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Parents split up

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My parents split up just over 2 months ago which came as a total shock to me, I didn't see it come at all, as far as I knew they were fine. There were no obvious signs no arguments, no distance or issues that could of put strain on there relationship and they've always supported each other through everything. the night before they broke up they were snuggled on the sofa together watching tv both happy.

I came home from school to find my mum inconsolable saying that my dad had left, she was too upset to say why. I didn't hear from my dad for more then 12 hours ( it's was a very sleepless night) until he called me the next day.

To this day I still don't know why they have broken up and they refuse to speak to each other. i don't if it's because they are trying to protect me and my younger brother and sister or what but I kind of feel I need to know. Not the full details but a reason is be nice!

In the week we stay with my mum in our family home and at the weekends we go to my dads to his rented apartment. Both my parents aren't coping but they still manage to go to work. My mum is tearful all the time I'm really worried about her she hardly eating and doesn't sleep at night. I really worry about her. my dad is just recluse he won't go out at al unless it's to work or food shopping. Neither will help them selves and they don't like my idea of marriage counselling which I think would help and get some normality bk.

My younger brother who's 13 is rebelling, pushing every boundery possible by buncking school, smoking, getting detentions. I really worried he'll end up getting suspended or worse. Thankfully my little sister whos 11 is adapting really well and is taking it all in her stride, as long as she sees both my parents she's ok.

I'm really trying to be patient with them both but my frustration anxiety is getting worse. I was wondering if his was normal? Should I not know why for my own sanity? Or is there anyone here who has separated/divorced parents and like me have no answers? I can't help but feel this will go on forever.

Parents split up

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LILY31 you have the right idea although some might not agree. Marriage counseling can work if both parents are on board.

Parents split up

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Ideally, your folks should have sat you and your siblings down and broke this news to you. Perhaps they would have given the reason, but this is too private and too hurtful right now to discuss.

But know this: while they might not be husband and wife, they will always be your parents.

Encourage them to get some help during this time. Sounds like both of them are miserable.

And tell brother that he needs to be strong during this high stress time. He needs counseling, too. He does not know what to do with his emotions.

Parents split up

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LILY31 kudos to you for being the strong one here. If you need to vent or talk more we'll try to help.

Parents split up

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Your younger brother is taking advantage of the opportunity to no-holds-barred 'make like a teenager/independent' without the usual supervision and constraints *plus* - whilst partying off the tracks - trying to force your parents to have to unite, at least parentally (a start), to 'sort him out' (after all, it's only a matter of time before they get called before the headmaster/mistress, isn't it...AND HE KNOWS THEY'LL KNOW THAT, note), *plus* meantime punish them ("see what happens when you X?"). So clearly you and he are on the same page in the same boat, despite your ideas of going about things differ. I think you need to sit him down and ask him to team up with you towards finding a less messy solution to the fact he and you have been selfishly (- albeit understandably in the short-term-present circumstances) left totally in the highly anxiety-making dark over what happened, how, why, and what's likely to happen from here.

For example, you could both or all three write them a letter which you duplicate and send (post, not hand) to each separately? Alternatively/additionally, do you and he have an aunt and/or uncle or other close relative you could go and see, with a view to their intervening and/or taking up the slack on yours and your parents' behalf? But, no, it won't go on like this forever, that's impossible. And, me, I rather think there's hope to be had in the fact that neither of them will 'plant their flag', so to speak, in front of you kids. Think about it: if the reason behind this blow-up were so serious it had to mean permanent separation into divorce for-sure, I'm betting they would have felt they had no choice but to say so. So clearly not even *they* know what they're doing or where they're headed. See what I'm saying?

By the way - you said they were snuggling happily as they watched TV. Was this routine or had you noticed them getting far closer and more cuddly and kissy lately - even just slightly - than you'd ever before witnessed? Also, did they have you quite young and/or quite soon after marrying?

Parents split up

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Thanks for the replies.

Firstly my brother has always pushed the boundaries right from when he was little dispite the fact my parents always being consistent with discipline, their not lazy parents! He's been to see counsellors before but never really got anywhere or found one he's liked, I personally think he suffers from depression. He's exceptionally bright so he's bored at school, therefore acts out and he knows what he's doing. whether he'll listen to me if I tried to talk to him ...i don't know. I have learnt not to argue with him and just try to be nice and Once in a blue moon, he'll let his barriers down and he'll open up to me.

Both sets of grandparents died a few years ago, my dad is an only child. My parents have friends but not really close family friends. I do have an aunt, my mum sister, who I have thought about contacting, she lives quite far away. my mum has been to stay with her recently to get away, but I have no idea if they have talked about what's going on. My kind of boyfriend/close friend (were not quite official yet) has offered to drive me down to see my aunt, so maybe that is an option but other then a nice day out, I don't think I'll get much information, just a listening ear. Having said that my dad is weird about me going out at the weekends and I feel guilty leaving my brother and sister with him because he doesn't do anything with them, so they constantly bored and will argue.

Snuggling on the sofa was definitely a routine thing, theyve always been quite affectionate with each other. It was on a Friday when they split up, I was at school, but my mum had the day off work and my dad was taking the afternoon off - so I've kind of let my imagination run wild as to what could of happened in those few hours till I returned home from school but I have no other clues.

They got married quite young around 22, but because they both have professional jobs my dads a gp, mum is a teacher they didn't have me till they were both 30. All I keep thinking is it's going to end in divorce and it's crap +0(

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(Sorry for the delay.)

Well, the reason you're thinking that is no doubt due to the fact your mind thinks knowing where you stand (and thereby where you're headed) - even if not the desired outcome - is far preferable to being trapped in Limbo and not knowing a thing. Common stuff.

It doesn't make your fear true, though, and - commensurate with all you say about this coming out of the Blue without *any* pre-indicators whatsoever (which you'd have been bound to have sensed even slightly) - I don't get a feeling that these two people had any insitu or developing marital problem worthy enough of the Big D. So I think it's probably just a fight, *quite possibly* their first ever, really big fight (replete with testing of strength and each other's boundaries via a stand-off), what with the fact they'd have had very frenetic lives with such demanding careers atop of everything else, meaning, quite possibly bypassed that particular element in their bond development process, originally...until now, you three having hit a certain degree of independence.

Re your bro:

Yes, previously brother was a rebel without a cause (bar being in the teen stage, type willful male). This time he feels freer under justification because this time he (as he sees it) *does* have a cause. The 'inch' has therefore become a 'mile' (as per the saying about men - Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile).

I doubt your parents were lazy. You don't have to be lazy to find some teenagers and their constant pushing, testing and general aggro totally exhausting. Just human. Even the BEST parents at some point start tearing their hair out before falling in a defeated heap; it's very hard to be consistent with the upholdance of rules when you have too many other, equally important things in life vying for your attention ("Not now, son, I'm paying the bills!") and there are only so many times a parent can keep repeating his or herself when up against a stubbornly defiant kid with superior amounts of energy and a far more determined ego, programmed to constantly keep trying it on, including repeatedly eschewing routine rules and expectations the minute you think it safe to look the other way (e.g. 'Yeah, I know yesterday you said take your shoes off at the door but I didn't know that meant I had to do it *every* day' / 'Oh, did you *not*, Forrest...right-o.').

I would have thought now were a time when he'd want to let his barriers down - wouldn't you? Worth a try, anyway - right? Tip: Try approaching him when he's in bed, lights already out; this atmosphere will encourage mental intimacy and openness (- think back to sleepovers where you and your friend(s) suddenly get very real and heartfelt in the minutes before you drop off).

PS: I doubt he'll end up suspended, not once the school learn of the serious home disruption going on at the time (which by then they probably would).

Re involving an adult:

Your mum's sister would be PERFECT! All you have to say to her is that you appreciate that mum and dad have their own wounds to tend to at the moment and, due to that, have forgotten to or can't face taking yours and your siblings need-to-know into consideration (yet), but that the ignorance over what's happened and why OR what they each intend, and the limbo it's thereby putting you three in, is killing you all - could she help, does she know anything that could put your three's minds at rest or at least give you *some* idea of where you stand more than not?...or at least speak to your mum and urge her to think about your present welfares?

Your boyfriend sounds like a total sweetie, by the way. Very thoughtful and considerate. :-) That'll help massively.

What do you mean, your dad's weird about you going out at weekends? How old are you, if you don't mind my asking? Clearly you're old enough to have a dependable boyfriend (which must mean he's a steady), yet I don't see you stating dad being weird about that part. So if you're not so young as to warrant his 'feeling weird' about you and your boyfriend visiting one of your rellies (which is perfectly bog-standard when you have a new bf or the relationship's hit the stage where introductions are due or even growing over-tardy) then I have to wonder whether it truthfully has more to do with his wanting you ever present, at his side, to pose as co-'crowd control'. That would fit with the typical mindset of the estranged husband/father that's having trouble accepting his new status quo (when that's what it is) and hasn't ever before had practise at being in 100% sole charge and attendance thus needs someone-anyone female, even his eldest or most responsible child, to stand-in as anywhere between the mum-figure or moral supporter (or even just as 'ideas person'). But that's *his* (adult) problem and *his* (adult) learning curve to conquer, not yours. Because you're not an adult yet.

He could ask outright, nicely, and then accept whatever your answer were (yes / no / just this once / once in a while, maybe) - sure. But he can't impose under an assumption that you automatically agree to grow up before your time (to that level, I mean). Anyway, couldn't you and boyfriend take your siblings with you, i.e. does it have to be an all-weekend jaunt, can it not be just a day visit? Maybe your dad would even *appreciate* one or more days to himself, to do some thinking or personal organising, considering he (I presume) normally works all week, every week, having only the precious weekends to cram everything in? In fact, you could couch the suggestion as if for his benefit (i.e. make his ego work with you), a la, 'I want bf to meet Auntie X so we thought we'd call in on her for lunch on Saturday or Sunday...I was wondering if you'd like me to take X and Y with me, give you a bit of a much-needed breather?'.


Back to the state of your parents' relationship:

Look at the clues:
1. Where is your mum trying to punish your dad by making his custody days anywhere between a giant headache and a no-go? (Even a saint can too easily fall prey to such Tweedledee and Tweedledum nonsense at their very early-on stage in this conflict.) Answer: nowhere, she's being perfectly cooperative and accommodatory towards him. So evidence says she's not furious with him nor feeling like there's no longer any relationship to protect and, thereby, any cordiality to preserve.
2. Likewise, where's your dad trying to punish her by being unreliable on that 'turning-up to collect or being in to receive' score? Again - nowhere. So neither is he furious with her and putting any reconciliation chance in jeopardy, either. (See? It's looking better already. :-))
3. They won't plant their flags, let alone in front of you three.
4. Neither is Auntie feeling there's any adult onus on her at present to contact *you*.
5. Neither parent is acting like they've just escaped from prison, going liberation-crazy and partying it up. When you know you're absolutely done with someone, YES, there is grief. But first - and background continuously from there - there's massive relief. Do you see evidence of any relief on either parent's part? I don't, I just (granted - courtesy of you) see two people who are hurting *still*, to the point of paralysed and not wanting to state intentions beyond the now.
6. Your father isn't approaching these weekends like it's going to become his permanent remit; he's getting you to do it *and* to a degree that has him 'feeling weird about you going out weekends'. He's not even *remotely* trying to start the supposed new lifestyle routine! This could very well be because he deep down knows it's not going to be a permanent thing.

See how many giveaway clues there are? I ain't even finished yet...

7. 'Routine snugglers on the sofa' are not typically 'headed for a break-up-ers'. Nope. People these days tend to leave emotionally first, in order subconsciously to ensure that the real deal, the 'once-impossible', of one of them packing and actually walking out the door *permanently*, isn't unachievable when up against having to face such a massive emotional wrench married with considerable fear of the unknown re the near and far future. Snuggling a lot in the run-up would defeat this object. And you said yourself there were no indicators, not even ones that could AND WOULD have leaked out from behind the 'net curtains' whereby your radar would have picked up on them.
8. Maybe she wasn't "too upset" to say why. Maybe it's more to do with the fact she knew she'd feel stupid to see you, her own child, afterwards going, 'Tsk, for god's sake, what a pair, I had no idea you two could be so **childish!'. And/or maybe she didn't know WHAT to say because - never having had the practise for getting good at having real humdingers before (not until suddenly you kids eased off a bit and gave them more room to re-start their previously put-on-ice romance, hence taking off an afternoon together?) - neither of them know what's supposed to happen in this situation, including how to handle the aftermath?

Well, **methinks you do now. And that's part of growing up, anyway, at the best of times, despite doesn't normally crash in this violently: you suddenly start to have it dawn on you that grown-ups - even your own parents - whenever emotionally over-roused, can be as behaviourally tw*tty as the next person. Age is no guarantor against that. They just know more stuff and can do more stuff and know how to play the great social pretence game of 'being a respectable grown-up'. Put it this way: me, I've never met one true grown-up yet!

Hope I've given you food for thought that's a bit more positive, and do keep us all abreast of things as they develop, won't you. :-)

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Soulmate, thank you I have taken in what you have said and it's has helped and made me look at this in a different ways, rather then dreading's got me thinking and given me hope! Even though over the weekend I found out my parents are selling the family home, so unbeknown to me there has been communication via email but only on this topic. who knows what this means apprently they were considering moving before they broke up. I don't know if this mean a potential new beginning if they do ever get bk together? That's me trying to look at it positively...I'm actually hoping the house never gets sold. It won't be so much of an upheaval for me really as I'll be going to uni next yr (I'm 18) for my bro and sis.

I will have to try that on my brother by talking to him in a more relaxed atmosphere e.g. just before bedtime. Like you said I like that idea, he might surprise me and be more compliant.

What I meant was by my dad acting weird about me going out, was when they first split up he was very up tight about me going out with friends etc. But I think he was struggling being on his own in the week and just wanted us with him not that he did anything to entertain us. So I didn't have a social life for a number of weeks and just saw my friends at school. He's slowly relaxing now.

I wasn't dating my bf at the time, when this all started, we only got together very recently, my dad actually really likes my boyfriend. Although I think he's dying to give me a lecture on being safe dispite my age and we're no where near that stage yet!

I'm speaking to my aunt tomoorrow, my boyfriend is keeping this weekend free incase we need to drive to her there would be no issue in siblings coming. I might surgest it to my mum first and sell it as a nice day trip to the seaside and see if she goes with it.

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"Even though over the weekend I found out my parents are selling the family home, so unbeknown to me there has been communication via email but only on this topic. who knows what this means apprently THEY WERE CONSIDERING MOVING BEFORE THEY BROKE UP."

Hah, I bloody knew it - they're just busy playing Poker! And even then, their bluffs are apparently fake thus without risk or forfeit! Late Onset (Relationship) Rebellion.

Don't worry, they'll calm down and see sense soon enough, I'd bet my house on it now you've told me that. Don't tell them I said this or quote me on it (they'd only deny it anyway), but I reckon they're perversely enjoying this on a deeper level. And also (noddalodda people know this), humdingers are usually both a form of rush-job in terms of bonding catch-ups/fast-forwarding and even more usually, underneath it all, a giant form of foreplay. (Sorry...realising I've probably just made you conjure up an image you'd rather not look at, LOL!)

PS: Then boyfriend's even MORE of a diamond! Take a quick stroll around this forum and you'll appreciate him even more than you do already. Excellent selector skills on your part, btw, given, one would think, your inexperience-based ignorance - kudos, that's no mean feat at your young age and stage considering there are women (and men) everywhere whom, despite thrice your age, keep attracting and choosing selfish and self-obsessed idiots, over and over!

PPS: Er.... you SURE-sure-sure you want to take mum with you? Don't you think that might make Auntie feel inhibited and constrained, as opposed to the looser-lippedness you're after? Or are you betting on them chatting some more together about the ins and outs of what's what, whereby you could (cough!) accidentally overhear from behind the sofa ("I was trying to find my contact lens...and then really wasn't sure about whether or not to show myself because you two had started talking in confidence" ;-))? I mean - fair enough if you do. You're entitled to be put in a picture that directly affects you as well as them so, if neither of your parents are doing that duty - you help yourself with Nature's blessing! I.e. just as justice and punishment would fall back to ordinary members of society and 'jungle law' if ever the Police were to down-tools, the same rule applies where parents aren't executing whichever of their parental duties, reasons of temporary emotional and intellectual incapacitation or not. Just don't ever let the new-found power go to your head. ;-) ...because, of course, with power comes the R word (ugh) and, if your age still ends in the word 'teen', you're not supposed to have finished being moreover light-footed and carefree just yet (present enforced circumstance excepted, obvs).

You're very welcome, not least because you're too obviously a very caring, considerate and mature young lady. Let us know how the visit goes? :-)

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Thanks again Soulmate, I see what you mean about getting my mum to go and if that was a gd idea. I was thinking more of just sitting down with my mum and aunt and having a talk and seeing if my mum would tell me. I don't know if that Niave of me Or if it would of worked.

But my mum doesn't want to go at the weekend anyway so I'm going with my bf instead. Yeah he is very lovely and willing and just wants to get me happy.

I don't expect my aunt knows much but I will let you know how it's goes .

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You're very welcome again, Lily31. And I think it's probably a good thing your mum doesn't want to join you because her presence might well have posed as an inhibitor to your aunt's freedom of speech. Speak soon, then! :-)

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Soulmate , I posted this the other day , what's your view? I realise I might be wrong and just imagined it.

I've not confronted either of my parents on this yet, as I'm waiting till I see my aunt over the weekend. It's half term at school next week to so Ive got a week off to got my head around things if I'm right.

Posted by LILY31 on Oct 20 2016 at 01:16 (GMT)
Hi, I was at my dad work place this afternoon, I go there sometimes after school and help out on reception or do some filing, my dads a gp. At the end of surgery my dad walks into reception with a nurse I've never met before. As they carried on talking I couldn't help but notice that is nurse was really flirting with my dad, She kept on laughing at everything he said, he wasn't being that witty and kept touching his arm. My dad is not a touchy feely person and normally, he'd get a bit uncomfortable but he didn't and I don't know, he just seemed to be looking at her in an odd way. He then introduced me to her and I said hi but she didn't seem that interested and carried in talking to my dad.

When my dad and the nurse left reception got a bit tearful , I'm slightly sensitive at the moment! and one of the reception ladies, who I know really well asked me what was wrong. I asked her if she knew that my parents had split up and she was really shocked and said no but wondered why she hadn't seen my mum around the surgery, she alway used to pop in to the surgery. She asked why they broke up and I told I had no idea and that my parents were being really secretive about it. We had a bit of a heart to heart and I asked about this new nurse, she's a locum nurse who started at the beginning of the end of spring , my parents broke up at the beginning of the summer. I feel like I'm a detective!

I talked to my boyfriend about this evening, I was being a bit quiet, and he thinks I'm over analysing, which I do, do but I can't stop because to me it all fits. My boyfriend pointed out that my dad really wouldn't make it that obvious, if he was in a relationship with this nurse. I don't know, it could be his odd/guilty way of trying to tell me. To me it all fits and I want to talk to my dad about this but I'm scared he'll get angry and think I'm accusing him if I'm wrong ? but he and my mum haven't left me with much choice but to speculate or question things. What should I do? Does it sound like I'm being silly? I just feel so sad that some one else had potentially come between my parents marriage and was hoping this would not be the outcome. Thanks for reading.

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(Are you saying you thought you'd already posted that message, yet it somehow didn't 'take'?)

Predator. Yep. Trying to bag a man that's normally out of reach (in more ways than one) but, hopefully, not this time because he's doubled-up from his recent punch to the stomach so - here's my one chance! But I imagine she's always been like that, to a degree, and he's used to it? After all, you try imagining, being that woman and going from routinely business-like and non-flirty up until the Tuesdee but then all of a sudden switching permanently to touchy-feely, a*se-licky flirty on the Wednesdee...Wouldn't happen, would it; switch like that, you'd come over as mad as a box of frogs. So he must be used to it and used to ignoring it, but *would* at that point have had to have introduced her (basically because, reading between your lines, she was hanging around that bit too long). It also wouldn't, whilst he was in professional thus stiff-upper-lip mode (emotionality on the backburner, logical, objective mind very much to the fore), have escaped his notice - her having mostly blanked you.

I have to say, though - had that been me, even at your age, I'd have found it too tempting to have said, 'Oh!...didn't realise you were wearing a hearing aid - I SAID PLEASED TO MEET YOU!!!'.

(By now you can probably tell I don't like predators of whatever gender, can't you. LOL)

But the more important point is, I cannot imagine that, had that flirting exhibition *meant* anything - in terms of feelings normally reciprocal - your father would have *dared* let the cat out of the bag like that...and to you of all people. I'm sure he'd have found some way, any way, to make her shut-up and back off. What I *wouldn't* put past him (or his subconscious, I should say) would be to fail to stop a woman he *doesn't* fancy back from making advances in front of you. Because then he can risk you making mum jealous enough to start re-showing her interest, yet with a totally clean conscience and, therefore, no fear of any confrontation over it and no fear of not coming across 100% genuine when (should it occur) denying her accusation. In other words, because your father and mother's relationship has, as a result of the lover's huge tiff, temporarily been developmentally shunted backwards, they're now like daters: he has to chase her and she has to bide her time and scrutiny before she, whoops!, gets out-run and netted yet *also, simultaneously* (due to the negative aspect of the fight) do the usual split-up dance steps as include 'treat her mean to make her keen' and 'play it cool'... which includes BEING FLIRTED WITH BY ANOTHER WOMAN ("Quick-quick, ask me back before stocks run out!").

Put it this way, I'd have been more worried if on the surface they'd *both* appeared strictly business-like and professional yet you were reporting that you'd seen stolen, loaded glances.

Good, canny move on the pouring your heart out to the colleague front! Don't know if you were aware you were up to anything, either at the time or in hindsight, but, even if - thumbs-up! *Now* if that silly locum doesn't rein herself in, she'll have to suffer the constant "evils" or even end up having to work under very, off-putting-ly chilly conditions indeed. But - be careful not to take so much responsibility for everything as if you can't trust your parents to get back together under their own steam. They managed it the first time round, didn't they?...or you wouldn't exist. ;-) So try to be a bit more Que Sera about this to keep yourself balanced. You want mum and dad back together because *they* want it that way, surely? Anything else would be forced and false...and that wouldn't be a recipe for success, now, would it....could delay things.

This is a process. It and they need to go at *it's* pace. Because they need to learn this particular dance routine IN ORDER to prove successful as a couple for the next phase. They need to risk each other, see themselves NOT lose each other after all....and then they'll have the particular strain of trust needed in order to feel certain that the other will definitely-DEFINITELY be there and be reliable for the other once they hit the final leg of their life journey as ends in "the" terminus to end all terminii (if you see what I'm saying?). This is an highly vital, mutual proving exercise so - if they're one of those couples that never had arguments or not enough, really, to notice and remark on then, they've got a lot of catching up to do in record time. Interfere in that at your own kicking-yourself-later peril.

You're not *over*-analysing - no such thing! (Just ask Einstein, he who "over-analysed" for thirty long years about the one mystery, an "over-analysis" we modern beans are supremely grateful for!) What you *are* doing, though, is getting stuck, finding yourself up against a wall that has to be broken through - with MORE thought, not less...and thoughts that you're prepared to face without 'flooding' and quitting or blinkering on. So me, I'd say you're *under*-analysing (but, still pretty damn impressive for your age, I'll give you that!).

"My boyfriend pointed out that my dad really wouldn't make it that obvious, if he was in a relationship with this nurse."

THERE YA GO! I don't know if you'll believe me, but - hand on heart, I hadn't read that when I wrote my own take! I tend to want to use both aspects of my mind (logical and emotional) working together as a team, which means I like to reply as I go, without reading ahead, so as to deliberately facilitate my knee-jerk reaction and then, if my conscious re-think produces the exact same conclusion, know that I'm objectively right, that it was genuinely gut instinct doing the thinking. And I and boyfriend's calculations and insight (and experience) matched perfectly! Chances are, we can't *both* be wrong. But then - why would we? This is *your* inability to see the woods for the trees because [1] they're your own, meaning the 'trees' are right in your face (whereas we're up on the hill, looking down) and [2] you're under threat, and being stressed to that degree handicaps your ability to process correctly or 'all the way'. But that's not 'being silly', that's being normal and healthy!

How's about this: instead of bothering that much to try to come to conclusions thus knacker yourself out, you just provide as much data as you can and feels pertinent, and let me and boyfriend, separately, provide you with the plausible conclusions? Trust me, if I spot *anything* fishy or indicative and which couldn't be put down to something perfectly innocent (as in 100% perfect fit, versus bad/difficult fit to something fishy or untoward) - I'll say so...even if at that moment you try to give me a hard time because you don't want to hear it and start getting "all unnecessary". I know cheaters inside-and-out, backwards-and-forwards, upside-down...strung up to a tree, ideally, (;-)). I'll spot something EASILY-PEASILY...and then add it to the whichever evidence table (Guilty - Don't Know Yet - Innocent). ...Although, when I say 'something', I do mean a SET of things because one can't possibly diagnose from one symptom alone and/or in isolation of other associative symptoms (I expect you know that, your dad being a doc, right?).

Chillax, you now have two "b*tches" to delegate to. ;-D

PS: Also/equally, she *might* just be sucking up in the quickest, "no-brainer-est" way possible because she's after a permanent job (fed up with locum-ing and/or likes that practise?) and believes that tack is the way to get asked or request-accepted to stay?

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PPS: *Don't* say anything to your mum about it. And not just because it appears it doesn't mean anything/isn't worth worrying about or worrying your mum with- ...that'd be her playing right into his hands, anyway, see. If he wants to play it cocky and cool (before finding out it dun't work ;-)) with your mum in order to (- typically romantically inept or inexperienced blokie tack -) first try provoking her into contacting him "to talk about the price of beans" - he can do his OWN damn workload! Who does he think you are - Cerano Bergerac?! :-p

He's not exactly James Bond, is he, your dad, LOL. I now wonder whether he even noticed or knew even if he did that what he was witnessing was flirting in the first place! (And there's another reason why you needn't worry at this juncture.)

But anyway, that's what his type do as a first attempt. Men are programmed to be very energy efficient (if they expended too much energy unnecessarily they could have starved to death before the next kill/catch, and then their whole clan or camp would die alongside). E.g. - ever seen your boyfriend do something like...try to reach the remote control with his foot, rather than just get off his lazy bum to get it properly?...and only when it fails miserably (enter humiliation), do it the proper way? That's what you've got here with dad...well, that mixed with fear and uncertainty as would make him even more inept than normal.

Parents split up

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Hi Soulmate,

Saw my auntie yesterday, minus my bro and sis my dad had actually made plan to do something with them. My auntie is really friendly and when we arrived she made a big fuss over Tom and gave us lunch. I thought she and I were never going to get to talk properly But after lunch tom walked into the town centre she lives near by, he thought it was a good idea to leave us to it! Then we got talking.

She was sad and angry on My behalf that myself and brother and sister know anything and how long this had been dragged out. she said had been debating on what to say to me but she told me It was only fair I knew and she could see I was so desperate to know something and she wanted to relief my stress.

The reason! my parents are very confused about their feelings for each other, as in if they are still in love and want to continue in their marriage. They been trying really hard for months to try and work things out discreetly between them. I suppose this explains putting the house on the market, new start?

My aunt says she thinks they're being silly, there's no real reasoning for all of this, theyre questioning things and if it's kind of like 'if it's not broken don't fix it' and they need to work a on their marriage and just keep going. She told my mum a lot of people go through this and question things.

On the day my dad moved out they had an argument to which my dad packed is things and left. They never used to argue before so like you said, it was well due!

A Huge part of me is so relieved to know this, it's like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I've now got my auntie to back me up and for support, along with tom and she says we're welcome to come stay with her anytime. at the same time though it's pretty gutting I don't know which way it will go! She said she'd speak to my parents indivially and tell them she's told me, I don't know how that will go down but I asked her now that I knew, how to I let me parent know - she was like leave that to me!

I did mention this locum nurse to her but she didn't think much of it. she said as far as she knew this was purply between my parents, no one else is involved and neither more so my mum is in the right frame of mind to be looking else where! I still can't help but wonder but I'm slowly letting go of this. You could be right she could just be after a permanent job I thought about this and it makes sense. My dad is one of two partners at his surgery, he owns the building too, and he's also acting as practise manger not always ideal, as he's a grumpy git half the time but his bark is worse then his bite. (No not exactly James Bond! )This is till he can be bothered to hire a pm, so he hires and fires as and when so nurse hunting for job perfect sense. I will keep an eye though when I'm there next week!

Then tom can back from town with a little something for me to cheer me up! And a little something for my aunt to say thanks for having him and giving him lunch, he was hardly there most of the time. My aunt practically melted in her chair at his guesture. She Then told me when she wasn't in the room, he was a keeper and to keep hold of him. I think so too!

So I'm not waiting for one or both of my parent to approach me or do a family meeting thing. I haven't said anything to my brother and sister.

It was such a good move, I feel so much more calmer. Thanks again!

Parents split up

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What a wonderful auntie you've got there!

I feel I've got 'Don't Know Yet' data... When you say your dad 'actually made plans with them', does that mean these plans suddenly surfaced, as in, the first you'd heard of them, and then only in direct response, timing-of-announcement wise, to your suggestion to give him Me Time or, something he'd planned before he could have had any clue of your own plan? Put it this way, when he said 'oh, but I've planned stuff already', or however he put it, did those plans (if appropriate to whatever activity) seem all sewn up in support of the impression, or were they more at mere idea stage...i.e. no tickets booked yet or whatever else you'd have expected to have seen already put into effect towards proving his idea had come first?

Your parents have definitely been for too long neglecting the romantic side of their marriage, by the sounds of it. Or dad's been neglecting mum and giving mum nothing to respond and reciprocate to? I mean, vis-a-vis that nurse and (what sounded like) his total non-awareness - he's not exactly sensitive to hinting, is he. Oh dear...and (if neglect is true) your mum probably wants a white-knight-on-charger come "Bond, James Bond" style grand gesture and intensity of re-chasing/wooing exhibition from your dad...

I suspect this is the other reason behind why the open-house invitation courtesy of your auntie. They'll need as much kid-free time as poss. *Especially* as your dad sounds like he *could* be too loath, still, to risk being left on his own with time on his hands where pessimistic thoughts can start 'knocking'... hence his seeming contradiction between wanting you to play quasi nanny/entertainer for him one minute, yet, the next, not wanting you to take them off his hands for such a protracted period. Take her up on it, is my advice. You've got a great excuse, it being half term week. Or better yet - when he comes to collect you all (am thinking, obligatory offer of cup of coffee) leave him and auntie alone while you three deliberately faff around with getting your coats and shoes on or get sucked back into whatever you were doing (boardgame, for example). Just a TINY bit of manipulation - or help - *or just being sensitive* enough to respond tactfully to cues, if you prefer - won't hurt. Those are the little things that *are* in yours and your siblings' control (and you know what they say about, taking care of the pennies meaning the pounds take care of themselves?).

"he's a grumpy git half the time but his bark is worse then his bite."


Is he a clompy cat-kicking type, is that what you're saying? And does the cat he kicks, being the 'nearest', tend to be your mum, even without his realising it or that it upsets her more than she tends to let on?

Tell me, did your mum get a promotion fairly recently, or something, some other boost or lifestyle change? Or the opposite - had cut hours or had plans to go part-time?

Yep, keep your eyes peeled, absolutely. You're not powerless, you know, even IF you need to be careful not to take on more than is good for your still-developing mind. It's about finding a 'nearly-adult'-sized balance, as I say, as well as controlling only whatever things are typically always yours to control. See, despite it doesn't appear sensible in the long run, your brother still *is* manipulating only those things that come into his own kid-remit aspects, think about it...reason being: "You can't split up because I need you even MORE at this juncture, not less!". Trouble is, it's negativity/hassle, which is precisely what they DON'T need right now. So - right idea, wrong execution, tell him. BUT!...he needs not to shoot over to the other extreme - good as gold (or they might in their minds put it down to their being separated, making it appear a good and needed thing). He needs to be THE SAME but whereby nothing can have any ADULT-sized repercussions... just petty sorts of typical teenager stuff. And then, from the other angle, start to ask each parent separately for help with this/that/this (prep projects, for example), to make both parents realise they need to team up TIGHTER, for the purposes of GAIN (there's the difference that makes ALL the difference) because they see signs that son is suddenly starting to direct his clearly massive energies (unused, idle intellectual fuel with nothing but mischief-making as his challenge) towards Successville. He needs to show them a product of THEIR OWN success of union-ship, you see. Get what I'm getting at? But again, he's got to be subtle about it.

"So I'm not waiting for one or both of my parent to approach me or do a family meeting thing. I haven't said anything to my brother and sister."

No - do. [1] You need to be a tight, solid team (it'll send a subliminal message and encouragement to your folks) and [2] you already know what torture the sibs are under, and you have the antidote. Slightly spin it or nutshell it however you want so that their negative imaginations can't spot anything to give them any leverage for throwing paranoid, pessimistic thoughts at them from any angle, but - you can't complain about your parents keeping you in the horrid dark if you're then going to turn around and do the exact same thing to them - right?

PS: Purply between my parents - ha-ha!, sounds like the name you'd give some alternative rock-band, LOL - catchy! Or was it a Freudian slip? ;-)

PPS: A keeper for sure! Is he going to the same uni or one where you can long-distance it?

PPPS: Be sure to brag in detail to dad about all the lovely wooing things Tom does...give him ideas. The guy obviously relies on your maturity of input so - there's how!

Parents split up

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Hi soulmate,

Yes my aunt is pretty awesome! She's had to go away for a few days, my cousin, her son, wife is pregnant and something has going on. But she's texting me every day and promised she will be talking to my parents as soon as by the weekend!

I would go stay with her but tom and I aren't at that stage of sleeping in the same bed yet, we're still early days and she's would just assume out of embarrassment of not wanting to ask and put us in the same room! There's always a first time, I suppose. Unless I pass my driving test tomorrow then I could drive myself! Altough I'm unsure about the motorway and getting lost! She lives two hours away!

You're right I thought about what you said about telling my brother and sister and I did tell them, I did soften it, i told them our parents had an argument and that I went to see our aunt and she's there to talk if they need her. I was expecting my brother to get angry kick off but he didn't. I think he was reassured and liked that someone was being honest with him. Btw way I tried taking to be brother just before bed like you said and it totally worked partly because I also made him a hot chocolate. We had quite a nice chat. then when I left his room my sister was like 'that's not fair where my hot chocolate?!' She Doesn't miss a any!

Thinking about it, it was very sudden that my dad decided to do something with my brother and sister. He took them to London zoo and tried to get me to go too. And was like why are you going again? HE looked a bit worried.

Oh no my dads not mean he's just a bit uptight sometimes. He's your typical English doctor he's very straight forward which some ppl like him and some don't and he's very aware of that and doesn't care! But there is a softer side too. My dad was fairly romantic before all this, he used o buy my mum flowers every Friday without fail and they alway went out for dinner once a month without fail. So I don't know what their missing from their relationship. My mum alway used to put him back in his place in her very sutle, nice kind of way.

My mum is a teacher, she has changed jobs and started at a new school in September. She now teaches year 5 kids where she used to teach year one. Think she got a bit bored of teaching abc's all the time and wanted a change does that tell you anything? She's the opersie to my dad and is a lot softer, very caring, she asks if I'm ok about 100 times a day! Bit annoying.

I think it's toms intention to go to uni, we wouldn't be going till next year still got a year of levels to get through. But if hope it the unis would be close enough. I don't think he's going to be a short term bf I know you can never tell but I really like him. He's into psychology but Hes also a very, very good chef, which I found out the other day!

I'm having a problem with my best friend at the moment she's gone all jealous because of me and tom, just what I need! could you possibly read my post 'what did I do wrong' wouldn't normally ask but the whole thing has escalated! So there are two parts! really like appreciate your advice on that problem? Could post it here if you want? you've made me look at things from a different angles quite a few times which has really helped. Thank you soulmate you've really helped lily xx

Parents split up

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Soulmate, sorry if I'm not meant to do this but just so you don't have to go scearching for the post, this is my other problem re my best friend, which I posted Saturday I think . appreciate any advice.

Relationship advice forum category advice forum category

This is to do with my best friend. We have been best buddies since nursery, and we've always been really close, never really fallen or not that I can remember. Until now lol.

Recently I got with my current boyfriend and her bf dumped her not long after. Awkward! There were very clear signs he wasn't that interested in her anymore, Like going out with his friends more then her, not showing her any affection and when they did go out, he was always really late I'm meeting her, which drove her mad! She could see the signs but she ignored them, hoping she could improve things with him. She started planning a holiday for them to go on next year when we finish school for good, which her bf really wasn't keen on and he made that pretty obvious. My friends and I tried to tell her this was not a good idea but she didn't listen. In the end my boyfriend tom who is good his friends with her bf, had a word and told him he needed to be honest with her and it wasn't fair he was dragging this out. I didn't instigate this btw it was between them, If she knew this I think she would think I did.

It ended badly for her and My friends and I were there for her. But ever since, she's absolutely hated the fact that I'm in a new relationship with a really nice, caring guy. She's very good at making me feel bad when I see him, and any nice sweet guesture Tom makes towards me, she doesn't like and has to comment. At the same time, she's quite nosey about our relationship, Like, are we sleeping together yet? Have we had our first argument yet? (no to both!) . I'm quite shy and I don't really feel it's her business but she's gets annoyed when I don't give her the nitty gritty. Really there's is nothing to tell!

Last week at school she asked if we could hang out this weekend, go shopping as our other two close friends are busy . I said I couldn't and apologised and before I could give an explanation, she rolled her eyes and said 'oh you're probably going out put with tom aren't you? What a b***dy surprise' . Then walked off!

Yes, I was going somewhere with Tom, we were going to see my aunt about my parents recent separation; so it was a really important visit to me. Tom had offered to drive me, give me a bit of moral support and make it into a day trip to the seaside. I didn't say anymore because the whole topic is too raw and she had made it really awkward. tbh I thought if she's going to be rude and just make assumptions, why bother telling her?

So yesterday in toms car on the way there, she starts texting me, trying to make feel bad and asked couldn't I spare a morning or afternoon with her? Did I have to see Tom all day? I admittedly didn't text her back, I was already worrying about what I was going to find out that day. I could also sense she was looking for an argument.

It was quite a hard day at my aunts, emotionally draining. When I got back last night I called her, to tell her where I had been that day and explain why I hadnt answered her texts. She was really angry with me and started shouting at me saying I had changed since I had been with Tom and I have no time for her and our other two friends anymore. So I told her I couldn't speak to her when she's being like this and I ended the call.

She knows about my parents splitting up and how it's been really stressful for me at the moment, she could of let me explain, Rather then shout about it. Maybe I should of told her but she keeps making me feel bad the moment I utter Tom's name and her facial expression is a picture! It's half term next week and she and I had made plans but I think she's needs the week to cool off!

I don't know if my other two close friend feel this. Also one of them is also a realatship and she's not like this with her, why me?. We're 18 not 8 fgs!

Thanks for read anyways.

Parents split up

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Soulmate And this is part two, what happened today :( -"apologies again if what I'm doing is bad. continues! I met up with my friend today. she sent a text last night and asked if we were still meeting up still or I had made other plans now with Tom now ? I was a bit annoyed at how the text was worded but I remembered what you guys said, stayed patient and reminded myself she was just upset and lashing out, which really helped, so thanks again! We arranged to meet in the afternoon.

This morning went I was helping out at my dads work place, it was crazy busy and a patient had shouted at me because their prescription wasn't ready. All the doctors refused to sign it till the end of morning, (which is a rule within the practice) the patient then went mad and stormed into my dads room, whilst he had a patient In there and complained to him! And my dad gave me a lecture! Ffs. Yeah thanks dad for not backing me up. So I was already stressed before meeting my friend. Anyways tom came in to say hi on his lunch break, which really cheered me up.I told him I was worried as I was going to be really late meeting my friend, so he said he'd drop me off in town. Remember, my friends ex bf was always late in meeting her and it really annoyed her. So problem solved. We met her in the car park and she sees me get out of toms car and her face is like thunder and she give me this look at if to say 'oh-my-god-I can't-believe-you-brought-him-with-you!' She looked so relieved when I told her tom was just on his lunch break and going back to work and I would that of been really late if he haven't of given me lift and she was then ok.

I had decided I wasn't going to bring up anything about the weekend unless she did. She was semi normal with me whilst shopping and we both slowly relaxed in each other's company and went back to normal. When we were done shopping we went to Starbucks and I asked her how she was with the break up. I thought I needed to check up on her and she clearly needed to talk, as she talked a lot , and I honestly didn't mind listening.

Then she asked me the question I now dread her asking me. what I was doing at the weekend ? I said I was free Saturday, thinking if I just told her when I was free that there would be no bad feelings and there would be no repeat of last wkend. But she ignored my answer, then asked about Sunday. so I said I was seeing tom and she gave me her usual look that makes me feel really bad and then she said can't you see him Saturday? As she was busy on Sunday. I explained tom was working then, so no I couldn't. I then asked her if she could please stop making me feel bad about seeing tom and how it makes me feel really uncomfortable.

She went completely on the defensive, saying she wasn't making me feel bad. I was the one who had changed not her, and hung up on her the other night. And all I seem to do is rub my relationship in her face. Then she used the example of when tom dropped me off that afternoon. I thought that was sorted, so I reminded her I would of been late and She said she'd rather me be late, which is a load of crap.

She then said all I had to do was swap things around, and how she would of done it for me. or could tom see if he could swap days at his work.

I told her I didn't see why tom should have to swap his days off or why I should ask him. I didn't dare tell her we had made plans already :-/.

Then she said well f**k off then, if you can't be bothered and then just walked off and left me! Then whilst I was still sitting there one of my friends texts me and asks what's going on because holly is really upset. I told her and she didn't reply, clearly she's sided with her. I don't know about my other friend yet. It's just so stupid and childish.

I can't win! I really tried not to react to this, which btw was all said in very low hushed tone were a couple of chavs who seek attention in public lol. I was nice and listened to her, and sympathised because she said struggling and misses her ex. I tried to protect her with my weekend plans that involve tom but she choose to question me and still makes me feel bad, then when she didn't get what she wanted and she tells me to F**k off! I wish I could of recorded it so my other two friends could hear how silly it was.

I've got a driving test tomorrow, which I'm so not in the mood to do now. I was hoping going to pass first time, don't think I will now. And I'm so not looking forward to going back to school next week.

Please be honest with me guys, so I can try and get this sorted, where have I gone wrong ? Do I really sound that horrible that I deserve to be told to F off? What does she want me to do not see tom at all? I'm really upset and just want my friend back L x

Parents split up

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* were Not a couple of chavs

Parents split up

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I'll have to be quick - got a lot on today - but here's my interim response:

1. Do you have to take Tom with you, rather than just the sibs, and get the coach or train or have auntie come collect? But no matter if she's promised to keep in regular touch; that's the important bit. (You sleep with Tom only when you find yourself inviting him to do so without thinking, i.e. feels entirely natural and time to. Do it sooner and you might, the pair of you, disturb thus delay your own bonding process. You're clearly very natural and sensible, NEVER doubt yourself and your instincts. Ever.)

2. I expect what your brother was most relieved about was that two people (you and auntie) bigger and more responsible had taken the reins, meaning, he can now relax somewhat.

3. Ha-ha, will do anything for hot chocolate, eh? ;-) (Did you make your sister one in the end?)

4. So it wasn't a pre-planned zoo visit, just a knee-jerk one. Noted.

5. Okay, *not* neglect, then. Just a very overdue, bonding type of humdinger between a diplomat and 'tell it straight' merchant. Good.

6. Ah-hah - new job! And a rise in confidence, including when it comes to self-asserting, standing up for herself and her rights. Noted again. I imagine she went overboard...but that's still just conjecture at this point (will watch this space for more clues...keep talking).

7. Asks after you repeatedly. Over-giver. Noted. A case of 'same play, different co-stars and only slightly different plot and script', is now starting to emerge.

Has your dad, do you think, been a bit of a take-taker?

PS: You're supposed to find her annoying at this juncture (and her, you), it's how nature pulls you apart more, ready for your departure from the nest without too many tears and regret. All normal and healthy.

(8. Tom certainly isn't acting like a short-term bf, he's acting like he's in it for the long haul (answer to your 'I know you can never tell': wanna bet? ;-)). So I wouldn't worry. PS: friend just doesn't want to get pushed out then lose you, ergo Tom is a rival; just reassure her. Meantime, I'll look at your above post about it first chance I get (tomorrow, probably). PPS: No need to thank me, it's purely my social obligation according to the laws of Nature as one of many camp elders to advise um camp youngers around um camp fire...if you appreciate what I'm saying.

Try not to worry about bessie mate or feel there's any urgency, yours is a natural, necessary fight as well, her condensed way of increasing *yours and her* bond. 'It's always alright in the end. So if things aren't alright yet - it simply isn't the end yet' - ber-bom! Say it 15 times (not joking, please do it - ta.)

Back soon. Best not to post again until I do or it'll get confusing. Sit tight, won't forget you, and once I start something to a certain depth I couldn't pull out even if I wanted to (don't want to, just saying).


Parents split up

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Soulmate with regards to my best friend, it's a 2 part problem, posted above for you. I look forward to reading your reasonings and having a clearer understanding and mind! By the way despite everything, I passed my driving test today...just, lol :-D freedom and more independence here I come ! Bye Lily x

Parents split up

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Well done! Get lots of practise in, driving solo just around your immediate neighbourhood, and then it won't be long until you've the confidence to drive yourself down to auntie's whenever you fancy it. PS: she married? I only ask because I noted no mention of any husband/uncle?

Sorry for the delay, btw. I had a difficult surgical molar extraction on Thursday (shattered at the root in three places, with one of the roots reaching up as far as into my front sinus/cheekbone - cuh, typical difficult me!) so was out for the count, pain-wise, all day Thursday and yesterday... didn't realise it was going to be so severe or that I was going to look and feel exactly like I'd gone a few rounds with Mike Tyson!

First post: Re your friend and you:

Since nursery... Let's face it, then - she's more your sister. Yep - why *wouldn't* she feel very threatened by what crystal-clearly is a non-typically mature and steady new relationship - *particularly* as hers just went belly-up - which, therefore, could quite possibly push her out of your life (no coupledom in common) or to the back of the priorities queue, just when she thinks she needs you most? But is she aware of the trouble you're undergoing at home? If she is then she's being very selfish as well as demonstrating that you and she had a bit of a, respectively, provider-dependent dynamic going on for too long, whereby now it's too difficult to make the very abrupt switch to taking a back seat in your life. But I wouldn't take it too seriously, as I say. She's just struggling with the new status quo and hasn't adjusted her psyche and lifestyle to it yet. But, she will. Common stuff.

And she's obviously (whether just right now or as standard) a bit of an insecure control-freak to-boot because - it's the bloke's job to whisk away for a holiday, not the woman's. Yeah-yeah-yeah - "modern women, modern times" and all that BS. Well, no amount of Feminism can make a difference because the wiring that activates when romance walks in is still stuck back in caveman times ("Femi-WHAT?!"), meaning, you can be as go-getting in the working arena as you like but *not* in the romantic one. It just doesn't work, not if you're going to take *men's* choices away from them in the process of 'having it all' (no such thing anyway, it's just sales fluff for DOING IT ALL!). Not if you want the relationship to develop naturally and healthily to where it has longevity potential, anyway.

He still Tarzan you still Jane, certainly when talking about behaviour/acts *that* meaty as subverts the what-should-be natural dynamic. It does nothing but make the man feel like HE'S the woman being wooed....Very emasculating, highly devoid of any challenging chasing and working (wooing) to keep.... Yawn & Emasulation City for any healthy, red-blooded male. So I'm not surprised he wasn't interested. He wants a nut to crack, not one that comes pre-shelled and on a plate. (Be a bit like an antelope walking up to a lion and saying, 'Eat me!'; where's the fun and excitement in that? Nowhere.) So the bloke, in his search to articulate WHY he isn't into a woman he should have been and ordinarily would be into on paper, comes up with vague and incomplete answers like 'she was too desperate' or 'she just didn't quite do it for me'.

There'll be a bit of envy in there, too, I should imagine. At your ages, friendships include a lot of competitiveness. BUT... real friends know to keep a lid on that sort of thing and mainly feel happy for you and cheer you on. So maybe you and she have just outgrown each other? If you want a friendship to last for life then it has to have a solid foundation and first floor in common, not just a roof. And that foundation is called Core Morals. Aside from flexing a little in response to whatever situational adjustments, those things tend to stay with you for-life. That way, no amount of changes in either of your circumstances can affect the relationship or cast it asunder.

But I can plainly see you're not squeaky clean in all this, either. You're encouraging her to panic. Example, when she started rolling her eyes and spitting the dummy, you could quite easily have said, 'Hang on a minute!' - or even roared a very loud 'STOOOOP!', and explained, *and* offered her something else/another time to make up for it - couldn't you? (I know you did it later, but I'm talking about at the time...being more efficient and preventative, rather than (like dad) curative.) Or emailed her soon after if she really wouldn't give you a chance to put her straight? Certainly *not* added insult to injury by failing to respond when she texted. So it sounds to me like you're quite prepared to let her go - or *think* you are - which she can sense happening and is struggling against for all she's worth, with the aid of a bit of emotional manipulation by showing her petulant hurt and resentment.

Put it this way: if, hypothetically, something happened to Tom tomorrow, leaving you back on your tod in that regard, wouldn't *you* be upset if your 'sister', the one you thought you could automatically run to, was neglecting you? But maybe you wouldn't if you knew AND UNDERSTOOD exactly what she were dealing with, i.e. knew it wasn't anything personal and was for a really important cause? And then she wouldn't have had time to have worked herself up into a persecution-complexed lather. Because once someone gets that level of negativity and paranoia in their head, it's very difficult and time-consuming to UN-do it.

I repeat: AS YOU CAN SEE, 'leaving her' does *not* cool her off and instead just achieves the opposite - ironically, the very climate you were trying to avoid yet has now grown TEN-fold. Next time, therefore, don't leave her for hours on end to her own negative, festering imagination; tell her then and there/at the time, p*ssed off with you initially for a few mins or not. Just let her get her 'p*ssed-off-ness' out of her system and out of the way so that she can be back her more normal, seeing-sense self. In short, you're inflaming and elongating the situation rather than sorting it.

(She may 'know' about your situation, but has she got the level of empathy and insight to relate to it or realise exactly what it involves? Doesn't sound like it, does it.)

Or you could even shut her up in one fell swoop by sending her a bouquet/chocs with a lovely note to reassure her that she's *not* suddenly transformed into someone whom everyone finds so automatically rejectable, at the same time thanking her in advance for her tolerance and patience during this very difficult, very full-on time. For example, 'Will you please stop panicking and just give me some room to sort my sh*t out? I'm only not involving you because you've your own sh*t right now and don't need mine on top. I'm *never* going to chuck you, not if I can help it. Because you're not just my friend, YOU'RE MY SISTER! So it's not a case of If (re us hanging out again), just When. But I'm really sorry the timing of our respective unhappy situations happened to clash like this. Bear with and remember I need you as much as you need me, please?' You could even be cleverer by suggesting a set-in-concrete, forward date. I mean, I imagine Tom has stuff of his own to do at least *sometimes*? (Again, I'm talking 'at the TIME', nipping potential animosity in the bud.)

But before you even think of doing that - *do* you want to keep her friendship or don't you? Get that sorted in your mind first and then your behaviour to-suit will naturally follow (and naturally not p*ss her off). As it stands, you're demonstrating a split mind on that front so she's getting mixed messages and [wait for it] is as stuck in horrid Limbo as your parents have made *you* experience.

At least give her a definite light to indicate where the end of the tunnel is, each time.

Seeing it now?

PS: The "But *I* want Sunday" was just a case of 'Which one do you love more?'. Think about it - you'd normally expect her to want the Saturday, wouldn't you. But I doubt the 'eff you!' incident would have got to that stage, had you dealt with her sooner. Again - seeing it? But...that doesn't make her conduct warranted or justified, no. Definitely not. There again, when DID headless chickens behave sensibly and like their normal selves?

You're a natural-born leader, Lily. But people are over-estimating you. Because you never show them *your* weaknesses and fallibilities. That's all this is. Which leads me nicely onto...


"And my dad gave me a lecture! Ffs. Yeah thanks dad for not backing me up."

Hmm. De-merit for dad. You're 18, not 38. And you're not even a formal employee. So who's to blame here? Is it a case of you having for too long sold yourself convincingly as Supergirl or him having for too long set that as the bar which you've then tried to rise to? Or if a bit of both - to what ratio?

You've got a lot of 'putting people straight' still waiting in your intray, haven't you. So why aren't you doing it or doing it properly in one fell swoop? Why do you have this pattern of keeping you head down and hoping things will blow over by themselves? And why, at eighteen, aren't you saying to your dad, 'Now, look here, you, you've got a cheek?!...'? Do you not realise that at this juncture he would take it and back down immediately? And here's why: at root, all these people are trying to provoke you in whatever ways they can to take charge and care of *them*. This is all 'heelp meee!' style bullying going on here, not gratuitous cat-kicking, the object being to lure you into being the boss of them (because, "whaah!", they want their mummy, basically).

Here's a golden phrase for you: 'What is it you want and feel entitled to from me that you feel you're not getting or not sufficiently getting?'. Making them voice their expectations out-loud like that will make people stop and think about whether whatever they are expecting is fair or decidedly the opposite (or even downright unrealistic). They're just too addled and panicked to monitor their own behaviour, that's all, despite are still capable of judging yours.

To summarise, I think you've been doing too much and being too much to other people, more than was strictly age-appropriate, meaning, now that a huge project has landed in your in-tray you can no longer cope with the overall workload. Biting off more than you can chew.

Finish whatever things you've started and then take a holiday (in Tom's pocket). OR - since he's clearly Mr Keenly# SuperHelpful with time and energy to spare - ask him for even more help and input? You'd do the same for him if the roles were reversed, wouldn't you? There you go, then.

But here's the crux: who on earth told you that a particularly strong coin doesn't have a flipside? In actual fact, if you're "very strong" on one side then you're more likely to be accordingly "weak" to the exact same degree on the other, despite you may stay head-side up most of the time. If you'd done what I reckon you felt like doing with Holly at the time, which is BURST INTO TEARS, she'd have instantly seen the error of her ways and felt like a complete rotter AND IMMEDIATELY BACKED DOWN AND PROCEEDED FROM THEN ON WITH FAR MORE CARE AND CAUTION. In short, if you make like a huge rock then you're going to get people taking a break and sitting on you. Logical - right? Let them hear you make slight cracking noises from time to time or after any protracted sitting episode, and they'll jump off quick! Simples!

*Send (or drop round) the chocs/bouquet*. Make her feel like the accidental, unwitting cad she is...but in the nicest, most embrace-able way possible.

Parents split up

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Hi soulmate,

No my aunts not married. she split up with her husband 20 something years ago after their second son was born, and he basically abandoned them and went to live in another country...nice. One of my cousins tracked him down but the other isn't bothered and doesn't want to know. She's had partners in the last but they never last long partly because she has early Parkinson's since her late fourties, she says she doesn't want anyone to have to look after as she gets older she'd rather go into a residential home. I think she desvers to be happy personally - all her past partners were nice.

Yeah My friend is fully aware of what's going on at home she's the first person I told about my parents and she was, shocked but great in supporting me through their separation. So if I wasn't thinking straight she knew exactly why but when her bf dumped her she she still choose to make me feel bad about tom. Where as you'd think she'd be like encouraging and wanting me to have something good going for me.

I have also tried spread out my time with both my friends and tom. At school he plays football with his mates most of the time, I have one lesson with him and he has a job too. So i didn't leave her our other two friend out. One thing I didn't want to do anyway friends are important! Also with stuff going on at home I don't feel like I've had time to change apart from feeling happier.

She, Out of of my small group of friends (there is four of us) has received the most male attention because of her looks and she knows it and has never been scared to brag about it or admit it either. She hides behind her looks so I don't think past boyfriends ever got to see the real her. And now maybe as her best friend now I've got a bf and she hasn't she's probably not finding it easy?

I agree, I'm not squeaky clean in all of this! I should have been more honest with her on the drive down to my aunts when she texted me. Even tom pointed out me to be she didn't actually know where we were going and if she knew she might back off and just to be straight with her. But I really didn't want to enter that because if it turned into an argument and I didn't think she would of been very reasonable about it. Now I can see what you mean by she went into a negitive mindset and was probably wound up all day. I didn't actually hang up on her I told her I was going to end the call if she didn't stop shouting and she carried on so I ended it. She was warned, I do have a bit of backbone! Normally I probably would of got upset but instead I thought F you too and went out with tom and my other friend to the pub instead! I think I might try and make up with her like you suggested and need to learn to deal with things when there happening not bury my head in the sand like you said. And Be more assertive?

I did argue back with my dad after his stupid lecture, should of put that but I was trying to keep the post short! I find it a lot easier to do with my family! Pointing out that firstly he invented the 'no signing prescriptions or paperwork during times when gps are seeing patient', then he went back on his own rule?! What's the bloody point?! He also needs to look at this rule because he needs to realise the amount of pressure reception staff are put under when they are told no. He needs to back them/me up basically when a patient does gets irate. He was more annoyed that patient randomly walked into his room whilst his examining someone, but there was no way I could of stopped that, unless I sprinted and rugby tackled them! Even then he still probably would of told me off.
Secondly he was busy for ages so I couldn't go to him first and he wasn't duty doctor that morning either.
Thirdly I'm only there to help out! He doesn't pay me that much and I'm only really, at his request, only meant to do small thing like tea coffee, handing out prescriptions and just be a back up person for reception staff if it get busy. The problem is most of the patient know, I'm his daughter too (the inherited aurban hair and the fact I'm practically a female version of him is quite obvious!) and some are really nice and others think I can just go into his room and sweet talking him into signing their prescription. And lastly I'm happy to do admin things but I don't want to help out on reception again, too stressful. He shut up after that :) but it took him a day to see sense and apologise to me. So I can be feisty when I feel like it.

Parents split up

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Soulmate on Friday this happened with re parents, I don't mean to confuse things it just happened unannounced! I know the actual reason now. My dad came round to the house on Friday and him and my mum spoke to the three of us. my aunt, although she doesn't know the full story, had demanded they talk to us or she'd be down asap to sort everything out. Ha go auntie! She's so cool, I love her.

Sadly no laughing matter.

Long story short, theyre not getting back together. They said things haven't been right for a while, they really tried for months but things had fizzled out and there was no spark. They hid and acted that very well, I'll give them that as that's not what it looked like from my perspective!

secondly - this was the big shock, they have both met some one. this was my biggest fear :(...They're are claiming these to people are 'friends' , who they have not cheated on each other with, which I'm not sure if I can believe? They both met these people and before things started to develop, my parents discussed with each other honestly. I know it was probably a hard and confusing time for them but they could of been honest with us too or me at least! In the end it lead to an argument, which caused my dad to leave and them both being upset.

I asked my dad if his 'friend' was the locum nurse I was with him and he said no. Phew! She looked like a right cow.

I might add I want nothing to do withtheses 'friends'. I don't want to meet them and be nice to them , I don't want to know their names, what they look like, where they live. Nothing. And I told my parents, I don't want to know. Not yet. I'm far too upset and angry at the fact their not getting back together, let alone there are two other people involved. I have no idea if that's reasonable. Tom seems to think I might want to know soon!
At the moment I can't see how they could sit there, two highly intelligent people and tell us this after keeping it tight lipped for so long, it feels like I don't know who they are anymore? I understand they might of been trying to work things out them selves but this feel like something off of a crappy day time talk show.

I said they owe it to three of us to give us a break and get our heads round this, they had their chance to do this whilst acting depressed and emotional we have been left in limbo for ages.

My aunt didn't even know about these 'friends', my mum said she didn't say anything to her, of course she didn't! which makes me wonder if they are being completely honest with us?

One good out come is they think they can be very good friends. My sister asked them if they think they can be good friends, then why can't they be married? And she hopes their friends are horrible and ugly Poole so they'll get back together ha. Good question sis! But I guess having them as friend thats going to have to be enough and better then nothing.

I went out on Friday on my own just to cool off a bit and get my head around things. I met tom in the evening told him everything whilst trying not to cry! and went out with him in he evening with friends and I stayed at his, his parents were away and I didn't want to go home! Even though we were little bit drunk and slept in the same bed he didn't try anything on ...infact I think I might of tried to make a move but he stopped me saying it wasn't the right time I was upset. I think I responded well! keeper.
Yesterday I scoped up my sibs from home, tom was working, And took them out with me, they needed to have a bit of fun, this was whilst my parents continued to dwell on their own self pity or this is a guess, maybe gone to see their 'friends'. I don't want harry or Sophia at home or at my dads under the new strange atmosphere that been created without me, if I can help it. We are all talking civilly to my parents (well my brother is questionable!) but that's it. To say I'm feeling protective of my bro and sis is an understatement!

Today tom has insisted it's ok they come out with us and I'm actually amazed he hasn't run a 1000 miles. I can't really see how he can support me in this. He hasn't met my bro and sis properly yet so this could be interesting but I think they're too upset to misbehave or embarrass me! We'll see it might give them some entertainment!

What Are they trying to put us in therapy or something?! I'm beginning to think I'm going to need it!

I don't really know if I've reacted in the right way or if I'm even being reasonable about these other two people involved. It's just a bit too much!

Lily :( Hope I haven't bombarded you too much info I needed to get it off my chest too!

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Nah, you haven't bombarded me. If you had, I'd have no compunction about just saying so, no worries. And that aligns with what I've been wanting to say to you:

There is nothing wrong with being a control-freak or "superwoman/man" or *anything*. The great machine NEEDS a huge variation in cog types and sizes. As long as you do it right (especially whereby whenever you succeed/win, *everybody* side-benefits). So it's about knowing what's yours to super-control and what isn't, akin to the Serenity Prayer: 'God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference'. But it's not meant to be Black & White/All Or Nothing, meaning, you can do as much as is within your power and skill over everything/anything and then wait and SEE whether Fate/God worked with you in it (= however much success) or worked against you (= however much failure). Que Sera, Sera, at least you've DONE *your* responsibility or used *your* god-given talents, which is all that's asked of you. In a nutshell, always try properly and then you *can't* beat yourself over the head later if the outcome isn't the one you wanted (you were blocked and for a (always) good reason you just didn't have the crystal-ball to see).

You're not sure which levers and dials are yours to manipulate. So you do everything and frequently "over" or "under". Saying that, your wisdom and finesse will grow more automatically with more experience.


What kind of woman would prefer strangers to wipe her nose and bum over a soulmate? Answer: one who never got given the practise and demonstrations of how to become truly intimate with a man. SCOOBY CLUE! How, we wonder, did that parental-example situation affect her sister, your mum? And did she transfer that into her marriage, either via her choice of man or how she treated him and signalled how she insisted on being treated?

I think BOTH your parents, despite which triggered it, have entered (Mid Life) Crisis. Not hugely, but still... "The [figuratively-speaking] drugs don't work, I'm not pain-free, I'm still saddled with useless baggage, NOW what?!". I think your parents are academically advanced but emotionally and romantically behind their ages, MEANING, where other people's in-trays at their age are easy to manage, theirs contain too much "old and off stuff" that still demands to get read, understood, filed singly or in duplicate in whatever appropriate memory-to-present/future-operational files (so that they can better tackle their lives and lifestyles from here) (and some parents only realise the passage of time through their kids 'suddenly' hitting certain, unignorable/unmissable milestones, LIKE the firstborn leaving home and the 'little sweetie' suddenly behaving delinquently like a wayward semi-adult). Their emotional workloads are now crying out for attention, with the pair of them and their marriage the ones to suffer (for a while). I imagine they can't cope with the past stuff in that tray *and* the present and future workload of each other, simultaneously, on top of their demanding careers and family, hence have sensed they need to 'study' separately, yet without having understood or managed to articulate what's happening and why into 'word-thought' so - rather than hold their hands up to ignorance in front of their proud selves and each other - have pounced on the nearest plausible suspect: this heartache must stem from our union. In other words, they're presently just very confused and unable to pinpoint the truer source of their sense of discontent (their parents and upbringing).

Some couples never do identify the truer cause and end up divorcing, only to have to get back together, cap-in-hand, anything up to 10 years later. (This escapes the statistical data, however, because these types typically tend to opt *not* to re-marry legally-officially whereby it gets data-recorded, but is still in reality far more prevalent than one would think.) Some do and save themselves that waste of time (albeit, saying that, in actual fact, no lesson is ever a waste...quite the opposite...albeit, does delay practical achievement/progress).

I really don't think you have anything to worry about vis-a-vis your parents. I still think it's just a joint-developmental GAME (or exercise, if you prefer). Only, to them, it feels serious and so that's what's getting communicated to you and convincing you as equally as it is them. You need to tut and roll your eyes, vow that you and Tom or whomever will "NEVER act so pratty as all that", and then later down the line find out that, yes, you will (albeit probably to a far lesser degree), and couldn't stop yourself even if you tried. Human beings are at times complete tw*ts and always have been, and that is that is that. Sooner you (anyone) accept that multi-faceted-ness, the sooner you'll be happy and stay happy.

...Which leads me nicely onto Holly: if she's upset beyond a certain degree, Holly will be in prat mode, NOT thinking straight or expansively, and focused only on her OWN pain. You wouldn't expect someone in hospital with leg in traction to offer to get out of bed and do X for you or give away any of their precious painkillers so neither should you expect anything very helpful or sympathetic from her, either. She's in *psychological* hospital traction, see. 'Me-me-me!'. Same as you were focused on your own state-of-mind protection and preservation when electing to let her flounce off in that huff then stew and fester (and ditto your ignoring her texts in the car). You weren't thinking about her needs, only your own (albeit not to the same degree as her because you're obviously the stronger, more grown-up and more 'caretaking' one; she needs you more in that regard than you do her). She's not herself lately, in other words. None of you will be (ditto the varying degree part). You're ALL of you in 'me-me-me' mode.

(To put it into a frame of easily-understood reference - you've badly stubbed your toe ...pure, all-consuming agony...and right at that moment someone asks you for input or help with something. Your response is going to naturally be nothing but 'Aaaaargh, EFF OFF!', no matter the exact phrasing or sentiment. That's what you've got going on here... along with other elements, like, her having misbelieved looks were everything or that hers made her more attractive thus keepable than you (so she's got some re-thinking and re-filing of old, mis-filed emotional sheets to do on top of her ongoing and new ones).)

...Except for good ol' Tom. But it'll be his turn at some point, don't you worry. We all ride the roughly same rollercoaster.

I think you're perfectly assertive, actually. All you lack is simply knowing WHEN/HOW QUICKLY to assert. But you're squeaky-cleaner than most, that's for sure, to be able at your age to concede your own part played and self-examine and -criticise. Some people never manage that and die under a huge veil of illusions and self-delusions, not having been the type to have had smooth-running personal lives.


Ref 'what's the bloody point': I think your dad was just trying to cook up an excuse to go 'Whaaaaah!' and felt safe enough to do it to/in front of you. (He MUST do that with mum, surely?!) But if we ALL did that, the world would be a really crap place so - good, glad you 'gave it back'. ON THE OTHER HAND, *sometimes* the person behaves that way precisely BECAUSE they know you're 'good for it', i.e. will rear up at them in response, thereby giving them exactly what they were after - an excuse to have a steam-releasing barnie with a sparring partner. So you've got to learn to know when it's right to and when to refuse to, which relies on working out, from the seriousness of their situation, whether they've the wherewithal to resist and are just being self-gratuitous versus when it's only to be expected and would be a perverse favour on your part (assuming you can secretly find it kind of amusing, i.e. rise above it, rather than let it get to you).

Dad probably has a LOT of things he "needs" to do right now and lately, but, like Holly, is on a bit of a drugs trip (angst and panic) and not coping. Still - very positive sign that he can apologise!

Email him this, that should put him back in his box - for all future times as well...WITH a smile on his face - as well as would be a good way of saying, 'okay, I'll let you off ;-)':


Go auntie!!

Your parents statement: Ooh, tried FOR MONTHS. Someone give'em a lie-down and then a medal for their determination, perseverence and tenacity! :-p

I don't believe them. THEY believe them - clearly. But I don't. Not one iota. Unfortunately for them, they're missing an awful lot of associative signs and symptoms, all the biggies. So they can 'meet someone else' as much as they like during this period, won't do them any good, the relationships will just rebound horribly and have them missing one another like uggery. Again - it's a process. Just because the process has side-paths featuring beauty-spots or sets of swings, doesn't make it any less of one, doesn't change the end terminus.

Leave them to get it out of their systems. And note - HOW FUNNY that they've BOTH 'met someone else' at the same time, what were the bleedin' chances! What are they - Torville & Dean? Nah. They're still just playing belated Poker: I'll see your "someone" with MY "someone".

Don't blame or take it out on the "friends", though. They're just what's known as the unwitting, over-gullible co-star, s/he who gets pulled in for effect, whom themselves either *do* genuinely want a relationship (and end up feeling horribly used but vitally wiser) or (Like Attracts Like) themselves need to 'pull in the other woman/man' (as it's known) for leverage and a form of showing each other their muscles. It won't work, it CAN'T work, and will last all of 'five minutes'...reason being, they're not detached from each other yet, meaning, they'll only be plonking the other person straight into "the ex's" vacated space (which the Other Person will quite quickly realise). "Users/Mutual Users, anyone?". Only if they'd told you they were separating and, at whatever point, confided that, UGH, they didn't want ANY relationship with ANYONE - ever-ever-ever, UGH! - would I be panicking on your behalf or taking this even partway seriously.

Emotionally, your parents are about 8 to 10 years old. Thus acting like it. Haven't had enough drama, been too busy being responsible mini-adults before their time.

In other words, THEY'RE not instinctually treating this event or these so-called new relationships seriously nor embarking on them in a way that spells any kind of lasting-ness AT ALL. If this were a Scrambled Egg recipe, it would read 'whisk eggs vigorously and then crack eggs into bowl' (in fact, in their case it'd read, 'and then crack aubergines'). What they're doing is just another form of sparring and 'showing him/her!', which doesn't encourage detachment, it actually encourages RE-ATTACHMENT. But they'd never tell themselves or you that or else they'd lose the impetus for seeing it through.

It's just a big, messy FIGHT. With pulled-in witnesses, aided, I'm sure, by the huge drum-roll in the run-up (refusing to tell anyone, keeping everyone in suspense, watching their space... a way to ensure they have plenty of sensible supervision in case they ever take things too far). But in the same way that neither, strangely for their stage and mind-frames, obstructed the other's custody - notice how (whether or NOT it's BS) STILL the playing field is being kept perfectly equal? Nobody is winning, nobody CAN win. They're headed the whole time FOR A TIE. See it? Course you can. Which is precisely why you chose the term 'crappy daytime game show'. (Jerry Springer ;-)) Well done for spotting it!

And that's the key in these sorts of things: ignore all the ridiculous blah-blahs and just watch the actions and what they mean or indicate. Actions-actions-ACTIONS! Actions can't lie, only consciously chosen words can.

They're *not* highly intelligent, Lily. That's you (and Tom). They're academically intelligent but emotionally thick as pig sh*t. But here - what they're doing - is an extreme and rush-job form of *gaining* emotional intelligence... which is what I've been trying to explain all along. NOTHING - no...THING they've been doing so far, including the order, aligns with people who genuinely are breaking up. Quite the opposite.

All your parents are doing, is PUKING, that's another way to look at it... Sticking their fingers down their own and each other's throats to get out all the useless toxins and rubbish that was force-spoon-fed when they were younger. It's not always pretty to watch, if you're one of the great uninitiated, though, I'll give you that.

Me, though, I'm chuckling wryly through my nose and rolling my eyes at them. Join me! And watch that space, sorry- that lab... In other words - yeah, VERY good friends. ;-) I expect they're both very intrigued with the other right now ("who are you and what have you done with --?"). What a wonderful refresher and foreplay session (, badly and childishly done).

"infact I think I might of tried to make a move but he stopped me saying it wasn't the right time I was upset."

Christ, what a diamond you've got there!!!!! Tom for president! *And* you. Excellent sisterly behaviour!

Maybe that's part of why your parents feel at liberty to act like the kids they never got the chance to get out of their systems back when it was on the menu? Maybe you were always the secret parent of that whole family? Did that ever occur to you? That would explain perfectly why your first-ever relationship is more like your 10th and, by the same token, how you chose a likewise ahead-of-his-years soul such as Tom (and vice-versa for him)?

Go for it - show the pair of toddlers how it should be done! :-) You *are*, after all, the upgrade of those two pieces of software-on-legs. And so are you supposed to be, nature's-design-wise. But you are still technically only 18 with only an 18-year-old's stomach, so - use it or lose it! (followed by (like those two) being compelled to do it decades later when it can affect other involved people, including littl'uns who take it seriously). See how the pass-the-parcel gets passed down the line now? You (and with your help, your sibs) can be the Full Stop, you can find that BALANCE that they never found and pass that BALANCE down your (and your sibs') lines. This lesson contained in all of this, is called How Not To, which is far more impactful and indelible than How To.

Have I peeled your eyes open that much wider, by any chance?

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You have definately opened my eyes, it's does all make sense.

that's what my aunt says she does want another person to have to look after her and wipe her bum when she can't! She's lovely but fiecly indeed at the same time and has ended relationships when she feels shes getting close and I think the men are really disappointed. She tell me alsorts :).

true I think some academic people do lack common sense or struggle emotionally. My dad is one of them.

I think it's very convientent they both managed to meet two people at roughly the same time. I do wonder who it was first. Part of me can't help but thibk one of them may of had a fling, then told the other and they thought ' sod you , I'm going to go and find someone else too! ' . Like you say all childish. Tom also thinks they might see these two people are their 'rescuers' . as in they both believed they were uphappy and listened to negitive Thoughs feed off each other and these two people wee the closest to them and they though they were their escape out of their what they believe to be 'unhappy marriage'.

I can't quite stop thinking about my sister question to them 'if they think they can be really good friends then why can't they stay married? ' if they're saying they can be good friends they surely can see some sort of light at the end of the tunnel? Unless they softened it for my sisters benefit, which my parents do, do she's 11 nearly 12 not 6, she's fully aware of the birds and bees and her body is changing too, so they to start talking to her properly.

Admittedly I'm getting curious about these to other two people, like tom said I might (not sure if he landed that seeding my head) To see who my parents have picked as a partner who they believe they could get more happiness from?! And now that I've calmed down I probably would be civil if I met them. I found that quite interesting when you put they may want a relationship but they ain't gunna get one, not a proper one anyway. I almost feel sorry for them. My mum is far too emotional and tearful and my dad is miserable and they are both potentially depressed. Not really great catches! Unless they stick a smile on their faces and act differently, around these people, they're quite good at doings that!

I spoke to my aunt last night and she's thinks midlife crisis also she going to speak to my mum. She also just just keep talking to them. Ow we know what's going on keep asking questions and challenge them (nicely) which might not e a bad idea.

Had a really nice day yesterday with tom went to a park (I drove :) ) for a walk. Was a bit unsure as to how tom would be with the sibs partly because he's the youngest in his family, he's got two older brothers Who are in their early and mid 30s - tom tells me a was a surprise baby! I love other people's family dynamics. But he was really good with them and they like him too, even my brother who doesn't like many people talked a lot or moody . The long walk must of released endophines in to my bro and sis because they brightened up pretty quick and did not hold back on telling tom stories about me of course he was encouraging them. Especially my sister if I had duck tape on me, her mouth would of been sealed! For two kids who fight like cat and dog at home they showed they are capable of being nice to each other and work as a team.

Got a teacher training day today so I'm going to try and make up with holly today if she answers my call,
Or I might just drive round her house! it could go one way or the other but I'm prepared to nip things in the bud asap if she's the same as last time!

Was meant to say Hope you out of pain with the tooth removAl sounded grim.

Lily x

Parents split up

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When I said 'what were the chances' and 'Torville & Dean', I was being sarcastically cynical (realistic, actually), as in, I don't believe for one piddly second that they've somehow magically managed in complete yet independent synchronisation to both "find somebody else". I obviously can't say for certain, but if you were to ask me to place a large monetary bet on either, I'd without any hesitation put it on 'Come OFF IT, who DO you think you're kidding?!'.

Listen, ALREADY we've seen them cooperating and collaborating (over sharing custody) where other couples these days under such a climate wouldn't (understatement!) - right? And already we've gathered they really didn't want you kids knowing any ins and outs and asking any questions (that they haven't got answers to yet). So, what with you having got Auntie stepping in, I can quite imagine them having reacted by together cooking up this story for you kids' benefit in terms of getting you to back off and mind your own businesses so as to take back full reins and privacy. Plus we've established that they've been brought up to be respectable-pillar-of-the-community types whilst lagging seriously behind schedule when it comes to their emotional education/sophistication, so this means they'll in certain regards be on the one hand behaving like impressive grown-ups and on the other, silly little kids. Plus they're not firing on all cylinders lately. PLUS THEY'RE 'UNATTRACTIVE' TO THE MAX at the mo, like you rightly observe (meaning, they'd have to have linked up with someone *prior* to the sh*t hitting the fan yet behaviour presently and since, still flies in the face of that theory). So what you'd end up with is a mish-mash: the sensible, adult family talk (finally), but one featuring a ridiculously childish, jointly complicit fabrication. (Anyone would have thought it were a press conference than the coming-clean exercise opportunity!)

Additionally, were there any stage-typical competitiveness, resentment and acrimony between them (*which* obviously is still strangely missing even if there hadn't been any infidelity in the picture), you can bet that the parent who *hadn't* found someone else yet, or were even lagging behind in that progress respect, would have been incapable of stopping their egos from giving the game away SOMEHOW under their own radar - e.g. through a shift in facial expression, eye contact/direction or bodily shift/movement/fiddling at that point. In fact, had cheating been involved it would be too unusual for this incredible level of consistent teaming up to begin with. So we can now safely eliminate it from the enquiry.

So I'll believe it when I (or you) see it. So you're still none the wiser as to what (they believe) is at the root of all this, are you.

But what's remarkable to point of sticking out like a sore thumb in all this is their 100% teamwork *and* premature decision to remain good friends to point of flag-planting. SO SORRY to ask if you manage to pick up on what I'm angling at, but... did your parents used to attend quite a lot of very late-ending or all-night parties with a certain same crowd/couple every time, do you know? I'm thinking (cough!) Musical Chairs? But ones that (er) recline? (Sorry to ask.)

Pillars of the community...really good at putting on an act...neither one feeling entitled to feel thus leak out onto your sharp radar any anger and resentment at the other but both upset anyway, can't/daren't tell you kids the truth, tell a cock 'n bull story when 'forced' to.... Seeing what I'm starting to see (potentially) emerging yet?


"that's what my aunt says she does want another person to have to look after her and wipe her bum when she can't! She's lovely but fiecly indeed at the same time and has ended relationships when she feels shes getting close and I think the men are really disappointed. She tell me alsorts"

Interesting fact - apples from certain tree wise and not falling far from it or each other... Intimacy inevitably leads to danger, eh? Does she tell you about your granddad or granny? If so, what and how does she say?


Feel sorry for the Other Person if they're being duped into being tools, but not if it's a case of consensual, tacit deal-striking by way of compatible needs in that respect, in which case, think, Yeah whatever... 'Hair Shirt-on-legs Desperately seeks same or similar' - talk about long and overly convoluted way round?! Some people haven't got the imaginations for just sitting and thinking everything through and working out all the whys and wherefores that way, they have to act it out using other live individuals.

We're not LIKE ants (more's the pity). They're more intelligent en masse, stupid when operating alone (apart from the scouts). Hence - FORUMS! Think about it: everybody but EVERYBODY here is operating individually.

Anyway, I digress...and keep forgetting you're only 18. And then I remember and think, BLOODY NORA, world watch out!!

What are you intending to teach, again? (Sorry, haven't got time at the mo to re-read.)


Tom and the sibs walked and you drove alongside him? Ha-ha, how novel! Don't worry, you'll feel ready to exceed 5mph quite quickly (har-dee-har). ;-)

I suspect Tom is nothing LIKE the youngest of his family, actually. Tell me, have either of you actually *had* a childhood yet? Well, whatever, your sibs, I reckon, are going to be latching more and more onto you two as substitute mum and dad, "the on-lee sensibles in thuh vill-edge". Try not to slide too fully into that role, the pair of you. Try to make a concerted effort to act your ages and be silly the rest of the time, won't you. You don't want you and Tom decades from now, having a massive reaction like your parents are having, do you.


Did you go round and did Holly pick up / open the door? Did you take her anything? (Custard pie? LOL)


Still sore, but not as bad as it's been, "ta fer askin'!" :-). I'm chucking back Solpadine and gargling with hot salt water for all I'm worth! Good job I love salt, ain't it ("Mmmm....saaaalt...").

Keep keeping me posted... as you've gathered, I think my jigsaw pic is starting to show a distinctive picture already.

Parents split up

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I might be being completely thick here, but are you asking if one of my parents could of potentially realised they could be gay? IF not i clearly didn't get what you meant! So please explain again, I dont take offence that easily :) but to rule that out anyway, I don't think so....i now know my mum is seeing a teacher from her old school now, which kind of rings an aralm bell inside my head, as something could of happened there? I'm yet to question my dad, waiting for him to be in a good mood, which could be never! ha.

I've been doing what my aunt suggested and i've started talking to my mum and she's slowly opening up more but still words her answers very carefully, she hiding something i feel like shaking her and telling her to just be honest with me. I keep questioning her on things, like, is putting the house up for sale and splitting up the family is it really worth it? She's goes on about money but no don't believe it. Doesn't she think that its a good idea to be with some else? She goes a bit quiet on me and changes the subject. My main worry with this 'partner' as she now calls him, could move into the new house and i go off to uni and my bro and sister are miserable. Luckily we are just getting time wasters coming to view our house at the moment, the main complaint is that location is too rural. Good. Bugger off!

I can't really think of any issues they could of had in the past. My dads parents thought they could boss them around, and tell my parents how to bring me and the sibs up, more so with my brother and accused my mum of being too soft. Apprently when my mum was pregnant with me they gave her a list of traditional name suggestions, exspecting her to choose one, she choose none of them! So I don't know if she ever felt back up by my dad or if this could be an issue or caused tension but they both died 7 years ago with months in between each other.

