I ghosted my best friends and think I regret it?

Hey everyone, I’m a new member who could use some perspective on a situation that’s bothering me. In January this year I ghosted my two best friends, and I think I regret it but don’t really know how to proceed (I’ll call them Marcus and Angie).This isn’t the first time we’ve stopped talking; back around June of last year we got into a blowout fight when one of our 17 y/o friends got into a relationship with a guy who I think was 18 (can’t remember). Marcus cut her out of everything after this came out, insisting she was manipulative and even evil, and when I told him I thought that was a bad decision, he turned on me too. The details after this are probably irrelevant (I can share more if it would help), but needless to say I couldn’t stomach the cruelty and left. A few days later I sent him some very hurt and angry messages trying to make him understand me or at least get him to respond, but he never was one for taking initiative, so of course they went unanswered. Angie tried to get me to come back, but with her being on the sidelines I wasn’t about to accept an apology or invitation to talk on someone else’s behalf, especially if the other person wasn’t actually sorry or interested in a conversation. We just all stopped talking. Since I was preparing for serious surgery in November last year, I decided to be the bigger man and reach out that October. I was worried about Angie, as she’s the youngest and lives with controlling parents who won’t let her express herself, and at the very least I didn’t want what was a very important friendship left in such a sad state if the worst happened. We all patched things up and picked up where we left off, not really discussing the “breakup” ever again, at least not seriously. But after a few months the cracks started to show again. I was reminded of their very narrow-minded, black-and-white view of the world. Highlights include: sex toys are immoral and “degenerate”, all use of marijuana, including medical, is bad, and using birth control outside of long-term relationships means you’re, again, a “degenerate” or slut… yeah. Yikes. While these were extremely grating to me, especially because they wouldn’t accept any alternative opinion or suggestions that they were too young and sheltered to make these judgments, I was mostly willing to just ignore and stay on topics we could agree on. As the oldest, I wanted to be a good example, and after all, opinions are like a**holes, you know? I always got the feeling that their anger was misdirected and maybe they’d grow out of it once they actually had to get a job or have a real talk with a human being they aren’t related to or met in school or games or something. It wasn’t like these bad opinions were their only ideas. They were sensitive and bright, and I really just wanted to see more of that from them instead of all this anger. But Marcus started hanging out more and more with his racist bigot friends. He wouldn’t admit that they were, but I’d heard the way they talked and didn’t like it one bit. And Angie started bringing around an old friend we’d agreed not to talk to after some nasty behavior towards me and towards Angie while the two of them were involved with each other. I don’t know the details of their fling; everyone kept pretty quiet but the ones who did know implied to me that it was really bad. Both Marcus and Angie did these things without talking to me first, and combined with their hypocrisy, their new hobbies that involved me less and less, and rejecting or ignoring my ideas for things to do together, I just felt stupid and angry and abandoned. So I ghosted. Do I think that was the right way to handle it? No, not really. If I could go back and do it again I think I would’ve just said I felt confused by their behavior and ignored and that I just wanted my friends to treat me like a friend instead of someone they just tolerate. But I wonder if they’d even have listened? The last two communications I received from either of them came from Angie, the first wishing me a happy birthday and the second asking me if I was still alive. I ignored both of them. In the moment, the first one felt like a slap in the face after the long chain of messages I sent her that she ignored, and the second one felt more like an obligation than a real question. Marcus has never sent me anything, which to me, sends a much louder message. It’s hard enough to maintain a friendship with someone who takes you for granted and refuses to initiate when you don’t have other issues like this in the way. It just feels like I didn’t matter at all. I’ve been giving all this a lot of thought lately now that I’m cleared to work again and can get out of the house. I don’t exactly have any real friends to hang out with now, and I’ll be honest, I’m feeling a little lonely. I have plenty to focus on that keeps me going, but I miss having people around who care. That’s where I start to waver; I must’ve reopened our chat a million times to check on them, but every time I want to say something, I either lose my nerve or remember all these burning problems and huff off. I can’t tell if it’s just loneliness making me want to reach out when I should trust the first choice here, or if I really should try again. If you asked me a from a little while ago I’d probably tell you I regret it and want another chance, but after two weeks of long nights alone at my job, I’ve started to shift back to my original stance. No matter what I can’t seem to stay on a single course with this. Is going back the right move, at least to apologize? Or do I just need to accept that I effed up, grieve it, learn, and move on? I know I need friends, but from where I’m standing it’s tough to tell if they’re worth the third chance. I know this is a long read, so please know that I appreciate the time and am grateful. Thank you!!

Sorry for the long wait! I or someone else will be with you shortly. Feel free to introduce yourself and have a chat with to the other two peeps in the queue with you, and comment on one another's situations, as that's how this works. :) (PS: Long? Haha - no? That wouldn't even fill one A4 sheet!) (Continue on, longer, if you want?)

Righto, here we go (and thanks again, we REALLY appreciate it - and please don't stop :))... "Hey everyone, I’m a new member who could use some perspective on a situation that’s bothering me." Warmth and friendliness noted! Are you a 'bouncy' type? You SOUND bouncy...? "In January this year I ghosted my two best friends," Okay. Let's find out why... It's obvious you didn't do it *lightly*. "and I think I regret it but don’t really know how to proceed (I’ll call them Marcus and Angie)." Well, I hope they're not narcs or they'll end up Barkus and Mangie. "This isn’t the first time we’ve stopped talking;" (Spoke too soon) (TICK!) "back around June of last year we got into a blowout fight when one of our 17 y/o" OH, 17. Too young to "be" a narcissistic but just naturally Teen Narc-like (selfish, unaware,...too much going on at one time, not listening to themselves, equalling clumsy and taking moodies out on, bit slow with learning boundaries, etc., etc...). "(got into a blowout fight when one of our 17 y/o) friends got into a relationship with a guy who I think was 18 (can’t remember)." Then it's because you mind knows it's not important. Hang on a cotton pickin' minute - are you telling me you're only 17? After that 'mature woman' response to HelloMeAgain????? WTF? Or do I need to read ahead more? "Marcus cut her out of everything after this came out," Why? " insisting she was manipulative and even evil," Why - how - for what purpose? " and when I told him I thought that was a bad decision," Oh, DID you indeedie. Got your number. You're about - ummmmmmmm...just 're-playing' your post to HMA...... 42?...thereabouts? ...and naturally have to act like the 'adult in the room' when the kidz get SHHHCHEW-PID. Are you an Only child?...and/or with Older parents?? Or, growing-up, did you experience a reversal of roles with your mum and/or dad? Thirty-eight at LEAST... Bit gobsmacked... I'll shut-up and find out!... (Eff me, though - you GenZs are like Frankenstein...But in a GOOD way. SO advanced!) "he turned on me too. The details after this are probably irrelevant (I can share more if it would help)," YES, IT WOULD - definitely. So I'll pause here and GNNNNNN!...resist the urge to find out how you're a middle-aged grown-up in a kid's body (aaagh)... TO BE CONTINUED..... PS: What's your job - Striptease? (laughs at own joke) ____________________________________________ but needless to say I couldn’t stomach the cruelty and left. A few days later I sent him some very hurt and angry messages trying to make him understand me or at least get him to respond, but he never was one for taking initiative, so of course they went unanswered. Angie tried to get me to come back, but with her being on the sidelines I wasn’t about to accept an apology or invitation to talk on someone else’s behalf, especially if the other person wasn’t actually sorry or interested in a conversation. We just all stopped talking. Since I was preparing for serious surgery in November last year, I decided to be the bigger man and reach out that October. I was worried about Angie, as she’s the youngest and lives with controlling parents who won’t let her express herself, and at the very least I didn’t want what was a very important friendship left in such a sad state if the worst happened. We all patched things up and picked up where we left off, not really discussing the “breakup” ever again, at least not seriously. But after a few months the cracks started to show again. I was reminded of their very narrow-minded, black-and-white view of the world. Highlights include: sex toys are immoral and “degenerate”, all use of marijuana, including medical, is bad, and using birth control outside of long-term relationships means you’re, again, a “degenerate” or slut… yeah. Yikes. While these were extremely grating to me, especially because they wouldn’t accept any alternative opinion or suggestions that they were too young and sheltered to make these judgments, I was mostly willing to just ignore and stay on topics we could agree on. As the oldest, I wanted to be a good example, and after all, opinions are like a**holes, you know? I always got the feeling that their anger was misdirected and maybe they’d grow out of it once they actually had to get a job or have a real talk with a human being they aren’t related to or met in school or games or something. It wasn’t like these bad opinions were their only ideas. They were sensitive and bright, and I really just wanted to see more of that from them instead of all this anger. But Marcus started hanging out more and more with his racist bigot friends. He wouldn’t admit that they were, but I’d heard the way they talked and didn’t like it one bit. And Angie started bringing around an old friend we’d agreed not to talk to after some nasty behavior towards me and towards Angie while the two of them were involved with each other. I don’t know the details of their fling; everyone kept pretty quiet but the ones who did know implied to me that it was really bad. Both Marcus and Angie did these things without talking to me first, and combined with their hypocrisy, their new hobbies that involved me less and less, and rejecting or ignoring my ideas for things to do together, I just felt stupid and angry and abandoned. So I ghosted. Do I think that was the right way to handle it? No, not really. If I could go back and do it again I think I would’ve just said I felt confused by their behavior and ignored and that I just wanted my friends to treat me like a friend instead of someone they just tolerate. But I wonder if they’d even have listened? The last two communications I received from either of them came from Angie, the first wishing me a happy birthday and the second asking me if I was still alive. I ignored both of them. In the moment, the first one felt like a slap in the face after the long chain of messages I sent her that she ignored, and the second one felt more like an obligation than a real question. Marcus has never sent me anything, which to me, sends a much louder message. It’s hard enough to maintain a friendship with someone who takes you for granted and refuses to initiate when you don’t have other issues like this in the way. It just feels like I didn’t matter at all. I’ve been giving all this a lot of thought lately now that I’m cleared to work again and can get out of the house. I don’t exactly have any real friends to hang out with now, and I’ll be honest, I’m feeling a little lonely. I have plenty to focus on that keeps me going, but I miss having people around who care. That’s where I start to waver; I must’ve reopened our chat a million times to check on them, but every time I want to say something, I either lose my nerve or remember all these burning problems and huff off. I can’t tell if it’s just loneliness making me want to reach out when I should trust the first choice here, or if I really should try again. If you asked me a from a little while ago I’d probably tell you I regret it and want another chance, but after two weeks of long nights alone at my job, I’ve started to shift back to my original stance. No matter what I can’t seem to stay on a single course with this. Is going back the right move, at least to apologize? Or do I just need to accept that I effed up, grieve it, learn, and move on? I know I need friends, but from where I’m standing it’s tough to tell if they’re worth the third chance. I know this is a long read, so please know that I appreciate the time and am grateful. Thank you!!"

