Proposal ultimatum / am I overthinking / or in toxic relationship?

Hi, So I've been in a relationship for 3.5 years. Upa and downs of course. Though for a while now I've been feeling trapped/ stressed, so been doing research and I don't think I am respected and maybe with someone with a narcissistic tendencies. I feel I have been love bombed and then screamed at. My needs have not been met for the last few years, loads of little things that I've asked for help with,asked for changes and it's future faking with promises that never came. 95% of the time she gets her way, I have been shut down, her mother barely acknowledges me as part of the relationship and tries to take over. I've been screamed at for not proposing multiple times in the past, due to working away, however I did agree by the end of the year after being given an ultimatum to do so or leave. So just before Christmas we had a hard conversation in which I said I am not ready to propose for a few reasons, I can't get over the way she has treated me in the past (not that I said this but I feel trauma bonded), all the empty promises. So agreed by the end of the year and did so on NYE ( after hours of panic shopping for a ring). Part of the discussion was that we didn't need to plan/ book anything for the wedding but it would progress the relationship and give a chance to fix and work through things. I'm now looking at a wedding venue 2 months prior to the agreed date to start looking and it's been only a month. Only a few things have been honoured that discussed, for example her helping to cook, this has been a on going issue as no matter how tired I am I still have to do it and haven't had help for years, she has cooked maybe 5 times since Nye which is more than the previous few months. She promised to not hold resentment for the ultimatum and that it took longer than she wanted for me to propose, though has thrown it out as a passive aggressive comment during a disagreement. I'm not perfect and there are things I need to work on too for example I need to validate feelings, however I shut down when screamed at and react. I really need some help as I am panicking about progressing with the wedding, but she will be crushed if I want to hold off and will most likely leave. I am very avoidant personality type, but feel like I am going through motions, and have major anxiety about this situation. Thank you in advance for any advice.

You never once mentioned your love for her in your post; you haven't indicated if you guys share values & goals & what attracted you to her in the first place? People in love always share with others what's good about their relationship even when they go pear shaped. Ask yourself just what keeps you with this woman? Is it her mother ignoring you? Is it the screaming at you & her immature demands? Do you like being 'kicked around' by a bullying individual who happens to be your partner of 3.5 years? & she will never work through your relationship issues if she causes them. Why would you race around to buy a ring & get married just to keep her happy when she's already knocked you down & trod on you repeatedly. You're either a glutton for punishment or you can't see the forest for the trees. Who cares if this woman is a narcissist or whatever, it's come to the stage now that your gut is screaming at you that your relationship IS a toxic farce because you let it be one. You have made the choice to be with someone who disrespects you badly & basically exploits you daily. Her promises to you mean bloody nothing because she's loyal to herself & no one else...no one. People like your partner will always find another poor soul to manipulate & control but you don't have to ruin your life by hanging around to cop more abuse. Stop your panicking & take control of your life because you deserve to be happy & you deserve to be respected as all of us do when in a loving & sharing relationship. Be kind to yourself...get out & never look back, ever.

Thank you for you're response. She does of course have good qualities,she really understands and helps my mental health and supports me a lot through that. She has finally taken on board some of what I said and I have seen a change, after I have proposed, which she kept saying "I'll do these things when you propose. I keep having severe panic attacks about all this and the wedding as we have now booked a venue, no money spent yet, but due tomorrow. I asked if we needed to book but she said it had to be there and on a specific date. I had a panic attack about the amount of money it would cost as I think it is too much, she is willing to spend more to have what she wants and is not forcing me to pay more necessary. We spoke earlier and she calmed me down but when I'm in my own head I panic and need to be convinced to go through with it. I can't sleep, I can't break her heart but I cannot get over the numb feeling and the length of time my needs where not met before I had to propose to get her to listen. I don't know what to do we can pay a deposit and gives me a week to seek professional help. Through cognitive behaviour therapy. More recently she has said she doesn't want me talking about the relationship outside of It like to friends and stuff as they may have a bias, though she also doesn't talk outside the relationship to be fair, I have convinced her that I need to be able to do that, because of my mental health problems I need to ask other couples questions and make sure it's not me making mountains out of mole hills. I think you are right that my guy is telling me something, but I am racked with guilt. Thank you

'when someone shows you who they really are, you best believe them'... is some of the finest advice on offer. Listen to your gut, it's talking to you & forget your guilt which has come from your partner screaming at you for 3.5 years about not meeting her standards. You need to ask yourself just what values & standards you guys share & what about goals? Do you really want & need to get married to a woman who controls you? Of course she doesn't want you talking to others because she wants to isolate you from your friends etc - it's typical behaviour of a controller.

Agree entirely, and - "I'll do these things when you propose." Woah. Yes, that is Narcissistic thinking, and to a fairly concerning degree. Twisted a full 180 Degrees. A normal-healthy would see it as the opposite: My partner has this/that complaint, whilst I have this/that about him - let's both fix and elevate the relationship thus put the willingness back in. Whereas, SHE sees it this way: I'm not going to cease beh<ving in ways that actually kick the love out of you, you have to just pretend I haven't and commit to me anyway, whilst ceasing irritating me by being you and what comes naturally. See it? It won't get better. It never gets better. It gets worse and worse. So - NOOOO, would be my advice. Why would ANYONE want to commit to that pervasive pattern of abusive treatment in their life? So WHAT if she has good days? They all do. But after a while (drip-drip), the bad chasmically outweighs the good and you feel nothing but hated and held in contempt, making it the opposite of a love relationship. Right now, though (because your emotions have a lot of catching up to do), I'd be insisting on couples counselling first. Just to see if she cooperated or managed to gaslight the therapist.

And anyway - what kind of woman would want to have to pressgang her partner into marrying her? Think about what it says on BOTH sides. Normal, healthy women wouldn't. But then, normal-healthy women wouldn't kick the love out of you in the first place; they'd 99% keep cuddling it into you.

PS: The male Narcs or overly narcissistic males scream at you as well. Sooo ridiculous and inappropriate and yet at the same time, so disturbing, so 'unreal'. Yeesh, don't get me started.

Here's something important and often overlooked, though: Let's say they cause an argument, which they make as traumatic for you as possible - every other Saturday night. Aww, that's not so baaad? Yes it is. It is when you remember to take into account that after a traumatic "argument" you can find it takes you a whole week to recover. NOW do the Maths. On behalf of myself and all other past victim-survivors: PLEASE don't marry her. Ok?

Hi all, Thank you for the advice. I am giving it a chance and have booked a venue and am starting to pay towards the wedding. We do not have to pay much until April, so if things slip back into normal behaviour then I will have to call it I think. I have opened up a lot more and she has managed to calm me down and reassure me on the costs and that it doesn't have to be 50/50 that if she wants it to be more expensive then she will pay more towards it. I have given it a chance and myself some time to fully reflect on my decision and the relationship. Though I can't help but think you are exactly saying what my gut is telling me. I have been researching this sort of thing and have come across both sides of the arguments, apparently most marriages start with an ultimatum, but they also often build resentment. Thanks again for the help.

Does she normally follow-through with doing what she said she'd do? I thought one of the major problems is that she moreover, consistently doesn't. The real reason you're giving it another chance is because it feels too daunting and difficult to end it, so soon as all this, when you've only too recently started waking.up and actually realising (from your tolerance bucket having overflowed and the noise jolted you). On average, it takes the victim-partner of an abusive Narcissist seven whole times to leave AND STAY LEFT. Narcs don't end it with you. You must have wondered to yourself: How come if she hates me so much - or, put it this way - CAN hate me so much AND so frequently, she doesn't end our relationship....why does she go further and try to talk me out of it whenever I feel I've 'had it'? Have you researched that bit? They can hate you secretly all, or even just more than half, the time. But that won't make them end it. Because they still need you (google Primary Supply) for whatever perks, bonuses, conveniences, favours, unwitting manipulation-/impressions-management tool (e.g. respectability by-association), for-free. It doesn't bother them if they hate you. They don't care, they just want to feel superior to you and use you, and take their ever-self-generating bad/weird moods out on you as their personal dumping-ground/toxins toilet. (BTW, what does she get for-free because of you? Or alternatively, if she's a straight Covert, what financial dependence has she allowed you to grow on her or, even encouraged, whereby now if you do leave you'll be the one left worse-off?) So to-date, how many times, do you think, have you felt you actually wanted to end it? But, saying that: I do get that you're still under her and the 'relationship's' influence as keeps you in Cognitive Dissonance (she loves me, she loves me not, she hates me, no, it's fine she loves me...). It's very bad for your brain, though, so I'm glad you're reapproaching this last chance saloon, wearing your white coat, clipboard and pen....putting her on probation and watching her like a ruddy hawk for one more distinctly Narcy move. And meanwhile, you get to buy yourself time to keep getting your head around all of this - frankly, truthfully - MADNESS...that shouldn't exist. Good on ya, that's excellent thinking and shows you're not "too soft" or any of that crap. Just dizzy (reminds me: google Narcissist Victim - F.O.G). Keep studying. Also research about how healthy, mature (rational) adults do things, including would never dream of doing/behaving. There will be a deeper-down, contributory factor as to why you're in two minds over ending this 'relationship', though. Feeling like you had to pick a bit beneath you because X. It can be as simple as, Because I'm a smoker. Or because I've got a big scar on my bum. Anything. It can even be, too many toxics having told you you were a shite bf and you concluding that they can't all be wrong, despite they were over-demanding, controlling wotsits as well. Have a thinkipoos just in-case there's something down there hiding from you...maybe even from past treatment and attitudes, like schoolfriends...siblings... (PS: If you're not wanting to reply again just yet, just post each month to say Hi or give a quite update/status report in order to keep this thread active for if/when you need it again. Doing so will top-up your confidence majorly as you rememmber that you have "secret weapons/shields" at your disposal. Like an Emergency Call Button.

Trouble is, though: what if she manages to keep her best (or angel) foot foward until the "I Do" and then suddenly feels finally safe and cocky to let it all hang out? I must admit, if it were me, I'd be the one ultimatum-ing (my right, through not being the childishly uncooperative trouble-maker and unfair/dirty fighter). I'd be saying, I clearly am not quite ready to get married per se so I'm going to need to delay the date by 6 months/whatever. I mean - if a couple are planning to spend the rest of their days together, and just want to be 'in the zone' rather than not, then, where's the fire anyway, what difference will another piddly 6 months make, compared to XX decades, day-in-day-out? A normal-healthy, non-overly narcissistic or actual NPD would rather you WERE ready than risk you blurting, I Don't, at the alter, just for the sake of another 6 piddly months of investment. One with insufficient investment, however, would be off. Because rushing the relationship, rushing intimacy via mostly just intensity/drama, hurriedly faking a bond from you to them, and basically rushing you all the way to the alter, is the biggest hallmark there is that you've got a malignant whose full a*se-spillage you simply have yet to see. If you can't manage this, then, you're going to have to try to set her hidden tests and challenges, to see what you get back and how normal/rational/healthy it is, or whether indicative of NPD traits and behaviours according to the expert websites. Getting married is easy. Getting out of one, not so much. But to a narc/Narc? Hell-on-a-stick. And that's if you even manage it. Those that do escape for-good are actually quite rare, still. And the poorer people are getting, thanks to Brexit/Covid/the world economic crisis, the harder it's getting. At least read up on how to handle a narcissistic spouse and see what you'd be signing-up for, yeh? Good luck, Soldier! (He's going over again). ;)

I'm not sure what demographic that statistic was based on - do you have the link? Meanwhile, I found this for you (and any lurkers in your same boat..... - lots, I imagine, if your statistic reference is up-to-date, jeez... what happened to 'start as you mean to go on', maturity, commonsense, hashing-out beliefs and rules even before getting engaged, all of that?, yeesh): ((my double-brackets and asterisks)) _____________________________________________________________________________________ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/do-marriage-ultimatums-work_n_5bc6789be4b0d38b5872bde0 Do Marriage Ultimatums Actually Work? Experts Weigh In. Telling your partner, "If we're not engaged by this date, we're done," might work. But is that really how you want to start your marriage? Last year, “Melanie” (not her real name) received a marriage proposal from “Jeff,” her boyfriend of seven years, that came with an ultimatum. Jeff had recently cheated on Melanie and then broken things off with her, but the two kept in contact because they had a big trip planned together the following month. Days before the trip, seemingly out of nowhere, Jeff popped the question to Melanie and gave her two choices: get married or cut off contact forever. Melanie told him she needed to think about it, especially given the recent rockiness in their relationship. “The way he did it made me feel so trapped,” she told HuffPost. “It made me cry inconsolably any time I was alone because he only gave me two options: marry him or not even be friends anymore. And he had been my best friend for nearly 20 years at this point.” For several months, they tried to make things work but ultimately called it quits earlier this year after Jeff became more and more controlling. Of course, not everyone who proposes a marriage ultimatum ― “If we’re not engaged or married by X date, we’re done” ― does so in such a blatantly manipulative manner. Some people are frustrated by a lack of forward momentum in the relationship and may feel that an ultimatum is their only choice (Spoiler alert: It’s not). Some people lack healthy communication skills and don’t know how else to get their point across. “Generally, ultimatums don’t yield a good outcome, but every situation is different,” psychologist and dating coach Samantha Rodman said. We asked marriage experts to explain why people issue marriage ultimatums, why they don’t typically work as intended and what to do instead. Why People Issue Marriage Ultimatums People who present their partner with a marriage ultimatum may do so in a misguided attempt to have their needs met in the relationship. They are caught between their desire to get married and their partner’s need for more time. But the way they go about it is what makes it problematic. “I think they want to respect their partner’s cold feet and want to give them the gift of time to make their decision,” psychologist Ryan Howes said. “But they also want to set a boundary to respect their own needs, so they set a date.” There may also be another more subconscious reason, according to Howes. Essentially, the person giving the ultimatum may be trying to avoid taking responsibility for their own life choices by giving all the decision-making power to their partner. “They want their partner to decide whether or not to propose because they haven’t taken stock of their own feelings about the relationship,” Howes said. In other words, the ultimatum comes from a place of doubt and forfeits the ultimatum-giver’s own agency. “The truly empowered person is aware of what they want and is able to ask for it,” Howes said. “This is the riskier option, but the more powerful one.” “Do you want to get married? Then how about telling your partner you’d like to get married and asking them what they want?” Howes suggested. “If they say no, or not right now, then the decision lies with you to stay or leave, knowing that the proposal may come in six months, or maybe never.” “The truly empowered person is aware of what they want and is able to ask for it,” Howes said. “This is the riskier option, but the more powerful one.” “Do you want to get married? Then how about telling your partner you’d like to get married and asking them what they want?” Howes suggested. “If they say no, or not right now, then the decision lies with you to stay or leave, knowing that the proposal may come in six months, or maybe never.” Then ask yourself if you’re willing to stick it out or not. “Do you want to wait? Yes? Then wait, and that’s your choice,” Howes said. “Do you want to leave and find someone else who is more certain? Then do that. Pushing your partner to make a decision is a way to sidestep your own power and decisiveness.” Why Ultimatums Don’t Work (At Least Not Well) Let’s say you tell your S.O. that if he or she doesn’t propose by next summer, you’re going to find someone who will. Hey, you might even scare or bully your partner into actually doing it. But is that really the way you want to start the next chapter of your relationship? “Nobody wants to feel threatened,” Rodman said. “However, again, if you are genuinely stating your boundaries and intentions, e.g. you want to get married before you’re 30 or you’re losing interest because of no marriage, then share those feelings with your partner.” And if your partner says no? “Be prepared to walk,” Rodman said. *****“Don’t use it as a manipulation tactic.”***** ******Howes said that if you feel giving an ultimatum is your only option, consider it a big red flag in the relationship. Marriage is about a lifetime of joint decision-making, discussions, debates and compromises. This is only the first of many big decisions that lie ahead.****** “If you are thinking of the ultimate power play of an ultimatum at the beginning of the relationship, how might that play out later on?” Howes said. “What if you disagree about kids, careers, money management, parenting, savings, and wills and trusts? Might it be better to work on clear communication and compromise from the very beginning than kick things off with a power play?” ******One point to highlight: There’s a big difference between standing up for what you want or need in a relationship and issuing an ultimatum. No one is asking you to sacrifice what’s truly important to you (in this case, marriage) ― it’s all a matter of how you express your needs.***** “If someone feels that they will genuinely move on if they don’t get married, then that is a truthful and honest thing to share,” Rodman said. “The ultimatum should not be fake, a threat you trot out but don’t mean.” And know that even if your partner does end up proposing, there may be lingering feelings of bitterness afterward. No one enjoys being backed into a corner. “Sometimes, I see a client who experienced this in their dating life, and they usually end up resenting it after the fact,” Rodman said. What To Do Instead The proper way to broach the subject is straightforward: State your case (“I’d like to be engaged by 33 because I want to be married before we start having kids”) and then ask your partner how they feel about it, Howes said. Listen to what they have to say and then decide for yourself if you’re willing to wait or if you need to move on. “I think the only discussion to have is, ‘I’d like to get married, would you?’” Howes said. “And when you hear the response, you make your own decision. Waiting for the other to determine your future is disempowering.” Get those notions of a totally surprise fairytale proposal out of your head. Your future together is something that should be discussed at length before you even think about getting engaged. If you or your partner are truly on the fence about what the future of the relationship looks like, it might be worth going to couples counseling to suss out your true feelings. “I would hope that a proposal is only a ceremonial formality to celebrate, and that the serious discussions about compatibility and desire and the future have been ongoing for some time,” Howes said. _____________________________________________________________________________________ ...Yuh. About "Deciding": deciding something that big (quitting an investment) (because it's LOSING you wealth, so to speak) is easily said - and not too difficultly done, by those caught merely in a union of significant Incompatibility. A Fauxlationship, on the other hand, where one partner is toxic and it's imperceptibly yet steadily becoming like they can barely tolerate you most of the time but are determined to keep keeping you in the game and bit-by-increasing-bit, SHOEHORNING, including (with your Malignant Coverts), HENPECKING you into the shape of person they actually want (i.e. a Submissive or downright Slave, Sychophant who dare not be anything less than utterly perfect in every single way thinkable, i.e. "Walking On Eggshells") - or just attacking you for daring to nicely state a request/complaint - this really erodes your confidence thus ability to make an at-the-time, *seemingly* too scary, potentally life-altering decision. So does the continuing pecking/tearing strips attempts:...Don't think that, don't do that, don't say that, don't ask me to do MY share of duties, "or else"....on and on and on. Even, I bet you're cheating on me!, when they know darn well you take pride in the fact you'd rather stick pins in your eyes.... (If you've THAT much to keep criticising me over, then clearly I'm not your One. And i certainly don't want to be yours or anyone's Constant Irritant that you "have to" put up with, when there are and have been too many others in my life that liked me just the way I am. So, off you go, then. Keys, please. :p) (Oh, you watch them panic and backpedal for all their worth when you try to say that pure logical! Out comes the, I didn't mean its...little realising that, that they could SAY AND GO TOO FAR, TOO OFTEN, AND EXPECT NO CONSEQUENCE, AND FEEL GREAT WHILE YOU FEEL DREADFUL, and too exhausted to talk any more, IS PRECISELY YOUR TOP PROBLEM WITH THEM, AARGH. It is SO GALLING when they're not fit to criticise you because they know nothing PLUS constantly do the bloody same type of thing themselves...oh, the gross hypocrisy...) The huge bond isn't any such thing. It's just your regular Addiction, this case, not to alcohol or Class A substances, but to the "trauma bonding with intermittent reinforcement (google), aka "narcissistic cycle of abuse"....lovely, horrid, lovely, horrid, sane, whacko, sane, whacko....repeat, repeat, repeat...one extreme to the other and in between time, drip-drip-chip-chip-peck-peck (Covert shaping and puppeteering). Plus the seemingly massive (rushed) investment and depth of involvement. And other obstructions and off-putters. You just have to do NPD Victim-style of Cold Turkey, and you're out and away. Aka No Contact...although I prefer to call it Zero Contact because then no sneaky victims can stretch the brief (yeah, but it was just a Facebook Like, I didn't saaay anything...that kind of nonsense). But the decider (once your head has had enough time to stop spinning and you realise the 'fear' of staying has become outweighed by that of leaving, because she's gone back on every promise or left everything barely done or started - aka you've met Your Line In The Sand - aka Abuse-Tolerance Bucket finally overflows) is this: Get out now/asap while it's even still do-able, grieve to get over them, which I've done before and didn't kill me -VERSUS- stay feeling this unloved, not-worth-valuing, abused, screeched at, too much of the time as devolves into all of the time, until my premature, dying day. No (short-term) Pain - No (long-term) Gain. Just know ahead - for that requisite confidence-boost - that you CAN do this. Getting away from someone abusive is never, ever, ever A Bad Move, A Regrettable Move, a Regretted Move. It's always the 'having stayed when I had my chance to get out' bit that they regret.)) I hope this is helping you to detach just the right amount, ergo, will feel less scared to call it quits if need be, ready for your Spocky observational experiment. And I want you to look back on people you used to look up to because they were admirable and empathetic....all those great, adult qualities. And compare her to them. You need to see or feel a contrast. This is another reason why they isolate you. With them now in your face all hours, this keeps you in a bubble and kind of echo chamber, whereby your mind starts to accept atrocious behaviour as the New Normal. That's why I suggested you study more on NORMAL, HEALTHY partnerships between equal, properly-matured humans ¡ who know they can only ever be equal to any other human on the planet.

