Liar or not?

My husband bought my xmas gifts and he said not to look, they were in our bedroom when he put them away but I did and im sorry I did now I saw on the receipt there were two fragances but there was only one in the bag. I asked for perfume and he had bought one for our daughter but I couldn't see the other one. He didn't get loads of stuff so he wouldn't of left it in the shop I told him I looked at the receipt and there wasnt two fragrances in the bag and he said there was and then he went down stairs came back up and showed me the other one but it wasnt there when I looked and I now I think he as bought it for another woman and hidden it from me but because I told him about it being on the receipt but not in the bag he went down stairs to get it and pretended it was there all along. I wished now I had waited to see if he was going to give me perfume because then I would of known it was for another If i didnt get it. I felt like a woman from a film called love actually and she thinks shes going to get a necklace but gets a cd because her husband is cheating. i asked him on tthe kids lives if he was seeing anyone and he said no and he only wants me but wouldn't he say that to get out of the situation?

Ohhhhhh, sh*t. (And yep, I know the film scene you mean.) Yeah, you're not blind, are you. If you didn't see it there when you looked and it took him WALKING AWAY SOMEWHERE to produce it, then ...it's looking like a duck, walking like a duck, and quacking like a duck. Oh, god, poor you. And at Christmas of all times. :-( I've heard of lots of cheaters (men, usually) who swear (lie) on their kids lives. I believe it's tantamount to him asking you to swear on Captain Kirk's life: Either the particular man doesn't believe in superstition as much as women are apt to do or, 'desperate is as desperate does' ergo he lied on their lives rather than come clean. Just to check, though - because one suspect action doth not infidelity make: could it be that hiding place A wasn't clever enough for your daughter (in case she'd done a pressie hunt as well), meaning he thought to hide it in a more sneaky place?

PS: Do you have access to his bank and credit card statements so that you can look at his recent purchasing history? Also, have you noticed any other actions and behaviours of his that represent sudden change or uncharacteristic newness? E.g.: gym membership/new sport or wanting smaller meal portions/not eating as much; taking more care over his appearance than usual; suddenly liking a new kind of music or particular artist, especially one you'd never have guessed he'd have been into; turning his mobile phone off at night or walking out of the room to take calls on it; a suddenly cleaner car where before he'd let it get far dirtier; working late a lot and/or needing to just pop to the shops (on his own) at weekends or on evenings; being quieter than usual, wanting to seduce you less or make less of a meal of any session...that sort of thing? Anything, anything you can think of that isn't, you'd have thought, 'him'?

Also, has he been a bit ratty and critical with you lately? Or the opposite - suddenly more amorous without any seeming rhyme or reason?

The reason why I'm asking you to think of all of these things and situations, by the way, is because... You may not have 'discovered' cause for suspicion by looking in the bedroom. It may actually be that you gained CONFIRMATION, i.e. you were already background suspicious to begin with and the investigation was to try to make sense of that constant niggle. But first answer that question about daughter's greater intentness because you MAY just sense something is wrong/different, and that sense might be correct but might NOT involve cheating. Put it this way: a man who's hit mid-life crisis or the end of his helpless/ineffectual state-of-marriage tether can equally have an affair with his career, a flash new sportscar or his young, free and single mates, etc., etc. It doesn't automatically have to involve another woman.

Thankyou for replying. The perfume he got for my daughter he had already gave me to wrap so it. I can check his bank accounts and emails if I want but I never do but he could have a email I wouldn't know about and he could of paid cash for the perfume so it wouldn't show on the bank account. He is a sales man and goes to the office about twice a month and there is two women who work there one is married the other I dont know he told me. He as never bought gifts before for people he works for not that im 100% sure he as. We dont bother with my family and he only as a brother whom he hasnt seen in years so no family members to give the perfume too. He says he only wants me and for me to want him which ive told him I do but now every time he is on his phone laptop im wondering if there is someone else and its on my mind all the time now. He hasnt cut down on eating and I cant say ive noticed him making himself look nicer besides trimming his eyebrows. Its normally me that says to have sex which as been like that for a while. Its terrible living with this and its not a way to live having to check on someone and trying to find more evidence. He did say he will give me a divorce because i have always said i would give him one so he can he happy to be with someone else if hes not happy with me. He said I will be proved wrong he as never cheated on me.

As in travelling salesman? So what you're saying is, he'd already bought daughter's perfume prior to this latest shopping trip/receipt in the bag, meaning he in total had to have bought THREE of them but only two - yours and daughter's/the one you wrapped - materialised? WHEN did he say he'd give you a divorce? Just this week? And what did he state it in response to? And for how long has the sex initiator had to be you? Define 'a while'.

Yes he travels and might stay away once or twice a month. I was thinking he might of bought three perfumes altogether. I have mostly in the past said about divorcing when things have been up and down. I always say if you want a divorce if he is seeing someone else so he can be happy and I wont stand in his way. I like to have sex at least three times a week and I do say about having it more then him and we have been together 22 years married 18 and I think over these last couple of years its been me who always say about having it. He says sometimes hes tired or because hes getting older hes 48 which I think is an excuse.

See if he wanted to leave you he would have plainly told you so. More since you have already made it clear aplenty that you wouldn't stand in the way. From whatever you have said, I feel its only a suspicion you have carried with you from years. Try to get over that. It would be actually pushing him away from you. And about sex he may be right, when you age your desire for sex does decrease.

"I was thinking he might of bought three perfumes altogether." I'm not interested in 'think', I'm interested in 'KNOW FOR A FACT'. By evidence or logical deduction, how many bottles in total did you see PROOF of purchase or existence of? That you sound uncertain AND now admit it's you yourself who's in the past done the No-No of repeatedly mentioning the Big D tells me you're looking for a definite catalyst or a definite assurance - either or, just as long as you more clearly know WHERE YOU STAND. Because - do you know how utterly damaging it is to a relationship to keep wielding such a Sword of Damocles at a lover rather than contain yourself and your reactivity responses to the causal-issue topic itself? It's downright abusive (or counter-abusive, making two wrongs at a Dutch Auction on Opposites Day!). You do that enough times and they not only give up bothering to make any effort through seeing no point but start closely imagining life without you to point of nuts-and-bolts-day-in-day-out-ness..to the point of desensitization and adaptation! Once that kicks in, it's THEY who then turn around and call divorce time. And unlike the empty-threat-issuing sword-wielder, they MEAN it! "He says sometimes hes tired or because hes getting older hes 48 which I think is an excuse." Depends on the 48-year-old, actually, including other factors like how high their libido was to begin with at their sexual peak and whether the relationship itself or one's relationship with life has slid into a rut. I'm with Shivangi. You sound chronically insecure. Why? This? : "We dont bother with my family" Now I repeat: HOW MANY bottles FOR A FACT?

And WHY don't you bother with them?

I wrapped a bottle of perfume up for my daughter and there wasnt another one in the bag only the receipt showing two bottles. He said I was blind to of missed the one he got me but I know it was not there. Like i said he went down stairs then came back up looked in the bag and pulled the one he said he had got me so isnt it funny he had to go down stairs then all of a sudden it appears in the bag and when I looked it had a housecoat and a card in as well which werent there before. He as said he only bought two but it plays on my mind the perfume might of been for another woman. As for my family they are all out for themselves and dont care about me so I treat them the same.

Hi again! Yes, it damn well *is* funny. Plus, we now know for a fact he LIED about it having been in the bag all along. So here we have a pretty clear picture: - He's for years been failing to meet your standards and expectations; - you've gone from complaining to downright ultimatuming him; - neither has worked; - meanwhile you've become isolated from a supportive network thus vulnerable and (his perception) less likely to want to lose *him*, thereby making him feel indispensible to you; - he has a job that makes it wholly conducive to play away; - he seemingly has barely any sexual needs (curiouser and curiouser) as results in him not initiating sex any more; - his response to Why is that he's tired/feeling old, which you sense is just an excuse; - you get antsy for a reason you can't quite put your finger on whenever he's laptop-ing (probably his body language); - he's trimming his eyebrows (things that when unruly give away a man's age or make him look older); - when you say you'll give him a divorce he, surprisingly enough, basically replies 'fine' (!?) and adds that he's not cheating on you (which a cheater obviously would say anyway) - (and le piece de resistance) despite you weren't getting the instant agreement and support you were after, this HASN'T put you off maintaining your stance (sorry about that - had to be done), meaning, OH, YOU'RE SURE ALRIGHT! ...so now, hey-ho, you have every reason both pretty concrete and elusive but un-shiftable to suspect that the exclusively feminine set of gifts was not for you. It also appears that this 'whomever else' was going to get a housecoat (I take it you mean feminine dressing-gown type of robe) and gift/greeting card. Yup. I'm convinced, too. It bears all the classic hallmarks (I've seen them all; wish I could say I hadn't, but I have). And if he's buying her Xmas gifts then it's become emotional (lovers) rather than just sexual (free prostitute). I wouldn't say massively emotional, it's not diamonds or anything, is it. Could be just a sweetener come shut-her-up gesture. But still... You'd better get the name of a solicitor from amongst any divorcees in your social circle and arrange a free-of-charge consultation to see where you'd stand. The fact is, whether he's really having an affair or not is by-the-by. He refuses to try to improve the marriage with you and is making you FEEL cheated on. So that in itself is enough grounds to get a divorce or, as a potential bonus in the meantime, show him via a huge bucket of cold water to his face that you mean business this time. Keep me posted.

For all you know, he might have hid the perfume meant for you so that he can gift it to you with the card on X'mas! Unless you get a good proof of another woman's presence in his life, do not ruin your relationship. The signs of cheating are him talking out of your ear shot secretly with someone. Secretly messaging someone. Using the phone at mid night secretly. Acting fishy with emails, calls etc. Have you seen any of these signs?

Then why not just ADMIT he moved the bottle from her pressie hunting expeditions i.e. the bag rather than insisting it was there all along AFTER HAVING SEEMINGLY NEEDLESSLY POPPED DOWNSTAIRS, when crystal clearly IT WASN'T? That's one of the things that SHELLXXX *is* perfectly clear about. It was a bag, not bloody Narnia. See if you can make sense of that with anything logical or plausible. Believe you me, I tried AND FAILED!

...although I should add, apart from this: Deliberately winding her up to *suspect* he's cheating *without* ample evidence to feel sure and justified in confronting or dumping him, despite he actually isn't, as a way of manipulating more whatever out of her (attention, adulation, cessation of tendency to complain...). Plenty of manipulative types try that one. But even IF, it STILL points to a problem of unacceptability, Houston.

Also want to make clear (sorry, was pushed for time yesterday): You don't have to mention a THING to husband at this stage anyway, hence no danger of ruining anything. But fore-warned is fore-armed. Knowing where you'd stand "if" will remove those unrealistic worries and fears that all too typically hold one back and render one's tone of voice more bluff-like when it comes to putting your foot down and insisting on proper, honest and lengthy talks (or agreeing to going to counselling) "or it's no dice".

