Toxic dad

Hi I have a very confusing relationship with my dad. While growing up he was very controlling and abusive towards my mother. When I challenged him he put it down to his gambling addiction and said he can not control himself but is trying to stop. He gave me preferential treatment over my 3 sisters. In return I was suppoesed to be his friend. I was suppose to be the perfect one who was to help him get out of his financial mess. Once I graduated and started working I was told to try and find a high payed job so that 'WE' can be on the same level as 'Other People'. The situation got to a point where I had to pretend to be earning more than I actually was so that my dad would feel better. Soon after I got married and after my sisters moved out the expection got worse. I had to fake a contract worth £500,000 so that he calms downs and gets happy and leaves me alaone. He then wanted to go back to his native country with my mum for about six months, however she didnt want to go. Once again I had to lie to him and agreed to give him money so that he can buy a car and build a bigger house out there. He eventaully left and once he got there he would call on a daily basis and ask for my mum to fly over and help him take care of his mum. Eventally my mum had encough and said to him that she doesn't want him and thereby making him homeless in the uk. He then turned to and cried and said i was his last hope and told me talk to my mum to allow him back and not to get a court injuction. Eventually he stopped asker for her come over but insisted that I sponsor his mum to come over to the UK to live with us. Please advice what I should do?

So basically, out of the four other females, you were the one who dared (unexpectedly) to go "RARR!" at him so - surprised and intimidated - he tried to placate you and get you on side by making you his favourite. My, isn't he a manipulative man. And, I'm sorry to say, a coward. Who is it cares about The Joneses? Your mum? ...with your dad presuming that argument would appeal to you too? Clearly his manipulation worked because equally clearly you are NOT a keep up with the Joneses type and yet you did go along with his 'command', despite only pretending to. You say multiply that you 'had to' but...where was the gun pointed at your head? What you should do: come clean to him, thereby doing the very thing that you dad couldn't ever do. Lead by example, in other words, considering the real child and parent of the situation is him then you, respectively. It's all very well trying to take on what appears to be the Alpha male but if you haven't the Alpha female-ness to see it through with, you're scuppered. As you found out. You did NOT take him to task, you simply entangled yourself into his web (and no doubt took over from your mother). You're a grown woman now. That man who WAS your father (verb) is now such in name only, his NEW relationship-to-you status being, older friend, meaning, he can insist into his own knickers for all the good it'll do him. Alternatively, give him a taste of his own medicine and 'go floppy on the supermarket floor' (passive-aggressive). Passive-aggression is only a negative thing when done as a lazy first-ditch default. But in your case, it's not only warranted but sensible. So change your phone number and pretend you got cut off because you couldn't afford the bill, thanks to the long-running debts you ran up on his behalf. Let's see how he likes THEM apples! Or just be honest. Either/or, whatever you're capable of. Because the fact is this: your own father should never be a monkey on your back. And you need to get it off, like your mum did (thanks to you). I realise it'll be hard to get real and no-nonsense with your own dad but the fact is, he is not some poor little 8-year-old boy who needs to lean and parasite off of a woman whom in reality is far younger than him, let alone his own offspring. He is a grown man. If he's capable of relocating like that (in the process abandoning his wife) then he's certainly big enough and ugly enough to support himself AND HIS MOTHER, financially. If what's stopping him is his irresponsibility with money, that's HIS problem to put an end to, isn't it. And then HE can finance his return to UK with his mother and an abode for them both. Be free and live your life unhampered. No more playing rescuer to those who just pull you into the pit WITH them rather than using your hand to climb out.

Hi Soulmate Thank you for your advice. This was my first time sharing my issue so I was unable to make explain myself properly. I am a guy and I have three sisters. He gave me prefential treatment because he expected me to support him financially once I stared working he started taking money from me to support his addiction and also to cover the all household costs. I created to a plan to send him off to his native country because we just could not tolerate his anger and domination. He agreed to go there if I supported him financially and if my mum was to fly over to join him. we agreed just so that he leaves. Once he left we made many exuces to why mum could not join him. My mum never wanted to stay with him but was afraid of seeking a divorce for cultural. Since he left I purchased the house from local authority and now have 2 kids of my own. At one point I wanted to leave and move into a new city but my wife said no becausemy son was settled in his primary school. I have read up NARCISISTIC People and believe he fits the criteria but since I am not a mental health professional I can not say for sure. Please advice how best I should deal with this situation. Any help is appreciated

Oh, I'm so sorry! I got the impression you were a female because it's unusual for a bloke, especially when so young, to both challenge then caretake an older man like that (AND for a grown man to react to a challenge from the Beta male with, basically, smarmying). Unusual but, given your gender, impressive indication that you, matey, are most likely a *superb* dad. (Exclude the enabling part, though, would be my advice or the little darlings will, once they reach teenage especially, run rings around you.) And that, you should know, is what you are - or should I say 'were': a teenage carer to a parent with a disability. But, you being male, little wonder, then, that he felt it more sensible to try to get you on side rather than retaliate with aggression. He must have feared the possibility of coming out of a punch-up worse off. Tall and muscular for your age, were you? Or just very psychologically sure of yourself thanks to having for so long been forced to be the only real man of the house? But at least I know why his urging to earn big bucks worked on you. Because obviously that is of far greater concern, even these days, to a man - particularly a younger one who's been effectively forced to experience deprivation. And also, why your mother LET you take his focus from her to you (although you do realise it was her responsibility all along to deal with him or garner up her own strength reserves to leave him?). Well done, by the way! Seriously. That's excellent loyalty and protectiveness instincts. I'm impressed. It's TOO EASY, you see, to come out of that whole situation a carbon-copy of the abusive parent when they're your same gender, rather than the distinct opposite. Nice one! With that kind of strength, you'll be just fine now that you've reached the end of your tether, and no way will he manage to get the better of you. Anyway, good, so that's that cleared up and adjusted. But now we know he should have shown you 'preferential' treatment to begin with, not just in response to your having taken him on. And before the PC brigade start rattling their Health & Safety-checked cages, let's just be real here: yes, you love all of your kids equally, but that doesn't necessarily apply when it comes to feeling a special AFFINITY with one of them. Particularly when we're talking, only son. So. This man who just happened to be your dad, is that effed-up that he's a big fat user who doesn't give a fig about the Who, yes? All the household costs....Taking that amount of money from your own just-starting-out son. Disgusting behaviour! (Poor old you. It's not fair, is it. You get zero say about which ship you're plonked onto and, if either of its captains have issues, that's it, you're involved and affected whether you like it or not and no land or other ship to jump to. Oh, well... All I can tell you is that whatever entity exists out there (I call it Fate) obviously has you earmarked for something above-average which *calls* for such strength, with this your extra intense training. Every cloud has a silver lining, as they say. ONE day you'll be grateful, I know that much.) So that's another thing you need to grieve (or finish grieving?) over. I take it you didn't imagine he'd use however much of your funding with which to feed his addiction, meaning it was unintended and accidental enabling? "He agreed to go there if I supported him financially and if my mum was to fly over to join him. we agreed just so that he leaves." Clever. :-) *And* just desserts. After all, he spent his entire marriage letting not one, not two, not three, but FOUR people down, didn't he. What goes around, comes around, and often - as we see - at the hands of the victims, not just Fate. "Since he left I purchased the house from local authority" Okay - now you're just showing off, LOL. ;-) "At one point I wanted to leave and move into a new city but my wife said no becausemy son was settled in his primary school." OH. So you're forced to stay in the environment that keeps all these horrid memories refreshed? Well, maybe you could tilt the perspective on its head whereby the only reminders you focus on are those that pertain to your advanced strength and capability as a child and then a young man, and feel triggered only into pride? "I have read up NARCISISTIC People and believe he fits the criteria but since I am not a mental health professional I can not say for sure." Mm, well... Maybe you are, bar the 'professional' bit. Because I absolutely agree with you, I think you're spot-on. There is such a thing as natural-born, you know (and I can spot it in some of the people who advise on here). Think about it, you don't take the degrees and THEN feel like becoming something, do you, it's the other way around, meaning the nature pre-exists the nurture. What do you think natural psychologists and psychoanalysts - themselves emotional caretaker cogs of a certain wavelength in the giant machine of cogs - did before qualifications and professionalism were invented? So is this your calling - perhaps counselling child carers?...with you possessing that extra 'je ne sais quoi' from having had that vital, first-hand experience AND the less common mental wherewithal to have come out of the skanky wash apparently so sparkling clean AND having kids yourself already? I reckon life's giving you a giant hint here (and re-refer to 'every cloud'). So perhaps this is how you could turn those past and still-present lemons into lemonade, De Luxe, no less, as would, perversely, leave you GRATEFUL to your father (and your mother)? (What's your current career? Do you enjoy it whereby it makes you spring out of bed in the morning?) There is, however, always the question of chicken versus egg because substance addiction commonly can 'cause' personality disorders as equally as be but a symptom of it. Reactive versus innate. That would be for your mother to guess, assuming her marriage to him pre-dated his addiction or when it reached that critical peak? Maybe you could ask her? In terms of how to deal in the here and now with your dad's pestering. I, personally, would send him a letter, telling him that ever since he left, you and the others have had the time and space to put all of his past behaviour and treatment of his wife and children into its rightful perspective, and that although he'll always be your dad and you'll always love him, you are, for the sake of your own, your family's and his family's health, no longer prepared to let him behave as if he's *your* son or, indeed (telling it like it is) client of Bank of Son...because it's neither morally rightful nor healthy...That he is a grown man, older thus, anyone would suppose and expect, more wise and capable than you... that the natural order is, son leans on and takes nourishment of any kind from father, not the other way around (unless it's been *earned/generated*), meaning he's seriously unhealthy and needs professional help in order to throw his OWN monkey off his back (his addictive mentality) rather than keep sharing it around with those he is supposed to love, nurture, protect and cherish, to their ongoing detriment. Tell him that you're not prepared to be involved with him and his life (nor vice versa) until such time he can show he befits someone of his biological status and with whom its sensible to BE involved with. DON'T mention Personality Disorder or you'll be giving him reason to fear going for help. Let whatever eventual therapist encourage out or impart that dawning onto him gently over time. Frankly, if you (and your whole family) cutting off all contact 'until', doesn't provide him with all the incentive in the world to finally get his finger out of his a-hole, then, I don't know what would/could. Do you? Liver failure? Him ending up on the street? (Does that help?)

Wow. Your words are like gold dust to me thank you very much!

Don't mention it! :-) Is that it, then - you, all done and dusted?

Now I know that I shouldn't worry about sending him out there. I need to plan to keep in there away form my mum and myself. its going to be a challenge but I have no choice.

Well, that's what life's path is all about, isn't it - meeting and conquering challenges by overcoming one's fear and hesitancy over doing what needs to be done when it's the only right and sensible thing. That's what pumps your mental muscles, makes you stronger. Just remember, you'll be doing him a favour in the long run. He's on a ledge halfway down a deep, dark, muddy pit, neither free nor at rock bottom... sat there in limbo. No point in offering a kindly arm if he's already proven all he'd do is use it to pull you down with him rather than to climb out. So with that no longer an option, the kindest thing you can do is let him fall off to the bottom. Because then the only way is Up. A challenge he'll either have to meet and conquer = stronger, or give in to = end up ever weaker. It's *his* challenge, really, more than yours. But he MADE it yours when he pulled you slightly into his pit that first time, didn't he. So there you go - leave him that one and only option, make him finally have to face it like he should have years ago.