Whenever my aunt talks about my grandparents, she talks about them nicely but says she only really had a propper relationship with them she was an adult. They were apprently realy strict (they were always really nice to me) and my aunt considered herself as the black sheep of the family and was really rebellious. More so then my brother! She was expected to go to university but she didn't go to get her o level results or whatever they were back then and left home hitch hicked around Europe with a friend and sent one post card home. By that point my grandparents taking up smoking they were that worried! But i think it does exaplin why my mum and her are both soft as parents.

Ha I wish a was driving along side tom and the sibs in my car that day so i could of had space to drive away and die of embarressment! That's me and my dyslexic brain, I doesn't really bother me :D. I'm doing english, music and biology, i think i want to study english at uni because i love reading. It just when it comes to easy writing my brain thinks faster then i can write and i forget what i mean to put in seconds and it comes out very wrong in sometimes! When it comes to reading/playing music, I play the piano and guitar, its different.

I try to not to mother the sibs and stay as the older sister mode and no i dont really want tom and i to become 'the parents' were still quite new! My sister is needing me less but knows she can talk to me, shes a bit of a free spirit. My brother I have always felt like hes always been missed or never understood, and I do sort of feel some sort responsilty towards him mainly at school when hes got himself into trouble, when we were younger, any school holiday sport days camps, friends birthday parties, where he would just cause havoc! My mum and dad always told me to keep an eye on him and i would watch him anxiously waiting for him to strike, little sod. But my brother would normally never agree to come out with me and my sister, let alone speak to us civilly so something is changing, hes beginning to realise we're not annoying or whatever.
No I don't think tom does act like the youngest, hes more mature compared to some of the idiots that go to my school, which is why i like him because i feel we're on the same wave lenght, however hes there is a cheeky, playful side to him, hes like a bouncy puppy. His parents were apparently very laid back but they did treated and spoke to him like a little mini adult and expected him to act be grown up in certain situations, so maybe he did miss out on being a kid. One of his brother lives with his boyfriend (which they're obviously cool with) and slowly considering marriage and aprently adoption! The other brother refuses to settle down travels around the world come back home, works for a bit, then goes travelling again! So Tom thinks they're pinning their hopes on him settling down after uni and giving them grandchildren. I've only met toms mum once, when we came back from school once, she and two of her friends were sitting in her kitchen making christmas ball balls and listening to Christmas music, in late September...but she seemed very nice not that i got a change to speak to her propperly because tom dragged me away, before any conversation was made, think he was slightly embarrassed?!

Holly - we're back to being best buds again, yey! I did go round to her house with a Orchid plant, she loves them and doesn't like chocolate, weirdo . After a little chat apparently shes been having er....lady troubles, and she's reacting to medication shes been on for years, its making her hornmoans and her go a little crazy. I wasnt not sur how much of an excurse this can be used to her jealousy, so i asked my dad (stupidly) according to him this does happen (he's dying to find out how intermate tom and i are getting up to anything, i play him at hi own game and remain quiet whilst he keeps muttering about contraception, and me making an appt with the nurse, dads!). She said she felt bad for telling me to f off, but was too scared to go bk, and apologise, she could of just told me!
My other friend, Megan, is still being weird, she's the one holly contacted after she told me to f off. Nothing big enough to do something about, shes very suttle. Meg a was newbie at the beginning of sixth form, before it was just me, Holly and our other best friend Alex. Meg befriended Holly and half heartedly Alex and me, even though we were nice and accepted her into our little group! At any given opportunity she will latch onto Hollie and stir things she basically wants hollie all to herself, and but when this does happen me and Alex just separate our selves a bit and hang out together. Its not worth sorting out and its more Alex she has the issue or personality clash with :) . Alex, is my nice but very feisty, metal music lover (yes the type of music where they just scream and make no sense) friend, she's very different and had her own style, which i admire and could never pull off! She has toned it down a little and doesn't look so gothic now but meg doesnt get and teases Alex for being different, but Alex shoots her down again! I dont think Alex or i will still be friends with megan after school. I'm just never sure if her ad holly have a good b*tch about us when they're alone or if I should be weary of her pulling my best bud away from me/us?

Lily x

Parents split up

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Not ignoring you, Lily, just literally haven't got time to post at the mo! Am aware you're waiting, though. Be with you just as soon as I humanly can! *Hopefully* tomorrow. Bear with...?

Parents split up

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Sure :)

Parents split up

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Going to have to be fairly quick - got To Do lists coming out of my ears!

Again, I *don't* believe their 'we've both found someone in precise unison', but if true then there is only one thing that fits the picture so far, which would be ....couple swap.

It happens. In FACT, it happened to a distant aunt and uncle of mine, they literally wife-swapped (or husband-swapped, if you prefer?).

But, now, with you telling me your mum's done a 'Friends Reunited' job? "Big Fat Oh!", would be my response. However, it needn't be a case of reunited and re-snogged, it could just be that the old friend has provided a catalyst to your mum unpacking and re-watching old cine footage (in her head) of her past, meaning, things she'd buried thereby disinterring themselves and biting her so hard on the bum (so to speak) that they're now confusing and upsetting her all over again as has affected her relations with your father. But that's conjecture...albeit, based on what frequently can happen in that situation *where* someone had tried to move on from an upsetting era without having come to terms with it and 'forgiven' it first...which ties up nicely with your aunt's 'intimacy leads only to danger' attitude, I think (do you agree?). Well, *someone* with big b*lls is bound to bump into your aunt some day soon, club her over the head, sling her over his shoulder and snog her into silence any time she tries to wriggle her way out of it, that's Nature's most primitive, clingy dictat which there is zero getting away from (basically because Conscious We are not even remotely in control of whether and when, meaning, we can sit there going 'Bleuch, NO WAY!' ten times a day, but it makes no odds.

"the main complaint is that location is too rural. Good. Bugger off!"

(LOL - 'Geert ORF mey lairnd, you peasants!".)

Don't worry, it's not over until the fat lady sings (as they say). I haven't seen a fat lady anywhere yet, let alone singing - have you? But if the 'worst' came to the worst, I doubt your siblings would have any reason to be miserable. In fact, they might well eventually find it really convenient and cushy, having an extra home that they can petulantly flounce off too any time they and one of your parents have a typical son/daughter-parent clash.

I'm divorced, and my son, surprisingly rapidly, actually, grew to prefer having two sets of everything, including *but not only* support, e.g. two sets of Xmas and birthday pressies and pocket-money, etc., twice as many free chauffeurs to drop and collect from parties, ...on and on go the perks of having 'four' primary supporters/suppliers instead of just the two (and let's not forget your sibs are both approaching the stages where those sorts of things will be their main concerns). Every cloud has a silver lining - no exceptions - so it's about identifying them, weighing them up in ones mind against what's been supposedly lost, and realising that it's only the PARENTS who 'lose' anything (including half of their total wealth as now separate individuals), NOT the kids. And even that's only for a while. But because parents are so distraught and upset during a split-up, they manage to communicate that state of mind to the kids who then themselves panic and believe it's "the END OF THE WOOORLD" (same as where parents have always shown fear of spiders, the kids tend to grow up with the same hang-up). No, it isn't. It ends up Same But Different at worst, and Much Better at best. There's nothing to fear, here, and your sibs need to appreciate that and just go with the flow, knowing they'll be anywhere between okay or much better off, whatever happens..and so will your parents, just later along that line than them.

But that's just the 'worst case' scenario, anyway. You haven't got there yet and there's nothing yet to suggest you will because EVEN IF they sell the house, like you said - they were going to anyway, regardless, so that bit's got too little to do with what's going down with your folks. Frankly, one could sell ones KNICKERS and it STILL wouldn't have an influence. Because, like marriage, divorce happens *in the head* and *only* in the head, the rest merely being stuff in the environment following suit like a herd of sheep. And their heads CLEARLY - CRYSTAL! - aren't there yet (and, I repeat, are going in the precisely wrong direction, anyway; as far as I can tell, they're just doing the 'let's put it on the edge of the cliff and see how strong its hands and arms are when it comes to pulling itself back up' dance).

PS: I don't think it's because it's too rural, that has to be a polite excuse for something else. The viewers knew where it was located the minute they got the sales particulars and rang the agent to arrange a viewing, n'est pas. Location, Location, LOCATION, is the primary key to selling. Everything else can be altered or improved on, think about it.

PPS: You write WELL, *and* sound way ahead of your years. So I would have said your personal, pet study focus (i.e in your own time) should go on psychology, like Tom. You're obviously drawn to it (hence a practitioner-to-be in the form of Tom) and seem to get it without any effort whatsoever so - food for thought? Try starting with lay books like 'The Naked Ape' by Desmond Morris and make your way from there, including the rest in his series ('Man Watching' and 'Mind Watching') until you can grasp the more specialist, academic stuff. I'd recommend that to anyone, actually, because if you think about it, how on earth are humans supposed to understand how they themselves and other people tick, without ever having read a single User Manual? (Banana shoved in the VCR slot, anyone?) Trust me, it makes life *far* simpler, particularly if you're the type who has a scientific brain and therefore doesn't always trust their own instincts or can't 'translate' them that clearly enough to read them; you always have the on-paper knowledge as back-up (or sidekick).

PPPS: Me too (piano)! Chopin, Einaudi and Joplin are my all-time fave composers (couldn't get my head around a guitar...probably should have used my hands instead, har-har). Yours?

But anyway, if your mum's sister was the black sheep then mum was probably the obedient, obsequious one. Late Onset Rebellion, anyone? a part of her past life that she was robbed of? Could be. But equally could be the same for your dad, by the sounds.

Whichever, they obviously do both have unsifted, unsorted issues stemming from their childhoods and how they were raised. Mid Life Crisis a deux (one partner set off - possibly early, possibly not - by the other). It's the (rarely) especially self-intimate, self-knowledgeable, independent- and wilful-minded person that can escape that typical middle-aged 'everything coming to a head/the rules aren't working' business, basically because they refuse moreover to be blindly spoonfed and prefer to make their own minds up (unless what's on the spoon is instantly identifiable and understandable, of course). To be human is to have baggage, berbom. The differences, as ever, lay only in the *degrees*. So experiencing marital trouble and this kind of impasse is actually perfectly normal and NOT always something that clears the entire ship's deck, including deck itself; sometimes it can vastly improve matters. So just watch that space (without really letting it affect you emotionally. Pretend you're the scientist and they the lab rats. It helps, trust me.)

Brother's supposed to be a little sod. It comes with the job title. ;-) He's beginning to realise he needs you *and* that you actually have far more in common than he thought. And here is one of the very Lemonades you can make out of this giant, seeming Lemon: it can provide the perfect catalyst to you and your siblings ending up so damn solid that in later life you're all three of you adults the very best of friends, confidantes, supporters and moral supporters, basically mutual, takesie-turnsie parent figures for when your folks are gone. PRICELESS.

Tell Tom I said - hopes schmopes. It's HIS life and as long as he's capable of finding a place and a workload for himself in the world that makes HIM happy then that is all the payback parents can ask or *should* ask: a happy, fairly settled, confident/brave child who isn't frightened of the normal life-path hurdles both internal and external and hence faces and copes with them until he's back to his default position of moreover perfectly contented. As you can probably now appreciate, there IS no pleasing parents by trying to make them happy, it backfires. The most he can do to ensure he's happy yet them not feeling actually affronted or rejected, is find a nice balance. That's why you two should watch your parents' "dance" closely because it gives you the opportunity to learn from their mistakes thus never end up having to make your own (nor clean up the resultant mess). You'd be surprised, Lily, how many people are too stubborn and incapable of learning from second- or third-hand examples and just replicate the same ol' same ol' errors and wrong moves in the wrong direction. Me, I think it's an especially savvy person who lets other people (mostly) play guinneapig in that regard. Minimal mistakes, corrections and backtracks on your part, faster and smoother progress, better timeline that leaves room for only whatever *should* be in one's intray at that point, rather than a truckload of old sheets on top - voila! If Tom is capable of pleasing himself first and foremost - and in a way that takes other people with him as winners and/or doesn't impede or harm anyone else in the process - then, his parents will not have a complaining or reprimanding leg to stand on, come the result (or each sub-result). And if his being happy doesn't automatically render THEM happy, there's frankly summat wrong with which case, who would want to dance to the tunes of idiots or expect to end up ticketyboo? Or as the airlines tell you: place your own oxygen mask on *before* trying to help others on with theirs. SIMPLES! If you're okay, then other people who love you and rely on and are affectable by your welfare will be okay too.

PS: The way you describe Tom reminds me exactly of Mr Soulmate. :-)

Holly: Yeah. I'm with you on the excuse front. Sure, hormones can be like alcohol but they don't "MAKE" you anything, they just kid you into feeling free to expose the parts (i.e. your inner chimp) you'd normally prefer to keep to yourself. Still, at least she admitted she'd been silly, that's the main thing. (Bit scared of you (she means intimidated) - noted, not surprised at all for one so scarily intelligent, articulate and switched-on as you. You're probably a lot to measure up to, without even realising it.)

Agree with dad completely that you should be prepared like a good Girl Guide. Preparation is key to anything going smoothly and happily.

"At any given opportunity she will latch onto Hollie and stir things she basically wants hollie all to herself, "

That's what I'm talking about: natural born psychologist!

I doubt very much Megan can compete with you, certainly going by Holly's feet, so no point in even entertaining that worry. After all, Holly's just had *THE* golden opportunity to ditch you for Meg and Meg's just had the same regarding getting her permanently to herself. *Fail*. But Meg obviously doesn't feel like she has a secure, well defined 'job title' in that pack so is scared of being pushed out/left behind and on her tod, so the kind and good Karma-earning thing to do would be to create or identify one for her (that'll shut 'er up with a smile on her mush). If she has a distinct place and role in the pack, she won't try to steal anyone else's. Again - Simples! And it can be any number of things: the fashion expert, the good listener, the very practical one, the bash organiser...whatever package of genuine, useful qualities. Just a meaty enough role that you and Holly show you appreciate and rely on, MEANING, you both need her long-term, MEANING, she's neither surplus to requirements nor dispensable, meaning, SAFE. Put yours and Holly's heads together on that score.

Bitching aka resentfully whinging, behind your back: probably, on occasion. But that can just be a case of letting off steam SO THAT you don't go letting it off in the face of the person concerned because you still like them and want to keep their friendship and DON'T want to hurt them in the process of having a damn good mind-puke. (- So not *that* much behind-your-back venting, then?) Know what I say whenever I leave a table or room? "Do talk about me while I'm gone, won't you? In fact, I positively insist on it and shall be asking questions later!" Know what happens in their heads? 'You don't tell ME what to do!' (Aim, fire, bullseye!) But as Oscar Wilde said, 'T'is better to be looked over than overlooked' (just ask Meg ;-)).

(Fairly quick, s/he said... like, the Pope is fairly Catholic.)

Anyway, I'm glad you're all coping and doing okay, that's the important thing: not getting infected and passing on the infection to those around you or, worse, your pending kids. :-)

Parents split up

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Hi Soulmate,

Definite food for thought! I'm beginning to think I've chosen the wrong a levels and maybe instead of music I should of done psychology. My dad did tell me to rethink it at the time, oops! I do find it really interesting. Tom has given me the chimp paradox - the inner mind management and really enjoying it, more of a self help book for stress and anxiety, which I do suffer with too. Will look up those other books you mentioned as well.

Couple swap? I never considered that or knew it actually happened but I can see how it could make sense, in a weird way. Do couples actually swap partners and don't necessarily get divorced unless they want to get married?

I can see the perks, I already got two lots of monthly allowances :). With my mum, my brother has some how managed to increase his quite a lot because he's promised to work harder at school, crafty!
At my dads I don't have my own room, I have to share a room with my sister, so I miss my privacy on a Saturday night but Sophia and I decided to turn it into chick flick movie night/sister time - every cloud does have a silver lining .

My dad got a puppy yesterday! Huge perm always wanted a dog. It was a surprise for us , we got to pick him, we've called him Hunter, not my choice but he's still small, fluffy and cute! Make gong to his more fun.

I just don't know if all parents are as secretive like mine? Or if are most parents just more honest and say why straight off no matter what the reason they just don't want to stress there kids put where mine have chooses to do that. Thanks mum and dad!

I do think it's convenient my mum left her old job to go to a new school, leaving behind a 'friend' who she now want to start seeing. Not just because she's want to teach older kids, my brother agrees with me. I know who he is now, my brother actually knew more about him than I did and found him on Facebook and he found a picture of them, my mum and him, which is why he showed me, it was taken this year. Wouldn't say it was a cosy Pic they are just standing side by side. My brother was really worried but there isn't much that can be done. I had to persuade him not to write a rude message! God that would be bad, I did explain to him what you explained to me about not giving these other people a hard time, and if anything to feel sorry for them, I think he listened.
I'm pleased I don't have Facebook, otherwise I think I'd be winding my self up like my brother is.

I've also found out my brother has a little love interest !Holly's step sister, who for months followed him around at school and he used to bat her away pretending to be uninterested but she stuck with it ignored his insults and she's turn into his first gf. He claims there friend, Holly's sister claims there gf and bf, lol, which is why he's seems more relaxed! I had to leave his room the other night because they wanted to face time each other, sweet! They're kind of suited both don't have many friends, both get a little bullied ( Holly's step mum is another controlling person) And both too clever and both very good at art. So they have things in common.

I also saw my dads 'friend' on Saturday too, didn't actually meet her in person she just dropped something round and then went again so he is actually listening to me when I told him I wasn't ready to meet her yet. But he did point out to me he doesn't stop me from seeing Tom so maybe, I do need to be a little fairer? Apart from the fact it's under different circumstances !

Lol, It is very much 'get off my land' from my point of view and there is a reason why I'm attached to my family home and why I don't feel my parents do actually want to sell it, apart from. More so my dad as he always said it would be a home for life or until my mum and him were too old to. He brought the house (or the shell of it) at auction and he renovated it completely with builders. We used to live in London till I was about 4 and the parents wanted to move out to the countryside and he wanted project! And I vaguely remember bits being done, and swing it change, which why it feels sentimental.

I do like those composers but I'm more of a guitar person, my piano gets a bit neglected! A couple of months ago one of toms friend jamie, managed to convinced me to do an open mic night at a pub most Fridays evenings, we got our own time slot. I litterally just back him up on guitar and maybe if I'm feeling brave do some harmonising, but J does all the signing and take it far more seriously then I do, I do get a buzz from doing it though despite being really nervous before hand! More so if tom is there watching! This week we got asked to play at a wedding, which went to Jamie's head a bit and he was like 'we should totally X factor next year' or 'start up on YouTube?'!

I hope some comes along and sweeps, my auntie off her feet ! Yes my mum was the good one, always tried to please my grandparents and she promised herself never to be as strict as them, which is probably why she's gone too soft! And my aunt spoils her two sons. My auntie is coming to stay next weekend 'watch this space' is all I can say.

Ah no I hope Holly's not scared of me, she's the louder more confident one/self confident one out of the two of us. I talk a lot on here but I'm quite shy but weirdly I push my self to do confident things once in a while, like open night mic with Jamie. Although tom admits he finds her annoying and doesn't see the attraction most guys do :-/.
Megan has slowly stored stirring now after seeing she wasn't getting anywhere.

I did pass your message onto tom at first he thought it was weird I'm writing everything on a forum about my parents (why not?) but he then saw what being said and he likes what you said about his parents and agrees :). He wants to know if you're a psychologist? I'm also meeting his parents properly next Sunday we're going to his brother house on Sunday, nervous! But wow I'm falling for him pretty hard! Speak soon,
Lily x

Parents split up

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First, re your earlier query on Jackdor's thread:

(Um....How to succinctly sum up what is a complex subject...)

Narcissistic Personality Disorder is deemed a sociopathy (nurtured in during childhood rearing, yet still aware of right -v- wrong) rather than psychopathy (born with, devoid of sense of right or wrong, hence deemed actually insane thereby not responsible for own actions).

All humans naturally possess narcissistic tendencies, always have (men especially...think lack of empathy compared to women). It's only when a quality is too little or too much, whereby it affects behaviour and proceedings, that it leaves the Normal domain into that of mental illness - sociopathy - specifically, personality disorder (on-the-cusp to mild, all the way to severe...think conman after money/power and/or cementing incoming-only love (aka Narcisisstic Supply) all the way to despotic leader, e.g., Kim Jong Un.

Unfortunately, FB ("fakebook" or "lovemebook" as I call it) and other social media, including mainstream, do nowadays encourage out vanity, self-obsession and self-serving selfishness to a degree significant enough to spill over into everyday life, yes. Industry and public awareness, however, is, as ever, the key (or antidote).

Some know they are, some don't ('a sufferer may be brought to see an expert because of the suffering they are producing in those around them, or they may themselves come to realize how empty their lives are and how depressed they are really feeling, despite all their success'). But imagine a life wherein you can't appreciate and enjoy healthy love in either direction for its own sake, and what you'd have left in terms of from where to derive pleasure in life (especially as life *is* people) thus priorities/goals? Answer: they become nothing but tools and puppets, whilst social climbing, fame, money and material possessions - reasons to self-admire (to counteract the deeper-laying suspicion that they're sh*t/unlovable), basically, become the main focus (most successful business people are narcissistic). Full-on Narcissists can end up destroying their own and other people's lives...basically stunted as children, now going around as kids/teens in 'grown-up suits', trying, trying, trying to convince themselves through other people that they're *not* sh*t, in fact, far from it. But deep down they never believe you anyway, hence once is never enough and it's an ongoing effort requiring constant/replenished Supply.

If you have one in your life, setting very clear rules and boundaries and refusing to veer from them is imperative. They can't control themselves so your only choice is to control yourself (takers need thus seek out givers, think about it). If you can't do that then the up-side is, these people do tend to make very good mental gym equipment on-legs, because if you can deal with a Narcissist and come out relatively unscathed, you can then deal with *anyone*, will end up 'un-dupe-able'. Me, I both feel very sorry for them and repulsed by them, but, thankfully, they've never yet managed to get one over on me and tend to quickly sense or realise that and give me a wide berth.

If it's not too late to switch subjects - I agree. Or take it afterwards or study it in your own time...albeit, Narcissism, strictly speaking, comes under psychiatry (one of the industry descriptives being, 'Never love something [some THING, note] that can't love you back'), mainly because psychotherapeutic success relies wholly on admitting and speaking [wait for it]... THE TRUTH, something they avoid because it goes against their lifelong (psychologically survivalist) campaign to prove the 'original evidence' wrong. So they can only be treated/managed, not cured...unless a therapist has about 10+ concentrated years to spare and loves banging their head against a brick wall. However, like any problems, a lot of conditions were once said to be incurable, were they not (until they became an actual or too much of a problem, of course) so - watch that space...

Parents split up

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"Couple swap? I never considered that or knew it actually happened but I can see how it could make sense, in a weird way. Do couples actually swap partners and don't necessarily get divorced unless they want to get married?"

Yup. It's either a result of or a form of Swinging. But it still doesn't change what, conversely, the behavioural package suits and indicates plus the premature/unavailable stage they're at, plus-plus-plus...

"I can see the perks, I already got two lots of monthly allowances Smiling. With my mum, my brother has some how managed to increase his quite a lot because he's promised to work harder at school, crafty!"

Crafty or he just needs far greater incentive than you and your sis.?

"At my dads I don't have my own room, I have to share a room with my sister, so I miss my privacy on a Saturday night but Sophia and I decided to turn it into chick flick movie night/sister time - every cloud does have a silver lining ."

Excellent - very resourceful (and very bonding)! Signs of survivors ('Adapt or perish, now as ever, is nature's inexorable imperative' - H. G. Welles...who obviously read Darwin's 'Origin Of Species'). I hope it includes lots of chocolate, etc? PS: You can get room dividers/screens quite cheaply online... handy for needing to strip off without having to use the bathroom. Ikea even do one that doubles as a floor lamp. PPS: Ensure brother doesn't end up feeling marginalised, though, won't you? Remember he doesn't have a same-sex sib, nor anyone to whisper with before lights-out, which already will make him feel a bit left out and on his own. And remember that acting-out is just a form of (sometimes rightful) attention-seeking.

"My dad got a puppy yesterday! Huge perm always wanted a dog. It was a surprise for us , we got to pick him, we've called him Hunter, not my choice but he's still small, fluffy and cute! Make gong to his more fun."

Oh. Great for you and sibs, but...The parental competing, albeit (typically) subtle, has begun, look. Or it could be the typical estranged dad insecurity made manifest in terms of prevention? Or bit of both (usually is).

"I just don't know if all parents are as secretive like mine? Or if are most parents just more honest and say why straight off no matter what the reason they just don't want to stress there kids put where mine have chooses to do that. Thanks mum and dad!"

Some deal with not wanting to stress their kids by telling them as little as possible (intention is what counts, despite methodology isn't always ideal). But as you saw, neither Susiedqq nor I deemed their method sensible, fair or exactly healthy.

"I do think it's convenient my mum left her old job to go to a new school, leaving behind a 'friend' who she now want to start seeing. Not just because she's want to teach older kids, my brother agrees with me. I know who he is now, my brother actually knew more about him than I did and found him on Facebook and he found a picture of them, my mum and him, which is why he showed me, it was taken this year. Wouldn't say it was a cosy Pic they are just standing side by side. My brother was really worried but there isn't much that can be done. I had to persuade him not to write a rude message! God that would be bad, I did explain to him what you explained to me about not giving these other people a hard time, and if anything to feel sorry for them, I think he listened."

Or it could be her leaving is what spurred the chap on, finally, to reveal his feelings? *Or* he could just be a very supportive platonic friend. But if not, he is coming across as very predatory, thanks to his timing, because - look at it this way: if as a person you're emotionally healthy and ticketyboo and thereby ripe and ready for a relationship (which your mother patently isn't) then why on earth would you basically choose as your cruising ground a HOSPITAL?! Why would you want someone who wasn't remotely over someone else? Who wants damaged goods, even temporarily so? Answer: someone who's in the same hospital for the same problem (Like Attracts Like) *or* a predator (Opposites Attract) whom opportunistically likes 'em needy and vulnerable (easy to manipulate *or* faster to fall in-love via transference of affections). So that'll be the sense brother's had but can't articulate, save for wanting to take the action that embodies those feelings.

(Now tell me what's on your dad's profile and we have at least good indication in terms of finding our answer about who's the catalyst or problematic element here.)

"I'm pleased I don't have Facebook, otherwise I think I'd be winding my self up like my brother is."

Tell him it's becoming an informal hospital recreation room, that transmission of psychological ailments/diseases happens via empathy, that empathy automatically activates during interpersonal interaction (unless one goes in prepared or is highly independent-minded to begin with) - hence why psychotherapists strictly limit contact ("drrrinnng", time's up!, see you next week"), so he's leaving himself open to infection, depending on how often and for how long he 'visits', same as if he were to stand in a room full of cold sufferers, all sneezing profusely. That he's getting wound up is proof he's [1] believing what are mere veneers and [2] starting to be infected. (That ought to do it.)

"I've also found out my brother has a little love interest !Holly's step sister, who for months followed him around at school and he used to bat her away pretending to be uninterested but she stuck with it ignored his insults and she's turn into his first gf. He claims there friend, Holly's sister claims there gf and bf, lol, which is why he's seems more relaxed! I had to leave his room the other night because they wanted to face time each other, sweet! They're kind of suited both don't have many friends, both get a little bullied ( Holly's step mum is another controlling person) And both too clever and both very good at art. So they have things in common."

"Another" controlling person? Why - who's the first?

"I also saw my dads 'friend' on Saturday too, didn't actually meet her in person she just dropped something round and then went again so he is actually listening to me when I told him I wasn't ready to meet her yet. But he did point out to me he doesn't stop me from seeing Tom so maybe, I do need to be a little fairer? Apart from the fact it's under different circumstances !"

Your final sentance provides the difference that makes ALL the difference. Your dad knows it. But he's not firing on all mental-emotional cylinders at the mo, is he, he's in needful mode. Anyway, she could be platonic (and/or just a competing tool) as well, you can't say yet.

"Lol, It is very much 'get off my land' from my point of view and there is a reason why I'm attached to my family home and why I don't feel my parents do actually want to sell it, apart from. More so my dad as he always said it would be a home for life or until my mum and him were too old to. He brought the house (or the shell of it) at auction and he renovated it completely with builders. We used to live in London till I was about 4 and the parents wanted to move out to the countryside and he wanted project! And I vaguely remember bits being done, and swing it change, which why it feels sentimental."

Your dad chose wisely. Maybe he foresaw a hiccup like this without realising it consciously at the time or since?

"I do like those composers but I'm more of a guitar person, my piano gets a bit neglected! A couple of months ago one of toms friend jamie, managed to convinced me to do an open mic night at a pub most Fridays evenings, we got our own time slot. I litterally just back him up on guitar and maybe if I'm feeling brave do some harmonising, but J does all the signing and take it far more seriously then I do, I do get a buzz from doing it though despite being really nervous before hand! More so if tom is there watching! This week we got asked to play at a wedding, which went to Jamie's head a bit and he was like 'we should totally X factor next year' or 'start up on YouTube?'!"

I've done open mic and the London stand-up (comedy) circuit a handful of times as well so I know how it goes, but, I'm with you on that sentiment: fame - YUCK, can't think of anything worse or more inconvenient. However, ANYTHING is alright as long as you stay in control of it, rather than the other way around (that's the key).

"I hope some comes along and sweeps, my auntie off her feet ! Yes my mum was the good one, always tried to please my grandparents and she promised herself never to be as strict as them, which is probably why she's gone too soft! And my aunt spoils her two sons. My auntie is coming to stay next weekend 'watch this space' is all I can say."

Any extreme is unhealthy. We conceptualise extremes as two separate, far ends of a stick, but in actual fact it's a snipped circle. Picture it and you'll see how (pre-snip) over-strict sits *right beside* under-strict, meaning, in this context, ones endeavour to be under-strict can end badly and produce a child that vows to be or do [wait for it] the precise opposite. The key to life is being aware of the danger of this human-reactive 'pendulum-ing' and finding out where Balanced is - for you as an individual in tandem with your environment. E.g., others might think you eat too much salt but if your body is the type that NEEDS a lot of salt, your balanced intake is another person's over- or under-kill. So self-intimacy and -knowledge is the master key.

"Ah no I hope Holly's not scared of me, she's the louder more confident one/self confident one out of the two of us. I talk a lot on here but I'm quite shy but weirdly I push my self to do confident things once in a while, like open night mic with Jamie. Although tom admits he finds her annoying and doesn't see the attraction most guys do :-/."

Sometimes (another key word in life), still waters run deeper. Plus actions trump *any* amount of words/broadcasting. I meant intimidated only, though, not scared. By your intelligence and refusal to pander to anything but the truth, including smokescreens and distractions.

"Megan has slowly stored stirring now after seeing she wasn't getting anywhere."

Then, THIS time, you and Holly know what to do, quick sharpish (YOU two choose her route to being invaluable and indispensible and then swiftly reward her to show her that that one actually works. Basically anything she can do/provide that you two can't, yet need, and of which she's proud or could become proud of. Just don't give her anything 'valuable' until she's proven herself on that score.)

"I did pass your message onto tom at first he thought it was weird I'm writing everything on a forum about my parents (why not?) but he then saw what being said and he likes what you said about his parents and agrees Smiling. He wants to know if you're a psychologist? I'm also meeting his parents properly next Sunday we're going to his brother house on Sunday, nervous! But wow I'm falling for him pretty hard! Speak soon,"

Can't comment, sorry. For one thing, as 'resident' here, I'm a sitting duck where concerns gangs collecting dribs and drabs of information until clear, useable picture(s) emerge. Anyway - never mind all that - MEETING THE PARENTS! :-) Do *not* waste your time being nervous because, trust me, they'll be far (FAR!) more nervous than you about whether you'll like and approve of them! Just be your best self, that's all you need to do to win them over; it worked with their mini-me, so....

That's another little realised key in life: while person A is sat worrying about what person B thinks of them, person B is doing the exact same thing - possibly to an even greater degree (like this example) and barely even considering their own impression and opinion of A. Plus, it's in their interests to like you, think about it. Plus, again, they already do (because the chip off what is their block, does), they just haven't had concrete evidence yet, that's all. Or as Buble puts it, 'I just haven't met you yet'.

PS: In line with prevention and out of respect to his knee-jerk reaction - make sure Tom knows I'm ancient (well, compared to you, anyway) and excessively loved-up, nay, *obsessed* - mutually - with the very wonderful Mr Soulmate, i.e. zero threat whatsoever.


And now I'm interested to know, why the sudden keen interest in Narcissism or narcissistic traits plus Jackdor's thread? Who is it, do you suspect?

Parents split up

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I like learning knew things and liked their is a reason to why her in-laws were being so mean and odd! And it got me interested. I knew nothing about narcissist people, I kind of thought maybe my parents (more my dad, having traits) because they have been so self indulgent and miserable for ages now and haven't seemed to come out of that but then after reading more and what you put above, I think they're more upset/ not thinking straight. My mind then went on to Holly's step mum, only because Holly's been complaining about her recently and I've been trying to think how to help her or what to say when she does.

Unless I want to catch up on while years work, which I don't,I have to look at another way of studying psychology . Can't quite see my self telling my dad I should of listened to him.

Yes my brother probably does need more encouragement and attention from my parents and more of an incentive to behave more! Attention seeking is his fav thing to do. But he messed up and got him self in loads trouble yesterday by writing a message on fb to my mums 'friends'. I was annoyed he didn't listen to me but had a feeling I hadn't got through to him and I should of checked with him. I don't know what he's put, clearly something to make my mum really angry with him! She had such a go at him for it and she rarely raises her voice or carry out a punishment. She took away his laptop and mobile, went down so well, not! But as I was listening to them argue, he was making more sense then she was in some ways it's was like he was almost begging her to just be honest with him/us. He's sulking big time at the moment so I'm going to pick my ' hot chocolate before bed' moment (works so well, I've done it a few times now and he's been more then happy to talk, maybe I should pass this advice into my parents) and talk to him about it, not gonna confront him, when my mum has already told him off.

Ok, I didn't see that my dad getting a puppy was potentially competition. Was too excited at the time. I think it could be intentional and trying to win us over a bit.

My dads profile, not too sure?

'Chick Flick Night' definitely involves chocolate and popcorn :) almost pointless otherwise! I will try to get my bro involved this week too. I think he thinks me and my sis are a little team. From past experiences my sibs have always argued for ages about what film to watch, then fight over the tv controls, both trying to get in control and normally it ends with my sister throwing a strop and storm off to her bedroom because she didn't get the film she wanted to watch! she then hates it if my brother and I decide to watch the film. Anything that involves us doing something with our brother and can make into such a little madam. Typical Baby of the family act? But my brother can be equally argumentative and can wind her up in seconds! Bl**dy nightmare but I think I will and take control this time pick a film and we take it in turns from then on.

Will deffinately look into room dividers. My sister really doesn't care about stripping off, but I do! And it's a good excuse to go to IKEA. Tom has never been?! He grew up in Cornwall and I don't think they have on down there.

Meeting the parents it's not just his parents, it's them and two brothers, the travelling brother is now going to be around and other brothers partner. This is at the oldest brothers house, tom doing the cooking so I have talk. He knows how to throw me in at the deep end! I have met his mum and I know she's at least far from scary but his dad works away all week so I haven't had a chance to even see him. But will try to loose the nerves by Sunday though! Breath.

Tom - we had a little bit of a disagreement today...maybe even call it an arguement! Today, mon and on Fri his ex gf has been starting to hang round him, when I thought she got off our case. She didn't take their break up well and definitely didnt take us getting together well either! all a very long boring story. When we first got together I was worried about upsetting her, as she can be aggressive, which is why we are taking thing slow, i was also a bit worried about him rebounding but tom was miserable with her and I think he has proven that's not the case. Anyways after walking into the common room today and seeing her sitting next to him giggling away at whatever he was saying to her I confronted him a little on it trying to show I wasn't too happy. He got annoyed and told me to 'please not get all Clingy with him because that's what she (his ex) did and I didn't even know what was being said' And maybe so, but I know what she's like! Why even engage with her? After few more angry words from both, he then left without giving me any reassurance and went to play football with us mates! Grrr. Of course meg and holly weren't sitting far away from us and we're clearly enjoying ever minute of our discussion so I left them to it. Alex seems to think it's because I confronted him when he was probably trying to be nice and just escape from her each time. I think we're ok because he found me after school and said sorry and gave me a hug and said he's call me after he finished work. Think it still needs to be talked about though, not totally excited about his call later, like I normally would be m, it's put me in a weird mood! Lily x

Parents split up

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1. That's what I'm talking about, Lily! You're completely correct - people in trauma or crisis can, just for a while, emulate the thinking and behaviour of a personality disordered. The difference always is, though, that those who are only *temporarily* in that wheelchair tend inevitably at some point to get up out of it and walking straight and sturdily again. So time tells on that score where diagnosis in the thick of things might fail.

2. Your mum and dad are in a huge transition period. Plus your dad, being a male, would have had more narcissistic traits to begin with, regardless. But no way would an actual narcissist recommend you choose a career path that would make you happy as well as give you greater independence. They don't act in other people's interests, including their own kids', they act in theirs and theirs alone and if you happen to benefit? - it was purely a lucky, unforeseeable byproduct that the Narc hadn't bargained on. And nor does a Narc mother repeatedly ask, 'Everything alright?', etc., like you described 'up there', (which basically means, TALK to me, NEED me, let me HELP if there's anything, as your mum I'm feeling redundant).

3. Holly and her mum are also in transition, going through the stretch or snap the umbilicus stage that happens in the run up to the chick leaving the nest. (Think about if, beforehand, the umbilicus *isn't* sufficiently stretched: the chick flies off until.....PER-CHOO!, the 'elastic' just ricochets them back home again: mission fail.) But if you suspect it's more than that, you could explain to Holly that a wounded animal is naturally given to wail, moan and lash out (inadvertently kicking the cat) or - the opposite - slink off to the bottom of the garden to hide for a while behind the garden shed (self-quarantining, i.e. are the kicked cat themselves). Whichever, she needs to try not to take it personally or as any reflection on her or her intrinsic relationship with her mum.

It does now explain nicely why Holly's lately feeling so incredibly insecure and 'place-less', though, doesn't it. Case solved.

4. Why can't you see yourself telling dad he was right/you should have listened? Explicas, por favor?

5. "But he messed up and got him self in loads trouble yesterday by writing a message on fb to my mums 'friends'."

Ohhhh, sh*t.

"I was annoyed he didn't listen to me but had a feeling I hadn't got through to him and I should of checked with him."

(6.) Same for your dad in regards to you and his careers lecture, eh. ;-) What a shame neither of you are Mary Poppins - "Utterly perfect in every possibly way [save for the nightly glass of rrrrrum punch]" LOL. You're probably scratching your head, going, Mary WHAT?! (go Google), but my point is - you *can't* be perfect, either of you. If you're perfect, you've stopped growing and developing. And things that no longer grow or develop are WHAT NOW? Yup - DEAD ALREADY.

7. Re passing on the hot choc tip: maybe you should? Beats arguing, that's for sure. Not that arguments aren't highly useful and necessary, of course. Just depends on how the people concerned handle it and whether their deep-down intention is to repair whatever's amiss.

(8. All these people around you going to pieces and making messes, look. Yet here's you (and Tom), coping marvellously. And that, by the way, does allow for nights when you sob frustratedly or despairingly into your pillow (which is excellent good welfare maintenance). As my fave quote by Mary Pickford agrees, 'This thing we call failure is not the falling down but the STAYING down'.)

9. Why aren't you too sure about your dad's profile? Otro vez - explicas?

10. "I think he thinks me and my sis are a little team."

You've got it. And don't worry about what USED to happen between him and little blister. That was then, this is now. Events change - feelings change - attitudes change - behaviour changes. This time they might LIKE Green Eggs & Ham, Sam-I-Am. :-) (Did you ever read Dr Seuss's "Cat In The Hat" series of rhyming books, by the way, or is this another head-scratcher? If it is - read them now, they're basically psychology and emotional welfare health tips for kids, illustratively nutshelled beautifully in 5 to 10 minutes flat .... whether 'on a train or in the rain, with a fox, in a box'. :-))

I've got THEEEEE BEST film you could all three of you watch while in this current climate: Pixar's "Inside Out". Forget the fact it's visually beautiful or fascinating and hilarious and sad (and back again) in equal measure - what's more is, it'll make all your brains go click-click-clickety-click-PING!-EXHALE-chill. ...Pubescent teenager that's pushed into own crisis (having to suddenly grow up by a massive chunk) by her parents' crisis/transition, all the workers and departments of every level of her psyche (the backroom boys/gals, as I call it) getting put under pressure like never before, having to adjust, play catch-up or prevent and pre-empt quick-sharpish to-suit. Won't say any more than that or I'll spoil it. But please just trust me and do it - you'll see. :-) Call it your homework, since I seem to have slipped into the role of life-coach. Accordingly, I'll be asking questions about it later (ha-ha, but seriously).

11. (As memory serves (albeit, granted, I was only 8 when I holiday-ed there), they have cheese and Parma Violets (and lots of steep hills) in Cornwall and tha's aboud it, moy luvlee, arrr. (Does Tom have a Cornish accent?))

Maybe Tom knows something you don't? But you could always at any point say, 'Best go check on Tom, see if he needs a sous chef'. Doubt you'll need it, though. And you're allowed to be nervous. Frankly, the parents would find it endearing, AS WELL AS a very encouraging sign re your depth of feelings for Tom. Basically, just be your natural, nervous self...give them the floor in that respect and see how they handle it/you, it'll be a bloody good litmus-dipping exercise. But, look, you have a clue already: Tom wants you to meet them and they you. He wouldn't want to do that if they were issue-ridden or socially inept idiots, would he.

Your first argument, eh? Excellent. PS: Meeting the family - taking things slow, my bottom! And nor is his testing how p*ssed-off you'd be, seeing him giving time to a potential threat (not), 'taking things slow'. That was a button-push called, How much do you love me, ergo, how much will you care if I dooo (push)...THIS!? Like a toddler's noisily interactive toy, you made squeaks and certain of your lights lit up and even played an annoying little tune. Aim, Fire, Bullseye - Tom is now reassured. They all try it at some point, believe you me. So *that'll* be "why even".

From your side of things, a little part of your mind would welcome an excuse to cancel the meeting the family. So that'll be why you rose to the bait.

Does Tom worry that I could actually be some love interest or ex? Have you reassured him yet like I advised (because I foresaw this type of event possibility)? When exactly did this happen, what was the order re. your telling him about this thread and his (letting his) ex chat to him as you (whaddacoincidence, what were the chances...*rolls eyes*) walked in and saw?

Don't let it put you in a weird mood. Men who aren't serious about you don't tend to try to get readings out of you (that say, "I'm naturally jealous because it's true I love you") by pushing your big buttons. Mr S did it to me, I did it to Mr S, he did it back, ...I did it back better, LOL.... And then, once we'd finished, we brought it all out from under-the-table and agreed it was a draw - we were both equally fruit-loopy over one another, both therefore as uncharacteristically insecure and trepidatious, both putting each other through hoops, tests and challenges to ensure we didn't end up with a repeat of our stinky ex relationships... it's part of the mating dance, no worries. COUGH - PARENTS! Bigger kids + bigger tenure and familiarity (thus harder to call the bluff) = bigger, longer-lasting hoops, etc.... "I've got a boyfriend, mleugh" / "Well, I've got a girlfriend, so mleugh back!". (Nooooo, you don't, ya tw*ts.)

Welcome to so-called adulthood, Lily. Great!...doesn't it, LOL.

Tip: try to always ignore the blah-blahs and surface actions and pay attention only to the definitive actions, like, I want to show you off to my parents and sibs. Now, why do you think he'd wanna do that, then. Gosh, me, I just can't think... (Don't panic though, doesn't mean he's about to pop the question "or nuffin'", but it does mean he can see you're the real deal with potential to match ergo must be put through some safety-check tests.)

Oh, and if he asks you, 'WHY - ARE YOU JEALOUS?!' or any variation in that theme, here's what you say: "Well, DUH? Of course I am! You think a woman in-love doesn't want to PROTECT her relationship as much as the man? What do you think I am - STUPID?" And then watch him do a couple of minutes of goldfish impressions before he pounces amorously on you or whatever other indication of joy mixed with huge relief. I call it 'p*ssing on their firework' (using an antidote). Because it works. Well, why wouldn't it, it's the truth, isn't it? :-)

That's another relationship success tip: You do *not* have to pretend you suddenly no longer love them or never did, just because you're angry at them for their bad or stupid behaviour. Ever. You make *that* over-common mistake and you'll start a whole negative interactional spiral (round, down, round...splat). Far better to throw an 'instant leveller' at them, like the above example.

It's a bit like when your toddler yells, 'I hhhhhhhhhate you!'. You're not supposed to say, 'I hate you too, you little sh*t!', you say 'Well, that's a shame because I LOVE YOU TO PIECES!'. It gets in... it does it's magic...even if they try to keep up the act for longer, meanwhile.


Parents split up

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Homework! Omg I love Home work, bl**dy h*ell I'm such a geek. Set me home work and I'm on it! I watched the trailer for Inside Out, last night and was like "yep, this is going to be good!" And then grabbed the sibs and made them watch it with me couldnt wait for sat night. It was awesome, totally get why understand you suggested. My brother for some reason thought it was going to be rubbish but when he finally stopped complaining, and watched he addmitted that he really liked it. I loved how it makes you think how your brain, personality and emotions work and it was all easy to understand. I loved all the characters, espically the imaginary friend but sad when he became a lost memory. I almost had to control myself from blubbing.
It made my sister cry towards the end, (she's not been feeling well all week, so emotions were already quite high) I think she really related to the girl character, didn't matter its was cartoon, same age, on the verge of puberty, inbetween kid and teenager. She was like "I really liked the film, but it made me sad mum and dad aren't together" . At the time it was a little unexpected, she's been making out that she was coping by being positive, which is her normal out look on most things, so I thought she was doing ok, but actually I think shes been bottling things up and she's realised she had been ignoring them. So had a bit of consoling to do and told her to be more honest with herself. But thanks for the surggestion, I'm going to get Tom to watch it too think it will be his kinda film too and I wanna see it again.

Good, I'm pleased my mum and dads self indulgence is just temporary, looking forward to the day when the wake up. By the sounds of my dads parents were possibly narassist people because they didn't give him a choice much of a choice career, they were both in the medical world too, and seemed like they were very controlling.

My aunt came down to stay today, the whole atmosphere in the house has changed, it really nice almost feel normal. She also wants to talk to both my mum and dad together tomorrow so my dad coming round could be interesting.

I'm worried about telling my dad I made a mistake because he to be loves being right and he doesn't like mistakes being made. To him its like the end of the world sometimes. It will be a long boring painful conversation when i decide to have it with him, where I will probably feel disgust, fear and anger < see what i did there?! :D. His answer will probably be to study biology at uni in hope that i might go down the medical route, no thanks. But he wouldnt force me into anything and he'll look ways to help, if i actually want to study psychology Becoming more and more appealing !

With Holly there is a little bit more background, not something I wouldn't normally blab about but the more I think about it, the more it makes as to why she's insecure like you said and why she feels like she needs to have a boyfriend all the time or attention. It's her step-mum who she doesn't get on well with. Her mum died when we were 12, it was a freak accident, she was just walking along the street and dropped something she was carrying, bent down to pick something off the ground and in the mean time a lorry had swerved out of control as car tried to over take on a dodgy corner and she ended up under the lorry and got crushed, she was on life support but never made it :(. Then not long after her dad met her step-mum who also had a daughter and within a year and half they have moved int and holly had to share a room with a little kid because her step-mum was pregnant and not long after that they got married. So she went from being an only child to a whole new family. But shes another one who is very good at hiding emotions and i've always been courteous when shes in a funny mood, like the other week and try not to fight with her on things.

The argument with tom seems a bit stupid now but he has suddenly become a little bit more attentive, not that he wasnt before, but his ex has tried to talk to him a few times since tuesday, but now without being rude he'll just give her a closed answers and move away. We've also got a couple of date nights planned without friends :).

He also saw I was nervous about meeting his family on sunday, originally it was just going to be me and him going to his brothers because his brother called him up and apprently said something like 'I got given some really nice meat and dont know what to do with it come and cook it for me and bring your new gf'. So hes been planning all week on how to cook this meal, hes very good, but not too sure how he manages to stay slim! But I think his mum said something so that she got invited too! SO On wednesday after texting his mum to make she wasnt doing anything 'embarrassing', we went round after school and I met her and the middle traveling brother too, feel bit more relaxed now. His mum was really nice And had baked cupcakes and got out the photo album and tom just died whilst we looked at photos and drank tea :) payback! The brother was friendly, a little more harder to read but I think he was jet lagged.

I can now he was testing things just to see my reaction, quite clever really. I did tell him what you told me to tell him and he nodded and said 'ok' so dont really know what he was thinking . His ex started talking to him last friday and then on mon and tues which is why it annoyed me, 3 times she tried! Also Jamie the guy who i do the open night mic, for some reason told him we used to go out, what he failed to tell Tom was that we were like 8 and in primary school! Tom did ask me a couple of weeks ago about him i did think it was a bit weird and was like "I think Jamie has a crush on you" i was a bit like 'yeah right whatever', because he knows he my first propper soon to be serious bf. But that could of been it.

He's got a little bit of an accent, when he pronounces certain words but to me he looks more like hes from cornwall in a surfer dude (he does surf or used to) kinda way! He keeps going on about driving down to falmouth where he used to live they've still got the family home there, sure i'll go one day.


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I'm so glad you all enjoyed the film, I knew it would be just the ticket when it came to bonding and team-building (and uncorking of tears). And, yep, saw what you did there - very good, tres drole! :-) I'm also glad you're taking both your sibs under your wing the healthy way. I mean, you're okay (because you're older), as your flourishing relationship shows, but it's a fact that acute stress can affect younger kids' brain development in lasting ways. So you're not just being a great sister by looking out for their welfare and keeping them feeling safer than they might otherwise. Huge Karma Kredits coming your way, I reckon! (Do you believe in Fate yet?)

(PS: How old's your sister again?)

Poor Holly! Sounds like she's caught on one hell of a non-stop nightmare rollercoaster ride, and *right* from the wrong age! I mean - good grief - ALL THAT, ONE AFTER THE OTHER, NON-STOP?! She must be made of really strong stuff, Lily, not to have had a meltdown yet. Worth a re-appraisal regards to being someone you could bond really closely with? I'd have thought out of everyone, *she* is the one could provide the greatest moral support and understanding, and you might well find that if you did confide in her, out her own stuff would spill. She must feel *very* alone and isolated of late. Do you suppose a regular girls' night, say, once per fortnight, with Meg and Holly might be in order?

As for Tom, sounds like he achieved an awful lot through that at-the-time seemingly cosy tete-a-tete with exipoos, not just the all-important litmus-paper dipping into your fluid. Appears like he felt the ex fully deserved to be used opportunistically (treated him badly, did she?) before finally being dispensed with in his bid to move on with his new life and you. I also note he didn't try to argue or put you straight in response to your pacification exercise regarding this forum...obviously liked what he heard (well done). :-) Additionally, he *might*, in fact, have been chatting to her to start the whole 'Out, damn spot!' process? (- name the famous Shakespeare play!). Whatever, his reactions say he evidently loved the read-out, while you yourself clearly can't help but be a tad impressed with his Honeymoon-typical, relationship-protective machination-ette. And his family evidently liked *you* (cakes baked specially, eh!).

I don't believe the 'given some meat' and 'mum asked' story, btw. I think that's another face-saver excuse for, "*I* instigated it, but don't want you to know I did". ;-)

What's clear to me is that Tom is utterly gaga over you, but naturally feels vulnerable and precarious for it, so is seeking reassurances as well as putting you through the odd, sneaky safety-check# (including getting his family's rubber-stamping), without in the process having to reveal too many of his cards in case it scares you off for his being "too heavy". (Again, typical for this point in the proceedings.) YOU know it's not too heavy for you, HE knows it's not, deeper-down. But that won't stop his fears nudging to get the better of him here and there... particularly when that Jamie fella is - "whoops!" - inciting Tom's mind to jump to conclusions. (Looks to me that Jamie either secretly fancies you or feels his performance assistant come friend is in threat of being taken away too much. But Tom will male-typically be like Bagpuss at the mo: "If I majorly fancy her, all my 'FRIENDS' must fancy her, too! ( fact, every man out there!)".

Parents are supposed to be right and know best; don't take that away from dad. However, if you want to avoid the 'told ya so' dance then I suggest you concede to his spot-on foresight and knowledge of you and how you tick, in a note left for him on the eve of the next switchover. [1] He can't crow at a piece of paper, can he; [2] he gets his rightful desserts (confirmation over his well-calculated judgement); [3] by the time you next see or speak to him he'll have pretty much lost the urge to do much 'told ya so-ing', if at all, anyway. Win/Win. Anyway, you could always gild his self-vindication lily [scuse pun] by explaining that you don't *want* to risk sullying what is becoming a keen, possibly life-long interest by turning it into a daily, 9-5 grind. I'd say that were a lot more flattering to his whole profession than pursuing it as a source of income, wouldn't you?

By the way, showing one narcissistic trait, like pressuring your son to follow in your own career footsteps, does not bona fide NPD (or any illness/condition) make. Again, it's got to be a whole group of symptoms, displayed as standard, and to a certain degree (or fewer, more extreme examples). Even if his parents had been, note that where they forced him, his response is NOT TO FORCE YOU. That shows a clear, lasting, *healthy* amount of resistance and rebellion. If anything, he could have the immunity of being sufficiently touch of Asperger's? Certainly they're well known to flock toward any profession that lays on pre-set, interactional scripts and rituals - medical, forces, teaching, judiciary.. - as saves them considerably from ad-libbing thus having to risk putting their giant size 9s in it ("a-gain!"). 'The end of the world' reaction could align, too, with Aspie over-caring and frustrated Rescuer bent. But again, that's just educated conjecture at this point.

Talking of Rescuer: Your auntie must really be fond of your mum and dad, their marriage and you kids to be willing to get so heavily involved. Are you lot the only real family she's got? Let me know what comes of the talk, won't you.

PS: Falmouth's brilliant, you'd love it! Check out the tourist website.

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My sister is 12 next week. I find it quite interesting watching her go from jump back and fourth. One minute she wants to play and enjoys being the baby of the family and then the next she wants independance and likes to experiments with make up ( my make up!) although doesn't wear any when out and about she's fairly sensible and can be a bit moody. Of course I was never like that.

I think my aunt thinks my mum and dad are just being silly. one of the first things she said to me after arriving on Friday after saying hi was 'why is there a f**king for for sale sign out side the house ffs!?' and then 'oh hi tom', how she missed all 5'10 of him (or however tall he is) I'm not quite sure! (I also decided it was time for tom met my mum, she's been asking about him and she has recently become less emotional and with my aunt coming, was even less likely to cry on me/him/us.)
Yesterday I purposely put myself in the lounge where I knew the parents and aunt would be talking, pretending to do homework. My dad tried to kick me out but my aunt was like 'no she's an adult, she can stay if she wants to!' . she knew what I was up to . She did it all very nicely and calmly but assertively and told them it's unfair how they're treating me and the sibs and asked them what exactly was wrong - they went on about meeting their 'new friends' and told her what they had told us not getting back together but think they can be friends. In the end there was a little bit of an out come firstly both apologised to me for how they've been acting - better late then never I guess . I had also mentioned my suggestion of marriage counselling ages ago and that they had never come back to me on that -who knows if it will actually help it was just a surggestion! They didn't quite say yes but they didn't flat out refuse like last time, was prob too soon back then anyways.
My aunt has two sons, who she's spoilt quite badly and now their adults, their really competitive with each other and very self entered. Thinks she's just realising her mistake! Both have stopped speaking to her at the moment *rolls eyes*. She's always been around :D.

Ohhh that's a very good idea on how to tackle my dad, he'll go through all the motions without me. Deffinately going to do that. interesting you think he might be a bit asperges, when ever he and I have argued in the past, my mum has always stepped in and often put him straight, unless I was in the wrong, and then she'd normally tell me not to worry and say 'I swear he's on the autism spectrum!'. I never really thought about it tell you said it too. Of course I'm now going to go and read up on it!

Meg loves organising things so I think letting her arrange a fortnightly girls night out would be good . Holly is a strong person her, step mum really just cares about her kids and isn't thoughtful at all when it comes to Holly And her dad is now wrapped up in his new family. My mum used to be really good friends with her mum and in the beginning when all the change was going on, she used to talk to Holly all the time and be like a second mum. And Holly often came to stay at weekends - when she's felt like it. Could confine in her but I'm worried I'll get upset and then won't bounce back.

Tom's ex is just not a very nice person! shes a bit of a bully but hides behind her 'friends, so teachers and others see her a sweet and innocent. she's very bitchy and was very persuasive over him. He wouldn't of known she was like this when he first started going out with her because like meg he joined at the beginning of sixth form. Holly and I were chose to take the new sixth formers under our wing, which is how tom and I met and became really good friends, until she swooped in and asked him out when I Kinda already had a bit of crush.
She also used to be really good friend with Holly when we first stated secondary school which was until after her mum died and she said something really horrible to Holly about her mum and Holly obviously completely wrote her off as a friend!

Went well today, toms oldest bro is really nice (they all were ) and his boyfriend are very flamboyant but not in an over the top annoying way, just really welcoming. I had to drive, because toms car wouldn't start, which meant doing the motorway, not been looking forward to doing but it's was either that or not go at all. Was already having a mini panicked attack but Joining the motorway was interesting toms words were 'Er, Lily I know you're already nervous and this is your first time, but it's probably would help if Opened your eyes whilst joining a motorway!' Was So scared, but he was quite good at giving advice and we got there in one piece, which was when tom kind breathed a sigh of relief and grinned at me and was like 'well that was an interesting experience but we'll see if there's a scenic route on the way home yeah?' cheeky git! So for the way home I let him sort out a very scenic route home and started to follow the sat nav but then saw signs for the motorway was feeling fairly confident, don't normally let things conquer me, and did the motorway, just to test his reaction since he's been doing that with me recently! Is that what you mean by p*ssing on his camp fire? :) L X

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Only rewriting this extra post coz Things have been slightly eventful and I'm a bit confused! :(

My sister got admitted into hospital yesterday morning, she's got a viral infection but only seemed to be getting worse. early Monday morning me and the parents took her to a&e she went all weak and and very pale :-/ she ended up in the children's ward because they were worried about her getting pneumonia, which is what my dad thought. She went through quite a lot they couldn't get a vain drip line into her because she was too dehydrated and she couldn't swallow anything so they kept were stabbing her. then she had an allergic reaction to one of them meds, which was a bit scary she suddenly got a rash all over her and couldn't breath properly. But she now got the right drugs going through her now. She's determined to be out by her birthday, which is Friday, I wouldn't like to be the one to tell her that's unlikely. Good luck parents and doctors!

Anyways tom came to pick me up from hospital and he was his normal self. But then later when we were talking about stuff he asked me if I thought I really needed to be in a relationship at the moment he also said not to take it the wrong way he wasn't breaking up with me but he just wanted to make sure we shouldn't just be friends. Er little bit too late for that. Seriously?! I hadn't doubted our relationship for a moment other then be A tiny bit worried he might if said say something like above and then run away but I didn't dwell on it. So of course I got upset and he did reassure me, I just don't like the fact he asked! I did tell My aunt, she staying till sister is out of hospital now, think she noticed I had been crying . But she asked me what have I actually done to reassure him and to make sure give back too and not just him do all the giving . So I'm trying to think of how I can show him but feels like I'm just about holding onto him.

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Will post tomorrow, again, bear with.

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Taking your points roughly in order:

1. Your sister's transition from kid to adult mightn't be as smooth/gradual and seamless as yours, more like a learner driver, "kangaroo-ing" (lurching) when they fail to depress the clutch fully enough as they start off in 1st gear. My son was the same - one moment behaving like an impressive adult, conversation to match, the next, little pouty kid again ("JUST BECAUSE!"). But it is hard being at that 'neither here nor there' stage, particularly as you simultaneously get told you're 'too young to do X' despite being 'old enough to know better'.

Put itching powder in your eyeshadow. (No, don't, I'm only joshing! :-D But at least you know what to get her for Xmas......a bottle of Jack Daniels and 20 fags, and that way she won't be able to locate your make-up bag from staggering and hacking like a navvy, LOL!)

What's happening for Xmas, btw, in terms of 'timeshare'?

2. *I* think your parents are being (effing, chuffing) silly, as you know... albeit, I understand why.

Liking how she stood up to your dad, I must say! She sounds like a right, no-nonsense character! Possibly newly more so, what with the fact this event will be secretly providing opportunities for lessons for everyone. (How old are her sons?) She also appears to be gearing up to actually kicking both their a*ses back into shape, don't you agree? Maybe she's going to do the typical thing of practise-run-ing on your parents before starting on knocking her sons' - the real deal's heads together?

3. Isn't it strange how they STILL, even at this fairly late stage with the cat supposedly out of the bag, insist on calling their supposed new beaus "friends". What - didn't even at this point want to 'name the puppies'? Yeah, funny, that. And also - apologising to you. Sounds like they're starting the process of of coming down from DefCon1.

"They didn't quite say yes but they didn't flat out refuse like last time, was prob too soon back then anyways."

Yeah, well, that's because they've a job to see through first, isn't it - this game of poker. Or, maybe not if they've moved on from flat-out refusing the idea of counselling? (Filing it for later, I'll bet.) Put that with the apology, your dad making way that bit too easily to Auntie ("Ma'am, YES MA'AM!"), and their not wanting to name (well, 'appropriately entitle') the puppies and... that's definitely a development for the better.

You just wait and see what Christmas apart does to the pair of them, though [evil cackle]. Tip: do play the usual, cheesy Xmas CDs around each of them, wontcha. ;-)

4. So how did the introduction of Tom go? And did he manage to pick up on anything, any subtle signs?

5. (LOL - Asperger's.)

"Of course I'm now going to go and read up on it!"

I'd better be more careful about what I say from now on or we could see you disappearing under a huge mound of books! LOL

Try the Wrong Planet website. They provide detailed descriptives of NPDs, as well (being as how Aspies make prime partner targets).

6. "Could [confide] in her but I'm worried I'll get upset and then won't bounce back."

Who, you? NAAH.

No, I think you should let Holly have that control (organiser). Or at least let her see you give her the option before then, if necessary, asking Meg. Holly needs to stop seeing you as a threat, see. Saying that, for all we know, Holly's past attempts to 'steal' Meg might be nothing of the sort and secretly a bid just to get *your* attention, especially now she's lost access to your mum and those sleepovers with you - her 'safe port' and place of belonging.

(Yeah, Tom's ex doesn't exactly sound like a happy or sorted bunny, does she. Are you noticing more and more now, how practically *everyone* in this world has some issues or other?)

7. "but it's probably would help if Opened your eyes whilst joining a motorway!'"


"I let him sort out a very scenic route home and started to follow the sat nav but then saw signs for the motorway was feeling fairly confident, don't normally let things conquer me, and did the motorway, just to test his reaction since he's been doing that with me recently! Is that what you mean by p*ssing on his camp fire? "

(On his firework, LOL. Yes.)

You're a fast learner in more than one sense, look! :-)

8. "she's got a viral infection but only seemed to be getting worse."

She's uncorking her bottled-up grief...just out of the wrong hole (so to speak). She might have to celebrate her birthday in the ward. That's what happens when you try to bottle things up, eventually it comes out physically by hook or by crook. It's like a Bunny-Boiler, stress...follows you around and plays havoc until you finally agree to engage with it....'isn't going to just let you IGNORE it, Dan!' (- name the film!).

Hope she makes a speedy recovery, though.

10. You AND THE PARENTS took her, eh? Noted.... noted, that for a supposedly divorcing couple - MY, aren't they an exemplar in cooperation! (You'd be surprised, Lily, you'd be surprised. Especially these days.)

Crap actors, aren't they... can't even convince themselves enough to convince other grown-ups, like Auntie and I. :-p

(Obviously things can change whereby feelings and decisions change, but AT THIS POINT, I'm still with her.)

11. Don't worry about what Tom said, he's just projecting his own fears and worries. Again, another button-push to see how you react and how fervently...because it worked to get a reading the first time so has proven a reliable method. I told you - he's hit that really insecure-making point where he's realised how into you he really is, and doing the usual panicking and "what if?-ing". So that's his "2", meaning, if he thinks he spots ANOTHER "2" (you being mentally distracted at times, naturally?), he's apt to pounce on it and think he's got an early-warning sign of a "4" (you going off him or bound to go off him at some point).

I suggest next time he comes out with anything like that, you remember it's to hear you 'squeak' and try *not* to rise to it, instead use humour and say something silly and drily sarcastic like, 'Weeeell, you do SMELL so.....maybe I ought to re-think Harry Stiles's offer, after all?..... but, naaaaah, it's alright, I quite *like* your unique pong, truth be told'. Alternatively, you could blank the alarmist statement altogether, and just turn to him and say, 'Is there something you want to ask me or need me to reassure you over?'. Or there's my own favourite: "Awww, shaadap, woman!".

Make *Tom* have to come up from under, in other words.

But - "So I'm trying to think of how I can show him but feels like I'm just about holding onto him." - you couldn't be further from the truth!

He just wants to be your All, that's all, and - being in insecure/not-thinking mode, isn't checking himself and remembering it's not always All About Him. But Auntie could be right in that you're not remembering to keep fluttering your lashes up at him?

Ridiculous, isn't it, given everything that's going on. But that's men for ya once they enter, "eek, I could lose her!" mode. Can't think of A.......NYTHING other than their own, unfamiliar degree of vulnerability in your hands.

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Quick joke for ya:

Why was 6 scared of 7? Because 7 8 9.

...which is obviously what happened up there, LOL.

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Oh, can stress really make you that ill might have to explain this my sis about this just so she knows.

Lol, itching powder in eye shadow, that would of been very appealing in the past! Don't mind sharing but There have been so many times where I couldn't find half my make up, gone into my sisters room and it's on the floor, grr... Yeah, looks like she's having her birthday on the ward today, not impressed.

My dad stayed on Sunday night was a bit weird (on the sofa) because he was worried about my sister, apparently he was there all day Sunday too. I didn't quite get my sisters thinking but she wanted me to come to the hospital so she wasn't alone with my mum and dad. But when I went a saw her yesterday she told me they had been arguing when together in front of her :-l think that's what she had been worried about. F.g.s! On a children's ward too? Luckily it's a small ward and there's is only one other kid but still. Mature, very mature the reason, why they were arguing when I asked them about it is even more pathetic!

Don't think my parents have talked about xmas but I've already decided I'm going to tell my parents what I'm doing. I want to be at home, as my aunt is coming to us and we've not has xmas with her in years but that does mean my dad gets left on his own but there is Boxing Day. There is an alternative, toms family were talking about xmas on Sunday and they all go down to Cornwall till new year and Tom's mum said to me 'come at some point if you can' tempting! but that feels a bit soon, apparently she meant it too.

I like how my aunt stands up to my dad too, she was a school matron at a boarding school, so she really doesn't take any crap, apart from when it comes her own kids. She still texts them and try's to call but the only person that responds to her is her daughter-in-law, who is actually quite nice and normal. I'd love it if my aunt kicked my cousins arses into shape, I think it's well over due! I'd also quite happily do it for her :) but er, they're bigger and uglier, so I'd probably fail!
They're both in their mid twenties the older one is OK-ish in very short bursts but the younger one really is a spoilt, tantrum throwing, little twerp, probably why he's been single for like, ever. I think he's the one dragging this whole thing on.
Reason is, My aunt isn't giving out xmas presents year. she's giving money to a Parkinson's charity and hospital and that is what their p*ssed off about, even though they have known about this all year, she's not exactly been quiet about it. Also one of her sons birthday is in December too and obviously he's getting a present but the younger son *sniggers* isn't getting a 'non bday present', which my aunt has always done when it's the others sons bday so other doesn't get left out *rolls eyes*. But I have a feeling she's going to give in and make peace that way. she keeps on asking me and my mum if she's being selfish.

Yep my parents are sh*t actors, I'm so bored of it all now but it's frustrating at he same time. I can't believe they are still using these friends as an excuse.

My mum really liked tom, apparently he's 'very handsome, and nice blues eyes' such a typical motherly thing to say. Tom's view was although he liked her, was that he didn't think he got 'real her', as in all he saw was that she is really sad and (without being rude) a bit flakey, which is true. she was more nervous about meeting him. He also seems to think they're not gonna go to marriage counselling and were just saying that because my aunt was there and they possibly scared of her he can see how she can be a bit intimidating. He's also not sure if the apology was totally sincere. He likes being honest!

Holly really liked the idea of a twice weekly girls night out no boys allowed. She busy organising something for next Friday.

Yeah Its a lot more notable that everyone does have their own problems. With toms ex I wouldn't be surprised if she has quite a few problems and eating disorder, too skinny.

I loved toms reaction when he finally realised I was heading for the motorway (he was playing a really annoying, stupid football game on his phone) He did the gold fish impersonation like you said and was like 'but I thought we were going the long way back ...are you sure you want to go on the motorway again?!'. He now thinks I have a rebellious streak, I see it as more keeping him on his toes :) .

I thought he might of been pushing the buttons again and If I wasn't really tired or emotional on Monday he might of got a different reaction from me, which probably would of been to challenge him a bit on it and ask him roughly what you put 'is there something you want to ask me?' Rather then tears! Not a great time to ask something like that though. Would of been interesting to see his reaction if I had said 'ok let's be friends then'. There were other questions going through my head like 'we're things going too slow?' Its deff not going too fast. Is he getting bored', Should we just be friends. he made me start to doubt myself. There was a little bit of tension between us the next day at school but we're back to normal again now. If I reassure him more, I'm Kinda hoping he gong to snap out of it!

My aunt came up with an idea by suggesting we go and stay in her house over the weekend or at least for the day, partly so I can bring her back some more clothes back! I wasn't too sure with sis being in hospital but she practically insisted and was like just go and have fun and get to know each other more! I thought tom wouldn't be keen and would be working but he's is willing to pull a sickie. He got a new after school job too, so he's not that bothered.

My aunt is going to text her sons were there for the weekend and surgest they go round . noooooooooooo!
(N) will just make sure we're really busy.

I liked the. Joke deff is what going!

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** going on

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I'm surprised your parents couldn't contain themselves in a situation as inappropriate as all that. But there again, I'm not surprised at all (desperate is as desperate does, including not feeling confident enough about arguing without "a chaperone-ANY-chaperone!"). Despite being how a couple would behave merely under a cloudy to stormy climate, the fact remains - they're still behaving like one!

Why does your dad have to be on his own on Xmas Day? :-O What with you able to drive, now, couldn't you take yourself and your siblings over to see him for a couple of hours or so? What about 'breakfast' and lunch at mum's and supper at dad's? Not only would that be fairer, but ("buy one, get one free") it would also have your dad sat thinking about your mum while you're with her and your mum doing likewise when you're over at his. Keeps things (regret and wistfulness) balanced.

Why do you see it as too soon to visit down in Cornwall over the holiday period? How long have you and Tom been dating? Or are you just a bit freaked-out at the seeming rapidity and heaviness of it?

Your aunt was a school matron? LOL, say no more! Well - manner-wise, anyway.

What was going on around the time the younger son was growing up, to have made him so spoilt? But, listen, he can't be behind the current impasse unless his older brother is LETTING him. So they obviously share the same beef... in which case I'll edit that statement to: What was going on around the time BOTH boys were growing up that now has younger brother playing Bad Cop and mouthpiece to his less forthright, less confrontational older bro?

Here's my opinion on auntie's proposal: if she wanted to donate to a charity, why couldn't she do that AND give her sons at least SOMETHING as gifts or even go half-and-half? Don't you think this (and the fact she's basically been reminding them (i.e. rubbing it in) over and over) indicates an excuse to withhold gifts? Obviously, it's not the gifts themselves (nor the 'non-birthday' gift) the sons are p*ssed-off about, but what the withheld act says and means (- behave/grow up or the cute puppy gets it!). I suspect auntie is expressing her end-of-tether frustration and desperation with them, IOW. Shame she let things get to that state in the first place, really, isn't it. They obviously feel she 'owes them mothering', still. And I'd say the 'non-gift gift' is indicative of her having over-indulged them for too long on that score and now finally having to deal with that 'comes around'; it's called 'creating a rod for your own back'. But I do think picking on important ceremonies to have her 'say' is a bit below-the-belt, I have to say. Has she never heard of a serious pow-wow?

Look at the parallel, Lily: your mum can't just talk straight and honestly (i.e. get real) with her own husband and her sister can't do likewise with her own sons. Did both sit on problems rather than deal with them at the time too?

I don't think she's being 'selfish', I think that's the wrong word. The word is, cheating, trying to deal with something the wrong and lazy, short-cut/one-hit-wonder way, rather than deal with it properly and more appropriately. There are better ways to say, 'I know I made the mistake of pandering too much to you and thereby giving you an over-sense of power and say over me when you were kids but now it's time for you to hoik yourselves up by your bootstraps, grow the eff up and grow some respect'. Easier said than done, though. I mean, you can't complain that two carpenters should be capable at their age of sanding a tabletop if back when you were supposed to be training them up as carpenters you denied them that lesson as well as any permanent sandpaper, can you?

Well, anyway, that's her 'desperate is as desperate does' business and limbering-up exercise (watch that space). But if she wants them to grow up fast she should buy each of them a puppy, get them thinking about needs outside of their own. Preferably from a dog shelter (= charity act PLUS not picking on the sacrosanct).

What does your mum say when she asks that?

Tom's mum obviously likes you, too, Lily. :-) No doubt helped by the fact she (I take it) doesn't have a daughter?

"He's also not sure if the apology was totally sincere. He likes being honest!"

Was he there, did he hear and witness the apology for himself? If not, what makes him think that?

"Holly really liked the idea of a twice weekly girls night out no boys allowed. She busy organising something for next Friday."

Excellent! I'll bet she'll go all-out as well (again, watch that space).

Could be eating disorder (Tom's ex), could be stress. Some people over-eat when stressed, some can't hack food full-stop.

"He now thinks I have a rebellious streak,"

LOL - no comment! :-D

"I thought he might of been pushing the buttons again and If I wasn't really tired or emotional on Monday he might of got a different reaction from me"

Typical confrontations-hating male. They positively wait UNTIL you're low, HOPING you'll be too tired or run-down to rear up (fail, LOL). That way they can say, 'it's not me, it's your PMT'. No it's not, PMT only affects how *strongly* you react, not 'whether'. Women are programmed to tackle the foe to immediately convert it to friend, men are programmed to retreat; study; then tackle, i.e. stick head in sand and hope it'll go away or fix itself before they risk wasting valuable energy (less stored-up fat, less energy to waste, innit).

"Would of been interesting to see his reaction if I had said 'ok let's be friends then'."

OR...'I don't want that, that's the last thing I want, but, if you do, I fail to see there'd be anything I could do about it. So - do you?'

"If I reassure him more, I'm Kinda hoping he gong to snap out of it!"

Difficult balance to strike, though. You don't want to over-feed his ego to where he'd get bulshy, so my recommendation is to do it in little portions so that once you can tell he's relaxed you can leave it there, keep that level maintained (until you can see it's time to turn that dial up some more, commensurate with how much deeper-in he's become since the last wobble).

Adding that with this, auntie's instinct:
"My aunt came up with an idea by suggesting we go and stay in her house over the weekend or at least for the day, partly so I can bring her back some more clothes back! I wasn't too sure with sis being in hospital but she practically insisted and was like just go and have fun and get to know each other more! I thought tom wouldn't be keen and would be working but he's is willing to pull a sickie. He got a new after school job too, so he's not that bothered."

Are you on the pill yet?

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OK there has been a bit of change. My parents have been arguing ever since their stupid argument in the hospital, it just seemed to spark off more rows. Even though my aunt has now had to go home, my mum and dad didn't care that she was there or what time of the day/night it was. At first I thought it was a good thing because at least they were communicating and it was better then them not talking at all but it then it got really annoying and quite sh*t.

I talked to my dad because the arguing was really starting to effect The sibs and me, and for once in like months, he actually talked to me properly. He has told my mum he wants to draw a line under everything thats happening between them and try and work things out. Finally one of them has said what they actually want! BUT My mum is saying she doesnt feel the same anymore, I dont know why, my dad seems to have an idea but i don't really want to hear it at the moment it wasnt quite hard hearing him tell me that. I feel quite angry with her but my dad has told me to leave it to him and to come and talk to him if I need to. I think my aunt has made him see sense somehow, with communicating with me and the sibs more, and as to what he wants, I know they've both had a few conversations whilst shes been staying with us. I don't think my dad is making my mum out to be a bad person or shifting all the blame onto her because he looked pretty gutted when he was telling me this.

My dad also doesnt want to sell the house and he wants move back in, one of the main reasons they have been arguing, I knew it! He is saying its his house, he brought with his parents money, he built it and pays most of the bills and he can afford to keep it. My mum buys food and pays for holidays, all that kinda thing. I have no idea how thats going to all work out all sounds a bit messy. He did say he's going to start looking into mediation between him and my mum if she doesnt want to stay with him. :(. So bit of a carp week! I really need a night out tonight.

I think something like what you suggested will happen at xmas now, i also have tom to fit in now (yey).He has told his new work he will work Christmas day, that really didn't go down well with his parents :-/ he decided ( without telling me) to tell them this when i was round his house, so he could say it and run but his plan failed because their reaction was "YOU AGREED TO WHAT?!', turned into a bit of a discussion but he says hed rather have new year off. He also thinks they are worried he's not going to go to uni because this new job could lead to things (its in a resturant, his kinda thing) because they havent been that encouraging. Up to him really. SO he won't be in Cornwall at xmas and hes asked if he can come and see me in the evening wherever I will be! Then we both might go down to cornwall till new year. We've been going out for just over two months but yes was a bit freaked out when his mum said that but now I think i need to get away and tom might of sad yes to working this to get me to go with him!

Well i thought my aunt was more practical then my mum, and my mum just worries about things rather doing something about it but maybe they are both the same when it comes to family. My mum did tell her its nice that she wants to give to charity and can see why she wants to do it but like you said, small gift would be nice, think that is what she is going to do now. But no one was going to get a present (apart from the little kids in the family) from her because she wanted to give a decent amount. And she has Parkinson's and feels like she wants to give back, i starting to see it form both sides.

I think maybe my aunt has spoilt the cousins because their dad left them/her? Cant really think of anything else that would of gone on. Both cousins area really competitive with each other but the younger cousin always goes too far.

The older cousin and wife invited me and tom to the pub on saturday night when we were at my aunts last weekend. I really didn't want to go but tom wanted to meet them and was like 'he can't be that bad!' And he wasnt really, he was actually quite nice, might be because he's become a dad recently. My other cousin showed up on Sunday morning, i was quite hung over and not really in the mood and all he seemed to do was moan about my aunt , but Tom was quite interested in the whole thing..

No toms mum doesnt have a daughter that i know of but I like her too, both his parents very easy to talk to :).

Tom hasnt pushed anymore buttons but i'm practising what to say in my head if and when he does! Hes already quite confident, dont want him gettting bulshy and If he ever tries the pmt thing with me well, that wont go down well!

Yes on the pill now , my dad was on my case, i get why, and I was getting a bit of encouragement from Tom too because erm...we're getting.a bit closer. But wouldn't of slept with him at my aunts house, whatever my aunt thinks, would of felt wrong. Holly has also been warning me that it can make you go a bit mentall hormonal wise which is why she had to come off it. Hopefully not the same for me.

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1. "My dad also doesnt want to sell the house and he wants move back in, one of the main reasons they have been arguing, I knew it! He is saying its his house, he brought with his parents money, he built it and pays most of the bills and he can afford to keep it. My mum buys food and pays for holidays, all that kinda thing. I have no idea how thats going to all work out all sounds a bit messy. He did say he's going to start looking into mediation between him and my mum if she doesnt want to stay with him."

'His' house? Que? Did someone forget to tell him he's married and that from the second he said "I do" there ceased to be any 'mine', *regardless* of whom overall was front-room person or back-room person the entire time? Even if your mother had never contributed a single material, tangible or monetary thing, she still owns 50% of literally all marital wealth and assets. That's the law.

Does he not know that simple basic or do you think he's relying on your mother believing him out of her own ignorance over rules of divorce so that she'll change her mind rather than risk seeing herself financially worse off? Or did he just mean 'my house TOO'?

Well, anyway, if your mum doesn't feel the same AS SHE USED TO then it's quite simple and as I suspected from the start: despite he must have wooed to catch her originally, your father for however long hasn't been doing enough of his wooing-to-keep-her duty in order to keep that 'pan of milk' nicely simmering. He obviously let the gas flame go out or remain too low whereby the milk got to cool down too much (albeit, if she's arguing she didn't get so cold as to form an actual skin, luckily). So the answer's equally simple, then, isn't it - he has to find a way to start heating her back up. And this time he's going to have start heating her from Cool rather than from Warm, which is difficult when your access is restricted. However, there is still always bouquets, chocolates, champagne; holographic photos of you kids inside crystals [seen that one work like a dream!]; creating an excuse to ask to discuss either or all of you kids (progress, problems, future plans, whatever) over an evening restaurant meal on him ("I won't have had time to have supper beforehand and presume neither will you, so I figured we may as well combine it...why not?") and making it an impressive, intimate restaurant ("Gosh, who knew this place was so nice?"); offering to do favours/DIY/heavy lifting at wherever she's staying//booking her car in for a service...that sort of thing, crafty or otherwise. But that 'it's MY house, MY money' nonsense, if true and genuinely meant (or even if not), is going to achieve nothing but send her even colder.

It matters not if the woman can see through any ploys because that's just her conscious mind, the rest of her will be LOVING it and telling conscious her to keep her beak out, shut the eff up, take it like a woman and keep her rain out of *its* parade, "thanks very much!".

