Is my boyfriend bad news?

Visiting daughter and son in law out of state with boyfriend of 18 months and it hasn’t gone as smoothly as it should. My boyfriend feels slighted by my daughter and says she barely talks to him and monopolizes me. I don’t agree with this entirely and only see my daughter a few times a year. My son in law has spent time with my bf and all 4 of us have too. my daughter says she and my son in law think my boyfriend is taking advantage of me financially. He claims to be wealthy and I’m financially comfortable too but he seems to have an issue with spending money on occasion. My daughter gave us her car to use while visiting and that saved my bf from renting a car. While we only used it on occasion he never offered to pay for gas. When we stopped for gas and I looked at him to use his credit card after I had offered mine to my kids and they said we don't want you paying (they meant me not my bf), my bf said no and what's the difference? He did pick up groceries for himself but still ate their food and never offered to replace it. He also never paid for dinners until today the last day when I suggested it and he paid for lunch the other day when it was just me, him and my daughter. It was not an expensive meal not that it matters but quizzed me since I ordered wine and he asked if my wine costs that much. Either I’ve paid or my kids have paid for the dinners my kids also paid for parking wherever we went and my bf never offered. He directed me to give a tip to the parking attendant and said he had no cash but I should go ahead and tip the guy. My kids overheard his statement and were shocked. I’m not sure which direction to go. Right now my daughter and bf aren’t seeing eye to eye. My bf is upset bc he wants me to move in and thinks I should just tell my daughter but he doesn’t know she doesn’t like him bc he is cheap and unappreciative. I don't get it...my bf is usually thoughtful and has good manners. Could it be we were visiting "my" daughter so he didn't expect to pay for much? The purpose of the trip I told him was to get to know my daughter better b/c she didn't know who he was so you would hope he'd put his "best self" out there.

Um, wow. He should have offered to pay for gas. A generous person would have run the car through the car wash, too. He only purchased groceries for himself, ate their food and didn't replace it. Didn't pay for parking. Whined about your wine. You're staying with them, I'm thinking, so not paying for a hotel, and he only took them out once, and you had to suggest it? Cheap, cheap, cheap. It's one thing if you're only in town for a day, or if you're staying nearby in a motel, hotel. This goes beyond frugal right to skinflint. What's troubling me most about this is that at 18 months into your relationship, you really don't know what his financial situation is, and what he's told you is not backed up by his actions. I'm better off than my currect guy, but not independently wealthy. (As in, I still work a full time job at 66 years old with no immediate plans to retire.) But I knew, by a few months in, what the situation was. He also wanted me to move into his home - because it was in foreclosure and thought I could save it. I was honest about telling him why I wasn't going to be doing that. The home was forclosed on, it was sad, but I needed to look out for my own best interests. When visiting spouse's / partner's family and friends, we need to understand and accept we won't be the center of attention. It's going to be about their relationship, and we get to sit back, listen to the gossip and absorb while they talk over old times. All this is coming from a widow who has encouraged other widows to move forward with new relationships (if they wished to) and reminded them to remind their children that the kids won't want to be burdened with being Mom's only sourdce of companionship. However, you don't know much about Man-friend's financial situation, only that he *claims* to be wealthy. I didn't do this, but some people in their golden years actually DO look at one another's tax returns and financial stuff. With his words so at odds with his behavior, this is overdue. As for the importance of getting to know one another, I'm not of the same page, I guess. My man-friend's grown children live hundreds of miles away. I aim to be on good terms with them, but with the distance, we will not be a day-to-day presence in each other's lives.

I’m a widow for almost 12 years and turning 66. Trying to semi retire and thought I finally found someone nice that I didn’t have to worry taking care of. As kind as he usually is I found his conduct very selfish on the trip which he can be from time to time. I recall the first time he met all my kids we are at a pizza joint and when the bill came he asked me “Do you have this one?” I was a bit surprised but paid. Thank goodness my kids didn’t notice.

Hello MovingTooFast: You wrote: "I don't get it...my bf is usually thoughtful and has good manners"- reads to me that during the visit he saw himself not as your peer, but as your daughter's peer and was jealous of her, competing with her for your resources (time and money). Is this a possibility? Amie

I’m a widow for almost 12 years and turning 66. Trying to semi retire and thought I finally found someone nice that I didn’t have to worry taking care of. As kind as he usually is I found his conduct very selfish on the trip which he can be from time to time. I recall the first time he met all my kids we are at a pizza joint and when the bill came he asked me “Do you have this one?” I was a bit surprised but paid. Thank goodness my kids didn’t notice.

Yes I think there was some competing. But he shouldn’t have approached it like that.

I agree, he shouldn't have behaved like he did, but he did and so, my answer to your question ("Is my boyfriend bad news?") is.. yes, seems to me like he is bad news. His behavior disgusts me, and I wasn't even there. I imagine that your daughter and son in law will not respect you if you continue your relationship with him, move in, etc. Do you agree?

Honestly - what do you know about Man-friend's finances? Does heor rent an apartment own his home? does he still have a mortgage? Has he taken out home equity loans? Is he behind on his bills? You say he's thoughtful and has good manners - which is important. So is honesty. So is maturity. Acting peevish when your daughter wants your attention: for Heaven's sake, he's not 14, he's a grown man.

He rents an apt in a new building in a very nice area but I’m on the lease too because it was intent that we try to live together part time to see where our relationship goes. I ended up not loving the apt so now my bf wants us to find a house. But given what just transpired in our trip I don’t plan on moving in that direction. He claims he has $7million but he lives rather frugally but fro what he’s told me he travels to nice places and hotels etc.

Hi MovingTooFast/ SoConfused: What he claims is of no consequence, anyone can claim ANYTHING. I can claim right now that I am an Elephant.. or a God, but it doesn't make me either one. Look at who he is, not what he claims to be. Congrats for not planning "on moving in that direction", in ,, his direction, that is! Amie

People who end up with a lot of money don't spend it foolishly, but the behavior you've described is not frugal. It's downright cheap. Someone wh actually HAD seven million dollars can pick up the tab at a pizza joint. Maybe there's something in his past where someone used him for his money, but if that's the case, why tell you he has seven million? Something about this isn't making sense.

When we started talking about maybe getting a home together he wanted to share his net worth and so did I so we had an idea of what we could afford. He pays for our dinners when in town all the time so I don’t understand his behavior in florida other than I know he’s told me when he’s visiting family and he’s paid to go visit them out of the area he doesn’t expect to pay for their meals but instead they should pay for him. He does bring a gift when staying with family.

If I was **in the area** and stying for a week in a motel/hotel, yes, having the 'host' take me out for *one* night would be a reasonable expectation. Staying in a hotel one is paying for a private room. That's the business model. It's my impression you were staying with your daughter and family. That meant some inconvenience and loss of privacy to them. Under those circumstances, it is absolutely reasonable for the two of you to offer to replace groceries and treat your hosts, who saved you a couple hundred dollars that you would have spent on a hotel. [Gracious] guests have obligations, too. It isn't like your man-friend is an axe-murderer. Staying a week, eating their food, and not buying a couple bags of groceries is just, well, unappreciative. It's hard to reconcile his wealth with having him oblivious to ordinary good manners and being so remarkably tight-fisted. Seven MILLION dollars and an unwillingness to replace the food he was eating leaves me with a kind of WTH feeling. I'd be interested to hear what field he worked in to amass such a fortune. Also, since he says this is how his family operates, I'm curious, have you met them?

He’s a lawyer and got lucky when he retired from a big company. He works for the government now so pay is decent and benefits are great.

Have you met his family? are they like this, too?

If he dates you for the wrong reason like looks.

I think he doesn't have the money he says he does. I guess you haven't met his family? In his sixties (?) or so, he may not be close to them. Does he have friends? Have you met *them?* Seven MILLION dollars and - he's not retired? This doesn't make sense. He's BS-ing you.

He certainly is/was, OM. And ditto to being '*only 14'. But, then, lying and creating completely false Healthy Nice Guy/Prince Charming (MATURE ADULT) impressions/personas in order to beat 'their arse sliding or bursting out of their trousers' to the alter, IS what NPDs do. Same for why they get you prematurely involved in joint financing/guarantor-ing (at your eventual expense), which is to make you (by then, Slave) leaving them (Master) harder/slower, all of which they do whilst you're under the effects of Honeymoon Heroin (over-high Dopamine et al, effectively drugged, not compus mentus), *when he/it seems so good and promising that you'd do practically anything for them. MTF, my advice is to RUN if you haven't already. Here's why: Comparing his attitudes and behaviour to the myriad, classic, textbook, malignant Narc symptoms and signs (Red Flags) he's saved up (- which they do) to display during this important visit (asterisked - including any glaringly typical, victim behavioural symptoms)... 1. The biggie: He's *rushed the relationship/intimacy: - hence "MovingTooFast", - `outrageously-prematurely, therefore, *inappropriately, expecting your help and involvement in his finances, as I say, - PLUS *the fact you complied (the Sociopathic hypnotic effect as has you behaving, I can tell, against normally more-sensible type), - unreasonably expecting you (and yours) to foot even his BOG-STANDARD FAIR SHARE of the expenses (gosh, that must have been a short but very intense Love-Bombing phase?), as if you were long-marrieds with 50/50 share of all wealth and assets, - having grown *cocky enough - thinking he can, this soon in, *ADMIT to such *gross childishness and petty-mindedness as resenting your daughter (- plus that fact itself, given *total invalidity of basis), without getting fired on-the-spot (*him testing how far he can push you), - *violating by failing to follow very basic, *social norms and expectations - so too your even obvious boundaries (self-explanatory), which, his whole behaviour on that score, by the sounds, is an overly *abrupt AND chasmic departure from who and how he convinced you he was during Honeymoon period, - hence your having had expectations of a LOT better and more gentlemanly behaviour than that, *expectations that he must have cultivated in you through consistently-demonstrated, higher standards you during Honeymoon/"Love-Bombing", but from which he *too chasmically departed!, hence you 'just don't get it because he was...", - rushing fake intimacy ALSO with your daughter & son-in-law - important virtual strangers - acting like he's already familiar enough with them TO get in a giant huff with her (and her husband, automatically alongside, who's obviously a gentleman thus was too shocked dumb, himself, to "have a quiet word with him"), - and despite crammed (mainly...certainly to this open degree) into one weekend: we have a Pervasive Pattern (bingo). Despite this rushing, and over-entitlement so gross it's actually high rudeness aka obnoxiousness - any intimacy is too obviously, really just *Intensity (which are easily confused when you're the victim in the thick of it). That's 10 ways/tactics/symptoms already. I reckon this guy needs a cash injection, fast, and is in a hurry....strong echoes of Lily31's Auntie's Sociopath, "Von Crap" in Parents Split Up. 2. ALREADY he's creating *drama* by starting a war with his still-new, as-yet-un-bagged partner's clearly-precious daughter - *the sort of childish, egotistical drama you see on trashy, daytime TV soaps, note - *rather than trying to smooth/fix the situation, given he's supposed to be the senior grown-up with all liberty as well as duty to do so. Nope - HE would rather (all together now) *"Pour fat onto the fire (instead of water)". This missing Intimacy became obvious by the fact of your having expected it in the form of, his allegedly positive, loving feelings for you naturally spilling over/extending onto your daughter. Nope. He resents her, without any reasonable, rational cause. HIS cause is, he wants to monopolise your attention, like they do (making his accusation a case of *Projection). Plus, of course, the fact NPD-AsPD too-commonly features comorbidity with Paranoid Personality Disorder ('she's hogging her mum because she doesn't like me - I'll show her!'). This spells Pathological Jealousy and Possessiveness - comes under *Objectification. It's also an attempt to *Isolate you - from your greatest support network and source of happiness, confidence, energy, pride...all the usual joies des vivre. He's NOT, note, doing the 'Standard' Covert's tack of trying to poison your mind against her or vice-versa (Triangulation). He's doing it the Sociopathic way: *trying to make himself 'smell so off' that it's your DAUGHTER & SIL's decision not to spend any more time with him (meaning, automatically, you) if they can help it, or at least not to have him stay at theirs again...all aided by creating a potential difference of agreement and bone of contention between you and the kids. 3. He does KNOW he should have been generous that weekend. After all, he knew to fake it, previously, right? He's started to let you see under his mask at *18 months (18 months to 2 years is characteristic of a Narc Sociopath; 8-9 months tends to be the more sneaky and subtle 'straight' malignant Covert/Vulnerable, albeit that's my own, consistent observation). The Spath has to give it longer, get you more deeply hooked, because he intends to manoeuvre you into supporting his entire life, becoming his Living, as opposed to the Covert's aim of 'stealing/siphoning' your confidence/allure/reputation, etc' (i.e. more just emotional and psychological....basically, just less financially exploitative and manipulative and less 'bull in china shop'). 3. Over-entitled attitude: "What's yours (food/car/petrol/bed & board) is mine, and what's mine (my money and my groceries) is mine". PS: "As kind as he usually is I found his conduct very selfish on the trip which he can be from time to time." Straightened-out, this reads: As kind as he usually is, ...er..except for time-to-time, when he can be selfish - I found his conduct very selfish. = From selfish to *VERY. See what's growing and advancing and what's shrinking and retreating? 4. *Control via Manipulation and *needless Criticism: ruining your meal by complaining repeatedly about the fact you ordered wine and its type/cost... (You're too polite, MTF. I'd have drawled, 'Well, how ELSE do you think you're gonna be getting any tonight? Your mezmirising, gentlemanly charm?' (and then NOT given him any, anyway....'Aww, sorryyyyy, that wine gave me a banging headaaaache...probably because it was cheeeaaap'.) 5. ...which are, apparently, far more important to him than *exposing himself to the three of you as some *deluded, arrogant, over-entitled, Odd'Un who 'just doesn't work right'. (Again - because he can't afford the time...definitely in too much hurry to keep his Isolation attempt (Excisement, more like!) subtle and meted out in the usual drip-drip fashion. His were splosh-sploshes, in rapid succession.) 6. *Denying and Mnimising: (i) the nonchalance with which he executed his atrocious manners, and (ii) said justification (this is how WE do it) attempt. (After offending/upsetting you, the Malignant Narcissist denies and minimises, whereas, the Sociopath denies, minimises, laughs at your pain AND DOES IT AGAIN...just slightly differently enough, but actually, still in the same vein.) 7. Not wanting to spend his money yet perfectly happy to spend someone else's, i.e. *gets rich at other people's expense, by petty SQUIRRELLING, but lots of it (behaivour more commonly associated with your Covert malignant). 8. Superiority, arrogance, self-aggrandisement and thinking he's special, shown in his attitude over the car-parking, for example. What I read brought this to-mind: "Pay the man, Jeeves, and make it snappy". Suddenly you're his servant...minion? Who died and made HIM your keeper? (E.g.: he may as well have said to you in the car-park: 'Pay the man, Jeeves, there's a good fellow' - don't you think?) 9. His behaviour was at times so bad, in terms of against the VERY BASIC, social norms/rules of, not just etiquette, but, CONDUCT, it was shocking - each and every time. And came out-of-the-Blue. This is what malignant Narcs do....a series of shocks. This is the sensation of your Boundary lines/fences being shunted inwards, leaving you with a smaller perimeter and territory therein, i.e. less protection from his giant liberty-taking. The next time he does anything similar, you'll be less shocked...and less...and less....until you automatically become desensitized and then accept or turn a blind eye his (by then) constant malarchy (which usually includes his turning out to be a liability, both practically, thus knock-on financially, and directly financially (scams and schemes behind your back)). 10. *Competing with those they shouldn't, and where you'd think competition didn't exist (unless a bloke secretly wanted to be your daughter or believed you sleep with your daughter?....nah - Pathological Envy and Isolation/gearing-up through wanting himself all to yourself, forever, for-sure.) Competitiveness is the relational platform going with any level of Narcissist, but especially fierce (despite covert) with the Spath that wants to isolate you before picking your pockets and worse. They have to show their arse overtly in front of your friends and family, have to SHOCK them hard, if they want them to sod-off and out pretty instantly. 11. "I know he’s told me when he’s visiting family and he’s paid to go visit them out of the area *he doesn’t expect to pay for their meals but instead they should pay for him." Yes, BECAUSE citing that (although, he could claim anything), as if it's a universal etiquette, when it so bloody isn't - not when your hosts are saving you car hire, it's not (and that's even leaving hotel costs OUT of it!) - suits his typical, now-out-of-the-closet some, miserliness. So that 'explanation', featuring *minimisation* is attempted Gaslighting, for-sure - and doubly when you consider this: OBVIOUSLY it grated on you (hence you're raising it with him), and, surely he wouldn't want to go against your grain to such an extent? So shouldn't that be any normal, healthy bloke's cue for apologising at least for the clashing, dashed expectations, and suggesting a halfway-house plan of how to behave as a guesting couple IN FUTURE? (I mean - couldn't he have at lest warned you? No, because - no shock value.) Nope. Just BS justification. In with which (*so this is Overt-ness being used as a smoke-screen for the simultaneous, more serious Covert-ness), is this subliminal communique: *We live our joint life by MINE and MY family's rules from now on, not yours! (Coercive Control yet again.) FYI, when a man experiences falling in love, he should automatically (if he works right) have the urge to play generous Provider and Protector. That's far too many, common NPD-AsPD behaviours right there. Probably more if I had time to separate more 'threads'. He's a secret despot, is my opinion. You can dodge a bullet if you end it before you're completely hooked. In case you can't achieve this as soon as you'd like nor in the way you'd like - "But given what just transpired in our trip I don’t plan on moving in that direction." - start keeping a diary of all his bad and odd behaviour, including retrospectively from the day you met him. And note this: https://lovefraud.com/10-mistakes-to-avoid-when-leaving-a-sociopath/ "Ending a relationship with a sociopath is not a normal break-up. Sociopaths (people who could be diagnosed with antisocial, narcissistic, borderline, histrionic or psychopathic personality disorders) do not pursue romantic relationships in search of mutual love and companionship. They are looking for someone to use in some way — such as for money, sex, or to siphon off your emotional energy. Therefore, when you end a relationship with a sociopath, you can’t get together, hug, cry and wish each other well, as you might with a normal person. When leaving a sociopath, you need to be strategic. Here are 10 mistakes to avoid:" FYI, I wish your kids HAD noticed! And you do NOT have to feel embarrassed for some other (crippled) human being's bad behaviour and manners. The shame is solely and exclusively theirs. 'We all make mistakes', said the garden tortoise, dis-mounting the boulder'. In fact - NOT EVEN. Because 'your boulder' deliberately disguised himself as a 'tortoise', and for a good while there, too. And PS: "but fro what he’s told me he travels to nice places and hotels etc." Yuh. HE does. As you saw, he has no problem spending on his Royal self. And he can afford it because he dates generous, polite, empathetic women (and probably men) like you. I'm sorry he's turned out to be a damaged one, MTF. :(

PS: may I ask why you didn't continue posting as the Original Poster and instead created a new account and alias?

Sorry - typo/omission: "7. Not wanting to spend his money yet perfectly happy to spend someone else's, i.e. *gets rich at other people's expense, by petty SQUIRRELLING, but lots of it (behaivour more commonly associated with your Covert malignant, were it not for the fact that this ONLY SEEMS subtle and petty because it's him JUST GETTING STARTED NOW, in financially petty-scamming and growing richer off you. PS: He might well have 7m (or if we factor in typical gross exaggeration - 700 Thousand). But that doesn't mean anyone but him would ever see or benefit from a single penny of it. Their savings are for treating themselves (even then - meanly, pettily, given what they can afford), but mainly for eventually being buried in. This they achieve by (if he's an NPD Sociopath) always swinging it so that you (and god knows how many other mutually-ignorant gfs and fans) always, always, ALWAYS - somehow, SOMEHOW - foot the bill. If they pay for a meal it's for no other reason than the fact THEY wanted and were dead-set on having a meal out. Just not on their own (looking sad/lonely instead of The Big I Am). You may as well be a blow-up. By treating YOU as unreasonable if/whenever you try to take them to task over it, the message becomes this: I find your protests unreasonable. How many repetitions do you think a man would need before concluding you're (the) mad (one) and dumping you? This then gets capped-off with the ensuing, seemingly-random act of revenge (doing or failing to do/breaking an important promise), its timing refusing to cease nagging you to accept that Punishment/Warning is exactly what it is, despite you can't prove it due to one of their main tools, called, "Plausible Deniability". This censors future complaint on that entire score ("Walking on Eggshells"). Now you're putting up with it because you're hooked and if he dared rip them out, you'd be near-fatally injured. ...Or so he hoped. Luckily, the ones in this kind of (badly-hidden) desperate hurry (usually someone even nastier on their tail re. unpaid debt) are liable to rush their first-date assessment and profiling of you so end up seriously under-estimating their target aka New Primary Supply. Thank God you don't live with him or he, you. If you're still there - have you told him it's over yet - or created distance under some excuse?

I don’t know why my original account isn’t working so that’s why it showing 2 different ones. I haven’t left him yet since I’m still feeling confused. Again he’s typically kind and thoughtful and pays for us when we go out (but we split the cost of any trip) and I may go to the store and pick us up dinner on occasion. That’s why his conduct in florida is so perplexing. He was generally nice to my kids and family but then there were those episodes of being not gracious and presumptuous and although he paid for the 2 lunches he never paid for any dinner or car expenses or tips. I know he told me he felt he wasn’t wanted but I don’t see it that way. He was included in most activities. He certainly never bothered too hard to get to know my daughter and blames her for not trying. But she felt uncomfortable to some extent and he should have broken the ice since he knew I wanted her to feel more comfortable with him.

The worst part was when we had dinner with my extended family and each couple split the bill so all the men out their credit cards on the table but my bf didn’t so I had to.

I’m reluctant to end the relationship because I don’t think he’s lying when he keeps saying he wants to feel like he has a normal life again and that includes us living together full time rather than only on extended weekends. Can’t this be a legitimate motive? I don’t see him as a liar. Maybe it’s a combo of wanting to be with me and the fact I can pay half?

I’m reluctant to end the relationship because I don’t think he’s lying when he keeps saying he wants to feel like he has a normal life again and that includes us living together full time rather than only on extended weekends. Can’t this be a legitimate motive? I don’t see him as a liar. Maybe it’s a combo of wanting to be with me and the fact I can pay half?

I'm in my sixties. My Mom worked full time once we were in school. My GRANDMOTHER trained as a teacher, intendeding to support herself. Whenher husband died in his early forties, she went to work full time. I'm liberated, (whatever that means.) But if I was someone's house guest for a week, I'd be doing the dishes andpicking up groceries and treating them, and I don't have SEVEN MILLION BUCKS. And that he has that much and is still working is not logical. At that point, YOUR MONEY WORKS FOR YOU. Narcissism, whatever---it's just common courtesy. That's all it is. That's why I asked what it was he did, because I'm puzzled that he accumulated that amount of money whil being TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS to common courtesy, which is important when doing business with humans. Yes, he wants you to move in so you can pay half, because he simply does not have that kind of money. I work for a living, still. I can't afford to retire. It's nice that I like my employer, and my job. BUT if I met someone with SEVEN MILLION dollars who was this cheap, I'd pass. But like i said, I don't think he has that kind of money. I have another life experience to pass along: I'm widowed, too. I contacted, online, a man who seemed like maybe we could get on. We had conversations on the phone. He was retired, but he had a plan to support me if we got together. (Red flag, I know. And he was wayyyyyy older than he admitted) But at least he had a plan, made the offer. Your fellow, like I said, isn't an ax murderer. But he's for DAMN SURE lying about his net worth. Are you in the US? It's tax time! Ask to see his prepared returns. At his level of income, he's not doing them himself. (Heck, *I* don't do mine myself) Of course, you'd let him see yours, as well. He's not going to set the house on fire, he's not going to be one of those folks we see on the news, but honey, he's lying to you. He's cheap and dishonest. That is bad news. If he's was *just* cheap, I guess that's up to you - but I don't think that's the case. I think that's why you haven't asked for verification of his income. You KNOW it's not true.

Just an addendum: I get being lonely. I get it. If paying half (when his net worth is many times your own) is the price you want to pay for companionship - that's totally up to you. But in this situation, a more equitable plan is for each of you to pay according to your income. So for example, if your income is $100,000 a year, and his is $400,000 a year, you pay 20% of the joint expenses, and he pays 80%. Note that you still need to know one another's income to do that. Hoping the math is right. There's a reason I don't work in a bank.

Thank you.

OM & MTF (PS: feel free to call me SM), OM, "...if I was someone's house guest for a week, I'd be doing the dishes andpicking up groceries and treating them, and I don't have SEVEN MILLION BUCKS. And that he has that much and is still working is not logical. At that point, YOUR MONEY WORKS FOR YOU." Yup. It's bloody expensive having guests. I tell you what, though, both of you: *I* wouldn't have lent my car to (hypothetically-speaking) one of my parents' only 18-month-old (haha - double entendre) squeeze - no way, no how! My parent, maybe. But never some largely unknown quantity. TOO RISKY! And I know I'm not alone in that, either, not by any means. So - what greater sign that your daughter were making a BIG effort at welcoming him with open arms does Mr Thickie from Denseville NEED? Whaddaloada round objects, what he said he `felt'! No, he didn't. Narcs understand actions just fine! It's ALL they understand! They pay virtually zero credence to your words.) Trust me, he is just trying to Isolate you - so that he can get you to "get this one/pay the man, Jeeves" more and more frequently (drip-drip-drip) and to ever-increasing amounts. "Narcissism, whatever---it's just common courtesy. That's all it is. That's why I asked what it was he did, because I'm puzzled that he accumulated that amount of money whil being TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS to common courtesy, which is important when doing business with humans." Well, precisely. They don't have any, and show it "behind closed doors" (which can include the victim's nearest & dearest, closest allies). But, no, OM, it's not "just", and that's not "all it is". I've just finished laying-out how his attitudes and behaviours quite plainly align with those of NPD (and will continue doing so, as usual, for the sake of MTF, currently Cognitively-Dissonised ergo as yet undecided, as well as any readers in the same boat). I reiterate: it's rife now. So I'd appreciate it if you didn't leave yourself open to sounding dismissive and undermining of my time and efforts or the idea of NPD, generally. If you'd seen as many (mainly female) lives and old-age security (and/or health and sanity), seriously harmed or permanently razed by these malignant idiots as I have, you'd know that it's no trivial, ignorable issue - especially not when MTF is considering telling him she wants out (known physical danger point, even with those reported to having never previously displayed any aggressiveness whatsoever towards their partner). If what you meant, however, is that his degree of lack of common courtesy would be an instant dealbreaker for you, regardless of any other character deficits, then - absolutely, me too - but I'd prefer better care with semantics in that case, e.g. 'Even leaving aside any Narcissism---', if you please? (Cheers, missus.) "Yes, he wants you to move in so you can pay half, because he simply does not have that kind of money." YUP! CLASSIC Covert tactic ("Narcissistic Financial Abuse"). Myriad tactics...hence, Covert-Spath-Victim-turned-Expert Donna Andersen(sp?) has just brought a new book out, exclusively on this topic, including this 'man's' (so far -) one. "...BUT if I met someone with SEVEN MILLION dollars who was this cheap, I'd pass. But like i said, I don't think he has that kind of money." Hahaha - no way does he! Again, the "I'm a millionaire" line is such an Old Chestnut (particularly with Sociopaths). Plus, he's just finished PROVING, that, (a) either he does (but it won't be nearly that much) but is too hung-up on it to spend it, beyond initially splashing it to impress as perfectly generous, together with using it as a tool to act-out with (meaning, any so-called partner is NOT going to have a fun 'relationship'), or (b) he's short of it, HENCE needs to involve MTF in his financial affairs (said lease, etc.) and is busy "priming" her to think of them as FINANCIALLY a couple ("you get this one"). His rushing over that says, in debt/under pressure. Like you, I think (b). (Especially as I know that Malignants, especially Spaths, don't just use lies to convince. They keep and produce actual Props, including faked documents. Furthermore, by avoiding so many bills like that, it's like he was trying to (squirrel-ingly, note!) RECOUP the cost of those two (pff, big deal) lunches.... ******************** MTF, He paid for: two lunches (one of which he tainted/spoilt for you - and presumably everyone at the table? - by taking issue with you over your wine). You and yours paid for: 'car-hire'; petrol; multiple parking fees + parking attendant tip; food from the cupboards; all dinners out (save for the last, but which doesn't count as generosity/gratitude/social-moral responsibility as it wouldn't have happened had you not reached the end your tether and 'spotlit' him into it). I agree completely with Amie's "Look at what he is, not what he claims to be". ******************** (Back to OM) (sorry for the merging, Ladies - lack of time, still)... ...."I contacted, online, a man who seemed like maybe we could get on. We had conversations on the phone. He was retired, but he had a plan to support me if we got together. (Red flag, I know. And he was wayyyyyy older than he admitted)". Definitely two Red Flags ("Lying/Wildly Exaggerting" and "Future-Faking" - actually, 3: that all-areas "Over-Entitlement", by treating you as if you and he had got engaged already) IF, as I gather, these phonecalls occurred before he'd even MET you, or simply, still far too soon, such as, after only one or a handful of dates? "Your fellow, like I said, isn't an ax murderer." Probably/hopefully not, but, what is it that MTF's said that makes you so certain?" "But he's for DAMN SURE lying about his net worth. Are you in the US? It's tax time! Ask to see his prepared returns." Agree. If he's asking MTF to implicate herself in his finances by becoming co-lessee then she has that perfect right. And I think I'm right in saying that if he had a Bad Credit Rating, any joint "anything to do with money" would at the very least increase his (but lower hers)? Anyway, why would a millionnaire need a co-ANYTHING? If he's that flush that he's TELLING her he is, including the specific amount, why not let her move in for-free? Any rent share would be PEANUTS. I agree that NONE of what he's said on that score adds up with his (typical petty romantic conman) claim! Bet you anything, if MTF asked him that question, he would indeed come out with some BS story about past exes all being Gold-Diggers, leaving him once-bitten-twice-shy (until she's proven herself...however-long that'd conveniently take). That's the usual excuse. "At his level of income, he's not doing them himself. (Heck, *I* don't do mine myself) Of course, you'd let him see yours, as well." Wouldn't a person ensure that were done BEFORE letting them become a joint lessee? If he hadn't already, then, it's probably because it would mean, having to show her his. I don't know, though, because I got the impression MTF and he did compare proof of means or balances (clarify, please, MTF?. "He's not going to set the house on fire, he's not going to be one of those folks we see on the news," Again, what are you basing this confident-sounding certainty on? "but honey, he's lying to you. He's cheap and dishonest. That is bad news." Agree. And let's not forget, behaviourally Obnoxious - as a guest AND a new 'family member'. "If he's was *just* cheap, I guess that's up to you - but I don't think that's the case. I think that's why you haven't asked for verification of his income. You KNOW it's not true." I'd say, MTF suspects, as not all the knowledge as forms whole realisation is being allowed into her consciousness in one hit (too much to cope with). Same as you might have seen with Heisenberg's aftermath, in "Am I In The Wrong Here? Should I Apologise?" What adds to the problem is that they do an highly convincing Good Guy/Gal act - especially at the start, when (and aided by the fact) you're under the influence of "Honeymoon Heroin". ************************************************* MTF, "I’m reluctant to end the relationship because I don’t think he’s lying when he keeps saying he wants to feel like he has a normal life again and that includes us living together full time rather than only on extended weekends. Can’t this be a legitimate motive?" Not after a whole series of bad, haughtily selfish behaviours, including inadequately-masked acts of hostility, like that, towards your precious daughter and son-in-law (and whomever else was there, as indicated) - along with his alleged-situationally-odd request (co-lessees) - and the prior pizza restaurant incident and "some time" selfishness prior to all of this - no. Plus, who says that when he says normal life, means he's normal thus doing it for love, rather than convenience or to get somewhere/gain something unrelated and purely self-serving? We've already seen him "self-serving" - right? The groceries he bought for only himself (- what, couldn't even chuck in a big box of chocs or bottle of wine for everyone?). And it's about what the lack of courtesy centres around and looks like: his getting to successfully avoid spending HIS money (if/when he doesn't want to) proving itself so much more important than allowing you lot to think of him as highly ill-mannered). Money, material possessions, assets - all without having to work to earn...the Narc's first and only love(s). "I don’t see him as a liar. Maybe it’s a combo of wanting to be with me and the fact I can pay half?" I do, but then I've probably witnessed more liars than you've had hot dinners AND seen where ignoring Red Flags just because you're seeing only a small section of one and its the first you've seen it, leads you. You're not confused per se, despite it feels like it to you at the moment. Just relucant to end the relationship...YET. Fair enough, it's not an easy decision after night-on 2 whole years (especially when, usually, it's been so full-on and intense compared to normal). Just because you might agree (partially or wholly) cognitively, or keep pendulum-ing between He's Ok Really and No He's Not doesn't mean the attachment and resultant feelings you've developed (for the Nicer Guy) are going to just suddenly, instantaneously, cease, like turning off a faucet. While still attached and embroiled, it's common for targets think these comparitively small iceberg tips suggest nothing intimidatingly worrying underneath, whereas, I'm able to match tips to what size and shape ACTUALLY lies beneath, not least because I'm not the one who's influenced by my emotional investment and not wishing to walk away from it unless REALLY sure you're doing the right thing. These aren't complicated tips/Red Flags he's started revealing (- of all the occasions in all the world, he had to pick that one, eh? -), they're perfectly bog-standard. Coverts, especially, are famous for financial abuse as both a form of victim-encarceration and power-trip: bribery, creating victim-dependancy/addiction under the veil of regular, generous, provider-style handouts; blackmail, exploitation, extortion...whatever it takes (nothing is sacred). Secretly, underneath the mask of normality/sanity, they have nothing else in life to enjoy or gain satisfaction from. You can Google them yourself. E.g. list of ways Narcissists financially abuse. ************************ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/love-in-the-age-narcissism/202103/can-t-buy-me-love-narcissists-and-financial-abuse "Another way of exercising financial abuse is ***refusing to contribute to shared expenses**** ((- see, MTF?, it's started, look)), repairs, or utilities. The burden of paying the mortgage or rent, coming up with the money to replace a hole in the kitchen floor, or even funding a family vacation will fall to just one partner in a relationship: the non-narcissist. This same narcissist will also most likely have a secret bank account and shame the other partner for their spending habits." ********* "Future Faking is when a person lies or promises ((even by implication of claiming to be a multi-millionnaire)) something about your possible future in order to get what they want in the present. It could be as basic as promising that they will call you later, and then never calling. Or it can be promising to go on a vacation with you, and then never taking any steps to make that happen. Or even promising to marry you, carry you off into the sunset, and living happily ever after, all in order to make you complacent and to control you in the present. In the hands of a skilled manipulator, future faking preys on your dreams and goals in order to fabulate a possible future so that they can string you along in the now. These promises are destined to be broken, and can be seen as a form of overpromising and underdelivering." ************************ He's therefore already over-promised and under-delivered. Claiming to have 7m OBVIOUSLY generates suitably high expectations in you - like not behaving like someone on ruddy Universal Credit but whom got a birthday cheque from their mum with a card that read, 'Buy yourself some nice treats', and took it too literally. If he really didn't want to find himself expected to be the "treater" during an outing with someone(s) ostensibly CONSIDERABLY less wealthy than him, THEN WHY ON EARTH TELL YOU AND/OR (fake?) SHOW YOU HE'S RICH, EVEN CITING/SHOWING THE EXACT AMOUNT? WHY NOT SAY NOTHING (or, if he really had to, just, I'm Comfortable.)? At least until such time as it BECOMES your business. It's a lure. Reckon he's not even 'comfortable' (or if he is, as I say, he'll be stitching a quilt out of it, to be buried in, while he lives off your credit-card). YOU'RE the "millionnaire". They project ALL THE TIME. He thinks YOU'RE the millionnaire...hence wanting you on the lease, and FORCING you into situations where you have to use YOUR money and credit card lest you end up embarrassed and humiliated...just basically highly uncomfortable... in front of your family. That's COERCING you. He's made it your business to know "his bank balance" because, secretly not very well off at all, he wants you to act according to the unconscious human relationship rule, called, RECIPROCATION. Normally, with his true financial status, he couldn't afford you, you see. Sociopaths are actually not that far off bums living and scamming on the street, but they've learned how to put on a convincing veneer - how to talk, dress (from off the back of a lorry), the type of apartment they rent (but never actually pay rent for). These, FYI, are the types that think because credit card companies "can afford it", that means they don't ever have to actually pay off their card balance. Clever (in a stupid, 'perishable goods' way), isn't he? It's always in the actions, though. His case - bum is as bum did. Sponged off you. And your daughter. Then you again.....again, again, again. And the sponging extent, severity (downright chutzpah!) becomes XXXX-fold if it's TRUE that he IS better-off than you. And what kind of man tells you his bank balance less than 2 years in when you're not even cohabiting yet (DON'T!), let alone engaged or married?! That's a "Gotcha". https://psychcentral.com/blog/psychology-self/2019/09/narcissist-future-faking#1 How Narcissists Use Future Faking to Manipulate You - By Darius Cikanavicius on September 16, 2019: "...Essentially, the manipulator will take very little action, if any, towards keeping their promises. Instead, they will keep promising and using other forms of coercive control, passive and active abuse, until you find yourself in such a state that it is easier to go along with whatever the manipulator wants. So future faking is, fundamentally, promising a future that the manipulator has no intention of acting towards, making promises that they wont keep. Instead, they distort reality to get what they want from you now. Examples of Future Faking Example #1 Your new boyfriend or girlfriend has swept you off your feet. You have so much in common. They must be the one! You really want to buy a house within the next year and so do they. You two decide to do it together. You both start looking at houses, talking endlessly of the perfect house, the perfect yard, and the perfect dog. Even babies! As far as you can see, there are no clouds on the horizon and it is smooth sailing ahead. You fall more and more in love. Yet, after six months they have not saved up any money. In fact, you have found out that they are in massive debt but youre not really sure why. They eat out all the time, buy expensive electronics, yet never seem to work. But youre in love with them, and they promise that from now on they will change, start to save money, and you guys will have the house, the yard, and the dogand babies! You decide that maybe this whole thing can wait. Love conquers all after all.... ...How Does Future Faking Work? Narcissists and others who possess manipulative tendencies lie, but it is the nature of the lie to pay attention to here. In this case, future faking speaks to our hearts. Our heartfelt desires, whether about marriage, children, work, happiness, traveling, fun times, anything really, and our heartfelt desires become weaponized in order to control us. Eventually, the depth and the breadth of the lie keep you tethered to the manipulator. When you become wise to their broken promises, they may occasionally take some action to prove that its not as bad as you think. But as soon as you feel comfortable again, it is only more of the same. This appeal to our emotions is so strong that it may truly fracture our concept of reality over time. By the time you have caught on, you may have sunk so much time, emotion, and energy into the relationship that you are unwilling and maybe even unable to disentangle yourself from the future faking spun around you. You simply go along with the manipulator because it is easier at this point. The Consequences of Future Faking This kind of manipulation is extremely harmful. Cognitive dissonance, self-erasure, feelings of helplessness and hopelessness, and of course, the feelings of loss for something that the manipulator never intended you to have all produce long-term, rippling consequences. The manipulator may or may not believe their own lies, but your belief in their future faking appeals to their ego. If you stop believing them or call them out on it, they may lash out at you and force you into complacency. They may try to blame you and make you feel bad so that you would stay where you are. And if you become complacent, they will then know that they can get away with it. They will keep future faking until you dont accept it. What Should You Look out For? Narcissists and other manipulators are good at lying and pretending. Be mindful and critical of anything anyone says that seems too good to be true. Whether its coming from a prospective partner, a colleague, a boss, a family member, or even a friend. If someone habitually and repeatedly talks about the future in order to make you complacent now, ask questions and dont let them distort reality. Observe if they work towards it, ask them to explain their plan, ask for updates, dont accept too many excuses, and see if its going in the right direction. If you see that its likely just lies with no substance behind it, its just future faking and you will never have it, so act accordingly." ********************************** In fact, choosing that weekend of all occasions, to behave like that, is another Old Chestnut...seen it a hundred times, including many of my own exes (into ex-guinneapigs). He got "two for the price of one" there, though ALSO doing the classic, called, "Ruining Special Occasions" (or putting a dampener on). Unenthusiastic 'Ta-daa'. You need to do some surfing, see where you recognise him by the myriad symptoms per life area (money, romance, sex...). The more you learn while Time, that other great healer, passes, the more easily and speedily you'll start to detach and get those hooks removed enough, so that the split won't break your heart and future hopes, and knock you for 6(66). In the meantime, keep this thread active and use it as a diary of events/incidents if you like; you'll find it'll help massively to see everything written down in one place like that (Rap Sheet). And I highly recommend you do not sign a thing nor move in with him (using whatever excuse(s) you can think of to keep him stuck on the spot, merely maintained where he is). At the very LEAST, see it like this: Ok, normally he doesn't have a problem sharing (or contributing more befittingly to) relationship costs. However, what happens, once he learns the true extent of his target-victim's closeness of relationship with her daughter and finds that threatens his aim to keep you to himself, is that he starts using his money, including inappropriate withholding, as his 'expenses equalising' tool as well as under-your-radar punishment method. (After all, had YOU been paying for that meal with wine, instead of him, he wouldn't have had the OPPORTUNITY to start pecking at you at the table. I presume he'd willingly OFFERED to foot that particularly meal, did he? Funny, that... Who treats someone to a meal but then sets about guilting them over it? Answer: Covert Narc, possibly Narc Sociopath.) Don't worry. Just keep reading up and finding similarities (but saying nothing) - or not. If not, then maybe a very serious, formal sit-down talk might put him back on track? Dare to put him to the test in your mind. PS: How HELPFUL of him to have given your daughter the opportunity to get to know him and his number SO much better than before, which, clearly, she did. I expect she likes him even LESS, now, yes? PPS: Re. feeling torn (Google something like, "NPD victim - Cognitive Dissonance" in the meantime). That'll settle in the coming weeks/months as you digest and collate this information and your recent experience. Your mind will then have created a new frame of reference alongside the previously-solitary one for normal, healthy individuals, meaning, iffy behaviour will from now on know exactly where to swiftly go (think Filing Tray and File Binder), and no longer get misplaced into the latter. PPPS: Your daughter and son-in-law will respect you just fine if you tell them what I and OM have told you about what's wrong with him at least, and very wrong with him at most. (Neither are good.) FY yours and their I: some women, after the crucial 18 months point (where you keep or reject), if they go past it, need quite a few run-up attempts before they manage to end the relationship and get clean away, successfully, therefore, permanently. I can already tell that won't be you because, where respect is concerned, it's YOU who's lost too much respect - FOR HIM. You and your mini-me(s) are clearly generous people, which, although a positive - because it's still somewhat an prominant and familiarly-central attribute, usually means, you CANNOT find happiness with your 'negative'. You just need to take your time as you SEEM to proceed (but secretly with caution), meanwhile pretending nothing's wrong...nothing to see here, tum-tee-tum... and deleting your History here if he ever borrows or could have access to your device(s).

