She cheated but I still want her... Help! :(

I recently posted about this but thought it worth starting a new discussion now that I know the truth and my feelings have progressed. Not in a good way though. A confused and hurt way I'd say. After an argument, the ex (then gf) stayed at a guys house. We made up the next night, but as she was sleeping I checked her phone and found messages that she'd wanked the guy off. She initially denied it, for nearly a week, but I found out last night that she did. Her story is that he started looking at some swingers/cam website, asking her if she liked it. Although she said no he continued to look at stuff and got his dick out. She says he then grabbed her hand and forced her to rub him off. She says she carried on doing it for a bit to hopefully satisfy him enough. He didn't cum, but forced/unforced she wanked him off for at least 30 seconds. Yes writing this is killing me and I still don't believe that fully. She says she was protecting him by not telling me. Similarly to how she protected her last long term boyfriend who physically abused her but she didn't tell people. I want to find out if that's true but the guy won't reply to me. So I suppose question 1 is do you believe it was forced? I always said if someone cheated on me that would be it. We're done. It's over. But crazily I still want her. I have a broken heart and have never felt worse in my life, yet the only person I want to make it better is the person who caused it! Talk about an emotional rollercoaster. Everything reminds me of her. She helped me with everything for my new flat so it all reminds me of her. She was about to move in and we have loads planned including a summer holiday. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. There are two things stopping me; the pain and the lack of trust now. In my eyes though I can't trust any woman now because I can't imagine anyone nicer, but she still did it. If I'm never going to fully trust a woman but want to try again, what's wrong with trying with the woman I love? As I say I won't trust whoever it is, but with tighter boundaries and rules I think it could be done. One more chance so to speak. With the hurt, this is difficult. The only way I can think to actually balance out the pain she's caused me is to get with someone else. Then we can decide if we still want each other. It sounds crazy to me too, but if I can build up my trust and say that we're even then I think I'd want her back in my now empty, painful life. So the next question is can it still work? If I can believe the story, lay down rules, regain my trust and maybe even the score is it not worth trying? I've heard of plenty of relationships that have lasted forever after a mistake was made. Lastly, and thanks if you're still reading this, I do not cope well with break ups. When my first long term relationship of 3 years ended (no cheating involved so not as bad) I couldn't even look at other women for at least a year. I then hated women for a further 2. It completely ruined me and I'd almost rather work on the above than go back into that hole again. I can't imagine trying all over again or loving someone the way I love her. I've had good friends around me but it still hasn't fully helped. My parents- the wisest people I know- advise keeping my distance for a bit and see how I feel then. I appreciate any advice in what is the most difficult moment in my life. I know it's nothing compared to what some people in this world are going through, but to me it's everything and I want to love her again. She keeps telling me she loves me so much and is so sorry.

I know and that's what I say. She continued though and said she did so for up to 30 seconds before leaving the room because it wasn't right. Well if it wasn't right, she wouldn't have done it in the first place right? She could've left straight away. So I know she's lying and am getting the full truth out of her. Thanks for your post. Could anyone trust a cheater again, if they thought they were meant to be together forever?

I don't think you believe her and to be honest, from what you say I don't either. He forced her to wank him off?, then you mention that it was sexual assault she gets him off the hook by saying she carried on herself for 30 secs to see if it was enough. In those 30 secs she could easily have let go and stopped. On another point, why was she sitting with him watching sex cams? Also, if he grabbed her hand, she could have closed her hand to a fist to stop him putting his penis in it. It's absolute bull-excretion in my opinion, she is being a coward and trying to act the victim so you don;t blame her for doing it. Also when you mentioned the sexual assault part she started defending the guy? That smacks of her realising her get out of jail free card, will have serious repercussions and is then trying to back pedal out of it.

In fact, incase I am jumping to conclusions here as Susie says she may have felt threatended. What was mentioned in the texts? How did she reply to them and what did he say?

