Lonely

How does one get over feeling so lonely?? It's so embarrassing to me to say but I have no school friends, no childhood friends. Nothing like that. I can't even say I have a best friend. I had 2 besties in high school but we got into a fight and the one ended our friendship which then made the other one end it as well. And during college I had friends but never stayed in contact. I always make friends but then once they leave or I leave, its over. And for 4 years, I was away a lot as I worked for a cruise line. Again I made some friends there and some I thought we would be besties forever but now nothing. I stay in contact with 2 of them. And now, I work in a older town. So a lot of the people I work with are a lot older or have families and busy with sports and kid things. So outside of work, I don't really have anyone. I have my boyfriend(which is long distance) and 2 friends from the states that I met during our time on the ships. So I am always feeling so alone. I try to tell my boyfriend this and he doesn't get it. He isn't there emotionally for me. And the 2 friends, they message me back when it suits them. But if I didn't have those 2, I really would have no one. It just makes me so sad to think about my wedding one day or just to have someone now to get coffee with or do girl trips with. I really feel like I have no one these last few months. I'm feeling so lonely. Then I start thinking am I such a terrible person that no one likes me? My boyfriend, in a fight. Already told me that I won't be able to find anyone. It just makes me wonder. Did I do something so wrong that no one wants to be in life? Am I such a terrible person? I just really wonder what I did to make no one want to stay in my life...

We are in the same shoe . I find it hard too make friends maybe because I'm a shy girl. I don't like talking and chatting in public this has been affecting me for so long hope that will change soon . I really need friends .

You are right, I do need to put myself out there. I guess I'm just waiting to go to a new city which is coming up in the next few weeks. So I kinda calmed myself down and realized that everything has a time. All will be done in time! Thank you! And yes, he wasn't healthy for me. He is gone. And Honestgurl, I understand you. Its hard to be feeling lonely but it's right, we need to go out and join some clubs. I am very shy as well. But I'm trying to branch out and put myself out there. We can do it

Aftre reading your post, I can say that I feel the same exact way most of the time. I have no friends to turn to and my boyfriend is always mean to me when I try to tell him how I'm feeling. Most of the time I think I'm just a horrible person that doesn't deserve friends. Most of the time I feel like I am meant to be alone. I journal a lot when I feel like this. It seems to help sometimes. Its hard to branch out personally. I feel so isolated all of the time and I feel like no one ever wants to take the time to get to know me or understand me. I'm tired of feeling lonely as well so I can really sympathize with you.I hope you feel better soon.

In case you three hadn't noticed, you've just met and each have a vacancy. Unfortunately, you can't swap emails on here. But at least you can all meet up on a regular basis on this thread and accompany one another on your journey from friendless to friended out in the 'real world'. Start with discussing and researching the causes and effects of loneliness? It is, after all, becoming a Western World epidemic [cue Michael Jackson's 'You Are Not Alone' - "hee-hees" optional] Plan? :-)

(Sorry, I obviously meant HONESTGURL, LEA.R and BTD816. We also have the chat room.)

I don't think there is a chat room on here . It hard for me to get in .

The chat room never work . I would love to make friends on here if possible . Someone should help me .

See the top Green banner, between Forum and Directory - says Chatroom? Let me know if you have any more difficulty. :-) Or better yet: Also on Green banner - drop-down menu "Support...Email (Technical Support)".

LEA.R, do you feel surprisingly a lot better than anticipated for having dumped this dud? Or are you still lonely but with renewed hope because of this imminent change of scene?

Soulmate, I thought I posted but it disappeared so if 2 get posted, sorry. Haha. Anyways thank you for advice and tips! The chat room is a great idea. I think I went in there once sometime back but didn't find my way around it haha. But thank you! I wish we could exchange emails because I'd totally connect with the above posters! And as for feeling surprising better after making the hard choice to leave him... I would say depending on the day or time of day. I go through the emotions and sometimes I feel so confident and great about it. Then some days I feel so sad and almost regretting it. It also doesn't help that he messages me like I'm in a mood and will get over it OR messages me like he didn't do anything and I'm overreacting. So he almost makes me feel crazy. So yes, I am in between right now. As for my move, I am so excited for the new city, new job, new place and just the next chapter of my life. So I'm trying to focus on these next big changes and not focus on the lonely aspect. I think once I get there, things will fall into place and maybe then I'll feel surprisingly a lot better. It just stings because this was suppose to be us moving. I was suppose to share this excitement with him. But everything happens for a reason.

Nope, just the one, look! :-) Re emails: Yeah, I'm sorry. We're just meanies. :-( But we have to be..."Thar be weird toypes out thar, thar be." It's our responsibility to keep you safe from even potential harm as a result of this forum. I appreciate it's pretty galling, though. But you *can* talk on here as well, if it's predominantly to discuss the topic at-hand - Loneliness (and how you in fact *don't* have to be some sad or boring and/or git to catch it; it's indiscriminate that way). But there are no rules to say you can't have more and more fun as you go?... whistling as you work? But, my - *you* sound a lot chirpier?! Is it fun in that chat-room, then? Have I been missing out on something? Is there a bar and a juke box?? LOL "I go through the emotions and sometimes I feel so confident and great about it. Then some days I feel so sad and almost regretting it." That's normal. For a relationship that was basically toxic, I mean. You realise it was, yes? As for this? : "It also doesn't help that he messages me like I'm in a mood and will get over it OR messages me like he didn't do anything and I'm overreacting. So he almost makes me feel crazy. So yes, I am in between right now." That is very deeply and majorly characteristic a hallmark of a certain 'special' type of toxic person: (..."earwigo again!") The Narcissist (Narcissistic Personality Disordered). When they keep prodding you like that, it's to keep you conveniently warm-on-the-side (through not being allowed to get over them) *and* to torture you for having dared dumped them (or beaten them to dumping or pretending to dump you). It's called Narcissistic Hoovering. Please go google 'narcissistic boyfriend', have a surfipoos and then return, if it so pleases you, for a chattipoos. I imagine you'll have an awful lot you need to say. Or maybe not. But it's helpful to at least eliminate from the enquiry, so to speak. Plus you'll be wanting to know what measures you can take to encourage (or make) him to leave you alone. Every time he prods you IT HURTS. And not just a little bit. He knows that. We all do.

I understand about the email thing. There are some weirdos out there hahaha I actually haven't tried the chat room yet! Hahaha but I'm trying to get my positive vibe back. Glad it's shining through! So, I haven't fully realized that my relationship was toxic. Still going through the ups and downs. Like yesterday, I just got an intense amount of guilt and thinking, "oh no, I did a mistake" He still messages and makes me really feel like he did nothing wrong and he doesn't understand the "crime" he did. He is now referring it to a crime. He says he didn't commit murder so how can I stay so mad? Oh I have been doing my research! Thankfully I have a very good friend that has pointed out all his red flags for months now. She has encouraged me to leave him. Said he is showing his true colours now. Told me to run. And has even sent me numerous links on narcissist personalities. Of course, you still stay because you don't believed it. Or you have this hope that things will get better. OR you try to wrap your head around the idea that, "how did he change? The first 2 years he wasn't like that?" Plus, we did do a marriage as I mentioned before on another post. It was more for paper work and getting him to Canada. Which 100% I never felt he was using me for the visa. BUT now I question his intentions because his behaviour changed and he is actually working in Canada now. BUT didn't bother to come to my town for work. I just never really admitted the marriage on here because first, he didn't respect the marriage the last few months so why should I? Second, I didn't want people to immediately say he used me for the visa. We discussed if his friend had a job then yes, let's go there and I'll move there. But that was before things hit the roof for me. He came a month earlier then he had planned and is working there. He thought this would fix us, to be 4 hours away from me. Yes, that'll fix is mate! Just hurts that he didn't come earlier for me and makes me wonder now. He also messaged and said that he has no money here and how dare I not ask him how he is and that he sent me his last money. And that if he gets frustrated here that he will leave and never return. And he said, "which I kinda of don't like here anyways" and in my head, I'm thinking, "you've been here for 3 days" So again the classic guilt trip. The news of the last word in the messages. Gah, I wish I could send you screenshots of his message. Sometimes it helps to have an outsider look in and give me a slap or two and say "you idiot. Smarten up and stay away from him" I fully agree that he has that narcissist personality. And yes i need help on how to break free from that. I try so hard to be strong in the messages but then he knows just how to hit back. Help me.

I'm so sorry to have kept you waiting, I'll be with you tomorrow or Sunday latest, but more likely tomorrow. Bear with a little longer?

Of course. Reply when you have time. Thank you though!

Lovely manners... :-) And thank-you for thanking me! LOL Right, though.... Time to buckle up, kiddo! ;-) ******************* Okay. Your 'help me' - your "I know I shouldn't but I can't help it!" mindset - tells me that you need educating in the ways of 'things that shouldn't exist but do'. Namely, what we define as by whatever degree evil. Very short and succinct - and hard-hitting - book by one of the leading experts, Adelyn Birch: "202 Ways To Spot A Psychopath'. (As a malignant narc, he may be a minor variety but that's what he is.) With any mental or personality illness, what slides the person into it, away from the Normal category, is DEGREE. Example: Normal bloke turns out to have been exaggerating his level of cleanliness and tidiness. Two years on and he's kind of draping the damp towel on the rail instead of 'hospital folding' and hanging it like before. Narc turns out to have been exaggerating his level of cleanliness and tidiness. Two years on he's gone from 'hospital folding' to....leaving it in a heap on the bathroom floor. Or in the shed. The first guy had a naturally tidy disposition - a habit - which he enhanced and played up a bit. The second never had a tidy disposition but could tell the trait was important to you so FAKED having one - so that you'd buy BASED on that con-job advert ....and then, thus bought, bit-by-bit dropped that "natural trait" back down to ...big fat zero. Exaggeration/Enhancement -v- False Mask. Complete character pretence (because if they can lie that much, it won't be the one false trait). Tell me: how would you have to deep-down feel about someone to allow yourself to say something as horrid to them as 'You're so crap that nobody but me would want you and [by intimation and logical extrapolation] I only want you because you're a habit now'? And not just say it to them, but say it when they were already in a bad, bad way...a desperate thus potentially precarious state? Isn't being in the grips of a serious angst and anxiety attack akin to hanging onto the side of a cliff with your fingertips? Isn't that exactly how it FEELS? So when he uttered, nobody else would want you, wasn't that akin to his coming over to the side of the cliff and stamping hard on your fingertips? Or at least, from stood at the bottom, yelling 'Yeah, go on, you silly b*tch - jump!'? What do we call that when it's the physical version, LEA? So - if it were you, wouldn't it have to be someone you loathed? Wouldn't you have to feel murderous toward them? Or at the very least, have literally zero thought for how they feel or THAT they feel, yet be aware cognitively that that it the LAST way to behave towards someone in that state, and why? (PS: So there's why I called him a Malignant.) ...And now that I've told you that - how eager to respond *whatsoever* to his *next* communique are you? *********** Other homework: stop googling 'narcissist' and start googling 'malignant narcissist' and 'sociopath' (try to identify him more pinpointedly; they're separate 'patients', just with myriad symptoms in-common, but with different and different degree-d agendas and aims). PPS: It's because you're *not* stupid - and *are* normal - that you got targeted by one and/or made you keep him longer than you ordinarily would have supposed. In most cases it's the most perverse form of flattery there is. As you surf more, you'll see this confirmed and explained. Parasites like Strong'uns...prime specimens. And 'only the strong get depressed'. (You can be depressed *and* strong.) You don't know yourself (yet). And you certainly don't know your own strength (yet). :-)

