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Hurt and confused

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My fiance and I have been together for four years. We are best friends and have an amazing connection. He had a promiscuous past but I seen past all that. Loyalty and not cheating were a foundation of our love and trust. I loved him so much despite my damaged past that I had a baby with him. When the baby was 8 weeks old he won a trip through work and went to France for a week. He knew no one on the trip. And suffers a drinking problem that has gotten worse over the last twelve months. A woman on the same trip (nationwide prize so people from different branches were going) started flirting heavily with him on the first flight while they were both drunk. He said no. Once they got to France, on the first night there they were the last two left drinking. He got extremely drunk and she came on strong again. He slept with her. They avoided each other for the next four days (she is married with three kids also) and he did not tell me. Blocked out what he had done even to himself. On the last night there, she came to the room he shared with another guy and they had more to drink. He got extremely drunk and they slept together again. Both times were in secluded parts of the hotel and then they seperated. They did not share a bed. Nothing else happened between them. Nothing at all happened when sober. He grossed out looking at her throughout the week and couldnt believe what he had done. After doing it the second time he felt sick the next day. He came home and told me everything. Was brutally honest. Given up drinking completely. Gone to counselling where he has discovered he was anxious about the trip and out of his depth and slipped back into old ways as a result as well as the drinking taking him over. He had never travelled out of our small country before and knew no one. He had no attraction towards her whatsoever and as I have seen photos of her I know that is true. My problem is.. how do I move on? My thoughts consume me and I get so angry and hurt. I know he has true remorse and will do anything to not lose me. But how do I stop the hurt? How do I stop picturing it all? I've never been promiscuous like he has so I can't understand having sex without feelings or with someone I'm not attracted to. We have a three month old baby to think of and just bought a house. Please someone help me. Deep down under the hurt I am sure I want to make it work. As I am nobody's fool and I know he is genuinely shocked and disgusted with himself. Thank you for reading - please help me unnderstand how a man can make the same mistake twice.

Hurt and confused

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Hi, I'm sorry that you are going through all of this and with a newborn. I can't believe how difficult it must have been for you to sit down and listen to all these details about what your fiance did. What I am concerned about, the most, is that you guys have made some serious commitments to each other but are not even married and he has already betrayed your trust so deeply. Your response to it, more than anything, definitely opens or shuts the door for more of this behaviour. You have said that he has cheated someone, maybe not you, in the past. First of all, you need to put yourself and your baby first. This was no small thing. It does not matter whether there was booze or no feelings involved. This has damaged your relationship and damaged you. You are allowed to feel hurt. It does not matter the reasoning behind it, because the end result and what happened is what matters. It does not mean he does not love you but it definitely shows that there are issues with commitment on his behalf that perhaps need dealing with before going forward, if you want to move forward. The cheating was probably the result of some other issue on his part that has not been addressed and to shrug it under the rug... I mean. It sounds like an excuse. He needs to deals with his issues. Why does he cheat? What is he looking elsewhere? Dig dip. Because that whole "I was drunk"... I mean, he needs to face the fact that this is not the first time he has done this in his life and that there is a problem he is not addressing. From reading all of this, it sounds you are doing a lot of the excusing for him as you so desperately want to forgive him and want to believe this is a one time thing (or two time?). I think by him telling you all these details he just got it out of the way with his guilt and you are allowing him to get away with it. If you do want to move forward. Then, be strong and make sure to let him know that he has permanently caused damage to you and your relationship and that this will take time and work to get over. If you manage to be able to trust him again, which is very difficult, you will need to see a change in his behaviour. It is good he has stopped drinking as it seems that the drinking is a out of bigger problem he has. Most importantly, you are not the problem. He has a problem. Hang in there. Be strong. And good luck.

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Thanks Crystal. I hear what you are saying. Let me answer a few of your points. He is not blaming it solely on alcohol. I mentioned he is going to counselling and realised he was anxious on the trip. That he uses alcohol as an escape mechanism. Amor of things from his past have cropped up from therapy that he has never confronted before. He has been completely faithful up till this. And he is a brilliant partner in every other way. All our friends are envious of our relationship. We are affectionate, loving and best mates. And a great dad too. He works in emergency services so sees so bad traumatic stuff on a regular basis. Before me he would block it out get drunk and have meaningless sex. But since we got together he talks to me about what he sees. He's always called me his rock. I suppose on the other side of the world.. anxious and out of his comfort zone he slipped up really badly. I'm not making excuses for him, just putting all of the story out there so that I can get the best advice. What he did haunts him everyday. I know true remorse when I see it. The other day I out of the blue showed him affection and he welled up with tears. I'm ashamed to say over the last six weeks since I found out I have been violent towards him twice. I am a boxer so it wasnt a dainty slap.. He has taken this and all of the verbal accusations etc on the chin and handled it. Because he knows how traumatised I am. The giving up drinking is a huge thing. He has been a drinker for over twenty years. But it had really ramped up over the last year. I do want to forgive him. I just don't know if I can.

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First of all, it is good that he is seeking help. Secondly, it is normal that what he did haunts you, and that is still hurts, and that it is difficult to forgive him. Forgiving is a painful process. It sounds like you are in a lot of pain. The violence probably comes from stuff you want to say to him that you can't express with words. He takes it because of the gravity of what he did and your reaction is understandable. Not that it is O.K. to be violent. Try to speak and communicate with him, and with other people if it is tiring to discuss the sames issues over and over again with him. I just want you to know there is nothing wrong with feeling bad. What he did wasn´t a "slip". He messed up pretty bad, as you have said yourself, and it takes time and a lot of effort to let go. You might never forgive him fully, but the first steps are letting go off the anger and resentment first, and recognising that you are both making an effort. Try to remember all the good things in him. Focus on what you guys are doing to make your relationship better and look forward not back. Now, try to remember all the good things in you. Rekindly your relationship with yourself. Find things in life you enjoy doing together and things you enjoy doing on your own. Find peace within you first and look after yourself. Best of luck.

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Round of applause to you, Crystal RXS, that was excellent! Hope you're going to stick around for a good while? :-) LG, with that the case, what is it you now say you want to ask me? Fire away. (And Scopes - you now have the (hur-hur) scope for properly pitching in).

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Haha I liked the Scope pun there Soulmate. I guess I want to know how to move on. Stop imagining the awful trip from start to finish. Stop picturing them at it. I know when you read about him you may think he is a bad man and I should bin him off. But he really isn't a bad person at all. When I say he was promiscuous it was when he was single. He drank alot and had alot of casual sex. His ex wife had an affair and it messed him up. He sought comfort and made himself feel better doing those things. He and I have different views on sex I suppose as I have only slept with men I am in a relationship with. At counseling he speaks about being really anxious about the trip weeks before he even left. He has never been overseas before and is from a small country town. Not making excuses at all. Just giving you the background. Being in emergency services along with the affair his ex wife had really got the drinking to take hold. With our relationship he finally felt loved and loved me properly. His wife was one of the women that cheated on him several girl friends prior to that also cheated on him. He has alot of self hatred for what he's done and I know the remorse is 100% genuine and he would never do anything like it again. He also speaks about how this event has opened his eyes to himself and his drinking. The drinking has disappeared since he got back. I think the drinking alone may have ended us in the long run if I'm honest. Maybe what he did was the wake up call he needed to make the change. So... how do I move on? It's been two months and I'm still really struggling with trying to forget and let it go.