He has been told by my mum that she doesn't want him back. He then started crying and I felt bad. I also told him I will try to talk my mum into letting him back. I have been I am codependand of his. Amyone have any ideas as to how I can stop being his co dependand?

The time came when I could no longer intice/make him stay in pakistan. I felt guilty because he is a uk CITIZEN and its not my right to stop him. He recently started complaining of a have a mass under his ribs and also said he was suffering from eye problems. My mum is really scared of him and since she didnt go over to pakuistan she believes he will definitley have issued with her. We told him he isn't allowed back in my houese and that I'll find him a room somewhere else. He felt insulted and rejected the idea. When I said he has no choice he very angrily and reluctenly accpepted. He keeps on telling me he missed my kids and wants to spends his retirement with them. I try to tell him to put his mum first but he doesn't want to. Also I tell him he is 54 so hardly retirement age. He is flying back today. I am keeping my fingers crossed. Please let me know if I am doing the right thing or Not

" He then started crying and I felt bad." Cruel to be kind in the moment would have saved him a lot more crying in the long run. Is it kind to pander to someone in the short term at the expense of their long term benefits? Nope. That response - feeling bad and wanting to act on it - wasn't about kindness as a bottom-line intention, it was about wanting to make YOURSELF feel better, merely at the time. So how to cease being his co-dependent is to from now on CEASE trying to cater to your own momentary concerns first and foremost and take a longer view. Putting the here and now above the there and forever is what HE'S all about and why you're IN this quandry, is it not. So you should be endeavouring to be the opposite of him - COURAGEOUS. Opposites with opposite end objectives cannot be co-dependents. He is your father. There is no pay day for being a parent, it's simply the right thing to do, is a journey wherein one is supposed to learn all about self-sacrifice. You owe him nothing (other than a sympathetic listening ear) and he cannot keep treating you and behaving towards you as if you do. You didn't cause his problems - he did. He had choices not to and dismissed them. And in the context of the two of you side-by-side, he is (supposedly) the independent, self-reliant adult and you the child, meaning, he has to behave like the adult and let YOU behave like the child. This includes his seeking help from a PEER, not an underling; and you behaving like an underling, not a peer. I don't CARE what your culture might say. Given a choice between going against nature or going against culture, I'd take culture any day of the week. Because I've seen what going against nature can DO. And it's a hell of a lot worse than, basically, the clueless ideas and disapproval of a mass of people who poo and fart same as me. Your dad persistently went against nature and LOOK AT THE STATE OF HIM! "When I said he has no choice he very angrily and reluctenly accpepted." What - no crying all of a sudden? Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice. Not such a pitiable victim now whenever he can't get his own way, is he, note. Oh, for goodness' sake - he's a VICTIM BULLY and nothing more lofty than that! Stop being his victim, and worse - his ally! I mean, I expect your MUM felt insulted every time he abused her, didn't she? What, and now suddenly - only when he's on the end of it - being insulted is the crime of the century? PFF! If he 'missed his kids' then he shouldn't have repeatedly poo-ed all over his chance NEVER TO HAVE TO miss them, eh! No, you're not doing the right thing and you know you're not because I had already advised you against well before now and in no uncertain terms. You insist on doing whatever you want to do regardless - even regardless of the fact that it's your *scared mother* who deserves your loyalty, not her bully-perpetrator - so I'm afraid I'm out because I'm here to guide and have that strong advice taken on board. You may choose not to TAKE mine or anyone's advice - granted and fair enough - but that doesn't obligate the adviser to stand by and witness someone else's train wreck unfold and/or be emotionally pulled by the arm by proxy into that muddy pit WITH them. ...so this is me being cruel to be kind TO YOU. Best of luck.

SOULMATE - I haven't let him into the house just found him a rented room so he can return and seek medical tratment if he wants. He said he wants to visit my kids and I kindly told him he can see them in the part in the weekends. told him no way he can come into my house or try and speak to my mum Everyone is telling me I am doing wrong but I dont know what else to do. Should I totally abaondon him and go no contact

okay so he has arrived and the lumps of mass on his chest aren't so painful anymore and he is no rush to go to the doctor now. He said I want to come home to see your kids to WHICH i replied no. He sobbed and cried. I didn't give in. He stayed at my sisters who really hates him but her husbad has pity for him. Today he will go to new little room. Lets see if he loses the plot or tries to rebuild himself!

Yes, but it's the fact that *you* have found him a rented room. Who said *you* had to be involved, even one iota? What - because he's your dad? Pff, hardly...and you've just finished describing how his coming back to this country SCARES YOUR MUM, HIS NUMBER 1 VICTIM. "VERY abusive and controlling", you said. Your loyalties should have lain with her. She's for a long time now ceased pandering to him, in fact, ceased wanting to have anything to do with him. Why do you suppose that is - for laughs? You've just helped to manoeuvre her monster closer to her again. "Tell him that you're not prepared to be involved with him and his life (nor vice versa) until such time he can show he befits someone of his biological status and with whom its sensible to BE involved with.", I said. "Wow. Your words are like gold dust to me thank you very much!", you said. And, "I need to plan to keep in there away form my mum and myself. its going to be a challenge but I have no choice." ...yet now this, this latest development. "I felt guilty because he is a uk CITIZEN and its not my right to stop him.", you said. There's a huge difference between being unable to stop him and actually facilitating his return! Nobody said it was easy to refuse to have anything to do with your father until he finally proves himself worthy of that label and status. But I'd have thought it a darn sight easier than helping to recreate huge anxiety for your mother, she who WAS always there for you and did what she said she'd do 'on her tin'. So you failed the challenge, then, didn't you, and instead tried to strike a compromise between the two demands. For whose benefit? Yours! Had this been MY father and mother, I don't think, given his history, I would even have NEEDED any persuasion to keep him as far away from her, Amen, as possible. And you think if you didn't exist it would your MOTHER who was helping him to come back? Or that he even HAS to come actually inside her house for her to feel on nightmareish tenterhooks as from now? Hardly! Sorry, not impressed. And how naive are you, anyway? You REALLY think he wants to return to your mother's vicinity for medical reasons? Yeah. Course he does. "Should I totally abaondon him and go no contact" Fecking YES. Oh, look...looks what's in your second post: "okay so he has arrived and the lumps of mass on his chest aren't so painful anymore and he is no rush to go to the doctor now." Gosh, I am so surprised (not!). "He said I want to come home to see your kids to WHICH i replied no. He sobbed and cried. I didn't give in." Well, at least that's SOMETHING but the truth of the matter is, no-one would have had to have replied no in the first place had you not agreed to help him. (Help him? What is he - FIVE?!) (Wait ...Yes! is the answer to that question.) "Today he will go to new little room. Lets see if he loses the plot or tries to rebuild himself!" Is this a serious wager because I'd like to bet my house it's the former. (When are you going to learn?)

So I didn't follow advice by completely letting go of him. I decided to let him come to the park with me and my son. He started saying it was hard to survive in the UK living in a rented room. Started saying that he was better of in Pakistan. So I said you should return. Then a few of his mates came round to my house asking for him. I told them to call him. He told then he cant bare to meet them and that he can stand teling ppl his wife banned him from the house he lived in. Then I felt sorry for him and called him up and met him outside. He started crying in my car and then out on the streets. I calmed him down and we went to his room. My Brother in law came to visit and said he feels sorry my dad because he lived in a nice house before and now he has nothing. I am now feeling confused and feeling like s***. When he was in Pakistan I was thinking once he gets here and get access to the health service I will feel better. Now he is here I feel depressed. I don't know what to do. I cant see him cry but I know if he moves back in My kids and wife and mum will suffer. I have never really felt this sad. I stayed with until 11pm. When I got home my wife wasn't really happy with me because I didn't help put the kids to sleep and I was feeling quite shitty anyway, I cant sleep now. Feel completely shattered. Don't know what to do

So in the morning my wife pulled a stroppy with me. She complained why I Slept in the spare room. I explained I couldn't sleep and that I was awake until 2 am. Then as I was going to settle down to help my son with his homework she was getting him ready to go out. I said to her you to discuss with me before telling the kids because I am telling him to do his homework and your telling him to get ready for the park. She started crying and shouting and said your mad n this and that then said your being rude then starting slapping herself then pulled a knife and threatened to stab herself and slash her wrists. I am really looking for advice or anything. I just needed somewhere to share my problems.

Is THIS why you dragged your father back into your frame? Because you and your wife have hit problems and, your not knowing how to deal with it or what to do about it, figured a heavy distraction was in order? Or because you felt sure your father would have some sort of advice he'd impart if he felt beholden to you for your help in getting him back here? I mean, no-one's going to convince me that a wife who reacts like that has gone from 0 (normally calm and perfectly well behaved, acting reasonably even in arguments) to 100mph in one fell swoop, NO WAY. She must have spent X many arguments or X amount of months/years working UP to that frenzied and over-dramatic kind of display, surely?

No absolutely wrong. I did not bring him back. He came back himself. I do not need help from my dad. Never taken advice from him. He can not even his own life. The thing about my wife I don't get it. She has lost me

I wasn't asking IF you'd facilitated your dad's re-entry into yours and your family's world; that was already an established fact. I was asking about the REASON you had and whether it had anything to do with your having hit trouble in your marriage. Well, if you've never before seen such a display from your wife I can only assume that the way you behaved that night was so out-of-character and extreme that it sent a panic rocket up her a*se in terms of having made her think it must have been some sort of reflection on your feelings towards yours and her relationship, added to the fact you were already worn out from dealing with your dad's drama...all in all meaning that you refused to engage properly in the conversation (as gave her even MORE cause for paranoid thoughts). What was it that she reckoned made you "mad" per se? What got said AFTER the bit you said about undermined/halved authority? And does it mean that she HAS been reacting like this for a while, only ON THE INSIDE where you've never gained even any inkling of it? Because I repeat: no-one goes from Nought to 100 in 1 second, it's just not possible UNLESS the incoming stimulus demands that extreme of reaction. So what's missing from that little account of events and dialogue, eh?

