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I'm having an affair...

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Relationship advice Hi all. Im new here and really need some sort of advice or opinions from some people.
Ive been with my husband for 10yrs married for 5. Im happy hes a good man, a wonderful father and does everything he can to make me happy.
And then theres my friend. (Single and male)

Circumstances brought us together shortly after i met my husband, we hit it off and became firm friends.
This friendship went along nicely until a few years ago when we crossed lines we shouldnt have crossed, but we stopped it and we tried to stay away from each other but not having him in my life wasnt an option for either of us.

But anyway we seemed to have got passed it until a couple of months ago when we ended up in each others arms again. This has been happening every couple of weeks and is really wonderful. It feels like the most natural thing in the world. I do know its wrong and it makes me a really bad person, but i love them both very much and in completely different ways. I do question what is in it for my friend...hes single handsome clever funny and really could have anyone so why me? It isnt just about sex of all the time weve spent together over the years that has been a tiny though wonderful percentage of it. I guess im wondering if anyone here has been in the same situation and how it panned out.

I'm having an affair...

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Hi! I'm married just like you and having the same problem just like you.. The only difference we have is that my friend he is not single.
He had been together with his gf for a long time like 9 years. I've been together with my husband for 11 years now, marrried 7 years.

We met each other 10 years ago (me and my friend) and then we didnt had any contact until he came to visit (he lives in another country) us 4 years ago. We kind of ended up in bed. We had this attraction to each other that I cannot explain. We just click whenever we meet. I love my husband, he is the best guy in the whole world, he makes me happy and always makes me laugh. He knows that me and my friend like each other and are attracted to each other. He knows that me and my friend ended up having sex and he forgave me. He don't want anybody else but me and my husband loves me very much and he forgave me even though I've done a terrible thing.

I don't want to loose my husband and I am trying to really ignore and stay away from my friend. Tryng not to contact him but he always send me messages. Telling me he misses me and he likes me a lot and that he is longing for me. I've aske him if it's just sex, but he told me it's more than that.

I don't knwo if I shall believe him, but the whole situation really makes me feel down. Because I do think of him so often and long to see him everyday.
He told me today that his gf wants to have a baby. This broke my heart. I suppose to be happy for them, right? Me and husband are trying to have a baby but my body just isn't ready yet.

I feel jealous about his gf. I somehow.. wants him for me. only me.. this makes me feel terrible because I know I am cheating on my husband in worser way. Having feelings for someone is worser than sleeping with someone. I don't know what to do.. I hope we can both move on and everything will be fine. I know me and my friend will never end up together. it's too many people involve.. so the best thing to do relaly is that if we forget each other..

The problem is.. I can't let go, I've tried so many times.. gosshhh what to do? what to do?

I'm having an affair...

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Try 'the right and only decent thing', the pair of you.

Nobody who claims to love someone and to know what love is, would make such an wholly unforced, gobsmackingly selfish choice (it is never 'a mistake' or basis for claiming victimhood!), knowing full well they're going to utterly traumatise and devastate - possibly for life - their supposed soulmate - innocent and undeserving at that - the person who's supposed to mean the most to them than *anybody* else on the planet, past or present, with pain great enough to, in enough cases, make suicide a more tempting option than try to cope with the 'un-cope-able', non-stop agony, day after day after month after half year after year after year.... (I know. I've held many a betrayee's hand as they try to somehow stay sane amid the living nightmare and headf*ck their 'lovers' have carelessly chosen to put them through.)

Just *finding* oneself attracted to another person is signal enough that the marriage isn't right for you or finally needs proper tending to, or that you have skewed ideas and attitudes that need 'recalibration' (counselling), let alone proceeding towards acting on those feelings.

Yet, *knowing* what even small children know - proceed, you did...

Maybe this will help:


"As someone who works every day trying to save marriages that are rocked by an affair, I’ve often thought that somehow there is a disconnect between the Disloyal Spouse thinking “Yes I understand that it hurt you but I was hurt too” and the true understanding of what it is like for the Loyal Spouse when they first find out. Speaking as someone who understands both sides, I can also say that no matter what adjectives a Loyal Spouse may choose to describe it (like “devastating” or “heartbreaking”) there just are not words to explain the bomb that’s been dropped and all the harm that’s been done. Language is insufficient to convey the full depth of it and it certainly feels as if the Disloyal doesn’t “get it.” I’ve often wished there was some way to communicate to a Disloyal what it’s like to hear your spouse is having an affair, and yet every different method or wording I’ve tried has fallen short…

…until today.

Dear Hubby and I are taking classes to become certified nouthetic counselors in addition to our marriage coaching. If you’re wondering, the term “Nouthetic” comes from the Greek verb “noutheteo” (or the noun “nouthesis”) and means “to admonish, to warn, to teach or to counsel.” The word is found in numerous passages of Scripture and describes the manner in which we are to counsel and help other Christians. Biblical (nouthetic) Counseling seeks to change the heart, not just alter behavior (Mk. 7:21-23; Prov. 4:23). One of our classes was given by a man who is a law enforcement chaplain and his class was basically how to tell if it is an urgent situation, an emergency, or a crisis…and what to expect in a crisis situation. For example, often the person appears disoriented, becomes hypersensitive or confused, has poor concentration, may shake or shiver, and might go into shock. It was during this class that I heard an example that hit so close to home that I realized it was very similar to the shock one experiences when you hear about the affair for the first time.

Your 17 year old gets his driver’s license and asks you for the car keys to go to the football game. He’s going to meet his friends there, but he will not be driving any of them in the car and they don’t plan to go out afterward, so you trust him and give him the keys. He’s responsible and returns home in a timely manner, and pretty soon you have faith in his maturity. One day he calls and says there’s been a minor fender bender, but no one is injured and information has been exchanged. There’s a small ding in the trust and it’s urgent but still–he handled it well and these things do happen.

A year goes by with no incident and this time the hospital calls. There has been an accident and your son was in a car accident; but he just broke his leg and the other driver was at fault. This is an emergency and is serious, but again all things considered, car accidents do occur…injuries do occur…

Then comes the day you give your son the keys and he says he’ll be home at 11pm, but midnight,1am, 2am, roll around and he doesn’t answer his cell phone. You’re worried sick and wonder what happened. At 3am you get a knock on the door and see two uniformed men, one with a chaplains badge on your porch and you know….

…and that moment right there is what it’s like to discover your spouse is having an affair. That immediate “NOOOOOOO!” and the world dropping out from under your feet. Everything you loved and lived for is dead, and the initial numbness and disbelief are quickly overshadowed with an overwhelming feeling of hopelessness and loss. The pain of hearing your spouse is having an affair has been reported as being greater than a spouse or child dying, and having been there, I’d agree that’s a true statement. So next time you’re thinking “…I know I hurt you but I hurt too…” just remember the two uniformed officers at the door."


Love your husbands? Well, I'd hate to see what you'd do to them if you hated their guts?


Did it help? In case not, try this:

"hes single handsome clever funny and really could have anyone so why me?"

Because you're "happily" married with presumably no need or inkling to leave your husband thus unlikely to press your aider-abetter for commitment, making you highly convenient as a source of romantic perks for none of the usual 'work'. (Immoral, exploitative and selfish is not the same as clever, fyi. And 'the devil' does not give early warnings, least of all via ugliness of face.)

"Tryng not to contact him but he always send me messages."

It's called, block him. That's genuine "trying". Willpower and self-discipline.

"I've aske him if it's just sex, but he told me it's more than that."

Well, what *else* is he going to say? - "Oh, ya, sure - you're just a free and very convenient source of sex and fun for only as long as I need it, PS cheers, luv!"?

The difference is, these two men owe your spouses *nothing* and care *nothing* for them and their feelings and states of mind, past, present or future.

...Or this:

Truth outs. When, not If. A 24/7 liar is basically someone stood in the sea, trying to keep an inflated football held at arms' length under the surface. No-one can keep that up for very long... even less if the next wave or shift in current knocks them or the ball off-balance before their arms and hands (or mind) tire or something distracts their attention (or whatever uncontrollable force or event that beats pure time to it). Usually when the ball 'escapes', it shoots up at the rate of knotts, smacking very painfully straight into your face.


There is no solution now. There is only confessing and taking your punishment willingly on the chin in the hope of getting a reprieve or early parole. Damage-limitation.

You live and learn.

But how *anything* can feel 'wonderful' when you know what you're doing is simultaneously stabbing your special person through the heart, again and again, beats me.

However, in the final analysis, the people you're hurting the most severely and FOREVER, are yourselves. Think about it. Or read this:


"Romantic Infidelity

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continue living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate—someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own—is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born—any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything. Men in love lose their heads—at least for a while."


Was all of that too harsh? Well, given a choice between someone on a forum giving me a painful reality-slap in order to at least minimise the deep and widespread damage I were doing to myself as well as my loved-one (and, via the outward ripples, his parents, my parents, relatives, friends, and same for the other betrayed parties...), and finding out my ultimate beloved were cheating or still cheating on me, I'd take the painful kick up the jacksie any day. ANY day! So you can hate my guts today and appreciate me via the 20-20 of hindsight in one, two, three...five years' time.

I'm having an affair...

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There are many societies that function well with multiple partners, so I can see your point of view. Our culture is set up to be solely monogamous. The problem is that your husband isn't fully informed. It's his right to know what he could possibly be exposed to healthwise. It's also his right know the truth regarding your relationship and to make decisions for his own life based on that information. Secrets and lies will lead to major problems for everyone involved if you all are not fully informed. It's unfair to him as it would be to you if there were others in the picture that you didn't know about. It boils down to ethical morals. You need to let him know whether you keep both the guys there or not. It's your ethical/moral responsibility to inform him of the circumstances.

I'm having an affair...

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Thanks for your responses...
Firstly Brown_Puppy...I do feel for you it's a horrid situation.aybe it makes it easier that he lives a distance away from you... my other man is practically on my doorstep.
Soulmate...whilst I don't disagree with what you say you lost me when i saw the words Christian and bible... (I don't play that game)
Gal... That's the thing I'm finding most difficult...I genuinely feel I want and need both these men in my life and I know in order to do it in any decent way there needs to be full transparency and honest...but how do you broach that subject with your spouse..."I love you. But I love him too and want you both. Is that OK honey?" It's an impossible situation for everyone. Of course I know what I should and ultimately must do but I am so scared of not having much other man in my life. He makes my atoms dance and my soul sing but my husband makes me feel safe and loved.

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(Neither do I). Those weren't my own articles (mine, as I understand it, would have had you and any likeminded 'viewers' writhing on the floor - hence I erred on the side of caution in abstaining). Unlike the writer, being wholly objective and scientific yet open-minded to all things spiritual, I'm somewhere between agnostic and aetheist. The religious reference, however, was totally superfluous to her main point(s). So perhaps you'll have to find another excuse for dismissing it and preserving your state of denial?

For example, 'I don't disagree' is not the same as 'I agree'.

Try this: Imagine if you found out tomorrow morning that your husband has been cheating on you this entire time.

Humans - more so women than men, granted - are naturally monogamous. Fact. Which probably explains beautifully why no-one, on finding out their spouse or steady lover or even a mere promising prospect has cheated on or two-timed them, tends to react like this: "Oh. Never mind, eh.".

Funny, that.

There are piranhas in "Denial".

Strange as it might seem, I'm trying to do you a huge favour. But if you can't see it, then, God-sorry... Father Christmas help you!

I'm having an affair...

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I'm not dismissing what you said or what you copy and pasted. I'm also not in denial. I am aware that I am behaving terribly and my husband doesn't deserve this... I don't need to lie about where I'm going or who I'm seeing, as this guy has been my friend for many years now it is perfectly normal for me to spend time with him. In fact when we stopped spending time together a few years ago that raised questions from others.
I know I need to end things with my friend...Probably the friendship too but I cherish his friendship so much. I know I sound pathetic and selfish, I don't need to be told that. I'm not sitting here thinking that what I'm doing is perfectly acceptable in anyway.

I'm having an affair...

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You did say 'lost me', which means, having closed your mind, but - okay, that's good to hear.

You are, however, still lain on the denial spectrum if you believe that not having to lie about going to see the OM somehow makes things better, considering your poor husband is still being duped for thinking you're merely getting together with a platonic friend each and every time. So it ceased being normal the minute the pair of you changed the nature of your relationship and kept it there, and the lie is just a sustainedly tacit one, meaning, yes you do lie... every single day. Sorry to disappoint on that score, but, actually, no, you sound surprisingly NON-pathetic and selfish, considering. So that's encouraging.

However, I note already you're pre-emptively manoeuvring a blockade into the way of the obvious first-step solution of going Cold Turkey for a while, WHEREAS, I have a superb solution for those potential re-raised eyebrows. Do you want to hear it?

In fact, let's take a moment to ask you what you want to achieve from here, end result-wise. Pretend I'm your fairy godmother with a magic wand, here to grant you up to 5 wishes. Suspend all disbelief regarding what's realistically practicable or not and tell me, in order of priority, what are they?

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Honestly? For myself I dont want to change anything...I'm quite happy to hae my cake and eat it but of course I know that isn't allowed so ideally I'd like to end the non platonic aspect of the friendship but still have my other man in my life. As my best friend as he has been for may years. But I do know that's not the most practical solution.
I dont want my marriage to change and I have no intention of ever telling my husband. I'm not a confessor...and never will be.

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If just reread your post soulmate...
5 wishes...
Here goes...
1..keep my family together.
2..keep my relationship with husband
3..keep my relationship with other man
4..never be caught happy.
But nobody is allowed to have their cake and eat it so why do I think I'm so special that I should?

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You're not a confessor and never will be? Not the most PRACTICAL solution?

Oh dear...

Well, I appreciate your brutal honesty and non-self-consciousness, but...I'm sorry, you're just not help-able if still happily in that self-gratuitous, cake-and-eat it attitude and opting to keep it forevermore a secret from your husband... and frankly I'm rather repulsed at the fact that the above two articles seemingly have had too little effect, if any, when it comes to having awoken a greater sense of empathy towards him and a greater moral tendency. Reading your response, one could be forgiven for concluding you have neither. You seem wholly consumed purely only by your own desires and need to self-preserve, with motivation for stopping the affair being more about... - WHAT? Why *do* you want to stop if the idea hasn't hatched from a huge prick to your conscience and being able to feel sorry (- that's *FEEL* sorry, rather than appreciate the onerous of concept merely from a logical and mercenary standpoint) for the man you married and bore children with?

So what precisely is it that made you come on here and create this thread in the first place? Are you worried some third-party might be on to you as we speak, and want to be able to answer No if/by the time you're confronted with the question, Are you having an affair? What? Tell me.