Lovely manners= Canadian hahaha. The stereotype is true. I had read over your comment a few times and even did the research like you had suggested. It all makes PERFECT sense. How can ONE that says they love you, ever ever EVER think to say, "you won't find anyone else" and when I brought it up over and over now that hurt. He didn't acknowledge that he did anything wrong. Until I finally ended it then he scrambled to say all the right things and to explain that his first language isn't English and he said that statement wrong. BUT I am tired of the culture card or the guy card. My mom will say, "guys are that stupid" or "but Maybe that's his culture" UM no. When I go to India, I don't pull anything. I respect the culture and adjust. So he can also do the same. And after 2 years of being "normal" and treating me how I wanted. You can't start becoming a shitty person and expect me to give you excuses. You know what I mean? I also have told him that he will never find anyone else. BUT I didn't mean it in anyway mean. I simple said "you will never find a girl that loves you as much as I do and does all this for you" I would send him care packages with 'open when' letters or love letters. Birthday packages. And all. I would take hours making and decorating. And giving my full love to these boxes just for him. And surprise him for his birthday and all. Im that person that loves hard and thinks outside of the box. But I'm tired of giving so much and never receiving that same or at least close to same love back. Anyways. That is off the track haha. I googled and looked at this malignant narc. I noticed some traits but I don't know if he fully fits there. I found so many common traits for a narc. So either way, I feel he does fit in one of those categories and it makes me so sad to think that it turned out this way. But I am trying to see the light and think better now then when we have kids. Right? I ended up replying him and just kinda kept it cool and calm. I just don't wanna hold this anger or hate anymore. I'm starting a new chapter and I don't wanna bring that negative energy with me. All though, he will always crept up. Right, isn't that what they do? He has since replied little bit. But I ignore it. And it's so hard. I have 2 coworkers that I am close too. I told them both and they both have different opinions. One says good, leave him and don't tell him that you are moving. The other one seems more like fix it, or at least tell him that you are moving. So it's hard having so many hands in the pot. I don't know what the right choice is and I'm slowly trying to put it all together. I'm trying to make choices that I think are the best. I know I'm strong and I know I can do this.

Hey lea.r (hope it's ok for me to say hi and reply) Sounds like you were a really nice, thoughtful gf :-) (I mean that in non patronising way!) and sounds like he didn't deserve what you did for him. Care package?...I want one! I might even bear that in mind one day it's a nice idea :-). Narcs are takers, they're not givers, unless there's something in it for them or their is a reasoning behind their it, I think. And Yes it's def better for any kid not to have a narc parent (my dad is a narc), so you're right there. I agree with your co worker who told you not to tel him you're moving. I'm currently at uni and my dad doesn't know which one I go to, and I feel safer somehow. And also You don't owe him anything either :-)

Hey Lily31! Of course it's fine that you come say hi and reply. I'm open and needing lots of support and advice during this hard time. So thank you so much! I mean, I'm not perfect but I for sure have a big heart that loves to give and gets so happy to make others happy. So when we were apart I would send all this. And you know. The last one, I felt he didn't appreciate it as much which i never thought until now. So yes he never did deserve them. Oh I would love to send you a care package! Haha or even like a penpal. How fun! Thanks for you advice and insight. I really appreciate it. It's just so hard having so many people voice opinions. And now my mom is on me and saying that I should tell him. I believe she thinks I'm making a mistake by leaving him. So its so hard to figure it out. I think you are right, I don't owe him anything. He's in Canada right now and hasn't asked me to come visit me. Took a job 3 hours away from me and expects me to move to him and came a month early? So why do I owe him anything? He made his choice. Why can't I? I feel so heartless because of my friend and mom now. Sigh. Well I am glad that you are able to enjoy uni without your dad interfering and making issues for it. That's stressful enough that you don't need more added on. It probably drives him nuts that he doesn't know where you are. But I'm happy that you got away from that. It's a lot to take and I couldn't imagine being around it all my life. Good for you!

Oh, thank god for you, Lily! I was going to ask if you'd step in and take over, but I didn't even have time to do that! T'is utter madness at my end at the mo - sorry LEA....I used to be a reliable poster but things have since changed and I'm fighting it...and increasingly failing (ach!). With me, it's best to think 'Not If - *When*'. I think I also need to start spelling out encouragement for other posters to continue contributing, because I think they automatically back off if I start in. (It's probably my deoderant. ;-)). LEA, oh, the language barrier/culture excuse - that old chestnut from the Get Out Of Jail Free pack of cards [rolls eyes]. If he didn't have that convenience, it'd be some other that he knew you empathised with or for whatever reason felt beholden to tolerate and forgive (poor, poor him). "And after 2 years of being "normal" and treating me how I wanted. You can't start becoming a shitty person and expect me to give you excuses. You know what I mean?" YES, I DO! We all do. I'll endeavour to contribute soon, but - mmmm,... from what I've just read, I've a sneaking feeling you two gals have quite a fair bit in common right now so it's just as well I'm over-busy. ('Everything happens for a reason', look. :-)) LEA, for now I'll leave you with this: if you're getting conflicting advice as is eroding your prior clarity and certainty, then it's probably simply that the Stay brigade don't realise what you're dealing with so are giving what might be sensible advice geared for a *normal* fella. And who could blame them - it's really hard to describe and explain! That's where keeping up the reading and learning and talking with those in the know comes in. Here's your almost-instant antidote: "Too Good To Leave/Too Bad To Stay" by Mira Kirshenbaum (available on websites). Pure genius and, perversely enough, enjoyable to read. That plus talking and comparing notes with Lily (she knows her insane onions). PS: But you can't say 'No other woman would', either, because the underlying message is still the same. I suspect that's Narc slime that you got spattered with. Is it his or someone else's who predates him? Have a thinkipoos...

I'm free most of the time at the moment, so happy to step in :-D. I'm not good at being at uni at the weekends and feeling quite lonely (I've eaten so much chocolate today out of boredom) so this is perfecto! If your mum/co worker read up on narcassistic personalty disorder, I think they'd give you different advice after, at least I hope they would! No mum or friend would want you to stay in a relationship with someone like him. I wouldn't give him no information at all, if you can help it about where you're moving to or why. You need to de-slime :-) (as soulmate mentioned you have been slimed!). You can do that by googling, reading books. Emotionally it might be a bit more harder. You might feel guilty or like you said you feel heartless when other people question you. I would say trust your instincts, often they are right.

Well thank you so so so much to you Soulmate for all the wonderful advice and being extra nice during my needy moments. I truly appreciate it all!! I will take all your advice and continue to research as i go throw this new life change. And lily31, I also can be down and lonely as well so I understand you fully. I usually Netflix most days haha. Exciting, I know. I think they are trying to be helpful but of course they don't understand fully or see the messages or know how it felt to have him say those words to me. I'm thankful for this site to find people that understand and for having one amazing long distance bestie that also dealt with a guy to this extreme. Its just sometimes so hard to type the true emotions and feelings but then it's also so hard to explain in person as well. You know? You must know what I mean. I will continue to do my research and trusting my instinct. It's just again hard because I'm that over caring person that takes everything to heart. I'm moving and starting a new job in Jan. And I honestly want to do this and see where life takes me. I'm tried of holding back and waiting for him. I waited 2 years. And now it's my time to shine. So yes, emotionally it's hard esp. When he sends those guilting messages or I have my mom/friend there making me feel worse and then I start to question, dang did i over react? But then I think about the independence I'll soon be gaining as i move out of my parents house. The joy and excitement of a new job and new city. So then I started to get giddy with joy for this new chapter. Is it wrong that I am excited to be alone and start navigating threw life? Which is odd as my post was about being lonely. But this is a new sense lonely. I guess, the people I am with and around made me feel lonely when they were suppose to lift me up. You know? Anyways, as you can see, I talk a lot as it helps me get out all my thoughts so you really don't need to reply it or else just reply about yourself. You do you and ill here to read and reply. Usually I am quick to respond so I'll do better.

Hi, You can talk as much as you like, I don't mind, and I will reply :-). I watched Netflix all weekend :-/ so this week I need to get out a bit more! Yep, I do know what you mean. People do think they're being helpful, which is fine, but you know what your relationship was like with this person, you were in it, they weren't. people think narcissism is just about someone being very vain but it's so much more then that it's an actual personalty disorder. I don't think many people have heard of it. Or I've found some people are just not interested, so it's really nice when you do meet someone who gets it. I don't go round talking about my dad but through trying to make friends at uni and getting to know each other, I've had two people say to me 'I could never stop talking to one of my parents' or 'you will forgive him, because he's your dad' and it does make you question yourself and feel guilty. It becomes harder when a narc person sends you a birthday present, or a nice text or email (my dad tried all these). It does play with your emotions. You think 'ah maybe they've thought about what they have done and want to change' - no it's all to do with manipulation. Narcs don't say sorry. But they can do weird presents! I'm a bit of a geek and I've actually written out on paper what happened with my dad, (it very theruptic!) so when I do have a moment doubt about not being in contact, I read it and puts everything back into perspective and I'm confident in what I'm doing. One thing you might want to consider doing yourself? Ohh what is your new job? It sounds like it's a good thing since you're excited about it and it sounds like you actually want to do it. There is the fear of the unknown. But I don't think there is anything wrong in wanting to be independent or living on your own. In some ways pushes you to get out and make new friends. My first week of uni I didn't know what to do, but it is about pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. Me - I've been coming onto this forum for two years now. I have my own, very long thread, 'parents split up'. It is like my own diary but I get really good advice. I met Soulmate and Scopes :-) and they have basically just supported me for the last two years. I'm now trying to give back and answer threads on here. I study counselling and psychology at uni, so it all helps go towards what I want to do career wise. My mum and dad are now getting divorced, def the right choice for my mum (and my younger bro and sis). Had a bf for two years but we're having a break from each other atm - this only happened like two weeks ago, partly why I'm feeling lonely and a bit down at the moment. But he's being an immature/insecure (I'll be polite) twit and it got really, really boring and I was becoming unhappy. Maybe we'll end up just being friends, who knows. So I think we do have quite a bit in common :-) like soulmate said. I'm hoping next year will be more calmer and less eventful!

LEA, it ceases to become hard to describe the more you read up on it (the experts who fell prey themselves, or fell prey then became experts, explain it the best because, obviously, they know both the intellectual theory *and* emotional practise, which is the entire kit 'n caboodle). If you educate yourself, here and elsewhere - yes, next year will guaranteeably be calmer. But not less eventful - more. But positive events... like sunshine slowly but steadily taking over from "dirty, disgusting weather". Having your heart broken by a toxic person isn't like a normal break-up. It hurts, etc., 10 times worse. So you need to be really good, kind and patient with yourself. The upside is that the whole recovery experience is, unbeknown to most, a secret, psychological gateway to a seriously upgraded self, like you wouldn't believe!... "the pheonix rising from the ashes"...but which expanded intellect and world you'll take in your stride once there. Interrupt or foreshorten it and you're missing out on a 'rebirth'. This isn't mere hyperbole, it's a clinical fact. The giant upside to all of this that eventually so outweighs the downsides. So you MUST do Cold Turkey (he would have rushed you into an heavily-addicted-to-them state) and stick with it. If they contact you and you slip up and respond - don't beat yourself up, think of it like one bad day on an otherwise successful diet and just ignore the mistake and carry on where you left off (and who cares what the coldhearted beep-beep thinks). Lils, you can't be friends with someone who'd treat you so disgustingly cruelly - think about it. By having dared do so, they've proven they secretly hold nothing but contempt for you - or at best, far more contempt for you than any other feeling, ever - meaning, the friendship would be just as false - and injurious - as the romance. But this time without the status-given right to complain or demand atonement. You'd just be agreeing to a demotion, from Primary Narcissistic Supply to Secondary or Tertiary (or Peripheral). And they'd be doing it purely for whatever favours and benefits or kudos-by-association to a prime specimen, a successful person, that they could still get out of you - including insulting and upsetting you and trying all manner of ways of making you jealous, insecure, etc. (because their ego gets off on seeing how "you must still be into them"). Or worse, using YOU to make their NEW "partner" (target-victim) upset and clingy (thus manipulable). Just Say No (- go google; I don't call their love-bombing interspersed with horrid treatment Honeymoon Heroin for nothing).