Sod it - can't do it. Don't wanna (haha) - too gripped!... Maybe I don't even need the Whys, just the behavioural and attitudinal patterns... Back in I paste... "but needless to say I couldn’t stomach the cruelty and left." Still tell me why (yup) Barkus thought it was any of his business and why he insists she's evil. But since you're the adult in their room - I'll take your word for it. It was unwarranted, unjust, a load of ollocks, basically, and CRUEL. You stomach the cruelty. ...bring your forehead closer?...little bit closer?.... "THLUP!". That's a Gold Star on your 'huge', brainy forehead. :) EMPATH-RESCURER/SOCIAL HERO! WELCOME! "A few days later I sent him some very hurt and angry messages trying to make him understand me or at least get him to respond, but he never was one for taking initiative," Whereas, you're a dynamic, pro-active, go-getter/doer/fixer and a very successful one. NORMALLY. "so of course they went unanswered." Bloody Nora. 'Of course'. High eQ including extrapo-lapo-LAPO-lation, very noted! (What are you doing, hanging-out with KIDS?) "Angie tried to get me to come back, but with her being on the sidelines I wasn’t about to accept an apology or invitation to talk on someone else’s behalf," Barkus has long-trained Angie into being his lackey, doing his dirty work FOR him, including cleaning up the messes he causes AS IMPACT HER ALONGSIDE against her wishes, and generally HAVING to be the outside-relations Peace Keeper - OR additionally, Angie's one of those whom just helps herself, regardless - noted...but especially when the culprit pretends he CAN'T fix, when it's, don't wanna. (Which?/Bit of both?) How long have those two been together - because that can be an "Isolating the Victim" tactic, that can? I'm already thinking the problematic element here is, Barkus. Fire-Starter. (I mean, obviously the victim didn't even bat-back with anything or not only would you have said, but, you wouldn't have had to defend her FOR her in the first place.) Probably why I haven't called Angie, Mangie. (Also loving your high standards, self-respect, and insistence on justice for all, btw.) "especially if the other person wasn’t actually sorry or interested in a conversation. We just all stopped talking." Understandably. ...Aim, Fire, Bullseye! to Barkus, then. But then, Angie's gotta see it for herself. Don't tell me.... this "evil" girl kept Angie stabilized, supported, fed-back to, confident...kept her grounded and either was or would have become a problem for Barkus. Yeh? "Since I was preparing for serious surgery in November last year," Ooh, what did you have? "I decided to be the bigger man and reach out that October. I was worried about Angie" THERE we go. :) ("Dah-da-da-daaah...is it a bird, is it a plane?...") ", as she’s the youngest and lives with controlling parents who won’t let her express herself, and at the very least I didn’t want what was a very important friendship left in such a sad state if the worst happened. We all patched things up and picked up where we left off, not really discussing the “breakup” ever again, at least not seriously." Self-Sacrifice (need to know/for closure self-denied) noted! (What career are you headed for, out of interest. Police Detective?) (Do!) " But after a few months the cracks started to show again." YUP. EARWIGO... (gas mask on...) "I was reminded of their very narrow-minded, black-and-white view of the world." (TICK!) "Highlights include: sex toys are immoral and “degenerate”," (Depends how and why the're used, yaawn...) "all use of marijuana, including medical, is bad," (HAHA!) (PS if ever they call you the crazy one, ensure to retort: Prove it - write me a prescription!) "and using birth control outside of long-term relationships means you’re, again, a “degenerate” or slut… yeah." I say, Maxmillian,... Aren't your friends ab-so-LUTELY de-LIGHT-ful! (And I REALLY fancy Barkus) (smirk) ("be still, my beating heart"). He's an OVERT, then. But Covert with it (the end aim/agenda: Isolate Angie by alienating her from the intelligently insightful types). "Yikes." YEAH! "While these were extremely grating to me, especially because they wouldn’t accept any alternative opinion or suggestions that they were too young and sheltered to make these judgments," Well, that's WHY they spout this self-righteous-without-a-cause ollocks. To try to cover UP the fact. (Have you tried taking the piss yet (and making Angie laugh)?) "I was mostly willing to just ignore and stay on topics we could agree on." What a lot of effort. But, yeah... "As the oldest, I wanted to be a good example," Oh, you ARE the eldest! Not late Thirties/middle-aged, though (it IS a compliment btw). "and after all, opinions are like a**holes, you know?" Do I know. HAHAHAHAHAHA, just a bit. :D I think we all, here, know. "I always got the feeling that their anger was misdirected and maybe they’d grow out of it once they actually had to get a job or have a real talk with a human being they aren’t related to or met in school or games or something." AH-HAH! YOU'VE GROWN UP - THEY HAVEN'T. They're still in the playground. CASE CLOSED (but issue still ongoing).... Sorry to be a pain but I need to break off for a sec (loo, coffee, raid the fridge a bit)... TO BE CONTINUED....

* Parte Trois * "It wasn’t like these bad opinions were their only ideas." Yeah, we know how they go. "They were sensitive and bright, and I really just wanted to see more of that from them instead of all this anger." Sad, isn't it. "But Marcus ((-sic) (hahaha!)) started hanging out more and more with his racist bigot friends." Oh, god. Found his posse. " He wouldn’t admit that they were, but I’d heard the way they talked and didn’t like it one bit." Yeah, but *Barkus* does. He looks a bit more normal stood next to them. Is he trying to bring (slide) them into Angie's world i.e. into the relationship as their new social circle? "And Angie started bringing around an old friend we’d agreed not to talk to after some nasty behavior towards me and towards Angie while the two of them were involved with each other." Oh dear. 'Mangie' it is. (No loyalty, no friend-protectiveness (just darling Barkus), no principles, concerned only with popularity.....yawn-yawn-yawn.) "I don’t know the details of their fling; everyone kept pretty quiet but the ones who did know implied to me that it was really bad." Fling?! He's a bloke, then? An Ex? TRIANGULATION ALERT!!! Mangie and Barkus are both fledgling Narcs but Barkus is worst (narc-sociopath). It's NOT their sheltered upbringing that's to blame. The fact their parents SEQUESTERED them is a clue. It's called Enmeshment and systematic Brainwashing. Mini Narcs! (except for the straight-seeing, rebel child). Mangie's more subtle...it's more in her actions and LACK of (dutiful) actions. Barkus makes Mangie look convincingly NORMAL. Those two will be Tweedledee and Tweedledum. DON'T GET INVOLVED - LEAVE THEM TO IT. It'll only end in tears. But anyway... " Both Marcus and Angie did these things without talking to me first," Yeeaah, to show you you're not important (you bloody are), not worth considering. A 'partner' without a vote. You're too clever, too wise, too healthy for them! End Of. "and combined with their hypocrisy," GROSS Hypocrisy, I'll bet. " their new hobbies that involved me less and less, and rejecting or ignoring my ideas for things to do together, I just felt stupid and angry and abandoned. So I ghosted." GOOD! "Do I think that was the right way to handle it? No, not really." WRONG! YES, really! " If I could go back and do it again I think I would’ve just said I felt confused by their behavior and ignored and that I just wanted my friends to treat me like a friend instead of someone they just tolerate." They don't DO friends. Don't have the un-broken/working wiring for it. They're not interested in friendship. "But I wonder if they’d even have listened?" NO. They don't do listening (except to the data that could be used in a manipulation tack/campaign). "The last two communications I received from either of them came from Angie, the first wishing me a happy birthday and the second asking me if I was still alive. I ignored both of them." "THLUP!" "In the moment, the first one felt like a slap in the face after the long chain of messages I sent her that she ignored, and the second one felt more like an obligation than a real question." (TICK! and TICK!) "Marcus has never sent me anything, which to me, sends a much louder message." Undeniable one, yup. Mangie will be texting you in secret. Not because she's afraid of what he'll say/do. But, again, because she's using him as her Bad Cop (she's a Covert). It's like - she's fat, he's obese = stood together, she looks more normal weight and yet perversely, stood next to her, HE looks LESS fat. Common stuff. " It’s hard enough to maintain a friendship with someone who takes you for granted and refuses to initiate when you don’t have other issues like this in the way. It just feels like I didn’t matter at all." No, the problem is you DO matter and talk sense and all of that. Which - stood against you, now - makes them look LIKE THE MALIGNANT, BROKEN *PLAYGROUND-AGED KIDS* THEY STILL ARE. You show them up, mate. To themselves. And because you're outspoken ("thlup!"), other people could become aware of what they are, too. YOU HAFF TDO GO, YA VULL?! "I’ve been giving all this a lot of thought lately now that I’m cleared to work again and can get out of the house." GOOD, you can make new friends and forget them! ("For-get yooou, and your poo, that be-longs in the loo (etc)...except your dog, you can aaall geeet loo-oo-oooost!") Your too young for kids just yet. "I don’t exactly have any real friends to hang out with now, and I’ll be honest, I’m feeling a little lonely." AWW. Yeah. That's how it goes for a bit. You can definitely chat to me and everyone here, though. And DEFINITELY-DEFINITELY keep producing posts like that! "I have plenty to focus on that keeps me going," OH - hahaha (damn). "but I miss having people around who care. That’s where I start to waver; I must’ve reopened our chat a million times to check on them, but every time I want to say something, I either lose my nerve or remember all these burning problems and huff off. I can’t tell if it’s just loneliness making me want to reach out when I should trust the first choice here, or if I really should try again. If you asked me a from a little while ago I’d probably tell you I regret it and want another chance, but after two weeks of long nights alone at my job, I’ve started to shift back to my original stance. No matter what I can’t seem to stay on a single course with this. Is going back the right move, at least to apologize? Or do I just need to accept that I effed up, grieve it, learn, and move on? I know I need friends, but from where I’m standing it’s tough to tell if they’re worth the third chance." Yes! - all normal-healthy! So you need a hand because this page is that bit too heavy to turn! That's why we're here. :) And coming to the right place to get it says, your feet aren't undecided AT ALL, EC-TUALLY. So there, haha. "I know this is a long read, so please know that I appreciate the time and am grateful. Thank you!!"" No, not long. Very jam-packed (got a wee, but about-to-expand (ugh! - run!) nest there)... - but also bloody easy and enjoyable (- wrong word, you know what I mean) to read. GAGGING to know what your job is?!

And - just to explain - because Barkus is expanding, Mangie can afford to expand WITH him. Get it? The wee Narcs are morphing into ones in adult bodies with access to the adult world (where no kids should dabble, let alone evil spoilt-baby-cold-hearted, chavvy-sociopathy ones) (Gremlins...Truth is water).