I know it's hard on men's hearts and egos, but if a woman goes cool or cold on you, responding negatively (withdrawing, withholding, sulking, moaning, picking fights to get and gauge a reaction, trying to pull in 'the other woman' to stoke jealousy...all of that sort of rubbish) is only going to exacerbate things so is the WORST thing you could do (a woman wants a man, not another child). As a man used to putting his heart on the line and taking risks, therefore, you need to shove your feelings and ego aside, put on your big boy's pants, and step up to the challenge of wooing the woman like crazy all over again, same as you managed relatively easily at the start. Simple as that. Could you explain that to your dad outright or could you do it surreptitiously - plant the idea in his head - by asking him (when you're at his) to watch Pretty Woman and other such 'boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy re-chases and re-captures girl' rom-coms with you after the sibs have gone up to bed? He needs to see the Vertigo-ridden "Edward" (Richard Gere) LITERALLY stepping up - up Vivien's (Julia Robert's) fire-escape staircase, all the scary way to the top floor with a rose between his chattering teeth despite the fact of her earlier that day having told him they wanted different things so it was Over, thereby demonstrating that having or providing more money than the woman is immaterial because in matters of the heart, hearts have equal status. "Over, my a*se!", he said (or rather, *did-said*), 'It'll be Over only when *I* say it's Over!'. THAT'S the spirit! That's cooking on gas.

Basically, he needs to revert to being like the young, keen-as-mustard, 'not taking No for an answer' man he was when they first met. That's what attracted her to him, what had her sold when it came to agreeing to say 'I do', that's what'll RE-attract. Hardly rocket science. And if he never was like that then he'd better start to learn how, now, toute suite. No self-pitying noises, no whimpering or petulance and requests for clemency...You wouldn't give a car showroom rep your hard-earned cash if his sales spiel went something like this, "Granted, it's can be a bit of a lemon but it's not its fault that the clutch needs replacing and the tyres are bald or that it doesn't start well from cold (etc), the poor thing", would you. That would turn you OFF. You get sucked in because the rep goes on and on PROUDLY about all its other *attractive, desirable and positive* features and qualities. Same principle applies here.

2. "I think something like what you suggested will happen at xmas now, i also have tom to fit in now (yey).He has told his new work he will work Christmas day, that really didn't go down well with his parents :-/ he decided ( without telling me) to tell them this when i was round his house, so he could say it and run but his plan failed because their reaction was "YOU AGREED TO WHAT?!', turned into a bit of a discussion but he says hed rather have new year off. He also thinks they are worried he's not going to go to uni because this new job could lead to things (its in a resturant, his kinda thing) because they havent been that encouraging. Up to him really. SO he won't be in Cornwall at xmas and hes asked if he can come and see me in the evening wherever I will be! Then we both might go down to cornwall till new year. We've been going out for just over two months but yes was a bit freaked out when his mum said that but now I think i need to get away and tom might of sad yes to working this to get me to go with him!"

And are you saying here that Tom fibbed or over-inflated the hours he has to work that day so that he can be with you rather than his family as well as be ready for the off together to Cornwall?

3. "I think maybe my aunt has spoilt the cousins because their dad left them/her? "

You got it. The danger can start when a divorcee of whatever gender, no longer having a wife or husband, [1] makes the son(s) or daughter(s) the 'Little Man/Woman of the house' as well as on-call confidante, without even realising what they're doing or that they're doing it, and [2] gives too many privileges, treats and over-attention in order to make up for having 'given' the child such a crap other parent as placed them in this current broken-home predicament, and assuage their associative guilt in the process...go overboard, basically. The kid gets over-promoted, over-prematurely...the power (without the requisite experience and insight) goes to their young heads..and then, by the time the adult reaches the point either where they find the real-deal replacement lover or wakes up and reverts to being the strong, capable, independent adult they once were, the damage is already done and your kids are right cocky little over-entitled shisters that think they can dictate and demand in matters that technically are none of their concern or, more simply, still see themselves as the parent's equal (like the parent unwittingly conditioned them to be when needing an ear/shoulder/company) with equal say in all things, and argue accordingly. If she's trying to signify 'you have no say because it's MY money, MY power of decision-taking' then she's going too far too soon and should be weaning them off that power pedestal far more gradually. If you want someone to get off a certain chair, you can't try to WHIP IT AWAY in one fell swoop like that or the sitter will either hold on for dear life to said chair back/arms (tug-o'-war) or be resigned to having their bum rudely meeting the hard floor (injury + hurt, anger and resentment).

4. "but Tom was quite interested in the whole thing.."

Hee-hee...."Real, live lab-rats, yum-yum".

Tom's trying to 'save' first working it out and getting to the bottom of it all.

5. "Tom hasnt pushed anymore buttons but i'm practising what to say in my head if and when he does! Hes already quite confident, dont want him gettting bulshy and If he ever tries the pmt thing with me well, that wont go down well!"

LOL, no it won't. Especially if at the time you actually *do* have PMT! But he IS going to experience more wobbles, now that he feels your entwine-ment has hit a point of no (or too difficult and pain-laden) return. It's one thing to be confident when you're in any comfort zones, but, realising how 'locked-in' you are with 'the greatest thing since sliced bread, the ONLY woman in the world for you, gush-gush', can make even the most confident man in the world feel uncharacteristically vulnerable and insecure at times (and showing it). Well, you know how it feels, don't you, because you're in it with him. But he'll be slightly ahead of you in that respect, thus starting to wobble first and at times setting you off.

6. Phew! But it's not about being ready to go, it's about being ready IF OR WHEN you find yourself ready to go. There's the diff that makes ALL the diff.

Don't worry about what Holly said, there are LOADS of makes and variations of pill, meaning, if one gives you any undesirable side-effects you simply tell your GP and s/he immediately switches you to another type/make (despite you have to wait a few weeks all over again for it to kick in). Sometimes you're lucky and the first ever prescription suits you down to the ground, sometimes it's a suck-and-see experiment between you and the doc to find that perfect recipe. All depends on how 'difficult' you are. ;-) You're not, so...

PS: Ref her 'unspoken, open invitation', Auntie was obviously a bit of a hippy-chick back in her day. Still, I'm sure any of your parent-figures that love and care about you both would much prefer that WHEN you do it, it's somewhere safe, warm and familiar rather than halfway up a tree or some bus-shelter somewhere....because, let's face it, no-one can stop the tide, not even parents, so - if you're going to do it, the pair of you, then you'll find a way, regardless, in which case they may as well accept the fact and use their adult control and responsibility to help 'the way' to be as reassuring for them and as snug and safe-feeling for you as possible. Or Cornwally, LOL.

If you have any worries about [scuse pun] the ins-and-outs, but feel 'icky' about asking your dad or mum, feel free to ask me - we're both completely and utterly anonymous on here and can, within reason and watching our decorum, discuss anything you like. For example, a tube of Lube for your first time (preferably edible in case it gets on your fingers, and which costs as little as around £5-10 with delivery on websites like Ann Summers or Boux Avenue) would be reassuring to have at-hand (because nervousness isn't exactly conducive in that respect) even if you don't end up needing to use it. Oh, and a wipe the huge grins off your faces afterwards, LOL. And this phrase: 'That strikes as too much too soon for me, for our first time, I'm afraid'...not that you'll need that, either, what with Tom being such a caring, nurturing gent....which reminds me: be under no illusion...realise that, attempts to appear confident/experienced or not, Tom will be FAR more nervous than you...because, as he sees it, he's the one that has to do most of the performing and impressing (pressure-pressure-pressure!) in order to bring you, the pan of milk, to the fast boil and wanting a repeat next which case, this kind of phrase, likewise, is a handy one to have up your sleeve: 'Well, *I* don't care. Just being skin-to-skin with you was thrill enough for me at this point. And anyway, Torville & Dene never won Gold first time together, did they; it took practise...lots and lots of practise [grin]'

Lastly but not leastly, if it ALL feels like going to far too soon then there's always asking to just literally cuddle and sleep with each other with your clothes on for now.

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I'm sure my dad does know, my mum does I checked with her, think my dad did mean ' its my house too' and he has more of an attchement to it. Even though the house hasnt even had an offer my mum is looking at houses all the time on the internet, so I think my dad has some convincing to Do.

My dad asked me over the weekend if I think he should get my mum a christmas present and I told him yes, but he also needs to do more then just a present and he asked me what I meant (really?), so I told him some of the ideas above and then he went quiet and he's probably thinking and planning, well I hope he is! Think the seed has been planted. Seriously, Tom could give him lessons in how to do nice guestures or he could turn up at my dad house with a bunch or flowers and chocolates for me :D. Clearly his foot has come off the gas!

I think my parents do need to go out talk about us and look at how this is effecting my sibs and me and all the other things, going out somewhere together is proabably out of the question at the moment though, they're still arguing but not as much as last week. I've been getting a bit panicky recently, sort of having little panicky moments, go a bit weird and dizzy, happened at school and sometimes when im driving (I pull over) or when im on my own. Tom is convinced its axniety and stress has down loaded a 'mindfulness' app on my phone, he was a bit stressed when he moved from cornwall and apprently this app really helped. Not tried it yet but es gonna keep bugging me till I do. He's also been waiting for me to react physically in some way.
My sister was a bit of a brat this weekend, could of been hormoans but one minute she was fine then the next she was crying, then really sulky or angry and had a bit of an attitude. Normally she's not that bad and I can talk her round but she was having none of it. We went Christmas shopping and she just buggered off and when my dad confronted her she was like 'I have a mobile now, all you have to do is call me, duh'. I had to tell him to chill out quite a few times otherwise he was going to loose it with her. Its usually my brother but he's been ok.

I think tom was trying to please his new boss. he was given the option of working christmas and new year and he choose to work christmas day. I did say to him, if i did go to cornwall i wasnt going to drive, going to get the train or something, its like a six hour drive or more so i dont know if he thought that was a way to go together. Was slightly awkward though, it almost looked liked he had choosen to work so he could see me rather then be with his family!

I understand my cousins a little more now :D all makes sense.

No don't feel comfortable talking to either parents, before i might of talked to my mum and got advice from her but shes not right frame of mind but she hasn't even asked me how serious we are. I'm sure my dad would love some sort of insight, but he's so too open its so embarressing, so ok I will keep it clean and thanks for the tips.

Only thing i'm worried about is that it will proabalby hurt and I'm really nervous, Holly was giving me all the details on Friday night. Hes a little more expierenced then me coz of hs ex. Part of me just wants to get it over and done with and the other part is telling me to wait and it will happen when it happens, but I'm starting to feel more and more comfortable with him. literally when we were at my aunts and when i have stayed round his we do just hug and normally watch a film and he normally falls asleep first! Quite cute when he's sleeping though, I discovered has really long eye lashes too :D (shut up me). He's been testing things a bit more very recently, mentions foreplay and paying more compliments, which I'm crap at taking but don't think it will be too long.

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Forgot to say above, I'm going to leave my dad a note about a levels like you suggested a while ago this weekend and then leg it ha. Don't know why I'm nervous of his reaction but I am.

I did tell my mum a couple of weeks ago I should of taken psychology for a level and even she gave me a quizzical look said 'didn't you say tom wanted to study psychology at uni?'. She thought I wanted to study English and I was doing it because of him, so we could potentially be at the same uni, if we're still together, and told me I should do what I want to do. I had to explain that it is what I wanted to do. The more I read then more interested I am :). Now she's like if that's what you want to do then go for it.

She also thinks that leaving my dad a note it a really good idea and she's told me to be very factual and positive and his reaction might not be so, I told you so.

I've looked into it a bit more, I could go to college after school and do pychology there but not liking that idea as much. Just got to get the grades and because I'm doing alevel biology it helps and some unis want a science other aren't too bothered.

It's just me and my dad this weekend and I have lined some romance films up :).

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Bear with again, Lily - I should have time to do some posting tomorrow. :-)

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Amazing how long this subject has lasted. BTW lily good hear that your concentrating on your grades that's important

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Ok :)

Scopes, I know, it's quite long! Before my parents separated and bf came along too I guess, my life was very ordinary and boring, wouldn't of had much to write about. At the moment things are changing a lot but it's all put into prespective for me and I appreciate it. ah, grades, gotta get them first! :-/ :)

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Lily you're a good daughter to care about your parents. And you're also focusing on your future which is a good thing I'm using your alot aren't I. This subject should receive a longest subject running award from peoples problems.

Let's keep it going :-D

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Thank you, I care coz I don't really want them to get divorced but if they're going to be miserable and argue, I can't really stop them. I think they think I'm being bossy when I suggest things to them.

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(Nope, not even remotely the longest-running thread we've had on here, Scopes. Try, for example, searching 'Vildar' or 'Moody_One' - you'll see. :-))


Eyup, Lils!

1. 'My house too'. Noted (ta). Was just checking.

2. Well done, good instinct, for having told him Yes. (And I agree: "really?" That does go a long way to showing just how little he knows when it comes to how women tick, doesn't it, so - yes, Tom definitely could give him lessons!)

3. You do sound like you've been experiencing panic or stress attacks. Do you suppose this has all been harder on you than even you care to admit?

Have you ever tried taking Valarian or Chamomile (from a health food shop)? They work. They don't work if you don't need them but you notice the difference when you do. But all you need to remember is what I told you earlier, that you and your siblings' lives are going to be anywhere between fine/same as usual or however much improved. And even your parents will come out of this 'wash' perfectly okay or better than before. See this whole event/process as like teething: the new gnashers at the end of it will make the pain and discomfort entirely worth it. You'll see.

4. Your sister's finally got with the conscious programme, thus you're seeing a delayed reaction coming out. Her changing and fluctuating hormones won't be helping matters, either. Neither will this unavoidable attitude: 'Why the hell should I be on perfect behaviour when you two aren't?!' plus 'If I seemingly disappeared for x hours, would you even notice or give a sh*t?'. And then there's the little known fact of her mind using this period of a somewhat lack (on either parent's part) of attentive supervising and restraining to 'play while the cat's away', acting as if she's already a largely independent teenager.

Saying that, she had a point about 'just call her'. So why didn't he? Answer: he's been so distracted by his sensing over the last however many years that his marriage weren't in as good health as maybe it should be, that he's been in stasis, meaning, he hasn't been keeping track of her true age and developing, thus forgot to remember she's not a tiny, mobile-phone-less girl any more. In short, he completely forgot that these days she carries a mobile. That or he just panicked and in his panic was thinking, "EEK, WHERE'S MY BABY!!!" (they don't call it 'blind panic' for nothing).

Lastly but not leastly, there's this: "Its usually my brother but he's been ok." In other words, 'I (the place-less middle child) see a desk has just become vacant - I'm taking it!' doubt because she feels brother has just suddenly appropriated what previously was her desk. Make sense? So she too, now, needs to be given a well-defined, better role to assume in place of brother's old one (family rebel come troublemaker).

What are her unique strengths?

This game of musical chairs, however, is perfectly typical whenever other members in a pack start switching or swapping seats and the person concerned, this case your sister, can't think to create an entirely new place and role. It's just more noticeable during a catalystic event as (seemingly) huge as this one, that's all.

5. Re Tom trying to impress new boss: two for the price of one, meaning, engineering things to get to see you rather than the fam was a handy side-bonus of working Xmas. I.e. there's no 'looking like' about it - HE IS. He'll have to make it up to them, though... neither of you want his family starting to see you as a bad influence (inadvertent and innocent or not) in terms of turning his back on them and family traditions. Not saying that's a cert, just saying (yet again) prevention's better and easier than potential future cure.

6. Cousins/bit more insight: good!

7. Okay - ask away (if/when you need to). I'm pretty un-embarrass-able.

For now...

Holly Schmolly. We already know she's a bit of a sensationalist/dramatist and why (- currently needing to attention-seek), right? It won't hurt if you're comfortable and relaxed. And even if you weren't, 'hurt' is a bit of an over-exaggeration. Uncomfortable, maybe, if that. And then only fleetingly. But Tom's crystal-clearly very sensitive, patient, tentative *AND (ref (amongst other too-copious evidences) his proffering of that App solution) INSTANTLY RESPONSIVE* so I wouldn't have thought you had a thing to worry about on that score...One little 'ow!' or 'ooch!' or even 'oo-er' and he'd be straight out again and either stopping play altogether or waiting perfectly sweetly and reassuringly until you felt ready for a re-try; I think we both know you could be 100% sure of that. Put it this way, if I literally were you, it being *my* first time, *I'd* want it to be with Diamond Tom as well. But that's where the lube comes in because - diamond or not, it's still a completely new and (because of that) mentally daunting step to can't help natural, normal anxiousness. And even mere trepidation can 'block the oil can'.

But it may not. More than anything it's just about feeling at total relaxed liberty to 'jump out of the plane' because you've not just got the one parachute, but two, three, four....and a great big bouncy castle ready on the landing spot. IF, however, despite all the 'safety gear' you still feel to reticent, then, DON'T. Wait and try again some other time. But I'm betting it'll be a case of, 'Cuh!...what was all the fuss about, didn't even need the ONE silly parachute!'.

8. "but she hasn't even asked me how serious we are."

Do I take it that means your dad has?

9. Did Plan Romance Film happen in the end? What did you watch?

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Why you're absolutely right Soulmate! Started back in April 2015 wow! But this ones not over yet. :-)

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Nope. The Scroll To Bottom button hasn't even kicked in yet, look.

Did you want to contribute or join in, by the way, or were you just being a gentleman and keeping Lily reassured and entertained while she was having to wait for ol' slowcoach here?

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All of the above Soulmate I just want to be kind.

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Good news is leaving my dad to work out how to be romantic again on his own has worked. Since the 1st Dec, he's been sending my mum things everyday but he's been more thoughtful about it, like really sentimeantal things and a card . I think he plans to do this till xmas but it's also her birthday on subday and I think he's made plans to take her out on Saturday.
My mum is being quite emotionless about it all though, and has left her presents lying around, just not interested. he Got some flowers delivered and she didn't do anything with them, until I did. He's been coming round too, she just says hi but then doesn't bother to interact with him or doesn't mention her present until he does. Quite rude actually and shes the one who's got hot manners. Is she playing hard to get ? Tom seems to think it could be too overwhelming for her to get something each day when it hasn't happened for a long time.
But Not all of them are exactly expensive it's a range of things and I think she would tell him to stop if it really got to her.

Another thing is the house isn't up for sale anymore, which I was really pleased with but it's seemed to of given my mum more of a push to look for a house for herself/us. I really don't like that fact she's still looking to move and not wanting or thinking of staying even though my dad has told her loads of times he doesn't want her to go anywhere.

I think it's deffinately all catching up with me and it's all coming out now. I'm not always good with change. The panick attacks literally come out of no where ...but will look into what you surggested too though, thanks! The mindfulness app is also quite good during them.

My brother has told both my parents he wants counselling, 'coz you are both f***ing me up' were his words to both of them lol, at least he says it like it is :^) . My dad had a go at him for swearing but my mum was like 'noooo don't say that!'. Was a bit surprised he said that, my mum and dad have tried to get to get him to go before but he refused or he didn't interact when they dragged him to see someone. So they have asked all three of us, sister has said yes too, I'm thinking about it. But I also think they need to do something for themselves too, they said would do something and they haven't. Really annoying.

That does make a lot of sense with my sister and yes she did have a point with just call her, just how she said it that made my dad react. She also has two mobiles that she doesn't even know what to do with! She didn't want to do anything that weekend and just wanted to stay in bed. She's quite out going and high in energy but sometimes she just wants her own space and doesn't like people telling her what to do! But my dad wouldn't let her stay home alone, which started off her sulking, then when we had lunch refused to eat anything and plugged her ear phones in and listened to music, buried her head in her arms and cried :-/ and then disappeared was a bit worried and my dad deffinately panicked. But both my mum and dad still treat her like she's still little and I think she's starting to find it frustrating. When I asked her what was up that weekend apparently her 'leg was hurting', it might not of been an excuse but she didn't complain at the time, dunno if she meant something else was hurting or I was meant to guess, who knows. Figure that one out!

Unique strengths, she's free spirited and very creative, really good at art and making things, likes knitting, and has her own sowing machine, and teaches herself or youtubes, how to make things. she's hand made all xmas cards this year to send to family and her friends (tom even got one) but she personalises them - bit of a protectionist too like me and won't give out anything that she thinks is crap. All really consuming stuff that I would normally give up on in five minutes. It sounds like I'm talking about an older relative. She also into normal preteen stuff :-/.

I think Tom does owe it to his parents somehow, his mum is still really disappointed with his decision, think they've had a few more discussions about it. I have told him he can change his mind, I don't mind going by train to Cornwall, he knows by now I will just sit and read for however long it takes. At first he was quite deffensive and said they never ask him what he wants to do at xmas, they expect things of him and he's always done what they want. Now I think he's feeling a bit guilty but he's too stubborn do change anything. When I have seen his mum she's been really nice, she very discreetly said to me that her parents got divorced, she was older then me and she's there if I want to talk :).

We had a movie afternoon my dad was working in the eve. This was after I made him go out and get a xmas tree and decorate because he said he wasn't going to bother with a tree. Whaaaat!
We and watched 'if I stay', a romcom/family drama, maybe a bit too chick flicky/ teenager-ish for him but was quite a message behind it but was also a bit depressing and then he didn't want to watch pretty women and he choose 'stepmom' because he likes Julia Roberts as an actress, fancies her more like, and it was also a bit depressing!

I think my dad does think tom and I are getting serious and no doubt thinks we're sleeping together. He really likes him, and keeps telling me he's good for me. he's Would be as nice to tom if he didn't like him and he very relaxed around him, more so now because tom came round before he went to work on sat eve and cooked and it was yuuum. And was he was cool with him staying over, but he was embarrassing when he said 'don't bounce on the bed too much it's a bit broken' urgh, shut up! Don't think he quite meant for it to sounded like it did or be weird.

He sees us more together then my mum does she's quite nervous with tom dunno why, not exactly intimidating. I'm beginning to think me and my mum need to talk more I want her to ask me things but she hasn't.

I'm beginning to think Holly enjoys trying to scare me, she made it like it was going to be really painful and be bloody but yeah she can be quite dramatic. Don't think I'm not going to listen to her as much! She's got a new bf now and this Friday, we're going out, and now suddenly it's totally fine and bfs that are invited. Meg is putting up a really big fight though and thinks it should just stay with the four of us and that how it should stay, I agree with her and that feels really weird coz I don't normally, but Is it was fun last time, so could all change by Friday.


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(Thanks, Scopes! :-) I don't have any objection to your contributing if Lily's happy with it?)


1. Re. Provider-Nurturer (and willingness) displays: Excellent! Let's see whether and how quickly he can 'kill her with kindness'.

2. Er... If I Stay isn't a comedy in the slightest and is about Acceptance/being philosophical. And Stepmom is basically in the same vein. Hmm... not sure I like those choices and what they might be saying?...especially since the fact is, Julia was in Pretty Woman as well, so... You were there - what do you think?

3. I think mum's behaviour indicates a sense of righteous victimisation, despite (actions!) she's meanwhile allowing dad to basically breeze in at will. If those seeming contradictions together don't say, I WANT SOME REALLY *BIG* GESTURE, NOT PIDDLY LITTLE GIFTS! - because he's the one who's wronged her, not the other way round - then I don't know what does, do you?

And I'd have thought, with WRONGED being the case, diamonds *and* meant promises of re-negotiations were in order. Again - wouldn't you? Not that he CAN'T 'kill' her with lots of little peltings but a very grand gesture would obviously fast-track the progress on that score, I'd have thought. I mean, let's be honest - what woman would be capable of turning her nose up at a 24-carat necklace or set of earrings or Dearest ring or something else equally impactful plus deeply personal (according to whatever usually tends to wow your mum)?

In short, I'm starting to wonder (only a theory at this point, though) whether dad perhaps cheated or possibly even (overdue argument excuse fodder) just let some woman try to overstep the mark and failed to deal befittingly with it, whereby it insulted and wounded the heck out of your mum...who's now, given what you describe, SULKING yet - note! - simultaneously willing to keep giving him the stage, so to speak, and - equally note! - *not* actually dumping these gifts in the bin (funny, that). Look at it this way: if your dad felt HE were the wronged party - or even EQUALLY the victim - surely he's be unable to bring himself to start showering her with love tokens, surely each act would stick in his craw, especially when Just Been Made Vulnerable isn't usually willing to make himself ten times *more* vulnerable by putting himself in the firing-line for more rejection (the risk of her throwing them back in his face)?

Your mum's behaviour isn't 'emotionless' if she's meantime letting him buzz around her, is it. It's more petulance aka sending to Coventry but where he has to BE THERE in order for any such snubbing and hoity sniffing to get registered (think about it).

So - ACTIONS! Maybe he DID in some insulting way entertain the advances of that locum nurse?? Or even fail to cut her back down to size and put her back in her cheeky box? Maybe that's what had the woman feeling so at liberty to act over-familiar even in front of you as well as hang around uninvited that time you described? What do you think? Do you agree that mum's the only one showing quiet fury and resentment while he's busy pelting her with mini Sorrys and/or I Didn't Mean Its?

Alternatively, yes, I suppose equally it could be a case of her 'saying' Too Little, Too Late and/or Do You Call This Fixing?

Question: These birthday plans - does she know about them and has already accepted or is he planning on surprising her with them?

Well, anyway, no, I don't think she intends on telling him to stop. I think the message is, 'Hmph...nothing to write home about - but I'll keep making it possible for you keep trying harder!'.

4. WHY isn't the house on the market any more? Did your dad take it off? If so (uh-oh), I can imagine your mum's apparent endeavour to find her own new home is more a message to say he can't stop her doing whatever she wants or decides because he's not the boss of her, and nor can he get her back by any such kind of, to all intents and purposes, brute force.

5. Glad the App's working! (Care to tell the community at large what it's called in case anyone else could do with it?)

6. So are you confessing that you're holding your own counselling opportunity to ransom so that and until your mum and dad will agree to couples counselling? Is that because you deep down know you can afford to, i.e. sense you don't really need it with Tom and myself (and now Scopes) constantly on-hand?

PS: I shouldn't find how brother put it funny, but I do! Interesting how your dad basically said 'cease immediately/don't even go there!' and your mum said 'OMG, the guilt!', isn't it. Those two pieces go on the evidence table for sure, as does the gift showering and her allowing him to 'pop in'.

7. "apparently her 'leg was hurting'". Code for, don't want to discuss it. Also, methinks whatever music she was listening to at the time contained some or other deep 'n meaningful, altogether pertinent-sounding lyrics that set her off (hence her feeling stupidly sentimental in retrospect thus not wanting to admit it to big sis, someone she obviously wants to impress). Did you try again later or leave it at her knowing she could talk about it if/when ready?

"It sounds like I'm talking about an older relative." Sounds like you're talking about your auntie in miniature, actually - wouldn't you say?

8. Poor Tom's mum, yeesh! Has he been reading a manual, called, How Best To Make Mums Cry? I mean, couldn't he have found something less major and upsetting to "assert his authoritah" over, than Christmas of all things?

Is he intending on finding some way to compensate her? That would be the sensible, clever thing to do, wouldn't it? Especially if he didn't want you coming away thinking, even subconsciously, that what he's basically done is show you how manly-powerful he can be when it comes to mistreating his own mother?? Is he even aware of that resultant, subliminal impression? (And had it crossed your mind yet?)

Well, anyway, let's see. If he's feeling guilty then it might just take him a while to put something back to resurrect the smile on her face. If he doesn't, however, I suggest you buy her a souvenir/gift while you're down there (and make him pay half ;-)). At least then she'd know the pair of you were thinking about her/considering her feelings and did feel bad about it.

9. Wasn't going to bother with a tree, eh? No point? No point to anything like that any more- "whaaah!"? Or was it just said for effect, as in, yet another under-the-table 'HEELP MEEE, LILLYYYYY!' tactic, i.e. him wanting a pep-talk?

10. Crikey, what did Tom cook?

11. "when he said 'don't bounce on the bed too much it's a bit broken'"

He didn't! :-D Well, "touche!" if he did cos, trust me, it's even weirder when your baby goes from nappies to sexual intercourse with serious lover! You got the LONG end of the straw, missus!

LOL, shame you didn't think to say, 'We don't do 'bouncing'. We float', isn't it. (Damn! You'll have to find another opportunity, LOL)

12. "I'm beginning to think me and my mum need to talk more"

Agree. What about, 'Mum, we need to talk'? This is your MUM, yes?

13. Trust me, Holly isn't enjoying anything about this. She obviously can't stop herself wanting you and Tom's relationship not to keep going so smoothly, so what better way than have you so nervous about s*x that you keep putting Tom off, whereby the resultant frustration from both your ends [- scuse pun] leaks into your interactions and possibly causes bickers? That way you won't (or won't so soon) get to the point where you 'leave her' in favour of Tom, Tom and more Tom, will you. I seriously doubt she even realises she's doing it, though (she's too young and battered to have that level of self-awareness). So I'd have thought your best bet were to (as I said to an empty room previously (;-p)) NOT GIVE HER ANYTHING VALUABLE to affect or influence in the first place. Ask me or, better yet, ask Tom. He IS your teammate, after all, correct? (I'll be back-up. :-)) Doesn't matter if he doesn't know or can't provide the answers, so much as you having managed to communicate, in a nice, passively ladylike way, your specific worries, fears and that he can ensure to be prepared to respond to them the right and sensitive way on the night. Oh, and don't worry if it exposes you as ignorant. Frankly, that would make his year!

"She's got a new bf now and this Friday"

Ah. So there was also a bit of trying to slow you two down a little in there. The cosy couples race is on, then [rolls eyes].

"Meg is putting up a really big fight though and thinks it should just stay with the four of us and that how it should stay"

Meg too, now? Good GRIEF!

You know what your problem is, don't you, Lily? You're just too damned gorgeous to the point of everyone fighting over you and wanting a piece of you!



(ha-ha :-D)

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Lol I most certainly don't want to kill her with kindness Soulmate or is it possible? However I'm glad to hear good news at the beginning of her reply

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(Never heard of the phrase, to kill someone with kindness? It basically means to spoil someone rotten.)

Actually, Lily, strike that bit about 'might have cheated'. My jello doesn't like it AT all, can't make it fit. Aspergics (Grade A limpets) in committed relationships tend not to even flirt, let alone cheat, and mostly aren't even aware when someone's trying to flirt with them or overstep the mark - as you witnessed for yourself at the surgery. Another reason they don't cheat/lilypad-leap is because they have no problems being in their own company, being largely solitary animals, thus next to no fear of finding themselves single and solitary. Plus they tend to be over-responsible control-freaks, with under-active egos in terms of that would explain how your dad would be managing to be pelting her with love tokens - *choosing to believe* he must be at fault somehow thus at full liberty to take control with trying to mend and make up.

Telling you not to bounce too much on the semi-broken bed also strongly indicates the typical AS situation of practical concerns completely blocking out all awareness of overstepping a boundary, embarrassing you and Tom by being over-personal (i.e. practical over emotional).

But what I *can* still picture and make fit, is your dad seemingly having let some woman make advances, unimpeded, and - whether she witnessed it for herself or gleaned it from his conversation that fateful afternoon - your mum thinking it were a passive or passive-aggressive form of encouragement, reacting badly, and (cue overdue need to argue) the disagreement escalating and getting out of all proportion from there. But we don't have any evidence for that, bar her apparent sense of quietly 'mortified' self-righteousness.

So what does still stand is her consistently demonstrating a clear belief that he's the one in the wrong who's upset *her*, without our being able to work out in what regard. If I haven't detected at least *something* by now then that might mean, because the reason behind it all is so ridiculously tenuous.

Question: You mum cut her hours, you said. Could it be she found out that afternoon that your dad was set to increase his and took it as definitive proof of his not wanting to get back into the love boat with her, now that you kids are lower maintenance, as opposed to his thinking great provider on its own equalling blanket proof of romantic love?

Plus there's auntie: if her sister had cheated or been actually cheated on, she wouldn't even need to be confided in, she'd sense it, regardless, and ('knowing' her) push and push until she got a confession...and yet she unwaveringly insists it's something about nothing and the pair of them just being complete prats. So I trust her opinion and am back on the bench with her, concluding that you and I find the thought that there must somehow/somewhere be a more definite reason for the split too compelling when - no, there isn't.

Another thing: You imagine being your mum's supposed new boyfriend, managing to pick up (as you do) on the fact that the supposed ex2b is being allowed to come and go like that and, not least, seeing love tokens of his strewn everywhere? COME ON - no male love interest would put up and shut up about that, would they! But they would if they were JUST A PLATONIC FRIEND.

No boyfriend. Load of ollocks.

What about the so-called girlfriend, seen or sensed any further signs of her? You've have said so, surely? And she, as equally as the new bloke, would be bound to pick up on his 'woo her back' campaign. In which case - no and ditto.

Sorry if I alarmed you, but at least by daring to 'try it on for size' we can feel that much more confident at expelling it from the evidence table.

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Yeah, that's cool if Scopes wants to join in :).

I should have put, that I knew those film choices were bad ones, didn't choose the second one that was my dads choice, will try again some other time.

Ok scrapping the dad cheating idea! It didn't panick me, I don't think that locum nurse even works there anymore and at the time I was more worried about her then my dad.

Agree don't think any new gf or bf would be happy with an ex sending gifts, I wouldn't!

Yeah, I think you're right about my aunt she would of sensed something and she would gone mad at my dad if he had cheated when she came to stay, she already knows how to put him in his place. She's gonna be very disappointed when she comes back at Christmas.

Deffinately would of said if I had seen these 'two friends' or what ever they are to them. I have a feeling my mums friend is just an old teacher friend from her old school and thats it. She really was angry with my brother when he sent that message on fb I think if he was a bf she may of reacted differently? I don't know where my dad 'friend' has come from. Most of my mum and dads friends, were my mum friends in the first place. Don't know if they see them when me and the sibs aren't around.

My mum moved schools and it was a bit of a job change because she now teaches older kids, she gets home earlier because the school is a lot closer to home. My dad does do a of out of hours so could be something be something like that.

Um, my mum did know about the birthday plans, doesn't like surprises, but she told my dad she doesn't want to go out with him and has told him the best present he can give her is to let me and the sibs be with her this weekend (ouch). so that's what he's done, dunno what he had planned but think he's a bit hurt, he's gone quiet now or he's thinking about what to do next! I choose to stay out of this, and not react to her decision or persuade her to go, it's her birthday. I'm actually looking forward to spending the weekend with her.

The house wasn't getting any viewings and I think my dad did get it taken off the market because he wants to move back in. My mum has said he'll just have to wait till she ready, he's the one who moved out.

Oh yeah! My sister is a miniature version of my aunt they both like their options to be heard and they look scarily similar too. No I didn't ask her again, she knows where I am.

The app is called Headspace - meditation and mindfulness.

My brothers tone of voice was quite bitter when he said that something my dad failed to pick up on!

At the moment I don't think I need counselling, I get everything out on here, it's a bit like an online diary :D. Not too sure if I can be bothered to go through it with someone else otherwise I'd be thinking about this allllll the time and I don't think I'm going to get any better answers. I try to distract myself. I more want my mum and dad to sort themselves out and do what they said they were going to do couple counselling or something.

I did really like the idea of seeing tom in the evening on Christmas Day but I really don't like the fact that his mum is upset about it or that he's kinda being a bit of an a*se,< don't like putting that, but I don't want him to show me how being powerful or manly he can be, just want him to be himself and to be nice to his mum.
She has obviously said something to the family because his oldest brother has also tried to talk him about this and was trying to get him to go. Dunno if it needs to come from me (?) but he might get a bit p**sed off, if everyone is on his case.
He WILL be compensating her in some way, I will be making sure of that! Like the idea of buy her something when we are there, although his mum had warned me to never, ever, ever, take him anywhere near any shops, unless is food involved because he's the moodiest shopper ever - interesting, a side I haven't seen yet...but like I'm going to put up with that!

Tom cooked fajitas, which is basic for him, but he did it with king prawns in bread crumbs and made the salsa.

Yes my dad did say that! I'm still cringing about it, he was doing quite well till he said that :-I. I'm not very good at thinking up come backs on the spot, I just said 'what did you just say?!' Idiot, he didn't repeat.

Ok, won't give Holly any more information or little! It's ok if she ask me something about me and tom but if I say anything she still kinda glazes over a bit, so I had kinda stopped anyway.

* You know what your problem is, don't you, Lily? You're just too damned gorgeous to the point of everyone fighting over you and wanting a piece of you! --lol, nah uh! Didn't see it like that. Megs was more like what am I supposed to do whilst your snuggled up with your bfs and Holly's answer was go pull a guy? Easy for her to say. Holly got her way last night and her new bf did come but he ended up dumping her, he seemed really quiet and a bit uncomfortable so things ended pretty early! I think she was a bit too much for him, he came across a bit quiet or he was uncomfortable. Have checked up on Holly today but she's not replied yet :-/.

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Be with you tomorrow, Lils.

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OK :)

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I've read and noted everything, comments as follows:

1. Oh, I didn't grasp that it was one film each, sorry. Yes, next time. But definitely make it Pretty Woman - if you or your dad can stand it? I think you will. Because, even though it's romantically a bit OTT and realistic, demanding a level of suspension of credibility in places, you can't help but get completely sucked in to where you're cheering on both lead characters equally (not least due to their having a common enemy in the form of Edward's misandristic, so-called best friend, Stuckey). So it should work to inspire your dad significantly where concerns making the grander and suaver gestures, despite containing your own input to within-reason, harmless (yet powerfully effective), subtle influencing level rather than actual meddling. After all, even in situation normal, parents are *supposed* to learn from their own kids as well as the fact of having kids, n'est pas...making this an overall win/win tactic for everyone concerned.

2. Loco Locum nurse - noted.

3. "Agree don't think any new gf or bf would be happy with an ex sending gifts, I wouldn't!"

Exactly! So even if they *do* have "special friends" (yuh, right) then they clearly can't value their feelings or the relationship a jot. Relationships doomed from the start if they exist and doomed if they don't (if you see what I mean).

4. Yes, she'd definitely have reacted differently if the guy were genuinely a boyfriend...because it would have been only to be expected/par for the course and perfectly understandable, meaning would have been more okay about it in that context. But not if as far as HE knew, he were just a friend...think of the embarrassment (if you were similarly a stickler for etiquette) of having to explain why her son had acted that way (cringe) so as not to give the guy ideas (cringe-cringe).

5. Re your mum having gone to the enormous trouble of engineering shorter days and less pressure: maybe they'd both long agreed to start winding down the careers a little by X Year (highly common stuff) or even to secure situations where they could meet for (cough!) lunch at home (like they tried), in order to focus more on their relationship, which your mum adhered to, to the letter, but your dad ended up having to welch on (permanent staff being so low on the ground lately) as led to a fight and joint impasse? That would fit *too beautifully* with why he had been the one to have to pack his bags, would it not ("All you care about is your career, not us!...YOU *PROMISED*, you've been promising for *X* years now!...I've just jacked in my perfectly good job and accepted a lower salary for nothing!" etc., etc. / "I can't take this any more, if I'm not good enough for you I'LL GO!" / "Fine - do - see if I care!"...*slam* / "Whaaaah, I hate him, I hate him, I hate him!"). It also fits beautifully with why your dad feels guilty and responsible enough to try to be the mover-shaker even in the face of staunch frostiness.

Major goals, such as that biggie, aligning is *mucho* importante and any veering from the script definitely cause for major rows and fissures.

6. She wants you and the kids at the weekend and as an extra/'birthday present'? Not her "new special friend" with all his exciting novelty factor?? GOSH, curiouser and curiouser, said Alice! ;-)

7. "I think my dad did get it taken off the market because he wants to move back in. My mum has said he'll just have to wait till she ready, he's the one who moved out."

UNTIL SHE'S READY? And he was the one who moved out, "not me, so there!")? Ah-hah! Dad ran away from the argument because it was too much 'drama', making him emotionally flood and run (typical). Yet mum, in her own word-slippage, FORESEES A READINESS? INTERESTING! She's holding herself/their marriage to ransom "until" he finally agrees to deliver his side of the goods! (Can't really blame her, eh.)

Houston, I think we have a case of Case Closed. :-) Think about if it were you and Tom, Lily. How on earth do you find a way to explain to little people or anyone outside of the day-to-day marriage, not privy to their ins-and-outs and all that had for years and years led up to it nor never experienced marriage before, let alone to their tenure of success (which would include Auntie!), *and* in a way that doesn't sound highly petty and immaterial to said uninitiated ears compared to the reality of the whole situation, and attract nothing but disapproving criticism instead of agreement and support (either way)? Enter mutually-agreed cover story.

8. Sister knowing where you are isn't the point. It's about knowing she CAN. And if her mind is stuck on Can't to the power of 10, you have to counter it with CAN to the power of 10 to remove that mental blockade. Or you could box clever and solicit brother's help in approaching her, give him a sense of importance and efficacy into the bargain (win/win)? He's closer in age to her yet (different gender) isn't the one she'd want to aspire to and impress/not look silly or childish in front of. But you could just put it as, 'She won't talk to me but I reckon she definitely would to you'. It would stop him feeling bitter (powerless).

9. It *is* an online diary. You wait until this has all come good again and you get to re-read your thread, hindsight being 20-20 vision and all that.

10. Tom's obviously, understandably for his age (boys lag behind girls in emotional maturity) got a sliver of childishness still in him, as in, 'I don't need parents, they can't tell me what to do any more!'. Well, nobody over the age of 22 or so ever says, 'I don't need parents' (even parents and grandparents "need their parents" at SOME point(zuh)) so - mission failure if appearing grown-up and independent is his aim. But - I agree you don't want to be on his case. So I think the simplest thing to do is to spot something when out "just quickly browsing" the local shops (on the way back from a country pub?) and say, 'Ooh, I reckon your mum would *LOVE* this!...and we do owe her a big Sorry, don't we' (note the Royal 'we').

11. Don't CARE what *you* see yourself as, clearly, going by all the actions, everyone else begs to differ, so :-p.

12. Oh dear, poor Holly. Has she responded yet?

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(Sorry - UNrealistic) (obvs)

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Soulmate, really wanted to write this before but didn't want to confuse things.

On Sunday, my mums said to me, she felt really bad about turning down my dads offer to take her out for her birthday. We went out on Saturday but Sunday we weren't doing much and I think she felt like maybe she could of gone out with him? After thinking about it for ages, she decided to go and see him, this was without any encouragement from me because I wanted her to make her own mind up. But I was quite pleased, trying not to get excited with her decision.

But she came back within like an hour, really angry and all she said was (um, I'll leave the swear words out, she never swears but she was litterally shaking with anger) 'her car was in the driveway' and before I could ask 'who's car?' 'And 'who is her?', she was just like, I can't talk about it and walked away.

I know she was too angry and upset to talk but I can't really cope with the one liners and then disappearing without her saying anything more. It's a bit like here's some nice little clues for you three to work out, have fun, bye!. My bro and sis were just looking at me as if to say 'what the hell is going on?'.

I don't know if she even saw him/them, had a fight - she doesn't like confrontation but maybe she did. Or this person could of been there as a friend and my mum took it the wrong way but my mum isn't giving anything away at the moment, I can see she's still angry.

I agree, it could be about work they argued about, when they split up and they both obviously must of turned to confine in someone. But How does that work with the above theories and my dad being possibly aspergic ? Hes not an idiot, well ...maybe emotionally, but he must see what's going on, if he's being lead on by someone/ a friend and wants it to stop, or he doesn't want it to?

But Confused about the wanting to 'draw a line under everything' and wanting my mum to stay but there have been no more presents since she said she wouldn't go out with him.

There is a Huge part of me that wants to go and confront him and I might still do just don't know what else I'll find out. But also want answers from my mum .

not sleeping too worried, so I need to do something, any actions? :-/ :(

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Relax, Lily, any panicking or worrying on your and your sibs part would be a complete and utter waste of energy. She's just deliberately winding herself up, that's all, again perfectly typical under this post-fight, stand-off circumstance, I'll explain the surprisingly simple reason why, later.

Parents split up

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Surprisingly Simple answer, really? phew, Okay! :) feeling like a bit of an idiot now for worrying and losing sleep, but she really worried me with her dramatic-ness, which I don't like, not cool! zzzzzzz.

Answering rest of the post.

Is there any point in trying to watch Pretty Women with my dad now? Can't remember if I said above he didn't get why I wanted to watch it with him, it's fine for him to make embarrassing comments and be very open but won't watch 'that kind of film' with me :-I . Next time No choice.

Yes, I can see the embarrassment my mum has to of gone through with this friend from her old school, not good! :-/ . Readyness and case closed I was hoping so!

My sister does know she can come to me :) she has been in my room all the time so far this week, my brother comes and goes too, deff both feeling insecure. Apparently She doesn't want to be downstairs or in her room on her own. She doesn't really want to talk about what's going on, she just does her own thing or talks about other stuff. Think she just wants to know she can talk if she wants to. She then demands a hot chocolate when she wants to go to bed, think I'm gonna set up my own business and start charging, this is turning into a nightly thing! :-p.

Like the idea of trying to get brother and sister to talk more, they may as well start to learn now for I go to uni. He might be very against the idea at first but I'll sell it to him the way you suggested.

Noted the royal 'we' and country pub. Ah I can sometimes see a little bit of childness in Tom, there are worse at my school from boys and some girls. I also find that if say things to him a certain way it sometimes works and he does think about it or acts on it. Ive told him he actually doesn't HAVE to work on Christmas Day or new year, he seems to think since he's said yes that he does. Why not just start after new year he's only going to be working there once a week and in the school hols. Getting ready to book the train tickets and waiting for him to say he's going xmas coz I can tell he's thinking about it.

He been really sweet, he brought me a watch as a surprise, had no idea, coz my old one litterally fell apart, and I haven't not worn one since I could like tell the time, ahh :-/. He's also thinks we go to my cousins birthday party this weekend *rolls eyes*, wasn't going to (my mum and the sibs aren't going) but he thinks it's a good opportunity to catch up with my aunt even though I'm seeing her towards the end of next week . I did want to take the sibs with us but he was like 'nooo, I have something planned afterwards, unless they stay the night at your aunts!' Right. The sibs might actually be up for this.

Ooo Holly was in a baaaaaad mood on Monday, and yesterday, today and probably for the rest of the week! I kinda knew she would be but I was more distracted with the parents. I understand why coz he didn't do it in the most tactful way. shes also annoyed because Meg went out after she left and met up with other friends and that I went bk to toms. And also because she had only received one text message and one missed call from me, I tried! I also wasn't really in the mood to just take this from her and just shut her down pretty damn quick. She didn't want anyone to leave with her, I made sure by asking her a few times if she wanted me to come bk and stay over but she said no each time ...just thought, did she think it was a best friends job not to take no for an answer??? if so oops :-/.
(Slightly awkward again) Meg wasn't about to tell her that she got a guys number when she went out :D, she's now worried when Holly does know this and I wasn't about to tell her that me and tom Erm (wouldn't normally put this but since we've talked about it :)) slept together and it didn't hurt that much all really! So pleased you told me that. It just kinda happened. Four words: Stupid smile on face... (happy)

Parents split up

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Good grief, I'm so sorry, Lily, this is the fifth time since last night I've tried to find enough time to sit down and respond and take you through the behind-scenes of what happened, but I've had so much to do I'm disappearing up my own spiral! The deck should become clear by tomorrow midday-ish, though. (PS: yes, there's still a point. Even more so, now. In other words, what you saw was a positive in disguise.)

Parents split up

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Uh oh, don't disappear! :-p

No worries, thanks for attempting to reply five times already :-)

A positive in disguise ... as in she felt bad and went to see him? Doesn't want anything to do with him at the moment.

Parents split up

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(Don't worry. With me, it's never a case of if and whether, just when.)

Should have said, HUGE positive in-disguise, actually...

This is such a common scenario, Lily - one estranged partner turning up unannounced (or some such) to find what they think is "the other wo/man" taking their place and doing THEIR job, and reacting like your mum did - that you'd think all these people everywhere got posted a script from the Post-Fight Separation Fairy the minute the front door goes 'slam!'. Seriously, if I had a pound every time, I'd be describing my personal, private, Caribbean island to you right now...

When you're in this stand-off/poker ("s/he who cares least, wins") situation, due to you and your spouse disagreeing over something 'major', neither of you willing or daring to back down, you feel you have to stay away from them in order not to lose your resolve, and to make them believe and sample what losing you for-good feels like ("do it or the puppy gets it!"). One cuddle or kiss and you might find yourself folding. Your resolve is kept strong by anger on two levels - your sense of injustice and, obviously, the emotional hurt of not being understood, not being catered to/the other person not wanting simply to do whatever it takes to make you smile ("you don't love me, if you loved me you'd X!"), etc..

When your dad offered to take your mum out somewhere nice on her birthday, he showed he was missing her badly and still felt she were 'his' thus so, jointly, were her 'important experiences'. Unfortunately, she hadn't calmed down as much as him (and obviously owed him a snub) so she automatically turned him down flat *and* ensured to include the dig of seemingly preferring to spend the day playing Mum. She 'said', I do not miss you, so there. It would have hurt his feelings A LOT.

What was your dad supposed to do - sit twiddling his thumbs all on his tod that weekend?

But the 'damage' was done...he'd issued the invite, it had all that time slowly but surely started working on her to make her miss him, *and* make her believe that he were ready to sit at the re-negotiations table.

It's easy to imagine your mum containing a side of herself that was angry and disgusted at her for melting so easily as she drove over to his place, and being 'so disgustingly, shamefully' helpless to resist. Plus, all this time she'll have been suspecting that his own "special friend" perhaps might be more than just a mate. But the not knowing would have been killing her, hence, found herself unable to stay resisting.

Remember how when you didn't have a clue but badly needed to know where you stood? As I say, that's the real killer, out of everything. So even a bad read-out (as includes any seeming explanation for previously uncharacteristic or hard-to-understand behaviour) is preferable to no read-out or holding out and biding your time for a positive one. This is what your mum THINKS she got, just because she saw the woman's car. Plus, she'll have already been mistrustful of and bitter at him, meaning, all too ready to assume only the worst from him.

Needing to slap her own face anyway for having found herself folding instead of remaining capable of staying angry enough to hold out for longer (because unless she's angry, dad manages to twist or charm her arm), there was her solution. (No, the timing, when you subtract the driving and fuming time, doesn't allow for a confrontation with anyone, it allows only for her having tried to tip-toe around the house to find a window to spy on them from, or from sat in her car if the environ/situation allowed it, or just having driven away and parked somewhere to try to work out what was actually going on (*fail*).) Anyway, only a rare few would have the chutzpah for confronting in that situation, but your mum's a soft touch type, sucker for guilt, sucker for soft-soaping ("everything alright?, I'm not being a neglectful mum, am I?, do you need me or need to talk to me about anything?, pant-pant-whittle-whittle-guilt-trip-guilt-trip?"). She NEEDS anger. Without it, when she loves someone, she'd find herself doing whatever THEY wanted or demanded, out of a need to please and make or keep happy.

Note, however... It was not his car at this woman's house, it was her car at HIS - ACTIONS! He was free that day, probably all weekend (married men of his age and type don't tend to have close friends of the sort they can summon at short notice or lean on or be miserable in the company of). Why wasn't he the one to have rung her and driven to hers (- if you're the one askin' then you're the one does the dancin') if he supposedly was so keen or needful of company and a shoulder? Actions!

[a] "Fancy a day out?" / "Nah...not in the mood [black cloud]" / "Oh, come on, it'll make you feel better, keep you from thinking about everything for five minutes" / "Nah..." / "Well, alright, how's about I come to you" / "Meh...alright then".

[b] 'B*tch! (sob)...Cow! (sob)...I'll get her, I'll teach *her* a lesson she'll never forget!' - he rings to summon his friend, hoping to "treat your mum mean to make her keen(er)" on the off-chance - no matter slim - that your mum might drive by, see the car, and, yes, confront (any contact with her is better than no contact...she'd basically *have to* talk to him), *and* feel like she were more in danger of losing him to A. N. Other than the other way around ('don't know waht you've got til it's gone/going').

(The amount of grown men I've had pacing up and down in front of me, going, 'What does it mean that she said this and why if, why not, where/what/when/who, what shall I do, shall I X or should I Y or-or, WHAAAAAAAAAH!....?!?! If they feel they're with someone 'safe' enough to show this 'embarrassing' side of themselves, THEY ARE WORSE THAN WOMEN! Trust me on that.)

[c] Nobody rang anybody, the woman either just decided unilaterally to stop in on him or literally were just passing, saw he was in/saw his car and thought she'd knock for a cuppa (she's in the same or similar boat, possibly? Probably).

I can't see B being your dad. If he were that way inclined, capable of being even remotely as petty-minded as B, he'd not have had the face to have offered to take your mum out on her birthday, think about it. So it's something like A or C.

So angry with him was she, and so needing to make her subconsciously deliberate, secret agenda-satisfying assumption true, that in that unthinking-unblinking mood in just that moment, she gave you kids JUST ENOUGH information to make you hate him too, to help her to hate and keep hating him (so that he ends up the one having to fold and sacrifice his standpoint). It's called, summoning the troops. But it was obviously half-hearted because, look how vague and minimalist she ended up being. She dangled the were supposed to follow her and winkle it out of her. She's 'saying' HELP, I CAN'T DO THIS ON MY OWN.

Your mum is obviously a 'What's wrong?' / '[sniff] Nothing?!' / 'No, clearly there is - tell me!' / 'Well if YOU don't know then I'M not going to tell you?!' merchant. I.e. under-assertive and lacking self-confidence.

His invitation was just that bit too soon for her, she isn't capable of going from anger, resentment, bitterness and hatred back to clinking glasses and smiling loving smiles over a restaurant table (so to speak). He should have given her a good two weeks' notice *or* (Pretty Woman's Edward), not taken No for his first answer). That he didn't shows he was just as hurt as her thus lacking the confidence, strength and basically b*lls to persuade round.

But all you have to pay any attention to are these facts:
- Your dad PATENTLY OBVIOUSLY badly misses his lover, this always made worse whenever any kind of anniversary looms, and obviously wanted an opportunity to try to get back into the Love Boat with her (as well as to see if she were ready to see his POV).
- Your mum PATENTLY OBVIOUSLY badly misses her lover,...(ditto).

This "I love you / No, wait - I love you not (ya basstd)" rollercoastering out of synch is completely and utterly typical.

COUNSELLOR! get their minds onto the exact same page and stop this all-too-typical 'weathervane couple'-ing (where dad's momentarily sunny while mum's rainy and then (due to it) dad rainy when mum's regained momentary sunniness....and repeat, repeat, repeat). Otherwise, as you see, she's apt to turn HIM rainy, and vice versa, meaning, progress back to joint, in-synch sunniness will take longer.

I know WHY neither of them can face the thought of being sat in front of an expert. Your dad's a GP, people need HIM, the expert, not the other way round. Your mum's a teacher, people need HER (etc.). Both have too much arrogance and false pride to put themselves into the Needy & Vulnerable - *Non-Expert* - position.

Now you appreciate why kids all over the world are always busy, desperately trying to manipulate and meddle in their parents' estrangement, telling one parent one thing and the other another or getting into trouble so that they parents have to unite, etc., etc. They've not lived long enough to have had their visions fogged up at the hands of other people-based experiences and people-based rules, No-nos, fallacies, etc. yet perfectly clever enough to see through the detritus to the oh-so-simple remedy. In fact, un-bogged-down kids see straighter than adults.

But, after all this mutual starvation and alienation, you imagine the size of the make-up cuddles (cough!) etc. Their glue-based, elastic umbilicus (chemistry and attachment to-date) is getting stretched, thus tested out, majorly. If their chemistry is strong enough - i.e. if the Love Heroin powerful and addictive enough - no amount of stretching will snap it and sooner or later the tension will have it flinging them back together again (and *already* we can see how BAD at staying away from one another they are). Plus, it doesn't matter if THEIR RELATIONSHIP dies. Because there is nothing in the world to stop them from starting a new & improved one (*they* are not the relationship, their collective interactional experiences are). Indeed, sometimes you NEED to starve and be starved of Love Food. Because then you cease being petty about things like refusing to eat the bread just because it doesn't have unsalted rather than salted butter on it. By then, all that matters is getting bread down your neck, and quick.

They're neither eating each other enough nor abstaining from nibbling enough. They don't DARE not have ongoing contact by making this a No or Zero Contact separation (in case the other meanwhile starts to get over them), despite NC or ZC would avoid these extra, messy, emotional sheets from constantly burying the genuinely important sheets further and further down the in-tray pile.

In actual fact, here's what happens with types like your dad in his (demonstrated) mindset if they even TRY to have any sort of interaction of a romantic nature with another woman, whether he makes a move on her or (more likely) she on him: She doesn't look like her, feel like her, smell like her, sound or move like her, she's not the same build or height so feels wrong when trying to hug,...her hair's all wrong (feels too fine and strange under the hand), she doesn't snog remotely like her, etc., etc., etc..... All it achieves is to turn you RIGHT off and make you miss your lover EVEN WORSE THAN BEFORE, meaning, you can no longer tolerate having the poor substitute, she who carries a neon sign above her head that reads, "I'M NOT HER!", around. And this is why males in separation stage are notorious for the SEEMING 'wham, bam, thank-you ma'am!' treatment. (He *was* into you - or thought he was - but then got undeniable, un-ignorable confirmation that you're NOT HER, NOT EVEN REMOTELY SIMILAR ENOUGH - "bleugh, get away from me, don't even try to talk to me any more, PLEASE!".)


Your mum misses your dad and is VERY hungry for normal cuddles and contact with him as much as he, her, but, (climate of paranoia) THINKING she's secretly the only one AND still being too primed to paint him the devil and expect yet more upsetting/insulting acts, has LEAPT on the great excuse to REFUSE TO FOLD YET.

Even if that woman had rung or surprised him by just turning up - *anything* - even some woman going yadder-yadder-yadder at him - would have been preferable to being forced to sit around and dwell on how miserable and disappointed mum had just made him by refusing to honour or confirm his status in her heart by wanting only him on her birthday weekend, by not being seen to be INCAPABLE of not wanting to be with him and only him on her birthday of all days.

Your mum is definitely the one who's been more angry at your dad than vice-versa. Maybe on that afternoon she'd been the one to say GET OUT!, expecting him not to believe she genuinely meant it and/or to fight it/refuse to go, but he, now emotionally flooded by the "drama", leapt gratefully onto the excuse to run away from the argument (making things worse) and possibly wanted to hold himself to ransom, believing it'd work on normally Soft-Touch Her. And now your mum - KNOWING she's the type too easily folds every time - is the one who's leapt gratefully to the wrong conclusion in order to fashion for herself a Poker Face aid.

But, like I said, counsellor no counsellor (we didn't always have counsellors, remember, yet strangely didn't die out as a specie because of it ;-)...and counsellors can only speed up the train bound for whatever terminus is inevitable and always was, anyway) - if their glue-based elastic is strong enough, it matters not WHAT they do, WHAT they say, WHEN they say/do it or fail to, WHAT they think or don't think or imagine or feel (they feel), i.e. this secretly just relationship-re-testing process (or in their case, the first-ever test). They'll find themselves being richochet-ed back together anyway whether they bloody like it or not.

He couldn't abide not getting to spend her birthday with her, she couldn't abide not spending her birthday with him. They BOTH fell pathetically - PATHETICALLY! - at the very first, not even sizeable, hurdle, they are BOTH just as weak as the other when it comes to, in the face of the one they absolutely adore the very bones of - CASE CLOSED! It's a 'teenage' fight that got shelved but now insists on finally being had. AND THAT'S ALL. Now it's just a case of wondering *When* - not If - repeat, WHEN they finally make up and get back together.

FYI, Mr S and I both "broke up" in our fourth year of marriage (he flounced back to France).

PFF, broke-up my a*se. Why not? BECAUSE THE CHEMICAL UMBILICUS WAS JUST TOO STRONG FOR US AND OUR STUPID CONSCIOUS NEEDS/WANTS/IDEAS, our inner animals didn't give a SHITE for what WE thought we thought, they had their own ideas... and what they say - in their own, exclusive arena and business in which they are head honchos - goes. So we had no choice but to get back together in order to continue jacking-up (thank eff), meaning, someone was BOUND to crack at some point ("gear, gear, need my precious gear!!!"). Just so happens that Mr S has less patience and tenacity/stubbornness than me (not least because in this case he was too obviously the one in the wrong)...just different timings. But, really, the fight was about EFF ALL!

If your inner animals are besotted with each other then you're going along for the ride whether you bloody like it or not, BER-BOM! So you may as well Like and try to always make Like smoothly do-able. :-)

But for now, people in this situation - ALL people, I should add - are thick as pig sh*t by whatever varying degrees, as good at just being calmly open, honest and forthright as two chimpanzees with live fireworks up their a*ses ready to go off and fingers over the nuclear buttons (albeit not usually stupid enough to actually press them), meaning, having to patiently wait until they 'UN-thick' again. And your dad is male-typically lacking in patience. There again, birthdays don't tend to cater to personal, petty schedules, do they.


Anyway, back to you. By having divulged that angry information your mother has given you the right AND the Green Light (without having to lose face by asking you, her own daughter over whom she *should* be at all times 'superior' to, nicely and beseechingly) to schedule a serious sit-down talk with her, just you and she, wherein you say, 'ENOUGH, mother! I'm not stupid, I'm these days a young WOMAN [you are] in a serious relationship-with-mileage of my own [which proves it], in case you hadn't noticed. Tell me EVERYTHING that's going on between you and dad and let's see if two heads are better than one ("duh?") when it comes to finding any number of solutions, OR just tell me out of recognition of the fact you've now made it impossible to claim I don't have the right to know what's what. I GET that you and dad are more upset with one another than you've ever been in your lives, but that doesn't give you the license to take me, blister and bother down WITH you'.

Just don't take No for an answer, Lily. Get bossy and motherly, REALLY slam your foot down. That's what she wants (albeit she'll do a bloody good of pretending not for the first however many minutes or hours). That, after all, what she was under-the-tale 'asking' for when she ranted and *highly uncharacteristically* (clue!) expleted in front of you.

(I'll address your other, separate news in a separate post - let's try to keep your business and your parents business as two distinct topics, post-wise, for now to save mess and confusion. It'll have to be later on today, though so - as per, bear with...)

Parents split up

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If your dad makes any squirming noises, just tell him, 'you NEED, repeat, NEEEEEED-uh!, to watch this, trust me on that!'. That'll get him intrigued to know what you're talking about, enough to cooperate, eh. And it's true. He needs to learn that if you want to disarm and conquer a woman then you have to WIN her over - woo her silly - even in the face of EVEN DESPERATE attempts to resist. Sure, you can piss her off or make her feel jealous and insulted so that she does all the work or a large portion of it. But all that summons is her EGO, provoked into wanting to do battle and wipe the floor with yours (and you wouldn't want a woman like that, anyway).

Cue your 40s and 50s Black & White movies...

"Shut up aind KISS meh, Emileh!"
"Nair, Quentin, storp eart, stop eart at WUNCE, Ey tell hyo!"
"YAIRS, Emileh, YAIRS!"
"NAIR, Quentin, NAIR!.....AIR!!!..........Ohhhh....."
Quentin's just bent her over backwards and snogged her hard, anyway...whereupon Emily's dunfor, innit, andja dun't 'ear anuvver peep aatov'er and her ( now) silly grin. INNIT.

*Some* cliches are bang-on true (because this aspect's wiring is still living in the dark ages)! And that 'not taking No', incidentally, is what Mr S always did (because, to be honest, at first, having come home from Espana and had time to adjust and slip back into my normal routine and back down to earth (i.e. back into my usual commitment-leeriness), I was a bit daunted by this hell-bent, over-passionate THING advancing on me the whole time so was trying to keep him somewhat at arm's length to avoid his grabby grasp for ages. (Trust me, Mr S takes all the credit for the fact we didn't stop at holiday romance stage.) I'm sure if Mr S can 'slay' me then, from what I've seen, someone mild-mannered and keen to please like your mother, won't be too difficult. If done right.

Your dad, on the other hand, went, 'Fancy coming out for your birthday?', and your mum went, 'NO THANK-YOUP! [hoity sniff] But if you want to do something NICE for me on my birthday, then... yadder-yadder', and he went, 'Oh.... okayyyyy, theeeen'.

Technical Merit: 4/10
Artistic Impression: 1/10 (and don't give up yer day job).

Sorry "your dad", but, there you have it.

OR you could say, 'you OWE ME - for embarrassing Tom and I last week!'.

Or, another option, say to him, 'You won mum back yet, have ya? NO YOU HAVEN'T so - what do YOU know!'

BASICALLY, Romance, particularly the unstoppably passionate kind, is porn of the intellectual variety....going through the Brain Door (that being The biggest sexual organ we own).


Sister noted. She's clearly enjoying the mothering. And clearly brother's cotton-ed on to their being mothering in the offing so he's trying to subtly-manly get in on the act ("just popping in, don't mind me").


Tom thinking about it, noted. That's the ticket! (or one of them) - plant seed, retreat....and wait until the bloke takes 100% credit as if it'd been all his own idea all along, LOL.

Tom's *always* sweet, whaddayatalkinabout! :-) What sort of watch? PS: 'something planned'. Gosh, we can't for the life of us think what he could MEAN! LOL

Glad it didn't hurt. Knew it wouldn't. After all, we're not still back in the age where women rode side-saddle or did nothing more active than needlepoint, eh, so - hymen schmymen! The first attempt is always a bit strange but the second time onwards starts increasingly (possibly immediately) WOAH! The more practise, the better it gets because it follows the exact same principle as learning to dance ballroom a deux. So if you (and he) were left with stupid smiles on your faces ALREADY, then, CRIKEY - next time your socks might actually get blown off! :-) :-) These days, what with years of practise and strength of feelings getting MORE Honeymoon as time marches on, instead of less (diff that makes all the diff in terms of knowing you're with the oh-so-right person), we've gone through the self-penned labels, respectively, thus:

Amazing Sex.
Woah! Sex.
Mountaintop Sex.
Oh-my-god-there-IS-a-god! Sex.
Complete Mindf**k Sex.
Still calling this 'sex' is like calling Jesus some bloke in sandals! sex.
Should we worry about whether it's so good our hearts could suddenly give out? sex. (Answer: who gives one, what a lovely way to go! LOL)


Whether it's your job as best friend to not take No for an answer is up to you, really, and whether you think she's worth the effort of 'taking control' of her too. But as it sounds like Tom's busy taking care of YOU then you should have some time and energy spare? Although, saying that, blister and bother should ideally be first in the queue.

(Think that covers everything for now? RSvP, you grinning idiot, you, LOL.


PS: And now you can do me a favour (if you can?): What do women round about your age all want at the mo, can you give me some ideas (it's for son's gf and I haven't got a pigging clue because I used all my best ideas for her birthday)?

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Just quickly, for your sons gf, have a look at the Amazon Dot its like £50 . It might not be her thing, but a few friends have got one. I got the Amazon Echo for my bday, think the only difference is price and size coz of the speaker from my aunt and I love it coz I can listen to audio books (got to buy them), play music and controls the lighting in my room, does all sorts.

My watch (if that's why you were asking) is a swatch watch but tom has a problem with it because it 'ticks too loudly' ...but that might just be him being weird coz it doesn't bother me :-P.

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An attention-seeking watch, eh? LOL Well, you'd think, knowing loud ticking gets on his nerves, he'd have examined the watch before buying or thought to check out that aspect specifically, shouldn't he.

Anyway, cheers for the tip!

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Ha- yes he should of done and he's just gonna have to it up with it!

Parents- ok thanks, all makes a lot of sense, didn't realise this was all really common, thought it was just my parents
so it was really reassuring.

I don't think my mum would of gone confronted them either, sometimes she surprise me, but I think she would of just turned the car around and assumed the worst!

Deffinately agree with the reason why they wont make the steps to go to counselling coz they have jobs where people need them, I can see my dad thinking this more...think they need to get over themselves to be honest.

So my mum wants me to take some sort of control and to ask her what's going on ? ok I be bossy and put my foot down, can be quite articulate once I get going :D. I'm not sure how much she'll tell me, what do I do then ? Insist on counselling and make sure they both follow it through?

Only thing is my sis really pushed the boundaries (again) this weekend with my mum this time, not sure what she did yet but she managed to get herself grounded all weekend. No staying at my aunt for her! My mum has already been a bit snappy coz of last week, so and whatever sis has done has raised her stress levels even more but that might just be because no ones talking to her about this, I'm guessing! Was worried about it getting turning into an argument or one of us getting upset (more likely her) but Im just gonna do it today and see.

Will make sure my dad and I watch pretty women over xmas partly coz I will look forward to using one of those above lines on him and just watching his expression on his face :-) . With him do I just keep encouraging him to keep trying?

Parents split up

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Hey Lils,

Sorry I missed you (was already over-busy and now suddenly it's (bah humbug) Xmas!). Did you have the talk with your mum in the end? Or manage to get dad to watch PW with you? How did both go?

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Hey, Yeah spoke to my mum on Monday and I have answers! Just trying to remember everything coz it took like 3 (!) hours. once she started she didn't stop and told me nearly everything... I'm sure she held back on some things.

But to start with, omg, she put up a really good fight, like you she might, about talking to me about this. I think she gave me every crap excuse she could think of: 'I'm too tired to discuss this", "this is between me and your dad!' and 'let's not talk about this now, with Christmas just round the corner, it's not a nice topic, you don't want to hear about it', (Really, I do that's why I'm asking duh) were just some of them.
She even tried to get angry with me, well her version of getting angry, didn't exactly faze me. Nice try mother, didn't work and I stood my ground and got bossy :), tried to be sympathetic too coz there were bits where got got a bit upset and I didn't quite know what to say.

Eventually, she cracked and knew I wasn't going to take no for an answer or leave her alone. More so when I explained to her just how much the sibs and I are getting more and more affected by what's going on (and that we've been more then patient) and not knowing any thing was unfair. plus the panic attacks I sometimes get, she didn't know about them and she realised she didn't have much of a choice, unless she wanted us to carry on feeling the way we feel!

Anyways, your guess was right, they were arguing about work. My dads work.

My dad got approached by a private hospital and got offered a job. It's more hours, more working nights too but also this hospital is quite far away from home, which meant he would be away working all week and some weekends too. My mum wasn't too happy about this and she said made it very clear at the time when he first told her about it, but my dad still went and met these people and had meetings and stuff with them. Apparently There was no point in telling me or sibs coz it would of taken a few months to sort out.

So when they split up, they were obviously discussing this and it turned into a really big argument. my mum basically told him she didn't want him to take it and it would really put a strain on their marriage because he'd be away all the time and when he was home he'd be tired and grumpy ) and it wouldn't be fair on any of us. Also their future plans were, when(if) the sibs go to uni, thats when they were planning to do some travelling and relax a bit more and she couldn't see any of that happening. All she could see was her being on her own. They also argued about a load of other things too that my mum said they should of argued about when it happened but they left a lot of things unsolved.

I'm slightly confused because he hates change, he avoids it, just him moving out was enough for him, he seriously didn't know what to do with himself. But maybe if he knew had his family home to come back too, that might of been different.

She said my dads response to what she said was that she was being really unfair and he expected her to be more supportive to which my mum pointed out that she had supported him through EVERYTHING. she has, he used to work in hospitals in London before he joined the surgery he works at now - to him building a house, apparently that was really stressful too. Also it was around the time my mum had also got her new job and she was a bit like where's my support?! I can kinda picture the argument and what they said to each other.

obviously he hasn't taken the job (yet) but the offer is apparently still open.

Annnnnd This is the bit I don't like - my dads 'friend' is someone who he went to medical school with, he's always kept in contact with her. My mum knows of her. Shes like a consultant at this hospital. my mum totally convinced she has a thing for him, ew gross, and she's played a part in him getting offered a job and that she's been encouraging him to take it and she clearly doesn't seem to give a crap that he has a wife and kids.

She's also 100% certain there is also something going on between them :-/, not before but now which is why she was so angry a few Sundays ago. I asked her what proof she had and she doesn't have any other then a gut feeling and she lives far away so when she visits him where does she stay? Surprisingly there are things called hotels! But she's adamant and didn't take in any thing i said.
But from what you said above about what my dad thoughts would be like in a new relationship, I'm not convinced. Also he wanted to draw a line under everything at one point.

She also clarified to me her friend is just a friend he's recently split up with his wife and is 'too confused' to be in any kind of relationship and they are just supportive to each other.

My main reaction was so what are you both going to do about it?! Counselling? And she was like 'hmm maybe' and I was like 'no, you BOTH need to go, like you said you would AGES ago'. So I've been on her case and made sure she's looking into it, otherwise I'm worried, my dad will take this job and she will be left on her own. Why are they sitting on their bums doing f all? Grr :-|

But after my mum was quite grateful I made her sit down and tell me, she looks better and says she feel better. I think I should become like an interrogator (I wasn't that bad) or something :D .

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Air, I say...! It wasn't a guess (I don't do stabs in the dark), it was a concerted calculation :-p. But I'll let you off and put it down to mere semantics, LOL.

Well done you for having got her to finally confide in you (you're not a kid, eh - you've proved you were 'born 40' since the start of this thread)!

"which meant he would be away working all week and some weekends too."

Er- NO!!! If he wanted to have any part of a singleton's lifestyle, replete with unilateral decision-making and action-taking, he shouldn't have got married and made a family - BER-BOM! So I'm not surprised mum wasn't too happy (understatement!).

"but my dad still went and met these people and had meetings and stuff with them."

He didn't?! The arrogant, pompous s*d! And 'strain on their marriage' is likewise a huge under-statement, not to mention the sizeably smashed trust from having broken a firm promise and plan over something hugely fundamental (the goal to kick back and travel). IT COULD KILL IT. And it would also create conditions that would see him ripe for falling prey to an 'accidental' affair (not with said friend, though)! (Oh, god, some men are so bloody stupid, aren't they? Makes you wonder where their brains are!)

Well, in that case - GO MUM, YOU GIVE HIM HELL, LUV!!!!

Hates change. Hmm... Here we go with the 'got to ask'-ing: He isn't trying to follow someone to their new place of work, is he?

SHE'S being really unfair? WTF?! She's not the one who's trying to move the giant goalposts!

"I can kinda picture the argument and what they said to each other."

Yeah, me too.

Well, it's quite simple. He's married with a family. As such, 'boardroom-wise', he's a member of a team of two (or three now you're an adult, albeit junior one). Nothing major can be changed without a genuinely unanimous vote. Those are the rules of being a spouse, take it or leave it, is his only choice.

But this female friend is not a 'thing', not for him. He proved that when instead of marrying her he married your mum. I mean - all that time and he's never bitten? Ber-bom! (again). Sure, he might like the ego-boost he gains from suspecting she holds a candle to him, newly/still. But other than that, he's just pulling her in or letting her pull herself in because she works beautifully as a frightener and leverage aid (do it or the puppy goes to another home!). He's using her, in other words. *That's* all that's 'going on between them' (from her side only).

No, if he were thinking of having an affair, it would far more likely be a new woman, so - good, then - no affair, strike again from the record, but in its place add "U-see-eer! :-p".

Mum is not 'certain' whatsoever, it's not even gut instinct. It's just her fear - which dad is merrily feeding into while it serves his purposes for gaining a higher professional status and pay packet (and other on). I seriously doubt whether he even has had *any* actual plans to take it. *I* think he's been wanting a bargaining tool (for forcing a change in certain habits and dynamics) for years, now...and here it is, what a beaut. So has your mum, but your dad's reached his limit first, hence... He LETS your mum be aware of this female threat, he DOESN'T reassure her (despite he could), and meanwhile........hasn't accepted the job despite the offer is cast-iron there and drumming its fingernails. FUNNY, THAT. I repeat: just something to hold over your mum in order to finally make Mrs Stuck-in-the-mud have to make changes.

Well, he needs to be a little more understanding, doesn't he. She's largely been in stasis all this time, what with having three, ever-growing, ever-changing mini-mes to constantly be distracted by. But now "her turn" to have a bit of me-me fun is looming, and - BAM! - dad starts threatening to take it away from her. But he's not going to make the threat real because otherwise it'd defeat his far simpler objective - as I say, to bring about a major renegotiation session. That's why they're 'sitting on their bums'. It's like I said - disagreement...unable to reach a new agreement (yet)...not enough patience to let the process unfold and provide a solution naturally...enter control-freakery force-age. Yeah, OH YEAH, he's DEFINITELY a bit Higher Functioning Aspergic. And so's your mum ("dunlike chaaaange!"'s a HUGE AS trait, albeit isn't actually a problem with 'change', more inability to cope with the transition part, the 'crossing over' the bridge bit...once they're across, they're fine, even better than your NTs at adapting).

I think you should become a counsellor-come-life coach. Prescriptive type, obviously. Control-freaks a speciality (cost £1k/hour LOL). ;-)

Are you now going to talk to your dad? Do pass on my above sentiments, won'tcha. ;-)

But here's the good news: Aspies are limpets, it's SUPREMELY difficult to get them to detach from their chosen rock. But if forced to attach to a new one (e.g. tsunami wave) - SSSSSSLUP! all over again. Those two aren't going to be detaching or splitting up in any serious way any time soon, Lils, this *is* just a disagreement that's jumped gratefully into the 'need to argue properly' tray. And that's another of my famous 'guesses' ;-D.

You can relax, now, and have a happy crimbo. :-)

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PS: You were right... I can see your dad isn't narcissistic any more than your mum. *But* he's not as mentally strong as your mum (gosh, how rare, LOL) and so where she's got COMPLETELY over her however much narc parent and their repeated, subliminally-affecting demonstrations, he hasn't - in terms of, whenever he feels powerless and lacking bargaining power (cos you're mum's a limpet when it comes to stubbornness as well), he lowers himself to bringing out his parents' toolbelt, including, this case, emotional blackmailing and manipulation tactics. Edit: UNFAIR emotional blackmailing and manipulation habits (after all, if someone manipulates you to success, having your interests firmly in mind, you're happy and grateful the minute you realise, aren't you, not miffed or cheated-feeling).

So I'm now here: mum - degree of HF AS; dad - similar degree of HF AS but still with second-hand NPD habits too much mentally to-hand when desperate and helpless.

He needs to cut that RIGHT out and grow a backbone, because... Aspies and Narcs are basically Superman versus Lex Luther, both somewhat psychopathic, but the Aspie 'evil for the power of good/for all' versus the NPDs 'evil for the power of bad aka "me-me-me"'. They can get on quite well when it's sunny, but - cloud and rain? STAND WELL BACK, the NPD is going to "DIIIIIIIE". And that's because an Aspie will fight to the death for TRUTH whereas the NPD will fight to THEIR death for lies - and much sooner. Because nobody's inner wisdom would let their host die for no reason. So put it this way: an Aspie will argue until the NPD goes Blue in the face.

Mum's won before she's even started. QUITE RIGHT TOO!

He's showing a weakness, a childish sliver that's somewhat stunted, if he'd allow himself to 'be' whichever of his parents just because he can't be bothered to think things through better and/or would rather shove things under the rug 'for another time', just because he's an emotional lightweight compared to her, brain unable to tolerate it. *He* needs to learn better conflict resolution skills, whereby the only tool or weapon he needs is HIS OWN BRAIN.

*Definitely* get him to watch PW! You never know, he might experience an epiphany and cease behaving like a tw*t.

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Oh, and I'll bet you any money you like that it was your *dad's* idea to 'keep it between ourselves'. Yeah. It's called, she's a tough enough adversary without her having a band of troops so I'd better erect a firm barrier in front of the troops shop.

Didn't work, did it (only truth, rightfulness and honesty works), dad's going DOOOOWN!

Oh, and, be prepared for mum to start leaning on and confiding in you more and more, now. You might have to supervise and temper her in that regard, in case she in her upset doesn't have her gauges working normally, but other than that, you'll find it a lot more relaxing than remaining in that horrid dark. The other up-side is that you and mam will end up bestest of friends and confidants after this....which, forgive me for saying but I couldn't help notice, was obviously missing before now.

So - lots of DeLuxe Lemonade, and huge improvements to the old Lemonade, to come.

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Oops, forgot to say, we did watch pretty women. My dad did try to get out of it, so I told him he needed to watch it and he owed me for embarrassing me and tom. I don't think he's had an epiphany, yet or made him look at his tw*t-ish behaviour. I liked it :-D.

nice not being in the dark anymore, feel more relaxed. Yeah I did talk to my dad, I wanted him to know, I know what's going on and he look a bit shocked when I told him. Dunno how long he thought it could go on for and yeah it probably was his idea to keep it all quiet.
Didn't go very well though, He really p*ssed me off, so I walked out and went home, before I called him the all names that were in my head! Not great, I know but I think I was angry with him before I even saw him. I also wanted some reassurance from him and to tell me he wasn't going anywhere But he acted like it was no big deal and said in the new year he's meeting to these people at the hospital and he is really considering taking the job. He also said lots of families have one parent who works away and he'd be home most weekends...most weekend, aint good enough! Definitely Lost his brain, self centred g*t.
The sibs now have an idea and my mum has also told my aunt what's going and she was like 'wtf?! Give me his address, I have a xmas present for him' ...don't doubt for a second she will go round and have words , unleash the aunt on dad :).

Yeah did feel quite disconnected from my mum and we weren't really talking much or as close as we were. But things are already going back to normal, and she's talking to me more. she's also driving me part of the way to Cornwall next week coz I 'really helped her' . she's also taking the sibs away for a few days too aunt so dad will be on his own.

Tom decided to go to Cornwall for xmas (phew!) of course he thought it was all his idea, he also has man flu but mainly because he realised his mum was really not happy. He went on wed miss him, but don't miss his moaning "I'm sooooooo ill' :-P, hopefully better when I see him next week.

Quite like the idea of being a counsellor, kinda felt like that's what I was doing with my mum but was hard work! life coach similar?

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Doesn't matter what he thinks did or didn't take/have an effect on his attitude, on the conscious level. It still all went in. And there it sits, doing it's thing (click-whirr-click)... Just watch that space.

(Should mention at this point while I remember: I forgot to add up there that my suspecting your mum and dad are however much Aspie is just that - a suspicion...based on my having spotted more than three undeniably major symptoms, courtesy of yourself and what you've reported. It's not possible to actually diagnose over the ether, second-hand at that, so please don't take it as read, just conjecture.)

Glad you confronted your dad over what you now know. It really wasn't fair or the right thing, he and your mum having inconsiderately let slip just enough signs and information to keep you awake at night (Naughty Chair for them). Ignorance may be bliss but as you now know, ignorance in the face of intriguing, negative crumbs - dropped accidentally at that - drive you and your imagination haywire and place you in the victim position. You were entitled to be given the rest of the puzzle pieces, in other words, something not up for any reasonable, rational debate. Why - did he try? Is that why you ended up walking out in disgust?