Okay i accept i facilitated my father's return into my families life. Since he was financially broke i couldn't let him suffer abroad when he could get treated in uk as he has been a tax payer. I have more things against my father than my wife. He cried to her in the phone and she asked me to consider allowing him back into the house for a few weeks. I said no. It's better to keep him at arms length. The day i came back late i explained to my wife i will need her patience and would appreciate if she can put the kids to bed without me. I explained i believed i had no choice and that i was going through a hard time but with her help would be able to pull through without any negative affects on our family. She agreed. Not so long ago we went to Pakistan and i stuck by her. She returned feeling happier. We were planning a little holiday to lego land so i really don't get it. My father is at an arms length not really part of our family. If someone's dad is threatening suicide i believe its normal to go and try to talk the person out of it. Also your partner should also understand the kinda situation you are in. Anyway to cheer my son up i Brought him a new little laptop. I myself went for a late night jog. Im lying in the bath now trying to make sense of this all. I told my dad your better off single at least no one is threatening suicide or slashing themselves to you!!!! Silly man didn't understand i wasn't joking

Wow. I wonder if you are able to take a step back at this point and see this string of events that you've described taking place in just the last two months. Dad's plan of attack: Step 1. Manipulate son to bring me back home. Fake an illness. Back in the UK now. Success! Step 2. Working on my son-in-law who doesn't know my manipulative ways. Easy target. Turn him into my ally, my tool to add more pressure to the family to let me back in. Success! Step 3. Blame, accuse and guilt dear Son about shutting me out of the family. Now he's meeting me in the park on weekends. Gives me more time to wear him down. Success! Step 4. Turn dear Son's wife to my side. Another easy target because she also doesn't know me. Another ally gained. Success! Step 5. ...stay tuned for the next stage of Narcissistic Dad's campaign to re-enter the family home and rampage through the family... You are so out of your depth with this manipulative monster because he's not just going after you, he's going after the soft targets first. You're sinking fast and you don't even know it. You're even telling yourself that you're not giving in. Except you are. He's already ripping your entire family apart and setting you to fighting with each other. Your brother-in-law is feeling sorry for him. You're getting depressed and fighting with your wife. Screaming and suicide threats. Your wife is inviting him into the house already. What's next? Did you say your father threatened to commit suicide so you'd have to come talk him down? But you think your Dad is just a silly man who doesn't understand what's going on? Why this story strikes me as so bizarre is that you're the one who's telling it and yet you don't seem to understand the story you're telling at all. I suppose that's what a lifetime of that abuse has done to your brain. Your father has conditioned you since birth and has had more than your entire lifetime to hone his skills in manipulating you and everyone he comes in contact with. The only sensible thing you can do for your entire family's sake is cut all ties with this man. Stonewall. Act only through a professional intermediary if you ever have to deal with him at all. He's ebola and no one's wearing a hazmat suit. Maybe you should consult a professional therapist to discuss what's going on so you have someone who can help you figure out what is appropriate to do about your father. Especially if you can find a professional you'd be willing to listen to. You're certainly not paying attention to anything that was said here on this site. Possibly your wife could use some therapy, too. It's not a good sign when someone starts talking about slashing themselves.

Thanks for your advice. Since my teenage years I know something wasn't right about my dad. But we never got what it was. Since he was in pakistan I searching the net to discover more about the mindset of gamblers and they decribed two kinds one being Action Gamblers and I learnt action gamblers are generally narcs. From then onwards I began reasaerching narcisissm. I found the crieteria for being a narc and according to me he got 9/9. Two of my sisters also gave him 9/9. However I still can accept him as a narc. I seem to make excuses for him. When he was in pakistan i dont think he faked the illness I did see some lumps on his chect but they were dismissed by the GP as nothing to worry about. He was suffering from dry eye when he was abroad. He was recieving treatment for it but now the symptons are gone. He is using the son in law. He is has asked him to talk to my mum and explain to her that he has changed and to let him back in. Not sure how he planned to turn my wife against me. I need to convice my self he is a narc. Can you or someone please send me questions I can ask him or things i can do to see if some narc sypmtoms get triggered please do share with me

Can anyone educate on how I can convice myself that he is intentionally playing my emotions and also how i can be sure the he is a narcisist

Even if you were a professional psychologist specializing in narcissistic personality disorder, you would not be equipped to deal with this guy. He is your father. He is the man who molded you into the person you are. He knows how to trigger the emotions in you that are most likely to get him what he wants. Guilt. Pity. Shame. Sympathy. Grief. Depression. Hopelessness. You are vulnerable to him and his manipulations in a way that you will never be vulnerable to anyone else in your life, ever. The parent-child relationship is always that way because the parent is who trains you how to think, feel and respond from the cradle. You need a professional therapist to talk to about this. You need to be able to describe in detail the trouble you, your father, your mother, siblings and whoever else are having with this. A therapist can respond quickly and ask you questions in real time and observe you in person for other unspoken cues to understand what's going on and then what will actually reach you, what will help you to understand all this. Posting hit and miss on a forum when you get the impulse to do so just isn't getting the job done. If you are absolutely unwilling to do that, then I urge you to stop trying to convince yourself of anything about this man. Look at everyone else in your life. Look at the effect his presence has on them. How have they changed with his re-entry into your life. Do you and they do better when he's not around? Do you feel worse after interacting with him? You already know the answer. He's a "Toxic Dad." Who cares what else he is? It doesn't matter! Cut him out of your life. Cut him out of your Mom's and sisters' lives. Stop forcing the rest of your family to go through all this misery just because you can't let him go. You are enabling an abuser in his abuse of your mom, your sisters, your wife and your kids. How can you live with yourself, your choices, knowing that? Let. Him. Go. You do not see or talk to him anymore. You set him up in a different, distant town with a bank account that you can remotely deposit funds into for him to buy food and necessities if that's what it takes for you to separate yourself. You do not take his phone calls. You do not respond to suicide threats. You do not respond to him, period. You only have contact through professional intermediaries, bankers, landlords, therapists, doctors, whatever. He can make new friends and damage them until they're ready to end their lives. You stay away. And stop giving him access to your own kids! Unbelievable.

My sister has told me to seek professional help too. She says my wife is no different to my dad. I am just not seeing this. I will make an appointment with my GP.

I think I need to clarify something I said previously. I was not trying to say that your brother-in-law or wife have been "turned against you" by your father. I wouldn't assume they are intentionally acting against your best interest. But I think they don't have the experience to recognize your father's behavior patterns. They just believe him. They don't realize he's engaged in a psychological battle with you. That's what I was thinking when I listed them as your Dad's allies. They're actually his victims too. They're being manipulated by him the same as you are. There is something very wrong when someone threatens to slash her wrists. Your wife has a problem. I don't know what it is. I'm concerned that you seem to habitually minimize all these problems. That's probably one of your coping mechanisms. But if you're the only sane parent in the household, it's going to be up to you to recognize when your kids are being mistreated too and they certainly don't have coping mechanisms yet. I think getting a professionally trained, objective observer (therapist) to help you figure it out will greatly benefit you and everyone else for whom you are responsible. In your position I would consider it an absolute necessity. And I don't say that lightly, I can be stubborn about not seeking outside help. But in my opinion, you are in some deep stuff and you are responsible for too many other people's welfare to fumble around in the dark on this. So, a GP, General practitioner...a primary care physician. They can prescribe antidepressants or other medication that might be necessary, but you can't medicate yourself out of a toxic living environment. I hope you see some kind of therapist to help you with all the dysfunctional personal/interpersonal behavior problems. Think of it like getting a private tutor on recognizing and surviving emotional abuse with a minimum of damage. I'm out of my depth in advising you otherwise on your situation. When I read your posts I do think of Tatum O'Neal. She's an American actress who was the favored child of a famous and infamously narcissistic father, Ryan O'Neal. She wrote at least two books about her life and there's even a reality show she did with her father trying to find a way to rehabilitate her relationship with him. It didn't work. But maybe you might find something to connect with in her stories or tv show that will give you a little insight. I don't know. I do feel I can say with confidence that you will never find any list of questions that will bring this all into stark clarity for you. That's just not how it goes with emotional manipulation. The emotions always muddle everything. That's why you need someone to ground you right now who isn't in the midst of all the turmoil and isn't pushing their own personal agenda, someone who is a professional therapist. I'm emphasizing a therapist a lot because I think it's the best thing, the necessary thing, you can do for yourself. But I hope you don't feel like you can't keep posting here too for as long as it helps you. And maybe it can help others too. I hope you do keep in touch. Hang in there.

Had it not been for the comments i recieve from this site I would have let him in. All my relatives are telling me that I am wrong. Saying look at your poor dad he is living all by himself sleeping in someone elses house, Poor guy not getting cooked food. Even one of brother in laws who he never got on with tells me that I dumped him at his old age. I would have given in and let him have is way. Just this morning he called me and said I am going to your house to visit you kids. I said your banned by mum. Then my wife said I'll take the kids to the park with your dad. I said no way. He will take advantage and start doing it on a daily basis. Then five minutes later he called my and said can I take your son out again i said i dont allow him to go with anyone. I now accept he is playing me back then I keep hiving him the benefit of the doubt. Yesterday one his mates gave him £200 and said poor you theyre kicked you out. he still asked me more food money, he didn't know that I knew about him getting the £200.

That's good. I'm glad you at least have this website. I'm worried that the seriousness of your situation really needs more than this to keep you and the rest of your family emotionally safe. Do you ask yourself if you've made too much of the problems? overreacted? do you feel guilty every time you say no? Like you should be nicer to him and show him sympathy? Pity? Give him that helping hand because that's what a good son would do? That is the emotional manipulation he uses to get himself what he wants. In a healthy relationship, the other person should be able to respect your needs too. A healthy person would care if they were always making you feel worse, making your life harder. I would bet your father instead uses any mention of your own troubles as another way to provoke your pity and guilt about him. Maybe he puts himself down, maybe he says you don't love him. Is it always about him, him, him? How he feels about your feelings? How your troubles affect him? Does he exaggerate things you say so that you find yourself denying them? reassuring and comforting him? He manipulates you and everyone for his own benefit. In any event, what you have described in your previous posts is not how a person behaves when they sincerely care about you. You can't have a healthy relationship with someone who doesn't return your respect and consideration. If you keep trying to have that kind of relationship, it will only break you down. If you feel like everyone is against you, there is a very good reason for that. Your father has done all in his power to charm and persuade them that you are mistreating him. He has manipulated them into believing you are the bad guy and he's the poor victim. You're the one with the power to give him what he wants. That's why he will continue to target you with any kind of pressure he can and his manipulations of everyone he can influence will reflect that. The more skillful he is in accomplishing that the more you will feel like everyone is against you. You DO minimize problems. You are NOT overreacting. The things you have described are NOT normal in healthy families. A family with healthy relationships does not need to go to the extremes you described to get away from their father. The father is supposed to be a positive, beneficial presence in the family not someone you have to guard yourself against, someone who always makes you feel like you're doing something wrong. You describe events in a minimizing way, with brevity and like they're no big deal. They are a big deal. ALL these problems you're dealing with are serious. Including what's going on with your wife. I don't know how anyone could manage it on their own. I really hope you get more help. Has the sister who suggested a therapist seen one herself? Maybe you can talk to her more about that. You're doing the right thing every time you resist your father's requests, demands, appeals, pleas and any other attempts to manipulate you, including when he's doing it through his own intermediaries (these other family members). Also, I hope you aren't unintentionally redirecting that pressure onto your mother by making it because of her that your father isn't allowed back in to your lives. Or I should say, allowed even further in to your lives. He's already gained too much ground. For your family and your own sake you need to reverse that trend. Start moving him back out of your lives. Get more help with planning how to do that and how to cope with these manipulative tactics in the meantime. What do you think of all that?

That is exactly how I feel. I feel guilty and afraid that he may rage if I say no. My extended family make if worse by saying everyone deserves a chance. Yesterday he started asking me why i didnt send him money for him to buy a car, he said he forgives me because I am his only son. It is always about him. Always about how his addiction ruined his life and that his addiction is a disease that he really wants to stop but cant. and that how other people who are more worse than him dont get booted out. He hasn't realy said I dont love him but has said that so and so has done so much for his dad. It is only in the past few months that I have realised that I never really had a father. The sister who suggested a therapy was kinda persuaded to marry a first cousin from abroad. One of her kids is diabled. She has only understood what has happened to us and that its all this mans fault. She may accept councilling. My younger sister went all out with daddy when he returned and asked for an apology for all the panic attacts she had when he rowed in the home and for the poverty he put us through. He refused saying that he also suffered because of his addiction. She said you didn't let me go uni he replied by saying 10 years ago people from our commmunity didn't send their daughters to uni. She named so many people form this so community who did go. But he still never apologised. Today he asked to speak face to face with mum. Initally I said I'll try. Then I called back and said its not happening. I dont know how I got through uni or even this far in my career. I dont know how I survived without losing it Thanks

So now my brother in law has accepted that he wont change since has been spotted out side the bookmakers. He said I feel sorry for him but will keep my distance. All my sisters have given up on him. He has only me left now.