PS: 'His crime' is simple: Underneath the act that got you agreeing to be his long-term squeeze in the first place - he is not a nice person. Nice people wouldn't DREAM of treating their favourite person in the world so cruelly when they were already in a bad, bad way. Only [BEEP!]s would. Boom! Why does he need to even ask? Does da ignorwant wickle bubbie need an interpwetor? It's called Minimisation and Invalidation.

PPS LEA: Forgot to add: don't worry about making 'real life' physical friends at this early point. You need to have all the time in the world - preferably TOO much - to re-make friends with *yourself* (because that got lost - as far back as school from what I've read). And not too much of that, either, because paramount is doing this: "Ow, the pain, oww...Quick, quick! - I need to watch a film or something" NO! DO NOT watch a film or something. Not if truthfully the misery and anxiety isn't too overwhelming to bear. Sit and hurt. Feel it. Really feel it - feel as sh*t as you can (you won't perish - a victim doesn't fit down that tiny plughole anyway). By feeling it, all of it, you process it AWAY. Drip by drip - same as it - in its opposite format (love-bombed elatedness) - went in. But the more you embrace how horrid you feel, i.e. sit down and JUST FEEL HORRID, until it lifts (passes) all on its own, the faster the drips. That's how to recover in record time. The ONLY way. Self-distraction just shelves for another day. The only distraction that doesn't count as genuine distraction - because it's concerning your own situation and pain - is the self-educating by reading up and posting on forums with people who've walked your path and know it very well and want to save or warn others. Once you've done that day's emotional hard work session, whether that day it lasted one hour or four, THEN play and inject some fun. You'll enjoy the fun - even previously-thought fairly dull activities! - or ones you'd forgotten existed - that much more (it's not uncommon to go from the lowest depths all morning to feeling elated come evening, wanting to party by dancing to your favourite old tracks...but don't make the mistake of worrying you're bipolar, now; you're simply mentally and emotionally recovering from a spell in Guantanamo). Through this process, pretty soon you'll have re-learned how to play by yourself and enjoy it immensely, and not just enjoy it but PREFER IT to company. In that 'I'm enjoying pleasing myself' state - where it's become your new norm - THAT'S WHAT *ATTRACTS* PEOPLE TO YOU as you move around and about outside, even just nipping to your local shop for milk. We don't "make" friends, as if by conscious design and effort. Friendship happens *to* us - when we're least expecting it - when and because we're however much content and confident...which is why we weren't expecting it - our mind was on other, pleasant things. If the other person is vibe-ing and behaving a similar state - three cherries!, ker-ching, ker-ching, kerching!... :-) It's about liking, taking pride in, and enjoying yourself. Other people 'want summa that' or want to be with someone who matches them and their own 'summa that'. IOW, to qualify as friend material, you have to have the most important best friend there is or ever was: yourself. In truth, a best friend is always a SECOND best friend. But you wouldn't know that because, I suspect, growing up you were always too busy avoiding/fending off other people's issues that they would take out on you, given the chance, to naturally become your own friend, really get to know and like yourself. Here's a shortcut to liking yourself (again or for the first time): If you'd been your own squeeze - wouldn't you have thought yourself damn lucky to have had someone so sweet, kind, generous, well-meaning and loving in your life? Here's another: that 'act' he put on as had you believing he was just like you, your male counterpart. It's not an act they think up, it's them mimicking you and your expressivity, likes/dislikes, etc., etc...everything. It's called Mirroring. Back when he was NICE/LOVELY - you were actually dating and being friends with YOURSELF. So he's unwittingly and inadvertently already shown you how much you like yourself. You liked and rated yourself SO MUCH that you wanted to HAVE THE CLOSEST RELATIONSHIP THERE IS (bar kids) with you. Now learn to do it without fake him in the equation and VOILA! That's really all there is to it (well, plus time for the wounds to slowly become nothing more than faint scars).

Lily31, I am so so so sorry for the late response. I have been getting things arranged for my move and just trying to embrace all the changes that are coming up. You are so right. Not everyone understands what a narc is. They don't fully understand your situation or mine. Yes they listen but they have that judgement because they don't fully understand. So thank you for giving me those examples. It really does play with ones emotions. My ex is like your dad then. He tries to email me. Sends me flowers and says all the things I wanted to here months ago. Or tries the pity party. Which I'm sure your dad has tried! So then I really feel guilty and question my choices. I think we have a mutual understanding of each other haha. Exciting. You know I have thought about journaling and maybe not so much about him but just in general for myself and to help build myself back up. Thank you again for the suggestion. And I am glad it worked so will for you! My new job is working with a group of preschool kids in a new city. So I am excited but as it gets closer I am starting to get more emotional. Today I just told the teacher in my class that I'm moving. And tomorrow I will tell my supervisor. The kids I currently work with don't know and I feel so sad to leave them. But I'm excited and ready to open up this new chapter in my life. Like you said, it's the rest of unknown and the wondering if I am making the right choices. Time will tell and I can't wait to embrace this change and push myself out of my comfort zone. Oh wow that's a very excited but sometimes difficult career that you have chosen. All the best to your studies! I think you will do an excellent job. And hey, you are getting practice here so that's perfect for you. This forum is a big help when you need people to talk with. We definitely do have some similarities. Which makes helping each other easier. How is the ex bf situation? Any updates on that? Mine has been messaging me here and there. He is in Canada, working. Couldn't come to my town to save our relationship but could go there so makes me feel used. And now with me leaving my current job, I need to explain things to people. And they will all ask. So I just need to get over this last reminder then move on slowly. And hey, I'm here as well for those days that you are feeling lonely. Sometimes it's a shame that we can't exchange emails BUT totally understand the reasoning here.

And soulmate, thank you for the reply. I have read it a few times over. You make such perfect sense in so many ways. I have taken those days to just cry and hurt. Right now. I'm so busy cleaning. Packing and moving that I'm not letting myself fully hurt. Once I get settled there. I think I will have time to reconnect with myself and let myself hurt. Then rebuild myself. It will all come. My relationship with myself will come then I'll make friends. Everything has a time and place and I'm excited but emotional as I take this next leap. You have been such AMAZING help. And thank you so so so so much.

Definitely journal! And, EXCELLENT INSTINCTS! Not least because some people who do that, find by the end of it that they've somehow, some way, "oh my gosh!", ended up, having written A BOOK! "Without you dragging me down, I became a famous author" "PS: :-p" Now that's what you *call* Revenge. :-) Bar that snippet, I myself will be responding tomorrow or Saturday if you don't mind bearing with a little?

Now, see - that's why I've always rated Canadians. You guys are so incredibly real and down-to-earth, and sensibly pragmatic in an intelligent and graceful, rather than neurotic way, etc., etc. Just so natural, keeping it clean and simple. You're like breaths of fresh air. I also adore the fact - or so I was told by a couple of your countrymen I met on holiday - that you guys see it as completely "fair dos" to shoot any "undesirables" that break into and/or attempt to burgle your houses! :-D AND SO IT IS! What could possibly be unfair about it?! Psst!...Notice we Brits have just begun catching up with you? Our officers have started 'nudging' criminals off their motorcycles! Who'd have ever "thunk" it (or, the prison system must *really* be over-stretched!), but - RIGHT ON! That's how to instantly get public respect back! About time too. Anyway.... I really don't need to comment on or challenge any single thing you've posted; you're absolutely handling this, in my estimation are perfectly equipped TO handle it - all of it; have said ALL the right things - and then some; "I'm not worthy"; and now I rate Canadians even more. Frankly. Do me a favour, though, and check out Lily's thread to see what I've just recommended she read? I think this book would suit you AND your (in your context) sensible decision to shelve the processing and pain *a bit* whilst and due to not having any choice over it anyway. It's pure truth, served effectively yet so, so gently and soothingly. No 'buckets of water in the face' or flicking of sore nerves anywhere. So it won't over-rouse your negative emotions whereby it affects your normal daily functioning capabilities - which is what you'll need while you "can't yet". Alternatively, just keep it ready to read once you're moved in and into the new routine. Meanwhile, knowing it's there in case of an emergency will be a godsend of a mental coping tool all its own. PS: Careful not to fall in love with the author by the end of it. You can laugh, but I've heard it happens quite a lot! LOL Mainly because it's so easy to tell the guy is just downright bloody lovely. Not perfect, as in too good to be true. Just lovely. And what makes him even lovelier is he clearly doesn't even know he is. [insert Angel muzak] Feel free to keep posting for as long as you want, by the way. It's nice for visitors to see the complete Recovery path rather than just a worrying snippet. Alternatively, if you don't dare talk about it until the life-situation-change coast is clear, you can just chat with myself and Lily and anyone else who fancies a chinwag. :-)

Let me come back to every thing you have replied tomorrow. But a side note or side dish of help is needed. My ex is messaging me. Nightly. And same thing. Like this marriage/relationship is really over? Why are you making me out to be such a criminal? So of course here I am freaking out and thinking. Dang I am one dramatic piece of work I have been strong and not replying him But I feel. Should I meet him in person and end it? Should i message the same thing over? I still never told him I am moving. Here I am. Taking 20 steps back and questioning ever choice I am making now. I see his messages and think okay. He is pretty much begging me to take him back. But this is the cycle right? He will make face for some time then slowly everything will fall right? I know no body can give me the choice or tell me what is best to do. But I just need support.

Hey lea, Well done for being strong and not replying to him (Y). You're not taking steps back, I think you’re actually recognising what he’s doing and not falling for it :-). So it’s actually taking steps forward. Falling back would be replying to him, after to talk to him etc. Keep doing what you’re doing. It’s not surprising he’s doing this and It’s a horrible feeling that you feel but it’s what he wants. He wants you to feel cr*p and doubt your self. Feel guilty. Any negative feeling really. He knows your relationship has ended he’s just trying to find a way to get your attention. Just be prepared (not saying it’s def going to happen) for any else, like flowers, a present or a really nice, sweet text saying he’s sorry. It won’t be genuine. It’s all about him. Or He could turn aggressive, throwing insults and just be mean because he’s not getting the response he wants (my dad did this) and is probably used to. He could also (this is my dads fav) play the sick/ very stressed card to make you feel guilty. My dad did two things, neither work : he got his doctor work colleague/ friend to contact my mum and tell her he was coping well, and was really worried about him. He got counselling but he only went for a few weeks, after he realised none of us were concerned about him. So, If he knows any of your friends or family well enough to confine in, he could get them to feel sorry for him and then they put pressure you to talk to him. (Just be aware). He also toldmy brother he had been ill for weeks but had booked a three week holiday, long haul flight! Not that unwell if he can travel then? and apparently he has a phobia of flying but I’m not sure if I even believe that now. I still think you don’t need to tell him you’re moving and give him any information about it, if you really want to get rid of him. Don’t let him get in the way of your move and job. My ex bf wants to meet up and talk but I’ve told him no, because there is no point. there’s nothing really left to say and I can’t be bothered to listen to his excuses. What would you gain from meeting him? Thats what I’ve been asking myself and the answer is nothing. Nothing positive anyway. This weekend just gone I got rid of all his stuff (ugh, it smelled of him) and took it to his family home and I’ve blocked him. Even though that was hard and I had to force myself to do it, I know getting him out of my life will be a positive thing. The only time I might see him now is at a Xmas party but I’ve got friends to go with. Really good to know you are embracing your move and that you have that/new start to look forward to.