Share more anyway...just so's we can all go, UUUGH, some more. :D

(You'll find them funny, too, soon enough, don't you worry.) PS: Notice at first I thought you had to be a (blokey type of) woman? Such a never-before amount of eQ, for me, see. (rhymes unintentional) I'm starting to think I was born ahead of my time and that, all along, I've been an 'early' Gen Zee. (Serious. Ly.) Cor. GO GETT'EM, NATURAL-BORN, NARC-SLAYING TIGERS!

Hello Soulmate!! Thanks for your response, I really appreciated the fun in it as I needed a laugh this evening!! To clarify some things, I am a dude (but you can probably tell English was my best subject in school lol) in my twenties so you’re right about me being gen z and having bad parents, haha. Part of what I mentioned in that other post about needing to take the time to think was partially a crisis of my own manliness. I eventually decided that I had much bigger fish to fry than other people thinking I was less of a man for caring about other people or thinking about my actions, and decided that I knew who I was and what I’m capable of. And if anyone doubts that, they can wait and see for themselves when the time comes. The friends in question were both about 16 (Angie) and 19 (Marcus) at the time, and both of them had birthdays not too long ago if my calendar's right. They knew each other casually for a while I reckon, but I had about an equal amount of things in common with both of them and brought them around each other. They told me once that I was like the glue holding us all together where they didn’t have much in common, which is a little funny now, in a sad way. They’re still hanging out on the reg I as far as I know, and I haven’t seen them since January. Hindsight isn’t always 20/20 but it is kind of a jerk. And honestly your questions about my age even before I read your other follow-ups got me thinking about why I kept choosing to spend time with people younger than me. I guess I feel kind of stuck? Like, I don’t feel like I have a lot in common with most people my age. Most of my acquaintances tell me I’m “super mature” and “so grown up!1!1!” But I also don’t really feel like I can truly connect with my married 35+y/o coworkers because I’m still so young. In spite of any maturity I might have or lack, I can’t exactly bridge an experience gap until I get to it, you know? Maybe I was drawn in by their youth and myriad problems that I could actually speak to. I guess I like to feel helpful, for all that it really mattered. But back to the stuff you actually asked about (first incident details) I had taken a break from talking to everyone when my car broke down. I was feeling overwhelmed and just kind of shut down for a week while I focused on that and just taking care of myself for a while. There’s a pattern here I can recognize of me just quietly popping off without telling anyone (insert joke about neglectful parents here), but to be fair it was only a week. I can see that might be a long time to not explain myself, but it wasn’t like I had given any indication it was out of anger or anything, at least not to my mind, and the stress had nothing to do with them. When I’d gotten my problems off my plate, I sent them both messages containing basically this paragraph, give or take some self-awareness. Angie found me first and was surprised to see me, warning that after three days Marcus concluded I’d abandoned him. I was stunned that he’d decided they meant so little to me, and especially without so much as even reaching out while I was away. Until she told me that I really didn’t think he’d even noticed I was away. Kind of ironic in retrospect, considering that I did bail like that later. Anyway, at some point he’d reopened (I’ll get to that but goddamn am I realizing there was a lot of kid drama here) a group chat to deal with the other friend in the relationship he disapproved of. Like I said, I can’t remember what the age difference was, but something smelled bad to me. I decided to sleep on it and figure out what all the fuss was about the next day. When I got a chance to ask what was happening, he told me that [we’ll call her] Daisy was dating a guy she met who was too old for her and that made her the villain in this. When I expressed my confusion of how someone being groomed could ever be the bad guy, he brushed it off, insisting she was being manipulative. How, I don’t know. He never really answered that. I suspect he was jealous of how much people liked her, but whatever. I really can’t say. Angie just sort of laughed it off, but it all felt wrong. So I went behind his back to ask Daisy for her side. I have no idea if this was a betrayal or anything, but I didn’t feel like I was getting the whole truth. To be honest, I actually kind of hated Daisy a little before this. She was his old friend (maybe his ex??? no one would tell me), and she kind of irritated me a little when she came around, but never actually did anything wrong. The kicker was that he knew I didn’t like her. I could’ve just taken him at his word and felt justified in being annoyed with her, but even with that, knowing no one would even talk to her was just too cruel. Like I said, she never did anything; she was sweet, maybe a little too much for my taste, but still, awful stuff. When I reached out she was relieved and kind of seemed desperate. Apparently Marc had convinced all their common friends to avoid her, and she showed me texts from him asking her if she was on birth control and demanding she break up with her bf that I’m pretty sure he introduced her to…. more drama lol. Thinking back on this it’s really hot gossip, isn’t it? With all this in hand, I tried to press him a little more on what he thought he was doing. If my friends thought I’d done something terrible, I’d be disappointed if they didn’t say something to me, and I thought he’d appreciate that kind of honesty from me. I don’t know why. He accused me of talking to her behind his back, which was true, but I wasn’t doing it to stir up the hornets’ nest. I was doing it for me. I didn’t want to call someone who would treat a person this way my friend, and I guess I thought that I could make up for not being there when it all went down and get him to see it another way now, before it was too late. Or maybe I was just looking for a way out that didn’t feel like surrender. Either way, I asked him: if he couldn’t trust Daisy, someone he’d known way longer than me, then what was I supposed to expect? He then brought up my disappearance, and I can understand that I suppose, even if I felt like it was a bit of an overreaction. I told him the truth, that yeah, I could agree that was kind of sucky of me, but I had stuff to do. And I asked him that if it really mattered, why couldn’t he be bothered to say anything? He didn’t answer, but said we should drop it and just shake hands instead of fighting. To me this was a silent ultimatum; fall in line, or get lost. It seemed pretty clear cut where I was standing. I remember some other things being said, but I can’t remember what. I just left. I did eventually send him those angry messages I’d mentioned expressing my deep disappointment in him and calling other decisions of his into question, and he never said anything, as seems to be the tagline for his part of story. Then the October thing happened. PS: I wish I got paid like strippers do lol!!! I’m working an actually decent clerk job for now believe it or not, at least until next year, when I’d like to try nursing school or paramedic training. Assuming I don’t go broke first LOL

Anyhoo... "Mangie will be texting you in secret. Not because she's afraid of what he'll say/do. But, again, because she's using him as her Bad Cop (she's a Covert). It's like - she's fat, he's obese = stood together, she looks more normal weight and yet perversely, stood next to her, HE looks LESS fat. Common stuff." ...to expound on this: I took a photo of a friend stood under a massive, massive oak tree. In the pic, it was impossible to tell - was that a titchy-tiny man stood up against a normal-sized tree, or a normal-sized man stood against a giant tree? Only a third frame-of-reference (this case, proportional) would have cleared that up. You're the third frame-of-reference that shows them up for what they ACTUALLY are. BOTH of them. ___________________________________________ https://www.verywellmind.com/understanding-the-covert-narcissist-4584587 (Extract) "Overt vs. Covert Narcissists Covert narcissists are only different from overt (more obvious) narcissists in that they tend to be more introverted. The overt narcissist is easily identified because they tend to be loud, arrogant, insensitive to the needs of others, and always thirsty for compliments.1 Their behaviors can be easily observed by others and tend to show up as "big" in a room. Overt narcissists demonstrate more extroverted behaviors in their interactions with others. Researcher and author Craig Malkin, PhD, suggests that the term "covert" can be misleading. In his work, he states that the term covert is often used to suggest that the covert narcissist is sneaky or that their striving for importance is not as significant as an overt (more extroverted) narcissist. In fact, he reports, the traits of the overt narcissist and the covert narcissist are the same.4 Both overt and covert narcissists navigate the world with a sense of self-importance and fantasize about success and grandeur. So do covert narcissists know what they are doing? While they may be aware on some level that their behaviors have a negative impact on other people, narcissists also tend to lack self-awareness and insight. Because they often believe they deserve the attention and accolades they seek, they may see nothing wrong with their behavior as long as it achieves the intended results. Both overt and covert narcissists need to meet the same clinical criteria to be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder, whether they are extroverted or introverted. Both have deficits in their capacity to regulate their self-esteem.5 Covert narcissists can be difficult to recognize at the outset of a relationship. Many people have fallen victim to the manipulative behaviors of a covert narcissist without realizing what has happened until they are already in emotional pain. It might be more accurate to suggest that the extroverted (overt) narcissist would be a lot easier to see coming than the introverted (covert) narcissist. In relationships, covert narcissists cause hurt due to a sense of a lack of partnership or reciprocity in the relationship. " __________________________________________ It lists almost all of the other discernible symptoms, if after reading that, you still couldn't quite tell whom from whom, i.e. which is Tweedledumb and which, Tweedledumber. (Ultimately, everything they do leads to their own self-destruction, and each other's....their relationships are just a 'pack'...purely transactional.) They're bloody everywhere these days, aren't they. They don't even NEED to be officially diagnosable to ruin people's psyches, bank balances, relationships, ....lives. If he's her (evil) Rotweiller, however, then she's the dominant/Master (could even be a deeply covert psychopath)...and he probably just thinks he is. I know I said they were too young at first but, nope, these two got broken very young AND FEATURE CRUELTY AS WELL AS SPITEFULNESS - and he, currently, is demonstrating his true colours by being drawn to, wanting to associate with, dross. She whom SHOULD have a situation/relationship-saving bond with you, clearly doesn't (e.g. zero loyalty, zero care for you and your feelings). Unbeknownst to him, he's her doggy on a leash, but she's the one that goes around, having to clean up his frequent poop so it LOOKS like she's his Enabler and "apologetic" social relations manager. But what a successful foil/distractor and fall-guy she has in him, eh. Wouldn't surprise me if she was secretly behind everything he's said/done re that friend who (er) dared date someone (details pending)...."YOU tell her!"...or "*sigh* I wish I was brave enough to tell her....", that sort of under-the-table 'cry for help' (with dirty-work). And he carries out her missives because he believes he's HER master-keeper-protector as WELL as mouthpiece 'for the poor, wee, helpless girlie' (because she also makes him look more respectable). That's how this 'gangster and moll' thing usually goes. See what I'm saying/seeing?

Oh, sorry - didn't realise you'd posted a reply already! Will get to that tomorrow morning (just noticed the time!). Night! (Quick PS: should clarify: *malignant* psychopath, I meant. Good, healthy (well raised/nurtured) psychos are FAB... Firemen, Policemen (most), A&E surgeons, mountain rescuers.... incredibly in an emergency and always-always rescuers without needing to share genes or a bond with whomever they risk their own lives or sanities to save/help.)