I don't think he genuinely aims to take that job. But if he were to tell YOU that then you'd be bound to reassure mum...and THEN where would be his 'brilliant' leverage for getting her to back down on whatever it is he thinks she should back down on? Me, I suspect he's doing what *all* men who find their wives a bit too intimidating do: You don't act like you're in-love with me any more so I'm going to push a major button and see whether and what sort of fuss you make - the bigger the fuss, the more reassurance that I'm wrong and you *are* still fruit-loopy over me underneath all the life crud. Granted, some men resort to this after having tried too many times to get a straight answer or demonstration that doesn't then only disappear all over again only a few days or weeks after - in which case, fair enough (- if you're not being given information to which you're entitled in order to emotionally protect yourself (every human's right) because the other lover seems to have ceased doing that mutual duty, then, you're entitled to help yourself in whatever way you can so's not to send yourself crazy -)...but some can't be a*sed/don't have the time and energy to do it bit-by-bit in increments and jump straight to major manipulation. So I think he's just TAUNTING your mother with the possibility, as in, 'Let me see you care enough about me and our marriage to kick up a sustained fuss'. In OTHER words: Don't tell me, show me - I want to see you fight for me!

And anyway (were it pertinent) - those families he cites as 'examples' are the ones that tend to disintegrate (when, not if). Fires have to be fed DAILY in order not to die down or out, not once per week. That simple. He'd be giving his marriage and normal family life a death sentance. But I'm sure he knows that ('no big deal', he trying to make out he's mentally deficient? Clearly!) and I'm sure it's just a case of 'can't be seen to (cough!) back down until given the motivation to' and his now seeing you as go-between messenger whom likewise must now be fed propaganda.

Think about it, if he told you he wasn't serious but was trying to play your mum, you'd be straight round to tell her because it were the only right thing to do. So he's only telling you what it serves him to have you know.

Put it this way Lils: if this career move so important and so desired and so there for the taking - surely lately was the perfect time to accept it or even start it? So - GOTTIM. He's fibbing. Not about the offer being real but about his considering it seriously. Semi-fibbing, a White lie, I should say, but where overall he could still claim he were telling the truth (clean conscience). But that is NOT the way to get what you want or need from a partner because even if it works short-term, it would cause MAJOR, lasting resentment which would start a whole run of problems of its own (duuuuh!). Your dad is basically emotionally NOT VERY CLEVER.

Ha-ha - unleash the hounds! (- Auntie) :-D Gimmie her address and I'll happily go with her! LOL (Joking, sadly.)

"she's also driving me part of the way to Cornwall next week coz I 'really helped her' ."

Now there you go in terms of seeing the size of her gratitude! :-)

Let's hope Auntie can talk him into dropping his silly and very destructive ruse.

Tom's probably caught man flu BECAUSE he's been seeing how much he upset his mum. Think about it - any bloke who'd want you to so soon meet his mum and family (mum, really, because she's the person and relationships expert) must be pretty damn close, normally, with discord and falling out of favour so rare that it would hit him *very* hard - HENCE, worrying leading to a compromised immunity. But it's great to know he's got such an active conscience...that's what you want in a bloke (TICK!).

You could be a counsellor *and* life-coach, all at once. It'd just be about helping the person to identify what the root problem or bundle of problems were and then running through all the practical ways in which to achieve any then obvious solutions, thereby not sending the person away again half-baked. After all, it's no good a person knowing what's up with them if they don't know how to put paid to it, is there. Preparation is useless without application or the means to apply. Plus, some people seek therapy just to arm themselves with ready excuses. You know the type, 'Oh, sorry, I do know I'm like that and I do know it makes me a terrible person, boo-hoo' (beating themselves up verbally in front of you)...and nothing else - no, 'So I'll stop by making x y and z changes'. They just carry on transgressing with - now that you, the 'victim' know they have that weakness or inadequacy - YOUR ASSUMED BLESSING OR EVEN COMPLICIT-NESS. Nope - no excuses...Money where mouth was or EFF OFF WASTING MINE AND EVERYONE ELSE'S TIME (lol).

Anyway, if I don't get to speak to you for a few days ("bah humbug") - have a lovely Humbug! :-)

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Have a good xmas toooo

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Ok, got it on the aspie thing, although I'm sure my dad is. Either that or he's just really weird/odd.

Yeah definitely naughty chair for both of them, there were quite a few sleepless nights!

I hope my dad is just taunting and wanting a reaction from my mum . Feels like some sort of weird game.

No, my dad didn't even try to give me (and still hasn't) any reassurance or anything else. It was 'Poor me' and he was all depressive and defensive. He was saying stuff like 'I tried on her birthday' , 'what does it matter anyway, your mum doesn't care anymore', which felt more like a threat that he was going to take the job and I was a bit like you have kids too by the way.
Then he used the example of Tom's dad (and lots of other families) work away from home all week, which I might of been a little over sensitive about him saying that, but I didn't like that he used my boyfriends family as an example when he doesn't even know them or never met them! :-I. And he's not going to ...not for a loonnnnng time! Obviously he's questioned Tom on what his parents do for a living - won't be leaving them alone together again god knows what else he's asked. Tom's dad does work away in the week, I think he always has done but he's retiring next year and from what I can his parents are happy, where as mine obviously aren't at the moment, plus toms parents are older. Bit of a difference.
when I mentioned counselling to him he was like 'I never said I'd actually go', er yes you did! definitely in disgust before we got into an argument which is never a good thing...both red heads, we clash when we argue :p but couldnt get him to Listen like with my mum. Yeah emotionally thick.

My dad didn't like it that I went home. I didn't see him again till xmas day and there was tension between us but I ignored it. I made sure the sibs and I were there for the morning so we had the rest of the day with my mum and aunt. Then on Boxing Day he was a miserable sh*t, which wasn't fun, and he was just snappy, when I got home I kinda went and hid in my room feeling bit upset that was until my aunt came and found me and after a chat she dragged me back down stairs again and we got drunk, such a bad influence!

Pit bull unleashed :) ( she promised my sister she wasn't going to shout at him or hit him ha) My aunt went to speak to my dad today but she came back more frustrated then when she left. She thinks a few days on his own as of tomorrow (or today) without all of us away give him time to think.

Ah that makes sense about Tom! really didn't want anymore tension, which there would of been if he didn't go! Feeling a bit nervous again coz I'm spending nearly a week with his family and there are cousins and grandparents to meet, ah. He went surfing on xmas day whilst he was still ill *rolls eyes* apparently it's tradition hmm.

there is a counselling course (for beginners) starting at a college nearby which I think I might do as long as there is no age limit just to see if I like it I'm never too sure on giving good advice so I wanna learn.

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Thank god for your auntie, she's a really cool lady by the copious sounds of it! And as per, I agree with her. It's no good trying to reason with a proud man who's already hugely on the defensive and feeling like no-one understands him (which clearly he is if even Auntie can't for once get any sense or cooperation out of him).

It still all goes in, though, Lils, it still all goes in (some men are just s.............................l...............................ow...Zzzzz).

Yeah, we do understand him, it's HE whom evidently doesn't understand...that being a good husband and father (and no doubt worrying about his and mum's retirements, including the funding for said eventual travelling abroad...or cocoa) takes a lot more than putting bigger and better food on the table and the surplus in the fridge ready for old age (so to speak), you have to be interacting and investing meanwhile to boot. Otherwise you'll just end up providing for people who no longer see any reason to continue eating from your table to begin with, thus is a wholly self-defeating object, bit like getting all spruced for a hot date before munching on a whole bulb of garlic (I mean, I know preparation is 'everything', but - NOT LITERALLY!). Neither is there any point to making just one of her birthdays pleasing and memorable if the rest of the time afterwards would be full of even inadvertent neglect.

The truth is, any relationship lasts ONE DAY. Even without our realising it, every single morning that we awaken we make the subconscious but deep decision to start the imperceptibly upgraded relationship, i.e. accept the subtle promotion.

I mean, OBVIOUSLY monetary concerns are at the root of this, from the fact the offer is for PRIVATE as opposed to just another NHS practise. But the fact of the matter, with your mum really not open to it, is that she obviously cares more about having her husband and the father of her kids daily beside her (gosh, how queer). And ANYWAY, surely there are private practises nearer to home? So why this one hospital in particular? Do YOU know, Lily? Did he say anything?

Tom's dad could work on the moon for all he likes, but the glaring and impassable difference here is, Tom's mum clearly quite likes it that way and must have liked or seen benefits to the concept to start with to have agreed and still be married to him, whereas YOUR MUM DOESN'T AND IT'S HER HE'S PARTNERED UP FOR-LIFE WITH - so *END OF*. One "Aye" and one "Nay" equals NAY. So he can damn well choose, can't he - his marriage and normal family life or this mere job. But if he hopes your mum is going to get worn down then used to the idea or find herself and her resolve diminished by this period of 'Coventry' - or, perhaps, eventually agree to move out there (wherever there is) - then he's undoubtedly very much we've just witnessed with regards to her ability to FASHION a turbo even in the fact of her own, natural one having seized up or gone out for the day. In fact, I reckon the longer he refuses to shelve the idea permanently, the more resentment and cause for doubt and alarm (and future bad feeling) he's going to cultivate in her.

Can he not see how anathema the idea is to her by how 'violently' she's reacting since he mentioned it *and still*? I repeat, your mum is SO DETERMINED not to fold that she'd even deliberately contrive a false impression (other woman) that hurt like uggery!

Well, anyway, we don't know what's going through his head at the mo. For all we know, secretly he's decided against already but just doesn't want to let on and be seen to back down too quickly in case the triumph-based confidence goes to your mum's head in terms of any future 'arm wrestles'.

Give him a reason he's not thought of yet, to back down, Lily. Tell him that you wouldn't be where and how you are right now if it weren't for his having been in your life in such an involved day-to-day way...particularly as it's no lie anyway, psychologically speaking...., but that you ain't finished baking yet.... does he WANT you (and your sibs) to do a sunken souffle job and on his head be it? Okay, you might not, you three. But WHY RISK IT FOR JUST A BISCUIT?

You see, I really don't think your dad WOULD have even given the idea the time of day if he realised just HOW vital to kids' developments it is to have one's dad constantly around and to-hand. Or put another way: half a parental unit equals half parenting *or* one parent knackered to the power of double (equals half a parent). Men need to be needed just as much - or possibly more - than women. Make him realise how vitally important he is, switch his perception of what Success means. If the family home set-up even overly resembles a broken one then broken home is going to be the environmental influence as evokes the corresponding psychology and outcomes ON YOUR YOUNGER SIBS ESPECIALLY. So in ACTUAL fact, what your dad is considering is quasi divorce versus actual divorce.

Guillotine or gibbet.

WHAT A DRONGO, as we used to say in school (entirely appropriate, the way he's thinking- or NOT thinking right now).

Make him feel like the family will suffer majorly without his proper, full-time presence and input and remind him of how many other private practises there are. With a private job offer ALREADY on the table - he can mention that bona fide 'recommendation' to any interviewer (and explain how only the distance was the deal-breaker) and immediately get viewed as red-hot goods to be snapped up on-the-spot. SIMPLES!

If even over the coming days or weeks he still seems dead-set on this particular clinic/hospital then we have to ask ourselves, what OR *WHO* is it that makes that one establishment apparently so head-and-shoulders above those already in your postcode.

The good news is that he was a miserable, snappy sh*t. ;-) Think about it. All kids are that once they realise they can't have what they thought they wanted and could get, and there's going to be no backing down and no room for manoeuvring.

I repeat, that private clinic is not the only fruit, not by a long shot. And if it is, then we all want to know IN WHAT WAY(S) is it?

Maybe the Who is himself? Maybe he's disappointed in himself thus far ("where's me Jag by now?!") and set on destroying what isn't really worth preserving (current job/career thus main lifestyle) or even just trying it on for size because he's never been reckless, ever, and the urge refuses to go back to permanent sleepibyes and miss its very last chance to escape his system? So that makes it even more necessary to remind him of his Number 1, most worldly important career: husband and father, one of the ones with his finger on the button in terms of what tomorrow's and the next day's (and the next's) adults will be like....including [drum roll...] towards the elderly and other societal dependants.

...not least because you, blister and bother are going to be the ones eventually one day deciding [drum roll again.....] which nursing home, added to the fact that one reaps exactly what one sows, no more, no less. Keep that one as your little Ace card in case worry over his old-age security is indeed a factor.

And leave these articles (whoops) lying around... but leave them lying in with other, non- or less-related print-outs (and then ring to ask, 'Did I leave a load of A4 print-outs at yours the other day, can you have a look to see if they're there for me? If he's even slightly AS then the curiosity will get him looking). He needs to appreciate that this is FAR more than just a career-impacting decision (understatement!):

...This bloke's too stubborn to leave it solely to your mum and her now, equally frustrated and livid sister (obviously she is if blister asked her not to whack him one, eh). And anyway, he's your (and sibs') bloke just as much, isn't he, irrespective that the nature is fairly different, so I fail to see how this could count as you sticking your oar into purely adult biz.

IOW, start taking the chair away, gradually, and at the exact same time be overtly seen to be bringing a THRONE in with the other hand. Make his ego your *friend*. That's what I'd do. And from what you've just reported, your opinion of your dad is evidently especially important to Mr Snappy-Pouty-Blinkered.

Ha-ha, I've just realised - he's now got FOUR adults trying to block his silly path! There again, it's his fault it needs four where just one, the main one, should do, is it not.

Oh and by the way, he doesn't want counselling because he already knows he's 100% in the wrong and that any decent counsellor would be able to see it (and might well vocalise it in front of them as would put instantly paid to his little campaign), BERBOM!

PS: "[there is a counselling course (for beginners) starting at a college nearby which I think I might do as long as there is no age limit just to see if I like it] I'm never too sure on giving good advice so I wanna learn."

You being never too sure - from what I've seen so far on other threads - makes no odds to the fact that you're instinctually sh*t hot, even *without* much first-hand life experience! ((*whispers under breath with semi-zipped lip*) Im facht, ou're evem mepmer ap it mam Pom, im my opimiom...mut mon't pell Pom I fhed vat, for Gog's shake! ;-))

Parents split up

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Took me like a little while to get the last bit ha, thanks thats given me some confidence to go and answer some more threads, and lips are zipped :-D.

Yeah, thank god my auntie was there , if it wasn't for her the rest of Boxing Day would of been a bit crap, and depressing . I brought my dads bad mood home with me :-/ but she snapped me out of it and was like forget get about it, it's still xmas. But I understand his bad mood, makes sense now from what you put. no one is sticking up for him or even looking at it in his way coz it's stuoooopid, so he's on his own.

My Auntie has also really pushed my mum on counselling even if it's just her that goes for the moment. Think they found someone. She gets a million aunt points.

Ah man, I gotta talk to my dad agin ? *sighs* - joking, unless my mum talks to him before I do, which is unlikely, but it was what my aunt was trying to convince her to do as well when they get back from being away. I just don't think I'm gonna get through to him with words, actions deff speak louder with him. So I Will print out (and read) the articles too, and leave them lying around round at his place. I think he will deff be curious and go looking for them.

No, he hasn't said why he wants to work this particular hospital , that was an obvious question to ask that I missed, oops! The only thing I do know is that his 'friend' works and lives there - I can kinda see why my mum is still totally convinced something is going on and that he's being lead on.
There are private hospitals closer to home, if that's what he wants to go do but I thought he was happy where he works now. I will question him about it though, a lot, will just have to wait a few days till I'm home!

Tom's not happy with him either, he rolled his eyes when I told him and was like he needs to sort himself out and promised to distract me, he's done that so far :). So maybe five adults, not that he'll say anything.

Anyways Happy new year :-).

Parents split up

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Yep, Happy January 1st (lol, I'm so cynical).

1. Actions always do, with men, whether conscious of it or not. That and liking things to be all their idea (which we've just had confirmation includes him) is why you 'forget' your reading material (or is it Tom's - who knows?). Leave them messy as a contents pile in, say, an over-roomy, open manilla envelope or open-sided plastic folder as well, just to make retrospective detection of snooping unlikely on your part thus all the more tantalisingly do-able on his, lol.

2. 'Being led on' my a*se. I still reckon he's playing this woman friend-with-the-job and her colleagues as much as he is your mum, using said fact of her being a friend and having to act like one (patient and understanding) first and foremost. Think about it - isn't this whole job vacancy and interview schedule set-up so uniquely and conveniently in terms of it waiting around for him (assuming there even *is* a job and he hasn't just enlisted this *mere friend* to aid and abet). I wonder just how long the oh-so-casual and patient option would remain open to him if, say, he were to at any point tell this woman, this acting practise representative come go-between, that he couldn't possibly accept their opening while his whole married and family life were mid 'taking a nose-dive'? What sort of people, even those who *weren't* your friends or connected via friendship, would be capable of cancelling the invitation or trying to pressure him into attending the interview on their schedule or certainly where concerned accepting it? Under nightmareish circumstances like his? Who'd want to be seen behaving like such a cold-hearted, mercenary a-hole as that?? Would you want to be the person or group of people/practise that earnt itself the kind of cruel and nasty reputation associated either with having cancelled the poor sap concerned's opportunity or having pressured him to have to start according to practise needs and schedule? It'd be tantamount to refusing an employee the right to attend their own parent's funeral or forcing them to change its booked-in date! Kicking them when they're already seriously down.

Nay. You'd feel obliged to wait until holding the option open for the person were finally no longer reasonable by anyone's standards, not even Jesus himself's!

Maybe this woman has always fancied him and is grateful, finally, for this opportune lure and hook, or maybe she hasn't. Your mum's got a HUGE head-start on her on that score, regardless (hardly a fair race). But a new LOVER would be round at his house *all the time*, not just occasionally or only enough that you all spotted it merely the once.

This woman could be trying to finally bag your dad but that doesn't mean he's interested that way any more than he used to be (not) or not busy just using her and her job proposal as pure leverage - albeit, KNOWING he isn't seriously enough considering taking it would still leave your dad anxious and agitated about attending, being found out in that regard and getting told 'user!..time-waster!'. So the clock is still ticking and the pressure still on rather than not whatsoever.

Plus - they were friends - fact. What if she just needs his help in being accepted and included more at an otherwise still chauvenistic place of work? There's no behaviour on her part to suggest the new lover or hope-to-be lover hypothesis, is there.

3. ...So I'm sure he *is* still perfectly happy at his current practise! Anyway, it's not the sort of question that one should even need to ask in order to be enlightened over. If there were any solid-gold, cast-iron reason why he were having to consider such an impractical option, your father would have said so already as his instant arguments shutter-upper. It would have been the very FIRST thing he'd have been spouting in his defense. So clearly, there isn't any.

And what company can allow that sort of cavalier time-taking or -giving over a job vacancy, anyway? Answer: something that provides far more notice than a mere job quitting/changing, i.e. [a] planned maternity leave where the woman returning, by her own admission, looks as if it'll become unlikely, [b] planned practise expansion plus various new departments and positions created - equals, no major hurry. But still "a" cut-off point. Hence already as far back as *October, no less*, the invitation reared its head yet was capable of waiting until January, almost 3 months, to even start the ball rolling.

What a superb marital bargaining tool, what a handy shelf-life.

4. You don't get far in medical general practise, let alone practise or acting manager, if you don't naturally possess shed-loads of common-sense, Lils. I really don't think he'd be so blatently obvious about this woman as to pull her out in the open for all to see and ditto the fact of her working for the very hospital he's aiming to work at and re-locate to - do you? If - IF - he's sh*ttily playing mind-games (whether or not he thinks desperation when up against your mum shifts it suddenly to acceptable) - then there's a *very* fine, *very* delicate line to be struck, or [1] it wouldn't work for being too transparent and [2] by some women could alone be deemed grounds for a divorce. (You imagine being your mum, basically at whatever point realising she's been CONNED - what's more, using the stoke-age of her worst personal-life fear(s) - by her own so-called husband-protector-needs provider, and you'll instantly feel what I mean.)

5. "Cheers, 'friend'! Thanks for the opportunity I needed FOR STRONG-ARMING MY WIFE and teaching her a future lesson she'll never forget ("stop emasulating meee!"). But it serves me to go along with you for as long as I can manage without taking the damn thing.... And this is precisely why I'm meanwhile being seen as acting against my usual commonsense, to do what currently, circumstantially-speaking, has become an utter No-No of an AUDACITY, nay, TEMERITY, nay, *F**KING CHEEK!...."- Put it this way, Lily - you would have told Tom 'P*ss off, what are ya - INSANE?!', if during a similar, still-fresh, post-blow-out and stand-off period, with Tom not even having 'taken it back' and apologised yet, he suddenly, without-warning, wholly unexpectedly....RANG AND INVITED YOU OUT FOR YOUR BIRTHDAY!

Do WHAT?! In case you hadn't noticed, pal, you're in my extremely bad books right now!

Well, I don't know about you but I reckon most stickler-for-etiquette women like your mum - hearing that instead of what they WANT to hear at that point ("din't mean it, thowee, can I come home now?") - would during that phonecall consider that invitation of his as a glaring signal that in actual fact he was dead set on GETTING ROUND an apology (think about it), and slam the phone down. Because one should say sorry and THEN offer the invitation. Your mum's too much of a lady, hence still let him feel he were somehow being allowed to give an alternative gift in the form of letting her have you guys on 'his' time (- outmanoeuvred already!). So he must have gone, 'Oh, go on?', or (more likely) 'But WHYYY NOT?' a couple of times...pushed in the wrong and non-clever way. So it's like this: Oh, go on - have a slice of cake, please-please? / No thanks / Why not? / I just would rather not, thank-you / But WHY? / (sigh) Oh, well, alright, just a very small one...but the fruitcake, not the jam sponge.

That amount of control against losing your rag even when at liberty to is upper-middle manners, that is. That's high wonder she can cope being a teacher - not just because of the kids but the other teachers! We're talking Heirarchy plus Office Politics City! I mean - did *you* enjoy that aspect of school?! Would *you* wanna go back into that social minefield?! Well, they do. And when you're daily dealing with 'She said this/she said that/it wasn't me it was her because she told Gemma that I'd said X and I hadn't and- / Yeah, but Gemma told me what you told my boyfriend which was that I'd snogged Tim- SHE DID, MISS?! - / Yeah, but I didn't though - I DIDN'T, MISS! - that was Helen, and you *knewwwww* it was her, you just! don't! like! me! just because of that time last year when blah-blah, which was *your* fault, not mine, and anyway-... / E-NOUGH!".

Yeah. Enough. But it still goes in, still infects and circulates and infuses and drags their attitudes and modi operandi down to that petty level, leaving them risking being deemed by parents as "typically" supremely narrow and petty minded types if they're not *exceptionally* careful and self-aware. By the same token, that's how you get the sorts of opposite-extreme teachers who are snooty, superior and too unconcerned with details even towards their very clientele (parents): trying too hard to stay above it all to point of then unable to ever switch it off. (You'd have to have hung out in various staff rooms and/or be a parent to really appreciate what I'm saying, which is - the DOWNSIDE of 'Kids keep you young'.)

He acted wholly inappropriately even for him because the sooner he can call the ruse off, courtesy of your mum folding, the sooner he escapes outwardly tarnishing his professional integrity in front of 'his peers'. Mr Usually Pragmatic & Socially Sensible & Careful showed he was under too much pressure to remember how circumstantially ridiculous that birthday invitation would come across as.

He risked looking like an over-entitled, clumsy idiot because the clock (whether genuine one or not) already was ticking, couldn't AFFORD to wait and think it through.

"Don't have to say Yes or No. I can use it and keep it alive for as long as I need it as my multi-person-blackmail tool. least for more than the usual decision-making period (and that's probably more than I need anyway, knowing Mrs Foldie)."

Men can be very sneaky, Lily. I've seen every trick in the book, multiple times!

So look at that wonderful, self-made "rock and hard place" shield against doing a thing either way (for a while)!...aside from issuing idle threats, of course. Only my wife can make it stop and all go away ("can't take the job after all, sorry, "compu'er said NO, I'm sure you can understand - I can't possibly ruin my marriage for a job"). Talk about can't lose?!


Men always miss at least one vital, giant detail, though, don't they. It's called, 'No, that's right, husband, we DIDN'T used to have a problem with our marriage - true. But that was BEFORE!...And never MIND how at the time you eventually backed down and agreed not to carry it out...That's not my point, here! You still went ahead IN THE FIRST PLACE with putting our marriage at huge risk with your ridiculous threat to go long-distance on me and the kids, despite you could IMMEDIATELY SEE how dead-against and upset about it I was!, but did YOU care that you were upsetting me to point of jeopardising our marriage together?!... so now, how the HELL am I ever going to be able to get over that and what it says about how you feel about me and us and how committed you still are or possibly ever were to begin with, eh - Einstein?!'.

Oh, but didn't we know? - she's Mrs Forgiveness...he can see her halo-(halo-halo...) (idiot) No, she'd be right - that was Then, when he hadn't ever DONE this level of insult before (we have to presume?...since they were still married and snuggling?)

Maybe he should take up betting in casinos or riding a monster motorbike instead, eh, if he's such a fan of huge risks and manoeuvre-ings. He can think himself Mr Clever-Pants Chess Player-Poker Player as much as he likes but - one, tiny problemo - HE WAS NEVER A SCHOOLGIRL or - worse in your mum's case - one that STAYED THERE PERMANENTLY. (Intensive training? - you betcha!) He's not in a woman's league (ha-ha!) when it comes to psychological warfare against one's peers of either gender, often carried on for weeks....months....on-and-off YEARS, hence,

'[WHEN the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride,
He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside.
But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail.]
For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.'
(- Rudyard Kipling)

And that's the trouble, isn't it. Men didn't mind them "being better at something" when they still 'owned' the typically male stomping grounds because then they had X and women had Y [pun deliberate] - fairsie-sharesies. (Back then women's higher emotional-intelligence-led ability to affect, influence, bribe, manipulate, etc. from behind the scenes was called Feminine Wiles.) But society has increasingly for too long been encouraging men and women to compete and encroach into one another's skills territories. Women are emotionally far clever, not least because their whole lives they didn't ever even have to clock off when in public ("it's myy paaarty an' I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to, CRY if I want to..."). Practise makes perfect, practise for longer makes superior, and that is that is that. And most women can MULTI-TASK, as in, keep an eye on all congruous-making details at all times, including sub-details or just potential ones of possible diversions en route to possible outcomes....all bases covered, all Ts dotted, all Is crossed (...the man's! (ha-ha)).

My money's on mum. He's failing miserably already for one reason alone: because he's the one in the wrong *plus* too much of a decent guy normally to be great at high-stakes poker.

From what I can gather - regardless of issue and execution, intelligent women mostly all think men are emotionally stupid for the simple fact of believing they're actually emotionally CLEVERER than women. Women only openly go "rarr-rarr-rarr!" these days because that's what you have to do to survive in the male hunting grounds. Yes, it's taken as a habit, BUT, they spent far longer at more do-or-die depth, going, machinate-machinate-plot-bubble-toil-HA-TAKE-THAT!. So the minute they realise they're going to *have* to resort to 'down and doity' because he refuses to cease scraping the childish barrel'....they wipe the floor with them. Every. Time. ...Hence two thirds more broken-up men commit suicide than women.

....So, unless there's some giant leeway been granted him on that giving his final answer score, that flies in the face of normal good business practise, he must know what he's doing and must know he's never intending to accept that job (despite the employer doesn't). Only he doesn't know what he's doing (ruining) BEYOND that initial achievement. Gosh, how queer for a male not to foresee and work out consequences that far ahead, Lily.

And that's why you witness his being so snappy and crestfallen to point of incapable of hiding it. He's finally realising he never could or would get one over on your mum, no matter HOW tightly he turns the thumbscrews.

OH, YEAH, HE COULD! It's called, lead via your carrot. You be all-round lovely and princely to your woman and she'll do bloody ANYTHING for you - ANYTHING...certainly if it's in her power. BER-BOM! THAT'S what a mature, emotionally intelligent male does. (Too few of them around these days, though.)

It's men's own fault. If men/the patriarchy had rewarded and credited women more befittingly for doing the greatest ever job known to humankind (producing and moulding always-potentially-dangerous 'tomorrow's adults') then women would never have gone, 'Right then - we'll come stand over HERE so that maybe THEN we'll get our recognition and appreciation, finally!.....oh, wait up - THIS IS FUN!! :-)'.

If men weren't OVERALL equal to women then men wouldn't ever be heard saying 'that's not fair!'. If women weren't OVERALL equal to men then women wouldn't ever be heard saying, 'that's not fair!'. If it feels unfair, it probably is, same as 'if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck - it's probably a duck'.

Neither is superior. An apple versus a banana or vice-versa, never is, never can be, never will. Ever. Anyone of either gender that tries to be or tries to make out they are is emotionally thick as pig sh*t.

But I digress (yabber-yabber-yabber)... So here endeth the sermon by s/he who thinks all 'naked apes' are downright so blinkered and short-sighted most of the time that they really can't see the woods for the trees or what's good for them. ...This case, your dad. He just didn't stop to think. PROPERLY, ALL THE WAY. He didn't behave like a REAL MAN that knows the secret behind making a Lambhourgini never-endingly purr and perform pleasingly to his every-...not command, but *will*. Whereby it was all her idea THANKS TO HIM.

He's not used to working in a team, even a duo, is he, Lily. The career power's gone to his head and dumbed him down as a result. And anyway, what man was capable of performing optimally in any job interview or job itself (never mind with a new relationship and home on top!) while staring loss of his marriage and family in the face or newly coping with the real thing, even if kept tightly behind the facial mask in terms of outward appearance only? It would still make a move like that non-successful.

It was always going to be a stupid and futile suggestion/threat, whichever way anyone looked at it. Zero carrot, innit! How hard IS it to sell someone an idea that gets them just as excited or even more excited than you?

But the nucleic fact is this: Your mother was not the one to upset the apple-cart. If she contributed to the marital state as heralded the *urge* to start prodding it off its axis, that's a different kettle of fish entirely as demands no more punishment or torture than hearing this: 'Houston, I need this/that/things to change so can we discuss it, please'. Not any prodding. Prodding unnecessarily without warning shows fear and pessimistic expectation in motion. The mentality of the destined-to-lose.

Maybe losing or winning isn't even his point, though. Maybe he's giving her the worst-case scenario so that in comparison the retaining of long working hours scenario no longer seems so objectionable? A or B - choose. Only, he forgot C: Neither, and pee off altogether (but thanks for having let me get so used to living without you that the umbilicus shrivelled and dropped off)!...

(Ignore the playing away or permanently breaking-up aspect, the typically male short-sightedness is the point):

Still don't think it's going to get to that. We're just about three whole months on already and nobody but nobody has been to see their solicitor or is even making the slightest noises and moves in that direction, instead getting stuck into keeping it all at pettier level of allowing auntie to keep stepping in, etc. I expect auntie's biggest reason for wanting your mum to get counselling is to help her calm down and think straighter/cleverer.


Glad you're getting lots of (cough!) lovely distraction, courtesy of Tom, LOL.

Parents split up

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Not ignoring the above, read and watched link, but got an update.

My mum told me on Sunday she and my aunt had been to see my dad over the weekend, was a bit surprised but thinking about it, they had just spent three days away together and knowing my aunt, she would of talked and talked and talked and wouldn't of stopped until my mum finally agreed to go see my dad, coz she was adamant that thats what needed to happen. She went with my mum for moral support but apparently stayed quiet (hehe, bet she found that was hard) and let my mum and dad do the talking.

My mum ended up giving my dad an ultermatum, her or this potential job. She said, she didn't even think about saying that to him, she wanted to shock him and make him think but she means it. It was because told he told her, he had a date this month, to go for a meeting at hospital and he was very serious about it but convinced it can work, if she would let it. But my mum told him it wasn't going to work, and even if he goes for the meeting she'll give him serious hell, because it feels like he's abandoning her/ family, which I get, i'd probably think that too!

she told him if he forgets about it, like not so long a go he said he wanted to do, then they would have to go to counselling together but it would be on the right track to them getting back together/him moving back home . Oo what a hard decision to make! Lol. So obvious to everyone else but him :-I.

she said she left after that so he could think about it. I wanted to go round and speak to him (Let-me-at -him!!) but she told me not to because it needed to sink in.

Er hasn't sunk in. I know it's all in his head, ticking away and I'm reeeaaalllyy hoping he'll realise what a tw*t he's being but he hasn't yet. Dunno if I'm too impatient but I spoke to him about this yesterday. Annnnnd here are his crappy reasons, which I don't think are even justiciable but whatever, at the moment he believes them, just like he believes my mum will be 'ok' with this eventually.

- Wants to work at this particular hospital because he knows people who work there, not just his 'friend' . it's also at senior consultant level and he gets to work in what he specialises in, in a private hospital -nicer environment, apparently.

- He can stay with his 'friend' in the week and not have to live in a hotel. I know what he's thinking - coz he's tight, he gets to save money if he stays with her. Also how convienant :-I, if what ever her name is does fancy him, urge, that would be perfect for her! Bet he didn't tell my mum that. I don't really want to tell her yet if he hasn't, coz she might go a bit mental.

- More money obviously. More family holidays and for him and my mum (I don't think Extra holidays to even the most azamazing places are going to win her over). And he'd be able to help me a lot more when I got to uni and pay off any money so I will be debt free at the end of it. Hmmm, don't I need to learn? Not that I'm bad with money now but that was my first thought :-/ . Also him parting with money ...I get scared just asking him for like a fiver coz he questions me what I need it for. So yeah thats gonna work... not.

- Doesn't want to commute into/work in London everyday, most obvious place to go , if he really want to work privately - if he was that serious, then he would do it?! Would rather travel however many hours twice a week? Answer was yes.

- Lots of perks that come with job.

- He will be home most weekends, that's the one thing he wants to get sorted when he goes to this meeting. Thinks he can get long weekend off.

I'm sure there was more I just can't remember! :P.

He finished off with 'I hardly see you in The week anyway and really only spend time with you at weekends so it's not going to be that different'. nice.

I then spent about twenty minutes arguing with him about why this was not a good idea and that he really needed to listen to what my mum was saying to him and seriously really think about it. She gave him an ultermatum not ' yeah! go ahead take the job'.

Anyways he got really angry and told me to butt out and that he wasn't going to be dictated to by an 18 year old*sehole, why's he being such a pr*ck? :( not like swore at him (was so close) or really shouted at him, if anything he got sarcasm. he's just being a spoilt kid still?

I did get upset, (that was NOT the plan, the plan was to stay strong, stupid hormoans! ) but it was out of fear out and frustration and that he's being sooooooooooooooo Stupid.

He did try to give me some reassurance by saying it was all going to be ok tried to give me a hug (geeet ooffff, I'm p*ssed off with you). Gonna be in for a bit of a shock isn't he ?! Coz when my mum says something in anger, she means it there's no winning her round.

Did remember to plant the two articles at my dads, not that I feel like calling him and speaking to him at the moment.

Weirdly, Megan had texted me whilst I was at my dads, so that was a good excuse to leave quickly. She wanted to hear about Cornwall - really didn't think she was that interested (also wanted to tell me about new bf too coz out of jealousy Holly has been ignoring her over xmas) but she got to hear a bit about my dad instead, lucky her, but it was nice, and better then going home.

Lol, annoyingly not that kinda distraction, we were s*x deprived :( :( haha, only done it once more since the first time, so maybe Tom was more. His (old) room was in-between his mum and dads and a cousin on the other side, who had a little kid < who didn't know the meaning of knocking :-O , despite being told to, and kept running in and out. His family didn't really go out either, so we did - how dare they not want to go out into the cold :P.
We even left really early on Sunday and we were waaaaaaaay ahead of his mum and dad, until Tom managed to lock us out of his car by leaving his key in the ignition at the services.
Nice thing about Tom is, after the initial 'sh******t, can't believe I just did that!' He didn't get stressy or moody and he just sorted it out (tick). Did kinda feel like everything was against us but oh well.

Parents split up

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It *is*...UTTERLY ridiculous, though, if you stop and think about it... a grown woman and a grown man, supposed "proper grown-ups" that can handle serious, responsible careers as 'societal parental' figures (i.e. mum and dad to everyday parents and their kids), married for decades,...needing the woman's own sister to be sat beside them, supervising negotiations over their marital battle. I'm really quite surprised that your dad has been allowing this. In fact, surprised at your mum, too, that she'd *want* her sister sharing what actually underneath it all is an intimate act. ...And your auntie, come to think of it. But obviously you let them off when you remember that these guys have never been close or attentive enough to have a serious fight before so haven't a clue how to keep their cool and cylinders running, *and*, the behaviour shows, are too PETRIFIED to leave it up to themselves alone! Think about it - they'd rather have their sister/sister-in-law present (ew!) than take the chance to conduct the meeting just the two of them. So that's a hugely positive sign yet again because it means - this - not letting things get to the Big D - is too important to both of them...shows how much they care (and how panicked)... about each other and their relationship, you guys, their family as they know it and want to continue knowing, basically.

I imagine all three of them are really going to feel quite embarrassed for a while, right after this has newly blown over. But all three will be tighter (up-side again), that's for sure.

Yeah, You can't order your average man around and expect him to get on with the decision process the minute you leave. First he has to get over the insult of being told what to do/not to do. Patience, grasshopper, LOL. Could take up to a couple of weeks. But this would be THE prime moment for you to remind him how crucial to your futures he is. Because then he could present it to your mum, sooner, as a half backing down, with the other half being '...and because Lily made me see how much she and the other two need me as their ever-present father'.

Er...Wait up... How come you spoke to him, regardless of your mum having asked you not to?

Well anyway, to the reasons...

1. "it's also at senior consultant level and he gets to work in what he specialises in, in a private hospital -nicer environment, apparently"

Those are three reasons, actually. All salient and valid... doesn't even need any other reasons (but - very interestingly - I can see you've got more than one bullet point so...)

2. "He can stay with his 'friend' in the week and not have to live in a hotel."


Right! Have I or have I not just this minute [sorry, am taking it line by line and thinking out-loud again] indicated he didn't need any other reasons if those above ones were true? THINK ABOUT IT!

Did he have the temerity to tell your mum this? I mean, even IF they're just platonic friends - AT THE MOMENT - I gather she's definitely single?

Right. Hasn't cheated but isn't exactly against welcoming the ideal recipe to something on the side starting! 'Seemingly/on the surface', I should add.

Okay, you think he hasn't told her.

Do you tell her? Oh, god. Even I don't know what you should do's one of those grey areas. The social code of etiquette would say no, absolutely not (in which case you'd have to keep it a secret for the rest of your mum's life so as not to attract any resentment from her (they always say they'd have preferred to have been told important information they were ignorant of at the time but whenever people DO tell them right at that moment, they don't like it......well, half of them, depends on the individual and how fair-minded they are, and you can't know that because you've never sampled your mum that way before). The moral code says, absolutely yes! Let's contextualise it to find our answer:

- Your parents *on the surface (appearances)* kept you three out of it, but REALLY, in terms of "oopsie-daisies", they did a fine job of both dragging and tempting you all in. And Auntie. So apparently it's group property.
- It's group property anyway, morally (you have a right to know, your younger sibs especially, since Home as they always knew it is still maximally important at their ages). And apparently group property enough to have a third party relative *directly, almost fully* involved (whilst this affects you three FAR more than even she who doesn't live in the same house as them or directly share their lives, unlike you guys).
- He might just be intent on hurting her (through you)...doing that 'making you the backroom messenger' subc. manipulation tactic attempt of his again.

Either your dad is completely thick (and self-destruction-wise suicidal) where relationship mechanics are concerned *or* she's neither begging him to stay sufficiently nor the way he wants her to, meaning, he's taunting her (through you, he hopes) with even MORE reason to demonstrate her objection (and reasons for it)...cranking it up, in other words. It bears all the characteristic hallmarks of male-with-shrivelled-ego manipulation... because, think about it, he hasn't committed adultery, he isn't even giving anyone any concrete reason to suspect he would... he's just basically beginning to cock his pistol and make shooting motions at the cute puppy. He's trying to squeeze a bigger, better reaction out of your mum before he'll do what he was going to do all along, which is EVENTUALLY BACK DOWN!

Yep, that's what he's doing. He can't be practise manager *and* that thick, even if this is about the emotional intelligence domain. Not possible.

He will back down if she switches from 'mummy/matron displeased with naughty boy / employer disgusted with employee' stylee to woman in love (= pride can take a hike!), i.e. wailing, 'I love you, I NEED you, I can't live without you, PLEEEEASE don't take this job, PLEEEASE!'.

Yep, it's like I suspected: mum's been growing despondent and disinterested with dad over recent years (that'll no doubt be the THREE FULL-TIME JOBS!) and this is his way of trying to CRANK her back up to purring mode rather than re-woo her there. Bloody knew it. Didn't I bloody know it? (*sigh*) Now I *actually* know it (if you know what I'm prattling about).

The only thing she can do is, precisely what she's just done (although it's a shame she couldn't have slid in a BIT of romantic, needy heroine, in terms of just the ultimatum's style of delivery, to keep his ego monster more fed than starving). Because her providing the latter tack he's after would mean her PANDERING to being emotionally, coercively manipulated. If she pandered once, then, any time in the future he wanted more reassurance about her strength of feelings or to get his unfair way over something, out would come the loaded gun yet again.

This is definitely Poker. Your mum has to feel okay about the idea of ending this marriage in order *not* to end up losing it. Otherwise, the ultimatum won't ring true, her fear will leak out in her behaviour/tone somehow.

Did you get the impression she'd been very cool, calm, collected but very, very firm and (how shall I put it), QUEENLY, yet at the same time making it CLEAR how much she loves and needs him? Or was her voice trembling/eyes tearing as she said it, etc., etc., in such a way as overly fearful and dreading losing him?

No, DO NOT tell her about the "sleepovers", it's not real. I repeat - if it IS real, this stupid 'proposal' about sleepovers with this single "friend" is just plain suicide on his part to point of his literally being dumb- let's just say it: retarded. Which he is not.

Nah, he's just acting up and out, majorly. OMG, he must be LOVING the fact that even Auntie's been suckered in! However, even so, he really is just making everything worse and worse and needlessly harder and harder for even when this becomes all sorted out, isn't he. I mean, vis-a-vis what I said up there about "that was then" - talk about shooting himself - albeit just from very long-range - in the foot (or face, even)? Or is he thinking he'll have the opportunity, one night all re-snuggled in bed, to confess, 'Nah, I didn't mean that bit, course I didn't, I was just talking angry ollocks and at that point in the proceedings still felt like wanting to hurt you'?

But here's what I'd have done (albeit your mum isn't me, she's clearly a bit gullible and over-trusting): the minute he showed he was still even considering the idea, I'd have said, 'Then get yourself a solicitor and - as husband and wife - I'll see you in the next life (if you're lucky)'. I will *not* be emotionally played, least of all by a so-called spouse, not for one minute. The emotionally playing - for SELFISH reasons or even just using a selfish and cruel method - would itself be my deal-breaker (you do NOT dangle baby over the balcony - tight grip plus Superglue plus 3 harnesses or not!). Hence, just still at this point, actually, seriously - OR NOT SERIOUSLY - *considering* a move that was basically a with-approval semi-divorce, i.e. where he gets to stay familied and married yet with a new romance on the side or single lifestyle during the weekdays, etc., - never MIND whether it's a cruel ruse or not - would, I repeat, be an instant deal-breaker for me. (Oh, aye - Mr Soulmate does *not* have a slacker's time of it, no way, Jose!) I wouldn't mess around, giving chances that a grown man didn't even need (as if we all believed he was really just 5).

I really don't believe for a second that he seriously wants this job, other than a sneaky tool for squeezing greater love juice out of your mum (enough to stop him), because - notice, he seems to be doing absolutely everything he can to make her say, 'NO, NO, AND A THOUSAND TIMES NEVER!', rather than agree. Or even consider it seriously. Think about it. May as well ask her, 'Can I slice your t*ts off?...and then toast them under the grill?' / 'Oh, yah, sure!' (not).

Can you see what I'm saying, Lily?

HE CANNOT BE THAT INCREDIBLY THICK OR THAT INCREDIBLY CLUELESS ABOUT HOW TO SUGAR-COAT A PROPOSAL! The more badly he wanted it, the more sugar loading he'd give it - to *ensure* a Yes!

He does not want it, he just (pff - just) wants to see your mum fight tooth and nail to stop him. *IF* she doesn't (as in, she who cares as much as "ought", wails loudest), THEN he might consider whether he has a marriage worth staying in or staying faithful in. Or not. He more than (highly) likely hasn't even thought that far ahead!

3. Oh, lookie - he's testing YOU, now! (- course - first-born). "Me as your dad or me as your Daddy Warbucks/walking wallet, Lily - which side do you actually, genuinely love the most?".



"I get scared just asking him for like a fiver coz he questions me what I need it for. "

Oh, does he, indeed. How very revealing! Your dad's acting like a Grade A coward with serious trust issues, Lily. Sorry. He believes even his own daughter might try to take advantage by asking for money under the guise of genuinely needing something when 'actually' merely wanting to live it up needlessly at his expense. (Not that a mere Fiver equals living it up, but you get my gist.)

Tsk. I don't know what to say to you, your dad is behaving like a teenager. If that!

BUT! Has he got a point??? Looking back, DO you think you guys have been making him feel taken for granted and unappreciated - hand on heart? RSvP. Not that I'm condoning his methodology, but - ?

Oh, lookie again:

"He finished off with 'I hardly see you in The week anyway and really only spend time with you at weekends so it's not going to be that different'. nice."

No, no, no, Lily, you've got it wrong - it's not an insult from him to you, it's him putting an insult from *you to him*, putting words in your mouth: 'You're not interested in me any more, either, mew-mew, so what would YOU care if you didn't see during the week, hmph! Deeper translation: "NOBODY LOVES MEEEEEE, SOB, SNIFFLE, PARP!'

Oh, good grief - someone massage his ego and make it snappy. :-p

Start your side of the process of giving the fool what he so badly wants and needs so that he won't keep trying to force it out of you all with his giant size 19 hands. (I hope to god he's not an eye or vein surgeon, Christ!)


...But back to the nitty-gritty (because you clearly are misunderstanding a lot in terms of where he was secretly coming from and madly hinting about):

"Anyways he got really angry and told me to butt out and that he wasn't going to be dictated to by an 18 year old"

Bit late to say that, eh, GIANT NOTE! May as well insist the waiter take back your meal for being inedible only once you've eaten the last-but-one morsel! *Lie Alert*. So it's another test. "NOOOO, DADDYYYY, I LOVE AND NEED YOU TOO MUCH TO BUTT OUT. AS YOU CAN QUITE PLAINLY SEE, I WOULD RATHER BE SUBJECTED TO YOUR ANGER FOR A SHORT WHILE THAN EVER LET YOU LEAVE US!".

Good grief again. SO CHILDISH. So self-pitying. What's wrong with, 'Can I call a family meeting?.........Well, I hate to say this, everyone, and I don't know whether you're aware of how your behaviour's been affecting me lately, but...I'm feeling very unwanted and underappreciated by you four because [etc].....and I would like this to stop because it's making me feel somewhat worthless'???.

How negative. How pessimistic. How cowardly/over-guarded and self-protective. In fact, I don't even feel even the slightest satisfaction over the fact you've basically confirmed everything I said I suspected was going on and why. I'm just really disappointed for you because this has GOT to be making you lose a heck of a lot of respect for your dad as a so-called mature, capable, clever, in-control, ADMIRABLE adult man - right? Talk about, baptism of fire for you re. the childishness of some so-called adults dawning on you. Sorry, Lils. I apologise profusely on behalf of today's society as a whole for your parents and your dad especially. :-( Let's just hope he thus she regain their senses sooner rather than later, hey.

There again - Trump managed to get in so, nuff bloomin' said.

Well, anyway. It is, still, just a fight caused by battle of wills caused by resentfulness (dad's) - cause: huge attention-seeking (or recouping I should say) on his part. The underlying action-message, I think, is, dad feels you lot - mum included - EMOTIONALLY have half-left him lately (and he's been bored, effectively all by himself, just working, sleeping, working, sleeping) hence his thinking (under the influence of the drug called, Pity Party) is, 'Well, if they're going to half-leave me then I don't see why I should sit here and take it rather than half-leave them back...or pretend and threaten to, anyway'.

Possibly his parents were neglectful ("Not now, Bernard"). It took this kind of little production - him having to go to extreme - for them to suddenly sit up and take notice (or we hope that's why he did it). And now that he's felt cause to start curling back up in the foetal position, he's bringing in the, what he once *thought* was the old, obsolete, nest-only script that goes with it.

"No-body likes me
Every-body hates me
Gonna-go-an' eat-some worms..." (do you know the rhyme?)

Well, I guess your mum can start reminding him more lavishly how much she still rates and loves him *after* he's agreed to drop this silly blackmail attempt; for now, he'll have to remember to note the actions. That's definitely all it is. He's being far too transparent (to me and anyone else who can see through the silly drama parts).


Back to you: No, it's GOOD that you argued for 20 minutes and equally good that he saw you get upset. He's not stupid, he'll know you're speaking for your mum and co. as much as yourself so it's wot da wickle bubbie needed to hear. So you've done your mum a favour, really. But I repeat, do not mention the sleepover so-called idea/intention to her or Auntie because it's just him pushing her buttons harder/further due to the fact she's not gone as far as fall at his feet in tears in front of him (yawn).

OH, YOU DID PLANT THE DOCUMENTS ALREADY - EXCELLENT, WELL DONE! :-) I doubt he'll notice them on his own ("where are my socks?" - you know what they're like), but - fair enough - wait until you can bear to speak to him. Or send a succinct email/text asking after them? 'Sorry to bother you, but, I think I left some important paperwork...?'. That way, you don't have to actually chat and can keep it to business only.

Imagine being your dad, feeling like "nobody loves mee, boo-boo" but then, following 20 minutes desperate and exasperated plea-ing, he then snoops in the envelope and gets the surprise of his life! "OH, they DO care!", he's going to think.... major egg on face. And you do (tsk, course...but he clearly doesn't believe it). Because even though the documentation was my idea, you COULD have come back with, 'Nah...can't be a*sed, Soulmate', couldn't you. So there you go. He finds proof of you having gone to more effort than he ever imagined you would, and.... ego whatever percentage fed, he's then far less difficult to reason with when next your mum has to talk to him.


And lastly but definitely NOT leastly:

"Nice thing about Tom is, after the initial 'sh******t, can't believe I just did that!' He didn't get stressy or moody and he just sorted it out (tick). Did kinda feel like everything was against us but oh well."

No, lass. You ain't going nearly deep or meaningful enough. The "nice" thing about Tom IN actual fact, is that, when he can see you're already in the midst of going through a very stressy and upsetting/disrupting time, HE (happily, voluntarily) WALKS ON EGGSHELLS AROUND YOU AND IS EXTRA NICE! (SUPER-TICK!)

Your boyfriend - despite is still only human and given to the *occasional* ball-drop/slip-up - is - compared to- well, certainly men of your dad's generation and above - an absolute 24-carat diamond!!!!!

GOOD. Because I would hate for a likewise 24-carat diamond such as yourself to be paired with anything less. And I mean that 100% sincerely, modom. As I told Richard on't phone the other day, I have never been as all-round impressed with a 'mere' (sorry - you know what I mean) 18-year-old as I have since I first 'heard you talking' in your opening post. You astound me, young lady, you really do, and it's been an absolute pleasure to play your hand-holder stroke supervisor in all this. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but - tough! LOL Be very proud, be very AWARE - that that makes you quite rare and exceptional in today's world! - and remember that not everyone will always be as strong, dependable, straight as a die, all-round mentally hard-working "good egg" as you and your counterpart, Tom.

Take this tip going forward in life: If they're not, and are in a bad way because of it, offer/respond with an arm to help them up and out. If they take it to pull themselves out of their muddy little pit - great. If, on the other hand, what they do is try to pull you IN AND DOWN *WITH THEM* (as in, misery loves company as an excuse to avoid doing the mental chore of self-helping), LET GO IMMEDIATELY AND WALK AWAY and remind your overactive conscience that you tried your best when trying simply wasn't wanted in the first place. You can't be one of a helping team if the other member, the one in trouble, isn't interested in being helped or cooperating with their 'rescuer', can you. Half of something never achieved a whole of something in the entire history of the universe. Plus your energy is precious *and finite*.

Trust me, it'll keep your face wrinkle-free and your hair Grey-free later in life when all your friends are shrivelling and wizend-ing up seemingly in front of you. You'll win Glamorous Granny competitions and still be able to touch your toes! That's how it works.

Oh, and - keep it up! :-) Don't let anyone ever tell you your standards are too high. If anyone tries, suggest you quietly and gently say - The fact you think my perfectly achievable standards (because I've myself my entire life been consistently achieving them) are "too high" tells me that yours are my idea of TOO LOW, in which case, let's NOT you and I ever get married, then! (which is funnier if they're female).

....................What was the question again? :-D

PS: Feel free to (all your own idea) mention in passing to mum - or, possibly better yet, Auntie - that you think dad deep down is just talking a load of attention-recouping b*llocks because he lately feels ignored and redundant, won't you. If you want to, obvs. If not, don't. I mean, I expect you're sick and disgusted to the back teeth with it all by now, yes?, and that'd be perfectly understandable.

Let's just sum it up by saying, You just do what you feel is right and double-check with me if you want. Because your instincts have consistently proven to be BANG-ON where it matters, better than most grown women's! *I'd* certainly lend you a fiver no-questions-asked, that's for sure...following which, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you came back later having somehow turned it into £50! And insisting I take £25 rather than just the original £5.

(Poor "unloved" dad, eh? Suppose you've got to feel sorry for the silly ugger.)

PPS: Mr Soulmate returns home tomorrow and has made a big point of booking 'Two Bugs In A Rug' Time, so I'm just forewarning you I won't be able to post on top of just patrolling the streets with my trusty paddle (;-))for the next two or three days, okay?

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Ok :-D

Thank you, no ones said that before! :-) I'm not aware really, just thought I had quite a lot of common sense. I think i would of gone crazy if this website didn't exist and its probably saved my parents a lot of money in counselling coz I'm guessing thats what I would of ended up needing.

I liked the tip too, will remember that one!

After my dad told me to 'butt out', I did start to wonder why I cared/bothered so much. yep, I am really, really bored of whats going on but since they are both being a bit 'special' and haven't been straight with us, I can't help it, I'm gonna do what I can, then at least I know I have done something.

My aunt has told me it was really weird but holding my mums hand but it was the only way of getting to to talk to my dad. She said it felt like they were five and ten years old again not grown adults. But once there, I reckon my mum was a bit of an ice queen and teacher-ish with him, which he probably didn't like.

I talked to my dad on Tuesday coz he said to me 'I guess your mum has told you she and (auntie) came to see me over the weekend, which is why your here'. Main reason was to hide the articles and was trying to decide if I should say anything but he did instead. (Only asked him to look for them today!).
And this weekend bro and sis have also been showing my dad they're really unhappy, with what's going on. I haven't said anything else to him, been sitting back and I'm letting them have a go. sis is saying more ' please don't take a job that's far away, I'll miss you', more of a daddy's girl (things my mum should be saying!), and bro is er, more blunt, which doesn't help coz it gets him in trouble. My dads giving them some reasons he gave me - not all of them, obvs and I'm sure from some of the looks he been giving me, he thinks I've encouraged them, which I haven't!

Yep I do see what you're saying - he's attention seeking and when one threat doesn't work, he looks for the next biggest thing to try get a reaction coz he wants to know we care, mainly my mum? :D I did tell my mum I think he's attention seeking big time, and just left that with her to think about it.

I don't think he's told my mum he plans to stay with what's-her-face/ friend, and if she does know, I don't think she would tell me but I won't say anything. Feels like it would get too messy.

Money thing - Ugh, there are quite a few girls and some boys too in my year at school who go shopping with like a sh*t load mummy or daddys money (no doubt their credit cards) and are really spoilt. It annoys me just listening to them brag to each other. don't like it/want to be like that ever...So my dad has it easy!

Buuuuuuuuut....Maybe we all have taken him for granted, sometimes without realising, thinking about it. More taking less giving back from us all. My sis has somehow always managed to have him wrapped around her little finger, how, I don't know. bro ...he's prob not been the easiest person to bring up (?). He used to love planning family days out but that stopped prob coz i wanted to hang out with friends more. He did actually like to have family meetings, (stopped too) if he wanted to bring something up or moan about something and we all used to roll our eyes and be like 'what now!?'. Not very patient. Those could be reasons (oops). Maybe I should ask him?

I feel sorry for him but yeah I have lost some respect and don't think I trust either of them as much I did.

Parents split up

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1. Your ahead-of-years commonsense is but one symptom of it.

I doubt you would have needed to 'network up' with anyone else's 'biological computer', actually. You might have been *slower* at cottoning on to everything, but it would have been the normal rate for your age- or should I say, capabilities. I and Tom and Auntie have done nothing but help you process it all faster.

I just tell it like it is, me. But you're welcome. :-)

2. 'Special' as in licky-white-minibus-windows-"num-num!" special - yeah. LOL Adult, Jim, but not as we know it.

3. "I reckon my mum was a bit of an ice queen and teacher-ish with him, which he probably didn't like."

That's tone. I was more interested in CONTENT, not firm, dispassionate or even icy, mere style of delivery. So did she also "firmly" say something like, 'You know I have always loved you and always will BUT that doesn't mean (etc)'?

4. LET him think that. He'll realise soon enough that he's WRONG, won't he (because they're not idiots who can't work things out without your feeding the answers to them).

5. Mainly your mum, yes, because she's the one he feels has 'gone off him' and maybe inadvertently set the tone and pattern of late.

6. "I did tell my mum I think he's attention seeking big time, and just left that with her to think about it."

Nice one! Hopefully that new light will clarify and simplify things for her if she 'replays all the tapes' under it (which she will).

7. Again, the sleepovers bit can't be true or else he'd have mentioned it, before now, directly to her...which would make it undeniable. Not so if it comes via you, as in, "Aw, tsk, she got the completely wrong end of the stick!". But that enlightenment would stay under-table for quite a while before it had to be released, leaving ample time for the idea to first work its strong-arm-ing, upped ante magic.

8. "So my dad has it easy!"

There again - so do you. It's BECAUSE these kids have little else demonstration of what they should be getting to rely on that they take the only other thing seemingly going (guilt money) and then get into that habit of equating 'money given is equal to love felt'. Poor them. Who told them they couldn't have BOTH? They then crow about it TO CONVINCE THEMSELVES it's a valid, decent substitution. The more people go, 'Oooh, your dad must really love you', even by implication or inference, the more they too can push aside their doubts and maintain the delusion. Yet note they're not stood there crowing that their dad took them out for the day or whatever else that takes more time and effort than getting their wallet out?

Possibly it's *not* a delusion and *is* a substitution. But it's not the standard, healthy mode of feelings demonstration, is it (ergo, what would these people do if material things ceased to exist - give nothing *and* say nothing?). Plus, the trouble is, actions are limited in terms of all we wish to communicate/convey by them....we've outgrown them, really. This makes them open to more than one interpretation. After all, 'Here, take my credit card and buy summat nice, luv!' could mean 'because I love you and love spoiling you' or 'this should shut you up and keep you off my back for longer'. That's why we developed speech, to CLARIFY and leave zero uncertainty over what the act specifically means or is geared towards. That way, the person knows where they stand. And only when you know where you currently or always stand can you know in which direction to move next in order to fortify and/or build on that relationship. 'This should shut you up' is hardly encouragement to take the next step in the relationship, is it. So we EXPLAIN what our action means within roughly the same timeframe as we deal it. If you "say it with flowers" *and* say it with your mouth (or supplementary actions that can't be interpreted any other way, like a long, heartfelt cuddle and kiss), you've delivered the entire coin, rather than just a room-for-doubt half of it.

But I digress again.

9. Here it is - the biggie:

I knew there'd be a 'but'.

Lil sis has him wrapped round her little finger precisely *because* she unabashedly says sincere, heartfelt, "embarrassing/babyish" (they're not, actually) things like you've just quoted at me.

GIVEN that it turns out his reactive behaviour right now has valid basis, rather than just being a case of spoiled, constant attention-seeker gratuitously acting up, I suggest you all make him a homemade card - *each* - to show your appreciation but, given the present context and the cards' timing, basically say, 'NOOOO, DON'T! - EVER!'. It'll take an awful lot of resentful wind out of his sails. In fact, you never know... especially since he'll probably, logically suspect that your mum put you all up to it. ;-) Or auntie (same token, considering she's mum advocate).

No, don't 'ask him'. Too embarrassing from his present position. Plus, you don't NEED to ask him, now, do you - just re-read that paragraph of yours and do the no-brainer maths.

You've planted the insights seed in mum's head.....meanwhile (cards) you've planted the dad-softening seed up. And then ("bubble, bubble, toil and trouble") just wait and watch for those two improved mental states to inevitably meet. :-) And yet, what have you actually done, other than, just what kids naturally tend to do in these situations? [ting!, halo]

Again, you're *not* ideally supposed to get involved with giving leg-ups. But when both parties are acting like MIDGETS...LEGLESS ones at that! - the rules change. Particularly when - despite the protests with their mere mouths - you've seen both parties holding up neon signs that read, 'INPUT, INPUT, GIMMIE INPUT, HEELP!'. I mean, as but one, tiny example - what happened to his 'butt out' all of a sudden? What happened to any of the other available options, including (inconsiderate or not), 'I'll explain what's what to you kids when I or I and your mother are ready to and not a moment beforehand'? I rest me case, which - in light of the fact verbal communication is puny compared to all other media, behavioural especially - I repeat, is, they've been non-stop asking for it.

I think that, and your ages, make it okay and make it even more of a family matter than ever. But in fact, the FACT they didn't inform you kids properly is yet another huge clue about how 'storm in teacup' this really is. No forethought thus no preparation.

10. Family meetings. OH, REALLY. I like that (TICK!). Good sign of emotional health (in situation normal, obviously) and highly **indicative of his character, not just for how 'above table' it is. So there's another reassurance-type reminder you could bring back: Dad, can we have a family meeting? And also just more in favour of the 'storm in teacup' assertion. I mean, if ever there were a topic for calling a family meeting, surely he and your mum (allegedly) deciding to separate was it? (GOTCHA! many is it now?)

"I feel sorry for him but yeah I have lost some respect and don't think I trust either of them as much I did."

I wouldn't worry about it, it would have happened anyway (umbilicus lengthening process). Destination pre-determined, particular route itself variable.

**But now I appreciate why your dad and auntie get on so well and why he didn't tell *her* to "butt out". Apparently, she ain't the only secret hippy "inn thuh vill-edge". And - ha-ha - your mum obviously rates her sister because - she married 'her', look!

It's all good. These suggestions of mine are just about speeding the inevitable up, as well.

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(happy) There is good news. My dad has finally started to see some sense! He also had a decision to make as well.

He was meant to go the hospital today for a meeting but he didn't go :), he told me last night he wasn't going. I had been anxious about today incase he did go and came back and told us he accepted a job, which I knew it would of made things a million times worse. I wasn't too sure what to do or how to handle it. I was soooo relieved!

He was going to go (so he says) but he said he wanted to talk to my mum before he went and they met up after work on tues and talked about it. No idea what was said but he clearly wasn't able to do any persuading or get my mum be 'ok' with it and in the end decided not to go. Also he would of come back home to quite a few pi*sed off people, which maybe put him off. Apparently he's disappointed - gonna have to get over it. I don't think that will take long.

I'm also taking them meeting up as a good sign too, since last time my mum needed my aunt there and that was what, like only a week or so ago!

My mum is saying she still furious with him for putting her/us through this and she working on him to go to counselling with her but he's still being really stubborn with this :-/.

But yeah think everything is paying off, all is deffinately good :-D . He found the articles, got him hunting for them and no suprise said he read them too!

guessing the homemade cards thing is still a good idea to do? Ugh, My sis will be in her element, bro likes being arty too, it's more me :-/.

Parents split up

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Well, it was inevitable he'd have to climb down from his Silly Tree at some point, eh. But, yep - EXCELLENT news!

Did he tell you after having already told mum or before?

It wouldn't have just made things worse, it would have been the final straw and all prior straws in one fell swoop. AND he knew it. So I agree with your "(so he says)", still can't help suspecting this meeting was however much bluff (possibly entirely) because, again, I've seen that kind of crap played on wives once too often. And, of course, said 'amateur players' are always the ones that, seemingly against all signs and logic, refuse to admit that it warrants a course of counselling (again, that way lies bluff- or complete exaggeration-exposure). I imagine that's why he basically asked your mum for a refreshed No, so that he then would 'have to cancel' the meeting because of her, not because he just decided off his own bat on the day (...and that way, he can always in future turn around and say, 'How can you say that - don't forget I turned down an amazing opportunity for you!'). That, and getting to hear yet another 'Nooo, don't leave me!', no matter how checked and measured (or even coolly clipped) her actual version sounded at the time.

You never know... this female friend might merely have been sympathetic to his plight (whinging) and passing on something she'd learned or had had tried on her that had worked (- although, I'd hope not or that would make her a giant mercenary, not to mention don't pass on tips of how to, mildly or not/well-intentioned or not, bully, do you).

Agree all the other signs are undeniably, distinctly and significantly positive as well. :-)

Now all we're waiting for is for mum to follow suit and come down, since you've already basically said how she's the really stubborn one (grudge-holder?).

Don't lay back, all relieved, just yet, though, or you'll be starting the whole 'mother ship' off again; blow the damn thing to smithereens while 'the iron is hot'. *Maintain* (you and the sibs) the standard-appropriate dad attention-giving level (which can mean just concertedly making time from now on to chat to him about your own personal lives, thoughts and feelings, rather than automatically s*dding-off to your rooms and gadgets). I would have thought a card from all three of you (jointly this time) were even more befitting now that he's (cough!) elected to turn the job down - to say how overjoyed and relieved each of you are and congratulate him on his sensible end decision. Put it this way (side bonus): if there were any part of him still intending to later resurrect the idea, you three saying 'hurrah, you're staying!' would definitely put paid to that. Yes, it's emotional blackmail but, *sometimes* fire can only be fought by return fire.

Impact-wise, three cards versus one 'giant' card is much of a muchness, *apart* from the important fact of the latter subliminally driving home the concept of *Unity*.

I'm not surprised your mum still wants counselling (despite it's not ACTUALLY needed - he'll have learnt his lesson by now) because, to her thinking - irrespective of what it was over, specifically, or where it was, the fact remains that he tried to seriously rock (or make out he was rocking) - to point of almost overturning - the love & family boat, as begs the question, 'who in his position would choose that ridiculous method, and why?'.

Insecure-male attention-seeking - horribly negative if positive isn't on offer (or feels too 'embarrassing and humiliating' to ask nicely for), and completely overdone with their Size 9 lumps of ham (otherwise known as hands) - isn't exactly anything to write home about, too many of them try it at some point...most more than the once. Maybe repeat in passing the 'just fishing for attention and a sense of being appreciated' comment when you next speak to mum? (People who are DefCon-ed tend to be too much inside their heads to properly hear or grasp first-time round, you have to keep repeating yourself (or slap their faces with a wet fish as you say it) to get through the anxiety and panic to their actual brains.)


He actually *told* you he'd read them? Ha-ha, talk about strange mixture between overly open and honest and furtive and game-playing! I'm now wondering whether he got the whole charade idea from someone (female friend) or some-THING else (online 'how to treat her mean to make her keen' article of the chicken or misandrist variety?), HMMMMM... something he obviously considered well worth a try (given that the advice obviously failed to forewarn about the backfiring/aftermath bit (gosh, how very queer for 'misery loves company' merchants...not)). Well, GOOD, because the so-called advice will have been revealed as pretty worthless by now.

So, tell me... when he told you he'd read your print-outs, did you get the impression he'd seen right through the deliberateness of the tactic (albeit, equally appreciable of the sincere and perfectly laudable reasons) to lead him into snooping/reading, or did he appear to believe it were all down to his having naughtily helped himself to something that hadn't ever been intended for his eyes?

Ironic, isn't it, Lily, to realise that THE most easily-manipulated people on the planet are the original Machievellis themselves, the Narcissists (which your dad isn't, but the ploy definitely was one from that cess-pit). Whatever they try on you, they try because they *know* it's something that'd would work or hurt if done on them (as, indeed, it once will have been - hence why they're in that fixed-attitudinal mess). What I hope this exercise has taught you is that manipulation itself is *not* a bad thing, any more than guns, *if* purely used for good and healthy intentions. Only ever manipulate for an 'everyone's a winner' reason and you can't go wrong. Try to do it out of self-serving selfishness and - whatever you send out through another will - *will* - come back like a boomerang on you (when, not if). So it's best to throw out sugar and spice and all things nice, eh!


Get sis and bro to help you design your card or your input into a joint card (- I really do recommend the latter, however). A lot older or not, you can't be naturally superior to them in *all* things, now, can you; that would make you literally Superwoman. Plus, just as parents are supposed to learn things via their kids that they didn't learn or take enough notice of or get put properly in context first time round, same principle goes for elder daughters/sons and their younger irritants-I mean siblings (phew!, that was close, LOL). I mean, everyone should know how to make a homemade card (you never know when you might need that really personal and impactful (more to the point, compensatory) touch...e.g. Tom!). So you missed a skill first time round, didn't you, Ms I Love Homework. Yet (lucky you) here's your opportunity to add that ability to your personal, life (i.e. other people) skills toolbelt. Plus it'll inspire your sibs to cease feeling so helpless or one-way dependent on you. After all, come the day when it's just the three of you, what you *don't* want (*really* don't want!) is two other adults who constantly lean on and come to *you* for help and hand-outs but haven't a clue how to return the favour when, for once, it's you that's the one desperate for support and advice. If you have two (in that context) chocolate teapots for confidante-supporters, you could end up feeling *very* abandoned, alone and lonely, not to mention resentful and bitter (albeit, that's where lovers and firm friends come in...god's apologetic compensation for family, LOL).

Imagine how special and effectual those two saplings are going to feel if you say, 'Right, then, Manet and Monet, how do we do this - show me this magical, mystical sorcery of yours!'.

Gotta get your longer-range 'reap-what-you-sow' glasses on, Lils, because the so-called far-off future isn't nearly as far off as we imagine when we're at your age ...largely because as soon as you hit roughly 22-25, the years start - imperceptibly at first but then altogether *too* perceptibly - speeding by, faster and faster ("Whaaat - we've only just HAD Christmas, haven't we?!"). And as, in one way, perception *is* reality - OLLOCKS to '80 years average lifespan'. It's 20-odd years followed by another 20-odd of half-years followed by another 10 of third-years followed get the gist. Total yearage in terms of time-perception: probably no more than 50 (if you're lucky). ...And you've already spent 18 of them.


People don't tell you that. Well, they *think* they do....come out with passing comments, usually, like, 'Ooh, it's all downhill after you hit 30/40, ya know?', typically with a face-saving chuckle at the end, when what they *should* be doing is grabbing you by lapels and screaming their warning in your face until you really, truly get it and start living your life (and reaping) accordingly.

I hate raising my voice so here's an exercise I always give as an equivalent to said screamed warning: Go stand beside a ticking clock or put your watch right up to your ear (yes, that's right - right now, this very second). Close your eyes and listen to the tick-tick-tick.... Now imagine you're an ice-lolly suspended over a bucket. And instead of ticks, hear DRIPS....You, your definitive life force, melting, second-by-second....minute-by-minute, hour-by-hour, daily, weekly, monthly, YEARLY...until you're nothing but bare stick, no life-force left (and re-named Twiggy, LOL).

Have you done it? Brings it home to you, doesn't it? If not, you're officially insane, LOL.

(Am thinking you're mature enough and plugged-in to reality enough that that doesn't cause you nightmares (gulp!), but I feel pretty damned confident that it won't and will just get you taking it as inspiration where concerns appreciating the true shortness of your visit on this planet that bit extra.)

Anyway - back to your dear ol' dad. You imagine how you'd feel if YOU were the one having 'threatened' to move away and, having eventually backed down due to the pressuring, got a card from your parents and your two siblings saying 'hurrah!' and 'thank uck!'. You imagine how loved, wanted and appreciated and downright important to them you'd feel....every single time you got it out and looked at it (which you don't throw something like that away - ever). It would remind him that the carrot is far more powerful than the stick. It would remind him to put entertaining such stupid, self-pitying thoughts in the bin, permanently.

So it's not just 'a card', is it. It's a lifelong, instantly accessible antidote to *any* such future 'illness' or relapse. Anti-repeat-manipulation aid. The difference between having been out-manoeuvred for the sake of you four alone versus having been out-manoeuvred for - immediately *and* ultimately - his own good and you four as an important byproduct. Like I said before, nobody but nobody has any problem with at whatever point having it dawn on them that they'd been played, solely or moreover, into a much better, happier place. So in a year or so, you'll have great fun revealing to your dad what you did and why...and will probably get a grateful and impressed hug instead of a lecture.

Maybe leave a gap in the centre of the card front and offer it to your mum to fill in, see if it'll prompt her to try to see things a bit more from his point of view, typically male kack-handed method notwithstanding. That would shut 'im happily up, forever, that would, ....the silly tart, LOL. Nah, but seriously, there's nothing worse than feeling like your own family see you as nothing more than a spare part come skivvy. ( which case - Wrong remedy, valid problem.) (...A senior GP, you say? LOL) (ha-ha, kick me later!).

(PS: sorry, but I've finally got to say this because it's a too-common mistake these days which consistently gets my anal goat in a complete lather: it's 'would HAVE', not 'of'. Well, you did say you like homework did you not, LOL. Again, kick me later. ;-))

Shame you won't be able to show me the card, I'd like to see that. You'll just have to describe it for me, if poss. PS: afore I forget: the more childlike it is, the better, so don't worry about amateurish-ness. Paw-marks, smudges, glitter (lots of glitter).... *all the more cute*....get him thinking, 'they're still secretly/underneath it all just my babies, look!, ahhhh, bless'.

Remember, you heard the truth in amongst all that drivel, from the horse's own mouth: Well, you (cough - YOU) don't really see me much these days, anyway, do you (meh!).

Under all that bravado, men are such sensitive little souls, aren't they? Who told them they couldn't be all impressively mighty and scary *and* gentle, sensitive and delicate at the same time? As a newly grown woman and romantic partner yourself, you'll already appreciate how a man having enough of *both* is what makes a guy the most irresistibly attractive, impressive and sexy. Hence the bestseller, L'Enfant:'Enfant_(poster)

"In a 2004 British television documentary about L'Enfant, The Model, the Poster and 3,000 Women, [model, Adam] Perry claimed that as a result of his poster fame he had slept with 3,000 women.


I rest me open-'n-shut case.

So.....yeah......anywayyyy.......What was the question again? :-D

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My dad told me after he talked my mum, I think he kinda realised he wasn't actually going to go but he just wanted to give it one last try before giving up his act!

Nope, not going to sit back and relax, I don't trust them enough just yet! I know it could just take an argument or for one of them to do or say something or for my dad to start resenting my mum for not letting him take the job, which would set them back. Still got my eye on them! But they have been talking a lot since and have been meeting up a couple of time after work again this week to talk apparently.

I think my dad has still got a long way to go coz I don't think my mum is going forget this for a long time...yeah she likes to hold a grudge and now I don't think she's afraid to question him or confront him on this anymore. I have repeated the attention seeking thing again to her and I think she's starting to realise.

I'm really pleased/bit excited with this >They are going out this weekend, like a date innit? :-D. They've asked me to keep an eye on the sibs and entertain them in some way, don't actually mind, if they are going out and having fun and it's going to potentially improve things. Its My dads belated birthday idea for my mum and she actually seems quite excited and wants to go out with him (Y).

We did make my dad a card, which he really liked and said he really appreciated it and seemed to put him in a really good mood allll weekend. The card was covered in blue and silver glitter (front and back), and we cut out 'dad' in the front of the card and sis did some sort of fancy thing to make the 'dad' bit stand out, and we cut out some stars and them stuck on too, ha. Did look like three four year olds had made it but it worked :-D.
I also made tom a card too, (I actually got into this card making thing, didn't think I would, don't normally like arty homework :-p but I found it quite relaxing) a small one with a cut out glittery red heart and stuck it on the front. You gave me an idea, partly coz I could sense he was about to test me in some sort of way/throw a wobble again coz he said 'I love you'. It kinda slipped out, don't think he actually meant to say it but he then said it again properly and I was a bit shocked... Not in a bad way, was actually quite romantic at the time, i was just taking it in thinking 'really', but it felt a bit weird/cheesy saying it back right after he said it. So anyways he went a bit quiet on me, oops, and I was trying to think of something to do pdq, before he got the wrong idea and a card worked, along with soppy message inside :) ...apart from the glitter, note to self he hates glitter.
Back to my dads card we did leave a space for my mum to write something but she didn't want to, she thought it was nice from just the three of us, this was last Friday so she was prob still frustrated with him.

Also I did make sure I talked to my dad more last weekend and encouraged the sibs to do the same too, sis was more cooperative then bro :-/.... I also joined my dad when he went out and stuff just to keep him company, when normally I wouldn't bother.

Ooo Yeah I did do the excerise, Er yes it did hit home but not in a scary going to give me nightmares for the rest of my life kinda way but it did make me think. I got tom to do it too, gave my watch, which was when he reminded me how much he 'hates my bl**dy watch' *rolls eyes* (hasn't a occurred to him yet that he could replace it, if he really wanted to) and he got it but was like 'every time I hear your watch ticking it now reminds me of that exercise thing you did with me' ...yeah, men are sensitive! If he starts having nightmares I'll let you know :-p

Yep my dad did tell he read my print outs and all he said was that they were an 'interesting read' and that was it no questions. He's always liked snooping/being nosey, Im sure if I kept a diary he would find it and read it, which is partly why I don't have one! So no I don't think he did see through it was just him being him.

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LILY31 it's taken me almost forever to scroll to the ding dang bottom here. Glad to hear that folks are going out this weekend .....

I like to hear positive things

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Unfortunately life is full of things that'll bring you down, make you feel lost and leave you frustrated. That's what my life has been like since I left school, I do my best to fight but at times it does beat you down.

Same happened to me in 2011, my old man was a monster but I didn't know it at the time. He would mentally bully my mother and he was jealous of me from birth because all attention was on me when I was born... which is obvious and normal. So then he started hitting the bars and coming home late at night drunk causing arguments with mother. So all through my childhood I grew up scared of him until I turned 21 when I decided to try and help him.

Haha, was I wrong. Decided to go out on Christmas eve for a drink, so... on the way there on the bus he thought it would be funny to flick this boys hat who was sitting in front of us, he told my dad to leave him alone. No abuse or anything, he just said it like that. With that my dad got up and screamed at him. With that I got off the bus and walked back home, didn't talk to him for 3 days.

Because I worked with him as a cleaner I had to put up with him at work, he was the biggest rat there. Causing problems between people, making it very hard for others to get along. Damn... thinking about it now brings back a lot of anger.

So one night I came home from a friends and mum was crying her eyes out, long story short she met a couple of friends from the website friends reunited, which were old school friends and one of them was male. So 4 women and 1 male were out just having a laugh, that was it. She told him what she had done for the afternoon and he blew up, told her she was cheating, she was a lair and a horrible wife. So after calming her down, when she was asleep I grabbed my jacket and I stormed out of the house and walked to where my dad was staying... at his mums house (shes the biggest trouble maker but that's a story for another day), I was about to knock and break his neck but I felt restraint and left it alone.

So the next couple of years he was staying at mummies house and occasionally coming back to our place for dinner and shit. In 2013 we moved house by then I had quit the job I was at to work at the local hospital. So one morning before we both left for work, he was being rude to mum and then came into my room and said "enjoy your day at the hospital, little pussy, you've finally stepped up even though you'll always be useless" with that I finally snapped. I grabbed my knife from my desk (I'm a sword and knife collector) and held it to his throat and told him that I hate his guts and never wanted to see him again otherwise hes dead.

From that day on I have never felt better about myself and mums been a lot happier over the years. It's like freedom.
I'm not promoting violence on family members but sometimes you need to step up, when somebody is being bullied especially if it's a loved one, you do anything even if its extreme to see them safe.
Yeah I had a lot of regret but... at the end of the day I did something right and now I feel good about myself.

I know our situations are different but at least you still have your father around and remain in contact. I hope things turn around for yourself and your parents.

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Sorry for the long delay, be with you anon, Lils!

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Hah - sooner than I thought!

(Thanks for your input, guys. And, Fugnuk - sounds like your 'father' was far too stunted/immature to handle fatherhood and its demands for taking a back seat for a while. Still, as long as you don't go to the opposite extreme (= same result), instead finding a healthier balance with your own future kids (enough attention + enough genuine disciplining), you've had a great lesson in How Not To.)


Glad your mum's cottoning on and agreed belatedly to the date. So - burning question: how did it go?

Am imagining being your dad and getting an amazing gesture as all that! Not surprised it put him in a good mood all weekend. And not just the weekend, I'm betting! Well done - Missions "Pre-Soft-Soaping On Behalf Of Mum" and "Male Ego Re-Pumping" successful! :-)

Tom got a card as well? I've turned you into a card-making monster? :-D "The power of the card...All hail the Mighty Card!" LOL.

Immediate reciprocation is not cheesy, though. Granted, you were taken off-guard, but, other than that, it's MUCHO importante! It's the mating call, isn't it (like birds: "Ur-urch, ur-urch!.... / Ur-uurch, ur-uurch!"). The caller expects an echo as his Green light to make the next move on the wooing/capturing schedule. No echo? - no moving forward to the next level. So thank goodness your call-back came with compensation for said delay (that's the way to do it)!