Excuse any repetition - it's late and I'm cream-crackered!

Oh, I don't think the old coot was future-faking me, SM. I'm a catch! (Though, admittedly, an acquired taste) I think he did genuinely want to take care of me, and I'm low maintenance. Someone of modest means COULD take care of me. I just had no interest in taking up with a man old enough to be dating my Mom! Now I DID have an educational experience with a later would-be-beau. He- how to put this - he hinted that he was well off and *I* would be taken care of once he passed. But oh! the timing of his hinting was telling. When I was pulling back from the relationship, he was saying his sons were well-off and didn't need anything from him. When thing were going well between us, he'd say, oh, they wouldn't understand if he left me everything. He had a drinking problem. Made it harder to keep the story line straight. Well, harder for *him.*

In other words, he did have a little bit of money, quite comfortable. But I don't like being manipulated. I wasn't going to hook up with an alcoholic [been there done that] He thought he was a great cook, and he wasn't. I am a believer in God and he is an atheist. One evening we were having a deep, getting to know one another conversation, and he said, "You know, you're really smart, for a theist." Who says that to someone he's trying to woo?

It’s taken a long time for me to find someone who is well educated and is a professional like me. His friends and family are well grounded and very nice to me. He is on the quite side which I like and we have many common interests. And we are both healthy for our age and ready to retire. But I’m really at my breaking point. I feel so torn. Part of me cares for him a great deal and I know (or it appears) he feels the same way about me. At the same time I don’t know if I can move forward with someone who is sort of tight with money (sometimes and apparently with my family as well as not being particularly curtious and seems jealous of my attention to my daughter when visiting with her) and doesn’t do anything special for me. I used to do things as a surprise like making him cookies or buying his favorite bread but when he never reciprocated (not even with flowers although I hinted several times) I stopped doing it. I know he expects me to pull my weight financially so I don’t have an issue with paying half of trips since he pays for most of our dinners out but I’ve been paying half of the apt and still am even though I only go 2 weekends a month. He did say that once the lease ends in July he’d get a 1 bedroom and pay on his own.

One other thing that’s even more concerning. He has been making plans for us without asking me many times. Include dinners out with his friends for us, exercise classes and the like. He also promised to take turns in weekends in terms of going to his place or mine. But the last few weekends I’ve had to go there since he makes these plans. Who made him in charge?

Roger all of that, OM. PS: ""You know, you're really smart, for a theist." Who says that to someone he's trying to woo?" A rather dense manipulator whose favourite manipulation tool is the Bible. For a start, it's 'an aetheist' (or was that a typo?) ************************************************************************************** Hi again, MTF/SC, "It’s taken a long time for me to find someone who is well educated and is a professional like me. His friends and family are well grounded and very nice to me. He is on the quite side which I like and we have many common interests. And we are both healthy for our age and ready to retire. " I know. It's so damn frustrating and disappointing. "But I’m really at my breaking point. I feel so torn. Part of me cares for him a great deal and I know (or it appears) he feels the same way about me." Yes, but he behaved like a mean & miserly, bossy a-hole RIGHT during the weekend you especially wanted to go well. ...self-centred B***ard. Even if he isn't like that all the time, these things can start off feeling like a merely-slightly-annoying pebble in your shoe, but, before you know it, feels like walking on a shard glass. I always put it like this: "So he loves me. But WHAT loves me!" It wouldn't be a love you could benefit from, however. Because, really, you want a WORKING model who could put you FIRST...or at least joint-equal....LIKE, bearing in mind how important it wouldbe to you that he make a good impression on your daughter to prove her misgivings wrong. Instead... But, it's natural to feel torn. It was only recently that his behaviour burst your bubble...take time for what you FEEL to catch up with what you KNOW (always does). And it's not as if you have a stop-watch on you. All I'm saying is, don't allow yourself to grow closer to him until you've had a chance to stand back and properly appraise him - without the Hope-tinteds. Or TRY the serious sit-down talk? See if it works (and for long enough, i.e. he doesn't revert as soon as you seem happily convinced again). "At the same time I don’t know if I can move forward with someone who is sort of tight with money (sometimes and apparently with my family as well as not being particularly curtious and seems jealous of my attention to my daughter when visiting with her)" Yup. But THIS NEXT is a new one? Well, newly told, I mean: "and doesn’t do anything special for me. I used to do things as a surprise like making him cookies or buying his favorite bread but when he never reciprocated (not even with flowers although I hinted several times) I stopped doing it." Oh good grief - so it's FAR worse than just miserliness with MONEY? He's just mean on every level? He just doesn't reciprocate. You can't do a THING with that, can you. Well, do you want a warm corpse or a real live man? Whilst this guy's occupying the seat beside you - including the version in your head that you vibe out wherever you go - no other DECENT bloke is going to want to sit on the effer's lap, now, is he. (Logical - yes?) And while you're WAITING to meet a new, better man, there's Whitney''s mantra (had she only followed it herself, but that's another discussion): "I'd rather be a-lone than un-ha-ppy". "I know he expects me to pull my weight financially so I don’t have an issue with paying half of trips since he pays for most of our dinners out but I’ve been paying half of the apt and still am even though I only go 2 weekends a month. He did say that once the lease ends in July he’d get a 1 bedroom and pay on his own." Frankly, at his age/the era he grew up (and got trained what to take pride in), he *shouldn't* expect you to. Wait a minute - more new data! You've been paying half the apartment - what is it, rent or mortgage? Before even having moved in or even set a move-in date? WHY? Right. You need to get yourself removed from that lease - or is it leasehold? - confirm? Pretend something's come up and you need that monthly sum going to you. Do your daughter and son-in-law know this bit?

"One other thing that’s even more concerning. He has been making plans for us without asking me many times. Include dinners out with his friends for us, exercise classes and the like. He also promised to take turns in weekends in terms of going to his place or mine. But the last few weekends I’ve had to go there since he makes these plans. Who made him in charge?" Oh, good grief GOOD GRIEF! He thinks he's your dad and keeper! ALREADY! You haven't even moved IN with him - what the eff is he going to be like once you do!! I mean - WHAT-AH? Who the phuh does he think he is!?! Massive Controller Alert!!! Oh, MATE. Just pretend everything's okay, see your solicitor or financial advisor or bank manager or whoever and get them to remove you from paying his sodding rent. Excuse French, but REALLY! What kind of man DOESN'T say, But we'll time it for once you move in. Or, As you haven't moved in yet it's only fair that I reimburse you each month before you do. OR, as you haven't moved in yet it's only fair IF I PAY FOR ALL THE MEALS AND THIS WEEKEND.... Eeeeeeeeeee....missus. I do not like this guy. Right - Plan: get yourself removed, without even telling him, and when he confronts, you just tell him you got cold feet, and were going to tell him but didn't know how (cue string section), that you've realised it's a bit soon to commit to that degree, you're maybe not quite as over your baggage as you thought, but it's not personal to him, yadder-yadder. OR you just need the money for something else (make it up, who cares!). A gentleman would understand and not push it...give you time to (cough) better adjust/catch up to yourself. See how this guy deals with it.

OM, what are your thoughts after this latest?

I’ve been paying half because we rented it together last spring with the intent I live there at least half each week and then full time but I decided not to sell my home so fast and then I wasn’t comfortable in the apt I don’t know why. I spoke to him later today and told him I wasn’t interested in looking for a new home at this time so he was welcome to visit me so he is. I also told him while I appreciate him making plans for us he shouldn’t do so without discussing it with me. So apparently the dinner plans he made this weekend he’ll have to cancel. Not my problem. He’s coming to me tomorrow for the weekend. I’ll get my thoughts together but intend to be frank.

OMG, how did I miss this bit!... "He did say that once the lease ends in July he’d get a 1 bedroom and pay on his own." Well, that proves it! He can't afford a two-bed on his own, this Mr Seven Million! (WHAT A CROCK.)

"I’ve been paying half because we rented it together last spring with the intent I live there at least half each week and then full time but I decided not to sell my home so fast and then I wasn’t comfortable in the apt I don’t know why." Good Spidey Senses! And now you do. "I spoke to him later today and told him I wasn’t interested in looking for a new home at this time so he was welcome to visit me so he is." Is that, So he is coming, or is it the Irish full-stop? "I also told him while I appreciate him making plans for us he shouldn’t do so without discussing it with me." OOH. I'M IMPRESSED. "So apparently the dinner plans he made this weekend he’ll have to cancel. Not my problem." EVEN IMPRESSED-ER! You go, girl! "He’s coming to me tomorrow for the weekend. I’ll get my thoughts together but intend to be frank." Please ensure to have the frank conversation at a pub or restaurant and time it so that he's scheduled to go straight home from there. Just to be safe. A massive controller might get angry or might be too persuasive. On the phone is one thing, but, you never know - he might work to break your resolve. If he does, if he doesn't agree to and accept your, frankly, deal-breakers, no matter how NICELY he doesn't, then, see that as the biggest Red Flag of all because with a normal guy, it should alarm him and, not wanting to lose you, he would much rather give you leeway and tread more carefully and sensitively in order not to make you flip and end it.

PS: Do you suppose this whole episode could be your cue and catalyst to considering moving nearer to your daughter and son-in-law? How far are they from you?

""I also told him while I appreciate him making plans for us he shouldn’t do so without discussing it with me." OOH. I'M IMPRESSED. "So apparently the dinner plans he made this weekend he’ll have to cancel. Not my problem." EVEN IMPRESSED-ER! You go, girl!" Do me a favour and let me tap into this guy: tell me - as verbatim as possible (albeit, it's more important what impression you got given) - what his responses were to both of these conversation segments?

I think he was taken aback by my comment to ask me before making plans and really didn’t say much in response. Other than it’s not a problem to cancel those plans.

Here: https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/victim-victor/202107/how-negotiate-narcissist How to Negotiate with a Narcissist You’d better prepare carefully. Key points In a negotation, all parties are expected to give and take in order to reach a mutually acceptable outcome. Negotiating with narcissistic people can be challenging as they may lack empathy, be focused on winning, and be unprepared to change. Tips for negotiating with a narcissist include listing triggers and preparing responses, setting a time frame and being clear about one's goals. (etcetera)

"and really didn’t say much in response." Uh-oh. By which I mean - THINK ABOUT IT...think about what the response would have been from a normal, healthy, non-Dominator. E.g. what would your son-in-law have replied? Or your daughter? And then - what would YOU have replied? Would you each have begun with, "Oh, gosh, sorry!..."?

I think he was taken aback by my comment to ask me before making plans and really didn’t say much in response. Other than it’s not a problem to cancel those plans.

(typo: Wouldn't you each) ...at the very LEAST? Ok, so if he didn't say much - how did he appear? What were his facial expression(s)?

PS: Have you remembered yet? - How normally, in your generation it's usually the woman who's always considered to be the better social secretary? What's his place like? Too clean and minimalist and distinctly masculine? If you move his fruitbowl literally only a few inches, does he move it back?

Spoke on the phone. His place is clean but there’s some old stuff that he just doesn’t wish to replace.

Roger that. Forgot to explain (if even necessary): by booking you up for social engagements, it can seem like he's just so gosh-darn INTO you that he doesn't want to be apart and didn't think, blah-blah. But what it means is, you're spending Prime Time with him, and not anyone else. In other words, this original old chestnut is first sold to be a positive sign of his being over-keen on you but once they're sure they've hooked you, it soon turns into giving you a verbal hard time if you want to go out with a friend, and from there, becomes - you're not going and that's final! Yup. He's ticked far too many boxes now. Meh.

Thanks for your insight!

Here you go - a reminder of the template Mr Mean should be fitting were he...well...FIT for a relationship with a woman (not, going by what we've seen so far, that keeping you long-term happy seems to be this guy's priority, anyway, over treating you like a possession/extension of himself and financial as well as social resource): ******************************************************************** https://speakoutloud.net/helping-victims-survivors/healthy-relationships/abusive-vs-healthy-relationships Abusive vs healthy relationships: What’s the difference? By: Clare Murphy PhD – Posted in: Healthy relationships People I meet say, “Isn’t everyone psychologically abusive sometimes?” Yes many people are. But there’s a big difference between healthy relationships and abusive relationships. In a healthy relationship a person uses abuse on one-off occasions. You can predict that they will be caring, loving and respectful most of the time. But in an abusive relationship a person uses abuse and control often. You can predict that they will abuse you – and that they will control you. Sometimes they are caring and loving. One-off moments of abusiveness In a healthy relationship the person using psychologically abusive behaviours will be abusive sometimes, not many times a day, not everyday. This person is willing to pull themselves back. They take responsibility for the harm they’ve caused. They are willing to learn – that means they are willing to be vulnerable. They are willing to grow and change – that means the relationship is a work in progress. The relationship is a creative adventure. When that person is abusive their apology means something. Their apology means something because they take real steps to build equality. Their apology means something because their behaviours change. Let’s pluck a figure out of the air – 95% of the time they are respectful. They are willing to empathise with the pain they have caused. They compromise. There might be moments – 5% of the time – when they want things their way. Don’t we all? A healthy relationship takes two to tango A healthy relationship entails two people who are willing – and do – resolve (or agree to differ) issues that crop up. Both people take responsibility for their behaviours. If one of the people wants and needs to win – this is not to the extent that the other person becomes physically and psychologically ill because of it. No one in a healthy relationship fears the other person. If they do feel fear – this will be short-lived because the other person takes responsibility and never behaves that way ever again. A healthy relationship is a safe place. A nurturing and nourishing place. One-sided continuous pattern of abusiveness An abusive relationship is a one-sided affair. One person is determined to get their way. They use ‘power and control’ to do so. They use a continuous pattern of behaviours over time. The behaviours are intended to dominate and to win. The behaviours are aimed at being right at all costs. The abuser intentionally chooses to use those behaviours to achieve their aim. To win. The victim must alter their behaviour but the abuser refuses to alter theirs. The abuser does not want to resolve relationship issues In a relationship with a control freak in charge, it is wrong to say, “it takes two to tango”. The abuser’s attitudes are destructive. The abuser might say they want to change – but they do not. They might make efforts to change – but revert. They might make a change – but add another abusive or controlling behaviour to their repertoire. The abuser has a sense of safety, the victim lives with fear. To win, the abuser ensures the victim’s self-hood must be diminished on all levels. The abuser uses any tactic to achieve their aim. Therefore, many tactics appear to be contradictory. The only constant is the intention to establish their ‘power and control’.

How did it all go (or is it still 'going')?

I spoke with him and he seemed receptive. He can be pushy but they stopped quickly once I shared my concerns about his behavior. Now he’s Mr nice guy through and through. Can’t do enough for me. I guess this is temporary but time will tell.

I've been on vacation. Mr. Former-would-be-beau intended to say that for a religious person, I was smart. (Since he doesn't talk to an invisible friend in the sky he's of superior intelligence, you see. He's an atheist [US spelling] and I'm a theist.) I get not wanted to be taken advantage of for one's money. No personal experience with it, of course. The OP paying for half of her boyfriend's apartment when he allegedly has the seven mil is absurd. ABSURD!! Unless the OP is worth, say, TEN million or so, this whole situation is nuts. Just got back from visiting Man-friend's relatives and friends in another part of the country. In contrast to the OP's boyfriend, we treated meals for the couple that hosted us FOR ONE NIGHT. We had breakfast at his children's homes, and purchased groceries for them. Being cheap isn't the end of the world. I've been out with dates that *always* had a coupon. You don't end up retired at 57 years old without watching your money. The dishonesty about his means is much, much more troubling. There's something amiss here on the money front, this would affect (effect? I'm not always sure) the OP's finances as well. WAIT: He has SEVEN MILLION dollars and he doesn't own a home? Any kind, anywhere? YOU have to help him pay rent for him to have a place to live? Darlin' you're his financial support. As I suggested before, 'pulling your weight financially' would mean (to me) paying an amount proportional to your income. Do YOU have seven million socked away?

I have no where near 7million. I just about have enough to retire maybe. I’m still working. I appreciate your input. Again the idea was for both of us to stay on the apt but that never happened. Whether he should have said look you’re not comfortable here so I’ll take care of the rent moving forward is another issue. He does know that when the lease ends at the end of June I’m done with it. He mentioned to me yesterday that he’d be willing to put in some extra money if we buy a home and it doesn’t have to be exactly 50/50. By extra money he means maybe 10 or 20 percent. He definitely tells me he has a lot of money invested. Why he doesn’t live like a person with 7million is beyond me. He should be comfortable buying a home on his own but I don’t think he wants to do it without knowing he has a partner to live there with.

He's lying. Single people buy one- and two bedroom condos all the time. The upkeep outside is taken care of by the association. There is the whole "millionaire next door" concept. But that doesn't translate into skinflint, that just means they avoid an ostentatious lifestyle. Paying for groceries one eats isn't ostentatious, it's gracious. Clearly, you're looking to justify continuing this relationship. It's your life to live. But beware that his financial problems will be yours, too, if you decide to cohabit. I wouldn't accept *any* money from him on the purchase of a house, as he seems like the sneaky type who will turn on you and try to justify your continued financial support of him, or turn around and claim the house as his should things go pair-shaped. I wouldn't buy a house with him at all, for the simple reason that he's not an honest person. I don't know why you are so resistant to just asking to see his tax returns. There is no reasonable excuse, none at all, for him to insist on going 50/50 with you when his net worth is so extraordinary. Offering 60/40 is only slightly less so. This seems rather one-sided, with you putting in the extra effort to make it work.

Yup. MTF, I agree with everything OM is saying. And despite I've CLASSIFIED his mentality, everything OM and I have put aligns as well. We can't BOTH be wrong. I appreciate you'll still be torn/unsure, but Cognitive Dissonance over something that poses a significant threat to your welfare and Autumn Years security, is really bad for your entire mind and body. So I need you to re-read this thread and consider these new additions to knock you over into predominantly sure. This can do no harm, it'll just put your strong attachment to him back a few squares on the board as will allow you to keep more aware and critically-thinking (and keep reporting here) as you proceed with the utmost of caution - and he needn't know...albeit, saying that, malignants' senses (being more like ferral humans) are as keen as any animal predator's so he might sense it, though that's no bad thing as it'll show him he has a LOT more relationship work to input before you'll consider him any sort of long-term prospect. HOWEVER, already I'm none too happy, despite vindicated, to hear that he's PUSHY because that's another main, NPD characteristic (*sigh*). ALSO, the fact that his response to your complaint talk, as soon as he realised his pushy persuasiveness definitely wasn't going to work, was to immediately swing to the polar opposite, i.e. to basically start LOVE-BOMBING you again. I mean, changing ones attitude and behaviour from the supposedly natural to the unnatural or unfamiliar, switching to starting to make an effort, starts small and goes up through the gears, which can take weeks or months, not an instant transformation like that! That tells me he is in complete control over which Mask he wears, when, how and why. I.e. his behaviour is wholly contrived. Plus, he shouldn't have NEEDED to be told! Then as OM points out, he PROVES my prior accusation that he CAN'T afford his current place without your 50% contibution and, therefore, will have to downsize to a one-bed now that you're ending your half-contribution. (How much per month btw, and had you checked-out the rental prices in his immediate area to ensure your share geniunely was half and not two-thirds?. And, why end of June - why not immediately or end of April?) The statement about downsizing to a one-bed might have been a threat (or so he hopes), by the way. The, again common NPD tactic of the "take it away again" strategy, i.e. 'seeing your card and raising you' with what he hoped might be an Ace that scared you into back-tracking. Plus, if supposedly he could afford it before he met you - hence chose it! - then how come suddenly he no longer can? And that's even if he's PAYING the rent! Have you been bank-xferring the amount directly to the rental or mortgage co. or giving it to him (via same or in cash)? "Whether he should have said look you’re not comfortable here so I’ll take care of the rent moving forward is another issue. He does know that when the lease ends at the end of June I’m done with it." I'm sorry, but there's no Whether about it. Of course he should! Any healthy, decent, caring, protective, nurturing, loving bloke who saw an actual future with you would! Ten or 20 Percent - PFF! A multi-Millionnaire wouldn't NEED your, comparitively TRIFLING contribution. Of course he's a liar. Worse than that, I'm now convinced he's a real-live Romantic Scammer. He behaviourally showed his arse to your daughter and everyone - the opposite of what you'd asked for. So he DID know what was expected of him and why but deliberately DID THE OPPOSITE (Defiance Disorder - the foundation of NPD-AsPD, followed by the First Floor: Conduct Disorder - ditto!) He whinged that the (relatively-speaking) KID hadn't behaved like the GROWN-UP to his KID. He told you what the rules are (his and his family's, not yours), and maintained putting them into effect. He whinged about the wine. He charged back what piffling amount he'd spent, but over and above it (putting him in profit, surely!). He refuses to reciprocate romantic gestures AND reciprocate family weekend expenses-sharing. And evidently he can switch his nature in a heartbeat. ...on and on and on when you take the time to analyse it all. Oh, and that restaurant episode with the credit cards where NOT EVEN MALE PEER-PRESSURE worked on him (huge Red Flag!) was absolutely ATROCIOUS behaviour! Do you think none of that crowd noticed? What do you suppose was the conversation topic between those couples on the way home, when couples traditionally discuss the whole evening? You see? He WANTS your WHOLE crowd - not just your daughter and SIL - to take a dislike to him (splosh-splosh!) and WANTS you to feel that if you all got together like that again you'll be humiliated again SO BEST NOT TO REPEAT IT....AND/OR (double-pincer job) for those couples to decide he's not a nice guy/bit weird/detect future troubles on the horizon, and THEMSELVES choose not to repeat it ("Two for the price of one" - another tactic). I'm telling you, he's working hard and fast to Isolate you so that he's the only friend/companion you have left, whom you daren't lose, where he has total power over you and can then dictate, without interference/disturbance or protest from now-scared You, your every move. You can afford your own home AND pay half of his. Mr Multi-Millionnaire can't afford more than that half (nor 2 lunches). Of course he's a liar and a romantic conman. Watch him like a hawk. PRETEND you've relaxed again and see him revert. And meanwhile, please keep posting.

PS: And it's THE WAY he refused to match the other men. He said nothing - no, "Oh, sweetheart, would you mind getting this one?" with some explanation. Just sat there, using emotional blackmail (pay or be more and more humiliated with every passing minute). You SAW FOR YOURSELF he was 'the human anomaly' because he was the ONLY man there who didn't chuck his credit-card into the ring! And he does not give a SH*T what other people think about his abnormally anti-gentlemanly, unkind-to-you behaviour! Plus - why didn't he WARN you before you reached the restaurant that he wouldn't be able to pay? Answer: they like to shock and humiliate you with an AMBUSH. He's breaking and training you (as well as busily putting your network off him), using what he knows will work on you: public/social humiliation. Forcing you to change YOUR behaviour while he does nothing to change his, when it's HIS attitudes and behaviours that need to change/shouldn't be that way. ...Not even meeting you halfway ("Could we go halves tonight, sweetheart, because...?"). Brainwashing. If you don't do what he wants you to do, you SUFFER for it. The only way NOT to suffer for it, is to do what he wants. See it? He's Antisocial. It seems minor NOW, but, again...all still just the tips of what are giant, hull-ripping icebergs. It's just subtle...Covert. But hugely over-entitled, emotionally manipulative and under-the-table hostile. Definitely a Sociopath. Act normal but start collecting and sharing more evidence. PS: I have to ask because it IS another hook that too many fall prey to: Are you morbidly-curious to see more of what this 'strange creature' gets up to? PPS: Did you ever phone any of the men and women at that restaurant and sneak into the conversation about what they thought of him?

Yes some thought it was strange he didn’t offer.

There you go, then. Cheers for that. And the rest of my questions if you please?

His behavior is quite self serving. It’s rare to see him act solely for the benefit of others unless there’s some benefit to him. This weekend is the point when he knows I’m not signing a lease with him nor buying a home with him so we will see where that puts us.

Yes. He's a Sociopath but a Narcissistic one, so it's still: "Me-Me-Me (and sod you/everyone)" Huge Takers and/or Parasites/Scammers deliberately target kind, generous Altruists. I imagine you're starting to tell that he's the opposite of you in many more ways than acts of generosity. Yes, we will see. In your mind, don your White coat and take notes on your clipboard. Oh, and if you haven't already - ring and tell your daughter that he's coming and where you're at, that you're proceeding with the utmost of caution just to be SURE-sure-sure that he's iffy so that you can have the confidence to end it without being bothered by any lingering doubts subsequently. **************** No - these questions, please: 1. How much per month btw, and had you checked-out the rental prices in his immediate area to ensure your share geniunely was half and not two-thirds? 2. And, why end of June - why not immediately or end of April? 3. Plus, if supposedly he could afford it before he met you - hence chose it! - then how come suddenly he no longer can? And that's even if he's PAYING the rent! Have you been bank-xferring the amount directly to the rental or mortgage co. or giving it to him (via same or in cash)? 4. I have to ask because it IS another hook that too many fall prey to: Are you morbidly-curious to see more of what this 'strange creature' gets up to? (Although, this is probably a moot point, given your skeptical 'let's see what happens'. But I guess you're the type that needs to see enough evidence to make you as certain and OM and I.)

"His behavior is quite self serving. It’s rare to see him act solely for the benefit of others unless there’s some benefit to him." Ever been part of a 'lost kid' scenario? You know, some neighbor or other suddenly comes out of his house and says, "Ashley's missing!" Everyone within earshot drops what they're doing and starts looking for Ashley, even people who don't have children. People (normal people, anyway) do that because it's sort of an unwritten social contract. It doesn't benefit everyone - people do it because it it was their child, they'd want others to help. Your partner's oblivious-ness to reciprocity is peculiar. i've seen it before, but frankly, in a couple men destined to live their lives alone. His friends and relatives don't experience his personality like a partner or consort would. His money issues, his (what to call it?) emotional cheapness are likely to be written off as personality qurks. Having lots of investments - Having investments doesn't equal wealth. I have investments. Maybe they'll be able to fund my having a pet or two in my retirement. I guess he can afford to sock away some of his money if he can find women to pay some of his living expenses. I'm curious: was this fellow ever married? Did he have children? How did he happen to be single at this point in his life?

He’s divorced after being married for 34 yrs. His ex wanted the divorce. He has 2 grown kids and doesn’t have an issue treating them well. He’s paid for their college and now their graduate school education even though they are both in their early 30s and is helping to pay for his sons wedding. Of course he mentioned his ex is paying too.

I pay half the rent directly to landlord. Current lease is end of June so the right thing would have been for him to say to me don’t worry about it going forward since you’re not moving in but he hasn’t. He wants me to go with him this weekend when I’m there to the leasing office. I told him I’m not signing anything further but I’ll remind him before I go that if I go it’s for emotional support only.

OM; "people do it because it it was their child, they'd want others to help." Yup. Empathy. Empathy and Imagination - the ability to put yourself in another's situation/predicament and feel how it feels to be them and preferably, want to help put a stop to them if they're upsetting. Basic Humanity. Malignants are anywhere between too low in or devoid of it. They also feel they're above any social and legal contracts and duties, especially Spaths. It's the fact he is so OPEN with his antisocialness (same as "Craptain Von Crap" on Lil's thread). This is what makes it so clear he's a Narc-Sociopath because even your malignant-level Covert &/or Vulnerable Narcissists care obsessively too much about what "their public" think of (fake) them, even their partner, straight after having just deliberately insulted/upset/abused/attacked/traumatised them (for the Nth time). "His friends and relatives don't experience his personality like a partner or consort would." Bloody good point, missus! (Alternatively, sometimes it's that they do, but they're even worse; after all, he had to have learnt it somewhere. Or they do, ERGO, are all overwhelmingly friendly and welcoming to the new woman for the fact that - "Phew-ee!" - she's the one - fingers-crossed (and with their 'help' to uphold his Nice Guy from a Nice Normal Loving Family act) - who's in the process of liberating them by taking rotten-him off their hands, finally, meaning, what gets taken by the Love-Bombed target-victim as warmth and joy at meeting you 'whom he's so in-love with and makes their lovely, deserving boy happy' is actually EXCITEMENT, RELIEF AND GRATITUDE.) "(what to call it?) emotional cheapness" Mean-mindedness / mean-spiritedness? Heartlessness? Jaw-dropping selfishness? Keeping his Long-Con project expenses as low as humanly possible because his aim is to get richer off of her, not poorer or merely breaking-even? ***MTF, I don't suppose you've worked out, even roughly, your total expenditure on the relationship versus his yet?*** "Having lots of investments - Having investments doesn't equal wealth. I have investments. Maybe they'll be able to fund my having a pet or two in my retirement. I guess he can afford to sock away some of his money if he can find women to pay some of his living expenses." Yup. And Yup. ****************** MTF, (See question three paragraphs up) "He’s divorced after being married for 34 yrs. His ex wanted the divorce. He has 2 grown kids and doesn’t have an issue treating them well. He’s paid for their college and now their graduate school education even though they are both in their early 30s and is helping to pay for his sons wedding. Of course he mentioned his ex is paying too." Sounds like she didn't want to be married to him any more...the tenure suggesting that she stayed (endured) until her kids left home and were settled. Is that right? I see no evidence there that he, quote, treats them well - that's just PAYING for stuff. Especially not now, under the light of his atrocious meanness and miserliness, AND use of his money as a training tool/weapon, where you (and all who sail in you) are concerned. All I see is, he's a fairly silver-spoon Malignant (class does have an influence) who needs money as a tool (particularly as he has no other charms to recommend him) and has grown richer by manipulating others (and women he's cheated with - they are cheating on-legs) into paying his way - as leaves him CAPABLE of ongoingingly buying his 'kids'' continued loyalty and affections well into their 30s, and/or their having been spoiled and stunted whereby even as late AS their 30s they're having to still rely on hand-outs from their parent. They have to be nice to him in order to keep being funded. (So they've no pride, then?) Alternatively, that's the price THEY make him pay if he wants them to have anything to do with him? (Ditto?) What about fatherly-son, heartfelt affection and hugs. Have you seen THAT? Or has he talked lovingly about them to you, repeatedly, at length, where it doesn't involve their achievements, just loving them for the fact he can't help it? I mean, why hasn't he done the normal fatherly thing and taught them how to be independent and self-sufficient at their late ages? See? Yeah, he's a Malignant Narc alright, but a silver-spoon one (still a liar, though). He's got money, but may as well not have, considering he's damned if he's going to spend it on a woman or for hers or the relationship's benefit - he's doing to make HER spend on HIM, like he's been doing with you. Remember, malignant narcs, spaths, psychos, aka the Dark Triad, all utterly despise the opposite sex (save for the psycho who feels nothing at all one way or the other). (I'm presuming those 'kids' are both boys/men?) Plus, that type is usually a product of the mean, miserly, over-strict, autoritarian father who deliberately deprives his children and/or fails to help them the first time they hit financial dire straits (as all fledgling adults do), enough to instill into them his own, lifelong hang-up, all under the delusion of teaching them how to appreciate the cost of living, abd how scary life is, "fact", without money-money-money. Money literally becomes their only way to quell their now-giant fear and insecurity (obsession/addiction). Donna Andersen's ex-husband was this type: https://lovefraud.com/about-lovefraud/about-donna-andersen/ And I really recommend you order her book, toute suite. (Note my asterisks, below): https://lovefraud.com/anderly-publishing/senior-sociopaths-how-to-recognize-and-escape-lifelong-abusers/ "The latest book by Lovefraud author Donna Andersen, Senior Sociopaths – How to recognize and escape lifelong abusers, reveals that most sociopaths never stop their manipulative and deceptive behavior. So if you’re waiting for a senior sociopath to grow up or calm down — whether a romantic partner, family member, work colleague or friend — stop wasting your life. He or she will not change. This might be news to you. After all, the common wisdom in the mental health field is that sociopaths “burn out” in their 40s and engage in less antisocial behavior. Several psychiatry textbooks directly state this. According to Donna’s research, it’s not true. Senior Sociopaths is based on surveys of 2,377 Lovefraud readers who described their experiences with sociopaths who were age 50 or older. The bottom line is that of the respondents who knew the sociopaths both before and after age 50, 91% said their behavior was just as bad or worse as they got older. Who should read Senior Sociopaths? ***If you are uneasy about your over-50 romantic partner, but you’re not sure why … If your spouse was always difficult, but now, after 50, seems to be getting worse … If you’re struggling to determine your obligation to your demanding, critical, parent … ***If a family member, after age 50, is still causing havoc and division among your relatives … If an over-50 friend, neighbor or acquaintance is turning everyone against you … If your senior boss or co-worker is threatening your employment or career … Senior Sociopaths includes hundreds of stories from people who have dealt with all of these issues. The book helps you to recognize whether the individual who is making your life miserable is, in fact, disordered, so that you can decide what to do. Based on a review of numerous scientific studies, Donna estimates that 14 million Americans over the age of 50 are sociopaths, meaning they could be diagnosed with antisocial, narcissistic, borderline, histrionic or psychopathic personality disorders. There is no treatment proven to cure these personality disorders. The information in this book will help you realize that sociopaths will continue their manipulative, deceptive, and abusive behavior forever, so you can determine your own path forward. What you’ll learn in Senior Sociopaths Introduction: 14 million senior sociopaths live in America, and they never stop exploiting the rest of us Chapter⁠ 1: When charming new romantic partners, 50 or older, turn out to be senior sociopaths Chapter⁠ 2⁠: Why psychologists say sociopaths “burn out” — and evidence that they’re wrong ***Chapter⁠ 3⁠: Marriage to a sociopath — whether short or long — never gets any better ***Chapter ⁠4: Senior sociopaths as parents — abusing children while young, still abusing them as adults Chapter ⁠5: Senior sociopaths in the family — toxic siblings, grandparents, relatives and in-laws Chapter⁠ 6: Senior sociopaths as neighbors and work colleagues — manipulative, unethical bullies and backstabbers Chapter⁠ 7: Criminal behavior over 50 — when senior sociopaths break the law, they often get away with it ***Chapter ⁠8: Dealing with and escaping from senior sociopaths — survivors offer tactics that work Chapter⁠ 9: After devastation by a senior sociopath, rebuilding your life and recovering yourself Endnotes: 82 citations and tables with further detailed information How to deal with the senior sociopath and how to recover Sociopaths don’t burn out as they get older, they become more devious — ***or they stop even pretending to be human and become blatantly cruel***. So if you have a senior sociopath in your life, what do you do? In the last two chapters of Senior Sociopaths, hundreds of survey respondents share their experiences and suggestions for dealing with senior sociopaths and recovering from the damage that they cause. You’ll learn the top action that most people who have been where you are recommend, along with specific tips that you may not have thought of. The key point of the book is that senior sociopaths exist. They blend right into our society. And they continue their abusive behavior until the day they die. Nothing you can do will change senior sociopaths. Thoroughly understanding this will enable you to protect yourself and live your best life. Endorsement This is a great book on senior sociopathy (or psychopathy). Donna Andersen has done an outstanding job of providing a coherent narrative through case studies that is captivating to read, but also relies on scientific data collected from thousands of informants on individuals with sociopathic personality traits to back up her major points. Anyone interested in the victims of sociopathic individuals should read this book! Martin Sellbom, PhD Editor, Journal of Personality Assessment ********************************************** This type, despite being far richer than their ex-wife (because they hide money from the court by making "loans" to those who don't need it, on the understanding they'll pay it straight back, following the Decree Absolut), manipulates the kid(s) into wanting something and thinking it's all their own idea, then refuses to pay anything more than half, i.e. not unless their mother constantly goes halves with him (which, proportionately, is obviously far more than half for her). This is how they subtly try to drip-drip-lower and siphon off their ex-wife's divorce settlement whereby she runs out of money and has to start being nice to him if she wants his help with costs she can no longer afford. He relies on the fact that she'd learned during the so-called marriage, to have to compensate her kids for his own lack of healthy parental love/concern by upping her own dedication, often going too far, whereby she can't ever say No to them (or they've learned how to twist her arm). Spaths are addictive and co-dependent. They're addicted to and in endless pursuit of money and material wealth first and foremost. Some are addicted to spending it faster than their (at first, unwitting) partner can earn it, others, as I say, don't dare spend it and feel too vulnerable without truck-loads of it...basically act like they want to be buried in it - bar whatever meantime serves them as a tool/weapon/substitute/fob-off for the love they don't feel for anyone thus can't give and ditto for giving ACTUAL acts of caring and support. They just "throw their wallet at every problem". (Interesting psyche fact: money enhances ones happiness ONLY up to the amount of 75,000 US Dollars/currently just over 600k Pound Sterling.) ********************************************** "I pay half the rent directly to landlord." And do you have evidence that you ARE paying half and not whole? Also, are he and the landlord known to each other personally/pals? "Current lease is end of June so the right thing would have been for him to say to me don’t worry about it going forward since you’re not moving in but he hasn’t." No, of course not. If he did that he wouldn't PROFIT from you. If he wasn't trying to profit from you, he'd have insisted on paying you back for what you hadn't benefitted from. Because that's what decent men who genuinely love you and see a future with you, do. Why don't you try telling him you expect it back? See how he reacts? He wants me to go with him this weekend when I’m there to the leasing office." WHY ON EARTH WOULD HE WANT THAT? WHAT REASON DID HE GIVE YOU? WHAT REASON *IS* THERE! Red Flag, Red Flag! "I told him I’m not signing anything further but I’ll remind him before I go that if I go it’s for emotional support only." EMOTIONAL SUPPORT?? WITH WHAT? WHAT?! HE'S A GROWN MAN!! Why not just refuse to go? Or is he planning to force you to sign something in his usual socially-blackmailing way? Or are you supposed to witness his rental company confronting him over the unpaid rent and feel embarrassed, obliged and pressured - OR LEGALLY OBLIGED, CONSIDERING YOU'RE STILL CO-LESSEE? - into paying it off FOR him?...with him citing some lie, like, 'temporary cash-flow problems, promise I'll pay you back at the end of the month?'...or as his Screw You 'swansong' revenge and way of dumping you by making you have to dump HIM? What's he up to? This is weird. Just don't go. Be late and have to meet him in town, afterwards. Make any excuse. Or agree to be stood outside, in front of the shop window where poor wickle bubbie can see you. Or am I missing something?

