First time, I ever wished I had just gone to work

Been an overall bad day. I wanted to BBQ spiedies (pronounced speedy's, it's chunks of marinated chicken on a skewer put on Italian bread with toppings, a dish I grew up with) for dinner. Asked my wife to pick up the stuff and I would make it. She bought some cheap pre-marinated (wrong flavors) chicken on skewers. Wasn't very good. And while this is a minor thing that I can certainly get over, the day just snowballed from there. We then had to bring all of dinner over to her sisters house, because she invited them to dinner...but our house doesn't have the extra room for her family of 8. So we had to hurry up and eat there. Plus her kids (oldest is 11) were in a mood and pretty well ruined the 90 minutes we were there The reason that we had to hurry and eat, is because we do a 4th of July block party every year, hosted in our front yard. So we had to hurry home, to start making the homemade root beer and treats, then set up chairs and tables for the party. People show up and we start with the little fireworks, we save the big air born boomers for the finale. So we do the good host/hostess thing, get everyone set up with snacks/drinks and seated. Folks inevitably break into little groups with their lawn chairs so they can talk. We can finally sit down and relax. But my wife has to spend the next hour (event usually last 2-2.5 hours) catering to her sisters kids, because they are demanding attention. Due to my hectic work schedule, I have lost touch with some of my neighbors. So the few that I sat near, grabbed their chairs and moved off after about 10 minutes. So 1 hour after I sat down, I realized that nobody has said a word to me, not even my wife, and I spent the last 30 minutes playing on my phone, as the few attempts I made to talk to folks didn't really work out. Left the front yard and came inside to watch Netflix. Took 20 more minutes for anyone to even notice I was gone. Took the day off from work for this....should've just gone to work lol.

Heya! So...let's just clarify for any respondents: 1. Did your wife get the wrong items because she didn't put any effort in or because the item wasn't available and she didn't want to come back empty-handed? And if that's it, then, why didn't she simply ring you to let you know and check what substitution you wanted? 2. And is this worth a mention because it's typical of when she food-shops for you - or because it's a perfect epitomisation of what is a general, global attitude from her whenever you need any help or input? I suspect the latter, due to the fact you typed 'this is a minor thing', rather than 'this was'. If I'm correct about it being an oft-repeated frustration, then it certainly wouldn't be minor - and also would explain why it was enoough to tip your mood. 3. Excuse sarcasm, but...Was this the first time, ever, that your wife realised the house she lived in couldn't accommodate that many people all at once? I mean - why would she do that? Surely that was just a very round-the-houses way of ensuring that you guys would have to go to her sister's?....despite you had huge party prep to be getting on with? Does she manage to turn arrangements stressy and chaotic a lot? Because you sound like an organised type. 4. " Plus her kids (oldest is 11) were in a mood and pretty well ruined the 90 minutes we were there" Haven't her sister's kids been taught how to behave when you've got guests? Didn't sister- or brother-in-law tell the kid(s) off and get them to behave? 5. Do you suppose that you were giving off a, by that point, very stressy vibe and that's why people seemed to shuffle away? Or were you feeling under-appreciated even before that? Or are your neighbours just take-taking rude effers but this was the first time you properly noticed? 6. Why didn't you say anything to your wife about why people didn't seem to be making the effort with you, despite you were putting on this party for them? Or why didn't you elect to pitch in, help her out with the demanding kids? 7. Who was it that noticed you were missing?

1. My wife gets to be very disorganized and hectic when she is doing things. She seldom takes a step back to think, and is instead run by chaos. 2. This is a fairly consistent issue with her. If I am not there to slow her down, she often does things poorly because she is easily overwhelmed. 3. No, this was not the first time. And frankly, so long as we had the BBQ outside (which was my plan) we would've had room. 4. They have been taught, and they were reprimanded that day as well. Maybe I am old school, but I don't see "telling a child 6 times to stop" as an effective management technique. Maybe with 6 kids they get overwhelmed.....but then they should stop trying for more and more kids. 5. No, I was not giving off a stressed out vibe yet. I am consistently a very restrained person, and I effectively separate issues all the time. People usually don't know much about the issues I am having because I tend to keep them isolated until I am dealing with the problem directly. Unless like in this instance, they all build up and I decide it is just best to avoid the situation. 6. I didn't mention the neighbor avoidance issue, because she was busy with the kids. And I did not help with the kids for 2 reasons, firstly I was kind of done dealing with them for the day, and secondly she was trying to keep them entertained with toys and fun activities....that isn't really my wheelhouse most of the time. 7. I would guess that it was my wife's father who noticed I was missing, as I walked by him to go inside. I think he told my wife that is where I had gone.

Sorry for the wait, AKA - be with you tomorrow!

No worries. I don't expect much traffic on posts lol

Sorry, AKA, I was having connection problems and then, bam!, stopped completely (see me panic lol). All sorted now (touch wood!)... Just don't need urgent practical problems that involve running around in this heat, OMG... Anyhoo... **************** "1. My wife gets to be very disorganized and hectic when she is doing things. She seldom takes a step back to think, and is instead run by chaos." Can you elaborate and give examples of what you mean by disorganised, hectic, (impulsive?) and chaos, peas/fankoo? "2. This is a fairly consistent issue with her. If I am not there to slow her down, she often does things poorly because she is easily overwhelmed" Again - some examples and illustrations, please? "3. No, this was not the first time. And frankly, so long as we had the BBQ outside (which was my plan) we would've had room." Ah-hah. "She knew better", huh? But in ended up marring things quite considerably. Noted. Are we talking, she tends to dominate? And, you feeling as if she passive-aggressively (i.e. under even her own radar) SABOTAGES what otherwise could so easily be smooth-running incidents and events? "4. They have been taught, and they were reprimanded that day as well. Maybe I am old school, but I don't see "telling a child 6 times to stop" as an effective management technique." A-hah! No, it isn't. And the reprimander(s) HAS eyes and ears so... Isn't that reprimanding just making movements and movements and noises that ACCOMPANY their misbehaviour episodes, rather than DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT, I.E. THAT WORKS? (OMG, even I'm starting to feel frustrated with her and them now!) (Commiserations!) "Maybe with 6 kids they get overwhelmed.....but then they should stop trying for more and more kids." That sounds a bit logical for this lot, LOL. But, yes. ALBEIT...are they Catholic and can't contracept? Did you KNOW you were marrying into a family that were (especially compared to you<) disorganised, a bit lackadaisical (minus the bit bit LOL), etc, before you wed and while you were test-driving her/them? And how come you didn't manage to out-vote your wife when it came to using the garden bbq versus having to go to sister's house? "5. No, I was not giving off a stressed out vibe yet. I am consistently a very restrained person, and I effectively separate issues all the time. People usually don't know much about the issues I am having because I tend to keep them isolated until I am dealing with the problem directly. Unless like in this instance, they all build up and I decide it is just best to avoid the situation." A sort of compartmentaliser who can put their own feelings aside whilst having to get on with something and 'perform' - yes, "snap". As long as you don't bottle-up, though. ...Although, I guess this is you unbottling, huh. Wouldn't you be heard or taken seriously if you had a sit-down with your wife about all of this? E.g. you could apportion duties, so... next time it was a gathering, that would be pre-agreed as YOUR skills domain so you'd be in charge. But then the same would apply to anything your wife felt strongly about and wanted to have free rein with. Idea? "6. I didn't mention the neighbor avoidance issue, because she was busy with the kids. And I did not help with the kids for 2 reasons, firstly I was kind of done dealing with them for the day, and secondly she was trying to keep them entertained with toys and fun activities....that isn't really my wheelhouse most of the time." Right, so we can't give them the benefit of the doubt over your vibe, because you'd literally put in a mental drawer and are comfortable about the fact people literally can't detect anything when you do that/that happens... Well, in that case, your neighbours are bloody rude freeloaders, aren't they? Or (think back carefully), would you say their behaviour fit with having been told something unflattering about you...bit of gossip or something? I'm just trying to work out how the neighbours could be so rude - but seemingly ONLY to YOU. And DESPITE you were one half of the Benefactor (you and the missus paid for it all). See what I'm saying? Either they were having too much fun to NOTICE you were sat on your tod for ages, or they did and for some strange reason, didn't care. Weird. What do YOU, hand-on-heart, feel it was all about? Be as seemingly-"paranoid" or -"persecution-complexed" as you like. Just try suspicions on for size, both innocent and not-so-innocent, and see which one sticks. You have emotional distance thus clearer viewing and thinking ability by now, so that should have eliminated any mental fluff and red-herrings? I mean, ACTUALLY GRABBING AND WALKING OFF WITH THEIR CHAIR? Despite not an immediate move - doing that presents to me as somewhat SNUBBING - doesn't it you? But again, it could be gross self-absorption and/or a compassion deficit. I mean, if you'd lost touch then surely you would have held more novelty value than the other neighbours in terms of a meaty catch-up? Did you try to engage them in conversation at first? How did that go? "7. I would guess that it was my wife's father who noticed I was missing, as I walked by him to go inside. I think he told my wife that is where I had gone." Well, if he told your wife then, she asked, hence, she was the one who noticed - yes?

PS: I'm available to post this evening...not tomorrow at all...then Wednesday by nighttime latest...and then probably not again until the weekend. Well, those are my plans, anyway...I'm sure Life must have some other detritus or bloody boulder to drop onto my progress path because that seems to be the way of post Brexit and Covid things, lately (grumble-grumble). ...Although, by saying that, hopefully I might have reverse-jinxed myself....sometimes works LOL.

Sorry for the late reply. Work has been a bit hectic. 1&2. Examples of her being easily overwhelmed are common, but oddly I can't pick a specific time as it is a regular occurrence. But the symptoms are always the same. It's like she suddenly thinks that she needs to accomplish every detail. So she'll try accomplishing it all, without talking to anyone or asking for help, and because she is overwhelmed she tends to take the long way to do things, or do them in the wrong order. 3. I would not say that she dominates. She just tends to not talk to people that are involved in the process. If I call her out on it, she is quick to remedy her behavior. 4. They do have religious beliefs about having large families, but nothing that prevents them from using birth control methods. They just want more and more kids. As for knowing about her family's disorganization and lackadaisical traits. I was aware of that, but I am the man of the house and I was willing to put in the work to get our marriage into a better place, if necessary. Unfortunately, we ended up having her Dad live with us after his wife passed, and I don't feel like it is my place to encroach on their combined behaviors. Her, I talk to about things but she goes right back to the bad behavior around him. 5. I have sat down and talked to her about things, but she is a very slow person to make changes in her behaviors/actions. It has taken me years to get her to stop trying to be a people pleaser towards everyone, because of how much time it took away from our marriage. 6. I honestly have no idea, why they moved away. I spend so much time at work anymore, that I rarely spend time with any of my neighbors. But I always try to help out if I see a need. This particular couple, got their car stuck at about 6am in the snow one winter day, still dark out. I was outside cleaning off my wifes car and warming it up when I noticed. Without a second thought I walked over and pushed their car back up in the driveway. Never needed to be asked and never needed thanks. It's just what you do for your neighbors. Even in my paranoid schemes, I can't come up with a reason. Unless maybe they witnessed some behavior from my household/sis in laws household (they live a block away and visit frequently) that they didn't like and were avoiding me out of an awkward feeling. 7. I really can't say if she asked him, or he went and told her. I was finally starting to show my irritation when I went inside, so he may have picked up on that and told her.

I might not really be adding much here, but I think in general things rarely go the way we want them to in life. We're at the mercy of a variety of factors, and it's hard to predict how an outing, especially a family event, will turn out. Looking on the bright side of the situation here, you have a wife and you have someone to spend the Holiday with. For some people there is no partner in their life, and no family or friends available for gatherings. And even if their kid was in a mood when you went to eat, it doesn't sound like the situation was ideal for eating to begin with, and anyone could get into a mood since that's a part of life. Your neighbors, well if they're going to avoid you because you haven't talked in a while that seems kind of petty. I'd say it's more likely that you were already feeling negative from the events of the day, and viewed that as being what happened. It sucks that everyone divided up into little cliques instead of staying as a group, but once again things don't always go just as you envision them. Your wife sees you every day, but not the neighbor kids. So she probably either wanted to see them or felt she was expected to interact with them. You got to make homemade root beer, you got to see some fireworks, your wife went out and bought groceries for you to grill even if that didn't go according to plan, and you even got to watch a little Netflix. Sometimes the victories aren't that great, but you gotta appreciate the little wins. This wasn't a day that was a 100% downward spiral for you, it was just not ideal. And, at least the day is behind you. Maybe you can find a way to make your next Holiday gathering a little more in your favor, perhaps by buying something to grill in the Fall beforehand, or making the root beer on another day and saving it so that way even if it isn't fresh, it's still a time-saver. To a lot of people, Independence Day is just another day. At least it is more than that for you and your loved ones.

@Balance. I can honestly say, that I wish my day could've been characterized as "just not ideal". It was drama from the moment I woke up, and I would have preferred to be at work lol. At least I would have gotten paid then (and probably had less stress).

Backatcha with the lateness apology. Had bloody technical problems (again)...and no help for days because it's (yet) another fiesta!...yayy!...NOT. Anyway, now I've lost my window so I'll have to try to find another in the next day or two. Bear with...

Aka, Again - apologies for the wait and cheers for your patience! "I can honestly say, that I wish my day could've been characterized as "just not ideal". It was drama from the moment I woke up, and I would have preferred to be at work lol. At least I would have gotten paid then (and probably had less stress)." Yes, and it's saying something when you feel you'd have had a better day if you'd gone into the sodding office (scuse French). *********************************************************************************************************************************** "1&2. Examples of her being easily overwhelmed are common, but oddly I can't pick a specific time as it is a regular occurrence. But the symptoms are always the same. It's like she suddenly thinks that she needs to accomplish every detail. So she'll try accomplishing it all, without talking to anyone or asking for help, and because she is overwhelmed she tends to take the long way to do things, or do them in the wrong order. 3. I would not say that she dominates. She just tends to not talk to people that are involved in the process. If I call her out on it, she is quick to remedy her behavior. ******** 4. They do have religious beliefs about having large families, but nothing that prevents them from using birth control methods. They just want more and more kids. ******** (4b.) "As for knowing about her family's disorganization and lackadaisical traits. I was aware of that, but I am the man of the house and I was willing to put in the work to get our marriage into a better place, if necessary. Unfortunately, we ended up having her Dad live with us after his wife passed, and I don't feel like it is my place to encroach on their combined behaviors. Her, I talk to about things but she goes right back to the bad behavior around him. ******** 5. I have sat down and talked to her about things, but she is a very slow person to make changes in her behaviors/actions. It has taken me years to get her to stop trying to be a people pleaser towards everyone, because of how much time it took away from our marriage. ******** 6. I honestly have no idea, why they moved away. I spend so much time at work anymore, that I rarely spend time with any of my neighbors. But I always try to help out if I see a need. This particular couple, got their car stuck at about 6am in the snow one winter day, still dark out. I was outside cleaning off my wifes car and warming it up when I noticed. Without a second thought I walked over and pushed their car back up in the driveway. Never needed to be asked and never needed thanks. It's just what you do for your neighbors. Even in my paranoid schemes, I can't come up with a reason. Unless maybe they witnessed some behavior from my household/sis in laws household (they live a block away and visit frequently) that they didn't like and were avoiding me out of an awkward feeling. ******** 7. I really can't say if she asked him, or he went and told her. I was finally starting to show my irritation when I went inside, so he may have picked up on that and told her." ************ POINTS 1, 2 + 3: As if you, AKA - and now I - were expected to believe she suffered from some sort or other of learning difficulty (or was a Goldfish) - 1. your wife, DESPITE her methodology has proven...consistently....time and time again...to FAIL to yield the objective she claims to want (and cites as her reason for doing so each time - i.e. doing the whole shebang single-handedly and "killing it"), 2. not only FORGETS the very last occasion 3. AND ALL PRIOR occasions, note(!), 4. when (and despite) you'd had to pull her up over it and she'd immediately had to adjust her attitude/approach 5. and therefore (HAVING forgotten) - come the next time, defaults all over again to Queen Bee attitude, (6. instead of operating like a married/'married' couple - i.e. TEAM - which is what you naturally expect). Really - seriously? Then, Houston, you have a problem. But she does not behave as the dominant, you reckon. Noted. (That does not, however, exclude domineering (verb). But let's see (am formatting first, reading after...) POINT 4: Wouldn't "just wanting more" make them the definition (perhaps epitomy) of Socially Irresponsible? Do they get financial help from the govt/state? POINT 4b: Sounds like you've had your status and personal agency diluted by the arrival of her dad - yes? Is that a natural result of another Alpha Male entering the house or a consequence of how he - and/or he and she - have been acting and behaving? E.g. he and she getting to OUT-VOTE you? Does Dada not appreciate that he is merely a GUEST IN YOURS AND HER HOUSE? And that, therefore, he doesn't GET a vote where concerns yours and her social life AT WHICH HE IS A GUEST? Or is this man contributing financially to your mortgate/living expenses? A better place to enhance the relationship or fix it? If the former - why and in what ways did it need enhancing? If the latter - what happened, and when? How is it NOT your place if you're the man of the house? PS: hypothetical: Do you suppose she's trying to impress her dad every time she (tries but fails to) solely executes a task/project? POINT 5: Who's 'everyone'? How much time did it take away from your marriage? DOES she have a learning difficulty? POINT 6: I agree. I didn't realise these neighbours were no longer neighbours, had moved away. Has your wife been keeping in regular contact ever since? Re. what you said about yours/in-laws' households maybe: In that case, why feel awkward towards and avoid only YOU, though? Why not your wife (and FIL) as well? What sort of "some behaviour" at either household are we talking about, anyway? By the way, though: she IS behaving dominant, in one detectable way, anyway, if you think about it. She dominates tasks/projects. Completely and utterly. Oh, and, albeit that it relies on a comrad, she ALSO dominates you by effectively endowing herself with automatically TWO marital votes despite she's only one of two owner-partners in da house. I know it's so subtle and seemingly passive as to be Ambient, but - see it now? You're being dominated by a duo (and, if you ask me, by failing to take on board your task-intervention/rescue, a repeated show of passive-aggressiveness). Either purely by default of her father having moved in, or possibly by design (but maybe only as in, the side-bonus occurred to her) - your one partner has silently, wordlessly, become a duo to your solo...Two against One. He could decide to keep out of all such contentions up for the vote, of course - yes? That would be the right thing to do AS WELL AS a befitting show of gratitude and appreciation for your having agreed to take him in? Or was she already like this (hoarding tasks, getting to out-vote you over the bbq venue for example) long before he moved in? IF NOT... Can you think of any reason why she might have felt she'd needed the side bonus of helping her dad, of two against one?...by which I mean, is it really two or was she aiming to measure up to, i.e. equalise with you and your natural forcefulness of, say, one-and-a-half person, but the added ingredient proved heavier than expected, leaving it as Two Against One-and-a-Half? POINT 7: Would you say FIL means well but is getting over-involved?

...And is there room at the bottom of your garden for a timber guest chalet?

...At least, I HOPE it's Passive-Aggressiveness (which means, doesn't register on her own radar, consciously unaware), or else, that leaves only Camoflaged.

So there has actually been a blow up 2 days ago. I decided to just do whatever I wanted done, and to not involve anyone else. I started by throwing out some things that had been left around as clutter. Things that haven't been used in at least a year. My wife observed what I was doing and seemed to know better than to say anything about it, as I was obviously not in the mood for an argument. She even got up and started cleaning another area, throwing out a fair amount of clutter. Later, she wanted to talk as she noticed I had been distant. And I was distant, I was fuming about the clutter in the house and the lack of respect she has shown me in the last week. I'm not going to go into specifics, but she was basically doing whatever she wanted and shutting me down when I tried to get involved. During our conversation, we seemed to reach an understanding (hopefully it sticks). I explained to her that if the previous behavior was going to be the new normal, I was going to treat everyone else in the household like a roommate. And I was going to clean/throw out whatever I wanted, as I am the man of the house. She didn't want that to take place. So she has started treating me better, and doing more to keep us as equals and partners. She knows that I am keeping a close eye on everything, and that I won't back down this time as I have had enough. Now. Onto the key points of your previous post. Point 4. Nobody in the house is on Gov't assistance. My wife actually has a pretty good paying job that she does from her home office. My FIL is retired and living off his retirement benefits. Point 4b. No, it is not an alpha male thing. He has braced me once, and immediately realized that I would put him down. I am not a bully, but I refuse to back down to anyone. We have gotten along fairly well. Point 5. Neighbors, friends, church acquaintances etc. And no, she doesn't have a learning disability. She has a 4 year college degree and works as an accountant for the state. I would say more absent-minded. Point 6. The neighbors are still neighbors. I was referring to them moving their chairs away from me. As for her hoarding and lackadaisical behavior, she was like that when we were dating. I know she can be different though, because when we first got married we lived alone for a couple years. Our house was humble but clean and tidy from both of us doing the work. I think it is just easy to revert to her previous behavior when her Dad is around, he doesn't really encourage it. I think maybe his laziness feeds her laziness. You were wondering about room at the bottom of our garden for a chalet. We don't really have room for that, especially considering that I am getting ready to prep our backyard and turn the whole thing into a garden. With the current cost of food going higher and higher, I have decided we need to prep for a much larger garden next year.

"So there has actually been a blow up 2 days ago. I decided to just do whatever I wanted done, and to not involve anyone else. I started by throwing out some things that had been left around as clutter. Things that haven't been used in at least a year." Uh-oh...! So what you're actually saying is - you blew a gasket and mounted a rebellion. "My wife observed what I was doing and seemed to know better than to say anything about it, as I was obviously not in the mood for an argument." Cheers for the mental picture, lol. "She even got up and started cleaning another area, throwing out a fair amount of clutter." Interesting! "Later, she wanted to talk as she noticed I had been distant. And I was distant, I was fuming about the clutter in the house and the lack of respect she has shown me in the last week. I'm not going to go into specifics, but she was basically doing whatever she wanted and shutting me down when I tried to get involved." Well, that's healthy of her, anyway. Question: did she just beat you to it? Would you have asked for a sit-down, eventually? Oh, it's been going on far longer than the last week, let's face it. You don't need to go into specifics - "I see dead people". (LOL) Dad moved in and she suddenly got all cocky, eh. What we want to know is, WHY. "(hopefully it sticks)" So this isn't the first time you've verbally lodged this complaint, then? "I explained to her that if the previous behavior was going to be the new normal, I was going to treat everyone else in the household like a roommate." You mean, treat them like a roommate BACK. (Sounds like pedantry, but it's important to describe these things correctly and precisely...there's a huge difference between treat and treat back.) "And I was going to clean/throw out whatever I wanted, as I am the man of the house." Yeeeaaaah....you've muddied your own water there. You're saying you're going to throw-out what you want because you're the man of the house but at the same time throwing-out what you want because you're reverting to how you're being treated - a mere housemate. Er.... Never mind, I think the fact you were clearing decks with a certain intensity and aggression was what counted. Normally, I'd be saying, 'Didn't we think to use our words instead?', only, if you're hoping this time it'll stick, then, I guess the time for words had long gone. "She knows that I am keeping a close eye on everything, and that I won't back down this time as I have had enough." GOOD! That's all it takes. Well, that and the other person being willing to make their own shift in line with the new, more assertive you. Yeah, I'll be watching this space with you, methinks. Something about this doesn't fill me with massive hope. Emphasis on massive, though. "Point 4. Nobody in the house is on Gov't assistance. My wife actually has a pretty good paying job that she does from her home office. My FIL is retired and living off his retirement benefits." No, I was referring to the over-sproggers. "He has braced me once, and immediately realized that I would put him down. " What does braced you mean? I've never heard that expression? No, I know you're not a bully. And now you've said that, I also know you're a bit of a sucker for guilt. :-) (That's a strength, btw....in the hands of the right recipient, anyway). You forgot to answer this one: "PS: hypothetical: Do you suppose she's trying to impress her dad every time she (tries but fails to) solely executes a task/project?" I rather think that being absent-minded may as well be a learning disability, don't you?...albeit it's pf a temporary, circumstantial nature? Is she trying to do too much? (...and refer to above unanswered question). I didn't know, until now, that she's a hoarder. Hoarder or someone who just never makes the time to de-clutter? "I know she can be different though, because when we first got married we lived alone for a couple years. Our house was humble but clean and tidy from both of us doing the work. I think it is just easy to revert to her previous behavior when her Dad is around, he doesn't really encourage it. I think maybe his laziness feeds her laziness." Ok, forget above question - you've just answered it. The woman has bitten off more than she can chew. She's been trying to meet your level and standard for order and cleanliness, but not really succeeding (heart not in it). Then she gets the moral support-boost of one of her posse moving in (dad) and - PLEUGH...she effectively starts to down Standards tools and flying by the seat of her pants/making it by the skin of her teeth...defaulting under pressure and said confidence boost, to pre-marital, family behaviour. Haphazard and "f**k-it, that'll do". (I can't work the neighbours out - other than, thoughtless and inconsiderate...and right at the wrong moment on the wrong day, making it the straw that broke the camel's back.) In what ways is he lazy? And do you know if it got on his late wife's nerves as well? Roger the garden. When exactly did FIL move in? And what are we talking when we say lazy? Not taking coffee cups back to the kitchen, not picking up after himself, generally? His room like a bomb's hit it? A Mr "In A Minute!" Man when it comes to household chores that are now his (I take it he has to pitch in)?