(PS: I'm sure he ceased hating glitter the minute he got yours. ;-))

Noted about mum not having been ready to contribute. Doesn't matter - you planted the attitude seed and that's the main thing... Although, maybe it was just that she didn't want to lump herself in as 'one of the kids' because - maybe? - that's been part of the entire problem? After all, what does it say if a husband just ANNOUNCES to his wife that he's- HE'S decided that they-THEY are going to undergo a major life/marital change at his unilateral behest, whether she likes it or not? It hardly says, I see you as an equal to me on this here marital board of directors, does it? So that could be why. But here's the crux: she's 'seen' you verbally identifying his ongoing crux problem and now 'seen' you meet the suspicion with its logical counterpart/remedy (one with lasting, self-replenishing effect), and, NOW, undoubtedly, has seen it effect an improvement = it must have been the correct diagnosis + treatment. So now there's no denying on her part that what you'd told her you'd deduced must have been true. After all, answers and remedies are relatively easy, it's identifying what precisely the question/problem is that's always the hard part (think exam questions). Now (click-click-whirr-whirr) she can see what she's really dealing with and throw out ideas for any remedies that neither align nor suit.

It should help a lot, basically.

Anyway, impressive efforts (and incredible level of cooperation and proactive-ness, actually!) on your part!


Ha-ha, if Tom starts having nightmares they'll undoubtedly feature ice-lollies covered in glitter...that he has to eat.

Nah, he won't be having nightmares; thanks to the fact you reciprocated in a fashion that made up for the delay, thus proving your delay as purely innocent, I imagine he's from now on going to be looking like he slept with a coathanger in his mouth. :-) After all, if a woman says or "do-says" I Love You Too, then on some level it translates, for him, to this: What an achievement / I'm good at wooing (thank-you fans)!

I'll await your update now. And PS: oh yes you do have a diary. This is it! :-) (Have you had a re-read yet?)

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Yeah thanks for in put. Scopes it's a loong way down... and gets more positive :)

Their date went well, they were out all day, which I knew they were going to be, and then they called to say they were back and going to the pub! Hmm, I had told them I was going out, which they pretended they had forgotten about (v.bad actors) and clearly thought I wouldn't mind, coz when I reminded them they were like 'but were having such a nice time together'. Couldn't really say no to that?! Its what I wanted to happen and normally I wouldn't of minded it was just that I then had to tell Holly I couldn't go out, which was interesting... anyone else and it would of been fine! It was just meant to be the two of us, to clear the air a bit coz things have been more then awkward between us, we're talking but it's not the same and we're both not being ourselves with each other. Of course she didn't like my alternative idea, which was for her to come round and have a girly night in, which I actually thought would be better coz we could talk more openly. Think she now officially hates me and megs coz she's ditched us for the popular ppl at school and had also befriended toms ex to obviously try and annoy me, it doesn't, it just makes her really two faced!

Anyway...back to the point, my mum didn't get in till like after 2 am, they obviously went back to my dads...where I really, really don't want to think about what might of happened (ew ew ew) but if it did then I'm guessing that's a good thing, ugh.

They also went out with the sibs on Sunday too and they're going out again this weekend. Basically, spending all their time together, it all seems to be happening really quickly but they both seem really happy at the moment and are slowly going back to their normal selves. Dunno why my dad just doesn't move back in but thats probably me just being impatient! Think I'm just going to have to start avoiding certain pubs/places.

Yep, I think that is why my mum didn't want to sign our card coz she didn't want to be seen as one of the kids. Before they always made joint descions, my mum did any organising (she likes it) and was slightly more in control but it wasn't one of them telling other what was going to happen.

You have turned me into a card making monster, don't think it will work on Holly though :^) . Seriously tom's face with the glitter, it was like l had given him some sort terminal glitter disease, men... must be a childhood thing, card was a hit though, am praising the card!

Yeah, have been re-reading, I like looking back and seeing how it all turned into a positive, think it took me a while to realise/believe it coz when I first posted I was convinced divorced was deffinately on the cards, wrong!

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Whew! It's a long way down to the bottom. LILY I was thinking of you yesterday when I was standing in line at Starbucks in back of a British girl. This was at the International terminal in the airport where I work. Her girlfriend walked up and said we won't have time for a coffee they're boarding. I said where are you goin? She said back to London as they swiftly walked away I said but...then to myself I said I wanna go too..

Actually I was thinking of Soulmate too.....

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Being out together all day long wasn't enough for them and they wanted to extend it into an evening at the pub? Wow - result!

Sorry - that didn't do it: WOW - REEEEEEE-SULT!!! (There.)

I was, before having read further, about to 'say', why not invite Holly to yours, but - she didn't want to meet you halfway and didn't appreciate the gesture? And then reacted as if you'd thwarted her plans deliberately? My, isn't SHE an over-sensitive little flower!

I reckon she hadn't been interested in any girlie bonding to begin with...merely wanted you for going on the cruise with (boys-boys-boys...she's in a hurry, remember?).

Well, leave her to it if she's going to be that difficult and prissy. I hardly think that gives her license to 'hate' you, though. I mean, what else were you supposed to do in that situation? Too unreasonable.

Ha-ha, didn't get in until 2am? Absolutely! - "WEEEE KNOW WHAT YOU WERE DOOOO-IIIIING!" :-D

Sorry, Lils,...but, yes, very- nay, exceptionally good news, nonetheless! :-)

And, I see, more dates planned, including family ones?!

Methinks they're well on the way to Fixedville.

I think I know why dad isn't just moving back in. Mum. I'm betting she LIKES him having to re-do The Chase because it gives her the opportunity to amend past rules/agreements and habits and introduce new ones, ones that give her greater relationship equity. Sensible woman - liking it! You see, Lily, you can *assume* a wife and mother has 'most of the control'. But if what she wears the trousers over is superficial stuff in terms of the grander scheme of things, then all she's got is placators, fob-offs and distractors. Example: 'We're having Spaghetti Bolognaise for supper Friday and on Saturday I've decided we need a new coffee table' is hardly the same as 'I've decided (without even informing/checking with you) to re-invest our pension "here" instead of "here"', is it. I mean, you can't really assert with any confidence that your mum has equal control, let alone more, when you remember his giant, unilateral decision to up-stix you all, can you? Evidence therefore suggests that renegotiations/re-training is, now more than ever, distinctly needed. Still, men love the chase and challenge so - certainly won't do him any harm, that's for sure.

I don't think Holly deserves a card for this one, actually. I think any olive-branch-ing is hers - for treating you like your company/the two of yours relationship wasn't the entire point to begin with and then making you feel guilty over something you weren't even remotely to blame for and therefore couldn't do a thing to change/fix....acting like she's the giant victim when in fact the opposite's the case.

Was that normal for her?



I take it you like non-stop cold and rain, then? You can also add, mini gale-force (cold, bitter) winds....London streets create a lot of vortices.

Bring a wet-suit and flippers, you'll blend right in. LOL

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Update, Lils? (I'll be posting again tomorrow.)

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Still going well :-D they're still meeting up after work, which has now become like a normal thing and tonight they have gone out for dinner to a posh restaurant...well that's what they've said they are doing, I'm expecting my mum to arrive home late again.

My dad with no encouragement from anyone has also gone back to his idea of giving my mum gifts, just more spread out this time and more thoughtful. my mum is accepting them too, think she is definitely enjoying all the chasing but she'll also deffinately be saying her bit too.

Also my dad has been quite excited this week coz him and the other gp partner have decided to make the surgery bigger and better, which means he now has a project. And I think also means he is less likely to go back to his stupid hospital job idea so he ain't goin no where. Still not relaxing just yet coz I don't know what my mum thinks about this, I'm hoping he's told her before me!

On Sunday we are going on a family trip to London to the science museum, this was my brothers idea. His counsellor has been encouraging him to find ways to help him feel 'more part of the family', which is what he says he feels, he happily updates me . Sunday i normally see tom coz he works all day Saturday but my mum after found out my brothers reasons why he want to go to London she was a bit upset and insisted that all of us to go. Really I should go on one family outing thing. Tom got invited too, he's happy to come coz he's he's want to go to he science museum, hmm dunno why but for some reason I think he gonna to act like a big kid :-p... I'm trying to find some enthusiasm for this, the parents are going to be even more embarrassing together then they were when they're apart,...Y..aa...y, science museum...roll on Sunday *pulls face*. I Tried.

Yeah Holly has always acted like she's the victim and she's always reacted like this if I've had to pull out on something. she also gets really jealous and makes it obvious when I or someone else have something she wants, but she's never actually stopped talking to me (and megs), which is what she has now done since last weekend. Normally this would really bug me and I would want to get it sorted but I think I am just gonna leave her to it. megs hasn't tried to go and make up with her behind my back which I thought she might do.
Also I don't think Holly gets a lot of attention at home or at least from her dad something going on there that makes her act like this. I think anyways. But megs and I have decided that if and when Holly does stop being so petty we're both make up with her at the same time so one of us doesn't get left out.


Yeah scopes it's freezing here! Am always cold at the moment brr.

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Wish there was a jump to the bottom option for replies.

Sounds good LILY so far anyway. It's actually warm here about 73 degrees and about to get warmer. I still want to go to London though

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Hey scopes no more scrolling it goes straight to the bottom of the thread now :-) .

Mini update things have gone down hill a bit this week. my mum came back from her counselling the other day not very happy and then she and my dad had an argument and now no plans been made for this weekend and have seen much of each other. My brother name was used a lot :-/. I know its not gonna be perfect all the time but I was getting used to things kinda going back to normal-ish.

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LILY there's going to be a downslide here and there but let's see how things go.

So does this mean that this is the end of the thread?

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Haven't you ever heard, Scopes? It ('it' being a Happy ending starting to kick in and unfold in this case) ain't over until the Fat Lady's sung. (Don't look at me, Mr Potentials, I ain't fat and I certainly ain't no lay-deh! GAFFAW-GAFFAW!)


Hallooooo, Ms Lily!

(Usual scratched record:) I'm SOO sorry for the delay-I'm SOO sorry for the delay-I'm SOO sorry for the delay...["urch!"] and yabber-yabber boring even myself now with this broken record.... Just bladdy non-stop busy as rhymes-with-TRUCK, aaand enough about ME.

Well.... Just goes to show you what can be achieved if you pull together as a family. You don't even have to pull together en masse, you can do it in little breakaway groups - 'departments', doesn't matter: the pulling together as one, 'company' is the point, ALSO KNOWN AS, "It's four against one, mate, give it the f*ck up, ALRIGHT, DR. FIFI CLAIRE-LOUISE VIOLET-ELIZABETH TRIXIE-BELLE with the obviously decent, lovely wife and three astoundingly strong, kind, well-meaning self-controlled (at their ages) children ["MORE LIKE THAT, PLEASE, BARTENDER?"], not least your literally astounding eldest/first-born? :-p

...Or 5 if you count me. Or 6 if you count Tom. Or 7 if you count Auntie. ...Am laughing my face off, Lily, cos, IMAGINE IF HE'D KNOWN? :-D

Psst! Tell mum next time to *always* call in the troops if at her age she finds she can't match him energy for energy because he's a bigger, now that she knows she HAS SOME (starting with her first-born no-longer-child-but-ADULT). Doesn't matter if whomever's doing the bullying isn't a bona fide bully, normally. 'Bullies/Those who are trying to bully to get their way rely on your silence/secrecy' still holds. Even make THE WHOLE 'neighbourhood' be avidly watching to see what (this case, his) next move or moves are going to be and he'll damn well behave himself and come back to seeing sense and feeling foolish and ashamed that much faster, yoooou betcha.

Final Conclusion - despite more encores undoubtedly still to come: (Apt to be) Stupid but not actually Murderous or Suicidal [crowd goes wild].

What have you learned, then, Lily, that's going to help you should ever *you* find yourself in your mum's position or any similar? (This is your University Of Life module exam question, LOL, and - though I may arrive slightly (LOL - cough) late again because I've got so much (practical) sh*t on my own plate - I will be returning to mark your your paper just as soon as I can. But now it's Playtime so - go and have some fun.)

:-) :-) :-)

Seriously pleased for you. Oh, and - don't think you have to now go away and be a stranger, carry on adding to your new 'blog' if you want to and/or take a purely adviser's seat, dealing with anyone whose thread appeals and definitely those of the teenagers who come on here that don't want to be surrounded by nothing but a load of "Wrinklies" ('Does my bum look saggy in this?')). I would be right chuffed to consider you one of the resident team, whyyy the uck not! - it's not ABOUT age-on-paper, it's about age of SOUL). What say you, you incredible (not-so-)little person, you? Does that appeal? :-) (Say "ugh, no, yuck!" if it doesn't, I trust you and your judgement, and that's saying an awful lot from an incredibly hard task-master like me, lick-lick, crawl-crawl, and other avid noises...).

Why am I congratulating 'the team' when you've reported an argument? Because it's just a normal......typical....mum and dad type of BICKER but they're just still living like separateds, that's all, not yet having had the chance to start to shuffle the things in the environment around to suit the new programme so are taking advantage of this actually much-needed break + 'separate beds' situation ("haaaaah, Me Time, haven't had this FOR YEARS"). Scopes is right to remind you that progress is never seamless, same as your driving lessons, but if you're basically a decent, well-intentioned person or couple or people and you just persevere and never lose faith - you get there in the end, sure as eggs is eggs.

Normal arguments are going to be a feature, now. GOOD! How refreshingly honest and sharing.

How ("hhhhh!....uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-AH!") was the Scienzzzzzzzzzz..................sorry!, Museum in the end?

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Are we done, Lils - everything still getting fixed nicely on the parent front, no need for more reality-checking, etc. - or do you have anything to report/confide?

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Ditto from Scopes

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Noooooo, not done just yet, I like my thread lol and want a happier ending! At least not ending on an argument even though I now know arguement are going to happen/normal... I'm waiting for my dad to move back in, that's my ideal and I'm willing to wait. So will update .

Just got a bit busy this time too, my mum and I went to visit my aunt and inspect her new bf :-D who she was keeping a secret since at least xmas (Y), think she's likes this one and won't dump him.

Also been having bf trouble *rolls eyes* are complicated and so not impressed with tom at the moment don't like it, but he's in the dog house :-I. If it's not your best friend being an idiot (still noting from Hollie either) it's your bf...or in my case Both!

Ohhh, look at me with the excuses :-p...

Think if my dad knew he wouldn't of even bothered :D.

There's still a bit of tension with my mum and dad from the argument they had, apparently my brother went to my dad with a problem and instead of helping him my dad had a go at him, which obviously didn't help. My mum wasn't very happy with the way my dad spoke to bro and she's says it's one of the things she wants my dad to look at. But bro should know my dad is not the best person to go to with a problem he obviously just wanted to try.

They've both had the week off work and haven't really done anything together. My dad ''forgot'' (so he says) about Valentine's Day and my mum didn't and got him a card etc. Not that they ever really used to care, just thought it might be a good time for them both to be romantic :-/. I dunno feels like it's going a bit backwards rather then forwards.

Science muemsum was ok, parents were then acting all loved up and were a bit embarressing. Was a bit weird going out with my mum and dad together as a family coz it obviously hasn't happened for a few months and in the beginning I didn't think it was ever going to happen again.

Dont plan on buggering off, Ok :-) will look out for teenage posts, have no idea what to say to some of he adults ones anyways :-/.

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Ahhh.. there yee are. LIL just keeping in touch is good, just let us know when you plan on buggering off.

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parents are back to normal and all loved up again now :) . My mum wasn't so bothered about Valentine's Day like I thought she was just like; 'a card would of been nice but he can make it up to me in other ways' ok, enough said thanks! My dad has also spoken with bro too and apologised (Y). Think my dad is slowly changing/trying to be nicer and is starting to look at his mood and is realising that sometimes he can be a bit imtimidating. Anyway they spent all of this weekend together just being at home (family home) and my dad stayed over, that might of been partly coz they were both looking after me a bit.

Which leads on to! ...I've had a sh*t half term. Things with me and tom have not been good since last Tuesday and he then broke up with me on Friday. Its so f*cking stupid because it's something someone else has done, not me or him and it doesn't feel right that he ended things because of it :(. It's like male drama version of what's happened with me and Hollie.

*sighs* keeping it short last Tuesday I got flowers from some else and tom didn't like it and ruined a really nice day by getting in a bad mood and just left and went home, which I thought was really immature of him. That was after arguing with me and saying that I wouldn't like it if it was the other way round. I don't think I would of been too happy but I wouldn't of reacted the same way he did or make him feel bad.

Wasn't too upset more angry and I just thought it was a stupid argument and he over reacted. We ignored each other for two days, then on Friday he came round, I thought to make up, but he gave me the 'it's me not you, I'm just really insecure and it's not fair on you that I'm like this' crap. He wouldn't talk about it,(I tried) even though he looked like he wanted to and he looked upset. And I know he was testing me in some way but I'm so bored of him testing me or getting insecure, when I have been making sure that I'm reassuring him/fluttering eye lashes at him :-|. What else does he want ?!

In some ways, dunno how true it is, but it feels like he's been looking for a reason to end things for a while, which makes me think he's never been totally happy with me :(. I did tell my mum that and she quite bluntly told me not to think like that but I can't help it. She also thinks he's going to realise what he's done and will want to make up soon. HMM.

the flowers are from, Jamie, (don't think tom has figured this out yet). Hes both our now, so called 'friend' from school who's been acting a bit creepy recently and I've had to put him straight a few times when he's got a bit touchy or said something. I'm gonna talk to him tomorrow to make him realise what's happened, coz I'm not flattered! And I don't like the way ( i think) it makes me look as in big headed or vain or something coz I'm not. the feeling is not mutral, in the slightest :-/.

So tomorrow at school is going to be awkward it's been really hard to not text him or call tom and not miss him. I kinda want to see him tomorrow and kinda don't and want to avoid him! Which is going to be interesting coz our friends have kind of merged into one group.

My dad (weirdly) is nearly upset as I am, been getting lots of random 'dad hugs', think he's practising his sympathy skills coz normally he wouldn't know what to say! And sis has been camping out on my bedroom floor since Saturday, she insists that floor is comfy, strange little person but its appreciated :) .

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Bear with, INCREDIBLY busy, but - parents/great news! - Tom, 'over' my a*se, HA-HA, precisely the opposite - more tomorrow(ish).

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Very good... say I've noticed some software changes or is just me?

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'Big/Lengthy' people = big/lengthy relationship = big/lengthy Time Out after a fight = "Time Out aka Separation is magic!"
'Little/Brief' people = little/brief relationship = little/brief Time Out after a fight = "Time Out aka Separation is magic!"

He's only giving you a slight thrashing on an open country road at this point, anyway. See, he's sniffed the upholstery, likes the interior and seats, the design, the sound of the engine, the sound of the payment plan, warranty, parts & service on offer, present and future extras/add-ons on offer, the car's design performance spec on paper. Now is taking the car out of the showroom, along different types of roads under all sorts of different conditions...this part of the journey, called, How well does "she" perform and hug the road "when"...? Does her engine start making weird whining noises? How much of a thrashing can "she" handle (so I pre-know what would happen in, say, some emergency situation that required really hoofing it?)...

...USING surface 'stuff' as his excuse and landscape, in the form of:

"New Relationship Rule: we do not allow opposite-sex singletons any leverage whatsoever, so we just don't go there. We appreciate what it says about some so-called friend if s/he would even *think* about trying to mar or destroy what was perfectly pleasing relationship that, they could easily tell, were affording us happiness.

Did I tell you about the very tall, dark and handsome SNAKE who, while getting his *family but not crowd-of-mates sized takeaway!, tried to completely out-of-the-Blue come onto me in front of friends in an Indian Restaurant not so many years back, and how I sent him packing ("how verreh DARE hyou!") with a witty retort? (Well, everyone else in the restaurant thought so, anyway...note to self, turn the volume down, note 2 to self 2, only joshing).

Oh, wait. I just did.

Protect and preserve your integrity *every* *single* *time*, certainly if you realise that's what you're doing and why. Healthy cores are what MAKE the shiny Red outside of an attractive apple, n'est pas. And who the hell wants attention from someone who has no thought for your happiness, just his?

So anyway... You wouldn't accept the rule (probably because he didn't communicate the what and why effectively enough when 'under fire' of a present threat). So you thought he was trying to get something for him and him alone. Nope. Sometimes he needs your help and cooperation to protect the pair of you. But there are ways of asking (for a normally articulate chap).

Ah, but NOT if you're a scientist and fancy replicating an event. And NOT if you lack the type of imagination that allows you to understand by insight, so have to (mini) re-enact...get in the dressing-up box, including the same shoes (smaller). His style was wrong (lacked sauveness and detailed enough reason and explanation) but the attitude is intelligent and sensible ("Our precious relationship, all trespassers will be shot on sight!"). And that's the main thing. Thing about if he hadn't minded? NOW you're in trouble?!

And now he's added the 'how much do you want and need me' test. "Oh, I'm no good for you, I think...I should bow out and (blah-blah)" / "Noooo, dooon't, aaaaargh, you are, mummyyyyy!!!!", you're supposed to say.

Course he's "insecure". He's won a Lambhourgini. I used to own a Royal Blue & Gold Scooby Doo Imprezza Turbo with Gold Alloys and personalised plate, Pro-Drived by 17.5%. Yeh. EFFING insecure, I was! That's how it works.

Fluttering your lashes, so to speak, does not prove your INTEGRITY. As I say, there's nothing wrong with your headlamps, grille,...bodywork and surface interior. But now he's got to look under the bonnet and *test* by activating and applying what's under the bonnet. That simple.

(Doesn't suspect Jamie, ha-ha! Even I knew, even before reading further down, and I ain't your bf.) Doesn't matter what the bloke's name is, anyway. And fluttering lashes prove only that you have lashes that's THAT going to help him on his death bed ("Want me to turn my mini-fan on, Tom?") :-D Or, 'The kids are going mental! / Don't worry, I'll flutter my lashes at them, that oughda do it!'. You 'nana.)

Here's a great plan to share with Tom: Tom takes those flowers, hands them back to Jamie, and looking both coquettish and guilty, puts his hand gently on Jamie's upper arm and says, 'I really do appreciate the amazing flattery, but unfortunately [1] I'm already happily taken and [2] don't want to alarm my partner for no good reason'.

:-D I would.

So it's just a sign he's thinking and already starting to operate according to the longer-term, despite he's not a very good sales (concept) pitcher.

(PS: Sis is just returning the favour. As are mum and dad and then dad (extra). He ain't daft, either....(cough!) left important documents, don't you dare look, etc. They were just thickened at the time enough to have missed what you were up to and why (for the power of good *for all*).)

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PS: Should have added: you can have opposite sex single friends again (maybe) (probably won't want them by then, unless they're paired off as well) *after* the Honeymoon/Foundation-building period. *IF* you're serious, even just today/for now, about Tom (because this is how Seriouses behave, see?). Certainly once it's not just a case of 'him I don't trust, her I'm not sure yet'. Because rejecting the flowers- the ADVANCE - is one of the things that build that very trust. He can then enjoy being one of those blokes who sits back, observing and thinking, 'Haaaa, every bloke wishes they had my Lambhourgini, look. But only I've got the keys and they're one-off unique keys so they can't even replicate them, let alone steal them, haaaaaaah'.

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But (PS), he does have to, meanwhile, simultaneously be proving his own integrity, etc. to you. Never forget that. It's a TWO-way test-drive. Which is where too many women fall down, 'Oh, it's so pretty, I LOVE Pink, and it SOUNDS alright, plus I can park it easily...yeah, I'll take it - here's my heart and may I have my receipt, please (I'm really clever, look, I remembered to ask for the receipt)'.

If ever you need to (doubt it), you can remind him of this episode, can't you. ;-)

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Well, Scopsie, I wouldn't know if you'd undergone software changes so - can't help ya, I'm afraid.

[rotten tomatoes]

But you could always try asking the programming guru that is Richard? He might appreciate some end-user feedback, never know til you try? :-)

Not being difficult, just being busybusybusybusybusy (someone else has to pick my nose these days).

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Ah ok got it thanks :D

It took Tom a few days to approach me and admit that he didn't actually want to break up and that he was miserable with his decision. I didn't let him off the hook straight away, he put us both through over a weeks worth of anxiety and stress, which was not cool. But it's all sorted now.

I didn't say anything to Jamie at first (my mum told me not to be too mean to him) I just let him realise for himself what had happened. it was obvious coz to start with tom and I were distancing our selves from each other at school and were not acting like a couple. I waited for Jamie to come to me to find out what was going on, which he did and I then told him but he didn't look too apologetic :-l but he knows I'm angry with him and he doesn't like it .

Holly also came scuttling over from her new friendship group asked me if tom and I were ok, probably so she could go and feed information back to her new friends, but I didn't tell her anything. She would of loved what had gone on, it would of made her year.

Really wished I had thought of your idea :-D hehehe, I did share it with tom, he liked this idea but his response was ' I'll shove them up his f**king arse if there is a next time' *rolls eyes*. Getting him not to confront Jamie (verbally) about this has been hard coz they are meant to be friends :-/. I know I can't really control this, I'm sure tom will say something to him at some point was just trying to get him not to do it when he was so angry!

There is something else going on with tom though, which is that his dad isn't well, he didn't tell me any of this coz when it happened I was still stressed out about my mum and dad so he's kept this bottled up. In January his dad ended up in hospital coz he had a bit of a weird turn at work and his heart beat was all erratic. He's now had tests and has got to see a cardiologist and this has obviously been playing on toms mind, and it explains a few time where I noticed he was very quiet and very distracted. He has opened up to me quite a lot now though and has said he is worried sick coz his dad is older and not that fit and it has brought on a huuuuggeee fear of him loosing people he's loves. And I'm finding it hard as to what to say to him, think my dad would be more help. But I Think this somehow goes towards why he reacted the way he did, you think?

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Tell Tom, Well, shoving it up his f***ing arse (is it/does it, how does Tom know?? lol) was going to be my first suggestion but then I remembered Tom was a gentleman (;-p).

Here was my reverse Viagra to the restaurant snake:

Sid The Snake: [tap on shoulder] SORRY,...I JUST HAD to come over and say... I think you're THE most stunning [censored] I've ever seen!
Moi (loudly): The most stunning [censored] you've ever seen?! I say, how SWEET of you to "just" say so! My sex-change consultant's going to be absolutely THRILLED when I "just " tell him! It's only BEEN two weeks since he did the op, see! [beam].

[cue sniggers and one quickly-stifled "HWAH!" from adjacent tables...although it could have been a duck that the chef had bought a bit on the fresh side and had got loose?]

Old me (in my 20s), on the other hand, would probably have said, HOW DARE YOU, WHO THE UCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, MORE TO THE POINT, WHO THE UCK DO YOU THINK *I* AM, WHAT'S THIS SHINY THING ON MY LEFT HAND, EH [I used to wear a fake wedding band when between squeezes] - DIDN'T YOU CLOCK IT, MR MAGOO?...BEEN SO LONG SINCE YOU HID YOURS IN YER POCKET YOU'VE FORGOTTEN WHAT ONE LOOKS LIKE? WANT I BRING IT CLOSER FOR YA? ..............[half an hour later].......yeah, you do that, ya slimy git, bleugh.

No, he mustn't confront Jamie or else he'll be signalling that he feels Jamie could succeed ergo Jamie is a threat ergo Jamie should persist because he's obviously in with a chance. I'm with you: don't *ever* take action when emotionally roused. Wait until you're calm again. That's why Spock's cleverer than Cap'n Kirk.

Yeah, some friend. But like I said before, he might not even fancy you that much or at all. Or he does but that wasn't what motivated him. Not wanting to lose his friend and 'biz partner' might have been his primary concern. Or lots of elements all bundled together, including wanting to measure himself against Tom/aspiring to be Tom. And/or bored and lacking any challenge. Whatever... You're too gorgeous, Tom's too gorgeous - what can I say?

Nah, it's flattering to the pair of you, equally, I wouldn't worry about it.

Aw, sorry to hear about Tom's da. :-( Hope he's doing better now?

Did he? Put it on the backburner for your sake? Aw, there you go (again) - what a gent. And yes, of course it was a causal factor, certainly in terms of that corking of stress escaping out with the at the first fright (Jamie on the prowl). That sort of thing makes *anyone* feel *very* insecure. In fact, Scopes could tell you - his beloved mum has dementia. :-(

You don't have to say anything, really, you just have to listen and generally be a huggy rock. Or help keep his mind off things. Or better yet, ASK him what he needs. I'd plump for the last one, that way you can't go wrong. :-)

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sorry for the late reply, I've been ill and not felt like doing much till today.

My dad (and puppy) moved back in this weekend, I got my family baaaack :-D . so far the parents seem pretty happy and relaxed from what I can tell ...its only day 3 but they are doing all the things they used to do no awkwardness, just a bit weird seeing my dad every day. But I'm happy and the sibs are happy (Y) I think we are just slightly shocked that this has actually happened and when we didn't think it would. Let's just hope neither of them f*** it up.
Fat lady can sing now, I'll order the fat suit and ear plugs for you guys so you don't have to listen to my singing :P.

Haha that's funny about the restaurant snake, wish I was that quick in thinking. Would of liked to of witnessed it :-D.

With Jamie after he hadn't been that apologetic I nearly told him to forget open mic night from now on, teaching him guitar and this wedding we gotta do in April but that would of been a bit stupid coz we're getting paid quite a lot and I it would of made me look like right b*tch and probably would of escalated things, so nah just, just distancing myself from him a bit is enough he getting, hes getting message in whatever's way he's taking it.

Tom's dad, hmm not too good, he's been told by doctors he needs to loose weight and that hes already at high risk of heart attack coz of all the tests he's had done. He's Been sighed off work too coz he's drives all over the place and when I have seen him he's doesn't look very happy +0(. so things are a bit tense at toms house and I think to get space tom prefers to come to my house, when we normally go to his, more quieter. His dad is not that willing to do anything yet as in exercise and diet, think tom has tried to get him to go on walks but he's refusing, which is frustrating/worrying him (and his mum). I did ask tom what he needs and he said just wants to be close to home in case something happens, fair enough really... his mind set is not that positive at the moment, he just thinks the worst is going to happen and I'd prob be the same too if my dad was being that stubborn :-/.

Aww, scopes that's sad about your mum :( hope things are ok with her at the mo.

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Lily I was just going to respond here sorry I've been out of the loop for a while. Glad to hear that the fat lady's getting closer. I've been quite busy with my outside renovation. Trying to make serious progress before it gets over 110 degrees.

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BTW as of now its status quo with my mum. So we're good, and if things to take a turn for the worse we're prepared.

Thanks for your concerns Lil

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HAPPY ENDING - WOOHOO!!! :-) :-) :-)

I'm absolutely chuffed, despite delirious with lack of sleep (you won't notice, LOL).

OOH, JUST REMEMBERED! Does that mean I can have my £50 now? It was £50 we bet, wasn't it? Or was it £100?

["madeyapanic!", LOL......karate-chop me later]

Sorry about Tom's da, though. :-( I'm sure he just needs to get his head around to it all in his own time, though, tell Tom; When, not If. It is rather a gargantuan shock, after all, needs a mini-grieving process all its own, does that one. What would help, however, would be to subtly - *subtly* - start to mention the many positives of his losing weight and getting fitter, a la, 'Ooh, just thought, dad!...when you lose weight you'll be able to do X, won't you?'. There must, surely, be some or other activity(s) his dad had been wishing he could still do, were it not for the excess weight, etc? Maybe something "father and son" in nature? Whatever, just something to look forward to and focus on? If it were me, I think I'd organise a whip-round among the rellies and friends, enough, say, to fund a fortnight's (healthy but appealing) getaway for he and Tom's mum if he hits some certain realistic target? Again, some non-instant but still highly effective, wholly achievable incentive with real "yeh-yeh-yeh" value in his dad's eyes? (Just a tip.)

So I'm curious to know what track is your Fat Lady singing, Lils - pray tell? :-)

Re quick thinking: As my pastiche per age/stage illustrated (pay attention at the back, there, please?), practise makes perfect. Lots 'n lots 'n lots. Why - did you think you were the "onn-lee gor-gess thing en thuh vill-edge, Myfanwy"? ;-p

Alternatively, there's watching more stand-up comedy and quick-witted, banter-laden classics like, for example, Cheers and/or The Green Wing (timeless! both about young couples in-love experiencing trust and relational difficulties, featuring lots of game-playing, in a very pee-taking, disempowering thus quite possibly preventative way-*cough*-no reason, LOL.)

Jamie-Schmamie-Low-Down-Gamey: noted. And, good instincts again! But, also, depending on what noises Tom makes, you might want to invite him along to any of these gigs/functions, if poss? Whether or not he declines, at least it'd show confidence in a willingness to reassure on your part? Plus it would confirm to Jamie that he were on a hiding to nothing (two birds, one stone, and all that)?

Anyway...WOOHOO!!! :-)

PS Scopes: first you're experiencing software problems and now your exterior needs renovating? Oo-er, Matron! Seriously though, glad to hear your mam's doing well as well.

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Actually Soulmate I'd say we're good. Very busy with spring break here and of course this outside stuff. Lilly how are we gonna stay in touch?

Open a thread "staying in touch "

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staying it touch thread sounds like a good plan scopes (Y) will reply properly tomorrow :-D

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Ahhhhhhhhh greaaat!!! (rofl)

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Oops, sorry was meant to reply yesterday but ended up taking the sibs out coz my mum wanted to talk to my dad in private, apparently it was nothing to worry about she just wanted the space :-/. Think one of the reasons is below and I'm actually quite pleased she seems to be on the ball.

Huh, my dad is being a kn*b :-I . When he first moved back in he was being all nice and trying to be more aware if he upset or offended someone. He also wanted to start doing things with each of us individually and talked to us about it and what we could do but so far he's only followed through with my sister, and has been spoiling her a lot and she's the demanding one! But if my brother or I remind him or suggest something to do he gets snappy and it's like he doesn't want to. And For most of this week he's been in a really bad/argumentative mood and just not very approachable. It's like he's got bored of his nice act and it's feels like he was being really fake. I think he also managed to lecture me on just about everything, school work, relationship with tom (that was just embarrassing, he's so bl**dy weird and nosey !), uni. You could say he was trying to he caring in his own way but it was done in an really aggressive way and he was just picking at everything. My mum even told him to shut up at one point he was going on at me so much.
The most annoying thing is he doesn't say what's made him angry, and he gives no reassurance, like work stressing him out or something, we are just made to feel like we've done something wrong. maybe it's just nothing, maybe he just likes being moody, and so maybe he needs to spend a week on his own again to remind himself what it's like to be alone! Grr :-| Don't like him at the moment! Rant over :)

Yep, tom has started made it very clear he's NOT happy with just me and Jamie going alone to this wedding thing together. I'm pleased you said that and I've been waiting for him to say something, otherwise I might of moaned at him for not trusting me :-/. Tom surggested he would drive but his words were 'Jamie can get the bus', it's like an hours drive away (jamie can't drive) but I think he was joking :-/, if he wasn't then he clearly like to make things difficult...

He liked the ideas you had for his dad :-D and I think he has very stubly started saying things to him. He has also started to cook his dad healthy meals too coz he mum tried to put his dad on a smoothie diet, which didn't go down well, did look gross. And er....he is teaching him how to skate board, not out in public, in the garden where there are fall into, it has happened. :-/. tom seems to think it's a step in the right direction to getting his dad to do other things and apparently it's showing him sport can be fun...this is coming from him who decided it was a really good idea to skate board down a really big hill, lost his balance and ended up in a&e with a broke his collar bone, was a while ago, but still he always has an injury from skate boarding and his mum is freaking out everytime and I just don't watch! Tom also liked the idea of a holiday once his dad hit goal he's got like a million relatives so that wouldn't be a problem, but he was then like 'I want to go on holiday too, let's go on holiday in the summer!' Yeah I can see that one going down well with my misable git of a dad.

I think at one point soulmate you bet your house, somewhere up there ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Ermmm, Would you accept two air fifty pound notes ? :D

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Hey Lils!

Was dad always like this?...even a bit? Or at least since his work pressure upped? Or is this a brand new development? And, since she'll have had it by now - did your mum's talk with him improve matters at all?

Re Tom: no, I expect he wasn't happy, and I'm unsurprised he wants Jamie to get the bus (or flying monkey). I mean, this 'business colleague' of yours *has* overtly and brazenly come onto you and only quite recently, knowing you were happily taken and meanwhile having always presented himself as a friend of the relationship as well as Tom's (yes?); I mean, that's a slap round Tom's chops with a White glove, that is!

If someone challenges you to a duel, you don't tend to offer to give them a lift to the duelling site at your petrol-expense, making for an at best discombobulating, even cringe-making journey experience or, at worst, re-insulting and re-infurating one (by which I mean, subtle vocal liberties and flirting and/or subtle insults aimed under your radar at Tom...that sort of thing).

So tell me why you think Tom, in taking you up on your PEACE offering of getting to reassuringly chaperone you and get to show Jamie your solidity as a couple (and remember, this is a one-off because of Tom's extenuating stress circumstance, i.e. dad's health scare), should have to provide door-to-door chauffeuring for the person who tried to ruin his, yours, and your relationship's life as 'all three' know it? I mean, never mind that you wouldn't have lowered yourself to having succumbed to Jamie's (cough) charms and can 'defend' and assert yourself perfectly well - that's not the point. The point is Tom having received empathetic and cooperative permission from you to get to BASICALLY show Jamie that any further such trying it on would be a waste of his time anyway....because you love thus empathise to that sensitive level, with Tom, not Jamie. Including which of the two gets to enjoy calm and comfort during the long journey down. Berbom. It's a loyalty thing, in other words.

Alternatively, just reverse the entire event by pretending the Jamie figure was one of your girl friends having tried to kiss Tom behind your back, leaving a lipstick mark on his neck for you to find hours later...and next you know, although impressively-placatingly having been told out of consideration of your wellbeing (peace of mind) that you can accompany Tom, you're then being asked and expected to give the "beeping-beep-beep-beep!" a lift down there(!). Presumably at your expense(!). Potentially forced to listen to her (or even just feel forced to stay vigilant and listen out for, just in case), potentially subtly yet not-so-subtly trying to chat Tom up (all over again)? And ditto any slights and insults aimed under Tom's radar at you to knock your confidence? (It could happen with someone who's - let's not forget, *already* proven to have far too much front to be healthy, could it not?)

As I see it, it's all Tom's prerogative of decision, all of it. HE DID NOTHING WRONG, JAMIE DID (AND, UNWITTINGLY MAYBE, BUT - YOU ALMOST COOPERATED AND WISH TO SHOW YOUR REGRET AND ALLEGIANCE). So Tom's the one who's 'owed' THIS olive branch. Because a chunk was taken out of his self-esteem and pride. But your olive branch is in danger of being spoiled by the fact it might come with a giant, stinging, slimy maggot attached. How likely would you be willing to take it?

Anyway, how was Jamie intending to get down there before he knew Tom were coming? SEE WHAT I'M SAYING? Even if it was going to be you driving - only Jamie himself scuppered that opportunity/courtesy so, if Jamie wants to kick himself, let him...that'll learn him! So who told you Jamie was relying so heavily on this lift? Jamie?

More to the point, though: Why on earth would Jamie want to put himself through that cringe-worthily uncomfortable journey experience, anyway??? RSvP.

I do not trust Jamie, Sam(antha)-I-Am. Jamie ruined his chance at a free lift, nobody else. Let Jamie suffer his own consequence by having to take the train/bus (or the broomstick) or get one of his *own* friends to chauffeur him.

But that's just how I see it. Particularly as - otherwise, what punishment or lesson has Jamie had as would in the process equalise Tom's resultant sense of violation and injustice?

Re Tom's dad: Smoothie that didn't go down too well. :-D Did Tom's mum maybe make it using a potato masher instead of an electric blender?

Teaching him how to skateboard? Cool! Why ever not?!

Oh - bushes is why not, LOL.

But (back to seriousness) - why would your dad have a problem with you going abroad with Tom and his fam? Do you mean, because he'd have the usual family holiday plans which included you?

What about Tom's family - how do they feel about it?

PS: Air £50 notes? What, like, from Airland?

(no, you stop, lol)

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Soulmate I knew you'd get right on this.
And I'm glad you did we need to keep in touch :-|

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Arrgggh that was supposed to be a :-)

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Yeah, my dad was a bit like this before, but it seems to be on a whole new level, where it’s constant and he’s being aggressive. My mum’s talk didn’t do anything, and apparently he was really dismissive when she told him she was getting really bored with how he was acting and his bad mood. He didn't change over the weekend. On Saturday, I asked him if he wanted to do anything but he just said ‘no’, so I left him alone, went did my own thing and then found out he had taken my sister to the cinema and he didn’t bother to ask if anyone else wanted to go. Felt a bit personal!
Then yesterday we went out for lunch for mothers day, my mum was really p*ssed off by this point and told him if he was going to stay in his foul mood then she didn’t want him to come. I didn’t really want him to come either but my sis kicked up a fuss, so he came and it was such a waste of time because his attitude didn’t change and he was just firing really negative sh*t at each of us, like one after the other (bet she regretted wanting him to come). My mum was defending herself and each of us, it was almost embarrassing, I’m just pleased it was quite busy where we went and if it wasn’t for mother’s day I would of left.
Then went round toms in the evening and at about 8.30 he called me telling me to ‘get home now because it was a school night’… it’s never been a problem before and I always make sure I’m home by ten anyway, not like I stay out till 2 am :-I, so I took my time and was he waiting for me when I got home where he shouted at me for taking ages to come home and I argued back but also tried to find out what was going on with him but he ended up slamming the lounge door in my face. He's so nice. And that is what it’s been like for the last week and I have a feeling it’s going to be the same this week.
The only time it’s nice at home is when he’s at work. And I don’t think it is work, he likes it at the moment coz he’s still seeing less patients and doing other stuff.

Yep, I can see what your saying :-). I was going to drive to the
wedding venue, I didn’t really want Jamie in my car either coz he wasn't about to offer any petrol money he's a taker and he would just assume he'd get a lift with whoever I was getting a lift if I wasn't driving. I’d just rather we be there together and get it over with coz these people (I know its there big day) are demanding! And if he's not there, I'm a bit useless on my own.
Oh, Jamie would probably quite happily sit in tom’s car and wind him up coz he’s a cocky/very self assured idiot. Loves himself a bit. But tom probably would kick him out at any point on the motorway or in the middle of nowhere.
I have also told Jamie I’m not doing any more open night mics or anything else after this coz I can't be bothered and I'm starting to teach little kids piano and guitar after school, which is a nicer way to earn money.

Dunno how toms mum is making theses smoothies or what’s in them but tom offered to start having them with his dad if he liked them and he just about swallowed some of it and was like ‘that’s disgusting’. And toms dad was like I want to eat real food, not mush! Tom seems a little bit more calmer about it now still wants to be close by and that's partly coz my dad knows the consultant his dad saw and my dad (when he was in a better mood) reassured tom that this consultant likes exaggerate the truth a little.

Holiday – tom meant just the two of us going somewhere, which I'm not too sure about, so my dad would probably be like 'no way'. Normally do go away as a family but who knows this year!

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(Yeah, sorry, Scopes, but I've had to start winding the active-posting side of things down a lot for a while because it's prepare to villa-hunt and house-sell time, meaning, I'm also about to have the workmen in (oy-oy!). I'm so busy, now, it's just not funny!)

Lils, he seems to be acting out a sense of his, that everyone else is 'against him' somehow. He might be having a belated reaction to having had to (in which case, it was real) turn down the open job offer now that the reconciliation's 'safely out of the way', the disappointment/readjustment (mini grieving process) having moved one step to the front of the queue. You need to get him on his own, put your hand on his shoulder-blade and give it a pat/rub while asking something (almost in a whisper) along the lines of, 'What's WRONG, lately, Dad [better yet, whatever parental pet name for him]? Why are you acting so unhappy and only wanting to spend time with [blister]? Can't you just tell me?' Alternatively, just follow him into an empty room, go up to him, and, saying absolutely nothing, give him a huge bearhug and back stroke-pat (and don't let him try to wriggle out of it - show him yer muscles). *Or* pick a flower (daff?) and leave it on his study desk. Just something. He appears to be hurting *a lot*, Lils. And that's not right, considering he did do the not un-meaty, right thing by backing down. In fact, he might consider it as heroic...yet didn't receive a hero's welcome?

I mean, I don't think one can tell a hurting person one's BORED with their hurt, or basically threaten to exclude them from a family outing, if they haven't got to the bottom of it - which ***clearly*** they haven't if the behaviour's continuing or even worsening - can you? I mean, if his source of unhappiness has basis - even if it's a hugely delayed reaction from months ago - that would hurt *really* deeply. Plus, labelling him bad-tempered right before getting in the car would just exacerbate his already bad mood. So I don't call that very empathetic behaviour, do you? She sounds like she's dealing merely with the What and not the Why...sweeping whatever it is under the carpet.

He might be going through the male menopause and feeling hyper-sensitive for all we know? (Has he been complaining of being cold or turning the heating up/wearing more clothes than usual, lately?)

But it does also sound like he feels like he's lost his pack status, authority and the normal control that goes with it (and clearly he originally was after an elevation in that sense, hence the practise move). I think his sense of self-esteem needs to be fed again, I don't think the card, etc., or being back home again, was enough. In which he must have been too 'hungry', almost starving, to begin with. Meanwhile, I think maybe the power of winning that giant round has maybe gone to your mum's head a bit too much (common reaction) and she needs to find a happier balance back to equal partners with equal pack leader status or she's in danger (again, common aftermath situation) of simply having switched boss-secretary roles, thereby *continuing* the original problem.

Er. Wait up. Do you mean slammed it in your face accidentally? More detail, please?

He was probably trying to see if he could still command your (the mini-mum's) respect. Answer: no. But he set himself up there, with that ridiculous curfew (you're not 10). So that tells me that, yes, he's feeling *very* sorry for himself (in which case it could be because no-one else is or because little blister's moral support isn't enough) and trying to solicit or even create evidence for how he feels (in order to feel justified rather than crazy) from the environment. IOW, he was bound to get non-compliance with such an OTT curfew time, but in his eagerness to 'take your temperature', he made damn sure he'd get a meaty-enough reading in one, fell swoop by inserting it too far, so unwittingly created a negative self-fulfilling prophesy. (I'd put him at DefCon3. So's you know: 1 is situation normal/person normal, 5 is screeching, headless ape. He's feeling utterly wretched right now, probably feels like crying a lot but is converting that to the (yawn) "manly" version called angry, bulshy and over-domineering/aggressive, trying to over-milk the Disciplinarian aspect of the fatherly/parental positional role because Decision-Maker has been hogged by mum.)

At the same time, I think your mum's being hard and insensitive (for her) due probably to her still having undischarged, left-over resentment in her which she doesn't know what to do with.

They hurt each other more than they'd bargained for, I reckon, and are now too nervous to properly spill their feelings and show their hearts to one another. They've lost a portion of trust. It'll take time. Unless you want to help speed it up?

You could easily approach either of them, now, though, couldn't you. I know your first attempt with Dad didn't work (because it was entirely the wrong moment - you can't ask a man to switch immediately from anger to open, honest sharing-ness) but, that in itself was his unwitting test - to see if you'd chase after him = how badly you want Normal Dad back, how important he is. He's feeling far too vulnerable for communicating through his mouth (that way lies the danger of disappointment, rejection, etc.), and basically instead is containing it to a load of bodily and behavioural signals.


"Oh, Jamie would probably quite happily sit in tom’s car and wind him up coz he’s a cocky/very self assured idiot."

That's what I thought. I've seen the play a thousand times, see, and it's in Jamie's character's script (Act 4, Scene 3).

Well, look, here's an idea: If, in the car, you (because this is your relationship-protection show this time) hear Jamie try any dig at Tom or can see Tom tense up, trying just doing one, very loud, contrived-sounding cough, wait two beats, and then turn your head slowly, just enough to peer at Jamie out of the corner of your right eye (and keep repeating if necessary). "Cut it out!" is what that'll say. If he persists, switch to addressing all conversation only at Tom. And if that isn't enough, let Tom stop and kick him out. After all, it's only money (compared to your enviable relationship), and who cares anyway if 'your employer' is a constant trouble-maker. You need that like a fish [called Jamie] needs a bicycle!

"I'm starting to teach little kids piano and guitar after school, which is a nicer way to earn money."

Are you???? Blimey! How entrepreneurial! (And what a lovely, subtle but noticeable gesture of loyalty from you to Tom!) Impressed!!

Can't Tom's dad make his own concoctions out of whatever healthy ingredients so that he *does* like the taste? (That's a trick for getting kids to eat healthily, btw - let them be heavily involved or in-charge of making it so that they have to choose between deeming it yummy or ending up insulting and belittling the chef - they themselves! And they ain't gonna wanna do that. ;-))


Back to your dad. I'd wait a while before raising the topic. Again, not the right time. ...although it is if secretly you're hoping to get a No so as to get your dad to indirectly turn Tom down for you? But if you don't know then you're torn, meaning, there's no point in informing your parents until you better know how *you* feel about going. In fact, the fact you're *not* sure is directly married to the fact that your dad would be unlikely to say an immediate yes (see how that works?).

Anyway, why couldn't you do both holidays? Or what about Tom coming with you guys?

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Parents have been ignoring each other since Sunday and my mum has been going out with friends in the evenings this week to avoid my dad and my dad just sits and doesn't really do much :-/. It's kinda gone back to how they were when they were separated but just under one roof. All communication between them has gone. I haven't really seen or spoken to my mum much just because she's not been home much apart from the mornings. And they're not even sleeping in the same room at the moment. I know this wasn't going to be easy for them but none of this feels right, it feels like it going backwards.

Thinking about it now my mum wasn't being very empathetic and at the moment doesn't seem to want to get to the bottom of it, which is not really her, normally she cares too much but she's seems to of hardened a bit. she seems to be quite happy to just ignore him! And no I don't think it has been regonised by any of us that he has backed down and not take that job offer.

I haven't tried speaking to my dad yet. But I liked the idea of picking some flowers from the garden and I put them on my dads desk in his study because he likes gardening. when my dad saw them he asked me hopefully if my mum had put them there, I told him no, I did and he looked a bit disappointed but since then he's been ok-ish with me and the sibs and he's surgested going out tomorrow just me and him, where I'm hoping he'll open up a bit and be more willling to talk. If not I'll wait a bit.

From where I was standing slamming the door wasn't accidental but it's the first time he's done that. He ranted at me for coming back 'too late' and went on about how he and my mum are very relaxed when I go out at the weekends but on a school night he wants me home earlier *rolls eyes* and I was like but it's not even 9.30! Then I asked what was going on and why was he being so angry and he just said 'don't even go there' and I questioned him more and that's when he slammed the door :-/. That was a definate 'f off' and I might of pushed it a bit. He had been on his own, my mum went out as soon as we got home from lunch on Sunday so he had been alone for a while probably thinking alsorts :-/. But he hasn't followed through his stupid new rule of being home stupidly early when I did go out one night this week.
Understanding my dad a bit more now as in why he's being like this and almost feel sorry for him (even if he has been unreasonable and mean) and don't like the fact he's hurting and my mum is ignoring! so tonight was Chinese and movie night with my dad, tom and the mums out again. I was hoping she'd see us and be tempted to stay but She still went :-(.


Tom had great pleasure in telling Jamie that he was doing the driving to the wedding and has only agreed to give him a lift so that we are both there together not because he's a 'friend' and he will be getting looks from me if he winds tom up. Jamie's face and reaction was surprised and I also him to offer petrol money too. Sorted.

Yep I think toms dad could sort out his own food I just don't think he's trusted by toms mum into sticking to healthy and he'll push the the boundaries a bit. Tom and his dad are quite similar in personality (or this is just a boy thing) they like to test things sometimes for fun to see what kind of reaction they get.

Piano and guitar lessons wasn't my idea, but dunno why I hadn't thought of it before coz word is getting round! my mums friend has 7 kids and she wants them ALL to learn an instrument and asked me if I would teach them :-/. I like teaching the older ones but her two youngest are too young, in my opinion, only just four, and they just bash the keys on my piano +0( and run around the room... but the mum is very relaxed about it 'as long as they are listening to music', er not feels like I'm just babysitting them for half an hour. Think I need to get some teaching skills from my mum!

Ohhh both holidays...I think I might need two by then. i like the idea of tom coming with us on holiday (Y) and getting used to the idea of just the two of us going somewhere I think I just need to think about it and ended up thinking why the hell not!

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Ohhhh LIL sorry to hear that things have digressed a bit. It sounded like things were going so well a few months back with your mum and dad.

I must ponder on this

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Hey Lils,

[Insert broken-record snippet about lateness]


1a. Mum had gone out again WHERE?

1b. Did your dad used to be the one who'd go out on his tod, in the years running up to the recent separation? Or did he tend to frown on your mum having girlie nights out, etc?...or simply, tend to commandeer the lion's share of her time and attention?

1c. When you say 'Chinese and movie night', was that a family tradition or one started only with your dad during the separation?

2. When you say 'not accidental', do you mean he meant to slam the door to "make you stop" but *hadn't* intended it to hit you in the face? Or are you trying to tell me he knew it would make impact? Where in the face - nose? Did you have a nosebleed or anything? Did he say anything later as an apology (or 'say' it with any behaviour/gesture later)?

3. *How* far did you push? And be brutally honest with yourself. Put it this way, do you have lingering feelings of hurt and resentment or still feel disturbed by the event?

4. Both of your parents are clearly very (veryveryveryvery) stressed. Have you spoken to them or either of them since you posted, and what, if anything, is their attitude at this point to the idea of couples counselling or even enlisting the help of an online relationship coach (guru)?


Of course he didn't follow through, he was only trying to get your attention and create an excuse to have a go at you "for not loving him/being on mum's side (i.e. not his)", etc. and generally let off steam. An insecurity wobble "manlied-up" (not), basically. Already-somewhat-emotionally-immature now in a foetal-position-rendering-situation, remember? Same goes for your mum, that's what they've got most in common, IMO. I did say 'welcome to so-called adulthood', right? But, yet again, it's not fair on you guys, to make you live under that kind of atmosphere.

Lils, if I were your fairy godmother, granting you complete license to do whatever you damn well pleased in order to get them to start actually sorting this nonsense rather than power-playing in front of you minis - what would your measure(s) look and sound like?

If you can't think, here's what I'd do: dig out a family photo of when you three were really small and leave it on your mum's desk or dressing table. It'll work the same way as the flowers.

In other words: they want everything acted-out? THEY GOTTIT! ;-)

...which is the least of what I'd like to do to them (grr). In fact, I'd really like to put them both - same time preferably! (I'm ambidextrous so I could 'n all) - over my knee and spank their butts until they glowed! Would you let me, though? LOL

Interesting, though, isn't it - the fact your dad was hoping they were from your mum? So she's the one that's p*ssed *him* off, then?


Re you & Tom:

1. Did he??? Did you??? Tell that to Jamie's face???

Yikes! :-D

Nah, only joking. But, heyyyyyyy, liking the 'power couple super-assertiveness', there! Now the only uncomfortable one during that whole journey will be Jamie. As it should be (action-consequence).

Go and parent the world, you two, you're clearly qualified! :-)

2. Similar, as in, both try-it-on merchants who'll push buttons and give the fences a good testing push/kick? Yep, that is indeed typically male and nothing to write home about, albeit, saying that, it's never (talking generally) the What per se, but the *To What Degree* (too much being abusive, not enough being equally abusive) and *Where*: As a female nearest-and-dearest, you want the "urrr!", directed to a purely sufficient degree, most of the time at those (that deserve it) outside of the nest. Assertive is far more sexy than disproportionately aggressive, is it not. :-)


Re your new career:

"Piano and guitar lessons wasn't my idea, but dunno why I hadn't thought of it before coz word is getting round! my mums friend has 7 kids and she wants them ALL to learn an instrument and asked me if I would teach them :-/. I like teaching the older ones but her two youngest are too young, in my opinion, only just four, and they just bash the keys on my piano Sick and run around the room... but the mum is very relaxed about it 'as long as they are listening to music', er not feels like I'm just babysitting them for half an hour. Think I need to get some teaching skills from my mum!"

Ooh. Fate moves in mysterious ways (not really, if you're used to it). That's a Karma Kredit if ever I saw one. For having been so good. :-)

The 'beelzebubsters' (;-)) are for breaking you in in record time, I reckon, (meaning, something really good is brewing, something for which this condensed training will stand you in excellent stead yet without which you'd fail, you wait and just watch your space....)

But you've given me an idea (if you like it - grab it quick because, remember, we're 'in public' so someone else might pip you to the post):

Babysitting and music-lesson/-play in-one. For toddlers up to (before they get lippy)-years-of-age. Think about it. Never been done (I don't think?). Definite market for it, for the time-short exec set. Justification for charging greater than a pure music lesson, ditto pure babysitting (emphasis usually on sitting). The career and cultural parents, etc., will love it! You've got your Tumbletots so...How's about something like ('scuse the brainstorming)?.....

Sonateenies (and Sonateens)
Play Time
Nanna Joanna [the latter's Cockney Rhyming for "piana")
Put A Lid On It [ha-ha]
Kidenza [a play on Cadenza]
Tickled Plink!
SolEtude [it'd be safe to assume your clientele were themselves musical and could instantly work out the multi-levelled meanings contained in this one]
Tinkle Tykes
Tempo Tots (Teens)
Strings 'n Things
(shambady shtop meh!)

Obviously, you'd have to find a way to pepper the 'lessons' with freeplay, a run around the garden, snack time, reading them a story (babysitter duties..sorry, *good* b/sitter, I should say!) as well as formulate a lot of short little tunes that podgy hands with practically zero attention span could handle, but - what do you think? Piano lessons (London and SE) £15/hour. Babysitting £8 (SE) £11 tops (London). Total £23/hour, shave some off to represent a bargain for the two services combined...say, £18/hour (with a discount for single parents/divorcees)? From the client's POV it beats straight babysitting hands-down, right? Also beats straight music lesson (for the fact that mum normally is expected to be present throughout), right? [all the mothers yell, "GOD, YES!!!", LOL]

Or could you and your mum partner up and combine your skills? That way, you could charge even higher *and* could give each other much-needed breaks within the schedule?

(After all of that - you're going to come back and say no/ugh!, now, aren't you, LOL.)

Anyway, RSvP on the above Qs. (And tell Tom I said, 'Bond...Tom Bond' :-D)

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Hello (Fairy godmother),

Answers to questions: my mum had gone to a friends house...I'm assuming a girly friend. My dad never had a problem with her going out with friends before, normally he doesn't mind his own company. I think it was just because things were not ok between them and he was thinking the worst.

Movie night on a Friday was kind of a thing before, Chinese was just a bonus. Sis and I carried it on when the parents separated, then bro and dad joined in and we carried it on again as a family thing when my dad moved back in.

No, no nose bleed, he slammed the door to make me stop following him because if I am honest, I was angry (bye bye assertiveness) and throwing questions at him but don't think he meant for the door to hit me. He did actually apologise too and admitted that his anger hasn't been meant for me.

I spoke to my dad last Saturday coz we went out for a run (one of our bonding things we were meant to start doing), which lasted about ten mins when he realised how unfit he was and was quite relieved when we came across a pub...good opportunity, I thought and he was in a listening mood. He seems to think they are struggling to 'get back to normal' and my mum is tteatibg him like a kid. he was willing to change and compermise but she's apparently setting rules and not listening to anything hes suggested/wants/needs and nothing feels very balanced or fair. I think I can see why that would put him in a bad mood but I'm now trying not to take sides! He said would try and patch things up with my mum, which he did try to do on Sunday, he approached her calmly but it went in a direction I wasn't exspecting at all. My mum ended up leaving and going to my aunts *rolls eyes* and took the sibs with her too, they didn't really have a choice! she wanted me to go but I made it very clear that I thought it was pointless and splitting up the family and her leaving wasn't going to solve anything and I had things to do at home. I did try to talk her out of it and that it was unfair the sibs and I get to have another crap half term but she told me she couldn't be around my dad at the moment. So I dunno who's p*ssed off who!
They were at my aunts all week, and on Friday my aunt texted my dad and asked him to come and try and sort things out with my mum and take Harry and Sophia home because they weren't happy. He went on Saturday, and he came back looking pretty deflated with the sibs, but no mum . He told me that my mum had firstly got really angry at my aunt for telling him to come down because she didn't want to see him and she told him she doesn't want to be married to him anymore.
Sibs backed this up and said she went mad, which is really out of character for her and I'm not happy that was said in front of them :-| . I'm trying to stay calm about this because I've learnt people don't always mean what they say, just gonna wait till my mum comes home. I'm really hoping she will before next Thursday coz it's my brothers birthday and he's already anxious that she's stayed at my aunts and he thinks she's not going to bother. I'm trying to think of how to make it a nice atmosphere for him :-/.

With counselling my mum has just carried on seeing her counsellor but I don't really know what they think about marriage counselling or online. Will try bring it up.

Haha, Yeah, I'd let you spank them :-D, wouldn't be against that, would bl**dy deserve it. They wouldn't let me behave in a similar way to how they are, so why should they get away with it?

On top of all of this, tom's gran died Last week and he's pretty gutted, obviously, couldn't of really happened at a worse time with the stuff that's going on with his dad, it's knocked him again. Was really unexpected and a shock coz she was like nearly 100 but when I met her she was very with it and quite feisty and told tom I was better then 'that blonde thing' (the ex) he brought with him last time ha. One day both of us will not have family crap going on.

Yeah, Jamie's now feeling really uncomfortable :-D. After we told him, he started asking me when tom wasn't around, Why I wasn't driving anymore? Why was tom coming? And he'd have to stay in his car or go somewhere coz only we are allowed in the Venue. Whatever, he clearly wanted a reaction from me or for me to give in.
I did tell him if he didn't like he can get himself there and he was like 'no I need a lift' ...well zip it then! Will be pleased to get this wedding is out of the way.


I really like the idea of babysitting and music lessons and the idea of me and my mum joining together, I'm gonna pinch it and see what she thinks :-p . My mums friend does know that the lessons would only go up until I go to uni but I think it could also work in half terms too.

Tom (bond) likes his new name and says does he get the fast car and all the cool boy toys? 8=)

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Who you calling a fairy? ;-p

Hello Pumpkin (just made meself laff!).

Anyway, I prefer Glarey Foddermother.

Actually - neither! LOL

Where were we? Oh, yes...

1. Why are you assuming a girlie friend? (Do you even do assumptions?) What were the clues and pointers?

2. "I think it was just because things were not ok between them and he was thinking the worst."

Or because she was the one p*ssed HIM off at this point in time yet was running away rather than sorting it?

Do you think maybe because he was the one who was still sporting egg on his face, he might have 'deliberately' made a mountain out of a molehill (like he did with your toddler's curfew)? How is mum looking during all of this - really cheesed-off and/or snooty/curt, or guilty and evasive/avoidant and mock-chirpy?

Why would he be thinking the worst? Is she suddenly Mrs Ever So Sure Of Herself?...what-you'd-call swanning around, sounding and acting uncharacteristically cocky? Or is she more Mrs Not Taking Your Nonsense, like when a toddler pushes its mum too far - all clipped sentances and emotional distancing, etc?

3. Who started the movie thing, originally - her or him?

4. PHEW! Nothing to see... Just wanted to check.

5. "which lasted about ten mins when he realised how unfit he was and was quite relieved when we came across a pub...good opportunity, I thought and he was in a listening mood."

:-D for him and a thumbs-up for you for seeing and seizing the opportunity.

6. Okay, you've answered my question. Treating him like a kid. She's lost some respect (unsurprisingly). Basically he's been striking her as a kid. Well, he's going to have to re-earn it, then, isn't he. Why - what did HE think? That the recent event wouldn't/couldn't have caused any lasting damage or that bomb-blast sites don't have to be re-filled afterwards once the smoke's completely cleared? Bit naive, isn't it?

Good, then. Consequence. However, she's not being very clever about it, is she. Too obvious. It's striking his consciousness and giving him something to rail against. Much better to deliver it under-the-table (- u-t-t isn't a bad thing, it's misuse of u-t-t that's bad) so as not to insult the 'person' whilst 'educating/disciplining' the inner animal regarding negative consequences for neg actions. Yup, the power's gone to her head, hence why she's 'flaunting' her new-found power out in the open (she may as well just stick her tongue out at him and be done with it). That's not power, that's just bitter posturing. (Please can I use a wet flip-flop?)

"I think I can see why that would put him in a bad mood but I'm now trying not to take sides!"

TAKE THE SIDE OF *THE RELATIONSHIP* BY IN THE MEANTIME ALWAYS AND ONLY TAKING THE SIDE OF WHOMEVER IS RIGHT OVER WHICHEVER POINT/ISSUE. That way, you're not siding with any person, just TRUTH/RIGHT -V- WRONG/SENSIBLE & MATURE -V- NON-. And make that clear: I'm not on your side OR mum's side, I'm on Mum & Dad's side and that's the only side that exists anyway - surely?!

7. He pissed her off. With his original unilateral, giant, family-jeopardising decision. Those two couldn't bear to remain apart, found it too hard on their hearts....but because of that, they ended up trying to reconcile a smidgen too soon. That mum's flounced off (THIS TIME, NOTE!!!) (evening the playing field before recommencing the relationship properly) is not necessarily a bad thing. But what counts is (still) the willingness to try ...or to even flounce. Maybe the reconciliation was just a run-up type of sampling? Still doesn't make it fair on you three, though, does it. (When I say wet flip-flop, I do mean sales-promotion sized, just wanna make that clear.)

8. "because she didn't want to see him and she told him she doesn't want to be married to him anymore."

Rot. You're right. Said in anger doesn't count. Only calmly when in Neutral counts. So it's rot.

She's having a giant delayed reaction. Probably didn't dare let all of her high emotions spill out in the open, previously. Until it felt safe enough to. Only, when she finally tried he wouldn't let her. And there/here you go.

He doesn't want to handle the consequences of his transgression. Berbom. He'd finished reacting to it all...'ergo' he expected *mum* to put it all instantly behind her! Typical female-ignorant, confrontation-avoidant male.

9. "he's already anxious that she's stayed at my aunts and he thinks she's not going to bother."

Oh, AS IF! But you realise he's voicing that to you as a hint to remind her 'just in case'?

(Let me know if (big If) she does, though?)

10. I do think it's better and far more logical to be having couples counselling (albeit, that doesn't mean she can't continue alongside with the one-on-one). After all, this is a problem in the interaction of both of them, ergo, only one of them representing and discussing it means only half the problem to examine...bit like a court judge passing judgement after having heard only the case for the prosecution but not the defense or vice-versa. Mistrial/Mis-sentance / Mis-ID/Mis-solve. Yes, in cases where the partner refuses to attend, it's better than nothing. But it shouldn't be the first choice.

11. "They wouldn't let me behave in a similar way to how they are, so why should they get away with it?"

Beautifully put, nucleic truth, inarguable with. Maybe SAY that to them?? Sincere letter time? You and auntie write it jointly as the only other two adults in the immediate fam?


Aw. Poor Tom. Poor BOTH of you! After all, your childhood died rather abruptly, just recently, didn't it?


So WAS Tom allowed in the venue in the end?


What if the biz took off - would you still go to Uni or would you decide to do the Open Uni instead whilst building up your biz, or consider it a gap-year career? There again - why NOT just half- and end-of-term times? That, after all, is when career mums most need childcare/clubs, isn't it? PERFECT! In fact, if you were fully booked during the hols, you could end up earning such good money you wouldn't even NEED to do it full-time, you never know!


It depends whether we're talking Sean Connery or whassisface broody muscley blonde geezer (tsk - forgotten his name, can't be bothered to Google, but you know the one). But - either: Tom gets you. :-) And that's gadgets and buttons enough, tell him, LOL. And tell him: she should be mainly stirred, rarely and only gently shaken. ....and that's about it for Bond puns, puns Bond because it's OH-MY-GOD-o-clock!


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This is just going to keep going on isn't it. Let's see if we can make this thread last til December bet we can. BTW LILS i like cool boy toys fast car stuff too.

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December which year?

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Hmmmmmmmm....2018 maybe?

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I say, how incredibly unambitious! LOL

Oh, and, by the way - come the time when I'm absent for a while, doing the house and country move, guess who's going to be filling in for me? :-D

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Do tell.....

I wish we could attach pics here.
I have picture I took today at work in the parking lot of a classic triumph early 70s tr6 red complete with front bumper British flag.

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I'll give you a clue: it ain't me and it ain't Lily. :-)

PS: Ooh - British flag!


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Ummmmmm I give up MANALONE?

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Tsk/ coy, tsk.

When EVER were Susie and Mannie on this thread, eh? But, okay, here you go: IT'S YOOOOOOU.

(Now's the bit where you feign surprise, LOL)

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Awwwww c'mon.....

Well ok

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BTW Soulmate when's the country move going to start?

LILS i have a direct email connection to this thread. So if you respond or if anyone responds it's almost like texting ;-)

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Impossible to say specifically right now, but am weeks away from being able (once a few repairs and tart-up touches are done) to put this place on the market first, see what the interest and offers are, then go out there to view my shortlist of fave villas. Hopefully one will live up to the details enough to warrant making an offer/potentially placing a holding deposit. So it depends on myriad non-controllable elements. But I'd give you and Lily ample notice of my absence and for how long, no worries, and same again for my absence during the actual move and settling-in process itself. Obviously whichever choice would have to provide interweb or it'd be a no go. But, happily, most do, nowadays. :-)

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My mum came back on Tuesday but not back home she is staying with a friend, because she 'can't be at home at the moment'. Just gets better and better :-|. So if the sibs and I want to see her we have to go round her friends house, which is awkward because we don't really know her, she's a fairly new friend from my mums work. And we/I can't have a private conversation with my mum because her friend (will use the first letter of her name to make it easier) J is very defensive of my mum and hangs around and butts in with her opinions of what's going on and of my dad... her opinion of my dad is low and she doesn't even know him.
I know it's her house and she can go where ever she wants so I did try to get my mum to come out but J was like 'no, I don't think your mum should be going anywhere she's very stressed'. Wasn't suggesting running a bl**dy marathon, she can still sit and talk. It wasn't going to be just about what's going on , I was going to talk other stuff in general too (wanted to tell her about biz idea) and after a week and a bit of not seeing her I don't think there was anything wrong with that :-|. My mum didn't say anything so I'm guessing she's not ready. J might be being like this for a reason, which would mean she knows more then I do(?) but she's not very encouraging or giving any ideas in how to make things better. Don't want be rude about her but she's not helping and I think she thinks she's now involved because she's letting my mum stay with her for as long as she wants. Tell me if I'm being mean, or if another way of looking at this?

J is the same friend my mum has been going out with and who's house my mum went round on Mother's Day I know that much. My mum also seems quite influenced by her.

pleased I said to my bro that me and sis would do whatever he wanted, within reasonable distance before he had me driving far away to some geeky museum. Might of been disappointed otherwise. He decided he wanted to go to a dock yard place (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz) . He didn't want a friend to come just Tom, made it more bearable :-D. Ugh, we had to do a hours long tour on how boats were made in first World War or something obvs wasn't listening, and there was more, but bros bday, he enjoyed it (Y). Was obvious my mum and dad were not going to be together for his bday, my dad was working, to be fair he got called into work and did make it up to bro later. My mum saw bro for a bit in the morning but she didn't want to come with us, which since my dad couldn't I was kinda hoping she would. Did feel like saying fine you stay, don't worry we'll make sure H has a good day :-|.

It's a bit sh*t at the moment. Im at my aunts house, Tom is now in Cornwall and my aunt encouraged me to come stay, so I though it was a good idea and maybe we could write a joint letter like you suggested. I don't really know what else to do.

Don't think tom is too bothered if he allowed on the venue or not he'll find something. But have just thought he could have the job of 'sound/tech man' :-D .

At the moment I feel like I want to run away to uni. Like the idea of being a counsellor of some sort and like biz idea too but I think doing that in half term would work. Tom is thinking of taking a gap year he wants to see where his job he does at weekends takes him I'm not keen a long distance relationship but he doesn't seem to think it would be a problem. Hmm.

Ahhh! scopes 2018? hopefully not on my parents still :-/

Might be stupid question but What's direct email connection? How does that work?

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Being mean? GOD, no! You're observing a Red flag because there's nothing wrong and everything right with your vision!

As long as she wants, eh? Huge Scooby clue.

Find a way to signal to your mum to proceed with caution. This friend sounds as if she's trying to do more than curry favour, and actually take ownership of your mother. (Over-Lonely, Love-Bombing woman alert!) Rent is being extorted in the form of a currency called, BE MINE. I mean, that is not protection, that is CONTROLLING, DOMINATING, TAKING OVER, COMANDEERING, TAKING GROSS LIBERTIES past the mere point of meddling...and your mother is vulnerable (too distracted to realise its weight or magnitude) right now. Talk to her straight, say you miss being alone with her, just she and you, and (if you want) ask her if you and she can start to have a routine girlie evening or lunchdate per week. Say you need help with clothes shopping if you have to and need her advice and wisdom about Tom (normal stuff but you - cough! - haven't got a clue).

Saying that, your mother is not stupid nor a totally helpless child. So if someone other than herself tries to tell her your father is Purple with Green spots whereas she knows for a fact he's flesh coloured but with a few blackheads, it won't 'ping' in her head as true and she'll dismiss it. Her state of vulnerability just means it'll get sneaked in past her conscious 'doorman' to her jello and into her Pending tray where it'll sit until the top in-tray is clearer, WHEREUPON her consciousness will properly read it, realise it's a load of rubbish and file it accordingly into the 'round filing cabinet that sits on the floor'. It's just an issue by way of TIME TAKEN to get to that point. But still an issue that could cause side effects. However, during this lunch or drink, you could say, 'By the way, why does J sound like she despises dad so seethingly much? What did he ever do to *her*?'.

However, Lily, there's another possibility, which is... Who's influencing *whom*? That J, in grossly overdoing the instant loyalty, is quoting the opinion of your mother according to the reading-out of the rap-sheet when the two of them are in private... mum just naturally painting him over-Black out of anguish and anger... J not understanding or appreciating (i.e. choosing to ignore) mere, cathartic VENTING, thus rendering herself as thick as pig sh*t by (gleefully) taking everything at surface value and treating it as if gospel...because it suits her personal, selfish agenda to. Still/whatever, if you ask mum that perfectly rightful, observational question - i.e. just as part of interested chit-chat between two gals - then you'll be subtly but effectively getting her to examine how out-of-proportion her present attitude and sentiments are, by repeating it in summing-up fashion.

However, I can understand perfectly your outrage at this woman. I mean, how *dare* she play uninvited, personal security guard toward YOU, your mum's own child! FOR WHAT PURPOSE? In case you get a knife out and stab her? Ridiculous! That's not protection, that's competition and possessiveness. I would have felt like decking her at that point! In fact, I'd be on the phone to Auntie before you could say, 'Help, I suspect mum's about to unwittingly get caged like some bloody pet hamster!'.

Her sister will not stand for that, you watch. But if that fails - relay the incident to your dad.

However.... this J can't get her way unless your mother *lets* her. So you have the option to try the girlie chit-chat approach first to see if it'll snap her out of her daze, enough to take a longer, harder look at this "oh-so-helpful colleague".

Re your bro: Did you lose the start of that paragraph? Well, anyway, I'm assuming that was his birthday outing? That was very kind and self-sacrificial of you (in subjective principle because I personally would have found that tour fascinating, SOZZIEEEE, lol).

Ahh, just Tom. That's nice. :-) Because - yes, he did want a friend along, but he wanted that friend to be Tom. Tom's in! :-) Tom will now start to become bro's confidant elect.

"Was obvious my mum and dad were not going to be together for his bday, my dad was working, to be fair he got called into work and did make it up to bro later. My mum saw bro for a bit in the morning but she didn't want to come with us, which since my dad couldn't I was kinda hoping she would. Did feel like saying fine you stay, don't worry we'll make sure H has a good day Speechless."

Oh god. She's on the floor. CALL AUNTIE, QUICK.

(Quick aside: warning: don't give me and thereby the world name initials, keep yourself as anonymous as possible now; you've given away enough information already. Bro and sis, etc., will do. And don't ever, whatever you do, give yours or your parents or auntie's names. If you ever reveal too much, I'll have to delete your post, meaning, you starting your post all over again. I know it's easy to forget yourself in your predicament, but...that's precisely one of the things I'm here for, "innit!" :-))

Yes, it's a bit sh*t. But it's temporary. It's just mum's turn, that's all. It's about equality, isn't it, and the woman SHOWING the man how much what he himself did, hurt. Means he's not used his empathy and imagination nor is listening or taking her complaint of pain and victimisation at his hands, seriously enough. He's minimising his crime out of guilt, in other words, and it's served only to add gross insult to already gross injury...and here's her reaction/decision: taste of own medicine (but bitterer......'the female of the species is more deadly than the male'). If afterwards dad thinks that makes it *his* turn again, they might become doomed, maritally. No, it won't be, it'll be DUCE and no Advantage to either. So I hope he won't, and I hope he won't feel he has to out of the fact she's given him what counts as *two* doses as opposed to his one or else he *will* have the egotistical urge to equalise the scoreboard.

Auntie needs to wade in and knock heads again. Perhaps auntie and new man too, assuming he's her Like? I mean, CLEARLY your mother and father aren't coping with this marital crisis, whereby coping means, not letting it affect and detriment the kids' lives and welfares in any permanent sense. But here we have your mum too on-the-floor to involve herself in her baby son's birthday. NOT GOOD. So if they won't do what needs to be done in seeking professional intervention then 'the wise woman of the woods' and any assistant of hers will be a vast improvement on EFF ALL. ...Or start with the joint letter, yes. ANY action is better than none right now.


*Why* isn't Tom allowed in the venue? Or is that just what Jamie told you and is pure BS?


Talking of BS (albeit this being the 'rightful' kind): Tom is "THINKING OF"....what do you think about that, Lily? Do you mind? Do you care? Enough, possibly, to cry or rear up and start an argument? ;-) BUTTON-PUSH ALERT! Testing The Water variety.

What reaction did you give? And did it lay it on thick enough/play the game? ;-) Or did you play Silly Poker back and say, 'Oh, well...maybe you're onto something, maybe *I* should think about farther-flung fields too, then?....New places....(cough!) NEW PEOPLE...?'.


Nah, I'm sure Scopes meant just blog-wise.


He means when you elect (in your Profile) to receive email alerts that someone's just posted on a thread you've participated in (this case, yours).

PS: 'Might be a stupid question'? 'Am I being mean'? You're the least stupid and least mean young woman of your age I've ever met (bar my son's gf)! Repeat: EVER!

Where's that sass and confidence gone all of a sudden, why are you apologising for yourself without having committed any crime?

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Lils, talk to me, what's happening?

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Been meaning to send this all day!

Yeeeeeah, I was soooo fed up last week, really didn't want to be at home and lost all confidence but that was put firmly back in place after being with my aunt for a few days. she took one look at me and was like. 'omg, whats going on now?!' She knows me too well, I must of looked like crap and she wouldn't let me leave till I looked better :-/. Also got a text message from Holly, which was very mixed, not exactly nice but wasn't horrible either, replied a really short reply but really couldn't be bothered with her, it just added to the stress!

Auntie is really p**sed off because she had no idea what going on till I told her what's going on. She said my mum acted like she was going home to sort everything out, not go and stay with a friend. She doesn't like the sound of this friend but at the moment she can't come and bash heads again coz she always looking after my cousins baby but did say she would be calling my mum.

Hmm aunties bf is really nice but he's really, really, really shy and o thought I was shy! I'm sure there is more of a personality that at the moment she only gets to see. Did come out of his shell a bit when auntie dragged us out for what was meant to be one drink the end my cousin had to come and pick us :-/ and I'm sure he I thought I was the bad influence!!! Er no!

More clear now! Really, really don't like this women (my mums friend) she's deffinately giving the wrong kind of encouragement to my mum and definitly taking her role far too seriously but I don't know what my mum is saying to her either she could be exaggerating. Mums friend is now acting like the sibs and I are being a pain in the a*se, like yesterday she just opened her front door, looked at us and walked off without saying anything (hi to you too you...Witch), it was arranged!

Think she is lonely, shes not married and by the sounds of it doesn't like men (or kids :-/) and not exactly a warm and welcoming person, more like ice queen. But worried she's turning my mum that way!

I have told my dad what is happening but he is doing nothing and thinks my mum will come back if and when shes ready since shes the one who doesnt want to be at home, helpful as ever. argh!

I'm seeing my mum later on tonight (ek soon!), its taken me two days to try and pin her down and get to to agree with meet up with me(she's been reluctant?!) on her own WITHOUT her friend coming along, I really had to make that clear coz she kept mentioning her coming along too. And I will be innorcently be asking questions about her friend and pinning her down for more outings lunch dates coz I really miss her not being at home :-( . She did promise to go dress shopping with me fora form a sixth form leavers thing, ugh, really wasn't bothered about going but it's something I can hold her to.

Think tom will be allowed, Jamie is BS, because hes now asked a friend to come play with us, of course the little git is expecting Tom to give his friend a lift too, will remind about petrol money, think he's expecting us to forget! :-|.
Ah button pushing again!! Didn't see like that's thought tom was being serious but didn't give him much of a reaction. I think it's a load of crap, he's always pretty clear what uni he wants get into and what he want to study/do career wise. cooking is more of a hobby/something to fall back on. His work place just want to train him up. He did make me think about a gap year too, but I want that. He'll probably try again (?) and I'll be ready!

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LILS cooking to me is a pain in the ass. However I do it because I have to eat. Now some people love to cook in a culinary fashion because it truly is an art.

This friend of your mum is is well......hmmmmm... a bit of a strange sort.

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I'm the same with cooking Scopes, and I usually get distracted and burn things too :-/.

Little update - my mum is saying that staying with her friend isn't going to be long term thank god. BUT she wants her own place and doesn't want to be with my dad anymore :-(. She told me this last Thursday and I was upset but angry too because they only gave it, what like 2 weeks of my dad being back home. I've met up with her quite a lot of times and no amount of talking is changing her mind. She's still p*ssed off with my dad about even considering the job and leaving the family and she says he turned into what his dad was like (my grandad) mood swings etc and my dad apparently told her he would never be like his dad. This bit is kinda true coz my mum (when they the grandparents were alive) used to have the grandparents round to stay most weekends so she could keep an eye on my gran who my mum says was unhappy. She seems to think she won't be happy in the future and says that she's spoken to my dad about this lot.

I think my dad does look at how he behaves, and he does try to change he still making a big effort to do things with me and sibs. it's not all the time that he is like this, but when he is in a bad mood it can last for days and he's not easy to live with.

My next plan is to plant the letter my aunt and I both wrote, but who knows if it will have any effect.

