Is my ex stalking me?

Last February I began dating a man I have known for 42 years, we were best of friends growing up. We lost track of each other through the years, we both married, had families, etc. I was on Facebook and saw his pic under people you may know. I sent him a message, he immediately accepted the friend request. While talking to each other I learned that he was also now divorced. He asked if I would like to get together for dinner and catch up, I accepted. We went out for dinner and we hit it off great, began dating. We dated for 6 months, his ex girlfriend started texting him while I was there in the evening, he said she had also called him at work, he apologized for this, I said its not your fault. I told him at that time that if he were interested in her I would back out of the picture and we could go back to being friends only. He said no that is not what he wanted, I was the one he wanted to be with and he would get this stopped, well he said the next day he called her and told her not to call or text him, that he was involved with someone else and to show him the same respect that he showed her, when she broke it off with him. From that point there were no more texts or calls, that I know of for 2 months. In June I was on Facebook, I went to reply to a message he sent me and a pop up box came up next to his name, that said he had became friends with her that day. I replied to his message and I asked him about it and he said, I had nothing to worry about, that she sent the invite and he accepted. I told him I think this gives her a way to get back into his life again and he said no I wrong there was nothing to worry about, I said I trust what you say and I don't see a problem. In the next breath he started calling me a liar, said I was a snoop, how dare I go through his files, I'm like I didn't do any of this, I tried to explain to him how I saw it, he again said I was a liar, I tried to tell him its a feature when you use FB on a computer that you don't have on a phone. Again I was called a liar, and was told hit doesn't matter, the trust is gone now. Long story short we broke up at that moment, he deleted his profile, which he added back a few days later but this time he blocked me as a contact. This coming from a man that I watched go through my contact list and checked all the men on it, and pulled up their pics and wanted to know who they were. This is the man that called me a snoop and a liar. From the day we broke up, I stopped all contact with him, up to the present there has been no contact at all from either of us for the past 6 months. However, he has been driving past my house several times a week since we broke up, this wouldn't bother me but the fact that we live on opposites sides of town and I live on a remote street that is completely out of his way to come by. I have been getting phone calls that come through private number, and all they do is just sit will not say a word. This has been going on since the break up as well. The driving by and phone calls stopped for a couple months but have started up again just recently, he was dating someone I had heard, which I think was great he was moving on. A couple nights before Xmas, he came by my house at least 15 to 20 times that I know of. He rides a motorcycle that has a very distinct sound so I can hear the bike coming up the street before it reaches my house, I know its him, I have seen him go by. I don't feel threatened that he would hurt me, but I can't understand the behavior. You have a new girlfriend, your driving past my house several times a week, sometimes a day. Phone calls which I am going to assume is him, since I have an unlisted number and I don't give my home phone number out to very few people. I do have a cell phone, he doesn't have that number. I would like to know what you think of this behavior and why has he be doing this 6 months after we split up. I do not try to contact him in any way, I don't go past his house, I take another route just to keep from passing his house. Can anyone enlighten me on what they think of this behavior, am I being stalked or is he wanting to make amends for his actions and doesn't know how to go about it. I'm kind of at a loss trying to understand this.

I know its him have seen him its not a car, he is on his motorcycle. I don't have a clue what type of vehicle he is driving now, who knows he may be driving by more then what I know. I have a friend in law enforcement I asked him about this, he said unless he comes on my property or bothers me there is really nothing I can do about it. He said driving by it is a public street, so unless he would actually bother me, he is doing nothing wrong. I never changed the landline to the house for several medical reasons for my parent it was mainly used for life line, medical equipment, home care, etc. I think your right to change her number as well. I did change the cell phone numbers, that one I didn't think to change since I never really use that phone. I haven't confronted him because I don't want any contact with him, I have moved on from the relationship and I wish he would to, I figured if I ignored it he would get bored and move on which it did stop for a couple months now it seems to be starting up again. I thank you for your comment and your advice. Having someone else share their opinions opens your eyes to things you never noticed that may be going on, thank you for your input, it is greatly appreciated.

It's quite simple: Highest bidder wins. Exipoopoos kept being the higher bidder. Fawn, fawn, fawn, lick, lick, lick... He wanted you. But seemingly, you didn't reciprocate that strength of feeling. Here commencethed his trying to litmus test you... with his over-big, over-clumsy hands. SPLOSH!, went the litmus strip called Meet Your (cough!) Competition! ...Nothing to write home about... No "whaaah!", no "how dare you!!"... just calm, reasoned-out thinking. He dipped it again, even harder. ...Ditto. It's called pushing your buttons to see what strength, amount and volume of beeps and buzzes and flashes you give out. The more seriously into a man you are, the less capable you are of using [what is it again? oh yes! -] just calm, reasoned-out thinking. Or so, from his past experiences with women with much lower confidence than you, he believes. You could TELL he didn't think he was worthy of an upgrade, a woman of your calibre... (Is that true objectively or just in his low-self-valuing mind?) (whichever -) ...from the way he (so desperately) helped himself to your, at that point, private business - your contacts. I expect he was very relieved and grateful to her/the universe when his ex popped her head back out of the woodwork. Use her?... to make you sit up to attention and become keener? Sure! Absolutely! She deserves it, the [beeeeep!] I don't expect he's very relieved and grateful NOW, though. So, tell me, when WAS this horrific RTA he was involved in as left his mouth too deformed to form the words, 'I'm suh!.... I'm suh!....I'm SOH!...'? (Tell him I said, it's 'soh-REE'. :-p) He's bloody cowardly for a china-shop-roaming type of bull, isn't he? I should cocoa! I mean, why doesn't he just try the doorbell, why does he bring his own, portable one? :-p Oh, doesn't he want you more than he wants to avoid humiliating himself by letting you just how incredibly he was into you and didn't want to lose you? Evidently. I wonder why? Could it be, because then you might get CONFIDENT ...AS WELL AS DROP-DEAD GORGEOUS?... AND, NEWLY REALISING IT, START TO ATTRACT LOTS OF OTHER ADMIRING EYES?...ONES THAT ACTUALLY MAKE AN APPROACH?....WHICH YOU (like exipoopoos) MIGHT TAKE ONE OF THEM UP ON? Oooh, he can't have that, now, can he! Because then he'd lose 'her' all over again. 57p, please. :-)

PS: "who knows he may be driving by more then what I know" Who knows? [SM's hand shoots up!]

Thanks for the reply Soulmate, took me a bit to get through your fawn, fawn, licks, licks, lol, but I understand completely what your saying. I enjoyed dating him, we got along so well, the friendship we had after not being around each other, seemed to never have ended, just picked up where it left off. I never accused him of anything I simply said I didn't like it, I said whats next she will show up on the porch beating on your door. I mean she was calling him at work on his job, texting him while I was there in the evening. I didn't go off the deep end and call him a filthy cheat. I never called him a snoop for looking through my contact list, it is in fact social media, that is why its there, so what would I have to hide. It was his choice to end he relationship, past experiences actions speak louder then words to me that said hey you busted me. I don't know maybe I was wrong maybe I wasn't who knows. I simply obliged him, I won't chase him if that is what he wanted, I dusted the dirt off and moved on. I left it as it was with no contact what so ever. Maybe that insulted him, he is very ego oriented, since I didn't chase after him and plead and beg him to take me back. Maybe my actions insulted because I didn't chase after him. I'm not doing that life is to short I'm a middle aged woman and he is a grandpa, I think we have both are a bit old and have outgrown the chase game. Sorry, but he is not my only option for a date. I don't bother him in anyway, but if it makes him feel good to drive past my house, then I guess its his gas loss. I think picking up a phone would be much easier then doing what he does but I guess that wouldn't tell him if there are cars parked outside my house. I'm not scared of him in anyway just trying to understand what may be going through his mind after 6 months. When I'm home the motorcycle is a dead give away, I hear it coming before it gets to my house, you are exactly right that is his way of saying hey I'm here. I think you are right about several things you mentioned, thanks for taking the time to reply to my post, it is very much appreciated.

This guy seems to have a pattern which started before the latest behavior. 1. You said you offered to get out of the picture if he was int. in her. He said no he was int. in you. And that he would fix the situation. Well, we now know he was int. in her, and he didn’t fix the situation with her, so he has a pattern of not telling the truth, and that’s n going to be causing problems later on. 2. Soon he becomes friends with her on Facebook, a direct contradiction to his fixing the problem with her and that he’s only int. in you. 3. “I asked him about it and he said, I had nothing to worry about, that she sent the invite and he accepted. That’s another mistruth, you have nothing to worry about. 4. “told I him I think this gives her a way to get back into his life again and he said no I wrong there was nothing to worry about.” That’s 2 more mistruths. 5. “I said I trust what you say and I don't see a problem.” You’re leveling with this guy, and he has a pattern of deception. There’s a huge gap between you two. 6. “In the next breath he started calling me a liar, said I was a snoop, how dare I go through his files, I'm like I didn't do any of this, I tried to explain to him how I saw it, he again said I was a liar, I tried to tell him its a feature when you use FB on a computer that you dond't have on a phone.” “Again I was called a liar, and was told hit doesn't matter, the trust is gone now.” Seems like this is where this guy’s pathology breaks open. It seems he wants to check all of your boyfriends on your phone, but if you even open his facebook account, you’re a no good snoop. And if you catch him in a lie, that means you’re a liar. This guy is totally turned around, and if you catch him at it, it means you’ve betrayed the trust, and it is over. That’s the complete opposite of what is going on. This guy doesn’t like losing to females, and if he gets caught in a scam, he can’t wait for you to dismiss him, he has to declare that he’s breaking up with you because of your problem with not trusting a scam artist. So when he gets caught with the first scam, he immediately employs the second scam of he’s forced to breakup with you, because you have trust issues. My wife was a scam artist, not with passing off $1 bills as $100 bills on the street, but with her life. She was sex abused and was a borderline personality syndrome person, who had a divided ego from the trauma as a child, and was like two people. You might look that up on the net to see if this guy has those characteristics. I think he does. I’ve known another such individual who was also sex abused, and was a borderline, and she also could switch cons so fast you couldn’t hardly catch it. For instance, she never told me of her boyfriend who lived with her, and when I found out, I asked her about it, and she said, “Oh, yes I do have a boyfriend, and he is the worst boyfriend in the world.” See how fast the con changes? As you said, in the next breath, they change between day and night. I think the fact that this guy was trying to date both women could be an indication that he had two sides, or a divided ego. My now deceased of a long illness wife had numerous boyfriends, and was very calm about living 2 lives, because it came natural to her with a divided ego. She was truly honest, both with her boyfriends and to me. Except there was a direct conflict. When I caught her with having boyfriends, the pathos erupted, and she declared that she had tried to love me, but that I was unloveable, or something like that, as she completely turned everything around from her being caught having an affair, to me being unloveable. Borderlines don’t have a personality. What they do have is pathological anger, and when they get caught living two lives, they erupt, it is their escape hatch, and from that platform of anger, they declare that the other person is the villain, which they truly believe, and which they have to defend themselves from. The inappropriate anger is a surprise, as is their ‘reasoning,” which is totally detached from reality. Which is the world they live in. Also missing is any remorse.

Thanks for your reply PJVL9, I believe much of what you have said, as some of those thoughts have crossed my mind already. I do believe he has some type of issue what it is exactly, I don't know, you may very well be right. I have known him since we were young our families were good friends we stayed at each others house, etc. For many years we never saw each other only an occasional run in. Let me tell you this behavior is nothing like he was when he was young. He can't stand to be told no, the FB issue all I said was I didn't like it, and I don't have to like it. I knew what was going on, she wanted back in his life. I wasn't blind or stupid. I think he was in contact with her the whole time after she text him, I think he thought I would never find out. Thank you FB, for having that feature. Something that is provided as a feature is not snooping, I told him I could prove what I was saying was true, he said it doesn't matter, the trust is gone. You don't trust me over a feature on social media, okay fine, I knew he was lying, he was to defensive. He knows I'm not stupid he was busted and couldn't talk his way out of this one so he turned the tables on me. Which fine block me, delete me, who cares, go your merry way and go be with your good friend. I don't need someone that does that. I went through that with my husband when I was married. I swore I would never deal with it again and I haven't. After 6 months of being apart and he has been seeing others, why come past my house on a remote street completely out of his way when we live on opposite sides of town. Two nights before xmas he came past at least 15 to 20 times that I know of. Its to check up on me, why because he can't stand to be told no, he can't handle the fact that I didn't chase after him, that is getting to him, because I moved on, why can't he, because his ego won't allow him to. I'm not scared of him in any way, because I honestly do not believe he would ever try to hurt me. However, I do believe that he can't stand the thought of me moving on. I don't think he is handling the fact that I rejected him, by not chasing after him. When we were young he liked me very much, his mother told me that, I never mentioned it because she said he was afraid it would ruin the friendship if it didn't work out, so we never got together. Now that he has been in a relationship with me. I don't think he likes the idea of someone else stepping into that place. Creepy thinking about what is going on his mind. I do believe he is a chronic liar, but hes not very good at it. I am truly sorry that you went through that with your wife. I hope she is resting in peace, and that you have found peace as well. Thank you again for your advice, I am going to look up those and check the characteristics of each and see if that is what may be wrong with him.

Reply to PJVL9, I checked out the disorders these are not him, he doesn't match the criteria, however, I do feel he has issues. I think after being married for so long this new fresh freedom he has, I think he wants a relationship but once he gets it everything else looks good as well. Yes I reread both comments that was sent to me, after going back and rereading them both make perfect sense. I was semi involved with a guy that is well off financially. We tried for several months to get together, the desire to be together was there, just no time with our schedules. There was always something that came up to interfere with our plans. We are still friends, I have no reason to hate or banish him, when nothing happened between us to cause that. There was no time, plain and simple. I told him, I had waited long enough, but I was in fact going to see other people, he said he understood and was sorry. We don't hate each other at all. My ex asked me why I chose him, when he had so much to offer me and that he had nothing. I said because its not material gain I want, I want to spend my time with someone that his there for me, and your there, you make me happy and I enjoy spending my time with you. This was the specific one he was looking for in my contacts. I felt no need to delete him, he was on my contacts long before him, and there is no bad feelings from either of us except a friendship. The same as with all other males on my contact list. Just as my ex has many women as friends on his contacts, I never went through it I didn't care, but he added the ex after he told me he handled the issue. That is what bothered me, if you tell someone not to call you or text, then you don't friend them, I would be insulted if he had done that to me, being such a good friend as he called her. Had she already been on his list of contacts I don't feel I would have had a right to say hey delete her. but after the fact of dating me for 6 months, and telling me he broke contact with her. I said I would step back and let him go if he wanted to be with her, there was no need to treat me the way he did. I did nothing to deserve to be treated like a dog on the street, I showed him respect, kindness and was his friend for many years. His last words to me before I got banned was shes my good friend, you are nothing. I told him I offered to step back there was no need for you to be this way towards me, but now that you have done this, go be with your good friend and when she dumps you again in 2 weeks, don't come banging at my door or calling on my phone because I am done with it. I do not need his kind in my life.

Good to see that you have a good attitude. It will serve you well, as it already has. Since, I have been going through the same harassment you have been, I wrote down some things you might want to consider if it continues. ----------------------------------- In a way, his behavior is no different than it was from the time you first started dating in feb. to xmas making it say, around 9 months. It’s just that since you’ve quit dating him, his erratic behavior has gone from inside the relationship to outside of it for 6 months. It’s just moved. It’s the same behavior. I’ve been dealing with my erratic neighbors for over 8 years. It’s been reduced now to about one person. About six weeks ago, a neighbor came onto my property at about 2:30 a.m., and took a hammer with a towel and broke a corner of my front wind shield on my car as it sat in the driveway. He caused other problems before and after that, I would say that was on a level of your person driving by your house and calling you on the phone. I would consider changing my home phone number, as someone else has said. I would consider putting my cell phone on where a call goes straight to message, and return only the ones you want to. As far as inside the house, I’ve have steel poles which go up under the door handle, down 3 feet to the floor. If my lock fails, the steel pole won’t. You don’t know if your door locks work or not until somebody puts their shoulder onto the door. You know the pole lock works for you can pull on it as hard as you want, and it won’t open. I had a guy put his shoulder to one of my ex. doors a year ago, and he broke one of the 2 locks on my door, the handle lock held, which is the only reason he didn’t get in my house. After that, I put a steel pole on each of my 3 ex. doors. I have one pole next to an interior hall door, so that even if someone got into my house, I would simply step behind the interior hall door, and/or to my bedroom door, put the steel bar under the door handle, and there’s no way he’s getting through the door, as I call police, or get out a weapon. I also have security cameras. In addition, I have motion detector spotlights which will allow the cameras to see at night if someone approaches a door or my car. I also have a mike to pick up sound. You know, like the sound of my windshield being busted. And I have someone who installed the cameras who said they will help me transfer the data from the cameras to my computer so I can show it to the police if need be. My first such cameras were sold to me by a con artist. I never got any support with transferring the data to my computer part of it, so getting good support along with the cameras is critical. If you can, ask around for anyone who knows of a good security camera company, which gives follow up support. If things get too bad, you can look in the computer yellow pages for a private detective. And whereas the police might not be enthused, you can hire a private detective to knock on some doors, ask questions, give advice, maybe slow this guy down some. Maybe give you advice like, put an outdoor, hidden, security camera on the road in front of your house, it will just stay on all day and night. Each time he rides by, write down the day and time. After even the first time, you can check camera screen to see how well it got the picture. After whatever number of times, 1, 5, etc., see if you can get someone to transfer the pictures from your security screen via a cigarette lighter looking thing, to your computer so you can see it there. Just save the times he drove past your house, say 30 seconds each example, as many samples as you want. Then put the cigarette lighter looking thing to the front of your tower for your computer, and see where it saves to your computer so you can call it up on the screen. You might be able to do this yourself. If you have a private eye, he could knock on his door and tell him, we’ve got video evidence of you driving past her house 5 or 10 times, why were you doing that? This might slow him down or stop him. Free private eye is the police. If you have him on tape, you can show it to police and they might knock on his door for free. That will shake him up. What about a device for your phone that records the conversation or from which you can determine which number called you that you can show to police? The phone company has a list of things they can do for you if you get crank calls, such as locate the number, report the number, block the number, etc. I would have that list of things by my phone—I do-- in case I get fed up enough with these harrasers. You can buy some of this video stuff at Wal-Mart or on the net for a pretty low price. Find someone to install it on the cheap. You might can put it up yourself by reading the directions. Another thing which is helping me is my secret weapon: I read a column on being positive when trying to solve problems 10 years ago, and it’s really helped, didn’t know that unconsciously I was negative. It’s really helped me, with this and other problems. I have been living under these cond. for over 8 years now, so I know what being under duress is about.

I hope this does not escalate to the level that yours has reached, I doubt that it will he is a boss at a local company he will not do anything that could jeopardize that and make him look bad on his job. I honestly believe he can't handle the fact that I have not made contact with him. I don't hate him, I just really want nothing to do with him. He chose to end the relationship on the terms that he did, I just went along with it. He is not worth the effort to me. Why would I want to chase someone who made it clear to me that I was nothing, not even a friend. I never disrespected him in anyway and this was how I was treated. This is the type of person I don't need in my life period. When it stopped for awhile I thought he finally went away, I heard he was seeing someone. I thought yes, now hes gone but I would assume that it has ended since he has started coming by again. The thing I don't understand is why come past my house and check on me, when he clearly said i was nothing to him, he ended the relationship, he chose to block me. I didn't do any of that it was him. Now he has to learn that there are consequences to his actions, and that is plain and simple there is no place for him in my life anymore. He can drive by 50 times a day and set on the curb in front of my house, it won't change how I feel towards him. He took a friendship of 40 plus years and destroyed it for a bar fly, and that is what she is, I have known her since she was young to. Nothing good about her, all she does is lay in a bar every weekend, and picks up with whomever will have her. That is what he wanted, and now he can have it, because I am not an option any more, either is the friendship. What is done is done and he needs to realize that, I am going to check into some of the things you told me about. Even if its not him, I do think security is a good thing these days. I do have prowlers around here. You have given me some good advice that is needed whether it is him or someone else. Thank you.

PVJL9, I do have caller ID, all calls come through private number so they are blocking to keep me from seeing who it is. I have also, been getting friend invites for the past several weeks from someone with fake profiles. When I sent a message to the last one asking who they are, amazingly the profile was deleted that day. Coincidental, I don't think it is, since I was blocked by him, the only way he can see me is by using a fake profile. Otherwise we are invisible to each other. I do have my FB account completely private the only way to see anything other then my profile picture is to be an actual friend.

Glad things seem to be going good for you. It might have something to do with how strong and good of a person you are, but that's just a guess. Two other security things I didn't mention above. One is that, motion detector lights (even without security cameras) on the front porch or back, or by your car, can deter crime, for the criminal doesn't know if you have cameras or not. He also doesn't know if you turned them on, or see them on, and are about to call the police. Another thing is, you don't have to open your door when someone knocks. I don't. You can just not open the door, and call police if they don't get off the front porch, or you can talk through the door and ask them what they want. If they say they are lost or want to do yard work, or some such made up story to get you to open the door, just say, "I can't help you." Again, if they don't get off the porch, you can call police. The door is your last line of defense. If you open it, you've got no defense. (I also have a curtain over my kitchen door which has windows, and when I leave that room, I pull the curtain, so someone coming up on the back porch, gets no information about if someone is in the room. If they can see me there, they might can con me "open the door! this is an emergency!" I've been conned like that on the street, so I know how that works. But the curtain takes away the con, and gives them no data.) As a senior citizen, living alone, yeah, the criminal element knows about that. As I get weaker, I have to get smarter and realize that I don't have a backup if something goes wrong, so I have to think more than I use to about that. You've got the dynamics of the relationships going full bore. You work with that, and let me handle the security.

PJVL9 thanks again for your input, you are right a middle aged woman living with an elderly parent you can't be to safe, especially these days. I don't open my door to anyone, in fact, tomorrow I am going to call and see about having a security system installed in my house. I have read some more on the personality disorders you referred to, he does have a few characteristics of borderline personality disorders, but his is more ego oriented. He loves to boast about how much money he makes, what he (used) to have before his divorce, and so on. This didn't impress me, I told him money doesn't impress me, it is a necessity in life to get the things you need, it doesn't make everyone happy. I assured him again that being with him is what was making me happy, I didn't care if he lost everything he had in his divorce. I told him, that is not why I said yes when you asked me out. I make my own money, I don't need him to support me. I have noticed a pattern with him it seems like if he is told no, or that you say you don't like something, this just seems to send him out of control. Immediately you are creating drama, the first time I saw this was when he asked me to move in with him, I said I don't think we have dated long enough, he said we have know each other 40 plus years, I said yes that is true, but we haven't been around each other for many years. I think we need to give it a few months and see how it goes. Immediately he had to be by himself, (1st break-up), he had to find himself. I thought then that this behavior was over the top. I gave him his space after a month he came back apologized, and we started dating, I did tell him that if that happened again, there would be no more chances, we would be done completely. He agreed and said he would work on being able to set down and discuss things like adults do. Things were good for a couple months then the FB incident. Immediately, it was drama, as with the first time, I said well so much to sitting down and talking like adults. He said it don't matter the trust is gone, I was like okay how did I violate your trust, he wouldn't talk about it. The whole bottom line was I questioned his actions, and said I didn't like it (the big no no). He started the name calling, threw his tantrum, the whole time I was getting more upset, because of the things he was throwing out that I was not being given a chance to show him he was completely wrong about it. I finally blew up and told him off, and told him what he could do with his good friend, basically where he could shove her. That is when he said we were done, sorry but this isn't going to work anymore. All fine with me at this point, I was at the end of my rope by now. After months of no contact with me, not one word spoken to each other, by text, phone, etc. Why keep coming by my house. Go away he got what he wanted, I am not bothering him, or is his ego so huge that he can't handle the fact that a woman has rejected him, that I have not made any attempt to reconcile. I just went away, the connection was broken, I moved on. Why can't he. I think the first break-up he was in contact with her. I can't prove it but was just a feeling I had at the time. Either way, he made the choices, it wasn't me, but I knew nothing good was going to come of it. That is why when he ended the relationship, I was done with it, because I know no matter if we worked this out, it would happen again the next time something comes up that I don't like. Sadly but this isn't drama this is how adults communicate, they have to be able to sit down and talk when an issue arises if you want to have a long term relationship with someone. I don't know how he stayed married for as long as he did, his wife must have been a complete mute in the relationship. That is not for me, I am completely outspoken, and have never had a problem saying what is on my mind. I don't try to dominate in any relationship I have been in, I think a man needs his space as well as a woman needs hers. You can't spend every waking hour with someone. When I would say I think I am going to stay home this evening, after working, right now why was I mad at him, I was like im tired I worked all day I want to call it a night early. Then it would be well are you mad because I had dinner with my kids, please give me a break, mad over his kids, that is just completely out of reason. I know some people are jealous, that is not me, if I went to supper with my kids, I would expect that he wouldn't be upset over it. This is the type of behavior I had to deal with, again because he didn't get his way I said I was staying home. There is definitely a patter to his behavior the more I set back and look at the things that happened. At the time I didn't notice it. He was smooth no doubt about it. I think I made the better choice of leaving the relationship as ended the more I set back and think about the things that happened.

Shannon63: 1. As for getting a security system for your house: a. I called ADT (ads on TV). Lady said, what do you need it for? “I said people and noise next door and guy trespassing and breaking windshield.” She said, “Our cameras don’t have mikes.” Also, I can’t rem. what she said about ex. cameras, don’t know if they have those or not. Maybe just have a camera for your living room, which I don’t need, I need it pointed at my car and front and back porch. So, maybe even when you call them, ask what they have. I want to say a company might be better for security cameras, for an individual , like I got the first time, might can way overcharge (mine did), and have no support if you have a question. A company would be more likely to have that. Where I got my 2nd system only about a month ago, I called my computer store and asked if they did security cameras. They said they did and I got a great guy on the phone, who put a camera on my front and back porch, and one at my neighbor’s house. Kept the mike near my car. Was told by another great guy, a private eye,free on the phone, you need motion det. spotlights for the cameras. He said, get those put up first, then the cameras, because (enemny number 2, broke my windshield) might retaliate if I (private eye) knock on his door . So if he comes back to damage your car, you’ll be ready.” You can see, I stay busy. Had another great guy put up motion detector spot lights for front, back and car, so the camera can see that at night. What night-vision cameras need is a little light, but can’t get an image in total dark, which was where I was. So I got motion det. spot lights, to give the cameras light. 2. Personality disorders, you’re right, there are a list of them, with borderline among them. So we're going to rule out borderline, like you said, but he does have a pattern. I don’t know what it is, but he has it. I was also wondering, like you indicated, why his wife divorced him. If he cheated on you in dating, maybe he cheated on her, and was being dishonest about it like with you. You say he didn’t like to be told no, he goes out of control. I have read that some men if turned down by a woman, can get bad. He might have an anger personality disorder, as long as we’re talking about per. dis. My dad had that and my brother. Was he overly nice when things were going good, as if “don’t make me mad and you’ll be OK,” and then vicious when you disagreed with? Didn’t want to talk about it, was just greatly angry? Did he converse OK? A lot of anger per. dis. people basically don’t talk at all. They’ll answer questions, yes or no often, but they don’t initiate conv., from my experience. If you’re talkative, you might not notice that, because you’re talking for two. Was he quiet most of the time if you weren’t talking? The fact that he carefully went over your phone for boyfriends, is also part of the pattern, as he may be isolating you from all other contact, you mother, male friends, and is drawing you in, while two-timeing you, which we know now was in the cards the whole time. That guy is pretty sly. You may know a lot about a lot of stuff, but you don’t know a lot about pathology, most people don’t until they are married to one like my now deceased from a long illness, she smoked, wife, and she got caught with boyfriends. And, as with your former friend, she exploded when she got caught. She went off the charts, and you don’t know what trapped is until you've been in that situation, and with a child, buying a house together; there is no way to win, with trying to do the best for your child, also. I often des. our marriage as, two dogs in a pit, with her dog knowing I can’t get out without hurting our child. You might be the luckiest person in 5 states, as his first wife knows. This guy is leading a double life. Your having absolute boundries and criteria, which he wasn’t meeting, is the only thing that saved you. Think how many will fall prey to that guy, and how close you came. You can thank your parents for your upbringing and your genes that you escaped that. That’s also why he was saying how much money he makes. He’s luring you in. The next woman might not be so lucky. This guy does have a classification. Keep looking on the net, and I will too, with per. dis. a good start, as you noted. Also, the fact that he explodes with the truth about him, drives up and down in front of your house, and left you for a month when you wouldn’t move in…whoa. The plot thickens. Also the fact that he went outwit a barfly, who slept with everyone, is telling. He needed you for authenticity, and her for the kind of time he really likes. This guy does have two sides. We know that side of him. What was he like when he being “really nice,” to draw you in? I once read about anger dis., he’ll have the biggest smile on of anybody in the room.” Did he have a plastic smile? That’s my older brother. In a social situation, oh, hail fellow, well met. In our room that we shared growing up, if you stood up to him, he’d flatten your ass. Walk out of the room where there was company, big smile. You never roomed with this guy, so you haven’t seen that side. You were always the 4 hours a week person. Try 24 hours a day, for a month, and see what happens. Since you mentioned personality disorder, I had forgotten borderline was one of that group, I looked on the net for anger per. dis. to back up my new belief of that’s what he was. I was wrong, but your mentioning of personality disorder put me in that line of web sites, and I called up one named, narcisstic personality disorder. This so fits him I think I ought to charge you for this. Here goes the download for that. Be sitting down when you read this. psychone.net Narcissistic Personality Disorder Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a condition that is defined by a pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: • Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g.., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements). • Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love. • Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions). • Requires excessive admiration. • Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations. • Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends. • Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others. • Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her. • Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes. Associated Features Vulnerability in self-esteem makes individuals with Narcissistic Personality Disorder very sensitive to "injury" from criticism or defeat. Although they may not show it outwardly, criticism may haunt these individuals and may leave them feeling humiliated, degraded, hollow, and empty. They may react with disdain, rage, or defiant counterattack. Such experiences often lead to social withdrawal or an appearance of humility that may mask and protect the grandiosity. Interpersonal relations are typically impaired due to problems derived from entitlement, the need for admiration, and the relative disregard for the sensitivities of others. Though overweening ambition and confidence may lead to high achievement, performance may be disrupted due to intolerance of criticism or defeat. Sometimes vocational functioning can be very low, reflecting an unwillingness to take a risk in competitive or other situations in which defeat is possible. Sustained feelings of shame or humiliation and the attendant self-criticism may be associated with social withdrawal, depressed mood, and Dysthymic or Major Depressive Disorder . In contrast, sustained periods of grandiosity may be associated with a hypomanic mood. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is also associated with Anorexia Nervosa and Substance-Related Disorders (especially related to cocaine). Histrionic, Borderline, Antisocial, and Paranoid Personality Disorders may be associated with Narcissistic Personality Disorder. - See more at: http://www.psychone.net/disorders/narcissism-definition.php#sthash.G7UvUmA4.dpuf ---------------------------------- We’re going to give you credit, also, for having said, “I have read some more on the personality disorders you referred to, he does have a few characteristics of borderline personality disorders, but his is more ego oriented. He loves to boast about how much money he makes, what he (used) to have before his divorce, and so on.” So “ego oriented” and “narcissist” are the same thing, so you picked up on that, also. If money had impressed you, as you noted about him telling you how much money he made, you might be Mrs. Charles Barton right now, three months pregnant, and right in his line of sight to cash in on all of his hard work. You might have gotten closer to that than you realize. A few less brains cells and you’re there. That’s why he exploded after you refused to move in with him. You were his life plan, not just a casual request. And your child would have caught it, also. You need to get down on your knees tonight before you go to sleep and thank God for giving you the scruples and high standards that you have. There but for the grace of God go you. You said, “There is definitely a pattern to his behavior the more I set back and look at the things that happened. At the time I didn't notice it. He was smooth no doubt about it. I think I made the better choice of leaving the relationship...." This is miraculous. When I first mentioned borderline in the very first post, you came back with, basically, “absolutely not.” But there you were, sitting in this situation, not having a clue what was going on all around you, and that your future was being planned by this scam artist. You couldn’t allow yourself to see that, but now it’s seeping in. People were telling me not to marry my wife, also, but I was in such a rough situation, it looked like up to me. I didn’t see my wife’s cheating on me for the first 7 years, even though the clues were there. If you had told me, borderline, I wouldn’t have believed it. I would have been in denial. The only way I found out was, she quit a job out of town when he quit the same job out of town, and she had to tell me she was leaving, which was soon after she told me he had resigned. As she told me at that time, “You’re easy to fool,” as she had fooled me for 7 years. By the end of 16 years of that behavior, I figured she had over 2,000 episodes during our marriage. You said (when you told him no more quitting the relationship for a month over my refusing to move in with you) "He agreed and said he would work on being able to set down and discuss things like adults do.” That line is classic. He comes up with great lines when you’re strong enough to threaten to leave because of his unusual behavior. He can’t work his childish magic if you leave, so he comes up with his best lines. He promises to talk like adults do, which means he’s not, and he’s trying to distract you from that, from your realizing he has temper tantrums. We all know now he didn’t sit down like an adult (as you said in an earlier post), but called you a liar, when you again challenged. The "line" is not the true him, the true him is calling you a liar when you’re strong enough to catch him in a deception, and bring it up to him. Just as with my wife, the true her was not the hundreds of “I love you’s,” while she was having affairs, but the “Leave!!!” our house and out child when she got caught. The fact that our child would not have had a father in the home, was of no concern. Again, that was the real her. Here was the plan with you: 1. Ask for a date. 2 treat you like royalty at first. 3. Get you emotionally hooked. 4. Get the sex started, which is like a drug (adrenaline) which gets you deeper emotionally and physically hooked (with him just having sex (like with the barfly, but you can’t marry a barfly), and going through the fake emotions to get you trapped). 5. Get you to move in with him, during which he stays on his fake good behavior, which you believe is real. 6. Get you to marry him. 7. Plays the part of good husband, who now wants you to have a baby. 8. You have the baby. 9. Game over. He now starts treating you like a dog. 10. You can’t leave because now you’re attached to the baby. 11. You and the baby lose. 12. You catch him running around on you but you can’t leave because of the baby. No, that was my marriage. Wait a minute. Does any of this make sense? All it is, is my life relived, but putting your name in there instead of mine, and the clues that you’ve given me. Can you ask a friend of his wife, “yeah, what happened with his first marriage?” I’ll bet she’ll say, “He cheated on her.” Of course, they had the kids before he really started treating her badly, but that didn’t hold her like he was hoping it would. That’s what would have happened with your child. If there was a divorce, which you said there was, it might be on the net under legal proceedings for that county of your state. Maybe she was asked, “What legal grounds do you want to get a divorce?” and she said, “Adultry.” That might be on record. You might can find that on the net. Again, before bedie-bye, on your knees in prayer. I don’t know what you did to get such a break, but you got one.

He could be narcissistic personality disordered or he could just be DefCon-ed and reactively commitment-phobic and therefore just doing a damned good impression, like every other still-recently rejected mid lifer with still overly sore nerves and insecurity atop of the usual badly-wanted-relationship-induced portion, who tries too soon to enter into a new relationship and accordingly ends up behaving 'less than'. Shannon, do you realise that if this guy or any other in his same position were to witness this thread, particularly your saying over and over in myriad ways that basically you're over him and relieved it's ended, they wouldn't believe you? Why? Because it falls into this classic: Him: [brringg-brringg...] Hello? Her: It's me. I don't want a conversation, I just thought you should know that I am so over you and don't give a sh*t that you ended it, in fact I'm PLEASED! [click!] Him: (Yeah, evidently) See what I'm saying? You SURE-sure-sure you're completely done where he's concerned?

Yes he is narcissistic, that is him, 100 percent, on the nose. Everything is about him, everyone wrongs him, he does nothing to no one its everyone doing to him. He cheated on his wife with their best friends daughter, he feels, the wife wronged him because she took everything he had, he got what he deserved. The humiliation they caused to both families and spouses of each. They should have lost everything. I learned of this after the break-up, it appears I work with the ex husband of the daughter. The only remorse my ex said when we started dating that if he could go back and change the situation, because of the hurt that he caused to his family and friends. I didn't go into detail or ask for details, it really wasn't my business, but it did tell me he had history of cheating. Alert, to me not to jump into this with both feet. When he started the moving in together so quick after starting to date, no I wasn't ready for that yet, I said lets give it 6 months and see where things are, immediately he went off the deep end and had to break up to go find himself. 1st sign he can't be told no. Then he came back after almost a month, apologized, things picked up where they left off. Until the FB incident, 2nd sign, I questioned what he had done. I said I trust what you say is true, his reply how dare you say you don't trust me, I have never given you a reason to not trust me, that was the 3rd sign, he didn't read what I typed he saw what he wanted to see, I didn't trust him, what I said was the opposite. I knew then this wasn't going to work any longer. He just gave me every reason in the book not to trust him. The way he became so defensive and tried to turn the tables on me, told me I caught him doing something he shouldn't have been doing. He cheated on his wife of 25 plus years, what would make me so special that he wouldn't. There was no feelings of hey I am sorry, everything was how I wronged him, how he didn't trust me, I was a liar, snoop, etc. The whole time I am thinking yes your guilty, guilty, guilty. The more defensive he became, I knew it was time for me to move on. He sees nothing wrong with anything he does, but is very judgmental of everyone else. When you choose to dissolve a 40 year friendship and destroy a relationship, I don't care if he has 500 female friends on FB, the ex was the one that bothered me, the rest were not calling and texting him while I was there and at all hours of the night, and on his job. The ex had reason, she wanted back in his life. Yes I didn't like that it, that didn't make me a bad person, that made me like any other normal woman in a relationship. I feel his actions were not upfront, he was being deceptive or he wouldn't have been so defensive over it. If he had said I am sorry, I didn't realize that this would be a problem, I will delete her because this relationship is what is important to me. That wasn't the case, I was told SHE was his good friend, and implied that I was nothing, the tables were turned on me that I was the one who had done the wrongs, I could prove that I did nothing wrong. He wasn't having that, so my feelings at that point are get on down the road, and don't bother me go talk to your good friend. I was in the wrong yes I was, I mean after 6 months of dating, being asked to move in, spending nights, yes I was wrong to assume that we were in a relationship, what the hell was I thinking, how dare I question anything he did, I mean if were were a couple yes but clearly I was wrong about that. That old expression of everything looks greener until you get to the other side, well now he has had me in his life and now he has found out what its like to not have me in it again. That is why he can't move on he drives past my house, several times a week, trying to see if a strange car is parked outside my house, etc. I have moved on I want no contact with him, I don't hate him, I feel sorry for him, because with his thinking he will never have a lasting relationship with anyone. That is truly sad. I am sure this new woman he is dating now is a wonderful person, but she will get the same treatment that I got if she ever questions anything he does. Same story different woman. She looks like a librarian so she definitely looks the type that will let him push her around. He is dating her, and driving past my house several times a week, this poor woman doesn't have a clue. Truly sad.