Also, as I analogised with the inflatable football illustration (which I should have mentioned, is as big as a house), it's not possible to take this sort of secret to the grave. [1] Your husband *will* find out, somehow (9.9 times out of 10, they always do), whether by following his perfectly sensitive nose or getting tipped-off (say, if you and the OM are spotted together or one of you falls out with someone you've confided in, or you and he fall out and he decides to get revenge, or one of you slips up one day, or you talk in your sleep, etc., etc. (the means list is very long)). Plus, [2] the later your husband finds out or the longer you fail to confess and beg his forgiveness, the worse it'll be for you (especially in the former case) as well as for him (and your kids) in terms of the extent and gravity of his initial shock followed by overriding, lasting reaction and likely decisions from there, I guarantee you that. And if - BIG IF - it does take decades, think about what that greater shock by then could do to his system (repeat: heart-attack, stroke..). Do those considerations not bother you or are they just not occurring in your mind?

Maybe I should have been clear to the Nth, but the 5 wishes related to trying to secure a happy ending FOLLOWING HAVING COME CLEAN. Given how I'd already stressed doing the right and decent thing as an opener and tone-setter, I'd have thought that intention obvious?

Or are you just expressing yourself badly in some endeavour to stay detached and unemotional?

I don't know. I just know I've gone very quickly from heartened to confused and repulsed between one post and the next. And I don't 'do' confused, so if I am then it's because you're torn (and you can't possibly achieve a full-minded objective with only half a mind cooperating), and if repulsed...well, quite frankly, I wouldn't like to say, other than.... there's only ever been one type of personality that can produce that reaction in me... unless it's just a temporary, reactive state(?).

Help me out here: How stressed between 1 (low) and 10 (high) would you say you are, lately, about all of this (and whatever else in your life might be adding or compounding things)?

I'm having an affair...

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I don't see what good confessing would do for anyone. Why would I? I don't see what possible good it could do.
And no I'm not concerned that anyone is "on to us". Not another soul knows apart from me and other man.
And if I'm being perfectly honest.... I don't actually "feel" guilty as it feels so head tells me it is wrong and I shouldn't be doing it whereas my heart and soul feel whole. I do genuinely love them both very much.
My stress levels vary between a 3 and a 8...somedays I'm not particularly stressed at all and then other days I'm very stressed by it.
I'm ultimately very confused and torn between what I logically know is right and what I feel. I wish it didn't have to be a choice but of course it has to be.

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Hello again,

I believe soulmate is unfortunately rather religiously biased. And to be frank, it is quite ironic that "Soulmate" is responding to a thread that proves that "soulmates" do not exist.
I am more concerned with the greatest good for the greatest number in the long term. In other words: everyone deserves to be happy, including your husband. You might be increasing his suffering by temporarily increasing your happiness. I do believe that this situation will be relatively short-lived and you are making long-term sacrifices to satisfy short-term pleasures. This is the awesome thing about humans, we have the capability to think about the future and make sacrifices on pleasure now to create a better future for ourselves in the long run.
To be totally transparent: I have experienced infidelity and the high that comes with being valued in a different way by someone else, so I completely understand what you are going through. That being said, it is still unfair to the other parties involved as this set-up is unsustainable in the culture that we live in. My relationship with my husband ended as a result, but I have no regrets because I feel that we were never a good match from the beginning. You may need to weigh the pros and cons of both relationship and figure out what is better for everyone in the long run. I still believe full transparency is the right thing to do. Your husband deserves to know what is going on.
Good luck to you and the others involved. If you tell the truth, it will only be bad for a short while and then the rest is what you make it and how you choose to react. When one door closes, others open. Just don't focus too much on that closed door.

I'm having an affair...

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Oh! Gosh! :-O And there was me, thinking I were anywhere between agnostic and aetheist - and saying so (up there)! But apparently not. Apparently I'm religious...and significantly so... not to mention given to biased opinions! Ah, wait that explains it... "Moderator wanted - must be purely subjective and preferably biased in his/her opinion".

Gosh, you learn something new every day, don't you?

...including that I and "Mr Soulmate", he whom I bang on about constantly on here, don't even exist!

(So does that mean he and I *can* have another Cream Slice?...*without* worrying about our non-existent cholesterol levels?)

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"I don't see what good confessing would do for anyone. Why would I? I don't see what possible good it could do."

Surely I've already addressed that question quite comprehensively and saliently in my very last post?

(Good grief, does anyone these days actually concentrate when they read???)

"And if I'm being perfectly honest.... I don't actually "feel" guilty as it feels so head tells me it is wrong and I shouldn't be doing it whereas my heart and soul feel whole."

That's what I thought. 'Label says Hot, wash says not' (so to speak).

"My stress levels vary between a 3 and a 8...somedays I'm not particularly stressed at all and then other days I'm very stressed by it."
I'm ultimately very confused and torn between what I logically know is right and what I feel. I wish it didn't have to be a choice but of course it has to be."

Eight. Right. Thank eff for that! ('Scuse French.)

But, look, I'm being 100% sincere and serious here when I say, you're not *nearly* ready to do the right thing. If your heart's not in it, you simply don't have the fuel for getting anywhere.

Stay and talk it out and over with other people, if you like, but I can't coach you on how to do the right thing and *not* lose your marriage until you are.

Give me a knock once that's the case.

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I'm not religious at all so you can't use that as your excuse on me . I know we are all human and we all mess up
But the fact that you are completely aware of what you are doing and are ok with it is disgusting to me but it's pretty
Normal in today's society . If your husband ( the guy that doesn't know you are screwing your "friend" ) is a decent
Person I feel horrible for him and I hope you forget to log off of this page and he happens upon it .

First of all if you are ok doing this you don't love him or you are sadly mistaken on the meaning of love . And your "friend" is a douche bag and you aren't the only woman he's seeing and you have no clue on how is mens mind works . Try telling him you are going to leave your husband and see what happens , make him actually believe it . Your husband isn't the only one being played . There is a very small chance that I am wrong . A man worthy of calling himself a man don't do this shit , if he's ok with doing this to your husband without feeling bad when another piece comes his way your name don't even exist .

He's a horrible person but it is pretty normal as I said , you are a horrible person too , but you don't care , even if you did dump your " friend " you won't think twice about screwing another guy . So until you get caught what does it matter ? I posted on this to make me feel better cause you obviously don't care . I hope you think about how horrible you are everytime you see your own face , I wish the best for your husband , I hope he finds out his wife is a cheating heartless piece of crap . But keep trying to lie to yourself and you can argue with what I said but it's pretty pointless . I didn't say anything you haven't already said .

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Advise ? What advise could somebody give you ?
You are ok with what you are doing ,you know it is wrong ,
you don't care that it is wrong , you will do it forever if you
Don't get caught . If you broke it off today you will go back .

You are scum , and you have convinced yourself otherwise
Or you just don't care , I'm guessing you don't care . I hope
You go see the other boy tomorrow and you walk in on him
With a another woman naked in his bed and when you turn
Around to leave your husband is standing there because he
Seen you pull in .

You don't deserve happiness , all that "cake" you are eating
Will catch up with you , I'm normally a nice person and I don't
Think I've wished anything bad on someone but I can't wrap my
Head around a human think this is ok , stating that you don't want
To change anything , I hope you lose everything , and tonight would
Be nice so the guy that you spoke those vows to( those words that
Don't mean a damn thing to you ) can start re-building his life .

People like you don't deserve happiness in my eyes , just my opinion
But if you found out tomorrow he has been cheating on you , you would
Divorce and act like are the victim , and you would probably believe it .
You are pathetic . Do one RIGHT thing in your life , tell the truth ,
Let him know his biggest mistake was loving you , trusting you and
For ever thinking there was anything good about you .

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Wow Livingmylife! Don't hold back please!
I know I'm wrong. I also know I need to stop doing what I'm doing. I don't want to stop but I know for the sake of my family is have to. I never set out to wind up in this position, it was a gradual process that started as friendship. And it just grew over a matter of many years. I'm not excusing my behaviour in any way, shape or form. But I really don't think there is any need for anyone to to be so overtly insulting and unpleasant.
I don't know what age you are but your way of communicating leads me to believe you are probably very young with little life experience so I will make allowances.
I guess it's easy for anyone to sit in judgement when they aren't or haven't been in the situation.

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Actually experience is the reason I said what I did , my sons mom
Did to me what you are doing to the father of yours . I don't see how
You feel you have any right to your family , it's ok for you to have sex
With another guy for a period of time to drop him go back to your children's
Father and act like it never happened . I'm not very young I was married for
10 years as well . I just don't see how you can do that to someone you supposedly love .

So you didn't expect anyone to speak the truth ? I'm sorry but a GOOD person wouldn't be ok with
This , what if the situation was turned around and you are the faithful one ?

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Thanks for the explanation Livingmylife.
I would of course be hurt if I were to find out my husband was doing what I'm doing but I wouldn't take the moral high ground and behave like the wounded party.
Do you mind if I ask you a few questions?
1- What was your marriage like before you discovered your wife's affair?
2-How did you discover your wife's affair?
3- Would it have hurt as much if you'd never found out and no one else ever knew?
Thanks in advance for the answers.

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" But I really don't think there is any need for anyone to to be so overtly insulting and unpleasant."

No, neither do I.



This is not the public stocks. It's a classier than average forum with bona fide, still-active or retired counsellors, even psychoanalysts, present. You can all express whatever hard fact, theoretical, experiential or both, it is that you want to say, *without* getting overly emotional or that cuttingly personal and recriminatory, *particularly* as you'll likely just end up sending VGF away when evidently what we *all* want to achieve - VGF included, note - is to damage limit, is it not?

It's obvious to me that VGF (sorry to talk about in you in the third but, needs clearly must) is under the usual, imperceptibly creeping and increasing influence of the usual cocktail of self-protective brain chemical alterations, which is *not* something within her control thus needs the benefit of more time (or a countering event/shock) to get lessened or undone. She's in high Defcon, to boot. Basically, on a non-stop, self-manufactured, bad drugs trip. This necessitates a turning off of her normal guilt registering mechanisms - you can actually hear it if you listen really concertedly... which tells me quite plainly that were this 'shutdown' *not* the case, the guilt would probably have her bouncing off the walls like a human wrecking-ball.

And that's *why* one shouldn't ever even put one foot on the slippery slope that is the thin end of that entire wedge. Because there's too little scope for backing up and stepping off again. Without help, I mean.

But the actions speak louder than any emotive-ness or seeming lack of. And the lead action says, I KNOW I HAVE TO STOP. The second says, I DID NOT COME HERE FOR FAUX VINDICATION. If she had, she wouldn't have had the courage to stand her ground and answer back.

Those are *not* the actions of someone devoid of a sense of morals and responsibility.

That's the only 'start' you need to take note of. It's just too soon right now to have taken more effective root and had the fuller desired effect, that's all.

So...A case of spilt milk. But not spilt blood, thank v much. Not in the (this case) absence of justification in the form of deliberate provocation. So try to stay more Spock-like and respectful, please, peeps. Unless you want to get beamed up? ;-p

As you were...

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VGF, you just 'leaked' a giant lead:

"1- What was your marriage like before you discovered your wife's affair?"

I bloody knew it. Course I did. For starters, NO woman that (supposedly) has steak at home need go out searching for greasy-cafe sausages. Fact. Where would be the point.

Come on, then, Mrs I'm-Happy Good-Man - spill... What thing(s) was missing from that dish at the cumulative point when you crossed the line?

If you don't know then say so and I'll help you find out via a series of questions.


PS: I also couldn't help noticing you failed to 'grab my lapels' to find out how to put paid to the raised eyebrows issue. Do you want to know yet? Because your insistence at staying put despite the above 'public flogging' tells me you absolutely do.

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PPS Livingmylife, please don't let my interception stop you from answering VGF's questions (if you've a mind to).

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My marriage doesn't have anything to do with this honestly .
But I walked in on my brother and wife in my bed . As for how it felt ,
If I didn't find out of course it wouldn't hurt as much, it wouldn't hurt at all .
, but you can not Be positive he will never know .

But the point is you are ok with hiding that truth from your husband forever
When he has the right to know ? How about you answer that question , if he was
Cheating on you would you rather him not ever tell you that he slept with a girl for a long
Time and had a relationship with that girl or would you rather find out ? If you are ok with
The fact of what you are doing and can hide the truth forever and you're ok with your husband
Having that done to him then go for it . Personally I'd rather get my heart broke than live forever
With someone that broke out vows . If I had the urge to sleep with a girl other than mine , then I would
Break up with her and go sleep with the other girl . It's not fair to you husband in my eyes , just because
He don't know don't mean it didn't happen .

I apologize if my blunt honest opinion
Offended you VGF

Ands for SOULMATE I'm so sorry , I'll let you tell me what
You want me to say or what book you want me to copy from . You asked for our opinion ,
What I said was 100 % true , and if I cleaned it up to something like .... Hello ma'am
What you are doing is wrong you shouldn't do it . You probably would have quit reading it , without
Reading What I said again you could probably say what I said to you . because I got your attention ,
Did I not ? If you are going to admit to cheating on someone and ask advise you should expect a lot
Worse than what I said . SOULMATE some ppl would rather have a real life answer instead copying
From a text book and typing everything to look or sound intelligent. I'd rather someone to tell me exactly
What I am or what I'm doing without sugar coating it . But I'm sorry that I'm not as smart as you , I don't
Want to waste my time typing 3 pages of hidden meanings and intellectual words when I can say the same
Thing , short blunt and to the point .

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Actually marriage is good. My husband loves and cares for me, he works hard for our family(away from home for most of the week...Maybe that's an issue) and he is a good man...I do love him.
My other man stimulates me mentally and intellectually, we share the same interests...have conversations that no one else even understands...and I find him so bloody attractive it's kinda scary.
I get very different things from each of these men and I think that's why I've found myself in this position. They both nurturing different parts of me. Even when it comes to the physical side of things I can't honestly say one is better than the other they are just very different. On the one hand I have my husbands who knows me so well, knows what buttons to push and knows my triggers and on the other hand there's my other man who is so sweet and loving and if I'm being honest when I'm with him it feels like 'coming home'.
I actually find it quite worrying that I'm finding it so easy to compartmentalise these feelings and relationships. I guess it's amazing the way us humans can justify things to ourselves.
Oh and go on then...tell me how to stop the raised eyebrows...