Er yeah my mums friend is more then strange, I think she's quite bitter for what ever reason. :-/

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Actually LILS I can cook up some fairly tasty food it's the prepping and the cleanup I hate. This time of year doing it up on the barby.

I was going to leave a comment about your mum's friend but there were too many yous and yours in it.

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Good GRIEF, has it really been two whole weeks since I had time to post?! I've no idea where the time's gone! Sorry, Lils, amongst other pressures, I've got home improvements contractors in at the mo. Mayhem.

Hope you're still looking out for alerts?


I think your mum is having a delayed reaction. In fact, I was rather waiting for it. I think your dad wound her up so incredibly much that she's having trouble coming down again as soon as everyone would like. Still, at least she sounds as if she's already getting a gutful from Little Miss Over-Helpful, so methinks it'd seem there's some light at the end of the Sensible tunnel. What's the latest on that score?

It could well *be* that your dad decided to try his dad's shoes on. It happens a lot as part and parcel of a Mid Life Crisis and is an endeavour to get to grips with a parent's (usually bad) behaviour by evoking the same feelings and attitudes through replicating as closely as possible said behaviours, choices and decisions - this case, most likely the 'head of the household is king' attitude, going by that course-change attempt of his. Maybe he also wanted to see how your mum's reaction to an attempt to railroad differed from his own mum's? Risky experiment, though. As he know no doubt appreciates. But her decision has obviously re-cranked him into DefCon as well, hence his bitter, resentful "whatever" attitude towards this work colleague's attempted takeover.

Has he since tried to talk to her? Or auntie?

What did your joint letter say?

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Soulmate as always you are a wealth of information and full of good advice. Believe it or not I have friends whom are going through the same things as you with contractors,improvements etc.

LILS hopefully things are on the mend with your mum, as for Little Miss over-helpful hmmmmm...

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Yeah still looking out for alerts.

That makes a lot of sense :-).

Er, little miss-over-helpful is taking my mum very seriously on wanting her own place and is 'helping' her look. Wouldn't be surprised if it was close to where she lives, but when my mum gets away from her I'll be happy. If she came back home that would be amazing, but she keeps telling me she doesn't want to when I talk to her about it :-(. She's adamant it's what she wants, her 'own space' as she puts it with room for sibs and I.
My mums friend also wouldn't let sis see our mum last week...Sis was upset about something, wanted to talk to my mum and went round but was turned away by my mums friend who said she 'wasn't available'. She did just turn up but she should be able to see her mum if she needs to, could of been about anything and sis only wanted to talk to my mum about it coz she wouldn't even tell me! I ended up driving her round, called my mums mobile and she came out, apparently she had been in the shower. Mums friend said that she told sis she could wait if she wanted to but sis says she didn't say that and that she was aggressive :-/. Whatever happened, I think it's opened my mums eyes a little because she's been keeping in contact with all of us a lot since and wanting arranging things, go out more. I spent all day Saturday with her so I'm beginning to think she doesn't feel as comfortable there as she did in the first place.

My dad does get told about what this friend is like and knows my mum doesn't want to come home but he's avoiding the whole situation/distracting himself at the moment by painting the whole of the house, instead of trying to talk to my mum or doing anything about it.

He's gone into depressive mood again. Only person he has actually said something to is Tom but it was about me, I walked in on my dad saying to him 'I don't think she likes me very much and if she could, she'd be with her mum'. Don't dislike him, but I'm frustrated and stressed out with what's going on, which is what I told him and if tom wasn't there I probably would of said a lot more. Wasn't going to answer which parent I'd rather be living with, not like I have a choice! My dad didn't say anything he just very quickly changed the subject to uni which is another thing I'm stressed out and he knows this because we've been talking about it. He also knows I've been meaning to talk to tom about this , in private :-| but haven't really wanted to incase it turns into sh*tty discussion/argument...last time I confine in him! Tom was quite happy to go into detail about a gap year he's 'thinking' about but my dad ended it with the very helpful words of 'oh well, it will either make you or break you both'. I could just seen toms brain start to spiral and today he's has been his really quiet (not normal for him) . Thanks dad (Y) :-|. Felt like he was stirring things a bit too, to make himself feel better?!

Letter, if I had it in front of me I would put what aunty and I came up with. It basically said that this has been going on for far too long and whilst we understand that it is painful for them and it's their marriage, it is not fair and the huge amount of stress it's had on me and sibs because of all the changes. They've have had a lot of time to think about what each of them wants and now is the time to start doing something about it, marriage counselling or whatever they think will help. And my aunt is always there if either of them need to talk to her. There was more, it didn't go on for too long but with think we covered everything. Aunty is both on their cases now she knows they've got the letter, my mum and dad are both just avoiding her, but she's said she's not going to back off and they can't ignore her forever.

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(T'is the spruce-up season, Scopes. Plus, house prices are again beginning to fall slightly so, to counteract it, we're putting added Wow Factor into my garden, and today created yet another vignette out of a previously dead and purely utilitarian space in the widest part of the garden path just outside of and running horizontal to the glazed kitchen back door, now giving whomever (out of whichever couple that ends up buying this) is the chef their own little 'waiting for it to reach the boil', wine-quaffing territory in the form of a cosy (reed-fenced-backed) little gravel garden featuring tiny bistro table and chairs. Going to plant a dead Cherry Blossom branch as a bare but prettily-shaped mini-tree, and decorate it with tiny solar lights, a tiny wind-chime, a copy of Muscly Man Monthly, etc., etc., and will get my carpenter to make wooden, painted letters to spell 'Chef's Corner' (and might add, 'Those Not Cooking, Bog Off!')....the whole concept being perfecto through t' fact that spot year-round gets the evening rays at supper-cooking time. Aye, there is method in my madness even where concerns in-teeerr-ior desain, dwahling.

The bad news is, I got stung by a stinging nettle and had forgotten how irritating that is. (Note to self: thicker gardening gloves or rubber gloves under gardening gloves. ....Hand sauna.)

What was the question again??)



"Wouldn't be surprised if it was close to where she lives, "

It'll be a rabbit hutch at the end of her garden. :-p

I hope your mum likes carrots?


Take a tip: cease asking, now. She wants it? Does-she?-Does-she? OH YEAH? Let her have it - ALL OF IT!!! Let's see if she actually finds THE REALITY of a divorcee's life an improvement on the perfectly open option of normal married and family life, shall we?

How does it go?...
"If you love something,
Set it free
It if comes back?
It was always meant to be".

After all, Lils, think about it: if your mum *could* find the former preferable to the latter then, really, she *should* get divorced from your dad - yes?

However, isn't it funny that *before* dad went and threw sh*t into the fan, they were perfectly okay - to the tune of snuggling on the sofa! Nah, she just hasn't had long enough to calm down, let alone to properly think through the ramifications of her present-day actions. *Something* will 'shout out at her' to remind her that so-called freedom isn't always a bed of roses (not if your marriage isn't actually in itself critical, it isn't), don't you worry. Something always does. It grabs you by the scruff of the neck and pushes your face *right down* into that so-called Greener grass. Now, suddenly, you're aware that ALL GRASS features worms and poo, regardless of which side it's on. Oh, aye.

Oh, good grief. Just read your next para about 'Lena The Leech' (as I'm now christening her). Somebody really needs to slap her face. (Metaphorically-speaking, I should swiftly add.)

"I ended up driving her round, called my mums mobile and she came out, apparently she had been in the shower. Mums friend said that she told sis she could wait if she wanted to but sis says she didn't say that and that she was aggressive :-/."

GOOD! EXCELLENT! Bullies of whatever variety, rely on their victims' SILENCE. Good on you both for grabbing the 'crime' from under the table and slamming it on the top! Keep that up. Block her from all angles. Just with the truth.

"so I'm beginning to think she doesn't feel as comfortable there as she did in the first place."


No carrots for mum, then. Phew!

But, here's the science bit: that your mum *attracted* a bully (possessor-controller-isolator) in the first place, shows us that she's still in victim mode thus giving off the whiff, thereby attracting your Lena type character. That's how it works. So if she's still in victim mode, she's still in high DefCon (3, 2 or 1) aka Fight Or Flight mode...stressed, panicky, jittery, overly negative, cloth-earned, (blind, deaf, dumb), very distracted.... She won't be capable of thinking straight, still. So - again - I'd be very surprised if this so-called life-course-change decision sticks. Very.

"he's avoiding the whole situation/distracting himself at the moment by painting the whole of the house, instead of trying to talk to my mum or doing anything about it."

Actually, that *is* him doing something about it. Just in blokie-action (mouth- and vulnerability-avoidance) way. He's making the house more attractive in the hope that it'll lure her back. Maybe it's something she's been asking him to do for yonks?

It's not direct, though, I agree.

But - you'd know? Is the painting/sprucing overdue thus somehow glaring indication on his part of his having upgraded his marital attitude, i.e. him putting his 'I'll do better, I promise!' money where his mouth is?

Reckon your dad's more scared than depressed. Hence why he's combined a need to discharge negative energy in a productive, positive way (the depressed do not paint...not even their own toenails...not even *one* toe...." I have to?....why cantcha jus' lea'me alone".... ;-)), with the other need to say, I'VE CHANGED ALREADY, LOOK, AND I'M SHOWING YOU HOW MUCH I WANT US TO STAY TOGETHER!

(It's *kind of* talking, if you think about it?)

Whether in her current state your mother will even notice the paintwork, is another matter. *COUGH!*. (LOL)

...And clearly still feeling sorry for himself ("meh-meh-MEH-meh-meh, Lily thinks I smell!"). And clearly still in DefCon manipulation mode because - what would have been the chances of Tom *not* telling you later, had you not walked in? (*Actions*) Course he would have. Plus - what about the likelihood of you walking in mid 'gossip', eh? Either/Or: Cue you now with the obligation to somehow say/show, 'NOOO, Da-da, you're THE GREATEST!'.

Conclusion: He is deflated (but not depressed) and trying to create ways and means to pump back up his flailing ego. He can't manage it so he's trying to sneak it. (Still concerned with saving face, then.)

But at least he's ceased trying to control your mam. (Tick!) He's set the [rolls eyes] "caged" birdie free. Yet has strewn the now open-doored cage floor with tasty seed. That's the way to do it! "Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey" is the saying I use. One banana, two banana, three banana, SNOG.

Your dad has improved and your mother has deteriorated. Weathervane couple. Now he knows *why* women want to fix "now-now-now!". It's because they know that if the bloke carries it on for a moment too long - BAM! - FEMALE WRATH + SENDING-TO-COVENTRY TIME (everyone stand back!!!).

He'll just have to bide his time. Welcome to her just-recent world, dad. :-p


Question, Lily: Do you think the house is looking distinctly better for his endeavours?


You're too old for parents. We could sit here and pretend you weren't, simply based exclusively on your on-paper age, but - "yawn", let's not. And your little blister's obviously very impressive too! (How's bro doing?)


WHY are you stressed about Uni?


"'oh well, it will either make you or break you both'."


He's spouting the same philosophy as me, look ("if you love something..."). And practising that new-found attitude on you and Tom, simultaneous with the putting-it-into-*paint* effect. A test-run if you like. People do that a lot. You know that gobby woman in the supermarket who gives you OTT verbal What For for zero or inadequate reason (e.g. you accidentally hip-bumped her trolley)? She's on her way home to finally give her husband What For. ;-)

But, yes, there would have been a tiny bit of, 'Don't think you and Tom are immune, you know, meh/mleugh', in there.


Sounds like an excellent letter to me, covering every base.

"Aunty is both on their cases now she knows they've got the letter, my mum and dad are both just avoiding her, but she's said she's not going to back off and they can't ignore her forever."

They can run, but they can't hide. Hee-hee.

People say that about me. Can't think why?




Anyway, strange as it sounds, these goings-on are perversely positive. Nay worries, lass (as per).

Tell me about your worries to do with Uni then?

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Well, Aunty (and bf) turned up at our house yesterday, unannounced looking really p*ssed off. Even though I had no idea she was coming, I could kinda sense she was going to show up at some point and be on the war path, because she had been telling me how angry my mum and dad were making her by not responding to her calls :-/.

when my dad saw her, I could tell what he was thinking 'sh*t, nooooooooo ' and he probably wanted to run a million miles but there was no where for him to go :-), so he had to face her and answer the questions that she started throwing at him after she told him she had a bone to pick with him and my mum hehe. Questions were like, why have you been ignoring me? Can't you understand that this is exsteamly frustrating for everyone and it's effecting your children's well being? When are you going to get this sorted out? What have you done to try and solve this? So what do you think of the letter lily and I wrote to you both?
My dads reaction to her was fairly calm but aunty wasn't satisfied with all his answers. I think she could see he was trying and he said he's tried speaking to her but getting nowhere. So She then went off find my mum, dunno how that went yet. I'm hoping she saw my mums friend too and maybe put her in her place a bit too. I would of gone with her to see my mum but I had to go and meet up with Holly wasn't going to cancel on her (not that we're friends) again.

I think my dad painting the house has made a difference, if he is doing it to try and get my mum to come round, then I'm not too sure how impressed she's going to be. I did tell her dunno if that was the right thing to do and she rolled her eyes and said 'I asked him to do that ages ago!' .

Hmm keeping an eye on bro, he still shuts himself away sometimes but I think that's just coz he likes his own space. He's better then he was before, got more friends now and if toms around he's more talkative.

I dunno what to do with uni now because I did a beginners counselling course that's just finished and I really, really liked it. It wasn't long but I found the tutor really engaging and didn't mind doing role plays, when I hate that kinda thing. Tutors feedback at the end of the course to me was to think about doing the year counselling course before uni. About a week ago she called me and talked to me about it and suggested maybe signing up for it anyway and I can always pull out if I don't want to do it. she's teaching the course too :-). That's how I ended up talking to my dad about it, because I Was confused, thought he'd have a bit more of an opinion - go to uni, but he doesn't really care.

The bit I'm worried about is tom and if we're going to stay together, and its a bit scary coz i obviously really like him and don't want to loose him :-/. But I know a lot people who get together at school then don't last at uni coz of distance or whatever. I have now talked to him about this a couple times and told him about the counselling course but if I go into the things I'm really worried about like above, he gets irritated and repeats my name over and over again, which is really annoying because he thinks it's a way to get me to shut up, I don't, I just carry on and make my point. he then tells me I worry too much and I'm overthinking this. But he pushed the button to get a reaction from me and now he's not listening :-@.

I am worring about really stupid things at the moment, not just uni/college/tom, it's also holly, parents and exams feels like my brain has gone into overload :-O

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LILS looks like you have quite the eventful situation there. Now auntie is your mum's sis No? Hopefully she did confront little miss over-helpful. LILS you need to decompress a little you've got exams goin on.

I'm in San Diego mom seems same as before. Giving her gourmet chocolate cake and roses.

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Eyup, you two!

I can't imagine Auntie refraining from confronting Leechiepoos, myself - can you? Not if Lena stood there doing her bouncer act. Which I'm sure she would have, since her boundless lack of boundaries lacks no bounds [- just invented a new tongue-twister, look].

Me, though, I'd have said to your dad, Then try HARDER, Fifi-Trixibelle! I mean, he was the one set mum off in the first place so - it's *his* job. *sigh*...what are we going to do with him, eh? I hope Auntie's charging them both by the hour? By now, I would be. And she said it all!

Re your mum's 'ages ago' reaction over the painting. Yeah, that's what I suspected. Well, she can delude herself it's "toooo late no-oo-owwww, whingey-whinge-whinge" but whatever Conscious She thinks or doesn't think is by the by on this one. It's going to be up to her inner animal, ultimately; it's its show, not hers, always was. The fact remains that, that he's gone to that effort will not be getting lost on her sensible, rational side. The seed has been planted in her head and will start to do its magic (beans in exchange for a cow ;-))... All these under-the-radar, *seemingly* improperly noticed things help to calm a body down, whether we like it or notice or believe it'll effect or not. That and time.

I wanted to know whether you could believably encourage your dad by making some sort of 'I'm impressed, don't stop there!' noises. Try it. You never know - if he actually runs as far as new carpeting throughout, he might get her agreeing to a meet-up out of it. Tell him to kill her with kindness in a strong, dignified manner, i.e. more of what he's doing.

Good, bro sounds normal.

Agree with your tutor. You're a natural. But ultimately it's your decision so, if you find you can't make one, go through the motions of one of them to see if you can actually take it all the way to the hilt. Let your feet do the talking. If it's not the right decision underneath all that fear-chatter in your head, your [her again] inner animal won't let you (bit like when you type a snarky email but then can't quite make your finger press Send). Or flip a coin. If you don't like the result, hence suddenly introduce doing the best of three - there's your answer! But really, if your tutor is that keen then - take the hint, Lils, she thinks you'd walk it.

He does care. He just can't really register or deal with it right now for obvious reasons. But it's in the in-tray. Patience, Glasshopper.

"But I know a lot people who get together at school then don't last at uni coz of distance or whatever. "

I know a lot of people who get together then don't last and don't even HAVE the problem of distance! What's your point? Don't blame distance - where there's a will, there's a way. We beans will do literally almost anything for Love Heroin, it's the best sh*t ever, maaan. In some cultures, people will even risk being stoned to death for it, eh!

Good, glad you don't let Tom faze you. He's only doing it BECAUSE he feels guilty from knowing he was the one opened that can of worms. Yes, so what if you do worry and analyse more than other people. When the world needs worriers, you'll be one of the ones they call and you'll be able to name your price! Still doesn't alter who the can-opener was. Next time he starts with that condescension-type railroading, call him Tom-Tom and tell him he's nearing his final destination unless he does a U-turn. :-p

Anyway, you inherited that from your da.

What is Holly doing? Is she being prickly again?


If your brain goes into overload then you need more admin and filing time (sleep - dreaming), simple as that. And a more premium brand of fuel (eat like a health freak and as many different foodstuffs as you can).

Scopes - your mother eats roses with her chocolate cake? She must have very sweet breath?

[well, I make *me* laugh; that's the main thing]

Here, did you make the cake yourself?

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Anyway, it's crystal-clear to me now that your dad spent a long time neglecting your mum romantically and as her co-nester through over-focusing on his career (gosh, what a unique plot line, LOL). She tried to get him to pay attention and remedy the situation (incl. painting and generally putting more into the house/home) but it went in one ear and out the other (nagging doesn't work with most men, "it could be PMT"...gotta *take action* before they'll cease failing to take you seriously). She shut down and wandered off (not a lot, but certainly compared to normal), then obviously saw him make another spurt of effort. Cue the sofa snuggling - her input. He didn't like that she was dictating and not rewarding fast enough so tried to regain her fuller and (cough) higher attention the impatient way ("I've been offered a job ON THE MOOOON!").

Their timing's off. He starts it. She finishes it. But she's not there yet because he went and over-complicated everything and pushed her too far (crack!).

It's still just wind. But unfortunately, it'll take as long as it needs to. You and your sibs don't *have* to get frustrated, though. Not if you saw it as being as vital as a gash going through the process of clotting then developing a scab which then hardens, drys and is allowed to fall off in its own sweet time, EQUALS, no noticeable scar.

£5 please, but not one of those plastic hankies (they absorb *nothing*).


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Nope sorry the cake is store bought but quite delectable.

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(Then, thank-you anyway for your kind offer of a slice, but I'll pass. I tend to prefer to at least know the person whose skin-dust and eye-lashes I'm eating. ;-))

PS Lils: Remember Tom's just testing whether *you* want to retain the relationship, and enough to endure long-distance without potentially dabbling. He was the one who raised it, it occurred to his mind first - bottom-line *actions*! His insecurity. As per.

Beddiebyes pour moi! I've got a morning in the morning.

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Skin dust and eyelashes quite delish YUM!

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I say, Sir!...Is that your way of confessing to the ladies and gentlemen here present and the world, the fact you're a closet cannibal?! :-O

Tsk....first posting opportunity for, what - nearly two whole weeks and Lily. Flippintypical.

Unless...? (2 plus 2 equals 3,075...) Come on, Scopes. What have you done with her. Listen, if I find out she was in that cake, why I'll...... [shakes fist]


Got any new jokes while we're waiting?

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I say Mamm

That'd quite true indeed...nah the cake was irresistible Store bought or not. As for LILS I'm not hiding her in the cake that is. Has been a bit of a spell hasn't it.


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Oh god, it has been a while ...oops sorry :D, hmmmm caaaaaaaakee

Yeah scopes my aunt is my mums sister. I think she did confront my mums friend, dunno what she said exactly, wish I had been there but been round there a couple of times and she's seems to of backed off ...a tiiiiiiiny bit but still doesn't feel comfortable being in her house.

Aunty coming did start to get parents talking and made them think. I was also ill at school at school last week and after spending ages with the school nurse she decided it was down to stress and not sleeping/exhaustion. But actually after going to the Drs turns out I'm really anaemic (Yay), which is weird because should be sleeping a lot ...not, not sleeping...body obviously confused, not allowed to do any running or swimming at the moment :-( I feel like a right slob!

Anyways This finally made parents realise how stressful this has been and since my mum has been coming round, and looked into marriage counselling and they're going to see someone in like a week. So it was all positive :-D even though it didn't feel like it.

My aunt and bf have went away after the first time they came to visit and last weekend they called by on the way back for an update and they are coming today too and staying till Monday, ha much to my dads horror who surggested a 'nice' hotel to them near by but my aunt was like 'no I think we'll stay with you!' :-D.

Also my dad birthday in summer and we usually go on hol then, so wondering if my mum is actually coming hope so :-/ coz he's starting to talk about it and invited tom to come (hol sorted).


Oh, I wasn't taking the hint with the counselling course if she was hinting but I think I want to do it. And do music lessons/club after college and in the hols. I'm testing it out next week with my mum coz it's half term and just gonna see how it goes. my mums friend was really up for dropping off all 7 of her kids for nearly the whole week (ahh) so she can work (Y) and she's told some of her friends, thankfully they don't have any many kids as her.

Think tom has realised he started all of this uni stuff because he's addmitted he doesn't want to do a gap year and work, he wants to go to uni and has now decided the more we talk about it the more easier it will be when the time comes. That what I was trying to say in the first place, maybe not in the right way and he reassured me on the things I was worrying about.

Holly has got bored of her new popular friends that she ditched me and megan for and she now wants to be friends with us again but wont look at what she's done and thought by sending annoying 'I miss you' texts was a way back in.
Megan is like 'f*** her if she can't applogise. It's nicer without her' and she's right in a lot of ways, there has been no jelously, no b*tching with us coz we can't be bothered and tom gets on really well with her bf so it's been goooood.

I met up with Holly, only coz we've been best friends for years, Megan refused to come, prob for the best! I did explained that she can't just walk back in without acknowledging anything and she seriously thinks she hasn't done anything wrong :^) and that we changed and she had to make new friends because she was being left out... dunno what she thinks Meg and I did in the past when she had bfs and... there were a few! But we didn't go and make new friends out of jealousy or make her feel like sh*t when she wanted to hang out with them and not us. In the end she said 'i think we have drifted apart' and I know she was trying to get to me so I just said 'if that's what you think' and it's been left like that. I'm hoping she'll think about it but I doubt it coz it's been two weeks and she hasn't tried again. All she has to do is say sorry ! grrr

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Only took me 2 days this time! PS: Good to know you respond to double-pincer hinting and nagging, LOL.

I don't like cake, incredible as it sounds. I'm into savoury. You can have my piece.

.....Virtual cake... Do you two realise we're only inches from replicating Alice In Wonderland? Bagsie be The Mad Hatter. Actually, strike that - the Dormouse ...he gets to FLIPPIN' SLEEP! Aaanyhoo...mustn't grumble...

1. Auntie - confrontation with Lena The Leech: did she?! Cor, blimey, she's certainly no-one's fool, your auntie, is she! I'm now an even bigger fan! :-)

"bit but still doesn't feel comfortable being in her house"

Yep. Nothing wrong with *your* instincts.

"Aunty coming did start to get parents talking and made them think."

I could actually snog your aunt at this point. I won't. I'm just saying, LOL.

2. Sorry you're anaemic and not sleeping properly. :-( Did the doc say what it was down to? Still - look at the Lemonade: it brought your parents up sharp! :-) However, it obviously does go to show that this whole thing has got to you, even under your own radar. Unsurprisingly.

Good news: you do know that dark choccie is a great source of iron (67% RDA)? And Licorice?? Also raisins...which gives you carte blanche to stuff your face on Cadbury's Fruit & Nut and Licorice Allsorts. I wouldn't worry about being a slob for now. It's only temporary, for one, and two, it means all your available energy can now go exclusively on your powers of mental processing and resilience.

Have you tried listening to classical music to help you drift off? It'll turn your emotions off through being a wholly engaging left-brained activity, and thereby make you calmer, enough to drop off. That's the key: whenever your right brain starts mewling, switch to your left to give it a well-deserved nap. An alternative is to do crosswords or word puzzles just before lights-out. Anything logical/non-emotional. Also, if you can't do any exercise, try just fidgeting more (or playing Rachmaninoff).

3. Marriage counselling: HURRAH! FINALLY! GOOD GRIEF, COUPLE 'O SNAILS OR WHAT! Still - better late than never! :-) You must be SO RELIEVED!

4. "ha much to my dads horror who surggested a 'nice' hotel to them near by but my aunt was like 'no I think we'll stay with you!' Grinning."


Seriously-seriously, though - what a woman! I can't say it enough.

5. Your dad invited Tom to come? Nice one! What about Auntie? (smirk) (I'll hazard a guess at NO, shall I? :-D)

Here - what about me, can I come as well? ;-)

I think inviting Tom was a very clever move on your dad's part. I think it's a however-much conscious forward-signal to your mum, to say, 'I won't be giving you even one iota of aggro if you come with us. The fact we'll have a guest present the whole time positively guarantees it, i.e. I couldn't even if I wanted to!'. Yep, clever self-strait-jacketing. And, more to the point - show of sincere willing. :-) Let's watch that acceptance-declination space, then!

6. Re the counselling course: excellent choice, Modom!

7. And the out-of-hours piano lessons: even "excellenter"! You're on your way back up but this time higher!! (Can I do my "Told Ya So" dance yet? :-))

PS: Seve-SEVEN KIDS?!... Seriously??? Hasn't she EVER heard of Satellite telly? Or is she Irish?

(*ducks Politically-Correct pamphlets on racism and lobs back pamphlets on How To Grow A SOH*) (anyway, I'm part-Irish so I'm allowed, mleugh)

I mean!... "thankfully they don't have any many kids as her" - These days - who does!

8. "Think tom has realised he started all of this uni stuff because he's addmitted he doesn't want to do a gap year and work, he wants to go to uni and has now decided the more we talk about it the more easier it will be when the time comes. That what I was trying to say in the first place, maybe not in the right way and he reassured me on the things I was worrying about."

GOOD. But you can't say 'more easier'. :-p It's either 'easier' or 'more easy'. 5p, please. :-) Oh! Did I not tell you I do out-of-hours English lessons? Next week, it's Lit featuring Shakespeare. ("Is this a grammatical error I see before me?") Just giving you forewarning so it sfall be more easier when the tyme doth comest.

(*ducks Licorice Allsorts and semi-cannibalistic cake*)

9. Holly: I don't blame you. NOBODY PUTS BABY IN THE CORNER! (- Dirty Dancing film ref...before your time)

"Megan is like 'f*** her if she can't applogise. It's nicer without her' and she's right in a lot of ways, there has been no jelously, no b*tching with us coz we can't be bothered and tom gets on really well with her bf so it's been goooood."

Nuff said/case closed. And...

"All she has to do is say sorry ! grrr"

I know. What is it with some people that they're egos are SOOOO TEENY TINY that they can't BEAR to give even a fractional portion of it away ...or the piece she stole off you BACK, I should say! (Just answered me own question, look. ;-))

You and Holly aren't in-synch any more, developmentally... that's what this is. The precise catylistic event is actually by-the-by, meaning, if it hadn't been over this it'd have been summat else. The event was but the symptom, in other words.

Anyway... that was all a lot of Lemons turning out to be Lemonade. Fate must like you, it's manoeuvring and 'de-fusing' on your behalf as we speak. :-)

I'm sure the kiddie piano lessons is going to 'go' like a storm! LLLLLLLOADZAMONEY for your holiday!

PS: Have you spotted any of those extra-large, foreign hornets yet? I have. *YIKES*. Who the hell let THOSE in!!!

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Oh thanks, virtual cake nice!

Aunty confronted leach face coz sis told her about her run in with her so aunty was on the war path and by the time she had finished with leach face, apprently didn't open her mouth after that or comment on my dad. Yeah I owe aunty somehow :-D

Aunty seems to be coming every weekend at the mo, and has been helping my dad look for a holiday, whether he wanted help or not ...I'm surprised she hasn't invited herself yet...will wait and see :-D.
My dad wanted to go to America coz he loves it there but she told him to think of something more meaningful/ romantic if he wants my mum to come. Think she was trying to tell him not to make it all about him and where he wants to go. Thought that was good advice and he's listened. Think we're going somewhere my mum and dad went years ago but he's waiting to see if he can talk her round coz at the moment she's doesn't want to come, share a hotel room with him/ be in his company :-/. Don't think she knows tom is coming, that might help a little coz she's goes all goey with him and hopefully aunty will encourage her too.

Really relieved they are going to marriage counselling, and they're actually doing something. I've relaxed a bit more just knowing this, hopefully this counsellor person is good and will help them. But my mum coming round most days has caused arguments, really annoying, stupid ones, where my dad says things without thinking and my mum is snapping back at him. My dad has also not very positive about the music lessons and thinks downstairs has been ''turned into a crèche' but he's at works not gone down well with my mum and she got defensive.

Music lessons have been really popular, and parents have been asking about the summer hols. Thankfully my mum has been doing it with me coz on one of the days there was like 12 kids altogether, some stayed all day till the could be picked up and some littler ones went home at lunch. Also realised we had to entertain them before they got bored so sis was doing arty stuff with them and think she'll have them all knitting and card making by the end of the summer. Sis employed!

Ugh, anaemia is down to periods being crap, lovely things. Was told the pill would help after a few months but didn't do a thing :-@ so doc has given me a different one to try. Catching up on sleep though, partly coz I've been busy all day everyday and tom has been staying most nights. He's been strict, lights gone out at the same time no mob or iPad at night and anything else he thought was distracting and stuck on some hypnotherapy thing. He's tried to take my book away too but he got told to bugger off. It did work though. Will try classical music coz I'm getting a bit bored of hypo now.
Oh good glad choc helps doc was going on about green boring stuff, not keen on dark choc but will try it, cadburys fruit and nut on the other hand Yuummm.

Ooo I had to watch dirty dancing to see if it was good was :-D. Hmm Holly has been trying to be friends again but just with me, hasn't apologised just admitted she can jump to the wrong conclusions like that time with my mum and dad and me having to cancel on her. But then there is Megan who she doesn't seem to be bothering with at all and has said she doesn't understand that all of a sudden we're now good friends when not so long ago we weren't as close. Tom thinks she's playing a game and has said she was probably the one who stopped us being friends. I dunno if she's that clever :-/. I agree I think we're not in-sync anymore or have much in common and if we were to be friends again she'll just go back to how she was and make me feel bad for hanging out with Megan and Tom. And I don't want to go and join her and her new friends. Ugh, can't wait to leave all the stupid school playground stuff behind.

Yeah have seen the hornets things, ew, thought they looked bigger then then a wasp or bee. Don't want to get stung by one of those!

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Leech Face - LOL!!! Is that what you're all calling her, or just you on here? :-D

You owe her appreciation, that's all. Cuz doing what she's doing is in her job description as well as job-title itself, innit. :-) I mean...Think about the sound: "Aunt".... as in, "I'm going to start a cult of two - me an' yer sister" / "No, you AREN'T!!!" / "(Yikes!) Ok, no I aren't". ;-D

"Aunty seems to be coming every weekend at the mo"

Yeah, funny that, LOL.

Nah. Dad *did* want. I mean, you're not telling me a grown man who has the balls (or temerity) to risk life as he knows it by saying to his wife, 'Vee are moving to ze moon, pack now, ya vull, shnell!', can't say, 'Er, EXCUSE-ME, missus, but I'll thank you to butt out unless invited'. All these people are just saying their feeble Nos to create the pretence that they're *not* scared, vulnerable and incapable and save face. 'I don't want it' is as 'I don't want it' *does*. (Which he didn't do.) Remember that one. Actions ACTIONS actions, actions, actions ACTIONS!

I think Auntie did the right thing, being single for as long as she did. She clearly recovered fully and properly and thereby surpassed...hence this time round picked a good'un (do you like him?). Because she's acting like a woman with in-love extra confidence (in short, clearly feels like Superwoman at the mo).

So are you going to be the one to tell Mum that Tom's coming? And what it means in terms of a safety feature? Is your mum quite good at spotting actions and meanings of, normally?

Is it a problem, mum having her own room, if that's her (frankly sensible) deal-maker? Ask dad. Because I think those two things together would possibly swing it. Ask him, can he AFFORD not to afford it? Plus, if the counselling meanwhile removes that present safety-mechanism need of hers, the room could simply be cancelled, yes?, meaning all it would cost would be a small cancellation fee/loss of room deposit?

She goes gooey on Tom, does she? He must be an upgraded (plus baggage-free) version of dad, then (ta-daa!). Does he look like Dad at his age, by any chance?

(Here - how are things with brother and his girlfriend? And how's sis?)

Wow, your mum has got YEARS-worth of resentment to get out, hasn't she?! Still... better out than in. Not better that he keeps stupidly adding to it, though.

(Ah, you've just told me how sis is. This is great, it'll be a family-run business soon enough!)

I think Dad feels threatened at you and Mum teaming-up (while she's still angry at him) but uses the concept of kids running around as his cover story.

So - still - *neither* of them are really thinking TEAM, are they. Enter counsellor...

Your dad is *very* attached to you, isn't he. Secretly, I mean. Shouldn't be secretly, but...this bloke called your dad clearly has problems with exposing his vulnerabilities (baggage). Even to his own family members (clue). Bet you any money you like that, if this counsellor is indeed a good one, s/he'll be proposing on some plausible-sounding pretext that he have a 'few little sessions on his own' in between. If s/he's a particularly canny one - same for Mum so that he won't feel singled-out.

"He's tried to take my book away too but he got told to bugger off."

:-D Did you say it straight or with a French accent? Nah, don't do that. He's doing his healthy-minded duty (when one of you's down, the other steps up and fills the breach, Amen, so - TICK!).

Try Green & Black's dark choc. Try their miniature multi-pack selection thing, it has dark as well as light. I believe there's plain dark and also dark with ginger. But even their milk bar has high cocoa content, including their own little Fruit 'n Nut bar, so - CHOCS AWAY!!!

Cadbury's cream egg todos el tiempo para mi (bought in bulk at Easter). "I eat mine obscenely". It's good practise. For prrrro-nun-ciation (why, what did you *think* I was talking about???) (heh-heh). ...Or used to before Kraft took over and the two halves began falling apart the minute you started trying to scrape the egg-top off. What sort of 'craft' are we talking about, eh? Lego? :-p)

Ha-ha, still laffin' about the fact when someone tries to take a book off you, you get all panicky and aggressive! :-D "NOOOOOOOOO, NOT THE BOOOOOOK!"

PS: I take it you mean real book, not a Kindle?

I've noticed a pattern and link: That when things are right in a relationship and, because of it, producing mutual bunny-like behaviour in terms of enthusiasm and frequency *plus* said spot-on brain chemistry, the ovaries get all excited ("we're gonna have a BABYYYYY - everybody get ready!"). Your womb creates an extra-special, extra-bouncy bed for the anticipated fertilised egg (- sounds like a ditty but isn't, not one bitty). Then - "Sorry, folks, no baby, false alarm, shed the bed!" et - voila: Extremely heavy ones, over-blood loss. Add, in your case, the good old chronic stress hormones like Cortisol, as interfere with vit and mineral absorption, and - that um why, Pale-Face.

Green boring stuff? Do you mean, like Spinach and Kale? I bloody LOVE that stuff! I swear I was a rabbit in a previous life. I mean - come ONNN - sauteed Spinach with butter? How is that not delicious? Or boiled Kale with butter and/or gravy? Did you eat too many Chillies as a baby??

Try this:

Bunch of Curly Kale on a plate, tough central stalks removed (just tear them like leaves from a book).
Peel and segment a fresh orange, retaining juice.
Whisk with fork olive oil with orange juice and a squirt of lemon juice, pepper and a little salt (quantities according to taste).
Add to the plate a shredded kipper (Waitrose do them ready-cooked, but call them Smoked Haddock doncha know, dwahling) and chopped orange segments plus halved drained Spanish Black olives in brine.
Chuck dressing over the top and dig in. MUCHO DELICIOSO or your (virtual) dinero back! Plus the Vit C from the orange promotes Iron absorption.

Or you can fry strips of Kale with chopped bacon? Or mix baby spinach and other dark baby leaves with freshly-fried bacon bits, sliced mushroom, chopped avocado, cherry tomatoes and Balsamic and Olive Oil vinaigrette?

My personal fave for an iron + Vit C boost together: Peanut butter + mayo + shed-loads of Watercress sandwich, do NOT knock it until you've tried it! (Peanuts contain iron too. But Brazils are especially good for promoting sleep due to their high Selenium content.)

2.5p, please. :-) In 1 Pence pieces, one sawn in half. I prefer, shiny.

So how does practising at sharing a pad with Tom feel? [wiggles eyebrows] Is he tidy as well?

Did you watch the 80s or new version of DD? Cos Patrick Swayze's face is WELL weird if you ask me! Good-looking? To whom? Other Mr Potato Heads? :-p

He was good in Ghost, though. Just NOT SEXY. That baddie chap actor was the sexy one...whassisface...tsk... HIM.

As for Demi Moore, she looked like a boy with boobs.

(And as for Whoopie Goldberg - she looks like Bill Cosby in drag whatever she wears.)

Patrick Putty-Face Swayze. (Is that even how you spell his surname, like I care?)

..., thanks for asking, LOL.

Holly: oh, she is that clever. But probably won't be aware she is.

"Ugh, can't wait to leave all the stupid school playground stuff behind."

Um................ Sorry to break it to you, but,...

Actually, I'll let Scopes tell you.

(:-D sorry, Scopes)

PS: The hornets I saw were as big as my thumb (you know the one, right? LOL)- and pretty much identical to English hornets, stripe-wise, except for looking as if they were lightly dusted all over with Orange-ish pollen.

Both times, I took one look and legged it!

Something tells me it's going to be a very 'insecty' Summer because the other day there were baby mozzies *everywhere* and same has been going for ants.

Did you know, though, that if it weren't for wasps the world would be knee-deep in aphids?

I think it was aphids. Well, knee-deep in something, anyway. Apparently, wasps are also the bin-men of the insect world. Only they don't provide tiny little, different-coloured bins for forcing the other insects to DO THEIR BLOODY JOBS *FOR* THEM!!!

(What...? Nothing...)

I'm obviously starting to float off on a little comedy cloud that probably isn't half as hilarious as I think it is. Better known in the industry as, Delirium. How queer when it's only 4am.

My cue for beddiebyeszzzz.....

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Hellooooooo....Soulmate and LILS
One of my most favorite beers dilerium tremmons

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Dilerium [Delirium?] Tremmons? Is that - "arrr" - a real ale "boy-enny chaaance"?

One of my favourite beers is, no beer.

Try Pastis/Sambucha/Pernod or similar aniseedy/licoricey liqueur, ice-cube, water (dilution to-taste), BOSH! Far bettcher zzjan (hic!) Pimmsh an' no fiddjly fwuity bitssh (urp!).

Or stick with Morning Beer-Breath (uuugh). Hope you're not a Tube-traveller? ..."Hhhhhi!.....Ssssc-huuuuuse-me!......Hhhhhhhafter you, Madam! (oh, she's fainted, hhhhhhow did that hhhhhhhhappen?!)".

So, yeah, anyway... (what?)...

PS: Why did the taxi-driver chuck it in? He was fed up with people constantly talking behind his back.

(groan / roger / over...)

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Belgium ales, or whiskey barrel aged stouts and ales

Love the taste

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Hehe, Sibs and I have started to call her Leech Face :-D, and I don't think either of us would feel bad if we said it to her face. Was a joint effort, i was calling her Lena- the -leech and said it in front of sis, who said her face is as ugly as a leech :-/, she's erm very complimentary like that, then came up with Leech Face.

Yeah, I like aunties bf, he's opening up a bit more now, knew he would. I did think their personalities were a bit too different and auntie might get a bit bored but nah, she's in loooooooove. Can tell. He seems to be a calming influence on her, like when she gets a bit too feisty (with the parents) all he has to do is put a hand on her arm and she looks at him and she relaxes and calms down ...a bit.
She is a bit upset that one of my cousins (the younger one) doesn't like him for no reason other then he thinks he's boring?! Aunties bf actually has quite dry sense of humour that my cousin probably doesn't get. He's being difficult too, what a surprise! Think auntie still needs to kick his a*se, she did with older cousin and he's changed a lot but not sure there is much hope for other cousin, too much of an idiot.

I told my mum was tom is coming on holiday, and she's was pleased my dad invited him. She's normally quite good at picking up on things but Leech Face was there butting in again, asking my mum why did that make a difference my bf was coming? and why would she even want to go on holiday with my dad and asked if she was actually thinking about it? I was giving leech face two middle fingers under the table. My mum was hesitating but then said she was thinking about it because it's starting to sound like my dad was trying and being more imaginative and not taking us back to the same place but if she does come she wants her own room. Leech Face walked when my mum said that, was quite amusing :-D.

My mum did tell me to make sure tom and I get our own room and make sure my dad doesn't think sis and I will share a room and tom and bro share another coz my dad will try to save money. I didn't think he would do this but I did check with him and that's what he was planning to do that! He went moaned that he would have to pay for five room coz sibs will refuse to share with each other. Funny that since we're getting older! I told him I'll pay my for our room if I have coz Tom is paying for his flights.

Did update him on what my mum said too and told him to talk to her quick before Leech Face talks my mum out of it.

Er, if you ignore the fact my dad had bright, long(why???) , wavy ginger hair (he was hoooooot...not!!!) at 18, him and tom were the same in height and build but that's about it. Tom got more defined features, looks wise, a lot better looking but I'm prob biased . If my dad got rid of the long hair he might of looked better. Unfortunately, I can see a lot of me and a bit of sis in my dad, bro had a lucky escape!

Yeah, my dad does feel threatened about me and my mum doing music lessons together. He's not pleased we're doing in the summer hols and was like 'I thought you were coming to come and work at the surgery'...already told him im not working there again, too manic, but he 'forgets' and keeps asking. He's also really embarrassing too :-|. His fave thing to do, which he's done a few times when I have been was there; he hates it when people go on their phones whilst waiting to see him and not pay attention to the electric board thingy when he calls for them. He gives them about a minute to walk to his room and when they don't go :-/ he then comes and stands in reception, calls the person up and very sarcastically and quite loudly says 'would you like to come and see me now or would you rather sit and play on your phone for the rest of the day? Up to you' Then walks off and if they're not quick enough, (sometimes the person stays to complain) he calls the next person! He does have a small point but doesn't have to be such an a*se and makes it hard for he reception staff. I feel really sorry them sometimes.

Bro did have a gf but he dumped her, think she got a bit annoying, but he was flirting with one girl that came along to he music lessons last week and has been very secretive with who he's texting, even though it's obvious!

Yeah, I liked practising sharing a pad with Tom ( would of been better if the family weren't there :-)) since his only crime was trying to take my books away, was just about ok with him taking the other stuff away coz I could see why but he doesn't believe I read more then one book at a time, I can, I swap each night, coz I'm weird like that :-# . He also tried to get me to choose just one, nooooooo!! Leave the books alone!
Tried kindle but it's not the same.
Hmmmm, he's tidy round my house and everything he owns has to have a home, doesn't like anything out of place, but his mum deff makes his bed hoovers and cleans. Still in training.

Yeah that green stuff! Will eat it but it's borning but I can tell my body wants more of it when I eat it. If that makes sense...

Peanut butter and mayo?! Hm will get tom to try that one first he's more adventurous.

It was the old dirty dance hmm yeah Patrick swayze is not good looking! Ooooh, I like Ghosts, the theatre show good too!

Hiiiiiii scopes!

ewww beer is gross

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I need to do a bit more catching up here to find ewt who leech face is.

Yeah I know beers are gross to most girls. However there is a beer that tastes and has the body of a wine it's called a mead.

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Hmm don't like it when tom drinks beer, I've introduced him to spiced rum and coke (y) that way no beer breath for meeeee!!!

Ugh, I don't know what to do about Leech Face (my mums so called friend scopes). She's carried on her stupid tantrum about my mum thinking about coming on hol. My mum and dad actually started to talk about it and now Leech Face is now kicking up a big fuss and talking my mum out of it.
I'm biting my tongue every time I see her coz she's not holding back on what she thinks and is actually being insulting about family members she hardly knows, aunty included.
Aunty not coming round this weekend, too busy. What's wrong with her (Leech Face that is, not aunty) ?! I'm starting to think she's really weird/obsessed/controlling in a crazy mental sort of way. I don't like my mum living there with her . I want her out! :-@ +0(

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So that's leach face what a monster! I can see what you mean. I'd feel a bit uncomfortable if my mothers friend was making comments about my family members too. LILS i gotta say that I wish I were where you are now.

It's bloody hot here!

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Lils(/Scopes), be with you in a day or so - realise I'm overdue so will make time especially. Bear with... Ta.

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It's hot here too, I'm melting and I can't sleep...maybe not as hot where you are. There was meant to be a storm coming (I like them :-D) but think weather people got that wrong!

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It's 120 f@#$in degrees here.

No worries Soulmate hope all is working out with the house. Yes LILS they can never be accurate. Just hope my bloody air conditioner doesn't crap out on me.

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Auntie's boyfriend sounds nice, only - does he have to "do" *anything*? Didn't she manage somehow to stay alive and manage myriad tricky situations for absolute decades before he walked in? [rhetorical question, replete with eye-roll] I guess it all depends on whether, if she puts her hand on his arm, *he* calms down, doesn't it (or whatever other secret gesture meant to manage or influence). That would make it alright. But if it's *not* a two-way thing, you might want to tell her to watch that and nip it in the bud until such time as it is. He's not her circus-trainer and nor does she need one, eh.

We'll let him off for now, though, because, being in Honeymoon Period, it'll still be a case of "WwwwwwwwwwwwwAH can be your hero babeh......WwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwAH can kiss away the pain...oh yeah.... I will staaand by yooou....for-e-ver....." (just cease retching as you sing, mate, that'll do, LOL).

But at least she only restrains herself "a bit." Good. She doesn't need restraining, just appreciating. So hold your fire on her younger son. He might just be the super-sensitive one, picking up on something amiss that he can't yet articulate. It's early days, after all; boyfriend's still getting test-driven. He could secretly be a beep-on-wheels with a Nice Guy face for all she knows, right?

"Leech Face was there butting in again, asking my mum why did that make a difference my bf was coming? and why would she even want to go on holiday with my dad and asked if she was actually thinking about it? I was giving leech face two middle fingers under the table."

I'm sat here right now giving her three. :-p

Well, dad will just have to book mum her own room, then - easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy. Reckon she'll end up in his room before the holiday's out, anyway. (Although, surely that means she could share with sis?) The *important, overriding* fact is, SHE OBVIOUSLY INTENDS TO GO, reliant merely on this/that 'mere flourish' term and condition / safety-harness. Berbom/actions. It's still an invitation acceptance.

The same holiday destination every year? Ha-ha, how screamingly Aspie. No wonder your mum was having to schedule cuddling sessions. But if he's having to go outside of his comfort-zone and learn new tricks then at least that's another of the lasting benefits of this whole process identified.

Don't pay for your own room. It's your dad's shout so it's your dad's shout (and, actually, I think it's rather miserly that he's not paying Tom's flights). And, by the way - I'm with mum: it's perfectly legal at your *adult* ages for you and Tom to share a room together. Put it this way - you could leave home tomorrow and be sh*gging non-stop from morn til night or even sprogging together (if you were both stupid, which you're far from), couldn't you, and dad wouldn't have a single say. Or is that the reason behind why you offered to pay - because it'd mean one double? Ha-ha - sneaky but clever! What did he say to the suggestion?

"Did update him on what my mum said too and told him to talk to her quick before Leech Face talks my mum out of it."

GOOD, EXCELLENT, because...Do you know what the original and best bonder is? A common enemy! Let's make Lena-ade out of Lena. :-D (Ps you did realise the phoneticism in "Lena"? She leans as well as sucks, innit, albeit just hasn't begun the former yet.)

Long hair? Was he a hippy like Auntie?

If you've got long, ginger hair *and* it's wavy then - I wouldn't complain because that basically makes you Rapunzel and gives you a giant USP. Grow it even longer would be my advice. But that's it for visual descriptives if you want to remain comfortably anonymous to anyone who's actually met you in RL [taps side of nostril].

I think your dad's Zero Tolerance attitude is perfectly rightful and justified, actually. The phone-addicts are the antisocial, problem-creating ones. But wouldn't it just be easier to ban mobile phone use specifically and exclusively in the waiting room or have a warning sign programmed into the electronic display board regarding lack of pandering, e.g., 'Patients please note you will be alerted that the doctor's ready to see you only twice before losing your slot'?

Reminds me of when I was (ugh, it was more just a diversion, really) online dating and this chap turned up a whole hour late to the pub. I only hung around to check he was a real person and not my unjustifiably bitter ex trying to set me up (immature little tw*t that he was). I waited in my car in the car-park, and when he eventually rolled up, spotting and making a beeline for me to explain he'd been in his garden that morning and just sat down in a chair 'for 5 mins' before promptly falling asleep, I just said, 'I hope you and your Narcolepsy will be very happy together' and drove off. After all - bit hard to drop off when you're excited/determined, eh. Nuff said ("neeext!").

Sounds like bro's having fun experimenting around. Is he a lot calmer and more well behaved now because of his new Don Juan career? ;-)

"coz I could see why but he doesn't believe I read more then one book at a time, I can, I swap each night, coz I'm weird like that"

Then so am I because I have 6 books on the go as we speak. All on the same specialist topic, though. You?

They're not books, they're mental empowerment/gym-equipment in paper format. Kindle can do one. You can't write side-notes on a kindle page and nor can you run out of batteries or charge with a paperback, CASE CLOSED. If it wouldn't work up a tree (in the event of us being forced back into the forests), I'm not interested. Plus afterwards - camp-fire kindling! LOL Can't do that with a Kindle, either (ironically-misnamed enough), fumes'd likely put you into a coma.

"he's tidy round my house and everything he owns has to have a home, doesn't like anything out of place".

Screamingly Aspie trait yet again, look. ;-) But I guess you each could just be 'son/daughter of Aspie', meaning, now just a touch of it yourselves in terms of surface habits and thinking?

"Yeah that green stuff! Will eat it but it's borning but I can tell my body wants more of it when I eat it. If that makes sense..."

Yup, perfect...

PS: no. Peanut butter and Mayo ***and Watercress - lots!***. It's got to be all three (although you can add Rocket and other peppery leaves).

Ghost is now a theatre production? (Where have I been???)

Who plays Whoopie's character? Don't tell me.... - SHERIDAN SMITH (again). :-p

*Real* Ales aren't gross. Try a half-pint of Old Thumper or Forty-Nine-er (similar). If even that's too bitter at first, ask the Barman to add a shot of Tia Maria to make an Oo-Arr-style Black Velvet (it's normally Guinness and Tia but those two old brews have a similar, albeit more subtle, consistency). And the Mead Scopes refers to is very nice as well, far more 'lady-friendly'.

Reason I said 'no beer' isn't because I don't like the taste, but because beer's the only alcohol that makes me puke or gives me a hangover from Hell. And don't even get me started on Cider ("no, not the Cider - I'll talk, just tell me what you wanna know!!!!").

*Spiced* Rum 'n Coke?? Is that new? (Again, where have I been my whole life?!)

"She's carried on her stupid tantrum about my mum thinking about coming on hol. My mum and dad actually started to talk about it and now Leech Face is now kicking up a big fuss and talking my mum out of it. I'm biting my tongue every time I see her coz she's not holding back on what she thinks and is actually being insulting about family members she hardly knows, aunty included."

Okay, now I 'despise' her.

Lils, is she straight or gay? If you don't know - what's your gut feeling?

"Aunty not coming round this weekend, too busy. What's wrong with her (Leech Face that is, not aunty) ?! I'm starting to think she's really weird/obsessed/controlling in a crazy mental sort of way. I don't like my mum living there with her . I want her out! Angry Sick"

You're not wrong. The glaringly characteristic way she's behaving, she's a Sociopath or Psychopath (Narc or Super-Narc), and not a very nice one, that's 'what's wrong with her'. Even from this distance and what 'little' you've told me - I'd put big money on it. BIG. HUGE. She's a predator, preying on your mum and trying to - wait for it - ISOLATE HER (get rid of, by alienating, her normal support network) in order to make her her slave and sadist's play-thing (push/manipulate this button and this squeak comes out, this one and lights flash, ooh, look, I can upset her, aren't I clever and powerful and this game just keeps on giving....etc.). Either that or she's desperate for lodger-money lest she ends up repossessed? But to effectively diddle a woman out of her marriage reconciliation for the sake of a steady extra income still brings us full-circle back to Narc. So she's an NPD at least,*possibly* worse.

A good friend would recognise that mum is just taking a well-earned breather and try to *help* her get what *she* wants, which is, BACK WITH HER HUSBAND BUT JUST WITH FAIRER TERMS AND RULES SHARE, BER-BOM!

Take Tom along next time, see what he says and observes. If *Tom* signals the alarm to your dad, dad will waste no time - trust me.

Alternatively/better yet - how come you can't just say to your mum everything you've just said to me and Scopes?

I reckon the storm's going to happen tonight, I can feel it in me water.

Let's tell it like it was: it was SPANISH WEATHER! I ordered it in specially (pay me later). :-) Also (phew!) ordered a Snap-Set know - the kiddie's one that needs no inflating because as soon as it starts to fill, the rigid but flexible (eh?) sides pop up automatically by themselves, and to empty it you just press the side down/in with your foot (as you sit reading one of your 6 books, lol). Insta-paddly pool. Only problem is, the Finding Nemo-style cartoon fishes on the side...which doesn't quite gel with my "serfistikaytid" Indian Ocean-style deck area, lol-didn't-care-too-hot. But I've got better things to do with my breath than blow into a tube (gaffaw-gaffaw). Like, talk and smoke and blow smoke-rings the shape of Lena (smoke-sculpture, lol) which I then right-hook (I wish).

I've only had the opp to use it twice, though, time-wise. "Meh!".

I wonder if lil sis would be up for asking "Auntie Lena" if she'd take her shopping for X one Saturday, lick-lick-flatter-flatter, so that you'd then get mum alone and once-and-for-all point out the gross trespasses and domination-attempt tactics of the woman? Otherwise, you might (which is why I say take Tom) have to rear up at her and say, 'MADAM! PUH-LEASE! *DO* YOU THINK YOU COULD ALLOW MYSELF AND *MYYYYY...*MO-THER* TO BE ALONE FOR A WHILE SO WE CAN CONVERSE ABOUT *PERSONAL, PRIIIIVATE FAMILY MATTERS*- WHAT POSSIBLE REASON TO DO WITH PROTECTING MY MOTHER'S WELFARE OR INTERESTS CAN YOU *POSSIBLY...HAVE* FOR BEING *SO GLARINGLY* SET AGAINST GIVING A MOTHER AND CHILD DUE PRIVACY! *NO-ONE* WITH ANY GOOD INTENTIONS WOULD OR HAS THE RIGHT TO DEPRIVE WE TWO OF SUCH A BASIC HUMAN GIVEN, LEAST OF ALL YOU, A MERE COLLEAGUE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!' and then stare her out until she slinks out of the room.

(And then let me know whether Tom touched your arm or passively backed you up or actually joined in. ;-))

Could you, would you? In a box? With a fox, Sam-I-Am? And stuff that Lena back into her silly pram?

PS: A hundred-and-twenty, Scopes? Good grief! Hope you've a paddly pool in your garden?

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Only a jaccuzz soulmate

I think I'll move to the Uk

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LILS or soulmate either of you live near that apartment fire? SAW that poor woman they interviewed saying where do they think we goin?

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Ah, can see what you mean about Aunties bf, no he definitely doesn't have to do anything like that, she can look after her self. Thinking about now, I wasn't too sure if he does this be supportive or if it was coming across as a bit patronising. She won't mind if I was to mention it to her (not going to) and deffinately won't hesitate in telling him if it does start to annoy her.

Well hol is all booked, my dad has just booked my mum her own room, if she wants to come. Now up to her, there's still till time. I think this is being talked about in their marriage counselling sessions and I think something might of been said and my dad has been put in his place a bit coz hasn't asked for any money from me or tom yet. Tom did offer as soon as he found out it was all booked but my dad said not to worry.

I think he was just on one of his rants about money coz he was really anxious about booking the hol, he kept on asking me what I thought and I had to sit down with him and look at the website and look through pictures with him, took him ages to book it too. And it was coz it's not America... we've been going to the same villa, in same month, roughly about the same dates so it falls on his bday, same airline, since I was like 4! He also likes to stick to a rough schedule and go back to the same places so he can say 'this time last year we were doing x' ....he's so capervating! :-P. He now madly researching where we're going, keep telling him we don't have to do that much. I'm really pleased aunty pushed him into going somewhere else coz without being ungrateful it was getting boring going back to the same place, for me there was distraction of theme parks and water parks but think it drove my mum mad.

Not too sure if my dad was a hippy he might of tried but failed :-/.

Bro is better then he was, still likes to annoy teachers at school even the nice ones and gets detentions, he says he gets bored, and likes think he knows everything. hes better at home and towards parents now.

It's the words and language leech face uses to discribe family members and was really getting to me and I was getting annoyed with myself for not saying anything. She was calling my aunt an aggressive b*tch (think we know who the actual b*tch is). Think my mum is too scared to defend my aunt to dad and wasn't in the room when she said that about sis otherwise she would of said something I'm sure.

My guts tell me leech face is poss bi/gay but there's not a lot that gives it away to say for sure. Or she's seriously sad miserable and lonely, she's got no pics of poss children or family in her house and makes it very clear she doesn't like men.

My brother ended up confronting leech face before me was trying to find the confidence. He surprised me but I could tell he's been wanting to say something to leech face too. She was being a cow (again) about the holiday now being booked and how my dad is living in a dream land if he thinks my mum is actually going to go. And bro turned round to her and said 'what's your problem if my mum does come? Do you fancy her or something?'. She got all defensive and asked what, exactly he was implying and bro was like 'I thought that was obvious' hehe and she went a bit speechless. My mum got a bit annoyed with him but bro didn't seem bothered and said leech face needed to butt out and it was up to her what she does...could of kissed him...didn't, went to Starbucks instead.

Tom wants to meet leech face and observe and he probably would join in if I found the courage to face her. He was quite impressed with bro standing up to her tho. Think I need to back bro up now and yeah, start telling my mum what I've been saying on here was worried about being horrible about one of her friends but I'm not now.

Ah im not the only one! I'm trying to find a series of books I like, at the mo I'm reading Harry Potter wasn't ever that interested before, er fifty shades of grey (or my porn books as tom likes to call then *rolls eyes*) which have got a bit boring and some other fiction books I've just added to my pile.

Had paddling pool too until the dog jump in and coz he long haired and made the water all hairy, ew, then punctured it :-|. I want to practise Lena smoke sculptures and then punch them that would be therapeutic .. but don't smoke!

Think spiced rum and coke is a fairly new thing try, a few people have tried and liked :-).

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LILS let's hope that uhhhh....well things get better here. I wondered how long it would be until someone like this would come along

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"Thinking about now, I wasn't too sure if he does this be supportive or if it was coming across as a bit patronising. "

Depends on what else he does. You need two other same-vein examples to make a 'diagnosis'.

"and deffinately won't hesitate in telling him if it does start to annoy her."

LOL - I believe you. Although, possibly not if she's distracted/pre-occupied each time and/or lately. These things have a habit of going under ones radar until it's too late because Honeymoon's over and all these 'lovely' habits have been permitted to get set in stone. Anyway, time and repetition will tell as per. (PS: nng...gggnnnn....can't manage it.... - *definitely*) (thoweeee!)

"Well hol is all booked, my dad has just booked my mum her own room"

*If* she wants to come? Giant pat on the back for dad!

Yeah, it's probably that he's calmed down before she has (plus the counsellor). There again, he was the 'first stepper' and her the 'beat later' respondent, so he would have. Holiday should do it, separate rooms or not.

" Tom did offer as soon as he found out it was all booked but my dad said not to worry."

And another!

"he was really anxious about booking the hol, he kept on asking me what I thought and I had to sit down with him and look at the website and look through pictures with him, took him ages to book it too."

Again - OH, SOOOOO ASPIE (non-technical)! Intimidated by websites and their over-busyness, visually; paranoid about making a boo-boo. And - "He now madly researching where we're going, keep telling him we don't have to do that much." - Aspies need - NEED - routine and hate surprises, even "nice" ones (hence the research to pre-familiarise himself before going). They're noticing so much else all the time (no filters, wider-than-normal radar) they simply don't have room in their jellos for things in their environment changing all the time because then they 'come at them' with everything else. It's 'sit still in the same place at the same angle SO I CAN THINK!'.

"...An' I've got one, two, three, four, five!....senses working o....ver....ti-iiime..." (- XTC, go YouTube).

"but think it drove my mum mad."

She should try the opposite - a man who creates chaos and instability (too many of them around these days, betchyerarse). THEN she'd know what side her bread were buttered on!

Anyway, appreciate that that was no mean feat on his part (and well done for having morally-supported him, I imagine he really appreciated that...A LOT...which may be why the second thought and let-off about charging you and Tom).

Bro's just a typical teenage lad (now). Good.

"It's the words and language leech face uses to discribe family members and was really getting to me and I was getting annoyed with myself for not saying anything. "

Don't be. It's not something you'd have a ready-made frame of reference for thus would be bound to shock you, even if you couldn't FEEL it.

"an aggressive b*tch "

WHAT-AH?! ...Four middle fingers and counting. (And, YES WE DO.) It's called, attempt to discredit. How ironic (and typically grossly hypocritical) that she accuses your aunt of being aggressive (as if to suggest there's no cause thus isn't a healthy, natural reaction/response)- when her very accusation is framed [wait for it] using AGGRESSIVE LINGO......hell, just suffice it to say: I'm feeling aggressive towards her, you're feeling aggressive towards her (and I expect Scopes, too)....coo, we wonder why! SHE IS INTERFERING, IMPEDING, IMPINGING with the smooth-running of their reconciliation; she is NOT pro their relationship and your mother does not need a vetter-bodyguard. And it's neither her job nor right to nor warranted or justified. She's the problem, NOT how people naturally react to her ongoing, massive boundary violating.

"My guts tell me leech face is poss bi/gay but there's not a lot that gives it away to say for sure."

Me too. And - wanna bet? I see things. Not dead people. But issues.

"My brother ended up confronting leech face before me was trying to find the confidence. He surprised me but I could tell he's been wanting to say something to leech face too. She was being a cow (again) about the holiday now being booked and how my dad is living in a dream land if he thinks my mum is actually going to go. And bro turned round to her and said 'what's your problem if my mum does come? Do you fancy her or something?'. She got all defensive and asked what, exactly he was implying and bro was like 'I thought that was obvious' hehe and she went a bit speechless."


:-) :-) :-)

Your brother is COOLIO IGLESIAS!!! He's not going to be bullied or stand by and watch anyone he cares about be bullied AT ALL, is he! Bra...VO.

"My mum got a bit annoyed with him but bro didn't seem bothered and said leech face needed to butt out and it was up to her what she does...could of kissed him...didn't, went to Starbucks instead."

Wow. Did he actually use the name Leech Face? Oh, PLEASE say yes because the name SAYS IT ALL! in Wake-Up Call (....again, sounds like a poem......but in't.)

What was mum's reaction after he said that?

PS: How come you were surprised, considering the previous FB confrontation incident?

Don't think you need to take Tom, now that bro's on the case. But do anyway. Intimidate her back into her box with numbers.

"start telling my mum what I've been saying on here was worried about being horrible about one of her friends but I'm not now."

:-D I should cocoa?!

I read Fifty Shades. Purely research. Well...wasn't to begin with but after I noticed I'd started flicking past the sex-scenes to get back to the actual story, it was. Yawn. Whip? Again? Yeah? That again, too? Again-again-again, Telly-Tubby again? Is your needle stuck, luv? Or are you just rehashing over-and-over your ONE kinky experience/fantasy? What's the message anyway - every woman grab yourself a dysfunctional, disordered, controlling and cowardly mama's boy cos they're such fun-fun-fun? Yeah. NOT. Don't WRITE about him, and CERTAINLY don't date him - just call Matron. (And that's what I say to your 'bit' comment, LOL.)

People like Lena could certainly start you smoking, let's be honest.

Does *she* smoke? ...."Here, let me light that for you-" - WHOOMPH! - "...Oops, sorry, forget I'd left it on High".

I'm going to try it. The spiced rum, not lighting Lena's head and facial hair.

Fifty Shades of Singed. :-D

(Ber-der-ber-der-ber-der-THAT'S ALL FOLKS! LOL)



"I wondered how long it would be until someone like this would come along"

You mean Lena? Did you??? Do tell! :-)

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PPS Scopes: "LILS or soulmate either of you live near that apartment fire?"

Can't say, sorry (anonymity issue). But - good grief, in THIS day and age?! Here - don't get me started or I'll never stop!

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Lol ok Soulmate the apartment fire aside. I was speaking of that soul searching person who's name I don't see up there anymore (removed) :-)

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Will be on the look out with auntys bf next time, hope he turns out to be a good one!

ah, I'm understanding my dad even more now. He's made a holiday folder
and before I would of told him it was a bit much but now I
know why! Sis asked if it was coming on holiday with us (think she was
worried about being embarressed) and he looked at her as if she was
crazy and was like 'yes!' and went into how useful it was, don't think she really cared! Really want to know, if knows he is Aspie, he must have some idea? Their Counsellor must be picking up on it?

was a bit surprised with bro confronting Leech Face because he can be
very insular and doesnt show his confidence all the time...I forget
that he will confront anyone who pushs him and he has a way with words too
:- but he has dealt with bullies at school so he's an expert. He can
deal with leech face, ill deal with my mum (y) and he has made it easier for me to back him up if I need to. Not seen that much of leech face tho, not coz bro scared her off just working. He just better not start thinking im gonna treat him to Starbuck everytime, or sis will start joining in too!

He sooo nearly said Leech Face, it was on the tip of his tounge he
started to say 'Lee....' but stopped himself and said her real name.

My mum just told him he made his point and not to say anything more
and gave bro a look. I have spoken to her since about leech face (and
everything else) and she said at the time she was remembering the FB
incident which was why she was angry with him. Thought it was a repeat erm not really leech faces deserves it, her friend didn't ! But shes finally admitted, without deffending her, that Leech Face does go too far and she's a bit too interested.

Think it all helped coz things have moved a positive way. My mum has also had time to think and over the weekend she apparently came round to the house and she and my dad had, dads words 'a nice conversation' and my bro and dad seem to thinks she's now coming on holiday separate rooms but that doesn't matter :-D. My dad is now very pleased with himself coz he showed her the website, think he was a bit nervous and wanted her to like it . yay, I'm quite relieved, I really wanted her to come coz it would not be the same without her. I wasn't home all weekend so hoping bro and dad are right, got taken to Paris with tom and megs and her bf. The boys got together and planned it, had no idea but does explain why they were both acting a bit weird last week!

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"He's made a holiday folder"

GAFFAW-GAFFAW! Ask me to *actually* put money on him being 'on the map' ASD, go on. I bloody will, you know! :-D

"Really want to know, if knows he is Aspie, he must have some idea? Their Counsellor must be picking up on it?"

Not necessarily. Depends on their work and study experience because even thought it's a born-with condition (wired that way), not a mental illness (wiring messed up), it still comes under the remit of psychiatry as takes an assessment. As for him: you'd be surprised the huge number of people of his generation and upwards who've lived their whole (harder than the average) lives without a clue, other than sensing/knowing they're different or 'unique'. You could always ask him to look into it by Googling "the AQ Test" (by Wired). It's not an official diagnosis tool but it comes PR....ETTY DAMN CLOSE ergo is accepted professionally as an accurate precursor. I doubt it would change much, considering he's managed thus far without, to point of high functioning (which makes it a GOOD thing...Normal but with a soupcon of the best of autism). But it would certainly give him peace of mind where perhaps was lacking, to know EXACTLY HOW and WHY he's different (including anally organised and far-foward thinking as a psychological security blankie aka coping mechanism).

"Not seen that much of leech face tho, not coz bro scared her off just working."

Oh, right. Just working. Yeah. No coincidence in timing whatsoever.

I don't know, though... I'd have thought it were worth a Starbucks each time?

(PS: "Leee......eean on me...When you're not stro-ong....An' I'll be your having a little sing-song, don't mind me" LOL)

"My mum just told him he made his point and not to say anything more

and gave bro a look." (etc.)

Ah-hah. Interesting. She does know, then, she ain't blind. Well, then, she must be tolerating it. For now.

"Think it all helped coz things have moved a positive way. My mum has also had time to think and over the weekend she apparently came round to the house and she and my dad had, dads words 'a nice conversation' and my bro and dad seem to thinks she's now coming on holiday separate rooms but that doesn't matter Grinning. My dad is now very pleased with himself coz he showed her the website, think he was a bit nervous and wanted her to like it . yay, I'm quite relieved, I really wanted her to come coz it would not be the same without her. I wasn't home all weekend so hoping bro and dad are right, got taken to Paris with tom and megs and her bf. The boys got together and planned it, had no idea but does explain why they were both acting a bit weird last week!"

Happy ending. :-)

PS: Did he show her his holiday folder? :-D
PPS: What about his etchings? ;-)
PPPS: No, it wouldn't have (been the same without her).

Wait up - Paris? OOH-LA-LA! Impressive! Did you do the Louvre or the Orsy?

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Oh, maybe my dad doesn't know but my mum has always suspected he is but never investigated. I think he knows he thinks and acts differently to other people. Will try and get him to do the test (somehow) coz I think it will help him. Did google and had a look. I could answer a lot of them on his behalf my self, he deff likes routine and sticking to the same things and he memories patients by d.o.b :-/... as you do!

Tom came with me to leech faces house the other day to observe but she wasnt there to start with and then when she did walked in she took one look at him and went ' ffs' and turned walked back out again haha. He doesn't normally have that effect on people. So bro might of scared her off with confronting her and she maybe thought tom would do the same. But Tom did say he didn't want to annoy my mum by saying something so was only there to observe was a disappointed he did get to.

And my mum told me today leech face is driving her her crazy now she knows she coming on hol. still about a month to go and if she bloody talks her out of coming then grrr :-@.... will keep bringing tom or bro with me. My mum said she really doesn't know what to do and doesn't want to go to another friends house. I did say she could come round more since they're being civil and there was always the spare room at home, might be pushing it and be a bit too soon for her but I just think soon they're gonna be on holiday together for a week o may as well get used to seeing each other. Right or wrong thing to say seed planted anyways.

Yeah my dad did show her his holiday folder she probably thought 'omg' coz it is very detailed but she does also like things to be organised and it does show he's being thoughtful.

Yeah Paris was awesome :-D was kind of a relaxed end of exams/school celebration. Yeah we Did do the louvre museum. Before going home we had split up from meg and bf and when we met up with them again meg was calling bf lots of names, (did feel a bit sorry for him coz there is no way tom or I was let each get away with that, name calling not cool (n)) he was accusing her of being ungrateful. Tom was not helpful when he said 'separates seat for you guys on the way home then yeah?'. Meg looked like she was about to punch both of them. There is something going on with her though coz they're still not talking and she's says she confined in him in something and didn't get the reaction she needed/wanted but won't go into anymore detail then that.

Oh well I need to sleep (for once) niiiiiighhht

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"then when she did walked in she took one look at him and went ' ffs' and turned walked back out again haha"

She did WHAT?!*!? Again - WHAT?!??! Ucking Funbelievable! And other expletives non-befitting of a Mod. Is this woman for-real?!

*Man-Hater Alert*
*Cowardly Bully Alert* (picks on smaller-than-her, scarpers the minute that bigger-than-her arrives)

"He doesn't normally have that effect on people. "

:-D :-D :-D

Well, anyway - you've found her Achilles. Which is perfectly fair enough, considering she's long found and been using your mum's.

Next time you go - assuming neither of the boys can accompany - stick a carrot down yer trousers. Actually - make it a marrow! And a fake moustache.

(Just made meself laff...made mistake of picturing it.)

Back to seriousness ("awwwwww!") - I imagine it was the fact she clocked you avidly fixated on her face as if taking a front row seat, all ready for the action to begin. Try to remember - were you?

Assuming I read your next sentance correctly: Ah, but he DID 'get to' (think about it), just not the way you'd envisaged. :-)

Leech Face is driving her crazy, eh? Nah. She won't be talking your mum out of anything. Except lodging at her house, of course. And back into the arms of your dad. (Ta-daaa!)

See how it's all panning out nicely? Fate is obviously on your side, look; turns out Lena is actually a blessing in disguise. Plus - OH BOY, is your mum going to enjoy this holiday (ha-ha - DO WHAT!?). And your dad. :-) "Cheers, Lena! And - See ya!...Wouldn' wanna be ya! :-p")

"I did say she could come round more since they're being civil and there was always the spare room at home"

You clever little stick, you! Gold star! And - yes, of course... It's no different to separate hotel rooms, is it! ...The thought, I mean (doubt it'll happen when it comes to it).

"but she does also like things to be organised"

Oh, does she indeed. Interrrrresting.... Maybe they could do the test together.

Agree with the 'being thoughtful' (and putting in massive effort = "I care big-time" + "Sorry I was a giant prat back there").


Why was Meg slagging him off? What had he done/not done?

" 'separates seat for you guys on the way home then yeah?'"

:-D :-D :-D :-D

(I tell you what, Lils. This has turned into the most hilariously entertaining thread I've ever encountered. I mean - talk about real-life sitcom?! :-D

How are you at writing?)

'Confided in him'. Ah. Just worked out what happened: Meg for the first time told him she loved him and he failed to echo it. (£10? If I'm wrong I pay you £10, if you're wrong you pay me nothing. Deal?)

If I'm right - How humiliating, poor Meg. And what a barstool. He should have found a way to Little-White lie and then waited until she were 'safely' back on home ground (her own pillow to sob into) before dismally enlightening her. *Not* gentlemanly. Rather heartless and self-centred, actually. In fact, downright emotionally cruel. More so if later it transpires he 'took it back' once they were home (if you know what I mean).

What's this guy's dating history - do you know?

I mean - put it this way: how easy IS it to "de-romanticise" your girlfriend in "Pah-rrrreeeee" of all places, let alone to that degree? I rest me case. It was something pretty big.

"Tune in next week, folks, for the next thrilling instalment of".... (What are you going to call this blog/book then film, Lils? :-))

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My mum was quite shocked and looked a bit embarrassed when leech face said coz she hates swearing. Yeah leech face is stupid coz it doesn't exactly make her out to be a 'caring friend' anymore, more bitter and twisted and a bit mental. So yeah, thanks leech face! long as my mum doesn't go back to stay with her after hol :-/ < been worrying about that. Gotta have something to worry about :-D.

Yep, I was looking at leech face and waiting for her reaction with tom being there in her house, but was not what I thought her reaction would be like... I wanted her to start making her usual snide comments. Tom is not bothered at all by what she said, he wants round 2, Ding ding!

Lol, marrow down my trousers and fake mostuche (I'm sure sis could make me one) can kinda picture it too...

Yay gold star! Also hoping if leech face carries on the way she is, it will drive my mum away from her coz we're teaching kiddies again over the summer most days, so she will be round more and she might as well start to stay in spare room :-D.

Did get my dad to look at the Aspie test and he did quite happily do it and he scored quite high but couldn't tell by his reaction what he thought coz he didn't say much. Think he either had an idea or it's sinking in and thinking about it.

Ooooooooh that is probably it! Meg still hasn't actually said what bf has done other then he's an unaffectionate b%#@+^?! And she's been really down, been trying to cheer her up :-(. I did notice that this is true (was quite obvious in Paris) meg is always the one who makes the first move as in go to hold his hand etc. even more convinced you're right coz a while ago meg was saying she was waiting for him to say 'I love you' and she was wondering if she should say it first coz she really liked him but she didn't coz she thought it was a bit too soon and I think she wanted him to say it first.

Not too sure on his dating history, he seemed nice enough to start off with, don't know him that well coz he goes to another school. Still a bit weird he join tom in planning a trip to Paris though. Can understand now why she was calling him names.

Oh I thought I went on a bit and was starting to bore ppl :-D but I like blogging. Tom keeps telling me I could turn this into a book, I like writing but don't think I got the patience to write a book. Hmm will have to think of title .....

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Very Positive up date :-D my mum and dad have gone away together till Friday, which means I'm in charge 8=) until aunty comes tomoz eve, quite pleased she is coming coz sis is seriously pushing the boundaries which aunty won't stand for.

Quite a long time alone together, as in not just a couple of days. they have obviously decided to test things before holiday, so I'm hoping this is a good idea and it won't back fire on them.

Haha Just keep thinking of leech face all alone in her house being miserable .

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(Run "sorry for the wait, as per" soundbyte loop.)

1. I would be most surprised if after a spell out of the cage your mother would find returning to it an attractive option. I mean - would you? And certainly not if it meant an unnecessary commute x 2 per day to the 'music school'. (What have you decided to name it, btw? I thought of another for you: A Minors. Or A Sharps? ...Whoops, just opened the creative Pandora's box... Crotchety Kids. "Buuurp!", tha''s bedder, lol.)

2. Yep, sounds like Lena clocked your 'waiting' face and immediately worked out that she was walking bang-slap into a waiting ambush. Never mind, it still worked out well (you can run but you can't hide, Lena).

3. Your mum must feel very flattered by all the protectiveness surrounding her of late, I must say. It'll all help to mend her dented ego that much more speedily. :-)

4. Sinking in, definitely. It's a major discovery to make, quite a headf*ck. Has he been quite quiet since?

5. I'm always right (assuming all cylinders are firing and unladen). Unfortunately. It's a talent when the news is welcome, sure, but a right ruddy curse when not (albeit, 'don't shoot the messenger', is what I say...or the messenger might shoot back..with a far bigger gun (containing Reality-Slap bullets). ;-) Have a little wander around my archive and you'll appreciate what I mean).

6. I suspect Meg's over-keenness to rush intimacy or try to squeeze it out where too little or none exists is surprisingly less about romance and more about badly wanting to secure herself a place in yours and Tom's club so as not to lose you as an easily-accessible friend? But, yeah, taking a woman to Paris does kind of set her up with the expectation of hearing him declare his feelings. So this boy's an insensitive, thoughtless little ugger as well, isn't he.

Hasn't Tom got any single, available, more diamond-like friends that you two could match-make her with? Or even another happily single mate that would hit it off with her platonically, just to make a social foursome? You never know, he and Meg might become firm friends enough to go out cruising together and each find someone that way (mutual, constant, on-the-spot reality-checker, as in, 'Ugh - him in the corner - are you mental, aim higher, luv!?')?

Well anyway, Meg has my deepest sympathies.

PS: They *all* seem nice enough to begin with. It's when they feel the other's attached to the point of reversal guaranteeing big pain that they begin letting the mask bit-by-bit slide off (those that wear one, I mean).

Feel the pain and do it anyway, is my motto. The best, most quickly effective medicine *always* tastes the worst, I've found. Short term sting versus long term misery - no bloody contest.

Yes, strange he was so keen on the idea of the trip. Maybe he prefers types like Tom and Meg was his access door? :-p

What was he like towards you?

7. What on earth made you think you were boring? Not your misconstruing my scarcity was a some excuse, surely?? Nay, lass, I've been disappearing up my own spiral! Well, anyway, I hope to be a little more available after this week as the the entire house is looking amazing (even though I say so meself). The only internal and external areas without charm or Wow factor are now the utility room, loft, garage and shed - ber-bom! The rest is looking good enough to put in Homes & Gardens (in fact, I might call them). Six months straight, with only about 2 days off, of total home alterations/improvements/decorations that by rights should have taken at least a year. I'm more knackered than I've ever been in my life, although - BY GOD you should see me muscles!!! Can't quite cut bread with them, but they've definitely got their sharp angles back. I've also lost 2 Stone that I didn't even know I had going spare! Might change my boardname to Sinewy. (Yawn quietly, please, lol.)

8. You don't have to have patience to write a book. You just write. In Stream Of Consciousness stylee, preferably. Then you take the print-outs of each 'chapter', lay them out on the floor in chronological or event order, and then create little preceding or succeeding passages as 'bridges' from one chapter or set of chapters to the next, bit like chain links in a necklace. Easy-peasy lemon squeezy. Oh, and leave the rest to the publishing editor so that he/she can feel they've been involved in writing a seller. Voila - book.

Even if you don't end up published, you've got a golden nugget of an heirloom to pass down the future generations. And it's easier to know where you're headed if first you know where you've been. Innit.

Stop Press - Update!

1. Away together until Friday???? Really??? Where to?

2. What's blister doing? Is she stealing your make-up again?

3. Test things before holiday, ha-ha-ha!!! What a pair of liars. :-D It's called, Haven't done it in months, can't wait another second! LOL

(Cheers again, Lena!)

(Don't worry about her. She's the type isn't happy unless she's miserable. Her great excuse not to have to get off her arse and make things better for herself. "Someone else do it, mew-mew".)

Let me know how the pre-holiday holiday-ette went! :-)

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Parents were quite secretive about pre holiday, I didn't know until a few days before, when they made sure I was going to be around to keep an eye on sibs. They went to Devon, which is another place they have always gone to. Both came back looking very happy and relaxed.
I do know they did have separate rooms to start off with, like they plan to on hol, but that changed. Aunty was quizzing them a lot when they got back on Friday (got them both drunk on her cocktails -god knows what she puts in them) and it went into a bit too much detail! But they are thinking about cancelling my mums room on hol, going see how next couple of weeks go.