We tracked that guy down. The good person won. I’m glad you escaped. You said, “I said I trust what you say is true, his reply how dare you say you don't trust me, I have never given you a reason to not trust me, that was the 3rd sign, he didn't read what I typed he saw what he wanted to see, I didn't trust him, what I said was the opposite. I knew then this wasn't going to work any longer. He just gave me every reason in the book not to trust him.” I was recently conned on the phone on subscribing to a bogus help line for my computer. The only way I caught them, right before I was going to get them to download a program for a price was, when I called back their number, the guy answering said, “Have you gotten your program downloaded yet?” But he said it too anxiously. One, he let me know you could download it somewhere else. Two, he had a guilty conscience, for some reason, believing I had realized the con, he knew it was a con, and I had already downloaded it at the original, legitimate , site. So, that’s what tipped me. He wasn’t a true con artist. He couldn’t relax. He then put me through to his “supervisor,” a female who was a better con artist that he was. I was concerned she would start asking for my credit card number, and I couldn’t think of a way to get out of it fast enough, since I had just learned 5 seconds before what was probably going on. Thank goodness she said, “Let me call you back,” which gave me time to look at my paperwork for the company that I originally had for that helpline, and they had talked me out of dropping it. Please. The name of the company they talked me out of was called Microsoft. Oh, please. I called the number for the helpline for Microsoft and they said, “Yeah, we’ll help you out.” I was glad to get back home. So those con artists can be rough. Oh, yeah, I was thinking, I was conned at a tire store one day, when a guy ask me to something like write him a check, and then he would cash his work check and pay me back. When I told him I would instead talk to the service desk about cashing his work check, he said, “No, no, no” and walked off. Later I thought, his whole demeanor changed. He went from nice guy who needed help, to a belligerent, nasty guy when I turned down his con. Before I could get back to the tire store to tell them they had a con artist in their building, the police were already there for a customer who had been successfully conned by this same guy. So, with your ex, his entire demeanor changed when you caught onto his con. He lasted 25 years in a marriage. What was it, the money? His children? How did his wife stay with him that long? He obviously would have slip ups, my guess is she was staying because of the children. It would have to be that, children first, abuse later, wife stays for the children and the money, game over. These people have to have a hook to keep the guy from leaving, like, children need a father in the home. You said, “I feel sorry for him, because with his thinking he will never have a lasting relationship with anyone. That is truly sad. I am sure this new woman he is dating now is a wonderful person, but she will get the same treatment that I got if she ever questions anything he does. Same story different woman. She looks like a librarian so she definitely looks the type that will let him push her around. He is dating her, and driving past my house several times a week, this poor woman doesn't have a clue. Truly sad.” You said she looks like a librarian and she definitely looks like the type that will let him push her around.” Very astute observation. My wife had me as the steady boyfriend, as she trolled around looking for outside activities. When we got married--at the weakest point in my life, thinking I couldn’t make it on my own, closed my eyes and took the one in 10 chance that it might work--same thing. I was in a bad situation by myself, and in a worse situation with my marriage. I was trying to find a place where I could function. With manic-depression, I was a like pin ball, being bounced around trying to find a place. It’s not always easy. In your case, he came up with too tough of a cookie. He reached too far. Too many scruples; too many brain cells. Too high of a standard. He needs to go back to the librarian. I think that’s what they call, survival of the fittest. You were too fit, you survived. Congratulations. So, you just crossed another hurdle. Oh, as for causes of narcissistic personality disorder: By Mayo Clinic Staff Narcissistic personality disorder is rare. During childhood and teen years, children may show traits of narcissism, but this may simply be typical of their age and doesn't mean they'll go on to develop narcissistic personality disorder. Narcissistic personality disorder affects more males than females, and it often begins in the teens or early adulthood. Although the cause of narcissistic personality disorder isn't known, some researchers think that in biologically vulnerable children, parenting styles that overemphasize the child's specialness and criticize fears and failures may be partially responsible. The child may hide low self-esteem by developing a superficial sense of perfection and behavior that shows a need for constant admiration. ------------------------ Since you knew him for 42 years, did you notice any traits of this when he was growing up? Did you notice anything about his parents? Did he have a mother and father in the home? If the father was absent, this might have contributed, his mother may have over praised him, or put him in too high of a position. My brother was over-praised by my mother, who was sex abused (borderline per. syn.)and didn't have a feel for what was going on. If he made A’s and B’s in school, he was way up there, and even had him skip first grade. He believed what she said. But he wasn’t that wonderful. Did you notice his mother praising him too much? As for “Complications of narcissistic personality disorder, if left untreated, can include: • Relationship difficulties • Problems at work or school • Depression • Drug or alcohol abuse • Suicidal thoughts or behavior" We already know the relationship difficulties, as for yours and his ex-wife’s. As the sergeant on "Hill Street Blues" TV show used to say to the policemen at the end of his daily briefings, "Hey,hey,hey! Be careful out there."

PLVJ9, yes his childhood wasn't the best his parents did nothing for those kids, on holidays they had steak the kids ate macaroni with ketchup, the gifts they gave them were either to big or to small of which the mother would take back and keep the money. The kids ended up with nothing year after year. That type of abuse, he quit school at a young age and left home, not to return until his divorce, from what I understand. He was into drugs for awhile, but when he got his promotion on his job he said he gave them up work was more important. The wife was a spendaholic from what I under stand she spent money like water, getting them into financial debt several times with nothing to show for it but huge amounts of credit card bills, which he said he had to get large loans to pay off several times. I think the money that he made was probably a factor in her staying in the marriage, he does make a good wage. I was friends with her at a young age, great person. I haven't been around her for many years as well. She has moved on since their divorce and is in a wonderful relationship, I ran into her at Xmas time and she and I talked, our ex was not mentioned in the conversation at all. We wished each other a merry xmas and went on our way. I honestly wondered to myself how she stayed with him for so many years, to deal with his personality had to be rough. I was in a bad marriage, there was no abuse but my husband was an addict, he his this problem very well, until it got to the point that he was spending a ton of money to take care of his habit. I offered to get him help to get him straightened out I was informed that he didn't have a problem. He was also cheating on the side. I took my child and left filed for divorce and never looked back. I made up my mind the drugs was a problem that unless he wanted help with would never get any better, the cheating I completely hated and that I would not tolerate. I put up with the gf calling while going through the divorce, having it rubbed in my face daily, and when the divorce was final I said never again, would I be subject to that garbage, that was 25 years ago. I haven't allowed anyone in my life to treat me that way ever since then. I am strong and independent, something most men don't like in a woman, I think my ex here is one of those he likes a needy woman that he can over power, I didn't need his money, I didn't need him to take care of me. I am make good money, am financially dependent on no one. When he and I went out, he would buy one night, the next I would pay. Everything was equal, he didn't like this but I told him I do not feel comfortable letting you pay for everything, its not my way. He seemed to get over that one without any problem. I let him know, I am not dating you for your money or what you can do for me. I enjoy spending my time with you and your company. All was good for several months, then the problems started the moving in, the ex gf trying to come back into the picture. The first break up I told him if he pulled the Houdini act again there would not be another chance. The ex came into the picture I offered to back out if he wanted to be with her, there was no need to cheat, I opened the door do he could make his choice, I simply told him at that time I don't play the ex game, if your going to be with me, then shes not going to be a part of this relationship. He assured me she wasn't. I took him at his word that he got the problem solved, and it seemed like he had. There were no more calls, texts, etc. Until the day he added her as a contact, I honestly felt betrayed, and felt as though he lied to me, my trust in him went out the window at the moment I saw it. I didn't come out and say hey your are a cheater, you cheated on your wife and now me. I never went that road. I said simply "I didn't like it", he asked why what was the problem, it was just a friend. I said I said I think this is just a way for her to get back into our business and I really don't see any good coming from it. He said you are wrong, its not that way at all, this will not harm our relationship. That is when I said then I trust what you say. Plain and simple then boom here it come. But he found out I was no push over and don't take me for granted, I was being polite about it, trying to let him have his voice, there was no accusations. Just a simple I don't like it. He chose to point the finger and start the name calling and how I violated his trust, all things that were completely uncalled for. Then here come the break-up, and the deleting of the profile, okay be a baby again, no communication like an adult. Run and hide first sign of DRAMA as he calls it. Every couple has drama at at some point but if you can't sit down like adults and talk out a problem that relationship has no future what so ever. With him that is the case because he can't sit down and talk about anything, he runs like a gutless coward. But then spends 6 months driving past my house checking up on me, several times a week. I think this behavior is completely whacked. Why can't he move on, is it the rejection, the fact that I didn't chase him, he can't stand the thought that I moved on just like his ex. All could be a factor who knows. BTW, I have gotten the phone changed and the number is unlisted that was completed this afternoon so no more calls on that line.

Soulmate, to answer your question, I wasn't ignoring it, yes I am SURE SURE SURE that I am done with him. I do not want this man in my life as a friend or anything else. This was his choice, now that the damage has been done, I have moved on. I asked what anyone thought of his behavior, why would he drive past my house for the past 6 months. Completely out of his way, is this a form of stalking, he makes no contact with me, but the fact he is going completely out of his way to come across town is deliberate. I simply asked what anyone thought of this input. I am now seeing a wonderful man, he and I get along great. So my answer to you is YES YES YES, I am completely SURE SURE SURE, that I do not want anymore to do with him. Would you want a woman that treated you that low and disrespectful in your life? Would you be jumping through hoops to get her back? If she drove past your house several time a week for 6 months would you think this was normal? My other respondent and brought some things to my attention, that I am glad they were. Little things a person doesn't notice or think about. Its kind of hard to answer a question without telling what happened. That is it plain and simple. No attraction to him what so ever. I wish him the best of luck with whomever he ends up with, but if he keeps the same attitude that he had with me, he will never have a successful relationship, unless he finds some needy, clingy woman that will bow down and kiss his ass, whenever he says jump. That is not for me.

Okay, you're sure you're done with him and just wanted badly to know exactly where the hell he's coming from. Was just checking (- you'd be surprised how many ladies (and men) 'doth protesteth too much' on forums, only to then five minutes later be ecstatically reporting a reunion with the same said 'monster' and rearing up if you dare point out their about-turn). In actual fact, your final sentance in your reply to PLVJ9 about having just blocked the last remaining contact line (actions!) was what hit me and did the trick to convince on that score. I have to say, reading through your elaborations since - yes, actually, they way you describe him, on paper he does sound quite narcissistic. Similarly to the above evidence in-motion, the fact he cheated on his long-term wife, as the latest findings are that Narcissists are particularly apt to cheat (put it this way: not all cheaters are Narcs but all Narcs are cheaters given the chance). However, a little-known fact is that men can, on the whole, naturally be slightly narcissistic, anyway, certainly in comparison to women, which goes particularly the type that start up and run their own companies. So you'd be right in regards to his inability to accept a 'no': increasingly having full reign over their own little world of sychophants is what tends to exacerbate their over-entitlement and need for constant admiration. So if an otherwise normal man does have a slightly higher narcissistic tendency than the average, then, even without falling within the DSM-V diagnostic normally, add the magnifying glass of post-traumatic/mid-life-crisis DefCon and - voila, he'll present convincingly as full-blown until such lengthy time as he returns to situation normal again and calm down (2-5 years). So I still assert that he could be either a bona fide narc or just still very much post-traumatically DefCon-ed. From your point of view, however, who cares when at this juncture it amounts to the same thing, right? (I say this in this case because, although these sorts of personality disorders tend not to be that detectable from any range laying outside that of an actual romantic pairing, you *would* have at least gained a good inkling of it during your, according to you, very close friendship when conducted over what sounds like an extensive period, and yet in spite of this and your newly enlightened position, you report that he wasn't like this whatsoever back then.) His constant drive-bys are a mild form of stalking, yes. So how to get rid of this extreme (and actually not rare *enough*) (1 in every 6, increasing steadily per decade) type. Answer: with an equally extreme response. Given that you can't just take a contract out on them (;-)), this means the opposite extreme, of ignore, ignore, ignore and never crack, not even 0.0001%. But now to you: I don't agree you were too fit, implying, impervious. Obviously you had the 'short-cut'/'leg-up' of he and you already having been closely acquainted years earlier, but this wouldn't have helped once you'd begun dating in earnest unless you were a giant Giver. Same goes for your relationship with your ex-husband. Narcs are huge Takers whom logically, if you think about it, need a counterpart i.e. a huge Fiver (whereas obviously it should be equally give and, not take but *receive* (diff/all the diff) from both sides). All you have to ensure to do in this new relationship (which you should be doing anyway), therefore, is right from the off be seen to be one who takes as equally as she gives, certainly when it comes to 'weight', overall. With that the easily-witnessable case, no self-respecting narc would stick around for longer than 'five minutes'. It's called Narcissistic Supply (go google) and is the atomic nucleus of their dysfunction. However (and this is where things get confusing and why one can't possibly diagnose over the web in any helpfully precise way), matey here seems to be reacting to Fear of Abandonment (aka Rejection) and as well could be said to have demonstrated Fear of Intimacy aka commitmentphobia when dragging in the ex (in order to water down your relationship by pushing you away a little, and, now, locking himself into merely *chasing after* a relationship rather than getting on with the business of doing one at all or wholeheartedly fully and properly). Both these traits, particularly to his daily extent of trying to needle you, are more characteristic of the Borderline PD, not the Narc. With the latter, if you completely cease to be a 'feeder' then you're the one to get cut out with zero further contact from them, due to the fact that, as an object, you're now defunct, which means superfluous to all requirements. You literally get discarded, and for seemingly very little. (Understand that anyone can get to the point in relationships where they unavoidably have to hold up their hands in defeat and cut a person unceremoniously out of their lives. But, whereas for normal people this tends to be a last resort, for the Narc it's the first. There's one of the diffs that make all the diff and is yet another reason for my suspecting he's just reactively, rather than permanently, disturbed and distorted. Hence why, despite you showed him you were no longer prepared to be complicit in his delusions (e.g. unwilling to agree with the tacit of his ex just gagging to become a true friend to His Royal Highness), or suddenly revealing how you never truly had - he's as we speak doing the polar opposite to cutting you out, by basically trying to demand your attention and provoke you into doing the contacting: "Vroom! (don't get over me, now, will you), vroom! (let's not let any new man feel comfy and want to stick around)...vroom! (are you frustrated enough to call me yet?)..." Whichever type and to what extent, however, consistent ignoring eventually *will* work. (As will double-glazing or a banana shoved up his exhaust pipe overnight, LOL.) Best of luck, then. I'll leave you and PLVJ9 to compare more notes, since you two seem to be kindred spirits in this regard. :-) PS: Oh yes, just one more question, purely out of interest: What does your new boyfriend think about his attention-seeking campaign (or is he unaware this is afoot)?

Soulmate thank you for the clarifications on the PD, I have to agree with this completely. He is definitely Narc, no way around that, 100 percent. He definitely has it down because he is very smooth to the point that he makes it seem like you are the most important part of his life. When in all actuality, you are nothing more then a pawn to boost his ego, something to conquer, and when he can't do that, he tosses you aside like your nothing but dirt. I tried every way to make this work, up to the point I would not give in to what I was not comfortable with, he knew I was like that when we were young I haven't changed at all through the years, just a milder form in my old age. I won't give up my individuality for anyone I am who I am, they can take me or leave me. I won't lose sleep either way. I was growing very fond of him during the six months we were together, I was truly happy, I won't deny that at all. When I was married, when I left my husband he treated me like I was nothing more then trash, I was completely devastated, that he would choose the drugs over my child and I, I later understood that was because I was the one that was trying to take what he needed away from him he didn't hate me the love for me was still there, he was sick and he need the drugs. It was a fight that I, or anyone else couldn't have won, unless the addict wants to be helped, you are fighting a losing battle. I found out also, he was cheating, I never accused him of this, but when I suspected it, I kept it to myself and I caught him. The next day I filed a divorce. I vowed at that time to never be treated like I was dirt from anyone and I haven't since that day. My current ex was no exception to this rule. He tossed me aside not once but 2x, that was enough to show to me where I stood in this so called relationship. It was time for me to move on down the road, and I have and not looked back with any regret. You are right, hes doing what he is doing to get my attention, every time he gets to my house he will slow down and rev the pipes as to say hey, I'm here do you hear me. You were right, this is to bring it back to remind me, hey see what your missing out on. I don't feel I'm missing out on anything. We had some very good times together, I would rather leave it as is, and move on. To answer your question about the new fella in my life at this time, he is in fact the one that we tried to go out for months but couldn't get even a day to do anything, our schedules were completely opposite of each other. Now we are at a point where we both have free time and that time we have been spending do things together, its not serious, we are just having a great time together. We have a lot in common. I haven't told him the ex is driving by. Do you think this is wrong or should I let him know this is going on. I don't want to give the ex and part of thinking he is winning at anything. I hoped if I ignore it long enough he will eventually move on and stop completely. I came to this forum to ask for opinions because my friends all give me different answers. None of which are going through this or who have gone through this. I thought by submitting this in here, that people who have experienced this situation could give me insight to what is going on and possibly what to expect. I have to say i have had 3 people respond to my question, and all 3 of you have opened my eyes to many things that I really wasn't aware of but when you see it in black and white and you type the things that happen back as a response your able to take that and pick it apart and see the patterns you and PJLV9 have pointed out to me, you both have really made me think. After all the thinking back it really makes you feel like you were blind. When in reality no I wasn't he was just very smooth with what he was doing. I am the kind that I pay attention to everything even when you think I am not. I used to drive my mother crazy because she would say would you listen to me and quit watching tv, I said i heard everything you said, and she said fine repeat it and I would word for word. This with him I never had a clue the time we were together what he was doing, really blows me away as I sit and think about the things he did and I wasn't even aware of it. He is good that is a fact, hes got it down to a fine art. Everything he did was a ego boost for him by the reaction he got from me, really makes you wonder how much of the things he said and did were true or if it was to just see if he could actually win over the strong willed independent woman. To break me would have been a major boost to his ego, but he couldn't and that pissed him off royally. Therefore, my punishment was your are not worthy of someone like me, you violated my trust, and now we are threw. My attitude, back was fine, that works for me, which probably pissed him off even more, because again I rejected him, there was no chase, no begging, no crying, no blowing up his phone, just plain fine it works for me and went on my merry way. I am sure that really bruised his ego, as in how could she dare not want me. In all honesty I'm sure that weighs on a Narcs mind terribly, when they find someone they can't break, does that make them want to pursue it more, or will they just eventually go on and find another unsuspecting person to play their game on? I guess time will tell. Thank you all for your input, I appreciate you taking the time to help me see this and what was going on right under my nose and I wasn't even aware of it.

PJLV9 please read the above reply I made to SOULMATE, there is some reference in it to you as well.

That’s pretty cold. Your description of his childhood. It’s int. that you knew this guy growing up, and knew how he had been raised. It sounds like he had a very rough childhood. I had no idea. It’s interesting that you knew his childhood from having known him through those years. It’s also int. that you knew him as a child, then dated him as an adult. So you know how he turned out, and you also know why he turned out that way. You said, “yes his childhood wasn't the best his parents did nothing for those kids, on holidays they had steak the kids ate macaroni with ketchup, the gifts they gave them were either to big or to small of which the mother would take back and keep the money. The kids ended up with nothing year after year.” And noted, that he “quit school at a young age and left home, not to return until his divorce, from what I understand.” And that he “was into drugs for awhile, but when he got his promotion on his job he said he gave them up work was more important.” As to why they stayed together, “I think the money that he made was probably a factor in her staying in the marriage, he does make a good wage.” That was one of the guesses. As for his wife, you said, “I was friends with her at a young age, great person.” You said you “honestly wondered to myself how she stayed with him for so many years, to deal with his personality had to be rough.” It could have been the money and the children, and she didn’t want to say that. My older brother was awful to live with, I know because I grew up in the same room with him. Two different people. Living room with guests, and in private, he would verbally tear you apart. I now realize, in private, he never carried on a conversation. If I was by myself in the room, like in the kitchen, he would come into the room and just stand there beside me. Watching, was I was doing. Harrassing me through silence. Kind of stalking me in my own house. Waiting for me to make a mistake, real or imagined. And then he would pounce: “Why did you do that like that!!!!” If you raised your voice to defend yourself, he could flatten you, and no run crying to mother or dad, for dad had an anger per. disorder, also, and was attacking me through my brother, while mother couldn’t stand up to my brother, either, since she was the one who sex abused him and started all that angry behavior. I realize now, he never carried on a conversation. In private where I was. Someone else come in the room, that side would melt, and he would brighten, and maybe even say a few nice things. He was like two people. I now think he had anger personality disorder. I think he could have been borderline pers. syndrome. I know he was most probably sex abused by my mother. My sister was, too. I got a touch of that. That’s why I was asking you before, did your ex. boyfriend talk much, because you said he could not talk over problems? My brother did not, my sister, almost none at all, my mother did not (sex abused), and my father didn’t talk much, but he could. So, my brother would stalk me in our own kitchen. He would just stand beside me. Obviously watching everything you did. That’s like your ex. There’s no crime for riding down the street. There’s no crime for dialing a phone number. They pick things very carefully. In both cases, filled with anger. So how did my brother’s marriage turn out with his wife? Just like I think your ex boyfriend’s marriage did: she stayed for the kids, which is probably when the heavy abuse started, for she might not agree to have kids if he wasn’t’ nice to her. That’s why at Xmas she didn’t talk a whole lot about what it was like to live with him for 25 years. I think one of things that infuriates your boyfriend was that he was roughed up in childhood and you were not. And that you two grew up near each other, and you had it better. I think that’s a strong factor, that maybe the next girl who rejects him won’t get that bad of treatment although he will come after her. I’m almost sure my wife held that against me, as did my brother and sister, who were both sex abused, and they had things rougher than I did. I had a boss one time who had anger, and he was angry that I did not, and came after me many times. You said you had a rough marriage, drugs, cheating, and that “I haven't allowed anyone in my life to treat me that way ever since then. I am strong and independent, something most men don't like in a woman.” How is that ex-husband doing today? Did he marry the woman he cheated with? If so, how is that marriage going? Is he still into drugs? I think you’re right. Once a man starts overpowering a woman with money, he next may think he’s paid for the right to have an affair. So that if a woman starts accepting money from a man, she may be submitting to more than just his funds, she may be submitting overall to him, and taking the weaker position. If you didn’t have financial independence from your husband, you might still be in that situation watching him cheat and his taking drugs. So you’re scoring high with both of these people and can be proud of that. I was manic depressive and couldn’t hold jobs and yeah, yeah, yeah, I paid for it. But, too, I was staying in the marriage for my son, and because we were both buying a house together. If we divide the house, I’m standing there with my half of the money, which I shall soon spend, and the house and the money will be gone, and our son cannot inherit the house. So I leave a low mortgage house for an expensive apartment, where is that about? So I was stuck. She poured in on. Now this is what happened. She smoked. At 59 she got an ailment, and passed away at 62, and I was 65. Well, I got the paid for house, and one day my son will have it. If I don’t stay, that doesn’t happen. We had a small life insurance policy on each other. She had a retirement program at work, that I got the benefit of. In some ways, by staying, staying in my own (½) house, which I had a right to do, and staying with our son, and letting our child have a father in the home, and two paychecks under one roof when I was working. So, when looked at like that, maybe I wasn’t so stupid after all. I was stupid, but I still did OK. Her reasoning was, she herself got caught cheating, you (the husband) are gonna pay for it. With her pathology she did make me pay for it. I earned every dollar that I got out of that, as much heck as she gave me for 16 years (36 if you’re counting the whole marriage), both in front of me and behind my back. Yes, those were well-earned dollars. It was very ironic that this, mentally and physically, strong as a horse person died before I did. It was like seeing a dump truck come at you 70 miles an hour, and at the last second it veers off. It would be like what it would have been like to live with your boyfriend had you gotten married and had a child, when the child was 3, you find out he has been cheating on you. Well, you know, like your first marriage. But I mean with the 2nd guy. And you want to stay for the child, we’ll say. And you don’t want to leave, but you don’t want to stay, either, and he starts this pathological stuff. Really bad. That’s what my marriage was like. I’m glad you got your phone number changed. I just got my first harassing call of the new year from a guy whose been after me for about 2 years. And so it’s time to take my own advice and have my landline phone number changed. One of my enemies came after me really bad earlier in the day, and I didn’t know if I was going to be able to write this or not. I’m glad I was. It’s even rougher because with a little more effort and thought, I think I could have avoided it. I had the idea in my mind on how to improve my situation, my safety, but I couldn’t bring the thought into fruition, and I am paying the price. I‘ve learned that all I can do is blame myself, and try to learn from my mistakes. The fact that I am still functioning, I try to take comfort in. I tell myself, “Yeah, but you still have some of yourself left,” in grabbling with this situation. I started this letter last night on my laptop, which I hate. It’s a regular size laptop, new, never had one before. The letters are too close together. It took me about an hour to write about 5 sentences. I got it because I have to go into a bunker because of my enemies. One thing, it slips into teeny, tiny letters if I hit the wrong button. The whole page is the size of a postage stamp, and I can’t find the button to get it back, and if it comes back, it’s scrunched up to the left side of the page. And I’ve still written only 5 sentences in an hour. Then I’m hitting buttons trying to get it back to regular-size page, then the whole thing disappears. All my hours work is gone, but then it’s only five sentences. Then I’m bangine on all the keys trying to destroy it, like your ex boyfriend might behave. Finally it screws up and has 3 screens all in one, and it won’t do anything, so I have to cut it off, only it doesn’t cut off. You can hit the off button, but it comes back on when your hand goes too close to the keys. Now I can’t get it to shut down. I’m pounding, screaming and my dog…my Beagle dog…at the other end of the bunker, gets up…even my Beagle dog knows that I’ve lost it, am having a relapse, and comes over to where I am, and I realize it’s worse than I thought. I close the laptop, pat my dog on the head for being concerned about me and bringing me out of my tirade, and put the laptop away. Does anyone else have trouble with laptops? This is horrible.

I am vacating the premises to go to an angel neighbors up the street. Don't know if my wi-fi works up there or not. Will get back as soon as I can: same Bat time, same Bat channel.

PJVL9, Seems your having a rough go at it today. To answer your question I knew him from a young age, our families were friends, we spent much time at each others houses. His parents were not good parents, now it seems from what I learned dating him, is that basically out of all their kids, he is the only one that has anything to do with them. The others moved on and never looked back they don't come around at all. I can understand why. For me that is hard my parents gave us everything they could, we had a great home life with two loving and caring parents. I can't imagine not wanting to do for you children. I understood why he left home and never went back. Until basically he had no where else to go I would assume. We were the best of friends we did everything together, however, we never dated that was not a part of the friendship, from what I understood from his mom. He liked me very much back then, but wouldn't tell me for fear it might ruin the friendship we had. She said she told him why don't you ask her out, he said if it don't work then what, she said then you still have a great friend. However, it never came to that until 40 years later. But the story played out, boy meets girl, boy likes girl, moves on, both get married, have families, divorce, boy meets girl again after many years, they go out, start dating, become very close again, break up, friendship ends. The conversations we had were endless, he never shut up, he talked about anything and everything all the time. That wasn't an issue. He did however, have a roaming eye, thinking back I realized this, we went to a concert, he spent the whole time we were there checking out every woman in a pair of shorts. A few he almost broke his neck to get another look. I found this a bit insulting to do this right in front of me, it was bold. I never said anything about it to him, we had a great time there, why ruin it. But my thoughts then were if he was being this bold in front of me, what is he doing when hes not a around me. Then came the incident with the ex gf, adding of her as a contact, this was 5 days later. As you know the story we broke up that was the end of the relationship. And you know since then there has been no contact from that point. He was very normal to be around, still the same mild mannered person I knew many years ago, just we both were much older. I did notice the boasting of how much money he made, what he had, he like prestige being able to show he had power, I guess this made him feel big and successful. Yes he has done very well for himself through the years to come from not having anything. The one thing I noticed is that he was just like his father, he liked to brag, about what he had. We all went to dinner one evening, his dad spent the whole meal talking about how much money he has, etc. I saw the same behavior in him as well. They are just alike, the only difference is he gives to his kids non stop, anything they need he gets for them, the opposite of what he was given as a young kid. His kids are grown married and have kids of their own, but if they need anything they call him, I admired that in him that he was there to help them whenever they needed him. His wife, I think spending was a way to escape her unhappiness, he said she spent non stop, she bought things she didn't need to just spend. Maybe, that was a way for her to get back at him, for his BS attitude. Why leave, I can buy what I want, I have a new home, new car, everything I need. I am not happy but hey he makes a good living. Who knows the logic there, just a wild guess. She seems very happy in her new life, it seems to agree with her very well. I wish happiness for all of them, including him, but I doubt he will ever find it with anyone.

Shannon, I was in about as bad a shape as you can get. I had someone who lived not too far away coming after me. I called the police, and he said, there’s not much we can do. You should have called us right after this happened, and we could have knocked on his door, and given him a warning. If he did it again, we could take him to city court, and he judge could fine him. So he was telling me, not a whole lot can be done about this, at this later point. And basically, he was saying, not a whole lot can be done about his anyway. I listened. It was getting worse with this harasser, and there’s nothing that can be done. I had some neighbords up the street who said they could help me if I needed that. I called them about 9 last night. I was about to start cooking supper, but basically was almost shaking so much, I couldn ‘t concentrate on that, out of concern he was going to do something else. I realized, I can’t stay in my house anymore. I then realized, yeah, and it’s Friday and many businesses are closed that might could have helped me. I then felt trapped. I then rem. my friends nearby who said they would help me, and have in the past. I debated about 10 minutes, and gave them a call, telling them, have the place ready for me in case I dec. to come up there later, right now I’m in between. She said they would. I threw my food and other stuff in a bag or two, and went up there. Cooked a supper up there, watched TV and went to bed, my Beagle slept in a nearby chair. Woke up, and it was near morning. I had made it through the night. My dog and I then came back home. That was a close call for me. I absolutely didn’t want to stay here, but where to go for the rest of your life, type of feeling? Those people did help me. Might not have to go through this too much longer. Whew!!! The apartment up there does not have wi-fi, so I can’t type anything up there. I have to wait until I get back here during the day. So, you spent time at each others houses when you were kids. Interesting. How do you be friends as a family with someone who is abusing their children? What were the parents like? What made them monsters? Were they abused? Did your ex-boyfriend ever say anything about their past? Other than the Christmas, not giving them anything, how else were they abusive to the kids? What were the other brother or sister saying about the parents, that they hated them so much they never came back? At what age did your ex leave? How much education? Where did he go? Did anything happen to him while he was out there? Did he talk about that time much? If he has so much money, why after his failed marriage, did only then did he go back to his parents, the people he despises? Seems like with all of his money, he could get his own place, rather than degrading himself by going back to these despicable parents. You said, “He did however, have a roaming eye, thinking back I realized this, we went to a concert, he spent the whole time we were there checking out every woman in a pair of shorts. A few he almost broke his neck to get another look. I found this a bit insulting to do this right in front of me, it was bold.” So you did see signs of that in that early relationship. You said, as kids, “We were the best of friends we did everything together….” That is killer. Best friends as kids, best friends as teens? Going to concerts together. This getting together as adults after bad marriages, this was going to be like a dream come true, right? Are we going to call it rebound, or what? How far after your failed marriage did this happen? How far after hers? Let me guess, you were way in love with him. Second, you were way into the sex. Excuse me. I’m just now getting into how much you liked this guy. I’ve been dealing with how bad he must have been up to now. He was number 1 when you were a youngster, and he was number 1 when you re-met him 40 years later. Right? That “best friends” as kids wasn’t going to skip a beat. OK, I caught the part where, when I asked, did he talk, and in the latest post you said, “The conversations we had were endless, he never shut up, he talked about anything and everything all the time. That wasn't an issue. He did however, have a roaming eye…..” So you two were emotionally deep, with the “The conversations we had were endless….” So you two were perfect together, he talked a lot, you talked a lot. So, in and out of bed, everything was perfect, plus he made a lot of money, Oh, my. How hurt were you? Or did you immediately see what was going on, and you stopped the emotons? As soon as I found out my wife was cheating, I didn’t have a lot of emotions for her, except for her to explain whenever we were in the living room without anyone else there, “What do you mean…?” type of talk. We never had another conversation other than that. I was just int. in raising the kid with 2 parents and she was just int. in cont. the affairs, it turned out, and then when that stopped with our then 13 year old realized why she was coming in late from work all the time, before I got in from work, she was forced to stop that. Then her pathological hate underside came to the surface. She died with the path. hate for me being worse than any anger I had at her for cheating. She slipped into unconsciousness “winning” by hating me worse, that 5 emotional year old still determined, never to let that happen again. She would fight back next time. She kept that vow to herself. You said, “He was very normal to be around, still the same mild mannered person I knew many years ago, just we both were much older.” That’s very int. This guy who would later ride in front of your house, “was very normal.” Was he normal? Was he hiding serious flaws? Do you think you failed to see, or that he didn’t have anything wrong, too much? Oh, his wife spending. My mother, who was sex abused, spent. She never spent any of her own money, cause she never worked. Since she was attacked by a male, her father, as a child, she became a lesbian, to get away from men, but married a male because he made more money than females, back then. Our mother once asked us, “Would you kids like to have a boat?” We didn’t, we told her, we know some people who own boats, we’ll just ride in their’s. Their too much trouble to get fixed.” She was just trrying to spend our dad’s money. It was awful. We had to have piano lessons, so she could get dad to buy us a piano. We all hated piano. It didn’t matter. My dad wasn’t comfortabhle with females, so marrying a lesbian was just right for him, plus she was an emotional 5 year old, which was when the abuse occurred. So he could be a father figure to her, he could feel comfortable around her because she was just a kid. I married my wife for the exact same reasons. She was sexually abused at 5, and was an emotional 5 year old, which was when the abuse occurred. Like my dad, I was not comfortable around females. I was not swave, I was not this, I was not that. So, I was kinda stuck like my dad. Again, a sex abused female came to my rescue. I went from awkward dates to being “the man” around this emotional 5 year old. For instance, she never talked, often a sign of sex abuse, she had no personality, another sign of that, so she couldn’t outshine me. But she could fuck. Isn’t this the part of the movie where you came in? Oh, also, I had a touch of sex abuse. My mother intentionally disrobed in front of me when was I was 8. She was sex abused and she carried it on. I now know for a fact that she sex abused my older sister and my older brother. My sister never speaks, yes or no if you ask her a question. My brother is filled with path. anger and never holds a civil conversation unless company is around and he’s faking it. In private with me, and probably with his wife before she left him 20 years ago, he verbally attacks with a viciousness that you don’t believe is possible. He has no personality either, from sex abuse, just anger in private with close family members, because they can’t leave, and fake personality in public. So that’s my wife. As I mentioned earlier, she had over 2,000 outside sex experiences in 16 years of our marriage. Since she was a school teacher and got off work at 3, and I didn’t get off until 5 or 6, she could have affairs, and be home before I got home. And off 3 months in the summer, better situation than that. You know, you got your 3, 4 hour motel visits, with or without a 2nd male or female stripper added to the mix. And you didn’t have to go to Las Vegas to get this. You could go to a local motel and be home by 5 or 6 before hubby of their wives got home, and you had Las Vegas in your hometown. Since I was sex abused also, we were perfect. She could provide me with the best, and the rest of the town with the same thing. But again, we did have a tie, the sex abuse, as did my dad with my mother. I briefly had a one minute liason, OK 10 seconds, with a female con artist, and I could not see through her. The more she complimented me the more I believed it. When she hit me for a loan, right, right after “contact,” I was so much “in love” I didn’t hesitate. Then she stated talking 38. caliber pistol, and even I could start to figure her out. “Oh, no, just keep the money, sweetheart.” That’s why I ment. to you in an earlier post the deep emotions that sex can bring. When she invited only a touch, I was gone. The next day, I started removing my deceased wife’s clothes from her closet to donate, something I hadn’t been able to do in the 5 years since her death. I was now emotionally removed from my wife, and emotionally attached to this con artist, who knew a pigeon when she saw one.