Thank you again for the help. I have tried looking into counselling but am struggling to find any quickly. People are starting to book rooms now so feel pressure is building into this before I've had a chance to get to grips with our conversation before Christmas and everything feels like it's moving pretty fast. I can't help keep watching negative YouTube videos, about bad signs or abuse/ narcissism, it feels as though it's making me overthink. I guess I'm still waiting to see what happens but now it will effect other people. Thank you

Yes, that's the problem: finding a counsellor in too little time. So that's not an option regarding. Let's recap: It's palpably obvious to all, ABCD, that you are not in a place where you should commit the rest of your life to this person. BECAUSE of the recent "invasion of the body snatchers" (her increasingly showing the real her (not very nice) under her Great Gal mask)....because you identify her and her behaviour as aligning with NPD. You have to delay it NOW. Any more waiting and delaying will make everything so much worse. But that is no match for doing the honourable thing and deciding against...because your partner has changed too much from the person you WOULD have married. She's spoiled it. Not you. I had a similar, ridiculous statement from an ex-Narc. "Yooou said you wanted me holding your hand on your deathbed!". Answer: Yes. And then you went and ruined it all by changing personality on me....Shoulda thoughta that, shouldn't you - just count yourself lucky I can't report you to Advertising Standards! If she is not as advertised and test-driven, then you do not buy the lemon. I KNOW how it feels. It's incredibly daunting. You're going to need to have a long talk with your parents and get their help. This is one one nof those situations where, no matter how old one is, you need your mam and dad. They'll walk you through it all, I'm sure. Is that an option? Know this: In this situaton and context - being about to sign your life away to not just the wrong woman but the wrong type of human being : 'I'm Not Sure' is No, not Yes or Maybe. You DO NOT want to marry her. But you're scared you're about to set a bomb off. It won't. It happens a lot. (Rational) people (the type you'd want to keep) understand. And anyway, you can still do it in two sets of steps: if you insist the wedding be merely put on hold until you've visited a counsellor, then all the suppliers/caterers can be delayed (assuming you call them very soon, give them ample notice). If when you tell her, she kicks up a fuss (guaranteed), give her Option 2: we cancel it altogether. All it takes is saying it and feeling determined that it is your RIGHT to get your way on this. One Yes out of a panel of two is not a passed vote, it's a No. BOTH have to say yes. Also, make a point to ask her what her hurry is? And let her see you writing down her answer. Get HER worried and having to bend over. It's soo easy, honestly. You just have to have HAD IT! She obviously has some pressing need to get hitched, this case to you. She won't want the whole relationship ended, no way. She'll roll over. When she does - you KEEP that position of yours. Because the truth is this: without medication, the only way to manage a Narc is to DOMINATE ^THEM*. They don't mind that - they grew up with that. All they can do is Master or Slave. (You want and should expect, Equal Partners.) So it's one of their comfort zones. You can't do that forever though, it's exhausting and your life goes to sh*t. You need to watch Jo Frost Supernanny on YouTube - toddler training. Exact same principle. They push-and-push-and-push against the new (adult-sensible) rules and dynamic to get you to fold, exhausted, so they can reinstate the old regime. So you can't give them an INCH or they WILL take it. You have ALL the power. You just need to see how serious a mistake you'd be making. And SOD what anyone else thinks - this is YOUR life! They're not the ones would have to share a bloody house and bed with her, day-in-day-out, getting screeched at (and worse ny then). You don't want to end up a Battered Husband, mate, you really don't. It's too mind-ucking, especially for blokes. Anyway, we're still here for you if and for as long as you need us.

PS: Don't worry, you're not over-thinking. It's just your brain is very overloaded at the mo, there's not enough room to mentally multi-task. Try to sleep more, because your mental workings-out will get done for you. ...Just to cheer you up a bit - Reminds me of a joke: Confucius say, 'He who go to bed wiv big ploblem rill rake up in morning wiv solution in-hand'. (haha, sorry - gnaaaarf)

ALSO...it's clear she's a typical Narc - materialistic, hence wanting a flashy wedding (it's more sensible to save it to live on these days, and make it a Greek style wedding where guests just pin money to your suit and dress, rather than give you toasters and what-not, but anyway). Know Thy Patient. She'll be bribe-able. Use it or lose it. "I'll make you a deal. (and say it like this) After we've had a course of counselling - on the big day, I will pay for X (horse-drawn carriage?...limo?...something she's wanted for years (ie. five minutes)?" Can you think of anything? You CAN'T be your normal Honest self with a Narc. That's how they get ya! Lie and Future-Fake your pants off! (That's an order, soldier.) Seriously, all those that didn't manage to escape (and are even MORE miserable today!), it's because they refused to lie, even to a low-down, dirty type of narc. GET OVER YOURSELVES! :p Okay? Permission to Lie. :)

But, SURELY if you told your parents, they'd react, like, 'Jesus Christ - wish you'd told us earlier - no WAY can you go ahead! Thank GOD you told us in-time, though. Quick, I'll phone the florist, you phone the vicar, your dad can phone the (etc)!'. Doing The Right Thing in pulling-out for reasons of decency (conscientiousness) is bloody admirable. Ac-tually. And it wasn't even your decision, anyway. Ac-tually. And yeah, people could say: she's just another person, why would you have been too scared to speak your mind? We know, don't we. BECAUSE SHE'S A MON-STEEEEEEEEEEER WHO PLANS ON DRAGGING ME DOWN TO HEEEEELL!!! *ACTUALLY*.

Do you remember the first time you jumped off the highest diving-board at your local swimming-pool? You didn't have the luxury of time to ready yourself there, either, did you. You had to just go, ONE, TWO, THREE - JUMP! And afterwards, you felt SOOOOO MUCH BETTER! And then you thought: Tsk...what was I so worried about? Do you remember? The fear you feel is just a primitive reflex, not a Commentator, trying to tell you NOT to delay/pull out. The MINUTE you delay/cancel, you'll feel relief like you've never felt before! And you don't even have to feel guilty because - it wasn't YOU who changed for the intolerably worse, beyond all early-days recognition. Say it with me: SHE SHOULDA THOUGHTA THAT before she tricked her way into your heart. This is her consequence, not yours. But your opportunity. To save your own life.

Can`t stay away, look. Am taking on your pressure with you (tick-bloody-tock). So I've found you two magic pills. These two films, watched in order, will get your mind deciding and feeling full confidence in your, this time, very firm conviction...like this: 'No/Not Yet means No/Not Yet, and that is that. All I'm doing is being the realistic, sensible one for both of us - since you seem to live in some sort of Disney Film (despite we know that's not her problem, just her pretense, her cover-impression of a normal girlie-girlie) - so, you can hate me now but thank me later...I don't mind, I can wait'. (-haha, reference to delaying intended) See how at the same time, you're Future-Faking? - or giving yourself a get-out clause, if you prefer? You're saying, I'm not going anywhere, I just want things smoother and neater and a counsellor will be more than capable of showing us how...and then we'll be all snuggly and happy again, yay. And you're also getting to get BACK some denied ground... getting to re-start and re-do a large part of the bonding path over again, this time, slowly, leisurely, so that you can notice/hear/see EVERY malintentious act or attempt to get a leash around your neck again (stupid, arrogant little cow - doesn't she know as a man you could FAR more likely kill her, and it's only your gentlemanly self-containment that stands in your way? Soooooo arrogant. Seriously. That's why you mustn't let her think she can dominate and push/pressure you. All she's allowed to do is take you or leave you as a straight-backed male, not force you to bend over backwards until you end up as crippled as she secretly is. (Oh, yeah, she wants you to be a MINI-Her!) But anyway... ...Or even - Go ahead, punk, make my day. (ref Clint Eastwood). I'm telling you - if you are determined enough, she'll roll over. Like a beeping kitten. It'll be her manipulation tactic of a response, sure. But who cares. If as the only one of the pair of you who IS sane, sensible, intelligent, pragmatic, AND sensitive, etc., enough, then it ONLY makes sense that you waste no time in taking control of that ship and chart a safe course. Or else it will crash. No marriage will work on these present bases even IF your intended were a normal-healthy rather than, screechy-dominator! If you pelt her with all the very best, most adult-mature, sensible, logical, above-average intelligent reasons why SHE should want the delay for counselling JUST AS MUCH AS YOU, but she still (albeit placidly) resists - WHAT'S MENTALLY WRONG WITH *HER*, THEN?! ANSWERS, PLEASE! So if she doesn't - YOU'VE GOT HER. You'll know for sure-sure-sure she IS what you fear she is/has, indelibly, within her. Ta-daaaaaa! Good, aren't I. ;) It's called, been to La-La-Land Hell & Back. I would never suggest anything I hadn't already test-driven a number of times, successfully, myself. So......Do yourself a massive favour and watch these two films - this weekend preferably. And then let me know if you want tips for calmly-intimidating body lingo...for coming over as masterful and deadly serious ("Don' push meeee!") (name the film!). Let's give her someone SHE's never seen before, shall we? Let's shock HER for a change. Again, it's so piss-easy, you'll kick yourself. You won't adopt that position permanently though...it's not you, you're sane, well-intentioned and fair-minded, and two, as I say, it's exhausting/life's too short and doesn't have to be that complicated, upsetting and downright whacko. So at SOME point, you'll have to hand steering-wheel duty to her again (you have to sleep) and suffer the crud again/put your progress back OR finally decide to get off at the next port (and she can crash on her own or drag some other poor sap on-board). But let's not get ahead of ourselves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-HeV8Z6iXc (Four Weddings And A Funeral) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_7MJQnk4M8 (Shirley Valentine) And don't groan. One, underneath the 'female-friendly' surface stuff - these are bloody amazing, sooo impactful - especially for someone in your nightmare-ish position - and two, they're surprisingly great FUN! They're basically about the Dos & Don'ts when it comes to marrying. Actual life-changers. Honestly, they should instantly sort your mind out for you, while you just lay back and munch popcorn. You might need a long sleep afterwards though - from all the mental ephiphany-ettes ("ping...ping-ping-ping!...."). You might even find you have the giant urge to watch them all over again. Because, closely enough, they're about you. Right now and then decades later if despite feeling the way you feel, you proceed. Forgot to mention: Re the guests who've booked already. AWW, BOO-HOO. Why - what? Would they rather you enter a misery-making marriage, just so's not to inconvenience them a bit? Yeah, they might forfeit a booking-fee ("ermagheerd - end of the wuld!"), but they can take your wedding present back. Who cares, anyway. The rest of your life makes their inconvenience look like NOTHING. Who would or could be so petty to hold it against you? I tell you...Anyone who failed to say, 'Woah, though...you can't say the lad doesn't have iron balls and integrity!', would ne showing themselves as unfit to lick your boots (and should hang out more with her). It'd be old news within a month, anyway.

Thanks again for the help. I have started counselling and making a list of good and bad about the relationship. I watched 4 weddings and I think I get the meaning ha. I'm just still trying to figure things out, though I keep seeing if you are not 100% then it should be no.

Heya, you're very welcome, still. :) Started counselling? Fantastic! Did you check whether s/he is au fait with NPD? Cannot WAIT to see her "Rap Sheet". It's a very powerful exercise, you'll find. "....F*ck!.....f*ckety-f*ckety-f*ck!...f*ckkkk-it!" (I won't say, name the film LOL) Not sure about the pairing between Scarlett and that 7ft cowboy, though - are you? Can't see it, meself. It's a good laugh, though, isn't it. (You might find you like Notting Hill...co-stars Rhyss whassisface, that Welsh comedy actor - hysterical). Yes, of course, you're still trying to figure things out. Their effect on us Normal-Healthy-Empaths is way vaster and deeper than we realise...until we break or separate from them. Their way of being plays havoc with our healthy programmes ("Error - Does Not Compute!"...."Danger - Corrupt Data-supplier!"). Yeah, sure, take it slowly. There literally is no pressure. Nothing that doesn't shrink to a pinhead when compared to going ahead with marrying when you feel it in your bones that you shouldn't. Remember: this isn't you, and your cold feet. This is about her having ...well - deteriorated. And too starkly in a short space of time, with (I presume?) no set of traumas and crises going on all around her. (That wouldn't be an excuse, either. But it least you could easily understand it.) RSvP, and do keep keeping us posted?

Sorry I don't understand that last bit. We seem to be getting along ok at the moment but I just can't help but think when is it going to change back to the disrespectful behaviour/ comments.i just do t know what to do. My counsellor has highlighted some.. red flags, and I agree. I feel like I'm waiting for a big fight to break it off and not look like the bad guy in the situation.

Hey-hey - soz delay again - be with you shortly (tonight, preferably, tomorrow latest).

Hi-Hi! "Sorry I don't understand that last bit. We seem to be getting along ok at the moment but I just can't help but think when is it going to change back to the disrespectful behaviour/ comments.i just do t know what to do. My counsellor has highlighted some.. red flags, and I agree. I feel like I'm waiting for a big fight to break it off and not look like the bad guy in the situation." Which last bit? Can you copy and paste it in, please? Yes. *I* can't help but wonder when she's going to revert to Out-Of-Order. And re counsellor spotting at least some red flags - PHEW, GOOD. Thank god you didn't get an inexperienced, un-Narc-educated, "Bleeding Heart" (awww...poor slow serial-killer....it's not her faauult, you just need to love her haaardeeeer) (tell it to a Snake-charmer mate - a sequence of lethal bites are still a sequence of lethal bloody bites - or YOU LIVE WITH HER and THEN tell me that!....haha, don't get me started)... So - good. That's another obstacle avoided. You do know what to do. Wait for her to slip up again and yes, make a meal of it! Who CARES HOWWWW you escape a secret nutter. Just THAT you escape is what matters in this NPD entrapment situation. I mean, what would you have said had you been one of the soldiers who, incredibly, escaped from Colditz? "Oh, nooo...I have to bash this SS guard over the head with a club to put him out of action.... I don't think I can..... CALL THE WHOLE ESCAPE OPERATION OFF, LADS!" NO?! You'd happily go, bash. Because you'd not be bashing some nice, innocent person, would you. You'd be bashing your Nazi, very anti-Geneva Convention, genocidal, sadistic as hell, ....wait for it.....NARCISSIST! So that just shows me you need to read up more, specifically, stuff written by victim-survivors who've since stuffed their face with studying about it all. Tomorrow I'll see what I can find you in my trusty archives. Don't forget to paste in what you didn't 'get'.