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Hah.... i finally found you. Well this is somewhat similar to my situation. The husband with a drinking problem, having an affair with a client without the wife knowing about it. The drinking problem became worse and reached a peak. The wife finally kicked him out and they separated. There's more to this story but your situation is different. Time does heal if you're willing to forgive. I know this is difficult, and as I mentioned in the last thread everything has to be out in the open now. Everything must be transparent no hidden secrets. That of course is if he's willing to do this.

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There's more to be said here,but at least he's come to grips with what he's done. Most men would keep this a secret with no regret. LG you can move on, more talking, communicating with others about this helps a lot. Talking with him about this also helps. Communication is the key to a good marriage.

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I'll be back...

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That's just it. He has always been completely transparent and still is. He's had no communication with her again nor wants to. He's told me everything he can about what happened. Alot he can't remember about the actual deed as he was written off drunk. I've talked to her and her husband husband and both stories align so he isn't lying. Unfortunately she isn't being honest with her husband . She admitted to me she came on strong both times and didn't give my fiance much room to refuse. The second time she actually set out to do it and told him we might as well we've already f*$ked up...but won't admit it to her husband to try and save her marriage. That's not my business but I did encourage her to tell him the truth. She told me the truth as she felt she owes me that much. She came on strong knowing he had a fiance and new baby and felt bad. How do I move on and forgive though? It's so damn hard. Even though I know he's sorry and lost without me. Alot easier said than done...

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Oh this won't be easy,however talking helps. It'll take time, and as time rolls on more will be said. I know there's an emptiness inside that yearns to understand why. As mentioned at that last thread,drinking is almost always the culprit. Building trust again is what will make you both feel better,and help you move on.

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More to be said here.

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LG, There are certain detailed aspects of this whole story that don't quite add up to me or have significant holes in them (and same for Scopes by the sound of it). Not that they alter the bigger picture of his having [1] faced the music and confessed, [2] his dutifully going off to counselling and [3] beating himself up in front of you, as all part and parcel of his showing genuine remorse. But I think you're going to find extra pieces of data and 'whole light changes' cropping up from time to time, whether they be confessional and own volition (helped by his counselling) or your own mind going, 'Haaang on a cotton pickin' minute - if supposedly this was the case then how come you did/didn't [etcetera]?!'. But your question to me is, how do you get past this, let's face it, giant blot on your landscape in order to continue overall happily in this relationship once its set more straight again? Picture this crime as a tracing-paper sheet featuring a huge ink blot, placed in your mental-emotional in-tray. Picture your husband reassuring and impressing you (even including, by his being his more normal self) as to his deeper-down still-good intentions as a fresh sheet getting plonked on top but underneath which the ugly ink blot is still visible. How many sheets of data over what period of time is it going to take until you can no longer even detect the blotted one? How many if the sheets are thicker than average or even Bond quality (that's Basildon, not James ;-))? You'll probably get a variety and probably experience some getting taken off again (or you throwing them out in disgust) from time to time - fights, etc. - or new ones with smaller blots going onto that pile which just remind you all over again that further down still lays that original blotted sheet. Now see the bonding path as a two-legged-race. Up the track is bonding, walking in reverse grieving. It takes 2-5 to grieve (detach) ergo takes 2-5 to bond (attach/re-attach). In other words - I'm sorry to say - there *isn't* any quick fix. You're in this for the fairly long haul. And 'memories fade but the scars still linger'. But then, if it's not "this" then it's "that" in this life of knocks and scrapes. So this is about learning to live with this weight around your ankle until you have no reason to bring it again to mind and can most of the time, not forget, but FAIL TO RECALL it's there (with the exception of triggers). However, regarding the here and now, if your life is busy then your conscious mind can concentrate on all the daily distractions, leaving your 'back-room gals' to do it for you (or certainly the lion's share). Better if they do, in fact. Contrary to arrogant myth, our conscious selves are *not* the boss and expert of us and tend only to interfere with the smooth-running of that sifting, reading, understanding, duplicating and filing away process, anyway. You'll undoubtedly, at certain points in your sleep cycle, get to witness snippets or whole reels of this back-room campaign going on - in the form of audio-visual (dreams), be they fairly coherent and rational, a mish-mash of symbolism that has to be analysed, or things your conscious mind would rather censor from itself per se or for the time being (by turning the dream bad thus forcing you to wake). The more sleep and dreaming you can get (sober) (you need to see 'the film';), the better. Not easy with a new baby so - nap whenever baby naps if she's currently a poor sleeper. You might not remember 'the film', though, once you wake. But it'll come knocking in those 'Wait a minute!' or 'Oh - phew!' moments. ************ Now to him: It's not the crime, it's the time. He's in prison, serving his sentence. Let's see how accepting of his sentence and rock-breaking workload he is. But try to keep things balanced, rather than keep mentioning it day-in-day-out (although you will for a while, obviously). Remember, he has to get exercise and fresh air in the recreational yard and fun and respite in the telly and games room, etc. You are, after all, the prison warden (and guard and fellow prisoner). I'm afraid that first and foremost, the power over whether you can forgive and 'forget' lays in his hands, with how you react and respond in yours, which affects his next set of actions as dictate your next set of responses...in a box in a box in a box. Two to five years, sometimes quicker (like, a year), depending on the individuals concerned. ************ Maybe this whole thing was a bid to wrest back a bit more of your attention from the new baby, combined with his finally forcing himself to hit bottom (by jumping) in order to make his climb back up, this time with help, easier because he was nearer to the bottom than the top so it made sense? But it does sound very much like he used this woman as a tool. That they used each other as such, actually. If that's any consolation? Which is why I think only on the ONE hand is he remorseful but on the other secretly relieved. ************ Does any of this help?

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Wow. Thanks Scopes and SM. You've given alot of time to my problem and I appreciate it. Holes in the story maybe my fault as I didn't want the thread to be a million miles long. Lol One thing I know about my man is he has told me everything he can remember. Bad interation only happened while written off drunk. They actually had a sober conversation about what happened as they were both upset about it all on the second to last night in a room alone together and absolutely nothing happened. She said the same to me. So it wasn't an attraction on either side. Or a passionate encounter. You're completely right when you say they used each other as a tool. This is his rock bottom. You're right about that too. He said those exact words. If there's anything you guys need me to fill in. Questions etc please ask away. It wasn't to regain attention from me regarding the baby. We were best friends and had an amazing relationship. He says it was the worst mistake of his life due to anxiety about being overseas alone knowing no one.. alcoholism etc. It just hurts everyday. Understanding why helps. He is taking his jail sentence as he knows he deserves it. I try not to bring it up everyday. We do have moments of being close again. And he cries when we do. I know he is sorry. So sorry. And disgusted with himself. And loves me and our family. And I also have confidence he would never do anything like it again. I just want the thoughts to go away. LG.

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Wow!SOULMATE applause to you,excellent response as usual. Trying to think of what to say here hmmm... I'll be back

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It was a great reply. And so was yours Scopes.

