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What's the deal?

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I'm 39 and my wife is 28. We've been married for almost 7 years now. But lately it's been a little rocky to say the least. Back in June is when it first started. My wife has lesbian friends and she went to a gay pride rally thing to show support. Which I was fine with. Then this same women she went to support had a forth of July cookout like the day before the fourth. She went to it. And never came home that night. I called and texted all night. To get no answer from her till about 3 in the morning. I ask her wtf is going on she claimed she just drank to much and passed out. I've never known my wife to do that. She had never stayed out one single night since we've been married. So I let her go off the phone. Thought after that she was on her way home. No she was not. She went back to sleep and didn't come home till 8 in the morn. She apologized went moved past it for about a week I was checking her phone records and text records. And noticed this one number she was texting and calling a lot. So I asked who it was she told me a girl names Shawna and that she thinks she's in love with her. I almost lost my wife that day. Till she woke up and realized what was going on and apologized and got rid of her never to talk to her again. Which was fine. I let it go. She had a weakness for whatever reason and I let it go. Then she wants to go away for a weekend to herby park with her friend from work and her friends mom and sister. I let her her go. To come to find out later on she didn't go with them. She went with the lesbian she works with and her girlfriend. I was so pissed off. But again at the stake of losing my wife I let it go. She claimed she wanted to go so bad and if she told me who she was really going with. I would of said no. Which is right. Yes I would of said no. Specially when I almost lost her lesbianism already. We fought but got past it. Next about a week later she asks if she can go to the beach with a friend from work. The same one she was supposed to go to Hershey park with. I said sure go for it. But then I just got weird feelings during the time she was there and we were texting each other. So I asked her to send me a picture of the beach. She sent me pics. But there were pics from google I had seen already prior to me asking her. We got into a fight as she driving home claims she don't love me anymore and wants a divorce. Then I find out she went with other lesbian friends she met through the lesbian friend she works with. Somehow we got through that also and she just used the same claim she used when going to Hershey park. That if she told me really who she was going with I wouldn't of let her. Yea and that's probably right. With the way she had been acting. Which isn't my fault. After that we got over it worked things out and continued on. Now she's very secretive of her phone. And her Facebook. I asked her for her passwords to things like Facebook. So I can keep an eye out for stuff behind my back. Well I found a few things. A pic of my wife and the original lesbian that this all started over of my wife kissing her on the cheek. Not much but something. Then I find this post to the lesbians friends friend. Saying happy birthday you sexy beast. She had never talked that way to another guy. She claimed that it was jus like a slapstick comment and nothing was meant by it. I call bullshit. You can't tell joking that well through text if joking really isn't implied. Then through Facebook messenger I found this guy she was talking to with him saying how he used to have a crush on my wife and wished they had gotten together. Then another conversation when he and his wife broke up and wanted to do what him and my wife talked about. While this was all going on my wife was loling al over the place. But yet she told me she took care of it. She also told me that they didn't talk about anything. He did. So fine again I let it go. And about a week later she decided to delete Facebook and claims that it was for me. And didn't want anymore distractions in our marriage. I was grateful. But at the same time I wondered if she gotten rid of it to try and hide anything else she didn't want me to find. So that was nice atleast knowing a lot might stop. She doesn't have direct connection that I know of from the other lesbians. Cept the one she worked with. So this past Friday the 23rd. I almost lost my wife again. And because of Jenn. The original lesbian that my wife started all this shit because of. I found out she had been talking to her by going through her phone records. Which she got pissed about I went left work to go home and talk about this to find out she's gone. I ask her where she is. And she is at her mothers place of business. And proved it with a pic which was fine. But I knew she wasn't gonna stay there long. As we kept talking through text she started to not talk much and just kept ignoring me text after text once in a while she's write i don't know what to say. I don't wanna talk about it. I was calm as could be. Taking nice. Asking her to come home and talk to me. But nope she would tell me she doesn't know if she wants to come home. That she doesn't love me anymore. I knew she was at this Jenns house. And she did say she was. I pleaded and pleaded please come home. Tak to me. I don't wanna lose my wife. You gotta talk to me. We've given so much to this marriage to end it like this. And she stood her ground through the entire time. Till a bit later and I got her to come home and talk. She told me I'm just helping her move some furniture I'll be on my way shortly. I was happy I was ok very good thank you. So about a half hour later she did text me. Ok on my way home. I said ok. She gets home. And sits on the bed I'm in my computer chair. And we both I look at her and she looks at me. And I go to get up and I could tell she is gonna start to cry. And sure enough she did. I went over to her and held her. As she held me. Saying she was sorry for everything it was all her fault. Just kept apologizing and wanted to forget the whole thing and move on. Asked if we could fix this and move on. I wanted nothing more then that so I said absolutely. I went to go in to kiss her. And I got turned away. Buy the smell of vagina on her face. I swear that's what it was. I was shocked. I was stunned like and she was just telling me that's not it. I haven't been anywhere near a vagina. And that disgusts me. I wouldn't do that. Now up until recently she always did say she was disgusted by it and couldn't stand it. Did not like anything about the vagina. Couldn't stomach the smell and whatever. But recently with all the lesbian stuff going on it does kinda seem weird and it fits atleast to me. She just says no absolutely not she would never cheat on me. She wasn't raised like that. Stuff like that. Normally I'd believe her. But as you can tell there's been a lot to sway me from that belief. And she never wants to talk about it. Just wants to forget it all and says it'll never happen again. I feel she don't wanna talk about it cause there is something there she hasent told me. I really do. And I'm very hurt by this I do feel she has cheated. And I don't know where to turn or what to do I'm really at a loss in my life. And I'm level headed guy. And I'm really hurt here. There's other things that I forgot to mention also things like her all the sudden keeping up with her landscaping so to speak. Um I asked her about it. She accidentally say she doesn't like going down there when it's not take. Care of. I said "she"? My wife just says I didn't say that. When yes she did. She does stumble on words from time to time so I do take that as it just could of been a mess up. I don't know where to turn and I'm looking for help here. What do I do?