He still says the perfume was there in the bag no matter how many times I say it wasnt. A week before xmas he went on the works xmas party which was a meal and a dance, no wives, husbands or boyfriends were invited according to him. I had been arguing the day he was going to the office party and he had texted me around 6pm saying he knows he as to do things for me. I was angry and was sending him nasty texts and I even told him I felt so low I didn't want to live. He didnt call to say dont talk like that or dont be thinking of that, he just texted to say the kids need me. If he had been saying to me he didn't want to live I would of rang him so it killed me inside to know I wasn't even worth a phone call. I rang him at 1 in the morning and he didn't answer. He as two phones, a works one and one he uses to call/ text the kids and me. He said he didnt hear his works one as he was a sleep and he had drank two whiskeys and four bottles lager. He always keeps the phone next to the bed so I thought it seemed strange he didn't hear it and thought was he lying, the other phone he said the battery went dead. All I think now is he was with someone and thats why he didn't answer his phone or he had it on silent cos someone was with him he denies this and denies he danced with any of the three women there. Theres a woman who is married and he said shes 45 and a younger girl and older woman too. I think he might like one of the women and I feel it might he the 45 year old even thou she's married according to him. Not once as he ever said shes over weight and as big teeth in the 8 months hes been there but now he says she is these things. He met a girl in the office before he met me when he worked for a small company like hes working in now and I think he cheated on me on the works night out with this 45 year old who works in the office and that's why he didn't answer his phone and got the perfume for her. I said the only way I would know is to call the office and ask but she would deny it anyway if she did cheat with him Do I cheat on him to get him back as what goes around comes around? It's playing on my mind why he didnt answer his phone and if he bought perfume for this woman or another

After reading this thread, I have to join in the chorus of - Why are you still dancing around this? You make repeated empty threats about divorce and that's backfired on you, hasn't it? You've made threats like that and then expect that he's going to come at your dramatic call of "wanting to end it all"? Seems pretty clear to me, and you, is that if he isn't cheating, (which, in my opinion, he likely is and may have been all along, dunno and won't speculate on that, other than following the ol' connect the dots thing) what is *certainly* happening is manipulation to an abusive degree. And your own acceptance of that treatment, which is your own responsibility and *not* his. We teach people how to treat us, and you've taught him that you have no backbone. It's time to S**t or get off the pot, dear. As difficult as it may be - either accept that he's abusive (and likely cheating) and live this life or do not accept it and DO something. I agree with the consultation with a divorce lawyer. It's time to put your money where your mouth is. Or have you been bluffing? And then being surprised when your bluff is called. Yes, his behavior is absolute crap, but you know what? So is accepting that kind of treatment. You both deserve better than this - whether that means healing together, or apart. Stand and be true. He sure isn't.

Tom's right, you know, Sky. (Why have you changed your alias?) And so are you, Sky. I mean, what are the odds of him not hearing a phone that's right by his earhole? And, worse, what are the odds of the battery on the other simultaneously having been dead? But you're missing an even bigger clue - the mark of a liar. Here's the typical example I always use: "I'm sorry I didn't ring you but I was in hospital with all my fingers on both hands having been broken, meaning I couldn't dial, and anyway its battery was dead". I'm sorry, but if you can't dial a phone then what ruddy difference does it make if you have workable fingers or not?! Now hear HIS version: I didn't hear mobile A because I was too deeply asleep and I couldn't hear mobile B because the battery was dead. What difference does it make if the second phone's battery was dead or not? GOTTIM!!!!! He lied. Fact! Certainly that would be acceptable as hard evidence in a court of law, Sky. So WHY did he lie? Because he didn't want any more 'aggro'? Aggro or not, ultimatums in the past or not - you do not take chances when someone's mentioned the S word to you only hours beforehand. After all, 'the kids need you'! So EITHER he doesn't give a sh*t about the kids enough (typical cheating mentality) to want to be sure-sure-sure you're NOT actually going to top yourself (and just said that for something dismissive to say in order to end the conversation and get off the phone *or* he's heard you make that threat one too many times before. Which, Sky? And now another typical cheater behaviour you've missed or wouldn't really be sure about without prior knowledge/experience: TWO PHONES! One for the (cough!) office and one for the kids and you. No likelihood of making a dialling error and saying, 'Hi, sexy!' to you instead of the mistress (common error committed by the subconscious's guilt-driven need to be found out whilst the conscious mind is busy/distracted enough to be out of the way). Oh COME ON, HE'S SO CHEATING! You don't need material evidence alone like blood on a knife to know someone's guilty. You only need that if you need a legal, court sanctioning. "Stand and be true. He sure isn't." Tom said it! Not only do you deserve better than this but you can too laughably easily GET better than this if only you realised it and realised how relatively easy it is! Walk me through all your fears of going to see a solicitor or divorcing/being divorced, come on. Let's kick those 'paper roses' to the kerb where they belong.

Yes i am skysky123 i have been so down in the past thst i have said i didnt want to live and have always said i wouldnt do anything stupid because of the kids so maybe hes heard so many times before thats why hes not been bothered to take me seriously and proved it by not calling me. I have been to a solicitor in the past about divorce and he knew i did and i didnt proceed. i think part of me didn't really want it and because i was thinking of our children breaking up the family home. I now see how stupid i am about the two phones. He as always said he doesnt like using the works phone thats why he uses the other one. He keeps them both on the kitchen table and i have checked them and he as said i can check them anytime i want because hes not doing anything but a couple of weeks back i was coming downstairs and it seemed quiet then when he heard me he got off his phone because i heard him putting it down, he said he had just finished being on it and he didnt hear me come down. To not hear his works phone when any other person would just shows that either1, he didht want anymore aggro from me or he was in bed with a woman. He said he had to borrow an inhaler from one of the men because he was chesty and hen he went to bed and didnt hear my calls. He said he went to bed at 12 30 i rang at 1am so i thought it was very quick to go to sleep and not hear the phone. I said i could ring the office and ask the women did he cheat with one of them and he said to go ahead and do it, should i? I did do this in the past and he said he felt a fool and the boss called him in wondering why i had rung and accussed him if cheating with one of the office women. He went to germany in September for five days and we had argued and he said to have the week apart and to think about things, not once did he ask about me to the children when he texted them which he didnt texted much anyway to them and he only texted me on the day he was coming home to say, i want yo come home to see you and the kids and i know it was only because he had no where to go. He didn't care when he was away because he was looking after himself and was away but because he had to come back he got intouch and it hurt me deeply because he was bothered when he was far away and i was out of site out of mind.

Whoah, and out it finally pours!!!! (Feel a tiny bit better now? Emphasis on 'tiny', obviously.) Yes, your threat, i.e. DESPERATE PLEA, became meaningless through repetition and no consequence. HOWEVER, that's not the point, is it. What YOU'RE saying is you feel that beside-yourself miserable that switching yourself off is the only remedy to stop the agony that you can see open to you and sod the toll fee of no On Again switch. But it's not the only remedy, is it. Not when there's separation and/or divorce. Wouldn't kill a desperately unhappy marriage because of the kids either, would you. You are so-so-so wrong and like most women in your horrid position, don't even realise it. Kids can take anything, they're bloody resilient, WAY tougher than us worn-downs. They grow up in SPITE of us, not because of us! What decides whether kids come out of that wash soiled or not is how you (and dad) ensure to handle it. You neither treat them like idiots with zero need to know why (it's their whole life as they thought they'd always know it, course they need to know!) nor like grown adults who are mini you/his mini wives who somehow need to know by whatever degree what a pr*ck he makes as a *husband* the minute there's some emotional problem he'd rather not bother with. Even if he's not perfectly ideal as a dad, "a" dad is better than no dad/a dad who doesn't seem to want to know you. Remember that, ensure your kids see their dad as much as humanly possible, and research the other ways in which to allow kids to predominantly see the positive sides (*everything* has a positive side and bonuses, even negative experiences benefit by making you stronger). Oh, and don't curl up in a sobbing ball until all the kid chores are done for the day. Or by all means cry in front of them if you really can't help it but then stop after an appropriate time, smile and say, 'Haah, that's better, nothing like a good cry' as you then resume the acting role of strong, sorted, capable protector/boss/mum. They just need to know they're at all times SAFE and SWADDLED, now and for as long as need be. What's worse is kids daily getting reinforced ideas that "this is how a good marriage looks and sounds and works like" - monkey please see and monkey please as later adults do, as per usual. They should see you and he almost constantly cuddling, smiling, playing, snogging, doing considerate things for each other, viewing each other as the most all-round attractive, first choice adult person in the world, AND should see you fight and then immediately afterwards co-fix and make up like adults and the relationship UPGRADED thanks to the confrontation. And they need to have the confidence to never stay and settle to a degree that is not healthy or acceptable just because the only remedy remaining is separation and/or divorce. Love in a locked cage is not love, it's 'may as well since I'm stuck here captive'. But neither is the locked cage the problem. Some people CHOOSE to be in a cage! In which case it's not a cage but an exclusive love-nest mostly locked to keep unwanted interruptions OUT (diff/all the diff). Back to the details: just doesn't (note) LIKE using the phone he could use, not isn't allowed. Yes, course you can check them any time. It's easier to delete messages and call logs before you plonk the phone on the family table than avoid mis-dialling when busy/distracted. Or else, as afore-suppositioned, he's Sword of Damoclese-ing *you* - making you *believe* he's having an affair. Frankly, that is WORSE than actually having one because it's cold, calculated mental cruelty as opposed to 'Sh*t, I pressed my tongue onto an iceberg and before I knew it it was stuck and I can't get it free unless I dare lose its whole surface!' (like they didn't really KNOW that you shouldn't ever lick an iceberg). But you CAN delude yourself you've forgotten that precaution whereas you CAN'T "whoopsie-daisy" mount a terror campaign that includes concentrated, machinated behaviours and wordage, i.e. a conscious acting job OR behave in ways that AFFECT like one without doing diddly squat to put a stop to it as befits a horrorifiedly, realisatory reaction. So from that point of view, I bloody well hope he IS having an affair, actually. Or he's a wolf only now throwing off his sheep's clothing - or a sheep who's thrown ON wolf's clothing for whatever reason/s - and needs serious therapy. Whatever. Who could even watch a STRANGER in such obvious agony at their hand and do nothing about it! "but a couple of weeks back i was coming downstairs and it seemed quiet then when he heard me he got off his phone because i heard him putting it down, he said he had just finished being on it and he didnt hear me come down." Oh, so there WAS more compelling evidence! I bloody knew it. And - yeah, yoooou silly billy, IT WAS IN THE BAAAAG...ALL THE TIIIIIME. So now according to him, you're deaf as well as blind and stupid. Pff. Not hear the phone. WHO COULD RISK NOT TAKING A SUICIDE THREAT SERIOUSLY AND MANAGE TO FALL ASLEEP- NAY, FEEL LIKE PARTYING, IN THE FIRST PLACE? Who truly kids themselves that all suicidals are actually one personality shared amongst a multitude of bodies whom as such make no prior vocalised warnings or just the one-off warning cry?! What about dying Version 2 where you have a nervous breakdown and go fruit loopy? You're not doing it for FUN, are you... it's not some great giggle to you. Jesus wept! He thinks you're helpless against doing anything about this, be it suicide or divorce; he thinks you're genuinely trapped into just taking it. It's obvious. Too many empty ultimatums, definitely (with a shot of pompous arrogance + superiority complex + denseness (all his) thrown in). "I said i could ring the office and ask the women did he cheat with one of them and he said to go ahead and do it, should i?" I asked the liar if she was lying and she said, No. What do you mean, should you, you 'nana. That was a really dumb, beneath-your-intelligence thing to say so obviously you're in DefCon1 right now, hardly able to think straight. For starters, you jeopardise his job and bang goes your future-potential, adequate spousal and kid maintenance! Missus, you need to get OUT of this torture zone or you're going to start climbing the walls (equally potentially harmful for your kidlets, worse than two homes!). Tell him you want a formal Separation 2 months minimum (so that you can sufficiently calm down, gain perspective/clarity and regain strength), 6 months maximum with a mutually agreed talks/negotiations deadline. If he refuses, go back to the solicitor, have the refresher consultation, and issue the petition. There is no law in this Western world preventing individuals who've divorced each other from latter marrying again legally or sans paper if they so wish. NONE. And it happens. Nothing is irreversible (except for suicide and, for a long while, a stay in a mental institution). I mean, reading everything you're saying - CLEARLY this guy doesn't even like you, never mind love you. He's made you feel like in his eyes you're sh*t on his shoe, hasn't he, eh? Oh, he has somewhere to go, alright. But not without having to shell out spondoolichs as well as leaving half "his" lifelong worked-for wealth and assets behind including "his" house (but sod having a live in cook, nanny, cleaner and bottle-washer). So, yes, he waited until the trip (or jolly?) was at an end, already under his belt - noted. There can be no other reason why he stays when he demonstrates 100% that he doesn't care whether you - either his wife and lover or mother to his kids or cook/cleaner/etc. or just FRIEND/co-traveller, just person-not-him with feelings - actually prove his arrogance wrong and jump off the nearest cliff. Don't you DARE top yourself in preference to bearing what is only TEMPORARY pain, do you hear me? Did you top yourself during childbirth? No, you didn't. Embrace the pain because it's your ticket to eventual and NOT that far off Happyville. Another bundle of joy, just a far bigger, hairier one (;-)), awaits. All good things come to those who wait (in the right place). But first you have to cease being a masochist and taking all those missiles to your sense of self-worth and basic/normal peace of mind. I can't force you out of the warzone-torture-chamber, only you can. Nothing is irreversible, there's no nightmare awaiting. You're IN the nightmare, refusing to wake up to peace and quiet. Do you understand? (Well done to Tom for making you finally empty your other pocket onto the table. Hearing a man agree rather than just women all the time, was it? In that case, Tom, don't go anywhere, will you.)