PS: Did you spot your Freudian slip? "or have a real talk with a human being" Yeah. To be made more human. Because - you COULD have said: - or have a real talk with someone wise/sensible/grounded (anything). But these two need the influence of a HUMAN. See? (I am going...I'm just bwushing my teef...)

No sweat about the reply! This is an asynchronous platform lol, shit happens!! Oh my god I’m starting to think that covert narcissism could actually be the case. I’m going to hold out hope for their sakes that it’s just their inexperience with the real world and real relationships instead of something this serious, but damn. Hard to argue with this. After reflecting on all this I’ve really started to wonder why I even went back in the first place. It’s really difficult to believe that I just let all this go for as long as I did. It’s a lot to read back over. I’m starting to feel more set in my decision to not speak to them ever again (haha), but in theory I would love to see them again someday after they’ve learned a little more about themselves and can join us in the real world for a real talk. Not that I really think I need that in practice, as much as it's nice to imagine. God knows I made a lot of stupid decisions when I was their age. I hope they don’t dwell on them like I do with mine and can just learn and keep going. Thanks for talking all this through with me, dude, and if you have anything else to add I’m all ears

"and if you have anything else to add I’m all ears" Just a BIT?! Hahahaha! You're not out of the woods YET, cherub! Next comes the HOOVER! You've ignored Mangie so it might even be Barkus his Rotweillian self! (...on her gentle, secretly ego-manipulating command, of course...'Oh, YOU'LL be able to get an answer out of him, Barkus (flatter-flatter) - YOU try'. Anyhoo, I'm saving your latest post for tomorrow, now that I've caught up with my older threads. Bear with a little....good for you to have a breather, anyway, and let all the information settle and mingle with what you've experienced ever since you knew them. It'll be like little flashbacks, in sound-byte or image form, and (using a VERY simplified example), you'll go - OMG...that time he gave me toffee...it WASN'T to show he liked me, it was to stop me from commenting! ...That sort of thing. Plus, you'll be realising you're now safe and sound, which is when your mind lets all the stuff you couldn't afford to face and deal-with at the time, come flooding (or pitter-pattering) back in, and meanwhile, edits any memories that got mistaken for good or neutral/harmless (psst!...even their good moods are deceptively toxic). Quick question, though (to get you into a more skeptical, analytical frame-of-mind): Did you ever get concrete proof that what Angie had told you about her home life was true? Or was she "mirroring" what you'd disclosed to HER? Which of the duo, on initial meeting/the early months, was most going, "Me, too!....No wayyy - I said that only yesterday!.... Strawberries are MY favourite fruit!" and all that ollocks? Where and how DID you meet them, anyway?

Now that you mention it, there was a little of that, but more on Marcus’s side. We used to spend hours listening to and discussing old albums, and that's one of the things I miss the most about hanging out with him. Differing opinions on that mostly wasn't a problem, except for the stick up his ass he had about limp bizkit and icp, but I ignored that since I really didn't listen to that and attributed it to him being broken up about an ex who liked it more than anything else. Now I wonder though, but music is small potatoes. If you ever disagreed with him on on of his big things (especially things he hadn't done, like drugs and most things about sexuality) he’d usually try to force his side on you or, when that didn’t work, declare that everyone should drop it. I remember thinking he was older when we met because he was a lot taller than me and had a crazy deep voice. It came up somehow that a few months prior to meeting I’d dropped out of college to rethink my goals when I got panicky about wasting time and money on a worthless degree, and he said “Oh, I felt the exact same way, that’s why I dropped out," and how he wanted to live in a small place and go on a big roadtrip like I had or whatever. Later in the conversation he asked me how old I was (in my 20s to refresh), and he just said “oh…” When I asked him his and he told me he was 19, I actually laughed out loud. It turned out that he’d (obviously) never stepped foot in higher education and was talking about high school and still living with his pop (no shame in that, rent is getting too high haha). Honestly I probably shouldn’t have ignored how much that interaction bothered me at the time, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt since most young people want to seem older, right? Hindsight, I guess. As for Angie, I do believe she really did have these troubles. She’s lgbt (I’ll keep her privacy on which letter) and her family was extremely uncool about it :/ I always got the feeling her parents ran an emotionally strangled household because she really wasn’t very good at communicating when she had a problem, you’d kind of have to drag it out of her and hold her hand through it. Which is a little annoying to have to do constantly, but she was just a kid; kids are high-maintenance and she clearly wasn’t getting the help and guidance she needed at home. I feel safe saying her behavior probably came from dealing with changing expectations as she’s getting closer to adulthood and wanting to see her friends and keep them happy more than any serious undiagnosed* mental health issue. She did have some problems I was aware of but they weren’t anything like narcissism, and most were probably learned behaviors from her family; she complained a lot about their guilt-tripping and manipulation when she didn't want to spend time with them. Combine the need for support, the desire for everyone to be happy no matter what, and Marcus’s very strong opinions and she generally accepted or at least never pushed back on what he said. Although we both agreed he took competitive games way too seriously to enjoy playing with him, haha. I gave up soulcalibur for a long time because he was so exhausting, even when he won. Or you let him win.... Anyway!! I never wanted to impose any beliefs or ideas of how to live on them because these are things you’re better off picking up as you grow and answering for yourself (in my opinion anyway). Looking back to see how Marcus still has such a tight grip on her when he doesn’t even have experience to back his shit up makes me sad for her and (more) angry at him. But if she’s still talking to him, I don’t think I can reach her or even know where I'd start. And as to where we met, there was a lot of distance between each us so (we used to joke about being in a big triangle) we spent pretty much every hangout online. We all hated the distance at the time and talked about how badly we wanted to get together in the same place at the same time, but I guess I don’t have to worry much about them seeing me in public or showing up at my house or something now that we're not talking. Always a silver lining I suppose, even if it's a bitter one. As tough as all of this is it is good to look back on it I think. I don't see myself getting closure from them but maybe I can find it just putting all the pieces together? What a mess it was lol

