What is love

Once again I am at a crossroad, decades ago when I was dating I have met those one in a million who are able to take my hart and make it feel, but in chasing that love I have tumbled and fell. Got back up and did it all again. Yes, I take time to heal. I have done this a million times. I met someone who is amazing, for the last decade she has taken care of me like the lost puppy I am, cos that is who she is , very loving and caring. And as the good dog I have been a loyal, supportive and done the best I could for her. We have built a supportive positive and loving home from where we started off. But in all the love a support we share, she has never made my heart skip a beat. I feel like I'm living a lie, I feel like my heart will never beat again, I feel like I am going to die this way. Can someone slap me in the head and tell me to use my brain and grow up and realize all the things we built together. And all the things I'm throwing away. I feel like I need to find my heart but if I leave on this adventure I am just chasing an illusion. What should I do? Does anybody know what true love is, is it the one where I should sit like the good dog and let my heart die or leave and run to find something that doesn't exist. And end up waiting till I die for it to return.

Hello Notdog: "she has never made my heart skip a beat... I feel like my heart will never beat again, I feel like I am going to die this way"- reads to me that the fear of death is speaking here: you want to FEEL ALIVE because you are afraid of dying, afraid of being dead already...? Wanting to FEEL ALIVE because you FEEL DEAD. Am I anywhere close to what is true to you? Amie

Hi Notdog (- haha, good alias!), You have to DO NOTHING right now. You will NEVER make a good decision while in an emotionally over-aroused state. See it like your mind is two halves, connected by a cable at the bottom (like two PCs networked-up). Because this IS how it works. One side is called Captain Kirk, the other Mr Spock. Kirk is mostly emotional, Spock is mostly logical. Only once they listen to each other, consider each other's point of view, and take each other's ideas/needs into account, does the perfect solution that addresses both the practical AND emotional, present itself. But they can't do that if and while there's chaos is going on (like aliens chasing them). So take this very slowly... Because it's all too obvious you and Spock are torn...not united....not working together....both in opposite corners of a boxing-ring. And that's why basically you're saying "I love her, she's my best friend with bells on, and dearly want to stay with her/I don't - not enough - I've got Fear Of Missing Out Syndrome!". (You can tell who's who, there, I presume?) Otherwise, you're going to get over-simplistic answers, like, 'Oh, well, if you're even ASKING whether you should end it then you probably should because people truly in-love - that question never enters their mind, they couldn't IMAGINE not having that person in their life'. Particularly as we're going to need an awful lot MORE data than you've provided. For example: What are you calling a Lost Puppy? Why and in what way were you, and what led to it? How old are you both? Also, you say, heart will never beat *again*, having mentioned you'd experienced "butterflies" with prior beaus... Question: and how did having that sensation ultimately work out for ya? Are you still with them, happily ever after? Or are they the ones that ended badly? Tell us about those. A lot more data, please. :)

...And I too would like you know if you have a fear of death. Or is it just, fear of dying without ever having experienced love like you see in the media and films? There's a lot of bloody brainwashing out there, and no matter HOW pragmatic you are - it still gets in, still raises your expectations and dents your sense of realism... ?

Amie: Im not saying your wrong because i do not enjoy and do fear death, more recently I have read up on Thantophobia and realise that I also have the associated fear of loosing loved ones. But I have always faced and accepted these feelings as to where I will face this sadness and in that event i am able to reflect how much they have cared for me and me for them, which in the end allows me to feel my apprication for them. This leads to an event where i am still saddened by the potential loss but happy that we were able to share so much, and that its not too late that we still can. Resulting in what i can only explain as a bitter sweet sadness and joy. So maybe there is somthing true there in your first statement, but i dont think so, your second is more accurate but it does not describe things accurately. As I will be putting emphasis on the real issue so that we can relate better to my issue at hand. Alright, so i am very slow at getting things on "paper" it took 2 days to write that before I realised that this analasys is drifting off topic, I was going to delete it and get more to the point but since you have both requested i am going to re-paste it. Soulmate, you scare me , because you are the topic at hand, do you exist and who/what are you. just your very name has me on the edge of my chair, and lookk at you, you just come wondering in , soo smooth, takling about computers and startrek, which is the core of my being and is not much of a coincidence now adays, but i was a trekkie way before it was cool, and when i was verry young I would sit in the sink and stick my finger in the electrical socket several times a day so when i say one of my passions has been the electron thats maybe where it started, and over the years I have gotten to know and respect the electron very well, and as i get to know it better I LOVE it even more, even though i have never seen it, it has given me truth and enlightenment about the world, it has always remained consistant even in its ever changing ways and has shown me things deeper than even the atomic level, and past the subatomic and all the way to the big bang. Problem is that it says the ilusion is real BUT then if I were to make that choice in reality would be insane. and what I will call here as option 2. The craziest thing about you is that i could hear alot of your words that you have posted inside my head before even reading them. So to respond to some your inqueries: Age is irrelivent , I feel this is for anyone at any age. Butterflies are only one part of the feeling, but only a piece of what it is that truely captivates me. its way bigger and deeper, you're going to get over-simplistic answers,---- I am aware of this , so although this is a deep topic for me, what happens here I may only take it as a grain of salt. You have to DO NOTHING right now.-- do not worry i know, this is a struggle for me as long as i can remember. And in general I am all in all a well balanced individual. In reality if option 2 is the answer, that would mean strapping on my squirrel suit, running to the edge of the cliff, jumping over the side and falling in to the foggy unknown. But it will literally take 2 years to get to the cliff, i will fall for another 2, then after landing another 2 to see the results, and really I cannot see what is at the bottom. So do not worry, I am in no haste for this decision. But if i am making the wrong one, then another day goes by where I have not made the right one. If this were a simple issue of someone else in my life i would just take the stick with your wife pill, but its more than that, it has nothing to do with anyone else and only me. When we started things we took a settlement(she aknowldges this too), and built things from nothing on a solid foundation, and a cool safe environment that we both settled on, and could take the time to heal from our past traumas, yes there is attraction and intimantcy and alot of great things, but not that feeling, she cant influence my heart, or pull its strings, if she decided to leave or cheated it would have an impact on me but not as much as some losses I have had, and i feel it will never be there no matter what we work on. But there was nothing at the core, never ever any butterflies, never a time where my heart skipped a beat, maybe if we go on our seperate ways and try again we will be able to build again with the warp core. pragmatic, hmm yes i am, but i can only answer like this for now: hollywood>>I am tuned out completely, yes there are tales of princesses in castles and prince charming and happily ever after, but upon reflection, these actually reflect the opposite, and an insult the feeling to which I describe, all i hear is sit in your tower and the first person to come along that is brave enough to face the dragon is the one to settle with. and you should be happy that you found anything at all. This fits the stick with your wife paradigm. Music>> My hearts resonates with the music that reflects this feeling and one of the ways i am able to feel and express it, it does not influence me to believe one thing or the next, but allows me to feel others expressions and myown, aswell as all the gray in the middle. I am also intrigued and influenced by phillosophy, religions, astrology, mythology, magic, miracles, evolution, common sense, experence and other things i cant think of right now, but i have studdied alot. I have "LOVED" and been "LOVED" so missing out really isnt the issue. And what complicates things is that there are so many mixtures of what it is, I would like to reiterate that this topic is requesting a definition of this exact thing, and I would request that we leave that word out of the thread, unless necessary. Question: and how did having that sensation ultimately work out for ya? Are you still with them, happily ever after? Or are they the ones that ended badly? -- I dont like this question, i think without saying we all know the answer, however, this is not an analasys of how dumb and immature i am, after all, this current relationship will be another statistic similar to the rest if i walk away from it. It also changes my opinion of you as a soulmate and shows me that you have also taken the shrink perspective of reality, which is counter intuitive to your name. It will be interesting to see how you are able to justify both ends of the spectrum. (sorry for the shrink slur , i really do appricate your perspective and help). But lets face it, this relationship could just be the one where i learned to grow up and be mature, and make better decisions, it may not be the final one. In addition, this is not really a question about me, it is about life, the universe and everything. there for my existance nor all my mistakes will not change what the answer to a question that is bigger than me is. So now that we have sniffed each others tails a bit, lets get back to the point. Please feel free to correct my behavior or any misconceptions i may have. and if you do need to hear some nitty gritty feel free to ask and i will try to elaborate but i hesitate to get in to symantics, just as i will be expecting it from you as we go throught this process of analasys and reflection. I like the startrek perspective so lets go with that. I am going to pick a color, i choose white so i can go first, I am also going to play devils advocate and say that kirk needs to steer the ship. This also means that the electron feeling is real, that infinty is real and that i should jump and find it. It advocates that I should be somewhere that makes my heart beat , and that i need to jump. And im going to give you black, it is the realistic point of view and says the feeling is illusion, and infinity does not exist. Right now spock is in control and has been for a long time, he says that i should appricate what i have, that its more than most people have, that it should be good enough, and that there is nothing else out there waiting for me. Sooooo.... I am lucky to have found a one in a million, but it's a one in a million on the other side of the coin too. is it greedy that i want that one in a billion and that i want my cake and to eat it too?

Amie: Im not saying your wrong because i do not enjoy and do fear death, more recently I have read up on Thantophobia and realise that I also have the associated fear of loosing loved ones. But I have always faced and accepted these feelings as to where I will face this sadness and in that event i am able to reflect how much they have cared for me and me for them, which in the end allows me to feel my apprication for them. This leads to an event where i am still saddened by the potential loss but happy that we were able to share so much, and that its not too late that we still can. Resulting in what i can only explain as a bitter sweet sadness and joy. So maybe there is somthing true there in your first statement, but i dont think so, your second is more accurate but it does not describe things accurately. As I will be putting emphasis on the real issue so that we can relate better to my issue at hand. Alright, so i am very slow at getting things on "paper" it took 2 days to write that before I realised that this analasys is drifting off topic, I was going to delete it and get more to the point but since you have both requested i am going to re-paste it. Soulmate, you scare me , because you are the topic at hand, do you exist and who/what are you. just your very name has me on the edge of my chair, and lookk at you, you just come wondering in , soo smooth, takling about computers and startrek, which is the core of my being and is not much of a coincidence now adays, but i was a trekkie way before it was cool, and when i was verry young I would sit in the sink and stick my finger in the electrical socket several times a day so when i say one of my passions has been the electron thats maybe where it started, and over the years I have gotten to know and respect the electron very well, and as i get to know it better I LOVE it even more, even though i have never seen it, it has given me truth and enlightenment about the world, it has always remained consistant even in its ever changing ways and has shown me things deeper than even the atomic level, and past the subatomic and all the way to the big bang. Problem is that it says the ilusion is real BUT then if I were to make that choice in reality would be insane. and what I will call here as option 2. The craziest thing about you is that i could hear alot of your words that you have posted inside my head before even reading them. So to respond to some your inqueries: Age is irrelivent , I feel this is for anyone at any age. Butterflies are only one part of the feeling, but only a piece of what it is that truely captivates me. its way bigger and deeper, you're going to get over-simplistic answers,---- I am aware of this , so although this is a deep topic for me, what happens here I may only take it as a grain of salt. You have to DO NOTHING right now.-- do not worry i know, this is a struggle for me as long as i can remember. And in general I am all in all a well balanced individual. In reality if option 2 is the answer, that would mean strapping on my squirrel suit, running to the edge of the cliff, jumping over the side and falling in to the foggy unknown. But it will literally take 2 years to get to the cliff, i will fall for another 2, then after landing another 2 to see the results, and really I cannot see what is at the bottom. So do not worry, I am in no haste for this decision. But if i am making the wrong one, then another day goes by where I have not made the right one. If this were a simple issue of someone else in my life i would just take the stick with your wife pill, but its more than that, it has nothing to do with anyone else and only me. When we started things we took a settlement(she aknowldges this too), and built things from nothing on a solid foundation, and a cool safe environment that we both settled on, and could take the time to heal from our past traumas, yes there is attraction and intimantcy and alot of great things, but not that feeling, she cant influence my heart, or pull its strings, if she decided to leave or cheated it would have an impact on me but not as much as some losses I have had, and i feel it will never be there no matter what we work on. But there was nothing at the core, never ever any butterflies, never a time where my heart skipped a beat, maybe if we go on our seperate ways and try again we will be able to build again with the warp core. pragmatic, hmm yes i am, but i can only answer like this for now: hollywood>>I am tuned out completely, yes there are tales of princesses in castles and prince charming and happily ever after, but upon reflection, these actually reflect the opposite, and an insult the feeling to which I describe, all i hear is sit in your tower and the first person to come along that is brave enough to face the dragon is the one to settle with. and you should be happy that you found anything at all. This fits the stick with your wife paradigm. Music>> My hearts resonates with the music that reflects this feeling and one of the ways i am able to feel and express it, it does not influence me to believe one thing or the next, but allows me to feel others expressions and myown, aswell as all the gray in the middle. I am also intrigued and influenced by phillosophy, religions, astrology, mythology, magic, miracles, evolution, common sense, experence and other things i cant think of right now, but i have studdied alot. I have "LOVED" and been "LOVED" so missing out really isnt the issue. And what complicates things is that there are so many mixtures of what it is, I would like to reiterate that this topic is requesting a definition of this exact thing, and I would request that we leave that word out of the thread, unless necessary. Question: and how did having that sensation ultimately work out for ya? Are you still with them, happily ever after? Or are they the ones that ended badly? -- I dont like this question, i think without saying we all know the answer, however, this is not an analasys of how dumb and immature i am, after all, this current relationship will be another statistic similar to the rest if i walk away from it. It also changes my opinion of you as a soulmate and shows me that you have also taken the shrink perspective of reality, which is counter intuitive to your name. It will be interesting to see how you are able to justify both ends of the spectrum. (sorry for the shrink slur , i really do appricate your perspective and help). But lets face it, this relationship could just be the one where i learned to grow up and be mature, and make better decisions, it may not be the final one. In addition, this is not really a question about me, it is about life, the universe and everything. there for my existance nor all my mistakes will not change what the answer to a question that is bigger than me is. So now that we have sniffed each others tails a bit, lets get back to the point. Please feel free to correct my behavior or any misconceptions i may have. and if you do need to hear some nitty gritty feel free to ask and i will try to elaborate but i hesitate to get in to symantics, just as i will be expecting it from you as we go throught this process of analasys and reflection. I like the startrek perspective so lets go with that. I am going to pick a color, i choose white so i can go first, I am also going to play devils advocate and say that kirk needs to steer the ship. This also means that the electron feeling is real, that infinty is real and that i should jump and find it. It advocates that I should be somewhere that makes my heart beat , and that i need to jump. And im going to give you black, it is the realistic point of view and says the feeling is illusion, and infinity does not exist. Right now spock is in control and has been for a long time, he says that i should appricate what i have, that its more than most people have, that it should be good enough, and that there is nothing else out there waiting for me. Sooooo.... I am lucky to have found a one in a million, but it's a one in a million on the other side of the coin too. is it greedy that i want that one in a billion and that i want my cake and to eat it too?

Apologies for the delay, Notdog - I'll be able to make time to reply tomorrow. And yes, there is a very simple solution to all this.

(I know - I'm 'spooky' like that sometimes - haha, sorry! - but it's not actually rocket science.) (I had no idea I was smooth, though? In-ter-westing...) I've not seen any of the Star Trek films, but I watched a handful of Telly episodes, whilst the rest of the time, catching bits and pieces here and there, when my parents watched it so I know enough. I did write a poem about Virtual Particles and the meaning of life, however, after nosying around Quantum and String theory - and no, you can't, lol. But you CAN have your cake and eat it - and whereby so does your partner. That's the decent and clever way of keeping her and replacing her, both (and same for her). Two winners. First you have to understand what a relationship is. Fact: every morning, unbeknownst to ourselves, we make a subconscious decision to remain another day in our relationship. And a relationship is, the quality of bond and interaction, amassed. Same reason as why wise husbands know full well, that Foreplay at night with your wife begins, not that evening, but the minute you both open your eyes in the morning. What you're uncomfortable with, is your relationship dynamic. This is common stuff when two injured soldiers grow a relationship foundation together from their emotional hospital-beds, rather than waiting until they get discharged and sent home (100% recovery). So end it. End IT, not your coupledom. How you do that: (a) A sit-down discussion followed by a period of Separation (no dating others). Six weeks minimum as a first sample could be enough, but the precise duration should be by mutual consent (it won't work if one of you is resentful). You can play its duration by ear, setting a minimum and a maximum. BUT YOU MUST AGREE A REUNION DATE/PLACE/TIME so that you're both perfectly relaxed during the break. And it should be a ROMANTIC DATE (e.g. candlelit restaurant). (b) Ditto, but no-one goes anywhere. No sex, no kissing, no being in the same room at the same time, even. Again, for whatever agreed period you can each bear the thought of. And the reunion/date night is conducted at home, too (decent takeaway, candles, wine, music). If this fails (because you both give into temptation and break the rules) - switch to (a). The object is to cease interacting as a couple. To kill the previous relationship set-up and operability. The relational, behavioural habits will atrophy then die. You'll feel like first-daters again...alienated...suddenly shy, like strangers...being very polite, and asking lots of interested questions (because you've got news you've been unable to swap)....first date! This is how you start again, and this time more carefully and diligently, no longer as victims in NEED but recovereds in want. Same partner - new relationship. It works. Although, it works better if you can go 6 months...only most people are misguidedly terrified of Separation, hence you should start small and increase it if the 'new' behaviour should start featuring the old habits of relating. *************** Regarding your self-analysis explorations - I'm afraid I had to slam on the brakes when I got to this: "Age is irrelivent , I feel this is for anyone at any age." Incorrect. Couldn't BE more incorrect. I need that data please. As I say, an age bracket will do (e.g. early 30s - late 30s). Without it, the whole ship is gonna crash! ;)

