Calling out bad behaviour

I felt really appalled by a friends lack of emotionally maturity, her disrespect for people in general, her tantrum throwing when l tried to establish boundaries, unwillingness to view any perspective but her own, her unwanted and dodgy advice 'to never explain, never apologise' and rigid opinions that were decidedly right wing, completely uninformed and bordering on conspiracy theory. She also has some v good traits and really helped me out during a v bad time. I've made it v clear that lve appreciated this. My problem is not that l walked away from the friendship. Its how l did it. She attacked me viciously recently when l tried to explain that sending 100's of pictures to my WhatsApp was too much. This was my 4th attempt at trying to set a boundary here in a nice way. It also isn't the 1st such incident. I had to block her, it was so vitriolic. Anyway end result l just got fed up of the bs and told her in no uncertain terms that l couldn't be in a relationship like this, that l thought she was emotionally immature and needed to grow up. I now feel l could have handled it better. Don't get me wrong l am not reingaging. I just wonder who am l to tell another person they are emotionally immature, even when they are. Perhaps l would have hurt her less if l had just said nothing and drifted away. I have no desire to hurt anyone. But nor can l condone behaviour like this. I would just like opinions. Thanks

hi galadriel, I am so similar to you. I always find myself reevaluating my past behaviour and how I could’ve been or done ‘better’/been more morally correct. Unfortunately what I’ve learned, is that very rarely do things ever go as lightly as we wish they could. If we wanted peaceful resolutions, everyone involved has to be a peaceful person. Unfortunately we all have flaws, and because of that people will more often than not, lash out and hurt someone more than they wanted to. It sucks, but unforits just a way of life. You learn about yourself, how you react, how other people act and how to act next time. I don’t know about you, but I’ve let feelings of guilt about ‘not being good enough’ in relation to conflict and friendships consume me. I didn’t want the friendships to start again, I didn’t even care about them anymore aside from fulfilling my own moral compass. It just became another outlet for self hatred and insecurity. You know you won’t tolerate such behaviour, you’ve made your decision and now you just have to stick to it. Acknowledge that yeah, in an ideal world you might’ve been able to be nicer, but unfortunately you weren’t in an ideal situation. You were in a situation where your anger was very real and justified. You did good. If you’re like me, and get guilty about how good of a person you are, please just do your best to move on from the situation. Just accept it say you’ll do better next time, and move on. Don’t let this consume you, you already know you don’t care for them being in your life anymore. That’s all the closure you need. Sorry if this didn’t make sense, your post just really resonated with me lol.

No it does make sense and thank you. I always try to reflect inwards and learn. And ld rather be worried about hurting another person than not care at all. It's a challenge though isn't it, this being a grown up :-)

No it does make sense and thank you. I always try to reflect inwards and learn. And ld rather be worried about hurting another person than not care at all. It's a challenge though isn't it, this being a grown up :-)

No it does make sense and thank you. I always try to reflect inwards and learn. And ld rather be worried about hurting another person than not care at all. It's a challenge though isn't it, this being a grown up :-)