(Haha - sorry - 60k Sterling)

I'd go to the leasing office --alone, and without telling Lover-boy - to inform them in person I was not paying one thin dime after June. I'd go now, in fact, so that it's clear that YOU won't renew. I'm imagining Lover appearing at your doorstep and claiming "Oh, the office didn't get 30 days notice and the lease automatically renewed." Who needs emotional support to say, "I'm not renewing the lease"?!?! It's a business arrangement, not end-of-life planning. Divorce after 34 years fills in **a lot of holes.** I would speculate, although it's **only** speculation, that his emotional process runs something like this: "Dammit, I worked like a dog all my life, my wife got to stay home with the kids like she wanted, and in the end she got X% of all I worked for. The kids aren't kids any more, and I'm still supporting them. When's MY payday?" So he takes advantage of you. I understand the **feelings** a person might have, but we have been gifted with that fancy brain on top of our spinal column. That **should** kick in, with: "Yup, we decided, the two of us, that my wife's time was best spent raising our children. I agreed to that, so my wife didn't have a career. The fact that they're still asking us for money is unfortunate. We should have instilled more self-sufficiency in them. Aside from that, I have a chance - NOW - to end the gravy train for them. It isn't life saving surgery the kid needs, it's money for a fancy-ass reception for his wedding. He and his bride can save up for that themselves, or they can plan a party they can afford. I don't have a right to pilfer money from other people because I feel taken advantage of by my family." The paragraph about thinking is longer than the paragraph about feeling because thinking takes more effort.

"I'd go to the leasing office --alone, and without telling Lover-boy - to inform them in person I was not paying one thin dime after June. I'd go now, in fact, so that it's clear that YOU won't renew. I'm imagining Lover appearing at your doorstep and claiming "Oh, the office didn't get 30 days notice and the lease automatically renewed." GOD, YES! SO WOULD I! "Who needs emotional support to say, "I'm not renewing the lease"?!?! It's a business arrangement, not end-of-life planning." Exactly! That is such a load of POPPYCOCK! So what's his REAL reason, the one he's not telling you because if he did you'd refuse to go, MTF? "Divorce after 34 years fills in **a lot of holes.** I would speculate, although it's **only** speculation, that his emotional process runs something like this: "Dammit, I worked like a dog all my life, my wife got to stay home with the kids like she wanted," Yup - which they were usually jealous of her for (it's like they wanted to be the, as they see it, 'kept' woman). "and in the end she got X% of all I worked for." Yeah - "MY money, not hers!". There is never any gratitude for what in fact had been TEAMWORK, usually with her doing far longer days and workloads them him (wife, mother, housekeeper, cook, launderer, cleaner, gardener,.... He comes home from work, expecting the house to be clean, the kiddie in bed and to be served like some VIP hotel guest; eats his 5-star supper then ignores her for the rest of the evening in his study or watching telly, while she cleans up the kitchen after supper, prepares her kids' schoolbag, deals with school emails....not even sitting down until gone 10. Yep, seen this scenario before. The wife is but 'hired staff', there to make solely his life comfortable. And then there's the verbal, emotional and psychological abuse and having to be a 'sh*re in the bedroom' (refusal is not an option, she'll pay for her rebellion *somehow*), to-boot. "The kids aren't kids any more, and I'm still supporting them. When's MY payday?" So he takes advantage of you. I understand the **feelings** a person might have, but we have been gifted with that fancy brain on top of our spinal column. That **should** kick in, with: "Yup, we decided, the two of us, that my wife's time was best spent raising our children. I agreed to that, so my wife didn't have a career. The fact that they're still asking us for money is unfortunate. We should have instilled more self-sufficiency in them. Aside from that, I have a chance - NOW - to end the gravy train for them. It isn't life saving surgery the kid needs, it's money for a fancy-ass reception for his wedding. He and his bride can save up for that themselves, or they can plan a party they can afford. I don't have a right to pilfer money from other people because I feel taken advantage of by my family." The paragraph about thinking is longer than the paragraph about feeling because thinking takes more effort." Sounds about right (thumbs-up). DEFINITELY go to the leasing office on your own without telling him, MTF. Definitely!

Here's why I'd gp: A lot of people are still trying to 'keep up with the Joneses.' Your man-friend might not want to admit his real financial situation. For some men (and women!) it's embarrassing, especially since he's gone down the "I'm so wealthy" road. I'm not saying he *would,* but he *could*. Personally, I'd be covering my bases, AND my tushie.

(Abso-bloody-lutely! That's what Proceeding With Caution means.) Did you go today, MTF? Any update, missus, or are you going to 'keep us in suspenders'?

Out of town but did have a heart to heart with him today. He is going to lease on his own. I’m not selling my house. Our relationship’s future is up in the air. He understands fully.

Out of town but did have a heart to heart with him today. He is going to lease on his own. I’m not selling my house. Our relationship’s future is up in the air. He understands fully.

Ok - cheers! Fill us in properly when you're back and let us know what you to plan to do to get yourself removed from his lease.

Hi all. I bailed out of the new lease and advised my boyfriend to do it himself since I’m not selling my house. He understands but asked if I’d be ready next year. I told him I couldn’t say but know I’m not ready now. I decided not to see him this past weekend even though he asked several times to visit me at my home but I’ve been under the weather and also lost a family friend this past weekend so I’m not up for him to visit. I’m not sure where we go from here but I need to really give this relationship serious thought. I can’t be pushed to do things unless and until I’m ready. I appreciate that he wants to be with me and be “settled” but it’s a 2 way street. I still feel somewhat bad that I’m losing the connection I once felt but maybe that will pass or maybe not.

My boyfriend decides to renew the lease for 10 months saying he hopes I’m ready to move with him by then. Fine that’s his decision but since the lease has both our names the renewal lease does too. He said it’s just a formality and he’ll pay all the rent. I still owe him money for a trip we have in July but i don’t think I should be signing a lease when it’s only supposed to be for him.

My boyfriend decides to renew the lease for 10 months saying he hopes I’m ready to move with him by then. Fine that’s his decision but since the lease has both our names the renewal lease does too. He said it’s just a formality and he’ll pay all the rent. I still owe him money for a trip we have in July but i don’t think I should be signing a lease when it’s only supposed to be for him.

Help! Do I break up with him? I know he pays his bills but if I say I’m not signing the renewal lease I think that will be the end.

Your name on the lease is not "just a formality.' For Heaven's sake, woman up! Walk into the office and tell them you're NOT ON THE LEASE. If he doesn't pay, the agency WILL come after you for the rent. Two people signing the lease usually means they are "jointly and severally liable." That means the apartment complex can collect the *entire rent* from whomever they can get ahold of. They are delighted to have two tenants to pursue for the money. They will have to go to all the effort [eyeroll] to write out a new lease, and he may have to sign on for a full year. Not your problem. "...if I say I’m not signing the renewal lease I think that will be the end." What more proof do you need that you're his meal ticket? I think, if you stop subsidizing him, he will take the decision out of your hands and move on. I can almost guarantee it. If you want to subsidise him, and his company is that valuable, by all means, sign the lease and keep on with him. He doesn't pay his bills, by the way. You have been paying half his rent for a year because he can't afford an apartment on his own.

I told him tonight I won’t sign the lease since I’m not living there and I may lease something in Florida that I discussed with him for a few months. He didn’t sound happy and said I should have told him I wasn’t signing the lease but I explained that I thought it was clear especially when he said he needs to renew the lease and work something out for himself. I asked why I need to sign and he said because you’ll occupy the apt too but I said that’s not true other than every other weekend. I told him the landlord doesn’t need me to sign since my boyfriend is very creditworthy. He then said he feels like he’s been chasing to see me since last weekend but I’m always busy. Not true. I’ve been sick and then trying to catch up at work. We made arrangements for me to stay with him a few days starting on Sunday. Told him I’m doing my best. Tonight I had him tell the leasing office that I won’t be signing the lease. Not sure if that’s an issue but will know tomorrow. He just sounded unhappy and said I need to be more transparent like him. Not sure what that means in this situation. Where do I go from here? In a way I feel bad because he now is trying to remove me from the lease and he’s interpreting me not signing the lease as me not feeling like we have a future together but I don’t think there’s a future if he has been using me. Just not sure that was his motive or it was that he hates being alone and wanted to have me be with him as much as possible.

What is the issue? Walk into the office during your visit and tell whomever you're not to be on the lease. This sounds like YOU have more of a problem than he does. He's *trying* to remove you? There is no *try.* There's doing and not doing. "I told him tonight I won't sign..." So, up until now, you HAVEN'T told him? You HAVEN'T been transparent. This [allegedly] is more important to YOU than it is to HIM, so YOU SHOULD be the one to do it (after telling him, of course) I'd go to the office in person, too, so he can't claim some sort of duplicity. ("Some other woman is trying to break us up!") You're not going to subsidise his apartment. Of course he's unhappy. If someone had been paying a substantial portion of my upkeep and stopped, I'd be disappointed too. The divorce probably did a number on his net worth. Divorces do that. That's life. If he's said, "Look, the divorce did a number on my finances. I can't really split 50/50," you would have, could have made an informed decision about moving forward. Even if Mr. I've-got-seven-million-dollars-and-I'm-still-working came clean NOW, I'd wonder what else he'd prevaricated about.

I got off the lease officially. My boyfriend had to give them paystubs and qualified on his own for rent of $5300 per month. So apparently he has money but I don’t think he’s into spending too much of it unless he has to. Just don’t know where to go from here. He wants more of my time than I may want to give.

If you want to still see him, honestly, that's up to you. He's not my cup of tea, from what you described. Eating his host's food and not replacing it is boorish, asking you to pay half of an apartment you're not spending time in is cheap - expecially if you are of modest means and he is wealthy. Regarding his rental payment, I'm going to speculate (and it's just speculation) that the agency required income of roughly three times the rent. My quick-and-dirty calculations estimate an income of $190,800. I have no idea what you make. If it's less than that, or *much* less, I'd be thinking hard about what this fellow has done to you, already. Only you can determine what his company is worth TO YOU: but you have to be honest with yourself in that calculation, because he definitely isn't being honest with you. What I'd do or anyone else would do doesn't have to be what you do. For what it's worth, a friend of mine needed to re-finance his home. He could afford it, but knew the bank wouldn't see it that way. He got his employer to issue a month's worth of paychecks that would meet the bank's standards for qualifying income.

On one hand I care for him and enjoy his company. On the other I feel this constant pressure to spend as much time together as possible even when I may have other things I need or want to do.

I think I'm about your age. I dated, briefly, a man who lived about a two hour drive away. (He did have a summer place about an hour away.) There were many reasons I didn't go forward with him, but one certainly was the distance. He didn't think it was a problem. He wasn't doing the same math I was. He lived 100 miles away, six months out of the year. I couldn't afford to retire, and I couldn't afford to put an extra 400 miles per month on my car driving to his home every other weekend. (He suggested alternating between my home and his.) There were other reasons, but that was one. And since I couldn't afford to retire or drive a lot to meet any love interest, that helped me sort out who to pursue a relationship with and who not to. When I was a very young woman, i worked with someone older and wiser than I. She had a special friend she liked spending time with. The two of them went out once a week. One of my colleagues asked if they were going to move in together, and the answer was a firm no. Not because of any moral code, but because they just had radically different lifestyles. She was up before dawn, busy all day. He slept til noon, and owing to some physical disabilities, did very little physically. She said she just couldn't sit around all day and watch TV. Going out with her gentleman friend and spending the night there once a week was fine with her. And even then, she got up before dawn and went to her own home.

Right, I've caught up. And - OMG, OM, thank God you were here! MTF, Time to wake up and climb off The Matrix (his). 1. "He is going to lease on his own. I’m not selling my house. Our relationship’s future is up in the air. He understands fully." He understands fully that one more wrong move and you'll hit end of tether and dump him. And so his response is to still go ahead with majorly pushing his luck by NOT taking you off the lease? I.e. committing Gross Misconduct as normally results in Instant Dismissal. I.e. RISKING THE (supposed) RELATIONSHIP (like they do)? And the reason he gives you for NOT removing your name from the lease is that it won't stand for anything, when, as OM pointed out, IT SO WILL! One, that is concrete PROOF-IN-MOTION that he's a massive, dirty, low-down liar! Two, it's also PROOF-IN-MOTION that he Gasslights you! And to a serious degree. YOU TOLD HIM TO TAKE YOU OFF AND INSTEAD, HE (UNDER THE MASK) STUCK TWO FINGERS UP TO YOU! You cannot get more Defiance and Conduct Disordered than that, mate. Any so-called romantic partner 100% defied my explicit demand like that and they'd be dumped faster than you can say: and now beeping pay me back what you owe me, you slimy toad, or I'm phoning the Police to report you as a romantic scammer. Why isn't that shocking and outraging enough for you to want or at least know to dump him instantly, and REGARDLESS of the fact you're still quite attached? Who is it got you too used to being mistreated? What amount would be be paying YOU back, MTF? You've been paying half of 5,300 Dollars per month, i.e. 2,650/month for HOW many months? Not forgetting to add whenever he's had you playing Jeeves (or his rich boyfriend)? Come on - better out than in: how much has he cost you so far? He's ticked and is continuing to tick all the boxes belonging to a Malignant Narcissistic Sociopath, aka a Predator-Parasite (and partner-destroyer). Not just emotionally (at first) like your 'regular' Covert Malig Narc (partner-puller-down-er) who gets off on emotionally parasiting first and foresmost, squirreling off you second as a bonus. Spaths won't start *emotionally* abusing their Golden Goose (you) unless and until comes the point where they've seen enough to know that's what you intrinsically are (generous, helpful, supportive...), his having sampled enough success every time at sponging off you and making a profit off of you at a relatively petty (or petty-seeming) but quite frequent level (i.e. still serious, given it all rapidly adds up). The emotional and psychological abuse is then brought in to stop the Golden Goose (aka Sugar Mummy) from being mentally and/or financially capable of leaving them, thanks to Cognitive Dissonance: He Loves Me/He Loves Me Not, I love him/I love him not (don't even like him), I should dump him/I can't, I'm going to dump him and cut my financial losses/What if I'm making a mistake?...on and on..., equals Paralysis, unable to make a decision and/or actually follow it through and/or stick to it (No Contact for avoiding Hoovering)). That is the mental state this nasty little con merchant pretending to be your boyfriend, has got you into. Already. And it's going to get worse for you. It always does. There's no succeeding with a Spath; he's the worst type of Narc of all (bar your Covert-Malignant NPD with Passive-Aggressive PD as a major co-morbidity...I'm not sure which I'd choose if made to at gunpoint so they must be pretty level-pegged). You may WELL be scared of making a mistake/over-reacting and may WELL not want to start over and meanwhile suffer loneliness (the lack of partner connection kind), but, one thing I do know: this is not a risky thing IF the bloke IS deep-down decent but made a stupid, immature vow to 'never spend on or become under-the-thumb to a woman again' (as in divorcal baggage), thus CAN turn over a new leaf in all those above-explained crucial ways if it means not losing you from his life. Because in those cases, the man will refuse to accept your dumping without his day in court - and he WILL want to go through the whole chain of events with a fine-toothed explanation-comb - to PROVE you wrong (including putting it all newly into application). If he doesn't try to fight for you, fight for the relationship, by fighting for his day in emotional court with you AND where his explanations hit home as true (because you exhale...feel so instantly relieved and happy, AS every confusion/misunderstanding/baggage-based stupidity is being explained and cleared up in that special way that rings true, and ditto for the promises to never repeat that stupid attitude). If he DOESN'T want to fight for the truth, for his justice, the relationship, for you, then you have lost nothing but a con merchant who pretended to want a relationship while pretending to fancy and develop strong feelings for you (despite all his *actions* already mostly say not or - this latest failure to do your bidding and remove you - worse: "I'm not done parasiting you yet so screw you!"). He may as well just write on his forehead: I am scamming you OVERTLY now and don't care that you deeper-down know it...because I can tell you haven't got the balls to stop me, anyway, least of all get far away from me...because you're under my spell. (Now watch him get even cockier, i.e. nastier and more serious. The monster's been fed, see. Getting away with it is being fed.) Back to you... KNOWING he's bad for you, which, clearly, you do - and being warned that these things only get worse and worse, heavier and heavier, more and more serious, more and more abusive, more and more costly, as you get tied-up tighter because now, while you've been dithering/trying to decide to ACTUALLY One-Two-Three-DUMP, you've meanwhile been investing even more of yourself and your money, meaning, now you want LESS to walk away AND are less capable...Knowing yourself that he's cranking up his Isolation attempts: unilaterally deciding you're going to stay at his (like what only he wants matters); booking you out without your knowledge, let alone consent (ditto plus like he owns you); and now, 'wanting' to see you ALL THE TIME, whereby you'd have insufficient time left over to maintain your life business and friendships... I...SO...LATION Campaign! As clear as day. My prediction about this nefarious aim, made long before this latest run of updates (not that it took much skill, given they - or the illness - all do the same damn thing, including over and over...'one-trick ponies'...), is already coming true. Of course it is...IT'S IN THE SCRIPT... The fact that both OM and I were shocked to hell about his insisting you go to his agent for (pff) moral support and have seen our prediction come true (by his having basically refused point-blank to remove you, i.e. yes he WAS up to no good!)... ...What's it going to take, MTF? Me, I think you're going to have to write a Pros -v- Cons of Ending It list (here). I think it'll help you and whereby if your choice is indeed to take the non-risk and dump (whereby if he's innocent he'll demand justice then step up) and will NOT feel half as bad about it as you assume you will. I think you'll be surprised when the overriding emotion is Relief. Because it's' only once you're OUT of the tiger's cage, and for long enough to feel properly safe, that your mind will let you realise just HOW emotionally and financially (possibly into physically) risky all the way to dangerous a situation you were in. I think you know this and that's why you're the SCARED side of Uncertain, but blaming it on being ambivalent. That's why not even this (what I call) Final Insult (- refusing to remove your name, using a BS excuse), this DEALBREAKER, has managed to snap your eyes wide open and instantly dissolve that Cognitive Dissonance whereby you just end this. I mean, you can't get a bigger Controller than a bloke who, when you insist he remove your name, not only refuses but tries to hoodwink you and tie your hands, i.e. Gaslighting as well as threatening to end it. (ON WHAT BASIS?!...effing cheek! If he were truly a romantic partner, he'd have NO JUSTIFIABLE REASON to think of ending it! You're not the one who's done anything wrong! As a financial parasite-conman, however, he WOULD have a reason (despite a sick and twisted, illegal one).) And you realise that by telling you this stupid lie, he's not only committing fraud with you but also the Landlord/rental agent (because they're still being led to believe your co-lesseeship is consensual on your part)? There IS no 'it' to end. Never was. He's proven it too far. There is only a Tick with its head buried in your flesh, ready to inject its toxic pathogens as it starts feeding off your lifeblood until you get Lyme Disease, embedded (always) in a delicate and hard-to-see-and-reach-with-the-tweezers area. If you can't bear to extract it with the tweezers, then you need to continue what you're doing: poison the well (your blood). Well, that's what OM and I are here for. We're mirrors. You said, How does this look?, and we said, LIKE SHIT, and were proven right - right? Alternataively, I know many ways of poisoning the well (and I'd hazard a guess OM does too, going by her advice to demote him to arms-length/casual, i.e. once a week). What say you at this point, missus?

Update: He signed lease on his own and I’m removed from lease. But he still wants me to see houses with him. When I reiterated AGAIN I’m not ready he got aggravated then he said we need to keep looking so we can narrow down the location and type of home when we are ready next spring. I told him we’ve looked a lot already and I’m not up to looking right now and just want to take a break and focus on my current home and work and just enjoy being a couple. He then went on and on about how I need to make more time to see possible homes and he feels like I don’t make enough time to be with him and he feels I put him on a tight timeframe. Then he says I only said negative things when I see the homes.I said I’m not going today because it’s a short week because I’m going to see my kids out of town for Mother’s Day and I need to do laundry etc. he then says that’s what I mean if I’m not seeing him for 12 more days I should stay longer on Sunday including seeing the home for sale. I apologized and said I didn’t mean to make him feel slighted or not important but doing my best. I’m always apologizing lately.

I don't know what your relationship was like before you posted here. If you're scaling back how much time you're willing to spend with him, you're changing the relationship. He can accept that as the new paradigm, or move on. Your desires and needs are as important as his. Making more time to see possible homes: "keep looking so we can narrow down the location and type of home when we are ready". Really, in 2023? Last time I looked for a home (2002) I could enter the number of bedrooms, baths, acreage, price into the realty site and let it do the sorting for me. Mind you, I already had an idea of what I was looking for. Going to open houses as if you couldn't possibly know what you want unless you see it is ridiculous. This is just an excuse to take up more of your time. By the way: until he is more transparent about his true financial situation, I wouldn't buy a home with him. Many would counsel you not to buy a home with someone you aren't married to.

MTF, Like OM says - '...To take up more of your time - AND - in reaction to your new-found level of firm, committed-to self-assertion - ...He's having to switch to scraping the barrel, to ditch trying to inveigle you to him, financially (via the next-easiest method to getting yuo pregnant, i.e. a shared flat rental/bought house...basically him to have a HOLD over you - so that you can't Just Leave when you (inevitably do) meet your line in the sand and dire urge to escape his clutches. ************ "...and I’m not up to looking right now and just want to take a break and focus on my current home and work and just enjoy being a couple." Amen! "He then went on and on about how I need to make more time to see possible homes and he feels like I don’t make enough time to be with him and he feels I put him on a tight timeframe. Then he says I only said negative things when I see the homes.I said I’m not going today because it’s a short week because I’m going to see my kids out of town for Mother’s Day and I need to do laundry etc. he then says that’s what I mean if I’m not seeing him for 12 more days I should stay longer on Sunday including seeing the home for sale. I apologized and said I didn’t mean to make him feel slighted or not important but doing my best. I’m always apologizing lately." YOU..."should have" done EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID DO! (Thlup!...Gold Star on your forehead - PROUD OF YOU!) HE...."should stop" being such a, now outwardly, BULLY...ignoring your protests as if you haven't said a thing. Oh...in 2023, Women still mean Yes when they say No, do they? (Outdated/Dinosaur Thinking noted - Spath Tick!) (no longer surprised, is just yet more confirmation and Narc behavioural/attudinal box-ticking, yawn...). How DARE he get agitated with you, how DARE he! HE HAS NO RIGHT! (Spath-Tick! x 2/Yawn) He no longer CARES if, his behaving with you in that disgusting way, he risks you 'getting shocked awake by'/concluding he's a dinosaur (and railroader) of a Dominator. He can't AFFORD to. He was having to rely on your TRAUMA-BONDEDNESS to him (being emotionally-Super-Glued (artificial but super-deep bonding)) to stand-in for Manipulation, meaning, even if you don't like it and normally would dump someone at that point - YOU CAN'T BECAUSE YOU'RE SUPERGLUED. So, now you're no longer going to be paying half his rent, he is PANICKING AND DESPERATE to make you let him enter your 'Financial Car' to become your however-long-it-suits-him PASSENGER (and when I say 'him' I mean The Predator-Parasite, I don't care WHO your so-called bf is - I know a Predator-Parasite aka *Romantic* Scammer i.e. Enemy Dressed-Up As Fake Boyfriend when I see one! Sociopaths...we're talking not just emotional-life destroying & harmful financial exploitation. We're talking ENTIRE LIFE AND WEALTH TAKEOVER CAMPAIGN. YOU would become the one who 'suddenly' found herself paying HIS half of the mortgage! Or he'd sell it out from under you! Or use his now financial LONG-TERM association with you to get credit...and put it in YOUR name....whatever/however, where there's a will there's a way ...and he is proving-proving-proving he has the will even IF his way turns Overt and he uses his male presence to intimidate you into doing HIS bidding (and yours doesn't exist, let alone not matter!). STRONG-ARM-ING YOU, DENYING YOU A COMMON SELF-PROTECTIVE METHOD CALLED "NO" = this has cranked up into Attempted FINANCIAL rape! It's at Date Rape level at the moment. At the moment. At the moment. You hearing me? 'Straight Coverts' ruin your emotional life (for a good while) and retro-gallingly sponge off you. They end the 'relationship' without any discernible rhyme or reason...then come back, then abandon you, then come back... But they're harder to spot (very subtle/disguised abuse...not subtle enough for me, though) Sociopaths don't end relationships. (Start off sauve and subtle, 'suddenly' turn into an Evil Desperate Dan figure, they're Narc Rages/Mantrums can be physically dangerous, especially at the point where they can tell you actually are leaving them). They 'end' partners. ****************************************+ They 'end' (or *actually* end) partners. Or try to. READ THAT AGAIN AND AGAIN, OVER AND OVER. ***************************************** Back to what he's up to: He's panicking sooo much, his mask his been knocked askew! 'Thanks' to that, you've just seen A BIT - repeat - A BIT of the ACTUAL-sized Monster behind said (now askew) mask! Question: Did you this time FEEL the WEIGHT of his foot-in-door, aggressive pressuring (bullying..coercing) while it was happening in real-time (or as a delayed reaction later, once you were alone and safe)? And that was just A BIT. Imagine how much more aggressive, domineering, etc. it actually is in its entirety if what you've just seen is but a Whiff Of!...what it will deteriorate into once he 'has you' behind closed doors?! He'll think he can do what he wants with you, when he wants, how he wants... OMG. Run. Then, when you're safe, let him have his TELEPHONNIC day in court in order to CONVINCE you you've got him all wrong, that he didn't realise he was coming over like that, etc... if you by-then want. Unless you want to see what happens? I wouldn't. You have to know what you're doing when trying to handle or outwit / endure as you study (rather than ditch), the 'giant-est' Narc of all, the Spath. My God...their cruelty and sadism, their pleasure in your pain (that they've nastily or just toyingly caused), their kicking you when you're really down, their risking your personal safety (especially if they have another (ego) 'issue' with you) is like nothing I've ever seen or heard out of the rest of that rotten, malignant Narc 'tree'. No Malignant Pyschopath would EVER lower himself to a Spath's disgusting behaviour, no WAY! Give me a malignant psycho ANY DAY - YOU CAN REASON AND MAKE WIN/WIN DEALS WITH THEM (espec if you counter-con them they're getting the better deal...NONE of the Cluster Bs expect their victim to know how to behave like a superior Narc to them, NONE of them!) and they bloody DO have empathy but they choose when to turn it off or on, so all you have to do is point out how doing that will SERVE them....these are the most manipulable bunch you'll ever find!....IF you know what you're doing, how, when, IF you can bluff, double-bluff, triple-bluff...tie THEIR brain into knots until it damn near explodes. You can't do that. If you aren't back to your normal, brave self, if you haven't studied and (ugh) found yourself involved with them intensively your whole life so switch to 'Secret Squirrel' psychological testing & research on them while you're waiting to get rid of them - you don't know what you're doing. All you are qualified to do is - first chance and attempt you get - go for it. But make a plan now, how you'll do it (from your daughter's house, she and SIL there with you for moral support?) (trust me, OM; it IS that hard to do). Bit like having an emergency maternity-hospital bag ever-ready when you're pregnant and in your third trimester, getting Braxton Hicks. OR...if your emotional superglue has yet to dissolve with the sense that you do know, see, appreciate, agree with and all that - carry on as you're doing for a bit longer. Say it as your mantra: I....do not have to DO.....anything I don't WANT to. He is NOT my husband. Nor my keeper. Tough Tittie, Pal, It Ain't Happening & You Can't Make Me. Which reminds me: (it doesn't sound like you are, but -) SHOW NO FEAR, BE SASSY AND BOSSY, REMIND HIM OF HIS MUM - HE'LL INVOLUNTARILY ROLL OVER....MASTER---SERVANT - BOTH ARE HIS COMFORT-ZONES, it's EQUALITY they can't do, just Master-Servant....act like his mum, get a tad bossy - see if falls for it. Or be short and sweet, don't get sucked into a ruddy debate about it....say a jokey La-La-La, Not List..eningggg!. But go carefully ******************* LOVING your posts on here, OM. You're starting to really remind me of our longest-running veteran regular poster (not present at the mo (sob)) - Susiedqq! :)

As always thanks for the replies!

Oh wait (soz, so little time at mo!) - Or you can look up how to do Grey Rock. This will make HIM WANT to leave you (phew!). That's the easiest, least effort...just willpower. You'll come out unscathed. Plus, so as not to 'rattle the monster's cage' (engage his so-so sick, vindictive ego): If ANY Narc can be convinced THEY chose to chuck YOU, said sick, explosive ego is fine with that (no rejection of Superior Me here, folks!). That way, you get rid of them AND have the satisfaction of having out-manipulated a giant Narc by having gone floppy and sleepy on the supermarket floor (a deadweight). :) They HATE to have to be the driver. They're bullyboys in adult bodies - they can't! Don't be fooled by that capable adult male act, it's all ollocks - ...well, just look at the lie about being able to afford that flat and nuff said! We've established, whether financially able or not - DON'T WANNA is AIN'T GONNA. Why bother when there are love-starved women (or men) out there whom like any human in-love will do practically ANYTHING for (what at first feels uncannily like) Love. PS: Oh (fake) Boo-Hoooo, 12 days, waaaah, Mummyyyy... What are ya - addicted to her and got no life?! Liar. You just want to start the Takeover by TAKING OVER. Socially - "just wanting to beee with you all the time cos that's how much i love yoooou", or "whoops, I booked us for that weekend already!" - or how ever - is how it starts. Wel-commme toooo everyone-else-here's (ex/current) woooorld" - tra-bloody-la-laaa....

Important PPS (and you're as ever, bloody welcome, gal!): At the first opportunity (pref over the phone) DOOOO be a sweetie and say: A friend of mind wants me to pass on a message to you: "YOU'RE ONLY HER BLOODY AS-YET-UNTESTED BOYFRIEND - WHO D'YOU THINK YOU ARE - HER DAD?! - GET BACK IN YER BOX, YOU CHEEKY EFFER!. - I can SEEEE YOOOOOU....but - no hard feelings, though, Dwahling, mwa-mwa-mwaah!" Or, when he tries that shite again, ask him if he's got a Dad Complex or something. E.g. "You're trying to be my dad again. I'm not 8. And you shouldn't find 8-year-old girls a turn-on anyway....Something you want to tell me? Or just imagine doing them...and while you're at it, start finishing your sentances in your head, like, 'Yes (, your Pr*ckship)'. This will unladen you of banked-up resentment, leaving you lighter and more 'agile' and more able to garner your loins for however you choose to keep distancing yourself or going Grey Rock or just dumping his sick & twisted, woman-hating/destroying a*se.

Oh and the reaosn he thinks you're superglued and unable to to end it (because he's been testing you with all the reasons in the world to, and yet you still haven't(!), meaning, you've fed the monster - because getting away with it is getting fed) is because (drum-roll...) You haven't ended it. (THAT'S the real "should have".) HE doesn't know you're fighting the last of your Cognitive Dissonance (and, be honest - intrigue). He just thinks he got away with it (it and it). Thus that is why he's daring to get more like his real self with you: outwardly pressuring.....just bordering on bullying but when you take into account the What For - it's serious bullying! If he's got away with THAT, TOO...now he'll feel safe and cocky enough to crank it up, remove MORE of his mask! He will get bossier and more physical-presence-style intimidating as he does. Just warning you.

Another tip for faster detatching/superglue dissolving: Stop calling him 'my boyfriend' (look up, see for yourself). He's not. He's behaving for too long, exactly like he is no such thing and ticking every Spath box (early Red Flags, even Neon-Red Flags now) there is! Plus, even keeping it simple: no boyfriend who treats you like THAT is a boyfriend worth keeping, even if he WASN'T secretly mentally-ill. Let's give him a disempowering, witty nickname.... I'll come up with some so if you can't, you can just choose one: Ebenezer-Geezer (Scrooge) Elbows McStompy I think he needs a more petty-crook/crim. name, preferably from past history (where he deludedly lives)... Silly The Kid General Custardly Tim-NOT-Nice-But-Dim (Tiddles for short) Fagin Atilla (the NOT "Hon") (geddit?) Psycho Rotten Idiot Conning Klutz (- acronym, lol lol) Point is (there's method in me madness) - comedy is a great super-fast healer-detacher. Normally (heh). Use all these detachment aids/speeder-upers to finish healing IN the Fauxlationship a bit longer until you suddenly feel capable (too alarmed/turned-off), then Leg It. Oh, here's one: Foghorn About-To-Get-His-Leg-Shorn. (Bet you giggled at that one)

Fantastic! Thanks.

I hadn't considered the 'reverse break-up.' I first heard it described in the old sit-com "Friends," though I had gone through it in real life with my first boyfriend. (When my boyfriend's *friends* told me they don't know why I up with his awful behavior, that should have been a clue. I was very young and inexperienced.) I have a slightly different take: You're changing the shape of the relationship. Even if this fellow wasn't a skinflint, even without all that, being upset about changes in the relationship would be perfectly normal. He could actually use that argument. All that being said, YOUR needs and desires count as much as his, and YOUR feelings and desires have changed. So he has two choices: Take it or leave it! But like SM, I suspect there's more to it. He has never shown you documentation of his financial status. I'm thinking he's a con man (which can exist with or without bona fide mental disorders). Amittedly, he seems to be playing a long game. He's been with you 18 months. But, maybe you seemed like low-hanging fruit. (Note *past tense*)

Again appreciate the input. I really haven’t changed much except my decision not to renew the lease and giving me more time to decide on moving forward with buying a home which I reminded him is a huge decision that right now causes me anxiety. As for any change in time spent we typically see each other Thursday night to Sunday morning or Friday to Sunday morning. Not much has changed there. I feel he’s getting insecure because of my decision not to renew the lease or move in the apt now. He said the other day he has no idea when I’m selling my home etc. I told him again no reason to sell now but I suppose he expects me to list it at his whim. I reminded him I’m constantly selling things like every week and getting the house more empty so it’s ready to sell when the time comes. He was just pissed I didn’t stay the other day to go see the house. In fact, apparently he went to see them self and then sent me a text that he wishes I would’ve stayed to see it because it was really nice and he was tempted to buy it, but he had just renew the lease. On that issue, he decided not to lease an extra space across the street because I am not there other than every other weekend. So now I have to park in one place if I were to come Thursday night and I move my car to a different place Friday night so not to pay too much for parking in other words if the one parking spot we have in the least he is now using full-time, even if I come on the other Thursday.

Hey gals, OM: "I have a slightly different take: You're changing the shape of the relationship. Even if this fellow wasn't a skinflint, even without all that, being upset about changes in the relationship would be perfectly normal. He could actually use that argument. All that being said, YOUR needs and desires count as much as his, and YOUR feelings and desires have changed. So he has two choices: Take it or leave it!" Yeah, but that's how it seems only on the surface, or when your brain just doesn't like the "against-normal-interpersonal-script" data and tries to clean it up: okay guy, normally, bit odd/just not raised quite right, and just having a really bad day/month/year/epoch... only, when is he going to come OUT of it, when will it end - or - I can't believe we're back here again, I thought it was just a bad phase he or our relationship was going through. She's not refusing to wear sexy high heels for him after having done so this whole year, is she. This isn't a normal insta-con where he can run off, never to be seen again (to escape prosecution/comeback). He wants in on her post-divorcal finances. He's playing dumb, too, while pretending that "I don't want to be co-renter or co-habitate" SOMEHOW DOESN'T extend and apply to sharing the cost and living space of a BOUGHT HOUSE INSTEAD. That's like, 'No, I don't want another wine, thank-you' and him responding with 'What about TWO glasses, then?'. He aims to live off her....parasite. Practically ALL malig narcs try to get you to move-in with them/share rent/mortgage/preferably bought-outright house, way-way-way too soon when you're ONLY DATING THEM and it's LESS THAN 2 YEARS. (Plus 18months/2yrs is when the NPD Sociopath starts revealing his dark side...usually, getting bossily manipulative, increasingly. And if you plug one unacceptable behaviour, all that happens is they replace it with another (but still the same end objective)....WHICH IS WHAT HE IS RIGHT NOW TRYING. Normal decents would - before it were too late, certainly - feel the same way MTF feels: I'm not ready, WE'RE not ready, it's far too soon, it could thereby damage our longer-term chances at success as a couple, it could damage me, it's not some trivial act, it's the biggest purchase one will ever make (etc etc etc) and - DRUM-ROLL - WHY RUSH IF (presumably) WE HAVE THE REST OF OUR LIVES (or at least a decent period) TO BUY A HOUSE TOGETHER (- that's another Gotcha (on him), OM)... A normal decent man (which means sensible, cautious, careful) programmed and nurtured to give a damn about right way to treat someone versus wrong (including About What), and why IMPULSIVITY (if that's all it were), AND RUSHING your relationship, are well-known threats to a romantic relationship, especially - would be too worried that once moved-in, SHE might turn out to be a monster - or simply that the prematurity might toxify the otherwise nice relationship. Oh, and he wouldn't want to be domineering towards a woman he REALLY hopes will become his life-partner, either, especially not when he's already had a clear NO. The difference that makes ALL the difference is how a bloke deals with a 'sudden' change to their dynamic. I don't care if MTF had suddenly started insisting on turning up in a clown suit and make-up on their dates - there is NEVER any excuse to demonstrate such a gross lack of respect for aSOMEONE YOU'RE ALLEGING YOU LIKE & LOVE'S right to refusal over something so huge, so serious, so potentially life-altering. It then goes UP the seriousness scale when what he's using this (putting it mildly) very ungentlemanly behaviour towards achieving, is to wear down her down so that she'll basically pay his housing costs again, using intimidating, domineering, NAGGING when, again, it's her money, her future and if she says No (I don't want to join financial lives with you whether bought or rented), then THAT SHOULD BE THAT. Spath-Narcs are famous for nagging and nagging, even when you've said No till you're Blue-in-the-face, even when the choice belongs to the WOMAN EXCLUSIVELY AND IS STILL AT THIS VERY EARLY STAGE (during bad behaviour) NONE - ZERO - ZILCH - OF HIS BUSINESS. And then you add his manner/conduct to the coercing her to be month-in-month-out paying half his rent (and for WHAT..since when did a boyfriend CHARGE his girlfriend to stay overnight at his of a weekend?!).... put ALL of the bad-behavioural attitudes and behaviour that MTF has mentioned here and there, together, on your evidence table. A NON-Narcissistically-abusive conman would be slicker and more patient/cautious. In fact, most 'normal' conmen don't even go for the Medium-Long Con (they're not that pathologically-arrogantly self over-estimating for a start). NO WAY would they ruin their long-con by losing their cool and slickness like that, acting like a cheap door-to-door salesman type of conner. And they don't try to move in with you (duuh? LOL). The Domestic Scam is the realm of the Malignant NPD Covert or, more often, Sociopath. (I'm trying to think of a past Spath that *didn't* try to move-in anywhere between far too soon or still too soon. (No means she's not ready. What, he's too thick to read THAT bleedin-obvious? A healthy, harmless male would.) ...I could be here all day. Maybe this little-known giant flag will help: When your relationship is healthy, you never feel or see any NEED to ask for help (and I mean help, not just sharing the latest with your friends), let alone outside help. If you, a grown adult, cannot handle any type of relationship with one other (at first seemingly normal or wonderful) adult, where normally there's no need TO handle (or be confused, shocked, torn, mentally-emotionally destablized, whatever...): it's because they have a personality disorder, usually NPD. I see nothing healthy in this guy whatsoever. He's no longer HINTING here. He's being blatent. Please study up on it, OM, please-please-please? (puppy-dog eyes?) "But like SM, I suspect there's more to it." Oh, phew, you do have that "this is just not right" feeling, still - good, phew. Thought I'd lost you there. "He has never shown you documentation of his financial status. I'm thinking he's a con man (which can exist with or without bona fide mental disorders). Amittedly, he seems to be playing a long game. He's been with you 18 months. But, maybe you seemed like low-hanging fruit. (Note *past tense*)" Yep. My analogy that goes - (You) Temporary wheelchair-user (recoverable) meets secretly wheelchair-user (permanent cripple...secretly in a permanently horrid mood)...you start to recover - he cons</manhandles/threatens/injures you back into your chair. And there you stay (he hopes). First you're too scared to try to stand up (switch to crutches) in case he leaves you or worse. Then you're too knackered, too traumatised, COULDN'T CARE ANY MORE (just let me sleep); there's no peace until you do. And then you slowly-steadily are forced to see the world and behave as he does (you get punished/dissed when you don't), start behaving like it....goes on too long, becomes your habit, more and more/deeper, deeper, becomes automatic...now you're a Narc too (Narcisissed). He keeps mistreating and injuring you (the way his parents treated him - all his own anger on top) until BY COMPARISON - to everyone outside-of-doors, HE LOOKS LIKE THE HEALTHY, CAPABLE, CHARISMATIC, etc. PERSON AND YOU LOOK LIKE THE NUTJOB PROBLEM. YOU become part of his public mask. He is now, actually your superior...your Master...which is the only way he likes it, can function as. He's never sampled or been taught Equality - it feels (cuckoo!) ABUSIVE TO HIM. You're depriving him of HIS BIRTHRIGHT! (Get yer head round that one...and it is just one of many-many-many bad consequences.) (They're described knowingly, all over the place in the Bible, btw.)