What's the deal?

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You need to look at your wife's actions and not listen to her words. Regardless if she has cheated on you or not, she has lied to you and her explanations do not 'stack up'. You are at the stage where you are asking her for pics to prove where she is and this is because her actions are eroding the trust of your 7 year relationship together.

You need to sit her down and get her to tell you straight to your face just what is going on and ask her why she thinks her behavior is OK. Why is she jeopardizing her marriage and why is she betraying trust of it? You can be easy going with her and let her go out after she asks you, but if she continues to behave the way she has been you will continue to doubt her more and more. You want to trust her but she's not giving you much opportunity to do so because she doesn't want to discuss her actions with you.

Listen to your instinct and let your common sense have a say, rather than letting your heart talk to you. You state that you are hurt and hurting but ask yourself why would your wife of 7 years let you be hurt or hurt you with her actions? Why isn't she keeping your heart safe?

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Stop fooling yourself, the only way your wife could have gotten the smell of vagina on her face is because she had her face on a vagina.

And now all of a sudden "she's maintaining her landscape"...Stop ignoring the obvious. I believe your wife will just cover her tracks better, and will continue to see her lesbian friends because she knows that lying to you is easy.

This is a red flag. Suggest you both get some counseling to get through some of your trust issues.

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Thanks for your responses. I really appreciate it. I just don't know what to do. I try to talk to her she just gets mad at me and doesn't wanna talk about saying things like. I thought this was done. Or you've gotta be kidding me. When I ask her something. Like when I keep asking her if she's cheated. She tells me it's always gonna be no. Cause I wouldn't do that to you. But she still gets mad if I continue to ask about it. She say it's not gonna change. No is no.

But yea. I see all the red flags. I haven't been oblivious to them. I've just I guess sorta giving her the benefit of the doubt. Cause I don't want to lose my marriage if there is even the slightest chance she is telling me the truth. I'm very good at figuring things out. Like when I smelt the vagina on her face. I said it right away. She also stunk of massive perfume. I asked wtf is that smell. She claimed it was just pizza. And. I yea I don't think so. That's vagina. She said no it certainly isn't. I haven't been near a vagina. I said what was the cover up of perfume for then. She said their place stinks of cat urine. And that's all she could smell while there. She also said if I wanted to cover up something like vagina. Don't you think I would of had a mint or something Cleaned my mouth. Brushed my teeth. I said yea I guess it's a good point. Unless you just forgot to do so. Minutes later she was in the bathroom brushing her teeth. I said why are you doing that if it's just pizza. She said well you said it smelt like vagina. I just don't want you smelling that. I just want the truth to come out. I believe I know the truth. I just want to get her to tell me is all. And I don't know how to.

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"Like when I smelt the vagina on her face"

Yeah. Unless Pizza Express have just newly brought out Vagina flavour, that one's a bit of a no-brainer, eh!

"Minutes later she was in the bathroom brushing her teeth"

Yeah. Because, like she'd just said, she needed to, to get the smell of vagina off her chops. So that you couldn't have a second-check sniff. (She's not too bright, is she. There again, why would she be, considering she's only 9?)

Your *emotionally* ex- but *practically* still-wife can get as mad as she likes but that still doesn't alter the fact of her RESPONSIBILITIES towards you as her still-husband as do not cease until the CONTRACT is (legally) nulled and voided. Plus there is such a thing as love in-memoriam. So where is it, then?

Her love in-memoriam smells like WHAT NOW? Cat's urine, apparently. (Is that a euphemism? ;-p)

But here's the key word: still. She is not your for-life partner/teammate and hasn't been for quite a while, despite actually upping and leaving you isn't half as easy as she'd thought it would be in her head. Logistically.