Its not the point that we have that in common, its that you were able to connect with me so quickly and easially and with such a familiar topic, and to understand my delima so fast compared to others (even if we are not on the point yet), in all your other posts, have you ever mentioned startrek? so y me? is this just conicidence, of course it is. So ya, verrry smooth one there! I'm not saying this is a sign that you are the one or anything, I dont even know what sex you are(and dont tell), if anything, more of a ShrinkMate really, but it is another reflection and a glimpse of what is waiting for me out there, elsewhere. So what does this mean? It is true that this conversation started here and it will never go beyond here and it will end here, and this is OUR(you and me) relationship. But I wonder about Newtons Law that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, so as you connect with me here and are impacting my life with your advise, I will have a equally and oppisite impact on yours, not sure how, even if its just a moment you spent trying to help me, and i will never see results because its only for you but it will be interesting if/how it does or if you are able to let me know im wrong about this in the not so distant future. and ya i know i cant read minds but just crazy the way it played out. and thats really my point is that its crazy, Kirk is insane!. I have been watching alot of youtube lately, espically from the Phsych2go channel. And I would like to specifically highlight this one in particular: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qadSvKa2eHY At time index 6:15 there is a pretty little triangle, please note that when the piece of the traingle is removed it falls over, this is my delima, but its not like this piece fadded, it was just never there. Also i see and understand the value in taking a break to rediscover our selves and each other, rekindle and stengthen the apprication we have for each other, but it is impossible, as we are in a position where I would not have anywhere to go if i left and could not afford another place, and our home is so small that if we were to still live together the only way we could avoid each other would be if I moved outside in to the doghouse, literally, its a "cozy" home. Another problem is that my strenghts are needed there right now and leaving could be detrimental for others too(i may start another thread on this, cos i may need help on it too, but for now lets set it aside) sufficient to say for now that it is a part of the reason it will take a while to get to that cliff. And yes a seperation would be good for so many reasons, and yes it would play out that not if but when we made it through we would have a greater stronger relationship, but that third piece of the triangle would still be missing as its non existant in every sense of the meaning(that i understand it). Its not there, it never was, this excersise will not spark it. and at the end of the test when i decide that i want us to stay together, it will re iterate the same mistake im making every day with this decision that i make every morning when i wake. Yes i will miss her and her affections when we are apart and yes it would strenghten my independance and apprication. but sparks, no. I'm afraid I had to slam on the brakes when I got to this:.... was it just that part about age or everything after that too? Age is deceptive for me, in some ways i am old and in others i am young, and to put a number on it would be decptive for you. I realise there is a huge differnce between 20 and 90, and that difference subsides as they get closer to each other. If you could elaborate on each dynamic and how it impacts things in the different stages I may be able to elaborate more, but as i mentioned, this is a problem since i was young and it will continue till im old. So again for me this is more about me than us, and is that triangle theory correct? And what is passion, maybe we should look in to that more, it is a better word than butterflies , but still may not describe it fully. Maybe wife and I should have only been just friends this whole time? Which is really my concern. (btw we are not married, we dont have kids) not too sure what you mean by Foreplay there. Fact: -- i make mistakes every day. First you have to understand what a relationship is.... I think this one is more to the point , maybe we should focus on this.

okay, you are right, I think I am going to take that seperation time that we have suggested, I will break the news this weekend, but im still not sure how I am going to handle the evenings and weekends, since again, I dont think leaving home is an option right now. Although I am quite experienced and adapted to events and gatherings, it does not relfect my true introverted nature, I am most comfortable sitting at home with a movie, video or board game, or just conversation. Taking this step will be hard for me, I dont know where to go to get away, I have searched for options but all the suggested gatherings and events to get out of the house have no appeal to me what so ever, the only thing i can think of is to hide in the garage and work on small projects, this also has litte appeal cos thats 1/3 of my day and too long to be out there espically after a hard day at work, and these are family projects that we have been working on together, but since we are so busy it has been a sunday only thing in the recent past. Again, more youtube vids now, so i mostly get what I need to do during a seperation but since this situation is unique a few pointers couldn't hurt. Thanks! Also as we go through this, I would still like to take the time to discuss that third part of the triangle, cos again, that is MY delima.

Also, sorry, but part of my pragmatisim is that I always question and challenge things as part of my learning curve, this may appear as beligerant and snarkey, so if I have reflected that in any of my above comments then i would like to apologise and let you know that I am truly listening.

Not ignoring you - over-busy week - bear with me.

that is quite ok, i appricate any help, and this gives me time to realise aliens are still attacking.

Sorry, keep bearing with me. I will get to you but I'm very short of time just lately, only getting brief windows here and there, whereas I can see there's a lot of yours to respond to!

I think love is the most incredible emotion there is. Love is considered to be one of life's greatest blessingse is considered to be one of life's greatest blessings. The bond between all living things is love. Love is the answer to everything that ails us. To love means to feel overwhelming passion for another person or thing. It's a feeling shared by humans everywhere, and it can be felt toward anything. It's the feeling of deep attachment and love for another person.Feelings of affection can be directed toward anyone or anything, not just a romantic partner. It can be shown through words of encouragement, physical displays of affection, selfless deeds, and the investment of precious time together. What's more, love doesn't condition itself on any return from the loved one.

Thats great Wes, I can tell by alot of your words you are a Kirk advocate, but the second half of your paragraph describes the spock side of love. Its way cooler, more loveing and calm and not hot like the overwhelming passion mentioned. and thats my point, who steers the ship. going back to me personally just an update, i have decided not to seperate yet, it would be detrimental for us to do so now, plus we have an amazing relationship where we can communicate work things out and build alot stronger of a relationship without using the extremes to rekindle what we never had. we do have: words of encouragement, physical displays of affection, selfless deeds, and the investment of precious time together. But back to the core, what we dont have is overwhelming passion or the answer to everything that ails us. Kirk: the answer is 42, and out of the 8 billion people here there is only 1 and I still may not be ready to handle that boiling pot. It sets me on fire , makes my blood flow and makes me feel alive. Even though i have never actually expirenced the real mccoy, even a small scent of it drives me wild. Or again, maybe its just illusion, a temptation in disguise, and doesnt really exist. Spock: we have built everything ourselves, its great how far we came, but if it falls its something we can rebuild with anyone else(who is mature and ready and compatable and all that jazz). Because love is giving , and nothing/little to do with what I feel deep down. More of a mother thresa sort of thing. Also I just watched a movie called "Hancock" last night. Analyze that one please, where does the girl belong? Did I just get lost in Hollywood?

Also , again, i get side tracked by specification and elaboration to myself. Lets take the focus off me a bit, and move it toward a more general perspective. In fact lets say I dont have a wife at all if it helps. And i dont have an age, this is a life long question for anyone in any situation. I dont need help with my situation. I just need/want the answer to this question, and everything else will pan through this. I also ask of the black team that you leave behind all your degrees and what you have been taught by the system about relationship building, to take a more personal perspective and focus more internally & spiritually on this one. Now that is not to say that you can cite reference to them, or use it if you need to rationalise or ground yourselves. I realise that the summary of the point of having both is that any 2 people can build anything together if they want/desire to, but can they feel anything they want? isnt self-lying/changing your feeling fall under the catagory of manipulation or settlement? Are you suggesting that with hard work and practise I can build any relationship to feel overwhelming passion? Also I'ma take Wes on my team, but feel free to flip back and fourth as you like.

AND! again, feel free to take any time needed to generate reply, as i want us all to choose our moves carefully, and prove that we are grounded when we make said moves, As i mention, this is a timeless question, so i expect this thread to be timeless and will most likely go on for a year(s). Also there is no urgency here, and others need more help than i do, I would feel bad if we were neglecting people who have real problems for this trivial philosophical debate.

Hi again Notdog, Reading all of that - somehow, your question about your relationship ambivalence (or not) has morphed into an invitatio for a long, philosophical, existential discussion/debate (now with mention of some new, third, mysterious element), but, unfortunately, I'm too short of time so we'll have to stick to the original topic. Also if this third element plays a part or affects your relationship in any way, you should please include it here. "Also i see and understand the value in taking a break to rediscover our selves and each other, rekindle and stengthen the apprication we have for each other, but it is impossible, as we are in a position where I would not have anywhere to go if i left and could not afford another place, and our home is so small that if we were to still live together the only way we could avoid each other would be if I moved outside in to the doghouse, literally, its a "cozy" home. Another problem is that my strenghts are needed there right now and leaving could be detrimental for others too(i may start another thread on this, cos i may need help on it too, but for now lets set it aside) sufficient to say for now that it is a part of the reason it will take a while to get to that cliff." I still need to know the following because your ages/stages and the state you were in when you entered the relationship, and what caused it, have everything to do with it and I can't come up with any workable solutions without them: (Please keep to the numbering) 1. What are you calling a Lost Puppy? 2- Why and in what way were you, and what led to it? 3. How old are you both? Thanks for the data re no kids And I now have new questions: 4. I now also need to know what this problem is that requires you to stay at home? 5. When was the last time you and she had fun together? How many times per monh do you go out as a couple? And do you socialise with other couples? And how is the physical side of your relationship? Alternatively, I highly recommend you read this (taking 'married' to include 'partnered-up and cohabiting'): "His Needs, Her Needs" by Willard F Harley, Jr. It's been the best-seller for decades. I remember checking it out in about 2005/2006 and recall I liked how the author kept it simple and based around the Human Givens: https://www.amazon.com/His-Needs-Her-Building-Marriage/dp/0800737717 "Time after time, His Needs, Her Needs has topped the charts as the bestselling marriage book available. In this classic book, Dr. Willard F. Harley, Jr., identifies the 10 most vital needs of men and women and shows husbands and wives how to make their marriage sizzle by satisfying those needs in their spouses. He provides guidance for becoming irresistible to your spouse and for loving more creatively and sensitively, thereby eliminating the problems that often lead to conflict and even extramarital affairs."

I'm sorry my online communication is bad and I have difficulty putting things in to english, even though its my first lang. So im sorry if i made you feel like I needed THAT kind of relationship advise. But the ORIGIONAL TOPIC is and still is -- WHAT IS LOVE? even if we skewed it in our minds. I dont need workable solutions. or to elaborate on my situation. I just need one word.... one word to tell me im dreaming and that i have my head in the clouds and to wake tf up. That Is What I Need. Wes was so elegantly able to define it way better than i had words for. AND his is the same view I have/had of it. Kirk: I think love is the most incredible emotion there is. Love is considered to be one of life's greatest blessingse is considered to be one of life's greatest blessings. The bond between all living things is love. Love is the answer to everything that ails us. To love means to feel overwhelming passion for another person or thing. It's a feeling shared by humans everywhere, and it can be felt toward anything. It's the feeling of deep attachment and love for another person. Spock: Feelings of affection can be directed toward anyone or anything, not just a romantic partner. It can be shown through words of encouragement, physical displays of affection, selfless deeds, and the investment of precious time together. What's more, love doesn't condition itself on any return from the loved one. I can play this in any scenario, should i get married to, be married to, stay married to someone without Kirk involved? Its a spock relationship, a great spock relationship with many many wonderful things, and Kirk can stay tied up in the corner for the rest of my life if need be, I made a choice to keep kirk out of it deliberately, one where he has no place and will never fit. but is, was, will this be a mistake? There is just one question, and just one answer: Kirk or Spock, Kirk or Spock, Kirk or Spock? Wes clearly says Spock is not intended for romance. and that kirk shoud be in charge here. That I did/will make/made a HUGE mistake. There is just one question, and just one answer: Kirk or Spock, Kirk or Spock, Kirk or Spock? Kirk or Spock, Kirk or Spock, Kirk or Spock? Kirk or Spock, Kirk or Spock, Kirk or Spock?

"ts a spock relationship, a great spock relationship with many many wonderful things, and Kirk can stay tied up in the corner for the rest of my life if need be, I made a choice to keep kirk out of it deliberately, one where he has no place and will never fit. but is, was, will this be a mistake?" THERE IT IS! You made a consciously deliberate choice to keep Kirk/your 'emotional brain hemishere' OUT of it. What - so he couldn't/wouldn't get hurt again? PS: You can't exile Kirk or you're halving your intelligence. The goal for any human is to have balance and cooperation between the two hemispheres and become Lateral-Minded. Any thinking and deciding then becomes what it should be: an inseparable, TEAM effort - always - automatically. YOU, you're saying you're not really enjoying riding your bicycle and then admitting it's because you're keeping one limb OUT OF IT. Well - duuh? Yep - I smell fear of attaching. Understandable, but THAT is what needs fixing. And all it takes is knowing and exploring it consciously in order to gain control over it, rather than, at the moment/thus far, it controlling YOU. Careful, because that way lies addiction-growth. Kirk - or that major part of him - might actually expire. Again: Spock and Kirk never succeed at anything unless they come together. It has to be KirkSpock.

Oh, but, please note it's a myth that romantic pair-bondeds share a love that is unconditional. It's very MUCH (albeit, background-) conditional. It's called Compatible Chemistry and Lifestyle Wants plus meeting each other's human and relationship needs (seriously, DO buy that book - his measures are all piss-easy with fast results - on YOU as WELL as your partner!). Unconditional Love happens between those who share genes - first and foremost, parent to child. UNCONDITIONAL Love is called Co-Dependency. PS: You don't actually need tailored advice because this area of your life is not run by Conscious You (he just takes credit for it), but by all human-being's primitive brain-programmes and wiring. Not saying that consciously-felt fear or dread (of history repeating) can't block or suppress it, but unblocking it is NOT Rocket Science. So you may as well just be asking me to instruct you on how to touch your toes until it no longer takes any thought or effort. (Unless you have incredibly short arms and very long legs? LOL) Just is just your animal side wanting its Human Given but with Conscious You trying to keep it locked in the understairs cupboard. That's not a very nice thing to do to yourself, is it? Tell me about this horrid ex-girlfriend (or ex-Whomever).

PS: Re your request for clarification: "Same reason as why wise husbands know full well, that Foreplay at night with your wife begins, not that evening, but the minute you both open your eyes in the morning." I mean, by how decently and lovingly you treat her that day, from the minute you both wake.

ok, again, crazy, just crazy, I was not expecting to hear from you for a few days yet, but when I pulled up on my jobsite today, I got down to work and looked up to take a small break from the screen, I then noticed a street sign in front of me, it said: "join us with your solemates, walkforalzheimers.ca" , and so i pulled up the thread and to my astonishment not 1 but 3 posts!, boy do i feel special! lol, I kno I kno.... don't say it, i kno, just one of those funny little conicidences! (It still takes 2 days to write this!) Yes, i understand the balance you speek of but kirk should be steering the ship, spock is the first officer, yes there was a mutiny, yes it had to be done. Yes kirk is more mature now, but still not to be trusted. yes, Kirk is on the back burner but still there. What - so he couldn't/wouldn't get hurt again? maybe not really, maybe more from exhaustion, i'd say even more though it was an attempt at maturity, and doing the right thing, it was following the guide that love is selfless and I DELIBERATELY EXCLUDED the other elements, but isnt that a one way street and counter intuitive to co-dependance, since you cant be dependant if you are all giving. i have always heard/thought that co-dependance diminishes from independance and is not healthy for a relationship (aside from the parent-child bond). Also isnt a parent child bond more of a one way street. again wouldn't that take the prefex co out of it and leave you with dependants, which is what it says they are on my tax form? yes, Lateral-Minded, that is next step that I am aiming for, but kirk keeps saying, this is wrong, run, its a settlement, we dont belong here, its not right, I am cheating us both. Compatible Chemistry, yes that is what we have, it is so inert that there is little leeway for kirk, and perhapse aids in his supression(please note this). yes, we keep him lightly sedated, yes he will be dead soon. Will fear stop this, no, im not afraid if it is actually the right thing, but also fear its wrong. yes, i used to love biking, and the rush of free fall, I love defying gravity. I love chemistry, espically the fizzles and explosions and the sparks and the color changing. I love the warm exothermic reactions. This is one point where the structure of this relationship slows me a little, she wont/cant go past the first rung on a ladder, much less fly, and her fear is projected to me when i want to fly. But maybe its better for me, after all those activities are dangerous. "Foreplay" , yes there is foreplay, 24/7 foreplay even, but it is done from compassion and empathy, not passion and desire. Yes and regular coitus too. THIS, THIS, this is where i need to elaborate something. I love getting my belly scratched, and when its done right, my leg gets outta control and kicks all over the place, ya I'v knocked over a few lamps, but this thing, this feeling is priceless. This is my delima, she is quite receptive to my need for scratchings, and she tries hard and gives great scratches, but even with all the communication, coaching and efforts, my leg does not even twitch (not talking about the third one either). Deep down I know no matter how much we/she tries, it never will. This is my delima. Its just not there, and maybe Im focused on just a trivial issue. and maybe I should maintain that selflessness that has worked so well. That's not a very nice thing to do to yourself, is it? No its not, not fair for her either, but if i let it out it will run for the hills. If anyone, I am the horrid ex, I can cast blame only on myself. - duuh?.... i think you may be correct about smelling some things there, but I dont think it is the cause to this delima. Also it seems I have a fear of letting go too. How crazy is that!? OK,i will get the book, and give it a honest effort, but I wonder when i should stop beating a dead horse.

I am not going to read through the conversation thus far, but I'll offer my ten cents. Love is a connection between two partners at any point in time where they are affectionate to one another and make a conscious effort to want to be with one another. Love doesn't always last forever. Sometimes it lasts for a certain period of time in your life, and then either fades or changes into something else. Love also isn't restricted to one special person in your life, in fact there are many potential partners for everyone out there. I think many loves are there to accompany you through certain chapters of your life. My ex was there during a time where I needed someone, and that time reached a natural breakdown and conclusion. I don't think it necessarily goes on forever and ever, nor was it particularly as strong towards the end. Sometimes love is a chance you take that just doesn't work out. There's something more to it than simple lust, there is mutual interest and feelings. But try as you might you just can't make it work out with this person and it isn't fated to last for a length of time. Sometimes one partner will make a conscious effort to break things off because they have the forethought to know this won't be fulfilling enough. I think a lot of the time we just don't want to be alone, we want someone, and so we grab onto the best person we can find even if they aren't what we've dreamed of. Sometimes it's a good person who we want to use to feel happy for a while, consequences be damned. Every now and then this might lead to an unexpectedly great relationship, and we can be content with it. But the fact of the matter is that you won't always have those intense feelings that you had the first time around. Sometimes love isn't exciting or life-changing, but rather it's dependable or reassuring. Just having somebody to care for you and be on your side, and to look forward to seeing each week can make a world of difference.

Ya, ya, ya, exactly, exactly, god ya , ya, i wish i had a magic 8 ball or an easy button.

Sometimes love isn't exciting or life-changing, but rather it's dependable or reassuring. EZACTLY, this is the choice I just cant make for some reason.

"i wish i had a magic 8 ball or an easy button." You do. That book. IT WORKS. (PS: Edit: "UNCONDITIONAL Love between *Romantic-Sexual* partners is called Co-Dependency.")

...Plus, all your questions about what love is will be answered automatically.

I am still considering a seperation, but not sure how to go about that, we are living in a one bedroom apartment, so avoidance and giving space is almost impossible. Should I just lock myself in the bedroom till she is ready to go to bed. Sleep on the couch, then wake up 3 hours early to go back to the bedroom so she can have the livingroom? Im considering sleeping in the car for that entire time. Not that I will jump, but i like to have options.