Thanks all, I really appreciate this. I THINK I could let it go but I need the full truth first. As DAVEY says though, I don't believe her. She could've stopped earlier. I checked her messages from AFTER I found out and she'd been texting him, I would say normally, with two kisses on the end. Saying sorry because I was trying to contact him etc. Quite rightly so in my book. I think she's using the 'he forced me' as an excuse. Nobody can force anybody, and if she felt threatened she could've left and certainly wouldn't be texting him normally the next day. Right? It took me a week just to get that out of her. I've told her if she wants us she has to tell me everything in brutal truth so I'm speaking to her again tonight. As sick as it makes me feel I need to know. If she's honest (I'll know if she's lying and just found out she's stayed there before) and shows remorse I will give it a week or so to see if I think it's worth it. I really have no idea how people just get over relationships and are on the rebound straight away. Wish I was that strong :( though it does make me think our love is strong. Arghrghg!!!

And DAVEY- just to confirm the story with regard to the cam site.. She said they were watching a film and he got his laptop out. Started looking at some website and asked her if she liked it. She said no. (At this point I expect her to leave). Says he then got his dick out and grabbed her hand, rubbing it over him. She said when he let go she carried on for a bit longer then left the room. I call bullshit but I will find out. I think she's saying it as an excuse, but she says she's just protecting him. The fact they spoke normally after tells me it's rubbish. If there's even a little hope though that still sounds better then the emptiness I currently feel.

Also, the texts were not to the guy but her best mate whos gay. He hates he and her original excuse what he told her to cheat. She initially said she didn't do it and only lied to please her mate. But last night she admitted it. As mentioned above, I think there's more though.

Was that a true life story?

PRINCEAY- which bit? Everything about me is true and I'm trying to find out if what she says is fully true. I don't think so.

Today she is maintaining that she loves me, misses me lots, is very sorry and still wants us. If I could believe the story I'd take this and try to work with it, but the problem is I don't fully believe her. The guy won't reply to me so doesn't want to defend himself against the accusations of it being forced which is weird. Plus she messaged him normally after. Do you think she's holding back still? Thanks Susie.

Holding back information e.g. do you believe that's what happened? I just can't believe she was 'forced' as she could've stopped at any time, including when he first got it out. The fact they were texting normally afterwards doubles my suspicion and surely you wouldn't do that to someone who forced you into a sexual act? They should be over, not mates. I agree entirely with the rest and appreciate this. If you answer that one question I'd be very grateful. You're the only person that seems to believe her. Thanks very much, I'm not arguing lol, just seeking clarification.

UPDATE- THE BRUTAL TRUTH: So now I know what really happened. Her gay male best mate, whos a slut, told her to stay with someone after finding out she was along after our argument. She initially said no but eventually agreed. He told her to wank him off like he was guna do with his mates. Again said no but eventually agreed. Maintains she didn't have that intention though.. So off she went. After chilling out the guy she stayed with said 'I know what will make you happy, come see my secret...' and goes to his bedroom. He comes back and prompts her to follow him. She does. He sits her on his PC chair and gets this swingers cam site up. He's looking at girls getting turned on. Then he gets up guys for her. She's enjoying it, is on cam herself (without realising yea right) and talks to guys she admits getting horny over etc. After talking to guys for a while she gets stressed and has to leave. Said I kept flashing into her head. After this first session she 'put me to the back of her head' and went it again. This time she was talking to more naked guys etc, getting really horny. Once into it the mate took her hand and put it on himself. She pulled away but he said 'trust me its fine.' This happened a few times before she was fine with him, got into it, and wanked him off for a while. Through none of this did she leave, and she even stayed the night. I can't believe anything she says now and this is disgusting. She's cheated on me with loads of guys and I can't forgive it. I deserve better. Could anyone forgive that?

Move on. You deserve better, mate.

Yep. Broken hearted and in pain. Why did she do that to me/us. We were madly in love. I'll never believe in it again. :( Cheers though

Don;t let her taint your feeling towards all women, most are nothing like her. Take some time for yourslef, chill out, forget the trouble she caused you and when you feel ready, find someone else. Good luck mate, you'll be fine.

Thanks and I'll keep trying. Keep flicking between being very angry at what she did, to upset at wanting her/us back to ok(ish) purely as I'm not thinking about it. Reminded about every 3 seconds by something so have no idea how long the heart break will last. I'll keep going though and appreciate the comments.