It's called lilypad-leaping. Or, this case, -straddling.

If you imagine you and she live on a lilypad in a murky, cold-water pond and other potential partners live/float around on others, then what she's been doing is secretly 'rowing'/agitating the water with her backfoot to either bring hers and your pad closer to those others or theirs to yours. This is so that she can ready herself for a leap that carries no risk of falling into the cold water, seeing as how she never learned how to swim (be single and live on her own).

Some pad inhabitants have proven not as suitable as imagined, requiring her to remove her foot back to your joint pad and then repeat the 'rowing' exercise all over again in another direction.

You're already divorced. Or she is. But she's unwilling to let you know that that's where you stand. Why? Because then YOU might make a decision, rather than it being only her prerogative. Your reaction might (er, will) be decide to push her OFF the pad before she's manoeuvred into place a suitably permanent or semi-perm pad upon which to safely fall. Or you might leap from the joint pad onto another (be it occupied or empty) yourself, leaving her [wait for it] ALONE. Not only alone but now no longer with the faux appeal and allure to add to her natural collection, of being exciting 'stolen fruit', meaning, she could be alone and lonely on what was once your joint pad for a considerable length of time.

Getting mad (in such a way to convey she might end the marriage because of it) is just her way of blackmailing you emotionally into ceasing the inquisition.

You don't NEED to grill her (aside from to know her reasons and get your 'day in court', including sentancing her), you know perfectly well what's going on. Why, will come later. If not from her then naturally as your mist or blizzard clears.

But (ref the above brackets) here's what struck me, time and time again when reading: Let her go, let her go, said okay despite, let her (etc.).

Yes, your run of actions did indeed say, 'I don't mind if you leave me full-stop or for A. N. Other'. Were you testing her? Or is this current (understandable and natural) obsession with getting detailed answers more about your manly pride plus sense of justice and you worrying about your looking extra bad as a 'failed' husband due to it possibly appearing to others that you put her off not just you, personally, but MEN ALTOGETHER?

Change your thinking: the fact you failed is because you met a woman who - as style and rate of adultering shows - either wasn't at the time aware or was but suppressed the fact she was into (or more into) women, not men. You couldn't have succeeded if you'd tried, therefore. You succeeded at failure. Read that again, AND LET GO THIS MEAN AND CRUEL, SELFISH, SELF-OBSESSED, SPOILED BABY so that you can trot sooner rather than later up the Grieving path to Soulmateville where starts the path to TogetherForeverVille (which is what you should have done in the first place, all things allowing back then)!

Trust me, by the time you're there (- when, not if, because it's a human path with a destination that trials like this shunt you onto) you and your true soulmate will positively raise a genuine glass of abject gratitude to the memory of this (cough) woman for the fact that she finally, FINALLY!, revealed her true colours as UNCONSCIONABLE as activated the elephant climbing out from under the table and sh*tting all over your marital pad, where not only could you any longer deny its existence but started losing your footing (resulting in injuries) on all the disgustingly slimy excrement everywhere.

In your hell-bent bid for your chance to play righteous judge and jury (sentance - hanging), you're doormat-ing yourself. And this - trust me - is what will have you retrospectively cringing over for years to come, not the fact that a lesbian duped you into marrying her (, Ross).

The fact you're so lesbian-friendly is actually a HUGE compliment to you for what it says regarding your perfectly masculine-natural feminine side being given ample rein and how that - assuming your soulmate's the same with her masculine side - will smoothen (is that a word? Is now) yours and your eventual and inevitable new woman's journey up that lovely path.

In summary - don't keep trying to get her to tell the truth. YOU tell it. Via your actions. It's called leave/chuck her out. And then - considering she's so selfishly determined not to tell you the truth, the whole truth and nothing but - she can prove her innocence by appeal, instead, can't she. ;-) That's called Boxing Clever, thariz. It's far less taxing and, in the process, self-prostrating. After all, she had chance after chance/trial after trial to prove her innocence yet rejected all of them. Let's see if she rejects the mother of all opportunities as well, shall we?

(50p please.)

What's the deal?

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I love my wife very much. We've gone through to much Id do anything for that women. I really would. I've already given her anything and everything I've possibly could. And yea I know you guys are right that the feelings aren't mutual. That I don't have that same love in return anymore. And yea it really does hurt. I've seen all the red flags. I know why she says certain things. The lies. I know. I get it. I just don't want to give up when I think it's something that can be fixed. But yet I wonder if fixing would even help it. Just until it happens again.

