Fallen for fwb

Met him a few months ago, fwb arrangement initially but I've gone n fallen for him. Think I need to discuss with him but dunno how to start conversation. I want to be honest but not burn bridges or seem stalker ish would be great to get advice from guys in particular on this. We don't normally discuss emotions which is why I'm really struggling with this. I don't want to be hurt more than absolutely necessary

Due to his job he's away a lot so we only see each other every 2-3 weeks anyway. What you're saying is kinda where I tried to lead a conversation last time we met and was unsuccessful. I'm v v nervous about discussing with him. Yes I want a relationship but I understand and am ok with taking that side of things v slowly. I want to know if he's interested in even the possibility of a relationship but I'm v aware that once we have this discussion we'll either be together or I'll never see him again. I'm aware that for my own sake it's best if I stop seeing him now rather than risk being hurt even more.

The best thing to do, in my opinion, would be to tell him you've caught feelings for him THEN tell him that unless he feels the same way then you're going to have to cut it off. No sense in letting this man continue to have your body when you're no longer able to have sex without emotions/strings attached. Now, if he does say that he feels the same way and would like to pursue a relationship, then proceed. But be careful that it doesn't fall back on that same old, comfortable FWB level. :-)

Agree completely with SUSIE and TVOR. Although, you don't strictly have to SAY anything in terms of a heralding of what's to come because [1] he's not stupid and is already aware of how you feel about it from last time, [2] actions (Susie's recommendation) speak louder without even NEEDING words. I mean, if you suddenly become unavailable and elusive, he'll have to ask himself WHY, won't he, and work it out on his own (because you're not available to provide the answer), and then either remedy it so that you ARE interested all over again or concede defeat and let you go off and get yourself a better model. Win/Win. Certainly actions will prove to him you're dead serious this time, won't they.

Friday I thext him saying perhaps we shouldn't meet again. For my sake. He said in reply he wouldn't wanna cause any hurt that he's too much of a wanderer. His job takes him away a lot. I said that wasn't a problem. I just didn't think we were on same page any more. He said he would still be a friend, someone that thinks I'm a good person. I said I thought he was a good person too, but that I want more than he does right now. Thats where we left it. Since then he's been on the site we met on a fair bit. Can't really complain about that as its a site for casual meet ups but ... Now he's just shown up on a normal dating site I'm on having marked the option 'wants a relationship'!!!! What on earth am I meant to think now?? Was I just not good enough? Cos I'm a single mum ? (He doesn't have kids and has put 'undecided' re dating someone with kids, he's also put on profile that he wouldn't wanna date someone with a fear of flying (which I have and he knows but it doesn't stop me flying I just don't particularly enjoy it), he travels for pleasure a lot as well as with work which I can't as currently unemployed. I dunno what to do. Do I ask him what the problem was or what?

I think you've done the best thing by communicating with him using words. The "don't see him and see what he does" thing feels like game playing to me. If you want something, be direct, in action and words. That way there's less room for miscommunication. He answered, and then created an account saying he's looking for a relationship. That definitely seems like he's possibly interested in something, but not with you. I'm sorry that possibility is painful, but it seems the most likely outcome to me.

Oh, good grief, Charlie Brown. So misunderstood, so little time… Yeah, if you want a man to have any CLUE about the fact that, contrary to what some women might occasionally like to claim, having a man standing on her toe is NOT enjoyable for her - certainly not for longer than 5 minutes - meaning, he should er-duh-er-duuh REMOVE it (or better yet, be responsibly grown-up and gentlemanly enough not to put it there in the first place!), you should sit him down to explain how the world and its female occupants work, poor wickle ignorwant bubbie, ahhh. And if talking (slooowly in very short sentances) to him doesn't work, you can always try a Venn diagram, yeh? Just make sure you use lots of colourful crayons to keep his interest for long enough, okay? Because secretly, men are all Forest Gump. Yup (shh!). Meaning, when they try it on with a woman, including allowing her to GET the idea there's scope for promotion, they're NOT playing games, nope. They're just innocent and guileless. The POINT, TF, of the woman trying to meet game-playing with game-playing (to the reasonable and largely effort-free degree I was recommending) - *after* having already tried to do the straight route but finding such open and honest communication well and truly BLOCKED by whatever under-the-table means (ref "We don't normally discuss emotions...where I tried to lead a conversation last time we met and was unsuccessful...I'm v v nervous about discussing with him") - is *not* for the man or the so-called relationship's benefit. It's for hers... so that she, the woman - whom by the very NATURE of her wishful thinking has proven she'll find doing so difficult - can walk away knowing that she tried absolutely everything that was reasonably in her power to do, meaning, the failure was not down to her but him, because clearly NOTHING was going to work. She needs this lesson on the emotional level as *well* as on the conscious one. Or would anyone claim it never once deeper-down occurred to her at the outset what a (no offense, PT) foolish position she was considering buying into? Of course it did. Women are well aware they intrinsically want more than sex merely for its own sake. You only have to look at any forum out there - any media, in fact - to know women and an FWB set-up are like oil and water, meaning, just don't go there. PAIGETURNER did go there and that speaks volumes. A man who'd even think of using a woman like that is NOT the type of man who likes things above board, let alone transparent. The entire "relationship" is under the table (think about it!). You try talking to him and you may as well mimic Charlie Brown's teacher (mwah-mwah-mwah-mwah). He's going to think, 'Yeah, love, I really believe ya new-found self-respect' and then just carry on merrily... or wait 5 minutes before trying again. TVOR clearly knows this (kudos to him!), hence why he said, 'fall back on' that same old comfortable FWB level. If you're that type of woman who believes she can change a man's mind and intent to that degree, then it's vital to receive this unequivocal enlightening where it psychologically counts, so that NEXT time she'll know her limitations (as well as his) and NOT put herself in that ego bruising or downright heartache firing line. To wit: "I'm aware that for my own sake it's best if I stop seeing him now rather than risk being hurt EVEN MORE." If PT is truly already reconciled on *both* left and right hemispheres of her mind to the fact that a man that hell-bent on keeping his cushy arrangement, whereby he creates a communications-out-of-bounds atmosphere to suit, is more than likely zero scope on *legs*, then GREAT. Good for her. But [1] my worry is that her emotional level might conclude this man the exception to the rule, meaning, she might go there again one day, and [2] this is a public forum where other women might not be so switched on or developmentally 'there' yet. Hence, in my opinion, it's best to find a clever balance between customised advice and off-the-peg. In short, if first you don't succeed, try, try again. If you STILL can't succeed, success was not there to be had to begin with – not with him, not with ANY type with that tendency to want to use women against design purpose. But I’ll bet you any money you like that if matey’s shopping expedition fails to yield any success, he’ll at some point be ringing PT to work on trying to convince her to drop her knickers for free all over again. Ohh, yes. Seen it a thousand times. Because to *believe* a woman’s seeming, new-found stance takes the man already possessing (wait for it) RESPECT for women and their feelings and statements. Men who respect women tend not to ever FWB them. Berbom. He’s pre-confirmed my suspicion ANYWAY look: “He said he would still be a friend”. And we know what his definition of a female friend is, don’t we, children. ARE YOU READY FOR THAT TRY-IT-ON-AGAIN ATTEMPT, PAIGETURNER? “Now he's just shown up on a normal dating site I'm on having marked the option 'wants a relationship'!!!! What on earth am I meant to think now?? Was I just not good enough? Cos I'm a single mum ? (He doesn't have kids and has put 'undecided' re dating someone with kids, he's also put on profile that he wouldn't wanna date someone with a fear of flying (which I have and he knows but it doesn't stop me flying I just don't particularly enjoy it), he travels for pleasure a lot as well as with work which I can't as currently unemployed. I dunno what to do. Do I ask him what the problem was or what?” PT, he’s PLAYING you! Never mind his mere mimicking, verbally, of a gentleman. You think he doesn’t KNOW you’re going to be back on those sites and would more than likely clock all this? You think he doesn’t KNOW you’re going to feel highly slighted and (a woman like you who takes things at seeming face value) want to PHONE HIM to find out why you ‘weren’t good enough’? You’ve rejected and thwarted the cunning, cushy plan he thought would last way longer! He doesn’t like that, he’s not having it. He thinks he’s CLEVERER than women and can manipulate them like highly convenient chess-pieces! Including you. Ignore, ignore, ignore. It’s all BS anyway. He’s not going to be spending money on some woman’s flight passage. Hah! Why WOULD he when there are ‘so many fools out there willing to open their legs for now’t but crumbs’? Do you get it yet, Paige? PLAYER. Player-player-player-player-PLAYER! How would Playing be successful if the man didn't know to present and maintain the impression of his being a gent?