Agreed vehemently with Davey (nice one!) all the way through that, P. What *is* she, according to her - retarded? That was the biggest crock I've heard in a LONG time. Who KNOWS what's up with her. Clearly she's looking for SOME kind of sensationalism in her life... or male attention? Yet, knowing that sensation-seeking posed a very real and serious threat to the vital trust that you'd built up towards her, i.e. that it could end the relationship EVEN AGAINST YOUR OWN WILL AND ENDEAVOURS, and, in spite of that, PROCEEDING REGARDLESS...? Actions speak louder. She obviously took your strength of attachment too much for granted that she even dared tell you *AND* at the same time defeated that whole object by contriving the events, and, now, still expects you to carry on as if nothing happened...? As if! At this point, were she to tell you something as simple as the sky is Blue you'd want to look out the window just to check! She had a chance and didn't take it. She could have come clean IMMEDIATELY AFTER the vent, told it all truthfully; at least then you'd have had some proof of contrition. Nope... Even whilst SEEMING to feel more protectiveness towards this other man, really what she was doing was showing you that when it came to protecting her relationship with you or herself - she chose herself. (Crap teammate with no sense of Us, anyone?) Unless she'd been through some horrid trauma or run of traumas prior to this incident to at least explain why the giant acting-out, she has proven she has a definite problem. Happiness must not be her comfort zone that she'd so easily and knowingly destroy it like that. Getting too hot in there for her, lately, was it? Evidently - yes... to wit: "She was about to move in and we have loads planned including a summer holiday. I wanted to spend the rest of my life with her." How to get fired because you haven't got the mettle to seek a meeting with your co-partner to alter/update the contract or to hand in your resignation. Basically. Gross Misconduct as warrants Instant Dismissal. If she were your business partner, you wouldn't agree to partnering up with her a second time, be honest. Well, where a commercial business can earn you millions, this here business called My Precious Heart is PRICELESS. Act like it. Relationships that have moved past cheating are the ones in which the guilty party has more than made up for their crime...*willingly*...has so copiously overlaid the bad memory with so many positive new ones that the former has gone from blurry to blotted out completely, meaning the bad incident fast became a microscopic drop in an entire ocean, meaning, resentment continuing to be nursed would have too soon felt downright stupid and petty. There's the difference that makes ALL the difference. Can SHE make all the difference? Again, unless she had been suffering chronic duress that resulted in this, her basically finding an excuse to bounce off the walls, then she committed that crime a bit too readily and easily in my opinion. So, even before considering whether you let her make it up to you, you need to get proper answers about WHY. So here's your dilemma: You're already, by now, X quantum detached and through the grieving process compared to when you were still together. Do you cut your losses as well as preserve your progress by staying walked away? Or do you risk trying again only to later one find yourself back at Grieving Stage 1 and feeling like it's your own silly fault? Or do you risk it from KNOWING DEEP DOWN that it WON'T all end in tears all over again. You've got some serious soul-searching to do...with the aid of a helpful litmus: Put her to the test now. "I can't live my life without you and want the chance to show you how mad at myself I am" is as "I can't etc." *DOES*. Make her have to sweat - LONG-HAUL STYLE. If she can't persist in her persuasion to take her back, for longer than '5 minutes', or if is too easily defeated by the first few "nos" and "don't knows" - there's your answer about how sincere she is in her alleged regret and vow to make it up to you (and rebuild that smashed trust until it's bigger than it was previously). Give her hell peppered with subtle signs of encouragement (find that balance). The person who legitimately regrets and hates themselves *welcomes* 100 lashes because you're basically doing FOR them what they would have done themselves. It's considered a favour. Also, a person who's had an epiphany can't *wait* to show it off to the other person concerned - this case, in the form of being seen to happily accept the length of their 'time'. Capiche?

PS: That's it for my 2-penneth-worth, BTW. I'll let Davey and the others take it again from here.

She's definitely messed up. I don't know if I believe everything is how she says now, but she seems to have had a very abusive past from family and ex bf for over a year. Was raped once too and has nightmares about it all. We had had a massive argument the night before and I kicked her out so she was in a bad way. BUT as you say, what is she, retarded? From the things you say I don't think she loves me like she says. She's not put up much of a fight at all and wouldn't explain why etc. I knew she was very sexual when we first started going out as she told me, and deep down I think I knew she was a big of a slag. To do it all without stopping, not tell me the truth or be that apologetic shows me she doesn't mean what she says. As you say actions are louder and they have scarred me for life. Mostly it's the anger/sadness I'm struggling to deal with. And even if there is a small part of me that wants her here with me, I know we will never what I want. Appreciate the comment. Thank you.