What I mean by the FIL is lazy, is that he very rarely gets out of bed even though he is actually pretty fit from his previous work. He doesn't do anything unless he absolutely has to. The majority of his day is spent laying in bed, watching TV and playing on his phone. Easily 80% of his day on the average day. And yes, it drove his wife absolutely bonkers with how lazy he was. It got to the point that she just started doing everything by herself, as it took too much effort to get him to help. We have all lived together for about 10 years. His room is cluttered, lots of stuff in it. Organized in a way to permit movement, but many things in there that don't need to be. Like dvd's and vhs tapes, all with a layer of dust on them. Bracing someone: when someone gets aggressive and in your face while yelling at you or berating you. And, no. I don't see her lazy behavior as trying to please her dad. As he doesn't really care about things along that line. As for hoping this sticks, we will see soon. I work every other weekend, and this weekend was a work weekend. So when I get Tues. off, I will be moving forward and doing more cleanup and she will be expected to help. I hate having to push her into this, as it feels like bullying, but at this point I feel like I also need to take the lead and get us moving in the right direction.

In reference to "hopefully this time it sticks", yes we have had this conversation many times.

I think I get it. Houston, we have a tug-of-war going on here, between a functional adult male and a less- or (now his wife's influence is gone) non-functional. Over a woman, who's getting pulled towards whomever is dominant (think metal to magnet). Said women, as a caretaker cog in the grand machine, is doing what Terrence Real proved they unthinkingly, automatically do in relationships with men who have an issue or deficit or whatever....to make them feel more functional, basically. By taking away any contrast between he and she as could bring into sharp relief (think Anoretic stood beside Obese person in a communal changing room) any 'superiority' she possessses. She basically feels responsible for making him feel less bad about himself. E.g. non alcohol drinking woman marries heavy drinking male (forming a society of two) and before long is matching his intake ("no-one with drinking problems in this little circle, look!"). It can work the other way, though. If the bloke is really functional, more so than her, and she aspires to his level, she can choose to stretch up to it, adopt his way(s). It depends on the degree to which she stands on her tiptoes, however. If she stretches too tall she's easily toppled and has to keep taking breaks back on the balls of her feet (picturing it?). But it does sound as if your wife is being, or letting herself be, pulled back and forth...but less so in your direction, lately. Is she still grieving for her mum? Is she more pulled towards her dad and his "Ah, feck-it" influence out of empathy for his grieving? ************ 'Dominance' can simply be whomever spends more time around her. She's a bit of a sleepwalker. She's not a leader, she likes a manager. She matches whichever manager takes most control over a situation or offers/foists most input or, as I say, is in her forcefield for longer (or she, his). Sorry for this analogy, but - she's a bit like a sheepdog (but, as I say, comfy and happy in that role...albeit, saying that, her attempts to control function preparations lately therefore confuses me). She should be your sheepdog. Because she is. But now her previous owner has moved into your house, keeps calling her from your field to his, and is basically uggering-up your attempts to organise your sheep (spinning plates), which, normally, you're good at. I reckon her mother must have kept her father - AND her, growing up - properly plugged-in and organised. Either that or her father is still depressed and grieving, at having both retired and lost his...well - MANAGER as well as wife. This could be unthinking/automatic on his part, as well as a product of the set-up'. Or it could be his way of becoming the dominant influence over her (again)....to manipulate her into his late wife's space? Or maybe YOU? What's obvious is this: He's not exactly behaving like an appreciate, frankly, RESCUED, guest whom "when in Rome" does as the Romans do, is he. He's behaving like he's a paid hotel guest, really. Wouldn't you say? He's dragging down the previously quite smooth functionality of the household. Was nothing hashed-out in terms of the household lifestyle/culture into which he'd be slotting himself, BEFORE he moved in? ************* Well, anyway, he's the problem - in terms of catalyst - so let's look more closely at him: And PS: I fail to see how he could succeed at subtly shoehorn-ing his daughter into his late wife's space because she's more like HIM! (Duu-uuh? Or is this about sense of ownership?) "What I mean by the FIL is lazy, is that he very rarely gets out of bed even though he is actually pretty fit from his previous work. He doesn't do anything unless he absolutely has to. The majority of his day is spent laying in bed, watching TV and playing on his phone. Easily 80% of his day on the average day. And yes, it drove his wife absolutely bonkers with how lazy he was. It got to the point that she just started doing everything by herself, as it took too much effort to get him to help." 1. He was lazy and over-entitled towards his wife... (So it's not romantic or retirement grief making him like that, then. NOTED.) ...To the long, drawn-out point where she gave up and began to think of herself as The Lone Do-er....easier to cease relying on any input from him and so just got on with it, left the wickle baby to get on with doing what small children do (please themselves, playing with their toys for hours-on-end in their rooms). 2. And now he's your problem...including being or effecting as a very bad influence on his daughter, whose prior equality with you has dropped considerably. So has this crept up on you, more and more, over ten whole years? Or did it kick in years ago and you're just that incredibly patient and hopeful, but now have run out of both? *********** 3. And he tried aggressing you: "Bracing someone: when someone gets aggressive and in your face while yelling at you or berating you." But didn't try it a second time because you flexed your muscles back and showed him that wouldn't be wise. Can you tell me all about this, from start to finish, including where you were when it kicked off? And was it soon after this that you first noticed him pulling your wife back into past familiar ways/dynamics (disorganisation, lack of thought and preparation, chaos and certain failure if not for your stepping in)? Whichever... It is NOT behaviour one should EVER see from their own father-in-law. It is highly unacceptable and inappropriate. Or, I'm sure will be once you've given me the unexpurgated run-down (s'il vous plais). *********** "And, no. I don't see her lazy behavior as trying to please her dad. As he doesn't really care about things along that line." No, not her lazy behaviour. I was referring to her episodes of project-hogging, trying to do it all herself. But never mind... He doesn't care so it can't be him she's trying to impress. Maybe it's you - or herself to herself? Or maybe she dislikes your way of doing things, sees it as too regimented? Well, even if - the fact is, her Advert said A, B and C (and she even test-ran as equal to you) but what you've got in reality, nowadays - and far worse since he moved in - is D, E and F. "As for hoping this sticks, we will see soon. I work every other weekend, and this weekend was a work weekend. So when I get Tues. off, I will be moving forward and doing more cleanup and she will be expected to help. I hate having to push her into this, as it feels like bullying, but at this point I feel like I also need to take the lead and get us moving in the right direction." NO, IT'S NOT BULLYING. You were sold an advert and then were demonstrated that its criteria were true/factual! I know circumstances and influences change people during their lifetime but - NOT THIS?! Plus, by your own admission, she was HAPPY copying your "proper adult"-ness with you, and hence things went smoothly (probably WHY, EH!). No. She is allowing herself to slide into Incompatibility with you. She needs to revert to fulfilling what her advert and trial period promised, or admit that she's not in your league and never was and nor could be (couldn't keep it up, anyway). She needs to put her big girl pants on, re-plant her flag - where it rightly should be: with her LIFE PARTNER - and whilst she's at it, SHOW HIM UP. In fact, you and she together should insist on a long, sit-down talk about what is not working and why, and needs to stop. Otherwise, you're going to end up (I can bloody see it from here!) MUMMY TO TWO OVERGROWN KIDS! Your career will go to pot! So - yeah, you absolutely DO need to take the (wayward) bull by the horns! Bravo! But you do, the pair of you, have to present a united front. It is Him against His Benefactor-Host In Two Bodies. What ELSE did he expect the household dynamic to be??? (I don't think I like him, Sam-I-Am. Actually. He sounds arrogant, over-entitled, insensitive, 'superior', uncaring, self-centred (perhaps even -obsessed) and inconsiderate......ugh. You wouldn't catch ME behaving like that if my child and their spouse took me in like that, rather than leaving me bereft or plonking me straight into a home. No way! I''d be doing-doing-DOING...showing my appreciation all over the shop (including asking first, not just helping myself). And he has eyes and ears, can surely SEE the influence he's been increasingly having so... Yeah... NO.) (Am I Warm?)

(PS: "where it rightly should be: with her LIFE PARTNER - and whilst she's at it, SHOW HIM UP." Him, obviously means, FIL.)

Tell me if I'm wrong, but... You seem to have married a teenager....whose father is a toddler....and who made it as far as teenagedom thanks only to the input of her one, functional, ACTUAL parent (mum). Burning question: Have you ever considered how similar you are to her mum?

She doesn't seem to have her own generator. She either plugs into dad (and does eff-all) or plugs into you (and manages to succeed). And look what happens when she plugs into herself! Is this JUST domestic and social stuff and she's good at her business?

Oh, and another thing (LOL)... if you think that is bullying then you have the opposite problem to being a bully! I don't mean wimp - you're clearly not that (you took- sorry, tried (haha!) to take me on not so long ago (which I like btw, no worries). I mean over-understanding, over-tolerant, over-patient, over-paternal/nurturing... Or do I. Maybe you're just healthy (hence prefer to be on top of things) and possess those qualities to their correct degree, and what is really happening is that those qualities are being exploited as a chink in your armour, and juiced too far...making it APPEAR that you're giving too much. Nope. You're Giving. But while you're giving, you're simultaneously being taken from (giving a Fiver while being pickpocketed a Fiver - makes Ten). THEN those qualities become Too Much. Get what I mean? It's your beeping day off! Which is rare! And instead of "having half of a weekend", you're having to do what LOADS OF ANNEXED, BEREAVED GRANDADS ARE BUSY, JOYFULLY DOING TO DO THEIR BIT AND HELP OUT! Bully? You? You're beeping kidding me, aren't you?

Here's an idea! Send him on a cruise for 2 weeks and while he's gone, intensively retrain her back to her own happy smooth-running lifestyle state again - and this time, hard enough that she remembers how much she preferred it and vows never to lapse again (...one would hope?),. LOL - but ACTUALLY...??? Shall I organise a whip-round? LOL Sorry to laugh but it's Black humour. I've just got the full measure of the (er) man and he's ridiculous.

If he wants to behave like that, he can do it in a Home where it's acceptable. Or The Hilton. But he chose to JOIN YOUR WORKING HOUSEHOLD. So he can damn well start behaving like it...while he still has the chance! It's your life. Your house. Your haven. Your place of safety and relaxation. Your marriage. You were willing to agree to your wife's wish to have him live with you (because that's the kind of really decent bloke you are). You've given it ten long years. It's not been working. Far from staying the same or improving - it's got worse, having just taken another downward shunt. Shape up, FIL, or ship out! No First Warning, either. He's had ten whole years of chances - to use his eyes and ears to take stock and adjust his ways and influence, like any grown man could. Instead, he's been relying on your daughter's bendiness of loyalties and your politeness and sense of awkwardness, both equalling Saying Nothing (or not enough), to get away with it. Whereas, as I say - HE SHOULDN'T EVEN HAVE NEEDED TELLING. I don't care how personable he is on the surface. I don't even care if he's offering financial contribution, formally or informally ad-hoc. He's slowly but surely turning your homelife, and romantic life, and you, miserable. Things on the ship were running perfectly well before he came. With an extra capable deck-hand, they should have got even better. Instead, they've been turning to Beep. Unless you're there to steer everything back on course (which you can't always be). (Can we say the you-know-what word yet?)

I think you have a lot of this actually figured out. Got me tearing up reading your insights. How the hell can't she see this? I'll reply again later, a little too emotional right now.

Good. About time! Make it a really long one! Let the tears stop naturally, don't whatever you do try to take control of it. It's the toxins coming out (literally). :-)

You've reminded me, actually....I was listening to a phone-in on LBC, about male mental health and how with the growth-spurt of women, men feel they no longer know their place. Included was one bloke on the line saying he didn't dare reach out to other fellas because of having been reared with the idea that men had to be strong. the second bloke on the line basically told him that he'd been given that back-to-front, that a man having the bravery to do so WAS THE VERY DEFINITION OF MALE STRENGTH and THAT was these lost boys' cause for feeling like the newly homeless gender! (There was a third guy but he just chimed in with Yeah!, LOL.) The complainant was completely stopped in his tracks. It's amazing the BS the patriarchal system has been feeding boys into men for so many centuries, isn't it? It's no different to telling them that real men don't poo! It's the chemical equivalent, doncha know. So many fellas...so much constipation....so little time.. LOL. I've spent my life telling men that their own tear-ducts aren't actually there just for decoration. Not you, obvs. But my point is - you go for it! Enjoy it! It is sooooooo cathartic and cleansing! It is if you don't interrupt it, anyway.

So has this crept up on you, more and more, over ten whole years? Or did it kick in years ago and you're just that incredibly patient and hopeful, but now have run out of both? It has been pretty much since the beginning. I just didn't want to overstep by going after them about this stuff. Obviously after 10 years, I am sick of the meaningless placations and lack of action. Can you tell me all about this, from start to finish, including where you were when it kicked off? This was about 5 years ago. We all had finished dinner and we had talked about some things that needed cleaning up. They didn't want me around, as when I clean, I aggressively clean lol. Garbage is rapidly tossed, areas are cleared and wiped down, and if we don't use something it gets tossed as well. They claimed that it stresses them out. So I went to our bedroom to chill, while they did the cleaning. About 2 hours later, I come out and they are watching a home renovation show. No cleaning had been done. So I got p.o.'d and mumbled something about watching a stupid TV show about renovating a living room and I went outside. He followed me outside and started ranting that I had said something about the stupid people in the living room. I corrected him on what I said and told him if he still wanted to finish this, it was fine with me. And was it soon after this that you first noticed him pulling your wife back into past familiar ways/dynamics (disorganisation, lack of thought and preparation, chaos and certain failure if not for your stepping in)? He has not actively tried to pull her into anything, that I have noticed. I believe this is her choice, and she just prefers the lazier option. Burning question: Have you ever considered how similar you are to her mum? Interestingly enough, not until you pointed it out. Nope. You're Giving. But while you're giving, you're simultaneously being taken from (giving a Fiver while being pickpocketed a Fiver - makes Ten). THEN those qualities become Too Much. Get what I mean? I actually have felt like I am being taken advantage of for a while now.

As for men, having to be emotionless workers and problem solvers. You have hit the nail on the head. When we were first married, I used to confide in her about everything. She was understanding of my problems and tried to help. Now, she'll listen, and she says she worries about me. But there are no actions to support these statements.

So today, we had another talk. I told her I was going to clean as soon as I got home in the morning, because the trash gets taken away about 4-5 hours after I get home. She took this as her cue to get some cleaning done herself, and she filled both the garbage can and the recycling can. While I am happy that she took the initiative, she also just went around the house looking for tiny problems to use as filler for the trash/recycling cans. Not targeting any of the problem areas. But I guess we can hit one of those, in a week before garbage goes out again.

I have also recommended that maybe her dad should get a part time job. It'll get him out of the house, give him some more spending $ so he can do things, and get him to be more active. He always wanted to travel, maybe the extra income could allow him to do that occasionally.

Heya, "It has been pretty much since the beginning. I just didn't want to overstep by going after them about this stuff. Obviously after 10 years, I am sick of the meaningless placations and lack of action." Then I do hope you had a completely unbridled cry because that'll have collected a LOT of (never discharged or resolved) resentment - woah! Sire, you have the patience of a saint. That would be great if the recipient had had what it takes to benefit from it, wouldn't it. Well, let's ignore the fact that you've tried these talks before and place our faith in the fact that this time you mean business, which is bound to get properly conveyed this time so SHOULD pose to your wife (and dad) as a first, formal, verbal warning. (Because - trust me, if they fail to ship up THIS time, DESPITE you knowing you've made your deadly-seriousness clearly known, whereby they have no more excuses, including ignorance over the extent of how you felt, claimed misinterpretations, etc. - a formal warning is what it will automatically transform into (for you, in your mind). It might be a very clever idea - IF you can afford it - to seek a counsellor. What you'd be after, is a Constant. I often recommend people start counselling the minute they can feel a relationship holds serious potential. It's about having an extra pair of eyes and ears to keep you validated and grounded as you set about achieving whatever such project. Where, due to the detail and distractions contained in the real-time event(s), overlook anything untoward - the counsellor won't. It'd be like having an invisible friend - but with big guns, lol....certainly enough to make it a case of two against two (because right now, you're in a way, outnumbered, with your compensatory weight relying on your remembering that it's half your house and grandpa is only the benefactory guest (or IS he 'formally' and regularly paying anything - you've yet to tell me?)). In the meantime, it's important for you to bear this in mind - HIGHLY PREFERABLY after having watched some Jo Frost SuperNannys on youtube (same principles, similar methodology): you cannot possibly take two people who, by their (special, lol) nature, aren't exactly flexible and, indeed, could even be set like concrete. Try to make them 'do' a whole range of different movements could basically break them and send them into meltdown in terms of rebellion featuring cementing their heels in...even into concrete they'd never noticed or bothered with before (e.g. suddenly start doing badly things they never had trouble completing/remembering/taking responsibility for beforehand, etc.).... ..."SLOWLY, SLOWLY, CATCHEE MONKEY" is the very old and wise saying. One thing at a time and start small. You're basically going to creep this (this being, YOUR RIGHTS AND EARNINGS) up on them the way they did you (like fat creeps up on a "suddenly" obese person). I don't mean it'll take another 10 years (haha!), but what I'm saying is, you have to don a white coat and clipboard & pen and attack this scientifically, G...UIDING bit by bit with your hand on their back which then becomes imperceptibly day by week by month both more firm and faster paced. Another tip (works brill with toddlers - me, I can get a 3 year old RARING to clean and tidy their own bedroom AND doing it surprisingly well, LOL): make it fun and include rewards as incentives. E.g. right, help me shift this lot and then I'll get a lovely BBQ going for supper! If you do it right, eventually it'll all become The New Status Quo and not an "Owwwwie!" in sight! But it is an art, which demands great (hurrah!) PATIENCE. And tolerance. APPROACHING THEM LIKE KIDS but not talking to them or treating them like kids. And an abyss to intermittently scream into (here, obvs - or your counsellor if you think you're L'Oreal enough to afford one). Reverse psychology works very well on little kids, too...."Ohhh, don't worry then, I shouldn't have asked actually, my bad - it is an especially heavy table, now I think about it, yeah, no, don't worry, I'll ask my mate Hercules to come help me lift it". I.e. you're too weedy / I am NOT!?!...suddenly wants to lift table. Oh, and praise for a job well(ish) done, lots of praise and pointing out if they have a particularly impressive aptitude for something (feed their little egos so they want to repeat the act that brings and then becomes its own source of num-nums). So it's like starting at full volume and slowly turning the knobs down to wherever they still safely fail to notice ("Hey!"), panic ("Eek, ugh - CHANGE!"), and rebel ("Sure will!...(sure won't, grrr)"). So.....Were you AWARE before now that you were a dadda? LOL Welcome to fatherhood. Great! (, doesn't it, LOL). I'll keep my responses fairly segmented, continue below...

BTW - quick intermission. You missed my earlier Freudian Slip, look (I noticed and then have been waiting to see if you'd spot it, LOL). It's subtle but it's in there and it's huge: "No First Warning, either. He's had ten whole years of chances - to use his eyes and ears to take stock and adjust his ways and influence, like any grown man could. Instead, he's been relying on your daughter's bendiness of loyalties and your politeness and sense of awkwardness, both equalling Saying Nothing (or not enough), to get away with it. Whereas, as I say - HE SHOULDN'T EVEN HAVE NEEDED TELLING." (Assuming you've clocked it: ) Eh? Eh? I should cocoa. LOL

Giant clue: third para in quotes, second line down. (pmsl - "whoops!")

