Proposal ultimatum / am I overthinking / or in toxic relationship?

Hi, So I've been in a relationship for 3.5 years. Upa and downs of course. Though for a while now I've been feeling trapped/ stressed, so been doing research and I don't think I am respected and maybe with someone with a narcissistic tendencies. I feel I have been love bombed and then screamed at. My needs have not been met for the last few years, loads of little things that I've asked for help with,asked for changes and it's future faking with promises that never came. 95% of the time she gets her way, I have been shut down, her mother barely acknowledges me as part of the relationship and tries to take over. I've been screamed at for not proposing multiple times in the past, due to working away, however I did agree by the end of the year after being given an ultimatum to do so or leave. So just before Christmas we had a hard conversation in which I said I am not ready to propose for a few reasons, I can't get over the way she has treated me in the past (not that I said this but I feel trauma bonded), all the empty promises. So agreed by the end of the year and did so on NYE ( after hours of panic shopping for a ring). Part of the discussion was that we didn't need to plan/ book anything for the wedding but it would progress the relationship and give a chance to fix and work through things. I'm now looking at a wedding venue 2 months prior to the agreed date to start looking and it's been only a month. Only a few things have been honoured that discussed, for example her helping to cook, this has been a on going issue as no matter how tired I am I still have to do it and haven't had help for years, she has cooked maybe 5 times since Nye which is more than the previous few months. She promised to not hold resentment for the ultimatum and that it took longer than she wanted for me to propose, though has thrown it out as a passive aggressive comment during a disagreement. I'm not perfect and there are things I need to work on too for example I need to validate feelings, however I shut down when screamed at and react. I really need some help as I am panicking about progressing with the wedding, but she will be crushed if I want to hold off and will most likely leave. I am very avoidant personality type, but feel like I am going through motions, and have major anxiety about this situation. Thank you in advance for any advice.

You never once mentioned your love for her in your post; you haven't indicated if you guys share values & goals & what attracted you to her in the first place? People in love always share with others what's good about their relationship even when they go pear shaped. Ask yourself just what keeps you with this woman? Is it her mother ignoring you? Is it the screaming at you & her immature demands? Do you like being 'kicked around' by a bullying individual who happens to be your partner of 3.5 years? & she will never work through your relationship issues if she causes them. Why would you race around to buy a ring & get married just to keep her happy when she's already knocked you down & trod on you repeatedly. You're either a glutton for punishment or you can't see the forest for the trees. Who cares if this woman is a narcissist or whatever, it's come to the stage now that your gut is screaming at you that your relationship IS a toxic farce because you let it be one. You have made the choice to be with someone who disrespects you badly & basically exploits you daily. Her promises to you mean bloody nothing because she's loyal to herself & no one else...no one. People like your partner will always find another poor soul to manipulate & control but you don't have to ruin your life by hanging around to cop more abuse. Stop your panicking & take control of your life because you deserve to be happy & you deserve to be respected as all of us do when in a loving & sharing relationship. Be kind to yourself...get out & never look back, ever.

Thank you for you're response. She does of course have good qualities,she really understands and helps my mental health and supports me a lot through that. She has finally taken on board some of what I said and I have seen a change, after I have proposed, which she kept saying "I'll do these things when you propose. I keep having severe panic attacks about all this and the wedding as we have now booked a venue, no money spent yet, but due tomorrow. I asked if we needed to book but she said it had to be there and on a specific date. I had a panic attack about the amount of money it would cost as I think it is too much, she is willing to spend more to have what she wants and is not forcing me to pay more necessary. We spoke earlier and she calmed me down but when I'm in my own head I panic and need to be convinced to go through with it. I can't sleep, I can't break her heart but I cannot get over the numb feeling and the length of time my needs where not met before I had to propose to get her to listen. I don't know what to do we can pay a deposit and gives me a week to seek professional help. Through cognitive behaviour therapy. More recently she has said she doesn't want me talking about the relationship outside of It like to friends and stuff as they may have a bias, though she also doesn't talk outside the relationship to be fair, I have convinced her that I need to be able to do that, because of my mental health problems I need to ask other couples questions and make sure it's not me making mountains out of mole hills. I think you are right that my guy is telling me something, but I am racked with guilt. Thank you

'when someone shows you who they really are, you best believe them'... is some of the finest advice on offer. Listen to your gut, it's talking to you & forget your guilt which has come from your partner screaming at you for 3.5 years about not meeting her standards. You need to ask yourself just what values & standards you guys share & what about goals? Do you really want & need to get married to a woman who controls you? Of course she doesn't want you talking to others because she wants to isolate you from your friends etc - it's typical behaviour of a controller.

Agree entirely, and - "I'll do these things when you propose." Woah. Yes, that is Narcissistic thinking, and to a fairly concerning degree. Twisted a full 180 Degrees. A normal-healthy would see it as the opposite: My partner has this/that complaint, whilst I have this/that about him - let's both fix and elevate the relationship thus put the willingness back in. Whereas, SHE sees it this way: I'm not going to cease beh<ving in ways that actually kick the love out of you, you have to just pretend I haven't and commit to me anyway, whilst ceasing irritating me by being you and what comes naturally. See it? It won't get better. It never gets better. It gets worse and worse. So - NOOOO, would be my advice. Why would ANYONE want to commit to that pervasive pattern of abusive treatment in their life? So WHAT if she has good days? They all do. But after a while (drip-drip), the bad chasmically outweighs the good and you feel nothing but hated and held in contempt, making it the opposite of a love relationship. Right now, though (because your emotions have a lot of catching up to do), I'd be insisting on couples counselling first. Just to see if she cooperated or managed to gaslight the therapist.

And anyway - what kind of woman would want to have to pressgang her partner into marrying her? Think about what it says on BOTH sides. Normal, healthy women wouldn't. But then, normal-healthy women wouldn't kick the love out of you in the first place; they'd 99% keep cuddling it into you.

PS: The male Narcs or overly narcissistic males scream at you as well. Sooo ridiculous and inappropriate and yet at the same time, so disturbing, so 'unreal'. Yeesh, don't get me started.

Here's something important and often overlooked, though: Let's say they cause an argument, which they make as traumatic for you as possible - every other Saturday night. Aww, that's not so baaad? Yes it is. It is when you remember to take into account that after a traumatic "argument" you can find it takes you a whole week to recover. NOW do the Maths. On behalf of myself and all other past victim-survivors: PLEASE don't marry her. Ok?

Hi all, Thank you for the advice. I am giving it a chance and have booked a venue and am starting to pay towards the wedding. We do not have to pay much until April, so if things slip back into normal behaviour then I will have to call it I think. I have opened up a lot more and she has managed to calm me down and reassure me on the costs and that it doesn't have to be 50/50 that if she wants it to be more expensive then she will pay more towards it. I have given it a chance and myself some time to fully reflect on my decision and the relationship. Though I can't help but think you are exactly saying what my gut is telling me. I have been researching this sort of thing and have come across both sides of the arguments, apparently most marriages start with an ultimatum, but they also often build resentment. Thanks again for the help.

Does she normally follow-through with doing what she said she'd do? I thought one of the major problems is that she moreover, consistently doesn't. The real reason you're giving it another chance is because it feels too daunting and difficult to end it, so soon as all this, when you've only too recently started waking.up and actually realising (from your tolerance bucket having overflowed and the noise jolted you). On average, it takes the victim-partner of an abusive Narcissist seven whole times to leave AND STAY LEFT. Narcs don't end it with you. You must have wondered to yourself: How come if she hates me so much - or, put it this way - CAN hate me so much AND so frequently, she doesn't end our relationship....why does she go further and try to talk me out of it whenever I feel I've 'had it'? Have you researched that bit? They can hate you secretly all, or even just more than half, the time. But that won't make them end it. Because they still need you (google Primary Supply) for whatever perks, bonuses, conveniences, favours, unwitting manipulation-/impressions-management tool (e.g. respectability by-association), for-free. It doesn't bother them if they hate you. They don't care, they just want to feel superior to you and use you, and take their ever-self-generating bad/weird moods out on you as their personal dumping-ground/toxins toilet. (BTW, what does she get for-free because of you? Or alternatively, if she's a straight Covert, what financial dependence has she allowed you to grow on her or, even encouraged, whereby now if you do leave you'll be the one left worse-off?) So to-date, how many times, do you think, have you felt you actually wanted to end it? But, saying that: I do get that you're still under her and the 'relationship's' influence as keeps you in Cognitive Dissonance (she loves me, she loves me not, she hates me, no, it's fine she loves me...). It's very bad for your brain, though, so I'm glad you're reapproaching this last chance saloon, wearing your white coat, clipboard and pen....putting her on probation and watching her like a ruddy hawk for one more distinctly Narcy move. And meanwhile, you get to buy yourself time to keep getting your head around all of this - frankly, truthfully - MADNESS...that shouldn't exist. Good on ya, that's excellent thinking and shows you're not "too soft" or any of that crap. Just dizzy (reminds me: google Narcissist Victim - F.O.G). Keep studying. Also research about how healthy, mature (rational) adults do things, including would never dream of doing/behaving. There will be a deeper-down, contributory factor as to why you're in two minds over ending this 'relationship', though. Feeling like you had to pick a bit beneath you because X. It can be as simple as, Because I'm a smoker. Or because I've got a big scar on my bum. Anything. It can even be, too many toxics having told you you were a shite bf and you concluding that they can't all be wrong, despite they were over-demanding, controlling wotsits as well. Have a thinkipoos just in-case there's something down there hiding from you...maybe even from past treatment and attitudes, like schoolfriends...siblings... (PS: If you're not wanting to reply again just yet, just post each month to say Hi or give a quite update/status report in order to keep this thread active for if/when you need it again. Doing so will top-up your confidence majorly as you rememmber that you have "secret weapons/shields" at your disposal. Like an Emergency Call Button.

Trouble is, though: what if she manages to keep her best (or angel) foot foward until the "I Do" and then suddenly feels finally safe and cocky to let it all hang out? I must admit, if it were me, I'd be the one ultimatum-ing (my right, through not being the childishly uncooperative trouble-maker and unfair/dirty fighter). I'd be saying, I clearly am not quite ready to get married per se so I'm going to need to delay the date by 6 months/whatever. I mean - if a couple are planning to spend the rest of their days together, and just want to be 'in the zone' rather than not, then, where's the fire anyway, what difference will another piddly 6 months make, compared to XX decades, day-in-day-out? A normal-healthy, non-overly narcissistic or actual NPD would rather you WERE ready than risk you blurting, I Don't, at the alter, just for the sake of another 6 piddly months of investment. One with insufficient investment, however, would be off. Because rushing the relationship, rushing intimacy via mostly just intensity/drama, hurriedly faking a bond from you to them, and basically rushing you all the way to the alter, is the biggest hallmark there is that you've got a malignant whose full a*se-spillage you simply have yet to see. If you can't manage this, then, you're going to have to try to set her hidden tests and challenges, to see what you get back and how normal/rational/healthy it is, or whether indicative of NPD traits and behaviours according to the expert websites. Getting married is easy. Getting out of one, not so much. But to a narc/Narc? Hell-on-a-stick. And that's if you even manage it. Those that do escape for-good are actually quite rare, still. And the poorer people are getting, thanks to Brexit/Covid/the world economic crisis, the harder it's getting. At least read up on how to handle a narcissistic spouse and see what you'd be signing-up for, yeh? Good luck, Soldier! (He's going over again). ;)

I'm not sure what demographic that statistic was based on - do you have the link? Meanwhile, I found this for you (and any lurkers in your same boat..... - lots, I imagine, if your statistic reference is up-to-date, jeez... what happened to 'start as you mean to go on', maturity, commonsense, hashing-out beliefs and rules even before getting engaged, all of that?, yeesh): ((my double-brackets and asterisks)) _____________________________________________________________________________________ https://www.huffpost.com/entry/do-marriage-ultimatums-work_n_5bc6789be4b0d38b5872bde0 Do Marriage Ultimatums Actually Work? Experts Weigh In. Telling your partner, "If we're not engaged by this date, we're done," might work. But is that really how you want to start your marriage? Last year, “Melanie” (not her real name) received a marriage proposal from “Jeff,” her boyfriend of seven years, that came with an ultimatum. Jeff had recently cheated on Melanie and then broken things off with her, but the two kept in contact because they had a big trip planned together the following month. Days before the trip, seemingly out of nowhere, Jeff popped the question to Melanie and gave her two choices: get married or cut off contact forever. Melanie told him she needed to think about it, especially given the recent rockiness in their relationship. “The way he did it made me feel so trapped,” she told HuffPost. “It made me cry inconsolably any time I was alone because he only gave me two options: marry him or not even be friends anymore. And he had been my best friend for nearly 20 years at this point.” For several months, they tried to make things work but ultimately called it quits earlier this year after Jeff became more and more controlling. Of course, not everyone who proposes a marriage ultimatum ― “If we’re not engaged or married by X date, we’re done” ― does so in such a blatantly manipulative manner. Some people are frustrated by a lack of forward momentum in the relationship and may feel that an ultimatum is their only choice (Spoiler alert: It’s not). Some people lack healthy communication skills and don’t know how else to get their point across. “Generally, ultimatums don’t yield a good outcome, but every situation is different,” psychologist and dating coach Samantha Rodman said. We asked marriage experts to explain why people issue marriage ultimatums, why they don’t typically work as intended and what to do instead. Why People Issue Marriage Ultimatums People who present their partner with a marriage ultimatum may do so in a misguided attempt to have their needs met in the relationship. They are caught between their desire to get married and their partner’s need for more time. But the way they go about it is what makes it problematic. “I think they want to respect their partner’s cold feet and want to give them the gift of time to make their decision,” psychologist Ryan Howes said. “But they also want to set a boundary to respect their own needs, so they set a date.” There may also be another more subconscious reason, according to Howes. Essentially, the person giving the ultimatum may be trying to avoid taking responsibility for their own life choices by giving all the decision-making power to their partner. “They want their partner to decide whether or not to propose because they haven’t taken stock of their own feelings about the relationship,” Howes said. In other words, the ultimatum comes from a place of doubt and forfeits the ultimatum-giver’s own agency. “The truly empowered person is aware of what they want and is able to ask for it,” Howes said. “This is the riskier option, but the more powerful one.” “Do you want to get married? Then how about telling your partner you’d like to get married and asking them what they want?” Howes suggested. “If they say no, or not right now, then the decision lies with you to stay or leave, knowing that the proposal may come in six months, or maybe never.” “The truly empowered person is aware of what they want and is able to ask for it,” Howes said. “This is the riskier option, but the more powerful one.” “Do you want to get married? Then how about telling your partner you’d like to get married and asking them what they want?” Howes suggested. “If they say no, or not right now, then the decision lies with you to stay or leave, knowing that the proposal may come in six months, or maybe never.” Then ask yourself if you’re willing to stick it out or not. “Do you want to wait? Yes? Then wait, and that’s your choice,” Howes said. “Do you want to leave and find someone else who is more certain? Then do that. Pushing your partner to make a decision is a way to sidestep your own power and decisiveness.” Why Ultimatums Don’t Work (At Least Not Well) Let’s say you tell your S.O. that if he or she doesn’t propose by next summer, you’re going to find someone who will. Hey, you might even scare or bully your partner into actually doing it. But is that really the way you want to start the next chapter of your relationship? “Nobody wants to feel threatened,” Rodman said. “However, again, if you are genuinely stating your boundaries and intentions, e.g. you want to get married before you’re 30 or you’re losing interest because of no marriage, then share those feelings with your partner.” And if your partner says no? “Be prepared to walk,” Rodman said. *****“Don’t use it as a manipulation tactic.”***** ******Howes said that if you feel giving an ultimatum is your only option, consider it a big red flag in the relationship. Marriage is about a lifetime of joint decision-making, discussions, debates and compromises. This is only the first of many big decisions that lie ahead.****** “If you are thinking of the ultimate power play of an ultimatum at the beginning of the relationship, how might that play out later on?” Howes said. “What if you disagree about kids, careers, money management, parenting, savings, and wills and trusts? Might it be better to work on clear communication and compromise from the very beginning than kick things off with a power play?” ******One point to highlight: There’s a big difference between standing up for what you want or need in a relationship and issuing an ultimatum. No one is asking you to sacrifice what’s truly important to you (in this case, marriage) ― it’s all a matter of how you express your needs.***** “If someone feels that they will genuinely move on if they don’t get married, then that is a truthful and honest thing to share,” Rodman said. “The ultimatum should not be fake, a threat you trot out but don’t mean.” And know that even if your partner does end up proposing, there may be lingering feelings of bitterness afterward. No one enjoys being backed into a corner. “Sometimes, I see a client who experienced this in their dating life, and they usually end up resenting it after the fact,” Rodman said. What To Do Instead The proper way to broach the subject is straightforward: State your case (“I’d like to be engaged by 33 because I want to be married before we start having kids”) and then ask your partner how they feel about it, Howes said. Listen to what they have to say and then decide for yourself if you’re willing to wait or if you need to move on. “I think the only discussion to have is, ‘I’d like to get married, would you?’” Howes said. “And when you hear the response, you make your own decision. Waiting for the other to determine your future is disempowering.” Get those notions of a totally surprise fairytale proposal out of your head. Your future together is something that should be discussed at length before you even think about getting engaged. If you or your partner are truly on the fence about what the future of the relationship looks like, it might be worth going to couples counseling to suss out your true feelings. “I would hope that a proposal is only a ceremonial formality to celebrate, and that the serious discussions about compatibility and desire and the future have been ongoing for some time,” Howes said. _____________________________________________________________________________________ ...Yuh. About "Deciding": deciding something that big (quitting an investment) (because it's LOSING you wealth, so to speak) is easily said - and not too difficultly done, by those caught merely in a union of significant Incompatibility. A Fauxlationship, on the other hand, where one partner is toxic and it's imperceptibly yet steadily becoming like they can barely tolerate you most of the time but are determined to keep keeping you in the game and bit-by-increasing-bit, SHOEHORNING, including (with your Malignant Coverts), HENPECKING you into the shape of person they actually want (i.e. a Submissive or downright Slave, Sychophant who dare not be anything less than utterly perfect in every single way thinkable, i.e. "Walking On Eggshells") - or just attacking you for daring to nicely state a request/complaint - this really erodes your confidence thus ability to make an at-the-time, *seemingly* too scary, potentally life-altering decision. So does the continuing pecking/tearing strips attempts:...Don't think that, don't do that, don't say that, don't ask me to do MY share of duties, "or else"....on and on and on. Even, I bet you're cheating on me!, when they know darn well you take pride in the fact you'd rather stick pins in your eyes.... (If you've THAT much to keep criticising me over, then clearly I'm not your One. And i certainly don't want to be yours or anyone's Constant Irritant that you "have to" put up with, when there are and have been too many others in my life that liked me just the way I am. So, off you go, then. Keys, please. :p) (Oh, you watch them panic and backpedal for all their worth when you try to say that pure logical! Out comes the, I didn't mean its...little realising that, that they could SAY AND GO TOO FAR, TOO OFTEN, AND EXPECT NO CONSEQUENCE, AND FEEL GREAT WHILE YOU FEEL DREADFUL, and too exhausted to talk any more, IS PRECISELY YOUR TOP PROBLEM WITH THEM, AARGH. It is SO GALLING when they're not fit to criticise you because they know nothing PLUS constantly do the bloody same type of thing themselves...oh, the gross hypocrisy...) The huge bond isn't any such thing. It's just your regular Addiction, this case, not to alcohol or Class A substances, but to the "trauma bonding with intermittent reinforcement (google), aka "narcissistic cycle of abuse"....lovely, horrid, lovely, horrid, sane, whacko, sane, whacko....repeat, repeat, repeat...one extreme to the other and in between time, drip-drip-chip-chip-peck-peck (Covert shaping and puppeteering). Plus the seemingly massive (rushed) investment and depth of involvement. And other obstructions and off-putters. You just have to do NPD Victim-style of Cold Turkey, and you're out and away. Aka No Contact...although I prefer to call it Zero Contact because then no sneaky victims can stretch the brief (yeah, but it was just a Facebook Like, I didn't saaay anything...that kind of nonsense). But the decider (once your head has had enough time to stop spinning and you realise the 'fear' of staying has become outweighed by that of leaving, because she's gone back on every promise or left everything barely done or started - aka you've met Your Line In The Sand - aka Abuse-Tolerance Bucket finally overflows) is this: Get out now/asap while it's even still do-able, grieve to get over them, which I've done before and didn't kill me -VERSUS- stay feeling this unloved, not-worth-valuing, abused, screeched at, too much of the time as devolves into all of the time, until my premature, dying day. No (short-term) Pain - No (long-term) Gain. Just know ahead - for that requisite confidence-boost - that you CAN do this. Getting away from someone abusive is never, ever, ever A Bad Move, A Regrettable Move, a Regretted Move. It's always the 'having stayed when I had my chance to get out' bit that they regret.)) I hope this is helping you to detach just the right amount, ergo, will feel less scared to call it quits if need be, ready for your Spocky observational experiment. And I want you to look back on people you used to look up to because they were admirable and empathetic....all those great, adult qualities. And compare her to them. You need to see or feel a contrast. This is another reason why they isolate you. With them now in your face all hours, this keeps you in a bubble and kind of echo chamber, whereby your mind starts to accept atrocious behaviour as the New Normal. That's why I suggested you study more on NORMAL, HEALTHY partnerships between equal, properly-matured humans ¡ who know they can only ever be equal to any other human on the planet.

Thank you again for the help. I have tried looking into counselling but am struggling to find any quickly. People are starting to book rooms now so feel pressure is building into this before I've had a chance to get to grips with our conversation before Christmas and everything feels like it's moving pretty fast. I can't help keep watching negative YouTube videos, about bad signs or abuse/ narcissism, it feels as though it's making me overthink. I guess I'm still waiting to see what happens but now it will effect other people. Thank you

Yes, that's the problem: finding a counsellor in too little time. So that's not an option regarding. Let's recap: It's palpably obvious to all, ABCD, that you are not in a place where you should commit the rest of your life to this person. BECAUSE of the recent "invasion of the body snatchers" (her increasingly showing the real her (not very nice) under her Great Gal mask)....because you identify her and her behaviour as aligning with NPD. You have to delay it NOW. Any more waiting and delaying will make everything so much worse. But that is no match for doing the honourable thing and deciding against...because your partner has changed too much from the person you WOULD have married. She's spoiled it. Not you. I had a similar, ridiculous statement from an ex-Narc. "Yooou said you wanted me holding your hand on your deathbed!". Answer: Yes. And then you went and ruined it all by changing personality on me....Shoulda thoughta that, shouldn't you - just count yourself lucky I can't report you to Advertising Standards! If she is not as advertised and test-driven, then you do not buy the lemon. I KNOW how it feels. It's incredibly daunting. You're going to need to have a long talk with your parents and get their help. This is one one nof those situations where, no matter how old one is, you need your mam and dad. They'll walk you through it all, I'm sure. Is that an option? Know this: In this situaton and context - being about to sign your life away to not just the wrong woman but the wrong type of human being : 'I'm Not Sure' is No, not Yes or Maybe. You DO NOT want to marry her. But you're scared you're about to set a bomb off. It won't. It happens a lot. (Rational) people (the type you'd want to keep) understand. And anyway, you can still do it in two sets of steps: if you insist the wedding be merely put on hold until you've visited a counsellor, then all the suppliers/caterers can be delayed (assuming you call them very soon, give them ample notice). If when you tell her, she kicks up a fuss (guaranteed), give her Option 2: we cancel it altogether. All it takes is saying it and feeling determined that it is your RIGHT to get your way on this. One Yes out of a panel of two is not a passed vote, it's a No. BOTH have to say yes. Also, make a point to ask her what her hurry is? And let her see you writing down her answer. Get HER worried and having to bend over. It's soo easy, honestly. You just have to have HAD IT! She obviously has some pressing need to get hitched, this case to you. She won't want the whole relationship ended, no way. She'll roll over. When she does - you KEEP that position of yours. Because the truth is this: without medication, the only way to manage a Narc is to DOMINATE ^THEM*. They don't mind that - they grew up with that. All they can do is Master or Slave. (You want and should expect, Equal Partners.) So it's one of their comfort zones. You can't do that forever though, it's exhausting and your life goes to sh*t. You need to watch Jo Frost Supernanny on YouTube - toddler training. Exact same principle. They push-and-push-and-push against the new (adult-sensible) rules and dynamic to get you to fold, exhausted, so they can reinstate the old regime. So you can't give them an INCH or they WILL take it. You have ALL the power. You just need to see how serious a mistake you'd be making. And SOD what anyone else thinks - this is YOUR life! They're not the ones would have to share a bloody house and bed with her, day-in-day-out, getting screeched at (and worse ny then). You don't want to end up a Battered Husband, mate, you really don't. It's too mind-ucking, especially for blokes. Anyway, we're still here for you if and for as long as you need us.

PS: Don't worry, you're not over-thinking. It's just your brain is very overloaded at the mo, there's not enough room to mentally multi-task. Try to sleep more, because your mental workings-out will get done for you. ...Just to cheer you up a bit - Reminds me of a joke: Confucius say, 'He who go to bed wiv big ploblem rill rake up in morning wiv solution in-hand'. (haha, sorry - gnaaaarf)

ALSO...it's clear she's a typical Narc - materialistic, hence wanting a flashy wedding (it's more sensible to save it to live on these days, and make it a Greek style wedding where guests just pin money to your suit and dress, rather than give you toasters and what-not, but anyway). Know Thy Patient. She'll be bribe-able. Use it or lose it. "I'll make you a deal. (and say it like this) After we've had a course of counselling - on the big day, I will pay for X (horse-drawn carriage?...limo?...something she's wanted for years (ie. five minutes)?" Can you think of anything? You CAN'T be your normal Honest self with a Narc. That's how they get ya! Lie and Future-Fake your pants off! (That's an order, soldier.) Seriously, all those that didn't manage to escape (and are even MORE miserable today!), it's because they refused to lie, even to a low-down, dirty type of narc. GET OVER YOURSELVES! :p Okay? Permission to Lie. :)

But, SURELY if you told your parents, they'd react, like, 'Jesus Christ - wish you'd told us earlier - no WAY can you go ahead! Thank GOD you told us in-time, though. Quick, I'll phone the florist, you phone the vicar, your dad can phone the (etc)!'. Doing The Right Thing in pulling-out for reasons of decency (conscientiousness) is bloody admirable. Ac-tually. And it wasn't even your decision, anyway. Ac-tually. And yeah, people could say: she's just another person, why would you have been too scared to speak your mind? We know, don't we. BECAUSE SHE'S A MON-STEEEEEEEEEEER WHO PLANS ON DRAGGING ME DOWN TO HEEEEELL!!! *ACTUALLY*.

Do you remember the first time you jumped off the highest diving-board at your local swimming-pool? You didn't have the luxury of time to ready yourself there, either, did you. You had to just go, ONE, TWO, THREE - JUMP! And afterwards, you felt SOOOOO MUCH BETTER! And then you thought: Tsk...what was I so worried about? Do you remember? The fear you feel is just a primitive reflex, not a Commentator, trying to tell you NOT to delay/pull out. The MINUTE you delay/cancel, you'll feel relief like you've never felt before! And you don't even have to feel guilty because - it wasn't YOU who changed for the intolerably worse, beyond all early-days recognition. Say it with me: SHE SHOULDA THOUGHTA THAT before she tricked her way into your heart. This is her consequence, not yours. But your opportunity. To save your own life.

Can`t stay away, look. Am taking on your pressure with you (tick-bloody-tock). So I've found you two magic pills. These two films, watched in order, will get your mind deciding and feeling full confidence in your, this time, very firm conviction...like this: 'No/Not Yet means No/Not Yet, and that is that. All I'm doing is being the realistic, sensible one for both of us - since you seem to live in some sort of Disney Film (despite we know that's not her problem, just her pretense, her cover-impression of a normal girlie-girlie) - so, you can hate me now but thank me later...I don't mind, I can wait'. (-haha, reference to delaying intended) See how at the same time, you're Future-Faking? - or giving yourself a get-out clause, if you prefer? You're saying, I'm not going anywhere, I just want things smoother and neater and a counsellor will be more than capable of showing us how...and then we'll be all snuggly and happy again, yay. And you're also getting to get BACK some denied ground... getting to re-start and re-do a large part of the bonding path over again, this time, slowly, leisurely, so that you can notice/hear/see EVERY malintentious act or attempt to get a leash around your neck again (stupid, arrogant little cow - doesn't she know as a man you could FAR more likely kill her, and it's only your gentlemanly self-containment that stands in your way? Soooooo arrogant. Seriously. That's why you mustn't let her think she can dominate and push/pressure you. All she's allowed to do is take you or leave you as a straight-backed male, not force you to bend over backwards until you end up as crippled as she secretly is. (Oh, yeah, she wants you to be a MINI-Her!) But anyway... ...Or even - Go ahead, punk, make my day. (ref Clint Eastwood). I'm telling you - if you are determined enough, she'll roll over. Like a beeping kitten. It'll be her manipulation tactic of a response, sure. But who cares. If as the only one of the pair of you who IS sane, sensible, intelligent, pragmatic, AND sensitive, etc., enough, then it ONLY makes sense that you waste no time in taking control of that ship and chart a safe course. Or else it will crash. No marriage will work on these present bases even IF your intended were a normal-healthy rather than, screechy-dominator! If you pelt her with all the very best, most adult-mature, sensible, logical, above-average intelligent reasons why SHE should want the delay for counselling JUST AS MUCH AS YOU, but she still (albeit placidly) resists - WHAT'S MENTALLY WRONG WITH *HER*, THEN?! ANSWERS, PLEASE! So if she doesn't - YOU'VE GOT HER. You'll know for sure-sure-sure she IS what you fear she is/has, indelibly, within her. Ta-daaaaaa! Good, aren't I. ;) It's called, been to La-La-Land Hell & Back. I would never suggest anything I hadn't already test-driven a number of times, successfully, myself. So......Do yourself a massive favour and watch these two films - this weekend preferably. And then let me know if you want tips for calmly-intimidating body lingo...for coming over as masterful and deadly serious ("Don' push meeee!") (name the film!). Let's give her someone SHE's never seen before, shall we? Let's shock HER for a change. Again, it's so piss-easy, you'll kick yourself. You won't adopt that position permanently though...it's not you, you're sane, well-intentioned and fair-minded, and two, as I say, it's exhausting/life's too short and doesn't have to be that complicated, upsetting and downright whacko. So at SOME point, you'll have to hand steering-wheel duty to her again (you have to sleep) and suffer the crud again/put your progress back OR finally decide to get off at the next port (and she can crash on her own or drag some other poor sap on-board). But let's not get ahead of ourselves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-HeV8Z6iXc (Four Weddings And A Funeral) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_7MJQnk4M8 (Shirley Valentine) And don't groan. One, underneath the 'female-friendly' surface stuff - these are bloody amazing, sooo impactful - especially for someone in your nightmare-ish position - and two, they're surprisingly great FUN! They're basically about the Dos & Don'ts when it comes to marrying. Actual life-changers. Honestly, they should instantly sort your mind out for you, while you just lay back and munch popcorn. You might need a long sleep afterwards though - from all the mental ephiphany-ettes ("ping...ping-ping-ping!...."). You might even find you have the giant urge to watch them all over again. Because, closely enough, they're about you. Right now and then decades later if despite feeling the way you feel, you proceed. Forgot to mention: Re the guests who've booked already. AWW, BOO-HOO. Why - what? Would they rather you enter a misery-making marriage, just so's not to inconvenience them a bit? Yeah, they might forfeit a booking-fee ("ermagheerd - end of the wuld!"), but they can take your wedding present back. Who cares, anyway. The rest of your life makes their inconvenience look like NOTHING. Who would or could be so petty to hold it against you? I tell you...Anyone who failed to say, 'Woah, though...you can't say the lad doesn't have iron balls and integrity!', would ne showing themselves as unfit to lick your boots (and should hang out more with her). It'd be old news within a month, anyway.

Thanks again for the help. I have started counselling and making a list of good and bad about the relationship. I watched 4 weddings and I think I get the meaning ha. I'm just still trying to figure things out, though I keep seeing if you are not 100% then it should be no.

Heya, you're very welcome, still. :) Started counselling? Fantastic! Did you check whether s/he is au fait with NPD? Cannot WAIT to see her "Rap Sheet". It's a very powerful exercise, you'll find. "....F*ck!.....f*ckety-f*ckety-f*ck!...f*ckkkk-it!" (I won't say, name the film LOL) Not sure about the pairing between Scarlett and that 7ft cowboy, though - are you? Can't see it, meself. It's a good laugh, though, isn't it. (You might find you like Notting Hill...co-stars Rhyss whassisface, that Welsh comedy actor - hysterical). Yes, of course, you're still trying to figure things out. Their effect on us Normal-Healthy-Empaths is way vaster and deeper than we realise...until we break or separate from them. Their way of being plays havoc with our healthy programmes ("Error - Does Not Compute!"...."Danger - Corrupt Data-supplier!"). Yeah, sure, take it slowly. There literally is no pressure. Nothing that doesn't shrink to a pinhead when compared to going ahead with marrying when you feel it in your bones that you shouldn't. Remember: this isn't you, and your cold feet. This is about her having ...well - deteriorated. And too starkly in a short space of time, with (I presume?) no set of traumas and crises going on all around her. (That wouldn't be an excuse, either. But it least you could easily understand it.) RSvP, and do keep keeping us posted?

Sorry I don't understand that last bit. We seem to be getting along ok at the moment but I just can't help but think when is it going to change back to the disrespectful behaviour/ comments.i just do t know what to do. My counsellor has highlighted some.. red flags, and I agree. I feel like I'm waiting for a big fight to break it off and not look like the bad guy in the situation.

Hey-hey - soz delay again - be with you shortly (tonight, preferably, tomorrow latest).

Hi-Hi! "Sorry I don't understand that last bit. We seem to be getting along ok at the moment but I just can't help but think when is it going to change back to the disrespectful behaviour/ comments.i just do t know what to do. My counsellor has highlighted some.. red flags, and I agree. I feel like I'm waiting for a big fight to break it off and not look like the bad guy in the situation." Which last bit? Can you copy and paste it in, please? Yes. *I* can't help but wonder when she's going to revert to Out-Of-Order. And re counsellor spotting at least some red flags - PHEW, GOOD. Thank god you didn't get an inexperienced, un-Narc-educated, "Bleeding Heart" (awww...poor slow serial-killer....it's not her faauult, you just need to love her haaardeeeer) (tell it to a Snake-charmer mate - a sequence of lethal bites are still a sequence of lethal bloody bites - or YOU LIVE WITH HER and THEN tell me that!....haha, don't get me started)... So - good. That's another obstacle avoided. You do know what to do. Wait for her to slip up again and yes, make a meal of it! Who CARES HOWWWW you escape a secret nutter. Just THAT you escape is what matters in this NPD entrapment situation. I mean, what would you have said had you been one of the soldiers who, incredibly, escaped from Colditz? "Oh, nooo...I have to bash this SS guard over the head with a club to put him out of action.... I don't think I can..... CALL THE WHOLE ESCAPE OPERATION OFF, LADS!" NO?! You'd happily go, bash. Because you'd not be bashing some nice, innocent person, would you. You'd be bashing your Nazi, very anti-Geneva Convention, genocidal, sadistic as hell, ....wait for it.....NARCISSIST! So that just shows me you need to read up more, specifically, stuff written by victim-survivors who've since stuffed their face with studying about it all. Tomorrow I'll see what I can find you in my trusty archives. Don't forget to paste in what you didn't 'get'.

Meanwhile - put down everything, blinker yourself with your palms, get rid of all background noise and read this TEN TIMES, I KID YOU NOT: "I feel like I'm waiting for a big fight to break it off and not look like the bad guy in the situation."" The bad guy is not the one that breaks it off. If the bad guy DOES breakk it off - he deliberately makes it optimally painful....does it at the alter. Saying that, it's the WAY!!!! he does it at the alter. He does it in whatever way he's worked out, will floor her and instantly create huge power over her now and into the future - or leave her ruined as he goes off too soon with her replacement - AND paste it all over Facebook where normal-healthies who'd unexpectedly bumped into one of their genuine matches, would feel too wrong, guilty, embarrassed to behave so...Jerry Springer Guest-like. And other signs 'n stuff'. See how way off base that fear of yours is? I said the sooner you delay, the better And that's why. Those that know and love you/love and know you, will KNOW you're not like that. Other Narcs who were only using you/your family, will love the excuse to slag someone off - and you'll do! Or do you just want to call it off in one fell swoop, instead of halving it into delay then cancel? Why aren't you confiding in your PARENTS as well as the therapist? Do you have a bad relationship with them? If so, I'll be your parent through this. Just spill, for goodness' sake man (grabs ABCD by shoulders and shakes hard until he goes, "Ur-ur-ur-ur-ur-ur-urrr!"). Why aren't you confiding properly in ME (all those unanswered questions up there)? You're completely unidentifiable on here....too many people the world over are in your exact boat with someone who's almost a carbon-copy of her. Not so much, needle in a haystack as BOSON OR QUARK! This is your golden opportunity to get out BEFORE you get too involved/embroiled/paralysed to leave and thereby before getting seriously injured in such a way as can make trying to leave a second time, even harder, ...and harder....and harder....until you can't.....and even if you do manage it, leave you incapable of functioning normally for up to 2 years, and having to neurologically readjust, "de-Flea" yourself, for up to 5. I.e. no dating meanwhile - you're too jittery for the first 1-2 years, then having too much fun, peace, quiet and harmony being single. Because...This is NOT just a break-up. It's a break-up too soon AND realising that psychologically and emotionally - to the deepest level of your core psyche possible - you were conned by a romantic con-woman. Sorry... but grown women don't treat you like that, let alone screech at their partner. People with shite rearing on top of Narcissistic brainwashing - and other mentally crippled/diseased types - do that. It's going too slowly, isn't it - the counselling. Is your therapist AWARE you're under the clock to such a serious degree? Might you suggest switching to her suggesting ways to put a stop to it without you looking like the perp when you're actually the victim? Or at least looking like the CO-victim (bad mix)? Tell me what's keeping you in that relationship - by which I mean, ASIDE from 'setting off a bomb', socially? It's money/cost of living - or wanting back what you've 'futilely' spent on her? - isn't it. Or it's her place, meaning, you'll have to find alternative rental. Which?

PS: "You'd be bashing your Nazi, very anti-Geneva Convention, genocidal, sadistic as hell, ....wait for it.....NARCISSIST!" That's given me a great idea! I'm going to spread a new term. I'm fed-up with having to say Malignant before I say Narc so that people don't keep hanging merely difficult/high maintenance-and-unaware Benigns for purposeful, deliberate, truly sicko Malignants (out to destroy you emotionally and socially, and, the severest of them, financally, familially, job-ly and everythingally): Narcissist (NPD...diagnosable but not trying to slow-kill you) versus Nazissist (malignant, sadistic, fraudulent, even criminal, slow-murderous/genocidal/world-cleansing of all good people who makes rules for them and everyone.....this case, in a small pond (domestic-romantic)...no real power, save over YOU (and others unseen)). Yup, I like that! Nazissist. Says it all. Spread it round for me? Cheers. :)

Thank you again for the response. I know it's late on a Saturday. How do I get over the guilt of it all. She has stated that everyone seems more excited about the wedding then I do. We've booked a holiday which I've also not shown an awful lot of excitement about. There is just this massive nagging felling and numbness about everything that I can't get past. What do you think I should do? . Am I doing her and myself a disservice and per longing the inevitable? People have booked rooms at the wedding venue and her maid of honour has already arranged her hen and got deposits, so there is a financial implication for other now. Even though we agreed before Christmas when the ultimatum was given that we didn't have to get anything booked till April/ May (this was my timescale as to when I started to want to look to try and fix issues), but now everything is booked by end of Jan start of Feb. What do you think I should do? And could you give your reasoning? Though I think I know the answer. I just don't have the guts to do it and the guilt is horrible. Thank you for any response.

You are prolonging the inevitable, yes. i expect you have an awful lot of past, repressed and suppressed complaints to 'slap her silly face with'. But that way lies, behaving (to the dense or NPD-uninitiated/uneducated) like a perp. How you get over the gui- GUILT FOR WHAT? Was she just normal and you just went off her? Er - NO? So - for wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwhat, pray tell? PS: Hello! :)

PS: If you have the misguided Guilt you won't have the Courage, no. So let's find out - Guilt for what? Listen- schedule-wise, she's changed the goalposts so many times and so drastically, not only is she not playing Tennis - you and she are not even playing in the same bloody stadium any more! SHE...should be guilty. But because you've been over-civilised, and SOMEONE in the pack has to feel the Guilt - 'it may as well be Muggins, here'. ...Eh. Did you happen to hear this or any variation of it a lot in your past? "Awwww, YOU apologise first(/whatever), you're the stronger(/whatever) one'. ?