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If I were your fiance i wouldn't think of it as a jail sentence. I'd think of it as a full on commitment to love you and my new born child.

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He doesn't Scopes. At all. I was using Soulmates wording .

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("Iy'll be baaaahck". Arnie, you have plenty to contribute so I hope you do.) LG, (No it wasn't, it was sh*t.) No. Holes in the main elements, the big stuff. If you want my honest opinion (now that I have a window), I don't think your husband did cheat on you and I didn't feel at all right as I wrote the above advice, hence why it was, for me, uncharacteristically kept to the general and hence I, at the time without thinking, included 'Oh, phew!' when talking about analysis results coming knocking. He's a carer/rescuer and ultra-sensitive type, in the biz of *fixing* wounds, not creating them. NO WAY would such a type do unto others what has so traumatisingly painfully been done to them again and again, nuh-uh-UH! But they can certainly *say* they have. They know it gets the attention, and big-time, you see....cos it worked like that on them, they remember (all too well in Nth detail). And - his job: they and their colleagues are TIGHT... like an army squadron. Even if they're not even of the same squadron. They'd do anything for one another. AND FOR VICTIMS. Including LIE FOR THE POWER OF GOOD. Even pretend to be marrieds (unless you've met the couple concerned or, even if they are married, could swear on your bub's life that the two of them wouldn't go to those conspiratorial lengths to help out (without malice) their already much-abused bud?). Maybe he only *says* he had a promiscuous past? After all, if you come to a relationship a known victim, as with some people *could* paint you as a sucker and single you out for yet MORE victimising, how could you 'redeem' yourself as a safety precaution and so as to look less of a ...well... unimpressive, unsexy WIMP? So all that posturing he did to you at the start was another thing that started my nose twitching. With men, end justifies means. With men, huge gambles are worth taking, particularly if you're convinced you've little left to lose anyway. Particularly if you've got an excuse that would appeal and feel understandable/appreciable thus forgiveable to a certain other type. The stakes aren't as high as would seem if the dice is loaded. "Not now, Bernard...Baby's crying. Not now, Bernard...Baby's hungry. Not now, Bernard...I'm too knackered." This also fortified my suspicion: Big baby crying too. When you showed him what had obviously become uncharacteristic affection. I didn't get (male) remorse, I got ABJECT RELIEF AND SHAME (of the feeling really stupid variety)! Seen it too many times. I myself have also been told too many times that a lover's cheated on me when he hasn't done anything remotely of the sort, because (me being nosy and taking zero as gospel) it was fairly quickly proven to have at the time been not whatsoever logistically possible... either said to get my greater attention or my attention back or for unfair leverage attempt - whatever. When you've seen it in detail so many times first-hand, and second (and third), you become extra sensitive to all the subtle, characteristic little clues and giveaways. What cost to him? Being seen from now on as having a dangerous bad boy streak for the sake of keeping his rock and 'regenerating' her prior attention levels. Oh, boo-hoo. That's what I meant when I said part of him were relieved. The remorse element, I think, is over what struck him when you demonstrated you still loved him via your affectionate gesture, regarding having used the dirty tactic (even roping colleagues into aiding and abetting) for seeing how much you still loved him or whether you truly had gone off him or were beginning to. He's a multiply near-fatally-wounded soldier, I know how those types operate. Including lacking manual finesse thus going unnecessarily, clumsily OTT (think eye or vein surgeon with the shakes). Amongst other unrealistic picture pixels/groups- and chains-of that I noticed, there's *this* biggie: YOU try (were you a keeper of the sacred dangly) to get it up and keep it up with pre-guilt and remorse then same after-the-fact come Round 2, PLUS when paralytic on top, PLUS when knackered on top due to prior guilt-ridden, sleepless nights (preceded, presumably, by broken sleep due to the culture shock and sleep patterns of the bubbie). Oh, and let's add, feeling unloved and highly vulnerable, to the battery pack of that there emotional-barometer, shall we? Yuh, right! What's left out of that completely unconducive-to-sex list? Hot candle-wax having been poured onto his phee-phoo just for good measure? SAYING you've cheated (because unlikeliness of seeing yourself booted-out by someone in her predicament is something you CAN bank on more than not) is the next best thing if you need something that weighty to regain someone's attention AND NEVER LOSE IT AGAIN. A shitty thing to do? Yes. A flattering thing? Absolutely, you over-gorgeous thing, you! Desperate is as desperate does because it desperately has to be done / means justify the end / long-term benefit trumps short-term pain. "Do you still love me enough to get upset to a high enough degree when I doooooo...THIS? What aboooooout...THIS! *OR THIS!!!!!*". All men are far more manipulative - or button-pushing, whatever you want to call it - than women. Women are allowed to cry and rant (or both), basically show their feelings, thoughts, fears, openly. Darn well *expected* to! Think about if you couldn't. Think about if you couldn't show your (yawn) "wimpish" side by asking, 'Mew....Doo you still love meeee because lately I've been feeling like you dooon't any mooore, mew', because you've your whole life had that aptitude well and truly from all quarters of society kicked and threatened, Pavlovian-style, out of you. Far easier, more instantaneous AND (ref having been primed for paranoia and over-defensiveness) inarguable, reading-wise, to just (over-)dip a litmus or (over-)push a giant button and wait for the peep/squeal/scream with your sound level meter at the ready. "LOOK-AT-MEEE, LOOK-AT-MEEE, NOT JUST BABY - MEEE!". He's been cheated on multiply. ***Suddenly GONE OFF OF multiply.*** He's no doubt still in (accumulative, hard to shift) DefCon. (That counsellor's certainly going to earn his/her fee!) With all that emotional confusion in their jello, they're a bit ...um...THICK (as in clouded). And deaf. They need BIG SHOUTY HEARTS & FLOWERS AND REASSURANCES WRITTEN 10FT TALL ON THE WALL AND THEIR FACE SHOVED INTO IT...REPEATEDLY... or they too easily end up going (just a quick hop 'n skip from DefCon3) into a blind panic that you don't love them any more, you've gone off them, someone else must have caught your attention, you only wanted them to gain a baby.... "Buttons, buttons, gimmie those buttons, release missiles!". Put more simply, he's still suffering from PTSD. Even Mr S (cheated on by ex-wife) has tried this kind of thing. Back when we were long-distance and he felt my attention thus interest seemingly waning (I was just bloody busy ffs) or just unequal to his own but felt powerless to do anything about it from there, he'd, for example, text to say, 'Sorry bebe, can't phone tonight after all - having supper at my parents', when that had never stopped him before. Or ' - going to cinema tonight with a friend'. With a FRIEND. Ermahgeeerd, he must be cheating!, I was supposed to think...and start looking-at-him, looking-at-him-and-only-him. (Not biting, I'd text back, 'Okie-dokes. Tell Sebastian I said Hi'.) I could be wrong. But - you now review everything you've been told (only TOLD, note!) under that light and see if any previously 'homeless' data pieces all suddenly find an abode wherein they suddenly make total sense. It could be a case of, right forest, wrong tree. But I've never yet been wrong about the forest itself....about something being 'off'. And normally, I'm the one sat here trying to convince someone that there *has* been cheating. So the fact that this time my mind's refusing to accept there has, says something. Over to you. What's your reaction on reading this? And also - what sex is your baby? (PS: Don't you say a word about this to hubby yet, okay?)