PS: low-hanging fruit. Yes. "They get you when you're down (hanging low)". They know darn well they're only pretending to you to be on your level and that normally you wouldn't pick/accept so low (even if you don't detect outward flags yet). They pounce. They scour for the once- or just-victimised... bit like Blue Peter: "Here's one that *someone else* made for me, earlier". You're pre-slimed/primed or you're down-and-out. They're nothing if not lazy/in a hurry.

MTF, "Again appreciate the input. I really haven’t changed much except my decision not to renew the lease and giving me more time to decide on moving forward with buying a home which I reminded him is a huge decision that right now causes me anxiety." A normal guy, actually wanting a lasting, romantic relationship, would be HORRIFIED to think he were causing or exacerbating your anxiety! (That's no different, is purely the psychological equivalent to - Ow, let go, you're hurting me!) "As for any change in time spent we typically see each other Thursday night to Sunday morning or Friday to Sunday morning." Too much when you've got your new life to organise and this time there's no-one sharing half (hah! - alright, SOME OF) the weight so you're having to operate like BOTH husband-and-wife in one mind and body. (Do you work or are you retired?) And how soon into the relationship (in weeks/months) did your one-date-per-week turn into three-plus days and always over the weekend, every single weekend? Always at his house if he had his way, yes? (On his territory makes it harder for you to self-assert (which spills into all other areas, this case, your house or out somewhere together, and becomes a habit). "(As for any change in time spent we typically see each other Thursday night to Sunday morning or Friday to Sunday morning.) Not much has changed there. I feel he’s getting insecure because of my decision not to renew the lease or move in the apt now." Yep. And *desperate. He has no other way but to pressure and pressure you, meanwhile relying on the super-glue to keep you in the game even if the nonsense becomes too much. (*Maybe he can only afford to keep supporting (bribing) his grown adult sons if you or any woman is subsidising him by providing a roof over his head...into more and more if he gets away with that one.) "He said the other day he has no idea when I’m selling my home etc." NONE OF HIS BUSINESS, THAT'S WHY. IT'S TOO SOON. HE'S NOT YOUR FIANCE (with whom he's chosen a date for next year or the year after). THAT'S WHY PEOPLE PUT (or used to?) "PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL" ON BANK STATEMENTS/LETTERS MEANS FOR THE RECIPIENTS EYES ONLY: IT'S THEIR BUSINESS AND THEIR BUSINESS ALONE. "I told him again no reason to sell now but I suppose he expects me to list it at his whim." Uh-huh, yup. "I reminded him I’m constantly selling things like every week and getting the house more empty so it’s ready to sell when the time comes." Intelligently put, Modom (thlup!). Nicely vague. (He'll still think he can force you to decide 'when the time comes' is this or next month.) "He was just pissed I didn’t stay the other day to go see the house." Yuh! Sooner you see it and (are helped to) fall in love with it - out goes your sensible pragmatism, through the window and now you're FINANCIALLY super-glued as well as emotionally! "In fact, apparently he went to see them (his)self" 'Apparently', noted. (Good. You're doing great. Eyes wide open. Proceeding with caution AND SUSPICION! (stop showing-off lol) "...and then sent me a text that he wishes I would’ve stayed to see it..." SHE SAID NO. REPEATEDLY. ON SEPARATE OCCASIONS AND IN MYRIAD WAYS. You irritating, dominator of a beep! (him...sorry). WHAT PART OF I'M NOT NEARLY READY TO BUY A HOUSE DOESN'T HE (or so he'd have you believe) DOESN'T HE GET????? You see? A normal-healthy who wanted to keep you would BACK OFF IMMEDIATELY FOR FEAR OF SENDING YOU RUNNING AND PUTTING YOU RIGHT OFF HIM FOR-GOOD! He't not protecting you (latest add-on to rap sheet: refusing to stop hurting you (anxiety) when he has all the power to). He's not protecting the relationship (by stopping putting it to all these constant risks). All he's protecting is his aim, his agenda...to share (your) finances. He cares more about this than you, your feelings, your present and future welfare, your nerves, your friends' and relatives' having a good impression of him, your right to organise your own diary, your request for greater space to finish sorting yourself out (which could only BENEFIT a relationship - think about it: work done, now ready to play-play-play!)... all of it. "...because it was really nice and he was tempted to buy it," Go for it, Mr A. Warbucks! (A for Alleged) "...but he had just renew the lease. On that issue, he decided not to lease an extra space across the street.." What does an extra space mean? Across the street from what - you?? Course he has - he can't afford it now you've pulled-out of paying half his rent! "....because I am not there other than every other weekend." Blah-blah, lie-lie. You told HIM that, anyway (ach, so galling when they do that). "So now I have to park in one place if I were to come Thursday night and I move my car to a different place Friday night so not to pay too much for parking in other words if the one parking spot we have in the least he is now using full-time, even if I come on the other Thursday." Yup. He's trying to make this high inconvenience sway you into buying that house or at least going back on as co-lessee so as to avoid this headache. I suggest you use this as your ammunition for insisting he come mostly to YOU now - presuming parking at yours is now easiest? (See how he likes THEM apples!) PS: if he adds calling you selfish into the mix, respond with: Am I? GREAT - ABOUT TIME, TOO!

Oh, got it - sorry: another PARKING space across the street. Could he afford it/did this extra space exist BEFORE he met you? (So you're his only visitor, then? How telling.) Again, if there are no such obstacles (that he has CHOSEN to create for you) to his staying at *yours (which will then be to YOUR schedule too, but first and foremost), then stay at yours a gentleman - or ANY reasonable person who cared about you, actually - would do. Let's see what he does with that, then...

"I reminded him I’m constantly selling things like every week and getting the house more empty so it’s ready to sell when the time comes." This tells him you're still open to buying a house with him. I don't know WHY, but it's your decision. Before you do that I can't stress enough about SEEING HIS FINANCIAL RECORDS FOR YOURSELF, which up to now you haven't. It's possible he pretends to not understand because YOU have never said to him, "Dude, I'm not buying a house with you until I see your tax returns for myself. I feel uncomfortable that you had me pay for half of an apartment for a year when your net worth is five times [or whatever it is] what mine is. That struck me as unfair." If you want to keep seeing him, but never live with him - that's your choice. If you told him living together is off the table, he wouldn't keep hectoring you about buying a house. He might even break up with you. Maybe you sense that and don't want to break up. That's your choice, but it means because YOU havent been clear with him, he can and will continue to push this issue. Your actions, or lack of them, have consequenses. Mr. Seven Million Dollars can afford a house all by himself, I would think, but I don't know the price point he/you are looking at. I don't know how your income/savings compares to his. So, if you're still open to living with him, you'll have him nagging you about 'when.' If you're not, you could probably end this by saying "I'm not willing to buy a house with you."

By the way, this started out as a discussion of his parsimony. It turns out he's rude, inconsiderate, pushy, and quite possibly dishonest about his finances. He won't lease an extra parking space for you? YOU always have to go to HIM? Was it always like this?

He rented an extra parking spot across the street and used it during the week when I wasn’t there and then I used the building rented space on the weekends when I visited. Since we are law alternating each weekend he decided to stop paying for the extra space and just used the rented one in the building so when I visit I need to find a space on Fridays when the meters run. I can park across the street for free on Saturdays and Sundays.

""I reminded him I’m constantly selling things like every week and getting the house more empty so it’s ready to sell when the time comes." This tells him you're still open to buying a house with him. I don't know WHY, but it's your decision."" Nah, that works really well as a fob-off. Remember I told MTF to pretend to play along? She's hit the stage where you think: Sod-it - I'm as good as done. HOWEVER, he has the time and opportunity while I'm girding my Dumping loins to change his way and prove me wrong. Too-common stuff. Detaching from a fauxlationship with a giant Narc isn't like detaching from a genuine relationship with a normal-healthy where you no longer suit one another, etc. The entrapment, getting those giant hooks in, under guise of romantic interest with-a-view, was done as a drip-drip process so its reverse is drip-drip too...or splosh-splosh now you and I are here to feedback and support her. No worries, this is GOOD. :)

PS: "when the time comes." MTF was a successful businesswoman. Good with words. So... ...When IS When? "TOOOOOOOO-MORR-OW....TOO-MORR-OW....I LUV YA.....TO-MORR-OW YOU'RE AL-WAYYYSSSS A DAAAAY A....WAAAAYYYYY" :D

PPS, OM: Re this fob-off of MTF's: Here are a few examples of where I advised MTF to just maintain him on-the-spot and pretend nothing or nothing serious is wrong: "In the meantime, keep this thread active and use it as a diary of events/incidents if you like; you'll find it'll help massively to see everything written down in one place like that (Rap Sheet). And I highly recommend you do not sign a thing nor move in with him (using whatever excuse(s) you can think of to keep him stuck on the spot, merely maintained where he is)." "You just need to take your time as you SEEM to proceed (but secretly with caution), meanwhile pretending nothing's wrong...nothing to see here, tum-tee-tum... and deleting your History here if he ever borrows or could have access to your device(s)." Personally, I loved that ("when the time comes"), LOL, nice one. Tres subtle - in fact - missable! MTF's a passive/diplomatic resister. and I lllike it!

"He rented an extra parking spot across the street and used it during the week when I wasn’t there and then I used the building rented space on the weekends when I visited. Since we are law alternating each weekend he decided to stop paying for the extra space and just used the rented one in the building so when I visit I need to find a space on Fridays when the meters run. I can park across the street for free on Saturdays and Sundays." So at first, he was shifting his car to this extra, rented parking-space, leaving his apartment space free for your visit. Got it. Gosh.... If only he still cared- I mean, if only he was still giving enough of an uck to keep up the pretense that he cares, ...like, why doesn't HE take the weekday payable, weekend free spaces whenever you visit like any normal man (programmed to involuntarily and voluntarily both, show-off his long-term Mate suitability via amongst other displays, his Provider skills) Rhetorical question - I know why. And it further explains the mask slippage and pressuring. He's DISTURBINGLY low on money (and/or isn't going to dip into his secret savings/scamming spoils and future death-quilt). Hence NOW he's got you footing the (you'd think, petty!) regular parking 'charge! At the same time, the irritating inconvenience serves as (1) a punishment for your 'rebellion' ("baaad slave!") and (2) an incentive to change your mind (either buy the joint house or move into the apartment). But, like I said: "Well, you've made it hard for me to visit yours so it's only reasonable you come to me or for YOU to take the payable parking spot!" (in your head: 'like any normal, nice bloke WOULD!'). HOWEVER...saying that, the new, parking headache might be a deterrent...he might WANT your trysts to soon be always at yours. That way, you won't ever turn up early or unexpected and see any parked car belonging to some other woman he's started warming-up and conning of cash/avoiding expenditure. This would be in order to (a) keep up appearances with you re. still having his own cash in his wallet...think about what you'd think if from now-on, suddenly he didn't? or (b) getting her primed to take your place in case you tell him it's Over. They are always-always, right from when they meet or start dating you(!), preparing our replacement; they KNOW you're not going to be doing a Sleeping Beauty job FOREVER...they spend their lives getting dumped or ("hit or be hit") try to pip you to the post by dumping YOU right before you, they can sense you're nearing (predator senses), dump them. Don't know yet...let's keep watching that space. Meanwhile - but how are you FEELING about him/it all at the mo? Hurt, angry and resentful? How badly out of 10?

Meh. "Turnabout is fair play" has it's place. I guess, but now it's starting to sound a little manipulative, at least to me. I don't see him changing. No one can *force* another person to change. "Playing along" as if this will all work out sounds like it's just adding to the OP's aggravation when he keeps hectoring her about 'when.' Maybe not, maybe she sees something here I don't. I'd be saying "I don't see that happening, Buddy," and letting the chips fall. The sadness that he'd take a powder and go find another source of income would last about a month. The freedom from being nattered at about something I didn't want to do is forever. But that's me.

Hi everyone. I’ve taken a much needed break by visiting my daughter with my son out of state for five days and I’m back to the real world now. I need to think through what my next steps are with my boyfriend. Unfortunately, there are a lot of events which are imminent that we planned on going together so I’m trying to figure out what the best thing is to do. One item that I would like your input on is that I we have one more month, (June) of the original lease that I signed with him. Technically, June would be my “turn“ to pay since we were alternating months for the rent. Should I just tell him since I’m not living there that I don’t plan on paying it? Or should I just pay it and let it go? If I tell him that I don’t plan on paying for the June rent even though it’s the last month of the lease that we shared and he gives me pushback. Should I just and things then despite all the events we have planned for the next few weeks? Another issue is that we planned a trip to Europe in July. He’s never asked for the money but I know he does expect me to pay my half and I’ve been dragging my feet because of the issues I’ve been having with him. Assuming I end the relationship before this time, there will be a forfeiture of most of the monies unless there’s a way of getting it compensated in the whole, or a part for the travel insurance, which is really for medical reasons. As it turns out, he does have a medical issue which he may be able to get some documentation on that affects his mobility. What do I do about this?

(OM, Turnabout and Forcing? You forgot to quote either of us so I'm not sure I understand which bits you're referring to? Can you paste in where myself or MTF said those things or gave you that impression? Same for where it's getting 'a little manipulative'? Cheers!)

"Hi everyone. I’ve taken a much needed break by visiting my daughter with my son out of state for five days and I’m back to the real world now. I need to think through what my next steps are with my boyfriend. Unfortunately, there are a lot of events which are imminent that we planned on going together so I’m trying to figure out what the best thing is to do. One item that I would like your input on is that I we have one more month, (June) of the original lease that I signed with him. Technically, June would be my “turn“ to pay since we were alternating months for the rent. Should I just tell him since I’m not living there that I don’t plan on paying it? Or should I just pay it and let it go? If I tell him that I don’t plan on paying for the June rent even though it’s the last month of the lease that we shared and he gives me pushback. Should I just and things then despite all the events we have planned for the next few weeks? Another issue is that we planned a trip to Europe in July. He’s never asked for the money but I know he does expect me to pay my half and I’ve been dragging my feet because of the issues I’ve been having with him. Assuming I end the relationship before this time, there will be a forfeiture of most of the monies unless there’s a way of getting it compensated in the whole, or a part for the travel insurance, which is really for medical reasons. As it turns out, he does have a medical issue which he may be able to get some documentation on that affects his mobility. What do I do about this?" ************************** Hi-Hi! I realise you've come back feeling quite a bit like a new woman (*huge grin at you*), but - woah there, speedy....calm your jets! 'Only fools rush in where angels fear to tread" (fyi angels are hard ***ards as equally as they are lovely-mushies). Seriously...To help or advise you to decide, I need more data: 1. These Events: In order of soonest: What and when is each event; how many people are to attend; is it your social-group or his that's hosting it or that invited you; and how long ago/on what past date did each plan/invitation get agreed on? (PS: It might be that you'll have to lie to the liar or again counter-manipulate/dodge the manipulator. But that's a GOOD thing when used in self-defence when someone seems very convincingly to be 'coming at you' and in a way that could seriously harm you (emotionally, financially, every-ally). But there again, you might not. Don't know yet.) Tell me what you'd decide/formaulate if Jesus himself floated down in front of you right now and said, 'Feel free to do whatever you want and see fit, and you have my word that there will be zero negative consequences and need for regret for you and yours'. Tell me that and I'll see if I can fashion or help you fashion something as close to that as possible. (If not, or if you really couldn't even say what that ideal is right now, then your choice will have to come from the standard, experienced-expert-agreed-and-recommended Menu for your precise type of case.) Your answer to this is key in then deciding what the sensible choices are, regarding June's final rent payment and then regarding this trip. I'll be checking-in tomorrow. (So pleased you had a lovely time.) :)

Wait up - I forgot to head your huge over-conscientiousness's susceptibility towards misplaced guilt off at the pass (silly me LOL)*: EDIT: "Tell me what you'd decide/formaulate if Jesus himself floated down in front of you right now and said, 'Feel free to do whatever you want and see fit, and you have my word that there will be zero negative consequences and need for regret for you and yours. And it will be the best lesson and catalyst that could ever have happened to your Ex when it comes to finally taking responsibility for improving his own quality of life'." (* Nah...only joking. Truth is: You, Madam, are a true Lady.)

Memorial Day weekend his friends invited us to their beach house for the weekend. Invited about 6 weeks ago. 2nd week of June invited to a baby naming from his friends family. Invited about 8 weeks ago assume 45 to 50 ppl July 15 to 26 trip planned for Europe for the 2 of us and another couple he’s friends with. Rent for June due June 1. His sons wedding is mid September. Given a choice I’d not go to any of above. He is attending a wedding this weekend which is the daughter of my friend so I was considering a potential breakup right after that or after the beach trip the following weekend.

Hi-Hi, I'm with you. Attending any of those would be highly inappropriate now that you know you want to end the 'relationship' (OR you could back away by making out you're insisting on a month or more's separation (including if he argues about breaking-up altogether) to (white, only semi-lie) 'give you the headspace to catch up with yourself and where you're at, as well as about to be, and finish getting over the last of your grief, blah-blah...' - whatever...just some "it's not you, it's me" sentiment (so as not to rattle the gorilla's cage), followed a couple of weeks later with: 'Turns out it WAS you and not me' (said safely over the phone, of course, including because you can just cut the call if he gets funny/aggressive/pushy). But if you feel you want to end it as soon as, say, this weekend or early next week, then, naturally, all prior promises or social engagements will automatically expire alongside, anyway. As for YOUR occasion - your friend's daughter. Technically, to come out of this with your nose clean, you shouldn't take a bloke, knowing you're about to dump him. That would be you, knowingly, deliberately HOODWINKING AND USING *HIM*. Don't drop your standards and etiquette that far for *anyone* if you don't have to. Certainly not if only because you would rather be a Plus One (...what about a female friend, male friend, daughter, relative?). HOWEVER, I concede it is overly short notice already and you (and I) would rather you felt far more ready and prepared than this. If when you do it, you sound uncertain (show weakness), it won't work. There again - playing Devil's Advocate: He's NOT "a bloke" and - that'll learn him in future?! (or not) And it's not as if he hasn't deserved it and brought it all on himself so... what goes around, comes around?... ...Grey area. You've a right to feel like you want to get SOMETHING out of this debacle of a relationship. And it WOULD be good to sample what it's like to dare say NO and really mean it (to practise being - shock-horror - not such a Good Girl/"impolite" BACK to a *rude/bad* person), and not having to repeat yourself a second time or more, so... This one is your call entirely. The soonest social occasion after that, however, is Beach House 29th May Weekend, and we're on the 17th, giving you 12 days. If you AREN'T ready to confess to wanting to cancel the entire relationship much before the 17th, what I'd do if I were you would be to see it as you making a START on ending the relationship (benefitting from a practise run) courtesy of this weekend event. (And make it seem you're "having to" cancel (and with reasonable notice so as not to alert him to the bigger issue).) Suggested type of excuse: something not in your control, e.g., a long-awaited minor but important op - take it, or go to the back of the NHS queue! (Obviously you've GOT to take THAT!). Otherwise, if you go, he and his "friends" could join ranks to work on you and wear you down over the house-buying refusal. Being ganged-up on by three other individuals is hard enough to withstand, without adding the deficit in confidence from being on someone else's territory, far from home. And even if he/they didn't succeed, it would still be less of a break and more an ordeal. AND, of course, you'd feel trapped into having to sleep and possibly have s*x with him in their spare room! (Does that alone do it for you? LOL) I personally, were I you with only a week's grace, would let him come to friends' daughter's wedding (IF you really feel capable) and then start small and tentatively (the practise run) with this beachhouse event (by which I mean, if I didn't have a comfortable amount of time in the run-up in which to actually dump him and, with him, all forward-dates in one, single hit. So, yes: go ahead with this wedding this weekend (if you can), cancel the beachhouse, THEN whenever you're ready, follow up fairly swiftly (2 weeks max.) with 'Actually, having thought this over - ....etc'. I would DEFINITELY advise against going into his friend's beachside liion's den under this latest pressuring/badgering into restrained but patent bullying attempt climate of his (on top of everything else). Re the financial penalties for cancelling: You have to honour the rent contract. Yes I know you shouldn't have been added to begin with, but you were and legally promised to pay it. Your only legally-sanctioned recourse would be Petty Claims or Civil court, but it's a relatively petty amount, given how much you COULD have ended up spending/losing thanks to him! As for the trip to Europe: whom out of the two of you booked it or did you each do it yourselves?

PS: Ready already, eh? Aren't YOU full of surprises! :D Well done, I'm proud of you and this sudden Oomph. You've got one hell of a speedy, multi-tasking brain in that head of yours, that's for sure! :)

(PS just-in-case - because I wouldn't put it past him - if you used the minor op after a long wait excuse and he asked what the op is, I would just say, a quiet, firm, "It's personal" and refuse to say ANYTHING else about it or get drawn in to a whole long discussion/argument.)

PPS: Scratch the question about did you each pay your own half of this trip - I've just realised you'd already answered it. Not that I couldn't have guessed because it's a very common scam-ette ploy (in amongst the total, myriad, early-days scamettes before they shift up to higher amounts), but - HE paid. Haha. I know a lady in real-life who had this done to her (about 6 months ago). She did pay her half in cash to him immediately. He, the sociopath, obviously didn't pay her back her share of the trip when she ended it (by phone, friend beside her for moral support), even though a bit of follow-up detective work on her friend's part, showed he'd kept the 2-person booking that he'd made and simply changed her, 'the second passenger's name, on the booking to that of another woman (one of his secret harem, hence was available at such little notice). So the fact you HAVEN'T paid him back yet is brilliant news! Cost to him of your half-cost of the trip cancels out (ish - yes?) the insult of legally having to honour June's last rent payment, ta-daa. What a stroke of luck (or your intuition?) (both, probably...'someone up there' likes you).

Thanks again for all of your understanding and support!

my comment was based on the impression that the OP was *on her way* out, and was just placating Mr. Right Now telling him they'd be moving in together eventually. If that's off the table, why not just say, "That's off the table," so he doesn't keep nagging her about it? People break up every day. Every. Day. And the party who wanted things to continue, he or she goes on. A little sadder, maybe. They reschedule vacations or take a buddy. They call the bride and groom and tell them to take a name off the rsvp list, or take another guest. (I once attended a wedding with a work-mate because she just could bring a guest and her date fell through, and she didn't want to go alone.) As a matter of fact, I have gone to weddings alone. And Meet-ups. And church. He's a grown man, for heaven's sake. He was doing things alone before he met you (or should have been). Bottom line, you don't owe it to him to attend one more thing. Not one, if you want to break up. And you don't have to break up. If you want to keep seing him, go ahead, just do it with your eyes open, and your purse closed.

What are your thoughts on me paying rent for the last month of lease assuming I won’t be there? What about any loss of travel funds I haven’t paid to him yet?

You agreed to pay half the rent, so you could pay that, and not on the travel. Look, people do this. They break up. You don't want to travel with him don't. MR. SEVEN MILLION DOLLARS DOESN'T NEED YOUR MONEY! What are you thinking? He can find another friend to go with him. He can use his travel insurance (and these days, you'd be foolish to not have that). He may not have seven mill, but if he complains, you'd be well within your rights to say, "You told me you have seven million dollars, so a ten day trip isn't going to break you." Good grief, you're acting as if this is all going to change his life irreparably, and it's not. It's just not going to. He's had a marriage that ended after a number of years. He's had other partners, maybe, between the divorce and you. He dated them once or twice or a month or a year, and the world did not come to an end when those relationships ended.

OM, this isn't a normal break-up because he's not a normal bloke. If it was and if he were, it WOULD be that easy. Ask yourself WHY the OP isn't just insta-cutting him off. It's not the practicals that are the barriers here. Read this to gain some appreciation on how a normal relationship will backfire here, and WHY MTF needs to be mentally ready to do it (which, pressuring is going to do the opposite of help): http://www.sociopathworld.com/2008/10/how-to-break-up-with-sociopath.html "How to break up with a sociopath Breaking up with a sociopath is admittedly hard for both the target and the sociopath. Many people say the best way is to go cold turkey and cut off all contact. That is the quickest way. If quickest always means best in your mind, then I guess it would also be the best way. Depending on your sociopath, though, it might feel more like breaking off a thumb to free yourself from handcuffs than ripping off a band-aid. The truth is that you and your sociopath have formed a symbiotic relationship. You may think you owe him nothing, but the relationship matters to the sociopath in ways you cannot guess or understand. You may think the sociopath respects your boundaries, but the sociopath will not be sympathetic to your assertions of your needs. The sociopath does not have or respect boundaries. The sociopath has his needs, too, and will fight to make sure that they are met. You do not want to get into an all-out fight with a sociopath when the sociopath feels like his survival is threatened. You will lose. With a sociopath, the best thing to do is to make the breakup seem like it was his or her choice. Like with ticks or other parasites, you want to poison the well so the sociopath willingly leaves. Become a helpless, emotionless, reactionless burden. Start being contrary, without being openly defiant. If the sociopath likes to go out, develop a preference for staying in. Stop bathing. Focus on work. Pretend you're tired, sick, depressed, say you forgot your keys, you forgot to feed the goldfish, be incompetent but make everything seem like an accident. If the sociopath gets mad, say sorry, but don't fight back. Say "I don't know what's come over me." Have long phone conversations with your mother or other people the sociopath hates. In general, let yourself go completely and be as intolerable to live with as possible without being confrontational. This may seem very passive-aggressive, but after about three months (give or take), the sociopath will be out of your life. You should be in the clear after your sociopath has been gone three to six months. By that time the sociopath will not need you to satisfy any of his basic needs, and will see you instead for what you really are--probably a weak-willed whining sissy. Think this is unnecessarily complicated and time-intensive? I suggest you watch Sleeping with the Enemy and let me know if you think there are better alternatives."

MTF, FYI, the writer doesn't mean you ARE a weak-willed whining sissy (should have put it in quote marks), this is what the Sociopath's sick mind will delude himself you are (so that his super-fragile ego doesn't have to deal with the fact that will, still, eventually dawn on him - that you evaded him by 'going floppy and pathetic/boring on the supermarket floor', and thereby manipulated HIM...out of your life and away from your wealth and goodies. WITH BARELY A SCRATCH. And knowing you did everything right and make a LOVELY partner/gf. Just mistakenly with a wrong'un. I.e. who's the thick sap NOW, pal! The hunted has become hunter. Meanwhile you haven't given him ANY clues about What NOT To Do/Say Next Time. The until-then rare failure, meanwhile, will knock him completely off his stride, giving other 'chained' or about-to-be victims a chance to realise it and cut him out of their lives. He'll probably have to switch to street crime. Where, hopefully, the Police will at some point pick him up. (Ta-daa.) I know this is what happens because unlike too many, I follow-up (in RL, I mean). :)

Read this too, please (both of you) (and anyone in the same or worse boat, following this), paying particular attention to 'First Thing's First' and 'Lie To Them' and 'Be Safe When Leaving A Sociopath) onwards: i.e. additionally what NEVER to do when breaking-up with a Sociopath (whether cohabiting or not)...INCLUDING: "Do not tell them we want out, and do not attempt a “break up talk”" Repeat: Do NOT. ************************************************************* https://www.truelovescam.com/how-to-end-it-with-a-sociopath/ How To Break Up With a Sociopath or Narcissist 15 Replies When we see through the façade we reach a moment when we want to breakaway and end it. Ending it with a narcissist or a sociopath is a very scary hell of its own. They seem so all-powerful and in control. In truth, sociopaths’ lives are shallow and transparent. They fall apart as we begin to glimpse their empty souls. The scary part is what they do to hang on. They let us think we’re in a relationship and we feel we are. Therefore, naturally, we do what normal people do: We give it our all. And then as time passes we see that things aren’t adding up. We’ve had enough promises, sob stories, chaos. Enough lies. When the malarkey outweighs the good we thought was there, we come to a point where we’re ready to toss out the trash. When We’ve Had Enough of the Lies and Abuse from a Sociopath Trash is all they are, but because we’re normal people, the thing is, it takes as long as it takes for us to absorb this. As they take what they want, lives are destroyed for their own survival and it not only doesn’t faze them, they take it as a personal accomplishment. They spend our money. Want sexual things we don’t. Include us. Exclude us. Entrust us. Suspect us. Play sick. Stay out late. Keep us from our family or friends. Don’t work. Are gone a lot. They pretend to work very hard. Don’t answer our texts. Don’t pick up our calls. Block us from their Facebook. Keep us from our faith. Cry fake tears. Lie even more. And more. Then lie some more. We begin to not quite believe them… We have doubts. We then rationalize more, because that is normal. And then, more doubts, more nuttiness…. And then. Snap. No more. Nope. The spell breaks. This is when it’s suddenly more terrifying to stay than to leave. End it With a Sociopath: Sociopaths aka Narcissists Know Every Scam Relationship Will End If you’re not convinced these are scams rather than relationships, read these words from a self-professed sociopath about how we can get how to get rid of them. They want out too. They know each scam will end, and if we want them out before they fail and bail – which most people think of as being devalued and discarded – but is not in fact what’s happening at all… We can do this: “The best thing to do is to make the breakup seem like it was his or her choice. Like with ticks or other parasites, you want to “poison the well” so the sociopath willingly leaves. Become a helpless, emotionless, reactionless burden. Start being useless or contrary, without being openly defiant… Pretend you’re tired, sick, depressed, say you forgot your keys, you forgot to feed the goldfish, be incompetent but make everything seem like an accident. If the sociopath gets mad, say sorry, but don’t fight back. Say “I don’t know what’s come over me.” Have long phone conversations with your mother or other people the sociopath hates. In general, let yourself go completely and be as intolerable to live with as possible without being confrontational. After about three months (give or take), the sociopath will be out of your life. You should be in the clear after your sociopath has been gone three to six months. By that time the sociopath will not need you to satisfy any of her basic needs.” ~ Advice on how to make them leave, from a sociopath Guidelines to Break Free of the Sociopath Nut Case Here are guidelines to end it with a sociopath safely and as quickly as can be and with the least fallout. There will be fallout. We will be frightened. It will feel like eons before they go. After they go we’ll go through post-traumatic stress. Doing nothing would be much, much, much, much, much, much, much worse. We can protect ourselves. We can take immediate action. We can end this. How to Leave a Narcissistic Sociopath You’re going to become useless. Cut off goods and services. The sociopath will be baffled, taken aback, and pissed….That dinner isn’t on the table so to speak. And leave within weeks. Keep loving. Keep living like a real human. We are awesome. You are awesome. First Things First: Do not tell them we want out, and do not attempt a “break up talk” Do not confide in them, confess to them how you’re feeling Keep your feelings to yourself Don’t confront or question them about anything; be silent or passively agreeable Keep generally behaving as you have been Be a calm, pleasant, passive blank when they’re in the same room Do not allow your thoughts and plans of escaping roll through your mind in their presence Pretend to still like them just the same as before The Next Thing We Can Do is Lie to Them As unbelievable as it might seem, sociopaths are each and all alike. Identical tactics and the same limited thinking. We can use their weaknesses to get them gone. – You might be thinking of them as a narcissist and reading up on narcissists – that’s okay, but if you’ve been lied to or used for your money, they won’t lift a finger, and they have stopped being physically intimate with you… That’s a sociopath laying up there on your couch. Keep our plan to ourselves. Protect ourselves and our belongings immediately – secretly. Don’t hesitate. Do this now. Why…? – Because sociopaths steal and destroy at the end. They’re thieves. And liars. Psychopaths like to take things like a dog pissing on a fire hydrant – just to say: I was here. They want last-minute funding, a car, a credit card – and to leave us holding the bag. They steal or sell identities. Do they all steal? Every time? If they feel like it – yes. They have no conscience. No guilt. No love. They’re criminals. And they’re mean. Better to protect ourselves than be tragically sorry. Sociopaths Steal: Especially at the End of a “Relationship” Remove all of the following from your home to a safe location such as a friend’s house, your workplace, or a safe deposit box. Use this checklist: Anything we care about for its sentimental or monetary value: The first items that come to mind are the ones. If he knows you treasure them, protect them. They go through our things – our drawers, closets, cupboards, dressers – that secret p! ace – they’ll sniff it out, to find things to take. Valuable jewelry in gold, silver, precious stones, watches, etc. Things they can pawn or sell. Cameras, laptops, audio gear, guns, anything easy to lift, and take away. Photographs of the two of you. Including evidence of his abuse, your marriage, and anything compromising. Documents. All of them. Anything legal. Copy his. Make copies of ours and the kids. Then, along with the originals secure them safely out of the house. You don’t believe they’d steal…? Think again before it’s too late. Protect yourself. Secure Originals & Copies Where the User Cannot Find Them Passports Social Security cards and numbers Birth Certificates Marriage Certificates Mortgage papers Car registrations Auto insurance Credit card information and statements and all numbers Bank account information Stocks, bonds, CDs, and all banking, investment, or monetary records Immigration papers Change all our passwords, PINS, and logins Have extra house or apartment, even car keys made and give them to a trusted friend to hold Write down numbers or better yet photocopies or take pictures of: The sociopath’s Passport, IDs, driver’s licenses, credit cards Bank or credit card statements Social Security number Receipts or pics or copies of wire money transfers from or to him or her If he has a car write down his license plate number, car make and model, take photos of it, take down the VIN number Keep photos of his face to ID him in case law enforcement, FBI, DEA or immigration become involved Be Safe When Leaving a Sociopath Here’s what I did: Hands shaking I took his credit cards out of his wallet. – MY credit accounts that I’d made him an “authorized user” on – while he was in the shower. My heart was pounding out of my chest. Then – I lied. I said: The credit cards (three cards altogether) had been canceled by the card companies for going over the limit. – He’d taken them over the limit – but I made no accusation, I gave no detail, no other explanation – I said it apologetically, but with conviction. I said I did it to protect him – I said if he used them in public they’d be confiscated by the retailer and, with a pathetic fake concern for him I passively whined, I wouldn’t want you to be embarrassed like that. It absolutely worked: they believe anything you say. Was it scary…? Yes. Terrifying. I was saving my life. Nothing Stops Them: We End It, We Stop It Then a few days later I lied again. I said I’d lost my wallet so the checking account debit card had been canceled. I stopped putting my paycheck in our joint bank account – then I closed it. – Guess what? He knew how to reopen it. I had to have the bank keep an eye out for 24 hours to make sure it stayed closed. I watched him stay in the game no matter what lie I told. The surreal mounts, but now we’re in control. Ride it out. The way will open. There’s Nothing They Won’t Do or Say Here’s the thing: sociopaths make all kinds of preposterous claims as they lie their way through life. – Amazingly I found I could say anything and he played along as if it were true, though I was sure he knew it wasn’t. I’d stumbled on sociopath-magic-rules-of-engagement: any lie is true. It was almost a high to fly so near the fringes and outsmart this being I now called in my head: The Monster. It was pure improvisation – life-saving improvisation on my part… it was normal live-by-the-seat-of-his-pants-all-is-a-lie for him. Underneath it, we both knew our dynamics were shifting like silently colliding tectonic plates deep within the foundations bringing inescapable unpredictable and life-threatening upheaval that I determined – no matter what – would settle as a forced departure for him – and freedom for me. Protect Ourselves When a Sociopath Leaves Passwords and PINS and logins. Change them. All. If we can – block him or her on social media. As in using the actual “block” function on Twitter, Instagram, Linkedin, and all the rest. They won’t be notified, but they’ll also no longer see any of our Facebook, or other social media activity. – We also will not be able to see theirs. It’s called going no contact. Shut Down the Things the Sociopath is Enjoying Become absolutely useless to them. If we usually make dinner. Stop. If we normally take out the garbage and make the bed. Don’t. Forget his dry cleaning. Stop doing his laundry or leave it lumpy and half-damp in the laundry basket. Passively, quietly, humbly, meekly, say, “Oh, my gosh. I’m so sorry, hon.” And nothing else. Period You just gave a lifesaving Academy Award-winning performance. Keep it up. Forget his favorite food. Sleep late, Stop cleaning. Disappear after work without calling him. Leave the car without gas. Forget to pay the internet bill – tell him it’s being shut off. Tell him your savings account is empty. Don’t talk at home. Keep to yourself. Sleep. Go into your room. Leave unexpectedly. Talk to your sister even though they hate it when we do. Focus on You Well Being From This Moment On Do whatever truly lifts you up and leads to breakthroughs. Go back to church or meditation, working out, making art, or whatever faith or strength-giving endeavor they tried to stop us from practicing. When they talk look away, bored. Walk out of the room. Have something better to do in the times we used to spend with them. Have no cash to hand out. Pay no more of his or her bills. Simply say: Oh, gosh. Sorry, hon. And nothing else. That tiny line will do it all. Delivering it means you just graduated to “expert in deceiving a sociopath.” Be proud. Prepare For Safety and a Smooth Exit Consider carrying a change of clothes and overnight things or having spares at work. Just a precaution. – Again this is without their knowledge. – If the sociopath invading your life is already violent with you – all the more so take this precaution. Make extra house keys. Give some to a really trusted good friend who had no connection to the sociopath. If you’re leaving the clutches of an actively violent sociopath please check with professional advisers on domestic violence. Here’s to REAL True Love and Happiness! *************************************************************

He came to me the other day because of the wedding tonight and yesterday he was asking about finding a home and restating a search by November!