Hi Galadriel! Just one thing I'd like to add (and great post, Macy - do more, please! :) ... Someone (a A-HEUGH-Narc-a-heugh!...tickly throat) attacks you viciously, verbally, over sodding nothing (in the grand scheme of things) - and you're worried about being POLITE about telling the disgusting excuse for a woman to respect your large boundary of not being drowned in photos (because it uses up your precous data) or pee-off??? They deliberately push you too far and fight dirty (heinously). Well-known for it. Even a SAINT would eventually lose their sh*t - trust me on that. That's WHY they're called toxic/emotionally-dangerous (or worse). Anyway, what you said was VERY mild, compared to most victim-survivors. And CERTAINLY in response to this huge loony-tune! Have you googled "Narcissistic Friend" yet, or "XX things narcissistic friends do" or some such? Do. And then you'll see how maintaining your politeness as with a normal, decent, healthy person is advised AGAINST because THEY are FAR from polite so it puts you at a disadvantage. Methinks you just followed your instincts but aren't used to bringing out your own 'inner warrior'. Be ICE or VICE with Narcs, and NICE for the equally delightful friends. Or else you're giving away your precious (because because, eventually, as you age, you lose charge, just like a mobile, and can't re-charge back up enough!) energy and resources to futile, feral/antisocial idiots instead of pro-social lovelies. Narcs WANT you to rise to the bait so she'd have been well 'happy' with that anyway (but not that happy because your reaction/ego food was more just a wee snack). Do NOT judge them through the Normal-Healthy-Empath lens. As you see - agitate them just the tiniest bit (they're permanently agitated actually, looking for any excuse) and - WOAH, WHO ARE YOU AND WHERE'S FRIEND GONE?! It's called them ripping off the Mask (of normalcy/sanity/niceness) which is akin to someone losing the argument, verbally, suddenly punching you to shut you up (shock factor). CHEATING at arguing, actually including hitting under-the-belt. Serously, by your descriptions - she's DRIPPING in Narcissism. And they feel ENTITLED to YOU, as well as everything else, you see. "If I want to pelt you with too many photos, you should just take it, Slave!". So they HHHHHHATE you erecting behavioural boundaries/fences....red rag to a bull, that one. DON'T PUT MRS RUDER-THAN-ME AWAY AGAIN, WHATEVER YOU DO. KEEP HER TO-HAND FROM NOW ON. Narcs obviously are as attracted to you as the rest of us Empaths. You can equally be Icy, though, as above. Just - WHATEVER you do, use both barrels. (Tharr be Monsturrs out thar in them hills, thar bee, ooh-arr.)

Here you go: https://www.lovewithintelligence.com/boundary-setting-with-narcissists?r_done=1 (Extract) "...And ironically, the only people who will get upset with you setting boundaries are those who benefitted when you didn’t have any. Let that sink in. Many people will suggest boundary-setting to get rid of narcissists. One side effect of having boundaries is you become less attractive to narcissists. When you’re no longer available to shore up their self-esteem, your perceived value goes down. They’ll go elsewhere to seek their ‘fix’. But what do you do if you already have a narcissist in your life? Will setting boundaries make any difference? Read on to find out why boundaries don’t always work - and what you can do instead. Narcissists Don't Care About Boundaries The first thing to remember about narcissists is they need to be in control and they also need to be right. Boundaries get in the way of both things. They can’t control the narrative if you’ve put a roadblock in their way. When you set a boundary, they see it as you questioning what they’re doing. How dare you question them! They’re always right! And then they just bulldoze straight through the boundary like it was tissue paper. Don’t even try to explain why you’re setting the boundary to them, either. Narcissists don’t care about your feelings. They genuinely aren’t interested in how much happier you’ll be with boundaries in place. They don’t want you to be happy. No, they just want you to keep supplying them with attention. As a result, they only care if a boundary affects them and their access to you. How Do Narcissists React To Boundaries? Narcissists see boundaries as an attack on them, even if they’re not. For example, you might hate checking emails after 7 pm. Whenever you do, you get dragged into work-related stuff. So you set a boundary - no checking emails after 7 pm. A non-narcissist would be proud of you for putting yourself first. To a narcissist, you’re limiting their ability to contact you whenever they want. They will push back the moment you set the boundary. In fact, you might get one, or all, of these reactions to boundaries. Gaslighting They use gaslighting to knock you off balance. You’ll question if you even need boundaries. Expect phrases like “You’re over-sensitive”. Or “This is another one of your personal development fads, isn’t it?” They’ll say whatever they can to belittle your decision. It erodes your boundaries until you let the narcissist do what they want. Ignoring Them Narcissists will often ignore boundaries altogether. They might steam-roller through them because they don’t recognise them as being valid. If they don’t ignore them, then expect them to test your boundaries. They’re looking for wiggle room or weaknesses they can exploit. Getting past your boundaries will become a game for them. Emotional Abuse Expect an emotional abuse campaign in response to your new boundaries. This is their way of acting out because you’re stopping them from treating you however they please. Getting Defensive This is where narcissists show how little they value you or your happiness. When they get defensive, they show you how much it bothers them they can’t behave as they please. Remember, a strong sense of entitlement often comes with narcissism. Strangely, a narcissist getting defensive shows you how little they care about you. It can help to clarify which people to remove from your life! One problem with setting boundaries with narcissists is that it shows them what is important to you. This gives them valuable ammunition so they know exactly what to target next time they want to hurt you. So if setting boundaries both angers and empowers a narcissist, what can you do? 1. Leave The Relationship Leave the narcissist. I know it’s hard, which is why we wrote a guide about how to get narcissists to leave you alone. But you need to accept that they will not change. They can’t change. You can’t love them enough to bring back the fake version of them you first met. Let it go and leave. Go ‘no contact’ so you’re not wasting time trying to find out what they’re doing or saying about you. Don’t give them any routes back into your life. If you do, they’ll probably try hoovering to bring you back around... and then the abuse starts again. 2. Set Boundaries For Yourself Dealing with narcissists destroys your self-esteem and the ability to trust your judgment. If you’re bad at setting boundaries for yourself, this becomes even more problematic. Let’s go back to the work emails example. You’ve set a boundary not to check emails after 7 pm. Then one day, a client asks you to check your emails and get back to them because it’s “urgent”. And it’s 7:30 pm. You’d be well within your rights to say no. It’s outside of normal working hours. But you cross your own boundary and check your emails. Do this too often and you train yourself that your boundaries don’t matter. Other people can cross them with ease because you don’t uphold them for yourself. Start setting boundaries for yourself and keep them. You’ll be able to retrain yourself that your boundaries matter because YOU matter. Having healthy boundaries is a great deterrent for manipulative people. 3. Learn to Identify and Disarm Narcissists Walking away from a narcissist and having boundaries will only get you so far. Being able to spot a narcissist - and turn them away - will save you from heartache and psychological trauma. Please don’t think you can rely on intuition to see narcissists for what they are. Narcissists have left some of the most intuitive and intelligent people in pieces because they didn’t see the narcissist coming. Narcissists are masters at bending and flexing to appear the way you want to see them." "...You deserve to live without the trauma of a narcissist in your life."