Okay, as no-one's taken this I'll respond for the moment. New data now confirms, yes, she is bouncing. And majorly. Including, post-row, getting over-the-top REVENGE. How long is the bouncing going to last? Could be quite a while. Analogy time (just to ensure this newly released self-respect doesn't go to ground again): You buy a cute little dog from pet rescue. It looks so lovable. However, it was previously abused so clearly isn't comfortable with contact so often - randomly - when you try to stroke and cuddle it, turns around and bites you. We're talking drawing blood, needing stitches and Tetanus injection. THAT can't go on, can it. So what do you do? Do you keep it out of pity, confusing major sympathy with love and believing the dog will change for the better given enough love and TLC over time, meanwhile denying your need to stroke and cuddle? Or do you conclude that neither one of you are benefiting, that the dog would be better off with a less tactile owner, someone who doesn't even need all that having a dog is supposed to provide, while you'd be better off with a dog that accepted affection and wasn't so unpredictable? She's just a girlfriend and evidently NOT The One (because the one ticks the three criteria of Right Person, Right Place, Right Time and clearly this isn't the right time of her life). Or she's ONE of the ones (your total soulmates) but not the optimum one, let alone ready. Persevering would be appropriate only were you already married and had enough great years under your belt, including having made kids and a mortgage together, etc. Back to the dog analogy: You can understand and sympathise as much as you like but you still have a future to be getting on with establishing. You have needs, including sense of security as comes from your love object being consistent and predictable. Because Trust (beyond the standard, readily available portion) *is* the ability, just under another name, to predict the other entity's attitudes, feelings, behaviour. You know them so you KNOW they would never do this/that/the other as warranted serious understanding as enables forgiveness. But forgiveness has to be asked for and earned; anything else is just acceptance and unending tolerance on your part. Trust is imperative. Without it, you can't love them and certainly can't FEEL loved. Life's too short for that kind of martyrdom. And no, I don't think she can love you ENOUGH either. In the battle between her not ever wanting to upset and hurt you and her need to bounce off the walls, she chose bounce. Why didn't she seek therapy once she met you, to preempt this bouncing rather than ever risk the relationship via this reaction ever surfacing? IS it a reaction or is it, as I said, her still having a destructive streak as an ingrained comfort zone? Or is it merely or additionally, someone who (out of gross immaturity) would rather take serious, damaging revenge on the back of every fight? You can't be happy with someone that hurt, confused, constantly preoccupied, over-primed for revenge-taking, not taking her primary relationship seriously, constantly trying-TRYING to keep everything swept under the rug (denial) until the day (starting now) that mound trips you up when carrying a teatray of expensive crystal (or a baby). That aside, that she hasn't really bothered to fight for you (as includes making sure you understand) EVEN NOW, says it all. *We lot* are the ones trying to help you understand; what are we - in love with you? See what I'm saying? Course you do. Case closed. I don't think she's a sl*g; that's too simplistic. I think she's got chaos inside her and is expressing that on the outside, using being a sl*g as her medium. But that chaos doesn't leave room for anything else, including you and your feelings taking priority, her taking responsibility for your welfare. I repeat - crap teammate (at this point only or always was and always will be?). Scar tissue toughens you up, and you'll have learned a valuable lesson. Value yourself whereby you don't take sh*t. Nip off behaviour in the bud next time. Other than that, do NOT make the mistake of blaming women or relationships because, again, the ex *and only the ex* used your relationship as a mere tool (a medium). It was just this: Right Qualities (yours), WRONG RECIPIENT (her). Me, I'm covered head-to-toe in scar tissue. Did I ever attribute blame for that to my once-boyfriend-now-husband? NO. That would have been thick as pig sh*t. He had no part in that formation and neither has he EVER added to it and nor would he. He would not risk his present and future happiness, his having found the holy grail, like that. (Plus, you give a dog a bad name (this case, just because other dogs were bad) and you may as well shoot it because it'll go on to live up to that label.) Right Qualities (mine), Wrong Recipients, now Right Recipient. That simple. There is nothing like getting enough wrong recipients or one humdinger of a wrong recipient to make you take a long hard look at yourself regarding how and why you ended up with a f*ckup in the first place. I say 'f*ckup* with understanding and pity, not anger, but f*ckup is the word, there's no avoiding that (PC ollocks or no). There were whiffs earlier on of her being a f*ckup, don't deny it... nobody jumps out of a cake going, 'Ta-daa, surprise-surpriiiise, I'm actually a f*ckup!', do they. That's what you did wrong. Ignored the little red flag/iceberg tips instead of pulled them up from under, saying, NO, I AIN'T 'AVIN' IT. Probably when you say that in your next relationship it'll be over something as benign but niggling as her failing to do her fairer share of Night-Night phoning once you're steadies or talking over Top Gear...whatever. My own 'Oy, stop that!' related to husband helping himself to things from the fridge without first checking if it was an ingredient for that week's supper (big deal!); the rest of the time I'm saying, '*Don't* stop!'. With the ex-husband and most ex-boyfriends, however, it was, 'Oy, stop trying to mistreat me!'. Exhausting. I couldn't get on with stuff. Too busy fielding their nonsense. I can't tell you how amazingly transformed and wonderful your life feels when capable of having your eyes on the important stuff and your future plans rather than the constant piles of their poo on the relationship carpet that they refuse to clean up thus insultingly leave to you. I would go through TEN divorces to get where I blissfully am today. I'm talking, REBORN. Once you realise and accept the fact you can't have half a relationship any more than you can half water an already sorry-looking plant without it looking ugly before inevitably withering to nothing, you'll do the candidate-interviewing for the position PROPERLY, meaning, you won't settle for anything less than perfect-for-you-*and-the-job* thus won't GET given that amount of crap later down the line. You'll choose someone who's ripe and ready and healthy and capable, and do it like it was meant to be done AND LIKE IT (love it). There's nothing like psychological pain to motivate you, finally. So blame yourself for having chosen her yet not screened her enough, and next time do your duty to yourself properly. That simple. Because what you've got on your plate right now is merely the RESULTANT DETAIL. Capiche? That ex seemed perfect in other regards is an encouraging sign that you were getting very close, almost there. So now - when you feel ready, like Davey said - start interviewing candidates again, and this time DON'T SKIMP ON THE 3-MONTH PROBATION PERIOD MONITORING/CHECKS AND DON'T SETTLE. You're looking for the cream of the crop and it actually *does* exist. The ones who say it doesn't were the lazy arses who couldn't be bothered to keep on with conducting interviews so settled. Right Soulmate, Right Place, RIGHT TIME (+ bud nipping) = Forevertogether, Super-yummy Love Pie, Amen. How long will the grieving take? Couple of months if you don't try to avoid it and treat yourself well; six months or a year if you faff about - always depends on the individual and their work ethic. Doesn't any task?