This was my customised recommendation (obviously TrueLoveScam's Jennifer Smith et al haven't been privy to everything on here, their guidance is broad-brushed). "OR you could back away by making out you're insisting on a month or more's separation (including if he argues about breaking-up altogether) to (white, only semi-lie) 'give you the headspace to catch up with yourself and where you're at, as well as about to be, and finish getting over the last of your grief, blah-blah...' - whatever...just some "it's not you, it's me" sentiment (so as not to rattle the gorilla's cage), followed a couple of weeks later with: 'Turns out it WAS you and not me' (said safely over the phone, of course, including because you can just cut the call if he gets funny/aggressive/pushy)." He's in an extraordinary hurry for funding. He can't afford to be patient if a "relationship"-enmeshment-delaying obstacle crashes onto your path, be it practical or psychological. He'll have to abandon you in order to rush off and tend to his other women (being warmed-up or being kept-warm-on-the-side), to get one of THEM to "loan" him money (or make one your 'replacement' by, say, claiming to have had an epiphany about how SHE was The One, all along - "marry me"...all that BS)... Having thought about it a bit more... Were it me, I'd claim I'd caught Covid. "How long's a piece of string", especially when there's Long Covid? Haha, that'd insta-send him elsewhere, thinking he were "neglecting" you in your time of woe (they HATE taking care of 'the needy') whilst he worked at double-speed on Ann Other down the road... And then, as I say, you could follow up (lie so's to avoid triggering his violent ego) with (- trying not to puke): 'Turns out it's not Covid, it's you....What I mean is, I'm not good enough for you, I'm wrong for you, you need a woman who loves being impulsive and taking risks...I'd only cramp your style....Plus, now, I have Long Covid...So that's why I'm trying to do the right thing in setting you free to fulfil your greater potential' (cringe). Although, what with not being able to determine how long that piece of Covid string were, I doubt you'd even get the 'opportunity'. You'd probably get Unobtainable. (Phew! and Hurrah!) That one, I call 'Going Floppy & Ill/Needing His Care & Input (FAT CHANCE! - THESE ARE THE CANCER-PATIENT SPOUSE ABANDONERS) on the Floor', haha.

"He came to me the other day because of the wedding tonight and yesterday he was asking about finding a home and restating a search by November!" Hi! Can you go into far greater detail on those two, please?

While I'm waiting: "Out of town but did have a heart to heart with him today. He is going to lease on his own. I’m not selling my house. Our relationship’s future is up in the air. He understands fully." See, now - now/today, how he's STILL hard-pressuring you to buy a house - with he who claims he can afford it solo! - ..how him understanding fully has made absolutely zero difference to his agenda and behaviour? He truly doesn't care if the relationship ends, just as long as he's somehow appropriated or future-appropriated a huge chunk of your wealth/old-age security BEFORE it does (and they can do it merely hours or minutes before). He can (remember he's ferrel, meaning, predator senses) SENSE in you that you're thinking/feeling the end is nigh (unless he can re-brainwash you in what now is possibly too little time). And that's why he didn't just do what normal people do and phone to discuss the wedding. He knew it was too important not to bring his physical presence and *power of intimidation* into the conversation (and in your face).

MTF, PS: You can probably tell from both those articles - their gravity (as well as Jennifer's well-earned tone of contempt) and having thought of everything - that you're getting to escape "prematurely", compared to most women? In my experience (including other people's), that roughly 18mth/2yr point, being the FIRST urge to escape, is the most vital. If you can escape/'make him disappear' successfully on your very first go, you won't then end up however-many months later, re-realising you're trapped again and had been right the first time, all along, but now facing a HARDER battle for the the fact you're (by-then) increasingly becoming too mentally or physically or financially (or whatever ally) incapable. Paralysed. Mentally. ("I used to be Indecisive, but now I'm not so sure")(haha-not; decisions become almost impossible and take AGES). Thus also physically. By then it takes on nigh-on Cold War Spy efforts! Because, of course, that first time - HE'S NOT EXPECTING IT. (He might sense you WANT to but he's arrogant and doesn't know any extra bullying or love-bombing can't work any more). Particularly not, if you've played Pathetic/Ill in the run-up. Whereas, after you've tried once but been 'caught'/Hoovered, he's then always watching out for it, as well as setting about 'tightening security' so it can't happen again, meaning, you have to get more creative with each attempt and (by then) have to have so many requisite but out-of-your-control elements colliding at-once with your sudden burst of oomph and determination (Too Scared/Disturbed To Stay) aka being in the zone. This is why they say it can take the victim-survivor up to 7 attempts to leave a malig. narc or spath. (Don't worry - not you. You know too much now.) In other words, the very first opportune (well thought-through) attempt is the SIMPLES AND EASIEST. If you don't make your move that bit too soon or sudden. The sensation you're looking for is, "Ugh...I can't do this biding-my-time a MOMENT LONGER - I'M A CELEBRITY, GET HIM OUT OF HERE!" (haha, but you get the gist). Revulsion, Angry Resentment and Irritation towards him, Anger at yourself, Loss of patience, Total end of tether - COMPELLED AND COMPULSED... Trust me, don't worry about "the moment": if you see it that you've one chance to escape relatively easily and quickly, you TOO can lie like a Bafta Award-winning actor! It's just, we don't know this about ourselves at that point because, of course, we never needed to try (duh, lol). But with this lot, you do, because their success at your expense relies on the victim sticking staunchly to their ingrained-plus-trained politeness and goodness (and feeling sorry for poor wee thing) to make you powerless and weaponless against them. (I don't have that problem so - when it's done, do send him an appropriate hand-signal from me, won't you? LOL) PPS: Equally, you could claim you've just lost a whole shedload of money and just couldn't face telling him (unpaid taxes having caught up with you, say?...scammed in a foreign Timeshare?) You could make-up anything plausible, really (especially given what Jennnifer up there explains re their "believing and acting according to your lie"), couldn't you! Given that you've got back-up/supervision (me), as well as post-dump (if you need), try to have a bit of fun with it, that's what I say. (Afterwards, once you're over it, you're going to feel how powerful you actually are and were all along (before you had too much of it nurtured-out of you "like a good girl" as if somehow there are nothing but kind and decent people out there!). That's not something you ever forget. :) Although, of course - in the 50s, they simply called all this necessary self-defensive counter-manipulation, Feminine Wiles!)

By the way: if you "get Covid" followed by "Long Covid", you can't possibly go on any beach weekend or trip! It's out of the question! And only a FIEND would still think of charging you under THOSE circumstances, wouldn't they! (fake shocked face)

"Ask yourself WHY the OP isn't just insta-cutting him off." Because, up 'til now, she has enjoyed their time together. Look, I think the guy's trouble, and so does SM. But *we* aren't the ones slated to renew our membership to Siver Singles once this fellow is history. As I said a month ago, if the OP were honest and said, "I frankly don't see myself selling my home," he would probably have hit the road. He would have chalked it up as his decision (a point mentioned in one of the resources you linked to). So the comments of "I keep selling my things for when it's time" are actually dishonest, and keeping the relationship going. I suspect there has been enough good about the time that the OP is ambivalent about ending it. Just because SM and I wouldn't continue with him doesn't mean the OP has to have the same opinion.

Had a very nice time with my bf at wedding last night. I did talk to my bf today and told him there’s no guarantee I’d ever sell my home and that I still really enjoy my home and it’s very hard to give it up. I also told him when he mentions looking for a new home it makes me anxious and I didn’t appreciate him making me feel guilty a few weeks ago when I decided not to stay late to see a home. I expected him to say that if that’s the case there’s no point in continuing the relationship but he didn’t. He said he understands and then he went on to plan our beach weekend next weekend. Guess I’m going next weekend but know the end is likely near. My adult daughter was furious with me for mot putting my foot down and telling I’m is not see him anymore.

""Ask yourself WHY the OP isn't just insta-cutting him off." Because, up 'til now, she has enjoyed their time together." No. It's because this isn't a normal relationship (not a relationship at all!) because he's NOT A NORMAL BLOKE. He doesn't want a relationship - he wants a mother-provider, but whom to "his" public, upholds the ruse that he's a normal chap, having worked hard to earn all "his" current wealth and having passed all normal, mature-family-man landmarks. BUT IT'S ALL YOURS. He's merely appropriated it via his fake position as your new life-partner. Now he has a fantastic, Honest, Reliable, Good Guy ("got his own stuff, anyway, wouldn't need any of ours") mask, meaning, he now has access to a whole, new, (compared to him) well-off targets to work on (the sophistication of his cons goes 'up' a level, such as, schmoozing the friends/neighbours into up-front investing in some fake company or deal). "So the comments of "I keep selling my things for when it's time" are actually dishonest, and keeping the relationship going." No. The comments are cleverly, intelligently, self-preservationally, weaning him off (read those last articles again). Especially as they're like toddlers - can't sit still and be patient, always distractable by the latest shiny thing (person). This isn't about severing a normal, whatever depth, bond between two normal people. It's a Master-Slave/Conman-Mark, (google - ) *Trauma Bond* ---and so much more, including confidence-shredder (which you vitally need to be mentally CAPABLE of ending/escaping THE ENMESHMENT). And they always ensure they have something you want back, or owe you for something (or you, them)...loose ends that feel imperative to be tied. MTF's dread of being single/on the market again, is not the obstacle, the main boulder facing her and blocking her path. It's just a side-rock...it just doesn't HELP matters. Same for the fact she wants as much of her money back (and/or to avoid having to waste more) as possible: it just doesn't HELP. You can hear she WANTS to end it - right? THIS IS THE MENTAL EFFECT, YOU INCREASINGLY START TO REALISE, THAT HAVING SPENT SO MUCH TIME (AND INVESTMENT) WITH HIM HAS HAD ON YOU...REDUCED YOU TO. First, you have to get your head around the fact that you've been tricked and conned - and that's a big ask, for starters. Maybe this will help. But if not, OM, you please need to realise that MTF seeing you challenging/questioning and re-questioning things, unbeknownst to you or anyone who doesn't have a good understanding of NPD-AsPD and their "relationships", any even unintended, even just seeming invalidation, can even subliminally re-victimise the Victim and put their confidence back: plus it becomes even more difficult to end it without *consistently* staunch support and a fairly uncluttered 'evidence table'. So for that reason alone (at this vital juncture) - because, don't get me wrong - I AM PLEASED you're taking an interest, still - it might be more helpful if you were to save any *questions and need for clarification* for AFTER MTF has severed ties with this 'thing', at which point I'll be again happy to do so (and hopefully so will MTF?). I do also appreciate how really hard it is at first to get your brain around it all, even if you know enough about NPD on its own - hence hopefully this following extract re the Narcissistic-Sociopath/Sociopathic-Narcissist (whichever order, point being the TWO PDs 'mixed' together, quite possibly Paranoid PD as well) will help in the interim. (Also remember that the NPD-AsPD tends to use Overt (noise and chaos) to keep you distracted from the serious Covert (Spath-level) things they're doing behind your back, meanwhile getting you to forgive them/to re-instate the con-job, by (once you're incarcerated behind closed doors) switching to the disarming Covert-Vulnerable style and tactic - The Pity Ploy (- ref top expert Martha Stout's warning again)..."I was horrid/despicable to you but boo-hoo meeeee!...can't you just forget about it and never mention it again? - you're SO MEEEAAAN TO MEEEE, boo-hoo..." (or, '.....I've just found out my favourite auntie's got Cancer'). Screech go the brakes and your opportunity, to tackle him or, worse, to cash in on a burst of confidence and tell him It's Over, is gone forever (unless you want to make yourself look like 'a TOTAL COW' by "hard-heartedly" persisting) - whatever works to disarm you and press the Fauxlationship "Re-Set Button". Narc Spaths are the worst because they can do you REAL-LIFE damage on TOP of emotional and psychological...even SPIRITUAL, EXISTENTIAL damage. If you're HEALTHY...DECENT...NORMAL...EMPATHETIC (aka Empathic), the understanding, tenacious, forgiving type who believes in and lives their life by the rules of Love and Respect...AND RICHER AND MORE CLASSY OR HARDER-WORKING AND CAPABLE/whatever THAN THEM... YOU'RE A TARGET AT SOME POINT IN YOUR LIFE (to be their secret Mummy/Daddy behind closed doors and "the adoring, Little Woman/Man" out-of-doors so that they can pretend they're COMPLETELY NORMAL and where, wealth and status-wise, they've WORKED for what they got, when they so haven't because they've simply got with YOU....(and woe betide if you don't play along). And they'll do that for as long as they can keep getting away with it/the money & free perks tree is still producing, and dropping, fruit. ((my comments)) ******************************************************************************************* https://madamenoire.com/1208922/how-to-break-up-with-a-sociopathic-narcissist-once-for-all/ "...First of all, what is a sociopathic narcissist? It’s important to note that sociopathy and narcissism are two different constructs, although they have traits in common and are both personality disorders. Specifically, narcissists suffer from narcissistic personality disorder, and sociopaths suffer from antisocial personality disorder. “In both conditions, the individual suffering from the disorder does the same thing over and over again, irrespective of the appropriateness of the behavior, the contingencies of the situation, or the negative consequences of it,” Hertlein says. “They lack the ability to self-monitor and self-correct in a given situation. In narcissism and sociopathy in particular, common behaviors include their contempt of others, their exploitation of others, and lack of empathy for others.” What are the differences between sociopathy and narcissism? The differences are in their traits and diagnosis, Hertlein explains. “Narcissism is characterized by their arrogance,” she says. “They believe they are entitled to special treatment, are exempt from life hassles and what would be normal consequences of their action, and demonstrate rage ((*)) when they are insufficiently admired. Those with antisocial personality disorder are still exploitive of others, but are also deceitful, callous, irritable, do not take responsibility for their own actions, do not conform to the law, disregard the safety of others, and lack remorse for their actions.” ((* Note: not all Narc-Spaths produce rage outwardly or consistently so: some rage coldly or covertly (e.g. Silent Treatment or bide their time to get secret or hidden/disguised thus denial revenge ("Plausible Deniability"). It's the AGENDA/INTENTIONS that matter. Identifying their preferred style/M.O. is only important to work out when, for prime example, it allows you to employ as well as finetune the correct self-defense and escape methods.)) Does technology affect the behavior of a sociopathic narcissist? Unfortunately, the short answer here is yes. Thanks to the Internet, social media, and the ubiquity of smartphones, sociopaths and narcissists can now wield more power and manipulation in a relationship than they’ve ever been able to before. “Technology makes it easier for the narcissist to control you,” Hertlein says. “They can more easily spy on you, they can lie about where they are with simple texts, and can more easily engage in hostile withholding and the silent treatment. On social media, you might pick up the overt narcissists with the rage and distortions in their tweets and posts, but the covert narcissists will be much harder to detect.” What makes dating a sociopathic narcissist difficult? It all comes down to their lack of empathy and their cognitive distortions. Often, their distortions about events are rooted in some level of reality, so they convince you that any issues between the two of you are just differences in perspectives, and that you, in fact, are the one who sees it wrong. This is otherwise known as gaslighting. “It is highly dangerous and manipulative,” Hertlein says. “When you call them out on the distortions and lies, you get hit with them punishing you so you learn not to question, and accept the line of baloney they are feeding you. In other words, they condition you to ignore your intuition.” How can dating a sociopathic narcissist become potentially dangerous? Because of all the gaslighting, you eventually lose trust in your own experience of the world. And that can lead you down a very dangerous path...“Because you have to keep telling yourself to not question, and that your gut is wrong,” Hertlein explains. “They control you while being disinterested in you. Narcissists are highly abusive, and also often engage in a pattern of punishment when you do not honor them in the way that they think you should.” ((And that's just the MENTALLY dangerous part. Here, we have one that's involving money-enmeshment (and too soon!), revealing that he is an actual FINANCIAL faker/scammer to-boot! He's that "Senior", now, that it's second-nature and (often but not always) like taking candy from babies. So they siphon (by living with you), secretly shave and save at your expense, and if the game looks like it's about to be up - finalise what they've had prepared, in terms of actually fleecing you. As soon as the sh*t hits the fan, their cruelty and dispicable-ness is astonishing, like nothing you ever imagined possible, except in tacky thrillers and psychological horrors. Trying to recover from Narcissistic Abuse (particularly Gaslighting and having your confidence shredded) is enough. Try adding unexpectedly losing a lot or all of your old-age savings on top because he was a Sociopathic scammer on top! And they can also turn violent at the point where they realise you really, truly are Ending It. Hence it's better, cleverer, to fade into his background as you make him want/need to do the same to you.)) Is it possible to break up with a sociopathic narcissist? While getting rid of these people is indeed possible, it’s not going to be easy. That’s because narcissists engage in a cycle of abuse in order to get you back. And they’re willing to do whatever it takes to feed their own ego. “They need you in their life so they can feel superior,” Hertlein says. “When someone initially breaks up with a narcissist, the narcissist sets forth on a path to win them back. We as the victim get confused because we think the narcissist wants us back. They don’t. They don’t care about you at all. What they lost at the breakup is someone who admires them — that is why they seek you out again.” ((That only describes the Narcissistic 'side', in fact. With Sociopaths, it's someone to admire/constantly forgive them AND increasingly LIVE off of/steal from and save expenditure by, safely, behind closed doors...but, if forced by you or circumstances to leave you - leave you 'stripped')) ...How can you stay broken up with a sociopathic narcissist? To make the breakup stick, going into a strict no-contact mode is absolutely essential. Any effort you give them will be exploited in order to win you back for their sake, not for yours or the relationship. This can be especially tough for people who are trauma-bonded and have a longing to be with that person. “As the victim, we secretly want to be ‘love-bombed’ again, and have a chance to make things different,” Hertlein says. “But it will not be different. For those who share children and cannot afford to go no-contact, the recommended technique is called gray rock. You give them no information about you or your life ever, and always stick to business or details as it pertains to the children. Also, get yourself into therapy. You will have to recover from the trauma of the abuse, see it for what it was, and recover from the betrayal, and restore your sense of confidence.”

Oh, I nearaly missed this! MTF, (Not reading ahead) "Had a very nice time with my bf at wedding last night" Well, yes, you would have. Sensing your mood/urge, he'd known to save his scam by quickly putting his best behaviour and Mr Nice Guy face on again. (It's to make you doubt what you've lately been feeling by trying to 'outweigh' it with a seeming, wholehearted return to normalcy again). Common Ploy. Because how are you to know "which one is the real one" yet? You haven't seen enough of the real one for yourself, yet, have you. How are you meant to remain SURE that you should dump him already? It's too late, though. If he were normal, we wouldn't be having this conversation, nor certainly to this extent. If he were normal, you could have handled any (normal-male) relationship difficulties, including any (normal) money sticking points, all on your own, as usual (normal); instead you needed to come here for feedback and help with your own, mere, not-even-live-in, "boyfriend". (ABNORMAL.) "I did talk to my bf today and told him there’s no guarantee I’d ever sell my home and that I still really enjoy my home and it’s very hard to give it up." Not that it's guaranteed to make a blind bit of difference (considering it consistently hasn't so far) WHAT you say as represents clearer-drawn Boundaries and No-Go Areas, but - GOOD! WELL DONE! It's more important that YOU know you've said it "loudly and clearly" enough this time (not that your prior times weren't, but...). So... if he starts up again and pushes, this time you'll REALLY feel how "shocking and insane" his attitude is thus what it can only mean! "I also told him when he mentions looking for a new home it makes me anxious" GOOD/DITTO! "and I didn’t appreciate him making me feel guilty a few weeks ago when I decided not to stay late" GOOD/DITTO! "to see a home." GOOD/DITTO - AND, GLAD YOU SPECIFIED HOUSE-VIEWING! (Extra-extra-EXTRA Clear As Day + Two For The Price Of One) "I expected him to say that if that’s the case there’s no point in continuing the relationship but he didn’t." No, of course not. (1) Read the articles I've just pasted - they don't end it with you (unless you totally expose them), you have to end it with THEM. And (2): Because he thinks he can still work on you, wear you down, given a bit more time - PLUS, as I say, he's having to quickly switch to doing as much "Love Re-Bombing" (or in his mean-man case, Situation Re-Normalising) as he can stand to, to beat your growing intention to Dump to the pass and make you think something like, He was just in a string of funny moooods, he's obviously through and over it nowww. (Yeah, right.) He's trying to change your mind about him, basically. So he can carry on where he left off. At extra speed. "He said he understands and then he went on to plan our beach weekend next weekend." (Ah, there we go.) And becaue you wouldn't want to SPOIL/RUIN this lovely new mood of "understanding" - that's a perfect moment to get you to COMMIT to spending the weekend (and no doubt influence) with his beach friends. "Guess I’m going next weekend but know the end is likely near. My adult daughter was furious with me for mot putting my foot down and telling I’m is not see him anymore." Tell her it's pointless. You don't have as much control over your will as you did before you met this guy. You're doing your very best and that's all you CAN do. HOWEVER...now that this also takes a tiny bit of pressure off, you never know...you might hit "F*ck it 'n Chuck 'im!" stage, suddenly. Let's watch that space. But DO not, DO not, DO not let the three of them pressure you. Insist on going in YOUR car so that you can just instantly up and leave (even secretly out the back door) if you need to. (And make sure you have cash.) And yes, the end is nigh, now, regardless of what he tries or you feel. You've seen and felt enough on your own as well as had it explained and made obvious above-table (which normally the target doesn't get). You know too much for this still-early-ish stage. He/the "relatiomship" will increasingly start to lose all of its charms. How did you feel about him last night? Any palpable sense of dislike towards him....annoyance....indignance...anything that wouldn't normally be present when in the company of a Normal-Healthy boyfriend? Cheers for the update. You're doing above-average well. Liking your caution, your tip-toe-ing out... Keep it up! :) I'm not going anywhere (unless you tell me to lol). :)

In other words (short recap): You've just clearly told and illustrated to him this: OY, YOU. YOU'RE NOT MY DAD OR MY HUSBAND, YOU'RE *JUST* MY BOYFRIEND. GET BACK IN YER BOX! :) Let's see what and when he does NEXT, then. But re the beachhouse: you don't know, you just might get Covid between now and then. You can't even give anyone notice of cancellation if that happens, can ya. ;) (Plan B, lol)

With all due respect, neither you nor I are in this relationship - for that matter, neither is the OP's daughter. You don't *know* for a fact, that there haven't been enjoyable times. I think there had to be some good times - at least somtimes, or she wouldn't have stuck around for 18 months. Was he luring her into paying his way? It sure looks like it from my seat. Does he have 7 million dollars? Nope, I don't think so. Would the OP be well-served to watch her pocketbook and be aware of manipulation on his part? Absolutely. I think "fobbing off" just reinforces the relationship, where ending it sooner would be better. But I'm not the one in the relationship. For the record, I think all couples who break up should go no-contact for a few months, at least. It gets them back better connected with their friends, hobbies, and into of the habit of solving issues/ getting comfort without his/her former significant other.

And now I'll show you what he'll have been noticing and thinking: "Had a very nice time with my bf at wedding last night." 'Phew, it's working!'... "I did talk to my bf today and told him there’s no guarantee I’d ever sell my home" ...'Sh*t, no it isn't! But-But- LAST NIGHT, she seemed etc.,etc.?!?' (Internally starts to seethe due to the fact you fooled *him*, wrong-footed *him* (i.e. seriously injured his fragile ego) with your own acting job (I say - nicely done- don't YOU have hidden talent! :)), and his ever-faithful drugs suddenly don't work ENOUGH on YOU?! What's going on - is he losing his touch...?!) To him, it simply means he still doesn't have enough control of and power over you. Not yet. And yet, you're not dumping him, either (when you could be). You're just drawing fresh but this time neon-lit boundaries (yeah-yeah, he's heard it all before). He'll see it that you're still crackable/up for being cracked, therefore, despite you clearly are going to be hard,...slow...work. Far harder than he's been used to since he perfected his craft to point of Second Nature. A CHALLENGE. (Has he got time, is the question. And if yes - how come, all of a sudden?) "and that I still really enjoy my home and it’s very hard to give it up." He hears: (At this point) I'd still rather stay in my Past, and update it to my Preent, than create a new Present (future) with you. "I also told him when he mentions looking for a new home it makes me anxious" He thinks: So it does? I thought so. Good. I can use that to make her back down. (I call it, painting a Target on yourself. Or there are variations of the well-worn saying: "Anything you say to a Narc, WILL be taken down and WILL be used at some point against you".) "and I didn’t appreciate him making me feel guilty a few weeks ago when I decided not to stay late to see a home." (BTW, you realise you're basically having to explain to a grown man how relationships and life works? Like he's only 13 and doesn't know yet? Simply because he's doing it in the first place and ignoring your hinted then direct "No"s? Think about that.... He knows. He knows perfectly well. HE JUST DUN WANNA. He wants what he wants and - sod you, who are you, "Little Woman"? You're just his obstacle, the thing standing between him and your money, etc.) Anyway, he'll have 'heard': ...the Slave, getting ideas above her station, backchatting and taking giant, punishable liberties with her Master-Owner. (Brace, please...be ready to avoid, evade, or completely ignore and not react to, let alone rise to, the bait.) New Mantra: Offer nothing, Ask for nothing. "I expected him to say that if that’s the case there’s no point in continuing the relationship but he didn’t. He said he understands and then he went on to plan our beach weekend next weekend." 'I understand' (blah-blah, yeah-yeah, shut up). SO (proving he doesn't and doesn't care anyway) - THIS COUPLES BEACH WEEKEND!... It's because he knew your confidence would have been rising (due to his not arguing) and therefore you might have too quickly added that you also wanted to hold off on the beach weekend. And he wasn't going to let that happen. So he beat you to it. But acted like it was a POSITIVE move and an extra sign that he had indeed understood, empathised, and would be treading far more gently from now on (...not). "Guess I’m going next weekend but know the end is likely near." So does he, albeit, he's not more than 50% sure (haha, he's getting a taste of his own medicine: cognitive dissonance!) so he only suspects, but isn't that worried. But - actions! - he IS worried about protecting this couples beach weekend. WHY. Who are they. What are they to him? Are they to make him look good (normal)? To help persuade you round that way as well as directly? After all, he could (were he normal) have played safe/gentle and merely sought reassurance over the European trip, right? Or the Baby Naming?...especially given those are HIS friends and family...you'd have thought THAT would be the soonest he'd wish to re-secure. Instead, it's this weekend incarceration with his fans/"friends" (whom either are just like him or don't have a clue yet what he is, despite I would bet money on the fact he will make out they're far longer, closer friends than they actually are - and that they will be so chuffed they'll respond in-kind. You'd have to make a point of asking for the date they met and how.) So the beachhouse weekend is the one he most wants to happen. ********************************************************************* PS: ""My adult daughter was furious with me for mot putting my foot down and telling I’m is not see him anymore."" LOL. Would SHE like to do it? To make it a level playing field, she would, of course, have to date him for 2 years first, having swapped lives with you. (Or perhaps she'd like to swap bodies with you? LOL) Oh, well, that was just her disappointment howling. Give her time to get over that bit and she'll see what's important: the fact that you're still tip-toe-ing out (unless he can get himself in-order enough to be OK company and know his place). And the fact that you can see the end is nigh and more out of your hands than not. You obviously DON'T expect him to be able to step up and stay stepped up. You're trying to water-down the relationship back to just part-time boyfriend-girlfriend REGARDLESS of what he does or fails to do next. You haven't sat down and got comfy again, expecting this better behaviour to last. Baby Steps. Steps are the point. It's all good. :)

Focus back on this, MTF, and re-realise that what you're doing and how you're doing it is exactly the right sort of way: ""Do not tell them we want out, and do not attempt a “break up talk”" Repeat: Do NOT." You're not! :) You're just shuffling away...shuffling away.... Here - if/when you "get Covid" - do ensure you'd coughed a lot in the preceding day or two...especially in his face - won't you. LOL

By the way - are you taking anything for your anxiety, be it medicinal or homeopathic? Anxiety can be really overwhelming and paralysing. How bad does yours tend to be out of 10 when it strikes? And how many "bad days" per week are you having?

I have something mild but this situation has had me on edge every day. Some days are worse than others. My daughter threatening today not to talk to me if I see him again doesn’t help.

"With all due respect, neither you nor I are in this relationship - for that matter, neither is the OP's daughter. You don't *know* for a fact, that there haven't been enjoyable times. I think there had to be some good times - at least somtimes, or she wouldn't have stuck around for 18 months. Was he luring her into paying his way? It sure looks like it from my seat. Does he have 7 million dollars? Nope, I don't think so. Would the OP be well-served to watch her pocketbook and be aware of manipulation on his part? Absolutely. I think "fobbing off" just reinforces the relationship, where ending it sooner would be better. But I'm not the one in the relationship. For the record, I think all couples who break up should go no-contact for a few months, at least. It gets them back better connected with their friends, hobbies, and into of the habit of solving issues/ getting comfort without his/her former significant other." ************ Ok, missus - since I'm not tired yet... 1. Oh, I've been there alright. I do know. First-hand and with helping many-many others. They're all TOO SIMILAR. And I can tell that MTF can tell. It's why she's thanked me for my *understanding*. So (ducks, LOL) I'm afraid it's just you and daughter that don't understand enough, including how mentally self-defenceless into powerless into helpless one can become (feel) - unless you're lucky enough for someone, or a shock too far from him that DOES get through, to open your eyes as early-on as possible). 2. I also know the times when he's faking (dosing) being in a great mood - or genuinely is, because he's been getting his way lately or you're both back in the post-fight Honeymoon part of the Narc Abuse Cycle (again) - tend to feel HEAVENLY. (I think I've mentioned this before on another thread?) Plus the sex seems so amazinly good (they make sure it is...all in a day's work!...you're they're JOB and this is one of their main tubes of superglue) that you take it as your "despite everything" proof that his normal self IS normal/loving and this IS a fateful joining of two souls blah-blah and he WILL stay loving and well-behaves (this time), and you should cancel your exit plans (again)... They try to turn your whole mind and sense of reality against you. Over time, however, the Good Days become less and less, the more they keep getting away with things, rather than dumped or even separated from. Before you know it, the Bad Days have taken over and mere disagreements become so blown-up, they're actually traumatic (but only for you: they pretend to be furious but then actually become furious by listening to their own nonsense and winding themselves up: before that point: "He is not abusive because he's angry - he's angry ((where a normal healthy male wouldn't be)) becaue he's abusive. An Abuser). This and more, during the stage MTF is at (attempting to test for weaknesses in then erode boundaries), are what makes it (initially) even harder to simply go "One, Two, Three - Dump!": "He utterly adores me....he utterly despises me (I've never known such seething hatred in my life!)...he utterly adores me.... And so on and so forth - Cognitive Dissonance, the original mind-paralyser or decelerator. Fogged/Paralysed PLUS in a potentially very tricky or even dangerous situation. It's not something you knee-jerk react to or rush. 'Too Good to Leave / Too Bad To Stay' is how it's known. They keep undoing then re-doing the effects of their last Good Day with you and by the same token, keep undoing and re-doing the effects of their last Bad Day. Loves me/hates me/loves me/no, hates me/no, loves me. Your mind cannot function as adequately as it needs to, under that need to constantly change your mind back and forth like that (and over something so potentially life-affecting...who the hell wants to make what they're convinced is a potentially grave mistake unless they have seen enough evidence for themself? Meanwhile, the good qualities and past benefits of the "relationship" become fewer and fewer. But so what - you're superglued now! Or, if you prefer: you're caught and paralysed then overwhelmed via Boiling Frog syndrome: ********** Boiling frog syndrome, or how your mind responds to the environment: "What is the boiling frog syndrome? For his metaphor, Olivier Clark ((writer and philospher)) chose a frog, a cold-blooded amphibian capable of gradually adjusting its body temperature to the environment. If a frog is placed in a pot with boiling water, it would jump out immediately; however, if we put it in water at ambient temperature and start heating it up gradually, the frog will start adjusting its body temperature to the new environment instead of jumping out. The frog will not realize that the water is boiling, and when it does, it will be too late for escape. How does this metaphor translate into our everyday lives? The essence of the boiling frog syndrome is that when our living ((or our once-predominantly-magical relationship)) conditions deteriorate gradually, we adapt to these conditions instead of getting rid of them, until we are no longer strong enough to escape. The boiling frog syndrome may occur in our relationships, interactions, or work-related situation. You should remember that you should say “ENOUGH” strongly when you feel that the situation you are in makes you worse and you cannot find a way to change it. Are you affected by the boiling frog syndrome? Human resistance to stress and discomfort is really limited because the situation will always finally start to hurt, just like it does to the frog. It is therefore disastrous to wait until the last moment with getting out of the situation because you will find it harder to react after a few months in the situation than at an early stage." Repeat: MTF is at that early stage and (usually missed first escape opportunity (but she has control of its pace of arrival/co-incidence with whatever). ********** I know EXACTLY the manipulated mindset the OP is currently in feels like, and EXACTLY why she should back-out with caution. There are behavioural signs that indicate whether or not a bloke could "get funny", even violent...or seriously vengeful. Let's not forget, this narcissistic not-so-petty (value of a family sized house!) criminal knows where she lives. Knows where her daughter lives. MTF may not have brought these facts to conscious mind. But that doesn't mean she doesn't know them on the level that counts here. She really doesn't know him at all. Because "Him" has all along been however much faked...probably doesn't exist (and that's ANOTHER head-f**k for your mind to have to get a handle on before it's free to get on with Cold-War-level dumping/escaping). Better safe than sorry. 3. "For the record, I think all couples who break up should go no-contact for a few months, at least. It gets them back better connected with their friends, hobbies, and into of the habit of solving issues/ getting comfort without his/her former significant other." Agree. But this is not "a couple". This is not a "relationship". This is not a "break-up". So it can't apply and would be foolish to try AND will need recovering and healing from. What can I say? You need to study up on this epidemic. That way you'd understand why "fobbing-off" IS NECESSARY. At the very least - for the peace of mind it takes TO start making friends, etc....And why this is not just a conman...a bad man with shite morals used to living hand-to-mouth but otherwise normal and who'll scarper-it quick/disappear on you, this is a ROMANTIC conman, who cons 'vulnerable' women in-private...a predator-parasite, a Narcissist and Sociopah (hot-headed, trigger-happy Psycho-equivalent, hyperactive and relentless, potentially dangerous, even violent, DEFINITELY life-and-lifestyle-marring if you let him) Sociopath. (DAMN RIGHT, better safe than sorry.) Don't worry, just relax with a Cadbury's Caramel and watch it unfold from here...start to benefit from wonderful hindsight. :)

"I have something mild but this situation has had me on edge every day. Some days are worse than others. My daughter threatening today not to talk to me if I see him again doesn’t help." Ohhh, don't waste time and energy worrying about that. That's just normal...is in the victim's script. She'll understand once she's calmed down and got her full intelligence back again. Once you've dumped-him-like-a-Ninja (LOL but true!), she'll see it and be dead impressed. :) She's just desperate and impatient to get the beeper away from you now-now-now! (Tsk. Bladdy kidz) I would say to her: Do not underestimate me just because I have the wisdom and finesse to deal with things more carefully and smoothly than you, to create the least waves. Just watch 'n learn, Sonny Jemimah! She just needs to hear your confidence in YOUR chosen method, you see. Fake if if you have to. Tell her you've also got help. (And to sit up straight and eat her Greens lol)

What meds are you on if you don't mind my asking? And what daily dosage? (Remember you're anonymous on here? That there are too many "yous" out there going through a very similar scenario as we speak?)

MTF, in the last couple months, have you considered seeing a counselor, therapist, or psychiatrist? One-on-one therapy would be so much more helpful to your situation. You can ask a doctor for a referral, and if you can't afford it, your state or county may have low-cost or sliding scale options. I was pretty lonely as a widow. I wanted -very much - to have companionship again. But I saw that many of those unattached men were unattached for their own individual reasons. Some were *too* desperate to re-couple. (Passed on those who hadn't done the work to figure out why the last relationship didn't pan out.) At least one was in his late forties and had never had a long term relationship. He hadn't been curing cancer or arranging world peace in the last 20-25 years, so I figured that one's a confirmed bachelor. (Oddly, he's the one I had to threaten to stop calling me lest I contact the police. FTR, we never even met) One was still bitter over his divorce which happened 24 years before. I can hold a grudge, myself, but that's too much for me. One was living with a female friend whose landlord wanted him out *yesterday* but he had no place to go. I think he would have tried to make *any* relationship work so he had a place to live. He actually didn't seem ill-intended, but he gave me the impression of being a perpetual child who expected others to take care of him, while he worked on his pottery and watercolors. There was one who wanted to marry me after four weeks, and tried to manipulate me by hinting I'd be well taken care of when he passed. [Un?]fortunately, he slipped up and withdrew the offer later, saying his sons wouldn't understand if he left everything to me. He was an alcoholic, too. I realized that in the somewhat limited time I had left, I didn't want to be someone's rebound relationship, or his substitute mom, or take care of a drunk. My time is too precious. I was better off alone. I'm worthy of a decent fellow. I thought, maybe I won't find one - but better that than be tied morally, legally, or emotionally, to someone not worthy of my effort. You're worthy of more than you're being offered in this situation.

I have been seeing a therapist but of course she doesn’t make decisions for me. She does provide her perspective but always adds the decisions are mine to make which I understand.

"I realized that in the somewhat limited time I had left, I didn't want to be someone's rebound relationship, or his substitute mom, or take care of a drunk. My time is too precious. I was better off alone. I'm worthy of a decent fellow. I thought, maybe I won't find one - but better that than be tied morally, legally, or emotionally, to someone not worthy of my effort. You're worthy of more than you're being offered in this situation." So true and very nicely put, I liked that. :)

"I have been seeing a therapist but of course she doesn’t make decisions for me. She does provide her perspective but always adds the decisions are mine to make which I understand." Was it she who prescribed your meds? And is she fully au-fait with the whole topic of Malignant Narcissism and Sociopathy, and prescribing on that basis? Again - what daily dosage of what, please?

Alprazolam 10 mg

My therapist suggests that I make an excuse for being in his area tomorrow for work ( which is plausible) and tell him so I don’t have to go this weekend. My therapist understands that there definitely is some good parts to our relationship, but she feels in the long run that my quality of life will be detrimentally impacted by his apparent lack of consideration for my feelings and needs. Essentially, I don’t feel that he has my back nowhere appreciates the things that I do a great deal of the time. I know recently he was trying to change by coming to my house more a little more often but that’s only one small piece of this issue. Then I have the overall issue of his pressuring me to buy a house in his area which even though I have a reprieve now for a while, he consistently reminds me of. I don’t feel confident that that will happen ever. So I feel like I’m doing I suppose a favor by breaking it off now. Of course, I feel weird doing so 2 days or so before we supposed to leave the weekend vacation at his friends but I suppose there’s never a good time. Even when I discuss florida he seems to be defensive and unwilling to work with me in making it happen. He only wants 2 months max in florida but the lease min may be up to 4 months and he’s complaining about the expense of flying back and forth.

Hi-hi, Basically Xanax. 10mg was probably okay before. But not), now, not with the extra anxiety (and over-vigilance he'll have been piling on you (even under your own awareness, quite a bit of it). Do these give you any side-effects whatsoever, and if so, which? E.g., sleepiness? Even just during the first few weeks? Just want to ensure you're tooled-up properly. "My therapist suggests that I make an excuse for being in his area tomorrow for work ( which is plausible) and tell him so I don’t have to go this weekend." That would be the "normal bloke" ideal, yes. "My therapist understands that there definitely is some good parts to our relationship, but she feels in the long run that my quality of life will be detrimentally impacted by his apparent lack of consideration for my feelings and needs." ...putting it lightly. Okay. She can see he's iffy but this still sounds like she's viewing him through the normal-healthy guy lens. So that explains the "just do it now" (like one would *normally*) advice. "Essentially, I don’t feel that he has my back nowhere appreciates the things that I do a great deal of the time." We established that already, yes. "I know recently he was trying to change by coming to my house more a little more often but that’s only one small piece of this issue." Agree. "Then I have the overall issue of his pressuring me to buy a house in his area which even though I have a reprieve now for a while, he consistently reminds me of." Yes, he's trying to wear you down - we've esstablished that, too. In HIS area, noted! Are you close to your neighbours where you live? Are they more like friends by now...very supportive? Same go for your local shopkeepers? "I don’t feel confident that that will happen ever." Nnnnope! "So I feel like I’m doing I suppose a favor by breaking it off now." A favour to who? "Of course, I feel weird doing so 2 days or so before we supposed to leave the weekend vacation at his friends but I suppose there’s never a good time." Yes there is. It's called When YOU'RE ready, not anyone else. YOU. When would YOU feel comfortable doing it? You've got to be comfortable with it, so comfortable that you're having to hold your gagging-to self back! Are you? "Even when I discuss florida he seems to be defensive and unwilling to work with me in making it happen." Because he doesn't plan to be AROUND by then; it's too far in the future, which makes it of no use and interest to him. (Google more on Future Faking) "He only wants 2 months max in florida but the lease min may be up to 4 months and he’s complaining about the expense of flying back and forth." Well, he (theoretically now) could join you but sod-off back home after 2 months, giving you some lovely peace and quiet. It's not going to happen, though. He just wants you put you off the whole idea so that he can re-focus you on buying the house you don't want with a Him you don't want at a time you don't want, courtesy of his constant (putting it mildly) badgering. Did you not ask your therapist whether she could spot any of his many Narcissistic traits in play (in case she was just being cautious and diplomatic thus avoiding the N-word)?