Thank you for the response Lily. And all I can think is dang this girl is spot on! I don't know if I should applaud you or just shake my head that we have to deal with such people in our lives. Maybe a bit of both. Not that it's a case you want to be applauding. But honestly, you responded with EXACT things that he has also tried like your dad has. So you really are gonna be a good support for me. He has already tried the flowers (which I trashed) like no, you can't send me flowers now. Close to 3 years of dating and this was your 3rd time to send because before you always had excuses as to why you couldn't send. But you could figure it out now. Just stop. Then signed by last name as his (never took his last name after the marriage, long story) but still he has to call me by his last name. And we planned in the next year or two to do the big marriage and make that name change. But I'm still just gonna treat this as a relationship and not a marriage. Is that okay? He stopped respecting it and his parents never respected it as a marriage because he didn't do the "big" wedding in India. So why should I respect it? Right? Anyways for side tracked because I have so much anger in me right now hahaha. So yes has done the flowers and the sweet messages already. The insults haven't fully come, I don't think. More the guilt messages. Which is sorta funny (not really) but after I read your response last night. I slept then woke up to a email from him. Which would slide into the last point you made. Like your dad, the sick/stressed card. His message basically said that he probably will lose his job come Feb because the owner only wants 3 people and the one guys friend is coming in Feb so his friend will get the job over him. So he will lose his job and he applied other places but no where is calling him back and he is just so frustrated. And I treat him like a big criminal. honestly I can't even deal with that statement. It drives me NUTS! And every message he brings up that word, criminal. My god. I again am being strong and not replying. In my head I'm like, if you knew this why did you try for the drivers license last week? And also am thinking, in Canada after 3 months of work, they need a good reason to let you go. So I'm thinking this isn't true. He just wants a reaction out of me. Right? And before that he did message saying he had 2 days off for Christmas and if he's coming here. And I replied with no. Sorry, you've been her for a month now and you couldn't ask me to come at all. Or bother to come see me. Or hey, take a job in my town? Or even bigger hey, get on a plane a month early for me and us, not for a job. Just a thought. But what do I know? Oh and thank you for the support and saying I am handling it well. I feel like I'm falling apart. Especially now because I move next week! I can't believe it. My room is empty. We took a big load over the weekend. And now it's just hitting me. So I might be slightly crazier these next couple of weeks lol. I still haven't mentioned anything about my move to him. And I actually removed all our Facebook posts together. Not that I use facebook any more. But I removed them. It felt kinda good. So that is the beginning of my purging him. Slowly. Wow so you got rid of all his thing? Applause to you. And good job being strong! You got this. And like you said, on your other post. I went there because soulmate said she posted about a book I should look into and I stumbled upon something you said there. It was along the lines of getting back with him but not trusting that things don't go back to the same way in a month or two. And I read that and was like dang. This girl is like me! Haha. That is exactly my fear. Yes they will say all the right things now, but come months down the road, things will go back to this. Then how do we pick ourselves up for a 2nd time? It is best to just step away. I can't deal with wondering when will the shoe fall? Am I right? And yes. Meeting him will do nothing. My friend said that he will just trap me. Which is true. I think we both are making the great choice of stepping away from our relationship. You go girl. And enjoy your Christmas party! Glad you have friends to go with. Don't stress about him.

She's good, isn't she! :-) (Heh-heh, stop blushing Lily.) You keep 'learning the dance by standing on Lily's feet as she dances' and you'll be just fine, even better than fine. As you can see - Lily's got serious willpower, she FORCES herself to do the things that go against her (slow to catch up) feelings, for the sake of long-term happiness over short-lived (but ultimately pointless) gratification. Note BOTH your idiots are saying, "Whaaat - I didn't doo nuffink! What you making such a fuss abooout?", when what they SHOULD be saying (were they healthy) is that you've got them bang-to-rights, 'please now pass sentancing so that I can start sooner rather than later, doing the work to prove it was genuinely just a blip and that I am worthy of your return to love and approval'. It's confusing because you're sat there thinking - But wouldn't a guy who did love me be chasing me too? Yes. But as respectfully, cautiously as possible - so as not to p*ss you off (because that way lies danger). You'd be more likely to hear something in the vein of: Well, you obviously need a break from me at the least so would it be okay to ring you in 2 weeks' time, please? But - every day?! Every day is this: I'm not listening to you, you don't even know what you want (and what I want trumps it); who cares what you only think you want, *I* know better than you. It's subtle, isn't it? Which is WHY so many men and women crack and go back. But the differences are there if you slow down and think of someone you've ever known with genuinely good character - or just think, what would a HEALTHY man be saying/doing? - and compare. ********* Here's another beaut of a strategy: A rap sheet. We take it with us down the thread, for instant access whenever you need it, by you updating and adding to it every so often. No particular order at first, just type here every single thing you can at this point recall, that he said or did or both, which offended, upset, traumatised you, confused you, made you feel "less than", and (which is common) had you behaving seriously out of character for you and/or in a way you weren't proud of (i.e. made you lose your normal decorum). This, by the way, is how they lower your standards. Because with that, so too lowers your expectations. Example: Well, I can't really complain because I've been doing stuff like that too, lately. See how that works? Don't trash the flowers or gifts - donate them to someone else and put a smile on their face (turn his Lemons into Lemonade). I'll start you off (amend as you see fit): - Refused me (cruelty) - itself in a nasty, uncaring way (sadism) - even one iota of any kind of emotional support when I reached a point where I was feeling seriously low. Despite knowing I had no-one else to turn to (Isolating Her). - Pretended (low empathy) never to be on my wavelength, or really couldn't get how I felt or what I meant (zero empathy). - Still is! Despite my actions say all there is to say about whether I'm serious or not! - Exaggerates the crime as a way to avoid fitting it. (And Lea, yes it was a crime - a Romantic Relationship Main One; he did the opposite of protect and thereby - for all he knew - risked your decline or knee-jerk, "beside yourself" type suicide attempt.) - Since I dumped him - keeps (deliberately, I suspect - via pretending not to 'get it') harangue-ing me as a way to keep my wounds/"his entry points" open, DESPITE my firmly indicating it's unwanted and unhelpful (disrespecting my feelings yet again). *********** He may not even want you back right this minute (time to find a replacement or extra "on-the-siders"). But you're right he wants a reaction - to gauge how long you'll stay "persuade-back-able" or possibly be a "booty call" or even long-term FWB. If they can see they can't get you back immediately, their thoughts turn to...Hmmm, what alternative use can I make out of this tool? (I suspect Tom kept putting Gobby and Lily together, somehow, was to literally duff-up two birds with one stone...conditioning Gobby to go in with very low expectations and a tolerance, and Lily to lower her stellar standards and expectations or lose him.) Also, to see whether you're best and most easily engaged via Hearts & Flowers or the challenge of an argument or your 'Mummy-Programming Achilles' being flicked. (Next time, say, 'Put a plaster on it'. ;-)) Funny how he expects YOUR emotional support to this (pretend) crisis, isn't it... hmmm... funny, that (Dual Standards & Hypocrisy).

PS: You and Lily ARE the same person. Just different faces and details. NPD belonging to whichever Cluster B illness is so over-strong a psychology that it becomes more like a personality... a film character and role. You yourself are forced into responses which forces you into a character and role, too. Different venue, basically same film and script. That's why all over the ether shop where mildly or strongly malignant Narcs are concerned, you'll read, 'Hey, you sure you weren't dating my fella/woman?!'. And you're right again: it IS harder the second time. And the third... What happens then is, things go full circle and you're back to dumping and this time meaning it. It usually takes people up to 7 attempts to leave and stay left. Not you. You've done giant actions that comprise a full 14 attempts followed by success! I don't even care if you don't realise or appreciate you, LEA. I do (and so does Lils) and I'm the vet (and she's the "Baptism Of Fire", instant vet). (Not the animal kind, the multiple, Tour of Duty, forces kind, LOL.) You ARE handling this brilliantly and are NOT falling apart (trust me, I know falling apart when I see it and, as above, it doesn't use the mouth anyway, it uses the feet). You're just panicking. Over a PRACTICAL. Overreacting, like with over-inflated self- or situation labels is part of the NPD Target Recovery process. It's called Catastrophising and is another 'old chestnut' in the target-victim's script. You're normal, you're coping, panicking a bit (like happens in life) - that's it. Are you going to try having a bit of pride in yourself in giving yourself a well-earned pat on the back? I realise for you it's probably kind of a lost art but - that's the point of Recovery: re-finding True You again and then adding all the whistles and bows that you never got a chance at all the normal times to add, but which would absolutely without question have been yours. Question: What is your happiest, most confident and sassy era and favourite dance music era? But do dictate the pace if things are getting a bit over-busy; we'll just wait for you to post and then respond. The only thing I think is pressing is the rap sheet or at least a start (with the worst), all listed for you to "snort" (your Methodoone) any time the Cold Turkey symptoms strike or get agitated by Little Mr Sunshine over there (:-p). (Little Mr Radioactive, more like.)

PS: This extract is for both of you, courtesy of the gentlewoman target-turned-expert, Annie Kaszina: "Anyone can make a genuine mistake once, maybe twice or more. However, someone who makes the same kind of “mistake” over and over again - when it is repeatedly pointed out to them - is not making mistakes. Rather, they are following a deliberate game-plan. If that “mistake-maker” make an art-form out of hurting and humiliating you, that shows conscious application not an emotional blind-spot. Instead of listening to their (sh*t)-weasel words, believe the evidence of your eyes and wounds. " I would add, most of the relationship crimes they commit don't even NEED pointing out. If you find yourself having to constantly explain to a grown man or woman how to tie their own shoelaces - RUN. It is NOT a good sign of a healthy, functional, truly grown-up. WE ALL KNOW that, no matter WHAT the problem at the time, and especially if there isn't any - you do not long-term flirt with the same woman IN FRONT OF YOUR STEADY GIRLFRIEND. And WE ALL KNOW that you do NOT kick someone (this case via cruel neglect) when they're are WORSE than merely "down". Supposedly Beavis & Butthead, there, DUUUH, DON'T KNOW DAAAT, DUUUH. Yuh, sure.

Sorry, forgot Annie's web link: http://recoverfromemotionalabuse.com/

(Lea, ignore this - I'm just bumping the thread to keep it from automatically closing.)

Blah-blah-blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.... (just bumping again, but there's a minimum character count for posting).

Oh my goodness, thank you so much for keeping this bumped. I have meant to come on and reply. Things have just gotten so busy. I should be able to give a reply later tonight or tomorrow! :-) (A) thanks again.

Hi lea, Hope your move went well and everything else is ok? Pleased to of helped but you’re doing really well. That bit you read on my thread, I think I was coming to the realisation that ex was never going to change and I was never going to be happy again with him. He was going to continue to keep implying there was something going on with him and his girl house mate. He had his last chance and even after apologising and promising to change and he messed up. There was no way I was going to let him talk his way back in. I think It’s when you don’t have that realisation and you give them more and more chances, is when you risk becoming really unhappy. Don’t know about you but I’ve def struggled with disappointment that it didn’t work out or that it didn’t end better (soulmate put it a lot better, it was spot in to how I have been feeling ) and its hard to believe I loved him or even liked him. I’m now pleased I’ve got rid of him! It’s good you’ve cut him off on fb and don’t use it anymore because that’s another way he could get to you. Keep cutting him off :-)

Lea, "Yawn" LOL Come on - hurry up. Don't you know this is painful for those of us with especially long noses? Happy New Year! (glad you're busy).