Meanwhile - put down everything, blinker yourself with your palms, get rid of all background noise and read this TEN TIMES, I KID YOU NOT: "I feel like I'm waiting for a big fight to break it off and not look like the bad guy in the situation."" The bad guy is not the one that breaks it off. If the bad guy DOES breakk it off - he deliberately makes it optimally painful....does it at the alter. Saying that, it's the WAY!!!! he does it at the alter. He does it in whatever way he's worked out, will floor her and instantly create huge power over her now and into the future - or leave her ruined as he goes off too soon with her replacement - AND paste it all over Facebook where normal-healthies who'd unexpectedly bumped into one of their genuine matches, would feel too wrong, guilty, embarrassed to behave so...Jerry Springer Guest-like. And other signs 'n stuff'. See how way off base that fear of yours is? I said the sooner you delay, the better And that's why. Those that know and love you/love and know you, will KNOW you're not like that. Other Narcs who were only using you/your family, will love the excuse to slag someone off - and you'll do! Or do you just want to call it off in one fell swoop, instead of halving it into delay then cancel? Why aren't you confiding in your PARENTS as well as the therapist? Do you have a bad relationship with them? If so, I'll be your parent through this. Just spill, for goodness' sake man (grabs ABCD by shoulders and shakes hard until he goes, "Ur-ur-ur-ur-ur-ur-urrr!"). Why aren't you confiding properly in ME (all those unanswered questions up there)? You're completely unidentifiable on here....too many people the world over are in your exact boat with someone who's almost a carbon-copy of her. Not so much, needle in a haystack as BOSON OR QUARK! This is your golden opportunity to get out BEFORE you get too involved/embroiled/paralysed to leave and thereby before getting seriously injured in such a way as can make trying to leave a second time, even harder, ...and harder....and harder....until you can't.....and even if you do manage it, leave you incapable of functioning normally for up to 2 years, and having to neurologically readjust, "de-Flea" yourself, for up to 5. I.e. no dating meanwhile - you're too jittery for the first 1-2 years, then having too much fun, peace, quiet and harmony being single. Because...This is NOT just a break-up. It's a break-up too soon AND realising that psychologically and emotionally - to the deepest level of your core psyche possible - you were conned by a romantic con-woman. Sorry... but grown women don't treat you like that, let alone screech at their partner. People with shite rearing on top of Narcissistic brainwashing - and other mentally crippled/diseased types - do that. It's going too slowly, isn't it - the counselling. Is your therapist AWARE you're under the clock to such a serious degree? Might you suggest switching to her suggesting ways to put a stop to it without you looking like the perp when you're actually the victim? Or at least looking like the CO-victim (bad mix)? Tell me what's keeping you in that relationship - by which I mean, ASIDE from 'setting off a bomb', socially? It's money/cost of living - or wanting back what you've 'futilely' spent on her? - isn't it. Or it's her place, meaning, you'll have to find alternative rental. Which?

PS: "You'd be bashing your Nazi, very anti-Geneva Convention, genocidal, sadistic as hell, ....wait for it.....NARCISSIST!" That's given me a great idea! I'm going to spread a new term. I'm fed-up with having to say Malignant before I say Narc so that people don't keep hanging merely difficult/high maintenance-and-unaware Benigns for purposeful, deliberate, truly sicko Malignants (out to destroy you emotionally and socially, and, the severest of them, financally, familially, job-ly and everythingally): Narcissist (NPD...diagnosable but not trying to slow-kill you) versus Nazissist (malignant, sadistic, fraudulent, even criminal, slow-murderous/genocidal/world-cleansing of all good people who makes rules for them and everyone.....this case, in a small pond (domestic-romantic)...no real power, save over YOU (and others unseen)). Yup, I like that! Nazissist. Says it all. Spread it round for me? Cheers. :)

Thank you again for the response. I know it's late on a Saturday. How do I get over the guilt of it all. She has stated that everyone seems more excited about the wedding then I do. We've booked a holiday which I've also not shown an awful lot of excitement about. There is just this massive nagging felling and numbness about everything that I can't get past. What do you think I should do? . Am I doing her and myself a disservice and per longing the inevitable? People have booked rooms at the wedding venue and her maid of honour has already arranged her hen and got deposits, so there is a financial implication for other now. Even though we agreed before Christmas when the ultimatum was given that we didn't have to get anything booked till April/ May (this was my timescale as to when I started to want to look to try and fix issues), but now everything is booked by end of Jan start of Feb. What do you think I should do? And could you give your reasoning? Though I think I know the answer. I just don't have the guts to do it and the guilt is horrible. Thank you for any response.

You are prolonging the inevitable, yes. i expect you have an awful lot of past, repressed and suppressed complaints to 'slap her silly face with'. But that way lies, behaving (to the dense or NPD-uninitiated/uneducated) like a perp. How you get over the gui- GUILT FOR WHAT? Was she just normal and you just went off her? Er - NO? So - for wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwhat, pray tell? PS: Hello! :)

PS: If you have the misguided Guilt you won't have the Courage, no. So let's find out - Guilt for what? Listen- schedule-wise, she's changed the goalposts so many times and so drastically, not only is she not playing Tennis - you and she are not even playing in the same bloody stadium any more! SHE...should be guilty. But because you've been over-civilised, and SOMEONE in the pack has to feel the Guilt - 'it may as well be Muggins, here'. ...Eh. Did you happen to hear this or any variation of it a lot in your past? "Awwww, YOU apologise first(/whatever), you're the stronger(/whatever) one'. ?

The term ‘Narcissistic abuse’ is pretty recognizable that it’s a bad thing. Like no one’s gonna sign up for some form of abuse, right? So, if you’re unfortunate enough to know firsthand such abuse then how can it be that the prospect of leaving one’s abuser can feel scarier, more conflictual, and guilt inducing than staying in the abusive situation? In this post, I want to explain how to overcome guilt felt in the process of trying to leave a narcissist. It is very common to find the prospect of ‘escape’ scarier than the practice of hanging around. It’s also possible to understand why this is the case and use this understanding to challenge the core assumption that drives those feelings of fear, guilt, and self-loathing that can emerge when attempting to leave your narcissistic abuser. In today’s post I will offer such an understanding and offer a concrete step to take to challenge the feelings that tell you to stay when you are intent on leaving. My name is Jay Reid and I specialize in helping individuals recover from narcissistic abuse in individual therapy and through my online course & community. We take a 3-pronged approach to recover of: 1) Making sense of what happened, 2) Gaining distance from the narcissistic abuser, and 3) living in defiance of the narcissist’s rules. Today’s blog post sits squarely in the ‘gaining distance’ department. I recently organized the playlists to reflect these 3 categories and encourage you to take a look. And if you were a scapegoat, this e-Book on Surviving narcissistic abuse as a scapegoat could be of interest. It falls under the ‘making sense of what happened’ heading and can help you understand the different forms of narcissistic abuse and the beliefs that you are often left with. You can click here to get it. So, why can you feel guilty to leave someone who does not treat you well? If you had a narcissistic parent or partner you had to deal with a pretty consistent of experience of emotional deprivation despite working hard to give to that person all the time. I’m describing what was likely your inner experience while knowing that you may have been accused the entire time of not giving anything, being thoughtless, inconsiderate, etc. So you knew that you felt like you were giving and getting little to nothing in return but the external reality with narcissistic abuser was woven with the narcissist’s claims that you don’t give enough despite how much s/he gives to you. It can be confusing, to say the least. Surviving narcissistic abuse means making the narcissist happy with you Often in the course of narcissistic abuse you are pressured to think that the only way to survive is to make the narcissistic abuser happy with you. For the child, this is an easy sell because they need the parent to give to them the necessary ingredients to feel loved for who they are as separate people in the world and to feel like their own love is valuable to others. The child fears that if his/her own parent doesn’t offer them this, then they will never find it in their lifetime. The narcissist feels unconsciously entitled to others’ efforts to make him/her happy because s/he believes that they are more important than you. This is why the experience in the relationship can feel so one-sided yet the narcissistic abuser seems so convicted that you are not giving them enough. One way to make a relationship sort of work with someone upon whom you believe you must make happy otherwise suffer something much worse is to assume responsibility for their emotional well-being. So, the child can reason consciously or unconsciously that the narcissistic parent’s happiness is more important than his/her own and come to regard their own happiness as a sign of the selfishness that the parent is always accusing them of. This is an ingenious maneuver to avoid the other outcome of having no way to attach to the very person they so desperately need. It allows them to avoid feeling catastrophically alone. …now the narcissistic abuser’s happiness takes the place of your own. The trade-off for this strategy is that now the narcissistic abuser’s happiness takes the place of your own. You have to discount the importance and even worthwhile-ness of your own happiness and elevate the importance and nobility of theirs. Again, I say this with an attitude of compassion because it’s only done in order to secure a thimble-full of attachment where no attachment is not an option. Once this trade-off has occurred in the survivor’s psychology then it can feel like what the survivor does or doesn’t do has the power to make or break the narcissist"... ((I'm gonna re-paste that so you can read it again and come to the conclusion that, in actual fact, any horrid consequences as result from your (by any sane stretch of the imagination)) healthy, self-respecting and -protecting, REACTION to attempted (serious) coercion from her - IS HER OWN DOING. "Own Worst Enemy", they're known as. If you let them escape consequences, they'll have got away with it "as usual" and will be ego-fed and puff up even BIGGER, even MORE dominating/controlling/manipulating. The best thing you could DO for her is to break it off. AND for the people in your entire county/district! : ***** Once this trade-off has occurred in the survivor’s psychology then it can feel like what the survivor does or doesn’t do has the power to make or break the narcissist. ***** )) ..."And of course, it follows that if you do or don’t do the thing that seems like it would ‘break’ the narcissist then a torrent of guilt and self-blame can come flooding in. Well, of course, doing something that promotes your own needs for protection and happiness such as putting distance between you and the narcissistic abuser could initially feel like something that would ‘break’ the narcissistic abuser. It flies in the face of the belief that you are first and foremost responsible for the narcissistic abuser’s happiness – before your own. I believe that defying this rule can be one source of guilt. ((The writer doesn't need to believe it, it's an established fact.)) It’s sort of like a sin might feel if you’re religious. ((OHHHH, YES... Because, of course, leaving nassty out of it - without you, they're so helpless and inept! ("Da-dda!").) The survivor has had to elevate the importance of the narcissistic abuser – just like a believer would with their God – and anything that goes against the ‘commandments’ of that elevated deity would feel like a sin. There’s another – and I think deeper – reason why you can feel guilt and a host of other bad feelings. The initial dilemma with a narcissistic parent or partner is that you cared more about attaching to them than they were able to care about attaching to you – through no fault of your own. Nonetheless, if you didn’t figure out how to take responsibility for their emotional well-being as a compensatory strategy then you would have been and felt completely abandoned. I think ((tsk - it's fact!)) our systems ((when kids or however total dependents incl kidnap victims - google Stockholm Syndrome)) are designed to prevent such psychological catastrophes from happening and one way of doing that is to send aversive signals when we move away from this Gerry-rigged form of one-sided attachment towards something that is hopefully more fulfilling and reciprocal. So, feelings of guilt as described above, or extreme anxiety, or even terror can often arise when you contemplate psychological separation from the narcissistic abuser. ((So, feelings of guilt as described above, or extreme anxiety, or even terror can often arise when you contemplate psychological separation from the narcissistic abuser.)) ((FEELINGS ARE NOT FACTS - say it 15 times on the trot!)) These feelings are well-documented in the psychoanalytic literature and in a lot of ways is what therapy was designed for: to offer support, understanding and relationship as you traverse the emotional terrain from the ‘bad old way’ of attaching to the ‘new untrodden good way’ of attaching to others in a more satisfying way. ((I call this 'doing a Methadone'...transferring your addiction to the lethal to the benign but equally satisfying. You can make this forum your new source of company - and other forums. One of the bonuses of this here interweb; you imagine if all you had for Recovery Path company was via postal-letter-writing and, not even phones!)) ((FYI, your ancestors had to be effing tough!)) If you’re interested in going deeper into the importance of and challenges within gaining distance from your narcissistic abuser, you might check out module 3 in my online course titled ‘The importance of distance from the narcissistic family’. How to overcome guilt to leave your narcissistic abuser? Here are 3 tactics: Know that your guilt comes from feeling responsible for someone else First, you can arm yourself with the understanding offered in this post that your guilt stems from the assumption of responsibility for the narcissistic abuser’s emotional well-being and work to compassionately understand why you had to assume it in the first place. Next, you can gently challenge this premise – what could it mean if you were not responsible for them in this manner? Why are their needs more important than your own? It may feel like that’s the case, but what’s the objective evidence to suggest they are? As you practice extending your attention to the information generated in such thought exercises, it can grow to feel safer and far less guilty as you proceed in separating from the abuser. Connect to other safe people and communities Second, and I can’t overstate the importance of this, is making sure you have connections to other safe people and communities. This is what can reduce the deep fear, anxiety, and guilt that comes with going away from the only way you’ve known attachment to feel. The goal is to know that although it feels similar to the trauma of separating from someone who doesn’t treat you well (i.e. the past), you’re in a different situation today. You have people who are genuinely interested in and care about how you feel as the separate unique person you are. You can find this in the form of friendships, relationships, and/or online communities. In fact, this is one of the reasons I implemented a private facebook group to accompany my online course on recovery from narcissistic abuse. To afford people a group of like-minded safe people who can see, recognize, and validate each other’s attempts to do right by themselves. It’s been a beautiful thing to see members take turns asking for, receiving and giving support at they make this separation from abusive people in their lives. Know you deserve your own patience & compassion Third, and this may sound familiar, this is a process and not a switch that’s flipped. As best as possible offer yourself patience, kindness, and compassion as you take incremental steps in this direction. ((I and anyone else here can walk with you there, if you like?)) It’s a barge you’re trying to turn around – not a sailboat – so doing it safely and successfully requires a persistent and steady hand.((...))" __________________________________________________________________________- ((...Oh, aye. But the Grief & Recovery Path is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA(wait)AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA(nearly done)AAAAAAAAAAAR preferable to continuing an NPD Fauxlationship, when they just get worse and worse...and just as you think they can't get any worse - worse and worse and worse.... Especially for the Thriving portion that you reach (that happens) "all of a sudden" as you pass the chequered flag. You realise just how incredible you and your mind actually-factually ARE, and NEVER FEAR ANYTHING AGAIN. It's like bothering being terrified of baby sugar ants when you've just slain a 30ft tall, fire-breathing (or screeching in your case) dragon. ...well named me, because, they DO drag you. Not just to the alter. Everywhere. You wait until (if) she gets (would have got) that ring on her finger. Say goodbye to your knees. This will be GOOD for her - AND good for you, too.... "maybe notchaday...but shoooon...an foar the rest of youar life" (- name the famous film!). Hope that's helped?

WHOOOPS - I lost a whole chunk of the start there! Here's the site link: https://jreidtherapy.com/how-to-overcome-guilt/

Also, time-wise - you need this book - urgently (not expensive). Fantastic, it is...sounds weird to say so but most 'undecideds' find it a tremendously good read, even those that don't have problems or aren't even in a relationship at the time (forewarned is forearmed, and all of that). It'll sort your mind out instantaneously as you go from chapter/question to question. And it doesn't hurt a jot... really grounds and re-centres you in record time. https://www.amazon.com/Good-Leave-Stay-Step-Step/dp/0452275350 "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by-Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether to Stay In or Get Out of Your Relationship" by Mira Kirshenbaum 'There are many books that promise to help you fix a bad relationship. This groundbreaking bestseller is the first one to help you choose whether you should even try—or if you need to go. Psychotherapist Mira Kirshenbaum draws on years of research and her work with real-life couples to help you make the right decision. She shows you how to diagnose your unique situation with self-analysis and questions like these, which get to the very heart of your problems: • What sins are forgivable and which ones are unpardonable? • Is your partner questioning your opinions to the point where you doubt yourself? • What is your sex life really like, and how important is it? • Is there real love left between you, and how does it stack up against all that you find unlovable? Mira Kirshenbaum provides expert guidelines that are the key to making all your choices, concrete steps that you can implement right now, and the ultimate way to determine your personal bottom line—what you need to be happy. This remarkably insightful and probing guide offers advice that lets you see the truth about your relationship—and with wisdom and compassion, it helps you act with the confidence of knowing that whether you decide to go or stay, you are doing the very best thing.' Also, to know what a man who's determined he's found The One and is going to marry her, by hook or crook, looks like - this weekend, watch, "The Graduate", starring Dustin Hoffman and Anne Bancroft. Again, it's deep but highly original, witty and entertaining from start to finish. (PS: the pop artist-producer 'Bassomatic' uses the most famous line from the film, that goes, 'Mrs Robinson, are you trying to seduce me?', and the entire filmtrack was by Simon & Garfunkel: "So here's to you, Mrs Robinson, heaven holds a place for those two pray...hey-hey-hey"......ringing any bells? Very famous film, massive box-office hit and quite taboo for its time, too. (Still is, in fact.) Enjoy! :)

PS: Haven't mentioned this as yet because it's one of those unobvious bleedin' obviouses that I take as read but - remembering you're overloaded - best I do anyway: She KNOWS you're waking up to her and the hot water you've found yourself; it's precisely WHY she's rushing you to the alter. Well, half-why. The other half is because they cannot keep their huge arse squeezed into those tight trousers forever, and when it's as big as hers, letting just some of it hang out is paltry relief; she's gagging to set it all free, let it all hang out. Which, she will. As soon as she's got that Ball & Chain round your ankle (and chained to the wall). ("Ruuurn, Forrest, ruurn!").

Thank you. I just don't know how to do it. She has a lot of trauma from her past like abandonment issues from her dad who has never had anything to do with her. Her auntie and uncle passed in their 30's early 40's, which she brings up when we argue like tonight. I don't have the words to tell her. A lot of her friends have booked rooms at the venue and my folks took. We've booked a holiday for may. She said during our arguement that I don't seem interested in either the wedding or holiday. I put it down to the wedding being more important to her and her vision of what ICT will look like. Her love language is words of affirmation and I'm terrible at that. The guilt is just unreal for me, and I just can't seem to get my head around it all and make a decision. You are right I think in the rushing element and that was a major piece of our conversation that we didn't have to start looking straight away and that then got changed.