The abuse his family did to the kids was neglect and they gave them nothing, food, clothes,it wasn't physical abuse but very neglectful, one type is as bad as any other form of abuse. They acted as if the kids owed them everything and it wasn't their place to provide them with anything. This infuriated my parents, they couldn't stand how they treated them. That basically ended the friendship my parents just couldn't stand to set and watch them eat steak and give the kids a box of mac n cheese. In our house if mom and dad had steak we had steak. Christmas at our house was over the top, my parents always saw to we had everything we needed and what we wanted, they weren't rich, but worked hard to give us a nice home. I have to say I grew up with two of the best parents one could ask for. He moved out I think he was 16, dropped out of school. He went to stay at his girlfriends house, her parents let him come and live with them, which later they married. When we were young we never dated we both dated other people the subject never came up between us, we were just very good friends. As with any other people, he moved away, we lost contact through the years, we would run into each other once in awhile, exchanged hellos, and went on our ways. He said he got into drugs at an early age, right after he moved from home. I never knew this about him, I was the opposite I never did any form of drugs. My marriage ended many years ago, and I have never remarried, not because the thought repulses me. I just never found anyone that I felt that I wanted to marry, close a couple times, but it ended before it got to that point. I put my efforts into raising my kids, now they are grown and gone, on their own, so now its my time to do what I want. I am very proud of my kids and all of their accomplishments. He had been divorced just a little over a year when we started dating. What I found him to be at first was the same person he was 30 years ago, he was nice, respectful, we got along great. We still had a lot in common with each other. He even commented that the friendship just seemed to pick up where it left off. He said I guess that shows we had a true friendship. I wasn't thinking of changing the monogram on my towels yet but it was nice dating him. He started opening up about his life, marriage, etc. That is how I found out he had stayed with his parents, but he said it was for only a month and then he had his own place, basically long enough to find his own place. I haven't been around his family for many years, I saw them out on occasion would say hello, and be on my way. Crazy, but his mother always treated me great. This the same woman that gave nothing to her own kids, always seemed, crazy to me. He never brought up how things were when he was growing up. I never brought it up to him or pried into his personal business, I figured if he wanted to talk, he would bring it up to me. He didn't have to because I knew what type of life they had. The only thing I asked him about was his siblings and what happened to them, that is when he told me that none of them had anything to do with his parents, I said nothing at all, he said no they don't come around them or help them at all. He said I didn't come around my dad for years, he said I would call my mom and talk to her, but never went to visit. He said if I saw them out I wouldn't go out of my way to talk to him. He said he screwed a lot of people over for years. I said I never knew anything about that. The subject changed and wasn't brought up again. I am not one to pry into other peoples business, if they bring it up to me unless they ask my opinion, I just listen to what they have to say. Give a comment, and let it go. It wasn't oh yes I know what kind of assholes your parents were to you. I just said I never knew that and let it go. He never brought it up again, I never asked. Now they are older not in good health and have no one to help them, hes the only one that does. Now he is the greatest person in the world to them, amazing how the attitude changes when the tables turn and they have no one else to help them. If he finds it in his heart to forgive them, that is between them. The wife had the same childhood experience I had, her family did everything for them. I would assume the way he grew up has a major factor on the way he is. Like I said, I have no hate for him, but the things he did and said to me, showed me that this was no relationship for me to be in. I wish him the best of luck, I hope he finds happiness again at some point. That won't be with me. I see you have had your share of abuse in your life, terrible thing, that anyone has to be subject to.

The concert incident took place 4 days before the breakup. There was a big gap in time.

You mentioned the neglect that your ex boyfriend went through, and that his parents “acted as if the kids owed them everything and it wasn't their place to provide them with anything.” My mother resented any of her traits that we might have inherited from her, you could tell that. Wonder why his parents were so abusive? His living with her parents at 16 could have caused their family problems. I don’t know how they were able to do that. I asked if leaving home as a teen (16) changed him, and you said he got into drugs at that age, so I was wondering if that, his leaving home at 16, had an affect. I knew a college age kid who cut my grass, who as a teen, I’ll say 16 or 17, left home for some reason(my guess is he was doing drugs and his parent or parents kicked him out) and lived on the streets of some big town, and, as you can imagine, he got into some hellacious situations, which had a detrimental affect on him, which is why I asked you about this, your ex-boyfriend, if he was affected by leaving. You said you never did drugs, that’s good. I have his housekeeper/driver type person who comes by to help me a couple of times a week. She has couple of tattoos, so I tried to brace myself for anything. A few times she had come over and it was like she was on something. She’d be kinda of whozy and I’d tell myself, “Don’t give her anything difficult to do on those days, she doesn’t feel like it. She just wants to take it easy on those days.” What it was, she was taking drugs, while she was working, like a tranqualizer, and I’m wondering if she’s taking it on the way over here, just before she gets here. I’m thinking, that’s pretty wild. Taking a tranqualizer, 5 minutes before you’re to be at work. Why not wait a few hours, and take it when you get home after work? I guess you have to be pretty hooked on that drug to the point you can’t wait until you get home. One day she walked in, and bumped into the doorsill going into the dining room. I said, “Are you alright?” and snapped, “Yeah!” I felt like she didn’t want me to be the one taking care of her, and the drugs made her short tempered. One day I asked her to walk back in the grocery because I left off an item. She did, but about 30 minutes later we talked about a flu shot for next year, and she snapped, “Yeah, if you’re alive this time next year.” So, she was a nice person, but it was the drugs that made her snap. One Monday she said, “I had a gooood weekend. I just laid around the house and took catnaps!!!” So she was outwardly bragging about her lifestyle, to one of her employers. Whoa. One day she said her boyfriend died a year or two earlier of a drug overdose, that he died of a heart attack from doing home-cooked meth (home-cooked being, I've since seen on TV, they make it in their kitchen for themselves, not for sale, although there may be some of that). I felt like I was talking to a ghost when she was telling me these deep dark secrets, and this was a person who had been working for me for several months. I was dumbfounded. I mean, I knew the tattoos suggested that lifestyle, I figured stripper, prostitute, drugs. And those kind of people are not unusual to those kind of home-type jobs. I told my son, these people are either drug addicts or prostitutes, and he said, yeah, at minimum wage, what do you expect? One day my son was over here, and she almost jumped on him, right in front of me. Every now and then she’ll want him to come over again. One day she almost pulled right out in front of a car, in front of two cars, and I’m in the back seat saying, “Wait…wait!!!” And she hit the breaks. The net said, you don’t want these people driving your car, and I was thinking of getting someone else. She started doing better after that. I started giving her tips for doing better, for she was a very good worker, and a very good person. Oh, and it was the same day she told me about her boyfriend dying from meth, that she told me, “I lost my kids to a state agency because I was doing drugs.” Again, my mouth is dropping open. I don’t know what to say. I said, “Why are you telling me this?” She said, “Because I can trust you.” But when she wasn’t coming over on drugs, I started giving her some tips. And she also looked at me one time and said, “One problem at time, and be positive about that problem?” And I said yeah. I think that’s when she was trying to get off drugs. Anyway, she told me last Christmas, not this one, her daughter had her children taken away from her, following in the footsteps of her mother. This Christmas I asked her why, and she said because they were cooking meth in their house. About 3 months ago, she told me her daughter had gotten a job. Oh, off drugs. I started giving her daughter a tip. Also, at Christmas, my helper got one of her sons, who has some difficulties, where he is allowed to live in her home and she can take care of him. I figured some state agency was giving her drug tests which showed she was clean and she was able to get him back with her, and she was really excited about that. If her daughter has been working for 3 months and is off drugs, maybe she can get her young children back in a few months. Yeah, so drugs can be rough. You said, while your boyfriend’s parents were abusive, “In our house if mom and dad had steak we had steak. "Christmas at our house was over the top, my parents always saw to we had everything we needed and what we wanted, they weren't rich, but worked hard to give us a nice home.” “I have to say I grew up with two of the best parents one could ask for.” You also said, “I am very proud of my kids and all of their accomplishments.” So, it’s a tale of two houses. That is, comparing your house with your ex-boyfriend’s. Also, comparing yours with my housekeeper’s. With my housekeeper, she was a drug addict who lost her children, including her daughter, who grew up to be a drug addict, who lost her children. There but for the grace of God…. I spent my second night up at the further away neighbor’s house last night, to get away from these people who are giving me a difficult time. When I think about all the heck these people are giving me, I have to remind myself sometimes and say, “Thank you God, for my many blessings.” If it weren’t for my wonderful other neighbors, I would be in really bad shape. As they say, one person can make a difference. I walk up there at night under the cover of darkness, and walk back in the morning. I’m hoping they'll move. Another thing that is helping me tremendously is that another neighbor's dog, for a year or so, had been barking every time I walked out of my house, alerting some bad neighbors where I was. I was over there talking to them 5 or 6 days ago, and the dog in the side yard would have heard the friendly conversation on the front porch of the house. He barked a little when I walked over there, but when I walked back 15 minutes later, he didn't bark. He now knew who I was, and that he didn't have to bark at me. Now I can leave and enter my house, without the dog alerting everyone as to where I am. Big difference. Very important.

PVJL9 I think I would be contacting the service that supplies my housekeeper and have then send me someone new. I don't think I would be to comfortable having this woman in my house. The things she is doing is completely overstepping the rules of these agencies. They are there to supply you a service, it doesn't seem that she is very professional. You mentioned she has tattoos. I am sorry I know a lot of people with tattoos that doesn't make them bad people, or hookers or prostitutes. Some people get tats for many reasons some are to honor loved ones etc. The fact that this woman is coming to your home, driving you around and is under the influence of drugs, this is not good. Why do you allow this to go on? I don't know how old you are but I am going to assume that you are over retirement age, you have a wild life for a senior citizen. How do you get into so much trouble? Why are people wanting to end your life? You might be better off to get rid of your home, and go into a home for seniors with assisted living. It sounds like you should worry about your safety, and not so much about keeping your house. Why doesn't your son step in and do something, besides showing up once in a while to bop the housekeeper. It sounds like you have had a full life surrounded with abusers of every type, my heart goes out to you. I was very fortunate growing up, I came from a home with two loving parents that would have done anything for us kids. My ex never experienced that type of abuse. From what I understand that when he father was young, his father ate supper and then when he was done, then the mother and other siblings were allowed to eat. Which may shed light on why they raised him and his siblings the way they did, who knows honestly. I do not fear my ex in any way. I just found his behavior after almost 7 months of not speaking to me, crazy, because he drives past my house several times a week. I am sure by now he has seen a new truck setting in my drive way. Maybe that is why the frequency has picked, up I still haven't told my new guy about his coming by I really don't see any need to stir up any problems with him. The landline phone has a new number now, so those calls have stopped. Now hopefully he will get bored and move on.

Sorry for the delay. You've obviously got good instincts and your head screwed on right because you're quite right about not telling newbie at this still-early stage of your relationship if there's no actual, dire need yet. Telling him would be cruel, could send him into high DefCon, apt to feel he needs to increase his armour and liable, possibly, to start acting-out all over you/the relationship. It's insecurity-making *enough* just to be in a relationship that you enjoy greatly and have high hopes for. Plus, you don't actually know for a *fact* that it's the ex when, who knows how many other people in your area own that same make and model of motorbike. Right?

I know it is the ex, I have actually seen him go by. No one rides their bikes in this neighborhood in the winter, until spring and they are not the same type of bike. How many times he goes by I don't have a clue, I have no idea what type a vehicle he is driving now, only the motorcycle. Yes I agree with you there is no point to bring it up to my new interest. That old expression if it ain't broke don't fix it. Why disrupt the relationship, and cause him to be uncomfortable when there is no reason to at this point, and may never be a reason to. Like I said I am sure by now he sees the truck in driveway. Hopefully, he will go on his way and leave things as they are. Thanks for your reply.

Shannon: In a manner of speaking, you’re right on all counts. 1. You said, “I think I would be contacting the service that supplies my housekeeper and have then send me someone new. I don't think I would be to comfortable having this woman in my house.” My helper did scare the bejesus out of me there for awhile. 2. You asked, “How do you get into so much trouble?” When you’re manic-depressive, it just comes with the territory. 3. You said, “You might be better off to get rid of your home, and go into a home for seniors with assisted living.” If I did, the senior citizen home would be under attack. 4. You said, “Why doesn't your son step in and do something, besides showing up once in a while to bop the housekeeper.” Because his main interest in life is to bop my housekeeper. I’d like to bop her myself if I could. The only reason I can be jovial right now is this. Today, I called the person who put my security cameras up about 3 weeks ago. I’ve had trouble with one set of set of neighbors for years. One morning about 5 days ago at about 5 a.m., I had a disturbance not far from my house. I thought it was my neighbor who had given me a hard time for many years. Later that afternoon, I called the police. He said if I had called right after it happened, he could knocked on his door, given him a warning, and if it happened again, he would go before a judge for a possible fine. Well, after that disturbance at 5 a.m., I called a neighbor and told them about it and for the last 4 nights, me and my dog have been spending nights up at their small apartment. I called the security camera person today and told him about it, and I wanted the disturbance to be saved on video and audio ta pe in case I needed some proof. He came by, and I told him the day and time it occurred, and he said he would view the tape. I told him I would step out of the room, to get away from the audio of that disturbance. He said OK. He came into the room where I was a few minutes later and said, “The disturbance you talked about that happened at 5 o’clock in the morning was rain and thunder.” For four nights, my dog and I have been on the run trying to get away from the monster who caused a disturbance at 5 o’clock in the morning, terrified that he would return. We would leave the house under the cover of darkness, less we be seen, spend the night in a goshawful apartment, eating various kinds of canned meat, and sleeping beside a window unit air conditioner that let in huge amounts of freezing cold air right beside my face. I had called in a carpenter to board the place up, and was chastising my helper, whom you hate, for not taking me to see various apartments which were going to charge outrageous prices for me to live there many months until my neighbors moved. She refused to take me to see these apartments, and I called her supervisor today who said she would order her to do that. My security camera person took me back to see the monitor. He cut on the video for 5 o’clock in the morning, the time of the disturbance, and the camera showed rain falling off the roof of the house, and the microphone picked up thunder. I told him, I thought the disturbance sound lower volume and lower pitch, and I was wondering about that, but I was still wondering what the disturbance was. I just today told the supervisor at my home health care agency, “After that disturbance at 5 o’clock in the morning 5 days ago, my psychic won’t let me go to sleep in this house! I’m telling you, I need for my helper to take me to see some apartments. All hell could break loose right now!!” I told her that. Me, eligible for a nursing home? How ridiculous can you get? I bought me a laptop with wi-fi, no wires, so I could hide away in my house, or at some far away location, and type these kind of epistles, and not be effected by any disturbance. I’m not telling you the whole story. I have been catching hell. I do have health problems, which some people have been giving me some trouble about. There is disturbed person in the neighborhood who has been giving me a difficult time. As a manic-depressive, I’m realizing I do have anger, which the lithium helps to lower, thank goodness. But other people in this neighborhood have illnesses, too, I want you to know. So the pathological person passes false data about me to a new neighbor couple, who I had befriended and he was upset about that, because he cannot mix well with others on the street. The wife of this new couple, I realize now, had been sex abused, and it was by a male, as was I, so she set out, not to correct the problem, that would have been too easy on me, she wanted to prolong it, not solve it. It was a problem that could have been solved in 5 minutes, if she could talk, but she couldn’t from the abuse. But she did have a lot of hate, and set out with the help of her husband, to give me as much difficulty as they could. They then spread the false data to another pathological neighbor, who had anger personality disorder, who came onto my property and busted the windshield on my car. That’s why I got the improved video cameras with a nice person who said to call lhim if I needed help with that. That’s the person who came by today to look at and save the data on my cameras, and who showed me it was rain and thunder that caused the disturbance at 5 in the morning. Without those cameras and the guy who knew how to work the outfit, I would have never known what caused the disturbance, and would have never stopped running until certain people moved. So the camera did help, very much. The nice camera guy who set them up and helped me process the information, is the person who saved the day. So, one person can make a difference. I also showed that camera person the busted windshield on my car, so all of this is not make believe. If I had not been able to figure out these out of control neighbors, and realize what was going on underneath, and why they were acting that way, pathological behavior, I would not have been able to handle this as well as I have. You get the right people, the right psychological make up, and it can happen. I’m proud of how I handled this. They wanted me to break loose so they could say, “Did you hear what he said?” type of reaction. If I had done even one of the type of things they had done hundreds of times in the last 8 years, they would have been all over me. I did not. Too aware of how humans operate. Like you with your ex-boyfriend. They picked on the wrong person. I’m glad it was rain and thunder. I’m glad it wasn’t what I thought it might be when I woke up out of a sound sleep. I’m glad I can sleep in my own house tonight, and for many nights to come. My housekeeper, who you hate, was right. Again.

Shannon, "I know it is the ex, I have actually seen him go by. No one rides their bikes in this neighborhood in the winter, until spring and they are not the same type of bike. How many times he goes by I don't have a clue, I have no idea what type a vehicle he is driving now, only the motorcycle. Yes I agree with you there is no point to bring it up to my new interest. That old expression if it ain't broke don't fix it. Why disrupt the relationship, and cause him to be uncomfortable when there is no reason to at this point, and may never be a reason to. Like I said I am sure by now he sees the truck in driveway. Hopefully, he will go on his way and leave things as they are. Thanks for your reply." GIMMIE A HIGH FIVE! :-) PS: Once, to keep a (or 'one of the', I should say!) stalking ex off my own back, I did almost exactly the same: bought a second-hand car (engine-less but perfectly good-looking on the outside) to keep parked in my driveway to look like a new lover had moved in. I also began parking my car in the exact same spot so that, what with the decoy car never moving from its own spot, it appeared simply like both I and my new lover had become creatures of wholly anal habit...and as if I were mimicking his habits unconsciously, like you do when bang-slap in love. WORKED! BEAUTIFULLY! PPS: Since you're so naturally switched-on and sensible, would you do me a huge favour of checking out another thread, again, concerning another suspected narcissist (my own suspicion, not his), and offer any support or advice? It's called 'Divorce imminent'. I think perhaps you could help?

PJVL9 number one I do not hate your housekeeper, I don't even know her, I simply said that she is very unprofessional for the service that she is giving. You don't go to work on your job and jump the clients son. You don't come to work and discuss your drug abuse, your families drug abuse, etc., it is very unprofessional, and if the agency that sent this woman to your house, knew what she was doing. I guarantee you that her employment would be terminated. There are a lot of people out there that target the elderly and abuse them. It seems everyone you come in contact with has been sexually abused in one way or another. Most people that have been abused do not go out and talk to strangers about it. I don't know a lot about the subject, I have never been in contact with anyone that was sexually abused and if I have they didn't talk about to anyone. I am glad the problems are working out for you, and it was a matter of thunder and lightening, instead of someone trying to do you bodily harm. I would still keep my guard up, one can't be to safe these days.

Soulmate, thank you for your input again. Today I received a letter in the mail today, marked from the ex, I would assume it is a birthday card since I have an upcoming birthday next week. I tore it into about 10 pieces and tossed in the trash. I have no desire to hear anything he has to say. I have moved on. I will check out the thread as you requested and see if I can share some input.

Thanks. And happy buffday for next week! There's also another thread in your vein, 'Hurting after split with bf after 11 years'. Whether or not you'd want to compare notes, the three of you (or four if PJVL wants to join in?), I think you'll find even silently noting any similarities or direct parallels would help to strengthen your present-day level of conviction. The reason I say that, is because of this glaring, very revealing symptom: " I tore it into about 10 pieces " Unless you're Polly Pocket living in a dollshouse with a tiny bin to-suit (hur-hur), it didn't need shredding first...in other words, wouldn't have roused any emotional response whatsoever, save for mild disdain and pity (or even just a scrunched-up nostril, what I call the Elvis look), if you were already completely moved on *mentally*. So, having entered another relationship that t....iny bit too soon, you need to speed up converting that little quantum of residual anger/outrage to said pity because you can never have any control over what might fly out of your Pandora's Box when under emotional over-arousal during your first big fight with Newbie (whenever it'll be); anything still sat in there will come out with it, which you wouldn't want (because it'd be like exipoos getting the satisfaction of tainting things a bit from a distance). And furthermore, you might fall prey to what I call 'shooting Tiddles for a tiger', whereby, if you spot a pair of whiskers coming round the corner, you'll shoot first and ask questions later, just because both pussycats and tigers share that main characteristic. For example, Newbie might well ('yell') come out with some phrase or other that the ex frequently spouted or which seemed to come from the same attitude, which is highly likely to have your mind suddenly and completely - and more to the point, involuntarily - bracing and screaming, ANOTHER NARCISSIST - RUN!!!...which is going to affect the whole proceedings. Just a buffday tip. :-)

Soulmate, thanks for buffday wish, I tore the card up because it just didn't mean anything to me. I tore it up as my last way of saying screw you. I was left in a limbo state with him and wasn't not given the opportunity to even say what I felt or to show him that what I was saying was true. Instead I was told that I was not even a friend, well my friends and loved ones send me birthday cards, he made that clear I was neither. So I treated the card as I do all other junk mail I get, I tore it up and threw it away, wasn't even curious about what he may have wrote on it. When you get to be my age, birthdays are not that important its just another day, but what enjoyment I may get out of it, he will not be a part of it not even in thought. The newbie and the ex are as different as day and night, the newbie is soft spoken, kind, and respectful, but loves to have fun, hes is very humble and down to earth type of man. That doesn't have to reassure himself or anyone around him who he is by boasting about his material possessions or how much money he has, I'm finding this very appealing to be around.

"The newbie and the ex are as different as day and night, the newbie is soft spoken, kind, and respectful, but loves to have fun, hes is very humble and down to earth type of man. That doesn't have to reassure himself or anyone around him who he is by boasting about his material possessions or how much money he has, I'm finding this very appealing to be around." Leesten verree care-foool-ee, Ah weell seh zis on-lee wance... I KNOW he is. I KNOW he is, is, is, does, is, doesn't, doesn't. I KNOW you are (finding it/him very appealing to be around). They're called standard but little-known symptoms and don't have to be spelled out in such deliberate, direct sentances and semantics as the above. You already SAID all of that, days back, and I already noted you did at the time. So don't make me reach through the ether to ruffle your hair because, in case you similarly hadn't noticed, once I start I can't stop, meaning, you'll end up looking like Cleo Lane, LOL. *Not* a good look. So......Didn't mean anything to me is as didn't mean anything to me *does*, which is...just opens the Brabantia and lets it swiftly half-fall-half-roll off the palm and fingers into the Hole of Calcuttings below... sometimes accompanied by a totally unexpected, little smile of pride (the healthy kind) at ones until-then non-realised near-as-damnit neutrality, whereas, You did and then, just now, said: 'Screw you'. And our survey said: Precisely. You habitually tear up junk mail because you're ANNOYED. You tore that card up because you're ANNOYED. The well-worn phrase at the end of the recovery path goes something more like this: 'Cuh, pff, tuh..What a sad, sad tw*t, I dunno...' before getting swiftly distracted by the idea of a brew-up. Whereas, people who are *still on the angry & disillusioned wedge* say 'screw you', ...albeit I'll grant you the fact, noted, of the missing end flourish of an exclamation mark (or, in some cases, three) (I think seven's the record). So....Annoyance is the thin end of the Anger wedge. But it's still THE WEDGE, it's still a fertile ground where 'airbound' seeds and rain are concerned. I'm not suggesting you're still 'quietly angry' enough to take it out on newbie in situation normal. No. But once your receptors are allowed by your self-preservation mechanisms to grow back their receptivity and sensitivity where, suddenly, it accordingly dawns that this one is way more than just 'fun' or ANY of the above complimentary things, whereby it newly becomes the most important thing in your life, ever, and you and he have that first, 'nerves exposed on the outside' humdinger... As I say, you won't HAVE that choice to keep it underground. So it's better that the box start out already emptied. Fertile ground. I said my warning was a gift and I meant it literally. Why?...you're not trying to hand me back my pressie, are you?! ;-O (- Cheap shot, LOL, but...needs must.) Anyway, you missed a trick. If in future you hold the envelope from either side and rub it against itself (like you used to have to at school) it makes it softer. Not *Andrex* softer, but soft enough, LOL. Additionally, cards, folded, make great doorstops. I know that too, you see, LOL. Anyway, sod all of that! Tell me more about newbie! :-) In fact, why not write me two lists... everything ex wasn't and everything newbie increasingly is revealing that he IS? I love a good victory, dance, me - mine or anyone else's, I ain't fussed! :-)

Soulmate your replies always amaze after I read them several times, sometimes a bit hard to follow but you do make your point. I will tell you outright, hell yes I am annoyed, I am annoyed at myself that I was blind to his game, since I do consider myself a somewhat intelligent woman. I think how could I have been so stupid not to see the signs that were right before me. I would assume you could say it was TRUST. I trusted him, I believed he was being sincere in his words and actions. Yes by all means I am annoyed, at myself. I see no reason to compare him and the newbie they are two entirely different people. The ex had his chance, I gave him two just like I did my husband, after the second with him, there was no trying again for me, the drugs the cheating all major factors I took into making my decision. When I divorced my husband, I had children to take care of, I packed them and myself up and left, never to return or look back and regret the decision that I made. I promised myself at that point I would never let anyone do that to me again or make me feel as if I was not of any importance. That is why I am so annoyed at myself, I let the 40 year friendship cloud my judgement that this man would never treat me that way. I was wrong. I was wrong to assume that he and I were in a relationship, I mean we spent nearly everyday of the 6 months together. I was wrong to think that gave me the right to say I didn't like something, clearly he put me in my place so to speak. When you think about it, who really won, him, the one frequenting my house several times a week, he is the one that clearly can't move on, even though he has a new interest, he still drives by. I say he was the one that lost, because someone like him will never really appreciate when something good comes along, whether it had been me, or whoever, he meets in the future, he is going to have those same issues and it will just keep destroying any chance he has at finding true happiness in his life. Really in the long run did he win, no not really, did I no, in cases like this nobody ever really wins. You just sit back and look at the picture and I see no future with this man, so I have taken the experience and moved on. As for myself, I am content in my life, I am proud of the woman I have become, and the independence that I have, I take care of myself, raised my kids, didn't ask anyone to do it for me, I was there for my family. That is something I am very proud to have accomplished. My kids are full grown, productive adults, college graduates, good jobs, great families. When I set back and look, I see a wealth in front of me that has no monetary value in dollars, but at the time this is something that money can't buy, and makes it far more valuable then any money you could ever make on a job. Today my ex husband and I are very good friends, we learned that we had to get along for the kids, we supported them in everything together. Which I think was a plus for our kids. This ex bf was just another learning curve for me and experience and lesson learned. The newbie, I am not looking for a lasting long term relationship, if it happens that is great, if it doesn't that is fine to. We do seem to have a great deal in common as far as our likes, dislikes, things we enjoy, and so on. You asked for a comparison of the two, this is what I see. The Ex: he starts out being very kind, generous, goes out of his way to make you feel like your the most important person in the world to him, he has overbearing personality, makes himself feel good by boasting about his material possessions, gives his ego a boost by throwing out the dollar figure of his wages. Everything he does is to give himself that social status that he craves, I guess this could come from his upbringing. I am sure that is a contributing factor. His kids have accomplished nothing, in their lives as of yet, they call him every other week wanting money, they don't work. He even bought one of them a home to get them out of his. Don't get me wrong he has good qualities as well, you don't get to see those as often as you see the dominating side to him. He would ask me to do things that my work schedule wouldn't allow me to do. Then he would sulk over it, I told him you have to give me notice to arrange time off. I can't do things at last notice on my job, there is no one to replace me. I would tell him you should go, I have to work there is no reason for you to set home, go with your friends and enjoy yourself. He wouldn't go, but then he would cop an attitude with me because he missed out on the event. Don't get me wrong, he has come a long way from that young boy I used to know, he has a great job, makes an excellent living for himself, was a great provider for his family, those are things that he should be proud of. The Newbie: calm, soft spoken man, that loves to laugh and have fun, you never hear him speak of money or his possessions, all of this just doesn't seem to be important to him. He is a very family oriented man, he helps his parents, he is there for his kids and supports them in everything they do. He has one in college and 2 in regular school and he is there for every function. He wants to be a part of their lives in every way. I respect this quality. My ex and I were the same with our kids, and you can see the difference in how they grow and who they become. This man has self confidence and doesn't need to be reassured of anything. I haven't spent that much time with him as of yet, not really a lot I can say about him as of yet. Everyone is different in their own way, everyone has good and bad qualities, some are more obvious then others. The longer you get to know someone and that comfort zone settles in then you get to see the true colors, my ex, was just like the newbie starting out, but once he got in that comfort zone, here come the negative.

The reason I haven’t been writing on the website is because, my keyboard wouldn’t work. I would type on the keyboard, and it wouldn’t type on the screen. I just spent more than an hour on the helpline and they finally got it to work. It hasn’t worked for 5 days, it seems like. The reason I said you hate my housekeeper was to try and get a rise out of you. I knew you didn’t hate her, but you did tell me to get another housekeeper. You got the bad parts about my housekeeper, but you didn’t get the good parts. The bad part was, that she was on drugs. The good part was that she got off of drugs, was able to get her health-problem grown son back in her home, rather than in a state-supported home. I figure to get her son back home, she would have to had passed a series of drug tests over some months. The bad part about her daughter was that she got her children taken away from her not this Christmas, but last Christmas, for making “home-cooked” meth with her boyfriend in her kitchen. The good part is that the daughter got a job, which she has held for about 3 months now, and which if she keeps it up, may get her children back. As for why do you allow this to go on, she helps me and I’m trying to help her. I tell her, the same things I tell a number of people on this board, “One problem at a time, and be positive about that problem.” I also show her this column on being positive that I read about 15 or more years ago, and which I have repeated for a number of people on this board, and which has helped me tremendously. You’ve never seen it, because I didn’t think you needed it. The column said to think positive before going into a problem, that you can solve it. I had never considered that one time in my life. It really changed my life. I didn’t know it, but unconsciously I was negative. After reading the column, I put it on the bullitan board and told myself, the next time you have a column, get the column down and read it. The problem is not the problem, the problem is your negative unconscious. A few days later I had a problem. I got the column down and started reading it. By the time O got to the 4th paragraph, I thought of the solution to the problem, and didn’t let my unconscious negate it. The column had worked. It had changed my life. Since then, I’ve passed that column around to as many people as I could. I gave it to my housekeeper. And I told her my new philosophy: “One problem at a time, and be positive about that problem.” I also told her, before I go into a problem, to guard against my neg. uncon. slipping up on me, I try to drive it out by saying, “Think positive, think positive, think positive…” so that I will try to think of all the positive answer that I can, and when I think of one, I won’t denounce it, as part of my uncon. trying to undermine me. I was telling her all of this, while she was helping me. I’ve read where helping others is better for you than being helped. For one thing, it turns the flow of energy in the other direction, from worrying about oneself, to worry about others. She told me today that taking care of her grown son has it’s up and downs, but she’s doing OK, and that she really like it and is glad to have him home. She’s had him since a few days before Christmas, or about 25 days now. You can’t do that and be on drugs. She also told me today that on her off days she’s doing volunteer work with an agency that help others. I gave her a hug for that one. And her daughter has been off drugs and working for about 3 months now, and may be one day be able to get her children back. You can’t do that and be on drugs. It starts with the mother and radiates out. I sometimes give the mother tips, with a portion of it to go to her daughter. The strength starts with the mother, and radiates out. The daughter copies the mother--good or bad--and the children of the daughter, copy their mother. It all starts with the grandmother, who is a very good and strong person. You wrote, “you have a wild life for a senior citizen. How do you get into so much trouble?” Well, as a manic-depressive, I do have a temper. Also, I don’t like guys, I love helping females, but guys get on my nerves. I’m not the most macho of guys, and I don’t fully ID with all of them, and they don’t like that, so it’s like oil and water. My dad was the same way, he never got along with his bosses. They were all males. Same way with me and some of the guys in the neighborhood. Just don’t like them, it brings out the worst in them.But I wouldn’t trade my temprement. I get along real well with my housekeeper for over a year now. She said from the start, “I’m not interested in getting married,” and I said, “I’m not either.” I just like her cause she’s female, and I enjoy helping her, but I don’t want to marry her. Get alone well with her daughter and I’ve never met her, but she’ll ask her mother on the phone every now and then, “How’s Mr. Jones,” and I’m always asking my housekeeper, “How’s your daughter?” So, I rub guys the wrong way, because I’m not one of them, a lot of them, and it pisses them off. And then things start, and it gets around the neighborhood. So, that’s why I’m in all this trouble. . It sounds like you have had a full life surrounded with abusers of every type, my heart goes out to you. You said, “It seems everyone you come in contact with has been sexually abused in one way or another. Most people that have been abused do not go out and talk to strangers about it. I don't know a lot about the subject, I have never been in contact with anyone that was sexually abused and if I have they didn't talk about to anyone. “ As for that, I read book about Adolpf Hitler some years ago, have always been int. in how a wild person could take over a country, and almost take over the world, how did he do that? The book’s theory was that he had a condition I had never heard of, borderline personality syndrome, and in reading about Hitler, I was reading about his condition, which he didn’t really have, they said actually he was a psychopath. But in reading about the condition, I realized it applied to someone who I was terrible int. in, so I read and re-read some parts of the book 5 and 10 times or more. One day, I was thinking about the book, and thinking about my wife, alternately, and it struck me—my wife was borderline. It was like seeing a ghost. Like you said, “I don’t even know anyone who’s been abused,” yeah you do. You know them, but you don’t know they’ve been abused. You don’t know what to look for. It’s hard to see. I knew my wife for 30 years, and didn’t know she was two people. As I say, when you realize it, it’s like seeing a ghost. This one physical person is really 2 people inside. Scary. That’s like your ex-boyfriend. You may have known him for 25 years, but you may not know him. There’s something about him that you don’t know, if as soon as you catch him in a lie, he becomes another person and declares, “You’re a liar.” And then sends you a Christmas card. They can hold jobs, they can fake it, they can fool you and others for decades, but inside they can be somebody you don’t know. So, once you’ve uncovered this condition, it can be almost fairly common. They don’t wear a sign around their neck, but the more you get to know them, the more you notice their behavior, you know you know what to look for, the more obvious it can become. This woman up the street who gave me a hard time for 8 years. She walked real fast, and drove her car real fast. Shannon: what is she running from? What happened in her past to make her where she can’t stop for five minutes and talk? What happened in her past, Shannon? You said, “I am glad the problems are working out for you, and it was a matter of thunder and lightening.” And, “I would still keep my guard up, one can't be to safe these days.” I do appreciate that. Yeah, hey, after all the rough stuff, you appreciate the nice ones 10 times mores. That's how I make it through all of this.

PJVL9 I am glad you have found a way to make everything work for you, but have you really, I mean the past week you left your home in fear of your life. I know you said you are a manic depressive, my aunt is manic depressive, she goes from high mood to low in matter of seconds, one minute very sociable, the next get up and walk out of your house and you don't hear from her for months. I am glad you read a column that has helped you stay positive and its wonderful that you are passing this on to others. My ex is not physically abusive, but he does abuse mentally with mind games, he treats you like a queen as long as you don't do the big NO NO, that is question anything about him. I think he tends to forget to leave his job at work, hes boss, so therefore, I think he feels that entitles him to be a boss every where else. As long as you can play by those rules your in his good graces, if you don't your fired. Your referenced Hitler, this man was a complete psychopath, that tried to wipe out a full race of people. He may have been borderline, or a combination of several personality disorders. It is great your housekeeper has come a long way, to improve herself. People do make full recoveries, and many pull the wool over others eyes, like my ex husband did with me, he hid his problem very well until it got to the point he couldn't hide it. The daughter, got caught cooking meth with her boyfriend with the children in the house. She is not in jail and still has her kids. Do you see how weak this system is, how children slip through the cracks. These children wear in grave danger, they could have blown the house up and killed all of them. This woman walks and still has her kids. I will tell you yes you can do drugs and get past the system, I have a sibling that is big into the drugs, he was on probation, did drugs daily, he go down to the a local shot and buy this stuff you drink, drink it for a couple days and go take his UA and pass it no problems. Walk out and go start the drugs again, anyone can get around a system. Whether or not your housekeeper and her daughter are or aren't on drugs, I don't have a clue, I would hope they are not and continue on a path of healing. I made a statement that if the agency that sent her to your home, knew of her conduct, and the things she is doing, she would not have a job. This I know because I have home care takes care of my disabled parent while I am at work. I know the screening process, I know what is allowed and not allowed, I have had to get rid of a couple of them, because the services they gave were not acceptable. However, if you like her and she does a good job for you then by all means keep her. How is she doing her job, when she is banging your son??? Still again I say she is very unprofessional. She is being paid to help you, if she wants to see your son they should go out after she is off work. You are exactly right about the ex bf, yes I have known him for 40 years, but many of those years we weren't around each other, so there is a lot about each other that we don't know. Which is why when the subject was brought up about moving in together, I suggested we wait awhile longer and see how things go, get to know each others habits better, this was the first sign that something to me wasn't right with him, again he went from moving in together and immediately to he couldn't see me anymore because he needed to figure out what he wants. Had he really cared for me and wanted to move in with me, he would have said okay we can wait awhile longer and see how things go. I guess its true that everyone is different in many ways, and this is what makes us individuals, it separates us from each other. One can appear to be very normal in many aspects of their personality and daily functions, and yet be a complete stranger to you in some other area. I am sure this is all factors that have been contributed by the way he was raised. What it appears to me is he wants a relationship, but once he gets it he doesn't know how to be in a relationship, he has no clue what it is to be an adult that sits down and discusses and issue. This automatically is drama, and we made an agreement, that there would be no drama. I am sorry but every topic or conversation is not drama, and adults have to communicate or there is no hope for any relationship to survive under these conditions. Something that you weren't able to do with your wife either because she would become very irrational and start screaming and yelling, turning the tables on you. The way I manage, I keep the BS out of my life, I won't be in a relationship that I have to walk on pins and needles to be around someone, I can't make a statement that I don't feel comfortable about something, or I don't have a right to voice my opinion. That is not for me, I am not the type to bite my tongue repeatedly to keep from offending someone, I will for so long and then when I have my feel, here it comes and it all comes out. Just as it did when he started calling me dishonest, untrustworthy, I was a liar, and a snoop. Well you know everyone has their breaking point and after one to many names my attitude came out. Then he heard how I felt about him and his good friend. The best thing for me to do was break my ties with him, consider the source of the problem and move on. I enjoyed his company but not at that expense and I don't ever see his attitude changing, its his way or no way, and that is not my way. Time for this woman to head on down the road.

