Parents split up

Hi My parents split up just over 2 months ago which came as a total shock to me, I didn't see it come at all, as far as I knew they were fine. There were no obvious signs no arguments, no distance or issues that could of put strain on there relationship and they've always supported each other through everything. the night before they broke up they were snuggled on the sofa together watching tv both happy. I came home from school to find my mum inconsolable saying that my dad had left, she was too upset to say why. I didn't hear from my dad for more then 12 hours ( it's was a very sleepless night) until he called me the next day. To this day I still don't know why they have broken up and they refuse to speak to each other. i don't if it's because they are trying to protect me and my younger brother and sister or what but I kind of feel I need to know. Not the full details but a reason is be nice! In the week we stay with my mum in our family home and at the weekends we go to my dads to his rented apartment. Both my parents aren't coping but they still manage to go to work. My mum is tearful all the time I'm really worried about her she hardly eating and doesn't sleep at night. I really worry about her. my dad is just recluse he won't go out at al unless it's to work or food shopping. Neither will help them selves and they don't like my idea of marriage counselling which I think would help and get some normality bk. My younger brother who's 13 is rebelling, pushing every boundery possible by buncking school, smoking, getting detentions. I really worried he'll end up getting suspended or worse. Thankfully my little sister whos 11 is adapting really well and is taking it all in her stride, as long as she sees both my parents she's ok. I'm really trying to be patient with them both but my frustration anxiety is getting worse. I was wondering if his was normal? Should I not know why for my own sanity? Or is there anyone here who has separated/divorced parents and like me have no answers? I can't help but feel this will go on forever.

LILY31 you have the right idea although some might not agree. Marriage counseling can work if both parents are on board.

LILY31 kudos to you for being the strong one here. If you need to vent or talk more we'll try to help.

Your younger brother is taking advantage of the opportunity to no-holds-barred 'make like a teenager/independent' without the usual supervision and constraints *plus* - whilst partying off the tracks - trying to force your parents to have to unite, at least parentally (a start), to 'sort him out' (after all, it's only a matter of time before they get called before the headmaster/mistress, isn't it...AND HE KNOWS THEY'LL KNOW THAT, note), *plus* meantime punish them ("see what happens when you X?"). So clearly you and he are on the same page in the same boat, despite your ideas of going about things differ. I think you need to sit him down and ask him to team up with you towards finding a less messy solution to the fact he and you have been selfishly (- albeit understandably in the short-term-present circumstances) left totally in the highly anxiety-making dark over what happened, how, why, and what's likely to happen from here. For example, you could both or all three write them a letter which you duplicate and send (post, not hand) to each separately? Alternatively/additionally, do you and he have an aunt and/or uncle or other close relative you could go and see, with a view to their intervening and/or taking up the slack on yours and your parents' behalf? But, no, it won't go on like this forever, that's impossible. And, me, I rather think there's hope to be had in the fact that neither of them will 'plant their flag', so to speak, in front of you kids. Think about it: if the reason behind this blow-up were so serious it had to mean permanent separation into divorce for-sure, I'm betting they would have felt they had no choice but to say so. So clearly not even *they* know what they're doing or where they're headed. See what I'm saying? By the way - you said they were snuggling happily as they watched TV. Was this routine or had you noticed them getting far closer and more cuddly and kissy lately - even just slightly - than you'd ever before witnessed? Also, did they have you quite young and/or quite soon after marrying?

Thanks for the replies. Firstly my brother has always pushed the boundaries right from when he was little dispite the fact my parents always being consistent with discipline, their not lazy parents! He's been to see counsellors before but never really got anywhere or found one he's liked, I personally think he suffers from depression. He's exceptionally bright so he's bored at school, therefore acts out and he knows what he's doing. whether he'll listen to me if I tried to talk to him ...i don't know. I have learnt not to argue with him and just try to be nice and Once in a blue moon, he'll let his barriers down and he'll open up to me. Both sets of grandparents died a few years ago, my dad is an only child. My parents have friends but not really close family friends. I do have an aunt, my mum sister, who I have thought about contacting, she lives quite far away. my mum has been to stay with her recently to get away, but I have no idea if they have talked about what's going on. My kind of boyfriend/close friend (were not quite official yet) has offered to drive me down to see my aunt, so maybe that is an option but other then a nice day out, I don't think I'll get much information, just a listening ear. Having said that my dad is weird about me going out at the weekends and I feel guilty leaving my brother and sister with him because he doesn't do anything with them, so they constantly bored and will argue. Snuggling on the sofa was definitely a routine thing, theyve always been quite affectionate with each other. It was on a Friday when they split up, I was at school, but my mum had the day off work and my dad was taking the afternoon off - so I've kind of let my imagination run wild as to what could of happened in those few hours till I returned home from school but I have no other clues. They got married quite young around 22, but because they both have professional jobs my dads a gp, mum is a teacher they didn't have me till they were both 30. All I keep thinking is it's going to end in divorce and it's crap +0(

(Sorry for the delay.) Well, the reason you're thinking that is no doubt due to the fact your mind thinks knowing where you stand (and thereby where you're headed) - even if not the desired outcome - is far preferable to being trapped in Limbo and not knowing a thing. Common stuff. It doesn't make your fear true, though, and - commensurate with all you say about this coming out of the Blue without *any* pre-indicators whatsoever (which you'd have been bound to have sensed even slightly) - I don't get a feeling that these two people had any insitu or developing marital problem worthy enough of the Big D. So I think it's probably just a fight, *quite possibly* their first ever, really big fight (replete with testing of strength and each other's boundaries via a stand-off), what with the fact they'd have had very frenetic lives with such demanding careers atop of everything else, meaning, quite possibly bypassed that particular element in their bond development process, originally...until now, you three having hit a certain degree of independence. Re your bro: Yes, previously brother was a rebel without a cause (bar being in the teen stage, type willful male). This time he feels freer under justification because this time he (as he sees it) *does* have a cause. The 'inch' has therefore become a 'mile' (as per the saying about men - Give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile). I doubt your parents were lazy. You don't have to be lazy to find some teenagers and their constant pushing, testing and general aggro totally exhausting. Just human. Even the BEST parents at some point start tearing their hair out before falling in a defeated heap; it's very hard to be consistent with the upholdance of rules when you have too many other, equally important things in life vying for your attention ("Not now, son, I'm paying the bills!") and there are only so many times a parent can keep repeating his or herself when up against a stubbornly defiant kid with superior amounts of energy and a far more determined ego, programmed to constantly keep trying it on, including repeatedly eschewing routine rules and expectations the minute you think it safe to look the other way (e.g. 'Yeah, I know yesterday you said take your shoes off at the door but I didn't know that meant I had to do it *every* day' / 'Oh, did you *not*, Forrest...right-o.'). I would have thought now were a time when he'd want to let his barriers down - wouldn't you? Worth a try, anyway - right? Tip: Try approaching him when he's in bed, lights already out; this atmosphere will encourage mental intimacy and openness (- think back to sleepovers where you and your friend(s) suddenly get very real and heartfelt in the minutes before you drop off). PS: I doubt he'll end up suspended, not once the school learn of the serious home disruption going on at the time (which by then they probably would). Re involving an adult: Your mum's sister would be PERFECT! All you have to say to her is that you appreciate that mum and dad have their own wounds to tend to at the moment and, due to that, have forgotten to or can't face taking yours and your siblings need-to-know into consideration (yet), but that the ignorance over what's happened and why OR what they each intend, and the limbo it's thereby putting you three in, is killing you all - could she help, does she know anything that could put your three's minds at rest or at least give you *some* idea of where you stand more than not?...or at least speak to your mum and urge her to think about your present welfares? Your boyfriend sounds like a total sweetie, by the way. Very thoughtful and considerate. :-) That'll help massively. What do you mean, your dad's weird about you going out at weekends? How old are you, if you don't mind my asking? Clearly you're old enough to have a dependable boyfriend (which must mean he's a steady), yet I don't see you stating dad being weird about that part. So if you're not so young as to warrant his 'feeling weird' about you and your boyfriend visiting one of your rellies (which is perfectly bog-standard when you have a new bf or the relationship's hit the stage where introductions are due or even growing over-tardy) then I have to wonder whether it truthfully has more to do with his wanting you ever present, at his side, to pose as co-'crowd control'. That would fit with the typical mindset of the estranged husband/father that's having trouble accepting his new status quo (when that's what it is) and hasn't ever before had practise at being in 100% sole charge and attendance thus needs someone-anyone female, even his eldest or most responsible child, to stand-in as anywhere between the mum-figure or moral supporter (or even just as 'ideas person'). But that's *his* (adult) problem and *his* (adult) learning curve to conquer, not yours. Because you're not an adult yet. He could ask outright, nicely, and then accept whatever your answer were (yes / no / just this once / once in a while, maybe) - sure. But he can't impose under an assumption that you automatically agree to grow up before your time (to that level, I mean). Anyway, couldn't you and boyfriend take your siblings with you, i.e. does it have to be an all-weekend jaunt, can it not be just a day visit? Maybe your dad would even *appreciate* one or more days to himself, to do some thinking or personal organising, considering he (I presume) normally works all week, every week, having only the precious weekends to cram everything in? In fact, you could couch the suggestion as if for his benefit (i.e. make his ego work with you), a la, 'I want bf to meet Auntie X so we thought we'd call in on her for lunch on Saturday or Sunday...I was wondering if you'd like me to take X and Y with me, give you a bit of a much-needed breather?'. ****** Back to the state of your parents' relationship: Look at the clues: 1. Where is your mum trying to punish your dad by making his custody days anywhere between a giant headache and a no-go? (Even a saint can too easily fall prey to such Tweedledee and Tweedledum nonsense at their very early-on stage in this conflict.) Answer: nowhere, she's being perfectly cooperative and accommodatory towards him. So evidence says she's not furious with him nor feeling like there's no longer any relationship to protect and, thereby, any cordiality to preserve. 2. Likewise, where's your dad trying to punish her by being unreliable on that 'turning-up to collect or being in to receive' score? Again - nowhere. So neither is he furious with her and putting any reconciliation chance in jeopardy, either. (See? It's looking better already. :-)) 3. They won't plant their flags, let alone in front of you three. 4. Neither is Auntie feeling there's any adult onus on her at present to contact *you*. 5. Neither parent is acting like they've just escaped from prison, going liberation-crazy and partying it up. When you know you're absolutely done with someone, YES, there is grief. But first - and background continuously from there - there's massive relief. Do you see evidence of any relief on either parent's part? I don't, I just (granted - courtesy of you) see two people who are hurting *still*, to the point of paralysed and not wanting to state intentions beyond the now. 6. Your father isn't approaching these weekends like it's going to become his permanent remit; he's getting you to do it *and* to a degree that has him 'feeling weird about you going out weekends'. He's not even *remotely* trying to start the supposed new lifestyle routine! This could very well be because he deep down knows it's not going to be a permanent thing. See how many giveaway clues there are? I ain't even finished yet... 7. 'Routine snugglers on the sofa' are not typically 'headed for a break-up-ers'. Nope. People these days tend to leave emotionally first, in order subconsciously to ensure that the real deal, the 'once-impossible', of one of them packing and actually walking out the door *permanently*, isn't unachievable when up against having to face such a massive emotional wrench married with considerable fear of the unknown re the near and far future. Snuggling a lot in the run-up would defeat this object. And you said yourself there were no indicators, not even ones that could AND WOULD have leaked out from behind the 'net curtains' whereby your radar would have picked up on them. 8. Maybe she wasn't "too upset" to say why. Maybe it's more to do with the fact she knew she'd feel stupid to see you, her own child, afterwards going, 'Tsk, for god's sake, what a pair, I had no idea you two could be so **childish!'. And/or maybe she didn't know WHAT to say because - never having had the practise for getting good at having real humdingers before (not until suddenly you kids eased off a bit and gave them more room to re-start their previously put-on-ice romance, hence taking off an afternoon together?) - neither of them know what's supposed to happen in this situation, including how to handle the aftermath? Well, **methinks you do now. And that's part of growing up, anyway, at the best of times, despite doesn't normally crash in this violently: you suddenly start to have it dawn on you that grown-ups - even your own parents - whenever emotionally over-roused, can be as behaviourally tw*tty as the next person. Age is no guarantor against that. They just know more stuff and can do more stuff and know how to play the great social pretence game of 'being a respectable grown-up'. Put it this way: me, I've never met one true grown-up yet! Hope I've given you food for thought that's a bit more positive, and do keep us all abreast of things as they develop, won't you. :-)

Soulmate, thank you I have taken in what you have said and it's has helped and made me look at this in a different ways, rather then dreading divorce.it's got me thinking and given me hope! Even though over the weekend I found out my parents are selling the family home, so unbeknown to me there has been communication via email but only on this topic. who knows what this means apprently they were considering moving before they broke up. I don't know if this mean a potential new beginning if they do ever get bk together? That's me trying to look at it positively...I'm actually hoping the house never gets sold. It won't be so much of an upheaval for me really as I'll be going to uni next yr (I'm 18) for my bro and sis. I will have to try that on my brother by talking to him in a more relaxed atmosphere e.g. just before bedtime. Like you said I like that idea, he might surprise me and be more compliant. What I meant was by my dad acting weird about me going out, was when they first split up he was very up tight about me going out with friends etc. But I think he was struggling being on his own in the week and just wanted us with him not that he did anything to entertain us. So I didn't have a social life for a number of weeks and just saw my friends at school. He's slowly relaxing now. I wasn't dating my bf at the time, when this all started, we only got together very recently, my dad actually really likes my boyfriend. Although I think he's dying to give me a lecture on being safe dispite my age and we're no where near that stage yet! I'm speaking to my aunt tomoorrow, my boyfriend is keeping this weekend free incase we need to drive to her there would be no issue in siblings coming. I might surgest it to my mum first and sell it as a nice day trip to the seaside and see if she goes with it.

"Even though over the weekend I found out my parents are selling the family home, so unbeknown to me there has been communication via email but only on this topic. who knows what this means apprently THEY WERE CONSIDERING MOVING BEFORE THEY BROKE UP." Hah, I bloody knew it - they're just busy playing Poker! And even then, their bluffs are apparently fake thus without risk or forfeit! Late Onset (Relationship) Rebellion. Don't worry, they'll calm down and see sense soon enough, I'd bet my house on it now you've told me that. Don't tell them I said this or quote me on it (they'd only deny it anyway), but I reckon they're perversely enjoying this on a deeper level. And also (noddalodda people know this), humdingers are usually both a form of rush-job in terms of bonding catch-ups/fast-forwarding and even more usually, underneath it all, a giant form of foreplay. (Sorry...realising I've probably just made you conjure up an image you'd rather not look at, LOL!) PS: Then boyfriend's even MORE of a diamond! Take a quick stroll around this forum and you'll appreciate him even more than you do already. Excellent selector skills on your part, btw, given, one would think, your inexperience-based ignorance - kudos, that's no mean feat at your young age and stage considering there are women (and men) everywhere whom, despite thrice your age, keep attracting and choosing selfish and self-obsessed idiots, over and over! PPS: Er.... you SURE-sure-sure you want to take mum with you? Don't you think that might make Auntie feel inhibited and constrained, as opposed to the looser-lippedness you're after? Or are you betting on them chatting some more together about the ins and outs of what's what, whereby you could (cough!) accidentally overhear from behind the sofa ("I was trying to find my contact lens...and then really wasn't sure about whether or not to show myself because you two had started talking in confidence" ;-))? I mean - fair enough if you do. You're entitled to be put in a picture that directly affects you as well as them so, if neither of your parents are doing that duty - you help yourself with Nature's blessing! I.e. just as justice and punishment would fall back to ordinary members of society and 'jungle law' if ever the Police were to down-tools, the same rule applies where parents aren't executing whichever of their parental duties, reasons of temporary emotional and intellectual incapacitation or not. Just don't ever let the new-found power go to your head. ;-) ...because, of course, with power comes the R word (ugh) and, if your age still ends in the word 'teen', you're not supposed to have finished being moreover light-footed and carefree just yet (present enforced circumstance excepted, obvs). You're very welcome, not least because you're too obviously a very caring, considerate and mature young lady. Let us know how the visit goes? :-)

Thanks again Soulmate, I see what you mean about getting my mum to go and if that was a gd idea. I was thinking more of just sitting down with my mum and aunt and having a talk and seeing if my mum would tell me. I don't know if that Niave of me Or if it would of worked. But my mum doesn't want to go at the weekend anyway so I'm going with my bf instead. Yeah he is very lovely and willing and just wants to get me happy. I don't expect my aunt knows much but I will let you know how it's goes .

You're very welcome again, Lily31. And I think it's probably a good thing your mum doesn't want to join you because her presence might well have posed as an inhibitor to your aunt's freedom of speech. Speak soon, then! :-)

Soulmate , I posted this the other day , what's your view? I realise I might be wrong and just imagined it. I've not confronted either of my parents on this yet, as I'm waiting till I see my aunt over the weekend. It's half term at school next week to so Ive got a week off to got my head around things if I'm right. lily Posted by LILY31 on Oct 20 2016 at 01:16 (GMT) Hi, I was at my dad work place this afternoon, I go there sometimes after school and help out on reception or do some filing, my dads a gp. At the end of surgery my dad walks into reception with a nurse I've never met before. As they carried on talking I couldn't help but notice that is nurse was really flirting with my dad, She kept on laughing at everything he said, he wasn't being that witty and kept touching his arm. My dad is not a touchy feely person and normally, he'd get a bit uncomfortable but he didn't and I don't know, he just seemed to be looking at her in an odd way. He then introduced me to her and I said hi but she didn't seem that interested and carried in talking to my dad. When my dad and the nurse left reception got a bit tearful , I'm slightly sensitive at the moment! and one of the reception ladies, who I know really well asked me what was wrong. I asked her if she knew that my parents had split up and she was really shocked and said no but wondered why she hadn't seen my mum around the surgery, she alway used to pop in to the surgery. She asked why they broke up and I told I had no idea and that my parents were being really secretive about it. We had a bit of a heart to heart and I asked about this new nurse, she's a locum nurse who started at the beginning of the end of spring , my parents broke up at the beginning of the summer. I feel like I'm a detective! I talked to my boyfriend about this evening, I was being a bit quiet, and he thinks I'm over analysing, which I do, do but I can't stop because to me it all fits. My boyfriend pointed out that my dad really wouldn't make it that obvious, if he was in a relationship with this nurse. I don't know, it could be his odd/guilty way of trying to tell me. To me it all fits and I want to talk to my dad about this but I'm scared he'll get angry and think I'm accusing him if I'm wrong ? but he and my mum haven't left me with much choice but to speculate or question things. What should I do? Does it sound like I'm being silly? I just feel so sad that some one else had potentially come between my parents marriage and was hoping this would not be the outcome. Thanks for reading.

(Are you saying you thought you'd already posted that message, yet it somehow didn't 'take'?) Predator. Yep. Trying to bag a man that's normally out of reach (in more ways than one) but, hopefully, not this time because he's doubled-up from his recent punch to the stomach so - here's my one chance! But I imagine she's always been like that, to a degree, and he's used to it? After all, you try imagining, being that woman and going from routinely business-like and non-flirty up until the Tuesdee but then all of a sudden switching permanently to touchy-feely, a*se-licky flirty on the Wednesdee...Wouldn't happen, would it; switch like that, you'd come over as mad as a box of frogs. So he must be used to it and used to ignoring it, but *would* at that point have had to have introduced her (basically because, reading between your lines, she was hanging around that bit too long). It also wouldn't, whilst he was in professional thus stiff-upper-lip mode (emotionality on the backburner, logical, objective mind very much to the fore), have escaped his notice - her having mostly blanked you. I have to say, though - had that been me, even at your age, I'd have found it too tempting to have said, 'Oh!...didn't realise you were wearing a hearing aid - I SAID PLEASED TO MEET YOU!!!'. (By now you can probably tell I don't like predators of whatever gender, can't you. LOL) But the more important point is, I cannot imagine that, had that flirting exhibition *meant* anything - in terms of feelings normally reciprocal - your father would have *dared* let the cat out of the bag like that...and to you of all people. I'm sure he'd have found some way, any way, to make her shut-up and back off. What I *wouldn't* put past him (or his subconscious, I should say) would be to fail to stop a woman he *doesn't* fancy back from making advances in front of you. Because then he can risk you making mum jealous enough to start re-showing her interest, yet with a totally clean conscience and, therefore, no fear of any confrontation over it and no fear of not coming across 100% genuine when (should it occur) denying her accusation. In other words, because your father and mother's relationship has, as a result of the lover's huge tiff, temporarily been developmentally shunted backwards, they're now like daters: he has to chase her and she has to bide her time and scrutiny before she, whoops!, gets out-run and netted yet *also, simultaneously* (due to the negative aspect of the fight) do the usual split-up dance steps as include 'treat her mean to make her keen' and 'play it cool'... which includes BEING FLIRTED WITH BY ANOTHER WOMAN ("Quick-quick, ask me back before stocks run out!"). Put it this way, I'd have been more worried if on the surface they'd *both* appeared strictly business-like and professional yet you were reporting that you'd seen stolen, loaded glances. Good, canny move on the pouring your heart out to the colleague front! Don't know if you were aware you were up to anything, either at the time or in hindsight, but, even if - thumbs-up! *Now* if that silly locum doesn't rein herself in, she'll have to suffer the constant "evils" or even end up having to work under very, off-putting-ly chilly conditions indeed. But - be careful not to take so much responsibility for everything as if you can't trust your parents to get back together under their own steam. They managed it the first time round, didn't they?...or you wouldn't exist. ;-) So try to be a bit more Que Sera about this to keep yourself balanced. You want mum and dad back together because *they* want it that way, surely? Anything else would be forced and false...and that wouldn't be a recipe for success, now, would it....could delay things. This is a process. It and they need to go at *it's* pace. Because they need to learn this particular dance routine IN ORDER to prove successful as a couple for the next phase. They need to risk each other, see themselves NOT lose each other after all....and then they'll have the particular strain of trust needed in order to feel certain that the other will definitely-DEFINITELY be there and be reliable for the other once they hit the final leg of their life journey as ends in "the" terminus to end all terminii (if you see what I'm saying?). This is an highly vital, mutual proving exercise so - if they're one of those couples that never had arguments or not enough, really, to notice and remark on then, they've got a lot of catching up to do in record time. Interfere in that at your own kicking-yourself-later peril. You're not *over*-analysing - no such thing! (Just ask Einstein, he who "over-analysed" for thirty long years about the one mystery, an "over-analysis" we modern beans are supremely grateful for!) What you *are* doing, though, is getting stuck, finding yourself up against a wall that has to be broken through - with MORE thought, not less...and thoughts that you're prepared to face without 'flooding' and quitting or blinkering on. So me, I'd say you're *under*-analysing (but, still pretty damn impressive for your age, I'll give you that!). "My boyfriend pointed out that my dad really wouldn't make it that obvious, if he was in a relationship with this nurse." THERE YA GO! I don't know if you'll believe me, but - hand on heart, I hadn't read that when I wrote my own take! I tend to want to use both aspects of my mind (logical and emotional) working together as a team, which means I like to reply as I go, without reading ahead, so as to deliberately facilitate my knee-jerk reaction and then, if my conscious re-think produces the exact same conclusion, know that I'm objectively right, that it was genuinely gut instinct doing the thinking. And I and boyfriend's calculations and insight (and experience) matched perfectly! Chances are, we can't *both* be wrong. But then - why would we? This is *your* inability to see the woods for the trees because [1] they're your own, meaning the 'trees' are right in your face (whereas we're up on the hill, looking down) and [2] you're under threat, and being stressed to that degree handicaps your ability to process correctly or 'all the way'. But that's not 'being silly', that's being normal and healthy! How's about this: instead of bothering that much to try to come to conclusions thus knacker yourself out, you just provide as much data as you can and feels pertinent, and let me and boyfriend, separately, provide you with the plausible conclusions? Trust me, if I spot *anything* fishy or indicative and which couldn't be put down to something perfectly innocent (as in 100% perfect fit, versus bad/difficult fit to something fishy or untoward) - I'll say so...even if at that moment you try to give me a hard time because you don't want to hear it and start getting "all unnecessary". I know cheaters inside-and-out, backwards-and-forwards, upside-down...strung up to a tree, ideally, (;-)). I'll spot something EASILY-PEASILY...and then add it to the whichever evidence table (Guilty - Don't Know Yet - Innocent). ...Although, when I say 'something', I do mean a SET of things because one can't possibly diagnose from one symptom alone and/or in isolation of other associative symptoms (I expect you know that, your dad being a doc, right?). Chillax, you now have two "b*tches" to delegate to. ;-D PS: Also/equally, she *might* just be sucking up in the quickest, "no-brainer-est" way possible because she's after a permanent job (fed up with locum-ing and/or likes that practise?) and believes that tack is the way to get asked or request-accepted to stay?

PPS: *Don't* say anything to your mum about it. And not just because it appears it doesn't mean anything/isn't worth worrying about or worrying your mum with- ...that'd be her playing right into his hands, anyway, see. If he wants to play it cocky and cool (before finding out it dun't work ;-)) with your mum in order to (- typically romantically inept or inexperienced blokie tack -) first try provoking her into contacting him "to talk about the price of beans" - he can do his OWN damn workload! Who does he think you are - Cerano Bergerac?! :-p He's not exactly James Bond, is he, your dad, LOL. I now wonder whether he even noticed or knew even if he did that what he was witnessing was flirting in the first place! (And there's another reason why you needn't worry at this juncture.) But anyway, that's what his type do as a first attempt. Men are programmed to be very energy efficient (if they expended too much energy unnecessarily they could have starved to death before the next kill/catch, and then their whole clan or camp would die alongside). E.g. - ever seen your boyfriend do something like...try to reach the remote control with his foot, rather than just get off his lazy bum to get it properly?...and only when it fails miserably (enter humiliation), do it the proper way? That's what you've got here with dad...well, that mixed with fear and uncertainty as would make him even more inept than normal.

Hi Soulmate, Saw my auntie yesterday, minus my bro and sis my dad had actually made plan to do something with them. My auntie is really friendly and when we arrived she made a big fuss over Tom and gave us lunch. I thought she and I were never going to get to talk properly But after lunch tom walked into the town centre she lives near by, he thought it was a good idea to leave us to it! Then we got talking. She was sad and angry on My behalf that myself and brother and sister know anything and how long this had been dragged out. she said had been debating on what to say to me but she told me It was only fair I knew and she could see I was so desperate to know something and she wanted to relief my stress. The reason! my parents are very confused about their feelings for each other, as in if they are still in love and want to continue in their marriage. They been trying really hard for months to try and work things out discreetly between them. I suppose this explains putting the house on the market, new start? My aunt says she thinks they're being silly, there's no real reasoning for all of this, theyre questioning things and if it's kind of like 'if it's not broken don't fix it' and they need to work a on their marriage and just keep going. She told my mum a lot of people go through this and question things. On the day my dad moved out they had an argument to which my dad packed is things and left. They never used to argue before so like you said, it was well due! A Huge part of me is so relieved to know this, it's like a huge weight has been lifted off my shoulders. I've now got my auntie to back me up and for support, along with tom and she says we're welcome to come stay with her anytime. at the same time though it's pretty gutting I don't know which way it will go! She said she'd speak to my parents indivially and tell them she's told me, I don't know how that will go down but I asked her now that I knew, how to I let me parent know - she was like leave that to me! I did mention this locum nurse to her but she didn't think much of it. she said as far as she knew this was purply between my parents, no one else is involved and neither more so my mum is in the right frame of mind to be looking else where! I still can't help but wonder but I'm slowly letting go of this. You could be right she could just be after a permanent job I thought about this and it makes sense. My dad is one of two partners at his surgery, he owns the building too, and he's also acting as practise manger not always ideal, as he's a grumpy git half the time but his bark is worse then his bite. (No not exactly James Bond! )This is till he can be bothered to hire a pm, so he hires and fires as and when so nurse hunting for job perfect sense. I will keep an eye though when I'm there next week! Then tom can back from town with a little something for me to cheer me up! And a little something for my aunt to say thanks for having him and giving him lunch, he was hardly there most of the time. My aunt practically melted in her chair at his guesture. She Then told me when she wasn't in the room, he was a keeper and to keep hold of him. I think so too! So I'm not waiting for one or both of my parent to approach me or do a family meeting thing. I haven't said anything to my brother and sister. It was such a good move, I feel so much more calmer. Thanks again!

What a wonderful auntie you've got there! I feel I've got 'Don't Know Yet' data... When you say your dad 'actually made plans with them', does that mean these plans suddenly surfaced, as in, the first you'd heard of them, and then only in direct response, timing-of-announcement wise, to your suggestion to give him Me Time or, something he'd planned before he could have had any clue of your own plan? Put it this way, when he said 'oh, but I've planned stuff already', or however he put it, did those plans (if appropriate to whatever activity) seem all sewn up in support of the impression, or were they more at mere idea stage...i.e. no tickets booked yet or whatever else you'd have expected to have seen already put into effect towards proving his idea had come first? Your parents have definitely been for too long neglecting the romantic side of their marriage, by the sounds of it. Or dad's been neglecting mum and giving mum nothing to respond and reciprocate to? I mean, vis-a-vis that nurse and (what sounded like) his total non-awareness - he's not exactly sensitive to hinting, is he. Oh dear...and (if neglect is true) your mum probably wants a white-knight-on-charger come "Bond, James Bond" style grand gesture and intensity of re-chasing/wooing exhibition from your dad... I suspect this is the other reason behind why the open-house invitation courtesy of your auntie. They'll need as much kid-free time as poss. *Especially* as your dad sounds like he *could* be too loath, still, to risk being left on his own with time on his hands where pessimistic thoughts can start 'knocking'... hence his seeming contradiction between wanting you to play quasi nanny/entertainer for him one minute, yet, the next, not wanting you to take them off his hands for such a protracted period. Take her up on it, is my advice. You've got a great excuse, it being half term week. Or better yet - when he comes to collect you all (am thinking, obligatory offer of cup of coffee) leave him and auntie alone while you three deliberately faff around with getting your coats and shoes on or get sucked back into whatever you were doing (boardgame, for example). Just a TINY bit of manipulation - or help - *or just being sensitive* enough to respond tactfully to cues, if you prefer - won't hurt. Those are the little things that *are* in yours and your siblings' control (and you know what they say about, taking care of the pennies meaning the pounds take care of themselves?). "he's a grumpy git half the time but his bark is worse then his bite." OH. Is he a clompy cat-kicking type, is that what you're saying? And does the cat he kicks, being the 'nearest', tend to be your mum, even without his realising it or that it upsets her more than she tends to let on? Tell me, did your mum get a promotion fairly recently, or something, some other boost or lifestyle change? Or the opposite - had cut hours or had plans to go part-time? Yep, keep your eyes peeled, absolutely. You're not powerless, you know, even IF you need to be careful not to take on more than is good for your still-developing mind. It's about finding a 'nearly-adult'-sized balance, as I say, as well as controlling only whatever things are typically always yours to control. See, despite it doesn't appear sensible in the long run, your brother still *is* manipulating only those things that come into his own kid-remit aspects, think about it...reason being: "You can't split up because I need you even MORE at this juncture, not less!". Trouble is, it's negativity/hassle, which is precisely what they DON'T need right now. So - right idea, wrong execution, tell him. BUT!...he needs not to shoot over to the other extreme - good as gold (or they might in their minds put it down to their being separated, making it appear a good and needed thing). He needs to be THE SAME but whereby nothing can have any ADULT-sized repercussions... just petty sorts of typical teenager stuff. And then, from the other angle, start to ask each parent separately for help with this/that/this (prep projects, for example), to make both parents realise they need to team up TIGHTER, for the purposes of GAIN (there's the difference that makes ALL the difference) because they see signs that son is suddenly starting to direct his clearly massive energies (unused, idle intellectual fuel with nothing but mischief-making as his challenge) towards Successville. He needs to show them a product of THEIR OWN success of union-ship, you see. Get what I'm getting at? But again, he's got to be subtle about it. "So I'm not waiting for one or both of my parent to approach me or do a family meeting thing. I haven't said anything to my brother and sister." No - do. [1] You need to be a tight, solid team (it'll send a subliminal message and encouragement to your folks) and [2] you already know what torture the sibs are under, and you have the antidote. Slightly spin it or nutshell it however you want so that their negative imaginations can't spot anything to give them any leverage for throwing paranoid, pessimistic thoughts at them from any angle, but - you can't complain about your parents keeping you in the horrid dark if you're then going to turn around and do the exact same thing to them - right? PS: Purply between my parents - ha-ha!, sounds like the name you'd give some alternative rock-band, LOL - catchy! Or was it a Freudian slip? ;-) PPS: A keeper for sure! Is he going to the same uni or one where you can long-distance it? PPPS: Be sure to brag in detail to dad about all the lovely wooing things Tom does...give him ideas. The guy obviously relies on your maturity of input so - there's how!

Hi soulmate, Yes my aunt is pretty awesome! She's had to go away for a few days, my cousin, her son, wife is pregnant and something has going on. But she's texting me every day and promised she will be talking to my parents as soon as by the weekend! I would go stay with her but tom and I aren't at that stage of sleeping in the same bed yet, we're still early days and she's would just assume out of embarrassment of not wanting to ask and put us in the same room! There's always a first time, I suppose. Unless I pass my driving test tomorrow then I could drive myself! Altough I'm unsure about the motorway and getting lost! She lives two hours away! You're right I thought about what you said about telling my brother and sister and I did tell them, I did soften it, i told them our parents had an argument and that I went to see our aunt and she's there to talk if they need her. I was expecting my brother to get angry kick off but he didn't. I think he was reassured and liked that someone was being honest with him. Btw way I tried taking to be brother just before bed like you said and it totally worked partly because I also made him a hot chocolate. We had quite a nice chat. then when I left his room my sister was like 'that's not fair where my hot chocolate?!' She Doesn't miss a any! Thinking about it, it was very sudden that my dad decided to do something with my brother and sister. He took them to London zoo and tried to get me to go too. And was like why are you going again? HE looked a bit worried. Oh no my dads not mean he's just a bit uptight sometimes. He's your typical English doctor he's very straight forward which some ppl like him and some don't and he's very aware of that and doesn't care! But there is a softer side too. My dad was fairly romantic before all this, he used o buy my mum flowers every Friday without fail and they alway went out for dinner once a month without fail. So I don't know what their missing from their relationship. My mum alway used to put him back in his place in her very sutle, nice kind of way. My mum is a teacher, she has changed jobs and started at a new school in September. She now teaches year 5 kids where she used to teach year one. Think she got a bit bored of teaching abc's all the time and wanted a change does that tell you anything? She's the opersie to my dad and is a lot softer, very caring, she asks if I'm ok about 100 times a day! Bit annoying. I think it's toms intention to go to uni, we wouldn't be going till next year still got a year of levels to get through. But if hope it the unis would be close enough. I don't think he's going to be a short term bf I know you can never tell but I really like him. He's into psychology but Hes also a very, very good chef, which I found out the other day! I'm having a problem with my best friend at the moment she's gone all jealous because of me and tom, just what I need! could you possibly read my post 'what did I do wrong' wouldn't normally ask but the whole thing has escalated! So there are two parts! really like appreciate your advice on that problem? Could post it here if you want? you've made me look at things from a different angles quite a few times which has really helped. Thank you soulmate you've really helped lily xx

Soulmate, sorry if I'm not meant to do this but just so you don't have to go scearching for the post, this is my other problem re my best friend, which I posted Saturday I think . appreciate any advice. Relationship advice forum category advice forum category Hi, This is to do with my best friend. We have been best buddies since nursery, and we've always been really close, never really fallen or not that I can remember. Until now lol. Recently I got with my current boyfriend and her bf dumped her not long after. Awkward! There were very clear signs he wasn't that interested in her anymore, Like going out with his friends more then her, not showing her any affection and when they did go out, he was always really late I'm meeting her, which drove her mad! She could see the signs but she ignored them, hoping she could improve things with him. She started planning a holiday for them to go on next year when we finish school for good, which her bf really wasn't keen on and he made that pretty obvious. My friends and I tried to tell her this was not a good idea but she didn't listen. In the end my boyfriend tom who is good his friends with her bf, had a word and told him he needed to be honest with her and it wasn't fair he was dragging this out. I didn't instigate this btw it was between them, If she knew this I think she would think I did. It ended badly for her and My friends and I were there for her. But ever since, she's absolutely hated the fact that I'm in a new relationship with a really nice, caring guy. She's very good at making me feel bad when I see him, and any nice sweet guesture Tom makes towards me, she doesn't like and has to comment. At the same time, she's quite nosey about our relationship, Like, are we sleeping together yet? Have we had our first argument yet? (no to both!) . I'm quite shy and I don't really feel it's her business but she's gets annoyed when I don't give her the nitty gritty. Really there's is nothing to tell! Last week at school she asked if we could hang out this weekend, go shopping as our other two close friends are busy . I said I couldn't and apologised and before I could give an explanation, she rolled her eyes and said 'oh you're probably going out put with tom aren't you? What a b***dy surprise' . Then walked off! Yes, I was going somewhere with Tom, we were going to see my aunt about my parents recent separation; so it was a really important visit to me. Tom had offered to drive me, give me a bit of moral support and make it into a day trip to the seaside. I didn't say anymore because the whole topic is too raw and she had made it really awkward. tbh I thought if she's going to be rude and just make assumptions, why bother telling her? So yesterday in toms car on the way there, she starts texting me, trying to make feel bad and asked couldn't I spare a morning or afternoon with her? Did I have to see Tom all day? I admittedly didn't text her back, I was already worrying about what I was going to find out that day. I could also sense she was looking for an argument. It was quite a hard day at my aunts, emotionally draining. When I got back last night I called her, to tell her where I had been that day and explain why I hadnt answered her texts. She was really angry with me and started shouting at me saying I had changed since I had been with Tom and I have no time for her and our other two friends anymore. So I told her I couldn't speak to her when she's being like this and I ended the call. She knows about my parents splitting up and how it's been really stressful for me at the moment, she could of let me explain, Rather then shout about it. Maybe I should of told her but she keeps making me feel bad the moment I utter Tom's name and her facial expression is a picture! It's half term next week and she and I had made plans but I think she's needs the week to cool off! I don't know if my other two close friend feel this. Also one of them is also a realatship and she's not like this with her, why me?. We're 18 not 8 fgs! Thanks for read anyways.

Soulmate And this is part two, what happened today :( -"apologies again if what I'm doing is bad. Urge...it continues! I met up with my friend today. she sent a text last night and asked if we were still meeting up still or I had made other plans now with Tom now ? I was a bit annoyed at how the text was worded but I remembered what you guys said, stayed patient and reminded myself she was just upset and lashing out, which really helped, so thanks again! We arranged to meet in the afternoon. This morning went I was helping out at my dads work place, it was crazy busy and a patient had shouted at me because their prescription wasn't ready. All the doctors refused to sign it till the end of morning, (which is a rule within the practice) the patient then went mad and stormed into my dads room, whilst he had a patient In there and complained to him! And my dad gave me a lecture! Ffs. Yeah thanks dad for not backing me up. So I was already stressed before meeting my friend. Anyways tom came in to say hi on his lunch break, which really cheered me up.I told him I was worried as I was going to be really late meeting my friend, so he said he'd drop me off in town. Remember, my friends ex bf was always late in meeting her and it really annoyed her. So problem solved. We met her in the car park and she sees me get out of toms car and her face is like thunder and she give me this look at if to say 'oh-my-god-I can't-believe-you-brought-him-with-you!' She looked so relieved when I told her tom was just on his lunch break and going back to work and I would that of been really late if he haven't of given me lift and she was then ok. I had decided I wasn't going to bring up anything about the weekend unless she did. She was semi normal with me whilst shopping and we both slowly relaxed in each other's company and went back to normal. When we were done shopping we went to Starbucks and I asked her how she was with the break up. I thought I needed to check up on her and she clearly needed to talk, as she talked a lot , and I honestly didn't mind listening. Then she asked me the question I now dread her asking me. what I was doing at the weekend ? I said I was free Saturday, thinking if I just told her when I was free that there would be no bad feelings and there would be no repeat of last wkend. But she ignored my answer, then asked about Sunday. so I said I was seeing tom and she gave me her usual look that makes me feel really bad and then she said can't you see him Saturday? As she was busy on Sunday. I explained tom was working then, so no I couldn't. I then asked her if she could please stop making me feel bad about seeing tom and how it makes me feel really uncomfortable. She went completely on the defensive, saying she wasn't making me feel bad. I was the one who had changed not her, and hung up on her the other night. And all I seem to do is rub my relationship in her face. Then she used the example of when tom dropped me off that afternoon. I thought that was sorted, so I reminded her I would of been late and She said she'd rather me be late, which is a load of crap. She then said all I had to do was swap things around, and how she would of done it for me. or could tom see if he could swap days at his work. I told her I didn't see why tom should have to swap his days off or why I should ask him. I didn't dare tell her we had made plans already :-/. Then she said well f**k off then, if you can't be bothered and then just walked off and left me! Then whilst I was still sitting there one of my friends texts me and asks what's going on because holly is really upset. I told her and she didn't reply, clearly she's sided with her. I don't know about my other friend yet. It's just so stupid and childish. I can't win! I really tried not to react to this, which btw was all said in very low hushed tone were a couple of chavs who seek attention in public lol. I was nice and listened to her, and sympathised because she said struggling and misses her ex. I tried to protect her with my weekend plans that involve tom but she choose to question me and still makes me feel bad, then when she didn't get what she wanted and she tells me to F**k off! I wish I could of recorded it so my other two friends could hear how silly it was. I've got a driving test tomorrow, which I'm so not in the mood to do now. I was hoping going to pass first time, don't think I will now. And I'm so not looking forward to going back to school next week. Please be honest with me guys, so I can try and get this sorted, where have I gone wrong ? Do I really sound that horrible that I deserve to be told to F off? What does she want me to do not see tom at all? I'm really upset and just want my friend back L x

* were Not a couple of chavs

I'll have to be quick - got a lot on today - but here's my interim response: 1. Do you have to take Tom with you, rather than just the sibs, and get the coach or train or have auntie come collect? But no matter if she's promised to keep in regular touch; that's the important bit. (You sleep with Tom only when you find yourself inviting him to do so without thinking, i.e. feels entirely natural and time to. Do it sooner and you might, the pair of you, disturb thus delay your own bonding process. You're clearly very natural and sensible, NEVER doubt yourself and your instincts. Ever.) 2. I expect what your brother was most relieved about was that two people (you and auntie) bigger and more responsible had taken the reins, meaning, he can now relax somewhat. 3. Ha-ha, will do anything for hot chocolate, eh? ;-) (Did you make your sister one in the end?) 4. So it wasn't a pre-planned zoo visit, just a knee-jerk one. Noted. 5. Okay, *not* neglect, then. Just a very overdue, bonding type of humdinger between a diplomat and 'tell it straight' merchant. Good. 6. Ah-hah - new job! And a rise in confidence, including when it comes to self-asserting, standing up for herself and her rights. Noted again. I imagine she went overboard...but that's still just conjecture at this point (will watch this space for more clues...keep talking). 7. Asks after you repeatedly. Over-giver. Noted. A case of 'same play, different co-stars and only slightly different plot and script', is now starting to emerge. Has your dad, do you think, been a bit of a take-taker? PS: You're supposed to find her annoying at this juncture (and her, you), it's how nature pulls you apart more, ready for your departure from the nest without too many tears and regret. All normal and healthy. (8. Tom certainly isn't acting like a short-term bf, he's acting like he's in it for the long haul (answer to your 'I know you can never tell': wanna bet? ;-)). So I wouldn't worry. PS: friend just doesn't want to get pushed out then lose you, ergo Tom is a rival; just reassure her. Meantime, I'll look at your above post about it first chance I get (tomorrow, probably). PPS: No need to thank me, it's purely my social obligation according to the laws of Nature as one of many camp elders to advise um camp youngers around um camp fire...if you appreciate what I'm saying. Try not to worry about bessie mate or feel there's any urgency, yours is a natural, necessary fight as well, her condensed way of increasing *yours and her* bond. 'It's always alright in the end. So if things aren't alright yet - it simply isn't the end yet' - ber-bom! Say it 15 times (not joking, please do it - ta.) Back soon. Best not to post again until I do or it'll get confusing. Sit tight, won't forget you, and once I start something to a certain depth I couldn't pull out even if I wanted to (don't want to, just saying). 'Laters!'

Soulmate with regards to my best friend, it's a 2 part problem, posted above for you. I look forward to reading your reasonings and having a clearer understanding and mind! By the way despite everything, I passed my driving test today...just, lol :-D freedom and more independence here I come ! Bye Lily x

Well done! Get lots of practise in, driving solo just around your immediate neighbourhood, and then it won't be long until you've the confidence to drive yourself down to auntie's whenever you fancy it. PS: she married? I only ask because I noted no mention of any husband/uncle? Sorry for the delay, btw. I had a difficult surgical molar extraction on Thursday (shattered at the root in three places, with one of the roots reaching up as far as into my front sinus/cheekbone - cuh, typical difficult me!) so was out for the count, pain-wise, all day Thursday and yesterday... didn't realise it was going to be so severe or that I was going to look and feel exactly like I'd gone a few rounds with Mike Tyson! First post: Re your friend and you: Since nursery... Let's face it, then - she's more your sister. Yep - why *wouldn't* she feel very threatened by what crystal-clearly is a non-typically mature and steady new relationship - *particularly* as hers just went belly-up - which, therefore, could quite possibly push her out of your life (no coupledom in common) or to the back of the priorities queue, just when she thinks she needs you most? But is she aware of the trouble you're undergoing at home? If she is then she's being very selfish as well as demonstrating that you and she had a bit of a, respectively, provider-dependent dynamic going on for too long, whereby now it's too difficult to make the very abrupt switch to taking a back seat in your life. But I wouldn't take it too seriously, as I say. She's just struggling with the new status quo and hasn't adjusted her psyche and lifestyle to it yet. But, she will. Common stuff. And she's obviously (whether just right now or as standard) a bit of an insecure control-freak to-boot because - it's the bloke's job to whisk away for a holiday, not the woman's. Yeah-yeah-yeah - "modern women, modern times" and all that BS. Well, no amount of Feminism can make a difference because the wiring that activates when romance walks in is still stuck back in caveman times ("Femi-WHAT?!"), meaning, you can be as go-getting in the working arena as you like but *not* in the romantic one. It just doesn't work, not if you're going to take *men's* choices away from them in the process of 'having it all' (no such thing anyway, it's just sales fluff for DOING IT ALL!). Not if you want the relationship to develop naturally and healthily to where it has longevity potential, anyway. He still Tarzan you still Jane, certainly when talking about behaviour/acts *that* meaty as subverts the what-should-be natural dynamic. It does nothing but make the man feel like HE'S the woman being wooed....Very emasculating, highly devoid of any challenging chasing and working (wooing) to keep.... Yawn & Emasulation City for any healthy, red-blooded male. So I'm not surprised he wasn't interested. He wants a nut to crack, not one that comes pre-shelled and on a plate. (Be a bit like an antelope walking up to a lion and saying, 'Eat me!'; where's the fun and excitement in that? Nowhere.) So the bloke, in his search to articulate WHY he isn't into a woman he should have been and ordinarily would be into on paper, comes up with vague and incomplete answers like 'she was too desperate' or 'she just didn't quite do it for me'. There'll be a bit of envy in there, too, I should imagine. At your ages, friendships include a lot of competitiveness. BUT... real friends know to keep a lid on that sort of thing and mainly feel happy for you and cheer you on. So maybe you and she have just outgrown each other? If you want a friendship to last for life then it has to have a solid foundation and first floor in common, not just a roof. And that foundation is called Core Morals. Aside from flexing a little in response to whatever situational adjustments, those things tend to stay with you for-life. That way, no amount of changes in either of your circumstances can affect the relationship or cast it asunder. But I can plainly see you're not squeaky clean in all this, either. You're encouraging her to panic. Example, when she started rolling her eyes and spitting the dummy, you could quite easily have said, 'Hang on a minute!' - or even roared a very loud 'STOOOOP!', and explained, *and* offered her something else/another time to make up for it - couldn't you? (I know you did it later, but I'm talking about at the time...being more efficient and preventative, rather than (like dad) curative.) Or emailed her soon after if she really wouldn't give you a chance to put her straight? Certainly *not* added insult to injury by failing to respond when she texted. So it sounds to me like you're quite prepared to let her go - or *think* you are - which she can sense happening and is struggling against for all she's worth, with the aid of a bit of emotional manipulation by showing her petulant hurt and resentment. Put it this way: if, hypothetically, something happened to Tom tomorrow, leaving you back on your tod in that regard, wouldn't *you* be upset if your 'sister', the one you thought you could automatically run to, was neglecting you? But maybe you wouldn't if you knew AND UNDERSTOOD exactly what she were dealing with, i.e. knew it wasn't anything personal and was for a really important cause? And then she wouldn't have had time to have worked herself up into a persecution-complexed lather. Because once someone gets that level of negativity and paranoia in their head, it's very difficult and time-consuming to UN-do it. I repeat: AS YOU CAN SEE, 'leaving her' does *not* cool her off and instead just achieves the opposite - ironically, the very climate you were trying to avoid yet has now grown TEN-fold. Next time, therefore, don't leave her for hours on end to her own negative, festering imagination; tell her then and there/at the time, p*ssed off with you initially for a few mins or not. Just let her get her 'p*ssed-off-ness' out of her system and out of the way so that she can be back her more normal, seeing-sense self. In short, you're inflaming and elongating the situation rather than sorting it. (She may 'know' about your situation, but has she got the level of empathy and insight to relate to it or realise exactly what it involves? Doesn't sound like it, does it.) Or you could even shut her up in one fell swoop by sending her a bouquet/chocs with a lovely note to reassure her that she's *not* suddenly transformed into someone whom everyone finds so automatically rejectable, at the same time thanking her in advance for her tolerance and patience during this very difficult, very full-on time. For example, 'Will you please stop panicking and just give me some room to sort my sh*t out? I'm only not involving you because you've your own sh*t right now and don't need mine on top. I'm *never* going to chuck you, not if I can help it. Because you're not just my friend, YOU'RE MY SISTER! So it's not a case of If (re us hanging out again), just When. But I'm really sorry the timing of our respective unhappy situations happened to clash like this. Bear with and remember I need you as much as you need me, please?' You could even be cleverer by suggesting a set-in-concrete, forward date. I mean, I imagine Tom has stuff of his own to do at least *sometimes*? (Again, I'm talking 'at the TIME', nipping potential animosity in the bud.) But before you even think of doing that - *do* you want to keep her friendship or don't you? Get that sorted in your mind first and then your behaviour to-suit will naturally follow (and naturally not p*ss her off). As it stands, you're demonstrating a split mind on that front so she's getting mixed messages and [wait for it] is as stuck in horrid Limbo as your parents have made *you* experience. At least give her a definite light to indicate where the end of the tunnel is, each time. Seeing it now? PS: The "But *I* want Sunday" was just a case of 'Which one do you love more?'. Think about it - you'd normally expect her to want the Saturday, wouldn't you. But I doubt the 'eff you!' incident would have got to that stage, had you dealt with her sooner. Again - seeing it? But...that doesn't make her conduct warranted or justified, no. Definitely not. There again, when DID headless chickens behave sensibly and like their normal selves? You're a natural-born leader, Lily. But people are over-estimating you. Because you never show them *your* weaknesses and fallibilities. That's all this is. Which leads me nicely onto... ********* "And my dad gave me a lecture! Ffs. Yeah thanks dad for not backing me up." Hmm. De-merit for dad. You're 18, not 38. And you're not even a formal employee. So who's to blame here? Is it a case of you having for too long sold yourself convincingly as Supergirl or him having for too long set that as the bar which you've then tried to rise to? Or if a bit of both - to what ratio? You've got a lot of 'putting people straight' still waiting in your intray, haven't you. So why aren't you doing it or doing it properly in one fell swoop? Why do you have this pattern of keeping you head down and hoping things will blow over by themselves? And why, at eighteen, aren't you saying to your dad, 'Now, look here, you, you've got a cheek?!...'? Do you not realise that at this juncture he would take it and back down immediately? And here's why: at root, all these people are trying to provoke you in whatever ways they can to take charge and care of *them*. This is all 'heelp meee!' style bullying going on here, not gratuitous cat-kicking, the object being to lure you into being the boss of them (because, "whaah!", they want their mummy, basically). Here's a golden phrase for you: 'What is it you want and feel entitled to from me that you feel you're not getting or not sufficiently getting?'. Making them voice their expectations out-loud like that will make people stop and think about whether whatever they are expecting is fair or decidedly the opposite (or even downright unrealistic). They're just too addled and panicked to monitor their own behaviour, that's all, despite are still capable of judging yours. To summarise, I think you've been doing too much and being too much to other people, more than was strictly age-appropriate, meaning, now that a huge project has landed in your in-tray you can no longer cope with the overall workload. Biting off more than you can chew. Finish whatever things you've started and then take a holiday (in Tom's pocket). OR - since he's clearly Mr Keenly# SuperHelpful with time and energy to spare - ask him for even more help and input? You'd do the same for him if the roles were reversed, wouldn't you? There you go, then. But here's the crux: who on earth told you that a particularly strong coin doesn't have a flipside? In actual fact, if you're "very strong" on one side then you're more likely to be accordingly "weak" to the exact same degree on the other, despite you may stay head-side up most of the time. If you'd done what I reckon you felt like doing with Holly at the time, which is BURST INTO TEARS, she'd have instantly seen the error of her ways and felt like a complete rotter AND IMMEDIATELY BACKED DOWN AND PROCEEDED FROM THEN ON WITH FAR MORE CARE AND CAUTION. In short, if you make like a huge rock then you're going to get people taking a break and sitting on you. Logical - right? Let them hear you make slight cracking noises from time to time or after any protracted sitting episode, and they'll jump off quick! Simples! *Send (or drop round) the chocs/bouquet*. Make her feel like the accidental, unwitting cad she is...but in the nicest, most embrace-able way possible.

Hi soulmate, No my aunts not married. she split up with her husband 20 something years ago after their second son was born, and he basically abandoned them and went to live in another country...nice. One of my cousins tracked him down but the other isn't bothered and doesn't want to know. She's had partners in the last but they never last long partly because she has early Parkinson's since her late fourties, she says she doesn't want anyone to have to look after as she gets older she'd rather go into a residential home. I think she desvers to be happy personally - all her past partners were nice. Yeah My friend is fully aware of what's going on at home she's the first person I told about my parents and she was, shocked but great in supporting me through their separation. So if I wasn't thinking straight she knew exactly why but when her bf dumped her she she still choose to make me feel bad about tom. Where as you'd think she'd be like encouraging and wanting me to have something good going for me. I have also tried spread out my time with both my friends and tom. At school he plays football with his mates most of the time, I have one lesson with him and he has a job too. So i didn't leave her our other two friend out. One thing I didn't want to do anyway friends are important! Also with stuff going on at home I don't feel like I've had time to change apart from feeling happier. She, Out of of my small group of friends (there is four of us) has received the most male attention because of her looks and she knows it and has never been scared to brag about it or admit it either. She hides behind her looks so I don't think past boyfriends ever got to see the real her. And now maybe as her best friend now I've got a bf and she hasn't she's probably not finding it easy? I agree, I'm not squeaky clean in all of this! I should have been more honest with her on the drive down to my aunts when she texted me. Even tom pointed out me to be she didn't actually know where we were going and if she knew she might back off and just to be straight with her. But I really didn't want to enter that because if it turned into an argument and I didn't think she would of been very reasonable about it. Now I can see what you mean by she went into a negitive mindset and was probably wound up all day. I didn't actually hang up on her I told her I was going to end the call if she didn't stop shouting and she carried on so I ended it. She was warned, I do have a bit of backbone! Normally I probably would of got upset but instead I thought F you too and went out with tom and my other friend to the pub instead! I think I might try and make up with her like you suggested and need to learn to deal with things when there happening not bury my head in the sand like you said. And Be more assertive? I did argue back with my dad after his stupid lecture, should of put that but I was trying to keep the post short! I find it a lot easier to do with my family! Pointing out that firstly he invented the 'no signing prescriptions or paperwork during times when gps are seeing patient', then he went back on his own rule?! What's the bloody point?! He also needs to look at this rule because he needs to realise the amount of pressure reception staff are put under when they are told no. He needs to back them/me up basically when a patient does gets irate. He was more annoyed that patient randomly walked into his room whilst his examining someone, but there was no way I could of stopped that, unless I sprinted and rugby tackled them! Even then he still probably would of told me off. Secondly he was busy for ages so I couldn't go to him first and he wasn't duty doctor that morning either. Thirdly I'm only there to help out! He doesn't pay me that much and I'm only really, at his request, only meant to do small thing like tea coffee, handing out prescriptions and just be a back up person for reception staff if it get busy. The problem is most of the patient know, I'm his daughter too (the inherited aurban hair and the fact I'm practically a female version of him is quite obvious!) and some are really nice and others think I can just go into his room and sweet talking him into signing their prescription. And lastly I'm happy to do admin things but I don't want to help out on reception again, too stressful. He shut up after that :) but it took him a day to see sense and apologise to me. So I can be feisty when I feel like it. L X

Soulmate on Friday this happened with re parents, I don't mean to confuse things it just happened unannounced! I know the actual reason now. My dad came round to the house on Friday and him and my mum spoke to the three of us. my aunt, although she doesn't know the full story, had demanded they talk to us or she'd be down asap to sort everything out. Ha go auntie! She's so cool, I love her. Sadly no laughing matter. Long story short, theyre not getting back together. They said things haven't been right for a while, they really tried for months but things had fizzled out and there was no spark. They hid and acted that very well, I'll give them that as that's not what it looked like from my perspective! secondly - this was the big shock, they have both met some one. this was my biggest fear :(...They're are claiming these to people are 'friends' , who they have not cheated on each other with, which I'm not sure if I can believe? They both met these people and before things started to develop, my parents discussed with each other honestly. I know it was probably a hard and confusing time for them but they could of been honest with us too or me at least! In the end it lead to an argument, which caused my dad to leave and them both being upset. I asked my dad if his 'friend' was the locum nurse I was with him and he said no. Phew! She looked like a right cow. I might add I want nothing to do withtheses 'friends'. I don't want to meet them and be nice to them , I don't want to know their names, what they look like, where they live. Nothing. And I told my parents, I don't want to know. Not yet. I'm far too upset and angry at the fact their not getting back together, let alone there are two other people involved. I have no idea if that's reasonable. Tom seems to think I might want to know soon! At the moment I can't see how they could sit there, two highly intelligent people and tell us this after keeping it tight lipped for so long, it feels like I don't know who they are anymore? I understand they might of been trying to work things out them selves but this feel like something off of a crappy day time talk show. I said they owe it to three of us to give us a break and get our heads round this, they had their chance to do this whilst acting depressed and emotional we have been left in limbo for ages. My aunt didn't even know about these 'friends', my mum said she didn't say anything to her, of course she didn't! which makes me wonder if they are being completely honest with us? One good out come is they think they can be very good friends. My sister asked them if they think they can be good friends, then why can't they be married? And she hopes their friends are horrible and ugly Poole so they'll get back together ha. Good question sis! But I guess having them as friend thats going to have to be enough and better then nothing. I went out on Friday on my own just to cool off a bit and get my head around things. I met tom in the evening told him everything whilst trying not to cry! and went out with him in he evening with friends and I stayed at his, his parents were away and I didn't want to go home! Even though we were little bit drunk and slept in the same bed he didn't try anything on ...infact I think I might of tried to make a move but he stopped me saying it wasn't the right time I was upset. I think I responded well! keeper. Yesterday I scoped up my sibs from home, tom was working, And took them out with me, they needed to have a bit of fun, this was whilst my parents continued to dwell on their own self pity or this is a guess, maybe gone to see their 'friends'. I don't want harry or Sophia at home or at my dads under the new strange atmosphere that been created without me, if I can help it. We are all talking civilly to my parents (well my brother is questionable!) but that's it. To say I'm feeling protective of my bro and sis is an understatement! Today tom has insisted it's ok they come out with us and I'm actually amazed he hasn't run a 1000 miles. I can't really see how he can support me in this. He hasn't met my bro and sis properly yet so this could be interesting but I think they're too upset to misbehave or embarrass me! We'll see it might give them some entertainment! What Are they trying to put us in therapy or something?! I'm beginning to think I'm going to need it! I don't really know if I've reacted in the right way or if I'm even being reasonable about these other two people involved. It's just a bit too much! Lily :( Hope I haven't bombarded you too much info I needed to get it off my chest too!

Nah, you haven't bombarded me. If you had, I'd have no compunction about just saying so, no worries. And that aligns with what I've been wanting to say to you: There is nothing wrong with being a control-freak or "superwoman/man" or *anything*. The great machine NEEDS a huge variation in cog types and sizes. As long as you do it right (especially whereby whenever you succeed/win, *everybody* side-benefits). So it's about knowing what's yours to super-control and what isn't, akin to the Serenity Prayer: 'God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference'. But it's not meant to be Black & White/All Or Nothing, meaning, you can do as much as is within your power and skill over everything/anything and then wait and SEE whether Fate/God worked with you in it (= however much success) or worked against you (= however much failure). Que Sera, Sera, at least you've DONE *your* responsibility or used *your* god-given talents, which is all that's asked of you. In a nutshell, always try properly and then you *can't* beat yourself over the head later if the outcome isn't the one you wanted (you were blocked and for a (always) good reason you just didn't have the crystal-ball to see). You're not sure which levers and dials are yours to manipulate. So you do everything and frequently "over" or "under". Saying that, your wisdom and finesse will grow more automatically with more experience. ****** What kind of woman would prefer strangers to wipe her nose and bum over a soulmate? Answer: one who never got given the practise and demonstrations of how to become truly intimate with a man. SCOOBY CLUE! How, we wonder, did that parental-example situation affect her sister, your mum? And did she transfer that into her marriage, either via her choice of man or how she treated him and signalled how she insisted on being treated? I think BOTH your parents, despite which triggered it, have entered (Mid Life) Crisis. Not hugely, but still... "The [figuratively-speaking] drugs don't work, I'm not pain-free, I'm still saddled with useless baggage, NOW what?!". I think your parents are academically advanced but emotionally and romantically behind their ages, MEANING, where other people's in-trays at their age are easy to manage, theirs contain too much "old and off stuff" that still demands to get read, understood, filed singly or in duplicate in whatever appropriate memory-to-present/future-operational files (so that they can better tackle their lives and lifestyles from here) (and some parents only realise the passage of time through their kids 'suddenly' hitting certain, unignorable/unmissable milestones, LIKE the firstborn leaving home and the 'little sweetie' suddenly behaving delinquently like a wayward semi-adult). Their emotional workloads are now crying out for attention, with the pair of them and their marriage the ones to suffer (for a while). I imagine they can't cope with the past stuff in that tray *and* the present and future workload of each other, simultaneously, on top of their demanding careers and family, hence have sensed they need to 'study' separately, yet without having understood or managed to articulate what's happening and why into 'word-thought' so - rather than hold their hands up to ignorance in front of their proud selves and each other - have pounced on the nearest plausible suspect: this heartache must stem from our union. In other words, they're presently just very confused and unable to pinpoint the truer source of their sense of discontent (their parents and upbringing). Some couples never do identify the truer cause and end up divorcing, only to have to get back together, cap-in-hand, anything up to 10 years later. (This escapes the statistical data, however, because these types typically tend to opt *not* to re-marry legally-officially whereby it gets data-recorded, but is still in reality far more prevalent than one would think.) Some do and save themselves that waste of time (albeit, saying that, in actual fact, no lesson is ever a waste...quite the opposite...albeit, does delay practical achievement/progress). I really don't think you have anything to worry about vis-a-vis your parents. I still think it's just a joint-developmental GAME (or exercise, if you prefer). Only, to them, it feels serious and so that's what's getting communicated to you and convincing you as equally as it is them. You need to tut and roll your eyes, vow that you and Tom or whomever will "NEVER act so pratty as all that", and then later down the line find out that, yes, you will (albeit probably to a far lesser degree), and couldn't stop yourself even if you tried. Human beings are at times complete tw*ts and always have been, and that is that is that. Sooner you (anyone) accept that multi-faceted-ness, the sooner you'll be happy and stay happy. ...Which leads me nicely onto Holly: if she's upset beyond a certain degree, Holly will be in prat mode, NOT thinking straight or expansively, and focused only on her OWN pain. You wouldn't expect someone in hospital with leg in traction to offer to get out of bed and do X for you or give away any of their precious painkillers so neither should you expect anything very helpful or sympathetic from her, either. She's in *psychological* hospital traction, see. 'Me-me-me!'. Same as you were focused on your own state-of-mind protection and preservation when electing to let her flounce off in that huff then stew and fester (and ditto your ignoring her texts in the car). You weren't thinking about her needs, only your own (albeit not to the same degree as her because you're obviously the stronger, more grown-up and more 'caretaking' one; she needs you more in that regard than you do her). She's not herself lately, in other words. None of you will be (ditto the varying degree part). You're ALL of you in 'me-me-me' mode. (To put it into a frame of easily-understood reference - you've badly stubbed your toe ...pure, all-consuming agony...and right at that moment someone asks you for input or help with something. Your response is going to naturally be nothing but 'Aaaaargh, EFF OFF!', no matter the exact phrasing or sentiment. That's what you've got going on here... along with other elements, like, her having misbelieved looks were everything or that hers made her more attractive thus keepable than you (so she's got some re-thinking and re-filing of old, mis-filed emotional sheets to do on top of her ongoing and new ones).) ...Except for good ol' Tom. But it'll be his turn at some point, don't you worry. We all ride the roughly same rollercoaster. I think you're perfectly assertive, actually. All you lack is simply knowing WHEN/HOW QUICKLY to assert. But you're squeaky-cleaner than most, that's for sure, to be able at your age to concede your own part played and self-examine and -criticise. Some people never manage that and die under a huge veil of illusions and self-delusions, not having been the type to have had smooth-running personal lives. ****** Ref 'what's the bloody point': I think your dad was just trying to cook up an excuse to go 'Whaaaaah!' and felt safe enough to do it to/in front of you. (He MUST do that with mum, surely?!) But if we ALL did that, the world would be a really crap place so - good, glad you 'gave it back'. ON THE OTHER HAND, *sometimes* the person behaves that way precisely BECAUSE they know you're 'good for it', i.e. will rear up at them in response, thereby giving them exactly what they were after - an excuse to have a steam-releasing barnie with a sparring partner. So you've got to learn to know when it's right to and when to refuse to, which relies on working out, from the seriousness of their situation, whether they've the wherewithal to resist and are just being self-gratuitous versus when it's only to be expected and would be a perverse favour on your part (assuming you can secretly find it kind of amusing, i.e. rise above it, rather than let it get to you). Dad probably has a LOT of things he "needs" to do right now and lately, but, like Holly, is on a bit of a drugs trip (angst and panic) and not coping. Still - very positive sign that he can apologise! Email him this, that should put him back in his box - for all future times as well...WITH a smile on his face - as well as would be a good way of saying, 'okay, I'll let you off ;-)': https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARhyKBNFHmY ******** Go auntie!! Your parents statement: Ooh, tried FOR MONTHS. Someone give'em a lie-down and then a medal for their determination, perseverence and tenacity! :-p I don't believe them. THEY believe them - clearly. But I don't. Not one iota. Unfortunately for them, they're missing an awful lot of associative signs and symptoms, all the biggies. So they can 'meet someone else' as much as they like during this period, won't do them any good, the relationships will just rebound horribly and have them missing one another like uggery. Again - it's a process. Just because the process has side-paths featuring beauty-spots or sets of swings, doesn't make it any less of one, doesn't change the end terminus. Leave them to get it out of their systems. And note - HOW FUNNY that they've BOTH 'met someone else' at the same time, what were the bleedin' chances! What are they - Torville & Dean? Nah. They're still just playing belated Poker: I'll see your "someone" with MY "someone". Don't blame or take it out on the "friends", though. They're just what's known as the unwitting, over-gullible co-star, s/he who gets pulled in for effect, whom themselves either *do* genuinely want a relationship (and end up feeling horribly used but vitally wiser) or (Like Attracts Like) themselves need to 'pull in the other woman/man' (as it's known) for leverage and a form of showing each other their muscles. It won't work, it CAN'T work, and will last all of 'five minutes'...reason being, they're not detached from each other yet, meaning, they'll only be plonking the other person straight into "the ex's" vacated space (which the Other Person will quite quickly realise). "Users/Mutual Users, anyone?". Only if they'd told you they were separating and, at whatever point, confided that, UGH, they didn't want ANY relationship with ANYONE - ever-ever-ever, UGH! - would I be panicking on your behalf or taking this even partway seriously. Emotionally, your parents are about 8 to 10 years old. Thus acting like it. Haven't had enough drama, been too busy being responsible mini-adults before their time. In other words, THEY'RE not instinctually treating this event or these so-called new relationships seriously nor embarking on them in a way that spells any kind of lasting-ness AT ALL. If this were a Scrambled Egg recipe, it would read 'whisk eggs vigorously and then crack eggs into bowl' (in fact, in their case it'd read, 'and then crack aubergines'). What they're doing is just another form of sparring and 'showing him/her!', which doesn't encourage detachment, it actually encourages RE-ATTACHMENT. But they'd never tell themselves or you that or else they'd lose the impetus for seeing it through. It's just a big, messy FIGHT. With pulled-in witnesses, aided, I'm sure, by the huge drum-roll in the run-up (refusing to tell anyone, keeping everyone in suspense, watching their space... a way to ensure they have plenty of sensible supervision in case they ever take things too far). But in the same way that neither, strangely for their stage and mind-frames, obstructed the other's custody - notice how (whether or NOT it's BS) STILL the playing field is being kept perfectly equal? Nobody is winning, nobody CAN win. They're headed the whole time FOR A TIE. See it? Course you can. Which is precisely why you chose the term 'crappy daytime game show'. (Jerry Springer ;-)) Well done for spotting it! And that's the key in these sorts of things: ignore all the ridiculous blah-blahs and just watch the actions and what they mean or indicate. Actions-actions-ACTIONS! Actions can't lie, only consciously chosen words can. They're *not* highly intelligent, Lily. That's you (and Tom). They're academically intelligent but emotionally thick as pig sh*t. But here - what they're doing - is an extreme and rush-job form of *gaining* emotional intelligence... which is what I've been trying to explain all along. NOTHING - no...THING they've been doing so far, including the order, aligns with people who genuinely are breaking up. Quite the opposite. All your parents are doing, is PUKING, that's another way to look at it... Sticking their fingers down their own and each other's throats to get out all the useless toxins and rubbish that was force-spoon-fed when they were younger. It's not always pretty to watch, if you're one of the great uninitiated, though, I'll give you that. Me, though, I'm chuckling wryly through my nose and rolling my eyes at them. Join me! And watch that space, sorry- that lab... In other words - yeah, VERY good friends. ;-) I expect they're both very intrigued with the other right now ("who are you and what have you done with --?"). What a wonderful refresher and foreplay session (, badly and childishly done). "infact I think I might of tried to make a move but he stopped me saying it wasn't the right time I was upset." Christ, what a diamond you've got there!!!!! Tom for president! *And* you. Excellent sisterly behaviour! Maybe that's part of why your parents feel at liberty to act like the kids they never got the chance to get out of their systems back when it was on the menu? Maybe you were always the secret parent of that whole family? Did that ever occur to you? That would explain perfectly why your first-ever relationship is more like your 10th and, by the same token, how you chose a likewise ahead-of-his-years soul such as Tom (and vice-versa for him)? Go for it - show the pair of toddlers how it should be done! :-) You *are*, after all, the upgrade of those two pieces of software-on-legs. And so are you supposed to be, nature's-design-wise. But you are still technically only 18 with only an 18-year-old's stomach, so - use it or lose it! (followed by (like those two) being compelled to do it decades later when it can affect other involved people, including littl'uns who take it seriously). See how the pass-the-parcel gets passed down the line now? You (and with your help, your sibs) can be the Full Stop, you can find that BALANCE that they never found and pass that BALANCE down your (and your sibs') lines. This lesson contained in all of this, is called How Not To, which is far more impactful and indelible than How To. Have I peeled your eyes open that much wider, by any chance?

You have definately opened my eyes, it's does all make sense. that's what my aunt says she does want another person to have to look after her and wipe her bum when she can't! She's lovely but fiecly indeed at the same time and has ended relationships when she feels shes getting close and I think the men are really disappointed. She tell me alsorts :). true I think some academic people do lack common sense or struggle emotionally. My dad is one of them. I think it's very convientent they both managed to meet two people at roughly the same time. I do wonder who it was first. Part of me can't help but thibk one of them may of had a fling, then told the other and they thought ' sod you , I'm going to go and find someone else too! ' . Like you say all childish. Tom also thinks they might see these two people are their 'rescuers' . as in they both believed they were uphappy and listened to negitive Thoughs feed off each other and these two people wee the closest to them and they though they were their escape out of their what they believe to be 'unhappy marriage'. I can't quite stop thinking about my sister question to them 'if they think they can be really good friends then why can't they stay married? ' if they're saying they can be good friends they surely can see some sort of light at the end of the tunnel? Unless they softened it for my sisters benefit, which my parents do, do she's 11 nearly 12 not 6, she's fully aware of the birds and bees and her body is changing too, so they to start talking to her properly. Admittedly I'm getting curious about these to other two people, like tom said I might (not sure if he landed that seeding my head) To see who my parents have picked as a partner who they believe they could get more happiness from?! And now that I've calmed down I probably would be civil if I met them. I found that quite interesting when you put they may want a relationship but they ain't gunna get one, not a proper one anyway. I almost feel sorry for them. My mum is far too emotional and tearful and my dad is miserable and they are both potentially depressed. Not really great catches! Unless they stick a smile on their faces and act differently, around these people, they're quite good at doings that! I spoke to my aunt last night and she's thinks midlife crisis also she going to speak to my mum. She also just just keep talking to them. Ow we know what's going on keep asking questions and challenge them (nicely) which might not e a bad idea. Had a really nice day yesterday with tom went to a park (I drove :) ) for a walk. Was a bit unsure as to how tom would be with the sibs partly because he's the youngest in his family, he's got two older brothers Who are in their early and mid 30s - tom tells me a was a surprise baby! I love other people's family dynamics. But he was really good with them and they like him too, even my brother who doesn't like many people talked a lot or moody . The long walk must of released endophines in to my bro and sis because they brightened up pretty quick and did not hold back on telling tom stories about me of course he was encouraging them. Especially my sister if I had duck tape on me, her mouth would of been sealed! For two kids who fight like cat and dog at home they showed they are capable of being nice to each other and work as a team. Got a teacher training day today so I'm going to try and make up with holly today if she answers my call, Or I might just drive round her house! it could go one way or the other but I'm prepared to nip things in the bud asap if she's the same as last time! Was meant to say Hope you out of pain with the tooth removAl sounded grim. Lily x

When I said 'what were the chances' and 'Torville & Dean', I was being sarcastically cynical (realistic, actually), as in, I don't believe for one piddly second that they've somehow magically managed in complete yet independent synchronisation to both "find somebody else". I obviously can't say for certain, but if you were to ask me to place a large monetary bet on either, I'd without any hesitation put it on 'Come OFF IT, who DO you think you're kidding?!'. Listen, ALREADY we've seen them cooperating and collaborating (over sharing custody) where other couples these days under such a climate wouldn't (understatement!) - right? And already we've gathered they really didn't want you kids knowing any ins and outs and asking any questions (that they haven't got answers to yet). So, what with you having got Auntie stepping in, I can quite imagine them having reacted by together cooking up this story for you kids' benefit in terms of getting you to back off and mind your own businesses so as to take back full reins and privacy. Plus we've established that they've been brought up to be respectable-pillar-of-the-community types whilst lagging seriously behind schedule when it comes to their emotional education/sophistication, so this means they'll in certain regards be on the one hand behaving like impressive grown-ups and on the other, silly little kids. Plus they're not firing on all cylinders lately. PLUS THEY'RE 'UNATTRACTIVE' TO THE MAX at the mo, like you rightly observe (meaning, they'd have to have linked up with someone *prior* to the sh*t hitting the fan yet behaviour presently and since, still flies in the face of that theory). So what you'd end up with is a mish-mash: the sensible, adult family talk (finally), but one featuring a ridiculously childish, jointly complicit fabrication. (Anyone would have thought it were a press conference than the coming-clean exercise opportunity!) Additionally, were there any stage-typical competitiveness, resentment and acrimony between them (*which* obviously is still strangely missing even if there hadn't been any infidelity in the picture), you can bet that the parent who *hadn't* found someone else yet, or were even lagging behind in that progress respect, would have been incapable of stopping their egos from giving the game away SOMEHOW under their own radar - e.g. through a shift in facial expression, eye contact/direction or bodily shift/movement/fiddling at that point. In fact, had cheating been involved it would be too unusual for this incredible level of consistent teaming up to begin with. So we can now safely eliminate it from the enquiry. So I'll believe it when I (or you) see it. So you're still none the wiser as to what (they believe) is at the root of all this, are you. But what's remarkable to point of sticking out like a sore thumb in all this is their 100% teamwork *and* premature decision to remain good friends to point of flag-planting. SO SORRY to ask if you manage to pick up on what I'm angling at, but... did your parents used to attend quite a lot of very late-ending or all-night parties with a certain same crowd/couple every time, do you know? I'm thinking (cough!) Musical Chairs? But ones that (er) recline? (Sorry to ask.) Pillars of the community...really good at putting on an act...neither one feeling entitled to feel thus leak out onto your sharp radar any anger and resentment at the other but both upset anyway, can't/daren't tell you kids the truth, tell a cock 'n bull story when 'forced' to.... Seeing what I'm starting to see (potentially) emerging yet? ****** "that's what my aunt says she does want another person to have to look after her and wipe her bum when she can't! She's lovely but fiecly indeed at the same time and has ended relationships when she feels shes getting close and I think the men are really disappointed. She tell me alsorts" Interesting fact - apples from certain tree wise and not falling far from it or each other... Intimacy inevitably leads to danger, eh? Does she tell you about your granddad or granny? If so, what and how does she say? ******* Feel sorry for the Other Person if they're being duped into being tools, but not if it's a case of consensual, tacit deal-striking by way of compatible needs in that respect, in which case, think, Yeah whatever... 'Hair Shirt-on-legs Desperately seeks same or similar' - talk about long and overly convoluted way round?! Some people haven't got the imaginations for just sitting and thinking everything through and working out all the whys and wherefores that way, they have to act it out using other live individuals. We're not LIKE ants (more's the pity). They're more intelligent en masse, stupid when operating alone (apart from the scouts). Hence - FORUMS! Think about it: everybody but EVERYBODY here is operating individually. Anyway, I digress...and keep forgetting you're only 18. And then I remember and think, BLOODY NORA, world watch out!! What are you intending to teach, again? (Sorry, haven't got time at the mo to re-read.) ******* Tom and the sibs walked and you drove alongside him? Ha-ha, how novel! Don't worry, you'll feel ready to exceed 5mph quite quickly (har-dee-har). ;-) I suspect Tom is nothing LIKE the youngest of his family, actually. Tell me, have either of you actually *had* a childhood yet? Well, whatever, your sibs, I reckon, are going to be latching more and more onto you two as substitute mum and dad, "the on-lee sensibles in thuh vill-edge". Try not to slide too fully into that role, the pair of you. Try to make a concerted effort to act your ages and be silly the rest of the time, won't you. You don't want you and Tom decades from now, having a massive reaction like your parents are having, do you. ******* Did you go round and did Holly pick up / open the door? Did you take her anything? (Custard pie? LOL) ******* Still sore, but not as bad as it's been, "ta fer askin'!" :-). I'm chucking back Solpadine and gargling with hot salt water for all I'm worth! Good job I love salt, ain't it ("Mmmm....saaaalt..."). Keep keeping me posted... as you've gathered, I think my jigsaw pic is starting to show a distinctive picture already.

I might be being completely thick here, but are you asking if one of my parents could of potentially realised they could be gay? IF not i clearly didn't get what you meant! So please explain again, I dont take offence that easily :) but to rule that out anyway, I don't think so....i now know my mum is seeing a teacher from her old school now, which kind of rings an aralm bell inside my head, as something could of happened there? I'm yet to question my dad, waiting for him to be in a good mood, which could be never! ha. I've been doing what my aunt suggested and i've started talking to my mum and she's slowly opening up more but still words her answers very carefully, she hiding something i feel like shaking her and telling her to just be honest with me. I keep questioning her on things, like, is putting the house up for sale and splitting up the family is it really worth it? She's goes on about money but no don't believe it. Doesn't she think that its a good idea to be with some else? She goes a bit quiet on me and changes the subject. My main worry with this 'partner' as she now calls him, could move into the new house and i go off to uni and my bro and sister are miserable. Luckily we are just getting time wasters coming to view our house at the moment, the main complaint is that location is too rural. Good. Bugger off! I can't really think of any issues they could of had in the past. My dads parents thought they could boss them around, and tell my parents how to bring me and the sibs up, more so with my brother and accused my mum of being too soft. Apprently when my mum was pregnant with me they gave her a list of traditional name suggestions, exspecting her to choose one, she choose none of them! So I don't know if she ever felt back up by my dad or if this could be an issue or caused tension but they both died 7 years ago with months in between each other. Whenever my aunt talks about my grandparents, she talks about them nicely but says she only really had a propper relationship with them she was an adult. They were apprently realy strict (they were always really nice to me) and my aunt considered herself as the black sheep of the family and was really rebellious. More so then my brother! She was expected to go to university but she didn't go to get her o level results or whatever they were back then and left home hitch hicked around Europe with a friend and sent one post card home. By that point my grandparents taking up smoking they were that worried! But i think it does exaplin why my mum and her are both soft as parents. Ha I wish a was driving along side tom and the sibs in my car that day so i could of had space to drive away and die of embarressment! That's me and my dyslexic brain, I doesn't really bother me :D. I'm doing english, music and biology, i think i want to study english at uni because i love reading. It just when it comes to easy writing my brain thinks faster then i can write and i forget what i mean to put in seconds and it comes out very wrong in sometimes! When it comes to reading/playing music, I play the piano and guitar, its different. I try to not to mother the sibs and stay as the older sister mode and no i dont really want tom and i to become 'the parents' were still quite new! My sister is needing me less but knows she can talk to me, shes a bit of a free spirit. My brother I have always felt like hes always been missed or never understood, and I do sort of feel some sort responsilty towards him mainly at school when hes got himself into trouble, when we were younger, any school holiday sport days camps, friends birthday parties, where he would just cause havoc! My mum and dad always told me to keep an eye on him and i would watch him anxiously waiting for him to strike, little sod. But my brother would normally never agree to come out with me and my sister, let alone speak to us civilly so something is changing, hes beginning to realise we're not annoying or whatever. No I don't think tom does act like the youngest, hes more mature compared to some of the idiots that go to my school, which is why i like him because i feel we're on the same wave lenght, however hes there is a cheeky, playful side to him, hes like a bouncy puppy. His parents were apparently very laid back but they did treated and spoke to him like a little mini adult and expected him to act be grown up in certain situations, so maybe he did miss out on being a kid. One of his brother lives with his boyfriend (which they're obviously cool with) and slowly considering marriage and aprently adoption! The other brother refuses to settle down travels around the world come back home, works for a bit, then goes travelling again! So Tom thinks they're pinning their hopes on him settling down after uni and giving them grandchildren. I've only met toms mum once, when we came back from school once, she and two of her friends were sitting in her kitchen making christmas ball balls and listening to Christmas music, in late September...but she seemed very nice not that i got a change to speak to her propperly because tom dragged me away, before any conversation was made, think he was slightly embarrassed?! Holly - we're back to being best buds again, yey! I did go round to her house with a Orchid plant, she loves them and doesn't like chocolate, weirdo . After a little chat apparently shes been having er....lady troubles, and she's reacting to medication shes been on for years, its making her hornmoans and her go a little crazy. I wasnt not sur how much of an excurse this can be used to her jealousy, so i asked my dad (stupidly) according to him this does happen (he's dying to find out how intermate tom and i are getting up to anything, i play him at hi own game and remain quiet whilst he keeps muttering about contraception, and me making an appt with the nurse, dads!). She said she felt bad for telling me to f off, but was too scared to go bk, and apologise, she could of just told me! My other friend, Megan, is still being weird, she's the one holly contacted after she told me to f off. Nothing big enough to do something about, shes very suttle. Meg a was newbie at the beginning of sixth form, before it was just me, Holly and our other best friend Alex. Meg befriended Holly and half heartedly Alex and me, even though we were nice and accepted her into our little group! At any given opportunity she will latch onto Hollie and stir things she basically wants hollie all to herself, and but when this does happen me and Alex just separate our selves a bit and hang out together. Its not worth sorting out and its more Alex she has the issue or personality clash with :) . Alex, is my nice but very feisty, metal music lover (yes the type of music where they just scream and make no sense) friend, she's very different and had her own style, which i admire and could never pull off! She has toned it down a little and doesn't look so gothic now but meg doesnt get and teases Alex for being different, but Alex shoots her down again! I dont think Alex or i will still be friends with megan after school. I'm just never sure if her ad holly have a good b*tch about us when they're alone or if I should be weary of her pulling my best bud away from me/us? Lily x

Not ignoring you, Lily, just literally haven't got time to post at the mo! Am aware you're waiting, though. Be with you just as soon as I humanly can! *Hopefully* tomorrow. Bear with...?

