Hurting after split with bf of 11yrs

Hello, I'm 31 and earlier this week I came home to a letter written by my boyfriend of 11 yrs. He stated in the letter that he didn't know how to tell me what he was feeling and that he has been thinking on it to awhile, but that he was unhappy and he knows that he can't give me the things I want (marriage, kids) that he loved me but wasn't in love with me anymore and that it was better to part now then go more years and feel the same way. I've never pressured him for marriage or kids, I always thought that what we were building together was more important then worrying about what others thought we should be doing (getting married, bc we've been together forever) having kids (because you both aren't getting any younger). It's a hard pill to swallow when the person you think is going to be by your side for the long haul tells you they don't want to be with you and isn't on that same level of emotional attachment as you when you think everything is fine. He tells me that maybe a few months from now or a year or maybe never that things may change. How am I supposed to heal and move on From this when he's still giving me hope that what we have can maybe in time be rekindled? Another issue is that we have the same social circle and all our friends are friends with both us, being that we have been together so long we are a tight knit group. I don't want to make him look like the bad guy, I'm not about bashing and lashing out at the other person because I know this hurts him too, I'm just hurting because after living together for 10 years I'm the one who has to leave our home that we spent all those years building and now have to start all over again, still in love with someone who just wants to move forward.

to love someone and to be in love with someone is not the same thing - to be in love is to have "fallen" in love : it's an infatuation based on bodily chemical and hormonal reactions and we all know that that "feeling all elated and excited" doesn't last maybe your bf is in need to feel that "excitement" again and so he says he loves you but is not/no longer in love with you : could you both work at getting that going again ? he thinks he wants to get away to find it elsewhere but elsewhere he will maybe find the temporary elation but without the necessary love the art of love is about "keeping love alive" - there is the deep profound love we can feel for someone and that is something that just won't go away - but then there's the love the way it is expressed in every day : those are little things that will feed the affectionate side of love love is not immune to familiarity : familiarity is when the other has become part of the daily surroundings and habits - like a furniture you don't even notice anymore because it's there every day : familiarity is something to be aware of as a blurring of boundaries - everything becomes integrated in one situation : that's when people say "we're together now" familiarity is also when people overstep the boundaries of each person as a distinct person with his/her own life and allow themselves to transfer "stuff" on others - take it out on them - hold them responsible for things they should deal with love requires two beings to be able to merge now and then as in being one - but then be able to create a distance so as to reactivate desire : we all know desire comes from lack or absence all this is "the art of love" : knowing how to play the game of coming and going - giving and withholding - creating an edge - without of course falling into any manipulation and abuse but just knowing how things work in love for love to stay alive : it takes two to do this with awareness and wisdom - for if there's only one doing it then there's a real risk of manipulation and possible abuse which inevitably kill any feelings of true love : each person needs to feel heard, respected, considered, understood - both need to be willing to work at "making this work" so maybe you should both talk about this - find out what it is he now needs from a relation - as well as you : it takes awareness, maturity and objectiveness because otherwise one or the other will at one point want to run away or will run away to look elsewhere to find something or someone to wake him/her up to what love is all about - which will bring him/her to facing the same things at one point - but just with another