Sounds like newbie has something very fundamental that ex doesn't: he doesn't try to substitute the relationship-based, par-for-the-course, psychological demand for enduring increasing vulnerability (or bolstering reasons to love HIMSELF) using MONEY and can show it in the normal, healthier ways. That's a HUGE, VITAL difference - because it's his very foundation as is getting meshed with yours, meaning, the resultant house atop it isn't likely to ever fall down or end up lopsided. :-) Is he a better kisser and hugger and/or better in bed yet, as well? ******************** PJ, you're supposed to be the adviser/feedbacker/supporter here and yet suddenly this is becoming more about you and your problems, you seeking feedback from Shannon. Really, you should start your own thread if you still have things to get out of your system, yeh?

The newbie has put a very refreshing twist on everything in this relationship. He is just himself, no building himself up to become the larger then life alpha male. Today of all things he took me fishing, I haven't been fishing since I was a young girl. I had forgotten how fun it can be, even though I was an ice cube by the time we left. The day was really quite enjoyable. The personal dept. I have never really given it much thought, but honestly, I would have to say they are about equal. That is not a bad thing.

You mean he doesn't have to substitute vulnerability or self-like and -pride with money? That's a huge and vital difference. In fact, it's the number one difference that makes ALL the difference. BTW, ref your earlier comments: no point in beating yourself up when had it NOT been for the ex-relationship, you wouldn't have been ready to get into something this serious and potentially lasting. So it's all good (just never feels like it at the time) (bit like that ice-fishing, LOL). Also, the bedroom biz *can't* be about equal because you and newbie can only have been dating for about three to four months and getting jiggy for (presumably) even less. But here's another diff that makes all the diff: when you're right for each other, it just KEEPS getting better and better. So you've got that part to look forward to. :-) (PS: Out of interest, am I difficult to follow because I try to pack too much into each sentance or because I go too deep (or both)?)

I am very happy the ex is gone, there would have been no future in that relationship. Yes the newbie definitely does not need to throw money out there to have his ego petted. Yes it does make a difference the newbie is concentrating on the small things that are of no monetary value, but in return seem priceless. The fishing for instance, no money spent, just a simple day out doing nothing but spending time together, it was a great day. The bedroom biz, I wasn't referring to how many times, I was referring to the experience, both are equal in that regard. NO I haven't been with the newbie as long as I have the ex that is true. They are both different, so I don't really like to compare them. Honestly, the ex was probably the better, but we didn't have to get to know each other that made a big difference, when your comfortable with someone starting out. The newbie, I have known for many years but never spent time with him, so everything we do, or places we go, its all a new experience, especially in the bedroom. What I meant by you are hard to follow is not that you go to deep into a subject. Some of the expressions you use, I would assume you are English, some of the phrases, and slang make it bit hard to grasp at first so I go back and reread until I figure it out, not a bad thing, gives your responses a much lighter tone for a bad situation in a lot of cases. I like it.

Fairenoughski (s/he said, doing it again, LOL). No, I wasn't referring to quantity, either, just quality. When there are no blockades to true mental intimacy then at some point (which will be from when said 'numbed receptors' get freed up), starting to experience sex simultaneously 'from both ends' (head/heart *and* body) increasingly kicks in (the conduit obviously being true and complete trust) and things suddenly start to get gobsmackingly all-round "woah...serious headf*ck!"... which is precisely when you start to realise that what you used to have with all of your exes was 'sex', whereas this is a whole new, without-name [scuse pun] ballgame and the bedroom starts to get majorly decorated and lit to-suit, like it's become a sort-of spiritual shrine (which in a way, it has). Don't expect you can relate to that yet because [1] it's still early days and [2] it's something that genuinely transcends all words to describe it (tellingly). But that's one of the truly surprising and overwhelming things you've got to look forward to once you add true bonded-ness to A1 chemistry and intense like and love.

I wasn't referring to the quantity either, but the quality that is the one thing with the ex I didn't have any problems with. However, the newbie seems to be the same way, but this relationship hasn't been going to long and we have never been around each other the way the ex and I were. Best of friends growing up together, we knew each other very well, so we were both very much at ease. The newbie that comfort stage has reached its fullest yet. I am sure it will only get better with time. The outcome is to soon to tell but I think if we take things slow and them progress on their own without rushing things, it definitely has the potential to grow into something really great. Right now I am enjoying just spending time with someone that listens when I talk and doesn't interrupt me to brag about something that really had no meaning to the conversation to begin with. I really didn't care to hear about what he used to have, lets be in the present and the future, I was there, that should of told him I didn't care what he had or had lost. Now he lost something else in his life a great friend and a really good relationship that may have had the potential to be very fulfilling. Now he will never find that out. The newbie and I have a great friendship, and I hope it continues to only get better.

"I am enjoying just spending time with someone that listens when I talk and doesn't interrupt me to brag about something that really had no meaning to the conversation to begin with." LOL. 'Ex for sale, used to own a yacht. (Please form an orderly queue)'. PS: Keep me posted as things with newbie progress, won't you. And by the way, your bang-on counterpart on here, including the happy ending, is a bloke called Vildar (go Search).

Soulmate, the newbie has invited me to go up to his families cabin in Colorado, I accepted, but I told him I have never skied he said no problem, he will teach me, and there are other things we can go do while we are there, snowmobiling, etc. I think its going to be a great trip and a good time to really get to know each other. I am really looking forward to spending some time with him, but a little scared to meet his family. I am not sure how I will fit into this world I have never been around these types of things. I not accustomed to being around the money, the trips, etc. I guess you can say I am interested but a little scared at the same time. Even though we known each other for many years we have never had the opportunity to be around each other, so I don't really know what I am getting myself into with meeting his family. I hope they are as genuine and real as he is. I think this trip is something that will give us both the opportunity to learn a lot about each other. Yes I will keep you updated on the progress. I have done some thinking about the ex, (NO NOT WANTING HIM BACK), still confused over his behavior that final day, really to blow up the way he did over something so petty it just wasn't him, not the person I have known for many years. I was wondering, when we started dating he was taking a med to help him sleep, the Dr. prescribed it for him, after reading about this med, it is a narcotic, called Ativan, which is highly addictive from what I read about it. When we started dating he was taking this because he had problems sleeping, the Dr. prescribed it to be taken daily. However, he stopped taking this after we started dating because it caused him problems, this is a narcotic that he had been taking for 2 years, and he just stopped taking it cold turkey. Many of the symptoms were anxiety, moody, angry, hypersensitivity, no reasoning with them, things of this nature. He was exactly that way, you could not reason with him, he had it set in his mind and wouldn't listen to anything I had to say. He was also this way when we broke up the first time. After the first break-up he started taking it again, he said he couldn't sleep, his mind ran 100 miles an hour at night, thinking about me. So then he would take it when I had to work, and then would stop taking it when I was off. This had to affect him, it said you should not miss any doses of this med. He would just stop taking it. Do you possibly think the back and forth, taking, not taking, could have brought this complete change in his attitude on. Because what I saw that day was just not him. Angry, accusing me, you couldn't reason, everything I said he took completely out of context. Most generally doctors prescribe it for 2 weeks, his doctor was giving him a full 30 day prescription for this drug. Just was wondering what your take on this might be on what I am thinking here, that drug withdrawel could have caused his attitude to escalate completely out of control, and go off on me the way he did. Looking for you input on both of these.

Soulmate, the ex boldly decided to come knocking on my door today. I thought it was the newbie, so I just answered without looking out. Boom there he was, I was like WTH are you doing here are you lost, he laughed and said ha that is funny. I said it wasn't meant to be a joke. I said why are you here, we haven't spoken in 7 months, now you think its okay to just come up and knock on my door. He said well I was in the neighborhood I thought about you so I thought I would stop and say Hi, and see how you been. I said well I will tell you how I have been, I have been amazing since you bowed out of my life, I have no desire to talk to you today, tomorrow, or any other day. I said you chose to dump on my for a barfly, now you think its okay after 7 months to just act like nothing happened. I said well sorry you are wrong. You destroyed our friendship, our relationship, you called me names and made accusations that weren't true. I wasn't given the opportunity to show you that I was telling the truth or to even defend myself. Then you had the nerve to block me like I did something wrong to you. I said well the one that was wronged in this was me. You said I violated your trust, sorry, you violated my trust when you accepted the friend request. I said let me guess did it brush your big ego to have the ex come sniffing around you, did it make you feel important. The thought of what 2 women chasing you did that get you excited. In the meantime the newbie pulls up, he gets out he could see I wasn't happy. I told him go ahead inside I will be in in a few minutes. He said no problem and went inside. The ex now is not happy, he said oh I see why you have this attitude, he said that was the guy interested in you before, what was you doing sneaking around talking to him. I said don't even go there, you know that is not true. I said I gave you 2 chances, I also, gave you the opportunity to let you out of the relationship with no problems, and we would go back to being friends. You were the one that said that isn't what you wanted. Well actions speak louder then words, and your actions screamed that you didn't want me, if you had you wouldn't have been sneaking around talking to her, you just didn't think I would find out, sorry FB snitched you out. I told him I have moved on you and your friendship or the relationship means absolutely nothing to me, you had your chance and you completely blew it. Now there is no place for you in my life what so ever. I told him I never thought that I would ever dislike you in any way but you truly make me sick to my stomach. I said now I would appreciate it if you would leave and not come back, because there is nothing that you could ever say to me that would make me change my mind or my opinion of you. I said now I have a friend waiting for me so I am going to assume you can see yourself to your bike out there. Which by the way, there really is no need for you to continue to drive past my house since now you know how I feel about you. I told him I stopped playing the role of a doormat when I divorced my husband, and your no exception. I would appreciate it if you would see yourself off my property and don't come back. I apologized to the newbie, he wasn't upset, and he didn't feel put out because he showed up. He said its not your fault he came here. I said no I thought it was you at the door. I said well hopefully now he will go away and stay away. I have to say it felt so good to have to be able to tell him what I thought of how he treated me and to have the opportunity to let him know just what I think of him now.

'Scuse the delay, this week's been so busy, putting it crudely, I've barely had time to f*rt! Taking your two posts in reverse order (for obvious reasons): 1. The ex having come knocking: No effing way!!! Ok, got Capt'n Kirk out of my system, now for the Spockie response... Good for you for that 'up yours' and 'you're a self-sabotaging idiot' speech. Particularly as it was all true. As I read all of that I was repeatedly going WOAH! out-loud and thinking 'Ooch, that's gotta hurt'. You certainly told him how it is and was, didn't you. How pricelessly cathartic a closure was THAT? You lucky thing! *He's* not, though (lucky): 'Oh, I see why you have this attitude'? Oh, puke...ridiculous man. Yeeees, that's right, you go home with your comforting little delusion that you did ab-solutely nothing wrong whatsoever [ting! - halo] and it's merely that some other bloke managed to "put her under his spell" and "steal her" from under you (pff!). Although, I doubt he'll be able to nurture that delusion now, what with your having given it to him with both almighty barrels! Still, what on earth did he expect - the Red carpet treatment? Clearly - yes! (Incredible, eh? What chutzpah.) It appears Newbie must have secretly eavesdropped (in fact, I'd bet my house on it). But that's good. I mean, LOL - he certainly has no need for any jealous and insecure thoughts over that man *now*, does he! :-D Still, it 'shows to go ya': if you'd been someone that HAD wanted a reconciliation (and hadn't met newbie) then, failing to respond when they tantamountedly tap and scratch pathetically at your basement windows ("vroom-vroom!") *does* force them eventually to have to use the damn front door. Maybe this'll get ex finally taking a long, hard look about his whole behaviour and how he treats women? I doubt it, but, for the good of womankind, one can hope, eh. But, no, you *don't* have to say how good it felt; I think anyone can easily put themselves into those shoes and feel what you felt. Anyway, in a nutshell - well done! That's what you CALL clearing the deck detritus to make smoother way for the new relationship. Really pleased for you and newbie. :-) 2. The invitation to Colerado: I've never skiied, either... too busy, all these years, going 'Eenie-meenie-minie-BEACH!'. Plus I like my legs too much to risk breaking either of them, LOL. More to the point, though, is [1] his eagerness to teach you (meaning, this holiday's mainly for you/you & he, not him) and [2] GETTING INTRODUCED TO AND PROPERLY ACQUAINTED WITH HIS PARENTS! Don't bother being scared. It's one of those things that the imagination runs paranoid riot with, the reality barely ever matching up with it. They're just maxi versions of him (and no doubt just as nervous and hopeful as you). So I'm sure you'll all get on brilliantly. Oops, I see we're 'back' onto the topic of exipoos. Nah... Look at it this way: even IF his cold turkey had sent him doolally whilst you and he were trying to get it on, all that proves is that the timing wasn't right, which itself proves he wasn't your "one" (Right Person, Right Place, Right Time). He was a stepping-stone (to newbie). A rebounder always is. As, undoubtedly, are you to him. And you're not trying to seriously tell me that one of the symptoms of coming too drastically off his medication is to sit there at the theatre, lasciviously and very rudely rubber-necking at every other attractive woman all night? See what I'm saying? Nah. Nice, as in generous-spirited, thought, but.... Nah. The simpler fact is that at 10ft distance (as friends) he was okay, possibly even nice to know, but at 2ft range and under was a completely different ballgame wherein you got to see his truer colours. You could say his medication *exacerbated* his tendency to want to "woo" by negative means (threats to your security) instead of positive, healthier ones (impressing and treating like a rare and precious thing), but, here's the thing: alcohol, medication... no drug 'makes' someone like they are, it just removes those inhibitions that normally allow a person to keep their truer nature - or truer but predominant *side* of their nature - under wraps for however long before the non-stop act tires them out and they have to drop it. In other words, it *was* him. But a side of him you wouldn't ever have seen and felt had you not shimmied up far closer than you did back when you were friends. And that's the objective (because nobody's perfect): finding out the DEGREE of dark side and how it compares, overall, to their light side. I call it the dark-to-light ratio/percentage and this ex-relationship, going by your whole reaction since as well as everything you've said on here and on other threads, it was pretty poor...e.g. 40% light, 60% dark. Too bad to stay. What you're looking for is a bloke who starts off - in your opinion, according to your preferences and settings - as 95/10... because then, when he naturally relaxes into his truer, day-by-day self, he can only drop by 10-15%, roughly, meaning, you're laughing. Now you imagine that relaxation drop happening when the bloke/relationship starts out at only 70% light at best. That's right - you're down to a relationship that has a ratio of only 55-60% pleasure (forget it, you can get better than that with a mere *friend*). Nope, it's as it should be, it's all good. :-) Anyway, how you treated him at the door proves you knew this notion was but wishful thinking to begin with (actions!). Onwards and upwards! When's the trip?

Soulmate you are exactly right that is his true nature a side I had never seen before. Most definitely not the guy I used to know, medication or not. He reached his comfort zone and the true colors came through. Thank goodness I didn't move in with him when he asked, my reply was I think we need to get to know each other again a long time has passed, I guess those instincts were telling me something. Which set him off, why because, the ego was bruised. I'm getting pretty good at that it seems, I got a couple of texts from him today telling me how rude I was, when all he wanted to do was say hello and see how I had been. He said he couldn't call because my numbers were all changed. The texts came through my fb account, I must bow to the gods above I have been unblocked, big whoop. I did not reply to them, I just deleted them off. Then I searched for his profile and I blocked him now he cannot find me again. He will never be added as a contact on there again. I hope he gets it into his brain that I don't want his friendship any longer. He doesn't know what it is to be a friend to anyone. The ski trip starts tomorrow, we leave in the morning for Aspen. I think its going to be really great time. Your right about the newbie everything he has planned for the trip is basically to share a part of his world with me. He said there are a lot of things to do up there, he said don't worry you will enjoy yourself, and my family will like you as much as I do. Did I mention, I hate the cold, I grew up on the west coast and I love the beach and the sun. I guess the next vacation we take I will have to take him to visit my relatives on the west coast, have to show him how nice the beach is. I will keep you updated on my trip, and weather I am in traction, or have any broken limbs.

No (ref 'not the guy I used to know'), you're not quite grasping the concept. Nearly... Picture a human as an actual diamond with, say, 100 facets but where collectives of neighbouring facets become grouped into overall fascias, demarcation-wise if not in terms of geometrics. So, say, there's the North facia - his business/work colleague persona; then the East - his child/son persona; the West - the friend; and the South - the lover (or variations as well if he has more life roles to 'play', like uncle or sibling). The diamond presents whichever fascia suits the nature of the relationship as itself gets dictated by the nature of the event and circumstances in which you first meet and tacitly agree will be the nature there and then or however soon after meeting. So Mr Lawnmower-Rider met you as a child and presented the West facia...and that's the fascia you got to know well. Unbeknownst to you, although the West fascia was in encouragingly okay condition, his South side turned out to be badly chipped, tarnished, cloudy, etc. (and covered in sh*t) (sorry, couldn't resist). You HAD to get as close up as possible in record time (with a peg on your nose, a rubber glove and some Dettol, obviously, LOL) - enough to be hurtable - because otherwise the 'windows' were so difficult to see through. (Sense?) Hence despite having known and rubber-stamped his West side, once the change in relationship nature occurred as called for him to present and operate, whenever with you, as the South fascia, his West side couldn't compensate for the South (because one can't compensate for a failure to provide a promised executive office job with a job in the post room; that's demotion, not compensation). Not the SIDE of him you used to know, is what you mean. So that's that anal bit dealt with (;-))... You sensing this situation yet to unfold will be WHY you declined moving in with him, not just because of the prematurity of time factor. So forget 'goodness' and, indeed, thank your perfectly fully-functioning instincts and intuition. Rude? RUDE? He - Mr Rubberneck, "It's over!", "Hello, you haven't seen me for months, but", Lawnmower-Rider - wants to lecture YOU on what's rude? Can I have his address please? I'd like to have a little chattipoos with him. (joke) (sadly) Does he do that to all his exes - call round after 6 months to see how cut up they still are (or not, in your case)? Someone needs to cut his crap if he thinks you'd believe 'all he wanted to do was' blah-blah, and the thought that he'd been BLOCKED rather than you having just woken up one morning and decided to change all your contact means for a giggle, just didn't occur to him. We KNOW what he wanted, thanks very much. And NO BLOCKED NUMBERS ARE GOING TO STOP *HIM*, THE MIGHTY PUTT-PUTT RIDER, OHHH NO! Good grief, another man who's managed to convince himself all women are thick and gullible. Is that why he (cough!) dumped you, is it? Stab her through the heart to make her keener? Did he think that would work? Does he think he's clever? Does he NOW? Why is it I wish I could left-hook your ex? I think that's my cue to go 'n 'ave a fag. Back in a bit...

Aspen? Newbie's treating you to Aspen? Ooh, I say, somebody's in love and trying to hurry things the RIGHT way! How many 'meeting the parents' is that going to be? Ten? Fifteen? (Oh, my. I don't need to deck your ex. He's clearly got that coming via the highest hand there is.) "I hate the cold, I grew up on the west coast and I love the beach and the sun." Ah-hah. The fishing day was a little test to see how you'd cope with the temperature and 'break you in' a little? Well, anyway, have a superb time! PS: You might not end up in traction but methinks you'll still spend quite a lot of your time lain flat on your back with your legs-gosh, is that the time? ;-)

PPS: WILLINGLY, I mean. :-)

Soulmate, again you are right, it was a side of him that I had never seen or had the opportunity to get to know. I have always been very good with my instincts and not one to jump into anything with both feet without giving something a chance to see how it progresses first. I am glad I trusted my instincts with this one, I think sometimes what would have happened had I moved in. What in two weeks I would have been tossed aside or then really treated like crap. The ex thinks hes a player and definitely a ladies man, and he may play that act on all the women he dates, I don't know. When my husband changed is habits, I was on it instantly, I knew something was wrong I just never realized that it was such an extreme wrong. He thought he was so clever, and I told him your an idiot that thinks your a genius and I am a hell of a lot smarter then you. I told him do not play me, I know what the problem is you cannot fool me. I said you have a choice get some help, and I will get you any help you need, that is the only choice you have. I was informed that he did not have a problem, I said then I can do nothing for you and I won't live in this crap and neither will my kids, his reply was you will or else. I said I will take the or else because you don't look that appealing anymore. I packed my stuff and my kids and we were out of there. The ex underestimated me, I guess he thought I would be as weak as the others he has played this act on. I am not gullible. Like you said he dumped me, banished me from all contact with him, stabbed me in the heart as you put it, yes it hurt especially when I had done nothing wrong. What he didn't realize is that I was not the type that would come crawling back and beg and plead with him to take me back and give me another chance. I gave him 2 and he blew it both times, now he is the one that has been banished from my world. Sadly, I told him from the beginning that I don't play games, if at any point he changed his mind about me just say so, it will cause no problems and we will be friends as always. Then he acted that way, I really saw no point of it, I never wanted to end our friendship, if the relationship didn't work out. We made great friends. Evidently this is not how he operates and this time it backfired on him. Yes he needs someone to give him a good crack, but honestly he doesn't deserve the effort it would take. The best way to hurt him is to do what I just did, don't play his game, pick yourself up, dust off the dirt and move on. Yes the newbie, is trying very hard to move things along quickly, and he had told me before that he does love me, he said I have for a long time, so that is no surprise. I told him love is a term that is thrown around to much anymore and people don't really know the true meaning of what it means to love someone. I asked him to let things go slow and see what happens, the right way. I don't have the same instincts with him as I did with the ex, my feelings are quite the opposite. The newbie loves the outdoors whether its in the summer or the winter, he enjoys activities for both seasons. I think I can't wait for summer though, LOL. I think your right about the fishing day, he was testing me to see if I could handle the cold, I can handle it I just don't like it. I will keep you posted as to how the trip is going, I am sure there will be some topics that I will need to discuss at some point.

Goes to show you, that what you at the time THINK is a devastation is actually a clearing-out in preparation for the bigger, better thing or things. LOL, 'you will or else'. Incredible! What a twazzock. How's he enjoying his 'else'? :-p You DO have to play games, though (hence why it's called The Mating Game). Initially, anyway, until you've merged into one bona-fide team. But the diff that makes all the diff is *THE DEGREE*. Also, for good Karma, games should be those where you ensure both of you come out a winner (which isn't rocket science but, again - diff/all the diff). Your ex definitely took that to the unhealthily extreme domain. And this is his consequence. PS: Do put all your Aspen pics up on "Fakebook", won'tcha. ;-) He doesn't take no for an answer, though, does he - think about it: who would still feel like pushing (the text) after a doorstep pasting like the one you dealt him? So what I'm saying is, don't assume that definitely is the last you'll hear. Not that it matters...with your attitude, he could turn up outside your house in a helicopter, singing 'I Can't Live' through a loud-hailer, for all the good it'd do him. But not even my resorting to 'Look, just eff off and stop trying to contact me, pugly!' did the trick to get rid of my own rebound ex. His response was a whiney, 'You don't have to bee soo NAAA-STYYY (mew-mew)'. I said, 'CLEARLY, I DO' [click, BRRRR...]. Two years it took, in all, kid you not (but luckily, I have the patience of a saint and could ignore for England.) Mr Soulmate's ex, on the other hand, emerged from out of the woodwork (get this) TEN YEARS ON. He too in the end had to resort to insults along the theme of, poo you smell. Goes to show you again - we're all just too damned gorgeous and irresistible, LOL. Re your response to Newbie's telling you he loves you. Careful does it, don't forget the delicacy of the male ego. Suggest you take my tack: draw a line, make a mark a little way along from the left, and say: This whole line represents how much of you there is to get to know...This mark here is how much of you I so far have had a chance to get to know...And that little bit I LOVE. (Works every time :-)) Yep, keep me posted. I'm definitely a whole story/long-haul merchant, and it's good for the viewers at home to see there IS life after [whatever]. :-)

Soulmate you are right I doubt I have seen or heard the last of the ex, but its going to do him no good. I just don't see him going down without some type of fight with his ego bruised heavily by now, you know because I am so rude, PFFFFTTT. That is just so typical of his Narc type, again he has done no wrong, and I am being the rude one. Why would I have any reason to be kind to him, when I was kicked straight to the curb, and not spoken to for the past 7 months. I mean what am I thinking, I know I should have rolled out the red carpet to my door and welcomed him with open arms back into my life. Would he even have any interest in me if it weren't for the fact he knows I am now seeing someone else. Did he honestly think that I would sit at home and play the heartbroken victim the past 7 months while he picked up with whomever would have him. I think NOT. I think when I get back home, I am going to send him a thank you card for giving me the space to explore other options, and because of that I have had the opportunity to spend time with this amazing man and go on this amazing vacation. Yes an maybe throw a few pics in it, of me and the newbie in front of this beautiful cabin in the mountains. Aspen, is so beautiful with the mountains and snow. I am having a wonderful time so far. His family has been very nice to me, they are just like him, which I expected. I have a date with a pair of skis, will see how this goes. I don't think its going to be as smooth as he thinks, but we will find out, LOL.

"Would he even have any interest in me if it weren't for the fact he knows I am now seeing someone else." Well done! ;-) "Did he honestly think that I would sit at home and play the heartbroken victim the past 7 months while he picked up with whomever would have him." Yup! But that's just his own cover story to himself, because it's a lot more flattering than the truth, which is this: If I'm spending all my free time thinking about and 'chasing back after' this poster girl, I have a SORT-OF love-life but don't actually have to do the (oo-er) real thing. He's a Grade A Commitmentphobe. Really, he KNOWS he's not going to get you back. But he just wants you mentally still engaged enough to give him the wherewithal to kid himself there's a point to all this; he can't be engaged and unavailable as an avoidance technique if you're refusing to play that co-starring role, the whole one hundred percent, can he. Another element is him not wanting another man to show him how it should be done. So this is him playing human spanner in then works. So your NEXT response (if again in-person) should convey the fact you're BORED...UNIMPRESSED... FINDING HIM AND THE SITUATION LUDICROUS AND TEDIOUS, ETC. Bored, Unimpressed and Slightly Amused is as *does*. Here's how the very last 'exchange' between myself and exipoos went: Me: [BRRING-BRRING....] Hello? Him: [his stock-standard intro] Hi... It's me. Me: Sorry, what? Let me turn the music down a bit, I can't really hear you very well... Sorry, caller, can you repeat that - who is this? Him: [sudden comically ridiculous attempt to completely change and deepen his voice] Er... I've made a mistake, sorry. [you say wrong number, not I've made a mistake, right?] Me: Pardon, sorry? Who is this? [now enjoying it] Is that you, [ex's name]? Him: Er... No, it's Keith, I was trying to call John. Me: Oh, right... No, there's no John here, sorry. Him: [click] I called a contact at BT the next day to find out the caller number and - yyyup-ah! - him! (as if I didn't know already). But as far as HE was concerned, I NO LONGER EVEN RECOGNISED HIS VOICE OR ROUTINE PATTER. But don't, whatever you do, send that thank-you card. You'll remember why if you re-read that post above wherein I described the classic "I still care is as I still care *does*" phonecall pretending to feel the opposite. The above attitude to take is only if HE attempts contact. Facebook, however, you're at liberty to shout/illustrate about whatever you like without it having to mean ANYTHING in terms of pertinence to him. Meanwhile, you sound like you're having a ball! A snow-ball (hur-hur). PS: If you lose balance, just make sure you fall on top of him, LOL. Win/win, remember? :-D

Soulmate, no way am I contacting him in any way, that was a joke. I said what I had to say, now he can take his badly bruised ego and get on. What he doesn't understand I wasn't being rude, I just no longer feel anything for this man friendship or otherwise. I am sure your right I doubt that I have heard the last of him. I'm sure he is already in rebound mode trying to figure his next move. The sad truth is he doesn't want me, he just can't stand the thought that I wasn't setting around waiting, and now someone else has replaced him. He thought I would play this wounded victim, I would sit at home and have my pity party while he was out picking up with this one or that one. Then when that runs its course and he has no one in the picture well I will go back and sweet talk my way back into her good graces. What he didn't know is I never started playing the game, I just picked myself up and moved on. Well I am proud to tell you I am not in traction, I did manage to ski a bit on flat ground without falling. The newbie is quite a skier, dose very well. He told me I am going to teach you how to ski, before its over. Does this mean he is planning more trips to the mountains. Tonight he took me on this carriage / sleigh ride under the stars, its like a tour, but in the night atmosphere was very romantic.

(Okay. Didn't realise it was dry humour, you forgot your 'ha-ha' or emoticon.) No, I don't think you were being rude, either, despite neither did you go gently. Maybe on the cusp of rudeness in any other context. But this wasn't any other context, was it. And like I said, he needs to hear those home truths, just in case it does make him think twice with the next poor woman. Seriously, aside from anything else he did, if any date *ever* dared outwardly rubberneck like that, I wouldn't care where we were, I would get up instantly and leave in abject disgust (with a very loud 'Bleeeeuugh!', knowing me). Same goes for any bloke trying to hold his Sword of Damocles over my head by telling me it's over, when it isn't, and not contacting for a month- A WHOLE MONTH!? (You wanna dare play with fire by pretending it's over, *let alone* keeping the pretence going for that long? THEN OVER, IT IS, try having a bit of adult self-control and thinking before you speak, pal! :-p) So in actual fact, you were well within rights to have been ruder, is my point. But my next point is that *IF* it happens again - this time, whether that's how you genuinely feel or not quite yet, you show him the TRUE opposite to love: indifference. There's the (in)difference that makes ALL the difference! Try, 'Sorry, no milk today, thank-you', before instantly closing the door again. Worked for me, once. ;-) And, true, he didn't ever want you - *enough* (key word) - not in your current, confident state as made him feel 'not man enough'.. not unless he could have pulled you down a peg or two first. (Because what does confidence attract? LOTS OF MALE APPROACHES = COMPETITION.) *Thereafter, having failed to* would have produced the case of his coming back to butter up his 'safetynet gal' because he was at a loose end again. When it's the real thing, akin to winning the lottery, and you can tell (which everyone can - innately), you don't eff around if you can help it; that simple. Same as you wouldn't reject or leave lying around in a public place a suitcase containing £1m. There's no arguing with that, is there. ******** It does sound like Newbie's planning more trips, yes. Ohhh, nooo, you poor thiiing, not *Aspen* again?! LOL. The sleigh ride is reminding me of my first few weeks with Mr Soulmate. Midnight moonlit beach picnic. I went all gooey... *particularly* at the fact it was slightly on the amateur side (soggy sandwiches), thereby proving it was not some stock repertoire act thus player tactic. He's pulling out all the stops, your guy. Treating you like a lottery win. Excellent! You've stepped onto 'my' path. :-) I take it you're finding yourself responding befittingly commensurately each time?... not letting everything that happened with Evel Knievil (et al from the past ex pile) affect your reactions?

Soulmate: OOPS, yes I forgot the haha, sorry. In reference to his rubbernecking, yes it did "P" me off, men will be men, but they don't have to do it right in front of you. Had I been home I probably would have left but I was 3 hours from home, in a strange town, LOL, not the best place to walk off and leave. Having him do that in front of me, told me one he wasn't serious about me, or he wouldn't have been so bold about it. Then 3 days later he adds the ex to his contacts, after he told me she was to not call or text him. That didn't settle with me, especially when I saw it, I don't think he figured with as many contacts that he had, that I would ever find out. However, good old Facebook on a computer flat snitched him out with that little pop up box. He knew he was busted, he couldn't get out of it, so he turned the tables on me. When it all comes down to it, I didn't lose anything, but a rubbernecking sneaky cheat, he was the one that lost. I feel sorry for any woman that gets involved with him because hes going to do the same thing to them, unless he gets one that is a complete pushover and will turn a blind eye to what he does. I told him upfront when she started texting when I was there, that I didn't play the ex game, I gave him his out right there with no problems, he was the one that didn't want it. This is a man that you can't even discuss a problem with, automatically this is supposed to be drama free, well sorreeee, I don't have a zipper on my lips I am going to say what I don't like. Then he runs off and pouts like a baby. Sorry, but I raised my kids. The newbie, has went over the top to make this trip very special in every way, it really has been a great time. Yes, he has shown me that I mean something to him. I know its not a fake act, that he is being truly genuine. Midnight moonlit beach picnic, that sounds like it would make you gooey, I have to say the carriage ride did me to. We only have tomorrow left here, but it has been wonderful. Evil Knievel (WHO)????, LOL Bahhhahaha.

No, CADS will be cads. Real men use their emotional health and maturity to try to put paid to that habit altogether or at least make the effort to be discreet about it, so discreet that you literally have zero inkling. And even then it's either purely out of visual curiosity about PEOPLE or, better yet, them comparing other women unfavourably with you because they know they're already with the best (and it's just nice to get visual confirmation). Diff/diff. The intention behind an act is everything. Three hours. Try 12, with a migraine, a kid in tow, mobile out of action, not speaking the lingo, unsure of whether there were sufficient funds on the card to allow two plane seats home, etc. ;-). So I imagine it was more to do with the lack of a frame of reference by which to judge confidently. ...And then he 'pulled in the other woman'. *Now* you had a clear frame. Et - voila: dumped (constructively, in reaction to your act of confrontation). Nowadays is what matters. So what would you do 'today' if - strictly hypothetically-speaking, obviously, given how he's already showing copious diamond symptoms - Newbie did exactly the same in that exact same theatre at that exact same relationship tenure? I'm presuming you wouldn't wait around to see 'if/whether' and - distance from home be damned? No woman CAN get involved with Evel. Because he uses behaviour like that specifically to keep them at arm's length or, if they're too close already (whether because she's overly into him or is getting under HIS skin), to push them back to where he feels SAFER... rejection and heartbreak not possible. He's a commitmentphobe, not an actual idiot. Were he an idiot who truly didn't know how to behave in company, he'd probably be long-term unemployed. Raised your kids already, LOL. In fact, quite a *lot* of men flood, flounce off and pout like a baby. Who knows - maybe Newbie will have a spit-the-dummy-and-throw-teddy-out-of-the-pram moment one day? That's not the bit that matters. This is: that with a reasonable bit of Time Out they see sense again, apologise (in such a way as shows they know what they're apologising for), beg your forgiveness, ask or agree to a debrief and second session at the renegotiations table in order to sort out the original cause for clash a deux, and either henceforth instantly keep a tight lid on all such childish reactions or, if it's a very hard-grained habit, make the endeavour to show they have it in them to wind it down to nothing or negligible with just a bit more practise (and continued faith in their relationship with you). So, yes, it was the repeating it followed by 'turning it around on you' part that made all the negative difference. (I mean, his ensuring only days later that you knew he was back in communication with his ex isn't exactly "sorry for the rubbernecking", is it. It in fact says, Scr*w you, take it, bicz!) But, inadvertently or not, he led you to as well as primed you and your overall vibes up for Newbie so - not 'who', but, "THREE CHEERS FOR EVEL!", right? :-) Or three cheers for Fate for having used the chess piece called Evel to manoeuvre you across the giant chess board to where sat Newbie after just having dumped his own ex. Whichever. Three cheers is the point. :-) Are you looking like you've been sleeping with a coathanger in your mouth yet?...smiling so hard your face hurts?

Soulmate sorry for the delayed reply, the vacation was amazing, a very beautiful place to visit with many things to do and see. I couldn't have asked for anything nicer. The newbie went over the top to show me a great time while we were there. The newbie and I became much closer. The time away was something that was really needed, he brought up the ex and asked how I felt about him. I told him plain out, I have no feelings for him whatsoever, friendship or otherwise. I told him I gave him two chances and he dumped on me both times. I saw a side of him I do not like or even want to know. I said he is everything that I can't stand. I asked him why he was asking about him. He said well were are going back home and I wasn't sure about what may happen when we get back there, if you still had any feelings for him, or if there was a chance that you may want to try and work out your differences. I said NO there are no feelings or any chance that I want to work out anything with him. He is in my past, and that is where he is staying. I told him, you are nothing like him in anyway, you are kind, decent, and respectful to me, I can't ask for anything more. I told him what I want in my relationships is honesty and mutual respect. I think that is a must for both parties involved. Then I did the stick thing and told him this is what I still have to learn about you and these are the things I love about you. Wow, it works, you are so wise. He said well I don't want this to end, I told you before I loved you and I still do, nothing has changed. When we get home I want to take things to the next level and see what happens there. I said I think that would be great. Now the bad part when I got home, the ex had left several letters on my door. Today, I got a vase of flowers delivered, I thought they were from the newbie, but instead was from the ex. I gave them back to the delivery person, and told him, give them to someone that looks like they could use some cheering up today. I don't think he is going to go away easy. I called his phone, private number of course, and told him, I have nothing to say to you, that I haven't said already. I would appreciate it if you would quit sending flowers and do not leave anymore messages on my door. I am done with you, I have moved on, and I suggest you do the same.