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Lol. I know he had a promiscuous past. I knew him back then as a friend. And avoided him as he was sleazy. We built a friendship first and it went from there over time. I know for sure he cheated. He would never lie about something like that and hurt me this way just to get attention. They aren't colleagues that have any interaction at all. The branches are in different parts of the country. And remember I spoke to get husband. He was devastated. I demanded an apology from her and that's how we got to talking. So there isn't a thick as theives type thing going on. They had no idea who each other were before the trip. None of them did. There was about ten of them. Your first reply was alotmore accurate.

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Ahhhh......i see now,I know you mentioned that he had a promiscuous history LG. This is tiny bit complicated with the woman whom your husband cheated with. The fact that she also has a family,with three kids. I say husband but really for now he is your fiance right? Did this woman give him her number? Not trying to be nosey here just curious..

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Don't worry Soulmate I'm thinking......I'm thinking

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No neither of them swapped numbers. I first got a whiff of something when I noticed he was friend with everyone on the trip but her on Facebook. That's in hindsight of course. At the time I said 'why aren't you friends with her? Is it because she's fat and ugly? And I laughed. Oh what he must of had going through his head... Lol He took two days to wrk up the courage to tell me. So I seen that picture before I knew. They were both tagged by someone else on the trip. No there has been no contact at all. He blocked her on Facebook. But I think she is horrified at her actions too. I know she loves her husband and was probably out of her depth too. Used each other like SM said. The husband had my fiancee number and I doubt he would let her have it. We've blocked his number now as there's no need for further contact with him either. I know my man is being an open book about it all. The husband sent him some nasty texts while we were living apart and when he came to visit out daughter he told me and showed me then as I said I want to know I'd any contact. He could of deleted them and I wouldn't have known any better. I just need help on how to move forward... if I can.

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We're here for ya..... and as always....... I'll be back..

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Well, I don't know, then. And obviously I don't wish to confuse you when you'd rather attempt to file it all away. But *something* (or thingZ) isn't sitting right. Maybe I'll spot whatever it if you and Scopes continue talking it all through? It could be that my sense is correct but I don't yet have the data with which to articulate it and back it up. For now, though - what about the many non-conducive elements I listed? (I won't say we can add 'fat 'n ugly' automatically to that list because, as the non-tactful saying goes, You don't look at the mantlepiece when you're poking the fire. Although, saying that, some men *do* care about the mantlepiece and aren't prey to the 'beer-goggles' effect.) But what ABOUT paralytic, knackered, guilt-ridden - I note you didn't comment over that part? Can anyone really argue with how it would all spell Cold Shower? Re the posturing: the fact of it having been used as a pre-defence measure was more my point. It always smacks of, Don't you ever mistreat or cheat on me because I'm really well placed to do it to you AND BETTER, combined with, I've always been in very high demand so if you ever don't want me, I could replace you in record time..... sort-of putting you slightly on the back foot. The fact you already KNEW he were a complete sl*t just lends greater weight to the suspicion of it having been a posturing exercise because, otherwise - why the need to remind you of something you were already perfectly aware of; what would be the point?

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More than that I couldn't do better Soulmate. I read a post where someone said, just because you're married to me doesn't mean you own me. Huh? You know what I'm going to say... it's all about values and morals

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LG I'm guessing you and your fiance are living together,and are no longer having contact with this other woman and her husband currently. You're not on trial here,once again just curious.

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("I read a post where someone said, just because you're married to me doesn't mean you own me. Huh?" (Y) 'Huh?', indeed! They say that merely because it suits them to, and in the process ignore this testimony to how society since humanity began have always felt on the matter: "To have and to hold, from this day forward...". I mean, they didn't get the wording out of a flippin' Christmas cracker. You don't own them automatically, no. You EARN ownership of them, donated by them. You prove yourself a decent person in their books until such time as they confidence about GIVING themselves to you, increasingly over time as you go ON earning them. And vice-versa, obviously. Isn't *everything* about values and morals. And isn't living life with a constantly clean conscience or near-as-damnit a wonderful, wonderful thing!)

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Yes Soulmate exactly where I was going with this. No word from LG,wonder if she's not responding anymore.

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I hope this damn well sends! I've tried to reply every time you guys post but it hasn't worked!

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I've known for seven weeks now. He moved out to a family members for three weeks while I processed it. He is back home now. But taking it slow. E.g. no sex. I'm not ready. He didn't do this to put me in my place . If he did he definitely wouldn't be reacting the way he is. Givng up drinking is a huge thing for him. If you don't hear from me it's because sometimes it doesn't save my posts. Very weird.

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Ooooooops... sorry I wasn't trying to pressure you LG. Well hopefully he stays focused on this situation and stays on the straight and narrow. About the sex thing, that's gonna take some time. Some women would insist on the husband getting a STD test. I don't know if that would be necessary in this case.

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Yep both times not planned and no thinking on either side so no protection. Has been tested. All clear. No pregnancy either. (Thank God ) . That part grossed me out alot. But I guess of protection was used it means forethought and planning was involved so... yeah. I actually put all that in one of my posts that didn't work. I've realised I need to click on the email alert I receive. If i come in through the page it doesn't work. He couldn't probably do more to make up for it to be honest. If he could go back in time and change it all he would. We had to do a trust / forgiveness exercise thru the counsellor and you had to write out 70 times a day for 7 days what you regret about it all. I sneaked a copy of his and it was heartbreaking stuff. I am selfish. I wish I never won the trip. How could I do this to the love of my life. I had no attraction . Why did I do it? Suicide is not an option. My fiance is everything I've ever wanted. Why did I ruin everything? I hate myself. I will have this over my head for the rest of my life. I struggle to look at myself in the mirror. She was gross. I let my family name down. I hope my love will forgive me. I've hurt the only woman I have ever loved. I was out of my depth. I am an alcoholic. I need help. If i lose my family I won't know what I'll do. I'm lost with our my love. I hurt the love of my life and that hurts me so bad. I feel sick every time I think of the trip or her. I will never do this again as long as i live. No he didn't know I was going to read this. I asked the counsellor if I could keep them as it will help with my recovery. He reluctantly agreed. There are way more. But I thought I would give you an insight into his head. Yes. I am in pain. Yes he wronged me. But imagine feeling all this pain... AND THE GUILT . Regret.. all that soul destroying stuff. I couldn't imagine how awful it would feel. I know we shouldn't feel pity for cheaters. And I don't. But I can understand. That is the road to recovery and forgiveness so I'm told.. LG

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Tiny bit like a 12 step program if you know what that is. Luckily this is all anonymous and no one knows who anyone is. Hopefully this is a step in the right direction