"You are right I think in the rushing element and that was a major piece of our conversation that we didn't have to start looking straight away and that then got changed." . Start with that, and blame IT for having put you into this wholly inconducive tailspin, then. That works with giant toddlers ("da chair fell over, daddy" / "naughty chair...!"). Don't say 'I feel', though. Not with Narcs. Say, 'I think'. Mucho importante! Tell her you're worried that, because you HAVE to delay it (before your head explodes), she might read that as you not wanting to marry her and dump you for it. I call this, unwittingly painting a target on your arse...they then know exactly where to shoot to hurt you. But you're doing it wittingly-deliberately...because you WANT her to be the dumper (no revenge necessary). And then, hey-ho - she's abandoned YOU. ...only, you then strangely fail to act like a dumpee who wants her back and accordingly tries....You leave yourself dumped... Again: you won't get anywhere trying to be rational and reasonable, and tying yourself in knots as you try to appeal to her good side. She possesses neither. So you'll get worse than nowhere. ...And then later down the line if demanded to explain yourself - do the opposite to what she'd do and just tell the truth: "Yes, I know I said I wanted to marry you, but that was before I realised the You I would have wanted to marry and stayed married to, doesn't exist (and never did). You only have her (hah!) word that her dad was the perpetrator or that she didn't become his mini-perp who, as the Beta, tried (LaLa Land Style) to dominate the Alpha. Two Narcs don't tend to get on for long. That's why they try to trick NTs and the best of NTs (Empaths) into believing they too are a nice, normal, healthy, fully-functioning, well-intentioned, etc., etc., Neurotypical JUST LIKE THEM whom obviously therefore DESERVES them. (Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff.) She'll have to help herself. But she seems good at that. So I'm sure she'll in actual fact be perfectly fine and dandy, without you, constantly propping and being made to prop her up....feeling you have a duty to her/it...the usual symptoms you're malignant-narc-victimised. As FOR this: "Her auntie and uncle passed in their 30's early 40's, which she brings up when we argue like tonight." Sacrilegous (tick!)....using her ALLEGEDLY loved aunt and uncle's passing as a means to strongarm you. A weapon. Woah. She has no shame. Course, she's an NSpath and an NSpath has No Shame and No Boundaries/No-Go Areas. I think you're just having trouble believing it's what she is. Wouldn't you agree? It's probably because I'm anonymous. Fairenoughski. I'll bring in Martha for you...(Dr Martha Stout, top NPD/NPD-AsPD/AsPD expert and author of "The Sociopath Next Door")... 1. “Sociopaths have no regard whatsoever for the social contract, ((like agreements over schedules and never as an adult, screeching)) but they do know how to use it to their advantage. And all in all, I am sure that if the devil existed, he would want us to feel very sorry for him.” ((Pity disarms us normal-healthies, espec. empaths. You can't stay angry or steadfast in the face of da poor, wickle, injured, fluffy bunny wabbit "really"..., can you, now. Gremlin, actually. So - yeah, you can.)) 2. “After listening for almost twenty-five years to the stories my patients tell me about sociopaths who have invaded and injured their lives, when I am asked, “How can I tell whom not to trust?” the answer I give usually surprises people. The natural expectation is that I will describe some sinister-sounding detail of behavior or snippet of body language or threatening use of language that is the subtle giveaway. Instead, I take people aback by assuring them that the tip-off is none of these things, for none of these things is reliably present. Rather, the best clue is, of all things, the pity play ((or ploy)). The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy.” ((BINGO!)) 3. “...If, instead, you find yourself often pitying someone who consistently hurts you or other people, and who actively campaigns for your sympathy, the chances are close to 100 percent that you are dealing with a sociopath.” ((BINGO!)) 4a. “As a counterpoint to sociopathy, the condition of narcissism is particularly interesting and instructive. Narcissism is, in a metaphorical sense, one half of what sociopathy is. Even clinical narcissists are able to feel most emotions are strongly as anyone else does, from guilt to sadness to desperate love and passion. The half that is missing is the crucial ability to understand what other people are feeling. Narcissism is a failure not of conscience but of empathy, which is the capacity to perceive emotions in others and so react to them appropriately. The poor narcissist cannot see past his own nose, emotionally speaking, and as with the Pillsbury Doughboy, any input from the outside will spring back as if nothing had happened. Unlike sociopaths, narcissists often are in psychological pain, and may sometimes seek psychotherapy. When a narcissist looks for help, one of the underlying issues is usually that, unbeknownst to him, he is alienating his relationships on account of his lack of empathy with others, and is feeling confused, abandoned, and lonely. He misses the people he loves, and is ill-equipped to get them back. Sociopaths, in contrast, do not care about other people, and so do not miss them when they are alienated or gone, except as one might regret ***the absence of a useful appliance*** that one has somehow lost.” 4b. “Sociopathy is the inability to process emotional experience, including love and caring, except when such experience can be calculated as a coldly intellectual task.” ((Such as, using (and re-using) aunt and uncle's death as her tool/weapon for instantly MENTALLY PARALYSING YOU!)) ((BINGO!)) __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Trust me. Trust those Bingos. Trust Martha. Trust YOUR GUT. Your Soon-to-Be Nex. Will. Be. Surprisingly... Shockingly... Insultingly... FINE. Please now go read Thea's thread, to see for yourself? You're almost level-pegged with her on the same path, literally just a few steps behind her. It'll do you the power of good to read the last few weeks of what's been going on with her NSpath(!!). And you need to bear in mind AS you read, that the only differences between a female nspath and a male nspath are: (1) the female's more physho-emotionally deadly/cunning/better at planning and (2) whereas the bloke "eats, shoots (impregnates), and leaves" everwhere he goes, the female uses pregnancy and babies as hooks to spike into her victim to make it feel impossible for him to move, let alone leave (and leave his kids with her/it, perish the thought). Draft your letters on here, if you like - I can help? And here's another idea: If you feel THAT superglued to her in terms of manly responsibility to her, then why don't you just Dear Joan her to her face whilst offering to be her 'Quasi Brother' instead? Bet you Miss Helpless Von HelpHerself will - oddly enough - turn around and fire you on the spot for that. If not. You get to say The Long Goodbye. Baby Steps. OR NOT! She might actually be palatable-ish as a sister?? What do you think?

Thanks again. I just don't have the specific words to bring it all up. We had a conversation this morning after the conversation I mentioned yesterday about her bringing up her past. She said she didn't want to do counselling and it would just bring up more issues for her she thinks. I disagreed and said it could help. She then said I said it didn't work for me in the past and she didn't know of any therapy I've had during our relationship (I never told her about the recent spell for obvious reasons) and she then said she's be upset/mad (can't remember) if I had and hadn't told her. Now it wouldn't bother me if she had had therapy and not told me till after, so I'm not sure why she'd be upset. Looked online and people are saying both sides that that is good and bad, that I should tell her but she may be controlling/ worried talking about her. Can you put a link for Thea's thread please? This is has all made me feel quite cowardly and unconfident in myself, though the later has been for a while.

I've read through all this thread again and both yourself/Soulmate and Man alone, as well as my therapist ( who said he shouldn't really give his opinion, though didn't say it in the exact words) said I should leave. I have one more therapy session though this is after the payment date for the big amount for the wedding. She is I think today booking a DJ, which I have again not really paid much attention to. So there is even more financial impact again. That's not till after this long weekend which we have plans, though she didn't want to meet my mates on the Friday as we have plans to meet her friends on the Saturday and my folks and hers of the weekend too. Is that normal? She doesn't like the pub it's in. We had a conversation about what we both need to work on, and during the argument I didn't allow her to bait me or change the subject to something I did wrong just to vilify me. We reconciled this morning before work, which means she is done with it, but I never am, I carry all the arguments with me, which is a narcissistic trait apparently, though I don't think I'm am narcissistic but worry about it. There is also the fact that I have not had an alcohol free day for about 3 weeks now. Not much just a beer or 2 but have found my self just heading to the shop and drinking it before going home. That's bad and I know it is, but I can't seem to help myself. Thanks again

Hey-hey - be with you tomorrow. Meantime - Thea's thread: https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13538/i-feel-like-my-life-is-falling-apart

We always seem to get through our disagreements. She is finally going to cook dinner tonight. After months of not. As you know this was one of the big things for me before Christmas and as I said in this thread. She has some really good traits too and this is so hard.

So 10 people have now booked rooms and she has bought a load of clothes for holiday. We're spending the day together today and it's going well. She mentioned again this morning that I don't seem excited still.

(Post 1/4) "I just don't have the specific words to bring it all up. We had a conversation this morning after the conversation I mentioned yesterday about her bringing up her past." Were you the one brought it up or was she? "She said she didn't want to do counselling" (Tick!) "and it would just bring up more issues for her she thinks." Yeah, that's why so many millions for decades and decades, now, still seek counselling/therapy. Because it just brings up more issues (inference being, that you come out worse than when you went in.) What a crock of an excuse. So (Tick!). She daren't. Counsellors (and a lot more now DO know enough or more about it at this juncture - thanks to the Lockdowns (no in-person customers - study-up time!)) aren't emotionally invested thus too panicked to think straight, like you... (That's why I want to know who raised the 'conversation' up there: IS SHE PRODDING AND SCRAPING YOUR WOUNDS, NOT GIVING YOU ANY RECOVERY TIME NOW?) ...They'd see right through her. And it would be their PERSONAL, HUMAN-ethical duty to strongly hint to you that you're with an Iffy, could get horribly, chronically injured (more than you already are, nervous-system-wise), and that the fauxlationship was already over at Hello.ç ***And - NOTE! - so would YOUR friends see through her. THAT'S why your friends - No; her friends - Yes (venue, my arse; it's called self-bloody-sacrificing for the sake of Equality/Fairness of marital rights, privileges and perks, like a spouse-to-be...starting as one means to go on (which NORMALLY is a *good* thing)). They'd all immediately be able tell you were in a state and would naturally start looking and listening incredibly closely to her, and then getting you into a corner to voice their suspicions and concerns. Not so, her friends (ignorant, duped, new Fans/Wannabes and Flying Monkeys). "I disagreed and said it could help." (I pointed-out she was talking utter b*llocks...the completely opposite of the Truth.) THERE ya go! More confidence like THAT, please, Bartender! (Gold star on your forehead...."thlup!"). :))))))))))) You were just (like Thea) very polite and gracious about it. (Style matters not. It's substance. ACTIONS. You said-did, STOP TALKING THE EPITOMY OF B*LLOOOOOOOOCKS, WOMAN, FOR GOD'SSSS SSSSAKE!) (I don't know about you, but I want to 'wring her neck'. GOD, she's frustrating! There is subtly refusing to conversationally cooperate in order that you both sort any issue(s), AND THEN THERE IS PLAYING *TOO* DUMB....just because she doesn't even have enough wariness/respect towards you (as a person) to be EVEN BE ARSED to come up with something BLOODY PLAUSIBLE! That's a "Sociopathic Tell/Reveal". It's her, sadistically rubbing her refusal to do her duty (were she a romantic partner for-real) to play TEAMMATE, rather than OPPONENT, right in your face. Bare-faced lying by talking complete nonsense as if you really were Alice In Wonderland and she, The Mad Hatter. NO, I DON'T LIKE WATER. IT'LL ONLY LEAVE ME THIRSTIER. 'Righto, (Evil) Forrestina........Now tell me, WHAT YOU THINK YOU'RE PLAYING AT? WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO *ACHIEVE* WITH THAT CHILDISH ATTITUDE AND BEHAVIOUR.... Is this supposed to always be ENDEARING you to me or something?! Are you ill? Do you need a doctor? I demand to know why you would MAKE such a downright retarded response as that?!' (is what I would say...but calmly/languidly and (always) piss-takingly). Do YOU stay calm? You sound like you do? Anyway: see if this rings any bells: My toddler, to me: "No...dunlike 'pinach" "But you've never TRIED Spinach so you don't KNOW...you might think it's yummy! Just try it? "Dun wanna" "Why not?" "....dunlike 'pinach". (I negotiated. For every spoonful he got a Smartie (colour of his choice) to collect into a little dish in front of him. I 'was so impressed' I gave him TWO Smarties for a 'really BIG' spoonful! You have to do that with kids. But you don't. What are ya - gagging for a kiddy? It happens to blokes, too, you know. RSvP?) But, YUP...sounds about the same level as counselling will make it all worse, doesn't it. But this is supposed to be another adult. DELIBERATELY "Playing Dumb" (Tick!). At an highly inappropriate moment (NSpath - middle name, Highly Inappropriate). (Tick!) HOWEVER....there WILL be a bit of a truth in with that lie (- NSpath: "wraps the truth around a lie or lie around the truth" - Tick!). And it's this: 'It will just bring up so much crap (in me) that the wedding (that I'm trying to shotgun you into) won't happen for a good 10-20 years'. This one is Aware of what she is. Hence, putting up Two Fingers to you whenever you want and need a straight conversation in order to broach the DEMAND that the Big Day be delayed. WHOOOOO wants to look back on their marriage, ANYWAY, and have to recall that they had to DRAG their partner down the aisle?! In terms of similarity to Thea's NSpath - This won't be a marriage for her. It'll be her JOB...part of her career. Were it a marriage, she wouldn't want to be having to drag you. "She then said I said it didn't work for me in the past and she didn't know of any therapy I've had during our relationship (I never told her about the recent spell for obvious reasons)" GOLD STAR - "thlup!"...Fckit, make that two: "thlup!". ('Heee's comin'-up!....He-wants-the world to kno-ow, got-to-let it sho-ow...') (name the hit late-80s female song/singer!) I'm very heartened by the wakening of your inner animal. It's still a bit dopey but it's CERTAINLY GEARING-UP! :). Methinks the (not-)fair Lady ought runneth whilst she may. (thumbs-up!) "and she then said she's be upset/mad (can't remember) if I had and hadn't told her." (AWW,...PPPP*SS-OFF - me) 'YA VULL, MEIN FUHRER!' (you) She RRRRRRRRRRRRREAALLLY thinks she's The Big I-Am and your Boss by miles, doesn't she...bloody hell..... f*ckiit - I've changed my mind. Do it at the alter. Not sure if I'm joking or not. I might be "hangry", though... long day, no food. Was worried it might just make me hungry. (HAHAHAHAHAHA....that takes first place for the best (worst) World Salad I've ever heard!) But back to (greater) seriousness: The only answer to that, regardless of whom or what to you the person were, should be something like this: 'Who the eff do you think you are - my Dad?! I wouldn't even let HIM make that silly threat, so what do you think gives YOU the right?! ....And you want me to sign up for a lifetime TO THIS?! Shape up or ship out, darlin! Quite frankly, I'm EMBARRASSED...that any partner of mine could come out with such bloody-minded DRIVEL - to ANYONE, LET ALONE ME...' (then saunter off, disgustedly). "Now it wouldn't bother me if she had had therapy and not told me till after, so I'm not sure why she'd be upset." Course not. And - ya do now - right? "Looked online and people are saying both sides that that is good and bad, that I should tell her but she may be controlling/ worried talking about her." 'MAY' be. (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!) Yeah, and the Pope may be Catholic. "Can you put a link for Thea's thread please?" (Actioned) (Did you end up reading all of it?) "This is has all made me feel quite cowardly and unconfident in myself, though the later has been for a while." Yeah, I know. That's WHY Malignants (btw Martha's narc-description is of a Benign, IMO) they're called Emotionally Dangerous. But, YOU'RE doing WELL! The awakening of, not just Conscious You but your primitive Inner Animal (he's going to mutineer you for you....YOU won't feel a thing and will live the rest of your life dead proud, haha) is slow for the first few 'minutes' (because yours has been in a deep sleep) (drugged), but then............. HA-HA-HA-HA....HOH-HOH-HOH-HOH.....'Run, Evil Forrestina' (- in terms of the Actions, if no in the style of delivery). It's still you, though.:) Like I say - who gives a damn about whether you nick her motorbike to escape from this life-screwing (poor but not unfortunate) out-of-order, female Biological Android? (Ever seen Bladerunner?) Right, gonna stuff my face then continue. If I can't continue tonight, I'll continue tomorrow because I've got the whole day to myself (lights Sparkler). But let me indulge myself and 'leave' you with this little extra eye-opener. You're inner animal is RUH-HUH-HUH-HEEEAAALLY terrifying! THAT'S WHY all this. You daren't unleash him, even though he's your best friend and bodyguard. ...that scary that even YOU are scared of him. (Bet that's got you thinking and remembering your childhood?)

I keep bottling it. Even though she had a pop at me Infront of my parents at breakfast yesterday morning and when I bought it up she didn't apologise. Went out for her friends husbands restaurant opening in the evening which was ok. And then normal this morning. We are of to her folks today to stay over and I am so anxious, cause there is only 4 days left for me to make a decision before a large amount of money goes.

I just can't do it. But living in a constant up and down cycle

Well, the evidence is saying, deep-down, you CAN do it - obviously NEED to do it - hence are doing it. And in the meantime, are managing that build-up of conscious steam by venting about it. Don't forget we're, all of us, just more-advanced, talking, virtually hairless Apes; there's never any getting around that. The ape, including your ancestors, were apes for far longer than they have been, "humans". Some parts of your most basic, survivalist (as including, perversely, altruist) mind and actions can't be curbed or stopped. Hence the saying and Stones song lyrics - "You can't always get what you want, but what you *need*. And if you're altruist, meaning, can't win - nor see it as such - without taking one or however-many *with* you, then maybe your inner animal and a high number of human ancestors have dealt with her type before and know that to let her experience a breakdown (in this case, called Narcissistic Collapse, followed by Narcissistic Petit Mort), is the best and kindest thing anyone could do for her. After all, you have ears, even if you don't know you're hearing something - or possibly the innate wisdom - or both... You're undoubtedly aware that too many erstwhile, NPD-knowledgeable therapists, do report that the point where a Narcissist will seek help/counselling is where THEY need it, THEY will benefit from it (AND, let's not fail to take into account - get to talk about themselves, endlessly, virtually uninterrupted (unless they're acting-out by talking shite). It pops their massive bubble and leaves them no choice. Rock Bottom. Currently, *knowing* you want to leave or at least stop the runaway train, yet stubbornly staying ON the thing to a degree that equals 100% determined YET FEELING GUILTY YOU ARE. ...and that the Cognitive Dissonance is NOT between stay or leave, but, 'she needs a damn good spank and reality-slap, and I'm the bloke to give it to her' and 'OMG, I couldn't possibly be that nasty!'. What if it's NOT nasty? Do I think I'm so subjective I even COULD say anything I didn't mean without making that clear? I meant it, in fact. Do it at the alter. Shove her train off her sick traintrack and into the hands of a rescuer de luxe (GP (doctor) referral to--therapist--ditto, to NPD-specialist therapist). This is the tactic your life/apperance overhaul merchants use (e.g. the UK's Suzanne & Trinny, hosts of "What Not To Wear" (YouTube it) and, more lately, "Ten Years Younger": strip the client down, mentally, right before building them up and far bigger/higher than before. ...Well, a watered-down version, obviously, because the clients weren't mentally impaired, haha. But if, as a bloke, you'd thought programmes like those were purely about changing and improving your looks, you'd be wwwwwway off, that's just the surface...the smoke & mirrors of it.) Tearing them down to build them back up again.... bit like Lee Majors in The Six Million Dollar Man ("Gentlemen, we have the technology")...all before your time but the concept is still part of the modern-day, common consciousness. Maybe it's Conscious You, literally internally fighting the will of your Inner Ape (and dispenser of so-called 'primitive' Urges, when primitive does NOT automatically mean stupid OR WE WOULDN'T ALL STILL BE HERE) that's the true cause of the anguish? If you're doing it altruistically but in a way where you finally - FINALLY - get to, metaphorically, give her and her Despotic attitude the kind of damn good spanking that might just save her and all who sail in her AND is - in terms of Jungle Law (which is where she's put you) - well-earned by you - then, IS that a bad act? I think you need to give this potential theory a lot of serious thought. If you can stop this ongoing battle in your head (begun by Conscious You), you'll finally see it. It's called "(NPD-Victim) Parentification". I.e. DEEP DOWN YOU KNOW YOU'RE MOSTLY HER DAD (because she behaved you into feeling so). Google . actually no, I'll find it for you in a min (tick-tock!). Because they are thus, underneath the by-rote behaviour (mask of sanity), ultimately think and act like, (permanently fumingly resentful and 'owed') little kids (or whatever age their trauma occured or came to a head). If you want my honest opinion - that was behind the 'harsh' way I rid myself of my own NSpath, despite, yes, it was incredibly ego-equalising into the bargain. It felt like jumping off a cliff though. Or should I say, abandoning my own small child. (DEFINITELY!) But he WASN'T my small child and neither had I advertised for nor chosen a small child. His whole advertising campaign and first few years' test-drive had been nothing but a HUGE PRETENSE...just to get his hooks well and truly into me, mostly, my parenting/altruism urges. I'd made it crystal-clear that I'd wanted an equal, compatible, my kind of sexy, ADULT to have a romantic relationship with - OR NOTHING...EVER AGAIN IF THAT'S WHAT IT MEANT. You/your brain, got kidnapped and that's all there is too it. NPD-AsPD is an Equal Opportunities condition, no gender discriminaton whatsoever, neither between victims nor perpetrators. As a bloke, however, it's downright mindblowing to realise you got kidnapped by a WOMAN when your whole life you'd been systematically led to believe that (1) you're the captain of your own ship, and (2) highly unlikely ever to find yourself, to all intents and purposes, *defenceless against a female*. (Welcome to theh club.) Meanwhile, females are (on the whole) taught that they would never find themselves at threat from their romantic 'other half' (or anyone who claimed to love them and, for long enough, behaved too-convincingly like it was true). It USED to be, statistically, that means worst fear was The crux, here, when it comes to who's gratituously nasty and who's just a 'Tough Lover' is: The Intention, as proves the justification (when the gloves are already off but the target-victim needs it pointed out for Guilt-blasting purposes). You just wanted a lovely life with a lovely lady. You didn't start this. You've been on the defense the whole way through, not the attack. You just wanted a bloody, NORMAL, LOVELY life-partner! You didn't ASK for this, you didn't 'earn' it. It was just bad luck/timing (or good, in terms of gain in iQ+eQ and mental strength, now forevermore happily teamed-up). Maybe that explains why you won't answer most of my direct questions? Because they're irrelevant, that you already know this is not something rational but 'how the Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals used to do it'?. (In other ancient cultures, however, once they were sure the over-difficult, peace-disturbing individual couldn't-wouldn't change, they'd take them for a walk before pushing them off a cliff! Bit extreme, but - there you have it.) As long as you're balancing Meaning Well with Saving Yourself, then - pff... you know her best? Whadda ya think NOW? (wiggles eyebrows challengingly). STILL too ashamed of just being human or kinda liberated? Pretty-much ALL people who've been through what you've been through - what can ONLY be understood by those who have! -would cheer you on if you're subconsciously-deliberately 'aiming' to make that fake wedding-day the catalystic start of her mental recovery (or at least, learning coping and self-control skills)? 'Kill or Cure', eh. (PS: I don't suppose you're a doctor or something? That would explain you?) Anyhoo..got more to say but I'm going to take a wee break. Slept VERY late today so despite it's gone 2.30, I'm wide awake. Back in a bit...