Re 'the stick thing' working (you silver-tongued devil, you, LOL!). Doesn't it just! I just believe there's no need whatsoever for misunderstandings and misinterpretations as can cause needless hassles and complications, if one takes the thought and trouble to communicate important but complex concepts as precisely as possible. After all, if you don't and are verbally half-a*sed, you're left with the need to go back and re-do it properly, anyway, so what's the point in scrimping or cutting corners if it just ends up creating MORE work? Give me prevention rather than cure, any day! ...Although you want to try being precise with a Frenchman, half of whose diction was taught by those for whom it wasn't even their native language (military base abroad), with the other half his own, self-formulated creole, built on from said erroneous foundation... That's fun, LOL (- I like a huge challenge, me :-p), like an endless version of that famous Abbot 'n Costello sketch, Who's on First Base? For prime instance: 'We out of bread so Ah go to ze shop get more', he'll say. I'll say, 'Okay, thanks. Have you still got the credit card? Ooh, and could you pick up some apples and butter while you're there, please?'. He'll come back with, 'No no, I go *yesterday* ...on mah way back from working, ...put ze bread een freezer' (he means fridge)... so then have to correct him with the correct tenses, vocab and semantics... for the Nth time ('English Teacher for hire, packet of bread per hour' :-p). So now imagine what would happen during discussions containing contentious and/or emotionally complicated issues, both of us under-fire of heightened emotions! 'But you said / But what I meant was' tends to feature quite heavily from both sides during the debriefs. "Suuuuch fun!" (-name the sitcom) But he's literally, no bull, the best, most upstanding man I've ever met so he's absolutely-completely-utterly-butterly worth it. :-) ...And that's ALL this ever boils down to, is it not: whether they think you're worth the time and trouble to do X, Y and Z and vice-versa. BER-BOM! ...speaking of which: So, he's making an effort... But WHAT is making the effort? And, more to the point - why? (Talking about your ex now.) Let's re-cap: 1. He tries to put you on the back foot, lowered self-confidence- and increased clinginess-wise (i.e. attempt to control AND fishing for compliments via non-verbal reactions), by deliberately, overtly rubberneck-ing during your date. 2. That doesn't work well enough so days later he pulls in the other woman/ex (by deliberately TELLING you she's contacted). 3. That proves inadequate, too, because you state your complaint too calmly and controlledly. 4. So he pulls her RIGHT in - on Fakebook. 5. But nor does that work, because you go and pull it all up from under the table, slam it down and demand to know what and why it is (when what HE wanted was to keep it there, un-articulated (and hopefully un-articul-ABLE)). Cornered, bang-to-rights, without a cover story to-hand, and you still overly keeping your cool for his liking, he gets around it as well as ups the same stupid ante by dumping you ...as we now see, mainly for effect only (but win/win if he can find someone like you but *'better'). 6. That doesn't work because you take him at his word and say, FINE!...and then in the next 2 weeks fail to chase him (like they these days do, the fools). 7. So he ups the ante again by leaving you (cough!) dumped for a further two. 8. That doesn't work, either, but now it's been too long not to get told instantly to "do one!" if he tries to call (which 'climbing down' he doesn't want to have to do anyway since it'd defeat his object). So enter loud drive-bys intended to provoke your dialling finger. 9. Nope, no call. And he's seen the constantly-visiting vehicle sat in your driveway [no pun intended ;-)]. 10. ...Drives by some more, just to be sure. 11. NOW he's not content to leave things to provocation because suddenly it's additionally about taking on another man and winning! Enter the card (that you ripped and binned). 12. So, next, he does The Doorstep Challenge...JUST as Newbie is 'coming home' from work. Gosh, what a coincidence (not) (told you he'd been doing even more drive-bys - and casing, note - than you thought). 13. Didn't work - backfired, in fact - so he tries the "pityy meee, mummyyy" tack via petulantly recriminatory texts. (Know your trouble? You're just not gullible and manipulable enough! :-D) 14. No effect, no sympathetic, 'forgiving mummy' results (well done!). So now we're up to letter-ZUH - PLURAL (what did they say, btw?), followed separately by the Interflora vase of flowers. Oh, look, he's finally cracked. Gosh, how suddenly seemingly non-difficult that was (pff!). Makes you wonder why it TOOK him so long, doesn't it? Me, I'd have responded, 'If you want an arm-wrestle over who's more handsome, virile and lady-friendly with my boyfriend then why don't you just write TO HIM and LEAVE ME OUT OF IT? Or just ask me - I'll tell ya?!'. But nope. Because - know this: he knows that his supposed love-pestering is going to be unsettling Newbie *majorly*. And that, now, is his main objective. If he can't have you, NO-ONE CAN! Dog In Manger syndrome at its most transparent. He knows or has worked out you were away 'for a dirty weekend'. How to un-do all of Newbie's good work. But, uh-oh... 1. 'I would appreciate it if you would quit sending flowers and do not leave anymore messages on my door. I am done with you, I have moved on, and I suggest you do the same.' 10 out of 10 for the sentiment and appropriate affect, only... 2. "I called his phone" SHE CALLED ME, SHE CALLED ME, HAAA-HA-HA-HAA-HA! (whoops) So what happened to 100% ignoring? 2 out of 10. Damage-limitation time, appropriate for the scupperage of your original chosen strategy: next call (and I'm betting that's his next method), LET NEWBIE PICK UP AND SAY, '*YES*, IT'S OFFICIAL: MY D*CK'S BIGGER THAN YOUR D*CK. NOW EFF OFF' [CLICK]. Dick is literal *and* euphemistic for 'I know how to treat a lady'. Ex'll get what it means, no worries. PS: Aspen was amazing because your new boyfriend is amazing. :-) PPS: "When we get home I want to take things to the next level and see what happens there." He's gearing up to ask you to move in together. Tip: Don't. If he wants marriage, he can do it properly, all of it, in the right order. If it's too soon, then he can bide his time because you've got your whole lives together, ergo what's the hurry. Give it a year at least (or be the fool that rushes in where angels fear to tread, repenting at your leisure... you know the drill, right?). If you see no need for marrying (and why would you if you don't plan to have a kid together) then ask either for a civil or private ceremony (just the two of you...and the rings). But still wait a year. At least. It's a human test-drive. It's no good trying out a 'car' on only sunny days, along straights, well-slept and fed, little traffic, etc., etc. You've got to try it out through the hairpins, in sleet, snow, hailstones, road slicks, this speed, that speed, all gears, overtaking, maybe a deliberate wee prang or two to see whether the car can take it without exploding,... And he's got to do the same, with you. I could be wrong, though. He could be gearing up TO do it all properly! So how would you feel about that - his wanting to - leaving aside the 'when' issue?

Soulmate, first thing yes I texted him but I did text private number so he still does not have my phone number, so there will be no call backs or texts. Yes I may have messed up there giving him some bit of false hope. I was hoping to make one last attempt at letting him know I am no longer interested in anything from him contact or otherwise. Everything you have said and how you listed it has hit it dead on. I can see his motives and actions as they have played out. His problem was I didn't take the bait on each attempt. Which now he is grasping at straws because someone new is in the picture. I guess panic mode, how do I get him out of the picture and her back in mine. That there is no chance of, being with him is a waste of my time and energy that can be better spent somewhere else. I knew way back 7 months ago, that if I reconciled with him it would only be a matter of time that it would happen again. Why would I want to put myself through that again, I did it 2x. That gave me the strength to keep pushing on forward and left no contact in tact. I have moved on I don't want him in my life and he needs to understand that and go away. You can only play the games with someone so long and it pushes them away for good, that is what he did with me. I am not the jealous type, I don't get upset if the men I date talk to other women. The ex calling at work, and texting while I was there, and then the addition to his contacts. To me was wrong, you tell someone I took care of this problem your the one I want. I didn't get upset over the rubbernecking and throw a fit, I ignored it, even though it was very much out of line and rude to me. I tried to be reasonable, I gave him the chance, but when he added the ex gf to his contacts, that was my last straw. Had it been the ex wife, it wouldn't have bothered me, I have contact with my ex husband and we are good friends now, you have to be when you have kids together. However, that does not apply to an ex gf, or the live in shack rat as I referred to her as. What she did was feel out the situation, because she was wanting back into the picture. I wasn't stupid by any means, I am a woman I know what women do to get men back. I felt him adding her to his contacts would only encourage her to further her attempts to get back in the picture. I still believe I was right. Now my intent of the text to him, I want his attempts to get back in my life to stop. I don't want flowers or messages from him. I have a new man in my life and I don't want anything to cause problems with him. Things are great between us and we seem to be very happy with each other. I think this will only get better every day as long as the ex doesn't keep popping his head into the picture. The newbie, doesn't want to move in he just wants to take things slow and see how things develop. I made it clear that I don't rush into anything with both feet, we need time to get to know one another on a personal level, the friendship has been there for years. However, we have never had the opportunity to be around each other on a personal level. That we need to take slow and see how it develops. He agreed with me fully on this, so there is no rush in to moving in, like with the ex after dating for 2 months. There is no talk of marriage at all, just an exclusive we are dating each other relationship to let others know that we are a couple now. I can live with that. The ex when I didn't dance to his tune on moving in, boom, I was dumped, which completely confused me, you ask me to move in and dump me in the next breath that comes out of your mouth. What kind of crap is this? That would really make a woman want to go home and pack her stuff and head for your house. Not this gal. That was my first sign that he was not firing on all plugs. I told him if you were really sincere in asking me, when I said we needed to wait awhile longer, you would have said okay we can wait. I honestly think he wanted a roommate to help with expenses so he could buy his Varoom machine. The way things were having that payment plus everything else would eat up all his extra fun money for the month. Why not ask me to move in that gets him what he wants all the way around. I have found with him that everything he does he has an ulterior motive for doing it, if it benefits him, OKAY. However, if doesn't your kicked to the curb so to speak. That is not a stable relationship for anyone to be in. He needs to take this experience and set down and look at his faults, because yes he has many. Then he needs to figure out a way to change himself or he will continue to be an miserable lonely old man. He is trying to regain his youth by dating women ranging from 10 to 20 years younger then he is. I was the same age as him, so I am older and more wiser then these other women hes picking up with. They are impressed how he throws out the big sum of his yearly salary, I wasn't because I make just as much money as he does. I don't need him to take care of me, I needed a companion and someone to share my time with. He failed desperately now he needs to tuck his tail between his legs and move on. Through the years I have grown into a very independent woman, I am self supporting, I don't need no one to take care of me. I have raised my kids, put them through college, and managed to buy my own home in the progress. Now I am a middle aged woman, I want a companion, someone to go places and do things with. I am not looking for a marriage or a live in partner. However, I have no objections to either if its the right person for me. That is something that has not been a priority for me. My family was my priority, now they are grown and living there lives, now its time for mom to live hers. I don't know if the newbie is the right man for me, but he definitely has the qualities of someone that I am willing to invest my time and energy to find out. Time will tell.

"Yes I may have messed up there giving him some bit of false hope. I was hoping to make one last attempt at letting him know I am no longer interested in anything from him contact or otherwise." Yes, I understand that, and have already long established you want nothing more to do with Evel, but, if tantamountedly slamming the door in his face wasn't enough to make him cease then what on earth made you think a similarly politely hostile phone message would suddenly suffice? You've got to stop and think a bit more next time (or consult with Newbie). That's the type of over-wilful, spoiled baby merchant he is: HE CAN'T BE TOLD, particularly by a woman (hence my suggestion you let Newbie 'deal' with him if/when). I mean that IS Newbie's new job - protecting you and his relationship with you from all outside threats - is it not? Plus it would be proof positive in terms of gelling with your recent verbal reassurances. I didn't let Mr Soulmate go round to ex's house to 'have a quiet word'. But that's because ex didn't have the outrageous chutzpah to actually turn up at my house (!!!). If he had, then, OF COURSE I'd have handed over those reins entirely, because when it involves THAT kind of degree, and nothing you yourself do proves effective, it then becomes Newbie's right (as well as 100% effective reassurance of zero feelings or regrets). The alternative, equally 'boxing clever' approach (and safer one to try if you don't think Newbie could temper himself once face-to-face with Evel and might get himself arrested for assault) is to ring Evel in the presence of Newbie to tell him that if he doesn't cease all contact attempts, with immediate effect, no matter how clever and subtle (not) he believes himself to be about them, you'll report him to the Police for harrassment. Either/Or is the way to turn this problem, this lemon, into a positive - lemonade for Newbie and, as a rapid knock-on, yourself. But - oh, it'll get better every day, ANYWAY. You'd just rather the path featured less old, mankey chewing-gum that you have to keep stopping and plucking from under your shoes, eh. Less irritation. That's all. Why aren't you the jealous type if ever someone tries to walk off with your hard-earned suitcase full of One Million Quid? ...Or have I just answered my own question, i.e. just not jealous with blokes that didn't cooperate enough to let themselves get really under your skin and vice versa? ;-) Oh, I see, by 'next level', Newbie means in becoming Steadies and working more intensely on the bonding? That's funny, though?.. because usually they phrase that as 'concentrating on the relationship', whereas I'm presuming 'next level' were his actual words? Or does 'next level' mean declaring In A Relationship on Fakebook and to everyone in his social circle? Whichever... it would seem that Evel's done you a bit of a favour by showing Newbie how sought-after you are, wouldn't it. :-) But enough's enough, the lily needs no further gilding, so we're back to letting Newbie step in or threatening to involve the Police. "I have found with him that everything he does he has an ulterior motive for doing it, if it benefits him, OKAY. However, if doesn't your kicked to the curb so to speak." An exploitative Narc was behaving like an exploitative Narc? No waaaay! LOL ;-) "I am not looking for a marriage or a live in partner. However, I have no objections to either if its the right person for me." Good on ya! That's the ticket: never say never (unless you like serious egg on your face the minute you later back down). Open options = Happy Human Bean. PS: Yes, time always tells. However, there are indicators. Or symptoms, if you prefer. :-)

"If he had, then, OF COURSE I'd have handed over those reins entirely, because when it involves THAT kind of degree, and nothing you yourself do proves effective, it then becomes Newbie's right (as well as 100% effective reassurance of zero feelings or regrets)." Actually, that's not true. I'd have been so furious at someone trying to ruin my beautiful, definitive relationship - the one I'd damn well prayed for my whole life - I'd have knee-ed him in the phee-phoos....accidentally, of course (losing my balance from the doorstep and putting my knee out to save me), and if THAT hadn't worked, then handed it over to Mr S. (A mad gunman broke into my house, held his gun to my head and made me type that.) (He's gone now, though.) (Phew!)

:-D

Soulmate I know I goofed, things are going so great for me I don't want this trash to mess it up. I should have never sent him the text, smack my typing fingers. I hope it doesn't encourage him more. The newbie is a very soft spoken gentle person, in all the years I have known him I have never really seen him mad at someone so I don't know how he would really react in a face to face run in with the ex. The ex on the other hand when we were young would welcome confrontation with someone. That is just crazy we are all middle aged adults that should not act that way. I mean haven't we grown up. I know the ex is a NARC and he is used to having his way. There comes a time when you don't always get what you want. I can see him doing his best to try and ruin this for me, not because he wants me, but because he can't stand the thought of someone else taking his place. He resigned his place in my life, it is what he wanted. I guess I was expected to sit and boo hoo for the duration until the time came for him to want me back (another words when he has no other option). That is disrespecting to me and I have never allowed anyone to treat me that way. I am putting all my efforts into this new relationship. I talked to the newbie about it, I told him about the messages on my door, the flowers, and my actions. I told him I may have caused more drama by texting him to go away that there was no interest in him any longer. Newbies attitude seemed good, he said no problem we will deal with whatever comes this way, he said I doubt we have seen or heard the last from him. He said but do not text him anymore, that will only encourage the situation. I agree with you both completely. I could see him on the other end of the phone when he read the text, saying yesssss she contacted me I am getting through to her now. Thank goodness I was smart enough to block my number so it didn't show up on the text so he still cannot contact me at all. I have always gotten along very well with his family I don't want to do anything to cause friction among our families. The last thing I want to do is have to involve the law and file a complaint. However, if it comes down to that I will do what I have to do. The status he has on his job, would not make him look good if this were to happen so I doubt that it will reach that point. He would never do anything to mar his squeaky clean image, with a harassment charge. That job is what gives him his prestige that big salary is what he uses to get your attention, so he will not jeopardize that in any way. The jealousy I have never really been the jealous type. I have seen many relationships destroyed with jealousy and all it does is creates problems that can be otherwise avoided. I try to put trust into anyone I date until there comes a time when not to trust and that is if I have proof looking me in the face that says this is not right for you. Which then its time to get out of the relationship. This is how I felt when the ex texted when I was there, and then he said, yes she called me at work. He didn't offer that info to me until she texted when I was there, makes me wonder how long he was in contact with her during our relationship. I didn't get mad. I just told him I will back out of the picture if she is what you want. To me, all of this could have been avoided had he been honest with me. The friendship could have remained intact and we both could have went back to our own lives. This is not what he wanted, so he then turns around and violates my trust in him by adding her, after he said he told her to make no more contact with him. Clearly he wanted to string both of us along. I was open and honest with him. I clearly told him I don't play the ex game if she is what you want just say so, but I won't be in a relationship where the ex is sticking her nose in where its not wanted. She wanted him back plain and simple, I'm not playing that game, take him you can have him. He showed me his true colors at the concert when he did his rubbernecking in front of me, I didn't get jealous, but I did start exploring the idea that this was no relationship for me. This behavior is not acceptable to me, it is rude, disrespectful to the person you are dating, and clearly shows the other person that your just not that into them. I could see him if I had done that while we were out. How would he have reacted to me if I had said would you look at that hot man over there and spent my night gawking at everything that passed me by. He would have blew up if I had done that. When I started dating as a young girl my mom set me down and said these are the things you don't do in a relationship. Don't try to make someone jealous and don't be jealous of someone this will only cause hurt and ruin your relationships. Do not play games with whomever your dating, this will also cause problems and hurt feelings, if you no longer want to date them tell them and move on. Do not ever cheat, if you don't want someone end it before moving on to the next. This will spare all feelings to those involved. I have tried to instill those in all my relationships. When I'm done with something I say I am done with it, I move on. There is no game playing, scheming, or anything deceptive in any intentions I have. I just go my own way.

AAARGH, I'M BLINNNND!!! (- you forgot your carriage-returns). Nah, stop panicking for nothing. You haven't 'goofed'. And yes, you were very smart to 141 before you dialled. Plus actions show you and Newbie are pretty damn solid already, as well as in the right, healthy ways. I repeat - mankey old chewing gum stuck to the soles of both of your shoes. It's just that, what with Newbie having pulled out all the stops, including speeding up and condensing your fledgling relationship with his parents (for absolutely no particular future reason at all that begins with 'm', LOL), this whole situation could be invaluable for your getting to reciprocate with an almighty, encouraging gesture, the type that goes indelibly into the 'lbum'... not least one you could perhaps one day fling back at him during whatever future power-struggle phase argument if it happened to feature his complaining (as they do, the minute you prove the main issue groundless) that he was the one who did more of the really meaty reassurances work than you back when in your first few months ("meh-meh!"). Not that he would, just - OPTIONS!... preparing the path ahead. 'Oh, yeah? Well what about when I let you take charge of seeing off my ex, when most women don't even TELL their new boyfriends?', you can say. That would shut him up in a heartbeat *and* put the smile back on his face, wouldn't it. (I think REALLY far ahead, me, does it show? LOL) But the other point of this is BOOMERANGING the ex's shennanigans... making every spanner he tries to throw into your works miss you two and 180 back onto him, but meanwhile having left a sprinkle of gold dusting! Two for the price of one: Evel gets the smile wiped off his face and transferred onto Newbie's. As it should be. Newbie may be soft-spoken, but - and never MIND what he says now with his mouth - everyone has a cracking point, even him. He can just be quietly firm and scathing and/or condescending instead, can't he. If he *does* want to see off the dragon, I mean. He might not, he might think you're handling it brilliantly compared to most, from both ends? But it would say a lot to him if you at least OFFERED him that courtesy and privilege. The offer being on-record is the point. That's all. Just a handy lemonade-making recipe. As for this: "I have always gotten along very well with his family I don't want to do anything to cause friction among our families." Yeah, well, Evel should have thought of that, shouldn't he. So clearly he doesn't share that sentiment. Anyway, 9.5 times out of 10, you tend not to have to actually follow your threat of contacting the Police through. Plus, like you correctly say, the Narc will take great pains to avoid tarnishing his carefully crafted upstanding nice-guy public image. So you can't lose, anyway. (Whittling already, LOL. I can see... you really, really, really, REALLY like this chap, don't you? :-)) "That is just crazy we are all middle aged adults that should not act that way." HA-HA-HA! Oh, be serious. "If it's not madness, it's not love" - famous French philosopher whose name I for some strange reason can never bloomin' remember. But I did hear that French owner-maitre'd from "First Dates" Restaurant quote it in the first series (do you watch it?). This is LOVE (for your first times, I'm betting). Until you reach that point of complete mutual security (in terms of trusting one another's commitment, if not life and its grand pianos falling from high-rise apartment windows and out-of-control juggernauts doing 110 in a 30 limit), you two are, for a while, going to get quite familiar with curling up in the foetal position, sucking your thumbs and wimpering, 'I WAN' MY MUMMYYYY!'. (Don't let that sway you, though... there's far more joy and magic than upset.) And before said stage, you two are going to start talking and acting like giddy toddlers - chase-me, chase-me, tee-hee.... hewow oo, I wuv oo/I wuv oo too... etc., etc. (HOPEFULLY only behind closed doors, LOL.) Adults, my a*se. I've never met one YET! Why - have you? Can I have their number? Anyway, back to Newbie versus Evel: note the wordage: "[Newbies attitude seemed good, he said] no problem *WEEEEE* will deal with whatever comes this way, he said I doubt *WEEEEE* have seen or heard the last from him." Oh, you're in, alright. You're more in than you realise, missus. Cuz that tharr Freudian slip ov 'iz be TEAM / ONE ENTITY-talk, that be, arrr... And the top one. The 'toppest' one you can get. And he said it not once but TWICE in the one breath. ;-) So this, my advice, isn't about cause to worry or panic, it's about a giant, golden opportunity that could gum-proof TODAY you guys' shoes tomorrow.... IF you strike whilst the iron is hot. Have a longer thinkipoos about it. If you decide against - no worries...Bit of mankey chewing-gum never killed anyone. PS: You haven't seen relationships destroyed by jealousy. You've seen relationships destroyed by jealousy TAKEN TOO FAR or used wrongly (and, no doubt, by FAILURE to show any jealousy when warranted). All emotions are turbos. Without romantic-sexual jealousy, we'd have no internal 'hard shove in the back' for getting off our bums and taking measures to try to protect our most supremely valued and valuable relationship, meaning, the human race would have died out or turned literally into Sodom and Gomorrah by now.... back in the trees - LITERALLY Swinging - along with the hairier apes where we'd have proven we still belonged. Oh, and don't think how you've felt and behaved in the past has much bearing on how you'll feel and act THIS time round. Because this time round is a completely new ball-game. And that's the other point: sometimes - the key word in life - jealousy and showing it, mutually, equally, always respectfully... never too much, never too little (- Suess)... can be a GOOD thing. Try this one re your mum's experiences and your own: Right Qualities (yours), WRONG RECIPIENT!

(Tsk - 'album')

Nope, not French - Spanish (yikes, no-one tell my late dad!!!): Pedro Calderon de la Barca, 1600-1681. The chef in First Dates is definitely French, though. [crawls under desk]

Soulmate, I am sorry for the late reply, my parent has been ill and in the hospital, and it has consumed a great deal of my time. Well the Newbie was right we hadn't seen or heard the last of the ex. This time he showed up begging and pleading with me his undying love. You know we have been friends for 40 plus years, and you would throw that away. I said Ummm, Sorreeee but I was not the one that threw that away, you did, you dumped me, blocked me, and have had absolutely nothing to do with me for the past 8 months. Now you think because you have nothing better to do you can waltz in and play the victim, its not going to work. I said things are as they are by your choice alone, I told you upfront that I didn't play the ex game and if you wanted her to say so we would go back to being friends. You were the one that did not want that. However, you violated my trust by telling me you took care of this and then you turn around and added her to your contacts. Why did you do this because you didn't think I would ever find out. Well learn your programs before you go being dishonest with someone else. I said I haven't heard from you in 8 months, not one peep out of you. Now I am in another relationship and you want to show up on my door step and think you can just come right back in where you left off. Newsflash, that will never happen. I said I have found someone new and we are very happy together. I wish you would show me the same respect that you showed your ex, when she dumped you. You don't understand I don't want you. You are not good enough for me. I don't want your friendship. I don't want anything from you period but for you to go away and leave me alone. I said if the newbie and I broke up tomorrow there would still be no place for you in my life. You had your chance and threw it away not once but twice. I told you the last time if you did it again I would be gone for good. You made that choice, now the choice is mine, and I choose to not have anything to do with you. How much clearer do I have to make it. I am done with you. I said drive past my house 50 times a day, its your gas your wasting because you will never be welcome here again. I told him, out of respect for our families I didn't want to involve the law but you are leaving me no choice, if you come back again I will involve the authorities and have something done to keep you away. He said I don't understand how you could do this to us. I said are you so shallow, you think I did this, no you did this, just like you destroyed your marriage with your cheating. Then you sit back and blame her for what you did. You did this in both cases. The problem with you, is you are so in love with yourself that you cannot see what you do to other people. You hurt people and think you can just stroll right back in their lives by saying I am sorry. Well sorry doesn't always cut it and it doesn't give you a free pass to do as you please. I said I told you before you are not welcome here. I told you to leave. I want you to leave and don't come back, as the last time see yourself off my property. I went to turn to go into my house and he grabbed my arm and pulled me around before I could say anything Newbie was out the door. He said, take your hands off her arm now. He told me to go in the house, so I did. Let me tell you when mad he does have quite the temper. He put the ex in his place. He told him you have been asked to leave and not come back. She made it clear how she feels about you. Why don't you go away. He said she is no longer your girlfriend she is mine. I would appreciate it if you left my girlfriend alone. We don't want you coming around here and if it continues, I have an uncle that is an attorney, I will have papers drawn up to keep you from harassing her any more. He told him, if you cared so much about her then why did you treat her like she was nothing more then a piece of trash? He said now you were asked to leave, and I would suggest you don't come back. Hopefully, this will work, it has been a week now and have heard nothing at all from him. I told the newbie how much I appreciated him doing what he did. He said, I told you if the time came WE would deal with this, I am true to my word. I don't know, time will tell.

(Well, even if you'd been timely it wouldn't have helped because I still haven't got time to rhymes-with-go-kart!) Really sorry your mum's poorly. How's Newbie been doing on the 'rock' front - has he been letting you lean on him? Normally I'd say it was too soon to expect that kind of generosity from a boyfriend but, then, this isn't exactly something light and tentative, is it. Especially with a common thorn-in-the-side pulling the two of you even closer ("Cheers, Evel!"). Undying love, my arse. He knows you're happy with Newbie. He knows you weren't happy with him (who would be, the way he behaves?). Does he really expect anyone to believe that he can't make full use of a suitcase full of £100 notes unless and until such time as he's lost it and then gone TWO THIRDS OF A YEAR without it before laughably tardily commencing a campaign to win it back? Someone ought to tell him that when it's the real deal, you don't stuff up in the first place, not to that degree, because you KNOW it's the real deal. And no-one sane would dare play Russian roulette with their once-in-a-lifetime win, FULL STOP! So who the heck does he think he's kidding? Don't get me wrong, if he'd done this right off the bat after only one or two weeks max. of ending it, THEN we'd be talking sincere campaign and a guy in agony. But we're not, so we're not, and well done you for still standing 100% firm on that. [insert Gloria Gaynor's "I Will Survive", starting from 'And so you're back, from outer space'] Anyway - "I said if the newbie and I broke up tomorrow there would still be no place for you in my life. " - that's the one...that's the £6m statement RIGHT THERE! Glad you thought to get it in. And this is the £3m - "I told him, out of respect for our families I didn't want to involve the law but you are leaving me no choice, if you come back again I will involve the authorities and have something done to keep you away." As for this? - "He said I don't understand how you could do this to us." I wonder if he was being deliberately asinine and galling, just to try to reel you into an argument to see how over him in actions you really were? If not then he's *actually* stupid. "I said are you so shallow, you think I did this, no you did this, just like you destroyed your marriage with your cheating. Then you sit back and blame her for what you did. You did this in both cases. The problem with you, is you are so in love with yourself that you cannot see what you do to other people. You hurt people and think you can just stroll right back in their lives by saying I am sorry. Well sorry doesn't always cut it and it doesn't give you a free pass to do as you please. I said I told you before you are not welcome here. I told you to leave. I want you to leave and don't come back, as the last time see yourself off my property." Ooh. Ooh, I say! (Sorry, I read as I go rather than 'down in one', so I wasn't expecting that.) "I went to turn to go into my house and he grabbed my arm and pulled me around before I could say anything Newbie was out the door. He said, take your hands off her arm now. He told me to go in the house, so I did. Let me tell you when mad he does have quite the temper. He put the ex in his place. He told him you have been asked to leave and not come back. She made it clear how she feels about you. Why don't you go away. He said she is no longer your girlfriend she is mine. I would appreciate it if you left my girlfriend alone. We don't want you coming around here and if it continues, I have an uncle that is an attorney, I will have papers drawn up to keep you from harassing her any more. He told him, if you cared so much about her then why did you treat her like she was nothing more then a piece of trash?" EVEN BIGGER 'OOOHH'! 'Hey! (hey!), You! (you!), I think I like y'er boyfriend No way, no way, you do not need a new one...' :-) And this is better than telly! :-D But - seriously - OOOOHHHHHH. Be still, my beating heart, this guy is FRUIT LOOPY over you!!! Excellent. "Hopefully, this will work" Hell, if it doesn't, Evel should be donated to medical science! Frankly. PS: I wonder how come Newbie was out the door and making him take his hands off you, so instantly like that? Not EARWIGGING from just behind the door, was he, hmmmm? ;-) But that's more like it, eh? Eh? Eh? Eh-eh-eh-eh-eh? I should cocoa.

Soulmate thank you for you thoughtfulness on my mother, she is doing somewhat better now. The newbie has been like my rock during this, he has helped me any way he can as well as be there for me to lean on through this. You asked if the ex was trying to get me into an argument, or if he really is that stupid. I honestly believe he is that stupid, and he doesn't feel he has done any wrong at all. The more he does, just shows me that he is a complete total ass, and has no feelings of remorse for anything he does to people. The statement, How could you do this to us. This just totally dumbfounded me at the time, I was thinking how could I do this to us. Really are you kidding me. Seriously he thinks he has done no wrong. You know back when we separated, if he had contacted me within the first month. I would have more then likely forgiven the matter and tried to work it out. However, 8 months later, I don't have the same feelings for him anymore, is this so hard for him to comprehend? That I no longer want ANYTHING to do with him. The whole honest truth is when I look at him, I really get ill. He is so sickening, that I can't even stand to talk to him. This should tell him, to go away, there is no compassion in me for him anymore, not even as a friend. You cannot treat people in the manner he does and still expect them to welcome you back with open arms. I do not want him as a friend or anything else. I don't know if he was this way when he was young, or if something seriously went wrong with him the older he got. This side I have seen out of him, just turns my stomach, he is so overbearing, and rude, and hateful. The things he is doing is out of spite, because I have moved on and he doesn't want me to be happy with someone else. He can't stand the fact that I didn't sit around and pine for him the past 8 months. While he was out picking up with anyone who will have him. I have noticed a pattern he doesn't stay with anyone very long, I was the longest relationship he has been in since his divorce. I would assume he has pulled the same act on the others that he did with me. Jumps from woman to woman, while he strings the last along with a glimpse of false hope to reconcile. This is not for me, I wasn't looking for a serious relationship, however, I was still open to it, and it has happened. Yes, I am thankful that the ex has shown me what kind of jerk he really was. Now I have someone that I have share a mutual respect with and the relationship is getting stronger and better as the days pass. I have much to be thankful for that the ex was an ass, and allowed me to see how great the newbie really is. Yes, he was listening on the inside, I asked him to let me handle it, he said go ahead I will watch from in here. He didn't but in until put his hands on me, then he was there immediately. When he was finished telling him, he left and didn't look back. He said you were doing fine but I won't stand around and watch him put his hands on you in anyway. He said it was better to stop it before it escalated farther. He said he may as well know that I have no intentions of backing out of the picture. This is his loss, and he may as well accept it and move on. He truly cares for me I do believe, and he shows me daily how much that is true. We haven't heard from in now in a almost a week, not even the trusty varooom going by, so maybe he is finally getting it, that I am no longer interested in anything with him. One can only hope. I am prepared now to take the next steps if he does, to keep him away completely. I hope it doesn't have to come to that but if it does so be it.

Glad your mum's on the mend, and even gladder for you that Newbie is indeed proving he has wide shoulders. I mean, considering you don't need his money or anything else, those sorts of qualities are the ones you need, aren't they. So, assuming he keeps that sort of attitude up, that's one massive tick for him against 'sound emotional supporter' on your mental 'test-drive' checklist. And another for adult-like confrontation ability. As for Evel's attitude: (Bleugh!) yes, galling. Even I reared up all the way from 'over here' when I read he said that. It belongs in the 'you made me do it/you started it and I didn't do anything' category. So childish and irresponsible and, more to the point, grossly unjust and hypocritical (the realm of the unintelligent). "I don't know if he was this way when he was young, or if something seriously went wrong with him the older he got." Probably, as I said before, caused or exacerbated by the trauma of his divorce. But if he'd try that nonsense with you then it's not too far a stretch of the imagination to presume it's how he regularly behaved towards his wife, and same for his 'one rule for you, another for me' attitude. But if his warped attitude *is* temporary, he'd be best quarantining himself in the meantime, instead of spreading it around via the dating market. As for this: "Jumps from woman to woman, while he strings the last along with a glimpse of false hope to reconcile." Lilypad-leaper, I call it. Common post-divorcal behaviour. But I'm glad to see you've joined the dots in terms of why Evel was 'sent' onto your path to 'waste' your time. Have you found out yet what Newbie was going through in his own life whilst all that was going on at your end? Did he have his own 'lady Evel' to contend with as has made him extra-appreciative of you and he having crossed paths? "he said go ahead I will watch from in here" Ahhh. :-) And another Tick! in the Great Wingman box, note. "He said he may as well know that I have no intentions of backing out of the picture." I agree with him, it was a great opportunity to tell you- I mean, Evel that (heh-heh-heh). So yes..., Evel has proven mighty handy for a chocolate teapot. Yes, I think you can relax, I'm sure that's finally done the trick. Keep keeping me posted. We like a happy love-story on here. :-)

Well, I hoped it would do the trick, but it seems he is still not going away. Today, I would assume I was being followed he showed up every where I went. I guess you can't get to me one way, oh we will try another. The store, gas station, and the same restaurant while I was eating lunch with a friend, he and his buddy come walking in. He set and glared at me from across the room. I guess what now we are going to play the intimidation game. This was not a coincidence. I just do not understand why men or women will destroy a relationship and not want that person, until they have moved on. Then its like they cannot stand to see you happy. This man has wanted absolutely nothing to do with me for 8 months, and now that I have found someone new, is hell bent to destroy this for me. This just makes no sense, why people play these games with someones heart and emotions. I have never played games with anyone in my life not even my husband when I was married, when the marriage was threw, I packed my stuff and took my kids and moved on. I didn't want to look back. There was nothing there anymore. The same with the ex, there is nothing between us anymore so go away. I don't want to play this game, I am happy, content, and very much satisfied with the man in my life. I guess it is true that misery loves company, he is miserable with his life so I would assume he wants to see me just as miserable. He doesn't want me he just doesn't want anyone else to have me. I have contacted a lawyer today to see if there is anything I can do. I told him, that he followed me every where I went, he said its a public place not a lot you can do as long as he doesn't bother you. I told him about the incident at my house. I was told that since I didn't call the police at that very time, there is nothing I can do unless he does it again. So another words, I have to put up with this crap until he does something to me. This is outright stalking. I told him that I have changed all the phone numbers to stop the calls, he said no proof it was him, you should have put a tracer on your phone. Just seems to me, that there is nothing to stop him, unless he physically does something to me. Which that he won't do, he is not going to draw that negative attention to himself or make himself look bad in anyway. He will do just what he is doing, he will just keep showing up and letting me know hey I am still here. This is disturbing, it makes me wonder just what is going on in his mind, is he becoming dangerous, obsessed, can he be violent. I don't know I haven't been around him in many years. This is just stirring up a lot of questions for me that I don't have answers for. I have never noticed him following me, but up until today I didn't know what he was driving other then the motorcycle. I did some checking today, he is in fact still in a relationship with this other woman, so why do this to me. I realize she is just a replacement, his stalking me tells me hes not interested in this woman. The newbie and I went out and I bought cameras and put them on the front and back of my house now I can see exactly how many times a day he is coming by, and if he is in fact messing around my house or vehicle. Now it will be on camera, so it will be documented proof. I just don't know what else to do except sit and wait to see what he is going to do next. I am really PO'd over this. I couldn't have made it any more clearer that I am not interested in him. When he dumped on me, I moved on. Why can't he do the same? The newbie suggested that maybe he should stay at my house for awhile so we are not alone at night until we see what he is going to pull next. I think its a good idea. With my mom in the hospital that leaves me alone there by myself at night. He said you may not think he is dangerous but you don't know for sure. I don't want to take that chance. I agree I don't know what he is capable of. The newbie said he has been rejected now, you can tell he is obsessed with this, he drives past several times a week that you know of. Following you from place to place today. The other day he actually put his hands on you, he said yes he didn't hurt you, but I intervened before he got that chance, so you don't know again what he could be capable of. I basically feel like he is manipulating my life now with the things he is doing. I am not going to take this crap lying down. He wants to cause me problems, fine go for it, I welcome it because its going to stop one way or another. I never went through this with anyone I have dated. He is no exception.