Due to the fact that you both seem reluctant to physically leave the family (which is a GOOD thing) although, imo you have BOTH left it emotionally, and he *likely* has physically (I'm mush less inclined to use (at best) speculation (reading into things, drawing "absolute" conclusions from dot-connection instead of hard evidence like catching someone in the act) I amend my suggestion of seeing a divorce lawyer to that of seeing a couples therapist. Discover what's kept you both here. Communicate your needs to one another, how you've felt them unmet, and what you need met. This will go a very long way in getting you both off this ridiculous fence riding you've equally become so accustomed to.

Yes, if he'll agree to ATTENDING, Tom. But, irrespective of whether the object is to work themselves back into a proper marriage or be advised to part and how to as maturely and as painlessly as poss, how realistic a likelihood IS his agreeing when this is a man who can't even care enough to check she's NOT doing something stupid this time and even just knowing his wife's that incredibly upset, could straight afterwards party and then [a] sleep like a baby or [b] pretend he was? That's my suspicion, you see. If he patently cares so little already then... It's not your reservations of judgement or suggestions, Tom, they're stellar. It's HIM and what there is (*isn't*) to work with. Sky's not left it emotionally. Amongst other signs, not a single carriage-return in her post - couldn't occur to her, and, look: "If he had been saying to me he didn't want to live I would of rang him so it killed me inside to know I wasn't even worth a phone call. I rang him at 1 in the morning and he didn't answer." 1am. Killed me inside. But, hey. If you don't ask, you don't get and all that so by all means ask him.

"But you CAN delude yourself you've forgotten that precaution whereas you CAN'T "whoopsie-daisy" mount a terror campaign that includes concentrated, machinated behaviours and wordage, i.e. a conscious acting job OR behave in ways that AFFECT like one without doing diddly squat to put a stop to it as befits a horrorifiedly, realisatory reaction. So from that point of view, I bloody well hope he IS having an affair, actually. Or he's a wolf only now throwing off his sheep's clothing - or a sheep who's thrown ON wolf's clothing for whatever reason/s - and needs serious therapy." - Much more eloquently put than my "this is manipulation to an abusive degree." Amen, sister!! "But first you have to cease being a masochist and taking all those missiles to your sense of self-worth and basic/normal peace of mind." Huzzah! (Exactly why I *like* and see the strength in our differences of opinion/offering, Soul, and would never be so unproductive as to tell you you're "wrong" or "daft", but respect your opinion, and try to understand how/why you got to where you did, and then offer my agreement/dissent. I'm as invested in learning from other viewpoints as I am offering my own. After all, we're hearing only one side of any of these stories. I appreciate you finally (even when I disagree with you, which is so rare, that I was able to dismiss your veiled insults until you were able to) respecting my opinions and how in our differences, we actually offer a very broad - and therefore more helpful perspective. Go team! Now that I have your respect, I can finally engage in that delightful arm-wrestling you've previously referred to, knowing that you'll actually listen to it whether you agree or not. Let the fun begin!) Sincerely, Your New Neighbor

"Yes, if he'll agree to ATTENDING, Tom" - Obviously. But it's a start, no? He hasn't just left her either. There's a reason and it's worth exploring. If he isn't willing to go to therapy, then back to plan A. "how realistic a likelihood IS his agreeing when this is a man who can't even care enough ..." Realistic enough to *at least pose the question of if he's willing to go to therapy. If the man is dealing with a woman who oscillates between threating divorce and suicide, he'd probably have to build up some sturdy defenses against that. One possibility being - avoidance. I respect your suspicion, just offering a broader viewpoint - namely, *He hasn't left the family - and she is a part of that family* Obviously they have serious issues, but you have to start somewhere to resolve them. "If he had been saying to me he didn't want to live I would of rang him so it killed me inside to know I wasn't even worth a phone call. I rang him at 1 in the morning and he didn't answer." - Yeah because he's never done it before. "But, hey. If you don't ask, you don't get and all that so by all means ask him." - Precisely. :)

(Quietly puts Soul's cart back *behind* her horse - ;))

("...when I disagree with you, which is so rare,..." Obvious typo - should have read AGREE is so rare. Apologies for the rapid-fire many posts.) Sky, I hope that you're able to sift through all of this and glean something. Check back in with questions and offerings, more info, etc. Let us know where you agree and disagree and know that the intention is to assist you as best we can.

It hurt when I read what you said about him still going to the party and not being bothered about me telling him I didnt want to live he didnt even texted the kids to see if everything was ok with me. After thinking about everything and realizing how stupid ive been ive decided to divorce him. I never thought it would come to this. We argued last night and he went out for over an hour and straight away I thought he was probably talking to a woman thats why he went out so I couldn't hear and know i cant live like this always thinking is he cheating and lying to me. He said quite alot of people have two phones, I asked him to name them and he couldn't. He said he hasnt been told he cant use his works one but he uses the other one because thats his phone.

"...and know i cant live like this always thinking is he cheating and lying to me..." - Agreed! You're always *thinking* he's lying and cheating on you. Which I stand firm may or may not be the *truth.* I have two phones. At one point in the past, I had 3 (Consulting work - it was easier to organize what the call was about by which phone was ringing)! And have never used them inappropriately. One personal phone and two professional ones. It's much easier being back to two phones! One professional and one work phone. I have never and will never use either of my phones to cheat. Maybe he hasn't either, and is tired of being accused of something that he may or may not be doing. Maybe he IS cheating! The point is, I don't know - and neither do you. Just sayin'

Do you want this relationship to work or not? Are you just done with it all and over it? Talk to someone - whether it's a divorce lawyer or a couples therapist, but get some objective input in real life. Preferably for the BOTH of you to share your sides of the story to who can help you both get out of your own heads to see the picture clearly. You both are emotional and angry - That's actually a *good* sign, but the arguing isn't constructive. If you didn't care about him or the relationship, you'd be a lot more apathetic, is my point. And so would he. It's worth putting down your weapons for a two hour consultation to at least explore what the reality for you both is before just throwing in the towel, right? Your leap to divorce lawyer seems to me you wanting to escape pain - that may or may not even be based on what's happening in reality. Take the time to *know* what's happening. If he is unwilling to see someone with you, and be honest in that conversation, then you'll have an answer of sorts from him, right? You are worth the time it takes to do this. I'm not asking you to do anything for him!! Do it because YOU deserve that time and patience, even if and when it is extremely uncomfortable.

"One professional and one work phone." - I meant one personal and one work phone! Sorry for any confusion

"We argued last night and he went out for over an hour and straight away I thought he was probably talking to a woman thats why he went out..." He was *trying* to talk to you, you were *trying* to talk to him. Neither of you were able to listen well, and that made it become an argument. You're both still engaged here in this. He may have left because at a point, one realizes that a conversation has become an argument that is non-productive. The best thing *to do* when that happens is to disengage from it!! Immediately your head went to thinking he went to another woman. You do not know what he did you can only ask him, and either believe what he tells you or not. I can't know if he's telling you the truth or not, and no one else here can either. You are an active participant in creating this dynamic. Recognizing your role will help you a LONG way on the road to understanding where he's coming from, and vice versa.

In case it isn't obvious, the ways I see you possibly participating in creating the dynamic are repeated accusations of cheating and repeated threats of divorce, to name two. If you look, and are willing to be honest with yourself, it's likely you'll find many more. Instead of blaming him for all the things he's done wrong and what he needs to do to change to fix it - try this exercise - Commit to one hour of self-reflection. During this hour you'll look ONLY at your own thoughts and actions. You'll recognize and name areas where you could have chosen more wisely. Could have trusted more, could have been more assertive, etc. This will create space from the "I'm a victim" identification. He *clearly* has his own s**t to own, but during this hour, *you* look only at *you* You BOTH have created the dynamic. Take some interest in your role and it will help you sort through you identification. Thusly begins the ability to be an active listener and engage in communication rather than argumentation.