But the fact of the matter is that you won't always have those intense feelings that you had the first time around (OR EVER IN THIS ONE). Sometimes love isn't exciting or life-changing, but rather it's dependable or reassuring. Just having somebody to care for you and be on your side, and to look forward to seeing each week can make a world of difference. -- yes, this is an important aspect of a relationship, so are we suggesting that this should be enough for me and that I am not cheating the US, that i should be happy with with I have. She gives me a cookie, and I eat it up and I am reminded that cookie was made with care for me, and for that reason only, it tastes good. So the next day I bring her a dead mouse, and she accepts it with grace and pats me on the head, and taxidermies it and hangs it on the wall, as a remider of how i care, rinse repeat ... but the REALITY is shes not a cat. KIRK: NOT A CAT, set her free for her to find her own kind where she can be truely happy, with someone she can actually connect with and not just content with a hotdog like me. Also about the book, I will in good faith give it an honest try, but I know how to touch my toes in this regard too, who knows, maybe I learn a thing or 2. BUT The problem is should I KEEP touching my toes? My instincts tells me to reach for the sky. About getting lost in hollywood, this is a taste of what it is like when i do, It was playing on the tv last night when it broke my meditation, i realise it is encrypted and might not make total sense for you all but it is enough for yall to see in to my soul, and give perspective to the feeling. It has a certain personal connection in the references, just a few key words at a few key times, that makes me feel like they may be actually talking to me, and this goes as far as to pull on my heart and makes me feel reconnected to myself, the kirk, at one with myself and at peace but more than that. https://youtu.be/tQwnc8hAGv4 Without rhyme or reason this is the call I am feeling / have always felt / suppressed, the crows are comeing and I need to leave the Beiber fan club to be ready for when the crowd pours in at the box office for those newly relased tickets. It is the same feeling when I hear the word soulmate, as whatever it is is getting closer, more things are triggering it, and its getting harder to reestablish and maintain the SpockKirk balance. I feel the pull on my heart more and more and its harder and harder to avoid doing what i need to do to prepare for it, jump, if i am to follow the book and the rules of how to be a good spouse I need to snuff this, this kirk part, this part of kirk. Thats 2 movies now: Is the phsycologist right, should i reset the compass? Does the girl in Hancock belong with her husband, faking a normal life?

Scoozie delay again. A Separation means separate aboxes so - No. What strikes me as a bit odd, however, is that you seemingly would rather play highly-inconvenient, Silly Buggers than buy a book that has long-proven to work, work quickly and work beautifully (and isn't even remotely expensive! - on Amazon UK it's going for 4.99!). Seriously??

(tsk - abodes)

book arrived yesturday.

Oh good! Huge thumbs-up! Let us all know what you think as you go? You do have to do some things by-rote at first but it's a 'fake it to make it' situation: if you keep doing something, your feelings change (on your cases) revert to-match. :) (It's all so simple and so obvious, you'll 'kick yourself'.)

BOOK 15% complete. but i need to read more to talk about it. in the mean time, I think your point about faking it to make it gets closer to my questions... are you saying i should try till i die? when do I stop beating the dead horse?

Also, side questioon, alot of these youtube coaches say , I cant control life, I can only control my reaction to it AND that any reaction given will not change things?..... does this not also suggest that expressing my discontent is whiney, lectureous and controlling, and that making an effort and trying to change things is pointless?

AND how does it work when we sit down and talk about feelings, i get a response that it is boring and uncomfortable for her. She says, "I just want to live life and have fun" .... What does this mean , how do i deal. I get not wanting to be lectured but how do we have these deeper talks if there is no expressions.

50% So another question, I have heard of women playing hot and cold, but do the rules differ when it is by the second, what i mean is we will be chilling on the couch and she will show a sign of playful affection, just something small like a playful poke with her foot or somthing like that, I will reciprocate the action with somthing equal or less, such as a light gentle poke back, but then i get a loud verboius "DONT TOUCH ME!" so i will respect and distance, but then 2 seconds later I will get another poke. and the cycle repeats. Could we please analise and assess this, what should i do in this situation to reciprocate the small bit of affection i get. I realise the "dont touch me" google says it could be because im too rough and aggressive but i am taking the care not to do that and only giving half back of what i get. SUGGEStONS? ..... btw, this was chapter 1 in the book, affection....

Sorry, be with you tomorrow!

"in the mean time, I think your point about faking it to make it gets closer to my questions... are you saying i should try till i die? when do I stop beating the dead horse?" Haha - no. Just 6 months or so - can't recall how long he says to give it. It's to see whether you've simply become out-of-touch/alienated (through no-one's fault) or whether your developmental paths have diverged to the point where you have very little in-common.. That's that the trouble with getting together too young (or even two young for you guys), before you've finished mentally developing and discovering (or having your minds changed about) which paths and destinations in life you wish to take. But as you were a lost puppy - and I'm assuming she'd been through a tough time too? - it may simply be that your basis, your relationship foundation and context, got built as a FRIENDSHIP. Let's face it, when you're battle-weary/injured, the last thing you feel is excited and romantic. Maybe you two began as co-supporters or Nursie & Patient? DID the Honeymoon Period feature any excitement and mainly romance/shagging like bunnies?

"Also, side questioon, alot of these youtube coaches say , I cant control life, I can only control my reaction to it AND that any reaction given will not change things?..... does this not also suggest that expressing my discontent is whiney, lectureous and controlling, and that making an effort and trying to change things is pointless?" Most life coaches worth their salt aren't too lazy to see their clients individually in-person (effort measures how much one cares) and, particularly if they're good and really know their onions, have far too many in-person appointments week-in-week-out to pitch and maintain their tents on YouTube. Not saying they're all under par whilst over-selling themselves, but - what I've said is pretty logical if you think about it? It's akin to Fakebookers who state, I've got SO MANY FRIENDS! - 172 in fact! (- Oh yeah? I've got too many friends as well (5) and that's precisely one of the main reasons why I DON'T HAVE TIME FOR RUDDY FACEBOOK. Well, certainly if what you mean by "friends" is the type you wouldn't hesitate to ring if upset at 3am and where if you DIDN'T and they found out, they'd feel most insulted and disappointed and want to know why not - and vice versa? The type of friendship built by seeing and dedicating time and effort on one another consistently frequently, i.e. once every week or at worst, every fortnight?) Look at actions. Consistent and weighty ones; ones (in this sort of case) that require real time and effort on the part of the guru (or any person). Actions speak the truth more than mouths. The truth is: you can try to control anything that falls within your own, rightful control remit. But you're only supposed to do your best. If you try to force things or persevere for too long, then, Fate/God/whatever up there tends not to like it because you and 'it' are supposed to work as a team. You do too much and step on its toes by doing more than your share and encroaching onto its territory, it tends to punish you (e.g. you get what you want, only to find out that it doesn't suit you after all...or even the opposite...which is when you realise you pushed too far for too long and should have read the signs/hints to cease, such as, the fact you found you were having to work and struggle against obstacle-after-obstacle and discouragement, TOO hard). It''s like Mah Jong - analogised with surfing. Surfing takes you at peak performance AND fate's gift in the form of that perfect wave, meaning, you've got to turn up daily and keep at your peak of practise so that's it's more about When, not If, given that odds are that one in however many waves WILL be perfect and let you who's equipped to succeed, succeed. But that can't happen if you're not constantly on-form nor constantly THERE. That all equates to "Right Person, Right Place". Now you need ", Right Time" as the third element of success. Right Person (prepared and ready to smash it) is your responsibility. Right Place (being in the sea, board at the ready, prepared to wait patiently) is half yours, half 'Fate's' (like, the road to the beach could be closed). Right TIME (of the perfect wave coming along) is definitely down to Fate (using Nature as its tool). That's 50/50 (2.5 + 2.5). Neutral-ish example in my own life: I found my dreamhouse but was out-bid (Waaaah!). A year-and-a-half later, in that area again, I revisited that house (from the lane right outside), only to find that it had gained new neighbours with LOADS of VERY yappy dogs. AND the picture-perfect country fields - overlooked by the massive raised deck - because this was summer, STANK TO HIGH HEAVEN OF MANURE. AND other things. 'Goes to show' ya. If I'd pushed (raised my bid), I wouldn't have had a very nice time, putting it mildly. The second-favourite house, however, turned out to be absolutely gorgeous, highly convenient ...perfect. However, there's also doing UNDER your 50%......annoyed....punished/taught a lesson by Fate/Nature/life/whatever-whomever. So that's why you must ONLY do your best. If you DON'T do your best, however, it just means your head wasn't into it as much as your heart or vice-versa (everything is a twosome relationship, I've found/worked-out - including with your entire environment. Honestly, I've been monitoring this kind of stuff (including checking up on people and things (I like reading to the last page, the The End) my entire life - it is how it works. You have the right attitude in your head but your heart isn't in it or has taken a nap, whatever... Think of this book like two pieces of flint. Strike them enough and inevitably sparks get produced. (It's kind of insulting that we human beans are that easy to influence, isn't it, lol; we forget we're just naked apes that've learned to do stuff and to sound clever.) (LOL, I'm not drunk, I'm spiritual in tandem with scientific - holistic.)

"That's that the trouble with getting together too young (or even two young for you guys), " Should add - Or too soon (e.g. after a prior break-up). Whichever...that would make it Right People, Right Place, Wrong Time. And that's the fixable one. :)

Haaang on a cotton pickin' beepin'n minute - what's this WHAT'S THIS? : "AND how does it work when we sit down and talk about feelings, i get a response that it is boring and uncomfortable for her. She says, "I just want to live life and have fun" .... What does this mean , how do i deal. I get not wanting to be lectured but how do we have these deeper talks if there is no expressions." Boring and uncomfortable for her? What? Que? What? She just wants to what - WHAT??? It MEANS she can't be arsed to improve your relationship. Right, I'm getting. Come on - spill. What else is she like with everything else to do with your union - or should I say, NOT like/FAILS to be like (especially for a woman and one who values her 'marriage')? ANSWER THIS QUESTION BEFORE THE OTHERS PLEASE. (F*ckadoodle, Houston!)

WHAT THE F*CKETY F*CK???!!! "So another question, I have heard of women playing hot and cold, but do the rules differ when it is by the second, what i mean is we will be chilling on the couch and she will show a sign of playful affection, just something small like a playful poke with her foot or somthing like that, I will reciprocate the action with somthing equal or less, such as a light gentle poke back, but then i get a loud verboius "DONT TOUCH ME!" so i will respect and distance, but then 2 seconds later I will get another poke. and the cycle repeats." She WHATS?! I'm shocked. And very concerned. That is pure Bait & Switch. Oh great. Keep meanwhile reading the book. It's obviously providing you with things/behaviours to compare and which contrast (vastly...chasmically!) with hers. "Could we please analise and assess this, what should i do in this situation to reciprocate the small bit of affection i get. I realise the "dont touch me" google says it could be because im too rough and aggressive but i am taking the care not to do that and only giving half back of what i get. SUGGEStONS? ..... btw, this was chapter 1 in the book, affection...." Not yet, I'm too shocked and dismayed. And I first need your response to my post above. God. When was the last time you had a cuddle? And when was the last time someone slapped her maniplate, mind-ucking face? Sorry. You're getting my emotional reactions as I'm dealing and discharging them before I'll be ready to give you my intellectual input (i.e. Spock can't get a word in just right now). Effing hell tho. Here - have a hug: ((((((HUG))))))) (it's a parental one btw).

Question: how long (or short) into your relationship did she start refusing to emotionally pull her weight, cooperate, and start to taunt you like that?

"but kirk keeps saying, this is wrong, run, its a settlement, we dont belong here, its not right" And usually, it's Spock - the sensible one - who has to be the one to inform and warn Kirk to run, isn't it, while Kirk's like the self-indulgent, romantic one who whinges, Awww, can't we just stay and see?! So this is OPPOSITE to how things normally work. Which must mean, you've been trained to operate like Opposites Day, i.e. too things work OPPOSITE to what you'd expect. (Don't mind me, I'm just thinking and processing out-loud.) Unless it IS KirkSpock telling you to run in-unison but Kirk is the one in Cognitive Dissonance (want to stay for friendship & company reasons / think I'm wasting my time and should end it). Best I re-read this thread (should be free some time Fri) under this new light, hmmm.... Back to you...

PS: Not 'What's Love' - 'What Is Love'. Freudian? 'What is Love? Baby don't hurt me Don't hurt me No more.' "Innit, tho".

- no. Just 6 months or so - that sounds a little more realistic, or even a year, I think you are starting to see my point a little more, but that is the thing, we never diverged, but we never grew closer. To elaborate more there was no honeymoon phase at ALL, or a dateing phase, or any cuddleing ever, or any intimancy, there is frequent(weekly-bi-weekly) shagging but its more like lip service just like the kiss(peck on lips) each day when i get home, at bedtime and goodmorning, we skipped right past all that and just settled right in to retirement. did I mention that I have never even seen a toung here. This is our entire romantic life right there. Also please note, this is not all her fault , I am at fault on this one too. BUT it is this very thing that created this post. When we came together we had focus on some of the more fundimentals of the right things, she liked me cos i wasnt a (major) drug addict or wife beater and i had a job, but that was the end of it , she says that was enough for her. For me it was more so cos i was the lost puppy, I was tired of the romantic feelings that lead to turmoil and the chasing and the dating, not to say i was on a rebound or anything like that but I can admit I was emotionally exhausted, wheather it was wrong situations or cos i was too immature or whatever, i was just done with it and had given up and settled. It was because I gave up listening to kirk and followed through on the spock elements, such as she was settled, she was faithful and loyal and took good care of me, at the time I didn't eat verry well, not really a depression but a ongoing trend at the time, and she was used to cooking every day anyway. So MY BAD, but I saw the signs but didnt really care, dont get me wrong, she is a cutie and has lots of good qualities, but there was never a romantic connection or attraction, and again, I thought this was the right thing because nothing else worked and I was willing to try anything. It sounds weird to say this but I remember that the reason I chose to stay was cos she reminded me of my grandma, who was the closest person to me (GF and I are of same age), more so than my parents who were there and stayed together for us kids, but at the same time were never really there. She was loving and caring and trustworthy, at the time i also thought that was enough and worth devoting to. So that was my WAR-wound. Her wounds were similar as to being a single mother with 3 kids, married but seperated for years ( she really started early). Life-coach stuff: i will pick this one up in a minute. First Questons: Ok Sorry, I think my emo side took over there a bit and I may have been a bit excessive. I do have a habbit of being excessive, exagerating, over reading, looking too deep, and have been called a spazz in the past (not by her). For the past 2 months now I have had an emotional awakening of sorts, it is causing me to question everything, rock the boat and cause turmoil with all the things I am not comfortable with. I havn't been able to sleep well, been very emotional, dissatisified, whiney and strangely enough disconnecting from my crutches. I think in this regard I may have been too pushy and confrontational and she may have put up a temporary wall. Having said that, thanks for the definition of bait and switch, this will help me with what to do if we hit that rutt again. Really this is just a small single incident that I may be skewing and overreacting to and and not a general dynamic. And thank you for the hug, it meant alot to me. There is only been a few incidents of taunting since my drama started, i cant blame her for getting sick of it, I am noticing too that I need to grow up a bit. But as for the first part its kinda oppsite, I will try to explain but not in this sentence. So that is right, as mentioned above i got here doing the opposite of what i usually do, which in the past was let kirk run amuck. I muzzled that skunk and let spock take over. Going back to this book, I have to say that I basically knew everything already, but it is highlighting and reinforcing things, and ya Im learning a few things too. It is also a good medium for us to communicate things better. It is funny about it though is that I am more the one who needs affection over her, and somthing I have supressed till recently. One of the things that creates questions and doubt in me is that I have confronted her about this. She says she does not like affection, showing it or receiving it. In fact i tried a spontainious romantic gesture the other day where i surprise pulled her over in a traffic stop and spraypainted (washable) hearts all over the car and sent her on her way. LOL, she got soo pissed, flipped me off , said my hearts looked like penises, and flipped out that i disrespected her. I apologised and reasoned with her my innocence for hours, and even after forgiving me she was still mad at me, even though she was remorseful and supressed that angry feeling. BUT THIS is common, when i give other romantic gestures, even when they are not so elaborate, she seems to take them as insults. I have recently gone to her with this concern about affection, and lately she tries to show affection sometimes by sitting beside me or trying to cuddle, but I just don't feel it, it just dont feel right/natural. More like anything given is forced and not real, so there is an effort behind it to accomidate my needs, I recognise this, but also that barrier that suggests we are incompatable. if that makes sense. It kinda leads in to chapter 2 about recreatioinal activities, where in the begining she adopted the common interest of being a gamer and playing video games with me, but again somthing i could tell is that it was forced and not natural, and sure enough that interest faded in her along time ago. This leads to another issue regarding recreation, but we can save that for later. Life coach stuff: Idk , just asking, I have been using youtube for opinions on situations more recently, just trying somthing new. But it funny you mention it, another thing i wanted to address, I have 0 friends on FB, I actually dont get involved much with S&M (social media). But I dont really have friends IRL either, there is noone to call at 3am. Alot of my friends were partiers who i ditched when i ditched the party, this was a year prior to us meeting. I had few other hobbies, but lately any fulfillment in them is dried up. I dont understand this control thing, I understand what you are saying but perplexed as to what is too much, and back to the relationship when to throw the towel, or to step back. I am a fighter and will go to the end of earth if the need is felt, which is why this has continued, and why im not in an afair yet. I get what you are saying about being prepared for the wave and waiting for it. But for some reason i cannot translate this in to reality. I see something I dont like, I express opinion, no change and i am criticized for looking too deep in to things. I create a push, force it, get resistance and agression, after the third push, realization sets in that i had it right, and we are both happier because of it. see someting else, not as severe but just fine tuneing, push again, resistance and more agression, push 3 more times, wrong this time, back off, see another thing push, get resisted, was right, but now an ass from previous time. so when am i too pushy, when should i back off, how much is enough or too much, I see things as if they were a bully that need to be stood up to, or there is no change. My house was a struggle to get, i had to loanshark 10k for the downpayment when i was already 10k in debt, and pay 25% more than the asking value, I did not like this house at all, it needed too many repairs and it is too small, ahem, cozy, which i knew would cramp my space, but it was all i could get. We had to move far from home and our families, this was a decision that was easy though since it was a last resort gamble, even not keeping up with it and loosing it would have gotten us ahead,it was cheaper than renting but the other option was to continue to pay insane rent prices and would have eventually lead to homelessness. So it was literally the only place I could get, and lucky it panned out. Also I have to say, I have a bit of a different view(or maybe not), I believe in the quantom and resonance, and that if any of the smaller elements are off it will reflect in the other ones too and can be seen in multiple angles of the bigger picture. everything is black and white only, but it adds up to the shades of gray. I do say all the time that we are all just monkeys that fell out of the tree and bumped our heads. OK!, with this recreation thing (chapter 2) I am also realising having problems finding myself, due to the recent struggles I spent an insane amount of time working to get caught up,years in fact. in the more recent years I have turned to video games and gardening as a hobby, but I am finding that they are more just time killers than actually fulfilling, and there is little fruit from this labour. I am trying to find things to reconnect to , but the list in google has no appeal, even going for walks seems mundane now. and there is nothing i can think of except go back to the bar and play some pool, but I know that will also be dry too or lead down an unhealthy road. Her hobby is cooking and cleaning and feeding dogs, (other than me!) So in summary we dont even have recreation activities for ourselves, much less one to share. Any ideas how i can kick start this, not just for relationship building but for rediscovering myself too? So chapter 1 and 2 are a fail. actually as im reading, it seems that we have failed almost every chapter, I feel resonance in almost every case study. I cannot figure out how I/we are not in an affair yet. Crazy ya! Again dont worry, I cant be hurt too much as we are not very connected, but this is a worry in itself, making me question if our relationship is right.

also tangent... more hollywood influencing me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dR2vNOAmYdg enough to wonder but not enough to fill out the form in the link! gawd im a floozie!