This type of behaviour is him feeling a bit like he owns you. He is checking on you, watching you, and letting you know he is there. I think your new boyfriend is right. This is the start of something that could end very dangerously if you don't take it seriously. Having your new boyfriend with you is a good idea because then you are not alone, but it may also illicit an aggressive response from your ex. This problem seems to have been going on for months now, and is not normal. Casually stalking your ex for a few weeks after a break up, seeing if they have moved on, and if you have a chance to get back together is pretty normal. But he is taking this to the next level, and is showing signs that are worrying. The cameras are a good idea, but I would also think about taking things further with police, and not being alone etc.

(Scoozie delay) I don't!..believe it!, to quote Victor Meldrew. Damn right it's not normal, not that that's the same as uncommon, regrettably. PS: Thanks mucho for filling in whilst I was up to my neck, AnnieBlue. :-) "Well, I hoped it would do the trick, but it seems he is still not going away. Today, I would assume I was being followed he showed up every where I went. I guess you can't get to me one way, oh we will try another. The store, gas station, and the same restaurant while I was eating lunch with a friend, he and his buddy come walking in. He set and glared at me from across the room. I guess what now we are going to play the intimidation game. This was not a coincidence." Course it wasn't a coinkydinky... no such thing, even *if* we didn't pre-have so many dots to connect. Question: Expand on 'glared at me', if you please? Are we talking a hostile look, a resentful-stroke-betrayed look (the "how could you!?"), or did you mean simply, stared, transfixedly? Second question: Have any other "coincidences" occurred since you typed that? Well done for having sought legal counsel. I doubt he'll hurt you, though (or that he even wants to). His is the behaviour of the uber-coward. He competes with women, can't/won't take other men on (hence tailing you wherever Newbie wouldn't be present)... and you've 'stolen his ego'... which he wants back... and that means getting you to dump Newbie and date him again (courtesy of his refusing to let you forget and get over him)... whereupon (if you agreed) he would wait until you finally felt safely ensconsed and then BAM!, chuck you all over again, this time unceremoniously. Revenge is sweet. Specifically, a Harbibo. :-p He's a child. Also, you have to take into account the following: No man with any modicum of intelligence, if he had malintent, would take a friend along for the ride. Think about it: subpoenaed witness. And since Evel can't even bond lately/ever with a *woman* then I doubt he's Bromance material. Get what I'm saying? This friend would not go so far as to lie on legal record for Evel, were he called to give a witness statement or testify. So I say that's a good indication that he's simply trying to, so to speak, spend as much time standing in front of you, waving his arms in the air and saying, 'Look-at-meee, look-at-meee, not Newbie - meeee!'. BUT!... You can never be too careful so my advice is to go in-person to your local cop shop and play dumb in terms of having had any prior legal advice. At least then a record of the situation exists which will make things easier "if". Now here's the science bit... I said up there that he didn't love you *enough*. The truth is, he did. But right from the start he had a huge dollop of fear blocking his ability to register and express it (as well as affecting his total choices and behaviour as affected you to point of Splat!), meaning, he may as *well* have loved you only X amount as opposed to XX. Does that make sense? If not, the analogy, using a motorway, would be: he's the M25... has 3 lanes... but there's been a massive RTA involving an articulated lorry (and which is at best going to take 2-5 years to clear). Now how many free lanes does he have? Answer: one very overcrowded one if he's lucky. Not a lot can get through, let alone straight enough, direct enough, smoothly enough, quietly enough and within an acceptable time-frame. Better sense? The question is always this: "So he loves me. But WHAT loves me?" Answer: A man that fearful of ever again being vulnerable to another? A romantic-version chocolate teapot. He is simply not healed & hard enough to risk allowing another woman to hold his heart in her hands (because - his perception - look what happened when he did), whether his fear is temporarily reactive to his divorce or whether 'secretly' he became like that from a very young age (in which case, God 'elp 'im!). The other woman is for... making you feel jealous/competitive (either/or); for how's yer father on-tap and for free; a likewise free 'escort' for Sat nights out or on the sofa, and the like; for his self-sense of being healed(-"no-really-I-am,-World!") because no trauma is too big for *unbeatable-him*, doncha know; ditto for keeping up his confidence by way of feeling provably eligible and attractive enough to the opposite sex to *be* a partner (and to more than just as a lucky one-off); so that he's one of a couple (dinner parties, office dos, family occasions, weddings,..), etc. Who knows, maybe one of his reasons for wanting a relationship was so that, via cobhabitation and the sharing of all such bills, he'd not be quite as much out-of-pocket were he living alone, paying them all himself for some pokey little gaff because the lion's share of his salary is for child and spousal maintenance payments? Certainly, that could be said to fit with why he tried to rush you, right? Lots of reasons... ******* Just read the camera bit... Excellent! See? You don't need my advice. ;-) But, then, saying that - personally, I'd do that *and* the visit to the cop shop (why do things by halves, and all that). "The newbie suggested that maybe he should stay at my house for awhile so we are not alone at night until we see what he is going to pull next." :-D Win/win plan (kudos to Newbie for melding his genuine concern *and* canny opportunism). "I think its a good idea." :-D Yeah, I'll bet you do! See? Evel is a lemon and lemons do make the best LEMON-ade. LOL "I never went through this with anyone I have dated." Did you not? Then you're either luckier than me or somehow less gorgeous (;-)) because, me, I've had suicide threats 'AN E...VERYTHING! (...Or maybe - more vexing? LOL) ******** So, anyway, what's the latest?

(Tsk!) *HARIBO*.

Anniblue thank you for your advice, at this point I really don't know what to expect from him next. I am not scared of him, I do not believe he would hurt me. I have moved on and wish he would do the same. I think this is a form of saying hey, I am not going anywhere. I am being cautious, and not going places alone right now.

Soulmate thank you again for your advice. I honestly have never had to deal with this type of behavior from anyone I have dated. I am very attractive and do not look my age at all, so its not a case of I am a troll. Whenever my relationships have ended they were done. There was no threats, no suicidal threats, nothing of any kind. I have had them call and want to work it out, but when I am done, I am done. We end on good terms they go their way and I go mine. This is really Peeing me off more then scaring me. I don't think he would be violent towards me in anyway. I don't think he wants me to move on either. I do believe you are exactly right the other women were to make me jealous. The fill in for occasions that he needed a date. Now that he knows I have someone in my life, and its really great. He is realizing that I am not there waiting while he is off having a time with his new fling. He knows the newbie was interested in me before we started dating. That may be why he is so determined to interfere with this relationship. The newbie is quite handsome, has money, and he knows he is definite competition to counteract everything he threw out there to get my attention. The material things he has are not what impresses me, you would think the ex would have realized that I was not in a relationship with him for what he had. I refused to let him pay for everything when we went out. He didn't like it, but I said tonight I pay or we don't go. I don't think it should all be a mans place to pay for every date. I totally agree with you about the moving in, he wanted a roommate with benefits to share the expenses, because he couldn't afford to pay for everything and get his precious varooom machine on by himself. Like I told him I own my house why would I move out and pay rent makes no sense to me. I also, said we needed to give it a bit more time to see if that is what we want. This bent his ego, right now he was upset, here came the first round of being dumped. This one only lasted a month and he was back. I told him after that time, that if he did it again there would be no more chances with me. I also, told him I don't think you were asking me to move in for the right reasons because if you really cared waiting a few more months wouldn't have been an issue. That told me he wasn't asking me for the right reason. The newbie has moved some stuff here and has been staying at my house until we see what is going to happen. He said he doesn't like the idea of me being alone, with him acting the way he is. Maybe he has other motives to, maybe he is afraid that he might get to me and change my mind and reconcile. Trust me on this that will never happen, whether I am with the newbie or someone else. The ex is beating a dead horse on that issue. We went to the police and I did file a report, however, again I was told, every where I went were public places and as long as he doesn't bother me he is doing no wrong. I explained he showed up at my house now two times. They said did he leave after you told him to, I said yes they said then he has done no wrong. I said but following me every where I went, coming in the same restaurant, and setting on the other side watching me that is not stalking. I said this is just crazy no wonder so many people are harassed and stalked on a daily basis, because no one wants to do anything to help them stop it. It is on file now that I have reported that he is following me etc. I haven't been followed by him since that day, I would assume because he is at work. He can't just take off when he wants. However, he is still driving past the house, of course you know the drill, you hear him coming a block away. Now the newbies truck is parked outside my house all night long. This is probably not going over well with him. I do feel better having a man here just in case he would try something. Doubtful, but like you said you can't be to cautious. I have no doubts that he loved me, but he has issues that he needs to resolve before he could ever truly love someone the way you should. Every time an issue arises he runs like a baby instead of dealing with them head on and working it out. No relationship will ever work under those conditions. He promised after the first break up he would work on this, the first time the issue with his ex girlfriend came up he did the same thing. I just don't honestly think he is ready for any type of relationship. I suggested maybe he needed to go talk to a therapist and work through some of the things he was dealing with, I told him, I am not saying something is wrong with you in anyway. There are some things that if you set down and talked to someone about them, maybe you could get past them. He informed me he was fine. I said was only a suggestion. I talked to my pastor when I went through my divorce, just having someone to vent to relieved so much stress off me, that I felt renewed. It gave me the strength to move on and do what needed to be done for my children. The newbie has been so supportive for me in every way. With my parent in the hospital, which she is getting stronger everyday. This man is so caring and helpful, he really has been a godsend to me. I am grateful to have him as a part of my life. He has been my rock through this so far. I don't think he has any plans of bailing on me anytime soon, I think this one is in it for the long haul.

Shannon: This is still not only going on but esculating? Your first post was Dec. 31 back in 2015.It is now almost March 1, 2016. One of your original posts said, "I don't feel threatened that he would hurt me." He is hurting you. In addition to a lawyer, you might also want to contact a private detective. As I mentioned in one of my first from near the start, you might want to look at that again about what I said concerning that, a PI could knock on his door and might shake him a little bit. It might make his girlfriend shake, if he's living with someone. You might want to get some of these processes started earlier than you have, for you may be wasting time. My wars went on with one neighbor for four years, with another neighbor for six years and with another neighbor for 8 years. The first and last have dropped out, the 6 year one is still active, though dormant at the moment. You can ask the PI, what you might do. He or she can give you some ideas, which you might not have thought of on your own, which is one reason for calling for such help earlier than you might have considered, so you can get some programs going. You need evidence like the phone messages, like his following you, like his riding past the house. Ihe PI can give you tips like where to place the cameras. Finding a good PI can be as difficult as anything else. The first one I contacted didn't didn't want to take the case, which is his choice, the 2nd one didn't either, the third one did and had experience with my state's law agency. He was willing to help me, but the offender gave up the harassment through a mixed up situation which the offender thought was meant for him. So make some calls to the PI's offices and get started. The cameras, get those going also, cause it might take you some time to learn how to work them as far as saving data. I'm not tech minded, so I'm not good at that, at all. Also, are you going to get motion detector spotlights, that will come on when someone approaches,so the cmaeras can pick the up at night. Those two work in unison. The cameras can't see anything if there is no light pointed from your house towards him if he approaches the house or car. It took me years to figure this out. I'm giving it to you in 5 minutes. You need evidence. This guy won't back down with anything less. For instance, the 2nd neighbor scattered the lawn my mail from my mailbox, and stole my newspaper several times. Well, I had a security camera pointed at the mailbox, and my front drive. I had him on video tape, but I never thought to check the tape on the days my mail or newspaper was missing. How stupid is that? He would have to take the morning paper and mail at daylight, which the camer could see, plus I have a strong city street lite which the camera would have seen him at night. Am I stupid? I think in a way I didn't want to think of him stealing my newspaper and trespassing. A private eye can tell you these things early in the game so you might not miss as many chances to get evidence. He or she can also give you encouragement that you might not can give to yourself. Information, the right equipment and encouragement and support is probably what you need now, and which a good private eye can provide. For instance, I didn't even know the simple thing of motion detector spotlights to go with the camera. So this guy walks onto my property, breaks my front windshield, and I don't egven have one of my 3 security cameras on my car, and have no spotlights that come on. I didn't have any good advice about that, I didn't have a private eye. And this guy had been coming after me for almost the full of the 4 years, and I wasn't prepared. The PI can tell you these things, he might also recommend which security camera person or comp[nay to get. Let him or her coordinate things. Your ex thinks this is a man vs. a woman. Get a PI and balance the equation. The first nock on the door from a male or from an assertive would will do that. But what the PI needs is evidence, call one and find out how to do that. Everybody thinks these bad people are all on TV, or a long way off. I've leaned that's not necessarily true, and now watch True Crime TV shows with a different perspective, and realize, those people are more prominent than one might think.

PJVL9 I have been to the authorities it is on record now that he is doing these things, unless he actually bothers me there is nothing that can be done as of yet. The following me to public places, driving past my house, I was told it is a public street and place. He is doing no wrong, however, we all know what he is doing, he is not stupid by any means. I have had cameras installed my new fella actually uses these cameras for hunting, so he knows how to operate them. As far as phone calls all the numbers have been changed so he can no longer contact me in any way, he has been blocked on my FB account now so I no longer receive any messages from him there either. This was done back after my first post on here. I am not afraid of him, but he is really ticking me off. I have a new man in my life, want nothing to do with him. He hasn't wanted to even speak to me in almost 8 months now. His only interest is that I have moved on and not sitting around pining for him. I bruised his ego, by rejecting him, he can't handle that. The things he is doing I don't need a private eye to tell me, I know what he is doing he flaunts it right in front of me now. He is not hiding, because basically out of sight out of mind. He wants me to see him, he wants to get in my mind, then maybe, just maybe he feels he may still stand a chance. WRONG!!!!!! You have 3 neighbors that honestly sound as if they hate you, I get along very well with my neighbors. I think you are the one that is in dire need of help, they sound as if they want to kill you or do you some serious bodily harm. My ex wants the newbie out of the picture, because he can't stand the fact that I don't want him. What would he do if I wanted to reconcile with him again, he would be fine for a month, two, and then boom he would turn around and do it again. This type of relationship is not for me. What I have now makes me very happy, why would I even consider giving up on someone who is there for me and appreciates the time we spend together. The ex, may as well go play this game with his other fling, because I am not taking the bait. I have taken steps to put a stop to this, and it will stop, just how long do I have to put up with it before he finally realizes there is no hope in a reconciliation with me and goes away.

Everybody has set the world record for not believing anything I say about these neighbors. If I had not had a difficult time and came to realize, this is how people act, I might be disbelieving also. But I do know how they act. There is a poem called "If" by Ruyard Kipling. Here are a few lines: If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you. If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too. Or being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good or talk too wise. Yours is the earth and everything that's in it, And--which is more--you'll be a man, my son! I have you on my "but make allowances for their doubting too," list. You're also on my "you're a challenge" list. You wrote: "You have 3 neighbors that honestly sound as if they hate you, I get along very well with my neighbors. I think you are the one that is in dire need of help, they sound as if they want to kill you or do you some serious bodily harm." They don't want to kill me, they want to destroy me. If they kill me, they would go to jail. The 1st one is a psychopath; the 2nd one was sex abused, and wanted to inflict on me (a male) the same amount of pain that was inflicted on her, by a male; the 3rd is anti-social and has anger personality disorder, and wanted to move into my house; the 4th is the son of two alcoholics whose mother was sexually abused (and hates males, including me) and whose father is anti-social, because he was hit upside the head with a board by his father when he was 5. One of the 4 has moved. The 2nd of the 4 has quit attacking because he thought a situation (from person 3) was intended for him. The 3rd of the 4 people hasn't attacked in almost 3 months, and I have built up defenses that I hope hold. So I'm down to one person. Him, from 4 person at the start. That's pretty good, That's progress. The 4th person, who started the mess 8 years ago, spoke to me yesterday as I walked past his house walking my dog. ""Hello, Bill," he said, in an extremely calm voice. Well, that's half of him. The other half of him is a pathological mess. I said, "Hi, Mr. Smith." As Hellen Keller said, "Life is either an exciting adventure, or it is nothing." As you know.

PJVL9 I never said anything about not believing you, I have no reason to doubt what you say, any more then you would have to doubt me. I honestly think I would find a new neighborhood to live. I think I would sell my house, cut whatever losses I may incur and get out of dodge, so to speak. It doesn't sound like a safe environment for you.

"I think you are the one that is in dire need of help, they sound as if they want to kill you or do you some serious bodily harm." Do you? Even before he provided further clarification, I can't say I got that from what PJ wrote. One couldn't get more childish and petty than resorting to furtively stealing ones neighbours newspapers, let's face it. It's not like the neighbour poisoned his pets or anything. And, more to the point, neither could one better demonstrate ones sense of utter *powerlessness*. So it's a bit of a stretch to suppose it were the run-up to a main intention to do 'serious bodily harm' or commit murder. That'd be a bit like suggesting a bank robber would limber up for the big day by, weeks and months beforehand, nicking packets of chewing-gum from his local newsagents, LOL. Also, for all we know, that neighbour might be unable to afford his own newspapers and so chooses nicking PJ's as an actions BOGOF - buy one (show of hostility), get one free (a home-delivered 'luxury')? So let's try to keep this in perspective and not get all melodramatic, please, peeps ("I've told you a ZILLION TIMES not to exaggerate!" LOL). Nobody, as far as I can see, is in any physical or even psychological danger, albeit, yes, there does seem to be an awful lot of highly childish pestering going on. PS PJ: Going to suggest you lay in wait for the delivery boy so that before the neighbour even emerges, you deposit a nice lump of fresh, slimy dog-poo right underneath the paper. Then when said obnoxious neighbour hurriedly scoops it from the grass or patio... ("Whoops, how did THAT happen, tsk, those pesky neighbourhood dogs, always defecating everywhere, what can ya do, eh?", LOL.) ****** ...Which (pestering) brings me back to your ex, Shannon. I'm going to change my mind, or half-change it, now I've read the very telling data of how manipulatively he responded to that rejection, plus your confirming he actually did have quite considerable money pressures at point of asking (and most likely, still). His response being to tell you the relationship were terminated flies completely in the face of making the proposal in the first place, in terms of urges that stemmed genuinely from love and desire being behind it, note. I mean, what man would effectively ask to promote and cement a relationship to that meaningful extent as a supposed demonstration of yearning-burning desire to be closer to you and, rather than appreciating the put-off of gross prematurity thus vowing to just bide his time a bit more before trying again at some more befittingly later date - basically turn around and say that in that case he was terminating the entire relationship? Que? "I love you, wait, no I don't"? What - just because you won't commit what is by anyone's standards too soon? I'd say in that case, it was *not* love that was solely or sufficiently his motivation and more 'I need a lodger and since I fancy you anyway/you've got money, you're the obvious candidate'. If he loved you enough to want to live with you and (his view) simply sod the orthodox protocol re timing, worth a try and all that, then he would have loved you enough to be INCAPABLE OF LETTING YOU GO, ergo incapable of risking throwing you away via you calling his bluff or, worse, choosing to throw you away. Stands to reason. I think maybe originally/initially he loved or wanted to love you, but quite early on concluded you were too risky (as in, made his heart too vulnerable), felt resentful over the fact it wasn't going to be as plain sailing as he'd assumed, so switched his intentions towards just squeezing as much juice out of you as he could for as long as he could... use you to re-elevate his financial and social status, then (or simultaneously) use you to make the ex jealous. And now he's *still* using you, as some sort of means to prove himself to himself and life and logic wrong (and/or as a barrier to intimacy with his new gf). Because obviously, if a man can 'lure' you from a position of unattached and, from that triumph, get the typical X portion of ego-boost then imagine how much greater the boost if he managed to lure you from the position of contentedly or even excitedly *attached*? Obviously double. So that shows you more palpably the extent of his ego hunger (a hunger you didn't even play any part in creating). So you declined the proposal and, because you did, he thought if he just stabbed you in the heart and ran (or did a good enough acting job at it), you'd end up calling him and backing down ("okay-okay, I'll move in!"), sacrificing your principles for fear of losing the entire relationship. Whereas, that shouldn't have *been* your enforced choice to make. Highly manipulative. Highly used to getting his own way by hook or by cruel, pressuring crook. "Do it or the relationship gets a bullet in the head!". But in light of this degree of mercenariness plus his incredible persistence lately despite getting the very opposite of encouragement plus needless and avoidable humiliation he's caused himself (no doubt because he's used to women who cave at the slightest 'pinch'), I'm now concluding he has self-esteem and -delusion problems that pre-date his marriage and divorce, which the result(s) of trying to date before ready/recovered thus seeing nothing but rejection after rejection, have exacerbated two-fold. Stunted as his norm, now DefCon-ed on top. Yup - fits. ******* Yes, Newbie probably has more than just protecting you as his agenda. But at least even his second agenda is, we can tell, based on honourable, twosome-success-centred intentions alone. It's called wanting to see you more and wanting to gain a little sampler of what living with you will eventually be like (not trying to get someone to subsidise his lifestyle, for goodness' sake). Diff/all the diff in the romantic universe. But for the sake of the bonding process, i.e. protecting it in terms of facilitating its smooth-sailing by keeping everything in the right order and to the right degrees - going by the book, basically - my advice would be to ensure it *is* temporary, a preview, only. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread, and all that. I'm sure you would because patently you're a sensible, intelligent thus cautious type, but - just saying anyway. PS: PJ has a valid point about consulting an expert, even if just for a brain-picking session over coffee and biccies at your house one day soon (which would probably cost anywhere between £100-200, depending on how many hours). To know a stalker, hire a 'stalker' and all that. You'd be surprised what cunning tips and tactics, both practical and legal, they can suggest that would never have occurred to you in a million years and which the Police would never tell you. It's just good to know what options you have "in case" or, since I doubt that anticipation's even necessary, even just to increase your confidence and leave you perfectly chilled about it all to the point where it doesn't even annoy you any more?

Soulmate thanks again for your advice. Now PJ, this is not the first post to my thread that he has made, in the past months he has went into detail of the things his neighbors are doing to him. Which have made him flee from his home and stay else where, because he himself, said he feared for his life. That he was scared to walk in the daylight so he left at night for fear they would see him, and come after him. That is not being over dramatic. That is a problem. I think he needs to be cautious, they have went as far to damage his vehicle and property. Much different then stealing a newspaper. I just think he shouldn't let his guard down with these people. It appears to me to be more then one neighbor he has problems with, from the posts that he has made on my thread. I do value his input. I think he has a lot of experience dealing with similar situations, granted his is the neighbors and not an ex at this time. However, his ex was very manipulative and he gave me advice on how to deal with it. The advice he has given me is good advice, and has helped me to open my eyes to the type of person that I am dealing with here. Lord knows I need all the help I can get, because I am in unfamiliar territory here. I have not had to deal with anything like this, not even from my husband when I divorced him. When I said I was done, he went his way and I went mine. Two years down the road he decided he didn't like the outcome and called me to see if maybe we could work out our problems. I said you should have talked to me two years ago. I told him your not good enough for me. I told him you had your life and me and the kids were not a part of it. I said, I am sorry but I think you need to stay where your at because there is no place in my life for you now. Now the ex, yes I completely agree with you, he didn't ask me to move in with him for the right reasons. I do believe he cared about me a great deal, but I think the main reason he asked me to move in was simply he wanted a roommate with benefits to share the expenses so he could afford the almighty varoom machine. I had reasons for not moving in, yes I thought 2 months was to soon, I asked that we give it a few more months to see how things were going and if they were still as good as they are now I would consider it then. I told him outright I wasn't saying no. I was just asking for a little more time, to see if that is what we really wanted. I wouldn't move in his house anyway, as I told him I am buying my own home why would I go pay rent there and make my house payment too. This has been my home for almost 20 years I have no intention of moving, unless its to buy me another house. When he went from moving in together in one breath to terminating the relationship in the next. I knew then I wasn't being asked for the right reasons. I told him this when we reconciled after a month a part. We came to some agreements at that point. I lived up to my agreements but he didn't from his end. His end was to be able to sit down like an adult and talk about something without it automatically being drama and going off the deep end. I told him if we can't sit down and talk about something that is bothering either of us, then this is going to cause drama. I told him communication is a very important part in any relationship, without it no relationship will last. I agree with you, I think one of the major attractions to me was I make good money, so I was a great candidate to move in, so he could fund his bike fund. My added income in his household could sure free up a lot of his money to buy the things he wants. When we went out, if he bought supper tonight, then tomorrow I bought supper. I don't feel comfortable to let someone pay my way completely, I guess that is my independence coming into play. I have always taken care of myself and my kids and never depended on anyone but me to do it. I am the same way with the newbie, yes he has money, but I won't let him pay for everything either. I am just not comfortable with that. I do agree that you have to let a man be a man, or they feel less of a man. I also think that you have to show a man you appreciate the things he does for you by returning the favor as well. There is no doubt in my mind that the ex cared about me, love no I don't think he loved me, if he did he wouldn't have tossed me aside two times for basically no reason. He might have gotten upset but he would have wanted to work it out if he loved me. Instead he moved on to someone else, I would assume someone that he figured could help him pay the rent. Now that he knows I have moved on and I am in a relationship with someone else, the ego can't stand the rejection, so basically its okay that he rejected me and stabbed me in the heart as you said, but oh no she will not reject me. I think that is why he is being so persistent. Don't get me wrong. I cared for him a great deal, and his friendship was very important to me, since we were kids. That is a long time for any friendship to last. I won't be a doormat for him or anyone else. I am glad I made the choice of saying no to him, because I got to see his true colors. A side of him that I didn't know existed, but reared its ugly head the first time I said NO, or disagreed with him. He said to me that the ex was his good friend and I was nothing, that completely did it with me. I said I am nothing, and his words was SHE is my good friend. I said well I have only one thing to say, and he said what is that I said take your barfly and shove her as far as you can, and when she dumps you in two weeks DO NOT call me, because as of today, there is absolutely nothing left between you and I not even friends. Like I said before, he doesn't want me now, he just can't stand the fact that I don't want him. This is a blow to his big ego. You take a woman that has learned to be independent and she doesn't need him to take care of her. I have no problem with bruising his ego, because I am used to getting what I want to, because I am the one that got me what I wanted. I never depended on anyone but me. The manipulation game won't work on me. I don't need him. That is the difference, I am not needy and clingy like the ex that started calling and texting. That is just not me. I think two people should take care of each other and love and support one another for the right reasons, not to just pave t Growing up in the environment he did, had to affect his self esteem and confidence. Which would make sense why he boasts about how much money he makes. The one thing I remember he said I don't think I have done to bad for being a high school drop out. I said no you have done very well of yourself and you should be proud of your accomplishments. The newbie being here is giving both of us a chance see each other more and we are both getting a sample of what it is like living together. It nice for me right now, I feel at ease with him here since I am here by myself right now. My parent has been put into skilled nursing unit for at least the next 3 months. I am sure the ex definitely will be insulted when he sees his car is here everyday and night now. Especially when I said no to him. The newbies motives are completely different then the ex, he doesn't need a roommate for monetary reasons, so I know the reasons he is here is because he wants to be here.

Soulmate I think I have went into meltdown mode with him. I got a call from the ex, (all my numbers have been changed). I was in complete shock when I picked up the phone and it was him. He said oh are you shocked to hear from me. I said how did you get my number. He said I can get any number you change, and I said how did you get my number. He said I went to instant checkmate, and for a small fee, I can get every phone number you have would you like for me to list them for you. I think the air was knocked out of me. I went to all this to keep him from being able to contact me and he goes online to some site and gets every number I now have and he quoted each number. This is complete BS, that a site is allowed to disperse you personal info. He was reading off my personal business like I was setting there telling him everything about myself. I said well, your that desperate that you would go to the trouble to pay to get my phone numbers. He said this is to let you know I can find out anything I want to know about you and your boy. I said you know what I have nothing to talk to you about, so why don't you just go away and leave me alone. I told him, have you no dignity that you would stoop to this low just to harass me? He said this in not harassing you. I want to have a conversation with you, because you will not even talk to me. I said because I have nothing to talk to you about, would you please just go away and not contact me again. I said if you keep this up you are leaving me no choice but to involve the authorities. I told him I have moved on don't you get it. I don't want to date you, or talk to you, or anything that involves you. I said the sound of your voice makes me ill. I really don't find anything appealing about you at all. Why would you want to keep doing what your doing? He gave the golden answer. He said because no woman is through with me until I decide we are through, you don't reject me. I said you know what, I didn't reject you. You made the choice to dump me like I was nothing, you chose the barfly skank. You know your good friend. This is what I think about it. I think you were in contact the whole time you told me that you put a stop to her calling and texting. I think you were sneaking around talking to her. What was the point to sneak around. I told you I would back out of the picture and let you go, with no hard feelings. You did not want this but instead you sneak around talking to her. I said the talking to her doesn't bother me, its the sneaking. The dishonesty, yes you lied to me. You assured me that you took care of the problem. I said maybe you didn't feel it was a problem. However, go ask any woman you know what they think of an ex calling you at work and texting you at night when I'm there. They will tell you the same think, she wants back in your life. I am a woman I know what women do and so do you. The naive game isn't going to work. I told him your only problem was you didn't think I would find out that you added her to your FB contacts, but good old FB snitched you out. You called me names, said you didn't trust me. You didn't trust me? You violated my trust when you added her after you assured me you were not interested in her in any way. Trust goes two ways. I told you I could prove what I said, you had no desire to listen, you were busted you were looking for a way to turn the tables on me. When you couldn't the next thing was boom the relationship is terminated. Well as you can see I'm really not that tore up over it. I think your the one that can't handle the break-up. I haven't drove past your house, but you have driven past mine for the past seven months. You have called and just sit on the line, won't speak. Do you know how many times you woke my mother up with this stupidity? She is not well then to be phone harassed by you is completely unacceptable. That is why I changed my numbers and I am telling you flat, you start that crap again and I will involve the authorities. I told him, so whats the deal you have no one in your life right now, so what you decided you would let me crawl back to you. NO THANKS!!!! I said lets get one thing straight, when I decide I am done, I am done. There is no negotiating this. I don't want you. You don't decide anything for me. I didn't reject you, you opted out of this relationship, I merely obliged you in every way. I said now I am done with this conversation, I don't care to hear anything you have to say period. I am hanging up and I would suggest that you lose my numbers. I hung up on him. Every hour he has called me on the hour, and laughs, and says you think you control me. Think again. I hung up I got on the phone called my carrier and requested a tracer be put on my line for harassing calls. I was instructed to contact the police to file a complaint, that they would give me a number for the complaint. Then I called them back. I now have a tracer put on my phone. Every time he calls, I record the time of the call and then I call them into the phone company. He messed up today, now I am going to have the proof to have something done with him. I think after the next week. I will be rid of him, knock on wood.

Shannon: How do we get into these situations? 1.When you said in your previous post to me, “I think you’re the one in dire need of help." "I interpreted that as, “I think your (mean) neighbors are OK. I think you are the one who needs (psychological) help.” It was kind of a verbal ink blot test, as in, ‘what do you see in that sentence.” I saw the worst. I saw you taking the side of my mean neighbors, and saying it was all my fault. I almost blew. But my lithium held my anger, and instead I replied with a poem about being patient with people who think you are an idiot, as in “When all about you are doubting you (stay clam).” Then I read where you said above, “ I think he needs to be cautious,” for even my own son has said to me when I discuss this problem with him, “Aw, I’m sure these neighbors are a bunch of good people,“ or something like that. I was so use to that reply, that I interpreted yours as being among them. I do appreciate your help also. 2. When you asked him, why is he bothering you, you said he stated, “He gave the golden answer. He said because no woman is through with me until I decide we are through, you don't reject me.” That’s kinda spookey. I told you he was some kind of a nut, a narcisisst. I think you ought to be treating him as such, as person who can’t accept rejection. If you did something like move, he would like that because he would known he’s cauing you some sort of troube. If you don’t move, he knowns where you live. I know all of this because I’m in the same situation. If I move, my neighbord can’t bother me. If I stay here, I get to stay here, but he can bother me. If I move even temporary, he knows he has me on the run and he;s like an animal chasing his pray. If I stay, that has its problems. It’s like I can’t do anything. Your guy and my guy (I have them down from 3 people to one person in my case) seem to have the same game going. They want to pin us down. If we run, they like that, too. 3. You said, “Every hour he has called me on the hour, and laughs, and says you think you control me. Think again.” After calling your phone company you noted, "I now have a tracer put on my phone. Every time he calls, I record the time of the call and then I call them into the phone company.” And “He messed up today, now I am going to have the proof to have something done with him. I think after the next week.” Here’s a question: Are you tracing what he says or that he called? If you’re only tracing that he called, he may can say, “I dialed the wrong number,” or something like that. If you record what he says, it would be much better. Of course, to record what he says, you have to talk to him, and that could be rough. But, you may have to do that. I would consider answering the calls, having it record what he says, and do that 2 or 3 or 4 times with each phone call. You keep thinking it’s going to be over in a week, which is great. I’m saying, if he stays persistent, you might consider a private eye, for you might need a lot more evidence than you think to trap this guy and make him concerned about you and the courts and public exposure. The things he is doing he is getting away with for they are not recorded, and he can say, “I didn’t do that, she doesn’t have proof.” You need proof, of what he says on the phone, how often he calls and repeats that in another conversation with you, and if he can be picked up on a video, driving by your house or walking to the front porch, etc. Sitting at a restaurant looking at you could also be captured on tape. A private eye might can get give you some hints about that. Do your video cameras have motion detectors spot lights, so the cameras can see at night? You can call an electrician about that. Your local hardware store that sells them can give you the names of people who can install them. You said, "PJVL9 I have been to the authorities it is on record now that he is doing these things, unless he actually bothers me there is nothing that can be done as of yet. The following me to public places, driving past my house, I was told it is a public street and place. He is doing no wrong, however, we all know what he is doing, he is not stupid by any means." While there is "nothing that can be done" by the police,until something happens, you were told, there is something that can be done, as I've learned the hard way, in my situation. You can hire a private eye, who (a good one), who can do things. 1. He can tape record all the times he drove in front of your house. 2. His phone calls to your house can be tape recorded, and what he says used as evidence, and how often he calls you and says things like that. 3. He can be tape recorded following you into an restaurant, etc. (by a private eye). Policed says, public street. Yes it is, but him going up and down in 30 times in short amount of time, is evidence of harassment, when coupled with other such events as the phone calls, which record word for word, tone of voice, what he says to you, that "I spent money to get you number." That's evidence. The police are just saying why they don't have to do anything, like they've told me in my situation. But that doesn't mean you can't do anything. You're like me, you're going about this backwards. You, like me, have the cameras, but you don't have the motion detector spot lights; you've got at what time he called, but you don't have what he said on the phone to you, for you're not picking up the phone anymore. You're going about it backwards, like me, because you have zero experience with this, and a private eye has years of experience, but you're going with your zero experience. That's backwards. Get the private eye, listen to what he says, see if you agree or not. The first meeting doesn't cost you anything, it didn't me, ask in advance. Again, as the sergeant told the policemen fixing to go out on patrol on the TV show, "Hillstreet Blues," "Hey, hey, hey! Be careful out there."