PS: Let's keep it real: Had our parents' generation and those before them, not stayed safely passive inside their own bubbles of delusion - we should have been warned about 'people' like this. We're not talking mere emotionally-parasiting-&-devastating NPD, here. Sociopaths with Narcissism are NOT funny. They want more than just psycho-emotional power over their victim. Despotic, Delusional, Paranoid, openly or secretly Grandiose, Coercive, Covert-and-Overt AND Ambient(!) - ever antagonistic - (Passive-Agressive the rest of the time), Greedy, Sadistic, Perpetually Bored, Envious, Jealous, Resentful for nothing... Wanting to take over OR remove you your life and personality cocktail... They can and do ruin lives and sanities. Give me a Covert or Covert-Vulnerable any day. They're small fry in-comparison. Seriously, getting rid of my NSpath (first-ever, in a romantic, up-close sense) was the first time I had really had to really put my mind and back into it, even knowing precisely what and how and what variation(s) to do...ad-lib on-the-spot. the truth is this: it always does tend to costs you, the 'victim', even financially, to get these, ultimately financially-conning, parasites, away from you, finally. Cost me. Well worth every penny. Especially when I consider what I've SAVED! I in fact, see it, that I saved my gorgeous kiddie, including his financial security. With you, you'd be saving your unborn one, wouldn't you. Is all of this starting to make you feel better? Because if it is - we have our answer. If it is, then - You're Daddy and your wayward, delinquent Daughter needs saving via the dressing-down of a lifetime, before it's too late...and you'd rather you did it than some stranger out in the real world who WOULDN'T give a shite about her and really hurting her? That's how I felt so - if no-one else understands and talks to you, you can talk to me. And join an Outreach or similar survivor's club. You can talk to them as well. We get it. :) It's just that, it's not something most people dare do. :)))))) Well, if you's a *natural-born* Warrtior on a *societally*-protective scale? Then you's a Warrior and that's that and it's yer job. (I will still find you the link on Parentification, though...)

Oops - sorry - didn't finish: "It USED to be, statistically, that" men's worst fear regarding women, was, that a woman might laugh at him. Women's, was - and still is - that a man might kill her. Not in La-La Land. Gender is immaterial...just a prop.

Here we go: Professor Sam Vaknin... He deals mainly with Coverts and Covert-Vulnerables (because they're the most emotion-mangling), but, as I've said, your NSpath plays Long Con, 99% Covertly, because you're a cushy, for-life, JOB to them, meaning that, long-term providing the ACTIONS of someone in-love, not just the words, in order to get to where they can start letting the mask fall off (albeit some rip it completely off in the Hotel Honeymoon Suite, I kid you not), is WORTH the (rare) spurt of actual hard work (for 18mths to 2-yrs, usually), this case, character acting 24/7. Because, let alone peck/punch you into emotional hospital, they'll parasite you for-life if you 'let' them. From the start, it includes Parentification of you by the malig narc and the crux reason(s) behind it. (This is what you eventually realise, and how simple it all gets, when you have/make the time to think deeper thus go far deeper than popular, surface information.) Obviously (and annoyingly for you), in your case you'll have to reverse the genders ('she' for he, 'father' for mother): "Narcissist Needs You to Fail Him, Let Go (with Azam Ali)" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bF2NyJ-ouI (He lets you skip to the next section, which is handy when you're in a hurry.) Summary quote: "If you're a GOOD partner - you're the wrong partner for a Narcissist". Tell me if this makes you feel any better as well? More pertinent links to follow...there's one where he goes into Parentification in greater detail and real-life application in terms of emotional impact on you - and "the raging guilts" - as a very real (yet not insurmountable) barriers to 'letting them go' ....can't quite re-find it yet.

PS: whether they mean to hurt you each or any time, or not, is immaterial. If I right now stood painfully on your foot in a hob-nail boot and failed to have the initiative to remove it, as opposed to know what I'm doing (and why). just pretending I didn't, and failed to remove it - and this KEPT happening, in fact, just happened more than twice - WHO CARES? A broken toe or foot is still a broken toe or foot. Evil or Thick As Pig Sh*t . Who cares. You only need to know what she is in order to have the special lenses with which to finally see and appreciate how horrendously cut and bruised and fractured you have already become during your time of trying-trying-trying-trying.. to make a normal relationship with an abnormal anti-relationshipist (made-up word, well needed) work. In a crisis situation - prime example, plane problems - if you wanna be the hero then it's, *Own Oxygen Mask On First*. You're bugger-all use to anyone else, otherwise (think about it).

PS: I forgot to say: NSpaths always DO have good traits too. But, unbeknownst to us, their motives for having them are subversive and still selfish (which, alone, doesn't predict great survival odds for you). PLUS, getting infected (via your eyes, ears, empathy conduit) by a (relational) nutter is getting infected by a nutter, REGARDLESS that at times the nutter is in a sunny, friendly mood instead. PPS: Feb 2 2024 at 14:06: "I'm now looking at a wedding venue 2 months prior to the agreed date to start looking and it's been only a month. Only a few things have been honoured that discussed, for example her helping to cook, this has been a on going issue as no matter how tired I am I still have to do it and haven't had help for years, she has cooked maybe 5 times since Nye which is more than the previous few months. She promised to not hold resentment for the ultimatum and that it took longer than she wanted for me to propose, though has thrown it out as a passive aggressive comment during a disagreement." And this last post - Mar 29 2024 at 10:01: "She is finally going to cook dinner tonight. After months of not. As you know this was one of the big things for me before Christmas and as I said in this thread. " Meaning - as I understand it - this: At February 2nd, her refusal (bar a truly negligible amount) to do her share of the cooking (assuming she works shorter hours?) had been ongoing for YEARS. So it's not 'after months of not', is it. YOU mean, after years and after a month since having promised but not delivered. Well, she HAS to do something as easy as cooking, now, doesn't she. Anything but have even a bit of sympathy for what this MAJOR COERCING is so obviously doing to you and have to DELAY THE MARRIAGE. Note she's still only doing the bare minimum, though. Sod her good side. Because - What good is it doing you? If it were enough of a good side, AND GENUINE - in fact, were having ANY effect worth having, then, we wouldn't be having this conversation. She may as well NOT have a 'good side'. It's not her, anyway. It's her acted character. Upshot is: She's MORE Dark than Light, and secretly, whether she knows it or not, even her Light is toxic for anyone with a healthy human mind. So... Game Over, anyway. Or - Registered As, finally. (Malignant Narcissist or Sociopath With Malig. Narcissism: 'Over at Hello'.) You probably haven't got the time or headspace to answer me, but - you must be a pretty good cook by now? And I want you to think about that because it's a little-known, huge compensation/reward for the victim AS A THEME: "Were it not for Exipoopoos, I wouldn't be able to cook like I do - or at all!". That's just one of the many mini bonuses though. The main one is this: Not living daily with being confused, frustrated, hurt, thwarted, disappointed, insulted, seriously hard-done-by, disempowered, ashamed at your own inertia, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.,..... IMPORTANT POINT/QUESTION: After all, had you known back then (when you were buying her a drink or whatever) what you know now - would you still buy her that drink or be climbing out of the pub loo window?

"We reconciled this morning before work, which means she is done with it, but I never am, I carry all the arguments with me, which is a narcissistic trait apparently, though I don't think I'm am narcissistic but worry about it." Nope. That's normal for a victim. That's what I point out in terms of "NSpath - the gift that keeps on giving": he/she doesn't just upset you once per week or fortnight because it can TAKE the victim 1-2 weeks to GET OVER that pasting! And then there's - just KNOWING you're life has become like this yet feeling unable and/or incapable of escaping...losing your self-respect and dignity. The abuse ends up IN ACTUAL EFFECT as being FULL-TIME. (Good side, schmood schmide. So does a bad-tempered pet Tarantula or Rabid Puppy. You still have to have THEM put-down at the Vet's doncha? Because it's become Them or You. And you didn't start it. You had good intentions (as above).)

Important PS: have you got any nasty or weird notes/texts/emails/letters/post-its from her?

If you think about it, we've come full-circle back to what Mannie said, look: MANALONE - Feb 5 2024 at 11:25 Member since Dec 2013 'when someone shows you who they really are, you best believe them'... is some of the finest advice on offer. Listen to your gut, it's talking to you & forget your guilt which has come from your partner screaming at you for 3.5 years about not meeting her standards. You need to ask yourself just what values & standards you guys share & what about goals? Do you really want & need to get married to a woman who controls you? Of course she doesn't want you talking to others because she wants to isolate you from your friends etc - it's typical behaviour of a controller. (PS: in fact, he was a member long before I joined.)

I nearly did it yesterday morning, as we were booking the DJ for the wedding I couldn't do that and closed the page and told her I want happy. I told her about all the things she promised before Christmas and none of them have been honoured, everything has felt rushed. How she gets her phone out when I'm talking to her, how she has put no effort into things she said she would do, how she goes back on it. There were tears, I was shaking getting it all of my chest. But when she asked me "do you still want to continue" I said "I don't know" and then after promising she won't let me down again after not knowing it was having this big an effect on me, and promised to do these things I needed. She also had a pop at me Saturday morning Infront of my parents which I bought up and highlighted she never apologised. Shes apologised for everything and we ended up still going to her folks for Easter and just got back. She seemed ok mostly but it feels very uneasy now. I just couldn't do it. She said she hopes that I don't change my mind in a few days.

During the chat she mentioned some of the good things she has done. Like drops everything including maybe getting into trouble at work to come and help when I have had anxiety problems or been sick. She calls me everyday to check in to see how I'm getting on. She is fully supportive of I loose my job ( as I'm having a disaplinary) we'll be ok. It's more the day to day stuff and treatment of me that has been the issue.

Here's a very comprehensive set of explanations (Sam Vaknin again) for their attitudes and behaviours: Giant 'Reality-Slap' for you at 14:38, in terms of, actually futile to go ahead with someone that narcissistic and empathy-less, anyway. Albeit that, the level he's talking about is, Severe. I say they ARE half-human - Ferel - because I've seen their truly stripped and vulnerable 'underneathies', too many times. It would be easier if Vaknin were RIGHT. So I'm not being biased or subjective there. Maybe, it's just that he's 'mixed' with far-more severe types than I, whom, indeed, are that far gone that 'the lights are on but nobody's home'. Someone was DEFINITELY at home with all of 'mine'. I've given you this because you need to cease viewing her through the Normal Person lens. I mean it - she might put on an embarrassing drama (like Duck-Face in Four Weddings) (because those are always handy for Little Miss/Mr Vomity), but, truthfully, she'll just be furious for having been outfoxed as well as escaped from, 'too early'. Not heartbroken...bereft...all of that. That's what a normal person feels. That portion of guilt, likewise, is wholly misguided. You expect a reaction, but usually the person eventually calms-down and sees sense. Not this lot. She'll have another 'sucker' plonked in your place FAR TOO EARLY for anyone who was genuinely 'in-mourning', but not too early for an nspath - you watch. And even then, that won't necessarily guarantee that she'll stay out of your hair from then on. _______________________________ Anyway, I see you've newly posted so - give me a mo...

Bloody hell, left out the bloody link again - sorry... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bF2NyJ-ouI (...now I have to wait a few minutes before it'll post again.... I'll read up...) Ooh! First paragraph! This I've got to see!

""I nearly did it yesterday morning, as we were booking the DJ for the wedding I couldn't do that and closed the page and told her I want happy." Ooh! Nearly is bloody GOOD! THUMBS....UP, THAT MAN! "I told her about all the things she promised before Christmas and none of them have been honoured, everything has felt rushed." You didn't!....did you????? Cor blomey, I wasn't expecting THAT! "How she gets her phone out when I'm talking to her," OHCH....DO NOT REMIIIND ME.... (fckneridslcfcknnldflhrwoñeurñowAAAARGH!) Sorry about that. It's just - you're dating my Nex. Not actually, but...may as well be. It's that limited psychology with its correspondingly limited screenplay, narrative, actions and dialogue; they're the one type you CAN say 'are all the same'. Anyhoo... "how she has put no effort into things she said she would do, how she goes back on it."" GOD, I'm proud of you. Wow. The Lion (..er, Liony Ape) has awoken....AND LLLLLLOOK AT HIM GOOOOO.... How did it feel? "There were tears," Course. She musn't forget those. "I was shaking getting it all of my chest." I'll bet! That's why I'm so proud of you! "But when she asked me "do you still want to continue" I said "I don't know"" No 'But'. That was perfect! "and then after promising ((yawn)) she won't let me down again after not knowing it was having this big an effect on me, and promised to do these things I needed." Ah. Deaf, dumb AND blind, is she? Well, we'll SEE, WON'T WE! (Mantra for you - in your head AND out-loud to her: "Don't keep telling me - SHOW me".) "She also had a pop at me Saturday morning Infront of my parents which I bought up and highlighted she never apologised." Course she did. She's testing and priming them in-one. To see if they'll leap to your defense (like their kid, still) or whether they know you better (full-grown, capable man), including that you can DEFINITELY handle a giant arsehole, female or not (not). "Shes apologised for everything" Oh, what - all lumped together like that? Sorry, she's not getting ANY benefit of the doubt from me. Even MORE so since I've learned she tried to show dominance over you in front of your parents! HOW INAPPROPRIATE a thing to do on your first meeting with your future In-Laws!!! (Massive Tick!). It also comes under, 'Loves to spoil special occasions (for you)'. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if at the alter she took her knickers off and threw them at the 'audience'. Not that I've ever seen or heard about anyone DOING that....it just popped in. (Hahaha, sorry. I'm finding her too 'ridiculous'.) "and we ended up still going to her folks for Easter and just got back. She seemed ok mostly but it feels very uneasy now." PUTTING IT MILDLY, YEAH! But WELL DONE!!!!!!! (I don't normally do that many exclamation-marks!) "I just couldn't do it. She said she hopes that I don't change my mind in a few days." What do you MEAN you couldn't do it? What on earth do you think you've just DONE? You've done THAT...IT. Sure, you haven't cancelled the wedding BUT...you HAVE trapped her RIGHT INTO a VERY TIGHT...corner. You've just told her she's on Probation. Are you that shocked that you didn't realise that? Hey....your individual style/manner/classiness is your business. Like I said, it matters not HOW you do it, just that you do it. You spelled it out like a gentleman....Bond, James, Bond (now look here, Miss Moneypenneh)... (Equally, you could have done whassisface from Allo-Allo: "Leesten verree carefoolly, Ah weell say zeess only WANCE...". NO. MATE - NO. THAT WAS AN INCREDIBLE ACHIEVEMENT. Aw, sorry....did I forget to tell you about how I coach you to high-jump 8 foot so that you can't fail at reaching the actual target (6ft)? Aw, nooo, sorry. :D (ducks and runs) Dead proud and very impressed. :) (You and Thea are uncannily similar....Two graceful Swans together...all calm on top, but feet paddling furiously at Warp Speed underneath...LOL)

Re in a corner: One foot wrong - no wedding. One foot wrong, post-wedding - no marriage (annulment). You're completely safe/covered. And she can't say you didn't warn her in terms even a toddler could have understood. Changed my mind... Are you in Insurance?

...And she CAN'T complain because - that's SO Fair Enough. Sah?.... You are an Officer & A Gentleman. :) (Did you see that film, btw?)

You've just made my evening. :)))))))) As for you: give it a few days and you're going to start strutting (again).