Heya! "- no. Just 6 months or so - that sounds a little more realistic, or even a year, I think you are starting to see my point a little more,..." With what you've described above, I'm thinking I see your point better than YOU do! Do you not realise those attitudes and behaviours are, in the romantic arena, not just against the normal grain, not just inappropriate, but ABUSIVE? Do you know what c**k-teasing is? I'm sure you do. Well, if you're in a starting state of seriously deprived and neglected in that regard - then even just a TOUCH that SEEMS/PRESENTS AS affection is enough to get you turned-on! So what she's repeatedly over a period, i.e. PERVASIVELY doing is, TAUNTING you, TORMENTING you, HEAD-F***ING YOU. Don't you know that? Have you never experienced or heard of behaviour like that before? Did it really not occur to you that you were being mis-treated and in a very fundamental, HIGHLY personal way as can over time reduce your confidence as a man to shreds? ..."but that is the thing, we never diverged, but we never grew closer. To elaborate more there was no honeymoon phase at ALL, or a dateing phase, or any cuddleing ever, or any intimancy, there is frequent(weekly-bi-weekly) shagging but its more like lip service just like the kiss(peck on lips) each day when i get home, at bedtime and goodmorning, we skipped right past all that and just settled right in to retirement. did I mention that I have never even seen a toung here. This is our entire romantic life right there." That is not a romantic relationship. It's most fundamental, vital element is not only completely missing but is being insincerely offered then seconds later retracted. "Cat toying with mouse, anyone?" Repeatedly withholding while deliberately leading you on like that, when you're powerless to resist or to NOT react, and represents a frequent rejection and erosion of your deepest, most core self, is a behaviour that comes under Gaslighting and Sadism. Your promised 'port in a storm' has turned out to be the storm in your port. "Also please note, this is not all her fault," I'll be the judge of that, thank-you. I'm the one that knows partner abuse when I see it. That you're together may have been at the time consensual thus 50/50 but - how cruel and sadistic do you have to be to tantamountedly severely starve someone before wafting a sandwich in front of their face and when they try to take it, whip it away against whilst confusing and disappointing them and making them feel in the wrong - and for what? - for having read the elements of that act CORRECTLY as would and should normally LEAD to a heartfelt cuddle. I'm not surprised you seem to keep falling for it, only to be disappointed (crushed more like) yet again. You're that desperate for love and affection you CAN'T AFFORD to give in to hopelessness over the so-far disappointing fruit-machine because - what if this time it WILL pay out! You're probably powerless NOT to 'fall for it again' by now - your inner animal will be the one 'grabbing for that potential opportunity', seemingly stupidly and naively, because that's how desperate it would be for affection/physical validation and self-esteem-protection, ie. SURVIVAL reasons, by now! What has me so shocked and appalled has NOTHING to do with how you got together, for what non-orthodox or purely circumstantially convenient but long-term-inappropriate, downright naive and ignorant (or just inexperienced) reasons (i.e. "a port in a storm"), or whether you both should have. This is about what she's CHOOSING to keep NEEDLESSLY doing to you when - you're in the (presumed) same 'why we got together boat' and becoming dissatisfied, yourself, and yet I don't see YOU still depriving/starving and pr**k-teasing HER! Nor refusing to cooperate to improve matters. And, right now, there's the difference that makes *all* the difference. IF SHE DOESN'T WANT AFFECTION (AS COULD AND NORMALLY DOES LEAD TO SEX) WITH YOU TO FEATURE IN THAT (SO-CALLED) RELATIONSHIP THEN WHY DO THE (SEEMINGLY) PLAYFUL POKING/THE COME-ON IN THE FIRST PLACE. Doesn't make any sense - it makes the opposite. Unless you know what I know. It's a deliberate, massive, oft-repeated Betrayal, even if you literally were Just Friends. And a Dealbreaker. I wouldn't have dared get close to her or let myself go, either. (So YOU work right, then!) Conscious You can think it can put up with it or that things can be improved, but, I'm sorry, your inner animal (or core being, if you prefer) knows it's being damaged bit-by-bit-by-bit and meanwhile (what I call) having the love kicked out of you bit-by-bit-by-bit. So NO WONDER you're on here, asking What Is Love? Because, what you're 'receiving' has NO place in a pairbond and is NOT the actions of someone who loves you. Nor LIKES YOU. Or CAN'T...isn't capable. Yet for some reason, doesn't want to do the decent thing and "let you go" so that you can move on and inevitably meet a DECENT, KIND, HEALTHY-MINDED woman who wouldn't ever DREAM of playing mind-games involving taunting her supposed Numero Uno - OR ANYONE - like that!...and whom would WANT to be affectionate (and more) with you. If she holds that much contempt for you, your feelings and mental welfare that, she 'gets off' (which she must because she keeps repeating it like it's her favourite game) on mentally, emotionally and sexually torturing you then - mate, she doesn't work right. Normal people can't remain with someone they don't respect, admire, love, like, etc. " I am at fault on this one too." Oh yeah? How. "BUT it is this very thing that created this post. When we came together we had focus on some of the more fundimentals of the right things, she liked me cos i wasnt a (major) drug addict or wife beater and i had a job, but that was the end of it , she says that was enough for her. For me it was more so cos i was the lost puppy, I was tired of the romantic feelings that lead to turmoil and the chasing and the dating, not to say i was on a rebound or anything like that but I can admit I was emotionally exhausted, wheather it was wrong situations or cos i was too immature or whatever, i was just done with it and had given up and settled. It was because I gave up listening to kirk and followed through on the spock elements, such as she was settled, she was faithful and loyal and took good care of me, at the time I didn't eat verry well, not really a depression but a ongoing trend at the time, and she was used to cooking every day anyway." So you smoke Weed. FYI, so do virtually ALL mistreated or post-traumatised individuals. Because, handled correctly i.e. if you don't abuse it - it really helps with healing, not least by re-setting your neurological system whereby things get clearer and back into proper perspective thus easier to face and deal with. It's Mother Nature's gift. Also, itself, it's not addictive. The tobacco that you roll it with is addictive (and a spliff made without tobacco, just all weed, is a spiff too strong for one person in one go). Well, anyway, recovering enough, to realise that you're hugely incompatible, and that your human needs refuse to be ignored or suppressed any more - or just, being ready again to have a REAL romantic relationship thus starting to see how odd your current one is, is a mistake anyone could make (and many do). Again, it doesn't, however, justify cruel teasing and taunting, nor being cockily blatent about your heart not being in it whatsoever ('I can't be arsed to repair or fix Us, it's boooring, just wanna have fun' (how old is she - 13?!). The only self-respecting response to those shocking admissions (in an ideal world) should be, Well eff-off then, you user! Just because you feel as guilty as her over having gone into it for the wrong reasons, doesn't mean you actually ARE. If you were - YOU would LIKEWISE 'not be arsed' and yet here you are, asking how to make the relationship BETTER....NORMAL. Meanwhile - treating you like that - she's making things WORSE....IRREPARABLE. IIt's just a matter of time WHEN you burst with resentment, not if. "So MY BAD, but I saw the signs but didnt really care, dont get me wrong, she is a cutie and has lots of good qualities,..." Someone genuine, with genuinely good qualities 'in other aspects/areas', would be incapable of lowering themselves to behaving like that, like a contemptuous sadist. Especially not to their partner...nor even a friend...nor even mere acquaintance OR EVEN TOTAL STRANGER. Just - not anyone. Quality people don't behave like that, wouldn't dream of it - NOT EVEN ONCE! - and would feel deeply guilty and ashamed of themselves afterwards and probably forevermore. They just don't have it in them - FULL-STOP. It would probably take someone putting a gun to their head. She doesn't sound anything like a cutie to me, mate - pff! She's got a disturbingly dark side. Unless you just mean, facially/physically. Well, now that you've started to wake up, to FEEL how much love and commitment has been kicked out of you (for too long), you're going to start finding her physical appearance more and more unattractive until downright ugly and repulsive. That's what happens. "..but there was never a romantic connection or attraction, and again, I thought this was the right thing because nothing else worked and I was willing to try anything." Yes, because at the time it seems logical. Hence so many people do it. It wasn't a mistake when it was what you needed and needn't REMAIN a mistake (were she normal and healthy and genuinely kind and caring) - and WOULDN'T, if it could be solely down to you (which it can't)). What's made it a mistake is her unacceptably (in the context of a society of 2 people) ANTI-SOCIAL attitude and behaviour!...the OPPOSITE of Affection. It's abnormal. It's the opposite to loving behaviour. It's cruel and nasty. Behaviour like that has no place in ANY close, human relationship. Sorry for repeating myself, but YOU NEED IT. *************** As it's very late - this and the other asterisked-off section I'll read and answer tomorrow (I'm deliberately not looking). So don't post or reply yet. "It sounds weird to say this but I remember that the reason I chose to stay was cos she reminded me of my grandma, who was the closest person to me (GF and I are of same age), more so than my parents who were there and stayed together for us kids, but at the same time were never really there. She was loving and caring and trustworthy, at the time i also thought that was enough and worth devoting to. So that was my WAR-wound. Her wounds were similar as to being a single mother with 3 kids, married but seperated for years ( she really started early). Life-coach stuff: i will pick this one up in a minute. First Questons: Ok Sorry, I think my emo side took over there a bit and I may have been a bit excessive. I do have a habbit of being excessive, exagerating, over reading, looking too deep, and have been called a spazz in the past (not by her). For the past 2 months now I have had an emotional awakening of sorts, it is causing me to question everything, rock the boat and cause turmoil with all the things I am not comfortable with. I havn't been able to sleep well, been very emotional, dissatisified, whiney and strangely enough disconnecting from my crutches. I think in this regard I may have been too pushy and confrontational and she may have put up a temporary wall. Having said that, thanks for the definition of bait and switch, this will help me with what to do if we hit that rutt again. Really this is just a small single incident that I may be skewing and overreacting to and and not a general dynamic." ***************** And thank you for the hug, it meant alot to me. I'LL BET! I know what starved feels like, crikey! In fact, I'm not sure if it was simply a hug or in your case, CPR! PS: wee hint taken - let's be real: someone in your position can't have too many: (((((((HUG)))))))) (and gentle Back-Patting) ***************** (For tomorrow) "There is only been a few incidents of taunting since my drama started, i cant blame her for getting sick of it, I am noticing too that I need to grow up a bit. But as for the first part its kinda oppsite, I will try to explain but not in this sentence. So that is right, as mentioned above i got here doing the opposite of what i usually do, which in the past was let kirk run amuck. I muzzled that skunk and let spock take over. Going back to this book, I have to say that I basically knew everything already, but it is highlighting and reinforcing things, and ya Im learning a few things too. It is also a good medium for us to communicate things better. It is funny about it though is that I am more the one who needs affection over her, and somthing I have supressed till recently. One of the things that creates questions and doubt in me is that I have confronted her about this. She says she does not like affection, showing it or receiving it. In fact i tried a spontainious romantic gesture the other day where i surprise pulled her over in a traffic stop and spraypainted (washable) hearts all over the car and sent her on her way. LOL, she got soo pissed, flipped me off , said my hearts looked like penises, and flipped out that i disrespected her. I apologised and reasoned with her my innocence for hours, and even after forgiving me she was still mad at me, even though she was remorseful and supressed that angry feeling. BUT THIS is common, when i give other romantic gestures, even when they are not so elaborate, she seems to take them as insults. I have recently gone to her with this concern about affection, and lately she tries to show affection sometimes by sitting beside me or trying to cuddle, but I just don't feel it, it just dont feel right/natural. More like anything given is forced and not real, so there is an effort behind it to accomidate my needs, I recognise this, but also that barrier that suggests we are incompatable. if that makes sense. It kinda leads in to chapter 2 about recreatioinal activities, where in the begining she adopted the common interest of being a gamer and playing video games with me, but again somthing i could tell is that it was forced and not natural, and sure enough that interest faded in her along time ago. This leads to another issue regarding recreation, but we can save that for later. Life coach stuff: Idk , just asking, I have been using youtube for opinions on situations more recently, just trying somthing new. But it funny you mention it, another thing i wanted to address, I have 0 friends on FB, I actually dont get involved much with S&M (social media). But I dont really have friends IRL either, there is noone to call at 3am. Alot of my friends were partiers who i ditched when i ditched the party, this was a year prior to us meeting. I had few other hobbies, but lately any fulfillment in them is dried up. I dont understand this control thing, I understand what you are saying but perplexed as to what is too much, and back to the relationship when to throw the towel, or to step back. I am a fighter and will go to the end of earth if the need is felt, which is why this has continued, and why im not in an afair yet. I get what you are saying about being prepared for the wave and waiting for it. But for some reason i cannot translate this in to reality. I see something I dont like, I express opinion, no change and i am criticized for looking too deep in to things. I create a push, force it, get resistance and agression, after the third push, realization sets in that i had it right, and we are both happier because of it. see someting else, not as severe but just fine tuneing, push again, resistance and more agression, push 3 more times, wrong this time, back off, see another thing push, get resisted, was right, but now an ass from previous time. so when am i too pushy, when should i back off, how much is enough or too much, I see things as if they were a bully that need to be stood up to, or there is no change. My house was a struggle to get, i had to loanshark 10k for the downpayment when i was already 10k in debt, and pay 25% more than the asking value, I did not like this house at all, it needed too many repairs and it is too small, ahem, cozy, which i knew would cramp my space, but it was all i could get. We had to move far from home and our families, this was a decision that was easy though since it was a last resort gamble, even not keeping up with it and loosing it would have gotten us ahead,it was cheaper than renting but the other option was to continue to pay insane rent prices and would have eventually lead to homelessness. So it was literally the only place I could get, and lucky it panned out. Also I have to say, I have a bit of a different view(or maybe not), I believe in the quantom and resonance, and that if any of the smaller elements are off it will reflect in the other ones too and can be seen in multiple angles of the bigger picture. everything is black and white only, but it adds up to the shades of gray. I do say all the time that we are all just monkeys that fell out of the tree and bumped our heads. OK!, with this recreation thing (chapter 2) I am also realising having problems finding myself, due to the recent struggles I spent an insane amount of time working to get caught up,years in fact. in the more recent years I have turned to video games and gardening as a hobby, but I am finding that they are more just time killers than actually fulfilling, and there is little fruit from this labour. I am trying to find things to reconnect to , but the list in google has no appeal, even going for walks seems mundane now. and there is nothing i can think of except go back to the bar and play some pool, but I know that will also be dry too or lead down an unhealthy road. Her hobby is cooking and cleaning and feeding dogs, (other than me!) So in summary we dont even have recreation activities for ourselves, much less one to share. Any ideas how i can kick start this, not just for relationship building but for rediscovering myself too? So chapter 1 and 2 are a fail. actually as im reading, it seems that we have failed almost every chapter, I feel resonance in almost every case study. I cannot figure out how I/we are not in an affair yet. Crazy ya! Again dont worry, I cant be hurt too much as we are not very connected, but this is a worry in itself, making me question if our relationship is right." ********************

sorry, I know you didn't want me to respond but I want to say I do feel you with that, and this has not been a long term issue, just accumulating instances that have developed, and I do catch on to it quick enough to bite it in the butt, but bubbles up in another form. (sorry, when i said wash rind repeat , this was all only in a single evening) I want to also say that if i push hard enough I am sometimes able to see a positive effort and a desire to be here, and i think its more than a lack of desire to leave, I do think it is more than a financial dependance influencing this. and I have a committed the next 6 months anyway, similar to the time it would take to pack. So im here for a while. Also I try to see and remember there is good in everyone, I have also seen instances where the simplest of gestures can melt the darkest of hearts. I have to say I do like the F-bomb and gun idea, but a little expensive. Since I have time and a investment here I'd prefer somthing a little more helpful? constructive? uh educational? eye-opener? feel me? reflection tharapy maybe? maybe a perverbial slap to wake her up to realise these actions. Naw, thats not coming out right. I am not in a place of danger. What would be a good response if i wasnt going to amputate as suggested, but to treat what I see as a War-wound? as a third party observer, how would you address this if it were a general behavior? Or should i classify this as beyond repair and bail?