I'd echo Susie's sentiments entirely, including the 'very fishy' part (a man doesn't tend to vacate the 'nest' unless he has another already set up and waiting). I mean, eleven- ELEVEN..WHOLE..YEARS?... and all he felt you were owed was a LETTER?! Sorry... I know you probably don't want to hear this right now, but, that, I'm afraid, suggests the actions of a man who'd ALREADY moved on (mentally), and for quite a while prior to his 'telling' you, to the point where accordingly he basically couldn't be a*sed to give what was such a lengthy, meaty relationship a proper funeral. Ye gods, you poor thing. :-( That is so, so sh*tty. I mean, I wasn't even his lover yet even *I* feel like slapping his face for that! SO WHY DON'T *YOU*, is the burning question? Are you worried, with basis or just as a lack of confidence-based fear, that these mutual friends are actually fonder of him than you or that he'd try to wreak revenge if due to you these friends somehow got wind of this disrespectful treatment? Please don't pay any attention to his someday-maybe nonsense because this VERY 'old chestnut' is a mixture between wanting to back out of the room on tip-toe and keeping the door unlocked or wide open for a good 6 months or more, just in case any impending cruising expedition or new relationship didn't work out as expected/hoped, whereby he could then un-impeded-ly walk back through it for the purposes of using you as a stop-gap to avoid being single and without s*x-on-tap for any protracted period. In other words, position and preserve you for his own convenience alone and s*d whether and for how long it holds *you* back/keeps you single and available. Not only that, as implied above in my first paragraph, it appears he was, unbeknownst to you, using you in this fashion well before his 'realisation' and Dear Joan letter. You're not his consolation prize and neither are you a pickled onion! And he's no man, let alone gentleman... because - new love interest or not - there is such a thing as love in-memoriam, whereby letting you down is done as kindly and thoroughly as possible due to still being appreciative of your decade-long investment as well as still considerate of YOUR feelings and welfare, present and future, not just his own. All in all, then, ultimately, he's done you a favour (which you'll be capable of appreciating once the pain starts to subside): Next time, you'll undoubtedly think twice about agreeing to play wifey and doing all the work the role entails despite devoid of the corresponding wifely *perks*, unless and until the man offers to put a ring on it. Had he, you'd now have half dibs on that house and all other marital assets and possessions, which would at least be *some* consolation. Or might there be concealed anger and resentment in him as influenced his wholly untoward method? If you want to fast-track your healing then I suggest you dare get justifiably angry for treatment befitting more of a mere 6-month liaison. Anger is a vital part of the whole grieving process so if you suppress it you'll drag out the whole 'journey' considerably as well as risk an out-of-kilter explosion later on (or, god forbid, in your new and improved next relationship). And, let's be honest, it's not as if he doesn't deserve it or you haven't earned it. Are his friends aware of this highly inappropriately shoddy attitude of his towards you made manifest? Do you suppose any of them might think twice about wanting to continue to associate quite so closely with someone who could behave like that towards any long-term romantic partner, i.e. basically end it in 'absolute minimum' fashion from 'behind the sofa'? What's he suggesting - that you're "scary lady"? You don't sound like it to me, that's for sure. Or, his apparently being such a coward, might you have seemed scary lady to him?

First off I apologize as I know this is likely to be a long post. I've asked him straight out if there was someone else in the picture because if there was I deserved to know and he adamantly said "no, definitely not" and knowing his past parental history I knew it wasn't likely but the question still had to be asked, for peace of mind anyway. I previously gave a short version of the situation because as with all relationships there is always much more going on. I was more like blindsided when I came home to see the letter he wrote. He works nights I work days. I didn't call him after I read it I waited till he got home so he could face me face to face and say what he needed to say and to talk about where his head was at and what brought this on. I mean we've had our problems and issues and recently back at the end of September we had a bad argument but worked it out after a few days, not like we've never had these, I don't know any healthy relationship that hasn't especially after the amount of time we were together. Basically what he had to say was that he was being selfish and he knew that if he asked me to marry him that I would, if he said let's have a baby that I would and that knowing now that those aare things that he will most probably never want it wasn't fair to me to keep us in a relationship when I could find someone who would be willing to give me those things. That we had just been getting distant from each other and the last few years things haven't been the same. I know things haven't been the same, in the past two years I've taken care of my father as he was dying of cancer and then his passing as well as my grandmother who I was extremely close too and thought of as more of my mother who had cancer for the third time and was dying and her passing as well. So of course I'm going to be depressed and a little withdrawn which I've explained and talked to him about. Any of that would take a toll on anyone or their relationship. I'm now in the pi**ed off stage as I look at it that he again selfishly made a decision without my input. He says that he just doesn't think that it's in him to be totally 100% infatuated and in love with someone like I am with him. That it's not the splitting with me that bothers him it's knowing what he did to me that does. He makes good money so he has expensive hobbies, atv riding, race car, dirt biking ect. And he said he knows that I would have loved to experience those hobbies with him as well but he didn't want me to and he knows that that made me unhappy, the lack of things we would do together and again emphasized how he was selfish. I just don't see where it took him so long to come to this conclusion unless he's saying it to push me away thinking that his explanation would make me hurt less? If anything it makes it hurt worse and what makes it more raw is the fact that he seems to have already put this relationship out of his .mind and is going on like business as usual where I have a heavy heavy heart, sorry if any of this didn't make sense!