PS: " I think I was coming to the realisation that ex was never going to change and I was never going to be happy again with him" FY both your Is: It goes deeper than that. After realising they'd never want to change and, this late in the day, couldn't anyway - first, you're fixated on knowing the truth about whether (malignant) they all along were aiming to kill you from the inside-out or (benign or normal but high in natural narcissism) have that left-right brained schism as disallows forethought, self-awareness and introspection and means constantly flailing arms and legs, so to speak. Deliberate or care-less thus careless....murder or manslaughter...or as Boy George sang - 'Do you really want to hurt me?'. So before ending it, you try to find or work that out. (Wanting and needing the answer to that question, this is often why so many 'foolishly' get back into the fauxlationship.) But then, next you realise that by remaining on his radar howevermuch for the purpose of SOLVING that 'attempted murder' case, all you're achieving is yet MORE cuts and bruises (which are getting worse)....which then turns into - WHO CARES whether you're doing it on purpose or not, what difference does it make?! HURTS MORE OFTEN THAN NOT IS HURTS MORE OFTEN THAN NOT, let's just get away from this horribly injurious, stunted, high-maintenance a'hole! Suddenly, whether you fancy them or not and whether you had some lovely times together as well, is utterly immaterial; you just refuse to live like that ANY MORE. And that new attitude stands, even if you believe they CAN change....(slightly!). It'd still take FAR too many years for them to actually *become* the wonderful (or even nice, stable) person they advertised then for too long pretended to be, and, only slightly a less ridiculous amount of time in which to reach Okay-ish - and life's too short. You two - imagine having married, sprogged (and eventually divorced) these ridiculous animals...and now you're 40. Or 50. Or 60.... "Back on WHAT horse!?", you'd think. Not that what you felt (feared) would matter a jot in terms of making any difference to the pending reality (because your male counterparts likewise are older and wrinklier too plus roughly 50% co-victims, likewise spat out when they shouldn't have been), but - the fear of being 'past it', and destined to die having never known true love romantically, is soul-destroying anyway and adds significantly to your griefload. So, the moral of the story is: 'think of the starving children in Africa'. ;-)

(Bump) (...or do I mean 'nag'? LOL)

Oh my goodness!!! I feel so terrible for neglecting you both and not giving updates! But I just got my wifi last night! yes, 3 weeks with limited phone data. It was so hard. The life we have come to that we need wifi lol. Anyways soooo much to say, where to begin?!?!?! Well first, Happy New Year and hope 2019 is a great year for you both!! And second, my move went well. I am pretty much settled into my place. I love love love LOVE having my own space. I feel that independence coming back again. I just feel so proud of myself for taking such a big step and moving to a new city. So I feel so great about this. The job is kinda so so. Really missing my previous job. I do have a tour on Monday with a different work place. So might switch to another job if I feel it fits me better. now as for the ex.. His friend called me back in December to find out what was going on. My ex pretty much said, "shes not talking to me" so his friend was asking whats going on. And I said pretty much everything to his friend. His friend was so upset with my ex for treating me like that. Well anyways, his friend tried to encourage me to go back to him and I was like no. so that was that. Then my ex didn't message me for sometime, finally gave me that space that I had asked for in the beginning. BUT he is now back on the messaging and calling game. I am slightly feeling guilty because as I am in my new place, I cant help but think "he was suppose to be here during this move, we were suppose to do this together" so that aspect makes me sad. I have been strong though and haven't messaged him at all. He still doesn't think he did anything wrong. His one message was like, your mom didn't even invite me for christmas, this fight was between you and I. How can they treat me like this?? and all i thought was, your family hasn't even reached out to me. no message. nothing either. And why would my mom invite him for christmas? I dont get his thought. And him not telling his best friend anything, really makes me feel that he doesn't care what he did. He just keeps saying, still, why are you behaving like this, its been 3 months, i gave you time and ive said sorry and still nothing. So basically the same messages are coming. I sometimes feel to send one finally email, but itll never be a finally email. he will always message or find ways to make me feel guilty, right?? AND. huge confidence boost for me. Last night I was at the mall just picking up my wifi modem. I was walking past a kiosk for Telus which is a phone/internet provider here. So they were trying to sell internet and tv bundles. like a promotion team. Anyways. I usually avoid them especially because I had just picked up my wifi modem from another company haha. Anyways, I got suckered in, I am to nice. So we got talking and like chit chatted. And told him I was new here and all. He then pulls out a piece of paper from his pocket and is like "I will give you a suggestion on where you should go that my friend told me about as she has lived here her whole life" so im like "yea sure, thanks" and he then starts writing his name and number, and is like "in case you have any Telus related questions" and then writes down a cafe, and is like "this is a great cafe in downtown and its my favorite place to go" and im like okay thanks so much. and I take the paper and put it in my pocket. then we ended the talk and part ways. and All I thought was "WTF just happened?!?!?" as i walked back to my car. So a sorta confidence boost but then of course, I am over thinking it and am like, "nope, he was just being nice and clearly stated, in case I had any telus related questions so dont message. it wasnt an invite to message unless it was about the wifi" Suggestions?? Im like do I message? Ive never ever been given a phone number in person before and like I have the control now. this feels so weird to me. Anyways, what about you two? Any updates?? I feel so bad for neglecting this but thank you again for keeping it bumped! I truly appreciate this. I am just so excited for all the new adventures and I will for sure keep y'all posted on it.