Sure :)

Going to have to be fairly quick - got To Do lists coming out of my ears! Again, I *don't* believe their 'we've both found someone in precise unison', but if true then there is only one thing that fits the picture so far, which would be ....couple swap. It happens. In FACT, it happened to a distant aunt and uncle of mine, they literally wife-swapped (or husband-swapped, if you prefer?). But, now, with you telling me your mum's done a 'Friends Reunited' job? "Big Fat Oh!", would be my response. However, it needn't be a case of reunited and re-snogged, it could just be that the old friend has provided a catalyst to your mum unpacking and re-watching old cine footage (in her head) of her past, meaning, things she'd buried thereby disinterring themselves and biting her so hard on the bum (so to speak) that they're now confusing and upsetting her all over again as has affected her relations with your father. But that's conjecture...albeit, based on what frequently can happen in that situation *where* someone had tried to move on from an upsetting era without having come to terms with it and 'forgiven' it first...which ties up nicely with your aunt's 'intimacy leads only to danger' attitude, I think (do you agree?). Well, *someone* with big b*lls is bound to bump into your aunt some day soon, club her over the head, sling her over his shoulder and snog her into silence any time she tries to wriggle her way out of it, that's Nature's most primitive, clingy dictat which there is zero getting away from (basically because Conscious We are not even remotely in control of whether and when, meaning, we can sit there going 'Bleuch, NO WAY!' ten times a day, but it makes no odds. "the main complaint is that location is too rural. Good. Bugger off!" (LOL - 'Geert ORF mey lairnd, you peasants!".) Don't worry, it's not over until the fat lady sings (as they say). I haven't seen a fat lady anywhere yet, let alone singing - have you? But if the 'worst' came to the worst, I doubt your siblings would have any reason to be miserable. In fact, they might well eventually find it really convenient and cushy, having an extra home that they can petulantly flounce off too any time they and one of your parents have a typical son/daughter-parent clash. I'm divorced, and my son, surprisingly rapidly, actually, grew to prefer having two sets of everything, including *but not only* support, e.g. two sets of Xmas and birthday pressies and pocket-money, etc., twice as many free chauffeurs to drop and collect from parties, ...on and on go the perks of having 'four' primary supporters/suppliers instead of just the two (and let's not forget your sibs are both approaching the stages where those sorts of things will be their main concerns). Every cloud has a silver lining - no exceptions - so it's about identifying them, weighing them up in ones mind against what's been supposedly lost, and realising that it's only the PARENTS who 'lose' anything (including half of their total wealth as now separate individuals), NOT the kids. And even that's only for a while. But because parents are so distraught and upset during a split-up, they manage to communicate that state of mind to the kids who then themselves panic and believe it's "the END OF THE WOOORLD" (same as where parents have always shown fear of spiders, the kids tend to grow up with the same hang-up). No, it isn't. It ends up Same But Different at worst, and Much Better at best. There's nothing to fear, here, and your sibs need to appreciate that and just go with the flow, knowing they'll be anywhere between okay or much better off, whatever happens..and so will your parents, just later along that line than them. But that's just the 'worst case' scenario, anyway. You haven't got there yet and there's nothing yet to suggest you will because EVEN IF they sell the house, like you said - they were going to anyway, regardless, so that bit's got too little to do with what's going down with your folks. Frankly, one could sell ones KNICKERS and it STILL wouldn't have an influence. Because, like marriage, divorce happens *in the head* and *only* in the head, the rest merely being stuff in the environment following suit like a herd of sheep. And their heads CLEARLY - CRYSTAL! - aren't there yet (and, I repeat, are going in the precisely wrong direction, anyway; as far as I can tell, they're just doing the 'let's put it on the edge of the cliff and see how strong its hands and arms are when it comes to pulling itself back up' dance). PS: I don't think it's because it's too rural, that has to be a polite excuse for something else. The viewers knew where it was located the minute they got the sales particulars and rang the agent to arrange a viewing, n'est pas. Location, Location, LOCATION, is the primary key to selling. Everything else can be altered or improved on, think about it. PPS: You write WELL, *and* sound way ahead of your years. So I would have said your personal, pet study focus (i.e in your own time) should go on psychology, like Tom. You're obviously drawn to it (hence a practitioner-to-be in the form of Tom) and seem to get it without any effort whatsoever so - food for thought? Try starting with lay books like 'The Naked Ape' by Desmond Morris and make your way from there, including the rest in his series ('Man Watching' and 'Mind Watching') until you can grasp the more specialist, academic stuff. I'd recommend that to anyone, actually, because if you think about it, how on earth are humans supposed to understand how they themselves and other people tick, without ever having read a single User Manual? (Banana shoved in the VCR slot, anyone?) Trust me, it makes life *far* simpler, particularly if you're the type who has a scientific brain and therefore doesn't always trust their own instincts or can't 'translate' them that clearly enough to read them; you always have the on-paper knowledge as back-up (or sidekick). PPPS: Me too (piano)! Chopin, Einaudi and Joplin are my all-time fave composers (couldn't get my head around a guitar...probably should have used my hands instead, har-har). Yours? But anyway, if your mum's sister was the black sheep then mum was probably the obedient, obsequious one. Late Onset Rebellion, anyone?...living a part of her past life that she was robbed of? Could be. But equally could be the same for your dad, by the sounds. Whichever, they obviously do both have unsifted, unsorted issues stemming from their childhoods and how they were raised. Mid Life Crisis a deux (one partner set off - possibly early, possibly not - by the other). It's the (rarely) especially self-intimate, self-knowledgeable, independent- and wilful-minded person that can escape that typical middle-aged 'everything coming to a head/the rules aren't working' business, basically because they refuse moreover to be blindly spoonfed and prefer to make their own minds up (unless what's on the spoon is instantly identifiable and understandable, of course). To be human is to have baggage, berbom. The differences, as ever, lay only in the *degrees*. So experiencing marital trouble and this kind of impasse is actually perfectly normal and NOT always something that clears the entire ship's deck, including deck itself; sometimes it can vastly improve matters. So just watch that space (without really letting it affect you emotionally. Pretend you're the scientist and they the lab rats. It helps, trust me.) Brother's supposed to be a little sod. It comes with the job title. ;-) He's beginning to realise he needs you *and* that you actually have far more in common than he thought. And here is one of the very Lemonades you can make out of this giant, seeming Lemon: it can provide the perfect catalyst to you and your siblings ending up so damn solid that in later life you're all three of you adults the very best of friends, confidantes, supporters and moral supporters, basically mutual, takesie-turnsie parent figures for when your folks are gone. PRICELESS. Tell Tom I said - hopes schmopes. It's HIS life and as long as he's capable of finding a place and a workload for himself in the world that makes HIM happy then that is all the payback parents can ask or *should* ask: a happy, fairly settled, confident/brave child who isn't frightened of the normal life-path hurdles both internal and external and hence faces and copes with them until he's back to his default position of moreover perfectly contented. As you can probably now appreciate, there IS no pleasing parents by trying to make them happy, it backfires. The most he can do to ensure he's happy yet them not feeling actually affronted or rejected, is find a nice balance. That's why you two should watch your parents' "dance" closely because it gives you the opportunity to learn from their mistakes thus never end up having to make your own (nor clean up the resultant mess). You'd be surprised, Lily, how many people are too stubborn and incapable of learning from second- or third-hand examples and just replicate the same ol' same ol' errors and wrong moves in the wrong direction. Me, I think it's an especially savvy person who lets other people (mostly) play guinneapig in that regard. Minimal mistakes, corrections and backtracks on your part, faster and smoother progress, better timeline that leaves room for only whatever *should* be in one's intray at that point, rather than a truckload of old sheets on top - voila! If Tom is capable of pleasing himself first and foremost - and in a way that takes other people with him as winners and/or doesn't impede or harm anyone else in the process - then, his parents will not have a complaining or reprimanding leg to stand on, come the result (or each sub-result). And if his being happy doesn't automatically render THEM happy, there's frankly summat wrong with them...in which case, who would want to dance to the tunes of idiots or expect to end up ticketyboo? Or as the airlines tell you: place your own oxygen mask on *before* trying to help others on with theirs. SIMPLES! If you're okay, then other people who love you and rely on and are affectable by your welfare will be okay too. PS: The way you describe Tom reminds me exactly of Mr Soulmate. :-) Holly: Yeah. I'm with you on the excuse front. Sure, hormones can be like alcohol but they don't "MAKE" you anything, they just kid you into feeling free to expose the parts (i.e. your inner chimp) you'd normally prefer to keep to yourself. Still, at least she admitted she'd been silly, that's the main thing. (Bit scared of you (she means intimidated) - noted, not surprised at all for one so scarily intelligent, articulate and switched-on as you. You're probably a lot to measure up to, without even realising it.) Agree with dad completely that you should be prepared like a good Girl Guide. Preparation is key to anything going smoothly and happily. "At any given opportunity she will latch onto Hollie and stir things she basically wants hollie all to herself, " That's what I'm talking about: natural born psychologist! I doubt very much Megan can compete with you, certainly going by Holly's feet, so no point in even entertaining that worry. After all, Holly's just had *THE* golden opportunity to ditch you for Meg and Meg's just had the same regarding getting her permanently to herself. *Fail*. But Meg obviously doesn't feel like she has a secure, well defined 'job title' in that pack so is scared of being pushed out/left behind and on her tod, so the kind and good Karma-earning thing to do would be to create or identify one for her (that'll shut 'er up with a smile on her mush). If she has a distinct place and role in the pack, she won't try to steal anyone else's. Again - Simples! And it can be any number of things: the fashion expert, the good listener, the very practical one, the bash organiser...whatever package of genuine, useful qualities. Just a meaty enough role that you and Holly show you appreciate and rely on, MEANING, you both need her long-term, MEANING, she's neither surplus to requirements nor dispensable, meaning, SAFE. Put yours and Holly's heads together on that score. Bitching aka resentfully whinging, behind your back: probably, on occasion. But that can just be a case of letting off steam SO THAT you don't go letting it off in the face of the person concerned because you still like them and want to keep their friendship and DON'T want to hurt them in the process of having a damn good mind-puke. (- So not *that* much behind-your-back venting, then?) Know what I say whenever I leave a table or room? "Do talk about me while I'm gone, won't you? In fact, I positively insist on it and shall be asking questions later!" Know what happens in their heads? 'You don't tell ME what to do!' (Aim, fire, bullseye!) But as Oscar Wilde said, 'T'is better to be looked over than overlooked' (just ask Meg ;-)). (Fairly quick, s/he said... like, the Pope is fairly Catholic.) Anyway, I'm glad you're all coping and doing okay, that's the important thing: not getting infected and passing on the infection to those around you or, worse, your pending kids. :-)

Hi Soulmate, Definite food for thought! I'm beginning to think I've chosen the wrong a levels and maybe instead of music I should of done psychology. My dad did tell me to rethink it at the time, oops! I do find it really interesting. Tom has given me the chimp paradox - the inner mind management and really enjoying it, more of a self help book for stress and anxiety, which I do suffer with too. Will look up those other books you mentioned as well. Couple swap? I never considered that or knew it actually happened but I can see how it could make sense, in a weird way. Do couples actually swap partners and don't necessarily get divorced unless they want to get married? I can see the perks, I already got two lots of monthly allowances :). With my mum, my brother has some how managed to increase his quite a lot because he's promised to work harder at school, crafty! At my dads I don't have my own room, I have to share a room with my sister, so I miss my privacy on a Saturday night but Sophia and I decided to turn it into chick flick movie night/sister time - every cloud does have a silver lining . My dad got a puppy yesterday! Huge perm always wanted a dog. It was a surprise for us , we got to pick him, we've called him Hunter, not my choice but he's still small, fluffy and cute! Make gong to his more fun. I just don't know if all parents are as secretive like mine? Or if are most parents just more honest and say why straight off no matter what the reason they just don't want to stress there kids put where mine have chooses to do that. Thanks mum and dad! I do think it's convenient my mum left her old job to go to a new school, leaving behind a 'friend' who she now want to start seeing. Not just because she's want to teach older kids, my brother agrees with me. I know who he is now, my brother actually knew more about him than I did and found him on Facebook and he found a picture of them, my mum and him, which is why he showed me, it was taken this year. Wouldn't say it was a cosy Pic they are just standing side by side. My brother was really worried but there isn't much that can be done. I had to persuade him not to write a rude message! God that would be bad, I did explain to him what you explained to me about not giving these other people a hard time, and if anything to feel sorry for them, I think he listened. I'm pleased I don't have Facebook, otherwise I think I'd be winding my self up like my brother is. I've also found out my brother has a little love interest !Holly's step sister, who for months followed him around at school and he used to bat her away pretending to be uninterested but she stuck with it ignored his insults and she's turn into his first gf. He claims there friend, Holly's sister claims there gf and bf, lol, which is why he's seems more relaxed! I had to leave his room the other night because they wanted to face time each other, sweet! They're kind of suited both don't have many friends, both get a little bullied ( Holly's step mum is another controlling person) And both too clever and both very good at art. So they have things in common. I also saw my dads 'friend' on Saturday too, didn't actually meet her in person she just dropped something round and then went again so he is actually listening to me when I told him I wasn't ready to meet her yet. But he did point out to me he doesn't stop me from seeing Tom so maybe, I do need to be a little fairer? Apart from the fact it's under different circumstances ! Lol, It is very much 'get off my land' from my point of view and there is a reason why I'm attached to my family home and why I don't feel my parents do actually want to sell it, apart from. More so my dad as he always said it would be a home for life or until my mum and him were too old to. He brought the house (or the shell of it) at auction and he renovated it completely with builders. We used to live in London till I was about 4 and the parents wanted to move out to the countryside and he wanted project! And I vaguely remember bits being done, and swing it change, which why it feels sentimental. I do like those composers but I'm more of a guitar person, my piano gets a bit neglected! A couple of months ago one of toms friend jamie, managed to convinced me to do an open mic night at a pub most Fridays evenings, we got our own time slot. I litterally just back him up on guitar and maybe if I'm feeling brave do some harmonising, but J does all the signing and take it far more seriously then I do, I do get a buzz from doing it though despite being really nervous before hand! More so if tom is there watching! This week we got asked to play at a wedding, which went to Jamie's head a bit and he was like 'we should totally X factor next year' or 'start up on YouTube?' ...no! I hope some comes along and sweeps, my auntie off her feet ! Yes my mum was the good one, always tried to please my grandparents and she promised herself never to be as strict as them, which is probably why she's gone too soft! And my aunt spoils her two sons. My auntie is coming to stay next weekend 'watch this space' is all I can say. Ah no I hope Holly's not scared of me, she's the louder more confident one/self confident one out of the two of us. I talk a lot on here but I'm quite shy but weirdly I push my self to do confident things once in a while, like open night mic with Jamie. Although tom admits he finds her annoying and doesn't see the attraction most guys do :-/. Megan has slowly stored stirring now after seeing she wasn't getting anywhere. I did pass your message onto tom at first he thought it was weird I'm writing everything on a forum about my parents (why not?) but he then saw what being said and he likes what you said about his parents and agrees :). He wants to know if you're a psychologist? I'm also meeting his parents properly next Sunday we're going to his brother house on Sunday, nervous! But wow I'm falling for him pretty hard! Speak soon, Lily x

First, re your earlier query on Jackdor's thread: (Um....How to succinctly sum up what is a complex subject...) Narcissistic Personality Disorder is deemed a sociopathy (nurtured in during childhood rearing, yet still aware of right -v- wrong) rather than psychopathy (born with, devoid of sense of right or wrong, hence deemed actually insane thereby not responsible for own actions). All humans naturally possess narcissistic tendencies, always have (men especially...think lack of empathy compared to women). It's only when a quality is too little or too much, whereby it affects behaviour and proceedings, that it leaves the Normal domain into that of mental illness - sociopathy - specifically, personality disorder (on-the-cusp to mild, all the way to severe...think conman after money/power and/or cementing incoming-only love (aka Narcisisstic Supply) all the way to despotic leader, e.g., Kim Jong Un. Unfortunately, FB ("fakebook" or "lovemebook" as I call it) and other social media, including mainstream, do nowadays encourage out vanity, self-obsession and self-serving selfishness to a degree significant enough to spill over into everyday life, yes. Industry and public awareness, however, is, as ever, the key (or antidote). Some know they are, some don't ('a sufferer may be brought to see an expert because of the suffering they are producing in those around them, or they may themselves come to realize how empty their lives are and how depressed they are really feeling, despite all their success'). But imagine a life wherein you can't appreciate and enjoy healthy love in either direction for its own sake, and what you'd have left in terms of from where to derive pleasure in life (especially as life *is* people) thus priorities/goals? Answer: they become nothing but tools and puppets, whilst social climbing, fame, money and material possessions - reasons to self-admire (to counteract the deeper-laying suspicion that they're sh*t/unlovable), basically, become the main focus (most successful business people are narcissistic). Full-on Narcissists can end up destroying their own and other people's lives...basically stunted as children, now going around as kids/teens in 'grown-up suits', trying, trying, trying to convince themselves through other people that they're *not* sh*t, in fact, far from it. But deep down they never believe you anyway, hence once is never enough and it's an ongoing effort requiring constant/replenished Supply. If you have one in your life, setting very clear rules and boundaries and refusing to veer from them is imperative. They can't control themselves so your only choice is to control yourself (takers need thus seek out givers, think about it). If you can't do that then the up-side is, these people do tend to make very good mental gym equipment on-legs, because if you can deal with a Narcissist and come out relatively unscathed, you can then deal with *anyone*, will end up 'un-dupe-able'. Me, I both feel very sorry for them and repulsed by them, but, thankfully, they've never yet managed to get one over on me and tend to quickly sense or realise that and give me a wide berth. If it's not too late to switch subjects - I agree. Or take it afterwards or study it in your own time...albeit, Narcissism, strictly speaking, comes under psychiatry (one of the industry descriptives being, 'Never love something [some THING, note] that can't love you back'), mainly because psychotherapeutic success relies wholly on admitting and speaking [wait for it]... THE TRUTH, something they avoid because it goes against their lifelong (psychologically survivalist) campaign to prove the 'original evidence' wrong. So they can only be treated/managed, not cured...unless a therapist has about 10+ concentrated years to spare and loves banging their head against a brick wall. However, like any problems, a lot of conditions were once said to be incurable, were they not (until they became an actual or too much of a problem, of course) so - watch that space...

"Couple swap? I never considered that or knew it actually happened but I can see how it could make sense, in a weird way. Do couples actually swap partners and don't necessarily get divorced unless they want to get married?" Yup. It's either a result of or a form of Swinging. But it still doesn't change what, conversely, the behavioural package suits and indicates plus the premature/unavailable stage they're at, plus-plus-plus... "I can see the perks, I already got two lots of monthly allowances Smiling. With my mum, my brother has some how managed to increase his quite a lot because he's promised to work harder at school, crafty!" Crafty or he just needs far greater incentive than you and your sis.? "At my dads I don't have my own room, I have to share a room with my sister, so I miss my privacy on a Saturday night but Sophia and I decided to turn it into chick flick movie night/sister time - every cloud does have a silver lining ." Excellent - very resourceful (and very bonding)! Signs of survivors ('Adapt or perish, now as ever, is nature's inexorable imperative' - H. G. Welles...who obviously read Darwin's 'Origin Of Species'). I hope it includes lots of chocolate, etc? PS: You can get room dividers/screens quite cheaply online... handy for needing to strip off without having to use the bathroom. Ikea even do one that doubles as a floor lamp. PPS: Ensure brother doesn't end up feeling marginalised, though, won't you? Remember he doesn't have a same-sex sib, nor anyone to whisper with before lights-out, which already will make him feel a bit left out and on his own. And remember that acting-out is just a form of (sometimes rightful) attention-seeking. "My dad got a puppy yesterday! Huge perm always wanted a dog. It was a surprise for us , we got to pick him, we've called him Hunter, not my choice but he's still small, fluffy and cute! Make gong to his more fun." Oh. Great for you and sibs, but...The parental competing, albeit (typically) subtle, has begun, look. Or it could be the typical estranged dad insecurity made manifest in terms of prevention? Or bit of both (usually is). "I just don't know if all parents are as secretive like mine? Or if are most parents just more honest and say why straight off no matter what the reason they just don't want to stress there kids put where mine have chooses to do that. Thanks mum and dad!" Some deal with not wanting to stress their kids by telling them as little as possible (intention is what counts, despite methodology isn't always ideal). But as you saw, neither Susiedqq nor I deemed their method sensible, fair or exactly healthy. "I do think it's convenient my mum left her old job to go to a new school, leaving behind a 'friend' who she now want to start seeing. Not just because she's want to teach older kids, my brother agrees with me. I know who he is now, my brother actually knew more about him than I did and found him on Facebook and he found a picture of them, my mum and him, which is why he showed me, it was taken this year. Wouldn't say it was a cosy Pic they are just standing side by side. My brother was really worried but there isn't much that can be done. I had to persuade him not to write a rude message! God that would be bad, I did explain to him what you explained to me about not giving these other people a hard time, and if anything to feel sorry for them, I think he listened." Or it could be her leaving is what spurred the chap on, finally, to reveal his feelings? *Or* he could just be a very supportive platonic friend. But if not, he is coming across as very predatory, thanks to his timing, because - look at it this way: if as a person you're emotionally healthy and ticketyboo and thereby ripe and ready for a relationship (which your mother patently isn't) then why on earth would you basically choose as your cruising ground a HOSPITAL?! Why would you want someone who wasn't remotely over someone else? Who wants damaged goods, even temporarily so? Answer: someone who's in the same hospital for the same problem (Like Attracts Like) *or* a predator (Opposites Attract) whom opportunistically likes 'em needy and vulnerable (easy to manipulate *or* faster to fall in-love via transference of affections). So that'll be the sense brother's had but can't articulate, save for wanting to take the action that embodies those feelings. (Now tell me what's on your dad's profile and we have at least good indication in terms of finding our answer about who's the catalyst or problematic element here.) "I'm pleased I don't have Facebook, otherwise I think I'd be winding my self up like my brother is." Tell him it's becoming an informal hospital recreation room, that transmission of psychological ailments/diseases happens via empathy, that empathy automatically activates during interpersonal interaction (unless one goes in prepared or is highly independent-minded to begin with) - hence why psychotherapists strictly limit contact ("drrrinnng", time's up!, see you next week"), so he's leaving himself open to infection, depending on how often and for how long he 'visits', same as if he were to stand in a room full of cold sufferers, all sneezing profusely. That he's getting wound up is proof he's [1] believing what are mere veneers and [2] starting to be infected. (That ought to do it.) "I've also found out my brother has a little love interest !Holly's step sister, who for months followed him around at school and he used to bat her away pretending to be uninterested but she stuck with it ignored his insults and she's turn into his first gf. He claims there friend, Holly's sister claims there gf and bf, lol, which is why he's seems more relaxed! I had to leave his room the other night because they wanted to face time each other, sweet! They're kind of suited both don't have many friends, both get a little bullied ( Holly's step mum is another controlling person) And both too clever and both very good at art. So they have things in common." "Another" controlling person? Why - who's the first? "I also saw my dads 'friend' on Saturday too, didn't actually meet her in person she just dropped something round and then went again so he is actually listening to me when I told him I wasn't ready to meet her yet. But he did point out to me he doesn't stop me from seeing Tom so maybe, I do need to be a little fairer? Apart from the fact it's under different circumstances !" Your final sentance provides the difference that makes ALL the difference. Your dad knows it. But he's not firing on all mental-emotional cylinders at the mo, is he, he's in needful mode. Anyway, she could be platonic (and/or just a competing tool) as well, you can't say yet. "Lol, It is very much 'get off my land' from my point of view and there is a reason why I'm attached to my family home and why I don't feel my parents do actually want to sell it, apart from. More so my dad as he always said it would be a home for life or until my mum and him were too old to. He brought the house (or the shell of it) at auction and he renovated it completely with builders. We used to live in London till I was about 4 and the parents wanted to move out to the countryside and he wanted project! And I vaguely remember bits being done, and swing it change, which why it feels sentimental." Your dad chose wisely. Maybe he foresaw a hiccup like this without realising it consciously at the time or since? "I do like those composers but I'm more of a guitar person, my piano gets a bit neglected! A couple of months ago one of toms friend jamie, managed to convinced me to do an open mic night at a pub most Fridays evenings, we got our own time slot. I litterally just back him up on guitar and maybe if I'm feeling brave do some harmonising, but J does all the signing and take it far more seriously then I do, I do get a buzz from doing it though despite being really nervous before hand! More so if tom is there watching! This week we got asked to play at a wedding, which went to Jamie's head a bit and he was like 'we should totally X factor next year' or 'start up on YouTube?' ...no!" I've done open mic and the London stand-up (comedy) circuit a handful of times as well so I know how it goes, but, I'm with you on that sentiment: fame - YUCK, can't think of anything worse or more inconvenient. However, ANYTHING is alright as long as you stay in control of it, rather than the other way around (that's the key). "I hope some comes along and sweeps, my auntie off her feet ! Yes my mum was the good one, always tried to please my grandparents and she promised herself never to be as strict as them, which is probably why she's gone too soft! And my aunt spoils her two sons. My auntie is coming to stay next weekend 'watch this space' is all I can say." Any extreme is unhealthy. We conceptualise extremes as two separate, far ends of a stick, but in actual fact it's a snipped circle. Picture it and you'll see how (pre-snip) over-strict sits *right beside* under-strict, meaning, in this context, ones endeavour to be under-strict can end badly and produce a child that vows to be or do [wait for it] the precise opposite. The key to life is being aware of the danger of this human-reactive 'pendulum-ing' and finding out where Balanced is - for you as an individual in tandem with your environment. E.g., others might think you eat too much salt but if your body is the type that NEEDS a lot of salt, your balanced intake is another person's over- or under-kill. So self-intimacy and -knowledge is the master key. "Ah no I hope Holly's not scared of me, she's the louder more confident one/self confident one out of the two of us. I talk a lot on here but I'm quite shy but weirdly I push my self to do confident things once in a while, like open night mic with Jamie. Although tom admits he finds her annoying and doesn't see the attraction most guys do :-/." Sometimes (another key word in life), still waters run deeper. Plus actions trump *any* amount of words/broadcasting. I meant intimidated only, though, not scared. By your intelligence and refusal to pander to anything but the truth, including smokescreens and distractions. "Megan has slowly stored stirring now after seeing she wasn't getting anywhere." Then, THIS time, you and Holly know what to do, quick sharpish (YOU two choose her route to being invaluable and indispensible and then swiftly reward her to show her that that one actually works. Basically anything she can do/provide that you two can't, yet need, and of which she's proud or could become proud of. Just don't give her anything 'valuable' until she's proven herself on that score.) "I did pass your message onto tom at first he thought it was weird I'm writing everything on a forum about my parents (why not?) but he then saw what being said and he likes what you said about his parents and agrees Smiling. He wants to know if you're a psychologist? I'm also meeting his parents properly next Sunday we're going to his brother house on Sunday, nervous! But wow I'm falling for him pretty hard! Speak soon," Can't comment, sorry. For one thing, as 'resident' here, I'm a sitting duck where concerns gangs collecting dribs and drabs of information until clear, useable picture(s) emerge. Anyway - never mind all that - MEETING THE PARENTS! :-) Do *not* waste your time being nervous because, trust me, they'll be far (FAR!) more nervous than you about whether you'll like and approve of them! Just be your best self, that's all you need to do to win them over; it worked with their mini-me, so.... That's another little realised key in life: while person A is sat worrying about what person B thinks of them, person B is doing the exact same thing - possibly to an even greater degree (like this example) and barely even considering their own impression and opinion of A. Plus, it's in their interests to like you, think about it. Plus, again, they already do (because the chip off what is their block, does), they just haven't had concrete evidence yet, that's all. Or as Buble puts it, 'I just haven't met you yet'. PS: In line with prevention and out of respect to his knee-jerk reaction - make sure Tom knows I'm ancient (well, compared to you, anyway) and excessively loved-up, nay, *obsessed* - mutually - with the very wonderful Mr Soulmate, i.e. zero threat whatsoever. *********** And now I'm interested to know, why the sudden keen interest in Narcissism or narcissistic traits plus Jackdor's thread? Who is it, do you suspect?

I like learning knew things and liked their is a reason to why her in-laws were being so mean and odd! And it got me interested. I knew nothing about narcissist people, I kind of thought maybe my parents (more my dad, having traits) because they have been so self indulgent and miserable for ages now and haven't seemed to come out of that but then after reading more and what you put above, I think they're more upset/ not thinking straight. My mind then went on to Holly's step mum, only because Holly's been complaining about her recently and I've been trying to think how to help her or what to say when she does. Unless I want to catch up on while years work, which I don't,I have to look at another way of studying psychology . Can't quite see my self telling my dad I should of listened to him. Yes my brother probably does need more encouragement and attention from my parents and more of an incentive to behave more! Attention seeking is his fav thing to do. But he messed up and got him self in loads trouble yesterday by writing a message on fb to my mums 'friends'. I was annoyed he didn't listen to me but had a feeling I hadn't got through to him and I should of checked with him. I don't know what he's put, clearly something to make my mum really angry with him! She had such a go at him for it and she rarely raises her voice or carry out a punishment. She took away his laptop and mobile, went down so well, not! But as I was listening to them argue, he was making more sense then she was in some ways it's was like he was almost begging her to just be honest with him/us. He's sulking big time at the moment so I'm going to pick my ' hot chocolate before bed' moment (works so well, I've done it a few times now and he's been more then happy to talk, maybe I should pass this advice into my parents) and talk to him about it, not gonna confront him, when my mum has already told him off. Ok, I didn't see that my dad getting a puppy was potentially competition. Was too excited at the time. I think it could be intentional and trying to win us over a bit. My dads profile, not too sure? 'Chick Flick Night' definitely involves chocolate and popcorn :) almost pointless otherwise! I will try to get my bro involved this week too. I think he thinks me and my sis are a little team. From past experiences my sibs have always argued for ages about what film to watch, then fight over the tv controls, both trying to get in control and normally it ends with my sister throwing a strop and storm off to her bedroom because she didn't get the film she wanted to watch! she then hates it if my brother and I decide to watch the film. Anything that involves us doing something with our brother and can make into such a little madam. Typical Baby of the family act? But my brother can be equally argumentative and can wind her up in seconds! Bl**dy nightmare but I think I will and take control this time pick a film and we take it in turns from then on. Will deffinately look into room dividers. My sister really doesn't care about stripping off, but I do! And it's a good excuse to go to IKEA. Tom has never been?! He grew up in Cornwall and I don't think they have on down there. Meeting the parents it's not just his parents, it's them and two brothers, the travelling brother is now going to be around and other brothers partner. This is at the oldest brothers house, tom doing the cooking so I have talk. He knows how to throw me in at the deep end! I have met his mum and I know she's at least far from scary but his dad works away all week so I haven't had a chance to even see him. But will try to loose the nerves by Sunday though! Breath. Tom - we had a little bit of a disagreement today...maybe even call it an arguement! Today, mon and on Fri his ex gf has been starting to hang round him, when I thought she got off our case. She didn't take their break up well and definitely didnt take us getting together well either! all a very long boring story. When we first got together I was worried about upsetting her, as she can be aggressive, which is why we are taking thing slow, i was also a bit worried about him rebounding but tom was miserable with her and I think he has proven that's not the case. Anyways after walking into the common room today and seeing her sitting next to him giggling away at whatever he was saying to her I confronted him a little on it trying to show I wasn't too happy. He got annoyed and told me to 'please not get all Clingy with him because that's what she (his ex) did and I didn't even know what was being said' And maybe so, but I know what she's like! Why even engage with her? After few more angry words from both, he then left without giving me any reassurance and went to play football with us mates! Grrr. Of course meg and holly weren't sitting far away from us and we're clearly enjoying ever minute of our discussion so I left them to it. Alex seems to think it's because I confronted him when he was probably trying to be nice and just escape from her each time. I think we're ok because he found me after school and said sorry and gave me a hug and said he's call me after he finished work. Think it still needs to be talked about though, not totally excited about his call later, like I normally would be m, it's put me in a weird mood! Lily x

1. That's what I'm talking about, Lily! You're completely correct - people in trauma or crisis can, just for a while, emulate the thinking and behaviour of a personality disordered. The difference always is, though, that those who are only *temporarily* in that wheelchair tend inevitably at some point to get up out of it and walking straight and sturdily again. So time tells on that score where diagnosis in the thick of things might fail. 2. Your mum and dad are in a huge transition period. Plus your dad, being a male, would have had more narcissistic traits to begin with, regardless. But no way would an actual narcissist recommend you choose a career path that would make you happy as well as give you greater independence. They don't act in other people's interests, including their own kids', they act in theirs and theirs alone and if you happen to benefit? - it was purely a lucky, unforeseeable byproduct that the Narc hadn't bargained on. And nor does a Narc mother repeatedly ask, 'Everything alright?', etc., like you described 'up there', (which basically means, TALK to me, NEED me, let me HELP if there's anything, as your mum I'm feeling redundant). 3. Holly and her mum are also in transition, going through the stretch or snap the umbilicus stage that happens in the run up to the chick leaving the nest. (Think about if, beforehand, the umbilicus *isn't* sufficiently stretched: the chick flies off until.....PER-CHOO!, the 'elastic' just ricochets them back home again: mission fail.) But if you suspect it's more than that, you could explain to Holly that a wounded animal is naturally given to wail, moan and lash out (inadvertently kicking the cat) or - the opposite - slink off to the bottom of the garden to hide for a while behind the garden shed (self-quarantining, i.e. are the kicked cat themselves). Whichever, she needs to try not to take it personally or as any reflection on her or her intrinsic relationship with her mum. It does now explain nicely why Holly's lately feeling so incredibly insecure and 'place-less', though, doesn't it. Case solved. 4. Why can't you see yourself telling dad he was right/you should have listened? Explicas, por favor? 5. "But he messed up and got him self in loads trouble yesterday by writing a message on fb to my mums 'friends'." Ohhhh, sh*t. "I was annoyed he didn't listen to me but had a feeling I hadn't got through to him and I should of checked with him." (6.) Same for your dad in regards to you and his careers lecture, eh. ;-) What a shame neither of you are Mary Poppins - "Utterly perfect in every possibly way [save for the nightly glass of rrrrrum punch]" LOL. You're probably scratching your head, going, Mary WHAT?! (go Google), but my point is - you *can't* be perfect, either of you. If you're perfect, you've stopped growing and developing. And things that no longer grow or develop are WHAT NOW? Yup - DEAD ALREADY. 7. Re passing on the hot choc tip: maybe you should? Beats arguing, that's for sure. Not that arguments aren't highly useful and necessary, of course. Just depends on how the people concerned handle it and whether their deep-down intention is to repair whatever's amiss. (8. All these people around you going to pieces and making messes, look. Yet here's you (and Tom), coping marvellously. And that, by the way, does allow for nights when you sob frustratedly or despairingly into your pillow (which is excellent good welfare maintenance). As my fave quote by Mary Pickford agrees, 'This thing we call failure is not the falling down but the STAYING down'.) 9. Why aren't you too sure about your dad's profile? Otro vez - explicas? 10. "I think he thinks me and my sis are a little team." You've got it. And don't worry about what USED to happen between him and little blister. That was then, this is now. Events change - feelings change - attitudes change - behaviour changes. This time they might LIKE Green Eggs & Ham, Sam-I-Am. :-) (Did you ever read Dr Seuss's "Cat In The Hat" series of rhyming books, by the way, or is this another head-scratcher? If it is - read them now, they're basically psychology and emotional welfare health tips for kids, illustratively nutshelled beautifully in 5 to 10 minutes flat .... whether 'on a train or in the rain, with a fox, in a box'. :-)) ...STOP PRESS!....STOP PRESS!......STOP PRESS!.... I've got THEEEEE BEST film you could all three of you watch while in this current climate: Pixar's "Inside Out". Forget the fact it's visually beautiful or fascinating and hilarious and sad (and back again) in equal measure - what's more is, it'll make all your brains go click-click-clickety-click-PING!-EXHALE-chill. ...Pubescent teenager that's pushed into own crisis (having to suddenly grow up by a massive chunk) by her parents' crisis/transition, all the workers and departments of every level of her psyche (the backroom boys/gals, as I call it) getting put under pressure like never before, having to adjust, play catch-up or prevent and pre-empt quick-sharpish to-suit. Won't say any more than that or I'll spoil it. But please just trust me and do it - you'll see. :-) Call it your homework, since I seem to have slipped into the role of life-coach. Accordingly, I'll be asking questions about it later (ha-ha, but seriously). 11. (As memory serves (albeit, granted, I was only 8 when I holiday-ed there), they have cheese and Parma Violets (and lots of steep hills) in Cornwall and tha's aboud it, moy luvlee, arrr. (Does Tom have a Cornish accent?)) Maybe Tom knows something you don't? But you could always at any point say, 'Best go check on Tom, see if he needs a sous chef'. Doubt you'll need it, though. And you're allowed to be nervous. Frankly, the parents would find it endearing, AS WELL AS a very encouraging sign re your depth of feelings for Tom. Basically, just be your natural, nervous self...give them the floor in that respect and see how they handle it/you, it'll be a bloody good litmus-dipping exercise. But, look, you have a clue already: Tom wants you to meet them and they you. He wouldn't want to do that if they were issue-ridden or socially inept idiots, would he. Your first argument, eh? Excellent. PS: Meeting the family - taking things slow, my bottom! And nor is his testing how p*ssed-off you'd be, seeing him giving time to a potential threat (not), 'taking things slow'. That was a button-push called, How much do you love me, ergo, how much will you care if I dooo (push)...THIS!? Like a toddler's noisily interactive toy, you made squeaks and certain of your lights lit up and even played an annoying little tune. Aim, Fire, Bullseye - Tom is now reassured. They all try it at some point, believe you me. So *that'll* be "why even". From your side of things, a little part of your mind would welcome an excuse to cancel the meeting the family. So that'll be why you rose to the bait. Does Tom worry that I could actually be some love interest or ex? Have you reassured him yet like I advised (because I foresaw this type of event possibility)? When exactly did this happen, what was the order re. your telling him about this thread and his (letting his) ex chat to him as you (whaddacoincidence, what were the chances...*rolls eyes*) walked in and saw? Don't let it put you in a weird mood. Men who aren't serious about you don't tend to try to get readings out of you (that say, "I'm naturally jealous because it's true I love you") by pushing your big buttons. Mr S did it to me, I did it to Mr S, he did it back, ...I did it back better, LOL.... And then, once we'd finished, we brought it all out from under-the-table and agreed it was a draw - we were both equally fruit-loopy over one another, both therefore as uncharacteristically insecure and trepidatious, both putting each other through hoops, tests and challenges to ensure we didn't end up with a repeat of our stinky ex relationships... it's part of the mating dance, no worries. COUGH - PARENTS! Bigger kids + bigger tenure and familiarity (thus harder to call the bluff) = bigger, longer-lasting hoops, etc.... "I've got a boyfriend, mleugh" / "Well, I've got a girlfriend, so mleugh back!". (Nooooo, you don't, ya tw*ts.) Welcome to so-called adulthood, Lily. Great!...doesn't it, LOL. Tip: try to always ignore the blah-blahs and surface actions and pay attention only to the definitive actions, like, I want to show you off to my parents and sibs. Now, why do you think he'd wanna do that, then. Gosh, me, I just can't think... (Don't panic though, doesn't mean he's about to pop the question "or nuffin'", but it does mean he can see you're the real deal with potential to match ergo must be put through some safety-check tests.) Oh, and if he asks you, 'WHY - ARE YOU JEALOUS?!' or any variation in that theme, here's what you say: "Well, DUH? Of course I am! You think a woman in-love doesn't want to PROTECT her relationship as much as the man? What do you think I am - STUPID?" And then watch him do a couple of minutes of goldfish impressions before he pounces amorously on you or whatever other indication of joy mixed with huge relief. I call it 'p*ssing on their firework' (using an antidote). Because it works. Well, why wouldn't it, it's the truth, isn't it? :-) That's another relationship success tip: You do *not* have to pretend you suddenly no longer love them or never did, just because you're angry at them for their bad or stupid behaviour. Ever. You make *that* over-common mistake and you'll start a whole negative interactional spiral (round, down, round...splat). Far better to throw an 'instant leveller' at them, like the above example. It's a bit like when your toddler yells, 'I hhhhhhhhhate you!'. You're not supposed to say, 'I hate you too, you little sh*t!', you say 'Well, that's a shame because I LOVE YOU TO PIECES!'. It gets in... it does it's magic...even if they try to keep up the act for longer, meanwhile. "Laters!".

Homework! Omg I love Home work, bl**dy h*ell I'm such a geek. Set me home work and I'm on it! I watched the trailer for Inside Out, last night and was like "yep, this is going to be good!" And then grabbed the sibs and made them watch it with me couldnt wait for sat night. It was awesome, totally get why understand you suggested. My brother for some reason thought it was going to be rubbish but when he finally stopped complaining, and watched he addmitted that he really liked it. I loved how it makes you think how your brain, personality and emotions work and it was all easy to understand. I loved all the characters, espically the imaginary friend but sad when he became a lost memory. I almost had to control myself from blubbing. It made my sister cry towards the end, (she's not been feeling well all week, so emotions were already quite high) I think she really related to the girl character, didn't matter its was cartoon, same age, on the verge of puberty, inbetween kid and teenager. She was like "I really liked the film, but it made me sad mum and dad aren't together" . At the time it was a little unexpected, she's been making out that she was coping by being positive, which is her normal out look on most things, so I thought she was doing ok, but actually I think shes been bottling things up and she's realised she had been ignoring them. So had a bit of consoling to do and told her to be more honest with herself. But thanks for the surggestion, I'm going to get Tom to watch it too think it will be his kinda film too and I wanna see it again. Good, I'm pleased my mum and dads self indulgence is just temporary, looking forward to the day when the wake up. By the sounds of my dads parents were possibly narassist people because they didn't give him a choice much of a choice career, they were both in the medical world too, and seemed like they were very controlling. My aunt came down to stay today, the whole atmosphere in the house has changed, it really nice almost feel normal. She also wants to talk to both my mum and dad together tomorrow so my dad coming round could be interesting. I'm worried about telling my dad I made a mistake because he to be loves being right and he doesn't like mistakes being made. To him its like the end of the world sometimes. It will be a long boring painful conversation when i decide to have it with him, where I will probably feel disgust, fear and anger < see what i did there?! :D. His answer will probably be to study biology at uni in hope that i might go down the medical route, no thanks. But he wouldnt force me into anything and he'll look ways to help, if i actually want to study psychology Becoming more and more appealing ! With Holly there is a little bit more background, not something I wouldn't normally blab about but the more I think about it, the more it makes as to why she's insecure like you said and why she feels like she needs to have a boyfriend all the time or attention. It's her step-mum who she doesn't get on well with. Her mum died when we were 12, it was a freak accident, she was just walking along the street and dropped something she was carrying, bent down to pick something off the ground and in the mean time a lorry had swerved out of control as car tried to over take on a dodgy corner and she ended up under the lorry and got crushed, she was on life support but never made it :(. Then not long after her dad met her step-mum who also had a daughter and within a year and half they have moved int and holly had to share a room with a little kid because her step-mum was pregnant and not long after that they got married. So she went from being an only child to a whole new family. But shes another one who is very good at hiding emotions and i've always been courteous when shes in a funny mood, like the other week and try not to fight with her on things. The argument with tom seems a bit stupid now but he has suddenly become a little bit more attentive, not that he wasnt before, but his ex has tried to talk to him a few times since tuesday, but now without being rude he'll just give her a closed answers and move away. We've also got a couple of date nights planned without friends :). He also saw I was nervous about meeting his family on sunday, originally it was just going to be me and him going to his brothers because his brother called him up and apprently said something like 'I got given some really nice meat and dont know what to do with it come and cook it for me and bring your new gf'. So hes been planning all week on how to cook this meal, hes very good, but not too sure how he manages to stay slim! But I think his mum said something so that she got invited too! SO On wednesday after texting his mum to make she wasnt doing anything 'embarrassing', we went round after school and I met her and the middle traveling brother too, feel bit more relaxed now. His mum was really nice And had baked cupcakes and got out the photo album and tom just died whilst we looked at photos and drank tea :) payback! The brother was friendly, a little more harder to read but I think he was jet lagged. I can now he was testing things just to see my reaction, quite clever really. I did tell him what you told me to tell him and he nodded and said 'ok' so dont really know what he was thinking . His ex started talking to him last friday and then on mon and tues which is why it annoyed me, 3 times she tried! Also Jamie the guy who i do the open night mic, for some reason told him we used to go out, what he failed to tell Tom was that we were like 8 and in primary school! Tom did ask me a couple of weeks ago about him i did think it was a bit weird and was like "I think Jamie has a crush on you" i was a bit like 'yeah right whatever', because he knows he my first propper soon to be serious bf. But that could of been it. He's got a little bit of an accent, when he pronounces certain words but to me he looks more like hes from cornwall in a surfer dude (he does surf or used to) kinda way! He keeps going on about driving down to falmouth where he used to live they've still got the family home there, sure i'll go one day. BYE Lx

I'm so glad you all enjoyed the film, I knew it would be just the ticket when it came to bonding and team-building (and uncorking of tears). And, yep, saw what you did there - very good, tres drole! :-) I'm also glad you're taking both your sibs under your wing the healthy way. I mean, you're okay (because you're older), as your flourishing relationship shows, but it's a fact that acute stress can affect younger kids' brain development in lasting ways. So you're not just being a great sister by looking out for their welfare and keeping them feeling safer than they might otherwise. Huge Karma Kredits coming your way, I reckon! (Do you believe in Fate yet?) (PS: How old's your sister again?) Poor Holly! Sounds like she's caught on one hell of a non-stop nightmare rollercoaster ride, and *right* from the wrong age! I mean - good grief - ALL THAT, ONE AFTER THE OTHER, NON-STOP?! She must be made of really strong stuff, Lily, not to have had a meltdown yet. Worth a re-appraisal regards to being someone you could bond really closely with? I'd have thought out of everyone, *she* is the one could provide the greatest moral support and understanding, and you might well find that if you did confide in her, out her own stuff would spill. She must feel *very* alone and isolated of late. Do you suppose a regular girls' night, say, once per fortnight, with Meg and Holly might be in order? As for Tom, sounds like he achieved an awful lot through that at-the-time seemingly cosy tete-a-tete with exipoos, not just the all-important litmus-paper dipping into your fluid. Appears like he felt the ex fully deserved to be used opportunistically (treated him badly, did she?) before finally being dispensed with in his bid to move on with his new life and you. I also note he didn't try to argue or put you straight in response to your pacification exercise regarding this forum...obviously liked what he heard (well done). :-) Additionally, he *might*, in fact, have been chatting to her to start the whole 'Out, damn spot!' process? (- name the famous Shakespeare play!). Whatever, his reactions say he evidently loved the read-out, while you yourself clearly can't help but be a tad impressed with his Honeymoon-typical, relationship-protective machination-ette. And his family evidently liked *you* (cakes baked specially, eh!). I don't believe the 'given some meat' and 'mum asked' story, btw. I think that's another face-saver excuse for, "*I* instigated it, but don't want you to know I did". ;-) What's clear to me is that Tom is utterly gaga over you, but naturally feels vulnerable and precarious for it, so is seeking reassurances as well as putting you through the odd, sneaky safety-check# (including getting his family's rubber-stamping), without in the process having to reveal too many of his cards in case it scares you off for his being "too heavy". (Again, typical for this point in the proceedings.) YOU know it's not too heavy for you, HE knows it's not, deeper-down. But that won't stop his fears nudging to get the better of him here and there... particularly when that Jamie fella is - "whoops!" - inciting Tom's mind to jump to conclusions. (Looks to me that Jamie either secretly fancies you or feels his performance assistant come friend is in threat of being taken away too much. But Tom will male-typically be like Bagpuss at the mo: "If I majorly fancy her, all my 'FRIENDS' must fancy her, too! (...in fact, every man out there!)". Parents are supposed to be right and know best; don't take that away from dad. However, if you want to avoid the 'told ya so' dance then I suggest you concede to his spot-on foresight and knowledge of you and how you tick, in a note left for him on the eve of the next switchover. [1] He can't crow at a piece of paper, can he; [2] he gets his rightful desserts (confirmation over his well-calculated judgement); [3] by the time you next see or speak to him he'll have pretty much lost the urge to do much 'told ya so-ing', if at all, anyway. Win/Win. Anyway, you could always gild his self-vindication lily [scuse pun] by explaining that you don't *want* to risk sullying what is becoming a keen, possibly life-long interest by turning it into a daily, 9-5 grind. I'd say that were a lot more flattering to his whole profession than pursuing it as a source of income, wouldn't you? By the way, showing one narcissistic trait, like pressuring your son to follow in your own career footsteps, does not bona fide NPD (or any illness/condition) make. Again, it's got to be a whole group of symptoms, displayed as standard, and to a certain degree (or fewer, more extreme examples). Even if his parents had been, note that where they forced him, his response is NOT TO FORCE YOU. That shows a clear, lasting, *healthy* amount of resistance and rebellion. If anything, he could have the immunity of being sufficiently touch of Asperger's? Certainly they're well known to flock toward any profession that lays on pre-set, interactional scripts and rituals - medical, forces, teaching, judiciary.. - as saves them considerably from ad-libbing thus having to risk putting their giant size 9s in it ("a-gain!"). 'The end of the world' reaction could align, too, with Aspie over-caring and frustrated Rescuer bent. But again, that's just educated conjecture at this point. Talking of Rescuer: Your auntie must really be fond of your mum and dad, their marriage and you kids to be willing to get so heavily involved. Are you lot the only real family she's got? Let me know what comes of the talk, won't you. PS: Falmouth's brilliant, you'd love it! Check out the tourist website.

My sister is 12 next week. I find it quite interesting watching her go from jump back and fourth. One minute she wants to play and enjoys being the baby of the family and then the next she wants independance and likes to experiments with make up ( my make up!) although doesn't wear any when out and about she's fairly sensible and can be a bit moody. Of course I was never like that. I think my aunt thinks my mum and dad are just being silly. one of the first things she said to me after arriving on Friday after saying hi was 'why is there a f**king for for sale sign out side the house ffs!?' and then 'oh hi tom', how she missed all 5'10 of him (or however tall he is) I'm not quite sure! (I also decided it was time for tom met my mum, she's been asking about him and she has recently become less emotional and with my aunt coming, was even less likely to cry on me/him/us.) Yesterday I purposely put myself in the lounge where I knew the parents and aunt would be talking, pretending to do homework. My dad tried to kick me out but my aunt was like 'no she's an adult, she can stay if she wants to!' . she knew what I was up to . She did it all very nicely and calmly but assertively and told them it's unfair how they're treating me and the sibs and asked them what exactly was wrong - they went on about meeting their 'new friends' and told her what they had told us not getting back together but think they can be friends. In the end there was a little bit of an out come firstly both apologised to me for how they've been acting - better late then never I guess . I had also mentioned my suggestion of marriage counselling ages ago and that they had never come back to me on that -who knows if it will actually help it was just a surggestion! They didn't quite say yes but they didn't flat out refuse like last time, was prob too soon back then anyways. My aunt has two sons, who she's spoilt quite badly and now their adults, their really competitive with each other and very self entered. Thinks she's just realising her mistake! Both have stopped speaking to her at the moment *rolls eyes*. She's always been around :D. Ohhh that's a very good idea on how to tackle my dad, he'll go through all the motions without me. Deffinately going to do that. interesting you think he might be a bit asperges, when ever he and I have argued in the past, my mum has always stepped in and often put him straight, unless I was in the wrong, and then she'd normally tell me not to worry and say 'I swear he's on the autism spectrum!'. I never really thought about it tell you said it too. Of course I'm now going to go and read up on it! Meg loves organising things so I think letting her arrange a fortnightly girls night out would be good . Holly is a strong person her, step mum really just cares about her kids and isn't thoughtful at all when it comes to Holly And her dad is now wrapped up in his new family. My mum used to be really good friends with her mum and in the beginning when all the change was going on, she used to talk to Holly all the time and be like a second mum. And Holly often came to stay at weekends - when she's felt like it. Could confine in her but I'm worried I'll get upset and then won't bounce back. Tom's ex is just not a very nice person! shes a bit of a bully but hides behind her 'friends, so teachers and others see her a sweet and innocent. she's very bitchy and was very persuasive over him. He wouldn't of known she was like this when he first started going out with her because like meg he joined at the beginning of sixth form. Holly and I were chose to take the new sixth formers under our wing, which is how tom and I met and became really good friends, until she swooped in and asked him out when I Kinda already had a bit of crush. She also used to be really good friend with Holly when we first stated secondary school which was until after her mum died and she said something really horrible to Holly about her mum and Holly obviously completely wrote her off as a friend! Went well today, toms oldest bro is really nice (they all were ) and his boyfriend are very flamboyant but not in an over the top annoying way, just really welcoming. I had to drive, because toms car wouldn't start, which meant doing the motorway, not been looking forward to doing but it's was either that or not go at all. Was already having a mini panicked attack but Joining the motorway was interesting toms words were 'Er, Lily I know you're already nervous and this is your first time, but it's probably would help if Opened your eyes whilst joining a motorway!' Was So scared, but he was quite good at giving advice and we got there in one piece, which was when tom kind breathed a sigh of relief and grinned at me and was like 'well that was an interesting experience but we'll see if there's a scenic route on the way home yeah?' cheeky git! So for the way home I let him sort out a very scenic route home and started to follow the sat nav but then saw signs for the motorway was feeling fairly confident, don't normally let things conquer me, and did the motorway, just to test his reaction since he's been doing that with me recently! Is that what you mean by p*ssing on his camp fire? :) L X

Only rewriting this extra post coz Things have been slightly eventful and I'm a bit confused! :( My sister got admitted into hospital yesterday morning, she's got a viral infection but only seemed to be getting worse. early Monday morning me and the parents took her to a&e she went all weak and and very pale :-/ she ended up in the children's ward because they were worried about her getting pneumonia, which is what my dad thought. She went through quite a lot they couldn't get a vain drip line into her because she was too dehydrated and she couldn't swallow anything so they kept were stabbing her. then she had an allergic reaction to one of them meds, which was a bit scary she suddenly got a rash all over her and couldn't breath properly. But she now got the right drugs going through her now. She's determined to be out by her birthday, which is Friday, I wouldn't like to be the one to tell her that's unlikely. Good luck parents and doctors! Anyways tom came to pick me up from hospital and he was his normal self. But then later when we were talking about stuff he asked me if I thought I really needed to be in a relationship at the moment he also said not to take it the wrong way he wasn't breaking up with me but he just wanted to make sure we shouldn't just be friends. Er little bit too late for that. Seriously?! I hadn't doubted our relationship for a moment other then be A tiny bit worried he might if said say something like above and then run away but I didn't dwell on it. So of course I got upset and he did reassure me, I just don't like the fact he asked! I did tell My aunt, she staying till sister is out of hospital now, think she noticed I had been crying . But she asked me what have I actually done to reassure him and to make sure give back too and not just him do all the giving . So I'm trying to think of how I can show him but feels like I'm just about holding onto him.

Will post tomorrow, again, bear with.

Taking your points roughly in order: 1. Your sister's transition from kid to adult mightn't be as smooth/gradual and seamless as yours, more like a learner driver, "kangaroo-ing" (lurching) when they fail to depress the clutch fully enough as they start off in 1st gear. My son was the same - one moment behaving like an impressive adult, conversation to match, the next, little pouty kid again ("JUST BECAUSE!"). But it is hard being at that 'neither here nor there' stage, particularly as you simultaneously get told you're 'too young to do X' despite being 'old enough to know better'. Put itching powder in your eyeshadow. (No, don't, I'm only joshing! :-D But at least you know what to get her for Xmas......a bottle of Jack Daniels and 20 fags, and that way she won't be able to locate your make-up bag from staggering and hacking like a navvy, LOL!) What's happening for Xmas, btw, in terms of 'timeshare'? 2. *I* think your parents are being (effing, chuffing) silly, as you know... albeit, I understand why. Liking how she stood up to your dad, I must say! She sounds like a right, no-nonsense character! Possibly newly more so, what with the fact this event will be secretly providing opportunities for lessons for everyone. (How old are her sons?) She also appears to be gearing up to actually kicking both their a*ses back into shape, don't you agree? Maybe she's going to do the typical thing of practise-run-ing on your parents before starting on knocking her sons' - the real deal's heads together? 3. Isn't it strange how they STILL, even at this fairly late stage with the cat supposedly out of the bag, insist on calling their supposed new beaus "friends". What - didn't even at this point want to 'name the puppies'? Yeah, funny, that. And also - apologising to you. Sounds like they're starting the process of of coming down from DefCon1. "They didn't quite say yes but they didn't flat out refuse like last time, was prob too soon back then anyways." Yeah, well, that's because they've a job to see through first, isn't it - this game of poker. Or, maybe not if they've moved on from flat-out refusing the idea of counselling? (Filing it for later, I'll bet.) Put that with the apology, your dad making way that bit too easily to Auntie ("Ma'am, YES MA'AM!"), and their not wanting to name (well, 'appropriately entitle') the puppies and... that's definitely a development for the better. You just wait and see what Christmas apart does to the pair of them, though [evil cackle]. Tip: do play the usual, cheesy Xmas CDs around each of them, wontcha. ;-) 4. So how did the introduction of Tom go? And did he manage to pick up on anything, any subtle signs? 5. (LOL - Asperger's.) "Of course I'm now going to go and read up on it!" I'd better be more careful about what I say from now on or we could see you disappearing under a huge mound of books! LOL Try the Wrong Planet website. They provide detailed descriptives of NPDs, as well (being as how Aspies make prime partner targets). 6. "Could [confide] in her but I'm worried I'll get upset and then won't bounce back." Who, you? NAAH. No, I think you should let Holly have that control (organiser). Or at least let her see you give her the option before then, if necessary, asking Meg. Holly needs to stop seeing you as a threat, see. Saying that, for all we know, Holly's past attempts to 'steal' Meg might be nothing of the sort and secretly a bid just to get *your* attention, especially now she's lost access to your mum and those sleepovers with you - her 'safe port' and place of belonging. (Yeah, Tom's ex doesn't exactly sound like a happy or sorted bunny, does she. Are you noticing more and more now, how practically *everyone* in this world has some issues or other?) 7. "but it's probably would help if Opened your eyes whilst joining a motorway!'" LOL! "I let him sort out a very scenic route home and started to follow the sat nav but then saw signs for the motorway was feeling fairly confident, don't normally let things conquer me, and did the motorway, just to test his reaction since he's been doing that with me recently! Is that what you mean by p*ssing on his camp fire? " (On his firework, LOL. Yes.) You're a fast learner in more than one sense, look! :-) 8. "she's got a viral infection but only seemed to be getting worse." She's uncorking her bottled-up grief...just out of the wrong hole (so to speak). She might have to celebrate her birthday in the ward. That's what happens when you try to bottle things up, eventually it comes out physically by hook or by crook. It's like a Bunny-Boiler, stress...follows you around and plays havoc until you finally agree to engage with it....'isn't going to just let you IGNORE it, Dan!' (- name the film!). Hope she makes a speedy recovery, though. 10. You AND THE PARENTS took her, eh? Noted.... noted, that for a supposedly divorcing couple - MY, aren't they an exemplar in cooperation! (You'd be surprised, Lily, you'd be surprised. Especially these days.) Crap actors, aren't they... can't even convince themselves enough to convince other grown-ups, like Auntie and I. :-p (Obviously things can change whereby feelings and decisions change, but AT THIS POINT, I'm still with her.) 11. Don't worry about what Tom said, he's just projecting his own fears and worries. Again, another button-push to see how you react and how fervently...because it worked to get a reading the first time so has proven a reliable method. I told you - he's hit that really insecure-making point where he's realised how into you he really is, and doing the usual panicking and "what if?-ing". So that's his "2", meaning, if he thinks he spots ANOTHER "2" (you being mentally distracted at times, naturally?), he's apt to pounce on it and think he's got an early-warning sign of a "4" (you going off him or bound to go off him at some point). I suggest next time he comes out with anything like that, you remember it's to hear you 'squeak' and try *not* to rise to it, instead use humour and say something silly and drily sarcastic like, 'Weeeell, you do SMELL so.....maybe I ought to re-think Harry Stiles's offer, after all?..... but, naaaaah, it's alright, I quite *like* your unique pong, truth be told'. Alternatively, you could blank the alarmist statement altogether, and just turn to him and say, 'Is there something you want to ask me or need me to reassure you over?'. Or there's my own favourite: "Awww, shaadap, woman!". Make *Tom* have to come up from under, in other words. But - "So I'm trying to think of how I can show him but feels like I'm just about holding onto him." - you couldn't be further from the truth! He just wants to be your All, that's all, and - being in insecure/not-thinking mode, isn't checking himself and remembering it's not always All About Him. But Auntie could be right in that you're not remembering to keep fluttering your lashes up at him? Ridiculous, isn't it, given everything that's going on. But that's men for ya once they enter, "eek, I could lose her!" mode. Can't think of A.......NYTHING other than their own, unfamiliar degree of vulnerability in your hands.

Quick joke for ya: Why was 6 scared of 7? Because 7 8 9. ...which is obviously what happened up there, LOL.

Oh, can stress really make you that ill might have to explain this my sis about this just so she knows. Lol, itching powder in eye shadow, that would of been very appealing in the past! Don't mind sharing but There have been so many times where I couldn't find half my make up, gone into my sisters room and it's on the floor, grr... Yeah, looks like she's having her birthday on the ward today, not impressed. My dad stayed on Sunday night was a bit weird (on the sofa) because he was worried about my sister, apparently he was there all day Sunday too. I didn't quite get my sisters thinking but she wanted me to come to the hospital so she wasn't alone with my mum and dad. But when I went a saw her yesterday she told me they had been arguing when together in front of her :-l think that's what she had been worried about. F.g.s! On a children's ward too? Luckily it's a small ward and there's is only one other kid but still. Mature, very mature the reason, why they were arguing when I asked them about it is even more pathetic! Don't think my parents have talked about xmas but I've already decided I'm going to tell my parents what I'm doing. I want to be at home, as my aunt is coming to us and we've not has xmas with her in years but that does mean my dad gets left on his own but there is Boxing Day. There is an alternative, toms family were talking about xmas on Sunday and they all go down to Cornwall till new year and Tom's mum said to me 'come at some point if you can' tempting! but that feels a bit soon, apparently she meant it too. I like how my aunt stands up to my dad too, she was a school matron at a boarding school, so she really doesn't take any crap, apart from when it comes her own kids. She still texts them and try's to call but the only person that responds to her is her daughter-in-law, who is actually quite nice and normal. I'd love it if my aunt kicked my cousins arses into shape, I think it's well over due! I'd also quite happily do it for her :) but er, they're bigger and uglier, so I'd probably fail! They're both in their mid twenties the older one is OK-ish in very short bursts but the younger one really is a spoilt, tantrum throwing, little twerp, probably why he's been single for like, ever. I think he's the one dragging this whole thing on. Reason is, My aunt isn't giving out xmas presents year. she's giving money to a Parkinson's charity and hospital and that is what their p*ssed off about, even though they have known about this all year, she's not exactly been quiet about it. Also one of her sons birthday is in December too and obviously he's getting a present but the younger son *sniggers* isn't getting a 'non bday present', which my aunt has always done when it's the others sons bday so other doesn't get left out *rolls eyes*. But I have a feeling she's going to give in and make peace that way. she keeps on asking me and my mum if she's being selfish. Yep my parents are sh*t actors, I'm so bored of it all now but it's frustrating at he same time. I can't believe they are still using these friends as an excuse. My mum really liked tom, apparently he's 'very handsome, and nice blues eyes' such a typical motherly thing to say. Tom's view was although he liked her, was that he didn't think he got 'real her', as in all he saw was that she is really sad and (without being rude) a bit flakey, which is true. she was more nervous about meeting him. He also seems to think they're not gonna go to marriage counselling and were just saying that because my aunt was there and they possibly scared of her he can see how she can be a bit intimidating. He's also not sure if the apology was totally sincere. He likes being honest! Holly really liked the idea of a twice weekly girls night out no boys allowed. She busy organising something for next Friday. Yeah Its a lot more notable that everyone does have their own problems. With toms ex I wouldn't be surprised if she has quite a few problems and eating disorder, too skinny. I loved toms reaction when he finally realised I was heading for the motorway (he was playing a really annoying, stupid football game on his phone) He did the gold fish impersonation like you said and was like 'but I thought we were going the long way back ...are you sure you want to go on the motorway again?!'. He now thinks I have a rebellious streak, I see it as more keeping him on his toes :) . I thought he might of been pushing the buttons again and If I wasn't really tired or emotional on Monday he might of got a different reaction from me, which probably would of been to challenge him a bit on it and ask him roughly what you put 'is there something you want to ask me?' Rather then tears! Not a great time to ask something like that though. Would of been interesting to see his reaction if I had said 'ok let's be friends then'. There were other questions going through my head like 'we're things going too slow?' Its deff not going too fast. Is he getting bored', Should we just be friends. he made me start to doubt myself. There was a little bit of tension between us the next day at school but we're back to normal again now. If I reassure him more, I'm Kinda hoping he gong to snap out of it! My aunt came up with an idea by suggesting we go and stay in her house over the weekend or at least for the day, partly so I can bring her back some more clothes back! I wasn't too sure with sis being in hospital but she practically insisted and was like just go and have fun and get to know each other more! I thought tom wouldn't be keen and would be working but he's is willing to pull a sickie. He got a new after school job too, so he's not that bothered. My aunt is going to text her sons were there for the weekend and surgest they go round . noooooooooooo! (N) will just make sure we're really busy. I liked the. Joke deff is what going!

** going on

I'm surprised your parents couldn't contain themselves in a situation as inappropriate as all that. But there again, I'm not surprised at all (desperate is as desperate does, including not feeling confident enough about arguing without "a chaperone-ANY-chaperone!"). Despite being how a couple would behave merely under a cloudy to stormy climate, the fact remains - they're still behaving like one! Why does your dad have to be on his own on Xmas Day? :-O What with you able to drive, now, couldn't you take yourself and your siblings over to see him for a couple of hours or so? What about 'breakfast' and lunch at mum's and supper at dad's? Not only would that be fairer, but ("buy one, get one free") it would also have your dad sat thinking about your mum while you're with her and your mum doing likewise when you're over at his. Keeps things (regret and wistfulness) balanced. Why do you see it as too soon to visit down in Cornwall over the holiday period? How long have you and Tom been dating? Or are you just a bit freaked-out at the seeming rapidity and heaviness of it? Your aunt was a school matron? LOL, say no more! Well - manner-wise, anyway. What was going on around the time the younger son was growing up, to have made him so spoilt? But, listen, he can't be behind the current impasse unless his older brother is LETTING him. So they obviously share the same beef... in which case I'll edit that statement to: What was going on around the time BOTH boys were growing up that now has younger brother playing Bad Cop and mouthpiece to his less forthright, less confrontational older bro? Here's my opinion on auntie's proposal: if she wanted to donate to a charity, why couldn't she do that AND give her sons at least SOMETHING as gifts or even go half-and-half? Don't you think this (and the fact she's basically been reminding them (i.e. rubbing it in) over and over) indicates an excuse to withhold gifts? Obviously, it's not the gifts themselves (nor the 'non-birthday' gift) the sons are p*ssed-off about, but what the withheld act says and means (- behave/grow up or the cute puppy gets it!). I suspect auntie is expressing her end-of-tether frustration and desperation with them, IOW. Shame she let things get to that state in the first place, really, isn't it. They obviously feel she 'owes them mothering', still. And I'd say the 'non-gift gift' is indicative of her having over-indulged them for too long on that score and now finally having to deal with that 'comes around'; it's called 'creating a rod for your own back'. But I do think picking on important ceremonies to have her 'say' is a bit below-the-belt, I have to say. Has she never heard of a serious pow-wow? Look at the parallel, Lily: your mum can't just talk straight and honestly (i.e. get real) with her own husband and her sister can't do likewise with her own sons. Did both sit on problems rather than deal with them at the time too? I don't think she's being 'selfish', I think that's the wrong word. The word is, cheating, trying to deal with something the wrong and lazy, short-cut/one-hit-wonder way, rather than deal with it properly and more appropriately. There are better ways to say, 'I know I made the mistake of pandering too much to you and thereby giving you an over-sense of power and say over me when you were kids but now it's time for you to hoik yourselves up by your bootstraps, grow the eff up and grow some respect'. Easier said than done, though. I mean, you can't complain that two carpenters should be capable at their age of sanding a tabletop if back when you were supposed to be training them up as carpenters you denied them that lesson as well as any permanent sandpaper, can you? Well, anyway, that's her 'desperate is as desperate does' business and limbering-up exercise (watch that space). But if she wants them to grow up fast she should buy each of them a puppy, get them thinking about needs outside of their own. Preferably from a dog shelter (= charity act PLUS not picking on the sacrosanct). What does your mum say when she asks that? Tom's mum obviously likes you, too, Lily. :-) No doubt helped by the fact she (I take it) doesn't have a daughter? "He's also not sure if the apology was totally sincere. He likes being honest!" Was he there, did he hear and witness the apology for himself? If not, what makes him think that? "Holly really liked the idea of a twice weekly girls night out no boys allowed. She busy organising something for next Friday." Excellent! I'll bet she'll go all-out as well (again, watch that space). Could be eating disorder (Tom's ex), could be stress. Some people over-eat when stressed, some can't hack food full-stop. "He now thinks I have a rebellious streak," LOL - no comment! :-D "I thought he might of been pushing the buttons again and If I wasn't really tired or emotional on Monday he might of got a different reaction from me" Typical confrontations-hating male. They positively wait UNTIL you're low, HOPING you'll be too tired or run-down to rear up (fail, LOL). That way they can say, 'it's not me, it's your PMT'. No it's not, PMT only affects how *strongly* you react, not 'whether'. Women are programmed to tackle the foe to immediately convert it to friend, men are programmed to retreat; study; then tackle, i.e. stick head in sand and hope it'll go away or fix itself before they risk wasting valuable energy (less stored-up fat, less energy to waste, innit). "Would of been interesting to see his reaction if I had said 'ok let's be friends then'." OR...'I don't want that, that's the last thing I want, but, if you do, I fail to see there'd be anything I could do about it. So - do you?' "If I reassure him more, I'm Kinda hoping he gong to snap out of it!" Difficult balance to strike, though. You don't want to over-feed his ego to where he'd get bulshy, so my recommendation is to do it in little portions so that once you can tell he's relaxed you can leave it there, keep that level maintained (until you can see it's time to turn that dial up some more, commensurate with how much deeper-in he's become since the last wobble). Adding that with this, auntie's instinct: "My aunt came up with an idea by suggesting we go and stay in her house over the weekend or at least for the day, partly so I can bring her back some more clothes back! I wasn't too sure with sis being in hospital but she practically insisted and was like just go and have fun and get to know each other more! I thought tom wouldn't be keen and would be working but he's is willing to pull a sickie. He got a new after school job too, so he's not that bothered." Are you on the pill yet?

OK there has been a bit of change. My parents have been arguing ever since their stupid argument in the hospital, it just seemed to spark off more rows. Even though my aunt has now had to go home, my mum and dad didn't care that she was there or what time of the day/night it was. At first I thought it was a good thing because at least they were communicating and it was better then them not talking at all but it then it got really annoying and quite sh*t. I talked to my dad because the arguing was really starting to effect The sibs and me, and for once in like months, he actually talked to me properly. He has told my mum he wants to draw a line under everything thats happening between them and try and work things out. Finally one of them has said what they actually want! BUT My mum is saying she doesnt feel the same anymore, I dont know why, my dad seems to have an idea but i don't really want to hear it at the moment it wasnt quite hard hearing him tell me that. I feel quite angry with her but my dad has told me to leave it to him and to come and talk to him if I need to. I think my aunt has made him see sense somehow, with communicating with me and the sibs more, and as to what he wants, I know they've both had a few conversations whilst shes been staying with us. I don't think my dad is making my mum out to be a bad person or shifting all the blame onto her because he looked pretty gutted when he was telling me this. My dad also doesnt want to sell the house and he wants move back in, one of the main reasons they have been arguing, I knew it! He is saying its his house, he brought with his parents money, he built it and pays most of the bills and he can afford to keep it. My mum buys food and pays for holidays, all that kinda thing. I have no idea how thats going to all work out all sounds a bit messy. He did say he's going to start looking into mediation between him and my mum if she doesnt want to stay with him. :(. So bit of a carp week! I really need a night out tonight. I think something like what you suggested will happen at xmas now, i also have tom to fit in now (yey).He has told his new work he will work Christmas day, that really didn't go down well with his parents :-/ he decided ( without telling me) to tell them this when i was round his house, so he could say it and run but his plan failed because their reaction was "YOU AGREED TO WHAT?!', turned into a bit of a discussion but he says hed rather have new year off. He also thinks they are worried he's not going to go to uni because this new job could lead to things (its in a resturant, his kinda thing) because they havent been that encouraging. Up to him really. SO he won't be in Cornwall at xmas and hes asked if he can come and see me in the evening wherever I will be! Then we both might go down to cornwall till new year. We've been going out for just over two months but yes was a bit freaked out when his mum said that but now I think i need to get away and tom might of sad yes to working this to get me to go with him! Well i thought my aunt was more practical then my mum, and my mum just worries about things rather doing something about it but maybe they are both the same when it comes to family. My mum did tell her its nice that she wants to give to charity and can see why she wants to do it but like you said, small gift would be nice, think that is what she is going to do now. But no one was going to get a present (apart from the little kids in the family) from her because she wanted to give a decent amount. And she has Parkinson's and feels like she wants to give back, i starting to see it form both sides. I think maybe my aunt has spoilt the cousins because their dad left them/her? Cant really think of anything else that would of gone on. Both cousins area really competitive with each other but the younger cousin always goes too far. The older cousin and wife invited me and tom to the pub on saturday night when we were at my aunts last weekend. I really didn't want to go but tom wanted to meet them and was like 'he can't be that bad!' And he wasnt really, he was actually quite nice, might be because he's become a dad recently. My other cousin showed up on Sunday morning, i was quite hung over and not really in the mood and all he seemed to do was moan about my aunt , but Tom was quite interested in the whole thing.. No toms mum doesnt have a daughter that i know of but I like her too, both his parents very easy to talk to :). Tom hasnt pushed anymore buttons but i'm practising what to say in my head if and when he does! Hes already quite confident, dont want him gettting bulshy and If he ever tries the pmt thing with me well, that wont go down well! Yes on the pill now , my dad was on my case, i get why, and I was getting a bit of encouragement from Tom too because erm...we're getting.a bit closer. But wouldn't of slept with him at my aunts house, whatever my aunt thinks, would of felt wrong. Holly has also been warning me that it can make you go a bit mentall hormonal wise which is why she had to come off it. Hopefully not the same for me.

1. "My dad also doesnt want to sell the house and he wants move back in, one of the main reasons they have been arguing, I knew it! He is saying its his house, he brought with his parents money, he built it and pays most of the bills and he can afford to keep it. My mum buys food and pays for holidays, all that kinda thing. I have no idea how thats going to all work out all sounds a bit messy. He did say he's going to start looking into mediation between him and my mum if she doesnt want to stay with him." 'His' house? Que? Did someone forget to tell him he's married and that from the second he said "I do" there ceased to be any 'mine', *regardless* of whom overall was front-room person or back-room person the entire time? Even if your mother had never contributed a single material, tangible or monetary thing, she still owns 50% of literally all marital wealth and assets. That's the law. Does he not know that simple basic or do you think he's relying on your mother believing him out of her own ignorance over rules of divorce so that she'll change her mind rather than risk seeing herself financially worse off? Or did he just mean 'my house TOO'? Well, anyway, if your mum doesn't feel the same AS SHE USED TO then it's quite simple and as I suspected from the start: despite he must have wooed to catch her originally, your father for however long hasn't been doing enough of his wooing-to-keep-her duty in order to keep that 'pan of milk' nicely simmering. He obviously let the gas flame go out or remain too low whereby the milk got to cool down too much (albeit, if she's arguing she didn't get so cold as to form an actual skin, luckily). So the answer's equally simple, then, isn't it - he has to find a way to start heating her back up. And this time he's going to have start heating her from Cool rather than from Warm, which is difficult when your access is restricted. However, there is still always bouquets, chocolates, champagne; holographic photos of you kids inside crystals [seen that one work like a dream!]; creating an excuse to ask to discuss either or all of you kids (progress, problems, future plans, whatever) over an evening restaurant meal on him ("I won't have had time to have supper beforehand and presume neither will you, so I figured we may as well combine it...why not?") and making it an impressive, intimate restaurant ("Gosh, who knew this place was so nice?"); offering to do favours/DIY/heavy lifting at wherever she's staying//booking her car in for a service...that sort of thing, crafty or otherwise. But that 'it's MY house, MY money' nonsense, if true and genuinely meant (or even if not), is going to achieve nothing but send her even colder. It matters not if the woman can see through any ploys because that's just her conscious mind, the rest of her will be LOVING it and telling conscious her to keep her beak out, shut the eff up, take it like a woman and keep her rain out of *its* parade, "thanks very much!". I know it's hard on men's hearts and egos, but if a woman goes cool or cold on you, responding negatively (withdrawing, withholding, sulking, moaning, picking fights to get and gauge a reaction, trying to pull in 'the other woman' to stoke jealousy...all of that sort of rubbish) is only going to exacerbate things so is the WORST thing you could do (a woman wants a man, not another child). As a man used to putting his heart on the line and taking risks, therefore, you need to shove your feelings and ego aside, put on your big boy's pants, and step up to the challenge of wooing the woman like crazy all over again, same as you managed relatively easily at the start. Simple as that. Could you explain that to your dad outright or could you do it surreptitiously - plant the idea in his head - by asking him (when you're at his) to watch Pretty Woman and other such 'boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy re-chases and re-captures girl' rom-coms with you after the sibs have gone up to bed? He needs to see the Vertigo-ridden "Edward" (Richard Gere) LITERALLY stepping up - up Vivien's (Julia Robert's) fire-escape staircase, all the scary way to the top floor with a rose between his chattering teeth despite the fact of her earlier that day having told him they wanted different things so it was Over, thereby demonstrating that having or providing more money than the woman is immaterial because in matters of the heart, hearts have equal status. "Over, my a*se!", he said (or rather, *did-said*), 'It'll be Over only when *I* say it's Over!'. THAT'S the spirit! That's cooking on gas. Basically, he needs to revert to being like the young, keen-as-mustard, 'not taking No for an answer' man he was when they first met. That's what attracted her to him, what had her sold when it came to agreeing to say 'I do', that's what'll RE-attract. Hardly rocket science. And if he never was like that then he'd better start to learn how, now, toute suite. No self-pitying noises, no whimpering or petulance and requests for clemency...You wouldn't give a car showroom rep your hard-earned cash if his sales spiel went something like this, "Granted, it's can be a bit of a lemon but it's not its fault that the clutch needs replacing and the tyres are bald or that it doesn't start well from cold (etc), the poor thing", would you. That would turn you OFF. You get sucked in because the rep goes on and on PROUDLY about all its other *attractive, desirable and positive* features and qualities. Same principle applies here. 2. "I think something like what you suggested will happen at xmas now, i also have tom to fit in now (yey).He has told his new work he will work Christmas day, that really didn't go down well with his parents :-/ he decided ( without telling me) to tell them this when i was round his house, so he could say it and run but his plan failed because their reaction was "YOU AGREED TO WHAT?!', turned into a bit of a discussion but he says hed rather have new year off. He also thinks they are worried he's not going to go to uni because this new job could lead to things (its in a resturant, his kinda thing) because they havent been that encouraging. Up to him really. SO he won't be in Cornwall at xmas and hes asked if he can come and see me in the evening wherever I will be! Then we both might go down to cornwall till new year. We've been going out for just over two months but yes was a bit freaked out when his mum said that but now I think i need to get away and tom might of sad yes to working this to get me to go with him!" And are you saying here that Tom fibbed or over-inflated the hours he has to work that day so that he can be with you rather than his family as well as be ready for the off together to Cornwall? 3. "I think maybe my aunt has spoilt the cousins because their dad left them/her? " You got it. The danger can start when a divorcee of whatever gender, no longer having a wife or husband, [1] makes the son(s) or daughter(s) the 'Little Man/Woman of the house' as well as on-call confidante, without even realising what they're doing or that they're doing it, and [2] gives too many privileges, treats and over-attention in order to make up for having 'given' the child such a crap other parent as placed them in this current broken-home predicament, and assuage their associative guilt in the process...go overboard, basically. The kid gets over-promoted, over-prematurely...the power (without the requisite experience and insight) goes to their young heads..and then, by the time the adult reaches the point either where they find the real-deal replacement lover or wakes up and reverts to being the strong, capable, independent adult they once were, the damage is already done and your kids are right cocky little over-entitled shisters that think they can dictate and demand in matters that technically are none of their concern or, more simply, still see themselves as the parent's equal (like the parent unwittingly conditioned them to be when needing an ear/shoulder/company) with equal say in all things, and argue accordingly. If she's trying to signify 'you have no say because it's MY money, MY power of decision-taking' then she's going too far too soon and should be weaning them off that power pedestal far more gradually. If you want someone to get off a certain chair, you can't try to WHIP IT AWAY in one fell swoop like that or the sitter will either hold on for dear life to said chair back/arms (tug-o'-war) or be resigned to having their bum rudely meeting the hard floor (injury + hurt, anger and resentment). 4. "but Tom was quite interested in the whole thing.." Hee-hee...."Real, live lab-rats, yum-yum". Tom's trying to 'save' you...by first working it out and getting to the bottom of it all. 5. "Tom hasnt pushed anymore buttons but i'm practising what to say in my head if and when he does! Hes already quite confident, dont want him gettting bulshy and If he ever tries the pmt thing with me well, that wont go down well!" LOL, no it won't. Especially if at the time you actually *do* have PMT! But he IS going to experience more wobbles, now that he feels your entwine-ment has hit a point of no (or too difficult and pain-laden) return. It's one thing to be confident when you're in any comfort zones, but, realising how 'locked-in' you are with 'the greatest thing since sliced bread, the ONLY woman in the world for you, gush-gush', can make even the most confident man in the world feel uncharacteristically vulnerable and insecure at times (and showing it). Well, you know how it feels, don't you, because you're in it with him. But he'll be slightly ahead of you in that respect, thus starting to wobble first and at times setting you off. 6. Phew! But it's not about being ready to go, it's about being ready IF OR WHEN you find yourself ready to go. There's the diff that makes ALL the diff. Don't worry about what Holly said, there are LOADS of makes and variations of pill, meaning, if one gives you any undesirable side-effects you simply tell your GP and s/he immediately switches you to another type/make (despite you have to wait a few weeks all over again for it to kick in). Sometimes you're lucky and the first ever prescription suits you down to the ground, sometimes it's a suck-and-see experiment between you and the doc to find that perfect recipe. All depends on how 'difficult' you are. ;-) You're not, so... PS: Ref her 'unspoken, open invitation', Auntie was obviously a bit of a hippy-chick back in her day. Still, I'm sure any of your parent-figures that love and care about you both would much prefer that WHEN you do it, it's somewhere safe, warm and familiar rather than halfway up a tree or some bus-shelter somewhere....because, let's face it, no-one can stop the tide, not even parents, so - if you're going to do it, the pair of you, then you'll find a way, regardless, in which case they may as well accept the fact and use their adult control and responsibility to help 'the way' to be as reassuring for them and as snug and safe-feeling for you as possible. Or Cornwally, LOL. If you have any worries about [scuse pun] the ins-and-outs, but feel 'icky' about asking your dad or mum, feel free to ask me - we're both completely and utterly anonymous on here and can, within reason and watching our decorum, discuss anything you like. For example, a tube of Lube for your first time (preferably edible in case it gets on your fingers, and which costs as little as around £5-10 with delivery on websites like Ann Summers or Boux Avenue) would be reassuring to have at-hand (because nervousness isn't exactly conducive in that respect) even if you don't end up needing to use it. Oh, and a wet-wipe....to wipe the huge grins off your faces afterwards, LOL. And this phrase: 'That strikes as too much too soon for me, for our first time, I'm afraid'...not that you'll need that, either, what with Tom being such a caring, nurturing gent....which reminds me: be under no illusion...realise that, attempts to appear confident/experienced or not, Tom will be FAR more nervous than you...because, as he sees it, he's the one that has to do most of the performing and impressing (pressure-pressure-pressure!) in order to bring you, the pan of milk, to the fast boil and wanting a repeat next time...in which case, this kind of phrase, likewise, is a handy one to have up your sleeve: 'Well, *I* don't care. Just being skin-to-skin with you was thrill enough for me at this point. And anyway, Torville & Dene never won Gold first time together, did they; it took practise...lots and lots of practise [grin]' Lastly but not leastly, if it ALL feels like going to far too soon then there's always asking to just literally cuddle and sleep with each other with your clothes on for now.

I'm sure my dad does know, my mum does I checked with her, think my dad did mean ' its my house too' and he has more of an attchement to it. Even though the house hasnt even had an offer my mum is looking at houses all the time on the internet, so I think my dad has some convincing to Do. My dad asked me over the weekend if I think he should get my mum a christmas present and I told him yes, but he also needs to do more then just a present and he asked me what I meant (really?), so I told him some of the ideas above and then he went quiet and he's probably thinking and planning, well I hope he is! Think the seed has been planted. Seriously, Tom could give him lessons in how to do nice guestures or he could turn up at my dad house with a bunch or flowers and chocolates for me :D. Clearly his foot has come off the gas! I think my parents do need to go out talk about us and look at how this is effecting my sibs and me and all the other things, going out somewhere together is proabably out of the question at the moment though, they're still arguing but not as much as last week. I've been getting a bit panicky recently, sort of having little panicky moments, go a bit weird and dizzy, happened at school and sometimes when im driving (I pull over) or when im on my own. Tom is convinced its axniety and stress has down loaded a 'mindfulness' app on my phone, he was a bit stressed when he moved from cornwall and apprently this app really helped. Not tried it yet but es gonna keep bugging me till I do. He's also been waiting for me to react physically in some way. My sister was a bit of a brat this weekend, could of been hormoans but one minute she was fine then the next she was crying, then really sulky or angry and had a bit of an attitude. Normally she's not that bad and I can talk her round but she was having none of it. We went Christmas shopping and she just buggered off and when my dad confronted her she was like 'I have a mobile now, all you have to do is call me, duh'. I had to tell him to chill out quite a few times otherwise he was going to loose it with her. Its usually my brother but he's been ok. I think tom was trying to please his new boss. he was given the option of working christmas and new year and he choose to work christmas day. I did say to him, if i did go to cornwall i wasnt going to drive, going to get the train or something, its like a six hour drive or more so i dont know if he thought that was a way to go together. Was slightly awkward though, it almost looked liked he had choosen to work so he could see me rather then be with his family! I understand my cousins a little more now :D all makes sense. No don't feel comfortable talking to either parents, before i might of talked to my mum and got advice from her but shes not right frame of mind but she hasn't even asked me how serious we are. I'm sure my dad would love some sort of insight, but he's so too open its so embarressing, so ok I will keep it clean and thanks for the tips. Only thing i'm worried about is that it will proabalby hurt and I'm really nervous, Holly was giving me all the details on Friday night. Hes a little more expierenced then me coz of hs ex. Part of me just wants to get it over and done with and the other part is telling me to wait and it will happen when it happens, but I'm starting to feel more and more comfortable with him. literally when we were at my aunts and when i have stayed round his we do just hug and normally watch a film and he normally falls asleep first! Quite cute when he's sleeping though, I discovered has really long eye lashes too :D (shut up me). He's been testing things a bit more very recently, mentions foreplay and paying more compliments, which I'm crap at taking but don't think it will be too long.

Forgot to say above, I'm going to leave my dad a note about a levels like you suggested a while ago this weekend and then leg it ha. Don't know why I'm nervous of his reaction but I am. I did tell my mum a couple of weeks ago I should of taken psychology for a level and even she gave me a quizzical look said 'didn't you say tom wanted to study psychology at uni?'. She thought I wanted to study English and I was doing it because of him, so we could potentially be at the same uni, if we're still together, and told me I should do what I want to do. I had to explain that it is what I wanted to do. The more I read then more interested I am :). Now she's like if that's what you want to do then go for it. She also thinks that leaving my dad a note it a really good idea and she's told me to be very factual and positive and his reaction might not be so, I told you so. I've looked into it a bit more, I could go to college after school and do pychology there but not liking that idea as much. Just got to get the grades and because I'm doing alevel biology it helps and some unis want a science other aren't too bothered. It's just me and my dad this weekend and I have lined some romance films up :).

Bear with again, Lily - I should have time to do some posting tomorrow. :-)

Amazing how long this subject has lasted. BTW lily good hear that your concentrating on your grades that's important

Ok :) Scopes, I know, it's quite long! Before my parents separated and bf came along too I guess, my life was very ordinary and boring, wouldn't of had much to write about. At the moment things are changing a lot but it's all put into prespective for me and I appreciate it. ah, grades, gotta get them first! :-/ :)

Lily you're a good daughter to care about your parents. And you're also focusing on your future which is a good thing I'm using your alot aren't I. This subject should receive a longest subject running award from peoples problems. Let's keep it going :-D

Thank you, I care coz I don't really want them to get divorced but if they're going to be miserable and argue, I can't really stop them. I think they think I'm being bossy when I suggest things to them.

(Nope, not even remotely the longest-running thread we've had on here, Scopes. Try, for example, searching 'Vildar' or 'Moody_One' - you'll see. :-)) ************* Eyup, Lils! 1. 'My house too'. Noted (ta). Was just checking. 2. Well done, good instinct, for having told him Yes. (And I agree: "really?" That does go a long way to showing just how little he knows when it comes to how women tick, doesn't it, so - yes, Tom definitely could give him lessons!) 3. You do sound like you've been experiencing panic or stress attacks. Do you suppose this has all been harder on you than even you care to admit? Have you ever tried taking Valarian or Chamomile (from a health food shop)? They work. They don't work if you don't need them but you notice the difference when you do. But all you need to remember is what I told you earlier, that you and your siblings' lives are going to be anywhere between fine/same as usual or however much improved. And even your parents will come out of this 'wash' perfectly okay or better than before. See this whole event/process as like teething: the new gnashers at the end of it will make the pain and discomfort entirely worth it. You'll see. 4. Your sister's finally got with the conscious programme, thus you're seeing a delayed reaction coming out. Her changing and fluctuating hormones won't be helping matters, either. Neither will this unavoidable attitude: 'Why the hell should I be on perfect behaviour when you two aren't?!' plus 'If I seemingly disappeared for x hours, would you even notice or give a sh*t?'. And then there's the little known fact of her mind using this period of a somewhat lack (on either parent's part) of attentive supervising and restraining to 'play while the cat's away', acting as if she's already a largely independent teenager. Saying that, she had a point about 'just call her'. So why didn't he? Answer: he's been so distracted by his sensing over the last however many years that his marriage weren't in as good health as maybe it should be, that he's been in stasis, meaning, he hasn't been keeping track of her true age and developing, thus forgot to remember she's not a tiny, mobile-phone-less girl any more. In short, he completely forgot that these days she carries a mobile. That or he just panicked and in his panic was thinking, "EEK, WHERE'S MY BABY!!!" (they don't call it 'blind panic' for nothing). Lastly but not leastly, there's this: "Its usually my brother but he's been ok." In other words, 'I (the place-less middle child) see a desk has just become vacant - I'm taking it!'...no doubt because she feels brother has just suddenly appropriated what previously was her desk. Make sense? So she too, now, needs to be given a well-defined, better role to assume in place of brother's old one (family rebel come troublemaker). What are her unique strengths? This game of musical chairs, however, is perfectly typical whenever other members in a pack start switching or swapping seats and the person concerned, this case your sister, can't think to create an entirely new place and role. It's just more noticeable during a catalystic event as (seemingly) huge as this one, that's all. 5. Re Tom trying to impress new boss: two for the price of one, meaning, engineering things to get to see you rather than the fam was a handy side-bonus of working Xmas. I.e. there's no 'looking like' about it - HE IS. He'll have to make it up to them, though... neither of you want his family starting to see you as a bad influence (inadvertent and innocent or not) in terms of turning his back on them and family traditions. Not saying that's a cert, just saying (yet again) prevention's better and easier than potential future cure. 6. Cousins/bit more insight: good! 7. Okay - ask away (if/when you need to). I'm pretty un-embarrass-able. For now... Holly Schmolly. We already know she's a bit of a sensationalist/dramatist and why (- currently needing to attention-seek), right? It won't hurt if you're comfortable and relaxed. And even if you weren't, 'hurt' is a bit of an over-exaggeration. Uncomfortable, maybe, if that. And then only fleetingly. But Tom's crystal-clearly very sensitive, patient, tentative *AND (ref (amongst other too-copious evidences) his proffering of that App solution) INSTANTLY RESPONSIVE* so I wouldn't have thought you had a thing to worry about on that score...One little 'ow!' or 'ooch!' or even 'oo-er' and he'd be straight out again and either stopping play altogether or waiting perfectly sweetly and reassuringly until you felt ready for a re-try; I think we both know you could be 100% sure of that. Put it this way, if I literally were you, it being *my* first time, *I'd* want it to be with Diamond Tom as well. But that's where the lube comes in because - diamond or not, it's still a completely new and (because of that) mentally daunting step to take...you can't help natural, normal anxiousness. And even mere trepidation can 'block the oil can'. But it may not. More than anything it's just about feeling at total relaxed liberty to 'jump out of the plane' because you've not just got the one parachute, but two, three, four....and a great big bouncy castle ready on the landing spot. IF, however, despite all the 'safety gear' you still feel to reticent, then, DON'T. Wait and try again some other time. But I'm betting it'll be a case of, 'Cuh!...what was all the fuss about, didn't even need the ONE silly parachute!'. 8. "but she hasn't even asked me how serious we are." Do I take it that means your dad has? 9. Did Plan Romance Film happen in the end? What did you watch?

Why you're absolutely right Soulmate! Started back in April 2015 wow! But this ones not over yet. :-)

Nope. The Scroll To Bottom button hasn't even kicked in yet, look. Did you want to contribute or join in, by the way, or were you just being a gentleman and keeping Lily reassured and entertained while she was having to wait for ol' slowcoach here?

All of the above Soulmate I just want to be kind.