I don't know. Maybe I should give up on her. Maybe she is to far gone. Like you said with the lily pad maybe she is just testing the waters till she finds something that sticks. And it won't be me. She is still with me. And says she loves me 100% without a doubt that she's fucked up plenty of times. And it won't happen again. Which is fine if that's the case. I love her to much not to forgive her. What I can't stand is not knowing the truth. If it is the truth. She swears by it that it is. I think she's confused doesn't really know what she wants anymore. Maybe a little taste of the taco stand once in a blue moon and thinks that it's ok. Me I'm a big time family dude. And have much loyalty Respect. Honesty and pride within myself to think this could be happening. And don't want to part with it if there is any chance to fix. I know the truth. I know she cheated on me. All the facts are there. I just want her to say it. Idk why. I just do.

The thing is. Is that I think she won't tell me cause she don't know how to answer the why questions.

What's the deal?

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She won't talk about it Do you really need that spelled out for you? Cause it's all true. All the lies and everything else. Yea she doesn't love you anymore dude. Need to move on.

What's the deal?

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Oh, it's happening alright. But - Hurts? That, mate, is the understatement of the century! Short of physical murder, this is the worst crime one spouse can deal another!

Well of course you do (love her... or the 'her' you believed she was/couldn't ever lower herself to be). You were given zero warning or indication that you should start to mentally disconnect in preparation, were you. If you had, this wouldn't agonise as much as it does. It was all in secret (albeit with the help of your involuntary denial). So here you are, facing a bolt from the Blue, playing Squashed Baby Tomato ("ketchup!") (- name the Tarantino film!).

But here's the thing: So s/he loves me, but WHAT loves me? An adulterer? An EL-O-EL-AY Lola? A serial killer? WHOOPIE-DOO? Get my point?

That you WOULD do anything for her and her knowing it, is precisely what she's been using as per insurance policy. So - great - you love her, as in, invest in her and all she's now doing in return is using it to her and only her advantage. An advantage that KILLS YOU! Or certainly comatoses you for a while. What YOU want - what anyone wants and needs is someone who, registering a deposit made by you in your love bank (Bank Of Wife) is, like you, so appreciative and fixated on you both growing old and Grey together that it spurs her into making one into Bank Of Husband. She, on the other hand, is taking your investment and trying to spend it on someone else! Which is bankrupting you!

So is she intrinsically this snake-like or is she having some sort of mid-life- or latent identity-crisis? That's for her to know and you to find out. That's why I'm saying - as your only remaining remit, given her refusal to in any way cooperate - to put that to the test. One you - YOU - NEED a separation period (to get out of her 'forcefield' so that your heart accordingly bows out and leaves it to your head and survival instinct) and, two, you need an indisputable litmus reading. Walking away or being SEEN as walking away is not 'giving up'. Giving up is giving up, under some or other guise, including 'walking away'. In other words, INTENTION IS EVERYTHING. You can walk away as a winning tactic and show of strength (and SELF-respect).

Take yourself away. Put a firework up her bum and her on the backfoot (for a change). Then, with HER having to be the one to beg back, you're suddenly in a position from which to set terms and conditions.... like, We see a counsellor to get this sorted and put firmly into the round filing cabinet named Past & Mistakes OR you won't see me ever again (except in divorce court). "You wannit, you wannit? If you wannit you can have ALL of it, not cherry-pick. If you don't want all of it - EFF OFF AND LET ME FIND SOMEONE WHO DOES!"

This is Poker. Shouldn't be. But it is.

Turn the tables and quick-sharpish about it. I reiterate, then you'll SEE whether she's been keeping one foot on your joint pad out of nothing more than convenience and life disruption avoidance, including financial, or whether what she still wants is *you, just for you*.

Because - define love. It's easy to be convinced by cupboard-love. And that doesn't necessarily just mean the tangible/material, either. It can mean, they love how it feels to receive love from you and that's about it. It's a selfish love. Or rather, it's how selfish people love. Or rather, it's love tainted by (because it 'rides' out on) their innate or issue-based toxicity. But even cupboard-love can be a two-way street (certainly where superficiality is concerned) and I see even that going only one way and for quite a while, don't you?

I love you (in the universally understood, healthy sense) is as I love you *does*. If they're doing 'I don't give two hoots about you' again AND AGAIN?... DESPITE YOU'VE SAID, 'OW, STOP IT, THAT HURTS!'...?

And there's nothing 'confusing', regardless of whether you don't know what you want to achieve or not as your end objective, about knowing you're wounding to the core someone you're supposed to at least care about as much as you would a friend, despite you hold the Stop button in your hands. If you're a sane or decent individual and you care about that victim, you press STOP. Why? Because when you genuinely love someone, truly-madly-deeply, seeing them in pain HURTS YOU TOO in terms of your senses, not just the eventual boomeranging called own consequences.

Come on, do the maths.

You're already deifying her. You're trying to give yourself extra reason and motivation using a faux carrot, courtesy of the Rose-tinteds, to try to persuade or claw her back to you. Do you REALLY think a woman who, despite charged by the contract to (as Manalone put it) protect your heart, won't even let you know what and why this nightmare AT HER HAND is happening to you or when it'll stop full-stop would agree without pressure to attend marriage counselling with you?