No, don't feel terrible, I was only joshing! It's GOOD that you could backburn to that degree as merely a stop-gap solution to a pressing practical. If you can do that when AND ONLY WHILE you absolutely have to - genuine Pending, not insta-Archiving to avoid the workload - that is definitely a valuable, adult skill. It's simply massive delayed gratification, after all, whether or not what's delayed is pleasing or, these cases, daunting (albeit the only path to true relief of getting the chains and shackles to drop off). Aye, modern technology. Great...doesn't it? Sure, saves you time on the one hand, then takes even more time with the other. But we would be here without it so - comme ci, comme ca! "I love love love LOVE having my own space. I feel that independence coming back again. I just feel so proud of myself for taking such a big step and moving to a new city. So I feel so great about this." Well done! That's you being nice to yourself...feeding yourself healthy mind food as counteracts his past, constant, toxic spoonfuls. Shows he and his brainwashing attempts didn't really 'get in there', that you can do that - even under-fire (depressed) (artificially, note). Most long-ish term victims of either gender sound like this: "I'm sh*t and I'm too difficult and sensitive and illogical (and-and-and)". You were doing a BIT of that, weren't you? Wondering whether you had to be unlikable or something. Nope, that's him. They make out the problems they automatically present with and keep creating - and why they're neglecting you (- Covert NPD tack) - are all *somehow* your fault - because you're too this, not enough that, making a drama out of nothing. And apparently (standard statement), they HATE drama. If it's your fault, i.e. if for any reason you accept the blame or even part-blame, or even act like you have when you haven't - THEY DON'T HAVE TO CHANGE A THING about how they spoke to or acted towards you! They're allowed, doncha know. But you're not. THEY CREATED that drama they claim to hate (usually when you try to get to the bottom of the issue, i.e. hold a de-brief). So it's Normal-to-Angel 24/7 with A-hole 24/7 (because when at times they're not doing anything interactively or behaviourally in the open/on the surface, they're STILL somehow in-secret exploiting you in a meaningful, often serious way (unfair finances splits, secretly two-plus-timing...) on a routine or daily basis). It's funny, though, isn't it: there wouldn't have BEEN whatever latest drama if the roles had been reversed. The so-called drama ON THEIR PART (suddenly flying off the handle into offensiveness or getting quietly nasty) tends to start only once you PROTEST AT BEING MISTREATED OR MISPOKEN TO!, i.e. want them to explain themselves...simply because, like anyone healthy and self-respecting, you won't take being offended and insulted. Funny, that. And you can't just give a look and calmly walk off, repulsed, like you would any other person, say, out on the street, if you're trapped with the uggers, for-real, on a daily basis or even just (as in, solely) via the heartstrings on a continual basis. So you HAVE to show a reaction or you're a doormat. And even if you're Arch Angel Polite & Gentleville his/herself in how you approach them and raise or respond to their sudden (again!) nonsense - you can't win. They'll still find a way to "get upset" "at what you did/said" (i.e. they did, it hurt, you had to respond). Because it's just a cover for "shut the eff up, I'm not interested in you and how you feel/think/want/need - just me-me-me". Anyhoo!... "So might switch to another job if I feel it fits me better." Sounds like you're back to full functionality! There are still all the emotional sheets sat in the ol' pending tray, though. And they're not going to go away. And the last thing you want is for them to stay sleeping until you get with some (perfectly nice) bloke and he does something normal - and that normal something was something the ex also did - and - TRIGGER - OW! - (this time genuine) overreaction. Ever noticed how many men and women on, say, MatchDotCom say: "I'm not into blondes/brunettes/whatever hair colour, sorry. My evil ex-missus/wasband was blonde." Er.... Yeah, they breathed too. LOL You associate even those sorts of immaterials (ergo everything becomes a trigger!... in fact, it's feeling 'naked' again - closer - itself that does it) if you don't actually read through all those sheets and ensure they're filed intelligently so DON'T end up long-term holding it against any new lover because "they like carrots too and I reckon all evil bullies like carrots". I call this 'Shooting Tiddles for a Tiger' (mistaken identity just because you saw whiskers appear round the corner). It just means your wounds are still to tender to face going back onto the mating ground that, to your mind, still, potentially at least, represents a battleground, but you're creating outside excuses for it in the absence of the right awareness of what and why you're feeling (scared, nervous, wary, hyper-vigilant). You need to get to the point where you know-know-know that this is NOT how "all blokes" are or "all blokes who like carrots". Yeah, now to the ex. I was putting it off for as long as possile, actually, LOL... I'm sure the viewers at home are dying to 'watch' his particular Hoovering attempts, however. So here we go (bleugh, Slime Time)... "His friend called me back in December to find out what was going on. My ex pretty much said, "shes not talking to me" so his friend was asking whats going on. And I said pretty much everything to his friend. His friend was so upset with my ex for treating me like that. Well anyways, his friend tried to encourage me to go back to him and I was like no. so that was that. Then my ex didn't message me for sometime, finally gave me that space that I had asked for in the beginning. BUT he is now back on the messaging and calling game. I am slightly feeling guilty because as I am in my new place, I cant help but think "he was suppose to be here during this move, we were suppose to do this together" so that aspect makes me sad." 1. HIS FRIEND - oh ffs. Classic textbook, standard stuff (for an 8 year old - which he is - .... "My friend sayyysss..." - oh, grow up and stop pretending you're too nervous or cowardly-cos-you're-only-wickle! YOU MANAGED TO CHASE ME FIRST TIME ROUND LIKE A BLEEDIN' PRO, DIDN'T YOU?! Did you think I'd forgotten that?...ya tw*t). Ugh. What's any friend of his got to do with anything?! Seriously - think about how unbelievably ridiculous that is! You'll see on Lily's thread (last third) - her dad (yup, middle-aged man!) did that one. Backfired in your ex's case, though, didn't it. Crikey, even a posted letter would have elicited at least SOME respect! Or did it (backfire?)... Either [a] He under-estimated his messenger/didn't have a 'better' one to hand in the time. OR - PLEASE NOTE - [b] friend is sneaky and pretended to sympathise then take your side so as to keep you spilling more and more (loadsa intel, wheyhey!). Next time say, 'I'm very touched that you can't be happy unless he and I are reunited, however, I see no netball-court or tennis lines, nor chain-link fencing, nor asphalt,...plus I'm not wearing a school tie - AND my mate Debbie in 4B says not to listen to you - so - DO TRYYYY not to let it keep keeping you up at night, there's a dear? But you're welcome to blow his wickle nosie and wipe his wickle bum-bum, that's obviously your prerogative as, APPARENTLY, HIS DAD!!! :-p'. Or better yet, just, 'Thanks, but you weren't there the whole time and clearly, by this massive favour of yours, believe he's a nice, normal bloke, we had a nice, normal relationship, and this is "just a break-up", hence aren't a viable witness nor judge'. Or near-Acme version: "Oh hello! Well it was lovely talking to you but - must dash, bye-bye!" [click, brrr...'] Or genuine Acme: "I'm not even going to answer it because he's part of the monster's posse". Whether they prod your wounds to keep you hurting and Hoover-susceptible, or get some sucker or equally Ugh ally to prod you - prodding is prodding and adds more hurt to wounds that already hum and you can't think intelligently and make decisions that are good for you, let alone see those wounds heal, if you're in constant fore- or background pain. Avoid it, block the mere possibility of it. The fact he, a supposed adult, 'got his mate to do it' says it all (Narc) plus the fact he, a supposed adult, 'agreed to do it for his mate' - at their ages - says it all (Flying Monkey, wittingly or ignorantly collecting intel). Case Closed again. De-Slime Ointment time: I don't know many blokes over the age of 10 who'd agree to wade right into the middle of some other gf & bf relationship troubles or break-up - do you? Er - embarrassing and cringey much?! The healthy bloke would say, 'Don't be ridiculous, you can't ask me to do that?!' or 'Dun wanna get invowved, mate, leave me aat of it!'. *Scoobie Clue*, Lea. He, I suspect, "took your side" to keep you talking so as to take your temperature and coordinates for the purposes of exipoos 'win her back or half-back (before teaching her a lesson)' campaign. He's either a cooperative Narc, e.g. your ex bribed him with his Scalextric or something :-p, or the guy's been brainwashed into thinking your ex is normal and JUST FAB (because, as Bugs says, "Hee don' know him vewy wew, do he!"), which would make him a Flying Monkey of either the wannabe hero who saves the True Love day or someone who "hhhates" (pathologically envies & resents) shiny, healthy people as much or almost as much so wants you back in that compound in your apron because that's yours and b*tches/b***ards like you's PLACE!.... (not). So THAT'S WHY EVEN AFTER PRETENDING TO REALISE WHAT A MONSTER YOUR EX WAS, "FRIEND" TRIED TO PERSUADE YOU TO GO BACK INTO THE CAGE WITH THE MONSTER. Yeah, that's what I do with someone fresh from the cage who's already injured, a fact that upsets me. Try to get them to get back in for second helpings. (Pff!, do I uck.) See it now? New Mantra: Too sweet to be wholesome. Even though unwilling, you *didn't* see it. Is it easy to see? No. Not when they're chucking a zillion-and-one other thought triggers and info at you (think someone picking your pockets by getting you to hold their this and that and that...). Keeping your mind occupied. But it is easy to see when they're not or you're not the target, and when you're not however much still dizzy. Seeing your own trees is difficult even at the best of times. So it's - back up there to find the homework I set you, I'm afraid. "Soz". ;-) 2. This new and additional symptom (sending in the messenger) proves ex did NOT then finally give you that space, quote/unquote. BECAUSE THAT'S NOT SOMETHING THEY DO...that is an UN-selfish act. He switched to trying to keep spinning or re-spin ANOTHER she-plate, elsewhere, one (or more) you've never known about, meanwhile formulating a new plan of attack in his petty little "nobody dumps me!" head. When finished, he came back for another bash at it and it just so happened you got to get space meanwhile. We clear? 3. "I have been strong though and haven't messaged him at all." Yes. This bit you get massive kudos for. However, what if that call had come on a DOWN day? Then you might have believed friend was sympathetic/on your side AND listened to his persuasion to "go in for seconds". Block. 4. He still doesn't think he did anything wrong. (New classic symptom.) They can't. They've "won't-ed" for so long that now they can't (you're personality's well fixed before age 30 and too fixed even in the 20s run-up). Not without a nervous breakdown (because with that House of Cards card tumbling, so do they all!) or years of a slower breakdown followed by rebuilding in the hands of a (superhuman, super-patient) psychotherapist! 5. "His one message was like, your mom didn't even invite me for christmas," Eh? Sorry, I meant - EH? No, you don't tend to invite your child's ex over for a cosy-up at Christmas - strange we know, but... (Well, at least he's accidentally funny. :-D) Was that the only "insult that you'd given him" that he could fashion? What - no even trivial crimes on your part, had to be complete nonsense? Note, he's not even thinking in those terms. Think about you and what a kind, well-behaved person that means you are?! WHAAT? You're just a KETTLE! Are you appreciating just how they'll say absolutely ANYTHING and don't even CARE if it doesn't make sense? Really, it's just the TONE they want going in your head: "mew-mew, pout-pout..." - hurting and resentful little kid (mummy nerve goes DOINNNNG!, Ow! = you now soft-soaped). 6. "this fight was between you and I. How can they treat me like this??" How can he expect to "be treated" full-stop?! You dumped him because he made you miserable and then took every opportunity to add to it, majorly. That's all he needs to know! It's certainly all YOU need to - not know but act on. Which you did. Tell him to call you back in 80 years and you'll both take off from where you left off - sure, why not! And then he can come for Christmas. "No, really, I actually mean that". (I know -aren't I.) 7. "and all i thought was, your family hasn't even reached out to me. no message. nothing either." Ah. Was kind of hoping you'd feel as I've just 'emoted'. Hmm, definitely need that rap sheet, missus. 8. "And why would my mom invite him for christmas?" Oh - there it is (phew!) (still need the rap-sheet though - soz). "I dont get his thought." Nobody does. Except for those playground playmates who don't even know it's over, nor especially why, BECAUSE HE'S GIVEN THEM A VERSION OF EVENTS THAT UNDERPLAY THE WHOLE BEHIND-CLOSED-DOORS SITUATION AND MAKE HIM LOOK LIKE THE POOR VICTIM OR EQUAL VICTIM WHOM THEY "OH!" MUST HELP, THE POOR THING! 8. "And him not telling his best friend anything, really makes me feel that he doesn't care what he did." Yup/Snap! (Tick!) HEEEE DIDN'T DOOOOOO *NUFFINK!*, remember? Or "all he did WAS...", remember? (- for that one they change or remove the all-important context, meaning, they didn't just "hand you the umbrella a bit forcefully and it happened to blah-blah", they stabbed you with it...where you'd just had surgery... (metaphorically-speaking, although not always...but you weren't incarcerated with him so...phew). 9. "He just keeps saying, still, why are you behaving like this, its been 3 months, i gave you time and ive said sorry and still nothing. So basically the same messages are coming." And yet he refuses to take the "hint", note. (They do eventually...yawn. Just takes a lot longer than with a normal-healthy.) If you cease all contact and communication (by which I don't just mean words). He rejects your message, Lea. Because it's not his idea, what he wants, how he wants, when he wants it. They all do. "I sometimes feel to send one finally email, but itll never be a finally email. he will always message or find ways to make me feel guilty, right??" Correct, well done, and that was your final, closing sentiment so - hurrah! Conclusion: You know you don't ever again want him (tick!). But you don't know all their tricks (cross!). Hence - da rap sheet, if you please. :-) And more surfing re all the Hoovering tricks in that multitudinous (i.e. taboo-less) bag of tricks of theirs. Hmm! Maybe next text, he'll have discovered he has cancer................................no, wait, he didn't back then actually SAY Cancer, did he, he said bluh-bluh-bluh and you AUTOMATICALLY ASSUMED he meant Cancer, don't you remember, god, your memory's CRAP,...blah-blah-distracting-re-engaging-blah. (Ugh) Don't *do*. It's if you *do*. Not what you say or how/when. Just if you do. Anything. You could say Eff Off and die and it'd still be a success in their minds. It's *actions* they 'speak' and 'comprehend'. Words.... well we know what words are to them, don't we, what with that 'your mum didn't invite your ex for Xmas' (Exmas, ha-ha!) ollocks. JUST TOOLS. Not for sharing information. For being constantly one over on you and in control of you, keeping you emotional thus pliable and easily shepherded....back into the cage. Go Grey Rock. Does what it says on the tin ("hello - anyone in there?" / "no, it's just a rock" / "boring, I'm going away then" / "hurrah!"). That's him done... ************* Mr Techie Nice: TOO SOON ALERT, MWAAP-MWAAP, THIS SHIP WILL SELF-DESTRUCT IN T MINUS 10 SECONDS, MWAAP-MWAAP...!!!! Even if he *wasn't* suspiciously too nice and over-helpful, it's still too soon, so... ...Welcome to Lily's present "Friends Only (secret extra-extra-long testdrive)" world! I'll leave you two to talk, then, shall I? :-) (Glad you're finally feeling proud of yourself. And so you should be.) PS: Slimed rating: only 3 out of a possible 10.

PS: This one was the funniest, IMO: "6. "this fight was between you and I. How can they treat me like this??"" Not 'just between you and he' when it's him sending his friend in, though, note. (Sometimes I think they should rename NPD as Dual Standards & Hypocrisy Syndrome and be done with it.)

Oh, and this one: "I really care about you, I'm on your side, aww, poor you, that horrid monster.................Back in you go, then?!" LOL "I love you" (stab) "I really really do" (twist) "You b*tch, all I did was stab you a tiny bit - WHICH, YOU MADE ME! - and you DELIBERATELY squirted your blood ALL OVER MY NEW SHOES, YOU'RE *EVIL*, YOU ARE!" :-D ...shambady shtap meh!

PP(etc)S: Your rap sheet, I reckon, should basically be everything you told Mr Exmas's Little Helper. Two birds with one stone. Plan?

Darn those flying monkeys! :-P not surprised that happened one little bit. Will reply properly tomorrow

Lily, "Yawn". Yours sinczzzzzzzzz..........

Hey lea, Sorry for not replying when I said I would, I got quite busy. ex’s friend calling you up, he might of done it with all good intentions but he’s shown he really doesn't understand by asking you to reconsider going back into a relationship with ex . I’ve recently read up on ‘flying monkeys’ and they are people that need to be assertively shut down, or go tell them to read up on narcissism (if they’re are interested). You don’t have to defend or justify yourself to them either. So make it a no go conversation. If they understood narcissism they would never suggest you go back into a relationship with a narc! Bit weird how similar our life’s are at the moment, or ...maybe it’s not weird... anyway, with mr techie you could always go check out the cafe he suggested? See if he’s got good taste. if he’s there one time, then he’s there, and maybe friendship that was meant to be. At the moment I’ve got a guy friend at uni, aka Mr Dishy, who I do like quite a lot. obviously waaaaaay to early to start dating anyone and I’m very happy being single atm. He knows I fancy him, after I very drunkenly told him :-/, but that lead to him telling me his feelings are mutual but he’s not ready for a relationship. So for the moment we are getting to know each. I get to make sure he’s normal, and not a narc. I don’t think he is, but by being friends first you get to look at for any red flags first . He’s been pretty honest so far and he did me a favour by coming with me to the Xmas party, I don’t think he would of done that if he wasn’t a nice person. He’s gotta de-slime, I gotta de-slime and same for you too :-).