"He has only me left now." So true. Only you remain hooked and wriggling on the end of his fishing line. What do you plan to do to extricate yourself before you suffocate or get eaten alive? That's a serious question. What are you going to do?

TH, Sorry for the absence, I was in court all week (not as the defendant, I should swiftly add! ;-)). "She says my wife is no different to my dad. I am just not seeing this. I will make an appointment with my GP." Perhaps your sister secretly isn't all that fond of your wife or can't be bothered to work her out other than slap her with dad's label? The thing is, if you can't it see then there's a reason why not. You *have* seen it with your dad so logic dictates you would now equally be capable if sister's claim held any basis. However, I asked you for a run-down of the actual argument, to which you've merely provided a vague overview. So we still can't establish precisely why your wife reached such a fit of pique as rendered her getting 'all unnecessary'. By the way, only were this type of threat to self a common occurrence in your wife, particularly in the absence of due provocation, should you worry about her mental health or wellbeing in terms of precariousness. Otherwise, it's known and perfectly natural for very passionate types to allow themselves such over-dramatisation (albeit, again, not as standard). I'm really pleased and re-encouraged to hear you've decided to contact your GP; that's more like it! Have you done it yet? I agree with Smiles that your relatives (with the patent exception of your sister) *wouldn't* be as capable as you now are of seeing the nature nor extent of your dad's aptitude for manipulation, considering how they, too, would be too long used to it so as to have normalised it in their minds. It's only you - the main brunt of it by a long shot these days - who's recently had his attention so concertedly and objectively directed towards it. Frustrating, I know, but par for the family course at this, your particular juncture of enlightenment. In short, you are presently the little boy who can see that the emperor has no clothes. Give them more time and I'm sure they will too. That's 9 times out of 10 what happens once the main victim finally extricates himself from the perpetrator's range and crosshairs: the latter then turns his sights towards the next in line, whereupon they get to sample it first-hand and full-on to where it can no longer be denied or minimised. When, not If. If dad's mates tell you you're 'abandoning your dad in his old age' you should address that simply with, 'Yes, I am, but with actual justification including for good, self- and family-protective reasons. You need to spend time in MY shoes before you're fit to judge.'. And you should bear the following in mind about WHY his friends would say that: One of the leading characteristic criteria of a bona fide Narcissist is that they're incapable of friendship, let alone where they'd have a posse of 'mates' willing to aid and advocate for him. Said posse might well have narcissistic *tendencies* themselves whereby they all rub along together superficially well enough (inter-exploitation), but not to the extent of CARING ACTS. It's an established fact that narcissists LITERALLY AREN'T CAPABLE of caring about others thus forming any real bonds (that's their entire problem). So with the updated case, I would conclude that your dad has simply become deeply and long-term ingrained with the idea that emotional manipulation - even scraping the barrel if necessary - is a sure-fire method when it comes to getting ones spoilt baby way, and that his so-called mates are likewise trying to ensure you feel the buck stops with you, precisely so that THEY don't have to be the ones to get their time, energy and wallets out (- see how he shifted his crosshairs like I've just pointed out?). If you won't, they *have* to (evidently!). Understand? So that explanation could extend to anyone else in your family in whose interests it is that you *don't* see/accept the light. Not that you or your family are in any actual danger, however (so no need to panic). He's just a manipulative thorn in your side, one you're trying to extricate from your inner sanctum. "he said he forgives me because I am his only son." That's right, you're his only SON (and then, thanks to him, in name only) - not his therapist, social worker, emotional crutch, punching-bag and ATM machine. If he truly wanted to fix himself then, as I've kept saying, he would seek proper help instead of faffing around with all this trivial (but convenient) nonsense and whinging. If other people who are worse than him 'don't get booted out' then that says more about their family and friends' tendency to be over-tolerant and -accommodative. Anyway, what do YOU care what other people do or don't do? More fool them/good for them - whatever! You are you so this is about what YOU want and decide is the more sensible way to live your life. Otherwise, if he feels other people are (cough!) nicer than you, he should go and live with or suck the life out of THEM, shouldn't he? Or what is he suggesting?...that if their reaction were to jump off a cliff, so should you? Were it me, I'd tell him that most 'other people' don't have fathers like him. So as he's in the minority, unlike you, maybe it's HE who should be doing the accommodating and changing. (That's about the size of it.) 'Dad, you do nothing to enhance my life or wellbeing - quite the opposite. For that reason and until such time as you prove you can cease, leaving you to it is my only sensible, adult-like, responsible option. However, you are very willing to take the time and effort it takes - the honourable and moral way - in order to make me change my mind on that score'. *Let* him rage. Show him that as a crowbar, it no longer works on you. Because (ref "I dont know how I survived without losing it"), you're far stronger and resilient than even you yourself realise. But nowadays, that strength belongs by rights to your wife and kids (and anyone else to whom you *do* owe active care and whom won't then just exploit it for short-term, childish, futile purposes). He missed his boat and will have to turn up at the port before he can board another. No turning up? No boat. His choice, his decision, his control. His friends certainly can't lend him that one. Ignore the guilt and fear - they'll pass...whereas having a sh*t dad won't, not if you won't make the effort to finally ignore the guilt and fear. Catch 22...that circle has to be snipped in order to stop this merry-go-round. Again, RSVP about whether you've yet secured an appointment?

"So now my brother in law has accepted that he wont change since has been spotted out side the bookmakers. He said I feel sorry for him but will keep my distance." Hurrah! Now the family tide will turn (and you getting to say 'Told ya!...told ya!...told ya!') :-) "All my sisters have given up on him. He has only me left now." No he doesn't...because short of that GP appointment, you've given up on him too. Now he has to lean on his mates. Once THEY get fed up with him might well be the catalyst he so badly needs to make the changes necessary for people to want to spend time and energy on him again. Listen, I get why you'd want to feel special when it comes to your father but THE OLD WAY IS NOT THE WAY. It's your father's turn to want to feel special to *you*. Diff/all the diff. This is just a process of transformation (with you at its helm). Grit your teeth and know that there's a rainbow at the end of this tunnel.

PS: Excuse typo 4th para up (and the delay in saying so), should have read 'very welcome', not 'willing'.

Heya Troubled, Why do you want to keep your Dad as this big part of your life? What are you hoping to accomplish with him? What are your reasons for believing that he'll ever give you what you want or become who you want him to be? What are you and everyone else willing to pay emotionally, financially, physically, etc, in your attempt to get what you want? At what point does this effort stop being worth the cost to you and everyone else? Do you think familial duty only goes one way? If you saw these things happening to other people, to strangers you didn't know and about whom you could be more objective, how would that change your perception of the situation? Or what if the roles were reversed, would you think it was ok to treat your son the way your father treats you? If not, then why do you care so little about yourself? Is this the example you want to set for your kids or anyone else who might look to you as a standard for how they should feel and behave if they find themselves in a situation similar to yours? We all have limits. We have to choose who and where to expend our energy and time. Are the choices you're making here the ones that you will be able to look back on in a year or ten or twenty and still feel it was worth it? that it was the right choice?

Yup - nice angle! Very interested to see what TH has to say to both our posts.

Thanks Soulmate :) I hope he's doing ok because I find myself worrying about him...

Naaah. He's just going through a very particular but standard human developmental stage (or rite of passage if you prefer). He'll come out of the wash okay at worst or brilliantly at best. Remember that adage that goes, 'Everything always turns out alright in the end. So if things aren't alright, it simply isn't the end yet.' Damn fine truism, that one! Or there's that analogy of the butterfly's chrysalis and the vital reason behind the fact they have to struggle so seemingly long and hard to emerge into the open air (with wings strong enough to eventually soar). If you let yourself get too emotionally involved, you'll burn out too quickly. And the visitor numbers are rising steadily so we need all the regulars we can get! Try Valium. Or a 'dooby'. I'd offer you one of mine only I can't reach from here. (joke) But you've got me thinking.... Maybe we could do with an R&R stroke Jokes thread? I'll have a little thinkipoos about that one...

Hello smiles and soulmate. I am fine. Just reading through your comments over and over again and reflecting on my self

So he got in again today. My wife felt sorry and let him in. After he left i called him and said your not supposed to come here. That took a lot from me to say. I met him out side took him into the woods and explained he needs to live his own life. Stared getting emotional but that gave me their opportunity to practice detaching from his emotions

Today for the first time he tells me he has feelings for mum. And how hard it is to live alone. How much he is suffering. I keep on telling myself it's not my life. It's his. He isn't on the streets. He should be my father not the other way round. I feel better. The GP said he can't refer me and could just prescribe anti depressants. I rejected those. I and searching for self help books.

"practice detaching from his emotions" That's excellent, Troubled! I know how very difficult that can be and how long the emotional turmoil lasts afterwards, doubting yourself and feeling guilty, etc. But when you learn to detach like that and become able to watch someone as if you're just an observer outside all the emotional turmoil, you'll regain control of your own feelings and choices. If you find yourself getting too upset, learn to stall, say something noncommital and leave so you have time to regain your composure and think. Like when he called to talk to your mother and you said you'd try, then you called him back and said no. That was good, too. I'm glad you're standing up for yourself. I'm glad you're feeling better doing it. That's great! You're doing the right thing. If other resources are unavailable to you, Youtube has a lot of videos about narcissists. Though that's always a mixed bag. There are videos about recognizing and coping with narcissists. If you find some good ones, maybe sharing them with your wife and brother-in-law will help them start recognizing your father's tactics so they don't sabotage you so much. But even if that doesn't work, sometimes watching videos by other people who understand what you're going through can help. And they're available any time you need them. I notice there are even videos about what questions will reveal a narcissist. The problem I personally have with that approach is how much it relies on your ability to discern when someone is lying and that can be extremely difficult when you're emotionally involved and want too badly to believe the lies. I don't think the answers your Dad gives to a bunch of questions should outweigh the experiences you've already had with him. Don't let him sweet talk (or guilt talk) you into letting him drain you any more.

Yup, excellent development in terms of your progress at toughening up! It's been a long time coming, too, eh? :-) Better late than never. PS: I repeat: Narcs don't have good friends that bail them out like his did, nor long-term ones (which they must be to have gone to as much trouble on his behalf as they did). However, alcoholics/drug/gambling addicts are prone to developing reactive narcissistic (or other PD) *tendencies*. So this means he must have a heart and a sensible side in there somewhere but that's been buried for too long under too much (self-created) crap. Be very wary, therefore, of labelling him "a" narcissist just because it makes finally being sensible and tougher on him feel somehow easier. You need to pump those muscles of yours properly, TH, not bring in artificial limbs, okay? Furthermore, if anyone in your family were to let slip that you were all convinced he had a mental illness (despite it presents as mild or imperceptible to anyone stood outside a certain more intimate range), you could just make his climb back up the hill to recovery seem pointless to him when he needs all the motivation he can get. So keep this mere suspicion to yourself for the time being. Okay, TH, are we clear on this?