Oh wait, you forgot to tell me - and how severe out of 10 on your worst days? And how many bad days/separate stretches per week? PS - I meant, his many Narcissistic SOCIOPATHIC traits, specifically, so that she could consult the web for how to ensure safety when ending it with one?

Personally, whenever you say - I'll believe you and be ready. You've played this consistently like you've done it many MANY times before. You've got GREAT instincts.

She has mentioned that (narc) to me Decided that when I wake up tomorrow am if I’m up to it I’ll do the drive and get it over with. If I’m not feeling strong enough in the morning I may just text him and tell him I think we should cancel because the weather looks iffy (which is true as of now). That gives me more time on Friday to do this.

Here - show this quote to your therapist by Jennifer Smith/TrueLoveScam: ""Do not tell them we want out, and do not attempt a “break up talk”" Repeat: Do NOT." And then explain to her this: How a *Narc-Sociopath* perceives and interprets: If you make the effort to go to his place to tell him it's Over - he will hear this "Blah-blah-blah-blah" because your ACTION actually betrays you, posing as a giant contradiction: They don't UNDERSTAND people wanting to maintain, even under-fire, even when the other person has done nothing (or in this case, the opposite) to deserve it, THEIR INTEGRITY, as in, 'HE may be rude, callous, grossly inconsiderate, etc., but I am not and I'm not about to lower myself to his level'. (Well, you'd better had - or at least seriously think it through - IF you want to GUARANTEE that he won't/can't get funny with you (realising he's nothing left to lose so may as well (whatever)). Just...if by playing safe and following the agreed, expert advice to guarantee you/anyone come out virtually unscathed - why WOULDN'T you? Doing it that way (which, let's not forget, your instinctual moves have so far matched exactly!) can't hurt. Not doing it, MIGHT.) But back to his skewed thinking and perceptions... So all he (depending on the individual Spath or their mood at time of being told) 'hears/concludes', are any or all of these: 1. I want to end it but you're still so considerably under my skin (= I am still sufficiently chained to you.) And hence, still have empathy toward you, and am demonstrating it in front of you, in the form of not wanting to treat you shoddily. I am not over you. 2. I am still a slave to my politeness (= (his idea of) "weak"). 3. Since I am still chained - you are safe to act like a gentlman who GRACEFULLY ACCEPTS my 'resignation'. One, it might confuse me, give me pause to DOUBT my decision ("oh, maybe he IS a nice guy just having a bad 2 years after all!?"). And, two, you can feel pretty sure, that once you want or need to, you'll be able to Hoover me back into the "relationship", no problem. You therefore will have the time and freedom to be able to get on with working on other of your on-the-side targets and - (a) should one prove a far "better" (easier) target than me (agrees to go 'halves' on a house) - immediately switch your attention and efforts to her and only return to Hoover me if that con should get scuppered, (b) if she yields no fruit, come a lot quicker back to Hoover me. I could go on. But basically - he will hear whatever flatters his ego in terms of how powerful he is and how helpless YOU (and all 'mere' women) are in the face of him. You may not give a stuff. You may just simple BE doing it for your own moral satisfaction. But it's what HE'LL (want/choose to) conclude that matters. Can you appreciate this? It's just cleverer and safer to sidle away whilst becoming boring and impossible to control/coerce (in a way they don't know how to deal with/get around), until HE decides to dump YOU. Their egos can handle being the Rejecter. BUT NOT THE REJECTEE (sends em crazy, usually in the woman's direction). All types of Malignant Narcs see it that, if you've so much as had ONE DATE with them - you are now theirs. Their possession. To do with you whatever they please. For life. (Yes - "Cuckoo!" indeed...that's WHY they're labelled Emotionally Dangerous at least.) BUT, like I said. You might be unready this week,...even next, then suddenly without warning, get a big portion of confidence back and think - NOW! And also think - pff...I owe him NOTHING...he doesn't DESERVE being told to his face - I'm just going to phone or maybe text...or maybe nothing, maybe try Zero Contact? I'm not really worried though. For starters, you're obviously FAR cleverer and more intelligent than him (for starters, as opposed to his, your mind's healthy and flexible). I just don't want you to end up kicking yourself however far into the future for 'having let him' misconstrue your simple Ladylikeness, whereby, 'now' he won't get off your back and stop phoning and trying to work on you. By then, you've had the time to realise and appreciate just how unpredictable (sign of insanity) he is, meaning, what today might sound like a potential future irritant will actually be alarming and disturbing...just hearing his voice again. That's why I always played safe BUT trusted my instincts if they disagreed at any point of Operation Get Rid. Basically, I had a plan but was open to making adjustments/enhancements as I went whenever the unfolding production showed signs that it was necessary or canny. (Of course, a dart-gun would have been a lot quicker.) (I wish!)

"She has mentioned that (narc) to me " Thank god! I still don't understand why she's rushing you in that case, though? I'll hold off replying to the rest because, reading my above explanation might change your intended plan some? If not - is there any friend could go with you and wait in your car?...Moral support? You'd be surprised what a huge difference it'll make.

PS: "and he’s complaining about the expense of flying back and forth." Who - Mr Multi-Millionnaire? I'm rich! - I'm skint! - I'm rich - Now I'm skint again!.... See how their "facts and truths" can turn 180 degrees on a sixpence if, the very next moment they need to flip it to "prove" their (fake) point? See how mad he is? Have you ever HAD someone telling you one day they despise X but the next day or week are claiming to ADORE it? (FYI If you remind any Malignants of their prior oh-so-adamant, totally-opposite opinion, they simply deny it: "I did NOT?! (say that)". It's called, Denying that the sky is Blue.)

...And again, if he IS wealthy - at the very least, here he is, yet again demonstrating Gross Miserliness. What he is ALSO doing (two Tries for the price of one) is this: I can't or refuse to afford it. Therefore, what with you obviously so super-keen for me to go with you - I reckon if I claim that, you'll offer to compromise BY PAYING MY AIR FARES (and god knows what else once you get there). Or agree to "loan" him the money (which he'll never get around to paying back).

Anyway, my advice is you DO cancel this beachhouse weekend BUT NOT by Ending It with him - UNLESS YOU'RE READY. If not - just by making up some excuse why you can't go. FYI, another possibility and suspicion of mine (because - house - he's actually a high-value scammer): He NEEDS you at his (I'm betting - new) "best friends" beachhouse...two cosy couples together...a NORMAL and nice guy like his normal and nice girlfriend (she's so nice - she wouldn't date anyone iffy)...to convince THEM he's normal and trustworthy because he's priming THEM to be his next scam victims too. He might switch to scamming them - using you as a tool - then (if it works) just dump you or disappear on you. Aka trick you into HELPING him to lure and capture your own replacement. Look how desperate he's shown he is re. securing your attendance at THIS function, exclusively. Seeing it?

If that's what's going on, his reaction to you telling him you can't go is likely to panic and aggravate him and tip him instantly into cold hostility or hot-headed aggression. I really wish you'd just "come down with" something. What about stomach flu ("uuuuugh, both ends....so weeeeak....uuugh....noooo, don't come roound....really-really sorryyyyy...call you when I'm better, uuugh..." said or voice-messaged or just texted). Surely that's the easiest, simplest, quickest, safest, most time-buying AND most completely and utterly everyday-believable?

(It - lying and acting, 'shamelessly' like that - is known as Out-Narc-ing The Narc (where in a normal relationship it's, Taste Of Own Medicine). Because it's what they've all along, all the time, been doing to you. And they NEVER see it coming (who - YOU, Mrs Goody TWO-SHOES?! - never!).

Here you go... (albeit, bear in mind this is about outdoing them continuously, I'm only recommending the above one-off for you:) https://luckyottershaven.com/tag/out-narcing-the-narc/ Should you ever try to out-narc your narc? DISCLAIMER: I don’t recommend trying to out-narc a narc unless you feel up to playing such wretched games, or if there’s no other choice. If you can’t go No Contact right away, a technique known as grey rocking is better and won’t violate your conscience or morals . But grey rocking works best with people you aren’t that intimate with. In a very intimate relationship, such as a marriage, out-narcing the narc could prove more effective. Always keep in mind you are not as skilled a player as the narcissist in your life. You’ll know if it isn’t working. Then STOP. Out-narcing my narc. After years of codependency to my MN sociopath ex, always skulking around like a frightened church mouse and not daring to defy him (but inwardly seething the whole while)– and about a year before I finally got a restraining order and finally made him leave–I started to get mean. In other words, I had learned his games (hey, I had the best teacher!) and decided to use them against him. I think when our rage rises to a certain level, or has been building up over a long time, there’s a pressure cooker effect, and you either explode–or if you can keep a measure of control, you can mirror the narcissist in the most negative way possible — by reflecting back to them the nasty and evil things they have been doing to you. In other words, you can “out-narc” the narc. It can be hard for abuse victims to out-narc the narc, because we don’t have as many allies (they’ve all been turned against us), and anyway, we don’t recruit flying monkeys to make sure our commands are carried out. We also have a stronger conscience and some empathy, maybe a lot of empathy. If we’re really empathic, we might be much more prone to try to “rescue” the narcissist from themselves rather than give them “tough love”–forcing them to taste their own nasty medicine. poison. If we have compassion and especially if we still love the narcissist, we don’t want to see them suffer at our hands. If you don’t feel comfortable doing this or it goes against your morals then you shouldn’t. Grey rocking is a nicer alternative. But if you get mad enough, the anger might override your compassion temporarily. It did for me, for about a year, until he as served the restraining order. Mostly I gaslighted him (told him coldly he was imagining things when he accused me of something I didn’t do, etc.), verbally abused (insulted him), using what I knew were his buttons (things he was sensitive about) against him, and most of all, I gave him the silent treatment. (If you’re not all that skilled in narc tactics, the silent treatment is one of the easiest to use). I don’t recommend using insults–they’re not very effective (they will be turned against you) and likely will enrage the narc. So try not to use them, unless they’re very subtle or you have the ability to be sweetly sarcastic. Then, if he picks up on it, you can tell him, “oh, you must have been imagining things!” I hated to be this way to anyone–it just isn’t me–but my survival at the end depended on it. The narc had zero sense of boundaries, and my seething rage and fear with no way to vent it was destroying me. Out-narcing him for a short time made me feel stronger and readied me to do the (at he time) unthinkable: kick him the hell out. While rage shouldn’t become a permanent place to live (in fact, it’s downright dangerous to you if you can never move past it), righteous anger when you’re going no contact is perfectly justified. My narc-mirroring definitely turned my ex a lot colder toward me, but it also made him stop trying to suck the lifeblood out of me and stomp all over my boundaries 24/7. He learned, and rather quickly, that I wasn’t having it anymore, and I also think he recognized himself in the way I treated him. It didn’t make him remorseful or ashamed and it didn’t bring self-awareness either, but it made him STFU and leave me alone until I had the courage to file a restraining order on his sorry ass. Finally... If you do decide to a out-narc your narc, don’t do it for an extended length of time because after too long, it will take a toll on your spiritual and emotional integrity. It should only be used for the short term, when you simply can no longer tolerate the N’s behavior, but going No Contact isn’t possible yet (but will be–start saving money now if you have no place to go). Further reading: Grey Rocking: If You Can’t Go No Contact"

So it turns out I woke up today feeling sick (and still do). I went to doctor and took Covid test and will have results tomorrow. Texted bf and told him and he didn’t call just texted to tell me he was going to baseball game tonight with friends and I should text and tell him how I feel. Isn’t that nice😞 Good thing I didn’t go there this afternoon. I’ll see how I feel tomorrow. If I’m a lot better I’ll decide what to do. Of course I need the Covid results either way which won’t be until tomorrow. He had texted me earlier today after I texted just good morning and asked if he could come at noon tomorrow instead of after dinner. When I didn’t text back after 3 hours he sent the following text: Hello?!?!, That’s when I replied that I was out doctor getting the Covid text. I feel like I have a slight fever, headache, neck ache, sore throat and dealing with him is making it worse!!

1. You might actually have Covid??? That's a bit bloody Spooky, isn't it - putting it mildly?! I mean, forgive me for saying so when you're probably in no mood for seeing the positive, spiritual side, but - what were the bloody chances, if you HAVE got it?! Right when you needed it! Answer: that would be TOO MUCH of a coincidence. FAR too much. (I mean, it's not as if you're the type who's so incredibly wide open to the power of suggestion, is it. And even THOUGH the stress will have lowered your immuunity - what about the timing?!) Therefore, NOT a coincidence. A Schpookayyyy! (as I call them). This case, as if someone/thing up there is listening and putting their hand in. (Any theories who?) Woah.... Please be sure to let me know what the result is? (PS - tomorrow? Well, that's an improvement.) Well, anyway, what a stroke of luck that you even feel ill enough that you MIGHT have it! I'm sorry your stroke of luck feels like crap, though. (Are you often this jammy?) PS: VERY good job you didn't go there, yes. 2. He didn't call. Just a piddly, too-casual-sounding text. Wow. (Can I have his number so I can dump him FOR you, massive-please? No honestly - no trouble at all, it'd be my PLEASURE!) 3. You should text HIM? (Nooo, fella. YOU should. In fact, you should have CALLED!) But he's not a fella, he's a thug of an a-hole toddler (or worse, Chucky) who's only in-love with the thought of your wealth and assets, so we obviously have to let him off :p. But that's fine because we're not supposed to be letting on so... Did you text him back later? Just to 'preserve your game'? Or were you 'far too poorly/asleep' by then? ;) (Here - hahaha! - forgive me, but...I've just had a very amusing thought: You could text him anon and say, "If you're receiving this it means I've died so I won't be able to see you any more. I'm sure you'll understand." Haaah...fun fantasies, aren't they great? :D) Well, anyway. So you've seen it for yourself, now, their extreme revulsion at the thought of TAKING CARE of someone "needy and weak". (They don't take CARE of the weak and needy, they BULLY the weak and needy, geddit right?) Well handled. Thank (if you HAVE got Covid) your guardian angel from me? 4. Again, you take as long as you please to decide. If you have Covid - or even just some other nasty virus/flu bug - you'll have all the time you need. Even if you don't - results get delayed, doncha know. PLUS, you won't be able to see him duringtime so you'll be able to detach a lot more, maybe even the rest of the way, given the speed you've been going at? 5. So before the Covid test was even mentioned, he wanted to come round a lot earlier tomorrow (today now) than evening? Is that because he got wind of this sudden "ballgame"? (Of course, it might not be a baseball game and the "friend" not male. Or it's all BS and he wasn't going anywhere and just wanted to ADD to your strain with cause to wonder.) 6. "Hello?!?!" ONE question-mark would have sufficed, wouldn't it? And note it's not - Hello, are you okay??? It comes across as ANSWER ME! "That’s when I replied that I was out doctor getting the Covid text." For future ref: make the bloke wait another hour, make his demand for your attention NOT WORK. (If it works, you can be trained into jumping to attention the minute he texts, which is usually when he starts to make YOU wait...longer and longer (you slave, not him, he master)). Just FYFI. "I feel like I have a slight fever, headache, neck ache, sore throat and dealing with him is making it worse!!" You don't have to deal with him for a good few days or week or WEEKS. You definitely have something. And even if you didn't, you could claim you did. You have ALL the power here. It's all yours. But he took it. Now you've got it back. DO AS YOU DAMN WELL PLEASE! S Stay in bed on your laptop, read a good book, watch telly.... Think of it as a reprieve and a holiday. That's what this sign - via the nature of Fate/whomever's (UNBELIEVABLY) helpful dabbling - is telling you to do, right? PS: Get a sunlamp in...spoil yourself :)

PS: Make him wait. Make him have to do ALL the initiating and chasing. (That's normally what you expect when you're the one who's ill anyway, isn't it.) I mean, it's too obvious, now, that he doesn't give a stuff bar for your money/other convenient perks, but, let's just give him more rope and see what he FAILS to do with THAT, too....how hard he hangs himself.

"Thank (if you HAVE got Covid) your guardian angel from me?" THAT came out wrong?! I meant - regardless of what bug or for how long - just for giving you a genuine excuse to cling to. :) You'll have come across perfectly believable because of it. :) Won't stop him being suspicious, but, that's just daily life for them so who cares.

Was at a wedding with 200 ppl last Saturday night so figure I was exposed in that situation.

TWO HUNDRED? Oh, well. You probably do have Covid (Omicrom) then. (Been there, done that. Twice - Spring 2021 AND 22, I suspect.) (How will you get given the results? Via email?) DEFINITELY get a phone appointment with your doctor - explain the situation you're caught in (they've heard it all before - trust me! - DAILY!) and get your meds or doseage temporarily upped - but NOT if drowsyness features. Then you'll need to switch type and brand. Note: "Citalopram"/Celexa has gone from 'one of the' to THE most globally popular of its type, (SSRI) PARTICULARLY for blitzing Anxiety (but deperession too) with FAR less potential side-effects. I've been on it, and a lot of other people I know, both here and in UK are on it. No drowsiness reported whatsoever, and it kicks in as quickly as a mere 3 days (and keeps laying gently on from there). But latest research says you can take it just on bad days, like an ibuprofen, and it still works (which is handy for when you feel mostly back to normal but still susceptible to being dragged back by any negative or destablizing event crashing-in). Ask your doctor what s/he thinks. ********** So let's recap again because I'm STILL grinning and going WOAH.....You DO take him to 'your' wedding bash (which a lot of people might have (normal lens) thought unnecessary, inappropriate, maybe even foolish)... And, having DONE so - and in the FACE of this 'judgement' (haha, you're not stubborn, are ya) - turns out to have earned you a (perversely but-for-however-long-you-like USEFUL), actually, in all ways you can think of....this PERFECT excuse to keep him the Eff away from you. Until YOU say so (when and because you're clearer). It couldn't have turned out more of a perfect gift of a Rescue if you or I'd had planned it ourselves! :) Incredible. Not that I haven't seen this kind of thing before but - that's a downright PALPABLE one, that is!

...He REALLY under-estimated you, didn't he.

I’m waiting for results today or early tomorrow. He did call me this morning after I text him and told him I’m still not feeling well and I was extremely congested so he has no reason to doubt me. Either way I’m trying to recover and I’m hoping that I’ll feel better later in the weekend but I am grateful in the way that this happened so I don’t have to go this weekend! As always thanks for your insight

I’m waiting for results today or early tomorrow. He did call me this morning after I text him and told him I’m still not feeling well and I was extremely congested so he has no reason to doubt me. Either way I’m trying to recover and I’m hoping that I’ll feel better later in the weekend but I am grateful in the way that this happened so I don’t have to go this weekend! As always thanks for your insight

...ORRR it's just that - you're a LOT cleverer than even I gave you credit for.... and are USED to covering EVERY possible angle, no matter HOW remotely possible an outcome it could become.... (Are you in insurance? :D) Heh-heh-heh. That's the sort of secret 'flourish' I'd have thought to have done, as well. In fact, I HAVE - many a time (tell you when this is all over). But if I'm right - that'd mean, he SUPER-under-estimated you! What was he - your 'bit of rough'? :D (If you don't 'get' this hinted message, don't worry for now. If you DO - just gimmie a Smiley....mum's the word.) Anyway, hope you're not feeling too poorly?

Crossover! - wait up...

"I’m waiting for results today or early tomorrow." Probably not that quickly, let's be honest, what with the delays, still, due to post-Brexit + Covid work outputs and supply problems. "He did call me this morning after I text him and told him I’m still not feeling well" Wrong. He did not contact you. He responded to YOUR contact. Specifically, because you SAID something that was important to him. (Who'd have KNOW whether or when he'd have contacted you off his own bat, otherwise?) He only took action with a phonecall because, as you recognise - Mr Paranoid, Mr Am I Losing Control Over Her?, wanted PROOF while he could get it safely under cover of faked *being concerned*, that you were not lying. AND so he'd be able to gauge how long he had to work on other targets, probably). It's not a problem that you contacted him (it's good you're the one in the driver's seat). It's the way you're unwittingly telling yourself (and your inner self) how it happened. It kids you that he cares, "proven" by the fact he MADE CONTACT (thus deserves a greater benefit-of-the-doubt when he so doesn't). So It's important we keep your brain straight, stuck like glue to reality. You need to think like a Pedant for a while. "and I was extremely congested so he has no reason to doubt me." Hurrah! He is still The (Justiably) Counter-Conned, "stuck nicely on icely". :) (PS: cotton-wool up only one nostril works.) "Either way I’m trying to recover and I’m hoping that I’ll feel better later in the weekend but I am grateful in the way that this happened so I don’t have to go this weekend! As always thanks for your insight" You probably WON'T feel bettr by the weekend, sorry to say. Well, not bodily anyway. ;) But why are you hoping you'll be better later (when it's too late to go breach-housing) in the weekend? As always - you're MORE than welcome. Ditching at 2 years - the Normal-average End Of Honeymoon (NOT, actually!) - is still far harder than it would or should be, normally (including in which ways) - on your heart AND your brain - than with a normal-healthy bloke. That's precisely why the "Knowing, Nasty" types of narcs bide their "happy-version Trauma-Bond-making aka Honeymoon" time for it! You're EXPECTING things to ease off a bit, which provides cover for showing-flashing their true colours. And you've hit Disarmed point (or so they believe).

Covid test negative. He called this morning and invited himself over “just to be with me”. I told him I’m a little better but still have a bad cold and don’t want to get him sick. He said he’ll be ok and wanted to come early this afternoon. Best i could do is to have him come later this afternoon before the rush hour. Amazingly he said ok but if the traffic starts building he may leave a little sooner. Amazingly he asked if I need anything! That’s a first but I said no thanks. Guess I’ll have to build my strength and strategy asap!

He showed up with flowers! That’s a first.

He showed up with flowers! That’s a first.

But MTF, why did you have to tell him your test came back negative? Why couldn't you have pretended it was positive? And why did you then add to that mistake by telling him you were a little better? If you hadn't done either of those things, there'd be no NEED to have to, quote, build your strength and strategy asap. As for the flowers: Bit late now, eh. Why couldn't have have been doing that these last two years? I mean, clearly he's proving he could have been - right? Answer: "tick-tock-tick-tock" . stakes are higher now...needs you 'back on board', under his influence and subject to his nagging (brainwashing - wearing down your resistance) asap. Don't fall for it. By which I mean, don't be impressed. It is too easy to be THRILLED at what only SEEMS like a big gesture becaus - words of endearment and gifts/generosity/gestures of fondness-wise, he's been increasingly getting you used to the TINIEST CRUMBS. You don't want mere flowers. You wanted him to acknowledge and apologise for his recent "going on and on (AND ON)" at you....you want him to have even the modicum of respect towards you it takes to hear all your Nos as NO. To give a sh*t how you think, feel, want, need, basically. But he's not acknowledging, is he. If he did that - HE'D HAVE TO STOP chipping away at your resolve and energy. You don't SOUND as if you've fallen for the flowers, but - can you see how confusing it, how mixed-internal-self-messaging it is?: "You have the opening you need for coming to see (check on my on-the-side 'temperature') me now" / Damn, Soulmate, how can I up my game to stop him next time?" You daftie. But, to be fair - that's the trouble with being poorly. Brain energy is being hogged your immune system. Plus we have the non-credible-yet-real Sociopathic Hypnotic Effect (which works even just over the phone - hence another reason why he abandoned text to phone). Plus they know if they pounce on you when you're low/ill/down, you're NOT going to have the energy to be stubborn and stand your ground, NOR for skepticism and suspicion... or just Resisting full-stop... Never mind, it's all a learning curve. Or was that what you were already saying with, "Guess I’ll have to build my strength and strategy asap!". Your way of saying, 'AWWW, BUM, what did I do THAT for!'? :D Yeah, well, spilt milk... What are your own ideas for an improvement of strategy? Any? Or are you still that bit too 'feek and weeble' with this cold virus?

Not backing down!

He doesn't want to give you space. That way lies you sufficiently getting-over him. He'll be making excuses to keep texting...ringing....popping in (and no doubt doing drive-bys at night to check you're not two-timing him (because that's what he does so (Projection) you could too)...all of that, ALL OF A KINDLY SUDDEN. They don't DO things for you. They do things for them...to help them achieve what it is they're after (usually in a hurry). As this FIRST EVER bunch of piddly flowers after two, long, beeping years of zero, SHOWS. Seeing it? I feel a counter-plan far too intelligent for him coming on.... :) I'll keep you posted...

"Not backing down!" That's my gal! :) So far, this has been proving to be quite a showcase thread. A How To manual - AND well of understanding towards disempowering them in your head - for so many other past victims but present and future (thanks howevermuch to this thread and you) *survivors*. :) You'd be surprised how many men and women in your position DO fall for it. But you're not them, are you, so - my bad! Might be an idea to try to check with me on here (if you get enough notice of any more threats to visit or whatever)? Say you will and I'll make a special effort to log-on and beck, more than once every day without fail. RSvP.

Saying that...if you were to hold out for long enough, maybe he'd progress to buying you a diamond necklace. Well, alright, one of those elasticated "Candy Necklaces", anyway - let's be realistic. (snigger-snigger-snort)

Plan 1 (of I'm sure, many) (Will no doubt include silly plans, but - brainstorming is brainstorming, dwahling...it all helps to get the creative juices going) Next visit, sneeze or cough full in his face. Be shocked, embarrassed and apologise over and over and over AND OVER AND OVER (let's see how he likes being whacked back-and-forth around the head, shall we? Let's irritate the uck out of him. (Which would just leave 'y') (...why, what did you think was the missing letter?) (mwa-ha)

Do you know WHY you let him round, yet? Did he put you on the spot where you had too little time to think? Or were you just too floppy to face having to say NO ten times on the trot? What was it?

(How the 'eck did 'log-on and check' turn into 'log-on and beck'???)

"Well, alright, one of those elasticated "Candy Necklaces", anyway - let's be realistic. (snigger-snigger-snort)" Or a dog-collar. :p

Bringing flowers for the first time ever? "Danger, Will Robinson!"

Last thanksgiving he brought flowers because I asked him. Other than that this is the first time and I’ve been sick plenty of times and he never brought me anything including flowers. And I made it a point to say how much I love flowers when we shopped at the grocery store from time to time. His brother visited him last week for a few days and I’m wondering if he had any influence since that brother treats his wife very well. I’m sure after our talk last Sunday he must be a bit nervous in terms of my next move. I’m trying hard to stay on track but I have to rethink timing. Today I came up with idea of going to a nearby town where walking is easy (I’m still not 100 percent but I’m probably good enough) that will take most of today. Trying to get to tomorrow when I hope to be well enough to finish my talk.

"Bringing flowers for the first time ever? "Danger, Will Robinson!"" Exlain what you're thinking, please, m'Colleague?

"Last thanksgiving he brought flowers because I asked him. Other than that this is the first time and I’ve been sick plenty of times and he never brought me anything including flowers. And I made it a point to say how much I love flowers when we shopped at the grocery store from time to time. Then, last Thanksgiving, he FETCHED flowers for you. He's only gifted you a bunch, ONCE. (Why NOW) Also, you weren't to know he wasn't a normal bloke who'd respond the right way to your pointed hints. Because of what he is and is up to - those hints got warped into you painting a giant target on your back, showing him where it would/will hurt. (N-Spaths neglect as well as bully; they're like a FREESTYLE Narc. Just whatever works at any given time.) "His brother visited him last week for a few days and I’m wondering if he had any influence since that brother treats his wife very well." Oh, I seriously doubt that. Think about it: if all the men (and women) (and waiter) around that restaurant table couldn't 'persuade' him to follow the men's lead (and act like one) - and ditto in front of your D and SIL & co. - then I doubt one brother could. Also, evidence suggests he's the NICE brother (Spath version of "weak and manipulable"), and that'll mean he'll have been dominated by your FBF (fake bf) and maybe still is (or even just a critical residue). "I’m sure after our talk last Sunday he must be a bit nervous in terms of my next move." As above - yes. NONE of what's happened was in his 'Narc or conman script', was it. Totally Left-field. And nor, I'm sure, did he expect you yourself to be such a deceptively tough target. The situation was, it was thought that you had Covid. (It can still kill where one is already fragile, even unawares, or give you Long Covid.) But that's not what his flowers were about, anyway. They're just an acting prop. To (i) butter you up get you back in the game (his), having sensed your ambiguity (or over-defensively/experientially read it like that); (ii) to get a better, in-person temperature reading re whether you're still into him; and (iii) to know how much time he's got to continue seeking Ann Other (back-up replacement or conqubine). A piddly bunch of flowers was all this already cash-poor conman could afford (or be arsed to), though. And what was wrong with just BRINGING stuff without mentioning it - soothing treats and such, as a touchingly thoughtful surprise, instead of asking. He's all practical, isn't he. Where IS the love? I don't see any yet, what with his actions being so low-effort cheap, non-existent or downright unacceptable? Me, i suspect he knows you well enough by now to guess you'd say No to that offer (so was safe to risk spending on more than those flowers). Or that that's why he asked: so that he'd only be FETCHING them. I suspect you're really low-maintenance. Am I right? ...Like he would have told quite early on that you wouldn't cost him much, as opposed to him costing you much. In other words, with his behaving like he plans on your present wealth becoming his, whether by snatching-and-running or steadily appropriating it by tantamountedly becoming your 'respectable husband' - he won't want to be spending what he already sees as "his" money, on YOU. Lets all tell him to shove his crumb, fake at that. "I’m trying hard to stay on track but I have to rethink timing. Today I came up with idea of going to a nearby town where walking is easy (I’m still not 100 percent but I’m probably good enough) that will take most of today. Trying to get to tomorrow when I hope to be well enough to finish my talk." Finish your talk? You mean, build to actually outright telling him it's over? I hope not but if so - don't whatever you do have it in your house or his flat, or any secluded spot. Public place, e.g. cafe, meet there in separate cars. (Again, probably not, but you never can tell with these ones.)

Apologies for the cultural reference. There was a show in the 60s, "Lost In Space." The family had a robot, and the youngest child was often wandering off away from the home space ship and getting into unsafe situations. The robot would, in most episodes, have an opportunity to wave his robot arms and chant, "Danger, Will Robinson!"

PS: This update tell me his his aim indeed has to be the appropriating "husband" one (the long-term con for as long as it takes for you to wake up to it, to how much poorer you are due to him, to how less healthy and chirpy etc. you are, and end it...that's how it usually goes).

Haha, no, OM, I meant, WHAT SPECIFICALLY are you waving your "danger-danger!" arms at?

He sees a change and he's trying a new tactic.

I think he’s concerned. Acting way more attentive and caring” but still managed to ask about seeing new homes!

He asked me if I wanted to drive to see new homes halfway between our homes! I can’t believe this! Doesn’t listen and this may be enough to just say I’ve had enough!

Was ready to call it quits but have a bad cold and just didn’t have the energy in me so he just left saying it looked like I want to be alone. That’s for sure! But now I still have the breakup talk ahead of me. Disappointed in myself but I didn’t have the energy and I’m still in under the weather. Feel like I can sleep for 2 days straight.

Before he left yesterday he said I guess we can look at the houses next weekend instead. Is it me or is this guy crazy and doesn’t want to listen to what I’ve told him on numerous occasions?

"He sees a change and he's trying a new tactic." Correctamundo, OM! (Thlup!) :) And they switch back and forth between them (repeat-repeat-repeat), in a way that can (to the victim) be almost seamless. *************************************************** "I think he’s concerned. Acting way more attentive and caring” but still managed to ask about seeing new homes!" (Thlup!) for you, too, then. :) Yeah, funny, that...still managed to bang on about GETTING YOU UNDER HIS THUMB BEHIND CLOSED DOORS. You must feel like this by now! : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DE3r_CgScms And notice at how he doesn't care that it must be making him look utterly crazy to you by now! Which it is: "He asked me if I wanted to drive to see new homes halfway between our homes! I can’t believe this! Doesn’t listen and this may be enough to just say I’ve had enough!" Which is why ending it slowly and cautiously comes naturally with this side-bonus, called, giving them enough rope to hang themselves. You then see they ARE a Spath because - No shame (for acting 'like' a madman to you), no care, conscientiousness, remorse...doesn't see anything wrong with badgering his 'girlfriend' AND badgering a very poorly woman. See? Straight malig. narcs wouldn't risk letting you too easily see under the mask like that (you might tell everyone...Spathpants here doesn't care if you tell everyone AS LONG AS HE'S ALREADY SKIPPED TOWN WHEN YOU DO or been subtly, constantly smear-campaigning to your friends etc so they won't believe "poor, mad you" (which it doesn't sound like he's had the means to do, not least because none of them like him and he hasn't been planning to stick around that long...I repeat: that house purchase-share is what he's gunning for...and then he won't need to skiddaddle because he'll waste no time in becoming your keeper-jailer). So, thanks to having waited thus seen this, how totally insane he's being by STILL insisting on going on and on, even when you're in your sickbed - chucking him now will be a DODDLE (...unless you're secretly a childless, psychiatric nurse who loves a challenge? :D). And there is now zero rush. :) "Was ready to call it quits but have a bad cold and just didn’t have the energy in me so he just left saying it looked like I want to be alone. That’s for sure! But now I still have the breakup talk ahead of me. Disappointed in myself but I didn’t have the energy and I’m still in under the weather. Feel like I can sleep for 2 days straight." Oh, I see, it wasn't that HE was bored and wanted to leave - no, it was (all together now) YOUR fault, according to him. That's perfectly ok. Refer to above zero rush - PLUS, like I said, you need to be strong (so you can enjoy it - LOL, narc sadism joke). There's really no rush. It's called: Can I come round / Uhhhhhhh....nooo.....uuuuh...just been sick... I mean, what's gonna happen if you half or full-lie to a lunatic, especially one who can't tell truth from lie any more? Probably this: Duuh, okayyy. ...Unless what you're saying is, you're so gagging to dump this desperate door-to-door salesman, now, that this delay is seroiusly annoying you? Well...still zero point in pressuring yourself just because you don't have a magic wand to wave to transform yourself back to full health. (Or becaue you do but misplaced it??) Go ahead and sleep 2 days straight. :) I saved the best for last: "(Before he left yesterday he said I guess we can look at the houses next weekend instead.) Is it me or is this guy crazy and doesn’t want to listen to what I’ve told him on numerous occasions?" Well, let me put it this way: TOLDJYAS! (Thank-you fans) (LOL, sorry, I'm in a silly mood tonight) Anyway, you can just please and enjoy yourself now...watch telly, nap, eat toast in bed, all that. (Nice work if you can get it?)

Classily done, MTF (and your friend, Fate, for the virus), classily done... :)

Think I’ve had it. He wanted to see me tonight and make it an extended weekend but I told him I wasn’t up to it and had work and done things to do so he’s coming tomorrow. I’ve decided to break it off tomorrow. Long story but we shared a lease which ends June 24 and he extended it on his own and I will be removed as of June 25. The bill for June came due today and it includes the entire month plus the parking space which as you know he used when I visited a few weeks ago. I held off paying early today to see what he’d do and sure enough around 3 pm he texts me “Do you plan to pay the rent this month or should I pay it?” I said I’d pay it and then waited to see if he said actually I’ll pay it because you’re not here much anymore and it includes the last week of June and that lease is only under my name etc. nope!!! As I paid it online about an hour later I said to myself “I’m done”! This guy is pathetic!

Sorry I'm late! "Think I’ve had it. He wanted to see me tonight and make it an extended weekend but I told him I wasn’t up to it and had work and done things to do so he’s coming tomorrow." Still being pushy and pressuring, then. Yeah - don't blame you. M-Narcs can nag for England. Certainly when they've nothing else at their disposal (no other tricks up their sleeve). Like I said, Desperate is as Desperate does....however, it's all about DEGREES and this guy's is sky-high. You end up wanting to scream in their face - "What's WRONG with you - how many TIMES?!" "I’ve decided to break it off tomorrow. Long story but we shared a lease which ends June 24 and he extended it on his own and I will be removed as of June 25. The bill for June came due today and it includes the entire month plus the parking space which as you know he used when I visited a few weeks ago. I held off paying early today to see what he’d do and sure enough around 3 pm he texts me “Do you plan to pay the rent this month or should I pay it?” I said I’d pay it and then waited to see if he said actually I’ll pay it because you’re not here much anymore and it includes the last week of June and that lease is only under my name etc. nope!!! As I paid it online about an hour later I said to myself “I’m done”! This guy is pathetic!" Hey, so did you do it?? How, and how did it go?

PS: "I held off paying early today to see what he’d do and sure enough around 3 pm he texts me “Do you plan to pay the rent this month or should I pay it?” I said I’d pay it and then waited to see if he said actually I’ll pay it because you’re not here much anymore and it includes the last week of June and that lease is only under my name etc. nope!!! As I paid it online about an hour later I said to myself “I’m done”! This guy is pathetic!" Again, he knows you're - sorry - knows YOU are 'walking integrity and conscientious'. Again - 'safe' offer (by a known Risk Taker). But maybe he was that desperate, he knew a show of 'generosity' (if paying you what he owes you can be called that?). Me, I suspect he rang at 3 to check because he doesn't intend to pay his half this month. Can't. And half (yours) is better than nothing for holding-off and buying time with the leasing agent. Also it was a temperature test. If you'd said No, he'd have had his own suspicions confirmed (that you were definitely about to chuck him and bang would go his scheme.) Does that heavy package of desperation fit, in your opinion? And another thing: Who, when told you're too poorly for company on a Friday would then say, Ok then - Saturday! You see? (Course.) DESPERATE. Really desperate. Not for love, for means to a big payout, urgently.

PS: That being prepared to behave in front of you like a lunatic goldfish (11 second memory) comes under N-Spath: "NO SHAME" In fact, everything you've reported him having done all along, comes under that if you think about it.

Very odd encounter. I told him I didn’t see myself ever buying a home with him or moving and also I won’t marry again. After several hours of back and forth he told me how much he loved me and wants “to try to make this work”. To tell you the truth I was so worn out I didn’t actually break it off. He did mention he was so looking forward to our trip so that may have been the reason for his behavior but as I’ve said before I still haven’t paid my half and don’t intend to do so. I’ll need to rest up for the next encounter and decide whether to shut him down altogether.