(*No, Lils, I've eliminated meaning well from the enquiry. 'Meaning well', after hearing how on-off (mostly on) horrid Exmas had been to her (which you don't need any specialist understanding for), would have agreed she should stay away. FAR away. This prat didn't care. His highly inappropriate response was all the evidence needed to conclude that all he cared about was achieving the mission he'd been set: to persuade her back into the cage. His loyalty was not only solely towards Exmas but also blind. ...Blind, or, worse: incapable of giving a sh*t even at a 'because she's human and no human should have to...' level. And we know what that means, don't we, children. This establishes that this Flying Monkey has equally warped attitudes and thinking.)

(And - " I don’t think he would of done that if he wasn’t a nice person." A Malignant Narc would. Unlike 'normal' players who just tell you everything you want to hear but never or moreover fail to deliver, Narcs ensure to do all the 'follow through' as well as the verbal hearts 'n flowers. Certainly the first 2 or so years, or basically however long it takes for you, the individual, to become genuinely, deeply hooked. Once hooked, you're powerless to resist or defend properly and they start to get everything their own (sick) way at your increasing expense. TIME tells. Only time. The only other way is to rush them by pretending, with your white coat and clipboard, to have fallen very quickly and deeply in-love. Just to get them to relax and feel cocksure. THEN you get to start to see them puke their toxicity all over you and every corner of your life (bleugh). But that's very risky because your 'higher' NPDs - the Sociopath and Psychopath - *literally* have a hypnotic manner, meaning, you could find yourself falling for them against your own will. SERIOUSLY. However, not only is this risky, but - it's difficult to pretend you're "truly, madly, deeply" without making moves and commitments, like moving in together (ugh). Nope - only Time and lots and lots of opportunities for them to demonstrate their intrinsic character *as a pervasive, sustained pattern*. No crystal ball, no magic wand........damnit. Just Time. Remain really skeptical. Even cynical. Secretly, to yourself. After all, he can always MELT that secret, protective, icy outer shell, can't he! Sorry to be critical, but it's important in your two's cases at this delicate stage of the proceedings to remain as suspicious and Spock-like as poss.)

I am here I am here I am here!! Sorry that I am so delayed in my responses. This 40 hours a week, 40 min drive, both ways, each day is killing me lol Such a big change from 32 hours and a 2 minute drive to work. Slowly its getting there. So work update, I did accept that other job but then turned it down and decided to stay with my current job. The pay was better and I was starting to fall in love with the kids that I take care of. However, I am having trouble with my room partner. Her english is goodish but there are moments that she doesn't get what I am saying. Which honestly, I have i have no issues with people that are english native speakers. But it just sometimes makes for a difficult convo. Plus she is very harsh and rude with me and the KIDS. Which is so hard for me because Im a quiet person and soft spoken. So its been hard to adjust with her. I am trying though. I have been documenting her passed comments and then Ill see from there. Its just been a big adjustment and I hope I wont regret turning down that other job. and first off. THANK YOU for the great advice. and Honestly, I do need to make up that rap sheet that you keep mentioning. I really need it!! He has messaged me again since we last talked and also his friend again messaged. To his friend, I talked like a friend with him. But when he started asking questions about my ex, I just said you can talk to him and I dont wanna talk about it. NOW for the ex. he messaged again. Pretty much the same old story right?? He messaged saying, the I gave you 3 months without messaging you (which he didnt) and that I told him to give him the space then I would call him. That he was waiting and waiting for my phone call. So I did cave. I messaged back. I simply put "We are DONE and if you dont know what that means than please google the word DONE. Stop messaging me now" was the basics to the email. so he of course he responded, the typical response. I can't even remember fully. But just how can I do this, how can I just end us like this and if I have someone else, just tell him. Pretty much everything he has said in all the other emails. He also said to meet him before he goes back to india. I guess he is going back even though he messaged before this saying he got this hotel job. But he kept that so secretive because he wanted me to respond asking "What Job?" but I didn't. Anyways back to his responses after my "we are done". so I didnt respond then he again messaged, "please call me. How can you do this. I know that you will forgive me. I know you dont mean all this" kinda message like that. So again, I just didnt respond. Ive been overthinking in my head about it all though. Again, questioning if I did the right thing and there are moments that I get so so so sad. I get really sad seeing babies and couples. thinking, that was suppose to be us. our future. then living in this new city and having so many indians here and many indian things around us, makes me thing that we could have built such a great life together and his parents would have been happy here. But I know I cant do this. I need to stop and I need to build that rap sheet again. I just sometimes think, did I over react?? Did I give up on someone that loved me?? 10 steps forwards, 2 steps back. Today i have taken those steps back. I know this will be ongoing and hopefully, one day, I will be "deslimed" and capable of not looking back so hard like I have been this weekend. I have my strong moments and my week moments. I am working on it, dont be too harsh on me lol. But again, Thank you both for helping me through all this. Its been a lot. I know that Lily can understand as we both know how it feels. I am happy to hear that you are doing good in your 'desliming' and that you meet someone that you fancy. Good luck with him!

Lily and Lea, Bear with me, I'm super-busy too at the mo. Should be able to post on your threads this Friday or Saturday at the very latest - either/or.

"This 40 hours a week, 40 min drive, both ways, each day is killing me" Only 40 per leg? LOL Two minute drive? You had a 2 minute drive?? Haha - ever heard of walking? I take it you're considerably more intellectual than physical then? Careful... if your Grey matter gets *too* weighty, you might topple over. LOL Seriously, though - it sounds like you need to introduce some sort of regular exercise, even if it's just bopping in your own living-room. The more physically fit and toned you become, the more an increase in brain energy and stamina as well - and the more balanced a human being you end up. By room partner, do you mean flatmate? And are the words you're looking for 'needlessly brash and aggressive'? The fact you're going as far as to keep an events diary speaks volume on that "I suspect she could be howevermuch narcissistic" score. IS that the worry? Yes Please to the rap sheet. Very next post, please. *********** "NOW for the ex. he messaged again. Pretty much the same old story right?? He messaged saying, the I gave you 3 months without messaging you (which he didnt) and that I told him to give him the space then I would call him. That he was waiting and waiting for my phone call." If responding were on the recovery agenda it would be this and only this: I gave you 3 months to put the 2 of 'I mistreated her' with the 2 of 'She's not calling me as indicated' and come up with the =4 of 'Probably, because I mistreated her, she's realised she's better off out-Amen'. That's the thing with even part-healing, isn't it. You tend to experience a change of mind. He knows that. But what he also knows is YOU HATE UNFULFILLED PROMISES. In this case that's immaterial because the You who made that 'promise' no longer exists. New You wouldn't make such a 'promise'. Put more simply as a (fantasy) response: 'Yeah, well, I changed my mind.' The reason he and friend have tried again is because the first expedition proved sufficiently successful. You gave "friend" the time of day *and* spilled your feelings and thoughts. Wait up!... "So I did cave. I messaged back." Why did you? No offence, but why are you thanking us for advice you didn't take? Didn't I advise you, just don't *do*/go Grey Rock? So why did you crack? Have you ever been on, say, a diet, Lea? Well, anyway. If you're GOING to crack like that, at least take the p*ss out of him as well as give him "the opposite of usual you"... something like: Yes, there is someone else. Me! Now f**k off, you creep. And consider yourself blocked. But it's not sensible to crack. So just make the commitment not to and garner every ounce of willpower and self-discipline. No matter who's 'on your case' / bringing you down / triggering you (flatmate) at the time. It's no good you performing impressively with how you address the details (like, not taking the 'which job?' bait) if you shouldn't be 'going there' - responding - in the first place. Because you responded this second time - he (and/or friend) will undoubtedly try again. Because "I am done" is as "I am done" *does*. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. Ever Again, Amen. You did "I am not done". Whether you'd said what you said, or just typed Bibbedy-Bobbedy-Boo. You *Did*. So that's: 1. Rap Sheet 2. Block him (and "friend" - and anyone else Mutual) across the entire gadgety board. Urgently. If you don't, you're just prolonging your return via recovery to full clarity, potential, confidence, joie de vivre, etc., etc. AND delaying the appointment of your next romantic candidate, whomever He-Improved may be. And said baby in pram. Look forwards instead of backwards. Rid yourself of this dud and it's inevitable - INEVITABLE - and in actual fact, pretty much unavoidable! - that you will meet your future, DECENT, HEALTHY, NORMAL, POINT-FILLED husband. Quicker you get on with healing by closing the door, locking it and throwing away the key - quicker you'll be ready to meet him embrace your new life. I know it's hard. But that's precisely what builds the relevant mental muscles so that NEXT TIME an idiot tries to get you alone and paralysed in order to bully you, you'll have the strength and might to self-defend immediately and appropriately. No pain, no gain, Lea. Nothing worth having in life comes free. "I need to stop and I need to build that rap sheet again. I just sometimes think, did I over react?? Did I give up on someone that loved me??" This is a standard newly-ex-Target statement, which gets widely mentioned in all the top experts' books (e.g. Lundy Bancroft's "Why Does He Do That?"). In other words - a standard symptom. Which, is not real but fools you into taking it as such. You're NOT 'SAD'. You're experiencing the sensations of getting over a Malignant Narc. After all, remember: no man that loved you, no matter how angry or this/that at the time, would have.... Rap Sheet, please. :-)

(Just bumping up to keep live again)

(Just bumping up to keep live again)