"This was about 5 years ago. We all had finished dinner and we had talked about some things that needed cleaning up. They didn't want me around, as when I clean, I aggressively clean lol. Garbage is rapidly tossed, areas are cleared and wiped down, and if we don't use something it gets tossed as well. They claimed that it stresses them out. So I went to our bedroom to chill, while they did the cleaning. About 2 hours later, I come out and they are watching a home renovation show. No cleaning had been done." Uuuuuuhhh!? A whole precious evening for the bloke who gets only one weekend off in every two and a Tuesday (but in reality actually DOESN'T)... completely wasted...for zero reason, let alone a good one...? Gimmie the gun! (basically). I couldn't put up with that, sorry. Letting you sit upstairs for beeping nothing for all that prime time?! Do WHAT-AHHH! HAVE THEY NEVER HEARD OF THE CONCEPT OF BASIC RESPECT AND CONSIDERATION? AND SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY? OR FINISHING- NO, STARTING SOMETHING? OMG...WHERE DO I STOP? And this is an example. I.e. a regular type of occurrence.... I think I've just mystically Freudian-ed again - when I said about screaming into the abyss, LOL. *********** Saying all of that, though - you do need to keep yourself squeaky-clean and in-check if you're to grab the ship's steering-wheel and show (teach) them how it's done. Captains have to be beyond reproach. That means, you cant just (cough) UNILATERALLY decide to throw things out which in faact are joint, marital property. Unless, of course, we're talking merely empty vitamin tubs, for example...or clothing that's not fit for public sight....actual rubbish? If you act like that every time, then, that could be contributing to the pre-existing reticence of theirs, to get stuck in, "just in case" it again means losing something somehow useful or valuable to them? I mean, sure, actual full-blown hoarders have a problem (which they're trying to sooth with "stuff"). But trying to get them to basically release anchor from all these seabeds, done incorrectly, and too quickly, can be felt as quite traumatic. But back to them and that wasted evening: was this a deliberate ploy (just to assert themselves over you i.e. get to make you put yourself out per se and to that degree) or did they mean it at the time but just got too easily distracted to the point of forgetting you and the mess even existed? *********** Thing is, though: "So I got p.o.'d" Anyone in your position, would. In fact, I would have, even if I'd NOT been in your position ...or ANY position. That is just taking the giant piss and at the very least - in the event of a pure oversight - warranted a show from them of self-dismay, apology, and IMMEDIATE redress ("We'll do it right now! You sit down and I'll bring you a cuppa - here's the Remote! Really sorry again...!") "and mumbled something about watching a stupid TV show about renovating a living room" Again, it was your natural right to be pissed-off, and to deal with it how you need to, if you've kindly and cooperatively agreed to bend over backwards to that degree, only to realise too late that it was all for nothing (or, worse, sold on a false pretext? - which is NOT the way to deal with you if they indeed did have a problem with the chuck-outs or having to clean up straight after eating, say)...and now your back hurts. Your generosity got thrown back in your face. ....Yep, that tends to piss virtually all humans off, yep. "and I went outside." Fairenoughski. Obviously your gentlemanly way of taking the threat (you and the temptation to verbally lay into them) away to a safe distance, and to think straight. Normal. Ostensibly, stupid and very unbrotherhood-ly-like (LOL - Word Of The Day) of him to have done what he did next, then: "He followed me outside" Appears sort-of reasonable and fairenoughski as his own right - ON THE SURFACE. But, not, actually. Doing what you did, extricating yourself, is universally understood, certainly man-to-man, as a sign you want to be LEFT ALONE FOR A BIT...TO CALM DOWN. So AGAIN (well - to me, but then I'm counting as I go, LOL) we have a clearly-drawn-by-you, situational boundary line that Mr Man just BURSTS his way through/over and scrubs out with the heel of his foot1 So evidently HE'S not a gentleman, then, is he. (Bleugh.) "and started ranting that I had said something about the stupid people in the living room." I'll stop you (and everyone) right there because ...this is one of those soooo easily overlooked things about (cough) This Type: Here's how a properly grown-up, mature, civilised man would have done it (and note, this is the very basic minimum, even lacking any apology at that point): Him: "Sorry to disturb you, but, did I hear you right?...Did you call us stupid people?" You: "Huh? No! I said the PROGRAMME was stupid (anyway)" Him: "Oh. Ok...Yeah, I didn't think I could have heard right....just wanted to check. I'll leave you in peace again". See the difference? Ranting (going from 0-60 / shooting first, asking questions later, is Physical Intimidation and counts in a court of law as Violence (particularly as some experts say it's worse than Actual). Plus, it is going far too far, far too soon. It would only have been appropriate(ish) if, rather than merely mumbled under your breath, you'd, say, smacked his daughter hard across her cheek. So his choice of reaction (to your reaction to his bad behaviour) was Completely O.T.T. Let's look at all the taboos we can think of that should have stopped him from acting on his impulse (- hmm, Impulsivity, look): 1. He's in a guest in your house ergo could all too easily have ended up un-guested, pulling a No-No of a stunt like that!...so that ticks Taking Foolish Risks aka subconscious self-sabotage/destruction while taking the other down with them aka, No regard for their own or others safety as they Hellbent-seek to ego-win. 2. The nature of conduct has no call and no place between a father-in-law towards his son-in-law, anyway - anywhere, ever, EVER. IT'S A RELATIONSHIP DEALBREAKER. 3. If you know in your heart he would never dare be that bulshy with you out-of-doors and/or in front of any third party, it could count as Disrespect & (mild) Abuse Behind Closed Doors 4. Be it a party or long-term guest or paying lodger situation - just WHEN In Rome - you're never allowed to negatively accost a host (he's lucky you're not an Arab!)....unless you want to get immediately told to leave there-and-then. It's abusing your hospitality. You'd only do that if you felt you were safer than houses (scuse pun) - which the situation itself doesn't afford, EVER, anyway...(so that comes under Gross Over Entitlement and Anti Social Attitude & Conduct, then?) 5. It's entirely possible he could have gone too far even for his own daughter, and turned things with her sour as well (what - her reaction doesn't count?.......OR can be counted ON?...telepathic, is he?...or did she tell him to go after you?) 6. Any gratitude and appreciation for you welcoming him into your abode, on its own should have done the trick, but - nope...No Appreciation (The World Owes Him?/He's superior and special so His Highness deserves it?) 7. The shock and outrage might have had you going round telling everyone you knew for weeks or months after! 8. It flashes through your mind, the fact that if you DO dare do (beedoo) - you're going to end up having to do something significant to make up for it, so - ah, plagh, why bother!... (Is that Lack Of Forethought and Lack of Regard For/Concept Of Consequence?) Et le piece de rrrrresistance: 8. Normal, Healthy, Decent, Conscientious people who are a guest as well as occupy that relational role......JUST....WOULDN'T.....DARE. In fact, they couldm't even conceive of such low-down, over-entitled-and-arrogant, daytime TV trashy drama behaviour (- note). So what does that make him? Et le pdr parte deux: 9. Only you, as the victim of their bad or inadequate, understandably provocative and antagonistic behaviour (tick), had any right to be peed-off or make any complaint(s) as well as 'threats'/warnings/future deterrents. So now, evidently we can add - Stealing The Victim Cloak (by treating YOU as the unreasonable one when it was the opposite)....(so that means Gaslighting as well) (it's really not looking good, is it, given that he'd been a constant problem already up to that 5-year point and then the 5 years since). But re the reason for the act itself: Nope, he did NOT think he'd heard you say that. The mis-hear was a lie. He heard what you said just fine. He just said that so as to provide himself with an excuse of an opportunity to DEMONSTRATE to you that "you don't EVER get to be the boss of ME, not even in cases where I've bent your back then, as opposed to apologising and making-up, thrown custard full in your face, Ssssonny Jim!". (Well, HE was wrong, then, wasn't he, LOL) It's a common tack of your covert aka passive-aggressive, to light a fire above the table because, really, he wants to light a fire, unnoticed - or distract from one already lit - UNDER it. He just didn't like being told off/treated as inferior or not superior (despite it's intrinsic to the set-up whether he likes it or not), and what you saw is what he has always done in that situation - e.g. to staff and colleagues with complaints/criticism/suggestions at the ex-office (hope he wasn't in Customer Services? LOL) and, in the earlier years, towards his wife if she dared reprimand him towards getting him to change any such ways. Regardless, I'm very glad you squared your shoulders at him. It'll make things from here easier. "I corrected him on what I said and told him if he still wanted to finish this, it was fine with me." What did he do next, what was his reaction? And what did she do? And DID you ever get any apology from either of them, together or individually? Or a sneaky apperance at apology via doing you a "favour" or being extra nice for a day...anything?

"He has not actively tried to pull her into anything, that I have noticed. I believe this is her choice, and she just prefers the lazier option." I disagree. You could argue that he wasn't trying to enforce his culture onto yours on purpose. But - "The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing", so - define Actively Pull. He's her parent, always, til his death (or hers, whichever comes soonest). Parenting includes setting an example, still lending a guiding hand if the parent can see their "junior adult" isn't managing or conquering something - this case, NOT constantly defaulting to being an antisocial or anti social marital partner. Exclamation-Mark. 'Pssst!...Sweetheart, can I have a word? Just thought you should know...I've noticed hubby is growing more and more unhappy with the mess and chaos everywhere...I've seen his face whenever he clocks it - basically, all the time! - and I don't think I've been helping, either, with all my crap now. Do you think we should have a tidy-up when he's at work tomorrow?...be a nice surprise...? After all, I don't want him getting mad at me for being a bad influence on you or something because that would make things really awkward or, worse still, he might end up changing his mind about having me living here with you! Plus, he's a good bloke, and a good husband to you, I'm really fond of him, don't want to be upsetting him unnecessarily, do I....' (Ohhh, the mental effort of that rocket-science!) (Does he trip over the rug a lot as well...each and every time?) So, nope, sorry - NO MAKING ANY EXCUSES FOR THEM. Pa-ssive. Pa-ssive. Passive. (Practise with me) Passive-Aggressive. Co-vert. Co-vert. Covert. Under-The-Table-itis. Under-The-Table-Itis. They're NOT REALLY kiddies who don't know how to do clever stuff that helps or prevents or avoids or fixes, you know? They just don't want to - and won't unless it's unavoidable or they're made to. ********** But now here's the tricky bit if he - and/or his daughter - have issue-based habits that are too deep down to ever be improved or capped: Like a dam that's sprung a hole - plugging it with a finger doesn't always work to stop the water coming through. What tends to happen is - a new hole bursts forth. So you reach over to stick another finger in the second hole....and before you know it, you're doing an Olly The Octopus. How's your own life going, meanwhile? Answer: it isn't. Since they're already p-a, any side-leakages will be no harder to spot than the usual front-on crap, but will be - or seem - slightly different, slightly new, irritating acts and behaviours. If. Let's see... Time always tells. ************ Re your wife: if, on any excuse, including "well, someone else is lazing around..!?", your wife drops to the floor and crawls on her hands and knees, rather than walks upright on two feet - what would you conclude: that she was a biped or a quadraped? Albeit, you haven't told me whether she's doing too much of other stuff (because she's giving it higher priority, perhaps?), including her day job, or, indeed, whether she's successful at her freelance job or is slapdash there, too, and tends to let clients down a lot, etc.?

"As for men, having to be emotionless workers and problem solvers. You have hit the nail on the head. " Fankooverymush. Hitting nails on heads is my special speciality. "When we were first married, I used to confide in her about everything." Well, you do, don't you. It's a big deal, being married. It's a momumental position. The person IS your home. And IS your family. And your future. They're you're one, guaranteeably safe person. Or so you believe. Because it's what you're supposed to expect. Including, telling each other virtually everything about what you think and feel, as you think and feel it that is relevant to your shared, primary, day-by-day experience/existence. DAMN right you expect to share things. (Including the overall workload.) "She was understanding of my problems and tried to help. Now, she'll listen, and she says she worries about me. But there are no actions to support these statements." And did she tend to confide in and lean on you, too? Also, when she did, would you tend to hear-out her opinions and ever take her advice? What WERE these past actions - can I have an example? You didn't complain about the same problem(s) for longer than reasonable because you took too long to try fixing them, I take it? ************************************************************************************************************************************************************ "So today, we had another talk. I told her I was going to clean as soon as I got home in the morning, because the trash gets taken away about 4-5 hours after I get home. She took this as her cue to get some cleaning done herself, and she filled both the garbage can and the recycling can." Ok - noted. "While I am happy that she took the initiative, she also just went around the house looking for tiny problems to use as filler for the trash/recycling cans. Not targeting any of the problem areas. But I guess we can hit one of those, in a week before garbage goes out again." Tsk. Let's disregard your Ah Well! comment at the end there and just focus on what just happened: You had a talk, which - by the fact of your having announced it to her - and like that - would have made it obvious you expected her to do her share of what YOU were doing. Instead, she did 5% of it by collecting up the (basically) detritus left by the Fairies. (You sure it was a bin and not a thimble?) Pa-ssive A-ggress-ive Specifically - piecemeal aka fob-off aka enough to shut you up. I am not impressed. And no, you're not happy. And I'm noting strongly how you're lowering your expectations by expressing gratitude for "Well, maybe I didn't get the roast beef and potatoes I ordered and paid for, but at least I got a few peas and dots of gravy". You didn't sign up for crumbs. Does she - or did she ever - get crumbs from you? This was her chance. TWO talks. She knew this was important to you, to the extent where regaining your welfare depended on it. If she'd disagreed with your attitude and expectations, she had every grown-up chance to say so. Yeah. Quadraped. Jury's in on that score. Unless!...... She's not a Borrower, is she? Or a mermaid? Or just a head and neck on a wheeled trolley with only one arm and shoulder? That would explain it? No? Oh well...it was worth a shot. Scuse sarcasm, but I'm bitterly disappointed on your behalf.

So, what about this: "I have also recommended that maybe her dad should get a part time job. It'll get him out of the house, give him some more spending $ so he can do things, and get him to be more active. He always wanted to travel, maybe the extra income could allow him to do that occasionally." Aaaand - what happened next, what was her reaction and what did she say? Tip: if you react to something, let me know what it was you reacted to as well as what followed your reaction. And if you're the protagonist or antagonist, let me know what reaction you got and what you then replied/responded with. You basically keep leaving out the punchlines, LOL.

And did she tend to confide in and lean on you, too? Also, when she did, would you tend to hear-out her opinions and ever take her advice? What WERE these past actions - can I have an example? Yes, she used to and still does. If she just needs to vent, I can do that and just be a listener/snuggler for relief. She has also come to me in the past with problems at work, and asked for my advice. We will usually sit and talk things out about it. I can usually provide a solution, but if I can't usually the act of talking it through and asking pointed questions will give her an answer. What did he do next, what was his reaction? And what did she do? And DID you ever get any apology from either of them, together or individually? Or a sneaky apperance at apology via doing you a "favour" or being extra nice for a day...anything? Now that you mention it....no! Lol. His reaction was to play it off as a misunderstanding and go back inside. Aaaand - what happened next, what was her reaction and what did she say? She listened to the idea, but I doubt she will ever broach the subject. I have personally told him before, that maybe a part time job is something he would want to try....but he has never shown any interest. I think he only does something if he HAS to do it. And with the living situation we have now, he does not HAVE to work. I am really not leaving out the punchline lol. A lot of our conversations just seem to taper off or abruptly end without any real solutions being met.

So the weekend is coming up. Which means trash will be going out again in a few days. I asked my wife, what she thought we should clean. Giving her the opportunity to be a team player. Since all the inconsequential stuff was mostly dealt with last week, she had very few options. She chose to finish the kitchen. It is a small project..... Pardon me, but I am internally cussing myself out. I just realized that the kitchen project is another attempt at placating me. It has very little garbage, and is mostly tools and paint that were used when we redid the kitchen. There is still 1 final piece that needs to be done, and I can rush through that in probably 10 minutes (been waiting for her father to help while I work), it is just hanging a railing on some stairs to the basement. The point being, there is nothing to throw away except for some tiny items here and there maybe. The clutter will be removed back to tool boxes and such, but there is no junk to get rid of. Guess I am going to be putting my foot down again. This could be an uncomfortable weekend.

Update. Got home and filled our garbage can from empty. Leaving enough room for a garbage bag before "garbage day". Took me 11 minutes, and I did sort through and keep some stuff. In reference to my burying the plot comment. It isn't like nothing ever gets settled in our conversations, I just take people at their word when they say they'll do something and don't push it.

Finally! Finally! Got my wife to join me, on making our home presentable. She was aware that I did some cleaning this morning. She even did a little bit more, on the problem area I was working on afterwards. BUT here is the big deal. Since I work nights, I sleep from morning til afternoon. I found out that her Dad started rummaging through the trash, trying to find stuff to "save" (he saw me throwing things away on our doorbell camera). She actually went outside and yelled at him to stop taking stuff out of the garabage! I know this all isn't over with, and there is still work to be done. But I am so, so glad that she is finally doing the right things to help our household move forward.

"What did he do next, what was his reaction? And what did she do? And DID you ever get any apology from either of them, together or individually? Or a sneaky apperance at apology via doing you a "favour" or being extra nice for a day...anything? Now that you mention it....no! Lol. His reaction was to play it off as a misunderstanding and go back inside." Ok. That's known as - JUSTIFYING THE UNJUSTIFIABLE (check!), namely, his bad, socially inappropriate and unacceptable attitudes, conduct and behaviour, - including using PHYSICAL INTIMIDATION TACTICS (check!) aka threat (immediate and ongoing-subsequent of violence/"fisticuffs"), - AND AT *HIS* AGE?! (rhetorical question -) ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! (check!)...showing you he could, - AT THE DROP OF A HAT (check!), - AND WITH UNREASONABLY TOO LITTLE "PROVOCATION" (check!), . thereby showing, either he has no concept of or no regard for how that kind of domineering, uncivil, behaviour went out with the dinosaurs (check!), - instead of doing the only right thing in apologising (check!), - when he too clearly was in the wrong BOTH TIMES, as made this a case of Needlessly & Avoidably Adding Insult To Injury (check!).... - almost as if he WANTED to (or didn't mind if he did) make things WORSE, not better (check!) - and leave them that way to set in stone (check!). That's the Narcissistic traits and behaviours bit covered. So, far from acting like your normal, typical, well-grown, experienced, hopefully at his age, WISE man who, through copious practise, can put OUT a spark or wee fire as par for his social and worklife course, - he thinks his best course of - let's not forget ANTI-GUESTLY (check!) - action, is (and although one doesn't necessarily seek gratitude, what one definitely doesn't ever expect is ANTI-gratitude!) - to POUR FAT ON IT (bloody check!), - thereby taking the foolish risk (check!) of you turning around and telling him that he had just made his staying there another day/week in your once-harmonious, well-conducted, well organised family home, untenable (to ANYONE in your position!)...or at the very least - a first and final verbal warning. (So, then, we can safely assume this marks the moment when full over-cockiness kicked-in on his part. Evidently because he'd already for too long been getting away with abusing you and your hospitality, and crashing boundaries (incl the biggie of ever sticking-up for yourself again) (they always underestimate us and overestimate themselves, no worries, being picked-on is perversely flattering) in pettier, tinier, subtler ways, which would only have fed his power and bad attitudes along with it.) - All adding up, basically, to an attitude of Gross Over-Entitlement (aka taking liberties all the time while being incapable of being grateful) and Gross Immaturity. And that's the Narcissistic Sociopathic (aka Narcopathic) bit (some of it). (While I've got a decent chunk of time, I'm just ensuring to give you all the terms, both colloquial and clinical, so's to build you a faster ether surfboard for understanding it all, as it'll help re-grow your rightful sense of power and status, btw. E.g. "Narcopath". Not used that frequently but will bring up refreshingly different angles to view from.) *************** Whilst I'm at it...Little known fact and handy tip, based on experience: Sometimes they act up because they want to tame and dominate you and sometimes because vice-versa. It's like they're saying: I can do Dependent-Kid-Slave & Victim, I know that role well, grew up in it. I can do Authoritarian Parent-Master-Perpetrator, I've seen and felt that one being done too, again, grew up with it. But as I have one short leg and one long, I'm without Balance so if you think we're ever going to have the one, most vital relationship key, known as (overall) Equality - forget it, ain't ever gonna happen...if you're not gonna be my obedient kid (privately and in pulic), despite I make the shittiest parent in town, then you're gonna be my tireless parent (privately only). You can't do Equality if you've never had it repeatedly demonstrated and/or explained to you time and time again for two decades, can ya, nor (as happens) ever got to mix with types who could. And you can't retro-learn it if you've been raised to have a (special) learning difficulty (mind forced into deformity). Again, time, consistency and repetition from The Light Side is all that can counter same from The Dark Side, which takes time. If you run into barbed wire, the only painless and/or clothes-saving way out is going to be a slow process, featuring reversing out EXACTLY as you went in. It might even be dark by the time you get home. Some say retraininig them can't be done, some say it can. I got so close but suddenly mutineered (you don't know true frustration until that!), but I've self-healed what you're not supposed to be capable of healing, so - no such word as Can't. Only Could or Couldn't. Whether they "R1" or not, or how hard-set, depends not on What (we all occasionally can do a What), but the How and To What DEGREE (weight, frequency) and whether there's a legitimately extenuating allowance for it (circumstantial stress too much for most humans to cope with). So you have to know thy patient. Carrot works better than stick. They're paranoid about sticks, understandably. Harnessing egos, but for the power of good (what works for all), is not difficult. Especially when they don't ever expect it from you because you're so polite. (They don't understand that politeness for healthy people is a form of protecting the other as much as the self, they've been taught it's grovelling and beseeching out of vulnerability or soft-soaping out of neediness/greediness. Again - kids...who never attended emotions school (neglected/constantly distracted from joining dots), or worse - actual school (delinquents).) Don't, whatever you do, "brain" yourself by failing to recognise when you're merely banging your head against a brick wall. Leaving a bad situation/irredeemably corrupted culture is not quitting, it's escaping. Hence the film wasn't called Quit From Auschwitz, LOL. ********** Anyway...Apology would obviously have been his guarantee-ing he wouldn't ever be doing "that" again. Why would he do that, when it's clear that what he was after, was for you to think twice in future before ever (1) merely verbally standing-up for yourself as is your right (how very dare you, you inferior being) (check!) a perfectly natural (albeit mistaken as under-assertiveness by Mr Thickie) (check!) response to unfair, inconsiderate, thoughtless, disrespectful treatment by he and his daughter, more befitting a pair of 7 or 7-year-olds or over-distracted, young teenagers (check!), thereby SPLITTING LOYALTIES AKA TRIANGULATING BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR WIFE (check!), by eroding her respect for you (by outwardly disrespecting you in front of her and repeating it from there), (2) despite it was happening in your own home (ffs!), as gave you even greater right, and, in the process, (3) your having dared to criticise (check!) The Great Oz/Queen Of Hearts (off with his head!) while role-modelling laziness and carelessness (all over again) in front of his daughter (refresher Ambient Brainwashing course, anyone?). Meanwhile Mr I'm So Grateful You Rescued Me By Taking Me In That I Can't Help Over-Showing It, is "showing" his gratitude by: - lounging around, all day every day (check!), - at your joint marital expense (check!) - while failing to contribute financially (check!) - or not in any way you can or dare firmly state (because I've asked you 3 times), nor with household and garden chores, meaty or otherwise (check!), . failing to, out of sympathy or respect (when he has eyes and ears), offer to find or ask to be given (loft?) alternative storage for his ...are those tapes and DVDs personal memorabilia or just entertainment?...whichever - not suggesting alternative storage (check!) for his HOARDING/CLUTTER (check!), thereby significantly pulling down the tone (check!) of the house via roll-on effect. A MAN OF HIS AGE AND EXPERIENCE IS SUPPOSED TO BE MORE CAPABLE THAN *YOU*. He should be heightening your own mascuine maturity...by guiding, suggesting, showing you both how it's done, basically, even teaching you new and handy tricks!...paying it forward via a sense of social responsibility and never-ending paternal instinct as wants "the wee bairns" to continue prospering long after he's gone. He's a child. He hasn't got a beeping idea. He's mild and subtle, though. But....Pebble In The Shoe (this case, Slipper), if you can't ever remove it, soon morphs into sharp shard of glass. Yeah, with his pervasive attitude going constantly in her eyes and ears, he would have had a bad influence on her, alright. And during her blueprint years, sadly. Which mum would have tried to counteract and remove all the time (I call it having to de-louse the kid after any extended contact). Do you agree that thus far he's been ticking one heck of a lot of narcissistic-sociopathic behavioural boxes? Especially when we remember to include the afore-esablished Impulsivity (which when that huge a display, represents the same - or greater - weight than the "Pervasive Pattern" criterion (of drip-drip-drips)). Oh and by the way: despite the visual and audial chaos and amount of legs you describe, that BBQ afternoon, I find it strange that he so easily managed to keep tabs on you (not lose focus of you) in terms of where you'd gone and how long for. Funny, that. Eh? FUNNY, THAT! (I expect you hadn't realised before now, how utterly fascinating you were, eh?) So what's that? The thin end of the stalking wedge/tip of the stalky iceberg? I repeat, thin end?tip. But it's characteristic of your machinators (or counter-machinators like moi, hence it not having escaped my own notice) to be constantly keeping their beady eye on their targets/threats/competitors, individually and en-masse (how they interact) to that intensity...studying them and their "weaknesses" (being human, having feelings) for future ref (arms cache). Well, thank God he's no Spring Chicken, then! If he was, I'd be saying . dump the dud without his noticing until it's too late and he's no route back to you - quick! OMG, if he was, he'd be unbearable, uuuuuugh. He's probably too old to change - but not to curb (toddler-training) - notwithstanding inevitable side-leakages, as explained (and hopefully not for too long that you get ambushed/mutineered by your Auto Pilot (have you heard me explain that one yet?). He'll just have to behave by-rote, won't he (join the local working man's club...take it out on some poor bstd there (*rolls eyes*)), if he wants to keep borrowing a home that's half yours? And here's the rub - if rightfully insisting he "do as in Rome" (at least moreover...you don't want to merely swap places with him, there should be SOME compromise and allowance-making) doesn't change a thing and you DO run out of patience: Where a partnership consists of two individuals with equal company shares and say, then nothing but a unanimous vote counts as a Yay. If one of you objects, it's automatically a Nay...majority agreement has not and cannot be reached. Furthermore, you're allowed (because it's a personal not biz relationship, as features empathy and shared goals) to change your mind if you then get the information to say, "I've been more than reasonable in having given it more than a fair trial and, having your slovenly, disrespectful, subtly, frankly, sh*t-stirring dad move in has proven to be a really bad idea for all concerned, so either he or we will have to find him his own place, sorry. It's obvious he's not really happy here, anyway - grateful and happy people just don't behave like that"... And PS, just in case: Plenty of us have struggled with serious grieving for a close loved-one before, but still manage to metaphorically chew with our mouths closed or walk a straight line without knocking (only other people's) things over - so don't let that be any excuse, either. Plus, even if we HADN'T done anything or all that much wrong, because his daughter should be old enough to NOT let herself be dumbed-down just because "well, HE'S doing it?!" or "well, he started it?!" or because she's never been made to "plug in" properly - so what? Just knowing we have INADVERTENTLY been having a bad influence as has been rocking the marital boat would have us agreeing or OFFERING to exit the once-cosy nest toute suite, or, alternatively, promising faithfully to put that right by changing our behaviour, starting Now. BECAUSE WE WOULDN'T WANNA BE THROWN OUT (duuh). NOR DAMAGE OUR DAUGHTER'S MARRIAGE, POSSIBLY REST OF HER LIFE (duuh). OTHER-WAY-ROUND FOR OUR TYPE, PROBABLY! And if we HAD a puny, starving, greedy ego that couldn't cope with no longer being King Pin (leaving aside, that his version means despot) - we'd find or create an ALTERNATIVE role vacancy for ourselves...be it family handyman, gardener, mechanic supper-maker, chauffeur or hooverer or Agony Uncle OR WHATEVER. Adults find a place for themselves in this world. We know the world in macro or micro, can't change for us. So we adapt. "Adapt or perish" - Darwin. He clearly doesn't care and probably isn't capable anyway (let's see) - just as long as he gets to continue living his life doing little but constantly playing and pleasing himself, with zero adult responsibilities or obligations, nor taking the initiative - no concept of them! - like the spoiled little kid he is (since whenever he first was taught he ruled the roost and could behave as he liked, when he liked, never having to apologise, learning to cope with his bad moods or force his will, by throwing one's Hotwheels at the wall...etc.), getting adopted and looked after by whatever Mamma or Dadda is willing and available - IMO, he wouldn't care who they were. I suspect he'd be perfectly happy in a home, actually. I mean, look at his lack of PRIDE in his (I'm sure - lovely) bedroom. Speaks volumes. *************************** ...BECAUSE: "Aaaand - what happened next, what was her reaction and what did she say? She listened to the idea, but I doubt she will ever broach the subject. I have personally told him before, that maybe a part time job is something he would want to try....but he has never shown any interest. I think he only does something if he HAS to do it. And with the living situation we have now, he does not HAVE to work.! This clearly wouldn't get you anywhere. "I am really not leaving out the punchline lol. A lot of our conversations just seem to taper off or abruptly end without any real solutions being met." Got it. Narc Symptom. Her case, Narc Fleas/Ticks. His. Which we know from the fact that she and you ticked along (scuse pun) perfectly nicely before he landed. Failing to return your tennis shot, like that, as a way to stop the rally - or whole match - just because she can't compete as an equally-seeded player is so childish and a sign of ineffectualness. She got moulded into a bit of a cowardly-custard in terms only of confrontation (because she does have aggression - she just hides it from herself and others). ***************************** Now, then, we're presuming she's thrilled with this new set-up, but for all we know, she's actually not (and hiding it and making the best of it) and also was happier before, but...GUILT...."Can't do that to him, he's still my Dad".... "Plus now he's my only remaining parent so more precious than ever".... "Plus I'm not a nasty person so I couldn't be so mean"..."Mum would have wanted me to look after him"...blah-blah excuses to avoid the real issue. So, yes, take back your rightful, earned status, power, CAREFULLY CULTIVATED & NURTURED, FAMILY CULTURE. Also, know that she has less right to vote, anyway, because SHE'S not the one being endlessly needled and having her welfare chipped away (even by his mere, bloody presence in the house by now, I'm betting!), is she. 'She's Alright, Jack!' So many victims end up buying the behaviourally-manipulated illusion that the perp has all the power, over them. Au contraire. The reason they want to bound and gag you is because, otherwise, you're strong and powerful, aka a threat to their Supersized-ness...more than their equal - their SUPERIOR (all parts working fine, still capable of climbing life ladders). Big Dogs Don't Bark.. Don't need to. Nor spray their urine over every skirting board to "defend against" what is just some wee, docile, toy dog in the corner. Innit. ****************************** I see your wife put up a bit of resistance at first before happily caving - AND was perfectly happy, still, afterwards? Whether you tackle him head-on or not - if he's staying, you need to introduce a household chores rota. It's standard practise when there are more than 2 adults in the house, like your rent-sharers. It prevents what's known as Diffusion Of Responsibility. I'd leave it up to you, whether or not you wanted to include awarding them Gold Star stickers to display on the 'chart' every time they complete something to-schedule, LOL. ("It's pettiness, Jim, but not as we know it".) ****************************** "Since I work nights, I sleep from morning til afternoon. I found out that her Dad started rummaging through the trash, trying to find stuff to "save" (he saw me throwing things away on our doorbell camera). She actually went outside and yelled at him to stop taking stuff out of the garabage! I know this all isn't over with, and there is still work to be done. But I am so, so glad that she is finally doing the right things to help our household move forward." Bloody Nora - no WONDER you needed a cry! You married Dave from The Fast Show! Look!... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fvjk47UORFs Hopefully, now I've just made you laugh. But, actually, Indecisiveness, including trying to be on both teams at once yet, unawares, TOO readily and easily sucked-in - making it Split Loyalties - are both typical in long-term victims. ******************************* Sorry if this is an over-long one with insufficient order, btw. It's so hot and sweaty today, I've had to do it in chunks, plus it's hard to think straight (gasp!). You'll need to read it more than once, though, it's a bit of a foie gras-ing. PS: Freudian was "your daughter"(LOL) PPS: I'm afraid it matters not if verbal agreement to do something ever got reached with your wife, if the task never got done (or done too late). Only actions ever prove if it had been sincere or just them telling you what you wanted to hear as a tactic to inconveniently delay or avoid doing it (by giving you enough time to forget or fold in defeat). And only YOUR actions will make them sit up, pay attention and take you seriously (if they have it in them). PPPS: I sense you're gearing-up to 'have' a baby. All this "urgent" nesting behaviour. Are you?