She can't be alone. That's your Ace card. In fact, it's your pair of Aces. MAKE her have to be alone AND get sufficiently used to it and THEN see whether she wants to get back into the little rowboat with you. Or whether by then YOU do. *Separation with A View* plus a much-needed leverage tool for finally forcing her to do (play ball) what she shouldn't even have to be forced to do in the first place.

"The thing is. Is that I think she won't tell me cause she don't know how to answer the why questions"

That old chestnut. What if what she were doing was daily cutting your skin with a sharp 12-inch knife, the threat ever present that she could actually push the blade home, into your heart, but, you suspected/were manipulated to suspect, just couldn't (mew-mew) find the words to say why? Would that be all it took to make you sit there and keep taking it? What - until you bled out?

News for you: you already are. For every physical entity in this world there is a psychological equivalent. You are being slashed IN the heart X times per day by a woman who said she loved you and always would and are spurting arterial blood. Again, you need to pay closer attention to what Manalone told you:

"You need to look at your wife's actions and not listen to her words."

I HHHHHATE ice-cream, said the woman who was in the midst of spooning ice-cream into her mouth. I LOVE YOU, said the woman who was in the midst of causing you the worst personal-level pain possible.

She can 'unconfuse' herself in an agonising and self-esteem eroding way on her own time and onto her own pain receptors, not yours.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch: "All the facts are there. I just want her to say it. Idk why. I just do." Answer: because if she admits it then she'll have no way to henceforth avoid having to do all the things that make up for her crime and all the mini-crimes that preceded it (as always do) rather than keep fobbing you off with [wait for it] MERE WORDS.

You're not ready, that's all this is. You will be. You need another cut (a final insult) or time to come out of shock and numbness enough to feel the existing cuts.

I recommend you read the situational godsend that is Mira Kirshenbaum's "Too Good To Leave/Too Bad To Stay". In it, she basically says how, if your spouse cheats on you, never mind asking whether they love you, they don't even LIKE you!

Soz, Baby Tomato. :-(

What's the deal?

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Your a fucking idiot. I would of tossed that bitch a long time ago. What she's doing to you is torture man. Not needed. Like the above poster said. Move along. And do it now. Your only gonna keep getting hurt.

What's the deal?

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"I just don't want to give up when I think it's something that can be fixed"

What are you thinking needs to be "fixed"? She has shown that she has a preference for females. THAT is not going to change.

Until you face that, you are being self-delusional that this marriage can be repaired.

Why are you so afraid of facing the truth?

What's the deal?

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She hasent shown that. Idk what the truth is yet. I'm not going to assume. Yes I believe I know but still I think a 7 year marriage is worth fighting for. Don't you? That's why I'm afraid of facing the truth. I don't want to lose my wife. She's 28. If she has had a preference for women. I think it would have been before now. No? Idk maybe I am delusional.

What's the deal?

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(Patently caring message, SP, but watch your language, pls/ta. ;-))

What's the deal?

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"If she has had a preference for women. I think it would have been before now. No?"

No. People hide themselves or are kept in the closet, sometimes for as long as decades. Some never do come out.

But, yes, a 7 year marriage is worth fighting for...ASSUMING IT *IS* WORTH FIGHTING FOR. That's the difference that makes all the difference as is what you have to eventually work out (or realise) and decide what action, if any, to take.

But, no, you're not delusional. Delusional means fooling yourself despite clear evidence. You can't be delusional if, as you are, you're allowing yourself to consider the real possibilities (despite just not yet ready to settle on or dispute them without enough evidence by *your* standards).

What you are, is in denial. And that's perfectly normal for your stage of the grieving process (Shock & Denial, Anger pending). In fact, it's a good sign. Because if you weren't, there'd frankly have to be something a bit wrong with you.

Maybe the problem' here is, you wanting to grieve out of the relationship whilst you're still bodily in it? Has this been your normal past style of ending things/letting them end? Are you not so good at deciding to walk unless every part of you wants to and is ready, combined with a tenacity that translates to fear of failure and/or being almost completely unused to failure?

Whatever/whichever, I think this is all going too fast for you right now. You've got this chaotic multitude of itty-bitty evidence strewn all over the floor, which is USELESS until you get the chance to place it all in correct and proper order on the evidence table to be capable of making better sense of it all. So I'm going to suggest you take a breather and let your mind catch-up with everything. It will, after all, naturally be incredibly overloaded at the mo.

Bad enough finding yourself headf**ked without adding head-spin on top, eh.

No worries, take your time. :-) If you like, you can try you asking the questions from now on and us mostly just answering them, rather than us TELLING you anything?

What's the deal?