Whilst I consider myself an intelligent woman I must admit I'm crap at relationships. At reading people hence on here asking for advice. Mainly as generally I'm a straightforward honest person myself and unfortunately expect others to be the same and am thrown when they're not and I'm not just talking about romantic relationships whatever. So soulmate you're basically saying don't fall for the dating profile saying 'wants a relationship' or his seemingly innocent friendly message he's had no luck getting another lady and therefore is trying to persuade me back? He's not interested in a real relationship even if later on he claims to have rethought things? Makes sense to me. I don't think being in a fwb thing implies lack of self respect. It's suited me at various points in my life just this time I did fall for him. He is v charming but has a background where he's probably been taught/learnt how to be able To appear a gent even if he's not. Geez even his profile username uses the word. Cut him off?

Most people are crap at relationships, Paigeturner, that's why so many fail. So, give yourself some credit for trying in such a vapid, shallow dating environment. Give yourself props, too, for being straightforward, knowing yourself and what you want. Fwb situations aren't for everyone. I had a few completely functional fwb "relationships" in my 20s and remain sincere friends with each of them to this day. I preferred that to no sex, or one night stands. And it CAN work, with the right people involved - usually, direct, straightforward people who know who they are, what they want, and what they're capable of. This guy does not sound like that to me. No shame in getting what you want, but only if you come by it honestly and with people who can meet you there honestly. I stand by my original opinion and agree with SoulMate (on at least this ONE point) - The guy may or may not be a player, we have no way of even beginning to deduce that, but you should certainly run away from this one as fast as your little legs will carry you.