I appreciate your comment and I do like the dog analogy. She is definitely messed up and counselling is recommended. She recommended it once before. I've spoken to her since my last post and she says she's never cheated before and this is the first time on me. Would never do it again etc. The one thing she said to me when we met is not to cheat (I feel the same obviously) as she'd had it done to her before so pretty f**king ironic really! I managed to get a reason why. She says the reason for it were the thoughts of anger/betrayal etc from me throwing her out the night before and blocking her calls all day and that's what she thought of when I would pop into her head. Even though there were moments she enjoyed she didn't like it looking back and wouldn't want to do anything like it again e.g. online stuff. She says she just wants a normal relationship but knows we can't have what we had before but will have anything as long as its with me. Loves me and knows she wants to spend the rest of her life with me etc.... It's hard. And a major part of getting over someone is not doing things that remind you of them.. Well everything in my flat reminds me of her as we did it all together for months after I got my mortgage. Plus everything else that reminds me of her, it's difficult and I miss her. What I need to decide is whether I'm genuinely missing her or just staving off the loneliness. And whether I can even contemplate another go and what I'd even want, or whether I'd prefer to start with someone else sometime in the future. Though I don't see that happening. I can't look at any other women 'that way' still, certainly not in a loving way and it took me years after my last break up. And I mean years. Terrible I know, as much as I don't think I could love another woman for years, I don't know if I can ever really love this one again. It's a hard decision to me. I'm going to take more time to myself to try and figure out what I really want but I'll keep you updated and appreciate any more comments. I know everyone will think I'm crazy for even considering it.