The term ‘Narcissistic abuse’ is pretty recognizable that it’s a bad thing. Like no one’s gonna sign up for some form of abuse, right? So, if you’re unfortunate enough to know firsthand such abuse then how can it be that the prospect of leaving one’s abuser can feel scarier, more conflictual, and guilt inducing than staying in the abusive situation? In this post, I want to explain how to overcome guilt felt in the process of trying to leave a narcissist. It is very common to find the prospect of ‘escape’ scarier than the practice of hanging around. It’s also possible to understand why this is the case and use this understanding to challenge the core assumption that drives those feelings of fear, guilt, and self-loathing that can emerge when attempting to leave your narcissistic abuser. In today’s post I will offer such an understanding and offer a concrete step to take to challenge the feelings that tell you to stay when you are intent on leaving. My name is Jay Reid and I specialize in helping individuals recover from narcissistic abuse in individual therapy and through my online course & community. We take a 3-pronged approach to recover of: 1) Making sense of what happened, 2) Gaining distance from the narcissistic abuser, and 3) living in defiance of the narcissist’s rules. Today’s blog post sits squarely in the ‘gaining distance’ department. I recently organized the playlists to reflect these 3 categories and encourage you to take a look. And if you were a scapegoat, this e-Book on Surviving narcissistic abuse as a scapegoat could be of interest. It falls under the ‘making sense of what happened’ heading and can help you understand the different forms of narcissistic abuse and the beliefs that you are often left with. You can click here to get it. So, why can you feel guilty to leave someone who does not treat you well? If you had a narcissistic parent or partner you had to deal with a pretty consistent of experience of emotional deprivation despite working hard to give to that person all the time. I’m describing what was likely your inner experience while knowing that you may have been accused the entire time of not giving anything, being thoughtless, inconsiderate, etc. So you knew that you felt like you were giving and getting little to nothing in return but the external reality with narcissistic abuser was woven with the narcissist’s claims that you don’t give enough despite how much s/he gives to you. It can be confusing, to say the least. Surviving narcissistic abuse means making the narcissist happy with you Often in the course of narcissistic abuse you are pressured to think that the only way to survive is to make the narcissistic abuser happy with you. For the child, this is an easy sell because they need the parent to give to them the necessary ingredients to feel loved for who they are as separate people in the world and to feel like their own love is valuable to others. The child fears that if his/her own parent doesn’t offer them this, then they will never find it in their lifetime. The narcissist feels unconsciously entitled to others’ efforts to make him/her happy because s/he believes that they are more important than you. This is why the experience in the relationship can feel so one-sided yet the narcissistic abuser seems so convicted that you are not giving them enough. One way to make a relationship sort of work with someone upon whom you believe you must make happy otherwise suffer something much worse is to assume responsibility for their emotional well-being. So, the child can reason consciously or unconsciously that the narcissistic parent’s happiness is more important than his/her own and come to regard their own happiness as a sign of the selfishness that the parent is always accusing them of. This is an ingenious maneuver to avoid the other outcome of having no way to attach to the very person they so desperately need. It allows them to avoid feeling catastrophically alone. …now the narcissistic abuser’s happiness takes the place of your own. The trade-off for this strategy is that now the narcissistic abuser’s happiness takes the place of your own. You have to discount the importance and even worthwhile-ness of your own happiness and elevate the importance and nobility of theirs. Again, I say this with an attitude of compassion because it’s only done in order to secure a thimble-full of attachment where no attachment is not an option. Once this trade-off has occurred in the survivor’s psychology then it can feel like what the survivor does or doesn’t do has the power to make or break the narcissist"... ((I'm gonna re-paste that so you can read it again and come to the conclusion that, in actual fact, any horrid consequences as result from your (by any sane stretch of the imagination)) healthy, self-respecting and -protecting, REACTION to attempted (serious) coercion from her - IS HER OWN DOING. "Own Worst Enemy", they're known as. If you let them escape consequences, they'll have got away with it "as usual" and will be ego-fed and puff up even BIGGER, even MORE dominating/controlling/manipulating. The best thing you could DO for her is to break it off. AND for the people in your entire county/district! : ***** Once this trade-off has occurred in the survivor’s psychology then it can feel like what the survivor does or doesn’t do has the power to make or break the narcissist. ***** )) ..."And of course, it follows that if you do or don’t do the thing that seems like it would ‘break’ the narcissist then a torrent of guilt and self-blame can come flooding in. Well, of course, doing something that promotes your own needs for protection and happiness such as putting distance between you and the narcissistic abuser could initially feel like something that would ‘break’ the narcissistic abuser. It flies in the face of the belief that you are first and foremost responsible for the narcissistic abuser’s happiness – before your own. I believe that defying this rule can be one source of guilt. ((The writer doesn't need to believe it, it's an established fact.)) It’s sort of like a sin might feel if you’re religious. ((OHHHH, YES... Because, of course, leaving nassty out of it - without you, they're so helpless and inept! ("Da-dda!").) The survivor has had to elevate the importance of the narcissistic abuser – just like a believer would with their God – and anything that goes against the ‘commandments’ of that elevated deity would feel like a sin. There’s another – and I think deeper – reason why you can feel guilt and a host of other bad feelings. The initial dilemma with a narcissistic parent or partner is that you cared more about attaching to them than they were able to care about attaching to you – through no fault of your own. Nonetheless, if you didn’t figure out how to take responsibility for their emotional well-being as a compensatory strategy then you would have been and felt completely abandoned. I think ((tsk - it's fact!)) our systems ((when kids or however total dependents incl kidnap victims - google Stockholm Syndrome)) are designed to prevent such psychological catastrophes from happening and one way of doing that is to send aversive signals when we move away from this Gerry-rigged form of one-sided attachment towards something that is hopefully more fulfilling and reciprocal. So, feelings of guilt as described above, or extreme anxiety, or even terror can often arise when you contemplate psychological separation from the narcissistic abuser. ((So, feelings of guilt as described above, or extreme anxiety, or even terror can often arise when you contemplate psychological separation from the narcissistic abuser.)) ((FEELINGS ARE NOT FACTS - say it 15 times on the trot!)) These feelings are well-documented in the psychoanalytic literature and in a lot of ways is what therapy was designed for: to offer support, understanding and relationship as you traverse the emotional terrain from the ‘bad old way’ of attaching to the ‘new untrodden good way’ of attaching to others in a more satisfying way. ((I call this 'doing a Methadone'...transferring your addiction to the lethal to the benign but equally satisfying. You can make this forum your new source of company - and other forums. One of the bonuses of this here interweb; you imagine if all you had for Recovery Path company was via postal-letter-writing and, not even phones!)) ((FYI, your ancestors had to be effing tough!)) If you’re interested in going deeper into the importance of and challenges within gaining distance from your narcissistic abuser, you might check out module 3 in my online course titled ‘The importance of distance from the narcissistic family’. How to overcome guilt to leave your narcissistic abuser? Here are 3 tactics: Know that your guilt comes from feeling responsible for someone else First, you can arm yourself with the understanding offered in this post that your guilt stems from the assumption of responsibility for the narcissistic abuser’s emotional well-being and work to compassionately understand why you had to assume it in the first place. Next, you can gently challenge this premise – what could it mean if you were not responsible for them in this manner? Why are their needs more important than your own? It may feel like that’s the case, but what’s the objective evidence to suggest they are? As you practice extending your attention to the information generated in such thought exercises, it can grow to feel safer and far less guilty as you proceed in separating from the abuser. Connect to other safe people and communities Second, and I can’t overstate the importance of this, is making sure you have connections to other safe people and communities. This is what can reduce the deep fear, anxiety, and guilt that comes with going away from the only way you’ve known attachment to feel. The goal is to know that although it feels similar to the trauma of separating from someone who doesn’t treat you well (i.e. the past), you’re in a different situation today. You have people who are genuinely interested in and care about how you feel as the separate unique person you are. You can find this in the form of friendships, relationships, and/or online communities. In fact, this is one of the reasons I implemented a private facebook group to accompany my online course on recovery from narcissistic abuse. To afford people a group of like-minded safe people who can see, recognize, and validate each other’s attempts to do right by themselves. It’s been a beautiful thing to see members take turns asking for, receiving and giving support at they make this separation from abusive people in their lives. Know you deserve your own patience & compassion Third, and this may sound familiar, this is a process and not a switch that’s flipped. As best as possible offer yourself patience, kindness, and compassion as you take incremental steps in this direction. ((I and anyone else here can walk with you there, if you like?)) It’s a barge you’re trying to turn around – not a sailboat – so doing it safely and successfully requires a persistent and steady hand.((...))" __________________________________________________________________________- ((...Oh, aye. But the Grief & Recovery Path is FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA(wait)AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA(nearly done)AAAAAAAAAAAR preferable to continuing an NPD Fauxlationship, when they just get worse and worse...and just as you think they can't get any worse - worse and worse and worse.... Especially for the Thriving portion that you reach (that happens) "all of a sudden" as you pass the chequered flag. You realise just how incredible you and your mind actually-factually ARE, and NEVER FEAR ANYTHING AGAIN. It's like bothering being terrified of baby sugar ants when you've just slain a 30ft tall, fire-breathing (or screeching in your case) dragon. ...well named me, because, they DO drag you. Not just to the alter. Everywhere. You wait until (if) she gets (would have got) that ring on her finger. Say goodbye to your knees. This will be GOOD for her - AND good for you, too.... "maybe notchaday...but shoooon...an foar the rest of youar life" (- name the famous film!). Hope that's helped?

WHOOOPS - I lost a whole chunk of the start there! Here's the site link: https://jreidtherapy.com/how-to-overcome-guilt/

Also, time-wise - you need this book - urgently (not expensive). Fantastic, it is...sounds weird to say so but most 'undecideds' find it a tremendously good read, even those that don't have problems or aren't even in a relationship at the time (forewarned is forearmed, and all of that). It'll sort your mind out instantaneously as you go from chapter/question to question. And it doesn't hurt a jot... really grounds and re-centres you in record time. https://www.amazon.com/Good-Leave-Stay-Step-Step/dp/0452275350 "Too Good to Leave, Too Bad to Stay: A Step-by-Step Guide to Help You Decide Whether to Stay In or Get Out of Your Relationship" by Mira Kirshenbaum 'There are many books that promise to help you fix a bad relationship. This groundbreaking bestseller is the first one to help you choose whether you should even try—or if you need to go. Psychotherapist Mira Kirshenbaum draws on years of research and her work with real-life couples to help you make the right decision. She shows you how to diagnose your unique situation with self-analysis and questions like these, which get to the very heart of your problems: • What sins are forgivable and which ones are unpardonable? • Is your partner questioning your opinions to the point where you doubt yourself? • What is your sex life really like, and how important is it? • Is there real love left between you, and how does it stack up against all that you find unlovable? Mira Kirshenbaum provides expert guidelines that are the key to making all your choices, concrete steps that you can implement right now, and the ultimate way to determine your personal bottom line—what you need to be happy. This remarkably insightful and probing guide offers advice that lets you see the truth about your relationship—and with wisdom and compassion, it helps you act with the confidence of knowing that whether you decide to go or stay, you are doing the very best thing.' Also, to know what a man who's determined he's found The One and is going to marry her, by hook or crook, looks like - this weekend, watch, "The Graduate", starring Dustin Hoffman and Anne Bancroft. Again, it's deep but highly original, witty and entertaining from start to finish. (PS: the pop artist-producer 'Bassomatic' uses the most famous line from the film, that goes, 'Mrs Robinson, are you trying to seduce me?', and the entire filmtrack was by Simon & Garfunkel: "So here's to you, Mrs Robinson, heaven holds a place for those two pray...hey-hey-hey"......ringing any bells? Very famous film, massive box-office hit and quite taboo for its time, too. (Still is, in fact.) Enjoy! :)

PS: Haven't mentioned this as yet because it's one of those unobvious bleedin' obviouses that I take as read but - remembering you're overloaded - best I do anyway: She KNOWS you're waking up to her and the hot water you've found yourself; it's precisely WHY she's rushing you to the alter. Well, half-why. The other half is because they cannot keep their huge arse squeezed into those tight trousers forever, and when it's as big as hers, letting just some of it hang out is paltry relief; she's gagging to set it all free, let it all hang out. Which, she will. As soon as she's got that Ball & Chain round your ankle (and chained to the wall). ("Ruuurn, Forrest, ruurn!").

Thank you. I just don't know how to do it. She has a lot of trauma from her past like abandonment issues from her dad who has never had anything to do with her. Her auntie and uncle passed in their 30's early 40's, which she brings up when we argue like tonight. I don't have the words to tell her. A lot of her friends have booked rooms at the venue and my folks took. We've booked a holiday for may. She said during our arguement that I don't seem interested in either the wedding or holiday. I put it down to the wedding being more important to her and her vision of what ICT will look like. Her love language is words of affirmation and I'm terrible at that. The guilt is just unreal for me, and I just can't seem to get my head around it all and make a decision. You are right I think in the rushing element and that was a major piece of our conversation that we didn't have to start looking straight away and that then got changed.

"You are right I think in the rushing element and that was a major piece of our conversation that we didn't have to start looking straight away and that then got changed." . Start with that, and blame IT for having put you into this wholly inconducive tailspin, then. That works with giant toddlers ("da chair fell over, daddy" / "naughty chair...!"). Don't say 'I feel', though. Not with Narcs. Say, 'I think'. Mucho importante! Tell her you're worried that, because you HAVE to delay it (before your head explodes), she might read that as you not wanting to marry her and dump you for it. I call this, unwittingly painting a target on your arse...they then know exactly where to shoot to hurt you. But you're doing it wittingly-deliberately...because you WANT her to be the dumper (no revenge necessary). And then, hey-ho - she's abandoned YOU. ...only, you then strangely fail to act like a dumpee who wants her back and accordingly tries....You leave yourself dumped... Again: you won't get anywhere trying to be rational and reasonable, and tying yourself in knots as you try to appeal to her good side. She possesses neither. So you'll get worse than nowhere. ...And then later down the line if demanded to explain yourself - do the opposite to what she'd do and just tell the truth: "Yes, I know I said I wanted to marry you, but that was before I realised the You I would have wanted to marry and stayed married to, doesn't exist (and never did). You only have her (hah!) word that her dad was the perpetrator or that she didn't become his mini-perp who, as the Beta, tried (LaLa Land Style) to dominate the Alpha. Two Narcs don't tend to get on for long. That's why they try to trick NTs and the best of NTs (Empaths) into believing they too are a nice, normal, healthy, fully-functioning, well-intentioned, etc., etc., Neurotypical JUST LIKE THEM whom obviously therefore DESERVES them. (Pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff.) She'll have to help herself. But she seems good at that. So I'm sure she'll in actual fact be perfectly fine and dandy, without you, constantly propping and being made to prop her up....feeling you have a duty to her/it...the usual symptoms you're malignant-narc-victimised. As FOR this: "Her auntie and uncle passed in their 30's early 40's, which she brings up when we argue like tonight." Sacrilegous (tick!)....using her ALLEGEDLY loved aunt and uncle's passing as a means to strongarm you. A weapon. Woah. She has no shame. Course, she's an NSpath and an NSpath has No Shame and No Boundaries/No-Go Areas. I think you're just having trouble believing it's what she is. Wouldn't you agree? It's probably because I'm anonymous. Fairenoughski. I'll bring in Martha for you...(Dr Martha Stout, top NPD/NPD-AsPD/AsPD expert and author of "The Sociopath Next Door")... 1. “Sociopaths have no regard whatsoever for the social contract, ((like agreements over schedules and never as an adult, screeching)) but they do know how to use it to their advantage. And all in all, I am sure that if the devil existed, he would want us to feel very sorry for him.” ((Pity disarms us normal-healthies, espec. empaths. You can't stay angry or steadfast in the face of da poor, wickle, injured, fluffy bunny wabbit "really"..., can you, now. Gremlin, actually. So - yeah, you can.)) 2. “After listening for almost twenty-five years to the stories my patients tell me about sociopaths who have invaded and injured their lives, when I am asked, “How can I tell whom not to trust?” the answer I give usually surprises people. The natural expectation is that I will describe some sinister-sounding detail of behavior or snippet of body language or threatening use of language that is the subtle giveaway. Instead, I take people aback by assuring them that the tip-off is none of these things, for none of these things is reliably present. Rather, the best clue is, of all things, the pity play ((or ploy)). The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to our sympathy.” ((BINGO!)) 3. “...If, instead, you find yourself often pitying someone who consistently hurts you or other people, and who actively campaigns for your sympathy, the chances are close to 100 percent that you are dealing with a sociopath.” ((BINGO!)) 4a. “As a counterpoint to sociopathy, the condition of narcissism is particularly interesting and instructive. Narcissism is, in a metaphorical sense, one half of what sociopathy is. Even clinical narcissists are able to feel most emotions are strongly as anyone else does, from guilt to sadness to desperate love and passion. The half that is missing is the crucial ability to understand what other people are feeling. Narcissism is a failure not of conscience but of empathy, which is the capacity to perceive emotions in others and so react to them appropriately. The poor narcissist cannot see past his own nose, emotionally speaking, and as with the Pillsbury Doughboy, any input from the outside will spring back as if nothing had happened. Unlike sociopaths, narcissists often are in psychological pain, and may sometimes seek psychotherapy. When a narcissist looks for help, one of the underlying issues is usually that, unbeknownst to him, he is alienating his relationships on account of his lack of empathy with others, and is feeling confused, abandoned, and lonely. He misses the people he loves, and is ill-equipped to get them back. Sociopaths, in contrast, do not care about other people, and so do not miss them when they are alienated or gone, except as one might regret ***the absence of a useful appliance*** that one has somehow lost.” 4b. “Sociopathy is the inability to process emotional experience, including love and caring, except when such experience can be calculated as a coldly intellectual task.” ((Such as, using (and re-using) aunt and uncle's death as her tool/weapon for instantly MENTALLY PARALYSING YOU!)) ((BINGO!)) __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Trust me. Trust those Bingos. Trust Martha. Trust YOUR GUT. Your Soon-to-Be Nex. Will. Be. Surprisingly... Shockingly... Insultingly... FINE. Please now go read Thea's thread, to see for yourself? You're almost level-pegged with her on the same path, literally just a few steps behind her. It'll do you the power of good to read the last few weeks of what's been going on with her NSpath(!!). And you need to bear in mind AS you read, that the only differences between a female nspath and a male nspath are: (1) the female's more physho-emotionally deadly/cunning/better at planning and (2) whereas the bloke "eats, shoots (impregnates), and leaves" everwhere he goes, the female uses pregnancy and babies as hooks to spike into her victim to make it feel impossible for him to move, let alone leave (and leave his kids with her/it, perish the thought). Draft your letters on here, if you like - I can help? And here's another idea: If you feel THAT superglued to her in terms of manly responsibility to her, then why don't you just Dear Joan her to her face whilst offering to be her 'Quasi Brother' instead? Bet you Miss Helpless Von HelpHerself will - oddly enough - turn around and fire you on the spot for that. If not. You get to say The Long Goodbye. Baby Steps. OR NOT! She might actually be palatable-ish as a sister?? What do you think?

Thanks again. I just don't have the specific words to bring it all up. We had a conversation this morning after the conversation I mentioned yesterday about her bringing up her past. She said she didn't want to do counselling and it would just bring up more issues for her she thinks. I disagreed and said it could help. She then said I said it didn't work for me in the past and she didn't know of any therapy I've had during our relationship (I never told her about the recent spell for obvious reasons) and she then said she's be upset/mad (can't remember) if I had and hadn't told her. Now it wouldn't bother me if she had had therapy and not told me till after, so I'm not sure why she'd be upset. Looked online and people are saying both sides that that is good and bad, that I should tell her but she may be controlling/ worried talking about her. Can you put a link for Thea's thread please? This is has all made me feel quite cowardly and unconfident in myself, though the later has been for a while.

I've read through all this thread again and both yourself/Soulmate and Man alone, as well as my therapist ( who said he shouldn't really give his opinion, though didn't say it in the exact words) said I should leave. I have one more therapy session though this is after the payment date for the big amount for the wedding. She is I think today booking a DJ, which I have again not really paid much attention to. So there is even more financial impact again. That's not till after this long weekend which we have plans, though she didn't want to meet my mates on the Friday as we have plans to meet her friends on the Saturday and my folks and hers of the weekend too. Is that normal? She doesn't like the pub it's in. We had a conversation about what we both need to work on, and during the argument I didn't allow her to bait me or change the subject to something I did wrong just to vilify me. We reconciled this morning before work, which means she is done with it, but I never am, I carry all the arguments with me, which is a narcissistic trait apparently, though I don't think I'm am narcissistic but worry about it. There is also the fact that I have not had an alcohol free day for about 3 weeks now. Not much just a beer or 2 but have found my self just heading to the shop and drinking it before going home. That's bad and I know it is, but I can't seem to help myself. Thanks again

Hey-hey - be with you tomorrow. Meantime - Thea's thread: https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13538/i-feel-like-my-life-is-falling-apart

We always seem to get through our disagreements. She is finally going to cook dinner tonight. After months of not. As you know this was one of the big things for me before Christmas and as I said in this thread. She has some really good traits too and this is so hard.

So 10 people have now booked rooms and she has bought a load of clothes for holiday. We're spending the day together today and it's going well. She mentioned again this morning that I don't seem excited still.

(Post 1/4) "I just don't have the specific words to bring it all up. We had a conversation this morning after the conversation I mentioned yesterday about her bringing up her past." Were you the one brought it up or was she? "She said she didn't want to do counselling" (Tick!) "and it would just bring up more issues for her she thinks." Yeah, that's why so many millions for decades and decades, now, still seek counselling/therapy. Because it just brings up more issues (inference being, that you come out worse than when you went in.) What a crock of an excuse. So (Tick!). She daren't. Counsellors (and a lot more now DO know enough or more about it at this juncture - thanks to the Lockdowns (no in-person customers - study-up time!)) aren't emotionally invested thus too panicked to think straight, like you... (That's why I want to know who raised the 'conversation' up there: IS SHE PRODDING AND SCRAPING YOUR WOUNDS, NOT GIVING YOU ANY RECOVERY TIME NOW?) ...They'd see right through her. And it would be their PERSONAL, HUMAN-ethical duty to strongly hint to you that you're with an Iffy, could get horribly, chronically injured (more than you already are, nervous-system-wise), and that the fauxlationship was already over at Hello.ç ***And - NOTE! - so would YOUR friends see through her. THAT'S why your friends - No; her friends - Yes (venue, my arse; it's called self-bloody-sacrificing for the sake of Equality/Fairness of marital rights, privileges and perks, like a spouse-to-be...starting as one means to go on (which NORMALLY is a *good* thing)). They'd all immediately be able tell you were in a state and would naturally start looking and listening incredibly closely to her, and then getting you into a corner to voice their suspicions and concerns. Not so, her friends (ignorant, duped, new Fans/Wannabes and Flying Monkeys). "I disagreed and said it could help." (I pointed-out she was talking utter b*llocks...the completely opposite of the Truth.) THERE ya go! More confidence like THAT, please, Bartender! (Gold star on your forehead...."thlup!"). :))))))))))) You were just (like Thea) very polite and gracious about it. (Style matters not. It's substance. ACTIONS. You said-did, STOP TALKING THE EPITOMY OF B*LLOOOOOOOOCKS, WOMAN, FOR GOD'SSSS SSSSAKE!) (I don't know about you, but I want to 'wring her neck'. GOD, she's frustrating! There is subtly refusing to conversationally cooperate in order that you both sort any issue(s), AND THEN THERE IS PLAYING *TOO* DUMB....just because she doesn't even have enough wariness/respect towards you (as a person) to be EVEN BE ARSED to come up with something BLOODY PLAUSIBLE! That's a "Sociopathic Tell/Reveal". It's her, sadistically rubbing her refusal to do her duty (were she a romantic partner for-real) to play TEAMMATE, rather than OPPONENT, right in your face. Bare-faced lying by talking complete nonsense as if you really were Alice In Wonderland and she, The Mad Hatter. NO, I DON'T LIKE WATER. IT'LL ONLY LEAVE ME THIRSTIER. 'Righto, (Evil) Forrestina........Now tell me, WHAT YOU THINK YOU'RE PLAYING AT? WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO *ACHIEVE* WITH THAT CHILDISH ATTITUDE AND BEHAVIOUR.... Is this supposed to always be ENDEARING you to me or something?! Are you ill? Do you need a doctor? I demand to know why you would MAKE such a downright retarded response as that?!' (is what I would say...but calmly/languidly and (always) piss-takingly). Do YOU stay calm? You sound like you do? Anyway: see if this rings any bells: My toddler, to me: "No...dunlike 'pinach" "But you've never TRIED Spinach so you don't KNOW...you might think it's yummy! Just try it? "Dun wanna" "Why not?" "....dunlike 'pinach". (I negotiated. For every spoonful he got a Smartie (colour of his choice) to collect into a little dish in front of him. I 'was so impressed' I gave him TWO Smarties for a 'really BIG' spoonful! You have to do that with kids. But you don't. What are ya - gagging for a kiddy? It happens to blokes, too, you know. RSvP?) But, YUP...sounds about the same level as counselling will make it all worse, doesn't it. But this is supposed to be another adult. DELIBERATELY "Playing Dumb" (Tick!). At an highly inappropriate moment (NSpath - middle name, Highly Inappropriate). (Tick!) HOWEVER....there WILL be a bit of a truth in with that lie (- NSpath: "wraps the truth around a lie or lie around the truth" - Tick!). And it's this: 'It will just bring up so much crap (in me) that the wedding (that I'm trying to shotgun you into) won't happen for a good 10-20 years'. This one is Aware of what she is. Hence, putting up Two Fingers to you whenever you want and need a straight conversation in order to broach the DEMAND that the Big Day be delayed. WHOOOOO wants to look back on their marriage, ANYWAY, and have to recall that they had to DRAG their partner down the aisle?! In terms of similarity to Thea's NSpath - This won't be a marriage for her. It'll be her JOB...part of her career. Were it a marriage, she wouldn't want to be having to drag you. "She then said I said it didn't work for me in the past and she didn't know of any therapy I've had during our relationship (I never told her about the recent spell for obvious reasons)" GOLD STAR - "thlup!"...Fckit, make that two: "thlup!". ('Heee's comin'-up!....He-wants-the world to kno-ow, got-to-let it sho-ow...') (name the hit late-80s female song/singer!) I'm very heartened by the wakening of your inner animal. It's still a bit dopey but it's CERTAINLY GEARING-UP! :). Methinks the (not-)fair Lady ought runneth whilst she may. (thumbs-up!) "and she then said she's be upset/mad (can't remember) if I had and hadn't told her." (AWW,...PPPP*SS-OFF - me) 'YA VULL, MEIN FUHRER!' (you) She RRRRRRRRRRRRREAALLLY thinks she's The Big I-Am and your Boss by miles, doesn't she...bloody hell..... f*ckiit - I've changed my mind. Do it at the alter. Not sure if I'm joking or not. I might be "hangry", though... long day, no food. Was worried it might just make me hungry. (HAHAHAHAHAHA....that takes first place for the best (worst) World Salad I've ever heard!) But back to (greater) seriousness: The only answer to that, regardless of whom or what to you the person were, should be something like this: 'Who the eff do you think you are - my Dad?! I wouldn't even let HIM make that silly threat, so what do you think gives YOU the right?! ....And you want me to sign up for a lifetime TO THIS?! Shape up or ship out, darlin! Quite frankly, I'm EMBARRASSED...that any partner of mine could come out with such bloody-minded DRIVEL - to ANYONE, LET ALONE ME...' (then saunter off, disgustedly). "Now it wouldn't bother me if she had had therapy and not told me till after, so I'm not sure why she'd be upset." Course not. And - ya do now - right? "Looked online and people are saying both sides that that is good and bad, that I should tell her but she may be controlling/ worried talking about her." 'MAY' be. (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!) Yeah, and the Pope may be Catholic. "Can you put a link for Thea's thread please?" (Actioned) (Did you end up reading all of it?) "This is has all made me feel quite cowardly and unconfident in myself, though the later has been for a while." Yeah, I know. That's WHY Malignants (btw Martha's narc-description is of a Benign, IMO) they're called Emotionally Dangerous. But, YOU'RE doing WELL! The awakening of, not just Conscious You but your primitive Inner Animal (he's going to mutineer you for you....YOU won't feel a thing and will live the rest of your life dead proud, haha) is slow for the first few 'minutes' (because yours has been in a deep sleep) (drugged), but then............. HA-HA-HA-HA....HOH-HOH-HOH-HOH.....'Run, Evil Forrestina' (- in terms of the Actions, if no in the style of delivery). It's still you, though.:) Like I say - who gives a damn about whether you nick her motorbike to escape from this life-screwing (poor but not unfortunate) out-of-order, female Biological Android? (Ever seen Bladerunner?) Right, gonna stuff my face then continue. If I can't continue tonight, I'll continue tomorrow because I've got the whole day to myself (lights Sparkler). But let me indulge myself and 'leave' you with this little extra eye-opener. You're inner animal is RUH-HUH-HUH-HEEEAAALLY terrifying! THAT'S WHY all this. You daren't unleash him, even though he's your best friend and bodyguard. ...that scary that even YOU are scared of him. (Bet that's got you thinking and remembering your childhood?)

I keep bottling it. Even though she had a pop at me Infront of my parents at breakfast yesterday morning and when I bought it up she didn't apologise. Went out for her friends husbands restaurant opening in the evening which was ok. And then normal this morning. We are of to her folks today to stay over and I am so anxious, cause there is only 4 days left for me to make a decision before a large amount of money goes.

I just can't do it. But living in a constant up and down cycle

Well, the evidence is saying, deep-down, you CAN do it - obviously NEED to do it - hence are doing it. And in the meantime, are managing that build-up of conscious steam by venting about it. Don't forget we're, all of us, just more-advanced, talking, virtually hairless Apes; there's never any getting around that. The ape, including your ancestors, were apes for far longer than they have been, "humans". Some parts of your most basic, survivalist (as including, perversely, altruist) mind and actions can't be curbed or stopped. Hence the saying and Stones song lyrics - "You can't always get what you want, but what you *need*. And if you're altruist, meaning, can't win - nor see it as such - without taking one or however-many *with* you, then maybe your inner animal and a high number of human ancestors have dealt with her type before and know that to let her experience a breakdown (in this case, called Narcissistic Collapse, followed by Narcissistic Petit Mort), is the best and kindest thing anyone could do for her. After all, you have ears, even if you don't know you're hearing something - or possibly the innate wisdom - or both... You're undoubtedly aware that too many erstwhile, NPD-knowledgeable therapists, do report that the point where a Narcissist will seek help/counselling is where THEY need it, THEY will benefit from it (AND, let's not fail to take into account - get to talk about themselves, endlessly, virtually uninterrupted (unless they're acting-out by talking shite). It pops their massive bubble and leaves them no choice. Rock Bottom. Currently, *knowing* you want to leave or at least stop the runaway train, yet stubbornly staying ON the thing to a degree that equals 100% determined YET FEELING GUILTY YOU ARE. ...and that the Cognitive Dissonance is NOT between stay or leave, but, 'she needs a damn good spank and reality-slap, and I'm the bloke to give it to her' and 'OMG, I couldn't possibly be that nasty!'. What if it's NOT nasty? Do I think I'm so subjective I even COULD say anything I didn't mean without making that clear? I meant it, in fact. Do it at the alter. Shove her train off her sick traintrack and into the hands of a rescuer de luxe (GP (doctor) referral to--therapist--ditto, to NPD-specialist therapist). This is the tactic your life/apperance overhaul merchants use (e.g. the UK's Suzanne & Trinny, hosts of "What Not To Wear" (YouTube it) and, more lately, "Ten Years Younger": strip the client down, mentally, right before building them up and far bigger/higher than before. ...Well, a watered-down version, obviously, because the clients weren't mentally impaired, haha. But if, as a bloke, you'd thought programmes like those were purely about changing and improving your looks, you'd be wwwwwway off, that's just the surface...the smoke & mirrors of it.) Tearing them down to build them back up again.... bit like Lee Majors in The Six Million Dollar Man ("Gentlemen, we have the technology")...all before your time but the concept is still part of the modern-day, common consciousness. Maybe it's Conscious You, literally internally fighting the will of your Inner Ape (and dispenser of so-called 'primitive' Urges, when primitive does NOT automatically mean stupid OR WE WOULDN'T ALL STILL BE HERE) that's the true cause of the anguish? If you're doing it altruistically but in a way where you finally - FINALLY - get to, metaphorically, give her and her Despotic attitude the kind of damn good spanking that might just save her and all who sail in her AND is - in terms of Jungle Law (which is where she's put you) - well-earned by you - then, IS that a bad act? I think you need to give this potential theory a lot of serious thought. If you can stop this ongoing battle in your head (begun by Conscious You), you'll finally see it. It's called "(NPD-Victim) Parentification". I.e. DEEP DOWN YOU KNOW YOU'RE MOSTLY HER DAD (because she behaved you into feeling so). Google . actually no, I'll find it for you in a min (tick-tock!). Because they are thus, underneath the by-rote behaviour (mask of sanity), ultimately think and act like, (permanently fumingly resentful and 'owed') little kids (or whatever age their trauma occured or came to a head). If you want my honest opinion - that was behind the 'harsh' way I rid myself of my own NSpath, despite, yes, it was incredibly ego-equalising into the bargain. It felt like jumping off a cliff though. Or should I say, abandoning my own small child. (DEFINITELY!) But he WASN'T my small child and neither had I advertised for nor chosen a small child. His whole advertising campaign and first few years' test-drive had been nothing but a HUGE PRETENSE...just to get his hooks well and truly into me, mostly, my parenting/altruism urges. I'd made it crystal-clear that I'd wanted an equal, compatible, my kind of sexy, ADULT to have a romantic relationship with - OR NOTHING...EVER AGAIN IF THAT'S WHAT IT MEANT. You/your brain, got kidnapped and that's all there is too it. NPD-AsPD is an Equal Opportunities condition, no gender discriminaton whatsoever, neither between victims nor perpetrators. As a bloke, however, it's downright mindblowing to realise you got kidnapped by a WOMAN when your whole life you'd been systematically led to believe that (1) you're the captain of your own ship, and (2) highly unlikely ever to find yourself, to all intents and purposes, *defenceless against a female*. (Welcome to theh club.) Meanwhile, females are (on the whole) taught that they would never find themselves at threat from their romantic 'other half' (or anyone who claimed to love them and, for long enough, behaved too-convincingly like it was true). It USED to be, statistically, that means worst fear was The crux, here, when it comes to who's gratituously nasty and who's just a 'Tough Lover' is: The Intention, as proves the justification (when the gloves are already off but the target-victim needs it pointed out for Guilt-blasting purposes). You just wanted a lovely life with a lovely lady. You didn't start this. You've been on the defense the whole way through, not the attack. You just wanted a bloody, NORMAL, LOVELY life-partner! You didn't ASK for this, you didn't 'earn' it. It was just bad luck/timing (or good, in terms of gain in iQ+eQ and mental strength, now forevermore happily teamed-up). Maybe that explains why you won't answer most of my direct questions? Because they're irrelevant, that you already know this is not something rational but 'how the Cro-Magnons and Neanderthals used to do it'?. (In other ancient cultures, however, once they were sure the over-difficult, peace-disturbing individual couldn't-wouldn't change, they'd take them for a walk before pushing them off a cliff! Bit extreme, but - there you have it.) As long as you're balancing Meaning Well with Saving Yourself, then - pff... you know her best? Whadda ya think NOW? (wiggles eyebrows challengingly). STILL too ashamed of just being human or kinda liberated? Pretty-much ALL people who've been through what you've been through - what can ONLY be understood by those who have! -would cheer you on if you're subconsciously-deliberately 'aiming' to make that fake wedding-day the catalystic start of her mental recovery (or at least, learning coping and self-control skills)? 'Kill or Cure', eh. (PS: I don't suppose you're a doctor or something? That would explain you?) Anyhoo..got more to say but I'm going to take a wee break. Slept VERY late today so despite it's gone 2.30, I'm wide awake. Back in a bit...

PS: Let's keep it real: Had our parents' generation and those before them, not stayed safely passive inside their own bubbles of delusion - we should have been warned about 'people' like this. We're not talking mere emotionally-parasiting-&-devastating NPD, here. Sociopaths with Narcissism are NOT funny. They want more than just psycho-emotional power over their victim. Despotic, Delusional, Paranoid, openly or secretly Grandiose, Coercive, Covert-and-Overt AND Ambient(!) - ever antagonistic - (Passive-Agressive the rest of the time), Greedy, Sadistic, Perpetually Bored, Envious, Jealous, Resentful for nothing... Wanting to take over OR remove you your life and personality cocktail... They can and do ruin lives and sanities. Give me a Covert or Covert-Vulnerable any day. They're small fry in-comparison. Seriously, getting rid of my NSpath (first-ever, in a romantic, up-close sense) was the first time I had really had to really put my mind and back into it, even knowing precisely what and how and what variation(s) to do...ad-lib on-the-spot. the truth is this: it always does tend to costs you, the 'victim', even financially, to get these, ultimately financially-conning, parasites, away from you, finally. Cost me. Well worth every penny. Especially when I consider what I've SAVED! I in fact, see it, that I saved my gorgeous kiddie, including his financial security. With you, you'd be saving your unborn one, wouldn't you. Is all of this starting to make you feel better? Because if it is - we have our answer. If it is, then - You're Daddy and your wayward, delinquent Daughter needs saving via the dressing-down of a lifetime, before it's too late...and you'd rather you did it than some stranger out in the real world who WOULDN'T give a shite about her and really hurting her? That's how I felt so - if no-one else understands and talks to you, you can talk to me. And join an Outreach or similar survivor's club. You can talk to them as well. We get it. :) It's just that, it's not something most people dare do. :)))))) Well, if you's a *natural-born* Warrtior on a *societally*-protective scale? Then you's a Warrior and that's that and it's yer job. (I will still find you the link on Parentification, though...)

Oops - sorry - didn't finish: "It USED to be, statistically, that" men's worst fear regarding women, was, that a woman might laugh at him. Women's, was - and still is - that a man might kill her. Not in La-La Land. Gender is immaterial...just a prop.

Here we go: Professor Sam Vaknin... He deals mainly with Coverts and Covert-Vulnerables (because they're the most emotion-mangling), but, as I've said, your NSpath plays Long Con, 99% Covertly, because you're a cushy, for-life, JOB to them, meaning that, long-term providing the ACTIONS of someone in-love, not just the words, in order to get to where they can start letting the mask fall off (albeit some rip it completely off in the Hotel Honeymoon Suite, I kid you not), is WORTH the (rare) spurt of actual hard work (for 18mths to 2-yrs, usually), this case, character acting 24/7. Because, let alone peck/punch you into emotional hospital, they'll parasite you for-life if you 'let' them. From the start, it includes Parentification of you by the malig narc and the crux reason(s) behind it. (This is what you eventually realise, and how simple it all gets, when you have/make the time to think deeper thus go far deeper than popular, surface information.) Obviously (and annoyingly for you), in your case you'll have to reverse the genders ('she' for he, 'father' for mother): "Narcissist Needs You to Fail Him, Let Go (with Azam Ali)" : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bF2NyJ-ouI (He lets you skip to the next section, which is handy when you're in a hurry.) Summary quote: "If you're a GOOD partner - you're the wrong partner for a Narcissist". Tell me if this makes you feel any better as well? More pertinent links to follow...there's one where he goes into Parentification in greater detail and real-life application in terms of emotional impact on you - and "the raging guilts" - as a very real (yet not insurmountable) barriers to 'letting them go' ....can't quite re-find it yet.

PS: whether they mean to hurt you each or any time, or not, is immaterial. If I right now stood painfully on your foot in a hob-nail boot and failed to have the initiative to remove it, as opposed to know what I'm doing (and why). just pretending I didn't, and failed to remove it - and this KEPT happening, in fact, just happened more than twice - WHO CARES? A broken toe or foot is still a broken toe or foot. Evil or Thick As Pig Sh*t . Who cares. You only need to know what she is in order to have the special lenses with which to finally see and appreciate how horrendously cut and bruised and fractured you have already become during your time of trying-trying-trying-trying.. to make a normal relationship with an abnormal anti-relationshipist (made-up word, well needed) work. In a crisis situation - prime example, plane problems - if you wanna be the hero then it's, *Own Oxygen Mask On First*. You're bugger-all use to anyone else, otherwise (think about it).