Hey again! "Now that you mention it, there was a little of that, but more on Marcus’s side. We used to spend hours listening to and discussing old albums, and that's one of the things I miss the most about hanging out with him. Differing opinions on that mostly wasn't a problem, except for the stick up his ass he had about limp bizkit and icp, but I ignored that since I really didn't listen to that and attributed it to him being broken up about an ex who liked it more than anything else. Now I wonder though, but music is small potatoes." So what I'm gathering is, you struck up a friendship with Barkus first, and Angie came not long after, by default of being his gf? And are you saying that the music he reckoned he liked too (which was your taste), differed to wildly to Limp Bizkit and ICP? __________________________ Nay. Music is not small potatoes, it's soul-food... *** Intermission *** I reckon I can tell who Limp B's got their inspiration from. Check these out, "bwoah".... - Run DMC feturing Aerosmith - "Walk This Way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B_UYYPb-Gk - Lenny Kravitz - "Are You Gonna Go My Way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LhCd1W2V0Q - Kriss Kross - Jump: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=010KyIQjkTk (I don't care if they were young - a good track is a good track) - Grandmaster Flash & The Furious Five - "The Message": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYMkEMCHtJ4 - The Sugar Hill Gang - "Rapper's Delight" (longest rap song ever): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKTUAESacQM - The Pixies (my all-time fave group) - Doolittle - full album playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yn3Ls5jZ4g&list=PLCx_l3FfC446YhZSrnYvxRLr3evK943La&index=2 - Alien Ant Farm - "Smooth Criminal": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDl9ZMfj6aE - Beastie Boys - "(You Gotta Fight) For Your Right (to Party): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBShN8qT4lk - And- on a par, IMO, with Bohemian Rhapsody (but grittier): Rush - "Spirit Of The Radio": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Tq-UsaRchI&list=PLCh-1arM0XRqaKe0AnMd2eidNNc2hWyoa&index=6 - Killing Joke - "Eighties": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1U1Ue_5kq8&list=RDMxE-Y142x1s&index=17 - Babylon Zoo - "Spaceman": And THE greatest 'get you dancing' rock track EVER: Ram Jam - "Black Betty": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_2D8Eo15wE And a bit of rock-funk-jazz: - New wave pub rock disco funk post-punk - Average White Band - "Pick Up The Pieces": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIDN1XEkA1I - Lastly but never leastly (rock bands today are still copying them): The Pixies (my all-time fave group) - Doolittle - full album playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Yn3Ls5jZ4g&list=PLCx_l3FfC446YhZSrnYvxRLr3evK943La&index=2 And as a wild guess that you'll like them, best Ska tracks: The Beat - "Mirror In The Bathroom" (they're singing about Barkus again haha): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cw5awfyRfUE The Specials - "Too Much Too Young": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdu7xOFk1QI&list=RDMxE-Y142x1s&index=6 Madness - "One Step Beyond": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOJSM46nWwo&list=RDMxE-Y142x1s&index=19 That should keep you busy? :D Let me know if/which you like? __________________________________________ "If you ever disagreed with him on on of his big things (especially things he hadn't done, like drugs and most things about sexuality) he’d usually try to force his side on you or, when that didn’t work, declare that everyone should drop it." Drop it because he couldn't "win"? Who and how many were 'everyone'? "I remember thinking he was older when we met because he was a lot taller than me and had a crazy deep voice." NSpaths tend to have overly high Testosterone level. "It came up somehow that a few months prior to meeting I’d dropped out of college to rethink my goals when I got panicky about wasting time and money on a worthless degree, and he said “Oh, I felt the exact same way, that’s why I dropped out," and how he wanted to live in a small place and go on a big roadtrip like I had or whatever." IOW, not grow up. "Later in the conversation he asked me how old I was (in my 20s to refresh), and he just said “oh…” When I asked him his and he told me he was 19, I actually laughed out loud." Ohh, deaar...he wouldn't have liked that. That may well have been the (to us, harmless) moment when he decided he'd get you then get you back. "It turned out that he’d (obviously) never stepped foot in higher education and was talking about high school and still living with his pop (no shame in that, rent is getting too high haha). Honestly I probably shouldn’t have ignored how much that interaction bothered me at the time, but I gave him the benefit of the doubt since most young people want to seem older, right? Hindsight, I guess." Yup. With Coverts and what I call "Allverts" (Narc-Spath), you may not spot them coming, but you always, always, spot them going. Know what I mean? "As for Angie, I do believe she really did have these troubles." Yes, but believing isn't concrete evidence (e.g. first-hand witnessing). "She’s lgbt (I’ll keep her privacy on which letter)" HAHA, She's got privacy already, mate! She's even more anonymous than you - and that's saying something! (You could Princess Anne with time on her hands, for all we know?!) Well, if she's a Narc, she'll be Omni-sexual, posing as bi. (Whatever works to make the person her possession, personal slave and/or 'sick bucket'.) "and her family was extremely uncool about it :/" Uncool about what? "I always got the feeling her parents ran an emotionally strangled household because she really wasn’t very good at communicating when she had a problem, you’d kind of have to drag it out of her and hold her hand through it." Yes, but now imagine she's making it up to let you think she's "JUST LIKE YOU!" (an Empath and once-victim). She WOULDN'T be very forthcoming, would she. She'd want to say as little as possible, not really go into any detail. So that's not evidence, either, and could be evidence to the contrary. "Which is a little annoying to have to do constantly," Yeah, it's called, Trying to get blood out of a stone. Typical Covert. " but she was just a kid;" ('Stunted' = still is.) "kids are high-maintenance and she clearly wasn’t getting the help and guidance she needed at home." ...The way SHE told it. We have no evidence, basically, to back-up her (google) "Impressions Management" attempt. HOW SOON INTO THE FRIENDSHIP DID SHE CONFIDE THIS? "I feel safe saying her behavior probably came from dealing with changing expectations as she’s getting closer to adulthood and wanting to see her friends and keep them happy more than any serious undiagnosed* mental health issue." You can't 'diagnose', anyway, unless you're a psychiatrist. But *identifying* what, vocally and behaviourally, is such an unique and extreme disorder, with accordingly limited screenplay and script (which is why in the Comments sections you see people telling other posters that their Nex and how s/he behaved, sounds *exactly* like theirs, is not difficult (as long as you can say it's a pervasive pattern, because there's tempoarily injured and selfish, etc., and then there's permanently...can't be cured). And she needn't meet all the diagnostic criteria, anyway...even in the REGION makes them anywhere from too hard to impossible to stay with/ditto to leave. Can't live with them, can't live without them (so can, actually; your feelings just trick you). "She did have some problems I was aware of but they weren’t anything like narcissism, and most were probably learned behaviors from her family; she complained a lot about their guilt-tripping and manipulation when she didn't want to spend time with them." Yes, but she would say that were she faking being theirs or anyone's victim, rather than the other way around. So, all you've got is her word. "Combine the need for support, the desire for everyone to be happy no matter what, and Marcus’s very strong opinions and she generally accepted or at least never pushed back on what he said." Yes, but she's COVERT so - you've no idea what she was like, the minute she got him home, "behind closed doors". Bullies/Perpetrators rely on privacy and the victim's silence (too scared to talk). "Although we both agreed he took competitive games way too seriously to enjoy playing with him, haha. I gave up soulcalibur for a long time because he was so exhausting, even when he won. Or you let him win...." Sounds like all of my covert and n-spath Nexes, yup. "Anyway!!" Did we emotionally 'flood' there, all-of-a-sudden?? "I never wanted to impose any beliefs or ideas of how to live on them because these are things you’re better off picking up as you grow and answering for yourself (in my opinion anyway). Looking back to see how Marcus still has such a tight grip on her when he doesn’t even have experience to back his shit up makes me sad for her and (more) angry at him." Don't you think, if she'd been a victim of his (even as well as, he of hers, as they could be a cooperative PACK, a typically transactional 'relationship', rather than Lovers), that she would have needed you for moral support or like a mental Oasis, and NOT left all your emails and you, hanging for so long? (Wakey-wakeyyyyyy? Don't go back to 'sleep' now - stay with me...and join those dots.) "But if she’s still talking to him, I don’t think I can reach her or even know where I'd start." You don't have to rescue her. In fact, better you don't if you're not completely au fait with the whole topic. Handling, outfoxing and escaping the clutches of a Narc - NSpath in particular (hardest) - includes an awful lot of counter-intuitive measures. "And as to where we met, there was a lot of distance between each us so (we used to joke about being in a big triangle)" Who said that first - and/or used the word 'triangle'? Try to remember for me. " we spent pretty much every hangout online." Yeah, well, the internet makes it easier for them to present a false persona which, even with 'mere' ether interaction, gets you getting to know and bonding too deeply with a superb (i.e. incredibly-well practised), Method character-actor. Plus, you're on a self-manufactured, imperceptible drugs trip, which majorly helps (google "Sociopathic Hypnotic Effect". " We all hated the distance at the time and talked about how badly we wanted to get together in the same place at the same time, but I guess I don’t have to worry much about them seeing me in public or showing up at my house or something now that we're not talking. Always a silver lining I suppose, even if it's a bitter one." That's a GIANT silver lining, actually. "As tough as all of this is it is good to look back on it I think." Oh, god yes! You can't heal unless you do. (And that's one of the reasons Narcs don't heal/change/grow-up: they can't self-reflect, neither on a situation nor how they behaved and how it came over and impacted on the other's feelings (they lack any motivation, anyway, because they couldn't care LESS...you may as well be a coffee-table). (Are you walnut or oak? LOL) "I don't see myself getting closure from them but maybe I can find it just putting all the pieces together?" YES. That's and its partner (knowledge=disempowerment of the perp), studying-up on their entire repertoire - as a friend or boyfriend. "What a mess it was lol" Yuh...just a bit. (Don't remind me haha.)

Oops, sorry - typos: Edit: ___________ - Babylon Zoo - "Spaceman": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCbAEkfXSDE And THE greatest 'get you dancing' rock track EVER: Ram Jam - "Black Betty": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_2D8Eo15wE And a bit of rock-funk-jazz: - Ian Dury & The Blockheads - "Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WGVgfjnLqc - Average White Band - "Pick Up The Pieces": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIDN1XEkA1I

Hello back!! First off thanks for the recommendations!!! I’m pumped to have some new music to check out, been listening to the same old stuff lately and it’s getting boring haha. These are going into my rotation for work Now to answer questions As far as music we had a few bands in common, I think the last thing we were talking about was the kind of music popular when we were younger, like panic at the disco. And in case I misspoke B&A weren’t (and probably aren’t dating now) as far as I know? Barkus kind of had... unique taste in partners and Angie was a little too nice for him. I’ll elaborate so you don’t have to ask lol, but I noticed he really seemed to like people who were totally different from him. Usually the kinds of people he criticized the most harshly in private weirdly enough, think high-energy and provocative partying types. Bonus points if they had, or he perceived them to have by his standards, substance abuse problems. If I had to hazard a guess, which I should know better but will do anyway :p it was about him wanting to “fix them” (YIKES) and probably had something to do with his own parents’ relationship. The way he talked about their divorce and his mom in particular makes me wonder if he was subconsciously trying to reenact their problem for a chance to fix it? Don’t listen to me, I think I read that in a book somewhere and forgot what it actually said, haha! In arguments he would just generally avoid conflict if the group was larger than us three. And definitely if he didn’t think he was winning he’d try to let it go (eye roll). And as for Angie: I knew her a little before I met him but not super well. We didn’t hang out all too often and you’re probably right about privacy, cat’s already out of the bag if they somehow find this anyway (unlikely as they were NOT forum people LOL), so I’ll just let it out. She was trans (mtf) and told me within somewhere around 3 days of meeting iirc, she was worried I thought she was a dude. I didn’t have a problem with this and part of why we started talking more was due to me sharing some of my knowledge on the medical questions she had, talking through some of her problems (hold on I just realized something, I’ll add it down lower), and eventually come out. It could’ve gone worse, but not much. Her parents straight up refused to talk about it with her after that and expected her to forget about being herself. That whole situation is why I believe her on this stuff. It was hard to watch. She was a little different after that, almost unnoticeable but after talking to her for that while I couldn’t help but see it, it was like she was just that little bit more afraid and sad. I do wonder why she stopped talking to me as much though. Maybe you’re spot on about there being a transactional nature to it and I just ran out of things to offer her? Charitably I’d say it was her new hobbies that I didn’t get. Maybe she felt like I was more distant or something? Or she wanted to so something that I didn’t and it hurt her feelings? I’d hate to accuse of her of being retaliatory but I don’t really know. I’ll give it some thought. *** And now that I think about it, I feel like she had a little less of an issue talking through stuff before we became a group… I really can’t believe I didn’t notice that until right now. Damn. But I can’t really assume that it was Barkus, maybe it was just things being so bleak that did that? Or the potential transactionalness? (transactionality?? I don’t feel like looking it up lol) Or maybe all of these? I just don’t know. Maybe I’m just imagining it.. Oh, and another note on her parents: I remember once they accidentally added Barkus and me to a weird group chat while snooping through her phone after she went to bed… that was startling. I don’t think she did that because we used to talk on a platform that we could organize and change to suit whatever we were doing. We never used DMs to talk unless it was something that was only between 2 of us or was a spoiler for a tv show or something, otherwise it would’ve been too messy and made it harder to keep our stuff straight. She never had any problems talking to us in our common grounds, so it would be extremely out of character for her to do something like that, which is why I trust her on this. And speaking of the internet, I think I was the one who called it a triangle first. It was a little funny at the time since I’m roughly central and equidistant between them both so whenever we played games that required a host, I usually handled that to keep everyone’s ping even. And also yeah haha, I guess thinking back about how hard it was to just enjoy a little harmless competion did kind of get heavy. You’ve got crazy observation skills LOL, I feel like I should be paying you! Especially for the info about narcissism; been reading a little about it here and there and I’m kind of shocked at how much it adds up. Especially interesting that it corresponds to hormones too. I remember reading that if you have more testosterone in your body than it can reasonably handle it makes you overconfident and even self-destructive depending on just how much there is, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it? Crazy stuff!!

Hopping back real fast to say crazy was a terrible word to sign off on lol, wild or intriguing or something would've probably been kinder, oops

Be with you asap! And no worries - crazy isn't our idea of a terrible word. In fact, we use it a LOT - have to! - as you can imagine! (And this is not our first Barcus and Mangie, not by a long chalk!) You can relax.....We're not those two. ;)

PS: Transactionality. Or you could just say it like - potential for a transactional relationship. (It's not really transactional. You get shortchanged very time or worse, they promise but never actually deliver. Google (with prefix 'Narcissist -') Future-Faking. Also - Throwing Crumbs. Also - Managing Down Your Expectations. Also - UUUGHF. And - AARGH!. And - EW! Haha.