Soulmate - I feel confused. Please help. He has definitley had long term friends. Most are not in contact since he was borrowing money from them. Some are still his friends. they feel sorry for him and believe we shoud let him back in the house. Only one of his cousins gave him £200 as a one off. That person see him as a father figure. He was definitley a bully at home, expecting everyone else to do his chores, iron his clothes, make him tea, polish his shoes, make his breakfast, clear the table after he has eaten. Only one of his friends has actally visited him. Other than me no one else is financally supporting him. My brother in Law - who is his nephew (I know its wrong but we can talk it another day) has pity for him but says your dad always thougth he was the boss so now he is paying. He feels sorry for him becasue all he has is a little rented room. I was explainging to my father that many people fall in life but only the brave bounce back. (I am reading Paul McKenna) he replied back by saying when your mum had a mental breakdown 15 years ago I didn't leave home and I got my daughters married. Even though he has been told many times that getting married from pakistan was a bad move and that my sisters did actually want to go uni, he still believes he did the right thing. If he isn't a narc then do you belieive he can change? He tells me over and over again that my mum was wrong and bad not to go over to pakistan to take care of his mum. I wonder if they got together will he be a threat to her, are you in a position to share your thoughts on this. Would you have good links that discuss traits of gamblers.

Hi Troubled, In my imagination, Soulmate is bonking her head repeatedly on her desk out of sheer frustration. I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure she never intended for you to start doubting yourself all over again now. But until she makes another appearance here I'd like to remind you of a few points. No one can change someone else. Only your Dad can change himself. He has shown no inclination to do so. What he SAYS he wants doesn't matter, it's about what he actually DOES. And change takes time, so even if he starts acting responsibly now he would still be required to give everyone however much time they need to start believing he's for real. He isn't doing that. Labels aren't really so important. Narcissist or whatever, your Dad is toxic to you. You don't deserve that nor are you obligated to endure it from him. In fact, it's your responsibility to take care of yourself. If you let him wear you down, you won't be able to be there for the people who still depend on you, your own kids. If your Dad was a decent father he would not only understand this but he would be supportive of you and your family in his role as father/grandfather as you strive to live a better life. He's not doing that. He's whining about how much you still owe him and how you should be keeping him in the lifestyle he believes he deserves. That is an impossibility. No matter what label you stick on him, he is and has been an abusive parasite. Even if your father had a personality transplant and became your ideal for a father, you still would not be obliged to let him back in. In fact, if he were that ideal, he wouldn't need you to give, give, give him so much and you wouldn't be having any of these difficulties because he wouldn't be trying to shift responsibility to you for all his inadequacies. Your mother is her own person. She is not bad or wrong or anything else your monstrous father accuses her of because she has choosen not to endure any more abuse from him. It takes strength and courage for anyone to stand up for themselves and I hope you can recognize how difficult that can be since you are in much the same situation. She has the right to make those choices for herself. Your father does not get to dictate them for her. Or for you. Again, he's whining about how everyone else in his life is failing to keep him in the comfort to which he feels entitled. That your father believes he's ever done someone (your mother and sisters) a kindness by dictating how they should live and what they owe him is not admirable, it's disgusting. That's not good parenting (or a good husband). Good parenting is about helping children learn how to live and make decisions for themselves in an honest and responsible way and providing for their basic needs while they are learning those skills. What you said to your father about life being full of ups and downs and that the brave keep going was absolutely right. Your father has medical care, a place to live, food to eat and clothes to wear. He's doing fine. If he's so upset that you're doing better than he is, that's not your problem or your fault or anything else of that sort. Your father has manipulated others (brother-in-law/nephew) into feeling their own guilt and pity and those feelings are uncomfortable. That's why your father provokes those feelings in others. So in an effort to feel comfortable again your brother-in-law is unloading it on you, trying to make the problem go away by making it your problem. Just as your father intended your brother-in-law to do. You don't deserve any of that, but you probably can't do very much about it other than cut those conversations short and go do your own thing. Your father has been destructive to your family in the past and you are not required to endure any more of that. It's your life and you have the right to make it what you want it to be. Don't let your father manipulate you into living your life trying to meet all his selfish demands. It'd be a waste of your life to even try.

Hello Smiles. Thank you for your post. I believe will a very tough battle for me and my mum and my sisters but we shall fight. It always helps to see it from an outisders point of view.

SUD, Banging my head in sheer frustration? *Could be wrong* in thinking I never intended to make TH doubt himself? Make an appearance? Er...beg your pardon? One, I wasn't banging anything (not even Mr Soulmate); two, I was front-of-house absent, not deliberately silent, and catching up on a backlog due to the cause I'd already taken the above trouble to mention. Listen, I might have appreciated your input, particularly being so up against it recently, but, watch those lines of board rights and etiquettes, please, we're not Cagney & Lacey, let alone where you presume to speak for me. My rights as moderator to clarify, explain, re-orientate - basically supervise and adjudicate - do not go two ways (unless invited), ...that or you maybe just need to watch how you phrase things in your endeavour to keep TH reassured? If you can make these minor but important adjustments I'm sure you'll have what it takes to become a much-valued 'permanent' adviser like 'our Susie'. No hard feelings, though, just a necessary bud-nipping; the rest of your post still chimes perfectly with everything I've been telling TH, okay? ************ TH, please disregard those off-target sentiments entirely. That I managed to fool others as well as you with my earlier tactic to shock you out of total inertia/conflict-paralysis goes only to show that my BAFTA is seriously overdue. ;-) Apologies for my having manipulated you (for the power of good, I should add), but it had to be done, as I'm sure you can now appreciate, plus it worked (always does). And now back to our regular scheduled programming...

Sorry Soulmate, wasn't intending those words like that. I was really looking forward to your take on this because I find your point-of-view helpful in developing my own understanding. The banging head on desk is a kind of phrase with people I hang out with and it's meant affectionately and comically. Anyway... Sorry. I get the message.

Soulmate, Iam totally confused. So you intentionally manipulated by saying that narcs dont have long terms friends???? Should I continue being firm with him or shall I believe somewhere in him there is love. Last night my broter in law took my daddy for a drive where daddy told him how bad his daughters are because they didn't convince mum to take him back. He then told me he had a dream thay my sisters doesn't like him becasue she hasn't called him since he was kicked out of the house. I asked him did you call her???? He went silent. Please help by explaining if I should stay firm or should change my stance Also in terms of understanding and appreaiating your comments better can you advice if you living in the UK Thanks

Then it's the latter case (watching your phraseology). Okay, thanks for clarifying. However, probably best not to try and second-guess me or what I'm up to. I'm a very complicated individual with a whole bags of tricks when it comes to the long-haulers. As I've now (ahem) had to reveal - that earlier, 'I'm out!', was a ploy. I don't do impatience, and I'm happy to repeat myself until the cows come home. You can't be a mod and lack patience. Tolerance, yes (where it's doing the boardie no favours), patience, no. Anyway, good, glad we're back to singing from the same hymn sheet. :-)

TH, "Soulmate, Iam totally confused. So you intentionally manipulated by saying that narcs dont have long terms friends????" No, ya 'nana, I meant that bit where I threatened to pull out (as the actress said to the bishop) to tip your stuck scales. (Wait up - back in a tick...)

Right... to address the whole of your points: ************* Soulmate - I feel confused. Please help. He has definitley had long term friends. Most are not in contact since he was borrowing money from them. Some are still his friends. they feel sorry for him and believe we shoud let him back in the house. Only one of his cousins gave him £200 as a one off. That person see him as a father figure. He was definitley a bully at home, expecting everyone else to do his chores, iron his clothes, make him tea, polish his shoes, make his breakfast, clear the table after he has eaten. Only one of his friends has actally visited him. Other than me no one else is financally supporting him. My brother in Law - who is his nephew (I know its wrong but we can talk it another day) has pity for him but says your dad always thougth he was the boss so now he is paying. He feels sorry for him becasue all he has is a little rented room. I was explainging to my father that many people fall in life but only the brave bounce back. (I am reading Paul McKenna) he replied back by saying when your mum had a mental breakdown 15 years ago I didn't leave home and I got my daughters married. Even though he has been told many times that getting married from pakistan was a bad move and that my sisters did actually want to go uni, he still believes he did the right thing. If he isn't a narc then do you belieive he can change? He tells me over and over again that my mum was wrong and bad not to go over to pakistan to take care of his mum. I wonder if they got together will he be a threat to her, are you in a position to share your thoughts on this. Would you have good links that discuss traits of gamblers. **** Should I continue being firm with him or shall I believe somewhere in him there is love. Last night my broter in law took my daddy for a drive where daddy told him how bad his daughters are because they didn't convince mum to take him back. He then told me he had a dream thay my sisters doesn't like him becasue she hasn't called him since he was kicked out of the house. I asked him did you call her???? He went silent. Please help by explaining if I should stay firm or should change my stance Also in terms of understanding and appreaiating your comments better can you advice if you living in the UK Thanks ****************** 1. Okay, so it WASN'T his friends but a family member who financially bailed him out. Still, his friend DID go above and beyond to where Friend gets classed as such. So regards your question, should you continue being firm etc: the answer is, BOTH: You believe he has a good side but FOR THE SAKE of that good side - to encourage it back or more to the fore - you continue the tough love campaign. Reward him whenever he acts like a dad or less of a (for want of a better word) parasite or helpless child, and punish him (withhold engagement) whenever he acts the opposite. It's just 'puppy' training. 2. I like how your BIL/his nephew simplified the situation. He's obviously one step ahead of you (albeit would be, not being his actual son) in terms of mentally dis-empowering the whole situation and its effect on him. Maybe you should take his cue? 3. "he replied back by saying when your mum had a mental breakdown 15 years ago I didn't leave home [and I got my daughters married]." Yes, but the difference is that your mother hadn't before, during and after behaved like a familial despot, meaning, it was EASY for him to stay put. 4. I'm not in a position, over the ether, to believe whether or not he can change. Some can, some can't. Some narcissists can (although it's a long slog, and that's even *with* therapy). What's important is that you and those who depend on you don't have to suffer alongside him. If there's no-one else to help him besides himself, then help himself or seek the PROPER help will be his only option. He needs to SEE that those close to him are running/walking/inching away from him to finally realise he must be the common denominator. Try googling for the semi-lay, semi-professional book, "I hate you/Don't leave me". Whether or not someone has PD (and addictiveness-based reactive-only PD), it's still helpful when it comes to understanding and dealing with this extreme type of attitude and behaviour. 5. If they got back together, he and your mum, and, foolishly on your mum's part, before he'd 'seen the light' and changed his ways, then you need not worry because you're not a helpless and powerless little boy any more. She's got you, yes? But forget the 'what ifs' and just concentrate on the here and now, putting one foot in front of the other at a time. Saying that - one thing that would help you majorly would be to cease calling him 'daddy'. Never under-estimate Self Talk (it costs lives ;-)). Say 'my father' to mentally distance yourself (insides matching outsides is what gets faster, better results). Every time you say or type 'daddy' you are in a way regressing yourself back to when you (and your mum) were a bona fide victim of his. 6. "He then told me he had a dream thay my sisters doesn't like him becasue she hasn't called him since he was kicked out of the house. I asked him did you call her???? He went silent. " There you go, then, actions speak louder than violin-playing. So ignore that 'dying swan' tactic of his, it IS JUST a tactic, one that *used to work* on you but not any more, now that you're savvier. 7. Yes, I (bleugh) live in the UK. Or YUK, as I call it, LOL.