PS: I forgot to say: NSpaths always DO have good traits too. But, unbeknownst to us, their motives for having them are subversive and still selfish (which, alone, doesn't predict great survival odds for you). PLUS, getting infected (via your eyes, ears, empathy conduit) by a (relational) nutter is getting infected by a nutter, REGARDLESS that at times the nutter is in a sunny, friendly mood instead. PPS: Feb 2 2024 at 14:06: "I'm now looking at a wedding venue 2 months prior to the agreed date to start looking and it's been only a month. Only a few things have been honoured that discussed, for example her helping to cook, this has been a on going issue as no matter how tired I am I still have to do it and haven't had help for years, she has cooked maybe 5 times since Nye which is more than the previous few months. She promised to not hold resentment for the ultimatum and that it took longer than she wanted for me to propose, though has thrown it out as a passive aggressive comment during a disagreement." And this last post - Mar 29 2024 at 10:01: "She is finally going to cook dinner tonight. After months of not. As you know this was one of the big things for me before Christmas and as I said in this thread. " Meaning - as I understand it - this: At February 2nd, her refusal (bar a truly negligible amount) to do her share of the cooking (assuming she works shorter hours?) had been ongoing for YEARS. So it's not 'after months of not', is it. YOU mean, after years and after a month since having promised but not delivered. Well, she HAS to do something as easy as cooking, now, doesn't she. Anything but have even a bit of sympathy for what this MAJOR COERCING is so obviously doing to you and have to DELAY THE MARRIAGE. Note she's still only doing the bare minimum, though. Sod her good side. Because - What good is it doing you? If it were enough of a good side, AND GENUINE - in fact, were having ANY effect worth having, then, we wouldn't be having this conversation. She may as well NOT have a 'good side'. It's not her, anyway. It's her acted character. Upshot is: She's MORE Dark than Light, and secretly, whether she knows it or not, even her Light is toxic for anyone with a healthy human mind. So... Game Over, anyway. Or - Registered As, finally. (Malignant Narcissist or Sociopath With Malig. Narcissism: 'Over at Hello'.) You probably haven't got the time or headspace to answer me, but - you must be a pretty good cook by now? And I want you to think about that because it's a little-known, huge compensation/reward for the victim AS A THEME: "Were it not for Exipoopoos, I wouldn't be able to cook like I do - or at all!". That's just one of the many mini bonuses though. The main one is this: Not living daily with being confused, frustrated, hurt, thwarted, disappointed, insulted, seriously hard-done-by, disempowered, ashamed at your own inertia, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.,..... IMPORTANT POINT/QUESTION: After all, had you known back then (when you were buying her a drink or whatever) what you know now - would you still buy her that drink or be climbing out of the pub loo window?

"We reconciled this morning before work, which means she is done with it, but I never am, I carry all the arguments with me, which is a narcissistic trait apparently, though I don't think I'm am narcissistic but worry about it." Nope. That's normal for a victim. That's what I point out in terms of "NSpath - the gift that keeps on giving": he/she doesn't just upset you once per week or fortnight because it can TAKE the victim 1-2 weeks to GET OVER that pasting! And then there's - just KNOWING you're life has become like this yet feeling unable and/or incapable of escaping...losing your self-respect and dignity. The abuse ends up IN ACTUAL EFFECT as being FULL-TIME. (Good side, schmood schmide. So does a bad-tempered pet Tarantula or Rabid Puppy. You still have to have THEM put-down at the Vet's doncha? Because it's become Them or You. And you didn't start it. You had good intentions (as above).)

Important PS: have you got any nasty or weird notes/texts/emails/letters/post-its from her?

If you think about it, we've come full-circle back to what Mannie said, look: MANALONE - Feb 5 2024 at 11:25 Member since Dec 2013 'when someone shows you who they really are, you best believe them'... is some of the finest advice on offer. Listen to your gut, it's talking to you & forget your guilt which has come from your partner screaming at you for 3.5 years about not meeting her standards. You need to ask yourself just what values & standards you guys share & what about goals? Do you really want & need to get married to a woman who controls you? Of course she doesn't want you talking to others because she wants to isolate you from your friends etc - it's typical behaviour of a controller. (PS: in fact, he was a member long before I joined.)

I nearly did it yesterday morning, as we were booking the DJ for the wedding I couldn't do that and closed the page and told her I want happy. I told her about all the things she promised before Christmas and none of them have been honoured, everything has felt rushed. How she gets her phone out when I'm talking to her, how she has put no effort into things she said she would do, how she goes back on it. There were tears, I was shaking getting it all of my chest. But when she asked me "do you still want to continue" I said "I don't know" and then after promising she won't let me down again after not knowing it was having this big an effect on me, and promised to do these things I needed. She also had a pop at me Saturday morning Infront of my parents which I bought up and highlighted she never apologised. Shes apologised for everything and we ended up still going to her folks for Easter and just got back. She seemed ok mostly but it feels very uneasy now. I just couldn't do it. She said she hopes that I don't change my mind in a few days.

During the chat she mentioned some of the good things she has done. Like drops everything including maybe getting into trouble at work to come and help when I have had anxiety problems or been sick. She calls me everyday to check in to see how I'm getting on. She is fully supportive of I loose my job ( as I'm having a disaplinary) we'll be ok. It's more the day to day stuff and treatment of me that has been the issue.

Here's a very comprehensive set of explanations (Sam Vaknin again) for their attitudes and behaviours: Giant 'Reality-Slap' for you at 14:38, in terms of, actually futile to go ahead with someone that narcissistic and empathy-less, anyway. Albeit that, the level he's talking about is, Severe. I say they ARE half-human - Ferel - because I've seen their truly stripped and vulnerable 'underneathies', too many times. It would be easier if Vaknin were RIGHT. So I'm not being biased or subjective there. Maybe, it's just that he's 'mixed' with far-more severe types than I, whom, indeed, are that far gone that 'the lights are on but nobody's home'. Someone was DEFINITELY at home with all of 'mine'. I've given you this because you need to cease viewing her through the Normal Person lens. I mean it - she might put on an embarrassing drama (like Duck-Face in Four Weddings) (because those are always handy for Little Miss/Mr Vomity), but, truthfully, she'll just be furious for having been outfoxed as well as escaped from, 'too early'. Not heartbroken...bereft...all of that. That's what a normal person feels. That portion of guilt, likewise, is wholly misguided. You expect a reaction, but usually the person eventually calms-down and sees sense. Not this lot. She'll have another 'sucker' plonked in your place FAR TOO EARLY for anyone who was genuinely 'in-mourning', but not too early for an nspath - you watch. And even then, that won't necessarily guarantee that she'll stay out of your hair from then on. _______________________________ Anyway, I see you've newly posted so - give me a mo...

Bloody hell, left out the bloody link again - sorry... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bF2NyJ-ouI (...now I have to wait a few minutes before it'll post again.... I'll read up...) Ooh! First paragraph! This I've got to see!

""I nearly did it yesterday morning, as we were booking the DJ for the wedding I couldn't do that and closed the page and told her I want happy." Ooh! Nearly is bloody GOOD! THUMBS....UP, THAT MAN! "I told her about all the things she promised before Christmas and none of them have been honoured, everything has felt rushed." You didn't!....did you????? Cor blomey, I wasn't expecting THAT! "How she gets her phone out when I'm talking to her," OHCH....DO NOT REMIIIND ME.... (fckneridslcfcknnldflhrwoñeurñowAAAARGH!) Sorry about that. It's just - you're dating my Nex. Not actually, but...may as well be. It's that limited psychology with its correspondingly limited screenplay, narrative, actions and dialogue; they're the one type you CAN say 'are all the same'. Anyhoo... "how she has put no effort into things she said she would do, how she goes back on it."" GOD, I'm proud of you. Wow. The Lion (..er, Liony Ape) has awoken....AND LLLLLLOOK AT HIM GOOOOO.... How did it feel? "There were tears," Course. She musn't forget those. "I was shaking getting it all of my chest." I'll bet! That's why I'm so proud of you! "But when she asked me "do you still want to continue" I said "I don't know"" No 'But'. That was perfect! "and then after promising ((yawn)) she won't let me down again after not knowing it was having this big an effect on me, and promised to do these things I needed." Ah. Deaf, dumb AND blind, is she? Well, we'll SEE, WON'T WE! (Mantra for you - in your head AND out-loud to her: "Don't keep telling me - SHOW me".) "She also had a pop at me Saturday morning Infront of my parents which I bought up and highlighted she never apologised." Course she did. She's testing and priming them in-one. To see if they'll leap to your defense (like their kid, still) or whether they know you better (full-grown, capable man), including that you can DEFINITELY handle a giant arsehole, female or not (not). "Shes apologised for everything" Oh, what - all lumped together like that? Sorry, she's not getting ANY benefit of the doubt from me. Even MORE so since I've learned she tried to show dominance over you in front of your parents! HOW INAPPROPRIATE a thing to do on your first meeting with your future In-Laws!!! (Massive Tick!). It also comes under, 'Loves to spoil special occasions (for you)'. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if at the alter she took her knickers off and threw them at the 'audience'. Not that I've ever seen or heard about anyone DOING that....it just popped in. (Hahaha, sorry. I'm finding her too 'ridiculous'.) "and we ended up still going to her folks for Easter and just got back. She seemed ok mostly but it feels very uneasy now." PUTTING IT MILDLY, YEAH! But WELL DONE!!!!!!! (I don't normally do that many exclamation-marks!) "I just couldn't do it. She said she hopes that I don't change my mind in a few days." What do you MEAN you couldn't do it? What on earth do you think you've just DONE? You've done THAT...IT. Sure, you haven't cancelled the wedding BUT...you HAVE trapped her RIGHT INTO a VERY TIGHT...corner. You've just told her she's on Probation. Are you that shocked that you didn't realise that? Hey....your individual style/manner/classiness is your business. Like I said, it matters not HOW you do it, just that you do it. You spelled it out like a gentleman....Bond, James, Bond (now look here, Miss Moneypenneh)... (Equally, you could have done whassisface from Allo-Allo: "Leesten verree carefoolly, Ah weell say zeess only WANCE...". NO. MATE - NO. THAT WAS AN INCREDIBLE ACHIEVEMENT. Aw, sorry....did I forget to tell you about how I coach you to high-jump 8 foot so that you can't fail at reaching the actual target (6ft)? Aw, nooo, sorry. :D (ducks and runs) Dead proud and very impressed. :) (You and Thea are uncannily similar....Two graceful Swans together...all calm on top, but feet paddling furiously at Warp Speed underneath...LOL)

Re in a corner: One foot wrong - no wedding. One foot wrong, post-wedding - no marriage (annulment). You're completely safe/covered. And she can't say you didn't warn her in terms even a toddler could have understood. Changed my mind... Are you in Insurance?

...And she CAN'T complain because - that's SO Fair Enough. Sah?.... You are an Officer & A Gentleman. :) (Did you see that film, btw?)

You've just made my evening. :)))))))) As for you: give it a few days and you're going to start strutting (again).

PS: "During the chat she mentioned some of the good things she has done. Like drops everything including maybe getting into trouble at work to come and help when I have had anxiety problems or been sick. She calls me everyday to check in to see how I'm getting on. She is fully supportive of I loose my job ( as I'm having a disaplinary) we'll be ok. It's more the day to day stuff and treatment of me that has been the issue." So what. Why can't you have someone that is reliable on a practical level whilst confidence-BOLSTERING, rather than shredding, on the emotional level?? That's what you'd get with a normal-healthy, kind, loving, giving, earnest woman, anyway. Why do you think you have to settle for less than other blokes/humans deserve and aim and go for? What - just because you're suffering the very anxiety she/her illness has induced in you, unbeknownst to you? Well, anyway, it's a moot point for a while, now that you've struck a balance and found a way to construct the definitive litmus test, with Escape door and equipment at the ready. :) "It's more the day to day stuff and treatment of me that has been the issue." Every day - yes - exactly. Little things....Lots and lots and lots and (aaargh) LOTS AND LOTS of little, niggly things. (This is about the built-up/layered-on effect on you, not the minutae of the items/incidents themselves. The basics and fundamentals...including not trying to dominate your partner, even in front of his parents (woah...), which are 'the taken care-of pennies that allow the pounds to look after themselves'. Keep writing here, everything that happens from now ...(- 'Captain's Log...Star Date 2024...')...the good things she does (and/or fakes), bad things she does (and/or fakes), ones you're not sure about.... This should be interesting because, aside from what's going on on the surface, there's still the fact that - you've cornered her...and she won't like that. Let's see...CAN she self-control for long eough, ergo change? Or not?....will she just try to be sneakier or injure you via a more creative channel in order to punish you for that and knock your new-found confidence out of you again? Not saying she'll succeed this time. But - is that urge TOO STRONG for her to keep a tight lid on from now on-Amen (now that she's been officially warned), with the exception of rare, stressy occasions...the normal reasons for when someone flips, creates 'a drama-for-two, I mean. ? ("Dann-dann-DAAANNNN!")

Also (if there's a next time she does this) - tell her: it's not ABOUT the GOOD stuff she's done. It's about her Dark side being too dark for you, so much so that it CANCELS OUT the bonding that her good stuff at the time achieved. (Duu-uu-uuh?) But when they've no leg to stand on - Narcs always do fling in your face the little they've done for you compared to the reality of the situation, which is, you've done far more. So that's just another (Tick!), whether Playing Dumb or ACTUALLY Dumb (eQ of a flea). (Back to watching that space with you...)

Seriously, though...You've just got her completely and utterly surrounded. (Yeeeeee-HAW!) Like a dunking chair. Can she swim (properly for-once) and save herself? ("Dann-dann-.... yeah, alright, LOL)

I'll just make this part clearer (you probably haven't fully 'come down' yet)... ""I just couldn't do it. She said she hopes that I don't change my mind in a few days." What do you MEAN you couldn't do it? What on earth do you think you've just DONE? You've done THAT...IT. Sure, you haven't cancelled the wedding BUT...you HAVE trapped her RIGHT INTO a VERY TIGHT...corner. You've just told her she's on Probation." Remember I said - Not Sure equals No? (Even 'probably' isn't Yes. Only Yes or I'm sure, is "I do".) And yet, she hopes you DON'T change your mind in a few days?? Nah, (Playing Dumb/Gaslighting,) she's literally tried to assign a new meaning to it...put words into your mouth,....to mean, I am sure...Hence, hopes you don't change your mind in a few days. ...unless that was a typo on your part and you meant 'hopex that I change my mind in a few days"? RsVP. But I'm thinking it wasn't a typo. She gets it. Despite her pathetic attempt to pretend it reads the other way ('Narcs - twist everything 180 degrees'...Opposites Day inhabitants...). But...that's sleight of hand or trick of the light, that is. Tiny...Missable...But Effective. Subliminal, if you like...meant to get past your Consciousness, totally unnoticed (or dismissed by the victim as nothing). I'll show you an example: Once upon a time there was a a little girl called Red Riding Hood. ...But obviously, hers is a more 'ser-fist-i-kaytid' version because - not to be taken lightly - NSpaths *are* master manipulators (when they can be arsed....highly mentally lazy, they are).... veterans (started early childhood rather than the teens).... got away with stuff for too long, grown bigger and bigger..... RARR...Crabby/Wet-Weekend/Killjoy, Hyper-Critical, duplicitous Covert becomes Monster (and secretly angrier than ever...for having been spat-out so many times....NSpaths always over-do it. Long-Con merchants who can only do Short-Con before their arse starts to increasingly spill out). Probably more like this example: No, I can't meet you at the cinema on Friday / Great, see you there - 8-o-clock sharp!...

Thank you, she was very upset and has promised to not let me down. I just couldn't say that I wanted to leave. She has sprang into action and tried to find a hobbies at home, hadn't interrupted me. I'm pretty certain I'm being hoovered. And given the past (above) I can't help but think that it's gunna stop at some point and just back to normal. It's Friday when about £4k needs to be paid. I'm still abit mad at myself that another opportunity has been given and keep hoping

"Thank you, she was very upset and has promised to not let me down." You're welcome. :) Promised not to let you down. Hmm. Let's believe it when we see it. "I just couldn't say that I wanted to leave." No. Because that bit follows on from if she STILL fails to keep her word, etc., etc. First and final warning. Now On Probation. That's fair....Fair to her, considering, until now, you haven't been this clear (lent extra weight and clarity for the When, Where and How), and also fair to the 'relationship'. THAT way, having done the decent thing (never mind the late hour - just that you HAVE, IN-TIME) - IF she can't change her attitude, really is a chocolate teapot, YOU will be able to walk away from that fauxlationship - easily, quickly, and with your head held high, thanks to a clean conscience. You've said it to yourself and just said it here, though. Now it'd only be a little leap if you find you do have to say it to her. It's up to her, now. Only she can save the relationship - by repairing the holes that only she punched in it. It's like a wooden fence. Merely saying the word 'Sorry' doesn't fix the holes, meaning, if she punches any more, there'll quickly come a time when there're more holes than fence (which is why you've been panicking)...and it'll crumble to dust. No warning - just PLEUGH! You've given her the floor, but 'owned' the disco. Can she learn to permanently stick to the Neurotypical-Empath Dance? If not - get out of the NT-Empath 'disco', you imposter, and let me find a NORMAL, nice, kind-hearted, decent, fun, FAIR...etc., ...Actual. Equal. 'DANCE' PARTNER. Team Us. I doubt it, though. I mean - ...Humiliating you in front of your parents... - WHHHHHHHAT-AH!?!??) (- another NSpath symptom, called, Risking the Relationship - "NSpath - takes risks"). I'm betting it came under "Dog Whistling" as well (google). And I'll bet if you'd turned around and accusted and belittled HER in front of HER parents - all Hell would have broken loose, at least in the car going home (the entire journey)! "She has sprang into action and tried to find a hobbies at home, hadn't interrupted me." Noted. Tell me if it's not sustained. "I'm pretty certain I'm being hoovered." Well deduced. :) "And given the past (above) I can't help but think that it's gunna stop at some point and just back to normal." ("Snap!" - up there) "It's Friday when about £4k needs to be paid." Eee. Okay. "I'm still abit mad at myself that another opportunity has been given and keep hoping" It's a process, not a one-off, impulsive decision and act. You've just taken your exam at the University Of Life (Masters Degree) as will leave you forevermore capable of asserting with and dealing with ANY body, any time, anywhere. For a piddly 4k or so. Uni costs, what, 30k these days (student loans). Cheap at a FRACTION of the price! Don't worry about it. You're on the unstoppable conveyorbelt to Better Off-ville - whichever way it plays-out (Win/Win). The progress you've made has been surprisingly rapid, ac...tually :p. ;)

PS: Interrupted while you're doing what, BTW? And what's the Disciplinary about? Falling asleep at your desk or just not being as productive as you used to, by any chance? (If it has anything to do with her effect, you're going to have to tell them. They should have learned enough, themselves, to understand.) (Does it?)

Interrupted me whilst speaking. She does it all the time or gets her phone out whilst I'm talking. I've got a disaplinary for leaving a small gas leak. It was a few weeks ago, so I can't remember what I was thinking during the job. Is it worth risking £4k over, she has been very concerned about it this week, I think she wanted to do it tonight but I've had a splitting headache so haven't done it. Honestly since I said what I said at the weekend I feel a whole lot better. I'm just still not sure if I can hold my promise to not change my mind, I'm seeing the changes but has time ran out now and it's too little too late. I think you've said it's not just the last few months of being engaged and waiting for a change it's the previous times before and the cycles of diminishing effort. I don't understand why I can't just call it off.

Half of me wants to and half of me doesn't.

Hahaha- yeah, I do realise that. That's what Cognitive Dissonance is - half of you saying No, the other half, Yes. Hence the book title "Too Good To Leave/To Bad to Stay". I have to be honest: if you'd ordered and read it by now, we'd no longer have this hard-set Torn-ness. Why haven't you? "Interrupted me whilst speaking. She does it all the time or gets her phone out whilst I'm talking." Oh god. This one, even on its own, is so incredibily frustrating, it's INFURATING. And it works to push victims too far, to where most finally lose control and commit 'Reactive Abuse' (google). Try this one: "Excuse-me for talking while you're interrupting!". And maybe add - "Were you ALWAYS this bad-mannered?". Start judging and nagging *her* in a superior, snobby-toned, looking DOWN on her way ("Air, I say - ugh - remove this specimen, Jeeves!") to step UP instead of trying to drag you down. Boo-Hoo is what they want; they don't expect, 'Ugh, I'm so unimpressed/turned-off...ugh! - no - get away from me (peasant)'. She wants a constant competition? Get her running YOUR field events-choice, not hers!...and give her hell! You realise they antagonise and provoke you because deep-down they WANT you to dominate them and take total control, like a parent to a 'lazy' Teen? They just don't want to admit that's what they want so instead they provoke, until you go, 'Rrrrrrrright, that's IT, I've had ENOUGH of you! This nonsense stops NOW - TODAY - (etc.)'. Just keep it a secret and act in front of all third parties as if SHE'S the boss-mover-shaker. And also, act around her like she is as well (rolls eyes). (Not a huge ask. More like, collosal. :p Life's too bloomin' short for such needless, time-consuming crap.) Over-indulged-with-crap-but-neglected-of-nutrients, or simply neglected - they were still a slave to the parental/whomever Master, who vowed on leaving home to never to be anyone's Slave again, never having been shown that there was a third, healthy option: Cooperatives aka Teammates. That's why your Coverts, when transitioning (i.e. degenerating) into Sociopath level, start to have to include in their 'get out of jail free card' bag of tricks, the faked Vulnerability and childlike-ness...the Boo-Hoos. Because they start to do Overt as well...as a distraction, a smokescreen to keep your nose away from sniffing-out the Covert stuff. If you think about it, what you're seeing when they whip out the Pity Ploy as an unfair, under-the-belt, defence shield, is a sudden switch from Bossy, Domineering Master to subordinate-subservient-obsequious Underling/Dependent (or even that variation, which is, a sickeningly cutesy, little-kiddie "Tee-hee!" (as in, oops...a total Minimisation ploy if ever I saw one!), like The Queen Of Hearts. Anything to dis-arm you of your rightfully angry reaction, confrontation, and demand for answers).......zero fault-finding, over-indulging and -praising (i.e. Crap) parent, whereby Little Johnny or Jane could do no wrong (despite they so did)? (PS: Didn't you notice that so many of the Spoilt kids at school tended to be anything from podgy to fat?) I cured my spath of the Pity Ploys...told him (nicely) that crying left his face ugly. He was sub-type Somatic so - aim, fire, bullseye. (Never forget: not Boo-hoo, why you being so mean to me - UGH, UNCLEAN AND BENEATH ME! Or get bossily parental. I kid you not: when I growled/sniped at my spath to 'go to your room!' - he bloody did! I couldn't believe it (because he was a giant one).) Basically, their parental deficit is huge and can't be filled in other ways by emotional thickies. It'll be morbidly fascinating at first for you to do all this experimenting and discover how EASY it is to manipulate THEM into cooperating and doing the right thing, or even to turn the tables in one, fell swoop. But it soon loses its charm. That's the trouble. They're a full-time ucking job. WORSE than kids! "I've got a disaplinary for leaving a small gas leak. It was a few weeks ago, so I can't remember what I was thinking during the job." I bloody knew it!! And yet here she is, basically demanding and blackmailing you to SPEND money! Money you might well badly need! 'We'll be okay'? HOW? Manalone was spot-on. Uber-selfish (...like a kid with no understanding or no care - me, me, me, impressive big day...). BASICALLY, she's put your job in jeopardy. DEFINITELY spill the beans to your employers but show them this if you have to ("Hello! :)). That sort of on-the-job oversight is a highly common occurrence (tip-off for them in terms of noticing that Victim Flag in future) when your mental in-tray was heaving under all HER crap! Unless they're similar to her, I'm sure they've been bullied in their time. All the nicest people have. They just didn't used to like admitting it, for fear of being seen as weak. It's not weak. It's having a natural human side with lots of vital, nay specie-IMPERATIVE Empathy. They just CALL it weak - to diss it - because they daren't ever put themselves ("ever again!") These aren't reversible attitudes, though....far too ingrained by adulthood, plus the giant obstacle called, self-delusion (nothing wrong with me, I'm great and enjoying living my life as Master, but I didn't do nuffink, anyway!) (no, they're not enjoying; they're just out of ideas and trapped forever, and employing their usual Defiance to protect their artificially over-inflated ego: "Didn't hurt anyway, mleugh!"). Me, I'm surprised back then that I even remembered to put my knickers on in the morning! Easy mistake to make in your situation. And it WON'T happen again because I'm here, doing the thinking/sorting FOR you, so your mind should be a lot freer from now on, until you've learned to fly Solo. So show them this. Don't ask - just show. (If she loses you your job I'm going to be completely and utterly FURIOUS! I'm sure you won't if they're 'real' and reasonable people, but - just saying. This woman has the potential to literally RAZE your life if you're (we're) not careful.) I doubt it, though, if you confide in them. It's the only sensible, self-preservationist thing to do. Really, they should be incredibly impressed for the fact of your resilience and resourcefulness in coming here for help, like a true Fixer/Dealer. AND the fact (despite you wouldn't have been aware of this) you're Speedy Gonzalez. AND even have the rare skill of Humility. (cough...just saying). Well, I used to hire and fire a lot. And I'd have hired you in a heartbeat. So don't touch that dial. Gotta break off for a few mins but haven't finished...

"I don't understand why I can't just call it off." Because your inner (bigger than you'd think!) scary animal wants to beat the sh*t out of her. Do you BLAME him? All the control YOU, the Gentleman Male, has, is HOW it's done. So there wouldn't be any physical nonsense. But the humiliation of being told "I Will Not" (I can't do this) in front of a whole church full of people (she's always trying to dupingly impress). Your ancestors obviously were around when the Village Stocks were all the rage. Most effective punishment and deterrent in history, that one! *Humiliation*. ('Bring back stocks!....when do we wannem? - NOW!') I mean - he 'in there' has chosen THE most spot-on counter-punishment anyone could have! What were the chances?! He seems to know an awful lot, doesn't he. (Do you ever get called an Old Soul?) Unfortunately, he has the advantage of no restraints and constraints (living unseen, not interested in social judgement). So he's doing better than you in that maraton arm-wrestle. I think it's great! Let's say it together: "Nobody puts Baby in the corner!" Honestly, if anything could turn her life around, that could. If the potential is truly THERE to 'save her from Narcissism', then - that will. If it doesn't - she's too far gone and doomed. I've also got a feeling that if the 'woman' can't trust and get along with YOU, she couldn't get along with *anyone*. PS: Are you a gas engineer or something, then? Was it at a customer's house? And I presume this, or anything like it, was a one-time, never before committed error? Jeez, mate. Poor you. The state you've been in. Anguish and Reduction isn't the word for it, is it. (((((((((((((((((((((HUG)))))))))))))))))))))))) It's definitely worth 4k to you, that's for sure. Maybe more? Anyway, you're proving to be a VERY smooth and skilled Narc-Slayer (still in-process). I'd not only hire you, I'd double your salary. IMAGINE being able to spot a Narc customer at 10 paces...how much money and trouble you'd save your company! You learn to see yourself as I see you, Sonny Jim. I see straighter, further and wider than most - AND around corners!

"Honestly since I said what I said at the weekend I feel a whole lot better. I'm just still not sure if I can hold my promise to not change my mind, I'm seeing the changes but has time ran out now and it's too little too late." Yup. But this is about you seeing this through, TAKING your well-earned Closure (who made HER decision-maker!?), and gaining an expansion of consciousness and mental skills that would normally take DECADES of smaller, pithier experiences and, I repeat, cost (in terms of a huge entourage of life-skills coaches/gurus) WAY-WAY-WAY more than 4k or even 10k. It's an amazing opportunity, in fact. This is transformative. You'll never fear anyone or anything again! Stop what you're doing and focus on this and really, really get it: you're in the process of getting the better of a serial slow-killer, who just kills people via the psyche instead of bodily (no scars, no proof) (wanna bet?!). *What does that make you?* It's also you combining everything that needs to be done/achieved, in-one. That's clever. Very efficient. Even getting close enough to the big day, still umm-ing and ah-ing, is potent enough to bring her to fairer heel (again, if it can be done). There's normal confidence, and then there's Narc-Slayer confidence. (Well!...What about me - how do I sound? ;))

Don't worry about the money anyway. With you coming out 10ft tall, you'll soon make that money back. For starters, with her gone you can get a lodger in (AND at full rate!). Said lodger and you could become great friends....you'd get to meet new people...possibly the ACTUAL woman of your dreams! Remember Einstein said: The sign of madness if doing the same thing over and over yet expecting different results? What you're doing is BIG. So the results/fruits are going to be big, too. ALSO - another relaxant. Yes it would cost more but it would be far easier (if she keeps up the good-girl act) to go ahead and then, one foot significantly wrong and - ANNUL.... The wedding would be old news, people would have got back to their normal weekly routines... a lot less fuss. But also a lot less transformative Humiliation. Still enough, though. Plus we have your defense at the ready on here, demonstrating that she's a brainwasher and coercive controller. Of COURSE someone coerced into marrying someone would be bound to 'come round' at SOME point following the big day. Exacerbated by THE SHOCK of the big day. It's her who's in the Lose/Lose position. WHICH *SHE* WITHOUT-QUESTION HAS EARNED (to point of, asked for). And don't forget that SHE HERSELF has the room to sense (like she's already begun) that going ahead might well land her in hot humiliation water...think better of it...and herself, delay/cancel (woo-hoo!). You can't lose. Not in the short-term, and nor in the long. Oh boy-oh-boy, did SHE pick on the wrong person! She must have been in a mad hurry to find a replacement for her last victim/Primary Supplier. Or maybe she equates gentle, not with amazing self-control plus empathy, but weakness (because her - it got her bashed). Well, she forgot the other: Really big dogs don't bark. Really. I don't see it that there IS any Lose outcome for you here. So try to relax now. You're in safe hands. (His.) Probably, after this, you and chimp-features will become best friends. And then it'll automatically always be Two Against One. And decisions will be easy. Just stop fighting and wait to SEE what your original Other Half does and by when! ("Dann-dann-DAAAAAAN!")

Thank you. So do you think I should continue with the engagement and give one last chance? As I promised myself before Christmas that this was the last chance and been hoovered again. The financial side of things, she has always earnt more than me an does pay more for anything she wants to do but I can't fully afford my half. I see what you mean about closure though it gives me the basis to say I gave all the chances I could. But I just keep getting this sinking stomach feeling whenever she mentions the wedding and payments.

On the other hand, if you really ARE stuck, this might nudge you out of it. I posted it in Jay's thread (so double-bracketed comments are to her, albeit, you yourself will relate to them) (and probably your bosses...there are a lot of 'dragons' to slay on ones way to the top, oh, yeah, baby...bet they could give you LOADS of advice!...and it'd be very bonding, too. Co-victims/survivors DO bond very quickly...which is precisely why Narcs (ridiculously) try to pretend to be a co-victim or are so deluded they actually convince themselves they are). ____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ TRIPLE-bracketed comments, however, are for you, A: ___________________________________________________________________________ Stages of Healing After Narcissistic Abuse Author: Hailey Shafir, LCMHCS, LPCS, LCAS, CCS Headshot of Benjamin Troy, MD Medical Reviewer: Benjamin Troy, MD Published: February 11, 2022 "Narcissistic abuse is insidious and can cause lasting effects like low self-esteem, trust issues, self-doubt, grief, depression, and anxiety.1,2,3,4 With time and treatment, it’s possible to heal and overcome these issues, recovering parts of yourself and your life that were lost to the abuser. Recovery is a process that often occurs in the ten distinct stages outlined in this article.3,4,5 What Is Narcissistic Abuse? People with narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) are more likely to be verbally, emotionally, sexually, and physically abusive towards others.2,4,6 While narcissists can use a wide range of abusive tactics against family, friends, and romantic partners, there are some abusive behaviors that are more common. 10 Examples of Narcissistic Abuse Specific abusive behavior from a narcissistic (((AS A PERVASIVE PATTERN))) might look like alienating, gaslighting, or attempting to control or dominate the victim. Identifying a narcissist’s abusive cycle can be a helpful first step to addressing it. Here are ten examples of narcissistic abuse:1,2,3,4 Alienating a person from their support system to isolate and control them (((TICK!))) Financially exploiting a person or using them for some other benefit or gain (((TICK!))) Stonewalling, sulking, or being cold as a way to “punish” their victim (((??))) Physical or sexual abuse or using threats of violence or abuse Repeated infidelity, which might be denied, weaponized, or blamed on the victim Playing mind games or using gaslighting techniques to make the victim doubt themselves (((TICK!))) Degrading someone or being verbally or emotionally abusive (((TICK!))) Distorting the situation and shifting blame to paint themselves as the victim (((TICK!))) Being controlling, domineering, jealous, or possessive (((TICK!))) Having unpredictable blow-ups (((OR MOODS))) mixed with kindness/affection (((TICK!))) Effects of Narcissistic Abuse Narcissistic abuse can have long-lasting effects. Being involved with a narcissist erodes your sense of self, lowers self-esteem, and causes crippling self-doubt.1,2,4,6 These impacts can show up in a number of ways for people, and often take several years (and a lot of therapy) to recover from.4 ((- not for you; you're young, you'll bounce back more quickly than, e.g. someone in their late 30s onwards.)) (((YOU, ABCD, ARE NATURALLY JUST PLAIN BOUNCY, HENCE MAKING SUCH PROGRESS SO RAPIDLY))) Some effects of narcissistic abuse include:2,3,4,6 ((Jae, if you could copy and paste this list into your reply post and add (tick!) for yes; (don't know); (cross) for no, that will help massively. And feel free to add your own:)) High levels of shame or feeling inadequate, unworthy, or “not good enough” Excessive self-doubt and difficulty making decisions independently Codependency or putting other people’s feelings and needs before your own Trust issues and trouble opening up or being vulnerable with others Feeling disconnected from your feelings, wants, and needs Trouble setting boundaries and forming healthy relationships Depression, anxiety, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), suicidal thoughts, and substance use Inner conflict about wanting to make your relationship with a narcissist work and needing to leave (((I CAN SEE/TELL - ALL OF THOSE))) 10 Stages of Healing After Narcissistic Abuse While each person’s experience of recovery from narcissistic abuse is different, there are reports of many similarities that present in a series of ten stages.3,4,5 Here are ten common stages of healing after narcissistic abuse: 1. Denial: Initial Feeling That Something Is “Off” Many people don’t realize that they’re dealing with a narcissist or are victims of narcissistic abuse. Instead, their process of recovery begins with a nagging feeling that something is not right in the relationship.6 They might get a sense that they are being mistreated or just feel like something is wrong or bad in the relationship, especially after a conflict. They might have moments of clarity when they recognize that the narcissist’s behavior is unacceptable or even abusive, but often remain in denial by making excuses. For example, they might chalk it up to the person having a bad day, being under a lot of stress, or cite examples of times when the person has been loving or kind to them. Denial is common in the early stages of recovery from narcissistic abuse.3,5,6 2. Shock & Confusion: Suspicions of Abuse Begin to Surface Eventually, there may come a time when the abuse or narcissism is so bad that it is almost impossible for the person to remain in denial. The initial recognition that the person may be a narcissist or that they may be the victims of abuse is difficult to accept. It often comes with shock, confusion, and cognitive dissonance.3,4,5,7 Cognitive dissonance is the uncomfortable experience of knowing something is wrong or bad while also resisting acceptance. This can lead to an inner conflict where the person might go back and forth between blaming the narcissist and blaming themselves.4,7 This period can go on for a while, but usually ends in acceptance, marking the transition to the next stage. 3. Identification: Recognizing & Naming the Narcissistic Abuse Eventually, the back-and-forth settles into a final recognition that the person is a narcissistic abuser. This difficult insight might come after the person does research on narcissism or narcissistic abuse, or after they open up to someone else about the abuse.5 Acknowledging and naming the abuse is an important turning point because it makes it almost impossible to return to a state of denial. (((ABCD, YOU ARE HERE:))) Still, it is common for people to believe that the narcissist in their life can change, recover, and stop being abusive. They may even try to “save” the relationship by seeking counseling or encouraging the narcissist to do so. These efforts rarely succeed, and often leave the person with no other option than to move to the next stage of separation. 4. Separation: Distance & Separation From the Abuser Eventually, victims of narcissistic abuse realize that the narcissist in their life is either unwilling or unable to change, and that it is up to them to summon the strength to leave. This may begin as a “trial separation,” “break,” or just “taking space” from the abuser by limiting contact. This usually triggers a cycle of love bombing, narcissistic rage, and more abuse.1,6 (((ABCD, YOU ARE EXECUTING AN EMOTIONAL SEPARATION, MEANING, SAME EFFECT. HENCE THE LOVE-BOMBING.))) ((**Have you been limiting interaction, Jae? And has she tried majorly soft-soaping and sucking-up to you because of it?... He can't get full-blown ragey at you because of your dad's presence and proven wilingness to protect you (I presume?))) Eventually, it will become clear to the person that they need to cut ties and end the relationship with the narcissist. ((You can't yet, so this is about emotionally distancing yourself and limiting interaction to the barest minimum without appearing rude, e.g. you're working on a project online.)) This can be an ugly, painful experience, especially for those who had close relationships, shared assets, children, or other ties. In these cases, it’s common for the narcissist to become vengeful and cruel, sabotaging the person, leveraging legal or financial action, or finding other ways to enact revenge.4 (...(**It sound like you have been keeping your distance, because - you sound like you've just arrived here:)) 5. Complicated Grief: Emotional Turmoil Including Anger, Guilt, & Sadness (((ABCD: ...AND ALSO, HERE...AND A BIT OF 6. (the stages aren't always neatly in-order))))) After separation, it’s common for a person healing from narcissistic abuse to experience complicated grief or complex post-traumatic stress disorder (CPTSD).5,7 Unlike a “normal” process of mourning, complicated grief often involves a mix of emotions including anger, guilt, longing, and sadness. These conflicting feelings can make it difficult to really grieve the loss, accept that the relationship is over, and feel a sense of closure.7 These feelings might be further complicated by lasting fears about what the narcissist will do next in an attempt to hurt them.The best case scenario is often when the narcissist “discards” the person, going no-contact with them; but this also makes it hard to grieve and get closure. Because of their stunted emotional and social abilities, it’s almost impossible to have a healthy separation from a narcissist.6 6. Education: Finding Information & Support to Understand the Abuse ((NOTE)) For many people who recently cut ties or ended a relationship with an abusive narcissist, education is a key part of their recovery process. Learning more about narcissism and narcissistic abuse from self-help books, support groups, or articles online can help them make sense of their experiences.3,5 For many people, research connects them to other survivors who have had similar experiences with narcissistic abuse. This can be very validating, and can help people in recovery find support while also helping them understand and make sense of the abuse.3,4,5 This process can empower abuse survivors, while also helping them find closure and move towards the next stage of healing. 7. Recovery: Self-care & Healing the Wounds of Narcissistic Abuse The next stage in recovery after narcissistic abuse is finding skills, outlets, supports and self-care strategies that help them begin to heal the lasting wounds of abuse. In this stage, people learn ways to reconnect with their own feelings, wants, and needs. This often involves learning to love themselves and practice better self-care, putting themselves first.3,5 Narcissistic people tend to minimize, ignore, or violate the feelings, wants, and needs of other people, which can cause victims to disconnect from themselves. This stage of healing is all about rewiring these inner connections and learning to honor and validate their feelings and needs through self-care.3,4,5 ((You're in the process of re-wiring right now. These stages commonly can overlap chronologically or randomly.)) 8. Restoration: Reclaiming Independence & Rebuilding Their Life Narcissistic people are known for guilting and coercing others into devoting most of their time and energy into meeting their needs while neglecting their own.8 They also tend to be highly controlling, using abusive tactics to try to control what they do, how they behave, where they go, and who they see.1,2,4 Many people in romantic relationships with a narcissist have developed codependent patterns, and have devoted their lives to taking care of others while neglecting themselves.7 This is why it’s so important for a person in recovery from narcissistic abuse to work on rebuilding a life of their own design. This process involves rebuilding a meaningful life based on the things they want, need, and care about. For example, some people may decide to go back to school, change careers, or pursue their own passions and interests. For many, this stage also involves rebuilding a support system of people who are capable of having healthy, reciprocal relationships. This step is the key to moving beyond the abuse and towards a more hopeful, fulfilling, and meaningful life.3,5 9. Meaning-making: Finding Meaning In the Abuse & Getting Closure At this stage, most people feel like they’ve healed the emotional wounds. They no longer feel plagued by grief or find themselves struggling daily with the aftermath of the abuse. For some, getting to this point is enough, but others feel the need to go further. They often describe the next step in their healing process as finding meaning from the pain of their experiences.4,5 This doesn’t mean they’re glad that they were abused or grateful for the relationship with the narcissist. It just means that they acknowledge that there were ways in which this experience made them stronger or wiser, or served as a catalyst that has improved their quality of life. For example, many people describe that their recovery process led them to develop more insight, healthier boundaries, or even self-love.3 10. Paying it Forward: Finding Ways to Give Back or Help Others A final step in the process of moving from victim to survivor to thriver is finding ways to pay it forward by helping other victims or using their experience to make a positive impact. Some people who have overcome narcissistic abuse go on to start blogs, support groups, or other resources aimed at helping advocate for and empower other victims.3 Others find smaller and more personal ways to pay it forward. For example, they may teach their children about healthy boundaries and relationships, support a friend who is in an abusive relationship, or share their own experiences with others going through something similar. When it comes to how to move on after narcissistic abuse, these are ways of getting closure. ________________________________________________________________________________- ABCD - READ IT OVER AND OVER. IT'S CONSCIOUS YOU, TELLING INNER ANIMAL/WARRIOR YOU (which demands repetition) and how you get a definite reply (...dreams....or waking up with a relieved, Eureka type of feeling...clarity and a decision with a "aww, fckit, I'm just gonna do it and who cares what happens...I just know I can't live like this any more!" attitude. If you DON'T get that, then your inne2r warrior, as I say, has its own plans (probably because you - the FRONT doorman, is too much of a Gentleman on the outside (- mutineered by your inner ape who stands for far less than you, in order to remove you from the dangerous situation....like reports of the mother/father who suddenly, 'magically', can lift an entire car off her toddler. HOW? Answer: there are two of you doing the lifting and BOTH have their reserve tanks activated). Things are quite simple when you really think about them, aren't they. It's EMOTIONS that make everything feel so complicated. You're a catch. Even if you're not conventionally good-looking - you're very attractive. She's not. She should be stepping-up, aspiring to be LIKE you, not trying to reduce you to her (secret) level and, when you proffer a rescuing arm, trying to pull her into her permanent, muddy hole WITH her (WHICH IS WHAT THEY DO WHEN THEY DEEP-DOWN KNOW THEY CANNOT-CANNOT CHANGE!). SEE THIS (and - yawn! - reverse the genders). Over and over until you get it. It's the dance you're doing RIGHT NOW: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWZGAExj-es (Powerful stuff) Anyway. You're safe whatever. I've got ya. :) I'll TELL you if you need to panic or suffer the guilts, no worries.