Tsk! Supplied the wrong link to the first one! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmTahAali90

I actually have no interest in introducing a chore schedule for him. At this point I would prefer that he just hid in his room, and allowed me to work on the marriage and house without his interference. And I, too, am a big believer in "actions speak louder than words". Everyone knows this about me. I don't care what you say, I want to see the change. And no, we aren't planning for a baby. Both of us being 39 years old, has made that less and less feasible. I am just sick of being embarrassed every time someone comes to our house.

"I actually have no interest in introducing a chore schedule for him. At this point I would prefer that he just hid in his room, and allowed me to work on the marriage and house without his interference." Yeah, undoing your clear-out and in the process eroding your attempt to impose your own homeowning right to run it as you see fit, through the way to tried to - was it take or sneak? - the rubbish you'd just put outside, back into the house... that made my blood boil because it's either gross insensitivity or passive-aggression so extreme it represents a middle finger (frankly). I want to see the change as well, actually...not sure where you got the idea I didn't? Just forewarning you so that you don't fall prey to throwing the towel in, in defeat on the final lap, being as how you can't see where on the track you are. Does this guy make you feel like he actually likes you? "And no, we aren't planning for a baby. Both of us being 39 years old, has made that less and less feasible." Are you ok with it, the pair of you? "I am just sick of being embarrassed every time someone comes to our house." OH. So it's worse than I thought, and we're talking all rooms - or all main living-rooms - each have piles of clutter and make you look like a trio of hoarders?

Are you ok with it, the pair of you? No, I am not. She changed her mind and decided against kids after her mom died. Said she always figured to count on her mom for help, and since that was no longer an option, she didn't want kids anymore. I tried to be patient about it and brought it up at least once a year, but she never changed her mind. In the last year or so, I think she has realized how disappointed I am by this. At least she has acknowledged that she has noticed. OH. So it's worse than I thought, and we're talking all rooms - or all main living-rooms - each have piles of clutter and make you look like a trio of hoarders? Pretty much all rooms have stuff stacked on the floor somewhere. I have gotten the main living area about 80% completed. Just need another week or two of garbage runs. There is actually 1 room that we can't even go inside without moving things stacked in the doorway. So, all the progress that I thought I had made with my wife is already starting to backslide. She wants me to step away from the cleaning so that she can take her time doing it her way. I told her that I wasn't backing off, and that considerations for my feelings weren't even relevant for over a decade. So now, I would not be considerate of their feelings. I am just going to get it done. They are embarrassed by the house too, they just aren't willing to work like I am. Not that, that is even hard. Literally 10-30 minutes of work to fill our garbage can with clutter/junk. She kept pushing back, and wanting to take more time. So I gave her an ultimatum. If the house wasn't cleaned and ready for remodel by year end, I would be moving out and getting MY own place. She would not be coming with me. I also told her, that if she had any sense we would just rent a dumpster for a day 4 weekends from now when I have the weekend off and no plans. And we could push it and be done in a few hours. I have to admit, as much as I don't like pushing things. They have finally p* me off, and I am going after it like a pit bull. I am really not interested in playing the nice guy anymore, and I am going to keep doing whatever I can on my own. I may actually rent the dumpster on my own.

Sorry I'm late (again). The daytime heat here is now INSANE....ex-pats calling it ridiculous and the Spaniards, disgusting...all staying indoors, windows closed to keep the heat out...as am I. And the nights aren't much better. This is week 6 and it's utterly, utterly exhausting...No WAY can I use a laptop...nor even have a lit candle, not until between 3 and 5am - that's how "too hot already" it is! What's it like where you are? Are you in the UK? ****************** 1. "Are you ok with it, the pair of you? No, I am not. She changed her mind and decided against kids after her mom died. Said she always figured to count on her mom for help, and since that was no longer an option, she didn't want kids anymore. I tried to be patient about it and brought it up at least once a year, but she never changed her mind." Seriously?! Oh, mate... That's horrible. Especially as it basically boils down to - now I can no longer have constant help, I'm no longer interested. Different if it was because she were grief-stricken. But then why not use the carte blanche to just say so. Plus, I suspect this would have been her decision, had her mother 'merely' suffered some long-term injury, don't you? Knowing all of what you've now told me, I'd have to say, is she really that incredibly lazy? Only - immature attitudes like that, are precisely what a functioning maternal instinct IS FOR! When that biological clock starts ticking, it trumps EVERYTHING...EVERY prior reason or excuse against (and not just cognitively - we're talking, those negative and reticent feelings completely changing or disappearing - poof! - and you suddenly can neither believe you ever felt that way nor relate to it. ...Even Anorexia or Heroin addiction! There's just no arguing with it. She's treating Motherhood as if it comprises NOTHING BUT drudgery - and that is not true, it's roughly half and half, like anything. But 100% when it comes to life meaning and purpose and the satisfaction that brings. She's looking at it purely cognitively, in other words...no feelings. And anyway, what are you - chopped liver? You're Mr Proactive Hyperactive as far as I can tell! You'd be a big help! Obviously not to the extent her mother would (assuming the woman was likewise retired). Plus, le piece de resistance: what about the fact her OTHER parent is now JUST DOWN THE BLOODY HALL ALL DAY-EVERY DAY...shall we NOT overlook that one? (lol, sorry, I'm lecturing her, not you) (she makes me angry, sorry). I know she's your wife, but...ach...she's not really looking like a great specimen, is she. Especially in comparison to you. I hate to say this, too, but... You must feel like you've been somehow, somewhat conned into this marriage Certainly short-changed? PS: "In the last year or so, I think she has realized how disappointed I am by this. At least she has acknowledged that she has noticed." (Yeah - 'no shit, Sherlock?".) ************************ 2. "OH. So it's worse than I thought, and we're talking all rooms - or all main living-rooms - each have piles of clutter and make you look like a trio of hoarders? Pretty much all rooms have stuff stacked on the floor somewhere. I have gotten the main living area about 80% completed. Just need another week or two of garbage runs. There is actually 1 room that we can't even go inside without moving things stacked in the doorway." These two are not well people, are they. And yet it seems only to be you who suffers because of it. Fair statement? ************************* 3. "So, all the progress that I thought I had made with my wife is already starting to backslide. She wants me to step away from the cleaning so that she can take her time doing it her way. I told her that I wasn't backing off, and that considerations for my feelings weren't even relevant for over a decade. So now, I would not be considerate of their feelings. I am just going to get it done. They are embarrassed by the house too, they just aren't willing to work like I am. Not that, that is even hard. Literally 10-30 minutes of work to fill our garbage can with clutter/junk." Yes, I agree. "Her way" is - "Tomorrow, tomorrow, I luv ya, tomorrow, you're always a day away". What does SHE claim "her way" is? (Well said and well put, by the way. Absolutely...10 years your way (fail) - 10 years mine - the very definition of Fair.) No excuses, remember? I am embarrassed by the state of the house, is as, I am embarrassed by the state of the house DOES. (Works on you and the majority of other humans, doesn't it?) "She kept pushing back," Bingo. "and wanting to take more time. So I gave her an ultimatum. If the house wasn't cleaned and ready for remodel by year end, I would be moving out and getting MY own place. She would not be coming with me." STOP THE PRESS! GOOD FOR YOU! I didn't want to be the one to suggest doing that (albeit, I was intending to anyway - for your sake) but - damn right! "I also told her, that if she had any sense we would just rent a dumpster for a day 4 weekends from now when I have the weekend off and no plans. And we could push it and be done in a few hours." And she said...? Oh, wait, don't tell me: she didn't. Too logical and sensible, can't be argued with, so cease the discussion entirely with Going Schtum. "I have to admit, as much as I don't like pushing things. They have finally p* me off, and I am going after it like a pit bull. I am really not interested in playing the nice guy anymore, and I am going to keep doing whatever I can on my own. I may actually rent the dumpster on my own." Listen....they've even pissed ME off!....and I don't even have to LIVE with them! Well, anyway, here's your crux problem: "I don't like pushing things". If you'd managed to gain more practise at asserting yourself, thus lost the discomfort with it, before entering the marriage, you wouldn't have suffered quite as much as you have and nor for such a long time. Saying that, things usually happen, including when they do, for a reason (actually, all do) so.... What I want to know - ref realising you having similarities with her mother - is: who is SHE similar to, for you? If there is someone (or a cocktail of individuals - have a really hard think), then I'll know what the reason was. ********************** 4. "They have finally p* me off, and I am going after it like a pit bull. I am really not interested in playing the nice guy anymore," Pit bull? I think you mean, with such determination. Your next sentance belongs in the same drawer as these beauts: - My horrid ex was blonde...That's the last time I ever go out with a blonde! - Guns kill. - The chair fell over. - Getting drunk turns normally nice people into vile a-holes. Nay. You were not the nice guy. You were, IN THE EXCLUSIVE CONTEXT OF LIVING WITH TYPES LIKE THIS, the "too nice" guy. These types take advantage of niceness, including generosity. So you have to take that into account. Right now, you've gone from 2 on the (confrontations/tackling-it) dial up to 11. Fine. Get that out of your system (and house). But after that, again with these types, you want to have the dial's default setting at 8 (with other normals, 5 is the goal). It's called Balance. This case, because that will out-weigh their passive-resistance, which is set at 7, just enough. About the house tidiness, I mean. Her resistance came in noteably quickly, though, which, along with Mr Man undoing your work AS you were still doing it (incredible!), doesn't exactly fill me with hope when it comes to - the minute you've finished clearing and re-arranging everything, those two won't just start filling the house back up again...in typically p-a style, which is, like the Mess-Making Fairies actually DID do it, while you were all asleep....`tiny bit here, tiny bit there, tiny bit more here, tiny bit more there....... "WTF?!". However, your own efforts are impressive so..... And if you don't MIND being manager-dadda to two overgrown babies with adult bodies, as par for your course? I guess we'll continue to see how it goes. *********************** I'd like to ask outright, now, please: does this man contribute formally (e.g. monthly standing order) to the household income - OR enough to at least cover what he costs? (...which, I'm sure, will still be well below what living in a sheltered home or the like, would cost him). Also, does your wife's business bring in a worthwhile monthly income?

What's it like where you are? Are you in the UK? I live in the US, specifically in Utah. Mostly desert and mountains out here. Our temperatures have been ranging from high 90's to over 100° lately. Thankfully we have central air conditioning. That helps. ----- I hate to say this, too, but... You must feel like you've been somehow, somewhat conned into this marriage Certainly short-changed? Sometimes, I do feel like I am being ignored or taken for granted. ----- Fair statement? It is fair to say, that I am effected by the clutter far more than they are. ----- What does SHE claim "her way" is? Her way is to sit down and sort things out while reminiscing about items, or talking about what a good deal it was, or trying to fix it if it is broken, or trying to justify keeping it. What I can clear out in 1 hour will take her 6 hours to get halfway done. ----- Well, anyway, here's your crux problem: "I don't like pushing things". I actually have no problem be assertive/aggressive in my everyday life with most people. I tend to be more gentle and understanding with my loved ones. Unfortunately that consistently leads to me being taken advantage of. ----- What I want to know - ref realising you having similarities with her mother - is: who is SHE similar to, for you? If there is someone (or a cocktail of individuals - have a really hard think), then I'll know what the reason was. She actually isn't similar to anyone for me. One of the reasons I was attracted to her is because she is the opposite of most people I know. She is gentle and caring, whereas my upbringing was abusive (to the point of PTSD, that was compounded by experiences when I was a cop) and toxic. Unfortunately I have not come first in years and part of that caring personality seems lost. This woman cries at emotional tv shows, and she is a sympathy crier, crying just because someone else is sad. I broke down crying over this the other day, telling her that I have been upset by this for a decade and she knew it but kept putting her and her fathers desires/laziness first and that I have finally had enough. I even pointed out rentals that I have already been looking at, in case I decide to move out. She didn't get upset, she didn't cry, she didn't even try to comfort me. She just said that she has seen me cry 3 times in our 16 yr marriage (when my grandpa died, when my dog died and this time) and she hated that she caused that. Knowing her it seemed insincere. ----- I'd like to ask outright, now, please: does this man contribute formally (e.g. monthly standing order) to the household income - OR enough to at least cover what he costs? (...which, I'm sure, will still be well below what living in a sheltered home or the like, would cost him). Our house is actually paid off, with a fair amount of thanks going to him. He got a nice life insurance settlement when his wife passed ($100,000) and still has his retirement coming in, plus he got a $20,000 bonus for taking early retirement from the Federal Gov't career. He pays most of the utilities (about $300 a month) and then covers his own personal bills. We pay for all groceries/restaurant trips/vacations and our own bills. ----- Also, does your wife's business bring in a worthwhile monthly income? My wife makes about $60,000 a year. Which is a decent wage in our area. ----- Since the blowout with my wife, she has since ordered a dumpster to be delivered. And she seems to be making a real effort to get rid of the clutter, even going so far as to have her younger sister help her (the one with 6 kids). While I don't see "eye to eye" with her sister on some things we have always gotten along well and treat each other more like brother/sister when it comes to a personal relationship. And while she has 6 kids, she does keep a clean house. So she is well suited to this task, and unlike my wife has no problem telling her dad no. I have some optimism right now, but I am trying to stop myself from getting too excited about the progress as I keep expecting it to collapse.

Looking back at it, I didn't fully explain my father in laws contribution to the household. While he did get those large payments in, he only put maybe $15,000 towards paying off the house. The rest went into a retirement account that pays him a dividend monthly.

Bear with...I want to give this my full attention so I'll either respond tomorrow or Sat. PS: I bloody LOVED your reply to Should I Be Worried!