Tom, In terms of this, Sky's thread: As this is far more grave and distressing a situation (waking nightmare, actually) than problems and break-ups between unmarried, childless couples, and as adviser teamwork (were I to need it) relies on agreement-heaviness as opposed to extensive or repeat debate over crucial basics, essentials and fundamentals or what constitutes such, I think it'll probably be too messy as well as too confusing and upsetting for Sky if I were to team up with you, if you don't mind? I'm referring, for example, to your demonstrating a belief that having two mobile phones could plausibly support innocence in spite of all other tangible and intellectual considerations, not to mention reasonably indisputable evidence already established (i.e. his lie about the gift and inappropriately non-empathetic attitudes towards his wife and mother of his children). I should perhaps also point out that when I said Sky might take comfort in hearing a man agreeing with her, I did expect you to appreciate the operative phrase: agreeing with whatever she has shown she's already quite clear and decided over, where reasonable, with or without anyone else's opinion. This is especially important in light of her having no close family support, including for too distressingly long now, her own husband, along with the fact that she, like the majority of forum visitors, may not want to seek outside help (in which case repetition would be futile). As I'd have hoped anyone helping would be aware, either theoretically or through here witnessing its demonstration in motion recounted: two of the most common psychological characteristics of an adulterer are to internally Demonise then Gaslight their victim. Even alone (- rarely), these cause confusion and distress enough. Therefore, were you and/or I to crowd this thread with debate messages wholly liable to be ongoing (let alone inappropriate bantering) it would be deemed, amongst other things, grossly insensitive to this lady and her dreadful situation. Do feel free if you wish to continue your own input, obviously, if you can tell Sky is appreciative. This is a forum after all. But I think it would be best for all concerned, Sky first and foremost, if I were to work alone and independently as usual on this one. I hope this won't cause any bad feeling, considering we yesterday reached a better personal understanding over on PT's thread. No doubt chat to you anon whenever safely appropriate to do so back on hers or SB's threads (or wherever else). :-)

Sky, "It hurt when I read what you said about him still going to the party and not being bothered about me telling him I didnt want to live" I take it you mean, it hurt to hear me agree with you and extrapolate forwards and backwards towards the finer details contained in the event? Or do you mean, because you hadn't yet considered the wider and deeper implications and logistics (or had, but they'd not really hit you until now)? "he didnt even texted the kids to see if everything was ok with me." I agree that's cause for deep concern. He at least could have summoned the assistance of a friend or relative of yours, that would have been something. Sky, I know how deeply it hurts, whether cheating's involved or not. I know it's a mindf**k and a case of "invasion of the body snatchers", as in, Who on earth are you and what have you done with the man I married?! But it was bound to come to a head at some point, the fact that this man isn't behaving like a husband who loves his wife, or who, where having possibly only temporarily lost love for his wife, possesses any readiness, willingness or ability when it comes to choosing to sit her down and explore ways of sorting it out towards regaining her trust and peace of mind (and obviously, his own happy home life). All men KNOW that if an already well-detectably unhappily married wife finds whatever cause to suspect he's cheating on her, it's liable to tip her into more decisive action than before, as could highly likely include demanding a divorce. For that reason alone, any man with all his faculties intact should attend to the situation in whatever way doesn't LET her persist in that leaning. This shows me he's just not thinking about how you feel or about anything beyond the here and now. "After thinking about everything and realizing how stupid ive been ive decided to divorce him. I never thought it would come to this. We argued last night and he went out for over an hour and straight away I thought he was probably talking to a woman thats why he went out so I couldn't hear and know i cant live like this always thinking is he cheating and lying to me. He said quite alot of people have two phones, I asked him to name them and he couldn't. He said he hasnt been told he cant use his works one but he uses the other one because thats his phone." No-one ever does think it'll come to this. If they did they'd never dare marry in the first place. But you seem to have jumped ahead to where you're practically already divorced. Is that because of the suspected cheating aspect or more because of his continually unsympathetic attitude and behaviour? Whichever - have you not considered the suggested precursor of demanding a formal separation? I think you'd find it would put you in a much better position for knowing - and more calmly - what's to be done or what you want to do next. You're no the one who's been stupid, though. What's stupid about expecting to still trust your husband, thereby finding it hard to adjust that tendency to suit an unprepared-for development or extent of development into sharper relief, and needing time to get your head around it all? Don't be so hard on yourself, it's neither fair nor realistic and it's certainly not productive. Questions (and please retain the numbering): 1. Where did he go, did he say? I take it he drove? 2. He could have wanted to be on his own or he could have taken that long to discuss his concerns with a mistress or equally some other perfectly benign individual. Does he have friends or relatives he might confide in? 3. Has he ever driven off or for that long before? (I presume neither, by the fact of and way you mentioned it.) 4. Did you mention your suspicions in that heated discussion? If you could provide the details of what was actually said and discussed, including right before he stormed out as well as what was said and done (or not done that usually is) on his return, that would help mightily. 5. Regarding the two phones, I've addressed that point in the above message for Tom. But was he trying to say lots of people he knows or knows of personally have two phones, or just meant people in the general sense? 6. Since he first got his work mobile, has he ever used it to call you or the kids, or for any personal reasons? 7. Did he get given that phone the minute he started that sales rep job? I must admit, since he's already admitted he has two voluntarily, I'd have thought he could give you a good reason why he thought it necessary considering doing so was never demanded of him by his boss or you, or anybody. 8. He hasn't ever said WHY he prefers not to use the company bought phone with its presumably free(?) calls. Correct? 9. And I take it his work phone features separate ring-tones per known caller? 10. Does he with either phone get a paper or online phonebill with made and/or received calls itemised in list format? Or are they 'pay as you go'?

Sky: I'm incredibly sorry you're navigating this very painful experience, and hope you're able to derive as much assistance as possible from this forum along the way. Sky and Soul,: "agreeing with whatever she has shown she's already quite clear and decided over, where reasonable, with or without anyone else's opinion. This is especially important in light of her having no close family support, including for too distressingly long now, her own husband, along with the fact that she, like the majority of forum visitors, may not want to seek outside help (in which case repetition would be futile)" --- I have done this to the absolute best of my ability. I refuse to consider anything of importance futile, no matter how often I have to repeat it. Our definitions of the word "reasonable" may be little different, though, so in the interest of not inundating Sky with conflicting viewpoints, I will certainly continue following the thread without offering, thereby continuing to make myself available should She be interested in my viewpoint as well as yours. Best to you both and never give up on yourself, Sky. Tom

Tom, you've clearly misconstrued again. Let me try to make it clearer one last time with a Read Only post. 1. I wouldn't ever suggest counselling per se is futile, I'm saying only if a person's unwilling - "IN WHICH CASE repetition would be futile". However, that in this particular case Sky's not responded to any of the prior suggestions made by Susie, me and now you (still automatically reiterating themselves in B&W via re-reads) indicates she doesn't want to or isn't ready yet - either individually over the is he/isn't he cheating aspect or jointly if it came to light he definitely had (because for many, would be a permanent deal-breaker). Plus, I think anyone in the know would deem it reasonable to doubt her husband will agree to joint counselling because [1] he won't entertain proper discussion with his own wife, not even when she makes THE most desperate possible appeals to his better nature (as you yourself noted) and, [2] when just 'forced' to, obviously failed to cooperate or put paid to Sky's suspicions with adequate reassurances, which then causes frustration as leads to heated-ness (again, typically characteristic scenarios). IMO, if their marriage being in difficulty was contained exclusively to inter-personal problems between the two of them and he wanted to save his marriage, it's again reasonable to suppose he'd welcome all the help he could get. But if he's having an affair, like she believes, which he wishes to keep secret, its yet again reasonable to suppose he'd not want to put himself into an even gently interrogative situation. 2. That you stop now was not what I was suggesting. It was to continue posting if you wanted to but [1] not with me any more on this thread, and that [2] for the sake of higher etiquette befitting a woman being demonstrably liable to fragility (- having more than once felt beside herself enough to threaten suicide), the end decision communicated in whatever manner or form (whether at all) should be Sky's, not mine or anyone else's. Indeed, it's quite possible Sky could cease responding to me. 3. Furthermore, conflicting viewpoints are par for the forum course. It's endless debates or asides between members/advisers or in effect arguing over and over with Sky herself which could make it messy or confusing/distressing. Hope that finally clears it up? Again, catch you later elsewhere. :-)

Hello, I am the husband involved in all of this and my wife has told where she has been posting the problem. Having read though all of the postings and what my wife has put, I felt the need to put my side and let you know what has been happening. The first thing that strikes me, is that you all seem to think you know me and I have never felt so let down before. I know what I bought for my wife and my daughter and I can also categorically confirm that I am no cheat unlike my wife, but I will let her tell you about that. And before you ask, I have got evidence and not used a film fantasy to build a case. I love my wife very much and have done since the day I met her, unfortunately she has never loved me in the same vein. I have never, ever cheated on her. I have made mistakes, she found I had looked at porn and I stopped, she found that I had put my details into a dating website - but this was because I thought she had gone back to seeing a man she had an affair with. Since that happened I have always made sure I get evidence to back up my claims and if I cant, then keep my own counsel on the matter. I liked the comment about looking after myself, yes I do shave my eyebrows, I shave the little hairs that men get in their ears after certain age. However, I do this because I think it looks horrible, I want to look okay for my wife (I am no George Clooney either - I know I am not much) but also as I am a Sales Manager, I have to make sure I am clean, presentable and this is important to me. Now for the perfume, I only bought two; both at the same time at the same shop and directly after I had spoken to my wife on the phone to confirm the right perfume for our daughter. I will be honest, I thought the perfume for my wife was in the case and if I am wrong then fair enough but I will reiterate until my dying day that I only bought two. I have had for at least 20 years these accusations thrown at me, she has contacted people I worked with and been told that nothing is going on but will not accept it. I do acknowledge, that in my type of job, I could easily play away but i don't and I do not stay away once or twice a month as she states. Up until May last year I was in a terrible job that had me covering the whole of the UK, I could have stayed away once or twice a WEEK!! never mind a month but I didn't. I only stayed away when I had to be with colleagues. Now in my new job, I stayed away on an induction course when I started in May for 4 days, then a training course in Germany for five days and one other night after that. This coming year I will not be away as much as that as I can cover my area (which is Southern UK, south of the M4) easily from home. Here is a new start to things. We had been having a terrible time since last Thursday as you know, when my wife started all of a sudden about the perfume, my works night away for Christmas etc. This came totally out of the blue. This carried on until Saturday when we were on the verge of saying that divorce was next - even I said it at one point. However, we got back on track on Sunday, went out for a day out and agreed that we would out Monday night for a meal and the cinema. And yes, we have had sex on several occasions since getting back to normal. This morning I said to my wife "Are we still going to the cinema tonight? Because I fancy going and I have an early start tomorrow to go to London" Well after that she started saying that I wasn't interested and that my job takes precedence over going out but I did't day that at all!!!!! It was just an off the cuff comment about how I was planning my week ahead. So what I am trying to say, that I try my best to make our relationship work, money is getting better slowly but surely and I want to work at it but my wife doesn't and never has. And I feel rejected, dejected and so, so tired. If I walked in with a wheelbarrow full of money, did all that she says; she would still find fault with me. Thanks for reading.