PS: "During the chat she mentioned some of the good things she has done. Like drops everything including maybe getting into trouble at work to come and help when I have had anxiety problems or been sick. She calls me everyday to check in to see how I'm getting on. She is fully supportive of I loose my job ( as I'm having a disaplinary) we'll be ok. It's more the day to day stuff and treatment of me that has been the issue." So what. Why can't you have someone that is reliable on a practical level whilst confidence-BOLSTERING, rather than shredding, on the emotional level?? That's what you'd get with a normal-healthy, kind, loving, giving, earnest woman, anyway. Why do you think you have to settle for less than other blokes/humans deserve and aim and go for? What - just because you're suffering the very anxiety she/her illness has induced in you, unbeknownst to you? Well, anyway, it's a moot point for a while, now that you've struck a balance and found a way to construct the definitive litmus test, with Escape door and equipment at the ready. :) "It's more the day to day stuff and treatment of me that has been the issue." Every day - yes - exactly. Little things....Lots and lots and lots and (aaargh) LOTS AND LOTS of little, niggly things. (This is about the built-up/layered-on effect on you, not the minutae of the items/incidents themselves. The basics and fundamentals...including not trying to dominate your partner, even in front of his parents (woah...), which are 'the taken care-of pennies that allow the pounds to look after themselves'. Keep writing here, everything that happens from now ...(- 'Captain's Log...Star Date 2024...')...the good things she does (and/or fakes), bad things she does (and/or fakes), ones you're not sure about.... This should be interesting because, aside from what's going on on the surface, there's still the fact that - you've cornered her...and she won't like that. Let's see...CAN she self-control for long eough, ergo change? Or not?....will she just try to be sneakier or injure you via a more creative channel in order to punish you for that and knock your new-found confidence out of you again? Not saying she'll succeed this time. But - is that urge TOO STRONG for her to keep a tight lid on from now on-Amen (now that she's been officially warned), with the exception of rare, stressy occasions...the normal reasons for when someone flips, creates 'a drama-for-two, I mean. ? ("Dann-dann-DAAANNNN!")

Also (if there's a next time she does this) - tell her: it's not ABOUT the GOOD stuff she's done. It's about her Dark side being too dark for you, so much so that it CANCELS OUT the bonding that her good stuff at the time achieved. (Duu-uu-uuh?) But when they've no leg to stand on - Narcs always do fling in your face the little they've done for you compared to the reality of the situation, which is, you've done far more. So that's just another (Tick!), whether Playing Dumb or ACTUALLY Dumb (eQ of a flea). (Back to watching that space with you...)

Seriously, though...You've just got her completely and utterly surrounded. (Yeeeeee-HAW!) Like a dunking chair. Can she swim (properly for-once) and save herself? ("Dann-dann-.... yeah, alright, LOL)

I'll just make this part clearer (you probably haven't fully 'come down' yet)... ""I just couldn't do it. She said she hopes that I don't change my mind in a few days." What do you MEAN you couldn't do it? What on earth do you think you've just DONE? You've done THAT...IT. Sure, you haven't cancelled the wedding BUT...you HAVE trapped her RIGHT INTO a VERY TIGHT...corner. You've just told her she's on Probation." Remember I said - Not Sure equals No? (Even 'probably' isn't Yes. Only Yes or I'm sure, is "I do".) And yet, she hopes you DON'T change your mind in a few days?? Nah, (Playing Dumb/Gaslighting,) she's literally tried to assign a new meaning to it...put words into your mouth,....to mean, I am sure...Hence, hopes you don't change your mind in a few days. ...unless that was a typo on your part and you meant 'hopex that I change my mind in a few days"? RsVP. But I'm thinking it wasn't a typo. She gets it. Despite her pathetic attempt to pretend it reads the other way ('Narcs - twist everything 180 degrees'...Opposites Day inhabitants...). But...that's sleight of hand or trick of the light, that is. Tiny...Missable...But Effective. Subliminal, if you like...meant to get past your Consciousness, totally unnoticed (or dismissed by the victim as nothing). I'll show you an example: Once upon a time there was a a little girl called Red Riding Hood. ...But obviously, hers is a more 'ser-fist-i-kaytid' version because - not to be taken lightly - NSpaths *are* master manipulators (when they can be arsed....highly mentally lazy, they are).... veterans (started early childhood rather than the teens).... got away with stuff for too long, grown bigger and bigger..... RARR...Crabby/Wet-Weekend/Killjoy, Hyper-Critical, duplicitous Covert becomes Monster (and secretly angrier than ever...for having been spat-out so many times....NSpaths always over-do it. Long-Con merchants who can only do Short-Con before their arse starts to increasingly spill out). Probably more like this example: No, I can't meet you at the cinema on Friday / Great, see you there - 8-o-clock sharp!...

Thank you, she was very upset and has promised to not let me down. I just couldn't say that I wanted to leave. She has sprang into action and tried to find a hobbies at home, hadn't interrupted me. I'm pretty certain I'm being hoovered. And given the past (above) I can't help but think that it's gunna stop at some point and just back to normal. It's Friday when about £4k needs to be paid. I'm still abit mad at myself that another opportunity has been given and keep hoping

"Thank you, she was very upset and has promised to not let me down." You're welcome. :) Promised not to let you down. Hmm. Let's believe it when we see it. "I just couldn't say that I wanted to leave." No. Because that bit follows on from if she STILL fails to keep her word, etc., etc. First and final warning. Now On Probation. That's fair....Fair to her, considering, until now, you haven't been this clear (lent extra weight and clarity for the When, Where and How), and also fair to the 'relationship'. THAT way, having done the decent thing (never mind the late hour - just that you HAVE, IN-TIME) - IF she can't change her attitude, really is a chocolate teapot, YOU will be able to walk away from that fauxlationship - easily, quickly, and with your head held high, thanks to a clean conscience. You've said it to yourself and just said it here, though. Now it'd only be a little leap if you find you do have to say it to her. It's up to her, now. Only she can save the relationship - by repairing the holes that only she punched in it. It's like a wooden fence. Merely saying the word 'Sorry' doesn't fix the holes, meaning, if she punches any more, there'll quickly come a time when there're more holes than fence (which is why you've been panicking)...and it'll crumble to dust. No warning - just PLEUGH! You've given her the floor, but 'owned' the disco. Can she learn to permanently stick to the Neurotypical-Empath Dance? If not - get out of the NT-Empath 'disco', you imposter, and let me find a NORMAL, nice, kind-hearted, decent, fun, FAIR...etc., ...Actual. Equal. 'DANCE' PARTNER. Team Us. I doubt it, though. I mean - ...Humiliating you in front of your parents... - WHHHHHHHAT-AH!?!??) (- another NSpath symptom, called, Risking the Relationship - "NSpath - takes risks"). I'm betting it came under "Dog Whistling" as well (google). And I'll bet if you'd turned around and accusted and belittled HER in front of HER parents - all Hell would have broken loose, at least in the car going home (the entire journey)! "She has sprang into action and tried to find a hobbies at home, hadn't interrupted me." Noted. Tell me if it's not sustained. "I'm pretty certain I'm being hoovered." Well deduced. :) "And given the past (above) I can't help but think that it's gunna stop at some point and just back to normal." ("Snap!" - up there) "It's Friday when about £4k needs to be paid." Eee. Okay. "I'm still abit mad at myself that another opportunity has been given and keep hoping" It's a process, not a one-off, impulsive decision and act. You've just taken your exam at the University Of Life (Masters Degree) as will leave you forevermore capable of asserting with and dealing with ANY body, any time, anywhere. For a piddly 4k or so. Uni costs, what, 30k these days (student loans). Cheap at a FRACTION of the price! Don't worry about it. You're on the unstoppable conveyorbelt to Better Off-ville - whichever way it plays-out (Win/Win). The progress you've made has been surprisingly rapid, ac...tually :p. ;)

PS: Interrupted while you're doing what, BTW? And what's the Disciplinary about? Falling asleep at your desk or just not being as productive as you used to, by any chance? (If it has anything to do with her effect, you're going to have to tell them. They should have learned enough, themselves, to understand.) (Does it?)

Interrupted me whilst speaking. She does it all the time or gets her phone out whilst I'm talking. I've got a disaplinary for leaving a small gas leak. It was a few weeks ago, so I can't remember what I was thinking during the job. Is it worth risking £4k over, she has been very concerned about it this week, I think she wanted to do it tonight but I've had a splitting headache so haven't done it. Honestly since I said what I said at the weekend I feel a whole lot better. I'm just still not sure if I can hold my promise to not change my mind, I'm seeing the changes but has time ran out now and it's too little too late. I think you've said it's not just the last few months of being engaged and waiting for a change it's the previous times before and the cycles of diminishing effort. I don't understand why I can't just call it off.

Half of me wants to and half of me doesn't.

Hahaha- yeah, I do realise that. That's what Cognitive Dissonance is - half of you saying No, the other half, Yes. Hence the book title "Too Good To Leave/To Bad to Stay". I have to be honest: if you'd ordered and read it by now, we'd no longer have this hard-set Torn-ness. Why haven't you? "Interrupted me whilst speaking. She does it all the time or gets her phone out whilst I'm talking." Oh god. This one, even on its own, is so incredibily frustrating, it's INFURATING. And it works to push victims too far, to where most finally lose control and commit 'Reactive Abuse' (google). Try this one: "Excuse-me for talking while you're interrupting!". And maybe add - "Were you ALWAYS this bad-mannered?". Start judging and nagging *her* in a superior, snobby-toned, looking DOWN on her way ("Air, I say - ugh - remove this specimen, Jeeves!") to step UP instead of trying to drag you down. Boo-Hoo is what they want; they don't expect, 'Ugh, I'm so unimpressed/turned-off...ugh! - no - get away from me (peasant)'. She wants a constant competition? Get her running YOUR field events-choice, not hers!...and give her hell! You realise they antagonise and provoke you because deep-down they WANT you to dominate them and take total control, like a parent to a 'lazy' Teen? They just don't want to admit that's what they want so instead they provoke, until you go, 'Rrrrrrrright, that's IT, I've had ENOUGH of you! This nonsense stops NOW - TODAY - (etc.)'. Just keep it a secret and act in front of all third parties as if SHE'S the boss-mover-shaker. And also, act around her like she is as well (rolls eyes). (Not a huge ask. More like, collosal. :p Life's too bloomin' short for such needless, time-consuming crap.) Over-indulged-with-crap-but-neglected-of-nutrients, or simply neglected - they were still a slave to the parental/whomever Master, who vowed on leaving home to never to be anyone's Slave again, never having been shown that there was a third, healthy option: Cooperatives aka Teammates. That's why your Coverts, when transitioning (i.e. degenerating) into Sociopath level, start to have to include in their 'get out of jail free card' bag of tricks, the faked Vulnerability and childlike-ness...the Boo-Hoos. Because they start to do Overt as well...as a distraction, a smokescreen to keep your nose away from sniffing-out the Covert stuff. If you think about it, what you're seeing when they whip out the Pity Ploy as an unfair, under-the-belt, defence shield, is a sudden switch from Bossy, Domineering Master to subordinate-subservient-obsequious Underling/Dependent (or even that variation, which is, a sickeningly cutesy, little-kiddie "Tee-hee!" (as in, oops...a total Minimisation ploy if ever I saw one!), like The Queen Of Hearts. Anything to dis-arm you of your rightfully angry reaction, confrontation, and demand for answers).......zero fault-finding, over-indulging and -praising (i.e. Crap) parent, whereby Little Johnny or Jane could do no wrong (despite they so did)? (PS: Didn't you notice that so many of the Spoilt kids at school tended to be anything from podgy to fat?) I cured my spath of the Pity Ploys...told him (nicely) that crying left his face ugly. He was sub-type Somatic so - aim, fire, bullseye. (Never forget: not Boo-hoo, why you being so mean to me - UGH, UNCLEAN AND BENEATH ME! Or get bossily parental. I kid you not: when I growled/sniped at my spath to 'go to your room!' - he bloody did! I couldn't believe it (because he was a giant one).) Basically, their parental deficit is huge and can't be filled in other ways by emotional thickies. It'll be morbidly fascinating at first for you to do all this experimenting and discover how EASY it is to manipulate THEM into cooperating and doing the right thing, or even to turn the tables in one, fell swoop. But it soon loses its charm. That's the trouble. They're a full-time ucking job. WORSE than kids! "I've got a disaplinary for leaving a small gas leak. It was a few weeks ago, so I can't remember what I was thinking during the job." I bloody knew it!! And yet here she is, basically demanding and blackmailing you to SPEND money! Money you might well badly need! 'We'll be okay'? HOW? Manalone was spot-on. Uber-selfish (...like a kid with no understanding or no care - me, me, me, impressive big day...). BASICALLY, she's put your job in jeopardy. DEFINITELY spill the beans to your employers but show them this if you have to ("Hello! :)). That sort of on-the-job oversight is a highly common occurrence (tip-off for them in terms of noticing that Victim Flag in future) when your mental in-tray was heaving under all HER crap! Unless they're similar to her, I'm sure they've been bullied in their time. All the nicest people have. They just didn't used to like admitting it, for fear of being seen as weak. It's not weak. It's having a natural human side with lots of vital, nay specie-IMPERATIVE Empathy. They just CALL it weak - to diss it - because they daren't ever put themselves ("ever again!") These aren't reversible attitudes, though....far too ingrained by adulthood, plus the giant obstacle called, self-delusion (nothing wrong with me, I'm great and enjoying living my life as Master, but I didn't do nuffink, anyway!) (no, they're not enjoying; they're just out of ideas and trapped forever, and employing their usual Defiance to protect their artificially over-inflated ego: "Didn't hurt anyway, mleugh!"). Me, I'm surprised back then that I even remembered to put my knickers on in the morning! Easy mistake to make in your situation. And it WON'T happen again because I'm here, doing the thinking/sorting FOR you, so your mind should be a lot freer from now on, until you've learned to fly Solo. So show them this. Don't ask - just show. (If she loses you your job I'm going to be completely and utterly FURIOUS! I'm sure you won't if they're 'real' and reasonable people, but - just saying. This woman has the potential to literally RAZE your life if you're (we're) not careful.) I doubt it, though, if you confide in them. It's the only sensible, self-preservationist thing to do. Really, they should be incredibly impressed for the fact of your resilience and resourcefulness in coming here for help, like a true Fixer/Dealer. AND the fact (despite you wouldn't have been aware of this) you're Speedy Gonzalez. AND even have the rare skill of Humility. (cough...just saying). Well, I used to hire and fire a lot. And I'd have hired you in a heartbeat. So don't touch that dial. Gotta break off for a few mins but haven't finished...

"I don't understand why I can't just call it off." Because your inner (bigger than you'd think!) scary animal wants to beat the sh*t out of her. Do you BLAME him? All the control YOU, the Gentleman Male, has, is HOW it's done. So there wouldn't be any physical nonsense. But the humiliation of being told "I Will Not" (I can't do this) in front of a whole church full of people (she's always trying to dupingly impress). Your ancestors obviously were around when the Village Stocks were all the rage. Most effective punishment and deterrent in history, that one! *Humiliation*. ('Bring back stocks!....when do we wannem? - NOW!') I mean - he 'in there' has chosen THE most spot-on counter-punishment anyone could have! What were the chances?! He seems to know an awful lot, doesn't he. (Do you ever get called an Old Soul?) Unfortunately, he has the advantage of no restraints and constraints (living unseen, not interested in social judgement). So he's doing better than you in that maraton arm-wrestle. I think it's great! Let's say it together: "Nobody puts Baby in the corner!" Honestly, if anything could turn her life around, that could. If the potential is truly THERE to 'save her from Narcissism', then - that will. If it doesn't - she's too far gone and doomed. I've also got a feeling that if the 'woman' can't trust and get along with YOU, she couldn't get along with *anyone*. PS: Are you a gas engineer or something, then? Was it at a customer's house? And I presume this, or anything like it, was a one-time, never before committed error? Jeez, mate. Poor you. The state you've been in. Anguish and Reduction isn't the word for it, is it. (((((((((((((((((((((HUG)))))))))))))))))))))))) It's definitely worth 4k to you, that's for sure. Maybe more? Anyway, you're proving to be a VERY smooth and skilled Narc-Slayer (still in-process). I'd not only hire you, I'd double your salary. IMAGINE being able to spot a Narc customer at 10 paces...how much money and trouble you'd save your company! You learn to see yourself as I see you, Sonny Jim. I see straighter, further and wider than most - AND around corners!

"Honestly since I said what I said at the weekend I feel a whole lot better. I'm just still not sure if I can hold my promise to not change my mind, I'm seeing the changes but has time ran out now and it's too little too late." Yup. But this is about you seeing this through, TAKING your well-earned Closure (who made HER decision-maker!?), and gaining an expansion of consciousness and mental skills that would normally take DECADES of smaller, pithier experiences and, I repeat, cost (in terms of a huge entourage of life-skills coaches/gurus) WAY-WAY-WAY more than 4k or even 10k. It's an amazing opportunity, in fact. This is transformative. You'll never fear anyone or anything again! Stop what you're doing and focus on this and really, really get it: you're in the process of getting the better of a serial slow-killer, who just kills people via the psyche instead of bodily (no scars, no proof) (wanna bet?!). *What does that make you?* It's also you combining everything that needs to be done/achieved, in-one. That's clever. Very efficient. Even getting close enough to the big day, still umm-ing and ah-ing, is potent enough to bring her to fairer heel (again, if it can be done). There's normal confidence, and then there's Narc-Slayer confidence. (Well!...What about me - how do I sound? ;))

Don't worry about the money anyway. With you coming out 10ft tall, you'll soon make that money back. For starters, with her gone you can get a lodger in (AND at full rate!). Said lodger and you could become great friends....you'd get to meet new people...possibly the ACTUAL woman of your dreams! Remember Einstein said: The sign of madness if doing the same thing over and over yet expecting different results? What you're doing is BIG. So the results/fruits are going to be big, too. ALSO - another relaxant. Yes it would cost more but it would be far easier (if she keeps up the good-girl act) to go ahead and then, one foot significantly wrong and - ANNUL.... The wedding would be old news, people would have got back to their normal weekly routines... a lot less fuss. But also a lot less transformative Humiliation. Still enough, though. Plus we have your defense at the ready on here, demonstrating that she's a brainwasher and coercive controller. Of COURSE someone coerced into marrying someone would be bound to 'come round' at SOME point following the big day. Exacerbated by THE SHOCK of the big day. It's her who's in the Lose/Lose position. WHICH *SHE* WITHOUT-QUESTION HAS EARNED (to point of, asked for). And don't forget that SHE HERSELF has the room to sense (like she's already begun) that going ahead might well land her in hot humiliation water...think better of it...and herself, delay/cancel (woo-hoo!). You can't lose. Not in the short-term, and nor in the long. Oh boy-oh-boy, did SHE pick on the wrong person! She must have been in a mad hurry to find a replacement for her last victim/Primary Supplier. Or maybe she equates gentle, not with amazing self-control plus empathy, but weakness (because her - it got her bashed). Well, she forgot the other: Really big dogs don't bark. Really. I don't see it that there IS any Lose outcome for you here. So try to relax now. You're in safe hands. (His.) Probably, after this, you and chimp-features will become best friends. And then it'll automatically always be Two Against One. And decisions will be easy. Just stop fighting and wait to SEE what your original Other Half does and by when! ("Dann-dann-DAAAAAAN!")