Elastic Heart Lyrics: And another one bites the dust Oh, why can I not conquer love? And I might've thought that we were one Wanted to fight this war without weapons And I wanted it, and I wanted it bad But there were so many red flags Now another one bites the dust Yeah, let's be clear I'll trust no one You did not break me I'm still fighting for peace I've got thick skin and an elastic heart But your blade it might be too sharp (((NOTE))) I'm like a rubber band until you pull too hard I may snap and I move fast (((YOU CERTAINLY DO))) But you won't see me fall apart 'Cause I've got an elastic heart I've got an elastic heart Yeah, I've got an elastic heart And I will stay up through the night Let's be clear, won't close my eyes And I know that I can survive I'll walk through fire to save my life And I want it, I want my life so bad I'm doing everything I can Then another one bites the dust It's hard to lose a chosen one You did not break me I'm still fighting for peace I've got thick skin and an elastic heart But your blade it might be too sharp I'm like a rubber band until you pull too hard I may snap and I move fast But you won't see me fall apart 'Cause I've got an elastic heart (((ETC., ETC.))) 'Cause I've got an elastic heart I've got an elastic heart

Want to expand on this, briefly. (...yeah, right, haha) ""Honestly since I said what I said at the weekend I feel a whole lot better. I'm just still not sure if I can hold my promise to not change my mind, I'm seeing the changes but has time ran out now and it's too little too late." / "Yup."" The trouble IS...suddenly, they're behaving themselves...possibly even perfectly, like the person you first met and 'honeymooned' with. Obviously they're doing it by-rote (just saying/doing what they know you want to hear/see); you can sense it...plus the switch is too sudden, meaning, took no effort(!). And this gives you space and calm...whereupon this conclusion inevitably pops in: 'Yooooou b***ard.... All those traumatic arguments, all that shoddy and downright nasty, tortuous treatment, FOR BLOODY YEARS... and ALL ALONG, YOU COULD HAVE BEEN CONTROLLING YOURSELF LIKE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW, YOU F***ING FAKE! YOU'VE BEEN DOING IT DELIBERATELY!' You can't UN-see and UN-hear all their, for-too-long, crap, can you... like the wooden fence analogy. Nor their over-miraculous transformation. And that's when you go, 'RrrrrrrrIGHT!', as the gloves fall off, and either consciously JOIN your inner animal ('let's do it!') OR fail to struggle when you're mutineered (you feel like you're in a dream, is how you recognise it, and that you've been body-snatched...which you have). NEVER underestimate your survival instinct. It's the greatest drive of all. Eg. one can REALLY WANT to just top themselves, but JUST CAN'T. Exactly. Inner Animal, whence that instinct comes from, doesn't agree and knows it's not necessary. (I also call it, your Inner Wisdom. And Sia calls it, having an Elastic Heart.) (Quite brief?....yay - gold star for me for a change!)

Thanks again for the help. The payment has been made after a chat. She asked me if I saw her as the mother of my children and I said yes. Had a chat about the stuff we need to work on. That's £5k in total that has been paid and don't have to pay any till October. Just waiting to see what happens really and like you said on the last chance, or to see if it slips back to neglecting. Had a look at the Terms and conditions and if the wedding is canceled then people get 80% of the room money back. I asked her what if we don't make it and she reassured me to try and not be negative.but if it were to be cancelled then we would pay everyone extra 20% as it's not their fault. Everytime I wanna step away and promise myself I will I don't, then when I don't I regret not, but when I have the opportunity to I can't. I don't think my self esteem is very high. But I'm also hoping for the best like you said one last chance sort of thing.

I think you are right I'm 5 and 6 in the steps right now

I know my mate is going to be disappointed that I'm still in it after whinging to him, feel a bit disingenuous to everyone and myself but hopefully I'll get through that.

"So do you think I should continue with the engagement and give one last chance? Not for her benefit, but for yours - absolutely. As your baseline reason, I mean. OWN OXYGEN MASK ON *FIRST*. She might lose the plot in church and show her arse to E-VER-Y-ONE. No explanations would be needed then, would they. (Cheers for the mass demonstration, luv!). If it cures her - fantastic, who'd have thunk? Win with Bonus -v- Win but no Bonus....or not the one you thought you wanted, anyway ("You can't always get what you want, but you get what you NEED"). I think you need to go with your own flow...watch what your feet make you do. I mean, you didn't plan the "downing of tools" re picking the DJ, did you. It just happened (matey had the steering-wheel because Conscious You was distracted by the fact it didn't want to be there - plus trying to read the choices - so your inner ape seized his chance to make you blurt it all out. And that's why you felt better. Pairbonding happens on very ancient wiring. Conscious We never DO have any control, we just take credit. I mean, how do people think deaf and blind people experience attraction? Answer: chemistry...the code that your ancient animal is fluent in. "As I promised myself before Christmas that this was the last chance and been hoovered again." Yeah. So are even the psychiatrists, psychoanalysts, mental-health nurses, therapists who are fully-versed in these parasite-predators! So what is it makes you think YOU'RE so special? Hahaha. We don't fall for people with our intellect, do we. It's chemistry. It's intellectual but in an animal, split-second, code-reading way. The reasons we try to give people for why we fancy them ("and she loves playing chess, too!") rarely have a thing to do with it....just bonuses. ...Sniff...Phwooar....Now let's see if you're healthy and easy to get along with. This is my most personal mantra: "So they love me. But WHAT loves me?!". "The financial side of things, she has always earnt more than me an does pay more for anything she wants to do but I can't fully afford my half." Thought so. Financial Abuse (tick!) including Exploitation. Yes - define 'half' when the other person may earn twice as much. VERY typical of a Covert, Vulnerable or not. You'll definitely be better-off afterwards. You'll be surprised (dismayed) at how much it slowly dawns on you, how much she cost you, forced you to pay (or else Be Rude (oh noo)), encouraged you to pay ("Yeah, come on - let's eat-out - it's fine, we can go halves"). But, like you say - YOU don't WANT to eat-out; it's her! You'd rather spend your money on, say, ten-pin. Or just save it. Half, my arse. Yours is SUCH a common scenario. It's subtle and missable for the fact they're constantly keeping your mind over-busy. It's two-thirds you, one third her! But conning/brainwashing is done via 'sneaking incorrect terms in' and repetition ("Half...half-half-half!"). You just don't have TIME to notice and pick them up over every single little bloody thing - and there always IS something they're doing/failing to do that you're having to tend to or fend-off or defend yourself against..... uhf...so high-maintenance...exhausting. You get to the point where they've said something ELSE to put you on-guard and you think - Can't we just have ONE conversation where you don't try to push my buttons to start another bloody altercation!?...just ONE?!...for bloody ONCE?! (Answer: No.) You end up with LITERALLY no spare time for yourself! And it gets harder and harder, especially if you have REAL kids (whom they end up resenting and being jealous of, being one of the kids themselves). "I see what you mean about closure though it gives me the basis to say I gave all the chances I could." YES. "But I just keep getting this sinking stomach feeling whenever she mentions the wedding and payments." Yes. That's the price for getting everything instantly back that she beat out of you while also bursting her massive bubble of delusion as catalyses her running to a therapist and thereby getting herself a chance. It's Performance Anxiety. But like I say: you don't have any deadline now. So if on the day, you can't say no - we're onto annulling it. Simples! What matters is that you won't any longer be psychologically trapped for fearing leaving her would make you a nasty person. You KNOW you've warned her - and you have the evidence here to show anyone. You've done the right thing - given her a (nother!) chance (come onn - she's had loads).... so following-through with the tacit but glaring consequence (hers), by ending the relationship, is excuseable and becomes the ONLY RIGHT, SENSIBLE AND UNSELFISH thing to do. Were it me, I'd nutshell it with, 'I finally couldn't ignore the evidence that the woman didn't even LIKE me!'.

"The payment has been made after a chat. She asked me if I saw her as the mother of my children and I said yes. Had a chat about the stuff we need to work on." You said YES? Were you fibbing/fobbing? (Surely you'd at least want her to undergo therapy first?! She's not exactly a great Lover, is she. Kids are FAR more sensitive/bruisable than adults! Jeez...you need to read up on this part onwards.) "That's £5k in total that has been paid and don't have to pay any till October." Oh, PLENTY of time - brilliant! In fact, far too long to keep her enormous-and-always-gagging-to-burst-out arse contained. What may well happen is, she behaves with you but picks someone ELSE to act as her toxins-vomiting toilet, to help her keep said arse contained! After all, that's one of the things you were always intended to be for (they need to ensure they're 'out of vomit' before facing "their public", to ensure they don't do it in front of them (and BANG would go their image and reputation) (Malignant NPDs treat everyone else better than you, which is totally arse-about face). Can you think of someone she'd see as a likely candidate for stand-in 'whipping boy'? (Stay alert on that one, so you'll get wind of it.) "Just waiting to see what happens really and like you said on the last chance, or to see if it slips back to neglecting." THERE you go - you've got it. :) You're keeping your options open so as to find out for SURE-sure-sure (equals no regrets) if she's beyond help: (a) escape, (b) stay (if she proves she can 99& of the time behave herself like an adult (if they were forced to act PAST the point they usually do - it would 'take' and would then start to re-wire them back again...repetition forms HABIT, and with every subsequent reptition, it 'sinks' down to your inner animal's functioning level (now a kind of instinct)...and, when THINGS change, feelings change, and thinking, attitudes, beliefs...). The only question would be, have you got the patience. It does take them far longer to learn, even from experience, which is why they need a big consequence (big impact). If they can't even learn from punishment, however, then they're basically a zombie already. All sick inner animal (but like an ape, can mimic like a pro!) and no Conscious person on top (where all the VITALLY HUMAN-BEING/HUMAN-COOPERATIVE stuff comes from and, again, is why we still exist AND became so advanced compared to all othe mammals. Combining satisfying emotional considerations with objective ones, is the definition of genuinely intelligent. It means your internal Mr Spock and Captain Kirk (left/right brain hemispheres) are best buds whose agendas now align (negotiation and compromise))....so it's like you can do, one conclusion fits all scenarios whereby everyone and everything is satisfied, nothing left out. Spock's stupid without Kirk and Kirk definitely is foolish without Spock. Innit. But as a team - woah! Her little Kirk got crippled or killed. (OR DID IT. Experiment commenced). It'll be an highly educational experience for you, should raise your iQ by at least 15 points in that one hit (a Raising of Consciousness), raise your confidence INDELIBLY/IRREVERSIBLY....and the rest (I'd be here all day!)...OH, WAIT - yes...and better-looking plus sexier. Have you ever experienced astounding yourself? "Had a look at the Terms and conditions and if the wedding is canceled then people get 80% of the room money back." PRAISE DEE LAWD! "I asked her what if we don't make it and she reassured me to try and not be negative.but if it were to be cancelled then we would pay everyone extra 20% as it's not their fault." Sounds good (obviously was YOUR suggestion), but what's this "we" business? What - Halves again? (Careful now.She's tellign you what you want to hear, remember?...Love-Bombing. Little Miss Pleasant, Understanding & Reasonable is in the building and on the stage...UNDER YOUR SPOTLIGHT.) "Everytime I wanna step away and promise myself I will I don't, then when I don't I regret not, but when I have the opportunity to I can't. I don't think my self esteem is very high." Yes. I know. Read yourself again. You'll note you've basically TWICE said - every time I decide to, I can't (so I don't). It's not the right opportunity, then, is it. Listen (Ah weel say ziss onlee wance): I'VE DONE THIS. Alright? (tsk...drag it out of me, why doncha). But my overriding reason, looking back, is because, ultimately, he was just too damned fascinating, too rich in those ELUSIVE little weirdnesses that no language can really ever explain. Too tempting an opportunity. By which I obviously mean, KEEPING/FAILING TO DUMP, not choosing (no-one chooses a Narc). You need TIME to become certain 100% and not risk hanging an innocent as well as actually discovering something new and scientifically useful. And the more conscientious you are, the surer you have to be. ALL victims get speared by the Morbid Fascination hook! They make excuses, but, that's what it is, really, underneath it all. We humans only got where we are today BECAUSE we're INCREDIBLY CURIOUS. And it explains everything and everyone from your past (especially your teachers). And you can eventually spot one from ten paces. ...All that's left to go on is the cape! And the more intelligent and curious you are, the harder it is to walk away from such a ground-shaking, very RARE experience. You might even discern something that no-one else before has ever spotted! You could even write a book about it all! "But I'm also hoping for the best like you said one last chance sort of thing." EXACTLY. The common wisdom is that it's a waste of time ("people have already tried that and it doesn't work") so don't even bother, just dump. But the only way to KNOW if something can't be done or not, is to change the Doer or type of Doer and see if the result is the same as all that went before OR whether that slight change to a (rare) partner who has the correct elements, achieved different results. In this instance (which is heavy on Alchemy) it wouldn't be true to say something's 'impossible' until EVERY individual partner on the planet's tried it. ...in which case, 'you may as well - while yer down there, anyway?' (keeping your conscience too clean for post-dump guilt). So, really, it's as equally you giving YOU a last chance. Seriously...TECHNICALLY - the shock would be tantamount to getting shoved out of a plane without a parachute but then landing on a mountain of feathers. Near Death Experience ("Narc Petit Mort"). They've snapped people out of a lot of things (e.g. surviving cancer)...changed life attitudes and religions... (hence The Dunking Chair (before it got abused)). Well, they either come out of it changed for the better, or for the worse. But you get to see the real them, and no arguing. You've just never handed-over to your inner human psychopath before, that's the trouble. You don't have the experience of him to know to have total faith in him. Well... like I say, he seems to be doing fine already. Because REALLY THINK ABOUT IT: You, a person, is trying to make something you already know how to make: a decision. But no matter how you try - you just can't. Never mind WHAT you're trying. Just the fact that...you seem not to be in control of yourself - and to a huge degree whereby someone as stubborn as you can't exert sufficiently to wrest back control. And yet these failures have an intelligent and clear path and clear outcome to them. How does THAT work? Hey! Maybe you come from a long line of no-nonsense therapists and, before them, wise people of the woods (therapists)??? It doesn't MATTER what I say, anyway. Us SAYING hasn't worked. Logically, therefore, NOT saying is the thing that WILL. FYI, you're mutineered already. It's actually - you're not THE ONE in control of yourself/where you're headed. HE is. And he won't let ya...not by hook or by crook. He knows better in this situation than you. And your Super-Ego has since sided with him, after the pair having held heavy negotiation talks over whether to do it cruelly or in a cruel-to-be-kind way, and ditto for what end aim. It's clever isn't it. Not exactly perceptible, though. It's AFTER the whole event (once your ape has ensured you're 100% safe) that you 'review the tapes' and (taking credit haha) go, 'WTF? That was me! What was I thinking?! But wow! Talk about genuis planning and executing! F*CK, I'm clever?!) What shall we call him? You'll want do that because, if you google something like "Super-Nova Empath versus Narcissist", you'll see that what earns you that title is not the 'taking them on and winning' bit, but the fact that you had the EXTRA balls to *NOT* all embarrassedly and shamefully stuff him back in the basement. He becomes your ever-present bodyguard and best friend, you see. HE then sniffs them out at 10 paces AND IMMEDIATELY TELLS YOU by "giving you that feeling" you now so recognise. And REGARDLESS - any narc that comes near you is going to smell your scarier (healthiier = bigger, fitter, more cunning) animal and give YOU a wide berth! Trust me on that. You'll appreciate what a wasted resource he's been all these years and how INCOMPLETE you unwittingly had been. It's no good being nice without the capability to be scary - BOTH genders and ALL persuasions! - because the nicer and more giving you are, the more you attract Narcs (GIANT TAKERS!). Sorry if I'm bending your mind but - is this making sense to you? But, basically, "Nice little boys/girls don't hit!". FAAACK ORRRFF. Nice? NICE? Who's got time to be NICE when a sodding feral predator's coming at you! Who SAID you have to be nothing BUT nice?! What - the same bunch that insisted the world was flat? (Yeah. It's called leaving the masses useless for standing-up for themselves enough to save their own lives/sanities!) So - comme ci, comme ca! No losing now. But understandably, you're going to be nervous. Even that's good, though. Nerves sharpen and heighten your performance by MILES - which is why Cowell doesn't take on contestants that are overly confident *already* (or else, even after the portion that's knocked off deliberately, they'll still have enough left NOT to have the aid of that all-important nervous energy). You need distractions. Do they work on you/Can you backburn?

PS: "I know my mate is going to be disappointed that I'm still in it after whinging to him, feel a bit disingenuous to everyone and myself but hopefully I'll get through that." Well, then - show him the relevant 'pages' from this thread! Easy-peasy Lemon-brain squeezy (and expandy). Here, I'll do it for you! ***Oy - Bro - WhatEverYerFace! I know you mean well, but - go get yerself an education before you go judging as if you do! ;p) 50p please :)

Anyway. How do you know he'll be disappointed? For all YOU know, you're going to either find yourself saying a (quiet - to the vicar) "I can't" and be immediately led, the pair of you, into the vestry, OR, you'll try to say "I Will" and it just won't come out, except for, "Er...Er......Er.....".

"Be who you are and say how you feel because those that mind don't matter and those that matter don't mind" (Dr Seuss) PS: Just TELL him - "I managed to lay down the law and get concrete promises on pain of HAVING HER ARSE FIRED". PPS: She's basically Duckface, isn't she. Course. That's what Duckface was.

Oh and PS: No, you don't have low self-esteem. Think about it. People in your position who didn't know their worth and that they therefore deserved, as well as owed it to themselves and their unborn offspring, to wait faithfully, patiently, for Better...those people wouldn't see a NEED to (what now?) COMPLAIN ABOUT THE 'BAD SERVICE' because they wouldn't feel short-changed. They're the brigade that, for example, go, 'Yeah, weeell, that's just men/women for ya...awww, s/he's a good man/woman REALLY...gotta take the rough with the smooth...and anyway, I'm not exactly perfect, either, so I can't talk!' (which it turns out, means, I don't always get the washing-up done by 10pm latest like s/he prefers (commands)). (Define 'rough'. What - razor-blade rough?...like Shark skin? Figures.)

Hey ABCD, How's things? She still behaving? And what did your friend say when you told him?

Hi. Thanks for checking in. Everything seems to be ok at the moment, she has actually started doing all the things I mentioned and trying. She's picked up a hobby of painting which I've been going on about for years to pick something up. We are going on holiday in May and have a few family things coming up so they should all go through ok. I feel a bit more relaxed. But still feel a bit distant and emotionally removed a lot of the time. Thank you

Hey-hey, soz for the lag! "Everything seems to be ok at the moment, she has actually started doing all the things I mentioned and trying. She's picked up a hobby of painting which I've been going on about for years to pick something up." Crikey, she really IS determined to get married, isn't she. Keep an eye on her because once your 'novelty' of checking wears off, they tend to drop it again, providing various lame excuses. It's something I've noticed with N-Spaths; they don't have interests, bar people (hosts). They don't even read books. Haven't got the staying power and even if they did, books are mainly all about imagining being in someone else's shoes...which NSs can't do...because that takes Empathy thus giving a shite about ANYONE other than themselves and their business (so can't be arsed). Let's see if she proves me wrong. Maybe she's intending to drop the facade again after you're married... And while I'm 'down here': how long after moving-in together was it, before she dropped the painting (and whatever else - pls mention). "We are going on holiday in May and have a few family things coming up so they should all go through ok." Fingers Crossed. Where are you going - what sort of holiday is it? Beach-worshipping, activity-based, cultural touring...? Who chose the destination and who agreed? "I feel a bit more relaxed." YES. Because you've realised you're safe and have all the power (contrary to what she and her smoke & mirrors shennanigans try to convince you), "But still feel a bit distant and emotionally removed a lot of the time." Yes. "I'm afraid" your shutters are coming down a little. That's where you are in the process. But is the experiment proving really engaging and interesting - or even fascinating? Are you secretly keeping notes? "Thank you" You're very welcome, mushtie. You're such a gentleman. :) HOWEVER... as aforementioned, you do have to keep acknowledging the reality in terms of meaning in the bottom-line distinguisher still here present, which is: No healthy-minded, fully working model - be they man OR woman - would be prepared to walk down the aisle with a man whom ALREADY, IN THE RUN-UP has confessed that he isn't sure, therefore doesn't feel ready, and done so (when you look at your ACTIONS, including, that she noticed you weren't acting excited or that interested (IN YOUR OWN WEDDING). She's not just prepared, still. She's gagging. And she hasn't managed to convince you that she genuinely loves you...so that's not her reason. I think it's her chosen next 'job'. Gagging to get married to a man whom, she is well aware (which state of affairs is thanks to her, but let's ignore that bit) isn't even sure he loves her enough to marry her. Gagging to marry a man who clearly doesn't feel the same. "I couldn't continue the engagement and marriage preparations because I could tell he wasn't interested and, worse, was acting more like he had a date with the guillotine". You're not into IT You're not into her. But she's still obsessed with doing it. So obsessed, she's re-taken up a hobby - JUST "LIKE THAT!" - pretty instantly - proving she could have been doing that any time. THE PAINTING IS A PROP, is my suspicion. Narcs are genuii with words; WORDS are their props. But NSpaths, less so (can't be arsed when there are props to be had, hence); they need actual, props. (Hobbies/interests, fake X-rays, fake ID...put it this way: mine made jewellery (like I used to, funny that). Didn't make a single bloody thing from the minute he moved in. See "Fangtall's" thread and you'll see his father using his artistic bent ONLY as a fake front, and dropping it once it's worked. She doesn't MIND painting, is the truth. And we know that because she's doing what a female NSpath DOES when their parter-for-life-to-be has huge reservations: ignores that huge red flag and carries on dragging him to the alter. She's NOT WORRIED about her own feelings, including emotional health, potential trauma, all of that.... That's why a Normal would have run, long before now. Those things that NTs wish to protect, don't apply here. Because (1) merely, she's crow-bar-ing herself a however-long job, and (2) she's nothing like Normal. Because SHE KNOWS...she's A PREDATOR. Predators aren't at all concerned for their own safety and welfare when up against their prey. So keep your eye on this: Until SHE says she's not brave enough to proceed with the nuptuals, knowing your heart isn't in it, to the point you're dreading it, to the point it was giving you anxiety.... until she says that - she's an NSpath and it's already over. BUT... we know that. Well, you don't - not 100%. And you need to be sure - hence this 'last chance'. Plus you've got a live one AND the power of mind to be playing psychological field researcher. :) But THAT would be the proof that she's normal and healthy enough to even have a relationship with, let alone commit to that relationship for the rest of your life until you're dying day. Because it's what the marriageable type DO. You would, wouldn't you. So would I. So would ANYONE with a modicum of self-respect and for whom self-respect were "a thing". Let's keep watching her space. And please do share about any things that have dawned on you or that you've freshly noticed have been going on, either above or under your radar? Any of those tiny signs of selfishness, like, reaching for the last biscuit without asking you if you mind...ASKING to borrow something of yours...those sorts of considerate, loving touches. Anything at all? I mean, she's taken up painting, sure. But that's an activity. So what about the log-able details of how differently or not she's been behaving towards you and treating you?

Hola! Anything to report? What's the latest?

Hi, nothing to report yet, on holiday still but will update when I'm back home.

Coolio Iglesias! I'll continue bumping you up, then. :)

Hi I'm still here, haven't fallen off the edge of a cliff. Bar one childish outburst (to which I did not respond)(( as in just did not care🤣)) We've been ok for a good amount of time. Thinking about it actually I didn't nibble when she acted like a child in Sri Lanka, just got on with what I wanted to do and she hated it. But other than that she's been good. To be perfectly candid I don't ok now why I have jumped back pm here tonight other than I've had few beers(as night in to myself and I enjoy it🤣) nothing Mad though. But part of me is bored with no company and the other bit is like should I be dwelling over history. (Though without the acknowledgement of history there is no pattern?) Over started back at rugby and really focusing on my health and training (want to get into the first team🤣), and come off of anti depressants (sertraline) as I felt I was feeling nothing, good or bad, (e.g. an almost traffic collision, or mistake at work work) What do you think? As half of me feels over forgiving and the other half says enough is enough.

Heya! Had internet probs, lately (still ongoing...hasn't been loading longer threads, whereby there's been no 'End' to 'Jump To'; yours is the first it's let me in ages! I'll try to keep it brief (not read yet) or, failing that (knowing me and my verbal diaorrhea), will break it up into bite-sized morsels. Let's see if this Submits successfully first....

('Only' took 10 whole pigging minutes..jeez...) "Hi I'm still here, haven't fallen off the edge of a cliff." S'fine if you're attached to a hangGlider, parachute or bungee rope. (As you can see, there was no rush anyway, thanks to - god knows? ...sudden influx of tourists from abroad and Madrid? Can the internet be overloaded like that, do you know? The Satellite TV was acting up as well, could only get a third of the usual channels. Curiouser and curiouer...). Rightyho...orff we go... "Bar one childish outburst (to which I did not respond)(( as in just did not care🤣)) We've been ok for a good amount of time." 1. Bar one. Probably more like, bar one that GOT OUT. 2. Did not respond: Gold Stars! 3. Did not care: More Stars! 4. Let's keep seeing... When did the 'one' outburst happen and what caused it according to her? How loud was it out of 10? How aggressivve..? How long did it last and was it only in 'one sitting'? (Ohh, you're sssuch a clam, tsk! haha) "Thinking about it actually I didn't nibble when she acted like a child in Sri Lanka," So that's two outbursts? Or was the 'one' on-holiday? (ref spoils special occasions). How many days in, out of how many total, was it? (PS: Who the heck would feel stessy in Sri Lanka???) ...It is the Twice, isn't it. How far apart was each? And how was Sri Lanka? Are the beaches as stunning as the tourist and film-location scenes? "just got on with what I wanted to do and she hated it." *huge and slightly naughty yet victorious (vicariously) grin right at you* (I say! Isn't everybody suddenly getting so much stronger, lately. Have you noticed?) "But other than that she's been good." Sounds like we're discussing a new puppy, hahahaha. Here - if not, take her back to the Shelter. HAHAHAHAHA (ignore me - I'm ecastatic to have internet back) ('Touch wood!!'. "To be perfectly candid" Good! :) Ah larks that, Ah duz. S'faster. "I don't ok now why ((know?)) I have jumped back pm here tonight other than I've had few beers(as night in to myself and I enjoy it🤣) nothing Mad though." No, nothing mad or we'll have to call the Pooper Police on ya. Shall I have a wee doobie to match you? (My doobies are very wee, tho...get laughed at by real stoners at the club (every single ucking time, yawn).) "But part of me is bored with no company and the other bit is like should I be dwelling over history." Yes. Until it actually becomes History. Assuming my internet troubles are over - post on here more often if you like? Sounds like YOU need a club. I know it's a cliche, but that's because they work. I was there only one week before I made a friend...and it continued from there. What's your fave hobby? What have you always wanted to try? ......Falling off a cliff (safely)?? Why the heck not?! "(Though without the acknowledgement of history there is no pattern?)" OH! Haha, shoulda reada head - you're ahead of me, haha. You SOUND good, anyway. Maybe this is just the urge itch, now that you've got her under control (or maybe I should say, 'while'), and you haven't quite revved your engine enough so are 'grabbing' for the nearest solution (time with her). MIND YOU...SAYING that - the more time you spend with her pre-nuptually, the more increasingly and faster her arse will start to spill out again. And then you have your perfect ammo for her getting PROPER therapry on pain of stopping the engagement? Have a thinkipoos with your dwinkiepoos...? "Over started back at rugby" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Too funny.... I was JUST ABOUT TO SAY, how about Rugby (haha, course I wasn't). You're literally one sentance ahead of me this whole post. Too funny. No communal baths after, though...you don't wanna get all confused - I know what you Rugby-players are like (*ducks retaliatory tackle*). "and really focusing on my health" More Gold Stars! "and training (want to get into the first team🤣)," Oooooh!....IT'S ALIVE! :D "and come off of anti depressants (sertraline) as I felt I was feeling nothing, good or bad, (e.g. an almost traffic collision, or mistake at work work)" Oh, wow! You really ARE bouncing back, aren't you! How are you without? You didn't just STOP, did you? You know you have to wean-off? "What do you think?" I think I'm impressed. :)))))))) "As half of me feels over forgiving and the other half says enough is enough." Await the inevitable arse-avalanche. It'll come. Make like you've really relaxed. Fail to notice a few things/misdemeanours - see what happens... Then report back to base (haha). Yep. Impressed. You're on the right track. Give it more time and - arse-spillage or 'wake up one morning, realising you've gone off her'. How's the resentment - by which I mean, at the fact she could have been behaving as well(ish) as this all along? ...or have I just snipped a bit of umbilicus by asking that? (Ooopth, haha.) Seriously, brill to hear from you...your ears must have been burning. Roger - Over? (Now crossing fingers that this isn't too long to post....meeeeh.....wish me luck!)

Hi, I'm trying not to resent though. I'm still trying to make this work. She has had stomach cramping for weeks now and took 2 pregnancy test one inconclusive and one negative, so think it is just a medical thing. Had a couple of little bickers but she calls me out for speaking to her bluntly and with a tone. She sees a lot of what I say as an attack that isn't there. I am regressing back into my old ways and just doing things to avoid arguing. But I keep wanting to just stop doing anything. I don't really have emotion about it anymore until it comes to anxiety about both leaving and the wedding. What if she is pregnant? What do I do?

As to what you would DO: Paternity Test. (Caiyn't do one-a thowse if yuhr ain't preg-naant tuh begin with, noww, cayan ya...shuure can't, boah!)

Oh round objects! My first post (that was a PS) didn't publish! That above was merely my PS! Ugh.... Basically... It's the Original Old Chestnut - pretending to be pregnant or Whoops-getting herself pregnant. Swat (female) NSpaths Do. (I know the latest test was Negative but bear with me)... Too many, do this or try it on. To them, kids are Leverage and a Shield and a Pawn....whom, eventually, they can't wait to be rid of. And they HATE being preggers because it lowers their market value thus capture rate if/once you inevitably split up (mummy tummy, weight gain, etc.). But they will if they're desperate. (I did SAY she's gagging - right?) They see it as a giant hook into you (so you can't leave them, no matter how much worse they get). HOWEVER!... in this precise context, given the facts and everything, including how badly she for too long treated you (and is purely suppressing), and, that she KNOWS you have reservations already (so how effing 11th-hr convenient for her would it be!), here is what a straight-thinking, self-respectful, dignified blokie (i.e. non-hassled--bullied) would do: They would insist on a Pregnancy Test 'in front of them' or going for confirmation or a confirmatory pregnancy test at her GPs, and, then a Paternity Test. (If she doesn't like that, she shoulda thoughta that before spooking you too-far...how dya like THEM boomeranging apples, Narcipoos?.) Failing that: The genuine, truthful woman would-should expect and want you to accompany her to the first 11-week scan (where a viable foetus is identified etc.). But I obvs don't believe she is, so... But it would be a great insurance policy for her (she (cuckoo!) thinks) so... _______________________________ ...SHE'S IN TESTING-YOU MODE... _______________________________ to see whether such a giant risk (to her) would WORK as said Amen-hook. (They always do some or other little trial-run.) So this time/at this testing point, she's NOT...and/but she's muddying the water (two outcomes for one action) by letting you suspect there could - as an alternative Pity Ploy and equally long-con Hook - be an underlying medical problem. I mean - you can't abandon her either or-real or in-effect, if she's ILL, now, can you! (Sniff...yeah, you can...You CAN if her being ill isn't your reason, but what preceeded it....and she shoulda thoughta that before she (insert the rest). IF she was pregnant, AND it were proven yours, you WOULD be a "divorced" dad, tho. But this is all conjecture so... ___________________ Here's what YOU do: ___________________ 1. You rightfully instate a rightful rule: No more sex until after the marriage. Separate beds or bedtimes if poss. One, if she has Endometriosis or something more serious or ANYTHING as yet undiagnosed, you don't want to make things worse (and if she insists, you go all horrified and say: HHHHHH...YOU'RE ASKING ME NOT TO PROTECT YOU! I CAN'T DO THAT!? NO WAY - TOPIC CLOSED'. And, two, she herself knows full well a pregnancy would be unwelcome and downright inappropriate at this juncture so - even that she COULD be, demands that you lay down that rule. If she doesn't like it she can leave you, prove you right, and alleviate you - all in one go. 2. For emergency weak moments: the best condoms you can buy AND KEEP THEM WHERE SHE CAN'T FIND THEM. (She understands, surely?...like anyone would over a bloke/couple in your situation? (tell her)) 3. If you slip-up and forget the condom, it's separate bedrooms so that sex has to be kind-of by-appointment and you've time to think before ABC Junior takes over. Plan, Stan?

As to these bits: "I'm trying not to resent though." Not possible. Not in your control. It's in - guess who's. Clue: he's still very hairy. "I'm still trying to make this work." Which 'this'? "Had a couple of little bickers but she calls me out for speaking to her bluntly and with a tone. She sees a lot of what I say as an attack that isn't there." Uh-huh. Swat Narx Do. It comes under Stealing the victim cloak. A form of censorship. They also go 'stop shouting!' any time you sound firm (NOT loud) (my reply is: best you turn your hearing-aid down, luv, you've obviously got me on Amplified). What they MEAN is, 'shut-up (being right...arguing with me (standing-up for yourself) rather than knowing your place...)'. In your position, with a flat, quiet, monotone voice, I'd do this: "Wasn't blunt and there was no tone....Wasn't blunt and there was no tone....Wasn't blunt and (etc.)". Over them. Or just leave the room, firmly, quietly saying, 'We'll talk tomorrow when you're prepared to DISCUSS - and like an ADULT - rather than a child of (whatever age they're behaving). Just walk away or keep pelting them with the truth (but you do NOT address the 'other, next' accusation they jump to until they have conceded you were not blunt nor used any tone, deliberately or otherwise. Or I'd say - "I AM blunt! Haven't you been paying attention over these last x years?...WTF?!....Yoou don't even KNOW me!!!...HOW COME?!..." (watch them squirm as you turn the tables, and - because you keep saying HOW COME?! - do a flounce-off (haaah...peace at last...they wanted tone? - THEY GOTTIT, with Fries on the side...up their nostrils)). "I am regressing back into my old ways and just doing things to avoid arguing." EXCELLENT! Your brain has recognised that this hostess carries and elicits Futility. NOTHING you do will actually WORK...affect enough for a while, yes - work, no. So as that trainline and train is out-of-order, it remove the power and signalling to that line (geddit?). This is, being mutineered (the first part anyway) by your secret twin, Mr Hairychops. (Still Normal, still On-Track - no wozzies.) "But I keep wanting to just stop doing anything." Still Cognitive Dissonance but THAT signal's being muffled, now, too. That's FINE...You're "feeding the monster" (mine, not on Goog yet I don't think). It'll just make her too fat so no longer will she be able to keep containing her arse. THERE IS NO PROBLEM HERE. This might even just be your test-run Escape for all we know. We DON'T know. Only Hairy knows. But we have a piss-simple Plan at the ready, anyway, remember? The alternative is to remedy it by making as many decisions in your daily life as you possibly, possibly can, no matter how trivial (strawberry or blackcurrant/this film, that film...)....to oil that stuck lever and cogs until making The Decision is easier or even surprises you for being a damp squib! ____________________________ Do you want to take a remedial action?... or just play compliant/back-to-normal/feed the monster and wait? PLEASE ANSWER THIS AS WELL AS THE SERIOUS QUESTIONS YOU'VE AVOIDED/NEVER ADDRESSED, OR (personal policy) I'LL BE FORCED TO DOWN TOOLS. I'll explain after you do or don't but I insist now - okay? I need to see you take that leap of faith. And more to the point, so do you. And now, not later on. ____________________________ Anyway...If you STAYED in this 'relationship' permanently and kept that up while NOT knowing what's really going on/up with her, you'd end up a henpecked zombie with a problem kid. That's the worst case scenario and you are not even ON that train-track or that line. ""I don't really have emotion about it anymore" EXCELLENT. "until it comes to anxiety about both leaving and the wedding." Anxiety about making "The" Decision, yes? PS - QUESTION: did you order Too Good/Too Bad yet? If not - why not?

Important PS: Why isn't she on birth-control?

PS: everyone start saying 'no wozzies' - let's see how long it takes to take-off and then enter mainstream media. :)

PPS: Two week's cramps... pff... ((YEAH, IT'S CALLED A PARTICULARLY HEAVY PERIOD, LUV!)) ((Or just faking it.))

...said at her, obvs. Don't want you to think I'm using a funny tone with you or nuffin (hahaha- ignore me - Black Humour...but the steam build-up's gotta come out somewhere...LOL)

Forgot to say, though. ADDED to the 'switching-off of the signals' - I imagine the rugby training is helping a lot, as well. DO MORE. If you do enough, you won't feel like having sex! (Same energy pot.) Here - do what Forrest-On-Sea does in that other film...what was it?...not Shipwrecked...ach...it'll come to me... Before practise starts, paint her "stick-face" on the ball and give it a damn good kicking! You think I'm joking? NOPE. If you can't manage that - just draw her Bad Side so that you don't feel guilty about her "Good" Side. I painted a Smiley, fanged face on a tennis ball when I was a late teen. It ended up stuck in the wire mesh, haha!!! Exactly where that "particuliar" (-mine - spread it around!) face belonged: behind bars. IT WORKS. To empty your steam bucket so that you don't explode when you don't want to. It's downright re-empowering (SHE ain't gonna give you that sense back, so here's how you 'cheat' it back). How's the Rugga going, anyway? Got any good Rugby jokes for me? Haven't heard one in YEARS!

PPPS: Tell me if you genuinely are just too damned busy to collect up the questions and I'll do it for you. I'm a Fairy and my name's Nuff. (Fairy Nuff?)