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PS: And you're not an idiot, you're a limpet. And that, assuming whatever you're attaching to IS a genuine rock, is a very, very good thing. It means, whether this rock is crumbling (due to being coral doing a good impression of a rock) thus can't last and you get shunted onto the path that leads automatically to a more genuine article (or *the* genuine article), or only the OUTER layer of the rock was coral and THAT'S what's crumbling (meaning you just have to let go for a while until you re-attach) - YOU, my friend, are not one of those people who are going to die alone. :-)

This is not a death. It's just a fallen tree on your personal path that needs chainsawing into logs and humping to the side so that you can re-proceed. Just FEELS like a death. Especially if it's a really big tree that blots out the sky as it comes down and makes a tremendous impact, having narrowly missed you. That would put *anyone* into shock. But especially a limpet whom, as such, simply isn't used to getting disturbed and having to shift or change position.

You'll see.

What's the deal?

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No it's never been like this before. Before her I was alone for a while. But I think we just ended it. I called for it to end. I'm sick of being kicked around. And having my heart ripped out. She wanted to separate for a bit and let her figure her shit out. I told her I did t want to wait around for her just to come the the conclusion that she wants to end it anyways. It's not fair for me. So now I think it is over. I'm free of the ball and chain that I didn't want. She still swears nothing happened. And that our downfall had a lot to do due my "snooping". Phone logs. Asking for pics. She can't take it. When she says she's being honest. But I don't know that that's wh I have to ask. She doesn't understand that everything I've been through is because of her or me. I didn't do this. Nor did I want this. It kills me. Really it does.i offered a marriage counselor she didn't want that says she can't talk about her feelings. She just wants to separate. A big thanks to soulmate by the way for sticking it out with me. You do put a lot into you responses and shows you know your what your talki and about. I thank you. But again I think this is where I call my end. 2 months shy of seven years. It sucks. It really does.

What's the deal?

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It sounds very much like you've just saved yourself from being made a fool out of a second time (and worse). ANY sane person can see her claims don't add or stack up nor align with how an innocent person or one who wanted to save the relationship would react and behave. So "bravo!" to you.

Anyway, who *cares* what she thinks, pretends and claims? One wouldn't let an alcoholic sit there diagnosing herself and writing her own prescription, let alone pay what she reckoned or would have people believe any credence, so why do it with an adulterer? You just focus on their habitual actions and behaviour. Because THEY, especially as a collective, are what do the diagnosing.

For example, that gumph about being unable to talk about her feelings. Would that be her answer if you needed an emergency plumber? Would she say, 'Oh, no, we're not calling a PLUMBER, I couldn't POSSIBLY talk about the leak or what caused it. Better we just do nothing and see what happens...or abandon the house altogether'? Is that would she'd suddenly have you believe? Funny, that. Because if she did, you'd know just as you do now, that she had to have some reason or other for badly not wanting the leak FIXED and without any unnecessary delay.

Some reason (the most common one): If the counsellor should (er, would) see through her lies to the shameful truth, even without directly or deliberately (whoops-a-daisy!), even subtly, letting on to you, you'd know. You'd be able to tell (and realise you couldn't *both* be wrong). Plus counsellor equals things getting addressed and fixed.... equalling, no call any more for a Separation, meaning, no COVER EXCUSE for getting the golden opportunity to test-drive more thoroughly, relaxedly and less hurriedly (away from prying eyes, interrogative lips and the need to be ultra careful) the other lilypad and its debauched, family-co-smashing hostess. Oh, and gone her chance to keep you wanting to keep the gate open, just in case things with mistress go Pleugh! Which they're bound to do, whether they react by ending the relationship or staying and endlessly suffering. (The mistress is not your problem, though (she's someone else's); she could have been anyone with low morals and social responsibility. Just thought I'd mention that in case you might misdirect any later onset of anger at the wrong and futile target.) She wouldn't want to get any kind of confirmation via counselling of being bang-slap in the wrong when in a mindset that's desperate to scrape the barrel in terms of finding any plausible-sounding justification (to said return access purposes).

Your ex2b would have gained the opportunity to basically sit there playing Eenie-Meenie-Minie-Mo with your very sanity and future, whilst you meanwhile endured purgatory, aka horrid Limbo, as you waited indeterminately for relief, either in the form of a reprieve or the guillotine mercifully coming down.....just some light at the end of the tunnel ...or even to know there WERE any light...or even a tunnel! This Way Up- no, THIS Way Up- no, This- no, This.......... KER-BOOM! Your work would have suffered, your health, your other relationships... you wouldn't have been capable of functioning normally. This way you can start to deal and heal as well as, most importantly, naturally detach via lack of interaction towards total objectivity of judgements and decisions. (Do insist on No Contact, won't you?)

So, spoken like a typical cheater. And dealt with like a typical survivor (- you'll be just fine, Sinblade). Same venue, same play, same plot, same number of acts (and intermission), roughly same script and dialogue despite petty variations in the tiny details... just different actors (perp & victim or victim turned perp & innocent victim).