Thank you. So do you think I should continue with the engagement and give one last chance? As I promised myself before Christmas that this was the last chance and been hoovered again. The financial side of things, she has always earnt more than me an does pay more for anything she wants to do but I can't fully afford my half. I see what you mean about closure though it gives me the basis to say I gave all the chances I could. But I just keep getting this sinking stomach feeling whenever she mentions the wedding and payments.

On the other hand, if you really ARE stuck, this might nudge you out of it. I posted it in Jay's thread (so double-bracketed comments are to her, albeit, you yourself will relate to them) (and probably your bosses...there are a lot of 'dragons' to slay on ones way to the top, oh, yeah, baby...bet they could give you LOADS of advice!...and it'd be very bonding, too. Co-victims/survivors DO bond very quickly...which is precisely why Narcs (ridiculously) try to pretend to be a co-victim or are so deluded they actually convince themselves they are). ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ TRIPLE-bracketed comments, however, are for you, A: ___________________________________________________________________________ Stages of Healing After Narcissistic Abuse Author: Hailey Shafir, LCMHCS, LPCS, LCAS, CCS Headshot of Benjamin Troy, MD Medical Reviewer: Benjamin Troy, MD Published: February 11, 2022 "Narcissistic abuse is insidious and can cause lasting effects like low self-esteem, trust issues, self-doubt, grief, depression, and anxiety.1,2,3,4 With time and treatment, it’s possible to heal and overcome these issues, recovering parts of yourself and your life that were lost to the abuser. Recovery is a process that often occurs in the ten distinct stages outlined in this article.3,4,5 What Is Narcissistic Abuse? People with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) are more likely to be verbally, emotionally, sexually, and physically abusive towards others.2,4,6 While narcissists can use a wide range of abusive tactics against family, friends, and romantic partners, there are some abusive behaviors that are more common. 10 Examples of Narcissistic Abuse Specific abusive behavior from a narcissistic (((AS A PERVASIVE PATTERN))) might look like alienating, gaslighting, or attempting to control or dominate the victim. Identifying a narcissist’s abusive cycle can be a helpful first step to addressing it. Here are ten examples of narcissistic abuse:1,2,3,4 Alienating a person from their support system to isolate and control them (((TICK!))) Financially exploiting a person or using them for some other benefit or gain (((TICK!))) Stonewalling, sulking, or being cold as a way to “punish” their victim (((??))) Physical or sexual abuse or using threats of violence or abuse Repeated infidelity, which might be denied, weaponized, or blamed on the victim Playing mind games or using gaslighting techniques to make the victim doubt themselves (((TICK!))) Degrading someone or being verbally or emotionally abusive (((TICK!))) Distorting the situation and shifting blame to paint themselves as the victim (((TICK!))) Being controlling, domineering, jealous, or possessive (((TICK!))) Having unpredictable blow-ups (((OR MOODS))) mixed with kindness/affection (((TICK!))) Effects of Narcissistic Abuse Narcissistic abuse can have long-lasting effects. Being involved with a narcissist erodes your sense of self, lowers self-esteem, and causes crippling self-doubt.1,2,4,6 These impacts can show up in a number of ways for people, and often take several years (and a lot of therapy) to recover from.4 ((- not for you; you're young, you'll bounce back more quickly than, e.g. someone in their late 30s onwards.)) (((YOU, ABCD, ARE NATURALLY JUST PLAIN BOUNCY, HENCE MAKING SUCH PROGRESS SO RAPIDLY))) Some effects of narcissistic abuse include:2,3,4,6 ((Jae, if you could copy and paste this list into your reply post and add (tick!) for yes; (don't know); (cross) for no, that will help massively. And feel free to add your own:)) High levels of shame or feeling inadequate, unworthy, or “not good enough” Excessive self-doubt and difficulty making decisions independently Codependency or putting other people’s feelings and needs before your own Trust issues and trouble opening up or being vulnerable with others Feeling disconnected from your feelings, wants, and needs Trouble setting boundaries and forming healthy relationships Depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), suicidal thoughts, and substance use Inner conflict about wanting to make your relationship with a narcissist work and needing to leave (((I CAN SEE/TELL - ALL OF THOSE))) 10 Stages of Healing After Narcissistic Abuse While each person’s experience of recovery from narcissistic abuse is different, there are reports of many similarities that present in a series of ten stages.3,4,5 Here are ten common stages of healing after narcissistic abuse: 1. Denial: Initial Feeling That Something Is “Off” Many people don’t realize that they’re dealing with a narcissist or are victims of narcissistic abuse. Instead, their process of recovery begins with a nagging feeling that something is not right in the relationship.6 They might get a sense that they are being mistreated or just feel like something is wrong or bad in the relationship, especially after a conflict. They might have moments of clarity when they recognize that the narcissist’s behavior is unacceptable or even abusive, but often remain in denial by making excuses. For example, they might chalk it up to the person having a bad day, being under a lot of stress, or cite examples of times when the person has been loving or kind to them. Denial is common in the early stages of recovery from narcissistic abuse.3,5,6 2. Shock & Confusion: Suspicions of Abuse Begin to Surface Eventually, there may come a time when the abuse or narcissism is so bad that it is almost impossible for the person to remain in denial. The initial recognition that the person may be a narcissist or that they may be the victims of abuse is difficult to accept. It often comes with shock, confusion, and cognitive dissonance.3,4,5,7 Cognitive dissonance is the uncomfortable experience of knowing something is wrong or bad while also resisting acceptance. This can lead to an inner conflict where the person might go back and forth between blaming the narcissist and blaming themselves.4,7 This period can go on for a while, but usually ends in acceptance, marking the transition to the next stage. 3. Identification: Recognizing & Naming the Narcissistic Abuse Eventually, the back-and-forth settles into a final recognition that the person is a narcissistic abuser. This difficult insight might come after the person does research on narcissism or narcissistic abuse, or after they open up to someone else about the abuse.5 Acknowledging and naming the abuse is an important turning point because it makes it almost impossible to return to a state of denial. (((ABCD, YOU ARE HERE:))) Still, it is common for people to believe that the narcissist in their life can change, recover, and stop being abusive. They may even try to “save” the relationship by seeking counseling or encouraging the narcissist to do so. These efforts rarely succeed, and often leave the person with no other option than to move to the next stage of separation. 4. Separation: Distance & Separation From the Abuser Eventually, victims of narcissistic abuse realize that the narcissist in their life is either unwilling or unable to change, and that it is up to them to summon the strength to leave. This may begin as a “trial separation,” “break,” or just “taking space” from the abuser by limiting contact. This usually triggers a cycle of love bombing, narcissistic rage, and more abuse.1,6 (((ABCD, YOU ARE EXECUTING AN EMOTIONAL SEPARATION, MEANING, SAME EFFECT. HENCE THE LOVE-BOMBING.))) ((**Have you been limiting interaction, Jae? And has she tried majorly soft-soaping and sucking-up to you because of it?... He can't get full-blown ragey at you because of your dad's presence and proven wilingness to protect you (I presume?))) Eventually, it will become clear to the person that they need to cut ties and end the relationship with the narcissist. ((You can't yet, so this is about emotionally distancing yourself and limiting interaction to the barest minimum without appearing rude, e.g. you're working on a project online.)) This can be an ugly, painful experience, especially for those who had close relationships, shared assets, children, or other ties. In these cases, it’s common for the narcissist to become vengeful and cruel, sabotaging the person, leveraging legal or financial action, or finding other ways to enact revenge.4 (...(**It sound like you have been keeping your distance, because - you sound like you've just arrived here:)) 5. Complicated Grief: Emotional Turmoil Including Anger, Guilt, & Sadness (((ABCD: ...AND ALSO, HERE...AND A BIT OF 6. (the stages aren't always neatly in-order))))) After separation, it’s common for a person healing from narcissistic abuse to experience complicated grief or complex post-traumatic stress disorder (CPTSD).5,7 Unlike a “normal” process of mourning, complicated grief often involves a mix of emotions including anger, guilt, longing, and sadness. These conflicting feelings can make it difficult to really grieve the loss, accept that the relationship is over, and feel a sense of closure.7 These feelings might be further complicated by lasting fears about what the narcissist will do next in an attempt to hurt them.The best case scenario is often when the narcissist “discards” the person, going no-contact with them; but this also makes it hard to grieve and get closure. Because of their stunted emotional and social abilities, it’s almost impossible to have a healthy separation from a narcissist.6 6. Education: Finding Information & Support to Understand the Abuse ((NOTE)) For many people who recently cut ties or ended a relationship with an abusive narcissist, education is a key part of their recovery process. Learning more about narcissism and narcissistic abuse from self-help books, support groups, or articles online can help them make sense of their experiences.3,5 For many people, research connects them to other survivors who have had similar experiences with narcissistic abuse. This can be very validating, and can help people in recovery find support while also helping them understand and make sense of the abuse.3,4,5 This process can empower abuse survivors, while also helping them find closure and move towards the next stage of healing. 7. Recovery: Self-care & Healing the Wounds of Narcissistic Abuse The next stage in recovery after narcissistic abuse is finding skills, outlets, supports and self-care strategies that help them begin to heal the lasting wounds of abuse. In this stage, people learn ways to reconnect with their own feelings, wants, and needs. This often involves learning to love themselves and practice better self-care, putting themselves first.3,5 Narcissistic people tend to minimize, ignore, or violate the feelings, wants, and needs of other people, which can cause victims to disconnect from themselves. This stage of healing is all about rewiring these inner connections and learning to honor and validate their feelings and needs through self-care.3,4,5 ((You're in the process of re-wiring right now. These stages commonly can overlap chronologically or randomly.)) 8. Restoration: Reclaiming Independence & Rebuilding Their Life Narcissistic people are known for guilting and coercing others into devoting most of their time and energy into meeting their needs while neglecting their own.8 They also tend to be highly controlling, using abusive tactics to try to control what they do, how they behave, where they go, and who they see.1,2,4 Many people in romantic relationships with a narcissist have developed codependent patterns, and have devoted their lives to taking care of others while neglecting themselves.7 This is why it’s so important for a person in recovery from narcissistic abuse to work on rebuilding a life of their own design. This process involves rebuilding a meaningful life based on the things they want, need, and care about. For example, some people may decide to go back to school, change careers, or pursue their own passions and interests. For many, this stage also involves rebuilding a support system of people who are capable of having healthy, reciprocal relationships. This step is the key to moving beyond the abuse and towards a more hopeful, fulfilling, and meaningful life.3,5 9. Meaning-making: Finding Meaning In the Abuse & Getting Closure At this stage, most people feel like they’ve healed the emotional wounds. They no longer feel plagued by grief or find themselves struggling daily with the aftermath of the abuse. For some, getting to this point is enough, but others feel the need to go further. They often describe the next step in their healing process as finding meaning from the pain of their experiences.4,5 This doesn’t mean they’re glad that they were abused or grateful for the relationship with the narcissist. It just means that they acknowledge that there were ways in which this experience made them stronger or wiser, or served as a catalyst that has improved their quality of life. For example, many people describe that their recovery process led them to develop more insight, healthier boundaries, or even self-love.3 10. Paying it Forward: Finding Ways to Give Back or Help Others A final step in the process of moving from victim to survivor to thriver is finding ways to pay it forward by helping other victims or using their experience to make a positive impact. Some people who have overcome narcissistic abuse go on to start blogs, support groups, or other resources aimed at helping advocate for and empower other victims.3 Others find smaller and more personal ways to pay it forward. For example, they may teach their children about healthy boundaries and relationships, support a friend who is in an abusive relationship, or share their own experiences with others going through something similar. When it comes to how to move on after narcissistic abuse, these are ways of getting closure. ________________________________________________________________________________- ABCD - READ IT OVER AND OVER. IT'S CONSCIOUS YOU, TELLING INNER ANIMAL/WARRIOR YOU (which demands repetition) and how you get a definite reply (...dreams....or waking up with a relieved, Eureka type of feeling...clarity and a decision with a "aww, fckit, I'm just gonna do it and who cares what happens...I just know I can't live like this any more!" attitude. If you DON'T get that, then your inne2r warrior, as I say, has its own plans (probably because you - the FRONT doorman, is too much of a Gentleman on the outside (- mutineered by your inner ape who stands for far less than you, in order to remove you from the dangerous situation....like reports of the mother/father who suddenly, 'magically', can lift an entire car off her toddler. HOW? Answer: there are two of you doing the lifting and BOTH have their reserve tanks activated). Things are quite simple when you really think about them, aren't they. It's EMOTIONS that make everything feel so complicated. You're a catch. Even if you're not conventionally good-looking - you're very attractive. She's not. She should be stepping-up, aspiring to be LIKE you, not trying to reduce you to her (secret) level and, when you proffer a rescuing arm, trying to pull her into her permanent, muddy hole WITH her (WHICH IS WHAT THEY DO WHEN THEY DEEP-DOWN KNOW THEY CANNOT-CANNOT CHANGE!). SEE THIS (and - yawn! - reverse the genders). Over and over until you get it. It's the dance you're doing RIGHT NOW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWZGAExj-es (Powerful stuff) Anyway. You're safe whatever. I've got ya. :) I'll TELL you if you need to panic or suffer the guilts, no worries.

Elastic Heart Lyrics: And another one bites the dust Oh, why can I not conquer love? And I might've thought that we were one Wanted to fight this war without weapons And I wanted it, and I wanted it bad But there were so many red flags Now another one bites the dust Yeah, let's be clear I'll trust no one You did not break me I'm still fighting for peace I've got thick skin and an elastic heart But your blade it might be too sharp (((NOTE))) I'm like a rubber band until you pull too hard I may snap and I move fast (((YOU CERTAINLY DO))) But you won't see me fall apart 'Cause I've got an elastic heart I've got an elastic heart Yeah, I've got an elastic heart And I will stay up through the night Let's be clear, won't close my eyes And I know that I can survive I'll walk through fire to save my life And I want it, I want my life so bad I'm doing everything I can Then another one bites the dust It's hard to lose a chosen one You did not break me I'm still fighting for peace I've got thick skin and an elastic heart But your blade it might be too sharp I'm like a rubber band until you pull too hard I may snap and I move fast But you won't see me fall apart 'Cause I've got an elastic heart (((ETC., ETC.))) 'Cause I've got an elastic heart I've got an elastic heart

Want to expand on this, briefly. (...yeah, right, haha) ""Honestly since I said what I said at the weekend I feel a whole lot better. I'm just still not sure if I can hold my promise to not change my mind, I'm seeing the changes but has time ran out now and it's too little too late." / "Yup."" The trouble IS...suddenly, they're behaving themselves...possibly even perfectly, like the person you first met and 'honeymooned' with. Obviously they're doing it by-rote (just saying/doing what they know you want to hear/see); you can sense it...plus the switch is too sudden, meaning, took no effort(!). And this gives you space and calm...whereupon this conclusion inevitably pops in: 'Yooooou b***ard.... All those traumatic arguments, all that shoddy and downright nasty, tortuous treatment, FOR BLOODY YEARS... and ALL ALONG, YOU COULD HAVE BEEN CONTROLLING YOURSELF LIKE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW, YOU F***ING FAKE! YOU'VE BEEN DOING IT DELIBERATELY!' You can't UN-see and UN-hear all their, for-too-long, crap, can you... like the wooden fence analogy. Nor their over-miraculous transformation. And that's when you go, 'RrrrrrrrIGHT!', as the gloves fall off, and either consciously JOIN your inner animal ('let's do it!') OR fail to struggle when you're mutineered (you feel like you're in a dream, is how you recognise it, and that you've been body-snatched...which you have). NEVER underestimate your survival instinct. It's the greatest drive of all. Eg. one can REALLY WANT to just top themselves, but JUST CAN'T. Exactly. Inner Animal, whence that instinct comes from, doesn't agree and knows it's not necessary. (I also call it, your Inner Wisdom. And Sia calls it, having an Elastic Heart.) (Quite brief?....yay - gold star for me for a change!)

Thanks again for the help. The payment has been made after a chat. She asked me if I saw her as the mother of my children and I said yes. Had a chat about the stuff we need to work on. That's £5k in total that has been paid and don't have to pay any till October. Just waiting to see what happens really and like you said on the last chance, or to see if it slips back to neglecting. Had a look at the Terms and conditions and if the wedding is canceled then people get 80% of the room money back. I asked her what if we don't make it and she reassured me to try and not be negative.but if it were to be cancelled then we would pay everyone extra 20% as it's not their fault. Everytime I wanna step away and promise myself I will I don't, then when I don't I regret not, but when I have the opportunity to I can't. I don't think my self esteem is very high. But I'm also hoping for the best like you said one last chance sort of thing.

I think you are right I'm 5 and 6 in the steps right now

I know my mate is going to be disappointed that I'm still in it after whinging to him, feel a bit disingenuous to everyone and myself but hopefully I'll get through that.