(Scuse delay - was out of action yesterday.) Would never do it again. You two were approaching engagement. WHERE WAS HER TABOO if she's allegedly never broken it before? I don't buy it, sorry. Either because it shows her un-health or her determination to stick it to you or get herself fired or whatever. After all - could you? I'll answer that for you: NO. Why not? It's called, 'I'm thinking of doing X but even the thought is anathema, ergo I feel massively guilty and sorry just THINKING ABOUT IT!'. Correct? And then, when you add herself having (allegedly) sampled being a victim of that hellish nightmare into the mix, well... what can I say?! This: "If your lips are moving, If your lips are moving, If your lips are moving, then you’re lyin’, lyin’, lyin’, baby". I don't, however, mean lying about having been cheated on or never having cheated ON before. I'm talking about her past issues being so great that not even her own morals could stop her. That, mate, is like when the brakes on your car don't even PARTLY work WHEN YOU HAVE TWO SETS PER WHEEL! Not to mention the fact that the act itself was, as you quite rightly say, DISGUSTING (although I'd add debauched). Conclusion (on that benefit-of-the-doubt score): still 'F*CKUP'. Irony has nothing to do with it. And anger and betrayal SULK for hours or days. They don't psychologically grab a 12-inch knife and stab you through the heart and mind as puts you into Intensive Care on a pigging life-support machine, just because you metaphorically gave them a bit of a punch in the stomach! Is she *always* going to overreact like that? She'll tell you ANYTHING that sounds plausible, but the simple fact of the matter is she doesn't know her emotional a*se from her emotional elbow because she's got massive issues blocking her 'telly screen'. And that makes her Not Marriage Material. Not on your timeline. But it's your decision. If you'd rather settle than use this relationship as your springboard to the next 'automatic upgrade' or 'ultimate soulmate' (whichever point you're actually at); if you really can't handle the present psycho-physiological sensations as tell you you've already made good headway along the grieving process; if you believe you're so undeserving as to have to fix not just a broken relationship but (by virtue of her being so issue-ridden) one that was part-dud to begin with, then that's obviously your choice. But who on EARTH told you you can't have all the best bits of her *and* unerring loyalty *and* a reasonable attitude to normal, par-for-the-course fights, even humdingers? I don't know. You'd have to tell me what the fight was about. If *you* grossly overreacted by chucking her out then you and she are actually well-matched, stage-wise or commitment-shy-wise. I can't imagine you *did* overreact, though. Or you'd be doing it now...and you're not. See what I'm saying? She must have done something really intolerable for someone like you to have blown up like that OR had to have done lots and lots of little, drip-drip things that finally came to a head. RSvP. My vote is 'staving off the loneliness' - simply because if you weren't you wouldn't have thought to ask it. And, no, NO-ONE can face another 3-course-meal whilst they're still puking; I'm talking about when you're done and your stomach is empty. Oh, and don't automatically assume you'll take ANOTHER age any more than you could assume you can still poo into your pants because there must still be a nappy there. If it's a hard decision, DO NOTHING. WAIT. Nobody said you have to make it now-now-now, did they. "I know everyone will think I'm crazy for even considering it." Nope! Just DefCon-ed thus not thinking clearly yet. Again, standard stuff. Stop pressuring yourself, this is just processing. You don't make decisions until you've finished processing, right?