Hey, Good news is leaving my dad to work out how to be romantic again on his own has worked. Since the 1st Dec, he's been sending my mum things everyday but he's been more thoughtful about it, like really sentimeantal things and a card . I think he plans to do this till xmas but it's also her birthday on subday and I think he's made plans to take her out on Saturday. My mum is being quite emotionless about it all though, and has left her presents lying around, just not interested. he Got some flowers delivered and she didn't do anything with them, until I did. He's been coming round too, she just says hi but then doesn't bother to interact with him or doesn't mention her present until he does. Quite rude actually and shes the one who's got hot manners. Is she playing hard to get ? Tom seems to think it could be too overwhelming for her to get something each day when it hasn't happened for a long time. But Not all of them are exactly expensive it's a range of things and I think she would tell him to stop if it really got to her. Another thing is the house isn't up for sale anymore, which I was really pleased with but it's seemed to of given my mum more of a push to look for a house for herself/us. I really don't like that fact she's still looking to move and not wanting or thinking of staying even though my dad has told her loads of times he doesn't want her to go anywhere. I think it's deffinately all catching up with me and it's all coming out now. I'm not always good with change. The panick attacks literally come out of no where ...but will look into what you surggested too though, thanks! The mindfulness app is also quite good during them. My brother has told both my parents he wants counselling, 'coz you are both f***ing me up' were his words to both of them lol, at least he says it like it is :^) . My dad had a go at him for swearing but my mum was like 'noooo don't say that!'. Was a bit surprised he said that, my mum and dad have tried to get to get him to go before but he refused or he didn't interact when they dragged him to see someone. So they have asked all three of us, sister has said yes too, I'm thinking about it. But I also think they need to do something for themselves too, they said would do something and they haven't. Really annoying. That does make a lot of sense with my sister and yes she did have a point with just call her, just how she said it that made my dad react. She also has two mobiles that she doesn't even know what to do with! She didn't want to do anything that weekend and just wanted to stay in bed. She's quite out going and high in energy but sometimes she just wants her own space and doesn't like people telling her what to do! But my dad wouldn't let her stay home alone, which started off her sulking, then when we had lunch refused to eat anything and plugged her ear phones in and listened to music, buried her head in her arms and cried :-/ and then disappeared was a bit worried and my dad deffinately panicked. But both my mum and dad still treat her like she's still little and I think she's starting to find it frustrating. When I asked her what was up that weekend apparently her 'leg was hurting', it might not of been an excuse but she didn't complain at the time, dunno if she meant something else was hurting or I was meant to guess, who knows. Figure that one out! Unique strengths, she's free spirited and very creative, really good at art and making things, likes knitting, and has her own sowing machine, and teaches herself or youtubes, how to make things. she's hand made all xmas cards this year to send to family and her friends (tom even got one) but she personalises them - bit of a protectionist too like me and won't give out anything that she thinks is crap. All really consuming stuff that I would normally give up on in five minutes. It sounds like I'm talking about an older relative. She also into normal preteen stuff :-/. I think Tom does owe it to his parents somehow, his mum is still really disappointed with his decision, think they've had a few more discussions about it. I have told him he can change his mind, I don't mind going by train to Cornwall, he knows by now I will just sit and read for however long it takes. At first he was quite deffensive and said they never ask him what he wants to do at xmas, they expect things of him and he's always done what they want. Now I think he's feeling a bit guilty but he's too stubborn do change anything. When I have seen his mum she's been really nice, she very discreetly said to me that her parents got divorced, she was older then me and she's there if I want to talk :). We had a movie afternoon my dad was working in the eve. This was after I made him go out and get a xmas tree and decorate because he said he wasn't going to bother with a tree. Whaaaat! We and watched 'if I stay', a romcom/family drama, maybe a bit too chick flicky/ teenager-ish for him but was quite a message behind it but was also a bit depressing and then he didn't want to watch pretty women and he choose 'stepmom' because he likes Julia Roberts as an actress, fancies her more like, and it was also a bit depressing! I think my dad does think tom and I are getting serious and no doubt thinks we're sleeping together. He really likes him, and keeps telling me he's good for me. he's Would be as nice to tom if he didn't like him and he very relaxed around him, more so now because tom came round before he went to work on sat eve and cooked and it was yuuum. And was he was cool with him staying over, but he was embarrassing when he said 'don't bounce on the bed too much it's a bit broken' urgh, shut up! Don't think he quite meant for it to sounded like it did or be weird. He sees us more together then my mum does she's quite nervous with tom dunno why, not exactly intimidating. I'm beginning to think me and my mum need to talk more I want her to ask me things but she hasn't. I'm beginning to think Holly enjoys trying to scare me, she made it like it was going to be really painful and be bloody but yeah she can be quite dramatic. Don't think I'm not going to listen to her as much! She's got a new bf now and this Friday, we're going out, and now suddenly it's totally fine and bfs that are invited. Meg is putting up a really big fight though and thinks it should just stay with the four of us and that how it should stay, I agree with her and that feels really weird coz I don't normally, but Is it was fun last time, so could all change by Friday. Bye

(Thanks, Scopes! :-) I don't have any objection to your contributing if Lily's happy with it?) ******** 1. Re. Provider-Nurturer (and willingness) displays: Excellent! Let's see whether and how quickly he can 'kill her with kindness'. 2. Er... If I Stay isn't a comedy in the slightest and is about Acceptance/being philosophical. And Stepmom is basically in the same vein. Hmm... not sure I like those choices and what they might be saying?...especially since the fact is, Julia was in Pretty Woman as well, so... You were there - what do you think? 3. I think mum's behaviour indicates a sense of righteous victimisation, despite (actions!) she's meanwhile allowing dad to basically breeze in at will. If those seeming contradictions together don't say, I WANT SOME REALLY *BIG* GESTURE, NOT PIDDLY LITTLE GIFTS! - because he's the one who's wronged her, not the other way round - then I don't know what does, do you? And I'd have thought, with WRONGED being the case, diamonds *and* meant promises of re-negotiations were in order. Again - wouldn't you? Not that he CAN'T 'kill' her with lots of little peltings but a very grand gesture would obviously fast-track the progress on that score, I'd have thought. I mean, let's be honest - what woman would be capable of turning her nose up at a 24-carat necklace or set of earrings or Dearest ring or something else equally impactful plus deeply personal (according to whatever usually tends to wow your mum)? In short, I'm starting to wonder (only a theory at this point, though) whether dad perhaps cheated or possibly even (overdue argument excuse fodder) just let some woman try to overstep the mark and failed to deal befittingly with it, whereby it insulted and wounded the heck out of your mum...who's now, given what you describe, SULKING yet - note! - simultaneously willing to keep giving him the stage, so to speak, and - equally note! - *not* actually dumping these gifts in the bin (funny, that). Look at it this way: if your dad felt HE were the wronged party - or even EQUALLY the victim - surely he's be unable to bring himself to start showering her with love tokens, surely each act would stick in his craw, especially when Just Been Made Vulnerable isn't usually willing to make himself ten times *more* vulnerable by putting himself in the firing-line for more rejection (the risk of her throwing them back in his face)? Your mum's behaviour isn't 'emotionless' if she's meantime letting him buzz around her, is it. It's more petulance aka sending to Coventry but where he has to BE THERE in order for any such snubbing and hoity sniffing to get registered (think about it). So - ACTIONS! Maybe he DID in some insulting way entertain the advances of that locum nurse?? Or even fail to cut her back down to size and put her back in her cheeky box? Maybe that's what had the woman feeling so at liberty to act over-familiar even in front of you as well as hang around uninvited that time you described? What do you think? Do you agree that mum's the only one showing quiet fury and resentment while he's busy pelting her with mini Sorrys and/or I Didn't Mean Its? Alternatively, yes, I suppose equally it could be a case of her 'saying' Too Little, Too Late and/or Do You Call This Fixing? Question: These birthday plans - does she know about them and has already accepted or is he planning on surprising her with them? Well, anyway, no, I don't think she intends on telling him to stop. I think the message is, 'Hmph...nothing to write home about - but I'll keep making it possible for you keep trying harder!'. 4. WHY isn't the house on the market any more? Did your dad take it off? If so (uh-oh), I can imagine your mum's apparent endeavour to find her own new home is more a message to say he can't stop her doing whatever she wants or decides because he's not the boss of her, and nor can he get her back by any such kind of, to all intents and purposes, brute force. 5. Glad the App's working! (Care to tell the community at large what it's called in case anyone else could do with it?) 6. So are you confessing that you're holding your own counselling opportunity to ransom so that and until your mum and dad will agree to couples counselling? Is that because you deep down know you can afford to, i.e. sense you don't really need it with Tom and myself (and now Scopes) constantly on-hand? PS: I shouldn't find how brother put it funny, but I do! Interesting how your dad basically said 'cease immediately/don't even go there!' and your mum said 'OMG, the guilt!', isn't it. Those two pieces go on the evidence table for sure, as does the gift showering and her allowing him to 'pop in'. 7. "apparently her 'leg was hurting'". Code for, don't want to discuss it. Also, methinks whatever music she was listening to at the time contained some or other deep 'n meaningful, altogether pertinent-sounding lyrics that set her off (hence her feeling stupidly sentimental in retrospect thus not wanting to admit it to big sis, someone she obviously wants to impress). Did you try again later or leave it at her knowing she could talk about it if/when ready? "It sounds like I'm talking about an older relative." Sounds like you're talking about your auntie in miniature, actually - wouldn't you say? 8. Poor Tom's mum, yeesh! Has he been reading a manual, called, How Best To Make Mums Cry? I mean, couldn't he have found something less major and upsetting to "assert his authoritah" over, than Christmas of all things? Is he intending on finding some way to compensate her? That would be the sensible, clever thing to do, wouldn't it? Especially if he didn't want you coming away thinking, even subconsciously, that what he's basically done is show you how manly-powerful he can be when it comes to mistreating his own mother?? Is he even aware of that resultant, subliminal impression? (And had it crossed your mind yet?) Well, anyway, let's see. If he's feeling guilty then it might just take him a while to put something back to resurrect the smile on her face. If he doesn't, however, I suggest you buy her a souvenir/gift while you're down there (and make him pay half ;-)). At least then she'd know the pair of you were thinking about her/considering her feelings and did feel bad about it. 9. Wasn't going to bother with a tree, eh? No point? No point to anything like that any more- "whaaah!"? Or was it just said for effect, as in, yet another under-the-table 'HEELP MEEE, LILLYYYYY!' tactic, i.e. him wanting a pep-talk? 10. Crikey, what did Tom cook? 11. "when he said 'don't bounce on the bed too much it's a bit broken'" He didn't! :-D Well, "touche!" if he did cos, trust me, it's even weirder when your baby goes from nappies to sexual intercourse with serious lover! You got the LONG end of the straw, missus! LOL, shame you didn't think to say, 'We don't do 'bouncing'. We float', isn't it. (Damn! You'll have to find another opportunity, LOL) 12. "I'm beginning to think me and my mum need to talk more" Agree. What about, 'Mum, we need to talk'? This is your MUM, yes? 13. Trust me, Holly isn't enjoying anything about this. She obviously can't stop herself wanting you and Tom's relationship not to keep going so smoothly, so what better way than have you so nervous about s*x that you keep putting Tom off, whereby the resultant frustration from both your ends [- scuse pun] leaks into your interactions and possibly causes bickers? That way you won't (or won't so soon) get to the point where you 'leave her' in favour of Tom, Tom and more Tom, will you. I seriously doubt she even realises she's doing it, though (she's too young and battered to have that level of self-awareness). So I'd have thought your best bet were to (as I said to an empty room previously (;-p)) NOT GIVE HER ANYTHING VALUABLE to affect or influence in the first place. Ask me or, better yet, ask Tom. He IS your teammate, after all, correct? (I'll be back-up. :-)) Doesn't matter if he doesn't know or can't provide the answers, so much as you having managed to communicate, in a nice, passively ladylike way, your specific worries, fears and trepidations...so that he can ensure to be prepared to respond to them the right and sensitive way on the night. Oh, and don't worry if it exposes you as ignorant. Frankly, that would make his year! "She's got a new bf now and this Friday" Ah. So there was also a bit of trying to slow you two down a little in there. The cosy couples race is on, then [rolls eyes]. "Meg is putting up a really big fight though and thinks it should just stay with the four of us and that how it should stay" Meg too, now? Good GRIEF! You know what your problem is, don't you, Lily? You're just too damned gorgeous to the point of everyone fighting over you and wanting a piece of you! ************ Sell! (ha-ha :-D)

Lol I most certainly don't want to kill her with kindness Soulmate or is it possible? However I'm glad to hear good news at the beginning of her reply

:-D

(Never heard of the phrase, to kill someone with kindness? It basically means to spoil someone rotten.) Actually, Lily, strike that bit about 'might have cheated'. My jello doesn't like it AT all, can't make it fit. Aspergics (Grade A limpets) in committed relationships tend not to even flirt, let alone cheat, and mostly aren't even aware when someone's trying to flirt with them or overstep the mark - as you witnessed for yourself at the surgery. Another reason they don't cheat/lilypad-leap is because they have no problems being in their own company, being largely solitary animals, thus next to no fear of finding themselves single and solitary. Plus they tend to be over-responsible control-freaks, with under-active egos in terms of pride...so that would explain how your dad would be managing to be pelting her with love tokens - *choosing to believe* he must be at fault somehow thus at full liberty to take control with trying to mend and make up. Telling you not to bounce too much on the semi-broken bed also strongly indicates the typical AS situation of practical concerns completely blocking out all awareness of overstepping a boundary, embarrassing you and Tom by being over-personal (i.e. practical over emotional). But what I *can* still picture and make fit, is your dad seemingly having let some woman make advances, unimpeded, and - whether she witnessed it for herself or gleaned it from his conversation that fateful afternoon - your mum thinking it were a passive or passive-aggressive form of encouragement, reacting badly, and (cue overdue need to argue) the disagreement escalating and getting out of all proportion from there. But we don't have any evidence for that, bar her apparent sense of quietly 'mortified' self-righteousness. So what does still stand is her consistently demonstrating a clear belief that he's the one in the wrong who's upset *her*, without our being able to work out in what regard. If I haven't detected at least *something* by now then that might mean, because the reason behind it all is so ridiculously tenuous. Question: You mum cut her hours, you said. Could it be she found out that afternoon that your dad was set to increase his and took it as definitive proof of his not wanting to get back into the love boat with her, now that you kids are lower maintenance, as opposed to his thinking great provider on its own equalling blanket proof of romantic love? Plus there's auntie: if her sister had cheated or been actually cheated on, she wouldn't even need to be confided in, she'd sense it, regardless, and ('knowing' her) push and push until she got a confession...and yet she unwaveringly insists it's something about nothing and the pair of them just being complete prats. So I trust her opinion and am back on the bench with her, concluding that you and I find the thought that there must somehow/somewhere be a more definite reason for the split too compelling when - no, there isn't. Another thing: You imagine being your mum's supposed new boyfriend, managing to pick up (as you do) on the fact that the supposed ex2b is being allowed to come and go like that and, not least, seeing love tokens of his strewn everywhere? COME ON - no male love interest would put up and shut up about that, would they! But they would if they were JUST A PLATONIC FRIEND. No boyfriend. Load of ollocks. What about the so-called girlfriend, seen or sensed any further signs of her? You've have said so, surely? And she, as equally as the new bloke, would be bound to pick up on his 'woo her back' campaign. In which case - no and ditto. Sorry if I alarmed you, but at least by daring to 'try it on for size' we can feel that much more confident at expelling it from the evidence table.

Yeah, that's cool if Scopes wants to join in :). I should have put, that I knew those film choices were bad ones, didn't choose the second one that was my dads choice, will try again some other time. Ok scrapping the dad cheating idea! It didn't panick me, I don't think that locum nurse even works there anymore and at the time I was more worried about her then my dad. Agree don't think any new gf or bf would be happy with an ex sending gifts, I wouldn't! Yeah, I think you're right about my aunt she would of sensed something and she would gone mad at my dad if he had cheated when she came to stay, she already knows how to put him in his place. She's gonna be very disappointed when she comes back at Christmas. Deffinately would of said if I had seen these 'two friends' or what ever they are to them. I have a feeling my mums friend is just an old teacher friend from her old school and thats it. She really was angry with my brother when he sent that message on fb I think if he was a bf she may of reacted differently? I don't know where my dad 'friend' has come from. Most of my mum and dads friends, were my mum friends in the first place. Don't know if they see them when me and the sibs aren't around. My mum moved schools and it was a bit of a job change because she now teaches older kids, she gets home earlier because the school is a lot closer to home. My dad does do a of out of hours so could be something be something like that. Um, my mum did know about the birthday plans, doesn't like surprises, but she told my dad she doesn't want to go out with him and has told him the best present he can give her is to let me and the sibs be with her this weekend (ouch). so that's what he's done, dunno what he had planned but think he's a bit hurt, he's gone quiet now or he's thinking about what to do next! I choose to stay out of this, and not react to her decision or persuade her to go, it's her birthday. I'm actually looking forward to spending the weekend with her. The house wasn't getting any viewings and I think my dad did get it taken off the market because he wants to move back in. My mum has said he'll just have to wait till she ready, he's the one who moved out. Oh yeah! My sister is a miniature version of my aunt they both like their options to be heard and they look scarily similar too. No I didn't ask her again, she knows where I am. The app is called Headspace - meditation and mindfulness. My brothers tone of voice was quite bitter when he said that something my dad failed to pick up on! At the moment I don't think I need counselling, I get everything out on here, it's a bit like an online diary :D. Not too sure if I can be bothered to go through it with someone else otherwise I'd be thinking about this allllll the time and I don't think I'm going to get any better answers. I try to distract myself. I more want my mum and dad to sort themselves out and do what they said they were going to do couple counselling or something. I did really like the idea of seeing tom in the evening on Christmas Day but I really don't like the fact that his mum is upset about it or that he's kinda being a bit of an a*se,< don't like putting that, but I don't want him to show me how being powerful or manly he can be, just want him to be himself and to be nice to his mum. She has obviously said something to the family because his oldest brother has also tried to talk him about this and was trying to get him to go. Dunno if it needs to come from me (?) but he might get a bit p**sed off, if everyone is on his case. He WILL be compensating her in some way, I will be making sure of that! Like the idea of buy her something when we are there, although his mum had warned me to never, ever, ever, take him anywhere near any shops, unless is food involved because he's the moodiest shopper ever - interesting, a side I haven't seen yet...but like I'm going to put up with that! Tom cooked fajitas, which is basic for him, but he did it with king prawns in bread crumbs and made the salsa. Yes my dad did say that! I'm still cringing about it, he was doing quite well till he said that :-I. I'm not very good at thinking up come backs on the spot, I just said 'what did you just say?!' Idiot, he didn't repeat. Ok, won't give Holly any more information or little! It's ok if she ask me something about me and tom but if I say anything she still kinda glazes over a bit, so I had kinda stopped anyway. * You know what your problem is, don't you, Lily? You're just too damned gorgeous to the point of everyone fighting over you and wanting a piece of you! --lol, nah uh! Didn't see it like that. Megs was more like what am I supposed to do whilst your snuggled up with your bfs and Holly's answer was go pull a guy? Easy for her to say. Holly got her way last night and her new bf did come but he ended up dumping her, he seemed really quiet and a bit uncomfortable so things ended pretty early! I think she was a bit too much for him, he came across a bit quiet or he was uncomfortable. Have checked up on Holly today but she's not replied yet :-/.

Be with you tomorrow, Lils.

OK :)

I've read and noted everything, comments as follows: 1. Oh, I didn't grasp that it was one film each, sorry. Yes, next time. But definitely make it Pretty Woman - if you or your dad can stand it? I think you will. Because, even though it's romantically a bit OTT and realistic, demanding a level of suspension of credibility in places, you can't help but get completely sucked in to where you're cheering on both lead characters equally (not least due to their having a common enemy in the form of Edward's misandristic, so-called best friend, Stuckey). So it should work to inspire your dad significantly where concerns making the grander and suaver gestures, despite containing your own input to within-reason, harmless (yet powerfully effective), subtle influencing level rather than actual meddling. After all, even in situation normal, parents are *supposed* to learn from their own kids as well as the fact of having kids, n'est pas...making this an overall win/win tactic for everyone concerned. 2. Loco Locum nurse - noted. 3. "Agree don't think any new gf or bf would be happy with an ex sending gifts, I wouldn't!" Exactly! So even if they *do* have "special friends" (yuh, right) then they clearly can't value their feelings or the relationship a jot. Relationships doomed from the start if they exist and doomed if they don't (if you see what I mean). 4. Yes, she'd definitely have reacted differently if the guy were genuinely a boyfriend...because it would have been only to be expected/par for the course and perfectly understandable, meaning would have been more okay about it in that context. But not if as far as HE knew, he were just a friend...think of the embarrassment (if you were similarly a stickler for etiquette) of having to explain why her son had acted that way (cringe) so as not to give the guy ideas (cringe-cringe). 5. Re your mum having gone to the enormous trouble of engineering shorter days and less pressure: maybe they'd both long agreed to start winding down the careers a little by X Year (highly common stuff) or even to secure situations where they could meet for (cough!) lunch at home (like they tried), in order to focus more on their relationship, which your mum adhered to, to the letter, but your dad ended up having to welch on (permanent staff being so low on the ground lately) as led to a fight and joint impasse? That would fit *too beautifully* with why he had been the one to have to pack his bags, would it not ("All you care about is your career, not us!...YOU *PROMISED*, you've been promising for *X* years now!...I've just jacked in my perfectly good job and accepted a lower salary for nothing!" etc., etc. / "I can't take this any more, if I'm not good enough for you I'LL GO!" / "Fine - do - see if I care!"...*slam* / "Whaaaah, I hate him, I hate him, I hate him!"). It also fits beautifully with why your dad feels guilty and responsible enough to try to be the mover-shaker even in the face of staunch frostiness. Major goals, such as that biggie, aligning is *mucho* importante and any veering from the script definitely cause for major rows and fissures. 6. She wants you and the kids at the weekend and as an extra/'birthday present'? Not her "new special friend" with all his exciting novelty factor?? GOSH, curiouser and curiouser, said Alice! ;-) 7. "I think my dad did get it taken off the market because he wants to move back in. My mum has said he'll just have to wait till she ready, he's the one who moved out." UNTIL SHE'S READY? And he was the one who moved out, "not me, so there!")? Ah-hah! Dad ran away from the argument because it was too much 'drama', making him emotionally flood and run (typical). Yet mum, in her own word-slippage, FORESEES A READINESS? INTERESTING! She's holding herself/their marriage to ransom "until" he finally agrees to deliver his side of the goods! (Can't really blame her, eh.) Houston, I think we have a case of Case Closed. :-) Think about if it were you and Tom, Lily. How on earth do you find a way to explain to little people or anyone outside of the day-to-day marriage, not privy to their ins-and-outs and all that had for years and years led up to it nor never experienced marriage before, let alone to their tenure of success (which would include Auntie!), *and* in a way that doesn't sound highly petty and immaterial to said uninitiated ears compared to the reality of the whole situation, and attract nothing but disapproving criticism instead of agreement and support (either way)? Enter mutually-agreed cover story. 8. Sister knowing where you are isn't the point. It's about knowing she CAN. And if her mind is stuck on Can't to the power of 10, you have to counter it with CAN to the power of 10 to remove that mental blockade. Or you could box clever and solicit brother's help in approaching her, give him a sense of importance and efficacy into the bargain (win/win)? He's closer in age to her yet (different gender) isn't the one she'd want to aspire to and impress/not look silly or childish in front of. But you could just put it as, 'She won't talk to me but I reckon she definitely would to you'. It would stop him feeling bitter (powerless). 9. It *is* an online diary. You wait until this has all come good again and you get to re-read your thread, hindsight being 20-20 vision and all that. 10. Tom's obviously, understandably for his age (boys lag behind girls in emotional maturity) got a sliver of childishness still in him, as in, 'I don't need parents, they can't tell me what to do any more!'. Well, nobody over the age of 22 or so ever says, 'I don't need parents' (even parents and grandparents "need their parents" at SOME point(zuh)) so - mission failure if appearing grown-up and independent is his aim. But - I agree you don't want to be on his case. So I think the simplest thing to do is to spot something when out "just quickly browsing" the local shops (on the way back from a country pub?) and say, 'Ooh, I reckon your mum would *LOVE* this!...and we do owe her a big Sorry, don't we' (note the Royal 'we'). 11. Don't CARE what *you* see yourself as, clearly, going by all the actions, everyone else begs to differ, so :-p. 12. Oh dear, poor Holly. Has she responded yet?

(Sorry - UNrealistic) (obvs)

Soulmate, really wanted to write this before but didn't want to confuse things. On Sunday, my mums said to me, she felt really bad about turning down my dads offer to take her out for her birthday. We went out on Saturday but Sunday we weren't doing much and I think she felt like maybe she could of gone out with him? After thinking about it for ages, she decided to go and see him, this was without any encouragement from me because I wanted her to make her own mind up. But I was quite pleased, trying not to get excited with her decision. But she came back within like an hour, really angry and all she said was (um, I'll leave the swear words out, she never swears but she was litterally shaking with anger) 'her car was in the driveway' and before I could ask 'who's car?' 'And 'who is her?', she was just like, I can't talk about it and walked away. I know she was too angry and upset to talk but I can't really cope with the one liners and then disappearing without her saying anything more. It's a bit like here's some nice little clues for you three to work out, have fun, bye!. My bro and sis were just looking at me as if to say 'what the hell is going on?'. I don't know if she even saw him/them, had a fight - she doesn't like confrontation but maybe she did. Or this person could of been there as a friend and my mum took it the wrong way but my mum isn't giving anything away at the moment, I can see she's still angry. I agree, it could be about work they argued about, when they split up and they both obviously must of turned to confine in someone. But How does that work with the above theories and my dad being possibly aspergic ? Hes not an idiot, well ...maybe emotionally, but he must see what's going on, if he's being lead on by someone/ a friend and wants it to stop, or he doesn't want it to? But Confused about the wanting to 'draw a line under everything' and wanting my mum to stay but there have been no more presents since she said she wouldn't go out with him. There is a Huge part of me that wants to go and confront him and I might still do just don't know what else I'll find out. But also want answers from my mum . not sleeping too worried, so I need to do something, any actions? :-/ :(

Relax, Lily, any panicking or worrying on your and your sibs part would be a complete and utter waste of energy. She's just deliberately winding herself up, that's all, again perfectly typical under this post-fight, stand-off circumstance, I'll explain the surprisingly simple reason why, later.

Surprisingly Simple answer, really? phew, Okay! :) feeling like a bit of an idiot now for worrying and losing sleep, but she really worried me with her dramatic-ness, which I don't like, not cool! zzzzzzz. Answering rest of the post. Is there any point in trying to watch Pretty Women with my dad now? Can't remember if I said above he didn't get why I wanted to watch it with him, it's fine for him to make embarrassing comments and be very open but won't watch 'that kind of film' with me :-I . Next time No choice. Yes, I can see the embarrassment my mum has to of gone through with this friend from her old school, not good! :-/ . Readyness and case closed I was hoping so! My sister does know she can come to me :) she has been in my room all the time so far this week, my brother comes and goes too, deff both feeling insecure. Apparently She doesn't want to be downstairs or in her room on her own. She doesn't really want to talk about what's going on, she just does her own thing or talks about other stuff. Think she just wants to know she can talk if she wants to. She then demands a hot chocolate when she wants to go to bed, think I'm gonna set up my own business and start charging, this is turning into a nightly thing! :-p. Like the idea of trying to get brother and sister to talk more, they may as well start to learn now for I go to uni. He might be very against the idea at first but I'll sell it to him the way you suggested. Noted the royal 'we' and country pub. Ah I can sometimes see a little bit of childness in Tom, there are worse at my school from boys and some girls. I also find that if say things to him a certain way it sometimes works and he does think about it or acts on it. Ive told him he actually doesn't HAVE to work on Christmas Day or new year, he seems to think since he's said yes that he does. Why not just start after new year he's only going to be working there once a week and in the school hols. Getting ready to book the train tickets and waiting for him to say he's going xmas coz I can tell he's thinking about it. He been really sweet, he brought me a watch as a surprise, had no idea, coz my old one litterally fell apart, and I haven't not worn one since I could like tell the time, ahh :-/. He's also thinks we go to my cousins birthday party this weekend *rolls eyes*, wasn't going to (my mum and the sibs aren't going) but he thinks it's a good opportunity to catch up with my aunt even though I'm seeing her towards the end of next week . I did want to take the sibs with us but he was like 'nooo, I have something planned afterwards, unless they stay the night at your aunts!' Right. The sibs might actually be up for this. Ooo Holly was in a baaaaaad mood on Monday, and yesterday, today and probably for the rest of the week! I kinda knew she would be but I was more distracted with the parents. I understand why coz he didn't do it in the most tactful way. shes also annoyed because Meg went out after she left and met up with other friends and that I went bk to toms. And also because she had only received one text message and one missed call from me, I tried! I also wasn't really in the mood to just take this from her and just shut her down pretty damn quick. She didn't want anyone to leave with her, I made sure by asking her a few times if she wanted me to come bk and stay over but she said no each time ...just thought, did she think it was a best friends job not to take no for an answer??? if so oops :-/. (Slightly awkward again) Meg wasn't about to tell her that she got a guys number when she went out :D, she's now worried when Holly does know this and I wasn't about to tell her that me and tom Erm (wouldn't normally put this but since we've talked about it :)) slept together and it didn't hurt that much ...at all really! So pleased you told me that. It just kinda happened. Four words: Stupid smile on face... (happy)

Good grief, I'm so sorry, Lily, this is the fifth time since last night I've tried to find enough time to sit down and respond and take you through the behind-scenes of what happened, but I've had so much to do I'm disappearing up my own spiral! The deck should become clear by tomorrow midday-ish, though. (PS: yes, there's still a point. Even more so, now. In other words, what you saw was a positive in disguise.)

Uh oh, don't disappear! :-p No worries, thanks for attempting to reply five times already :-) A positive in disguise ... as in she felt bad and went to see him? Doesn't want anything to do with him at the moment.

(Don't worry. With me, it's never a case of if and whether, just when.) Should have said, HUGE positive in-disguise, actually... This is such a common scenario, Lily - one estranged partner turning up unannounced (or some such) to find what they think is "the other wo/man" taking their place and doing THEIR job, and reacting like your mum did - that you'd think all these people everywhere got posted a script from the Post-Fight Separation Fairy the minute the front door goes 'slam!'. Seriously, if I had a pound every time, I'd be describing my personal, private, Caribbean island to you right now... When you're in this stand-off/poker ("s/he who cares least, wins") situation, due to you and your spouse disagreeing over something 'major', neither of you willing or daring to back down, you feel you have to stay away from them in order not to lose your resolve, and to make them believe and sample what losing you for-good feels like ("do it or the puppy gets it!"). One cuddle or kiss and you might find yourself folding. Your resolve is kept strong by anger on two levels - your sense of injustice and, obviously, the emotional hurt of not being understood, not being catered to/the other person not wanting simply to do whatever it takes to make you smile ("you don't love me, if you loved me you'd X!"), etc.. When your dad offered to take your mum out somewhere nice on her birthday, he showed he was missing her badly and still felt she were 'his' thus so, jointly, were her 'important experiences'. Unfortunately, she hadn't calmed down as much as him (and obviously owed him a snub) so she automatically turned him down flat *and* ensured to include the dig of seemingly preferring to spend the day playing Mum. She 'said', I do not miss you, so there. It would have hurt his feelings A LOT. What was your dad supposed to do - sit twiddling his thumbs all on his tod that weekend? But the 'damage' was done...he'd issued the invite, it had all that time slowly but surely started working on her to make her miss him, *and* make her believe that he were ready to sit at the re-negotiations table. It's easy to imagine your mum containing a side of herself that was angry and disgusted at her for melting so easily as she drove over to his place, and being 'so disgustingly, shamefully' helpless to resist. Plus, all this time she'll have been suspecting that his own "special friend" perhaps might be more than just a mate. But the not knowing would have been killing her, hence, found herself unable to stay resisting. Remember how when you didn't have a clue but badly needed to know where you stood? As I say, that's the real killer, out of everything. So even a bad read-out (as includes any seeming explanation for previously uncharacteristic or hard-to-understand behaviour) is preferable to no read-out or holding out and biding your time for a positive one. This is what your mum THINKS she got, just because she saw the woman's car. Plus, she'll have already been mistrustful of and bitter at him, meaning, all too ready to assume only the worst from him. Needing to slap her own face anyway for having found herself folding instead of remaining capable of staying angry enough to hold out for longer (because unless she's angry, dad manages to twist or charm her arm), there was her solution. (No, the timing, when you subtract the driving and fuming time, doesn't allow for a confrontation with anyone, it allows only for her having tried to tip-toe around the house to find a window to spy on them from, or from sat in her car if the environ/situation allowed it, or just having driven away and parked somewhere to try to work out what was actually going on (*fail*).) Anyway, only a rare few would have the chutzpah for confronting in that situation, but your mum's a soft touch type, sucker for guilt, sucker for soft-soaping ("everything alright?, I'm not being a neglectful mum, am I?, do you need me or need to talk to me about anything?, pant-pant-whittle-whittle-guilt-trip-guilt-trip?"). She NEEDS anger. Without it, when she loves someone, she'd find herself doing whatever THEY wanted or demanded, out of a need to please and make or keep happy. Note, however... It was not his car at this woman's house, it was her car at HIS - ACTIONS! He was free that day, probably all weekend (married men of his age and type don't tend to have close friends of the sort they can summon at short notice or lean on or be miserable in the company of). Why wasn't he the one to have rung her and driven to hers (- if you're the one askin' then you're the one does the dancin') if he supposedly was so keen or needful of company and a shoulder? Actions! [a] "Fancy a day out?" / "Nah...not in the mood [black cloud]" / "Oh, come on, it'll make you feel better, keep you from thinking about everything for five minutes" / "Nah..." / "Well, alright, how's about I come to you" / "Meh...alright then". [b] 'B*tch! (sob)...Cow! (sob)...I'll get her, I'll teach *her* a lesson she'll never forget!' - he rings to summon his friend, hoping to "treat your mum mean to make her keen(er)" on the off-chance - no matter slim - that your mum might drive by, see the car, and, yes, confront (any contact with her is better than no contact...she'd basically *have to* talk to him), *and* feel like she were more in danger of losing him to A. N. Other than the other way around ('don't know waht you've got til it's gone/going'). (The amount of grown men I've had pacing up and down in front of me, going, 'What does it mean that she said this and why if, why not, where/what/when/who, what shall I do, shall I X or should I Y or-or, WHAAAAAAAAAH!....?!?! If they feel they're with someone 'safe' enough to show this 'embarrassing' side of themselves, THEY ARE WORSE THAN WOMEN! Trust me on that.) [c] Nobody rang anybody, the woman either just decided unilaterally to stop in on him or literally were just passing, saw he was in/saw his car and thought she'd knock for a cuppa (she's in the same or similar boat, possibly? Probably). I can't see B being your dad. If he were that way inclined, capable of being even remotely as petty-minded as B, he'd not have had the face to have offered to take your mum out on her birthday, think about it. So it's something like A or C. So angry with him was she, and so needing to make her subconsciously deliberate, secret agenda-satisfying assumption true, that in that unthinking-unblinking mood in just that moment, she gave you kids JUST ENOUGH information to make you hate him too, to help her to hate and keep hating him (so that he ends up the one having to fold and sacrifice his standpoint). It's called, summoning the troops. But it was obviously half-hearted because, look how vague and minimalist she ended up being. She dangled the carrot...you were supposed to follow her and winkle it out of her. She's 'saying' HELP, I CAN'T DO THIS ON MY OWN. Your mum is obviously a 'What's wrong?' / '[sniff] Nothing?!' / 'No, clearly there is - tell me!' / 'Well if YOU don't know then I'M not going to tell you?!' merchant. I.e. under-assertive and lacking self-confidence. His invitation was just that bit too soon for her, she isn't capable of going from anger, resentment, bitterness and hatred back to clinking glasses and smiling loving smiles over a restaurant table (so to speak). He should have given her a good two weeks' notice *or* (Pretty Woman's Edward), not taken No for his first answer). That he didn't shows he was just as hurt as her thus lacking the confidence, strength and basically b*lls to persuade round. But all you have to pay any attention to are these facts: - Your dad PATENTLY OBVIOUSLY badly misses his lover, this always made worse whenever any kind of anniversary looms, and obviously wanted an opportunity to try to get back into the Love Boat with her (as well as to see if she were ready to see his POV). - Your mum PATENTLY OBVIOUSLY badly misses her lover,...(ditto). This "I love you / No, wait - I love you not (ya basstd)" rollercoastering out of synch is completely and utterly typical. They need a COUNSELLOR! ...to get their minds onto the exact same page and stop this all-too-typical 'weathervane couple'-ing (where dad's momentarily sunny while mum's rainy and then (due to it) dad rainy when mum's regained momentary sunniness....and repeat, repeat, repeat). Otherwise, as you see, she's apt to turn HIM rainy, and vice versa, meaning, progress back to joint, in-synch sunniness will take longer. I know WHY neither of them can face the thought of being sat in front of an expert. Your dad's a GP, people need HIM, the expert, not the other way round. Your mum's a teacher, people need HER (etc.). Both have too much arrogance and false pride to put themselves into the Needy & Vulnerable - *Non-Expert* - position. Now you appreciate why kids all over the world are always busy, desperately trying to manipulate and meddle in their parents' estrangement, telling one parent one thing and the other another or getting into trouble so that they parents have to unite, etc., etc. They've not lived long enough to have had their visions fogged up at the hands of other people-based experiences and people-based rules, No-nos, fallacies, etc. yet perfectly clever enough to see through the detritus to the oh-so-simple remedy. In fact, un-bogged-down kids see straighter than adults. But, after all this mutual starvation and alienation, you imagine the size of the make-up cuddles (cough!) etc. Their glue-based, elastic umbilicus (chemistry and attachment to-date) is getting stretched, thus tested out, majorly. If their chemistry is strong enough - i.e. if the Love Heroin powerful and addictive enough - no amount of stretching will snap it and sooner or later the tension will have it flinging them back together again (and *already* we can see how BAD at staying away from one another they are). Plus, it doesn't matter if THEIR RELATIONSHIP dies. Because there is nothing in the world to stop them from starting a new & improved one (*they* are not the relationship, their collective interactional experiences are). Indeed, sometimes you NEED to starve and be starved of Love Food. Because then you cease being petty about things like refusing to eat the bread just because it doesn't have unsalted rather than salted butter on it. By then, all that matters is getting bread down your neck, and quick. They're neither eating each other enough nor abstaining from nibbling enough. They don't DARE not have ongoing contact by making this a No or Zero Contact separation (in case the other meanwhile starts to get over them), despite NC or ZC would avoid these extra, messy, emotional sheets from constantly burying the genuinely important sheets further and further down the in-tray pile. In actual fact, here's what happens with types like your dad in his (demonstrated) mindset if they even TRY to have any sort of interaction of a romantic nature with another woman, whether he makes a move on her or (more likely) she on him: She doesn't look like her, feel like her, smell like her, sound or move like her, she's not the same build or height so feels wrong when trying to hug,...her hair's all wrong (feels too fine and strange under the hand), she doesn't snog remotely like her, etc., etc., etc..... All it achieves is to turn you RIGHT off and make you miss your lover EVEN WORSE THAN BEFORE, meaning, you can no longer tolerate having the poor substitute, she who carries a neon sign above her head that reads, "I'M NOT HER!", around. And this is why males in separation stage are notorious for the SEEMING 'wham, bam, thank-you ma'am!' treatment. (He *was* into you - or thought he was - but then got undeniable, un-ignorable confirmation that you're NOT HER, NOT EVEN REMOTELY SIMILAR ENOUGH - "bleugh, get away from me, don't even try to talk to me any more, PLEASE!".) ******* Your mum misses your dad and is VERY hungry for normal cuddles and contact with him as much as he, her, but, (climate of paranoia) THINKING she's secretly the only one AND still being too primed to paint him the devil and expect yet more upsetting/insulting acts, has LEAPT on the great excuse to REFUSE TO FOLD YET. Even if that woman had rung or surprised him by just turning up - *anything* - even some woman going yadder-yadder-yadder at him - would have been preferable to being forced to sit around and dwell on how miserable and disappointed mum had just made him by refusing to honour or confirm his status in her heart by wanting only him on her birthday weekend, by not being seen to be INCAPABLE of not wanting to be with him and only him on her birthday of all days. Your mum is definitely the one who's been more angry at your dad than vice-versa. Maybe on that afternoon she'd been the one to say GET OUT!, expecting him not to believe she genuinely meant it and/or to fight it/refuse to go, but he, now emotionally flooded by the "drama", leapt gratefully onto the excuse to run away from the argument (making things worse) and possibly wanted to hold himself to ransom, believing it'd work on normally Soft-Touch Her. And now your mum - KNOWING she's the type too easily folds every time - is the one who's leapt gratefully to the wrong conclusion in order to fashion for herself a Poker Face aid. But, like I said, counsellor no counsellor (we didn't always have counsellors, remember, yet strangely didn't die out as a specie because of it ;-)...and counsellors can only speed up the train bound for whatever terminus is inevitable and always was, anyway) - if their glue-based elastic is strong enough, it matters not WHAT they do, WHAT they say, WHEN they say/do it or fail to, WHAT they think or don't think or imagine or feel (they feel), i.e. this secretly just relationship-re-testing process (or in their case, the first-ever test). They'll find themselves being richochet-ed back together anyway whether they bloody like it or not. He couldn't abide not getting to spend her birthday with her, she couldn't abide not spending her birthday with him. They BOTH fell pathetically - PATHETICALLY! - at the very first, not even sizeable, hurdle, they are BOTH just as weak as the other when it comes to, in the face of the one they absolutely adore the very bones of - CASE CLOSED! It's a 'teenage' fight that got shelved but now insists on finally being had. AND THAT'S ALL. Now it's just a case of wondering *When* - not If - repeat, WHEN they finally make up and get back together. FYI, Mr S and I both "broke up" in our fourth year of marriage (he flounced back to France). PFF, broke-up my a*se. Why not? BECAUSE THE CHEMICAL UMBILICUS WAS JUST TOO STRONG FOR US AND OUR STUPID CONSCIOUS NEEDS/WANTS/IDEAS, our inner animals didn't give a SHITE for what WE thought we thought, they had their own ideas... and what they say - in their own, exclusive arena and business in which they are head honchos - goes. So we had no choice but to get back together in order to continue jacking-up (thank eff), meaning, someone was BOUND to crack at some point ("gear, gear, need my precious gear!!!"). Just so happens that Mr S has less patience and tenacity/stubbornness than me (not least because in this case he was too obviously the one in the wrong)...just different timings. But, really, the fight was about EFF ALL! If your inner animals are besotted with each other then you're going along for the ride whether you bloody like it or not, BER-BOM! So you may as well Like and try to always make Like smoothly do-able. :-) But for now, people in this situation - ALL people, I should add - are thick as pig sh*t by whatever varying degrees, as good at just being calmly open, honest and forthright as two chimpanzees with live fireworks up their a*ses ready to go off and fingers over the nuclear buttons (albeit not usually stupid enough to actually press them), meaning, having to patiently wait until they 'UN-thick' again. And your dad is male-typically lacking in patience. There again, birthdays don't tend to cater to personal, petty schedules, do they. ******** Anyway, back to you. By having divulged that angry information your mother has given you the right AND the Green Light (without having to lose face by asking you, her own daughter over whom she *should* be at all times 'superior' to, nicely and beseechingly) to schedule a serious sit-down talk with her, just you and she, wherein you say, 'ENOUGH, mother! I'm not stupid, I'm these days a young WOMAN [you are] in a serious relationship-with-mileage of my own [which proves it], in case you hadn't noticed. Tell me EVERYTHING that's going on between you and dad and let's see if two heads are better than one ("duh?") when it comes to finding any number of solutions, OR just tell me out of recognition of the fact you've now made it impossible to claim I don't have the right to know what's what. I GET that you and dad are more upset with one another than you've ever been in your lives, but that doesn't give you the license to take me, blister and bother down WITH you'. Just don't take No for an answer, Lily. Get bossy and motherly, REALLY slam your foot down. That's what she wants (albeit she'll do a bloody good of pretending not for the first however many minutes or hours). That, after all, what she was under-the-tale 'asking' for when she ranted and *highly uncharacteristically* (clue!) expleted in front of you. (I'll address your other, separate news in a separate post - let's try to keep your business and your parents business as two distinct topics, post-wise, for now to save mess and confusion. It'll have to be later on today, though so - as per, bear with...)

If your dad makes any squirming noises, just tell him, 'you NEED, repeat, NEEEEEED-uh!, to watch this, trust me on that!'. That'll get him intrigued to know what you're talking about, enough to cooperate, eh. And it's true. He needs to learn that if you want to disarm and conquer a woman then you have to WIN her over - woo her silly - even in the face of EVEN DESPERATE attempts to resist. Sure, you can piss her off or make her feel jealous and insulted so that she does all the work or a large portion of it. But all that summons is her EGO, provoked into wanting to do battle and wipe the floor with yours (and you wouldn't want a woman like that, anyway). Cue your 40s and 50s Black & White movies... "Shut up aind KISS meh, Emileh!" "Nair, Quentin, storp eart, stop eart at WUNCE, Ey tell hyo!" "YAIRS, Emileh, YAIRS!" "NAIR, Quentin, NAIR!.....AIR!!!..........Ohhhh....." Quentin's just bent her over backwards and snogged her hard, anyway...whereupon Emily's dunfor, innit, andja dun't 'ear anuvver peep aatov'er and her ( now) silly grin. INNIT. *Some* cliches are bang-on true (because this aspect's wiring is still living in the dark ages)! And that 'not taking No', incidentally, is what Mr S always did (because, to be honest, at first, having come home from Espana and had time to adjust and slip back into my normal routine and back down to earth (i.e. back into my usual commitment-leeriness), I was a bit daunted by this hell-bent, over-passionate THING advancing on me the whole time so was trying to keep him somewhat at arm's length to avoid his grabby grasp for ages. (Trust me, Mr S takes all the credit for the fact we didn't stop at holiday romance stage.) I'm sure if Mr S can 'slay' me then, from what I've seen, someone mild-mannered and keen to please like your mother, won't be too difficult. If done right. Your dad, on the other hand, went, 'Fancy coming out for your birthday?', and your mum went, 'NO THANK-YOUP! [hoity sniff] But if you want to do something NICE for me on my birthday, then... yadder-yadder', and he went, 'Oh.... okayyyyy, theeeen'. Technical Merit: 4/10 Artistic Impression: 1/10 (and don't give up yer day job). Sorry "your dad", but, there you have it. OR you could say, 'you OWE ME - for embarrassing Tom and I last week!'. Or, another option, say to him, 'You won mum back yet, have ya? NO YOU HAVEN'T so - what do YOU know!' BASICALLY, Romance, particularly the unstoppably passionate kind, is porn of the intellectual variety....going through the Brain Door (that being The biggest sexual organ we own). ******** Sister noted. She's clearly enjoying the mothering. And clearly brother's cotton-ed on to their being mothering in the offing so he's trying to subtly-manly get in on the act ("just popping in, don't mind me"). ******** Tom thinking about it, noted. That's the ticket! (or one of them) - plant seed, retreat....and wait until the bloke takes 100% credit as if it'd been all his own idea all along, LOL. Tom's *always* sweet, whaddayatalkinabout! :-) What sort of watch? PS: 'something planned'. Gosh, we can't for the life of us think what he could MEAN! LOL Glad it didn't hurt. Knew it wouldn't. After all, we're not still back in the age where women rode side-saddle or did nothing more active than needlepoint, eh, so - hymen schmymen! The first attempt is always a bit strange but the second time onwards starts increasingly (possibly immediately) WOAH! The more practise, the better it gets because it follows the exact same principle as learning to dance ballroom a deux. So if you (and he) were left with stupid smiles on your faces ALREADY, then, CRIKEY - next time your socks might actually get blown off! :-) :-) These days, what with years of practise and strength of feelings getting MORE Honeymoon as time marches on, instead of less (diff that makes all the diff in terms of knowing you're with the oh-so-right person), we've gone through the self-penned labels, respectively, thus: Amazing Sex. Woah! Sex. Mountaintop Sex. Oh-my-god-there-IS-a-god! Sex. Complete Mindf**k Sex. Still calling this 'sex' is like calling Jesus some bloke in sandals! sex. Should we worry about whether it's so good our hearts could suddenly give out? sex. (Answer: who gives one, what a lovely way to go! LOL) ******** Whether it's your job as best friend to not take No for an answer is up to you, really, and whether you think she's worth the effort of 'taking control' of her too. But as it sounds like Tom's busy taking care of YOU then you should have some time and energy spare? Although, saying that, blister and bother should ideally be first in the queue. (Think that covers everything for now? RSvP, you grinning idiot, you, LOL. ******** PS: And now you can do me a favour (if you can?): What do women round about your age all want at the mo, can you give me some ideas (it's for son's gf and I haven't got a pigging clue because I used all my best ideas for her birthday)?

Just quickly, for your sons gf, have a look at the Amazon Dot its like £50 . It might not be her thing, but a few friends have got one. I got the Amazon Echo for my bday, think the only difference is price and size coz of the speaker from my aunt and I love it coz I can listen to audio books (got to buy them), play music and controls the lighting in my room, does all sorts. My watch (if that's why you were asking) is a swatch watch but tom has a problem with it because it 'ticks too loudly' ...but that might just be him being weird coz it doesn't bother me :-P.

An attention-seeking watch, eh? LOL Well, you'd think, knowing loud ticking gets on his nerves, he'd have examined the watch before buying or thought to check out that aspect specifically, shouldn't he. Anyway, cheers for the tip!

Ha- yes he should of done and he's just gonna have to it up with it! ******* Parents- ok thanks, all makes a lot of sense, didn't realise this was all really common, thought it was just my parents so it was really reassuring. I don't think my mum would of gone confronted them either, sometimes she surprise me, but I think she would of just turned the car around and assumed the worst! Deffinately agree with the reason why they wont make the steps to go to counselling coz they have jobs where people need them, I can see my dad thinking this more...think they need to get over themselves to be honest. So my mum wants me to take some sort of control and to ask her what's going on ? ok I be bossy and put my foot down, can be quite articulate once I get going :D. I'm not sure how much she'll tell me, what do I do then ? Insist on counselling and make sure they both follow it through? Only thing is my sis really pushed the boundaries (again) this weekend with my mum this time, not sure what she did yet but she managed to get herself grounded all weekend. No staying at my aunt for her! My mum has already been a bit snappy coz of last week, so and whatever sis has done has raised her stress levels even more but that might just be because no ones talking to her about this, I'm guessing! Was worried about it getting turning into an argument or one of us getting upset (more likely her) but Im just gonna do it today and see. Will make sure my dad and I watch pretty women over xmas partly coz I will look forward to using one of those above lines on him and just watching his expression on his face :-) . With him do I just keep encouraging him to keep trying?

Hey Lils, Sorry I missed you (was already over-busy and now suddenly it's (bah humbug) Xmas!). Did you have the talk with your mum in the end? Or manage to get dad to watch PW with you? How did both go?

Hey, Yeah spoke to my mum on Monday and I have answers! Just trying to remember everything coz it took like 3 (!) hours. once she started she didn't stop and told me nearly everything... I'm sure she held back on some things. But to start with, omg, she put up a really good fight, like you she might, about talking to me about this. I think she gave me every crap excuse she could think of: 'I'm too tired to discuss this", "this is between me and your dad!' and 'let's not talk about this now, with Christmas just round the corner, it's not a nice topic, you don't want to hear about it', (Really, I do that's why I'm asking duh) were just some of them. She even tried to get angry with me, well her version of getting angry, didn't exactly faze me. Nice try mother, didn't work and I stood my ground and got bossy :), tried to be sympathetic too coz there were bits where got got a bit upset and I didn't quite know what to say. Eventually, she cracked and knew I wasn't going to take no for an answer or leave her alone. More so when I explained to her just how much the sibs and I are getting more and more affected by what's going on (and that we've been more then patient) and not knowing any thing was unfair. plus the panic attacks I sometimes get, she didn't know about them and she realised she didn't have much of a choice, unless she wanted us to carry on feeling the way we feel! Anyways, your guess was right, they were arguing about work. My dads work. My dad got approached by a private hospital and got offered a job. It's more hours, more working nights too but also this hospital is quite far away from home, which meant he would be away working all week and some weekends too. My mum wasn't too happy about this and she said made it very clear at the time when he first told her about it, but my dad still went and met these people and had meetings and stuff with them. Apparently There was no point in telling me or sibs coz it would of taken a few months to sort out. So when they split up, they were obviously discussing this and it turned into a really big argument. my mum basically told him she didn't want him to take it and it would really put a strain on their marriage because he'd be away all the time and when he was home he'd be tired and grumpy <not much difference there, already is! :p) and it wouldn't be fair on any of us. Also their future plans were, when(if) the sibs go to uni, thats when they were planning to do some travelling and relax a bit more and she couldn't see any of that happening. All she could see was her being on her own. They also argued about a load of other things too that my mum said they should of argued about when it happened but they left a lot of things unsolved. I'm slightly confused because he hates change, he avoids it, just him moving out was enough for him, he seriously didn't know what to do with himself. But maybe if he knew had his family home to come back too, that might of been different. She said my dads response to what she said was that she was being really unfair and he expected her to be more supportive to which my mum pointed out that she had supported him through EVERYTHING. she has, he used to work in hospitals in London before he joined the surgery he works at now - to him building a house, apparently that was really stressful too. Also it was around the time my mum had also got her new job and she was a bit like where's my support?! I can kinda picture the argument and what they said to each other. obviously he hasn't taken the job (yet) but the offer is apparently still open. Annnnnd This is the bit I don't like - my dads 'friend' is someone who he went to medical school with, he's always kept in contact with her. My mum knows of her. Shes like a consultant at this hospital. my mum totally convinced she has a thing for him, ew gross, and she's played a part in him getting offered a job and that she's been encouraging him to take it and she clearly doesn't seem to give a crap that he has a wife and kids. She's also 100% certain there is also something going on between them :-/, not before but now which is why she was so angry a few Sundays ago. I asked her what proof she had and she doesn't have any other then a gut feeling and she lives far away so when she visits him where does she stay? Surprisingly there are things called hotels! But she's adamant and didn't take in any thing i said. But from what you said above about what my dad thoughts would be like in a new relationship, I'm not convinced. Also he wanted to draw a line under everything at one point. She also clarified to me her friend is just a friend he's recently split up with his wife and is 'too confused' to be in any kind of relationship and they are just supportive to each other. My main reaction was so what are you both going to do about it?! Counselling? And she was like 'hmm maybe' and I was like 'no, you BOTH need to go, like you said you would AGES ago'. So I've been on her case and made sure she's looking into it, otherwise I'm worried, my dad will take this job and she will be left on her own. Why are they sitting on their bums doing f all? Grr :-| But after my mum was quite grateful I made her sit down and tell me, she looks better and says she feel better. I think I should become like an interrogator (I wasn't that bad) or something :D .

Air, I say...! It wasn't a guess (I don't do stabs in the dark), it was a concerted calculation :-p. But I'll let you off and put it down to mere semantics, LOL. Well done you for having got her to finally confide in you (you're not a kid, eh - you've proved you were 'born 40' since the start of this thread)! "which meant he would be away working all week and some weekends too." Er- NO!!! If he wanted to have any part of a singleton's lifestyle, replete with unilateral decision-making and action-taking, he shouldn't have got married and made a family - BER-BOM! So I'm not surprised mum wasn't too happy (understatement!). "but my dad still went and met these people and had meetings and stuff with them." He didn't?! The arrogant, pompous s*d! And 'strain on their marriage' is likewise a huge under-statement, not to mention the sizeably smashed trust from having broken a firm promise and plan over something hugely fundamental (the goal to kick back and travel). IT COULD KILL IT. And it would also create conditions that would see him ripe for falling prey to an 'accidental' affair (not with said friend, though)! (Oh, god, some men are so bloody stupid, aren't they? Makes you wonder where their brains are!) Well, in that case - GO MUM, YOU GIVE HIM HELL, LUV!!!! Hates change. Hmm... Here we go with the 'got to ask'-ing: He isn't trying to follow someone to their new place of work, is he? SHE'S being really unfair? WTF?! She's not the one who's trying to move the giant goalposts! "I can kinda picture the argument and what they said to each other." Yeah, me too. Well, it's quite simple. He's married with a family. As such, 'boardroom-wise', he's a member of a team of two (or three now you're an adult, albeit junior one). Nothing major can be changed without a genuinely unanimous vote. Those are the rules of being a spouse, take it or leave it, is his only choice. But this female friend is not a 'thing', not for him. He proved that when instead of marrying her he married your mum. I mean - all that time and he's never bitten? Ber-bom! (again). Sure, he might like the ego-boost he gains from suspecting she holds a candle to him, newly/still. But other than that, he's just pulling her in or letting her pull herself in because she works beautifully as a frightener and leverage aid (do it or the puppy goes to another home!). He's using her, in other words. *That's* all that's 'going on between them' (from her side only). No, if he were thinking of having an affair, it would far more likely be a new woman, so - good, then - no affair, strike again from the record, but in its place add "U-see-eer! :-p". Mum is not 'certain' whatsoever, it's not even gut instinct. It's just her fear - which dad is merrily feeding into while it serves his purposes for gaining a higher professional status and pay packet (and other stuff...read on). I seriously doubt whether he even has had *any* actual plans to take it. *I* think he's been wanting a bargaining tool (for forcing a change in certain habits and dynamics) for years, now...and here it is, what a beaut. So has your mum, but your dad's reached his limit first, hence... He LETS your mum be aware of this female threat, he DOESN'T reassure her (despite he could), and meanwhile........hasn't accepted the job despite the offer is cast-iron there and drumming its fingernails. FUNNY, THAT. I repeat: just something to hold over your mum in order to finally make Mrs Stuck-in-the-mud have to make changes. Well, he needs to be a little more understanding, doesn't he. She's largely been in stasis all this time, what with having three, ever-growing, ever-changing mini-mes to constantly be distracted by. But now "her turn" to have a bit of me-me fun is looming, and - BAM! - dad starts threatening to take it away from her. But he's not going to make the threat real because otherwise it'd defeat his far simpler objective - as I say, to bring about a major renegotiation session. That's why they're 'sitting on their bums'. It's like I said - disagreement...unable to reach a new agreement (yet)...not enough patience to let the process unfold and provide a solution naturally...enter control-freakery force-age. Yeah, OH YEAH, he's DEFINITELY a bit Higher Functioning Aspergic. And so's your mum ("dunlike chaaaange!"...it's a HUGE AS trait, albeit isn't actually a problem with 'change', more inability to cope with the transition part, the 'crossing over' the bridge bit...once they're across, they're fine, even better than your NTs at adapting). I think you should become a counsellor-come-life coach. Prescriptive type, obviously. Control-freaks a speciality (cost £1k/hour LOL). ;-) Are you now going to talk to your dad? Do pass on my above sentiments, won'tcha. ;-) But here's the good news: Aspies are limpets, it's SUPREMELY difficult to get them to detach from their chosen rock. But if forced to attach to a new one (e.g. tsunami wave) - SSSSSSLUP! all over again. Those two aren't going to be detaching or splitting up in any serious way any time soon, Lils, this *is* just a disagreement that's jumped gratefully into the 'need to argue properly' tray. And that's another of my famous 'guesses' ;-D. You can relax, now, and have a happy crimbo. :-)

PS: You were right... I can see your dad isn't narcissistic any more than your mum. *But* he's not as mentally strong as your mum (gosh, how rare, LOL) and so where she's got COMPLETELY over her however much narc parent and their repeated, subliminally-affecting demonstrations, he hasn't - in terms of, whenever he feels powerless and lacking bargaining power (cos you're mum's a limpet when it comes to stubbornness as well), he lowers himself to bringing out his parents' toolbelt, including, this case, emotional blackmailing and manipulation tactics. Edit: UNFAIR emotional blackmailing and manipulation habits (after all, if someone manipulates you to success, having your interests firmly in mind, you're happy and grateful the minute you realise, aren't you, not miffed or cheated-feeling). So I'm now here: mum - degree of HF AS; dad - similar degree of HF AS but still with second-hand NPD habits too much mentally to-hand when desperate and helpless. He needs to cut that RIGHT out and grow a backbone, because... Aspies and Narcs are basically Superman versus Lex Luther, both somewhat psychopathic, but the Aspie 'evil for the power of good/for all' versus the NPDs 'evil for the power of bad aka "me-me-me"'. They can get on quite well when it's sunny, but - cloud and rain? STAND WELL BACK, the NPD is going to "DIIIIIIIE". And that's because an Aspie will fight to the death for TRUTH whereas the NPD will fight to THEIR death for lies - and much sooner. Because nobody's inner wisdom would let their host die for no reason. So put it this way: an Aspie will argue until the NPD goes Blue in the face. Mum's won before she's even started. QUITE RIGHT TOO! He's showing a weakness, a childish sliver that's somewhat stunted, if he'd allow himself to 'be' whichever of his parents just because he can't be bothered to think things through better and/or would rather shove things under the rug 'for another time', just because he's an emotional lightweight compared to her, brain unable to tolerate it. *He* needs to learn better conflict resolution skills, whereby the only tool or weapon he needs is HIS OWN BRAIN. *Definitely* get him to watch PW! You never know, he might experience an epiphany and cease behaving like a tw*t.

Oh, and I'll bet you any money you like that it was your *dad's* idea to 'keep it between ourselves'. Yeah. It's called, she's a tough enough adversary without her having a band of troops so I'd better erect a firm barrier in front of the troops shop. Didn't work, did it (only truth, rightfulness and honesty works), dad's going DOOOOWN! Oh, and, be prepared for mum to start leaning on and confiding in you more and more, now. You might have to supervise and temper her in that regard, in case she in her upset doesn't have her gauges working normally, but other than that, you'll find it a lot more relaxing than remaining in that horrid dark. The other up-side is that you and mam will end up bestest of friends and confidants after this....which, forgive me for saying but I couldn't help notice, was obviously missing before now. So - lots of DeLuxe Lemonade, and huge improvements to the old Lemonade, to come.

Oops, forgot to say, we did watch pretty women. My dad did try to get out of it, so I told him he needed to watch it and he owed me for embarrassing me and tom. I don't think he's had an epiphany, yet or made him look at his tw*t-ish behaviour. I liked it :-D. nice not being in the dark anymore, feel more relaxed. Yeah I did talk to my dad, I wanted him to know, I know what's going on and he look a bit shocked when I told him. Dunno how long he thought it could go on for and yeah it probably was his idea to keep it all quiet. Didn't go very well though, He really p*ssed me off, so I walked out and went home, before I called him the all names that were in my head! Not great, I know but I think I was angry with him before I even saw him. I also wanted some reassurance from him and to tell me he wasn't going anywhere But he acted like it was no big deal and said in the new year he's meeting to these people at the hospital and he is really considering taking the job. He also said lots of families have one parent who works away and he'd be home most weekends...most weekend, aint good enough! Definitely Lost his brain, self centred g*t. The sibs now have an idea and my mum has also told my aunt what's going and she was like 'wtf?! Give me his address, I have a xmas present for him' ...don't doubt for a second she will go round and have words , unleash the aunt on dad :). Yeah did feel quite disconnected from my mum and we weren't really talking much or as close as we were. But things are already going back to normal, and she's talking to me more. she's also driving me part of the way to Cornwall next week coz I 'really helped her' . she's also taking the sibs away for a few days too aunt so dad will be on his own. Tom decided to go to Cornwall for xmas (phew!) of course he thought it was all his idea, he also has man flu but mainly because he realised his mum was really not happy. He went on wed miss him, but don't miss his moaning "I'm sooooooo ill' :-P, hopefully better when I see him next week. Quite like the idea of being a counsellor, kinda felt like that's what I was doing with my mum but was hard work! life coach similar?

Doesn't matter what he thinks did or didn't take/have an effect on his attitude, on the conscious level. It still all went in. And there it sits, doing it's thing (click-whirr-click)... Just watch that space. (Should mention at this point while I remember: I forgot to add up there that my suspecting your mum and dad are however much Aspie is just that - a suspicion...based on my having spotted more than three undeniably major symptoms, courtesy of yourself and what you've reported. It's not possible to actually diagnose over the ether, second-hand at that, so please don't take it as read, just conjecture.) Glad you confronted your dad over what you now know. It really wasn't fair or the right thing, he and your mum having inconsiderately let slip just enough signs and information to keep you awake at night (Naughty Chair for them). Ignorance may be bliss but as you now know, ignorance in the face of intriguing, negative crumbs - dropped accidentally at that - drive you and your imagination haywire and place you in the victim position. You were entitled to be given the rest of the puzzle pieces, in other words, something not up for any reasonable, rational debate. Why - did he try? Is that why you ended up walking out in disgust? I don't think he genuinely aims to take that job. But if he were to tell YOU that then you'd be bound to reassure mum...and THEN where would be his 'brilliant' leverage for getting her to back down on whatever it is he thinks she should back down on? Me, I suspect he's doing what *all* men who find their wives a bit too intimidating do: You don't act like you're in-love with me any more so I'm going to push a major button and see whether and what sort of fuss you make - the bigger the fuss, the more reassurance that I'm wrong and you *are* still fruit-loopy over me underneath all the life crud. Granted, some men resort to this after having tried too many times to get a straight answer or demonstration that doesn't then only disappear all over again only a few days or weeks after - in which case, fair enough (- if you're not being given information to which you're entitled in order to emotionally protect yourself (every human's right) because the other lover seems to have ceased doing that mutual duty, then, you're entitled to help yourself in whatever way you can so's not to send yourself crazy -)...but some can't be a*sed/don't have the time and energy to do it bit-by-bit in increments and jump straight to major manipulation. So I think he's just TAUNTING your mother with the possibility, as in, 'Let me see you care enough about me and our marriage to kick up a sustained fuss'. In OTHER words: Don't tell me, show me - I want to see you fight for me! And anyway (were it pertinent) - those families he cites as 'examples' are the ones that tend to disintegrate (when, not if). Fires have to be fed DAILY in order not to die down or out, not once per week. That simple. He'd be giving his marriage and normal family life a death sentance. But I'm sure he knows that ('no big deal', pff...is he trying to make out he's mentally deficient? Clearly!) and I'm sure it's just a case of 'can't be seen to (cough!) back down until given the motivation to' and his now seeing you as go-between messenger whom likewise must now be fed propaganda. Think about it, if he told you he wasn't serious but was trying to play your mum, you'd be straight round to tell her because it were the only right thing to do. So he's only telling you what it serves him to have you know. Put it this way Lils: if this career move so important and so desired and so there for the taking - surely lately was the perfect time to accept it or even start it? So - GOTTIM. He's fibbing. Not about the offer being real but about his considering it seriously. Semi-fibbing, a White lie, I should say, but where overall he could still claim he were telling the truth (clean conscience). But that is NOT the way to get what you want or need from a partner because even if it works short-term, it would cause MAJOR, lasting resentment which would start a whole run of problems of its own (duuuuh!). Your dad is basically emotionally NOT VERY CLEVER. Ha-ha - unleash the hounds! (- Auntie) :-D Gimmie her address and I'll happily go with her! LOL (Joking, sadly.) "she's also driving me part of the way to Cornwall next week coz I 'really helped her' ." Now there you go in terms of seeing the size of her gratitude! :-) Let's hope Auntie can talk him into dropping his silly and very destructive ruse. Tom's probably caught man flu BECAUSE he's been seeing how much he upset his mum. Think about it - any bloke who'd want you to so soon meet his mum and family (mum, really, because she's the person and relationships expert) must be pretty damn close, normally, with discord and falling out of favour so rare that it would hit him *very* hard - HENCE, worrying leading to a compromised immunity. But it's great to know he's got such an active conscience...that's what you want in a bloke (TICK!). You could be a counsellor *and* life-coach, all at once. It'd just be about helping the person to identify what the root problem or bundle of problems were and then running through all the practical ways in which to achieve any then obvious solutions, thereby not sending the person away again half-baked. After all, it's no good a person knowing what's up with them if they don't know how to put paid to it, is there. Preparation is useless without application or the means to apply. Plus, some people seek therapy just to arm themselves with ready excuses. You know the type, 'Oh, sorry, I do know I'm like that and I do know it makes me a terrible person, boo-hoo' (beating themselves up verbally in front of you)...and nothing else - no, 'So I'll stop by making x y and z changes'. They just carry on transgressing with - now that you, the 'victim' know they have that weakness or inadequacy - YOUR ASSUMED BLESSING OR EVEN COMPLICIT-NESS. Nope - no excuses...Money where mouth was or EFF OFF WASTING MINE AND EVERYONE ELSE'S TIME (lol). Anyway, if I don't get to speak to you for a few days ("bah humbug") - have a lovely Humbug! :-)

Have a good xmas toooo

Ok, got it on the aspie thing, although I'm sure my dad is. Either that or he's just really weird/odd. Yeah definitely naughty chair for both of them, there were quite a few sleepless nights! I hope my dad is just taunting and wanting a reaction from my mum . Feels like some sort of weird game. No, my dad didn't even try to give me (and still hasn't) any reassurance or anything else. It was 'Poor me' and he was all depressive and defensive. He was saying stuff like 'I tried on her birthday' , 'what does it matter anyway, your mum doesn't care anymore', which felt more like a threat that he was going to take the job and I was a bit like you have kids too by the way. Then he used the example of Tom's dad (and lots of other families) work away from home all week, which I might of been a little over sensitive about him saying that, but I didn't like that he used my boyfriends family as an example when he doesn't even know them or never met them! :-I. And he's not going to ...not for a loonnnnng time! Obviously he's questioned Tom on what his parents do for a living - won't be leaving them alone together again god knows what else he's asked. Tom's dad does work away in the week, I think he always has done but he's retiring next year and from what I can his parents are happy, where as mine obviously aren't at the moment, plus toms parents are older. Bit of a difference. when I mentioned counselling to him he was like 'I never said I'd actually go', er yes you did! definitely in disgust before we got into an argument which is never a good thing...both red heads, we clash when we argue :p but couldnt get him to Listen like with my mum. Yeah emotionally thick. My dad didn't like it that I went home. I didn't see him again till xmas day and there was tension between us but I ignored it. I made sure the sibs and I were there for the morning so we had the rest of the day with my mum and aunt. Then on Boxing Day he was a miserable sh*t, which wasn't fun, and he was just snappy, when I got home I kinda went and hid in my room feeling bit upset that was until my aunt came and found me and after a chat she dragged me back down stairs again and we got drunk, such a bad influence! Pit bull unleashed :) ( she promised my sister she wasn't going to shout at him or hit him ha) My aunt went to speak to my dad today but she came back more frustrated then when she left. She thinks a few days on his own as of tomorrow (or today) without all of us away give him time to think. Ah that makes sense about Tom! really didn't want anymore tension, which there would of been if he didn't go! Feeling a bit nervous again coz I'm spending nearly a week with his family and there are cousins and grandparents to meet, ah. He went surfing on xmas day whilst he was still ill *rolls eyes* apparently it's tradition hmm. there is a counselling course (for beginners) starting at a college nearby which I think I might do as long as there is no age limit just to see if I like it I'm never too sure on giving good advice so I wanna learn.

Thank god for your auntie, she's a really cool lady by the copious sounds of it! And as per, I agree with her. It's no good trying to reason with a proud man who's already hugely on the defensive and feeling like no-one understands him (which clearly he is if even Auntie can't for once get any sense or cooperation out of him). It still all goes in, though, Lils, it still all goes in (some men are just s.............................l...............................ow...Zzzzz). Yeah, we do understand him, it's HE whom evidently doesn't understand...that being a good husband and father (and no doubt worrying about his and mum's retirements, including the funding for said eventual travelling abroad...or cocoa) takes a lot more than putting bigger and better food on the table and the surplus in the fridge ready for old age (so to speak), you have to be interacting and investing meanwhile to boot. Otherwise you'll just end up providing for people who no longer see any reason to continue eating from your table to begin with, thus is a wholly self-defeating object, bit like getting all spruced for a hot date before munching on a whole bulb of garlic (I mean, I know preparation is 'everything', but - NOT LITERALLY!). Neither is there any point to making just one of her birthdays pleasing and memorable if the rest of the time afterwards would be full of even inadvertent neglect. The truth is, any relationship lasts ONE DAY. Even without our realising it, every single morning that we awaken we make the subconscious but deep decision to start the imperceptibly upgraded relationship, i.e. accept the subtle promotion. I mean, OBVIOUSLY monetary concerns are at the root of this, from the fact the offer is for PRIVATE as opposed to just another NHS practise. But the fact of the matter, with your mum really not open to it, is that she obviously cares more about having her husband and the father of her kids daily beside her (gosh, how queer). And ANYWAY, surely there are private practises nearer to home? So why this one hospital in particular? Do YOU know, Lily? Did he say anything? Tom's dad could work on the moon for all he likes, but the glaring and impassable difference here is, Tom's mum clearly quite likes it that way and must have liked or seen benefits to the concept to start with to have agreed and still be married to him, whereas YOUR MUM DOESN'T AND IT'S HER HE'S PARTNERED UP FOR-LIFE WITH - so *END OF*. One "Aye" and one "Nay" equals NAY. So he can damn well choose, can't he - his marriage and normal family life or this mere job. But if he hopes your mum is going to get worn down then used to the idea or find herself and her resolve diminished by this period of 'Coventry' - or, perhaps, eventually agree to move out there (wherever there is) - then he's undoubtedly very much mistaken....as we've just witnessed with regards to her ability to FASHION a turbo even in the fact of her own, natural one having seized up or gone out for the day. In fact, I reckon the longer he refuses to shelve the idea permanently, the more resentment and cause for doubt and alarm (and future bad feeling) he's going to cultivate in her. Can he not see how anathema the idea is to her by how 'violently' she's reacting since he mentioned it *and still*? I repeat, your mum is SO DETERMINED not to fold that she'd even deliberately contrive a false impression (other woman) that hurt like uggery! Well, anyway, we don't know what's going through his head at the mo. For all we know, secretly he's decided against already but just doesn't want to let on and be seen to back down too quickly in case the triumph-based confidence goes to your mum's head in terms of any future 'arm wrestles'. Give him a reason he's not thought of yet, to back down, Lily. Tell him that you wouldn't be where and how you are right now if it weren't for his having been in your life in such an involved day-to-day way...particularly as it's no lie anyway, psychologically speaking...., but that you ain't finished baking yet.... does he WANT you (and your sibs) to do a sunken souffle job and on his head be it? Okay, you might not, you three. But WHY RISK IT FOR JUST A BISCUIT? You see, I really don't think your dad WOULD have even given the idea the time of day if he realised just HOW vital to kids' developments it is to have one's dad constantly around and to-hand. Or put another way: half a parental unit equals half parenting *or* one parent knackered to the power of double (equals half a parent). Men need to be needed just as much - or possibly more - than women. Make him realise how vitally important he is, switch his perception of what Success means. If the family home set-up even overly resembles a broken one then broken home is going to be the environmental influence as evokes the corresponding psychology and outcomes ON YOUR YOUNGER SIBS ESPECIALLY. So in ACTUAL fact, what your dad is considering is quasi divorce versus actual divorce. Guillotine or gibbet. WHAT A DRONGO, as we used to say in school (entirely appropriate, the way he's thinking- or NOT thinking right now). Make him feel like the family will suffer majorly without his proper, full-time presence and input and remind him of how many other private practises there are. With a private job offer ALREADY on the table - he can mention that bona fide 'recommendation' to any interviewer (and explain how only the distance was the deal-breaker) and immediately get viewed as red-hot goods to be snapped up on-the-spot. SIMPLES! If even over the coming days or weeks he still seems dead-set on this particular clinic/hospital then we have to ask ourselves, what OR *WHO* is it that makes that one establishment apparently so head-and-shoulders above those already in your postcode. The good news is that he was a miserable, snappy sh*t. ;-) Think about it. All kids are that once they realise they can't have what they thought they wanted and could get, and there's going to be no backing down and no room for manoeuvring. I repeat, that private clinic is not the only fruit, not by a long shot. And if it is, then we all want to know IN WHAT WAY(S) is it? Maybe the Who is himself? Maybe he's disappointed in himself thus far ("where's me Jag by now?!") and set on destroying what isn't really worth preserving (current job/career thus main lifestyle) or even just trying it on for size because he's never been reckless, ever, and the urge refuses to go back to permanent sleepibyes and miss its very last chance to escape his system? So that makes it even more necessary to remind him of his Number 1, most worldly important career: husband and father, one of the ones with his finger on the button in terms of what tomorrow's and the next day's (and the next's) adults will be like....including [drum roll...] towards the elderly and other societal dependants. ...not least because you, blister and bother are going to be the ones eventually one day deciding [drum roll again.....] which nursing home, added to the fact that one reaps exactly what one sows, no more, no less. Keep that one as your little Ace card in case worry over his old-age security is indeed a factor. And leave these articles (whoops) lying around... but leave them lying in with other, non- or less-related print-outs (and then ring to ask, 'Did I leave a load of A4 print-outs at yours the other day, can you have a look to see if they're there for me? If he's even slightly AS then the curiosity will get him looking). He needs to appreciate that this is FAR more than just a career-impacting decision (understatement!): http://www.medicaldaily.com/why-father-daughter-relationship-so-important-246744 http://www.medicaldaily.com/fathers-love-dads-child-development-importance-dads-389813 ...This bloke's too stubborn to leave it solely to your mum and her now, equally frustrated and livid sister (obviously she is if blister asked her not to whack him one, eh). And anyway, he's your (and sibs') bloke just as much, isn't he, irrespective that the nature is fairly different, so I fail to see how this could count as you sticking your oar into purely adult biz. IOW, start taking the chair away, gradually, and at the exact same time be overtly seen to be bringing a THRONE in with the other hand. Make his ego your *friend*. That's what I'd do. And from what you've just reported, your opinion of your dad is evidently especially important to Mr Snappy-Pouty-Blinkered. Ha-ha, I've just realised - he's now got FOUR adults trying to block his silly path! There again, it's his fault it needs four where just one, the main one, should do, is it not. Oh and by the way, he doesn't want counselling because he already knows he's 100% in the wrong and that any decent counsellor would be able to see it (and might well vocalise it in front of them as would put instantly paid to his little campaign), BERBOM! PS: "[there is a counselling course (for beginners) starting at a college nearby which I think I might do as long as there is no age limit just to see if I like it] I'm never too sure on giving good advice so I wanna learn." You being never too sure - from what I've seen so far on other threads - makes no odds to the fact that you're instinctually sh*t hot, even *without* much first-hand life experience! ((*whispers under breath with semi-zipped lip*) Im facht, ou're evem mepmer ap it mam Pom, im my opimiom...mut mon't pell Pom I fhed vat, for Gog's shake! ;-))

Took me like a little while to get the last bit ha, thanks thats given me some confidence to go and answer some more threads, and lips are zipped :-D. Yeah, thank god my auntie was there , if it wasn't for her the rest of Boxing Day would of been a bit crap, and depressing . I brought my dads bad mood home with me :-/ but she snapped me out of it and was like forget get about it, it's still xmas. But I understand his bad mood, makes sense now from what you put. no one is sticking up for him or even looking at it in his way coz it's stuoooopid, so he's on his own. My Auntie has also really pushed my mum on counselling even if it's just her that goes for the moment. Think they found someone. She gets a million aunt points. Ah man, I gotta talk to my dad agin ? *sighs* - joking, unless my mum talks to him before I do, which is unlikely, but it was what my aunt was trying to convince her to do as well when they get back from being away. I just don't think I'm gonna get through to him with words, actions deff speak louder with him. So I Will print out (and read) the articles too, and leave them lying around round at his place. I think he will deff be curious and go looking for them. No, he hasn't said why he wants to work this particular hospital , that was an obvious question to ask that I missed, oops! The only thing I do know is that his 'friend' works and lives there - I can kinda see why my mum is still totally convinced something is going on and that he's being lead on. There are private hospitals closer to home, if that's what he wants to go do but I thought he was happy where he works now. I will question him about it though, a lot, will just have to wait a few days till I'm home! Tom's not happy with him either, he rolled his eyes when I told him and was like he needs to sort himself out and promised to distract me, he's done that so far :). So maybe five adults, not that he'll say anything. Anyways Happy new year :-).

Yep, Happy January 1st (lol, I'm so cynical). 1. Actions always do, with men, whether conscious of it or not. That and liking things to be all their idea (which we've just had confirmation includes him) is why you 'forget' your reading material (or is it Tom's - who knows?). Leave them messy as a contents pile in, say, an over-roomy, open manilla envelope or open-sided plastic folder as well, just to make retrospective detection of snooping unlikely on your part thus all the more tantalisingly do-able on his, lol. 2. 'Being led on' my a*se. I still reckon he's playing this woman friend-with-the-job and her colleagues as much as he is your mum, using said fact of her being a friend and having to act like one (patient and understanding) first and foremost. Think about it - isn't this whole job vacancy and interview schedule set-up so uniquely and conveniently in terms of it waiting around for him (assuming there even *is* a job and he hasn't just enlisted this *mere friend* to aid and abet). I wonder just how long the oh-so-casual and patient option would remain open to him if, say, he were to at any point tell this woman, this acting practise representative come go-between, that he couldn't possibly accept their opening while his whole married and family life were mid 'taking a nose-dive'? What sort of people, even those who *weren't* your friends or connected via friendship, would be capable of cancelling the invitation or trying to pressure him into attending the interview on their schedule or certainly where concerned accepting it? Under nightmareish circumstances like his? Who'd want to be seen behaving like such a cold-hearted, mercenary a-hole as that?? Would you want to be the person or group of people/practise that earnt itself the kind of cruel and nasty reputation associated either with having cancelled the poor sap concerned's opportunity or having pressured him to have to start according to practise needs and schedule? It'd be tantamount to refusing an employee the right to attend their own parent's funeral or forcing them to change its booked-in date! Kicking them when they're already seriously down. Nay. You'd feel obliged to wait until holding the option open for the person were finally no longer reasonable by anyone's standards, not even Jesus himself's! Maybe this woman has always fancied him and is grateful, finally, for this opportune lure and hook, or maybe she hasn't. Your mum's got a HUGE head-start on her on that score, regardless (hardly a fair race). But a new LOVER would be round at his house *all the time*, not just occasionally or only enough that you all spotted it merely the once. This woman could be trying to finally bag your dad but that doesn't mean he's interested that way any more than he used to be (not) or not busy just using her and her job proposal as pure leverage - albeit, KNOWING he isn't seriously enough considering taking it would still leave your dad anxious and agitated about attending, being found out in that regard and getting told 'user!..time-waster!'. So the clock is still ticking and the pressure still on rather than not whatsoever. Plus - they were friends - fact. What if she just needs his help in being accepted and included more at an otherwise still chauvenistic place of work? There's no behaviour on her part to suggest the new lover or hope-to-be lover hypothesis, is there. 3. ...So I'm sure he *is* still perfectly happy at his current practise! Anyway, it's not the sort of question that one should even need to ask in order to be enlightened over. If there were any solid-gold, cast-iron reason why he were having to consider such an impractical option, your father would have said so already as his instant arguments shutter-upper. It would have been the very FIRST thing he'd have been spouting in his defense. So clearly, there isn't any. And what company can allow that sort of cavalier time-taking or -giving over a job vacancy, anyway? Answer: something that provides far more notice than a mere job quitting/changing, i.e. [a] planned maternity leave where the woman returning, by her own admission, looks as if it'll become unlikely, [b] planned practise expansion plus various new departments and positions created - equals, no major hurry. But still "a" cut-off point. Hence already as far back as *October, no less*, the invitation reared its head yet was capable of waiting until January, almost 3 months, to even start the ball rolling. What a superb marital bargaining tool, what a handy shelf-life. 4. You don't get far in medical general practise, let alone practise or acting manager, if you don't naturally possess shed-loads of common-sense, Lils. I really don't think he'd be so blatently obvious about this woman as to pull her out in the open for all to see and ditto the fact of her working for the very hospital he's aiming to work at and re-locate to - do you? If - IF - he's sh*ttily playing mind-games (whether or not he thinks desperation when up against your mum shifts it suddenly to acceptable) - then there's a *very* fine, *very* delicate line to be struck, or [1] it wouldn't work for being too transparent and [2] by some women could alone be deemed grounds for a divorce. (You imagine being your mum, basically at whatever point realising she's been CONNED - what's more, using the stoke-age of her worst personal-life fear(s) - by her own so-called husband-protector-needs provider, and you'll instantly feel what I mean.) 5. "Cheers, 'friend'! Thanks for the opportunity I needed FOR STRONG-ARMING MY WIFE and teaching her a future lesson she'll never forget ("stop emasulating meee!"). But it serves me to go along with you for as long as I can manage without taking the damn thing.... And this is precisely why I'm meanwhile being seen as acting against my usual commonsense, to do what currently, circumstantially-speaking, has become an utter No-No of an AUDACITY, nay, TEMERITY, nay, *F**KING CHEEK!...."- Put it this way, Lily - you would have told Tom 'P*ss off, what are ya - INSANE?!', if during a similar, still-fresh, post-blow-out and stand-off period, with Tom not even having 'taken it back' and apologised yet, he suddenly, without-warning, wholly unexpectedly....RANG AND INVITED YOU OUT FOR YOUR BIRTHDAY! Do WHAT?! In case you hadn't noticed, pal, you're in my extremely bad books right now! Well, I don't know about you but I reckon most stickler-for-etiquette women like your mum - hearing that instead of what they WANT to hear at that point ("din't mean it, thowee, can I come home now?") - would during that phonecall consider that invitation of his as a glaring signal that in actual fact he was dead set on GETTING ROUND an apology (think about it), and slam the phone down. Because one should say sorry and THEN offer the invitation. Your mum's too much of a lady, hence still let him feel he were somehow being allowed to give an alternative gift in the form of letting her have you guys on 'his' time (- outmanoeuvred already!). So he must have gone, 'Oh, go on?', or (more likely) 'But WHYYY NOT?' a couple of times...pushed in the wrong and non-clever way. So it's like this: Oh, go on - have a slice of cake, please-please? / No thanks / Why not? / I just would rather not, thank-you / But WHY? / (sigh) Oh, well, alright, just a very small one...but the fruitcake, not the jam sponge. That amount of control against losing your rag even when at liberty to is upper-middle manners, that is. That's high diplomacy...no wonder she can cope being a teacher - not just because of the kids but the other teachers! We're talking Heirarchy plus Office Politics City! I mean - did *you* enjoy that aspect of school?! Would *you* wanna go back into that social minefield?! Well, they do. And when you're daily dealing with 'She said this/she said that/it wasn't me it was her because she told Gemma that I'd said X and I hadn't and- / Yeah, but Gemma told me what you told my boyfriend which was that I'd snogged Tim- SHE DID, MISS?! - / Yeah, but I didn't though - I DIDN'T, MISS! - that was Helen, and you *knewwwww* it was her, you just! don't! like! me! just because of that time last year when blah-blah, which was *your* fault, not mine, and anyway-... / E-NOUGH!". Yeah. Enough. But it still goes in, still infects and circulates and infuses and drags their attitudes and modi operandi down to that petty level, leaving them risking being deemed by parents as "typically" supremely narrow and petty minded types if they're not *exceptionally* careful and self-aware. By the same token, that's how you get the sorts of opposite-extreme teachers who are snooty, superior and too unconcerned with details even towards their very clientele (parents): trying too hard to stay above it all to point of then unable to ever switch it off. (You'd have to have hung out in various staff rooms and/or be a parent to really appreciate what I'm saying, which is - the DOWNSIDE of 'Kids keep you young'.) He acted wholly inappropriately even for him because the sooner he can call the ruse off, courtesy of your mum folding, the sooner he escapes outwardly tarnishing his professional integrity in front of 'his peers'. Mr Usually Pragmatic & Socially Sensible & Careful showed he was under too much pressure to remember how circumstantially ridiculous that birthday invitation would come across as. He risked looking like an over-entitled, clumsy idiot because the clock (whether genuine one or not) already was ticking, couldn't AFFORD to wait and think it through. "Don't have to say Yes or No. I can use it and keep it alive for as long as I need it as my multi-person-blackmail tool. Well...at least for more than the usual decision-making period (and that's probably more than I need anyway, knowing Mrs Foldie)." Men can be very sneaky, Lily. I've seen every trick in the book, multiple times! So look at that wonderful, self-made "rock and hard place" shield against doing a thing either way (for a while)!...aside from issuing idle threats, of course. Only my wife can make it stop and all go away ("can't take the job after all, sorry, "compu'er said NO, I'm sure you can understand - I can't possibly ruin my marriage for a job"). Talk about can't lose?! ***** Men always miss at least one vital, giant detail, though, don't they. It's called, 'No, that's right, husband, we DIDN'T used to have a problem with our marriage - true. But that was BEFORE!...And never MIND how at the time you eventually backed down and agreed not to carry it out...That's not my point, here! You still went ahead IN THE FIRST PLACE with putting our marriage at huge risk with your ridiculous threat to go long-distance on me and the kids, despite you could IMMEDIATELY SEE how dead-against and upset about it I was!, but did YOU care that you were upsetting me to point of jeopardising our marriage together?!... so now, how the HELL am I ever going to be able to get over that and what it says about how you feel about me and us and how committed you still are or possibly ever were to begin with, eh - Einstein?!'. Oh, but didn't we know? - she's Mrs Forgiveness...he can see her halo-(halo-halo...) (idiot) No, she'd be right - that was Then, when he hadn't ever DONE this level of insult before (we have to presume?...since they were still married and snuggling?) Maybe he should take up betting in casinos or riding a monster motorbike instead, eh, if he's such a fan of huge risks and manoeuvre-ings. He can think himself Mr Clever-Pants Chess Player-Poker Player as much as he likes but - one, tiny problemo - HE WAS NEVER A SCHOOLGIRL or - worse in your mum's case - one that STAYED THERE PERMANENTLY. (Intensive training? - you betcha!) He's not in a woman's league (ha-ha!) when it comes to psychological warfare against one's peers of either gender, often carried on for weeks....months....on-and-off YEARS, hence, '[WHEN the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride, He shouts to scare the monster, who will often turn aside. But the she-bear thus accosted rends the peasant tooth and nail.] For the female of the species is more deadly than the male.' (- Rudyard Kipling) And that's the trouble, isn't it. Men didn't mind them "being better at something" when they still 'owned' the typically male stomping grounds because then they had X and women had Y [pun deliberate] - fairsie-sharesies. (Back then women's higher emotional-intelligence-led ability to affect, influence, bribe, manipulate, etc. from behind the scenes was called Feminine Wiles.) But society has increasingly for too long been encouraging men and women to compete and encroach into one another's skills territories. Women are emotionally far clever, not least because their whole lives they didn't ever even have to clock off when in public ("it's myy paaarty an' I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to, CRY if I want to..."). Practise makes perfect, practise for longer makes superior, and that is that is that. And most women can MULTI-TASK, as in, keep an eye on all congruous-making details at all times, including sub-details or just potential ones of possible diversions en route to possible outcomes....all bases covered, all Ts dotted, all Is crossed (...the man's! (ha-ha)). My money's on mum. He's failing miserably already for one reason alone: because he's the one in the wrong *plus* too much of a decent guy normally to be great at high-stakes poker. From what I can gather - regardless of issue and execution, intelligent women mostly all think men are emotionally stupid for the simple fact of believing they're actually emotionally CLEVERER than women. Women only openly go "rarr-rarr-rarr!" these days because that's what you have to do to survive in the male hunting grounds. Yes, it's taken as a habit, BUT, they spent far longer at more do-or-die depth, going, machinate-machinate-plot-bubble-toil-HA-TAKE-THAT!. So the minute they realise they're going to *have* to resort to 'down and doity' because he refuses to cease scraping the childish barrel'....they wipe the floor with them. Every. Time. ...Hence two thirds more broken-up men commit suicide than women. ....So, unless there's some giant leeway been granted him on that giving his final answer score, that flies in the face of normal good business practise, he must know what he's doing and must know he's never intending to accept that job (despite the employer doesn't). Only he doesn't know what he's doing (ruining) BEYOND that initial achievement. Gosh, how queer for a male not to foresee and work out consequences that far ahead, Lily. And that's why you witness his being so snappy and crestfallen to point of incapable of hiding it. He's finally realising he never could or would get one over on your mum, no matter HOW tightly he turns the thumbscrews. OH, YEAH, HE COULD! It's called, lead via your carrot. You be all-round lovely and princely to your woman and she'll do bloody ANYTHING for you - ANYTHING...certainly if it's in her power. BER-BOM! THAT'S what a mature, emotionally intelligent male does. (Too few of them around these days, though.) It's men's own fault. If men/the patriarchy had rewarded and credited women more befittingly for doing the greatest ever job known to humankind (producing and moulding always-potentially-dangerous 'tomorrow's adults') then women would never have gone, 'Right then - we'll come stand over HERE so that maybe THEN we'll get our recognition and appreciation, finally!.....oh, wait up - THIS IS FUN!! :-)'. If men weren't OVERALL equal to women then men wouldn't ever be heard saying 'that's not fair!'. If women weren't OVERALL equal to men then women wouldn't ever be heard saying, 'that's not fair!'. If it feels unfair, it probably is, same as 'if it looks like a duck, waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck - it's probably a duck'. Neither is superior. An apple versus a banana or vice-versa, never is, never can be, never will. Ever. Anyone of either gender that tries to be or tries to make out they are is emotionally thick as pig sh*t. But I digress (yabber-yabber-yabber)... So here endeth the sermon by s/he who thinks all 'naked apes' are downright so blinkered and short-sighted most of the time that they really can't see the woods for the trees or what's good for them. ...This case, your dad. He just didn't stop to think. PROPERLY, ALL THE WAY. He didn't behave like a REAL MAN that knows the secret behind making a Lambhourgini never-endingly purr and perform pleasingly to his every-...not command, but *will*. Whereby it was all her idea THANKS TO HIM. He's not used to working in a team, even a duo, is he, Lily. The career power's gone to his head and dumbed him down as a result. And anyway, what man was capable of performing optimally in any job interview or job itself (never mind with a new relationship and home on top!) while staring loss of his marriage and family in the face or newly coping with the real thing, even if kept tightly behind the facial mask in terms of outward appearance only? It would still make a move like that non-successful. It was always going to be a stupid and futile suggestion/threat, whichever way anyone looked at it. Zero carrot, innit! How hard IS it to sell someone an idea that gets them just as excited or even more excited than you? But the nucleic fact is this: Your mother was not the one to upset the apple-cart. If she contributed to the marital state as heralded the *urge* to start prodding it off its axis, that's a different kettle of fish entirely as demands no more punishment or torture than hearing this: 'Houston, I need this/that/things to change so can we discuss it, please'. Not any prodding. Prodding unnecessarily without warning shows fear and pessimistic expectation in motion. The mentality of the destined-to-lose. Maybe losing or winning isn't even his point, though. Maybe he's giving her the worst-case scenario so that in comparison the retaining of long working hours scenario no longer seems so objectionable? A or B - choose. Only, he forgot C: Neither, and pee off altogether (but thanks for having let me get so used to living without you that the umbilicus shrivelled and dropped off)!... (Ignore the playing away or permanently breaking-up aspect, the typically male short-sightedness is the point): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoZ99pfBBXY Still don't think it's going to get to that. We're just about three whole months on already and nobody but nobody has been to see their solicitor or is even making the slightest noises and moves in that direction, instead getting stuck into keeping it all at pettier level of allowing auntie to keep stepping in, etc. I expect auntie's biggest reason for wanting your mum to get counselling is to help her calm down and think straighter/cleverer. ********************************* Glad you're getting lots of (cough!) lovely distraction, courtesy of Tom, LOL.