Last PS (I think?) - Actually, truth is - I'd do this: "Wasn't blunt and there was no tone....Wasn't blunt and there was no tone....Wasn't blunt and (etc.)". SUNG to whichever rhythm-matching tune. Try the tune to "Jimmy cracked corn, and I don't care". This one's my fave when they're trying to make me play Butler (which I know because they don't say Please nor use a please-would-you tone, it's more like a laid-back, Get me another beer, babe? (Who made YOU a Redneck all-of-a-sudden!) To the tune of No Limits by that woman and bloke duo/group in the metallic jumpsuits or whatever (oh ffs...here we go again...) (TOO HOT!)...late 1990s it was: "No No, NO-no, No No, NO-no, No No, No-no-THERE'S A LI-MIT!" ....replete with a little electropop dance and a giant mischievious (note all - pronounced MISS-chiv-ous, not 'mis-CHEEV-ous'...just thought I'd slip that Engrish lesson in). It's not in their script so it shuts THEM up. Or makes them flounce home or upstairs (yayyyy, Telly all to myself!!!). OR...they can't think fast enough so they pretend they too think it's funny and laugh (and then try to 'get you back for that!' another day). OR...they go mental (out-of-kilter/abnormal, OTT reaction where a Normal would just Tut and leave it or wait another time and ask for a proper, refined, sit-down chat if there really were a problem)...albeit, in actual fact, with a Normal there wouldn't BE ANY NEED TO!, but anyway ....they go mental, AND THEN YOU'VE GOTTEM! ('Yep - definitely need a psychiatrist - I ain't marrying YOOOOU?!) But then - as I have to be there for longer than I'd like or have to be there to do said experimenting - I'm a prodder-poker (-back). Because TOO MANY TIMES they shove their arse in and TOO MANY TIMES it's lasted only 2 weeks or 2 months and then before you know it, you're back to La-La Land Square One again - arse all over the shop - and you think 'How did THAT happen and WHEN did it happen?! (they are sooooo slow-mo and slippery their re-decline is almost imperceptible, that's how...plus they sloooowly stretch the brief). Some 'relationships' of mine were genuine on my part, some (once I realised) were just switched to being my lab rat, some BEGAN as my lab-rat, such as the incredibly arrogant, self-important, self-fancying (all without-basis!) bloke on the train who was trying to chat me up whilst I gave cynical resonses ("I'm a this/that-impressive" / "WHAT A COINCIDENCE!...NEITHER AM I!") until he said in front of the other passengers (that *I* had been chatting to when he butted in), 'I'm gonna get you going out with me by the time your stop comes - you watch'. So I gave him what he wanted. CHEERS, RATTY-I MEAN, DAVE! You're NOT powerless. I'm proof that you're not powerless. If you were powerless, they wouldn't be trying to brainuck and enslave you to begin with - remember? Plus they do to you what was done to them, ERGO...we know where it hurts them too...but victims/targets are too busy trying to de-spaghettify their brains to have that occur to them. My See-Saw analogy (or part of it - re power-stealing/cheating): Picture it. You and spoilt brat get onto the See-Saw in the amusement playground. Up, down, up, down...but suddenly, s/he's using their muscles and posture (leaning forwards) to KEEP you there. They now have all the perks of the ride (the view, breeze...) whilst you're stuck in an uncomfy position with no view. Picture it... you in one movement get OFF your seat and walk away. WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-BANG-CRASH! What do you imagine that would do to a person's Coxic? Or even if they notice in-time and try to jump off beforehand. Still going to be injured whatever. Or you could just get HALF off ...and watch them panic. Point is - you have ALL the power and that's because although NSpaths insist on getting it, they don't even know what power LOOKS like!...let alone the responsibility that it carries with it. Never forget that. NOW YOU KNOW WHY THEY KID YOU INTO BELIEVING THAT THEY HAVE POWER OVER YOU (including that they can take you or leave you) when the opposite (Opposites Land) is true. As you know - I COULD go on (andonandon). YOU HAVE ALL THE POWER. But be careful in future about who you get on a see-saw with. Especially if your seat's secretly been covered in Superglue as takes a lot of wriggling (or leaving your trousers behind) to get out of before you can throw yourself off (oh nooo - a whole 10cm fall - aieeee-OH...hahahahah). Night!

Thanks for the book recommendation too good too bad, I listened to it today whilst at work. A lot of it is what I've been thinking, and I am very ambivalent about the relationship. It also highlighted a lot of stuff that I do like bringing up the past and I can't let go of the pain and confusion that has happened in the past. I have started documenting how I feel and why, when we argue/ I'm made to feel a certain way. It's her birthday in a few weeks and after that it'll be October when more money has to be paid to this wedding. I'm gonna listen to the book again tomorrow as there was a lot in there.

We've also got a buy to let mortgage on the flat and will be moving in with my folks in a few weeks. She wants to look straight away at a house but I want to give it a few months.

Good - well done for buying it! Taking actions frees you up. How did ordering it, finally, feel? Less like you're helpless? "It also highlighted a lot of stuff that I do like bringing up the past and I can't let go of the pain and confusion that has happened in the past." NO-no-no-no-no....it's only filed as Past Crap when the incident has been discussed to point of RESOLVED, which automatically means, never repeated. That's what Myra means. With a Narc - you never get resolution/incident closure and making-it-up-to-you, and you always get repition (but with the (salmonella-ridden) meat, potatoes, peas and gravy shuffled around the plate to look different), so it can't be categorised and filed away as The Past ("Out-tray", ready for filing), it's Still Ongoing ("Pending"). "I have started documenting how I feel and why, when we argue/ I'm made to feel a certain way." You'd best let me give that the once-over too, Mr Over-Socialised-Socially-Over-Responsible-Insistent-Blame-Takerton The Nth. You can handle things being your fault, can't you. It's thinking you're the Captain of your own ship (nope) at all times (nope), that you can't reconcile with the mess this 'cuh-rrreature' has got you into. "It's her birthday in a few weeks and after that it'll be October when more money has to be paid to this wedding." Yeah, I was just thinking that yesterday and today. (Your ears must have been burning). How much money? Idea: "Honey-bunny-boo-boo....I know how important the big day is to you so, as we've spent so much, leaving me brassic, I'm guessing you'd rather have a token birthday present for now with the real one later in the year so that I've got enough for the next payment in October - yes?" Counter-Covert Take With One Hand Whilst (Deciding Whether To Go Through With) Giving With The Other. Buying more time and avoiding big expenses. "I'm gonna listen to the book again tomorrow as there was a lot in there." Oh GOD YES? Read it over and over until it sinks down to the farthest level of your psyche as poss (for your inner ape - he's, I've worked-out, a good 10-15 floors down from your office floor). It's like this: You can get a bum dial going onto your voicemail, where all background noises and voices are just a jumbled mess. But you play it over and over, 20 times or more, and suddenly - CLICK! Sounds clear as day, including all the dialogue! You can speed up the re-reading/playing by, second time, going over everything with specifically-coloured highlighter pens (e.g. Green is Tick, Red is Cross, Orange is Don't Know Yet/Not sure) and Blue is Need To Check with Best Mate or Soulmate. "I'm gonna listen to the book again tomorrow as there was a lot in there." Probably more like, SHE's in there a lot. But you're not quite as sure-sure-sure as you'd like. Take your time - I'm snowed under. But not too much (tick-tock). _______________________________________________________________ "We've also got a buy to let mortgage on the flat and will be moving in with my folks in a few weeks. She wants to look straight away at a house but I want to give it a few months." Hahaha. HAHAHAHAHA. MMMMWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HAAAAAAH! Okay - NOW you're Counter-Narc-ing like a pro! Yeah. On *YOUR* territory, with *YOUR* frontline troops around you! No wonder she'd 'rather' move into a new house asap. That'll be The End for-sure!....no WAY can she hold her arse in that tightly/completely for that protrated a period! And no wonder you want to give it a few months. Gimmie a Cold War Spy-style High Five! :D Yeah, it's all helping already....coming together nicely. (If only you knew you have nothing to worry about.) So do tell how you got her to shut-up and cede defeat over THAT plan, then? This I simply must hear! Warning: she'll start surfing on RightMove etc. and going, 'Look at this one - let's see it before it goes'. Go - Mmm, yes!...I CAN see it...Very nice... If it's still for-sale by X, then we'll know it's in the pot as one of the Meant-To-Bes...because, in-case you didn't know this, that's how house-buying goes - if you don't force things'. (She probably won't understand a word of that because it's emotional intelligence as well as spiritual, but never mind...cos she won't want to admit it.) Summary: You're starting to dictate terms. (Sparklers, Firecrackers, Champagne...!)

You're still not really reading me properly, though, are you. You haven't answered my back-questions nor my question about my back-questions(!). Why not?

So she never conceded defeat she just explained that given the housing market it's better to look early as things can go wrong, but I never agreed or disagreed with that. So just let the conversation end. (She broke up with her ex whilst living at her parents house, so we are moving back in with my folks in a few weeks, and id rather not break up whilst at my folks) Below is a 35 question quiz presented in the book. Go through the questions and think deeply about your answers. By the end, you may find some answers. 1. Thinking about that time when things between you and your partner were at their best. Looking back, would you now say that things were really very good between you then? Yes ✅ 2. Has there been more that one incident of physical violence in your relationship? No ✅ 3. Have you already made a concrete commitment to pursue a course of action or lifestyle that definitely excludes your partner? No✅ 4. If God or some omniscient being said it was okay to leave, would you feel tremendously relieved and have a strong sense that finally you could end your relationship? ????🤔 5. In spite of your problems, do you and your partner have even one positively pleasurable activity or interest (besides children) that you currently share and look forward to sharing in the future, something you do together that you both like and that gives both of you a feeling of closeness for awhile? Cinema holidays?🤔 6. Would you say that to you, your partner is basically nice, reasonable intelligent, not too neurotic, okay to look at, and most of the time smells alright? Yes✅ ---7. Does you partner bombard you with difficulties when you try to get even the littlest thing you want; and is it your experience that almost any need you have gets obliterated; and if you ever do get what you want, is getting it such and ordeal that you don’t feel it was worth the effort? 🤔🤔🤔Sometimes 🤔 yes Xxxxx constantly telling me what to do, fake promises never delivers - "power people poisen passion" lost all mine - she told me to have therapy relisten?????????? As everyone and again I get my way but only when threatened ---8. Does it seem to you that your partner generally and consistently blocks your attempts to bring up topics or raise questions, particularly about things you care about? 🤔🤔🤔🤔Not anymore but does go along with it 9. Have you got to the point, when your partner says something, that you usually feel it’s more likely that he’s lying than that he’s telling the truth? ❌❌❌Future faking 10. In spite of admirable qualities, and stepping back from any temporary anger or disappointment, do you genuinely like your partner, and does your partner seem to like you? Yes✅ 11. Do you feel willing to give your partner more than you’re giving already, and are you willing to do this the way things are between you now, without any expectation of being paid back? No, but maintain ❌✅🤔🤔🤔 don't get more back? No help, no dinner after rugby but she eats herself couldve made me some 12. Do both you and your partner want to touch each other and look forward to touching each other and make efforts to touch each other? ,✅ 13. Do you feel a unique sexual attraction to your partner? ✅ Not gunna cheat 14. Does your partner neither see nor admit things you’ve tried to tell him/her to acknowledge that make your relationship too bad to stay in? Missed 🤔🤔🤔 15. Is there something your partner does that makes your relationship too bad to stay in and that s/he acknowledges but that, for all intents and purposes, s/he’s unwilling to do anything about? Yes ❌ health/ sex/ cooking/ no effort After 2 threats of needing and calling wedding off 16. This problem your partner has that makes you want to leave; have you tried to let it go, ignore it, stop letting it bother you? And were you successful? Yes❌ and unsuccessful ❌❌❌ but might be able to ✅ 17. As you think about your partner’s problem that makes your relationship too bad to stay in, does s/he acknowledge it and is s/he willing to do something about it and is s/he able to change ? No❌ 18 &19. Has your partner violated what for you is a bottom line?* Yes ❌ forcing proposal and I let it slide If my partner did......................................................................................... ...then I’d feel I’d have to leave the relationship* If my partner didn’t do.................................................................................then I’d feel I’d have to leave the relationship If these things were true about my partner..........................................then I’d feel I’d have to leave the relationship 20. Is there a clearly formulated, passionately held difference between you that has to do with the shape and texture and quality of your life as you actually experience it? Yes✅ 21. In spite of all the ways you’re different, would you say that deep down or in some respect that’s important to you, your partner is someone just like you in a way you feel good about? Yes✅ 22. With your new, more complete, more realistic set of information about what it would be like for you if you left, have you discovered new, more probable realities that now make leaving seem impossible, difficult or unpleasant? No 24. Does your partner do such a good job of conveying the idea that you’re a nut or a jerk or a loser or an idiot about parts of yourself that are important to you that you’ve started to really become demonstrably convinced of it yourself? No✅ 25. As you think about your partner’s disrespect, is it clear to you that you do everything possible to limit your contact with your partner, except for times where you absolutely must interact? Yes❌ 26. Do you feel that your partner, overall and more often than not, shows concrete support for and genuine interest in the things you’re trying to do that are important to you? Kind of 27. Whatever was done that caused hurt and betrayal, do you have a sense that the pain and damage has lessened with time? No❌ 28. Is there a demonstrated capacity and mechanism for genuine forgiveness in your relationship? Yes✅ 29. Is it likely that, if you have a reasonable need, you and your partner will be able to work out a way for you to get it met without too painful a struggle? Don't think so❌ 30. Is there some particular need that’s so important to you that if you don’t get it met, looking back you’ll say your life wasn’t satisfying, and are you starting to get discouraged about ever having it met? Yes ❌ 31. Given the way your partner acts, does it feel as though in getting close to you what he’s most interested in is subjecting you to his anger and criticism? No ✅ 32. When the subject of intimacy comes up between you and your partner, is there generally a battle over what intimacy is and how to get it? Yes❌ 33. Does your relationship support your having fun together? Yes✅ 34. Do you currently share goals and dreams for your life together? Yes✅ 35. If all the problems in your relationship were magically solved today, would you still feel ambivalent about whether to stay or leave? Yes❌ These are the answers to my book questions. Can you list your questions I've missed please?

Cam I ask do you think I am in a toxic relationship? I don't know how I feel about the future and I both think it can and can't work out. The book talked a lot about abivilanvce and that's exactly where I am.

Eyup! "So she never conceded defeat she just explained that given the housing market it's better to look early as things can go wrong, but I never agreed or disagreed with that. So just let the conversation end." ((Yeah, well, according to you, darlin', literally everything that'd make YOU and ONLY you feel cushily-secure should be done prematurely.)) 1. Let HER go house-viewing, then. With a galfriend (- does she even have one?). Your individual, buyer's attitude, strategy and methodology are just as important and valid as hers? So there's the compromise. Or use her gender against her? 'Oh, women are much better at that sort of thing' (...in which case - I'll bet she isn't, haha!) 2. If she manages to drag you along, just see it as Future Buyer Training (learning what you do and don't like about various abodes...very valuable experience, that...DeLuxe Lemonade out of Lemons). Meanwhile, keep telling her her taste in houses is (cough) probably better than yours anyway because the 'woman's' usually is. If she still nags: TELL HER THE MARKET PRICES COULD BE HIGHER BY THE TIME YOU'RE READY TO BUY, ERGO, VIEWING PREMATURELY MIGHT JUST BE SETTING YOURSELVES UP FOR UNREALISTIC EXPECTATIONS LEADING TO MASSIVE DISAPPOINTMENT. (She's like that other, past (female) poster's Narc-Spath, the one whom likewise was pressuring her to 'buy a house together'. He was like a sodding broken record! I'll go find the link for you. "(She broke up with her ex whilst living at her parents house, so we are moving back in with my folks in a few weeks, and id rather not break up whilst at my folks)" 3. Wotchootalkinabout?! Best place TO break up! You can grieve so much faster if your mum n dad are enjoying getting to have another quick burst of 'getting baby You back' (despite not enjoying your pain) - like, cooking, clothes washing-ironing, cuddles, talks... All the things you won't feel capable of doing! NO??? RSVP? 4. If there ARE any problems, in that way, re. your parents' - or the traditionally-nurturing parent's - nurturing capabilities, then, don't-a wuuuuuu-rry, Senorrrrrr. I know lots of tips and tricks to get them positively tripping over themselves to help/nurse you through it. (All YOU have to do is try not to laugh when they do, including out of relief as well as feeling like a wizardly (temporary!) counter-manipulator. :) ) 5. As for you worrying you might be a Narcissist or even too highly narcissistIC on the Normal-Healthy scale (i.e. egotistic/self-centred - which is normal for one who's injured), even?... Oh, doooo shut-up, Timothy? :p So far - which by-now is bloody far (6 months)! - you're the polar opposite. You're just very cagey because you don't trust that people who know you won't see this nor know instantly who you are (which is because being repeatedly set-up then let-down (promised then dashed and the rest of it), erodes your even normal-level, readily available trust - in yourself, people, your parents, the world, that there can be a god.... FYI your parents likewise should WANT it to happen there. If you're with a Narc, you're automatically out-numbered. Even just one parent secretly on your team helps even-out the chances, but, the Narc DESERVES three of you. Not as revenge, but to teach them a lesson they'll never forget so that if they CAN be trauma'ed out of it, THEY WILL...which means you'll have saved them from any more of their living self-destruction/death. Win-Win. I'm giving you perfectly honourable tactics here, given how badly she's reduced you and how much I just want to put her over my lap and give her the damn spanking her parents should have given her (- at the very-VERY least you can see she's a spoilt-brat?)....and given that her gloves are LONG off. I mean - talking you down in front of your makers (parents)?????? That was a deal-breaker, too. An instant one ("Right, that's enough, I'm taking you home..... Sorry, Mum n Dad but this woman for too long has been behaving very *anti*-relationship-ly, meaning, that, for me, is the final straw. (Get your things, NOW, and then say goodbye to my parents.)" 6. Are they aware of what's going on? They MUST be!? (I mean - even just after THAT they must have been thinking, 'WTF, Lady?!', surely?) ___________________________________________________________________________________ "Below is a 35 question quiz presented in the book. Go through the questions and think deeply about your answers. By the end, you may find some answers." Okie-pokie.... 1. Thinking about that time when things between you and your partner were at their best. Looking back, would you now say that things were really very good between you then? Yes ✅" (Course they were. But define 'between you-plural'? She WASN'T her true self, she put on an extended ACT.) "2. Has there been more that one incident of physical violence in your relationship? No ✅" Define 'violence', considering the effects of how she speaks/treats/behaves/reacts achieve the same neuropsychological into bodily deterioration/damage? "3. Have you already made a concrete commitment to pursue a course of action or lifestyle that definitely excludes your partner? No✅" Well, then, you're still revving. Because - in case you hadn't noticed - you still *neither* have made one that definitely INCLUDES her. So, taken in context, plus your prior ACTIONS, your answer there is Not Really or Not Yet, equals Torn. "4. If God or some omniscient being said it was okay to leave, would you feel tremendously relieved and have a strong sense that finally you could end your relationship? ????🤔" You're still in Cognitive Dissonance, you still neither have a strong sense that you could legally and fiscally COMMIT to it, so - how on earth would YOU know? So that means - Q4 - answer: BOTH....TORN BETWEEN. Yep, you're still revving. Listen to me: you're doing an Escaping From A Narcissist, not just Masters but Professorship course! Because, most victim-survivors take up to 6 failed attempts/follow-throughs before succeedings and staying Stayed Away on the 7th. THIS IS YOUR FIRST. Stop being so hard on yourself - I mean it! Stop it! You're not 'doing badly', like you seem to think - you're doing record-breakingly WELL! You're taking your time, giving your mind time to work things out, get free, plan, and catch-up....SHUFFLING IMPERCEPTIBLY out of the dungeon....fractional step by fractional step. Like you basically, tantamountedly said - you'd rather not hurt her, you'd rather she dumped YOU (- "Oh-oh-ohhhh, let's fi-iiight" - And in fact, you should think seriously about starting and running your own company if you can take this much stress for this protracted a period, i.e. manage a very tricky, important, long-running PROJECT! (Project Manageurrrrr.) Your patience, your tenacity, your determination, your courage.... Spoilt Brats in Grown-Up Suits (whether Expect-er or Just Take-er) don't possess those, for bleedin' obvious reasons (me wannit it my way, now-now-now, for-free/without having to work for it - or else!/or else + I'll just take it anyway!). Question: Did a tiny part of you fail to dump her earlier-on (when her 'starting-up' first reached Critical) because your brain was being under-employed/under-challenged, by any chance? Did you think that after a while, your love would improve/cure her? ALSO...another part of your revving is this Limbering-Up physically (the Rugby). You're a long-prepper type of planner. 'Preparation is everything'. You hate not to get something right first time, doncha. :) Meanwhile, you just want to know how you feel, therefore where you stand and which fork in the road you want to take. You're not even 'enduring/suffering' much/at all any more, you're just biding your time. (vvrmmm-vrrm-vrrrrmmmmmmm!) "5. In spite of your problems, do you and your partner have even one positively pleasurable activity or interest (besides children) that you currently share and look forward to sharing in the future, something you do together that you both like and that gives both of you a feeling of closeness for awhile? Cinema holidays?🤔" Cinema holidays with a question mark equals, Cinema holidays?...I think?....Dunno, really; that's the only thing I could think of. (Psst, I think Myra means something more meaty than that, like, being quietly together, reading in bed at night, intermittently chatting, enjoying just being able to completely and utterly RELAX (mentally) together. Your perfect partner should feel like your Me Time as much as your prior Me Time, not part of your Not Me Time. (Sense?) Do I do mean relaxed, not wondering where the next 'whatever' will strike from or why (etc.). Interesting that you DIDN'T put, Sex. Coverts - Cerebrals (as opposed to Somatics) - get you hooked then however-much gradually-but-prematurely or slowly turn that faucet OFF. Then only ever have sex with you to disarm you, talk you round, get off the hook - whatever... Hook & Prime then Mega-Prime. "6. Would you say that to you, your partner is basically nice, reasonable intelligent, not too neurotic, okay to look at, and most of the time smells alright? Yes✅" OKAY, THEN: POSSIBLY, SHE'S A BENIGN OR STRAIGHT COVERT WHO GOT CRANKED-UP FOR A WHILE....unless.... Is that based on her recent Best(is) Behaviour in reaction to your whole 'closing the book on the DJ' incident? Or based on the years PRIOR to this? And how many years prior? "7. Does you partner bombard you with difficulties when you try to get even the littlest thing you want; and is it your experience that almost any need you have gets obliterated; and if you ever do get what you want, is getting it such and ordeal that you don’t feel it was worth the effort?" (YES! Now let's see what you put...) "🤔🤔🤔Sometimes 🤔 yes Xxxxx constantly telling me what to do, fake promises never delivers - "power people poisen passion" lost all mine - she told me to have therapy relisten?????????? As everyone and again I get my way but only when threatened" You've put Sometimes, Yes... then ended on Yes. It's a Yes. IMPORTANT POSITIVE: Barely any Cognitive Dissonance there, look? And remember what I said about what's going on in your head AND FOR HOW LONG, *while* you're getting OVER her latent stunt/drama/verbal abuse! It's not even Sometimes, it's All The time: abusive words/act plus aftermath then arse-lick/re-love-bomb then tension build-up then abusive words/act plus aftermath.... (google Cycle of Narcissistic Abuse). I NOW SUSPECT PART OF HER RECENT 'BEST BEHAVIOUR' PACKAGE MEANS BACK TO PURELY COVERT (negative in-disguise as positive) AND POSSIBLY EVEN AMBIENT abuse, so, SEEMS positive and a reversion to the character you fell in-love with (- her however-much back in Love-Bombing/Arse-Squeezing-Trousers-Superglued mode), but isn't and still is toxic regardless. ...Including because she THINKS she's back to getting her way....Currently in a false sense of security/Power Over (you) "BACK" (by back, I mean, the victim's *Reactive* Abuse... naturally, finally losing it and here-and-there 'giving them a taste of their own medicine'.) - Constantly telling you what to do is not normal nor her human or positional right - you're NOT HER SON (and so now I can easily tell that she thinks she's back on top, in control of you again (which isn't important and can be used against her, now that you know what's what (if not yet how you totally feel about it)). - Constantly promising yet never delivering - not normal, abusive (erodes your sense of Integrity in terms of What Comes Up Must Come Down (not with a Narc, nope), plus the raising your expectations/hope, only to dash them again (from a ruddy great height). - Constantly Gaslighting you as a way to emasculate and disarm you - not normal, abusive. - ...Including that you're the one needs therapy, doesn't listenzzzzz..... all of that. "8. Does it seem to you that your partner generally and consistently blocks your attempts to bring up topics or raise questions, particularly about things you care about? 🤔🤔🤔🤔Not anymore but does go along with it" Not any more SINCE WHEN EXACTLY? Please be specific, Holmes, dear chap? "9. Have you got to the point, when your partner says something, that you usually feel it’s more likely that he’s lying than that he’s telling the truth? ❌❌❌Future faking Uh-huh. Nuff said. That makes anyone having a healthy, point-full relationship with her, impossible. Literally. And for all you know - only the lies that had a Finishing Line are the ones you know about (because what was promised didn't arrive). If ALL you'd answered was this one, that would do. You MUST (eventually) leave her, but, if you like, suggest a post break-up friendship-break with a view to resorting to bessies or bro-sis. That'll do. Might even be better. You just don't want to be within pinching/punching/kicking/spitting distance, that's all. Albeit - also, you still don't trust them not to still be lying all over the shop. But see now, how there being so-called Milder Narcs doesn't actually give you any advantage, due to the fact that what's given away with one hand gets undone with the other hand? You're going to fall out of Love then Like with her, whatever you do or try. You, taking back control over your rightful 'stuff' and 'remits' - WHICH YOU ARE! - BUT WEREN'T! - is amazing progress in only LESS than 6 mths actually, if you include time spent sorting the evidence table! You're starting to act like a man who knows it's Her Or You (Survivalist time), REGARDLESS that he feels heartbroken and unsure about it 'up top'. CAN you, as the hopeful intention, escape the 'Close Quarters' portion of your relationship and convert it back to Just Friends/Out-Of-Range, as a First Attempt, with this shuffling-away almost imperceptibly? Do we care how? Shuffle on your TONGUE if that's what it takes. BUT, JUST DON'T PULL ALL YOUR MUSCLES/BREAK YOUR BONES AS YOU DO IT. The minute you're on the Leaving Them conveyor-belt - even if all you put on is a toe! - there's no going back (despite there is the said 'stopping THE RELATIONSHIP, having a decent "de-habit-ing/de-flea-ing" break before starting the NEW relationship' (friends). But will you even WANT to stay as friends by the end of this? Well, that all depends on her, doesn't it. She ain't doing quite well enough to save her ENGAGEMENT, though, is she. This is typical with a Covert or Covert-Vulnerable, particularly Cerebral: As in, being able to tell what they are under the false smiles and mask generally: You don't see them coming.....You don't even see them staying (just flashes that are too fast)....But you certainly see them when they're GOING...either, when they're done with YOU (whether or not because you've deliberately tried to put them off) - and ESPECIALLY when you're so done with them that they go, 'Ah, fckt, plenty more victims in the sea'. It's because their claws, horns and tails show only from the back. Once you've seen those - there's no going back. So I wasn't SURPRISED you wanted to start a fight. That's just because your Spidey Senses are so spot-on re. what and when to do about it and how. If you want to keep going slowly, inchingly - keep going slowly, inchingly. Getting out of her dungeon or BOTH of you getting out of her dungeon (and never going there again) is all that matters, when you consider that a couple of years is NOT MUCH, REALLY, in an entire lifetime. So this is why you should relax and go back to seeing this as an experiment. Here, what's bessie mate saying at this point? Is HE pleased with you? "10. In spite of admirable qualities, and stepping back from any temporary anger or disappointment, do you genuinely like your partner, and does your partner seem to like you? Yes✅" So this is why you're so sad and torn, then. :/ Maybe to begin with, you should have just stayed friends and moved-in as just housemates?... kept her more at that arms-length? QUESTION: But where is she showing she actually likes YOU - or ever DID - or still DOES? Could YOU behave, unprovoked, like she's been for too long, consistently on-off, towards you OF ALL PEOPLE!, to someone YOU even merely liked? Let alone alleged to love? Including pushing and pressuring your clearly, already-anxious partner, like she's currently DOING YET AGAIN (just over a different aspect)?! Never mind pleasant conversation whenever she thinks she's in-charge and getting her own way - what positive, pro-You and pro-Relationship ACTIONS of hers, during this probation, have appeared or improved? "11. Do you feel willing to give your partner more than you’re giving already, and are you willing to do this the way things are between you now, without any expectation of being paid back? No, but maintain ❌✅🤔🤔🤔 don't get more back? No help, no dinner after rugby but she eats herself couldve made me some. YOU'RE 'ABOUT TO' MARRY 'MY' EX-SPOUSE! 'Why isn't supper ready?' 'Sorry, did leave you a voicemail to bring us both home a micro spag or something...had a migraine/temperature all afternoon'. 'Don't worry, I'll make my own.' '........................................UH!.................????????????'. To try to make someone important-and-loveable-actually! to feel unimportant, un-loveable. (THEN WHY ARE THEY STILL *WITH* YOU? Answer: same reason they got with you, which, has nothing to do with liking or loving.... doesn't even feature. It's their job. And she has yet to prove me wrong, meaning,... *****We're still stuck on - why isn't SHE pausing it or calling if off? Why isn't SHE relieved to get a pause-for-thought by living for a couple of months at your folks?***** ...and - now that I know you're about to marry 'my' Nex-spouse, we're back to - YOU CAN'T MARRY "THAT"?!?!!??? Eff-me!.....that's HUGE! That's not just Selfishness through-the-roof, that's seeing where you hurt and deliberately aiming to make it worse!!! And it's Narc stye PUNISHMENT...for putting yourself, your health, your mental health, first for a bloody change (and - a bid for Normality, including the Freedom to make your own choices and decisions.) That's not just a Red Flag, it's a Red bloody Yacht-sail! She'll cheat on you, for-sure! Do it back to her when SHE'S ill/incapable - at the first available opportunity - whatever SHE expects or relies on! ("Why should I? YOU didn't?". Or going further: "How's that an equal aka love relationship? How's that even sane?") (Google "Covert Narcissist - one rule for them, another for you") Okay. It was too soon to 'listen to' Myra and expect it to be able to battle your CogDiss in-one, so - correct: keep playing it (- good instincts!). "12. Do both you and your partner want to touch each other and look forward to touching each other and make efforts to touch each other? ,✅" Before I comment - what's the Comma for? What fell off/did you delete? "13. Do you feel a unique sexual attraction to your partner? ✅ Not gunna cheat" Noted. (Would be pointless anyway.) So, basically, with that AND that you still can like her: if she hadn't got brain-damaged along the way, she would have worked as an in-'perfect'-working-order soulmate. 'So near and yet so far'. Awww, mate... No wonder you're having such a hard time doing what you know/sense you want and need to do.... (((((((((((((((((((((REASSURING DAD HUG)))))))))))))))))))))))) "14. Does your partner neither see nor admit things you’ve tried to tell him/her to acknowledge that make your relationship too bad to stay in? Missed 🤔🤔🤔" Missed what. What??? "15. Is there something your partner does that makes your relationship too bad to stay in and that s/he acknowledges but that, for all intents and purposes, s/he’s unwilling to do anything about? Yes ❌ health/ sex/ cooking/ no effort After 2 threats of needing and calling wedding off" Translation: You consistently don't have a say. (typical) So - under Best Foot Forward/Love Re-Bombing (Once More) - she's Benign and more your Spoilt and Demanding, Thin-Skinned but Insensitive, Uncaring, Non-LIKING, even (own supper), Disrespecting, Antagonistic, Lying-Deceiving-Duping BRAT of a Hard-Sales Salesperson - yes? That's either her True Default OR is all that she can manage when busting-a-gut to save her cushy job. (Reckon the MINUTE you married she'd give up her RL job OR start working all the hours (only telling you at the 11th hr when it were too late to arrange something with someone else (unless you have a Local?)) while hiding her income figure!). Swat Coverts/Covert-Vulerables/N-Spaths do. "16. This problem your partner has that makes you want to leave; have you tried to let it go, ignore it, stop letting it bother you? And were you successful? Yes❌ and unsuccessful ❌❌❌ but might be able to ✅" But why would you even WANT to have to BE that tolerant and patient and self-sacrificing and-and-and, for the rest of your days? Why do you feel you have to settle for her? What is it that has you convinced you're not very marketable or point-of-sale appealing? Don't you realise you could have someone like her/her acted character, but WITHOUT all her bad/horrid points? What about all those female victims, only just now getting out of 'emotional hospital', or about to, who, now, just want someone with a good heart?? Are you scared to date again or have to start over? Or have got too much on your plate for making such a big change? What?...what is it/are they? "17. As you think about your partner’s problem that makes your relationship too bad to stay in, does s/he acknowledge it and is s/he willing to do something about it and is s/he able to change ? No❌" GAME OVER. A case of When it crashes, not If. (Really sorry.) Answer to Q16 should therefore be: But I might be able to (for a little while longer). With mine and bestie's support - yeah. "18 &19. Has your partner violated what for you is a bottom line?* Yes ❌ forcing proposal and I let it slide" GAME OVER (doubly Over). (Never mind what you did/didn't do - it's just the fact you've ticked two Dealbreaker questions.) ""If my partner did......................................................................................... ...then I’d feel I’d have to leave the relationship* If my partner didn’t do.................................................................................then I’d feel I’d have to leave the relationship If these things were true about my partner..........................................then I’d feel I’d have to leave the relationship" Er... You going to fill this in? "20. Is there a clearly formulated, passionately held difference between you that has to do with the shape and texture and quality of your life as you actually experience it? Yes✅" Basically, you're too incompatible. GAME OVER (triply Over). "21. In spite of all the ways you’re different, would you say that deep down or in some respect that’s important to you, your partner is someone just like you in a way you feel good about? Yes✅" ...but obviously do have a few *compatibilities*, which (cough!) just so happen (cough!) to be ones that make you feel good (cough!, crikey, that's lucky?!) PS: acted character, formed during the 'interview' dates to hook your particular needs/desires/preferences so you'll believe she's uniquely convenient & cushy when she isn't at all. If you married/stayed married to her, she'd start to drip-drip withdraw those things or reveal that she now does them for HER benefit. Swat Coverts Do. I mean - great if you're right and they're genuine, but, let's put these to the test: in which ways, that are important to you, is she just like you/compatible? "22. With your new, more complete, more realistic set of information about what it would be like for you if you left, have you discovered new, more probable realities that now make leaving seem impossible, difficult or unpleasant? No" (Hallelujlia!) Know what I suspect at this point? That Conscious You is telling yourself you want to put her into a guest-of-mum-n-dad situation (increased pressure) (quite FORMAL, are they?), to see what happens when (normally) naturally experiencing greater inhibition/taboos, as well as just naturally putting your VERY best foot forward.....when in reality, it's because,-deeper down, you know her arse will explode and spill out, and quite possibly faster/more overtly BECAUSE of that added pressure. (To her, it would be whether she could take the Risk and get away with it.....the fact she's (cough!) not been well, for instance.....) To see how much BETTER she behaves for them, even! (That'll piss you off for-sure.) Like taking her into a church to see if she'll (strangely all-of-a-sudden) behave or do something completely anti-situaton...anti-social. Haha...this is like making HER the litmus by dipping her into successive test-tubes! :D Anyhoo.... "24. Does your partner do such a good job of conveying the idea that you’re a nut or a jerk or a loser or an idiot about parts of yourself that are important to you that you’ve started to really become demonstrably convinced of it yourself? No✅" Is that No, as in, She Hasn't -or- is it, No to your having become convinced her lies are true? Or No to both? "25. As you think about your partner’s disrespect, is it clear to you that you do everything possible to limit your contact with your partner, except for times where you absolutely must interact? Yes❌" GAME OVER (quadruply Over). Don't you realise you've basically left her already, and that the rest is just a formality?...except for it'll feature the continuation of your Spocky experiment of trying her in starkly different settings (Got-chaaaaaaa!, hahaha!). Course. You're a fixer, innit. Misplaced Guilt and Needing To Know but learning better on-the-job than in-theory, plus having a live one that could well explode if not handled correctly Mr Senior Gas Engineer, hahaha. And WHY NOT?! Wouldn't advise it on your own but you have me? Seriously - where have you BEEN all your life? You really need to get to know yourself more (once you're done here), relying on YOUR opinion of yourself, nobody else's (cos you're the only one who has to live with you 24/7 ...even in your dreams). Certainly, I can see you coming out of this, a lot bolder (but still gentlemanly). PS: How did the work investigation go? I'm assuming, Fine, since you've said nothing further about it? "26. Do you feel that your partner, overall and more often than not, shows concrete support for and genuine interest in the things you’re trying to do that are important to you? Kind of" That's means it's a portion of both. Would you say, 50% of the time? Less? More? Can you think of or have a guess at a percentage? Or are you saying the support/interest doesn't go far enough nor deep enough? Is it more just piecemeal, like a placator-ette? "27. Whatever was done that caused hurt and betrayal, do you have a sense that the pain and damage has lessened with time? No❌" GAME OVER (quintupally Over) (just still talking 'Technically', obvs. Mainly to show you what kind of weights you've been daily, constantly lifting.) "28. Is there a demonstrated capacity and mechanism for genuine forgiveness in your relationship? Yes✅" Really? What was that/were they? "29. Is it likely that, if you have a reasonable need, you and your partner will be able to work out a way for you to get it met without too painful a struggle? Don't think so❌" GAME OVER (sextuply Over). Start just taking/helping yourself. Don't Ask For Anything, Don't Offer Anything. E.g. on Rugby nights just come back with a micro meal for just you. She showed that's permissable in your little society of twoooo, inniiiiit (prrth!, she shoulda thoughta that cos everything sheee does, now, yoou get to dooo, inniiiit...thass just how the world works, innit....shoulda thoughta thaaat, shoudn'a set that silly toone, prrrrrth!....). (Sorry...You know how I feel about it/her...unless and until she changes my mind back again for me.) "30. Is there some particular need that’s so important to you that if you don’t get it met, looking back you’ll say your life wasn’t satisfying, and are you starting to get discouraged about ever having it met? Yes ❌" GAME OVER (septuply Over). Which need is it? To finally get to complete a sentance? (LOL-but-seriously). Or is it the supper thing? "31. Given the way your partner acts, does it feel as though in getting close to you ((comma)) what ((she's)) most interested in is subjecting you to ((her)) anger and criticism? No ✅" Would you say she's just too frequently irritable and irritated? Makes you feel like a pest, chore, and a no-mark? "32. When the subject of intimacy comes up between you and your partner, is there generally a battle over what intimacy is and how to get it? Yes❌" You mean physical/sexual intimacy or emotional/mental? Or both? "33. Does your relationship support your having fun together? Yes✅" Such as? "34. Do you currently share goals and dreams for your life together? Yes✅" May I ask what some of those are, please? "35. If all the problems in your relationship were magically solved today, would you still feel ambivalent about whether to stay or leave? Yes❌" Then, that means you have reached the point where you have more holes in your fence-like-self than fence. Yeah, *I'd* be popping her right about now into my parents' test-tube-come-straitjacket, as well. Truly Excellent Move, Sonny James! (Thlup!) "These are the answers to my book questions." They certainly are! :) See requests for clarification (or better yet, the truly unexpurgated version if you please?). "Can you list your questions I've missed please?" Naaah.... Don't worry about it for now. What was the MOST urgent was to know whether you would be willing to cooperate to X degree, but, even before you offered this question for a list, you'd already blown me away with your effort, there. (Thlup!) THANK-you. SINCERELY. I REALLY-REALLY appreciate that. :)

"Cam I ask do you think I am in a toxic relationship?" You know I do. (Certainly after that up there!) She's a Take-Take-Taker/even Scammer, Lazy Arse; you're the Give-Give-Giver/even Self-Sacrificer, AT THE VERY LEAST. Meanwhile, you drip-by-drip (think ice-lolly suspended from the ceiling) shrink/shrivel-up and die. "I don't know how I feel about the future" That's because it's always The Great Unknown. It's fear because you can't picture it, which is like losing your vital life-orienteering map (or, worse, whole atlas). You obviously prefer to plan far ahead. It's feeling like a self-control mechanism's been snatched off you. But what interests me, more, is (actions!) that YOU'RE NOW *THINKING ABOUT AND MAKING REFERENCE TO* THE FUTURE - "LIFE AFTER THE NEX". Also the Rugby is many-fold. Healthier AND better-looking AND more pride AND sexier & more confident without your clothes on (just in case). Yeah, you could have gone into Big-Time, Corporate Insurance, you could. :) Maybe even a money/comodities-broker for the Stock Exchange, specifically (guess what lol) - Futures. Your future is going to be a lot healthier which will automatically make it a lot happier, on TOP of the incredible feeling of self-pride at what you went through but came out of the (their perception) Winner. 'I outfoxed and escaped from a slow-acting Serial Killer with nothing but a few cuts and bruises..........., unlike her.' "and I both think it can and can't work out. The book talked a lot about abivilanvce and that's exactly where I am." No, it's where only half of you is. Your Inner Animal is already packed and waiting impatiently in the car, hahaha. Actions now irrefutably prove it (see above). I think I will help greatly if you re-read this thread. :) There might be things that newly or more impactfully hit you now, this further down the line? Bet there will. Anyhoo - over to you and the clarifying (as soon as you get a decent mo.). :)

I don't understand myself absolutely everything you've said I agree with, but then there is just something drawing me back and I'm torn between making mountains out of molehills or feeling exactly as I should. Mate asked me how I feel about looking at houses, (which as you know is premature for my choice), but I said I'm not excited and feel I should be really. The book has really helped in that I'm not sure whether to leave or go, but highlighted that my choosing to stay is a decision in itself. We've started looking at houses now and she is excited but I'm just not, but I want to be. I just can't get past the outbursts for not proposing and the future faking back in Jan after I proposed, she didn't keep any promises to April but has upped a little, still not learnt to cook or done any exercise, like she said she would. I'm really struggling with the concept of am I expected her to change to something she is not or should she honour her commitment to what she's promised. When I have a drink I feel better. Bad I know Thank you for the comment on my effort on the book. I know you think I should leave andy mate said the same although the 2 were torn before Christmas. My mate who said leave has now slightly come around but I don't know if that's just trying to be supportive. I e been listening to a lot of stuff and it does resonate but he said not to dive to deep as it can confirm a biase. I just can't leave nor bring myself to do so As I said she broke up with her ex whilst at his folks home so I don't want to put her through that again if it happens. I just can't get over the forced proposal and the screaming at me for not doing it in Paris last year on her birthday. And the disingenuous lies about the relationship I just cc ant bring myself to show anyone this thread.