PS: How are things with your wife? It was just a high drama fight, yes?

Things with the wife are good again. Seems like a one off. I reckon since I'm generally calm and humorous at home but since the narc returned I got a bit edgy she saw a side of me she had not seen before and wanted to challenge me. I can be wrong. I'm gonna see the narc again now. Only one of his mates has visited him since he returned so he is feeling lonely. Spends the day in the bookmakers. My brother in law actually had a row with my sister because she is backing mum. I told the narc to leave her out of it since she has a disabled child. My visits with him consist of how bad mum was to kick him out and why she brings up the past about him beating her many years ago. Then it switches to why my younger sister complained about her past to him in front of everyone. I've had my coffee so i should be fine!

WHAT side hadn't she seen before? You being tougher and (comparitively-speaking) harder-hearted in regards to your dad? Did she think she was next on the list? LOL "The narc". LOL. Are you what I call a meaty hand merchant who does either 0 or 11, dial-wise, and nothing in between?...because, I'll tell you why I'm laughing: I say stop calling him daddy, try 'my father', but YOU come back with "the narc". :-D Is that hilarious for its unexpected-ness or is it just me? Also, is it a mixed Freudian between you insisting you "know" he *is* narcissistic combined with the abbreviation for 'narcotic' because to you he's always felt a bit like an addictive substance that sucks you back in each time? I'll assume Yes. "The narc" it is, then! :-) Listen, see your dad if you want to or really have to. The important thing is just to be AWARE of how destructive he can be and to have broken free of his 'forcefield'. If you are, now, and therefore can basically have your old drug repeatedly wafted right under your nose without wanting to give in and take a snort, then you'll have proven your willpower invincible and need take no other safety provision, least of all staying completely away. And then each 'exposure' will see you yet stronger. In actual fact, if you're the ONLY person he can depend on then you'll be that much better positioned to assert your 'authority' because he'll have no choice but to keep you constantly sweet by toeing your more sensible and respectful line. (Don't let the power go to your head when that happens, though, or you'll have ended up just reversing the old dynamic.) Meanwhile, if he keeps whinging and blaming, try not to knacker yourself by arguing or even commenting. Just say, 'Mmm' and 'Hmmm...riiiiight' a lot, whilst fidgeting or fiddling with something, and perhaps even change the topic that bit too prematurely to be considered polite. Once he can see that you're really not buying his Poor Little Me/Horrid Everyone Else act any more, he'll have to try another tack or switch to PLEASANT conversations in order to get anything other than monosyllables out of you. And what other tack IS there but laying the blame to rest where it actually belongs - with him? If that fails then there's also the possibility that by being allowed to talk it through repeatedly he will suddenly spot all the anomalies, nonsensicals and contradictions, i.e. finally HEAR himself...and then work out why everyone's giving him such a wide berth. So!, Mr Newly Masterful (:-))...Do you perhaps feel like respectfully, friendlily but firmly asking BIL not to take sides in future? I know he's these days "family", but [1] he's not blood, and [2] this is about something that's been going on since yours and your sister's childhood over which he mostly was never privy, meaning you and your sister are the experts to whom he should defer all opinion. Agree? Whilst I'm waiting for your next post,... Well done for having started to so definitely take your place in the (let's face it - ) VACANT Alpha Male position in your family. Abso-bloody-lutely - why should you have to take the lead and responsibility without all the perks that normally go WITH that role? They say with power comes responsibility. Well, in your case, now - with responsibility comes *power*. Again, do use it wisely (I'm sure you will.....and will be showing "the narc" up nicely in the process...which I'm sure won't escape his attention any.) Good. Very-very. :-) How has this personal progress made you feel in terms of on the positive side? Noticing anything different about yourself yet?

I have been giving him home made food and giving him time in the evenings. He seems to be getting depressed and complaining about his situation. He feels insulted about being banned from the house. I was trying to reassure him that he can has a chance by saying you haven't lost anything. He replied back by saying your right I never had anything to lose. then he said if I can sponsor his mother over to uk. and then said actuallt no point really becuase no one will take care of her anyone since all my daughters have deserted me. He says it was my mothers fault he didnt quit his gambling and that now becuase of her he cant even face his mates. He tells me his new room feels like prison to him. I dont know why I'm feeling sorry for him.

Good grief! I expect, every time he farts, *that's* somehow her fault too! But, don't forget: every time he whinges on and on about what a sad state his life is in, DON'T offer reassurances. Just let him. And if ever it starts to get too much for you, start with the Mm-hm-ing (translation: change the record, can't you?!). He KNOWS what you think (because your actions have spoken for you already). What amongst other things he's trying to achieve is to change your mind. If no part of his mind has to get dedicated to listening and thinking about anything YOU say, he'll have the full working cylindry to start to properly hear himself, as if in a room on his own. If you MUST comment then make like a Rogerian counsellor and just re-hash whatever he's said (i.e. in your own words - and simplified). That way he'll be 'forced' to hear himself through your mouth. Example, 'I see, so you're saying you feel your daughters have abandoned you...for no good reason'. Don't even add a questioning tone, try to sound as much like Mr Spock (Star Trek) as possible but add a touch of languidness to your tone as if you're perfectly laid-back. That then puts him in a room on his own but with a clear echo (which repetition obviously speeds the process). Not only that, but if, when you feel he's whinged for too long, he's not GETTING anything from you then it becomes like him putting coins repeatedly into a vending machine but getting nothing back except for his original coins. No choccie bar (no reward for the faux-victim mentality). He will pretty soon start to bore HIMSELF, particularly due to the fact whatever he's claiming contains little or zero commonsense (e.g. daughters do not ostracise a parent for no good reason; one, maybe, but not when it's both/all of them simultaneously (GET THE HINT, DAD!)). *He* should be taking care of his mother. If she's ill but he abandoned her to it then, what a selfish, heartless monster (frankly). He, due directly to the way he constantly insisted on behaving, effectively irretrievably broke the marriage contract, meaning, he (and his relatives) are nothing to your mother any more. This won't necessarily be a PERMANENT ostracisation. But it is very effective at shoving the very stubborn's face against the truth written on the wall. He's going to have to start to WOO his daughters in order to get them back....with not only pleasantries but sincere promises not to do this/that any more. If he goes back on his promises, I've no doubt your sisters will instantly walk away again. If these tactics don't work within, say, three weeks, then you must start to avoid him too. It's extreme, yes. But so was his habitual conduct. And clearly no lesser behavioural hints ever worked on him. Lastly but definitely not leastly: "I dont know why I'm feeling sorry for him." THERE YOU GO! :-) Progress!

he reckons since he is man he can not really take care of his mother. He left her alone for almost 10 years in pakistan. Now he left her with my mums brother. he took her in out of compassion and also since she is his aunty. He admits he was wrong to gamble but it was mums fault for not helping him stop. he has mood swings some times he is happy other times down. He said If I can sponsor his mum to the uk he or even if i can and none of the femaaled from out family help out then he will no choice but to go back to pk and find a new wife to take care of his mum. Since he was not allowed in the house my brother in laws are getting worried about themselves. it not common in their culture for the wife to refuse entry to her husband. they say they feel sorry for him and that he doesn't deserve this. they also say to my sisters if you want to leave us then do it now and not when we are old liek your dad. seems like the storm is about to get stronger!!!!!

and he now confessed to an affair a fews ago, this was also my mums fault

I'm sure there's nothing or next-to-nothing *wrong* with his mother in the first place. Who do you suppose it was *taught* him all those violin renditions and sneaky hand manoeuvres of his? Use your noddle. Plus, your mum's brother didn't have to live daily for years, trying to fend *off* all that incoming nonsense...easy for *him*, eh! Let's see how long it takes for his 'compassion' and the fact she's blood to wear off, shall we, especially considering she's the 'mother ship'? Mum's fault for not helping him stop? Did he think when he married her he was (- "buy one, get one free!") getting a personal nursie and therapist (and mum upgrade) into the bargain, or a whole entourage like he thought he was Jennifer Lopez and she 'his staff'? The answer to that, going by this: "and find a new wife to take care of his mum.", is YES! Good grief. "it not common in their culture for the wife to refuse entry to her husband." Tough! T'is now. Because when you emmigrate to another country - same as when you visit someone else's house and their house rule is Shoes Off At The Door - it's, 'WHEN IN ROME, DO AS THE ROMANS DO'.... which is what your mother is doing (hurrah!). I don't DOUBT it's making all the other males in your family nervous. But if they're nothing like your father in regard to how they treat their own wives, they have nothing to worry about, do they. Oh, yes, he DOES deserve this! Sod countries/culture, he deserves it according to HUMAN LAW. Storms have a habit of leaving the entire environment completely refreshed, with old and weak trees/fences/structures blown to smithereens and room for new shoots to grow and new, BETTER structures put in place. Here, if ever you're with him and he trips, do ensure to pipe up with, 'Mum's fault!', won't you? ;-)

Anyway, you sound a LOT BETTER...more self-assured and clear-sighted. Excellente! :-)

So he wasn't getting it that why none of his daughters are not calling him up and offering help. I decided to help him out and ask why he reckons this is. He said they have issues not understanding how to respect their father. He acceped the daughter with the disabled kid has a reason for being sad but she should still offer him help. The other daughter was totally wrong for teling him how bad her childhood and how his gambling affected her and how bad he was to give her panic attacks. He will never forget how she had a go at him infront his family. Even if she apologies he will not forget it. I told him if he controls his addictions and shows that he a changed himself maybe mum will say he has changed and may allow him back in. He said he doesn't want her back, also becaise she didnt come to pakistan to take care of his mother. Then he says if she lets him in and agrees to take care of his mum he will be happy to live with her again