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VGF , SOULMATE Trying to find where that is in his book so while he's busy .
Everyone has something in there life that other ppl agree wouldn't agree with .
I hate the thought of cheating / cheaters . But guess what I'm not perfect I
Either , so really I should have not judged you like I did when I first read your
Message but when I read it , it was like reliving my ex and how she explained why
She couldn't stop seeing me or my brother . I was pissed and wanted to get your attention
To see if I could make feel bad . I still don't think you should do what you are doing and it's
Horrible , but I chew tabaco I have to have it if I say I'm quitting because everybody tells me I'm
Wrong that don't mean my body won't want it still and for me personally I will not quit because
Mentally my body needs it , just like the situation you are in , you are "addicted" to the feeling of
What you are doing and by what in about to say now I know I contradict a the angry mean stuff I said
Previously , which I still feel that way but that's for me not your situation . You should tell your husband
And ride out the storm you created , but if you do your husband and children suffer , your new guy suffers
Because none of for family will be talking to you and all the stress you won't be the same , then you suffer more than
Both sides cause you have just lost everyone you love . Which not trying to be an ass or hurt your feelings
You really couldn't say much if you did lose everybody , if you just dump the guy and don't tell your husband your "friend" suffers
You think about him constantly and will probably still lose your marriage because you're so depressed and hurt .
Honestly if you was one of my friends and you was setting here asking me for my opinion and I actually took time
To think about it I would tell you if everything is as healthy as you say , seems like your have ran it pretty quietly .
For you to be happy you can't stop what you have , but be expecting to except the consequences of that one it's a gamble you
Place one bet or you go all in . make one small mistake and you lose everything . I said nothing that you don't know already
This is how it seams to me , I can't see you happy any other way and if we was arguing I'd say that don't matter you are being selfish .
But you live once , it's your life if that's the only way you can be happy then never look at any of these again . Just be careful and know what the outcome might be . Good luck !

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LML, I didn't disagree with a single word you said - including about leaving someone if you even feel like acting on attraction for A N Other, so as to keep your morals intact (Gold star! More like that one, please, bartender!). But you're not going to tell me you couldn't have been more decorous about it; you're a grown man, one that presumably *doesn't* end up getting fired every other week for losing patience with clients and basically telling them to "do one!"?

And I'm 'visible' Moderator, responsible for keeping decorum and, where necessary, mediating. Were I not/were there no codes of conduct - or had VGF herself not remained ladylike in her posts and responses, and instead been the 'server' of insults and antagonism - *then* you'd have seen me put your own harshness in the shade (my dad's bigger than your dad ;-)).

Yet she didn't (despite provocation). So neither can I or you. That's the long, short and curlies of it as applies in all civilized human interaction. This isn't about intellectualism. Rulez iz rulez, Mannerz is mannerz. They're there to keep emotions from exacerbating things needlessly, because it's when one lets ones emotions escalate, i.e. control you rather than the other way around, that any number of important intellectual cylinders become otherwise engaged and one becomes uncooperative, as thick as pig sh*t, misses important data, *and* loses the moral high ground.

Other than that adherence - carry on. With all cylinders available.

Or, if you prefer, we can have an arm-wrestle?

I WIN! (So quick you missed it, huh.)

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"Oh and go on then...tell me how to stop the raised eyebrows..."

I can't hear you. Louder, please.


"(away from home for most of the week...Maybe that's an issue)"

(Yeah. Like, *maybe* the pope is Catholic.)

Elaborate, please?

Also, tell me what your reaction to any outside male advances would have been in your very first year with your now-husband?

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My husband works away from home 4 days and 3 nights and is then home 4 days and 3 nights. That's as elaborate as it gets. We've never been a couple that spends every day and night together. However we do make the most of the time we get together. We laugh, have fun, spend time with the kids and alone time too.
There have been other opportunities for me to be unfaithful in my relationship with my husband early on and after my initial relationship with other man but I am tempted by no other. I do sometimes wonder what would have happened if I'd met other man the year before I met husband instead of it being the other way round. Would I now be in the same position but the guy's roles reversed?

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Oh and a little bit of further info...
I've never been unfaithful in any other relationship either. This isn't something I do. In fact until I found myself in this situation I too would have stood in judgement of anyone doing what I am doing.
I think with hindsight the emotional side of mine and other man's relationship/friendship started years before we crossed any lines physically. When I first met him my initial reaction was "wow he's handsome as hell, but I bet he's really boring"...20 minutes in his company put paid to that though and we really hit it off and I kinda forgot how good looking he was and we built a solid friendship. It turns out though that he had a similar thought when he first met me.
Your username is 'soulmate'. I take it that's because you believe in the idea of 'soulmates'? And the thing is I do too, I just don't necessarily think you only get one...and I do genuinely feel both these men are soulmates. I don't know whether I'm the luckiest woman in the world that I've found 2 of mine or the unluckiest.
I just know I'm in a situation where I feel more fulfilled than I ever have but it's not a sustainable situation. And it's not fair on anyone apart from selfish me.

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I don't need to believe in the idea/hope/dream. I *used* to have to believe in it, but now I'm living it, it's my reality, I *AM* ONE (hand on heart, no bull!). FINALLY!

How? Because - bar just the once, stupidly - I refused to settle for incompatibles and immature idiots, never lost faith - confirmed by studying up on genetics - that (yes, you're correct) every single person has an actually surprisingly vast pool of near-as-damnit-perfectly-matching partners, wherein, like any echelon, exists the cream. It's just genetics; the rest all stems from that one, major, starting criterium. So if you hold out and keep searching through the lucky dip that is life ("nope - neext!, nope - neeext!..."), if, meanwhile, you do special in order to BE special and thereby ATTRACT special then - just like missing keys that for a fact are *somewhere* in the house - you'll find or be found by him/her, fact - anywhere between Mr/Ms Better Than Most and Mr/Ms 95% Perfect!... when, not if.

It's really not rocket science and nor is it a myth. Such a 'top executive' relationship is hard work, though, for its incredible, wondrous rewards/salary...and that - hard work - is the part that puts people off and has them trying to convince themselves and everybody else that it's merely a childish pipe dream....That or self-limiting beliefs ("I'm not worthyyy/Life isn't that kind") or genuine over-busyness thanks to the nature of today's societal living ("Too tired already, s/he'll do").

Mr Soulmate hadn't done any such studying, all he'd had were high hopes, incredible patience, tenacity and determination and, clearly, in view of that lack of 'inside knowledge', even greater instincts, faith in life and in himself and what he deserved, even than me (which I hadn't though possible).

Our past bad or too-far-from-ideal choices didn't discourage us. Au contraire, they just re-confirmed what we deep-down knew and made each of us even more determined. And then - Bam! - it happened: we finally crossed paths. Highly fateful, it was, to the point of 'what were the chances!' and "shpookayyy!". We're still to this day pinching ourselves.

There was no, 'This person's so good-looking he's probably boring with it'. We didn't even NEED to speak (let alone give it time for the okay-ish chemistry to collect enough to create the urge to finally act). The eyes - and what get communicated through them - had it and 'held a conversation' (or interview?) during the 5 minute mutual ogling point. BAM! Instant recognition, instant for-life relationship (like an adult game of hide 'n seek: "I've found you!"), instant committed-ness, instant no. 1 priority at all times, instant bliss that's never....ever...ceased...and in fact just keeps getting bigger and better (and the physical side *too* good)! Even our entire histories are virtually identical. We're not 'in-love', WE'RE OBSESSED. Equally. Helplessly so. And we shouldn't be because we're supposedly too long out of Honeymoon Period...only, we're not. Despite the normal relationship phases have run right on schedule, we are still, without any control or say in the matter, absolutely, utterly-butterly fruit-loopy over one another! Put it this way, other people - relatives, friends, acquaintances - are anywhere between inspired and hurriedly trying to copy our ways in order to 'lift' their own existing relationship (which won't work if they're the wrong match) or envious/jealous as hell and not very good at hiding it.

You've evidently made the wrong choice of husband, otherwise lovely though he might be. Because since the moment we met, Mr S and I find it literally impossible to find any other people attractive (as in alluring/tempting), even if we can appreciate their looks and all-round calibre on paper. Not one! Everyone else on the planet has ceased to be sexual/romantic entities, gender-less and genital-less (if that makes sense). The concepts of leaving each other or cheating on each other are literally inconceivable as well as anathema and as downright ludicrous as deciding to gouge out our own eyeballs. And whenever we find ourselves hit on - quite often, despite our large wedding bands...undoubtedly something to do with our blissfully smug faces, demeanours and vibes - we just as smugly send the silly person packing without any thought or hesitation I repeat: who that has steak at home goes out looking for sausages? Who would, that has Chateaubriand?!

Not so you (inconceivable + steak), and you said it yourself: There are elements missing in your husband *and* elements missing in your affair partner. So you spend time with BOTH in order to get your total needs met and feel fulfilled. Two separate lego sets 'connected together' to make the sum total of The One/One Of The Ones, despite one of the sets (husband) is unaware of it (or is he?). Only you're still not fulfilled, are you. Hence are here, doing just that - conceiving of giving the OM up yet *not* your husband, despite not yet capable of putting your conscious sense of obligation into effect. ACTIONS! Plus pure, blinding logic of mechanics. There's no arguing with them.

Conclusion: your husband is only 55% right for you, your OM only about 30-45%. If you left your husband to be with OM, you'd be low-grade but chronically dissatisfied and unhappy (and probably having to cheat on him with your now ex-husband or someone similar). If you stayed with your husband without the OM on the side, you'd be chronically, but 'background-ly' dissatisfied and not nearly happy *enough*. The truth is, then, that you need to leave BOTH men and keep searching/being seen as up for grabs on the dating market so that your "One" and you can finally meet/have your paths intersect. You and your self-made circumstance are the only thing standing in the way of having what I and Mr S have.

You'd obviously have to bust a bit of a gut to ensure your kids came out of the divorce relatively unscathed (it can be done if either of you are emotionally mature enough, as can lasting amicability), but, in the final analysis (note, LML), you'd be doing your husband a giant favour through freeing *him* up to find the woman of his 'dreams' (since clearly she's not you).

And that probably explains HOW he could bear to be in his marriage and family only half of the time.

YES, half the time. Face that fact: you and your husband have a half relationship. And always have. Commitmentphobe x 2 Alert! Oh, you *want* the definitive relationship. But you don't dare.

S/he who dares, wins.

I learned from that one settling mistake many moons ago that there's no such thing as half a relationship, any more than you can have half a plant-pot. Either you're all in and doing it fully, or you may as well not bother. Think about a plant-pot sliced through its middle, top-to-bottom. Can it retain enough water and Baby Bio? No. Can it be healthy? No. Will it ever grow properly and get upgraded to a bigger, better pot? No. Thrive enough to produce blooms? Never. Be as attentive as you like within scant means and opportunities and all you'll achieve is, prolonging its slow but steady death.

What little leaves it had have been dropping off already, look.

Two roughly half-lovers is not the solution. It's a second, potentially lethal problem atop the original one. It's no more a solution than chopping off your arm because you can't stand the sensation of a number of finger-papercuts. It's you trying to augment your husband, same as he's doing by giving half of the energy he should be dedicating to his wife, first, and kids, second, to his career (there are too many other companies and jobs out there for you to argue with that one). Apparently, his job is his 'other lover'. BUT... maybe not...because if he's away half the week, every week of every year, out of your 'eyeshot'...hmmm, that would get me thinking, in terms of means and opportunity on his part (combined with what I know regarding men who 'have to' work away from home half the time). Has this never crossed your mind? If not, then how's *he* augmenting that missing 45%? I mean, a job doesn't feed ones vital romantic-sexual needs, does it? Or does it.

Clearly it crossed Clueless's mind. (Not so clueless then.) He knows men and how they tick in whatever situation better than you do.

When you've met your soulmate, be he anywhere between 85 and 95% perfect for you as an individual, you do not need another do not want another soulmate... you don't have the time or inclination for another soulmate.... and *never* do you forget how handsome he or she is. These entire ideas are pathetic and risable, thus entirely revealing.

As for either of these men:

- If your OM loved you, no way could he sit around happily waiting for you to leave your husband or be content with crumbs/part-time on a long-term or possibly permanent basis. As Harry in When Harry Met Sally said, 'When you realize you want to spend the rest of your life with somebody, you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible".

- If your husband truly loved you, to full capacity, assuming full capacity were possible, no *way* wouldn't he be able to sense something were up, feel frightened or anxious, highly disturbed, and confront you over it (you don't need concrete evidence, just human bog-standard sensitivity to the flow of patterns, atmospheres and vibes).

These two men are not your soulmates. LOGICALLY-, SITUATIONALLY-, EVIDENTIALLY-, EXPERIENTIALLY- (- mine) PROVEN *FACT*.

However, a sensible individual would put that to the ultimate test first in order to have conscious certainty and conviction. Leaving aside the beaut of a sure-fire suggestion by the obviously intelligent and canny Clueless to convince your OM you want to jump ship to him, to see what inarguably results - obviously there is more scope with your husband, given that leaving him is far less do-able in your mind than leaving the OM. Or is that just because of the sense of commitment to the kids? If not, then you two need to start seeing a marital counsellor to sort out whether the scope of the match isn't the problem, but your mutual fear of fuller mental and physical commitment. After all, you can't complain, whether with your mouths OR feet, that there are insufficient sparks if you insist, the pair of you, on continually standing a non-conducive distance apart the whole time. Or do you two Einsteins constantly try to ignite a match by slashing it 2cms away from the box's striking strip, slashing nothing but the air in between?...or just standing there yelling, 'Light, damn you!'?

Prove it - one way or the other! Or sit there continually in Limbo, whinging and complaining or just 'saying' in your head, 'Is this it? Is this all there is?'.

No, it's not. Not remotely. But it isn't going to be handed to you on a plate. NOTHING in life worth having, or, better yet, worth dying for, comes for free or from just going through the motions, be those proper or (your case) improper, illogical, wholly self-defeating, self-destructive and self-demoting. You reap precisely what you daily, full-time sow within whatever calibre of field you in the first place choose/agree to till.

(all of it)

So I respectfully suggest you stop deluding yourself, particularly in front of people who know better than you, and get off your procrastinatory a*se.


PS: I said, Louder. I even ensured to add, please, to get around your thinking it were some sort of ego challenge. And you came back with: ".......................". So, no - you're NOT having the gem in my pocket. Not until you show you're ready to 'grab my lapels'. Work first, THEN perk! And - note! - were that your life ethic, you wouldn't be IN this mess (, Stanley) and we wouldn't be needing to have this conversation.

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So...OK I'm going to be perfectly honest here...
"obviously there is more scope with your husband, given that leaving him is far less do-able in your mind than leaving the OM. Or is that just because of the sense of commitment to the kids?"
In a word is because of my children that I know I need to leave other man and stay with my husband. If it was just me...I know exactly where I would be. Cards on table...I love my husband he brings me security he makes me feel safe and loved and we do have fun together but and I've only just admitted this to myself it's other man who if I had my time again I would choose and be with.
I've booked a holiday today and will be taking off on my own for a week next Monday to try and get my head together. I've spoken to other man today and told him not to contact me for the next couple of weeks as I need some time to gather my thoughts.

I don't think you're correct in saying my husband is a commitment phobe. Circumstances dictate he is away from home. Me? Maybe I am. Maybe I have my reasons for being that way. But my husband knew when we got together that I would never be the 24/7 together type. It just isn't who I am.