It won't kill you, though. What it kills is not you, just any bona-fide *weaknesses* in you (as well as calls for a sifting and dealing with all related past baggage). That's the good news, the product of which you'll benefit later on down this presently agonising line when you're back to being capable of even *giving* a sh*t about things like future benefits and opportunities and major life improvements, including a seriously upgraded, new relationship (that has every open chance at lasting).

Back to the ranch...

You think you ended it, but you're not sure? Does that mean you "whoops" forgot to lock the gate after slamming it shut or she somehow managed to prevent it?

Well, of course you're sick of being kicked around. AND having your heart ripped out. What did YOU do - deliberately run-over both her parents in your 4x4?! (Adultery is not the product of a bad relationship or bad phase, anyway. It's the product of the cheater's dysfunctional thinking.) But that act of ending it could be a 'Braxton Hicks' ending - just an initial limbering-up attempt. Or it might not. But let's see... Time and your confidence in your convictions (and/or whether she tries coming back, genuinely on her knees or doing a great impression simply out of her need not to face loneliness, independence and homelessness, will tell.

But you did the right thing. In fact, the only thing, WHICHEVER way you look at it. Now, with her out of your hair and no more lies being constantly added to your emotional in-tray, you'll start to make your way through its existing workload, top-to-bottom, and start to see truths or extents of such that you didn't even know were there. This is how it goes. And that's because we minimise and deny the worst of the relationship. We have to - not least in order to be capable of maintaining the sincere wedding vows we made to ourselves, god (if you're religious) and to all witnessing family and friends. Vows we now realise we should never have made without having given the spouse a far longer test-drive as well as under a greater variation of climates and road conditions. People marry too quickly and THAT'S why the divorce rate has risen. (MacMarriage.)

If the cheating spouse is at least HUMAN (if not decent) this typical test-driving holiday- sorry, "separation", might well have been peppered with massive waves of guilt. But put it this way: not nearly enough to actually cease their crime and come home. They have ways for dealing with that guilt. Not by UNDOING their crime (oh no, why deprive themselves?), but by rewriting history and your personality, often to the point of recounting the marriage like some horror story to suit their need for self and public justification... (Demonizing, it's called)... Suddenly, you were actually HELL TO LIVE WITH as positively DEMANDED they cheat on you (poor them!) for the sake of their sanities. And yet what they and their allies always fail to remember when entertaining such nonsense is, pouring acid onto a poorly entity or slitting its throat is not generally understood to be how one heals it ("a-duh-a-duh-a-duuuh?"). No, the justification has nothing to do with their consciences, it's merely a bid to make *themselves* feel better. So that they can continue their unconscionable act more comfortably.

They also, cheater and mistress, come to each other's AID on that score by telling each other reassuring lies. For prime example (and thank god you two didn't have kids!), pretending their respective primary-school-aged kids are actually teenagers (which makes you wonder what on earth they say to each other once the truth emerges). Or, as I say, re-painting your personality, mentality, behaviour and quality of the marriage. The listener would conclude your EX had been the one tearing her hair out or crying herself to sleep, year after year, meanwhile trying constantly to get you to address the marital problems before finally throwing up her hands in defeat. And yet we see for ourselves, now, how so-called keen she was to get help, don't we. Pff!, is the answer to that one.

Furthermore, if she 'can't talk about her feelings' then what on earth made her think she was qualified to be anyone's relationship or marriage partner in the first place (what a crock).

So, you, Mr Switched-On, obviously listened to your gut in the end - courtesy of hearing her refuse point-blank to even try a proven fixing tool - and have just saved yourself from being treated like second best, a gullible fool and mere safetynet for in case her choice had turned out to have been a bad move, creating the need to quick-sharpish find another home and sucker to go to. Unless, of course, she finds another, new lilypad to jump to. A lot of them DO cheat again - whether on the mistress or the next partner. It worked - FOR THEM. They seemingly *didn't* self-combust on the spot. Thus, once crossed, jumping back and forth over that massive taboo line is no longer any great shakes. So it gets repeated.

This is one of the ways in which Fate gets them. So as not to feel like the wrongdoer they are they tend to be automatically drawn to other low-lifes (no unflattering contrasts, see).... and then get treated accordingly. Down, round, down, PLEUGH!, they go. Chronically unhappy and dissatisfied (plus incapable, now, of believing their *own* words and promises, let alone anyone else's!). You, meanwhile - now free from the source of your dis-ease - slowly but steadily (or quickly in your case?) recover and re-improve, like a pheonix rising from the ashes. Your daily life and romantic life go from strength to strength. But years later, if you bother looking or making enquiries, you find the cheater's life is still a train-wreck or worse than ever. (You'll see.)