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Excellent new data! (Who knew it would arrive so soon!) And - "I asked the counsellor if I could keep them as it will help with my recovery. He reluctantly agreed." - great counsellor! No Jobsworth or amateur too scared to bend the rules a little where imperative and for the power of good. Don't react until you get to the end, LG - bear with... (and give it time to sink in): Yes, it *was technically* an "affair/two-night-stand" [or two halves?...couldn't get it up or up properly the first or both times?] to create leverage for gaining control. But not in the usual way or for the usual reasons (thank god). Reading his, yes, incredibly sincere list and taking into account all that you yourself say, LG, it looks very much to me, in actual fact, like he did it to put *himself* in his place and gain better control (and attentiveness) of *himself*, not you. But it did have to involve a *bit* of "look-at-mee, look-at-meee", simply for how you'd have to be a vital player in the whole thing. I'll explain: I think subconsciously he on-the-spot embraced a glaring opportunity to bring about a huge catalyst (his inner animal was obviously appalled with his having started to become dependent on drink, risking becoming one of the, frankly *very* unattractive, nay *repulsive* drunks that he and his colleagues have to these days constantly witness and deal with)...trying to literally force himself into a corner wherein he'd have no choice *but* to once-and-for-all give up the heavy drinking or else [wait for it] highly likely end up losing his marriage and new family. IOW, with the AID of alcohol (to give him the dutch courage to dare to go through with it once the moment was finally staring him in the face), he went and created his own high stakes: Lose: the unhealthy side of him remains and slowly but surely ruins everything. Win: forced with your willing help into 'rehab' and getting clean, a la (to himself), "Stop behaving like one of those pathetic saddos you see at work or the 'puppy' [wife and kid/family] gets it! (When your healthier side puts its foot right down and takes over your mind, I call it your inner animal mutineering you (Conscious You). And when Conscious You is out for the count, unable to interfere, such as asleep or drugged (semi-asleep), your inner animal gets to run riot or be the boss/captain over deciding whether Conscious You is allowed or disallowed to commit some act.) But - ah!... How to ensure he can't at any point of the pre-, mid-, after-act become either fond of or downright 'addicted' to his tool and, because of it, get side-tracked from its planned (but highly opportunistic) strategy? Answer: ensure the incident can only be pretty much a one-off (same week and same event can count as same timeframe). And the way to ensure against that is actually quite easy: "She was gross." Ta-daa! I was right after all (- I like being right when it's good news :-)). He did *not* have sex with her. He did *not* cheat with her. Because neither of those things were the point. Not even NEARLY. Yes, he APPEARS to have cheated, because of course he went through the stock-standard motions of it. But in his head (i.e. his inner animal forcibly roping-in his outer human's cooperation and assistance), it was just something that had to be done to achieve its sensible end goal. The fact she was his and, more to the point, your idea of 'gross' carried a side-bonus: you couldn't possibly come away with the wrong impression - of the whole thing having to spell rejection of you, or him thinking you weren't good enough somehow - and out of that, either actually leave him or be non-persuadable towards forgiving him within a safely realistic timeframe (for bubbie's sake?). He could, of course, have opted to do a parachute jump instead, if he'd wanted to give himself that huge wake-up slap and kick. But a quick, pragmatism-based sh*g (where you don't even look them in the face) is far simpler for how it doesn't cost time or money or risk actual death/serious injury, does it (that would defeat the object and just create a *new* 'limp';). Anyway, it was obviously a snap-decision, made on that plane while she was there, throwing herself at him and making him look down on her and feel a bit repulsed (same as his 'customers';). Perfect candidate for the job - LET'S DO IT! And it worked, didn't it. He got to throw hot coffee in his own face and at the same time get you safely on-board with taking the next step of ensuring his drinking would get winkled out of him via professional intervention. Yet psychological-medical and *private*, not physical-medical as in rehab centre (or further down the line - hospital A&E) as might mark him out as being no better than the kind of self-helpless and non-self-help-ABLE hoi-polloi he routinely has to deal with). I was out of my depth. [I did not know what "I" was doing, did not have full enough control - my inner self did] I am an alcoholic. [and] I need help [can't do it on my own]. If i lose my family I won't know what I'll do. [there's a perfect incentive if ever there was one!] I'm lost with our my love. [and another/ditto!] (Results justifies method with men, see.) Voila. It all fits...click-click, clickety-click. Definitely right forest and only wrong tree. It was a 'pre-bring my own issues to an urgent head' exercise.

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Clickety click click CLICK. Soulmate. Just bravo my friend. That all clicked totally and makes so much SENSE. It made so much SENSE.. I read it to him . He has something he would like to say to you. (And Scopes) First of all thank you both for helping my love through this . I feel sick every time I think about it. And the worst pain when I see her in pain. I will never do this again. I'm not a bad person. I just did a bad thing and have I learned a lesson! About myself mostly. You were bang on.. neither time was a face to face encounter. And I don't remember much about it other than that. Just random snippets. My drinking was out of control. But I thought prior to my trip the it wasn't. I even had to take a pill every day for my reflux so I could drink... but not even my health and well being could get through to me. Hurting the love of my life in this disgusting way certainly did. Again. Thank you. And I'm sorry. Me again! I finally can see some light at the end of this tunnel thanks to you both. It still hurts and I'm taking it day by day. But it doesn't consume me like it did before. Thank you SM & SCOPES. You've helped a new mum find some happiness again X