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I'm back...I guess also I've questioned why my husband is so completely fine with my best friend being a guy...and not a guy who I've known forever...a guy I met through work less than a year after we got together. When me and hubby met I was 2yrs out of an emotionally abusive relationship...I was strong again and super independent...and made it clear to him that I would never be controlled or hemmed in or isolated like I had been previously and he promised never to do that to me. So actually I guess I do know why he was OK with it.
Maybe I'm really not cut out for a relationship in the way society dictates it should be.

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It takes 2-5 years to recover from a relationship trauma (or 10, according to the Chinese). Surely you can see you weren't quite at the end of the Recovery Path if there you were, telling your next, serious boyfriend/now-husband that, basically, you insisted he always give you significantly more room than is normal or conducive to proper intimacy or 'no dice'? And yes - how *come* that didn't faze or put him off? Didn't he *want* full level intimacy? Not a CP, you say? Well, what *else* type would agree to sign up to such a relationship and life?

Told ya (;-)). *Not* such a perfect marriage, after all. But then, how are you supposed to be capable of gauging if what you've just come from is a truly sh*tty union? *Any* marked improvement is going to feel amazing by-comparison, isn't it. Better, however, is not the same as Best Possible.

Maybe that - prematurity - has been the nuclear problem all along? It's certainly a very typical one (have a trawl through the archives, you'll see). I analogise it like this: A chronically traumatic event puts you temporarily in a wheelchair. Now on crutches, you meet a man you like and fancy, that likewise is on crutches. 'Great!', you think, 'We can finish progressing to full mobility *together*'. But, unbeknownst to you, his crutches aren't temporary. Aaaaand, here you are.

I'm afraid it's too easy to be a great husband or wife on paper, yet leave the other cold or too cool, romantically. No passion. (Isn't that what's missing, if you really think about it - passion?)

But here's the burning and more fair-minded question: Were his crutches indeed a permanent fixture? Or could it have been that he was so hell-bent on making you his wife he was prepared to agree to *any* conditions? Would he prefer the pair of you to be a lot closer, secretly hating the fact of this male bessie friend, yet daren't step over that snuggly-buggly line or make a stand of protest, in case you see it as a breakage of the vital contract or just push him hurtfully away? Is a job that effectively halves your relationship (sorry, but, whatever you say, I insist there are too many other companies or jobs in this world he could switch to) his coping mechanism?

I think you should attempt to elevate your love-life by trying the right remedies in the right before cart. I don't think two weeks' 'holiday' is nearly enough time to detach from OM by whatever significant degree as would allow straighter and fairer thinking (you need to feel as 'cool' towards him as towards hubby to ensure a scientifically fair comparisons test). Not that it's not a good start, though (it is, and well done! :-)). So, yes, try it. And then, if you come back here, ready to add *more* weeks, or even months, I'll take that as a warranting, or qualifying if you like, of my giving you said 'little gem' of an anti eyebrow-raising tactic.

Does that sound like a plan or does that sound like a plan?

And then after that you can tackle the decision over whether or not to confess to hubby. You never know, being in an improved state of mind by then, you might find you want to or appreciate you need to. Cross that bridge when you get to it. But there *are* ways of coming clean to your spouse whereby they don't automatically cast you into exile. It's actually not that difficult if you know all the things a betrayee needs to hear. Genuinely sincere things that you're more than prepared to put into immediate application, obviously. But let's wait and see...

PS: What did OM say, what was his reaction?

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I genuinely think that my husband genuinely wanted me so was willing to do things my way.
Other man wasn't happy, he wants us to be together but appreciates I need some time to sort my head. I asked him..."if I was single would you still want to be with me or is it the convenience of me being married that attracts you? No responsibility, no demands etc?"
His response?
"If you were or had been single at any point it wouldn't be for long because we'd be together. And I hate that you think for a second you would ever be a convenience to me.".
He says he loves me. I don't know what to think.

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Wasn't happy *but*...

"When love is not madness, it is not love." - Pedro Calderon de la Barca

When you're genuinely in-love with someone, two weeks absence from them strikes as a looooooooong time. Torture. Particularly when the other doesn't strictly *have* to take a 'holiday' (and thereby could be talked round easily enough). And yet, somehow, counter to a man in-love, he manages *not* to panic but stay quite nonchalant, enough to be perfectly understanding and accepting about it....*too* accepting, if you ask me, given how, amongst other things, you've made him perfectly aware of the very real threat this 'thinking time' poses to his relationship with you...which is atop the fact, let's not forget, of his already having been prevented from having you all to himself, like you'd expect a man bang-slap in-love to want so badly as to have been all this time pushing, pressuring, nagging, even *threatening* for, for two whole years already.

Here's what OMs/OWs tend to do when they can wait no longer (usually as little as after 6 months or so): Find a way to let the betrayee start to cotton-on or full find out, in the desperate hope it'll end up with HIM/HER ending their lover's marriage, meaning the cheater's choices end up limited to [a] her/him versus [b] NOTHING/NO-ONE. They can be veeeery creative, devious and subtle about it. Downright Machiavellian, actually. 'Where there's a will...'.

Most men don't like to feel their destinies lay in anyone's hands other than their own. See it, want it, grab for it (busting whatever gut is commensurately necessary with how badly wanted and needed and by when). Go-getters, not Sit-'n-wait-to-receive-ers. They're not women. They FEEL the same, but don't act on their feelings in the way women do (are solely permitted to do, I should say). Go-getters.

So this statement - "If you were or had been single at any point it wouldn't be for long because we'd be together. And I hate that you think for a second you would ever be a convenience to me" - is all very well (although, contextually very insipid-sounding), but, DO THE ACTIONS BACK IT UP?

If we take that response as an action in itself, doesn't it translate merely to this: 'Well, of course, I guess I'd LIKE it if we could be together full-time like a normal couple in-love, but - ...never mind, que sera'?

Never mind? Que sera? MWACK-MWACK OOPS! He should - certainly by now - be doing all in his power to MAKE you make yourself single (think about it)!

You *are* thinking about it, hence "I don't know [even after hearing him spouting that] what to think".

No, sorry. I wouldn't know what to think, either. Only, at this proof point in my life - I would. And not just because of my own first-hand experiences, either. Because the simple truth is this: if you ever find yourself having to question (- seriously, I mean, not just because of infrequent, fleeting wobbles not even of the lover's doing or catalysing - and you can hand-on-heart factor out being the sort of oh-so-insecure person who can't accept even concrete counter-evidence right in front of their nose -) whether your lover truly loves and is in-love with you, then... the very fact of having to ask means, HE IS NOT. Berbom. Because when a man truly loves you, the 'question' gets 'answered' automatically...... They're called congruent actions. So, true love - love enough to make a life with - doesn't say, 'He says he loves me [but] I don't know what to think.' If you're not more sure about the so-called fact than you've ever been about anything else in your life up to that point - you're not.

I can't say it enough times or in enough ways. And right now, I really (REALLY-REALLY) wish I could slap that "friend"'s face!

VGF, you're doing the right and only intelligent thing in taking this 2 weeks out. No *way* is that 'sample' up there - one given at suggested potential crunch-time, note - enough encouraging incentive to put an end to or see ruined your marriage and family life and that of your husband and kids plus others via aforementioned outward ripples. (I mean, Jezuz-Louisus, it sounds as if all that were missing from the end of that sentance were, ' - another cup of tea, Vicar?'. Be still my beating heart-zzzzz....) And I say that, rather than restating about leaving them both, because of having since learned about how you and your husband haven't ever given your relationship a fair chance. Course not, not with this half-relationship set-up both in practical and emotional ways...this half-bond.... this great past excuse a deux (that by now should be obsolete) for basically trying this time round to avoid potential heartache because you think you just couldn't take it again.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And yet here's the thing with a situation that carries potential heartache. If you and the other truly love each other (and did take the leap of getting married and having kids together, let's not dismiss that giant vote of certainty and confidence with both sets of feet) and you both 'feel the fear but do it anyway' - all of the hilt - then that 'doing it bravely to the hilt' IS what guarantees neither one of you will ever meet a point of heartache. BER-BOM.

You could, like too many others, have said, for example, 'Well, I'll live with you and no doubt have kids with you, but I ain't marrying you, no don't ever ask me', couldn't you.

Here's my analogy: Two track athletes that for past bad experiences reasons lack confidence in their abilities and/or that Lady Luck likes them, survey the 400m track along which they're later that day going to try to win a race. 'Meh... I never win...someone else is going to get that trophy, I just know it.... so, I'll still run it, sure, may as well since I'm here...but there's no point in my flogging myself to death trying'. Negative self-fulfilling prophesy comes true, because by NOT giving it their all, unlike the other runners, they're now nigh-on guaranteeing not winning.

Is that unintelligent thinking or is that unintelligent thinking? That's fear and dread in the mix for ya. And (to me) clearly, you and your husband and this "friend" are all Likes on that score, hence were drawn to one another in the first place: "I (cough!) don't mind being away half the time / I (cough!) don't mind you being away half the time, either (although, actually I do) + I don't mind being away from you 90% of the time or the thought I might lose you for-good in 2 weeks / I don't mind either (although, actually I do)."

I take it back - you *are* the victim...only, because that doesn't suit how you normally are (- I'm educatedly guessing -) in all other arenas, you've been dealing with it in such a non-sensible way as to have converted yourself, now, to a perpetrator. So let's edit that down to, were a victim, are now unwilling predator...and *not comfortable being there* yet unable to work out how to extricate yourself from the situation without nuclear-bombing for miles around.

Human-created problem? Human-calculable solution...-ZUH. Always.

I mean, let's again be brutally honest - back when hubby proposed (did he rush you?), you just weren't quite ready to enter into that kind of commitment again,...the potential lion's den... you just needed more time to get over the last of the effects of that abusive relationship to where you would have found yourself recovered and ready again, finally. Which you did. Did you not think to just SAY so to hubby? Or did you, and he came back with, 'But YOU SAID...and now I've had to get used to it and am okay with it'? Because the only answer to that would have been: That was then, THIS IS NOW, feelings create situations, then feelings change, so situations change to-suit... so how's about you look around for another job, one that means you can spend more time with me (as well as the kids) and allows you and I to bond the rest of the close as we *should* be and *could* be... to where the sparks REALLY catch and we've got ourselves a bonfire of passion?

VGF, if your husband manages to make you happy more than not, *despite he isn't even around half the time* (!!!?), then... do the simple maths regarding what, logically, would happen if he were and you two got really intimate... no more glass ceiling: the potential absolutely is there for you and he to *properly* fall in-love the rest of the way. The solution wasn't to 'call a man in'.

Or can't you talk and assert honestly to your husband like that? I guess it's not a huge stretch of imagination to suppose not, because it'd just be a typical symptom of [wait for it] not having allowed yourselves to get close-up enough. (Pretzel, anyone?)

Put it this way: Would you husband happily and calmly tolerate for two whole years seeing you only fractionally of the time, far-FAR less than at present? If you said, 'I'm going to move out and live by myself in a flat and you can see me just once or twice per week or fortnight, other things allowing or not', do you think he'd say, 'Ooo-kaayyy.... I understand'? Or would that be 'giving you space' TOO far...would he be whinging, nagging, pressuring, PANICKING AND DEMANDING YOU AND HE TALK ABOUT IT, FIND OUT WHAT THE PROBLEM IS, NOW-NOW-NOW?

Think about what I've said whilst thinking about whether OM is truly as into you as he claims and as should be after TWO long years of supposedly badly wanting and yearning for you but never being able to have you. Because your gut instinct - *YOUR FEET - said (to yourself as well as *to me), 'He says he loves me. I don't know [WHAT] to think'.

If your marriage goes bust, what does HE care? What does HE stand to lose that can't easily be replaced? See?

PS: It's not society that dictates how a relationship should be. It's the human heart plus just so happening that all those hearts live, according to the base, primitive programme called Social & Cooperative Animals, in great big packs. Not cut out, my a*se. You're human, aren't you? But you have the results of PAST issues, now standing in your way. That's all. Just FEELS too complicated to tackle.

'If you don't sort your issues you'll run out of tissues' (- moi).

Keep keeping me posted. And PPS - sorry to foie gras you, but with you about to go away - needs must. PPPS LML - was that lengthy and original enough for ya?! ;-p

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There was more said between myself and other man. You got the very abridged version. He has been my friend for a long time and I know him... there were so many times in the past we should have met. We went to the same college, he worked in a place I frequented, we had mutual friends ,our history intertwines in so may way and yet our paths never crossed till it was 'too late'! And since we met he has been nothing but amazing. He listens to what I say, like really listens...he understands and hears what I'm saying. He has been a huge support at times as I have been for him. He make some smile more than I've ever smiled before. And I know it's the same for him. I do feel I have to fight his corner here as I know he could be seen to be the bad guy...but he really isn't. I should have kept him at arms length from the start. It was kinda apparent how we felt early on but the thought of not having him in my life takes the breath from me. The thought of no contact for the next 2 weeks breaks my heart. We communicate every day and have done for over 9 yrs. It's his good morning texts that greet me in the morning and his How's your day been phonecalls that brighten my days. His evening texts wishing me sweet dreams and telling me he'll see me in his that make me fall asleep with a smile on my face. He's the only man I've ever been able to look in the eye when we're "together" (if you know what I mean?)
I'm beginning to realise that i am completely and utterly in love with this man. And it all seems so impossible...because it is impossible.
I'm just going to have to remain strong and try to sort my marriage out.

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And with regard the proposal from husband...i said yes because I loved him and because I could see us making a good life...when I said yes he said he wanted us to start planning a wedding...he didn't ask me to marry him to wait years till it we got married because I did want to be with him. With hindsight i maybe wasn't ready...but he is a good man I can't emphasise that enough...and im being so unfair and disloyal to him.
I want to make it work with my husband but I don't burn for him like I burn for my other man.

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Bear with, not ignoring you (weekends are always difficult). Back on tomorrow.

Before I go, though:

"I'm just going to have to remain strong and try to sort my marriage out."

Ku-DOS!!! From *your* erstwhile position, making that decision and putting it in B&W in front of other people is like scaling a 10ft wall with a single bound!...with and onto a broken leg!

Real, as in intrinsic and chronic, selfish-idiot cheaters (as in, permanent uck-wits) can't do that. They go, uck off, whadda YOU know, or just silently slink off to some or other forum to hopefully hear yet more cheaters - ones that *can't* be arsed to elevate their human calibre at a do-able cost of a wee period of pain followed by LASTING happiness (or ecstasy if they really knuckle down), to pat them on the back, say 'there-there, you haven't done anything wrong (and neither have I)', etc.

(GOOD! I still know how to pick 'em!) (Sorry, my a*se made me say that. LOL)

Seriously, VGF (and one day you'll appreciate *how* seriously), you've got something to feel exceedingly proud about now. Probably about 50 'Proud Credits' to cancel out 50 'Pride Debits' to get you out of the Red and back into the Black. See? Progress already! :-) And how hard was the process of getting to this point - really? the grand scheme of things?

(See how powerfully affecting words can be? (a-hem!...if you get my drift?)