Soz again for the delay... Taking your posts one at a time: (Not let his [PJ's] guard down, absolutely, but there's a difference between being alert for criminal damage and petty subterfuge and thinking they're gearing up to maim or kill, that was all.) Back to lawnmower man/your first post: I didn't realise you responded with a c. 2-3 month raincheck request rather than declined altogether. Well... He really *was* in a hurry for a lodger, wasn't he. Puts into perspective and explains why after he play-dumped, just to put paid to it possibly being nought but a polite/under-assertive fob-off, he held out for the amount of time he did. He couldn't let more than a month of pressuring pass, could he, think about it in terms of the time logistics had you caved and as a condition to reuniting agreed to move in in a further month or two. Couldn't risk sucking and seeing, it sounds like; needed to rush and force things. Couldn't even contain his request in recognition of how, nobody but those that appear on Jerry Springer et al are foresight-challenged to move in together after only 8 to 10/12 piddly weeks. And I think it's also safe to say that this deliberate, very mercenary and very risky (motorbike rider) coercion tactic was a nod to how he's been more lately (s/he said for the viewers at home's benefit (hopefully)). The boy is *not* used to letting anyone get in the way of whatever he (impulsively or otherwise) wants, as I say. Also, he's got kids so, what the beep is he doing risking his life daily by riding a serious "Do-it-yourself suicide kit"? Showing his truer age and lack of adult responsibility, obviously. (So many stunteds, so little time. :-p) PS: "His end was to be able to sit down like an adult and talk about something without it automatically being drama and going off the deep end." LOL, doesn't that just about sum up his silly boy-toy? Re funding it and why: You are aware, I take it, that too many men presume plenty of ladies - the younger ones - are impressed by dating-site profile pics of these men straddling mean machines? But as I say, by that point he'd obviously decided just (or additionally) to squeeze you dry. So I'm thinking, you help with the bike repayments and he meanwhile repays you by behind your back cruising on Match Dot Com, etc. for someone less 'friend' and more 'squeeze'. That's what I'm thinking now. But then I ammmm.... verr-eh suspicious and cynical (with good reason) when it comes to mid life crises/divorce candidates who come out of it convinced they just haven't tried hard enough at being complete [censored]s, rather than seeing the event as a sign for the need to change their whole attitudes. ******* "I don't feel comfortable to let someone pay my way completely, I guess that is my independence coming into play." Mr Soulmate would have a few words to say to you about that (eef yeu could mek out heez weards, zat eez). He'd say it was like him giving you flowers and you turning around and doing the same straight back to him, i.e. you stealing a man's thunder, preventing him from strutting his best stuff (provider displays) and important source of pride-building by blocking/cancelling-out all such exhibits, as well as blocking a route to growing to rely on thus need the man, i.e. a form of pace and attachment speed control. In actual fact, during the chase and woo, rate of pace is the male's domain and (note, Evel!) one of the ways in which he impresses... because, of course, a *gentleman* (which is what he should be proving he is) knows how to 'rush' you the RIGHT ways, whereby that means, without his naturally having longer legs thus stride ending up with you - courtesy of hand-holding - getting dragged along the pavement on your very sore knees (metaphorically-speaking). You should have to maintain a pace that gives you just enough of a rosy glow and gets your blood pumping. Take a 'just because' tip: let Newbie pay if and whenever he wants to. Offer to help each time (to show female considerateness and provide his intended action with the backdrop contrast of you not having someone to pay), but only the once, and then zip your lip, beam and say thank-you (same rule for taking a compliment rather than going, 'Oh, this old thing; I just threw it on'). It aligns with the natural, what our wiring still to this day expects and is geared around. (AFTER the Honeymoon/test-drive is when you can renegotiate/swap role-based elements to suit any personal unconventionalities, just like after you've *bought* the motor is when you can pimp it). You treat him back a third of the time (or always pay for the drinks and taxi) so that you're always that bit short of a case of 'anything you can do I can do better' (and 'equally well' may as well be better). It can also strike as competitiveness. You see, you THINK you're showing the man you're not after his money, but, actually, you're supposed to be. Otherwise, if you can't be sure he can look after a mate and mini-mates because you've always blocked or given him those leg-ups, i.e. not given him the stage, how are you supposed to have the confidence to get pregnant as would require you to give up hunting and gathering for protracted periods due to third trimester immobility followed by tending 24/7 to the wee bairn(s) and keeping its nest healthy? Just not OVERLY, same as anything ('never too much, never too little' - Suess). Put it this way: neither do you need his d*ck any more than his money; you could keep yourself quite happy with your friend B.O.B. ;-) So I rest me case, m'lady. (Ha! That was meant to sound barrister-like but ended up sounding like Parker from Thunderbirds, LOL) And now is now, not the past. So you may never *before* have wanted or had to depend on anyone but you, but - you'd damn well better learn toute suite, now that you have a diamond, because men need to be needed, just as much as women, just in differing ways, and daring to rely on your partner is the same as letting someone you employ specifically as a typist, TYPE. Also (doesn't s/he go on!...), you think about how you'd feel if Newbie were displaying all the traditionally female indicators of what makes a good mate; you'd feel superfluous to requirements (not to mention, odd, and constantly unable to locate your mascara, LOL). ********** "I am sure the ex definitely will be insulted when he sees his car is here everyday and night now." Probably. Insulted or re-inspired to conquer the even meatier challenge. That or finally getting the message that his little campaign is now futile. Glad you're enjoying having Newbie around (- you ready to name the puppy yet, btw?). And I hope your mum is liking the nursing home. Have you been telling her all about how lovely Newbie is? That'll help her relaxation and acclimatisation, I imagine - knowing you're in good and safe hands? *********** *********** Post 2: Oh, for suck's fake (and I should have read ahead) - he called AGAIN? Actually went to all that trouble and expense?! So you were right, then, about expecting him to try again. "He said I went to instant checkmate, and for a small fee, I can get every phone number you have would you like for me to list them for you." That's abusive controller talk, specifically subtle but clear intimidation. Not talking follow you down a dark alley or anything, but... Oh, boy, ISN'T his money his ticket to ride as far as he's concerned! And in his bid to prove how clever he is, he's even too thick to know he's proving the distinct opposite ("nee-naw nee-naw!", "sorry, but we're 'letting you go'")). "He said this is to let you know I can find out anything I want to know about you and your boy" (I take it by 'boy' he means Newbie?) Oh, woopie-doo, good for you, you silly man! Get a life! Shame it wasn't over Skype, isn't it, or you could held up your middle finger and say, Find THIS out! "He said this in not harassing you. I want to have a conversation with you, because you will not even talk to me." Jeez, is he a whole picnic short of a picnic or what? If someone doesn't want to talk to you and acts avoidantly, preemptively and preventatively to-suit, THEN IT'S BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO TALK TO YOU, MEANING, FINDING WAYS TO FORCE YOURSELF ON THEM *IS* "HARRASSMENT", and if done repeatedly, STALKING! Is your ex called Kim Yong Un or something? Good grief. This is definitely a great game to him, isn't it. Oh, what a wonderful avoidance and procrastination aid, chasing futilely after you instead of getting on with whatever he should be getting on with. What - has his little Xbox bust or something? "I said the sound of your voice makes me ill." Good, I'm glad you went all the way. "He said because no woman is through with me until I decide we are through, you don't reject me." WTF?! Er, leaving aside this patent display of outright misogyny - clearly HE'S WRONG. ON BOTH COUNTS. Awww, this guy's just a Grade A, pompous, arrogant, jumped-up idiot, Shannon. (Tell me again why you don't want to date him a third time? LOL) "Every hour he has called me on the hour, and laughs, and says you think you control me. Think again." Yeah, see? He doesn't want you back (because he's aware he's making it literally impossible due to anathema now), he just wants to prove he's master of all he surveys, and especially over women. His money went to his head and never left, even in spite of the fact his wife clearly 'told' him to shove his dosh along with the rest of him. That's where you're at, I reckon: you now represent 'the lesson' that he chose to ignore as came in the form of his marital breakdown and divorce and the question of why. That's why he's so incredibly intent in being a thorn in your side. He wants to wrestle that lesson, via whichever 'legs' now carry it, to the ground, make it submit. But at what cost? This cost: "I now have a tracer put on my phone. Every time he calls, I record the time of the call and then I call them into the phone company.... Every time he calls, I record the time of the call and then I call them into the phone company. He messed up today, now I am going to have the proof to have something done with him. I think after the next week. I will be rid of him, knock on wood." Well done you! Talk about picking on the wrong person and ending up with an even bigger lesson that you'll never forget! He's going down. WAY down. If he ends up in court for Stalking and/or 'crimes associated with Harrassment', or Malicious Communications, as a course of conduct with malice aforethought, not only might he face an injunction but additionally stands to risk his job via a min. 6 month, max. 5 year imprisonment term and fine (max. £5k), his precious job and income, his 'good' relationship with the mother of his kids (and possibly the kids themselves), his reputation... Maybe that's subconsciously what he's helping along that bit faster now, his sense that you can't go either up or down if you're stuck in the Neither & Nowhere zone, but, being closer to 'down', that's the more obvious and less lengthy route for one with so little patience and endurance? I mean, I've seen some self-sabotaging in my time, but this really takes the biscuit in terms of his current social standing, hence the amount he stands to lose. In actual fact, unbeknownst to Duh-Brain there, you're the one controlling him. You have a think and tell me why I say that, you'll see. And then you can explain it to him if/when he ever manages to find a way to actually speak to you again. PS: Buy a hand-held dictaphone, keep it by the phone, if he calls, put him on speakerphone and press Record. Woila! And are you going to think again about a consultation with a PI, like PJ suggests or are you going to take it one step at a time as you give BT and the Police the chance to handle it? ******** What's Newbie saying about this latest development? I expect by now he's not feeling q....UITE so 'mild mannered' or self-restrained, yes? ******** PPS: I remember, once, when a long-ago ex rang silently for the Nth time one morning. Bored at not hearing anything, and having bought a ref's whistle just for the hell of it, I decided at that point to give it a really hard blow. Wow, it was piercing. Can't imagine what it sounded like through the receiver. Or felt like, I should say. Although, probably nothing, ...considering there was no-one on the other end of the line anyway. Just saying...

Soulmate I have to clarify, my returning the favors for dinner, etc. Never did I make him feel less then the alpha male he is. I know that taking care of the woman is a mans way. I returned the favor, by inviting him to dinner at my house. A home cooked meal wasn't something he got very often, being a single man, he ate out almost every night, unless he went to his parents. I would tell him I am going to dinner with mom tonight, I would say why don't you come with us, my treat tonight. It made me feel good to do something nice back for him. The same with the newbie, he pays every time we go, but I fix home cooked meals he loves it. The ex I do believe is going through the mid life crisis, he is 54, a grandfather trying to regain his youth. The motorcycle when I was young I used to love to go for rides, when I was married my husband had a bike, we would go for a ride in the evening before the kids were born. It was enjoyable, but I am 51 now, its nice to go for a ride once in a while. However, it is not something I want to spend every ounce of my spare time doing, it just doesn't interest me. I didn't want to do it every day when I was young nothing has changed now. I think all the things he is doing he is trying to prove to himself that he is a young man, picking up with women, 16 to 20 years younger then him. I guess this boost his ego, sadly most are just looking for someone to pick up the tab. But hey if that is what makes him happy, more power to him. I have better things to do, I don't mind a drink with my dinner if I go out to eat, but I don't go to the bars anymore. It just doesn't interest me. I enjoy curling up on my couch with a good movie, and relaxing. I work long hours and I am worn out when I get my days off, I like to relax. I do think your right about his rushing to move me in, he wanted someone to split the expenses. He was really playing it up that we could go on these road trips on the bike once he got it. Sorry, I have a disable parent I am caring for. I couldn't up and leave her. She is in a skilled nursing unit, not a nursing home, and she is coming home when she is stronger. That is the purpose of her being there to get therapy to get her motor skills back as much as possible before she comes home. As long as I am capable of caring for her, she will be with me in my home. I know she is being taken care of. If he wanted to move in together, I told him you can move in with me, but lets give it a couple more months if things are going as good as they are now, then I will consider it, but I am not leaving my home, which I am buying. I would be completely stupid to pay rent and a house payment so he can fund is motorcycle. You can't imagine how shocked I was when I heard his voice on the other end of the phone. I was speechless, and then when he started in on his well rehearsed speech, I thought to myself WTF are kidding me. The more I listened to him the madder I was getting. I was thinking the whole time, how can a website sell someones personal information. I just paid to have all the numbers changed, and pay extra to have an unlisted number every month, so he can pay a mere fee as he called it and have access to all my personal information. I checked this site out, what they offer you is all personal info, phone numbers, etc.. Your arrest record, family members, even all your social media accounts. They give them copies of all the pics you have on your profile. From FB, Twitter, etc. This is a complete invasion of a persons privacy. I have absolutely nothing to hide but the fact that these sites are giving out this info, what about these people who are in serious danger, abused women, etc. Their husbands and go online and find out anything they want to know about them and their whereabouts, phone numbers, etc. This should be against the law. With him I was shocked he did this but I can believe he did it after what I have seen out of him. There is definitely a side to him that I never knew existed. I don't think there is any low that he go to get what he wants. This was an extreme. I blew up and told him, how low he was. When I hung up and he started the calling I thought to myself, this is not going to stop, he is going to get worse every day. That is when I knew I had to involve the authorities. I put the trace on my phone line. I have him blocked from calling my cell but the land line, is open game again. As of yesterday I turned in 5 calls so far. I have a feeling he won the first round, but this battle is going to end soon with a knock out from me. He has no clue that his phone calls are being documented now. The games have begun. This will end in an arrest for phone harassment at the least. Being his first time offense, he will get a fine, reimburse me the costs, and I am requesting a restraining order to keep him away from me completely, he won't be able to come withing a 100 ft of me anywhere including, driving his trusty varoom machine down my street. I have the cameras in place picked him up on it driving by a couple of times already, those have been cropped out and printed, showing the time and date of his passing by. Some people may think this is extreme, but I have put up with this long enough, now I am fighting back. He is going to lose. The arrest for harassment alone, is going to be enough, to really cause him some major embarrassment. When he goes through the court proceedings, he is not going to look very good on his job. His family will know what he has done to me, I only hope they come to court with him and hear what I have to say. I didn't want this come down to having to take these measures to stop him, but he has left me no choice. I want them to know what he has done to me. What I have put up with since November from him. The newbie has been wonderful, he said he was proud that I finally decided to take the measures that I have to put a stop to it. He said I am here for you, and will help you in any way I can. He was furious when he found out what he did to get my phone numbers, he said that shows he will stop at nothing to get what he wants. He and my mother have met, she thinks he is great, she told him I am glad your staying with her. I don't like her alone there you don't know what this goofball might try to do. They seem to hit if off pretty well. She told me he is a keeper. I sit back and look at the past 8 months. I never heard from him for 6 months, he didn't know I existed. Yes he drove past checking up on me. Even with that he left me alone. Once he figured out that I was seeing someone, here he come and with this major determination he was going to win me back. He doesn't really want me he just doesn't want anyone else to have me. Like he said we are not done until, I say we are done, you don't reject me. OOOPS, but I did, and yes we are beyond done. Now it has went to the extremes that I have to involve the courts to get this stopped. If someone would have told me 8 months ago that I would be going through this now, I would have laughed at them. I never dreamed that I would be going through this with him. I have known him for 40 years, and just goes to show you, even after that much time, you still can actually not know really know a person. I hope anyone that reads this thread can get something out of it if they are going through the same issues. I have learned so many things and had my eyes opened to so many things that were going on that I didn't even realize it until it was pointed out to me and I set back and thought about it.

Oh, I see, you meant repaid IN KIND rather than, refusing to let the man treat you. Still - who told you the man needs repaying in such a direct, like-for-like way as that? You still buy all the ingredients, don't you? However, saying that, if Newbie loves it then he obviously feels confident he has many MORE 'treat her like a lady/get her used to relying on me' tricks in his bag than just that wallet-based on. So that's okay. But what I'm trying to say is, don't be so quick to repay a man's kindness and need to manly-nurture or it can smack of regurgitation. Swallow it, digest it, let it become part of you rather than poo-ing it out, as will have you constantly beaming at him and thinking, 'Whaddamaaan!'. That's what he wants. ********** Evel is fifty-fo-FIFTY-FOOOOOOUUUUR?! Acting like that *and* riding a seriously powerful motorbike? Ye GODS! Talk about should act his age, not his shoe-size! Shameful. You SURE he's 'recapturing' rather than is just your archetypal Peter Pan? I mean, at 54, the furthest back you dare go for pride's sake to recapture your yoof is about 20 years, making his assumed age 34 which is STILL too old to be messing with suicide kits. Nah. He's a little boy in a grown-up man suit and always was but knew how to act like an adult in just practical ways. Somebody buy him an electric guitar, a headband, an amp and tell him to go join a rock band. At least it wouldn't risk semi-orphaning his kids. YUP! to the picking up the tab bit. Ohhh, yup. But then, if he does insist on walking into a room wallet-first, what does he expect? "You can't imagine how shocked I was when I heard his voice on the other end of the phone. " I bloody can, you know. "I checked this site out, what they offer you is all personal info, phone numbers, etc.. Your arrest record, family members, even all your social media accounts. They give them copies of all the pics you have on your profile. From FB, Twitter, etc. This is a complete invasion of a persons privacy. " I should cocoa! Is it NOT illegal? HOW isn't it? I mean, clearly entitlement isn't automatic, hence having to pay for the data. (I need to look into this.) But yes he's going to lose. Like I said, he's under-estimated you... all along, as well. And now Newbie (watch that space). Damn right he's a keeper (so far...don't want to get ahead of ourselves here, it's still an ongoing test-drive with many more route and lane proving grounds). ********** Anyhoo... The jury is in, as far as I'm concerned (- I know PDs, trust me, I know PDs, OH GOD, DO I KNOW PDS, aaargh, Telly-Tubby run awaaay!!!). Yes, he's personality disordered, and/or DefCon-ed to the max. to-boot, showing all the typical signs and characteristics full-frontal. Basically, he beggars belief... and that sums up a PD for ya, especially a thwarted one. As does this: "I hate you!/Don't leave me!" (seeing it?). Cunning, devious, hell-bent on changing you mind (just for the sake and petty satisfaction of it), yet beyond that here and now, really incredibly stupid, achieving nothing. Achieving the *opposite* to nothing. The other, more traditional word for them is Machievelli (in which case, yes he IS a Peter Pan). You imagine he were just a very tall and old-looking 13-year-old boy. Click-click-click, PING!, it now all seems perfectly normal and appropriate for his age and not-yet-developed (his case, never) emotional intelligence, yes? There you go. But this one's going too willingly to the wall. You're now an extra, add-on Do-It-Yourself Suicide Kit. He wants you to 'kill' him and put him out of his (and everybody else's) misery. As I say, Down is better than Stuck Suspended In The Middle if Up isn't in the offing. Give the poor man what he so desperately wants, eh. I'm proud, too, by the way. :-)

Soulmate: I think you are dead on about the Peter Pan syndrome with him. I think he is a kid trapped in a mans body. I think he should be living in Never Never Land. On an adult level of maturity I would give him about 4 on a scale of 1 to 10. He has the body of man, but the brain of teenager. We're talking about a man who cannot even sit down and have a serious discussion with you over anything. The minute I tried to talk to him about something that was bothering me. He went into shut down mode and ran like a baby, crying the whole way you are creating drama, and this is supposed to be drama free. I am sorry but no relationship is ever drama free. There comes a point in every relationship that you have to sit down and talk about an issue, it is not the end of the world. Like he makes it out to be. I am sure if I had agreed to move in with him, paid half his bills, set in a corner and played like a mute, and agreed to go riding on his trusty trike. I would probably be living in marital bliss by now, NOT!!!!. I honestly don't know how he stayed married to the same for woman for 30 plus years. What kind of marriage did they have? There couldn't have been any communication between them at all. The only thing I can figure is he made good money and as long as she could spend it as fast as he made it. She was happy. I am sorry money is a necessity in life, but even the richest people in the world are not always happy. There has to be more in life besides money. I mean don't get me wrong, I love money and I spend it very well. My point is with me I don't dwell on money, it is not my main topic of conversation. I am content as long as I can pay my bills, have food on my table, and possibly have some extra money left over at the end of the week. The love of my family and friends is what makes me rich. Those are things that money can't buy you. I don't think he can honestly say he is rich in love because everything evolves around a dollar with him. That seems to be the only time his kids contact him is when they need money. The whole 6 months I was with him, they never contacted him to come to dinner, or just to visit. The only time they called was when they wanted to borrow money. My kids contact me daily and we all try to get together at least one day a week for dinner and to visit with each other. I honestly feel sorry for him. He doesn't have a clue that there is so much happiness that money can't buy. He called me at work one day to tell me he was going to have dinner with his parents, I said no problem enjoy your visit. After I hung up my daughter called me, and she said well if he is eating supper with his parents why don't you and grandma come for supper when you get off work, and we can visit. I accepted the offer. Can you believe he called me before I left work, wanted to know what I was going to do when I got off work, I told him I was going to my daughters for dinner, so when I was done eating I was just going to come on home. He honestly had the nerve to ask me are you mad at me because I ate dinner with my parents. I am like are you kidding me, mad because you had dinner with your family, do you know how petty that sounds, you ask me this that knowing I worked all day, by the time I go home change and go eat dinner, it is going to be after 10 when I get home. I have to be up at 5 to go to work, there is really no point in me coming over any more tonight. I said you are more then welcome to come along. He said no thanks I will just go on home. I said well if you like you can come and visit or spend the night here. He said no thanks I am going home. I said then I will call you after I get home. I am sorry but that is not normal, yes you are right he definitely had a PD, and I think other major issues as well. I think he was jealous of the time I spent with my kids and the relationship I have with them, because he doesn't have that with his. I definitely think growing up in a home that his parents showed no love to him or his siblings affected him in many ways. The newbie is the complete opposite, he never talks about money. He talks about his family (children and parents), about how they are doing. What he did during his day. He asks me about my day, if I heard from my kids and if there is anything new going on with them. He has even suggested we have a get together so he can meet all my kids and I can meet his. The ex never asked about my kids and only talked about his if it was to gripe about them calling him for money. The cooking dinner for them, it is a kind gesture and yes it makes me feel good to do something nice for them. Yes I buy the food, its not meant to be insulting in anyway. Home cooked meals is not something they get all the time. Both single men, most generally they eat out fast food. I don't know about you but I can't eat fast food every day. I have to have home cooked meals. The fast food is fine but after awhile it all starts to taste the same. My mother lives with me and I like to sit down and have dinner with her. I invited the ex to come and eat on the nights that I cooked dinner for us. He and my mother were very close when we were young, so it was like old times sitting down and all of us eating together. The newbie loves my cooking and will ask me to cook him things that he likes to eat. Of course he would always say if I buy the food will you fix this for supper, I say sure would love to. Now that he is staying with me, he buys the groceries since I pay the household bills. He said, I won't stay here and not pay for something, I said okay if that is what you want to do its fine with me. We have supper, we both clean up the mess, and then we watch tv. I really like this, because after I work all day I love to curl up on my couch at night and just relax, and the newbie is very content to do the same. Update on the calls they are still coming in, I have turned in several more, since I had the trace put on, he his literally hanging himself. I have 4 more days and the trace will be take off then he will get a a major surprise. I would love to see his face when they arrest him for phone harassment. I can't wait. This site that gives your information out for a fee. After doing some research, I can't believe how many of these sites there are. This has to be against the law for them to do this. I did a search on myself on this site to what its about, they even a have a site that tells you who is searching for you. WTH, this just crazy. The things that are out there to spy on you. They have a software that you can download into your phone, and all you have to do is call a number and as soon as they answer the phone or it goes to voice mail. This software attaches to their phone. You can see every call they get and receive, every text received and sent, if they are in social medias (FB, Twitter, etc.) it will download a copy of all their activity to your phone. It says this is how women are catching their husbands cheating on them. OMG, this stuff cannot be legal. Anyone can go online and find out anything and everything they want about someone, and now they can even purchase software that basically lets them tap your phone and uploads all your activity for a one time price of 27.99. This is not right, definitely has to be against the law, it is clearly an invasion of privacy.

Soulmate, I think I am at my end completely, nothing this man does is even to the point that shocks me anymore. The phone calls have become almost nil, but I get a text from him through my FB account, yes he is using a fake profile. Here are his words to me. I am switching up on you so you cannot trace my calls. I wouldn't let you have the satisfaction of having me arrested for harassing you. I am not that stupid. You treat me like I am a bad person that did something wrong to you. Was I in the wrong to end a relationship that I couldn't trust you? You went through my files and checked up on me. I never gave you any reason to doubt me. Still you couldn't trust me. Yes she sent me a friend request, you got all bent out of shape over it, accusing me of cheating. You left me no choice but to end this stupidity and walk away. OMG!!!, can you believe the nerve here. I never accused him of anything, I said I didn't like it. This man sees no wrong in anything he does. He takes everything and turns it around to make you look bad. Whatever he thinks, big deal, I don't care. It is not going to change a thing. I am at my wits end with this BS, for someone that can't stand drama he sure is causing a lot of it. It must be okay to have drama as long as he is the one creating it. I change my phone numbers, I blocked him on FB. Now he is resorting to fake profiles to get to me, is there nothing he won't do or try, to cause me problems. It just seems that everything I am trying it is backfiring on me. I hope something comes of the trace on my phone. I don't know anymore. I am going to see what comes of the tracer the calls have stopped now, but for how long. What good is to have my number changed he will just get it again. I am having it set up on my phone today not to accept private calls, if anyone calls private number, or has blocked their ID in anyway it will give them a message that says "sorry but this client does not receive blocked calls". In order for it to ring through he will have to unblock his number. He has my cell phone number but I do not receive any private numbers on it. I am honestly beginning to wonder if he has someone telling him my business. I don't know who it would be. We do not travel in the same social circles. I don't understand how he is finding out everything I am doing and is being able to counteract it. This man in not that intelligent. I am not being sarcastic here, he isn't. I am looking into PI's in my area to see what my options are. I am at my end with him. Today, even the newbie, said is there anything this jerk won't do to get what he wants. I said, I don't know. He said hes not going to stop until he breaks us up. I said that won't happen. He said but how far is he going to take this? He said I am prepared to take it as far as he wants to go with it, because I don't see him backing off. He said you rejected him, and now he is hell bent for revenge, for you putting him in his place. He warned me that it is probably going to get much worse before it stops. I just don't know how much more I can handle. My mother took a turn for the worse today. We are not sure what is going to happen with her. I don't think I can deal with her health deteriorating and his stupidity as well.

"I wouldn't let you have the satisfaction of having me arrested for harassing you. I am not that stupid." He's had a warning call or visit, already, look! And doesn't like it. My god, the arrogance of this man that he thinks he can outwit even the law! I am not that stupid? Sorry, pal, but the evidence to-date in fact says you're King Stupid from Stupidville on Planet Stupid! I would love to be in that courtroom (the day it happens). To see whichever judge presides, kick that arrogance RIGHT out of him and remind him of who's boss! Told ya. He's self-destructing. What does he mean, 'his files'? Accusing him of cheating? No, you weren't. You were simply saying you weren't prepared to settle for a relationship that featured the ex hanging around, REGARDLESS of his and her reasons or the extent of them at that point. So I don't know, Shannon, whether it's his nerve I can't believe or his perception. ONE of the two is unhealthy to point of gross, that's for sure. Bleugh, don't fancy yours much. LOL (sorry-sorry, couldn't resist a bit of Black Humour; hope it made you smile rather than reach for the sawn-off, LOL) Well, anyway... that was my Kirk take. (Your panic must be infectious, LOL.) Spock, on the other hand, thinks he knows DARN WELL he's talking nonsense... nonsense that'll get you foaming indignantly at the mouth and, because of that and *only* that (- albeit, he's not fussed right now...negative attention is still attention -), get you [wait for it] RESPONDING! It's a button-push. Ignore. "for someone that can't stand drama he sure is causing a lot of it." LOL, well said. Glad you've still got your sense of humour about you. But, look, calm down and think rationally. He can't keep this up forever, he'll soon get bored and give up. The important fact *is* - he's obviously had an official warning and responded by backing off. Not all the way. But still to as far back as Facebook. Okay, that may not be him actually ceasing all attempts at contact per se, but it does at least show you that the warning had an effect. Always, always focus on the actions/lack of/difference in. But why he's even more stupid than he realises is because: 1. It's a Facebook message, there in Black & White ("Evidence C, Your Honour"). 2. He identifies himself through the combative nature of his message and, worse, his making reference to the specifics of your case *and* of your relationship. Duh?...a-duh-a-duh-a-duuuuh?! I mean, I know Coppers are getting younger and younger these days, but I think they can still join 10ft dots,... dots that are positively winking at each other from across the room, LOL. Again, I mean - "I am switching up on you so you cannot trace my calls." Gosh, who on *earth* could that message be from? Whose calls are you having to trace these days? Ummmmm..... LOL 3. He repeats the very offence from which he's just officially been warned - knowing and deliberate intimidation. Immediately take a safe copy of that communique and show it to the Police. EEZ GURN DAAAN!!! I don't think he can have any help, though. Not unless it's from someone who secretly hates his guts? Stupid he may be, when it comes to people, but he might be linearly intelligent, such as, particularly techy-savvy. Bit like a 4-year-old trained to marksman standard, left alone in an Uzi factory... while in the midst of a huge tantrum. PS: I had to order that call blocking with the rebound ex. His fingers were far too fond of 141. One thing I can't stand is furtive cowardice. If he had something to say to me he could damn well identify himself to say it (this was before the whistle incident) so I could at least tear a strip or two off of him. He did the fake profile thing, too. Using a friend *I'd met*, sat in his sitting-room, in his favourite armchair chair, wearing the one-off designer shirt I bought for his birthday (talk about, look-at-me-look-at-meeee!)... which was far too big for said midget friend, meaning, in said fake profile picture he not only looked distinctly uncomfortable doing said ex this 'favour' (must have owed him big-time or something, is all I can presume, still), but like a complete fashion disaster. I *could* go on. (So many tw*ts, so little time...) ****** It's not going to break you up, it's going to cement you. It already has been, think about it. ;-) ****** About your mum. :-( Just :-( Hope she bounces back soon. PS: Yeah, you can.

Sorry, should endeavour to be clearer when you're stressed-out: "Stupid he may be, when it comes to people, but he might be linearly intelligent, such as, particularly techy-savvy. Bit like a 4-year-old trained to marksman standard, left alone in an Uzi factory... while in the midst of a huge tantrum." 'But not even a bosonic fraction of as dangerous', I should have added. Facebook him a picture of Newbie's bare bum, go on. LOL... only joking. You've handed this over to the Police and BT now. Shame in a way, eh... Picture his face if you did do that! :-D

Soulmate, yes I am stressed out, terribly. With everything I have going on. Then having to deal with his stupidity. I am at the end of my rope. Thank you so much for the laugh, it really was needed. Things for mom are not looking good, the doctor said there is irreversible damage. Depending on her, will depend on how much she can bounce back, but he said at her age not to expect a lot. When I got home, I received a phone call from him and I was so upset from talking to the doctor. I flat blew up, I told him, look my mother is very ill. I don't have it in me to deal with you anymore. I said can't you even be decent and leave me alone. I told him out of respect for our families can't you just go away and leave me alone. I said I can't deal with you anymore and I started to cry. I told him you did damage to the relationship that can never be repaired, and if it could I don't want it. I told him I gave you two chances and both times you dumped on me completely. I said I didn't deserve this from you. I told him, my mother is in really bad health and I would just appreciate it if you would show some common respect for her and just leave me alone. All he said was I am very sorry and please believe me when I say this, and he hung up. I just can't handle anymore of it. The trace was completed today. The newbie is checking into PI's for me just in case I may need to use ones services. Hopefully after today, and he knows the state of mind I am in, he will go away, and not cause me anymore problems. I have a lot on my mind to reply to your post, but I can't think straight today. Thank you for your support, you don't know how much it means to have someone to vent to and help you sort out these issues.

I was going to say, at least the guy is winding it down, doing it from a far greater distance. But then I read your latest and see he followed up with an actual call. Well, yet another call recorded is just him using the extra rope he's been given- nay, TAKEN, to hang himself with. His funeral. HOWEVER, that he did say he was very sorry and, what's more, *proved* it by hanging up, tells me that something or other you said did actually hit home in that puny conscience of his. The sound of you crying, mentioning your two families' relationship, and the way you put it when talking about your mother's illness (making it sound like she's been diagnosed terminal, being just a matter of time now, and not much time at that), I imagine. I think that's what you call, one of those situations where exaggerating turns out to be a *good* move. (PS - Tip: on the off chance of his repeating the exercise, in future always be the one to click off first; it aligns better with your claim to pure victimhood.) I think you're right to presume he'll stay away now (although, shame he did the decent thing too late not to get a spanked a*se anyway, eh, what with his call having just made it into the trace). I think maybe the guy is just so emotionally clueless that he's been desperate to have an in-depth conversation, more than anything else, and couldn't handle being told no (well, there's a first for everything, pal), no debrief, and not even a hair's-breadth chance of renegotiations towards reconciliation, so responded like the spoiled brat he's for years been allowed to be, by resorting to trying to be a constant thorn in your side, effectively holding your peace of mind to ransom until and unless you relented, with his attitude obviously now changing drastically in light of the news about your mother being so ill plus that salient reminder of how easily his own family could find out. If he'd really been so desperate to discuss things then, well, he should have taken the opportunities back when they presented themselves, shouldn't he. Maybe that'll teach him, in future, *not* to flounce off home the minute a contention begs being sorted and to instead sit down and conduct himself like the adult he's supposed to be. Whatever. He clearly *does* have a conscience - or too precious a public Great, Upstanding Guy veneer to risk tarnishing with whispers about his having added to a gravely ill woman's demise rate (imagine the backlash!) - or a bit of each - so I'm with you, doubt the PI will be required, now. Still, maybe have the consultation anyway, just to put your mind at rest by giving you back a fuller sense of control (and because it might be highly educational). Distinctly noted that Newbie is behaving like you and he are already a solid team, without even batting an eyelid. :-) PS: Yeah, I do. I had the aforementioned rebound ex still pestering when my own mother officially had only a couple of months left to live (cancer). Mr S was equally wonderfully, supportive, but we had a greater innings under our belt at that sad point than you two, meaning, it was more natural and automatic for him by then,...which is why I'm noting, impressedly, Newbie's early performance (GIANT TICK AND GOLD STAR!). Spooky how much you and I have in common, eh! But, then, again, not really, given the typical menu of events at our (cough!) Autumnal status, mixed with the post-divorcal path (same path, different walkers). PPS: I'm right that this has actually been a blessing in disguise in terms of speeded-up yet legitimate bonding. Look at how close you and Newbie are already. So try to view it in that positive 'Fate doing me a cleverly surreptitious favour' way, rather than solely the giant headache you've been taking it for, yes? Furthermore, you wouldn't want to underestimate just how amazingly reassuring and thereby helpful to her health/recovery it'll be, for your mother to right now be witnessing you finally pairing up with a complete and utter diamond of a geezer. :-) That takes an enormous amount of pressure off her.

Soulmate yes I thought he was maybe winding down to. Then the phone call came it and it was at the worst time, I was so emotional at that time that I just snapped and here come the tears. I just can't deal with the news about my parent and him as well. Normally I am ready and up for his challenges, to put him in his place and just watch him hang himself more and more. However, now is not that time, I think he realized that the other day when he called and I broke down and started crying you could hear a change in his voice and the "I'm sorry", before he hung up. Seemed very apologetic. Don't get me wrong I am not getting soft over this. I am just hoping that he sees that what he has been doing is not going to lead to anything but more trouble and I really am not up for this, not at this time. I haven't heard from him since, he has not been driving by and there have been no calls or messages. Hopefully, he has found some type of compassion within himself. I am not letting down my guard with him, because he can start back up just as fast as he has stopped. The trace on my phone line has been taken off now, I hope to hear something positive from that, by means of him having to pay for the crap he was doing. I definitely think that would open his eyes that he is not untouchable and he took his game to far this time. When going your merry way doesn't work, and flat out telling someone you are no longer interested. Then you have to go to extremes when they feel its okay to harass you. This is not acceptable for anyone to have to put up with. He violated my privacy by going on to this site and buying my personal info. I paid money to have the numbers changed so he couldn't contact me and harass us with his calls. Then to gloat over the fact that he did it and can do it again. That struck a major nerve in me. That said enough you are going to pay for this. I have no intentions of backing down or not pursing and arrest for harassment. He might think twice before he does it to someone else. The news of my mother is very devastating, no matter how much you think you are prepared for it when the time comes, you really aren't. I have been in a major state of depression since the doctor told us. I cry at the drop of hat, my emotions are running wild right now. The newbie has been amazing during this time, he is a diamond, you are so right. He has done nothing but console and comfort me in every way. Being there for me is what I need the most and I have to say he has been my rock. I told him about the call, and he said maybe, jerko has finally seen the light. I said one could hope but I'm not going to hold my breath. He said if he ever cared for your mom in any way he will show her the proper respect and leave you alone. He said anyone in their right mind knows that this is not the time to do the things he has been doing. I said who said he was in his right mind, we both started laughing he said yes you got a point. I will keep you updated on the phone issue. I want to ensure that now that he seems to have backed off that he won't start again. The newbie is staying and the ex is in the past, and that is where he is going to stay. I checked him off as lesson learned. Yes you and I seem to have much in common, I think that is why you have helped me to see so many things that I never realized was happening. You have been a major help to me, listening to me vent and giving me your advice from common experiences. That means so much, and I thank you from my heart.

Soulmate I am so frustrated, I got a call from the officer that gave me the report number to file my phone trace. He said that it needs further investigation before they can make an arrest on the calls. I asked him what does that mean. I told him I reported the calls as they came in. He said yes we know you did, however, the calls came from a phone number that is not listed from this area. I said how can that be. I know who it that called me. I gave him his name again. He said I am aware of this. He said however, this phone is listed to someone other then him. I said then it has to be his girlfriend or someone like that. He said no this name was listed in Texas. He said a lot of times people will go in and they get a call blocker and service and they can register the name of the phone to appear as it is coming from another city, state, etc. He said they even list a name that is not connected to them in anyway, which makes trying to trace these phones almost impossible. I said so what you are telling me is I have wasted my time again. He said no you didn't waste your time, but he just outsmarted you. He said the sad thing is there is nothing I can do without proof. He asked if I was still getting the calls, I said no I hadn't received one for almost a week now. He said the next time you get one I want you to be prepared. I want you to get a voice recorder and when he starts in his conversation. Keep him on the line and record his calls that way. He said, even if I can't make an arrest I will have his voice on the line and I can confront him with this. He said it might be enough to scare him enough to make him go away. I told him I have cameras up on the house now. I can monitor him driving by. He said we can't do anything to him for driving by coming on your property is another story if he does, call and have him removed. He will be told if he comes back an arrest will be made. That should stop him from coming to your house and bothering you. He said get a recorder and when he calls do as I ask you to do. He said hopefully this guy will slip up and we can make an arrest. I told him how I got my numbers changed and how he went on this site and bought my private and personal information, phone numbers included. He said yes those sites do exist. They should be against the law. However, at this time, there is nothing that can be done about this either. I said all the laws protect the stalkers, I said I am not in danger of this man, but the contact from him is not wanted, I made that perfectly clear. He said I am very sorry. Please do as I ask you to do, and we will see if we can go another route to put a stop to this. This is just crazy, this man is not that smart, I am telling you. He is devious, and it insults me that he is outsmarting me in everything I do. I am on my way out to buy a device to record his calls if he starts again. Yes I have an appointment with a PI, hopefully I can get something worthwhile from him.