Not ignoring the above, read and watched link, but got an update. My mum told me on Sunday she and my aunt had been to see my dad over the weekend, was a bit surprised but thinking about it, they had just spent three days away together and knowing my aunt, she would of talked and talked and talked and wouldn't of stopped until my mum finally agreed to go see my dad, coz she was adamant that thats what needed to happen. She went with my mum for moral support but apparently stayed quiet (hehe, bet she found that was hard) and let my mum and dad do the talking. My mum ended up giving my dad an ultermatum, her or this potential job. She said, she didn't even think about saying that to him, she wanted to shock him and make him think but she means it. It was because told he told her, he had a date this month, to go for a meeting at hospital and he was very serious about it but convinced it can work, if she would let it. But my mum told him it wasn't going to work, and even if he goes for the meeting she'll give him serious hell, because it feels like he's abandoning her/ family, which I get, i'd probably think that too! she told him if he forgets about it, like not so long a go he said he wanted to do, then they would have to go to counselling together but it would be on the right track to them getting back together/him moving back home . Oo what a hard decision to make! Lol. So obvious to everyone else but him :-I. she said she left after that so he could think about it. I wanted to go round and speak to him (Let-me-at -him!!) but she told me not to because it needed to sink in. Er ...it hasn't sunk in. I know it's all in his head, ticking away and I'm reeeaaalllyy hoping he'll realise what a tw*t he's being but he hasn't yet. Dunno if I'm too impatient but I spoke to him about this yesterday. Annnnnd here are his crappy reasons, which I don't think are even justiciable but whatever, at the moment he believes them, just like he believes my mum will be 'ok' with this eventually. - Wants to work at this particular hospital because he knows people who work there, not just his 'friend' . it's also at senior consultant level and he gets to work in what he specialises in, in a private hospital -nicer environment, apparently. - He can stay with his 'friend' in the week and not have to live in a hotel. I know what he's thinking - coz he's tight, he gets to save money if he stays with her. Also how convienant :-I, if what ever her name is does fancy him, urge, that would be perfect for her! Bet he didn't tell my mum that. I don't really want to tell her yet if he hasn't, coz she might go a bit mental. - More money obviously. More family holidays and for him and my mum (I don't think Extra holidays to even the most azamazing places are going to win her over). And he'd be able to help me a lot more when I got to uni and pay off any money so I will be debt free at the end of it. Hmmm, don't I need to learn? Not that I'm bad with money now but that was my first thought :-/ . Also him parting with money ...I get scared just asking him for like a fiver coz he questions me what I need it for. So yeah thats gonna work... not. - Doesn't want to commute into/work in London everyday, most obvious place to go , if he really want to work privately - if he was that serious, then he would do it?! Would rather travel however many hours twice a week? Answer was yes. - Lots of perks that come with job. - He will be home most weekends, that's the one thing he wants to get sorted when he goes to this meeting. Thinks he can get long weekend off. I'm sure there was more I just can't remember! :P. He finished off with 'I hardly see you in The week anyway and really only spend time with you at weekends so it's not going to be that different'. nice. I then spent about twenty minutes arguing with him about why this was not a good idea and that he really needed to listen to what my mum was saying to him and seriously really think about it. She gave him an ultermatum not ' yeah! go ahead take the job'. Anyways he got really angry and told me to butt out and that he wasn't going to be dictated to by an 18 year old ...ar*sehole, why's he being such a pr*ck? :( not like swore at him (was so close) or really shouted at him, if anything he got sarcasm. he's just being a spoilt kid still? I did get upset, (that was NOT the plan, the plan was to stay strong, stupid hormoans! ) but it was out of fear out and frustration and that he's being sooooooooooooooo Stupid. He did try to give me some reassurance by saying it was all going to be ok tried to give me a hug (geeet ooffff, I'm p*ssed off with you). Gonna be in for a bit of a shock isn't he ?! Coz when my mum says something in anger, she means it there's no winning her round. Did remember to plant the two articles at my dads, not that I feel like calling him and speaking to him at the moment. Weirdly, Megan had texted me whilst I was at my dads, so that was a good excuse to leave quickly. She wanted to hear about Cornwall - really didn't think she was that interested (also wanted to tell me about new bf too coz out of jealousy Holly has been ignoring her over xmas) but she got to hear a bit about my dad instead, lucky her, but it was nice, and better then going home. ************************* Lol, annoyingly not that kinda distraction, we were s*x deprived :( :( haha, only done it once more since the first time, so maybe Tom was more. His (old) room was in-between his mum and dads and a cousin on the other side, who had a little kid < who didn't know the meaning of knocking :-O , despite being told to, and kept running in and out. His family didn't really go out either, so we did - how dare they not want to go out into the cold :P. We even left really early on Sunday and we were waaaaaaaay ahead of his mum and dad, until Tom managed to lock us out of his car by leaving his key in the ignition at the services. Nice thing about Tom is, after the initial 'sh******t, can't believe I just did that!' He didn't get stressy or moody and he just sorted it out (tick). Did kinda feel like everything was against us but oh well.

It *is*...UTTERLY ridiculous, though, if you stop and think about it... a grown woman and a grown man, supposed "proper grown-ups" that can handle serious, responsible careers as 'societal parental' figures (i.e. mum and dad to everyday parents and their kids), married for decades,...needing the woman's own sister to be sat beside them, supervising negotiations over their marital battle. I'm really quite surprised that your dad has been allowing this. In fact, surprised at your mum, too, that she'd *want* her sister sharing what actually underneath it all is an intimate act. ...And your auntie, come to think of it. But obviously you let them off when you remember that these guys have never been close or attentive enough to have a serious fight before so haven't a clue how to keep their cool and cylinders running, *and*, the behaviour shows, are too PETRIFIED to leave it up to themselves alone! Think about it - they'd rather have their sister/sister-in-law present (ew!) than take the chance to conduct the meeting just the two of them. So that's a hugely positive sign yet again because it means - this - not letting things get to the Big D - is too important to both of them...shows how much they care (and how panicked)... about each other and their relationship, you guys, their family unit...life as they know it and want to continue knowing, basically. I imagine all three of them are really going to feel quite embarrassed for a while, right after this has newly blown over. But all three will be tighter (up-side again), that's for sure. Yeah,...no...yeah... You can't order your average man around and expect him to get on with the decision process the minute you leave. First he has to get over the insult of being told what to do/not to do. Patience, grasshopper, LOL. Could take up to a couple of weeks. But this would be THE prime moment for you to remind him how crucial to your futures he is. Because then he could present it to your mum, sooner, as a half backing down, with the other half being '...and because Lily made me see how much she and the other two need me as their ever-present father'. Er...Wait up... How come you spoke to him, regardless of your mum having asked you not to? Well anyway, to the reasons... 1. "it's also at senior consultant level and he gets to work in what he specialises in, in a private hospital -nicer environment, apparently" Those are three reasons, actually. All salient and valid... doesn't even need any other reasons (but - very interestingly - I can see you've got more than one bullet point so...) 2. "He can stay with his 'friend' in the week and not have to live in a hotel." EH?!?!!!! Right! Have I or have I not just this minute [sorry, am taking it line by line and thinking out-loud again] indicated he didn't need any other reasons if those above ones were true? THINK ABOUT IT! Did he have the temerity to tell your mum this? I mean, even IF they're just platonic friends - AT THE MOMENT - I gather she's definitely single? Right. Hasn't cheated but isn't exactly against welcoming the ideal recipe to something on the side starting! 'Seemingly/on the surface', I should add. Okay, you think he hasn't told her. Do you tell her? Oh, god. Even I don't know what you should do here...it's one of those grey areas. The social code of etiquette would say no, absolutely not (in which case you'd have to keep it a secret for the rest of your mum's life so as not to attract any resentment from her (they always say they'd have preferred to have been told important information they were ignorant of at the time but whenever people DO tell them right at that moment, they don't like it......well, half of them, depends on the individual and how fair-minded they are, and you can't know that because you've never sampled your mum that way before). The moral code says, absolutely yes! Let's contextualise it to find our answer: - Your parents *on the surface (appearances)* kept you three out of it, but REALLY, in terms of "oopsie-daisies", they did a fine job of both dragging and tempting you all in. And Auntie. So apparently it's group property. - It's group property anyway, morally (you have a right to know, your younger sibs especially, since Home as they always knew it is still maximally important at their ages). And apparently group property enough to have a third party relative *directly, almost fully* involved (whilst this affects you three FAR more than even she who doesn't live in the same house as them or directly share their lives, unlike you guys). - He might just be intent on hurting her (through you)...doing that 'making you the backroom messenger' subc. manipulation tactic attempt of his again. Either your dad is completely thick (and self-destruction-wise suicidal) where relationship mechanics are concerned *or* she's neither begging him to stay sufficiently nor the way he wants her to, meaning, he's taunting her (through you, he hopes) with even MORE reason to demonstrate her objection (and reasons for it)...cranking it up, in other words. It bears all the characteristic hallmarks of male-with-shrivelled-ego manipulation... because, think about it, he hasn't committed adultery, he isn't even giving anyone any concrete reason to suspect he would... he's just basically beginning to cock his pistol and make shooting motions at the cute puppy. He's trying to squeeze a bigger, better reaction out of your mum before he'll do what he was going to do all along, which is EVENTUALLY BACK DOWN! Yep, that's what he's doing. He can't be practise manager *and* that thick, even if this is about the emotional intelligence domain. Not possible. He will back down if she switches from 'mummy/matron displeased with naughty boy / employer disgusted with employee' stylee to woman in love (= pride can take a hike!), i.e. wailing, 'I love you, I NEED you, I can't live without you, PLEEEEASE don't take this job, PLEEEASE!'. Yep, it's like I suspected: mum's been growing despondent and disinterested with dad over recent years (that'll no doubt be the THREE FULL-TIME JOBS!) and this is his way of trying to CRANK her back up to purring mode rather than re-woo her there. Bloody knew it. Didn't I bloody know it? (*sigh*) Now I *actually* know it (if you know what I'm prattling about). The only thing she can do is, precisely what she's just done (although it's a shame she couldn't have slid in a BIT of romantic, needy heroine, in terms of just the ultimatum's style of delivery, to keep his ego monster more fed than starving). Because her providing the latter tack he's after would mean her PANDERING to being emotionally, coercively manipulated. If she pandered once, then, any time in the future he wanted more reassurance about her strength of feelings or to get his unfair way over something, out would come the loaded gun yet again. This is definitely Poker. Your mum has to feel okay about the idea of ending this marriage in order *not* to end up losing it. Otherwise, the ultimatum won't ring true, her fear will leak out in her behaviour/tone somehow. Did you get the impression she'd been very cool, calm, collected but very, very firm and (how shall I put it), QUEENLY, yet at the same time making it CLEAR how much she loves and needs him? Or was her voice trembling/eyes tearing as she said it, etc., etc., in such a way as overly fearful and dreading losing him? No, DO NOT tell her about the "sleepovers", it's not real. I repeat - if it IS real, this stupid 'proposal' about sleepovers with this single "friend" is just plain suicide on his part to point of his literally being dumb- let's just say it: retarded. Which he is not. Nah, he's just acting up and out, majorly. OMG, he must be LOVING the fact that even Auntie's been suckered in! However, even so, he really is just making everything worse and worse and needlessly harder and harder for even when this becomes all sorted out, isn't he. I mean, vis-a-vis what I said up there about "that was then" - talk about shooting himself - albeit just from very long-range - in the foot (or face, even)? Or is he thinking he'll have the opportunity, one night all re-snuggled in bed, to confess, 'Nah, I didn't mean that bit, course I didn't, I was just talking angry ollocks and at that point in the proceedings still felt like wanting to hurt you'? But here's what I'd have done (albeit your mum isn't me, she's clearly a bit gullible and over-trusting): the minute he showed he was still even considering the idea, I'd have said, 'Then get yourself a solicitor and - as husband and wife - I'll see you in the next life (if you're lucky)'. I will *not* be emotionally played, least of all by a so-called spouse, not for one minute. The emotionally playing - for SELFISH reasons or even just using a selfish and cruel method - would itself be my deal-breaker (you do NOT dangle baby over the balcony - tight grip plus Superglue plus 3 harnesses or not!). Hence, just still at this point, actually, seriously - OR NOT SERIOUSLY - *considering* a move that was basically a with-approval semi-divorce, i.e. where he gets to stay familied and married yet with a new romance on the side or single lifestyle during the weekdays, etc., - never MIND whether it's a cruel ruse or not - would, I repeat, be an instant deal-breaker for me. (Oh, aye - Mr Soulmate does *not* have a slacker's time of it, no way, Jose!) I wouldn't mess around, giving chances that a grown man didn't even need (as if we all believed he was really just 5). I really don't believe for a second that he seriously wants this job, other than a sneaky tool for squeezing greater love juice out of your mum (enough to stop him), because - notice, he seems to be doing absolutely everything he can to make her say, 'NO, NO, AND A THOUSAND TIMES NEVER!', rather than agree. Or even consider it seriously. Think about it. May as well ask her, 'Can I slice your t*ts off?...and then toast them under the grill?' / 'Oh, yah, sure!' (not). Can you see what I'm saying, Lily? HE CANNOT BE THAT INCREDIBLY THICK OR THAT INCREDIBLY CLUELESS ABOUT HOW TO SUGAR-COAT A PROPOSAL! The more badly he wanted it, the more sugar loading he'd give it - to *ensure* a Yes! He does not want it, he just (pff - just) wants to see your mum fight tooth and nail to stop him. *IF* she doesn't (as in, she who cares as much as "ought", wails loudest), THEN he might consider whether he has a marriage worth staying in or staying faithful in. Or not. He more than (highly) likely hasn't even thought that far ahead! 3. Oh, lookie - he's testing YOU, now! (- course - first-born). "Me as your dad or me as your Daddy Warbucks/walking wallet, Lily - which side do you actually, genuinely love the most?". Tsk. 4. STOP PRESS! "I get scared just asking him for like a fiver coz he questions me what I need it for. " Oh, does he, indeed. How very revealing! Your dad's acting like a Grade A coward with serious trust issues, Lily. Sorry. He believes even his own daughter might try to take advantage by asking for money under the guise of genuinely needing something when 'actually' merely wanting to live it up needlessly at his expense. (Not that a mere Fiver equals living it up, but you get my gist.) Tsk. I don't know what to say to you, your dad is behaving like a teenager. If that! BUT! Has he got a point??? Looking back, DO you think you guys have been making him feel taken for granted and unappreciated - hand on heart? RSvP. Not that I'm condoning his methodology, but - ? Oh, lookie again: "He finished off with 'I hardly see you in The week anyway and really only spend time with you at weekends so it's not going to be that different'. nice." No, no, no, Lily, you've got it wrong - it's not an insult from him to you, it's him putting an insult from *you to him*, putting words in your mouth: 'You're not interested in me any more, either, mew-mew, so what would YOU care if you didn't see during the week, hmph! Deeper translation: "NOBODY LOVES MEEEEEE, SOB, SNIFFLE, PARP!' Oh, good grief - someone massage his ego and make it snappy. :-p Start your side of the process of giving the fool what he so badly wants and needs so that he won't keep trying to force it out of you all with his giant size 19 hands. (I hope to god he's not an eye or vein surgeon, Christ!) LEAVE THE DOCUMENTS, LILY. GO, GO, GO! ...But back to the nitty-gritty (because you clearly are misunderstanding a lot in terms of where he was secretly coming from and madly hinting about): "Anyways he got really angry and told me to butt out and that he wasn't going to be dictated to by an 18 year old" Bit late to say that, eh, GIANT NOTE! May as well insist the waiter take back your meal for being inedible only once you've eaten the last-but-one morsel! *Lie Alert*. So it's another test. "NOOOO, DADDYYYY, I LOVE AND NEED YOU TOO MUCH TO BUTT OUT. AS YOU CAN QUITE PLAINLY SEE, I WOULD RATHER BE SUBJECTED TO YOUR ANGER FOR A SHORT WHILE THAN EVER LET YOU LEAVE US!". Good grief again. SO CHILDISH. So self-pitying. What's wrong with, 'Can I call a family meeting?.........Well, I hate to say this, everyone, and I don't know whether you're aware of how your behaviour's been affecting me lately, but...I'm feeling very unwanted and underappreciated by you four because [etc].....and I would like this to stop because it's making me feel somewhat worthless'???. How negative. How pessimistic. How cowardly/over-guarded and self-protective. In fact, I don't even feel even the slightest satisfaction over the fact you've basically confirmed everything I said I suspected was going on and why. I'm just really disappointed for you because this has GOT to be making you lose a heck of a lot of respect for your dad as a so-called mature, capable, clever, in-control, ADMIRABLE adult man - right? Talk about, baptism of fire for you re. the childishness of some so-called adults dawning on you. Sorry, Lils. I apologise profusely on behalf of today's society as a whole for your parents and your dad especially. :-( Let's just hope he thus she regain their senses sooner rather than later, hey. There again - Trump managed to get in so, nuff bloomin' said. Well, anyway. It is, still, just a fight caused by battle of wills caused by resentfulness (dad's) - cause: huge attention-seeking (or recouping I should say) on his part. The underlying action-message, I think, is, dad feels you lot - mum included - EMOTIONALLY have half-left him lately (and he's been bored, effectively all by himself, just working, sleeping, working, sleeping) hence his thinking (under the influence of the drug called, Pity Party) is, 'Well, if they're going to half-leave me then I don't see why I should sit here and take it rather than half-leave them back...or pretend and threaten to, anyway'. Possibly his parents were neglectful ("Not now, Bernard"). It took this kind of little production - him having to go to extreme - for them to suddenly sit up and take notice (or we hope that's why he did it). And now that he's felt cause to start curling back up in the foetal position, he's bringing in the, what he once *thought* was the old, obsolete, nest-only script that goes with it. "No-body likes me Every-body hates me Gonna-go-an' eat-some worms..." (do you know the rhyme?) Well, I guess your mum can start reminding him more lavishly how much she still rates and loves him *after* he's agreed to drop this silly blackmail attempt; for now, he'll have to remember to note the actions. That's definitely all it is. He's being far too transparent (to me and anyone else who can see through the silly drama parts). ******** Back to you: No, it's GOOD that you argued for 20 minutes and equally good that he saw you get upset. He's not stupid, he'll know you're speaking for your mum and co. as much as yourself so it's wot da wickle bubbie needed to hear. So you've done your mum a favour, really. But I repeat, do not mention the sleepover so-called idea/intention to her or Auntie because it's just him pushing her buttons harder/further due to the fact she's not gone as far as fall at his feet in tears in front of him (yawn). OH, YOU DID PLANT THE DOCUMENTS ALREADY - EXCELLENT, WELL DONE! :-) I doubt he'll notice them on his own ("where are my socks?" - you know what they're like), but - fair enough - wait until you can bear to speak to him. Or send a succinct email/text asking after them? 'Sorry to bother you, but, I think I left some important paperwork...?'. That way, you don't have to actually chat and can keep it to business only. Imagine being your dad, feeling like "nobody loves mee, boo-boo" but then, following 20 minutes desperate and exasperated plea-ing, he then snoops in the envelope and gets the surprise of his life! "OH, they DO care!", he's going to think.... major egg on face. And you do (tsk, course...but he clearly doesn't believe it). Because even though the documentation was my idea, you COULD have come back with, 'Nah...can't be a*sed, Soulmate', couldn't you. So there you go. He finds proof of you having gone to more effort than he ever imagined you would, and.... ego whatever percentage fed, he's then far less difficult to reason with when next your mum has to talk to him. *********** And lastly but definitely NOT leastly: "Nice thing about Tom is, after the initial 'sh******t, can't believe I just did that!' He didn't get stressy or moody and he just sorted it out (tick). Did kinda feel like everything was against us but oh well." No, lass. You ain't going nearly deep or meaningful enough. The "nice" thing about Tom IN actual fact, is that, when he can see you're already in the midst of going through a very stressy and upsetting/disrupting time, HE (happily, voluntarily) WALKS ON EGGSHELLS AROUND YOU AND IS EXTRA NICE! (SUPER-TICK!) Your boyfriend - despite is still only human and given to the *occasional* ball-drop/slip-up - is - compared to- well, certainly men of your dad's generation and above - an absolute 24-carat diamond!!!!! GOOD. Because I would hate for a likewise 24-carat diamond such as yourself to be paired with anything less. And I mean that 100% sincerely, modom. As I told Richard on't phone the other day, I have never been as all-round impressed with a 'mere' (sorry - you know what I mean) 18-year-old as I have since I first 'heard you talking' in your opening post. You astound me, young lady, you really do, and it's been an absolute pleasure to play your hand-holder stroke supervisor in all this. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable, but - tough! LOL Be very proud, be very AWARE - that that makes you quite rare and exceptional in today's world! - and remember that not everyone will always be as strong, dependable, straight as a die, all-round mentally hard-working "good egg" as you and your counterpart, Tom. Take this tip going forward in life: If they're not, and are in a bad way because of it, offer/respond with an arm to help them up and out. If they take it to pull themselves out of their muddy little pit - great. If, on the other hand, what they do is try to pull you IN AND DOWN *WITH THEM* (as in, misery loves company as an excuse to avoid doing the mental chore of self-helping), LET GO IMMEDIATELY AND WALK AWAY and remind your overactive conscience that you tried your best when trying simply wasn't wanted in the first place. You can't be one of a helping team if the other member, the one in trouble, isn't interested in being helped or cooperating with their 'rescuer', can you. Half of something never achieved a whole of something in the entire history of the universe. Plus your energy is precious *and finite*. Trust me, it'll keep your face wrinkle-free and your hair Grey-free later in life when all your friends are shrivelling and wizend-ing up seemingly in front of you. You'll win Glamorous Granny competitions and still be able to touch your toes! That's how it works. Oh, and - keep it up! :-) Don't let anyone ever tell you your standards are too high. If anyone tries, suggest you quietly and gently say - The fact you think my perfectly achievable standards (because I've myself my entire life been consistently achieving them) are "too high" tells me that yours are my idea of TOO LOW, in which case, let's NOT you and I ever get married, then! (which is funnier if they're female). ....................What was the question again? :-D PS: Feel free to (all your own idea) mention in passing to mum - or, possibly better yet, Auntie - that you think dad deep down is just talking a load of attention-recouping b*llocks because he lately feels ignored and redundant, won't you. If you want to, obvs. If not, don't. I mean, I expect you're sick and disgusted to the back teeth with it all by now, yes?, and that'd be perfectly understandable. Let's just sum it up by saying, You just do what you feel is right and double-check with me if you want. Because your instincts have consistently proven to be BANG-ON where it matters, better than most grown women's! *I'd* certainly lend you a fiver no-questions-asked, that's for sure...following which, I wouldn't be at all surprised if you came back later having somehow turned it into £50! And insisting I take £25 rather than just the original £5. (Poor "unloved" dad, eh? Suppose you've got to feel sorry for the silly ugger.) PPS: Mr Soulmate returns home tomorrow and has made a big point of booking 'Two Bugs In A Rug' Time, so I'm just forewarning you I won't be able to post on top of just patrolling the streets with my trusty paddle (;-))for the next two or three days, okay?

Ok :-D Thank you, no ones said that before! :-) I'm not aware really, just thought I had quite a lot of common sense. I think i would of gone crazy if this website didn't exist and its probably saved my parents a lot of money in counselling coz I'm guessing thats what I would of ended up needing. I liked the tip too, will remember that one! After my dad told me to 'butt out', I did start to wonder why I cared/bothered so much. yep, I am really, really bored of whats going on but since they are both being a bit 'special' and haven't been straight with us, I can't help it, I'm gonna do what I can, then at least I know I have done something. My aunt has told me it was really weird but holding my mums hand but it was the only way of getting to to talk to my dad. She said it felt like they were five and ten years old again not grown adults. But once there, I reckon my mum was a bit of an ice queen and teacher-ish with him, which he probably didn't like. I talked to my dad on Tuesday coz he said to me 'I guess your mum has told you she and (auntie) came to see me over the weekend, which is why your here'. Main reason was to hide the articles and was trying to decide if I should say anything but he did instead. (Only asked him to look for them today!). And this weekend bro and sis have also been showing my dad they're really unhappy, with what's going on. I haven't said anything else to him, been sitting back and I'm letting them have a go. sis is saying more ' please don't take a job that's far away, I'll miss you', more of a daddy's girl (things my mum should be saying!), and bro is er, more blunt, which doesn't help coz it gets him in trouble. My dads giving them some reasons he gave me - not all of them, obvs and I'm sure from some of the looks he been giving me, he thinks I've encouraged them, which I haven't! Yep I do see what you're saying - he's attention seeking and when one threat doesn't work, he looks for the next biggest thing to try get a reaction coz he wants to know we care, mainly my mum? :D I did tell my mum I think he's attention seeking big time, and just left that with her to think about it. I don't think he's told my mum he plans to stay with what's-her-face/ friend, and if she does know, I don't think she would tell me but I won't say anything. Feels like it would get too messy. Money thing - Ugh, there are quite a few girls and some boys too in my year at school who go shopping with like a sh*t load mummy or daddys money (no doubt their credit cards) and are really spoilt. It annoys me just listening to them brag to each other. don't like it/want to be like that ever...So my dad has it easy! Buuuuuuuuut....Maybe we all have taken him for granted, sometimes without realising, thinking about it. More taking less giving back from us all. My sis has somehow always managed to have him wrapped around her little finger, how, I don't know. bro ...he's prob not been the easiest person to bring up (?). He used to love planning family days out but that stopped prob coz i wanted to hang out with friends more. He did actually like to have family meetings, (stopped too) if he wanted to bring something up or moan about something and we all used to roll our eyes and be like 'what now!?'. Not very patient. Those could be reasons (oops). Maybe I should ask him? I feel sorry for him but yeah I have lost some respect and don't think I trust either of them as much I did.

1. Your ahead-of-years commonsense is but one symptom of it. I doubt you would have needed to 'network up' with anyone else's 'biological computer', actually. You might have been *slower* at cottoning on to everything, but it would have been the normal rate for your age- or should I say, capabilities. I and Tom and Auntie have done nothing but help you process it all faster. I just tell it like it is, me. But you're welcome. :-) 2. 'Special' as in licky-white-minibus-windows-"num-num!" special - yeah. LOL Adult, Jim, but not as we know it. 3. "I reckon my mum was a bit of an ice queen and teacher-ish with him, which he probably didn't like." That's tone. I was more interested in CONTENT, not firm, dispassionate or even icy, mere style of delivery. So did she also "firmly" say something like, 'You know I have always loved you and always will BUT that doesn't mean (etc)'? 4. LET him think that. He'll realise soon enough that he's WRONG, won't he (because they're not idiots who can't work things out without your feeding the answers to them). 5. Mainly your mum, yes, because she's the one he feels has 'gone off him' and maybe inadvertently set the tone and pattern of late. 6. "I did tell my mum I think he's attention seeking big time, and just left that with her to think about it." Nice one! Hopefully that new light will clarify and simplify things for her if she 'replays all the tapes' under it (which she will). 7. Again, the sleepovers bit can't be true or else he'd have mentioned it, before now, directly to her...which would make it undeniable. Not so if it comes via you, as in, "Aw, tsk, she got the completely wrong end of the stick!". But that enlightenment would stay under-table for quite a while before it had to be released, leaving ample time for the idea to first work its strong-arm-ing, upped ante magic. 8. "So my dad has it easy!" There again - so do you. It's BECAUSE these kids have little else demonstration of what they should be getting to rely on that they take the only other thing seemingly going (guilt money) and then get into that habit of equating 'money given is equal to love felt'. Poor them. Who told them they couldn't have BOTH? They then crow about it TO CONVINCE THEMSELVES it's a valid, decent substitution. The more people go, 'Oooh, your dad must really love you', even by implication or inference, the more they too can push aside their doubts and maintain the delusion. Yet note they're not stood there crowing that their dad took them out for the day or whatever else that takes more time and effort than getting their wallet out? Possibly it's *not* a delusion and *is* a substitution. But it's not the standard, healthy mode of feelings demonstration, is it (ergo, what would these people do if material things ceased to exist - give nothing *and* say nothing?). Plus, the trouble is, actions are limited in terms of all we wish to communicate/convey by them....we've outgrown them, really. This makes them open to more than one interpretation. After all, 'Here, take my credit card and buy summat nice, luv!' could mean 'because I love you and love spoiling you' or 'this should shut you up and keep you off my back for longer'. That's why we developed speech, to CLARIFY and leave zero uncertainty over what the act specifically means or is geared towards. That way, the person knows where they stand. And only when you know where you currently or always stand can you know in which direction to move next in order to fortify and/or build on that relationship. 'This should shut you up' is hardly encouragement to take the next step in the relationship, is it. So we EXPLAIN what our action means within roughly the same timeframe as we deal it. If you "say it with flowers" *and* say it with your mouth (or supplementary actions that can't be interpreted any other way, like a long, heartfelt cuddle and kiss), you've delivered the entire coin, rather than just a room-for-doubt half of it. But I digress again. 9. Here it is - the biggie: I knew there'd be a 'but'. Lil sis has him wrapped round her little finger precisely *because* she unabashedly says sincere, heartfelt, "embarrassing/babyish" (they're not, actually) things like you've just quoted at me. GIVEN that it turns out his reactive behaviour right now has valid basis, rather than just being a case of spoiled, constant attention-seeker gratuitously acting up, I suggest you all make him a homemade card - *each* - to show your appreciation but, given the present context and the cards' timing, basically say, 'NOOOO, DON'T! - EVER!'. It'll take an awful lot of resentful wind out of his sails. In fact, you never know... especially since he'll probably, logically suspect that your mum put you all up to it. ;-) Or auntie (same token, considering she's mum advocate). No, don't 'ask him'. Too embarrassing from his present position. Plus, you don't NEED to ask him, now, do you - just re-read that paragraph of yours and do the no-brainer maths. You've planted the insights seed in mum's head.....meanwhile (cards) you've planted the dad-softening seed up. And then ("bubble, bubble, toil and trouble") just wait and watch for those two improved mental states to inevitably meet. :-) And yet, what have you actually done, other than, just what kids naturally tend to do in these situations? [ting!, halo] Again, you're *not* ideally supposed to get involved with giving leg-ups. But when both parties are acting like MIDGETS...LEGLESS ones at that! - the rules change. Particularly when - despite the protests with their mere mouths - you've seen both parties holding up neon signs that read, 'INPUT, INPUT, GIMMIE INPUT, HEELP!'. I mean, as but one, tiny example - what happened to his 'butt out' all of a sudden? What happened to any of the other available options, including (inconsiderate or not), 'I'll explain what's what to you kids when I or I and your mother are ready to and not a moment beforehand'? I rest me case, which - in light of the fact verbal communication is puny compared to all other media, behavioural especially - I repeat, is, they've been non-stop asking for it. I think that, and your ages, make it okay and make it even more of a family matter than ever. But in fact, the FACT they didn't inform you kids properly is yet another huge clue about how 'storm in teacup' this really is. No forethought thus no preparation. 10. Family meetings. OH, REALLY. I like that (TICK!). Good sign of emotional health (in situation normal, obviously) and highly **indicative of his character, not just for how 'above table' it is. So there's another reassurance-type reminder you could bring back: Dad, can we have a family meeting? And also just more in favour of the 'storm in teacup' assertion. I mean, if ever there were a topic for calling a family meeting, surely he and your mum (allegedly) deciding to separate was it? (GOTCHA! Number...how many is it now?) "I feel sorry for him but yeah I have lost some respect and don't think I trust either of them as much I did." I wouldn't worry about it, it would have happened anyway (umbilicus lengthening process). Destination pre-determined, particular route itself variable. **But now I appreciate why your dad and auntie get on so well and why he didn't tell *her* to "butt out". Apparently, she ain't the only secret hippy "inn thuh vill-edge". And - ha-ha - your mum obviously rates her sister because - she married 'her', look! It's all good. These suggestions of mine are just about speeding the inevitable up, as well.

(happy) There is good news. My dad has finally started to see some sense! He also had a decision to make as well. He was meant to go the hospital today for a meeting but he didn't go :), he told me last night he wasn't going. I had been anxious about today incase he did go and came back and told us he accepted a job, which I knew it would of made things a million times worse. I wasn't too sure what to do or how to handle it. I was soooo relieved! He was going to go (so he says) but he said he wanted to talk to my mum before he went and they met up after work on tues and talked about it. No idea what was said but he clearly wasn't able to do any persuading or get my mum be 'ok' with it and in the end decided not to go. Also he would of come back home to quite a few pi*sed off people, which maybe put him off. Apparently he's disappointed - gonna have to get over it. I don't think that will take long. I'm also taking them meeting up as a good sign too, since last time my mum needed my aunt there and that was what, like only a week or so ago! My mum is saying she still furious with him for putting her/us through this and she working on him to go to counselling with her but he's still being really stubborn with this :-/. But yeah think everything is paying off, all is deffinately good :-D . He found the articles, got him hunting for them and no suprise said he read them too! guessing the homemade cards thing is still a good idea to do? Ugh, My sis will be in her element, bro likes being arty too, it's more me :-/.

Well, it was inevitable he'd have to climb down from his Silly Tree at some point, eh. But, yep - EXCELLENT news! Did he tell you after having already told mum or before? It wouldn't have just made things worse, it would have been the final straw and all prior straws in one fell swoop. AND he knew it. So I agree with your "(so he says)", still can't help suspecting this meeting was however much bluff (possibly entirely) because, again, I've seen that kind of crap played on wives once too often. And, of course, said 'amateur players' are always the ones that, seemingly against all signs and logic, refuse to admit that it warrants a course of counselling (again, that way lies bluff- or complete exaggeration-exposure). I imagine that's why he basically asked your mum for a refreshed No, so that he then would 'have to cancel' the meeting because of her, not because he just decided off his own bat on the day (...and that way, he can always in future turn around and say, 'How can you say that - don't forget I turned down an amazing opportunity for you!'). That, and getting to hear yet another 'Nooo, don't leave me!', no matter how checked and measured (or even coolly clipped) her actual version sounded at the time. You never know... this female friend might merely have been sympathetic to his plight (whinging) and passing on something she'd learned or had had tried on her that had worked (- although, I'd hope not or that would make her a giant mercenary, not to mention hypocrite...you don't pass on tips of how to, mildly or not/well-intentioned or not, bully, do you). Agree all the other signs are undeniably, distinctly and significantly positive as well. :-) Now all we're waiting for is for mum to follow suit and come down, since you've already basically said how she's the really stubborn one (grudge-holder?). Don't lay back, all relieved, just yet, though, or you'll be starting the whole 'mother ship' off again; blow the damn thing to smithereens while 'the iron is hot'. *Maintain* (you and the sibs) the standard-appropriate dad attention-giving level (which can mean just concertedly making time from now on to chat to him about your own personal lives, thoughts and feelings, rather than automatically s*dding-off to your rooms and gadgets). I would have thought a card from all three of you (jointly this time) were even more befitting now that he's (cough!) elected to turn the job down - to say how overjoyed and relieved each of you are and congratulate him on his sensible end decision. Put it this way (side bonus): if there were any part of him still intending to later resurrect the idea, you three saying 'hurrah, you're staying!' would definitely put paid to that. Yes, it's emotional blackmail but, *sometimes* fire can only be fought by return fire. Impact-wise, three cards versus one 'giant' card is much of a muchness, *apart* from the important fact of the latter subliminally driving home the concept of *Unity*. I'm not surprised your mum still wants counselling (despite it's not ACTUALLY needed - he'll have learnt his lesson by now) because, to her thinking - irrespective of what it was over, specifically, or where it was, the fact remains that he tried to seriously rock (or make out he was rocking) - to point of almost overturning - the love & family boat, as begs the question, 'who in his position would choose that ridiculous method, and why?'. Insecure-male attention-seeking - horribly negative if positive isn't on offer (or feels too 'embarrassing and humiliating' to ask nicely for), and completely overdone with their Size 9 lumps of ham (otherwise known as hands) - isn't exactly anything to write home about, too many of them try it at some point...most more than the once. Maybe repeat in passing the 'just fishing for attention and a sense of being appreciated' comment when you next speak to mum? (People who are DefCon-ed tend to be too much inside their heads to properly hear or grasp first-time round, you have to keep repeating yourself (or slap their faces with a wet fish as you say it) to get through the anxiety and panic to their actual brains.) ******* He actually *told* you he'd read them? Ha-ha, talk about strange mixture between overly open and honest and furtive and game-playing! I'm now wondering whether he got the whole charade idea from someone (female friend) or some-THING else (online 'how to treat her mean to make her keen' article of the chicken or misandrist variety?), HMMMMM... something he obviously considered well worth a try (given that the advice obviously failed to forewarn about the backfiring/aftermath bit (gosh, how very queer for 'misery loves company' merchants...not)). Well, GOOD, because the so-called advice will have been revealed as pretty worthless by now. So, tell me... when he told you he'd read your print-outs, did you get the impression he'd seen right through the deliberateness of the tactic (albeit, equally appreciable of the sincere and perfectly laudable reasons) to lead him into snooping/reading, or did he appear to believe it were all down to his having naughtily helped himself to something that hadn't ever been intended for his eyes? Ironic, isn't it, Lily, to realise that THE most easily-manipulated people on the planet are the original Machievellis themselves, the Narcissists (which your dad isn't, but the ploy definitely was one from that cess-pit). Whatever they try on you, they try because they *know* it's something that'd would work or hurt if done on them (as, indeed, it once will have been - hence why they're in that fixed-attitudinal mess). What I hope this exercise has taught you is that manipulation itself is *not* a bad thing, any more than guns, *if* purely used for good and healthy intentions. Only ever manipulate for an 'everyone's a winner' reason and you can't go wrong. Try to do it out of self-serving selfishness and - whatever you send out through another will - *will* - come back like a boomerang on you (when, not if). So it's best to throw out sugar and spice and all things nice, eh! ******* Get sis and bro to help you design your card or your input into a joint card (- I really do recommend the latter, however). A lot older or not, you can't be naturally superior to them in *all* things, now, can you; that would make you literally Superwoman. Plus, just as parents are supposed to learn things via their kids that they didn't learn or take enough notice of or get put properly in context first time round, same principle goes for elder daughters/sons and their younger irritants-I mean siblings (phew!, that was close, LOL). I mean, everyone should know how to make a homemade card (you never know when you might need that really personal and impactful (more to the point, compensatory) touch...e.g. Tom!). So you missed a skill first time round, didn't you, Ms I Love Homework. Yet (lucky you) here's your opportunity to add that ability to your personal, life (i.e. other people) skills toolbelt. Plus it'll inspire your sibs to cease feeling so helpless or one-way dependent on you. After all, come the day when it's just the three of you, what you *don't* want (*really* don't want!) is two other adults who constantly lean on and come to *you* for help and hand-outs but haven't a clue how to return the favour when, for once, it's you that's the one desperate for support and advice. If you have two (in that context) chocolate teapots for confidante-supporters, you could end up feeling *very* abandoned, alone and lonely, not to mention resentful and bitter (albeit, that's where lovers and firm friends come in...god's apologetic compensation for family, LOL). Imagine how special and effectual those two saplings are going to feel if you say, 'Right, then, Manet and Monet, how do we do this - show me this magical, mystical sorcery of yours!'. Gotta get your longer-range 'reap-what-you-sow' glasses on, Lils, because the so-called far-off future isn't nearly as far off as we imagine when we're at your age ...largely because as soon as you hit roughly 22-25, the years start - imperceptibly at first but then altogether *too* perceptibly - speeding by, faster and faster ("Whaaat - we've only just HAD Christmas, haven't we?!"). And as, in one way, perception *is* reality - OLLOCKS to '80 years average lifespan'. It's 20-odd years followed by another 20-odd of half-years followed by another 10 of third-years followed by...you get the gist. Total yearage in terms of time-perception: probably no more than 50 (if you're lucky). ...And you've already spent 18 of them. YES. PRECISELY. People don't tell you that. Well, they *think* they do....come out with passing comments, usually, like, 'Ooh, it's all downhill after you hit 30/40, ya know?', typically with a face-saving chuckle at the end, when what they *should* be doing is grabbing you by lapels and screaming their warning in your face until you really, truly get it and start living your life (and reaping) accordingly. I hate raising my voice so here's an exercise I always give as an equivalent to said screamed warning: Go stand beside a ticking clock or put your watch right up to your ear (yes, that's right - right now, this very second). Close your eyes and listen to the tick-tick-tick.... Now imagine you're an ice-lolly suspended over a bucket. And instead of ticks, hear DRIPS....You, your definitive life force, melting, second-by-second....minute-by-minute, hour-by-hour, daily, weekly, monthly, YEARLY...until you're nothing but bare stick, no life-force left (and re-named Twiggy, LOL). Have you done it? Brings it home to you, doesn't it? If not, you're officially insane, LOL. (Am thinking you're mature enough and plugged-in to reality enough that that doesn't cause you nightmares (gulp!), but I feel pretty damned confident that it won't and will just get you taking it as inspiration where concerns appreciating the true shortness of your visit on this planet that bit extra.) Anyway - back to your dear ol' dad. You imagine how you'd feel if YOU were the one having 'threatened' to move away and, having eventually backed down due to the pressuring, got a card from your parents and your two siblings saying 'hurrah!' and 'thank uck!'. You imagine how loved, wanted and appreciated and downright important to them you'd feel....every single time you got it out and looked at it (which you would...you don't throw something like that away - ever). It would remind him that the carrot is far more powerful than the stick. It would remind him to put entertaining such stupid, self-pitying thoughts in the bin, permanently. So it's not just 'a card', is it. It's a lifelong, instantly accessible antidote to *any* such future 'illness' or relapse. Anti-repeat-manipulation aid. The difference between having been out-manoeuvred for the sake of you four alone versus having been out-manoeuvred for - immediately *and* ultimately - his own good and you four as an important byproduct. Like I said before, nobody but nobody has any problem with at whatever point having it dawn on them that they'd been played, solely or moreover, into a much better, happier place. So in a year or so, you'll have great fun revealing to your dad what you did and why...and will probably get a grateful and impressed hug instead of a lecture. Maybe leave a gap in the centre of the card front and offer it to your mum to fill in, see if it'll prompt her to try to see things a bit more from his point of view, typically male kack-handed method notwithstanding. That would shut 'im happily up, forever, that would, ....the silly tart, LOL. Nah, but seriously, there's nothing worse than feeling like your own family see you as nothing more than a spare part come skivvy. (...in which case - Wrong remedy, valid problem.) (...A senior GP, you say? LOL) (ha-ha, kick me later!). (PS: sorry, but I've finally got to say this because it's a too-common mistake these days which consistently gets my anal goat in a complete lather: it's 'would HAVE', not 'of'. Well, you did say you like homework did you not, LOL. Again, kick me later. ;-)) Shame you won't be able to show me the card, I'd like to see that. You'll just have to describe it for me, if poss. PS: afore I forget: the more childlike it is, the better, so don't worry about amateurish-ness. Paw-marks, smudges, glitter (lots of glitter).... *all the more cute*....get him thinking, 'they're still secretly/underneath it all just my babies, look!, ahhhh, bless'. Remember, you heard the truth in amongst all that drivel, from the horse's own mouth: Well, you (cough - YOU) don't really see me much these days, anyway, do you (meh!). Under all that bravado, men are such sensitive little souls, aren't they? Who told them they couldn't be all impressively mighty and scary *and* gentle, sensitive and delicate at the same time? As a newly grown woman and romantic partner yourself, you'll already appreciate how a man having enough of *both* is what makes a guy the most irresistibly attractive, impressive and sexy. Hence the bestseller, L'Enfant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L'Enfant_(poster) "In a 2004 British television documentary about L'Enfant, The Model, the Poster and 3,000 Women, [model, Adam] Perry claimed that as a result of his poster fame he had slept with 3,000 women. THREE......................*THOOOOOOOOOOOOUSAND*. I rest me open-'n-shut case. So.....yeah......anywayyyy.......What was the question again? :-D

My dad told me after he talked my mum, I think he kinda realised he wasn't actually going to go but he just wanted to give it one last try before giving up his act! Nope, not going to sit back and relax, I don't trust them enough just yet! I know it could just take an argument or for one of them to do or say something or for my dad to start resenting my mum for not letting him take the job, which would set them back. Still got my eye on them! But they have been talking a lot since and have been meeting up a couple of time after work again this week to talk apparently. I think my dad has still got a long way to go coz I don't think my mum is going forget this for a long time...yeah she likes to hold a grudge and now I don't think she's afraid to question him or confront him on this anymore. I have repeated the attention seeking thing again to her and I think she's starting to realise. I'm really pleased/bit excited with this >They are going out this weekend, like a date innit? :-D. They've asked me to keep an eye on the sibs and entertain them in some way, don't actually mind, if they are going out and having fun and it's going to potentially improve things. Its My dads belated birthday idea for my mum and she actually seems quite excited and wants to go out with him (Y). We did make my dad a card, which he really liked and said he really appreciated it and seemed to put him in a really good mood allll weekend. The card was covered in blue and silver glitter (front and back), and we cut out 'dad' in the front of the card and sis did some sort of fancy thing to make the 'dad' bit stand out, and we cut out some stars and them stuck on too, ha. Did look like three four year olds had made it but it worked :-D. I also made tom a card too, (I actually got into this card making thing, didn't think I would, don't normally like arty homework :-p but I found it quite relaxing) a small one with a cut out glittery red heart and stuck it on the front. You gave me an idea, partly coz I could sense he was about to test me in some sort of way/throw a wobble again coz he said 'I love you'. It kinda slipped out, don't think he actually meant to say it but he then said it again properly and I was a bit shocked... Not in a bad way, was actually quite romantic at the time, i was just taking it in thinking 'really', but it felt a bit weird/cheesy saying it back right after he said it. So anyways he went a bit quiet on me, oops, and I was trying to think of something to do pdq, before he got the wrong idea and a card worked, along with soppy message inside :) ...apart from the glitter, note to self he hates glitter. Back to my dads card we did leave a space for my mum to write something but she didn't want to, she thought it was nice from just the three of us, this was last Friday so she was prob still frustrated with him. Also I did make sure I talked to my dad more last weekend and encouraged the sibs to do the same too, sis was more cooperative then bro :-/.... I also joined my dad when he went out and stuff just to keep him company, when normally I wouldn't bother. Ooo Yeah I did do the excerise, Er yes it did hit home but not in a scary going to give me nightmares for the rest of my life kinda way but it did make me think. I got tom to do it too, gave my watch, which was when he reminded me how much he 'hates my bl**dy watch' *rolls eyes* (hasn't a occurred to him yet that he could replace it, if he really wanted to) and he got it but was like 'every time I hear your watch ticking it now reminds me of that exercise thing you did with me' ...yeah, men are sensitive! If he starts having nightmares I'll let you know :-p Yep my dad did tell he read my print outs and all he said was that they were an 'interesting read' and that was it no questions. He's always liked snooping/being nosey, Im sure if I kept a diary he would find it and read it, which is partly why I don't have one! So no I don't think he did see through it ...it was just him being him.

LILY31 it's taken me almost forever to scroll to the ding dang bottom here. Glad to hear that folks are going out this weekend ..... I like to hear positive things

Unfortunately life is full of things that'll bring you down, make you feel lost and leave you frustrated. That's what my life has been like since I left school, I do my best to fight but at times it does beat you down. Same happened to me in 2011, my old man was a monster but I didn't know it at the time. He would mentally bully my mother and he was jealous of me from birth because all attention was on me when I was born... which is obvious and normal. So then he started hitting the bars and coming home late at night drunk causing arguments with mother. So all through my childhood I grew up scared of him until I turned 21 when I decided to try and help him. Haha, was I wrong. Decided to go out on Christmas eve for a drink, so... on the way there on the bus he thought it would be funny to flick this boys hat who was sitting in front of us, he told my dad to leave him alone. No abuse or anything, he just said it like that. With that my dad got up and screamed at him. With that I got off the bus and walked back home, didn't talk to him for 3 days. Because I worked with him as a cleaner I had to put up with him at work, he was the biggest rat there. Causing problems between people, making it very hard for others to get along. Damn... thinking about it now brings back a lot of anger. So one night I came home from a friends and mum was crying her eyes out, long story short she met a couple of friends from the website friends reunited, which were old school friends and one of them was male. So 4 women and 1 male were out just having a laugh, that was it. She told him what she had done for the afternoon and he blew up, told her she was cheating, she was a lair and a horrible wife. So after calming her down, when she was asleep I grabbed my jacket and I stormed out of the house and walked to where my dad was staying... at his mums house (shes the biggest trouble maker but that's a story for another day), I was about to knock and break his neck but I felt restraint and left it alone. So the next couple of years he was staying at mummies house and occasionally coming back to our place for dinner and shit. In 2013 we moved house by then I had quit the job I was at to work at the local hospital. So one morning before we both left for work, he was being rude to mum and then came into my room and said "enjoy your day at the hospital, little pussy, you've finally stepped up even though you'll always be useless" with that I finally snapped. I grabbed my knife from my desk (I'm a sword and knife collector) and held it to his throat and told him that I hate his guts and never wanted to see him again otherwise hes dead. From that day on I have never felt better about myself and mums been a lot happier over the years. It's like freedom. I'm not promoting violence on family members but sometimes you need to step up, when somebody is being bullied especially if it's a loved one, you do anything even if its extreme to see them safe. Yeah I had a lot of regret but... at the end of the day I did something right and now I feel good about myself. I know our situations are different but at least you still have your father around and remain in contact. I hope things turn around for yourself and your parents.

Sorry for the long delay, be with you anon, Lils!

Hah - sooner than I thought! (Thanks for your input, guys. And, Fugnuk - sounds like your 'father' was far too stunted/immature to handle fatherhood and its demands for taking a back seat for a while. Still, as long as you don't go to the opposite extreme (= same result), instead finding a healthier balance with your own future kids (enough attention + enough genuine disciplining), you've had a great lesson in How Not To.) Lils, Glad your mum's cottoning on and agreed belatedly to the date. So - burning question: how did it go? Am imagining being your dad and getting an amazing gesture as all that! Not surprised it put him in a good mood all weekend. And not just the weekend, I'm betting! Well done - Missions "Pre-Soft-Soaping On Behalf Of Mum" and "Male Ego Re-Pumping" successful! :-) Tom got a card as well? I've turned you into a card-making monster? :-D "The power of the card...All hail the Mighty Card!" LOL. Immediate reciprocation is not cheesy, though. Granted, you were taken off-guard, but, other than that, it's MUCHO importante! It's the mating call, isn't it (like birds: "Ur-urch, ur-urch!.... / Ur-uurch, ur-uurch!"). The caller expects an echo as his Green light to make the next move on the wooing/capturing schedule. No echo? - no moving forward to the next level. So thank goodness your call-back came with compensation for said delay (that's the way to do it)! (PS: I'm sure he ceased hating glitter the minute he got yours. ;-)) Noted about mum not having been ready to contribute. Doesn't matter - you planted the attitude seed and that's the main thing... Although, maybe it was just that she didn't want to lump herself in as 'one of the kids' because - maybe? - that's been part of the entire problem? After all, what does it say if a husband just ANNOUNCES to his wife that he's- HE'S decided that they-THEY are going to undergo a major life/marital change at his unilateral behest, whether she likes it or not? It hardly says, I see you as an equal to me on this here marital board of directors, does it? So that could be why. But here's the crux: she's 'seen' you verbally identifying his ongoing crux problem and now 'seen' you meet the suspicion with its logical counterpart/remedy (one with lasting, self-replenishing effect), and, NOW, undoubtedly, has seen it effect an improvement = it must have been the correct diagnosis + treatment. So now there's no denying on her part that what you'd told her you'd deduced must have been true. After all, answers and remedies are relatively easy, it's identifying what precisely the question/problem is that's always the hard part (think exam questions). Now (click-click-whirr-whirr) she can see what she's really dealing with and throw out ideas for any remedies that neither align nor suit. It should help a lot, basically. Anyway, impressive efforts (and incredible level of cooperation and proactive-ness, actually!) on your part! ****** Ha-ha, if Tom starts having nightmares they'll undoubtedly feature ice-lollies covered in glitter...that he has to eat. Nah, he won't be having nightmares; thanks to the fact you reciprocated in a fashion that made up for the delay, thus proving your delay as purely innocent, I imagine he's from now on going to be looking like he slept with a coathanger in his mouth. :-) After all, if a woman says or "do-says" I Love You Too, then on some level it translates, for him, to this: What an achievement / I'm good at wooing (thank-you fans)! I'll await your update now. And PS: oh yes you do have a diary. This is it! :-) (Have you had a re-read yet?)

Yeah thanks for in put. Scopes it's a loong way down... and gets more positive :) Their date went well, they were out all day, which I knew they were going to be, and then they called to say they were back and going to the pub! Hmm, I had told them I was going out, which they pretended they had forgotten about (v.bad actors) and clearly thought I wouldn't mind, coz when I reminded them they were like 'but were having such a nice time together'. Couldn't really say no to that?! Its what I wanted to happen and normally I wouldn't of minded it was just that I then had to tell Holly I couldn't go out, which was interesting... anyone else and it would of been fine! It was just meant to be the two of us, to clear the air a bit coz things have been more then awkward between us, we're talking but it's not the same and we're both not being ourselves with each other. Of course she didn't like my alternative idea, which was for her to come round and have a girly night in, which I actually thought would be better coz we could talk more openly. Think she now officially hates me and megs coz she's ditched us for the popular ppl at school and had also befriended toms ex to obviously try and annoy me, it doesn't, it just makes her really two faced! Anyway...back to the point, my mum didn't get in till like after 2 am, they obviously went back to my dads...where I really, really don't want to think about what might of happened (ew ew ew) but if it did then I'm guessing that's a good thing, ugh. They also went out with the sibs on Sunday too and they're going out again this weekend. Basically, spending all their time together, it all seems to be happening really quickly but they both seem really happy at the moment and are slowly going back to their normal selves. Dunno why my dad just doesn't move back in but thats probably me just being impatient! Think I'm just going to have to start avoiding certain pubs/places. Yep, I think that is why my mum didn't want to sign our card coz she didn't want to be seen as one of the kids. Before they always made joint descions, my mum did any organising (she likes it) and was slightly more in control but it wasn't one of them telling other what was going to happen. You have turned me into a card making monster, don't think it will work on Holly though :^) . Seriously tom's face with the glitter, it was like l had given him some sort terminal glitter disease, men... must be a childhood thing, card was a hit though, am praising the card! Yeah, have been re-reading, I like looking back and seeing how it all turned into a positive, think it took me a while to realise/believe it coz when I first posted I was convinced divorced was deffinately on the cards, wrong!

Whew! It's a long way down to the bottom. LILY I was thinking of you yesterday when I was standing in line at Starbucks in back of a British girl. This was at the International terminal in the airport where I work. Her girlfriend walked up and said we won't have time for a coffee they're boarding. I said where are you goin? She said back to London as they swiftly walked away I said but...then to myself I said I wanna go too.. Actually I was thinking of Soulmate too..... :-D

Being out together all day long wasn't enough for them and they wanted to extend it into an evening at the pub? Wow - result! Sorry - that didn't do it: WOW - REEEEEEE-SULT!!! (There.) I was, before having read further, about to 'say', why not invite Holly to yours, but - she didn't want to meet you halfway and didn't appreciate the gesture? And then reacted as if you'd thwarted her plans deliberately? My, isn't SHE an over-sensitive little flower! I reckon she hadn't been interested in any girlie bonding to begin with...merely wanted you for going on the cruise with (boys-boys-boys...she's in a hurry, remember?). Well, leave her to it if she's going to be that difficult and prissy. I hardly think that gives her license to 'hate' you, though. I mean, what else were you supposed to do in that situation? Too unreasonable. Ha-ha, didn't get in until 2am? Absolutely! - "WEEEE KNOW WHAT YOU WERE DOOOO-IIIIING!" :-D Sorry, Lils,...but, yes, very- nay, exceptionally good news, nonetheless! :-) And, I see, more dates planned, including family ones?! Methinks they're well on the way to Fixedville. I think I know why dad isn't just moving back in. Mum. I'm betting she LIKES him having to re-do The Chase because it gives her the opportunity to amend past rules/agreements and habits and introduce new ones, ones that give her greater relationship equity. Sensible woman - liking it! You see, Lily, you can *assume* a wife and mother has 'most of the control'. But if what she wears the trousers over is superficial stuff in terms of the grander scheme of things, then all she's got is placators, fob-offs and distractors. Example: 'We're having Spaghetti Bolognaise for supper Friday and on Saturday I've decided we need a new coffee table' is hardly the same as 'I've decided (without even informing/checking with you) to re-invest our pension "here" instead of "here"', is it. I mean, you can't really assert with any confidence that your mum has equal control, let alone more, when you remember his giant, unilateral decision to up-stix you all, can you? Evidence therefore suggests that renegotiations/re-training is, now more than ever, distinctly needed. Still, men love the chase and challenge so - certainly won't do him any harm, that's for sure. I don't think Holly deserves a card for this one, actually. I think any olive-branch-ing is hers - for treating you like your company/the two of yours relationship wasn't the entire point to begin with and then making you feel guilty over something you weren't even remotely to blame for and therefore couldn't do a thing to change/fix....acting like she's the giant victim when in fact the opposite's the case. Was that normal for her? *********** Scopes, I take it you like non-stop cold and rain, then? You can also add, mini gale-force (cold, bitter) winds....London streets create a lot of vortices. Bring a wet-suit and flippers, you'll blend right in. LOL

Update, Lils? (I'll be posting again tomorrow.)

Still going well :-D they're still meeting up after work, which has now become like a normal thing and tonight they have gone out for dinner to a posh restaurant...well that's what they've said they are doing, I'm expecting my mum to arrive home late again. My dad with no encouragement from anyone has also gone back to his idea of giving my mum gifts, just more spread out this time and more thoughtful. my mum is accepting them too, think she is definitely enjoying all the chasing but she'll also deffinately be saying her bit too. Also my dad has been quite excited this week coz him and the other gp partner have decided to make the surgery bigger and better, which means he now has a project. And I think also means he is less likely to go back to his stupid hospital job idea so he ain't goin no where. Still not relaxing just yet coz I don't know what my mum thinks about this, I'm hoping he's told her before me! On Sunday we are going on a family trip to London to the science museum, this was my brothers idea. His counsellor has been encouraging him to find ways to help him feel 'more part of the family', which is what he says he feels, he happily updates me . Sunday i normally see tom coz he works all day Saturday but my mum after found out my brothers reasons why he want to go to London she was a bit upset and insisted that all of us to go. Really I should go on one family outing thing. Tom got invited too, he's happy to come coz he's he's want to go to he science museum, hmm dunno why but for some reason I think he gonna to act like a big kid :-p... I'm trying to find some enthusiasm for this, the parents are going to be even more embarrassing together then they were when they're apart,...Y..aa...y, science museum...roll on Sunday *pulls face*. I Tried. Yeah Holly has always acted like she's the victim and she's always reacted like this if I've had to pull out on something. she also gets really jealous and makes it obvious when I or someone else have something she wants, but she's never actually stopped talking to me (and megs), which is what she has now done since last weekend. Normally this would really bug me and I would want to get it sorted but I think I am just gonna leave her to it. megs hasn't tried to go and make up with her behind my back which I thought she might do. Also I don't think Holly gets a lot of attention at home or at least from her dad something going on there that makes her act like this. I think anyways. But megs and I have decided that if and when Holly does stop being so petty we're both make up with her at the same time so one of us doesn't get left out. ***** Yeah scopes it's freezing here! Am always cold at the moment brr.

Wish there was a jump to the bottom option for replies. Sounds good LILY so far anyway. It's actually warm here about 73 degrees and about to get warmer. I still want to go to London though

Hey scopes no more scrolling it goes straight to the bottom of the thread now :-) . Mini update things have gone down hill a bit this week. my mum came back from her counselling the other day not very happy and then she and my dad had an argument and now no plans been made for this weekend and have seen much of each other. My brother name was used a lot :-/. I know its not gonna be perfect all the time but I was getting used to things kinda going back to normal-ish.

LILY there's going to be a downslide here and there but let's see how things go. So does this mean that this is the end of the thread?

Haven't you ever heard, Scopes? It ('it' being a Happy ending starting to kick in and unfold in this case) ain't over until the Fat Lady's sung. (Don't look at me, Mr Potentials, I ain't fat and I certainly ain't no lay-deh! GAFFAW-GAFFAW!) ******** Hallooooo, Ms Lily! (Usual scratched record:) I'm SOO sorry for the delay-I'm SOO sorry for the delay-I'm SOO sorry for the delay...["urch!"] and yabber-yabber boring even myself now with this broken record.... Just bladdy non-stop busy as rhymes-with-TRUCK, aaand enough about ME. Well.... Just goes to show you what can be achieved if you pull together as a family. You don't even have to pull together en masse, you can do it in little breakaway groups - 'departments', doesn't matter: the pulling together as one, 'company' is the point, ALSO KNOWN AS, "It's four against one, mate, give it the f*ck up, ALRIGHT, DR. FIFI CLAIRE-LOUISE VIOLET-ELIZABETH TRIXIE-BELLE with the obviously decent, lovely wife and three astoundingly strong, kind, well-meaning self-controlled (at their ages) children ["MORE LIKE THAT, PLEASE, BARTENDER?"], not least your literally astounding eldest/first-born? :-p ...Or 5 if you count me. Or 6 if you count Tom. Or 7 if you count Auntie. ...Am laughing my face off, Lily, cos, IMAGINE IF HE'D KNOWN? :-D Psst! Tell mum next time to *always* call in the troops if at her age she finds she can't match him energy for energy because he's a bigger, now that she knows she HAS SOME (starting with her first-born no-longer-child-but-ADULT). Doesn't matter if whomever's doing the bullying isn't a bona fide bully, normally. 'Bullies/Those who are trying to bully to get their way rely on your silence/secrecy' still holds. Even make THE WHOLE 'neighbourhood' be avidly watching to see what (this case, his) next move or moves are going to be and he'll damn well behave himself and come back to seeing sense and feeling foolish and ashamed that much faster, yoooou betcha. Final Conclusion - despite more encores undoubtedly still to come: (Apt to be) Stupid but not actually Murderous or Suicidal [crowd goes wild]. What have you learned, then, Lily, that's going to help you should ever *you* find yourself in your mum's position or any similar? (This is your University Of Life module exam question, LOL, and - though I may arrive slightly (LOL - cough) late again because I've got so much (practical) sh*t on my own plate - I will be returning to mark your your paper just as soon as I can. But now it's Playtime so - go and have some fun.) :-) :-) :-) Seriously pleased for you. Oh, and - don't think you have to now go away and be a stranger, carry on adding to your new 'blog' if you want to and/or take a purely adviser's seat, dealing with anyone whose thread appeals and definitely those of the teenagers who come on here that don't want to be surrounded by nothing but a load of "Wrinklies" ('Does my bum look saggy in this?')). I would be right chuffed to consider you one of the resident team, whyyy the uck not! - it's not ABOUT age-on-paper, it's about age of SOUL). What say you, you incredible (not-so-)little person, you? Does that appeal? :-) (Say "ugh, no, yuck!" if it doesn't, I trust you and your judgement, and that's saying an awful lot from an incredibly hard task-master like me, lick-lick, crawl-crawl, and other avid noises...). Why am I congratulating 'the team' when you've reported an argument? Because it's just a normal......typical....mum and dad type of BICKER but they're just still living like separateds, that's all, not yet having had the chance to start to shuffle the things in the environment around to suit the new programme so are taking advantage of this actually much-needed break + 'separate beds' situation ("haaaaah, Me Time, haven't had this FOR YEARS"). Scopes is right to remind you that progress is never seamless, same as your driving lessons, but if you're basically a decent, well-intentioned person or couple or people and you just persevere and never lose faith - you get there in the end, sure as eggs is eggs. Normal arguments are going to be a feature, now. GOOD! How refreshingly honest and sharing. How ("hhhhh!....uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-AH!") was the Scienzzzzzzzzzz..................sorry!, Museum in the end?

Are we done, Lils - everything still getting fixed nicely on the parent front, no need for more reality-checking, etc. - or do you have anything to report/confide?

Ditto from Scopes

Hi Noooooo, not done just yet, I like my thread lol and want a happier ending! At least not ending on an argument even though I now know arguement are going to happen/normal... I'm waiting for my dad to move back in, that's my ideal and I'm willing to wait. So will update . Just got a bit busy this time too, my mum and I went to visit my aunt and inspect her new bf :-D who she was keeping a secret since at least xmas (Y), think she's likes this one and won't dump him. Also been having bf trouble *rolls eyes* ...men are complicated and so not impressed with tom at the moment don't like it, but he's in the dog house :-I. If it's not your best friend being an idiot (still noting from Hollie either) it's your bf...or in my case Both! Ohhh, look at me with the excuses :-p... Think if my dad knew he wouldn't of even bothered :D. There's still a bit of tension with my mum and dad from the argument they had, apparently my brother went to my dad with a problem and instead of helping him my dad had a go at him, which obviously didn't help. My mum wasn't very happy with the way my dad spoke to bro and she's says it's one of the things she wants my dad to look at. But bro should know my dad is not the best person to go to with a problem he obviously just wanted to try. They've both had the week off work and haven't really done anything together. My dad ''forgot'' (so he says) about Valentine's Day and my mum didn't and got him a card etc. Not that they ever really used to care, just thought it might be a good time for them both to be romantic :-/. I dunno feels like it's going a bit backwards rather then forwards. Science muemsum was ok, parents were then acting all loved up and were a bit embarressing. Was a bit weird going out with my mum and dad together as a family coz it obviously hasn't happened for a few months and in the beginning I didn't think it was ever going to happen again. Dont plan on buggering off, Ok :-) will look out for teenage posts, have no idea what to say to some of he adults ones anyways :-/.

Ahhh.. there yee are. LIL just keeping in touch is good, just let us know when you plan on buggering off.

parents are back to normal and all loved up again now :) . My mum wasn't so bothered about Valentine's Day like I thought she was just like; 'a card would of been nice but he can make it up to me in other ways' ok, enough said thanks! My dad has also spoken with bro too and apologised (Y). Think my dad is slowly changing/trying to be nicer and is starting to look at his mood and is realising that sometimes he can be a bit imtimidating. Anyway they spent all of this weekend together just being at home (family home) and my dad stayed over, that might of been partly coz they were both looking after me a bit. Which leads on to! ...I've had a sh*t half term. Things with me and tom have not been good since last Tuesday and he then broke up with me on Friday. Its so f*cking stupid because it's something someone else has done, not me or him and it doesn't feel right that he ended things because of it :(. It's like male drama version of what's happened with me and Hollie. *sighs* keeping it short last Tuesday I got flowers from some else and tom didn't like it and ruined a really nice day by getting in a bad mood and just left and went home, which I thought was really immature of him. That was after arguing with me and saying that I wouldn't like it if it was the other way round. I don't think I would of been too happy but I wouldn't of reacted the same way he did or make him feel bad. Wasn't too upset more angry and I just thought it was a stupid argument and he over reacted. We ignored each other for two days, then on Friday he came round, I thought to make up, but he gave me the 'it's me not you, I'm just really insecure and it's not fair on you that I'm like this' crap. He wouldn't talk about it,(I tried) even though he looked like he wanted to and he looked upset. And I know he was testing me in some way but I'm so bored of him testing me or getting insecure, when I have been making sure that I'm reassuring him/fluttering eye lashes at him :-|. What else does he want ?! In some ways, dunno how true it is, but it feels like he's been looking for a reason to end things for a while, which makes me think he's never been totally happy with me :(. I did tell my mum that and she quite bluntly told me not to think like that but I can't help it. She also thinks he's going to realise what he's done and will want to make up soon. HMM. the flowers are from, Jamie, (don't think tom has figured this out yet). Hes both our now, so called 'friend' from school who's been acting a bit creepy recently and I've had to put him straight a few times when he's got a bit touchy or said something. I'm gonna talk to him tomorrow to make him realise what's happened, coz I'm not flattered! And I don't like the way ( i think) it makes me look as in big headed or vain or something coz I'm not. the feeling is not mutral, in the slightest :-/. So tomorrow at school is going to be awkward it's been really hard to not text him or call tom and not miss him. I kinda want to see him tomorrow and kinda don't and want to avoid him! Which is going to be interesting coz our friends have kind of merged into one group. My dad (weirdly) is nearly upset as I am, been getting lots of random 'dad hugs', think he's practising his sympathy skills coz normally he wouldn't know what to say! And sis has been camping out on my bedroom floor since Saturday, she insists that floor is comfy, strange little person but its appreciated :) .

Bear with, INCREDIBLY busy, but - parents/great news! - Tom, 'over' my a*se, HA-HA, precisely the opposite - more tomorrow(ish).

Very good... say I've noticed some software changes or is just me?

'Big/Lengthy' people = big/lengthy relationship = big/lengthy Time Out after a fight = "Time Out aka Separation is magic!" 'Little/Brief' people = little/brief relationship = little/brief Time Out after a fight = "Time Out aka Separation is magic!" He's only giving you a slight thrashing on an open country road at this point, anyway. See, he's sniffed the upholstery, likes the interior and seats, the design, the sound of the engine, the sound of the payment plan, warranty, parts & service on offer, present and future extras/add-ons on offer, the car's design performance spec on paper. Now is taking the car out of the showroom, along different types of roads under all sorts of different conditions...this part of the journey, called, How well does "she" perform and hug the road "when"...? Does her engine start making weird whining noises? How much of a thrashing can "she" handle (so I pre-know what would happen in, say, some emergency situation that required really hoofing it?)... ...USING surface 'stuff' as his excuse and landscape, in the form of: "New Relationship Rule: we do not allow opposite-sex singletons any leverage whatsoever, so we just don't go there. We appreciate what it says about some so-called friend if s/he would even *think* about trying to mar or destroy what was perfectly pleasing relationship that, they could easily tell, were affording us happiness. Did I tell you about the very tall, dark and handsome SNAKE who, while getting his *family but not crowd-of-mates sized takeaway!, tried to completely out-of-the-Blue come onto me in front of friends in an Indian Restaurant not so many years back, and how I sent him packing ("how verreh DARE hyou!") with a witty retort? (Well, everyone else in the restaurant thought so, anyway...note to self, turn the volume down, note 2 to self 2, only joshing). Oh, wait. I just did. Protect and preserve your integrity *every* *single* *time*, certainly if you realise that's what you're doing and why. Healthy cores are what MAKE the shiny Red outside of an attractive apple, n'est pas. And who the hell wants attention from someone who has no thought for your happiness, just his? So anyway... You wouldn't accept the rule (probably because he didn't communicate the what and why effectively enough when 'under fire' of a present threat). So you thought he was trying to get something for him and him alone. Nope. Sometimes he needs your help and cooperation to protect the pair of you. But there are ways of asking (for a normally articulate chap). Ah, but NOT if you're a scientist and fancy replicating an event. And NOT if you lack the type of imagination that allows you to understand by insight, so have to (mini) re-enact...get in the dressing-up box, including the same shoes (smaller). His style was wrong (lacked sauveness and detailed enough reason and explanation) but the attitude is intelligent and sensible ("Our precious relationship, all trespassers will be shot on sight!"). And that's the main thing. Thing about if he hadn't minded? NOW you're in trouble?! And now he's added the 'how much do you want and need me' test. "Oh, I'm no good for you, I think...I should bow out and (blah-blah)" / "Noooo, dooon't, aaaaargh, you are, mummyyyyy!!!!", you're supposed to say. Course he's "insecure". He's won a Lambhourgini. I used to own a Royal Blue & Gold Scooby Doo Imprezza Turbo with Gold Alloys and personalised plate, Pro-Drived by 17.5%. Yeh. EFFING insecure, I was! That's how it works. Fluttering your lashes, so to speak, does not prove your INTEGRITY. As I say, there's nothing wrong with your headlamps, grille,...bodywork and surface interior. But now he's got to look under the bonnet and *test* by activating and applying what's under the bonnet. That simple. (Doesn't suspect Jamie, ha-ha! Even I knew, even before reading further down, and I ain't your bf.) Doesn't matter what the bloke's name is, anyway. And fluttering lashes prove only that you have lashes that flutter...how's THAT going to help him on his death bed ("Want me to turn my mini-fan on, Tom?") :-D Or, 'The kids are going mental! / Don't worry, I'll flutter my lashes at them, that oughda do it!'. You 'nana.) Here's a great plan to share with Tom: Tom takes those flowers, hands them back to Jamie, and looking both coquettish and guilty, puts his hand gently on Jamie's upper arm and says, 'I really do appreciate the amazing flattery, but unfortunately [1] I'm already happily taken and [2] don't want to alarm my partner for no good reason'. :-D I would. So it's just a sign he's thinking and already starting to operate according to the longer-term, despite he's not a very good sales (concept) pitcher. (PS: Sis is just returning the favour. As are mum and dad and then dad (extra). He ain't daft, either....(cough!) left important documents, don't you dare look, etc. They were just thickened at the time enough to have missed what you were up to and why (for the power of good *for all*).)

PS: Should have added: you can have opposite sex single friends again (maybe) (probably won't want them by then, unless they're paired off as well) *after* the Honeymoon/Foundation-building period. *IF* you're serious, even just today/for now, about Tom (because this is how Seriouses behave, see?). Certainly once it's not just a case of 'him I don't trust, her I'm not sure yet'. Because rejecting the flowers- the ADVANCE - is one of the things that build that very trust. He can then enjoy being one of those blokes who sits back, observing and thinking, 'Haaaa, every bloke wishes they had my Lambhourgini, look. But only I've got the keys and they're one-off unique keys so they can't even replicate them, let alone steal them, haaaaaaah'.

But (PS), he does have to, meanwhile, simultaneously be proving his own integrity, etc. to you. Never forget that. It's a TWO-way test-drive. Which is where too many women fall down, 'Oh, it's so pretty, I LOVE Pink, and it SOUNDS alright, plus I can park it easily...yeah, I'll take it - here's my heart and may I have my receipt, please (I'm really clever, look, I remembered to ask for the receipt)'. If ever you need to (doubt it), you can remind him of this episode, can't you. ;-)

Well, Scopsie, I wouldn't know if you'd undergone software changes so - can't help ya, I'm afraid. [rotten tomatoes] But you could always try asking the programming guru that is Richard? He might appreciate some end-user feedback, never know til you try? :-) Not being difficult, just being busybusybusybusybusy (someone else has to pick my nose these days).

Ah ok got it thanks :D It took Tom a few days to approach me and admit that he didn't actually want to break up and that he was miserable with his decision. I didn't let him off the hook straight away, he put us both through over a weeks worth of anxiety and stress, which was not cool. But it's all sorted now. I didn't say anything to Jamie at first (my mum told me not to be too mean to him) I just let him realise for himself what had happened. it was obvious coz to start with tom and I were distancing our selves from each other at school and were not acting like a couple. I waited for Jamie to come to me to find out what was going on, which he did and I then told him but he didn't look too apologetic :-l but he knows I'm angry with him and he doesn't like it . Holly also came scuttling over from her new friendship group asked me if tom and I were ok, probably so she could go and feed information back to her new friends, but I didn't tell her anything. She would of loved what had gone on, it would of made her year. Really wished I had thought of your idea :-D hehehe, I did share it with tom, he liked this idea but his response was ' I'll shove them up his f**king arse if there is a next time' *rolls eyes*. Getting him not to confront Jamie (verbally) about this has been hard coz they are meant to be friends :-/. I know I can't really control this, I'm sure tom will say something to him at some point was just trying to get him not to do it when he was so angry! There is something else going on with tom though, which is that his dad isn't well, he didn't tell me any of this coz when it happened I was still stressed out about my mum and dad so he's kept this bottled up. In January his dad ended up in hospital coz he had a bit of a weird turn at work and his heart beat was all erratic. He's now had tests and has got to see a cardiologist and this has obviously been playing on toms mind, and it explains a few time where I noticed he was very quiet and very distracted. He has opened up to me quite a lot now though and has said he is worried sick coz his dad is older and not that fit and it has brought on a huuuuggeee fear of him loosing people he's loves. And I'm finding it hard as to what to say to him, think my dad would be more help. But I Think this somehow goes towards why he reacted the way he did, you think?

Tell Tom, Well, shoving it up his f***ing arse (is it/does it, how does Tom know?? lol) was going to be my first suggestion but then I remembered Tom was a gentleman (;-p). Here was my reverse Viagra to the restaurant snake: Sid The Snake: [tap on shoulder] SORRY,...I JUST HAD to come over and say... I think you're THE most stunning [censored] I've ever seen! Moi (loudly): The most stunning [censored] you've ever seen?! I say, how SWEET of you to "just" say so! My sex-change consultant's going to be absolutely THRILLED when I "just " tell him! It's only BEEN two weeks since he did the op, see! [beam]. [cue sniggers and one quickly-stifled "HWAH!" from adjacent tables...although it could have been a duck that the chef had bought a bit on the fresh side and had got loose?] Old me (in my 20s), on the other hand, would probably have said, HOW DARE YOU, WHO THE UCK DO YOU THINK YOU ARE, MORE TO THE POINT, WHO THE UCK DO YOU THINK *I* AM, WHAT'S THIS SHINY THING ON MY LEFT HAND, EH [I used to wear a fake wedding band when between squeezes] - DIDN'T YOU CLOCK IT, MR MAGOO?...BEEN SO LONG SINCE YOU HID YOURS IN YER POCKET YOU'VE FORGOTTEN WHAT ONE LOOKS LIKE? WANT I BRING IT CLOSER FOR YA? ..............[half an hour later].......yeah, you do that, ya slimy git, bleugh. No, he mustn't confront Jamie or else he'll be signalling that he feels Jamie could succeed ergo Jamie is a threat ergo Jamie should persist because he's obviously in with a chance. I'm with you: don't *ever* take action when emotionally roused. Wait until you're calm again. That's why Spock's cleverer than Cap'n Kirk. Yeah, some friend. But like I said before, he might not even fancy you that much or at all. Or he does but that wasn't what motivated him. Not wanting to lose his friend and 'biz partner' might have been his primary concern. Or lots of elements all bundled together, including wanting to measure himself against Tom/aspiring to be Tom. And/or bored and lacking any challenge. Whatever... You're too gorgeous, Tom's too gorgeous - what can I say? Nah, it's flattering to the pair of you, equally, I wouldn't worry about it. Aw, sorry to hear about Tom's da. :-( Hope he's doing better now? Did he? Put it on the backburner for your sake? Aw, there you go (again) - what a gent. And yes, of course it was a causal factor, certainly in terms of that corking of stress escaping out with the at the first fright (Jamie on the prowl). That sort of thing makes *anyone* feel *very* insecure. In fact, Scopes could tell you - his beloved mum has dementia. :-( You don't have to say anything, really, you just have to listen and generally be a huggy rock. Or help keep his mind off things. Or better yet, ASK him what he needs. I'd plump for the last one, that way you can't go wrong. :-)

sorry for the late reply, I've been ill and not felt like doing much till today. My dad (and puppy) moved back in this weekend, I got my family baaaack :-D . so far the parents seem pretty happy and relaxed from what I can tell ...its only day 3 but they are doing all the things they used to do no awkwardness, just a bit weird seeing my dad every day. But I'm happy and the sibs are happy (Y) I think we are just slightly shocked that this has actually happened and when we didn't think it would. Let's just hope neither of them f*** it up. Fat lady can sing now, I'll order the fat suit and ear plugs for you guys so you don't have to listen to my singing :P. Haha that's funny about the restaurant snake, wish I was that quick in thinking. Would of liked to of witnessed it :-D. With Jamie after he hadn't been that apologetic I nearly told him to forget open mic night from now on, teaching him guitar and this wedding we gotta do in April but that would of been a bit stupid coz we're getting paid quite a lot and I it would of made me look like right b*tch and probably would of escalated things, so nah just, just distancing myself from him a bit is enough he getting, hes getting message in whatever's way he's taking it. Tom's dad, hmm not too good, he's been told by doctors he needs to loose weight and that hes already at high risk of heart attack coz of all the tests he's had done. He's Been sighed off work too coz he's drives all over the place and when I have seen him he's doesn't look very happy +0(. so things are a bit tense at toms house and I think to get space tom prefers to come to my house, when we normally go to his, more quieter. His dad is not that willing to do anything yet as in exercise and diet, think tom has tried to get him to go on walks but he's refusing, which is frustrating/worrying him (and his mum). I did ask tom what he needs and he said just wants to be close to home in case something happens, fair enough really... his mind set is not that positive at the moment, he just thinks the worst is going to happen and I'd prob be the same too if my dad was being that stubborn :-/. Aww, scopes that's sad about your mum :( hope things are ok with her at the mo.

Lily I was just going to respond here sorry I've been out of the loop for a while. Glad to hear that the fat lady's getting closer. I've been quite busy with my outside renovation. Trying to make serious progress before it gets over 110 degrees.

BTW as of now its status quo with my mum. So we're good, and if things to take a turn for the worse we're prepared. Thanks for your concerns Lil

HAPPY ENDING - WOOHOO!!! :-) :-) :-) I'm absolutely chuffed, despite delirious with lack of sleep (you won't notice, LOL). OOH, JUST REMEMBERED! Does that mean I can have my £50 now? It was £50 we bet, wasn't it? Or was it £100? ["madeyapanic!", LOL......karate-chop me later] Sorry about Tom's da, though. :-( I'm sure he just needs to get his head around to it all in his own time, though, tell Tom; When, not If. It is rather a gargantuan shock, after all, needs a mini-grieving process all its own, does that one. What would help, however, would be to subtly - *subtly* - start to mention the many positives of his losing weight and getting fitter, a la, 'Ooh, just thought, dad!...when you lose weight you'll be able to do X, won't you?'. There must, surely, be some or other activity(s) his dad had been wishing he could still do, were it not for the excess weight, etc? Maybe something "father and son" in nature? Whatever, just something to look forward to and focus on? If it were me, I think I'd organise a whip-round among the rellies and friends, enough, say, to fund a fortnight's (healthy but appealing) getaway for he and Tom's mum if he hits some certain realistic target? Again, some non-instant but still highly effective, wholly achievable incentive with real "yeh-yeh-yeh" value in his dad's eyes? (Just a tip.) So I'm curious to know what track is your Fat Lady singing, Lils - pray tell? :-) Re quick thinking: As my pastiche per age/stage illustrated (pay attention at the back, there, please?), practise makes perfect. Lots 'n lots 'n lots. Why - did you think you were the "onn-lee gor-gess thing en thuh vill-edge, Myfanwy"? ;-p Alternatively, there's watching more stand-up comedy and quick-witted, banter-laden classics like, for example, Cheers and/or The Green Wing (timeless!...plus both about young couples in-love experiencing trust and relational difficulties, featuring lots of game-playing, in a very pee-taking, disempowering thus quite possibly preventative way-*cough*-no reason, LOL.) Jamie-Schmamie-Low-Down-Gamey: noted. And, good instincts again! But, also, depending on what noises Tom makes, you might want to invite him along to any of these gigs/functions, if poss? Whether or not he declines, at least it'd show confidence in a willingness to reassure on your part? Plus it would confirm to Jamie that he were on a hiding to nothing (two birds, one stone, and all that)? Anyway...WOOHOO!!! :-) PS Scopes: first you're experiencing software problems and now your exterior needs renovating? Oo-er, Matron! Seriously though, glad to hear your mam's doing well as well.

Actually Soulmate I'd say we're good. Very busy with spring break here and of course this outside stuff. Lilly how are we gonna stay in touch? Open a thread "staying in touch " :-)

staying it touch thread sounds like a good plan scopes (Y) will reply properly tomorrow :-D

Ahhhhhhhhh greaaat!!! (rofl)

Oops, sorry was meant to reply yesterday but ended up taking the sibs out coz my mum wanted to talk to my dad in private, apparently it was nothing to worry about she just wanted the space :-/. Think one of the reasons is below and I'm actually quite pleased she seems to be on the ball. Huh, my dad is being a kn*b :-I . When he first moved back in he was being all nice and trying to be more aware if he upset or offended someone. He also wanted to start doing things with each of us individually and talked to us about it and what we could do but so far he's only followed through with my sister, and has been spoiling her a lot and she's the demanding one! But if my brother or I remind him or suggest something to do he gets snappy and it's like he doesn't want to. And For most of this week he's been in a really bad/argumentative mood and just not very approachable. It's like he's got bored of his nice act and it's feels like he was being really fake. I think he also managed to lecture me on just about everything, school work, relationship with tom (that was just embarrassing, he's so bl**dy weird and nosey !), uni. You could say he was trying to he caring in his own way but it was done in an really aggressive way and he was just picking at everything. My mum even told him to shut up at one point he was going on at me so much. The most annoying thing is he doesn't say what's made him angry, and he gives no reassurance, like work stressing him out or something, we are just made to feel like we've done something wrong. maybe it's just nothing, maybe he just likes being moody, and so maybe he needs to spend a week on his own again to remind himself what it's like to be alone! Grr :-| Don't like him at the moment! Rant over :) Yep, tom has started made it very clear he's NOT happy with just me and Jamie going alone to this wedding thing together. I'm pleased you said that and I've been waiting for him to say something, otherwise I might of moaned at him for not trusting me :-/. Tom surggested he would drive but his words were 'Jamie can get the bus', it's like an hours drive away (jamie can't drive) but I think he was joking :-/, if he wasn't then he clearly like to make things difficult... He liked the ideas you had for his dad :-D and I think he has very stubly started saying things to him. He has also started to cook his dad healthy meals too coz he mum tried to put his dad on a smoothie diet, which didn't go down well, did look gross. And er....he is teaching him how to skate board, not out in public, in the garden where there are bushes...to fall into, it has happened. :-/. tom seems to think it's a step in the right direction to getting his dad to do other things and apparently it's showing him sport can be fun...this is coming from him who decided it was a really good idea to skate board down a really big hill, lost his balance and ended up in a&e with a broke his collar bone, was a while ago, but still he always has an injury from skate boarding and his mum is freaking out everytime and I just don't watch! Tom also liked the idea of a holiday once his dad hit goal he's got like a million relatives so that wouldn't be a problem, but he was then like 'I want to go on holiday too, let's go on holiday in the summer!' Yeah I can see that one going down well with my misable git of a dad. I think at one point soulmate you bet your house, somewhere up there ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^. Ermmm, Would you accept two air fifty pound notes ? :D

Hey Lils! Was dad always like this?...even a bit? Or at least since his work pressure upped? Or is this a brand new development? And, since she'll have had it by now - did your mum's talk with him improve matters at all? Re Tom: no, I expect he wasn't happy, and I'm unsurprised he wants Jamie to get the bus (or flying monkey). I mean, this 'business colleague' of yours *has* overtly and brazenly come onto you and only quite recently, knowing you were happily taken and meanwhile having always presented himself as a friend of the relationship as well as Tom's (yes?); I mean, that's a slap round Tom's chops with a White glove, that is! If someone challenges you to a duel, you don't tend to offer to give them a lift to the duelling site at your petrol-expense, making for an at best discombobulating, even cringe-making journey experience or, at worst, re-insulting and re-infurating one (by which I mean, subtle vocal liberties and flirting and/or subtle insults aimed under your radar at Tom...that sort of thing). So tell me why you think Tom, in taking you up on your PEACE offering of getting to reassuringly chaperone you and get to show Jamie your solidity as a couple (and remember, this is a one-off because of Tom's extenuating stress circumstance, i.e. dad's health scare), should have to provide door-to-door chauffeuring for the person who tried to ruin his, yours, and your relationship's life as 'all three' know it? I mean, never mind that you wouldn't have lowered yourself to having succumbed to Jamie's (cough) charms and can 'defend' and assert yourself perfectly well - that's not the point. The point is Tom having received empathetic and cooperative permission from you to get to BASICALLY show Jamie that any further such trying it on would be a waste of his time anyway....because you love thus empathise to that sensitive level, with Tom, not Jamie. Including which of the two gets to enjoy calm and comfort during the long journey down. Berbom. It's a loyalty thing, in other words. Alternatively, just reverse the entire event by pretending the Jamie figure was one of your girl friends having tried to kiss Tom behind your back, leaving a lipstick mark on his neck for you to find hours later...and next you know, although impressively-placatingly having been told out of consideration of your wellbeing (peace of mind) that you can accompany Tom, you're then being asked and expected to give the "beeping-beep-beep-beep!" a lift down there(!). Presumably at your expense(!). Potentially forced to listen to her (or even just feel forced to stay vigilant and listen out for, just in case), potentially subtly yet not-so-subtly trying to chat Tom up (all over again)? And ditto any slights and insults aimed under Tom's radar at you to knock your confidence? (It could happen with someone who's - let's not forget, *already* proven to have far too much front to be healthy, could it not?) As I see it, it's all Tom's prerogative of decision, all of it. HE DID NOTHING WRONG, JAMIE DID (AND, UNWITTINGLY MAYBE, BUT - YOU ALMOST COOPERATED AND WISH TO SHOW YOUR REGRET AND ALLEGIANCE). So Tom's the one who's 'owed' THIS olive branch. Because a chunk was taken out of his self-esteem and pride. But your olive branch is in danger of being spoiled by the fact it might come with a giant, stinging, slimy maggot attached. How likely would you be willing to take it? Anyway, how was Jamie intending to get down there before he knew Tom were coming? SEE WHAT I'M SAYING? Even if it was going to be you driving - only Jamie himself scuppered that opportunity/courtesy so, if Jamie wants to kick himself, let him...that'll learn him! So who told you Jamie was relying so heavily on this lift? Jamie? More to the point, though: Why on earth would Jamie want to put himself through that cringe-worthily uncomfortable journey experience, anyway??? RSvP. I do not trust Jamie, Sam(antha)-I-Am. Jamie ruined his chance at a free lift, nobody else. Let Jamie suffer his own consequence by having to take the train/bus (or the broomstick) or get one of his *own* friends to chauffeur him. But that's just how I see it. Particularly as - otherwise, what punishment or lesson has Jamie had as would in the process equalise Tom's resultant sense of violation and injustice? Re Tom's dad: Smoothie that didn't go down too well. :-D Did Tom's mum maybe make it using a potato masher instead of an electric blender? Teaching him how to skateboard? Cool! Why ever not?! Oh - bushes is why not, LOL. But (back to seriousness) - why would your dad have a problem with you going abroad with Tom and his fam? Do you mean, because he'd have the usual family holiday plans which included you? What about Tom's family - how do they feel about it? PS: Air £50 notes? What, like, from Airland? (no, you stop, lol)

Soulmate I knew you'd get right on this. And I'm glad you did we need to keep in touch :-|

Arrgggh that was supposed to be a :-)

Hey, Yeah, my dad was a bit like this before, but it seems to be on a whole new level, where it’s constant and he’s being aggressive. My mum’s talk didn’t do anything, and apparently he was really dismissive when she told him she was getting really bored with how he was acting and his bad mood. He didn't change over the weekend. On Saturday, I asked him if he wanted to do anything but he just said ‘no’, so I left him alone, went did my own thing and then found out he had taken my sister to the cinema and he didn’t bother to ask if anyone else wanted to go. Felt a bit personal! Then yesterday we went out for lunch for mothers day, my mum was really p*ssed off by this point and told him if he was going to stay in his foul mood then she didn’t want him to come. I didn’t really want him to come either but my sis kicked up a fuss, so he came and it was such a waste of time because his attitude didn’t change and he was just firing really negative sh*t at each of us, like one after the other (bet she regretted wanting him to come). My mum was defending herself and each of us, it was almost embarrassing, I’m just pleased it was quite busy where we went and if it wasn’t for mother’s day I would of left. Then went round toms in the evening and at about 8.30 he called me telling me to ‘get home now because it was a school night’… it’s never been a problem before and I always make sure I’m home by ten anyway, not like I stay out till 2 am :-I, so I took my time and was he waiting for me when I got home where he shouted at me for taking ages to come home and I argued back but also tried to find out what was going on with him but he ended up slamming the lounge door in my face. He's so nice. And that is what it’s been like for the last week and I have a feeling it’s going to be the same this week. The only time it’s nice at home is when he’s at work. And I don’t think it is work, he likes it at the moment coz he’s still seeing less patients and doing other stuff. Yep, I can see what your saying :-). I was going to drive to the wedding venue, I didn’t really want Jamie in my car either coz he wasn't about to offer any petrol money he's a taker and he would just assume he'd get a lift with whoever I was getting a lift if I wasn't driving. I’d just rather we be there together and get it over with coz these people (I know its there big day) are demanding! And if he's not there, I'm a bit useless on my own. Oh, Jamie would probably quite happily sit in tom’s car and wind him up coz he’s a cocky/very self assured idiot. Loves himself a bit. But tom probably would kick him out at any point on the motorway or in the middle of nowhere. I have also told Jamie I’m not doing any more open night mics or anything else after this coz I can't be bothered and I'm starting to teach little kids piano and guitar after school, which is a nicer way to earn money. Dunno how toms mum is making theses smoothies or what’s in them but tom offered to start having them with his dad if he liked them and he just about swallowed some of it and was like ‘that’s disgusting’. And toms dad was like I want to eat real food, not mush! Tom seems a little bit more calmer about it now still wants to be close by and that's partly coz my dad knows the consultant his dad saw and my dad (when he was in a better mood) reassured tom that this consultant likes exaggerate the truth a little. Holiday – tom meant just the two of us going somewhere, which I'm not too sure about, so my dad would probably be like 'no way'. Normally do go away as a family but who knows this year!