But, anyway, HappyVille here you come!

(Don't touch that effing dial!!!!! LOL)

You still have a couple of viruses lingering in your grey matter, though, which hopefully I can pluck out tomorrow.

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Re 'you got the abridged version'.

I gave you the floor, to basically convince me this OM loves and is in-love with you in the proper senses of the words and to the extent worth smashing your marriage and family (and extended family and social circle) for. If this boy had in any way behaved in ways - at any point, not just at what is too obviously Crunch Time - that had convinced you, with which to convince me, of that, then,... Do not try to kid a kidder, kiddo. This is Cupboard Love only *or* Love with a male that has a p....uny little heart capable of making only a t....iny little "...peep" [sorry, what - can't hear ya? / "...peep" / no, sorry, still can't - louder? / "...peep"].

Loves You protects you, enhances your calibre, makes you a better woman, feeds you till you have to undo your jeans buttons, leaves you guilt-free and pride-heavy.

And by the way, I used to be a sort-of player too (not his shoddy kind - I was perfectly up-front, right from The Off, about lastingness not being an option, back out now if that's what you're after and arrogantly think you can eventually persuade me round to want, bucko). Takes one to know one. Oh, yeah...bit of seemingly intense eye-contact during the deed, along with blah-blah mush-mush flatter-flatter, ah there-there, I understand, and getting off myself on all the perfectly, unisexually-enjoyable hearts and flowers...... GOD, it was exhausting and such a huge hassle. *Not*.

The ACTIONS are:
1. Can wait forever and a day to have you all to himself.
2. Can bear the thought of for two years and counting, sharing you (*and* your mouth and knicker regions) with another man (- good grief!!!).
3. Stabbing a supposed male friend repeatedly in the back.
4. Can fail to panic a jot or try to stop you when you give him wind of this possibly being the start of "curtains".
5. AS curtains, can just flap his over-coolly reassuring lips around but fail to jump up to attention and *show* you reassurances like a headless chicken.
6. For two whole years, sitting back, letting you effectively, tantamountedly, lay superglued on the White lane markings of a (your case) country lane (your husband and kids glued alongside) - knowing that the inevitable, speeding juggernaut is headed your way every single day, yet *not* having run, or even *tried* to run, out onto the tarmac to remove you (and indirectly/inadvertently them) from that danger ONLY TO YOU and *not* take you away from all of this and make an honest woman of you.
...and other disheartening, disillusioning "things 'n stuff" that weigh 10 Tonnes versus the petty words and actions that weigh only 1 Gram. (Or do you want me to list it *all* out for you?)

You can be FRIENDS, even CLOSE friends with a player, you know? Fine! But *not* fine when you go and re-categorise thus re-pigeonhole yourself as *Lover*. Because Lover, to him - evidently - means Abusive Cannon Fodder.

*Sounding* nice and decent, *doing* superficially nice and decent, being able or being seen to be perfectly decent to *just friends*, does not Decent make. It's in the actions/lack of.

Just because you escaped one abuser, doesn't mean you're going to from then on be impervious to all of them. They come in myriad, varied formats. They're bloody everywhere. But, hey - it's only a matter of time and more experience before you can spot every type and know to sidestep them, rather than invite them into your life. Plus, you hadn't finished recovering back to full strength, and that leaves you vulnerable. Specifically, two-thirds recovered attracts one-third f**kwit. Unless what you attract (husband) is another once-victim. But once-victims themselves not yet recovered aren't, I'm afraid, all that good at wooing and keeping wooed (so that you have eyes only for them).

Enjoying someone... is not the same as loving someone.


Do you think your husband is the type of man that would ever knowingly tempt and encourage some woman into putting her (and her innocent children's) main sources of welfare into such incredible jeopardy? Or is he too much of a woman-liking gentleman? I'd say yes to that, at this point. But you tell me.


I am pre-telling you a package of truth that is going to increasingly dawn on you as you and your husband's connection firms up and hots up courtesy of increased concentration without distraction(s). Additionally, *when* that happens (not only need to strike the damn match, not fashion a whole new matchbox or grow a new hand), the guilt in FEELINGS format is going to disinter itself and now 'attack' those newly resuscitated 'feelings receptors' of yours. If you add the above negative epiphany to that "OMG, what a cruel, selfish user, I've just realised!" payload, you might well start going (how shall I put it?...) DOOLALLY, thereby marring or ruining the amazingly surprising progress (excitement and enthusiasm, etc.) (*BURNING*) between you and your husband-now-SUPER-LOVER.

Addiction (within the natural, healthy amount range) is not the problem. It's WHO you're addicted to.


Now, then - do you have a regular babysitter / childminder / doting 'grandparents'?

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Just a quick response... I'm in the airport and will be out of contact for the next week at least.
We don't really have babysitters...our parents live close by but they are elderly and not in the best of health. And the rest of our families live a distance away.

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Some people love married man/woman because they don't have any responsbility for them. And that it's easy for them to leave you when they need to or dont want you anymore. I am not saying that the feeling you both have isn't real. But love like that ain't real enough. Remember, fantasy feels like heaven but it doesn't change the fact that fantasy is nothing but a mere fiction.. I hope you dig deeper unto that thoughts. Understand it until it hits the real thing hits you.

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(Good post, FD! :-))

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Other man has just messaged me. He is at the airport. He "needs to see me".
I should tell him to get right back on a plane home. But he's just travelled here to see me. Crap! Crap! Crap!

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Well, it's high time you *did* have a regular babysitter. That's something to organise once you start applying all the energies you were misdirecting to OM onto your legitimate lover.

(Normally, when a couple's relationship has, Snakes & Ladders-style, slid back quite a few moves/boxes or, your case, never progressed beyond those first few squares because of a seemingly permanent blockade, I tell the OP that *since* the relationship has been shunted back to/kept in the semi-bonded zone, it counts as still being in wooing-chasing mode, meaning, it's accordingly the bloke's job to be the one to start making greater efforts (dance - man leads, woman responds and follows). But the giant road-block was yours ("don't you ever dare come closer than X Feet!") so the responsibility for triggering this process is likewise yours, just until he inevitably, naturally starts to take control over the initiating/romancing.)

But that extra bit of data about your parents being elderly and being too out-of-touch with your other family, added to the fact you're here on a forum rather than confiding in a best female friend (a sadly all-too-common situation these days) goes a long way towards explaining yet another reason why this "male best friend" has- sorry, *had* such a hold over you and why you're too loath to consider having to give up the (so-called) friend in him as well, wanting to salvage that side of things. So that's another (future) To Do on your Self-Betterments How To list.

This is just a staircase - psych version - that you lost your footing on. Getting back up to the original step and then HIGHER STILL (with seemingly no ceiling and no end to the heights attainable) is not actually all that hard to do (nowhere near it) if you just take it one step or series of Baby-step at a time and wait (briefly) to see the astonishingly brilliant results start rushing in (followed by kicking yourself for just HOW easy it always was if only you'd known what and how). There's every reason to believe, scope-wise, that in however many months from now (depending on how speedily reactive your husband is) you're going to be marvelling over how in-love with and *excited* by your husband you are, so much so that you now realise how little you knew him and what diamond-like *and* super-sexy sides to him lay never-unearthed beneath (if only you'd had the key to unlock them). You PRESUME it'll take conscious, concerted effort on your part, every step of the way - e.g. forcing yourself to want candlelit dinners followed by forcing yourself to have an all-night (and all next day) 'duvet camping' expedition, i.e. feel like a drag, but - that, happily, is not how the primitive, uncontrollable part of the mind works. It has hidden programmes that can be switched to "RUN", whether you know it or think you want it or not. It just needs one or a short series of 'flicks' before momentum quickly takes over (think positive snowball effect) and FEELING LIKE IT, FEELING *COMPELLED*, becomes the order of the day. You'll be sh*gging each others' faces off (sex-life becoming better than you ever thought possible between two mere humans), going back to re-do all the tee-hee-chase-me-chase-me / I wuv oo/I wuv oo too Honeymoon 'nonsense'. Your kids will start to half-giggle, half-complain, go, 'Ew, get a room, you two!' (as it should be), while you, meanwhile, start to get struck by this thought: 'Secret "lover", my a*se - he was PA-THETIC and I just couldn't see it back then'. And of course you couldn't: you need a proper yardstick for that.

Basically, you're going to feel towards your husband what you used to feel for OM *timesed 10*.

Imagine Timesed Ten. Go on - imagine it. "Woah!", right?

And what would put a firework up *hubbies'* bum, i.e. get him immediately initiating rather than just responding until he 'clicks in' (and like a bloke just out of prison after a 10-year stretch come Pepe Le Pew on Acid), would be if - handled the optimally-effective way - you were to include confessing replete with beating yourself up before he could, including reading out your 'manifesto' (and other heartfelt strategies).

Again, the anti eyebrow-raising nugget (which awaits your return) can meanwhile be coming to the rescue in terms of keeping the floor free.

Thanks for letting us know you're off; have a good mental break (pref. somewhere warm and sunny, I hope), and see you when you report back in a week or two. PS: Don't let OM disrespect your wishes. If he attempt-manipulates by trying to contact you (in *any* way, shape or form) whilst you're away - tell him why, and that it's just for the time being, and then at that point immediately BLOCK HIS NUMBER. Remember, you've got to disengage by X amount so that he 'comes down' to where hubby is, so that your mind can now compare them stood side-by-side at the exact same 'height and physique'.

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Sorry, I was typing whilst you were posting that new mssg...

"Other man has just messaged me. He is at the airport. He "needs to see me".

I should tell him to get right back on a plane home. But he's just travelled here to see me. Crap! Crap! Crap!"

Disrespecting your needs and wishes already, look!!! HE HAD HIS CHANCE AND IT WAS *LONG* BEFORE THIS POINT OF YOUR JOURNEY!!! Too little, too late. And anyway, as its lateness proves (because a man in-love doesn't take such hazardous risks), it's only coming from his urge not to lose his good & convenience thing on the side.

Tell him, 'No, you CAN'T see me. You've had X number of days yet couldn't be a*sed. Until now when it's too little, too late. I need this holiday - *I* - *need* - this holiday (you're not the only one whose needs matter!) and you're not going to take it away from me, period!

See how he works? See him more clearly now? Sod what you need, sod what's good for YOU, sod that you've already paid for it, etc.... Ugh, don't fancy yours much. Sorry, but it's true.

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Oh, and PS: You and I *both* know that if that'd been your husband in his position, YOU WOULDN'T EVEN HAVE GOT TO PRESS 'CLICK' ON THE SLEAZYJET FLIGHT-BOOKING PAGE, never mind having had to wait until you were about to board the damn plane!

Ach, this boy is so transparent. Did I say, wanted to merely 'slap' his face?!

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I wasn't at the airport when I heard from other man, I was sitting by the pool, he arrived here!! I've seen him. He's still here. At a different hotel. He poured his heart out to me.
He's distraught. He doesn't want to lose me. He loves me. And still my heart sings for him. He's flying back home tomorrow. I made him book the flight.

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Well, GIANT KUDOS AGAIN for having had the mettle to order him back home again!

Yes, of COURSE your heart still 'sings for him', nothing's CHANGED yet! You've come on here, got 'diagnosed' as over- and chronically thirsty, been told where to find a *proper* drink (called pure mineral water) from a well you already own that's replenishable as well as elevate-able, quality-wise (with just a tiny filtration system installed), rather than constantly downing all that sugary Coke [very nearly typed something else there, ha-ha!] as does virtually nothing to put paid to your thirst (nor for remotely long enough) each time...*and* makes you fat and unattractive. BUT YOU HAVEN'T HAD A PROPER DRINK OF MINERAL WATER YET! So why on earth would you expect not to still be overly thirsty?

Send him home like you're doing... this next week will feature enough sips of mineral water that you can CEASE being so incredibly thirsty you'd be prepared to sell your own granny in exchange for yet another single or few sips of Coke.

May *BE* this guy's your "One". But if he won't even allow you to put that to the TEST then... What does THAT tell you about what he knows that you don't, and daren't risk you finding out/working out for yourself? Remember what he stands to lose: a position of INCREDIBLE cushiness!

Distraught. Yeah. I can do a convincing job at 'being distraught' - wanna see it? IGNORE IT, IT'S JUST MALE BS. What *isn't* BS, what *can't* be faked, are ACTIONS. The right actions. At the right time. Accompanied by other right actions. And ones meaty enough to have permanent consequences. This is not one of them because - THIS COULD BE "THE END" OF HE AND YOU SO WHERE WAS THE MARRIAGE PROPOSAL???!!!!!

Say nothing of what I've just said, do *not* give him any heads-up on that score, keep everything COMPLETELY under your hat. This, gal, is actually all a Feminist Issue. (You have a good, long think about that tonight and tomorrow after he's left... how that is; you'll see.)

But well done. Nerves and will of steel, obviously. :-)

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Soulmate... "Nerves and will of steel, obviously."....
I'm not sure that's true!!
I'm due to fly home later today, I'm not ready to go home. I'd rather be anywhere else right now.

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Are you not? Well, did you indeed send him home the next day or didn't you?

What happened, anyway - can you take me through the relevants and pertinents in detail?

Do you have to go home today? Is there no way of extending the break/changing your ticket?

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Yes he went home. I had breakfast with him (JUST breakfast) before he flew home. I wanted desperately to tell him to stay but I didn't.
I need to go home...I have to go to work, I can only do so much from here and I can picture the pile on my desk getting higher.
I have dreamt of other man every single night. And now I have to go home to my husband and spend the next 2 weeks playing the perfect wife because husband and on holiday for work. I know we need to truly 'reconnect' (if indeed we were ever truly connected in the first place) but I'm just not ready for that yet.
I cannot imagine my life without other man in it. I can't imagine my family without husband in it. My break hasn't helped a great deal. I think im more confused than I was before I came here.

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JUST breakfast? Well, in that case, I *am* 'sure that's true'!

Do you lack confidence? Is that part of this whole problem, or rather, what sent you looking for the completely wrong solution?

When you say 'dreamt', do you mean literally or thinking about him before you drop off?

Well, it wasn't exactly a LONG break, was it? AND got ruined because of his arrogantly turning up uninvited, yes?

You're going to have to do the 'break' from home, then, aren't you, since he uggered it up. So you've got him to thank for that, not your husband or marriage to blame. Capiche?

Look, from what I've seen so far, you of all people CAN do this, yes you DO have a very strong will. It's just pointed in the wrong direction right now, that's all. But you've got to do anything *properly* or it won't work.

Keep away from the 'Heroin' and instead try the 'Marijuana'. At least that one's Mother Nature's own, as well as home-grown. Just TRY IT. *Pro-per-leeeeeee*.

What harm can possibly come from doing this/treating this as an experiment, anyway? None, that's what. 'Mistress' can damn well wait patiently. It's his own fault he's only the mistress, anyway. Think about it: he could have proposed EVERY DAY for the last two-TWO YEARS, but didn't. Here's his consequence for not doing the right thing. And here's yours for having let him.