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Glad to help, that's why we're here! :-) Quick change of subject to your husband because a couple of things he said alarmed me: If you were having to take acid reflux tablets on a daily basis(!!!) then - WARNING - you could well have damaged the cells of your oesophagus (aka gullet or foodpipe) or its lower sphincter already, from all the acid regularly hitting it. It's an *HIGHLY* delicate organ, far more than people realise or would ever imagine, meaning, if you inadvertently or unwittingly wreak any more sustained damage onto it you'll be at risk of developing oesophageal cancer (hard to treat) or, at the least, impaired swallowing later in life (not fun). So it's very important - repeat, VERY important - that you consider the thing as being in Intensive Care and treat it accordingly - STARTING RIGHT NOW - for a good few months at least so as to give it every chance of making a full recovery and reversing the damage completely. After all, if you can no longer indulge in alcohol then you'll be more reliant on tasty food titbits as a pleasure source: - No hot or cold drinks *whatsoever* for a few months (longer if you can manage it). Cool or exceptionally warm only. Tepid obviously being the ideal. Same with food. - Eat smaller meals more frequently or become an all-day grazer. - Chew your food until it's puree before swallowing, almost to the extent where you literally could fool someone if you put into an empty baby-food jar. - Take spoonfuls of Manuka honey (it has amazing healing properties) and take your time with little spoon licks (like a lollypop) as you watch telly or read the paper. Other natural healing and anti-inflammatory remedies include Aloe Vera, Apple Cider Vinegar, Vitamin B Complex, Cayanne (particularly anti-inflammatory), Baking Soda (half a teaspoon in warm water is excellent, anyway, for indigestion/heartburn and nausea), Hemp Tea, Coconut or Coconut oil... I'd start taking them ALL to speed up the process. - Avoid as much as possible, coffee, citrus, carbonated drinks, chocolate, fried fatty foods, tomato ketchup, onions, garlic and mint (pepper- and spear- both). - Lose weight (although that'll probably happen automatically, anyway, with cutting out the booze). - No chewing gum, biting nails or chewing pen tops. Put the Manuka honey and vinegar at the top of your list. Manuka's lovely in Chamomile tea so you can give yourself a dose right before every lights-out, to leave it lining your gullet all through the night to get on with doing its thing (we grow and repair mostly when asleep). You can also make fudge or toffee with it (meaning, can incorporate the vinegar) or can buy it ready-made (available on the net) if you don't enjoy cooking - absolutely delicious, it is. Plus, it's great for baby (treats colic...same for cooled Chamomile tea + Manuka in her bottle). Also look on on the net for 'tissue salts' in tiny pill form (different types/numbers for myriad conditions, highly effective stuff). Try Dr Reckeweg No. BC25 or New Era No. 10. If despite stopping drinking you still experience reflux or... blood in your vomit or stools (black poo); unexplained tiredness (anaemia); asthmatic-like symptoms or husky/croaky voice or uncharacteristic snoring and sleep apnea, then get to the doctor QUICK to stop the problem in its tracks (easily enough done) because it could be you've developed GERD or Barrett's Oesophagus (go Google), potential precursors of said cancer. A portion of the 'feeling sick' might be connected. Also, get a dental check-up in case the acid's eroded any of your tooth enamel. In fact, I would just visit your GP, regardless, just to be on the safe side. And if I were in your position, I'd be eating baby food and nothing else for 2 weeks straight (again, just to be safest) (psst - it's surprisingly tasty...so I'm told, LOL). ********** "but not even my health and well being could get through to me. Hurting the love of my life in this disgusting way certainly did." Ask the counsellor about why your wife and baby are L'Oreal (worth it - protecting) in your eyes yet not you yourself. Obviously you're a Rescuer type so would more likely look after yourself by taking care of other people, but, even so... Your inner animal clearly disagrees with your opinion for how it basically reared up and 'ultimatum-ed' you (held a gun to your marriage's head), so this lack of self-protectiveness obviously has an experiential cause behind it. And next time you find yourself acting-out in *any* way that isn't healthy for you or to any unusual degree - talk to your wife, that's what she's there for. I know she's having to be especially busy with the baby but I'm sure she'd rather be extra tired for a while than lose you to ill-health or an accident just because you see it that shielding her from any problems is part of manly protectiveness (nope, isn't). Finally, get as involved with your baby as much as possible in terms of chatting, touching and interacting - to fill the booze gap. Treat it like a project (salvation through your kids, they call it...because its true). I know men don't find them all that fascinating when they're that young because they don't seem to 'do' much, but - if you deliberately pay closer attention you'll find yourself surprised on that score. E.g. they'll mimic your facial expressions. I thoroughly recommend a book called Babytalk (30 mins per day). I used it with my son and - KID YOU NOT/HAD A WITNESS - he spoke his first word at age 6 months (said Num-Nums which was my word for his bottles of milk but obviously his way of telling me to hurry the eff up, LOL). Then he went quiet again (obviously concentrating on other things, like his mobility) before starting up again at 9 months ...since when he hasn't shut up once, LOL. (Bit like me. ;-)) Best of luck to the pair of you, and feel free to keep chatting or pick up this thread at any point if you have an 'off' day or little lapse. :-)

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Well Soulmate looks like you put it in a nut shell. Couldn't have done a better job myself. Same goes for me as well,I'll be checking this thread too. Got nothing better to do on a 110 degree day. Miserable, miserable place!

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Since when was 110 degrees miserable? Que?

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110 degrees sounds balmy! He has lost alot of weight from not drinking alone. And has cut back on coke and drinks like that. Drinks ribena now. Lol It was (and sometimes is) still painful. But something this awful had to happen to get through. Counselling is definitely helping with his mindset. Taking it day by day.

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It's one thing to live in 110 degrees. It's another to work in it. LG I'm an ice tea drinker myself, haven't touched a soda in years. It'll take a long time to get this out of his mind. I had an experience over 5 months ago,and I still won't let it go. Counseling is his best bet,at least he has you and you to get through this rough patch.

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It's one thing to live in 110 degrees. It's another to work in it. LG I'm an ice tea drinker myself, haven't touched a soda in years. It'll take a long time to get this out of his mind. I had an experience over 5 months ago,and I still won't let it go. Counseling is his best bet,at least he has you and the counselor to get through this rough patch. This is a correction

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Ribena's okay, but ideally that (and chewing-gum) should be indulged in only AFTER a meal (and ps - saliva, being alkaline, helps the oesophagus a lot). Tell him to cut OUT the coke, not down. Just for 1-2 months to be safe, as I say. Also forgot to mention, no meals inside or 3-4 hours before bedtime because, obviously, lying down removes gravity as keeps the stomach acid from constantly washing against it. Oh, and sleep on your left side (right side encourages acid reflux). "Counselling is definitely helping with his mindset." I should hope so too or you'd want yer money back! ;-) Have you and he any immediate plans to look forward to, like, this year's Summer holiday? (Scopes: 110. I'd give you a couple of bars of Swan Lake only me violin's seized up from all the cold and rain! ;-p) (This is a p*ss-take.)

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Thank you Soulmate....... BTW it's supposed to get up to 119 by this Sunday(record heat). You're right getting out and doing things together is a splendid idea.

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Morning! Yes we have talked about going away together for a weekend. Reconnect and make some happy memories. Luckily our girl is such a good baby so no added stress there.

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You need to come out here to Phoenix Arizona. BA nonstop from London Heathrow c'mon!

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Lol.... Scopes... I'm in Australia my friend

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Ahhhh great well maybe when I retire... for some reason I thought you were in the UK

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I plead ignorance after reading your profile. Anyway,there's lots to do there in new Zealand.

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Lol I told you guys the truth on this thread. When I made the profile I put NZ as I was scared of being discovered. Would hate for any of our family. . Friends.. workmates ... to work it out. But feel more confident now that is impossible. Infidelity is so common! My story isn't special . Although it felt like it was at the time I signed up. Lol Would love to go to USA. Canada too. And Scotland and Ireland. Long way off with a new bubba. But definitely long term goal.

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Yes unfortunately infidelity is quite common thanks to all of this Awsome technology. I think everything's going to be alright now. I know you both want to give your daughter a good upbringing. Hopefully morals and values will different when she gets older. And I mean that in a good way.

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In the meantime I fear for my airconditioner.

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Well Soulmate haven't heard from you. I'm guessing you're done here. Let me know if you've jumped over to another thread.

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Morning Scopes. Can you tell me what happened to you a few months back? I can't find your thread. Struggling a bit at the moment. It's like there's three of me. One that believes he was anxious and had the drinking problem etc and made a huge mistake. One that thinks he wanted to do it and got drunk so it could happen. Not to confront the drinking, but just to have a good time and cheat. And one that just doesn't know what to think. I think too much. I just want to be happy for real again. Will it ever happen?