"Whilst I consider myself an intelligent woman I must admit I'm crap at relationships. At reading people hence on here asking for advice. Mainly as generally I'm a straightforward honest person myself and unfortunately expect others to be the same and am thrown when they're not and I'm not just talking about romantic relationships whatever. So soulmate you're basically saying don't fall for the dating profile saying 'wants a relationship' or his seemingly innocent friendly message he's had no luck getting another lady and therefore is trying to persuade me back? He's not interested in a real relationship even if later on he claims to have rethought things? Makes sense to me. I don't think being in a fwb thing implies lack of self respect. It's suited me at various points in my life just this time I did fall for him. He is v charming but has a background where he's probably been taught/learnt how to be able To appear a gent even if he's not. Geez even his profile username uses the word. Cut him off?" NO, Paige, you are NOT crap at relationships and reading people! Don't you know what a player THAT cunning/smooth is? (And I say cunning & smooth because look at both the trouble he's going to AND the way he's doing it. He's done it before, oh, yes.) PERSONALITY DISORDERED, just by another moniker: irrational fear of intimacy co-morbid with irrational fear of abandonment/rejection. Know how that manifests? Like this: 'I want you 5 Foot from me, not too close, not far enough to make me feel abandoned/rejected'. It's not normal. So when he indicates, 'come here', you come INSIDE 5ft (because that's normal). He panics and pushes you away, hoping you'll take just one step back. But taking one step in reaction to that is not normal. So you end up OUTSIDE 5ft. He panics again and (at this point, has to) manipulates you back again... back, forth, back, forth, push you, pull you, push you, pull-you.. NEVER getting intimate to NORMAL degree but never being set free to move on and find yourself your god-given right to enjoy a normal, proper bloke who wants and can do a proper, normal relationship as leads to you having a happy life (AND a happy old age and death experience). I know a PSYCHIATRIST who's locked in with one of these types, ffs! She's not crap at relationships either! These types, make no mistake, are con merchants. It's not always MONEY they try to con out of you, who told you it was? They're virtuosos - repeat, virtuosos - at emotionally manipulating people! And that means, can even ensnare psychiatrists! Because a psychiatrist's *HEART* is not a psychiatrist. Only her head is. And you DON'T fall in love with your head. Geddit? Crap, my arse. YOU went in - be honest, now - wanting a REAL relationship (tick!) but one that would allow progress VERY SLOWLY (nnnneeh) so that you felt you had some control. Your only crime was naivety/lack of experience, not knowing the psychological limitations, specifically that there IS no progress with this type. Well, maybe when he hits 70 and realises even he's going to die, but even then... The proof there's nothing wrong with you is the very fact, here you are, WANTING MORE/BETTER. Get it? Also in the fact, here you are, WANTING STRAIGHT, ABOVE-BOARD, HONEST TWO-WAY COMMUNICATION and believing you can rely on your mouth. Yes, you should be able to. BUT NOT WITH A CON MAN. Or would you try to have a rational, reasonable conversation with a fox? And here we have TG, showing proof that he's a straight-up guy too, because he, quote, doesn't like games (= is crap at them), refuses to play them, even plays FWB-ing itself in honourable ways - demonstrating that it's NEVER *what* you do but the way that you do it (intention is everything) - and so, accordingly, likewise thinks vocal discussion will work because it would work with HIM! But that makes him naiive too! Or maybe not naiive but certainly not savvy to the point of having been fast enough to have got with the programme of where I was coming from, until now ("Haaaaaaaa-le-lujlia!"). Wise up, people. There be full-blown snakes in them there hills. Not everyone is as healthy, upstanding, straight-as-a-die as you two! Are you aware, for example, that there are websites that TEACH (bitter or mal-formed) men how to con women so they can use them as foc prostitutes? I know snakes. I'm a snake catcher ("rarr!" LOL). First up - if you're such a diamond, PT, that he wants to remain (cough!) friends then how come he's to all intents (cough!) chucked you in the first place? And for what? Liking him so much you, please, sir, want some more??? Error, Does Not Compute (and don't tell me 'job' - PRRRTHTHTHT! to 'job/busy'. There are men out there MORE busy than him who are MARRIED. Coo, fancy that.) Here's what he's going to do. If his sneaky little attempt to get YOU to come scurrying back to where you're hook-able again - before you've had a chance to detach - by posting that profile including the deliberate slights and insults aimed specifically at you, fails to yield the result, he'll wait 2 weeks and then find some excuse to have to phone you and subtly - always subtly as leaves you to hear what you WANT to hear and what you THINK you're hearing (so that he can always turn around and say he never promised you a rose garden), tell you that "NOOOOOO-thing compares...No-THING compares...2U"... ...whence back you go, as TVOR put it, "falling" back into old ways because 'yeah, I know I said I'd see you more than once in a blue moon but excuse-excuse-excuse, next time, soon...'. So, in short, - YES, Paige, you gottit! Swim through the pain (it never lasts half as long as you fear it will anyway), TO the other side and out, and go get yourself a real one. Or play him back - cleverer, with my help - to where he'll be the one falling to his knees proposing ready to Hari Kari himself if you refuse him? But why bother. I USED to bother because I didn't want a relationship, ugh, ew, get it off of me, LOL. Ever. Fool that I was. And the moral of this (pant-pant!) story is this: though you may in life find yourself temporarily wheelchair bound and logically hook up with another wheelchair user so that you can heal and emerge from your chairs together, largely in unison - make sure HIS is a temporary paralysis as well. How can you tell? Answer: *Actions*. Actions only. Actions, actions, actions, actions, ACTIONS. They're all you've got. Because people's mouths, to any and all degrees, have the ability to *lie*. So if his whole attitude and behaviour is geared towards (allegorically) self-harming by shooting up with Heroin to the degree where (misery loves company) he'd offer to share HIS stash and inject YOU - just because you happened to have *asked* him to - rather than refusing through (actions!) being a gentleman who'd NEVER help someone else self-harm no matter HOW short-term convenient or useful the woman happened to at that point deem it, then - walk away. Don't run. That shows fear and lack of confidence in your willpower alone to protect yourself. Just walk. Tell him you've decided against because, actually, you didn't wanna say anything before but BOY, does he have rotten stinky fish breath, UGH! (;-D) and give the next poor sucker a chance. Still... You're wiser now, aren't you. :-) And even to the point where (Tick!) already, other previously unnoticed little clues are going Ping-ping-ping-ping-ping! (like his profile name). See, nice guys don't have to TELL you they're nice guys. Where's the need when their constant *behaviour* says it for them? (Actions!) PS: One in 6 people is PD-ed these days. Meaning, everyone knows one. Great, eh? As if dating wasn't minefield enough!

Am I complimented or insulted in that post? Perhaps a little of both. He's still frequenting the original site we met on. He's also sent me a message on it. Fairly benign - so I can read into it what I will? I haven't answered I havent even opened it but then admittedly I haven't deleted it either. So he never managed to wait two weeks lol! The scary thing is that I've been there before, but didn't realise it till now. 26 years ago with first serious bf and sometime fiance, he proposed then dumped me then asked me back but can we take it slow, and so on for 3 years. The ex fiance is now married with 3 kids but occasionally still comes chasing after me. When hes not getting along with wifey. So messed up! I'm intrigued by the play him back comment how would that work? But yea he's clearly not worth the bother. So... For future reference with other people go by actions not words. Learning that v late in life. Dating these days is bloody hard work!

Good luck with it all, Paige! I'm going to be of no service at all when it comes to playing back, but look forward to any future posts and opinions you receive here. Definitely trust your gut and that feeling of "I've been here before" - pay attention. Also worth noting - people are different and actions and words mean different things depending on who you're dealing with. If it were black and white and as easy as that, then everyone would have gotten the message by now, yeah? We're not *all* just stupid. :D I definitely think that being willing to own where you're contributing to any dynamic that seems recurring in your life, is something to watch closely. My last offering is this - remember that it's (dating, life, whatever) only as complicated as we allow it to be. Our experience is driven by our *response* (very different from *reaction*) to what's within us colliding with what's presented to us externally. The difference between responding and reacting being, that in responding you are *aware* of what's coming from within you (history/DNA/Personality, etc) and how that's effecting your experience, and meeting that with the *awareness* of what's being presented to you externally, thereby offering you the ability to navigate very complicated situations in very uncomplicated ways. This provides you with an uncomplicated experience. Be well. Best, TF

No, fully complimented, slightly constructively critiqued. You can't be perfect. If you were it would mean your growth and development were complete/over..which would mean you had to be DEAD...in which case, you'd have more than just his problem of stinky fish breath, wouldn't you, LOL. "He's also sent me a message on it. " Yep, there you go. "So he never managed to wait two weeks lol!" No-no, the *phonecall* will be at (roughly) 2 weeks, and that's if you *don't* rise to this, his pithy bait. ...in which case: Question: Would he be able to tell if you opened it? See what I mean, though? NOT a gent. You were perfectly honest, fair, clear and comprehensive about WHY you wanted him to come clean if he weren't a shop that supplies anything YOU'RE wanting to buy (or newly ready to). So why isn't he understanding and accepting that in doing the decent thing of leaving you alone to get on with finding happiness whilst he finds another co- (his perception) self-harmer? Obvious answer: Because he doesn't give a toss whether you're happy or not. NOT A GENT! Also too lazy to do the leg work all over again for a (his perception) sh*g bag unless he really, really has to. Issue question: why don't you want/aren't you ready for a whole "oh my god there is a god!" relationship? Is it that you don't you believe they really exist? How would counter-playing him work? Oh, in various ways: dodging/side-stepping, boomerang-ing, longer-range manipulating (i.e. long con), counter-manipulating...you name it, I could write a bloody book on it! But only if you were Waynetta Slob with no hope of anyone better than him or he the only man left on the planet. In fact, even Waynetta's ways don't hamper her because she too has a counterpart - Wayne: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fb-f8CTafHs Dating has ALWAYS been bloody hard work. Because the perks are worth it (if you do it right). And nothing worth having comes easily or for free. However, we adapt to working hard and being rewarded hard like anything else, so it doesn't feel like hard work for very long. It just becomes your normal.