You've got to stop letting men 'own and direct' (and manipulate) you! Here's your golden opportunity to learn how! And from there, to have the freedom of mind to make proper, healthy, LONG-LASTING choices that make you *and everyone around you* winners. Which so far you have not.


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...But well done again. :-)

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Very well spoken soulmate ! You're not going to get any better advice than that right there VGF . Good luck ma'am .

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I mean I've literally dreamt about him every night.
I'm back home and just about holding it together. Husband is being so very sweet and lovely. He clearly knows there is something not right with me and is being very attentive. I'm not finding his kindness easy to accept.
Onwards and upwards.
I've not contacted other man. I've got a couple of emails from him but I haven't read them.
I'm back at work tomorrow which will give me some breathing space and a chance to think about something else.

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Apology accepted, LML. ;-) But - oy - where d'ya think *you're* going so soon?

Make yourself useful, if you please. Tell VGF about any time where you or some mate you know has managed to knowingly string a woman along, dupe her into merrily being his free-of-charge concubine (basically) until the day he suddenly *did* meet a woman that lit his candle and was additionally on-paper perfect, situation and circumstances-wise), whereupon he suddenly dropped Little Miss 'But he said he LOVED me!?' like a hot potato (or, alternatively, got bored of her so upgraded her to a new sap)?

(Or anyone around here who has such a story, for that matter?)

She needs to get it through her head that 'I love you to the moon and back' is as *does*, which means, puts a ring on it, *particularly* where that's what the situation badly needs in order to avoid losing her forever 'n ever, Amen.

What *he* did (including when) corresponded only with not wanting to lose his convenient, no-cost, part-time girlfriend substitute/gap-filler.

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Soulmate. I have really appreciated your advice thus far. But I am actually aware of what men are capable of. I have lived a life. I am the one who has broken promises, I knew fine well what I was doing. I wasn't manipulated...I played the game willingly and things have gone way too far. But I am not some sort of victim in this. I am and have been the one who is in control of this situation, I made the decision to let this man into my life and I am the one who married my husband wondering if my reasons were right for doing so.
I'm very confused and upset but that is my doing.
I'm not a victim and nor am I a silly little girl.

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LMG, you need to *cease* 'dreaming' about the OM - by picturing how *clever* this guy must think he is that he can get a commitmentphobic batchelor's dream set-up, and all he has to do is be seen to listen, seen to agree/support, enjoy having company whenever it suits him, cuddle, snog and sh*g, SAY 'I love you, ooh, I do!'...and she's taken in, hook, line and sinker and saving him quite hefty prossie (or new chasing and wooing) costs. Yes, he must secretly feel *very* pleased with himself and his salesmanship and superiority to women.

He thinks you're a SAP, a gullible, trusting idiot. Either that or he truly believed this convenient set-up were fine by you, too, and always would be. But then why did he bother chasing at all if that were the case? Answer: he's an ineffectual, effeminate wimp ("...peeep"). That or (since wimps don't dare stab another guy, let alone a friend in the back for the fact they might get seriously decked or gang-mobbed if his loyal friends decide to join in), he's that lazy he can't be a*sed to start from scratch with another sap or commitmentphobe, in which case the short burst of 'effort' of (EVENTUALLY..."Hhhhh-huuuuuuhrrr, may as well..") chasing after you was worth it ....yet nothing beyond that. Hence you got nothing but [1] a sneaky and deliberate attempt to sabotage your ability to detach from him - so as to keep you exactly where you've been standing - BLOCK you, basically (outright emotional manipulation), and [2] mission accomplished, was then perfectly happy enough to do as he were told and go back home (hence did do).

Also, if he'd thought you debasing yourself like that were something you were happy with and would remain happy with, long-term, same as him, then SURELY he'd have wanted to hear it spelled out, back when you first started crossing the line?

See? Nothing adds up, EXCEPT, that he's a 'friendly' user.

Not all conmen are after money, you know. Some are after avoiding hassle, inconvenience of having to answer to someone, heartache,... and the best of both worlds (single but with the particularly enjoyable relationship perks) without having to lose out personally or sacrifice a regular sex-life, etc.

He doesn't even have to take you out and wine and dine you, does he. Saved by the clandestine bell.

Distraught - at the thought of losing you, his- HIS 'love' - is as distraught *does*: gets down on one knee before the opportunity is lost forever, no second chances (- think about why there'd be no second chance).

So now he's had 2 years with X pressure to act PLUS a further 7 days *and counting* with *immense, XXXXXXX* pressure to prove his I Love Yous have any meaning.

Come ONNNNN. You're an intelligent woman. Stop fantasising about what, romantically, is a pathetic, selfish, 'healed up' beep. You may as well lay back and fantasise about Freddie Kruger or Mr Bean.

"If you liked it then you should have put a ring on it...

Up in the club, we just broke up
I'm doing my own little thing
You decided to dip but now you wanna trip
Cause another brother noticed me
I'm up on him, he up on me
don't pay him any attention
Cause I cried my tears, for three good years
Ya can't be mad at me

Cause if you liked it then you should have put a ring on it
If you liked it then you should've put a ring on it
Don't be mad once you see that he want it
If you liked it then you should've put a ring on it"



Time to dump the using wolf in saintly, benignly-smiling sheep's clothing. Think about THAT for the next 2 weeks and see if you STILL feel like dreaming about him! (Me, I just feel like poking him in the eyeball.)

So that's the topic of him done and dusted (unless you have some of your own thoughts to add?). Now back to you and your societally and morally legal lover...


Did you say your husband is now on 2 week's work leave?

When was the last time you and your husband went on an evening restaurant date or for a weekend away (hotel, camping, whatever)?

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Oh, yes you ARE a victim because up there you were swearing blind that the OM genuinely loved/loves you, whereas events and actions (including lack of) have proven he does NOT. But I never said 'silly little girl' so... that was your own self-insult, not mine.

Did you not realise that (this case, 'relationship) criminals' can meanwhile find themselves victims of other 'criminals'? Note, I didn't SAY you weren't (until you sent him home) a perp, I just said you were a victim.


Anyway, let's not argue about semantics or split-hairs, let's just get the primitive button-pushing/lever-pulling programme underway, yes? I repeat, it's self-kickingly simple. So - to my last two questions?

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PS: Just to be crystal: You've put the side relationship to the test. Now you're going to get a definite reading over what scope and to what degree your marital relationship possesses.

My money's on your husband, he who DID put a ring on it, and was willing to deny himself HALF of what he were entitled to, by birthright, rather than not have you in his life at all. That is what you CALL 'I love you', aka, 'Okay - yes - anything, whatever it'll take!'.


After you've answered those two questions, it would be a great exercise for you to tell me in as much detail as possible about the first 2 years of your budding relationship. How and where you met, what he did to woo and impress you, what it was about him that had YOU agreeing to committing prematurely (given your unfinished recovery process) rather than lose HIM for-good. Etcetera. Include any episodes, if they existed, when you two had a big fight and genuinely feared it were curtains.

And then tell me what qualities, skills and talents he possesses that you've never, or had never at that point, experienced in a man.


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Oh please not effing Beyonce!
I dont get the obsession you seem to have with 'putting a ring on it', as if thays all that matters to a woman. Its quite an archaic idea tbh.
Oh and what exactly do you mean by 'birthright'?
Yes my husband is on 2 weeks breaks from work although I'm back at work tomorrow. we had a weekend away together about 2months ago. It was very nice.
My husband was a friend of a friend of mine. And we had met on a handful of occasions during our twenties. I nevwr really gave him much thought or even really noticed him at that time.
Fast forward a few years. I was a single mother to a 3yr old, very independent, owned my own home, had a very good job, relied on no one but myself for everything.
And one night our mutual friend has a party. And for some reason myself and husband struck up a conversation and continued to talk and laugh all night. We exchanged numbers and he pursued me for a few weeks till I agreed to go out with him...and we started seeing each other.
He told me he loved me about 2months down the line and that was when I told him how I felt about relationships and couldn't deal with being controlled.
He asked me to marry him 18months into our relationship (xmas eve, midnight, champagne, candles, beautiful ring).
How could anyone say no to that? I said yes because I felt safe in our relationship, I never felt he could truly hurt me because I never felt like I needed him. It made sense for us to be together. It felt like it was based in stone cold reality rather than the land of butterflies and fireworks (at least for me. Hubby says differently).
6months after the proposal he wanted to set a date...I felt it was too soon and suggested we live together. He gave up his house and his job to relocate to my town. And that's the 2yr mark right there.
We've never had really hard times or major arguments. And there wasn't a time of thinking it may be over. It was all so very easy.
His qualities...
He's so very kind.
And patient.
And gives me so much freedom. (Who else has a husband who will accept a male best friend and is fine with his wife going to the cinema, for dinner, drinks, nights away with this best friend. Other man has done a lot of wining and dining...we've effectively been dating for years)
I genuinely don't believe he would ever hurt me.
He pulls his weight around the house and with the kids.
He has an amazing sense of responsibility to his family.
He has never made me feel like a trophy on his arm. (Which was a refreshing change)
He accepts me completely for who I am.

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Hello VGF..I've just read your post, well most of it..there's a lot! But there is a lot going on. I'm thinking your head and heart must be pulling so much like an emotional tug of war. And I don't have any great insight to what you can do, because even if I did, regardless of my advice or any you have been given, well I think it's not the advice you want to hear. You already know what to do, and you already know what you are going to do. And yes as someone up there said that fantasy love is just that.

But fantasy or not, it can make you feel special, it can make you smile the biggest smile, from the inside out. It can block out other problems in your life and even block out your husband! Because I'm sure at the very moment you are feeling so wonderful its like a dreamy haze. It's when your husband does something kind as you said, those mini feelings of guilt pop in. I say mini because they are just that.

I feel The bigger picture is your relationship with the other man. And perhaps you are feeling that as your husband loves you so much and because he doesn't know how deep your 'friendship' with the other man is, that you staying with your husband is helping your husband.Do you feel that because your husband clearly loves you and just so happy to be with you that you can continue with your friendship, keeping the other man happy too! Great everyone is happy. That is the fantasy part. Because there is only happiness because vital parts are left out of the story i.e. your husband. But I'm wondering does he have an inkling, and could it be possible that he wants you so much, he doesn't ever want to lose you,so much so that he could be turning a blind eye? Because as you said not many men would feel ok with their wife/gf doing so much with a male friend and not be a teeny bit jealous?

It's a difficult decision to make, you said you cannot imagine a life without either your husband or the other man. But even if you continue in this triangle, and even if your husband does suspect and willing to stay silent (they are just my assumptions) I'm just wondering can you see the other man staying in a part time relationship with you forever? Does he have kids? does he want any? (sorry if that was mentioned somewhere up there, I did read most but I may have missed some)

Living in the moment, the perfect, wonderful loving moment is what most want or dream of. And these euphoric feelings which drown out reality...bills issues...boredom, life! never last forever, nothing ever does. But I'm also a believer of life is short and what you make it, and sometimes we have to choose what makes us happy we have to snatch it!..... before it passes us by.

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"Oh please not effing Beyonce!"


Yes, Effing Beyonce (or Bounce-ay, as I call her). Note I spared you the 'melody', though? Early parole for good behaviour (sending him home), LOL.

Anyway, she didn't write the lyrics (albeit, had input), those, as opposed to her ample a*se and thighs, being entirely the point: The moment Freddie Bean realised you were taking Time Out to re-evaluate your love-life, HE SHOULD HAVE *BEEN COMPELLED* TO PUT A RING ON IT. 'Ring' in this context, if not the real thing (but why ever not if allegedly he's so smitten, eh?), is euphemistic for wanting to secure Exclusivity & Commitment, i.e. 'Leave your husband and come live with me'. Instead of "BOOM!", all you got was "...peep-peep" (- the little engine who couldn't).

And - maybe not to an already married, straying woman, but...everlasting E&C, legally with a ring or not, is what matters to an emotionally healthy one that's undergone a healthy, equal relationship with an equally healthy, equally available male, I think you'll find. As for archaic, so, in actual fact, is the very wiring that 'runs' and dictates the 'mating programme' and its urges and expectations on both sides, despite our conscious, modernity-loving minds arrogantly like to believe otherwise these days. Trust me, that programme, as dictates your facilitation and ability to fall (genuinely) for someone as has you sh*gging like bunnies (trying to make babies despite anything it has no concept of, like the contraceptive pill), is very primitive.

Like a recipe, if you go against the natural instincts for expecting a certain type and order of play, the souffle will at some inevitable point go, PLEUGH. This is why (in case you ever wondered), seemingly contradictorily, top business women that'd originally wholeheartedly agreed or even themselves requested their spouse give up his lesser-paying job to play house-husband, begin *involuntarily* losing massive respect and admiration for him after a year or so of it (often leading to affairs and/or divorce). And why feminists who normally growl or glare at 'sexist door-openers/holders' suddenly find themselves tittering girlishly once their own lover does it, and find themselves getting 'quite turned on, actually/strangely' (actual, well-worn quote) whenever he gets all masterful (the right way, I mean). All the driving programme cares about - having ticked Great Chemistry (as indicates you'd make excellent babies) is stuff like, 'Is he mentally and physically strong, healthy, nurturing, proactive, loyal and just all-round manly enough to steadfastly look after and provide for me *and* X number of mini-mes (for 18 long years(!) at least) once they're firmly wrapped round my ankles and putting me out for the hunting-foraging count?'.

So what *you* think you want or don't want is neither here nor there if the man has the instinctual urge to make you all his. I mean, why do you think we have anti-stalking/harrassment laws?

What is it you tend to use your noddle over? Although understandable under the single, career-mum circumstances, in this arena you're coming across as somewhat ignorant/inexperienced and accordingly naive and gullible. Sorry, but it's true. So it's back to my saying, WITH respect, please show deference to those who know so much more than you about such matters. Or next time it'll be Taylor Swift's "Trouble". ;-p

By birthright, I meant that your husband was born ready-programmed to want the real McCoy and the FULL McCoy, meaning, he, for whatever reasons - possibly his own, back then, 'wheelchair' - actively chose to go against his own instinctual needs and desires rather than not make you 'his' at all. I expect he hoped you'd in time get used to it and grow a bigger appetite?

So it could be *you* who refused to get out of your wheelchair. Yeah, well, your legs are just fine, EC-tually.

Walkies time... towards finding out what wonderous amazement life REALLY has to offer. Put it this way, who, on their deathbed, says: I wish I'd spent more time in the office. Natural riches are far more satisfying and life-enhancing, and we work in order to live (which hinges entirely on pairbonding and procreating), not the other way around. Case closed and you need to stop hiding from a chance at *true* happiness.


"we had a weekend away together about 2months ago. It was very nice."