He said, did I still want to go to the cinema tonight and that he had a early start tomorrow. I said of course I did and that we hadnt been out properly for awhile and it made me feel he didn't want to go because he had to be up early and like going out didn't matter because everything is put on hold because hes got an early start. When he went to Germany for 5 days he wouldn't of said to his boss , oh I cant go for a meal with everyone because im up early tomorrow training, no he bloody wouldnt of. I just feel like his job is more important and I know it pays the bills and he as to be up extra early some days but im important as well and I need him to realise this but I dont think he does.yes I admit I have cheated and I think I have done it because I have thought he as cheated on me and the porn really hurt me and knocked my confidence like when I caught him masurbating and I was upstairs in bed and he could of had me. He once got a text on his phone from a girl saying she was back off holiday and he said it was to do with another man who used to have the works phone before he took over and he had a number on his phone he got from a magazine to text women, he had a reply from a swingers site but he denies he went on that and said his email account was hacked. I think when I had the kids he didn't see me as his lover anymore and wanted someone else. I cheated because I need to feel im attractive and someone wants me

Oh, you're very welcome, STUMPED. (And Shell/Sky your latest is likewise noted.) I found it highly usefully revealing, assuming you really are her husband and this whole thread not just some sick joke cooked up by two bored college kids, of course, with this meant to be its final flourish. Forum advisers constantly find their kindness and generosity abused in such ways, so I can be forgiving for it occurring to me. However, for the sake of this exercise, I'll extend the same courtesy I did towards your wife in assuming not. Frankly, sir, after reading all of that, I now don't just pity you as well as your wife but the state of today's so-called adult society. If that post was meant to act as a defense case, then... ever heard of the expression, Hoisted by his own petard? You have obviously managed to convince yourself the problem is all hers - for not, by your estimation (whatever that's worth), loving you in the right way(s). Unfortunately, as I say, your exercise has backfired because here we see by your own admission all the ways in which you do not behave like what is widely construed to be in loving husbandly ways considered conducive to a healthy, happy marriage. Quite the opposite. Therefore, you do not love *her* and behave in the right ways, either. For example, habitually not-just watching but masturbating to porn when married and ones wife is *not* unavailable, particularly she knows about it (for whatever length of time prior to confrontation) and finds it insulting or upsetting, is one foot placed on the thin end of the wedge-shaped path of - not 'to' - 'OF' adultery. Any addiction is bound to increase as desensitization inevitably kicks in, it's basic human nature. FYI, many adulterers start off watching porn. It's cheating at that thinner end through the fact it is you donating/extending towards other women the mental and sexual courtesies, privileges and rights meant to belong *exclusively* to ones spouse. That the women concerned in your known case are 'virtual' is neither here nor there. The fact remains, that rather than devoting your *entire* sexuality to your spouse, you are for no good or justifiable reason letting other women arouse you, entering into a sexual act with them, 'in your presence' despite at arm's length, and in direct response to them (if not vice-versa). It therefore doesn't count as monogamy ("forsaking all others"). Furthermore, if one's wife finds out about it, that you then cease is immaterial. Too late. As you've just heard, it tacitly places mental pressure onto her to have to competitively sexually conform to the exact same style and standard, and effects as a gross personal slight. Further, if you did it in secret you were guilty of doing what's known in the trade as denying her the emotional knowledge to which she is fully entitled in order to emotionally protect herself, as is law in all human relationships where the aim is one of equal mental welfare. That is not loving attitude and behaviour so what *you* call loving someone very much is, I'm afraid, too wide of the standard healthy mark, one which too many married men manage to reach and sustain. Could this, without involving much stretch of the imagination, explain quite nicely one of the reasons behind why, you say, your wife cheated on you, do you suppose? She seems to think so. Think on... If she herself has had an affair at any time in the fairly recent past then it's safe to assume she would have every means of recognising the associative attitude as displays via characteristic symptomatic behaviours in another person, particularly one at such close quarters to her - her spouse. However, cheating does not precede the attitude. Other way around. Secretly bringing a third party (or in your case, fourth, fifth, sixth... despite remotely/virtually) into the marriage in reaction to problems not dealt with, therefore, is just a symptom, not the 'disease' itself, meaning it's just a matter of time combined with opportunity unless sound enough coral more values stand in its way. Sorry, what was that you mentioned about not using a film fantasy? To, in your case, what? JUST 'get your rocks off' with someone/s not your wife? Or for sexual and/or emotional leverage? I mean, clearly she would have known about it for who knows how long - hence eventually confronted you. Clearly, a part of you would have expected her to inevitably find out because clearly you did so in a way which was all too discoverable. Aim, fire, BULLSEYE! Wife now has something to live up to and pay heed to and cause to feel critisized/not good enough. So in fact, where concerns the mere manifestation of the cheating mind into actual reality in terms of an actual in-the-flesh third party - your wife merely beat you to it, didn't she. Think on... "she found that I had put my details into a dating website - but this was because I thought she had gone back to seeing a man she had an affair with." 1. Oh, that makes it alright, then, doesn't it. Did it never occur to you to confront her over whether or not she'd resumed her affair? You know, so that you can talk everything through and out? Or to demand couples counselling the first time? Or to threaten separation towards deciding whether or not to divorce if she didn't cease and get back to rowing your little boat with its two sets of oars? And then actually issuing proceedings had she failed to? Or did it strike you as far more easy and FUN to embark on doing what you now had the brilliant excuse to claim was purely revenge? Which do you love most - your wife, marriage and kids OR YOUR PRIDE? 2. Never, ever cheated on your wife, you say? Never remotely emotionally abused her, either, I'm betting... although, best strike that because... 3. Either your wife is an amazing private investigator and computer whizz or you - whoops, how did that happen?! - are not very good at covering your tracks then keeping them covered (you'd be surprised how many men and women *don't* get found out - ever). Emotional blackmail or counter-emotional blackmail, two wrongs do not make a right where making right is your intention. Lastly but certainly not leastly: "I thought the perfume for my wife was in the case" Then why not just simply say so to her at the time rather than insisting she must be blind and stupid? You think I came down in the last shower? You think I don't know that a man nursing resentment and a bruised ego, on noticing his wife's suspicious inklings, won't rapidly think, 'Oh, goodie! If she thinks I'm having an affair she might tread more carefully from now on as well as the playing field now being more levelled!'? Please! This may be 'just' a forum but we aren't all as Green as we're cabbage looking. I *could* go on. And on. And on. But I won't, aside from saying... Luckily for me, I do have an optimally healthy husband and long-term, ongoingly-happy relationship on all levels, meaning I know on the deepest levels possible all the practical as well as the copious, now indisputably-verified theory. Had I not? If I believed you, sir, were the epitome of a perfectly healthy husband (although this obviously doesn't automatically exonerate your wife) then - someone hand me 1,000 paracetamol and a bottle of whisky! It's a damn good job you two aren't sat in front of me right now or I'd probably be banging your heads together, HARD! Grow up and knuckle down or get out and cease acting like Tweedledum and Tweedledumber, the pair of you. He said this, she said that, yeah, but she did this, but he did that, meh-meh-meh... What are you - FIVE? You should be concerned only with what it takes to go forward more productively. The ONLY thing you should be focussing on is the fact that you are BOTH highly insecure and mistrustful with one another and need to address all the reasons why and whether that situation can be reversed (if indeed, it ever had anything worth reversing to), and that this is no "start" of things but a continuation and exacerbation, like an air-filled football futilely held under the seawater's surface. END OF! But don't you DARE tell me your wife unlike you isn't interested in making the marriage work or what do you think this entire thread is - chopped liver? And what do you think her (*dismissed!) beseechments to you go as far as threatening suicide were for - laughs?! And why would she have herself let you know about this thread? Tell me - where did she even ONCE mention money? Do not paint her with your own brushes. You're clearly after me advising or playing mediator to the pair of you together from here. Yet you seem to care what the world thinks far more than what each other thinks. So I'm not sure I should, particularly due to the risk of too many outside interferences and interruptions as well as the abject time and effort it would take due to the medium being too slow and non-verbal communication signals-impeded. It also should be no due to how this now strikes me as being more about the pair of you trying to drag a whole multitude of other people into your mere point-scoring, batting-back exercise so that one of you can come away calling yourselves right. That is not counselling. So my advice if the pair of you are genuinely married (cough!) adult individuals, and if staying married is far more important than who's right, who's wrong, when in fact it's now obvious you BOTH are, regardless of who "started it", is that you both get yourselves to your nearest marital therapist toute suite...and no need to thank me or this forum as having posed as what sounds like an almightily overdue catalyst in bringing this rhymes-with-bitty marital state to a head. Better out than in, and all that. If you STILL won't do the sensible thing in seeking a course of in-person joint counselling, then by all means feel free to 'email' one another back and forth on this thread (in which case I'd ask that everyone else have the common decency not to interrupt). However, worry about your personal public images is bound to present as a handicap - as is already the case as far as I can see. What about your children? Oh, yes, sure - you two if you split can easily dust yourselves off and find a replacement. And you've HAD your childhoods, haven't you. But you two together as a two-membered unit are the one and only parental set-up your kids will ever get to benefit from. So for their sakes, either pee or get off the pot so that they can start to adjust as painlessly as possible to the new status quo. What say you now, Stumped 1 and Stumped 2?

Hello, I have read my wife's reply and that of Soulmate. I apologize if you think that I am abusing your generosity however, I am genuine and not some "sick joke". As for some of my wife's reply, the incident with the porn did happen, 16 years ago not last week and the incident with the website happened at least 14 years ago, I think I have already explained my reasons and I did apologize to my wife when she proved me wrong. I tend to know that my position in the universe, I will back down when I am wrong but will do my best to put my side of the story. My aim was not to defend myself but to paint a picture as I see it, surely that is what my wife has done and you seem to agree with everything she says? To say that I am mentally abusing her is a bit far fetched, you don't seem to understand that I have always been willing to work hard at our relationship for the benefit of all of us. I have forgotten how many times that all the other men she has been with are so much better than me. I strive hard to do well at work and failed miserably, most notably last year, but if you want to believe my wife I am work a 24 hour shift. This is not so, work at home one day a week and the rest of the week aim to a typical '9 to 5' and not end up working for hours at home during the rest of the week. You ask that when I found out about the other affairs why I did not do anything. Well I have confronted her on many occasion but I find that I love my wife and feel that we have something special that no one else has and I want to keep that. She promises not to do what she does again and I believe her, what does that make me? Thank you.

I have read through some more of the postings from Soulmate, this is troubling quite a lot: "I mean, reading everything you're saying - CLEARLY this guy doesn't even like you, never mind love you. He's made you feel like in his eyes you're sh*t on his shoe, hasn't he, eh? Oh, he has somewhere to go, alright. But not without having to shell out spondoolichs as well as leaving half "his" lifelong worked-for wealth and assets behind including "his" house (but sod having a live in cook, nanny, cleaner and bottle-washer). So, yes, he waited until the trip (or jolly?) was at an end, already under his belt - noted. There can be no other reason why he stays when he demonstrates 100% that he doesn't care whether you - either his wife and lover or mother to his kids or cook/cleaner/etc. or just FRIEND/co-traveller, just person-not-him with feelings - actually prove his arrogance wrong and jump off the nearest cliff." Where do you get off making comments about someone you have never met, do not know and have only used one side of the story to formulate your opinion. I love my wife with all my heart and I can show the numerous messages that she has told me that she wished had never met me, had children with me and so on. On the point of the suicide plea, I was desperate to find a solution but that does not matter to you does it. Of course she does not again mention the time when she took an overdose of tablets and I made sure went to the hospital, stayed with her and looked after her. I don't want to pour this out here but I only felt I had too when I read the comments about me, I would not make comments about any of the people on here without hearing two sides of the story. Thank you.

