriage? Or insisting he behave himself while doing likewise or the marriage gets it (and you, half the marital wealth and assets)? Or trying another counsellor (one with experience of cheaters AND preferably of being cheated on)? Or even visiting a solicitor just to see what would be what 'if'? Or insisting on a formal separation? LOTS of options...
People always fear visiting a solicitor as if it represents a point of no return. Rubbish. In actual fact, 99% of them come out feeling MUCH better, MUCH more strong, sorted and confident about what and how to do, etc., and saying, 'Jesus, WHY DIDN'T I DO THAT SOONER?!'. You need that confidence injection, I think, whether or NOT you then later go on to wanting to start the procedure. And I think he needs to WITNESS that confidence injection with its No Nonsense side effect (even if he hasn't a clue where it's come from).
Are you incapable of calling for a divorce or even putting one foot onto DivorceLand territory like that unless you have something very concrete with which to justify yourself and your intention? Because, even if he WEREN'T committing adultery he's still in too many other ways not behaving in line with the marital contract both legal and tacit, right? And to the point where you've had enough with a capital E?
Or what are you saying - that you still want him if he still wants YOU but if secretly he doesn't want you nor has done for years, that's it?
Oh, and what happened to the venting, then? That wasn't venting, that was just calmly citing. Don't you feel like screaming and throwing things? Or have you DONE all that already (or think you have)?
I'm talking RANTING...calling him horrid names if you need to. As long as you can insert asterisks in the expletives, I'm giving you carte blanche to talk like a monster who's cage has just been toppled over, let alone rattled. Don't you want to make use of that free-license, not exactly common opportunity?
But, anyway, WOW, you move fast?!
Sulking out of resentment or not, he shouldn't be using the kids as messengers with information intended for you and which has nothing to do with them (he's their dad, not their husband). The fact he's texting them with information he'd normally send to you, speaks volumes to them in terms of why he'd feel he had to do that.
Now he's forced you to have to be honest with your kids in explaining either that you and he have had a long-running argument come to a head as means you need a period of separation or that you and he have decided you can no longer live in the same house together due to long-unresolved issues. Don't give them the information all in one hit, it'll be too much, no matter how grown up they otherwise are. Where you and your husband are concerned, they are KIDS and always will be in that context. Feed them manageable little kid-sized bites so that they can adapt gradually. After all, you don't have a crystal ball and for all you know this could be a giant catalyst to his cleaning up his act followed by you and he finally tackling and rectifying all the problems that led you and he to this place. What's important for now is that you've finally put your money where your mouth is when it comes to saying, 'I am NOT having this, I refuse to live my life like this!...and now you know you should have taken me seriously before now and listened'.
One step at a time.
And now, tell me why you're blanking those parts in my post that deal with you letting out all that banked-up emotion? Do you not feel safe enough, now, to take that cork OUT?
Anyway, HOW would your husband see it and, even if he did, how on earth would he know it was you rather than one of the millions of wives out there in your exact boat with even the same or uncannily similar ins and outs going on?
Sorry, but you're going to have to do more than that to convince administration when the original thread-initiation stated very firmly and unmissably in Red the following condition to which the act of starting a thread demonstrates compliance:
"Please Note: Information you add to this site may be beneficial to future visitors who are facing similar problems. For this reason, forum threads and posts are only deleted at our discretion. Use of your account signifies acknowledgement and agreement to this condition."
I can advise you better only if and once you can explain your reasons in full regarding what the problem is / why you think you have a case for deletion, given what I've just pointed out.
What I'm saying I'm seeing is: someone at some point back but relatively recently has given him the impression he's actually very sexy, a good catch, whatever (but certainly sexy) and the power's gone completely to his head, having him believing he could quite possibly manage to attract or bag anyone or anything (- not bad for a man who'd been thinking he was past it!). Again, not uncommon stuff. However, that doesn't eliminate the possibility (ref giving son a lift and him wanting a chance to ogle her) of his having been eager for the side opportunity to talk in secret to or text with a mistress or side candidate well outside of your radar range.
But, IT'S ME, you *still* haven't answered my questions, including in particular WHY it is you aren't venting. ..Although I think I see why, now. Obviously you're still nowhere near being decided about putting your foot down all the way and meaning it, no matter WHAT you type to indicate that you've actually chucked him out. How could the man possibly respond to a need for a lift unless he were back inside the marital home. So you did not chuck him out, or else didn't believe you when you said you wanted a divorce, hence came home again...which you clearly let him do, meaning that foot-putting-down exercise was not only a complete waste of your emotional energy but has meant from his POV that this and all future ultimatums should not be taken seriously.
That he came back does *not* mean he wants YOU back. He just doesn't want to have to go to all the major hassle of finding somewhere else to live, etc.
So do you think you could stop torturing yourself and just accept, now, that although still PHYSICALLY there, your husband's HEART AND MIND 'left the building' months back, and start thinking and acting and planning accordingly? You can't 'stop the tide' by busying yourself constantly with detective work over the minute details and mere symptoms, it'll get you nowhere except more and more worked up and even LESS capable of thinking straight.
Er, hello??? What are we talking here - you having basically moved out from mum and dad's into a quasi mum and dad's? Are you incapable of taking the Motown attitude of, Got along without you before I met you, gonna get a along without you now? Did you NOT get along without him once? Are you leg-less in a chair and need to be WHEELED out of that sham of a marriage?
How illogical is it to claim you're incapable of (if need be) divorcing him and thereafter living independently yet not so incapable that you can't do the far harder thing of taking your own life? Or is that just emotional overwrought-ness talking?
Seriously, are you hearing yourself?
As for the legal fees: YOU'RE MARRIED. YOU DON'T *NEED* LEGAL AID! HIS CASA - TU CASA, HIS WEALTH AND ASSETS - TU WEALTH AND ASSETS! That's what marriage means! Find a solicitor out of the PLENTY who don't take a dime until the court orders the transfer of funds, etc., into your account!
Now to the 'kids': Appearances? APPEARANCES? Let me TELL you about appearances:
YES, it's upsetting for them whatever their age because they will always, when in context of you, be kids and you mum-and-dad. But - fact! - it is FAR more harmful when presented with that seeming 'rock and hard place' for kids to have to habitually soak up vibes and acts that all translate to this: Marriage means you can choose either be the cheating basstud or the put-upon victim-doormat. Yeah, great lesson. Methinks it's needs a flourish called, 'THINK AGAIN, KIDDIEWINKS, AND WATCH 'N LEARN!'. It's called, taking no sh*t, particularly when NOT taking sh*t is an option that has firmly been closed off to you...aka, how to love and stand up for yourself as if you MATTER!
According to you, what the heck have you got to LOSE? You're ALREADY miserable, and that's even if it were TRUE that equal or worse misery awaits you (oh no it does *not*!). An end to misery is what awaits, be it in the form of Just Better or I've Found Heaven! Can you even WAIT until the youngest goes, considering you're already in trouble?
I think not. SAVE YOURSELF AND YOUR SANITY WHILE YOU SO EASILY CAN. If you can't do it for yourself, do it for your kids and your future grandkids.
Discussion closed - why not create your own thread?