I beg to differ. His call came at the *best* time. Result says so. :-) One of the things that sticks out for me, though, is how, even distraught, you managed to manipulate and dupe him far more cleverly, subtly and convincingly than he ever managed with you, despite only he's the one practising it every single day! He's not nearly as intelligent as you, whichever way you look at it. Unlike Newbie. So who cares what this ex truly thinks or tells himself, despite that 'pithy' thing known as Glaring Evidence? He'll skip off into the sunset, sufficiently satisfied. I know you think he could start back up, but, I think not. Why would he want to risk having that eternally self-flattering story taken away or weakened rather than just add it to the very thick veneer of his (that he relies on to keep fooling himself he's functional, even in the romantic arena)? Even a fake Nice Guy that felt wronged wouldn't pursue his bloody-minded point in the face of such a widely-understood and familiar personal situation that people would automatically fly to, empathy- and taking sides-wise. All that would have to happen is, just one person in or with access to his circle getting to learn about the chain of events from *both* sides, doing the maths in terms of transposing their timing, then realising what a selfish beep he privately is to have considered his pathetic need for a debrief more important than not compounding the stress and grief of someone who's mother were that 'gravely ill'. His Nice Guy image would be permanently in tatters. A corner of his conscience, however, is going to forever more sit there, struggling with and trying (but not being allowed) to reject that false conclusion (e.g. he knows he rubbernecked and how unacceptable a behaviour it is in front of any partner), along with the rest already refusing to 'sit still' that he constantly has to live with and already routinely affects his behaviour (that you bore the brunt of the whole time). ************ "The news of my mother is very devastating, no matter how much you think you are prepared for it when the time comes, you really aren't. I have been in a major state of depression since the doctor told us. I cry at the drop of hat, my emotions are running wild right now." There isn't any preparing, and anyway/because, a part of the process *is* - vitally - being unprepared. But, yeah, I know. Take comfort in the fact that the baton is already being passed from your mum to Newbie as we speak and would be, anyway, were she well. So you're still always going to have a mum-figure in your life, no matter future what. Which is what should have happened first time round, but didn't/couldn't, not with your dysfunctional, incapable ex. And she, too, wouldn't have been able or willing to properly let go, mental baton-wise, whilst that situation still reigned. So in a way you're finally leaving home, WITH your mum's blessing, missus. Not the action bit (you did that ages ago); the delayed psychological version of that tangible/physical entity. Think about it. And even if it turned out Newbie *weren't* The One (doubtful), you've still shown her you've finally started picking from the Diamond barrel, haven't you. So that's the main thing - you being decidedly on the up. Another silver-lining: You've got a new diary. :-) You can talk here about things and say things you couldn't in 'real life'. Only, this diary talks back, LOL. ******* "He has done nothing but console and comfort me in every way. Being there for me is what I need the most and I have to say he has been my rock." Is he a rock, normally, or is he BEING a rock because that's what you feel compelled to be to be when you know you've met The One? Clearly, going by his impressive level so early on - BOTH. So now he's met you, he's a SUPER-Rock. (And - "Jerko", ha-ha!!! My kinda guy!) "I said who said he was in his right mind, we both started laughing he said yes you got a point." Nice one! But he's not insane; if he were, he wouldn't be employable, wouldn't be able to pass himself off as normal and functional in *any* arena. He's just been forced by his nature or/and nurture to have to think and live that warped way, to suit the warped foundation, to psychologically survive, and needs it most whenever someone gets to see him 'undressed'. They need to agree that 'the emperor' is wearing his nice, new clothes. Self-delusion can be a vital self-preservation tool, sadly. It's that or face what you were repeatedly, wrongly and unfairly fed yet left convinced was the awful truth (I must be unlovable sh*t-on-a-stick). And, when you yourself are all you have in this life - who could or would want to face and live with *that*? So you've got to feel sorry for him in the final analysis. Or sorry for the innocent and well-intentioned little baby into toddler into boy he once was :-( ...until someone(s) ucked him up with their own ucking-up as got conditioned-in by the uck-up further up, up, up that family line? ('Cruelty to children must stop, FULL stop!'. Yes, it must.) (Don't get me started, LOL) *********** (Pssst!...Feeling a bit uncomfortable being thanked when PJ went to such a huge effort, albeit I understand it's because of how distracted you'll be right now. Credit to him, likewise, would be nice, though? :-))

Note to self: Don't leave the typing box up and half-completed overnight or you miss seeing that another post's been added - ref your latest. Doh! Let me read it (I've only seen 'Soulmate I'm so frustrated') and respond...

"Soulmate I am so frustrated, I got a call from the officer that gave me the report number to file my phone trace. He said that it needs further investigation before they can make an arrest on the calls. I asked him what does that mean. I told him I reported the calls as they came in. He said yes we know you did, however, the calls came from a phone number that is not listed from this area. I said how can that be. I know who it that called me. I gave him his name again. He said I am aware of this. He said however, this phone is listed to someone other then him. I said then it has to be his girlfriend or someone like that. He said no this name was listed in Texas. He said a lot of times people will go in and they get a call blocker and service and they can register the name of the phone to appear as it is coming from another city, state, etc. He said they even list a name that is not connected to them in anyway, which makes trying to trace these phones almost impossible. I said so what you are telling me is I have wasted my time again. He said no you didn't waste your time, but he just outsmarted you. He said the sad thing is there is nothing I can do without proof. He asked if I was still getting the calls, I said no I hadn't received one for almost a week now. He said the next time you get one I want you to be prepared. I want you to get a voice recorder and when he starts in his conversation. Keep him on the line and record his calls that way. He said, even if I can't make an arrest I will have his voice on the line and I can confront him with this. He said it might be enough to scare him enough to make him go away. I told him I have cameras up on the house now. I can monitor him driving by. He said we can't do anything to him for driving by coming on your property is another story if he does, call and have him removed. He will be told if he comes back an arrest will be made. That should stop him from coming to your house and bothering you. He said get a recorder and when he calls do as I ask you to do. He said hopefully this guy will slip up and we can make an arrest. I told him how I got my numbers changed and how he went on this site and bought my private and personal information, phone numbers included. He said yes those sites do exist. They should be against the law. However, at this time, there is nothing that can be done about this either. I said all the laws protect the stalkers, I said I am not in danger of this man, but the contact from him is not wanted, I made that perfectly clear. He said I am very sorry. Please do as I ask you to do, and we will see if we can go another route to put a stop to this. This is just crazy, this man is not that smart, I am telling you. He is devious, and it insults me that he is outsmarting me in everything I do. I am on my way out to buy a device to record his calls if he starts again. Yes I have an appointment with a PI, hopefully I can get something worthwhile from him." ****************************************************************************************************** (Phew! When I clocked 'so frustrated', for a moment there I thought you were going to say he'd called a further time!) "They should be against the law. However, at this time, there is nothing that can be done about this either." Ach! The 'mere aphids' will just sit and wait patiently for the 'ants' farming them to get their fingers out of their bums, shall we? I understand the officer's predicament. There has to be concrete evidence that'd stand up in a court of law, which your word against his - Hearsay - does not. However, the positive side to this is that Newbie is now showing contempt even for the law, not just you, meaning, if/when he slips up (he will... he'll overlook an important detail, like all PDs do, you just wait) and appears, the court will go that much heavier on him. And if he doesn't get caught, that still doesn't alter the fact of his having spotted he'd met his own (image-preserving) boundary and then quickly bowing out. He WAS the one who hung up, remember? I use handheld voice recorders. The one I'd recommend (don't know if I'm allowed to but, I feel this is an extenuating circumstance so...?), which, if I recall correctly, is under £100, is the Sony ICD PX440, handheld. Very easy to operate and keep on record-standby. But if he *doesn't* call again, meaning, you never manage to get that evidence, just remember how unhappy the guy is and will more than likely remain, Amen. Law courts aren't the only court, there's also the court of life/fate ("what goes around, COMES around"). THEY know that, which is why they deal only with Pounds and Pence and other materials/tangibles. And trust me, it not only exists but *works* (when, not if). I've been watching it for a veeeeery long time so I know what I 100% know on that score...NOT ONE, SINGLE DOUBT. Evel is at some point going to - fact - get his a*se spanked by the giant hand of life. And when he least expects and needs it. That's right, he is not smart. He's like a toddler, concentrating to the exclusion of anything else going on around him, preparing a stink-bomb missile for his slingshot...whilst sat on the line of a busy rail route. So, no, he is not outsmarting you, he's still been self-destructing...which will get speeded up mightily if he does dare make one more call and you've got that handheld at the ready by the phone and remember to always press Speakerphone the minute you've picked up the receiver. Let's see what the PI says, as well.

(Wash my mouth out - I said 'Newbie' [is now showing contempt] instead of 'Evel'!...but I'm sure you realised anyway and I'm just being my usual anal self.)

I haven't heard from in now for over a week, hopefully, he has decided its time to move on. I do have to say he is far more clever then I estimated him to be. I didn't think the old guy had that in him. I stood up to him and he outsmarted me. I think your right I think he knows he has played this to the limit of its time to bow out or his squeaky clean image is going to be marred, oh he doesn't want the bad publicity. We talked to a PI to find out what options I have. He gave me a few, but said he doubts that anything will come of it. He said he could try to dig up the phone records but he doubted he would have any more success then the phone company or the police have had. He said he seems to have covered his tracks well on that one. He said I could follow him to see where he is going and where he is spending his time, you might get something on him that you could later use against him if he tries this again. I told him I don't care or want to know where he goes. I just want him to go away and stay away. He did go around and check a few things out as far as security options to add to the cameras. He suggested a local company come out and install an actual system instead of just using the cameras, this way it would be actually documented through an accredited firm. We agreed on this. I am calling them tomorrow to see when they can come out and what they can suggest to put in, if he comes around again it will be documented this time. Thanks, PJ for suggesting this to me awhile back, this are slow to get done, but I take in every thing and all advice that I am given, sometimes it takes a little longer going through the necessary steps to end up at a point. Yes you are completely right there are other courts besides law courts and he will undoubtedly meet his someday. I do believe in Karma and what goes around comes around and he will get his in return someday. There comes a times when everyone has to answer for what they have done. I found out the other day, I was at the hospital, I ran into his ex wife. We talked a few, and she said I am going down to the tea room would you like to join me for some coffee. I said sure. We were friends when we were young. We went down and she started the conversation off by saying I know it hasn't been brought up but I know you and he were dating for awhile. She said its not a problem with me. I told her honestly that when I accepted the dinner invitation, it being a date was the farthest from my mind. I told he said two old friends catching up with dinner or a drink. I told her we just hit it off. She said that didn't surprise her, because we were very close when we were young. She asked me what happened, she said I know its not my business but out of curiosity would you mind talking about it. I said no, (me thinking maybe he may have done the same thing to her) and I might find out some things that may help in the future. By all means lets talk. I told her about the ex girlfriend texting and calling him at work. Then he added her to his contacts on FB. She said, that doesn't surprise her, she said he had several affairs through the years, and she said I was a fool I got the promise it wouldn't happen again so I took him back several times. She said however, the last one was a deal breaker, I said what happened if you don't mind telling me. She told me he had a an affair with their best friends daughter who was 20 years younger then he was. She said he not only broke up their marriage but hers as well. She said they were good friends with the girls parents they did everything together. She said when he did this there was no redeeming himself to me after that. She said the humiliation that was caused was more then she could handle. I told her he didn't humiliate you he did it to himself, because everyone now knows how low he truly is. I knew he had a affair, but I never dreamed it was this. You don't sleep with the kids of your best friends of your family. That is the lowest I think anyone could sink. Having a affair, is bad in itself but with your best friends daughter, I told her it didn't surprise me that he did this. I said he told me he had an affair, but never went into details and I didn't ask. I asked her honestly how she dealt with his mood swings, I told her he was fine as long as I didn't disagree, or say no, or question anything he did. She said, I just ignored him, he would go get on his trusty varoom machine and off he would go and come back several hours later. She said why do you ask, I said well he did that to me, over moving in together. I told her I didn't want to move in with him not at that time. I felt it was way to soon. I told her I think his reason for asking me was to pay half his bills. I told her I have my own to pay and I wasn't about to leave my home and go pay rent to. She said for years I put up with his BS, and I just got to the point that I didn't care anymore. She said one more affair, was no big deal to me, it least he wasn't bothering me. However, who he had the affair with is what bothered her, she said anyone but their best friends daughter, she said this girl was 2 years older then their oldest. She said am I wrong but is their something wrong with a man that wants to date the kids of their friends. She said granted the girl wasn't a kid anymore. However, you still look at them as kids, you watched them grow up from the time they were born. This made me completely sick with I found it out. I said yes I have to agree, an affair is bad enough but you don't sleep with your family friends. I walked away from this conversation with a completely different outlook of this man. He is worse then I ever thought. Complete scum. I told her about the rubbernecking at the concert. The harassing phone calls, driving by. She said let me guess "How can you do this to us". I said, omg, he played the same crap on you. She said oh yes the trusty guilt trip. She said oh he does that when his new interest falls through then he wants to come back. I said well not to me, hes not, I have a great man and there is no place for him in my life. She said I don't even speak to him. I told her he dates nothing but women that range 12, 16, and 20 years younger then him. I said that to me is a problem when a man can't relate to anyone his own age. She said he thinks its making him young again, she said the bike, the young girlfriend. He will never find happiness with anyone because he is a miserable person. She said hes running to his mom and dads, she said the whole time they were married they never went to their house. The only reason he is there now is he has no one else. None of their friends want anything to do with him. I said I can understand that one. After our talk, I walked away from it with a whole different outlook of him. I completely feel that anyone that would do what he did and has the nerve to judge someone else. Karma, is going to have a field day with him. This man is the lowest form of pond scum anyone could imagine. I thank him for showing his true colors and leading me to someone that he could never hold a candle to. My life improved when he decided I was a lying snoop, makes me laugh now, knowing what he did. How dare he judge me. How do people that do these types of things live with themselves? How do they get up ever day and look in the mirror and be proud? If I ever in my life did something that low to someone, I would never show my face. I knew this young boy many years ago, and he was so kind and considerate of everyone. A decent, kind, and respectful human being. I never dreamed the level of low that this man has reached in his life and how repulsive he actually is. If I had know then what I know now, I would have never accepted the dinner invitation that is for sure. I know if he calls again the first thing I am going to ask is what doesn't any of your friends have a daughter you can call. Let me guess your friends won't allow you around their daughters, since you have a reputation for screwing around with your friends daughter and wrecking their homes. Then I am going to tell him, if you call back, I will tell everyone that we both know and then some what you did, you filthy scum. I will tarnish your squeaky clean image that you try to preserve so much. How dare you sit back and look down on anyone, you better get on your knees and pray to the guy up above for forgiveness with the filth you have done to people.

"She told me he had a an affair with their best friends daughter who was 20 years younger then he was. She said he not only broke up their marriage but hers as well. She said they were good friends with the girls parents they did everything together. She said when he did this there was no redeeming himself to me after that. She said the humiliation that was caused was more then she could handle." WOAH. He's a genuine, Grade A scumbag, alright (and a bit of a paedophile if you ask me). There's no other word for him. And, ref "for years I put up with his BS" - it sounds like he's passive-aggressive as well as narcissistic. She must be one exceedingly mentally tough lady because that little combination, right there, makes for THE worst marriage-partner material out!...and she suffered it for what sounds like *decades*. HOWEVER, saying that, you do, obviously, have to take with a pinch of salt what could by whatever degree be a biased or embellished account. Because, look, her summing up of the whole event is this: "the humiliation that was caused was more then she could handle". MWACK-MWACK-OOPS! Shouldn't the very first thing she said be something more like, 'What he did to that poor girl can never be undone'? I mean, she was a girl COMPARED TO THEM, right? And as such, that daughter would have put her trust in *him* about whether what they were doing were acceptable or not. *Actions*. This ex-wife of his apparently cared most about how it all made her look...and still does, to this day. "I told her he dates nothing but women that range 12, 16, and 20 years younger then him. I said that to me is a problem when a man can't relate to anyone his own age. She said he thinks its making him young again, she said the bike, the young girlfriend. " You two are missing the point. That daughter precisely *was* his own age! Only - technically and legally, she wasn't. Know what I think now? As a child, he was sexually abused...which then caught up with him. What do you think about that, then? Well, anyway, it does at least give you a giant nuclear bomb to make him back off for good *if* he dares contact one more time: "Why are you ringing me yet again? Don't you have any kiddies you can fiddle with?". BOOM! "Karma, is going to have a field day with him. This man is the lowest form of pond scum anyone could imagine." Guaranteed. Winging its way as we speak. "I thank him for showing his true colors and leading me to someone that he could never hold a candle to." Excellent. The definitive "I am over you and it" statement. :-) "My life improved when he decided I was a lying snoop, makes me laugh now, knowing what he did. How dare he judge me." It's not about judgement, not for him. It's about coercion using negative labels/concepts, and that's it. Morals...the sacrosanct...the sacrilegious... All just tools for getting what he wants. "How do people that do these types of things live with themselves? How do they get up ever day and look in the mirror and be proud? If I ever in my life did something that low to someone, I would never show my face." I KNOW! And not EVEN that low! Do NOT get me started! I spend my life in a state of indecision over whether I feel sorry for them or despise their very guts. Head says, Poor once-babies, heart says, Bleugh, get thee behind me, Beelzebub, unclean-unclean!, and the two seemingly will never be reconciled. I expect PJ feels the same way(?). "I know if he calls again the first thing I am going to ask is what doesn't any of your friends have a daughter you can call. " Ha-ha, I see you already beat me to it! "Then I am going to tell him, if you call back, I will tell everyone that we both know and then some what you did, you filthy scum. I will tarnish your squeaky clean image that you try to preserve so much. How dare you sit back and look down on anyone, you better get on your knees and pray to the guy up above for forgiveness with the filth you have done to people." GO SHANNON!!! In fact, that's gone and got me wishing he *does* call again! LOL Shannon Eastwood. "Go ahead punk....make my day". :-D What did Newbie say when you enlightened him about all of this?

Shannon: I haven't heard you say anything about motion detector spotlights being put up on your front and back porch, where I assume the video cameras are. The guy who broke my front windshield on the lower right corner, was unseen because, one I didn't even have a video camera pointed at my car, and two, even if I did I didn't have a motion detector spotlight pointed at my car so the camera could see at night. He did that, now only 4-5 months ago, which was after, 3 and one half years after he had been harassing me, and even with that amount of time, I still didn't even think to have a camera or a light pointed at the car. Which shows I was totally oblivious to what I should do. The security camera person, a one person dork, not a company, was a scam artist who charged me almost 4 times what it should have, and there was no tech backup if I didn't know how to save the video/audio recordings, thus a company being better than an individual. Also, I had a camera on my front porch/mailbox/street in front of my house, but when the harasser got my mail and scattered it, and my morning newspaper 2-3 times, I had it on tape, but I never thought to look at it, because...I can't even think of an excuse. Maybe one reason, I didn't have a Private Eye coaching me. Motion detector spotlights on front and back porch, a lot of people have those. A lot of people can put them up, so for some people, it's not difficult to do. Can also have a camera and light pointed toward your car, and a camera pointed at your mailbox, etc. Oh, yeah, you said no trouble for a week, which might mean everything is fine. It might not. My telephone harasser, will go a month, and then call again. I don't answer the phone, because the ringer's off, that way I can return the un ID'd phone numbers if they've left a message, which many of them don't, so they can be troublemakers, if they don't want to ID themselves on my tape recording. The bad guys leaves "number blocked/anonymous" blinking on my phone box, so I know it's him>" So don't think a week is going to do it. I would stay vigalent with the security measures in place. It's better to have his transgressions on tape and not need them, then to need them and you don't have them because you slacked off. I was not as vigalent as I should have been, because, again, I did not have a good private eye coaching me.

"Also, I had a camera on my front porch/mailbox/street in front of my house, but when the harasser got my mail and scattered it, and my morning newspaper 2-3 times, I had it on tape, but I never thought to look at it, because...I can't even think of an excuse." You don't need one, PJ. You had a perfectly valid reason. It's called, too much aggro already, need to give my poor brain a holiday.

Soulmate I agree with you he is the lowest form of pond scum I have ever seen. I know even though the girl was 30, which is far above the legal age of consent. This is not right to me for the fact that he watched this girl grow up, her mother and his wife, were best of friends all their lives. I can imagine how they all felt when they found out what was going on. He wasn't sexually abused when he was growing up, he has just become a very arrogant POS, in his adult hood, that thinks whatever he does is okay, as long as its him that does it. I did forget to tell you the ex wife did lay a ball bat across his head and knees when she found out. When she told me this I had to give her a high five on that one. You go girl. She said yes I took everything in the divorce, she said I told him, either I get everything or everyone is going to know what you did. Its up to you. She said he did me no favors I did him the favor by letting him off the hook from setting in a court room having it told what he did. She said she is happier now then she has been in many years and finally with someone that truly does love her. I think that is wonderful that she has finally found true happiness. I told her I have a new man as well he is amazing, I couldn't ask for anyone any better. OMG, the newbie, laughed so hard when I told him what he did, he said are kidding me, he had a affair with their best friends daughter. I said that is what she said. I believe her completely. He said this guy is a real piece of crap. Thank god you are not around him anymore, he said whether your with me or someone else, you deserve better then him. He said do not get me wrong I am very glad its me. Which brings me to a new point the newbies daughter thinks that I had something to do with him and his wife splitting up, which is not true at all he was divorced before we went out. She is not budging on her thoughts. He tried to reason with her and tell her that this is not true, she has even went as far to call me a home wrecker and that I destroyed her perfect family. WOW The newbie told her that is as far from the truth as it could possibly be. He said I did not wreck any homes, and that her delusion that their family was perfect was completely not true. I don't know what is going to come of this, its just the youngest daughter that feels this the oldest one when I met her seemed to like me a lot. The newbie did tell her, what you are saying is not true, and you will not disrespect her in that manner I don't care what you think. I told him after he took her home its not her fault she is angry, she wants someone to blame for the break up. I told him to give her time.

PJVL9 I have motion lights on the back house for a long time. The cameras I bought have night vision, motion detection, and voice recorders in them as well the record day and night, very clear video, in which I can take pictures from the video clips is something is detected. I got good cameras that will cover anything I need. I also, went online and downloaded an app, that allows me to watch the cameras even when I am not home. If anything is detected it will send an alert to my phone and tell the exact time that something was detected. I can go in and pull up that video clip and look at it from where ever I am at. I do have a garage but don't always put my car in the garage, the angle of the cameras covers my whole yard to the street. If anyone comes up it. I can see them. The camera on the back of the house also, covers everything to the alley, my yard is completely fenced with a tall privacy fence, with locked gates on at both ends of it. The camera on the back of the house was put at an angle and height that I can see into the alley who comes up or down it. I think we got it covered pretty good from all the way around. Believe me, I am not letting any guards down just because he hasn't contacted me in over a week now. Just when I think he will be gone for good, he will more then likely start back up. However, if he does, this time I am ready if he does anything stupid again.

Didn't realise she was that old. But still, it's more the fact she was his good friends' daughter, to whom he'd been a parent figure via, as you say, having known her since a tiny girl. (Ugh - creepy!) Apparently, nothing's off-limits or sacred as far as he's concerned. She, on the other hand, would have been rendered dumb via flattery. His type like them naive, gullible and easy to impress. For obvious reasons. Talk about candidate for dying alone, though. (You'd have had no idea if he'd been sexually abused though (or, granted, maybe just over-spoiled in place of having to actually parent). Think about it. He certainly wouldn't ever have told you. For starters, the fact, had it been more subtle than sexual or violent, would have needed to have dawned on him...and I don't somehow see him as a candidate for epiphanies because those obviously depend on ones acknowledgement of the [wait for it] truth. ...Catch 22, anyone?) His wife clobbered him about THE HEAD AND KNEES WITH A BASEBALL BAT? And blackmailed him? Seriously? Good grief, that's not very dignified, is it? Just LEAVE HIM, surely? I mean, you yourself know how much more painful that actually is for him, don't you. I mean, look at the MESS it's turned him into! Or rather, look at how it's 'brought him out'. In actual fact, the courts aren't interested in the ins and outs to that degree, save for 'Grounds: Adultery'. Again, they leave that inevitable to fate/life. It's just about dividing the pot to ensure the bairns don't suffer overly, and letting the perpetrator lie increasingly on the self-destroying bed he's made for himself. But clearly he believed her and didn't dare take the risk of calling her bluff. ...Not so when it comes to lack of self-control/violent assault, though. He could have won full custody with that one. Risk-taker attracts Risk-taker. Never mind, that was their problem. You, on the other hand, got the benefit of giant self-vindication (priceless). **************** "Thank god you are not around him anymore, he said whether your with me or someone else, you deserve better then him. He said do not get me wrong I am very glad its me." :-) This guy is true quality, isn't he. ***************** His younger daughter sounds like [1] she harbours reunification fantasties, which your coming onto the scene - someone whom she can plainly tell he's dead serious about - is standing in the way of. She'd be like that towards any new woman in his life, it's not personal. Also, [2] she might have grown fond of having her dad more to herself, the novelty not yet having worn off (especially if he's nervous about losing her approval and custody-visit cooperation by disciplining her as effectively as before). Thirdly, if she fully expects you to start to try to mother her, that'll make her feel incredibly disloyal and guilty towards her own mum, which bad feeling she'll pin onto you...and then, yup, try to (mis-firingly) justify. The trick, to speed things along a bit, might be (with Newbie's full agreement, collusion and cooperation) to give her a lot of attention yet simultaneously be directly instrumental in helping her secure/hang onto lots of dad-daughter time... the idea being to make her cotton on to the all too missable fact that she's not losing a dad but gaining an auntie or, better yet, older, sophisticated girl friend figure...which brings distinct and rare benefits and privileges. The 'campaign' needs to be customised according to her age and avid interests. So how old is she, when is her birthday, and what is she especially into? E.g. what's her favourite pop band or artist?

Shannon: Thanks for letting me know you have motion detector lights for your security cameras, which allows your cameras to see at night. I would still be thinking of ways: A. if he's still riding up and down in front of your house, you may need a camera for that road. He's not breaking the law, but he's showing a pattern of harassment that provable, if you have the camera and saved those times when he's doing that. B. That added to one or two other things (telelphone tape recording, etc.) can give a Private Eye something to knock on his door about. C. Something to say, "With this evidence, we can go to the police (and your employer and community is going to find out)." D. he likes, my word vs. your word. He doesn't like tape recordings and video tape, which can't be argued with. e. the more you have of this when things are low key, the more you'll have if things kick up. If you miss this when things are low key, you won't have them if things kick up. I'm down to one guy, who's house if up for sale. If I can survive until he moves, I think I'm giong to make it, at least with this group. The telephone harasser is still out there, but I don't know if I should change my number or what. I need to get a private eye's view on that. If I change my number, does he do something else? I don't know really what to do.

Any update, Shannon? Still no contact from Evel? Things with Newbie still going great?

Sorry to both of you Soulmate and PJVL9, I have been so busy trying to get my parents affairs in order, getting more things set up to bring her home. I want her here so I can take care of her, I want her here in her home, where she feels more comfortable. Yes the newbie, is a gem for sure, I struck gold when he entered my life for sure. He has been there helping me every step of the way. His daughter is coming around, especially since he told her, that I was not going anywhere, and she may as well get used to the fact that I am around. He told her it doesn't mean I care you for any less, but I also care for her as well. I enjoy spending as much time with her as I do you. He said you are my daughter nothing ever changes that and how much I love and care for you. He told her if you gave her a chance you would see she is very nice and you would understand why I like her so much, she did talk to me the other day. I told her yes I like your dad very much, he is a great person. I told her, but I would like to be friends with you, I am not trying to take your moms place, but we can be friends. I told her he has been staying here, I didn't go into details why. I did tell her she can come here anytime she wants and visit and stay with him as well. The ex, sure turned out to be a real piece of work. I just find it disturbing he would have an affair with someone that he watched grow up and was friends with her parents. An affair is one thing but not with someone that close to your family. I don't approve of it either way. I find what he did disturbing. Yes I think putting a bat across his knees and head, was actually to good for him. I think the way I handled things with him is so much better, to reject him in all ways hurts him more then any ball bat ever could. The golden ego doesn't handle rejection well. I have no use for him, especially more now, that I know what he did. It sickens me. That showed me there is no LOW that he won't stoop to. Thank goodness I am not around him anymore. I don't blame the ex for taking everything she could, she said it was either give me what I want or everyone will find out and know what you did. Honestly after 30 plus years of marriage, I do feel she deserved better then that. I can't imagine the humiliation felt by all parties involved when they found out what was going on. He hasn't bother to call or come by at all, maybe he has taken the hint for good. I have seen no sign of him on the cams of going by, maybe he has found some other victim to prey upon. I know the minute I let my guard down he will more then likely veer his ugly head again. Everything stays in tact as is, if the time comes, I am prepared for it. I did run into his mother the other day, as usual she was nothing but friendly to me as she has been my whole life, we didn't discuss him at all, in our short conversation, the newbie was with me, I introduced her to him. We went on our way. His family knows I have moved on now. They can see clearly I have not tried to cause any problems at all.

Cheers for the update! Good move - introducing Newbie to Evel's mum, it'll definitely get back to him (that Newbie's no flash-in-the-pan) and provide the final flourish to the overall message that any further attempt to contact, now *and* in the future, would be futile. ***** You're a good daughter. And evidently, Newbie a good dad. Love how he defended and advocated for you, as well as put his daughter's mind to rest so effectively that she felt capable of approaching you with an olive branch (tick!). It's all coming together nicely, isn't it. :-) Everything stays intact, as is... Does that include Newbie living with you or did you originally set an 'all-clear' deadline?

The newbies daughter has come around so much, and she knows she is welcome to come here anytime she wants as well as stay over with him, I mean there is plenty of room if she wanted to make her own room here. Not pushing for anything just letting her decide what she wants in her own time. We have only taken steps forward so that is a good thing. The newbie was only supposed to be here for about a few weeks to a month, things have went so well, that he asked if I minded if he stayed. I told him this was fine with me. Yes, I am sure that it will get back to the ex, that mom met the newbie. I am sure that will clearly let him know there is no chance for him in my life anymore. I don't even see a chance at even a friendship. I gave him that opportunity to step out and go back to being friends as we always had been, it was his choice to treat me like dirt. I don't think I can ever forgive him for that. What he traded me for, a barfly, that is 16 years younger then him. That is a bit hard to swallow being tossed aside after 6 months for someone like her, and someone who dumped him, after 3 weeks. I knew that was an everlasting relationship there. I told him that day, when she dumps you again in 3 weeks don't come calling me. LOL, poor ex, he just can't win. The ex wife puts knots on his head and tries to break his knee caps. The barfly dumped him to run back to her ex. Me I moved on and found a really great guy and flat turned him down when he tried to reconcile with me. Which has to be an ego bruiser for him since his main boast was how much money he made. He knows the newbie comes from money. That is not the attraction I have for him. Money is not important to me, its how he treats me. The respect he shows me. He doesn't have to brag himself up about what he has, its something that isn't important to him. I set back and thought here a few days ago, about the time I spent with the ex, honestly, I never realized that he didn't take me to do anytime accept go out and eat. Every plan we made to go do something he conveniently cancelled for some reason or another. Unless I paid for the event, like the concert I bought the tickets to go to it, he paid for the gas. He never bought me anything other then supper and soda, he was a real big spender that is for sure. I understand why he pushed the moving in so quickly, he definitely wanted someone to help share the bills. He can't afford anything on his own and pay his ex that big alimony every week. I thought to myself, how could I have been so blind to this when we were together. You don't see things until you are away from it. One thing is for sure he definitely was not and is not good enough for me. He deserves a barfly. Someone that lays in a bar every night while he has to get up and go to work. I would definitely chose that over me. What a catch. I do believe in karma and someday, he is going to get his royally, I think that payback has already started for him. The newbie and I saw him when we were out to dinner last night, and he was with the ugly ugly woman, she has big crooked teeth and a huge nose. Quite a beauty she is. Just what he needs. Funny how things turn out. I have to say, the newbie is really a very handsome man. I was really proud to be setting at the table with my handsome date when he and his ugly duckling passed by. Nothing like two middle aged people trying to be the ultimate bikers, and trust me she is not biker chic material. They looked completely stupid in Harley clothes and bandanas wrapped around their heads. Karma is definitely at work on him. I am not a super model, but I am very attractive and I definitely do not look my age. I pride myself on how good I do look for being in my 50s. I feel he is the one that lost all the way around. I got the jackpot.

"They looked completely stupid in Harley clothes and bandanas wrapped around their heads." The bandanas are probably to hide the sweat pouring off his forehead. ;-) But, enough biczy fun 'n games, because, Shannon, I note you've done something that *could* prove later down the line to have been a foolish move (not saying it will but it is a classic, textbook boo-boo that gets ruminated over by millions of broken-hearteds) : "The newbie was only supposed to be here for about a few weeks to a month, things have went so well, that he asked if I minded if he stayed. I told him this was fine with me." Shannon, don't you think this is moving far too fast? I know you're very into each other but - bosses can be very 'into' exceptionally impressive-seeming new staff; it still doesn't see them promoting (in terms of remit plus remuneration package both) said new member by an incredible two whole echelons - think, telephone sales exec to sales director - before he's even finished his trial period, does it? It takes *time* in which for the individual to prove those initial and OTHER, HIDDEN/UNTAPPED qualities - such as, longevity and consistency of performance (to name but a few). Do you agree that's just good business sense and a maturity of outlook, called reserving judgement? And that's when it comes to protecting mere monetary interests, whereas, this is your one and only heart we're talking about. What's Newbie's reason anyway? I mean, you say of the ex, "I understand why he pushed the moving in so quickly, he definitely wanted someone to help share the bills. He can't afford anything on his own and pay his ex that big alimony every week", but what about Newbie, now that you no longer need protecting from Evel 'just in case'? Does he not have a home of his own still to go to (as agreed)? Can't you take that 'things having gone so well', that 'enforced' preview, merely as wholehearted encouragement for when it's TIME and the relationship is TRAINED AND READY to undergo the promotion of moving permanently in together? Remember this from February 5th 15:42? : ******************************************************************************************************************************************************* "PPS: "When we get home I want to take things to the next level and see what happens there." He's gearing up to ask you to move in together. Tip: Don't. If he wants marriage, he can do it properly, all of it, in the right order. If it's too soon, then he can bide his time because you've got your whole lives together, ergo what's the hurry. Give it a year at least (or be the fool that rushes in where angels fear to tread, repenting at your leisure... you know the drill, right?). If you see no need for marrying (and why would you if you don't plan to have a kid together) then ask either for a civil or private ceremony (just the two of you...and the rings). But still wait a year. At least. It's a human test-drive. It's no good trying out a 'car' on only sunny days, along straights, well-slept and fed, little traffic, etc., etc. You've got to try it out through the hairpins, in sleet, snow, hailstones, road slicks, this speed, that speed, all gears, overtaking, maybe a deliberate wee prang or two to see whether the car can take it without exploding,... And he's got to do the same, with you." ***** And this, your reply, agreeing with that fundamentally important advice? : The newbie, doesn't want to move in he just wants to take things slow and see how things develop. I made it clear that I don't rush into anything with both feet, we need time to get to know one another on a personal level, the friendship has been there for years. However, we have never had the opportunity to be around each other on a personal level. That we need to take slow and see how it develops. He agreed with me fully on this, so there is no rush in to moving in, like with the ex after dating for 2 months." ******************************************************************************************************************************************************* So what - aside from stronger emotions and being able to tell he's not a prize beep like Evel - has changed since 2 months and 1 week ago (when he moved in after merely- what is it - since January? = 3 months out of the recommended 1 year minimum test-drive period/2 years being more optimum? Why have you abandoned the test-drive yet, effectively, still gone ahead and put a down-payment on the vehicle (relationship)? On a practical level - is Newbie paying a fair division of the rent, utilities and food? And same for all household chores (if you both work)? And did he offer (either one) or did you ask? The reason I'm bringing this to your attention is because of this: "I thought to myself, how could I have been so blind to this when we were together. You don't see things until you are away from it." I'm away from it, not capable of being charmed or influenced, and, as I say, just noting this giant veering-away from the natural order and rate of things. And here you are, seemingly making the same, two, recognised mistakes you nearly but finally refused to make with Evel. So are there any exceptional or extenuating circumstances behind why you seem not to want or have forgotten all about safeguarding this relationship's future by going by the book, to ensure you give it THE best chance possible at never having to end? Talk to me.