Beautifully (and always entertainingly) said, SoulMate.

Sorry, TF - *why* art thou boggingst off?

PS: Ta.

I'm going to assume that I understand your question -why did I post? I art boggingst off because responding in agreement/support of other posts and/or disagreement/offering other viewpoints is part of how one engageses (if one so chooses) in forums like this. As a moderator, it's your obvious right to remove any posts you want to. However, if you do, I hope an email is sent as to why it was removed so the error isn't made again in the future. Also, at this point it's just plain good fun to see your metaphors, insights and language. I won't even try to guess what PS ta means. I assume it wasn't directed toward me. As always,

Yes he would be able to tell if I opened it. Supposedly he is on holiday for a couple weeks, we never did phone calls before so to call me, without my having your perspective, would have got my hopes up, now I will be on my guard. I used to believe omg relationships existed. For a very few of my friends they do. My ex-h and I split due to his cheating. I didn't think he was perfect by any means but we had been together 10 years, had a young child and it was a bolt out of the blue. Also it was with a supposed friend of mine. In the lead up to my discovering the affair he had been running me down telling me I was fat,ugly,boring,embarrassing, a nag etc. I was 30 when we split and as well as low self esteem I was in the awkward position of being at an age when most guys are wanting to settle down n have a family but I can't have more kids. I also have ocd and I guess I just felt until v recently that I had too much baggage than was fair to place on someone new. I'm now 42 with a 14 yr old, not some gorgeous skinny young thing! The ocd is managed, but for some guys my already being a mum/not being able to have more is still an issue. I have tried dating but not met anyone particularly suitable or that found me suitable. We women still have urges n needs too tho and I thought this fwb thing would suit. I'd had a guy before with this arrangement and we're still friends. I got surprised with who I thought was an intelligent funny sexy ambitious gentleman who turned out not to be.

Remove your posts? What the..!? Tom, you're misunderstanding me so frequently and to such a depth - *and* subsequently running instantly miles ahead at the speed of light with all these gross, negative misassumptions - that I can only assume you must be an American and it's a case of lost in translation. My question was, Why are you leaving ("bogging off"), which was in response to your indicating multiply to Paige that you were. And 'ta' is short for thank-you. If you're not sure, ask, please (or google for an English Colloqualisms dictionary). "Ta".

I actually tried google! Lol Obviously turned up nothing of help, so I rolled the dice and responded on the best understanding I could come up with. Who is the appointed translator again? I'll need to get her on speed dial. Thank you for the clarity because yes, I'm certain there are things lost in translation. Today I learned that Boggingst off = leaving (not running off at the mouth) I won't take up space on a post by asking, unless completely necessary, but I will discontinue responding based on a guess of what you meant. From America, Tom

(PS - Might as well get it out there now. Not only am I an American, but a New Yorker, so the grossest, negativest and misassumingest of ALL Americans! BWAhaha)