(Yeah, sorry, Scopes, but I've had to start winding the active-posting side of things down a lot for a while because it's prepare to villa-hunt and house-sell time, meaning, I'm also about to have the workmen in (oy-oy!). I'm so busy, now, it's just not funny!) Lils, he seems to be acting out a sense of his, that everyone else is 'against him' somehow. He might be having a belated reaction to having had to (in which case, it was real) turn down the open job offer now that the reconciliation's 'safely out of the way', the disappointment/readjustment (mini grieving process) having moved one step to the front of the queue. You need to get him on his own, put your hand on his shoulder-blade and give it a pat/rub while asking something (almost in a whisper) along the lines of, 'What's WRONG, lately, Dad [better yet, whatever parental pet name for him]? Why are you acting so unhappy and only wanting to spend time with [blister]? Can't you just tell me?' Alternatively, just follow him into an empty room, go up to him, and, saying absolutely nothing, give him a huge bearhug and back stroke-pat (and don't let him try to wriggle out of it - show him yer muscles). *Or* pick a flower (daff?) and leave it on his study desk. Just something. He appears to be hurting *a lot*, Lils. And that's not right, considering he did do the not un-meaty, right thing by backing down. In fact, he might consider it as heroic...yet didn't receive a hero's welcome? I mean, I don't think one can tell a hurting person one's BORED with their hurt, or basically threaten to exclude them from a family outing, if they haven't got to the bottom of it - which ***clearly*** they haven't if the behaviour's continuing or even worsening - can you? I mean, if his source of unhappiness has basis - even if it's a hugely delayed reaction from months ago - that would hurt *really* deeply. Plus, labelling him bad-tempered right before getting in the car would just exacerbate his already bad mood. So I don't call that very empathetic behaviour, do you? She sounds like she's dealing merely with the What and not the Why...sweeping whatever it is under the carpet. He might be going through the male menopause and feeling hyper-sensitive for all we know? (Has he been complaining of being cold or turning the heating up/wearing more clothes than usual, lately?) But it does also sound like he feels like he's lost his pack status, authority and the normal control that goes with it (and clearly he originally was after an elevation in that sense, hence the practise move). I think his sense of self-esteem needs to be fed again, I don't think the card, etc., or being back home again, was enough. In which he must have been too 'hungry', almost starving, to begin with. Meanwhile, I think maybe the power of winning that giant round has maybe gone to your mum's head a bit too much (common reaction) and she needs to find a happier balance back to equal partners with equal pack leader status or she's in danger (again, common aftermath situation) of simply having switched boss-secretary roles, thereby *continuing* the original problem. Er. Wait up. Do you mean slammed it in your face accidentally? More detail, please? He was probably trying to see if he could still command your (the mini-mum's) respect. Answer: no. But he set himself up there, with that ridiculous curfew (you're not 10). So that tells me that, yes, he's feeling *very* sorry for himself (in which case it could be because no-one else is or because little blister's moral support isn't enough) and trying to solicit or even create evidence for how he feels (in order to feel justified rather than crazy) from the environment. IOW, he was bound to get non-compliance with such an OTT curfew time, but in his eagerness to 'take your temperature', he made damn sure he'd get a meaty-enough reading in one, fell swoop by inserting it too far, so unwittingly created a negative self-fulfilling prophesy. (I'd put him at DefCon3. So's you know: 1 is situation normal/person normal, 5 is screeching, headless ape. He's feeling utterly wretched right now, probably feels like crying a lot but is converting that to the (yawn) "manly" version called angry, bulshy and over-domineering/aggressive, trying to over-milk the Disciplinarian aspect of the fatherly/parental positional role because Decision-Maker has been hogged by mum.) At the same time, I think your mum's being hard and insensitive (for her) due probably to her still having undischarged, left-over resentment in her which she doesn't know what to do with. They hurt each other more than they'd bargained for, I reckon, and are now too nervous to properly spill their feelings and show their hearts to one another. They've lost a portion of trust. It'll take time. Unless you want to help speed it up? You could easily approach either of them, now, though, couldn't you. I know your first attempt with Dad didn't work (because it was entirely the wrong moment - you can't ask a man to switch immediately from anger to open, honest sharing-ness) but, that in itself was his unwitting test - to see if you'd chase after him = how badly you want Normal Dad back, how important he is. He's feeling far too vulnerable for communicating through his mouth (that way lies the danger of disappointment, rejection, etc.), and basically instead is containing it to a load of bodily and behavioural signals. ***************** "Oh, Jamie would probably quite happily sit in tom’s car and wind him up coz he’s a cocky/very self assured idiot." That's what I thought. I've seen the play a thousand times, see, and it's in Jamie's character's script (Act 4, Scene 3). Well, look, here's an idea: If, in the car, you (because this is your relationship-protection show this time) hear Jamie try any dig at Tom or can see Tom tense up, trying just doing one, very loud, contrived-sounding cough, wait two beats, and then turn your head slowly, just enough to peer at Jamie out of the corner of your right eye (and keep repeating if necessary). "Cut it out!" is what that'll say. If he persists, switch to addressing all conversation only at Tom. And if that isn't enough, let Tom stop and kick him out. After all, it's only money (compared to your enviable relationship), and who cares anyway if 'your employer' is a constant trouble-maker. You need that like a fish [called Jamie] needs a bicycle! "I'm starting to teach little kids piano and guitar after school, which is a nicer way to earn money." Are you???? Blimey! How entrepreneurial! (And what a lovely, subtle but noticeable gesture of loyalty from you to Tom!) Impressed!! Can't Tom's dad make his own concoctions out of whatever healthy ingredients so that he *does* like the taste? (That's a trick for getting kids to eat healthily, btw - let them be heavily involved or in-charge of making it so that they have to choose between deeming it yummy or ending up insulting and belittling the chef - they themselves! And they ain't gonna wanna do that. ;-)) ************ Back to your dad. I'd wait a while before raising the topic. Again, not the right time. ...although it is if secretly you're hoping to get a No so as to get your dad to indirectly turn Tom down for you? But if you don't know then you're torn, meaning, there's no point in informing your parents until you better know how *you* feel about going. In fact, the fact you're *not* sure is directly married to the fact that your dad would be unlikely to say an immediate yes (see how that works?). Anyway, why couldn't you do both holidays? Or what about Tom coming with you guys?

Parents have been ignoring each other since Sunday and my mum has been going out with friends in the evenings this week to avoid my dad and my dad just sits and doesn't really do much :-/. It's kinda gone back to how they were when they were separated but just under one roof. All communication between them has gone. I haven't really seen or spoken to my mum much just because she's not been home much apart from the mornings. And they're not even sleeping in the same room at the moment. I know this wasn't going to be easy for them but none of this feels right, it feels like it going backwards. Thinking about it now my mum wasn't being very empathetic and at the moment doesn't seem to want to get to the bottom of it, which is not really her, normally she cares too much but she's seems to of hardened a bit. she seems to be quite happy to just ignore him! And no I don't think it has been regonised by any of us that he has backed down and not take that job offer. I haven't tried speaking to my dad yet. But I liked the idea of picking some flowers from the garden and I put them on my dads desk in his study because he likes gardening. when my dad saw them he asked me hopefully if my mum had put them there, I told him no, I did and he looked a bit disappointed but since then he's been ok-ish with me and the sibs and he's surgested going out tomorrow just me and him, where I'm hoping he'll open up a bit and be more willling to talk. If not I'll wait a bit. From where I was standing slamming the door wasn't accidental but it's the first time he's done that. He ranted at me for coming back 'too late' and went on about how he and my mum are very relaxed when I go out at the weekends but on a school night he wants me home earlier *rolls eyes* and I was like but it's not even 9.30! Then I asked what was going on and why was he being so angry and he just said 'don't even go there' and I questioned him more and that's when he slammed the door :-/. That was a definate 'f off' and I might of pushed it a bit. He had been on his own, my mum went out as soon as we got home from lunch on Sunday so he had been alone for a while probably thinking alsorts :-/. But he hasn't followed through his stupid new rule of being home stupidly early when I did go out one night this week. Understanding my dad a bit more now as in why he's being like this and almost feel sorry for him (even if he has been unreasonable and mean) and don't like the fact he's hurting and my mum is ignoring! so tonight was Chinese and movie night with my dad, tom and the sibs...my mums out again. I was hoping she'd see us and be tempted to stay but She still went :-(. **** Tom had great pleasure in telling Jamie that he was doing the driving to the wedding and has only agreed to give him a lift so that we are both there together not because he's a 'friend' and he will be getting looks from me if he winds tom up. Jamie's face and reaction was surprised and I also him to offer petrol money too. Sorted. Yep I think toms dad could sort out his own food I just don't think he's trusted by toms mum into sticking to healthy and he'll push the the boundaries a bit. Tom and his dad are quite similar in personality (or this is just a boy thing) they like to test things sometimes for fun to see what kind of reaction they get. Piano and guitar lessons wasn't my idea, but dunno why I hadn't thought of it before coz word is getting round! my mums friend has 7 kids and she wants them ALL to learn an instrument and asked me if I would teach them :-/. I like teaching the older ones but her two youngest are too young, in my opinion, only just four, and they just bash the keys on my piano +0( and run around the room... but the mum is very relaxed about it 'as long as they are listening to music', er not quite...it feels like I'm just babysitting them for half an hour. Think I need to get some teaching skills from my mum! Ohhh both holidays...I think I might need two by then. i like the idea of tom coming with us on holiday (Y) and getting used to the idea of just the two of us going somewhere I think I just need to think about it and ended up thinking why the hell not!

Ohhhh LIL sorry to hear that things have digressed a bit. It sounded like things were going so well a few months back with your mum and dad. I must ponder on this

Hey Lils, [Insert broken-record snippet about lateness] "Qvestions": 1a. Mum had gone out again WHERE? 1b. Did your dad used to be the one who'd go out on his tod, in the years running up to the recent separation? Or did he tend to frown on your mum having girlie nights out, etc?...or simply, tend to commandeer the lion's share of her time and attention? 1c. When you say 'Chinese and movie night', was that a family tradition or one started only with your dad during the separation? 2. When you say 'not accidental', do you mean he meant to slam the door to "make you stop" but *hadn't* intended it to hit you in the face? Or are you trying to tell me he knew it would make impact? Where in the face - nose? Did you have a nosebleed or anything? Did he say anything later as an apology (or 'say' it with any behaviour/gesture later)? 3. *How* far did you push? And be brutally honest with yourself. Put it this way, do you have lingering feelings of hurt and resentment or still feel disturbed by the event? 4. Both of your parents are clearly very (veryveryveryvery) stressed. Have you spoken to them or either of them since you posted, and what, if anything, is their attitude at this point to the idea of couples counselling or even enlisting the help of an online relationship coach (guru)? Comments: Of course he didn't follow through, he was only trying to get your attention and create an excuse to have a go at you "for not loving him/being on mum's side (i.e. not his)", etc. and generally let off steam. An insecurity wobble "manlied-up" (not), basically. Already-somewhat-emotionally-immature now in a foetal-position-rendering-situation, remember? Same goes for your mum, that's what they've got most in common, IMO. I did say 'welcome to so-called adulthood', right? But, yet again, it's not fair on you guys, to make you live under that kind of atmosphere. Lils, if I were your fairy godmother, granting you complete license to do whatever you damn well pleased in order to get them to start actually sorting this nonsense rather than power-playing in front of you minis - what would your measure(s) look and sound like? If you can't think, here's what I'd do: dig out a family photo of when you three were really small and leave it on your mum's desk or dressing table. It'll work the same way as the flowers. In other words: they want everything acted-out? THEY GOTTIT! ;-) ...which is the least of what I'd like to do to them (grr). In fact, I'd really like to put them both - same time preferably! (I'm ambidextrous so I could 'n all) - over my knee and spank their butts until they glowed! Would you let me, though? LOL Interesting, though, isn't it - the fact your dad was hoping they were from your mum? So she's the one that's p*ssed *him* off, then? ************** Re you & Tom: 1. Did he??? Did you??? Tell that to Jamie's face??? Yikes! :-D Nah, only joking. But, heyyyyyyy, liking the 'power couple super-assertiveness', there! Now the only uncomfortable one during that whole journey will be Jamie. As it should be (action-consequence). Go and parent the world, you two, you're clearly qualified! :-) 2. Similar, as in, both try-it-on merchants who'll push buttons and give the fences a good testing push/kick? Yep, that is indeed typically male and nothing to write home about, albeit, saying that, it's never (talking generally) the What per se, but the *To What Degree* (too much being abusive, not enough being equally abusive) and *Where*: As a female nearest-and-dearest, you want the "urrr!", directed to a purely sufficient degree, most of the time at those (that deserve it) outside of the nest. Assertive is far more sexy than disproportionately aggressive, is it not. :-) *********** Re your new career: "Piano and guitar lessons wasn't my idea, but dunno why I hadn't thought of it before coz word is getting round! my mums friend has 7 kids and she wants them ALL to learn an instrument and asked me if I would teach them :-/. I like teaching the older ones but her two youngest are too young, in my opinion, only just four, and they just bash the keys on my piano Sick and run around the room... but the mum is very relaxed about it 'as long as they are listening to music', er not quite...it feels like I'm just babysitting them for half an hour. Think I need to get some teaching skills from my mum!" Ooh. Fate moves in mysterious ways (not really, if you're used to it). That's a Karma Kredit if ever I saw one. For having been so good. :-) The 'beelzebubsters' (;-)) are for breaking you in in record time, I reckon, (meaning, something really good is brewing, something for which this condensed training will stand you in excellent stead yet without which you'd fail, you wait and just watch your space....) But you've given me an idea (if you like it - grab it quick because, remember, we're 'in public' so someone else might pip you to the post): Babysitting and music-lesson/-play in-one. For toddlers up to (before they get lippy)-years-of-age. Think about it. Never been done (I don't think?). Definite market for it, for the time-short exec set. Justification for charging greater than a pure music lesson, ditto pure babysitting (emphasis usually on sitting). The career and cultural parents, etc., will love it! You've got your Tumbletots so...How's about something like ('scuse the brainstorming)?..... Sonateenies (and Sonateens) Play Time Nanna Joanna [the latter's Cockney Rhyming for "piana") Decrescendo Put A Lid On It [ha-ha] Kidenza [a play on Cadenza] Tickled Plink! SolEtude [it'd be safe to assume your clientele were themselves musical and could instantly work out the multi-levelled meanings contained in this one] Tinkle Tykes Tempo Tots (Teens) Strings 'n Things (shambady shtop meh!) Obviously, you'd have to find a way to pepper the 'lessons' with freeplay, a run around the garden, snack time, reading them a story (babysitter duties..sorry, *good* b/sitter, I should say!) as well as formulate a lot of short little tunes that podgy hands with practically zero attention span could handle, but - what do you think? Piano lessons (London and SE) £15/hour. Babysitting £8 (SE) £11 tops (London). Total £23/hour, shave some off to represent a bargain for the two services combined...say, £18/hour (with a discount for single parents/divorcees)? From the client's POV it beats straight babysitting hands-down, right? Also beats straight music lesson (for the fact that mum normally is expected to be present throughout), right? [all the mothers yell, "GOD, YES!!!", LOL] Or could you and your mum partner up and combine your skills? That way, you could charge even higher *and* could give each other much-needed breaks within the schedule? (After all of that - you're going to come back and say no/ugh!, now, aren't you, LOL.) Anyway, RSvP on the above Qs. (And tell Tom I said, 'Bond...Tom Bond' :-D)

Hello (Fairy godmother), Answers to questions: my mum had gone to a friends house...I'm assuming a girly friend. My dad never had a problem with her going out with friends before, normally he doesn't mind his own company. I think it was just because things were not ok between them and he was thinking the worst. Movie night on a Friday was kind of a thing before, Chinese was just a bonus. Sis and I carried it on when the parents separated, then bro and dad joined in and we carried it on again as a family thing when my dad moved back in. No, no nose bleed, he slammed the door to make me stop following him because if I am honest, I was angry (bye bye assertiveness) and throwing questions at him but don't think he meant for the door to hit me. He did actually apologise too and admitted that his anger hasn't been meant for me. I spoke to my dad last Saturday coz we went out for a run (one of our bonding things we were meant to start doing), which lasted about ten mins when he realised how unfit he was and was quite relieved when we came across a pub...good opportunity, I thought and he was in a listening mood. He seems to think they are struggling to 'get back to normal' and my mum is tteatibg him like a kid. he was willing to change and compermise but she's apparently setting rules and not listening to anything hes suggested/wants/needs and nothing feels very balanced or fair. I think I can see why that would put him in a bad mood but I'm now trying not to take sides! He said would try and patch things up with my mum, which he did try to do on Sunday, he approached her calmly but it went in a direction I wasn't exspecting at all. My mum ended up leaving and going to my aunts *rolls eyes* and took the sibs with her too, they didn't really have a choice! she wanted me to go but I made it very clear that I thought it was pointless and splitting up the family and her leaving wasn't going to solve anything and I had things to do at home. I did try to talk her out of it and that it was unfair the sibs and I get to have another crap half term but she told me she couldn't be around my dad at the moment. So I dunno who's p*ssed off who! They were at my aunts all week, and on Friday my aunt texted my dad and asked him to come and try and sort things out with my mum and take Harry and Sophia home because they weren't happy. He went on Saturday, and he came back looking pretty deflated with the sibs, but no mum . He told me that my mum had firstly got really angry at my aunt for telling him to come down because she didn't want to see him and she told him she doesn't want to be married to him anymore. Sibs backed this up and said she went mad, which is really out of character for her and I'm not happy that was said in front of them :-| . I'm trying to stay calm about this because I've learnt people don't always mean what they say, just gonna wait till my mum comes home. I'm really hoping she will before next Thursday coz it's my brothers birthday and he's already anxious that she's stayed at my aunts and he thinks she's not going to bother. I'm trying to think of how to make it a nice atmosphere for him :-/. With counselling my mum has just carried on seeing her counsellor but I don't really know what they think about marriage counselling or online. Will try bring it up. Haha, Yeah, I'd let you spank them :-D, wouldn't be against that, would bl**dy deserve it. They wouldn't let me behave in a similar way to how they are, so why should they get away with it? ***** On top of all of this, tom's gran died Last week and he's pretty gutted, obviously, couldn't of really happened at a worse time with the stuff that's going on with his dad, it's knocked him again. Was really unexpected and a shock coz she was like nearly 100 but when I met her she was very with it and quite feisty and told tom I was better then 'that blonde thing' (the ex) he brought with him last time ha. One day both of us will not have family crap going on. ***** Yeah, Jamie's now feeling really uncomfortable :-D. After we told him, he started asking me when tom wasn't around, Why I wasn't driving anymore? Why was tom coming? And he'd have to stay in his car or go somewhere coz only we are allowed in the Venue. Whatever, he clearly wanted a reaction from me or for me to give in. I did tell him if he didn't like he can get himself there and he was like 'no I need a lift' ...well zip it then! Will be pleased to get this wedding is out of the way. ******* I really like the idea of babysitting and music lessons and the idea of me and my mum joining together, I'm gonna pinch it and see what she thinks :-p . My mums friend does know that the lessons would only go up until I go to uni but I think it could also work in half terms too. Tom (bond) likes his new name and says does he get the fast car and all the cool boy toys? 8=)

Who you calling a fairy? ;-p Hello Pumpkin (just made meself laff!). Anyway, I prefer Glarey Foddermother. Actually - neither! LOL Where were we? Oh, yes... 1. Why are you assuming a girlie friend? (Do you even do assumptions?) What were the clues and pointers? 2. "I think it was just because things were not ok between them and he was thinking the worst." Or because she was the one p*ssed HIM off at this point in time yet was running away rather than sorting it? Do you think maybe because he was the one who was still sporting egg on his face, he might have 'deliberately' made a mountain out of a molehill (like he did with your toddler's curfew)? How is mum looking during all of this - really cheesed-off and/or snooty/curt, or guilty and evasive/avoidant and mock-chirpy? Why would he be thinking the worst? Is she suddenly Mrs Ever So Sure Of Herself?...what-you'd-call swanning around, sounding and acting uncharacteristically cocky? Or is she more Mrs Not Taking Your Nonsense, like when a toddler pushes its mum too far - all clipped sentances and emotional distancing, etc? 3. Who started the movie thing, originally - her or him? 4. PHEW! Nothing to see... Just wanted to check. 5. "which lasted about ten mins when he realised how unfit he was and was quite relieved when we came across a pub...good opportunity, I thought and he was in a listening mood." :-D for him and a thumbs-up for you for seeing and seizing the opportunity. 6. Okay, you've answered my question. Treating him like a kid. She's lost some respect (unsurprisingly). Basically he's been striking her as a kid. Well, he's going to have to re-earn it, then, isn't he. Why - what did HE think? That the recent event wouldn't/couldn't have caused any lasting damage or that bomb-blast sites don't have to be re-filled afterwards once the smoke's completely cleared? Bit naive, isn't it? Good, then. Consequence. However, she's not being very clever about it, is she. Too obvious. It's striking his consciousness and giving him something to rail against. Much better to deliver it under-the-table (- u-t-t isn't a bad thing, it's misuse of u-t-t that's bad) so as not to insult the 'person' whilst 'educating/disciplining' the inner animal regarding negative consequences for neg actions. Yup, the power's gone to her head, hence why she's 'flaunting' her new-found power out in the open (she may as well just stick her tongue out at him and be done with it). That's not power, that's just bitter posturing. (Please can I use a wet flip-flop?) "I think I can see why that would put him in a bad mood but I'm now trying not to take sides!" TAKE THE SIDE OF *THE RELATIONSHIP* BY IN THE MEANTIME ALWAYS AND ONLY TAKING THE SIDE OF WHOMEVER IS RIGHT OVER WHICHEVER POINT/ISSUE. That way, you're not siding with any person, just TRUTH/RIGHT -V- WRONG/SENSIBLE & MATURE -V- NON-. And make that clear: I'm not on your side OR mum's side, I'm on Mum & Dad's side and that's the only side that exists anyway - surely?! 7. He pissed her off. With his original unilateral, giant, family-jeopardising decision. Those two couldn't bear to remain apart, found it too hard on their hearts....but because of that, they ended up trying to reconcile a smidgen too soon. That mum's flounced off (THIS TIME, NOTE!!!) (evening the playing field before recommencing the relationship properly) is not necessarily a bad thing. But what counts is (still) the willingness to try ...or to even flounce. Maybe the reconciliation was just a run-up type of sampling? Still doesn't make it fair on you three, though, does it. (When I say wet flip-flop, I do mean sales-promotion sized, just wanna make that clear.) 8. "because she didn't want to see him and she told him she doesn't want to be married to him anymore." Rot. You're right. Said in anger doesn't count. Only calmly when in Neutral counts. So it's rot. She's having a giant delayed reaction. Probably didn't dare let all of her high emotions spill out in the open, previously. Until it felt safe enough to. Only, when she finally tried he wouldn't let her. And there/here you go. He doesn't want to handle the consequences of his transgression. Berbom. He'd finished reacting to it all...'ergo' he expected *mum* to put it all instantly behind her! Typical female-ignorant, confrontation-avoidant male. 9. "he's already anxious that she's stayed at my aunts and he thinks she's not going to bother." Oh, AS IF! But you realise he's voicing that to you as a hint to remind her 'just in case'? (Let me know if (big If) she does, though?) 10. I do think it's better and far more logical to be having couples counselling (albeit, that doesn't mean she can't continue alongside with the one-on-one). After all, this is a problem in the interaction of both of them, ergo, only one of them representing and discussing it means only half the problem to examine...bit like a court judge passing judgement after having heard only the case for the prosecution but not the defense or vice-versa. Mistrial/Mis-sentance / Mis-ID/Mis-solve. Yes, in cases where the partner refuses to attend, it's better than nothing. But it shouldn't be the first choice. 11. "They wouldn't let me behave in a similar way to how they are, so why should they get away with it?" Beautifully put, nucleic truth, inarguable with. Maybe SAY that to them?? Sincere letter time? You and auntie write it jointly as the only other two adults in the immediate fam? ************* Aw. Poor Tom. Poor BOTH of you! After all, your childhood died rather abruptly, just recently, didn't it? ************* So WAS Tom allowed in the venue in the end? ************* What if the biz took off - would you still go to Uni or would you decide to do the Open Uni instead whilst building up your biz, or consider it a gap-year career? There again - why NOT just half- and end-of-term times? That, after all, is when career mums most need childcare/clubs, isn't it? PERFECT! In fact, if you were fully booked during the hols, you could end up earning such good money you wouldn't even NEED to do it full-time, you never know! ************* It depends whether we're talking Sean Connery or whassisface broody muscley blonde geezer (tsk - forgotten his name, can't be bothered to Google, but you know the one). But - either: Tom gets you. :-) And that's gadgets and buttons enough, tell him, LOL. And tell him: she should be mainly stirred, rarely and only gently shaken. ....and that's about it for Bond puns, puns Bond because it's OH-MY-GOD-o-clock! "Layderz".

This is just going to keep going on isn't it. Let's see if we can make this thread last til December bet we can. BTW LILS i like cool boy toys fast car stuff too.

December which year?

Hmmmmmmmm....2018 maybe?

I say, how incredibly unambitious! LOL Oh, and, by the way - come the time when I'm absent for a while, doing the house and country move, guess who's going to be filling in for me? :-D

Do tell..... I wish we could attach pics here. I have picture I took today at work in the parking lot of a classic triumph early 70s tr6 red complete with front bumper British flag.

I'll give you a clue: it ain't me and it ain't Lily. :-) PS: Ooh - British flag! [smirk]

Ummmmmm I give up MANALONE? SUSIEDQQ?

Tsk/god...so coy, tsk. When EVER were Susie and Mannie on this thread, eh? But, okay, here you go: IT'S YOOOOOOU. (Now's the bit where you feign surprise, LOL)

Awwwww c'mon..... Well ok

BTW Soulmate when's the country move going to start? LILS i have a direct email connection to this thread. So if you respond or if anyone responds it's almost like texting ;-)

Impossible to say specifically right now, but am weeks away from being able (once a few repairs and tart-up touches are done) to put this place on the market first, see what the interest and offers are, then go out there to view my shortlist of fave villas. Hopefully one will live up to the details enough to warrant making an offer/potentially placing a holding deposit. So it depends on myriad non-controllable elements. But I'd give you and Lily ample notice of my absence and for how long, no worries, and same again for my absence during the actual move and settling-in process itself. Obviously whichever choice would have to provide interweb or it'd be a no go. But, happily, most do, nowadays. :-)

Hey, My mum came back on Tuesday but not back home she is staying with a friend, because she 'can't be at home at the moment'. Just gets better and better :-|. So if the sibs and I want to see her we have to go round her friends house, which is awkward because we don't really know her, she's a fairly new friend from my mums work. And we/I can't have a private conversation with my mum because her friend (will use the first letter of her name to make it easier) J is very defensive of my mum and hangs around and butts in with her opinions of what's going on and of my dad... her opinion of my dad is low and she doesn't even know him. I know it's her house and she can go where ever she wants so I did try to get my mum to come out but J was like 'no, I don't think your mum should be going anywhere she's very stressed'. Wasn't suggesting running a bl**dy marathon, she can still sit and talk. It wasn't going to be just about what's going on , I was going to talk other stuff in general too (wanted to tell her about biz idea) and after a week and a bit of not seeing her I don't think there was anything wrong with that :-|. My mum didn't say anything so I'm guessing she's not ready. J might be being like this for a reason, which would mean she knows more then I do(?) but she's not very encouraging or giving any ideas in how to make things better. Don't want be rude about her but she's not helping and I think she thinks she's now involved because she's letting my mum stay with her for as long as she wants. Tell me if I'm being mean, or if another way of looking at this? J is the same friend my mum has been going out with and who's house my mum went round on Mother's Day I know that much. My mum also seems quite influenced by her. pleased I said to my bro that me and sis would do whatever he wanted, within reasonable distance before he had me driving far away to some geeky museum. Might of been disappointed otherwise. He decided he wanted to go to a dock yard place (zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz) . He didn't want a friend to come just Tom, made it more bearable :-D. Ugh, we had to do a hours long tour on how boats were made in first World War or something obvs wasn't listening, and there was more, but bros bday, he enjoyed it (Y). Was obvious my mum and dad were not going to be together for his bday, my dad was working, to be fair he got called into work and did make it up to bro later. My mum saw bro for a bit in the morning but she didn't want to come with us, which since my dad couldn't I was kinda hoping she would. Did feel like saying fine you stay, don't worry we'll make sure H has a good day :-|. It's a bit sh*t at the moment. Im at my aunts house, Tom is now in Cornwall and my aunt encouraged me to come stay, so I though it was a good idea and maybe we could write a joint letter like you suggested. I don't really know what else to do. ****** Don't think tom is too bothered if he allowed on the venue or not he'll find something. But have just thought he could have the job of 'sound/tech man' :-D . ****** At the moment I feel like I want to run away to uni. Like the idea of being a counsellor of some sort and like biz idea too but I think doing that in half term would work. Tom is thinking of taking a gap year he wants to see where his job he does at weekends takes him I'm not keen a long distance relationship but he doesn't seem to think it would be a problem. Hmm. **** Ahhh! scopes 2018? hopefully not on my parents still :-/ Might be stupid question but What's direct email connection? How does that work?

Being mean? GOD, no! You're observing a Red flag because there's nothing wrong and everything right with your vision! As long as she wants, eh? Huge Scooby clue. Find a way to signal to your mum to proceed with caution. This friend sounds as if she's trying to do more than curry favour, and actually take ownership of your mother. (Over-Lonely, Love-Bombing woman alert!) Rent is being extorted in the form of a currency called, BE MINE. I mean, that is not protection, that is CONTROLLING, DOMINATING, TAKING OVER, COMANDEERING, TAKING GROSS LIBERTIES past the mere point of meddling...and your mother is vulnerable (too distracted to realise its weight or magnitude) right now. Talk to her straight, say you miss being alone with her, just she and you, and (if you want) ask her if you and she can start to have a routine girlie evening or lunchdate per week. Say you need help with clothes shopping if you have to and need her advice and wisdom about Tom (normal stuff but you - cough! - haven't got a clue). Saying that, your mother is not stupid nor a totally helpless child. So if someone other than herself tries to tell her your father is Purple with Green spots whereas she knows for a fact he's flesh coloured but with a few blackheads, it won't 'ping' in her head as true and she'll dismiss it. Her state of vulnerability just means it'll get sneaked in past her conscious 'doorman' to her jello and into her Pending tray where it'll sit until the top in-tray is clearer, WHEREUPON her consciousness will properly read it, realise it's a load of rubbish and file it accordingly into the 'round filing cabinet that sits on the floor'. It's just an issue by way of TIME TAKEN to get to that point. But still an issue that could cause side effects. However, during this lunch or drink, you could say, 'By the way, why does J sound like she despises dad so seethingly much? What did he ever do to *her*?'. However, Lily, there's another possibility, which is... Who's influencing *whom*? That J, in grossly overdoing the instant loyalty, is quoting the opinion of your mother according to the reading-out of the rap-sheet when the two of them are in private... mum just naturally painting him over-Black out of anguish and anger... J not understanding or appreciating (i.e. choosing to ignore) mere, cathartic VENTING, thus rendering herself as thick as pig sh*t by (gleefully) taking everything at surface value and treating it as if gospel...because it suits her personal, selfish agenda to. Still/whatever, if you ask mum that perfectly rightful, observational question - i.e. just as part of interested chit-chat between two gals - then you'll be subtly but effectively getting her to examine how out-of-proportion her present attitude and sentiments are, by repeating it in summing-up fashion. However, I can understand perfectly your outrage at this woman. I mean, how *dare* she play uninvited, personal security guard toward YOU, your mum's own child! FOR WHAT PURPOSE? In case you get a knife out and stab her? Ridiculous! That's not protection, that's competition and possessiveness. I would have felt like decking her at that point! In fact, I'd be on the phone to Auntie before you could say, 'Help, I suspect mum's about to unwittingly get caged like some bloody pet hamster!'. Her sister will not stand for that, you watch. But if that fails - relay the incident to your dad. However.... this J can't get her way unless your mother *lets* her. So you have the option to try the girlie chit-chat approach first to see if it'll snap her out of her daze, enough to take a longer, harder look at this "oh-so-helpful colleague". Re your bro: Did you lose the start of that paragraph? Well, anyway, I'm assuming that was his birthday outing? That was very kind and self-sacrificial of you (in subjective principle because I personally would have found that tour fascinating, SOZZIEEEE, lol). Ahh, just Tom. That's nice. :-) Because - yes, he did want a friend along, but he wanted that friend to be Tom. Tom's in! :-) Tom will now start to become bro's confidant elect. "Was obvious my mum and dad were not going to be together for his bday, my dad was working, to be fair he got called into work and did make it up to bro later. My mum saw bro for a bit in the morning but she didn't want to come with us, which since my dad couldn't I was kinda hoping she would. Did feel like saying fine you stay, don't worry we'll make sure H has a good day Speechless." Oh god. She's on the floor. CALL AUNTIE, QUICK. (Quick aside: warning: don't give me and thereby the world name initials, keep yourself as anonymous as possible now; you've given away enough information already. Bro and sis, etc., will do. And don't ever, whatever you do, give yours or your parents or auntie's names. If you ever reveal too much, I'll have to delete your post, meaning, you starting your post all over again. I know it's easy to forget yourself in your predicament, but...that's precisely one of the things I'm here for, "innit!" :-)) Yes, it's a bit sh*t. But it's temporary. It's just mum's turn, that's all. It's about equality, isn't it, and the woman SHOWING the man how much what he himself did, hurt. Means he's not used his empathy and imagination nor is listening or taking her complaint of pain and victimisation at his hands, seriously enough. He's minimising his crime out of guilt, in other words, and it's served only to add gross insult to already gross injury...and here's her reaction/decision: taste of own medicine (but bitterer......'the female of the species is more deadly than the male'). If afterwards dad thinks that makes it *his* turn again, they might become doomed, maritally. No, it won't be, it'll be DUCE and no Advantage to either. So I hope he won't, and I hope he won't feel he has to out of the fact she's given him what counts as *two* doses as opposed to his one or else he *will* have the egotistical urge to equalise the scoreboard. Auntie needs to wade in and knock heads again. Perhaps auntie and new man too, assuming he's her Like? I mean, CLEARLY your mother and father aren't coping with this marital crisis, whereby coping means, not letting it affect and detriment the kids' lives and welfares in any permanent sense. But here we have your mum too on-the-floor to involve herself in her baby son's birthday. NOT GOOD. So if they won't do what needs to be done in seeking professional intervention then 'the wise woman of the woods' and any assistant of hers will be a vast improvement on EFF ALL. ...Or start with the joint letter, yes. ANY action is better than none right now. ********* *Why* isn't Tom allowed in the venue? Or is that just what Jamie told you and is pure BS? *********** Talking of BS (albeit this being the 'rightful' kind): Tom is "THINKING OF"....what do you think about that, Lily? Do you mind? Do you care? Enough, possibly, to cry or rear up and start an argument? ;-) BUTTON-PUSH ALERT! Testing The Water variety. What reaction did you give? And did it lay it on thick enough/play the game? ;-) Or did you play Silly Poker back and say, 'Oh, well...maybe you're onto something, maybe *I* should think about farther-flung fields too, then?....New places....(cough!) NEW PEOPLE...?'. *********** Nah, I'm sure Scopes meant just blog-wise. ************ He means when you elect (in your Profile) to receive email alerts that someone's just posted on a thread you've participated in (this case, yours). PS: 'Might be a stupid question'? 'Am I being mean'? You're the least stupid and least mean young woman of your age I've ever met (bar my son's gf)! Repeat: EVER! Where's that sass and confidence gone all of a sudden, why are you apologising for yourself without having committed any crime?

Lils, talk to me, what's happening?

Been meaning to send this all day! Yeeeeeah, I was soooo fed up last week, really didn't want to be at home and lost all confidence but that was put firmly back in place after being with my aunt for a few days. she took one look at me and was like. 'omg, whats going on now?!' She knows me too well, I must of looked like crap and she wouldn't let me leave till I looked better :-/. Also got a text message from Holly, which was very mixed, not exactly nice but wasn't horrible either, replied a really short reply but really couldn't be bothered with her, it just added to the stress! Auntie is really p**sed off because she had no idea what going on till I told her what's going on. She said my mum acted like she was going home to sort everything out, not go and stay with a friend. She doesn't like the sound of this friend but at the moment she can't come and bash heads again coz she always looking after my cousins baby but did say she would be calling my mum. Hmm aunties bf is really nice but he's really, really, really shy and o thought I was shy! I'm sure there is more of a personality that at the moment she only gets to see. Did come out of his shell a bit when auntie dragged us out for what was meant to be one drink ...in the end my cousin had to come and pick us :-/ and I'm sure he I thought I was the bad influence!!! Er no! More clear now! Really, really don't like this women (my mums friend) she's deffinately giving the wrong kind of encouragement to my mum and definitly taking her role far too seriously but I don't know what my mum is saying to her either she could be exaggerating. Mums friend is now acting like the sibs and I are being a pain in the a*se, like yesterday she just opened her front door, looked at us and walked off without saying anything (hi to you too you...Witch), it was arranged! Think she is lonely, shes not married and by the sounds of it doesn't like men (or kids :-/) and not exactly a warm and welcoming person, more like ice queen. But worried she's turning my mum that way! I have told my dad what is happening but he is doing nothing and thinks my mum will come back if and when shes ready since shes the one who doesnt want to be at home, helpful as ever. argh! I'm seeing my mum later on tonight (ek soon!), its taken me two days to try and pin her down and get to to agree with meet up with me(she's been reluctant?!) on her own WITHOUT her friend coming along, I really had to make that clear coz she kept mentioning her coming along too. And I will be innorcently be asking questions about her friend and pinning her down for more outings lunch dates coz I really miss her not being at home :-( . She did promise to go dress shopping with me fora form a sixth form leavers thing, ugh, really wasn't bothered about going but it's something I can hold her to. ******* Think tom will be allowed, Jamie is BS, because hes now asked a friend to come play with us, of course the little git is expecting Tom to give his friend a lift too, will remind about petrol money, think he's expecting us to forget! :-|. ****** Ah button pushing again!! Didn't see like that's thought tom was being serious but didn't give him much of a reaction. I think it's a load of crap, he's always pretty clear what uni he wants get into and what he want to study/do career wise. cooking is more of a hobby/something to fall back on. His work place just want to train him up. He did make me think about a gap year too, but I want that. He'll probably try again (?) and I'll be ready!

LILS cooking to me is a pain in the ass. However I do it because I have to eat. Now some people love to cook in a culinary fashion because it truly is an art. This friend of your mum is is well......hmmmmm... a bit of a strange sort.

I'm the same with cooking Scopes, and I usually get distracted and burn things too :-/. Little update - my mum is saying that staying with her friend isn't going to be long term thank god. BUT she wants her own place and doesn't want to be with my dad anymore :-(. She told me this last Thursday and I was upset but angry too because they only gave it, what like 2 weeks of my dad being back home. I've met up with her quite a lot of times and no amount of talking is changing her mind. She's still p*ssed off with my dad about even considering the job and leaving the family and she says he turned into what his dad was like (my grandad) mood swings etc and my dad apparently told her he would never be like his dad. This bit is kinda true coz my mum (when they the grandparents were alive) used to have the grandparents round to stay most weekends so she could keep an eye on my gran who my mum says was unhappy. She seems to think she won't be happy in the future and says that she's spoken to my dad about this lot. I think my dad does look at how he behaves, and he does try to change he still making a big effort to do things with me and sibs. it's not all the time that he is like this, but when he is in a bad mood it can last for days and he's not easy to live with. My next plan is to plant the letter my aunt and I both wrote, but who knows if it will have any effect. Er yeah my mums friend is more then strange, I think she's quite bitter for what ever reason. :-/

Actually LILS I can cook up some fairly tasty food it's the prepping and the cleanup I hate. This time of year doing it up on the barby. I was going to leave a comment about your mum's friend but there were too many yous and yours in it.

Good GRIEF, has it really been two whole weeks since I had time to post?! I've no idea where the time's gone! Sorry, Lils, amongst other pressures, I've got home improvements contractors in at the mo. Mayhem. Hope you're still looking out for alerts? Anyhoo... I think your mum is having a delayed reaction. In fact, I was rather waiting for it. I think your dad wound her up so incredibly much that she's having trouble coming down again as soon as everyone would like. Still, at least she sounds as if she's already getting a gutful from Little Miss Over-Helpful, so methinks it'd seem there's some light at the end of the Sensible tunnel. What's the latest on that score? It could well *be* that your dad decided to try his dad's shoes on. It happens a lot as part and parcel of a Mid Life Crisis and is an endeavour to get to grips with a parent's (usually bad) behaviour by evoking the same feelings and attitudes through replicating as closely as possible said behaviours, choices and decisions - this case, most likely the 'head of the household is king' attitude, going by that course-change attempt of his. Maybe he also wanted to see how your mum's reaction to an attempt to railroad differed from his own mum's? Risky experiment, though. As he know no doubt appreciates. But her decision has obviously re-cranked him into DefCon as well, hence his bitter, resentful "whatever" attitude towards this work colleague's attempted takeover. Has he since tried to talk to her? Or auntie? What did your joint letter say?

Soulmate as always you are a wealth of information and full of good advice. Believe it or not I have friends whom are going through the same things as you with contractors,improvements etc. LILS hopefully things are on the mend with your mum, as for Little Miss over-helpful hmmmmm...

Yeah still looking out for alerts. That makes a lot of sense :-). Er, little miss-over-helpful is taking my mum very seriously on wanting her own place and is 'helping' her look. Wouldn't be surprised if it was close to where she lives, but when my mum gets away from her I'll be happy. If she came back home that would be amazing, but she keeps telling me she doesn't want to when I talk to her about it :-(. She's adamant it's what she wants, her 'own space' as she puts it with room for sibs and I. My mums friend also wouldn't let sis see our mum last week...Sis was upset about something, wanted to talk to my mum and went round but was turned away by my mums friend who said she 'wasn't available'. She did just turn up but she should be able to see her mum if she needs to, could of been about anything and sis only wanted to talk to my mum about it coz she wouldn't even tell me! I ended up driving her round, called my mums mobile and she came out, apparently she had been in the shower. Mums friend said that she told sis she could wait if she wanted to but sis says she didn't say that and that she was aggressive :-/. Whatever happened, I think it's opened my mums eyes a little because she's been keeping in contact with all of us a lot since and wanting arranging things, go out more. I spent all day Saturday with her so I'm beginning to think she doesn't feel as comfortable there as she did in the first place. My dad does get told about what this friend is like and knows my mum doesn't want to come home but he's avoiding the whole situation/distracting himself at the moment by painting the whole of the house, instead of trying to talk to my mum or doing anything about it. He's gone into depressive mood again. Only person he has actually said something to is Tom but it was about me, I walked in on my dad saying to him 'I don't think she likes me very much and if she could, she'd be with her mum'. Don't dislike him, but I'm frustrated and stressed out with what's going on, which is what I told him and if tom wasn't there I probably would of said a lot more. Wasn't going to answer which parent I'd rather be living with, not like I have a choice! My dad didn't say anything he just very quickly changed the subject to uni which is another thing I'm stressed out and he knows this because we've been talking about it. He also knows I've been meaning to talk to tom about this , in private :-| but haven't really wanted to incase it turns into sh*tty discussion/argument...last time I confine in him! Tom was quite happy to go into detail about a gap year he's 'thinking' about but my dad ended it with the very helpful words of 'oh well, it will either make you or break you both'. I could just seen toms brain start to spiral and today he's has been his really quiet (not normal for him) . Thanks dad (Y) :-|. Felt like he was stirring things a bit too, to make himself feel better?! Letter, if I had it in front of me I would put what aunty and I came up with. It basically said that this has been going on for far too long and whilst we understand that it is painful for them and it's their marriage, it is not fair and the huge amount of stress it's had on me and sibs because of all the changes. They've have had a lot of time to think about what each of them wants and now is the time to start doing something about it, marriage counselling or whatever they think will help. And my aunt is always there if either of them need to talk to her. There was more, it didn't go on for too long but with think we covered everything. Aunty is both on their cases now she knows they've got the letter, my mum and dad are both just avoiding her, but she's said she's not going to back off and they can't ignore her forever.

(T'is the spruce-up season, Scopes. Plus, house prices are again beginning to fall slightly so, to counteract it, we're putting added Wow Factor into my garden, and today created yet another vignette out of a previously dead and purely utilitarian space in the widest part of the garden path just outside of and running horizontal to the glazed kitchen back door, now giving whomever (out of whichever couple that ends up buying this) is the chef their own little 'waiting for it to reach the boil', wine-quaffing territory in the form of a cosy (reed-fenced-backed) little gravel garden featuring tiny bistro table and chairs. Going to plant a dead Cherry Blossom branch as a bare but prettily-shaped mini-tree, and decorate it with tiny solar lights, a tiny wind-chime, a copy of Muscly Man Monthly, etc., etc., and will get my carpenter to make wooden, painted letters to spell 'Chef's Corner' (and might add, 'Those Not Cooking, Bog Off!')....the whole concept being perfecto through t' fact that spot year-round gets the evening rays at supper-cooking time. Aye, there is method in my madness even where concerns in-teeerr-ior desain, dwahling. The bad news is, I got stung by a stinging nettle and had forgotten how irritating that is. (Note to self: thicker gardening gloves or rubber gloves under gardening gloves. ....Hand sauna.) What was the question again??) ************** Lils, "Wouldn't be surprised if it was close to where she lives, " It'll be a rabbit hutch at the end of her garden. :-p I hope your mum likes carrots? ;-) Take a tip: cease asking, now. She wants it? Does-she?-Does-she? OH YEAH? Let her have it - ALL OF IT!!! Let's see if she actually finds THE REALITY of a divorcee's life an improvement on the perfectly open option of normal married and family life, shall we? How does it go?... "If you love something, Set it free It if comes back? It was always meant to be". After all, Lils, think about it: if your mum *could* find the former preferable to the latter then, really, she *should* get divorced from your dad - yes? However, isn't it funny that *before* dad went and threw sh*t into the fan, they were perfectly okay - to the tune of snuggling on the sofa! Nah, she just hasn't had long enough to calm down, let alone to properly think through the ramifications of her present-day actions. *Something* will 'shout out at her' to remind her that so-called freedom isn't always a bed of roses (not if your marriage isn't actually in itself critical, it isn't), don't you worry. Something always does. It grabs you by the scruff of the neck and pushes your face *right down* into that so-called Greener grass. Now, suddenly, you're aware that ALL GRASS features worms and poo, regardless of which side it's on. Oh, aye. Oh, good grief. Just read your next para about 'Lena The Leech' (as I'm now christening her). Somebody really needs to slap her face. (Metaphorically-speaking, I should swiftly add.) "I ended up driving her round, called my mums mobile and she came out, apparently she had been in the shower. Mums friend said that she told sis she could wait if she wanted to but sis says she didn't say that and that she was aggressive :-/." GOOD! EXCELLENT! Bullies of whatever variety, rely on their victims' SILENCE. Good on you both for grabbing the 'crime' from under the table and slamming it on the top! Keep that up. Block her from all angles. Just with the truth. "so I'm beginning to think she doesn't feel as comfortable there as she did in the first place." LOL - YA THINK? :-D No carrots for mum, then. Phew! But, here's the science bit: that your mum *attracted* a bully (possessor-controller-isolator) in the first place, shows us that she's still in victim mode thus giving off the whiff, thereby attracting your Lena type character. That's how it works. So if she's still in victim mode, she's still in high DefCon (3, 2 or 1) aka Fight Or Flight mode...stressed, panicky, jittery, overly negative, cloth-earned, (blind, deaf, dumb), very distracted.... She won't be capable of thinking straight, still. So - again - I'd be very surprised if this so-called life-course-change decision sticks. Very. "he's avoiding the whole situation/distracting himself at the moment by painting the whole of the house, instead of trying to talk to my mum or doing anything about it." Actually, that *is* him doing something about it. Just in blokie-action (mouth- and vulnerability-avoidance) way. He's making the house more attractive in the hope that it'll lure her back. Maybe it's something she's been asking him to do for yonks? It's not direct, though, I agree. But - you'd know? Is the painting/sprucing overdue thus somehow glaring indication on his part of his having upgraded his marital attitude, i.e. him putting his 'I'll do better, I promise!' money where his mouth is? Reckon your dad's more scared than depressed. Hence why he's combined a need to discharge negative energy in a productive, positive way (the depressed do not paint...not even their own toenails...not even *one* toe...."sigh...do I have to?....why cantcha jus' lea'me alone".... ;-)), with the other need to say, I'VE CHANGED ALREADY, LOOK, AND I'M SHOWING YOU HOW MUCH I WANT US TO STAY TOGETHER! (It's *kind of* talking, if you think about it?) Whether in her current state your mother will even notice the paintwork, is another matter. *COUGH!*. (LOL) ...And clearly still feeling sorry for himself ("meh-meh-MEH-meh-meh, Lily thinks I smell!"). And clearly still in DefCon manipulation mode because - what would have been the chances of Tom *not* telling you later, had you not walked in? (*Actions*) Course he would have. Plus - what about the likelihood of you walking in mid 'gossip', eh? Either/Or: Cue you now with the obligation to somehow say/show, 'NOOO, Da-da, you're THE GREATEST!'. Conclusion: He is deflated (but not depressed) and trying to create ways and means to pump back up his flailing ego. He can't manage it so he's trying to sneak it. (Still concerned with saving face, then.) But at least he's ceased trying to control your mam. (Tick!) He's set the [rolls eyes] "caged" birdie free. Yet has strewn the now open-doored cage floor with tasty seed. That's the way to do it! "Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey" is the saying I use. One banana, two banana, three banana, SNOG. Your dad has improved and your mother has deteriorated. Weathervane couple. Now he knows *why* women want to fix "now-now-now!". It's because they know that if the bloke carries it on for a moment too long - BAM! - FEMALE WRATH + SENDING-TO-COVENTRY TIME (everyone stand back!!!). He'll just have to bide his time. Welcome to her just-recent world, dad. :-p ******** Question, Lily: Do you think the house is looking distinctly better for his endeavours? ******** You're too old for parents. We could sit here and pretend you weren't, simply based exclusively on your on-paper age, but - "yawn", let's not. And your little blister's obviously very impressive too! (How's bro doing?) ********** WHY are you stressed about Uni? ********** "'oh well, it will either make you or break you both'." THERE IT IS! He's spouting the same philosophy as me, look ("if you love something..."). And practising that new-found attitude on you and Tom, simultaneous with the putting-it-into-*paint* effect. A test-run if you like. People do that a lot. You know that gobby woman in the supermarket who gives you OTT verbal What For for zero or inadequate reason (e.g. you accidentally hip-bumped her trolley)? She's on her way home to finally give her husband What For. ;-) But, yes, there would have been a tiny bit of, 'Don't think you and Tom are immune, you know, meh/mleugh', in there. ********** Sounds like an excellent letter to me, covering every base. "Aunty is both on their cases now she knows they've got the letter, my mum and dad are both just avoiding her, but she's said she's not going to back off and they can't ignore her forever." They can run, but they can't hide. Hee-hee. People say that about me. Can't think why? [smirk] "THE EMPEROR IS *NOT* WEARING CLOTHES, LET ALONE NEW ONES - ALRIIIIIIGHT, YOU LOT?!" LOL. Anyway, strange as it sounds, these goings-on are perversely positive. Nay worries, lass (as per). Tell me about your worries to do with Uni then?

Well, Aunty (and bf) turned up at our house yesterday, unannounced looking really p*ssed off. Even though I had no idea she was coming, I could kinda sense she was going to show up at some point and be on the war path, because she had been telling me how angry my mum and dad were making her by not responding to her calls :-/. when my dad saw her, I could tell what he was thinking 'sh*t, nooooooooo ' and he probably wanted to run a million miles but there was no where for him to go :-), so he had to face her and answer the questions that she started throwing at him after she told him she had a bone to pick with him and my mum hehe. Questions were like, why have you been ignoring me? Can't you understand that this is exsteamly frustrating for everyone and it's effecting your children's well being? When are you going to get this sorted out? What have you done to try and solve this? So what do you think of the letter lily and I wrote to you both? My dads reaction to her was fairly calm but aunty wasn't satisfied with all his answers. I think she could see he was trying and he said he's tried speaking to her but getting nowhere. So She then went off find my mum, dunno how that went yet. I'm hoping she saw my mums friend too and maybe put her in her place a bit too. I would of gone with her to see my mum but I had to go and meet up with Holly wasn't going to cancel on her (not that we're friends) again. I think my dad painting the house has made a difference, if he is doing it to try and get my mum to come round, then I'm not too sure how impressed she's going to be. I did tell her dunno if that was the right thing to do and she rolled her eyes and said 'I asked him to do that ages ago!' . Hmm keeping an eye on bro, he still shuts himself away sometimes but I think that's just coz he likes his own space. He's better then he was before, got more friends now and if toms around he's more talkative. I dunno what to do with uni now because I did a beginners counselling course that's just finished and I really, really liked it. It wasn't long but I found the tutor really engaging and didn't mind doing role plays, when I hate that kinda thing. Tutors feedback at the end of the course to me was to think about doing the year counselling course before uni. About a week ago she called me and talked to me about it and suggested maybe signing up for it anyway and I can always pull out if I don't want to do it. she's teaching the course too :-). That's how I ended up talking to my dad about it, because I Was confused, thought he'd have a bit more of an opinion - go to uni, but he doesn't really care. The bit I'm worried about is tom and if we're going to stay together, and its a bit scary coz i obviously really like him and don't want to loose him :-/. But I know a lot people who get together at school then don't last at uni coz of distance or whatever. I have now talked to him about this a couple times and told him about the counselling course but if I go into the things I'm really worried about like above, he gets irritated and repeats my name over and over again, which is really annoying because he thinks it's a way to get me to shut up, I don't, I just carry on and make my point. he then tells me I worry too much and I'm overthinking this. But he pushed the button to get a reaction from me and now he's not listening :-@. I am worring about really stupid things at the moment, not just uni/college/tom, it's also holly, parents and exams feels like my brain has gone into overload :-O

LILS looks like you have quite the eventful situation there. Now auntie is your mum's sis No? Hopefully she did confront little miss over-helpful. LILS you need to decompress a little you've got exams goin on. I'm in San Diego mom seems same as before. Giving her gourmet chocolate cake and roses.

Eyup, you two! I can't imagine Auntie refraining from confronting Leechiepoos, myself - can you? Not if Lena stood there doing her bouncer act. Which I'm sure she would have, since her boundless lack of boundaries lacks no bounds [- just invented a new tongue-twister, look]. Me, though, I'd have said to your dad, Then try HARDER, Fifi-Trixibelle! I mean, he was the one set mum off in the first place so - it's *his* job. *sigh*...what are we going to do with him, eh? I hope Auntie's charging them both by the hour? By now, I would be. And she said it all! Re your mum's 'ages ago' reaction over the painting. Yeah, that's what I suspected. Well, she can delude herself it's "toooo late no-oo-owwww, whingey-whinge-whinge" but whatever Conscious She thinks or doesn't think is by the by on this one. It's going to be up to her inner animal, ultimately; it's its show, not hers, always was. The fact remains that, that he's gone to that effort will not be getting lost on her sensible, rational side. The seed has been planted in her head and will start to do its magic (beans in exchange for a cow ;-))... All these under-the-radar, *seemingly* improperly noticed things help to calm a body down, whether we like it or notice or believe it'll effect or not. That and time. I wanted to know whether you could believably encourage your dad by making some sort of 'I'm impressed, don't stop there!' noises. Try it. You never know - if he actually runs as far as new carpeting throughout, he might get her agreeing to a meet-up out of it. Tell him to kill her with kindness in a strong, dignified manner, i.e. more of what he's doing. Good, bro sounds normal. Agree with your tutor. You're a natural. But ultimately it's your decision so, if you find you can't make one, go through the motions of one of them to see if you can actually take it all the way to the hilt. Let your feet do the talking. If it's not the right decision underneath all that fear-chatter in your head, your [her again] inner animal won't let you (bit like when you type a snarky email but then can't quite make your finger press Send). Or flip a coin. If you don't like the result, hence suddenly introduce doing the best of three - there's your answer! But really, if your tutor is that keen then - take the hint, Lils, she thinks you'd walk it. He does care. He just can't really register or deal with it right now for obvious reasons. But it's in the in-tray. Patience, Glasshopper. "But I know a lot people who get together at school then don't last at uni coz of distance or whatever. " I know a lot of people who get together then don't last and don't even HAVE the problem of distance! What's your point? Don't blame distance - where there's a will, there's a way. We beans will do literally almost anything for Love Heroin, it's the best sh*t ever, maaan. In some cultures, people will even risk being stoned to death for it, eh! Good, glad you don't let Tom faze you. He's only doing it BECAUSE he feels guilty from knowing he was the one opened that can of worms. Yes, so what if you do worry and analyse more than other people. When the world needs worriers, you'll be one of the ones they call and you'll be able to name your price! Still doesn't alter who the can-opener was. Next time he starts with that condescension-type railroading, call him Tom-Tom and tell him he's nearing his final destination unless he does a U-turn. :-p Anyway, you inherited that from your da. What is Holly doing? Is she being prickly again? (:-D) If your brain goes into overload then you need more admin and filing time (sleep - dreaming), simple as that. And a more premium brand of fuel (eat like a health freak and as many different foodstuffs as you can). Scopes - your mother eats roses with her chocolate cake? She must have very sweet breath? [well, I make *me* laugh; that's the main thing] Here, did you make the cake yourself?

Anyway, it's crystal-clear to me now that your dad spent a long time neglecting your mum romantically and as her co-nester through over-focusing on his career (gosh, what a unique plot line, LOL). She tried to get him to pay attention and remedy the situation (incl. painting and generally putting more into the house/home) but it went in one ear and out the other (nagging doesn't work with most men, "it could be PMT"...gotta *take action* before they'll cease failing to take you seriously). She shut down and wandered off (not a lot, but certainly compared to normal), then obviously saw him make another spurt of effort. Cue the sofa snuggling - her input. He didn't like that she was dictating and not rewarding fast enough so tried to regain her fuller and (cough) higher attention the impatient way ("I've been offered a job ON THE MOOOON!"). Their timing's off. He starts it. She finishes it. But she's not there yet because he went and over-complicated everything and pushed her too far (crack!). It's still just wind. But unfortunately, it'll take as long as it needs to. You and your sibs don't *have* to get frustrated, though. Not if you saw it as being as vital as a gash going through the process of clotting then developing a scab which then hardens, drys and is allowed to fall off in its own sweet time, EQUALS, no noticeable scar. £5 please, but not one of those plastic hankies (they absorb *nothing*). (ha-ha)

Nope sorry the cake is store bought but quite delectable.

(Then, thank-you anyway for your kind offer of a slice, but I'll pass. I tend to prefer to at least know the person whose skin-dust and eye-lashes I'm eating. ;-)) PS Lils: Remember Tom's just testing whether *you* want to retain the relationship, and enough to endure long-distance without potentially dabbling. He was the one who raised it, it occurred to his mind first - bottom-line *actions*! His insecurity. As per. Beddiebyes pour moi! I've got a morning in the morning.

Skin dust and eyelashes quite delish YUM!

I say, Sir!...Is that your way of confessing to the ladies and gentlemen here present and the world, the fact you're a closet cannibal?! :-O Tsk....first posting opportunity for, what - nearly two whole weeks and ...no Lily. Flippintypical. Unless...? (2 plus 2 equals 3,075...) Come on, Scopes. What have you done with her. Listen, if I find out she was in that cake, why I'll...... [shakes fist] ...........................................................................................Yawn. Got any new jokes while we're waiting?

I say Mamm That'd quite true indeed...nah the cake was irresistible Store bought or not. As for LILS I'm not hiding her in the cake that is. Has been a bit of a spell hasn't it. ...............yawn..

Hey, Oh god, it has been a while ...oops sorry :D, hmmmm caaaaaaaakee Yeah scopes my aunt is my mums sister. I think she did confront my mums friend, dunno what she said exactly, wish I had been there but been round there a couple of times and she's seems to of backed off ...a tiiiiiiiny bit but still doesn't feel comfortable being in her house. Aunty coming did start to get parents talking and made them think. I was also ill at school at school last week and after spending ages with the school nurse she decided it was down to stress and not sleeping/exhaustion. But actually after going to the Drs turns out I'm really anaemic (Yay), which is weird because should be sleeping a lot ...not, not sleeping...body obviously confused, not allowed to do any running or swimming at the moment :-( I feel like a right slob! Anyways This finally made parents realise how stressful this has been and since my mum has been coming round, and looked into marriage counselling and they're going to see someone in like a week. So it was all positive :-D even though it didn't feel like it. My aunt and bf have went away after the first time they came to visit and last weekend they called by on the way back for an update and they are coming today too and staying till Monday, ha much to my dads horror who surggested a 'nice' hotel to them near by but my aunt was like 'no I think we'll stay with you!' :-D. Also my dad birthday in summer and we usually go on hol then, so wondering if my mum is actually coming hope so :-/ coz he's starting to talk about it and invited tom to come (hol sorted). ***** Oh, I wasn't taking the hint with the counselling course if she was hinting but I think I want to do it. And do music lessons/club after college and in the hols. I'm testing it out next week with my mum coz it's half term and just gonna see how it goes. my mums friend was really up for dropping off all 7 of her kids for nearly the whole week (ahh) so she can work (Y) and she's told some of her friends, thankfully they don't have any many kids as her. **** Think tom has realised he started all of this uni stuff because he's addmitted he doesn't want to do a gap year and work, he wants to go to uni and has now decided the more we talk about it the more easier it will be when the time comes. That what I was trying to say in the first place, maybe not in the right way and he reassured me on the things I was worrying about. **** Holly has got bored of her new popular friends that she ditched me and megan for and she now wants to be friends with us again but wont look at what she's done and thought by sending annoying 'I miss you' texts was a way back in. Megan is like 'f*** her if she can't applogise. It's nicer without her' and she's right in a lot of ways, there has been no jelously, no b*tching with us coz we can't be bothered and tom gets on really well with her bf so it's been goooood. I met up with Holly, only coz we've been best friends for years, Megan refused to come, prob for the best! I did explained that she can't just walk back in without acknowledging anything and she seriously thinks she hasn't done anything wrong :^) and that we changed and she had to make new friends because she was being left out... dunno what she thinks Meg and I did in the past when she had bfs and... there were a few! But we didn't go and make new friends out of jealousy or make her feel like sh*t when she wanted to hang out with them and not us. In the end she said 'i think we have drifted apart' and I know she was trying to get to me so I just said 'if that's what you think' and it's been left like that. I'm hoping she'll think about it but I doubt it coz it's been two weeks and she hasn't tried again. All she has to do is say sorry ! grrr

Hey-HEY! Only took me 2 days this time! PS: Good to know you respond to double-pincer hinting and nagging, LOL. I don't like cake, incredible as it sounds. I'm into savoury. You can have my piece. .....Virtual cake... Do you two realise we're only inches from replicating Alice In Wonderland? Bagsie be The Mad Hatter. Actually, strike that - the Dormouse ...he gets to FLIPPIN' SLEEP! Aaanyhoo...mustn't grumble... 1. Auntie - confrontation with Lena The Leech: did she?! Cor, blimey, she's certainly no-one's fool, your auntie, is she! I'm now an even bigger fan! :-) "bit but still doesn't feel comfortable being in her house" Yep. Nothing wrong with *your* instincts. "Aunty coming did start to get parents talking and made them think." I could actually snog your aunt at this point. I won't. I'm just saying, LOL. 2. Sorry you're anaemic and not sleeping properly. :-( Did the doc say what it was down to? Still - look at the Lemonade: it brought your parents up sharp! :-) However, it obviously does go to show that this whole thing has got to you, even under your own radar. Unsurprisingly. Good news: you do know that dark choccie is a great source of iron (67% RDA)? And Licorice?? Also raisins...which gives you carte blanche to stuff your face on Cadbury's Fruit & Nut and Licorice Allsorts. I wouldn't worry about being a slob for now. It's only temporary, for one, and two, it means all your available energy can now go exclusively on your powers of mental processing and resilience. Have you tried listening to classical music to help you drift off? It'll turn your emotions off through being a wholly engaging left-brained activity, and thereby make you calmer, enough to drop off. That's the key: whenever your right brain starts mewling, switch to your left to give it a well-deserved nap. An alternative is to do crosswords or word puzzles just before lights-out. Anything logical/non-emotional. Also, if you can't do any exercise, try just fidgeting more (or playing Rachmaninoff). 3. Marriage counselling: HURRAH! FINALLY! GOOD GRIEF, COUPLE 'O SNAILS OR WHAT! Still - better late than never! :-) You must be SO RELIEVED! 4. "ha much to my dads horror who surggested a 'nice' hotel to them near by but my aunt was like 'no I think we'll stay with you!' Grinning." :-D Seriously-seriously, though - what a woman! I can't say it enough. 5. Your dad invited Tom to come? Nice one! What about Auntie? (smirk) (I'll hazard a guess at NO, shall I? :-D) Here - what about me, can I come as well? ;-) I think inviting Tom was a very clever move on your dad's part. I think it's a however-much conscious forward-signal to your mum, to say, 'I won't be giving you even one iota of aggro if you come with us. The fact we'll have a guest present the whole time positively guarantees it, i.e. I couldn't even if I wanted to!'. Yep, clever self-strait-jacketing. And, more to the point - show of sincere willing. :-) Let's watch that acceptance-declination space, then! 6. Re the counselling course: excellent choice, Modom! 7. And the out-of-hours piano lessons: even "excellenter"! You're on your way back up but this time higher!! (Can I do my "Told Ya So" dance yet? :-)) PS: Seve-SEVEN KIDS?!... Seriously??? Hasn't she EVER heard of Satellite telly? Or is she Irish? (*ducks Politically-Correct pamphlets on racism and lobs back pamphlets on How To Grow A SOH*) (anyway, I'm part-Irish so I'm allowed, mleugh) I mean!... "thankfully they don't have any many kids as her" - These days - who does! 8. "Think tom has realised he started all of this uni stuff because he's addmitted he doesn't want to do a gap year and work, he wants to go to uni and has now decided the more we talk about it the more easier it will be when the time comes. That what I was trying to say in the first place, maybe not in the right way and he reassured me on the things I was worrying about." GOOD. But you can't say 'more easier'. :-p It's either 'easier' or 'more easy'. 5p, please. :-) Oh! Did I not tell you I do out-of-hours English lessons? Next week, it's Lit featuring Shakespeare. ("Is this a grammatical error I see before me?") Just giving you forewarning so it sfall be more easier when the tyme doth comest. (*ducks Licorice Allsorts and semi-cannibalistic cake*) 9. Holly: I don't blame you. NOBODY PUTS BABY IN THE CORNER! (- Dirty Dancing film ref...before your time) "Megan is like 'f*** her if she can't applogise. It's nicer without her' and she's right in a lot of ways, there has been no jelously, no b*tching with us coz we can't be bothered and tom gets on really well with her bf so it's been goooood." Nuff said/case closed. And... "All she has to do is say sorry ! grrr" I know. What is it with some people that they're egos are SOOOO TEENY TINY that they can't BEAR to give even a fractional portion of it away ...or the piece she stole off you BACK, I should say! (Just answered me own question, look. ;-)) You and Holly aren't in-synch any more, developmentally... that's what this is. The precise catylistic event is actually by-the-by, meaning, if it hadn't been over this it'd have been summat else. The event was but the symptom, in other words. Anyway... that was all a lot of Lemons turning out to be Lemonade. Fate must like you, it's manoeuvring and 'de-fusing' on your behalf as we speak. :-) I'm sure the kiddie piano lessons is going to 'go' like a storm! LLLLLLLOADZAMONEY for your holiday! PS: Have you spotted any of those extra-large, foreign hornets yet? I have. *YIKES*. Who the hell let THOSE in!!!

Hi Oh thanks, virtual cake nice! Aunty confronted leach face coz sis told her about her run in with her so aunty was on the war path and by the time she had finished with leach face, apprently didn't open her mouth after that or comment on my dad. Yeah I owe aunty somehow :-D Aunty seems to be coming every weekend at the mo, and has been helping my dad look for a holiday, whether he wanted help or not ...I'm surprised she hasn't invited herself yet...will wait and see :-D. My dad wanted to go to America coz he loves it there but she told him to think of something more meaningful/ romantic if he wants my mum to come. Think she was trying to tell him not to make it all about him and where he wants to go. Thought that was good advice and he's listened. Think we're going somewhere my mum and dad went years ago but he's waiting to see if he can talk her round coz at the moment she's doesn't want to come, share a hotel room with him/ be in his company :-/. Don't think she knows tom is coming, that might help a little coz she's goes all goey with him and hopefully aunty will encourage her too. Really relieved they are going to marriage counselling, and they're actually doing something. I've relaxed a bit more just knowing this, hopefully this counsellor person is good and will help them. But my mum coming round most days has caused arguments, really annoying, stupid ones, where my dad says things without thinking and my mum is snapping back at him. My dad has also not very positive about the music lessons and thinks downstairs has been ''turned into a crèche' but he's at works not gone down well with my mum and she got defensive. Music lessons have been really popular, and parents have been asking about the summer hols. Thankfully my mum has been doing it with me coz on one of the days there was like 12 kids altogether, some stayed all day till the could be picked up and some littler ones went home at lunch. Also realised we had to entertain them before they got bored so sis was doing arty stuff with them and think she'll have them all knitting and card making by the end of the summer. Sis employed! Ugh, anaemia is down to periods being crap, lovely things. Was told the pill would help after a few months but didn't do a thing :-@ so doc has given me a different one to try. Catching up on sleep though, partly coz I've been busy all day everyday and tom has been staying most nights. He's been strict, lights gone out at the same time no mob or iPad at night and anything else he thought was distracting and stuck on some hypnotherapy thing. He's tried to take my book away too but he got told to bugger off. It did work though. Will try classical music coz I'm getting a bit bored of hypo now. Oh good glad choc helps doc was going on about green boring stuff, not keen on dark choc but will try it, cadburys fruit and nut on the other hand Yuummm. Ooo I had to watch dirty dancing to see if it was good ...it was :-D. Hmm Holly has been trying to be friends again but just with me, hasn't apologised just admitted she can jump to the wrong conclusions like that time with my mum and dad and me having to cancel on her. But then there is Megan who she doesn't seem to be bothering with at all and has said she doesn't understand that all of a sudden we're now good friends when not so long ago we weren't as close. Tom thinks she's playing a game and has said she was probably the one who stopped us being friends. I dunno if she's that clever :-/. I agree I think we're not in-sync anymore or have much in common and if we were to be friends again she'll just go back to how she was and make me feel bad for hanging out with Megan and Tom. And I don't want to go and join her and her new friends. Ugh, can't wait to leave all the stupid school playground stuff behind. Yeah have seen the hornets things, ew, thought they looked bigger then then a wasp or bee. Don't want to get stung by one of those!

Leech Face - LOL!!! Is that what you're all calling her, or just you on here? :-D You owe her appreciation, that's all. Cuz doing what she's doing is in her job description as well as job-title itself, innit. :-) I mean...Think about the sound: "Aunt".... as in, "I'm going to start a cult of two - me an' yer sister" / "No, you AREN'T!!!" / "(Yikes!) Ok, no I aren't". ;-D "Aunty seems to be coming every weekend at the mo" Yeah, funny that, LOL. Nah. Dad *did* want. I mean, you're not telling me a grown man who has the balls (or temerity) to risk life as he knows it by saying to his wife, 'Vee are moving to ze moon, pack now, ya vull, shnell!', can't say, 'Er, EXCUSE-ME, missus, but I'll thank you to butt out unless invited'. All these people are just saying their feeble Nos to create the pretence that they're *not* scared, vulnerable and incapable and save face. 'I don't want it' is as 'I don't want it' *does*. (Which he didn't do.) Remember that one. Actions ACTIONS actions, actions, actions ACTIONS! I think Auntie did the right thing, being single for as long as she did. She clearly recovered fully and properly and thereby surpassed...hence this time round picked a good'un (do you like him?). Because she's acting like a woman with in-love extra confidence (in short, clearly feels like Superwoman at the mo). So are you going to be the one to tell Mum that Tom's coming? And what it means in terms of a safety feature? Is your mum quite good at spotting actions and meanings of, normally? Is it a problem, mum having her own room, if that's her (frankly sensible) deal-maker? Ask dad. Because I think those two things together would possibly swing it. Ask him, can he AFFORD not to afford it? Plus, if the counselling meanwhile removes that present safety-mechanism need of hers, the room could simply be cancelled, yes?, meaning all it would cost would be a small cancellation fee/loss of room deposit? She goes gooey on Tom, does she? He must be an upgraded (plus baggage-free) version of dad, then (ta-daa!). Does he look like Dad at his age, by any chance? (Here - how are things with brother and his girlfriend? And how's sis?) Wow, your mum has got YEARS-worth of resentment to get out, hasn't she?! Still... better out than in. Not better that he keeps stupidly adding to it, though. (Ah, you've just told me how sis is. This is great, it'll be a family-run business soon enough!) I think Dad feels threatened at you and Mum teaming-up (while she's still angry at him) but uses the concept of kids running around as his cover story. So - still - *neither* of them are really thinking TEAM, are they. Enter counsellor... Your dad is *very* attached to you, isn't he. Secretly, I mean. Shouldn't be secretly, but...this bloke called your dad clearly has problems with exposing his vulnerabilities (baggage). Even to his own family members (clue). Bet you any money you like that, if this counsellor is indeed a good one, s/he'll be proposing on some plausible-sounding pretext that he have a 'few little sessions on his own' in between. If s/he's a particularly canny one - same for Mum so that he won't feel singled-out. "He's tried to take my book away too but he got told to bugger off." :-D Did you say it straight or with a French accent? Nah, don't do that. He's doing his healthy-minded duty (when one of you's down, the other steps up and fills the breach, Amen, so - TICK!). Try Green & Black's dark choc. Try their miniature multi-pack selection thing, it has dark as well as light. I believe there's plain dark and also dark with ginger. But even their milk bar has high cocoa content, including their own little Fruit 'n Nut bar, so - CHOCS AWAY!!! Cadbury's cream egg todos el tiempo para mi (bought in bulk at Easter). "I eat mine obscenely". It's good practise. For prrrro-nun-ciation (why, what did you *think* I was talking about???) (heh-heh). ...Or used to before Kraft took over and the two halves began falling apart the minute you started trying to scrape the egg-top off. What sort of 'craft' are we talking about, eh? Lego? :-p) Ha-ha, still laffin' about the fact when someone tries to take a book off you, you get all panicky and aggressive! :-D "NOOOOOOOOO, NOT THE BOOOOOOK!" PS: I take it you mean real book, not a Kindle? I've noticed a pattern and link: That when things are right in a relationship and, because of it, producing mutual bunny-like behaviour in terms of enthusiasm and frequency *plus* said spot-on brain chemistry, the ovaries get all excited ("we're gonna have a BABYYYYY - everybody get ready!"). Your womb creates an extra-special, extra-bouncy bed for the anticipated fertilised egg (- sounds like a ditty but isn't, not one bitty). Then - "Sorry, folks, no baby, false alarm, shed the bed!" et - voila: Extremely heavy ones, over-blood loss. Add, in your case, the good old chronic stress hormones like Cortisol, as interfere with vit and mineral absorption, and - that um why, Pale-Face. Green boring stuff? Do you mean, like Spinach and Kale? I bloody LOVE that stuff! I swear I was a rabbit in a previous life. I mean - come ONNN - sauteed Spinach with butter? How is that not delicious? Or boiled Kale with butter and/or gravy? Did you eat too many Chillies as a baby?? Try this: Bunch of Curly Kale on a plate, tough central stalks removed (just tear them like leaves from a book). Peel and segment a fresh orange, retaining juice. Whisk with fork olive oil with orange juice and a squirt of lemon juice, pepper and a little salt (quantities according to taste). Add to the plate a shredded kipper (Waitrose do them ready-cooked, but call them Smoked Haddock doncha know, dwahling) and chopped orange segments plus halved drained Spanish Black olives in brine. Chuck dressing over the top and dig in. MUCHO DELICIOSO or your (virtual) dinero back! Plus the Vit C from the orange promotes Iron absorption. Or you can fry strips of Kale with chopped bacon? Or mix baby spinach and other dark baby leaves with freshly-fried bacon bits, sliced mushroom, chopped avocado, cherry tomatoes and Balsamic and Olive Oil vinaigrette? My personal fave for an iron + Vit C boost together: Peanut butter + mayo + shed-loads of Watercress sandwich, do NOT knock it until you've tried it! (Peanuts contain iron too. But Brazils are especially good for promoting sleep due to their high Selenium content.) 2.5p, please. :-) In 1 Pence pieces, one sawn in half. I prefer, shiny. So how does practising at sharing a pad with Tom feel? [wiggles eyebrows] Is he tidy as well? Did you watch the 80s or new version of DD? Cos Patrick Swayze's face is WELL weird if you ask me! Good-looking? To whom? Other Mr Potato Heads? :-p He was good in Ghost, though. Just NOT SEXY. That baddie chap actor was the sexy one...whassisface...tsk... HIM. As for Demi Moore, she looked like a boy with boobs. (And as for Whoopie Goldberg - she looks like Bill Cosby in drag whatever she wears.) Patrick Putty-Face Swayze. (Is that even how you spell his surname, like I care?) ..., thanks for asking, LOL. Holly: oh, she is that clever. But probably won't be aware she is. "Ugh, can't wait to leave all the stupid school playground stuff behind." Um................ Sorry to break it to you, but,... Actually, I'll let Scopes tell you. (:-D sorry, Scopes) PS: The hornets I saw were as big as my thumb (you know the one, right? LOL)- and pretty much identical to English hornets, stripe-wise, except for looking as if they were lightly dusted all over with Orange-ish pollen. Both times, I took one look and legged it! Something tells me it's going to be a very 'insecty' Summer because the other day there were baby mozzies *everywhere* and same has been going for ants. Did you know, though, that if it weren't for wasps the world would be knee-deep in aphids? I think it was aphids. Well, knee-deep in something, anyway. Apparently, wasps are also the bin-men of the insect world. Only they don't provide tiny little, different-coloured bins for forcing the other insects to DO THEIR BLOODY JOBS *FOR* THEM!!! (What...? Nothing...) I'm obviously starting to float off on a little comedy cloud that probably isn't half as hilarious as I think it is. Better known in the industry as, Delirium. How queer when it's only 4am. My cue for beddiebyeszzzz.....

Hellooooooo....Soulmate and LILS One of my most favorite beers dilerium tremmons

Dilerium [Delirium?] Tremmons? Is that - "arrr" - a real ale "boy-enny chaaance"? One of my favourite beers is, no beer. Try Pastis/Sambucha/Pernod or similar aniseedy/licoricey liqueur, ice-cube, water (dilution to-taste), BOSH! Far bettcher zzjan (hic!) Pimmsh an' no fiddjly fwuity bitssh (urp!). Or stick with Morning Beer-Breath (uuugh). Hope you're not a Tube-traveller? ..."Hhhhhi!.....Ssssc-huuuuuse-me!......Hhhhhhhafter you, Madam! (oh, she's fainted, hhhhhhow did that hhhhhhhhappen?!)". So, yeah, anyway... (what?)... PS: Why did the taxi-driver chuck it in? He was fed up with people constantly talking behind his back. (groan / roger / over...)

Belgium ales, or whiskey barrel aged stouts and ales Love the taste

Hehe, Sibs and I have started to call her Leech Face :-D, and I don't think either of us would feel bad if we said it to her face. Was a joint effort, i was calling her Lena- the -leech and said it in front of sis, who said her face is as ugly as a leech :-/, she's erm very complimentary like that, then came up with Leech Face. Yeah, I like aunties bf, he's opening up a bit more now, knew he would. I did think their personalities were a bit too different and auntie might get a bit bored but nah, she's in loooooooove. Can tell. He seems to be a calming influence on her, like when she gets a bit too feisty (with the parents) all he has to do is put a hand on her arm and she looks at him and she relaxes and calms down ...a bit. She is a bit upset that one of my cousins (the younger one) doesn't like him for no reason other then he thinks he's boring?! Aunties bf actually has quite dry sense of humour that my cousin probably doesn't get. He's being difficult too, what a surprise! Think auntie still needs to kick his a*se, she did with older cousin and he's changed a lot but not sure there is much hope for other cousin, too much of an idiot. I told my mum was tom is coming on holiday, and she's was pleased my dad invited him. She's normally quite good at picking up on things but Leech Face was there butting in again, asking my mum why did that make a difference my bf was coming? and why would she even want to go on holiday with my dad and asked if she was actually thinking about it? I was giving leech face two middle fingers under the table. My mum was hesitating but then said she was thinking about it because it's starting to sound like my dad was trying and being more imaginative and not taking us back to the same place but if she does come she wants her own room. Leech Face walked when my mum said that, was quite amusing :-D. My mum did tell me to make sure tom and I get our own room and make sure my dad doesn't think sis and I will share a room and tom and bro share another coz my dad will try to save money. I didn't think he would do this but I did check with him and that's what he was planning to do that! He went moaned that he would have to pay for five room coz sibs will refuse to share with each other. Funny that since we're getting older! I told him I'll pay my for our room if I have coz Tom is paying for his flights. Did update him on what my mum said too and told him to talk to her quick before Leech Face talks my mum out of it. Er, if you ignore the fact my dad had bright, long(why???) , wavy ginger hair (he was hoooooot...not!!!) at 18, him and tom were the same in height and build but that's about it. Tom got more defined features, looks wise, a lot better looking but I'm prob biased . If my dad got rid of the long hair he might of looked better. Unfortunately, I can see a lot of me and a bit of sis in my dad, bro had a lucky escape! Yeah, my dad does feel threatened about me and my mum doing music lessons together. He's not pleased we're doing in the summer hols and was like 'I thought you were coming to come and work at the surgery'...already told him im not working there again, too manic, but he 'forgets' and keeps asking. He's also really embarrassing too :-|. His fave thing to do, which he's done a few times when I have been was there; he hates it when people go on their phones whilst waiting to see him and not pay attention to the electric board thingy when he calls for them. He gives them about a minute to walk to his room and when they don't go :-/ he then comes and stands in reception, calls the person up and very sarcastically and quite loudly says 'would you like to come and see me now or would you rather sit and play on your phone for the rest of the day? Up to you' Then walks off and if they're not quick enough, (sometimes the person stays to complain) he calls the next person! He does have a small point but doesn't have to be such an a*se and makes it hard for he reception staff. I feel really sorry them sometimes. Bro did have a gf but he dumped her, think she got a bit annoying, but he was flirting with one girl that came along to he music lessons last week and has been very secretive with who he's texting, even though it's obvious! Yeah, I liked practising sharing a pad with Tom ( would of been better if the family weren't there :-)) since his only crime was trying to take my books away, was just about ok with him taking the other stuff away coz I could see why but he doesn't believe I read more then one book at a time, I can, I swap each night, coz I'm weird like that :-# . He also tried to get me to choose just one, nooooooo!! Leave the books alone! Tried kindle but it's not the same. Hmmmm, he's tidy round my house and everything he owns has to have a home, doesn't like anything out of place, but his mum deff makes his bed hoovers and cleans. Still in training. Yeah that green stuff! Will eat it but it's borning but I can tell my body wants more of it when I eat it. If that makes sense... Peanut butter and mayo?! Hm will get tom to try that one first he's more adventurous. It was the old dirty dance hmm yeah Patrick swayze is not good looking! Ooooh, I like Ghosts, the theatre show good too! Hiiiiiii scopes! ewww beer is gross

I need to do a bit more catching up here to find ewt who leech face is. Yeah I know beers are gross to most girls. However there is a beer that tastes and has the body of a wine it's called a mead.

Hmm don't like it when tom drinks beer, I've introduced him to spiced rum and coke (y) that way no beer breath for meeeee!!! Ugh, I don't know what to do about Leech Face (my mums so called friend scopes). She's carried on her stupid tantrum about my mum thinking about coming on hol. My mum and dad actually started to talk about it and now Leech Face is now kicking up a big fuss and talking my mum out of it. I'm biting my tongue every time I see her coz she's not holding back on what she thinks and is actually being insulting about family members she hardly knows, aunty included. Aunty not coming round this weekend, too busy. What's wrong with her (Leech Face that is, not aunty) ?! I'm starting to think she's really weird/obsessed/controlling in a crazy mental sort of way. I don't like my mum living there with her . I want her out! :-@ +0(

Heh... So that's leach face what a monster! I can see what you mean. I'd feel a bit uncomfortable if my mothers friend was making comments about my family members too. LILS i gotta say that I wish I were where you are now. It's bloody hot here!

Lils(/Scopes), be with you in a day or so - realise I'm overdue so will make time especially. Bear with... Ta.

Ok! It's hot here too, I'm melting and I can't sleep...maybe not as hot where you are. There was meant to be a storm coming (I like them :-D) but think weather people got that wrong!

It's 120 f@#$in degrees here. No worries Soulmate hope all is working out with the house. Yes LILS they can never be accurate. Just hope my bloody air conditioner doesn't crap out on me.

Auntie's boyfriend sounds nice, only - does he have to "do" *anything*? Didn't she manage somehow to stay alive and manage myriad tricky situations for absolute decades before he walked in? [rhetorical question, replete with eye-roll] I guess it all depends on whether, if she puts her hand on his arm, *he* calms down, doesn't it (or whatever other secret gesture meant to manage or influence). That would make it alright. But if it's *not* a two-way thing, you might want to tell her to watch that and nip it in the bud until such time as it is. He's not her circus-trainer and nor does she need one, eh. We'll let him off for now, though, because, being in Honeymoon Period, it'll still be a case of "WwwwwwwwwwwwwAH can be your hero babeh......WwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwAH can kiss away the pain...oh yeah.... I will staaand by yooou....for-e-ver....." (just cease retching as you sing, mate, that'll do, LOL). But at least she only restrains herself "a bit." Good. She doesn't need restraining, just appreciating. So hold your fire on her younger son. He might just be the super-sensitive one, picking up on something amiss that he can't yet articulate. It's early days, after all; boyfriend's still getting test-driven. He could secretly be a beep-on-wheels with a Nice Guy face for all she knows, right? "Leech Face was there butting in again, asking my mum why did that make a difference my bf was coming? and why would she even want to go on holiday with my dad and asked if she was actually thinking about it? I was giving leech face two middle fingers under the table." I'm sat here right now giving her three. :-p Well, dad will just have to book mum her own room, then - easy-peasy-lemon-squeezy. Reckon she'll end up in his room before the holiday's out, anyway. (Although, surely that means she could share with sis?) The *important, overriding* fact is, SHE OBVIOUSLY INTENDS TO GO, reliant merely on this/that 'mere flourish' term and condition / safety-harness. Berbom/actions. It's still an invitation acceptance. The same holiday destination every year? Ha-ha, how screamingly Aspie. No wonder your mum was having to schedule cuddling sessions. But if he's having to go outside of his comfort-zone and learn new tricks then at least that's another of the lasting benefits of this whole process identified. Don't pay for your own room. It's your dad's shout so it's your dad's shout (and, actually, I think it's rather miserly that he's not paying Tom's flights). And, by the way - I'm with mum: it's perfectly legal at your *adult* ages for you and Tom to share a room together. Put it this way - you could leave home tomorrow and be sh*gging non-stop from morn til night or even sprogging together (if you were both stupid, which you're far from), couldn't you, and dad wouldn't have a single say. Or is that the reason behind why you offered to pay - because it'd mean one double? Ha-ha - sneaky but clever! What did he say to the suggestion? "Did update him on what my mum said too and told him to talk to her quick before Leech Face talks my mum out of it." GOOD, EXCELLENT, because...Do you know what the original and best bonder is? A common enemy! Let's make Lena-ade out of Lena. :-D (Ps you did realise the phoneticism in "Lena"? She leans as well as sucks, innit, albeit just hasn't begun the former yet.) Long hair? Was he a hippy like Auntie? If you've got long, ginger hair *and* it's wavy then - I wouldn't complain because that basically makes you Rapunzel and gives you a giant USP. Grow it even longer would be my advice. But that's it for visual descriptives if you want to remain comfortably anonymous to anyone who's actually met you in RL [taps side of nostril]. I think your dad's Zero Tolerance attitude is perfectly rightful and justified, actually. The phone-addicts are the antisocial, problem-creating ones. But wouldn't it just be easier to ban mobile phone use specifically and exclusively in the waiting room or have a warning sign programmed into the electronic display board regarding lack of pandering, e.g., 'Patients please note you will be alerted that the doctor's ready to see you only twice before losing your slot'? Reminds me of when I was (ugh, it was more just a diversion, really) online dating and this chap turned up a whole hour late to the pub. I only hung around to check he was a real person and not my unjustifiably bitter ex trying to set me up (immature little tw*t that he was). I waited in my car in the car-park, and when he eventually rolled up, spotting and making a beeline for me to explain he'd been in his garden that morning and just sat down in a chair 'for 5 mins' before promptly falling asleep, I just said, 'I hope you and your Narcolepsy will be very happy together' and drove off. After all - bit hard to drop off when you're excited/determined, eh. Nuff said ("neeext!"). Sounds like bro's having fun experimenting around. Is he a lot calmer and more well behaved now because of his new Don Juan career? ;-) "coz I could see why but he doesn't believe I read more then one book at a time, I can, I swap each night, coz I'm weird like that" Then so am I because I have 6 books on the go as we speak. All on the same specialist topic, though. You? They're not books, they're mental empowerment/gym-equipment in paper format. Kindle can do one. You can't write side-notes on a kindle page and nor can you run out of batteries or charge with a paperback, CASE CLOSED. If it wouldn't work up a tree (in the event of us being forced back into the forests), I'm not interested. Plus afterwards - camp-fire kindling! LOL Can't do that with a Kindle, either (ironically-misnamed enough), fumes'd likely put you into a coma. "he's tidy round my house and everything he owns has to have a home, doesn't like anything out of place". Screamingly Aspie trait yet again, look. ;-) But I guess you each could just be 'son/daughter of Aspie', meaning, now just a touch of it yourselves in terms of surface habits and thinking? "Yeah that green stuff! Will eat it but it's borning but I can tell my body wants more of it when I eat it. If that makes sense..." Yup, perfect... PS: no. Peanut butter and Mayo ***and Watercress - lots!***. It's got to be all three (although you can add Rocket and other peppery leaves). Ghost is now a theatre production? (Where have I been???) Who plays Whoopie's character? Don't tell me.... - SHERIDAN SMITH (again). :-p *Real* Ales aren't gross. Try a half-pint of Old Thumper or Forty-Nine-er (similar). If even that's too bitter at first, ask the Barman to add a shot of Tia Maria to make an Oo-Arr-style Black Velvet (it's normally Guinness and Tia but those two old brews have a similar, albeit more subtle, consistency). And the Mead Scopes refers to is very nice as well, far more 'lady-friendly'. Reason I said 'no beer' isn't because I don't like the taste, but because beer's the only alcohol that makes me puke or gives me a hangover from Hell. And don't even get me started on Cider ("no, not the Cider - I'll talk, just tell me what you wanna know!!!!"). *Spiced* Rum 'n Coke?? Is that new? (Again, where have I been my whole life?!) "She's carried on her stupid tantrum about my mum thinking about coming on hol. My mum and dad actually started to talk about it and now Leech Face is now kicking up a big fuss and talking my mum out of it. I'm biting my tongue every time I see her coz she's not holding back on what she thinks and is actually being insulting about family members she hardly knows, aunty included." Okay, now I 'despise' her. Lils, is she straight or gay? If you don't know - what's your gut feeling? "Aunty not coming round this weekend, too busy. What's wrong with her (Leech Face that is, not aunty) ?! I'm starting to think she's really weird/obsessed/controlling in a crazy mental sort of way. I don't like my mum living there with her . I want her out! Angry Sick" You're not wrong. The glaringly characteristic way she's behaving, she's a Sociopath or Psychopath (Narc or Super-Narc), and not a very nice one, that's 'what's wrong with her'. Even from this distance and what 'little' you've told me - I'd put big money on it. BIG. HUGE. She's a predator, preying on your mum and trying to - wait for it - ISOLATE HER (get rid of, by alienating, her normal support network) in order to make her her slave and sadist's play-thing (push/manipulate this button and this squeak comes out, this one and lights flash, ooh, look, I can upset her, aren't I clever and powerful and this game just keeps on giving....etc.). Either that or she's desperate for lodger-money lest she ends up repossessed? But to effectively diddle a woman out of her marriage reconciliation for the sake of a steady extra income still brings us full-circle back to Narc. So she's an NPD at least,*possibly* worse. A good friend would recognise that mum is just taking a well-earned breather and try to *help* her get what *she* wants, which is, BACK WITH HER HUSBAND BUT JUST WITH FAIRER TERMS AND RULES SHARE, BER-BOM! Take Tom along next time, see what he says and observes. If *Tom* signals the alarm to your dad, dad will waste no time - trust me. Alternatively/better yet - how come you can't just say to your mum everything you've just said to me and Scopes? I reckon the storm's going to happen tonight, I can feel it in me water. Let's tell it like it was: it was SPANISH WEATHER! I ordered it in specially (pay me later). :-) Also (phew!) ordered a Snap-Set pool...you know - the kiddie's one that needs no inflating because as soon as it starts to fill, the rigid but flexible (eh?) sides pop up automatically by themselves, and to empty it you just press the side down/in with your foot (as you sit reading one of your 6 books, lol). Insta-paddly pool. Only problem is, the Finding Nemo-style cartoon fishes on the side...which doesn't quite gel with my "serfistikaytid" Indian Ocean-style deck area, lol-didn't-care-too-hot. But I've got better things to do with my breath than blow into a tube (gaffaw-gaffaw). Like, talk and smoke and blow smoke-rings ...in the shape of Lena (smoke-sculpture, lol) which I then right-hook (I wish). I've only had the opp to use it twice, though, time-wise. "Meh!". I wonder if lil sis would be up for asking "Auntie Lena" if she'd take her shopping for X one Saturday, lick-lick-flatter-flatter, so that you'd then get mum alone and once-and-for-all point out the gross trespasses and domination-attempt tactics of the woman? Otherwise, you might (which is why I say take Tom) have to rear up at her and say, 'MADAM! PUH-LEASE! *DO* YOU THINK YOU COULD ALLOW MYSELF AND *MYYYYY...*MO-THER* TO BE ALONE FOR A WHILE SO WE CAN CONVERSE ABOUT *PERSONAL, PRIIIIVATE FAMILY MATTERS*- WHAT POSSIBLE REASON TO DO WITH PROTECTING MY MOTHER'S WELFARE OR INTERESTS CAN YOU *POSSIBLY...HAVE* FOR BEING *SO GLARINGLY* SET AGAINST GIVING A MOTHER AND CHILD DUE PRIVACY! *NO-ONE* WITH ANY GOOD INTENTIONS WOULD OR HAS THE RIGHT TO DEPRIVE WE TWO OF SUCH A BASIC HUMAN GIVEN, LEAST OF ALL YOU, A MERE COLLEAGUE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!' and then stare her out until she slinks out of the room. (And then let me know whether Tom touched your arm or passively backed you up or actually joined in. ;-)) Could you, would you? In a box? With a fox, Sam-I-Am? And stuff that Lena back into her silly pram? PS: A hundred-and-twenty, Scopes? Good grief! Hope you've a paddly pool in your garden?