Thanks for the message. I must state first we weren't approaching engagement but we were about to trial living together. Everything you can is correct and definitely made me think. Not marriage material in my eyes even if I want what we had. She is saying all the right things now but I can't get my head around how far she let it go and that she enjoyed it. It's too much to believe everything she says now. The fight WAS bad and I DID overreact. At the time we had pregnancy tests for her as she had symptoms, though it turns out she's not pregnant. We didn't know at the time though. Anyway it started with something really small/silly and escalated to her ignoring me and not eating the food I made her. I was annoyed so thought I'd just go and take a shower leaving her to watch her animal program. She came in while I was showering, absolutely balling her eyes out. After ignoring me I wasn't overly impressed with the double standards of now instantly wanting me to be there for her. I swallowed it though and we hugged etc but I got annoyed at how long she was taking to spit out what she was crying about as she couldn't get it out. She was quite able to call me a jerk though once I got annoyed! Still couldn't spit it out despite my absolute best efforts of calming her down. When she eventually told me it was because a dog got put down on the program.. I thought it was something worse so I just said 'oh come on it happens all the time' as I stood there wet and uncomfortable. Her reaction was something like 'why did I have to go out with such a dick' or something to that effect and she stormed out the bathroom. I proceeded to get dry and change, wondering how it was now all my fault. I tried to let it got though and went in to talk/make up, but it was during this period she said 'I hope I'm not pregnant because at least then it's not your child.' I knew she didn't mean it but it was so hurtful and after the double standards etc I just wanted some space so asked her to leave. After trying for at least half an hour she wouldn't leave and it got physical when she tried hugging me, wouldn't let go and I wanted her off. Before I say anymore I already know this argument was pathetic and went way too far and it annoys me greatly that I could've prevented this. But her trying to grab me/me pushing her away turned into a bit of a wrestling match with me wanting the opposite which was to get her out. It went on for a long time and although I never hit her once I did hurt her in the process, especially after she bit my hand so hard I couldn't use it properly for nearly a week. Anyway... I eventually got her to leave and didn't speak to her that night or the next day, which is when the 'Brutal Truth' update comes in. As I said I'm so annoyed because I know I could've prevented it, but there's no excuse for doing what she did no matter how angry you are. As you say it's disgusting and debauched. She's now saying all the right things but the bottom line for me, which I always like to try and find, is that she didn't stop at any point, enjoyed it and was never going to tell me. How can I forgive that. And even if I could and wanted to try again, all innocence in lost which includes most of the moments I loved and I would always be thinking about it. It would always be there. I am coming to the conclusion that she can't love me that much, that I won't be able to lover her the same way and that I'm better off trying to move on. It's so hard walking around the flat though seeing her everywhere I go and memories etc. I've got six days off work and nothing to do outside of the flat which is just great. I'm trying not to speak to her until next week but I can only see that I let her go.

Soulmate has this covered.. I just want to add in my thoughts here.. She seems very prone to over-reacting outlandishly from reading these posts, something I assume she does a lot. Yet you list yourself as the 'bad guy' in the scenario. How does that work? It's like you're making excuses for her and blaming yourself for her over-reactions, that will only make you justify what she has done (or may do). If you justify it, so will she, then no matter who is actually in the wrong, you will both be agreeing to 'YOU' being the one at fault. Think on it, you have a small fall out, she goes in a huff like a child, you feel bad and try to make up for it (dinner, this is you apologising) she ignores you until you stop giving her attention, she decides she wants attention so makes a scene, you try to calm her down (being nice again), she takes offense and explodes now she has the attention she wants (see what I mean). It's as if she wasn;t happy about you ignoring her bad mood, so acted upset, stirring your protective nature (also maybe why you try and take the blame from her) so you give her attention, then once she knows she has her chosen audience (you) Ka-POW time for the the bad mood to rear it's ugly head and for your punishment to continue. But you kicked her out, how can she punish you when you don't let her around to do so? Well most folk would go on FB or something and call you names.. she goes one step further and goes to another guys house, and blames her mate you don't get on with as the instigator and no doubt you also for daring to chuck her out. I think you're allowing this sort of behavour as each time you try and resolve it or take the blame, you are being a sort of knight in shining armour for the poor damsel in distress.. problem is the poor damsel thing is more likely an act to get her own way at times.