PS: I bloody LOVED your reply to Should I Be Worried! Well, thank you! Lol

Tomorrow or Sat, my arse. Sorry about that - RL probs crashed in (not mine, friends'). Here are the things that are striking me as I read.. 1. "Well, anyway, here's your crux problem: "I don't like pushing things". I actually have no problem be assertive/aggressive in my everyday life with most people. I tend to be more gentle and understanding with my loved ones. Unfortunately that consistently leads to me being taken advantage of." Your instinct to leave the hunting-ground aggression at the hunting-ground and not take it home or even let it leak out at home, is correct and healthy marital/family behaviour (sense of social responsibility aka pro social). That your healthy-male behaviour has been getting you a gradual eroding of your sense of integrity (in this context, aka mental charge completing its route to discharge, aka "what goes up, comes down") is nothing to do with you and all - literally ALL - to do with the recipients. Right Qualities (yours), Wrong Recipients. Do not change. Bend a bit, yes. But no bending-over-backwards, especially as you approach the Autumn years (crack!...paralysed). However, you sound as if you're pretty bendy-backed right now, and willing to put up with the on-off childish and defensive responses, just as long as wife and FIL cease shedding mess and clutter around the house all the time. Is that right? Or is that right just for now and your eyes are newly very much on whether they behave better too? What are your thoughts? If it is - well, it sounds as if wife's on-board now. So let's see if SHE can be the influencer over her father for a change (because I think it's safe to say, he clearly won't let you be)? That'll be interesting, then, won't it? Another space to watch... ""to the point of PTSD, that was compounded by experiences when I was a cop"" Not surprised you were a cop - makes sense. It's about keeping order for a start, eh!...says it all. Wanted to be one myself, briefly...but then I discovered crime (just joking, mwa-ha). And, yeah I know, I've hung out with a heck of a lot of coppers in my time, socially and professionally, where, a friendly game of cards over a JD at mine on a Friday night, would inevitably end up with one of them bursting into tears (e.g. had found a little old lady dead in her flat)...all of them sometimes. They, and yourself, have my utmost respect (salutes). You've got to have a BIG nurturing instinct to do that job- sorry, vocation. I think you've been doing what all intelligent-healthies do (are fortunately for them, CAPABLE of doing), since all that trauma: recovering then growing (no doubt making up for lost ground...a growth spurt if you like), over the last however many decades and finally feel capable of putting your foot down and policing your OWN district....you're just too big, now, to put up with being taken for granted and ignored, especially with your chosen lifestyle (organised - again, healthy aka Feng Shui LOL), because, again, she DID advertise and demonstrate for too long that she was "me too!" into keeping the house nice. Therefore, she doesn't have to like it, she just has to keep fulfilling an obligaton she made (...bit like stupidly faking orgasm, eh...get stuck with all those moves forever, duuh?). She's gonna have to fake it again...until she makes it (it becomes a natural habit).. Anyway, your new mantra is: Own oxygen mask first, before helping others on with theirs. So FIL put in a cash sum of 15k dollars, since when, he's been paying you 300 dollars rent per month. All lodgers-sharers are expected to buy their own food etc. so that's immaterial - UNLESS he contributes to your two's food and toiletries too...which he doesn't - to wit: "We pay for all groceries/restaurant trips/vacations and our own bills." You do know that some parents/in-laws are known to make lump sum gifts to their kids, even when they're not intending to move in with them, i.e. just because they can and want to? (It doesn't matter how old they get, your babies are your babies and you never stop wanting to help them and give them lifts. It's just natural). And have you DONE the maths on what he costs you (15k divded by, so far, 120 months PLUS whenever he began paying 300pcm) versus what he contributes, and taking into account likely tenure still to come? Yyyyyeeeah,...I still don't really like him, Sam-I-Am. He sounds as if he does things only to get things, and that, he gives with one hand and takes away with the other. Again - fair statement? PS I'm going to say it before I forget: I also 'bloody love` that you can cry! Woohoo! More healthies like that one, please, Bartender-in-the-sky! I'll bet that's why you heal so well, in fact I'd bet my car on it. That and the intelligence to make the most of this place. I think you've got all the tools but have just finally, properly, climbed off the matrix and discovered your problem is just, you're LIVING with a couple of tools, really?...lol...know what I mean? But you don't have kids on your plate so...at least your giant, paternal nurturing drive is getting some use, I suppose? ...Every cloud? Thing is...usually what happens (oh this happens everywhere, don't you worry) is that once the DISTRACTIONS (messes) are no longer there, your attention then turns to whatever NEXT habitual thing is domestically/maritally/interpersonally unacceptable. Beware of that and be ready for it. It's an in-tray, you see. You (your mind) start uppermost and work your way down. So what I'm saying is, don't be surprised if getting organised doesn't quite do it, or not for long enough (brace-brace-brace!). Forewarned is forearmed and all that? Now to your wife: She obviously can empathise. But not so much with or over you these days. She gave you only cognitive empathy, there. So she does CARE about you. I think it would be very sensible to EITHER: (a) seek a marriage counselling course (aim, to be shown how to get back in touch and, hopefully, in-love again) (b) start a regular, once-fortnightly or monthly Friday/Saturday night, romantic dinner out (or more if you can afford it), for example. You need to get OUT of that cave, lose your over-familiarity (oh, you have to both dress-up a bit) due to the unfamiliar setting and venue, whilst on your best behaviour, etc. (Candlelit tables are best.) Or whatever out-of-the-house activity you both enjoy (but mainly her...this is you dating her again...and meanwhile gving her safe ways to get her way (lol, give the toddler your car-keys if you want the remote-control back without a 'fight'). Deliberately try new foods/dishes and share plates. Feed her with your fork. (If you want any more tips - I gats thousands.) Even if the two of you are mostly only doing it by rote - it'll still take on a life of its own and take off again, just like it did before. A flame is a flame and fuel is fuel and that's all there is to it. The new date night can be passed off (if you like - at first) as your joint reward for having kept the house clutter-free for another week/fortnight. If you meet with any resistance - she can choose the restaurant, now and every time (within reason) (don't worry, she'll eventually run out of ideas and it'll be your turn). (c) Have a wee separation...a little holiday from one another. The idea of separation is scary as uck, which is soooo infuriatingly frustrating to me when I know first, second and third-hand that in reality, it's a bloody Godsend. It's like a bloody magic wand! I think it would have more power if she were the one to move out for a few weeks...let her see, WITHOUT her father's support or two-pennethworth, what life without you, and as a divorcee, (and with her own mess steadily collecting around her) is like. A hotel stay, e.g.? Meanwhile you'll get to keep the new standard kept via your automatic 'influence' on his father....see if you two bond and start to see eye-to-eye or anywhere towards the opposite. I think you'd have less resistance if you dressed up her break in the form of a foreign holiday or spa respite somewhere leafy (with a stack of good books)? Or bide your time a bit longer before you decide whether and what, and meanwhile, try to remember your wooing strategies from when you met her and just start to implement them here and there, see if it has positive effect? The good thing is, she won't find it weird or suspect because she'll more than likely put your new joie de vivre down to the cleaner, tidier abode (I'm good, aren' I, LOL). I think that's it for now, but I'll add more as it pings in. Meantime: Noted that wife's sister has no probs telling him No. Undoubtedly why he didn't choose HER to live with, eh. So wifey is Yessy and you were distracte or still half-asleep (in your head, sorting the baggage, focused on work as your White Noise for doing so) and FIL though, Yup they'll do me! Haha...they always, always, always underestimate us. Just because when they first meet us we're a bit low, they think that, like THEM, we'll ALWAYS be down there. Because, they don't change/want to change so project that onto those they set their sights on. He must be getting WELL disillusioned and pissed-off by now - think about it! Maybe he'll eventually decide your home is not for him after all? Because, it's true - we always forget that nothing is entirely up to us. There's that third hand out there that can sweep in, aka Circumstances and Events out of our control, completely unannounced, change everything for the better, and have you kicking yourself for having forgotten that.

PS: No, no, DON'T keep thinking it'll collapse! Think it will succeed but equally (- not literally) could collapse. Otherwise, if you focus on the incoming cars, you're arms will do your eyes' bidding and drive you and your car into them. Don't focus too far ahead, either, or you'll miss a child or dog running into the road right in front of you. Don't focus right in front of you or you'll lack sufficient warning of any potential problems up ahead. Mid-ground. You're aware of every incoming and can be certain of success DESPITE also always remaining aware that an accident still could happen. For prime example made a sick reality that caught on about a decade or so ago (think motorway bridges and narc idiots): something could crash in from ABOVE (and that's Fate/God/whatever). So, logically, by keeping yourself and everything balanced - you have Ahead, Behind, Left, Right covered, leaving only Above or From Below for things out of your control. The latter is too unlikely so you have One Fifth chance of failing (in theory). From Above represents, her refusing to change (back) or heat (back) up. But I think I've seen enough to conclude that she IS responsive and receptive (still a flame). Personally, I think it will. Because ADDING to that is the fact that you've got it in you (high-energied). This (bit) is a half-marathon. All it depends on is your strength holding out AND not doing yourself an injury in the process by pushing yourself too hard. Let's be honest - you're the type who has his nose in everything, you NEED to see this through and know the outcome. If it fails (it, the strategy, not you, never forget that), you need to know you did your best out of everything that was in your power to do (so that you can walk away - or just emotionally walk away - with a clean conscience). And if it succeeds - well....SOMEBODY'S going to get a massive power-surge? (That's alright, though - yuo can handle power, already know it's just another word for responsibility.) Here - you could maybe change your alias to Chief Bottle Washer? LOL Says it all, doesn't it? Yeah, well, join the club. (Meh)

However, you sound as if you're pretty bendy-backed right now, and willing to put up with the on-off childish and defensive responses, just as long as wife and FIL cease shedding mess and clutter around the house all the time. Is that right? Or is that right just for now and your eyes are newly very much on whether they behave better too? What are your thoughts? My hill to climb right now has a few obstacles. Getting the house tidy, so I can start doing some renovations. And making sure it stays tidy afterwards. Plus, keeping our marriage on the right track, which requires us getting closer and putting each other first again. We actually stayed at a hotel this weekend to get some time alone and we did have the rest of the extended family come up for a play date in the pool as well. It was a good weekend, a couple of hiccups between the wife and I but it will take time to get us back to where we need to be. I don't particularly care how father in law acts in the future, so long as my marriage and house is stable, we should be able to handle anything. ----- And have you DONE the maths on what he costs you (15k divded by, so far, 120 months PLUS whenever he began paying 300pcm) versus what he contributes, and taking into account likely tenure still to come? I know that he hasn't been that helpful, but I am not going to hold monetary aid (or lack thereof) against him. I have to be able to live with myself, and hounding family for money goes against the grain for me. I know pitching in more would be the right thing to do, but it honestly just isn't that important to me. ----- I think it would be very sensible to EITHER: (a) seek a marriage counselling course (aim, to be shown how to get back in touch and, hopefully, in-love again) (b) start a regular, once-fortnightly or monthly Friday/Saturday night, romantic dinner out (or more if you can afford it), for example. You need to get OUT of that cave, lose your over-familiarity (oh, you have to both dress-up a bit) due to the unfamiliar setting and venue, whilst on your best behaviour, etc. (Candlelit tables are best.) Or whatever out-of-the-house activity you both enjoy (but mainly her...this is you dating her again...and meanwhile gving her safe ways to get her way (lol, give the toddler your car-keys if you want the remote-control back without a 'fight'). We actually have a marriage seminar on DVD (about 8 hours), that we have watched before and it did seem to help. Maybe we have to rewatch it. As for date night, we used to do that quite regularly. With our busy work schedules plus the expensive economy, we don't have dates nearly as often as we used to. I have been thinking that it is time to start that back up. ----- (c) Have a wee separation...a little holiday from one another. The idea of separation is scary as uck, which is soooo infuriatingly frustrating to me when I know first, second and third-hand that in reality, it's a bloody Godsend. It's like a bloody magic wand! We have sort of had one already. I think it is partially to blame for some of these problems. It didn't really effect me, but I wonder if she started using defensive mechanisms to cope. Since she works days and I work nights, we usually only see each other on my days off, before I go to work, or she'll come have dinner with me at work. Well she got assigned a bunch of overtime for "year end" as she has an accounting job and the books need to balance at end of year, I also took a bunch of overtime as she'd be either working or sleeping anyways. Figured I might as well make some extra cash during those 2 weeks. So for 2 weeks, we practically never saw each other even though we were in the same house. Maybe 15 minutes a day at most. ----- Yes, I am worried that things will fail. BUT I am not giving up. I don't care how stubborn they get, or what hurdles get in our way, I am going to fight through every last bit of it until our marriage and our house is where it should be. This is important, and as such I will not give up. I know it is going to be a lot of work, and I am going to have to stay vigilant. Because, like they say, "anything worth having is worth fighting for".

P.S. I hope everything worked out with your friend.

Heya! Sorry for the delay as usual - cuh!...hard to believe I used to have the time to message here on a daily basis. That was pre-Brexit-Etctera, of course. "However, you sound as if you're pretty bendy-backed right now, and willing to put up with the on-off childish and defensive responses, just as long as wife and FIL cease shedding mess and clutter around the house all the time. Is that right? Or is that right just for now and your eyes are newly very much on whether they behave better too? What are your thoughts? My hill to climb right now has a few obstacles. Getting the house tidy, so I can start doing some renovations. And making sure it stays tidy afterwards. Plus, keeping our marriage on the right track, which requires us getting closer and putting each other first again. We actually stayed at a hotel this weekend to get some time alone and we did have the rest of the extended family come up for a play date in the pool as well. It was a good weekend, a couple of hiccups between the wife and I but it will take time to get us back to where we need to be. I don't particularly care how father in law acts in the future, so long as my marriage and house is stable, we should be able to handle anything." DO some or get some done? Did you - stay at a hotel? Cor, you don't mess around when you decide to do something, do you! Really glad it was overall successful, but what sorts of hiccups? "I don't particularly care how father in law acts in the future, so long as my marriage and house is stable, we should be able to handle anything." Confidently put! You really bounce back quickly, don't you! ----- "And have you DONE the maths on what he costs you (15k divded by, so far, 120 months PLUS whenever he began paying 300pcm) versus what he contributes, and taking into account likely tenure still to come? I know that he hasn't been that helpful, but I am not going to hold monetary aid (or lack thereof) against him. I have to be able to live with myself, and hounding family for money goes against the grain for me. I know pitching in more would be the right thing to do, but it honestly just isn't that important to me." "Hound" him? Hahaha...Now, listen, Occifer Tricksie, you may be a cop but I'm a bloody know-it-all LOL. You can't fool me with your "hounding". Nobody suggested hounding or anything even remotely similar. In fact, I was thinking more along the lines of, INFORMING him that his rent will (quote) Obviously have to go up to-suit (cost of living crisis ring any bells?). Or at least having a sit-down discussion about it. So I think what you meant to reply was, "AWKS!". And, yes, it is - or can be...depends on how you handle it. Well, it's your prerogative, obviously. Saying that, the way the economy(s) is going, at some point soon you might have to? Cos I'd bet my car he won't do more pitching-in, lol. (..That or my Gazillions, my acres and fleet of private yachts LOL LOL......Did you see it?...on (cough!) that other thread? :-D I was sooo tempted to just burst in there with a melodramatic, "OMG, YOU'RE GORGEOUS, TAKE ME, TAKE ME NOW!!!" LOL LOL) ----- "I think it would be very sensible to EITHER: (a) seek a marriage counselling course (aim, to be shown how to get back in touch and, hopefully, in-love again) (b) start a regular, once-fortnightly or monthly Friday/Saturday night, romantic dinner out (or more if you can afford it), for example. You need to get OUT of that cave, lose your over-familiarity (oh, you have to both dress-up a bit) due to the unfamiliar setting and venue, whilst on your best behaviour, etc. (Candlelit tables are best.) Or whatever out-of-the-house activity you both enjoy (but mainly her...this is you dating her again...and meanwhile gving her safe ways to get her way (lol, give the toddler your car-keys if you want the remote-control back without a 'fight'). We actually have a marriage seminar on DVD (about 8 hours), that we have watched before and it did seem to help. Maybe we have to rewatch it. As for date night, we used to do that quite regularly. With our busy work schedules plus the expensive economy, we don't have dates nearly as often as we used to. I have been thinking that it is time to start that back up." Sounds like a good DVD! Yes, it may be one of those cases where you can't afford to NOT afford it. Saying that: picnic by a lake, feed ducks afterwards (you can even do a moonlit one, with candles or solar lights...tres romantique and quite surreal but in a good way!)....pub walk ending in Sunday roast... strawberry picking or just farm-shopping or food fayres..... pub garden, game of cards for money (small change).... Things like that which don't need a lot of dosh? ----- "(c) Have a wee separation...a little holiday from one another. The idea of separation is scary as uck, which is soooo infuriatingly frustrating to me when I know first, second and third-hand that in reality, it's a bloody Godsend. It's like a bloody magic wand! We have sort of had one already. I think it is partially to blame for some of these problems. It didn't really effect me, but I wonder if she started using defensive mechanisms to cope. Since she works days and I work nights, we usually only see each other on my days off, before I go to work, or she'll come have dinner with me at work. Well she got assigned a bunch of overtime for "year end" as she has an accounting job and the books need to balance at end of year, I also took a bunch of overtime as she'd be either working or sleeping anyways. Figured I might as well make some extra cash during those 2 weeks. So for 2 weeks, we practically never saw each other even though we were in the same house. Maybe 15 minutes a day at most." No, I meant actual Separation. It's completely different, trust me. But no matter, since you've decided to go the wooing route (which gets you bigger points in my little ledger, in fact, for Positivity and Proactivity). ----- "Yes, I am worried that things will fail. BUT I am not giving up. I don't care how stubborn they get, or what hurdles get in our way, I am going to fight through every last bit of it until our marriage and our house is where it should be. This is important, and as such I will not give up. I know it is going to be a lot of work, and I am going to have to stay vigilant.". Oh, I'M not. I was just allowing for the slim possibility, for the record. And I KNOW you are. I KNOW it is, and I KNOW you won't. Possibly not, actually! "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance" - Wossisface Emerson Thingumy (I said know-it-all not recall-it-all LOL...too sweaty to Google...) "Because, like they say, "anything worth having is worth fighting for" ...'YOU GOTTA FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT FOR THIS LOVE, YOU GOTTA FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT...' (last hit of Cheryl Versini-Bikini-Lambhourgini, wasn't it?) LOL, cheers for the singalong! Keep keeping me kept posted, shall be watching your progress with interest (myself and however many lurkers).

Did you - stay at a hotel? Cor, you don't mess around when you decide to do something, do you! I have a very "black or white" personality. If I decide to do something, I go all in and it will take an awful lot to make me give up on it. ----- Really glad it was overall successful, but what sorts of hiccups? We were there for 3 nights, and had 2 days when we had time to go out and do stuff by ourselves. Both days she encouraged me to sleep instead, whether due to a concern that I get enough sleep because of my night shift schedule or because she just didn't want to go out to do things with, remains to be seen. She was also kind of snippy at one point, but I called her on it and we moved on. ----- Confidently put! You really bounce back quickly, don't you! I've had to fight for pretty much everything in my life. This is just one more battle. ----- As for updates, our dumpster will be delivered this weekend. So we are going to have to find a spot to put it. I'm thinking in one of father in laws car spots (he has 3 cars [2 that don't run] and a motorcycle). Apparently he has told my wife that he would like me to help sell his 2 cars that don't run and his motorcycle. I have been offering to do this for years. I explained to her that I no longer have the time to invest in selling his vehicles, as we are pushing hard on getting the house cleaned and then starting renovations. I would be more than willing to throw them on trailers and take them to the junkyard though. I haven't heard anything else, but I am pretty sure he would be irritated with that answer lol.

That's not Black Or White, that's All Or Nothing. That's good! "We were there for 3 nights, and had 2 days when we had time to go out and do stuff by ourselves. Both days she encouraged me to sleep instead, whether due to a concern that I get enough sleep because of my night shift schedule or because she just didn't want to go out to do things with, remains to be seen. She was also kind of snippy at one point, but I called her on it and we moved on." Oh. Presumbly you both caught up on your sleep? What a waste of a hotel break, though. Bit weird? What reason did she give for her snippiness? "Confidently put! You really bounce back quickly, don't you! I've had to fight for pretty much everything in my life. This is just one more battle." Know the feeling! PS: You gotta fight, fight, fight, fight... LOL "As for updates, our dumpster will be delivered this weekend. So we are going to have to find a spot to put it. I'm thinking in one of father in laws car spots (he has 3 cars [2 that don't run] and a motorcycle). " Oh, great...Another annoying over-entitlement of his: taking up parking space - and for what? SI mean, bloody Nora, there's Hoarding and then there's that! Is this a guestship or a bleedin' takeover? I'm gobsmacked - the little shocks in terms of his giant liberty-taking just keep coming. Did you AGREE to his taking up three-and-a-half parking spaces? And if you did, was that after-the-fact or pre-agreed? If you've been telling him for ages, in vain, then, clearly he can't be arsed and was hoping his procrastination would result in you losing patience and just doing it FOR him. Well, look, it's your property and your land. And frankly, you could have been renting it out to commuters or something, that entire time. If ("if" - hah!) he's had too many chances - yes, just sell them quickly for parts and scrap, you can get a decent amount of wedge, still? Or give him a deadline of one more month if he suddenly pipes up that he wants to sell them as operable/fixable motors? Wouldn't put it past him. "but I am pretty sure he would be irritated with that answer lol" Well, that'd be fair enough, considering he's the most irritating character I've come across for a long time - must be the same for you, surely? (After you with the wet kipper!)

I am surprised to hear back from you so rapidly. Hopefully things are getting better for you! ----- Presumbly you both caught up on your sleep? Yes, plenty of sleep was had. ----- What a waste of a hotel break, though. Bit weird? I agree. Stayed away for 3 days and it seemed like all we did was sleep. Hardly worth it. ----- What reason did she give for her snippiness? She didn't give a reason. Just said she didn't mean it in a negative way and that she was joking. I don't know many guys that would be ok with their partner insulting the size of their "member" though. ----- On the topic of her not wanting to do things that weekend, maybe she just was feeling lazy. She does want to go to our town festival this weekend. I just have to make sure we stay on point and get the dumpster set up first, as we can't falter on the work just for some fun. ----- Oh, great...Another annoying over-entitlement of his: taking up parking space - and for what? This will really annoy you then lol. We have 6 parking spots in our driveway. He has 3 cars, 1 motorcycle, 1 atv, and a flat bed trailer. He actually has to park his 1 running truck and his trailer on the street, as he is taking up too much room in the driveway. The atv he parks at his other daughters property. ----- Did you AGREE to his taking up three-and-a-half parking spaces? And if you did, was that after-the-fact or pre-agreed? No agreements were really made. These are the vehicles he had at the time, and he had to bring them with him. Supposedly he was going to fix them....but obviously that has never happened. I do know he approaches everything passive-aggressively. He also knows that I do a lot of the work on my own vehicles. So maybe, he figured that if they sat around long enough, I would just fix them. ----- Well, that'd be fair enough, considering he's the most irritating character I've come across for a long time - must be the same for you, surely? I have dealt with many people that are much worse lol. They are openly and aggressively annoying. He prefers the sneakier, lazier approach. Probably to see how much he can get away with, and to avoid confrontation. ----- Another update. My sister in law was nice enough to come over while I was sleeping (didn't even know she was coming over or I would have stayed awake to help), and help my wife clear out and organize the area around the piano (her fathers piano), and has expressed an interest in taking the piano to her house to have her children learn it. So hopefully that big waste of space piano, will soon be out of the house!

"I am surprised to hear back from you so rapidly. Hopefully things are getting better for you!" Not really, no, I just managed to finish something faster than expected so found myself with a wee window. I was as surprised as you! But thanks, anyway. :) ************** I'm a bit disturbed and concerned with what you report, sadly. It's this little package... When you throw it all together, it doesn't look very good: ""What a waste of a hotel break, though. Bit weird?-" "I agree. Stayed away for 3 days and it seemed like all we did was sleep. Hardly worth it."" ----- ""What reason did she give for her snippiness? " "She didn't give a reason. Just said she didn't mean it in a negative way and that she was joking. I don't know many guys that would be ok with their partner insulting the size of their "member" though."" No way would anyone ever consider that comment/statement a joke. It's not remotely funny, it is just HURTFUL. It's an attack on your emotional equilibrium. And - BECAUSE it's something considered so incredibly Off Limits for saying to one's lover/spouse - hence, DOESN'T, EVER, in a healthy one - it is characteristic of narcissism. Making an highly core-wounding, derogatory remark like that can achieve nothing but to cause psychological injury. So - correct - I don't know many that would be ok with it, either. Some would call that a dealbreaker or at least grounds for a "written warning". It was a disgusting, unconscionable thing to say to someone you're supposed to love (or even ONCE loved) and care about. I just couldn't, not under any circumstance, not even if white-hot furious and not even if I were trying to get myself "fired" (which it's too damned cowardly for me). IT IS PUNCHING HARD BELOW THE BELT AND A RECOGNISED RELATIONSHIP TABOO. Plus, whether she knows this and is why she said it? - it begs the question: smaller/paler/whatever, compared to WHAT - WHOSE? Is there a Who or is she just trying to make you wonder if there could be? (Trust me, this suspicion would have occurred to you independently at some point soon.) Whichever - why hint? To make you feel worried and insecure = less sure of yourself (like you've lately been demonstrating)? To bring you back down a peg (or 5) because you're making her work to hard or just authoratively asserting your rights "too much" lately? And then we have: doesn't want to engage much on your rare, secluded little weekend away but does want to go to your local festival this weekend. So, all 'up for it' if other people are going to be there, rather than a one-on-one? I mean, that bit would be understandable were this still simply about having lost closeness. Or about her having collected up a bucketful of resentment as a result of that. But - no... Potential Dealbreaker. Putting the relationship at risk. *********** "He prefers the sneakier, lazier approach. Probably to see how much he can get away with, and to avoid confrontation." Yeah? Evidently, so does she. I hate being the one to have to suggest this possibility (whichever one - hurtful truth or dirty tactic). I'm really sorry, Aka. Even if all she's trying to do is manipulatively re-gain the lion's share of power that you've only just managed to wrest back - to choose that as her route/method, still isn't good. Like I say - it's going too far. Even if a normal, healthy, sane woman had over the years become brimming with resentment, she still wouldn't stoop THAT incredibly low. For me, in the context of "on top of everything else, including from your father, for the last decade at least", it would be grounds for instant divorce, specifically, Unreasonable Behaviour. I, personally, could give her the benefit of the doubt were I to presume that, perhaps she took your recent statement (about moving-out and getting your own flat) as a dirty tactical threat, rather than the genuine ultimatum it was? Or maybe DID recognise it was the latter, and this horrid, apparently uncalled-for attack was her very stupid idea of how to deal with it? But I still can't turn any potential reason or intent innocent and healthy because - IT'S A TABOO AND LIKELY DEALBREAKER! All a woman in her position has the right to do, if she'd thought (or saw it?) you were threatening her to control her, say, would be - to approach you at a good moment to honestly and directly express those concerns to you, like a beeping NORMAL ADULT. (That's possible with you, yes?) Not bloody well play deeply spiteful mind-games like a 12-year-old schoolgirl bully in the beeping playground. (It appears, that - oh, you do have a child, actually!) Also, if she had ever had a problem with your appendange I doubt she'd have committed to spending the rest of her life to it. So it's rot. But it's not about that, is it...it's about, what will really hurt you...or hurt you "back". ----- And then next we have - it's half your house and home yet apparently not your right to be informed when visitors are due to call, to wit: ""Another update. My sister in law was nice enough to come over while I was sleeping (didn't even know she was coming over or I would have stayed awake to help),"" Well, surely she'd have taken it "as read", like everyone else in that scenario, that if you were awake there'd be three of you, instead of two (many hands make light work, and all that)? So what does that leave her 'saying', if not, that she wanted to be alone with her sister? What are your thoughts? ******************** Meanwhile, allow me to re-inflate your ego as a gender-unbiased neutral: You've done nothing wrong but finally wake up and start standing up far more fully for yourself. Even IF you'd been a bit sudden and full-on with it for her to be able to cope with, there are still no acceptable excuses - none - for how she is (failing to) respond to you, all topped-off with that unconscionable attack on the core of your confidence and sexual self-esteem that most women wouldn't stoop to nor step over to (the dark side). You need to insist on an evening at the pub (or just away from the house and in public) to, no holds barred, 'confront' her over this ludicrously, needlessly and avoidably cruel and unkind behaviour towards you, her husband, and insist you be allowed to get to the bottom of it until you are satisfied. In other words, give her a fair trial. If she refuses to take the stand....well, you know how the rest of that whole process goes, don't you. But you, Sir (salute!), from what I can see (waaaaayyyyy deeper than the average - worst pigging luck) are a kind, empathetic, giving, considerate, amiable, effing hard-working, witty, intelligent, upstanding, pigging-beeping Diamond of a young gentleman that so-ho-ho-ho-ho(!!! bangs forehead on desk!) manyyyyyyyy(!) women your age would be CHUFFED to be married to. And would never-ever-EVER - even DREAM - of treating you so nastily. So up hers..frankly. I remain here for you for as long as it takes to turn this around or put it to bed. But, hell, if THAT UP THERE is your re-starting point - you've got a serious workload ahead of you. Have the talk and see if the next step has to be Counselling.