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No, I'm still around, I just don't always have the time to post, that's all. I have a beat to patrol, plus this isn't my day job. Not a New Zealander?..........Dem! Whin Ah clicked onn the profarl Ah thort Ah mart git too take the piss aat uv the "Inn Zid" accint. Not quaaaat sah conf-ear-dent abaaaat me Ohzzie acc'nt, Ahr masst sigh. Nivah maarnd... Ahr'll avver tinnie uv Forr Rex instead, darl. (Marks out of 10, please, thank-you. And should you wish to get revenge, know that I am verreh, verreh poesh, air years, what, LOVERLEH dahrling, one lump orr twooo?) ******** Onto more serious biz... 1. Guns kill. 2. Modern technology causes infidelity. 3. "I didn't mean it". 1. Guns do not kill. They're inanimate objects devoid of intelligence, autonomy or own initiative. Guns can be used to kill, protect, threaten, bash someone in the face with, save lives, save nations, hunt for meat.... *People* kill. *Some* people kill. Some people don't nor ever would. Don't blame mere tools when the real problem lies solely and exclusively with the aim and intention of the user. 2. Ditto. 3. Then who did - Father Christmas? Always deal with root causes or you'll be there all day, tantamountedly sweeping a path of snow long before it's even ceased snowing. Here endeth the sermon for today ("Ahh-ahhh-aaahhhh...";). GL, psychologically-speaking, there *are* three of you. Possibly more, for all we 'internal universe explorers' know. Conscious you is but the spokeswoman and commentator. Like all humans are taught to, growing up, you try to suppress as much as possible (too much, usually) your inner naked ape (and even more ancient inner lizard-thingumybob) rather than recognise that *some* of the ape's ways should be retained for their usefulness and, by the same token, some of the, nowadays over-cossetted human's ways don't gel with cold, harsh reality. Your inner ape has its own feelings and ideas about what's happened. And those may not accord with what your outer human thinks and wants. That's every human's goal via this journey called Life - to learn how to reconcile ones often conflicting, often combatant sides...get them all working as a TEAM (hence the saying, rounded human). That's *how* a human can "have a relationship with his or her self" - think about it: how else could it unless there were more than one being lumped in there? Wouldn't be possible, would it. A lone entity can't have a relationship, it takes two (at least). HENCE, "I didn't mean it [my inner naked ape did...and I disagree]"...or if you've puked on someone's shoes, "I didn't mean to [my inner lizard thingy did for health and self-preservation reasons]". "but just to have a good time and cheat." [smirk] Yeah, that's what I'd do if I wanted to make the most of a once-in-a-lifetime cheating event: pick the - in my opinion - grossest individual I could find. Wouldn't you? LOL Yes, of course you'll recover. It wasn't a normal two-night-stand, anyway. It was a tool in another agenda entirely. Truth is, his inner animal obviously cottoned-on that he wasn't involving you when he should so went and *forced* him to have to involve you (and masculine pride and wanting you always to be impressed by him be damned)...berbom. That helps. But the simple fact is, dealing with this sort of thing as calls you to question yourself and everything you thought you knew is a mental workload - your case, a project. You've got stuff on your plate already. You'd rather not. Or you'd rather it took only days or weeks at the most. Who wouldn't? But, Patience, glasshopper- sorry, broken glasshopper... Remember your labour and what popped out at the end of all that strife and pain? Did you exclaim, 'THAT wasn't worth it?! Shove her back up again and gimmie a refund!'? Didn't, did you. There you go. This is like a psychological pregnancy/gestation leading to a psychological birth FOLLOWED BY GROWTH AND BETTERMENT. Same for hubbie. Let's hope you're expecting twins. ;-) The scan does appear to verify this, though, I do see identical-ness, so... Could be a lot WORSE, you see? :-) [Orson Welles voiceover] Eart worz thah bearst orv tames...airnd thah wurst orv tames... Hair riz thah full vershon: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way – in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only." (Ey thenk hyo. And before you ask - no, neither tiddly nor gone bonkers(er), this is just me in a very good mood. :-)) What your mind is up to is this: If he did it for *selfish* reasons, and if you pursued that line of enquiry and came up trumps, then you could STOP this horrid ride (know 100% where you stood) and not have to endure it for as long or at all. Humans hate not knowing where they stand, especially for such protracted periods, SO MUCH that, in the moment, they think they'd prefer to 'cut off their arms' as a trade-off. That's all. Impatience plus sense of intellectual powerlessness and loss of prior direction. The quicker you allow yourself to accept that, train-wise, you've been shunted from Track X to Track Y and are going where you're going, the sooner you can sit down, sit still and make yourself comfortable. In the meantime, however, I don't mind blowing your fears out of the water as per the above 'good time and cheat' hypothesis of yours.

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Bravo Soulmate! Once again excellent words of wisdom! LG I never did start a thread for fear that a certain someone might see it. The title would've been "never have a relationship with a friend's ex-wife " and it really wasn't a relationship. I was merely a crutch for her,a long distance relationship via phone and text. Really the go between guy for her and her ex.

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I should hope so too, the amount of shite I've been through in me life, but - thank-you very much, kind Sir. :-) Methinks it would have been your title that could have exposed you, more than the content (*if* it could, I mean). Can't say I understood that brief synopsis too well, really, apart from the LDR bit. (LG, sorry, should have asked already: do you mind us chatting a wee bit here and there on your thread?)

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Thanks . I know you guys are right. Time heals all sounds doesn't it? I've been through a traumatic childhood and got through the other side of that a successful individual so I can get through this. Now - Scopes. That sounds so awful and confusing for you. Being used is the worst feeling in the world. I would be more than happy for us to discuss this on my thread. No one will see it here. And we've talked about me enough! Lol So go for it.

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Started about 6 years ago when my "then friend" invited me to visit he and his wife. He had a serious drinking problem. He met a woman/client during my visit and started hitting on her. He told me this when came back from his service call(computer networking). Their secret relationship got more involved as time went on. His wife never knew, only myself and his brother did. The situation would get worse each time I'd go back there to visit. When he'd pass out myself and his wife would go out to Starbucks and talk about it. Finally it reached a peak a couple of years ago when his wife gave an ultimatum. Either quit drinking seek help or get out. He demanded that he didn't have a drinking problem. During that time she was texting me almost every day, he was as well. Finally it ended in divorce last year. At which point she was texting me and telling me she loved me, and where was I when she was looking for a husband before she met him Blah blah blah...... The drama continued with his drinking even after the divorce. I was there for him as as much if not more than her. She met a man at her new work place sometime around Christmas last year. I had wondered why there was a lapse in her texting. Then she told about it beginning this year. I'm okay with that, it's the telling me about the hugging. The hand holding, hugging and kissing. Then telling me that she needs sex. There ya have it! There's more but I condensed the story as best I could

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And ya know what? Last year she sent me a Starbucks email gift card. I found it yesterday, I zapped it and it payed for my drinks. So it ain't so bad after all

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If you want to hear more I'm going to have go for the voice to text

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Just bumping you up for tomorrow (very late here).

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She sounds like one very confused woman Scopes. She still doesn't know about him cheating I take it? I think they were competing for your loyalty. She used the romantic card as he couldn't could he? I think she genuinely loved the way you made her feel. Sounds as though you wouldn't take it to the next level though? Very loyal to your friend of that was the case! Anyway once she knew you weren't going to be her rebound lover, she found someone to fill that void (pun intended) . She sounds like a woman that can't function without a man in her life. Even though actually being on her own for awhile sounds like the best thing for her. As for you Scopes. . I would chalk it up to experience. Never get involved with someone carrying alot of baggage. Fresh baggage especially. It hurts I know. But all you did was try to look after everyone. There is someone out there for everyone. Your Miss Right is out there. And I bet she likes Starbucks too.