When I first found out about the porn I told him to stop it because it hurt me he said he would I then found out he was still looking at it and even had videos of it in the boot of his car, I was shocked. So he hadnt stopped and we had moved house twice by then so he had still looked at it all that time. He once said he was fascinated by one of the porn stars bodies and it killed me inside to know she must of been perfect and I had a average body. We used to look at porn books together but I stopped, I used to blame myself and think if we hadnt looked msaybe he wouldnt have been looking t om the computer at it. Welived abroad and he said that prostitutes were legal. I asked him why he told me something like that and he said he was just reading about it so this placed doubt in my mind about if he would visit one or had visited them and thought it was a horrible thing to tell your wife I will admit i cheated with a man in september and i cant forget about him. he said he loved me which i wanted to believe another would but dont think he actually did but I miss seeing him so much. He said he wouldnt change a thing about me and it was the best compliment I have ever had and made me feel attractive. He had a nice body and I didnt feel guilty seeing him. The marriage is a complete mess and I love my husband even thou he as hurt me and made me feel unatractive and even not caring when ive been suicidal but I cant see how we hace a future anymore

Stumped and Sky, I'm so sorry you're navigating this incredibly difficult situation. Very quickly on; it seemed clear that what was being presented didn't add up and I wasn't going to feed that fire by encouraging blame and accusations, but tend always to err on the side of self-reflection when advising people on here, because after all - all I'm getting is their "side." You both seem engaged and willing to talk. Talking here, is a good step! It's very limiting and limited, however. How do you both feel about talking here and also seeking a couple's counselor in person? Starting to sift through all of this? You've both made your mistakes and both have been hurt by one another. Maybe it's time to lay down your weapons and try to see if a Phoenix can rise up from these ashes? While working through all the pain and confusion, remember to make time to think of and maybe even tell one another all the things you like and love about one another. I'll continue following this thread, and have to admit that I, too, thought Stump might be a "jokester" and am pleasantly surprised to see this is real engagement and dialogue. Stump, your "side" is as real as Sky's. Sky, vice versa. It's time to take responsibility for yourself and acknowledge how you EACH have contributed to this mess. Don't get caught up in the blame game. Talk about how you feel. Listen to one another. No blame. No right; no wrong, look at what IS without judgment, as much as possible. If you stay in blame, you'll get nowhere fast. As you're well aware. Best to you both. Sincerely, Tom

(Why...Is everyone waiting for Little Me? Seemingly so.) Interrestink... ...so transparent I can see what they ate for breakfast. I'll respond tomorrow. Glued to the PC or not, this isn't my only job and I've only just clocked off. Meanwhile, I wouldn't, anyone, waste your time trying to make me jump to it sooner via jabbing at my "PROVOCATION VIA INSULT & ANTAGONISM - PRESS HERE" button because - I don't have one, despite I can choose to for my own ends. Plus, when it comes to psychological manipulation - for the (*eventual*) power of without-exceptions, all-persons good, I might add - you've just met the longest-con merchant imaginable. Not even divulging that fact ever affords anyone any prevention or advantage (usually because they just think I'm just being c*cky). Nor does interference then interruption, and an unexpected (highly intentions-suspect) shunting-off of its merely foetal track of priming, flummox me or put me off my stride. I'm that good. (But nice try. ;-)) PS, STUMPED: Worry not, I'll tell you tomorrow precisely where I get off. PS, Shell-Sky: I'm still reading you closely, as well. PS, both of you: I wouldn't bother contriving premature mutual compliments, let's purge ourselves of the two-decades'-worth of bile first. Oh, and Tom: Considering you seem to believe a 20 year walk can be backtracked in one week - I wonder, have you ever heard of the terms, 'incredible patience, tenacity & perseverance', 'priming/establishing implicit trust and alliance', 'PROCESS' and 'premature verdict'? You also claim to be immune to the latter despite all I've seen from you on this and PT and SB's threads, I'm sad to say, is you, no matter how subtly, unerringly subjecting *me* to such - and all because you haven't got a clue how or for how long and in how many stages I operate. If it helps, you probably do at least have a bigger PHEE-PHOO! than me. ;-) Or maybe you don't? Maybe mine's bigger? Maybe I'm not really a wife in the gender-conventional sense at all? But I could always bring on my husband - or perhaps even someone merely purporting to be(??) - to posit his verification as convincingly as he can so that you can rest assured you finally have "both sides of the story" as well as "real engagement + dialogue" thus the empirical truth. Hey, you two boys have a lot in common, you should go for a pint together! :-) Or maybe just a quick snifter. You stick to the safer, conventional, more politically-correct ground, Tom, and I'll do the far side, okay? Which includes my knowing that it is *not* a good idea to two-time ones counsellor, whether for familial-productive or literary value reasons. But, hey-ho, I imagine drama-lovers everywhere will soon be flocking to this forum. So from at least a bums-on-seats viewpoint, it's all good. :-) Hasta manana.

Righty-ho, here we go... Buckle up, kiddo. "I love my wife with all my heart and I can show the numerous messages that she has told me that she wished had never met me, had children with me and so on." "Meh-meh-meh". Then how's about proving it by asking her at the time what has driven her to make such harmfully hurtful comments or demanding she answer that question in front of a friendly interrogator? Where I get off: 1. This is a forum. I can assert my furnished-'fact'-based observations and opinions and mock-venting-style statements thereof and thereto whenever I like and however I like within the parameters of acceptable etiquette, which themselves rely on establish-able intention. If I can see a 'conceptual' man, one I *don't and won't* (typically) have access to, is behaving in ways not remotely associated with loving behaviour - sustainedly - which is wholly supported by how the wife sounds and behaves, both above and deep under the surface, as well as his actions - I'll say so. It's called telling it like it is alleged to be. 2. As briefly made mention, just because this is a forum, doesn't mean it has to be a MacForum. When you have the experience and intelligence to tell that someone's in no fit state yet to start looking more closely at their own faults and behaviours, and when you can know the thread owner feels she has no-one else on their side, not even her husband, meaning that's their biggest need, then - rather than wasting your attempts to challenge the OP only to see them fall on deaf ears yet simultaneously act as a tipping-of to the OP when it comes to them having avoidant or culpability-eschewing answers at the ready for when you finally do - like any relationship, you start by becoming their their staunch ally. Do you know how many times I've said to a man or woman busy unstoppably venting and b*tching about their partner and ignoring advice that points EITHER way, 'Yeah, he's a total and utter PIG!' only for them to find their conscience can't sit with that lie thus replying, 'Er... Well, that's a bit strong, actually, in fact...'? [backpedal, backpedal]. But your wife didn't. So why not? Is she mad? You married a mad woman, had kids with a mad woman, and have accepted living the rest of your days with one? What are you - a charity? Saint Stumped of Arc? You can cherry-pick my quotes until your eyes bleed, and find me 'troubling' despite I've never nor would ever sign onto a dating site when in any relationship - even a nightmare one - nor, how matter how resentful, ignore my soulmate's cry for my - not the kids'! - help. But that doesn't alter the fact that there are also cases up there (ref Sword of Damoclese-waving) where I defended you and had a right royal go at her where rightfully warranted. And then I noted the above situation was afoot and gave up for that time being, to wait until such time as I would see Sky attach and open up more. (But right in the run-up to that point we (yawn) got interrupted.) It can take up to 2 years for a divorce to effect, and the opening stages of raising a petition months. Plenty of time to change ones mind with or without help. Aside from the fact there are zillions of abandoned, un-posted petitions laying dusty in solicitors' files everywhere, even divorce is not final. Plenty of couples have been known to get back together, either immediately or after whatever while. That could have been you two. And then you could have sat and b*tched and moaned about me. Do I care? No. Especially not when not one sincere, hard-working, willing individual has ever done so. EVER. You cannot deny you have BIG, decades-long problems in your relationship. If I 'fiddle' with your joint zit, even applying extreme agitation a deux, and it finally comes to a head and pops, more's the better for YOU. Because then you can finally TREAT it so that it can start to HEAL OVER, and treat it properly so that (wait for it - because you need to hear this bit) IT WON'T LEAVE A PERMANENT SCAR THAT ONE OR BOTH OF YOU HAVE STARING BACK AT YOU DAY AFTER DAY, YEAR-IN-YEAR-OUT IN THE MIRROR AS WELL AS YOUR SPOUSAL MIRROR. Furthermore, I repeat: when one spouse tells another, 'I want a divorce', the other party is perfectly capable of finally giving them the time, attention and concentration the situation's been long begging for, with the words, 'Woah, slow down, let's talk about this or get counselling first!'. (Ta-daaaa! Action Stations, FINALLY.) 3. If the woman happened to be highly deluded or downright demented (which I do NOT believe Sky is), thereby continually providing the wrong 'digits', it's not my responsibility if she then gets given the wrong sum total output. I am a calculator. Rubbish in = Rubbish out. That's her intrinsic issue and problem, as well as anyone foolish enough to have married her or remained so. Or else, by your logic, had I told your wife her solution was to go out and buy a Lottery ticket and she subsequently won the roll-over jackpot, that money would by rights be mine, all mine. 4. Everyone deep-down knows what the truth is and whether corresponding action should be taken or not. Sometimes, most of the time in fact - more time being the only temporary obstacle - not even that necessarily deep. So you can be as wrong as you like and it's still all good. In fact, in those cases, the more wrong you are - rather than fence-sittingly, non-courageously wishy-washy - the better. For example, if you thought you were unsure over your ethnicity and I tried to convince you you were Black, that would fail to resound as truth in your head, meaning, even if advised or downright urged to, unless actuall insane (in which case, why are you still out in public?), you'd be overly unlikely to go and buy an Affro hair comb or move to Harlem, etc., etc., as if you were a real-life Steve Martin character in The Jerk. Why the heck am I having to sit here, explaining to a grown man how common-sense works? We know why, don't we. You're seriously DefCon-ed. Chronically. Claiming to be completely at a loss do DO anything aside from prat around, waste time thus have too little time to get on with other things you'd rather not be getting on with, wholly tacitly complicit, the two of you in that exercise, hence mutually bickering, scoring points, sulking or sending to Coventry or continuing to tread muddy water, and - until now, your more sensible wife - choosing to stay stuck, endlessly going on and on about the he saids/she saids and the third-parties said. It doesn't mean she's been any cleverer where past DEALING was concerned or trying to get her so-called teammate to sit down and properly deal, WITH her, in terms of her not having her share of culpabilities to own. She isn't. You two just have differing roles and styles. Like I say, Tweedledum and Tweedledumber. Clueless as a cover for, 'Don' wanna, can't be bothered, too much like hard work'. But at least she deserves three cheers, now, for finally (apparently) deciding she's had ENOUGH!!! of the pratting about and around. Maybe it's simply that she's run out of other things to try self-machinatingly not to have time and energy for? Who knows. I just know that she's just now bit the bullet whilst you're still concerned with trying to justify and place blame, including, now, having a pop at me. Oh, so it's MY fault your wife is so utterly easy to convince to start a divorce is it? Wow, I knew I was powerful but, not that much?! (Here, Sky, did I remember to mention that if you want your torture to end you should transfer your entire life-savings into my account? No? Don't want to? Oh, well, worth a try. Allegedly-implicationally.) Why do YOU care what a complete stranger and other stranger bystanders think of a faceless man they'll never identify, let alone meet? Or is it NOT us? Is it what your WIFE thinks that concerns you, and you'd rather she keep veering between believing there's nothing wrong aside from her own doing and knowing her silly decisions were REACTIVE? (You're the boss? Well, the buck stops with you - rule number 1.) And to keep achieving that what-is-known-as Gaslighting attempt - regardless of for whatever reasons, silly but benign or downright maliciously deliberate - now takes you trying to discredit me, my efficacy and character? For example, giving me utter nonsense about how, just because X years ago you *did* take her suicide threat seriously, that means you *didn't* behave wholly counter to a man in love - or a man who's protractedly so hell bent on not showing it that he behaves - even at potential his and others' life-smashing crunch-time - exactly like a man who's reached the genuine opposite of love, called, INDIFFERENCE! 'Nah, don't kill yerself love [textietextie], cos SOME people need you, ...i.e. the kids'. Oh,...be still, my beating, starving heart [swoons]. If NOT an appropriately instant response, what about a check-in/check-up a bit later and later?...what about, even, an habitual, marital bog-standard Night-Night call from the party venue before lights-out?...what about, NOT getting so drunk you're going to be over the driving limit or non compus mentis come a crisis call from the Police?.... on and on I could go! Jeez, that you even COULD attend a party rather than drive straight home, that you even COULD supposedly fall asleep - WHEN YOU *ALREADY* KNEW FROM THE ONLY JUST (cheers for that!) CONFESSED-TO PRIOR NEAR-SUCCESS SUICIDE ATTEMPT SHE DARN WELL *COULD AND MIGHT VERY WELL* DO IT AGAIN!!! "On the point of the suicide plea, I was desperate to find a solution " Uh-huh. To the point where your wife could see it and full-well knew it and recount it. Mm-hm. Here's her and my 'we're stupid' faces ---> :-) :-) Or is she lying through her teeth and none of that happened? Well, what do you expect ME to do about that?! I'm a feedbacker, adviser, ally, bring-it-to-a-head or out from the under the table merchant, not bleedin' Mystic Meg. I can predict X far, father than most, but not all of us have an actual, whole crystal ball whereby they can KNOW the precise outcome...to point of claiming to know for a fact - and behaving accordingly by whatever degrees - when a prior suicide attempter makes another 'threat', that mere threat is all it is, IRRESPECTIVE of anything lesser- nay, contextually now trivial and petty, like bottled-up resentment gagging to get its chance to express itself. You are sooo brimming with resentment now you'd play Russian Roulette with your very wife's very EXISTENCE and thereto your kids' present and future, life-long welfare. Do you understand, now, what an utterly dire-, nay - worst state possible that night's whole stream of failure of actions indicates your marriage is in and YOU are in if you should remain for another second not tending to what needs to be tended to - as is why I said she needed to finally do something EFFECTIVE at making you pick up your own oars? You do NOT love, as in, IN APPLICATION, your wife dearly because you can't even feel it when push comes to shove, so far back in the emotional urges queue is it. You're so desensitized to this whole allegedly intolerable existence that you can't even see the unconscionable heinousness of that event alone. And you have the temerity to claim you dearly love your wife and imply she's not reasonable for feeling completely and utterly unloved or worse, or why other people might actually AGREE with her or 'make' her spill the full shebang, even if only in the form of articulating what she needs but just hasn't yet said out of her own mouth? You are having a laugh. Read this again! ***** When I first found out about the porn I told him to stop it because it hurt me he said he would I then found out he was still looking at it and even had videos of it in the boot of his car, I was shocked. So he hadnt stopped and we had moved house twice by then so he had still looked at it all that time. He once said he was fascinated by one of the porn stars bodies and it killed me inside to know she must of been perfect and I had a average body. We used to look at porn books together but I stopped, I used to blame myself and think if we hadnt looked msaybe he wouldnt have been looking t om the computer at it. Welived abroad and he said that prostitutes were legal. I asked him why he told me something like that and he said he was just reading about it so this placed doubt in my mind about if he would visit one or had visited them and thought it was a horrible thing to tell your wife I will admit i cheated with a man in september and i cant forget about him. he said he loved me which i wanted to believe another would but dont think he actually did but I miss seeing him so much. He said he wouldnt change a thing about me and it was the best compliment I have ever had and made me feel attractive. He had a nice body and I didnt feel guilty seeing him. The marriage is a complete mess and I love my husband even thou he as hurt me and made me feel unatractive and even not caring when ive been suicidal but I cant see how we hace a future anymore ***** Who CARES who's fault it all is or who started it or who did what in reaction, aside from bringing the stupid thing to a finally non-ignorable, non-deniable head. *Someone's* got to be the adult. It appears to me that by saying she's finally going to take the apparently APPROPRIATE, BONA FIDE decision - UNLESS YOU GIVE HER SOUND REASON NOT TO, I.E. PICK UP THOSE DAMN OARS INSTEAD OF EVERYTHING BUT - that label can be applied at this point solely to your wife. So are you going to be shown up by a woman, are you, in terms of who's the younger sibling? Or are you going to step up and match her? ANSWER HER/THAT POST, INSTEAD OF TRYING TO AVOID IT BY LOCKING HORNS PETULANTLY WITH ME! IN WRITING! It's called Commitment for real rather than pretended, putting your money where your mouth is. That would be the first step... looking at the top sheet in your joint emotional in-tray and working down from there. Logical, Captain! This is a long-haul PROCESS, not a one-week-and-you're-done 5/10-hit wonder, so if you really want the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow in whatever of two available forms it might take, you'd best get on with it. Quicker you start, quicker you'll get there and all that. ...Or don't. Just continue for another 20 years nursing a whole hangar-full of resentments and throwing fat onto the fire whereby your wife feels she's no choice but to throw hers on too. But, if so, leave me out of it because there are real, FOR-real people queuing up here who want to actually know how to fix/where to start or get given the time-unlimited emotional support to themselves FIX. I am not on anyone's "side", apart from seemingly whichever 'side' comes here. I hate each and every one of you all equally, actually, ha-ha, which makes for a supremely unbiased moderator, FYI. Apart from the kids, of course. And they, more than anyone, are waiting... Because doing what it takes, whether it merely seems like the more taxing route (not - either/or/comme ci/comme ca), is, quote, how you see you have a future any more [no full-stop, note. It's called, "Over to you, husband"]. And I cannot WAIT to have my ever-contrived but productive opinions proven wrong. *Cannot* say fairer than that. Roger, and Over, to Stumped 1...