Just put an offer on a house, and I have to keep convincing myself this is going to work. But I am getting a massive swell of anxiety every time the house stuff goes forward and there is a lot on at the moment, as I wanted to wait a month to start looking. We're moving in with my folks this weekend as as I said she broke up with her ex whilst living at his parents house and so I don't want this to fall apart as I cannot leave but I also still hold a lot of resentment.

Bear with - be with you tomorrow!

Thank you. Had an offer accepted on a house today and I'm just not excited was her birthday. She was grateful for her gifts but not for a bracelet I got her cause it was the wrong one, and mentioned it about 4 times about it being wrong after I said I'd send it back and get a different one. Her mum (who I have tried to get on with but just takes over) has decided she likes the bungalows next to where the house is and want to move there. Massive swell of anxiety about this as she said the other day that she will lean on my mum and hers if she were pregnant, and I said well no I don't want to have a lot of outside help with the children. Her mum is over opinionated and takes over. The exactsame thing happend to my older brother and with his ex wife,but I can't seem to get out of this now. Like I said I want to tell people but I can't.

Thank you for the help. I just don't have the words to end this as I'm leaning on hope for the future but can't get past the patterns.

Bumping you up (you're next after Blue). Hadn't forgotten. Wish there were two of me, haha, or at least that I had two pairs of hands.

Heya! SORRY. I'm trying so hard to keep up with everyone but it's really difficult in this incredible heat (Stupid Degrees C) and with the electrical and structural damage the recent storms did. Hassles galore! You've got all the emotional aggro and I've got the practical. I would say, wanna swap?, but - noooo, I've been where you are.....noooooo...lol, anyway... "Had an offer accepted on a house today and I'm just not excited was her birthday. She was grateful for her gifts but not for a bracelet I got her cause it was the wrong one, and mentioned it about 4 times about it being wrong after I said I'd send it back and get a different one." Oh for ffffff***'s SAKE! ...AGAIN?!? WTF is she LIKE?! Spoiled and over-entitled or WHAT! Where do you get your patience? I'd have lost it at that point and said, 'Well, sell it on Ebay or shove it up yer bum, then, you ungrateful b*tch!'. Or at the very least, 'I shall give Jeeves his Leave Of Notice, immediately, Madam!'. Sh***ing f**k.... Aw, just someone give me the bloody gun. You can't marry that. You can't. You just CAN'T. You realise the reason why she's been trying to get out of having to stay at your folks, don't you? "It" didn't end last time she did that - she acted like the brat she is and the parents saw right through her. They don't WANT witnesses to what they cannot keep a lid on. Those witnesses aren't wearing those vital Rose-Tinteds-come-Fear-Tinteds and won't make excuses for her nor tolerate it in their house, towards their 'child'. "Her mum (who I have tried to get on with but just takes over)" Yeah...Rotten Tree bears Rotten Apple. "has decided she likes the bungalows next to where the house is and want to move there." WTF's it got to do with HER?!?!! "Massive swell of anxiety about this as she said the other day that she will lean on my mum and hers if she were pregnant, and I said well no I don't want to have a lot of outside help with the children. Her mum is over opinionated and takes over." EXACTLY! "The exactsame thing happend to my older brother and with his ex wife,but I can't seem to get out of this now. Like I said I want to tell people but I can't." This is news? WHAT exact same thing? Spillez-vous?

Anyway - what does she MEAN 'the wrong one'. What - is she doing that typical nonsense of TELLING you what presents she wants? It doesn't work like that! You get what you're bloody given and you're bloody grateful, or else, you're supposed to wait weeks until you HUMBLY AND APOLOGETICALLY say something like, 'Um, actually, although it is lovely, it's not really me, I was more hoping for this type - would you mind very much if I change it? Say if you do, cos I can keep it in my jewellery box anyway, as a lovely momento, but obviously I'd rather wear it (etc).' But, even politely and cautiously like that - you're not supposed to feel free to complain every bloody birthday/Xmas/Anniversary, otherwise the action becomes a run-of and makes a mockery of said so-called tact! Rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr... Your soon-to-be-Nex is irritating the uck out of me now. How the Hell do you put up with this? HOW??

Mate - tell your parents. PLEASE. Or just let them read this thread. Yeah? They're your Mum and Dad. Stop depriving them of a vital duty and privilege - give them the gift of feeling NEEDED, being your Heroes - which is WHY they don't die 5 minutes after we're born. They'd be really upset you didn't seek their help. I'd be shocked and insulted to the core if you were you my son.) EVERYONE needs their Mum and Dad at whatever points in their life. Bet YOUR Mum and Dad each still wish their Mum and Dad were around. But they've got each other, that's the point (whereas your PFFFFFFiancee is ANTI-You and solely Pro-Herself! She'll make a TRULY SH*T MOTHER! Think about it - she already is! A couple practises on each other ("Oozshy-booszhy-woozshie-woo", tickle-tickle)! You get - 'UGH! NOT GOOD ENOUGH (AGAIN!)' and 'Who gives a sh*t what YOU think/feel?'. And it'll keep getting worse. And worse. AND WORSE. Just go and see them (with your laptop), collapse, all defeated, into an armchair and just mewl, 'Guys...Please help me? I'm in trouble and am too mentally paralysed to do anything about it'. That's what it is, mate: She's beaten that side of you out of you already. Hence you know full-well what to do but JUST CAN'T. Yuh. Spock knows - course he does! But Kirk's the executive (and executioner) on this one and he's out-for-the-count in Intensive bloody Care. Needing and asking for help is not weak (don't listen to that pure Narc propaganda), it's intelligently survivalist including you taking benefit of what life lays out for you when it comes to tools and allies, and is a strength. Call it Delegating, if you like. From your (emotional) hospital bed. Which is EXACTLY what you would have to do were this about saving your company. No-one calls a company director in that situation, Weak, do they! They call them strong, determined, hard-working, proactive, dynamic...... (Next present - a My Little Pony. Not a Tamagochi...it'd be dead after 5 minutes.) Plan B: Can't you write her a letter? Make HER end it if you Just Can't.

Plan C: In fact, should be Plan A. Talk to your elder brother. Take him out for an eat-in Indian (plenty of time). Get drunk first if you have to. But he's the best person. He'll want to rescue his past self, as well. And that success will help him too.

Eyup! Busy or thinking long and hard? Re your question - do I really think your 'relationship' is Toxic: Hoping this will help. Basically, yes, and you can see I'm not the only one: __________________________________________________________________________________________ https://www.thehealthy.com/family/relationships/domestic-violence-signs/ (Extracts - from "The Healthy", a Reader's Digest brand) "15 Signs That Your Relationship Could Turn ((even more)) Abusive" ****************************************************************** By Jenn Sinrich Medically reviewed by Ashley Matskevich, MD _____________________ ((my comments/asterisks/repetitions)) "Pay close attention to these warning signs of a potentially abusive relationship. Someone you know could be suffering from domestic violence Domestic violence is far more common than most of us realize—about ((this is an American Statistic)) 20 people per minute suffer abuse, on average, according to the National Coalition Against Domestic Violence (NCADV). Although women are more likely to experience abuse from an intimate partner, at an incidence rate of one in four, *men can also be victims: About one in nine men are abused*. ************** ((Quick aside: About 1 in 9 US men are abused. (So 11.1% of 165.8 million equals.......18,403,800 abused males.) In UK, it's, 1 in 6-7 men. (14.285714% of 32.81 million males equals...........basically, 4,687,142.8 abused males.) Looks as if it's become even higher in the UK, then, huh. (Does that make you wonder what it is, globally?) Just saying... You are not alone by any means. Have a google for any social-based support groups/charities in or nearest your area, I think meeting and comparring notes with other men in your boat would be a HUGE help and super-empowerment experience, I really do. However, it's not women abusing men or men abusing women. It's Abusive Narcissists abusing men and women; the so-called females are just more 'passive'-aggressive (as well as Covert-aggressive) about it and for longer...even your Covert-Vulnerables can be 'fed' until they become too Grandiose to hide it. But, back to the article extracts...)) ************** "For nearly all relationships in which domestic violence occurs, the abuse can remain hidden until later in the relationship. “It is not uncommon for a victim to confide that he or she ‘woke up one day’ to realize—with deep embarrassment and shame—that he or she was in the midst of an abusive relationship,” explains Carla Manly, PhD, a clinical psychologist and author of Joy from Fear. ((Let's repeat that title, shall we: JOY.....from Fear. From Fear to Joy.)) The warning signs of domestic violence, however, can appear early on in a relationship—sometimes even from the start. Here, experts of domestic violence unveil some of the behaviors that indicate a relationship might turn abusive. - Your partner forces you into decisions without regard for your feelings ((*YES*...and it's getting worse because now she's going to swing it so her mother can live bloody next-door, with Open House rights, I'm betting!)) This type of behavior, be it forcing you to move in together prematurely ((TICK!)) or get married before you’re ready ((TICK!)), can signal the potential for an abusive relationship, according to Kendra Kubala, a psychologist in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. “The abusive partner may cause the other partner to feel guilty or ungrateful for asking questions or asking to slow the pace of the relationship,” ((TICK!)) she says. Here’s how to improve communication in your relationship. - Your partner’s alarmingly controlling ((*YES*)) Controlling ((TICK!) or overprotective behavior ((?)) from one partner is a reliable indicator that a relationship could turn abusive. If your partner asks you where you go, starts timing your absence from the house, or inquires about your whereabouts during the day, he or she may some issues with control and may be insecure, warns Rudi Rahbar, a clinical psychologist who specializes in couples and families. You might be experiencing gaslighting—here’s how to tell... - Your partner doesn’t have a social life ((I've gathered - Affirmative: she does not)) If your partner doesn’t seem to have any friends or family members with whom he or she socializes regularly, be wary. A particularly bad sign can be that your partner blames the lack of a social life on their devotion to you. “It may mean your date has problems relating to people, and you’ll soon feel pressure to fill up your date’s life,” Dr. Tessina explains. ((This doesn't really help because, in the beginning, they know how to PRETEND they do, and they pretend WELL. Plus Sociopathic Narcs can get on fine with their family (and mere acquaintances) - show them a fake persona, too...for who KNOWS when he'll find himself Supply-less and decide he needs to scam even them? (They're not relationships worth having, though.) They do have a bit of a Conscience but it's too weak to compete with their compulsion, hence, after the fact, facing your anger/indignation/disapproval, out comes the stream of ridiculous attempts to *justify* the emotional and whatever crime(s) when, in reality, there IS none.)) - You constantly feel like you’re walking on eggshells ((YUP!)) You should feel happy and at ease with your significant other—not always worried that he or she will be upset or disappointed with you. “If you feel the latter, you are likely to be in a relationship with someone who is insecure, has anger management issues and is controlling,” says Dr. Rahbar. “An abuser often creates such a hostile, unpredictable environment that the abused person feels extremely unsafe and on edge.” (("Narcissistic Sociopath - Walking On Eggshells" ...."- Second-Guessing Yourself"... "- Incapable of Making Decisions")) - Your partner explodes in anger often (("...then screeched at". YUP.)) “An explosive, impulsive, and intimidating interactional style ((TICK, TICK, TICK!)) may warn of domestic violence tendencies, explains Mayra Mendez, PhD, a licensed psychotherapist and program coordinator for intellectual and developmental disabilities and mental health services at Providence Saint John’s Child and Family Development Center in Santa Monica, California. “When expression of anger and aggression are in response to intolerance to differing opinions, thoughts, beliefs, or points of view, ((4 x TICK!)) this is a warning sign of possible domestic violence tendencies.” Be aware of these gaslighting phrases that could raise a red flag for your relationship. ((You do the Ticks from here)) -You’re always wrong in every situation Relationships are all about compromise. When disagreeing, sometimes you will be right and other times your partner will be right. But if your partner tries to convince you that you are wrong all of the time, it’s often in an attempt to gain power and control over you and cause you to doubt yourself. “A lack of personal responsibility is a key factor in domestic violence,” says Dr. Manly. “A lack of insight and personal awareness is often an underlying issue, yet sometimes the abuser is acutely aware of the tactics being used.” ((Link to:)) Read these secrets of a happy marriage from real couples. - Your partner is extremely jealous While jealousy is a normal emotion, it becomes unhealthy when it is extreme. “When a partner tries to control you and lashes out you due to jealousy this can lead to an escalation in the future,” warns Rachel Needle, a psychologist and certified sex therapist in West Palm Beach, Florida, and co-director of Modern Sex Therapy Institutes. “If a partner becomes possessive and gets upset when you talk to or spend time with other people, makes accusations of you lying or cheating or getting too close to someone, let this be a red flag to you.”... - Your partner is an angry drunk ((i.e. not nice WHEN drunk)) Pay close attention to happens to your partner’s personality when he or she drinks. Are they a happy drunk or do they start picking fights? “If you find yourself shuddering when your partner picks up a drink, then maybe it’s time to take a look at how your partner’s behavior when they are intoxicated,” says Dr. Rahbar. “If he or she becomes violent and aggressive it is a warning sign that more is to come.”... - Your partner tries to alienate you from loved ones If your partner always seems to have a say in which close family and friends you see, how often, and for how long, ((TICK!)) this is an attempt to gain control and power over you. “Abusers often gain control in the relationship by cutting off the victim’s friendships and outside relationships,” explains Dr. Manly. “Sadly, the abused person often becomes so embarrassed that she or he will self-isolate in order to keep friends and family from learning about the destructive nature of the relationship.” ((Ergo, your decision to move-in with your folks was a self-rescuing move on your part.........WHICH SHE'S SIDE-STEPPED, NOW BLOCKED....because she knew your folks would end up throwing her out, like her ex's folks did (bet you 100 Quid!). And note: Yet HER 'folks' is allowed to decide to buy NEXT-DOOR to you!)) - Name-calling is a common occurrence Does your partner often belittle you in the form of name-calling and humiliation? ((IN FRONT OF THE FOLKS!)) These are not signs of a healthy relationship, warns Dr. Kubala. While the commentary may begin as seemingly harmless jabs or jokes, they can evolve to full-blown criticism. “If the abusive partner excuses his or her attacks as jokes and insists that you are over-sensitive, this is a sign that your comfort is not important to him or her,” she says. These compliments are actually pretty insulting. ((AND NOW THE BIGGIE)) - You’re fearful of leaving the relationship If your partner makes it difficult for you to imagine leaving the relationship because you worry that he or she will hurt themselves, it’s a warning sign of abuse. “Watch out for such statements, as they are manipulative and meant to draw on your sympathy,” says Dr. Esfahani. “Remind yourself that this individual will be able to survive without you, this is the time to be selfish.” These abusive relationship quotes will help you leave and heal... __________________________________________________________________________________________ “Remind yourself that this individual will be able to survive without you, this is the time to be selfish.” “Remind yourself that this individual will be able to survive without you, this is the time to be selfish.” “Remind yourself that this individual will be able to survive without you, this is the time to be selfish.” “Remind yourself that this individual will be able to survive without you, this is the time to be selfish.” “Remind yourself that this individual will be able to survive without you, this is the time to be selfish.” “Remind yourself that this individual will be able to survive without you, this is the time to be selfish.” The very worst thing you could be doing right now, is sinking loads of money into bloody buying a house with her. You may as well just sit on a ticking time-bomb and kick your heels against it for good measure. Talk about 'locked (in) and (no longer) loaded'. Really hope that helps. Otherwise, I'm going to have to bring my big guns out. ;)

Thank you for all the help. It is helping me I just can't seem to bring things up with anyone or her. Starting to initiate solicitors and things now. But will be months untill exchange of contracts. It's only money and in not leaving I am deciding to stay. I am just struggling to forgive the outbursts that sent me down this thought pattern. Like in Paris being shouted at for not proposing before she turnt 30.

In this situation with an emotional manipulator - failing to leave is NOT the same thing as choosing to stay. Because of aforementioned, standard feature: victim paralysis (which follows prolonged Cognitive Dissonance). Picture this: You're stood on the spot. Half of you wants to walk forwards (North), half of you wants to move in reverse (to South) OR, as in your case, stay put. A complete 50/50. What would you look like? Answer: a human rocking-chair. Going nowhere. Just rocking back and forth like a post-traumatised frontline soldier. Speaking of which... Couple of decades back, trauma experts examined the before and after photos of vietnam vets and compared them to those of victims of Domestic Abusers. The latter looked far worse....far more facially gaunt, haunted, downright ghostlike. Empty shells of their former selves. And it's been well established that post-romantic-abuse IS far worse. Because it's personal. As opposed to - no Viet Cong were deliberately singling-out one, individual soldier. So you're further-removed from the effects of the atrocities of war than you are when it's (over-convincingly) your Numero Uno...Soulmate...Kindred Spirit.. (Not). Plus, this unobvious bleedin obvious: the Viet vets were NOT for months/years beforehand, duped into believing they were being flown over to sodding Disneyland! They landed, prepared for war. You and other dom-conneds were neither expecting it nor prepared for anything like it (far more impatful shock). Can you get Andy to take you to a theme park with seriously scary rides? Or a bungee jump? Or Waterpark - Kamakazee slide? Waterskiing/Jet-skiing? Absailing down a mountain? Anything daredevilish and (safely) petrifying or at least bloody thrilling? With any luck it'll work to jolt you out of this paralysis. It's CERTAINLY worth a try. I've used it myself as well as on friends and it worked every single ingle time. Can you? Bet you haven't had a Lad's day out, the two of you, for ages, either! Am I right or am I right?

PS: "Like in Paris being shouted at for not proposing before she turnt 30" Air, Rogair....HHHHOW RRRO-MAAAN-TIIIC! (swoon) PPS: Don't fancy yours much. Your fiancee is a spoilt-baby, downright offensive, in fact, ANTISOCIAL Arsehole. She related to Kim Jong Un or is it purely a coincidence? (Hah! Do you know for a fact that 30's even her real age?!) I could go on but I'd be here all day.... unless I sum it up with: 'BANG!' (There ya go, guvnah - that'll be 50p, please?)

Also - So what ABOUT confiding in your older brother? Here - even better: invite him along with you and Andy to said theme park (followed by a pub supper, obvs...with plenty of Dutch Courage, obvs). Plan, Stan?

Thanks again. I'm going to try and speak to my brother at the weekend. Dunno if I'll be able to though.

Paying the starter money to solicitors tomorrow she is and the starter for mortgage broker.

PS: One of many comments from Quora in answer to the question, How do Narcissists respond when you give them gifts?, or, Why Narcissists never say thank-you...spoilt for choice, you'll be: https://www.quora.com/How-do-narcissists-respond-when-you-give-them-gifts Lisa Jordan · Follow Studied at New York University9mo Every time you try to make them happy, they make you feel like you're not good enough or like you don't fit with them. Let's say it's the narcissist's birthday, whether it's your dad, wife, or husband. You plan a surprise party and buy them a gift. Since it's supposed to be a surprise, you don't ask them about it. But when you give them the gift, they don't react with happiness or gratitude. Instead, they wear a poker face and show disappointment. They might say something like, "Yeah, it's okay, but I don't like it. You should have asked me before getting this gift. I've told you many times that our tastes don't match." ________________ ...Bit of an echo there, eh. Basically, put simply: That they hate to feel indebted to anyone is the common explanation, which, saying thank-you stands for, when, to their mind, no Master/Mistress is expected to ever thank their minion, their inferior 'specie'. Truth is - and you only need to imagine yourself in their shoes, behaving/failingn to behave like that and feel how you'd have to feel to do so. It's because, secretly, they hate you ...which is because secretly they resent you - as if their unimproved misery is your fault for being Shiny You - as shiny as your advert promised (unlike theirs) - and 'constantly showing them up' (as your INFERIOR actually...which of course they are, because they're not fully-formed/equipped human-beings and you are!...how verray dare hyou). What attracts them to you in the very beginning (IF any attraction/fancying happens to luckily feature - as in, just a bonus) are the very things that get switched by their base mal-programming into things they all-too-soon hhhhhhhhhhhhate you for..."cuckoo!"), meaning, as usual, you can't win....damned if you do, damned if you don't, can't do right for doing wrong. IME, I think they somehow think that if at first they stick to you like glue 24/7, study you and learn to emulate you (as well as make you miserable enough that eventually You simultaneously tantamountedly fail to exist and they 'become' you), they'll be chirpy, happy and positive like you/instead of you (cuckoo). Every single bloody Covert Malignant Narc I've ever known, has plagiarised my looks, my style, mannerisms, design ideas, parrotted me, spouted my opinions and advice back at me (as if it was their own intellectualising product (they don't care...No Shame, remember?). Whoever said mimicry was the highest form of flattery forgot to add that it's the kind that does NOT feel nice, just leaves you feeling stolen-from...mugged ("Narcissists and Misappropriation"). It's known as Malignant Identity Theft (see below by expert Shahida Arabi - in-case you've seen any of this happening over the years?). A covert will do it when with others and out of your awareness. A Narc-Spath ("No Shame") will do it in front of you, so little do they care for how you feel about anything whatsoever (bar they themselves). Anyway - you imagine a scene where, you're a narc, and your (unwitting) *arch-enemy-now-disdained-slave (who doesn't bend over backwards far enough for your liking, which fact constantly irritates you), gives you a gift... At best, you might say, "Hmm....it's not as nice as the one we saw in the window' (or some such - usually because the one in the jeweller's window was more middle-of-the-road, yet flashier-looking, thus would re-sell/be hock-able for cash far faster...ergo, god forbid you get it engraved with a personal, loving message!). Or if you simply did them a favour, to which, you yourself would say, Thanks so much!, for....buuuut...NOTHING. You have to say, 'Did you LIKE that (whatever)?', and all you get is, 'Yeah, it's good'...no apology for having 'forgotten' to acknowledge it once they'd received and unwrapped it, no 'thank-you', no 'sweet of you to think of me'... You feel like saying, 'YOU'RE WELCOME!' (wanting to add ', you rude, spoilt brat!, what world are you living in cos it clearly ain't this one?!))'. They just piss on your sweetness (when you're long-programmed and long-validated , to expect it to be reciprocated/rewarded like with NORMAL people). Ach. We've all been there. But (stupid, sarcy voice:) 'it's always all the LITTLE things like this, that mean so MUCH! :p ________________________ https://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2023/10/narcissists-steal-your-personality-according-to-expert/ "How Narcissists Steal Your Personality, According To An Expert Shahida Arabi By Shahida Arabi Updated January 16, 2024 Andrea Piacquadio Narcissists steal your words, your life stories, your interests, your style, and even your identity and personality. A researcher exposes the manipulation tactics of malignant “identity theft” and why it should never be ignored. Imagine a narcissistic or psychopathic person looking into a mirror every morning and asking, “Who should I be today?” Many survivors of narcissistic people note that they had their “identities” stolen during these exploitative relationships. Whether it was a friendship, romantic relationship, or even in the context of family and the workplace, narcissistic and psychopathic individuals can “morph” into a distorted version of you, adopting your traits, mannerisms, words, distinct sense of style, and even your life stories in an attempt to gain praise and attention they would not otherwise obtain. This can feel like an erosion and negation of the victim’s own identity. We’ve seen manipulative tactics like malignant mirroring discussed with regards to the idealization phase of a relationship with the narcissist, but what does it look like outside of it? In the beginning, the narcissist traditionally mirrors you in malignant ways to love bomb you into a relationship, friendship or business partnership; they pretend to be your soulmate, claiming to share the same hobbies, interests, goals, and characteristics as you to get you to trust them. Yet the imitation doesn’t end there nor is malignant mirroring limited to romantic relationships or love bombing. It can escalate into stalker-like, pathological behavior across different contexts. This type of “mirroring” is vastly different from interactions where we naturally mirror others due to empathy, attraction, or trying to establish a social connection – it includes a driving force of malicious envy, resentment, and trying to sabotage others or even take over their lives. Note that the “identity theft” we talk about in this article refers specifically to the mirroring behaviors and motivations of narcissistic and psychopathic individuals and does not refer to any other conditions. It should only be read in the context of emotional abuse and malicious intent. Why Malignant Identity Theft Isn’t a Compliment Thousands of survivors of narcissists have disclosed to me over the years that they feel deeply violated by the psychological identity theft they’ve experienced by narcissistic and psychopathic individuals. As survivors tell me, it can feel like getting devoured by the manipulative individual – a person who seems to follow your every move, mimicking and mirroring whatever they see to make themselves appear more interesting and palatable to other people around them while wearing your personality. We’ve all heard the common saying that “imitation” is the highest form of flattery. Yet this is a denial, invalidation and dismissal of the exploitative and abusive nature of identity theft. This is like telling the victim of a robbery, “You should be flattered they stole some of your hard-earned savings from you! They want what you have and now can pretend it is their own while benefiting from it! Now they’re off telling everyone that they worked hard for money they stole. Isn’t that a compliment?” ((I LOVE SHAHIDA SOOOOOO MUCH!...you can see why!...she 'goes there' where others don't/won't and is highly grounding.)) Let’s be clear: It is not flattering to have someone take on your personality, steal your words, labor, work, life stories, goals, dreams or sense of style ((DON'T FORGET FRIENDSHIPS, LOVERS, SPOUSES, CHILDREN, etc., if given the long-enough chance!)) to the extent narcissistic and psychopathic individuals do, especially when they are not giving you due credit or profiting off something they did not create. Through psychological identity theft and erosion, manipulators and pathological con artists can try to siphon the same attention from people they would not otherwise get by “becoming” you. They try to mimic talents and skills they do not possess, embody the energy that makes you unique and special, pursue the hobbies and interests that they have no genuine interest in and reap the benefits of a life they did not live and the labor or creativity they did not undertake. This is what makes identity theft such a disorienting and violating experience for so many. Below, you will find examples of what this identity theft can look like across various contexts. These examples highlight common scenarios based on thousands of survivor accounts. ___________________________________ Yup. Bleeeuugh. So sick. So-so-so-sick. (But what do THEY care!) However, I reiterate: Victim's problems are NEVER that they're not good or gorgeous enough. It's that they're TOO good and gorgeous! Too irresistible to a personality (and lifestyle if they can) thief. Innit. STOP THE CRAZY MERRY-GO-ROUND - by CEASING to think and JUST JUMP. Thinking....is not working for you. Try imagining ahead (MIL constantly in your house - two of them at you!) and FEELING instead: E.g...For all you know - right now, the (or one of the) intended love-of-your-life (with the equally lovely and normal parent(s)), is currently about to get free followed by grieving/detoxing herself ready........., meaning, you might miss that blissful 'bus'.

Oh sorry - crossover (had to do it in bits over a few hours!): "Thanks again. I'm going to try and speak to my brother at the weekend. Dunno if I'll be able to though." That's what booze is for. Needs Must. It's a one-off so - even if it's 9am - get some Dutch Courage down ya. And that's an order soldier. I'm sorry but I DO NOT want to be effectively tied to chair and made to watch a train-crash. And neither should you want to BE in a train-crash. There is NOTHING you can argue against any more - too much evidence from my mouth and others' mouths that show she IS a Narcissistic arsehole with an even bigger one as a mother! WOULD LIKE TO BUY THE BUNGALOW NEXT-DOOR? What - so you can pop in when she summons you over the baby-monitor to wipe her bottom every time she does a sh*t? HAH! You think I'm exaggerating? The Mini can't quite manage to tame you. So she's bringing in permanent back-up! GET IT? Two lifelong-lasting nightmares for the price of one. UNLESS it's because you DO genuinely feel that what she deserves after all she's put you through is to effectively be told by someone who now knows her enough, therefore is QUALIFIED to be believed when HE of all people, says: "Ugh, no thanks, luv!" at the alter? That's all that seems to fit with this?..........Dunno.........depends if you make the effort to speak with big bro or not, doesn't it. I mean, if you told him it was imperative and urgent and only he can help - you're not telling me he wouldn't drop everything and come running? Or Andy? Or ARE you? Sorry if that's a bit "heavy" but you obviously need it now.

"Paying the starter money to solicitors tomorrow she is and the starter for mortgage broker." Paying how? Bank Xfer? If you failed to, that might work to screech on the brakes and say it all for you?? There's no denying actions, is there. And then you could go, 'I'm sorry, but I can't do this.............I just can't.............I just CAN'T - SORRY' and get up and leave the office. And then move-in with your parents. And then write a Dear Joan. Don't worry about it. She'll have a new one before you can say, 'Aren't you even a tiny bit grief-stricken?!' Swat Narx Do (and Spaths even faster because they have raring-to-go spares in the wings, remember?).

PS: Do NOT be embarrassed that you were such a fine specimen that a human-predator-parasite wanted to hitch a ride in your life and live off your energy, because it'd be TOO RIDICULOUSLY WRONG FOR WORDS! It IS - FACT - a giant compliment. Just a perverse one. Think of it like - you're the true (everyday) celebrity with genuine (quiet) charisma ....and she's a bunny-boiling No. 1 Fan who convinced you to get into a relationship with her. Have you ever watched Misery and Fatal Attraction? Watch them again anyway. This week's homework. Look beyond the sensationalism to the obvious attitudes and thinking as drive those choices of behaviour. E.g. Fatal Attracton: spoilt little Princess, never grown up, not used to being told No. or rejected her whole childhood...will not take the hint of obviously numerous (by inference) rejections by boyfriends (and clearly has no gal friends because she's a slutty sociopath, sexually more like a man), i.e. learn to change her ways and learn to accept that if someone doesn't want you, neither should you want them. But - JeffreyDahmerItis - she wants to POSSESS him and be his BOSS...."I'm not just going to let you IGNORE ME, DAN!" (Er....Why not? Wouldn't that be the quicker, easier way to find a man who does want you? NO. Because at the same time as being mentally lazy, she has been brainwashed to believe that she is irresistible, impossible to 'win' against, and 'only wickle, so, aww, leave her alone before you make her cryyyyy, it wasn't HER fault she hit you, you shouldn't have yadder-yadder (existed!). "The Golden Child"...perhaps after a spell of having been "The Scapegoat" (which are roles, not characters, so can be done to Only Children as well). So anyway. Like I say: no need to be embarassed for having been shiny enough to attract, this case, an NSpath (again, no plain or Vulnerable malignant Covert would be so careless with the evidence as to openly DISS their fiance in front of his - or tell it like it is - TOOOOOOOOO his ....PAAAAAAAAAAAA-RENNNNNNNNNN-TZ. Never! Just wouldn't happen. And wheras plain malignant coverts do anything to AVOID facing Shame - NSpaths don't give a shite if you're already enslaved and/or they're secretly done with you and ready to lilypad-leap to the next high-energy, positive, alluring, different/'unique', etc., person....ESPECIALLY ONES THAT DON'T KNOW THEY'RE ATTRACTIIVE because, for example, they once were an ugly duckling and haven't been given their true reflection by whatever 'mirrors' for years...that sort of thing.) I think after speaking (and teaming-up, I'll bet!) with Bro, you should try to draft her an actual letter - and run it past him - or/and me, if you like. I think that's going to be the simplest and easiest way to stop this runaway train (of hers, that you're tied to). Right - night!

Oh wait! ""Paying the starter money to solicitors tomorrow she is and the starter for mortgage broker."" Oh - SHE'S paying it. Oh, well. Fine, then. Thad'll learn her in future that she can't kidnap or manhandle people to the alter, especially when they made it too clear they need to press Pause for a bit in order to even be fit to say "I will". ORRR, never to go for your 'silent but surprisingly deadly' type again, haha.

Hi again. So we have split the solicitor bills and I have not managed to speak to my brother or my mate as I left early and was not drunk enough to bring it up haha. She came out to a family day at the rugby club to watch and wants to get a new birthday bracelet tomorrow, but I don't want to get her one of those, rather get her something else due the ungratefulness. Thanks for the help

No - not BRING IT UP - RING them/one of them and explain specifically ...that you feel too ambivilant about marrying her in case you're making a huge mistake, due to her steady deterioration of behaviour into downright antisocial and coercively controlling (- you're a society of two, innit....soon to be 3 - ensure to mention!), that there's a lot more to it than you've previously indicated, and you could really do with getting last-ditch, brutally honest feedback (and the beers/Indian meal are on you). Or are you taking this long-drawn-out opportunity to Reactively-Abuse her while you still can? If that's the case, then - just say so! Don't make this so complicated and hard on yourself. You've earned it! I get it! So then - with this clearing of the motivational decks in mind.... How's abooooooout a silver wreath? Or something Gothic with horns on it? Murder Mystery Weekend? (Ha-ha!) Is it really worth all that money aka a decent retirement, though? Don't go over the part-refund deadlines, will you. With that in mind - how much, roughly, will this 'taste of own medicine' cost you?

"Or are you taking this long-drawn-out opportunity to Reactively-Abuse her while you still can? If that's the case, then - just say so! Don't make this so complicated and hard on yourself. You've earned it! I get it!" No it's not that, i'm not trying to abuse her, if ever I bring anything up it's trying to fix things and explain how I feel in those situations, which is often then responded with a criticism against me or she says she's being criticised. All this house stuff is going to cost about £1550 between us at the moment if we go for a survey soon which she is pushing for.

Just bumping you up for Saturday, bear with...

"No it's not that, i'm not trying to abuse her, if ever I bring anything up it's trying to fix things and explain how I feel in those situations, which is often then responded with a criticism against me or she says she's being criticised. All this house stuff is going to cost about £1550 between us at the moment if we go for a survey soon which she is pushing for." So, then, what you're revealing is that you're determined to fix her, refuse to believe she's irredeemable without giving it a damn good try, because you're used to being influential, making things happen and getting results? And are prepared to pay for the opportunity? Or is it that you can't face the thought of change and starting over with someone new? "All this house stuff is going to cost about £1550 between us at the moment if we go for a survey soon which she is pushing for." What the heck HASN'T this woman pushed for! Push is her middle name! PS: Cough! - meet-up with BROTHER?

"So, then, what you're revealing is that you're determined to fix her, refuse to believe she's irredeemable without giving it a damn good try, because you're used to being influential, making things happen and getting results? And are prepared to pay for the opportunity?" I wouldn't say I'm influential, not anymore, she once told me "I'm not a leader in passing" but I'd lost my confidence in that before that point. So that's not her fault, just made it worse. I am increasingly anxious about either outcomes and had a slight panic attack just now. I can't seem to bring this up with anyone. My ambivalence is killing me and is getting worse. Listened to the book again and listening to Dr ramini videos but I just keep justifying everything again and forgiving and radically accepting. She has her good qualities, which I just keep trying to focus on.

She has been much more adaptable since being at my parents house and I have said to her a few times that she wasn't/ isn't like that with just me. E.g. just accepting what's for dinner and how it's cooked, not moaned at any of my family for anything. And I'm sat there like why aren't you like this with me. Like when we were at her aunties and she immediately offered to help cook, she hasn't done that for me for years.

Away with her friend this weekend who's realasionship she doesn't like due to her partner and how he treats her. He has given her ultimatums and she doesn't like that, but I didn't bring up the obvious in that respect. He treats her terribly apparently as well, and she does do bits for me but not the things I've asked for. I just can't let go of the resentment not can I give up.