https://www.mindbodygreen.com/articles/types-of-soul-mates I recently googled what a soulmate is, I thought there was only one type, I am only thinking of the Twin Flame (if i am interperting these definitions right), This is the one I desire most and who kirk would chase to the end of the earth. Unfortunately to me this will always be the only one real soulmate, and the only one that is allowed to carry that name, there is no such thing as anything else .... but, just like the book 4u, i will be flexable here to honour the ones in my life and maintain an accurate communication here today. every one else is just a reflection, an image of, and just a part of the one that is truely my other half. Wife is definately at the least a soul companion. Thank-you for being my soul teacher, giant squishy bear hug 4u. It seems I have other souls with me here too, but not like either of you, but more than 0. I love and appricate you all. I had a dream last night. It was one of my horrible exes, mad long ago. She was super hot in her way, but not too hot for me, she rode a bike and wore a leather jacket, she had a solid job, a girlfriend (which was kinda hot too, plus i knew she still liked men). When i fell in love with her I saw her as a strong beautiful independant woman with a sense of adventure. When I confessed this love she reciprocated. That night she showed me her war-wound-scar, it was a huge one, bigger than i had ever seen at the time. But this scar showed me that alot of what I saw in her was wrong. she was independant, that was true in a sense. but it was just a bicycle for transport, abuse for such a high end mountain bike. her GF was just a roomate, and the leather jacket was not reflecting her strength but was only a front saying to the world she was strong. I realised she was not the one and i turned my back on her, I now realise I should have been there for her at such a vulnerable time, to offer at least a bit of comfort and that her trust was not misplaced, maybe to stay for a minute to help even a little with this wound. but i didnt , i shut it down and left it without another word. She stopped coming to my "corner" and I never saw her again till last night. Horrible , huh? There is another horrible ex I would love to honour today, so that i can say more than nothing for the first time in what feels like a century. She was in another dream recently too. She also shows up more over the years than anyone else inside and outside of the dreamscape, maybe because i regret this one the most, maybe because i loved her the most? Again gorgeous, super hot, inside and out and still is, And great thick stylish hair. Our time together was short, just a few months but in that time it was great, no, amazing, she was the one who really stole my heart. We both got along great with each others friend groups. Listened to similar music. she WAS a gamer, And we always had great times together no matter where we were, there was never any jealousy or obsession and we accepted and appricated each other for who we were, even when we were apart. She loved and cared for me more than anyone ever had. She was a cat or some relation to that, maybe even a lion. My favorite was that she used to rub her head on me and purr, and for what ever reason it vibrated my heart more than anyone else ever could, I actually meyow to this day still to honour my love for her. Over the summer holidays that year she went to europe to visit family, she promised me that she would be back in two months, we couldnt talk, long distance was too expensive. Two months went by and school started. by the 3rd week of school I went to the cafe every day to see if she was there yet. but nothing. I was so heartbroken, I felt that she was never coming back, it was the first time i missed her and it killed me inside. At the time I would have done anything to get rid of that feeling of loss. So what did I do to cure that? I tried to rebound. I rebounded so hard it turned in to a game of nickey 9 door, i was worse than the milkman. On day 1 of week 5, she appeared in the cafe, but instead of being happy and running up to see her I felt my moment of regret. When i realised my mistakes, when i realsied i wasnt paitent enough, when i unsucessfully tried to have an "affair", I realsed how much she was too good for me and realised that i was too immature to be with her and that I would just drag her down in life. I knew she was destinied to have a wonderful and sucessful life, she was always a good girl and i was a party animal. As it panned out she is now very sucessful and has a family of her own now, not sure of the details. Even weeks later her friends approached me and told me how much she still loved me, I already knew that, and i could feel her tears for me and i cried about that too for the hurt i caused her. but to the friend i said nothing, and to her nothing and i let it go without a word. And each time we do meet I can no longer look her in the eye but hold my head in shame for the lack of answers and pain I caused her. She is still one of my biggest regrets, to this day i still want to tell her the truth, but dont want to stir the pot because it's in the past and again she is better off without me. The other part of that is what would have happened if i would have maned up and made the commitiment to be the best I could for her, she could have pulled me up so high. So MONIKA, even though i could never say it, if nothing else, that part of my heart you had/have will always be yours. IDK why i had to say that, maybe just looking for words, like let it go, or dont, maybe respark it. Or maybe my point is that idk wat to do about that either, or a reflection on how i need to grow up, and maybe still, or maybe its that noone in life is perfect but we all try to do our best, no matter what our skill level is. or maybe just a attempt to release the guilt. IDK Back to this though, I think you should change your name, soul mate is very deceiving to me, so from now on I will call you soul-teacher! Also I should confess im not really a notdog, i could very well be a hotdog, in all senses of the meaning. More realistic would be that I should change my name to devils advocate, because that is how i learn and trust, by adding controversy and chaos, I am able to see better what stands true. It gives me clarity in the truth of things but at what cost, it also causes chaos in that revolation. just to reiterate, im sorry for hitting a trigger on you there, but its funny how just by describing one situation I am able to flip your opinion so fast. so please note those 2 brief comments were just that, a single situation and a onesided view, which I am able to stamp out, and may have caused that issue by being to pushy and demanding (trying to create surfing waves). More realistic and a longer term issue though is the fact that she doesnt like affection. But what about this twin flame., wheres that, is it one of you in disguise hidden simply cos the timing and/or situation isnt right, just yet? or maybe you are all just the reflection, much like a trail of bread crumbs? Again I feel that if i stay, my strong will of commitment will leave no room for my twin flame, but by letting go it will mean loosing all you souls, which doesnt seem right either, and how is just letting everything go prepareing me for my destiny, espically considering how well it has worked in the past? So the solution to my problem will not be found in the book but book is a great tool to repair and prepare whatever it is, again , it is more so do i belong here, I feel like i need to be ready for what is coming in the next 2-3 years, no matter what it is. and maybe finding my twin is an illusion, maybe there is no such thing, or just not cracked up to what i think it is? Maybe I should just commit and provide the best to my companion and just leave kirk tied up.

Apologies for the massive delay, NotDog, I barely have time to scratch my nose at the moment (things keep crashing-in, unexpectedly). I did ask you NOT to interrupt, though, which you did immediately (well before you'd had time to realise I was being delayed again). This plus the fact you keep veering-off all over the place, trying to lead the proceedings, and mentally digging too deep to find meaning because it's just not there on the surface levels where such signs should be (BAR friendship...ish), amongst myriad other signs (like, expecting a long-haul, automatically or by-order, without realising it's purely any posters' prerogative and choice, because you hadn't explored the existing threads to get an understanding of how it all works)... All of this, tells me you're simply not ready for guidance yet...which is no-one's fault, I should swiftly add, is simply down to the fact you've only just, too recently, started to wake up (which is perfectly normal for your stage of recovery) to the fact that your port in a storm bears too little resemblance to a normal, healthy, romantic pairbonding, let alone a healthily-foundationed one. You two might have to find a way to have that Separation - in order to lose those inappropriate or unacceptable habits, then start your relationship pretty-much from scratch, in order to rebuild its dynamic (if you find by then, the two of you really don't want to split up). Fine if you were both enjoying your unconventional 'coupledom', but you, understandably, are not (nor would I be, btw). For a start, it's a PLATONIC relationship, which makes it only a live-in friendship. But even then, it doesn't appear at all 'cuddly' (I know someone years-starved of affection when I see them). Secondly, I don't care if your partner taunted you protractedly during one, single evening or, as you're now admitting, that AND 'here and there'! Taunting, only SEEMINGLY petty bulying, which touch, as I say, is FAR more potent when one is already too-long affection- and sex-starved, has NO PLACE in a loving relationship - NO PLACE. (I could at least understand if it'd been some mutually, genuinely fun game or something. But, in context of everything that's gone before, it wasn't and isn't. So it demonstrates either huge, banked-up resentment on her part (which could just be down to her attitudes/perception, rather than anything you are or have done), or, a sadistic streak that's started to finally become too much to hold in/keep hidden. You'll know which, deep down. This is not a real or healthy, romantic relationship. You can keep reading the book and seeing if what works on the vast majority of men/women, works on her. But my advice would be to try Couples Counselling, asap (we have a directory - if they're relevant to your area?) because this union obviously needs outside help; it's not something that can be sorted on here at this premature point in your transition and proceedings and what with my having had too little time. For now, I'll read your latest and respond to anything new or that alters what's been concluded from before... But following this, my suggestion is that you leave-off posting for a few more weeks (to give your brain time to sort and catch-up with what's already overflowing out of its mental-emotional intray) and just every week/few weeks (you or I, whoever gets there first,) we type a standard sentance, like, "Just bumping this up to keep it open" (normally only a Mod's privilege but I'm giving you explicit permission here because I really do feel for you and do want to help if I can, ONCE you're readier...once you've got used to your 'stock-take' and lose your desperation and impatience (and taking us off-tangent whenever a dawning proves too painful...plus the excuses you're making for her/it). ALTERNATIVELY, you use this thread as a blog to record your thoughts per incidents/events or each week (whatever), but, keep it quite short and sweet (no self-analysis) and as soon I detect readiness, I'll jump back in again (in other words, I'll still be reading you). Any questions? One caveat: if the thought of a 'read-only' blog, even for a few weeks, sends you stratospheric and/or cranks up your sense of isolation/abandonment, tell me immediately. I'm not in the biz of making people feel worse. To continue as normal, however, I WILL have to get bossier and more strict with you (manage you) to keep you focused and on-track. Fairenoughski? How do you feel? What do you think is the your sensible choice? (No rush, think it over; I know decisions feel are incredibly difficult in the position you're in.) *********************************** "I am noticing too that I need to grow up a bit." No, that's the whole problem (solution/liberation, actually - from this rotten dynamic, or her, or the bad match, whichever): you HAVE been growing up...whilst you were half-asleep (you're Sleeping Beauty, male-equivalent, you are, lol). That's why you've now started waking up (still groggy, eyes not wide-open yet, though). Don't be scared/worried, it's pointless - this is a GOOD process you've entered; it happens to so incredibly many...is happening 'all over the shop' as we speak, in fact. It happens to YOU, you don't happen to it...it's the boss of you and sets its own pace. This is the road to Contentedville. (Bumpy, isn't it.) PS: Not that I want to encourage more discussions about Spock/Kirk, as it was supposed to be just a simple one-off analogy to help you understand, but - it's definitely Spock who wants you to stay. Kirk wants out of that not-nice dynamic, definitely. (He wasn't made for living in an ice-palace, he's sick of shivering and finding only hard surfaces everywhere.) HOWEVER, this culmination, this line-in-Kirk's-sand, is likewise perfectly normal for one in your situation so - this is all GOOD but, typically, just bloody never feels like it at the time. I've been through this same type of awakening/recovery, and most visitors here since forum year dot, too, if that helps?) This IS you growing-up/having done so (and being able to feel the difference, take stock of your life, etc.) :) And my own very strong suspicion is, the money (that you've suddenly introduced onto the evidence table rather late, note), DOES influence her wish to stay. Could be 'port in a storm' or could be you ended up with a woman who lives her life like that (passenger). ******************************* "and I do catch on to it quick enough to bite it in the butt" Neither you NOR ANY intimate partner should HAVE to! It shouldn't feature! Get it? ", but bubbles up in another form. (sorry, when i said wash rind repeat , this was all only in a single evening)" Highly characteristic on her part. Bad treatment/behaviour comes out of one hole in the damn, so you plug that up, then it burst through a NEW hole...now you've got fingers from BOTH hands constantly occupied..... victims end up feeling like Ollie The Octopus or Garfield (the sucker-ed car-window toy). Sounds funny but bloody isn't. " I want to also say that if i push hard enough I am sometimes able to see a positive effort and a desire to be here," Neither you NOR ANYONE should HAVE to! It shouldn''t feature! Get this, too? "(and i think its more than a lack of desire to leave ((I don't)), I do think it is more than a financial dependance influencing this ((doubtful, even if what you meant was 'inter-dependence' i.e. mutual)).) and I have committed the next 6 months anyway, similar to the time it would take to pack." OKAY - *BETTER*! STAY IN THAT MINDSET - DON'T TOUCH THAT DIAL! YES. LET *HER* PROVE YOU, AND WHAT HER ALL-PERVASIVE, OTHER NEGATIVE SIGNS/PORTENTS STRONGLY SUGGEST, WRONG! (Nice one...THERE you are, finally! - HELLO! lol) Let's combine using Hervey's advice and 'giving mainly her the stage to see what she decides to do with it/whether she's even CAPABLE of responding/reciprocating' affecting or affectionate words/gestures. Don't wait for her to initiate/give permission, however. Take the initiatives that Hervey advises. Approach it like an experiment (and be prepared, even expect to be hurt/disappointed so that it won't). "Also I try to see and remember there is good in everyone," Er...not always, actually. Especially these days (there's high concern amongst the psych industry at the 'recent' explosion of narcissism or actual NPD). Or it's 'just' that their Light Side, weight for weight, isn't worth the Dark Side (because it's not normal-dark, it's...psychologically-disturbed Dark, diff/all the You-eroding diff). "I have also seen instances where the simplest of gestures can melt the darkest of hearts." There you go: look what you've put: the darkest of hearts. You admit it's too dark (for you/for a romantic r/ship). Plus, earlier, you said 'playing hot and cold', not 'going' or 'switching' - PLAYING...like a cruel, ANTI-friendly, actually, game (that only she enjoys/gets anything out of but which injures and confuses YOU). "I have to say I do like the F-bomb and gun idea, but a little expensive. Since I have time and a investment here I'd prefer somthing a little more helpful? constructive? uh educational? eye-opener? feel me? reflection tharapy maybe? maybe a perverbial slap to wake her up to realise these actions. Naw, thats not coming out right." Because your emotions and Cognitive Dissonance and Confirmation Bias (google) are still making you go 'She loves me, she loves me not, she loves me, she...'. (Re-read this thread, you'll see.) "I am not in a place of danger." Emotionally and psychologically, you absolutely are - IF you were to continue doing nothing and/or weren't setting yourself a sensible, 6-mth deadline, I should add. 'To SHREDS', I said. I don't use hyperbole and sensationalism. THIS IS REAL. Yes, crazy, back-to-front, "just not right"... BUT REAL. Or should i classify this as beyond repair and bail?" You'll be qualified to make the correct decision in 6 months' time - AND any leaving her will be done with your head legitimately held high, no guilty conscience, no regrets.... (The boy is oooo impatient, lol...but that's normal too, for one in your 'just started waking-up' position.) (PS: your title should read, WHERE is Love!)

DON'T POST YET - THERE'S MORE TO COME. I'll be as quick as I can. (That's an order, Soldier! ;)

Hmm... Okay. I might take that back, about taking a break from this thread. I now see you've started spilling ("haaa-lellujia!" LOL) Maybe my unavoidable absence was calm-down enough...Let me keep reading (having to do it in snatches). BUT DON'T REPLY UNTIL I SAY I'M DONE RESPNODING, OK? (Thanks) And respnod only to every statement/comment of mine - in order of typed, please, thank-you. :) And in FUTURE, keep all chats/musings in separate posting boxes, labelled in caps as such, and the same with business (the happenings of your relationship). It's too messy, otherwise...I can't re-find sentances in the mess and chaos. Let's see how we go this time. ****************************************************************** Oh, wait - have I misunderstood? : ""(and i think its more than a lack of desire to leave ((I don't)), I do think it is more than a financial dependance influencing this ((doubtful, even if what you meant was 'inter-dependence' i.e. mutual)).) "" ? Let me re-read... Did you mean: Wait up... QUICK EMERGENCY INTERMISSION: "- no. Just 6 months or so - that sounds a little more realistic, or even a year, I think you are starting to see my point a little more, but that is the thing, we never diverged, but we never grew closer. To elaborate more there was no honeymoon phase at ALL, or a dateing phase, or any cuddleing ever, or any intimancy, there is frequent(weekly-bi-weekly) shagging but its more like lip service just like the kiss(peck on lips) each day when i get home, at bedtime and goodmorning, we skipped right past all that and just settled right in to retirement. did I mention that I have never even seen a toung here. This is our entire romantic life right there." Ugh. Just UGH. And "Brrrr...!". (((((((((((((((WEEK'S-WORTH HUG))))))))))))))) From all the highly-characteristic signs and symptoms I've seen (my only remaining question on this score is, is she Reactively (acting) like that or is she like this at closer quarters Permanently?) - IT LITERALLY IS NOT...POSSIBLE...FOR YOU OR ANY NPD'S VICTIM TO TAKE A SHARE OF RESPONSIBILITY IF YOU DO NOT (AND NO NARC'S PARTNER EVER DOES OR CAN) SHARE AN TOO-ALL-INTENTS, WEIGHT-FOR-WEIGHT, *SHARE OF THE POWER*. Power IS Responsibility, Responsibility is Power. I always say: give someone power over you and see what they do with it. We see what SHE does with it, eh. She has all the power where you getting your basic, Human relationship needs met are concerned (which is everything). It's all on her terms! But if you want to take 'responsibility', then it's only for the fact that you thought you were getting an easy emotional-hospital stay, same as she seemed to want/need, but you were mistaken/fooled: once you started recovering, feeilng better, and naturally expecting things between you to develop, bugger-all happened and - worse. Prod....prod back...."Don't touch me!" - are you beeping kidding?! Given the rotten, seriously-neglectful backdrop - she's acting like a bored, sadistic mental-patient! However, almost all victims say this at-first (it's not just her/him, it's my fault toooo) before they've managed to wake-up enough to sit up in bed, have their first coffee, think straight and start joining dots correctly. (No worries again). You (clearly) do not know what *I* know, do not see every tiny thing (and dot) that *I* see. (Yet) Put it this way, luv - "I DON'T FANCY YOURS MUCH (UGH)!" If she knew she tends not to need affection (cuddles her kids, does she?), she should have warned you early-on so that your decision to enter the r/ship were an INFORMED thus CONSENSUAL one. Alternatively, if she DID but however many years into it, went OFF you, she should have done the decent thing, TOLD you, suggested counselling and, if that didn't work - "With regret, we're Over". She prefers to keep you in the ambiently AND covertly AND overtly tortuous Igloo, sorry - HER Igloo - while she behaves like an Ice Queen dominatrix to your hungry Masochist! (which, clearly, you're not!). (She's Malignant Narc type Covert, subtype Cerebral, not Somatic...they start off happy to hug and shag and then 'suddenly'......nada.) Or IN-CER-ED-IBLY IMMATURE and without a CLUE how to relate, romantically! (Same thing, actually, with the exception of awareness or not over what she's doing to you.) And, before you say it: neither can victims take responsibility for their own, less-than-attractive, out-of-character conduct or behaviour, either, under their level of antagonism and provocation. It's REACTIVE on your part. SHE....is the one that CHOOOSES.....TO *START* IT, AGITATE IT, RUB SALT IN THE WOUNDS (loneliness, affection-starvation/forced hunger-strike, censoring important, serious, resolution talks, etc., etc.) THAT SHE AND ONLY SHE INFLICTS AND KEEPS GOING (via whatever format). Neither is it your fault if you 'involuntarily' entered that relationship for the purposes of re-enacting the Igloo Of Neglect you were brought up in whilst meanwhile *consciously* believing you were choosing to 'be with (someone just like) your grandma'...you had no control (they for too long keep up a false impression/persona) and ANYWAY, could have found yourself happily proven RIGHT (only you weren't, she turned out to be nothing LIKE your grandma). Many people do GET the port in a storm-come-reminder of your granny type of relationship. You haven't because it's apparent that your partner is not in it (or never was!) for the same reasons as you. She doesn't sound 'recover-able', unlike you. Possibly not even counselling could help because - BOOOO-RINGG...she, just like all GIRLS (stunted ones in adult bodies included), just wants to have fun! (...and to keep enjoying this total power over you and your emotional state and eventually, wealth and welfare). My over-strong suspicion is, you're her "Sugar Daddy" (she just SEEMS the same age as you but in fact IS only maximum. 12!) and that is the ONLY reason she's ever with you (or anyone). We can't even limit it to, started too young before she'd had a chance to grow-up but, regrettably, that would NEVER excuse her on-off atrocious, cruel, cold, neglectful, power-wielding and -abusing behaviour. THAT'S why she doesn't leave or want you to. She'd be like that even with Brad Pitt or someone utterly perfect in every possible way. It's zero reflection on the victim. This is why I and some others say, it's more emotionally damaging/dangerous for MEN to get with a female Narc/Sociopath (****don't know yet - tell me more about the money dependency, whose it is, more is, who started that****)... ...Reason being: unlike women, they're not USED to finding themselves powerless and not in control, including the things that once were theirs to control and should still be. (...well, except maybe previously, during their childhoods). So they're desperate to take however much of the blame because in their mind that means they have the onus - the power and control - to FIX that problem. (Nope...it takes Two (normal-healthies); you can't do her workload too, especially not while only she gets the perks, the things SHE wants from the coupledom). She LOOKED LIKE Granny, but, too-evidently, that's as far as it went (v. common error, though). Re the rest of her: what DREW you (because your inner animal smelt she was not "like" granny), and KEPT you drawn (aside from the lovely, recuperative sleep that the r/ship made possible as your first stage of recovery), was the fact it smelt your parents and/or your experience of being neglected, KNEW that this 'relationship/emotional case had never been properly or confidently solved', and switched its agenda SO STAYED. Conscious You, however, was the one who needed to be in that 'coma' of a sleep, not your inner, naked ape; he (poor sod) has been being hurt and insulted etc. like that for way longer than you. This isn't even Spock and Kirk's battle. It's Inner Animal You versus Conscious, merely-as-yet-undecided, You. YOU would be capable of gritting its teeth, but, IT wouldn't...it's already had enough ice, steel, and bait-n-switch whippings, thanks. Mistaking an ice-cage in a storm for a port, just because it featured a comfy-looking rucuperation bed, is more globally common than you could ever know. DO NOT be ashamed and all that nonsense. Just spill, spill, spill (we've all been there, been there, been there - you're safe to be honest and emotional and vent your anger once it squeezes through your tiny gap like it's just started to (ref f bomb lol). Go For It THAT way, it might not even NEED months, let alone 6. I am still keeping an open mind, though, in case I'm wrong- aw effit, I never am, that's why all malig Narcs, once they realise this, without exception hate my guts LOL. Only Truth-Seekers, not Liars, Deluders and Truth-avoiders, can stand Truth-Speakers with X-Ray Specs. And I....am *telling* you: You're not "too sensitive", you're not "over-needy", "too pushy", "too confrontational" (being "too pushy" with attempts to be lovely - what?!?...ooh noo, what a monster you are (tsk))....and all that Gaslighting ollocks. You're acting and reacting NORMAL (just all over the place a bit, still) FOR A NARC'S VICTIM. Textbook example, NoNottDog-but-HotDog! Temporary or life-long state on her part - who cares. Still does the same damage inside and out. ***Oh, and question: if she's not getting affection and sex from you - where IS she getting it from?*** Or are you and I expected to believe she actually IS the human anomaly? ...back to: Tell me about the money side of things. ALL of it. Again - happens - to zillions of deep-thinking, tolerant, generous-minded ('good in everyone'), understanding, brave, hard-working, experimental, "different from anyone else" Empaths. PARTICULARLY (if they're a Narcissistic type Sociopath) if you can basically fund their life and lifestyle. But I'll see what you say about the money side. ********************************************** CRUCIAL QUESTION: What if, while you were inching/rushing towards coupling-up, she'd said this to you: Listen, just to warn you: I just want to be taken care of. I'm not interested in the romantic side. Or if I am - still not interested in affection or sex. Or being a proper, genuine, romantic couple full-stop. Would you have said: "EXCELLENT - WHERE DO I SIGN!"? EQUALLY CRUCIAL QUESTION: Have you, this entire relationship, been pulling your weight with the housework and childcare - and consistently/reliably - or does she not work and is the homekeeper to your bacon-earner and you help out as much as you genuinely can (because her hours are 24/7)? Next thing: "Also I should confess im not really a notdog, i could very well be a hotdog, in all senses of the meaning. More realistic would be that I should change my name to devils advocate, because that is how i learn and trust, by adding controversy and chaos, I am able to see better what stands true. It gives me clarity in the truth of things but at what cost," But it means you staying for too long than is safe or healthy in the ice-lion's den. Better SHAKE yourself awake, get the eff out, THEN grieve and tolerate second-thoughts and attempts and concrete plans to resolve (on her part for a change). Otherwise its claws WILL shred you to pieces (especially when, as it is, you're still trying to (understand thus) heal your parentally-inflicted cuts and gratings/scars). You've HAD your sleep ...and so presumably (or allegedly) has she... yet nothing else is on offer. Only YOU now naturally are ready to now behave, romantically, like a loving couple. She either doesn't want to or doesn't work right. If she doesn't want to - DO THE DECENT THING AND AGREE TO LEAVE. If she's not programmed right - ...well, you might have a fight on your hands (albeit, not if I'm directing you). But you're NOT her dad. You're already Single and have been for years (did you realise that?). PS: "I was tired of the romantic feelings that lead to turmoil and the chasing and the dating, not to say i was on a rebound or anything like that but I can admit I was emotionally exhausted," Hah! TELL me aboud id! And: "But I dont really have friends IRL either, there is noone to call at 3am. Alot of my friends were partiers who i ditched when i ditched the party, this was a year prior to us meeting. I had few other hobbies, but lately any fulfillment in them is dried up. " SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE, NARC (CURRENT) VICTIM. ("Wel-comme toooo-our woooooorld". Don't worry, you'll be fine. Or better than fine if you can BLOODY SLOW DOWN, SPEEDY, give me a chance to catch-up - lol. It's teamwork, but I lead - YOU FOLLOW. That's how it works best and fastest AND 100% correctly and thoroughly.) STILL NOT DONE, STILL DON'T REPLY YET....