Do respond first, though. Let's get you back in tip-top condition before you do or decide a thing.

Sorry: "Even if all she's trying to do is manipulatively re-gain the lion's share of power that you've only just managed to wrest back " Should have read: Even if all she's trying to do is manipulatively re-gain the lion's share of power BY AGGRESSIVELY SNATCHING AT YOURS, that you've only just managed to ¡wrest back.

Plus, whether she knows this and is why she said it? - it begs the question: smaller/paler/whatever, compared to WHAT - WHOSE? This is something I have often wondered. She claims to have been a virgin when we married (not that I care either way), but I didn't feel the hymen break and I have felt that before. Why lie? Also I have actually followed her before and showed up as a surprise at places she has been. Never any surprises. So I just figured it was a symptom of some PTSD I picked up in my life (rough childhood, plus someone tried to kill me when I was in law enforcement). ----- And then we have: doesn't want to engage much on your rare, secluded little weekend away but does want to go to your local festival this weekend. So, all 'up for it' if other people are going to be there, rather than a one-on-one? I mean, that bit would be understandable were this still simply about having lost closeness. Or about her having collected up a bucketful of resentment as a result of that. But - no... Potential Dealbreaker. Putting the relationship at risk. She is actually talking about not even going to the fair now. Partially understandable as we just had another heat wave hit. But that still doesn't explain the lack of interest in going to watch a movie (that she wanted to see btw) in a nice air conditioned theater while we were on vacation. ----- All a woman in her position has the right to do, if she'd thought (or saw it?) you were threatening her to control her, say, would be - to approach you at a good moment to honestly and directly express those concerns to you, like a beeping NORMAL ADULT. (That's possible with you, yes?) Yes. I have always encouraged her to talk to me about anything and everything. ----- So what does that leave her 'saying', if not, that she wanted to be alone with her sister? What are your thoughts? Honestly? I'm not even surprised lol. She has never been good at communication. ----- But you, Sir (salute!), from what I can see (waaaaayyyyy deeper than the average - worst pigging luck) are a kind, empathetic, giving, considerate, amiable, effing hard-working, witty, intelligent, upstanding, pigging-beeping Diamond of a young gentleman that so-ho-ho-ho-ho(!!! bangs forehead on desk!) manyyyyyyyy(!) women your age would be CHUFFED to be married to. And would never-ever-EVER - even DREAM - of treating you so nastily. I appreciate that. I have tried very hard in my life to become the kind of man, that I can respect. But I am also a realist lol. I am 5'6", stocky, with a gut and balding lol. Most gals wouldn't give me a 2nd glance nowadays.

The usual Sorrys. (Mehhhh...what few contractors are still over here couldn't run a bath!) But more so this time because, that wasn't good news and I've been aware I needed to be here when you posted. Well, I'm here now so, I'll get on with it... ************************* "Plus, whether she knows this and is why she said it? - it begs the question: smaller/paler/whatever, compared to WHAT - WHOSE? This is something I have often wondered. She claims to have been a virgin when we married (not that I care either way), but I didn't feel the hymen break and I have felt that before. Why lie? Also I have actually followed her before and showed up as a surprise at places she has been. Never any surprises. So I just figured it was a symptom of some PTSD I picked up in my life (rough childhood, plus someone tried to kill me when I was in law enforcement). I'll BET it is! But what do you mean 'often'. You are not- please- no, do not tell me that this is not the first such insult?!? ********** "And then we have: doesn't want to engage much on your rare, secluded little weekend away but does want to go to your local festival this weekend. So, all 'up for it' if other people are going to be there, rather than a one-on-one? I mean, that bit would be understandable were this still simply about having lost closeness. Or about her having collected up a bucketful of resentment as a result of that. But - no... Potential Dealbreaker. Putting the relationship at risk. She is actually talking about not even going to the fair now. Partially understandable as we just had another heat wave hit. But that still doesn't explain the lack of interest in going to watch a movie (that she wanted to see btw) in a nice air conditioned theater while we were on vacation." Okay - heatwave stopped play. Point stands, though. ...even harder, now you've just told me about the film - AND the extra bonus of air-conditioning! Mate, it may well be that she wants to see it with someone else. Albeit, that doesn't rule out, just didn't want to engage with you (hence encouraging you to sleep)? (Was she asleep that whole time too?) *********** "All a woman in her position has the right to do, if she'd thought (or saw it?) you were threatening her to control her, say, would be - to approach you at a good moment to honestly and directly express those concerns to you, like a beeping NORMAL ADULT. (That's possible with you, yes?) Yes. I have always encouraged her to talk to me about anything and everything." Clearly hasn't worked, has it. Maybe it's more about what can't be said, than being too timid to say it? It's all fitting, isn't it. :( *********** So what does that leave her 'saying', if not, that she wanted to be alone with her sister? What are your thoughts? Honestly? I'm not even surprised lol. She has never been good at communication. ----- "But you, Sir (salute!), from what I can see (waaaaayyyyy deeper than the average - worst pigging luck) are a kind, empathetic, giving, considerate, amiable, effing hard-working, witty, intelligent, upstanding, pigging-beeping Diamond of a young gentleman that so-ho-ho-ho-ho(!!! bangs forehead on desk!) manyyyyyyyy(!) women your age would be CHUFFED to be married to. And would never-ever-EVER - even DREAM - of treating you so nastily. I appreciate that. I have tried very hard in my life to become the kind of man, that I can respect. But I am also a realist lol. I am 5'6", stocky, with a gut and balding lol. Most gals wouldn't give me a 2nd glance nowadays." And we appreciate you. And so have we. And all our vets with such strong senses of fairness and justice for all. Not the immature ones, no. Not the ones who haven't had their hearts broken more times than most have had hot dinners - USUALLY by the good-looking ones. Nothing like that to teach an empath that all that matters is the Insides - the mind, the heart, the soul. So - do not worry about that and especially don't let it affect how you respond and deal with this. The saying (YES, LADIES LIKE THAT HAVE A SAYING, EVEN - WOOHOO!) goes: I don't care about good looks any more, what I want the next man to have is a Good Heart. You're in! Plus you mustn't overlook the fact that your female counterparts have been aging and losing tone this whole time as well. But after this (if you end up divorcing), the self-kindest and most successful route you could take would be to do what, ironically, teens and young 20s don't like (aka run away from): being Friend Zoned. It's not for the childish thus lazy and impatient, but, that, more often than not, is just a long, leisurely test-drive before the surprise promotion. What's that song by Ella Henderson (Demand creates songwriter Supply): This is real / And it's been right here all along.... (In her case, the heroine of the song didn't realise what her now, understandably over-protective, inner animal had been up to with the FZ-ing, either...and that's very common as well.) In short: the friend zone is the correct pre-dating zone. One has GOT to really, really LIKE their partner, not just fancy them or have mere circumstances in-common. When you RRL them, a switch flicks and you suddenly start feeling feelings for each other. There is plenty of life after divorce. Not least because, in the majority of cases, things can only get better! What a bitch. Sorry. But you didn't even do anything. You were being really, really NICE. That's always the way with her type, though....minding your own business, tra-la-laaa, happy smile....BAM!/STAB! I don't like her, I don't like her dad. Do you? Actually - really? What do you think you'll do? Stupid question, really. You iz a cop...you'll want to solve the crime first, hey. Need an assistant?

PS: All the petite women are your market. Or ones that don't mind or even like being taller. One thing I would say, though. This is a challenge you face. And you should always limber-up for a challenge (think subjecting yourself to the whole X-Factor process), anyway. And then you'll have the side-bonus of FEELING (not being - this is your hang-up, not the women's) more dating- or new-male-best-friend-worthy. Ta-daaaa.

Tsk - I lost a chunk: "This is something I have often wondered. She claims to have been a virgin when we married (not that I care either way), but I didn't feel the hymen break" No, you wouldn't care. Unless you were a 16th Century throwback, unaware of the fact that women no longer ride horses and Penny Farthings side-saddle...which clearly SHE is. This claim, is a common female Sociopath symptom. They (both genders) are misogynistic/misandristic, sexist, chauvenistic DINOSAURS. Women belong in the kitchen, and men are useless (except for putting up shelves). Yes, well, if you're missing large portions of your mentality then you probably WON'T appreciate anything beyond the practical, eh. (Idiots) "and I have felt that before. Why lie? Also I have actually followed her before and showed up as a surprise at places she has been. Never any surprises. So I just figured it was a symptom of some PTSD I picked up in my life (rough childhood, plus someone tried to kill me when I was in law enforcement)." (Crikey, you started young, then?) Yep, why lie. Answer: to make you feel special. It's part of their Grooming (which in NPD lingo is called Love-Bombing (and Gaslighting, type seeming-positive)). You've heard of how paedophiles groom their victims, yes? They make them feel special....unique....one in a million - which to someone starved of attention, affection, etc. is too irresistible for any human in that howevermuch starved state. (This, btw, what is being done to you right now, is being done to husbands all over the shop. It's what (rigidly, scripted-ly) happens when you interact with someone who has this mental illness (usually with Co-Morbidities), but not so severely that they can't do a job of work and pay income tax and VAT (cheers, governments, we little minions will suffer them down here, whilst you and your super-rich, sequestered and protected friends sup your champers, ya?) You followed her? Good for you. EVERYONE NOTE: If you snoop for no reason except for unbeffiting reasons, e.g. wanting to gain Power Over via intel (when power should never factor in a romance or friendship), then, that is not acceptable and puts you in the wrong, worthy of being yelled at for having helped yourself to his/her stuff. If you have good reason, however, i.e. behavioural or concrete evidence - (not verbatim) "You are entitled in any intimate relationship to be constantly given all (timely) data by which to emotionally protect yourself if, and the minute that, your partner is for whatever reason unable or unwilling to continue fulfilling that role (Protector)". In a court of law, it's called Hildebrande Evidence, so you won't find any complaining about that from your lawyer, barrister or Family Court judge! - so don't listen to Narc propaganda (there's a lot of it out there). Never any surprises, huh? Well, what does one call, Here's a film I've been really wanting to see, it's hot and stick so an air-conditioned threatre is just the ticket, we're supposed to be having a lover's or at least besties weekend and have absolutely nothing to stop us and, since this isn't a regular occurrence, really ought to...... Nah, let's just sleep instead....(waits for you to drop off to start texting?). That counts as a surprise. And counts as, don't want to have to spend time with you, despite, if no-one else were spending time with her, and if she still even liked you, she would have that need, even just platonically. She did not. She's being fed elsewhere. Notwithstanding - These failed missions...Have you checked your phone/gadgets for tracker thingumys and apps? Narcs know all about this stuff. Constantly-chtngbstds HAVE to - think about it! Their agenda is to stay married to you, either just long enough to make a seamless leap from your lilypad to A.N Other's (no tiresome swimming in the singles water for these lazy-arses, oh no...everything on a plate for their royal selves!)....OR to remain "with" you long-term because this/that about you is convenient and cushy as well as allows them to (usually) get sneakily richer from being with you. Or to a higher degree than that: you're their job. Literally. She has a job so you're her bonuses, I reckon. She's not another of his victims. (Note she told him off about removing trash from the bin?) She's like him. But more intelligent thus more intelligent about it. Bet he does what SHE says. Like report to her when he notices something awry with you...like your disappearance at the BBQ. Again, this is utterly no reflection on you. You could be Claude Van Damme with Einsteinian intellect and it still wouldn't help ya. They have no use for mushy stuff like genuine relationships. They just know that we do and that behaving "me too!" (like genuinely romantically interested normal-healthies) works. Doesn't work, trying to spot Red Flags anyway - they've usually doped you to the gills (the effect of love-bombing) before they start prodding, poking and slapping you to see what they'll get away with and plan their campaign accordingly, anyway. All there is, is timely, but well-planned, escape once you wake up and realise you're their chained slave in a dungeon. And they don't EVER choose "mingers". If the target-victim isn't conventionally physically attractive then you can bet your house that they've a far more powerful, subliminal form of attractiveness about them...that charisma (called inner strength, special intelligence, confidence and sass, emotional depth, conviction, etc.)....WHATEVER IT IS ABOUT YOU THAT, THEY CAN SEE FROM THE OFF, DRAWS PEOPLE TO YOU (lots of lovely more potential targets or lilypads, innit, and charisma-etcetera by-association of being your squeeze - AND the satisfaction of taking a shiny diamond and roughing it up until, hopefully, it looks like a common stone that gets kicked by feet forever after). So you can cut the I'm too short and paunchy nonsense because I'm betting that is not the star of your show nor ever was, anyway. Maybe it's what your face does when you smile (too)? If you're attractive and/or alluring for a Narc - trust me, you're above-average attractive...and that is that is THAT. Yup, someone trying to kill you would definitely blow your mind and everything you thought you knew and could take for granted, alright. Was it personal (aimed at you specifically) or incidental (i.e. just cos you were the copper at the scene)?

Never been good at communication. No. They like to stay schtum or vague. Information Is Power. They don't want you to have any power. They want it all. They can't abide being with someone in that way, otherwise. (Cuckoo!)

....Oh, soooo many symptom ticks.... Including: doesn't/didn't ever want kids. Must have gauged she didn't need to pretend she did, with you. Probably because she could (predator senses) tell you had such a heaving in-tray yet to sort through before your mental programme could activate (or release) that drive. Spaths don't like kids, but will if they have to, and/or because they work beautifully as extra hooks and guaranteed monthly child support "if ever".

Ignore the statistics, by the way. Those percentages count, only if the narc/spath or psycho were permanently chained to a chair (oh, we wish). They get around (in-secret) A LOT...can have up to as many as fifteen - FIFTEEN! - slaves on the side or on the go (including part-time slaves, obviously) at one time, particularly the Spaths, particularly the vets. In APPLICATION, it works out to what it's always been: anywhere between just over half to two-thirds Normal-Healthy (good..saintly) versus self-serving-user-destroyer Damaged/Broken (bad..evil). Apparently we good-uns needs resistance-type gym equipment to work our halo-muscles against or they'd droop over our eyes and have us bumping into lampposts, getting run-over, falling down holes (what's that, Skippy?). So if anyone's been clocking the stats and thinking - how does that add up, when even in my experience there's my bstd, my bessie's bstd, my next-door-arsehole...? That's how. No more mysterious than a frequent flier as opposed to a once-a-year-holidayer, innit.

Haaang on a cotton pickin' minute! I've just had a Ping!... "She is actually talking about not even going to the fair now. Partially understandable as we just had another heat wave hit. But that still doesn't explain the lack of interest in going to watch a movie (that she wanted to see btw) in a nice air conditioned theater while we were on vacation." Okay - heatwave stopped play. Point stands, though. ...even harder, now you've just told me about the film - AND the extra bonus of air-conditioning! Mate, it may well be that she wants to see it with someone else. Albeit, that doesn't rule out, just didn't want to engage with you (hence encouraging you to sleep)? (Was she asleep that whole time too?) " Nah. She doesn't care about the heat. She proved that when she oddly and needlessly declined your invitation to a lovely air-conditioned threatre to see a film she'd - not 'claimed' - been claiming (I can tell from how you put it, it must have been more than just the once) she really wanted to see. She is fishing. On her phone. Dating or cheating websites. And seemed to have got a bite...from a man who claimed he wanted to see it, or even proposed they could do that on their first date. Hence she seemingly very illogically (all things considered) declined. The chain of events doesn't look so illogical now, does it. And now, the festival she wanted to go to ....she suddenly doesn't. Aye, there are a lot of false dates and broken promises made on your dating websites/apps...par for the course nowadays, has been for about 2 decades, in fact...every long-ish-term user complains bitterly about it. Alternatively - her prospect cancelled her/the cinema and now she's in too much of a flump to fancy it. Whichever. This also now fits - why she was so damned keen to make you sleep most of that weekend away, i.e. totally waste what would normally make a woman thrilled: While the cat was away (in hotel-room Sleepybyes Land), the mouse quietly played (beside him, on her gadget). Makes sense now, huh? All fits. So I hope I'm wrong. Only you know for sure...I'm getting all of this from you, and your in-between-the-linesies, etc. What say you? Have you demanded the evening-out meeting yet?

The usual Sorrys. (Mehhhh...what few contractors are still over here couldn't run a bath!) But more so this time because, that wasn't good news and I've been aware I needed to be here when you posted. Meh, don't fret on it none. Life happens, I get it. I've been dealing with a cold/ear infection for the last few days. So I've been slacking on stuff too lol. ----- I'll BET it is! But what do you mean 'often'. You are not- please- no, do not tell me that this is not the first such insult?!? By often, I would say every few weeks I would show up randomly to "surprise" her at work or other outings. I don't do this now, as I never found any evidence of infidelity and she works from home now. And this is the first time she has ever insulted my "member". ----- Albeit, that doesn't rule out, just didn't want to engage with you (hence encouraging you to sleep)? (Was she asleep that whole time too?) She was taking a nap and then playing on her phone, while I was napping. Honestly, I'm starting to think that she just wasn't thrilled with the way the weekend was going (hotel wasn't as nice as we expected, neither was the pool) and shut down. ----- Clearly hasn't worked, has it. Maybe it's more about what can't be said, than being too timid to say it? She has said before that she is "not good with words, in the moment". And I have to say that it makes sense. She seldom says the right thing when we are having discussions, and quite often has to take time to figure out what she wants to say. Of course, it is also possible that she is just a bad liar in the moment and needs time to fabricate what she thinks I want to hear, and she is not in fact just scatter-brained. ----- I don't like her, I don't like her dad. Do you? Actually - really? I get along with them both, most of the time. I have figured out a large part of their behavioral patterns, to know what to expect. For a long time, I was ok with just side-tracking their poor behavioral patterns. But have now realized that I can no longer tolerate those behaviors, and must forcibly stop these bad habits for the good of all of us. It is a sad realization that I have to lead them out of this, and be forceful in doing so. But I am willing to be the "rock" through this transition.

Yup, someone trying to kill you would definitely blow your mind and everything you thought you knew and could take for granted, alright. Was it personal (aimed at you specifically) or incidental (i.e. just cos you were the copper at the scene)? It was a person with severe mental health issues, that had a blade. I think it just so happened that I came across him on a bad day. After I left law enforcement, I also was involved in a shooting. Luckily, my arrival was enough to send the bad guy running and I didn't need to actually shoot. I am a protector at heart, so I tend to run towards the danger to help folks rather than run away. I must point out here, with the shooting event. My wife actually grabbed a gun and followed me to help, if it was needed. She has certainly caused some drama and heartache in our marriage, but at one time her loyalty and love was shown in a big way. I can't forget that. ----- Must have gauged she didn't need to pretend she did, with you. Probably because she could (predator senses) tell you had such a heaving in-tray yet to sort through before your mental programme could activate (or release) that drive. Spaths don't like kids, but will if they have to, and/or because they work beautifully as extra hooks and guaranteed monthly child support "if ever". She has said that she would be willing to have a baby now....but she's 39 years old. Certainly past her prime for child bearing. And I don't think I have it in me, to raise a child that could come with developmental problems from such a pregnancy. ----- Makes sense now, huh? All fits. So I hope I'm wrong. Only you know for sure...I'm getting all of this from you, and your in-between-the-linesies, etc. What say you? I don't think she has the time honestly. Between working at home, spending time with family, and visiting me at work, I just don't think she has the time for dates. And it would definitely show up as odd behavior.