Only a jaccuzz soulmate I think I'll move to the Uk

Hello! LILS or soulmate either of you live near that apartment fire? SAW that poor woman they interviewed saying where do they think we goin?

Hey, Ah, can see what you mean about Aunties bf, no he definitely doesn't have to do anything like that, she can look after her self. Thinking about now, I wasn't too sure if he does this be supportive or if it was coming across as a bit patronising. She won't mind if I was to mention it to her (not going to) and deffinately won't hesitate in telling him if it does start to annoy her. Well hol is all booked, my dad has just booked my mum her own room, if she wants to come. Now up to her, there's still till time. I think this is being talked about in their marriage counselling sessions and I think something might of been said and my dad has been put in his place a bit coz hasn't asked for any money from me or tom yet. Tom did offer as soon as he found out it was all booked but my dad said not to worry. I think he was just on one of his rants about money coz he was really anxious about booking the hol, he kept on asking me what I thought and I had to sit down with him and look at the website and look through pictures with him, took him ages to book it too. And it was coz it's not America... we've been going to the same villa, in same month, roughly about the same dates so it falls on his bday, same airline, since I was like 4! He also likes to stick to a rough schedule and go back to the same places so he can say 'this time last year we were doing x' ....he's so capervating! :-P. He now madly researching where we're going, keep telling him we don't have to do that much. I'm really pleased aunty pushed him into going somewhere else coz without being ungrateful it was getting boring going back to the same place, for me there was distraction of theme parks and water parks but think it drove my mum mad. Not too sure if my dad was a hippy he might of tried but failed :-/. Bro is better then he was, still likes to annoy teachers at school even the nice ones and gets detentions, he says he gets bored, and likes think he knows everything. hes better at home and towards parents now. It's the words and language leech face uses to discribe family members and was really getting to me and I was getting annoyed with myself for not saying anything. She was calling my aunt an aggressive b*tch (think we know who the actual b*tch is). Think my mum is too scared to defend my aunt to dad and wasn't in the room when she said that about sis otherwise she would of said something I'm sure. My guts tell me leech face is poss bi/gay but there's not a lot that gives it away to say for sure. Or she's seriously sad miserable and lonely, she's got no pics of poss children or family in her house and makes it very clear she doesn't like men. My brother ended up confronting leech face before me was trying to find the confidence. He surprised me but I could tell he's been wanting to say something to leech face too. She was being a cow (again) about the holiday now being booked and how my dad is living in a dream land if he thinks my mum is actually going to go. And bro turned round to her and said 'what's your problem if my mum does come? Do you fancy her or something?'. She got all defensive and asked what, exactly he was implying and bro was like 'I thought that was obvious' hehe and she went a bit speechless. My mum got a bit annoyed with him but bro didn't seem bothered and said leech face needed to butt out and it was up to her what she does...could of kissed him...didn't, went to Starbucks instead. Tom wants to meet leech face and observe and he probably would join in if I found the courage to face her. He was quite impressed with bro standing up to her tho. Think I need to back bro up now and yeah, start telling my mum what I've been saying on here was worried about being horrible about one of her friends but I'm not now. Ah im not the only one! I'm trying to find a series of books I like, at the mo I'm reading Harry Potter wasn't ever that interested before, er fifty shades of grey (or my porn books as tom likes to call then *rolls eyes*) which have got a bit boring and some other fiction books I've just added to my pile. Had paddling pool too until the dog jump in and coz he long haired and made the water all hairy, ew, then punctured it :-|. I want to practise Lena smoke sculptures and then punch them that would be therapeutic .. but don't smoke! Think spiced rum and coke is a fairly new thing try, a few people have tried and liked :-).

Okayyyyyy..... LILS let's hope that uhhhh....well things get better here. I wondered how long it would be until someone like this would come along

"Thinking about now, I wasn't too sure if he does this be supportive or if it was coming across as a bit patronising. " Depends on what else he does. You need two other same-vein examples to make a 'diagnosis'. "and deffinately won't hesitate in telling him if it does start to annoy her." LOL - I believe you. Although, possibly not if she's distracted/pre-occupied each time and/or lately. These things have a habit of going under ones radar until it's too late because Honeymoon's over and all these 'lovely' habits have been permitted to get set in stone. Anyway, time and repetition will tell as per. (PS: nng...gggnnnn....can't manage it.... - *definitely*) (thoweeee!) "Well hol is all booked, my dad has just booked my mum her own room" *If* she wants to come? Giant pat on the back for dad! Yeah, it's probably that he's calmed down before she has (plus the counsellor). There again, he was the 'first stepper' and her the 'beat later' respondent, so he would have. Holiday should do it, separate rooms or not. " Tom did offer as soon as he found out it was all booked but my dad said not to worry." And another! "he was really anxious about booking the hol, he kept on asking me what I thought and I had to sit down with him and look at the website and look through pictures with him, took him ages to book it too." Again - OH, SOOOOO ASPIE (non-technical)! Intimidated by websites and their over-busyness, visually; paranoid about making a boo-boo. And - "He now madly researching where we're going, keep telling him we don't have to do that much." - Aspies need - NEED - routine and hate surprises, even "nice" ones (hence the research to pre-familiarise himself before going). They're noticing so much else all the time (no filters, wider-than-normal radar) they simply don't have room in their jellos for things in their environment changing all the time because then they 'come at them' with everything else. It's 'sit still in the same place at the same angle SO I CAN THINK!'. "...An' I've got one, two, three, four, five!....senses working o....ver....ti-iiime..." (- XTC, go YouTube). "but think it drove my mum mad." She should try the opposite - a man who creates chaos and instability (too many of them around these days, betchyerarse). THEN she'd know what side her bread were buttered on! Anyway, appreciate that that was no mean feat on his part (and well done for having morally-supported him, I imagine he really appreciated that...A LOT...which may be why the second thought and let-off about charging you and Tom). Bro's just a typical teenage lad (now). Good. "It's the words and language leech face uses to discribe family members and was really getting to me and I was getting annoyed with myself for not saying anything. " Don't be. It's not something you'd have a ready-made frame of reference for thus would be bound to shock you, even if you couldn't FEEL it. "an aggressive b*tch " WHAT-AH?! ...Four middle fingers and counting. (And, YES WE DO.) It's called, attempt to discredit. How ironic (and typically grossly hypocritical) that she accuses your aunt of being aggressive (as if to suggest there's no cause thus isn't a healthy, natural reaction/response)- when her very accusation is framed [wait for it] using AGGRESSIVE LINGO......hell, just suffice it to say: I'm feeling aggressive towards her, you're feeling aggressive towards her (and I expect Scopes, too)....coo, we wonder why! SHE IS INTERFERING, IMPEDING, IMPINGING with the smooth-running of their reconciliation; she is NOT pro their relationship and your mother does not need a vetter-bodyguard. And it's neither her job nor right to nor warranted or justified. She's the problem, NOT how people naturally react to her ongoing, massive boundary violating. "My guts tell me leech face is poss bi/gay but there's not a lot that gives it away to say for sure." Me too. And - wanna bet? I see things. Not dead people. But issues. "My brother ended up confronting leech face before me was trying to find the confidence. He surprised me but I could tell he's been wanting to say something to leech face too. She was being a cow (again) about the holiday now being booked and how my dad is living in a dream land if he thinks my mum is actually going to go. And bro turned round to her and said 'what's your problem if my mum does come? Do you fancy her or something?'. She got all defensive and asked what, exactly he was implying and bro was like 'I thought that was obvious' hehe and she went a bit speechless." :-O :-) :-) :-) Your brother is COOLIO IGLESIAS!!! He's not going to be bullied or stand by and watch anyone he cares about be bullied AT ALL, is he! Bra...VO. "My mum got a bit annoyed with him but bro didn't seem bothered and said leech face needed to butt out and it was up to her what she does...could of kissed him...didn't, went to Starbucks instead." Wow. Did he actually use the name Leech Face? Oh, PLEASE say yes because the name SAYS IT ALL!...as in Wake-Up Call (....again, sounds like a poem......but in't.) What was mum's reaction after he said that? PS: How come you were surprised, considering the previous FB confrontation incident? Don't think you need to take Tom, now that bro's on the case. But do anyway. Intimidate her back into her box with numbers. "start telling my mum what I've been saying on here was worried about being horrible about one of her friends but I'm not now." :-D I should cocoa?! I read Fifty Shades. Purely research. Well...wasn't to begin with but after I noticed I'd started flicking past the sex-scenes to get back to the actual story, it was. Yawn. Whip? Again? Yeah? That again, too? Again-again-again, Telly-Tubby again? Is your needle stuck, luv? Or are you just rehashing over-and-over your ONE kinky experience/fantasy? What's the message anyway - every woman grab yourself a dysfunctional, disordered, controlling and cowardly mama's boy cos they're such fun-fun-fun? Yeah. NOT. Don't WRITE about him, and CERTAINLY don't date him - just call Matron. (And that's what I say to your 'bit' comment, LOL.) People like Lena could certainly start you smoking, let's be honest. Does *she* smoke? ...."Here, let me light that for you-" - WHOOMPH! - "...Oops, sorry, forget I'd left it on High". I'm going to try it. The spiced rum, not lighting Lena's head and facial hair. Fifty Shades of Singed. :-D (Ber-der-ber-der-ber-der-THAT'S ALL FOLKS! LOL) ****************** Scopester, "I wondered how long it would be until someone like this would come along" You mean Lena? Did you??? Do tell! :-)

PPS Scopes: "LILS or soulmate either of you live near that apartment fire?" Can't say, sorry (anonymity issue). But - good grief, in THIS day and age?! Here - don't get me started or I'll never stop!

Lol ok Soulmate the apartment fire aside. I was speaking of that soul searching person who's name I don't see up there anymore (removed) :-)

Will be on the look out with auntys bf next time, hope he turns out to be a good one! ah, I'm understanding my dad even more now. He's made a holiday folder and before I would of told him it was a bit much but now I know why! Sis asked if it was coming on holiday with us (think she was worried about being embarressed) and he looked at her as if she was crazy and was like 'yes!' and went into how useful it was, don't think she really cared! Really want to know, if knows he is Aspie, he must have some idea? Their Counsellor must be picking up on it? was a bit surprised with bro confronting Leech Face because he can be very insular and doesnt show his confidence all the time...I forget that he will confront anyone who pushs him and he has a way with words too :- but he has dealt with bullies at school so he's an expert. He can deal with leech face, ill deal with my mum (y) and he has made it easier for me to back him up if I need to. Not seen that much of leech face tho, not coz bro scared her off just working. He just better not start thinking im gonna treat him to Starbuck everytime, or sis will start joining in too! He sooo nearly said Leech Face, it was on the tip of his tounge he started to say 'Lee....' but stopped himself and said her real name. My mum just told him he made his point and not to say anything more and gave bro a look. I have spoken to her since about leech face (and everything else) and she said at the time she was remembering the FB incident which was why she was angry with him. Thought it was a repeat erm not really leech faces deserves it, her friend didn't ! But shes finally admitted, without deffending her, that Leech Face does go too far and she's a bit too interested. Think it all helped coz things have moved a positive way. My mum has also had time to think and over the weekend she apparently came round to the house and she and my dad had, dads words 'a nice conversation' and my bro and dad seem to thinks she's now coming on holiday separate rooms but that doesn't matter :-D. My dad is now very pleased with himself coz he showed her the website, think he was a bit nervous and wanted her to like it . yay, I'm quite relieved, I really wanted her to come coz it would not be the same without her. I wasn't home all weekend so hoping bro and dad are right, got taken to Paris with tom and megs and her bf. The boys got together and planned it, had no idea but does explain why they were both acting a bit weird last week!

"He's made a holiday folder" GAFFAW-GAFFAW! Ask me to *actually* put money on him being 'on the map' ASD, go on. I bloody will, you know! :-D "Really want to know, if knows he is Aspie, he must have some idea? Their Counsellor must be picking up on it?" Not necessarily. Depends on their work and study experience because even thought it's a born-with condition (wired that way), not a mental illness (wiring messed up), it still comes under the remit of psychiatry as takes an assessment. As for him: you'd be surprised the huge number of people of his generation and upwards who've lived their whole (harder than the average) lives without a clue, other than sensing/knowing they're different or 'unique'. You could always ask him to look into it by Googling "the AQ Test" (by Wired). It's not an official diagnosis tool but it comes PR....ETTY DAMN CLOSE ergo is accepted professionally as an accurate precursor. I doubt it would change much, considering he's managed thus far without, to point of high functioning (which makes it a GOOD thing...Normal but with a soupcon of the best of autism). But it would certainly give him peace of mind where perhaps was lacking, to know EXACTLY HOW and WHY he's different (including anally organised and far-foward thinking as a psychological security blankie aka coping mechanism). "Not seen that much of leech face tho, not coz bro scared her off just working." Oh, right. Just working. Yeah. No coincidence in timing whatsoever. I don't know, though... I'd have thought it were worth a Starbucks each time? (PS: "Leee......eean on me...When you're not stro-ong....An' I'll be your friend...la-la-la-laaaa-la-laaa...just having a little sing-song, don't mind me" LOL) "My mum just told him he made his point and not to say anything more and gave bro a look." (etc.) Ah-hah. Interesting. She does know, then, she ain't blind. Well, then, she must be tolerating it. For now. "Think it all helped coz things have moved a positive way. My mum has also had time to think and over the weekend she apparently came round to the house and she and my dad had, dads words 'a nice conversation' and my bro and dad seem to thinks she's now coming on holiday separate rooms but that doesn't matter Grinning. My dad is now very pleased with himself coz he showed her the website, think he was a bit nervous and wanted her to like it . yay, I'm quite relieved, I really wanted her to come coz it would not be the same without her. I wasn't home all weekend so hoping bro and dad are right, got taken to Paris with tom and megs and her bf. The boys got together and planned it, had no idea but does explain why they were both acting a bit weird last week!" Happy ending. :-) PS: Did he show her his holiday folder? :-D PPS: What about his etchings? ;-) PPPS: No, it wouldn't have (been the same without her). Wait up - Paris? OOH-LA-LA! Impressive! Did you do the Louvre or the Orsy?

Oh, maybe my dad doesn't know but my mum has always suspected he is but never investigated. I think he knows he thinks and acts differently to other people. Will try and get him to do the test (somehow) coz I think it will help him. Did google and had a look. I could answer a lot of them on his behalf my self, he deff likes routine and sticking to the same things and he memories patients by d.o.b :-/... as you do! Tom came with me to leech faces house the other day to observe but she wasnt there to start with and then when she did walked in she took one look at him and went ' ffs' and turned walked back out again haha. He doesn't normally have that effect on people. So bro might of scared her off with confronting her and she maybe thought tom would do the same. But Tom did say he didn't want to annoy my mum by saying something so was only there to observe was a disappointed he did get to. And my mum told me today leech face is driving her her crazy now she knows she coming on hol. still about a month to go and if she bloody talks her out of coming then grrr :-@.... will keep bringing tom or bro with me. My mum said she really doesn't know what to do and doesn't want to go to another friends house. I did say she could come round more since they're being civil and there was always the spare room at home, might be pushing it and be a bit too soon for her but I just think soon they're gonna be on holiday together for a week o may as well get used to seeing each other. Right or wrong thing to say seed planted anyways. Yeah my dad did show her his holiday folder she probably thought 'omg' coz it is very detailed but she does also like things to be organised and it does show he's being thoughtful. Yeah Paris was awesome :-D was kind of a relaxed end of exams/school celebration. Yeah we Did do the louvre museum. Before going home we had split up from meg and bf and when we met up with them again meg was calling bf lots of names, (did feel a bit sorry for him coz there is no way tom or I was let each get away with that, name calling not cool (n)) he was accusing her of being ungrateful. Tom was not helpful when he said 'separates seat for you guys on the way home then yeah?'. Meg looked like she was about to punch both of them. There is something going on with her though coz they're still not talking and she's says she confined in him in something and didn't get the reaction she needed/wanted but won't go into anymore detail then that. Oh well I need to sleep (for once) niiiiiighhht

"then when she did walked in she took one look at him and went ' ffs' and turned walked back out again haha" She did WHAT?!*!? Again - WHAT?!??! Ucking Funbelievable! And other expletives non-befitting of a Mod. Is this woman for-real?! *Man-Hater Alert* *Cowardly Bully Alert* (picks on smaller-than-her, scarpers the minute that bigger-than-her arrives) "He doesn't normally have that effect on people. " :-D :-D :-D Well, anyway - you've found her Achilles. Which is perfectly fair enough, considering she's long found and been using your mum's. Next time you go - assuming neither of the boys can accompany - stick a carrot down yer trousers. Actually - make it a marrow! And a fake moustache. (Just made meself laff...made mistake of picturing it.) Back to seriousness ("awwwwww!") - I imagine it was the fact she clocked you avidly fixated on her face as if taking a front row seat, all ready for the action to begin. Try to remember - were you? Assuming I read your next sentance correctly: Ah, but he DID 'get to' (think about it), just not the way you'd envisaged. :-) Leech Face is driving her crazy, eh? Nah. She won't be talking your mum out of anything. Except lodging at her house, of course. And back into the arms of your dad. (Ta-daaa!) See how it's all panning out nicely? Fate is obviously on your side, look; turns out Lena is actually a blessing in disguise. Plus - OH BOY, is your mum going to enjoy this holiday (ha-ha - DO WHAT!?). And your dad. :-) "Cheers, Lena! And - See ya!...Wouldn' wanna be ya! :-p") "I did say she could come round more since they're being civil and there was always the spare room at home" You clever little stick, you! Gold star! And - yes, of course... It's no different to separate hotel rooms, is it! ...The thought, I mean (doubt it'll happen when it comes to it). "but she does also like things to be organised" Oh, does she indeed. Interrrrresting.... Maybe they could do the test together. Agree with the 'being thoughtful' (and putting in massive effort = "I care big-time" + "Sorry I was a giant prat back there"). ********* Why was Meg slagging him off? What had he done/not done? " 'separates seat for you guys on the way home then yeah?'" :-D :-D :-D :-D (I tell you what, Lils. This has turned into the most hilariously entertaining thread I've ever encountered. I mean - talk about real-life sitcom?! :-D How are you at writing?) 'Confided in him'. Ah. Just worked out what happened: Meg for the first time told him she loved him and he failed to echo it. (£10? If I'm wrong I pay you £10, if you're wrong you pay me nothing. Deal?) If I'm right - How humiliating, poor Meg. And what a barstool. He should have found a way to Little-White lie and then waited until she were 'safely' back on home ground (her own pillow to sob into) before dismally enlightening her. *Not* gentlemanly. Rather heartless and self-centred, actually. In fact, downright emotionally cruel. More so if later it transpires he 'took it back' once they were home (if you know what I mean). What's this guy's dating history - do you know? I mean - put it this way: how easy IS it to "de-romanticise" your girlfriend in "Pah-rrrreeeee" of all places, let alone to that degree? I rest me case. It was something pretty big. "Tune in next week, folks, for the next thrilling instalment of".... (What are you going to call this blog/book then film, Lils? :-))

My mum was quite shocked and looked a bit embarrassed when leech face said coz she hates swearing. Yeah leech face is stupid coz it doesn't exactly make her out to be a 'caring friend' anymore, more bitter and twisted and a bit mental. So yeah, thanks leech face! ...as long as my mum doesn't go back to stay with her after hol :-/ < been worrying about that. Gotta have something to worry about :-D. Yep, I was looking at leech face and waiting for her reaction with tom being there in her house, but was not what I thought her reaction would be like... I wanted her to start making her usual snide comments. Tom is not bothered at all by what she said, he wants round 2, Ding ding! Lol, marrow down my trousers and fake mostuche (I'm sure sis could make me one) can kinda picture it too... Yay gold star! Also hoping if leech face carries on the way she is, it will drive my mum away from her coz we're teaching kiddies again over the summer most days, so she will be round more and she might as well start to stay in spare room :-D. Did get my dad to look at the Aspie test and he did quite happily do it and he scored quite high but couldn't tell by his reaction what he thought coz he didn't say much. Think he either had an idea or it's sinking in and thinking about it. Ooooooooh that is probably it! Meg still hasn't actually said what bf has done other then he's an unaffectionate b%#@+^?! And she's been really down, been trying to cheer her up :-(. I did notice that this is true (was quite obvious in Paris) meg is always the one who makes the first move as in go to hold his hand etc. even more convinced you're right coz a while ago meg was saying she was waiting for him to say 'I love you' and she was wondering if she should say it first coz she really liked him but she didn't coz she thought it was a bit too soon and I think she wanted him to say it first. Not too sure on his dating history, he seemed nice enough to start off with, don't know him that well coz he goes to another school. Still a bit weird he join tom in planning a trip to Paris though. Can understand now why she was calling him names. Oh I thought I went on a bit and was starting to bore ppl :-D but I like blogging. Tom keeps telling me I could turn this into a book, I like writing but don't think I got the patience to write a book. Hmm will have to think of title .....

Very Positive up date :-D my mum and dad have gone away together till Friday, which means I'm in charge 8=) until aunty comes tomoz eve, quite pleased she is coming coz sis is seriously pushing the boundaries which aunty won't stand for. Quite a long time alone together, as in not just a couple of days. they have obviously decided to test things before holiday, so I'm hoping this is a good idea and it won't back fire on them. Haha Just keep thinking of leech face all alone in her house being miserable .

Hey-hey! (Run "sorry for the wait, as per" soundbyte loop.) 1. I would be most surprised if after a spell out of the cage your mother would find returning to it an attractive option. I mean - would you? And certainly not if it meant an unnecessary commute x 2 per day to the 'music school'. (What have you decided to name it, btw? I thought of another for you: A Minors. Or A Sharps? ...Whoops, just opened the creative Pandora's box... Crotchety Kids. "Buuurp!", tha''s bedder, lol.) 2. Yep, sounds like Lena clocked your 'waiting' face and immediately worked out that she was walking bang-slap into a waiting ambush. Never mind, it still worked out well (you can run but you can't hide, Lena). 3. Your mum must feel very flattered by all the protectiveness surrounding her of late, I must say. It'll all help to mend her dented ego that much more speedily. :-) 4. Sinking in, definitely. It's a major discovery to make, quite a headf*ck. Has he been quite quiet since? 5. I'm always right (assuming all cylinders are firing and unladen). Unfortunately. It's a talent when the news is welcome, sure, but a right ruddy curse when not (albeit, 'don't shoot the messenger', is what I say...or the messenger might shoot back..with a far bigger gun (containing Reality-Slap bullets). ;-) Have a little wander around my archive and you'll appreciate what I mean). 6. I suspect Meg's over-keenness to rush intimacy or try to squeeze it out where too little or none exists is surprisingly less about romance and more about badly wanting to secure herself a place in yours and Tom's club so as not to lose you as an easily-accessible friend? But, yeah, taking a woman to Paris does kind of set her up with the expectation of hearing him declare his feelings. So this boy's an insensitive, thoughtless little ugger as well, isn't he. Hasn't Tom got any single, available, more diamond-like friends that you two could match-make her with? Or even another happily single mate that would hit it off with her platonically, just to make a social foursome? You never know, he and Meg might become firm friends enough to go out cruising together and each find someone that way (mutual, constant, on-the-spot reality-checker, as in, 'Ugh - him in the corner - are you mental, aim higher, luv!?')? Well anyway, Meg has my deepest sympathies. PS: They *all* seem nice enough to begin with. It's when they feel the other's attached to the point of reversal guaranteeing big pain that they begin letting the mask bit-by-bit slide off (those that wear one, I mean). Feel the pain and do it anyway, is my motto. The best, most quickly effective medicine *always* tastes the worst, I've found. Short term sting versus long term misery - no bloody contest. Yes, strange he was so keen on the idea of the trip. Maybe he prefers types like Tom and Meg was his access door? :-p What was he like towards you? 7. What on earth made you think you were boring? Not your misconstruing my scarcity was a some excuse, surely?? Nay, lass, I've been disappearing up my own spiral! Well, anyway, I hope to be a little more available after this week as the the entire house is looking amazing (even though I say so meself). The only internal and external areas without charm or Wow factor are now the utility room, loft, garage and shed - ber-bom! The rest is looking good enough to put in Homes & Gardens (in fact, I might call them). Six months straight, with only about 2 days off, of total home alterations/improvements/decorations that by rights should have taken at least a year. I'm more knackered than I've ever been in my life, although - BY GOD you should see me muscles!!! Can't quite cut bread with them, but they've definitely got their sharp angles back. I've also lost 2 Stone that I didn't even know I had going spare! Might change my boardname to Sinewy. (Yawn quietly, please, lol.) 8. You don't have to have patience to write a book. You just write. In Stream Of Consciousness stylee, preferably. Then you take the print-outs of each 'chapter', lay them out on the floor in chronological or event order, and then create little preceding or succeeding passages as 'bridges' from one chapter or set of chapters to the next, bit like chain links in a necklace. Easy-peasy lemon squeezy. Oh, and leave the rest to the publishing editor so that he/she can feel they've been involved in writing a seller. Voila - book. Even if you don't end up published, you've got a golden nugget of an heirloom to pass down the future generations. And it's easier to know where you're headed if first you know where you've been. Innit. Stop Press - Update! 1. Away together until Friday???? Really??? Where to? 2. What's blister doing? Is she stealing your make-up again? 3. Test things before holiday, ha-ha-ha!!! What a pair of liars. :-D It's called, Haven't done it in months, can't wait another second! LOL (Cheers again, Lena!) (Don't worry about her. She's the type isn't happy unless she's miserable. Her great excuse not to have to get off her arse and make things better for herself. "Someone else do it, mew-mew".) Let me know how the pre-holiday holiday-ette went! :-)

Parents were quite secretive about pre holiday, I didn't know until a few days before, when they made sure I was going to be around to keep an eye on sibs. They went to Devon, which is another place they have always gone to. Both came back looking very happy and relaxed. I do know they did have separate rooms to start off with, like they plan to on hol, but that changed. Aunty was quizzing them a lot when they got back on Friday (got them both drunk on her cocktails -god knows what she puts in them) and it went into a bit too much detail! But they are thinking about cancelling my mums room on hol, going see how next couple of weeks go. My mum did go back to leech face's house on sat eve, was not happy with this coz I don't like her going back into somewhere negative :-| and didn't get why she even wanted to. aunty tried to change her mind too, but didn't work. she did stay fri night tho and spent all day sat and today at home. Don't think she will be at leech faces house for much longer (y). Music school will deff help coz I don't think she'll do both to do the two trips. . Still need a name, I liked 'put a lid on it' :-D . The Parents of kids were really unhappy that music lessons wasn't on last week coz of my mum being away , wasn't gonna do it on my own, too many kids. one mum was really irate coz she was hoping to drop off her kids at 7 am, er, b*gger off love, I'm not getting up that early and I like sleep again now :-). Yep, my dad was fairly quite since doing online test, will not surprise me if he starts to read about it or mentioned it to my mum, if he hasn't already. One of toms friends does/did really like Meg and had once made it pretty obvious but she got with bf. They could potentially start as friends though... Her and (ex) bf have broken up now :-/. He was quite friendly with me, but I didn't really think anything more coz Tom and Megs get on well so I thought that's what he was doing with me. Meg is excited coz next week toms mum and dad are going on holiday and he has invited friends up from Cornwall, think there is going to be at least 6 of them, Tom not included. Not enierly sure his mum and dad know this! I was going to stay away and let them have a boys week but meg has other ideas . Good luck to her coz two are identical twins and the others have the same bloody name! Sis :-| - I wish she had only stolen my make up ! The moment my mum and dad left for their hol, was the moment she went from being her normal self to arguementitive, stroppy little ...beep. Not really too sure what brought it on, think she just decided she wasn't going to listen to anyone. I was being quite patient with her up until she told me 'I am going out with friends and you need to come and pick me up when I call you' ...oh really?! She did go out and I did pick her up where she said she was going to be but when I got there she wasn't there ...called her, she was somewhere else, drove there ...not there ...called her again and she picked up the phone laughing, and said they moved again. Told her to get back to where she said she was going to be or her sleepover with her friend was cancelled. So sis and friend came back, really should of just taken her friend back home coz they were a nightmare. Not sure who was influencing who, but sis was showing off in front of friend and bro started arguing with both of them coz they were being too loud and no one got any sleep. Not the worst thing in the world, was a sleep over, so was expecting some noise but I had an interview/talk at college for my counselling course first thing the next day, felt like a zoombie :-|. Sis didn't really change her attitude when aunty was around either. Parents on the other hand were not impressed and they both had words with her. Was a bit bored last week and did start to think about writing book and found all the above quite a good guide line, did get a bit bored though :-/ but will keep going. Scopes where you gone??? :^)

Hi LILS Sorry about my slacking in response. I've been somewhat preoccupied if ya know what I mean. Looking at properties and making a decision. As for leach face you should rename her black widow

Right now I'm faced with a four hundred pound pest.

A four hundred pound pest ?? Ha :-D that's a good new name for leech face !

Yep LILS rather than elaborate let's just say I volunteered for something I shouldn't have and now I have a four hundred pound pest. Leach face is a heavy weight?

She's overweight, is she? How's about "The Leeching Tower of Pizza"? :-D (Politically-Correct Disclaimer [to be read in a "Grayson" from Harry Enfield voice, please - I insist]: Thuh viewwwairs airt huuurm, pliz note: the above comadeh sl*ttery exclooodes those with obeeesity-causing medical condishyons, wun is tooorking abite greedy piggies, as eeyun, "yourhomemaybeatriskifyoutrytoexitthroughthefrontdoorifyoufailtokeepupdiscipline, and [Grayson voice Off] I can't WAIT for pigging Brexit like we pigging WON THE VOTE FOR, HELLO, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE - VOTE-WINNING = IT HAPPENS?! Barstools. Anyway...) ************* ...Eyup chucks! :-) First off... "Parents were quite secretive about pre holiday, I didn't know until a few days before, when they made sure I was going to be around to keep an eye on sibs. They went to Devon, which is another place they have always gone to. Both came back looking very happy and relaxed. I do know they did have separate rooms to start off with, like they plan to on hol, but that changed. Aunty was quizzing them a lot when they got back on Friday (got them both drunk on her cocktails -god knows what she puts in them) and it went into a bit too much detail! But they are thinking about cancelling my mums room on hol, going see how next couple of weeks go." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRhjWdr-LAA :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) (Bye-bye "Lena, Bombena, Stickalena (haha!), Fifena, Fifena, Stickalena, that's how you spell 'BUT STILL CALL MATRON!!!') ******* Ha-ha, got them drunk. She could have taught the Gestapo a sauver thing or two, your Auntie, LOL, or joined MI5 or SIS as an English Mata Hari (...without the firing-squad bit). High Five to "Her Royal Sneakiness-For-The-Power-Of-Goodliness" yet again!) *********** I suspect it's a case of, having had a chance to 'de-slime' by going away with your dad and things on that score going brilliantly - i.e. relaxing, coming back down from high DefCon, regaining her confidence and, with it, better judgement and thinking - your mum felt an urge to go back to Lena's to take a fresh look at the (er) woman that, it'll have now properly and fully hit her, took advantage of her in what might well have been the emotionally darkest hour of need of her entire life, now that it appears she's no longer in a desperate enough position to have to tolerate the (er) woman. She can suddenly afford to feel mightily p*ssed-off. Maybe with the intention of confronting and putting her back in her place or more simply and ladylike-ly to show her her stronger, assertive side? Or just to newly scrutinise in order to devise whatever strategy for dealing with her at whatever point later? Quite right too!...Needed a friend, helper, rescuer - got The Kiddie Catcher from Chitty-Chitty :-p (and your mum *was* still in the foetal position at the time so may as well have been a kiddie, let's be honest). I mean, if you're fantastic at manipulation and are GONNA manipulate someone, at least manipulate them towards their own (assuming Sensible) flippin' goal and not your own, eh! Anything else is ultimately FUTILE plus *everything* has a "comes around" - When, not If. ...But I'll stop there cos I ain't gats time to soapbox and I think I already did this one a time before. (You're welcome, LOL.) *********** Re. Put A Lid On It (- would you add an exclamation-mark?). The thing to do before deciding is, conduct a poll amongst all your customers, friends, family, anyone that'll listen, basically, to get some 'customer' feedback. And give them a choice of, say, five potential names. If you want my opinion then, personally, if I'm honest (by which I mean blunt, LOL), I think I prefer Nanna Joanna because it's short, catchy (imagine the radio jingle in years to come!), self-explanatory (if written in Black & White, one character per piano key...and ta-daa, possibly there's your logo...albeit and alternatively, a correlation exists between the letter J and the shape of one half of a "grahnd pee-ah-no", likewise note, fellow ivory-tickler (as you picture an equally tiny pianist sat at the head of that 'J', LOL, I know that's what you're doing right now, go aaaan, admit it! Or - it is now? :-D)), plus both aspects of the business are conveyed efficiently and get a moreover equal billing. Yet note it's not NannY, as if to suggest a full-blown nannying or childminding service with all that that entails (registering with the council (waiting weeks/months...), Police background checks (waiting...), Health & Safety checks (waiting 'n gnashing...), just for starters. NannA - as in gran-gran - only babysits ...something that's still a free enterprise, small-scale thus exempt from tax, ta-da! (until you're ready to register it and start doing book-keeping and annual tax returns yawn)...or was when I last looked, anyway (best check!) I realise you're not a grandmother (cuz I iz clever like dat), but that bit refers to the piano itself - it, in a way, being the sitter. Plus your name isn't Joanna, anyway (as you might already be aware?). Hence - "Nanna Joanna". (Er..I probably could have explained that in one, succinct sentance but - your good news has gone to my head.) [slaps own face] Biz Question: Did your mum think to check with you that you were okay about her leaving the business 'in suspenders' for a few days whereby it could likely piss-off customers or potentially, worse-case-scenario, even lose their regular custom? Or was her mind naturally, totally focused on the wee trip? There again, if "Mother Executive", there, is having a badly restrained go at you, at your age, for shutting up shop for just a week, I repeat, at your age, then you might want to veer away from mothers so time-short and desperate that they're wrongly treating you from The Off like an actual, 'do or die' childminding service, rather than a more informal baby-sitting one combined with the main objective of piano tuition, whereby they think they can act like you've failed to live up to your side of the non-existently implicit or tacit bargain, as if you actually *were* a bona fide childminding service? How are you describing the service you offer to prospective biters? If you like, give me yours or your mum's sales pitch or descriptive to friends so I can check whether you're unknowingly giving such types too much room for leverage or maybe inadvertently promising them a rose garden or even just letting them run with a misinterpretetation? And I presume your mum is all too aware, that under normal circumstances for the sake of the biz's reputation, that kind of impromptu holiday can't happen without a prior board vote (which is, two Ayes - motion passed, one Nay - motion denied, where assuming equal partner status and, at this point, intellectual-only shareholding)? Or that if the business functioning depends on there being two of you at all times, within reason, that you two should think about getting in a third member, even just as occasional emergency on-call staff in the form of any friends or acquaintances who are musical, need the extra dosherooni, and capable of spontaneity? ************* Your dad might have a sudden giant reaction - just to warn you - aimed at the wall (not literally), rather than anyone in particular (nothing personal). Might not. But just be aware and bear it in mind (and sympathetically warn the others), would be my advice. Because the more one suddenly looks into it, the more one realises how BIG A "THING" it is! And yet, how tiny. And yet, how BIG! Yet, how tiny... ("aargh, mind can't cope!"). (It's both.) ************* Meg turned down the nice guy for the idiot, eh? Maybe not ready for an even semi-serious, moreover drama-free relationship, then. Yep - going in through the Friendship Door is a good idea in that case. He can give her subtle examples by which to recommend himself and start to appeal to her, and meanwhile, she can 'de-slime' and recover from her 'internal injuries' so that she's back to being as fit as he is (else it could end before it's begun). ************* Uh-oh, to Tom's secret "gathering", I see trouble brewing in them there hills (dan-dan-daaaaan!). He does realise he'll have his pocket-money stopped if the folks do find out or one of them burns a hole in the carpet? LOL ************* Re Meg's ex: Just checking. ************ Re blister, "challenging the alpha female substitute while the cats are away". I think that says it all, actually. But you know what to say next time they're away and she need a lift, don't you (which, for starters, she ought ask nicely for). She'd have to beg and go, 'Oh, please-please-please-please-pleaaase, I *promise* this time I'll [etc.]' and then you can make her wait on tenterhooks as you 'Hmm...need to think about it...'. If she's really had to earn the perk to recoup it, she'll be less likely to abuse it in future with her and her friends' silly game-playing (and I'd have made her sit the whole way back in the boot or tied to the roof-rack, or no dice, LOL). But, you never know, she MIGHT, subconsciously, have deliberately chosen that very time to be naughty, to see whether just mum or just dad or both as the united and fully-functioning front of old, would be telling her off? As a less arguable sign of how the (cough) trip had gone, I mean? She *can* be an acter-outer using passive-aggressive avoidance (remember the paddy when out shopping with dad)? ************ Zoombie. Is that a hybrid Zombie or something? :-D Well, I sincerely hoop you cooped ookay in the end? And did you tell the coouncellor you'd been kept up all night, babysitting your blister? Or did the ooportunity not arise? [ducks shoe] [...shoooe] What did her face look like when she emerged from said serious talk? And did they make her apologise to yooou? ************ Scopes: "I volunteered for something I shouldn't have and now I have a four hundred pound pest." Let me guess. Ummmmm...... Got it! You volunteered as makeshift barber for your local, big friendly giant, whom, unfortunately, had giant-sized nits, and came away infested by one of them. Am I close?

And I'd have made her sit the whole way back in the boot or tied to the roof rack....would that be gagged and tied? Just kidding! Lol no Soulmate I'm afraid your not even close. It's a somewhat of a long story. Let's just say this person is the son of a friend of my mothers.

I'd have tied her with Strawberry Licorice laces and shoved one of those giant marshmallows in her mouth (which would definitely have kept her busy the whole journey home - AND THEN SOME! (I know because I've tried one!)). Sweeties. For having been 'good'. LOL Er... you're not saying you did one favour or rescue mission and now this person's gone and latched on seemingly permanently?...you mean that kind of pest? (It's not Lena in drag, is it??)

No, leech face is the oppersite she's underweight, her head is bigger then body, looks like a lolly pop ...leech shaped 'course. My mum is stay at home in the week :-D coz she can't be bothered to go back and fourth from leechs faces. she went back once at the weekend but come back with a load of things so she's clearly moving herself out of there. Would like to know how leech face is taking this :-D . If she's being a cow and not taking it well then I hope my mum has become more assertive with her which she is quite capable of doing she's not completely soft. My mum had been talking about taking the first week of them summer hols off just for a bit of a rest and she did email everyone with holiday dates. Was a bit short notice though but he so was the pre hol, my mum and dad were probably thinking about it for ages. I think the irate mum actually needs a full time nanny coz she's asked me a few times now if I would babysit for her at the weekends, this is a full weekend with over night stay...no thanks, I have a life! Business is advertised as music lessons and kids can stay all day or half a day. If it's all day I try to give them a lesson in he morning and afternoon, depends how busy it gets but otherwise there are other things for them to do. Think we deff will need a third adult soon more and more people are finding out about it :-/. Ah thats a good idea will do a pole for name of business. Found a role for my dad to do too which is the money side, likes anything to do with numbers and it has stopped him moaning about house being a crèche (y). Think it's also made him realise it's a good idea. Yeah think meg did turn down the nice guy but I plan to put this right :-) seem to of got over ex bf quite quick. Tom could of got into trouble but thank fully he did tell his mum and dad he had friends coming and promised to keep house tidy and made sure he could use all the rooms for them to sleep in (should have more faith in him, bad me) . The only thing I think they did in the day time was play on his bl**dy Nintendo Switch game thing and go out at night for food, which is why I planned to stay away coz I thought meg and I would get ignored! Was a good thing Tom stuck to his promise, coz his middle brother came back from somewhere (travels a lot and comes and goes when he wants) and the first thing he did was throw a bit of a childish tantrum and chuck toms friends things out of 'his room' on to the landing, and then called parents, to complain. They were not impressed that their hol interrupted but they backed tom up, which his bro didn't like :-/. Then tom and bro had an argument and in the end his bro did leave to go somewhere else. Tom did provoke him a bit by sarcastically saying 'why don't you go and stay with your gf...oh no, wait sorry I forgot, she dumped you again, for being a tw*t' , not completely innocent! Only meet middle bro a few times but it's very obvious he has some sort of jealousy with tom taking his place of being the youngest which was 18 nearly 19 years ago! He constantly makes snide comments about it, and it does get annoying after while. Hes like 14 years older, makes him look a bit weird but maybe there is more to it . Tom will either ignore him say something back, or his mum and oldest bro usually stick up for him. Did suggest to tom now that his friends have gone and him and bro have another 3 days alone together that he could do a peace offering and cook for him one night. Don't have to sit, eat and talk but might be a nice thing to do maybe? But tom looked at me as if was crazy...and was like WHY would I do that?! Ok that's a no then! I find it interesting, which is why I'm writing about it and also it's on my mind a bit coz they're alone together and when I have been there the tension is obvious :-/. Haha, I so would of strapped sis to the top of my car, if it was legal :-D. I did tell her at the time when she was showing off that I wasn't going to give her anymore lifts for the rest of the summer and her answer was 'whatever! You can't even go to the right place anyway!' . Grrrrrr, I could tell by the look on her face she just wanted a reaction so I didn't give her one, even tho I really, really, really, really, really wanted to, decided to it was better to keep mouth shut till parents got back. Sis was angry with me after serious talk with my mum and dad coz I told on her...like she really thought she was going to get away it! I thought my mum was going stick up for her and say she's just at that awkward age but they were both really angry with her and said she better hope I get on my course. She was told to apologise but she refused and said everyone was being mean to her, then stormed up to her room and slammed the door. Still wait for an apology...Bye bye cute lil sis, hello monster sis (6). Kinda coped in interview, did tell them I had no sleep, just incase they thought I had been out partying all night and wasnt taking interview seriously, they were nice about it. I had to do a maths and English test, which was not prepared for but apparently these subjects are added on as extra lessons, ugh I escaped maths! Think it was to see if I had a brain :-P .

Soz, Lils - insanely busy again! Have read your post, though, and will respond just as soon as I get a (asnaffafckunasnukkAAARGH!!!!) chance! Been planning to for ...well, since the day you posted, actually! Just posting this little note is an achievement, lately. Gaaah... Do you know, I've forgotten what it's like to have a day of rest! Anyhoo, enough screechy whiny violin nonsense from moi; bear with a little longer. (Where's Scopes got to, anyway?)

LILS, Soulmate sorry about the lapse in time. I've been hit with problems and situations. A co worker/friends wife died whom I knew. Then I get a report from the assisted living social worker saying they feel that it's necessary to bring in hospice for my mother. All this drama is beginning to settle down here as I've been putting out fires so to speak whew! August has not been a good month..... Mercury retrograde?

Oh noooo, Scopesie! Sorry. :-( PS: *Life* is dramatic (all say "Aye!"). It literally *is* a roller-coaster (psych version).

Lilster, Human lollypop, LOL. Must be why she's getting licked! [ducks rotten tomatoes and bricks] No, were I her, I wouldn't feel bothered to go back and forth, either. LOL (Cor, your mum is so diplomatic, isn't she? I'd have just said - 'Am I going back? Do what? - back to Colditz? - God, NO, bleugh!') "Would like to know how leech face is taking this Grinning " ...And so are you! Translation: YOU WANT TO SEE FOR YOURSELF SO'S TO GET TO *CROW AND GLOAT*, ADMIT IT! :-D Fairenoughski. ******* "no thanks, I have a life!" Damn right. And you shouldn't sprog until you're almost BORED of it. (- Note that one, it normally costs £1890 to send away for from The Bureau of Deceptively Useful Life Facts (of which I am, indeed, president - why'd you ask?). Don't ever say I don't ever give you anything.) ******* It's not just music lessons, then, is it. It's music-centred. But even if you're giving them two separate lessons, they're still only an hour-long each, surely?, making just two hours out of presumably 8.30-5.30, leaving 7 more hours? Are any of the other activities you do with them, likewise music- or rhythm-based? Otherwise, it's 'music 'n stuff' so you need to think of a name that encapsulates that. It's still 'Nanna Joanna', I'm afraid. You have both the babysitting aspect and the piano lesson theme in that one name. But that's not to say it's the only name or phrase that could do that. Get your thinking caps on... What about Crechendo? Or does that veer too heavily back towards the childminding, as opposed to merely babysitting, angle? Is your piano a grand or baby grand? If so, you could think of a name that began or included the word 'Grand', as in 'a grand old time' or "Grand Designs", that sort of thing. What about if the third person you brought in were a registered childminder (with limited work right now)? You'd then have a team of 3 (partner-wise or partners and associate), comprising, music teacher, form tutor, and playground monitor stroke pastoral carer. Oh WELL DONE for getting your dad involved! Genius! Oh, well, it's a family biz already, isn't it. In which case - Sound of Music. The Vonn Trap. Nah. Too negative (shh!, I'm brainstorming, stream of consciousness style LOL)... Hills Alive? Too obscure. Bloody nora. I know it's in there somewhere.... Doe Ray Mee. I know it's a little more brand-like than explanatory, but... easy to remember? :-) ...denotes the musical aspect? It's akin to Supersize Me. As in, "DOE RAY me!". But then, it fails to suggest the babysitting angle (meh). Scrap that. Edelweiss!!! It's a high-altitude flower (talented, ambitious kids). It's White (innocence of childhood). It's cute-looking and wee. And star-shaped. It grows and blossoms...as long as it's nurtured and fed, including (this case) intellectually and emotionally. The flower itself would make a GREAT logo or logo feature! And it brings instantly to mind The Sound Of Music which itself then evokes images of the nanny + the captain (Christopher Plummer sang it) + ....bloody kids everwhere! LOL And keeping them educationally - ALWAYS educationally - entertained (learning through play). Houston, I think it's a goer. May I schedule a board meeting to get your feedback, Ma'am? LOL Anyway, enough of that or I'll be here all night. *********** Hah! You two wouldn't have been ignored. You'd have been shown off to and postured in front of... [David Attenborough voice, please]...."Thee...COMPETING MALES...BEGIN-their...mating rituals...ON their Nintendo Switch Game thing...to show off...their biological-telemetric...prowess....in front of....thee..in-season..females.........TYPICALLY,..however,...thee females....are not..im-pressed...so, REALISING... the males...switch to their OTHER tactic of....seeing who can take the piss..out of one another....the best ...and most hilariously................Whicheveroneofthem...WINS......earns..thee ...GRUDGING respect...of thee....alphafemale.....................Although this is..not...themost EFFICIENT of copulatory methods......it apparently is....vital TO.. thesurvival....of...thisparticular..specie." PS: Unrelated question: Have you seen Summer anywhere? It is PEEING down outside right now! :-p *********** Wot, I gotta deal with his middle brother now? LOL (Book an appointment with my secretary, Scopes.) *********** Anyhoo, that was a really positive post. As for blister: sounds like she (sub-c) prepared a little two-part test of, Is Lily still on the kid bench or the grown-up's bench, let's see, and, Will mum and dad act united in telling me off as a twosome? (She's such an acter-outer, isn't she?) You might want to strike alegience with her over something...create a little secret between you (nothing harmful), I don't know... just to drive home the point that you can be BOTH for a while, but that doesn't mean she can push her luck and manipulate you. *********** "Kinda coped in interview, did tell them I had no sleep, just incase they thought I had been out partying all night and wasnt taking interview seriously, they were nice about it. I had to do a maths and English test, which was not prepared for but apparently these subjects are added on as extra lessons, ugh I escaped maths! Think it was to see if I had a brain" Yeah, maths - go figure (har-har). "Tdell me aboudt yurr childt-hoot.........und the square roodt of Pi". Mebbie it's to see whether your left hemisphere is as strong as your right, i.e. that you're balanced? After all, you can't be a good therapist if you're all Cap'n Kirk. But neither can you if you're all Spock. Ya needs both. *********** What bin 'app'nin' since then-then?

My mum is home permanently now, going back and fourth from spare room to her and my dads room and otherwise they're getting in quite well :-D. Have seen leech face recently, she's been round a couple of times since my mum has been back home and she even said hi to me, which I don't thinks she's ever done before. Was very tempted to do what she did with tom and go 'ffs' when I saw her but didn't. Cat quite tell if my mum is happy to have her in our house or if she's just being polite. My dad has also been looking at her suspiciously too, not too sure if she's trying to keep her self involved. Clearly had nothing else better to do with her time! It's guitar lessons too but piano (got a baby grand piano) seems to be more popular. So maybe strings and keys or erm... I'm .really bad at coming up with names! ohhh, I like doe ray mee, that's going on the list! Littler kids get bored after 20 mins even with encouragement the older ones who are more advanced seem to have longer attention spans, and are more keen if it's more modern music they like. My mum does have a couple of friends mainly teachers, one is very musical, who could help out when the times one which I think will be in oct half term and at xmas. I found my self confronting toms middle bro, told him to shut up ...in a round about sort of way. The short version is he was being a pedantic idiot, kept muttering sh*tty things in ear shot of me, but behind toms back and picking on every little thing he said and did, so I challenged him, something that I don't normally do :-/. And his gf (I don't even know her), backed me up, nice to know it wasn't just me! He got defensive with what I said and walked off in a mood saying he didn't have to listen to a 'little' (little! :-|)18 yr old :-| so I pointed out that actually we were both adults and I didn't have to listen to him either. Probably thought b*tch but I didnt care and normally I would sit and worry but meh. He's been quite nice to me since :-/. What's been happening since is I got on counselling course on the advanced course rather then intermediate :-/ not with the same tutor but never mind . Tom going to uni which ovbiosuly knew but it's bl**dy hours away by car, hoping train will be better, have mixed feelings about this. Yeah sis is deff is acting out at the mo but fiiiinally got an apology from her, after a couple of days she was being nice and wanting to know if I got on the counselling course. yeah, think we missed out summer?! All I've seen is rain too, and it's been a bit muggy but that's it. I get to go somewhere warm tomoz :-D. prob turn into a 'lobster for a week and probs come bk to even more crap, colder weather brrrr.

LILS guess we'll have to see what happens with your mum and dad in the long term. How long Leech face will be in the picture is uncertain. I can't really think of anything else to say right now I think my mind is somewhere else.

"My mum is home permanently now, going back and fourth from spare room to her and my dads room and otherwise they're getting in quite well" Made the usual mistake of picturing this "musical beds" scenario and ended up peeing myself laughing. Getting in. Was that a Freudian? No, but, actually - all credit to your mum. She's not making the usual female mistake of forgiving him in one fell swoop (i.e. pre-paying for good behaviour) and is making him earn it back in stages (tick!). I wonder if that was Auntie's tip-off or just an instinctual move on her part? LF is being nice because this time she's on your territory. I'd actually have more respect and make more mental allowance for her were she continuing to be as much a cow as before. Get what I'm saying? "Hi".... I'd have replied, 'I wasn't, but now you're here, it might help'. "Was very tempted to do what she did with tom and go 'ffs' when I saw her but didn't." ...or that, LOL. No, you're too much of a lady. You could probably get bro to say it, though, LOL. I think mum's probably just being polite and intends to phase her out/wean her off imperceptibly for the sake of future office relations. Not surprised your dad's eyeballing her 'slittily'. You did inform him that time, did you not? "got a baby grand piano)" At your age? You pampered little princess, you! LOL Ping! What if you just called it Baby Grands? (Doesn't cover the guitar or other activities, but it is a good global concept?) Or there's Apron Strings? (God, here s/he goes again...) I like Doe Ray Mee as well. Try it out with 'the board', see what they think. Not 'erm', though, LOL. Strings 'n Things? Nah, takes the focus away from the piano (one thinks of keys rather than strings) plus sounds too 'craft-y'. I still like Tinkle Tots, actually. What about Tinka Plinka (as in, a play on Little Tinker)? Wait - I've got it: GONE CHOPIN! Or GOING CHOPIN. Do either of that say it all or what! (Thoughts?) There again, if we're going down that route (well, I am, you're more getting dragged along, LOL), then... All Bach (as in, and no bite). Do you play or teach anything by Einaudi, by the way? "who could help out when the times one which I think will be in oct half term and at xmas." Que? And would you like an olive in that? LOL Ahh, it's nice that you defended Tom like that. I'll bet he appreciated it. I'd (just to piss you off with yet another missed bat-back repartee) have said, 'I'd rather be a little 18-year-old than a little 2-year-old'. Or, 'Frankly, from what I've seen - I'm surprised you can count that high'. But obviously whatever you did say did the trick if there he was, very next time, licking your behind. You got offered a place on the advanced course? Blimey, well done!!! They know talent when they see it, then? :-) "Tom going to uni which ovbiosuly knew but it's bl**dy hours away by car, hoping train will be better, have mixed feelings about this." Well, you knew it was an unavoidable inevitable. But look on the bright side: every occasion is going to feel all the more special for the build-up. Plus, it's a good test of your relationship. But not that much because, well, student holidays aren't exactly few and far between, are they. PS: "ovbiosuly " :-D How many hours exactly? And how long's his course for? Sis: that you got an apology both vocal and behavioural is the main thing. A lot of siblings just don't. Ever. So she at least has more maturity than not. ...Either that or she needs another lift somewhere in the next few days, LOL. Watch that space.. Hot again at the mo so - mustn't grumble. Oh, yes, your holiday, I almost forgot! I expect you're on it as I speak? (Silence means Yes LOL.) Anyway, all chat aside, that's brilliant news about the folks! I'll wait to hear how things panned out on the beach and off, then. ****** Scopes, try to think of where you were when you last had it. ;-) (Sounds rude - isn't. LOL)

I know it was in regards to the 400 lb pests. With his persistence with emails and pestering me he now finally wants to end his partnership with me. As is far as I'm concerned the never was one. When I go back to Cali to visit my mom I'll give him back his whole kit and caboodle and that'll be the end of it.

I just became a member.....so hi to all....my parents divorced 4 years ago,my mum only just told me .my father cant talk with parkison's.my mother has a new boyfriend and kicked my father out...I am devastated,as are my children and my brother.....

Hi SERIOUSLYME... Did your mom divorce your dad because of his Parkinson's disease? How awful....did you start a thread? I haven't looked, that's so wrong. ;-(

Gonna get some feed back on a name to music school next week and get a name sorted ...hopefully. Wouldn't surprise me if aunty gave my mum some advice but it feels different this time as in the timing is right and doing it properly, which hopefully means it's permanent, unlike last time. There has also been a little bit of a change in my mum, which is that she's more assertive, keeping an eye on sibs behaviour (mainly sis at the mo, bro is an angel in comparison) and says what she thinks more but it's all being done without her turning in to ice queen, which is what she did a bit last time. Yep get what your saying, Ok, I'll be nice to leech face for the moment but I'm keeping an eye on her! Yep my dad knows all about her, think he's waiting to see if she says anything offensive first. Holiday was good, aunty and dad picked a nice place, my dad is taking all the credit at the moment. Hopefully it's another country he'll happily go back to he seemed to like it. Parents went on a couple of day trips out and they did also cancel my mums room and she was going to share with sis if she needed to. Don't think this happened. Bros room was next to theirs and he was giving daily up updates and by day three he just said 'I need ear plugs!' Did feel a bit sorry for him but not enough to swap rooms with him, which he was trying to persuade tom and I to do coz our room was safely far away. Some eventful things did happen. My dad managed to embarrass me on the way there, was going to happen at some point. He was sitting next to tom on the plane and not long after take off, tom nudged me and said 'should be he flattered?' Didn't know what he was on about until I saw my dads hand wrapped around his forearm (my dad hates flying, my mum holds his hand during take off and landing but she was with the sibs stooping them from fighting). When I told my dad to Get.Off. realised he had completely zoned himself out and probably taken a sleeping tablet or something. At least he wasnt actually holding toms hand and luckily tom has a sense of humour/wasn't too freaked out. Steered clear of him on the way back though. And sis! Can't say she was behaved on hol coz she didn't. She was pushing everyone's buttons and managed to argue with everyone (but tom) before we got on the plane. On the second day she threw my dads 'holiday folder' in the swimming pool...my dad kinda let out a girly scream :-/ and was too concerned about retrieving it to say anything to her. It my mum who was the first react and then took her back to the hotel room when she refused to apologise, to have words and sis stayed there for most of the day sulking. But coz of my mums reaction I'm guessing they have spoken to each other about my dad possibly being asperger. Toms course is 3 years. It's nearly 5 hours away and that's without traffic/stops and by train it's not much better. Not just the distance it's everything I'm worrying about, but I can't tell him what to do but it was a topic we completely avoided talking about on hol. Had a nice with him though :-) it seemed more special. He doesn't know the meaning of chilling out by the pool though. There was quite a lot to do and he intended on doing evvvvvvvverrrrrrryyything some more then once. I had him bouncing at my feet very few hours going 'Lils do to you to go waterskiing, play tennis/snorkelling (I got stung by jelly fish doing that, that was fun!)/ waterskiing/go out on a boat????'. Couldn't say no to him either. Was surprised I'm on the advanced course, I double checked this but apparently they think I'm more suited and want to see how I do in the groupwork session. This was explained in the interview where once a week we sit as a group and a mentor person, who we don't know comes in and there is no topic, we see 'what comes up' ...think I explained that right. Apparently people react in different ways. Could be interesting will find out this week! Bye.

LILS water skiing is quite invigorating give it a go!!

Scopes, Can see what you mean about water skiing being invigorating, I did try a couple of times but it was hard staying up ! Think you're either good at it or not :-S

LILS i used to have a boat and had a go at it a few times. I'm not real good at it by manage to get by. Happiest days of a boat owner are the first day you get it and the last day ya get rid of it.

" i used to have a boat and had a go at it a few times." Now that *definitely* sounds rude. :-D (Is that why sailors refer to all such vessels as 'she'?) (Was she a goer, that's what *I* want to know, LOL) Lils, What was the consensus of your poll, name-wise? I've got another for you: Li'l Fingers. Or Li'l Maestros. (Geddit?) After all, it was all your idea? So when's Tom going to take a role, eh? He's a psychologist, he should find sales and marketing, or strategising of, as natural as f*rting - yes? ****** "Wouldn't surprise me if aunty gave my mum some advice but it feels different this time as in the timing is right and doing it properly, which hopefully means it's permanent, unlike last time." Agree. ****** Noooo. Was *not* suggesting you go out of your way to be nice to that thing. I was trying to point out that if the woman's excuse were lack of realisation or control then how come she could manage to rein it in, just because she were in a different building? So - GOTT'ER! This proves she knew perfectly well what she were doing (and why) and proves she's toxic. So if you want to shove a custard pie in her face (custard and cactus) then I trust your judgement implicitly and that you did so because it was at the time necessary or befitting, not to mention now your right. You have a right to self-defend against anyone over anything that dares to threaten your fundamental, humanistic rights. What's the latest on that score, anyway? ****** "my dad is taking all the credit at the moment." Knowing Auntie as I feel I do, now - I'm betting she advised he do so, for obvious reasons. Hopefully, it's another country he'll *not* want to go back to, considering your mum was evidently sick of all the 'going back'. Now that he's been forced by events and circumstances to step out of his comfort zone, WITH success, he should continue doing that until being out of his comfort zone in that regard *becomes* his comfort zone (sense?). Tell him, 'Dad, the Where matters not, you obviously have a talent for doing things properly and thoroughly whereby failure and disappointment doesn't even factor, so - why not use that skill and surprise and wow mum for those Brownie points EVERY year!'. ****** "he just said 'I need ear plugs!' " Good grief, LOL. Still - they were obviously having a good time if remembering he was just the other side of the wall didn't enter their heads! ****** "He was sitting next to tom on the plane and not long after take off, tom nudged me and said 'should be he flattered?' Didn't know what he was on about until I saw my dads hand wrapped around his forearm (my dad hates flying, my mum holds his hand during take off and landing but she was with the sibs stooping them from fighting). When I told my dad to Get.Off. realised he had completely zoned himself out and probably taken a sleeping tablet or something. At least he wasnt actually holding toms hand and luckily tom has a sense of humour/wasn't too freaked out. Steered clear of him on the way back though." :-D :-D :-D Classic! And anecdote fodder for years to come! ****** "And sis! Can't say she was behaved on hol coz she didn't. She was pushing everyone's buttons and managed to argue with everyone (but tom) before we got on the plane. On the second day she threw my dads 'holiday folder' in the swimming pool" 'Look at me, look at me, LOOK AT MEEEEE!!!'. PS: "my dad kinda let out a girly scream" :-D 'Not the folder, it took me WEEKS, noooooooooo!!!!'. ******* Tom's uni: I'm guessing Wales. There'll be luvverlee for him, then. Yeah... Five hours... yeah....See what you mean. Well, that's the downside. The upside is, BECAUSE it demands such a long, arduous journey, you'll either of you stay for a good week or more at a time. Comme ci, comme ca / Asi, como este. Alternatively, there's always halfway point...an hotel or B&B? ******* "Couldn't say no to him either." Couldn't you? Why not? PS: Jellyfish?... on a tennis court? Isn't evolution marvellous! ('Holiday-based comedic-complaints forms are situated here --->........here --->........and here --->') ******* "Was surprised I'm on the advanced course" Tsk. You need to ketchup to yourself, Baby Tomato. ******* " This was explained in the interview where once a week we sit as a group and a mentor person, who we don't know comes in and there is no topic, we see 'what comes up' ...think I explained that right. Apparently people react in different ways. Could be interesting will find out this week! Bye." Improv. To see if you can deal with 'left field'. So how was it? (Sell.)

PS: Who won? You or the jellyfish?

I like those new suggestions too! From the poll so far doe ray mee is coming out on top but I'm still waiting to here back. In the summer hols tom did come round and started to kick a football around with some of the kids, which they really liked if they didn't want to do arty stuff and did turn into a nearly everyday thing . He also thinks we should do a website, not that he knows how to build one but probably knows someone who does. Might be a good idea, just don't want to overadvertise coz we got enough kids coming at the moment but other info could go up on website like holidays and stuff. Ooooh I see, Well haven't gone out of my way to be nice to leech face, only acknowledge her if I have to. Custard pie ready and waiting if needed :-). No sign of her since coming back from holiday, was half expecting her to be waiting outside the house on a the day we got back but she's stayed away... so far...maybe she's gone and got a life! To be fair to sis, she knows my dad is potentially asperges but I don't think she's understands properly, so ive been enlightening her a bit, now that she's stopped being moody, but only when she feels like listening, think there is other stuff going on at the moment. Couldn't say no coz I didn't want tom to get bored :-/ and it was quite nice that he was wanting to try everything. Bro was more then happy to go and do something with him if I really didn't want to. Er jelly fish would of won at tennis, think anything could beat me! Tom realised how crap I was and bro took my place quite quickly :-(. Toms going to uni in the north east, sat nav says 5 hours, I'm not convinced. We have now talked which at first turned into an argument, I knew it would! There was tension building up but neither of us wanted to go there. Tom said that he can't get excited or talk about it much coz me and his mum are going all 'emotional on him' ( so sorry about that *rolls eyes), he really hates clinginess but it's actually more his mum who's getting like this, not me, but I think that's normal for her to be like that. I just don't like how quickly the time is going. He also said that he actually feels quite anxious about it, which apparently I wasn't taking the into consideration, but he didn't tell me and when I pointed out that he choose to go to the furthest one away, he got angry :-/. Anyways was a bit stupid, and we both realised it isn't worth arguing about, and wouldn't be a good start so just got to find ways of making it work and finding nice places to meet up half way is one idea. I like college, made a few girly friends, which I was seriously lacking in, not on the same course as them though. Like the tutor, he's a bit more calmer then the other one, and like that I got lots of books to read. The first group session was a bit weird coz our tutor leaves and a mentor person comes in but doesn't say anything or introduce herself, we were told her name beforehand. If you say hello to her she just nods at you, which a few people got really offended by and don't understand why she's even there. This week it was just random talking. I think it get it, I think she is there to observe us, maybe indivially and take mental notes as to how we react to whatever comes up. I'm waiting for it to kick off :-).

Well LILS Soulmate mum passed away last Thursday 7:15 pm. She died peacefully and she lived a long life. ;-(

Thanks scopes. Aw no! that's sad, sorry to hear that Soulmate :-(.

LILS there was no quality of life left for her. Btw it was my mum not Soulmates sorry for the misunderstanding. I should've said "my mum passed away " Thanks for your condolences LILS. As one of her friends put it we are saddened for her loss but yet we are relieved

I read it like you were saying my mum, as well. Was about to type, "EH?!?" because mine died YONKS ago. But, jeeez, I'm so sorry, you poor b*gger. Anything I can do? Lils, I was going to post tonight but out of respect I'd like to leave this post 'still' until tomorrow, if that's okay with you? The ether equivalent of four minute's silence.

Well thank you Soulmate now it's time to move on.

Omg!!!! +0( how did I misread that?! Sorry...And for your loss scope :-(. Soulmate that's fine :-)

Lils, I missed the boat tonight (er, last night) but you're first on the list tomorrow. Meanwhile, I'd better climb into my coffin before the sun starts to come up. ;-) Scopes, it'll be time to move on when it's time to move on. It's not your decision, just because you THINK you feel okay enough. The grieving process insists on being had and it's better to allow it to run its course *during* the event than allow it to remain thus get to act inconveniently - possibly 'highly' - as a flashback period at any point in your future by bursting forth in recommencement without warning and knocking you for six. But if you want or need to do it 'behind your own back' - sleep more. Gorge on sleep as much as you can because (dreams being a peek) that's when your back-room boys do all the reading, working-out and filing away in the appropriate mental cabinets *for* you. This is a case where you *can* 'get the staff'. :-) 55p, please, less a 100% Loyalty discount.

Yes Soulmate I've heard about the grieving process and believe me it's not the first time for me. My mother's urn will sit next to my father's and my baby sister's

Oh. :-( So you're an orphan like me, then? I think urns are a lovely idea. Means you can still talk to them...something real to focus on. Plus, you don't need to make a special trip to a grave- or ashes-site, you can prattle away in your own housie. Are they pretty urns? Where do you keep them - over the mantle? Wish I had one. My father is a Bourgenvilla tree! (Hi dad!...I see your'e branching out? / 'Leaf' it out, mate?!) (groan...Abbot 'n Costello we were not but - near enough...for us, anyway, LOL.) But it's in Espana. But I'll see him again soon enough. :-) Doesn't stop me from chatting away to him, though (I have a little shrine in the kitchen comprising a funny poem in a gold frame, all about him and what he was like, that I wrote to read at his funeral, 'in the shade of' a beautiful glass Daisy vase containing silk Daisies (those being pertinent)). He hears as well - I have concrete evidence galore. ...unless it's someone/something pretending to be him or letting me just assume it is? Bit like that film starring Jodie Foster - what's it called... (tsk - google)..."Contact". Have you seen it? PS: Yeah, I know you've heard of it (ha-ha) but when you're in a place where you're unsure which was is up, it can help to have the President of The Bleedin' Obvious Society remind of the bleedin' obvious. ;-)

Back to you for a mo, Lils... ******************* "I like those new suggestions too! From the poll so far doe ray mee is coming out on top but I'm still waiting to here back. In the summer hols tom did come round and started to kick a football around with some of the kids, which they really liked if they didn't want to do arty stuff and did turn into a nearly everyday thing . He also thinks we should do a website, not that he knows how to build one but probably knows someone who does. Might be a good idea, just don't want to overadvertise coz we got enough kids coming at the moment but other info could go up on website like holidays and stuff. Ooooh I see, Well haven't gone out of my way to be nice to leech face, only acknowledge her if I have to. Custard pie ready and waiting if needed Smiling. No sign of her since coming back from holiday, was half expecting her to be waiting outside the house on a the day we got back but she's stayed away... so far...maybe she's gone and got a life! To be fair to sis, she knows my dad is potentially asperges but I don't think she's understands properly, so ive been enlightening her a bit, now that she's stopped being moody, but only when she feels like listening, think there is other stuff going on at the moment. Couldn't say no coz I didn't want tom to get bored :-/ and it was quite nice that he was wanting to try everything. Bro was more then happy to go and do something with him if I really didn't want to. Er jelly fish would of won at tennis, think anything could beat me! Tom realised how crap I was and bro took my place quite quickly Crying. Toms going to uni in the north east, sat nav says 5 hours, I'm not convinced. We have now talked which at first turned into an argument, I knew it would! There was tension building up but neither of us wanted to go there. Tom said that he can't get excited or talk about it much coz me and his mum are going all 'emotional on him' ( so sorry about that *rolls eyes), he really hates clinginess but it's actually more his mum who's getting like this, not me, but I think that's normal for her to be like that. I just don't like how quickly the time is going. He also said that he actually feels quite anxious about it, which apparently I wasn't taking the into consideration, but he didn't tell me and when I pointed out that he choose to go to the furthest one away, he got angry :-/. Anyways was a bit stupid, and we both realised it isn't worth arguing about, and wouldn't be a good start so just got to find ways of making it work and finding nice places to meet up half way is one idea. I like college, made a few girly friends, which I was seriously lacking in, not on the same course as them though. Like the tutor, he's a bit more calmer then the other one, and like that I got lots of books to read. The first group session was a bit weird coz our tutor leaves and a mentor person comes in but doesn't say anything or introduce herself, we were told her name beforehand. If you say hello to her she just nods at you, which a few people got really offended by and don't understand why she's even there. This week it was just random talking. I think it get it, I think she is there to observe us, maybe indivially and take mental notes as to how we react to whatever comes up. I'm waiting for it to kick off Smiling." ******************** Yeah. Doe Ray Me [one 'e'] has been growing on me, too. It does say it all. Certainly to anyone musical and/or who's seen Sound of Music and can make the (aaargh...click-whirr-creak-groan) connection. Probably 99.99999% of your target market, I imagine. After all, it's not like it doesn't get repeated on BeeB 1 every single bloody Christmas, is it. I remember on MatchDotCom (yeah, alright - I was bored without the wasband to daily, secretly gnash my teeth at, but didn't want to date, thus t'was the perfect choice, okay?...jeez, gimmie a break! ;-p) one of the set blurb questions was, Name some of your favourite things. Tee-hee - need I say more re. what I chose to put? (I know. Aren't I.) But, anyway, I digress. Doe Ray Me. Should look very striking, colour-reversed against a backdrop of a row of Black & White piano keys as a logo design, eh? Or they could be Yellow letters on B&W - even more striking. And Yellow is a childlike primary (albeit would incur greater present and future colour repro costs as opposed to straight B&W). You could even add a little (B&W) daisy or Eidelweiss on a curved stalk, somewhere...say top left. Unless you have your own visual concept in mind? Pray do tell, "M'colleague"? If you didn't mind the slightly extra printing cost in favour of colour, and wanted more sophistication, either the flower or the 3-D letter shadowing could be comprised of Gold (mmmwa, dwahling!). Strapline [female] voiceover suggestion (for future telly advertising): "...Because not everything in life is Black & White". You can reverse-extrapolate from there, I'm sure, regarding the general theme of the ad. If not, however, and I'm rambling, it's this: Sometimes a great mum can't always *be* a great mum, rather than isn't willing or interested in being. Modern life gets in the way of motherhood. But she can if she's clever and knows [1] to delegate and [2] instinctually who/what to delegate *to*. The deeply understanding, female- (and female-position) friendly, guilt-salver angle. And the entire tune playing in the audio background would be rather jolly, too! Especially as it ends in an upward octave. And in fact, it's a very evocative tune, for obvious, sentimentality reasons. Also - what a fun and catchy phone greeting: "Doh Ray Me, can I help you?". As for hold music... :-) So that would adjust down the extra repro costs right there. Yep, very powerful choice, Modom. Now you have check it's available as a company name, either nationally or internationally. And then secure the email addy etc. Yes, an, for the time being, 'information only' website would be sensible. And then it's ready to turn into a custom catcher once you are. Preparation better than catch-up as well as cure, aye. Does Tom know how to do that kind of techie stuff? (Pitching in, eh? I say!...Making himself a member of the fam biz right before uni? Relax - you're safe. :-)) ********** Oh, Leena's been staying away, has she? Ah-hah. Pickings *not* so rich, after all. More trouble than it's worth. "Neext sucker!..." If this proves permanent, I shall, on behalf of the University Of Life, as one of its appointed lecturers (;-)), be able to crown you officially as a great Anti Narcissist. :-) Aka "SuperNova Empath". Gone and got a life, though? Nah. Someone else's. (Get with the programme, Dylan!) (Don't say 'Dylan who?' or I'll shoot meself) ********** Blister's stopped being moody? Crikey, that was quick?! Well done, then. Wonder if that 'other stuff' is her having started to notice boys and one in particulickular? ********** "Couldn't say no coz I didn't want tom to get bored :-/" Listen. If he's within 5 miles of you, he ain't bored. Alright? Know thy power, luvvie. But it ain't of the Motherly variety. And anyway, if all else fails there's always building sandcastles for the little darling. ;-p (Matron...? Newborn baby for the broody young lady in Bed 2, please! And make it snappy. And easily bored.) (:-D) ...or are you trying to tell me Tommy-Wommy-Woo-Woos is hyperactive?? PS: You're already a top biz woman in the making (reading all of that - CLEARLY!). You can't be good at tennis and everything else as well. That would just be greedy. ********** Of course it's normal. These days anyway (usually a bit too soon to curtain the Mothering and Being Mothered Programmes). So, yeah, your small portion would then prove the tipping point. But as I've just pointed out, he's doing some clinging symptoms of his own ("on me 'ead, son!.......YOR GO-IN 'OME INNAN AM-BER-LANCE"). "He also said that he actually feels quite anxious about it, which apparently I wasn't taking the into consideration, but he didn't tell me " Well! Tsk! Couldn't you just READ HIS MIND?!!! I mean - you *are* his mother, aren't you? Good grief. Bad mother. (Would you like to borrow my frying-pan? It's a bit head-shaped but...save you wearing it in.) "when I pointed out that he choose to go to the furthest one away, he got angry :-/" Flooded, actually. And then converted that guilt and shame into more (yawn) "manly" emotions, Annoyance and Anger. I FEEL BAD, I DIDN'T FEEL BAD TIL YOU SAID THAT, EQUALS, YOU'RE TO BLAME...AND - LOOK - TWO PLUS TWO IS SIX SO I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT. PS: manspeak "I feel quite anxious" = womanspeak "AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!!!". Eez being thick. So that equals, eez upset A LOT and just not wanting to admit it. Thing is, though, Lils, he needs to ensure he not only can GET a catch like yourself, but also keep her, i.e. bring home lots of bacon until he hits retirement. You've got to be eligible before you'll be eligible. Or you do in this capitalist day and age ("godda have a jayyyy ohhh beee, if you wanna beee wiiith mee"). WHEN did he apply for this uni and what was the climate between the two of you at that point? Also, where else provided the course or curriculum he was after? Anyway, he's not there yet. Who knows? Maybe he won't be able to take it? (Psst! - he won't! :-) Already he can't!) And - exactly! - nice places to meet up. Trust me, it'll keep your Honeymoon period prolonged considerably, meaning, you could end up with a very thick, very strong foundation. But it's simple: if you're meant to be, this will make you stronger; if you're not, it'll prove your undoing. What a superb test of strength. One your mum and dad could have done with so as to avoid all this recent crud, note. Also, you're about to have a thriving business to run. Trust me, you and the biz will benefit from that pent-up sexual energy, particularly where creative thinking's concerned (same energy tank). Time will go *very* quickly. He'll miss you more. All the chess pieces are in timely fashion falling into their correct places, ready for the off. For you and to a slightly lesser extent, Tom, months spent apart will feel like mere weeks. You'll be seeing each other every "two weeks", which will feel enough. It'll be fine. PS: Girl friends or girlie friends? There is a difference, you know. ;-) *********** [turn on 8point] You can't say more calmer, soz; it's 'more calm' or 'calmer'. If you mean one notch up from 'calmer', it's 'calmer still'. [turn off 8point and grin, cheesily-placatingly] *********** Assessing you all. Yes. Well done. :-) Have you re-read this entire thread yet? You can practically SEE you rising from the ashes-ette and soaring! Go on, give it a read. Let me know if you can see it.

I liked lil fingers too, but that seems to be already taken so back to doe Rae me coz that won the poll in the end and will make sure that's not already taken! Like those idea for logos too :-), I think I will put that all to sis when the time comes and let her do the designing, she's good at that. Nope Tom doesn't know how to do the techie stuff (not too gd at that kinda thing) but I'm sure he knows someone who does or he could learn if he wants future job. Leech face is just calling my mum at the moment to 'check in', my mum also does have a good reason not to take her call everyday coz aunty is staying with us - aunty has been bad! :-| went into hospital for an operation without telling any one, not even bf or sons, she says it 'wasn't a big deal' hmmmmm. Not l the first time she's done this! This time, she got sent home unwell, and ended up going bk in to hospital when bf contacted her after he hadn't heard from her - he then told us. She was (and still is) refusing all help at home which she needs, just too stubborn to admit she needs it. she refused to go stay with bf or for him to stay with her to be looked after, so my dad put his foot down told her to stop being so bl**dy stupid and if she was really going to refuse all help that was being offered then she was staying with us NOT going back home alone which is what she wanted. He loves her really :-D and he got more husband points from my mum. Good things are aunty gets looked after, coz neither of my cousins have bothered to come see her ...maybe they're p*ssed off with her, but still. Leech face stays away coz she's scared of aunty and it's stopped my mum from bedroom hopping :-). All good with the parents btw, nothing to report with them. Sis is still being a bit moody, but not as bad as before. The other stuff is to do with boys, as in, she says she prefers to be friends with them then girls, dunno if she likes any of them. She made friends with some really bitchy girls when she first started secondary school, now doesn't all the arguing so she's distanced her self from them, made friends with some boys and now getting picked on coz of this and plays football with them/being a bit of a tomboy. Yeah, I think Tom is hyperactive! before I thought he just into lots of different sports but became a lot more obvious on holiday that he didn't stop :-/. Seems to only have one button, which is 'GOooooooo', until he eventually crashes... and everyone else. I should of got him one of those fidget spinners for his birthday! Tom had to get three B's or more at A level for him to do the course at this particular uni, which he did, not too sure why it was this one he wanted to go to. The other two unis which were closer did similar courses. There was a bit of tension building up between us with this, a few months before. I was trying to talk to him about it coz I was worrying, wanting to know how it was going to work, he was telling me I was worrying too much but wouldn't enter a conversation about it or give reassurance. He's been at uni for a week and a half now, which has gone quite quick but don't quite know what I did before him been bored! :-/ He quite happily jumped in his car and I was the one crying partly coz dunno when I'm next seeing him. I know he's adjusting (and I am too) to but would be nice to hear from him when he's not drunk...tried to talk to him on skype and he was like 'Lills! I loveeeee yoooouuu babyblurbluuuuurrrr *muttered some other stuff, and then feel asleep* zzzz' :-| .. ugh, will try again *rolls eyes*. Yeah I have been doing som reading back, and can see a difference, not just in sorting parents out but I think I would of ended up going to uni and doing a course, probably studying English, which is I really what I didn't want to do with not much of idea of what kind of job o wanted to do after and I wouldn't of started biz :-).

Hey, what were you doing up past 2am OR ANY A.M., young lady??? [glarey, slitty eyeballs and bared bottom teeth] Do you want your still developing super-brain to turn its final programme flourishes to mush and you back to where you'll be as mediocre as muck during this final lap, izzzz THA' WHATCHOO WANT? (CUZ THASS WHADDLE APPEN!) Seriously - you do realise your brain only grows and re-calibrates/self-enhances at night during sleep, right? You're a biological computer (except real puters are as powerful as only one grain of sand in the Sahara versus *all* the grains *and then some* representing the human version). I mean, what did you think the concept of computers was instinctually based on - carrots and cow-pats? :-p I'll let you off just this once... Next time it'll be a FIVE-PAGE lecture (you haff been varned). *********** Your dad (and mum) is clearly highly grateful to your auntie, as well as likes her anyway. Unsurprisingly. ***** I've been humming Doe Ray Me non-stop, lately! Thass your fault thadiz. :-p If I start running and singing down the nearest grassy hill, wearing a pinafore, I shall be contacting my solicitor, Reverend Mother. ***** So what you mean IS... Leechface is doing what she says on the tin and trying to call your mum every single day, yes? And Auntie's illness and being a full-time guest is preventing it. Is that Fate or is that your dad being exceedingly under-the-table clever? (Both, probably.) Let's rename her Velcro. Or Locktite. Or URGH, GERROFF! (Ug for short). Or Chewing-Gum? And how's about a logo and a jingle to go with it? ***** Re your cousins: "But still", indeed! Selfish little beeps (rhymes-with-bricks). "All good with the parents btw, nothing to report with them." Are you after me posting the Silent Monks vid again, is that what you're after? ;-D Well, tough - I'm not that predictable: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VusmTT7Ib8o It's equally as pertinent, anyway. And - you see? If you'd paid ATTENTION at nursery when Itsby Bitsy got sung, you'd never have posted 'help, me bleedin' idiot parents are divorcin!' in the first place! ;-p What a coinkydinky: parents settle down, BLISTER settles down! (She's the emotionally super-sensitive one - warning-warning, always handle with care!) WHO is picking on her? The bitchy girls? Why - because she dared reject them rather than become their No. 1 fan (how very dare she, hhHHH!)? RSvP. ***** I've heard of fidget-spinners. What are they, pray tell, Ms Google? (It's 4.14, can't be a*sed.) ***** Oh, he's not another one going to bloody "Newcassle", is he? There's a rumour going around that it's got the best student social calendar (...HangoverfromHellday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Pukeday, Barfday, Ralfday...). Probably, all his friends "and all the cool lads" are going there. I pity the girls. (Oh - GONE there. Course - forgot the date.) He did *not* drive off happily, he gave an award-winning performance of a "not big-girl-blousie cuz I'm a man now"! as he drove off, *aided* by the excitement of this Great Adventure. Diff/all the diff. (Charicature Man, da-da-da-daddle-ah-daaah!-yawn) Give him time... "ugh, will try again *rolls eyes*." No, you won't. You'll act like the dignified, self-respecting member of the royal lineage THAT YOU ARE, whom is not amuuuused and doth not ever (air!) chase after young suitors (yawn....so many men, so little time) because there is no need when young suitors are queuing up for miles, HRH Rapunzel-who-ought-know-her-wortheth but hasn't been noticingeth all the looks while her eyes have been constantly on Master Tom's thus the invisible, Green ("free") light above her head has been reading Very Red ("engaged"). Yet. :-p Young men like *Challenge* and The Chase. He's getting drunk on Novelty Factor, having only just arrived - this to see, that to see, dart here, now there, now back again!...EVERYTHING novel. That only explains it, not excuses it, granted. But - 'start as you mean to go on' - if he constantly knows you'll play Clock-Watcher and Contact Initiator as well as constantly what *you're* up to ("nothing much, [bored, missing you]") he'll feel freed of Guarding M'Girlfriend duty and *will* live it up while forgetting you temporarily (cos you'll do the remembering FOR him - see how that works?). You made a call. His turn now. (Particularly as he 'wasted' it.) And the next. Then you. Then him, then him. 70-30, overall, roughly. Because, in addition to Hunter-Chaser being his role, now that you're artificially re-entering Honeymoon, he was the one chose to introduce the phone into your relationship. So HE can carry it, with merely just enough encouragement and help from you. Capiche? So the best way to get a bf to ring is by you not ringing - particularly if that represents a pattern-breakage. He won't feel much like partying if he's starting to notice then wonder then worry then whittle why *you* haven't called *him, either*. "Hhh! Who's she with, what's she doing, is some bloke moving in my bird?!..." You'll adapt and fill in the temporary gap soon enough. You just don't have his kind of novelty dust with which to distract yourself from your pain of separation. Yet. ***** Yup. :-) How's the biz doing anyway? Now that the older kids are back at school, are you taking pre-schoolers? PS: When I said 'bottom teeth', that's without a hyphen, just wanna make that clear. My bottom in fact has FANGS. And here they are: If you needlessly add tiredness to yearning, you're going to end up MISERABLE which, even if you try to hide it, will get communicated subliminally via your whole voice (tone, rate and pattern of speech, etc.) and present as a huge, deflationary contrast to the novelty fun-fun-fun he's currently, initially gorging on and render you coming over as a downer. IZ THA' WOT YOU WAN'? (CUZ...) When he next rings, you need to sound chirpy and like you're busy-busy-busy and enjoying yourself, it's far more important, even, than what you reply with when he says 'Whatcha been up to then?'. Wait for HIM to initiate the 'I miss yous', whereupon you mirror/reciprocate. But remember, this is your chance to enjoy the single life, every term time. Best of both worlds - legitimate version! That makes you very privileged. :-)

Zzzzzzzzzz.......... (Thought *I* was bad, lol.)

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(LOL - oy, wotchit, you.) Well, then, IT'S JOKE-AROUND TIME! Let's mess up Lily's nice, neat thread. :-D A contractor told me this and (goddamnit!) I couldn't help meself, laughed like a drain: "A bird shat on my car bonnet last night!" (Oh?, I said in all seriousness) "Yeah. Ain't takin' HER out again!" :-D (Shoot me, shoot me now...) Roger! Over...

Noooo not my neat thread !!! :-p Ah I was watching films with aunty that night :-). She's not been herself recently :-( very tearful, and not her normal self, she says it's because she's not coping with symptoms that's she's getting but I also think it's to do still no visit from either cousins, not even a phone call. well the older cousin sent his heavily pregnant wife, who is really nice but she obviously wanted them all together. Not seen much of bf I think she's pushed him away a bit :-/. Yep, think it's a bit of both leach face is slowly stopping the phone calls now. I think my dad was being secretly clever, and I think he does really appreciate what's aunty has done, coz he's looking after her really well and going with her to any hospital appointments. No more sneaky ops for her! think he's also close to giving cousins a kick up the a*se, and make then realise what aunty is going through, that will be fun :-) Yep it's the bitchy girls who are picking on sis, apparently they keep calling her boys names that begin with the first letter of her name and making stupid comments like telling sis to get her hair cut like a boy. Sis has actually been quite proactive and joined a drama club and says shes completely ignoring them . Fidget spinners are for people with ADHD (don't think tom is quite that bad) it's a thing that you spin between you fingers and can do tricks with. They became a bit of a craze but got banned in most schools coz they're too distracting. Tom goes to Durham uni so close to Newcastle! Rethought about what I wrote about calling him again and I didn't called bk, and what you said made sense! instead I waited...and waited ...and waited, until eventually (can't remember how many days later it was) he called, sounding hung over but I guess that's better then having him drunk then falling asleep! Was a little p*ssed off but I think I hid it. Anyways he's surprised me by coming back for my birthday so he's back in the good books :-). It is still going well, still doing some lessons after college but not everyday now. Also gave in and said yes to some baby sitting at weekends to one mum coz it's loadza money and her kids are very well behaved. website is starting to be talked about if got mentioned to toms brothers bf who it an IT expert and he's very willing to meet and help hen time is right :-)

It is very neat, isn't it? :-) Nah, wouldn't do that, was only teasing, I "hhhhhhhhhhhATE!" messy threads. Hate messy anything, actually...t'is a sign to self of a however much disorganised/over-run or disordered mind, doncha know. Plus Scopesie wasn't playing ball, anyway, look ("boooo...hiiiiss" lol). Uh-oh. WHAT symptoms? Your parents' troubles might have served as a catalyst to Auntie's own baggage starting to spill out. Like I think I mentioned up there, she might have been sharpening her teeth on your parents' (the likely-to-forgive ones) situation, ready for this -what you're now seeing- inevitable showdown and stand-off with her taking-liberties sons. Question is, has she tried to contact *them* prior to now sitting back, waiting for them to do so? Or would her contacting them somehow represent an insult to justice? How many months has it been with 'new' boyfriend? Enough that he might have started reminding her of whatever problematic element(s) from her past as had her self-sequestering for so long - do you think? Going with her to hospital appointments? Isn't that mum's privilege and prerogative? I agree with the (ahem) calm stepping in as a male, disciplinary role model, though, since they're devoid. Maybe advise Auntie that if she's tried everything already, long before now, to just sit and grit her teeth because if her sons are (which they sounded) narcissistic (note 'ic', not Narcissistic Personality Disordered, first is normal self-interest magnified, particularly at their stage of delayed emotional development, but still within normal range) then no amount of words or lectures will work to convince them to play ball like normal decent people, only being SHOWN (actions-actions-actions!). Am in awe of how well *and* how correctly your sister's handling it all. Seriously. Her dignity and self-control are amazing for her age! I presume she's confiding and talking over how she feels about it all to you as well, yes? Oh, those things! We 'ran with scissors' back in my day so our craze was Clackers. Which were quite quickly banned. And then conkers followed the same fate. If you google you'll see why. "can't remember how many days later it was" Bet it was 2 (including the one you'd already waited). Am I right? " Anyways he's surprised me by coming back for my birthday so he's back in the good books" There you go. :-) Try to remember how many days, it'll come in handy. HAPPY BUFFDAY!, by the way. Glad to hear the biz ebbs and flows with your own ebb and flow, that is mighty handy. And, like I say, once you leave further ed., it's there to take to full-time if you want and need to, ta-daa! You are now officially a young Entrepreneur. :-) See how easy it actually is? Have you done the Doe Ray Me logo and added it to the website yet? Or is that where Tom's bro comes in?