PS: This part of the process where you're not SUPPOSED to have any friends. Very typical for victims stood at your precise point on the Escape into Recovery Path. Just one other person (not her!) - a Constant (google). Fun, yes, Friends, no. That's not a problem for you, is it? You were neglected to whatever degree so had to learn to amuse (and take care of) yourself to the same as in antidotal, degree, yes? You'll possess an AMAZING imagination! (There are benefits, too, you know?) Right now, friends are too much distraction. Your mental intray, neglected for YEARS, is MORE than full enough as it is (picture these reams of A4 data sheets as your emotional impressions and experiences - generated internally AND whatever anyone else chucks in there). Conscious You wants pals. Inner Animal just wants to get on with it and deal with making new (better) relationships of all kinds, later. It's WORK first - THEN play. Ever more so when you're locked in the ucking fridge-freezer drawer and really starting to shiver and turn Blue. 'This is survival, Jim, but not as we know it!". (Feel free to just quote StarTrek, but don't go into it LOL)

"My instincts tells me to reach for the sky." GOOD! EXCELLENT! (STREAMERS AND BALLOONS!) Good lad! (oop, sorry, don't mean to sound condescending (if it does), just trying to parentally build you up a bit :)) So now all we - (me lead, you follow, I'm the one who knows this route and has the only torch - just logical, Captain)....so all *I and You* need to do (and I *through*) you, is tip the power scales more to Equal and (insert thriller-style music) see what she does with it. She, your alleged life-partner, if she's normal and just (still) in a bad way/injured including resentful over her ex or something, should react like she's PLEASED AS PUNCH you're finally up off the floor and (albeit, limpingly) walking again (STANDING-UP for yourself). STILL NOT FINISHED... just keeping them smaller to help you keep on-track or break off when you need to....

Right. No, I DIDN'T mis-understand this: "I want to also say that if i push hard enough I am sometimes able to see a positive effort and a desire to be here, and i think its more than a lack of desire to leave, I do think it is more than a financial dependance influencing this. " 1. Again, you shouldn't HAVE to push to see a positive desire-into-effort. 2. And then, only 'sometimems' (jeez). 3. If it's mostly stuff and promises out of her mouth but no corresponding action to show so, however, then it doesn't count as positivity/effort "sometimes", it becomes rarely or never. (Question: which is it?) 4. Again, I too-heavily suspect there is NOT normal, proper, decent desire to stay, that it IS the money...and she put on a show ("ve-ry en-ter-tain-inggg") but couldn't keep it up so dropped the shaggy-cuddly bunny act .....all the way now to the freezer cabinet, getting not much more than the odd bash whenever she decides to pack MORE stuff into it with you...which makes it even colder ("ICE, ICE, BABY..."). However, saying that, I concede there may be lots of other cushy, convenient or life-saving/propping/enhancing aspects to being 'with' you, living in your (yes?) apartment, etc. Because this is what THEY, not want - NEED - from another human. And (all together now) people of either gender tend to be willing to do ALMOST ANYTHING for Love, ...innit. WHICH IS FINE...BRILLIANT, IF YOU'RE WITH ANOTHER NORMAL-HEALTHY THUS LOVING, RELATIONSHIP CHAMPIONING OTHER LIKE YOURSELF! Right Qualities (Yours) Wrong Recipient (Her) (At this point of reading - ) EITHER you woz conned/mis-sold to/deliberately not fully-informed/warned and were too exhausted and sleepy to notice (until from now) OR she's not grown and matured alongside you, like you undoubtedly thought she would (after your nice nap); she's stunted; she IS a child and you'll never have a proper, mature, grown-up, PART-NER. No-one to lean on, depend on, gain moral support from - ALL OF IT. Just a moody, disinterested, irresponsible, oft-vindictive daughter....Petra Pan....And, LIKE a 12/13-year-old, she hasn't got a CLUE how to convincingly "do" adult-woman behaviours, attitudes, duties, just "fun-fun-fun" with her skipping-rope and, neither having developed adult understanding, is effing low in sensitivity/empathy so you get, HAHA, SHUT-UP, DADDY, YOU'RE BEING SILLY AND BORING, NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAAAH (where's my pocket-money!)...KICK! Hence, LIKE a moody, female version of Kevin-The-Teenager (but the unnecessary rage due to unwarranted resentment bit kept hidden on the inside, bar what leaks out...like the stupid, childish, but effing cruel prodding malarchy.... - SEEING THE KID YET? FITS, DOESN'T IT? But we'll see. Intention/aim or agenda is what I'm looking for. Because Sociopaths (Narcissistic) can also have this oddly childlike simultaneous with strees-wise adult appearance and vibe to them. IS she unaware. Or does she know what she's doing. And if she does - and is she getting-off on it.

OMG, there's even MORE! I mean - briliant spilling/releasing - well done, very very brave (Gold Star!). But it's a LOT? Crikey. Right, do us a favour and reply but not in here (until I say Done - Roger - Over), Save them in order, in a Word document or whatever package you have on any of your devices. We've got to try and get in-synch. Trouble is, I'm an even deeper diver than you are, mate. Where most normals just do the Crawl on the surface - me, I look like a Sine wave or The Man from Atlantis: I go horizontally only by going sea surface-mid-seabed-mid-surface-mid...up-down-up-down AND I'll go back and re-do a few feet here and there, there and then, not get to the end and go, Shite, I missed that seaweed, it coulda been an octupus, doh. I'm anally methodical and don't like not noticing and missing even one inch. Anyhoo - do you feel better for having got that all out in the open? (I haven't finished reading and re-reading yet (said deep-diving along all diff depths, levels, angles of view), just, it's important to know.)

PS from before: "Also it seems I have a fear of letting go too. How crazy is that!?" After all that you and too many others have been through - perfectly normal! The more empathic you are, the harder it is. At first.

STILL NOT DONE...right in the middle of a long response, into which I'm trying to explain as well as find and paste the right internet links for you/your case so that you can more quickly find/identify/get to know 'her' (the real her - if she indeed is one). It's vital to know which type so that you approach and handle them right...customised, if you like. Plus, understanding it all speeds your recovery and strength of mind (availability of mind for a start!). I'll probably have to finish and post it tomorrow night if I'm not out or out late tomorrow (not sure yet) or Sunday - let's see. (Sorry you're having to be so patient, that's a lot of data you've given me and I don't want to rush this and, as I say, miss anything...I'm still adding, taking into account, more and more evidence if you like.)

Getting there...thanks for being patient this time :) It's better that you have these lags, anyway...gives your mind time to sift through all the info and join dots, even ones you'd forgotten you'd 'filed' or hadn't realised you had because they were subliminal or seemed unimportant at the time. For now: something that hit me: "The other part of that is what would have happened if i would have maned up and made the commitiment to be the best I could for her, " It would have ended. No matter what Conscious You (or any human) thinks and feels, your inner animal is still (caveman wiring still in-play even today) in charge when it comes to pairbonding, and still, today, knows far-far-far better than you on that score (hence WHY the ancient saying, Actions speak louder than words). Your feet sensed she was wrong (insensitive at the least, I'd say!...to insensitive for you), decided and made you act accordingly. Hurrah for our inner animals (sometimes...sometimes we have to get the better of them, but...not here). Better? :)

"For the past 2 months now I have had an emotional awakening of sorts," You REALLY HAVE, haven't you! Wow. I mean, I said spill, I didn't say Tsunami! LOL Not that I'm complaining - the more data the better and usually I'm having to nag for it.... but with you, I've never SEEN so much data all at-once. That was more a projectile puke, mate! LOL You must feel a lot better for that, yes? And clearer?)" (still reading/re-reading...)

MUZZLE RELUCTANTLY ACTIVATED -- YOU HAVNT SEEN LIFE IN THE FAST LANE YET - I AM PUKEING IN MY MOUTH --- BETTER BUT EVEN MORE CONFUSED --- KEYWORD REQUIRED "MUZZLE OFF"

"It is funny about it though is that I am more the one who needs affection over her," "" One of the things that creates questions and doubt in me is that I have confronted her about this. She says she does not like affection, showing it or receiving it."" Funny? Hah, that's an understatement! And not liking affection, well, for a normal, red-blooded bloke (who's more or less recovered from his injuries) - that's UNACCEPTABLE...it's as bad (albeit different) as having Herpes. It has to be disclosed within the first few dates or as soon as Going Steady hits the table. She should have warned you. And warned you that it was NOT down to injury-based needing-not-to-be-touched, but her default, her normal. That she didn't, was False Advertising/Failure to Disclose Important Information By Which To Rightfully, Emotionally Protect Yourself (and make an informed choice to pair up). Abuse (the lure under false pretenses). Instead, she let you assume she was just like you and in the same predicament/state as you. Hence now this wake-up shock as had you coming here. (Here's 'funny': You've woken up, only to find yourself undergoing ANOTHER awakening...a 'RUDE Awakening'! (Funny in a cynical way, anyway.) It's NOT beeping abnormal, however, if you think of yourself as a bloke she NEVER fancied nor grew any fonder of, nor planned to (just wanted a non-pestering dad to take care of her...a dad she could be IN CHARGE of, CONTROL, though (through her behaviour/lack of - the rules in LaLa Land always contradict, you'll discover)...You ALONE were (slow..culminatively) injured when you met...(hit critical capacity), felt it as knackered....wouldn't have been all that much into cuddles at that point of injury/exhaustion ((been there, done that!)), etc., either. Perfect. She could pretend to be your girlfriend without having to show it...'prove' it (or not have to prove it for very long)... ...*UNTIL NOW, WHEN SHE DOES HAVE TO. But she can't, so she bats you away. (*now that you've fully woken up after a lovely, safe-feeling, healing rest, starting to feel better, fitter, more red-blooded again, going back to normal) Instead, now that the ice wall is failing - she insensitively/hurtfully, as I say, bats you away...makes you feel like you're NO FUN (jesus wept) whenevr you want you and she to join in an ADULT! act and couples' duty of tending and fixing to any holes in the relationship....oh, don't get me started, that'll do for that bit. Did you have siblings? If you did, and one of them had issues with you (because they were jealous/threatened/you were their punchbag), that toe-prodding-don't-touch-me absurd taunting - ONLY if you put her at that age into that scenario does it make sense. But you're not siblings... and she's not 8 or 10 (or an immature 15-year-old) and nor do you have the same parents busily playing 'fluidfavourites' as causes such bullying (SIBLING bullying is officially the worst form of abuse out fyi). Plus she's not a very NICE sibling (not everywhere it counts), she's an Ice Sibling, but whom would RATHER scrape the behavioural barrel (or can ONLY scrape the barrel?) and in so doing, *risk coming across to you as a cowardly but bitter, jealous/resentful/whatever CHILD-SISTER/TEASER-TAUNTER-BULLY.....THAN START TO WELCOME CUDDLES AND THE REST IT LEADS TO INTO YOUR RELATIONSHIP. (* If you're supposed to believe she values the relationship then why (and seemingly so NEEDLESSLY) risk you deciding to by-rights dump her based purely on the fact you've been given the overwhelming impression you've mistakenly been dating a pre-pubescent (or at best, an adolescent) in a mean and vindictive mood (that she wants to take out on you)! Answer: because she's too desperate (to get control over you/the relationship again) to CARE (they don't consider consequences, don't extrapolate like us normals; they'll deal with it/lie about it later). But, again, I'm betting "being in a relationship" helps her with her bills and living expenses, eh. Confirm? Could she financially make ends meet on her own? (To be fair-minded while I'm at it: Could you?) Who was paying for her kids' upkeep when you met her - or had they already flown? How's her relationship with their father? " and somthing I have supressed till recently." Yes, because they won't ever cooperate with you to let you or you together resolve and gain closure on any clash/situation. So you never get justice or closure, have to keep stuffing it down, stuffing it down, leaving it for the very next chance (which just never arrives).....until you pop your cork and start insisting you do (want answers). "In fact i tried a spontainious romantic gesture the other day where i surprise pulled her over in a traffic stop and spraypainted (washable) hearts all over the car and sent her on her way. LOL, she got soo pissed, flipped me off , said my hearts looked like penises, and flipped out that i disrespected her. I apologised and reasoned with her my innocence for hours, and even after forgiving me she was still mad at me, even though she was remorseful and supressed that angry feeling. BUT THIS is common, when i give other romantic gestures, even when they are not so elaborate, she seems to take them as insults." Oh FF Sake...... Assuming you hadn't ever been told/indicated, never to do that/touch her car? (can you confirm?) - it's quite simple: EITHER: (a) IF YOU ROMANTICALLY, GENUINELY LOVE THEM and aren't just tolerating them while you use them (or aren't personality disordered, including, Paranoid, always assuming the worst, never giving you the benefit of the doubt, always approaching you suspiciously), YOU SEE THAT KIND OF GESTURE AS DEAD ROMANTIC....A lovely, passionate (dramatic) act. AND ARE THRILLED. I mean, yeah, you might insist your bf be the one to have to wash it off, but, in the moment, as allegedly her long-term live-in boyfriend, a woman still into you, knee-jerk would (or should) (and point out the mess he's made later). OR: (b) Have a guess! Mate, she's Iffy in a bad way, clearly with you for the wrong reasons (using you). Sorry. But she is. I've seen this before. She's ticking copious boxes for a Covert subtype Cerebral. The Somatics (whom only TEND to be Overts) are "sex addicts" (but in their case, it's a comorbidity with "Sexual Narcissism", another sodding personality corrupter). Your Cerebrals think they've above yucky, animal sex. They're prrroooud of their (they've simply decided) superior intellects, doncha know, hwhat-hwhat... (Your Cerebreals are usually the cold, disinterested, cruel, haughty snobs, or even slightly robotic...even if they don't ever let it show (above-table).) Except when they've been dumped and didn't see it coming so didn't have another "lilypad" at the perfect 'kept-warm-on-the-side' temperature (other lover/fan to leap to/land on). In those cases, like the Overt-Somatic, suddenly they're Don Juan again (and even start pumping their body again...if they're men, only the upper half though...too lazy, but the women, similarly). They use being fabulous/just right for you in bed (or the promise to become so if you just wait a bit) as a luring/entrapping/enmeshing tool. Once you're captured and chained by the heart (and knickers) - suddenly, with your Cerebral, it winds too quickly down or stops-dead (with or without unsubstantiated excuses, like, Impotence, Depression, whatever) - or becomes weird/cold to make YOU stop wanting it. Therafter, it's cool on a good day, chilly on an average day, downright deep-freeze when you challenge them over or ask for anything they don't want to provide (they think they're the boss of you and/despite which, all the providing should be done by you (back-to-front-delusion hence contradiction)). Forget emotional support. ************* Yeah, I've read enough. All caught-up. . And you sound more on the same page than you did before. Feel free to reply now and thanks again for giving me time to catch up (and scratch the 2 weeks' rest idea - no longer applicable). :)

(We crossed-over) MUZZLE OFF! (haha, sounds like Mazzeltov!) PS: But - "MUZZLE RELUCTANTLY ACTIVATED -- YOU HAVNT SEEN LIFE IN THE FAST LANE YET - I AM PUKEING IN MY MOUTH --- BETTER BUT EVEN MORE CONFUSED --- KEYWORD REQUIRED "MUZZLE OFF"" What-what-what?