Sky, what's happening? You okay?

Soulmate I am getting by thanks for asking but I hate my life and hate I ever ever met him I really do. I have wasted 22 years on a no mark of a so called husband who might of loved me in the beginning but not anymore. I cursed the first day I ever turned up to meet him. I know he as cheated like when he went to Germany for five days and not once did he texted the kids to ask how I was then on the day he was coming home he texted me to say he wanted to come home because he wanted to be with me and the kids. he had had his fun, probably cheating with the little office tart out there then wanted to know me all of a sudden then the xmas party, didnt answer my calls or texts not even when he went to bed with whoever just to say, what do u want cos that how little I was to him even when I was suicidal. He pushed me a few days back because we had been arguing and he also pushed me years ago against a bedside cabinet and I had a massive bruise on my arm and I didnt tell anyone not even his mother which I should of done to let her lmow what a t..t of a son she had.. He also strangled me and pushed my head right down towards the gears in the car when I was with him again because we were arguing. The hatred I feel is as much as I feel for my own father who once told me, I would ended up a spinster if I hadnt of met the one im now with If only I had told my father how the one I was with was a b.....d and I would of been better on my own then with him. All them years wasted with him god im so angry pive wasted so much of my life on a piece of s..t. even when I told him I wanted god to take me because I hate my life and I know its because of him he didnt even say anything, not one thing now that kills me but u know I have been alone for so long and got this far so I will survive and move on and take the world on like I have for a very very long time now. I dont think he as answered you because he wanted you to agree totally with him and prove hes not in any wrong and I dont think he likes that you have put him in his place, thankyou for that!

HUNG.DRAWN.QUARTERED.........JUDGED!!!!! Thanks Scowlmate (ironically of course!!!!!)

Sky, Realising that won't have been the only one such example of how your dad behaved and uttered towards you if he could even come out with such a mean and horrid statement to his own daughter in the first place, it would seem you married someone too similar to him - i.e. emotionally overly dense (or that as a cover for not cooperating) and lacking in genuine adult self-control underneath the mere veneer, and with a crap work ethic except where directly concerns money = Own Worst Enemy - thus couldn't ever make any headway with 'him', either. Ended up a spinster, my a*se. "I dont think he as answered you because he wanted you to agree totally with him and prove hes not in any wrong and I dont think he likes that you have put him in his place, thankyou for that!" Oh, I'm ahead of you on that score, Sky, no worries. Actions including now-obvious failure of giant actions always, ALWAYS speak louder. ********* Stumped, Are ya? Stumped? Without a single cluuuuuuue about how to patch up a broken relationship if not an office-/work-based one? Uh-huh. Sorry that butter-wouldn't-melt alias of yours didn't help like a regular sales-pitcher supposed, but, nice try. Although, obviously not as nice as, say, "Desperate" or even just "Shell'sLovingHusband", etc. And thanks for this, you latest highly maritally-productive comment yet again aimed at me in favour of anything LOVING or just NICE or even plain CONCILIATORY aimed at your wife.. But that's probably my fault, too, because, allegedly... It was ME, NOT YOU, who ran away from the issues that led to your wife falling into the arms of another by doing nothing aside from secretly watching porn and then deliberately and knowingly going ether-shopping for a mistress (and in such a cavalier way as revealingly meant she all-to-easily found out). Yup, that's what everyone does when seeing 'Houston, we have a giant problem' and loving our spouse and our life with them so damn much we daren't make things worse in case we lose it: leaps from the frying pan into the fire, dragging our marriage along with us, yup. And it was ME whom when given the recent, apparently last-ditch opportunity to finally desperately convince my wife I did still love her, decided it would be a much better idea to let myself physically aggress her during an argument ...like I'd done those times before or like even once wasn't too much. Uh-huh. And it was ME who somehow couldn't just childs-play say, 'You're right, it WASN'T in the bag when you looked, sorry about that, sweetheart, I was mistaken, I clean forgot I'd taken it downstairs, didn't mean to worry you', instead of basically, 'It was-was-WAS here all along, are you blind and deluded or what!'. Mm-hm. Because, of course, it was me who couldn't think fast enough on my feet nor explain why on earth I would have felt I needed to have removed it from the bag whilst, whoops-silly-me, leaving the receipt in the first place, wasn't it. MM-HMM. And ditto *me* who flounced out and off in my car mid-argument with my phone for a full hour, uh-huh. And ME whom despite I'm higher up than most in "The" greatest-gift-of-the-gab industry known as Sales who can't think on his feet enough to say emphatically-enough, 'Don't be silly, I've LOVE to go to the cinema with you tonight, I just meant can we not get a very late night', to the point where she'd respond, 'Oh, sorry, I misunderstood you'. Cuh... silly me... all these tools and skills at my disposal and what do I do?... And ME who recently played Russian Roulette with her life despite past events has already proven it to be a decidedly idiotically foolhardy bet to abandon her for its entire duration during that repeat, desperate, now-characteristic state of mind of hers and instead keep my partying appointment, fail to take 5 piddly minutes out to ring and console her or even do what I'd like people to think was to me the safer thing to do (text the KIDS), including ME telling her at least the kids would miss her, etc., PLUS my only ever phoning her in such in-a-state situations to tell her I did want her when there was something concrete for ME to gain out of it. I see... (Please don't go into the Police or Fire Service, will you, because they do their utmost to save even complete strangers.) Oh, wait, and ME who acted suspiciously on the phone and laptop despite I could have made the sensible effort to be wholly willingly transparent and show innocence, or at least not allow the original issues as exacerbated such suspicious perception to remain, yup. And also ME whom, when presented with the crucial opportunity to publicly say, "I love my wife with all my heart and I can show the numerous messages I've sent her in the past telling her so in no uncertain terms.", instead was more concerned, even then, with saying, "I love my wife with all my heart and I can show the numerous messages that she has told me that she wished had never met me, had children with me and so on.", as in, it's not me, it's all her. And ditto to, "Having read though all of the postings and what my wife has put, I felt the need to put my side and let you know what has been happening", instead of, "She's wrong about my not still loving her or cheating on her, but I can see I've got some serious marital work to be getting on with". ...Right-o. And ME who's for so long failed to act like a man in love or one who wants to save his precious marriage and encourage or downright demand emergency couples counselling since last week, or even empty EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS POCKETS in order to definitively plaster permanent egg on her years'-suspicious face, ...uh-huh... because it's ME who'd have her and everyone believe I'm just too much of a simpleton to know how to fix something that's broken despite too many other grown men manage it or at the least manage to convince their wives she herself has reason thus hope enough to go and arrange it at my behest. Sure. So, in 'fact', it was ME who so effortlessly tipped this marriage from miles away from the edge to right ON the edge, about to fall off and needing nothing but supportive agreement over pure logic both intellectual and emotional to make it do so, yyyyyip! Uck me, I didn't know I was so super-human!!! I think it's time I mounted a campaign to take over the WORLD, don't you?! "Frankly, my dear", if you don't already have a real-live mistress (*not* from your office) in your pocket then this is all just a case of non-coinciding TIMING, events from your wife's side having beaten you to it or just having happened to have caught you 'between mistresses', or/and of you having been too damn clever for your own good in your petty little campaign to smash your wife's confidence in her own judgement and thereto maintain her paralysing suspiciousness in the hope it'd finally shut her up Amen replete with her tip-toeing around on eggshells, never again daring to complain or to demand a THING - let alone adequate counter-proof to her firm belief that for years you hadn't loved or even fancied or at the least liked her enough to care more about whether she lived or died than your own pettily selfish feelings and needs, and hadn't done for years - then you must be the human exception to the copious rules and should donate yourself to science! If you can't be grown adult enough to work out how instigate making-good nor even solicit perfectly easily- and widely-available third-party assistance with it, EVEN WHEN HANDED A GOLDEN OPPORTUNITY called Crunch Time, and would even at that dangerous point prefer just to b*tch, moan, and blame someone else BECAUSE IT'S SO MUCH EASIER AND LESS HASSLE, then you really shouldn't be trying to take benefit from the major perk of one, known as Marriage & Children, and should wait until you've gained a bit more maturity, wisdom, humility and common sense. Because I could go on and ooon and OOOOON about all the classic, downright texbook *and* lesser-known adulterous attitudes, individual and en masse both, macro and micro, both, afore- *and* yet-to-be-mentioned both, that you've been displaying via your behaviours and accidental as well as accidental-on-purpose little clue droppings. But you'd rather go on and on and on with the battle, wouldn't you, including manhandling your desperate-for-positive-counter-signs-and-explanations wife during a time that even a toddler could have appreciated demanded the distinct opposite and nothing but! Because, of course, once the battle ceases, it's disprove the suspicions including emptying every single one of your pockets time, isn't it! ISN'T IT! If it looks like a wolf, moves like a wolf, walks like a wolf, scratches like a wolf, insists on keeping on braying, howling and barking like a wolf, then it's a wolf. If it ISN'T a wolf, and doesn't LIKE being taken for a wolf, it does everything in its power to reveal itself the benign sheep that it is - BEFORE the opportunity to do so is lost - ber..........BOM! So on behalf of your wife and kids: Yeah, thanks, Stunted-I mean, Stumped (ironically of course!!!!!). And Sky? You're welcome. Don't worry, you'll love your life again before you even know it, that I guarantee you.