Heya, " I still haven’t paid my half and don’t intend to do so. I’ll need to rest up for the next encounter and decide whether to shut him down altogether." Perfect! As perfect as it needs to be at this point. I know you get it, but I'm going to confirm your sensible thinking and break it down for you. (Soz for any repetitions but I've been having to do this in bits, amid constant interruptions today.) ______________________ First thing: Chillax. If you pressure yourself over ending it now-now-now, you're entering into (or buying into would be more accurate) the abuse phase where - BECAUSE he's been systematically abusing you, as apart from the covert abuse hidden within even seeingly benign or 'positive' interactions and conversations, making you feel wrong, guilty, etc. thus pressured for not wanting what he wants - plus his own, original, open pressuring - you, now, unawares, are continuing the pressure FOR him - in your head. Think rotten Tennis match where only the giant spoiled baby gets to be server. He sends you a ball with force - your return has to be with force, or may even be forceful automatically via kinesis even if all you did was hold your racquet firmly so that it rebounded into his court with his force still in play. If you keep your grip on the racquet firm, the force of his serve won't fracture your wrist. (Hoping you get tennis?) Why should HE get to set a time-deadine in your head like that. There is zero rush. All you have to do is keep avoiding these pre-arranged dates with him and try not to see him even here and there until you ARE fit enough... Because - You've done nothing wrong; you entered this relationship with good and honest, NORMAL romantic intentions. He's the problematic element (NPD fauxlationship = impossible for the target-victim to take any blame)... So there ISN'T any pressure, save for these pre-arranged dates and 'having to' see him, especially. And that is too piss-easily dealt with: You could ("cough-cough-splutter!") relapse, after all, worse than before, for - ref. turning the tables by using HIS "power" against HIM - having pushed yourself too hard - for HIS sake - against doctor's orders, 'ectually' - to get too soon out of your sickbed and do stuff. (And even his seemingly nicely-intentioned attempts to see you meanwhile creates more, illness-exacerbating pressure for you.) 'AWWW, WHO'S A SILLY-BILLY, THEN! Own Goal. Relapses happen, literally ALL THE TIME ("out-Narcing" using his own weapon, Plausible Deniability). You could even (if forced to), tell him this time you'd appreciate his doing the normal kindly thing in giving you TOTAL SPACE or all he'll be achieving is delaying your recovery and ability TO 'get back to normal', doing normal things. He doesn't need to know that the first thing you'll do is dump him. He, the Tennis Serve-hogger, doesn't serve honesty so how can you return honesty - now that you realise you're not in a relationship but a 'match' (war). Even then - he is NOT your husband or fiance - nor has he treated you nicely-normally. So you owe him NOTHING... And by getting nothing, he'd be getting off lightly because the fact is, he owes you money. (Again, you obviously have to write that off, BUT see it as this, the TRUTH: 'ONLY X Dollars/Pounds to get an emotional, lifestyle, financial rapist off my trail - wow, what a bargain! Someone up there likes me.' Trust me - sooo many victims of either gender do not get out this quickly or lightly, wealth-health-wise. Some are ruined for-life - at the worst time possible (no retirement, having lost the home they loved...). Think about that one and pop open a bottle of champers then patting yourself admiringly on your back. And hey - you take ALL the credit in this because you saw the sense and similarities in what I was saying and basically cooperated and even improvised beautifully; many won't or don't dare listen and learn by other people's experiences, takes them FAR longer than you to dare accept the truth of the situation for what it is). In actual FACT, MTF, it is BETTER NOT to give him, what we call Closure, and using it to learn to do/be better with the next person, because all Malignants upwards use your explanations of what they did wrong or wrong too far as lessons in how to be WORSE with the next victim in not making the same mistakes for the purposes of ROMANTIC-CONNING MORE CONVINCINGLY. By refusing to go into anything specific, let alone detail, he will have non choice as to behave as equally as, or even more, detectable and off-putting (possibly far sooner-in) with the next would-be-victim. Even making mistakes BY assuming and correcting what didn't need correcting. Furthermore, our minds can deal with No Closure. His type's can't. (As with Empathy/Sympathy . they CAN learn from experience if it's to benefit THEMSELVES - just never us.) It'll put him off his game big-time, equals, even better future-victim-prevention via his own inadvertent early-warning-system ('hoisted by his own petard'). ...and then you could buy yourself some Superwoman pyjamas, consider yourself an anti-Narc Vigilante on the quiet, haha-but-true. You are kind-of a "Narcissist's Worst Nightmare" already so it wouldn't be much of a leap, once you'd genned-up and realised what you meanwhile were naturally, instinctually choosing to do (your whole line of ancestors must have been no strangers to bullying and exploitation, or were policemen, detectives, forensics, barristers... that's all I can say :))... Because, I still think you're handling this remarkably well, if my opinion's anything to go by? (It is.) You are showing so many women and men, right now, a very non-bumpy, well-regulated and -paced method of very-very carefully and cautiously-done NSpath dumping from the 'menu' of choices. Sure, you've had help with the virus, but even so. Who ever said there WASN'T a 'third hand' (Fate) constantly in play by your side? We always think succeeding at anything is constantly just up to us. Not so. You've just seen proof. "Coincidences" my arse. TOO coincidental and exclaiming, What were the chances?!, should be ones very glaring sign that Fate's doing its bit to look after you. I repeat: something up there likes you; that was a BIGGIE. Again: the bug's spot-on helpful timing plus the spot-on nature of help itself, is the giveaway. ***Fate's hand was sent TO delay you, the message being: TAKE YOUR TIME, DO *NOT* RUSH.*** That's why I'M in no rush on your behalf . I do get it. I do as it tells me. So should you or you're showing ingratitude for it's A1 perfect, TAILORED, help package. (Sounds mad but bloody is not, I have had TOO MUCH proof my whole life. We're talking, CONCRETE proof that can't be explained any other way, even after decades and decades of trying, including by specialist intellectuals + experts/forensics detectives/barristers, judges - you name it, having a damn good go at trying to find a rational, earthly explanation, but then, like everyone, being faced with only that one, possible, remaining answer which makes not just any but *perfect* sense of each incident/event - and looking at life in a new, and suspicious, but less arrogant and more hopeful way...(bit of a brain-uck and sudden expansion of consciousness/iQ + eQ, for predominantly Left-brainers, putting it mildly, IOW.) WHILE you're not rushing and (despite he's trying to break that taboo) CAN'T be rushed (it's Nature's say-so, not his, not yours, even), where rushing you gets him anywhere between nowhere and self-sabotaging (- even more time he doesn't have, wasting), HE will soon enough provide you with the OOMPH to end it. He has thrown *himself* under the bus and will throw himself under the next, even harder, whereby it'll prove 'fatal'. They're stupid risk-takers anyway (no interest or awareness of consequences) so, as you've seen, put them under pressure threat by your passiveness and passive-agressiveness, and they take risks too far and blow their whole game/nature. The Final Insult. I think this and only this would send him nicely stratospheric: "I'm sorry, but this sham of a relationship is Over" and then BLOCK-BLOCK-BLOCK AND CHANGE OR ADD TO THE FRONT AND BACK DOOR LOCKS. (I'd THE guide you from there on what to do, e.g. if he has any personal stuff at your house or vice-versa). Because that statement says all that NEEDS to be said, all he DESERVES to know...but is too general for him to be able to work out what things he did wrong or how (e.g. without requisite finesse). He wouldn't have a CLUE where and how he'd gone wrong (e.g. too far/not far enough). Or you could keep him off the scent entirely by (fake) gently and regretfully informing him that you simply cannot handle his terrible, terrible Halitosis any more and can't understand why he hasn't noticed and been to the dentist to get it sorted, rather than your having to do the awkward thing of telling him. Or it could be his B.O.? Or BOTH, lol. Can you imagine? :D He'd follow that Red Herring, try to sort the entirely wrong thing and not even LOOK at his romantic-con method! Meanwhile, he can't prove that, to your "over-sensitive" nose - he didn't have either! PERFECT. _____________________ Were you aware of the truth about when it comes to dumping someone who's tried to use and mistreat you - and two-fingers-up to the (hah!) relationship's tenure? You don't actually have to provide any talk or explanation whatsoever if you don't want to. You could just text or email him if you prefer (if your integrity NEEDS that?). But, otherwise, this time you'd be too ill for him to see you in-person (awww). Or you could say the Covid test was too soon to show Positive (oh no) - again, happens a lot. A LOT. Happening all over, as we speak. Not even the vaccines can actually STOP you getting Covid. And if you 'have' Covid and he demanded to see your paper proof - because the request is out-of-order, you'd have every right to yell, OH, PISS...OFFFF! and put the phone down and be so offended you'd want the OPPOSITE of any more of his calls and texts - just plain Contact! - while you're suffering and waiting to recover (Game, Set, Match!). Or use your Anxiety. Say you're now suffering the runs as well, due to stress/pressure, and nearing Panic Attacks too often. Make yourself, con target-wise, NOT WORTH HIS WHILE, TOO MUCH LIKE HARD WORK FOR TOO LONG when there are easier targets out there or he has other targets lined-up (maybe THAT's why he's seen some of these houses 'on his own', eh). They're nothing if not mentally lazy. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ You HAVE to lie in your sort of situation - IT'S LITERALLY RECOMMENDED by experts. You're only returning HIS lies after all, him being the non-friendly server, putting heavy spin on his serve, meaning, you having to have the racquet knocked out of your hand unless you hit it back - with his own spin now reversed. Any truth, he will use against you. Like you've seen: I am merely ill / Great, I'll come round! Whereas normals know you don't want visitors in that state but haven't got the energy to argue. You give him ANY truth thus ANY opening, he will crawl through it to get to you again. DO IT and you will not regret it. Tell him any truth and you will... _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ...Particularly if you're still ill thus low and 'spent'. Without strength to do it naturally, you're going to need that huge indignation type of anger. And this, always, always, always comes sooner or later. This 'meeting your line in your sand' is what I've always called, waiting for the Final Insult. Because, of course, they met your line in the sand ages back and THAT didn't do you any favours? It's the glue...and knowledge=power - and biding your time to ensure YOU'RE in control now - is solvent. His visit and the bill-paying NEARLY did it. But it wasn't enough. Think 'bucket'`....drip, drip, drip eventually is going to see that bucket overflow. Or he could pour in one, large quantity that does it. Cue fury and dumping him - and not having any difficulty (from your end) whatsoever. So - waiting for him to trigger your fury (huge indigation) and/or survival mode to kick in We're waiting for it to overflow but as you lack the strength needed at the mo, is like the bucket having a bit of a leak but which will patch itself good-as-new, given proper time and relaxation (AND some fun). Once you do reach the very end of your tether, your anger will crowd out EVERYTHING you've been feeling and - BAM! "Crikey, that was easy?". 'Everything is always alright in the end. If things are not alright - just means it's not the end yet' (- moi). :) Keep talking - you'd be surprised how much it helps.

Sorry - I'll do that again, properly and befittingly: "And if you 'have' Covid and he demanded to see your paper proof - because the request is out-of-order, you'd have every right to yell, OH, PISS...OFFFF! and put the phone down and be so offended you'd want the OPPOSITE of any more of his calls and texts - just plain Contact! - while you're suffering and waiting to recover (Game, Set, Match!)." GAME, SET AND MATCH TO MTF (and a lot of otherwise would-have-been future victims). :)))))))

PS: You'll find it very helpful, now, with your new, better torch and its 'Infra-Red + Dark Light settings', to re-read our whole thread conversation, i.e. this time *knowing* he is *not* just a normal bloke having a bad year and taking it out on you, but a real, live (to quote Jennifer Smith) Sociopathic Nutjob. (Do visit her site. Granted, it's for those who were trapped far longer than yourself, really, but you'll still spot aspects galore of your 'BoyFiend'. I love her well-earned cynicysm, if not her seeming insistence that all Malignant Narcs are Spaths or Psychos and should be lumped togetherwhen their motives and agendas and/or degrees of such, (and other otherwise missable tells) differ - as do the symptomatic behavioural cocktail of their targets. Other than that, I pretty-much agree with everything on there.)

I forgot to say/ask: "He did mention he was so looking forward to our trip so that may have been the reason for his behavior but as I’ve said before I still haven’t paid my half and don’t intend to do so. " More like, he's so looking forward to your paying your half deposit (just to get his hands on the dosh or to STOP you from wanting to pull-out, like he suspects is coming - because then a 'joint' house purchase would be impossible) (we've already seen his idea of joint/shared, haven't we). But a Spath (lazy) wouldn't make the "gargantuan" effort to come see you and risk getting caught in rush-hour traffic, just for one reason. So it'll be to pressure you to pay your whole half of his rent; your half of the holiday deposit; and, to view houses to "buy together", of course. (Out of interest: he's the one who's booked the trip (using his card, yes?)...have you seen the booking confirmation to know that half-deposit is even the true amount?)

Decided to go to his place tomorrow morning. I’m determined to break up when I arrive. Actually I’m not that anxious anymore. I just want to get it behind me. 2 things happened today that made my decision easier. First he texted the other day and asked if I wanted to play pickelball on Saturday with him and I texted that we can discuss Saturday and when I arrive on Friday. But today I got a confirmation that he booked both of us for pikelball on Saturday afternoon without asking me!! The second thing is he still hasn’t offered for me to use the garage parking space that I PAID FOR!! Supposed he expects me to run around find parking and then pay for it and then walk to the apt. Omg this guy never ceases to amaze me!!

And apparently now there’s a third thing. Just got a text that he made dinner plans for us with his friends for Saturday night. Omg. After I’ve told him clearly never to do that without discussing with me first!!

MTF - NO! SERIOUS WARNING! DO *NOT* TELL HIM TO HIS FACE *NOR* ON HIS TERRITORY and *NEVER* ALONE *NOR* BEHIND CLOSED DOORS / AN ENCLOSED SPACE - DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT! DO IT OVER THE PHONE! 'YOURS' - BY HIS LACK OF SMOOTHNESS, E.G. JUST REPEATING HIMSELF WHILE IGNORING WHAT YOU'VE SAID MULTIPLY - AND BEING OPEN AND BLATENT IN FRONT OF COMPANY, EVEN - IS PATENTLY OBVIOUSLY A *LOW*-FUNCTIONING N-SPATH WHOM HAS ALREADY INDICATED (if you know the signs) A PRONE-NESS TO VIOLENCE - ALBEIT SO FAR WELL-SUPPRESSED (but not if you know the signs) - NOT LEAST, VIA HIS PENCHANT FOR USING HIS PHYSICAL PRESENCE AND BODY-LANGUAGE AS HIS BACK-UP INTIMIDATION AID. THE POINT AT WHICH HE REALISES YOU *ARE* *FOR-REAL* ENDING IT WILL CAUSE "NARCISSISTIC INJURY" AS COULD HAVE HIS MASK SUDDENLY FALL OFF (OR WANTONLY RIP IT OFF HIMSELF), REVEALING THE FULL-BLOWN MONSTER'S FACE, AND FOR ALL ANYONE KNOWS, DO GOD KNOWS WHAT TO YOU! "CRIMES DE COEUR" (rage at sudden total loss of control and 'investment' and it not being his idea) ARE OVERLY COMMITTED BY LF SOCIOPATHS - USUALLY DUE TO SUSPECTED CHEATING - SENSING YOU'RE ENDING IT - HEARING YOU ENDING IT - WATCHING YOU ACTUALLY LEAVING. One can never know whether even the most, all-along, seemingly mild-mannered type can suddenly turn violent! You know what seemingly means. Just the character act he customised. Sociopaths are the 'best' chameleons of the bunch. When they turn on you - most are so stunned they go instantly into Shock. Even the best-case scenario - where he leaves his fists out of it and relies on his mouth/words - could still be a wholly intense, scary, traumatising, destabilizing, hours and hours-long endurance. WHY RISK IT. And what about me and our readers? Why should we be forced to watch an wholly avoidable - completely unnecessary - Train Crash or worse, thank-you...simply because you can't abstain from the doing the right thing EVEN WITHIN THE WRONG SITUATION WITH THE WRONG RECIPIENT, making it the Oh So WRONG thing! Not to mention foolish. ______________________________ "Anger is one of the most easily accessible emotions for the sociopath, and one that shows up frequently in their relationships, work, and daily life. They can be easily angered, irritated, and prone to yelling, aggression, or outbursts when upset. Nov 8, 2021 15 Signs of a Sociopath: Traits & Characteristics - Choosing Therapy https://www.choosingtherapy.com › signs-of-a-sociopath ______________________________ What if a sociopath takes off his mask, does he become violent? No. A mask is made in order to blend in, by having social cues, react correctly and fake emotions. When it comes off, all of that is gone. A sociopath would become extremely blunt and straight to the point in their answering when the mask is off. They also wouldn't care about your issues, emotions, and you in general. Even with the lack of care, that doesn't make a sociopath violent. ****Oddly enough, sociopaths who are violent would tend not to have a mask at all, since most of them are likely lower functioning sociopaths.**** ______________________________ "Psychopaths tend to be more manipulative and minimize risk in criminal activities. Sociopaths, on the other hand, are typically more erratic and rage-prone — and subsequently, more dangerous." https://www.cnbc.com/2022/10/16/common-signs-of-a-sociopath-they-can-be-harder-to-spot-than-psychopaths-says-psychiatrist.html ______________________________ Formal symptoms of antisocial personality disorder Antisocial personality disorder appears in two places on the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th edition, text revision (DSM-5-TR). The classic diagnostic criteria of the DSM-5-TR define ASPD as a long-term pattern of disregard for others and a violation of others’ rights, present since age 15, and indicated by three or more of the following: repeated acts of criminality that demonstrate a lack of conformity with social norms and lawful behaviors deceitfulness, primarily for personal gain or pleasure ***impulsivity ***aggressiveness and irritability displayed through physical altercations or assaults ***disregard for personal safety or safety of others patterns of irresponsibility lack of remorse _______________________________ NOW PLEASE GOOGLE 'TINA NASH'. (I don't even want the LINK to that pure evil on here.) And then please reassure me you will do it over the phone or at the very least, in a crowded but intimate crowded place, like a pub. PS: the capitals are for emphasis, not (sadly) for melodrama. This stuff is real.

MTF, can you reassure me with an update, please? Or if you don't have time - just one line to indicate you're okay and safe, and not in a state? I hope you didn't do it to his face in his apartment, and that you're alright? PS: I was too busy being alarmed, earlier, so I didn't get to comment on your post. I'll do it tonight, while I'm waiting...

Went there today. Of course he didn’t offer me the parking space. I walked in and just told him I didn’t want to be in the relationship anymore. He went into a panic and kep begging me to give him another chance. He said he was calling me last night to tell me he wanted to pay for the entire July trip. Not sure that’s true but I’ve never caught him in a lie. I left and went home reminding him I was parked at a meter He keeps begging to come to my house and then he’d drive me back to the apt and we’d go to dinner with his friends tomorrow and the baby naming on Sunday. He kept telling me how much he loves me etc and he’ll do anything to stay with me including buying his own home My inclination is to stay away from him

He called and said he’d really like to come see me tonight and he wants me to have a dozen red roses he bought. I told him I’m not up to company and would call him tomorrow after I get a good nights rest. He still wants to take me to Europe next month in his dime.

Not reading ahead (and thank-you by the way - PHEW!)... First-off: all the following from your previous post needs no comment from me about how behaving like that *plus* behaving like that in FRONT of you - and not just the once but time and time and TIME AGAIN - is just bloody insane, really effed-up: 2 things happened today that made my decision easier. First he texted the other day and asked if I wanted to play pickelball on Saturday with him and I texted that we can discuss Saturday and when I arrive on Friday. But today I got a confirmation that he booked both of us for pikelball on Saturday afternoon without asking me!! The second thing is he still hasn’t offered for me to use the garage parking space that I PAID FOR!! Supposed he expects me to run around find parking and then pay for it and then walk to the apt. Omg this guy never ceases to amaze me!! And apparently now there’s a third thing. Just got a text that he made dinner plans for us with his friends for Saturday night. Omg. After I’ve told him clearly never to do that without discussing with me first!!" (*BANGS HEAD REPEATEDLY AGAINST DESK-TOP*) (Maybe needs just that comment, LOL) ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ Now to this latest... "Went there today. Of course he didn’t offer me the parking space. I walked in and just told him I didn’t want to be in the relationship anymore. He went into a panic and kep begging me to give him another chance. He said he was calling me last night to tell me he wanted to pay for the entire July trip. Not sure that’s true but I’ve never caught him in a lie. I left and went home reminding him I was parked at a meter He keeps begging to come to my house and then he’d drive me back to the apt and we’d go to dinner with his friends tomorrow and the baby naming on Sunday. He kept telling me how much he loves me etc and he’ll do anything to stay with me including buying his own home My inclination is to stay away from him" ___________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1. Blimey, you like to live dangerously? (Not in insurance, then, LOL) 2. Of course he didn't (p-space). You only do that for someone you VALUE, and want to ENCOURAGE to want come round as often as poss., don't you. 3. Ooh, did you? VERY assertive and no-nonsense - impressed! 4. Oh, so he tried the tears and begging method, rather than giant-spitting the giant dummy? Interestink. But thank God! Means he thinks he can lure you back in at some point, by the way. If he knew there were zero way, that it was 100% Over, well....yikes (maybe). Plus begging is flattering. Plus you're supposed to think, OMG, he really does love me....ach ...despite the truth is, then he wouldn't have gone into a relationship with that attitude or even side-attitude, nor behaved like that. End of. What - only loves you when he thinks he's going to lose you but can't be arsed to share his feelings the rest of the time? PFFF. Guy LITERALLY makes you The Disappearing Woman (from that comedy clip up there). BOO-HOO, BUT I LOVE YOOOU....but barely...hence not enough to merely help you park safely. ERROR - DOES NOT COMPUTE! BOO-HOO, BUT I LOVE YOOOU....not enough to offer to refund you the parking-space cost. ERROR - DOES NOT COMPUTE! BOO-HOO, I LOVE YOOOU...which is why he consistently, continually acts like / behaves as if (either-or-both) you're so unimportant, so Persona Non-gratis to him, not working Taking, let alone Seriously!, that your voice doesn't even register outside of your own head, or if it does, doesn't strike my mind as important or obstacle enough to even react to, to retain, to acknowledge....let alone reply, let alone take on board and react according to. (Well, Foghorn ol' fella - then maybe you are just TOO THICK for a relationship? Or to even hang out with genuine grown-ups! And people who weren't raised by wolves.) He "loves" how you make HIM feel, what you do for HIM (even .stuff you aren't aware of), "loves" how much you'll enhance his LIFE STATUS... LIFESTYLE... CREDIT RATING...HIS - *HIS* - MATERIAL WEALTH.....and semblance of Normality (you make him look and sound good which is another reason he can't go anywhere without you and it makes him Narc-style Vulnerable...people might notice for the first time what a psychologically seriously disturbed ahole he is!... on and on go the benefits Awww, he MUST have included tears to have got that BS going over your head (which, obviously, it didn't anyway, haha). Or by talking ten-to-the-dozen and taking the conversation down loads of irrelevant side-alleys... Pff...Loves you. Well, if that's Love, GOD only knows how he treats someone he feels nothing but Contempt for and Superiority over. Yeah....that's how *I* treat people I care about and show them I love them, yeah.... ("Say it with Taking & Not Paying Back". Not quite Flowers, eh.) Ludicrous. LUDICROUS. Just ...uh...puh...buh.....GAAAAAAH.. This stuff just never STOPS leaving me speechless. (This guy IS Von Crap from Lily 31's thread. Bloody twins. Just different classes (although you wouldn't know it). Scopes - Lily's deputy "Constant" and our long-term veteran poster - thinks so too - go have a peek at one of his latest comments if you haven't already? But then, they are, moreover, all the same (the only type you CAN say that about withoug sounding sexist, just real).) Question: were there (fake) tears (actual watering with pink/redness - both eyes? if not - which?) to accompany his Too-Late Romeo act? - or just the protracted begging (which is a bit like BADGERING/HECTORING...did you spot that same tactic, that same sh*t just sprinkled with sugar and little puppydog eyes?)? (Be prepared. He might pester and if so (depending on whether another Supply is ripe and ready) switch all in the one conversation (or just over a handful of days), from being lovely (petals and tealights all over the boxing-ring) to insulting you (trying to provoke you by the ego back into the ring) to pretending he's over it and already met someone much better (less dignifiedly feisty) than you, to trying to SCARE you (you need um man to protect you because)... everything but getting real (because this was a scam from within a fake relationship). Scammers don't and wouldn't ever get real with their marks, their sources of lifestyle and income, end of. Right, let's read on...) (Wait up...PS: if he were a kid whom you'd expect to know not to ever live your life and behave like that, fair enough - second chance. But malevolent intent, due to lifelong, permanent stuntedness, in a grown man - never mind being capable of releasing it as an act, a whole performance - ....Nah. Let's just stick with - "GAAAAAAH".) 5. Into a panic, eh? "Nooo, not my Golden Goose and Nest Egg-On-Leeeegs, nooo!". Or what would he have you presume he'd thought you were before this wake-up call: a coffee table? Gosh, then you ending it must have REALLY opened his eyesWHAT A CROCK. Ugh, ach, GAAAAH! 6. "Another chance, another chance" - what, fifty chances wasn't enough? HAH! CROCK. Gaaaaah. Talk about over-and-over insulting your intelligence! 7. "He said he was calling me last night to tell me he wanted to pay for the entire July trip." Oh, no, what bad timiiiiing. Had his texting finger fallen off, then? PFFF, yeah, so easy to say that NOW. (Too late, pal.) He'd ensure to sneak your side of the cost back from you somehow, you know he would. (Future-faking, Future-faking....) 8. "Not sure that’s true but I’ve never caught him in a lie. " ? Er.....Yes you have? Just today, as I've just shown up there. The reason he doesn't lie noticably is because he doesn't need to....too arrogant and cocky...just pretends you haven't said anything and carries on regardless...and then says boo-hoo I love you. Come ON, MTF, don't you go getting .sucked into his rabbit-hole again. Not even a little bit (it's a slippery slope OR ELSE WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION, YOU'D HAVE CHUCKED HIM DISGUSTEDLY AGES AGO). Back in the room, please. No self-delusion to buy into ANY of his illusions. He's had too many chances and opportunities to put his I Love You money where his Boo-Hoo mouth is, over too long a period, already. Is this an, Uh-Oh, we're losing her, point? Hope not but I'll read on... 9. "I left and went home reminding him I was parked at a meter " Oh, okay? Good-good...(phew). He HAS lied to you. A lot. It's clear in all of the actions since you started reporting them here. But I'll list them if you like, if that would help dispell this one confusion or lack of clarity of yours? RsVP. PS: If he had decided all-of-a-sudden to pay for your half then why not go at least SOME way of PROVING it when the opportunity is staring you in the face - BY PAYING YOU BACK FOR JULY'S RENT AND THIS NOW UNAVAILABLE TO YOU WHO'S PAID FOR IT, PARKING SPACE! ERROR - DOES NOT COMPUTE! It was the obvious thing to do. HE IS NOT THICK OR SLOW-MINDED. HE'S A LIAR. SAYING BOO-HOO I LOVE YOU IS ITSELF A GIANT LIE. He doesn't know OR CARE what love is! Look, I know you're more resolute than not, but - SELF-TALKING YOURSELF INTO EVEN A SHADOW OF A DOUBT IS TOO RISKY. Try not to think too much and prematurely conclude like that. Let the jigsaw pieces all naturally fall and click into the right places. Have a good night's sleep, take it easy so your energy is available to your mind (a slob-out come further-recuperation weekend). 10. "He keeps begging to come to my house and then he’d drive me back to the apt and we’d go to dinner with his friends tomorrow and the baby naming on Sunday." He keeps NAGGING. NAGGING. Dressed up as begging. Even if this were a normal clash with a normal guy who'd peed-off his girlfriend with a normal emotional crime because he was just being carelessly thoughtless (but not almost constantly mad, obnoxiously insulting and already long-pickpocketing with it) and I were relationship coaching you - I'd STILL say, MAKE HIM SWEAT, do NOT let him get back into your good books THAT easily or he'll have no effective deterrent next time. He needs to be a bit SCARED to put a foot wrong (if he's still socially inept and can't naturally KEEP his feet from going wrong at his age!) Fine to see what HE does when made to sweat or whether he even acts (or fakes) sweatiness. But let's still keep to seeing it straight, okay? Just if you're not quite ready to snip the rotten umbilicus. He clearly needs you as his impressions-management with this other couple. QUESTION: Who are they, how long's he known them - do they live quite far away? 11. HE'D DRIVE YOU BACK? TO HIS APARTMENT? Jeez, NO THANKS! What's that about, then? So you couldn't suddenly back out on the day? QUESTION: I hope you said no thanks? 12. "He kept telling me how much he loves me etc and he’ll do anything to stay with me including buying his own home " OH, SO HE *DOES* KNOW WHAT HE'S BEEN DOING WRONG, THEN. "Gotcha!", Mr Dom Conner. 13. "He kept telling me how much he loves me etc and he’ll do anything to stay with me including buying his own home " Oh, allelujlia!!! Don't do that! MTF: 1 Predator: 0 :) Excellent. But do, as I say, refrain from concluding until your brain's stopped spinning. That kind of verbal denial to already noted, bad acts, makes your brain...well, it's like if I tied your legs behind your head. You'd need help getting out of it, eh. Or need your full energy to untangle yourself. (Sorry for the image, LOL, just realised, hahahah!) Good-good-GOOD! Proud of you hug: (((hug))) Your daughter's not only going to be thrilled, she's going to look at you with NEW EYES, hahaha, bless her. Kids think they know everything, don't they. ;) Thanks for keeping me on the edge of my seat by leaving the reassuring denouement till the very last minute (why yooou little minx, you! LOL).

"He called and said he’d really like to come see me tonight and he wants me to have a dozen red roses he bought. I told him I’m not up to company and would call him tomorrow after I get a good nights rest. He still wants to take me to Europe next month in his dime." Oh uckadoodle - just noticed this follow-on! A dozen Red roses? Oh, well. Now you can effectively marry him with going halves on a house because you'll always know how to handle hims disgusting treatment and neglect of you, week-in-week-out: "Just" keep packing your suitcase and telling him you're leaving him. Yeeeaaaay....Greeeeeat.... I love being loved once it's over - don't you? Rather than loved while it was on. (GOOD..... ....GRIEF!) (Not caught him in a lie? NOT CAUGHT HIM IN A LIE??????? Mmmmmmmate! Seriously?) He is not saying I Love You with flowers, is he - hence all this time hasn't been. He's saying I Don't Want To Lose (My Golden Goose) with flowers! This is what's so - unbeknownst to them (or to you until a day or two's time) - INFURATING about when they suddenly step up. You KNOW it's false because otherwise, were it his nature, he'd have been doing it all along. It takes you LEAVING him. THAT is what motivates him. Not you being in his life, being with him. That up there wasn't so much a "please don't dump me", relationship preservation attempt as a real-world reenactment of The Mad Hatter's Tea Party! "Boo-hoo, don't dump meeee... because I love yoooou (despite you haven't notiiiced because there's been nothing tooo notiice, boo-hoo ME-ME-ME!" Bit like this: (Interview) Employer: So what makes you suitable for this position? Interviewee: I hacked your computer and invited myself for this interview. Haha, very good. So why do you want this job? I've always felt passionate about not starving to death. Haha, quite the joker...What special skills do you have? Lying. Haha!.....what - really? Interviewee: No. Ha! Where do you see yourself in 5 years? In your chair. Haha!....you're still joking, right? Yes, I'm cough-not! joking. I just meant, in your chair but asking better questions. Okay!...er...... Anyway, what would you say was your greatest shortcoming? Honesty. I don't think that honesty is a shortcoming? I don't care WHAT you think....to be honest. Ah...very good...er.......yes, so.... How many years' experience have you in this field? Thirty. And how old are you now? Twenty. Oh, so you did a lot of overtime? Yes, while I slept. I'm supremely dedicated. Great! Well, it says in your CV that you're quick with Maths, too? What's 17 plus 19? 24. That's not even close! But it was quick. ....True-true!..er... So where do you ACTUALLY see yourself in 5 years? I'd say my biggest weakness is not listening. ____________________________________________________________ This begging isn't just nagging with Sprinkles, is it. It's not mere badgering/hectoring, either. This is him ignoring everything you say, thereby, almost depriving you your humanity....your full existence. It's similar to a Nazi attitude. You're not a human being. You're, say, just one of those wind-up dolls, where you pull the string and 'the doll' comes out with a pre-recorded sentance or two. And inevitably, eventually, your brain tunes her words out, bar the now-background sound of her voice. You haven't even 'pulled your own string' enough times for that, though, have you. So how many other women's strings had he pulled before you, and how many times for how many years? Back full circle to.... He is a despot. Is *anyone* up for company with him - *could* anyone? - unless you're there to automatically water him down and sweeten him up, just by being you? No wonder he's panicking about having to 'socialise' without you on his arm. I just want to slap his face, rapidly back-and-forth. LOL. Sorry, but I do. Re still wants Europe: No. Wants you to believe he does. How long for? A whole month? Were I in your position and even thinking of going, I would definitely change the locks and install visible but unreachable CCTV cameras front and back before I dared. His other job is, petty crim who knows less petty crims, like house-burglars. But. Since you've said your instinct is to stay away from him - maybe not. Or maybe, anyway, either way. No, this guy's unhinged. I don't trust him one jot and his cocky craziness (zero shame, zero off-limits) is off the scale! It means something. A lot. Anyway...I'll be around here and there this weekend so, keep posting. You'll no doubt start to remember more...other details, thoughts...joining of dots. At your service as ever, Modom. :) PS: Idea. Tell him you'll believe him and his very late flowers (cheers for the comparitively-speaking One Pound hairslide from The Pound Shop, Mr Multi-Millionnaire, pff) if he keeps them coming AFTER this weekend etc. of your NOT coming to his friends and this baby naming event (when you're still getting over your illness). And if he pays you back for the rent - ALL OF IT - YOU DON'T CHARGE YOUR GF TO STAY OVER! - and for the parking space rental - and whatever you feel he owes you.... Let's see what he does with that, shall we?

Words and show of begging is all very nice and that (puke), but - like Eliza Doolittle says: "Don't tell me - SHOW ME!" Here...he loves you so much? Why doesn't he prove it since he's sooo desperate to and buy YOU a house, in your sole name, etc? (Yeah, right, course he would. But the point is - forcing him into a corner, showing him you see through him so that he'll either have to prove you wrong or he'll have to dump YOOOOU! But, no. You don't want to be Prisoner Cell Block "His Apartment" OR "His Car"!

"My inclination is to stay away from him" Whereas mine is to catch a flight to your house, kidnap you, bring you back here to Spain - give you a holiday for a month or two - and hope he meanwhile slinks away. LOL. (Sodding malignants, ugh.)

PPS: He WON'T be taking you to Europe, you know. Heard this one a thousand times before, especially with promised trips. He can AFFORD to say he'll pay it all. Because it won't happen. Right now, I wouldn't even believe there IS any booked trip. Just a faked screeenshot or whatever he sent (IF he sent!) and he'd have pocketed your money - like that recent RL woman I told you about (who's seat got given to a sudden new woman - and I'll bet he still charged her half!). He's just trying to keep you in his game for longer (long enough) with more future-faking. He just doesn't want YOU ending it - that to him is only HIS rightful privilege. He's just not ready to let you, his Golden Goose, go yet. Not until whichever Lilypad floats closest-up the fastest, whereupon he'll suddenly leap - taking your lilypad flower with him - and paddle smugly away. So that's why I'm making the suggestion to make him put his money where his mouth has all along been. Now. Not next week/month. NOW. Everything he owes you. In fact, you could tell him you're not going anywhere with any third parties for a while because he's broken your trust, put you back to almost Square One, so - that's where the relationship now is again. So it could take another 8 months to a year of just dating - meeting outdoors...restaurants, etc. - again - to win it back. If just a lifelong relationship with you is all he wants...if THAT is the only "investment" he doesn't want to lose, then, he'll agree. It only makes perfect sense, right? What choice does he have? None, now. But he would have to keep it up - and more besides. Again, you don't have to mean it...but, just to see what he says/does and how far he's prepared to make up for everything, to bend over somewhat backwards. And what's so odd about that, anyway? What did he think you were? Easy?

He's not in a hurry, I've decided. Just in a rush. Just greedy and lazy, and CLEARLY used to push-overs! But now too far into the sting to give up that easily. I'll bet you and I can make him want to give up. ():-)

Here - tell him I'll play Pickelball (whatever that is?) with him tomorrow. (Rhetorical question) (I don't need to know the rules. Just need the racquet. And him.)

Oh, dear.......what a palava, though, eh? (Date A Little White Minibus Passenger Dot Com :p)

Sorry - double pasted: "13. "He kept telling me how much he loves me etc and he’ll do anything to stay with me including buying his own home " 'Oh, allelujlia!!! Don't do that!' was meant in response to this: "My inclination is to stay away from him" (Probably makes more sense now, huh, LOL...my cue to go beddiebyes. Night!)

Woke up today to lovey texts and a notice he was trying to send me 10,000 with a note that he is sorry fir the way he handled the apt and parking which caused me to be upset. Omg

Sorry, I'm not sure I understood correctly: You're saying lovely texts and a - what do you mean 'notice'? And what do you mean TRYING to send. And you mean 10k dollars? Confirm and go into more detail please? As well as any update? If I've understood - that just makes me extra-nervous, actually. But I'll reserve judgement until you elaborate. But it's still a case of, conspicuous by its sudden, 12th Hour arrival. It still does, however, just prove again that ALL ALONG, he KNEW what he was doing was grossly unfair, inappropriate, unacceptable. But chose to do it all anyway. Just because he seemed to be getting away with it. He's only sorry he's been caught. That's why his so-called epiphany - gained in a nano-fraction of the time it normally takes any human to 'see the light', GIANT NOTE - has occurred only now. But I bet he's relying on your response to be: No, I couldn't possibly. And you couldn't. Because then you'd feel too obliged. And, bought. Look what his Sorry gesture would gain him. You, tied by obligation, and a significantly greater near-future or 'lifelong' gain in wealth and status (and borrowing power, note!) than 10k. That is literally a case of have to speculate to accumulate. I think I was right: he does think you're more wealthy than you are. But....let's see what you think. PS: Or is 10k what he's actually had out of you these last 2 years??

Nope, don't like this... Let me get my thoughts down because, actually, I don't think there IS anything you can say he's said/done, to change my mind....and that's even if he DID actually pay it in, rather was just feeling bold/desperate enough to have to rely heavily on your healthy principles (= using your strength as a weakness for loss-avoidance?) to make an empty offer... In fact, ESPECIALLY if he did pay it in, without waiting to see how'd feel about it (so he's still helping himself, note - just now in a switched-to-positive (or SEEMING positive) way. I wouldn't feel this way if it'd been just what he'd owed you. The One Extreme to Another, itself, is a Red Flag. Jekyll into Hyde into Jekyll (where Jekyll is the false mask). Because it reminds me of tactics they've tried on me. (Couldn't work, didn't work - shove your money/jewellery/car and shove your insulting proof that you were all-along *knowingly* depriving and neglecting me and could have stopped any time, BUT NOT FOR MY BENEFIT, EH. Just yours - to lure me back in. I don't WANT money, I want love and kindness and a bit of bloody normality! Or is that the only love and bloody kindness you can do?! No thanks. I want a working model, not something that escaped the attention of Quality Control). And tried on too many others. And reported about re. Love-Bombing you to Hoover you back in (google). Why now? If he WAS that flush - why wasn't he using his money to enhance your relationship experiences together. Why not yesterday - that was the time, SURELY. And every day before that. Course it was. And why not when it was time to create a good (or just not a BAD) impression on your daughter and relatives? Or your friends? Each time, ...every day of that 'relationship', he had all the opportunity in the world. And not because he couldn't. Because he didn't want to - simple as. ...He wanted to do as little as it took...mete it out, like a scientist adding another pipette drop. How flattering. How heartfelt. Ugh. Yep, he throws money at problems. His personality is secretly - well, not that secretly, but, in that case - soooooo much more unattractive, the longer you know him (which Mr Moneybags, sees no need to do anything about when there will always be "buyable" types out there), he basically has to pay or bribe people - and more than the once - to stick around. 'Ironically', all these problems, as we ourselves have seen, are exclusively ones that he and only he has needlessly, avoidably, seemingly worryingly unintelligently or even crazily, chosen to do and let happen. Again but now amended to suit: "He is not saying I Love You with 10k, is he - hence all this time has been the opposite of upstanding or showing just NORMAL sense of fairness, if not generosity. He's saying I Don't Want To Lose (My Golden Goose) with 10!" If that's his game - make it 50! What does he think you are - cheap? (Obviously, that's just hypothetical; I know you wouldn't, not over and above just what was owed, anyway.)

10k represents 2 months of rent I paid with parking. He picked me up and brought me here to go to dinner with his friends and a baby naming tomorrow then will drive me home and go back on Monday morning. Similar for next weekend. Guess he figures by driving back and forth I don’t have to park anywhere but I prefer to have my car here typically. At this point I told my daughter he wants a second chance and she reminded me she won’t talk to me if I’m seeing him and she hung up the phone. She stills feel mistreated by him and feels he mistreats me and my son too This afternoon he helped my son figure out an employment situation bc he’s an employment lawyer. It’s a start anyway I’m playing this situation hour by hour. Won’t be surprised if it fails but now I’m not paying for anything!