What on earth are you apologising for? 'Long post'? My own posts make yours look like postage stamps, LOL. Seriously, be as long-winded as you like! Jeez, are you too nice or what. I mean, not to say 'nice' isn't a good thing - course it is - but I think if you want less chance in future of finding yourself similarly exploited or victimised, as well as to be a more rounded and balanced human bean, you're going to have to learn to add a bit of hard-nosed-ness (including scepticism) to your toolbelt. Saying, that, though, I'm glad you're finally allowing yourself to feel pee-ed off (quite right too!). You may have asked him outright but that doesn't necessarily mean you're going to get a straight and honest answer, now, does it? I mean, what else is a cowardly type likely to say - 'Oh, ya, sure, absolutely, I've been banging someone else for MONTHS!'? Look at the evidence: you ALSO deserved better than a letter. Details don't really matter when revelation's to be found in the ACTIONS (or lack of). But, anyway, I don't have time to respond tonight, I just wanted to let you know I'd be back here again tomorrow.

Okay, I'm back... So we've established you were unlikely to get an honest answer to your 'crunch' question, meaning it can't be deemed as evidence *against* the suspicion of his already having someone waiting on the side when he ended it or even having been shopping for a new gf (online dating sites) and presuming imminent success if only he freed himself up, in order to conveniently lilypad leap seamlessly from you to her. Neither can you conclude anything from how disinclined his parents might have been on that score because plenty of cheaters/two-timers can be the first in their family to behave that way. Yes, they might have 'raised him proper', but that's still no guarantee against. So for now let's just stick to whatever more viably could stand as facts and giveaways. 1. Despite the type and tenure of relationship, he for some reason he couldn't spare the time or energy that anyone and everyone (including him) would always expect such an important, long-term partner to take over ending it. This is one of the things that suggests to me that he secretly was already done with you - and possibly, given the fact it seemed so completely out-of-the-Blue to you, suddenly in a bit of an unexpected hurry to have it all done and dusted with little fuss (for him) - ergo why delay or tax himself any more than was absolutely bare-bones necessary. 2. The fact itself that it was done by letter. You can't interrogate a piece of paper, can you. Neither can you persuade it against. You might 'demand' a full *debrief*, but that would happen however many days later, giving matey a chance to imagine what sorts of tricky, probing questions you might ask in order to have plausible fabrications at the ready, including 'is there someone else?'. 3. He dropped (and ran) in the morning after he'd already left for work. And you didn't call him that entire day. Had you, even the brief interval afforded by the time it took for you to reach the office and find a quiet corner would have given him plenty of time to go over in his head any plausible-sounding responses to all likely questions on your part. (Saying that, he probably did all of that before he even wrote it; but still your failure to contact from work would have given him more time to rehearse and calm himself, now that the situation was actually real and running, i.e. to put paid to any stage-fright.) His method could suggest he might even have HOPED you'd phone him at work (to make facial and gestural scrutiny impossible and make questioning time necessarily shorter)...and/or leave work early to go home to collect up all your things so that you'd not be there upon his own return later. Overall, then - 'question time' evasion or dilution was given every opportunity possible via two options. That does suggest aforethought. So those are some of the highly indicative clues. 3. He worked nights, you worked days. Perfect! His evening leisure and pre-bedtime hours would be, I presume, around about 8 to 10am when you'd have always long departed the house for work? Ample opportunity to surf the dating sites or conduct secret phonecalls or even go on morning coffee dates. So that's opportunity covered and ticked as well. Now motive... 