Paige, "Yes he would be able to tell if I opened it. Supposedly he is on holiday for a couple weeks, we never did phone calls before so to call me, without my having your perspective, would have got my hopes up, now I will be on my guard. I used to believe omg relationships existed. For a very few of my friends they do. My ex-h and I split due to his cheating. I didn't think he was perfect by any means but we had been together 10 years, had a young child and it was a bolt out of the blue. Also it was with a supposed friend of mine. In the lead up to my discovering the affair he had been running me down telling me I was fat,ugly,boring,embarrassing, a nag etc. I was 30 when we split and as well as low self esteem I was in the awkward position of being at an age when most guys are wanting to settle down n have a family but I can't have more kids. I also have ocd and I guess I just felt until v recently that I had too much baggage than was fair to place on someone new. I'm now 42 with a 14 yr old, not some gorgeous skinny young thing! The ocd is managed, but for some guys my already being a mum/not being able to have more is still an issue. I have tried dating but not met anyone particularly suitable or that found me suitable. We women still have urges n needs too tho and I thought this fwb thing would suit. I'd had a guy before with this arrangement and we're still friends. I got surprised with who I thought was an intelligent funny sexy ambitious gentleman who turned out not to be." 1. In that case...Don't encourage him in terms of making him think you're dying without him and receptive to his silly mock advances. Take a long time yet not TOO long it open it (because you're now so busy-busy-busy and he's gone to the back of the lengthy queue despite you're not sat there trying to kid him you're insta-over him either (which would equal running rather than walking away). Reiterate it or paste it in here (with appropriate censorship) and we'll take it from there in terms of whether and what you should respond with. You're in recovery ward in traction, you don't need someone trying to constantly drag you back out of bed. YOU'RE in control now, not him. Go listen to Gloria Gaynor's "I Will Survive" and sing along angrily. Anger is your strength- and power-generator at this stage, particularly as a significant portion of sadness and angst hitches a secret ride out with it. So try to get as indignantly angry as you can. Anger ist (sometimes) gut. :-) Try this: He used you as a free-of-charge, high-class prossie. You imagine how much money you'd have accrued had you had benefit of that entitlement to know and accordingly charged hourly to suit. To date, he owes you HOW MUCH? Yet what were you paid? 2. Yes, he never phoned *before*. But back then he didn't NEED to, did he. Desperate is as Desperate does. (A man can be desperate to get back an FWB same as he can a true loved-one, especially if he can't - and he can't - handle rejection and wants additionally to get you back in order to 'take THAT!') And depending on what dissatisfying crumbs you toss via whatever reply to his message, then like anyone trying but failing to sneak in through tapping pathetically on the back door or ground floor windows, at some point he'll be forced to try the (wait for it) FRONT DOOR. The point is not taking the call, it's cutting off under-the-table avenues thus speeding-up the inevitable. Quicker you get to deal with this, quicker you can be free. IF he makes an offer of promotion, genuinely, you'll be in a position to present the type of fair demands list that you deserve. It's doubtful but for YOUR benefit you should have all options at your choosy disposal to do with what you will because that's fast-tracked empowering. 3. They do exist, I am that soldier, I'm not special, lucky, etc. and nor are your friends - just mentally hard-working and determined (warts 'n all). You just have to be ready (had ENOUGH nonsense!) to do things the right way as closely as possible by the book and instincts (fear-free and self-respect-filled) until such time as you get to mutually customise to suit your individual personalities, beliefs, preferences... which means you secretly test-drive them with a beady eye and NEVER float off with the Honeymoon fairies as lets him sneak in bad habits that become the norm whilst you're out for the blissful count. E.g., I catch the spiders, he'll happily put the hoover round. If you know your healthy *base* gender-led positions and never stray for too long away from them, you can jump on and off them and swap roles at will and to suit life's demands and situations whereby you have a relationship between two, true equals in terms of worth (despite you're an apple and banana twosome). Hard to nutshell it but I can give you more ins and outs (oo-er, matron!) as we go. Basically, it's about team spirit, 50/50 input overall and 70:30 light to dark ratio as a minimum and 90:10 if you give it your all. Hub and I have 95:05 on 'sunny' days and 80:20 on cloudy/rainy days. With ex-prat it was 60:40 down to 20:80 but... have kid and vow under belt = will stay. 4. "he had been running me down telling me I was fat,ugly,boring,embarrassing, a nag etc." Gosh, how unhappy was his relationship with himself through you, to kick the cat so copiously and viciously! But they have to demonise you to get around the taboo-transgressing guilt barrier, and pull you down to their level to feel equal/worthy and get you toeing their line, so I wouldn't take much notice of that. You, missus, are so gorgeous not even an FWB-er wants to replace you despite you'd think he so easily could. Look UNDER the surface to the actions-actions-actions. 5. Women with low self-esteem don't really grasp what's so WRONG about the poor ways they get treated, let alone baulk and complain. You have to convince THEM it's unacceptable. ("Awww, but that's just what men are like, isn't it" is one of their typical sayings, along with, "Well, at least he doesn't knock me about or anything".) Motherly protective instinct and a massive vow make for a HUGE barrier to leaving! Seem as low self-esteemed by how you dare not make a harpy rackety rant as much as you like but the ACTION of coming onto a forum says it all. By the way - did I mention you're free to let that anger out now? :-) Also: you never had a pick from ALL the men out there to begin with because they're not all your genetic type as expresses as Pow! chemistry, only a section of them. Your inabiilty to sprog just CHANGES your target market out of that whole pool, it doesn't mean there's any less of a head-count because you get to pick from men who don't WANT (and can't have) kids/more kids, whereas if you could they would be the ones excluded. See? Never 'worse', just different. Plus there are upsides to everything, nothing is wholly positive or negative. Same goes for OCD (becoming more and more common in line with more and more stress). So many illusions and myths out there (usually for monetary gain or unfair control purposes.) And when you believe them, you mentally negatively self-prophesize. Switch your attitudes and what you attract will switch to suit. 6. A man compatible with your chemical make-up with equal but maybe different (maybe not) baggage will result in, nobody is abnormal around here. :-) The ancient folks who, pre-money and unhealthy societies, had the time and head-space to see straight said it best: Jack Spratt could eat no fat, His wife could eat no lean. And so you see Between them both They licked the platter clean. Your male counterparts are out there complaining of the exact same things as you, as we speak. And he'll HATE skinnybizces and love and be mightily turned-on by feminine sqidginess. 7. It doesn't work to pay attention only to one need or doesn't work for long enough - as you now know. Plus you were all the while recovering thus starting to get more of an appetite back. You kept him too long out of merely not recognising he was just a stepping stone, not the end destination stone itself. Now you're available again, your counterpart is in your same position or is about to be or was weeks/months ago. Fate's keeping him busy and distracted in order to keep him available whilst being manoeuvred in your direction (as are you his) so that WHEN (not if) your paths cross and you bump into one another, you're both a case of Right Person, Right Place, Right Time. This is how it happens/how it's best expressed, I've seen it and now lived it, too many times, TOO MANY times to deny it despite I was once a die-hard predominantly scientific not spiritual type. There's the scientific explanation or the spiritual or religious or whatever. They're just descriptions that suit varying mental wavelengths, that's all. The truth remains irrespective, whether you're aware of it or believe it or not. And you've just earned Karmic brownie points for having had the strength to prove yourself ready for more/better AS WELL as shunted yourself from one circuit route on the board to another (like changing trains) despite there's only end terminus for all routes. Be ready to cash those in and you'll be religiously grateful that this happened NOW and happened at all. I guarantee it. I'm qualified to. And I'm almost bored silly from constantly saying, 'Told ya!'. 8. "I got surprised with who I thought was an intelligent funny sexy ambitious gentleman who turned out not to be" Don't we all! And no doubt, so, once, did he! (woman, I mean, LOL). You have a choice in how you react to these events. You can go bitter and twisted and vow to be the Master next time (extreme left of the spectrum) or you can misconstrue and try even harder to be nicer next time thus become a perfect Slave type (extreme right) or you can do your grieving properly and thoroughly and gladly so that you come out wise enough to emerge as that perfectly balanced (for you) and fair-minded individual as attracts another Egalitarian, THUS end up with a 50/50 equal, mature, properly willing soulmate, both of you the boss... a true TEAM of two bosses. See-saw, Margery Daw, Jacky [/Johnny] shall have a new master, S/He shall earn but a penny a day [crumbs], Because s/he can't work [heal] any faster. It really is not rocket science. Or put it it another way: it is rocket science but don't rocket scientists find rocket science easy-peasy where once they were bemused and intimidated? Anything is easy and easily achievable if you want it enough and always diligently do life's homework (in manageable, progressive portions aka steps). I'm all the way up here and you're all the way back there despite it's the exact same path - for everyone (plus it's way past bedtime with hub having fallen asleep watching some he-manly action film, meaning I'm typing in 'shorthand')...so am I making sense to you?

Wow long post so I'll respond carefully. 1. Message says "Hey you...just getting ready to head off here x..." Just realised the last ellipse is cos there's more to the message can I open it yet? He means heading off on hols. 2. Recently via a whole other thing ended u reading stuff on trauma bonding and NPD and it really hit home. The trauma bonding stuff quite scary as I thought I was resisting my childhood not reacting to it - more fool me!! 3. In his mind he 'paid in kind' I think with gifts he got me. Stupidly at time I thought this was sweet (OK OK I know better now) 4. You're suggesting I tell him what I'm actually wanting in a relationship even though I know now I'd be a fool to have one with him? 5. Ex now does same to wife no 2 who was ow and is currently being cheated on. So I sorta knew it was his issue not mine. 6. I was kidding myself I WASN'T my mother then. 7. Still finding it really hard to meet any decent guys not sure what to do about this. On various dating sites and trying to widen social circle but no luck so far.I don't have stupidly high expectations but the men do. Seriously early 40's and expecting to meet and date gorgeous party girls who've never been married or got kids when they're no oil paintings themselves and have their own baggage?? 8.'the right person is out there' getting harder to believe after 12 years of unwanted singledom. 9.now what? Wondering whether to go back to counselling but can we really change 40 odd years of relationship hardwiring? Again, can I read his message now?