PS: Sorry to interrupt your turn but it's just an interjection, a wee observation to add: "BUT THIS is common, when i give other romantic gestures, even when they are not so elaborate, she seems to take them as insults." Again (bears repeating): not insulted - THREATENED. By the thought of now being called to PERFORM - to LITERALLY ACT like your loving girlfriend, now that there's no way to keep pretending she's into you (rather than convenience or whatever perks). (Unless there IS resentment that's wholly warranted built up inside her) she is now unable to keep you at bay. She should be on the same recovery (and reignited needs/desires) page as you. TO NATURALLY STEP UP - or to even want to try. In line with you. Nowhere to go now...save for, PUTTING YOUR RECOVERY BACK so that you'll be in the same place as before, accepting CRUMBS when what a romantic relationship is supposed to feature is the whole meat 'n two veg (and by now, gravy). If you were even tacitly promised it or assumed it would be the natural outcome for you BOTH. Only, she still ain't working right whereby it looks like she never did. The romantic car biz was an attempted hug and snog. She punched you off her and away from her. Like (on a simpler scale) being slapped round the face for handing her a gorgeous box of chocolates that showed you were thinking of her and what you think of her (and how valuable to you she is). SHE IS *HORRID* I feel SO SORRY for you (and quite right too - everyone here should) (and you should too). Intermission over.

(Now awaiting your reply(s) - if you weren't sure that it was still your turn?)

yup, muzzle off, enjoyng the peace, bbs when i go bi-polar again! 3 day cycles rn.

Pardon? Can I have that in longhand English, please?

Oh - BE BACK SOON. Sorry, I'm used to BRB. Bi-Polar? It's not bipolar. It's big-time grieving; it comes in 'portions'...in WAVES. Your mind rations it out like that so that Conscious You doesn't break with the strain of so much processing and emoting (including so many past memories that understandably got misfiled). Still, good to know yours is currently every 3 days. So were mine, actually. Ah...."twins, look!" (haha, just being silly). How many hours/what portion of the day do the waves last for? Do you need any help? Can you feel the anxiety physically as well as in your mind?...behind your diaphram? Are you letting yourself cry? I hope so because it flushes a lot of the mental toxins out, is really good for you. So is sleep (so you can be processing without having to watch/re-experience the upsets). Don't be intimidated by your rollercoastering, intense emotions. Thirst is an emotion as well and you're not scared of that. It's just your tangled brain untangling itself and producing sensations called overwhelming feelings. Any chance you can take a bit of time off work to chill and sleep a lot? Meanwhile, this might help. We've got to disempower the situation to get you feeling better about feeling so rotten for a while and appreciating its a GOOD thing, it's you processing-into-healing fast (bit too fast, way faster than your mind's used to): Here is the wonderful Dr Ramesh Ramani to describe and explain "your" 'girlfriend' for you - expansively but concisely - including explaining how the behaviour affects and impacts on you, the (soon-to-be) survivor: ********** https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEFyXHPAVso ********** PS: don't worry. You were bound to have a reaction (normal, healthy); you're safe now you're here; you don't have to grieve on your own. You can have a whinge, a rant, a well-earned tantrum "at" her or life, etc., right here. I'm used to it. It's healthy. It works. (When you're ready?) For now, let's put it back to its simplest terms: you were trained to live with Emotional etc. Neglect; your parental template (for your future mate-choice) therefore got built around Neglect; unavoidably (because of how the brain prefers places it knows) - when you needed a recuperation phase, your idea of "familiar thus safe to sleep in" was a relationship with a similarly (or even worse to make noticing stuff easier) Neglectful person. During your 'sleep', your inner animal finally got a word in and spent the entire time yelling at you - 'We're worth more than this, we've ENOUGH of Having Enough of neglect, when you wake up, you and I are going to TACKLE this, finally, and do what it takes to (re-)qualify for the QUALITY partner we deserve!" Conscious You is gutted. Inner Animal isn't, it's throwing a party, and is impatient and putting a sense of pressure on you (contributing to that sense of panic). Meanwhile your mind has more experiential/emotional filing-sheets in its in-tray than it has hands for! However, it's very clever and adaptive and will soon see that pace as NORMAL (your eQ and iQ shoot up) (it's definitely not all bad), which will stop the "heartache" and bad, racing thoughts and/or feeling of falling apart (nope, it's just a feeling). You're going to come out of this, upgraded, thanks to all the hard-hard work you weren't even aware you were doing all these years with her. And then when you're ready to pairbond again, you'll attract a likewise upgraded model. Because that's YOUR 'consequence' of having wandered exhausted-ly into becoming boyfriend to someone whom (certainly alone, behind closed doors, with her romantic partners) is an unfair, ofttime spiteful-without-a-cause, (ref car-hearts -) ANTI-grateful (tick!) Cold Fish (- and, from what you described, you'd probably get more responsiveness and feeling from a blow-up doll!). She could probably just about do and get away with nothing more demanding than, Okayish Housemate. Or 'Lady Behind Cheese Counter'. PPS: Giving you the middle finger? Seriously? What's her name again - Trevor? Has she got Love and Hate tattooed on each set of knuckles? Good GRIEF!

Hey, what's happening? Are you alright? Are you feeling almost paralysed because you're so engrossed with mountains of processing? Or has the you-know-what suddenly hit the fan over at yours and you're in talks/fights? What? Talk to me?

Here you go - you can delegate loads of your filing paperwork to Dr Ramani, she'll sort most of it for you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouCDC2yeMFk&t=28s : "3 of the most cruel narcissistic behaviors" (When you feel up to it -) play all of it but pay particular attention to 09.42 or thereabouts: the intro, including re. the lack of genuine mental-emotional *and* physical/sexual intimacy. "Breadcrumbing" starts at around 15.52...'A relationship with a Narcissist is like a FAMINE, almost...'; 'Living on crumbs'. (I describe it as the psychological-nurturance equivalent of developing a well-layered-on, too-tight, Gastric Band - in response to their mistreatment/misbehaviour - known as (in whatever way/style, immaterial), "Managing-Down Your Expectations", which all types and severities of Narcs do.) Dr Ramani then gets to your inner (neglected) child at around 29.00. (Sorry if it makes you cry (natural, necessary reaction, gender immaterial given how NPD abuse is gender non-specific) but you'll soon feel better and lighter for it. This is all very powerful, very effective Medicine: tastes horrid for a few seconds but then you feel better than before - increasingly.) *************** But do, as I say, give me a sign you're okay, just a bit overwhelmed/overloaded or RL busy?

Hi, Im good, -- great , life is in the way for me now!, gotta nother essay for you but need a day to type, luv u (as a parent) , thanks again, i have a gift on its way for you but again i type slow, for now , look to the stars, you may see me flying around with them!

Ohhh, haven't YOU turned out to be a total sweetie - what a lovely thing to say. (See? I've said it before and I'll say it again. Only the loveliest human beings get picked-on or bullied. Initially, they think you're so "Shiny Red Apple", they want to OWN you....until their programme meets that point when everything changes, goes up-side-down, weird and abusive/toxic...but that's another topic for another day.) Here, are you trying to make me want to adopt you? LOL You're very, very welcome. And as you sound SO infused and enthused - I can't WAIT to hear what's been going on. Obviously a lot, crikey! ("Dann-dann-DAAAANN!"...) BTW, I tried to watch a StarTrek film - my first ever - last night (which is entirely your fault LOL LOL (anti-Narc joke)). Don't know which one, but quite modern. And Spock looked like a human version of those Playmobile characters (and too young for the role, IMO)... Review: Zzzzzzzzzz... Have decided to keep an eye out for any from the original 70s series... To give it a fair trial. Plus, I did love the sound of those sliding doors ("Swish!.....Swish!..."). "Laters busygater"!

ok, so sorry, like i said way ahead here, Iv been ballin my eyes out and loosing sleep since the end of march. over the past month its been tears but tears of happiness as i connect to infinity, as strange as that is , but i am still expirenceing loss of sleep and anxiety also and fighing other negatives too including panic and overreactions. WARM MILK does wonders though, but its just as temporary as a bottle of wine. Also I have been saving these in notepad since day one, just cos its stop and go through out this entire thing. the emotional portions are at spuratic lengths. Also I need to admit I have been thinking about splitting this in to sub threads since day one as well, I was going to call it: the good, the bad, and the ugly, but there are more splitts than i can count right now. I am going to identify these as FACETS. But first to get started here I need to hit the breaks on you. I have to disagree that you can lead. I started this thread , there for I am the leader, I still need you, that hasnt changed, but i dont need a relationship councelor of sort, i need more of a translateor/ a dictionary and a spirit guide, for example when you defined the hot and cold, i needed the definition so i could target it more specifically, deep inside I knew what it was, how much i like it(sarcastic) and react accordingly to that. but wasnt able to describe it in real life to be able to reach out for help with it(I hope that makes sense). In general i am smart and dont really put up with bs. Have you ever heard of the phrase "as above so below", as I am flying in the heavens I need you for grounding. That slap once in a while to wake me up to reality. I have seen all the origional startreks, my favorite is the famous "Khhhhaaaannn" prase. More realistic though is I am closer to the next generation and voyager series, the newer movies are good too. But all that is in my past as well. Still it is a good connection point for us. Also it is strange that in your more recent dissillusion you are connecting to me more and more as you are now feeling some of my frustrations and alot of those points are bang on. BUT first , we need to stop with the anger and the hate, we cannot fight fire with fire or it will spread. It is strange, remember in the begining I said i can hear your words before you said thme, that I could feel your connection. well now I am hearing our words from here in these other FACETS. And be careful, all those sweet nothings you tell just might give me a thumper. So lets stop, reset, zen, meyow ... yummmmm! Everything before was just an introduction and faimilarization, but now i need to realign you a bit. Everything said earlier needs to be forgotten, its time for us to start over. SO WHERE DOES BUDAH GO FOR ADVISE? WAT IS LOVE ----------- there is a remix of this song out there that just blew up a few weeks after this thread was created, strange no,conicidence, maybe? anyway, this word still pisses me off, just due to the variations of it, as in previous posts lots of descriptions, but each apply to different scnarios to which cant be mixed and matched, ie .. how would you feel if we applied unconditional love to an abusive relationship? not good right, or maybe it is, mabye that suffering would install a bit of guilt in that NARC(narcicist). UNCONDITIONAL ROMANTIC PLUTONIC UNIVERSAL(holds atoms together) SELF WAT IS A SOULMATE ----------------- I notice you dont say much about this yet, maybe just because you are more focused on the current relationship dynamic? i thought there was only one, my other half, the one that completes and raises me, is this twin flame? this is one where the grandma elements are there but it is more where the elements of chemistry and passion and sparks are there too. going by your first intuition there is the suggestion that they are the one but i havn't noticed them yet and i should follow a book, to open that? I must say i am still very skeptical of this. or maybe this twin flame is just a reliable support, where there is no chemistry, no passion, no desire, but just a calm cool safe place. piss me off, so there are like 20 types now according to google, at this point i feel like anyone in my life is a soul connection, next there is going to be a soul "guy walking down the street that says hi". input? maybe i should give up on this soul stuff and just focus on reality? GRANDMA ------- grandma was the sweetest kindes most loving lady who spoiled me rotten, she was my favorite and another person I let down when she needed me most. GF is similar: sweet, kind, loving and careing. yes there is some resentment but thats it. not the NARC that I misconstruded. So why the resnetment, because dont forget there was my damage where i was weak and listening to spock. so any affection that was shown for me was returned with a defensive anger, so as we are getting angry at the 16yo bitch, it is me we should be angry at. and why did i not recipicrocate , maybe because I was shut down and knew kirk wasn't in it and my guilt reflected as defensive anger. Regardless, even after i read the book , I realise how there is no spark, or ever will be. I realise even if i decide to make the effort there is just no desire or passion too. This still angers me and I feel guilty for getting myself in to this situation. Again I still feel that I need to GO and end all this.... after all we all know you dont date your grandma ... slap me now. HOLLYWOOD --------- As I connect to you I have also been connecting to infinity I resonate alot with this and have for weeks now. It makes me realise how connected we all are. ANd its crazy, the more i resolve the more confused I am about what to do. And I start to see all these FACETS connect to each other despite my attempt to keep you all completely segerated. Despite that and the risk i take doing this, I'd like to show you your recognition in all this. Infinity sent A shout out to you as my SOUL BROTHERHOOD, so not only do i appricate you but the stars do too. https://youtu.be/ABO3meCl2vo What is also strange about all this stuff, and the book is that you all seem to think i am a girl. But maybe I am that backwards on all this? sometimes i cant tell if shes describing me or my counterpart. The way I have been resonating has been nuts, but if you ever want to follow me, feel free to check up on me as I am going to continue following this, I realise that you may not understand it all but let me know! Then again I know how this stuff works, so maybe i should stop wishful thinking and stick with reality?? SURFING ------- I understand what you are saying, but at the same time when I see someone drown, I throw the rope and pull them in, if they are unconscious I will jump in with the rope and drag them to shore. regardless I do more than just say , "hey the rope is over there" THE NARC CHILD -------------- ttyl, drop this for now. FIN --- Right now , i need some help , another translation, as i am also following other tarrot readings, I will listen to like 30 of them a day and its amazing how they are all saying the same thing. they are all telling me that i need to disconnect and to love myself. Now I know how to show love and feel love but how do I self love? I must say, my mind dropps to the gutter when I hear that phrase. But seriously, how do i do that when I need to fight these random bursts of anxiety? hugs and thanks!

Infinity said today: tell me the truth i asked love, what are you: , i am the everlasting life love said , i am the reoccuring joy of living. --roomey cute, just thought id add it in.

Heya, bear with - be with you tonight or tomorrow :)