4. "I mean we've had our problems and issues and recently back at the end of September we had a bad argument but worked it out after a few days, not like we've never had these, I don't know any healthy relationship that hasn't especially after the amount of time we were together." Precisely. Arguments don't cause split-ups (unless they're occurring daily or getting more and more out-of-hand, like violent, for example). People use arguments as their *opportunities and excuses* to split. And anyway, as you said - it was resolved. So that's immaterial. So seemingly this guy failed to open his mouth about his truer feelings and intentions, then. Secretive clam. Perfect, again! This is more like it: "Basically what he had to say was that he was being selfish and he knew that if he asked me to marry him that I would, if he said let's have a baby that I would and that knowing now that those aare things that he will most probably never want it wasn't fair to me to keep us in a relationship when I could find someone who would be willing to give me those things. That we had just been getting distant from each other and the last few years things haven't been the same. I know things haven't been the same, in the past two years I've taken care of my father as he was dying of cancer and then his passing as well as my grandmother who I was extremely close too and thought of as more of my mother who had cancer for the third time and was dying and her passing as well. So of course I'm going to be depressed and a little withdrawn which I've explained and talked to him about. Any of that would take a toll on anyone or their relationship. ....He makes good money so he has expensive hobbies, atv riding, race car, dirt biking ect. And he said he knows that I would have loved to experience those hobbies with him as well but he didn't want me to and he knows that that made me unhappy, the lack of things we would do together and again emphasized how he was selfish. I just don't see where it took him so long to come to this conclusion unless he's saying it to push me away thinking that his explanation would make me hurt less? If anything it makes it hurt worse and what makes it more raw is the fact that he seems to have already put this relationship out of his .mind and is going on like business as usual where I have a heavy heavy heart, sorry if any of this didn't make sense!" 5. Translation: I'm admitting I'm a selfish git and pretending I care about your sensitivities so that makes it acceptable [er, no, not if it doesn't gel with past events as leaves his decision a total surprise]. I have neither reason nor blame to actually lay at your feet so I'm going to completely fabricate problems and excuses out of zero basis aside from unconfirmed ASSUMPTIONS over the mere fact of your being a woman. And then I'm going to have you believe that it took me 11 whole years to finally wake up and realise that your inability to share my hobbies actually gets me down. What a crock. I think you're right to suspect he couldn't take what he (very unfairly) saw as NEGLECT... hence started shopping for your replacement. You weren't attentive enough for his liking, even in spite of the fact that you had no choice and no way around it, with the two pretty much back-to-back situations not of your control nor fault whatsoever on top. What a GROSSLY immature and egocentric attitude and reaction after 8 whole years. Is he trying to win an award for possessing a wholly narcissistic outlook? (No doubt WHY you said "he **AGAIN** selfishly made a decision without my input" - need I even ask what that was all about!). As for it not 'being in him to be in-love with 'someone like you are with him': what the hell did he *expect* you or anyone to be like 'with him' through that whole horrid time? Full of the joys of spring and, whenever not whistling a merry tune, giving him spontaneous BJs all over the house?! Frankly, I don't think your grieving period is going to be half as long as you anticipate at this premature point. Not once this all sinks in. What did he mean by this, though: "That it's not the splitting with me that bothers him it's knowing what he did to me that does."? Was that that other old chestnut that goes, This is hurting me as much as or more than it is you, aka, It's not you, it's me? Oh, really? I doubt that *very* much. Basically the underlying message sounds uncannily like this: I'm a fair-weathered, greedy, over-entitled ugger; you've ceased spoiling me, the sun's gone behind the clouds - SO I'M OFF, SEE YA! I take it that all of the above DOES now make every seemingly strange and uncharacteristic thing make sense? Well, good riddance to bad rubbish is what I'd have said. Because, like I say, he sounds like a total narcissist who's discarded you, with zero warning, like a used tissue, helped and fast-tracked along by (I suspect) having felt quite sure he'd finally cultivated a suitably fawning replacement to seamlessly jump to. But that probably won't make you feel any better (yet). So - are you now feeling things newly go 'click-click-clickety-click-PING!'?