"Meh, don't fret on it none. Life happens," Okayy, parrdner, Ah shuuure won't! But - See? Look at how kind, caring and considerate you are. I rest me case. (Sorry to hear you've had an ENT virus, though. Next time, I swear by Sudafed, the one containing Ibuprofen, called Dual Max. It keeps you symptom free for up to 4 hours per pill - which, as you near Hour 4 and start to feel shitey again is precisely how you can tell how incredibly well it works!). Question: did your parents regularly (or ever) compliment you on your brains, charisma, looks, physique, strength... - anything? ************* 1. "By often, I would say every few weeks I would show up randomly to "surprise" her at work or other outings. I don't do this now, as I never found any evidence of infidelity and she works from home now." Yes. Works from home now.... From home now.... Yes. VERY convenient. Who pays her mobile bill and gets to see statements of calls received and dialled (- are they even still doing that these days, if one asks)? 2. "And this is the first time she has ever insulted my "member"." Yeah. I recognised that one instantly, sat bolt upright (and yelled, Aww, God...). That sudden leap (downwards) to all-out offensiveness and rejection to beneath-the-belt level is when they've had cause to suddenly feel (scuse pun) all COCKY and SUPERIOR to you (because you're blissfully ignorant)...and therefore, as one who can soon be safely Discarded - but not before being hugely De-valued, you baaad Slave you, trying to make your owner and superior do some overdue HOUSEWORK!, who do you think you ARE? (etc.). It happens the minute the malig. narc. gets a massive ego-boost (think Inflateable air-pumps: theirs are way more powerful than ours, despite the hole in their fabric means said air just keeps leaking out again all too soon, sending them in search of the NEXT boost (google Narcissistic Supply)), this case, from suddenly believing they've found themselves a promising, better lilypad to leap to - 'better' meaning, better slave... someone who lets them behave as they like, when the like, doesn't ask questions or demand these and other rights...acts like a beaten-down, subservient slave, just resigned-ly takes that (conned-into) position/role with its usual abuse and lack of compassion and empathy, without daring to healthily and rightfully complain for (non-healthily) fear of revenge/punishment (like being cheated on). Someone who's confidence is low and, unlike yours, WON'T naturally grow back (courtesy simply of the passing of time). Alternatively (the narc-sociopath), they're Devaluing you before PERMANENTLY cheating on you - with your "consent". Starting a Harem (I am NOT joking, this is how cuckoo thus how anti-relationship and anti-society's rules Sociopath-level malignant Narcs (or Malig Narc-level Sociopaths) are (albeit, kept tightly under wraps from you while they still care about you not seeing it)! So it tends to be a common sudden (unprovoked) development with cheaters ("not all cheaters are Narcs but all malig. Narcs, given the first available opportunity, will cheat)" - a sign to look out for. It's known as Demonizing The Innocent, Cheated-On Spouse. They rev themselves up with self-delusion that goes as far as their re-writing history, before cold-heartedly abandoning you for The Other, in order to prevent/avoid any (few atoms of) guilt and culpability. This they do by justifying to themselves, in their minds (and hopefully your mutual circle's...anyone who'd object), as ENTITLED to cheat on you - having HAD to cheat on you to stay sane or alive (insert melodramatic cheap soap muzak) due to having been a victim of you, "Atilla The Hun" (- by the time they've finished!) (google Stealing The Victim Cloak) ...as if somehow that (were it even 1% true) gave them the right to commit Adultery (as I say, be it to pad-leap or "just" casually and ongoingly behind your back for decades)....Whereas, ANY fool can (once they've calmed back down) work out that IF they, the true victim, in a parallel universe, WERE as incredibly intolerable or even nightmareish to be with (pff!) then why not just simply (drum-roll...)..... ....ASK FOR COUNSELLING OR A DIVORCE, LIKE NORMAL, HEALTHY-MINDED, ROMANTIC PARTNERS WHO HAVE FALLEN OUT-OF-LOVE WITH YOU - OR, given that they can BRING themselves to cheat on you, knowing it'll probably devastate you, CLEARLY DON'T EVEN *LIKE* YOU? "Gotcha!" Loadabollocks. AS usual. Like someone trying to claim she JUST HAD to burn down the office where she worked because the boss wouldn't give her (yet another) pay-rise (for nothing - except, they're greedy and over-entitled), when all sane, reasonable people just (drum-roll) hand in their Notice (duuh). Loadabollocks. The true answer is: in whatever ways, you're still TOO USEFUL....too cushy...to convenient.... AND, they reckon, still too enamoured with them no matter HOW badly they keep treating you, to, if you ever found out, ever leave them and destroy their cushy-ness...you're too "weak!" (in-love as means permanently vulnerable, in the real world, a strength). So that means, they can have their cake (maybe multiple cakes all at one time!) and eat it (/them). They each have for too long, liked to "prove" to themselves, that they're so incredibly superior to you and most other mere mortals that they don't need to follow the rules of the Hoi Polloi, they can do as they please (and their illness makes it "pleasing" to cheat or have a whole, gun-to-their-head-complicit Harem...cuckoo). This is ollocks too. It's just a better image than HELP MEEEE, I'M MENTALLY DEFOOORMED!, which position of vulnerability and "non-superiority" their nemesis - their own ridiculously out-of-order but iconstantly-n-control ego - would NEVER, EVER allow! They would rather lose anything and anyone, than suffer any ego-deflation (because it's such "hard work" to find human air to steal, with which to pump it back up and KEEP it pumped..."Supply"). They'd rather poo their pants than dig a (scuse pun) wee hole. They are "cut off your nose to spite your face" personified. (It won't devastate you, though (if this is indeed what's What)...because you're getting the horrid data in manageable little brain bites, not one overload that's too much in one go for any human mind as virtually shuts your system down, and you (secretly) have a spare PC (brain) to network with (mine), making you more powerful than if you were a stand-alone PC. Plus, unbeknownst to her (or any narc) (because actually they're ludicrously thick), she's been making you bit-by-bit go off her, due to the fact you do NOT love her Unconditionally No Matter What - for the simple reason she's NOT your actual child (duuh).) If she's NOT a (er) woman trying to cheat, she's certainly doing a bloody good and convincing impression of one! Only other potential answers are: - she wants you to think she is (to get you back under her covert control, including using the tool called Her Dad plus insulting you to your core to shock you back into your past daze) - and/or wants you to be the one who ended it (if/when you make it come to that) so that she can claim Victim status. (Fake Victim Status is a form of Insurance, GREAT for getting future favours, special dispensations, positive attitudes and desperate-to-help hands only (e.g. the benefit of the doubt again and again) from "fans" and "prospective victims", all without having to lift a single finger. Because, of course, Victims tend to automatically get branded Not A Perpetrator, Couldn't Ever Harm Another, Especially After What Was Done To Them, don't they. ...along with the fake ones (*sigh*). But, really, the idiots and unhealthies who can relate to HER (e.g. as secretly morally corrupt as her) or think they're due later pay-out if they feign unstintingly loyalty, will choose to believe her. She'll end up with the chaff (which is fair enough since that's what SHE is - proven by going as shockingly low as attacking your tackle). You'll have less mutual friends but that will cancel out for the fact that yours are *Quality*. - she's testing you out: "And doo yoou still love meeeee if I dooooooo...THIS! (*stab out-of-the-Blue*)". How pointless, considering such testing-out, itself, always proves a giant dealbreaker....(told you they're thick). ********** 3. "She was taking a nap and then playing on her phone, while I was napping." There we go. And obviously that means she didn't even take the trouble to PRETEND to have been sleeping alongside you that whole time. 4. "Honestly, I'm starting to think that she just wasn't thrilled with the way the weekend was going (hotel wasn't as nice as we expected, neither was the pool) and shut down." Aw, boo-hoo. And that's never happened to ANY of us! It's called, at least we have the novelty of getting to be together alone with no Dad (and no having to cook or clean, and the change of scenery, and-and-and)...let's make the best of it...FOR THE SAKE OF (ummm.....wait....ummm...) - oh yeah - OUR MARRIAGE!!! (good grief). Don't allow your mind to keep sliding back to where you make excuses for her that don't even halfway justify how she was that weekend. If the hotel and pool weren't that nice, that just lends MORE weight to wanting to go out somewhere else, not less. It also increases your value to one another (toys are shite, let's play together). Also - to "shut down" would prove an incredibly, childishly self-centred, selfish attitude because (refrain of all victims - ) "WHAT ABOUT YOU?" So that's still not good. Nah. What made you say that, anyway? Has she (sensed what you're thinking/feeling and) suddenly been making an effort? (Have you HAD a good surf about this stuff yet?) Wasn't too "shut down" to 'play' for hours on her phone, having first persuaded you to leave her bored and lonely by falling asleep, eh. Come on now. Her behaviour does not fit innocence. Ditto this: 5. "She has said before that she is "not good with words, in the moment"." Highly characteristic and symptomaticm malignant narcissist phrase, noted. (So-reeeeee!) Shouldn't grumble, though. The other half claim amnesia. Or depression. Or burst-into-tears-itis. Or whatever else will let them automatically off the hook with you (usually a horrid position you yourself have sampled - because then you wouldn't DARE be such a "selfish, unfeeling, hard-hearted hypocrite" as to argue with them over it. That's sacriligous (to you...not to them). It's one of their (they think) Ace cards to shut you up and block your lines of enquiry. "And I have to say that it makes sense. She seldom says the right thing when we are having discussions," ....Still a classic hallmark of a fakery... HOW DOES SHE RUN A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS, THEN? WHAT - THE CLIENTS TALK FOR HER, LIKE SHE'S A TODDLER AND THEY'RE HER MUMMY OR DADDY? Come off it - do the maths. "and quite often has to take time to figure out what she wants to say." No. To PLAN what will work to say! ....Still a classic hallmark of a fakery...particularl when up against someone with your skills and experience (clever interrogator, crime solver, and judge). They all claim this. " Of course, it is also possible that she is just a bad liar in the moment and needs time to fabricate what she thinks I want to hear, and she is not in fact just scatter-brained." THERE WE GO - OH, PHEW, DA OFFICER IS BACK IN DA ROOM - HURRAH! Try not to fall asleep on me again, will you. I repeat, you and I are networked, you don't have to avoid that rush of data for fear of crashing. I gotcha (and not in that bad way up there, either, lol). Even just writing out it here is you creating an electronic memory bank. You put your data here and it leaves your brain cylinders freer (for important workings-out)...cleverer....sharper....wool-proof eyes. Not to worry if you do, though. I'll give you another rapid pat on the face or shove of coffee under your nose.

You having slid back over into Not Guilty! territory could possibly be a symptom of mental overload during emotional flooding, however (oil and water, those two). Just tell me if and when you could do with a break. Go very easy on yourself, be kind to yourself with a Capital K - to compensate for the fact you're missing the portion that should be coming from her. Spoil yourself rotten combined with being your own health farm sergeant major, i.e. be your own excellent parent, sup-ing a well shaken and stirred cocktail of all the elements: Indulge/spoil yourself Bribe yourself beforehand Reward yourself after Set yourself a deterrent - and a consequence, but a useful one that still counts as some ace self-parenting and -comforting act (e.g. If I give into temptation and X/Y/Z, I'll have to eat 5 sprouts, ugh!) Set yourself little challenges and praise yourself proudly each time (this isn't for you-you, it's for your inner child, the one who's undestandably scared and having this huge, excuses-making influence on your thinking) Fail to engage when provoked ("yeah, whatever, not interested, actually") (drives 'em crazy - that they can no longer drive YOU crazy (or get ANY reaction) and makes them come right out of their hidey-hole, now wholly visible, frothing at the mouths)...and we're back to indulge/reward yourself afterwards. Long, comfily-hot bubblebaths with candle lighting (Red/Pink/Purple votives prerably) and your fave bevvy and TALK-radio station (to keep you logical rather than emotional (and sad)), at low volume, are fantastic. They replicate the safest place you ever knew: the womb: frothy amniotic fluid, red spectrum light coming through mum's blood-rich tummy flesh, the water gently rocking with every move like mum's just got up and walked across the room, the quiet voices coming at ya like they do when travelling through mum's tum....you get the picture. But you have to stay in the bath for long enough, keep topping up the water. You'll know it's worked. Suddenly you exhale, which will make you realise you hadn't been breathing properly all day. Try it, see if it works on you (should do). Naughty food mixed with uber-healthy food (e.g. steamed, buttered brocolli followed by a bar of chocolate). Or things you can forage from the fridge as a quick nibble and/or nutritous drinks if you can't eat. Fresh air and exercise (hoovering is exercise lol, and then go stand in the garden for 30 mins deep breathing if that's all that's open to you sometimes). Start preening, like using male face moisturiser, getting a great haircut. (She might think you're cheating but tough titty, this is about you saving you now - own oxygen mask first. She can open her mouth and ASK...once she's spent a week thinking up how to put it without giving anything away, of course (*raspberry*)). ************* Have you got a best bud?

Next post: "I don't like her, I don't like her dad. Do you? Actually - really? I get along with them both, most of the time. I have figured out a large part of their behavioral patterns, to know what to expect." Narcissistic Victim Syndrom Parte Un: "Walking on Eggshells with a narc" or "managing the narc". Go goggle on google. "For a long time, I was ok with just side-tracking their poor behavioral patterns. But have now realized that I can no longer tolerate those behaviors, and must forcibly stop these bad habits for the good of all of us." Yup! But...Do you remember the petty street crims you used to arrest....went to prison for a few years but then were back on the street, doing the same ol' same ol' petty criminality all over again as if nothing had happened? The ones that were relentless and incorrigible and just kept making what was actually needless, perfectly avoidable/preventable HASSLE for you and your colleagues? Did you know these were 99% malignant narcissists? I really don't think anything you do will make a blind bit of difference, not now that I know she went to the bottom of the decency barrel with that offensive attack in the hotel room. Someone who can be THAT disgusting - in the context of, you, the person she alleged to LOVE! (which auto-means, and wants to protect) - unprovoked (in fact, quite the distinc bloody opposite!) - is not someone who is mentally equipped to want to change their ways/habits for the sake of the "immaterial feelings" of any other human being (just themselves), let alone their own husband, let alone to save their (hah) "marriage", let alone to preserve themselves and their safe position and future, let alone to be remembered as an upstanding individual (that takes actual effort, innit, whereas they can just manipulate and coerce what they want out of you/anyone by flapping their lips around or by repeatedly FAILING to do what they say they'll do, including taking the initiative...any initiative). What's SHE doing to try to improve/save her marriage? Anything? One single thing to benefit the marriage, rather than just herself, disguised as cooperation? "It is a sad realization that I have to lead them out of this, and be forceful in doing so. But I am willing to be the "rock" through this transition." Yes it is. All of it is. You might not even get the chance, though, mate. Understand: your (er) wife has begun the Narcissistic end act, known as Devalue. It's all their mal-programmed or mal re-programmed brain can DO with a close intimate relationship...the normal-healthy menu of tasks and Go To commands no longer work or even exist. Devalue comes, for whatever length of time, before Discard - or Mere Threat Of, disguised as Discard followed by the famous Hoover (to, once they've come back and "forgiven you" (puke), make you too damned insecure and angsted to ever say that or that or expect this or this, ever again, Amen...in case "it makes her" cheat on you all over again or, this time, ACTUALLY abandon lilypad. Precisely how long you get subjected to Devaluation, has too many variables to predict...unless and until they deliver a Whopper Insult...like the one at the hotel. (Her etack didn't work. You failed to behave to-script (gold star!). At some point, possibly, be prepared for another, worse one.) You were meant to "start" an argument, you see (point to the elephants in the room and simply ask what on earth was up and why) so she could "justifyably" storm off (to meet her date...the one who had a spare mo at that point in time...because, as proven, he wasn't that interested in her so wasn't going to PLAN AHEAD. It's another classic. ...Storm off, either for just enough time to go meet him and come back a couple of hours later with "all forgiven, let's just forget it" to preserve you as her demoted, now just back-up lilypad. OR... maybe even for you to say, "That's it, I've had enough of you treating me like this, and now you've gone too far - I want a divorce!, or I'm moving out!", thereby cutting the weekend short and giving her a far greater window of time (which might still have got reversed by her mwa-mwa-kissy-kissy-didn't-mean-it-let's-just-forget-it act, just later that night or the next day, who knows...). But the tactic borne from A Certain Agenda is a classic. Well, to those who've hbeen put through it before and/or studied up on that (ew) topic. Cheaters (who know which buttons of yours to press) frequently do something to piss the innocent victim off in order to manufacture an "argument" so that they can go meet their mistress/er...male mistress (about time we beans came up with a male equivalent label, eh) (for now, we'll call him Mastress). (Sorry) ************ "It was a person with severe mental health issues, that had a blade. I think it just so happened that I came across him on a bad day. After I left law enforcement, I also was involved in a shooting. Luckily, my arrival was enough to send the bad guy running and I didn't need to actually shoot. I am a protector at heart," (Patently!) "so I tend to run towards the danger" Like (I've newly established) you're doing right now with/at wifey as well as with/at FIL & Wifey Inc. "to help folks rather than run away." Yup. Fighter, not Flighter or Freezer (lol) or the latter's cousin, Fawner. Yup, I know that. Also, I could tell from how you blitzed the clutter. How IS the clutter situation at this further point, by the way? "I must point out here, with the shooting event. My wife actually grabbed a gun and followed me to help, if it was needed." She wtf?????????? OMG, you thought she was one of you. And yet, unlike you, she's devoid of genuine empathy (save for the mere act/mimickry that can be turned on and off when suits...and left on Off) and as spiteful and nasty and manipulative as uck (hotel room) (AND "suggesting" to her dad to follow you out and confront you - because "I'm sure he just said we're both stupid, dad!" (that's what I suspect, anyway). Yep. Spath. Sorry. Definitely Spath. One who thinks she deserves a public Hero as her (however-long) mate. Their egos are the biggest of all the malignant Narcs and Cluster Bs generally. Oh, great. Not verbatim - a Narcissistic Spath: - Takes huge risks - Believes themselves above the Law (whereby they can - ...how does the She's Sweet But A Psycho song go again?..."grab-a-cop's-gun kind of crazy (she's poisoned the Daisies)", etc. What a coinkydinky that that is exactly what your missus did! The average man or woman on the street couldn't do that. Not without being told/instructed by you. And evidence shows she is NOT a Pro-Social type of psycho but a low-functioning, man-made psycho but with the massive ego dysfunction of a Narc, called Sociopath (with a capital S). - Believes themselves above the SOCIAL laws too Tick-tick-tickety-tick, huh... She's certainly poisoned YOUR daisies (and tried to psychologically castrate you, actually) - and she was actually crazy enough to grab a cop's gun. Jesus H... And bloody hell. This is going to be the closest to an actual, real-life Superman versus The Joker stand-off I've ever seen. But using Grey Matter weaponry instead. (Ya couldn't bloody make it up, could ya!) (bet anyone largely ignorant of this stuff is reading this and thinking I'm high as a kite or something!) (no, just describing a malicious form of insanity yet to be faced and dealt with by any govt and medical profession.) - Massively opportunistic (grab the gun to impress you - and it's fun and exciting too (dopamine-dopamine!!!)) (but note she followed behind you like the coward, actually, her type pathologically is. Taking advantage of an opportunity for thrill-seeking (due to not having the brains to appreciate the seriousness of a situaton - it's all a game to them, LIFE is a game) - is not the same as bravery. - Has little or no regard for the safety of themselves or others - Does as little work to earn a living as possible (lazy, can just wait to be served/receive) - Nothing is sacred (they're morally corrupt) You are the type wouldn't even ever DREAM of rubbishing your wife's private parts! That's because you are SO not like her as to be the exact opposite. Oh BOY she mirrored you well, didn't she. Little Miss Natural-Born Law-upholder, Little Miss Energetic and Proactive... Clearly just a typical, narc-manufactured illusion. A mirage. Hence why - you've just dared run into her and she responded by turning into dust. What else did she mirror? Clearly, if she ever even thought she loved you, it wasn't healthy, legitimate, ACTUAL love, or else, never could she have aimed to long-term maim you (your confidence) in that hotel room. No way. Love In-Memoriam, the feeling of appreciation, gratitude and regard that remains, despite you split, would have prevented her. You noticed yourself it was strangely missing when you failed to get any SHOW of empathy, recently, just the script. Plus, even then - this time said robotically thus unconvincingly. Crumbs. You got crumbs. Yeah, well...as queen of the self-deluders, she's underestimated you and overestimated herself (which they do). She's no match for you (they never are). They're fantasists, but who mimick the 'sentimental' words and phrases your normals come out with, so well, that they come over as refreshingly normal-healthy to the highest degree (or "with the potential to be"). "She has certainly caused some drama and heartache in our marriage," Oh, I've taken that as read! "but at one time her loyalty and love was shown in a big way. I can't forget that." That's what they do (broken programme makes them do). The big way is actually Love-Bombing. (Please - find time to go oogle your google?) I know, though. It's really difficult to believe, let alone "get over". But it comes. Just takes longer than any normal forensic deconstruction because our brains by virtue of being wired healthily, do not have a "language"-translation programme for dealing with a sick and twisted programme 'coming at us'. It wants to shut it out and skidaddle, quick, because it can sense their thoughts (sent into our processor via words and acts) are toxic and infectious - a threat to our own programme. (Indeed. This is Covid the mental version.) Believing it exists and is and always has been allowed to move around and live among us normal, decent, tax-paying citizens, and ruin everything for us, is infuriating to me, always has been. All it would take is psychometric testing combined with genetic testing - for a couple to qualify as fit to produce a new version of themselves - and then decently raise - a (fit) kid into adult, or - "sorry, you're a carrier on the genetic side and an emotional idiot on the parenting skills side...computer says No". All it would take is to skip ONE SINGLE GENERATION in any line, and Bob's yer father's brother (or would have been if he'd been born! But it takes something no-one with the power and authority possesses. Balls. I don't see why not...they screen for Downs and other genetic mutations that could make an eventual kid's life miserable, don't they? What's the differencio? Until recently, you needed a license to own and rear a puppy! What are they waiting for - a volunteer? I'll do it?! So I still can't get my head round this warped way of being, in any lasting way, and I've been dealing with this whole damned topic for decades and decades! Trying to make even a storage drawer (the "fluent and instantly-accessible understanding" of it) for it in my bonce is like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling! USING the twisted data requires downright mental gymnastics (including well-practised Lateral Thinking so that you cannot fail to take into account the emotional as well as the logical, which is what makes the data/evidence by which to call it, 100% present, objective but realistic, thereby legitimate. Anything less is not.). Between you and me (haha): if they're malignant, their presence in-person makes me feel nauseous. Kid you not. If benign - just constantly irked and irritated and wanting to get away before the inevitable headache sets in. I'm super-sensitive to the uckers (yeah, great). Anyhoo, I'm getting myself "started" as usual so...back to biz: Throwing off those hooks and chains is NOT for the weak or feint-hearted (hence, once you've fully woken up and realised your 'situation', you have to get out while you can still muster enough energy) (you're different - you're natural-born and trained). But the blinkers she put on you when you were drunk will fall off again - very soon, in fact. Your state of awakeness hasn't just returned, it's come back bigger - I can hear it (- that's' excellent!). Would you (at some point) like to see your agenda-specific, counter-manipulations weapons menu, Sir? Would you like to make HER, not just willing buut GAGGING to be the one to leave that house (with obviously her dad following closely behind like the ever, over-close behind that he is)? All with minimal effort (that can be a hoot to-boot)? But, meanwhile... And there was you, all these years, thinking you have to wear a uniform to be a social order-keeper/restorer. You iz da overground patrol, buoah! Types like moi are da underground ("overground Wom-bl-ing free..the Wom...bles of Wim---bledon Common-are we") (only amusing if you're British, soz...this happens when I've been too serious (left-brained) for too long and it hands over to my very silly, very comedy-sluttish right...my sign to wrap this up). But here are the principle and methodology: If you get unexpectedly caught in barbed wife in your favourite woolly jumper (the one that says, "I shoot to thrill" gnarf-gnarf), and want to extricate yourself without any injury or holes in said jumper ("pullovurrrrre" in American), you have to slowly, to point of imperceptibly, reverse out the EXACT same way you went in....all parts of you. And then as soon as you're out and over it, you have to note where it was and how you ended up charging into it (because you didn't see it until it was too late) so as to never end up in that position again. Simples! The beauty is, if there's someone there to direct your every move-reversal, you can do it surprisingly quickly. Houdini was not a genius, he just knew the techniques. The hard part is waiting for your (stupid-stupid) feelings to catch up with the reality programme (yawn) so that they wear-off faster and you can function normally again. And they can be effing painful. Not being a normal relationship as we know it, the detaching (Breaking-Up) process from a Trauma Bond, etc., atop a normal-healthy bond (yours only), is a double whammy, which can be brutal if you don't know how to get control over and disempower it enough. It's grieving AND going Cold Turkey at the same time. But I do so no worries. :-) Once you've taken on a "king narc", played them at their own game and, not just won but put them howeverlong out of action to give others a chance to keep away - which, maddeningly, is so easy you wouldn't believe! - you can then take on A...NY....ONE. Probably even Putin. And, trust me, you're going to really need that skill once you become a disturbingly highly vulnerable old man (you already know how Narcs exploit, con, basically intimidate and threaten the aged, right. It's your BRAIN muscles that count in this world). No gain, No pain, is the saying as is proven true for millions, daily (think childbirth - out pops the prize the pain earned you). Big Pain equals Big Gain, is therefore it's logical counterpart. This is a rite of passage for you, one that's long overdue (through no fault of your own, just your having become desensitised to bad behaviour from ones family/intimates). This is you re-enacting, I think. Well, half of you. The other half of you wanted proof that what you were put through, growing up, was zero to do with you or any reflection on how loveable you are (to normal-healthies). Unfortunately, these days our bent towards increased speed of operating, via increased mental efficiency, makes us combine things that should never be mixed or tainted (or - KER-BOOM!). So re-enactment wins that tug-of-war. Because re-enactment is about survival, which takes precedence over shagging and adding to the production of the next generation of citizens. Having a kiddie is what you do when things are GOOD and your path ahead devoid of tripping hazards (like useless tree roots). And now I'm talking like Confucius so (focus, focus!)... "She has said that she would be willing to have a baby now....but she's 39 years old. Certainly past her prime for child bearing. And I don't think I have it in me, to raise a child that could come with developmental problems from such a pregnancy." What - using YOUR repulsive member (all of an opposite sudden)? Ollocks. Can't happen, can it, as you rightly point out. Oh, well, then. I've decided, tomorrow I'm going to swim to the moon and back! Are you impressed? (Sorry, but this woman is ridiculous. You really WERE kept drunk all these years, eh!) Tell her she can knit one if she's that keen. And then shove it up her ASK NO QUESTIONS, TELL NO LIES, I SAW AN ELEPHANT DOING UP HIS FLIES ARE A NUISANCE, Narcs are worse...and that is the end of my silly little verse. ************** Finally... "I don't think she has the time honestly." Nobody in the history of mankind has ever "had the time". We have to MAKE the time. Which we do if we have the drive or incentive. Trust me, cheaters - or even those just tactically pretending to be cheating by going through the textie-textie motions - MAKE time. So you're quite correct. She doesn't have the time honestly. She makes the time (dishonestly). "Between working at home," Hide in a cupboard and watch her "work" even nearly as hard as you all day, go on. She has complete freedom (means, motive, opportunity...no-one with any tendency to tell on her, assuming Dear Papa would even know..."just popping out to see a client, dad!"). "spending time with family," Meaning what? Does that entire tree look "holy" to you so far? Holey, maybe! Families of spaths are usually either completely fooled (or blinkered) or complicit (Flying Monkey)! It's probably a bloody friend of her sister or BIL for all we know! Or they're simply all for her replacing you behind your back. Or getting you back under her thumb where you're less irritatingly impressive compared to them (how verray dare you). ( ight - Homework for this weekend: surf the web for first-hand spath-victim accounts and "see your wife - even with a beard, called Tony or Trevor - described in an ordinary day-to-day behaviour way" - and join the newbie victim-surfer brigade's (mistaken but logical) chorus of: "Hey, you there on this forum/comments section: WERE YOU AND I MARRIED TO THE SAME PERSON AT THE SAME TIME COS YOUR EX-HUSBAND SOUNDS UNCANNILY LIKE MY EX-WIFE!" (Haha, but actually not so far from the truth.) "and visiting me at work," They call it visiting but in fact it's checking up on you...ensuring no other narc could possibly steal their golden goose/job. "I just don't think she has the time for dates. And it would definitely show up as odd behavior." What - odder than we've already seen, you mean? Also bear in mind: you equally didn't ever think she'd go so far as to verbally attack your danglies, did you. What else didn't you think? That your future father-in-law would posturally challenge - or risk making out he was challenging you to a fist fight? That she'd appreciate and make the best of that not inexpensive weekend hotel break? That she had gone long enough in proving she was just like you - a Doer-Shaker-Mover-Tackler-Fixer rather than a lazy-minded-...just plain lazy, actually, illogical, self-sabotaging, self-destructive, disloyal, chamelon-like, covert, "vulnerable", victim-bully, Mean Girl type bitch from hell, via passive and passive-aggressive behaviours? Except at the hotel. That was right in your face, wasn't it. Sudden and monumental change of behavioural M.O. in response to zero provocation (quite the opposite - wooing...doing something lovely) equals change of agenda thus either complete removal or swapover of masks. A "punch" out-of-the-blue of that sudden magnitude signals that the Devalue into (Real or Faked) Discard programme has become activated. PS: to drive home what I said up there: I still can't believe she actually, actually SAID THAT to you - and right to your face like that! Although I can. But - can't. It just doesn't lose its shock value. what about you? You still struggling with the mind-uckery of it? I mean - how are you feeling? Are you really upset - or surprising yourself with how calm and/or numb you feel?