My mum did go back to leech face's house on sat eve, was not happy with this coz I don't like her going back into somewhere negative :-| and didn't get why she even wanted to. aunty tried to change her mind too, but didn't work. she did stay fri night tho and spent all day sat and today at home. Don't think she will be at leech faces house for much longer (y). Music school will deff help coz I don't think she'll do both to do the two trips. .

Still need a name, I liked 'put a lid on it' :-D . The Parents of kids were really unhappy that music lessons wasn't on last week coz of my mum being away , wasn't gonna do it on my own, too many kids. one mum was really irate coz she was hoping to drop off her kids at 7 am, er, b*gger off love, I'm not getting up that early and I like sleep again now :-).

Yep, my dad was fairly quite since doing online test, will not surprise me if he starts to read about it or mentioned it to my mum, if he hasn't already.

One of toms friends does/did really like Meg and had once made it pretty obvious but she got with bf. They could potentially start as friends though... Her and (ex) bf have broken up now :-/. He was quite friendly with me, but I didn't really think anything more coz Tom and Megs get on well so I thought that's what he was doing with me.

Meg is excited coz next week toms mum and dad are going on holiday and he has invited friends up from Cornwall, think there is going to be at least 6 of them, Tom not included. Not enierly sure his mum and dad know this! I was going to stay away and let them have a boys week but meg has other ideas . Good luck to her coz two are identical twins and the others have the same bloody name!

Sis :-| - I wish she had only stolen my make up ! The moment my mum and dad left for their hol, was the moment she went from being her normal self to arguementitive, stroppy little ...beep. Not really too sure what brought it on, think she just decided she wasn't going to listen to anyone. I was being quite patient with her up until she told me 'I am going out with friends and you need to come and pick me up when I call you' ...oh really?! She did go out and I did pick her up where she said she was going to be but when I got there she wasn't there ...called her, she was somewhere else, drove there ...not there ...called her again and she picked up the phone laughing, and said they moved again. Told her to get back to where she said she was going to be or her sleepover with her friend was cancelled. So sis and friend came back, really should of just taken her friend back home coz they were a nightmare. Not sure who was influencing who, but sis was showing off in front of friend and bro started arguing with both of them coz they were being too loud and no one got any sleep. Not the worst thing in the world, was a sleep over, so was expecting some noise but I had an interview/talk at college for my counselling course first thing the next day, felt like a zoombie :-|.
Sis didn't really change her attitude when aunty was around either. Parents on the other hand were not impressed and they both had words with her.

Was a bit bored last week and did start to think about writing book and found all the above quite a good guide line, did get a bit bored though :-/ but will keep going.

Scopes where you gone??? :^)

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Sorry about my slacking in response. I've been somewhat preoccupied if ya know what I mean. Looking at properties and making a decision.

As for leach face you should rename her black widow

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Right now I'm faced with a four hundred pound pest.

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A four hundred pound pest ??

Ha :-D that's a good new name for leech face !

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Yep LILS rather than elaborate let's just say I volunteered for something I shouldn't have and now I have a four hundred pound pest.

Leach face is a heavy weight?

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She's overweight, is she? How's about "The Leeching Tower of Pizza"? :-D

(Politically-Correct Disclaimer [to be read in a "Grayson" from Harry Enfield voice, please - I insist]: Thuh viewwwairs airt huuurm, pliz note: the above comadeh sl*ttery exclooodes those with obeeesity-causing medical condishyons, wun is tooorking abite greedy piggies, as eeyun,
"yourhomemaybeatriskifyoutrytoexitthroughthefrontdoorifyoufailtokeepupdiscipline, and [Grayson voice Off] I can't WAIT for pigging Brexit like we pigging WON THE VOTE FOR, HELLO, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE - VOTE-WINNING = IT HAPPENS?!

Barstools. Anyway...)


...Eyup chucks! :-)

First off...

"Parents were quite secretive about pre holiday, I didn't know until a few days before, when they made sure I was going to be around to keep an eye on sibs. They went to Devon, which is another place they have always gone to. Both came back looking very happy and relaxed.
I do know they did have separate rooms to start off with, like they plan to on hol, but that changed. Aunty was quizzing them a lot when they got back on Friday (got them both drunk on her cocktails -god knows what she puts in them) and it went into a bit too much detail! But they are thinking about cancelling my mums room on hol, going see how next couple of weeks go."

:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

(Bye-bye "Lena, Bombena, Stickalena (haha!), Fifena, Fifena, Stickalena, that's how you spell 'BUT STILL CALL MATRON!!!')


Ha-ha, got them drunk. She could have taught the Gestapo a sauver thing or two, your Auntie, LOL, or joined MI5 or SIS as an English Mata Hari (...without the firing-squad bit). High Five to "Her Royal Sneakiness-For-The-Power-Of-Goodliness" yet again!)


I suspect it's a case of, having had a chance to 'de-slime' by going away with your dad and things on that score going brilliantly - i.e. relaxing, coming back down from high DefCon, regaining her confidence and, with it, better judgement and thinking - your mum felt an urge to go back to Lena's to take a fresh look at the (er) woman that, it'll have now properly and fully hit her, took advantage of her in what might well have been the emotionally darkest hour of need of her entire life, now that it appears she's no longer in a desperate enough position to have to tolerate the (er) woman. She can suddenly afford to feel mightily p*ssed-off. Maybe with the intention of confronting and putting her back in her place or more simply and ladylike-ly to show her her stronger, assertive side? Or just to newly scrutinise in order to devise whatever strategy for dealing with her at whatever point later?

Quite right too!...Needed a friend, helper, rescuer - got The Kiddie Catcher from Chitty-Chitty :-p (and your mum *was* still in the foetal position at the time so may as well have been a kiddie, let's be honest). I mean, if you're fantastic at manipulation and are GONNA manipulate someone, at least manipulate them towards their own (assuming Sensible) flippin' goal and not your own, eh! Anything else is ultimately FUTILE plus *everything* has a "comes around" - When, not If. ...But I'll stop there cos I ain't gats time to soapbox and I think I already did this one a time before. (You're welcome, LOL.)


Re. Put A Lid On It (- would you add an exclamation-mark?). The thing to do before deciding is, conduct a poll amongst all your customers, friends, family, anyone that'll listen, basically, to get some 'customer' feedback. And give them a choice of, say, five potential names. If you want my opinion then, personally, if I'm honest (by which I mean blunt, LOL), I think I prefer Nanna Joanna because it's short, catchy (imagine the radio jingle in years to come!), self-explanatory (if written in Black & White, one character per piano key...and ta-daa, possibly there's your logo...albeit
and alternatively, a correlation exists between the letter J and the shape of one half of a "grahnd pee-ah-no", likewise note, fellow ivory-tickler (as you picture an equally tiny pianist sat at the head of that 'J', LOL, I know that's what you're doing right now, go aaaan, admit it! Or - it is now? :-D)), plus both aspects of the business are conveyed efficiently and get a moreover equal billing. Yet note it's not NannY, as if to suggest a full-blown nannying or childminding service with all that that entails (registering with the council (waiting weeks/months...), Police background checks (waiting...), Health & Safety checks (waiting 'n gnashing...), just for starters. NannA - as in gran-gran - only babysits ...something that's still a free enterprise, small-scale thus exempt from tax, ta-da! (until you're ready to register it and start doing book-keeping and annual tax returns yawn)...or was when I last looked, anyway (best check!)

I realise you're not a grandmother (cuz I iz clever like dat), but that bit refers to the piano itself - it, in a way, being the sitter. Plus your name isn't Joanna, anyway (as you might already be aware?). Hence - "Nanna Joanna". (Er..I probably could have explained that in one, succinct sentance but - your good news has gone to my head.)

[slaps own face]

Biz Question: Did your mum think to check with you that you were okay about her leaving the business 'in suspenders' for a few days whereby it could likely piss-off customers or potentially, worse-case-scenario, even lose their regular custom? Or was her mind naturally, totally focused on the wee trip? There again, if "Mother Executive", there, is having a badly restrained go at you, at your age, for shutting up shop for just a week, I repeat, at your age, then you might want to veer away from mothers so time-short and desperate that they're wrongly treating you from The Off like an actual, 'do or die' childminding service, rather than a more informal baby-sitting one combined with the main objective of piano tuition, whereby they think they can act like you've failed to live up to your side of the non-existently implicit or tacit bargain, as if you actually *were* a bona fide childminding service?

How are you describing the service you offer to prospective biters? If you like, give me yours or your mum's sales pitch or descriptive to friends so I can check whether you're unknowingly giving such types too much room for leverage or maybe inadvertently promising them a rose garden or even just letting them run with a misinterpretetation?

And I presume your mum is all too aware, that under normal circumstances for the sake of the biz's reputation, that kind of impromptu holiday can't happen without a prior board vote (which is, two Ayes - motion passed, one Nay - motion denied, where assuming equal partner status and, at this point, intellectual-only shareholding)? Or that if the business functioning depends on there being two of you at all times, within reason, that you two should think about getting in a third member, even just as occasional emergency on-call staff in the form of any friends or acquaintances who are musical, need the extra dosherooni, and capable of spontaneity?


Your dad might have a sudden giant reaction - just to warn you - aimed at the wall (not literally), rather than anyone in particular (nothing personal). Might not. But just be aware and bear it in mind (and sympathetically warn the others), would be my advice. Because the more one suddenly looks into it, the more one realises how BIG A "THING" it is! And yet, how tiny. And yet, how BIG! Yet, how tiny... ("aargh, mind can't cope!").

(It's both.)


Meg turned down the nice guy for the idiot, eh? Maybe not ready for an even semi-serious, moreover drama-free relationship, then. Yep - going in through the Friendship Door is a good idea in that case. He can give her subtle examples by which to recommend himself and start to appeal to her, and meanwhile, she can 'de-slime' and recover from her 'internal injuries' so that she's back to being as fit as he is (else it could end before it's begun).


Uh-oh, to Tom's secret "gathering", I see trouble brewing in them there hills (dan-dan-daaaaan!). He does realise he'll have his pocket-money stopped if the folks do find out or one of them burns a hole in the carpet? LOL


Re Meg's ex: Just checking.


Re blister, "challenging the alpha female substitute while the cats are away". I think that says it all, actually. But you know what to say next time they're away and she need a lift, don't you (which, for starters, she ought ask nicely for). She'd have to beg and go, 'Oh, please-please-please-please-pleaaase, I *promise* this time I'll [etc.]' and then you can make her wait on tenterhooks as you 'Hmm...need to think about it...'. If she's really had to earn the perk to recoup it, she'll be less likely to abuse it in future with her and her friends' silly game-playing (and I'd have made her sit the whole way back in the boot or tied to the roof-rack, or no dice, LOL).

But, you never know, she MIGHT, subconsciously, have deliberately chosen that very time to be naughty, to see whether just mum or just dad or both as the united and fully-functioning front of old, would be telling her off? As a less arguable sign of how the (cough) trip had gone, I mean? She *can* be an acter-outer using passive-aggressive avoidance (remember the paddy when out shopping with dad)?


Zoombie. Is that a hybrid Zombie or something? :-D Well, I sincerely hoop you cooped ookay in the end? And did you tell the coouncellor you'd been kept up all night, babysitting your blister? Or did the ooportunity not arise? [ducks shoe] [...shoooe]

What did her face look like when she emerged from said serious talk? And did they make her apologise to yooou?


Scopes: "I volunteered for something I shouldn't have and now I have a four hundred pound pest."

Let me guess. Ummmmm...... Got it! You volunteered as makeshift barber for your local, big friendly giant, whom, unfortunately, had giant-sized nits, and came away infested by one of them.

Am I close?

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And I'd have made her sit the whole way back in the boot or tied to the roof rack....would that be gagged and tied? Just kidding! Lol no Soulmate I'm afraid your not even close.

It's a somewhat of a long story. Let's just say this person is the son of a friend of my mothers.

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I'd have tied her with Strawberry Licorice laces and shoved one of those giant marshmallows in her mouth (which would definitely have kept her busy the whole journey home - AND THEN SOME! (I know because I've tried one!)).

Sweeties. For having been 'good'. LOL

Er... you're not saying you did one favour or rescue mission and now this person's gone and latched on seemingly permanently? mean that kind of pest?

(It's not Lena in drag, is it??)

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No, leech face is the oppersite she's underweight, her head is bigger then body, looks like a lolly pop ...leech shaped 'course.

My mum is stay at home in the week :-D coz she can't be bothered to go back and fourth from leechs faces. she went back once at the weekend but come back with a load of things so she's clearly moving herself out of there. Would like to know how leech face is taking this :-D . If she's being a cow and not taking it well then I hope my mum has become more assertive with her which she is quite capable of doing she's not completely soft.

My mum had been talking about taking the first week of them summer hols off just for a bit of a rest and she did email everyone with holiday dates. Was a bit short notice though but he so was the pre hol, my mum and dad were probably thinking about it for ages. I think the irate mum actually needs a full time nanny coz she's asked me a few times now if I would babysit for her at the weekends, this is a full weekend with over night thanks, I have a life!
Business is advertised as music lessons and kids can stay all day or half a day. If it's all day I try to give them a lesson in he morning and afternoon, depends how busy it gets but otherwise there are other things for them to do. Think we deff will need a third adult soon more and more people are finding out about it :-/. Ah thats a good idea will do a pole for name of business.

Found a role for my dad to do too which is the money side, likes anything to do with numbers and it has stopped him moaning about house being a crèche (y). Think it's also made him realise it's a good idea.

Yeah think meg did turn down the nice guy but I plan to put this right :-) seem to of got over ex bf quite quick.

Tom could of got into trouble but thank fully he did tell his mum and dad he had friends coming and promised to keep house tidy and made sure he could use all the rooms for them to sleep in (should have more faith in him, bad me) .
The only thing I think they did in the day time was play on his bl**dy Nintendo Switch game thing and go out at night for food, which is why I planned to stay away coz I thought meg and I would get ignored!
Was a good thing Tom stuck to his promise, coz his middle brother came back from somewhere (travels a lot and comes and goes when he wants) and the first thing he did was throw a bit of a childish tantrum and chuck toms friends things out of 'his room' on to the landing, and then called parents, to complain. They were not impressed that their hol interrupted but they backed tom up, which his bro didn't like :-/. Then tom and bro had an argument and in the end his bro did leave to go somewhere else. Tom did provoke him a bit by sarcastically saying 'why don't you go and stay with your gf...oh no, wait sorry I forgot, she dumped you again, for being a tw*t' , not completely innocent!
Only meet middle bro a few times but it's very obvious he has some sort of jealousy with tom taking his place of being the youngest which was 18 nearly 19 years ago! He constantly makes snide comments about it, and it does get annoying after while. Hes like 14 years older, makes him look a bit weird but maybe there is more to it . Tom will either ignore him say something back, or his mum and oldest bro usually stick up for him.
Did suggest to tom now that his friends have gone and him and bro have another 3 days alone together that he could do a peace offering and cook for him one night. Don't have to sit, eat and talk but might be a nice thing to do maybe? But tom looked at me as if was crazy...and was like WHY would I do that?! Ok that's a no then! I find it interesting, which is why I'm writing about it and also it's on my mind a bit coz they're alone together and when I have been there the tension is obvious :-/.

Haha, I so would of strapped sis to the top of my car, if it was legal :-D. I did tell her at the time when she was showing off that I wasn't going to give her anymore lifts for the rest of the summer and her answer was 'whatever! You can't even go to the right place anyway!' . Grrrrrr, I could tell by the look on her face she just wanted a reaction so I didn't give her one, even tho I really, really, really, really, really wanted to, decided to it was better to keep mouth shut till parents got back.
Sis was angry with me after serious talk with my mum and dad coz I told on she really thought she was going to get away it! I thought my mum was going stick up for her and say she's just at that awkward age but they were both really angry with her and said she better hope I get on my course. She was told to apologise but she refused and said everyone was being mean to her, then stormed up to her room and slammed the door. Still wait for an apology...Bye bye cute lil sis, hello monster sis (6).

Kinda coped in interview, did tell them I had no sleep, just incase they thought I had been out partying all night and wasnt taking interview seriously, they were nice about it. I had to do a maths and English test, which was not prepared for but apparently these subjects are added on as extra lessons, ugh I escaped maths! Think it was to see if I had a brain :-P .

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Soz, Lils - insanely busy again!

Have read your post, though, and will respond just as soon as I get a (asnaffafckunasnukkAAARGH!!!!) chance! Been planning to for ...well, since the day you posted, actually! Just posting this little note is an achievement, lately. Gaaah...

Do you know, I've forgotten what it's like to have a day of rest!

Anyhoo, enough screechy whiny violin nonsense from moi; bear with a little longer.

(Where's Scopes got to, anyway?)

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LILS, Soulmate sorry about the lapse in time. I've been hit with problems and situations. A co worker/friends wife died whom I knew. Then I get a report from the assisted living social worker saying they feel that it's necessary to bring in hospice for my mother.

All this drama is beginning to settle down here as I've been putting out fires so to speak whew! August has not been a good month..... Mercury retrograde?

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Oh noooo, Scopesie! Sorry. :-(

PS: *Life* is dramatic (all say "Aye!"). It literally *is* a roller-coaster (psych version).

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Human lollypop, LOL. Must be why she's getting licked!

[ducks rotten tomatoes and bricks]

No, were I her, I wouldn't feel bothered to go back and forth, either. LOL (Cor, your mum is so diplomatic, isn't she? I'd have just said - 'Am I going back? Do what? - back to Colditz? - God, NO, bleugh!')

"Would like to know how leech face is taking this Grinning "




"no thanks, I have a life!"

Damn right. And you shouldn't sprog until you're almost BORED of it. (- Note that one, it normally costs £1890 to send away for from The Bureau of Deceptively Useful Life Facts (of which I am, indeed, president - why'd you ask?). Don't ever say I don't ever give you anything.)


It's not just music lessons, then, is it. It's music-centred. But even if you're giving them two separate lessons, they're still only an hour-long each, surely?, making just two hours out of presumably 8.30-5.30, leaving 7 more hours?

Are any of the other activities you do with them, likewise music- or rhythm-based? Otherwise, it's 'music 'n stuff' so you need to think of a name that encapsulates that.

It's still 'Nanna Joanna', I'm afraid. You have both the babysitting aspect and the piano lesson theme in that one name. But that's not to say it's the only name or phrase that could do that. Get your thinking caps on...

What about Crechendo? Or does that veer too heavily back towards the childminding, as opposed to merely babysitting, angle?

Is your piano a grand or baby grand? If so, you could think of a name that began or included the word 'Grand', as in 'a grand old time' or "Grand Designs", that sort of thing.

What about if the third person you brought in were a registered childminder (with limited work right now)? You'd then have a team of 3 (partner-wise or partners and associate), comprising, music teacher, form tutor, and playground monitor stroke pastoral carer.

Oh WELL DONE for getting your dad involved! Genius!

Oh, well, it's a family biz already, isn't it. In which case - Sound of Music. The Vonn Trap. Nah. Too negative (shh!, I'm brainstorming, stream of consciousness style LOL)... Hills Alive? Too obscure. Bloody nora. I know it's in there somewhere....

Doe Ray Mee.

I know it's a little more brand-like than explanatory, but... easy to remember? :-) ...denotes the musical aspect? It's akin to Supersize Me. As in, "DOE RAY me!". But then, it fails to suggest the babysitting angle (meh). Scrap that.


It's a high-altitude flower (talented, ambitious kids). It's White (innocence of childhood). It's cute-looking and wee. And star-shaped. It grows and long as it's nurtured and fed, including (this case) intellectually and emotionally. The flower itself would make a GREAT logo or logo feature! And it brings instantly to mind The Sound Of Music which itself then evokes images of the nanny + the captain (Christopher Plummer sang it) + ....bloody kids everwhere! LOL And keeping them educationally - ALWAYS educationally - entertained (learning through play).

Houston, I think it's a goer. May I schedule a board meeting to get your feedback, Ma'am? LOL

Anyway, enough of that or I'll be here all night.


Hah! You two wouldn't have been ignored. You'd have been shown off to and postured in front of... [David Attenborough voice, please]...."Thee...COMPETING MALES...BEGIN-their...mating rituals...ON their Nintendo Switch Game show off...their front,..however,...thee females....are, REALISING... the males...switch to their OTHER tactic of....seeing who can take the piss..out of one another....the best ...and most hilariously................Whicheveroneofthem...WINS......earns..thee ...GRUDGING respect...of thee....alphafemale.....................Although this is..not...themost EFFICIENT of copulatory apparently is....vital TO.. thesurvival....of...thisparticular..specie."

PS: Unrelated question: Have you seen Summer anywhere? It is PEEING down outside right now! :-p


Wot, I gotta deal with his middle brother now? LOL

(Book an appointment with my secretary, Scopes.)


Anyhoo, that was a really positive post. As for blister: sounds like she (sub-c) prepared a little two-part test of, Is Lily still on the kid bench or the grown-up's bench, let's see, and, Will mum and dad act united in telling me off as a twosome? (She's such an acter-outer, isn't she?)

You might want to strike alegience with her over something...create a little secret between you (nothing harmful), I don't know... just to drive home the point that you can be BOTH for a while, but that doesn't mean she can push her luck and manipulate you.


"Kinda coped in interview, did tell them I had no sleep, just incase they thought I had been out partying all night and wasnt taking interview seriously, they were nice about it. I had to do a maths and English test, which was not prepared for but apparently these subjects are added on as extra lessons, ugh I escaped maths! Think it was to see if I had a brain"

Yeah, maths - go figure (har-har). "Tdell me aboudt yurr childt-hoot.........und the square roodt of Pi".

Mebbie it's to see whether your left hemisphere is as strong as your right, i.e. that you're balanced? After all, you can't be a good therapist if you're all Cap'n Kirk. But neither can you if you're all Spock. Ya needs both.


What bin 'app'nin' since then-then?

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My mum is home permanently now, going back and fourth from spare room to her and my dads room and otherwise they're getting in quite well :-D.

Have seen leech face recently, she's been round a couple of times since my mum has been back home and she even said hi to me, which I don't thinks she's ever done before. Was very tempted to do what she did with tom and go 'ffs' when I saw her but didn't. Cat quite tell if my mum is happy to have her in our house or if she's just being polite. My dad has also been looking at her suspiciously too, not too sure if she's trying to keep her self involved. Clearly had nothing else better to do with her time!

It's guitar lessons too but piano (got a baby grand piano) seems to be more popular. So maybe strings and keys or erm... I'm .really bad at coming up with names! ohhh, I like doe ray mee, that's going on the list!
Littler kids get bored after 20 mins even with encouragement the older ones who are more advanced seem to have longer attention spans, and are more keen if it's more modern music they like.
My mum does have a couple of friends mainly teachers, one is very musical, who could help out when the times one which I think will be in oct half term and at xmas.

I found my self confronting toms middle bro, told him to shut up a round about sort of way. The short version is he was being a pedantic idiot, kept muttering sh*tty things in ear shot of me, but behind toms back and picking on every little thing he said and did, so I challenged him, something that I don't normally do :-/. And his gf (I don't even know her), backed me up, nice to know it wasn't just me! He got defensive with what I said and walked off in a mood saying he didn't have to listen to a 'little' (little! :-|)18 yr old :-| so I pointed out that actually we were both adults and I didn't have to listen to him either. Probably thought b*tch but I didnt care and normally I would sit and worry but meh. He's been quite nice to me since :-/.

What's been happening since is I got on counselling course on the advanced course rather then intermediate :-/ not with the same tutor but never mind . Tom going to uni which ovbiosuly knew but it's bl**dy hours away by car, hoping train will be better, have mixed feelings about this.

Yeah sis is deff is acting out at the mo but fiiiinally got an apology from her, after a couple of days she was being nice and wanting to know if I got on the counselling course.

yeah, think we missed out summer?! All I've seen is rain too, and it's been a bit muggy but that's it. I get to go somewhere warm tomoz :-D. prob turn into a 'lobster for a week and probs come bk to even more crap, colder weather brrrr.

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LILS guess we'll have to see what happens with your mum and dad in the long term. How long Leech face will be in the picture is uncertain.

I can't really think of anything else to say right now I think my mind is somewhere else.

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"My mum is home permanently now, going back and fourth from spare room to her and my dads room and otherwise they're getting in quite well"

Made the usual mistake of picturing this "musical beds" scenario and ended up peeing myself laughing.

Getting in. Was that a Freudian?

No, but, actually - all credit to your mum. She's not making the usual female mistake of forgiving him in one fell swoop (i.e. pre-paying for good behaviour) and is making him earn it back in stages (tick!). I wonder if that was Auntie's tip-off or just an instinctual move on her part?

LF is being nice because this time she's on your territory. I'd actually have more respect and make more mental allowance for her were she continuing to be as much a cow as before. Get what I'm saying?

"Hi".... I'd have replied, 'I wasn't, but now you're here, it might help'.

"Was very tempted to do what she did with tom and go 'ffs' when I saw her but didn't."

...or that, LOL. No, you're too much of a lady. You could probably get bro to say it, though, LOL.

I think mum's probably just being polite and intends to phase her out/wean her off imperceptibly for the sake of future office relations.

Not surprised your dad's eyeballing her 'slittily'. You did inform him that time, did you not?

"got a baby grand piano)"

At your age? You pampered little princess, you! LOL

Ping! What if you just called it Baby Grands? (Doesn't cover the guitar or other activities, but it is a good global concept?)

Or there's Apron Strings?

(God, here s/he goes again...)

I like Doe Ray Mee as well. Try it out with 'the board', see what they think. Not 'erm', though, LOL.

Strings 'n Things? Nah, takes the focus away from the piano (one thinks of keys rather than strings) plus sounds too 'craft-y'.

I still like Tinkle Tots, actually.

What about Tinka Plinka (as in, a play on Little Tinker)?

Wait - I've got it: GONE CHOPIN! Or GOING CHOPIN. Do either of that say it all or what! (Thoughts?)

There again, if we're going down that route (well, I am, you're more getting dragged along, LOL), then...

All Bach (as in, and no bite).

Do you play or teach anything by Einaudi, by the way?

"who could help out when the times one which I think will be in oct half term and at xmas."

Que? And would you like an olive in that? LOL

Ahh, it's nice that you defended Tom like that. I'll bet he appreciated it.

I'd (just to piss you off with yet another missed bat-back repartee) have said, 'I'd rather be a little 18-year-old than a little 2-year-old'. Or, 'Frankly, from what I've seen - I'm surprised you can count that high'. But obviously whatever you did say did the trick if there he was, very next time, licking your behind.

You got offered a place on the advanced course? Blimey, well done!!! They know talent when they see it, then? :-)

"Tom going to uni which ovbiosuly knew but it's bl**dy hours away by car, hoping train will be better, have mixed feelings about this."

Well, you knew it was an unavoidable inevitable. But look on the bright side: every occasion is going to feel all the more special for the build-up. Plus, it's a good test of your relationship. But not that much because, well, student holidays aren't exactly few and far between, are they. PS: "ovbiosuly " :-D

How many hours exactly? And how long's his course for?

Sis: that you got an apology both vocal and behavioural is the main thing. A lot of siblings just don't. Ever. So she at least has more maturity than not. ...Either that or she needs another lift somewhere in the next few days, LOL. Watch that space..

Hot again at the mo so - mustn't grumble.

Oh, yes, your holiday, I almost forgot! I expect you're on it as I speak? (Silence means Yes LOL.)

Anyway, all chat aside, that's brilliant news about the folks! I'll wait to hear how things panned out on the beach and off, then.


Scopes, try to think of where you were when you last had it. ;-)

(Sounds rude - isn't. LOL)

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I know it was in regards to the 400 lb pests. With his persistence with emails and pestering me he now finally wants to end his partnership with me.

As is far as I'm concerned the never was one. When I go back to Cali to visit my mom I'll give him back his whole kit and caboodle and that'll be the end of it.

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I just became a hi to parents divorced 4 years ago,my mum only just told me .my father cant talk with parkison' mother has a new boyfriend and kicked my father out...I am devastated,as are my children and my brother.....

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Did your mom divorce your dad because of his Parkinson's disease? How awful....did you start a thread? I haven't looked, that's so wrong. ;-(

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Gonna get some feed back on a name to music school next week and get a name sorted ...hopefully.

Wouldn't surprise me if aunty gave my mum some advice but it feels different this time as in the timing is right and doing it properly, which hopefully means it's permanent, unlike last time.

There has also been a little bit of a change in my mum, which is that she's more assertive, keeping an eye on sibs behaviour (mainly sis at the mo, bro is an angel in comparison) and says what she thinks more but it's all being done without her turning in to ice queen, which is what she did a bit last time.

Yep get what your saying, Ok, I'll be nice to leech face for the moment but I'm keeping an eye on her! Yep my dad knows all about her, think he's waiting to see if she says anything offensive first.

Holiday was good, aunty and dad picked a nice place, my dad is taking all the credit at the moment. Hopefully it's another country he'll happily go back to he seemed to like it.

Parents went on a couple of day trips out and they did also cancel my mums room and she was going to share with sis if she needed to. Don't think this happened. Bros room was next to theirs and he was giving daily up updates and by day three he just said 'I need ear plugs!' Did feel a bit sorry for him but not enough to swap rooms with him, which he was trying to persuade tom and I to do coz our room was safely far away.

Some eventful things did happen. My dad managed to embarrass me on the way there, was going to happen at some point. He was sitting next to tom on the plane and not long after take off, tom nudged me and said 'should be he flattered?' Didn't know what he was on about until I saw my dads hand wrapped around his forearm (my dad hates flying, my mum holds his hand during take off and landing but she was with the sibs stooping them from fighting). When I told my dad to Get.Off. realised he had completely zoned himself out and probably taken a sleeping tablet or something. At least he wasnt actually holding toms hand and luckily tom has a sense of humour/wasn't too freaked out. Steered clear of him on the way back though.

And sis! Can't say she was behaved on hol coz she didn't. She was pushing everyone's buttons and managed to argue with everyone (but tom) before we got on the plane. On the second day she threw my dads 'holiday folder' in the swimming dad kinda let out a girly scream :-/ and was too concerned about retrieving it to say anything to her. It my mum who was the first react and then took her back to the hotel room when she refused to apologise, to have words and sis stayed there for most of the day sulking. But coz of my mums reaction I'm guessing they have spoken to each other about my dad possibly being asperger.

Toms course is 3 years. It's nearly 5 hours away and that's without traffic/stops and by train it's not much better. Not just the distance it's everything I'm worrying about, but I can't tell him what to do but it was a topic we completely avoided talking about on hol. Had a nice with him though :-) it seemed more special. He doesn't know the meaning of chilling out by the pool though. There was quite a lot to do and he intended on doing evvvvvvvverrrrrrryyything some more then once. I had him bouncing at my feet very few hours going 'Lils do to you to go waterskiing, play tennis/snorkelling (I got stung by jelly fish doing that, that was fun!)/ waterskiing/go out on a boat????'. Couldn't say no to him either.

Was surprised I'm on the advanced course, I double checked this but apparently they think I'm more suited and want to see how I do in the groupwork session. This was explained in the interview where once a week we sit as a group and a mentor person, who we don't know comes in and there is no topic, we see 'what comes up' ...think I explained that right. Apparently people react in different ways. Could be interesting will find out this week! Bye.

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LILS water skiing is quite invigorating give it a go!!

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Scopes, Can see what you mean about water skiing being invigorating, I did try a couple of times but it was hard staying up ! Think you're either good at it or not :-S

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LILS i used to have a boat and had a go at it a few times. I'm not real good at it by manage to get by. Happiest days of a boat owner are the first day you get it and the last day ya get rid of it.

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" i used to have a boat and had a go at it a few times."

Now that *definitely* sounds rude. :-D (Is that why sailors refer to all such vessels as 'she'?) (Was she a goer, that's what *I* want to know, LOL)


What was the consensus of your poll, name-wise?

I've got another for you: Li'l Fingers. Or Li'l Maestros. (Geddit?) After all, it was all your idea?

So when's Tom going to take a role, eh? He's a psychologist, he should find sales and marketing, or strategising of, as natural as f*rting - yes?


"Wouldn't surprise me if aunty gave my mum some advice but it feels different this time as in the timing is right and doing it properly, which hopefully means it's permanent, unlike last time."



Noooo. Was *not* suggesting you go out of your way to be nice to that thing. I was trying to point out that if the woman's excuse were lack of realisation or control then how come she could manage to rein it in, just because she were in a different building? So - GOTT'ER! This proves she knew perfectly well what she were doing (and why) and proves she's toxic. So if you want to shove a custard pie in her face (custard and cactus) then I trust your judgement implicitly and that you did so because it was at the time necessary or befitting, not to mention now your right. You have a right to self-defend against anyone over anything that dares to threaten your fundamental, humanistic rights.

What's the latest on that score, anyway?


"my dad is taking all the credit at the moment."

Knowing Auntie as I feel I do, now - I'm betting she advised he do so, for obvious reasons.

Hopefully, it's another country he'll *not* want to go back to, considering your mum was evidently sick of all the 'going back'. Now that he's been forced by events and circumstances to step out of his comfort zone, WITH success, he should continue doing that until being out of his comfort zone in that regard *becomes* his comfort zone (sense?). Tell him, 'Dad, the Where matters not, you obviously have a talent for doing things properly and thoroughly whereby failure and disappointment doesn't even factor, so - why not use that skill and surprise and wow mum for those Brownie points EVERY year!'.


"he just said 'I need ear plugs!' "

Good grief, LOL. Still - they were obviously having a good time if remembering he was just the other side of the wall didn't enter their heads!


"He was sitting next to tom on the plane and not long after take off, tom nudged me and said 'should be he flattered?' Didn't know what he was on about until I saw my dads hand wrapped around his forearm (my dad hates flying, my mum holds his hand during take off and landing but she was with the sibs stooping them from fighting). When I told my dad to Get.Off. realised he had completely zoned himself out and probably taken a sleeping tablet or something. At least he wasnt actually holding toms hand and luckily tom has a sense of humour/wasn't too freaked out. Steered clear of him on the way back though."

:-D :-D :-D Classic! And anecdote fodder for years to come!


"And sis! Can't say she was behaved on hol coz she didn't. She was pushing everyone's buttons and managed to argue with everyone (but tom) before we got on the plane. On the second day she threw my dads 'holiday folder' in the swimming pool"

'Look at me, look at me, LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!'.

PS: "my dad kinda let out a girly scream"

:-D 'Not the folder, it took me WEEKS, noooooooooo!!!!'.


Tom's uni: I'm guessing Wales. There'll be luvverlee for him, then.

Yeah... Five hours... yeah....See what you mean. Well, that's the downside. The upside is, BECAUSE it demands such a long, arduous journey, you'll either of you stay for a good week or more at a time. Comme ci, comme ca / Asi, como este. Alternatively, there's always halfway hotel or B&B?


"Couldn't say no to him either."

Couldn't you? Why not?

PS: Jellyfish?... on a tennis court? Isn't evolution marvellous!

('Holiday-based comedic-complaints forms are situated here ---> --->........and here --->')


"Was surprised I'm on the advanced course"

Tsk. You need to ketchup to yourself, Baby Tomato.


" This was explained in the interview where once a week we sit as a group and a mentor person, who we don't know comes in and there is no topic, we see 'what comes up' ...think I explained that right. Apparently people react in different ways. Could be interesting will find out this week! Bye."

Improv. To see if you can deal with 'left field'.

So how was it? (Sell.)

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PS: Who won? You or the jellyfish?

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I like those new suggestions too! From the poll so far doe ray mee is coming out on top but I'm still waiting to here back.

In the summer hols tom did come round and started to kick a football around with some of the kids, which they really liked if they didn't want to do arty stuff and did turn into a nearly everyday thing . He also thinks we should do a website, not that he knows how to build one but probably knows someone who does. Might be a good idea, just don't want to overadvertise coz we got enough kids coming at the moment but other info could go up on website like holidays and stuff.

Ooooh I see, Well haven't gone out of my way to be nice to leech face, only acknowledge her if I have to. Custard pie ready and waiting if needed :-). No sign of her since coming back from holiday, was half expecting her to be waiting outside the house on a the day we got back but she's stayed away... so far...maybe she's gone and got a life!

To be fair to sis, she knows my dad is potentially asperges but I don't think she's understands properly, so ive been enlightening her a bit, now that she's stopped being moody, but only when she feels like listening, think there is other stuff going on at the moment.

Couldn't say no coz I didn't want tom to get bored :-/ and it was quite nice that he was wanting to try everything. Bro was more then happy to go and do something with him if I really didn't want to. Er jelly fish would of won at tennis, think anything could beat me! Tom realised how crap I was and bro took my place quite quickly :-(.

Toms going to uni in the north east, sat nav says 5 hours, I'm not convinced. We have now talked which at first turned into an argument, I knew it would! There was tension building up but neither of us wanted to go there. Tom said that he can't get excited or talk about it much coz me and his mum are going all 'emotional on him' ( so sorry about that *rolls eyes), he really hates clinginess but it's actually more his mum who's getting like this, not me, but I think that's normal for her to be like that. I just don't like how quickly the time is going. He also said that he actually feels quite anxious about it, which apparently I wasn't taking the into consideration, but he didn't tell me and when I pointed out that he choose to go to the furthest one away, he got angry :-/. Anyways was a bit stupid, and we both realised it isn't worth arguing about, and wouldn't be a good start so just got to find ways of making it work and finding nice places to meet up half way is one idea.

I like college, made a few girly friends, which I was seriously lacking in, not on the same course as them though. Like the tutor, he's a bit more calmer then the other one, and like that I got lots of books to read.
The first group session was a bit weird coz our tutor leaves and a mentor person comes in but doesn't say anything or introduce herself, we were told her name beforehand. If you say hello to her she just nods at you, which a few people got really offended by and don't understand why she's even there. This week it was just random talking. I think it get it, I think she is there to observe us, maybe indivially and take mental notes as to how we react to whatever comes up. I'm waiting for it to kick off :-).

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Well LILS Soulmate mum passed away last Thursday 7:15 pm. She died peacefully and she lived a long life. ;-(

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Thanks scopes. Aw no! that's sad, sorry to hear that Soulmate :-(.

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LILS there was no quality of life left for her. Btw it was my mum not Soulmates sorry for the misunderstanding. I should've said "my mum passed away " Thanks for your condolences LILS. As one of her friends put it we are saddened for her loss but yet we are relieved

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I read it like you were saying my mum, as well. Was about to type, "EH?!?" because mine died YONKS ago. But, jeeez, I'm so sorry, you poor b*gger. Anything I can do?

Lils, I was going to post tonight but out of respect I'd like to leave this post 'still' until tomorrow, if that's okay with you? The ether equivalent of four minute's silence.

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Well thank you Soulmate now it's time to move on.

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Omg!!!! +0( how did I misread that?! Sorry...And for your loss scope :-(.

Soulmate that's fine :-)

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Lils, I missed the boat tonight (er, last night) but you're first on the list tomorrow. Meanwhile, I'd better climb into my coffin before the sun starts to come up. ;-)

Scopes, it'll be time to move on when it's time to move on. It's not your decision, just because you THINK you feel okay enough. The grieving process insists on being had and it's better to allow it to run its course *during* the event than allow it to remain thus get to act inconveniently - possibly 'highly' - as a flashback period at any point in your future by bursting forth in recommencement without warning and knocking you for six. But if you want or need to do it 'behind your own back' - sleep more. Gorge on sleep as much as you can because (dreams being a peek) that's when your back-room boys do all the reading, working-out and filing away in the appropriate mental cabinets *for* you.

This is a case where you *can* 'get the staff'. :-)

55p, please, less a 100% Loyalty discount.

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Yes Soulmate I've heard about the grieving process and believe me it's not the first time for me. My mother's urn will sit next to my father's and my baby sister's

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Oh. :-(

So you're an orphan like me, then?

I think urns are a lovely idea. Means you can still talk to them...something real to focus on. Plus, you don't need to make a special trip to a grave- or ashes-site, you can prattle away in your own housie.

Are they pretty urns? Where do you keep them - over the mantle?

Wish I had one. My father is a Bourgenvilla tree! (Hi dad!...I see your'e branching out? / 'Leaf' it out, mate?!) (groan...Abbot 'n Costello we were not but - near enough...for us, anyway, LOL.) But it's in Espana. But I'll see him again soon enough. :-) Doesn't stop me from chatting away to him, though (I have a little shrine in the kitchen comprising a funny poem in a gold frame, all about him and what he was like, that I wrote to read at his funeral, 'in the shade of' a beautiful glass Daisy vase containing silk Daisies (those being pertinent)). He hears as well - I have concrete evidence galore. ...unless it's someone/something pretending to be him or letting me just assume it is? Bit like that film starring Jodie Foster - what's it called... (tsk - google)..."Contact". Have you seen it?

PS: Yeah, I know you've heard of it (ha-ha) but when you're in a place where you're unsure which was is up, it can help to have the President of The Bleedin' Obvious Society remind of the bleedin' obvious. ;-)

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Back to you for a mo, Lils...


"I like those new suggestions too! From the poll so far doe ray mee is coming out on top but I'm still waiting to here back.
In the summer hols tom did come round and started to kick a football around with some of the kids, which they really liked if they didn't want to do arty stuff and did turn into a nearly everyday thing . He also thinks we should do a website, not that he knows how to build one but probably knows someone who does. Might be a good idea, just don't want to overadvertise coz we got enough kids coming at the moment but other info could go up on website like holidays and stuff.

Ooooh I see, Well haven't gone out of my way to be nice to leech face, only acknowledge her if I have to. Custard pie ready and waiting if needed Smiling. No sign of her since coming back from holiday, was half expecting her to be waiting outside the house on a the day we got back but she's stayed away... so far...maybe she's gone and got a life!

To be fair to sis, she knows my dad is potentially asperges but I don't think she's understands properly, so ive been enlightening her a bit, now that she's stopped being moody, but only when she feels like listening, think there is other stuff going on at the moment.

Couldn't say no coz I didn't want tom to get bored :-/ and it was quite nice that he was wanting to try everything. Bro was more then happy to go and do something with him if I really didn't want to. Er jelly fish would of won at tennis, think anything could beat me! Tom realised how crap I was and bro took my place quite quickly Crying.

Toms going to uni in the north east, sat nav says 5 hours, I'm not convinced. We have now talked which at first turned into an argument, I knew it would! There was tension building up but neither of us wanted to go there. Tom said that he can't get excited or talk about it much coz me and his mum are going all 'emotional on him' ( so sorry about that *rolls eyes), he really hates clinginess but it's actually more his mum who's getting like this, not me, but I think that's normal for her to be like that. I just don't like how quickly the time is going. He also said that he actually feels quite anxious about it, which apparently I wasn't taking the into consideration, but he didn't tell me and when I pointed out that he choose to go to the furthest one away, he got angry :-/. Anyways was a bit stupid, and we both realised it isn't worth arguing about, and wouldn't be a good start so just got to find ways of making it work and finding nice places to meet up half way is one idea.

I like college, made a few girly friends, which I was seriously lacking in, not on the same course as them though. Like the tutor, he's a bit more calmer then the other one, and like that I got lots of books to read.

The first group session was a bit weird coz our tutor leaves and a mentor person comes in but doesn't say anything or introduce herself, we were told her name beforehand. If you say hello to her she just nods at you, which a few people got really offended by and don't understand why she's even there. This week it was just random talking. I think it get it, I think she is there to observe us, maybe indivially and take mental notes as to how we react to whatever comes up. I'm waiting for it to kick off Smiling."


Yeah. Doe Ray Me [one 'e'] has been growing on me, too. It does say it all. Certainly to anyone musical and/or who's seen Sound of Music and can make the ( connection. Probably 99.99999% of your target market, I imagine. After all, it's not like it doesn't get repeated on BeeB 1 every single bloody Christmas, is it.

I remember on MatchDotCom (yeah, alright - I was bored without the wasband to daily, secretly gnash my teeth at, but didn't want to date, thus t'was the perfect choice, okay?...jeez, gimmie a break! ;-p) one of the set blurb questions was, Name some of your favourite things. Tee-hee - need I say more re. what I chose to put? (I know. Aren't I.)

But, anyway, I digress.

Doe Ray Me.

Should look very striking, colour-reversed against a backdrop of a row of Black & White piano keys as a logo design, eh? Or they could be Yellow letters on B&W - even more striking. And Yellow is a childlike primary (albeit would incur greater present and future colour repro costs as opposed to straight B&W). You could even add a little (B&W) daisy or Eidelweiss on a curved stalk, somewhere...say top left. Unless you have your own visual concept in mind? Pray do tell, "M'colleague"?

If you didn't mind the slightly extra printing cost in favour of colour, and wanted more sophistication, either the flower or the 3-D letter shadowing could be comprised of Gold (mmmwa, dwahling!).

Strapline [female] voiceover suggestion (for future telly advertising): "...Because not everything in life is Black & White". You can reverse-extrapolate from there, I'm sure, regarding the general theme of the ad. If not, however, and I'm rambling, it's this: Sometimes a great mum can't always *be* a great mum, rather than isn't willing or interested in being. Modern life gets in the way of motherhood. But she can if she's clever and knows [1] to delegate and [2] instinctually who/what to delegate *to*. The deeply understanding, female- (and female-position) friendly, guilt-salver angle.

And the entire tune playing in the audio background would be rather jolly, too! Especially as it ends in an upward octave. And in fact, it's a very evocative tune, for obvious, sentimentality reasons.

Also - what a fun and catchy phone greeting: "Doh Ray Me, can I help you?". As for hold music... :-) So that would adjust down the extra repro costs right there.

Yep, very powerful choice, Modom. Now you have check it's available as a company name, either nationally or internationally. And then secure the email addy etc.

Yes, an, for the time being, 'information only' website would be sensible. And then it's ready to turn into a custom catcher once you are. Preparation better than catch-up as well as cure, aye. Does Tom know how to do that kind of techie stuff?

(Pitching in, eh? I say!...Making himself a member of the fam biz right before uni? Relax - you're safe. :-))


Oh, Leena's been staying away, has she? Ah-hah. Pickings *not* so rich, after all. More trouble than it's worth. "Neext sucker!..."

If this proves permanent, I shall, on behalf of the University Of Life, as one of its appointed lecturers (;-)), be able to crown you officially as a great Anti Narcissist. :-) Aka "SuperNova Empath".

Gone and got a life, though? Nah. Someone else's. (Get with the programme, Dylan!) (Don't say 'Dylan who?' or I'll shoot meself)


Blister's stopped being moody? Crikey, that was quick?! Well done, then.

Wonder if that 'other stuff' is her having started to notice boys and one in particulickular?


"Couldn't say no coz I didn't want tom to get bored :-/"

Listen. If he's within 5 miles of you, he ain't bored. Alright? Know thy power, luvvie. But it ain't of the Motherly variety. And anyway, if all else fails there's always building sandcastles for the little darling. ;-p

(Matron...? Newborn baby for the broody young lady in Bed 2, please! And make it snappy. And easily bored.) (:-D)

...or are you trying to tell me Tommy-Wommy-Woo-Woos is hyperactive??

PS: You're already a top biz woman in the making (reading all of that - CLEARLY!). You can't be good at tennis and everything else as well. That would just be greedy.


Of course it's normal. These days anyway (usually a bit too soon to curtain the Mothering and Being Mothered Programmes). So, yeah, your small portion would then prove the tipping point. But as I've just pointed out, he's doing some clinging symptoms of his own ("on me 'ead, son!.......YOR GO-IN 'OME INNAN AM-BER-LANCE").

"He also said that he actually feels quite anxious about it, which apparently I wasn't taking the into consideration, but he didn't tell me "

Well! Tsk! Couldn't you just READ HIS MIND?!!! I mean - you *are* his mother, aren't you? Good grief. Bad mother.

(Would you like to borrow my frying-pan? It's a bit head-shaped you wearing it in.)

"when I pointed out that he choose to go to the furthest one away, he got angry :-/"

Flooded, actually. And then converted that guilt and shame into more (yawn) "manly" emotions, Annoyance and Anger. I FEEL BAD, I DIDN'T FEEL BAD TIL YOU SAID THAT, EQUALS, YOU'RE TO BLAME...AND - LOOK - TWO PLUS TWO IS SIX SO I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. PS: manspeak "I feel quite anxious" = womanspeak "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!".

Eez being thick. So that equals, eez upset A LOT and just not wanting to admit it. Thing is, though, Lils, he needs to ensure he not only can GET a catch like yourself, but also keep her, i.e. bring home lots of bacon until he hits retirement. You've got to be eligible before you'll be eligible. Or you do in this capitalist day and age ("godda have a jayyyy ohhh beee, if you wanna beee wiiith mee").

WHEN did he apply for this uni and what was the climate between the two of you at that point? Also, where else provided the course or curriculum he was after?

Anyway, he's not there yet. Who knows? Maybe he won't be able to take it? (Psst! - he won't! :-) Already he can't!) And - exactly! - nice places to meet up. Trust me, it'll keep your Honeymoon period prolonged considerably, meaning, you could end up with a very thick, very strong foundation. But it's simple: if you're meant to be, this will make you stronger; if you're not, it'll prove your undoing. What a superb test of strength. One your mum and dad could have done with so as to avoid all this recent crud, note.

Also, you're about to have a thriving business to run. Trust me, you and the biz will benefit from that pent-up sexual energy, particularly where creative thinking's concerned (same energy tank). Time will go *very* quickly. He'll miss you more.

All the chess pieces are in timely fashion falling into their correct places, ready for the off. For you and to a slightly lesser extent, Tom, months spent apart will feel like mere weeks. You'll be seeing each other every "two weeks", which will feel enough. It'll be fine.

PS: Girl friends or girlie friends? There is a difference, you know. ;-)


[turn on 8point] You can't say more calmer, soz; it's 'more calm' or 'calmer'. If you mean one notch up from 'calmer', it's 'calmer still'. [turn off 8point and grin, cheesily-placatingly]


Assessing you all. Yes. Well done. :-)

Have you re-read this entire thread yet? You can practically SEE you rising from the ashes-ette and soaring! Go on, give it a read. Let me know if you can see it.

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I liked lil fingers too, but that seems to be already taken so back to doe Rae me coz that won the poll in the end and will make sure that's not already taken! Like those idea for logos too :-), I think I will put that all to sis when the time comes and let her do the designing, she's good at that.

Nope Tom doesn't know how to do the techie stuff (not too gd at that kinda thing) but I'm sure he knows someone who does or he could learn if he wants future job.

Leech face is just calling my mum at the moment to 'check in', my mum also does have a good reason not to take her call everyday coz aunty is staying with us - aunty has been bad! :-| went into hospital for an operation without telling any one, not even bf or sons, she says it 'wasn't a big deal' hmmmmm. Not l the first time she's done this! This time, she got sent home unwell, and ended up going bk in to hospital when bf contacted her after he hadn't heard from her - he then told us. She was (and still is) refusing all help at home which she needs, just too stubborn to admit she needs it. she refused to go stay with bf or for him to stay with her to be looked after, so my dad put his foot down told her to stop being so bl**dy stupid and if she was really going to refuse all help that was being offered then she was staying with us NOT going back home alone which is what she wanted. He loves her really :-D and he got more husband points from my mum.

Good things are aunty gets looked after, coz neither of my cousins have bothered to come see her ...maybe they're p*ssed off with her, but still. Leech face stays away coz she's scared of aunty and it's stopped my mum from bedroom hopping :-).

All good with the parents btw, nothing to report with them.

Sis is still being a bit moody, but not as bad as before. The other stuff is to do with boys, as in, she says she prefers to be friends with them then girls, dunno if she likes any of them. She made friends with some really bitchy girls when she first started secondary school, now doesn't all the arguing so she's distanced her self from them, made friends with some boys and now getting picked on coz of this and plays football with them/being a bit of a tomboy.

Yeah, I think Tom is hyperactive! before I thought he just into lots of different sports but became a lot more obvious on holiday that he didn't stop :-/. Seems to only have one button, which is 'GOooooooo', until he eventually crashes... and everyone else. I should of got him one of those fidget spinners for his birthday!

Tom had to get three B's or more at A level for him to do the course at this particular uni, which he did, not too sure why it was this one he wanted to go to. The other two unis which were closer did similar courses. There was a bit of tension building up between us with this, a few months before. I was trying to talk to him about it coz I was worrying, wanting to know how it was going to work, he was telling me I was worrying too much but wouldn't enter a conversation about it or give reassurance.
He's been at uni for a week and a half now, which has gone quite quick but don't quite know what I did before him been bored! :-/ He quite happily jumped in his car and I was the one crying partly coz dunno when I'm next seeing him. I know he's adjusting (and I am too) to but would be nice to hear from him when he's not drunk...tried to talk to him on skype and he was like 'Lills! I loveeeee yoooouuu babyblurbluuuuurrrr *muttered some other stuff, and then feel asleep* zzzz' :-| .. ugh, will try again *rolls eyes*.

Yeah I have been doing som reading back, and can see a difference, not just in sorting parents out but I think I would of ended up going to uni and doing a course, probably studying English, which is I really what I didn't want to do with not much of idea of what kind of job o wanted to do after and I wouldn't of started biz :-).

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Hey, what were you doing up past 2am OR ANY A.M., young lady??? [glarey, slitty eyeballs and bared bottom teeth] Do you want your still developing super-brain to turn its final programme flourishes to mush and you back to where you'll be as mediocre as muck during this final lap, izzzz THA' WHATCHOO WANT? (CUZ THASS WHADDLE APPEN!)

Seriously - you do realise your brain only grows and re-calibrates/self-enhances at night during sleep, right? You're a biological computer (except real puters are as powerful as only one grain of sand in the Sahara versus *all* the grains *and then some* representing the human version). I mean, what did you think the concept of computers was instinctually based on - carrots and cow-pats? :-p

I'll let you off just this once... Next time it'll be a FIVE-PAGE lecture (you haff been varned).


Your dad (and mum) is clearly highly grateful to your auntie, as well as likes her anyway. Unsurprisingly.


I've been humming Doe Ray Me non-stop, lately! Thass your fault thadiz. :-p If I start running and singing down the nearest grassy hill, wearing a pinafore, I shall be contacting my solicitor, Reverend Mother.


So what you mean IS... Leechface is doing what she says on the tin and trying to call your mum every single day, yes? And Auntie's illness and being a full-time guest is preventing it. Is that Fate or is that your dad being exceedingly under-the-table clever? (Both, probably.)

Let's rename her Velcro. Or Locktite. Or URGH, GERROFF! (Ug for short). Or Chewing-Gum? And how's about a logo and a jingle to go with it?


Re your cousins: "But still", indeed! Selfish little beeps (rhymes-with-bricks).

"All good with the parents btw, nothing to report with them."

Are you after me posting the Silent Monks vid again, is that what you're after? ;-D Well, tough - I'm not that predictable:

It's equally as pertinent, anyway. And - you see? If you'd paid ATTENTION at nursery when Itsby Bitsy got sung, you'd never have posted 'help, me bleedin' idiot parents are divorcin!' in the first place! ;-p

What a coinkydinky: parents settle down, BLISTER settles down! (She's the emotionally super-sensitive one - warning-warning, always handle with care!)

WHO is picking on her? The bitchy girls? Why - because she dared reject them rather than become their No. 1 fan (how very dare she, hhHHH!)? RSvP.


I've heard of fidget-spinners. What are they, pray tell, Ms Google? (It's 4.14, can't be a*sed.)


Oh, he's not another one going to bloody "Newcassle", is he? There's a rumour going around that it's got the best student social calendar (...HangoverfromHellday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Pukeday, Barfday, Ralfday...). Probably, all his friends "and all the cool lads" are going there.

I pity the girls.

(Oh - GONE there. Course - forgot the date.)

He did *not* drive off happily, he gave an award-winning performance of a "not big-girl-blousie cuz I'm a man now"! as he drove off, *aided* by the excitement of this Great Adventure. Diff/all the diff. (Charicature Man, da-da-da-daddle-ah-daaah!-yawn) Give him time...

"ugh, will try again *rolls eyes*."

No, you won't. You'll act like the dignified, self-respecting member of the royal lineage THAT YOU ARE, whom is not amuuuused and doth not ever (air!) chase after young suitors ( many men, so little time) because there is no need when young suitors are queuing up for miles, HRH Rapunzel-who-ought-know-her-wortheth but hasn't been noticingeth all the looks while her eyes have been constantly on Master Tom's thus the invisible, Green ("free") light above her head has been reading Very Red ("engaged"). Yet. :-p

Young men like *Challenge* and The Chase. He's getting drunk on Novelty Factor, having only just arrived - this to see, that to see, dart here, now there, now back again!...EVERYTHING novel. That only explains it, not excuses it, granted. But - 'start as you mean to go on' - if he constantly knows you'll play Clock-Watcher and Contact Initiator as well as constantly what *you're* up to ("nothing much, [bored, missing you]") he'll feel freed of Guarding M'Girlfriend duty and *will* live it up while forgetting you temporarily (cos you'll do the remembering FOR him - see how that works?).

You made a call. His turn now. (Particularly as he 'wasted' it.) And the next. Then you. Then him, then him. 70-30, overall, roughly. Because, in addition to Hunter-Chaser being his role, now that you're artificially re-entering Honeymoon, he was the one chose to introduce the phone into your relationship. So HE can carry it, with merely just enough encouragement and help from you. Capiche? So the best way to get a bf to ring is by you not ringing - particularly if that represents a pattern-breakage. He won't feel much like partying if he's starting to notice then wonder then worry then whittle why *you* haven't called *him, either*. "Hhh! Who's she with, what's she doing, is some bloke moving in my bird?!..."

You'll adapt and fill in the temporary gap soon enough. You just don't have his kind of novelty dust with which to distract yourself from your pain of separation. Yet.


Yup. :-)

How's the biz doing anyway? Now that the older kids are back at school, are you taking pre-schoolers?

PS: When I said 'bottom teeth', that's without a hyphen, just wanna make that clear. My bottom in fact has FANGS. And here they are: If you needlessly add tiredness to yearning, you're going to end up MISERABLE which, even if you try to hide it, will get communicated subliminally via your whole voice (tone, rate and pattern of speech, etc.) and present as a huge, deflationary contrast to the novelty fun-fun-fun he's currently, initially gorging on and render you coming over as a downer. IZ THA' WOT YOU WAN'? (CUZ...) When he next rings, you need to sound chirpy and like you're busy-busy-busy and enjoying yourself, it's far more important, even, than what you reply with when he says 'Whatcha been up to then?'. Wait for HIM to initiate the 'I miss yous', whereupon you mirror/reciprocate.

But remember, this is your chance to enjoy the single life, every term time. Best of both worlds - legitimate version! That makes you very privileged. :-)

Parents split up

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(Thought *I* was bad, lol.)

Parents split up

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No comment

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(LOL - oy, wotchit, you.)

Well, then, IT'S JOKE-AROUND TIME! Let's mess up Lily's nice, neat thread. :-D

A contractor told me this and (goddamnit!) I couldn't help meself, laughed like a drain:

"A bird shat on my car bonnet last night!"
(Oh?, I said in all seriousness)
"Yeah. Ain't takin' HER out again!"


(Shoot me, shoot me now...)


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Noooo not my neat thread !!! :-p

Ah I was watching films with aunty that night :-). She's not been herself recently :-( very tearful, and not her normal self, she says it's because she's not coping with symptoms that's she's getting but I also think it's to do still no visit from either cousins, not even a phone call. well the older cousin sent his heavily pregnant wife, who is really nice but she obviously wanted them all together. Not seen much of bf I think she's pushed him away a bit :-/.

Yep, think it's a bit of both leach face is slowly stopping the phone calls now. I think my dad was being secretly clever, and I think he does really appreciate what's aunty has done, coz he's looking after her really well and going with her to any hospital appointments. No more sneaky ops for her! think he's also close to giving cousins a kick up the a*se, and make then realise what aunty is going through, that will be fun :-)

Yep it's the bitchy girls who are picking on sis, apparently they keep calling her boys names that begin with the first letter of her name and making stupid comments like telling sis to get her hair cut like a boy. Sis has actually been quite proactive and joined a drama club and says shes completely ignoring them .

Fidget spinners are for people with ADHD (don't think tom is quite that bad) it's a thing that you spin between you fingers and can do tricks with. They became a bit of a craze but got banned in most schools coz they're too distracting.

Tom goes to Durham uni so close to Newcastle! Rethought about what I wrote about calling him again and I didn't called bk, and what you said made sense! instead I waited...and waited ...and waited, until eventually (can't remember how many days later it was) he called, sounding hung over but I guess that's better then having him drunk then falling asleep! Was a little p*ssed off but I think I hid it. Anyways he's surprised me by coming back for my birthday so he's back in the good books :-).

It is still going well, still doing some lessons after college but not everyday now. Also gave in and said yes to some baby sitting at weekends to one mum coz it's loadza money and her kids are very well behaved. website is starting to be talked about if got mentioned to toms brothers bf who it an IT expert and he's very willing to meet and help hen time is right :-)

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It is very neat, isn't it? :-) Nah, wouldn't do that, was only teasing, I "hhhhhhhhhhhATE!" messy threads. Hate messy anything, actually...t'is a sign to self of a however much disorganised/over-run or disordered mind, doncha know. Plus Scopesie wasn't playing ball, anyway, look ("boooo...hiiiiss" lol).

Uh-oh. WHAT symptoms?

Your parents' troubles might have served as a catalyst to Auntie's own baggage starting to spill out. Like I think I mentioned up there, she might have been sharpening her teeth on your parents' (the likely-to-forgive ones) situation, ready for this -what you're now seeing- inevitable showdown and stand-off with her taking-liberties sons. Question is, has she tried to contact *them* prior to now sitting back, waiting for them to do so? Or would her contacting them somehow represent an insult to justice?

How many months has it been with 'new' boyfriend? Enough that he might have started reminding her of whatever problematic element(s) from her past as had her self-sequestering for so long - do you think?

Going with her to hospital appointments? Isn't that mum's privilege and prerogative? I agree with the (ahem) calm stepping in as a male, disciplinary role model, though, since they're devoid. Maybe advise Auntie that if she's tried everything already, long before now, to just sit and grit her teeth because if her sons are (which they sounded) narcissistic (note 'ic', not Narcissistic Personality Disordered, first is normal self-interest magnified, particularly at their stage of delayed emotional development, but still within normal range) then no amount of words or lectures will work to convince them to play ball like normal decent people, only being SHOWN (actions-actions-actions!).

Am in awe of how well *and* how correctly your sister's handling it all. Seriously. Her dignity and self-control are amazing for her age! I presume she's confiding and talking over how she feels about it all to you as well, yes?

Oh, those things! We 'ran with scissors' back in my day so our craze was Clackers. Which were quite quickly banned. And then conkers followed the same fate. If you google you'll see why.

"can't remember how many days later it was"

Bet it was 2 (including the one you'd already waited). Am I right?

" Anyways he's surprised me by coming back for my birthday so he's back in the good books"

There you go. :-)

Try to remember how many days, it'll come in handy.

HAPPY BUFFDAY!, by the way.

Glad to hear the biz ebbs and flows with your own ebb and flow, that is mighty handy. And, like I say, once you leave further ed., it's there to take to full-time if you want and need to, ta-daa!

You are now officially a young Entrepreneur. :-) See how easy it actually is?

Have you done the Doe Ray Me logo and added it to the website yet? Or is that where Tom's bro comes in?

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Just noticed It’s been over a year since first posted.

Don’t like anything messy either, it hurts my brain!

Symptoms with aunty are tiredness, dizziness, low blood pressure and palpitations, been going on for weeks and she’s not really strong enough to be out of bed for long so she’s bored and she’s frustrated coz she’s normally very independent. Doctors are not too sure if the op she had, has affected her Parkinson’s or if it’s something else ...its complicated, which is why my dad is going with her to hospital appointments, my mum hates hospitals :-/.

Aunty had been trying to contact cousins but the only person who was responding was older cousins wife. My dad had asked to meet up with cousins, so he could explain to them exactly what was going on with aunty, both agreed to older cousin did but younger cousin didn’t bother turning up, not like he had to travel far coz my dad drove to see them! Aunty is now agreeing to more help and is thinking about moving closer to us :-) (this was her idea). Ugh I knew there was narcissistic traits with them, mainly younger cousin!

She was With bf at the beginning of the year, although could of been longer she kept it quiet for a while, but yeah I think long enough for him to remind her of her past. Still haven’t seen him for a good few weeks, not sure what’s going on there :-/.

leech face is slowly finding a way back in, my Mum has gone out with her a couple of times at least she’s not coming round so I don’t have to see her.

Yeah quite proud of Sis :-D (have told her that too) and clearly she takes after moi! No, at her age I don’t think I would of thought to do what she has done, I would of just worried about it . she seems to be coping well school but theses girl don’t seem to want to leave her alone yet and its all coming out at home. she does telll me or my mum about what theses girls are saying/calling her and how pathetic they are being. I do keep telling her she is doing the right thing and to keep doing what’s she’s doing.

I think I waited three days for tom to call me back, it felt a lot longer but he’s got better. I’ve been to see him now too, coz it was half term, so that’s twice in one month which isn’t too bad, it’s just the leaving bit I hate.
There is a girl at his uni who seemed to be permanently by his side and didn’t seem to want to bugger off at certain times when she should of done. Seriously, she knocked on the door at 8.30 one morning when I was there and asked if he wanted to go to the gym?! Tom had mentioned her a couple of times on the phone, I assumed she was a boy coz her name could be for a girl or boy. I trust him, mainly coz he keeps reassuring there is no interest on his behalf (without me questioning him) they are friends but she’s too interested :-|. Just had to get that bit off my chest!

Yeah it is easy and I thought it would be hard to start up and run a biz. Have got sis to design some logos and will then see if toms bro can copy it on website, once it’s up and running but do it think that will be for a while yet.

Parents split up

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Aim to post tomorrow or Sun latest, bear with a bit longer...

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"Just noticed It’s been over a year since first posted."

Yup! :-) Was waiting to see if you noticed.

You know what that means, don't you?...

LENA!" [poetic license]


Hurts my brain, too. Well, annoys it. Got enough going on in there without the distraction of chaos going on on the outside.


Hypotension, eh? Is Auntie having a delayed reaction to all the recent stress, now that it's safe to, do you think (intuitively, I mean)?

Agree about younger cuz, but it may be that he doesn't understand what influences got in the way of his relationship with his mum and is putting all the blame onto her because it's easier (and less risky) and because she's the only one accessible? Time and greater life experience will educate him, always does. Meanwhile, she'll just have to try to grin and bear it and make that allowance in the belief that the relationship won't stay like that, that it's just an interruption, not a permanent state of affairs. But, yes, that failure to turn up despite the gravity of situation at hand does represent a mighty big dollop of built-up (valid or not) resentment on his part. Frankly, were he not her flesh and blood that would be a Dealbreaker.

"She was With bf at the beginning of the year, although could of been longer she kept it quiet for a while, but yeah I think long enough for him to remind her of her past. Still haven’t seen him for a good few weeks, not sure what’s going on there :-/."

Oh. There it is, that's why. What is it they say? "The only thing that doesn't decompose when you bury it is pain". Your mum and dad's situation agitated all the crud and question-marks back up to the surface. Well, them and her new boyfriend. Oh, and yes you do know what's going on: she's not seeing him. Hence neither are you. Whether that's because he's a negative element per se or just an inadvertent, innocent agitator - that's the part we don't know (yet). But I would have thought that were the latter the case, it wouldn't be rocket science to then pose as a comforter/antidote, whereby still seeing him overall paid off and did more good than harm, wouldn't you?

"leech face is slowly finding a way back in, my Mum has gone out with her a couple of times at least she’s not coming round so I don’t have to see her."

QUE? SERIOUSLY? Why on earth would she still be fraternising with the very woman who was busting a gut to get her single?

Don't get it. Unless.... Is she using her as a study tool?

Why haven't you asked her? Or have you?


It's great that lil blister's handling it like an adult pro and that she's got you to morally support and encourage her,'re not at school with her when it's actually happening so - what's the school doing about the fact she's being bullied (or should I say attempted-bullied) (no, actually, if you're even having to fend it off it's still Abuse)?

What has your mum said about it and what she, if anything, intends to do about it? Or is sis insisting [scuse pun] she be allowed to handle it by herself?


Only 3 days. GOOD. Correct reactivity on his part, that's what I thought.

And yes, ref the wrench, I know. Still, it does make you stronger while waiting to get used to it.

"There is a girl at his uni who seemed to be permanently by his side and didn’t seem to want to bugger off at certain times when she should of done. Seriously, she knocked on the door at 8.30 one morning when I was there and asked if he wanted to go to the gym?! Tom had mentioned her a couple of times on the phone, I assumed she was a boy coz her name could be for a girl or boy. I trust him, mainly coz he keeps reassuring there is no interest on his behalf (without me questioning him) they are friends but she’s too interested Speechless. Just had to get that bit off my chest!"

She can be as interested as she likes but it takes his 50% for anything to come of it. However, the way she's behaving is indicative of her character. So that's over before it's started. Basically, she's subtly CHASING him. Picture gazelle walking up to lion on a plate. YAAAAWN. So LET her put him off her.

I've got his number, though. Think about it, how hard is it to politely say GO AWAY. It's not. So what Tom's doing - by 'showing' her to you - is demonstrating his own insecurity and worry about whether you might wander off or replace him. By introducing the element of jealousy or competition, your love will have that extra augmenter attached and add to its weight. See what I'm saying? Basically, if you were, secretly, going off him or the effort involved in seeing him, YOU WON'T NOW. "Treat her (slightly) mean to keep her keen" is the saying. Standard male insecurity insurance tactic, he does not fancy her or anything like that, she's just useful right now to keep you from going off him or daring to dump him. Worry not. Plus, if there was anything in it from his side, in regards to genuine interest, I mean, then he would have hidden her, not slightly, subtly flaunted her. See the diff? Case closed. She's just his Lynx-on-legs for your benefit.


Wish I could see the final logo, but you'll just have to describe it to me (no posting any web link on here, warning-warning).


PS: Why does your mam hate hospitals?

Parents split up

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December next year Soulmate?

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Ah, well. It's entirely up to Lils, isn't it.

Wondered where you'd got to. Any juicy gossip?

Talking of 'juicy' (but not in a good way), have you read that new thread about that poor woman who's already 'officially' depressed, enough to be on 20mg instead of the usual 10 of Citalopram, but being basically beaten up on what sounds like a daily basis by her so-called husband and so-called father of her children? Bullying your own wife when she's already in trouble. I was disgusted....takes a lot to disgust and shock me. Think it showed [sarcasm alert]. Go take a ganders. And then you can be disgusted too! ( humour, couldn't help it)

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If I’ve done a year I reckon I can do two :-p

I read that new thread too, ugh

Aunty is slowly getting back to her normal self, which is nice to see but I think she is pretty stressed out and everything is catching up with her. Was out with her yesterday and we had to stop and sit in the car for a bit coz she was feeling panicky but she won’t admit she’s getting panick attacks which I think she is getting.

she says she’s not going to approach sons until there is some sort of effort from them and until she has some energy, good luck to them when she does find her fiesty self again! Think older cousins wife is also quite capable of putting them both in their place.

She’s not seeing bf anymore, I think he annoyed her but also in the past when she does get ill or has to have an op, if she’s seeing someone she gets rid of them because she says she doesn’t want anyone to have to look after her (other then family).

I know, I’m annoyed with my mum about leech face, there’s a liiiiiittle bit of tension between us at the moment and aunty Been giving her a bit of a hard time about it too. it’s because my mum feels sorry for her because she doesn’t have a lot of friends or family (can’t think why!). Next she’ll be inviting her round for Xmas. She also annoyed me coz holly dropped round a bday card (with a very long and boring letter inside, where she basically made herself out to be the victim, if she wants a reply she ain’t getting one!) round for me a couple of weeks ago, I wasn’t in and my invited her in and they had a ‘nice chat’ and talked about why holly and I are not friends anymore and since my mum has been going on at me to make contact with her but won’t really listen as to my reasons why. I did try a bit with holly a while coz we go to the same college, kept bumping into each other, she’s not she’s not changed one bit and there is still this weird jealousy with me and tom, all she was interested in was what uni he’s gone to and how was it going to work? so I didn’t bother after that! Don’t really understand why my mum ignores people’s bad behaviour.

Well at first sis didn’t my mum to interfere with theses girls, think she thought she could handle them but she’s now coming home upset nearly every day now, so my Mum is doing something about it which is talks with head of year and headteacher. Will see what the outcome of that is.

Ah ok, that makes sense with tom, yeah he would he hiding her, but I don think he’s really like that, he’s too open and honest. It was the long drive home, where I spent the whole five hours questioning things and nothing was distracting me. I thinks he’s found someone who is just as hyperactive as he is, girl version.

Sis has done five different logo designs :-/ told her to just do two different ones, think she’s done more, so I pay her more (not silly). Will discribe my fave one when she’s finshed them.

My mum hates hospital coz I think it go’s back to when my grandparents were ill (both died) and she had quite a traumatic time with them both ended up in ICU and she’s now come quite fearful of hospitals :-/.

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LILS I'm gonna have agree with your mum about hospitals. I don't exactly have any fond memories there either. Glad to hear aunty is getting back to her normal self.

Soulmate about the only juicy gossip I have is I'm buying a hill. Currently in escrow will close on December 8th lots and lots of signatures whew!

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"If I’ve done a year I reckon I can do two :-p"

You make it sound like Doing Life at a maximum security institution, LOL - 'It's alright...I'm tough...I'll make it..'.


Yeah. 'Ugh'. That's about the size of it, isn't it.


Since he's a doctor, is your dad recommending any traditional or Alternative medical measures to your auntie? And could she be experiencing Adrenal Exhaustion from all the stress, both of these recent bouts and anything they brought up to the surface from her past?

Also, do you suppose that the truth is more that, whenever Auntie realises she's entering a period ill health, she rids herself of any romantic partner she can tell is going to be a drain on her, rather than an assistance and source of support? ...And reverts to putting herself in the care of those whom she *does* trust?


Hmm... Your mum... Don't ask me why but I don't buy that 'feel sorry for her' line. I suspect it's a cover for 'I want to study her (now that I've got her at a safe distance)'. Do you know what I'm sensing and saying?

Holly: victim of WHAT? (You sound angry, still, btw.) And what are your reasons? Did something definite happen or was it more a case 'one more drip and the negative bucket will overflow'? By what you've said she said, she certainly does sound like she's intent on putting a downer on yours and Tom's situations - I agree.

Your mum's an intrinsically good person who likes to see the good in people and believe they're all just like her, and would rather not entertain the fact that there are actually monsters out there. So it's like she's saying, 'Please don't file them as Monster, not yet, maybe all it'll take is one more chance to prove they're just this or just that or-or-or? Anything but a Monster (to any degree).' Plus, Holly probably made like Perry: Hello Mrs Patterson, how you, Mrs Patterson, Fank-You Mrs Patterson [halo]... Which won't have helped.

Nag-nag-nag, eh?

"Don’t really understand why my mum ignores people’s bad behaviour."

Why don't you try ignoring hers? ;-) could be a bit cheeky and quip: "Eyes, ears, mouth... Husband." After all, it's true isn't it? So what's she even doing, trying to involve herself in your private relationships? (Answer: trying to make up for lost time. Guard your cheek or you might find a tissue moving around on it. Covered in spit. LOL.)

Nah. Go easy on her, don't RIP that invisible umbilicus off her or it'll be too painful. Also, let's not forget that she had to forego a lot of that last-chance mothering due to her career and then dad. Because you can bet your a*se that bust-up was no 'start of something'. More like something coming to a head.

Maybe ask her to show you how to cook some of her 'famous' recipes or something so that you can replicate them once you get your own place? That way she'll be getting her catch-up fill in a way you *do* like and appreciate, but not in the ways you don't. And you get to forevermore eat your favourite family dishes. Plan?

PS: Keep us posted re lil sis (- see what I did there :-D).

"Ah ok, that makes sense with tom, yeah he would he hiding her, but I don think he’s really like that, he’s too open and honest."

Oh, yeah, he wouldn't cheat. But he's like dad, isn't he. ...No harm in letting a GIRL try to make you sit up and show your cards, eh. Just...if she wants to do that, you know,... *I* can't stop her, *I* don't control her and I *certainly* don't encourage her, know - it's up to *her* what she does or doesn't or if she gets funny ideas, isn't it? [Etc.] But, you know...if she's *bothering* you or something?, orrrr... making you feel *threatened*, a bit, you know?...understandable?...I don't mind telling her to back off a bit? ...Because, you know, thinking aboud did seem a bit....mmmm... for want of a better word - *fixated* in the car going home, so...?


Yes. I imagine he found that journey *highly* reassuring. Probably also didn't mind answering all those questions *at all*, I imagine? ;-)

Never mind, he knows now. On both counts (lol).

(You 'nana.)

Still, if all he was after was confirmation/reassurance then that's as far as the subtle little covert mission should go, and no harm done. Just don't give him *too* much, i.e. don't take the bait the next time (if there's a next time, which I doubt) (now).

PS: He drove you 5 whole hours home? And then 5 whole hours back again? Cor, he's a bit keen, isn't he? ;-D


New mantra: If I spend time in Tom's company and Tom's doing something that makes me feel suspicious or iffy or insecure or anything it's because Tom's feeling suspicious or iffy or insecure or anything.

"My mum hates hospital coz I think it go’s back to when my grandparents were ill (both died) and she had quite a traumatic time with them both ended up in ICU and she’s now come quite fearful of hospitals :-/."

Did she get counselling for that trauma?

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My dads signed aunty up as a temp patient at his surgery so he can keep an eye on her, she sees one of the other partners, who have changed her meds, which seems to be working :-). She came out with me and my mum the other night, so getting aunty back, slowly. Also we went into an estate agent coz she’s serious about moving closer. Looked up Adrenal exhaustion with her, and she agrees she’s experiencing this.

I feel quite relieved, (mainly for aunty) older cousin is coming to visit this weekend (thanks to his wife), aunty is quite excited, Im hoping she’ll give him a hard time too, and my dad is on younger cousins case trying to sort him out keep him updated.

Ah yeah, that sounds more like it with aunty and past partners, I think she does want to be round more family and people she trusts and sneaking into hospital for an operation without telling anyone is quite a good way to get my parents attention (and mine).

When you say my mum is poss using leech face as a study tool, what does that mean? That she’s analysing her in some way? Trying to work her out for herself. Then she will finally realise what she’s actually been up to?

Holly- yeah, I am still angry, a bit that she came round and acted all sweet and innorcent with my Mum coz she knew my mum would fool for her little act and then give me a hard time about it.
The letter really topped it off (7 A4 pages long front and back!). Letter starts off with when she was dating a guy at the beginning of our last year at school (this is where she felt things went wrong between us), she really loved him but he was making it really obvious he wasn’t interested anymore and was making loads of excuses not to see her after school and at weekends. Meg’s and I tried to tell her but she got defensive each time, didn’t want to accept it was over. Also was around the same time tom and I got together so that sparked the jealousy. tom in the end, told ex bf (they were friends) he was being unfair and he should tell Holly if he wasn’t interestsd anymore and not string her along...and so ex bf dumped her a day or two after. Holly knows tom talked to ex bf and she partly blames him for their break up and that he shouldn’t of said anything - that’s her beef with him. she then wrote about how she’s never really got over this guy and she was really upset - I wasn’t there for her. Then apparentlyI changed - ditched her a few times and had no time for her - not true coz that’s when we started the girls night out to the pub every other Friday coz she was getting really jealous and making me feel guilty for seeing tom and we also had that (quiet) argument in a cafe :-/ - as you do - she was the one who told me to F off?! Remember? she then ended up making new friends who she ended up having nothing in common with, so she had a very lonely summer where she became quite depressed.
she was pleased we ended up at the same college and hoped we could be friends again but then I went weird on her doesn’t understand why. Then she went on how about she really misses me and Meg's hope that one day we can try again. The End.

What really annoyed me is that not once in the letter did she acknowledge that my mum and Dad had split up, she’s always claimed how much she loves them and how they are like her second parents OR what she might of done wrong. She made a lot of assumptions/demands and let herself get jealous. I have actually drafted a reply, not going to give it to her coz its an angry reply, I would have to reword a lot of it and remove a few swear words :-/ partly did it so I could stop thinking about it.

I did ask my mum to stop nagging me about it and she has but this after she refused to read the letter from Holly coz she thought it was silly and that I should just forget about it, which felt unfair co she made time to listen to Holly but not me. I’ve just left it now and we did go out to the cinema the other night. Hmmm cooking ...not my strong point! Good idea though coz I need to learn - tom gave up on teaching me a long time ago :-(, after I kept burning quite a few things...I think my mum will be more patient.

I did remind myself when I was having a moment that tom wouldn’t of driven a total of ten hours if there was something going on with him and this girl. Yeah agree he is like my dad in that respect, and I get that he’s insecure coz he said he was anxious about going to uni and being far away in the first place.
Him turning up on my birthday was my favourite present (obvs) :-D . he called my mobile at 7 (left at 2?!!) in the morning and then he had to convince me that he was standing outside the house coz he didn’t want to ring the door bell and wake everyone up. I didn’t believe him /couldn’t be arsed to get out of bed and look out he window but then the dog started barking madly, dog loves tom (...and his socks... don't ask...strange dog) which convinced me enough to get out of bed and he was there :-).

No, I don’t think my mum has had any counselling when grandparents died and both went within a year of each other and not like really old both just had heart problems, had heart attacks and ended up in ICU . So she had to do it twice and aunty in those two years was living even further away and divorcing husband who had left, so she wasn’t exactly with it.

I will wait my long lecture on how my brain is going to explode for staying past midnight ...again :-) bye

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"My dads signed aunty up as a temp patient at his surgery so he can keep an eye on her"..."and my dad is on younger cousins case trying to sort him out keep him updated"

Oh, that's nice. :-) That's the sort of nice that needs a soundtrack. In fact, that's John-Boy Walton nice, I'd go as far as to say.

Me, I'm wondering whether the tipping-point stressor indeed was just her son(s) or whether she suddenly realised boyfriend was a bad'un. That would explain the timing of her mentioning her seriousness about moving closer by. And I must admit - don't know about you, but... that bit you mentioned about him touching her arm as if to rein her in, it did get my was so damn patronising it was too hard to miss *and smacked so much of [wait for it] OWNERSHIP AND ENTITLEMENT* that, had it been me, I'd have said, 'I'm touched at your nurturing concern (or rather, my arm is), but - where on your C.V. does it say Circus Trainer where on mine does it say Seal?'. Or Catherine Tate's Nanna: Uh-HEUGH!...whadda fa*kin liberty!