Heya! "I wouldn't say I'm influential, not anymore, she once told me "I'm not a leader in passing" but I'd lost my confidence in that before that point. So that's not her fault, just made it worse." It IS her fault. If she hadn't made it worse YOU'D BE BETTER AND BACK TO YOURSELF BY NOW (duuh?). In a relationship with an abusive dominator-coercer, 'it takes two to tango' does not apply, cannot apply, and never will. It's not two equal dance partners. It's ventriloquist and ventriloquist's dummy or organ-grinder and chimp (hence the saying, 'they made a monkey out of me')...whether you're like it or not, whether normally you're known for your strength and self-assurance or not. Poison ain't choosy, let alone discerning. Anyway. She told you that you're not a leader in passing? What does that mean? If it just meant, she commented in-passing that you're not a leader type (which is ollocks btw), and you're saying that (indeed), normally you were, then, all you're demonstrating there is how they get you/bag you - swoop - when you're down. SOMEHOW MANAGE to get you, it what it means in their case. With normal, higher confidence, etc. at the time of meeting, you probably wouldn't have given her a second date.... Not in your league. What had happened to drag you down, in the run-up to meeting her? "I am increasingly anxious about either outcomes and had a slight panic attack just now." Sh*t. This is getting serious. You'll have to make an appointment with the doctors to get given a prescription to calm you down (your 'needle's stuck' in Anxious mode, making you too close to and too apt to fall into Panic Attack territory). Don't worry about it, either; these days, they're marvellous, no side-effects and certainly no drowsiness (nor addiction). Just consider them a step-stool to give you some distance in height from that Panic Attack ledge and back up over the cliff edge onto solid ground again. THEY WORK. As a step stool. And if you ask for Europe's current No. 1 - Citalopram - they've just discovered this life-saver can also be taken like a headache pill - as and when needed - and you can also vary your dose after the first 3 months, taking only half on a really good day or adding an extra one or half on a really bad day. However, they do work best when taken daily as there's a culmative effect (and your body needs steady & reliable). (PS: If you're having Panic Attacks you'll need 10mg minimum, or if you're ina hurry, 20 and then after 3 months steadily lower down to 10...then 5...then only every other day, every third day, and so on.) (I went on them. The difference they made, starting to kick in on Day piddly 3, was beeping amazing - noticeable wasn't the word for it! I'd swear by them.) She's b*ggering-up your nervous system, basically. That's urgent, Soldier. "I can't seem to bring this up with anyone. My ambivalence is killing me and is getting worse. Listened to the book again and listening to Dr ramini videos but I just keep justifying everything again and forgiving and radically accepting. She has her good qualities, which I just keep trying to focus on." Okay. So the trouble is simply down to the fact you need more time because it's not possible for you to detach fast enough to beat the date of the wedding. Well, yes. She could sense that before now. It's why she's been going up a few gears when it comes to dragging you there AND, now, rushing you into buying a joint home - BEFORE YOU FINISH WAKING-UP AND PROPERLY COMING-TO! Understand? If Kirk is still that attached, then Spock's going to have to do it for you, via the intellectual-first route... So - okay....Big Guns time: _______________________________________________ https://www.leighdaniellaw.com/blog/spot-a-narcissist-in-a-relationship/ "...Effects of Narcissistic Abuse Individuals remaining in a relationship with a narcissist may suffer narcissistic abuse. The term refers to the emotional abuse a narcissist delivers when manipulating their marital partner. This kind of abuse often involves demeaning the target and taking away their sense of worth. Victims face immense impacts from this type of abuse, including: ***Anxiety – Narcissists are hyper-vigilant about their partners and may criticize everything. They create an atmosphere of fear that makes victims anxious. Victims may feel they can’t function without their abuser and suffer panic attacks.*** ***Depression – If anyone hears they are stupid and worthless often enough, they will start to believe it. Victims internalize this feedback and develop depression.*** ***Many also ((self-))isolate, which makes their depression worse.*** ***Loss of self – Many people leave narcissistic relationships barely remembering who they truly are in themselves or recognizing that they have value as people. Narcissists sabotage dreams and goals and leave their victims with no identity outside of their abuser. A victim often must form a new sense of self to recover.*** ***Post-traumatic stress – Narcissistic abuse puts victims on high alert. Victims may struggle with anxiety attacks and avoid certain places that bring up memories of the abuse. This constant state of “fight or flight” can result in post-traumatic stress.*** Physical symptoms – Stress often causes physical pain. Headaches and muscle aches are common. Many victims struggle with sleep, especially if their abuse((r)) uses sleep deprivation as a control mechanism. Memory loss – Fight or flight mode is tough on short-term memory. ***Victims often have trouble concentrating and focusing.*** ((the Gas incident)) Mood swings and irritability – Being questioned about everything every day affects mood. Traumatic events often leave people feeling fatigued and irritable as they question reality. ***The victim might sometimes feel emotionless or robot-like at times and hate-filled ((resentment-filled))*** or vengeful at others. People pleasing – Narcissists leave their victims hypervigilant and defensive. ***Narcissistic abuse makes the abused person place the narcissist’s needs over their own.((Remember I explained Parentification?)) A non-narcissistic partner will do anything to avoid the abuse, including things they don’t enjoy or want to do.*** (('INCLUDING THINGS THEY DON'T WANT TO DO'. My response on your behalf: Just a flippin' bit?!?!*?)) Self-destruction – Victims often lack self-forgiveness. They feel they’re to blame for the narcissist’s behavior. ***Many feel so broken down and worthless that they can’t cope.*** Many abuse victims turn to ***alcohol***, drugs, cigarettes, or even gambling, which can become addictions. It can take years to recover from narcissistic abuse. ((Not on my watch)) Meanwhile, victims face issues trusting other people and creating new relationships. ((Ditto)) Signs of Narcissistic Abuse in a Relationship Want to know how to spot a narcissist? Here are the primary signs that you are in a narcissistic relationship pattern: Gaslighting – Gaslighting is intentionally misleading people to the degree that they question reality. Victims often wonder if they’re too sensitive or apologize to their abuser, ***often for perceived slights ((or pretend-perceived))***. A narcissist is skilled at making victims feel ***unstable*** and delusional. Lack of empathy – Narcissists care about their feelings, perceptions, and goals – ***not their victim’s*** ((SHE'S MADE THAT CLEARER THAN CLEAR!). They often state that their victim’s feelings are wrong and push their self-interested interpretation onto them. ((That comment, up there, about power people.)) Sabotage – Narcissists can’t retain power if their target becomes empowered or confident. So, they will disrupt plans and interfere with success. If the abused person achieves despite the narcissist’s interference, they will ignore the abused’s accomplishments. Grandiosity – Many narcissists sincerely believe they are superior to other people. ***They leave no space for their partner and design their environment to suit their ego.*** Silent treatment – Ignoring partners is a favorite narcissist punishment. Since everything is their target’s fault, they will demand an apology – even if they are to blame. Love bombing – Love bombing is ***demonstrative attention meant to hook the victim again*** ((in her case - pretending the bad behaviour is behind you both)). It often follows substantial emotional abuse or silent treatment. ***Financial abuse – A narcissistic partner loves to dominate finances.*** They will manipulate through guilt or by spending big without consulting their partner. Many victims leaving narcissists find their abuser opened credit accounts in their name or stole their valuable property. Entitlement – Narcissists believe that everyone owes them whatever they want. When they don’t receive it, they’ll act out. Narcissists seek special treatment and often believe they are more deserving of promotions, admiration, or money than anyone else. ***Aggression – There is no fury like that of narcissists who don’t get what they want. When a person or situation challenges their sense of entitlement, or someone stands up to them, they are likely to act violently. ((Her case - still only verbally...but that's because she can tell she hasn't managed to hook or isolate you adequately)) *** Projection – Narcissists don’t take responsibility for their shortcomings. So, they project them onto others. They’ll accuse their partner of lying, cheating, or overspending when they are the ones doing those things. Narcissistic behavior in relationships grows slowly. It will start mild enough that the abused won’t recognize it. (("Narcissistic Abuse - Boiling Frog Syndrome")) The abuse ***will*** continue to escalate. ***Once it becomes severe ((or over-prolonged)), the target may feel too weak or incompetent to leave the relationship.*** A narcissist’s primary motivation is to make the target ***easier to control.*** They’ll insult the abused, ***accuse them of things they never did ((said/implied))***, and slander their target. Specific examples of narcissistic behavior in a relationship may include: Sabotaging behavior – If it’s a one-car family, they may drive their target to a job interview late. Once the target gets a job, the abuser may call them at work constantly or keep them from socializing with coworkers. Gossip – Narcissists may gossip about their target and comment on their sexuality, mental status, or perceived misbehavior. These statements are often exaggerations of the truth or completely false. Harsh words – Name-calling, biting criticism, and sarcasm are a big part of the narcissist game. For example: “Good job not emptying the dishwasher before I came home!” When the target calls them on it, they may say, “It’s just a joke.” Interference with other relationships – Narcissists often interfere with friendships and familial ties to isolate their target. ***They may insist on spending holidays ((MEALS OUT DURING VISITS)) with only their family because those individuals are more likely to appease them.*** Twisting – Narcissistic individuals excel at using their partner’s emotions against them. If the abused complain of loneliness or lack of support, the narcissist twists it to make it their victim’s fault. For example, they’re lonely because they’re a terrible partner. Limiting access to resources – Narcissists may remove their partners from bank accounts or hide keys to storage units or safety deposit boxes. Sometimes, they limit a partner’s food intake and insult their bodies. Surveillance – In some extreme examples of narcissistic abuse, a perpetrator may install surveillance cameras to ensure a partner stays home and “behaves.” They may also go through cell phones, mail, and private journals since they rarely respect boundaries. ***When tactics fail to work, narcissists play the victim card.*** ((I.e. The Pity Ploy/Play mixed with denying and blame-shifting)) They will claim the target’s shortcomings caused them to act abusive and that the target only needs to be “better.” This technique flips sympathy to the narcissist and away from their target. Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome May Deter People from Seeking Help ***Narcissistic Abuse Syndrome refers to the adverse effects of being on the receiving end of an abusive narcissist’s behavior. It is not an official diagnosis but a description of these victims’ reality.*** ***Victims may be aware of their mistreatment ((this case - pressuring you to wed and house-buy too fast for you/the reality of the relationship state and situation)) but feel hopeless about stopping it.*** They may form a trauma bond with their abuser and feel like they can’t function without them. That is often due to the narcissist’s unrelenting criticism of their partner. Victims find it challenging, if not impossible, to move on without their original sense of self-worth. ((hence, Confidence.)) ***While in the relationship, victims feel trapped and imprisoned.*** They often blame themselves for the adverse effects and strive to create an optimal environment for the narcissist. Many victims report feeling like they’re ***walking on eggshells and that the slightest misstep will set off the narcissist.*** Then they brace for another round of physical or emotional abuse. Once they leave the relationship, victims often face post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD.) ((victims without proper support, actually)) They often experience flashbacks, panic attacks, detachment, and hypervigilance. It can take years of therapy to overcome these patterns and feel safe in the world again. ((But at least it won't mean suffering for the entire rest of your life until an early grave.)) Is There Hope After Narcissistic Abuse? ((COURSE THERE IS - IT'S CALLED HEALING. Not if you run AROUND on your broken leg (date others), no, obviously not; it's either going to take longer than necessary or leave you with a permanent limp. But if you're kind and sensible to yourself, you can speed things up considerably)) Many people find recovery and hope after suffering a narcissistic abuse relationship. It can take some work, but the result is worth it. ((It definitely is.)) ((continues...)) _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ And now, since the clock's ticking again - the nuclear warhead that is Jennifer Smith: Extracts from her site, True Love Scam (read Left-to-Right, Top-to-Bottom, from her top banner of pull-down menus). The following are quite mild for her, compared to all her other articles (she's far harder hitting than Myra; no doubt because she's been where you are): 1. https://www.truelovescam.com/sociopath-effect-power-influence/ "The Sociopath Effect: Power of Influence ...People Who Have Not Had This Experience Have No Clue Unless someone has had this experience they can’t understand this. The best many people around us can do is conclude that this happened because we’re 1) codependent, 2) stupid, 3) missed red flags, 4) were in denial, 5) have low self-esteem, 6) don’t know how to pick boyfriends, 6) are attracted to losers, 7) like bad-boys, 8) are idiots, 9) need help, 10) toxic people magnets, 11) like drama, 12) should have known better. And now that it’s ended and we’re a mess, that we’re: 13) crazy, 14) depressed, 15) suicidal, 16) were the problem, 17) are stalking them, 18) can’t move on, 19) need to let it go, 20) are ruminating, 21) are obsessed, 22) need Xanax or anti-depressants, 23) should start dating someone else to forget them, 24) are nuts, 25) have changed, 26) are no fun anymore. We’ve been put through changes, and at the moment we might not be much fun, but none of the rest of those things are true. Not one of them. Nothing from numbers 1 through 24 is why this happened, or what we now are. Be Sure There is None of the Above Malarkey is Put On Upon Us by Ourselves We cannot take responsibility for the inhumanity of a sociopath or narcissistic user. There’s nothing about us that gives them permission to use us, deceive, lie, steal, take from us, smear us, or destroy us. Nothing about us made them what they are. We can’t do could not have said or done anything that would change what they are. Our right to be who we are is unalienable; we have every right to be just as we are; normal, perfectly imperfect, gorgeous humans. We are not “co-dependent”: This is accusatory and “blame the victim” language. They are 100% dependent. Sociopaths need us for legitimacy and all elements of their survival. We aren’t lacking boundaries: We’re engaged in normal human relationship building. They have zero boundaries. Zero limits. They have no – none – zero “stops” on anything they will do, or try in their continued pursuit of survival as defrauding parasites. ((WARNING: AS PER THE USUAL PLAYBOOK: THE FEMALE NARC-SPATH IN THIS SITUATION AIMS TO TOO-RAPIDLY FIND AN EXCUSE TO DIVORCE YOU, HAVING WHOOPS-GOT PREGNANT (as the test-run heavily indicates) SO AS TO GET AWARDED THE HOUSE - or their half in cash and sod the court's order to use x percentage of it to rent or buy.)) Our Own Normal Human Feelings Lead Away Us From the Truth Often while we’re caught up in being normal humans (imagine that) and having “feelings” in response to what they’re doing in a certain moment, we’re off track. As our feelings then naturally turn to a thought, and then a belief, and then these thoughts and beliefs lead us to other conclusions about this moment, and about other scenarios with them, we are way, way, way off track. And the sociopath profoundly benefits from our not finding the correct track or the accurate way to view what’s truly going on. While we’re busy feeling bad about something they’ve done or not done or said or not said to us, a hot-mix of feeling ashamed, embarrassed, sad, vulnerable, self-conscious, discarded, treated badly, abused rushes through us. All mistaken as far as understanding what’s really going on. All inaccurate because he’s not – or she’s not – what we think they are or motivated by our specific feelings. He’s a sociopath deliberately using and taking advantage. He knows what he is. Feelings Turn to Thoughts Which Become Beliefs Our feelings are inspired by the narcissistic users’ callous and careless behavior; their neglect or broken promises and lies turn to thoughts and then beliefs about ourselves, our life, our value, and about the “relationship” This can feed into feelings of low self-esteem, or a belief we aren’t “good enough”; all from misinterpreting the dynamic between “normal” and “sociopath”. And low self-esteem or not, in no way, does any amount of “low self-esteem”, depression, or anything else about us gives anyone permission to defraud, con, assault, use, coerce, steal, or take from us, or any one-drop of the rest of the sickening things they do to others. Our Normal is Bent to the Agent of Their Evil With the combined sociopath effect phenomenon, and our normal-human characteristics, and beliefs we already carry they slide into a position of power and influence above ourselves. All normal under the sociopath effect. There’s a day the sociopath expects from the first “hello”. The day when enough “weird”, enough lying, enough confusion, and glimpses of their lack of care is revealed so that we pull back, and roll up the red carpet of normal relationship-building. The day they fail and bail. We were not loved and then betrayed, but ensnared, deceived, and used. We were never devalued and discarded. Discovering how to see the real truth is essential for healing. A voyage of crossfading misinformation, pain, self-doubt, and all the other soup of trauma and PTSD for the truth. Decode. Reframe the nightmare. Be free. _______________________________________________ 2. https://www.truelovescam.com/5-stages-of-true-love-scam/ "5 Stages of True Love Scam We think it’s love but fall into a world of hell. A hell that for all its pain, we can recover from. True love scam as a reality – beyond scary movies and television shows – is coming into focus like never before. How bizarre it feels to know something’s wrong, something needs to be fixed but you can’t pinpoint what it is or name it. Finding yourself in a relationship nightmare as I did in 2012, you likely whipped out your laptop or smartphone to google away for answers. This search for information begins for most of us when you’re feeling that something’s wrong, yet you can’t put your finger on it, and nothing you do changes it, or makes things better. True Love Or True Love Scam True love scam is a nightmare of epic proportions. It starts out feeling magic, even beyond normal relationships. This is an occurrence that brings pain and loads of confusion. It’s an event that comes to light slowly as we’re in what we think is a true love relationship only to discover it isn’t. Realizing this is hard. Truly taking in what this is will likely be the hardest thing you’ve ever done. That’s okay. You’re now in a great place to find answers and to know that you’re not alone. – Many people from all over the planet are reading this just as you are. And once you get this sorted, the potential to be user-proof forever is here. Think of a true love scam as a hijacking; a deliberate invasion and infiltration by a parasite. Every parasite needs a host who knows nothing of its presence to survive. This weird dynamic happens, in the same way, each and every time. – Let’s take a look at the phases of a true love scam. True Love Scam: Stages One Through Five Catch Our Eye: Assess Contact: Win Trust and Empathy Bait and Hook: Take and Use Take and Use More Fail and Bail and Smear Catch Our Eye: Assess The first thing that happens is that we notice that someone notices us. Maybe this happens online, on a dating app, at a party, or through a friend. Could be a work colleague, or classmate. There’s also the built-in romance of an old friend reaching out. In this first moment of introduction, the user does an assessment; a rapid-fire intake of who we are as potential prey. It’s here and in this split second of sizing us up that the sociopath aka narcissist feels out how to get a foot stuck into the door of our life. *****If we happen to have unresolved trauma from other similar life invasions, they’re delighted because they know we’re still spun out. They smell that we don’t understand what happened. – Well, all of that is changing here and now.***** Contact: Win Trust and Empathy As normal people, when we meet a new person, we want to be pleasant and leave it at that. Friendships and romance with normal people go at an easy pace and blossom naturally with mutual interest and effort on both sides. From this devious parasitic predator’s side, they know something that we do not. They know that they desire to get into our lives to take and use as much as they can before they exit. They know that exiting does not mean they won’t want to come back for more. *****They must work quickly to get in, to hook us hard so that they can make use of us, and then to get out before we see or know too much that could tear their house-of-cards life apart.***** True Love Scam: Contact Required During initial contact and over the next few weeks the predator pays close attention to us. This can be called the love-bombing phase. It can be thought of as the grooming phase as well. They seem laser-locked in genuine interest in us and we find them fascinating. We’re enamored. We feel we’ve met the most incredible human on the planet. We’d never imagined that this kind of person could exist. True Love Scam: The “Courtship” Dance Throughout these early days, they’ve told us quite a bit about themselves. It will more than likely include: Compliment us Talk of their many accomplishments or plans A story of something going wrong because of someone else More talk about the great things they’ve done Their dream of an amazing future that we fit so well A sob story of being victimized or cheated Talking semi-badly to very badly about an ex Murmurings of childhood abuse The First Stage of a Love Scam The first sign that we’re headed for a nightmare is found within our emotional reaction to them. The thing is, as normal humans, we don’t realize this is happening… Or that what is happening inside us signals this. When we encounter one of these creatures and we “like” something – anything – about them, we’re hooked. We enter into a spellbound altered state. There’s a sense of being elevated into another dimension. We’re excited, almost in a cliched state of breathlessness. On the hot air of their rather banal or odd compliments float us into another realm. Compliments from a predator range from the quite generic, you’re hot. Odd such as, yah, this will work. Or can be “profound” such as I feel like I’ve known you forever. We’re Tossed Into an Altered State As we all know on an intellectual level, no one lasts long if they’re breathless. In this alternate universe we’ve immediately been catapulted into, we believe every word they say even though a lot of what they say doesn’t make perfect sense. Our mind busily makes sense of what doesn’t make sense. – This is normal when we meet a predator. And normal humans need things to make sense. It’s natural to make sense out of things that don’t make sense. This natural human quality is – as are all our natural human qualities – bent to the sociopath’s purpose without any effort on their part, and without our conscious awareness of it or control over it. This is the effect of the sociopath, it’s what we call coercive control. – The realities of coercive control are invisible and subtle. Coercive control isn’t initiated at that obvious threat, if you don’t do such-and-such, I’ll break your arm, nor at, if you do such-and-such, I’ll put those naked photos of you online. However, those threats might come later. Bait and Hook: Take and Use To the sociopath (aka the “narcissist”), we’re an animated object, a natural resource to serve their purpose – or not. Their desire – their need – is to first hook us into action with hints of what they need and want... ((continues)) _______________________________________________ 3. https://www.truelovescam.com/3-dangers-of-female-sociopaths/ "3 Dangers of Female Sociopaths" 4 Replies "Female sociopaths exist. Big time. In their empty souls they’re the same as any sociopath. They do use feminine charm to take and to ruin. Female sociopaths aka narcissists and male sociopaths possess the same malfunctioning brain that leaves their hearts barren. They have no love, no genuine care or concern for anyone besides themselves. It’s a reality, no matter what century we’re in, no matter the culture, though in some cultures far more than others that we expect women to be loving and nurturing mothers and loyal and monogamous and assume they are. The unexpectedness of encountering a woman who is the antithesis of all this to the point of bare evil is traumatic. It sends us spinning into a prolonged state of disbelief. To be fair, encountering any sociopath is traumatic: even when we don’t know that they’re a sociopath. There is undeniably an extra jolt when we do realize the person in front of us is a sociopath and female. This natural and normal disbelief on our part, buys them further time to wreak havoc in the lives of their prey. That expectation of women beign sweet and lovig and sugar and spice is used as a tool by female sociopaths. Let me give a shout out to what’s real: most women are nurturing and loving. And – news flash – so are most men. Normal Sees the World Through Normal: That’s Normal The gorgeous humans, who fall into the traps of a sociopath aka who fall into the traps of a narcissist, are some of the most amazing humans on the planet. The men who fall into this hell are incredible – as are the women… this though, is a case for so many of us who feel “there are no good men out there“. I’m here to tell you that there are. There are indeed good men. The one’s who I work with in recovery sessions blow me away with their kindness, their pride in monogamy, their respect for women, and their huge hearts. Good men exist – and the female sociopaths who prey upon them count upon this goodness to twist them around. – This is how every sociopath works. Our normal, our innate goodness and human qualites are snatched up and used to swing us like a cat by its tail. Are There Really Female Sociopaths? Female sociopaths aka female narcissists exist. They’re identical to male sociopaths in their empty souls and evil guts. For them, using feminine charm and lurid sexuality to take and to ruin is fair play. Depending upon our assumptions about what it means to be female, we’re possibly in for a harder and darker ride. Sociopaths aka narcissists exist in every gender, in every social or economic class. You can find them in any religion, at a University, in any bar, in the laundromat, and at a wine tasting. Fraudsters comprise about 95% of the profiles on dating apps which are absolutely packed with them. They can be – and are – anywhere and in every walk of life. Some of them even pose as people trying to help the prey of sociopaths to heal and recover. – They’re liars... ...3 Dangers of Female Sociopaths aka Female Narcissists Being female gives the female sociopath aka the female narcissist an extra special bit of opportunity to make use of others. Marriage: Community property and access to monetary support and property Pregnancy: Life long financal support and open predatory access to you Criminal charges: Domestic abuse, and rape Why Do Female Sociopaths Marry? Female sociopaths marry in order to gain financially or socially, to obtain possessions or respectability – only. There’s no love involved. They sign up with the intention of being supported by their spouse while they do whatever they like including still preying upon other men (or women). *************As the predators they are, the female sociopath will push so hard for marriage they’ve been known to buy their own engagement rings. Divorce is usually the ultimate goal; ideally, this brings high alimony, a big settlement, or property.************** ((HER AGENDA IS TOO FECKING OBVIOUS NOW.)) Traditional Gender Roles Tip Into the Female Sociopath’s Hand Being 100% supported financially by their male prey is a go-to for female sociopaths; they do hit the jack-pot fairly readily with this one sliding right into this traditional relationship dynamic. All the while they’re sleeping with a whole team, a fleet, a crew, a slew of other men, women or both just as male sociopaths do. Please, see a doctor and have STD tests done. Female sociopaths are just as evil as male sociopaths. There’s no sugar and spice to be found inside the outwardly female pathological user. More to Know: Yes, there are both male and female sociopaths. Sociopaths present themselves to the world mainly as their obvious biological gender, but are in fact something we could only call, genderless. Read more about the genderless nature of sociopaths here: Sociopaths Sexual Boundaries. Pregnancy: a Smoke Screen for “Normal” Unexpected or not, pregnancy can bring the sweet scent of “normal” and more importantly big bucks for years and years to a female sociopath. And guess what, it doesn’t matter if she has this innocent child with a male or female target. Women of antisocial personality disorder, ASPD – also many times called narcissists and thoght to be NPD, have fewer children than male sociopaths. The male sociopath aka narcissist populates the earth indiscriminately with many children that they leave by the wayside. Female sociopaths want to bear children in limited quantities for some pretty basic reasons: The annoyance of pregnancy; it puts a damper on scamming Pregnancy makes changes in their looks perceived to reduce their seductiveness Children are not genuinely wanted and are not loved; they are a meal ticket Every Sociopath aka Narcissist Cares Only About Personal Gain Aside from possessing a child creating the necessary public persona of “normal”, female sociopaths have children for these other reasons: money, money, and money. Once a child is on the scene they can legitimately demand support and whether married or not, they take men to court to get it. In marriage and in divorce this plot includes taking your property. Unwanted and surprise pregnancies or coerced “plans” for children all have the same motivation and result. Poking holes into condoms and lies about birth control or infertility are basic for a sociopath. If you have children with a female sociopath, consider DNA testing the babies. The results might not change your feelings for the children, but they can absolutely change court orders. Children can bring big-bank to the female sociopath, and while you may be willing to voluntarily support financially in some way, the court-ordered maintenance is extortion when the pregnancy is a surprise, or attributed to the wrong man. Domestic Violence: Staged, Forced, and Faked to Cry “Victim” Female sociopaths commonly create a wife-beater scenario. It dovetails with the sociopath’s need to seem like the victim, and further this is a style of self-defense as is any kind of smear campaign. In this kind of attack the sociopath – male or female or any gender – is attempting to make their case for this so that their story is the one that is believed and the focus is shifted to their prey – that is to you – as the wrongdoer Self-Harm to Blame You They do this in two ways. She will become violent to incite a response of violence. By hitting first, the hope is that the man – or woman – will hit them back. If this doesn’t work, they have other options. Female sociopaths aka narcissists are known to inflict self-injury and claim that you did it to them…they could throw themselves into the edge of the coffee table. Bang their heads on the shower wall. Smash their own arms with a hammer… Blacken and bruise their own body and legs. They might call the cops at the moment of beating themselves up or instead they take pictures of the blood and bruises, then later file police reports of abuse based on this craziness. – Each of these examples is a situation I’ve seen. ((Me too! I don't, however, agree that Narcissists (NPD) and Sociopaths (AsPD) are one and the same; they're too separate disorders, e.g. you can be a Sociopath without being a Narcissist and vice-versa).) But I think I'm safe in saying that's the only thing I disagree over.)) Claim Rape to Set Themselves Free It is not at all beyond the female sociopath aka narcissist to claim rape. This makes staying away from them crucial. Keeping them away from your home, and not going to theirs is critical. If this is a co-worker, never be alone with them in an office or other room at your place of work. If this is unavoidable, leave the doors open. Not meeting anywhere at all becomes serious for you as prey when the sociopath is ramping up into trying to subdue you. this occurs as they begin to see you as a threat to their own facade and freedom. If they sense you will possibly reveal them publically or to authorities as the wrongdoer expect some kind of deep smear. This is how they protect themselves, by weaving this kind of false and fraudulent set-up, putting you in the guilty seat. Protect Yourself from Court and Jail There are, unfortunately, restraining orders, and wins in domestic violence, or rape charge legal battles based on false allegations staged by female sociopaths. – Take the prospect of court or legal charges seriously. Find out how to position yourself to win against false claims. Save every email, every text, and SMS. These can become proof of their lies. Do not respond to them. Go no contact and keep no contact as the only real protection against this. No contact is life-saving. _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Lastly but not leastly: If you can't 'find it in you to raise it with anyone', then, wait until you and the lad(s) are sat at the Indian Restaurant table with you and let it happen organically, once the topic naturally, inevitably comes up, immediately showing them you're eager to hear their opinions and advice. Or send your brother and/or Andy - or both! - an email? Or WhatsApp voice message? PS: why won't you tell me why you can't tell your Mum? That...is DEFINITELY what Mums are for. PPS: There's another possibility: do you suppose somewhere inside you, you WANT to be in elder brother's boat?....perhaps to have something major in-common so as to get closer to him again/for-once??

"She has been much more adaptable since being at my parents house and I have said to her a few times that she wasn't/ isn't like that with just me. E.g. just accepting what's for dinner and how it's cooked, not moaned at any of my family for anything." Well, of course not! An abuser doesn't want the abusee's parents knowing, do they. "And I'm sat there like why aren't you like this with me. Like when we were at her aunties and she immediately offered to help cook, she hasn't done that for me for years." Sat there like? You mean - sat, thinking? She's a Giant Covert - a Sociopath with Narcissism in hunting/gaining mode (skulking in the long grass and bushes, readying to pounce). They keep their bullying ways AWAY from ALL witnesses and would-be supporters. She's contriving good behaviour to pretend it's her default SO THAT, if ever you try to confide in any of these 'witnesses', they won't know what you're talking about because what they saw was nothing abnormal, and she was really quite sweet and charming yadder-yadder, ....thefcknfake. They're all superb actors, remember? They just don't want to make it their job. They've already got a job. YOU. (Company Takeover followed asap by Liquidation.) Well, anyway, if this is the precise resentment you say you can't rid yourself of - I'm not bloody surprised! You're not superhuman, you're human! You can't forgive someone for doing/being something if they act like they'd rather stick needles in their eyes than sort it out whereby it won't happen again. They LIKE things the way they are (master-servant) and don't WANT anything to change. That you don't like it means diddly squat to them. You don't matter. Mate, YOU can't get rid of that wholly natural and healthy resentment. SHE has to. By behaving normally - with YOU...basically NOT being a Narc-Spath. And there's your whole problem: HOW! It does show you beyond any shadow of doubt now, however, that she is perfectly in-control of how she is and behaves with exclusively you....that she chooses to behave and act that way. So, in fact, I imagine your prior-mentioned resentment has GROWN because of this. Correct? Malignant narcs always treat people out-of-doors far better than 'them indoors'. Remember, you're her secret, private toilet. If she pukes her constant build-up of toxins into you before socialising, she can manage not to puke in front of 'them outdoors' (and avoid ruining her reputation as a decent-normal). At the moment she's holding it in. I wonder how long she can last... Maybe do yourself a favour and avoid being alone indoors or outdoors (or any doors) with her as much as possible, so that she does't have a toilet, meaning, at the slightest provocation, no matter where she is, she'll go BLEEEEAAAGHCH all over the walls, floor and surrounding faces. That'd save you a job, eh! It might in fact be a real game-saver if you buy a nannycam with pinhole camera...ready for whenever...maybe voice or motion activated. A picture - particularly a Talkie - paints a thousand words, eh, and would do all the explaining for you. Can you afford one/two? Living and bedroom. Perhaps a third in the car? Or just set up your phone so that you can at any time, instantly and surreptitiously press Record? ...Get some actual, live evidence. Then you won't need to 'raise' anything. You can just sit down with them and press Play....and then at the end, go, 'Whaddaya think?'.

So anyway... " and I have said to her a few times that she wasn't/ isn't like that with just me." What did she respond with?

BTW, I didn't realise you'd already gone ahead and moved-in with your folks. This changes things. Means you have even MORE power because, now you have a safetynet - and she doesn't! Not until that Sales Contract is signed and (if you don't mind thereafter losing the deposit) the keys handed over to you. Her own safety-net, come, puke holder-in, is obvious that now visible light at the end of the normal behaviour tunnel. Why don't you throw a spanner in the works to threaten it? That would do it, I reckon, make her mask fall off as she projectile pukes due to forgetting herself and who's with you both, in her overwhelming Narc Injury into Rage? Again, I really need to know why you can't discuss this alone with your folks, since now they're right in front of you on a daily basis?

So did you get her new replacement bracelet? Or did you plump for a diamond-encrusted muzzle? (WE wish!) Well, anyway. Regardless. Cease panicking for nothing. There are still plenty of emergency exit doors ahead on that path. You obviously DON'T care about the money. Or not enough to stop you, that's for sure. But, hell, it'd be money well spent to get her to the point where she either explodes in fury like a fishwife of a man-come-spoiled 5-year-old. You'd certainly be better educated and eyes-wide-open than your brother.oh...............is that a Ping I see before me? Do you want to sample properly for yourself (do-er, not studier) so you can rescue your brother???? Is that was this is? I mean - perfectly understandable and universally common.... But is it?

Sorry - typo - should be: ...where she either explodes in fury like a fishwife of a man-come-spoiled 5-year-old OR just rips off the mask the minute you two are over the new threshold (that happens, you'd be surprised), whereby you finally feel completely, irrefutably justified, and yell - ANNUL, ANNUL - OUT, DAMN SPOTTY DOG!

She's doomed whichever way you look at this. Because of how you feel. Which she point-blank refuses to acknowledge, beg forgiveness for and fix for-good. She's back to - the minute you politely try to lodge a constructive complaint/criticism, she pretends you're picking on her, mew-mew, screechy violin music. What would be a dealbreaker for HER, do you think?

Last one and then it's beddybyes (slept in too late after a late night out, now can't sleep but I see it's ruddy morning already). Next is poor Curly (have you read? - if not - DO!). "Away with her friend this weekend who's realasionship she doesn't like due to her partner and how he treats her." Which is...? "He has given her ultimatums and she doesn't like that," You mean, your fiancee don't like it? " but I didn't bring up the obvious in that respect." What - her gross hypocrisy, you mean - because she does it to you but that's somehow okay? "He treats her terribly apparently as well, and she does do bits for me but not the things I've asked for." Oh, REALLY. I would LOVE to hear this crackpot's idea of his treating her 'friend' terribly. Sorry - was that last bit meant to be a separate sentance, to mean, Fiance does do bits for you but of her choosing and bugger what you've indicated you want/need? If so - THAT'D BE RIGHT! "I just can't let go of the resentment ((nor)) can I give up." Well, to be honest, neither can I now (I'm feeling it vicarously). I kind of want her to throw a massive tantrum and projectile vomit everywhere, so that you can go - LOOK - SEE?...SEE??...SHE'S A MONSTER IN A DRESS! (Does that make you and I naughty or just human? (ish, in my case).). No,....I just think it's what we are born to expect. That what goes up must come down...and what gets held in for too long must burst out. You could put Itching Powder in her underwear? That would be naughty. Or would it, since that's the least she deserves. I repeat, it's too obvious that she's a female gigalo....which would explain how she has more disposable income than you. (Or is it all just credit-card debt mounting up and she's been lying? You do know you're entitled to see her bank and credit-card statements before you tie the knot? After all, you're joining debts, too. I'd say that's imperative for any Intendeds.

PS: if it's not rescuing your brother - or not entirely - then it has to be mainly this, still (not enough time to detach to where you can call it off): "The unexpectedness of encountering a woman who is the antithesis of all this to the point of bare evil is traumatic. It sends us spinning into a prolonged state of disbelief. To be fair, encountering any sociopath is traumatic: even when we don’t know that they’re a sociopath. There is undeniably an extra jolt when we do realize the person in front of us is a sociopath and female. This natural and normal disbelief on our part, buys them further time to wreak havoc in the lives of their prey". Questions: Have you never met/got involved with a mentally iffy person before this one? Would you say your mother and/or father is/are neglectful, mostly disinterested, over-cool and -formal?

And now the biggest guns... (Brace-Brace-Brace!)... 1. FULL Documentary - My Wife, My Abuser: The Secret Footage 2024: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CseS2SwEYT8 2. Peaceful Husband Secretly Records Coercive and Controlling Wife | Sheree Spencer Case Analysis Dr Todd Grande: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBTy-cl8KGA (Summary first - analysis/his theory begins at 7:38/39) Mine is: Not getting, or refusing to get, angry when oh-so provoked, to them means you've let them get away with it/they've got away with it (means no consequence for them, just lots for you, welfare-wise) means the 'monster is getting fed' too much (while you're getting starved too much) means, cowardly monster is as cowardly monster does (behind closed doors). You have to DEAL with it - properly, with, finally, a 'f*ckit!' attitude towards those things you've been thinking you couldn't end it because-of and/or what you'd lose and miss (which is akin to Stockholm Syndrome anyway - underneath all those survivalist mechanisms, no victim LIKES their abuser - fact) - or you leave and go No Contact. Nothing in between, works, I'm afraid. Even not having left them all those times before - that counts as a banquet for them! His refusing to ever give an anger response meant she felt SAFE to keep ON and ON mistreating into abusing into outright bullying him, even for sport! AND right in front of their kids, to 'recruit' them as future bully minions to keep keeping him down *for* her. :( And as we see with yours, too - even aside from everything else anti-relationship she is/says/does - she is GOBSMACKINGLY cocky! And that's putting it mildly. I see a heck of a lot of parallels (from 7:38 onwards) with your situation. Including - trying to make him feel petty for complaining/raising and that, by doing so, it was him attacking HER (ringing any pairs of deafening bells?). And that's simply and 'yawningly' because - it's the same incurable socio-psychological illness and these people are just its SYMPTOM. (Sense?) Don't marry an aggressive, over-entitled, you-envying/hating nutter because it WILL end and it will not end WELL. You're home. So you're safe. You have somewhere to live 'if/when'. It may be Last Chance Saloon but you're in a superb position and location. Furthermore, the fact she'd so soon in - or without a safety-net at the ready yet - insult and humiliate you in front of your folks is too strong an indication that this one, once she gets into a position of SAFETY, has it in her to start adding violence, as well as start (her and her mother) to dominate all three of you! They go slowly-slowly...holding back true colours and intensities....until they get what they consider, a Green Light. Hence this one started off just fine, then okayish, then not okay, etc. The AMOUNT of bruises on him... Speechless. You have kids with them and things get ten times worse. Anyhoo...give that a good once or twice-over and let me know your thoughts/feelings. PS: In fact, the very first thing It abused was Its biological gender status and roles (woman, wife, mother). Using that as Its Ace Card to make him feel that escape would mean losing his kids (and family featuring what at first looked and sounded like a mother). PPS: Narc mothers are bad enough but Narc-Socopathic ones are literally the worst and (again, because by then they're safe) definitely do the worst damage to kids.

Hello ABCD123 I've been reading through the forum threads. Now I feel like a big sook for mine. Your thread made me stop dead in my tracks. I was reading through the responses when I noted your partner's behaviour is exactly what living with my Mother was like. If in doubt then don't. Easy to get into marriage but excessively difficult to get out of. Harder still to get over the emotional damage it leaves behind. It has taken me a long time to realise that life is too short. Don't waste it on an un deserving soul. Love should make you feel really good. Not worried. Not fearful of the future. There should be no dread nor feeling under pressure when it comes to getting married. Big Warning Bells. Life is such a hard journey so choose wisely a person who woman who will have your back. You need to feel the love and know it is real. Not forced nor under conditions. I had a Narcissist Sociopath Mother. The damage is lasting and life long. It will impact the way you see people and turn life from an enjoyable journey into a living hell. There is no real recovery ever. You try to get over it, pick yourself up, move on, struggle to get past it but the memories and visions in your head unfortunately haunt you forever. Looking back is like watching horror films back to back. Life is not a toy. It is not an etch a sketch. Do you know those? You can't shake it off the screen nor wipe it clean.

Thank you, both, and Hi and thank you Livetotell for your comments. Can I ask if there are any examples of your mum and why this stopped you dead in your tracks? I have watched that documentary with her and we were both disgusted by it and she was witnessed domestic abuse in the past as a kid. But I cannot see my situation getting that bad, even though I am not able to call it all of and are still sat in complete ambivalence. All day I ruminate on the things she has done in the past/ promises not kept, and just see them happening in future and or getting worse but when I get home and when I talk to her I feel more relaxed and think, maybe it could work and just go in complete reverse. I have 3 weeks until more wedding money needs to be paid, the house is going through and when she called today I had a massive swelling of anxiety when she asked about wedding planning this evening as we a year out and not done anything. Last week she called upset saying that she has barely seen me since moving in with my folks and we haven't had much time together. She also said she was overwhelmed as she has taken all the house stuff on as I just don't have time. We spent a lot more time together since and she has now started playing tennis with me and her friends, separately. She's made comments about my dad and I have noticed there are similar patterns in how my folks are with each other how her folks are with each other and how we are, with a few gender swaps in there. She has made comments about some stuff my dad has done (which I agree with mind), which then I feel gives me a window to bring up worries about her mum which I did, even if it feels tit for that, but I can't remember if she agreed or just said nah my mum would never do that.

I just keep justifying everything

I’m Back. Sorry , does ABCD’s have a title. I’m struggling to find it 🙈. Thank you

Does mine have a tittle? She asked me yesterday if I actually want to get married as I never bring it up or feel excited whilst we were wedding planning. We are a year out and not done much cause of our conversations in the past and especially april. I said yes and kept reassuring her, then just full reverse in my head and keep remembering all the above issues. She bought up the bracelet thing the other day and I said I was gunna get her something else but didn't have the stomach to say why, cause I felt she was ungrateful. Barely slept all night and kept looking to her in the night to help my anxiety which she is great at, she is really good at picking me up, but I don't think she realises that a lot of what she does causes me to get like that. Under a lot of financial pressure at the moment too. Which doesn't help. But she is really good with that too and shows that we'll be ok and doesn't expect me to pay more if she wants more.

"Does mine have a tittle?" Hahahaha - Lisa didn't realise she was 'in your room' already when she typed that, she thought she was in hers! I've enlightened her back on her own thread ("Mother in law anxiety") and given her the pasted link to just click whenever she wants to read or contribute. Here's her own thread link so that you two can compare notes or just keep updated for passive comparisons. I think it would do you good - as well as LiveToTell's, if you like, to see her 'lovely' sister and daughter in action, whom are presumably far more overtly aggressive and potty-mouthed in their antagonism than your fiancee, who's gobsmackingly pushy yet always on the constant defensive ("Vulnerable"), looking for insults ergo reading them where there aren't any), IMO, making fiancee closer in style, MOST of the time, to Lisa's Smother-in-law. You might disagree?): https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13763/mother-in-law-anxiety Ignoring the potty-mouthed-ness of LTT's two - they still all three share the same over-entitlement (helping themselves), over-reacting to innocence/very little, as an excuse to abuse, then blame-shifting to distract/dis-arm, thereby avoid the consequences for such. Aaanyway - back to Toi... Your feet 'is' all I'm interested in and should be all you're interested in, too. They're the only genuine, reliable indicator: They are still walking towards that aisle. End-Of. You even admit you (rightfully and perfectly healthily) have banked-up resentment...that (and because) she won't let or help you dissolve, despite her onus and duty, when, it has no-where to go, nor *should* be instead taken. It's her banked-up Consequences, you see. It's her 'bar Tab' and it has to be paid. Next: As Manalone pointed out: this resentment - and obvious censoring of you - is to a degree whereby it tends to obliterate the effect and once-significance of her Good Side. So you can't blame her good side for the reason you won't stop the train (scuse pun). I'm saying, good points - their "good side" - never helps save the relationship. Because you know it can't be, and know it's perfectly possible to have that good side AND a normal, far-milder, altogether reasonable, rational, plain Negative (rather than "Bad/Dark") side. AND no MIL From Hell - CERTAINLY not living next-door to you! ...Meaning - so - whether it's ever genuine or constantly put-on - it's sadly immaterial. No match for the effects/significance of her bad (AND, under that - dark!) side. She herself should have been the one replying: Think again, Mother - you are NOT moving next-door to us and that is that...don't be so silly, good god, never heard anything so ridiculous in my life! (etc.). Her mother's going to be her bouncer, and she likes that idea because, thus far she's realised, she, alone, can't grapple you to the floor and keep you there, she needs 'Fat Mamma' to help sit on you. Because she needs/wants that house! And that Spousal Maintenance. Hell, she could have a lover waiting in the wings to take your place in it for all you know. Why would you put her past that, given the mother-living-next-door acceptance? And she already knows she's unlikely to be arsed to look after a baby - hence the statement about intending to heavily-heavily delegate. (Her monstrous mother created a monster that (beta challenges alpha) grew up to become the boss of the pair, and undoubtedly dislikes you simply because her daughter was the whole time smearing you.) SO, with the indisputable evidence - that no matter the panicking/worrying Conscious You is doing, Inner Animal is hell-bent on telling her - or showing her - how you and he really feel about her. And obviously inner animal isn't aware of the concept of money any more than he is of that of contraception. It just wants to teach her an overdue lesson (since her own mother's incapable)- The only question-mark is - for what purpose? Menu: A. Make her hit rock-bottom so's to finally admit she has a problem and go and get cured or bettered for your sake and everyone's. B. Blast off her mask for all to see so that you can't be mistaken for the baddie. Like Charles (Hugh Grant) did, in "Four Weddings..." to Duckface. And why not, when she'd been making his life hell during AND years after their fauxlationship. And for what? Because he dared to end them - despite it's his right plus what anyone has to EXPECT might happen at some point, as it does the world over? It's fair enough, IOW. But not for slaves/possessions, it's not. Only THE NARC can call the relationship Over. So then...Which out of those two - as you've already proven is the case - is it? Or is it however-much of both? Have you read Curly's thread yet? THAT'S the thread you ought read first (isn't long, still ongoing). Who said that victims have to be mild-mannered and helpless? I repeat: no-one sane and with any indepth experience thus full understanding gives a fig HOW you unpick those shackles and leg it the hell out of the torture-chamber. My attitude is: She shoulda thoughta that before she (abcdefghi....tuvwxyz)-ed, shouldn't she. CONSEQUENCES. And a human-baked custard pie isn't all that grave a punishment, actually. If you buy a house with her then how on earth would you be capable of (Plan B) annulling the marriage within that first year? You wouldn't, would you, because you'd effectively still be having to live and operate together as if married, unless one of you moved out while you immediately placed it back on the market (which might take forcing her by court order). And yet, your feet aren't diverting your route from THAT, EITHER. Are you really that fed-up of renting that you would keep tolerating this woman or at the least, this situation she's textbook coerced you into, just because you can only afford to go halves with the cost of a proper home? But if you annul, it'd be, you bloke, who were expected to leave the abode like a gentlman. OR IS IT JUST THE INVESTMENT PART, and you'd stop for longer at your parents? I don't CARE what your method is, quite frankly (bar murdering her in her sleep, of course). And LOOK HOW MUCH BETTER CURLY FEELS AND IS COPING BECAUSE SHE USES HER ANGER PRODUCTIVELY. So JUST TELL ME. Stop worrying about your halo. Who the hell told you, ANYWAY, that Angels are zen sodding buddhists who couldn't fight their way out of a suffocating paper bag? They're ucking TOUGH AND SCARY as well as pure and do-gooding (God's ARMY, not God's knitting group!). They have to be. Because of these DARK angels (devil's army) everywhere. What differentiates is, the Light-To-Dark Ratio: White Angels (super/supernova empaths) - min. 75% super-lovely, 25% unpleasant. Defence, not Attack. Dark/Fallen Angels (bad/evil (malignant) narcs - max. 25% pleasant, 75% super-horrid. Attack, not Defence. Opposites Land, Narcville is, innit. And - it's not the thought that counts, it's the action: NOT dismissing that bad thought but actually allowing oneself to actually dare DO it (and feel pleased with themselves). The corruption is wholly moral. If you have no/too little conscience, there isn't anything you wouldn't dare do, think about it. But then we come to the greatest differentiator of them all: White Angels: justified (by the laws of what psychology furthers as opposed to destroys our species). Dark Angels: not justified (destroys our species). Ain't Rocket Science. And - you're unquestionably justified. (Amongst innumerable other things - the 'woman' put - or, okay - KEPT you on anxiety & depression meds and nearly lost you your job AND CAREER, and even tried-on pretending she was preggers, ffs! And any respite & thinking time you had to fight for, she ruined by peppering with yet more acting-up!) Justified. (007, licensed to teach 'em a lesson and send 'em into therapy/changing their ways.) Until then, you have a deficit in your body-armour and ammunitions by about....I calculate - 20%. Meanwhile, everything you say with your mouth is just wishful thinking on your part, because of your having got some weird idea about what makes someone Good or Bad/Shameful. What about CIA operatives who have to shoot people dead on-the-spot? Are they baddies, then? Stop sitting on your wings for no good reason, is what I say. Roger - Over? PS: I see you have updates. I'll get to those tomorrow.