(This PLANET deserves to live without the trauma of a narc in its life!)

Thank you v much. That's brillant and l really needed to hear it.

You're welcome! It IS a good article, isn't it. Newish, I think. Going to keep that one in my trusty archives. As you're just fresh out of captivity - check-out Macy's own thread: https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13643/i-think-my-bf-sexually-harassed-me-should-i-leave (Misleading title...bf it turns out is not the problem.) And feel free to keep the discussion/analysis, here, on your LOVELYYY experience with 'your' Narc going on here. It'll help you grieve her out (well, her nice or okayish side) faster, and other readers/lurkers. PLUS.....You may not be safe/out of it yet. Next comes the dreaded Hoovering. Have you googled that yet? Yours might...might not. But it's good to be armed and ready, including working out what style of Hoovering she'd be likely to employ. Shall we name her? Can't keep calling her 'she'. Something suitably piss-taking? ...."Jane D'oh!"? (Your turn lol)

She can't really hover. I live in a different country, lve blocked her everywhere already,couldn't give a toss about social media, raised and sorted a few issues like having left some stuff in her house when l visited. I also called her out on every tactic she has used with me, so there isn't really much she can do. I trusted my gut, and knew what she was at. I just second guessed myself there. And l needed to express it to get back on track. That's why putting it out there and getting the responses has been very valuable. I'm going to work on letting it go and trust my gut way earlier on in the future. So unless she puts a bomb in the post, all should be OK. 😉

She can't really hover. I live in a different country, lve blocked her everywhere already,couldn't give a toss about social media, raised and sorted a few issues like having left some stuff in her house when l visited. I also called her out on every tactic she has used with me, so there isn't really much she can do. I trusted my gut, and knew what she was at. I just second guessed myself there. And l needed to express it to get back on track. That's why putting it out there and getting the responses has been very valuable. I'm going to work on letting it go and trust my gut way earlier on in the future. So unless she puts a bomb in the post, all should be OK. 😉

The above is also really good.

Bear with! Be with you asap :) PS: Yeah, read it, cheers. Shahida Arabi, one of the longer-running victim-survivor experts. Check out her books!