Know what he sounds like at this juncture? PETULANT AND RESENTFUL ("don't WANT her back, mleugh!"). That and the fact he's found a bit of empathy towards the one sister is brilliant because it means despite he's trying to fend off all the true reasons for these problematic results when it comes to taking responsibility for any of them, he's at least started to face them and try to find a cause. See, that's the beauty of ostracisation: it's writing on the wall that's just too darned big to pretend not to notice. He's not the sharpest tool in the box, though, is he. Particularly as he thinks he's in a position to set CONDITIONS (i.e. only if she'd take care of his mum). I should cease mentioning your mum and the possibility of her taking him back (particularly as it's not true) or else he's getting the inkling that she, secretly, is the one who wants HIM back. Hence you hear him thinking he can strike deals. This also suggests how little he actually loves your mother and how it's more about having love only for whomever it is DOES things - basically bends over backwards - for him. Yep, he's showing Narc tendencies. But that, as I said, could be what came out of 'the bottle' (gambling addiction) rather than what he put into the bottle as he drank, if you get my meaning? Plus, it could thus far purely strike him as far easier to start putting obstacles in the way of getting whatever he wants just because you mentioned that scary word, CHANGE. Either/or...maybe whatever proportion of both. But his over-entitled expectations, certainly, smack of that typical Me-Me-Me and Give Me X, Y & Z for Zero attitude that goes beyond the realm of normal. (I wonder if this hint of progress has anything to do with the fact distance has newly been created between him and his mother?) But anyway, we could play 'Is he, isn't he' all day long so let's not go back there... Now might be a good time for you to stop playing personal therapist and to recommend that he speak to his doctor about getting counselling for all these interpersonal problems he has, making sure to tell him that counselling is just brain-borrowing, meaning two heads are better than one when it comes to him working out in record time how to reverse this all-round horrid situation of his so that he can be happy and well taken care of again. Put it in those subtlely self-serving terms and, you never know, he might go for it... more so if you lie (for the power of good) and say YOU'VE had it and that you enjoyed it, and how all the subtle but powerful transformations it enabled you to make demanded only you trying on different angles of thinking/examining (which was piss-easy), etc. Or pretend some mate of yours did and now he's this/that/this brilliant thing and position, having the time of his life. Don't sell him the idea, though, just nonchalantly plant the seed of desire. You're confident it will work ergo - no sales job needed. If not, and regardless, it's better that you stop arguing and offering solutions to the extent that you are. You may THINK it's bringing you and your dad closer now and for When, but there is always a danger in these situations that if/once your dad does improve, he'll for a long time feel distinctly uncomfortable being around you for the glaring reminder-on-legs you then pose as with regards to you alone having seen him at his most low, vulnerable AND SHAMEFUL point. Therapists, on the other hand, don't give a hoot that they never see that 'mere' customer ever again or the person embarrassedly crosses the street whenever they spot them. As I advised above, just listen and tweak-repeat back...until HE puts all those 2 and 2s together.... and gets 4s instead of all these 5s. The fact that he's still whinging despite he'd have you believe he has already landed on all the correct reasons for this/that woe of his (i.e. everyone else's fault, never his) is testament to the fact that his psyche knows darn well he has NOT..hence the talking about it (processing it out-loud) has to keep continuing. (Get it?) Also, in this way, come the end of all of this, you've not witnessed him at his lowest and most vulnerable, you've simply witnessed him (no matter slowly but steadily) helping himself, i.e. having gone through the process of self-strengthening for which HE can take all the credit. And that's the difference that makes all the difference. This is the same mistake divorcee women on the dating scene tend to make...over and over. The bloke goes whinge-whinge-mew-mew about this or that and the woman immediately starts offering solutions. His mind then thinks, 'Ooh, goodie - a sexual relationship AND a free therapist!', meaning, once in a better place he immediately 'fires his therapist' (which means the Girlfriend part of her alongside, considering she's not made of Lego) out of his new-found need to find a woman who finds him IMPRESSIVE. Sense?

So the days have been going by and my level of pity for him has had its ups and downs. He really doesn't like my younger sister and has very reluctantly taken a temp job working for a friend of his. Yesterday my wife called him to tell him it was my sons birthday. When I later met him he started crying and said he wanted to be with my son. spend time with him and tech him what he know and have someone remember him once he dies...

Who CARES if it's reluctantly, at least he's taken it! PROGRESS...Can't argue with actions! :-) 'Reluctantly' will sort *itself* out. Teach your son what he knows? Er.... LOL. Supervised visits-only for now, methinks. Oh, and, at least you know what to buy him for Christmas, right? A year's supply of tissues. :-p Listen, the very worst thing you can do with a victim-bully is feel genuinely sorry for them because that's precisely what they want: you thinking they genuinely deserve constant leg-ups rather than getting of their OWN arses like everyone else has to. If anything, you want to try making him ANGRY. Anger is a great turbo-charger. Particularly if you dent his manly ego in such a way (e.g. friendly and sympathetic-sounding insult) as has him utterly GAGGING to prove you wrong. I mean, he *is* rather pathetic compared to you, isn't he. And you didn't even HAVE a dad!

yes he is pathetic. He blames everything on everyone else. He cant not even accept that fact that he wrong to stop my sisters from gouing uni. My mum has had mental health issues since as far as I can remember. He was going on about her yesterday and also started telling me that I have not achieved what I should have. So I could not help iterupting him and telling him that rather than just critising her he should have seeked help or gotten her admitted in a phych ward. He said he was young so I told him that I grew up without a sane mum and almost no father and the fact that I got a degree is a miracle, He was speechless and started on again about how sad his life becasue he got kicked out of his home.

He's an inflexible thinker. He doesn't understand changes of context. Or country and culture for that matter. Yeah, I'm not surprised your mum has had mental health issues. So would any woman if she'd been married to him for decades. Never mind him having been kicked out of his home - she didn't even HAVE a home! Because home means sanctuary, ones safe and happy place. "He said he was young so I told him that I grew up without a sane mum and almost no father and the fact that I got a degree is a miracle, He was speechless and started on again about how sad his life becasue he got kicked out of his home." Oh, well done you! He obviously had no comeback other than that same ol' scratched record of his. That was him instantly rolling over and showing his tummy you realise?...because you showed your teeth. I'm surprised he didn't just pop a nappy on, a dummy in his mouth, stretched out his arms and burbled, "Dadda!" and been done with it! Cuh. Scared of his own son. Scared of his own shadow! You obviously didn't get his genes (thank god!). You can call that a miracle if you like but, genes are just Lego; it's what you build out of them that counts. Otherwise, they're just a pile of useless plastic cubes that get painfully underfoot. Still... Rome wasn't built in a day. Just keep trucking, ignore the blah-blahs and watch only the actions and whether he starts to build on that one (the temp job). How are you feeling lately? Obviously a lot better considering he's gone from 'confusing, controlling and abusive' to 'pathetic'.

Its been a while since he returned. He worked at a fruit stall for a month and i have been saving his money for him. He now doesn't have a job and complains about having nothing to do. I am feeling sorry for him now and often feel tempted to allow him access back into my home. Please advice if you think its the right or wrong thing to do

WRONG! One piddly month of working like every other responsible grown male on the planet does not warrant all punishment/deterrent/incentive bets being off. Let's see him hold down a job for a YEAR and THEN you'll talk about his being re-granted My Father status. I said KEEP IT UP/DON'T DARE QUIT and I said it for a reason. Nothing to do? What is he - five?! Yes he is. But this is you coaxing him the only way open to you into becoming an adult, finally. His PARENTS should have done that but clearly they didn't. It shouldn't in an ideal world fall to you but you've chosen to take on that challenge. SO ACT LIKE IT. Clear enough? (PS: Hello again, LOL)

Hello So now its been over 3 months since he arrived back. He has not had a job for over 2 months now and his benefits claim may go through soon. I've been feeding him from my own pocket. I cant help feeling sorry for him. He spends the whole day in the betting shop and when I ask him to get help he blames my mum for not letting him in. I told him to search for a job he said he is too old. I try to explain to him 55 isnt old but he thinks he is. Sometimes I feel like giving up om him

Sounds like he's just biding time until his benefits start, that he has zero intention of getting a job and never did. There again, where's his need to if you're meanwhile constantly subsidising him? And is that the money he's using to bet with? Must be, musn't it?

You are correct. He said I want to return to return to pakistan becuase my mum needs me. So I told him then go back. He said I need money to get married and get a car. So I lied to him and said there is a chance your mum can come over to the UK so you stay here and with your mum. He said she can trevel and I said she can. Then he said she needs someone to talk to so I said yea you can talk with her. He said I cant. Then I lost it with him...I told him you cant take care of your own mother and expect me to support you. He reckons my mother should take care of her and giver her all the time he needs while he sits around or spends the day at the gym enjoying himself. He often tells me he is old. I used to try and explain to him that he should think positive and seek help for his addiction. He always replys by saying if I was nt banned from the house I would have controlled my addiction. So I told him its never your fault. the affairs you had, the gambling, the drugs all mums fault. My last words were you messed your own life not anyone else! I will continue to fund his food until his benefits claims start after that he will manage it himself

Married? Isn't he 'too old' to get married? Not sure why you believe you're in a position whereby you have to lie to him, but - whatever... If he's proving that the money you give him is so superfluous to actual daily living requirements that he can fritter it at the bookie's (and apparently also the gym!) then you should point that out as basis to immediately discontinue the subsidy. In other words, cease the futility of 'losing it' only with your mouth. Evidently you *don't* have to wait until his benefits payments begin. Right? If he is eating then where is he getting this extra money to gamble and frequent the gym with, anyway?

PS: I think it's time your mother made her divorce from him formal/legal, don't you? More to the point - doesn't she?

My wife cooks extra and I drop it off, otherdays he has frozen fish. I give him money so that he can go to the gym but occasionaly he blows it on the bookies. other days he blew his food money and ate nothing. Fingers crossed his benefit claim should go through so I will be in a position to leave him alone. My Mother is a very weak person and often thinks what if he dies then it will be so sad. I have asked her to seek a divorce but she get depressed but she doesnt want to ever see him again either. I lied to him to see what he says and does. I had to see how he would behave to take the guilt out of my heart. i knew what his response would be but just had to hear it

"other days he blew his food money and ate nothing." Jeeee-sus! I thought (ref your opening post) he said he was trying to STOP his addiction? Not trying very hard, is he. I think you should make an appointment to see your GP or his; never mind job, the guy obviously needs therapy first and foremost. As to your mother: 'What if he dies'? Doesn't she mean, kills himself? If she cared that much then *she'd* be the one subsidising him instead of her child! Oh, and she gets depressed does she? She wants to try being you, THEN she'd know all about it! Pff! How convenient. So basically you've got BOTH parents leaning on you as if you're the parent and they the children. And yet out of the three of you, only YOU have a family to support (because you and your siblings have long flown the nest). Good grief. Know what I'd be doing right now?

You are correct. I realised i was codependant and have reduced the time i spent with him. My mother should play her role but she isn't. I called my father and told him that he will need to book an appointment with his GP and discuss his issues otherwise i won't see him anymore. Also pointed out to him that i found it strange how hr no longer has temper rages like he did before he booted out.

Well, the way your mother is sticking her head so deeply in the sand, it could be that she was part of the problem, whereas you're not, meaning, with you he wouldn't dare? What I'd be doing right now is cutting BOTH of them out of my life, and making it clear that that's the way things will stay until they BOTH behave like grown adults by finally getting their acts together. On your mother's side, that means her making a decision ("eek!"), finally. Either she's still married to him (in which case she should be the one letting him lean on her) or she's not and should make it real (legal and final) - in order to set him mentally FREE, whereby he can no longer continue harbouring false hopes that allow yet more procrastination and playing Silly Buggers on his part. Still, the up side to all this is you at least got a superb and almighty lesson called, How NOT to behave as a grown adult and parent. Right? ("Right!") After all, you could so easily have turned out like one or both of them (ye gods!). Anyway... Impressive response. That's more like it. :-)

I visited my father and spoke about his addiction. He insisted he doesn't have a addiction and he did all his bets for his fun. So I questioned him why he stole my money in the past and stole my wife jewellery and placed bets with it. He said he wanted to make money. I explained this is addiction, he disagreed so I left and said I will not book a GP appointment. I am beginning to learn to walk away. Thanks for your help

He said he wanted to go the gym a few days ago so I lent him my travelcard and gave him some money for the gym. I checked the travel history on the card and learnt that he didn't go to the gym at all. This guy has lost everything but still can not admit he has a addiction and still lies without remorse lol

'I asked the liar if he was lying and he said, No'. Du-uuh? You sound surprised. So if not the gym, where did he go? Also, why are you telling me he said he won't book a GP appointment? Who said anything about him being the one to book it or attend? Please read my 4th Sept 17:23 post again. Anyway, if he's abusing your generosity with the travel card now then the travel card is likewise out-of-bounds from now on. That's how it works with children. And he's the one insisting on behaving like he's your child so... Maybe that'll teach him to next time tell the truth. (It's just a shame you can't put him over your knee and spank a bit of respect into him. Probably if one of his parents had done that, way back when, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, eh!)