More tomorrow, but: "Again, can I read his message now?" If I understand you correctly, meaning you've read a message first half including his notifying you he's headed off on holiday? NOPE. Not yet. Why would you when he's headed off on holiday and you've got more bigger, more pressing and ON-duty fish to fry? ;-) 'See' you tomorrow.

Ha-ha - 'more bigger'. (Yup, SM's actually only an highly precocious, six-year-old genius. LOL) I obviously meant, 'more, bigger, more pressing...', ach - BED TIME!

Right... No, you don't open it yet. You wait until he's into his holiday a few days at the very least. Absence makes the heart, i.e. in his case, other bodily bits, fonder, so you want to crank him up with elongated rejection (because he's not used to being outfoxed and thwarted). ...Reason being, NOT to date him again ...unless, as I say, he's by then blubbing at your feet, having truly realised what he had and mis-used before it was gone (but that'll take a good 2-6 months by which time you probably won't *want* him back). No, it's to be get to hear him have to ask so that you get to, yet again, HEAR YOURSELF saying, 'Nair...We, Her Royal Highness, do *not* frrrrraternise with peasants who stupidlay offer us crrrrumbs instead of Foie Gras and Cavaiar, and peasant is hwhat yoooou prrroooooved yourself to beeee. (Take him away to the tower!)'. It's really good for your confidence and progress in terms of *becoming* that royal highness thus attracting princes who wouldn't have been drawn to you previously due to the fact Like attracts Like which (includes psychological self-developmental league status) and you simply weren't at their same stage before. You're moving up a psychological league, in other words, to where a whole new target market group hang out. The symptom of that being your having the nerve/strength to dump him at his present level and keep him dumped (unless he genuinely steps up). You're ready for QUALITY, now, right? But for now... ""Hey you...just getting ready to head off here x..."" Oh, if I had a Pound for every dumped player-type ex's email I personally had received or seen sent to others that began, 'Hey you'... They can't even be original. It's supposed to give you a sense of being exclusively special and deeply endeared to them. Ignore it. Secondly, what business is it of YOURS any more WHERE he's going? Just for fantasy laughs - wouldn't you just love to respond thus: "Where is it you're going - Mars? One way ticket, is it?". No, re your childhood, if the imprinting was very heavy and got compounded by later boyfriend choices then the reactive 'pendulum swing' we naturally do after the death of a relationship - deliberately trying to seek out the opposite type yet when having failed to read certain qualities correctly - is human-typically over-extreme. Example: ex-husband was gregarious and insensitive = new bloke is shy, quiet, man of few words thus must be more sensitive. Nope. *Actions* prove sensitivity, not volume or animated-ness level. Incomplete or slightly off contextualising. You see it on the macro level, as well: the 70s featured less-holds-barred social interacting in terms of personal and group boundaries and, increasingly, political-correctness has been growing too big for its tree in reaction, meaning now you can't even sneeze for fear of social criticism or arrest. Once that over-reaction has hit its full maximum, its full arc, people will then rear up and rebel (again, just as slow-mo, but which we're already seeing creeping in), thereby taking the NEXT pendulum swing a little less farther from the left due to loss of kenesis (societal learning/finetuning). Then when that particular element has found its 'stop' position, something new gets put into the pot (e.g. internet usage and how it can affect/effect) which then is the thing to start swinging (LEFT-RIGHT, left-right, barely oscillate, stop in the middle). If you're aware this is how you constantly react to any qualities and situations you found were anathemas in your last relationship, however, and you've sat and thought thoroughly through the playback in your head regarding who did what/when/how and how reacted, so that you know where you made mistakes, he made mistakes, both in tandem made mistakes (interactionally), or to what degree he was just simply the wrong type/had the wrong qualities or quality settings for you, then the resultant, involuntary mental swing (what degree of type you'll find yourself attracted by) will likewise automatically become more moderate. Less of a swing, someone more like all the best bits of your mum and dad and exes with lesser bad (for you) bits or some completely new bits. Your personal happier medium. Your Mr Right (the optimum one of "the ones"). (You aren't necessarily your mum but you probably chose blokes with too many ad-hoc dad facets thus found yourself repeatedly reacting then habitually behaving and thinking like your mum, repeating her patterns.) The more reflecting you do, the more likely that is, because when you reflect and contextualise both consciously and subconsciously like that during the grieving period, what you're actually doing is altering your software (Run "I LIKE BIG MUSCLES/DON'T LIKE MISERS" programme). So don't ever try not to think about it all because it's upsetting. The more you swim around in the pain, anyway, the faster but yet still thoroughly you grieve and learn/finetune your choices. So it's no good reading up on the processing you're supposed to be undergoing if, even unawares, you're avoiding the optimum conditions for or not quite completing the processing. All Or (may as well be) Nothing. Get more sleep. You'll get a bona fide grieving process authentically speeded up, no cut corners thus gaps in processing/concluding. The 'back-room boys' in your head do their emotional data sheet reading, duplicating, cross-referencing, department copying, updating, then filing or archiving when you're asleep and out of their way and from under their feet (despite your consciousness is another department to receive the latest memo). If you're 'lucky' you get to have a peek and recall that production-line activity on waking, in visual/audial symbolisms format. DREAMS. Oh, and cry or rant a lot as well to discharge the byproductive waste to keep the back room clean and tidy, especially of residual detritus. Obviously I've used lay-friendly analogising and visual conceptualising here but, you seem to have a Human User Manual-friendly mind so - ...sense? Lastly for now: wrong dating site. Try others until you find the right one for you OR give yourself your full faculty-based advantages by not denying yourself all the important non-verbal communication signs and signals until it's too late... a la, 'Er...So pleased to meet you, uglier and less sophisticated twin brother of the bloke I've been chatting to for the last 2 weeks'. Like speed-dating. You can better tell when they're lying if you're face-to-face with them during the initial interviews. I mean, you wouldn't hire someone for your office after having first- and second-interviewed them only by email and a quick phone chat. So why would you deny your company - Heart Inc - the same courtesy? "'the right person is out there' getting harder to believe after 12 years of unwanted singledom." Tough. Doesn't make it so. And keeping your faith under duress is part of the invisible gauntlet run as ends in that rewards. Noddalodda people know that. It's not about looks, station, situation, anyway. It's about CONFIDENCE through liking YOURSELF and everything connected with you, including being proud of your mummy tummy and the little sproglets that caused it. With self-confidence and the healthy amount of pride, you could literally have two heads and all that would happen was this: "...AND - she doesn't just have TWO beautiful eyes but FOUR... So that's why I'm so incredibly into her!" Woody Allen. Dawn French. Knickers thrown at them. YOU do the math. :-) These no oil paintings don't give a stuff about looks compared to good heart, except when out in public for 'see my male status by the appearance of the woman I have attracted/managed to bag' male-male competitive posturing. And it's not even looks as such, it's how much ATTENTION you've given yourself in terms of preening, etc., as shows how much you like and love yourself as proves animal health of mind = great offspring-rearing skills and ol' man nurturing/nursing skills into his old age once those kids have flown. Because men want their genetic legacies to LAST, not get killed or neglected to death by a fruit loop, just because she wore mascara and Prada. Media might brainwash them some in that direction and/or exploit that natural urge by harnessing and warping it, but nature trumps nurture (now fact), meaning, the former in its pure form wins through once they're ready to settle down. What these no oil paintings have is SELF-CONFIDENCE. Hence, Woody Allen. You must not do yourself down. You are someone/s out there's Angelina Jolie (lippy jam rolly poly, LOL) (sorry, had to be done). PS: "Again, can I read his message now?" Muu-uu-uum? Can I have a biscuit, can I have a biscuit, muuuuu-uuuum? Can-I-have-a-biscuit,-can-I-have-a-biscuit... NAO. Go an' do yer 'homework'! LOL