Oh, and, get some B-Complex vitamins. The jury's now out - they work well for lifting your spirits and giving you back your former higher levels of energy! Houston, we have another Piece to add to our cache.

PS: Not tired yet (busy day, brain still buzzing). So I'll do a reappraisal of certain items on the evidence table under our new light (not necessarily in the one post). To recap, we know she's Guilty - that has been well established by now. What we want to know now is - of what, precisely. And how. Respond to this one at your leisure. ************ "3. Excuse sarcasm, but...Was this the first time, ever, that your wife realised the house she lived in couldn't accommodate that many people all at once? I mean - why would she do that? Surely that was just a very round-the-houses way of ensuring that you guys would have to go to her sister's?....despite you had huge party prep to be getting on with? Does she manage to turn arrangements stressy and chaotic a lot? Because you sound like an organised type." Question: who else was at her sister's house. Any other guests? How many? Had you met any of them before? Where - only there? Question: do you see a running theme, here? Illogical, seemingly NON-self-serving choices and behaviour regarding the logistics of her self-created (or contrived) double-booking. (Desperate to go to sister's no matter what, clearly.) Illogical, seemingly NON-self-serving choices and behaviour regarding what to do (answer: what everyone does) to get around the disappointing fact of a misrepresented standard of this hotel "with facilities"*. (Desperate to STAY in the sweaty, slightly shoddy hotel room, with now't to entertain but her mobile, clearly. Or certainly at THAT precise point (texts about to come in...."time to go back to sleep, husband".)). (Fits!) Question: is it just me or am I really good at sarcasm? LOL (Fits of canned laughter) (just trying to bring you up a bit, ready for...) Now a dead-straight, serious question: how it it, do you suppose, that you managed to keep falling asleep and STAYING asleep so incredibly much that weekend? Is that 'normal' for you? Was it just the heat? Have you experienced daytime heat like that before yet NOT slept away the whole day(s), as well as, presumably, the nights? ************** "1. Did your wife get the wrong items because she didn't put any effort in or because the item wasn't available and she didn't want to come back empty-handed? And if that's it, then, why didn't she simply ring you to let you know and check what substitution you wanted?" We now know the answer: she just didn't care (as per)...more so than usual because she had her mind on other, "more important" things...possibly day-dreaming about someone (some web prospect back then) rather than concentrating on the supermarket shelf contents and labels. Maybe not just daydreaming, maybe texting him the entire shopping trip? (Could Fit!) Question: Was she gone for a strangely long time, considering the length of your shopping list? Had she bought any of the items - at that particular store - before? ************** ""1. My wife gets to be very disorganized and hectic when she is doing things. She seldom takes a step back to think, and is instead run by chaos."" She's got her nose too continually stuck in her phone to give anything "unimportant" any attention and consideration, that's why everything ends up done/planned badly and stupidly - yet never used to, used to do it the functional adult way, "just like you". Jesus... Is this newly revealing to us, just how long she's been cheating on you or trying to? ...with this switching to close-up-overtly contemptuous behaviour, simply a sign of her no longer caring about carefully keeping her truer nature hidden from you, i.e. is letting you see flashes here, there and everywhere (for pleasing, petty "revenge"-based, torture purposes)? (-it's what Spaths do...petty sadists...if you had an Overt, you'd see a rage so disturbing you'd for the first time in your life leg-it!...before returning, with a plan of counter-attack, obvs - but you get my point.) **************** "4. " Plus her kids (oldest is 11) were in a mood and pretty well ruined the 90 minutes we were there"" Not just one, not just two, but ALL SIX KIDS behaving badly in company they should have been taught to have respect for and put on best behaviour for! With pretend reprimand in the form of HOT AIR. Thus in reality - neither parent bothering to correct it...because it doesn't bother THEM, they're entirely used to it. (Who cares if guests don't like it...fck'em.) Chavs. (Usually just Spaths by another name.) Chavs have no idea how to make guests feel valued and welcomed because they've never been shown that they should give a shit. Quite the opposite. Ipm not saying nieces and nephews shouldn't hang loose and act naturally around you. But this isn't about hanging loose, being themselves. Or rather - IT IS. (...Chavs) For normals, it's about giving people a great time, making them feel valued and special, so that they can't wait to come to your next bash, and the next, and the next....whereby bonding naturally occurs and then deepens. Only those who couldn't cast the first stone and/or likewise saw nothing wrong with it would time and time again put up with THAT stressy, nerve-grating nonsense. And six - SIX - PIGGING SIX! - kids. What century are they from? (note) Or - arr dey Oirish potato farmers, dough? (...Chavs.) YOU MARRIED TOO FAR BENEATH YOURSELF, DIDN'T YOU, AND ARE ONLY JUST STARTING TO TRULY REALISE IT. Yup, you're busy getting out of your chair - and at quite a rate. They can't. (Now't in-common here, folks.) So now I know what her game could be: to break your legs so you get back in it and never-ever leave her, no matter how disgusting (and now sadistically bitchy) a wife she is towards you. Because, far be it for superior-her to ask and thereby reveal she wants you, her mere possession, to stay. She doesn't (her sadistic stab in the heart/member says so). She wants what you SUPPLY, to stay. Until SHE says she's done (slaves don't get to dismiss masters/mistresses). She plans to achieve it by smashing your legs (psychological ones) with a (psychological) sledgehammer - which in reality will be, you walking in to find her cheating or, worse, in-bed with another man (purely a machination - the poor sap will have been conned into there with her, bet your bottom). What's your (er) wife's name - Annie Wilkes?! May as well be if that's her game (which it very well could be). Yep.. YEP...ping-ping-ping, ker-ching. In fact, she'd cheat anyway, but here we're talking about using self-exposure of the fact as her coercive tool/weapon to put you back in your chairbound place like before, how she "likes" you. She doesn't like you functonal because you "make her get off her arse and do things, not of her spoiled-baby choosing". You're assertive and a bit intimidating for a weasley coward like her to take on, mano a mano. She prefers to smash your leg bones from under the table when you're not expecting it and no-one else can see it. But the hotel attempt didn't do the trick. Yup. BRACE - BRACE - BRACE FOR THE RE-SERVE! Sorry. I know you're probably a bit knackered and dizzy already but - needs must...an ambush is about to happen. Meh. She can't possibly lose cushy you. For starters, she gets to cheat/flirt (same thing) if/whenever she wants to! But she has to duff you up to put you back in your past daze via said attempt to injure. But anyway... know I feel I have the Real McCoy "why" - on we go to the "Who": QUESTION: Was wifeypoopoos helping with these kids while at sisters? Or only back at yours? If the latter - what was she doing during the whole 90 minutes at sister's? PS: RIDICULOUS visit to bust a gut and risk the success of your own function over...90 piddly minutes - what was the point? OR WHO? Back to - who was there or supposed to be there for that supposedly virtually futile 90 minutes? **************** "2. This is a fairly consistent issue with her. If I am not there to slow her down, she often does things poorly because she is easily overwhelmed." TO SLOW HER DOWN. She rushes. It's her default speed. That's how she "has time", AKA - that's how. (Fits!) But - still, with whom? **************** ""1&2. Examples of her being easily overwhelmed are common, but oddly I can't pick a specific time as it is a regular occurrence." Right. She plays dumb and helpless and stressed-out/overwhelmed because she's learnt that (as per) you'll come and take over, .....leaving her with freed-up time. (That's how she "makes time", too, look....these minutes all add up, you know.) Ooooohh, what a master anipulator she is! She uses noise and dirt and dust to keep you looking Up instead of Down. (Typical Spath M.O., again.) She pretends to be thick and clueless. Yup. (Ugh.) She is. But not in terms of knowing where all the human-empath buttons lay and in what sequence to push them (and how to get at them). That is her one, specialist subject - probably ALL she studied at school! Ugh. You married someone else's school's once-School Bully (on the girls' side). Ugh. Don't fancy yours much. There again, to be fair - my first time, neither did I fancy mine much, once I came round and got back my 20-20 vision and realised what (not who) was beside me in my bed, lol. Basically an animal...type, Predator (wild dog, wolf, hunts alone or in packs (but then runs away with the kill)...hunting is more than just hunting for survial purposes, it's entertainment, pack bonding or heirarchy-stealing (ref running off with the kill)). "Might is Right" rules. But predators, even the dreaded Wolves and Hyenas, don't all make a posturing, pack racket...they can be stealthy...silent...creep up on you out of nowhere, too. Even after years of believing you'd tamed them, and only just last night having merrily stroked their coat as usual. One "wrong move" and WHOMPH, they have your hand off. It's not loyalty with wild or tamed dogs. It's Cupboard Love. (You want true love: CAT. They don't have to stay with you, they can still hunt, regardless that you spend decades putting food down daily for them... they CHOOSE you. Cats that wuv you are not in the slightest bit aloof with you, they follow you around and are really affectionate towards you. Get aloofness and it just says you're treating them incorrectly (duuh) or someone else in their past did too, and now it's too late). But I digress (probably not, actually...I'm processing out-loud now.) Indeed. What she said/did to you that weekend is something only someone closer to animal than human would say to their (er) "No. 1 loved-one in the whole world" (or ex-No. 1, even). Fits...but I'm not coming across any evidence that suggests WHO yet... ******************* You might like to know that this - their being closer to animal than sentient, soft-hearted human - has just become accepted as a scientific fact ("Wolf shags Man - read all about it!"). Wow, you really were beaten-up and dazed to uck at the time, weren't you. Woah. ******************* "but she is a very slow person to make changes in her behaviors/actions" Maligs and Sociopaths (and corrupted, low-functioning psychos) don't have the pathways for changing (or for wanting to). Spaths, especially, are incapable of learning lessons experientially. (TICK!) hence consequences mean nothing to them, hence they TAKE the huge risks (dealbreaker of an over-personal insult, deliberately as a response to loving behaviour (the greater the height you fall from, the more painful and potentially lethal the fall), ringing any bells? Bloody Tick. ****************** Let's also add in what could quite possibly have been this: in truth, as opposed to the strong impression she would have hard-imprinted into you during the first however many months/yars (that will no doubt be difficult to shake off and re-profile), she's too uncultured and unsophisticated to know which type of what is best to substitute for what you asked for, recipe wise. Here's an idea: what if that isn't her business but simply a dummy version, as their money-laundering outfit? THEN she'd have lots and lots of time to cheat, eh. (?) I only ask because it belongs with the emerging profile of that type of family pack of spaths - your versatile street crims - goods that fall off the back of a lorry one day, petty (usually opportunistic) burglary the next, selling a few drugs the next, etc.) and how they behave in myraid situations. ******************* Let's add in the fact their mental disturbance shows in their Hoarding behaviour. And the fact they're giant, work-avoiding (the after dinner clear-up that never happened) slobs. Clearly your FIL is used to rummaging through bins and dumpsters, big fat Eh. Right. Because I did wonder why I suddenly wanted to sing the Wombles song, actually. Clearly I was processing and profiling ahead without realising. And the fact that she is disinterested in staying in hotels and is a fish out of water in that sort of environment. Plus isn't behaviourally affected by one (on your best behaviour, including due to the natural, positive amount of alienation that occurs when the two of you are plonked in a new and unfamiliar place and haven't really been alone just the two of you for too long, as makes you unusually more polite towards one another or possibly even a bit shy.) ****************** "Even in my paranoid schemes, I can't come up with a reason. Unless maybe they witnessed some behavior from my household/sis in laws household (they live a block away and visit frequently) that they didn't like and were avoiding me out of an awkward feeling." Ping! Common "old chestnut": her family don't like you, either. You're above them and it pisses them off (pathological envy and jealousy). Plus you're a decent citizen and ex copper (which if I'm right about their true 'calibre', they despise). They're in on it. Are helping her with insurance in the form of prematurely slandering you (describing you to your once-neighbour as if YOU are the problematic element in her marriage - "getting in there" first in case (come the inevitable split) you were to think of going around TELLING people - people she knows or might need to know - what you've discovered she is REALLY like (a secret scum--bum), thus how all of a sudden said once-pally neighbours are suddenly and oddly giving you a wide berth, seemingly inexplicably ...until now.) Oh, yeah, baby - ALL the hallmark Spath tactics and behaviours are going on here. These boys and girls, FYI, are the (worst) slanderers and dogged stalkers-intimidators in the world. Save for your Pro-Social Hero/Rescuer type of healthy (and intelligent thus SELF-rearing) high-energy, gung-ho type of individual with lots of useful psychopathic traits AND bags of compassion and empathy - all at just the right measures - as produce someone who'd run into a burning building to save the life of someone(s) they don't even know, let alone share genes with as would normally allow a person to do such a terrifying and risky thing (yay - that's you!) (oh, she's in big trouble alright and doesn't even know it). It's happening. She's preparing and Devaluing, both in case of a Discard or if you should do the dumping (or accept what was a fake discard (curses, foiled)).. Try to accept toute-suite that the "love she showed you" was all a however-much faked act called Love-Bombing when (sole benefit of the doubt) she was still under the effects of Dopamine and .all excited about what goodies were to come, courtesy of what you would put on the table... Yet another form of telling/showing you what she could sense/tell you wanted and needed to hear/see. Ohh, all Narcs "are" the round peg that fits your round hole PERFECTLY, every last one of them. Until the day they reveal or you cotton-on to the fact, they are SO NOT. And PS - this fits with her wanting her (in on it) sister round while you were out for the count upstairs and unable to overhear anything. (Fits!) Her sister is on it, that's for pretty certain. *************** Question: have you married a pack of predator-parasites who only SEEM to have some respectability but, under the table/behind closed doors, take their sweet time in ingratiating and inveigling themselves into your lives (whereby you've not just married your wife her entire family) so as to slowly but surely start appropriating (for free, no work involved) YOUR status and reputability by-association, then YOUR time, then YOUR money, then YOUR house? - by which I mean, not just 50-50 upon a divorce but your share of it as well as hers? How handy would such a secretly low-down mob with their six (let's name the puppy) BRATS (too young to know to don a mask, still) find it to have a blue-blooded Copper in the family when the last type of person you'd expect or believe him to have chosen to wed and wed INTO would be a ...basically thieving/scamming, gypsy type from a gypsy type of family behind that there window dressing? Collects vehicles. To do up. But never does. No. Because they're a secret signpost type display, like your swingers have their Pampas Grass in their front garden. "INNIT". The signs says: "Stolen motors mate...We're a little bit WEEEEEEAH...a little WHUUUUUUUH!"... Like a silent mating call to OTHER petty crims in the neighbourhood. (Lots and lots of DVDs and other crap in bulk, you say?) See for yourself what I mean: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Akox4EwwCKE I know that parody is funny but the reality actually is not...not remotely. Is that an extrapolation too far? Because, me, I find it fits perfetly with her newly revealed, once unthinkable from her, STREET-SCUM-STYLE, POTTY MOUTH words and behaviour, and she suddenly fits perfectly with IT. So does a Father-in-Law who, like some once-rufty-tufty school delinquent now more your Jerry Springer guest type of baddie-come-loser towards his (respectable and unused to it) son-in-law. So does their kids not getting taught socially-acceptable, instead (passively!) just ANTI-SOCIAL conduct instead (and screw anyone who doesn't like it). Now let's add the scrapyard exterior "landscape design scheme". Now let's add in, your wife being devoid of a maternal instinct (typical female spath). Now the well-practised manipulation tactics going on on all levels. Now the pre-Slander campaign as insurance AND to tie your hands legally... Because - how better a way to leave you keeping SCHTUM if/when/after they've had you vacating your own house...and NOT reporting them! It would feel too humiliating to you, as a copper, to have got "conned into getting taken possession of and then fleeced" by a family of petty neighbourhood-style crims, now, wouldn't it. (Or so they hope.) Now add in how Mr Man is the only one getting a good deal, financially, plus any benefit from his being in your house (he contributes eff-all since that deliberate piecemeal impression of a cash sum injection...which mortgage he hopes will become his/theirs anyway so is going to get it all back again). Christ, AKA, I'm starting to think - what on earth did you marry and wtf scummy hole of origin did she crawl out of. Are you? Yep. Subtle. (Well-practised.) Rough and over-busy above the table ("watch the ball, watch the ball"), meanwhile smooth as silk underneath it like your master pickpocket who is distracting your attention...with the ruddy ball. They tell you to do something with such confidence that you find yourself somehow doing it. Confidence.....Trick. (Experts say, incidental-accidental Hypnosis.) Start looking closely under that damned table. Start collecting what later can be submitted as Hildebrand Evidence. If I'm wrong, it can't hurt. If I'm right it could be what safeguards your future old-age comfort, quality of life, and security. **************************************************************************************************************************** QUESTION: do you delete your history - does she know about this site? Any keyboard tracker or suchlike? Please do that sweep. DO NOT MOVE OUT, DO NOT MOVE OUT - WHATEVER ELSE YOU DO, DO NOT! Send THEM to a flat if or when it comes to that. Otherwise, she could claim "abandonment of the former marital home" by you, to get to be the one who gets to live in it until the mortgage is paid off - or get more than half its equity since by then you're happily ensconsed in your owb flat...whereupon she'll have in the nick of time, magically ceased making enough money at her job or (whoops-a-daisy) made herself bankrupt, hence you, as the only earner, will be court-ordered to financially support her on top, via monthly spousal maintenance (fair enough for an actual spouse but not this long-conning, mis-appropriating scumbag wife-pretender). She might even "suddenly" be pregnant with your (not) baby (which is what female spaths do to get or keep their hooks into you; the babies are just commodities and bargaining chips to them). And that tallies with her latest sudden INCREDIBLE offer and COMPLETE 180-DEGREE TURN-AROUND, to grow a maternal instinct. Yep. In fact, she plans to give you a baby to keep your hands and mind too busy as well to make herself indispensible and divorce-proof (not). DO NOT HAVE SEX WITH HER, DO NOT, DO NOT! Not till we know it's safe to - because if she deliberately gets pregnant by you right before she discards you and raises a divorce petition (but painting YOU as the abuser-abandoner), you'll really be stuffed (as then you're talking spousal PLUS kiddie support payments plus no sympathy from the court unless they see through her (highly likely actually, but, still...better safe than sorry). And so will the kid be stuffed. Baaaaah. A bad barbeque day has slowly started to reveal itself as a hive of Jerry Springer 'guest' types. They'd probably both move into sister's house while cashing in by renting out the whole of yours (on the sly of course). Did you never do a background or criminal record check when first you met her? Where and how DID you meet her, by the way? No holding back, now - now that there clearly is more to this than meets the eye - tell me everything. No need to start worrying though because - not on my watch, they won't. Or yours for that matter (now you're waking up more and more and no longer looking through the Rose-tinted glasses). Start snooping, background checking, sweeping, all the stuff you can investigate at your end, and come back to me with your findings. I would say you've got 24 hours ha-ha but suddenly I've lost my sense of humour (I wonder why). I'll have to finish if I've missed anything, tomorrow. (Conning, including domestic-level Romantic fraud, has gone up more than 400% since the start of Covid, FYI. It's when the going gets tough like it 'lately is - out from the woodwork in their true colours they come.) Sorry for that incredibly long rush of dot-joining - it just came at me all at once. I can be here tomorrow. I'll check in. If it's too much in one go, just post a smiley so I know you're okay.