Soulmate - Are you suggesting that I book him a GP appointment even if he does not admit to having a problem?

No, you book an appointment with his GP or, failing that, your own. I presume both doctors belong to the same practise surgery? His ACTIONS - quite transparently - DO admit he has a problem. So that is that is THAT. He's made himself your child. So you have that parental right. And that is that is that, also. That's where role-reversal leaning on you gets him (because it's a package deal). Will he still like it - will-he, will-he, huh, huh? :-p He can have all of it or none of it - his choice!

I have booked an appointment with his Gp for his gambling problem. Thanks for your advice.

Really?? Then you get my favourite 'reward'! ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRhjWdr-LAA :-) Do, obviously, let me/us know the outcome of that?

So since many ups and downs in mood swings I managed to convince him to go and visit the GP. The GP was very compassionate. He admitted to having suicidal thoughts and accepted he beat me mum in the past when he got angry but now he has to keep his anger in him. He admitted to having urges to gamble and also said he smokes pot from time to time. The doctor said its not fair on him to keep on going the way we are. She asked me contact social services. I did But they said they can not really help. The GP also gave him self referral for Mental Health Service. I just spoke with him and he said he feels great without taking the prescribed anitdepressants and all his moods are because my mum kicked him out. He also said his problem is that he has no money.

He went on his own? EUREKA! Well done for having managed to finally persuade him! Ignore his follow-on, last-ditch attempt to wriggle back out of the process. That's normal and natural while he gets his mind around it all. And tell him, so WHAT if this or that caused his depression (and reactive, rapid-cycling bipolar by the sounds of it). Whatever triggered it is not the point. The point, now that he's suffering from it, is to give his brain the help it needs to correct its upset cocktail of chemicals through drugs that both kick-start its natural self-production of hormones as well as adjust the presents amounts up or down to suit whatever over- or under-production. That's all it is - a c*ck-up at his 'factory' caused by one of his 'workers' being laid off. He wouldn't keep trying to run on a leg that was sprained, would he? He'd rest it and take anti-flammatories. So why is he insisting on doing the same with what is merely the psychological version? As for money: cart (treatment) before horse (WANTING to get a job). Whatever... just keep focussing on the indisputable, progress-denoting action: HE WENT! Any journey of whatever length begins with just that one step.

Nope I took him. He wouldn't have gone alone

Ah, I see. Well, I guess that's a case of - what little boy would? ;-)

I really can see him as a little boy now. Last weekend he was in tears and today he was in a good mood. He accepts he threw his life away in the bookies but doesn't accept he was wrong for rowing with my mum over her cooking or for net letting my sisters go uni. Today he said he isn't depressed not he is a proper addict so no need for him to take antidepressants.

You can? That's excellent, means you now feel bigger and more powerful than the problem, rather than the other way round. "He accepts he threw his life away in the bookies but doesn't accept he was wrong for rowing with my mum over her cooking or for net letting my sisters go uni." I'm sure he DOES, deep down, but... one step at a time when it comes to 'outside-broadcasted' self-confessions/admissions. His brain has only a certain capacity thus a certain workload tolerance, and false pride takes time to lower. Standing back from all of this, it seems he has far less problem taking truth and direction from men (albeit still has problem per se). Hmm.. That explains why he was basically gagging to get away from his allegedly frail and in-need mother, doesn't it. *Actions*. If he won't take his meds, what about his taking a course of talking/sorting everything out with a counsellor? Does he like talking endlessly about himself and his life story? I imagine he does. Use that angle of appeal, see if at this point he bites?

PS: Alternatively, try to hook him with the idea of you going with him (it's your issue, too, after all, in terms of your being affected) and presenting it as a weekly 'pub followed by supper at our house' night? ...Failing that, a tube of Smarties and a pack of stickers? LOL

to be homest I've just about enough. I asked him if he still depressed he said no becasue I will he believes I will give him 10k to go back pakistan and get mareid and get a car. I said I'm kinda not able to then he said please get a bank loan. I'm taking him back to the GP tomorrow lets see how it goes

He believes you'll give him a whopping 10k for eff-all (including the fact you can't even say he was your Father in terms of a verb) so that he can return to the exact same place he previously insisted he just HAD to leave... so that he can get married????? And get a car? What, for he and his brain-damaged wife to live in? And because you who doesn't have to afford it CAN'T afford it, he thinks YOU should get a loan? No, HE can get a loan! Good grief! Aw, don't listen, it's all just last-ditch struggling BS. Yeah, good luck with the GP, let me know how it goes. PS: Your dad should have been a comedien.

Been a long time since my post. Well he is taking his antidepressants so I decoded to take him to swwa gambling councillors. On the way he kept on saying he doesn't believe he has a gambling issue. Then he said he may have a little then later explained he gambled because he knew he can get away with it and he did enjoy it. So i explained he used to come home after you lost with a stroppy face and tell me how sad your and hard your life was. He replied I felt down after I lost and I wouldn't be able to tell those feeling to anyone else, I told you because you are my son. So we had the assessment and the councillor found it strange why i wanted to sit it. She questioned him as to why he decided to come after nearly 40 years and not before. So she told him there is no magic table and you have to make the effort. He was invited to come back and attend a group. When we left he said it too far to come back to. Since then he said many times i had no addiction and the only reason to why I'm going to the bookies is because your mum kicked me out and i have no other place to go to past my time. Consistently said he want to go to pakistan and get married and wanted me to fund his wedding. a week ago his mother had a stroke over in Pakistan so he had to go and is now as king me to fund his wedding and buy him a car. i decided to take the offer of receiving councilling for family members of gamblers.

During my initial assesment I was told I grew up in a insane home!!!!!!

Why are you so surprised - did you somehow think it was normal or healthy? But WHO told you that - the group gamblers' therapist or another group member? Ignore that tosh about 'because you were his son'. The weak always lean on the strong (and silent). And the weakest do it without even asking your permission, instead usually finding whatever way to trick or emotionally manipulate you into it. I expect back then you were quite flattered to have been singled out in what seemed like a favourable way, right? There you go, then. Anyway - "had to" go? You saying he's back in Pakistan already, now asking from there for funding?

It was the in my ono to one inital assessment the counsillor said well you grew up in a insane home. He now wants a funding for a marriage cus his mum is now bed bound. I have analysed everything from my childhood up until now and question everything. I have now stopped believing in Allah and God. I have openlt discussed it and one of my sisters has also come to the same conclusion. this has been an a really topsy turvy few years

No, he wants funding for a NEW MAID because his last one is bed-bound. (Hardly surprising - he probably wore her out like he did your mum! Or she's finally started to use her noddle and resorted to *pretending* she's nowadays incapable of still mummying him?). You don't have to stop believing in your god, you just have to change your notions about the nature of whatever weightlifting aids 'he' tends to bestow when you need encouraging to become mentally far musclier (either because you've not been coping with existing weights or because he has a very weighty yet POSITIVE gift ready and waiting up his sleeve that you just don't/can't know about at this early juncture). They're not always cute 'n fluffy, pretty, or in whatever ways delightful (at the time), in other words. Consider the butterfly-to-be in its chrysalis. The pain and hardship of its struggle to emerge out of it a butterfly are those very same things that ensure it gets a sufficiently thorough workout before it flies off to live a butterfly life. Were they not, it'd take off and then immediately crash or drop straight to the ground (think about it!). The harder the struggle out, the more powerful its wings and more the successful the rest of its existence. Or try ANOTHER analogy: the most powerful and RAPIDLY effective medicines taste like a NIGHTMARE. But that part of the process is fleeting, whereas the effects of the medicine are not. You're stronger now than you came in, right? There you go, then. Pass this on to your sister (and bang both your heads together whilst you're at it ;-p).

We left out religion because from a logical and rational point of view it didn't make any sense. None of the relions make any sense. At their best they are man made ideas which applied well to pripitive societies. They seem to have a negative impact in this current era of civilisation. You are right I do feel stronger. I'm still not there yet since I can not say No upfront to him about funding his car and his new wife, I feel some pity and some sense of responsibity for this. My sister will go for counsilling and I have already started.

I think what you mean is, barely any of the DETAILS regarding religions and belief systems make sense. That's because they were notions and "evidences" found/supplied simply by other mere pooing, farting naked apes (and WTF do *they* know compared to any other naked ape!). But look at science versus spirituality. So WHAT if psychologists have this/that theory or formula to explain something including how it works versus not, and spirituals, pagans or aetheists have another? Or if certain groups of individuals contrive and warp existing evidence for their own agendas (crowd control, say). The PHENOMENON ITSELF doesn't care, does it. It exists, unchanged, regardless. The TRUE evidence is all around you. But you do have to be long-sighted enough to put all the little pieces of evidence together as give you clues as to what the ultimate point of anything is. So, just like guns don't kill, people do - believing in whatever higher power than humanity isn't the problem. EXPLOITATIVE PEOPLE ARE. Diff/all the diff so don't blame "god". If you can't SAY no then *do* no. Tell me all the ways you can think of, both subtle and overt, regarding how you could "do" no.

Sorry I should have explained myself better. I defitley do not believe in any of the religions since none of them make logical sence. All religious scripture is illogical and immoral. Regarding God..I dont know. He needd to show him/her slef. Today my dad said I've found a 28 YR old woman to marry and send me the money which you promised. So I said getting married to a 28 yr old girl when your 56 wont help your situation. He complains of taking care of his mum who is bed bound. I explained to him I understand his hardship but a new wife isn't going to solve the issue. Also explined your own health may detieriate and you many have to return back to the UK. He said I cant leave my mum alone. So I explained if you have a new wife how will you leave her alone. he said I what the F**** can I do I'll commit suicide. So I told him to go ahead. I said to him that your 56 years old and you have more 20times the average pakistani earns per month surely can be that hard. I told him she cant be eating much and you can feed her. He said I cant wipe her back side so I told him to commit suicide. I have called him since and he hasnt call me either.

Fairenoughski. And ditto regarding everything you said to your dad. He's like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling. And no-one, NO-ONE can say you haven't tried your hardest to help him - the right way. 'Until Blue in the face' comes to mind. Knowing that is when walking away suddenly becomes almost easy. I expect you don't need ME to tell you that, right? You don't need a dad, anyway. You ARE a dad! You just concentrate on your family now. At least there, when you sow you end up with good things to reap. (PS: Pity that foolishly naive 28-year-old, eh!)

I agree with you. I tried my best. He rejected help with his councilling and also repeatedly said he never had a gambling problem. I agreed with him that he has a hard job taking care of a bed ridden old lady. Must be hard feeding her and extremely hard changing her nappy. But a 28 year old new wife who will get dumped if he get married isn't the answer. Girls in pakistan don't really get a say in it. They get told by their mothers. Esp if they have been divorced once.

Well, then, I'll edit my statement to: Pity that foolishly naive mother (and, don't get me started about lack of women's rights in Pakistan!). Enjoy your new-found liberation/lightness of load; you worked really hard for it!

Hi soul mate. Hope you had a good x mas. Happy new year!

Cheers! I indeed did! And same to you. :-) I take it that means everything's ticking along smoothly lately? How's the bubbie?