"She can't really hover. I live in a different country, lve blocked her everywhere already,couldn't give a toss about social media, raised and sorted a few issues like having left some stuff in her house when l visited. I also called her out on every tactic she has used with me, so there isn't really much she can do. I trusted my gut, and knew what she was at. I just second guessed myself there. And l needed to express it to get back on track. That's why putting it out there and getting the responses has been very valuable. I'm going to work on letting it go and trust my gut way earlier on in the future. So unless she puts a bomb in the post, all should be OK." Then what a lucky break! Because they can stalk (first choice these days, electronically - if that fails, in-person...but not when it involves actual effort). However, the reason yours won't is precisely because you showed her you could see right through her and knew what she was. So, really, the distance is immaterial and what matters is, you shoved a mirror in her face while she was in wolf mode AND SHE SAW HER UNDENIABLE SNOUT. She wouldn't want to come near you and your mirror again - no way...It's a full-time job pretending to be something and someone you're not (nothing LIKE!) and getting everyone to agree with you (to feed/maintain/shore-up your act/delusion), WITHOUT a full-size, REAL reflection 'following you around'! They're trying to uber-forget it! Nicely done! :)

Oh - no - sorry - I hadn't seen that one! I think Shahida (whose articles appear on TC) wrote something similar. Immature is sort-of acceptable, tolerable and understandable unless the person is now no longer a teenager (or, thanks to COVID, certainly beyond 25). Beyond that - they're proving they're a Narcissist (or may as well be - i.e. stunted and over-self-protective to the extent of, at other people's expenses). Had she been Iffy/spoilt despot in the run-up or was this shocking behaviour literally the first time, out-of-the-Blue?

You still there, Galadriel? I forgot to add, for the record: They do say that the fastest way to get rid of a Narcissist is to fortify or newly erect a boundary. Even something as simple as, 'I do keep asking you not to pelt me with photos / ambush me with your bad moods texts when I'm out with someone (who isn't you-you-you), but you keep doing it so, in future I will just immediately delete them / just won't respond and will probably give you a bit of a wide berth for the next few days until you get a grip. Sign of the Cross to a Vampire, is a "No Trespassing" sign. They hiss at you and lash out towards your face with their fingernails a lot, but if you stand firm and won't back down, soon enough, climb back in their box (the one marked, Toxic). Whereupon they play "Chicken" - neither deleting you nor talking to you...and you're in stand-off. Again - just KEEP that Cross erect in the air and they'll CHOOSE not to come out again ...not in your presence, anyway. They can't take the 'light' (truth) shoved in their face, see. That you're NOT their little Minion and DON'T love them unconditionally (cos they ain't yer chld) enough to keep tolerating bad/rude/downright antisocial behaviour in a so-called, Equal Adult who was clearly raised by pigs or pack dogs (on some remote and uninhabited island somewhere...on Mars). (Can you imagine...if LaLa Land were actually a planet? ...And you were a visiting astronaut....and, climbing out of your spacepod, and (no doubt using some techie gadget) yelling: 'Take me to your leader!'? Every single one of them would step forward! :D Bit like that scene from Life Of Brian (I'm Woderwick - welease me!/No, I am!/Don't listen to him - I am!/...). Hahaha.

No offence. And with all due respect to you. Your anger seems to me extreme. I don't want to bitch about her. I'm not even sure she is a narcissist. If you read any of the stuff about narcissistic, very few people are truly classed as narcissistic personality disorder, i.e. mental illness. While most of us have narcissistic traits! She is not good for me, and l appreciate the feedback. But it's a mistake to be so busy accusing others that we don't look at ourselves. Chances are, we all play a part and can handle things better. I don't think she is a true narcissist, rather a fucked up woman who knows no better. And for that l have empathy.

We all need to grow up a little emotionally and learn to deal with our stuff.