"Soz" - forgot to add something re Right Person, Right Place, Right Time (and you at your optimum attractiveness/magnetism): The very best Place to meet Mr Right No. Whatever (hopefully and potentially No. 1) is when you're somewhere where you're engrossed in doing something you really, really enjoy (preferably always have and always will). It makes you appear 10 times more attractive. I met hubster on my fave European beach. It turned out it was his fave European beach as well. I adore beaches. So does he. We're beach mad. And it showed. So - when the time's right - what's your fave place or pastime?

Tsk. I'm obviously getting tired: Typo: Not, 'get killed or neglected to death by a fruit loop, just because she wore mascara and Prada'. I meant, get killed or neglected to death by a fruit loop, just because she was facially pleasingly symmetrical with a model-like body.

Right, it's been a whole week since he site-mailed you. You can open it now. :-) You didn't open it before now because, being altogether serious in what you said to him about why you were stopping the so-called relationship - you went back onto a dating site. You appeared to newbies to be a brand new member, a new opportunity. You present to veterans as a woman newly out of a relationship. You had novelty value atop intrinsic value, and because you're attractive both physically and personality-wise, you got inundated by winks and emails (busy-busy-busy). Now that the novelty factor has worn off, you're experiencing a more manageable flow of attention which gives you (a tiny bit of) time to remember he exists and, oops-heh, sent you a message which he probably has been waiting for a reply to. Hence you now open it. So...What does it say?

Message didn't say any more than I could already see. Ie. "Hey you ... Just getting ready to head and off here x" so bit of an anticlimax. Now what?? He'd not been on site for 2 days but then was on around 1am today so he's likely overseas somewhere without much internet availability.

Wow, yeah, cheers for the crumb, ex-FWB. No. Don't respond to that ATOM. Again, the only befitting responses to that statement would be, 'Yeah, AND...??' and, 'So WHAT?!'. He's sounding like the ex-girlfriend who rings the ex-boyfriend and says this: "I'm only phoning to tell you I'm GLAD you chucked me because I've got [this cool thing] happening/happened, so I don't GIVE A SH*T, hah!". Bloke reads that and thinks, 'Yeah, luv. Evidently'. Nope, don't respond. That was a fingernail scratch at your basement window before running off. (Ahh... poor bubbie... mummy didn't ever show him how to press a doorbell. ;-p) The important point from your end is that you'll only be seen to have opened it 7 days later. :-) But let's face it: he AND that relationship was a bit of an anti-climax, wasn't it. Now what? Nothing. Start cruising and having fun with other blokes on that site and others. As for him? Do you even know for a fact (and I do mean fact) he's gone anywhere rather than is just sat at home pretending and deliberately abstaining to make it look real?

Site we met on, hmm how do I make this clear? Bit more in your face then just 'casual dating'. He's been on daily last few days no more messages he's not looked at my profile, I'm gagging to look at his to see if he's had any success. Think he's still on normal dating site I'm not on it any more but on a couple others. Nobody appealing so far. My profile hidden on original site but I wanna show it again maybe. I've joined a few meet up groups to get out IRL. My favourite thing to do is read and place to be library. Not ideal for meeting people. Feeling frustrated right now. Don't know for a fact he's away but there was plenty of evidence at his place of his being well travelled and I do think he was telling truth on this one.

Are we talking something along the lines of "I want a sh*g dot com"? How on earth would you be able to tell whether or not he's had any success just by looking at his profile? Don't, by the way! Of course he hasn't made any more peeps. You haven't responded to the first one yet, have you. And this is a guy who knows that all good things come to those that wait. He thinks you'll crack. And look at precisely what it is you're right now considering. That's right - CRACKING. Don't! That you crack too easily is precisely why you're IN this mess, Stanley! Don't do a THING. Nothing suddenly new or different WHATSOEVER. This frustration is a mental gateway. You'll pass through it soon enough. And you'll be exceptionally glad you did. NEW TOOL IN YOUR TOOLBELT. Anyway, I have plans. (No, I'm not telling you yet, you'll have to be patient. :-p) "Don't know for a fact he's away but there was plenty of evidence at his place of his being well travelled and I do think he was telling truth on this one." Don't know for a fact. That's what I thought. Oh, and just because he likes to travel, doesn't mean he did this time. So what actual basis (aside from wishful thinking) do you have for thinking he was telling the truth on this one?

PS: Have you looked into speed-dating yet? Everyone I know has said it's far superior to interweb sites (stands to reason) *and* is a total riot, as in anywhere between immense fun and downright hilarious. Try it, Sam-I-Am, you might LIKE in-person Jeds and Sams. :-)

Eh-HEUGH! (sorry - tickly throat)

Not quite 'I want a shag.com' lol but yea pulls no punches and I was OK with that. I still don't know if I'm ready for a "serious" relationship. When I read profiles on dating sites the ones only wanting 'casual relationship' are basically just looking for sex (reading between the lines) but the ones ticking the 'serious relationship' are way too intense. Get the feeling they're the type ready to propose by 3rd date!! Yikes! Where's the in between guys?? The reason I could tell from his profile is cos there's an option on the site to 'review' the people you've met, and to display the friends you have on the site. Yes I always crack too easily. I hate people keeping secrets from me and not good at keeping them. I hate not knowing. Fed up being single, valentines day approaching doesn't help with the shops full of red hearts!! Have plans to get out n about in real life. Still no joy on the sites. As for 'accidentally' meeting someone in real life, kinda hard when I struggle to even make platonic friends. Nobody I know likes the things I do. Which are fairly unusual and kinda geeky. This is why I thought he and I would e a good match, we had non sexual interests in common too.