If you swear this woman was, prior to this, a good and loving wife (to your good and loving husband), and aren't still just minimising, then she is definitely having a BIG crisis lately... and whatever known or unknown stress she's been under, be it a recent event or a belated mental knock-on or epiphany over past events as dredge up old, hidden issues as lead to this wall-bouncing (or both), has drip-by-drip built up to such an extent without outlet, that her normal, more decent attitudes and thinking (if you're sure she didn't just fake those?) have gone KER-BOOM! and left only the selfish animal in her place. And her animal is a shark... mercenary... empathy, even sympathy, just not there (because that's a human, sophisticated characteristic). She is literally temporarily insane. (They don't call it mid-life *crisis* for nothing, you know.)

Define temporarily, though. You've got a life to lead, you're still young. You can't help her, that's for herself and/or a professional. And she wouldn't accept any offers or attempts to help anyway, not from you - as you've just witnessed for yourself. This is altered states.... DefCon 1.... a self-manufactured drug induced psychosis that takes hold sooooo slowly and imperceptibly, she doesn't think there's anything wrong or different with her. It's you - YOU'VE gone mad, YOU'RE the insane one! (And if she ever actually levels that typical, self-justifying, delusional accusation at you, I suggest your answer be only: Well, thank god for that, that's very reassuring to know.)

Now to her other lie: Your downfall was your own fault for snooping on her? Another old smoke-screen-attempt chestnut. I doubt very much that *I'd* experience any such 'downfall' if right now I went and "snooped" through the mobile of my Other Half (the clue being in the moniker). One, I wouldn't find anything worrying or suspicious and, two, we 'carelessly' share all gadgets anyway, have done from the start, and same for bank statements and correspondence (his idea initially, to my great joy, in order to start as we meant to go transparently-on). Nay, your snooping was her fault for acting effing suspicious yet refusing to reassure or proving those suspicions wrong and unfounded...which is what you can't WAIT to do if you're innocent, note. Because not only do you get to take the high road via vindication ("told ya!"), but background appreciate how with every disproving of their suspicion/proving of your innocence comes an upping of trust and sense of safety in your beloved, thus relaxation and contentedness, which has a direct, positive knock-on effect that you yourself reap the benefit from: They purr constantly? You constantly get a 'lick' on the lips as keeps YOU purring...back, forth, up, back, forth, UP, goes the positive interactional loop. BERBOM. Not rocket science.

You 'snooped' because you had to - for the sake of your mental welfare then survival - because you could tell she was deliberately keeping from you the information to which any partner is entitled in order to always protect themselves emotionally and psychologically (especially when they sense danger). One shouldn't *have* to protect oneself anyway, not to that extent - they're supposed to be doing that for you (as you do for them). That's why it's CALLED 'I've got your back'. Plus it's obviously in the interests of a well-meaning, other-loving innocent to always leave their pockets hanging out or at least instantly play ball if ever asked to empty them. The exceptions include, those who introduce this false taboo at the outset blindly, just because "everyone else does it", meaning, it's "just something you do", whereas, if they gave it any deeper thought they might realise how that type of privacy doesn't belong in a truly-madly-deeply soulmate-dom. It just creates room for potential doubt and suspicion whenever any insecurity hits, so why even GO there if you don't have to?

Your wife is angering me now (does it show? LOL). For mentally being a lazy-a*se, refusing to tap into her reserves of strength, rather than bouncing violently off the walls onto you, leaving you visibly wounded, but refusing to stop like someone who CARED ONE IOTA about your feelings and welfare. She can't even make the effort to make her lies sound at least halfway convincing. Too much like hard work, eh, or not enough incentive. She should have sat you down the minute she realised she was (allegedly) unhappy enough to stupidly choose straying, or *demanded* you both attend counselling.

So why didn't she? Probably because (little-known fact) a lot of the time, there doesn't even HAVE to be anything wrong per se. An intrinsically weak and selfish person just fancies the notion (or quick-fix) of having their cake and eating it, feels somehow entitled/a special case, believing themselves "too intelligent" to get caught out or too safe to suffer any real consequences because you've shown for too long that you're crazy about them (which must mean you're desperate and a doormat), ....or is a sociopath with no regard for consequences. Indeed, the news just in claims - *with* substantiation - that cheating on your spouse is (not exclusively) a symptom of being personality disordered, which mild but anti-relationship illness is nowadays positively RIFE (yikes!). 1 in 6 when I last looked.

In summary: Me-Me-Me + Mind over matter. I.e., 'I don't mind and you don't matter'.

Thank god she dealt you that vital Final Insult as instantly tipped your scales, eh? Be proud that you stood up for yourself. You'll remember that one, long after you've forgotten this whole nasty [scuse pun] affair. And don't wobble over the decision you've just taken either; remember that nothing short of death is ever final. Not that I recommend you undo it. That would take real effort of persuasion and PROOF of sincere regret, including via copious, serious endeavours to make up for it.

How are you feeling today?

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