Actually, don't answer this one yet because I have an important comment and query to add. But do please answer ALL of the questions I asked you prior to your reply on Sept 18th, as they're important and have a bearing on all this. Chairs, James!

By which I mean - you've TOUCHED on some but it's all too vague. E.g your dad is LIKE WHAT toward your mother? If this really is important to you, then - details, please. Ta.

I keep going through euphoric recall and justifying everything again and then panicking with anxiety and living in the future of what can go wrong/ repeat. I can't make a decision. She is off to a wedding fayre this weekend with her mother and maid of honour. I can't justify letting that happen and then calling it off, nor can I call it off as keep believing in the hope for the future.

Tsk! I can't flippin' remember my comment! Can't have been that important, then. If it is, it'll come to me, once I get some decent Me Time. So - feel free to answer my questions, and also, any update? By which, I don't mean the fact you're still caught in indecision. I mean this: you might just need another event, comment, screech...who KNOWS which will be the final drip or splosh? I've seen, so many times, people, like you, thinking they can't decide in-time and then, something happens - and it can even be something you'd normally think were petty or trivial. But NOT when there are already zillions of petties and trivials as well as the meaties, already collected AND NEVER EMPTIED in said Tolerance Bucket. Could be a nano-drop. But, limit is limit, meaning, suddenly it overflows. BOOM - decision that you thought had to be made (by you), MAKES ITSELF. So really - just stop needlessly panicking. Even just doing that - relaxing - even *without* another drip/splosh happening - can be enough to recoup your full thinking faculties and have the decision presented to you on that plate. Your inner animal makes that decision, not you. Conscious-You just get the memo afterwards, and, out of ignorance of how a human-being/a biological computer works or prefers to work, take all the credit and rationalise it: Yeah, I decided that- / No, you didn't; hairychops did. I wonder what hairychops is waiting to still see/hear? On which note: you still haven't told me which parent or other relative of yours she takes after? Is it your Dad?

Wait - I've remembered! Why ON EARTH did you invite her to watch that documentary WITH you? I hope you did it convincingly casually? FYI, I'm afraid any assertions of hers, afterwards, e.g., about how SHE would never yadder-yadder, can't be taken seriously. They're usually meaningless. Whether unaware (Benign/Classic) or aware (Malignant) and denying what they are/are like and what depths they're capable of lowering themselves to, there is a disconnect between what they cognitively agree with and what they feel like or are capable of applying in reality. The only indicator is their past-to-present, consistent behaviour ("Pervasive Pattern"). Sorry if that rains on your hopeful parade. But I doubt it because - I agree with your intimated point: she's already done enough, anyway. HENCE YOU ARE HERE, IN HORRID COG.DISS. The amount of time you've spent stuck in it, rather heavily suggests you're LITERALLY 50-50. And if that footage I provided, didn't do the trick, then, the only thing that will - that works with your male-typical 'I'll see it when I believe it'/'actions-actions' mindset is this: that she commits another crime (or run of). You're right on the tipping point and waiting for what I've always called, The Final Insult. Hope for the future-wise: the only thing open to you is to learn how to train her so that she mostly 'daren't do'... and put up with the rest (because you can't let her be your full-time job - you've got one already)....basically, be her Dad. Wouldn't you rather have someone whom can take turns with you on that score, and be there for you as much so are, her? Like, if you're ill - she plays nursie to you as well and to the same degree you did? Or (since you're quite 'outside the envelope' already) are you so Loner and self-sufficient that you'd rather have a daughter (or practise-daughter) than an equal partner? Might that be the 'equally'-overriding benefit for who you are? There's a reason SOMEWHERE; let's start hunting properly for it (outside of the so-called Norm), yeah? Anyhoooo....back to yoooou...

Hi thanks again for the reply. I have until Thursday until even more money is sent for the wedding. She knows if my indifference and the other day she mentioned she felt alone in both the house and wedding as I e not been involved in either equally through lack of time and attention to being honest due to work and also her just getting her way anyway. Still waiting for the over the edge point but still have been and gone and I've just let them go. Her folks are buying a sofa tomorrow after years of waiting as we are having theirs for the new house so there is more guilt there if I pull out in days time. It's my dad that's the problem and similar in the future faking and hypocrisy that is turnt against people. Like I might do it wrong 1 outta 10 but not the same as 9 outta 10 but cause once is a evidence it fits. https://www.facebook.com/share/r/ELKrBxsrpZkLPAyS/ Been watchinging stuff like this and about emotional abuse which fits a lot. Everything in me says leave but just justify. Dr ramini videos have helped explain as well as yourself but I just can't do it. I've tried to relax like you said but tough as I spend so much time alone in my job ruminating and driving

Don't think she would be physical as I'm literally twice her size, but a slight slap on the chest years ago does give me doubt though was towering over her at this point in an argument. Justifying I know

Bumping you up as well...

Heya! I might be a little bit tiddly - not sure. But I'll do me best... "I have until Thursday until even more money is sent for the wedding. She knows if my indifference and the other day she mentioned she felt alone in both the house and wedding as I e not been involved in either equally through lack of time and attention to being honest due to work and also her just getting her way anyway." So she's not involving you but expects you to accompany her - presumably to be her audience? And then - as if she has no awareness or concept about how BORING and FUTILE that would make it feel for the other person - COMPLAINS about (wait for it) the CONSEQUENCE(S) of her (wait for it) OWN CHOICES/ACTIONS: you not having any interest... ...Meme (not verbatim): Narcs would have you believe that your perfectly normal (in this case - a no-brainer inevitable!) REACTION/RESPONSE to their abuse is the problem rather than the abuse itself. I.e. the FACT you've dared react like a self-respecting human - or that you've reacted AT ALL - is (cuckoo!) *you*, being abusive towards *them* (cuckoo!). That'd be right. (Swat I had to say to my last SNex: "Your idea of 'me "abusing" *you*', (Name), is, my not letting you abuse *me*!".) "Still waiting for the over the edge point but still have been and gone and I've just let them go." (Hahahaha - you are funny when you're not thinking.) YES...Because they weren't the final straw/drop (haha!). Them's the penultimates.... The build-up. You're already so brimming with resentment straws/drops that, albeit not enough to want to lose her/the romantic relationship for-good (yet), they ARE what's stopping you from wanting to make her and it, formal and 'irreversible'. PS: If she whinges again, either say 'Can you just get off my back about it, please' and leave it at that, or TELL her it's because she's kicked all the fun out of it by not letting you have your way over anything, getting to have it all her way, despite it's supposed to be teamwork - MEANING, although you ARE up to your eyeballs with work, etc., she's not exactly giving you the motivation to MAKE (SQUEEZE OUT) time for it. SURELY, she can understand that simple logic? (quote/unquote). (What's she gonna DO? Call the WEDDING off? Make such a stink that YOU call the wedding off? She'll have to DISCUSS it, like a NORMAL grown-up, female-fiancee. SHE knows how to do THAT? COURSE, she does! It's what she did to trick you INTO the relationship!) (*Owned*) "Her folks are buying a sofa tomorrow after years of waiting as we are having theirs for the new house so there is more guilt there if I pull out in days time." Naaaaah. If you two didn't want it they'd just offer it to someone else or take it to the dump! I mean - she and/or they might try to USE it - as an extra cosh to (*try to*) beat you with, but, otherwise - PFFFFFFFF! ("Urrr nuuuur....lost them a whurle, unwernted serfa!", ...haha-with-nose-snort.) Now to the Mother Ship: "It's my dad that's the problem and similar in the future faking and hypocrisy that is turnt against people." And what does HE think of her and have to say about her? (They can recognise faults in others okay, just never themselves, not even when it'd be obvious to a mere primary-school kid.) "Like I might do it wrong 1 outta 10 but not the same as 9 outta 10 but cause once is a evidence it fits." Uh-huh. Ridiculous. Good job he isn't a Magistrate, really, isn't it (*rolls eyes*) (feel free to join me). But that is DEFINITELY a sign of someone who's afraid you'll get too confident and leave them (or leave them human-toiletless), thus letting out some of your air. ...Well, not some - nine tenths. Tell him, with a deliberately angelic smile, that you purposefully screw-up the once in every ten attempts as a favour to him because you know how much he loves to have something to moan and critize about. Well, anyway.... if you married her, you'd marry your Dad - or a large chunk of him. Basically - HE couldn't ever be won-over, but, let's see if we can make someone very similar, this time Female, CAN be. (Answer: NNNNNNoooooo.) It's called Re-enactment. What's he like towards your Mum? And what's she like - and towards you and him? Which parent do you look like, and which, do you take after? Or is it a mixture? " https://www.facebook.com/share/r/ELKrBxsrpZkLPAyS/ Been watchinging stuff like this and about emotional abuse which fits a lot." Course. And, good. Watch it until it's coming out of your ears. "Everything in me says leave but just justify." I know. "Dr ramini videos have helped explain as well as yourself but I just can't do it." I KNOW. I repeat - the final straw/drip hasn't happened yet. "I've tried to relax like you said but tough as I spend so much time alone in my job ruminating and driving" Why do you help that final insult along, and give her a few pokes? Make sure they're the sort of pokes that a healthy-minded wouldn't see as an issue or even notice, normally, but would make a Narc rear-up majorly. Can you think up any? ____________________________________________________________ "Don't think she would be physical as I'm literally twice her size, but a slight slap on the chest years ago does give me doubt though was towering over her at this point in an argument. Justifying I know" You don't think she would be physical but years ago she was physical. It might have been small (or just felt small because you're tall and beefy?)...a test-run, perhaps...but it's still 'over the line' that we're not ever supposed to cross. Especially not in negative weather. Maybe VERY lightly during playfulness. But never during a clash. For one thing, it could start a precedent. I'm susprised she had the nerve, however, given your stature. Talk me through the incident, including what (according to her versus according to you) started the argument - including whether it was she who started (how?) and you who reacted (how?), or vice-versa? And also, how things had been moments before or in the days/weeks prior to?

" It's called Re-enactment." Plus it's your 'uncomfortable Comfort Zone'... Other victims/survivors ((note my comments and asterisks)) from Quora: _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=renacting+a+narcissistic+parent+with+a+partner "Is it common for someone who has had a narcissistic parent to enter into a relationship or marry someone who is narcissistic?" _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Susie Hanan Holcombe · Follow Works at Self-Employed (employment type)6y I did. ***I didn’t realize for years that I had married my mother. The way I was treated from the get-go was familiar; how I was always treated.*** You grow up thinking that is the way people/family members are. It wasn’t until many years later that I wondered why everyone else in the world was more important than me. It took a lot of self examination and retraining of my own self-esteem to break it all down. I was the luckiest person in the world when my Narc husband left. Our marriage was falling apart and I didn’t care anymore. I also quit trying to keep the relationship between my “at the time” husband and our children on good terms. Looking back, the most devastating part for me was realizing all that I had put up with for all those years; both from my mother and my husband. It took a while to realize just how far down the rung I was with my mother, but makes so much sense now why I allowed myself to be treated like a sub-human. When you are treated like you don’t count, you are nothing, everyone else is more important than you since birth, well……so yes, it is common for someone who is raised by a narcissist to marry one! ___________ Bill Gorden · Follow Self employed artist6y Definitely. If one of your parents was the royalty of the family and everyone did their bidding, it's likely that that will seem normal to you. ***If everyone defer to their wishes their choices and their desires it becomes normal for you. You don't even question it everybody knows that mom or dad is just that way.*** ***When you meet another person with the same vibe as someone you lived with all your life it's only natural for that to feel familiar. We like things that feel familiar. So that person that we've met gets a plus mark from us (at least in a subconscious way). You are drawn to them. So yes, there is a generational factor that acts as a trap for those with a narcissistic parent.*** ***You have already been trained to serve, to put yourself second and another first. Your new narcissistic partner will be thrilled with you - elated! And so you sacrifice a little more. And with all the positive feedback you're getting it becomes easy. You will even pride yourself as a giving person. But actually you have just stepped into a snare. They've got you now; and when you need something in return, when you ask for something for yourself, lookout because trouble is coming. You may be horrified to find just how little you can expect in return.*** ***When you bring this inequality to light, and maybe complain about it - you have just unleashed the Beast. The nice person curtain is pulled back to reveal their true selves. You may expect rage on a level that is totally out of line for the conversation. You may expect the person that you love facing you with a cold distant “Who Who Are You?” look. You will either be blown-off with lame excuses or hear something like, “I'm not your slave!”. And guess what? If you don't wise up in that instant You ARE THEIR SLAVE. Be careful and don't confuse “giving” with “serving”.*** ___________ Steve Anthony · Follow Life experience, living sober.6y By all means Its almost a prerequisite! (Although I am no expert on narcissism and knew very little about the subject until I found myself completely lost and unable to recover from a relationship that ended about 3 years ago. It wasn't until, while trying to recover from this very tumultuous toxic relationship that ended with more questions than answers that I found out about the words Narcissist, Cluster B, Borderline, NPD, codependent, empaths ......etc. ) One day I stumbled across a video that changed my life forever and made me understand so much about why all the things I had been doing for years finally made sense to me. It was like an awakening that I have been experiencing for the last 3 years and continue to grow more every day. The term narcissist was very unfamiliar to me. However when I heard someone else describe their experience the lightbulb went off and It was one of those Aha moments that I will never forget. All I knew was that I was so head over heals crazy in love with this person that would make me lose my mind over the things she would do. It was like being on a rollercoaster. The highs were the highest and the lows were the darkest. She felt so familiar and it felt like I had met my soulmate. She could push the buttons that would make me feel more loved than anyone I have ever met. I have never had anyone look at me the way she did. I felt like there was nothing in the world like her and that she was the one. I would do anything for her. How was it so magnetic? So unbelievable and inspiring to be loved so deeply and to be in love like I was with her. ***But little did I know that this was just an act. It was just a tool.*** You see my mother had conditioned me for this. She made me feel like love was conditional. I was never quite good enough. I always tried to please my parents but was made to feel like I was not worthy. In fact I was abandoned by my mom when my parents would fight. She would take off and leave me for days and I never knew if my mother was coming back or not. I used to beg her not to go. I remember it like it was yesterday. I always thought that they were fighting because of me. If I wasn't there then their life would have been better. I was the cause of their unhappiness. I was in the way. I was a burden. If only I could make my mom love me by being a better kid. Then comes this woman that swept me off my feet. Made me feel like a million dollars. Like I was everything to her. I did love her and I was crazy and madly in love with her. Then she would up and leave, even though she knew that abandonment was a big thing for me. It used to kill me that she would control me and test me and hurt me ***and yet when things would be at their worst she would come and rescue me from all of it and I became addicted to her like a drug***. ((Them 'rescuing' you from the cliff-edge right after having been the one who shoved and punched you there, kids you into believing (1) that they've rescued you and, (2), that you and they have 'been through something together'. No...They've put you THROUGH something (to a person in-love - something mini-traumatic...to add to the previous drip, and the previous, and-and-and... They've beaten you up but now are applying Balm to your wounds. And this is so that you don't fire them. Until you can't because you haven't got it in you any more, whereupon they cease with the balm and even shout contemptuously at you whenever you cry or look miserable because of it.)) If you wonder if you are attracted to a narcissist because of your parents the answer is yes! Not maybe, but absolutely. Our subconscious minds are triggered by the familiarity that the narcissist brings to our lives. ((and an opportunity to succeed at making the familiar Foe our Friend this time.)) We are like a beacon in the night that they are drawn to because of our ability to love them and admire them and give of ourselves to them. We are drawn to them because of their charm and because they make us feel needed and wanted and desired. ((...until 'suddenly' they don't and haven't for months/years/decades.)) Its a match made in ..... heaven? no hell. Its a ***love hate***, crazy whirlwind. After all the turmoil that I would go through and wonder to myself ***how could she do this to me?*** I never got the answer. ***I was made to feel like it was my fault. What could I do to make it right? How could I fix it? What happened? How could I be the love of your life one day and then you don't want anything to do with me the next.*** The biggest lesson to learn is that until you realize that you are attracting the narcissist into you life that you are destined to repeat this until you can heal from those childhood wounds. ___________ Butterfly1907 · Follow I've dealt with narcissistic abuse all my life 2y If your parents were narcissists, are you more likely to end up with a partner who is a narcissist? Yes, very likely. Sadly, we are not properly educated about the matter and it’s very easy to jump from one toxic environment to the other just because it is so damn familiar. ***Even when you know that one or both of your parents are abusive and you try to find a partner who is completely different from them, without proper knowledge about mental health you are very likely to fall for another narcissist, a different kind perhaps, but always a narcissist. That happened to me: I was looking for a partner who is completely different from my father (who is a diagnosed overt narcissist) and I fell for a covert one*** just because I was uneducated about narcissism. They are from different environments, have a different education and upbringing, they even grew up in different parts of the world, but all that didn’t help - narcissism is universal. In fact, my ex partner is much more disturbed than my father, to the extent that the latter had to prevent me from killing myself because of the former. ((Yes. Because you fall further down the rabbit-hole if you don't know (and the vast majority don't/didn't) to take double the normal-relationship time to climb back up and out before you hit the dating market again (whereas, with Normals, you've only ever got to climb out of a bit of a pit)) ***I’m glad that I never had children with that monster, because all this line of abuse and sufference is ending with me.*** ((NSPCC leading strapline: 'Cruelty to children must stop, FULL-STOP".)) ___________ Dorothy Sciortino · Follow Narcissistic abuse victim. Now a happy survivor! 2y If your parents were narcissists, are you more likely to end up with a partner who is a narcissist? Unfortunately yes unless you carry out research very early on. And I think this is connected to love bombing and the high, we victims get from it, without our own knowledge. I think we associate love bombing ((even if it doesn't feature the passion, just the pretending to be your opposite-gender counterpart)) with real love and since we have no knowledge about narcissism, we are snared big time. ___________ Km Dodge · Follow Spent 5 years with a woman suffering from NPD 2y If your parents were narcissists, are you more likely to end up with a partner who is a narcissist? I believe it is very likely. My parents ts are narcissist as hell and I've had an adulthood with narcissist women. I did realize or educate myself on NPD until bout 6 to 8 months ago. ***I felt that it was jus normal from being around behavior like that my entire life so I had no clue***. _______________________________________________ https://www.quora.com/Why-would-someone-choose-to-marry-a-narcissist Why would someone choose to marry a Narcissist: _______________________________________________ Pusheen · Follow Studied psychology Jul 31 First of all, why do people marry? People marry because they see other people marry. They are told that it's just something people do. People also eat hamburgers and do ice bucket challenges because other people do. In foreign countries, they eat things that we would find repulsive, because in other countries, people also eat what other people do. People simply follow others. They do not think for themselves. I've written more than once that marriage was an invention, just like romance. People simply do what others do, or because religion tells them to, or...fill in the blanks. (I’m a recovering Catholic, so I take this seriously. But I’ve always questioned everything I was told.) People also marry to compete with others, to get social status, etc. The narcissist is successful at attaining marriage partners, because they prey on the vulnerability of a person who desperately wants "the dream come true" of marriage. This is especially poignant in the case of women, who deeply believe that marriage is the most important goal in life. The narcissist knows this! They know you better than you know yourself in such a case. They are very aware of people's insecurities and vulnerable spots. They will go for the jugular and find out your weaknesses and exploit them. ***They do this by future faking and making make false promises that never come true.*** Or else, ***they change the game on your and constantly up the ante.*** In essence, the narcissist chooses the victim, not the other way around. He or she has already targeted you. Most likely, they made sure that you have a good job, or a potential for a good job, credit, and a trustworthy character. When they look at you, they see $$$ signs instead of a beautiful person deserving of love and loyalty. The narcissist is a predator who imitates a partner, a spouse, and a loving husband or wife. They are only in it for what they can get from you, and they usually do this when they realise they're getting older and need to "settle down" or they might miss the boat and have to actually work and acquire things on their own. Maybe they know they are only getting uglier as they age, so they’d better hurry up! It's much easier finding someone gullible with stars in their eyes who believes in true love. Much easier than working hard on their own goals, going to school, or making something of their lives. Thus, both the narcissist and the marriage partner are incomplete in a sense, because the narcissist cannot love, and the partner, if not aware, seeks marriage simply to feel "whole.” Without two whole people, there is no actual partnership or relationship. And the narcissist can never, ever be whole. ((Unless you prefix that with arse, haha.)) ___________ Get Over The Narcissist! · Follow Answered by Bryan Jamieson Jan 3, 2023 People tend to marry narcissists for two main reasons. First off those partners who, just like the narcissist are so swept up in the euphoria of the ‘Idealisation honeymoon’ phase of the relationship that they really believe all their prayers have been answered and this person really is the one for them. Narcissists also tend to go overboard with this stage and not uncommon for the whirlwind to get the better of each others judgement culminating in a walk down the aisle. ***Then those partners that have so much going for them that they have the narcissist worried that unless they become officially committed someone could well nip in front and steal from under their nose.*** This applies to those prospective spouses of status, healthy bank balance, impressive postcode and upwardly mobile friends. The more superficial criteria there are the shorter the courtship and keener a narcissist becomes to make things official. The former example has a greater chance of the narcissist showing their true colours ***a darn site quicker than the latter where its in the narcissists interest to be on their best behaviour to get their feet well and truly ensconced under the table.*** Suggest read chapter ‘The Idealisation phase’ in book entitled: ***‘Prepare to be tortured. The price you will pay for marrying a narcissist’.*** Available amazon books and ***audio***. ((I second that high recommendation, but listen to the whole book.)) ___________ Let me know if any of that, and/or hearing other ex-victims-survivors speak, helps?

Here's a very easy way to unearth/expose her - assuming you can sell the idea to her by explaining that you simply JUST CANNOT GET PAST the resentments she's 'buried' you in and, this type of counselling - because it's (cough!) PRO-relationship, as are you, (yeah, where both parties are normal enough!) and thereby, for want of a better word, biased - will give you/you both the mental skills for fixing all of that and more, in-time for the wedding. ______________________________ https://www.marriage.com/advice/pre-marriage/5-benefits-of-premarital-counseling/ (Extracts) "...In This Article You’ll see your relationship from “the outside in” It gives you a chance to think past your emotions Reasons for getting married are discussed Uncomfortable topics are covered The counselor provides an unbiased opinion Premarital courses andpremarital counseling books... ...Benefits of premarriage counseling A lot of couples only see it as a mere (and not extremely necessary) formality not realizing the surprising benefits of premarriage counseling. However, there is actually a lot of evidence supporting the fact that it’s one of the best proactive steps that you can take in order to safeguard your union. In fact, according to one published report, “Couples who underwent counseling before their wedding had a 30% higher marital success rate than those who did not....” (Again - unless one's partner is dishearteningly overly core insecure and/or narcissistic or, worse, "A" Narcissist (NPD), or hell-on-a-stick, a Malignant/Abusive NPD. But premarital counselling would reveal that - utterly and absolutely...because even IF this type of counsellor didn't see it (unlikely) - you would.)) "...1. You’ll see your relationship from “the outside in” Although basically all of us have heard the saying “Perception is reality”, that conclusion is more popular than it is actually true. Perception is the way that you personally see things, while reality is based on hardcore facts. So, say for instance that neither one of you has enough money to live on your own. Perception might say that “our love will get us through” while reality says “perhaps we should push the date back until we’re more financially stable”. During couple counseling before marriage, a good premarital counselor is going to take what you see “from the inside out” (perception) into account while still encouraging you to look at things from the outside in (the facts without your feelings so that your judgment is not clouded). That is one of the key benefits of premarriage counseling that will help couples enhance their readiness for marriage... ...Meanwhile, a marriage counselor is going to get you to look into the future besides proving other benefits of premarriage counseling. Do you both want children, and if so, when? Are you both good with money? Who has a higher sex drive? What are your love languages? Do you have a healthy relationship with each other’s parents? Who is going to do which chores around the house? What do you expect from one another? Remember, marriage is not just about loving another person. It’s about building a life with an individual. During couples counseling before marriage you get the opportunity to explore all types of issues, beforehand, just to make sure that you are marrying the right one for you. ______________________________ Were I you - frankly, if she refused, I'd take that as the definitive Red Flag (with Red Light and Klaxon).

More... Just giving you different voices, but still in the context of marriage/cohabiting, because sometimes, the way a person communicates can be right on your wavelength and really cut through the F.O.G. (- 'Heineken...Refreshes the parts other beers cannot reach' haha). IMO, however, this deals moreover with Classic/Benign Narcissism (so turn her 'equalizer board's' dials and levers both Up and On): ____________________________ https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/fulfillment-any-age/202105/why-narcissists-make-life-so-exhausting-everyone-else?msockid=3839564fb8ad6b070a214438b9056a6d Why Narcissists Make Life So Exhausting for Everyone Else ((Extract)) "Narcissism’s main features include a combination of lack of empathy and a need to feel superior to others. As someone in a relationship with a narcissist, these qualities can have a severe impact on your daily life and well-being. Consider, for example, what happens when a narcissistic person decides to embark with no holds barred on a new and “important” project. It’s Saturday morning, and the winter clothes closet needs to be cleaned out --- now! Your partner got this idea and expects you to jump right in, dropping your own weekend plans. Two days later, your partner gets a completely different inspiration. Again, forgetting what your priorities are, your partner insists on changing your internet provider, requiring a complete overhaul of your passwords. Although maybe both of these time-draining projects might be worthwhile in and of their own right, but why can’t your partner come up with a more reasonable way to include you in the planning?" ((With a diagnosable one (i.e on the NPD scale), if you raised this issue, you'd get...well, you know what you get - her, stealing the Victim Cloak from you, attacking, (unawares/deliberately) losing her temper as a first resort, even screeching like a cheap daytime soap character, thereby diverting the pointed finger to *you*, and *THAT*, as well as *HOW*, you've dared take a stand. PS: My Snex said, 'Oh, well if you'd approach me in a better way then maybe I wouldn't get angry'. ('Maybe', look.) As it was a gaslighting attempt, since I'd already tried that, I Spock-like replied - 'What - invisibly and inaudibly?'. NOTE: He or she is not 'abusive because they're angry'. They are 'angry because they are abusive' (i.e. it wouldn't ever come to that with a Normal-Healthy). Anyway, I've pasted-in this one because the impression I've got is that she's high functional in an economical and practical sense, i.e. can hold down a job and get things organised okay? But she acts like you're a mere accessory, is VERY low on empathy but likes kidding herself she 'rescues' you when, in REALITY, what she does (only if you ask for it?) is CEASES ABUSING followed by physically and/or (which?) verbally comforting you ...which is more Narc-Spath than Narc-Covert, as these DO have enough conscience to feel a BIT bad afterwards...for a short while (too short, usually - or, if severe, get impatient/nasty if you don't miraculously chirp up when they click their fingers. Am I close?)) "You might even have a narcissistic boss who throws new projects your way on an incessant basis, always citing the need to complete these as being highly urgent. You’ve become worn down by the need to switch gears from the one arduous task barely begun to this next one just added to your plate. At night, you spend an entire dinner unloading to your partner or roommates just how unfair it all is. However, your boss seems oblivious to the impact all of these demands for immediate attention are making on your mental, and potentially, physical well-being." ((Oh, GGGGOD!...my last (freelance) boss in UK was like this. UGH...rude and repulsive woman (ish-come-total-sl*t). Luckily, it was only a set-period contract. It's called, pathologically impulsive; lazy but trying to look Busy; enjoying watching you struggle because they don't like you because you're far lovelier, more impressive and talented/capable (- OBVIOUSLY...you're not the nutter)...deliberately gave all staff vague instructions and then went back on them/denied giving them; mixed messages....a mess-maker and hoarder, a mis-filer, a client (grossly!) disrespector (whom were ALL unwittingly already Narc Victims!) - superiority complex on-legs, downright contemptuous, two-faced/nasty gossiper, virtually nil regard for others' bog-standard boundaries, including practically undressing in front of all staff(!!)...- aww, don't get me started. The other perm. employees (all with their own distinct depts/roles to discourage bonding via Teamwork), were very 'flat, weary' and 'exasperated as a default',...like they'd only just got out of bed, still on auto-pilot, due to emotional exhaustion and numbing obviously... is the only word to describe them, albeit, livened up a bit whenever she wasn't in - which was frequently-ooops, starting again, haha. PS: Most staff left her or would make an excuse to go part-time. That's how bad she was...you didn't need to wait to be pushed.)) "What’s Underneath the Narcissist’s Tendency to Exploit You? According to new research by University of Birmingham’s Claire Eddy (2021), there’s a reason that people high in narcissism are likely to take their toll on the people around them. In her words, their “high self-efficacy combined with a competitive nature yield professional and personal achievements,” but those “successes may arise through successful manipulation of others to gain opportunity and status” (p. 2). ***What’s worse, those high in the “dark” form of narcissism tend to treat other people as objects ((free personal assistants, inferiors, slaves, focus of hatred/bitterness/bad, volatile moods)) derogate them, and have zero insight into how their targets feel about having their sense of agency taken away from them***." ((AND go too far, like dissing you in front of your parents, refusing to have your back, e.g. not making supper for you too, as if you're just a not-very-close flatmate)) and not letting you have equal say in your own marriage arrangements OR LIFE... treating you like a Primary School kid while behaving like it or younger, herself. Again, I won't-ish get me started.)) "Several of the key results that support the overall predicted narcissism-social cognition relationship are worthy of mention. First, people high in narcissism tended to be low in the measures of empathy reported in these studies, and although this is not a generally socially desirable quality, caring about the feelings of others can be seen to them as a sign of weakness or vulnerability. In other words, if narcissists show they care about how others feel, it could mean that ((they)) are afraid of learning the answers. This pattern was more true of people high in the vulnerable form of narcissism, whose main quality is that of feeling inadequate ((and taking it out on everyone else or just one special, personal scapegoat)). When it comes to emotional intelligence, theory of mind, and emotion recognition, Eddy reported that people high in the grandiose form of narcissism score in ways that indicate they see themselves as superior to others. ((Note she has Overt Grandiosity, Covert Superiority, AND cloak-stealing Vulnerability - which screams N-Spath ("AllSpath"...bit like licorice Allsorts but neither tasty nor packed with Iron,..hur-hur).)) There was weaker evidence for theory of mind than for other social cognitive measures, including emotional intelligence. given that there were fewer studies in this area than with the other 3 emotion-reading measures. However, the evidence that Eddy evaluated led her to suggest that people high in narcissism don’t spend much effort in discerning the specific emotions of others ((because, to varying degrees, none of them CARE about anyone but themselves, so they don't bother and/or don't know how)). Instead they put their efforts to figuring out what others are thinking as a way to manipulate them. In her words: “Such tendencies could also help to explain the narcissistic romantic love style which apparently seeks to control the partner’s mind, rather than their heart” (p. 13)." ((It also explains why the dumb comments about how you don't seem all that keen with the organising (no - really?! - duuuuuuuh...). Although if an NSpath, that can be, deliberately rubbing it in - a subtle form of Duper's Delight. Depends on - does she *keep* saying/raising it, even when you give your 'reasons'? RSvP?)) ..."How to Escape the Narcissist’s Constant Demands. If narcissists lack empathy but are astute in detecting how to bend you to their will, the escape path for you may be to resist those “theory of mind” manipulations they perform on you. They may or may not be aware of your emotions, but their cognitive adroitness with manipulation will pursue undaunted if they actually end up succeeding in getting you to follow whatever their whims seem to be at the moment. ((I.e., just one way of unwittingly Feeding The (accidental..deliberate..sadistic) Monster.)) The people who get away with these behaviors, as Eddy suggests, have essentially become reinforced by their success in bending you to their will. ((That's why you have to nip EVERYTHING in the bud during Honeymoon, wherein, particularly, they sneak these litmusing prods/tests)) They may even derive “reinforcement value” in their “problematic interpersonal behaviors” (p. 13). ((Yup - getting their own way over everything like a spoilt toddler..child..teen, using both sneaky AND 'Queen of Hearts' ways.)) When it comes to a boss, the simplest way out of your bind is to reduce some of that reinforcement value. Try a gentle refusal with an acknowledgment of the importance of the task. ((Tried that repeatedly - didn't work.)) Provide a timeline that you think is reasonable and one that you believe will satisfy your boss’s need for instant gratification. ((That too!)) Showing a bit of a backbone ((that too!)) while also supporting the overall value of the project ((yup!)) may also teach your boss something ((nope!!)) about just how far you can in fact be manipulated." ((YOU tried this once or twice, though - and it did work - right?...remember? So she's milder than my Nex boss. Do it again - even if just to buy yourself time/thinking space.)) ((article continues))

PS: Nag-nag-nag-nag-nag, BTW: Beeping whennnnnnnnnnnnnnn is the beeping get-together with Brother and/or Andy, please/thank-you?

Lying about infertility is not possible for a variety of reasons. Infertility can be psychological or unexplained, where doctors are unable to diagnose a specific cause. In some cases, significant life changes, such as entering a new, happier relationship, may alleviate psychological blocks, allowing a woman to conceive even if she was unable to in previous relationships. Similarly, unexplained infertility can also shift with lifestyle changes, such as a woman falling in love, deciding to lose weight, and reaching a healthy BMI—factors that can improve her chances of pregnancy. In these scenarios, she is not being dishonest about her infertility; rather, changes in her circumstances have made pregnancy possible. According to a report by Egg Donation Friends(source: https://www.eggdonationfriends.com/egg-donation-guide/egg-donation-costs-worldwide-map/), the cost of fertility treatments starts from €5,000. From personal experience, I know many couples who have undergone six or seven cycles before achieving success, spending significant amounts of money at fertility clinics. Given the emotional and financial difficulties associated with infertility treatments, I don't believe women would manipulate or lie about such challenges. In fact, most women I know tend to avoid revealing their struggles with getting pregnant

Thanks WhiteSnow, but, we're not talking about a woman. We're dealing with a female Narcissistic Coercive Controller and Verbal Abuser whom happens to be female(-ish). The rules for Normal-healthies don't apply.

(Moderator's bump-up)

Got a message to paste in for you from long-haul poster, DD, then LiveToTell, now Songbird, that she's written on her new thread: https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13825/barbra-streisand#jumptobottom Message dated SONGBIRD - Nov 20 2024 at 02:18 I asked her to try talking to you because she's basically you, decades ahead (but she felt it might show that she's not in the best of moods at the mo - which is a direct, ongoing consequence of her having gone ahead despite the Red Flags) (albeit, let's not forget there's still Annulment or Divorce). And you know what the famous Chinese proverb says: 'To know the road ahead, ask those coming back'.... It's hard-hittingly true, so - "Brace, brace, brace!"... ______________________________________________ "Just had an image in my head (brace yourself for crazy) of the wedding cake topper. Saw her take you ABCD (the groom figurine) out & put her Mother in beside her. But doesn't this just say it all? You are removable. You are not of high value to her. You are the solid, resin, figurine to fit the 'normal' image/picture. She needs a 'groom' beside her to get the life she is after. But she 'wants' Mother there 'always' not necessarily 'you'. ABCD this isn't LOVE. This is 'acting out the scene of a romance and the inevitable going down the aisle'. You have a purpose (for now!). To complete the look (image) to all guests & make her (fiancée) feel to all like a 'success' in life. Your fiancee needs the groom figurine and you're the schmuck mate (sorry not sorry). You are the only pliable male she has found to fit the bill. Nice enough to manipulate into believing she is nice enough to marry. Please look in the mirror and practise these VOWS. Usual: For better or worse. ABCD: For worse Usual: For richer or for poorer ABCD: For poorer Usual: In sickness and in health ABCD: Through Mental sickness as well as physical sickness Usual: For as long as you both shall live ABCD: This will damage me for as long as I shall live As the wedding gets closer watch her get nicer towards you. She has to succeed. This schmuck must be waiting for me at the end of the aisle. Manipulation & Control. Solve it now. Once and for all! Tell her... “I'm not making suggestions nor getting involved in the wedding plans not because of work but because you and your mother are getting married and I'm just a guest. If I suggested anything would it really make a difference? Would you change things now to please me?” Then add a clincher 'and your choice of ________ (colours/flowers/whatever) really sucks. Talk about bad taste'. Sit back & watch your world burn!!! Your actual, genuine future begins from this moment! Does she stop dead in her tracks & think before she speaks and makes her next move? Is she taking time and being careful figuring out her words. Must keep up the façade. So close and yet so far. Can't lose the fish of the hook this far in. 'oh darling I didn't realise you felt that way' rub of arm and smile, head on side'. Mate your balls are on the chopping block. Look down and say good-bye to them. Or Sit back & watch. ANGER. Explosive. Different woman. Who the fuck is she? Yelling 'well you are ungrateful and mum says this about you...blah...blah...you're lucky to be getting me'. Either way BIG CONGRATS ABCD you've achieved 'Happily NEVER! After'. And you are about to choose to ruin potential innocent little souls lives with mommy dearest there. So from a victim of non stop EMOTIONAL & PHYSICAL ABUSE as a child and well into adulthood then I'll speak for them and say this to you their potential Daddy... 'Thank you Daddy for choosing a totally manipulative, mentally disturbed, bitch for my mummy and my matching Nanna. I'm damaged for life and have had more spankings than I could count. At school I watch other parents and wonder why I didn't deserve that kind of consideration, caring and genuine love. You exposed me to this forever. You had real doubts about both of them. However you went head long in ignoring good advice and that warning voice in your own head. You and you alone chose to permanently TAINT and negatively IMPACT my little life due to your indecision. If only you'd manned up & grown a set of balls then I'd have had a normal mummy, loving home and good life. You have failed at 'unconditional love'. You have achieved 'selfish love'. All I can reflect on is how you must have really wanted mummy to deliberately make me with her and place me permanently in this situation. Daddy you had doubts. Daddy I had no choice in this life you provided for me. I'm a victim of Nanna, Mummy & YOU!'." ____________________________________________________________________________________ Come on, matey - don't go all quiet on us, talk to us.