Good to hear. However, you're trying to heat up this pan of milk to boiling point from cool, not simmering. Right now 'nice' indicates just warm. So you need more frequent dating, alone, without the kids, than this, so that 'nice' becomes 'bloody lovely!' becomes 'the best time ever!'. Once a week Date Night...why you need to ask around for a good babysitter as your first item on the To Do list.


"He asked me to marry him 18months into our relationship (xmas eve, midnight, champagne, candles, beautiful ring). How could anyone say no to that?'


Exactly! He pushed the right buttons and pulled the right levers, which he did because his own buttons and levers had been activated in-love : "I wann-id all, AND I WANNIT NOWWW" (sing it, Freddie!). That's how it works. However, the rest of the pathway can always be deliberately road-blocked... not least with a big, fat wheelchair.

Would I ever go back to being a CP FWB-er, knowing what I know and feel now? EFFING, CHUFFING *NO AND A THOUSAND TIMES NO*.

"I said yes because I felt safe in our relationship, I never felt he could truly hurt me because I never felt like I needed him. It made sense for us to be together. It felt like it was based in stone cold reality rather than the land of butterflies and fireworks (at least for me. Hubby says differently)."

He warmed you - the pan of milk - to simmering. But then you said, Don't bring that flame any closer!, and he did as bid (aided by his own 'Once Bitten' reticence, I shouldn't wonder)... didn't have any other choice, unless he wanted to set you free again... which, obviously, he didn't. Plus, you never LET yourself need him, did you... and yet look how attached and excited you can get (to a greater extent anyway, if not the whole hog) when you don't rely on the male ONE IOTA. Yes, you are a commitmentphobe. But that's not an innately natural state (were it, you'd be happy with your situation), it's a reaction to dislike, dread or fear and/or bad experiences.

After all - ask yourself: why don't commitmentphobes just stay forever single and love their right hand instead of using and duping people or striking tacit deals with other CPs? Answer: conflict: conscious mind says no, unconscious (aided by the sex drive) says, 'Eff off, *I* run this show, not you!'...and there commenceth the tug-of-war: half of you trying to do a Relationship (but achieving only half) and the other half trying to stay single (but achieving only half). Put another way, half an arrow gets only half a bullseye.

One has to be (cough!) especially stubborn to keep the tug going in stalemate year upon year. But nature always wins in the end when it concerns something healthy, natural and pre-ordained/programmed. Always.

You, missus, unwittingly have transferred half your secret affections for your husband to (safer) Mr Peeps. And then you wonder why you (half) can't bear to detach.

Say it with me: I have been a complete banana.

I mean - look at this:

"6months after the proposal he wanted to set a date...I felt it was too soon and suggested we live together. He gave up his house and his job to relocate to my town. And that's the 2yr mark right there."

Sorry-what-he did WHAT???? Gave up his HOUSE *and* JOB *and* STOMPING GROUND (*and* all that sailed in it)? Let's just tell it like it is, shall we? HE GAVE UP HIS LIFE AS HE KNEW IT FOR YOU.

You've ALREADY got your very own Mr Soulmate-in-waiting (albeit obviously not having the same extent of iron-will persistence and pushiness as mine) and you've been WASTING ITS POTENTIAL! Right, I am *very* encouraged and enthused after hearing that! (Uh-oh, indeed.) This is going to be a piece of piss. Because you don't even NEED to be in-love with him already or suspecting it mightn't be possible - HE is the one with all the power in that respect (whether feminists like it or not). So all you need to do is 'invite', i.e. trigger his stunted programme into re-running...the one that met no real success to keep it running and next-staging as now lies post-suppressed dormant but re-rouse-able (- house, job, stomping ground, champers, candlelight, gorgeous ring, him trying to overshadow Xmas, agreeing to anything, patience of a saint, say so).

We're going to turn your 'safe brother' into your EVEN SAFER super-lover. So you're going to cease being such a romantic clucker in order to realise, with a big, fat DOH!, that there is no position in life safer and securer than being in mutual, no roadblocks Love. THE REAL DEAL DONE PROPERLY, I mean.

Got another little song for ya: This time I want you to listen to the music as well as read the lyrics:


(I'll bloody say! PS: I provided Nick Jonas with the inspiration for that song... told him all about you (mwa-ha).)

I very strongly suspect that with just enough 'come hithers', your husband is going to chuck you over his shoulder and carry you straight up to the bedroom and for the first time ever, LET RIP!...growling as he does so, I imagine. (Have you ever had a man in bed literally growling with abject lust as he literally crawls like a stealth tiger across the mattress towards you?) You're going to have a face like Sally in When Harry Met. But one that doesn't ever come off (and even if not on your face, is still there 24/7 in your head). Start practising with a coathanger now.

Christ, woman, it's like you've all along been holding the formula for a personal version of a cure to cancer but haven't ever bothered getting it out of your pocket!

Ye gods. You've been shielding yourself from the entirely wrong bloke.

Oh, well... we all make mistakes, said the tortoise as he climbed, Red-faced, off the rock.

Let's just get this party started...



1. What do you mean, single mother? Literally or as in, divorcee? If the former, are we talking preggers and abandoned?

2. When was the last time you flirted with or teased hubby in a romantic-sexual way?

3. Have you ever worn a (tasteful, classy) babydoll with stockings and suspenders and felt what it instantly does to you (yes, you)? And have you ever felt like a trophy *and, simultaneously* an admired and respected goddess on his arm? (You *can* have it all (and better) with the one fella if he's the right fella. You actually can.)


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Nick Jonas!? Really. You'll have to make a vast improvement to your musical recommendations if you want me to click on it. My ears are bleeding at the thought of it.
Your answers...
1...single mother as in on my own with my child from my last relationship. (I wasnt married to him...crikey maybe that's why that went so wrong...he shoulda put a ring on it and i'd have been legally obliged to put up with his shit)
2... The physical/sexual side of things with husband is fine. Of course I tease and flirt with him.
3...And yes I've dressed up for him...of course I have.
But Agent Provocateur ain't what's needed to fix this.

It's not about romantic gestures or diamond rings or bits of silk and lace.
If you're going to take me through a step by step guide in how to seduce my husband...don't bother patronising me...I'm perfectly capable of that. (In fact it could well be said it's that side of me that's got me into the trouble I'm in!)

And while I appreciate your advice I think you seem to have a very black and white view of what a relationship should be in your experience. But relationships/marriages come in many shapes and a vast array of colours! Just as everyone has different needs and expectations from them.

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And yes... I've had the 'growl' of course I have.

Sex is not the problem. Nor is it the answer!

Same as a marriage proposal from other man isn't the problem.

I don't think wanting my own time and space makes me a commitmentphobe, maybe it just makes me different from you and the stereotypical woman.

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Really? What's next - you sending me to Coventry or trying to get the other girls in the playground to gang up on me? "Oooh, scaaared...".

1. You have my word your ears won't bleed. Not from that, anyway.

I reiterate (since you're clearly having trouble taking things in unless they're explained repeatedly to you): putting a ring on it was euphemistic for Exclusivity & Commitment (both of which are verbs first, nouns second) - something you evidently know woefully too little about. As for Jonas:

"Mummy, why DID you and daddy divorce?" / "Because, for one thing, I couldn't stand a certain melody" / "Oh. Why not, Mummy?" / "It wasn't 'cool' enough." / "...???".

2. There's nothing wrong, allegedly, with the physical side of your relationship, hence the ultimate litmus there is, comes up as reading, (what was the word?...oh, yes -) FINE.

Yes, I remember 'fine' (zzzzzz...).

3. Note [probably not] I avoided giving the act a label at all, let alone the humdrum bog-standard of "sex"? That's a Gotcha (and you're too easy).

'Fine' and 'sex'. Be still, my beating heart.

"And yes I've dressed up for him...of course I have."

Which night was that?

Yes, the physical side of your relationship must be smoking-hot and your Agent Provocateur garb torn to smithereens by now.

'Perfectly capable' is, I think you'll find, as perfectly capable *does* - which is *not*, results in a total train-wreck of a marriage and love-life-... wait, those concepts should be one and the same, shouldn't they? Ah, but not in your 'expert' case, they're not. You need a separate man for each, apparently.

Well, if you're not confusing growling with retching, given how you think biting the hand that feeds you is such a clever thing to do, then - and this is admittedly a long-shot, but...maybe because you've never tried these remedies and more whilst *NOT* CONDUCTING A LONG-TERM EMOTIONAL-SEXUAL AFFAIR WITH ANOTHER MAN ON THE SLY? (Woah, what a totally radical idea!)

4. 'Experience': Mine and countless others, actually. We must *all* be wrong, then - and you right. Gosh, strange how we're so much happier and loved-up than you, isn't it?....shouldn't it be the other way around? (Jeez, life's such a bleedin' mystery, ain't it?).

5. No, I'm betting what got you 'into this trouble' [- pff, mere 'trouble', she calls it] is that very lazy-minded attitude, including ruddy great chip on your shoulder, that you've just oh-so-proudly puked out for this whole forum to see. (Did you remember to flush and wash your hands like a good girl?)

6. No you don't ('appreciate my advice'...or the fact someone/anyone knows better than you, "for once"). Because it would mean a bit of HARD WORK for a change ("meh!").

7. Not *just* wanting (too much of) your own time and space, etcetera, no. Amongst myriad other things - that classic textbook CP response you've just come back with, as well (yawn). It's like watching Thomas The Tank Engine for the thousandth time.

8. Vast array of colours. Yeah. Healthy and Unhealthy. Guess which one yours is - go on?

9. Who said I was a woman?

So did you have anything intelligent to add or is that 'it'?

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Soulmate , she has made it clear a long time ago that this isn't a woman seeking advice thread , this is an I got this off my chest I feel so much better thread ( no offense intended VGF ) . She had stated more than once that she is in control , she knows what she has to do and had seen any advise useful just had something for defense on each advise ( still not being rude , I've kept up with every post and have waited impatiently to see the outcome ). My personal opinion this is a confession post or a way to express all without any judgement that means anything , which is fine , please do continue !!

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Soulmate...the physical side of my relationship with my husband is actually very good. I just don't particularly feel I need to go into details about it at all. And as I said way up there my relationship with other man isn't about sex. That has been a tiny percentage of our relationship/friendship.

I assumed (perhaps wrongly) you were female. My mistake.

Livingmylife... You're probably correct in saying I wanted/needed somewhere to offload this. And an anonymous internet forum seemed like a good place.

The thing is...without knowing absolutely everything and the people involved (or at least me) it's very difficult for anyone to give advice on the situation.

Quite what I'm going to do I still don't know.
But the road which you're trying to take me down Soulmate isn't the one for me.

Thanks all the same.

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VeryGoodFriend I found this thread yesterday and have ploughed through it all. I find your situation heartbreaking and from all you have said I think you're in the unfortunate position of having 'settled' for the wrong man and then met your soulmate.
I don't see the nasty horrible man in your other man that soulmate seems to see.
Let me tell you my story...
I was married to a fantastic man who was a wonderful husband and father. We had fun together, sex was good, we laughed we were really best friends. And then I met another man through friends and we got on so well. I felt he really understood me and we were just so good together. We were friends for years before we 'crossed any lines' (as you put it) and when those lines had been crossed we stopped it and started up again many times over the course of about 5yrs. All the while my marriage continued as it always had, the only difference being I was in love with someone else who was also in love with me.
To cut a long story short, I told my husband I needed some time as I wasn't sure I was happy in our marriage any more so we separated , it didn't go down very well at all but he accepted it. I also told my other man that I needed some time and that didn't go down well either. But after a couple of months (during which I had contact with both husband and other man though I slept with neither of them) I realised I couldn't stay with my husband because myself and other man were in love. I told husband I didn't love him in that way and I wanted a divorce.
Anyway 2yrs later I stood at the altar with my now only man (not my other man anymore) and we have been together for 12yrs blissfully happy. Myself and my ex husband are still good friends and have a great relationship and raise our children together.
Life is too short not to be happy. I'm not saying the path I took is the right one for you. I'm just letting you know that not everyone reading this has such patronising thoughts towards you and such negative thoughts toward your other man. We have no control over who we fall in love with and often the greatest love affairs come from what seems an impossible situation.
I've discussed this with my now husband and he's also read it and he says that all he can see from what you've said is that your other man is in exactly the same place he was all those years ago, completely in love with a married woman with children and in an awful position of wanting the woman he loves but doesn't want to be the guy that breaks up a family. I too feel sympathy for him and also for you
I really hope you find the right path to take. But please remember only you can choose your happiness.

I'm having an affair...

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(Psst, everyone! HALO1 wants you to know before reading any further that she found this thread - and this forum (according to her profile, ergo it must be true) - only 'yesterday' (no, really).)

1. Thanks for ensuring to bring that to everyone's immediate attention, it was obviously something you felt were *very* important as a lead-statement backdrop. (Cripes, can't think why...)

2. Oh, really - you and your equally immoral, aider-abettor (- same thing) husband have no trouble leaping to the defence of other immoral, adulterous cheaters and aider-abettors whilst having all the trouble in the world finding the basis for questioning this particular 'mistress' in this particular case despite sound basis provided by an account of his behaviour? NO WAY! I'd more have expected you to want to see them both burned at the stake! (Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice...)

It's called, cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias, aka being morally corrupt and fashioning excuses to get around the truth. Not so those of us who've never cheated, not even when presented with the usual pressures and temptations, nor ever would, period.

3. In the awful position of wanting the woman he loves but not wanting to be the guy that breaks up a family? Ahhh, POOR HIM. And yet - storing up multiple stabs through the heart for the day the (this case) poor husband (and his kids) cottons on and can feel the lot in one, massively impactful hit is perfectly okay, is it? Course.

That's not caring and trying not to do the wrong thing. In actual fact, I think you'll find it's called cowardice...purely selfish self-preservation added to the original self-obsessiveness attempting to PASS ITSELF OFF as not having wanted to cause devastation.

How could anyone possibly allege not to want to be the one to break up a family WHILST IN THE MIDST OF 50% HELPING TO BRING ABOUT JUST THAT?! Such a glaringly contradictory claim, if they truly, wholeheartedly believed it, would just make them bordering on insane.

PS: You weren't friends. You were mutual circlers. True friends don't drag you down/let you drag them down and drag others with you.

More news for you from one in the know: it's impossible to enter into any *worthwhile* state of mental-emotional or physical intimacy if you don't both possess, amongst numerous other adult, goodly qualities, bravery. Courageousness is one of the things it takes to be capable of tolerating the part-and-parcel, constant, high vulnerability that true, human mergers demand. Wimps just...well, do exactly that - wimp out. That or make-do with Relationship Lite. But you can certainly THINK you're close as you plod along like mere pals or quasi brother and sister that happen to copulate together. Again, you'd need a yardstick and, since you've automatically just shown yourself to lack what it takes to have had one to put under your experiential belts, you'll just have to spend the rest of your lives in that state of abject delusion, followed by suspecting wholly disturbingly on your deathbeds that you never got to experience the real thing. Also, since loyalty, conscientiousness, steadfastness, tenacity, tolerance, endurance, understanding, patience, generosity, sense of responsibility, obligation, SELF-SACRIFICE, EMPATHY and-and-and...basically insisting on always doing the right thing and sticking with your major, concreted-in choices, no matter what, are requisites for becoming a spouse's dedicated, 24/7 home-carer, all you cheaters had better hope to high hell that your 'perfectly okay' spouses don't bail on you after five minutes of your becoming bed-ridden dependants (recurrent cancer and chemo, for example) who are 'not much fun any more'.