"Hello back!! First off thanks for the recommendations!!! I’m pumped to have some new music to check out, been listening to the same old stuff lately and it’s getting boring haha. These are going into my rotation for work" You're welcome! Interested to see if you like any of them! Music's very cathartic and healing, as well. "Now to answer questions" Ta. "As far as music we had a few bands in common, I think the last thing we were talking about was the kind of music popular when we were younger, like panic at the disco." Is that a group? "And in case I misspoke B&A weren’t (and probably aren’t dating now) as far as I know? Barkus kind of had... unique taste in partners and Angie was a little too nice for him. I’ll elaborate so you don’t have to ask lol, but I noticed he really seemed to like people who were totally different from him. Usually the kinds of people he criticized the most harshly in private weirdly enough, think high-energy and provocative partying types." You mean the bad and 'out-there' boys and girls type of 'in-crowd'? "Bonus points if they had, or he perceived them to have by his standards, substance abuse problems." So BASICALLY....he was a pretend know-it-all who decided to 'go out into the study field'? Or was it more a case of getting to hand-out with people he deemed beneath him/more broken, for ongoing superiority's sake? Or other? "If I had to hazard a guess, which I should know better but will do anyway :p it was about him wanting to “fix them” (YIKES)" (Haha, you've just answered me) How can someone who's had such a sheltered, closed-circuit upbringing be a fixer of anything of that depth? What qualifies him to play rescuer? "and probably had something to do with his own parents’ relationship. The way he talked about their divorce and his mom in particular makes me wonder if he was subconsciously trying to reenact their problem for a chance to fix it? Don’t listen to me, I think I read that in a book somewhere and forgot what it actually said, haha!" No-no, it's perfectly plausible....perfectly common. It's when you can't understand HOW someone could be like they are/were so literally put yourself into the same sets of shoes so that you can feel it for-real and work it out that way (for those lacking in imagination, unable to picture and extrapolate in their head). But WHAT'S Re-enacting - master or servant? And whom is he re-enacting? If it were his parental unit, he'd have to play both victim and perp, in-turn. AND be in a romantic relationship! So has he got a new gf inside that new group? You sure he hadn't long FINISHED re-eacting and chosen to "be" like his dad or mum (which?). "In arguments he would just generally avoid conflict if the group was larger than us three." Interestink. )Not enough confident conviction/proof, then?) "And definitely if he didn’t think he was winning he’d try to let it go (eye roll)." (me too) Over-Opinionated Without a Cause, is what you're saying - yes? "And as for Angie: I knew her a little before I met him but not super well. We didn’t hang out all too often and you’re probably right about privacy, cat’s already out of the bag if they somehow find this anyway (unlikely as they were NOT forum people LOL), so I’ll just let it out. She was trans (mtf)" OHHHHHH. Okay. Male to female. Cheers for that. So presumably, Barkus is.... er?....bisexual?...gay? What - and he thought Angie was one of the 'out-there rebels'? Does she look and sound convincingly female or does her prior masculinity show? " and told me within somewhere around 3 days of meeting iirc, she was worried I thought she was a dude." Ah. Sounds like Angie's just answered that for me: yes, it did show. Correct? " I didn’t have a problem with this" Nope. A person's a person. All genders have tear-ducts; that's good enough for me that there ain't much in it outside of bonding then making a baby. As long as they're kind and nice (and interesting to you). " and part of why we started talking more was due to me sharing some of my knowledge on the medical questions she had, talking through some of her problems (hold on I just realized something, I’ll add it down lower)," So you were useful to her. Okay. (Yah, we're going to be seeing a lot of that from now on: "Hang on a minute"..."Wait up - just remembered!"...."Now that I think about it...!". Par for the Recovery Course. But a good sign your psyche (inner animal) knows you're safe enough to sit down, relax, and carefully unpack the luggage, see what they sneaked in there when you weren't looking, so to speak. It won't let you do it before you are.) "and eventually come out. It could’ve gone worse, but not much. Her parents straight up refused to talk about it with her after that and expected her to forget about being herself." Didn't get that - talk about what - his sex-change? "That whole situation is why I believe her on this stuff. It was hard to watch. " You witnessed that with your own eyes and ears (and was it more than once?)? Relay the incident, please? "She was a little different after that, almost unnoticeable but after talking to her for that while I couldn’t help but see it, it was like she was just that little bit more afraid and sad." Afraid of what? Sad about what? "I do wonder why she stopped talking to me as much though. Maybe you’re spot on about there being a transactional nature to it and I just ran out of things to offer her? Charitably I’d say it was her new hobbies that I didn’t get. Maybe she felt like I was more distant or something? Or she wanted to so something that I didn’t and it hurt her feelings? I’d hate to accuse of her of being retaliatory but I don’t really know. I’ll give it some thought." The point is this, though. Yours and your friends' circumstances can change; sure. But it's the bond that's grown, day-by-day, between you (even just from nice thoughts/memories of them in the interim between meet-ups)... That's supposed to be the glue. Which means you don't just dump the entire friendship as if it never happened! Diff/all the diff. WHERE WAS THE GLUE? *** And now that I think about it, I feel like she had a little less of an issue talking through stuff before we became a group…" There you go. Yep...betting she loved your helpfulness, knowledge, forthrightness and honesty when it was benefitting her, but, beyond that - no... So keep you and she in a group so that all such CLOSER conversations can no longer take place. (Is that a "ping!" in your head?) " I really can’t believe I didn’t notice that until right now." Well, you can now that I've explained it. It's just survivalistically sensible! (Is survivalistically a word?...you've got me at it now, hahah!) "Damn." YYYYYeeah. And this is just the tip of the rotten iceberg! LOADS of revelations and joinable dots presenting themselves to you, still to come. "But I can’t really assume that it was Barkus, maybe it was just things being so bleak that did that? Or the potential transactionalness? (transactionality?? I don’t feel like looking it up lol) Or maybe all of these? I just don’t know. Maybe I’m just imagining it.." Noted you're still calling her Angie but, having no problem calling him Barcus: Evidence A, Your Honour. ...But let's see what time and more Dots do in the coming weeks/months...(dan-dan-daaann). No, of course you're not imagining it! "Oh, and another note on her parents: I remember once they accidentally added Barkus and me to a weird group chat while snooping through her phone after she went to bed… that was startling." UH-OHHHH! Red Flag Alert! (Boundary-crashing and Huge Inappropriateness.) "I don’t think she did that because we used to talk on a platform that we could organize and change to suit whatever we were doing." Well, hang on - no-one said she had. Except for you (in your head as you typed that). The fact you considered it could have been her, and she blamed her parents. (They do like to destabilize/shock you.) Go over these incidents again in greater detail. "We never used DMs to talk unless it was something that was only between 2 of us or was a spoiler for a tv show or something, otherwise it would’ve been too messy and made it harder to keep our stuff straight. She never had any problems talking to us in our common grounds, so it would be extremely out of character for her to do something like that, which is why I trust her on this." Out of WHICH character - the fake one or the real one? (You see? So maybe it wasn't. Thoughts?) "And speaking of the internet, I think I was the one who called it a triangle first." You could feel it, huh. " It was a little funny at the time since I’m roughly central and equidistant between them both so whenever we played games that required a host, I usually handled that to keep everyone’s ping even." What's wrong with Lynchpin or HQ, for example? Nah. Triangle is right. I think, without you, they had nothing left between them. Did they crumble during the time after you'd ghosted them? "And also yeah haha, I guess thinking back about how hard it was to just enjoy a little harmless competion did kind of get heavy." TELL ME ABOUD ID! Google something like "Narcissists - every relationship a competition'. It's easy to tell with the Overts/those in Overt mode, but the Coverts - not so much. You tend to find out they were your competitor/foe, only when confronting or dumping (when they rip the mask off to freak you out and shut you up instantly). "You’ve got crazy observation skills LOL, I feel like I should be paying you!" Cheers. Yeeaaah. Woo-ooo.... Sometimes it's good, sometimes I wish I was just bloody normal. Hey-ho. I love delivering good/productive news, though. Mind you - yours aren't so bad either, going by your posts! Definitely do more - they'll help you sort your thoughts as well. (PS: you realise you can donate? Support drop-down - fourth down. That'd be helpful if you can afford anything? If not, no worries, just pay it forward. :)) " Especially for the info about narcissism; been reading a little about it here and there and I’m kind of shocked at how much it adds up." YyyyyyyyUP(-ah!). Again, tell me aboudid. So now you know: mental ilness (this case, Cluster B in the DSM-V) isn't always as obvious as the person turning purple and quacking like a duck, like people seem to think. Noo. They just don't work right, don't work like other people, do the opposite and seemingly counter-intuitive/self-destructive...and they're horrid AND alarmingly infectious (= DRRRINGGG!..."that's your 50 minutes, time's up, see you next week!"). " Especially interesting that it corresponds to hormones too. I remember reading that if you have more testosterone in your body than it can reasonably handle it makes you overconfident and even self-destructive depending on just how much there is, so I wonder if that has anything to do with it? Crazy stuff!!" Yyyyyup. Keep reading and posting (- thumbs-up!) - it's doing you good, helping you process faster!

Yeah, B is bi, and he and Angie are just friends unless something extremely drastic has changed. They’ve never expressed any romantic interest in each other, so if I found out they got together I’d be genuinely shocked. And Angie came off as a girl, I think she was just anxious, but I know reading people's gender can be subjective in special cases. I mean, you thought I was a girl when I first posted, and a surprising amount of people at work have assumed the same thing before laying eyes on me LOL. And because of her parents she can’t go on HRT or get any kind of surgery, they won’t even acknowledge her, forget letting her go get treated, especially if she wants to get a degree after she graduates. :( When she came out I think her mom got scared or something because her she didn’t seem to mind at first, and even promised to take her shopping for clothes. But the next day she cancelled it and told her not to talk about it anymore. I’d say the fear and sadness I noticed was very general. She didn’t have friends in her local area to support her with this stuff and she just seemed more withdrawn, like she lost a lot of joy and volition as far as pursuing art and music like she used to. Note that she never expressed this to me, it’s just my sense of things. She drew a lot less often and when she did post art it was usually pictures of sad stuff, like a self-portrait of herself sitting alone or a damaged home. Maybe the reason I can’t bring myself to call her Mangie is just that it feels… wrong? I don’t know. She never was a problem like Barkus was (also I changed his pseudonym by accident the first time and I had to stop pretending it wasn’t funny), she just kind of drifted. I should also mention the reason I explained the parent incident in detail was because I wanted to make sure it wasn’t misinterpreted lol, I think it would make sense to doubt it but her parents were just like that with her. We all goofed around in a private server and after we got evidence of snooping we were a lot more careful and protective of her privacy when she needed to talk. Funnily enough, I think they’re still talking, at least sometimes. I don’t know how much they talk about serious things considering how much I started to see that part of the friendship dry up before I left. I used to get notifications about games they were playing but shortly after the first posts in this thread I just sucked it up and removed them from all my stuff and deleted my accounts. I figured I'd probably benefit from making the distance more official, and if I really need to I imagine I’ll be able to find them again pretty easily. But at least for now I’m not regretting it, and I see less and less of a future for that, if you catch my drift. I think I already put this somewhere in this thread but it is kind of funny thinking back on Bark telling me I was the glue in the friendship, but that I ended up feeling more and more like an outsider until I just couldn’t take it anymore. I’m sure there’s some meaning in that but I can’t find it. You mentioned in a previous response that B sounds like he doesn’t want to grow up. I wonder if you might be onto something with that, because these days I think they’re talking to a younger kid I met a few times. He came from B’s racist buddy group, which kind of struck me at the time because he seemed pretty nice and open-minded, if childish, but he is a kid, so whatever. Maybe it was as simple as me moving up (or trying my damnedest to lol) in the world and them staying in the same place, and genuinely wanting to in spite of how much they complained about it. I get being afraid, and in Angie's case actually facing a threat, but it felt like neither of them really made any moves to even try to fix anything. I’ll admit that I do feel a little silly getting so broken up about a friendship with a bunch of kids going sour, but I did really care about them. Even if it’s silent, rejection still stings a little. All I wanted was to encourage them to strike out for themselves and see them go for their goals, but I can’t exactly push them out of their nests when I gotta go get the worm… or any other less confused metaphors you can imagine lol. I feel a little out of my depth giving advice but as long as you don’t have a problem with it I think I’d like to stick around and help out where I can! Once I get my paycheck I’ll see about donating!!! (And yes, panic at the disco was a band and then became a single dude for a while I think? I wanted to be sensitive in case any lurkers were fans but we liked to laugh at him... Sorry if there are any reading this… I promise I’m not judging lol)