(I'm quite happy to hand back to you, Davey, but you went AWOL for a while and said 'good luck, you'll be fine', which I took to mean, I'm done. Alternatively, let's 'Cagney & Lacey' it? My only insistence is that I get to be the pretty one...although I confess I'm not sure which one that was, LOL. Let me know or just carry on as you are in order to each keep covering any omitted angles, even if that omission is about lack of strong enough emphasis.) *********** What you describe up there, P, is just a typical lover's tiff. (You were *on the road* to engagement, was my point, not how far away from it you were or whether and when it might get made manifest or official.) But that you *did* fight, and that you *did* turn your own reactions dial up 3 notches, merely served in bringing to the surface her own lack of finesse/issues...a lack which made your own over-reaction seem quite mild. I'm sorry, but there is no justification for going as incredibly far as she did. You went to 'GIANT SULKING, PRIOR TO DEBRIEF, NOW PERMISSIBLE'. She went to 'DEALBREAKER!!!'. She is either ham-fisted or "NOBODY gets the better of me, I'll show him?!" [throws My Little Pony *at your eyeball*]. And here's the no-quibbling, bottom line: You overreacted when bang-slap in the heat the moment. She, on the other hand, HAD HAD AMPLE TIME TO CALM DOWN. Diff/all the diff/not marriage material. Vindictive piece of work. Anyone with more sense would have been aware of the extent of foolishness they were considering going to. Anyone who TRULY cared about not losing their supposedly precious, priceless relationship would have thought twice before throwing that indispensable crystal vase onto the marble floor because she is old enough to now that there is no superglue in the world that could ever permanently hide the fracture marks. Lack of cognition/Lack of care. WHICH? Either is a problem that needs addressing before you allow she and you to superglue that vase prior to having received concrete reassurances that that fiddly and time-consuming gluing isn't going to be for now't (i.e. might just get smashed to smithereens all over again next time). To make this clearer, let me put it like this: Yes, you yourself behaved stupidly as well with a punch slightly under the belt. But you did so within the confines of the boxing ring. Your opponent removed her gloves, got OUT of the boxing ring, got in her car, drove to your house, and machine-gunned your entire family. Or try another: you SPAT on the vase, she - instead of spitting back, even twice - smashed it. Alright? NO COMPARISON. I'm aware I'm basically replicating what Davey's just put (although at this point I've deliberately only glanced at his first paragraph). My reason for doing so is so that you can see, from it being in my own words, that Davey and I agree *independently*. And we can't *both* be wrong (not least because Cagney & Lacey were always, always right. ;-)) Have now just read Davey's final sentence, actually, and it's a trump-er: "problem is the poor damsel thing is more likely an act to get her own way at times." (Bring back spanking, that's what I say. They may be 'your' child today but tomorrow they're EVERYBODY'S ADULT.....that the nicer among us end up dating! :-o) By all means take her back if that's what you really want. But NOT until you've made her SWEAT-SWEAT-SWEAT! Because here is now to stop in its tracks any such rot from anyone (sane), FULL STOP: you make it *not worth HER while* to do that or anything like it again. Berbom. So what's your plan of action? Think about ways to make her sweat and, as said, realise her actions hurt HER far more than they did you. But take your time... because that's part of the making-her-sweat programme. HOWEVER, if you choose to do this, bear in mind: even if she suppresses forever-Amen that overly animal side of herself whenever with *you*, you still have to wonder about who she's possibly going to take it out on instead? What's she going to do if one day little Johnny or Joanna spills their juice? Whack them one around the head?! Maybe part of that sweating would be you making a condition of taking her back, her getting CBT or anger management (both)? Because even if we couldn't before (which evidently we could), Davey and I can both now SEE who did the prodding and who tried to 'de-prod', even if you can't (yet). Making dinner - particularly in that scenario - is a sweet, sweet and non-grudge-holding thing to do. *ACTIONS!!!* You clearly need a partner who'll HAVE that wholly occasionally necessary humdinger with you but, like you, will then quickly calm down and be nice again SO THAT the two of you can have a pleasant debrief with a view to turning those past lemons into future lemonade and getting back to happily shagging your faces off. So my OWN vote is this: Bleugh, no thanks. *Genuinely* too much like hard work. Next, you'll be fixing your car after a right-off for £2,500 when the damn thing cost only £1k to purchase to begin with. False economy, anyone? However, I do appreciate how that is far, far easier to say than do when you're still in the thick of it. But know this: you are *certainly* not the victim in all of this because.. look who's got the 'button' on their desk: YOU. Who gave it to you? SHE DID. Conclusion: self-harm merely THROUGH YOU; victim = herself. Take your time with a Cadbury's Caramel and then use that button wisely and kindly.