(...unless we're talking famous 80s singer, Seal... I can do a few bars of Crazy, if anyone likes, LOL/groan. If not, it's Viola Wills - "Goddalonng withoutcha...befooore I metcha-gonna geddalong withoutcha now". (I think those lyrics are far more powerful than I Will Survive because they mention the all-important reminder that you DID get along without him/her before you met him/her, which disempowers grief's intensity a little. Or, if you're with them, *not* to let them take over your fundamental rights of self-ownership and -control like that. But, anyway, I digress...)

"That she’s analysing her in some way? Trying to work her out for herself. Then she will finally realise what she’s actually been up to?"

Yup, you got it. Your mum's a studious, curious type, isn't she. That or Lena is a case of a "re-visit" (someone from the past)? But there is still the office relations aspect, too, meaning it would be about management and weaning-off. Time will tell.

But if it's true she needs "a project" then your only hope, you three (or 4 if you include dad), is to keep her mothering and nurturing instincts busy-busy-busy, too busy for Big Baby Lena. That and her involving herself in your dispute with Holly is why I suggested asking her to show you how to cook her recipes (take the fork *away* from naughty toddler with grabbie hands that are into everything, by simultaneously introducing rattle or other, more fascinating object, LOL).

Seven A4 pages? Woah.

"Holly knows tom talked to ex bf and she partly blames him for their break up and that he shouldn’t of said anything - that’s her beef with him."

That's just silly. If her ex had told Tom to lay off you, Tom would probably have said something ending with Off, which is because he *is* properly into you. But, actually, I do get where Holly's coming from: it should have been *her* prerogative over when she felt ready to accept that truth. But I also can see that Tom was trying to help because it's not nice to see a friend being emotionally tortured. There again, if it was Tom's friend, he did have the right to give his mate his feedback. Etc.

I think she's trying to engineer a situation where you two have to approach her and spend time with her, out of this 'sense of obligation', the overall message being, I'm lonely and it's party you two's fault. So it's just a cry of loneliness, then, isn't it, but where at first she can't say what she needs humbly (avoiding sounding vulnerable and needy). But then does (well, bravo for that, at least, yes?).

However, I agree that if she didn't make important reference (now allowance at the time, look!) to what you and your whole family had been going through, that is definitely a case of Me-Me-Me. So I appreciate your feelings on the matter.

So what you're saying is, you no longer want to be buds but haven't managed to get that across using subtlety? I think if you really meant it or were *ready* to mean it, you'd not feel saying so, even in a letter, was such a struggle. Fair point?

Maybe mum *didn't* make time to listen to Holly, maybe Holly forced herself on her?

And/or maybe your mum feels guilty at the thought of her and your dad having 'ruined' one of your friendships so is trying to minimise the strength and validity of the bases for your fall-out and "you're the stronger one", hence you should be the one to proffer the Olive branch and all that?...meaning, whatever it takes to get it off her conscience and who cares who does it, just do it?...because it's better than there being this conflict in the air? Not that I condone that passing of the buck when Holly's being very self-obsessed as well as did tell you to eff off, but - just to help you see all sides towards making up your mind what you want to do...whether you do want to respond in kind and therein explain your side?

Draft it here if you like? Or run the final draft past us? I'll "be Holly". (And Scopes can help if he's not actually fallen down a manhole?)

If you acknowledge and sympathise with her points wherever warranted but lay out yours, too, as explanation or by way of apology THAT SHE WAS FEELING BAD and that you *couldn't*, rather than wouldn't, help with that, and she *still* doesn't concede over the fact that you were going through a life crisis that had the potential to be huge (meaning, all you wanted was what anyone in that situation wants, which is, your grown-up teddy bear - Tom), and didn't expect anyone to hold that overloaded-ness against you at a later date but instead make allowances for you,'ll know she's all Me-Me-Me-Sod-You rather than just not very plugged-in (or not plug-in-able). So a letter's a great idea...makes for a superb, giant litmus test.

Why *did* you go weird on her, btw?


Re Tom: good, I'm glad that giant, indisputable action didn't escape you.

Left at 2am as well? Crikey, someone book the vicar! (joke) (or is it?)


Back to mum (return noted ;-)). Do you suppose she's thinking *she* might have an early heart-attack?

Christ - Auntie was having to deal with that AND her marriage breaking down then ending? Good grief! Who carried them, then - dad?

Maybe both sisters should go together, jointly? I think they should, you know. They're both in it together, anyway, right?


Nah, can't be a*sed, LOL. Won't explode, anyway ("god, you're AALWAAYS SO OVER-DRAMATIC!" :-D). You just won't be as special as you would have been, otherwise. Plus you'll get zits. :-p

Never mind - Tom can squeeze them ("Mmm, sexy...").

(He probably would, 'n all, ROFL!!)

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My dad seems to be very happy at the moment, a lot less grumpy and he is doing more thoughtful things towards everyone, mainly my mum.

Aunty gave cousin such an earful when she saw him :-D, hehe. At first she was pleased to see him but it was kinda like the more they spoke, the more angry she got with him, I think only then she relised just how p*ssed off she was with both cousins. Didn’t help that he was giving her really crap excuses as to why he didn’t come to visit her in hospital and then when he said he and younger cousin were not happy that she was considering moving closer to us.

I kinda felt auntys ex bf was quite fake and didn’t mean half he stuff he said and did. They also had completely different personalities he was quite quiet and reserved and aunty isn’t ! The arm touching thing I thought at first was him nice but the more I thought about the more it didnt feel right. She doesn’t think she will but hopefully she’ll meet someone new!

Yeah my mum is the studious type and I’m wondering how long she has actually been studying leech face for.

We have done some baking over the weekend :-) i helped her bake sis’s birthday cake, and next is cooking. Think she needed it coz she was like ‘my youngest baby is now a teenager’. She didn’t cope very well with sis getting older :-/.

Going to keep trying but I’m struggling with this letter to Holly. ( my angry version isn’t very good, I reread it) I’m normally quite good at writing and getting my point across but it’s not coming easy coz she’s involved tom and Megan in the letter and they are both not around. I don’t know if I want to be friends again, coz We have out grown each other and don’t have a lot in common’s just putting that in writing to her.

I do sort of see her point of view with tom and the ex bf, but i remember at the time it was so bl**dy obvious that ex didn’t like her, it was hard to watch and he let it go on and on for weeks. Knowing Tom he probably said it in a very matter fact way, don’t think there was a deep and meaningful conversation. Don’t think I’m going to bring it up with him.

I don’t think this situation was the start of our friend breaking down, I think it was the start of her jealousy and how she’s. let it continued for over a year.

I went weird on her coz she questioned about tom being at uni and I said nicely I didn’t want to talk about it. Was a bit of a hard topic, he had just left so was feeling quite emotional about it and she carried on! Couldn’t really see how we could restart our friendship if there was still jealousy and if she couldn’t do what I asked, more so when it wasn’t really any of her business and she was just asking for information not coz she cared.

Oh I didn’t think that my mum could be feeling guilty about her and my dad ruining my friendship with Holly but agree it’s why she wants me to forget about it and just be friends with Holly.

Aunty listened to me a little more and said if Holly had the confidence to come round and act all innocent with my Mum (I think she did force herself on my Mum) then she should come back round and we can talk. Aunty offered to mediate ...I don’t think Holly will do this.

Ha no vicar yet! Although my mum and toms Mum did meet this weekend for the first time, unplanned, in the supermarket. There was no getting out of not introducing them to each other and OMG they didn’t stop talking and they carried shopping! At least they liked each other.

Yeah my Mum does think if she goes into a hospital she gets so anxious that she thinks she gonna keel over and not come back out again. But that’s silly coz both grandparent weren’t the most sociable people, never excerised, both were really overweight coz all they did was eat really unhealthy. I used to like going to visit when I was little coz they had ‘sweetie jars’ and I came home quite hyper. My mum is the complete oppersite and she’s still worries :-/.

Yeah aunty had been left by husband by then and she was selling family home with two kids. Think they both needed Counselling. It was left to my dad to carry them both.

Think scopes has disappeared down A manhole :-/

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Nope I'm here LILS. I'd love to have a sweetie jar as I have quite the sweet tooth :-)

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It was my turn down the manhole, Lils. (Scopes and I own a timeshare. ;-))

Everything above, noted, all sounds positive (or getting there)...

Have you done the letter to Holly yet? And yes, that's right, I do remember her confidence knocking attempt and, yes, fair enough. Life's too short for putting up with positivity sucking peeps. But I do think you should give her a chance to redeem herself before dumping for-good...which you can only do by enlightening her over how you don't appreciate her lack of support and encouragement LIKE A TRUE FRIEND TENDS TO DO.

Aunty offered to mediate, did she? She really wants to be where she's needed and allowed to be involved, doesn't she just! Not that that's a bad thing, just noting. And then her sons wonder why she wants to be closer to you lot..... "duuh?". What's all this about not wanting her to? *They* don't want her but don't want anyone else to have her? Or do they just like having her nearby 'in case they ever'? (Convenience, anyone?) You'd think they'd be happy for her and give her their blessing if, as is apparent, they're too busy getting on with their own lives, wouldn't you.

Do you suppose she over-compensated back then for the fact she 'gave them' a crap dad, by over-praising them and giving them too many privileges? Or did her ex-husband undermine her authority and respect-worthiness in their eyes, and it stuck? How do they tend to speak to her and address her, in your opinion?

How's her health now? And what's the latest with mum's 'specimen studies'? Has she concluded the woman's barking mad yet? LOL

Re the mums meeting dans le supermarche. Unplanned by WHOM? Fate? ;-)

What else is new, then? I'll be freer for the next week, btw. Or should be (don't want to jinx myself again).

And how're tricks with you, Scopester?

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LILS, Soulmate with the holidays coming upon us I'm busy with not just shopping but closing on purchasing a hill. Hopefully all will be said and pretty much done this weekend.

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You're buying a hill?

BUYING a hill?



Are you embarking on a self-build, set into a hill? Or do you just *really* love toboggan-ing? LOL

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I know why my dad has been so happy, he’s got a new job at the same hospital he wanted to work at before the one that’s no where near home. He will be working there for 3 days and hes still going to be in partnership at his surgery. It’s gonna take up all his time, even tho he’s made sure he won’t be working weekends. Apparently he and my mum have discussed this in Counselling a lot but I can’t tell if my Mum is ok with this. I’m not too sure about this either it makes me nervous.

Now I don’t know if this is the reason why my mum is hanging on to leech face,coz they still go out together. I don’t think she’d go live with her again coz aunty is here to support her. Aunty seems think at the moment they are in couselling and we gotta trust that this has been discussed properly but she get why I’m anxious. I’m just pleased aunty is here this time...if this becomes an issue.

Also the school situation with sis has got a bit worse and my mums had to start talking teachers. So she’s got that going on too.

Holly came round in the end, I texted her and asked if she wanted to come round and talk about the letter. I didn’t think she’d want to coz of aunty being there to mediate but she was up for it.
Erm, didn’t go too well ...Firstly, Holly and aunty did all the talking coz it was mainly about ex bf and how upset she had been when he dumped her and that it’s taken her nearly a whole year to get over it. Aunty didn’t really buy into this being the reason for us not being friends anymore and asked her what it had to do with our friendship. Holly tried to blame the fact that tom and I had started dating so I wasn’t around and What tom had done... I, before this little meeting had spoken to tom about this, and apparently at the time, Holly had confronted him on what he did and they had resolved it between I pointed this out to her and challenged her on why she brought it up when it was resolved and she just looked at me a bit speechless.
I did have my say too, had each point written down, which I think annoyed her coz she kept on glaring at my bit of paper with my notes on! I pointed her jealousy, her pettiness, and how she had not acknowledged about parents separation AT ALL , which was why I wasn’t always able to hang out with her but she always assumed I was with tom. Basically, she couldn’t handle what I was saying (was said nicely) got p*ssed off and told me I was going to be a crap counsellor coz I couldn’t even empathise with her and she could see I wasn’t listening when she was talking about ex bf. I was listening and I did empathise, along with Aunty but I had also read a very long seven page letter about it...thought it was partly for auntys benefit.
Aunty tried to suggest we both forgive and forget and go to the pub and get drunk but we both told her ‘ no’ ...she also thinks Holly might need Counselling and then maybe she will then start to see things from my point of view...Fun times!

been learning about counsellors chellenaging/confronting their clients in Counselling, had to do role plays too ( ugh) at college. Think my tutor would of been pleased with me coz I found those role plays hard and uncomfortable. Also homework was to write about a time where we had to challenge/confront someone, and how it made us feel before, during and after...thanks Holly, homework done, bish, bash, bosh! (Y)

Older cousin only wants aunty near him for child care, she admits this now. Him and wife have got one baby and another on the way, wasn’t planned, explains the very small age gap between two babies. She does want to be there when baby is born but has said lots of day visits will be fine. Younger cousin I don’t think ever really visited her and still hasn’t! Neither of them speak to her nicely, they are always moaning at her and questioning her decisions and have always thrown tantrums. But I think shes let them get away with it because she feels guilty about their dad.

Oh my god, now that my mum has met toms mum she wants to invite them round when tom is back from uni at Xmas ugh...

Yeah, scopes, what you gonna do with your Hill?

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LILS sound your mum has alot on her plate. I have had a bit of a close call with electronically wiring money for closing of the escrow today. Electronic wiring of money fraud was in the front of my mind however it's all good now.

What am I going to do with the hill? Not tobogganing that's for sure. I've gone to a website that shows home floor plans, there's one that I have in mind.

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Scopes, there were many sweetie jars in the grandparents house, not just one; there was at least one in every room :-/ .

so you’re building a house on your Hill? Do you own it now it’s the 8th today (incase you hadn’t noticed :-D) . Why not tobogganing ? Its fun :-p.


Argh, aunty says she’s has been trying to defuse arguments between my mum and Dad this afternoon since they came back from Counselling :-|. Not that surprised if I’m honest just really hoping things don’t go t*ts up again.

Aunty has gone into protective mode and is not saying how bad it is or what it was about but I think I take take a guess. she says she’s got it under control-ish, ha don’t like the ‘Ish’ bit’. She wants me and sibs out the house if they start arguing again. she’s knows I can handle it she’s more worried about sibs and she’s suggested we make plans with friends. Luckily tom is home this weekend!

If all my grandparents were here they’d be sorting out parents too :-|

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LILS let's hope mum and dad suppress the arguments during Christmas month. Lets hope for aunties sake leach face doesn't jump back into the picture again.

You're lucky I'm not at the grandparents house or I'd be snarfing in every room with my sweet tooth!

Dun deal, property signed sealed recorded and closed!

Problem: no snow = no tobogganing there could be a serious problem with fire dangerous this year.

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I hope they sort it out quickly. It was only yesterday I was thinking we were going to have a really nice Xmas this year and then I came home from college to be told that, really frustrating! Wouldn’t know if they’ve been arguing today, been keeping myself busy and doing lots of Xmas stuff.. All I know is my dad walked out of the Counselling session :-/

Ha ha I can just imagine leech face turning up for ‘moral support’ for my mum and aunty telling her to go away,it wouldn’t be done politely. Doubt she will, she’s scared of aunty :-)

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(Cheers Scopesie! :-) Good luck with your self-build, you lucky ugger, what a wonderful opportunity! Don't forget the Media Room, will you!)

So (hi, LOL) dad's put spice into his life via a big chunk of variety? Very sensible. Shame he couldn't have thought of that long before now, eh. But then I guess he (subc.) wouldn't have had this platform for agitating those latent personal and marital niggles to the surface where they could be dealt with, would he.

I expect he's also 'so happy' because he came close to the marital cliff-edge and lived to tell the happier tale, eh. :-) (It's never the one thing, as a specie we're not that inefficient.)


What do you mean, can't tell? Er - ASK HER OUTRIGHT? know...with that funny cavernous hole in the middle of your face? ;-p Certainly, any peer of hers would. So act like that's what you are, now (which you're in a serious relationship and share and share running a business with her, which was *your* initiative!).

I mean, seriously - what *is* this not daring to ask your own mum direct questions, despite even having a right to info regarding a situation that's you- and whole-family-affecting? Same for why she's having anything still to do with Lena - ask her. And don't cease until you're satisfied. I'm particularly surprised given the fact you managed an even harder version of it that time after she had a fit about that woman's car in your dad's drive. Why the loss of confidence since then?

Maybe your mum feels Lena's nice company if kept at a safer arm's length and, yes, doesn't have enough, now, to keep her busy or socially fed? Or - the other, already mentioned possibility since this event is coinciding with the counselling - a Lena type is part of these past problems now coming back to haunt?

Can't you and she go out every fortnight for a girlie evening?...discuss the biz and your love-life, etc.? A regular 'Chinese' Night?

In summary, Lils, there are two ways 'kids' start to get treated (at appropriate times) like an adult by a parent: [a] the parent behaviourally endows that right and the kid responds befittingly maturely or [b] the kid takes that lead and the parent is the one that responds, often unthinkingly. Once that switch occurs - MAINTAIN IT. Order non-particular with those two because I believe it should start with the kid, same as - the parent is not the one to say, 'Right little Joanna/Johnny - today is the day you're going to cease crawling and try walking!'. Nay. Kid leads / parents chase after to catch-up. Nature's way. Show her you're an adult THUS A FRIEND, NOW - go for it! If you don't, when that remedy is so p*ss-simple, then somehow that nervousness must (subc.) be serving you in some way - ber-bom.

It's your growth and development. Up to you where you choose to apply it. Plus she's been in statis and plus the "other (not) woman" incident was a one-off; you can't expect to nurture a new habit in her with a one-off.

So do that, is my pushier-person advice - apply it - lead. Yes? *Nobody* around here would say you of all people weren't capable.

Different matter if it's her, being a clam all of a sudden. But you know the drill - interrogate harder, LOL. (They *all* crack in the end.) It'll give your tenacity and persuasion muscles a good work-out. As long as you know ("God give me...") where you have a right to push and where you don't, that's the main thing. The point is, you see, you shouldn't *have* to push. [ting!/halo]

You can't make Auntie your sidekick, gotta have *your own* skillset. ;-)

Or put her on and *I'll* ask her. (LOL although I would, actually....which reminds me of that time when an OP's (git of a) husband came on here and tried to have a go at me ...the fool. ;-))


Oh. Just read that she's got blister's bullies in her in-tray. In that case, wait a bit for the better moment.


I think thanks to this latest very clear evidence, I've just 'diagnosed' Holly! Her whole theme is, You didn't rescue me (and you're still not)! Methinks her boyfriend was a Narc. - it TAKES a year - AT LEAST, TRUST ME! - to get over one of those. Because they Trauma Bond and create huge emotional dependence in you - to make it impossible for you *not* to stick around (stay and try to fix hassle versus a year or more of an agonising, emotional nightmare - no contest, I'll stay!). It's psychological enslavement, Stockholm Syndrome. Go google, you'll see. He obviously did a hard-and-fast number on her with deliberate lack of closure as his cherry on the top. And - because his number is Unreasonable/Toxic Thinking - she (think virus) *caught* that bug somewhat! That explains why she's been being illogical and unreasonable, why she's hell-bent on BEHAVIOURALLY HINTING for help in a way that avoids yet more overt vulnerability in showing her belly (with him, any showing it would have got it punched - repeatedly!). In short, she's been, to a degree, Narcissised.

She's used to Narcs. Her mother's one (or is an infected victim herself). So she sticks with the type of person she knows already how to function with and deal with, but with a few Rescuers on-hand. But, not knowing or realising what they are, she's been nicking some of their 'skills' as if perfectly normal and okay/usable...which is what you've been seeing. Emotional Blackmail is the name of the above illustration.

Her mouth is unreasonable, but, conversely, look at her actions. She went to a hell of a time and effort with that letter. She agreed. She came. She endured....Even though two against one. That's fighting for a relationship, that is. Narcs don't do that; most they'll do is bribe and blackmail from afar, lifting neither leg, just one finger (typety-type, "yawn, must I?"). Because they *always* have someone you can be replaced with at the drop of a hat waiting in the wings - so why bother? You're not worth the effort.

She's longish-term lately a crap friend because she's been crapped on for too long. And because she's so wounded, it's "(ow) me-me-me". You cope - with anything and everything...sail through, she doesn't. (That's how *she* perceives you.) You appeared unscathed ergo with ample free head time, you should have been on looking-after-*her* duty.

So's not to damage her psyche further (than he already has, I mean), you'll have to communicate to her somehow (letter's best) that she needs more than you or any 'mere' friend right now, that counselling will give her back her power and confidence (her GP will assist with that) - and that to come out of this chrysallis a superwoman, also *needs* a spell totally on her own (it'll hurt at first but cease soon enough if she grits her teeth to let herself adapt to it and realise how enjoyable it actually is to get to really know then like then love yourself) so that she can learn to have fun with and rely on her own company thus never feel alone or lonely or non-confident with/constrained in relationships EVER AGAIN - to enable the strength to GET AWAY from these p**ks (fear of being alone compounds the fear they create in you about being's part of their own illness, as infects you, remember?) - and that, although you and she are on completely different pages of your respective development process for a while, meaning, temporarily horribly incompatible, she should contact you when she feels strong and confident enough to never again risk ruining her friendships with this Insecure Attachment style (Anxious-Preoccupied) fear and avoidance behaviour. Because the way she's been behaving, although not her fault - she's making her fears COME TRUE, look! Think driving, and not focusing on the scary oncoming cars. One 'follows' ones eyes automatically so - CRASH! However, even eyes-forward, if you look too far up the road, you're not seeing sudden obstacles immediately ahead - CRASH! Ditto for focusing only mainly on the immediate foreground. It's ignoring the oncomings and focusing on the MID ground you want. That way, view dead centre of 'the frame', you see everything in the periphery as well as avoid crashing into your fears.

IOW, she's too scared and insecure (product of being freaked/traumatised/battered) to be capable of being a healthy thus pleasurable friend at the mo (long-term 'mo'). Too frightened and insecure, even of you, to remember or be capable of being humble and 100% honest or remember that *you* wouldn't ever punch her stomach like he did (and, presumably, mum did). But she's curable because she's not the disease, she's just caught a bit of it off of the diseased and the other secondarily-affected peeps. Her instinctual actions are healthy, her surface mindset and babble aren't. (Sense?) Bottom Line actions win.

So yes, Auntie's right, she literally doesn't have the wherewithal to see yours or anyone else's POV at the mo. (Sorry, I'm long-winded tonight because I'M KNACKERED!...."not enough hours in the day, grumble-grumble"...)

Remember: *all* injured animals are me-me-me. But are they permanently in that state or can they recover and *want* to?, is the key question regarding whether you prepare to stick it out, even from the wings as you execute a break, so's not to risk getting affected into infected (via empathy), yourself.

Let her know that although she's too infectious for visitors, you're waiting in the corridor just outside if she really, seriously needs you. You're abandoning her, for a while, with Love (via reassurance that you're not rejecting her permanently) and because it's the kindest, most productive thing you could do at this juncture.

If, once she's recovered, you find you don't wish to honour that 'contract' - she won't mind a jot, she'll be calm and happy enough to take it non-personally in her stride as just a case of 'no longer each other's cup of tea'. Win/win.


Not all psychotherapeutic counsellors challenge or confront. Some echo back re-worded so that you challenge yourself, or cunningly lead/manipulate you into challenging yourself. Depends on the discipline or mix-of. So I'm *very* glad to hear that's in your curriculum, because that's what's needed, now and henceforth, with this recent worrying increase in Cluster B numbers and resultant victims. I firmly believe that if someone's been trauma bonded and brainwashed to a certain nearly permanent degree then only 'traumatic' counselling is its equal as an antidote. There's an art, however, whereby the person realises too easily that the entire time you absolutely have their best interests at heart so MEAN well (the 'bullying' is of the friendly and harmless variety, more just very bossy and masterful). Same as a dentist can cause you pain when treating you (e.g. injection). Otherwise, it's going to take that much longer to undo the damage (which is a gift that keeps giving, long after the NPD has left, meaning, you're against the habitualisations clock). But it does mean that you have to stay and soothe and massage them afterwards. Narcs don't undo the wounds they inflict - which in fact is what causes the damage - but you do undo yours and send them away without so much as a faint limp or twinge; diff/all the diff.


"but has said lots of day visits will be fine"

Yup, agree that's healthier.

"they are always moaning at her and questioning her decisions and have always thrown tantrums. But I think shes let them get away with it because she feels guilty about their dad."

Absolutely, it's what I said I suspected before. But, again, I do think their mum is going a bit alarmingly fast for them in terms of slingshot-ing them into fuller independence, finally. Hence the 'protest march', particularly 'the baby' who's got more reason to fight to keep yesterday's status quo through not having 'enjoyed' as many of those 'cushy' years as elder bro. It's great that Auntie's so proactive and forceful *but* she needs to additionally possess its counter-tools so as not to be a one-trick pony in only one climate, *and* to avoid triggering all this throwing around of Hotwheels and teddies. Refer to 'over-abrupt whipping away of the chair' analogy earlier/above. At this point, she comes across 'one extreme all the way over to the other', which is not really fair when she originally helped put them there, is it?

Ham-fisted is the word I think I'm looking for. I get that she's beyond Had Enough stage, but that again wasn't their fault. It was 'his'. But it's still her duty as their mum, to take all of that into account when trying to exert such a massive change.


"Oh my god, now that my mum has met toms mum she wants to invite them round when tom is back from uni at Xmas ugh..."

What do you mean ugh? What's ugh about it?


Don't worry about the post-session arguments, these are ones of the healthy and productive variety. However, if they're going to let you and your sibs and auntie into it - by allowing them to witness or overhear (earwigo again) - then by-rights you should be allowed to be present for the make-up talk/debrief. So if they're not allowing that then Auntie's right to save sibs from witnessing it in the first place.

Mum and dad are missing a trick. They need to end each session with a meal out. That way things won't/can't get heated but, to begin with, each of them will also word things more tactfully, etc., so as to avoid even *feeling* like making a scene. They also should take a pad and pen so as to write down any thoughts or arguments that occur whilst the other's still speaking so as to avoid the need to interrupt. That way, everyone wins.

As things stand, they're (subc) trying to get every argument done and dusted now so as *not* to have any bad feelings ruin Xmas.

(PS: Even Auntie's scared of Auntie. And if you can work out what I mean by that, I'll be very impressed. :-))


(Good grief, I've just looked up - so incredibly inarticulate but too tired to re-write. Let me know if you need a re-write tomorrow.)

Parents split up

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I’ll reword that, I know my mums not happy, think she’s furious about my dads accepting new job, and I don’t know how much he discussed it with her before he accepted the job. This was the main problem in the first place and I don’t think she’ wants him working away from home.

With leech face she’s still very defensive. aunty has been asking why she bothers with her and my mum has got a bit snappy but I think that’s mainly to stress. But i will be asking her about all of this probably over the half whern she’s also not working and sis by at school.

The bullying escalated even more to where these girls are threatening sis iand my Mum been in and out of the school talking to the head teacher, trying to sort it out. The good thing is that he boys who sis is friends with are sticking up for her. Sis is saying she’s only defends herself and not being spiteful back...I think I believe her but here is a little kinda smug look on her face too when she says this.

I like the idea of going out with my mum every two weeks, just me and her. we have always been close but we lost some of that closeness when she and my dad split up. We kinda rekindled if a bit when we started up biz but it’s never really gone back to how it was.

They start to argue in front of us but then my my dad is like ‘go away’ and we have to leave. he’s too scared to say that to aunty though ha. Aunty decided we shouldn’t have to go anywhere coz of the parents arguing and she kicked them out of the house for a walk every time when they started arguing over the weekend. Bro went to go to his girlftiends house, he’s smitten :-). Aunty is determind to have a nice Xmas too and so Whilst they were out, me tom aunty and sis decorated the house and outside and made it look Christmassy, not that the parent took much noticed. She did encourage them to go out for a meal for my Mums birthday and they came back separately :-/

Auntie has met a new man down the pub :-D. I’ve only seen him, quite good looking too and he’s local so if she does move here which is still seems to be happening. Think she’s goes there to recover from the parents :-/ and mainly to get her confidence back again with going out after being ill (she’s a lot better) she’s walks there and I pick her up which is the least I can do coz she been amazing . Trying to convince her to let me meet him properly.

Erm aunty is scared of herself ...(this might not make any sense) she concentrates on other people (like parents, looks out for me and sibs) and likes help them fix their problems but doesn’t concentrate on herself or her own problems, like sons or try’s to make herself happy/happier coz she’s scared to? Or what might happen if she were dunno, am I close? :-D

I think it’s interesting Holly boyfriend was a narc, I didn’t really know him that but he did really string her along. Tom is still friends with him so I might ask him what he thinks, hes probably already analysed him. Holly actually got back in contact with me she called me it wasn’t by text or anything and she apologised for getting angry she’s says she just hurting. It was a long conversation but not a bad one. She never apologises, ever. so I think that was quite a big step for her and a positive one. And now that you explained it to me, I get it now, why she was the way she was and the whole rescuing thing and that she is fighting for our friendship etc so I’m going to try too and restart our friendship. Will take it slow to start with. I could mention Counselling I don’t know, just don’t want to sound patronising. Will think about it.

Parents meeting is ugh coz my dad will be socially awkward, depending on his mood and he’s says odd/embarrassing things. I still cringe at his ‘don’t bounce on the bed’ comment . And I’m not quite ready. Not going to happen if they’re still arguing anyways.

Biz is going to be in a weekly magazine that goes out in my local area. we get it but I’ve never looked at it coz I thought it was really boring :-/. One of the kids parents spoke to the right people and suggested it was something to write about, and it got agreed and someone is coming to ‘interview/find out all about it’ in the new year. Should advertise biz a bit more and should get more kiddies to teach :-).

Parents split up

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Oh, I see, I didn't realise he'd have to be away from home for this new part-time job!

Oh good grief. Why is he so incredibly intent on injecting a pocket of long-distance-ing into his marriage? What does Auntie think? Is it really merely to spice up his career or is he hell-bent on trying to have his cake and eat it in terms of getting to benefit from a pseudo semi-single life?

If that's the case, meaning, *didn't* put it to the marital vote before accepting, then it becomes clear why she's keeping Lena to hand. Lena's her 'see you and raise you' Poker hand, her Ace card. Lena wants her (at the very least) to join her Singles club, doesn't she. Mum couldn't admit that to Auntie and you - give away her subtle game (or counter-game) plan - either of you might tell dad. Plus, she might not even be aware of what she's up to, enough to articulate it. Explains the 'shut-you-up' snapping in place of the guarded answer.

If you tell Auntie this, ensure she'll keep it to herself and not tell dad, or else she'll be 'disarming' and scuppering mum (who is now, case-closed, the 'victim'). Likewise, if you're going to attempt to squeeze this blood out of her stone, promise faithfully and vehemently that anything she tells you will stay with you, UNTIL DEATH, no exceptions, no extenuators, including circumstantial...cast-iron guaranteed, Amen.

Saying that, his intentions could be just childishly 'harmless', as in, an attempt to recreate a missed part of his young adulthood in getting to 'hang with the Lads', IN ORDER NOT TO be mutineered by the latent urge to see himself struggle himself right out of his marriage.

But I don't like it.

What do *you* think it is?


Blister could be looking smug out of a recognition of her being Loftier Than Thou (them) and knowing it means she's far more mature than them? Ditto the fact she's cleverly managed to cultivate a posse of, basically, bouncers? I expect these boys are positively climbing over each other to get this wonderful chance to play Hero and put those muscles to real-life practise, and in defense of a Tomboy at that ('prizefighter seeks bodyguard'). Again - ask her. Ask her in a flatteringly impressed way: make the 'accusation' and immediately follow it with, '...nah, what am I talking about, you're only ****teen, not Thirty-****!...sorry, forget I said anything...' (and then wait for her to argue against that 'denial of her brilliance'). Again, shouldn't *have* to manipulate, she should be treating you like the older, wiser, reasonable big blister you least confiding in you, even if she didn't want any input. But you should hopefully only need to play her (For A Good Cause - diff/diff) the once to get the ball started. Or you could try saying [replete with awestruck laughter], 'Crikey! Am I right in thinking that you've somehow managed to gather yourself an actual cartel?! NO WAY!.........Have you???' (or ditto in the vein of her having so much feminine power over all those boys, as in, 'What the hell's your secret?!').

"Aunty decided we shouldn’t have to go anywhere coz of the parents arguing and she kicked them out of the house for a walk every time when they started arguing over the weekend."

Was going to state the exact same criticism! "Rah-rah woo-hoo!" Auntie yet again!

"Bro went to go to his girlftiends house, he’s smitten Smiling. "

Yeah. Helped, not in small part, by his wanting to 'practise leaving home', as in limber-up, I'm betting.


Re the post-session meals out. Doesn't matter if they come back separately or have a scene in the car home. What's important is that the actual discussion itself is conducted calmly so that it goes in more and faster (and they get to practise self-control).


"Auntie has met a new man down the pub Grinning."

(not grinning)
If only Auntie had as much clarity and sensible-ness in her own love-life, eh. Case of Can't See Own Woods despite can see others' especially well. Has she never heard of taking the time to get over someone first (i.e. de-slime) so that she doesn't 'transfer' the relationship to the next bloke (or vice-versa since even situational like attracts like) or attract someone who's lazy to do their own ruinous Priming ("cheers, Other Narc!")? If you can, advise her to take it *very* slowly; it's an acid test in itself like no other. If a bloke tries to rush intimacy and commitment or "oops"-passively allows it (i.e. secretly, subtly cultivates it in her) - DUMP. Only your Narcissists or 'merely' heavily narcissistic do that, it's a classic textbook early warning sign. Think about it: a man who was normal and healthy enough would value and respect himself whereby he'd not want to embroil himself with an unknown, potentially emotionally harmful quantity and thereby put his welfare and progress in jeopardy. He himself would want to know the relationship were *safe* before going in deeper. And that instinctually takes a year at least. Narcs/AsPDs, on the other hand, need to beat your wide-awakening (over what an in-fact secret NUTJOB they are) to the marital or cohabitational alter (in her house, always her house*) do the female Narcs, I should swiftly add for equality's sake.

(*You can't leave if they're in your house, think about it. Plus, by then, you might know you risk getting either your face or your house or its contents trashed if you sit them down and give them the bad news.)

Auntie has indeed been amazing. No question about it.

"Erm aunty is scared of herself ...(this might not make any sense) she concentrates on other people (like parents, looks out for me and sibs) and likes help them fix their problems but doesn’t concentrate on herself or her own problems, like sons or try’s to make herself happy/happier coz she’s scared to? Or what might happen if she were dunno, am I close? Grinning"

Bang-on - Gold star (and, *everything* makes sense to me, it's part of my "Marmite-ey problem"). Fear Of Success (albeit, waning). Although, it wasn't actually the answer I was looking for.

It's this: she's intimidating....she barks and growls early, even immediately, as a default, as a full-time (note) Early Warning System (you tell it's not mere hot air from the myriad actions-actions-actions as all point exclusively to excellent agenda and get *completed*), so THAT she won't have to see the situation progress to the point where she's forced to fully unleash her inner beastie or (by then) get mutineered by it beyond any choice or control. It's a biggie. IMO, it's a raging Psychopath. Don't panic! - it's very much Pro Social (psychopathy itself isn't a problem - the Pro Socials are your Police and Firemen/women, surgeons, etc. - any more than "guns are dangerous" - and yes they *do* have empathy - now-proven research fact...but the bad psychopaths push it aside, can literally (as only a psycho can do) turn it on and off at will like a tap, so that it can't scupper their overriding, rotten, survivalist agenda...the original clue having been, they have empathy for themselves - in bucketfuls!). She's a monster of a saint, IOW. Put another, easier way: there's your bad-to-evil psycho (Lex Luther) and then there's your good-to-saintly psycho (Superman). Superman is *obsessed*, *compulsed* and *over-focused* with/on doing the selfless, right thing and only the right thing, always-always-always, and using his (or her) superior levels of strength for the power of social, human and world good - just *any* underdog/good cause - but, being a psycho, is perfectly capable of switching to unleashing his/her inner monster TOWARDS OTHER FULL-TIME MONSTERS, never innocents/victims. The good psychos are the superior, Top Dog out, shown by the fact they've enough self-esteem and strength of mind spare to give away to other people and interests...their cup spilleth over, IOW. And instead of having to turn ON their empathy, like your bad'uns, they merely have to turn that which is usually permanently on, off, if and when called-for. (Surprisingly simple when you think about it in those terms, isn't it.)

Niceness<-->Goodness, absolutely not the character trait that most erroneously think it is. It's a CHOICE - FACT!...Usually made, IMO, because - being 'everyone's parent', a natural-born leader self-separated by whatever degree from the 'hoi polloi' (which efficacy demands constant objectivity of mind to avoid the danger of being influence-able by others' emotionality) - there's huge guilt at the strong but un-graspable sense/suspicion of how nasty - how much of a lethal SHARK - they're capable of being, given the right trigger to the right degree. Enter equal level of compensation, in terms of effort in taking responsibility and leading (check). But that negative, judgemental label, itself is due to the societal-wide, ignorance-based misunderstanding and misconclusions over psychopathy leading to having to necessarily and automatically be a bad thing. (I'll say it again: I've known genuinely *good, well-meaning, perfectly benign* Narcs and Psychos; whatever type exists will consist of good'uns and bad'uns.)

She's scared of and ashamed at her inner animal. Because it's that big and powerful.

It's no different to belonging to the population sector that sports Brown hair as opposed to Red, Blonde or Black. Out of that sector, some individuals will be intrinsically healthy and do-gooding and some ucked-up/uck-up-able, or whatever degree in between. Same for your Red heads, etc. It's the person, not what culture, creed, colour, religion, gender, age...

Or put another way: for a good psycho, exterminating psychologically/spiritually (from within) or actually (from without - murder) is a very last resort. Bad psycho - first to mid resort. Diff/ALL THE DIFF!

What, IMO, makes the nucleic difference? [1] The state of THE SOUL. And that, you're born with (IMO, depending on how many lives you've been ("fail!") sent back to live). [2] Next (fact) comes whether your parents are spooked by you (or not), thus don't show you enough love via physically and/or emotionally keeping a distance (or not)...basically, as with any type of child, whether how they are with you both encourages out and rewards thus reinforces what you are into a good thing or bad thing ...the bad being the parents', particularly mother's, own fearful attitude automatically creating a negative self-fulfilling prophesy/driving into the oncoming cars (see 'We Have To Talk About Kevin' by Lionel whassherface...Schriver, I think?). What can override that in the current absence, still, of enough global societal and medical understanding of the condition - which they now believe has legitimately neurological basis as much as Autism - is iQ and its 7-Signs 'arrangement', meaning, even if the parents and/or siblings 'shun' you, you've the brains and inner mettle to work out why that is, allow them that failing/not take it personally, and just get on with parenting/rearing yourself (like you're programmed to do and would have rebelled to do, anyway) and, if you're intelligent enough, in the right and healthy, optimising direction. (That's why I adore little boys and girls who aspire to being "Thuperman" or "Thuperwoman", running around with their little capes on. That freewill choice of dressing-up outfit plus 'what they do with it' once dressed (think Mr Ben) is an obvious-but-overlookable indicator of a good heart/soul + innate (starting) intelligence aspiring towards its fullest potential, perfectly accessible destiny.) In short, if you've got a little psycho on your hands, do yourself and him/her and the world a favour by taking the poor little ugger to see Superman before s/he's 6 or buy him/her Superman comics or whatever other hero figure to latch onto. S/He'll basically sit there through the film, feeling an affinity and 'thinking', 'Well, I reckon I could do That...once I'm bigger, anyway. And That. And what's so hard about That, that's just a logical response, isn't it?'. Thus self-identified, from thence will it grow.

GOOD psychopaths are Walking Miracles and God knows where we'd be without them (knee-deep in bad psychos, is the obvious answer, since Like fights Like). And you can include Einstein in that; thinking in terms of Boss over what?, you can't get much more hugely socially-responsible leader than ignoring the people/small stuff and aiming your uber-control-freak mitts straight for the Universe its very self, now, can you?)

Look again at Auntie and count up not only the amount of suitcases she carries all at once, but their weight as well. (Clicking yet?) Monsters have correspondingly huge backs, innit.

Heh-heh...You'll never look at Ghandi and Mother Theresa the same way again, will ya. ;-)

Steven Spielberg - psycho (good, if idealistic).
Theresa May - psycho (good) (and war minister, actually, IMO...female Churchill for WWIV - cyber version).
Jesus (good psycho de luxe, obvs)...

(...You have a go? Who else can you spot?)

Auntie must have somehow been made and/or worked out she should be secretly ashamed at being a little psychopath, despite given enough attention, praise, encouragement and cuddles (phew, eh?)

(IMO,) Lena's a mere Narc (Malig., on the cups of psycho) - midway on the pathological scale and originally 'made' (rendered) bad. Takes one type to know one, and accordingly (think about it) she proved she was scared/intimidated - instantly - of her [wait for it] senior officer & more powerful superior. Geddit? Full-blown/top psychos aren't scared of no-one or nuffink.

Who else did she act especially or instantly wary of?

Note dad didn't want to confront and challenge her? Not even by proxy of saying a word to mum or anyone? He kept completely zipped. Including his feet where directness and overtness was concerned (he just passively out-carrotted Lena)....while others were going, 'Quick, we've got to DO something, rescue her!'.

But anyway, that's what I meant right up there, when I made that little ' an' yer sister' / 'no, you AREN'T!' / 'yikes, no I aren't!' skit. (You'd be surprised at how much rich data I can get out of mere chit-chat, Lils. But don't let that put you off because it's all very useful for you. Identification is nine-tenths cure. "Know thy patient". Always. From there, you can even customise your 'treatment' if need be. Identification is not just key, it's everything from start to finish.)

...And now I'm pretty certain logical extrapolation will have borne a specific, burning question you're bursting to ask, but don't dare. Well, to make it easy for you - the answer is Affirmative. And then the next logical answer in line is - Yup again - purely logical, Holmes (but clever you). :-) However, we'll keep that and what those questions are, under our hats, eh. Suffice it to say, you 'know' I know, and I 'know' you know (or will in a min). ;-)


"I think it’s interesting Holly boyfriend was a narc, I didn’t really know him that but he did really string her along"

Well, yes. Because that's what they do. It's not enough on its own, but if you already have a list of habitual or what-must-be habitual, characteristic symptoms, the minimum required for any specific condition/illness diagnosis, then - Three Cherries City.

And anyway - you *did* know. That's why I asked you, why the interest, remember? You just didn't yet know you knew or why.

Huge clues about him (and her): We had her so consumed/possessed that she 'dropped' her friends (yet nonetheless didn't seem happy). We have "Pa-jrrrris". We have, him getting her to do the asking, the man's role, i.e. his job (proven by the fact he said yes). We have, Needing a Jimminy (Tom). We have Jimminy feeling the URGE - as strong as taking action (coulda got himself decked, think about it) - to step in. We have, ignoring his stellar advice and guidance (i.e. wasn't rendered at all shameful at the realisation via the pointing-out). We have, him proving he wasn't merely unaware (into shameful) via the fact he proceeded unchanged (middle finger to Tom). We have her still in a mess (injured and spaghettified) one 'WHOLE YEAR' on (sociopaths don't do heartbroken because they were never genuinely in-love to begin with, being dysfunctional in that regard). We have her acting out messily (victim), rather than hiding her feelings and purely machinating. We have her upstanding, strong-personed, RESPONSIBLE actions in response to the super-intimidating (i.e. feeling and enduring the fear of face-to-face plus two-against-one, but doing it anyway and failing to flounce out), despite her nonsensical verbals. We have her being disappointed at your lack of stepping in to rescue (which, in the context of all the other clues and her age/stage, is her projection of her own Situation Normal inclination beneath her erstwhile battered state) and with humility enough to vocalise it (albeit messily). We have daring to say so to two strong people (desperation). We have her expending huge effort on you/your friendship (paying/working for her refusal to let you go easily, rather than relying on her mouth). We have her FAILING to convince/persuade (i.e. hypnotise) you, even slightly. And we have Auntie showing she ultimately felt sorry for her (instead of recoiling, like she did with Lena). ...and other "things 'n stuff" besides.

A Narc, even a mild'un, doesn't need emotional help and certainly wouldn't ask for it (or a double-pincered a*se-whooping). Not like that.

Plus - how did she get that into him in the first place, and in such a short space of time, whereby she can't even wash him out of her hair after he dealt the cruellest insult (Paris) nor even long after they've ended? (Ta-daa - Love-bombing = biochemical chains, of course. Not 'desperate' naturally - MADE desperate.)

I mean - come ON... If you're not that into a girl you do not agree in the first place to go to, of all places, Paris - the city of Love - for a sustained visit - least of all with another couple so obviously already in-love and serious/in it to win it. Because if you do, you're 'saying something', same as if you (neg version) accepted an invitation to a swinger's party or Labour Conference or Klu Klux Klan meeting. Your *first* thought would be, 'OMG, this girl I'm not that into and already planning on dumping wants me to go to an I Love You party; I have to get out of this/tell her now or automatically render myself a cad!'. The cringing guilt, in other words. He not only had no guilt (no conscience) but he unwarrantedly and needlessly-avoidably upset her bang-slap on the peak of the trip. Even 'in front of' you two. What a w***er. Yet, seemingly incredibly, she still didn't dump. Equals, COULDN'T. Enslaved then, still enslaved now. Desperate and prepared to swallow her pride...with someone she'd already fallen out with, no less. And - correspondingly - the point where I can tell you could tell it was genuine. Case closed.

However, he *could* just be incredibly immature and still in naturally Narcissistic teen mode. Time will tell on that score, whether he grows out of it or not.

If it were me, I'd stay and help her, put her under my wing. Even if I didn't like her/her behaviour any more. Just because it's the right thing to do (and the only way to stop these toxics).

And, now obviously - so would you. :-) (Proud of you, btw.)

Not going to coach you into how to do that - you don't need it. But one thing that's paramount that you wouldn't necessarily think of: do not DO NOT *DO NOT-NOT-NOT* let her date for a good year. Whatever it takes. Sit on her if you have to. She's still slimed and will appeal AND DRAW TO HER, a *veteran* Narc (they can smell slime like sharks, blood in the water) who's sick 'n tired of, yawn!, having to Prime his victims first (it's the drudgery part), meaning, next time she'll attract a raging, *bad* psycho. Let her resent you for a brief while but permanently burst with gratitude toward you later when it all falls into place. She clearly needs help to once-and-for-all de-slime and equally clearly ain't going to get that from her mother who's (I reckon) too busy licking her *own* wounds. So who else the uck does she have?

See her alone or with Megan, not with Tom. Don't talk about your relationship, or if she asks, play it down or remind her of the humdrum (spotted him picking his nose yesterday, ugh, boys, eh?!). When you're with her - you're single (albeit not interested and available, obvs.). Help her cultivate a hobby she can't put down so she stays away - CAN stay away - from pubs, parties....basic cruising grounds. Maybe even give her a (back-room) job in your biz? Or help her make plans - she needs a present or near-future project to aim for, it's *vital* to have a goal that represents the prize for and healthy distraction toward abstaining. Ultimately, if a person's too far slimed for Cold Turkey, they need to simply redirect their addiction from the unhealthy to the healthy and long-term rewarding.

But here's what will likely happen once she's fully recovered: for a good year, possibly more, she will no longer want to be around you whom has become the walking memory of her at her worst as 'now' makes her cringe at the thought of, nor you-the too-obviously-'superior'-figure...she'll start to make herself scarce, make excuses, cancel/break plans, fade out... She might so want and need to forget and disassociate New Her from the embarrassingly shame-inducing era, that she has to stay away from anyone or anything that reminds her. But she'll be back at some point, not least if ever you're down or injured (in order to level the playing field - positive, healthy version).

Re counselling: sell it. It's not a place where weak or stupid people go (pff! - we wish!). It's where strong, courageous and especially intelligent but injured or slightly lost people go...just a psychological version of visiting the dentist to get your teeth filled and then whitened. It's proof of self-like at the very least. Frankly, not wanting to go would be akin to dreading and being embarrassed about attending a glamour make-over shop or taking your car to the mechanic's to find out why the steering's pulling to the left. Feeling that fear but doing it anyway proves you're fixable and improve-able (all humans, regardless of any mental illness, even, are non-overridingly programmed to avoid acts of *futility*, thus do just that, big-fat-innit).

(Guess who (plural) have been responsible for cultivating this infectious shame and fear of needing counselling by labelling it a sign of weakness - go on, I'll give you 5 guesses!)

And there's nothing patronising about suggesting counselling, because you, Lils, wouldn't even bother if you didn't have every confidence in her, not to mention respect (think about it and get her to think about it). If something's really special to you, you want it fixed rather than have to throw it in the bin - simples! It's the ultimate act of healthy self-like/love...a tool/amenity that's been put on a table perfectly accessible to her, which is for her lasting, hugely life-enhancing, happy-making benefit, no more scary than a step-ladder up to an ever-replenishing jar of sweets. Plus, it's fun (*great* fun - I mean - doooo WHAT? - where else in life are you allowed to talk incessantly about yourself?). It's a privileged pampering as well as a 'surgical' ankle-weights removal under 'anaesthetic'.

So it's a compliment and reason for pride.

Americans seemingly know all of this, hence, since the 80s, it's 'my therapist this, my therapist that...' to all and sundry (thanks to Oprah, probably), like a badge of honour.

Next suggestion is, offer to go with her for the first session or (counsellor allowing - explain and s/he will) just until she says - the once - Stop. It'll be the sort of excellent experience for you that money can't buy, Lils.

Warning: primary, paramount, crucial, non-negotiable selection question to therapist: are you well-acquainted personally or (better yet) professionally with Narcissism and NVS plus PTSD and/or CPTSD? (That's what she's got, by the way - CPTSD.) If the answer's No, it's "NEEXT!".

If she's still loath, there's always The Freedom Programme 'classes' (short but miraculous book by founder, Pat Craven - Living With The Dominator (ignore the living with bit, makes no odds)). There'll be one near you, and you can absolutely go with her each time. There, she'll meet fellow, injured targets of all classes and age ranges (and you, copious A1 professional research material + personal, preventative, indepth knowledge).

Or - for the reclusive (lol) - just buy her for Christmas, 'How To Spot A Dangerous Man (*Before* You Get Involved)' - "Describes 8 Types of Dangerous Men, Gives Defense Strategies and a Red Alert Checklist for Each" - by the positively angelic (mwa-mwa-MWA!!!) Sandra M. Brown MA. Cost - approx £10 new, £7 and less second-hand-like-new. But given *now*. And get her YouTubing and Googling on the topic.


"Parents meeting is ugh coz my dad will be socially awkward, depending on his mood and he’s says odd/embarrassing things. I still cringe at his ‘don’t bounce on the bed’ comment . And I’m not quite ready. Not going to happen if they’re still arguing anyways."

"And I’m not quite ready." - that one!, lol. Which, btw, Tom knows**. Hence subtly and surreptitiously testing you out in the first week of uni, combined with his mouth and surface behavioural attempt to say 'Don't care!' in the face of actions that still scream 'Bloody-ucking do!'. But PS: how your parents behave has absolutely no reflection on you. How you *react* will say more in that regard (take the humorous piss). But this is a moot point, anyway; I'm sure your dad, he who deals with the general public every single day and - ooh, lookie! - strangely *hasn't* ever been fired, knows perfectly well how to behave on an important, ground-breaking (for you) occasion. But nice try, lol.

** If ever a lover manages to make you feel, uncharacteristically for you, insecure/threatened/possessive/jealous/non-confident, it's because he's trying to even the playing-field by bringing you down to *his* level, so's to get to keep you (because you're good Narc. Supply). Remember that. Conversely, a man (or woman) who genuinely feels more fortunate or superior (which auto-excludes your NPDs and other unhealthies) will naturally try to build you UP, more to his level. The more extreme the negative result/attempt (and frequency), the more you can measure his level and tell whether the degree befits some emotional/mental problem (which is *all about* degrees). And that's all one ever needs to be aware of, ultimately, when it comes to Keep -v- Dump: does this person make me feel bad and/or bad about myself and if so, how often and how markedly (as a percentage/ratio), compared to the opposite?

But like you say - not going to happen yet, anyway.


"Biz is going to be in a weekly magazine that goes out in my local area. we get it but I’ve never looked at it coz I thought it was really boring :-/. One of the kids parents spoke to the right people and suggested it was something to write about, and it got agreed and someone is coming to ‘interview/find out all about it’ in the new year. Should advertise biz a bit more and should get more kiddies to teach Smiling."


(Y) (Y) (Y) (Y) (Y)

Not surprised. It is a ground-breaker of a biz, after all.

Lucky mag!

Remember me when you're famous and sat on the panel of Dragon's Den, won't you. :-)

Parents split up

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Yeah, it’s same hospital where my dad will be commuting and staying away from home, like 4 hours away. It’s not good at the moment :-(.

I think it’s both, I think it is the job, money but also the fact that he always has to get his own way in the end...eventually, he can’t let go once his mind is made up about something. Dont understand why he’s brought this all up again coz him accepting this job has really, really f**ked things up.

My mum sat me down on saturday, and told me that my dad accepting this job is a real deal breaker for her. Shes made it very clear to him and he will be the one who will be moving out and will need to find somewhere to live.

She told me this a little too softly, so I had to ask if they were going to end up getting divorced and she said it was highly likely because she can’t see how this can be fixed or how she can trust him. Apparently, it’s not just him accepting the job, it’s also how he handled it. he put the job offer on hold, told my mum he wasn't going to take it, so he lied, made things ok(ish) with her again went back a couple of months later (now) and accepted the job.

I knew something was very wrong because my dad slept downstairs, after a really big row since Thursday and they have been doing there own thing over the weekend, keeping well out of each other’s way. My dads study has become his bedroom.

Have tried to talk to my dad but he told me quite aggressively to stay out of it when I tried.

Aunty is furious with my dad and what he’s done but she’s not tried to put him in his place...yet. she doesn’t think my mum wouldn’t of had that conversation with me without meaning any of it. My mum told aunty she wants to be honest so it’s not such a shock when it does happen. My mum talked to bro and sis too indivuslly coz i think she knew we would react differently.

Aunty did think maybe my mum should try with my dad working away and see what it’s like but then she back tracked and said that it would last. Normally she reassures me in some way and let’s me know if she thinks my Mum is overreacting but she hasn’t so far. She thinks I should carry on concentrating on college, biz, friends and tom - and her words were ‘whatever happens don’t let it f*ck you up’.

tom doesn’t even know any of this yet, he came back home for Xmas today, (for a whole month yay, ) but I’ve been avoiding seeing him coz its too raw voice it/wanted to write it on here first.


With leech face, my mum said she hasn’t even told her whats happening but she has confined in another friend (who is a very normal and nice) they’ve been friends for years.


Holly - Feels nice not to be angry with her anymore, also realise I wasn’t completely innorcent either.
Ok I won’t let her date, that will be interesting, probably will end up sitting on her coz she’s always had a boyfriend, all the way through high school - when she didn’t have one she was on the look out for one. I think she can do with a break now but it will be really hard for her.

Getting her to go to Counselling is also going to be interesting too because she doesn’t get it, she is actually one of those people who do think therapy are for really messed up people but I think she could be persuaded, if I sell it to her. It would be really interesting to sit in.

At college we have our own new group of friends, which I think is good, so we won’t see each other all the time and we’ll make it more outside of college. Will have to see if Megan wants to be friends with her again, before she didn’t want anything to do with holly but if I explain things she might understand but she’s at uni anyways so not like they’re going to see each other a lot.

I reckon I could find her a job in biz...but that does mean me her and tom will likely to be together, in the holidays.


I did manage to find away to tell aunty to take it slow with new man and she’s confirmed they are just friends for now and have nice talks that’s it. she rolled her eyes at me and was like ‘it not like I can bring him back home anyway, even if I wanted to’ .

A good psycho :-D (liked reading about the good and bad psychos, that was really interesting) she’s always been crazy but I think she can now start look after herself a bit more. Might even get aunty the book Xmas, still need to get her a present and I’ve been meaning to read and watch ‘we need to talk about Kevin’ for ages.

Parents split up

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Your dad. Wow. He really is socially inept, isn't he, even in a society of two. I don't think your average mature male with an accordingly democratic attitude towards any *PART-NER-SHIP* (say it slow for poor Forrest) would ever condone what he's done or expect to come out unscathed. Whether he entered into so-called marital partnership talks before dismissing her say and going ahead anyway or went entirely behind her back (I flippin' hope not!) - did he somehow suppose that whittling it down to a part-time position, i.e. half the previous proposition, somehow represented a compromise, even in the absence of being unanimously voted in?

His bed, he can lie on it. However, the Fat Lady still hasn't sung.

It's obvious that your mother, unbeknown to her, didn't punish and deter him quite enough last time before returning to the cosy nest (not that she can be placed at any iota of fault for that because - how the hell was she to know he was lying and humouring her?). But that's okay - practise makes perfect...and, as the early return and failure to get things sewn up 'in writing' (i.e. onerous avenues blocked) it was only a run-up anyway....her newly flexing and building up her somewhat nowadays flaccid musculature (thanks to having been for years Having (Doing) It All).

Putting her foot *all* the way down is the right - and only thing to do. Good for her. (And - "phew!" to the fact of her new friend.) Now his choice is clear, isn't it: his marriage and all he's spent years building up or getting to...what? Enhance his career status and pay-packet? What happened to that lady friend after the 'car in driveway' incident, the one who tipped him off about the vacancy in the first place?

He'd have to be an utter idiot to forge ahead with this. So IF HE DOES - we have our answer about how valuable to him his marriage, etc., is (or how incapable he is of appreciating these things when in the spaghettified midst of a mid life crisis). Equally, we'd have to presume that, that hospital features one mighty big carrot, begging the 6 Million Dollar question, WHAT IS IT? Or is the carrot indeed his getting his way over 'his' vocational career? I mean - really? A mere job, not even full-time, is worth losing your wife, family life as you know it, half at least of your wealth, assets, savings, pension funds, shares, investments, immediate and extended family relationships (per se or quality of)...QUALITY OF LIFE AS YOU KNOW IT?

What are they offering him - a penthouse office suite with all the trappings, three personal assistants, chauffeur-driven limosine and a 6-figure salary (plus a genie in a bottle)?

Isn't he basically just 'asking' her for a divorce?

Bar 'the spare room'-ing - do you know what his reaction was when and ever since her having spelled out the giant consequences to him?

I imagine he got quite aggressive because he knows a truth-seer and -sayer like yourself would argue him into a corner of truth, meaning, he knows he's entirely in the wrong without a rational leg to stand on, let alone acceptable. (And evidently the counsellor hit a nerve as well.)

But does she know FOR A CAST-IRON FACT that his job-acceptance is formal and 'irreversible'? Or is that a lie as well, meant to force her to get used to the idea in record time, i.e. him trying it on, so that once the clock runs out on his formally accepting, he can do so with confidence?

Your *mum* means it, sure - or, should I reiteratingly say, is actively pushing herself all the way to Mean It - hence not just sitting you all down this time, but one-by-one, individually. You'd think that were not only unnecessary but against typical protocol. So that speaks volumes to me: That makes THREE SEPARATE tellings (or four if you count Auntie). Talk about mum cementing her conviction so that she can't possibly be talked or fobbed out of it this time! But I'm not sure dad does; otherwise, why hasn't he flounced out to his own place already, why stay in the house for another second? And likewise, why hasn't mum chucked him out already, why LET him set up camp in the study so that everyone can see and feel him sulk, where's the point? *Actions*, Lils. WATCH THEIR FEET, not what they say/don't say.

Nope, it's still Poker as far as I can see. But the stakes have been raised.

But - stay out of WHAT? Something you're already in and have always been in? (Letter time?...therein explaining you just want to understand where he's coming from and because it's your familial co-ownership and 'victim' RIGHT AS WELL AS NEED-TO-KNOW, ACTUALLY?)

However, you may not get much joy AND LET'S HOPE YOU DON'T! If he refuses to show you his cards it's because he thinks he has a potentially winning, but vulnerable, hand. What I mean is - the job may not be the point, getting his way over something that's "his" might be the point, to make or preserve an actually quite scarce remit of control and responsibility? I wouldn't know. You'd have to tot up who historically got to make which and how many family-affecting decisions. What I mean is, sometimes it can *appear* as if one party gets their way when, really, what they tend to get their way over is the small stuff. So - kids, diet, which schools, live where, which type/style of house, pensions with whom....holidays, purchases, including home improvements, budget limits,'s a long list once you marry and have kids. Who in your estimation historically gets to make all the really important, crucial stuff to do with you kids and family life present and future?

Again, he's the acter-outer rocking the boat...clearly wasn't happy with how things stood. Why not and with what?

[a] "Dad. Please. Just TALK to me. I only want to understand your point of view, I won't judge, I promise." Try it. It's worth a go, anyway - don't ask, don't get and all of that?
[b] Print out and leave lying around-oops-a-daisy the right-between-the-eyes article I'm going to post separately straight after this.

It won't eff you up, any of you (*if* it comes to it). That's obvious from the fact each of you has been very busy lately, putting down serious, firm anchors into your love and social lives (which blister's loyal male posse counts as), now knowing that *your* lives can remain as untouched as possible, whether the parents stay together or not. And I'm 100% certain you'll be fine, especially. How do I know? Because instead of forgetting to address all of the other, 'minor' news items, you included them. (Actions - see? - they, or certainly the whole cocktail, tell you all you need to know. :-))

So has Auntie actually moved in? And have you let Tom in on it yet?


Holly: all you need to do, rather than have to sit on her, is get her googling why it's a bad idea- aw, s*d it - here (for starters):

And then she needs to up it a level by googling about why it's especially a bad - AND POTENTIALLY *ACTUALLY* DANGEROUS - idea *after a Narcolationship* (diff/diff). (I know the Miami writer alludes to having been a Narc's 'partner', but not in-yer-face enough for my liking, not for this exercise. The DefCon-ed are cloth-eared, they need LENGTHY/DETAILED, VOLUME KNOB AT 11 AND/OR 10-FOOT TALL LETTERS WRITTEN ON THEIR FACE. They need Drama, basically...because that's what they've been primed as a daily, operative state to exist in, and haven't come down and out of that habit yet.) One needs about 6 months' minimum break after a normal, healthy relationship with a normal, healthy guy. But it's a whole different - LONGER - ball-game, otherwise, oh BOY is it! Because you don't just need to be clear over Why, you need even more fundamental than that - WHAT WAS IT HAPPENED AND HOW DID IT?! You, the slimed, can't feel the slime in terms of lingering remnants. You can *feel* fine again, yet not be, merely because the larger part of it has dripped or been showered off. But they can smell it, even a molecule of it.

Doubt she'll still find it hard after researching into it; she'll probably run like crazy straight into his/her office. This - getting someone to spot little spots of slime hidden in her ear creases and still coating her nostrils, etc. (again, think sharks and one single molecule of blood in the water, this is no analogy, just a parallel) - could make the difference between her finally getting shot of La-La Land and ending up happily married on-schedule or wasting decades of her love-life, and possibly her chance to ever have kids, on nasty idiots out to do nothing but take-take-take while barring/blocking all avenues for complaint/redress/change, as leaves the target 'satisfyingly' more and more on the floor each time/with each 'partner' until literally helpless. They're JUST unincarcerated mental patients wandering freely in the community, passing themselves off as sentient, empathetic humans capable of being someone else's - a Giver's - love partner. Yes, they can earn a wage (cough! - and pay taxes!!), and run (superficial) social relationships. But you let them as close in and up as a romantic or other especially mentally intimate relationship and - they ruin lives, health, bank balances, possessions, other name it. (It's Guantanamo Bay, Jim, just not as we know it.)

Nah. Counselling is for the strong, caring and capable, those who try-try-try and fix-fix-fix rather than discard. It's no more magical or complicated than borrowing someone else's brain power because it's faster and more thorough as a biological PC to network up with another 'more powerful' PC than to remain a stand-alone, trying to de-virus its own programme or applications - simple as. If *only* the messed-ups were opting for it!...then us healthies wouldn't *need* counsellors! Nope... it's a sign of a survivor with, accordingly, BRAVERY and the CLEVERNESS AND EFFICIENCY TO DELEGATE! Or does she indeed do her own tooth-drilling and filling as well? :-p

Ask her: Look at it this way: how's *not* having gone to Counselling been working out for ya so far, eh? (Game, Set, Match!)

Get Megan to help you persuade her if necessary (yeah, she'll understand).

"but that does mean me her and tom will likely to be together, in the holidays"

Ah. Any task she can do from home (or that you visit to do with her), regardless of peak customer seasons? Could you, for example, pay her to leaflet-drop (and be responsible for its design and production)? It needs to be non-taxing (and preferably involve exercise for the release of feelgood chems), anyway, certainly to start with, what with her about to 'network up' and have a lot of re-thinking to do.

"and she’s confirmed they are just friends for now and have nice talks that’s it. she rolled her eyes at me and was like ‘it not like I can bring him back home anyway, even if I wanted to’ ."

Yeah. I've heard that one before. I'll say it again: what you as "the mark" intend, think, don't think, want, don't want - including keeping it casual per se or 'for now'...means diddly squat! They are CON(fidence) artists. ART...ISTS. Talking is how they get in your jello and under your skin (empathy is the conduit). Never've said it, it's gone in...will get her aware and on the look-out, that's the main thing.

Re 'Talk About Kevin'. The book was incredible. The film, the usual total let-down in comparison (too much input by the producers and directors, even altered the plot). You can *see* the mother reacting in the most negatively self-prophesising, exacerbatory way possible to the dawning of what her child is, right before your eyes. *And* giving herself excuses in the vein of, nothing can be done anyway so best I just keep a distance as much as possible (pff). So I vote, book. Auntie will find it un-put-down-able, I'm sure.

Parents split up

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(I know you guys aren't little any more but the far-reaching principles stand.)


When a Family Man Thinks Twice
Joshua Coleman, Ph.D.
San Francisco Chronicle
June 18, 2000 (Father's Day)

You get married. And at some point you don't know if the marriage is going
to work. And since it's your first marriage, you feel discouraged and
hopeless and start believing that your marriage looks nothing like the ones
on TV or in US magazine. And you think how nice it would be to have a
marriage like that, built on friendship, hiking, and an active sex life.
And since it's a marriage with children, you don't know what it feels like
to be divorced with children, and figure it might not be that bad. It's a
tradeoff. And people say everything in life is a tradeoff, so there must be
something worthwhile about tradeoffs.

And you start thinking about it after you leave the movie theater because
your marriage once looked like the movie marriage, at least when you were
first dating. Or, maybe the movie is realistic, with lots of alienated,
confused adults, but, even those movies feature somebody who's falling in
love, like the two teenagers in American Beauty. And so you compare your
marriage to the teenagers in American Beauty and wonder how you got as far
off the track as Kevin Spacey, and do you need to get a GTO and start
smoking pot again to find yourself, even if you're smart enough to date
somebody your own age instead of your daughter's friend?

And maybe you realize that the same actors you're comparing your marriage to
on the screen, are having as much trouble in their marriages off the screen
as you are having in yours, at home. And so you stop comparing yourself to
their happy on screen marriages, and compare yourself to them as happy
divorced actors who have their kids part-time and live in LA or New York or
on their ranches in Montana.

And at the playground, watching your kids go down the slide with your wife,
you end up sitting by a divorced father. And if you've never been divorced,
you won't see his loneliness as he stretches his legs and watches and waves
at his children because he looks like you, when you wave and smile at yours
playing on the swings, or that circular spinning thing that makes you
nauseous when you have the poor judgment to get on it. And you don't see
that this very same child on the swing set saying look at me look at me will
have to be returned to her mother's house like a videotape by six because
that was the time agreed to in the agreement. And you may not know the
sadness he feels returning that child to her mother as she closes the door
to him like a vault while his kid waves, sad, bewildered or worse, happy to
be back with her mom and now oblivious of him, her father.

And you, who walk in and out of your home every day with your wife and kids,
can't know what it's like to sit in your car and watch the place you lived
in as family, knowing your child is in there, laughing, talking loudly, or
waving briefly at you from the window like she does when her uncle leaves.
And since you are married, and wake up every day to your child's loud
laughter and endless questions and requests and frustrations and hurts, you
can't contemplate the deadwood barrenness of a house deprived of that sound.
And you wouldn't know that going home to that silence, a silence you craved
many times while married, is a silence found more often on hillsides, after
a large-scale fire.

And being married, you and your wife may have just put your child to bed
with Harry Potter or the Little Engine That Could or other magical
children's stories that teach the value of never giving up and struggling
against the odds. And as the evening goes on, you end up in one of those god
awful fights with her that leave you feeling alone and why should you have
to put up with this as hard as you work and try. And it's hard to feel like
nobody else has it as bad or understands what you feel except perhaps the
woman you've begun to have an affair with who always says the right thing
and makes you feel good about yourself, which, of course, you deserve. And
the sex with the woman you're having an affair with is unbelievable because
sex is always unbelievable in affairs or else why would anybody bother?

And since you're a married father, who goes on vacations with his kids and
helps them with their soccer, homework or playground politics, you may
underestimate the feelings of seeing your child walk out of the house you
once lived in as family, holding the hand of your ex-wife's new husband.
Perhaps you're surprised by the stab of betrayal when you hear your child
refer to your ex-wife's new husband as "my other daddy." And even though
you've had enough psychotherapy to start a clinic on both coasts, you watch
yourself get mad and hurt and state that she Does not, Can not and Will not
have another daddy because that is a position only you can fill and if she
ever brings up that phrase again, something really bad is going to happen to
somebody, you're just not sure who.

And you begin to wonder if anything is worth this kind of pain. Is anything
worth having your baby, your child, your self, handed to you and ripped back
out like an assembly line robot on a killing spree, week after week after
week after week? And friends and family and professionals say it will get
better over time and it does get better because you eventually get better at
finding new and improved ways to blind and numb yourself. And people will
tell you this change is called growth. And you know that must mean growth is
highly overrated.

And you always swore you would be a great dad and you have been but you
better set your sorry ass down with divorce and give thanks for every other
weekend or summer visitation or some other version of fatherhood that has
nothing to do with family and everything to do with an arrangement so
dubious only a court can invent it. And maybe when your kids grow up and go
off to college or move out you'll feel better. But then maybe you won't.
Maybe their new independence will just free them up to see your limitations
even more clearly.

And though you would never do it, you come to understand those lost fathers,
marginalized through their own mistakes or a lousy arrangement, moving miles
away and rarely calling, leaving their kids bobbing and drifting like toys
thrown from the back of a moving boat. And how these fathers get struck
dead and dumb years later when there's an angry and betrayed call from a
child who's now a teenager or an adult. And how these dads stumble out an
excuse that tries to be an apology but ends up blaming the child and the
ex-wife, and leaves the kid glad the father wasn't around in the first place
no wonder mom wanted out.

And maybe you'd never let it get to that point and you do need to leave your
marriage. Maybe the smoking stacked years of hurt and resentment are sooting
the air you and your family breathe and no priest or rabbi or therapist can
ever reverse it because you already tried all that. And you end up falling
in love with someone new because she reminds you of all the qualities you
love best; those of your children, your closest friends and you hate to
admit it but - yeah, those of your ex-wife.

And then, whether it's the right thing or the wrong thing, better or worse,
you look back. And at some point, your kids ask when you and mom are going
to live together again. And though they eventually stop asking, they won't
stop hoping. And they carry that hope the way you carry your love for
them - soft, constant, and close to the surface. And no matter how awful it
was to be married and how grateful you are to be out, and how much getting
out was the right decision, some part of you may always wonder, was there
something else I could have done? Something?

Copyright Joshua Coleman. For reprint permission, contact Dr Coleman at:
Office and voicemail: (415) 567-2741 (PST)
Email: [e-mail address removed]

Dr. Coleman's book "Imperfect Harmony: How to Stay Married for the Sake of
Your Children and Still Be Happy," (St. Martin's Press), is available in
bookstores everywhere or order on amazon for only $16.77 at:

"Coleman isn't afraid to tell the truth: not all marriages can be joyful at all times, but
that isn't a cause for divorce, especially with children involved. Even if your marriage is never going
to be the one you dreamed of, you can still live happily ever after. With practical advice
and genuine empathy, Coleman encourages spouses to stick it out: their marriage may not
change drastically for the better, he says-but then again, it just might."

And/or, order a CD or audiotape of his 90-min workshop on this topic at 800-241-7785 for
only $15 #754-505. It's a great tape for couples (or individuals) teetering on the brink.
#754-505 - Imperfect Harmony
Joshua Coleman, PhD
Not all marriages can be made deeply meaningful or even satisfying. Learn how
to help couples achieve harmony - even happiness - in marriages that stay
together "just for the sake of the kids."

Parents split up

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PS: After printing it out - using a ruler, strike through the bits about having an affair, with one, single, continuous line - IN PENCIL. You're then saying, this bit doesn't apply to you, I realise. But he'll still be able to read it if - IF - that's what he's thinking of doing and why the carrot is too tantalisingly irresistible (at this early point). He can take what he needs and leave the rest.

As for leaving it lying around: who cares if he realises it and the past incident was a (counter-) manipulative (for the power of good for all) ploy. You can bet your a*se THAT fact won't be enough to conquer his inquisitiveness. He'll read it. Even if he claims he hasn't - he wlil have. ;-)

(Freezing cold bucket of water in the face, anyone? :-))

Parents split up

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My mum has told my dad the days he leaves to start his job is the day he leave the house and that he doesn’t not come back. I hoped he would seriously think about what happening/going to happen but he’s packing everything, which I don’t like. I casually left the print out, above on his desk just to try to get him to think about it more deeply, I really liked it, I think it will make him think.

She also said, she can guarantee he won’t be away for three days a week, it will be a whole week where he’ll leave on Monday afternoon to be there to work on tues, wed, thurs and then he won’t travel back Thursday in rush hour he’ll go back Friday and he’ll work at the surgery Friday afternoons and Saturday mornings and Monday mornings too. So it’s actually 5 and a half days of working not seeing her or us.

My dad is still not talking, i know he knows hes in the wrong, I can tell just by looking at him but he’s too stubborn to admit it. I think he’s really gone too far, I don’t think my mum will forgive him, which I think he knows. I’ve tried to tell him I wouldn’t judge etc but he’s still being aggressive and told me ‘he may as well resign from the surgery, move up near the hospital coz no one at home wants him’ . That really p*ssed me off/ upset me and my reaction towards that comment was not good . I know he said it for a reaction and he got one, I asked him if that’s what he was actually planning to do all along and he didn’t answer he isn’t went silent on me. He seems to think whatever my mum says to him, she’s speaking on my (and sibs) behalf too. I’m going to keep trying coz I don’t want him to move far away (told him that too) . I don’t think he means it.

He def feeling sorry for himself and is working out of hours all over Xmas and in between working, he’s going to a friends house coz after spending most of the day arguing about Christmas Day and how it was going to work my mum told him she didn’t want him at home. I understand what he’s done isn’t right and why my mum is really angry with him but there is a small part of me that feels bad for him and makes me feel horrible almost sorry for him. coz I still want to spend sometime with him, and I will make sure I do - even after the comments he’s made - he might even talk!

His dr lady friend - haven’t heard much more about her and I’m really hoping he won’t be staying with her in the week - coz that was the plan last time.

I will find out, my foot will be going down right after Xmas.

I did tell Tom, I just needed that day of head space, and he knew something was wrong.

My mum has some how got her own way and Tom and family are coming for Christmas Day... not sure what happened to just inviting them round for drinks?! I don’t think I was part of this conversation when Tom and my Mum were talking about it, but he seems quite chilled about so I will try to be too.


Yeah aunty has practically moved in and she’s putting her house in the market after Xmas and moving her things into storage. She has been talking more about this with cousins and thankfully they are both talking to her now not that they are for her move.


I think I have managed to convince Holly with Counselling didn’t actually take that much persuading and she says she wants me in the first meet up :-D I’m quite excited to see what it’s going to be like ... if I’m allowed to be there.

Slight problem is that she’s says she likes a boy at college when I advised the no dating I think that will be my battle, not gettin her to go to Counselling.


Hmmmm met aunties friend in the pub... she agreed to let me and Tom just happened to be there and nah, he wasn’t a hit. Might be good looking but personality wise not good, he was slimy/creepy. Not sure what aunties doing talking to him and tom told her he was creepy, did I mention he’s very honest? But I think she listened to him as to why he didn’t like him.
He kept saying things like ‘ooh. you both (aunty and me) have the same colour eyes...beautiful’ and then licked his lips, errrrrrrrrrr! And we, er don’t have the same eye colour ....thought she knew better! :-|

Parents split up

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Yes, it's a very hard-hitting article...ironically, for how 'soft' it is. It's "If Only", spelled out...pain and helplessness in-motion. It should hit the spot. But - ah!...

"My mum has told my dad the days he leaves to start his job is the day he leave the house and that he doesn’t not come back. I hoped he would seriously think about what happening/going to happen but he’s packing everything, which I don’t like."

That's not a decision, that's an ultimatum... the rightful version of 'do it and the puppy gets it!' (with him the puppy). But the trouble is, it's also an ego-challenge, if you think about it. So that explains the packing. It's, I'll see your Five and Raise you Five. Bet you any money you like, he takes a loooooooooooooooooooong time over it. Long enough to hopefully frighten her (back) (more) and thereby help her along with cracking and taking it back. (Yeeah..."don't hold yer breath, luv" :-p. Your mother no doubt knows she would lose all respect for herself, were she to back down in the face of this latest stunt.)

Give him time to come down and see sense. Most do. You just have a bit of a (yawn) wait, usually. He'll find some excuse to engage her in conversation or debate, whereupon - gosh, how did that happen! - the topic will end up turning to resurrecting the issue for another hashing-out.

She'll forgive him if he stays because he'll then have shown he *wants* to be forgiven. Or maybe if he's gone only about a week or two before backing down and apologising, etc. All depends on where your mum's line in the sand is; everyone's is different.

I still get the very strong sense that, whether for the first time or as a 'contract' update, they're fighting for what each of them see as a more suitable power division.

"‘he may as well resign from the surgery, move up near the hospital coz no one at home wants him’ . That really p*ssed me off/ upset me and my reaction towards that comment was not good . "

Fairenoughski. My own would have been a very loud, very wet, very long raspberry, prefixed with 'Aw' and suffixed with 'off'. And maybe a 'grow up, ya giant twazzock!' for good measure. He *is* being incredibly immature, isn't he. And always-always the picked-upon, despite he in fact started it *and* continued it. So that tells me he's in DefCon 2 *at least*. He could probably do with visiting one of his practise associates if he's so 'stuck' in this mindset that he believes he can't find his way out again and climb down, without ending up the 'loser' with copious egg on his face. But - more than that: In with the tone of self-pity was [wait for it] another morsel of threat to add to the pile (for thine messenger selfe to pass to his fayre maiden wyfe). So that's her upping his hand, followed by his upping his, followed by her upping hers, and him upping his. HER TURN! [rolls eyes]

(I hope and presume you *didn't* pass it onto mum? If he wants the Marmalade, he can damn well ask her himself, eh, big boy like him.)

I look forward to your foraging for more clues (or squeezing it out of him, lol - good luck with that one).

My *worry*, however, is that he's subtly allowing this feud to stay on-the-boil as his excuse to go...FOR A WHILE. That, after all, is what men who are having an affair tend to do...They deliberately cause then stoke a fight to create the excuse to visit the mistress. Do you suppose that he's so over-cocky and confident about your mum's 'desperation' to keep him that she indeed would have him back if it happened soon enough after departure? However, that's just a worry, not something that matches the actions of [1] him pack-ING (rather than packed in 5 minutes flat) and [2] upping his counter-threat ante ("make me leave and I'll..."). Those are 'please don't chuck me out for-real!' noises/movements. So I don't think much of his Poker Face, then, do you?


So did Tom et al come yesterday?

Her upping the invitation, colours the above analysis. It's an undertow message to your father to say, 'I'm SO not bothered and SO firm in my conviction this time, that I'm even capable of focusing on and functioning as-normal around the love-life of my eldest child (so take that, Mr Cocky-Pants!)'....All part of the Poker game in-play right now. Not saying, ONLY reason. Just her taking advantage of an intention that was already in existence (two for the price of one). Basically, your mum and Tom made a silent and knowing deal: I want Lily to take me and this relationship seriously in terms of being a lasting one + I want my daughter as much as possible (for her age/stage) 'settled' *and* a Poker aid / Deal! / Deal! So that's why you weren't consulted, heh-heh-heh. Never mind, if you actually objected to the idea, I'm sure you'd have made that apparent to all by now, eh (actions-actions). :-)

Mum clearly is *very* resolute, Lils. So I'm not surprised dad's desperately and frantically trying to threaten her with various implements - first a gun, then chucking that down in frustration in favour of a dagger, and so on and so forth ("aargh, none of them are working - why not?!"...Answer: because she's not a push-over any more, duuh.). I envisage him trying each one at least twice each, possibly's what your crisised idiots do. They - the normal but above-average selfish and self-important and/or self-unaware and emotionally inept - *basically*, Lily, act exactly like Narcissists (bar a few, very giveaway acts and sentiments as prove it but a temporary, situational-based state). And I don't suppose your mum's acting very attractively right now, either, in terms of how she goes about things and phrases things. So we're full-circle back to - "ding-ding, Round Two!" - A Couple Of Worked-Up Prats. She can't be blamed, though. It's too hard not to get sucked in and brought down to their level when it's something this monumentally important.

What did Tom think? Did he see through the cracks of dad's posturing shield?


Well, I'm glad to hear that Auntie's sons are calming down, anyway.

Here - are you and blister and bother the only truly sane and sorted ones, lately, or what? Or so I'm presuming. How are the sibs taking all of this? Let me guess - disgusted and disinterested in equal measure this time?


Re Holly: excellent (and she's passed a test! :-)) PS: I'm sure any worthwhile counsellor would understand Holly's nervousness and awkwardness and allow her that little luxury. If not, keeping phoning around until you find one who's more empathetic and in-tune with your ageset.

"Slight problem is that she’s says she likes a boy at college when I advised the no dating"

Remind her that she felt exactly the same way with the last creep and, again, that if