Rainy you need to stop beating yourself up over this guy and pull yourself together. This is a man that left you a letter telling you he was through after you gave him 11 years of your life and built a home, this is the respect he shows you. After reading your thread and the replies to it. It appears to me as well that this man, probably more then likely already has someone to replace you with. His behavior is very fishy I have to agree with Susiedqq and Soulmate on that one. This friendly attitude is not going to get you anywhere but will lead you to more pain and suffering. The only way for you to heal and move on is to break all contact with this man. No matter how hard it gets or how much you want to pick up that phone, don't because if you do the pain will start all over again. You need to do this for you, so you can heal and pick up the pieces of what you feel to be your shattered life and move on. You have the same friends, of course you do being together for 11 years, you would. You can still see these friends, just don't go to the same places that you all went, find some new hobbies, make new friends. You don't have to bad mouth him or make him look bad, he will and is doing this all on his own. Your friends will form their own opinions anyway. Many will be around you to find out what they can about what is going on in your lives. The others will be there for you through this horrible time. You don't have to hang your head in shame, you have done nothing wrong. This man is a typical Narcissistic personality, everything is about what he does or doesn't want. I'm not seeing any signs that he is sorry and putting any blame on himself for this break-up. However, he doesn't know maybe in a month, 6 months, a year he may change his mind. This is typical hey I want to keep you dangling on a string while I am off having a great time, with my new friend, and if it doesn't work out. I'm keeping you around just in case. You are being left with false hope, just in case he may change his mind, come on do you deserve this treatment, NO. I recently went through a similar situation, in my case, I dated a man I had been friends with for nearly 40 years. We dated 6 months, and all was good until his ex girlfriend before me decided she wanted back in the picture. I told him I would back out of the picture if he wanted to be with her, and he assured me that was not what he wanted, he told me he would stop this. Well I thought he had, few months later, I went to reply to a message on social media, and a little box came up said he had become friends with this woman. I asked him about it, he assured me that I had nothing to worry about, they were only friends. I said fine, I trust what you say is true. In that instance I became a liar, was called names, said I violated his trust for going through his files. I was like are you serious, I violated your trust, you told me you broke contact with this woman, and what you are accusing me of is not true I can prove what I am saying is true. Well it didn't matter I was informed that she was his good friend and I was nothing. My attitude was fine so be it. I was blocked as a contact, banished from the 40 year friendship, the relationship was gone, and I was tossed aside like I was dirt. Fine with me from this point on I have had no contact with him what so ever, it will soon be 7 months. I haven't called, text, drove past his house, nothing. I don't go to the same places he does, I want no contact with him at all. He however, has spent the past 7 months, driving past my house, several times a week, even while he has a new girlfriend, he is still frequently coming past. I have even changed my phone numbers so he cannot contact me at all. I could call him and bring it to his attention that I have seen him driving by, I would rather not give him that satisfaction. I have since moved on from this relationship and I am now dating a wonderful man, that I am really happy with. My point to my story is I chose to break all contact and move on, I have healed and I am over the loss, for someone to treat me in this fashion showed me that our friendship and relationship meant nothing to him. So why should I beat myself up over it daily. I found someone that wants to spend time with me. You will find that when you break the contact you will begin to feel better about yourself, you will heal inside from your loss and it will make you a more stronger and independent woman. I am sure that woman is already there but his overbearing attitude has probably made you feel less then adequate through the years. I am truly sorry for what you are going through and I know it is very hard and seems unbearable at times. When you find the strength in yourself to say no more, you will also realize that this man is not worth wasting your time and effort on. I hope you can find something in what I have written that will help you.