I call myself Stumped, because when you cannot get through to someone.... that's how I feel but Stunted is also a good one. Sorry but you are not in possession of the facts, yes I did look at porn but I never used to replace my wife and my wife had her first affair before I started but she still cannot give me a valid excuse as to why and also why she carried on year after year. And I have no mistress and I have never cheated on my wife and I keep telling her that and will to my dying day because that is the TRUTH. I think you biggest problem is that you are seeing a 23 year relationship in the context of a few lines, I know my feeling for my wife and I have examined them many a time to know that I love her and through all of this I keep telling her that I just want work at our relationship

On behalf of your wife: in the famous words of Eliza Doolittle - "Don't tell me, SHOW me!". All that your wife's just reported is fact enough for me. 'Just want to work on your relationship', my arse. Oh, is that what you CALL shoving her, is it? Is that your idea of WOOING/REPAIRING? That you had a whole week's worth of opportunities to start treating her kindly with a capital K, IF NOT like someone you allegedly love so dearly, even enough to have left her receptive to discussing and explaining her past reasons for this/that/the other, or merely feeling like there was still hope and scope and saying so here, is fact enough for me. Or are you the blind, deaf, stupid and deluded one. The way you've been handling her, you may as WELL have a mistress. So who cares whether you do or don't? Certainly not Sky. EVIDENTLY! In fact, if you don't have a mistress nor ever have (- although why I'm expected to believe this given your self-confessed web expeditions, I do not know) - that makes all of this WORSE! You just can't see it, can you. Or don't want to.

Do you have any update, Sky? And I do mean you, not Stumped. (I'm clearly not going to get any sense out of him.) He can just watch 'n learn.

Soulmate oh quite alot as gone on. We started arguing on friday and he said he had had enough he was going to do something and he meant hurt himself or kill himself. He got hold of his bathrobe belt and said he was going to do it he then went into bathroom and he had used the scissors to put marks on his wrist. Ive done this myself in the past but never told him. He was shouting for me to get out, our daughter heard all of this. His anger scsres me and he slams doors and i cant live with the death threaths as he as done this before when we have argued so bad. I dont have anywhere to go because i know if i went it would be for the best and that i can never ever trust him after xmas and with not answering his phone, its in the back of my mind all the time. He said i had hit him in the head and punched him in the stomach which i swear to god i didnt. I had had a drink but i know all i done was grabbed the back of his neck and squeezed it and that was all. If i had done the other things he would of told me to get off and storm out, he didnt. I think he said i done these things because i was saying how he had strangled me and pushed me against the bedside cabinet years ago and i should of left him them and i think he realised he shouldn't of done that and he might of felt bad thats why he accussed me of hurting him. He doesnt take an interest in the home its always me making it look nice buying things for the home and he doesnt even notice if i do and if he does notice its, if you like that type of thing like recently i bought what i can only describle as twigs with lights on and i think he said it was ok. it hurts me because he would never say, i know you keep the house nice and buy stuff for it because you want us to live in a nice home. I tell him about my sister who as a husband who works yet still comes home and does DIY for her. He says hes not a DIY person but neither am i but i try my best. I think its excuses cos he doesnt give a damn and he said i should of married my brother in law and i said i know i wished i had. I envy my sister for having a man go to work who does a eight hour shift then come home and do DIY til all hours and taking an interest in the house and look after her, why couldnt that of been me. All he wants to do his go to work come home make abit of tea which he as done for years because i hate cooking and nithing more. If he lived by himself he would have to work cook clean do his washing tidy the house but because ive done all the housework for years i feel ive been taken for a fool for years and played upon and i have so much resentmeant towards him. He as booked relate for Monday and i just want her to tell me to leave him and to not take thus S..t anymore. Doesnt help i cant turn to my family for help and no one else. All i ever wanted was to be like my sisters and meet a man settle down and have a normal relationship with trust and honestly.

Soulmate you asked for a update i gave it, any reply from yourself now?

Sorry - I've been late replying to everyone lately (day job). "he was going to do something and he meant hurt himself or kill himself. He got hold of his bathrobe belt and said he was going to do it he then went into bathroom and he had used the scissors to put marks on his wrist." That was completely immature, completely non-fatherly, wholly non-productive and COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. "i done was grabbed the back of his neck and squeezed it and that was all. " AND SO WAS THAT. Whether or not you did or didn't or have or haven't on any previous occasion, you shouldn't be laying your hands on one another in anger AT ALL! EVER! PARTICULARLY when your kids are there!!!! I know it's difficult in the heat of a humdinger when you 'just wanna smash their stupid face in', but here's the thing: there wouldn't BE these humdingers with their overwhelming anger and frustration chomping at the 'lemmie at him/her' bit if ONE OF YOU HAD *ALREADY* - LONG BEFORE THIS WEEK - organised a counsellor and just got on with it rather than wasting all this time and energy and in the process risking disturbing your poor kids. But Kudos to Stumped for finally doing it. Are you two getting some sort of perverse pleasure out of this futile back-and-forth-ness over nothing but the past and immediate present? Or are you both just trying to squeeze your last points in before Monday comes around? GREAT that he has rung Relate (eureka!) but I also want you both to do this: Order ONE copy (Amazon et al) of the book called, "Too Good To Leave/Too Bad To Stay" by Mira Kirshenbaum and read it together EVERY NIGHT in bed with a highlighter pen for you and another of a different colour for him. In fact, I say 'every night' but I'm betting you'll get through it in one hit. This un-put-down-able book contains a number of acid-test, diagnostic questions (with explanations both about why it's being asked and what your response means) helps you decide INCREDIBLY speedily yet effectively and honestly what it is you both **DEEP DOWN** (not when overwrought) want to do AND how to do it, whether it be staying together or parting amicably. I'm betting Staying. The Relate counsellor, however, is not going to do that, s/he's just going to get you thinking about what you're both saying. That's great when there's time in the form of weeks stretched out ahead of you, but clearly that's not the case here. This is an A&E situation. So do it today, okay? He rang the counsellor so now it's your turn. This is you BOTH being grown-up and sensible at the same time rather than taking it in turns to play numbskull. No offense, but it's true and you know it.

Oh, and I'm obviously talking, guaranteed next day delivery (just so's there's no confusion). If you order it now you'll get it tomorrow. Oh, and another thing: you, Sky, get to hold the book between you both but you take it in turns to be the first to write Yes or No to each question or to highlight any phrases or paragraphs with an underline score (leaving room for the other's line).

And another thing (sorry): don't order any book with a similar title, it's got to be this one and this one alone. It's in a class of its own - STILL! - meaning, "no-thing compares ..2 it".

Wait - one more (I think, LOL): Best make that two copies - just in case you start criticising and rowing over whatever the other goes and highlights. If that starts to happen, you retreat to read and mark yours whilst he does the same with his, and then afterwards swap them over. Furthermore, it matters not whether you believe each other's 'comments' to be true or false because feelings are subjective truth (perception is reality) where facts are objective truth yet a relationship involves and validates BOTH. Saying that, there's to be no deliberate fabricating or exaggerating. It's truth time. And prepare to be wholly surprised. (I think that's it for now.)

So, Sky, did you order it?

No I haven't bought it yet. We went to a counselling session and I ended up crying which just came out of the blue, it was a little embarrassing but its how I felt. We are booked in for another in two weeks which seems far off but they are so busy so we arent the omly ones having trouble. It felt good to talk to someone instead of just coming on here.

Well, my advice is you still do. Whereas, your own advice obviously has been to opt for the route that allows you to safely spill your banked-up guts. Fine, then. Just buy the book to keep as a fallback. Bear in mind, however, that it equally gives great relationship advice for in case the decision is Stay. Anyway, this case with the aid of a cox, I'm glad you two have finally commenced rowing the little boat. That's the main thing. :-) In fact, it's the ONLY thing.