No, Galadriel - you do. If that wasn't an inappropriately out-of-the-blue tantrum at ME - despite your pathetic attempt to pre-emptively colour it 'without offence and with respect' in your bid to straitjacket me against appropriate, self-respecting response les I be seen to 'over-react' (fail) - telling me this offensive, disrespectful, self-aggrandizing, belittling post, all centred on an attempt to cast doubt on the credibility of me, my opinions and methods for encouraging healing - is NOT in fact offensive and disrespectful, when in reality and given the situation and dynamic, it could achieve nothing BUT to cause offense, etc., then,... I don't know WHAT is! Except, I do. Including how victims need to be helped to unleash their banked-up outrage and frustration so as to be capable of moving onto Accepting what the other person is - behaving and speaking like that (along with everything ELSE you mentioned or indicated) . can only be. Even those who are normal yet high on the natural narcissism scale wouldn't lower themselves to that level in front of another person. Non-Narcissistic, fully-formed Adults haven't remotely tantrumed since toddlerdom and wouldn't DREAM of humiliating themselves by behaving so disgustingly like that as one adult to another! Normal-healthies KNOW how to treat other adults. We're not talking Neurotypically-natural narcissism here. We're talking too high on the scale to be palatable as a friend/lover/whatever or so bad they're diagnosable and actually mentally-into-physically (health-wise) dangerous. There are FAR more Narcs "hiding in plain sight" among us than recorded. The statistics reflect only those whove been court-ordered, spouse-threatened (and it's just not convenient to jack it in yet), or in whatever ways without any other choice, to be clinically assessed. Do your research, rather than thinking you're suddenly the expert and I know ugger-all, just because you've read the odd page on the internet. Your lack of comprehensive knowledge speaks for you. Furthermore, if you're such the expert, why did you even come here? Also, "bitching", to use your deliberate misnomer, works with most when it comes to encouraging out said banked-up indignation, but is vital when dealing with a victim of a Narcissist or overly and pervasively Narcissistic behaviours. There again, I already know all of that is just a Red Herring. Since the evidence freshly shows you tantrum too, albeit covertly - said belittlement and discrediting attempt - and since I can add 2 plus 2 - obviously, having found-out that you aren't capable of throwing that particular first stone has really rattled you, ergo, that has to be my fault, ergo, any veracity in my information must be as-much-as-possible REMOVED. Well, you panicked and lashed-out for nothing. You've already SAID this growing-up thing is hard so obviously you're a starter adult and thereby not yet not far enough removed from being able to grab for the old, familiar, childish, teenage ways of reacting. I.e. getting arsey and biting the hand that's been feeding you. So speak for yourself since that is the only person you're qualified to speak for. And FYI, don't judge anyone else's 'appalling lack of maturity' if you're then going to then turn around and behave in a way that shows that, on that score, you are no better than her. That is gross Hypocrisy, a symptom of low eQ. Maybe she's not learned how to behave like an adult yet, either, and is still closer to teenager. HOWEVER, there are too many OTHER people your age who wouldn't be so jumped-up as to think it's okay for them to react like that, as if they believe they can get away with it. Immature is not another word for Arsehole. It's just an excuse. So yes, it would seem growing-up IS proving hard for you and you DO need to learn to deal like an adult...to learn that in the adult world, unwarranted obnoxiousness does not get rewarded, let alone overlooked/tolerated and swept under the carpet. So I'll bid you adieu, and, better luck with not alienating kind, helpful, unpaid volunteers in the future, let alone breaking forum rules of (adult) conduct. Before you go: if you do care to do actual research, you'll find out that the Normal Relationship Laws, like Co-Creativity thus Co-Responsibility, don't apply. A victim of a pathological Dominator has no say and therefore cannot take any responsibility for any of it, nor its consequences. You're literally without agency. Until you 'come round' and properly wake up...but by which time, some damage has already been done. They're not called Emotionally Dangerous for nothing. Oh, and do google what a narcissist comes to be capable of if their behaviour constantly goes unchecked, unconfronted, unchallenged, unpunished (by actual consequences). It's called feeding the monster. They just get worse and more outrageous and dangerous. In fact, try this, Little Miss Clever-Clogs, and see if it doesn't make YOU angry...including the fact it's allowed to keep existing since Biblical times, despite today's governments the world over have long had the means to stop this social cancer once-and-for-all, but for some reason do next to nothing (except bang them up where they just get even worse): https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/mum-who-had-her-eyes-gouged-out-794063 If it DOESN'T make a person angry then, frankly, there's something wrong with them. This evil level of over-entitlement and attitude of being above the rules that other adults have to abide by, starts or comes out during the teenage years. Shane Jenkin was allowed to keep getting away with the fruits of his spoilt-baby beliefs, attitudes, etc., or simply walked-away from, again and again, which is how over the ensuing years he got to grow that 'big' (and that self-alienated thus vengeful). But you can guarantee he started out just being interactionally obnoxious and offensive, and that any idea of working on himself didn't feature. There are pihranas in Denial.