Oh btw - superb article: What to expect after leaving your narcissist and going “no contact” By Sharie Stines, Psy.D Once you finish going through the detox phase, which includes massive cravings for your narcissist, feelings of despair and emptiness (caused by a depletion of the hormone, oxytocin,) and the withdrawal phase at the beginning of going no contact, you will come to experience some positive changes in your reality. Leaving a narcissist is similar to breaking a heroin addiction. It is painful and difficult, but in the end, you get your life back. In order to get yourself through the hardest parts of the initial break, you must allow yourself to experience the discomfort and anxiety, and let yourself grieve your loss. Don’t analyze why or berate yourself for, just let yourself feel your pain and treat yourself kindly as you face the emptiness that enters your life when the narcissist and all his/her chaos leaves. At the same time, remind yourself that there will eventually be an end to your suffering. In fact, following is a list of what is gained when a person leaves a narcissist or other type of psychopath or toxic person. There are many benefits from extricating yourself from the emotional quagmire created by a narcissistic relationship: Freedom – When you can put together a string of weeks and months of going “no contact” with your abuser you will come to realize that you are now able to be yourself without someone constantly causing you to feel guilty, hurt, or ashamed. You are free. Peace – You don’t have to argue all the time, and put yourself in constant drama. Now you can have seamless conversations that aren’t loaded with convoluted meanings. You don’t have to feel confused or defensive with every human encounter. You’re finished living in a “house of pain.” Everything is as it seems – There is no more cognitive dissonance. You no longer live in a state of mind fu%$ery. You get up in the morning. Have your day. Go to bed at night. There are no hidden agendas or constant implications of your ineptitude. Everything just is. Yourself – You eventually realize that you have yourself back and that you like yourself and that you are okay just the way you are. You hold on to yourself and no longer give yourself away to others. Your Intuition – You actually pay attention to your intuition and value what it says to you. Red flags are no longer ignored or excused. If someone tries to challenge your reality, you are not swayed. Healthy Relationships – Your relationship with the narcissist was so toxic, that now you want nothing to do with toxic people or anything that resembles an unhealthy relationship. You have come to realize that you don’t need to spend time with toxic people and their enablers. You choose healthy connections over “complicated situations.” You actually have relationships that work, with people capable of validation and empathy. You can connect on a real level effortlessly. No more walking on eggshells – Your days are not spent feeling chronic unease regarding what is going to happen next or on what mood your narcissist is in. You feel lighter and less worried about everything. Anxiety dissipates. No more navigating emotional landmines – Remember those days of wondering, “What will he/she do or think if I …?” Well, you have disentangled yourself from the topography containing these land minds. You walk in a different neighborhood now – one that does not contain booby traps. Somatic symptoms disappear – These are all the physical symptoms you experienced, such as migraine headaches, stomach in knots, eczema, mysterious ailments, and the like; all were examples of how your difficult emotions and stress were being expressed. Depression is lifted – After years of narcissistic abuse you have lost yourself, dissociated from your emotions, and have been conditioned to a state of “learned helplessness.” Once you leave the toxic relationship and stop reinforcing the abusive relationship dynamic, your energy is no longer spent protecting your psyche from psychological abuse, and you find your voice, free-up your emotions, and begin to feel happy. Drama-free interactions – Surprisingly, everyone else is easier to get along with. Your relationships aren’t full of crises or turmoil. There is no longer drama in your interactions with others. Relationships just happen and they work, with no feelings of guilt or obligation on your part. It’s amazing! Empowerment – Once you realize you’re free from the opinions and manipulations of the narcissist, you find an inner strength and capacity for self-agency and self-advocacy. You have learned to set boundaries and have gotten yourself free from the narcissist’s web. This experience has taught you self-trust and personal empowerment. While you’re in a toxic relationship, you feel constantly driven to fix it and improve it, or hold out for the hope that “one day things will work;” but, that day never comes. At some point you realize that you just need to lay it down and walk away – for good. Yes, it’s hard to get to that place. In fact, that is the hardest part of the journey. After you get to that place of surrender, where you let go of any and all attempts to change the other person or repair the relationship; admit you can’t and don’t even want to try any more, then you start on a new chapter of your life – one of liberty, serenity, and joy. If you would like to receive a free copy of my monthly newsletter on The psychology of Abuse, please email me at [e-mail address removed]. Article link: https://pro.psychcentral.com/recovery-expert/2018/01/what-to-expect-after-leaving-your-narcissist-and-going-no-contact/ *********** PS Lea: want to suggest you start to focus from now on, on articles and books dealing with your COVERT Narcissist as I've had confirmation that it's your Coverts (even if they can dart to and from Overt mode) that 'send in the messenger'. Your Overts are happy to stalk alone. There are other such subtle but meaningful differences in how the two behave in a romantic relationship. E.g. yours will have been so gobsmackingly passive-aggressive that, unaided, you'd maybe need YEARS to find the words to name and describe on a rap-sheet. (Don't worry - I'll bet I can describe some for you.)

Another gem (which at this point, you need far more than the first one) - about Hoovering: ********** There is no limit to the time or the lengths that manipulators will go to in order to try to get you back under control if they are left without a supply source. Now, if you want to set yourself up for success, block the manipulator from any way of contacting you. Ideally you would be 100% No Contact. However, not everyone does this and there is a chance you might be hovered at some point. Maybe you think, oh that’s immature, it doesn’t need to come to that. Or maybe you think, I’m strong, I’m not going to contact them even if they contact me. Or maybe you feel powerful knowing that you could hear from the manipulator and know they miss you or hurting and you’re fooling yourself into thinking that you just won’t respond but there’s no need to block. Maybe you blocked the manipulator from everything and even got a new phone number yet somehow some day they either get ahold of that or find another way to contact you. Knowing what to expect from hoovering and what to do could save you from falling back into more abuse. This is usually how it goes: Test #1 — Sweetness. They usually start off all sweet and seemingly vulnerable, maybe even with a pity ploy. They’ll tell you something they know you want to hear. They’ll act like they’re sorry or they can’t live without you. In this test they try to pull on your heart strings of compassion and love. If that doesn’t work and your boundaries are solid (ie: you don’t budge in your stance, you ignore them, etc.) they will quickly shift into Test #2. Test #2 — Meanness. They’ll tell you how you’re not good enough. They’ll suddenly adopt the 180 degree point of view about something about you that they told you earlier in the relationship or even earlier in that texting conversation where they were praising you or agreeing with you and now they’re saying just the opposite. They will degrade you. They’ll show off their superiority by trying to tell you how they’re better than you somehow. They’ll often sandwich that in between phrases like “I just want the best for you” or “I am only sending you positive vibes” “I am only telling you this because I’m worried about you” and of course this will piss you off to no end or worse yet it might confuse you into believing them. If your boundaries withstand test #2, they will move on to Test #3. Test #3 — Grand Finale. This is when they go after what hurts the most. They often know what most matters to you and they will try to destroy it for you. If they know being a parent is what gives you purpose in life and how much you enjoy that, they’ll accuse you of being an awful parent and/or remind you of any failures in the past. If they know that your work is what gives your life meaning then they will tell you how you’re no good at what you do and how you’re actually hurting people instead of helping them. (Btw you can watch a narration of a real life example of that in a video from last year called Leaving the Narcissist Before the Discard). This is the part where they often fabricate stories of “everyone thinks…” or “everyone says…” about you so you feel alone and isolated, so you will doubt yourself and maybe just maybe feel that false shame or guilt that they want you to feel because in that low state you could fall back under their control. Be very careful not to internalize these messages that the manipulator is saying. This is the Grand Finale test because by now either you got the point that this person is not someone you want in your life and you’re beyond done and/or the manipulator has given up their attempts to suck you back because you’re maintaining No Contact and they must move on to a more reliable supply source. Sometimes we wait for this level of the manipulator revealing themselves so we can assure ourselves that we made the right decision to leave. 3 tests, 3 words: JUST SAY NO. No response. No reaction. No taking the bait. Block. Block. Block. If this is a co-parent, block them from texting and calling your cellphone. Give them an email address only which they can use for communication re: the kids and do not respond to any emails about anything other than the kids. The most common hoovering traps: YOU Loneliness Trying for closure Wanting to rationalize and clear things up You really want that apology You want revenge You want to show them that you’re doing fine and you’re moving on The anxiety and panic of the withdrawal is out of control and you can’t take it so you give in You feel bad, you feel responsible. You want to rescue them or care for them. You think “things will be different now.” You’re ashamed to admit things ended this way. THE MANIPULATOR SAYS/DOES “I miss you.” “You’re hurting me so much” or “You abandoned me” (or other form of guilt-trip) They give you a fake apology, they use all the right words They call you selfish or some other insult that makes you want to prove yourself. They accuse you of doing something you didn’t do. They spin a 180 degree gaslighting special about a past event, now making you the culprit. They win you over with gifts, flowers and other gestures. They finally promise you that thing you’ve been wanting (engagement, marriage, kids, moving, getting a job, doing something responsible… or maybe they finally say “i love you”) and you believe them. Keep in mind that any contact with the manipulator is capable of the rubber band effect. No matter how far you’ve come in your healing journey, all the work you’ve done, one contact from the manipulator can throw you all the way back to Ground Zero again. If you respond to a hoover, you are participating in your own demise. You might think that you’re standing up for yourself, or proving yourself, or setting the record straight but all you’re doing is feeding the manipulator and making them stronger while wasting your energy. When do they ever stop hoovering you? Usually when you call them straight out for who they are. They have to have no doubt that you’re absolutely stone cold and they are not going to get anything from you. Block them anyway even if you called them out. https://medium.com/@OwnYourReality/hoovering-how-narcissists-try-to-suck-you-back-in-fe46bc380c2c

Omg. I'm so sorry for such a late reply! Things got busy and drama filled with work. Then I forgot the password for this

Hey Lea, Oh no, to the drama bit with work...erm something happen to the rest of your post?

Ugh for some reason it cut off the rest of the post. But I am here to update you both! Let me get started.

First off where to start. So much to say here. I had some work drama where the 59 year old that I work with hates me. And was sooooo rude to me. But I feel we have turned a new leaf and things have calmed down. Thank goodness! And soulmate, I did read your last response on a time that I needed it most! My ex had been pushing these messages. He even messaged me on Linked! Can you believe? Of all the apps. He messaged there. Anyways. I have blocked him on everything. However, I still get his messages on my spam box on gmail. So lately he has been sending one a week. And update there. He has moved to a tourist town about an hour or so away from my new city. Ugh. He just keeps getting closer and closer. I have my moments still. Will those moments ever go away? But I feel overall so much better and have come to terms more and more with the choice I made. His messages don't affect me as much any more either. I just kinda read them. Send them to my bestie and we have a good laugh. Is that mean? His last message was basically how could I end this because of the mean words? I was like ummm. It was more than mean words but whatever you wanna call it. So I feel like there isn't anything big or exciting to update there. Just that I feel better! Not 100% but better. And life update. I've been busy with work. Making friends and even adopted a cute cute cute little dog. So my life is falling into place! Slowly. Anything new from either of you? Hope you both are well!

Hi Lea! Bear with? I'll try to respond to you tomorrow.

Sorry! Thought I was better but then came down with another bug! " He even messaged me on Linked! Can you believe? Of all the apps. " Yes I can. Desperate Is as Desperate Does. Not desperate for the *right* reasons, though (there's the differrence that makes all the difference). Desperation because his sick ego just can't take it (a victim that 'won't sit still' and can't be re-enslaved by - in his opinion - Oh-So-Powerful, God-like Him). "Anyways. I have blocked him on everything." Excellent recovery sign! I've been waiting for that. Why don't you want to do the rap-sheet, though? " He has moved to a tourist town about an hour or so away from my new city. Ugh. He just keeps getting closer and closer." PFF. He can't touch ya. And anyway - how do you KNOW he has? Because he said so? "Will those moments ever go away? " Absolutely, definitely, 100%! Starting now. With every passing day henceforth. Because you've blocked him. *Because you felt capable*. "I just kinda read them. Send them to my bestie and we have a good laugh. Is that mean?" Nope. It's a standard victim-survivor coping and healing mechanism, is entirely deserved and warranted, thus is medicine. It's called Disempowering Him. Your mind clearly knows what it's doing and why (tick!). If you hadn't started taking the piss, I'd have been suggesting (nagging) that you did. Here's the difference, anyway: you're not being mean. You're being mean BACK. (And not even TO him!) See it now? Feel free to get even meaner back. It's called standing up for yourself... and it doesn't even matter that he can't see or hear it. It's you doing it FOR YOU. For YOUR good health benefit. "His last message was basically how could I end this because of the mean words?" Just because of? Just because of all the verbal abuse? Like that alone isn't a reason for Instant Dismissal? Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!!! Tell him I said, thanks for the gaffaw. (Although - don't, I don't mean that literally, "obvs".) "Just that I feel better! Not 100% but better." You're still ahead of schedule. No doubt because you literally, physically got away from him as well as emotionally enough, meaning, double-pincer job. But it was still your *incredibly* difficult, survialist decision to make and take, so - well done! :-) Ha-ha... 'isn't anything big or exciting to update'? ARE YOU KIDDING? Listen, you can't GET bigger or more exciting than getting away from a parasitic predator - who, if isn't going to kill you quickly will just do it slowly over years! - in such a drastic, gung-ho way and then bouncing back in record time! Ha-ha... ya twazzock. ;-D Even you getting a little doggie (ahhh... :-)) is correct instincts. You should be *supremely* proud of yourself.