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Well to kind of fill in the blanks here. She blamed her being sex starved because of her age. Had I known that she wanted it that bad I would've flown back there and served her needs. When she told me back at the beginning of January, she said that she was going reserve a motel. She told me that she and this guy were going to stay there til they got tired of each other. Then said "my name " I need sex! I guess what blows me away is WTF? Why did I need to hear that? I'm not real sharp when it comes to picking up on clues when a woman is wanting to get it on with me. Anyway I finally told her ex a couple of months ago about her and I being in touch. He never knew that she and I had been communicating during their separation and divorce. He's going through a 12 step program and is doing rather well. He even talked about being a sponsor himself. He now reflects back and realizes all the bad things that drove his ex wife to divorce. But I think what I told him sank in and now he won't talk to me anymore. I know how he is, he can be a spiteful person and hold a grudge forever. Oh well, no loss to me. Like I said before, they're up there and I'm down here. They can have their Peyton place. And if he does read this is don't give a damn

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(LG, that's very generous and sweet of you, but don't think you deserve exclusive attention less than any other person on here with an especially complicated, long-haul issue. So don't allow it for that reason alone. If, however, you're happy with it because you think it might help - that's different, that's fine. Safely assuming that reason indeed at least features, I can sanction it as a very rare exception to the rule so, pray continue, both of you, but, Scopes, please bear in mind that anything you disclose and discuss from this point on must be with LG's benefit borne first and foremost in mind at all times in terms of helping her own understanding and emotional states, and not let this slide into becoming more your thread than LG's (easily done). Nothing personal, I just have to check you're aware of this basis or I'm not doing my job properly.)

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LG, I'll say this for you - there's nothing wrong with YOUR insight. And that's saying a lot, considering your predicament and the fact you should and could be as DefCon-ed and clouded as that wife Scopes describes, but aren't, not even remotely. Scopes, I guess your friend felt you should have told him at the time (and felt jealous plus suddenly newly seeing you as a threat, chick-magnet wise). Trouble is, he doesn't have a leg to stand on in that respect because he should have told his wife what *he* was up to at the time. Dual Standards Alert! You've lost nothing except a fair-weathered type of friend as well as learned a valuable lesson, like LG says, about how one basically shouldn't try to get romantically involved with anyone who's (psych version) in hospital with their legs in traction because it'll only end in tears and one feeling very used. No point, therefore, showing your understandable bitterness at him for how he reacted via telling yourself you *would* have 'serviced' her if only you'd known that's what she'd been angling for. You DID know, you DID do the right thing instinctually, and bonking his wife in conceptual hindsight only, can't compensate for the fact your male friend wasn't fit enough at that juncture of his life to be as good a friend as you any more than a good husband. Time to find yourself a friend more of your own calibre. Berbom. Nice guys do *not* finish last in the bandied-about sense of being the loser. He who laughs last laughs longest. Usually forever. Bad boys get USED - for a source of drama and excitement for those too young or immature to know what else to do with a relationship - *while* they're too immature. The minute they mature up and are ready to the real deal for-real, it's, S*d off little prats, I NEED A NICE GUY!

Hurt and confused

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I understand that Soulmate,and really this is as far as it goes. If either one of you want to know more I will tell more. Otherwise I'm pretty much over it. In fact I thought here maybe next month sending this woman a gift card to reciprocate my gratitude. LG wanted me to tell my story so I did, So now you know.

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Yes I asked Scopes to share his story. Helping others will help me. As far as my story is concerned I'm over talking about it too. Lol if I have a speed wobble I'll let you guys know. But I'm happy for anyone to chat away on here. Gives me something to read while bubba is asleep.

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LG as of now I kinda have a girl friend. Here once again a long distance relationship, but she genuinely wants to get together. Don't know how she's going to do it but we'll see.

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(Yes, I know, you two. As I said, I was just adhering to official protocol.) Scopes, you're aware myself and Mr Soulmate were long-distance heavyweights once, I take it? It's not for the feint-hearted, so you can always start up a long or one-off-question thread about that if/when you need to. PS: I wouldn't reciprocate, if I were you, ESPECIALLY as you're now in a relationship (might put the frighteners on new gf if she ever got wind of it or might distract you from the 'job' at hand). Plus I'm assuming the woman sent it as a Sorry, rather than some pathetic excuse to re-spark contact, in which case - you don't need to say Sorry back. That's my strong advice, anyway. LG, what's a speed wobble? Obviously I know what a wobble is, in a relationship context - I started the moniker. But speed wobble?

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During the time that this woman sent the gift card was the period when she was texting and calling everyday. It was back in August last year. I was thinking about the repercussions of doing that too.

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Yeah keep her in the past. She has no place in your future. Even if you didn't have a girlfriend. All that would bring is more hurt and confusion down the track.

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Yeah I guess that's probably the best thing. I don't know how long her relationships going to last. According to her ex who keeps in touch with her mother. He makes her very happy BTW he's about six years younger than her parents hmmmmmmm

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Back to you LG thing's are on the up and up with Bubba I take it.

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Speed wobble is probably the same as wobble. Aussie speak for it I start struggling again.. Lol Hopefully your new lady treats you well Scopes. Bubba is going great guns. ☺ Still taking it day by day and slowly. No rush eh.

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Good glad to hear that things are going great gun's. My gf is in Texas and I'm hear in AZ. She wants to move back here. Geography separates us. It'll be alright.

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Well I see no activity here......are we done then? Do to lack of interest..

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Morning Scopes! Ah well we've exhausted my issue. Lol However yours is still on your mind yes? When are you meeting up with the lady in your life? How much do you know about her? Does she 'measure up'to the last lady you liked or do you still hold a candle for her deep down? Nosey aren't I? Lol

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Well LG I don't want to go into too much detail here. Soulmate will give a moderators reminder. Let's just say when when she does move out here we'll get to know each other a lot better.

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I met her over two years ago. On a on line dating thing zoosk... We actually met for lunch. Then she had to move back to Texas. Then we reconnected on Facebook back in March.

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Well LG as far as measuring up with other one. As I mentioned before I was apprehensive about getting in a full on relationship because of her ex.I dont think we're friends anymore.

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Soulmate if you do come back to this thread by chance let us know where you go

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No, Scopes, if LG categorically *asks* for detailed information on your own situation then that's different and utterly fine. (Now you'll have to think up a different excuse not to go into too much detail, LOL......."curses - foiled!" ;-)) If you want to know where I'm at at any point then just do a search using my alias.

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Thank you Soulmate, I hope I'm able to figure where to or how to do the search. If this is anything like Facebook I'm lost..

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Two faintly Grey sausage shapes right atop the Current Threads list.... left says 'Search threads by keyword'...right of it says 'Search threads by alias'. PS: Nothing like Fakebook (wash thy mouth out!). ;-p

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Well Soulmate I don't really see anything current. Looks like this thread is dead. But I'll keep my eye out.

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How have things been going, LG, in terms of steady progress? Any wee setbacks?

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Well Soulmate I think that's it.

This thread has expired - why not start your own?

B-10