Thanks everyone for the support and hard to hear wisdom. As it is I am trying to keep myself busy and looking into things that involve meeting new people so I can make connections not related to him. As it stands I have cut all communication with him and only communicate through text as I still have my stuff at the house and I have pets who are currently there. I have made arrangements to get my things out this weekend and from their on out I will no longer have contact with him. From here on out I will get myself together and "dust my shoulders off" and move on. My sister has been my rock through this and as she said, just close this chapter and open up the new one for bright new beginning. As hard as it is right now to think so I know that I can find someone who will love me for me. I feel like a failure now but I know that I'm not, I know that I'm a strong individual. My confidence and self-worth took a nose-dive because of this and I just need to find my balance again. He's moved on I need to do the same.

Crikey! Shannon, You hope? I know a LOT of people (incl lurkers) will have found that hugely helpful, thank-you! It's all very well for those of us who are older in the tooth or even just in the experiences to offer advice and support from our sunnier position so much farther up the life path, but it's rare to come across someone who's actually still only just coming out of, i.e. still countably *in* a similar experience, having her/his head screwed on straight with such clarity and strength so early. Most at that point need significantly longer to hug their own shoulders (when not bumping into the furniture) before they can even *think* of offering them to others, so, in case you didn't know this - FYI you're a rarity and, like I intimated on your own thread, I really do hope you'll stick around. :-) RAINY, Same goes to you, missus! Shannon's clearly got competition in the gobsmackingly impressive stakes! For you to have typed what you've just today typed,...that incredibly succinct yet comprehensive, coherent, logical, open-minded, philosophical, pragmatic, etc., etc., etc., THIS early on... not to mention everywhere else on this thread...? Put it this way: I know 'sounds' when I 'see' them. And you're showing them. I mean, you say 'as hard as it is right now' - DAMN RIGHT. And yet YOU *ARE* THINKING IT! To the point of typing it! So your sister is absolutely correct, you need to close this chapter ...and as quickly as (note, warning-warning) your natural, personal grieving rate will allow ...and, not only that, to feel free to be perversely GLAD underneath it all, every time you get hit by a grief wave. Because the highly characteristic noises you're making represent one thing and one thing alone: someone on the very cusp of ripe 'n ready to be bumped into by their No. 1 soulmate!... a man who's going to make Postman Prat, here, look more like his Black & White cat! It's far easier to face the whole truth now, anyway, than it is to go through however many more months of clinging to one giant or however many small-sized delusions only to THEN suddenly work out/find out the truth and then (ach!) have to go almost all the way back towards the start of the grieving path to do most of it all over again the right way... short 'n sharp far easier than chronic. (Not, obviously, that I needed to tell YOU that!) I'm pleased you've got a solid sister ready to prop you up (IF need be), but you feel free to post here as often as needed as well, even if just for a well-deserved vent whenever 'the contractions' hit. In fact, it would be superb encouragement to others not to hang on to nothingness if you could come back in future when (when, not if) you've bumped paths with your 'automatic upgrade'. And then we can all join you in raising a glass to this giant fool of a (cough!) man you used to call your boyfriend, for having inadvertently and unwittingly taught you in fairly condensed yet indepth fashion both what you want and need in and from a lover and relationship and what you absolutely, definitely, "GET THEE BEHIND ME, SATAN!"-LY, *DON'T* WANT AND NEED (ever again)! Trust me on this: when you meet your 'perfect' match (again - when, not if), he'll be so fruit-loopy over you that the situation will be reversed: *he'll* be the one insisting you two marry before he's prepared to co-habit! Diff/ALL the diff! Technically, through, you *are* a failure (or 'co-failure') - THANK UCK!!!!...Because little failures are merely the pavoirs of the path leading up to final success. So, really, save for a man-made, misconception of a word in the dictionary, there's no such thing as 'failure', only people on their way to Happy&SortedVille. :-) Or put it another way: you've simply been in serious training, learning golden lessons that you'll soon get to cash in. Again - far sooner than you know! And that, really, is all that's been happening here (albeit in the 'dark' without a torch): you 'growing out' of someone that, when you got down to it, was all along not nearly good enough for someone of your calibre and intelligence and what you were always destined to be partnered-up by. He finished it... you finished it... Father Christmas finished it... Nay - *it* finished it. For a bloody lovely, life-affirming, 'never look back' reason. Get used to smiling through tears because that's what you should be doing. This (little) stretch of pain, ahead, is nothing more daunting than your gauntlet run to getting it (him). SMALL price to pay for a beautiful rest of your life, right? :-) (Seriously. BOTH of you ladies: big kudos...BIG!....HUUUUGE!) ****** PS: I take it you've made sure he won't be there when you collect your stuff? And I don't just mean because he said he wouldn't...or promised faithfully (blah-blah-blah). I'm talking, CAN'T be there even if he wanted? Do you still have the front door key?

(Forgot to add: Hope you stick around to offer advice soon as well, Rainy...once you feel up to it, of course.)

Rainy, It sounds to me like you are on the right path to a better you. Thank goodness you have the support of your sister, your rock, the one who will listen while you pour your heart out to her. The advice she has given you take it and go with it, because its the best advice you could have gotten. The healing will make you stronger, more desirable, and definitely more independent. This ex, will then realize exactly what he gave up and feel the impact of the loss. You at this point will be far better then he could ever deserve. Find the one who will truly make you happy and give you the companionship that deserve. Soulmate, through all of the replies, I see you make, I have never seen anyone grace you with the fact that you are full of wisdom and advice and it does in fact make a person step back and give you the full picture of what your going through with blinders on. For this my friend, hats off to you for being there and helping so many people the way you do. You truly helped me with my issue. Opened my eyes to a few things that I didn't have a clue over. Your awesome.

(No, they do, actually (although not usually in those instances sometimes where I have to play Bad Cop and give 'em a bit of a reality slapping). And I'm not the only one, our other permanent advisers, equally wise and insightful and who've been here longer than me, in fact, are Susiedqqq and Manalone. But thank-you for the kind and well-mannered appreciation, which I shall share with them...and the man who's made all this possible, of course - our Richard. :-) We'd better leave the mutual appreciation there, I think. I'm sure I heard someone somewhere making retching noises, LOL. ;-))