Sorry for the delay - over-busy week this week! Why is it you seem to think your only options are websites? I call dating websites, hospital discos - injured meets the injured (which includes lazy and over-entitled). You might get lucky and bump into a visitor or someone who's wandered in out of ignorance, but otherwise... Think about what it says about a man if he doesn't want to go through all the steps in the natural process like they did before the web existed: going out with his mates or on his own, catching a woman's eye, finding whatever excuse to strike up a conversation, asking for her number, calling her, asking for a date, then another and calling her nightly in the interims (and repeat), meanwhile showing her his best sides/skills/talents/mettle and being on his best behaviour...ETCETERA? Also, you're not SUPPOSED to be ready for a serious relationship! EVER! The point is, and how it's supposed to work naturally (rather than all this contrived 'let's go shopping for a mate' nonsense) to give the relationship the best chance possible, is that you, the woman are anywhere between 'Could be nice, yeah, maybe/not bothered, really' to 'Ugh, no thanks!'. Then, depending on what amount of challenge the bloke prefers, his chasing and wooing is what starts to slowly but surely bring you round until you're there going, 'Yeh-yeh-yeh!'. Think female bird who sits there watching the male bird activating his impressing-the-female programme by doing set, ritualistic movements and dances, bringing pleasing objects to lay at her feet, etc., until her mind as has an innate checklist goes, 'That's the one!', whereupon they mate and build a nest. The chemistry and the compatibility between how you both were raised and taught and see your futures combined with your personality does the rest. But she doesn't ever sit there, after just one shiny pebble is deposited, going, 'Ah, thad'll do', does she. And - SIT there. During that chase/woo phase, she just *responds* - which in her case is, not flying off disinterested. Once he's proved he's a serious candidate, THAT'S when she starts hopping over to him/letting him hope over to her and rubbing beaks with him. Okay, it doesn't really HURT to go in open to ending up in a relationship, but it should be more, open to DATING - in order to HAVE FUN - so it does, obviously, remove some of the challenge PLUS does mean you'll more likely let a bloke off the hook if ever he stuffs up over anything he should know better over, which means less feminine armour of ice to melt before then heating her increasingly up, which means less impressing/persuading skills required, equals, man who didn't have to bust his gut. And if he didn't have to bust his gut when busting his gut featured on the schedule (Chase, Woo, Honeymoon), then he certainly won't have to AFTER he's firmly got you, will he. He busts a gut to earn enough money to buy himself a f**k-off car, doesn't he? Do you see HIM not washing, polishing, servicing, fixing, enhancing (pimping), proudly parading, downright constantly MOONING over his shiny new Beemer including taking endless photos of it? That's what you DO when you've had to work effing, perseveringly hard (including surmounting any obstacles) to earn the right to 'own' something, isn't it. Geddit? The best way to meet someone is on common ground. The place/location/pasttime you MOST LOVE IN THE WORLD being in/at/doing. As it is for you, this location or activity speaks volumes about the moral, conditioned-in/encouraged-out attitudes and personality style and settings of the person concerned, it being just ONE of the myriad ways their whole persona gets to express itself. For starters, when two bodies are in or doing a place/activity they adore, they are at their most attractive, FACT. So that's a great head-start/leg-up AND A LEGITIMATE SHORT-CUT. It's not cheating (on the process). Cheating is not another form of winning but of losing. May as well try to make scrambled eggs by cutting out the whisking bit, eh. "Yes I always crack too easily. I hate people keeping secrets from me and not good at keeping them. I hate not knowing." So does everyone when the information is crucial to their knowing how best to self-protect emotionally. Here's the thing about whatever style of abuser, accidental or deliberate: they are insecure. As such, they understand insecurities, including yours. They do or pepper whatever they do and say with things that activate or exacerbate your insecurities...so that, now in Fight/Freeze/Flight mode, you are meanwhile PROGRAMMED *NOT* TO ALLOW YOURSELF THE LUXURY OF CONSCIOUS THOUGHT BUT JUST ACT INSTINCTIVELY ACCORDING TO YOUR FEARS AND SURVALIST PROGRAMMES! Whereas, you should be thinking and behaving according to the dating and prospering programmes - ALL CYLINDERS AVAILABLE. In f/f/f mode, you can manage only fractional split-second thoughts wholly inadequate for dealing with complexities and intricacies, i.e. being CLEAR on what you're being presented with and clear about the most self-enhancing (dignified and sensible) way to react and respond. It makes you stupid, in other words. Like an animal without human level intelligence but which is trying to deal with or avoid human level intelligence. Game over. He wins. Should be about winning but it is for types or situationals like him. But here's the thing: you grit your teeth and pump that endurance and patience muscle and you'll come out like Arnie. "Have plans to get out n about in real life." Oh. LOL. Didn't read ahead. Well - GOOD!/tick! What things do you like doing, specifically? "This is why I thought he and I would e a good match, we had non sexual interests in common too." Yeah. But you had the base foundation missing, called, 'I want or would be perfectly open to a dating relationship becoming something deeper'. Look out for that statement in all its variations (but don't judge by it alone because you have a much fuller checklist to tick off) on the websites. That'll help. Because, frankly, hospital disco guests need all the help they can get! :-p 44p, please. :-)

PS: Keys: Ready Willing Able Put another way: "So he's already into me. But WHAT is into me and for what POINT?". Also: "I am a Brazil nut. I am pleasing and interesting to hold, not wounding or irritating, am largely soft, cool, smooth but with interesting outer features, and of satisfying and manageable 'size', 'weight', 'shape', thus am alluring. But I come closed, albeit openable. I do not open myself, I have to be opened. I do yield that easily under even positive pressure - not via just one squeeze of the nutcracker, nor one half-hearted squeeze, nor over-forceful squeeze, nor, certainly, if subjected to the wrong opening implements...and never just because the aficionado talks nicely to me, including statements about how he really, really wants me. It's not my fault (resentment is futile thus doesn't occur), it's just my nature and the fact that I'm obviously a prime and optimally ripe specimen. As such, I have many facets and avenues of approach in order to become the owner of my inner goodies/beauty (which are enhancingly nutritious as well as tasty). I therefore require thought-out strategizing (how intriguing and challenging!) as well as INVESTMENT of time & effort, walking away from which, the nut-aficionado, with each try, will find *increasingly* hard to do. I am therefore overall FUN AND ENGAGING to handle, open and 'consume'".

He's now come off the site we originally met on but is still on dating site and possibly other hook up sites

Yes. So that you'll panic that he's seemingly not monitoring you any more as well as believe his impression of being ready for bigger and better business. How are you feeling at the mo? And how are you newly feeling about the relationship now that you have the aid of hindsight?

Soulmate is doing an excellent job here so I'm not putting in my twopenneth, just a point of observation - if libraries are a bad place to meet people (especially with the no talking kind of atmosphere) can I suggest book club? Plenty of talking and even if you don't meet Mr right, could it be so awful to talk about books and make new friends? :)