"you thought I was a girl when I first posted," No, I thought you were a 38-42-year-old woman - but only because of your high eQ, there wasn't anything palpably effeminite other than that record-breaker (LOL). Plus I had no face/physique to go on. Whereas, you met Angie in-the-flesh, didn't you? Or was this predominantly an online friend group? Anyway, if she hasn't had the op nor hormone treatment, nor identity change - doesn't she fall under being a Transvestite? (Don't know, I'm not that up-to-date on it all just lately, you'll have to educate me.) (So what persuasion are you, if any?) What had they been doing for all of that time after you'd ghosted them? Re. Angie and Barkus as a couple. Well, then, if Angie's so normal, what I want to know is: how come she automatically sided with Barkus regarding that poor girl who had the 'utter evil temerity' to get primed by the older bloke? Either her thinking's shot just as much as his, hence agreed with him, OR she was showing couples-type loyalty...OR becaaaauuuuuuse..... he owed her a Tenner? Just seems a little odd, don't you think? Maybe that's why there was even less motivation than normal to notice and react when you briefly ghosted/went quiet? What length of time did you say it took, again, for Angie to get in e-touch? I mean, if she was going to return then why go schtum for so long in the first place? Something happening? (Will continue tomorrow - hasta manana!)

"When she came out I think her mom got scared or something because her she didn’t seem to mind at first, and even promised to take her shopping for clothes. But the next day she cancelled it and told her not to talk about it anymore." Again, is this an event Angie told you about, during or after-the-fact (which?) or did you witness it first-hand (both Before, when she made Angie the offer, and After, when she welched on it)? If it did happen, it sounds very odd, and very immature on the part of the parents, especially if nothing had actually happened that might have changed the mother's mind. But anyway, as a mother, you can't mess around with your kid's emotions like that - building her up, her hopes and expectations, before then knocking her down...AT THE ELEVENTH HOUR. Well, not without a *very* good reason (e.g. if she'd got in trouble with the law on the eve of the shopping trip...but then, why would she with that incentive right on the horizon? If she didn't, then, it was just cruel). Do you know what it was? So far, they don't exactly sound like normal, empathetic, supportive parents. I also couldn't help notice that, in your previous post you reported that THEY (Angie's parents) had liked Barkus...because he had always been polite with HIM (meaning, the Dad). Was that a subconscious 'show and tell' there? Was Dad very strict and dominant? "I’d say the fear and sadness I noticed was very general. She didn’t have friends in her local area " Why not? "(to support her with this stuff) and she just seemed more withdrawn, like she lost a lot of joy and volition as far as pursuing art and music like she used to." Lost her joie de vivre, or, her mojo. Depressed? "Note that she never expressed this to me, it’s just my sense of things." Noted. (PURELY your sense, you mean, not 'just' as in, merely). "She drew a lot less often and when she did post art it was usually pictures of sad stuff, like a self-portrait of herself sitting alone or a damaged home." A damaged home?? Had she drawn it? Describe? But, without being premature - seems a pretty clear call for someone to pay attention to me: I am alone in the world because I come from a damaged home. Non? "Maybe the reason I can’t bring myself to call her Mangie is just that it feels… wrong? I don’t know. She never was a problem like Barkus was (also I changed his pseudonym by accident the first time and I had to stop pretending it wasn’t funny), she just kind of drifted." Fairenoughski...if you really feel she was non-malignant. But I just know that if I witnessed one of my friends siding with a ....bully doesn't cover it, given his deliberate RE-VICTIMISATION, and invalidation, and depriving of justice, of that girl - and, I wouldn't care if they were my BEST friend... if I saw them do that, or even just got wind of it, I'd be down on them like a tonne of bricks and wouldn't wish to continue associating with them in any way, shape or form, any longer, WHAT.SO.EVER. Victims don't USUALLY want to associate with psychological bullies. And yet what do we have on the evidence table? The woman/girl is complaining to you that she's basically living with parents who are unfair to her, allegedly without rationale, as well as, in her business too much to be healthy (unless it's because, unbeknownst to you, she's constantly wayward and hence they've HAD to be)? AT THE ROUGHLY SAME TIME (or too soon after), we have Angie, turning around AND DOING THE SAME THING TO THAT POOR GIRL (by siding with Barkus). I don't know about you but I call that TWO bullies. And it's akin to condemning a rape victim for having gone out-of-doors in a short skirt, thereby 'asking for it' (poor, weak-willed wickle wapists, ahhh). Basically, BOTH of them, taking the side of a predator...WHILE he's actually in the act. Gosh, didn't Barkus wish to RESCUE this prime rescue candidate, then? How queer. He's very selective, isn't he. He seems to want to be nice to Chavs and horrid to normal girls. Can you argue that? Can you see it, now I lay it out like that? Not just bullying. Bullyingn someone who's already being bullied. There is 'pouncing/swooping on someone when they're down' and then there's that. YUCK. So how come the passage of time, softened you? Or was it the pressure of loneliness, making you pay your Cognitive Dissonance with Confirmation Bias ...basically, 'Ah, but not Angie, that's different'. Thoughts now? If you still think she's a victim rather than a self-victimising emotional bully, then, I think you could do with an honest Debrief conversation with her, if I'm honest. "I should also mention the reason I explained the parent incident in detail was because I wanted to make sure it wasn’t misinterpreted lol, I think it would make sense to doubt it but her parents were just like that with her. We all goofed around in a private server and after we got evidence of snooping we were a lot more careful and protective of her privacy when she needed to talk." Er...You *didn't* explain it in detail; I've asked for you to. Can you? But just for now: WHO was a lot more careful and protective of her privacy? And couldn't she control her gadget privacy herself? "Funnily enough, I think they’re still talking, at least sometimes." How can you tell? "I don’t know how much they talk about serious things considering how much I started to see that part of the friendship dry up before I left. I used to get notifications about games they were playing but shortly after the first posts in this thread I just sucked it up and removed them from all my stuff and deleted my accounts. I figured I'd probably benefit from making the distance more official, and if I really need to I imagine I’ll be able to find them again pretty easily." Good call! You need the peace and quiet, with nothing new plonking into your Emotional In-Tray so that you can sift through it all at your leisure and let those dots fall and join where they really belong. that example up there being prime: victims aren't hypocrites; non-empathetic, conscience-impaired, 'constantly bursting to discharge anger on someone weakened/unable to defend themselves' bullies are. Narcs are famous for their hypocrisy, their "all the rules for you" Dual Standards. Even if they spout it correctly in theory - there's a disconnect between applying it in reality...they can talk the talk but not walk the walk. I call showing contempt and condemnation towards that girl a Giant (downright disturbing and just too nasty) Tick for the pair of them, don't you? (Do these two additionally go around claiming to Jews that the Holocaust never happened? It maybe be pettier/more child level, but in terms of vein and principle, the two crimes are on a par...Maxi and Mini. See it? PERSECUTION of the already persecuted. But not bothered, still too busy convincing herself and everyone around her that SHE is the picked-on, the cheated, the persecuted... I'm beginning to think of those early-on confidences she shared with you were actually her giving your glasses with which to always from then on view her, a Rose tint. The "Impressions Management" set-up. Then, as soon as she could see you'd swallowed it all, you were rather too swiftly manipulated out and away from twosome meaningfuls. EVER AGAIN. That saying... "The Bullied, Bully" applies ONLY to Narcs. YOU...didn't even LIKE her. But fairness, kindness and justice is non-discriminatory for you. Quite frankly, that means you'd make a fantastic Emergency Services rescuer (and get paid for it). Your Firemen/women, for example: they don't need to know or be related to the people they risk their own lives to save. Justice For All (even peeps we don't even like). True-Born Rescuer attitude. And additionally, in with that - doing what just has to be done, regardless of how you FEEL about it. Socially-Moralistically Responsible/Dutiful. Summer's coming... Beach weather... temporary Lifeguard job??? Barkus, on the other hand, seems to want to rescue the impossible to rescue...the too-far-gones....lost souls. Or are damaged types easier to dupe as well as impress? Here, maybe Angie led Barkus on with all indications of a Best Friendship and then found himself shoved back at arm's length, same as you? Maybe that's what he meant by, you were the glue? I agree you were the glue, but disagree that you were rejected. More like, the pair of themm Constructively Dismissed themselves before you actually grew x-ray vision and saw through them even more (- they probably could tell...predator senses and all that -) than ever. Think about it: they didn't ghost you, they just tip-toed out. By the time YOU ghosted, you were simply making THEIR behaved decisions, formal...ABOVE-table. They don't like nosy, analytical, Inspector Poirot types...makes you a huge worry for them...like a bomb that could go off. One comment from you that hits disturbingly close to home and - you're out/they're backing away at the rates of knotts (but making it SEEM gradual with their meaningless (and, note, insensitively responsive) CRUMB-THROWING). It's a big Red flag when they try to press the Re-Set button like that....message after weeks/months of silence and completely ignore the questions/points in your previous message. Swat Narx Do. MASTERS ask the questions, not Slaves (where, in your case, Slave means Unconditional Parent including mood-buoyer). Try to think of the last interaction you had with Angie as, non-response, made you Block? Had you said something probing/salient, indicate something a bit close to the truth, say, in the belief it would be well-received like, seemingly, in the early days? "But at least for now I’m not regretting it, and I see less and less of a future for that, if you catch my drift." I don't need to catch your drift - you just spelled it out (haha!). It IS, LITERALLY, futile. They don't have a Love programme AND they're constantly-constantly destructive, you-destructive and self-destructive. It's impossible to have any relationship with one wherein you feel more than a piddly 6 months' worth of safety and security (EMOTIONAL indispensibility). They can't bond properly/at all. They're cripples, not just temporarily/situationally wounded. Diff/all the 'banging head on brick wall' difference. "I think I already put this somewhere in this thread but it is kind of funny thinking back on Bark telling me I was the glue in the friendship, but that I ended up feeling more and more like an outsider until I just couldn’t take it anymore. I’m sure there’s some meaning in that but I can’t find it." Sorry, I'm ahead of you (refer to above). Not so much Triangle as Bermuda Triangle. "You mentioned in a previous response that B sounds like he doesn’t want to grow up. I wonder if you might be onto something with that, because these days I think they’re talking to a younger kid I met a few times. He came from B’s racist buddy group, which kind of struck me at the time because he seemed pretty nice and open-minded, if childish, but he is a kid, so whatever. Maybe it was as simple as me moving up (or trying my damnedest to lol) in the world and them staying in the same place, and genuinely wanting to in spite of how much they complained about it. I get being afraid, and in Angie's case actually facing a threat, but it felt like neither of them really made any moves to even try to fix anything. I’ll admit that I do feel a little silly getting so broken up about a friendship with a bunch of kids going sour, but I did really care about them. Even if it’s silent, rejection still stings a little. All I wanted was to encourage them to strike out for themselves and see them go for their goals, but I can’t exactly push them out of their nests when I gotta go get the worm… or any other less confused metaphors you can imagine lol." Not confused - clear as a bell. I think your FEELINGS are confused (natural). But your mind isn't. Yep. It dawns on you that you're an actual adult now....and yet, comparing yourself to them, your friends aren't maturing A JOT. Couple more years and you'd have felt embarrassed that they were ever your friends. Couple of cutlery-clangers, I reckon... Scene at a dinner-party/gathering: "You don't believe in God? That means you're going to Hell!"..... "Your sister/aunt/whatever is dating someone too old for her? That means she's an evil slut!" ...(and other Golden Oldies)...................CLANGGGGG!.........open mouths..........(host whispers: 'I think it's best if you take your friends home now, please'). "I feel a little out of my depth giving advice but as long as you don’t have a problem with it I think I’d like to stick around and help out where I can! Once I get my paycheck I’ll see about donating!!!" But your post was brill. Maybe ignore how you feel in terms of not your normal level of confidence. You seem to be able to feel the lack of confidence but do it anyway so - PLEASE DO, THANK-YOU-VERY-MUCH! "(And yes, panic at the disco was a band and then became a single dude for a while I think? I wanted to be sensitive in case any lurkers were fans but we liked to laugh at him... Sorry if there are any reading this… I promise I’m not judging lol)" I shall check them out! Yeah...I think you can afford to turn your sensitive-to-others dial DOWN a couple of notches, actually. You're KINDA walking on eggshells...No es necessita! Did you realise? Judging and Being Judgmental are two different things. One is measuring/contextualising and the other is condemning (hypocritically, usually). PS: It IS VERY HARD, though, to spot the dots when you've been amongst covert-vulnerable-avoidants. It's sooo subtle, usually it's like a kalaiedoscope telescope (the kids' toy). All that's needed is just one tiny but vital shift and suddenly everything's in sharp focus, a la, 'AHHH....THERE'S THE CLEAR PICTURE, FINALLY...and that white blob was actually a swan on a lake, not a cloud in the sky!' You'd been fractionally out-of-focus but where it'd been JUST ENOUGH to have merged and disguised the dots. Or rather, you'd been FED the picture that way ("twisting and shifting" the truth). Check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SsccRkLLzU Watching it, you just KNOW that a narc (social vampire/climber) with an agenda would tell it like the second version. ....Roger! - Over?