Just noticed It’s been over a year since first posted. Don’t like anything messy either, it hurts my brain! Symptoms with aunty are tiredness, dizziness, low blood pressure and palpitations, been going on for weeks and she’s not really strong enough to be out of bed for long so she’s bored and she’s frustrated coz she’s normally very independent. Doctors are not too sure if the op she had, has affected her Parkinson’s or if it’s something else ...its complicated, which is why my dad is going with her to hospital appointments, my mum hates hospitals :-/. Aunty had been trying to contact cousins but the only person who was responding was older cousins wife. My dad had asked to meet up with cousins, so he could explain to them exactly what was going on with aunty, both agreed to older cousin did but younger cousin didn’t bother turning up, not like he had to travel far coz my dad drove to see them! Aunty is now agreeing to more help and is thinking about moving closer to us :-) (this was her idea). Ugh I knew there was narcissistic traits with them, mainly younger cousin! She was With bf at the beginning of the year, although could of been longer she kept it quiet for a while, but yeah I think long enough for him to remind her of her past. Still haven’t seen him for a good few weeks, not sure what’s going on there :-/. leech face is slowly finding a way back in, my Mum has gone out with her a couple of times at least she’s not coming round so I don’t have to see her. Yeah quite proud of Sis :-D (have told her that too) and clearly she takes after moi! No, at her age I don’t think I would of thought to do what she has done, I would of just worried about it . she seems to be coping well school but theses girl don’t seem to want to leave her alone yet and its all coming out at home. she does telll me or my mum about what theses girls are saying/calling her and how pathetic they are being. I do keep telling her she is doing the right thing and to keep doing what’s she’s doing. I think I waited three days for tom to call me back, it felt a lot longer but he’s got better. I’ve been to see him now too, coz it was half term, so that’s twice in one month which isn’t too bad, it’s just the leaving bit I hate. There is a girl at his uni who seemed to be permanently by his side and didn’t seem to want to bugger off at certain times when she should of done. Seriously, she knocked on the door at 8.30 one morning when I was there and asked if he wanted to go to the gym?! Tom had mentioned her a couple of times on the phone, I assumed she was a boy coz her name could be for a girl or boy. I trust him, mainly coz he keeps reassuring there is no interest on his behalf (without me questioning him) they are friends but she’s too interested :-|. Just had to get that bit off my chest! Yeah it is easy and I thought it would be hard to start up and run a biz. Have got sis to design some logos and will then see if toms bro can copy it on website, once it’s up and running but do it think that will be for a while yet.

Aim to post tomorrow or Sun latest, bear with a bit longer...

"Just noticed It’s been over a year since first posted." Yup! :-) Was waiting to see if you noticed. You know what that means, don't you?... "HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU SQUASHED TOMATOES AND STEW BREAD & BUTTER IN THE GUTTER AND IT LOOKS JUST LIKE LENA!" [poetic license] ******* Hurts my brain, too. Well, annoys it. Got enough going on in there without the distraction of chaos going on on the outside. ******* Hypotension, eh? Is Auntie having a delayed reaction to all the recent stress, now that it's safe to, do you think (intuitively, I mean)? Agree about younger cuz, but it may be that he doesn't understand what influences got in the way of his relationship with his mum and is putting all the blame onto her because it's easier (and less risky) and because she's the only one accessible? Time and greater life experience will educate him, always does. Meanwhile, she'll just have to try to grin and bear it and make that allowance in the belief that the relationship won't stay like that, that it's just an interruption, not a permanent state of affairs. But, yes, that failure to turn up despite the gravity of situation at hand does represent a mighty big dollop of built-up (valid or not) resentment on his part. Frankly, were he not her flesh and blood that would be a Dealbreaker. "She was With bf at the beginning of the year, although could of been longer she kept it quiet for a while, but yeah I think long enough for him to remind her of her past. Still haven’t seen him for a good few weeks, not sure what’s going on there :-/." Oh. There it is, that's why. What is it they say? "The only thing that doesn't decompose when you bury it is pain". Your mum and dad's situation agitated all the crud and question-marks back up to the surface. Well, them and her new boyfriend. Oh, and yes you do know what's going on: she's not seeing him. Hence neither are you. Whether that's because he's a negative element per se or just an inadvertent, innocent agitator - that's the part we don't know (yet). But I would have thought that were the latter the case, it wouldn't be rocket science to then pose as a comforter/antidote, whereby still seeing him overall paid off and did more good than harm, wouldn't you? "leech face is slowly finding a way back in, my Mum has gone out with her a couple of times at least she’s not coming round so I don’t have to see her." QUE? SERIOUSLY? Why on earth would she still be fraternising with the very woman who was busting a gut to get her single? Don't get it. Unless.... Is she using her as a study tool? Why haven't you asked her? Or have you? ****** It's great that lil blister's handling it like an adult pro and that she's got you to morally support and encourage her, but...you're not at school with her when it's actually happening so - what's the school doing about the fact she's being bullied (or should I say attempted-bullied) (no, actually, if you're even having to fend it off it's still Abuse)? What has your mum said about it and what she, if anything, intends to do about it? Or is sis insisting [scuse pun] she be allowed to handle it by herself? ******* Only 3 days. GOOD. Correct reactivity on his part, that's what I thought. And yes, ref the wrench, I know. Still, it does make you stronger while waiting to get used to it. "There is a girl at his uni who seemed to be permanently by his side and didn’t seem to want to bugger off at certain times when she should of done. Seriously, she knocked on the door at 8.30 one morning when I was there and asked if he wanted to go to the gym?! Tom had mentioned her a couple of times on the phone, I assumed she was a boy coz her name could be for a girl or boy. I trust him, mainly coz he keeps reassuring there is no interest on his behalf (without me questioning him) they are friends but she’s too interested Speechless. Just had to get that bit off my chest!" She can be as interested as she likes but it takes his 50% for anything to come of it. However, the way she's behaving is indicative of her character. So that's over before it's started. Basically, she's subtly CHASING him. Picture gazelle walking up to lion on a plate. YAAAAWN. So LET her put him off her. I've got his number, though. Think about it, how hard is it to politely say GO AWAY. It's not. So what Tom's doing - by 'showing' her to you - is demonstrating his own insecurity and worry about whether you might wander off or replace him. By introducing the element of jealousy or competition, your love will have that extra augmenter attached and add to its weight. See what I'm saying? Basically, if you were, secretly, going off him or the effort involved in seeing him, YOU WON'T NOW. "Treat her (slightly) mean to keep her keen" is the saying. Standard male insecurity insurance tactic, he does not fancy her or anything like that, she's just useful right now to keep you from going off him or daring to dump him. Worry not. Plus, if there was anything in it from his side, in regards to genuine interest, I mean, then he would have hidden her, not slightly, subtly flaunted her. See the diff? Case closed. She's just his Lynx-on-legs for your benefit. ******** Wish I could see the final logo, but you'll just have to describe it to me (no posting any web link on here, warning-warning). ******** PS: Why does your mam hate hospitals?

December next year Soulmate?

Ah, well. It's entirely up to Lils, isn't it. Wondered where you'd got to. Any juicy gossip? Talking of 'juicy' (but not in a good way), have you read that new thread about that poor woman who's already 'officially' depressed, enough to be on 20mg instead of the usual 10 of Citalopram, but being basically beaten up on what sounds like a daily basis by her so-called husband and so-called father of her children? Bullying your own wife when she's already in trouble. I was disgusted....takes a lot to disgust and shock me. Think it showed [sarcasm alert]. Go take a ganders. And then you can be disgusted too! (ha-ha...black humour, couldn't help it)

If I’ve done a year I reckon I can do two :-p I read that new thread too, ugh Aunty is slowly getting back to her normal self, which is nice to see but I think she is pretty stressed out and everything is catching up with her. Was out with her yesterday and we had to stop and sit in the car for a bit coz she was feeling panicky but she won’t admit she’s getting panick attacks which I think she is getting. she says she’s not going to approach sons until there is some sort of effort from them and until she has some energy, good luck to them when she does find her fiesty self again! Think older cousins wife is also quite capable of putting them both in their place. She’s not seeing bf anymore, I think he annoyed her but also in the past when she does get ill or has to have an op, if she’s seeing someone she gets rid of them because she says she doesn’t want anyone to have to look after her (other then family). I know, I’m annoyed with my mum about leech face, there’s a liiiiiittle bit of tension between us at the moment and aunty Been giving her a bit of a hard time about it too. it’s because my mum feels sorry for her because she doesn’t have a lot of friends or family (can’t think why!). Next she’ll be inviting her round for Xmas. She also annoyed me coz holly dropped round a bday card (with a very long and boring letter inside, where she basically made herself out to be the victim, if she wants a reply she ain’t getting one!) round for me a couple of weeks ago, I wasn’t in and my invited her in and they had a ‘nice chat’ and talked about why holly and I are not friends anymore and since my mum has been going on at me to make contact with her but won’t really listen as to my reasons why. I did try a bit with holly a while coz we go to the same college, kept bumping into each other, she’s not she’s not changed one bit and there is still this weird jealousy with me and tom, all she was interested in was what uni he’s gone to and how was it going to work? so I didn’t bother after that! Don’t really understand why my mum ignores people’s bad behaviour. Well at first sis didn’t my mum to interfere with theses girls, think she thought she could handle them but she’s now coming home upset nearly every day now, so my Mum is doing something about it which is talks with head of year and headteacher. Will see what the outcome of that is. Ah ok, that makes sense with tom, yeah he would he hiding her, but I don think he’s really like that, he’s too open and honest. It was the long drive home, where I spent the whole five hours questioning things and nothing was distracting me. I thinks he’s found someone who is just as hyperactive as he is, girl version. Sis has done five different logo designs :-/ told her to just do two different ones, think she’s done more, so I pay her more (not silly). Will discribe my fave one when she’s finshed them. My mum hates hospital coz I think it go’s back to when my grandparents were ill (both died) and she had quite a traumatic time with them both ended up in ICU and she’s now come quite fearful of hospitals :-/.

LILS I'm gonna have agree with your mum about hospitals. I don't exactly have any fond memories there either. Glad to hear aunty is getting back to her normal self. Soulmate about the only juicy gossip I have is I'm buying a hill. Currently in escrow will close on December 8th lots and lots of signatures whew!

"If I’ve done a year I reckon I can do two :-p" You make it sound like Doing Life at a maximum security institution, LOL - 'It's alright...I'm tough...I'll make it..'. ******* Yeah. 'Ugh'. That's about the size of it, isn't it. ******* Since he's a doctor, is your dad recommending any traditional or Alternative medical measures to your auntie? And could she be experiencing Adrenal Exhaustion from all the stress, both of these recent bouts and anything they brought up to the surface from her past? Also, do you suppose that the truth is more that, whenever Auntie realises she's entering a period ill health, she rids herself of any romantic partner she can tell is going to be a drain on her, rather than an assistance and source of support? ...And reverts to putting herself in the care of those whom she *does* trust? ******* Hmm... Your mum... Don't ask me why but I don't buy that 'feel sorry for her' line. I suspect it's a cover for 'I want to study her (now that I've got her at a safe distance)'. Do you know what I'm sensing and saying? Holly: victim of WHAT? (You sound angry, still, btw.) And what are your reasons? Did something definite happen or was it more a case 'one more drip and the negative bucket will overflow'? By what you've said she said, she certainly does sound like she's intent on putting a downer on yours and Tom's situations - I agree. Your mum's an intrinsically good person who likes to see the good in people and believe they're all just like her, and would rather not entertain the fact that there are actually monsters out there. So it's like she's saying, 'Please don't file them as Monster, not yet, maybe all it'll take is one more chance to prove they're just this or just that or-or-or? Anything but a Monster (to any degree).' Plus, Holly probably made like Perry: Hello Mrs Patterson, how you, Mrs Patterson, Fank-You Mrs Patterson [halo]... Which won't have helped. Nag-nag-nag, eh? "Don’t really understand why my mum ignores people’s bad behaviour." Why don't you try ignoring hers? ;-) OR...you could be a bit cheeky and quip: "Eyes, ears, mouth... Husband." After all, it's true isn't it? So what's she even doing, trying to involve herself in your private relationships? (Answer: trying to make up for lost time. Guard your cheek or you might find a tissue moving around on it. Covered in spit. LOL.) Nah. Go easy on her, don't RIP that invisible umbilicus off her or it'll be too painful. Also, let's not forget that she had to forego a lot of that last-chance mothering due to her career and then dad. Because you can bet your a*se that bust-up was no 'start of something'. More like something coming to a head. Maybe ask her to show you how to cook some of her 'famous' recipes or something so that you can replicate them once you get your own place? That way she'll be getting her catch-up fill in a way you *do* like and appreciate, but not in the ways you don't. And you get to forevermore eat your favourite family dishes. Plan? PS: Keep us posted re lil sis (- see what I did there :-D). "Ah ok, that makes sense with tom, yeah he would he hiding her, but I don think he’s really like that, he’s too open and honest." Oh, yeah, he wouldn't cheat. But he's like dad, isn't he. ...No harm in letting a GIRL try to make you sit up and show your cards, eh. Just...if she wants to do that, you know,... *I* can't stop her, *I* don't control her and I *certainly* don't encourage her, so...you know - it's up to *her* what she does or doesn't or if she gets funny ideas, isn't it? [Etc.] But, you know...if she's *bothering* you or something?, orrrr... making you feel *threatened*, a bit, you know?...understandable?...I don't mind telling her to back off a bit? ...Because, you know, thinking aboud id...you did seem a bit....mmmm... for want of a better word - *fixated* in the car going home, so...? ;-) Yes. I imagine he found that journey *highly* reassuring. Probably also didn't mind answering all those questions *at all*, I imagine? ;-) Never mind, he knows now. On both counts (lol). (You 'nana.) Still, if all he was after was confirmation/reassurance then that's as far as the subtle little covert mission should go, and no harm done. Just don't give him *too* much, i.e. don't take the bait the next time (if there's a next time, which I doubt) (now). PS: He drove you 5 whole hours home? And then 5 whole hours back again? Cor, he's a bit keen, isn't he? ;-D SEE?! New mantra: If I spend time in Tom's company and Tom's doing something that makes me feel suspicious or iffy or insecure or anything it's because Tom's feeling suspicious or iffy or insecure or anything. "My mum hates hospital coz I think it go’s back to when my grandparents were ill (both died) and she had quite a traumatic time with them both ended up in ICU and she’s now come quite fearful of hospitals :-/." Did she get counselling for that trauma?

My dads signed aunty up as a temp patient at his surgery so he can keep an eye on her, she sees one of the other partners, who have changed her meds, which seems to be working :-). She came out with me and my mum the other night, so getting aunty back, slowly. Also we went into an estate agent coz she’s serious about moving closer. Looked up Adrenal exhaustion with her, and she agrees she’s experiencing this. I feel quite relieved, (mainly for aunty) older cousin is coming to visit this weekend (thanks to his wife), aunty is quite excited, Im hoping she’ll give him a hard time too, and my dad is on younger cousins case trying to sort him out keep him updated. Ah yeah, that sounds more like it with aunty and past partners, I think she does want to be round more family and people she trusts and sneaking into hospital for an operation without telling anyone is quite a good way to get my parents attention (and mine). When you say my mum is poss using leech face as a study tool, what does that mean? That she’s analysing her in some way? Trying to work her out for herself. Then she will finally realise what she’s actually been up to? Holly- yeah, I am still angry, a bit that she came round and acted all sweet and innorcent with my Mum coz she knew my mum would fool for her little act and then give me a hard time about it. The letter really topped it off (7 A4 pages long front and back!). Letter starts off with when she was dating a guy at the beginning of our last year at school (this is where she felt things went wrong between us), she really loved him but he was making it really obvious he wasn’t interested anymore and was making loads of excuses not to see her after school and at weekends. Meg’s and I tried to tell her but she got defensive each time, didn’t want to accept it was over. Also was around the same time tom and I got together so that sparked the jealousy. tom in the end, told ex bf (they were friends) he was being unfair and he should tell Holly if he wasn’t interestsd anymore and not string her along...and so ex bf dumped her a day or two after. Holly knows tom talked to ex bf and she partly blames him for their break up and that he shouldn’t of said anything - that’s her beef with him. she then wrote about how she’s never really got over this guy and she was really upset - I wasn’t there for her. Then apparentlyI changed - ditched her a few times and had no time for her - not true coz that’s when we started the girls night out to the pub every other Friday coz she was getting really jealous and making me feel guilty for seeing tom and we also had that (quiet) argument in a cafe :-/ - as you do - she was the one who told me to F off?! Remember? she then ended up making new friends who she ended up having nothing in common with, so she had a very lonely summer where she became quite depressed. she was pleased we ended up at the same college and hoped we could be friends again but then I went weird on her doesn’t understand why. Then she went on how about she really misses me and Meg's hope that one day we can try again. The End. What really annoyed me is that not once in the letter did she acknowledge that my mum and Dad had split up, she’s always claimed how much she loves them and how they are like her second parents OR what she might of done wrong. She made a lot of assumptions/demands and let herself get jealous. I have actually drafted a reply, not going to give it to her coz its an angry reply, I would have to reword a lot of it and remove a few swear words :-/ partly did it so I could stop thinking about it. I did ask my mum to stop nagging me about it and she has but this after she refused to read the letter from Holly coz she thought it was silly and that I should just forget about it, which felt unfair co she made time to listen to Holly but not me. I’ve just left it now and we did go out to the cinema the other night. Hmmm cooking ...not my strong point! Good idea though coz I need to learn - tom gave up on teaching me a long time ago :-(, after I kept burning quite a few things...I think my mum will be more patient. I did remind myself when I was having a moment that tom wouldn’t of driven a total of ten hours if there was something going on with him and this girl. Yeah agree he is like my dad in that respect, and I get that he’s insecure coz he said he was anxious about going to uni and being far away in the first place. Him turning up on my birthday was my favourite present (obvs) :-D . he called my mobile at 7 (left at 2?!!) in the morning and then he had to convince me that he was standing outside the house coz he didn’t want to ring the door bell and wake everyone up. I didn’t believe him /couldn’t be arsed to get out of bed and look out he window but then the dog started barking madly, dog loves tom (...and his socks... don't ask...strange dog) which convinced me enough to get out of bed and he was there :-). No, I don’t think my mum has had any counselling when grandparents died and both went within a year of each other and not like really old both just had heart problems, had heart attacks and ended up in ICU . So she had to do it twice and aunty in those two years was living even further away and divorcing husband who had left, so she wasn’t exactly with it. I will wait my long lecture on how my brain is going to explode for staying past midnight ...again :-) bye

"My dads signed aunty up as a temp patient at his surgery so he can keep an eye on her"..."and my dad is on younger cousins case trying to sort him out keep him updated" Oh, that's nice. :-) That's the sort of nice that needs a soundtrack. In fact, that's John-Boy Walton nice, I'd go as far as to say. Me, I'm wondering whether the tipping-point stressor indeed was just her son(s) or whether she suddenly realised boyfriend was a bad'un. That would explain the timing of her mentioning her seriousness about moving closer by. And I must admit - don't know about you, but... that bit you mentioned about him touching her arm as if to rein her in, it did get my attention....it was so damn patronising it was too hard to miss *and smacked so much of [wait for it] OWNERSHIP AND ENTITLEMENT* that, had it been me, I'd have said, 'I'm touched at your nurturing concern (or rather, my arm is), but - where on your C.V. does it say Circus Trainer where on mine does it say Seal?'. Or Catherine Tate's Nanna: Uh-HEUGH!...whadda fa*kin liberty! (...unless we're talking famous 80s singer, Seal... I can do a few bars of Crazy, if anyone likes, LOL/groan. If not, it's Viola Wills - "Goddalonng withoutcha...befooore I metcha-gonna geddalong withoutcha now". (I think those lyrics are far more powerful than I Will Survive because they mention the all-important reminder that you DID get along without him/her before you met him/her, which disempowers grief's intensity a little. Or, if you're with them, *not* to let them take over your fundamental rights of self-ownership and -control like that. But, anyway, I digress...) "That she’s analysing her in some way? Trying to work her out for herself. Then she will finally realise what she’s actually been up to?" Yup, you got it. Your mum's a studious, curious type, isn't she. That or Lena is a case of a "re-visit" (someone from the past)? But there is still the office relations aspect, too, meaning it would be about management and weaning-off. Time will tell. But if it's true she needs "a project" then your only hope, you three (or 4 if you include dad), is to keep her mothering and nurturing instincts busy-busy-busy, too busy for Big Baby Lena. That and her involving herself in your dispute with Holly is why I suggested asking her to show you how to cook her recipes (take the fork *away* from naughty toddler with grabbie hands that are into everything, by simultaneously introducing rattle or other, more fascinating object, LOL). Seven A4 pages? Woah. "Holly knows tom talked to ex bf and she partly blames him for their break up and that he shouldn’t of said anything - that’s her beef with him." That's just silly. If her ex had told Tom to lay off you, Tom would probably have said something ending with Off, which is because he *is* properly into you. But, actually, I do get where Holly's coming from: it should have been *her* prerogative over when she felt ready to accept that truth. But I also can see that Tom was trying to help because it's not nice to see a friend being emotionally tortured. There again, if it was Tom's friend, he did have the right to give his mate his feedback. Etc. I think she's trying to engineer a situation where you two have to approach her and spend time with her, out of this 'sense of obligation', the overall message being, I'm lonely and it's party you two's fault. So it's just a cry of loneliness, then, isn't it, but where at first she can't say what she needs humbly (avoiding sounding vulnerable and needy). But then does (well, bravo for that, at least, yes?). However, I agree that if she didn't make important reference (now allowance at the time, look!) to what you and your whole family had been going through, that is definitely a case of Me-Me-Me. So I appreciate your feelings on the matter. So what you're saying is, you no longer want to be buds but haven't managed to get that across using subtlety? I think if you really meant it or were *ready* to mean it, you'd not feel saying so, even in a letter, was such a struggle. Fair point? Maybe mum *didn't* make time to listen to Holly, maybe Holly forced herself on her? And/or maybe your mum feels guilty at the thought of her and your dad having 'ruined' one of your friendships so is trying to minimise the strength and validity of the bases for your fall-out and "you're the stronger one", hence you should be the one to proffer the Olive branch and all that?...meaning, whatever it takes to get it off her conscience and who cares who does it, just do it?...because it's better than there being this conflict in the air? Not that I condone that passing of the buck when Holly's being very self-obsessed as well as did tell you to eff off, but - just to help you see all sides towards making up your mind what you want to do...whether you do want to respond in kind and therein explain your side? Draft it here if you like? Or run the final draft past us? I'll "be Holly". (And Scopes can help if he's not actually fallen down a manhole?) If you acknowledge and sympathise with her points wherever warranted but lay out yours, too, as explanation or by way of apology THAT SHE WAS FEELING BAD and that you *couldn't*, rather than wouldn't, help with that, and she *still* doesn't concede over the fact that you were going through a life crisis that had the potential to be huge (meaning, all you wanted was what anyone in that situation wants, which is, your grown-up teddy bear - Tom), and didn't expect anyone to hold that overloaded-ness against you at a later date but instead make allowances for you, then...you'll know she's all Me-Me-Me-Sod-You rather than just not very plugged-in (or not plug-in-able). So a letter's a great idea...makes for a superb, giant litmus test. Why *did* you go weird on her, btw? **** Re Tom: good, I'm glad that giant, indisputable action didn't escape you. Left at 2am as well? Crikey, someone book the vicar! (joke) (or is it?) **** Back to mum (return noted ;-)). Do you suppose she's thinking *she* might have an early heart-attack? Christ - Auntie was having to deal with that AND her marriage breaking down then ending? Good grief! Who carried them, then - dad? Maybe both sisters should go together, jointly? I think they should, you know. They're both in it together, anyway, right? **** Nah, can't be a*sed, LOL. Won't explode, anyway ("god, you're AALWAAYS SO OVER-DRAMATIC!" :-D). You just won't be as special as you would have been, otherwise. Plus you'll get zits. :-p Never mind - Tom can squeeze them ("Mmm, sexy..."). (He probably would, 'n all, ROFL!!)

My dad seems to be very happy at the moment, a lot less grumpy and he is doing more thoughtful things towards everyone, mainly my mum. Aunty gave cousin such an earful when she saw him :-D, hehe. At first she was pleased to see him but it was kinda like the more they spoke, the more angry she got with him, I think only then she relised just how p*ssed off she was with both cousins. Didn’t help that he was giving her really crap excuses as to why he didn’t come to visit her in hospital and then when he said he and younger cousin were not happy that she was considering moving closer to us. I kinda felt auntys ex bf was quite fake and didn’t mean half he stuff he said and did. They also had completely different personalities he was quite quiet and reserved and aunty isn’t ! The arm touching thing I thought at first was him nice but the more I thought about the more it didnt feel right. She doesn’t think she will but hopefully she’ll meet someone new! Yeah my mum is the studious type and I’m wondering how long she has actually been studying leech face for. We have done some baking over the weekend :-) i helped her bake sis’s birthday cake, and next is cooking. Think she needed it coz she was like ‘my youngest baby is now a teenager’. She didn’t cope very well with sis getting older :-/. Going to keep trying but I’m struggling with this letter to Holly. ( my angry version isn’t very good, I reread it) I’m normally quite good at writing and getting my point across but it’s not coming easy coz she’s involved tom and Megan in the letter and they are both not around. I don’t know if I want to be friends again, coz We have out grown each other and don’t have a lot in common anymore...it’s just putting that in writing to her. I do sort of see her point of view with tom and the ex bf, but i remember at the time it was so bl**dy obvious that ex didn’t like her, it was hard to watch and he let it go on and on for weeks. Knowing Tom he probably said it in a very matter fact way, don’t think there was a deep and meaningful conversation. Don’t think I’m going to bring it up with him. I don’t think this situation was the start of our friend breaking down, I think it was the start of her jealousy and how she’s. let it continued for over a year. I went weird on her coz she questioned about tom being at uni and I said nicely I didn’t want to talk about it. Was a bit of a hard topic, he had just left so was feeling quite emotional about it and she carried on! Couldn’t really see how we could restart our friendship if there was still jealousy and if she couldn’t do what I asked, more so when it wasn’t really any of her business and she was just asking for information not coz she cared. Oh I didn’t think that my mum could be feeling guilty about her and my dad ruining my friendship with Holly but agree it’s why she wants me to forget about it and just be friends with Holly. Aunty listened to me a little more and said if Holly had the confidence to come round and act all innocent with my Mum (I think she did force herself on my Mum) then she should come back round and we can talk. Aunty offered to mediate ...I don’t think Holly will do this. Ha no vicar yet! Although my mum and toms Mum did meet this weekend for the first time, unplanned, in the supermarket. There was no getting out of not introducing them to each other and OMG they didn’t stop talking and they carried shopping! At least they liked each other. Yeah my Mum does think if she goes into a hospital she gets so anxious that she thinks she gonna keel over and not come back out again. But that’s silly coz both grandparent weren’t the most sociable people, never excerised, both were really overweight coz all they did was eat really unhealthy. I used to like going to visit when I was little coz they had ‘sweetie jars’ and I came home quite hyper. My mum is the complete oppersite and she’s still worries :-/. Yeah aunty had been left by husband by then and she was selling family home with two kids. Think they both needed Counselling. It was left to my dad to carry them both. Think scopes has disappeared down A manhole :-/

Nope I'm here LILS. I'd love to have a sweetie jar as I have quite the sweet tooth :-)

It was my turn down the manhole, Lils. (Scopes and I own a timeshare. ;-)) Everything above, noted, all sounds positive (or getting there)... Have you done the letter to Holly yet? And yes, that's right, I do remember her confidence knocking attempt and, yes, fair enough. Life's too short for putting up with positivity sucking peeps. But I do think you should give her a chance to redeem herself before dumping for-good...which you can only do by enlightening her over how you don't appreciate her lack of support and encouragement LIKE A TRUE FRIEND TENDS TO DO. Aunty offered to mediate, did she? She really wants to be where she's needed and allowed to be involved, doesn't she just! Not that that's a bad thing, just noting. And then her sons wonder why she wants to be closer to you lot..... "duuh?". What's all this about not wanting her to? *They* don't want her but don't want anyone else to have her? Or do they just like having her nearby 'in case they ever'? (Convenience, anyone?) You'd think they'd be happy for her and give her their blessing if, as is apparent, they're too busy getting on with their own lives, wouldn't you. Do you suppose she over-compensated back then for the fact she 'gave them' a crap dad, by over-praising them and giving them too many privileges? Or did her ex-husband undermine her authority and respect-worthiness in their eyes, and it stuck? How do they tend to speak to her and address her, in your opinion? How's her health now? And what's the latest with mum's 'specimen studies'? Has she concluded the woman's barking mad yet? LOL Re the mums meeting dans le supermarche. Unplanned by WHOM? Fate? ;-) What else is new, then? I'll be freer for the next week, btw. Or should be (don't want to jinx myself again). And how're tricks with you, Scopester?

LILS, Soulmate with the holidays coming upon us I'm busy with not just shopping but closing on purchasing a hill. Hopefully all will be said and pretty much done this weekend.

You're buying a hill? BUYING a hill? A HILL? [click-whirr-click-whirr...] Are you embarking on a self-build, set into a hill? Or do you just *really* love toboggan-ing? LOL

I know why my dad has been so happy, he’s got a new job at the same hospital he wanted to work at before the one that’s no where near home. He will be working there for 3 days and hes still going to be in partnership at his surgery. It’s gonna take up all his time, even tho he’s made sure he won’t be working weekends. Apparently he and my mum have discussed this in Counselling a lot but I can’t tell if my Mum is ok with this. I’m not too sure about this either it makes me nervous. Now I don’t know if this is the reason why my mum is hanging on to leech face,coz they still go out together. I don’t think she’d go live with her again coz aunty is here to support her. Aunty seems think at the moment they are in couselling and we gotta trust that this has been discussed properly but she get why I’m anxious. I’m just pleased aunty is here this time...if this becomes an issue. Also the school situation with sis has got a bit worse and my mums had to start talking teachers. So she’s got that going on too. Holly came round in the end, I texted her and asked if she wanted to come round and talk about the letter. I didn’t think she’d want to coz of aunty being there to mediate but she was up for it. Erm, didn’t go too well ...Firstly, Holly and aunty did all the talking coz it was mainly about ex bf and how upset she had been when he dumped her and that it’s taken her nearly a whole year to get over it. Aunty didn’t really buy into this being the reason for us not being friends anymore and asked her what it had to do with our friendship. Holly tried to blame the fact that tom and I had started dating so I wasn’t around and What tom had done... I, before this little meeting had spoken to tom about this, and apparently at the time, Holly had confronted him on what he did and they had resolved it between ....so I pointed this out to her and challenged her on why she brought it up when it was resolved and she just looked at me a bit speechless. I did have my say too, had each point written down, which I think annoyed her coz she kept on glaring at my bit of paper with my notes on! I pointed her jealousy, her pettiness, and how she had not acknowledged about parents separation AT ALL , which was why I wasn’t always able to hang out with her but she always assumed I was with tom. Basically, she couldn’t handle what I was saying (was said nicely) got p*ssed off and told me I was going to be a crap counsellor coz I couldn’t even empathise with her and she could see I wasn’t listening when she was talking about ex bf. I was listening and I did empathise, along with Aunty but I had also read a very long seven page letter about it...thought it was partly for auntys benefit. Aunty tried to suggest we both forgive and forget and go to the pub and get drunk but we both told her ‘ no’ ...she also thinks Holly might need Counselling and then maybe she will then start to see things from my point of view...Fun times! been learning about counsellors chellenaging/confronting their clients in Counselling, had to do role plays too ( ugh) at college. Think my tutor would of been pleased with me coz I found those role plays hard and uncomfortable. Also homework was to write about a time where we had to challenge/confront someone, and how it made us feel before, during and after...thanks Holly, homework done, bish, bash, bosh! (Y) Older cousin only wants aunty near him for child care, she admits this now. Him and wife have got one baby and another on the way, wasn’t planned, explains the very small age gap between two babies. She does want to be there when baby is born but has said lots of day visits will be fine. Younger cousin I don’t think ever really visited her and still hasn’t! Neither of them speak to her nicely, they are always moaning at her and questioning her decisions and have always thrown tantrums. But I think shes let them get away with it because she feels guilty about their dad. Oh my god, now that my mum has met toms mum she wants to invite them round when tom is back from uni at Xmas ugh... Yeah, scopes, what you gonna do with your Hill?

LILS sound your mum has alot on her plate. I have had a bit of a close call with electronically wiring money for closing of the escrow today. Electronic wiring of money fraud was in the front of my mind however it's all good now. What am I going to do with the hill? Not tobogganing that's for sure. I've gone to a website that shows home floor plans, there's one that I have in mind.

Scopes, there were many sweetie jars in the grandparents house, not just one; there was at least one in every room :-/ . so you’re building a house on your Hill? Do you own it now it’s the 8th today (incase you hadn’t noticed :-D) . Why not tobogganing ? Its fun :-p. .............. Argh, aunty says she’s has been trying to defuse arguments between my mum and Dad this afternoon since they came back from Counselling :-|. Not that surprised if I’m honest just really hoping things don’t go t*ts up again. Aunty has gone into protective mode and is not saying how bad it is or what it was about but I think I take take a guess. she says she’s got it under control-ish, ha don’t like the ‘Ish’ bit’. She wants me and sibs out the house if they start arguing again. she’s knows I can handle it she’s more worried about sibs and she’s suggested we make plans with friends. Luckily tom is home this weekend! If all my grandparents were here they’d be sorting out parents too :-|

LILS let's hope mum and dad suppress the arguments during Christmas month. Lets hope for aunties sake leach face doesn't jump back into the picture again. You're lucky I'm not at the grandparents house or I'd be snarfing in every room with my sweet tooth! Dun deal, property signed sealed recorded and closed! Problem: no snow = no tobogganing there could be a serious problem with fire dangerous this year.

I hope they sort it out quickly. It was only yesterday I was thinking we were going to have a really nice Xmas this year and then I came home from college to be told that, really frustrating! Wouldn’t know if they’ve been arguing today, been keeping myself busy and doing lots of Xmas stuff.. All I know is my dad walked out of the Counselling session :-/ Ha ha I can just imagine leech face turning up for ‘moral support’ for my mum and aunty telling her to go away,it wouldn’t be done politely. Doubt she will, she’s scared of aunty :-)

(Cheers Scopesie! :-) Good luck with your self-build, you lucky ugger, what a wonderful opportunity! Don't forget the Media Room, will you!) So (hi, LOL) dad's put spice into his life via a big chunk of variety? Very sensible. Shame he couldn't have thought of that long before now, eh. But then I guess he (subc.) wouldn't have had this platform for agitating those latent personal and marital niggles to the surface where they could be dealt with, would he. I expect he's also 'so happy' because he came close to the marital cliff-edge and lived to tell the happier tale, eh. :-) (It's never the one thing, as a specie we're not that inefficient.) ***** What do you mean, can't tell? Er - ASK HER OUTRIGHT?...you know...with that funny cavernous hole in the middle of your face? ;-p Certainly, any peer of hers would. So act like that's what you are, now (which you are...you're in a serious relationship and share and share running a business with her, which was *your* initiative!). I mean, seriously - what *is* this not daring to ask your own mum direct questions, despite even having a right to info regarding a situation that's you- and whole-family-affecting? Same for why she's having anything still to do with Lena - ask her. And don't cease until you're satisfied. I'm particularly surprised given the fact you managed an even harder version of it that time after she had a fit about that woman's car in your dad's drive. Why the loss of confidence since then? Maybe your mum feels Lena's nice company if kept at a safer arm's length and, yes, doesn't have enough, now, to keep her busy or socially fed? Or - the other, already mentioned possibility since this event is coinciding with the counselling - a Lena type is part of these past problems now coming back to haunt? Can't you and she go out every fortnight for a girlie evening?...discuss the biz and your love-life, etc.? A regular 'Chinese' Night? In summary, Lils, there are two ways 'kids' start to get treated (at appropriate times) like an adult by a parent: [a] the parent behaviourally endows that right and the kid responds befittingly maturely or [b] the kid takes that lead and the parent is the one that responds, often unthinkingly. Once that switch occurs - MAINTAIN IT. Order non-particular with those two because I believe it should start with the kid, same as - the parent is not the one to say, 'Right little Joanna/Johnny - today is the day you're going to cease crawling and try walking!'. Nay. Kid leads / parents chase after to catch-up. Nature's way. Show her you're an adult THUS A FRIEND, NOW - go for it! If you don't, when that remedy is so p*ss-simple, then somehow that nervousness must (subc.) be serving you in some way - ber-bom. It's your growth and development. Up to you where you choose to apply it. Plus she's been in statis and plus the "other (not) woman" incident was a one-off; you can't expect to nurture a new habit in her with a one-off. So do that, is my pushier-person advice - apply it - lead. Yes? *Nobody* around here would say you of all people weren't capable. Different matter if it's her, being a clam all of a sudden. But you know the drill - interrogate harder, LOL. (They *all* crack in the end.) It'll give your tenacity and persuasion muscles a good work-out. As long as you know ("God give me...") where you have a right to push and where you don't, that's the main thing. The point is, you see, you shouldn't *have* to push. [ting!/halo] You can't make Auntie your sidekick, gotta have *your own* skillset. ;-) Or put her on and *I'll* ask her. (LOL although I would, actually....which reminds me of that time when an OP's (git of a) husband came on here and tried to have a go at me ...the fool. ;-)) ***** Oh. Just read that she's got blister's bullies in her in-tray. In that case, wait a bit for the better moment. ***** I think thanks to this latest very clear evidence, I've just 'diagnosed' Holly! Her whole theme is, You didn't rescue me (and you're still not)! Methinks her boyfriend was a Narc. - it TAKES a year - AT LEAST, TRUST ME! - to get over one of those. Because they Trauma Bond and create huge emotional dependence in you - to make it impossible for you *not* to stick around (stay and try to fix hassle versus a year or more of an agonising, emotional nightmare - no contest, I'll stay!). It's psychological enslavement, Stockholm Syndrome. Go google, you'll see. He obviously did a hard-and-fast number on her with deliberate lack of closure as his cherry on the top. And - because his number is Unreasonable/Toxic Thinking - she (think virus) *caught* that bug somewhat! That explains why she's been being illogical and unreasonable, why she's hell-bent on BEHAVIOURALLY HINTING for help in a way that avoids yet more overt vulnerability in showing her belly (with him, any showing it would have got it punched - repeatedly!). In short, she's been, to a degree, Narcissised. She's used to Narcs. Her mother's one (or is an infected victim herself). So she sticks with the type of person she knows already how to function with and deal with, but with a few Rescuers on-hand. But, not knowing or realising what they are, she's been nicking some of their 'skills' as if perfectly normal and okay/usable...which is what you've been seeing. Emotional Blackmail is the name of the above illustration. Her mouth is unreasonable, but, conversely, look at her actions. She went to a hell of a time and effort with that letter. She agreed. She came. She endured....Even though two against one. That's fighting for a relationship, that is. Narcs don't do that; most they'll do is bribe and blackmail from afar, lifting neither leg, just one finger (typety-type, "yawn, must I?"). Because they *always* have someone you can be replaced with at the drop of a hat waiting in the wings - so why bother? You're not worth the effort. She's longish-term lately a crap friend because she's been crapped on for too long. And because she's so wounded, it's "(ow) me-me-me". You cope - with anything and everything...sail through, she doesn't. (That's how *she* perceives you.) You appeared unscathed ergo with ample free head time, you should have been on looking-after-*her* duty. So's not to damage her psyche further (than he already has, I mean), you'll have to communicate to her somehow (letter's best) that she needs more than you or any 'mere' friend right now, that counselling will give her back her power and confidence (her GP will assist with that) - and that to come out of this chrysallis a superwoman, also *needs* a spell totally on her own (it'll hurt at first but cease soon enough if she grits her teeth to let herself adapt to it and realise how enjoyable it actually is to get to really know then like then love yourself) so that she can learn to have fun with and rely on her own company thus never feel alone or lonely or non-confident with/constrained in relationships EVER AGAIN - to enable the strength to GET AWAY from these p**ks (fear of being alone compounds the fear they create in you about being alone...it's part of their own illness, as infects you, remember?) - and that, although you and she are on completely different pages of your respective development process for a while, meaning, temporarily horribly incompatible, she should contact you when she feels strong and confident enough to never again risk ruining her friendships with this Insecure Attachment style (Anxious-Preoccupied) fear and avoidance behaviour. Because the way she's been behaving, although not her fault - she's making her fears COME TRUE, look! Think driving, and not focusing on the scary oncoming cars. One 'follows' ones eyes automatically so - CRASH! However, even eyes-forward, if you look too far up the road, you're not seeing sudden obstacles immediately ahead - CRASH! Ditto for focusing only mainly on the immediate foreground. It's ignoring the oncomings and focusing on the MID ground you want. That way, view dead centre of 'the frame', you see everything in the periphery as well as avoid crashing into your fears. IOW, she's too scared and insecure (product of being freaked/traumatised/battered) to be capable of being a healthy thus pleasurable friend at the mo (long-term 'mo'). Too frightened and insecure, even of you, to remember or be capable of being humble and 100% honest or remember that *you* wouldn't ever punch her stomach like he did (and, presumably, mum did). But she's curable because she's not the disease, she's just caught a bit of it off of the diseased and the other secondarily-affected peeps. Her instinctual actions are healthy, her surface mindset and babble aren't. (Sense?) Bottom Line actions win. So yes, Auntie's right, she literally doesn't have the wherewithal to see yours or anyone else's POV at the mo. (Sorry, I'm long-winded tonight because I'M KNACKERED!...."not enough hours in the day, grumble-grumble"...) Remember: *all* injured animals are me-me-me. But are they permanently in that state or can they recover and *want* to?, is the key question regarding whether you prepare to stick it out, even from the wings as you execute a break, so's not to risk getting affected into infected (via empathy), yourself. Let her know that although she's too infectious for visitors, you're waiting in the corridor just outside if she really, seriously needs you. You're abandoning her, for a while, with Love (via reassurance that you're not rejecting her permanently) and because it's the kindest, most productive thing you could do at this juncture. If, once she's recovered, you find you don't wish to honour that 'contract' - she won't mind a jot, she'll be calm and happy enough to take it non-personally in her stride as just a case of 'no longer each other's cup of tea'. Win/win. ***** Not all psychotherapeutic counsellors challenge or confront. Some echo back re-worded so that you challenge yourself, or cunningly lead/manipulate you into challenging yourself. Depends on the discipline or mix-of. So I'm *very* glad to hear that's in your curriculum, because that's what's needed, now and henceforth, with this recent worrying increase in Cluster B numbers and resultant victims. I firmly believe that if someone's been trauma bonded and brainwashed to a certain nearly permanent degree then only 'traumatic' counselling is its equal as an antidote. There's an art, however, whereby the person realises too easily that the entire time you absolutely have their best interests at heart so MEAN well (the 'bullying' is of the friendly and harmless variety, more just very bossy and masterful). Same as a dentist can cause you pain when treating you (e.g. injection). Otherwise, it's going to take that much longer to undo the damage (which is a gift that keeps giving, long after the NPD has left, meaning, you're against the habitualisations clock). But it does mean that you have to stay and soothe and massage them afterwards. Narcs don't undo the wounds they inflict - which in fact is what causes the damage - but you do undo yours and send them away without so much as a faint limp or twinge; diff/all the diff. ***** "but has said lots of day visits will be fine" Yup, agree that's healthier. "they are always moaning at her and questioning her decisions and have always thrown tantrums. But I think shes let them get away with it because she feels guilty about their dad." Absolutely, it's what I said I suspected before. But, again, I do think their mum is going a bit alarmingly fast for them in terms of slingshot-ing them into fuller independence, finally. Hence the 'protest march', particularly 'the baby' who's got more reason to fight to keep yesterday's status quo through not having 'enjoyed' as many of those 'cushy' years as elder bro. It's great that Auntie's so proactive and forceful *but* she needs to additionally possess its counter-tools so as not to be a one-trick pony in only one climate, *and* to avoid triggering all this throwing around of Hotwheels and teddies. Refer to 'over-abrupt whipping away of the chair' analogy earlier/above. At this point, she comes across 'one extreme all the way over to the other', which is not really fair when she originally helped put them there, is it? Ham-fisted is the word I think I'm looking for. I get that she's beyond Had Enough stage, but that again wasn't their fault. It was 'his'. But it's still her duty as their mum, to take all of that into account when trying to exert such a massive change. ***** "Oh my god, now that my mum has met toms mum she wants to invite them round when tom is back from uni at Xmas ugh..." What do you mean ugh? What's ugh about it? ***** Don't worry about the post-session arguments, these are ones of the healthy and productive variety. However, if they're going to let you and your sibs and auntie into it - by allowing them to witness or overhear (earwigo again) - then by-rights you should be allowed to be present for the make-up talk/debrief. So if they're not allowing that then Auntie's right to save sibs from witnessing it in the first place. Mum and dad are missing a trick. They need to end each session with a meal out. That way things won't/can't get heated but, to begin with, each of them will also word things more tactfully, etc., so as to avoid even *feeling* like making a scene. They also should take a pad and pen so as to write down any thoughts or arguments that occur whilst the other's still speaking so as to avoid the need to interrupt. That way, everyone wins. As things stand, they're (subc) trying to get every argument done and dusted now so as *not* to have any bad feelings ruin Xmas. (PS: Even Auntie's scared of Auntie. And if you can work out what I mean by that, I'll be very impressed. :-)) ***** (Good grief, I've just looked up - so incredibly inarticulate but too tired to re-write. Let me know if you need a re-write tomorrow.)

I’ll reword that, I know my mums not happy, think she’s furious about my dads accepting new job, and I don’t know how much he discussed it with her before he accepted the job. This was the main problem in the first place and I don’t think she’ wants him working away from home. With leech face she’s still very defensive. aunty has been asking why she bothers with her and my mum has got a bit snappy but I think that’s mainly to stress. But i will be asking her about all of this probably over the half whern she’s also not working and sis by at school. The bullying escalated even more to where these girls are threatening sis iand my Mum been in and out of the school talking to the head teacher, trying to sort it out. The good thing is that he boys who sis is friends with are sticking up for her. Sis is saying she’s only defends herself and not being spiteful back...I think I believe her but here is a little kinda smug look on her face too when she says this. I like the idea of going out with my mum every two weeks, just me and her. we have always been close but we lost some of that closeness when she and my dad split up. We kinda rekindled if a bit when we started up biz but it’s never really gone back to how it was. They start to argue in front of us but then my my dad is like ‘go away’ and we have to leave. he’s too scared to say that to aunty though ha. Aunty decided we shouldn’t have to go anywhere coz of the parents arguing and she kicked them out of the house for a walk every time when they started arguing over the weekend. Bro went to go to his girlftiends house, he’s smitten :-). Aunty is determind to have a nice Xmas too and so Whilst they were out, me tom aunty and sis decorated the house and outside and made it look Christmassy, not that the parent took much noticed. She did encourage them to go out for a meal for my Mums birthday and they came back separately :-/ Auntie has met a new man down the pub :-D. I’ve only seen him, quite good looking too and he’s local so if she does move here which is still seems to be happening. Think she’s goes there to recover from the parents :-/ and mainly to get her confidence back again with going out after being ill (she’s a lot better) she’s walks there and I pick her up which is the least I can do coz she been amazing . Trying to convince her to let me meet him properly. Erm aunty is scared of herself ...(this might not make any sense) she concentrates on other people (like parents, looks out for me and sibs) and likes help them fix their problems but doesn’t concentrate on herself or her own problems, like sons or try’s to make herself happy/happier coz she’s scared to? Or what might happen if she were to...er dunno, am I close? :-D I think it’s interesting Holly boyfriend was a narc, I didn’t really know him that but he did really string her along. Tom is still friends with him so I might ask him what he thinks, hes probably already analysed him. Holly actually got back in contact with me she called me it wasn’t by text or anything and she apologised for getting angry she’s says she just hurting. It was a long conversation but not a bad one. She never apologises, ever. so I think that was quite a big step for her and a positive one. And now that you explained it to me, I get it now, why she was the way she was and the whole rescuing thing and that she is fighting for our friendship etc so I’m going to try too and restart our friendship. Will take it slow to start with. I could mention Counselling I don’t know, just don’t want to sound patronising. Will think about it. Parents meeting is ugh coz my dad will be socially awkward, depending on his mood and he’s says odd/embarrassing things. I still cringe at his ‘don’t bounce on the bed’ comment . And I’m not quite ready. Not going to happen if they’re still arguing anyways. Biz is going to be in a weekly magazine that goes out in my local area. we get it but I’ve never looked at it coz I thought it was really boring :-/. One of the kids parents spoke to the right people and suggested it was something to write about, and it got agreed and someone is coming to ‘interview/find out all about it’ in the new year. Should advertise biz a bit more and should get more kiddies to teach :-).

Oh, I see, I didn't realise he'd have to be away from home for this new part-time job! Oh good grief. Why is he so incredibly intent on injecting a pocket of long-distance-ing into his marriage? What does Auntie think? Is it really merely to spice up his career or is he hell-bent on trying to have his cake and eat it in terms of getting to benefit from a pseudo semi-single life? If that's the case, meaning, *didn't* put it to the marital vote before accepting, then it becomes clear why she's keeping Lena to hand. Lena's her 'see you and raise you' Poker hand, her Ace card. Lena wants her (at the very least) to join her Singles club, doesn't she. Mum couldn't admit that to Auntie and you - give away her subtle game (or counter-game) plan - either of you might tell dad. Plus, she might not even be aware of what she's up to, enough to articulate it. Explains the 'shut-you-up' snapping in place of the guarded answer. If you tell Auntie this, ensure she'll keep it to herself and not tell dad, or else she'll be 'disarming' and scuppering mum (who is now, case-closed, the 'victim'). Likewise, if you're going to attempt to squeeze this blood out of her stone, promise faithfully and vehemently that anything she tells you will stay with you, UNTIL DEATH, no exceptions, no extenuators, including circumstantial...cast-iron guaranteed, Amen. Saying that, his intentions could be just childishly 'harmless', as in, an attempt to recreate a missed part of his young adulthood in getting to 'hang with the Lads', IN ORDER NOT TO be mutineered by the latent urge to see himself struggle himself right out of his marriage. But I don't like it. What do *you* think it is? ***** Blister could be looking smug out of a recognition of her being Loftier Than Thou (them) and knowing it means she's far more mature than them? Ditto the fact she's cleverly managed to cultivate a posse of, basically, bouncers? I expect these boys are positively climbing over each other to get this wonderful chance to play Hero and put those muscles to real-life practise, and in defense of a Tomboy at that ('prizefighter seeks bodyguard'). Again - ask her. Ask her in a flatteringly impressed way: make the 'accusation' and immediately follow it with, '...nah, what am I talking about, you're only ****teen, not Thirty-****!...sorry, forget I said anything...' (and then wait for her to argue against that 'denial of her brilliance'). Again, shouldn't *have* to manipulate, she should be treating you like the older, wiser, reasonable big blister you are...at least confiding in you, even if she didn't want any input. But you should hopefully only need to play her (For A Good Cause - diff/diff) the once to get the ball started. Or you could try saying [replete with awestruck laughter], 'Crikey! Am I right in thinking that you've somehow managed to gather yourself an actual cartel?! NO WAY!.........Have you???' (or ditto in the vein of her having so much feminine power over all those boys, as in, 'What the hell's your secret?!'). "Aunty decided we shouldn’t have to go anywhere coz of the parents arguing and she kicked them out of the house for a walk every time when they started arguing over the weekend." Was going to state the exact same criticism! "Rah-rah woo-hoo!" Auntie yet again! "Bro went to go to his girlftiends house, he’s smitten Smiling. " Yeah. Helped, not in small part, by his wanting to 'practise leaving home', as in limber-up, I'm betting. ****** Re the post-session meals out. Doesn't matter if they come back separately or have a scene in the car home. What's important is that the actual discussion itself is conducted calmly so that it goes in more and faster (and they get to practise self-control). ****** "Auntie has met a new man down the pub Grinning." (not grinning) If only Auntie had as much clarity and sensible-ness in her own love-life, eh. Case of Can't See Own Woods despite can see others' especially well. Has she never heard of taking the time to get over someone first (i.e. de-slime) so that she doesn't 'transfer' the relationship to the next bloke (or vice-versa since even situational like attracts like) or attract someone who's lazy to do their own ruinous Priming ("cheers, Other Narc!")? If you can, advise her to take it *very* slowly; it's an acid test in itself like no other. If a bloke tries to rush intimacy and commitment or "oops"-passively allows it (i.e. secretly, subtly cultivates it in her) - DUMP. Only your Narcissists or 'merely' heavily narcissistic do that, it's a classic textbook early warning sign. Think about it: a man who was normal and healthy enough would value and respect himself whereby he'd not want to embroil himself with an unknown, potentially emotionally harmful quantity and thereby put his welfare and progress in jeopardy. He himself would want to know the relationship were *safe* before going in deeper. And that instinctually takes a year at least. Narcs/AsPDs, on the other hand, need to beat your wide-awakening (over what an in-fact secret NUTJOB they are) to the marital or cohabitational alter (in her house, always her house*)...as do the female Narcs, I should swiftly add for equality's sake. (*You can't leave if they're in your house, think about it. Plus, by then, you might know you risk getting either your face or your house or its contents trashed if you sit them down and give them the bad news.) Auntie has indeed been amazing. No question about it. "Erm aunty is scared of herself ...(this might not make any sense) she concentrates on other people (like parents, looks out for me and sibs) and likes help them fix their problems but doesn’t concentrate on herself or her own problems, like sons or try’s to make herself happy/happier coz she’s scared to? Or what might happen if she were to...er dunno, am I close? Grinning" Bang-on - Gold star (and, *everything* makes sense to me, it's part of my "Marmite-ey problem"). Fear Of Success (albeit, waning). Although, it wasn't actually the answer I was looking for. It's this: she's intimidating....she barks and growls early, even immediately, as a default, as a full-time (note) Early Warning System (you tell it's not mere hot air from the myriad actions-actions-actions as all point exclusively to excellent agenda and get *completed*), so THAT she won't have to see the situation progress to the point where she's forced to fully unleash her inner beastie or (by then) get mutineered by it beyond any choice or control. It's a biggie. IMO, it's a raging Psychopath. Don't panic! - it's very much Pro Social (psychopathy itself isn't a problem - the Pro Socials are your Police and Firemen/women, surgeons, etc. - any more than "guns are dangerous" - and yes they *do* have empathy - now-proven research fact...but the bad psychopaths push it aside, can literally (as only a psycho can do) turn it on and off at will like a tap, so that it can't scupper their overriding, rotten, survivalist agenda...the original clue having been, they have empathy for themselves - in bucketfuls!). She's a monster of a saint, IOW. Put another, easier way: there's your bad-to-evil psycho (Lex Luther) and then there's your good-to-saintly psycho (Superman). Superman is *obsessed*, *compulsed* and *over-focused* with/on doing the selfless, right thing and only the right thing, always-always-always, and using his (or her) superior levels of strength for the power of social, human and world good - just *any* underdog/good cause - but, being a psycho, is perfectly capable of switching to unleashing his/her inner monster TOWARDS OTHER FULL-TIME MONSTERS, never innocents/victims. The good psychos are the superior, Top Dog out, shown by the fact they've enough self-esteem and strength of mind spare to give away to other people and interests...their cup spilleth over, IOW. And instead of having to turn ON their empathy, like your bad'uns, they merely have to turn that which is usually permanently on, off, if and when called-for. (Surprisingly simple when you think about it in those terms, isn't it.) Niceness<-->Goodness,...is absolutely not the character trait that most erroneously think it is. It's a CHOICE - FACT!...Usually made, IMO, because - being 'everyone's parent', a natural-born leader self-separated by whatever degree from the 'hoi polloi' (which efficacy demands constant objectivity of mind to avoid the danger of being influence-able by others' emotionality) - there's huge guilt at the strong but un-graspable sense/suspicion of how nasty - how much of a lethal SHARK - they're capable of being, given the right trigger to the right degree. Enter equal level of compensation, in terms of effort in taking responsibility and leading (check). But that negative, judgemental label, itself is due to the societal-wide, ignorance-based misunderstanding and misconclusions over psychopathy leading to having to necessarily and automatically be a bad thing. (I'll say it again: I've known genuinely *good, well-meaning, perfectly benign* Narcs and Psychos; whatever type exists will consist of good'uns and bad'uns.) She's scared of and ashamed at her inner animal. Because it's that big and powerful. It's no different to belonging to the population sector that sports Brown hair as opposed to Red, Blonde or Black. Out of that sector, some individuals will be intrinsically healthy and do-gooding and some ucked-up/uck-up-able, or whatever degree in between. Same for your Red heads, etc. It's the person, not what culture, creed, colour, religion, gender, age... Or put another way: for a good psycho, exterminating psychologically/spiritually (from within) or actually (from without - murder) is a very last resort. Bad psycho - first to mid resort. Diff/ALL THE DIFF! What, IMO, makes the nucleic difference? [1] The state of THE SOUL. And that, you're born with (IMO, depending on how many lives you've been ("fail!") sent back to live). [2] Next (fact) comes whether your parents are spooked by you (or not), thus don't show you enough love via physically and/or emotionally keeping a distance (or not)...basically, as with any type of child, whether how they are with you both encourages out and rewards thus reinforces what you are into a good thing or bad thing ...the bad being the parents', particularly mother's, own fearful attitude automatically creating a negative self-fulfilling prophesy/driving into the oncoming cars (see 'We Have To Talk About Kevin' by Lionel whassherface...Schriver, I think?). What can override that in the current absence, still, of enough global societal and medical understanding of the condition - which they now believe has legitimately neurological basis as much as Autism - is iQ and its 7-Signs 'arrangement', meaning, even if the parents and/or siblings 'shun' you, you've the brains and inner mettle to work out why that is, allow them that failing/not take it personally, and just get on with parenting/rearing yourself (like you're programmed to do and would have rebelled to do, anyway) and, if you're intelligent enough, in the right and healthy, optimising direction. (That's why I adore little boys and girls who aspire to being "Thuperman" or "Thuperwoman", running around with their little capes on. That freewill choice of dressing-up outfit plus 'what they do with it' once dressed (think Mr Ben) is an obvious-but-overlookable indicator of a good heart/soul + innate (starting) intelligence aspiring towards its fullest potential, perfectly accessible destiny.) In short, if you've got a little psycho on your hands, do yourself and him/her and the world a favour by taking the poor little ugger to see Superman before s/he's 6 or buy him/her Superman comics or whatever other hero figure to latch onto. S/He'll basically sit there through the film, feeling an affinity and 'thinking', 'Well, I reckon I could do That...once I'm bigger, anyway. And That. And what's so hard about That, that's just a logical response, isn't it?'. Thus self-identified, from thence will it grow. GOOD psychopaths are Walking Miracles and God knows where we'd be without them (knee-deep in bad psychos, is the obvious answer, since Like fights Like). And you can include Einstein in that; thinking in terms of Boss over what?, you can't get much more hugely socially-responsible leader than ignoring the people/small stuff and aiming your uber-control-freak mitts straight for the Universe its very self, now, can you?) Look again at Auntie and count up not only the amount of suitcases she carries all at once, but their weight as well. (Clicking yet?) Monsters have correspondingly huge backs, innit. Heh-heh...You'll never look at Ghandi and Mother Theresa the same way again, will ya. ;-) Steven Spielberg - psycho (good, if idealistic). Theresa May - psycho (good) (and war minister, actually, IMO...female Churchill for WWIV - cyber version). Jesus (good psycho de luxe, obvs)... (...You have a go? Who else can you spot?) Auntie must have somehow been made and/or worked out she should be secretly ashamed at being a little psychopath, despite given enough attention, praise, encouragement and cuddles (phew, eh?) (IMO,) Lena's a mere Narc (Malig., on the cups of psycho) - midway on the pathological scale and originally 'made' (rendered) bad. Takes one type to know one, and accordingly (think about it) she proved she was scared/intimidated - instantly - of her [wait for it] senior officer & more powerful superior. Geddit? Full-blown/top psychos aren't scared of no-one or nuffink. Who else did she act especially or instantly wary of? Note dad didn't want to confront and challenge her? Not even by proxy of saying a word to mum or anyone? He kept completely zipped. Including his feet where directness and overtness was concerned (he just passively out-carrotted Lena)....while others were going, 'Quick, we've got to DO something, rescue her!'. But anyway, that's what I meant right up there, when I made that little 'cult...me an' yer sister' / 'no, you AREN'T!' / 'yikes, no I aren't!' skit. (You'd be surprised at how much rich data I can get out of mere chit-chat, Lils. But don't let that put you off because it's all very useful for you. Identification is nine-tenths cure. "Know thy patient". Always. From there, you can even customise your 'treatment' if need be. Identification is not just key, it's everything from start to finish.) ...And now I'm pretty certain logical extrapolation will have borne a specific, burning question you're bursting to ask, but don't dare. Well, to make it easy for you - the answer is Affirmative. And then the next logical answer in line is - Yup again - purely logical, Holmes (but clever you). :-) However, we'll keep that and what those questions are, under our hats, eh. Suffice it to say, you 'know' I know, and I 'know' you know (or will in a min). ;-) ***** "I think it’s interesting Holly boyfriend was a narc, I didn’t really know him that but he did really string her along" Well, yes. Because that's what they do. It's not enough on its own, but if you already have a list of habitual or what-must-be habitual, characteristic symptoms, the minimum required for any specific condition/illness diagnosis, then - Three Cherries City. And anyway - you *did* know. That's why I asked you, why the interest, remember? You just didn't yet know you knew or why. Huge clues about him (and her): We had her so consumed/possessed that she 'dropped' her friends (yet nonetheless didn't seem happy). We have "Pa-jrrrris". We have, him getting her to do the asking, the man's role, i.e. his job (proven by the fact he said yes). We have, Needing a Jimminy (Tom). We have Jimminy feeling the URGE - as strong as taking action (coulda got himself decked, think about it) - to step in. We have, ignoring his stellar advice and guidance (i.e. wasn't rendered at all shameful at the realisation via the pointing-out). We have, him proving he wasn't merely unaware (into shameful) via the fact he proceeded unchanged (middle finger to Tom). We have her still in a mess (injured and spaghettified) one 'WHOLE YEAR' on (sociopaths don't do heartbroken because they were never genuinely in-love to begin with, being dysfunctional in that regard). We have her acting out messily (victim), rather than hiding her feelings and purely machinating. We have her upstanding, strong-personed, RESPONSIBLE actions in response to the super-intimidating (i.e. feeling and enduring the fear of face-to-face plus two-against-one, but doing it anyway and failing to flounce out), despite her nonsensical verbals. We have her being disappointed at your lack of stepping in to rescue (which, in the context of all the other clues and her age/stage, is her projection of her own Situation Normal inclination beneath her erstwhile battered state) and with humility enough to vocalise it (albeit messily). We have daring to say so to two strong people (desperation). We have her expending huge effort on you/your friendship (paying/working for her refusal to let you go easily, rather than relying on her mouth). We have her FAILING to convince/persuade (i.e. hypnotise) you, even slightly. And we have Auntie showing she ultimately felt sorry for her (instead of recoiling, like she did with Lena). ...and other "things 'n stuff" besides. A Narc, even a mild'un, doesn't need emotional help and certainly wouldn't ask for it (or a double-pincered a*se-whooping). Not like that. Plus - how did she get that into him in the first place, and in such a short space of time, whereby she can't even wash him out of her hair after he dealt the cruellest insult (Paris) nor even long after they've ended? (Ta-daa - Love-bombing = biochemical chains, of course. Not 'desperate' naturally - MADE desperate.) I mean - come ON... If you're not that into a girl you do not agree in the first place to go to, of all places, Paris - the city of Love - for a sustained visit - least of all with another couple so obviously already in-love and serious/in it to win it. Because if you do, you're 'saying something', same as if you (neg version) accepted an invitation to a swinger's party or Labour Conference or Klu Klux Klan meeting. Your *first* thought would be, 'OMG, this girl I'm not that into and already planning on dumping wants me to go to an I Love You party; I have to get out of this/tell her now or automatically render myself a cad!'. The cringing guilt, in other words. He not only had no guilt (no conscience) but he unwarrantedly and needlessly-avoidably upset her bang-slap on the peak of the trip. Even 'in front of' you two. What a w***er. Yet, seemingly incredibly, she still didn't dump. Equals, COULDN'T. Enslaved then, still enslaved now. Desperate and prepared to swallow her pride...with someone she'd already fallen out with, no less. And - correspondingly - APOLOGISED...to the point where I can tell you could tell it was genuine. Case closed. However, he *could* just be incredibly immature and still in naturally Narcissistic teen mode. Time will tell on that score, whether he grows out of it or not. If it were me, I'd stay and help her, put her under my wing. Even if I didn't like her/her behaviour any more. Just because it's the right thing to do (and the only way to stop these toxics). And, now obviously - so would you. :-) (Proud of you, btw.) Not going to coach you into how to do that - you don't need it. But one thing that's paramount that you wouldn't necessarily think of: do not DO NOT *DO NOT-NOT-NOT* let her date for a good year. Whatever it takes. Sit on her if you have to. She's still slimed and will appeal AND DRAW TO HER, a *veteran* Narc (they can smell slime like sharks, blood in the water) who's sick 'n tired of, yawn!, having to Prime his victims first (it's the drudgery part), meaning, next time she'll attract a raging, *bad* psycho. Let her resent you for a brief while but permanently burst with gratitude toward you later when it all falls into place. She clearly needs help to once-and-for-all de-slime and equally clearly ain't going to get that from her mother who's (I reckon) too busy licking her *own* wounds. So who else the uck does she have? See her alone or with Megan, not with Tom. Don't talk about your relationship, or if she asks, play it down or remind her of the humdrum (spotted him picking his nose yesterday, ugh, boys, eh?!). When you're with her - you're single (albeit not interested and available, obvs.). Help her cultivate a hobby she can't put down so she stays away - CAN stay away - from pubs, parties....basic cruising grounds. Maybe even give her a (back-room) job in your biz? Or help her make plans - she needs a present or near-future project to aim for, it's *vital* to have a goal that represents the prize for and healthy distraction toward abstaining. Ultimately, if a person's too far slimed for Cold Turkey, they need to simply redirect their addiction from the unhealthy to the healthy and long-term rewarding. But here's what will likely happen once she's fully recovered: for a good year, possibly more, she will no longer want to be around you whom has become the walking memory of her at her worst as 'now' makes her cringe at the thought of, nor you-the too-obviously-'superior'-figure...she'll start to make herself scarce, make excuses, cancel/break plans, fade out... She might so want and need to forget and disassociate New Her from the embarrassingly shame-inducing era, that she has to stay away from anyone or anything that reminds her. But she'll be back at some point, not least if ever you're down or injured (in order to level the playing field - positive, healthy version). Re counselling: sell it. It's not a place where weak or stupid people go (pff! - we wish!). It's where strong, courageous and especially intelligent but injured or slightly lost people go...just a psychological version of visiting the dentist to get your teeth filled and then whitened. It's proof of self-like at the very least. Frankly, not wanting to go would be akin to dreading and being embarrassed about attending a glamour make-over shop or taking your car to the mechanic's to find out why the steering's pulling to the left. Feeling that fear but doing it anyway proves you're fixable and improve-able (all humans, regardless of any mental illness, even, are non-overridingly programmed to avoid acts of *futility*, thus do just that, big-fat-innit). (Guess who (plural) have been responsible for cultivating this infectious shame and fear of needing counselling by labelling it a sign of weakness - go on, I'll give you 5 guesses!) And there's nothing patronising about suggesting counselling, because you, Lils, wouldn't even bother if you didn't have every confidence in her, not to mention respect (think about it and get her to think about it). If something's really special to you, you want it fixed rather than have to throw it in the bin - simples! It's the ultimate act of healthy self-like/love...a tool/amenity that's been put on a table perfectly accessible to her, which is for her lasting, hugely life-enhancing, happy-making benefit, no more scary than a step-ladder up to an ever-replenishing jar of sweets. Plus, it's fun (*great* fun - I mean - doooo WHAT? - where else in life are you allowed to talk incessantly about yourself?). It's a privileged pampering as well as a 'surgical' ankle-weights removal under 'anaesthetic'. So it's a compliment and reason for pride. Americans seemingly know all of this, hence, since the 80s, it's 'my therapist this, my therapist that...' to all and sundry (thanks to Oprah, probably), like a badge of honour. Next suggestion is, offer to go with her for the first session or (counsellor allowing - explain and s/he will) just until she says - the once - Stop. It'll be the sort of excellent experience for you that money can't buy, Lils. Warning: primary, paramount, crucial, non-negotiable selection question to therapist: are you well-acquainted personally or (better yet) professionally with Narcissism and NVS plus PTSD and/or CPTSD? (That's what she's got, by the way - CPTSD.) If the answer's No, it's "NEEXT!". If she's still loath, there's always The Freedom Programme 'classes' (short but miraculous book by founder, Pat Craven - Living With The Dominator (ignore the living with bit, makes no odds)). There'll be one near you, and you can absolutely go with her each time. There, she'll meet fellow, injured targets of all classes and age ranges (and you, copious A1 professional research material + personal, preventative, indepth knowledge). Or - for the reclusive (lol) - just buy her for Christmas, 'How To Spot A Dangerous Man (*Before* You Get Involved)' - "Describes 8 Types of Dangerous Men, Gives Defense Strategies and a Red Alert Checklist for Each" - by the positively angelic (mwa-mwa-MWA!!!) Sandra M. Brown MA. Cost - approx £10 new, £7 and less second-hand-like-new. But given *now*. And get her YouTubing and Googling on the topic. ****** "Parents meeting is ugh coz my dad will be socially awkward, depending on his mood and he’s says odd/embarrassing things. I still cringe at his ‘don’t bounce on the bed’ comment . And I’m not quite ready. Not going to happen if they’re still arguing anyways." "And I’m not quite ready." - that one!, lol. Which, btw, Tom knows**. Hence subtly and surreptitiously testing you out in the first week of uni, combined with his mouth and surface behavioural attempt to say 'Don't care!' in the face of actions that still scream 'Bloody-ucking do!'. But PS: how your parents behave has absolutely no reflection on you. How you *react* will say more in that regard (take the humorous piss). But this is a moot point, anyway; I'm sure your dad, he who deals with the general public every single day and - ooh, lookie! - strangely *hasn't* ever been fired, knows perfectly well how to behave on an important, ground-breaking (for you) occasion. But nice try, lol. ** If ever a lover manages to make you feel, uncharacteristically for you, insecure/threatened/possessive/jealous/non-confident, it's because he's trying to even the playing-field by bringing you down to *his* level, so's to get to keep you (because you're good Narc. Supply). Remember that. Conversely, a man (or woman) who genuinely feels more fortunate or superior (which auto-excludes your NPDs and other unhealthies) will naturally try to build you UP, more to his level. The more extreme the negative result/attempt (and frequency), the more you can measure his level and tell whether the degree befits some emotional/mental problem (which is *all about* degrees). And that's all one ever needs to be aware of, ultimately, when it comes to Keep -v- Dump: does this person make me feel bad and/or bad about myself and if so, how often and how markedly (as a percentage/ratio), compared to the opposite? But like you say - not going to happen yet, anyway. ***** "Biz is going to be in a weekly magazine that goes out in my local area. we get it but I’ve never looked at it coz I thought it was really boring :-/. One of the kids parents spoke to the right people and suggested it was something to write about, and it got agreed and someone is coming to ‘interview/find out all about it’ in the new year. Should advertise biz a bit more and should get more kiddies to teach Smiling." :-O (Y) (Y) (Y) (Y) (Y) Not surprised. It is a ground-breaker of a biz, after all. Lucky mag! Remember me when you're famous and sat on the panel of Dragon's Den, won't you. :-)

Yeah, it’s same hospital where my dad will be commuting and staying away from home, like 4 hours away. It’s not good at the moment :-(. I think it’s both, I think it is the job, money but also the fact that he always has to get his own way in the end...eventually, he can’t let go once his mind is made up about something. Dont understand why he’s brought this all up again coz him accepting this job has really, really f**ked things up. My mum sat me down on saturday, and told me that my dad accepting this job is a real deal breaker for her. Shes made it very clear to him and he will be the one who will be moving out and will need to find somewhere to live. She told me this a little too softly, so I had to ask if they were going to end up getting divorced and she said it was highly likely because she can’t see how this can be fixed or how she can trust him. Apparently, it’s not just him accepting the job, it’s also how he handled it. he put the job offer on hold, told my mum he wasn't going to take it, so he lied, made things ok(ish) with her again went back a couple of months later (now) and accepted the job. I knew something was very wrong because my dad slept downstairs, after a really big row since Thursday and they have been doing there own thing over the weekend, keeping well out of each other’s way. My dads study has become his bedroom. Have tried to talk to my dad but he told me quite aggressively to stay out of it when I tried. Aunty is furious with my dad and what he’s done but she’s not tried to put him in his place...yet. she doesn’t think my mum wouldn’t of had that conversation with me without meaning any of it. My mum told aunty she wants to be honest so it’s not such a shock when it does happen. My mum talked to bro and sis too indivuslly coz i think she knew we would react differently. Aunty did think maybe my mum should try with my dad working away and see what it’s like but then she back tracked and said that it would last. Normally she reassures me in some way and let’s me know if she thinks my Mum is overreacting but she hasn’t so far. She thinks I should carry on concentrating on college, biz, friends and tom - and her words were ‘whatever happens don’t let it f*ck you up’. tom doesn’t even know any of this yet, he came back home for Xmas today, (for a whole month yay, ) but I’ve been avoiding seeing him coz its too raw voice it/wanted to write it on here first. ******* With leech face, my mum said she hasn’t even told her whats happening but she has confined in another friend (who is a very normal and nice) they’ve been friends for years. ********* Holly - Feels nice not to be angry with her anymore, also realise I wasn’t completely innorcent either. Ok I won’t let her date, that will be interesting, probably will end up sitting on her coz she’s always had a boyfriend, all the way through high school - when she didn’t have one she was on the look out for one. I think she can do with a break now but it will be really hard for her. Getting her to go to Counselling is also going to be interesting too because she doesn’t get it, she is actually one of those people who do think therapy are for really messed up people but I think she could be persuaded, if I sell it to her. It would be really interesting to sit in. At college we have our own new group of friends, which I think is good, so we won’t see each other all the time and we’ll make it more outside of college. Will have to see if Megan wants to be friends with her again, before she didn’t want anything to do with holly but if I explain things she might understand but she’s at uni anyways so not like they’re going to see each other a lot. I reckon I could find her a job in biz...but that does mean me her and tom will likely to be together, in the holidays. ***** I did manage to find away to tell aunty to take it slow with new man and she’s confirmed they are just friends for now and have nice talks that’s it. she rolled her eyes at me and was like ‘it not like I can bring him back home anyway, even if I wanted to’ . A good psycho :-D (liked reading about the good and bad psychos, that was really interesting) she’s always been crazy but I think she can now start look after herself a bit more. Might even get aunty the book Xmas, still need to get her a present and I’ve been meaning to read and watch ‘we need to talk about Kevin’ for ages.

Your dad. Wow. He really is socially inept, isn't he, even in a society of two. I don't think your average mature male with an accordingly democratic attitude towards any *PART-NER-SHIP* (say it slow for poor Forrest) would ever condone what he's done or expect to come out unscathed. Whether he entered into so-called marital partnership talks before dismissing her say and going ahead anyway or went entirely behind her back (I flippin' hope not!) - did he somehow suppose that whittling it down to a part-time position, i.e. half the previous proposition, somehow represented a compromise, even in the absence of being unanimously voted in? His bed, he can lie on it. However, the Fat Lady still hasn't sung. It's obvious that your mother, unbeknown to her, didn't punish and deter him quite enough last time before returning to the cosy nest (not that she can be placed at any iota of fault for that because - how the hell was she to know he was lying and humouring her?). But that's okay - practise makes perfect...and, as the early return and failure to get things sewn up 'in writing' (i.e. onerous avenues blocked) it was only a run-up anyway....her newly flexing and building up her somewhat nowadays flaccid musculature (thanks to having been for years Having (Doing) It All). Putting her foot *all* the way down is the right - and only thing to do. Good for her. (And - "phew!" to the fact of her new friend.) Now his choice is clear, isn't it: his marriage and all he's spent years building up or getting to...what? Enhance his career status and pay-packet? What happened to that lady friend after the 'car in driveway' incident, the one who tipped him off about the vacancy in the first place? He'd have to be an utter idiot to forge ahead with this. So IF HE DOES - we have our answer about how valuable to him his marriage, etc., is (or how incapable he is of appreciating these things when in the spaghettified midst of a mid life crisis). Equally, we'd have to presume that, that hospital features one mighty big carrot, begging the 6 Million Dollar question, WHAT IS IT? Or is the carrot indeed his getting his way over 'his' vocational career? I mean - really? A mere job, not even full-time, is worth losing your wife, family life as you know it, half at least of your wealth, assets, savings, pension funds, shares, investments, immediate and extended family relationships (per se or quality of)...QUALITY OF LIFE AS YOU KNOW IT? What are they offering him - a penthouse office suite with all the trappings, three personal assistants, chauffeur-driven limosine and a 6-figure salary (plus a genie in a bottle)? Isn't he basically just 'asking' her for a divorce? Bar 'the spare room'-ing - do you know what his reaction was when and ever since her having spelled out the giant consequences to him? I imagine he got quite aggressive because he knows a truth-seer and -sayer like yourself would argue him into a corner of truth, meaning, he knows he's entirely in the wrong without a rational leg to stand on, let alone acceptable. (And evidently the counsellor hit a nerve as well.) But does she know FOR A CAST-IRON FACT that his job-acceptance is formal and 'irreversible'? Or is that a lie as well, meant to force her to get used to the idea in record time, i.e. him trying it on, so that once the clock runs out on his formally accepting, he can do so with confidence? Your *mum* means it, sure - or, should I reiteratingly say, is actively pushing herself all the way to Mean It - hence not just sitting you all down this time, but one-by-one, individually. You'd think that were not only unnecessary but against typical protocol. So that speaks volumes to me: That makes THREE SEPARATE tellings (or four if you count Auntie). Talk about mum cementing her conviction so that she can't possibly be talked or fobbed out of it this time! But I'm not sure dad does; otherwise, why hasn't he flounced out to his own place already, why stay in the house for another second? And likewise, why hasn't mum chucked him out already, why LET him set up camp in the study so that everyone can see and feel him sulk, where's the point? *Actions*, Lils. WATCH THEIR FEET, not what they say/don't say. Nope, it's still Poker as far as I can see. But the stakes have been raised. But - stay out of WHAT? Something you're already in and have always been in? (Letter time?...therein explaining you just want to understand where he's coming from and because it's your familial co-ownership and 'victim' RIGHT AS WELL AS NEED-TO-KNOW, ACTUALLY?) However, you may not get much joy AND LET'S HOPE YOU DON'T! If he refuses to show you his cards it's because he thinks he has a potentially winning, but vulnerable, hand. What I mean is - the job may not be the point, getting his way over something that's "his" might be the point, to make or preserve an actually quite scarce remit of control and responsibility? I wouldn't know. You'd have to tot up who historically got to make which and how many family-affecting decisions. What I mean is, sometimes it can *appear* as if one party gets their way when, really, what they tend to get their way over is the small stuff. So - kids, diet, which schools, live where, which type/style of house, pensions with whom....holidays, purchases, including home improvements, budget limits,...it's a long list once you marry and have kids. Who in your estimation historically gets to make all the really important, crucial stuff to do with you kids and family life present and future? Again, he's the acter-outer rocking the boat...clearly wasn't happy with how things stood. Why not and with what? [a] "Dad. Please. Just TALK to me. I only want to understand your point of view, I won't judge, I promise." Try it. It's worth a go, anyway - don't ask, don't get and all of that? [b] Print out and leave lying around-oops-a-daisy the right-between-the-eyes article I'm going to post separately straight after this. It won't eff you up, any of you (*if* it comes to it). That's obvious from the fact each of you has been very busy lately, putting down serious, firm anchors into your love and social lives (which blister's loyal male posse counts as), now knowing that *your* lives can remain as untouched as possible, whether the parents stay together or not. And I'm 100% certain you'll be fine, especially. How do I know? Because instead of forgetting to address all of the other, 'minor' news items, you included them. (Actions - see? - they, or certainly the whole cocktail, tell you all you need to know. :-)) So has Auntie actually moved in? And have you let Tom in on it yet? ****** Holly: all you need to do, rather than have to sit on her, is get her googling why it's a bad idea- aw, s*d it - here (for starters): http://www.miaminewtimes.com/arts/four-reasons-why-rebound-dating-is-more-dangerous-than-you-think-6509192. And then she needs to up it a level by googling about why it's especially a bad - AND POTENTIALLY *ACTUALLY* DANGEROUS - idea *after a Narcolationship* (diff/diff). (I know the Miami writer alludes to having been a Narc's 'partner', but not in-yer-face enough for my liking, not for this exercise. The DefCon-ed are cloth-eared, they need LENGTHY/DETAILED, VOLUME KNOB AT 11 AND/OR 10-FOOT TALL LETTERS WRITTEN ON THEIR FACE. They need Drama, basically...because that's what they've been primed as a daily, operative state to exist in, and haven't come down and out of that habit yet.) One needs about 6 months' minimum break after a normal, healthy relationship with a normal, healthy guy. But it's a whole different - LONGER - ball-game, otherwise, oh BOY is it! Because you don't just need to be clear over Why, you need even more fundamental than that - WHAT WAS IT HAPPENED AND HOW DID IT?! You, the slimed, can't feel the slime in terms of lingering remnants. You can *feel* fine again, yet not be, merely because the larger part of it has dripped or been showered off. But they can smell it, even a molecule of it. Doubt she'll still find it hard after researching into it; she'll probably run like crazy straight into his/her office. This - getting someone to spot little spots of slime hidden in her ear creases and still coating her nostrils, etc. (again, think sharks and one single molecule of blood in the water, this is no analogy, just a parallel) - could make the difference between her finally getting shot of La-La Land and ending up happily married on-schedule or wasting decades of her love-life, and possibly her chance to ever have kids, on nasty idiots out to do nothing but take-take-take while barring/blocking all avenues for complaint/redress/change, as leaves the target 'satisfyingly' more and more on the floor each time/with each 'partner' until literally helpless. They're JUST unincarcerated mental patients wandering freely in the community, passing themselves off as sentient, empathetic humans capable of being someone else's - a Giver's - love partner. Yes, they can earn a wage (cough! - and pay taxes!!), and run (superficial) social relationships. But you let them as close in and up as a romantic or other especially mentally intimate relationship and - they ruin lives, health, bank balances, possessions, other relationships...you name it. (It's Guantanamo Bay, Jim, just not as we know it.) Nah. Counselling is for the strong, caring and capable, those who try-try-try and fix-fix-fix rather than discard. It's no more magical or complicated than borrowing someone else's brain power because it's faster and more thorough as a biological PC to network up with another 'more powerful' PC than to remain a stand-alone, trying to de-virus its own programme or applications - simple as. If *only* the messed-ups were opting for it!...then us healthies wouldn't *need* counsellors! Nope... it's a sign of a survivor with, accordingly, BRAVERY and the CLEVERNESS AND EFFICIENCY TO DELEGATE! Or does she indeed do her own tooth-drilling and filling as well? :-p Ask her: Look at it this way: how's *not* having gone to Counselling been working out for ya so far, eh? (Game, Set, Match!) Get Megan to help you persuade her if necessary (yeah, she'll understand). "but that does mean me her and tom will likely to be together, in the holidays" Ah. Any task she can do from home (or that you visit to do with her), regardless of peak customer seasons? Could you, for example, pay her to leaflet-drop (and be responsible for its design and production)? It needs to be non-taxing (and preferably involve exercise for the release of feelgood chems), anyway, certainly to start with, what with her about to 'network up' and have a lot of re-thinking to do. "and she’s confirmed they are just friends for now and have nice talks that’s it. she rolled her eyes at me and was like ‘it not like I can bring him back home anyway, even if I wanted to’ ." Yeah. I've heard that one before. I'll say it again: what you as "the mark" intend, think, don't think, want, don't want - including keeping it casual per se or 'for now'...means diddly squat! They are CON(fidence) artists. ART...ISTS. Talking is how they get in your jello and under your skin (empathy is the conduit). Never mind...you've said it, it's gone in...will get her aware and on the look-out, that's the main thing. Re 'Talk About Kevin'. The book was incredible. The film, the usual total let-down in comparison (too much input by the producers and directors, even altered the plot). You can *see* the mother reacting in the most negatively self-prophesising, exacerbatory way possible to the dawning of what her child is, right before your eyes. *And* giving herself excuses in the vein of, nothing can be done anyway so best I just keep a distance as much as possible (pff). So I vote, book. Auntie will find it un-put-down-able, I'm sure.

(I know you guys aren't little any more but the far-reaching principles stand.) ____________________________________________________________________________ When a Family Man Thinks Twice Joshua Coleman, Ph.D. San Francisco Chronicle June 18, 2000 (Father's Day) You get married. And at some point you don't know if the marriage is going to work. And since it's your first marriage, you feel discouraged and hopeless and start believing that your marriage looks nothing like the ones on TV or in US magazine. And you think how nice it would be to have a marriage like that, built on friendship, hiking, and an active sex life. And since it's a marriage with children, you don't know what it feels like to be divorced with children, and figure it might not be that bad. It's a tradeoff. And people say everything in life is a tradeoff, so there must be something worthwhile about tradeoffs. And you start thinking about it after you leave the movie theater because your marriage once looked like the movie marriage, at least when you were first dating. Or, maybe the movie is realistic, with lots of alienated, confused adults, but, even those movies feature somebody who's falling in love, like the two teenagers in American Beauty. And so you compare your marriage to the teenagers in American Beauty and wonder how you got as far off the track as Kevin Spacey, and do you need to get a GTO and start smoking pot again to find yourself, even if you're smart enough to date somebody your own age instead of your daughter's friend? And maybe you realize that the same actors you're comparing your marriage to on the screen, are having as much trouble in their marriages off the screen as you are having in yours, at home. And so you stop comparing yourself to their happy on screen marriages, and compare yourself to them as happy divorced actors who have their kids part-time and live in LA or New York or on their ranches in Montana. And at the playground, watching your kids go down the slide with your wife, you end up sitting by a divorced father. And if you've never been divorced, you won't see his loneliness as he stretches his legs and watches and waves at his children because he looks like you, when you wave and smile at yours playing on the swings, or that circular spinning thing that makes you nauseous when you have the poor judgment to get on it. And you don't see that this very same child on the swing set saying look at me look at me will have to be returned to her mother's house like a videotape by six because that was the time agreed to in the agreement. And you may not know the sadness he feels returning that child to her mother as she closes the door to him like a vault while his kid waves, sad, bewildered or worse, happy to be back with her mom and now oblivious of him, her father. And you, who walk in and out of your home every day with your wife and kids, can't know what it's like to sit in your car and watch the place you lived in as family, knowing your child is in there, laughing, talking loudly, or waving briefly at you from the window like she does when her uncle leaves. And since you are married, and wake up every day to your child's loud laughter and endless questions and requests and frustrations and hurts, you can't contemplate the deadwood barrenness of a house deprived of that sound. And you wouldn't know that going home to that silence, a silence you craved many times while married, is a silence found more often on hillsides, after a large-scale fire. And being married, you and your wife may have just put your child to bed with Harry Potter or the Little Engine That Could or other magical children's stories that teach the value of never giving up and struggling against the odds. And as the evening goes on, you end up in one of those god awful fights with her that leave you feeling alone and why should you have to put up with this as hard as you work and try. And it's hard to feel like nobody else has it as bad or understands what you feel except perhaps the woman you've begun to have an affair with who always says the right thing and makes you feel good about yourself, which, of course, you deserve. And the sex with the woman you're having an affair with is unbelievable because sex is always unbelievable in affairs or else why would anybody bother? And since you're a married father, who goes on vacations with his kids and helps them with their soccer, homework or playground politics, you may underestimate the feelings of seeing your child walk out of the house you once lived in as family, holding the hand of your ex-wife's new husband. Perhaps you're surprised by the stab of betrayal when you hear your child refer to your ex-wife's new husband as "my other daddy." And even though you've had enough psychotherapy to start a clinic on both coasts, you watch yourself get mad and hurt and state that she Does not, Can not and Will not have another daddy because that is a position only you can fill and if she ever brings up that phrase again, something really bad is going to happen to somebody, you're just not sure who. And you begin to wonder if anything is worth this kind of pain. Is anything worth having your baby, your child, your self, handed to you and ripped back out like an assembly line robot on a killing spree, week after week after week after week? And friends and family and professionals say it will get better over time and it does get better because you eventually get better at finding new and improved ways to blind and numb yourself. And people will tell you this change is called growth. And you know that must mean growth is highly overrated. And you always swore you would be a great dad and you have been but you better set your sorry ass down with divorce and give thanks for every other weekend or summer visitation or some other version of fatherhood that has nothing to do with family and everything to do with an arrangement so dubious only a court can invent it. And maybe when your kids grow up and go off to college or move out you'll feel better. But then maybe you won't. Maybe their new independence will just free them up to see your limitations even more clearly. And though you would never do it, you come to understand those lost fathers, marginalized through their own mistakes or a lousy arrangement, moving miles away and rarely calling, leaving their kids bobbing and drifting like toys thrown from the back of a moving boat. And how these fathers get struck dead and dumb years later when there's an angry and betrayed call from a child who's now a teenager or an adult. And how these dads stumble out an excuse that tries to be an apology but ends up blaming the child and the ex-wife, and leaves the kid glad the father wasn't around in the first place no wonder mom wanted out. And maybe you'd never let it get to that point and you do need to leave your marriage. Maybe the smoking stacked years of hurt and resentment are sooting the air you and your family breathe and no priest or rabbi or therapist can ever reverse it because you already tried all that. And you end up falling in love with someone new because she reminds you of all the qualities you love best; those of your children, your closest friends and you hate to admit it but - yeah, those of your ex-wife. And then, whether it's the right thing or the wrong thing, better or worse, you look back. And at some point, your kids ask when you and mom are going to live together again. And though they eventually stop asking, they won't stop hoping. And they carry that hope the way you carry your love for them - soft, constant, and close to the surface. And no matter how awful it was to be married and how grateful you are to be out, and how much getting out was the right decision, some part of you may always wonder, was there something else I could have done? Something? Copyright Joshua Coleman. For reprint permission, contact Dr Coleman at: Web: http://www.drjoshuacoleman.com Office and voicemail: (415) 567-2741 (PST) Email: [e-mail address removed] Dr. Coleman's book "Imperfect Harmony: How to Stay Married for the Sake of Your Children and Still Be Happy," (St. Martin's Press), is available in bookstores everywhere or order on amazon for only $16.77 at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/031228974X/smartmarriages "Coleman isn't afraid to tell the truth: not all marriages can be joyful at all times, but that isn't a cause for divorce, especially with children involved. Even if your marriage is never going to be the one you dreamed of, you can still live happily ever after. With practical advice and genuine empathy, Coleman encourages spouses to stick it out: their marriage may not change drastically for the better, he says-but then again, it just might." And/or, order a CD or audiotape of his 90-min workshop on this topic at 800-241-7785 for only $15 #754-505. It's a great tape for couples (or individuals) teetering on the brink. #754-505 - Imperfect Harmony Joshua Coleman, PhD Not all marriages can be made deeply meaningful or even satisfying. Learn how to help couples achieve harmony - even happiness - in marriages that stay together "just for the sake of the kids."