I expect at this point you're turning to reassure one another that neither of you would *ever* do such a sh*tty thing, no-no-NO! (You tend to wear only ONE glove but not the other, do you?) Believe each other, go on - it's a lot faster and easier than any alternative that involves a bit of mental hard work.

Your idea of love is highly warped and would be disturbing, were it not for the fact I'm so accustomed to hearing such self-defensive gumph. I do imagine quite a lot of morally upstanding posters and lurkers beyond those that have already posted are trying not to vomit in disgust ever since they read 'you', though.

You don't attract special unless you endeavour to BE special. Again, you've shown yourselves incapable. To myself and the healthy-minded, higher-functioning (thankfully still) majority with high, working morals and realistic principles to suit, love means wanting the BEST for that person at all times, not the opposite by way of encouraging them to lower themselves for our own ends. Had Mr Soulmate or I been otherwise engaged when we, bam!, fell in love, we'd have made it crystal-clear we'd be refusing to take another step unless and until such time as the other had well and truly extricated themselves from said relationship. In fact, had we realised the other were already committed when chatting each other up then, the fact they apparently saw such choice of action and behaviour even *acceptable* would have been the instant dealbreaker. There's the difference that makes every difference everywhere to all that's good in this world. And - not going to happen (because we're hard workers) - but, if either one of us felt even the merest attraction for anyone else, let alone temptation, we would rush straight home to report it to the other for the ruddy great warning sign it represented where increased TLC to our relationship were concerned.

People who bust a gut their whole lives to become unwavering soulmate material remain their whole lives qualified to cast the first stone. Judgemental (in the negative, non-productive sense), self-righteous, superiority-complex-ridden idiots ugger off after casting it, having got what they wanted, whereas those who see things as they are, including life laws that say the strong should always try to help the weak, stick around and try to do just that. But HERE'S a crazy idea: if you don't like condescension or patronisation, how's about not putting yourself into positions that attract and merit it in the FIRST place? (Nah... easier just to whinge about being criticised or the tone of it, isn't it.)

So if up there is your type's definition of what makes Soulmate Pie (add two spoonfuls of selfish idiot, stir and slam in the oven) then he and I and the rest of decent, loving folk feel very sorry for you and VASTLY morally superior.

You're therefore just just DELUDING yourselves, you and your so-called lovers, that, in spite of the fact you headless matches each struck your heads against the matchbox-strip before diving into the grate, your love-fire is, "fact", a roaring, cosy, last-able one ("...mmmm, yesss, that's riiiight, look at all those lovely red-hot flaaaames, yessss, time for your medication, Mr & Mr Jones")...

(But there you go, VGF: as foretold - another set of morally-corrupt, disloyal, weak-minded adulterers that lazily indulge in the belief there's nothing wrong with you or what you've been doing and would have you know it because if YOU'RE okay then so must they be and if THEY'RE okay (which they've just 'proven' by saying they in their own estimation 'are'), then so must you be (...dizzy...). So - yes - go on - keep cheating! That way, they'll be able to feel so much better about themselves, as well as continue to misread a biding of time on the part of the betrayee for the sake of the kids' equilibrium plus a quiet life in the meantime, for genuine amicability...common illusion and delusion and later nasty shock. After all, if enough other people are doing it, that must somehow make it alright. (Welcome to your world and its lovely, wholly trustworthy, wholly cooperative occupants.)

4. Your type in your textbook situation insist repeatedly on trying convincingly to act dumb even in the face of basic, 'childsplay' knowledge, cutting logic, concrete evidence and what it all is established to mean, whilst living a dummies' life, and then have the temerity to whinge about getting talked to like you're dummies? Priceless. You really do want to have your cake and eat it across the board, don't you... "I need a Green sky. THE SKY *IS* GREEN! Now I need a Green-with-Purple-spots sky. THE SKY *IS* GREEN-WITH-PURPLE-SPOTS!" (I imagine your sky must resemble Edvard Munch's "The Scream" by now.) Nope, the emperor *still* isn't wearing any clothes, let alone any new ones. He's transparent and overly wart-ridden, too.

The right not to be socially, morally judged or condescended to is earned via [1] CRIME-ABSTINENCE, [2] ATTEMPTS TO ATONE. If you'd atoned, no way would you be comfortingly patting the back of someone in your own, past set-up. No! WAY! So I will take the right I've earned to judge you and patronise you until you cry blood.

5. For every physical entity there is a psychological equivalent.

All of you cheating delinquents seem to believe that being in love automatically gives you some sort of special dispensation or even downright 'diplomatic immunity' - licensed to emotionally kill or maim (or in the case of the still-forming kids - psychologically). IT DOES NOT. You are not 007, you're just plain 00 or -1. This is self-proven when, what sets- the ONLY thing that sets apart human beings with any goodly capacity from mere animals and other primates - is a CONSCIENCE (as stems from *self*-consciousness, which itself stems from an awareness of time, reality and truth), not pretending to have one or having one yet choosing to ignore it and getting creative with ways to avoid its sensation because whatever that guilt and shame would compel you into doing/not doing doesn't suit your aims....a functioning conscience that actually compels you to always bust a gut to do the right and decent thing as makes truly-madly-deeply love even possible, whereby love itself *doubles* that compulsion, especially when faced with life's menu featuring [1] Right, versus [2] Wrong, shoved up against your noses, and which by the same token is what STOPS you from doing massive wrong. (I expect you'd have claimed you couldn't read, either.)

There's a diagnosis for people with non- or under-functioning consciences, you know [- probably not].

...Psychological equivalent. Your type are emotional murderers, no two ways about it. Worse, in fact, when such injuries are far longer-lasting as well as harder and trickier to fix and heal than the physical. At least when you're dead you don't have to day after day pretend you're not. You basically ruin other people's lives (and major organs) in your quest for self-gratification. If NOT long-term or permanently ruined, then that is purely down to their strength of character, including determination and self-discipline (and same towards their kids). So, come the time when the courts introduce laws against emotional abuse of this type as well as 'coercive' (a process already well underway), your kind will get sent down for up to 14 years. About time too.

You people can try to re-cast yourselves as loftier until you're Blue in the face. But, sadly for you, you still can't alter the truth in the shoddiness of choices of sustained actions as create an inevitably cruel and violent way in which to 'tell' your loyal, faithful spouse that never did you any wrong, that you want out, rather than to stay and try to fix, and propel him and your kids into Intensive Care.

Basically, you're the definition of somewhere between Not Nice People and Truly Nasty People. And I say that wholly dispassionately. *Psychologically*-speaking, you're children in grown-up suits who've been given real guns to play with.

6. If asked whether you'd die for your children, what would you say? You can't ever again with even a modicum of truth say you'd give up your lives for them without being outright liars, for the simple fact of having proven a total unwillingness to self-sacrifice to a far lesser degree in merely denying yourselves Option 1 in the dual-optioned, Good -v- Bad methods menu, instead having opted for Option 2, the underhanded, unfair, wholly avoidable one, during your pursuit to pleasure that 'displeases' everyone else it touches. You can't even protect your children by failing to devastate one half of 'their world' - their father. You KNOWINGLY *USE* your spouses... keep them conned into believing everything is still perfectly okay...kept in the dark and fed nothing but sh*t as if they and the marriage itself, their very reality anchorage thus basis for health and sanity - those things upon which the kids' own healthy development relies - mean nothing more to you than safetynets on-legs for insuring YOUR happiness rather than having to be on your own - 'pleasure-less' - for 5 minutes, i.e. TOOLS FOR SELF-GAIN.

Conning and lying to people long-term, even those closest to you, seeing them as tools for achieving selfish gain before discarding them.
Lacking enough conscience, guilt, shame.
Lacking empathy.

Again, there's a diagnosis for that. Try Googling it, see what you get.

7. Again - because you need it repeated: Decent, optimally healthy-minded people who fall in love, genuinely without having intended to, tend to, right from the moment it happens, bravely RUSH to inform their spouse of the obvious meaning contained in their having earlier that day found themselves *capable* of being attracted to that extent to A. N. Other to begin with and how it serves to expose or highlight marital holes that need mere patching. It's called, Houston, we have a problem. They then bravely knuckle down with their spouse. If all fixing attempts still don't work, they then consult a professional fixer. If that too fails, they concede intrinsic incompatibility (not enough chemistry; too far gone on completely different pages headed in completely different directions for any backtracking) and mutually start the amicable divorce process. They then focus on getting their kids through that tough life transformation, sheltering them from stuff they *don't* need to know for coping, while they themselves allow either time alone to heal and/or enhance their personal calibre or consult the aid of a professional, until such time as their single life is ticking along nicely like clockwork, and same for the kids' lives, as is one of the proofs they're FIT to be someone's worthwhile relationship partner.

If you love yourself you can't bring yourself to hurt yourself unnecessarily. If you love someone *else*, either equally or even more so, you can't bring yourself to hurt them unnecessarily. Thinking you're in-love and feeling accordingly weakened does NOT get you off the adulterous hook any more than being poor lets you off the thieving one. A smooth-running society, in fact, humankind itself, *relies* on fidelity.

You lot and your so-called lovers have gangrenous legs and are sat there going, 'Nope, I can't see or smell anything either!'.

Duping yourselves.

You see? Not even YOU can trust or believe in anything you say. Ever again.

8. Being able, same as children over 5, to recognise which of the two most obvious solutions aligns solely with healthy-mindedness as is known to power a truly healthy, happy life (i.e. without anyone else having to suffer for it in the process), is not a subjective judgement call. It's a fully-established and -recognised, bona fide science that for too long has got consistently, repeatedly, lastingly, *indisputably* borne out by reality. The sky is *not* green with purple spots just because you've convinced yourself it is for how it suits better than the truth as could otherwise (potentially) activate your conscience. If you insist it is, you're just telling everyone else that your eyes don't function properly. BERBOM.

Greatest love-affairs, my a*se. Self-obsessed people don't have a CLUE what real love feels, sounds, and acts like, and by the same token, NEVER acts like nor would ever dream of. Course not - you're all too consumed with only yourselves and your own needs and feelings and sod anyone else's, let alone your supposed favourite person in the world that you "confirmed" was such when you said, I do, and sod how your actions are going to impact on your poor, innocent kids whose health and happiness rely totally ON your making good, sensible, self- and other-enhancing choices that they can witness or be aware of, i.e. choosing to behave like a capable, decent adult thereby capable of staying responsible for their welfare and safety.

Say goodbye to your kids ever really wanting to put their trust in you again once they're old enough to know what they're doing on that score. I wouldn't like to be you when they start dating and its magnitude all clicks more comprehensibly into place in their minds (brace-brace-brace!).

Basically, being in-(cupboard-)love or *any* type does not suddenly give you the right to do as you please, when you please, HOW you please, and consequences including victimising the innocent be damned. Whether you types confess (just to offload or gain unfair advantage) or not - truth outs. So this is not about being in-love and never was. It's about the grade of participant, i.e. what happens when you're a dud that passes yourself off as healthy rather than do the work involved in being healthy and marries accordingly, or when you're the one that mistakenly or foolishly marries that dud. This doesn't mean you're not an eventually useful tool (catalyst) for the other person to learn and self-improve by, but you could 'achieve' that by your own hand rather than leaving it up to fate and meanwhile actually or near-fatally wounding them. Same for not thinking you are above the law when it comes to going out and mugging- sorry, stealthily pick-pocketing little old ladies' pensions through the fact of having money problems: "Please, little old lady/friend/relative/government, could you spare some change as I'm very poor and suffering?'.

Cheaters are emotional and mental abusers - weak, selfish, cowardly - whose abuse gets deliberately executed under the table where it's pitch-black...but only for as long as the lightswitch remains un-flicked. But there is a switch. And there is a hand. Lots, actually. And then there is a higher hand. Each with their OWN perfectly-working consciences as compels them to at some, whatever point, reach down and go *FLICK*.

"Houston, we have a problem". Rocket science, apparently.

See ya. (*Really* wouldn't wanna be ya.)


I was 'offering' to coach VGF to do the right thing in the correct and moral, albeit, BACKTRACKING way, if she felt her 'mistress' were truly her one. By her own admission, she was not sure on that score, and I could precisely see in the lack of man-in-love/healthy specimen actions why not (and, again, I'm not talking about cupboard-love, but the real, healthy thing as *cannot*, laughably, allow that known 'time-share' set-up to continue for one second past the point of first awareness). However, as this thread shows, not until faced with the most hard and painful juncture of that 'detox' programme (no doubt aided by OM still prodding her) did she suddenly, too late in the day, think to inform me that it wasn't, actually, the road she were wanting to go down (funny, that).

(So we can add Time- & Resource-Waster to your selfishness rap-sheet, can we, VGF?)

If you sit back in the dentist's chair and say, 'Look at that tooth, it hurts/is bothering me and I want it to stop...I'd obviously rather not but I know I have to', then you make it obvious you want the dentist to assist. If merely at the very late point where the hypodermic looms you say, 'Oh, I wasn't looking for intervention!' (particularly because someone who thinks they're somehow being clever or has their own agenda suggested it first) and vacate the chair, you have not fooled the dentist or anyone with half a brain-cell one iota. Nor would he be fooled if even your total friends and family, or anyone else with their own agenda, burst in to back you up. You have just let yourself down (yet again). Which is called, Own Worst Enemy.

Own Worst Enemy Pie, mmm, yummy.


Now the upshot:

This forum is called People's Problems and its ethos is to try to provide solutions to those who actually want and need them in order to get out of whatever muddy pit and, if of their own doing, walk a straighter line to get straighter, i.e. healthier, life results for them and everyone that they 'touch' or that 'sails in them'. If this, all of a convenient sudden, 'is' and always 'was' just a guilty-conscience offloading and back-patting thread then it serves zero purpose for the power of societal good and repair, as well as goes against design purpose, which in real and meaningful terms means it abuses the owner's intention, which was to use his technical skills to - 'man/woman in the mirror'-style - DO GOOD IN THE WORLD AND ENCOURAGE, VIA LEG-UPS, OTHERS TO DO LIKEWISE.

_________________________________________________________THREAD OFFICIALLY CLOSED__________________________________________________________

(And that's yet another perk for continually busting a gut to be in a position to judge: you get given a gavel for having the last word and stopping the rot. ;-))

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