...Or today, LOL - sorry. "ok, so sorry, like i said way ahead here, Iv been ballin my eyes out and loosing sleep since the end of march. over the past month its been tears but tears of happiness as i connect to infinity, as strange as that is ," Not strange at all. It's called the (Break-up) Grieving Process - emphasis on process. But there's another process that happens alongside (at first), after a Narc fauxlationship: basically, going Cold Turkey. The uggers get you addicted, you see (to Dopamine, mainly) and Trauma Bonded (too much Neglect is traumatic). "but i am still expirenceing loss of sleep and anxiety also and fighing other negatives too including panic and overreactions. WARM MILK does wonders though, but its just as temporary as a bottle of wine." Sure, but, needs re-administering or not, it still means you`ve found a coping mechanism so...thumbs-up! (Did your gran used to make you warm milk before bed or when you were upset?) "Also I need to admit I have been thinking about splitting this in to sub threads since day one as well, I was going to call it: the good, the bad, and the ugly, but there are more splitts than i can count right now. I am going to identify these as FACETS." It's better for you and for any of your respondents that you keep all of your biz and anything that interconnects in this one thread, please, since the clue of what we're primarily here for is in the forum name. But I could, if you like, post officially that all contributions are now open? "But first to get started here I need to hit the breaks on you. I have to disagree that you can lead. I started this thread , there for I am the leader," Nnnnnope - sorry. You're a guest. A visitor-caller at a house where you go to get help with solving your problems. A guest automatically knows to let the host lead ("When in Rome, do as the Romans do"), they don't get to dictate terms. (You don't do that at the Doctor's, now, do you?) (LOL, bloody hope not?) You can if you start a thread for the purposes of discussing philosophical matters, which is open to all, though. Unfortunately, since Covid and Brexit, life doubly busy, I don't have time for luxuries like that, sozzies. I maybe could pop in from time to time, but I'm in no position to promise even that these days; it'd have to be on an ad-hoc basis. "i am smart and dont really put up with bs." If you mean, how did a clever guy like me end up manipulated? Easy. They push your primitive, emotional buttons. It's all done via your primitive urges, needs, emotional buttons... Well, look at Stephen Hawking and say n'more! "I have seen all the origional startreks, my favorite is the famous "Khhhhaaaannn" prase. More realistic though is I am closer to the next generation and voyager series, the newer movies are good too. But all that is in my past as well. Still it is a good connection point for us." Nooo, it really isn't! LOL I just for some reason like certain of the series' phrases. Ah AYAIN'T no Trekkie. "Also it is strange that in your more recent dissillusion you are connecting to me more and more as you are now feeling some of my frustrations and alot of those points are bang on. BUT first , we need to stop with the anger and the hate, we cannot fight fire with fire or it will spread." Er - what, and what? "It is strange, remember in the begining I said i can hear your words before you said thme, that I could feel your connection. well now I am hearing our words from here in these other FACETS. And be careful, all those sweet nothings you tell just might give me a thumper." I hope you mean a migraine? May I ask why you're automatically supposing I'm a woman? Anyway, keep it clean, please, Finbar Saunders, thank-you. And try not to post when you're that bit too stoned, yeah? Cheers. "SO WHERE DOES BUDAH GO FOR ADVISE?" If you mean Buddha and not your mate Budah down the road (LOL): Further into his own, psychological-version universe (for everything tangible in this world there is a psychological equivalent (- me)) than average folks. "WAT IS LOVE ----------- there is a remix of this song out there that just blew up a few weeks after this thread was created, strange no,conicidence, maybe?" Yes, I've heard it on the radio. Good version. I prefer the original by Haddaway, though, for sentimental landmark reasons. He expresses more emotion than David Guetta's version. Here, give it a try if you haven't already? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEXWRTEbj1I Don't know if it's a Schpooky...When was this new cover actually released? It was my fave song in 2007, funnily enough (the original, obvs). I'll tell you what Love isn't, though: your ex. Don't hurt me no more, strongly suggests an ongoing state (pervasive pattern). Real Love doesn't hurt nearly anywhere near that much or that often. "anyway, this word still pisses me off," Oh, join the club! That's why I do this (it's voluntary...for "charidee"). "just due to the variations of it, as in previous posts lots of descriptions, but each apply to different scnarios to which cant be mixed and matched, ie .. how would you feel if we applied unconditional love to an abusive relationship? not good right, or maybe it is, mabye that suffering would install a bit of guilt in that NARC(narcicist)." Doubt it, considering, inability to feel or allow for guilt is one of NPD's (= Malignant) main symptoms. Definitely not good. Shave years off your life (inflammatory diseases, heart strain - you name it...depends on how long you're chained to the uggers). "UNCONDITIONAL ROMANTIC PLUTONIC UNIVERSAL(holds atoms together) SELF" Er.......what? LOL LOL - g'is a puff? "WAT IS A SOULMATE ----------------- I notice you dont say much about this yet, maybe just because you are more focused on the current relationship dynamic?" What, between you and your ex? Course (refer to above re. problems first, philosphical debates and existential explorations second. "i thought there was only one, my other half, the one that completes and raises me, is this twin flame? this is one where the grandma elements are there but it is more where the elements of chemistry and passion and sparks are there too. going by your first intuition there is the suggestion that they are the one but i havn't noticed them yet and i should follow a book, to open that? I must say i am still very skeptical of this. or maybe this twin flame is just a reliable support, where there is no chemistry, no passion, no desire, but just a calm cool safe place. piss me off, so there are like 20 types now according to google, at this point i feel like anyone in my life is a soul connection, next there is going to be a soul "guy walking down the street that says hi". input? maybe i should give up on this soul stuff and just focus on reality?" I don't really understand what you're saying or even getting at, LOL, sorry. So yes, I do think you should - ...well, probably save posting for when you're not floating off like a Helium balloon. I appreciate you're trying to work out Why You, etc., and connect it to a higher meaning, however, so I'll see if I can find you one or more articles on the meaning behind the Narc relationship experience by certain victim-experts; if not, I'll give you my analogy on here once I get a suitable window. I'll have to have a look at your rest tomorrow or so (these last 5 years I feel on-off increasingly like the bloody White Rabbit in Alice in Wonderland...oh, to be young and have loads of time again). Bar this bit: "Right now , i need some help , another translation, as i am also following other tarrot readings, I will listen to like 30 of them a day and its amazing how they are all saying the same thing. they are all telling me that i need to disconnect and to love myself. Now I know how to show love and feel love but how do I self love? I must say, my mind dropps to the gutter when I hear that phrase. But seriously, how do i do that when I need to fight these random bursts of anxiety?" Well, clever Tarot cards then because - yes, common advice on how to heal most effectively includes Dating Yourself (spoiling yourself but balanced with good self-care). Anyway, see athe very first line of this extract re victim intelligence: __________________________ https://www.goodtherapy.org/blog/blindsided-recovering-narcissistic-abuse-relationship-0607134 "People with narcissistic traits are known for targeting intelligent, self-sufficient, empathic individuals as partners. They tend to lack core identity (Brown, 2013), and need narcissistic supply to fill their empty psyches. Narcissistic supply comes mostly in the form of adulation, adoration, and attention, but any sort of feedback allows the individual with narcissistic qualities to feel alive (including negative attention). These individuals feel a sense of challenge in targeting highly successful, attractive individuals who may already be in other relationships and/or who express a sense of vulnerability (i.e. having grief or depression, or recently getting out of a relationship). Characteristics of the Relationship The literature on malignant narcissism is extensive, yet many are not informed about the dangers of being involved with someone whose character or actions tend toward narcissism. I find that clients who were entangled in relationships with such individuals have more healing to do from breaks in these relationships than if they had been in relationships with healthy individuals, because often these clients are manifesting symptoms of posttraumatic stress. Not only are they grieving the loss of the relationship, but they are also processing the unreality of a “fake relationship.” Furthermore, often psychological abuse (and sometimes physical and sexual abuse) has permeated the relationship. In order to heal, psychotherapy must focus on grief work and trauma recovery, in addition to understanding the elements of the toxic relationship, so that patterns are not repeated in the future. Once the initial honeymoon wears off, partners of people with narcissistic traits go from feeling high on a pedestal (much like being on cocaine) to feeling devalued, discarded, and figuratively knocked off the pedestal. Their partners have successfully seduced and hooked them into relationships. But suddenly, the individual with narcissism begins to reveal traits of lying, future-faking, and Dr. Jekyl /Mr. Hyde Personality. He or she may vanish for hours or days on end, or gaslight (confuses the reality of) a partner. This person becomes emotionally abusive and detaches from the partner, extracting narcissistic supply in the process. The partner, then, is dropped/discarded, coming to the sudden and shocking realization that the other, the partner to has narcissistic qualities, is not capable of true intimacy/love, and really exhibits a limited capacity for emotional connectedness/bonding (Brown, 2013). The partner who has exhibited narcissistic personality traits, who was once a knight in shining armor, is now a mere fantasy, because he or she acted through mind control and brainwashing (Brown, 2013). To Protect Yourself So how does one avoid encountering someone with narcissism? I would suggest being particularly cautious with the pacing of dating. If you’re using a dating website, exercise extreme caution when meeting up with a dating partner for the first several dates until you feel you know the individual (i.e. meet in a public place). If the dating partner attempts to rush the relationship, that is a red flag. An individual who respects your boundaries will work with you to slowly progress the relationship at a pace that is mutually agreed upon. Just because initially there is a highly seductive “zing” quality to the attraction does not mean that the dating partner is healthy. To protect yourself from someone who may end up behaving out of narcissism, it is best to allow the connection to unfold slowly and observe to see if actions and words are matching up. Sexual chemistry is not the same thing as healthy bonding and attachment. A healthy person will want to get to know your personality, dreams, and interests, and slowly evolve the relationship. An individual with narcissistic tendencies may also want to know all about you, but then may fake being your soul mate by rushing you into consenting to a relationship/marriage/cohabitation/business arrangement (Hotchkiss, 2010). If you have encountered an individual who seems to display these qualities, or are considering leaving a relationship with a similar person, it is in your best interests to get yourself out of the relationship as quickly as possible. People with narcissistic characteristics may be prone to causing harm by invading personal boundaries, lying about future possibilities in relationships, engaging in abuse, and exhibiting no empathy or remorse for emotional harm they have done." __________________________ And here are a few links on speeded-up post-fauxlationship healing that you should find both fascinating and very helpful: You MUST Know THIS to Heal from Narcissistic Abuse RICHARD GRANNON https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wgNMxe9mpY (Richard includes an explanation of why the Narc expects unconditional love - to answer your earlier question however-many posts back) __________________________ 3 keys to recover your confidence after narcissistic abuse Jay Reid https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdnSyFC8JEI __________________________ How does the Narcissist Cause Self-Hatred in Victims? Dr. Todd Grande https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=imz-cbK-j7E (He rightly calls Narc abuse "subtle but dangerous". He's not strictly correct about how Narcs go after those with low self-esteem because in actual fact, the more arrogant and superior and self-aggrandizing of their manipulation skills, the more likely they will get fed-up of easy prey and want/need a CHALLENGE. The RESULT is often lowered self-esteem. But unlike Narcs, we recover, then (as a result of our minds having been made to work and flex so hard), soar. You'll come out of this a much mentally stronger, more mature, cannier, wiser, etc., etc., bigger-hearted person than before. __________________________ But meantime, you do have to examine how you were primed for this so-called gf by having grown used to neglect at the hands of your parents. Because they're the ones that made your Comfort Zone that same igloo; https://eggshelltherapy.com/narcissistic-parent-abuse/#3_Dismissive_Narcissistic_Parent_Abuse_Making_you_feel_you_should_not_exist (3) Dismissive Narcissistic Parent Abuse: Making you feel you should not exist Narcissistic and dismissive parents are deeply fearful of intimacy. They have blocked their relational capacity and deep emotions to defend against the trauma of having abusive or neglectful parents themselves. They tend not to remember much or talk about their childhood and maintain only surface or distant relationships with people in their lives. In relationships, they may adopt a rigid ‘provider’ or ‘rescuer’ role. Rather than establishing a human-to-human, heart-to-heart connection, they relationally keep themselves in a ‘defensible’ but distant position. Even when they have become a parent, they remain distant and uninterested in their child. They also do not engage in ‘mirroring’ (when a parent reflects a child’s thoughts and feelings and helps them develop emotional regulation skills) that a young child needs from their parent. This can be very damaging to a child’s development on a psychological and even a neurological level. It could even be said that, unfortunately, these parents deal with their attachment fears and ambivalence about parenting by denying your existence. Due to their attachment fears, they do not want to genuinely connect with you, do not want to start caring about you, and fear that you would begin to ‘matter’ to them. They appear cold and emotionally unresponsive and are rarely interested in your activities or whereabouts. Even if you have lived together under the same roof for years, you feel they never know who you are, and vice versa. However, they may over-compensate by showering you with material gifts. They may also hire a nanny or helper to ‘outsource’ their parental role. It is worth noting that your dismissive and avoidant parent feels threatened by the prospect of being close to anyone, not just you. Through no fault of yours, they punish you for making them want to attach. Their way of dealing with life is to tell themselves that relationships are not necessary and that they do not need other people. However, these strategies of distancing and self-denial sometimes do not work. When someone is warm and generous to them, or when they feel themselves beginning to attach to another, they are overwhelmed by feelings they normally try to block off. Therefore, your warm and loving qualities as a highly sensitive child feel like a threat to them. Of course, it is not your fault that you wanted to bond with your parents, but if they feel moved by you or if your love or your approaching them evokes tender emotions in them, they would have to push you away to preserve their sense of security. Closeness creates such a threat to them that they may even disappear from home for a few days to deal with it. Are you in regular contact with your parents, btw?

Are you on any anti-anxiety meds yet? If you don't like taking pills, google 'foods that are good for anxiety'. Dark choc is included, you'll probably be pleased to hear. Also just ONE glass of Red Wine when it gets too bad will lower anxiety, but if you go over, make it worse. Also, focing yourself to yawn (which should set you off for-real) is great for releasing that tension behind your diagphram. Take multi-vits plus a B complex (B6 and B12 for post-abuse, especially if your hair's thinned because of it). And up your oily fish intake. And don't worry, it's a waste of energy. You're just on a path. Just one foot in front of the other and you'll be feeling better before you know it. DON'T DATE TOO SOON or the other sharks will - WILL - smell your blood in the water. See online about dating after the Narc.

PS: I know your Narc was a "Frosty The Snowman/woman type" so within the above extracts, you'll have to allow for that exception. There are plenty of articles online about the cold, neglectful types, though.

By the way, how did the break-up talk go? How did she react?

Oh - I've just caught up properly and... you HAVEN'T ended it yet?? Why, if you know at the very least there's no spark nor ever was? PS: I'm not listening to your 'typical victim-scripted' attempts to retain an illusory sense of own control by finding things to blame yourself for, as if you still believe you'd had any power to correct them during that whole time. The victim having Zero Power means Zero Responsibility because - long-established and accepted psych fact - the two skills are conjoined and inseparable twins. Same as a kid getting a rabbit as a pet has power over that animal, but ain't gonna have power for very long if he doesn't care for him (and his hutch) properly, daily, i.e. RESPONSIBLY. A normal-healthy woman would have been on your case VERY soon in to the relationship if you hadn't been reciprocating and she'd actually WANTED that (is that a "duuh"?). I did ask you whether she could be majorly banked-up with unexpressed/censored Resentment, though. But you failed to answer that one. HOWEVER (GIANT KLAXON), you then reported how she reacted to and dealt with your (in context) massive, romantic gesture with her car - including, her drawing-out her *distraction* tactic (in the form of playing dumb during needless, and needlessly long, talks) which sounded uncannily like her attempt to keep you away from what had been anticipated and was *still* expected of her: her showing she was as pleased-as-punch as any woman in-love would be, followed by a massive hug and snog (maybe etcetera), whereupon, when added to the NPD sympatomatic pile, it became a case of, she can't NOT be one. (And PS: having her image tied that closely to her car? How do hearts resemble male genitals anyway? ANYONE can paint a heart.) My recommendation, if you insist she's fine at arm's length as a friend (which could be the case - Avoidant into Dismissive Attachment style only at closer quarters), is to agree a realistic relationship Mourning Period (6 months minimum) and specific date for a friendship reunion meeting. However, check out any of all of these articles first, and let me know what you think: _______________________________________ https://www.parentingforbrain.com/avoidant-attachment/ "Key Point Avoidant attachment develops when infants consistently have unmet needs, leading them to distrust their caregiver’s support. Avoidant people maintain distance in relationships, even with spouses, believing in their self-reliance. Accepting and committing to change is crucial in addressing avoidant attachment issues." Often, people who have spouses with avoidant attachment styles feel as though they are the only ones invested in the relationship. While they love their partners, they can’t help but feel that their relationship is one-sided. They are the only ones putting in any effort. To better understand avoidant attachment style, let’s take a closer look at the attachment theory. The attachment theory explains how emotional attachment between infants and their primary caregivers affects the child’s development, behavior, and relationships... _______________________________________ https://www.attachmentproject.com/blog/avoidant-attachment-style/ Referred to as anxious-avoidant in childhood, the avoidant-dismissive attachment style is one of the three insecure adult attachment styles identified in psychological literature. Parents who are strict and emotionally distant, do not tolerate the expression of feelings, and expect their child to be independent and tough might raise children with an avoidant attachment style. As adults, these children appear confident and self-sufficient. They do not tolerate emotional or physical intimacy and might not be able to build healthy relationships. What’s more, in the workplace, they are often seen as the independent, ‘lone wolf’. It is, however, possible for these individuals to change and develop a secure attachment style. How you form relationships as an adult depends on your childhood Have you ever wondered why some people do not want to depend on or truly connect with anyone, even when in a relationship? Most of us aim to build strong relationships throughout our lives. We are ‘hungry’ for love and affection. Why? Because emotional intimacy has many advantages. Namely, we are able to share our thoughts and feelings openly, we receive support and reassurance, we feel heard, appreciated, valued, and consequently, we feel calm and safe. Emotional closeness can provide us with a feeling of stability – we are not going through life alone; we have someone to rely on. If we feel safe and valued by others, we are also able to maintain a higher self-esteem and a positive outlook on life. If you are someone that needs to have close relationships and wants to rely on others (and have others rely on you), you have probably wondered why some people lack these basic human desires. How do they even make it work? The truth is, this is most often not a conscious choice. The way we form relationships as adults has a lot to do with the way we formed our first social bonds as children with our caregivers. Attachment theory is well-known and researched in the field of Psychology. Psychiatrist and psychoanalyst John Bowlby and his attachment theory shed light on and explain this phenomenon. Four adult attachment styles were categorized based on his theory: ... _______________________________________ https://adultattachmenthealing.com/anxious-avoidant-dismissing/ How you form relationships as an adult depends on your childhood Have you ever wondered why some people do not want to depend on or truly connect with anyone, even when in a relationship? Most of us aim to build strong relationships throughout our lives. We are ‘hungry’ for love and affection. Why? Because emotional intimacy has many advantages. Namely, we are able to share our thoughts and feelings openly, we receive support and reassurance, we feel heard, appreciated, valued, and consequently, we feel calm and safe. Emotional closeness can provide us with a feeling of stability – we are not going through life alone; we have someone to rely on. If we feel safe and valued by others, we are also able to maintain a higher self-esteem and a positive outlook on life. If you are someone that needs to have close relationships and wants to rely on others (and have others rely on you), you have probably wondered why some people lack these basic human desires. How do they even make it work? The truth is, this is most often not a conscious choice. The way we form relationships as adults has a lot to do with the way we formed our first social bonds as children with our caregivers. How do children develop an anxious-avoidant attachment style? The development of the anxious/avoidant attachment style has much to do with the emotional availability of their caregivers. The caregivers do not necessarily neglect the child in general; they are present. Nevertheless, they tend to avoid the display of emotion and intimacy and are often misattuned to the child’s emotional needs. Such caregivers are reserved and seem to back off when the child reaches out for support, reassurance and affection. The caregivers are likely to become more distant as the situation gets more emotionally dense. They might become overwhelmed and want to get out. This is when their unavailability would be most evident. The child expresses a need for closeness, but instead of receiving it, they perceive that the door is shut in their face. Parents whose children become avoidant might not only avoid expressing their own feelings. They might also disapprove of and not tolerate any notable display of emotions from their children, regardless of whether it is negative (sadness / fear) or positive (excitement / joy). When such display of emotions occurs, caregivers can become angry and try to disrupt the child’s behavior by telling the child to toughen up. The parent expects the young child to behave independent, serious, and reserved. _______________________________________ However, the "prod-wrongfoot-prod-wrongfoot" night doesn't fit. Avoidant is as does. That was (in role context) antagonistic and (in ongoing longerm situation context) sadistic. But you were/still are(?) there the entire time so - let me know. :)

(Oops, I pasted the same block twice in those last 2 - ignore, just click the attachment)

since we are calling it out , u gotta be a chick, I can sense the feminine undertones in you. Now curosity does perk my interest in the accuracy of my intuition. but it dont really matter. A thumper is when you rub a dogs belly and his leg kicks, we are not talking about the third leg here, I am talking about the pull on my heart, where it skips a beat or changes its rythm when it feels that warmth. milk has no family connection, it is a science fact i picked up. It has enzymes that helps you relax and slows your brain down enough to get to sleep, or somthing like that. It is not coping mech for me, just a sleep aid. sorry, no drugs or vitamines for me pls, Also I have stopped smoking weed for a month or 2 now aswell. ya, it was Buddha , now that I am awake I am having problems finding myself and my joys in the real world. YA, lets leave startrek in the past, mind and heart are aligned now. Also im headstrong, i dont trust doctors and only use them when i need a perscription or somthing. I wouldnt mind runnin around in a toga, but i draw the line if they go jock-less. Er - what, and what? we cannot fight fire with fire or it will spread and burn ourselves too. this is an absolute for me, sorry, LOVE conquers all, it is essential for my awakening and my ability to fly. Why, if you know at the very least there's no spark nor ever was? Like I was saying, this is the first time there has been stability, reliablility and loyalty in a relationship, its not abusive, its just null, which is what i was talking about in the begining, shes a great girl but just not for me, its just not there, but i realise now that regardless, i need to move on. On a different note I also find it interesting about what you are saying about narcs. espically where you elaborate about where it stems from. And i'd just like to highlight that despite the fact they grew up in a bad situation and dont know better, doesnt mean that they are people underneith.. so my next question is that "how would I as a third party(such as a phsychologist or such) help a person like this to recover and heal from their wounds and realsie that the world isn't such a bad place??

Well, I'm sorry to hear you're stuck in this difficult place. It sounds like you've got an amazing situation, and it definitely ain't something to take lightly. What you need to do is sit down, take some time to breathe and think it through. Don't be in such a rush to make a decision - listen to your heart, look at the facts, and do what feels right for you. Good luck!

Thanks doc, I have for longer than i can remember, it has been tough, for years I have thought i should fake it till i make it and should appricate all i have, such a great girl but kirk is an urk i have been fighting for a long long time, i dont think i want a lobotomy, breathing hasnt helped, thinking hasnt helped, time hasnt helped, the affair book reinforced what i dont want and what we dont have, I need to listen to my heart not change it, I cannot rekindle what was never there, all I can do is set her free and hope she can find someone who can appricate her better and that she appricate what we had but realise that there is better for her out there, and move on to forget about me and not spend her future wallowing and regretting, in what could be identified as narc behavior but is really just a trauma and lack of self love. so the countdown is on, in the mean time i need to find ways to get out to keep things smooth, espically on weekends, not simple for a loner old dog like me, and bar life is dead appearently since covid, so what do people do now adays on friday night? ps question in previous post still applies...