"10k represents 2 months of rent I paid with parking. He picked me up and brought me here to go to dinner with his friends and a baby naming tomorrow then will drive me home and go back on Monday morning. Similar for next weekend." Woah! Seriously!?! IN THAT CASE - IT'S YOURS SO TAKE IT! "Guess he figures by driving back and forth I don’t have to park anywhere but I prefer to have my car here typically." Yeah, course. Obviously the petrol to-back from yours is cheaper. So we're still back full circle to can't or won't afford the spare space. But we don't know where he suddenly got that 10k from. He could just be trying to Double Down his impression of being rich. QUESTION: HAVE YOU GOT THE MONEY IN YOUR ACCOUNT NOW? "At this point I told my daughter he wants a second chance and she reminded me she won’t talk to me if I’m seeing him and she hung up the phone. She stills feel mistreated by him and feels he mistreats me and my son too" Your son?? It's not that she still feels mistreated, it's because she can sense he is a bad choice of person. "This afternoon he helped my son figure out an employment situation bc he’s an employment lawyer. It’s a start anyway" Hmmm.... Or it's a love-bombing Hoovering kind of start (that too quickly gets dropped). One that doesn't involve losing any money above and beyond what he owes you, note. I don't trust him a jot, either. It's too late in the day to suddenly transform like that - AND transform so soon (as I've explained before). He's proving that these, what should have been naturally-driven favours, he could have been doing all along. If you (he) didn't know what you had before it was just about gone, then you were never worthy of it in the first place. At the very LEAST, he TRIED to be mean and ungiving. That alone shows he is NOT ready or fit for a relationship. Nah. Reckon you'd have to ultimatum him every time you needed him to pay his half of the mortgage and bills. Again, make him start from practically Squre One - see how he deals with it. "I’m playing this situation hour by hour. Won’t be surprised if it fails but now I’m not paying for anything!" Are you too intellectually intrigued to want to walk away just yet? It is very morbidly fascinating when you have an actual live one in front of you, isn't it. Yeah, you have yourpower and control back now; you've emotionally detached a significant amount. Is he not repulsing you yet, then? I mean, are you still able to bring yourself to cuddle or kiss him (or are you somehow managing to dodge his advances)? Do be VERY wary, though. Remember, if you plug one hole in the dam, same or similar starts coming out from a new hole while you're so busy with what you're doing, you might not even notice. Eyes peeled, Detective, LOL. Cheers for the update...keep keeping me posted. :) PS: Sorry OM is no longer here. She went suddenly weird on me, don't know if you saw? (Over on the "Breakup help needed, I regret ending it" thread). You think you know someone..., eh!

PS: Why don't you just be honest with your daughter and say you need at your age to stick around a bit (with utmost vigiliance, obviously, no worries) to make the most of this opportunity to learn first-hand how to spot and/or deal with future predators! (I mean - does she really think this'll be your first and last in your position?) And, because you're going back in, savvy, now - in the meantime, to see whether he CAN learn and turn himself completely around? I mean, I don't agree either, but I do agree with your right to take your University of Life Masters Degree when it presents itself? Who knows, maybe it'll clear-up or clean-up loads of memories from your past before you get comfy in your tartan slippers (Johnny Rotten tartan LOL) and start mentally flicking through your whole photo-album collection? That's pretty typical for "nearly-victims" or "early-woken-victims", actually.... WHAT *IS* THIS STRANGE CREATURE I SEE BEFORE ME??? Like when you used to find a Portuguese Man-Of-War, washed-up on the beach and would excitedly fetch a stick to start poking and getting a really good, all-angles look at it...."Come away, you'll get stung!" / "It's dead, mum!" / "It might NOT be - come away!". It is, isn't it. :D

PS: Yeah, he (if he's normal underneath it...er...all) will have to understand that you'd have to be STUPID to want to pay for another thing. now, thanks solely and exclusively to him! (His name isn't Stan Laurel or (worse) Oliver Hardy, is it? ;p)

So now another weird development. I received an email today from my boyfriends ex-wife. She apparently went into our law firms website and sent a general inquiry that she wanted to make an appointment with me. She left her email. The odd thing is she didn’t send me an email directly, but rather to our general mailbox, which may not have been intentional but it’s hard to say. I meant Lee contacted by my boyfriend And told him about this and he told me not to worry about it that she want to meet to meet me before their sons wedding in September and that he’ll contact me later I just and explain. I thinks it’s still weird.

It's important to have open and honest communication with your daughter and your boyfriend. Maybe they just need some time to get to know each other better and understand each other's perspectives. It's also worth discussing financial expectations and finding a balance that works for everyone. Remember, relationships can have their ups and downs, but with patience and understanding, things can improve. Keep the dialogue going and focus on finding common ground.

I just received a text from the ex that saying that there was some interesting us meeting one another before the wedding, but that she’s OK with waiting if I am. I think it was my bf was the initiator of this.

I know my bf starting mentioning me meeting his ex since his so was engaged last year. I did say something to him last week bc it never happened but I didn’t realize his ex would only meet me alone without my boyfriend present.

Hola, Sassy-Pants! :) "So now another weird development." Well, OF COURSE. He'd be a sh*t N-Spath if there wasn't, LOL. "I received an email today from my boyfriends ex-wife." WhatwhatWHAT? Let me read the next bit, jeez... "She apparently went into our law firms website and sent a general inquiry that she wanted to make an appointment with me. She left her email. The odd thing is she didn’t send me an email directly, but rather to our general mailbox, which may not have been intentional but it’s hard to say." Would she KNOW your direct addy? I think you'd probably do that - use the global, office one - if you weren't confident that the person's email wouldn't have changed? "I meant Lee contacted by my boyfriend And told him about this and he told me not to worry about it that she want to meet to meet me before their sons wedding in September and that he’ll contact me later I just and explain. I thinks it’s still weird." "Meant Lee" - what? Why did you immediately tell your 'possibly boyfriend'? If that's all it is, and he knew it was coming, then... 1. Her having to have told him - why would he not simply respond by giving her your direct addy himself, there-and-then? Or your phone number? Why leave her to effectively scrabble around in the dark and risk a total misfire and non-receipt? Surely this strongly suggests he (a) somehow refused to give her your addy when asked, or, (b) had no idea she was going to contact you, let alone why, and made this excuse up on-the-spot when you rang. 2. Why had he given you zero fore-'warning', if as he claims, he already knew her intention? 'Oh, btw, my ex-wife will be in touch shortly to...'. (You and I would, wouldn't we. And presumably he could aid the arranging of a meeting for work purposes, big, clever boy that he reckons he is?) Hmmm... Yes, I agree - it doesn't all gel for such an allegedly simple, normal motive and agenda on her part (and allegedly his joint) part. Bloody hell, he really thinks you're thick, doesn't he?! Or does he simply not have the intelligence to recognise a higher intelligence? Ach. Does ex-wife have a happy partnership/marriage now? If so, how many years? And does he see his ex or regularly converse by phone/text?...for him to allegedly know this? Does he not want you two to get a chance to talk? Or is he expected to be a party to yours and her mutual introduction? The more it doesn't fit in my head, the more I think he hadn't a clue. My worry is that by going straight to him, you might have missed an important opportunity. THING IS, THOUGH: He is supposed to be aware he's on probation. So why is he (and thereby his ex) behaving like he's taking your still being his beau come September, for-granted? You SURE it's his ex-wife's email address that's contacted you? Tip: When you reply, just say email's too formal for pre-nups and can you have her number. He can't fake her voice. (Yes, some of this conjecture of mine could be too far-fetched but that's the trouble with his type: everything they DO is far-fetched, meaning, you have to consider it, put nothing past them.)

"I know my bf starting mentioning me meeting his ex since his so was engaged last year. I did say something to him last week bc it never happened but I didn’t realize his ex would only meet me alone without my boyfriend present." Oh - didn't realise it was an update! "but I didn’t realize his ex would only meet me alone without my boyfriend present." WOAH! YES, MEET HER - NO, ASAP! Oh BOY does someone up there like you - 'What were the chances!?' Parte Deux!

I know my bf starting mentioning me meeting his ex since his so was engaged last year. I did say something to him last week bc it never happened but I didn’t realize his ex would only meet me alone without my boyfriend present.

Another "thing is, though": Nothing you do is actually a mistake; I've learned that much. Whether or not you know at the time what your inner warrior is planning or re-diverting, it clearly is used to psychological warfare.

Sorry, what I meant was, the as yet unknown reason, no doubt clever, why you immediately rang your BLEUGHfriend (sorry, being 'around' him, I need to burp-out the toxins here and there, LOL)

There is ALWAYS something, with an N-Spath, isn't there. Nothing that should be simple and straightforward ever is. Chaos and confusion rein...starting with these little pitter-patters of back-to-front, inside-out, upside-down, acidic raindrops with low-flying Fog. Plodding peace and time to smell the Daisies, you 'suddenly' one day realise, have gone straight out the window. It's like having a "slow learner" of a delinquent son. Or a son who couldn't 'run a bath' or 'organise a piss-up in a brewery'. Oh, duh - sorry, just re-read: law film. There we go, now the mist clears :) Nearly right. (Retrospective Insurance?) (ish? LOL) My fault for wearing the wrong pair of glasses, d'oh.

SHE DOESN'T WANT HIM PRESENT. And there's nothing he can do about it. Yesssss! Oh boy. If you only - I MEAN, IF YOU ONLY KNEW ...HOW MANY present and newly-ex partners' DREAM of an opportunity like this but daren't for fear of being suspected of Sour Grapes or getting a bad, in-denial-still, reception to whatever info. You never know, you know. She could be your next bessie mate? Wow. Crystal Ball-on-legs....

Looking forward to your update. :) In the meantime, a few straggler comments and questions, if you please: 1. Your post 10 June: "He called and said he’d really like to come see me tonight and he wants me to have a dozen red roses he bought." Look at how Foghorn used the fact of having bought you Roses, as a tool to work on you. He TELLS you he has! A normal-healthy-decent guy would have wanted to have waited until he got there, so as to surprise and delight you with them, see the huge grin on your face. Foghorn uses them as bait to make it more likely (he presumes) that you'll say yes to his coming round. (Yeesh.) 2. Secondly, I can't help but notice how: - On the evening of 9th June, despite his offer (bribe) to pay for the Europe trip, you state that your inclination is (still) to stay away from him. - To which, at 03:39 Spanish Time the very next morning/10th June, I say: "So that's why I'm making the suggestion to make him put his money where his mouth has all along been. Now. Not next week/month. NOW. ***Everything he owes you.***" - That same day day at 12:43, approx., just 8 hours later, you report that that same morning, THIS unexpectedly happened...right out-of-the-Blue! : "Woke up today to lovey texts and a notice he was trying to send me 10,000 with a note that he is sorry fir the way he handled the apt and parking which caused me to be upset. Omg" ***And, it turns out - this, *literally, IS* "everything he owes you".*** (I then point out the evidence of how he wasn't showing he was sorry. He, by having continued month after month to take money off you (to the tune of a whopping 10k), was showing he was the opposite of sorry (- my implication having been, sorry only now that he's been caught).) But - the timing is a bit notable, don't you think? Important Question: Has he ever borrowed any of your gadgets? Could he be spying here? Can you check, and meantime start deleting our URL from your Browsing History after each time you've logged-out? Or had his offer been in direct response to a demand from you, during your attempt to end it, to pay you everything he owed you?

Oh, and ref Point 1: Not just 'bought you some roses'. A DOZEN. RED ones. (*rolls eyes*) I'd have said - Gold Plate them and I'll think about it. :p

PS: Bet he hadn't even bought them at that point. I mean, you don't, do you...in case she (you) says No. You buy them on the way over so they'll be fresh. (You might not have caught him in a lie, but I have. Aaaaaall the way through. His are certainly missable if you don't slow right down and look hard enough, though.)

Hi, you're very quiet? You okay? Any update, please?

Hi all. Been sick all week but I’m ok now. Bf still trying to show me he’s changed and must admit it’s been easier to be with him. My daughter though told me the other day she’s “done” with me seeing him and that I can do what I want but for her own stress level and mental health she needs to set boundaries between us. I told her I need to live my own life and I’m sorry she feels they way. She reiterated that she wasn’t controlling my life but if I decide to stay with him our relationship will be impacted. So I told he he’d be here last night until tomorrow and she called me in the afternoon to catch up but o didn’t hear from her after that which is very unusual. I feel bad but I need to hold firm not just for now but for any future partners I may have that she may not like.

"Hi all. Been sick all week but I’m ok now." That's twice in a month. Is (as per the bestselling book for victim-survivors*) 'your body keeping the score', I wonder, and trying to warning-signal what the toxicity is doing to your state of health? Looks like it to me. Because - you stayed away and were feeling better, then started seeing him again (based on his successful Hoovering), now you're ill again (or have relapsed?). You have to appreciate that even when they're seemingly behaving and being nice - you are STILL downloading into your mind his "mental off-kilter-ness". Repetition, even as a theme, no matter how subtly or missably done, is how we Normal-Healthies learn...and how these idiots brainwash you into 'agreeing' with their thinking and doing their bidding. What's his conversation like. Do you find yourself here and there, as he speaks, thinking (or even just feeling), That's a bit odd? That doesn't sound right? Why would he he telling me this? Etc.? Or just generally end up with yet more questions than answers? Alternatively, does he make sense when you're in his company, but, later on or even days later, you can't quite remember or can't quote whatever it is he said and how he phrased it? (Remember, it's now proven that their speech patterns and tone, confidence of delivery, etc., have a hypnotic effect in-person or on the phone. Hence, when those aren't present, the 'speech' no longer makes sense or, as I say, is too elusive to re-construct into a complete sentance or paragraph.) How do you look, compared to before you got with him? How's the condition of your hair, skin and nails? Any mouth ulcers or white patches on your tongue? Any aches and pains (e.g. back)? Tell me any changes you can notice at all. "Bf still trying to show me he’s changed and must admit it’s been easier to be with him. " Well, as I've just suggested - that may just be what YOU think while your inner animal 'knows the score'. "My daughter though told me the other day she’s “done” with me seeing him and that I can do what I want but for her own stress level and mental health she needs to set boundaries between us." So this isn't her first time round, being seriously worried about you because of some bloke, then? "I told her I need to live my own life and I’m sorry she feels they way. She reiterated that she wasn’t controlling my life but if I decide to stay with him our relationship will be impacted." SOCIOPATH'S ISOLATION CAMPAIGN, PART ONE, COMPLETE. Wakey-wakey, MTF, wakey-wakey. I repeat: SOCIOPATH'S ISOLATION CAMPAIGN, PART ONE, COMPLETE! He has started de-constructing your life and happiness. Driven a wedge between you and what should be your most secure, most for-life-guaranteed relationship! A normal-healthy bloke would be already *enhancing* it. ******What are you doing?***** "So I told he he’d be here last night until tomorrow and she called me in the afternoon to catch up but o didn’t hear from her after that which is very unusual. I feel bad but I need to hold firm not just for now but for any future partners I may have that she may not like." I'll bet you DO! BOTH OF YOU! (Or all three if we include son-in-law.) So (re. above question)...this definitely *isn't* the first time she's felt she's had to object and warn you over a bloke, then. Correct? How many times - if any - did she get proven right all along? Or is this the first time she's objected, and what you're saying is, you want to hold firm so that you don't set a future precedence in-case it happens a second time?

Best you read this: ((my comments)) and asterisks... _________________________________________________________________________________________________ https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog/mood-microbe/201905/dont-let-narcissists-ruin-your-health By narcissist, I mean those who are so hopped up on their own ego that they feel entitled to exploit anyone in their orbit. Don't confuse it with self-confidence — narcissists are typically insecure and require affirmation; **they need to control you**. As Peggy Drexler writes: "There is a simple difference between high self-esteem and narcissism. Those with high self-esteem use their confidence as a tool to forge relationships. True narcissists couldn't care less. They don’t want relationships. They want an entourage..." ((Repeat - and ref what I explained earlier in this thread - AN ENTOURAGE (and Harem).)) ((Repeat - "Those with high self-esteem use their confidence as a tool to ***forge*** relationships". Forge/enhance. Including with your people...your help and support network.)) Narcissists will try to separate you from supportive friends — the ones who are warning you about this lopsided relationship. ((THE ONES WHO ARE WARNING YOU ABOUT THIS LOPSIDED RELATIONSHIP)) In order to elevate themselves, narcissists need to lower your own self-esteem and gaslight you into doubting your sanity. Are you looking for sympathy? Don't look to a narcissist. Sympathy is what they are expecting from you. Life with a narcissist can be extremely stressful, leading to depression or anxiety. It can also make you physically sick. You may feel it in the pit of your stomach. This isn't surprising, as stress and dismay are often coupled with a gut disturbance. There's a good reason for this: Your brain is intimately connected to the trillions of microbes in your gut, called your microbiota. Research over the past decade has shown that there are multiple links between these microbes and your brain. Amazingly—and disconcertingly—your microbes can talk to your brain in a language it understands: neurotransmitters, the chemicals in your brain that allow one nerve cell to talk to another. Neurotransmitters like serotonin or dopamine are the traditional targets of drugs that treat depression and anxiety. Mouse studies have shown that stressing a mouse alters its gut microbiota. For this research, mice are placed in a cage with a bigger bully mouse, who intimidates and pushes them around a bit before the researcher pulls them out. ***After a few days of this***, they become depressed and anxious. Their gut bacteria change, and the mice suffer chronic systemic inflammation. This is called social defeat stress, and it makes them miserable. If you feel sorry for these mice, then you know what your friends are feeling about you. ((Repeat: If you feel sorry for these mice, then you know what your friends are feeling about you.)) The gut-brain communication involves the vagus nerve that runs from your intestines to your brain stem. It's bidirectional: Your brain can talk back. Stress can immediately signal your gut to tone down its immune response. Evolution has led to this simple survival circuit: If you're being chased by a tiger, you can ignore your upset stomach. Your body needs all the vigor it can muster to run, and it sucks up the energy of your immune system to get it. That's totally reasonable when avoiding a tiger; you either escape after a few scary minutes, or you become lunch. Given the alternative, a short pause in fighting microbes is no big deal. But modern life presents us with something that we aren't well-adapted for: chronic stress. The longer a narcissist dominates your life, the more stress you suffer. Stress can sometimes snuff the fires of immunity for so long that pathogens can sneak into your bloodstream, making you septic. This can simmer for months, or even years, as low-grade inflammation can flare up in a surprising number of ways, including arthritis, depression, IBD, IBS, psoriasis, headaches, fatigue, and allergies ((...hair loss, skin rashes/Urtacaria ("Hives") or boils, upset hormonal system, joint aches.........Fibromyalgia......Cancer... It's a long list.)) A stressed brain can negatively affect your gut microbes, making you queasy and increasing your mental stress, creating a nasty feedback loop. The narcissist in your life is at the center of this soul-sapping cycle. No matter how empathetic and loving you are, you are unlikely to change them. That's a job for a professional, although good luck getting them there. It's hard to help someone who thinks you are the problem, not them. If you are feeling stifled or depressed, your best bet may be to dump the narcissist. As Melanie Greenberg points out, the narcissist "can reel you in, frantically romance you... ((...or just present as a Gentleman, a better grade than your past Dates, and the best you could ever get (not))). ...devour you, and spit you out in a heartbeat. If you are beautiful and insecure or a 'giver' (!!) in relationships, you are a prime target. So how do you avoid the bait? The key is to identify them early and make a quick exit." That’s tricky if they are your boss or parent, but try to distance yourself or put up walls as much as you can. Narcissists expend a lot of energy on manipulating you, and they won't go away easily, but stand up for yourself. Enlist your friends for support. A better world awaits! __________________________________________________________________________________________________ 'Speaking' of friends: How are things going with your friends and other relatives, since you met him? Have you had the time (or headspace) to maintain and nurture them? How's your son? Is he still getting his rightful attention or can you detect resentment in him, too (e.g. being lippy)? ******************* I repeat: He has barely been lifting a finger in terms of trying to make you feel safe, secure, wanted for yourself, respected, loved and appreciated, etc. He lately has been newly lifting a finger only because you showed he was in danger of losing 'you'. Doesn't want you. Just needs you (and probably resents you for that...it's what all Narcs do). Equals: just doesn't want anyone else (man) to have you. Wholly to-script. Now we watch him continue for a bit to work towards making HIMSELF feel safe (you hooked back into the game), whereupon he'll revert to bad and emotionally neglectful behaviour. Question: who or what convinced you that you couldn't have a gentleman of a boyfriend AND whom your daughter and family love?

In case it is your gut - the above article continues... _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Certain bacteria, like those in kraut or yogurt, can improve your mood by competing with pathogens for resources or killing them outright. These have been dubbed psychobiotics by two Irish scientists, John Cryan and Ted Dinan, who have pioneered this intriguing research. Try fermented foods, but make sure they have active cultures. Add fiber to your diet. Fiber conjures images of tree bark, but it really refers to complex sugars that feed the microbial menagerie in your gut. Fiber is found in veggies like onions, asparagus, artichokes, and leafy greens. Try prebiotic supplements. Prebiotics are concentrated fiber, and they can do a lot to boost your good psychobiotic bacteria. Get some exercise. Exercise improves the balance of your gut microbes. A great exercise is to push yourself away from narcissists. Narcissists can leave psychic scars that take time to work through, but your gut health is under your control. Get on top of it, and you will get better sooner rather than later. And now that you know what the drill is, tell the narcissists in your life to take a hike. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

PS: Please answer every single one of my questions this time, so that I can help and advise you more effectively. And this has just got more serious. I realise what YOU want: a more lighthearted, easy-to-run relationship, pleasant, fun company...taken to nice places...someone to take the edge off the gap(s) in your life - as a stepstool to your setting about filling the rest. But you're not with a 'man' that wants "a relationship". So you're NOT going to get what you want with him. And no amount of pulling him up on stuff, and ultimatums, are going to work - bar for a few weeks or months. "Groundhog Day", some describe a fauxlationship with. Or the Sweet-Mean-Sweet-Mean cycle of Abuse. It comes round again. And again. And again. He is wearing you down and your 'body-brain' is showing you. Doesn't matter if normally, e.g. at work, you're used to getting things done and sorted, and self-asserting, simply and efficiently. That's in NORMAL World. You're on his territory now. LaLa Land. Nothing you do in Normal World works down that rabbit-hole. It gets you any degree of the opposite. He's going to get what HE wants. Unless you start conversing properly with me. Understand?

(PS: Forgot to add: "Alternatively, does he make sense when you're in his company, but, later on or even days later, you can't quite remember or can't quote whatever it is he said and how he phrased it? (Remember, it's now proven that their speech patterns and tone, confidence of delivery, etc., have a hypnotic effect in-person or on the phone. Hence, when those aren't present, the 'speech' no longer makes sense or, as I say, is too elusive to re-construct into a complete sentance or paragraph.)" OR it's because your mind is to whatever degree too healthy for the hidden drivel to slip past it, and goes, 'That's nonsense - I'm not storing THAT, EW!' and chucks it straight in its 'office bin'...hence you can't find it in your filing system to recall or just simply repeat/quote what they said or how they said it, into one, comprehensible sentance or string of. It WAS nonsense/Word Salad, but said with the confidence, body-language, timing, rate and tone, etc., as normally accompanies SENSE. It SOUNDED legit. But (if you'd written it down) reads as nonsense. Diff/all the diff. Y)

(Sorry - misfire!) (You need to start keeping a daily diary and, THE MINUTE you get home, write down anything he said/indicated/implied in response to any question or request for repetition or clarification. Here or in a secret pad. IT'S VITAL NOW.)

PS: I know how you can reassure and get your daughter back on-board. There's no need to be so 'polar', the pair of you. No need at all. Plus, you two had no problems before he came onto your scene. Let's sabotage his Isolation campaign & ambient effect Pt 1. Without his knowing a thing beyond the now: that you and she are safely separated, no longer talking. Want to?

(...Unless he's bloody reading this. COULD HE BE? - please answer this time, at the same time as the above question.)

As always good advice! My daughter has had concerns with almost all of my prior relationships except one where we only saw each one day a week. The others wanted to move in so she got freaked even though I never mentioned it specifically to her. She has been somewhat right (not totally in my opinion) about prior guys but again I feel I need to make this the opportunity to avoid her getting so involved with my social life.

She's been somewhat right, despite not totally. But you're saying - to avoid her getting so involved with your social life. With your SOCIAL life? Surely you mean, with your Safety and Welfare? Because you're her mother and she cares? Or are you trying to tell me she's always been a bossy controller? But, then, if that were behind it - how come history's shown you she's been *just 'not TOTALLY'* right. How does that work? Anyway, other than that, I'll give you the time and space to go into more and greater detail on all of today's questions - so that I don't have to keep asking question after question. Again, you need to be more expansive please (you're totally anonymous). You've been a bit like, Trying to get blood out of a stone....and - I ain't your daughter ;).

Wait up - just noticed.... interim comment extended: "where we only saw each one day a week." Because that's the rate of the HEALTHY relationship. Your daughter knows all about narcissism, narcissistic sociopathy, and psychopathy, doesn't she. (Course. Her more assertive and self/other-protective generation will have.)

MTF, any update? Want me to keep this thread 'live' for a while, just in case?

Hi there. My boyfriend took me away in a 10 day vaca on riverboat. We are getting along great and my daughter is still hassling me to break up as soon as we return. I don’t feel that way and still prefer to play it by ear. My boyfriends son wedding is early September and I don’t think I’ll do anything until that’s over. In the interim I have to go for a biopsy in 10 days which my daughter doesn’t know about yet and pray she backs off until I know the results which I’ll share with her at that time.

Biopsy???? ************* No, I get it. On the one hand, he SEEMS to have learned his lesson and changed his ways. However, on the other, his ways were a bit too worryingly extreme and abormal (including trying to rush you - the biggest Red Flag there is). Which one is the real guy? Time will tell. As long as you're proceeding with caution aka playing it by ear, you'll stay safe. However (sorry - this is LaLa Land for ya)... re our suspicion that he IS "NIffy" (narcissistically iffy - spread it around for me?), that will include aforementioned Predator Senses. If this is the case, then, for as long as he can tell you're continuing to be on your guard he'll keep UP this good face (unless you keep it up for so long, you hit the point where he can no longer hold his mask on and 'spills out' again). You'd have to GENUINELY relax for him to feel safe enough to start misbehaving again, possibly in a different way, possibly not. (Honestly, they're like nightmare toddlers.) The third alternative would be his getting himself a potential replacement that he'd keep at 'ready' warmth on the side. The other problem is that, I can't be so irresponsible as to not forewarn you of all of this and yet at the same time, forewarning you isn't exactly conducive to you relaxing. Rock & Hard Place. Unless you're a superb actress and are used to keeping your true feelings, more than guarded - compartmentalised? RSvP ma cherie. **************** I've noticed a pattern in you, just thought you'd like to know? You tend to fail to disclose 'until x', whereby, the failure to disclose actually gets you the very situation you were trying to avoid. Specifically, here, we have daughter being on your case. . Whereas if you DID tell her you've a biopsy coming up, she (if she's thinking straight at the moment) would *naturally* give you space and peace. Wouldn't you prefer to be Preventative than aim for Curative but beat yourself to it by creating a negative self-fulfulling prosphesy? It's just, you seem to logical otherwise. Saying that, I'm bearing in mind that you might not be thinking straight yourself at the mo, understandably with that Sword of Damocles waving around over your head? In all relationships, any 'partner', as soon as they know it, has a duty to share with their partner all the latest emotional information by which to emotionally protect themselves. E.g. your daughter might NEED that 'steeling herself' time. And she may wish to support you. You surely don't want to ADD to her resentment and frustration at you by causing a scenario where she (some could say) justifiably reproaches you for not having told her sooner. Fore-knowing also usually results in the child slamming on the Nagging-breaks and proceeding with kid gloves; but it's no bad thing to remind someone that you're not as tough as old boots in EVERY aspect from EVERY angle - no-one is. IOW, this is 'god-given' opportunity to improve your current relations with your daughter (or Oughta as I've secretly nicknamed her). Use it or lose it? ***************** Sounds serious if you 'don't want to worry her'. (But like I say: the choice is, worry her for 10 days or add to her vexation with you. (Insert Countdown music, lol) Thoughts?

Makes sense. She also has been away and has a test also next week she is anxious about since she’s having fertility issues. So the choice was worry her more and ruin her time away or wait until we are both back from our trips.

"she’s having fertility issues" Oh, CRIKEY, no wonder, then! Her time away? Oh, that changes everything! No, if she's going on holiday, definitely DON'T tell her, not until she returns. Sorry, you didn't mention that bit. *********** So is it a serious biopsy or would you rather not say? Does bf know?

Do you think maybe she's having fertility issues due to too much stress? Eg. how's her job if she has one? How recently was it that she moved so far away from you, to all the way over to Florida? And why did they?

Biopsy of thyroid nodule She moved to Florida because they live climate and more laid back

Please keep me posted? Just the weather and culture, then.

Will do thanks. I just returned home and she is already on me about why I am not breaking up with him today! A day before my birthday and not even one day back from my trip

What exactly is she saying? And why is she so dead-set against you playing things by-ear? Does she think he could be dangerous? What?

It’s just her persistence. I once told her I’d go on the trip first before breaking up so she assumed I meant the day I returned from the trip.

Right. Hardly realistic. But my question was, with what does she justify her degree of anathema towards him. What are all the things she dislikes and finds iffy?

I mean, is her giant disapproval based solely on what she personally has seen for herself or additionally on what you've been telling her all along? Or both?

(Just bumping you up to keep your thread from closing while you're still test-driving him)

Hi there. I have had some family issues not involving my boyfriend too complex to describe here. For now I’m just staying put since his sons wedding is coming up in a few weeks and then I’ll take it from there but I still have my eyes wide open when it comes to my boyfriend.

Yes, I know you do. Well - wide open ENOUGH. Certainly more quickly than most. Probably still widening. I just didn't want your thread to close in the meantime. Not that I and everyone wouldn't welcome even the odd snippet of an update, if you you find you have 5 mins, but - no pressure. :) PS: I'm giving you permission to beat me to it and 'bump it up' yourself here and there to keep it from auto-closing, if you like. You have to type a sentance so just copy/paste in this each time: *Just bumping up my thread with the permission of the Moderator*

Will give update in next few days. While he’s been more considerate he’s already ousting again the new home search ever through his lease doesn’t end until the end of next April.

I had to go to my daughters out of state because she just endured a third miscarriage and had to undergo a procedure for it. My boyfriend was aware of this but he sent me 6 emails since yesterday about new homes. He also knew I was looking at a few places today to rent near my daughter for a few months this winter but he never asked anything about it. Instead I’m getting the unsolicited emails from him about the new home search he decided to do this weekend. Seems to me he’s once again not tuned into to anything important to me. Am I imagining this?

I'll go into this properly tomorrow after responding to DoggyDilemma, but, meantime, to help stop that horrid head-spin: "Seems to me he’s once again not tuned into to anything important to me. Am I imagining this?" NOPE! Sadly...NO. Not One Bit. And it's not you. It's nothing to do with you. He'd be the exact same with Angelina Jolie! It's NPD-AsPD. It's in the script. This or uncannily similar is happening to other women as we speak! This is what it's like! It makes you feel YOU must be mad (- mainly because even that horrid idea is preferable to the weird reality sat in your face right now which you've got to accept as real and add to My Understanding Of The World... a mind corruption that your healthy, working brain isn't straight-wired for and takes mental gymnastics to not only understand but KEEP understanding (because your mind wants to reject it). The promise to behave, was your typical Hoovering attempt. It's what they do! YOUR BOYFRIEND IS A LOON WITH ACTING SKILLS. Berbom. Shocking, heartbreaking...everything-ing, isn't it.... It usually gets a lot worse, though. This is still 'tip of iceberg' stuff. Methinks it would do you the power of good if you re-read this thread between you and I, from the beginning, now that you know you DO have the true-coloured torchlight. See what sticks out to you this time...what you'd thought you'd understood/appreciated already but now comes into sharper, clearer vision...or what escaped your attention earlier on. It'll sort that Cognitive Dissonance out.

Your poor girl. It is perfectly normal and common for the body to do a number of practise-runs before producing the real McCoy, and can lead to an amazing 'final product', a real lottery win of a babbie, but it never feels like it at the time when you can't think straight through the huge heartbreak. That's where Mum comes in.

Re BoyFiend: That title is now official, undeniable, too much evidence, will just get worse and worse if you keep him a third time - okay? Every time you fail to leave them, they grow bigger/worse, remember? Feeding The Monster. You can't win this one. Can't even improve it. He literally has NO INTEREST in you as a person, just a cash cow with legs that he aims to shove in a pen and over-milk. He wants to join (your) finances, that's all. Then get you behind closed doors and steal and use-up everything fyou ever owned. Including your mental welfare (leave them in a terrible state and no-one will believe them...for starters, they won't be able to make head nor tail of what she's saying for the fact she'll be a dribbling, hysterical wreck....and worse and worse....) What do you want to do? His having a guest on his arm at his son's wedding ("look everyone, I've got a girlfriend, I'm just like you lot!" and "up yours, ex-wife!") is not your problem. Not your problem. You are not his tool. Now DOUBLY not your problem, thanks to this latest reversion/removing of his mask...which I was waiting for (and deeper down, you too). Were it me, I would start by blocking his email. And if he has the audacity to ask why, you just say: 'You KNOW why. And if you don't - ask a therapist'. Then block-block-block. Or say nothing before you block him (and not answer the door), just - POOF! - from his life. Third option is, write him a Dear John beforehand so that he CAN'T come knocking, claiming not to understaaaaand, mew-mew, playing his little pretend-violin. And then get to Florida. Stay with daughter and book a nearby rental from there. I'd do it because my daughter needed me. But 'while I was down there', I would use the situation as a very, very helpful distraction and detachment aid to get over 'him' (what you'd thought and been convinced he was, both, as well as could be and what your future looked like), undisturbed and with too much other stuff to think about and deal with. She won't feel like housework because that's 'maintaining the nest'. She won't feel like much full-stop. Just crying, sleeping, moping....grieving. Probably for 3 months (the worst of it). And then I'd look at buying there. I mean...if you stand back - can you really not see all the signposts pointing to it? Including the clash of timing in his dropping his second-chance act right when your daughter hits a trauma? I can. :)

PS: Forgot to add last night: It's happening, all over, to men as well!

Anyway, the reaosn he's so OBVIOUS with his madness is because he doesn't have a script for dealing with you. His past gfs have said Yes to moving-in, first time (ask or nag) round. Because he has no script for this place, this stage, he's just letting more time pass in which - he hopes - attachment to and reliace on him will increase. Then (now) tries the exact same tool in the exact same way all over again. He has no move beyond, "Oh, darling - I'd love us to move-in together!". This is why Narc relationships are described as being like Groundhog Day. He's thinking you just need to be more hooked (and dizzy with love) (ugh)...And then you'll finally give-in ("yes, okay, fine!"). Right now, he's doing the tactic called, "Hitting you when you're down" (and distracted) - this case, by your daughter and SIL's and your own loss and grief. Meaning, what we consider inappropriate timing, to him is considered, perfect timing....striking while the iron is hot. Seeing it? See this: I'm not saying you aren't aware that he's iffy. But you aren't well-versed enough in his psychological and emotional disturbances. So when you describe him in your terms, i.e. through the normal-guy-just-not-at-the-moment lens, his behaviour and its timing doesn't make rational sense, won't gel or fit. When I describe him in NPD-AsPD terms, it ALL makes sense, ALL gels and ALL fits. And that's why I knew he would just fake improvement - meanwhile increasing the 'wooing' (social events) - then wait.......take full advantage of any opportunity LIKE THIS TRAUMATIC EVENT...and BAM: recommence Mission Inveiglement Into Entrapment. It's all he cares about. Oh, and said 'looking-good (and normal and functional) at the wedding' nonsense. Yeah, you're also his duping tool...serious scamming tool would have come next. Just making sure you don't swing back to keeping him until the stupid wedding. At the very least, he's an Undateable...can't do relationships. You need to accept it now. He's a cripple but where his disability hurts only others around him, starting with you. Know this: you're more over your grief and adjustment now, compared to when you met this guy. You're not you back then, who was lonely. You'll attract more male attention now (after a good break from dating) than you did back then. But only if you kick him out of your 'partner seat' so that the nice-normals can see you're genuinely available.

Re-posting this extract from March 20th: ((double parentheses mine) http://www.sociopathworld.com/2008/10/how-to-break-up-with-sociopath.html "How to break up with a sociopath ...The truth is that you and your sociopath have formed a symbiotic relationship. You may think you owe him nothing, but the relationship matters to the sociopath in ways you cannot guess or understand ((you can now!)). You may think the sociopath respects your boundaries ((you know he doesn't now!)), but the sociopath will not be sympathetic to your assertions of your needs ((as you yourself have just fedback is happening all over again, this time, your family trauma)). The sociopath does not have or respect boundaries. The sociopath has his needs, too, and will fight to make sure that they are met. You do not want to get into an all-out fight with a sociopath when the sociopath feels like his survival is threatened. You will lose. With a sociopath, the best thing to do is to make the breakup seem like it was his or her choice. Like with ticks or other parasites, you want to poison the well so the sociopath willingly leaves. Become a helpless, emotionless, reactionless burden. Start being contrary, without being openly defiant. If the sociopath likes to go out, develop a preference for staying in. Stop bathing. Focus on work. Pretend you're tired, sick, depressed, say you forgot your keys, you forgot to feed the goldfish, be incompetent but make everything seem like an accident. If the sociopath gets mad, say sorry, but don't fight back. Say "I don't know what's come over me." Have long phone conversations with your mother or other people the sociopath hates. In general, let yourself go completely and be as intolerable to live with as possible without being confrontational. This may seem very passive-aggressive, but after about three months (give or take), the sociopath will be out of your life. You should be in the clear after your sociopath has been gone three to six months. By that time the sociopath will not need you to satisfy any of his basic needs, and will see you instead for what you really are ((by his warped estimation)) --probably a weak-willed whining sissy. Think this is unnecessarily complicated and time-intensive? I suggest you watch Sleeping with the Enemy and let me know if you think there are better alternatives."" You COULD just tell him it's Over and then batten down all hatches for a decent period (meaning, doubled). Reckon he's not the violent type. But what still makes him dangerous is this: When you tried last time to dump him, you were resolute. You went into his flat and came out....still his girlfriend. He Hoovered you - using Future Faking and a grand gesture (that isn't so grand compared to what he could siphon then run off with of your wealth/assets). His will won over yours. Do you think this time you could stay staunch when face-to-face or just in the same room as him? Question: on what basis? I think, guillotine from a safe distance, or said Grey Rock (although that means, not just maintaining statis but this time actually, actively, deliberately, concertedly, shuffling away from him by shuffling him away). OR you can do the whole warped merry-go-round a third time. What say you, Gunga Din?

I’m just trying to get past his sons wedding and once that’s behind me I look forward to being rid of him. I’ll miss the company but at least I don’t need to be upset or aggravated by his selfishness and lack of consideration.

Hi again! Help everyone understand: Why is this wedding so important to you? Not, to him. We know that. But - to YOU? Why are you prepared to keep tolerating him despite you look forward to being rid of him, for the sake of this wedding? Do you love a good wedding that much? Or are you hoping to get chatted up by someone nicer? Someone who's attending owes you a Tenner? What? ******* "I don’t need to be upset or aggravated by his selfishness and lack of consideration" EXACTLY. You deserve a relationship with someone you fancy, who's good company, but that DOESN'T bring that kind of unfixable, self-esteem-chipping crap and nonsense to the table. Because it does damage silently, furtively...can take bloody years off you (despite you can get those back if you give up on the corrupted idiot this early-on...like ciggies). Doesn't matter whether you fancy the person or not. Just...being in the presence and company of someone who's supposed to care about how you feel, how you are, but clearly doesn't, not one iota, is bad for you. It disturbs you. It's disturbing. He's disturbed. Eezanutter. LOL

Hey - MTF! Someone else here is dating your BoyFiend's 'twin brother', look!... https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13523/Should-i-believe-my-boyfriend-or-is-he-just-possessive#jumptobottom