PPS: 1. Despite you didn't really like her, you defended that young woman, like the true definition of a Real Man...protecting anyone who deserves protection just because they're human,....putting your personal feelings to one side (in fact, in your case, completely furthest from your mind) and tried to defend her name. All DESPITE the potential cost to you (peeing off and losing your verbally bullying frie- no, Fiends, by presenting standards they'd not a hope in hell of ever reaching, you being at a HEIGHT they'd no hope of ever reaching (ergo how are they going to bring you down?). (Bad Slave! heh-heh) 2. Despite your lack your normal (truckload!) of confidence, you can produce fabuloso posts, i.e. CAN PERFORM UNDER PRESSURE. Public Speaker (Political/Charitable) Money Broker RT Police Officer/C.I.D. Fireman Paramedic/A&E Surgeon/Doctor/Nurse (and the Ambulance driver) Famous Rockband Front Man/Lead Singer (can you sing?) Army Sniper (or have Drones taken over?) Just - ANYTHING where nerves of steel are required. (I think I'm still right in saying, Public Speaking is right up there in people's list of 'everyday' social fears; that's why it pays so much.) If you CAN sing: X-Factor! :D Whatever...you're way more confident than other people (but just didn't realise), meaning, your loss of confidence (thus your tip-toeing/worrying) just makes you more person-average-on-a-GOOD-day (until you recover back to Super-). What ideas did you have for a career, anyway? (And don't say Librarian, haha!)

Hello again!! Finally got my day off and time to respond lol (Gonna borrow your style a little since I’m a little behind on answering) “Whereas, you met Angie in-the-flesh, didn't you? Or was this predominantly an online friend group?” We were online as she very rarely came even near where I lived, and I can help with the gender stuff!!!! Depending on how in-depth you want to go it can be a lot to take in, so I’ll try to keep it as simple as possible: Transvestite is a term that’s fallen out of favor for its pathologizing blanket-use against both cross-dressers who were just dudes who liked to wear skirts sometimes and actual trans women, so most people don’t like it. However!! I have met a few people who do identify as such or see it as something to “take back” so to speak, so you’re doing the right thing here by asking (imagine a thumbs up emoji and a gold star, I’m on desktop right now). A trans person who can’t access treatments/care/what have you is still trans, just a trans person that doesn’t have any of the accoutrements so to speak :p Kind of like a model airplane kit or a lego set; it may not match the box when you open it, but all the pieces are there, it just needs a little time to put together :) And as for me, I’m just some guy LOL “...how come she automatically sided with Barkus…” Honestly this was enough to make me question why I was so concerned about her. Going off what I do know from hanging out with her, it’s either that she agreed with him, or that she consciously decided not to do anything about it in spite of whatever feelings she might’ve had in order to maintaining the status quo. Now that I have some distance, the first is unacceptable and the second is sad but still a motivation that reflects poorly on her. As far as her contacting, the first time was on my birthday. It probably wasn’t clear that I’d cut ties at that point, it had probably been just a few days then. I can’t say for sure since I deleted it, but I think the second message was at least a month later, maybe a month and a half. I can’t remember what I’d said last, probably not much since all my casual greetings and silly things I thought she’d like went ignored. “are you alive” was all I got if memory serves. I don’t know what I’d say either but damn. And now parents: I didn’t witness this stuff, but I do remember her telling me she wouldn’t be able to hang out while she was out on the promised shopping trips and stuff, then very sadly telling me that they were abruptly cancelled. Based on what she said, I guess her mom was in denial or afraid? It is common, even though it’s sad, for parents to destroy their relationship with their kid for trying to come out. I think I remember her telling me they were non-practicing catholics or something like that, or maybe her mom watched too many weird tiktoks. Who can say but her? And did I say that her parents liked him? I might’ve miscommunicated something in there, I’ve never had any strong indication of what they thought of either me or Barky. Mangie never said much about it; I’m not sure she ever talked about us to them, but again, who can say but her? In her art I would definitely say their were notes of depression… she sketched this house with a hole in the roof and I think the doors and windows were broken iirc. You’re probably right about the broken home being literal, albeit emotionally. She expressed to me once that she didn’t like the people around her because they were all (paraphrasing) “thieves who celebrated crime, drugs, and bad music.” I wonder how much of that was something she borrowed from Bark’s or her parents' worldviews and how much was her own. Maybe B just magnified whatever hostility she already had and gave her permission to let it out. “Er...You *didn't* explain it in detail; I've asked for you to. Can you?” Let me see… it was the early morning, I’d just woken up to get my stuff going and found that group chat. Me and Bark got there first, and were a little concerned since it seemed serious for her to make that instead of say something in our server with channels dedicated to everything from talking through problems and feelings (ironically fell into disuse) to sharing photos we’d taken during the week. We asked her if everything was ok or if she needed to talk, and apparently she thought one of us two had made it. She concluded that her parents had been snooping through her phone, as they'd done before she said, and made it by accident. She told us that there wasn’t anything bad in any of our communications but that she’d need to be careful to keep it that way. I can’t remember for sure, but I’m reasonably sure this happened after an evening she decided to stay home and talk to us instead of going with her family to buy a new refrigerator. (breaking it in half for ease)

(part 2/2) “maybe Angie led Barkus on with all indications of a Best Friendship and then found himself shoved back at arm's length, same as you? Maybe that's what he meant by, you were the glue?” Probably, now that you mention it! I remember him complaining to me one of the last few times we spoke about her moping over something and not just saying what the problem was. Since I deleted all my stuff and removed them from what I couldn’t, it’s possible things are different now, but as recently as a few weeks ago I was getting notifications that they were still up to the same old stuff together; maybe they became too insular and are stuck with each other no matter how they feel about it. Maybe they’ll eventually implode on each other, or maybe it’s just a matter of time until they branch out and try to suck more people in, like that kid. Guess that’s for them to discover and for me not to worry about anymore. I think I’m finally starting to square this away. In my current view, my biggest mistake was forgetting the initial reason I stopped talking to them, because when I wrote that detailed post about it all I could think was: “Shit, and I went back for that? Why?” Maybe I should paste it into a separate document I can read whenever I start feeling wistful lol. Believe it or not I’m one of those insane people that actually loves public speaking lol, I just never get any opportunities now that I’m out of school. I think I’ve had more experience than I really needed with my family looking at me like I’ve grown a second head when I speak my mind; as a kid that kind of thing was straight up ruinous but now it just empowers me to push through when I feel like a confused idiot, haha! And next year assuming I can get my time and money in order I’ve got my eye on a place to train as an EMT and eventually a paramedic! I’m thinking about nursing school after that, but one step at a time! I think being a librarian would be neat but maybe a little too quiet for me :p I have a distant friend who works for the library a few towns over and they’re a whole lot calmer than I am lol!!

Just bumping you up - bear with a little longer!