"So do you think I should continue with the engagement and give one last chance? Not for her benefit, but for yours - absolutely. As your baseline reason, I mean. OWN OXYGEN MASK ON *FIRST*. She might lose the plot in church and show her arse to E-VER-Y-ONE. No explanations would be needed then, would they. (Cheers for the mass demonstration, luv!). If it cures her - fantastic, who'd have thunk? Win with Bonus -v- Win but no Bonus....or not the one you thought you wanted, anyway ("You can't always get what you want, but you get what you NEED"). I think you need to go with your own flow...watch what your feet make you do. I mean, you didn't plan the "downing of tools" re picking the DJ, did you. It just happened (matey had the steering-wheel because Conscious You was distracted by the fact it didn't want to be there - plus trying to read the choices - so your inner ape seized his chance to make you blurt it all out. And that's why you felt better. Pairbonding happens on very ancient wiring. Conscious We never DO have any control, we just take credit. I mean, how do people think deaf and blind people experience attraction? Answer: chemistry...the code that your ancient animal is fluent in. "As I promised myself before Christmas that this was the last chance and been hoovered again." Yeah. So are even the psychiatrists, psychoanalysts, mental-health nurses, therapists who are fully-versed in these parasite-predators! So what is it makes you think YOU'RE so special? Hahaha. We don't fall for people with our intellect, do we. It's chemistry. It's intellectual but in an animal, split-second, code-reading way. The reasons we try to give people for why we fancy them ("and she loves playing chess, too!") rarely have a thing to do with it....just bonuses. ...Sniff...Phwooar....Now let's see if you're healthy and easy to get along with. This is my most personal mantra: "So they love me. But WHAT loves me?!". "The financial side of things, she has always earnt more than me an does pay more for anything she wants to do but I can't fully afford my half." Thought so. Financial Abuse (tick!) including Exploitation. Yes - define 'half' when the other person may earn twice as much. VERY typical of a Covert, Vulnerable or not. You'll definitely be better-off afterwards. You'll be surprised (dismayed) at how much it slowly dawns on you, how much she cost you, forced you to pay (or else Be Rude (oh noo)), encouraged you to pay ("Yeah, come on - let's eat-out - it's fine, we can go halves"). But, like you say - YOU don't WANT to eat-out; it's her! You'd rather spend your money on, say, ten-pin. Or just save it. Half, my arse. Yours is SUCH a common scenario. It's subtle and missable for the fact they're constantly keeping your mind over-busy. It's two-thirds you, one third her! But conning/brainwashing is done via 'sneaking incorrect terms in' and repetition ("Half...half-half-half!"). You just don't have TIME to notice and pick them up over every single little bloody thing - and there always IS something they're doing/failing to do that you're having to tend to or fend-off or defend yourself against..... uhf...so high-maintenance...exhausting. You get to the point where they've said something ELSE to put you on-guard and you think - Can't we just have ONE conversation where you don't try to push my buttons to start another bloody altercation!?...just ONE?!...for bloody ONCE?! (Answer: No.) You end up with LITERALLY no spare time for yourself! And it gets harder and harder, especially if you have REAL kids (whom they end up resenting and being jealous of, being one of the kids themselves). "I see what you mean about closure though it gives me the basis to say I gave all the chances I could." YES. "But I just keep getting this sinking stomach feeling whenever she mentions the wedding and payments." Yes. That's the price for getting everything instantly back that she beat out of you while also bursting her massive bubble of delusion as catalyses her running to a therapist and thereby getting herself a chance. It's Performance Anxiety. But like I say: you don't have any deadline now. So if on the day, you can't say no - we're onto annulling it. Simples! What matters is that you won't any longer be psychologically trapped for fearing leaving her would make you a nasty person. You KNOW you've warned her - and you have the evidence here to show anyone. You've done the right thing - given her a (nother!) chance (come onn - she's had loads).... so following-through with the tacit but glaring consequence (hers), by ending the relationship, is excuseable and becomes the ONLY RIGHT, SENSIBLE AND UNSELFISH thing to do. Were it me, I'd nutshell it with, 'I finally couldn't ignore the evidence that the woman didn't even LIKE me!'.

"The payment has been made after a chat. She asked me if I saw her as the mother of my children and I said yes. Had a chat about the stuff we need to work on." You said YES? Were you fibbing/fobbing? (Surely you'd at least want her to undergo therapy first?! She's not exactly a great Lover, is she. Kids are FAR more sensitive/bruisable than adults! Jeez...you need to read up on this part onwards.) "That's £5k in total that has been paid and don't have to pay any till October." Oh, PLENTY of time - brilliant! In fact, far too long to keep her enormous-and-always-gagging-to-burst-out arse contained. What may well happen is, she behaves with you but picks someone ELSE to act as her toxins-vomiting toilet, to help her keep said arse contained! After all, that's one of the things you were always intended to be for (they need to ensure they're 'out of vomit' before facing "their public", to ensure they don't do it in front of them (and BANG would go their image and reputation) (Malignant NPDs treat everyone else better than you, which is totally arse-about face). Can you think of someone she'd see as a likely candidate for stand-in 'whipping boy'? (Stay alert on that one, so you'll get wind of it.) "Just waiting to see what happens really and like you said on the last chance, or to see if it slips back to neglecting." THERE you go - you've got it. :) You're keeping your options open so as to find out for SURE-sure-sure (equals no regrets) if she's beyond help: (a) escape, (b) stay (if she proves she can 99& of the time behave herself like an adult (if they were forced to act PAST the point they usually do - it would 'take' and would then start to re-wire them back again...repetition forms HABIT, and with every subsequent reptition, it 'sinks' down to your inner animal's functioning level (now a kind of instinct)...and, when THINGS change, feelings change, and thinking, attitudes, beliefs...). The only question would be, have you got the patience. It does take them far longer to learn, even from experience, which is why they need a big consequence (big impact). If they can't even learn from punishment, however, then they're basically a zombie already. All sick inner animal (but like an ape, can mimic like a pro!) and no Conscious person on top (where all the VITALLY HUMAN-BEING/HUMAN-COOPERATIVE stuff comes from and, again, is why we still exist AND became so advanced compared to all othe mammals. Combining satisfying emotional considerations with objective ones, is the definition of genuinely intelligent. It means your internal Mr Spock and Captain Kirk (left/right brain hemispheres) are best buds whose agendas now align (negotiation and compromise))....so it's like you can do, one conclusion fits all scenarios whereby everyone and everything is satisfied, nothing left out. Spock's stupid without Kirk and Kirk definitely is foolish without Spock. Innit. But as a team - woah! Her little Kirk got crippled or killed. (OR DID IT. Experiment commenced). It'll be an highly educational experience for you, should raise your iQ by at least 15 points in that one hit (a Raising of Consciousness), raise your confidence INDELIBLY/IRREVERSIBLY....and the rest (I'd be here all day!)...OH, WAIT - yes...and better-looking plus sexier. Have you ever experienced astounding yourself? "Had a look at the Terms and conditions and if the wedding is canceled then people get 80% of the room money back." PRAISE DEE LAWD! "I asked her what if we don't make it and she reassured me to try and not be negative.but if it were to be cancelled then we would pay everyone extra 20% as it's not their fault." Sounds good (obviously was YOUR suggestion), but what's this "we" business? What - Halves again? (Careful now.She's tellign you what you want to hear, remember?...Love-Bombing. Little Miss Pleasant, Understanding & Reasonable is in the building and on the stage...UNDER YOUR SPOTLIGHT.) "Everytime I wanna step away and promise myself I will I don't, then when I don't I regret not, but when I have the opportunity to I can't. I don't think my self esteem is very high." Yes. I know. Read yourself again. You'll note you've basically TWICE said - every time I decide to, I can't (so I don't). It's not the right opportunity, then, is it. Listen (Ah weel say ziss onlee wance): I'VE DONE THIS. Alright? (tsk...drag it out of me, why doncha). But my overriding reason, looking back, is because, ultimately, he was just too damned fascinating, too rich in those ELUSIVE little weirdnesses that no language can really ever explain. Too tempting an opportunity. By which I obviously mean, KEEPING/FAILING TO DUMP, not choosing (no-one chooses a Narc). You need TIME to become certain 100% and not risk hanging an innocent as well as actually discovering something new and scientifically useful. And the more conscientious you are, the surer you have to be. ALL victims get speared by the Morbid Fascination hook! They make excuses, but, that's what it is, really, underneath it all. We humans only got where we are today BECAUSE we're INCREDIBLY CURIOUS. And it explains everything and everyone from your past (especially your teachers). And you can eventually spot one from ten paces. ...All that's left to go on is the cape! And the more intelligent and curious you are, the harder it is to walk away from such a ground-shaking, very RARE experience. You might even discern something that no-one else before has ever spotted! You could even write a book about it all! "But I'm also hoping for the best like you said one last chance sort of thing." EXACTLY. The common wisdom is that it's a waste of time ("people have already tried that and it doesn't work") so don't even bother, just dump. But the only way to KNOW if something can't be done or not, is to change the Doer or type of Doer and see if the result is the same as all that went before OR whether that slight change to a (rare) partner who has the correct elements, achieved different results. In this instance (which is heavy on Alchemy) it wouldn't be true to say something's 'impossible' until EVERY individual partner on the planet's tried it. ...in which case, 'you may as well - while yer down there, anyway?' (keeping your conscience too clean for post-dump guilt). So, really, it's as equally you giving YOU a last chance. Seriously...TECHNICALLY - the shock would be tantamount to getting shoved out of a plane without a parachute but then landing on a mountain of feathers. Near Death Experience ("Narc Petit Mort"). They've snapped people out of a lot of things (e.g. surviving cancer)...changed life attitudes and religions... (hence The Dunking Chair (before it got abused)). Well, they either come out of it changed for the better, or for the worse. But you get to see the real them, and no arguing. You've just never handed-over to your inner human psychopath before, that's the trouble. You don't have the experience of him to know to have total faith in him. Well... like I say, he seems to be doing fine already. Because REALLY THINK ABOUT IT: You, a person, is trying to make something you already know how to make: a decision. But no matter how you try - you just can't. Never mind WHAT you're trying. Just the fact that...you seem not to be in control of yourself - and to a huge degree whereby someone as stubborn as you can't exert sufficiently to wrest back control. And yet these failures have an intelligent and clear path and clear outcome to them. How does THAT work? Hey! Maybe you come from a long line of no-nonsense therapists and, before them, wise people of the woods (therapists)??? It doesn't MATTER what I say, anyway. Us SAYING hasn't worked. Logically, therefore, NOT saying is the thing that WILL. FYI, you're mutineered already. It's actually - you're not THE ONE in control of yourself/where you're headed. HE is. And he won't let ya...not by hook or by crook. He knows better in this situation than you. And your Super-Ego has since sided with him, after the pair having held heavy negotiation talks over whether to do it cruelly or in a cruel-to-be-kind way, and ditto for what end aim. It's clever isn't it. Not exactly perceptible, though. It's AFTER the whole event (once your ape has ensured you're 100% safe) that you 'review the tapes' and (taking credit haha) go, 'WTF? That was me! What was I thinking?! But wow! Talk about genuis planning and executing! F*CK, I'm clever?!) What shall we call him? You'll want do that because, if you google something like "Super-Nova Empath versus Narcissist", you'll see that what earns you that title is not the 'taking them on and winning' bit, but the fact that you had the EXTRA balls to *NOT* all embarrassedly and shamefully stuff him back in the basement. He becomes your ever-present bodyguard and best friend, you see. HE then sniffs them out at 10 paces AND IMMEDIATELY TELLS YOU by "giving you that feeling" you now so recognise. And REGARDLESS - any narc that comes near you is going to smell your scarier (healthiier = bigger, fitter, more cunning) animal and give YOU a wide berth! Trust me on that. You'll appreciate what a wasted resource he's been all these years and how INCOMPLETE you unwittingly had been. It's no good being nice without the capability to be scary - BOTH genders and ALL persuasions! - because the nicer and more giving you are, the more you attract Narcs (GIANT TAKERS!). Sorry if I'm bending your mind but - is this making sense to you? But, basically, "Nice little boys/girls don't hit!". FAAACK ORRRFF. Nice? NICE? Who's got time to be NICE when a sodding feral predator's coming at you! Who SAID you have to be nothing BUT nice?! What - the same bunch that insisted the world was flat? (Yeah. It's called leaving the masses useless for standing-up for themselves enough to save their own lives/sanities!) So - comme ci, comme ca! No losing now. But understandably, you're going to be nervous. Even that's good, though. Nerves sharpen and heighten your performance by MILES - which is why Cowell doesn't take on contestants that are overly confident *already* (or else, even after the portion that's knocked off deliberately, they'll still have enough left NOT to have the aid of that all-important nervous energy). You need distractions. Do they work on you/Can you backburn?

PS: "I know my mate is going to be disappointed that I'm still in it after whinging to him, feel a bit disingenuous to everyone and myself but hopefully I'll get through that." Well, then - show him the relevant 'pages' from this thread! Easy-peasy Lemon-brain squeezy (and expandy). Here, I'll do it for you! ***Oy - Bro - WhatEverYerFace! I know you mean well, but - go get yerself an education before you go judging as if you do! ;p) 50p please :)

Anyway. How do you know he'll be disappointed? For all YOU know, you're going to either find yourself saying a (quiet - to the vicar) "I can't" and be immediately led, the pair of you, into the vestry, OR, you'll try to say "I Will" and it just won't come out, except for, "Er...Er......Er.....".

"Be who you are and say how you feel because those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind" (Dr Seuss) PS: Just TELL him - "I managed to lay down the law and get concrete promises on pain of HAVING HER ARSE FIRED". PPS: She's basically Duckface, isn't she. Course. That's what Duckface was.

Oh and PS: No, you don't have low self-esteem. Think about it. People in your position who didn't know their worth and that they therefore deserved, as well as owed it to themselves and their unborn offspring, to wait faithfully, patiently, for Better...those people wouldn't see a NEED to (what now?) COMPLAIN ABOUT THE 'BAD SERVICE' because they wouldn't feel short-changed. They're the brigade that, for example, go, 'Yeah, weeell, that's just men/women for ya...awww, s/he's a good man/woman REALLY...gotta take the rough with the smooth...and anyway, I'm not exactly perfect, either, so I can't talk!' (which it turns out, means, I don't always get the washing-up done by 10pm latest like s/he prefers (commands)). (Define 'rough'. What - razor-blade rough?...like Shark skin? Figures.)

Hey ABCD, How's things? She still behaving? And what did your friend say when you told him?

Hi. Thanks for checking in. Everything seems to be ok at the moment, she has actually started doing all the things I mentioned and trying. She's picked up a hobby of painting which I've been going on about for years to pick something up. We are going on holiday in May and have a few family things coming up so they should all go through ok. I feel a bit more relaxed. But still feel a bit distant and emotionally removed a lot of the time. Thank you

Hey-hey, soz for the lag! "Everything seems to be ok at the moment, she has actually started doing all the things I mentioned and trying. She's picked up a hobby of painting which I've been going on about for years to pick something up." Crikey, she really IS determined to get married, isn't she. Keep an eye on her because once your 'novelty' of checking wears off, they tend to drop it again, providing various lame excuses. It's something I've noticed with N-Spaths; they don't have interests, bar people (hosts). They don't even read books. Haven't got the staying power and even if they did, books are mainly all about imagining being in someone else's shoes...which NSs can't do...because that takes Empathy thus giving a shite about ANYONE other than themselves and their business (so can't be arsed). Let's see if she proves me wrong. Maybe she's intending to drop the facade again after you're married... And while I'm 'down here': how long after moving-in together was it, before she dropped the painting (and whatever else - pls mention). "We are going on holiday in May and have a few family things coming up so they should all go through ok." Fingers Crossed. Where are you going - what sort of holiday is it? Beach-worshipping, activity-based, cultural touring...? Who chose the destination and who agreed? "I feel a bit more relaxed." YES. Because you've realised you're safe and have all the power (contrary to what she and her smoke & mirrors shennanigans try to convince you), "But still feel a bit distant and emotionally removed a lot of the time." Yes. "I'm afraid" your shutters are coming down a little. That's where you are in the process. But is the experiment proving really engaging and interesting - or even fascinating? Are you secretly keeping notes? "Thank you" You're very welcome, mushtie. You're such a gentleman. :) HOWEVER... as aforementioned, you do have to keep acknowledging the reality in terms of meaning in the bottom-line distinguisher still here present, which is: No healthy-minded, fully working model - be they man OR woman - would be prepared to walk down the aisle with a man whom ALREADY, IN THE RUN-UP has confessed that he isn't sure, therefore doesn't feel ready, and done so (when you look at your ACTIONS, including, that she noticed you weren't acting excited or that interested (IN YOUR OWN WEDDING). She's not just prepared, still. She's gagging. And she hasn't managed to convince you that she genuinely loves you...so that's not her reason. I think it's her chosen next 'job'. Gagging to get married to a man whom, she is well aware (which state of affairs is thanks to her, but let's ignore that bit) isn't even sure he loves her enough to marry her. Gagging to marry a man who clearly doesn't feel the same. "I couldn't continue the engagement and marriage preparations because I could tell he wasn't interested and, worse, was acting more like he had a date with the guillotine". You're not into IT You're not into her. But she's still obsessed with doing it. So obsessed, she's re-taken up a hobby - JUST "LIKE THAT!" - pretty instantly - proving she could have been doing that any time. THE PAINTING IS A PROP, is my suspicion. Narcs are genuii with words; WORDS are their props. But NSpaths, less so (can't be arsed when there are props to be had, hence); they need actual, props. (Hobbies/interests, fake X-rays, fake ID...put it this way: mine made jewellery (like I used to, funny that). Didn't make a single bloody thing from the minute he moved in. See "Fangtall's" thread and you'll see his father using his artistic bent ONLY as a fake front, and dropping it once it's worked. She doesn't MIND painting, is the truth. And we know that because she's doing what a female NSpath DOES when their parter-for-life-to-be has huge reservations: ignores that huge red flag and carries on dragging him to the alter. She's NOT WORRIED about her own feelings, including emotional health, potential trauma, all of that.... That's why a Normal would have run, long before now. Those things that NTs wish to protect, don't apply here. Because (1) merely, she's crow-bar-ing herself a however-long job, and (2) she's nothing like Normal. Because SHE KNOWS...she's A PREDATOR. Predators aren't at all concerned for their own safety and welfare when up against their prey. So keep your eye on this: Until SHE says she's not brave enough to proceed with the nuptuals, knowing your heart isn't in it, to the point you're dreading it, to the point it was giving you anxiety.... until she says that - she's an NSpath and it's already over. BUT... we know that. Well, you don't - not 100%. And you need to be sure - hence this 'last chance'. Plus you've got a live one AND the power of mind to be playing psychological field researcher. :) But THAT would be the proof that she's normal and healthy enough to even have a relationship with, let alone commit to that relationship for the rest of your life until you're dying day. Because it's what the marriageable type DO. You would, wouldn't you. So would I. So would ANYONE with a modicum of self-respect and for whom self-respect were "a thing". Let's keep watching her space. And please do share about any things that have dawned on you or that you've freshly noticed have been going on, either above or under your radar? Any of those tiny signs of selfishness, like, reaching for the last biscuit without asking you if you mind...ASKING to borrow something of yours...those sorts of considerate, loving touches. Anything at all? I mean, she's taken up painting, sure. But that's an activity. So what about the log-able details of how differently or not she's been behaving towards you and treating you?

Hola! Anything to report? What's the latest?