PS: After printing it out - using a ruler, strike through the bits about having an affair, with one, single, continuous line - IN PENCIL. You're then saying, this bit doesn't apply to you, I realise. But he'll still be able to read it if - IF - that's what he's thinking of doing and why the carrot is too tantalisingly irresistible (at this early point). He can take what he needs and leave the rest. As for leaving it lying around: who cares if he realises it and the past incident was a (counter-) manipulative (for the power of good for all) ploy. You can bet your a*se THAT fact won't be enough to conquer his inquisitiveness. He'll read it. Even if he claims he hasn't - he wlil have. ;-) (Freezing cold bucket of water in the face, anyone? :-))

My mum has told my dad the days he leaves to start his job is the day he leave the house and that he doesn’t not come back. I hoped he would seriously think about what happening/going to happen but he’s packing everything, which I don’t like. I casually left the print out, above on his desk just to try to get him to think about it more deeply, I really liked it, I think it will make him think. She also said, she can guarantee he won’t be away for three days a week, it will be a whole week where he’ll leave on Monday afternoon to be there to work on tues, wed, thurs and then he won’t travel back Thursday in rush hour he’ll go back Friday and he’ll work at the surgery Friday afternoons and Saturday mornings and Monday mornings too. So it’s actually 5 and a half days of working not seeing her or us. My dad is still not talking, i know he knows hes in the wrong, I can tell just by looking at him but he’s too stubborn to admit it. I think he’s really gone too far, I don’t think my mum will forgive him, which I think he knows. I’ve tried to tell him I wouldn’t judge etc but he’s still being aggressive and told me ‘he may as well resign from the surgery, move up near the hospital coz no one at home wants him’ . That really p*ssed me off/ upset me and my reaction towards that comment was not good . I know he said it for a reaction and he got one, I asked him if that’s what he was actually planning to do all along and he didn’t answer he isn’t went silent on me. He seems to think whatever my mum says to him, she’s speaking on my (and sibs) behalf too. I’m going to keep trying coz I don’t want him to move far away (told him that too) . I don’t think he means it. He def feeling sorry for himself and is working out of hours all over Xmas and in between working, he’s going to a friends house coz after spending most of the day arguing about Christmas Day and how it was going to work my mum told him she didn’t want him at home. I understand what he’s done isn’t right and why my mum is really angry with him but there is a small part of me that feels bad for him and makes me feel horrible almost sorry for him. coz I still want to spend sometime with him, and I will make sure I do - even after the comments he’s made - he might even talk! His dr lady friend - haven’t heard much more about her and I’m really hoping he won’t be staying with her in the week - coz that was the plan last time. I will find out, my foot will be going down right after Xmas. I did tell Tom, I just needed that day of head space, and he knew something was wrong. My mum has some how got her own way and Tom and family are coming for Christmas Day... not sure what happened to just inviting them round for drinks?! I don’t think I was part of this conversation when Tom and my Mum were talking about it, but he seems quite chilled about so I will try to be too. ******** Yeah aunty has practically moved in and she’s putting her house in the market after Xmas and moving her things into storage. She has been talking more about this with cousins and thankfully they are both talking to her now not that they are for her move. ************* I think I have managed to convince Holly with Counselling didn’t actually take that much persuading and she says she wants me in the first meet up :-D I’m quite excited to see what it’s going to be like ... if I’m allowed to be there. Slight problem is that she’s says she likes a boy at college when I advised the no dating ...so I think that will be my battle, not gettin her to go to Counselling. ***** Hmmmm met aunties friend in the pub... she agreed to let me and Tom just happened to be there and nah, he wasn’t a hit. Might be good looking but personality wise not good, he was slimy/creepy. Not sure what aunties doing talking to him and tom told her he was creepy, did I mention he’s very honest? But I think she listened to him as to why he didn’t like him. He kept saying things like ‘ooh. you both (aunty and me) have the same colour eyes...beautiful’ and then licked his lips, errrrrrrrrrr! And we, er don’t have the same eye colour ....thought she knew better! :-|

Yes, it's a very hard-hitting article...ironically, for how 'soft' it is. It's "If Only", spelled out...pain and helplessness in-motion. It should hit the spot. But - ah!... "My mum has told my dad the days he leaves to start his job is the day he leave the house and that he doesn’t not come back. I hoped he would seriously think about what happening/going to happen but he’s packing everything, which I don’t like." That's not a decision, that's an ultimatum... the rightful version of 'do it and the puppy gets it!' (with him the puppy). But the trouble is, it's also an ego-challenge, if you think about it. So that explains the packing. It's, I'll see your Five and Raise you Five. Bet you any money you like, he takes a loooooooooooooooooooong time over it. Long enough to hopefully frighten her (back) (more) and thereby help her along with cracking and taking it back. (Yeeah..."don't hold yer breath, luv" :-p. Your mother no doubt knows she would lose all respect for herself, were she to back down in the face of this latest stunt.) Give him time to come down and see sense. Most do. You just have a bit of a (yawn) wait, usually. He'll find some excuse to engage her in conversation or debate, whereupon - gosh, how did that happen! - the topic will end up turning to resurrecting the issue for another hashing-out. She'll forgive him if he stays because he'll then have shown he *wants* to be forgiven. Or maybe if he's gone only about a week or two before backing down and apologising, etc. All depends on where your mum's line in the sand is; everyone's is different. I still get the very strong sense that, whether for the first time or as a 'contract' update, they're fighting for what each of them see as a more suitable power division. "‘he may as well resign from the surgery, move up near the hospital coz no one at home wants him’ . That really p*ssed me off/ upset me and my reaction towards that comment was not good . " Fairenoughski. My own would have been a very loud, very wet, very long raspberry, prefixed with 'Aw' and suffixed with 'off'. And maybe a 'grow up, ya giant twazzock!' for good measure. He *is* being incredibly immature, isn't he. And always-always the picked-upon, despite he in fact started it *and* continued it. So that tells me he's in DefCon 2 *at least*. He could probably do with visiting one of his practise associates if he's so 'stuck' in this mindset that he believes he can't find his way out again and climb down, without ending up the 'loser' with copious egg on his face. But - more than that: In with the tone of self-pity was [wait for it] another morsel of threat to add to the pile (for thine messenger selfe to pass to his fayre maiden wyfe). So that's her upping his hand, followed by his upping his, followed by her upping hers, and him upping his. HER TURN! [rolls eyes] (I hope and presume you *didn't* pass it onto mum? If he wants the Marmalade, he can damn well ask her himself, eh, big boy like him.) I look forward to your foraging for more clues (or squeezing it out of him, lol - good luck with that one). My *worry*, however, is that he's subtly allowing this feud to stay on-the-boil as his excuse to go...FOR A WHILE. That, after all, is what men who are having an affair tend to do...They deliberately cause then stoke a fight to create the excuse to visit the mistress. Do you suppose that he's so over-cocky and confident about your mum's 'desperation' to keep him that she indeed would have him back if it happened soon enough after departure? However, that's just a worry, not something that matches the actions of [1] him pack-ING (rather than packed in 5 minutes flat) and [2] upping his counter-threat ante ("make me leave and I'll..."). Those are 'please don't chuck me out for-real!' noises/movements. So I don't think much of his Poker Face, then, do you? ********* So did Tom et al come yesterday? Her upping the invitation, colours the above analysis. It's an undertow message to your father to say, 'I'm SO not bothered and SO firm in my conviction this time, that I'm even capable of focusing on and functioning as-normal around the love-life of my eldest child (so take that, Mr Cocky-Pants!)'....All part of the Poker game in-play right now. Not saying, ONLY reason. Just her taking advantage of an intention that was already in existence (two for the price of one). Basically, your mum and Tom made a silent and knowing deal: I want Lily to take me and this relationship seriously in terms of being a lasting one + I want my daughter as much as possible (for her age/stage) 'settled' *and* a Poker aid / Deal! / Deal! So that's why you weren't consulted, heh-heh-heh. Never mind, if you actually objected to the idea, I'm sure you'd have made that apparent to all by now, eh (actions-actions). :-) Mum clearly is *very* resolute, Lils. So I'm not surprised dad's desperately and frantically trying to threaten her with various implements - first a gun, then chucking that down in frustration in favour of a dagger, and so on and so forth ("aargh, none of them are working - why not?!"...Answer: because she's not a push-over any more, duuh.). I envisage him trying each one at least twice each, possibly thrice...it's what your crisised idiots do. They - the normal but above-average selfish and self-important and/or self-unaware and emotionally inept - *basically*, Lily, act exactly like Narcissists (bar a few, very giveaway acts and sentiments as prove it but a temporary, situational-based state). And I don't suppose your mum's acting very attractively right now, either, in terms of how she goes about things and phrases things. So we're full-circle back to - "ding-ding, Round Two!" - A Couple Of Worked-Up Prats. She can't be blamed, though. It's too hard not to get sucked in and brought down to their level when it's something this monumentally important. What did Tom think? Did he see through the cracks of dad's posturing shield? ********* Well, I'm glad to hear that Auntie's sons are calming down, anyway. Here - are you and blister and bother the only truly sane and sorted ones, lately, or what? Or so I'm presuming. How are the sibs taking all of this? Let me guess - disgusted and disinterested in equal measure this time? ********** Re Holly: excellent (and she's passed a test! :-)) PS: I'm sure any worthwhile counsellor would understand Holly's nervousness and awkwardness and allow her that little luxury. If not, keeping phoning around until you find one who's more empathetic and in-tune with your ageset. "Slight problem is that she’s says she likes a boy at college when I advised the no dating" Remind her that she felt exactly the same way with the last creep and, again, that if she hasn't completed the de-sliming process because she hasn't given it enough time, then the sorts of men who are going to find her attractive - i.e. find a woman who's DOWN AND IN A BAD WAY attractive - are the ones who are looking deliberately, specifically and exclusively for a Less Than. I.e. PREDATOR. The chances of her *not* hooking up with another bad'un whist she's in emotional hospital, legs in traction, are so low as to be negligible. Which is a very long-winded way of 'doing a Mum' and telling her - not as a threat, but a conditional intention - do it and you'll be on your own because you can count me out. Have you helped her to Google something like, Narcissistic Boyfriend yet? She needs to see if he ticks all the boxes so that she'll be better able to appreciate how too-vulnerable she is to be even thinking about dating. You're going to have to be quite firm with her, you realise? Think of her as an addict who's trying to get you to agree to let her have 'just one more drink, it can't hurt, blah-blah'. Because that's exactly what she is right now, addicted to the drama her ex kept creating, or rather, the adrenaline, etc., that her brain produced and sent regularly around her system, once too often. It's Al Anon, Jim, but not as we know it. She needs to be alone and un-bothered for a decent period in order to remember that, actually, she's a bloody good catch and a lovely, kind-hearted woman whom, were she her own lover, would count herself damn lucky, thank-you very much!, but whom doesn't actually *need* a man to have fun or have any kind of life. She needs to learn to LIKE being single. And to have pride in her sensible self-care and abstinence. Because - trust me - that is the mindset needed to spur a man to have to prove himself beyond any reasonable shadow of doubt, whereby he eventually melts her defences (i.e. her laissez-faire-ness or ambiguity) and skepticism. It's this: I don't need you or any man to have a nice time, but feel free to change my mind (, bucko)! It's how Nature designed it. Got to give them the WHOLE marathon, not move their starting post to the midway point. As the woman, you can't come to the relationship *keen*, any more than you come to it secretly hating/resenting/fearing men. Warm, friendly, zen-like, OPEN TO BEING PERSUADED - sure. Keen and already raring to go and, therefore, willing to give them constant leg-ups and hall-passes, *no*. HEALTHY males have a need to enjoy proving their worth to a woman....hence it's said a man *wins* a woman's hand, and finds any under-estimation on her part insulting and off-putting. Only the lazy-minded, over-entitled likes Being Handed To On A Plate. Simple As/End Of / Diff/All the Diff. ...Yeah, maybe *do* sit on her, LOL. *However*! Here's an idea which I advise all Once-Bittens to do if they (or their ovaries/testes *really* can't abstain): the minute you agree to a second date with someone is the minute you should *commence* a course of counselling, whereby the counsellor agrees to be your Constant. That means they get let in on the ins and outs of the entire relationship, good and bad, week-in-week-out...the entire kit 'n caboodle. Not being soft on the lover like 'you' are, they're accordingly fit to judge with a healthy eye not only his health and progress but that of the relationship, on your behalf. They're your top-flight Jimminy Cricket. So there's always that if Holly insists and sneaks out after lights-out, so to speak. But don't let her work on you, make it clear that to go beyond mere 'there-there' style support requires her doing her bit to be sensible and survivalist...because this, like anything, takes teamwork; it's not you offering to take her entire workload off her hands and be her lackey. ********* Auntie's friend: He what? Licked his lips? Good grief, what 'How To Chat Up' books has HE been reading? But, yeah, that does sound *very* slimy, ugh. What do you mean, you thought SHE knew better re the eye colour? Que? Are you saying, she bought it and was tittering all girlie-like? Is she particularly into Greek Taverna waiters? :-p Anyway, who does he think he is - Little Red Riding Hood? :-D

My dad is still not wanting to talk, and he starts his new job next week. i have approched him twice when i thought he seemed to be in an ok mood and told him i want to try and see where hes coming from and wont judge, he shouts at me and tells me to go away and to stop leaving 'stupid' articles on his desk, so he clearly knows hes in the wrong. Dont really fancy being shouted at again so he can find out the hard way. He announced today that he's found somewhere to rent, which is 30 mins away, not five mins away like last time. His reasoning is coz its closer to the motorways/very slightly shorter journey. I like it how hes allowed to give us information on what hes doing but were not allowed to ask him anything, selfish git, it feels like hes cutting himself off from everyone. This news upset sis, she had been coping quite well but i think its the sudden change that worries her because she was like 'how am i meant to see you if youre going to live 30 minutes away?!' She told him he was horrible and stormed out of the room. Bro, is completely disinterested and disgusted by whats going on and his reaction was 'i'll probably be at my gfs house most weekends' and all my dad could think to do was lecture him on sex and pregnancy, bro is not stupid (and theyre not doing anything!) and his face just said 'whatever'. My mum at the moment is just voiding him unless he speaks to her and yeah her responses arent exactly attractive and shes quite cold towards him, but i dont blame her, shes just keeping busy, which is different to how she coped last time where shes couldn't do anything. Leech face has seemed to be replaced by nice friend and i think if she sees my dad she will say something to him coz shes quite feisty too, shes bit like another aunty. Yeah tom can see what happening but he thinks i (or someone) needs to confront my dad about his consultant friend coz nothing about her has been mentioned or if hes staying with her in the week like he was planning to last time. I don't really want to know. He has offered to be there if i feel like tackling my dad again coz he thinks hes less likely to shout if someone else is there...i dont think so. Yeah Tom and family did come round for xmas and coz everyone got on really well, Boxing Day too, was actually quite a good idea, it was a good distraction its would of been fun if it was just the five of us. Didn't see much of tom coz he did most of the cooking with aunty 'helping' apparently she kept trying to put alcohol into everything. Aunty was also really pleased coz both cousins, wife and two babies (think they also wanted to someone to entertain the two little people, (meee) ) actually turned up on Boxing Day as a surprise Yeah with I'm realising with Holly i do have to be quite firm, but thats ok! I did tell her google narcarristic boyfriend and she said yeah ok, and she didnt so i realised i had to sit her down because she wasnt going to do in in her own spare time! She has no interest in pyschology and trying to understand it but after googling i think its opened her eyes a bit coz she recognised all the traits. But shes saying the boy at college is NOTHING like the ex boyfriend hmmmmmmmm. I feel like i need to lock her away for New Year's Eve too...incase she goes to any party's coz her boy radar will be on.

LILS sorry about being out of the loop. Been down with a bit of the flu bug. Anyway HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Happy new year scopes :-)

I just lost everything I typed but had yet to send - puter didn't like something and shut down - aaargh! Scopes, I'm going to have to order a deletion of your 1:05 post and you'd (everyone) be well advised *never* to disclose over the internet any major jigsaw puzzle piece about yourself, such as when your date or month or even season of birth date, particularly when you've already given out quite a bit of unique information, that could be added to any dossier for the purposes of identity theft. So let me do that first...

Earwigo again.... (and congrats, Scopes, on the thing we're not mentioning). Your mum has the right attitude but isn't applying it. She shouldn't have been letting him stay these last couple of weeks, it should have been - "If you're that intent on going, despite I've spelt out the grave consequences - out!...*now*! This relationship is not your personal hotel or holding bay!". I believe he's not taking her ultimatum seriously because of that failure. This is my own attitude: 'You wannit, you wannit, do ya, do ya, huh, huh, really? THEN YOU CAN HAVE *ALL OF IT* and let's see how you like THEM apples, Sunshine!'. Very often when you give someone what they claim to want, they find out they actually didn't. Sooner you push them in the direction they insist on going in, sooner they want out and back. Never fear losing/loss or it'll hamper you to the point of you getting you the very thing you fear. Play her, "Gottalong withoutcha...before I metcha, gonna gettalong withoutcha now". Because it's true. Anyway, nobody but the myth-peddlars of this for-too-long sick society said *any* relationship - societally-(so-called)-sanctioned and -legalised or not - was a destination rather than an opportunity to grow and develop (which, when done simultaneously and matchingly, affords permanency). Doesn't matter how he felt about the "stupid article" - it went in, that was the point. I hope it does a million revolutions and itches him GOOOOD! (It will.) There's nothing stupid about that article. But right now there's everything stupid about him. Up his a*se and round the corner! (Sorry, I know he's your dad but he may as well just be chopping off his own head right now. And bleeding all over you lot.) Glad for Auntie that her kids came round (literally). Glad you're not listening to Holly's excuses in her quest to escape emotional work in preference to donning a human Elastoplast - the only response to her 'he's not like that', being, 'How the eff would YOU know!', you've known him all of 5 minutes - he's a multi-faceted human being with each and every facet having an enormous depth as takes YEARS to "know", not a damn twig! - and your judgement hasn't exactly been ticketyboo of late, now, has it, or you wouldn't be in the position you're in of NEEDING a human Elastoplast (duuh)'. (It doesn't make any sense and does not reflect reality so it's avoidance-based rubbish, ber-bom.) I'm very, very angry at your father. Note how work (and god knows what else) gets all the respect in terms of convenience of closeness. But note his past, frankly opposite of NPD, sensible behaviour as well. He's a 'temporary' Narc - Mid Life Crisis, brain overloaded, animal wounded and behaviourally in Me-Me-Me/You Cease To Exist or Matter mode (the wounded animal cannot afford to consider the feelings and needs of other neighbouring animals rather than tend to himself or he'll 'die' doing so). Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Your mother must be DEVASTATED! But, as I say, she's erroneously showing that she harbours hope that he'll come round at the 11th hour, by not having chucked him out on his ear already, like she threatened to. There are two mating rule books - one for the normal and healthies and another for your situationally/temporarily Cluster Bs (anything other than temporary renders any relationship ultimately and inevitably futile). The rule for the former is: s/he who cares most and equally/reciprocally, wins. The latter is: s/he who [seems to] cares least, wins. She needs to live and focus on her own life, now. And then see how she feels when (and if) he wakes up again, gets back to functional, sophisticated human thinking and operating. That's all she can do and is actually the very best thing TO do. 'Never make someone your priority whom is not making you theirs'. A rescue mission takes two people: your mum is proffering her arm to he who has fallen down a muddy hole. And he's merrily batting it away. Fine, then - stay there and get yourself out! She'll adapt. Because it's hard-wired into her programme. She can't not. It'll just be painful for a while. Try your best to support her through this worst (and lil blister), all of you, on the practical and emotional level (if you don't want her getting sucked down into a hole as well). Men who behave like this hobble their women against their usual mothering capability to the point of, too all intents, motherlessness...and then the kids risk ending up infected....Pass The Rotten Parcel around and down the line to the next generation. It's no different to a long-lasting virus and treating, as in removing, the CAUSE, not just a run of symptoms. I see where Tom's coming from. And it's not about whether your father shouts or not, it's about pointing to the elephant and seeing whether dad can explain its existence or not. As well, how he reacts. People get all unnecessary for two main reasons: [1] it's true and has hit a nerve, [2] taking offence at being misunderstood to such an insulting degree. But this is the marital boat, first and foremost, with an NPD virus in it, meaning, a different rulebook... and your mother has already offered her arm. If he won't take hers at such a Crunch Time then any lesser measure is a case of peeing into the wind. It would just be revealing to get a reaction out of him when confronted with the suspicion. HOWEVER...At the very least he is cheating on your mother with his career - FACT! - when she and you guys - the extensions of their whole relationship - should take precedence as Nature insists, over anyone or anything, or nothing else can work right, either. I'm so sorry for you, though. :-( Has he left already? If he has, the Fat Lady has started to sing. Because, going by how your mum's behaving already, I seriously doubt that by the time he does wake up, she'll give a single sh*t any more, either way. There is being disrespected, denigrated, undermined, belittled, treated like a no-mark, etc., and then there's being TRAMPLED over as if one is an object with no feeling and of zero importance when the opposite should be true. So it all relies from here on in on her. Keep her strong, all of you, and then see if, by maintaining that, you can even get her to the point of seeing the giant positives to not having him around and treating it like a respite and holiday both. A chance for her to discover herself again. I'll bet she barely has a clue who she is any more. She's on a growth path, no doubt about it. Hurts at the time, but delivers dividends in the end, WHEREBY, if asked 'knowing what you now know - would you go through that nightmare again to get to where you now are?', the answer is, GOD YES! Give a flower a bigger pot, more water, more Baby Bio and that's when it grows in size and BLOSSOMS. The journey there just isn't that nice, that's all. She's got to keep the faith that whatever happens, she'll be anywhere between just as fine as before or - usually - WAY BETTER. And happier/fuller/richer. Growing pains. Usually a growth pattern such as this happens imperceptibly bit-by-bit. But a growth spurt is hard to ignore for its violence of rate thus sensations. But being on the road to blossoming is the prize. This is *his* issue, not hers. Let him learn that giant life lesson on his own time and sensation. She needs to keep right out of his crosshairs. She can wait and see if he recovers himself in time. But not actively and certainly not where he can see that's what's going on, feels reassured, emboldened, and does as he likes for however long he likes because he's got that second/back-up option always waiting in the wings if things - his way - don't work out.

(PS forgot to apologise for my long posting absence: back-to-back stomach complaints, starting with Salmonella poisoning, oh joy (not). Still poorly but was aware of how long I'd been absent and felt up to showing my face for a bit, hence... Might disappear again (hope not) but will do my best, just need to bear with, as per.)

Ooo my Soulmate you take care of that Salmonella poisoning as it can get quite serious. Btw thank you for your concern and protecting my identity here. However I'm afraid that my real name date of birth etc are splattered all over social media "Facebook"

(You're welcome. But, well, if I were you, I'd remove all such sensitive information toute suite. If other short-sighted ignoramuses want to leave themselves and their wealth and assets totally open like that, that's their biz.)

Yeah he's left :-(. He started his new job last week, he didn't bother to call and text me or sibs whilst he was away...might of been a good thing to do! i dont think it had actually propperly sunk in until he had actually gone cuz i had really distracted myself over xmas and new year. Auntie tried to talk some sense into him again before he went but she got the same responses as i did, only she argued back a lot more and was really, really blunt with him pointing out the obvious as to what was going to happen if he went. Still didn't work and he was really rude to her, he's now effed up any relationship with her because she's now said she doesn't want anything to do with him and from now on my mum is her priority. I think the reason why he's not taking my mum seriously is because in the past she's sometimes hasn't always followed anything through that shes said shes going to do, but shes already started the ball rolling on divorcing him and i think it is too late if he does wake. He's also really isolating himself, coz he doesn't have many friends, the ones he does have are through my mum, he's got no sibs and grandparents are not here anymore, so he only has me and sibs. I can tell my mum is deverstated but shes not really showing it, not to me and sibs anyway, she might be being different alone with auntie, but she's being more practical where as last time she didn't cope. Sibs don't want anything to do with my dad at the moment, he wanted us all to visit him this weekend and they both refused, I wasn't going to go either but somehow (still not sure how) tom managed to convince me to go, he came too, He reasons were my dad wouldnt expect us to and if my dad was feeling vulnerable in his new home all on his own he might want to talk/listen. Didnt start off well because the place hes renting wasn't 30 mins away, like he said it was, it was 50 :-I, I know its only twenty minutes more, I've calmed down a bit about this now, but what else is he not going to be honest about?! grrrr. It was the first thing I tackled him on when I saw him and he knew he was in the wrong :-@. I did tell him that if he thinks im driving 50 mins every weekend with sibs too, he think again, he can drive to see us. Tom said he thought I was going punch him and get back in the car and drive off again...might of been tempted at the time but yeah talk about new job and distance being a priority. Tom was kind of right my dad did want to talk, but only about how sorry he was feeling for himself and how hes worried the sibs have disowned him, coz they didn't come with me and tom. I dont think they have, i just think they're really hurt amd angry with him, like everyone else is. Had a go at him for not calling texting but other then that really didnt have it in me to try and get him to talk again when the last few days have been quite sh*t. There was one moment (ive been thinking about this quite a bit) where he seemed to be a bit secective and he was on the phone and he thought he was alone, i walked into the room and whoever he was talking to he just hung up on whoever he was talking to and I said 'did you just hang up on someone? '. He looked almost panicked and was like 'er, oh erm no, i said bye' hmmm. Could of been anyone, was weird. Sis has apparently told her bullies to back off she said she said it quite aggressively and since they havent really bothered her. She surprised me coz the night before school started again she was crying saying she didnt want to go to school coz of them and then she did that, thinks those tears were not coz of them! To stop holly going out on New Year's Eve i had to invite her and meg round and they stayed over, tom was a bit p*ssed off, he wasnt invited it was a girls night, he got lots of offers to go out with friends so I didnt feel that bad! She's also gone and found a cousellor by her self, didnt think shed do this i thought i was going to have to have to help her. I think shes wanted counselling for a for a long time shes possibly just beeen too scared. Hope you're feeling better soon!

He's actually gone and crossed the line, noted. Failure to contact within an entire - let's not forget, ground-shaking, shock-inducing - week, noted. Inevitable consequences spelled out yet failing to affect by She Who Normally Affects, Ratcheted-up, noted. Desperation translating into Blunt As Hell but to no avail, noted. Abandoning his wife and family only one week after Christmas, noted. Auntie washing her hands of him/admitting defeat and finally forced to take a side, noted. Him 'killing off' their relationship via unwarranted rudeness in reaction to her warranted bluntness, noted. "I think the reason why he's not taking my mum seriously is because in the past she's sometimes hasn't always followed anything through that shes said shes going to do, but shes already started the ball rolling on divorcing him and i think it is too late if he does wake." Yup. She hesitated. Showed a couple of 'weaknesses' (Hope and Fear). I repeat, she should have chucked him out the minute he admitted he'd accepted the job and intended to make it real by honouring the start date. She acted too late to prevent. So now her only option is cure (only if she's even interested, now/at this point). It's never too late. Not Too Late is relative to How Hard It Grovels and Begs and Promises In Blood. "He's also really isolating himself, coz he doesn't have many friends, the ones he does have are through my mum, he's got no sibs and grandparents are not here anymore, so he only has me and sibs." And a new woman with her own social and family circle. Sorry. But that's what his behaviour fits with, now. He thinks he can get to sample her and a different/new life and, if it doesn't work out or suit, crawl back to your mum. Because she hesitated for ages, showed she was waiting for what HE would do as her basis for deciding what she herself would (finally) do. That's her letting him lead and control, being reactive instead of proactive...very reassuring stuff. ***** She's not being different with Auntie. She'll still be busy being in shock, anger and denial. IOW, it hasn't really hit her yet. (Wait for it....) Anyway - already started the ball rolling, HOW? What are you and your m'colleagues (sibs) doing in terms of gestures that show you care and are concerned and 'there for her'? Have you started emptying the dishwasher without being asked, tidying up after yourself, running the hoover round, making her cups of tea without even asking, that sort of thing? She needs to know you guys empathise with her from seeing who's in the role of right versus in the role of wrong, here. It's vitally important and will help her massively to stay strong, clear-sighted and relatively stress-free. Refusal to see him is great but doesn't count because it could be being done for their own sakes and feelings first and foremost. You can't, however, argue with an emptied dishwasher or 'automatic' cup of tea, those 'pay' her but 'cost' the donor-maker. This is about you giving her bits and pieces of your own strength and resolve and adherence to normality/normal routines in the form of kind and selfless acts and deeper investment in each of your relationship with her, it's how those things work. Oh, and - guess what? It's sparkly card time: We love and support you all the way, Mum. Was Tom curious to see a man in mid-life monster mode, do you suppose? Scratch that - just read that you weren't expected. It's called, let's see if we can surprise him with his pants down. ;-) But I like Tom's smooth, creative sales job [smirk]. Next time, remember this is your family, your issue, your call. 50 mins away, not practically half that (, *actually*), noted, + Minimising lie, noted. Confidence in his ability to function in a brand new job despite the still-fresh carnage in his plain sights and then just over his shoulder, noted. You do not choose to go ahead with taking a job if it means in the process having to lose someone you still consider to be the love of your life and your family. You do not. So this isn't ABOUT a job, is it. It's about resigning or taking a haiitus from his marital relationship as he steps smoothly, without any inconvenience and hardships of a 'masculine' nature, from her lilypad to A. N. Other's lilypad. With barely even any jolt. Smooth as silk. He's been planning this and setting it up for a while. And she was pleased, hence content to 'disappear quietly from the scene' and stay put and keep completely silent...patiently waiting... It's her. The one who 'dropped in' over mum's birthday weekend. And her lilypad comes complete with a replacement job, no less!, that's close to her (soon to be jointly his) house. A whole replacement life. See it? Yeah, you do, hence edging towards aggressing (punishing) him and telling him he can basically prove in-motion that he gives a sh*t about you three any more, either. If you *had* socked him and flounced, no-one would have blamed you. "but only about how sorry he was feeling for himself" Yeah, now I want to punch him. And no, it wasn't 'anyone'. It was her. You know it was. Who ELSE but a secret person with secret meaning to him would he have been acting like that over? And why couldn't it wait until you and Tom had gone home? Answer: letting you in on what's going on, passive-aggressively *or* giving you the impression there's someone going on....to relay to mum and panic her into trying to beg him back while there's still time and the Other Woman or Pretend Other Woman hasn't yet managed to get irreversibly under his skin. We know he uses you as interpreter and messenger. So that's why it strangely wasn't too easy to wait until you couldn't witness, interpret, nor report a thing (bar the almost double-the-minutes distance away). ***** I think blister's tears were a cocktail: upset over this mum-dad situation *and* dread of having to do what she hates - confront/rear up - in case her monster runs riot and refuses to get back into the cage (so there's another one who fears the darker, more animal side of her own humanity). Bet, being at the end of her tether, she really felt like pulverising them. It obviously crossed over in her voice to the point of equalled a pulverising. GOOD. That's the way to do it: [a] 100% ignore [b] 100% opposite of ignore (and better than they could ever opposite-of-ignore). In other words, she let them hear her killer instinct and they responded non-suicidally. Holly: well done. :-) Can understand Tom's sense of insult, though, what with it having been a main Lovers' Night (he didn't want to be with friends, he wanted to be with you). Have you made it up to him yet? Suggest you do. "She's also gone and found a cousellor by her self, didnt think shed do this i thought i was going to have to have to help her. " She came across something, NPD reading/viewing material-wise, something that finally put a firework up her bum and - "per-CHOOO!"...cartoon dust amidst a lot of screaming in fright all the way to the couch. Basically. That, married to the increased sense of security and support network, courtesy of your having reassuringly made her Star of NYE over even your boyfriend, having fortified her confidence. You're not a multi-tasker, eh. LOL In that case, you'll have to do takesie-turnsies with "handing out the goods" in very rapid fashion, so rapid that it appears multiply done, LOL. I am feeling a little better, yes, thanks...and then relapsing again hours later or the next morning. It's the Norovirus, doc said....it lingers (after having moved, oy yeu say, DOWNWARDS). Cramp-grip-cramp-grip.... Eat out of desperate starvation and then pay for it later. And it's exhausting and depressing and makes me want to self-isolate majorly - think cat that slinks to the bottom of the garden and hides behind the garden shed (sitting on a tiny loo, LOL). God knows why or how I'm laughing but... time to go back to bed (I only came down for water! :-D) You're not the only one who knows how to distract 'her'self from 'her' misery, eh. ;-) Although, I'm betting you'd swap your situation for my Norovirus any day. Anyway. Fat Lady has her sheet music out and is doing vocal exercises. I'm sorry but ultimately not sorry. Same play, different actors. I know, repeat KNOW, that you lot are going to be anywhere between same-but-different and soaring to new, happier heights. You're going to be utterly fine and will cease feeling not fine in about 6 months or quite possibly far, far less. He's not. This affair is a relationship foundation that consists of lies, duplicitous-ness, lies to each other (par for the cheating course), losing the ability to ever believe a word they themselves say or vow (loss of self-trust and -like).... Just imagine a house foundation made of clay and sh*t. The house will sink like it was built on quicksand and those two will end up either abandoning house or going down with it and living long-term that way. Desperately Unhappyville, here they come. It's called, committing suicide the psychological way. Has your mum visited a divorce solicitor yet, and instructed them to raise a divorce petition to serve on him toute suite? She'd better. Or he'll carry on merrily rather than panic, think twice and do a U-ey while there's still time and scope. ............Hmm! Maybe that's secretly, subconsciously how she wants it or concedes *should* want it??? Given the literally unbelievable level of idiotic self-destruction your dad's showing he's capable of, I'm going to bet that's a big fat YES.

My mum has gone to a divorce solicitor, l kind of wished she had gone the right way about it coz then things might of been different. My dad was in more contact this week, sibs are still refusing to speak to him, so at the moment I’m the only one who is speaking to him. Sibs don’t understand why I’m talking to him, but for me, I know he’s messed up big time and he has been dishonest but I would find it worse/ more stressful if I didn’t have contact with him. Does that sound weird? They seemed to think it didn’t make sense. It doesn’t mean I’m being nice to him, or like him (not easy disliking him either!) or I’m less angry. I don’t I've been this angry before. Yeah, I knew it was his dr friend on the phone, I just didn’t want to admit it and it bugged me that I didn’t question him more at the time coz I went home thinking about it. I’ve had quite a few hard conversations with him this week, where I told him he needs to be honest with me and that I feel like I don’t trust him/ don’t really know who he is anymore, which woke him up a little, shame I can’t wake him up fully! He is staying with ‘dr friend’, in the week who very conveniently live ten minutes away from the hospital they work at but I knew he wouldn’t be staying in a hotel. Apparently shes more then just a friend now too :-(, told him I didn’t want to know anymore. Really couldn’t care less about her/them and it’s Too hard to hear. it’s like I have ask the right questions to get answers because otherwise he won’t tell me. Well I’m quite good at house work :-) . Er did come home to my mum blitzing the house like a mad person and the only way I got her to stop was by making her tea. Sibs are not so good house work, more sis then bro she’s so messy! But I have told them they need to help more and aunty heard me and backed me up, which is good becsuae otherwise they think I’m being bossy and argue back. Went out for dinner with my mum too, something we’ve been meaning to do for a while, didn’t think she was going to be up for it but she was and it was nice, talked about biz, talked about Tom (def needed to talk about him, that’s below) and my dad. She’s says she feels like she been through all the sadness and upset the first time round and in Counselling but does realise it will hit her again at some point. Like the other day aunty started looking for her own place, locally, and my mum didn’t take that well, so I think when aunty does move out that will be hard for her. Unlike my dad, my mum wants me to ask questions and she shows concern. Ok, cards are on the way for her :-). Yeah, I have made it up to Tom, I know I fluffed up and he wanted to spend new year with me, I think he actually wanted to plan something for us to do. He was more angry with me then I realised :-/ and told me he needs me to show him that I care a bit more. apparently I don’t seem as bothered (he gave a examples) and he puts all the effort in and considers me first before he does anything or sees friends ... I didn’t take that well, and still don’t think competely true. I took it the wrong way coz it felt like a bit of a threat, even though he said it wasn’t. A bit oversentive atm and it feels like whenever he confronts me about something his timing is always sh*t. That was a fun discussion. Anyway thankfully ages ago I booked for us to go away and on the last weekend before he went back to uni after Xmas, this weekend and had a good time. I know I shouldn’t stop there and need to be more considerate :-/.

She'll do whatever her instincts lead her to do - berbom. I repeat, you don't want her re-accepting someone she can no longer respect thus no longer love; that wouldn't do anyone any good, in fact, it would backfire majorly. It's got come from him, really. But yes, she could have speeded UP the whatever inevitable. However, she's probably not got any frame of reference for this madness, hence instinct having to take over. The trouble with gut instinct, however, is that Fear does a very good impression of it, meaning you *have* to wait to see whether the urge not only remains but grows (= instinct; fears dissipate). But I'll tell you this for nothing: compared to most women, she's actually doing REALLY WELL! She must be where you get your 'stronger stuff' from, eh. :-) Don't be too hard on her. Actually, don't be hard on her at all - remove all pressures wherever possible. Because - forget appearances, she is utterly devastated and traumatised. Take how you'd feel were it were Tom and times it by at least 100. I'm just impressed that she's still functioning! Nope, doesn't sound weird, just one type of Normal from the Normal Reactions menu in this here 'restaurant' (they've chosen the Chicken & Chips and you've gone for the Snails). Each to their own. You want to know the whys and wherefores because this stuff has greater and more important relevance to you at your age/stage than your younger sibs, I imagine. Plus there's your budding professional need-to-know. Why not put it this way: "I want to know what the hell is wrong with him lately, which requires 'interviewing' him (which I can report back to you). Plus, not being rude, but - I've had a relationship with him for considerably more years so it's harder for me to just let go in one fell swoop. (That ought to do it?) You don't have to dislike HIM, you can just dislike his, lately, sh*tty attitudes and behaviour. After all, he spent longer being a nice man than being a d-head so it's hardly fair at this early point to treat him according to the lesser portion, is it. I mean, he's obviously not well, is he, think about what he's done to you all and himself. He's set off a nuclear bomb in the middle of his own life and all that he's spent decades working hard to amass. Plus, last time I looked - he's not your husband. ;-) If he becomes the same degree as Sh*tty Dad, THEN you can 'hate' him (you're allowed, it's a part of the stab-wound's healing process...the haemoglobin, if you like). If you'd questioned him, he'd only have lied. You don't need to question him, do you - that phonecall and how he behaved 'told' you. He knows you know, anyway...he saw to it you'd translate that whole scenario without much problem (I mean, it *is* very distinct behaviour if you think about it?). That's what I was saying: how hard *is* it to say nothing but, 'I'll have to call you back as I've got guests'? That's what a body does if they don't want their secret getting out. Nope, he wants mum to know what he's up to. Again, it's him trying to scare and pressure her into buying him back before stocks of Mr Wonderful - which are going fast - run out! In other words, this other woman's been massaging his ego like nobody's biz and his ego has been powerless to resist believing that deliberate press. Whether he wants to [a] force her to endure this situation and thereby inevitably run out of the steam needed to keep caring and thereby end up keeping his wife *and* his mistress or [b] doesn't actually want the mistress over your mum but wants to provoke her into doing the begging back to save his face or [c] ultimately wants B but not before he's had a bit of a 'marital fidelities holiday', first, we can't know yet....just a case of watching that space (and yes, waiting for the admissions or clues and indicators to inexorably reveal themselves in whoopsie-daisies fashion - their guilty consciences and shame force them keep leaking dirt here and there like secret-tunnel-digging convicts disposing of earth by letting it drizzle out of their trouser-leg in the exercise yard). What do you mean exactly by 'woke him up a little' - how so? What was his precise reaction? PS: You can tell him to be honest with you till you're Blue in the face, Lils. He won't. He's in duplicitous and dishonest, 'every man for himself' mode, him versus the world. Poor you. :-( But she was never a friend, that was never her agenda, her and her 'more-impressive-job carrot'. Shame it hasn't occurred to this woman, how she alone didn't constitute carrot enough and what that means, eh. But she doesn't care. This isn't actually a relationship, let alone a friendship, it's a deal to partner up because they could tell their agendas to act out their childhood and adult-life sh*t and nuke themselves matched perfectly....a razing-by-fire expedition 'business'/accompaniaments deal first and foremost, you betcha. People who *actually* want to build a home, as well as one that can last longer than 5 minutes, don't tend to build it on poo, clay and quicksand, I think you'll find. It's a temporary shack. Lopsided and dangerously unstable already. Here - are you saying you have to ask the question but then he labours it with more detail than you need, including over-personal? RSVP - mucho importante! What about your mum? Do I take it SHE'S known 'all along' (recently) that he's been cheating on her? Or are you telling me he's informing her for the first time through you? RSVP. ******** Tell me, Lils: when was the first time you started to notice your dad's sense of entitlement had grown all out of proportion like this, whereby it's culminated into his thinking that whatsoever he wants means everything and sod everyone else, and somehow *deserves* to take a mistress (and still expect his kids (yourself, secret interrogator, excepted) to want anything to do with he who has stabbed their mother with a 12-inch and then done it a second time while newly twisting it)? ******** Oh, I'm SO glad and relieved to hear your mum blitzed the house! That tells me all I need to know: she's on the road to ultimately being absolutely FINE, Lils. :-) And well done for the cup of hug. And - the way you're being (feeling the pain but doing it anyway, including giving the kids a talk) confirms the same about you. :-) Again - he's not. And that's what he wants, apparently (- It's Cutting and Drug Overdosing, Jim, but not as we know it.) "didn’t think she was going to be up for it but she was" Tick! Could Auntie hold off getting her own place for a bit? For the victim, if there's still 'two of you' in the house it can disguise and/or minimize and cushion the cavernous gap and let you absorb the shock in more handle-able baby doses. And she needs that so THAT she can keep functioning so well. (Talk with Auntie time?) ********** I think Tom meant, show you put him first. Remind him you do - overall, but that sometimes life demands you switch your focus to your other important relationships - your long-term best friends, meaning, your partner has to 'sit in the backseat of the car' for a few of the journeys. Saying that - how many NYEs had you and he had together at this point? FYI, when a man starts 'complaining' that he does more work than you when it comes to 'walking up the uphill high street', it means he wants to take the relationship higher/deeper and is too impatient to let you and your littler legs take their own time catching up to him. Tell him the Situation Normal dating rulebook doesn't exactly apply here because a whole load of disruption crashed in recently. But I expect that's what he's worried about... that change will chain-react onto you and you - who knows? - might, could, possibly (eek) start to feel differently about him and/or get in with some new people (circumstantial Likes attracting) as could lead to him losing you, aaaandddd............-!! sorry, fell asleep with boredom there for a minute, LOL. He's insecure, feeling like he's more into you than you are to him. Again. But at least it's normal-human level. "A bit oversentive atm" Well, if you weren't, I'd think something was wrong with you and yell for Matron! Tom hasn't got a clue how it feels to have your parents not only divorcing but after one of them stabbing the other and putting them into Intensive Care, that's all this is. So you're going to have to be more transparent with your feelings when you're around him and save the stiff-upper-lip and rippling muscles for your mum. Have a good old sob and make sure for me that you snot all over his favourite jumper while you're at it - yeah? ;-) Wait up - scratch that for a min: "whenever he confronts me about something his timing is always sh*t." Lily, are you trying to tell me that Tom tends to kick you whenever you're down? Or was use of the word 'always' an upsets-based exaggeration that should have read 'occasionally'? You don't 'need to be' nuffink. Your family's breaking up. And in the worst way/for the worst reason possible. Jeez - tell him to have a pigging heart and give you a s*dding break! I mean, there is alerting you to the fact he would like more commitment and kingly treatment from his queen, and then there's using that opportunity to slide some resentment and power-playing under the door. If that's the case then - ignore-ignore-ignore and just say, 'Oh, sorry - absolutely - I will from now on!' [without saying WHAT you will, LOL] whilst inwardly chuckling at your ability to 'go floppy on the supermarket floor' when called-for. (Because sometimes, it is. And this is one of those 'sometimes'.) Yeah, all he's really doing is 'Look-at-me-Look-at-me!...fawn over me again!'. Mesuspects you over-spoiled him with your level of non-stop attention at the start of the relationship - yes? And poor baby's taking the fact you're (NO, SURELY NOT?!) somewhat distracted, personally. Yep. Ignore and play. Once he's had his period he'll be perfectly fine again. (:-p)

Yeah, my mum recently knew and she’s know of Her as my dad old friend from med school. she told my dad that he had to tell me and sibs, and she even offered to be there but he didn’t take her up on the offer and didn’t bother to tell us straight away instead he left it. My mum ended up having to tell sibs coz they weren’t talking to him and also he didn’t make the effort and my mum said she was prepared to have him round whilst he told us.. Sis has decided she wants to see Dad, didn’t think it would take her long for her to want to do this and she started speaking to him and asked if she could see him this weekend coming and he told her he’s staying up north which upset her, think she felt like he should come back. So I called him and he was really sh*tty with me saying that sis can’t just click her fingers when she decides to see and speak to him and why is it that it’s ok for me to go away at the weekends and not him and that sometimes he’s going to spend weekends with Gf. That really got to me coz everyone is upset and getting back home and he decides to spend a weekend with her when it’s still raw for everyone. I’m going to carry on working at him on this. Grrr. Yep, I have to ask him questions and he does go into detail and a bit too much. He tried to talk to me about dr friend the other night and went into too much detail. I am getting curious about her, don’t want to meet her I’m just interested who my dad has replaced my Mum with and left his family for. I don’t think I’ve ever met her but she can’t be a nice person to have an affair with a married man who she knows has a family. I would say I noticed a change in him end of nov/dec, he went a bit distant, started to do his own thing and stopped trying with my mum and everyone else again and then i got more worried when they started arguing more. I still need to talk to aunty about her moving out, I don’t feel ready for her to go either, even though I know she’s not going to go far. I think she thinks she’s giving my mum a bit of tough love and moving out will help my mum get used to being on her own without my dad, so she gets used to the change. My dad also called her an ‘interfering old b**ch’ when they argued before he left and that might of made her think she was getting in the way of something when all she was doing was helping but I think she’ll listen to me. As much as he empathises Tom doesn’t have any idea what it’s like. The only person in tom family who has experience with divorce is his Mum who been sending me nice texts :-). Her parents divorced when she was a teenager and before Toms Dad she was married and ex husband had an affair with a neighbour, she said she was pleased she didn’t have kids with him. I should of put occasionally, I don’t think he means to, I think he thinks it’s the right time and it’s not. He just need to check. Two NYEs since being with him, if it was he first one I would of put him first but Holly would of got with college boy, so had to do something :-/. . ‘Have a good old sob and make sure for me that you snot all over his favourite jumper while you're at it - yeah? Winking’ Ha I did his t shirt was nice and wet :-) was a long time coming coz I’ve only really got upset when my dad left and then I just bottled it up. I haven’t been very transparent with him, I use him more as a distraction. Had a bit of a crap day yesterday where just annoying things happened like car not working which made me late for college, then I got an essay back and my tutor comment was ‘I know you can do better, try again’ with no pointers on how to improve it, he likes us to really think without much help, I thought it was ok. Also wasn’t looking forward to tom going bk to uni. Small things but i felt more stressed by them. Tom only had to ask what was wrong with my car and I lost it. He also didn’t know about the sh*t conversation with my dad (that was playing on my mind too) and he was quite angry with him when usually he holds back. Tea and choc are also a good temp fix :-)

"Yeah, my mum recently knew and she’s know of Her as my dad old friend from med school. she told my dad that he had to tell me and sibs, and she even offered to be there but he didn’t take her up on the offer and didn’t bother to tell us straight away instead he left it. My mum ended up having to tell sibs coz they weren’t talking to him and also he didn’t make the effort and my mum said she was prepared to have him round whilst he told us.." - How recently? Please can you try to be more specific and precise from here on in regarding timings ('timing is everything')? - (Yes, I know she knew OF her from before, but I mean, knew she'd become his mistress.) - Oh, *did* she tell him. How helpful of her. Know this: It's common for the bored-of-waiting mistress to sneakily machinate and manipulate a situation, where, either the cuckolded spouse too easily finds out what's been going on or the cheating spouse folds under her pressure to tell or somehow reveal. So either she's incredibly impatient or, the opposite, incredibly patient BUT ONLY UP TO A POINT (meaning, pretty long-term mistress - longer than assumed/believed - finally starting to crack). Let's hope it's the former - although, time will reveal all, as I say. - OFFERED TO BE THERE? WTF?!? To watch you basically all get devastated and humiliated?! How DARE she! What is she - a human vulture? Although - how do you know she did, who told you that? I don't doubt he's in Coward mode, BUT...If it came from his mouth alone, then, bear in mind from now on that you ought believe only whatever comes from a trustworthy/healthy source and/or can be verified by actual evidence or first-hand witnessing - yes? Mistresses are often pulled in specifically, or duringtime secretly used, as scapegoats, themselves having first been fooled by the 'my wife doesn't understand me' type of line, replete with the man making out he's just a poor wickle boy who can't handwle it, "mew-mew, help me mummy!" (as triggers motherly nurturing instinct with behaviour to-suit - particularly in women with ticking biological clocks who've yet to have their first or can't have them and need a 'live dolly'). In these cases, the mistress is *almost* as much the cheater's victim as the spouse (and/or have anger/resentment or jealousy/competitive issues with certain types of their own gender, rendering them overly manipulable). Put it this way: if an alcoholic or other drug-addict (typically) tried to make out that he wouldn't drink/consume if he/she/a situation didn't KEEP MAKING him, you wouldn't automatically accept that self-diagnosis of he-the-already-provably-unreliable-source, would you? Same principle here, Lils. Take *everything* he says or claims from now on, with a pinch of salt. Even *if* this particular individual statement proves or is already proven to be true. If it does/is, that's another symptomatic kettle of fish entirely so - RSVP. ********** "Sis has decided she wants to see Dad, didn’t think it would take her long for her to want to do this and she started speaking to him and asked if she could see him this weekend coming and he told her he’s staying up north which upset her, think she felt like he should come back. So I called him and he was really sh*tty with me saying that sis can’t just click her fingers when she decides to see and speak to him and why is it that it’s ok for me to go away at the weekends and not him and that sometimes he’s going to spend weekends with Gf. That really got to me coz everyone is upset and getting back home and he decides to spend a weekend with her when it’s still raw for everyone. I’m going to carry on working at him on this. Grrr." + "Yep, I have to ask him questions and he does go into detail and a bit too much. He tried to talk to me about dr friend the other night and went into too much detail. I am getting curious about her, don’t want to meet her I’m just interested who my dad has replaced my Mum with and left his family for. I don’t think I’ve ever met her but she can’t be a nice person to have an affair with a married man who she knows has a family." - Oh, god, your poor little sister. :-( What a blow ...what a hugely hurtful snub. (Petty revenge for her own snubbing, no matter that hers was justified and understandable?) At her tender, 'crossroads' age, that can have long-term effect. Please help her to understand it's *not* personal *at all* and bears zero reflection on her, her desirability as a daughter, a female, etc. Consider him temporarily insane and emotionally no more socially intelligent than an INFANT, Lils. Tell her to imagine him around about that age and feel the click....feel it explain all of his current, stupid and immature choices in behaviour. In fact, be warned: you're going to find yourself asking HOW OLD IS HE - FIVE?!, quite a lot for a while, I imagine. Warn your mum and brother too, or, better yet, start researching into the mind of a cheater so that you can forewarn and forearm them *now* about things that haven't yet happened/been said but which potentially could or highly likely will. Similar to your Narcissistic spectrum, the cheater switches into a (rather nasty and infantile) mindset with a psychological behavioural pattern all its own to match (including, typically, demonising the mistress to the family while demonising the spouse to the mistress - deliberately so that they themselves get 'forgotten' in the ensuing 'cat-fight', thereby escaping blame and consequence for what were *their* actions. Remember: at any point - were she the pursuer - he could - were he still in his right mind (assuming he ever was?) - have said, 'I'm sorry, but I'm married and, even though it's not a happy one at present - I could *never* do that to my wife and family so we'll have to cease contact, even as just friends, until such time as my marriage is back to full strength / until after I'm divorced and single, whereby our then getting involved romantically becomes appropriate'....or words and sentiments to that effect.) - Of *course* he should have come back. He should be reassuringly showing all three of you that his divorce will not alter things between he and you all that much or as little as humanly possible. But that, of course, takes a certain state of health-based wherewithal. And, clearly, that's not him right now. I mean, look at all the evidence so far - right? - I can 'see' where you yourself are because you're in certain areas and ways judging him as if he's still a 'legitimate' person (said wherewithal). He's not. And that's what you will start to be 'forced' to accept and adjust to (until such time as he wakes up to himself). I repeat: first and foremost, this is self-harm / addiction, Jim, just not as we (you) know it. (Now you know the main reason behind his irritation at you for that "whoops"-warning aka wake-up article, don't you. See it now?) - Yes, it's still raw. Too raw for salt to be rubbed into your wounds. He really is deaf, blind and stupid right now, isn't he. Or so we hope! - "I’m going to carry on working at him on this. Grrr." Please trust me and, DON'T. I mean it - don't! Cease all extra-curricular interaction. Study the guinneapig in theoretical format only (books and websites - 'in the mind of the cheating spouse')....Don't worry - you'll find him. But this live one (maybe pair of live ones if she's a Narc to his brainwashed Flying Monkey), I can tell - not least by the rate, extent and nature of his acting-out/taking-out - is going to utterly mentally exhaust, exasperate, even injure you. (Already, he's "punched" little sis, right?...which is all the more potentially long-term damaging at her particular age.) And you don't need that because you have obligations and responsibilities, important plates to begin or continue spinning, of your own. People and things you care about - innocent victims, plus your quality of relationships with Tom and your friends, plus your budding business and career choice - rely on you to be fit, to be present, to be firing on all cylinders as much as possible. Be more cleverly intelligent and energy-efficient thus expedient, by studying him - HIS (hopefully temporary) ILLNESS/CONDITION - *without* having to wade through a load of noise and crud and rotting red-herrings, just to get to the actual truth and 'confessions'. It's too much like hard work, trying to get it or pressure it from this particular horse's own mouth, when there are thousands of quotes and descriptions 'from him', provided by victims and experts (and victim-experts) before you. Trust me. Also: For the sake of your important self-esteem: Never make your priority, anyone that isn't doing likewise with you. (*Particularly* when by the laws of Nature as well as Love, they should be.) Remember that rule. Furthermore: you'd be surprised how easy it is to be in a foul mood because of it all or because you've taken on too much for your 'size of stomach', and without even knowing or meaning to, have it leak out in your dealings with them. - As for your curiosity about her - you'll find her described in detail in the written information, too ('in the mind of the mistress'). - Speaking again in terms of present-day mindset at least: It's no longer ABOUT 'nice'. They're both toxic. Highly. Stay away from the contagion, Lily. All you have to do is *care* and you're susceptible. The more you care, the more vulnerable to infection. Only those who have objectivity-based detachment or/via zero vested interest in either outcome, should approach in that way. Trust me. Okay? If you feel you can't face being around your dad without 'doing anything', as your way of trying to remain however much detached-and-objective in order to avoid being so upset-able - you're perfectly within human and daughterly rights to give him a wide berth for a while. PERFECTLY. If he can't think like a father or grown adult - which (lil blis) he's just shown he can't - and understand and appreciate why whatever needs - that he created - of his own wife and babies (women & children first) supercedes his own needs right now, that's *his* problem. New mantras: This is his bed so he and he alone can lie in it. And. When a seriously emotionally or mentally ill person shows they're armed and dangerous - don't waste time trying to reason with them, just GET OUT OF THE CROSSHAIRS, QUICK, AND *STAY* OUT, and focus your important attention on the victims/survivors and getting and keeping *them* out of his crosshairs. What I'm advising as a better, cannier alternative is more commonly known as, Salvation through your kids, but it works just as well in any direction of heirarchy/status because this is now no longer about who's 'superior' via greater age and normal life experiences, it's about whom in the remaining, all-victims pack is least injured/weakened, least unsettle-able thus least upset thus most together and capable - of suddenly taking temporary charge if/when need be (when). But you can't manage that purely mentally without prior experience, including as a wife, and a long-ago, already fully-recovered, cheated-on one, Lily. So you have to make detachment if/whenever necessary, *physical*. In other words: Under-qualified Alert!!! Don't ever under-estimate yourself, sure. But by the same token, know when/where not to over-estimate yourself, either. Okay? I highly recommend you and your mum sitting down together, surfing the web about it all, Lils. Productive girl time...whistling while you work/two birds with one stone. You can help disempower him and the whole situation/lighten the atmosphere by encouraging her to take the p*ss or to enjoy other victim-authors doing so that you come across. You can then also fill the breach for your mum by translating it all into younger-kid-friendly information for your sibs, if she likes (always-always ask!), take some of that pressure of of her, knowing that you've understood everything correctly because you and she got to discuss and agree it at the time - and/or, if ever you're together stumped - because you've flown it past me or Auntie or Tom or, better yet, all three. Hell, discuss it with anyone you want to! Deliberate or unwitting/temporarily-inept bullies *rely* on their victim(s) taking on their shame and humiliation for them and accordingly keeping schtum, which just exacerbates the abuse's effect. "I would say I noticed a change in him end of nov/dec, he went a bit distant, started to do his own thing and stopped trying with my mum and everyone else again and then i got more worried when they started arguing more." - Save me going back to find it (still short of time, as per) - remind me what was going on, around about then or in the run-up? - I'm not surprised they were arguing more. Probably, if she wasn't aware at that point, she was nevertheless sensing something was up (again) and confronting and querying him over every pertinent thing. The spouse does, you know; they've lived day-in-day-out at close quarters with the cheater, long enough to notice any strange or sudden breakage/change in behavioural patterns, routines, characteristic statements ...e.g. 'throwaway comments, seemingly apropos of nothing' (like, "I may not be good-looking as such, but I think women *do* find me sexy" (while she's there, thinking, Why are you telling *me* that, when ever did I say you weren't?!), or suddenly, repeatedly playing (usually mushy) albums by one particular group, not normally in his taste range (but which includes "our song")...that sort of consciously miss-able yet nonetheless 'feel-able' sign. They 'know' long before they KNOW-know. *************** "I still need to talk to aunty about her moving out, I don’t feel ready for her to go either, even though I know she’s not going to go far. I think she thinks she’s giving my mum a bit of tough love and moving out will help my mum get used to being on her own without my dad, so she gets used to the change. My dad also called her an ‘interfering old b**ch’ when they argued before he left and that might of made her think she was getting in the way of something when all she was doing was helping but I think she’ll listen to me." Then tell her that. Tell her to check it's what you mum wants and needs, rather than just assuming and doing her usual, of being somewhat premature and impatient. Again, I suspect she's whipping the chair away in too sudden and drastic a movement. Your mum has enough unwanted changes to deal with, without that (if she does mind, I mean). And who cares what the (at this point) lunatic said? It was lunatic (funny how that works, eh ;-)). The point is, though - it wasn't mum who said that. Plus, it was probably *meant* to repel your mother's main supporter (think about it)....Isolating the victim is par for the course, MEANING, if Auntie leaves when she's done NOTHING to warrant having to remove herself (that's him!), she is playing straight into his hands!....MANIPULATED. And - too easily. (That ought to do it, not least because it's true.) You're all going to have to start being completely honest and transparent with each other, to band up and ensure the important communication lines stay open at all times. 'Communication is key' in this one as well. You need to increase pack trust so that he and his antics (and possibly the mistress's) can't start you eyeing each other suspiciously due to being played off on one another by him/her, etc. Understand where I'm coming from? I agree she's likely to listen to you. Important: don't over-stretch yourself with the involvement, support and propping-up. Accept any No without greater argument/attempts to persuade than normal. Conserve your energy, let others take the weight or lead for a while (appropriate for their general or present capability). **************** Re Tom: - Ah. His mum will take it upon herself to educate him, I'm sure. Await compensation behaviour. :-) - Re 'occasionally': Phew! (...but it's 'should have', not 'should of'; people for too long have been pronouncing the ''ve' in 'should've' to sound like 'of' - which is what you young'uns have fallen prey to, but it's definitely 'have' ;-)...but seriously - since direct communication *is* key - geddit right. ;-p) - "Two NYEs since being with him, if it was he first one I would of put him first but Holly would of got with college boy, so had to do something :-/. " Then it does look like it was just a case of ignorance and lack of understanding leading to fear-based misconclusion leading to insecurity-insecurity-insecurity--too-much--BOOM! ("MEW-mew-mew-mew...mleugh!"). Yep - ignore and overlook (unless it does ever become a pattern). - Wet enough that his nipples showed through the fabric? ;-D (If there's a) next time - also wipe your eyes on it so that enough of your mascara comes off on it and stains it. :-D Better yet, state that you'll see and talk to him again, once he shows he's grown/grown back a bit of intelligence and empathy :-p. And - as for you: NO MORE KEEPING THINGS FROM YOUR LOVER AND NUMBER 1 CONFIDANTE OR - LOOK WHAT RESULTS! Do you really think he'd have been that insensitive had he known exactly how disturbed and upset you really were, underneath your Superwoman cloak? You forgot the 'if you get mistaken for a rock and sat on (or for too long)...' rule I mentioned up there, didn't you. By rights, then, he just as equally could daub wet mascara onto *your* t-shirt. Because, without realising, you started it - by depriving him of information through which to know to emotionally protect you/the relationship to what degree. I'll say it again: In any relationship but particularly this one: COMMUNICATION (clear, complete) IS KEY TO HARMONY AND (ULTIMATELY) SUCCESS. " Had a bit of a crap day yesterday where just annoying things happened like car not working which made me late for college, then I got an essay back and my tutor comment was ‘I know you can do better, try again’ with no pointers on how to improve it, he likes us to really think without much help, I thought it was ok. Also wasn’t looking forward to tom going bk to uni. Small things but i felt more stressed by them. Tom only had to ask what was wrong with my car and I lost it." Whereas, I'm betting in Situation Normal those things wouldn't have got to you half as much as that. So I rest my cases, including re biting off more than you can chew or not taking a break from the source of stress (dad/trying to suss him out and corner him into fullest confession and sense of culpability when he's not even 'equipped' to). Because look at the difference once you spilled: "he was quite angry with him when usually he holds back". Yeh? ************ "Tea and choc are also a good temp fix Smiling" True. And 'not ONLY'... Making like a healthfood freak again - all of you - or failing that, taking supplements, will help enormously, you'd be surprised how much...until you remember that calories and nutrients are BRAINPOWER as well as body power. Fuel. The better and more pure the fuel, the faster and longer the vehicle will travel. This case - the gene-vehicles. ************ So how's the biz, lately? Has 'mum's rain' stopped or interrupted play at all?

Oh no sorry, that was my Mum who told my dad he had to tell us and that he could come round a tell us about gf, only so she could be there for us and so we were at home. Ugh, the thought of being in the same room as his gf, never going to happen at the mo! My mum said she knew of Dads gf a few days before Xmas and she was trying to distract herself which I think is why she pushed for Toms family to come round. My dad did come back last weekend in the end, with no more pressure from me or anyone else, so me and sis went. As soon as sis saw him she started crying and I so wanted to slap him when he asked her why she was crying, duh! Didn’t hug her or anything (so I did) he just lectured her on apparently her ‘behaviour’ and her ‘tantrum’ in the week, when she said she wanted to see him telling her she was spoilt?! She’s quite good at sticking up for herself, so she the argued back with him with me backing her up. He was such a a*rsehole and in such an nasty mood we left after half an hour and sis was the one who said she wanted to leave and wasn’t nice when we did get up and go either. I actually think now bro is doing the right thing by not seeing him for the moment, coz it’s not a nice visit. It feels like he want us to not like him so he can get on with his life. He’s not down this weekend and I’ve left him alone thus week and will do for the moment until he makes contact again. Ah I’ve had a looked up to see what I wrote around end of nov time and on the 21 nov, I put my dad seemed more happy, and he was being more thoughtful towards my Mum. Clearly feeling guilty. Then on the next post 1 dec was when he accepted the job offer. Before then I hadn’t put much about him I remember there wasn’t much to say about him. also remember asking him what he had planned for my mums birthday and what he was getting her but he hasn’t planned or got her anything only up till the last minute. Have spoken to aunty and she understands and is staying out for a bit now. She did take it personally what my dad said to her. I think Toms Mum has enlightened him now! Since he’s been back at uni he’s been in contact a lot more then before and is now planning going to /book somewhere to meet half way. Thinks he’s also homesick too, he menti oned it a bit over Xmas hols. Biz still carried on over x mas hols and still is going well.. Toms bro has been working on the website over Xmas too, looks gd so far :-D the magazine people are coming next week to ‘interview’/ do a write up on biz next week. my mum has taken a bit of a back seat for the moment my dad was in charge of the money side of things but he’s not anymore , eventually might be a job for Holly in the future she’s gd at maths. My mums coping pretty well but I’m still waiting for everything to hit her aunty is on the look out too. Not up this late btw was meant to send it before going to sleep, which didn’t happen, night zzzzzzzzzz

"My mum said she knew of Dads gf a few days before Xmas" Then I am *very* impressed at her ability to tread water like that, rather than go under. But how, pray tell, did she find out? "Ugh, the thought of being in the same room as his gf, never going to happen at the mo!" It's up to you ENTIRELY, when or even if. You're allowed to be angry, hence it's a natural, universal response to this type of relational crime; it's your bereavement and forgiveness schedule and prerogative and don't let anyone try to tell you differently. You don't even HAVE to forgive and acquiesce! (Ollocks to that PC ollocks - we are not Jesus, magnanimously doling out forgiveness whether it's asked for or not; we mere mortals have to be asked for it - genuinely, sincerely, via supportive actions. Put it this way: the criminal has to want it or there's no point and you're left with only Accepting What Germ-Ridden Gits You Are on your responsive choices menu. And trust me - people who can behave that heinously are definitely germ- or previously-dormant-virus-ridden and, thereby, potentially highly infectious). If he really didn't want a situation wherein his own daughter wasn't talking to him or accepting the company of any new lover of his then - he should have thought about that before he cheated and had it influence his choice of actions, rather than what he SHOULD have done (moved out, started a divorce (and paid £300+/- for the petition-raising), grieved appropriately and *then* gone back onto the dating market) EH! But replacing your mother according to the rule of monogamy, clearly wasn't his agenda, equally-big EH. His bed, he had every "chance-EZ-EZ-EZ" of avoiding lying in it, so he can now damn well lie in it. (Ohhh, just gimmie the gun, Lils, LOL.) "I actually think now bro is doing the right thing by not seeing him for the moment, coz it’s not a nice visit. It feels like he want us to not like him so he can get on with his life. He’s not down this weekend and I’ve left him alone thus week and will do for the moment until he makes contact again." Good. And - absolutely. He's still the parent and you still 'the child', not the other way around. And well done for showing rightful allegiance with your poor little blister. "I put my dad seemed more happy, and he was being more thoughtful towards my Mum. Clearly feeling guilty." That, and/or heating her back up, ready for When, to the extent whereby she'd find it that much harder to remove herself from his clutches and he could end up with two wives for the price of one, both vying for his greater attention and in the process feeding him ego num-nums? Sorry, but - he is not a higher-functioning Aspie. They wouldn't hurt a fly, can't stand to see *anyone or anything* suffer, let alone at their hand, let alone unintentionally or otherwise attempting to soul-murder their loyal, faithful, decades-long spouse and mother of their kids. They do, however, seemingly have a lot of *positives* in common when the sun's out. But once the clouds then lightning strike, it's oil -v- water (or snake and mongoose) time. Question: are you truly, genuinely all that SHOCKED at what he's been doing and how he's been doing it (sneakily and cruelly), as in 'invasion of the body-snatchers/gimmie back my lovely dad!' or was he more subtly always like this? Think hard. Not that it matters at this juncture of his certainly being in an incurable Narcissistic state of mind as could spaghettify your own brain, which, even one iota of, you DON'T NEED. So yes, brother's instinct is sensibly self- thus pack-preservationist. Take your eyes RIGHT off him and focus 100% on your mum and yourself and all who sail in you. I know it's difficult...and I'm not suggesting you don't think and reflect. But what I am saying is - deal with the emotional sheets already piled high in your in-tray, don't let him generate yet more or you'll get bogged down and incapable of seeing as straight as normal. Glad you've noticed a change in Tom (with congruent actions to verify it, note - tick!). And re the biz - ooh, exciting! :-) And that - and Tom - is why you don't need even 1% of spaghettifying or any attempt to. That meeting was a prime example of what I mean. And he was angry that you two showed him up and "made him" cancel his weekend plans so, yep, I'm with you...creating a fight as the perfect opportunity to then flounce out and see the mistress. Typical. No matter that you two rightly flounced, it still left you both upset, confused and distracted...the damage was done, despite limitation attempts on your parts. Keep your distance, at least emotionally if nothing else, ALL OF YOU. Get on with building your own lives because it's like building up muscle and stamina. Describe the website design and colouring to me? PS: Holly - good. "[my mum has taken a bit of a back seat for the moment] my dad was in charge of the money side of things but he’s not anymore" How so? ****************** Vital Warning, just in case: Tell her you've heard she should waste no time in getting the wheels of raising a divorce petition into motion - i.e. RING A SOLICITOR - RIGHT NOW, TODAY! - and getting her brief to organise Interim Maintenance because most cheating husbands use the woman's period of uncertainty-hope-uncertainty-hope-(paralysis) and need for time and room to come to a decision to split, to start removing and shuffling marital money and assets around in order to beat the standard 6 months-worth of financial disclosure to the court (via sworn statements on the divorce Form E backed up by bank and c/card statements, etc.). They start 'lending' and 'donating' money to their friends and family in the hope or under the understanding that they'll be able to get it back following the Decree Absolut (the divorce coming into legal effect whereby any after-claims cost would cost the duped spouse more in legal fees than the very withheld hidden extras they seek to recoup). But meanwhile, the marital piggybank sat on the family court table appears rather skinnier than anticipated, meaning, she doesn't get half of 100% but half of 70 or 50... but yet, the money trail is now sat outside of the 6 month forensics back period. Capiche? If he wants to win her back he can do so just as easily - or more easily, given 'now' equal footing - AFTER they've divorced and split the dosh and material goods. I.e. future safety and security first, romantic rekindling second. Which Family Law solicitor does not matter at this point because this is just provisional nuts 'n bolts-placing. She can transfer her case to a solicitor of her more leisurely choosing at any point thereafter. She must NOT let any attempts of his to pull on her heartstrings make her feel mentally incapable of doing the above as his way to buy secret hiding and shuffling-around time. Or she *will* regret it. And she has zero reason not to start the divorce while he is not back full-time in that family home with proof of having terminated the illicit, frankly *illegal* (er) relationship and utterly everything and everyone associated with that woman, including that cheating privacy screen of a so-called new "must-have" job. (Yeah, you and I know what 'jobs' he's more truthfully been part-time after, and staples and paperclips don't even feature!) ****************** PS: You and auntie staying vigilant re mum - good. All pack-protective bases seemingly covered, then. :-) PS: Get the business lodged with St Catherine's House in your name so that your father can't take a present or future slice of it. Not saying he'd try but this is about heading him off at every pass so that he CAN'T as well as forcing him to have to choose rather than have his cake AND eat it. Because let's not fail to note that NOWHERE have you said - when you obviously would have - that your dad has raised a petition or asked your mum to, GIANT TIME-BUYING NOTE! ***** "Not up this late btw was meant to send it before going to sleep, which didn’t happen, night zzzzzzzzzz" Extenuating circumstance - you're off the hook. Not that you don't need extra sleep to deal with the extra emotional in-tray sheets while you 'sleep', but - whatever it takes to cope is fine by me because coping has taken priority, given especially the fact that your biz phones will soon be ringing off the hook, meaning, peak performance capability required.

My mum got it out of my Dad and made him confess that his gf was more then a ‘friend’, he denied it at first, but she knew they would be working at the same hospital and that gf kept the job open for him and that my dad would be staying with her. He won’t admit to is how long their relationship has been going on for, but my mum suspects longer then he’s letting on. I think it’s slowly sinking in for my mum now she can be tearful and also quite snappy when she doesn’t mean to be. She was going out with her friends quite a lot and that was to carry on distracting herself but that stopped last weekend and she’s just been wanting to spend time alone. Leech face has not vanished, unfortunately, she’s all pleased with what’s happened and is trying hard to worm her way back in even more now’. And another one of my mums friends was trying to set her up with someone so they could go on a double date :-|. She might of been trying to be helpful/supportive or whatever but it’s not exactly thoughtful or taking other peoples feelings into consideration :-|. Thankfully my mum didn’t go. None of us have spoken to my dad and it’s nearly two weeks since sis and I last saw him. It is hard and I think about it quite a lot and find myself getting angry. There is part of me that isn’t that shocked because my dad isn’t always that good at handling or saying things in the right way but he’s never been this sneaky or mean. So I think gf might be influencing him too, maybe encourage his behaviour or making him think it’s ok. Courosity got the better of me and i looked my dads gf up, god I can tell she looks she looks stuck up, can tell just by looking at a photo of her. I’ve been to two of Holly’s counselling sessions now, it’s been really interesting, but the second session was the last session I get to go to. But for college I have to find a work experience placement, and it’s a Counselling centre Holly goes to and I asked if they’d take me on for work experience and they said yes :-). So that one thing to look forward too. Ah will get biz registered ! I don’t think my dad would but never know. My mum has sort of taken a back seat as in she just lets me get in with the lessons and next week over half term we are not doing lessons all day, every day. Did warn parents this time but she says she just wants a break this half term and want to poss go away somewhere. Website for biz - colour scheme, at the moment, it’s keeps changing, is yellow and green. Sis finished all her logo ideas just recently, she came up with five different ones, so I let the kids pick and the most popular one was a piano with music notes and a little person playing the guitar and music notes coming out of both instruments. I’m really bad at describing! The home page which is advertising lessons, etc, Toms bro also came up with the idea of a ‘staff page’ with a pic of each staff member, and a bit about each of us, so parents /kids can see who’s going to be teaching their kids/them. We have also started singing lessons, and so we have employed my mums friend who was once a music teacher. Only potential problem with biz in the future is that house a is probably going to be put up for sale eventually, my mum wants a smaller house which obviously means less room but hopefully it will work that out.

Thank god I've found a suitable window for posting; sorry, Lils, please don't take it personally as if I had my way, I'd be here for you daily at this juncture. Just wanted you to know that. ********** I fail to see how the gf kept a job as important as that, open for him, UNLESS she herself is the departmental employer. Me, I reckon it's been going on AT LEAST since you yourself suspected something going on with that locum... a case of Right Forest, WRONG TREE. The simple fact remains, you - Little Miss Extensive Radar - felt at that point that your father *was susceptible* to A.N. Other woman. Understandable that your mum can't keep a lid on how she feels. It's too big. Especially now she's had a chance to realise that self-distraction doesn't work if tried to be taken beyond the shock-cushioning stage. "Kkkkkkk!" [extended claws] to Leech Face. The other mate probably meant well in misguidedly thinking that 'getting over someone by getting under someone else' could prove helpful. Keep reassuring your mum that she's doing the right thing by effectively putting herself into an isolation ward in Intensive Care for a spell. (Emphasis on spell.) You and your sibs could try to take up the slack re all chipping in with the 'pennies' of the Pounds Housework. "It is hard and I think about it quite a lot and find myself getting angry." Good on ya! Again, nothing wrong with your instincts. Get it out until there's nothing left. And if ever your mum appears to be 'sliding down the plughole', try to encourage her to get angry, too. Anger's a lifesaver when utilised properly and can buffer the worst of the pain. "There is part of me that isn’t that shocked because my dad isn’t always that good at handling or saying things in the right way " Examples and plenty of them, please? "Courosity got the better of me and i looked my dads gf up, god I can tell she looks she looks stuck up, can tell just by looking at a photo of her." You can, yes, albeit as you age you'll come to realise just how incredibly rare that depth of observational insight is. You're the third person I've ever met, including myself, who can do that. (Super-Nova Empath :-)) Re the work experience - excellent! :-) How's Holly feeling for the counselling? "Ah will get biz registered ! I don’t think my dad would but never know." It's not that he might or might not try to take anything from you, but if your mum is registered (yet) as a partner then it's better that he couldn't steal a share of that pending giant asset from her, with you suffering as a consequence. Just me, that business *is* going to become a giant asset and income-bringer at some point (and as I say, it would be a perfect and easily-done franchise business). But at the moment, it's yours as sole founder. You can add her, after a decent period following the Decree Absolut, if you want and/or feel it's the right and fair thing to do as opposed to her being merely an employee. Also, it's a goal to focus on - which she'll need. People devoid of at least one significant goal to focus on ('keeping the eyes on the prize') suffer the most from a nasty relationship breakdown, trust me on that. Means for Hopefulness / feeling you have future Options is imperative. So I suggest you inspire and enthuse your mum with this future visualisation, explaining *in utter confidence* why you're registering it as sole founder-director just for the time being, reassuring her that she can have as lengthy a sabbatical as she needs (presuming she'll stay on-hand for potential consultation purposes?). PS: I've deliberately filed the link to this thread in my personal archive for the purpose of being able to prove in a court of law that the entire concept was your baby before anyone else's (that might try to copy it at any point in the future), should the registering itself somehow ever fail as such. You might want to do the same just to be doubly safe.) Tip for your mum: wherever she goes, it needs ideally to include an amazing, quite far-reaching vista, be it clifftop, sea or country fields. It'll help her clear thinking, massively. (PS: Could Auntie go with her?) No, you're not bad at describing - I got the gist. Just - the simpler and more graphic (for repro and clear and instant recognition purposes), the better. Good instinct, letting the kids pick, but once they've done so, take a poll amongst the adults - preferably your longest-running existing clientele - because, let's not forget, they're the paying customer. "Toms bro also came up with the idea of a ‘staff page’ with a pic of each staff member, and a bit about each of us, so parents /kids can see who’s going to be teaching their kids/them." Excellent, but not quite yet...because your mum would have to be left out, remember? But, yep, superb idea, very helpful for the all-important parent-reassurance. "We have also started singing lessons, and so we have employed my mums friend who was once a music teacher." What can I say? Who needs me and my advice?! LOL Don't worry about the venue change. Divorces are not quick, you've probably got about 18 months to 2 years, by which time it won't be a problem, just a next logical requirement and a beneficial growth move. Anyway, bar the healthy anger - how are you feeling and what effect, if any, is it having on your daily doings? Also, is your mum reading any books or doing any surfing to 'get inside the mind of a cheater'?

:-) Nope, I don’t take it personally. Yeah, I think my dad has been seeing her for well over a year. My mum agrees and said she remembers him going to a lot of ‘gp meetings’ over the last couple of years that he apprently had to travel for. We both know his surgery closes once a month for Gp monthly meetings/ training, but it’s always been local. I heard from my dad, he called and asked if I wanted to meet up with him, he’s kind of near (ish) Toms uni. At first I didn’t want to, but changed my mind and said yes, IF he came to me and he did. I wanted to see him make the effort since he hadn’t been to his rented in the last three weeks. I felt quite anxious about seeing him and I didn’t want Tom come with me, I just wanted it to be me and my dad, not that I expected him to start being honest and talk to me or admit anything. Also wasn’t too sure if Tom would of stayed quiet, he’s really p*ssed off and keeps saying to me that my dad has no idea how this is all effecting and he wishes he could tell him. It was really awkward at first and conversation didn’t exactly flow well, there were some long silences. There is still no realisation as to what he’s done what so ever and I asked him why hadn’t been in contact for three weeks and he said he was giving us all some space. He did ask how my Mum was and I was like ‘how do YOU think she’s is?’ , he thought I was being sarcatic, I wasn’t, I was was just trying to get him to answer his own question. I wasn’t myself after, brain went into overload and just wanted a bit of space to think, read a book and calm down a bit. Tom was all hyped up and wanted to go and do something but he got the hint and left me alone for a while. He seemed to be a lot more intuitive. My mum is angry now, like really angry but she always end up crying when she tries to express it. She was angry with me for meeting up with my dad and when I asked why she went into a rant, telling me he didn’t deserve me or sibs. I felt really guilty but it was my decision and I thought about for a while before agreeing to meet him. She did go away with aunty and sibs to Cornwall, Tom’s Mum recommended somewhere and it was very rural. Bl**dy leech face wanted to join her until she found out aunty was going. Aunty is showing she is serious about moving closer, can’t remenber if I said her house is on the market and she’s been clearing all her stuff and her house. She’s also now looking for a job, think she’s really bored. I’m pleased coz if it wasn’t for her, leech face would be all over my mum. I had to make sure Holly went back to counselling without me coz she was threatening not to go bk. She tried to tell me she didn’t like the counsellor, which I didn’t buy coz after the first two sessions she told me she was relieved the counsellor was nice and she felt listened to. Only thing I would say it that the counsellor seemed to be very straightforward and Holly isn’t used to that, she wants people to agree with her and not always open to trying to see it from another point of view. She is also scared of opening up she has a lot to talk about. I really wanted to be there for more then two sessions! She did go back though. Hmm I’m ok, I feel quite anxious sometimes and like I’ve lost my ‘bubbly-ness’. I was worried I wasn’t going to be able to sleep again but now it’s the oppersite. Thankfully biz and teaching lessons straight after college everyday stops me from going to bed and keeps me distracted. I’m also isolating myself a bit too, I’m going to sound like a right loner, at college, I’ll go and sit somewhere on my own at lunch/ breaks, I don’t make an effort to go and sit with friends and if friends join me, I feel like I don’t want their company. Going to try and not do this next week before they think I don’t like them anymore :-/. Only person who knows about parents Holly. Nope don’t think my mum is reading or researching yet but will get her too.

Oh LILS I'm so sorry this thing went to hell in a hand basket. I was really hoping that things would turn around and there be more of a happier ending instead of this. A big (HUG)from me to you and your mum. As my dad used to say... Is there anything I can do for ya? Root beer float? Butterscotch sunday?

Let me rephrase that. Not a happier ending but that things would have turned out better. The end is yet to come and things could get better.

Lils (and Scopes), I'll bust a gut to reply tomorrow or Wed latest.

Lils, I get that you thought you'd found a way to test out your dad's integrity and liability to be more like his old self by insisting on seeing if he'd play Mohammad to the Mountain (you), but - and this is why I advised against any emotional or prolonged interaction for a while - evidence suggests he had his own reasons for making the effort. Namely - to get to pass off his rotten attitudes as somehow magnanimous ('GIVING you all space', my a*se), a purely selfish, ego-defensive agenda. And, more to the point, to use you to get a temperature reading of your mum. (He knew darn well you weren't being sarcastically rhetorical. He failed to address that issue because he wasn't interested in how she feels or doesn't feel, only in what his chances are for keeping her open as a future option in case things with mistress at any point go belly-up. Me-Me-Me-Me-Me(-Sod-You-Lot). He used that meeting with you. Sorry. It's very common at this early point, to use the kids as unwitting, non-consensual sources of information for insurance and ammo. He certainly doesn't need telling how destroyed his highly selfish, self-obsessed choices have left you all feeling, he's simply lost or discarded his moral bearings, not his powers of cognition, memory and imagination (or memory of myriad films and telly dramas if all else had failed). He's not stupid or amnesiac. He simply wants to be wholly selfish and self-serving, lately (or from now on), and wants nothing and nobody to get in the way of that, including triggering his conscience as would trigger guilt as would trigger the need to zap it by repainting history and repackaging himself as wholly justified in what terrible, frankly inhumane thing he's done. If he gave a sh*t about your mother, their emotional history, the life they've jointly worked hard for and built, her mental and emotional welfare, then, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. Understand? Actions. Actions, actions, actions including failure to act or cancel out acts. It is ENFURIATING to hear an emotional rapist and batter asking the bloody obvious regarding how the victim he put in Intensive Care is. You were bound to find it an affront and react emotionally thus unbridledly honestly. Aim, Fire, Litmus-paper Bullseye ("she still really loves me and can't cope without me, I can carry on playing away at my leisure"). Next time, say, 'If you wish to know how my mother is, please ask her; it's called a phone or email or text or letter'. Refuse to enter into the habit of becoming his (and her) secret messenger; otherwise, the fact you're their child and a co-victim will get completely forgotten ("Make like a rock and..."). I know it's like too much like invasion of the body-snatchers (who are you and where's my dad?!). But that's why you need to do your research of 'him' and how he thinks/feels in this morally corrupt position/mindset from the safer distance of the web. Not saying he wouldn't have missed you. But he shouldn't have tried to 'buy one (see Lily), get one (underhanded litmus reading) free'. And nor should you, really. You need to appreciate your mother's been reduced to pure survival mode, as includes over-defensiveness out of overwhelmingly huge fears and paranoias. The nightmares she always thought wouldn't/couldn't happen, actually can(!!!), meaning, it turns out THEY ALL COULD!...one of which, is that he'll somehow manage to lure you kids away from her, possibly permanently...just when needed you all most...which would feel too unconscionably unfair and too re-traumatising or trauma-compounding, all things considered. And, that she's already been denied her own agency, BIG-TIME, therefore, needs to be shown TLC by being consulted with and deferred to in all such important decisions as could wound her in ways you hadn't foreseen or even imagined. (Like this.) Not saying she's right to expect you to stick by her side and give his a wide berth for emotional reasons. But this right now isn't about right or anything else left-brained, it's about emotional damage-limitation and protection - being extra-extra careful with her for a wee while, just until she can COPE with the idea of your wanting to see 'the monster' regardless of how broken-boned, bloodied and bruised he's (wholly avoidably) left your one-and-only mum. I'm sure if he'd just done things straight, i.e. insisted he wanted a divorce, then mourned for a decent period, THEN gone onto the dating market - your mum wouldn't feel quite as she does (understatement). But I'm betting she feels very betrayed and backstabbed right now so, please don't add to it. Okay? She needs a show of recognition of being the victim, loyalty, and support - emotionally as well as practically. Just give her that much-needed sense of safety of having control over what pitifully little she still feels in-control over, for a few more weeks or months. Furthermore, your daughterly rights to see your own dad if you want to are a bit of a moot point for a while when - admit it - that man isn't exactly "your dad" right now, is he. He's a stranger. Ergo - meetings are futile, bar painfulness. At least urgently create an opportunity to explain, if you haven't yet done so, that you were moreover trying to gather intel for her benefit (albeit ensure to add that it failed and won't be something you'd ever wish to repeat)? I imagine that would soothe her poor nerves considerably. Can you do that? And can you trust me, now, next time I give three firm warnings against something? If you can't help ut want to see him, stick to safer small talk topics. But me, I'm with her. He does not deserve being treated as if everything is the same. Not until he starts to demonstrate a huge wish to make amends and cap all hurts and woundings. In that meeting, he did the opposite. Again, this is not Situation Normal including Divorce Normal, it's long drawn-out wife-battering. And that's just telling it like it is, which, anyone who's been dealt the massive, MASSIVE blow of being cheated on by the person they loved and trusted and gave-gave-gave to for many, many years, would relate to. So yes, you thought it through for a while but lacked the experience to see the unseen pathways to damage exacerbation. That's what I meant by under-qualified. But you meant very well so you won't get a bum-smack from Fate. :-) ******* Massive tick for Tom! ******* "Bl**dy leech face wanted to join her until she found out aunty was going." That says it all and I'm sure is not lost on mum. "I’m pleased coz if it wasn’t for her, leech face would be all over my mum." I'm sure Auntie realises that, no worries. What about online support from other Betrayees? And what does your mum believe is behind this heinous, seeming change of personality and attitudes? Does she blame the mistress or realise that the mistress is but a symptom of his dis-ease and quite possibly a co-victim? ******* How come you didn't go to Cornwall? ******* Massive tick for Holly, too! I'm getting the sense that Holly doesn't trust being all alone with an adult, "in case" (e.g. they suddenly turn on her) - aren't you? ******* "Hmm I’m ok, I feel quite anxious sometimes and like I’ve lost my ‘bubbly-ness’." Good, then you're normal (and at the top of that positional league if that's all at this worst point). "I was worried I wasn’t going to be able to sleep again but now it’s the oppersite." Excellent! Keep it up! Think of yourself as a constantly used iphone with hundreds of apps on the go. You're re-charging overnight, and for a decent period by the sounds of it. :-) "Thankfully biz and teaching lessons straight after college everyday stops me from going to bed and keeps me distracted." Okay, but, if you feel like you need to go to bed then you should, if at all possible. Otherwise, I highly recommend a power nap of no more than 20 mins (set your alarm). You want to reach that place where you're neither asleep nor awake - meditative. You'll be surprised how effective such a tiny amount of time as that can make. Which reminds me: suggest your mum start Yoga. It's just been proven to play a huge part in salving and healing trauma. "I’m also isolating myself a bit too, I’m going to sound like a right loner, at college, I’ll go and sit somewhere on my own at lunch/ breaks, I don’t make an effort to go and sit with friends and if friends join me, I feel like I don’t want their company. Going to try and not do this next week before they think I don’t like them anymore :-/. Only person who knows about parents Holly." Don't 'try not to' anything. Listen to your inner animal - this is ITS show, not Conscious Yours. Just say, I've got a heck of a lot on my mind, lately, and need to be alone to think...thank-you for your patience. If you TELL people, they won't ask and neither will they make up answers just because they're preferable to an open mystery. "Nope don’t think my mum is reading or researching yet but will get her too." Again - yes, please do. ******** I think you'll all be fine. It'll just feel incredibly horrid and de-stabilizing, possibly enough to at the time convince any of you that you're *not* fine. Well - actions-actions say you are, all of you. So - no need to worry, whatsoever. This is just about gritting your teeth and tolerating for a while. And, like I said before, rallying around the FRONTLINE VICTIM. Take little "bother's" tip where your dad's concerned. He can relate even better because he's midway through his training to become Protector of Women & Children so can better appreciate the severity thus the futility of trying to snap dad out of it at this premature juncture. Any questions?

PS you've left questions of mine in my last two posts unanswered, particularly the one about whether or not you saw flashes of this from your dad, at any point, growing-up? Are you not ready for a question like that yet?

Yeah ...looking back, I can see now that it was not a good idea meeting my dad and I that he was using me to find out information for himself just incase things don’t work out for him. When I agreed to meet him it felt wrong, but I wasn’t listening to anyone or any signs. I didn’t sleep well the night before and I felt anxious the next morning till I saw him and when I was with him the questions he was asking me made me feel uncomfortable and angry. Tom did questioned why I wanted to see my dad and tried to point out to me that it wasn’t right I was so stressed and anxious about seeing him. I gave him quite a defensive response because I thought Dad was making an effort: as he was driving acouple of hours to see me and was meeting me where I wanted. Feel like a bit of a fool, he said he would call and he hasn’t bothered, it feels like just got what he wanted and now bu**ered off again :-|. Growing up - he could be very intimidating, when he was angry or if he was in a bad mood. With sibs he was more strict with bro and favoured sis to the point where it was very noticeable. It was one of the things my mum and Dad used to argue about. I think (the above) why now bro is coping quite well without having any contact with my dad. I did ask him about it because not contact is something I’m now really struggling with, I thought two , nearly 3 weeks was long enough but bros had no contact since x-mas. he said when he thinks he’s missing our Dad or feels like he might want to contact him he looks at how upset our Mum is and what he our dad has done which makes him angry and that makes it easy for him to stay away from our dad at the moment. He’s grown up quite a lot because this time last year he would rebelling. But I didn’t think my dad could ever act this badly or be capable of what he’s done. So it’s does feel like I don’t know who he is anymore. I did talk to my Mum again after her rant and did explain it all to her, she understands She’s is blaming both of them at the moment, she think it’s gf who is influencing his behaviour and she’s says it’s because my dad is weak and unlikely to stand up to her. Funny you should mention yoga, my Mum and aunty have signed up to do lots of classes one of them is yoga, , this is aunty wanting to make friends and feel more settled, they’ve also joined a book club and a walking group. Didn’t go to Cornwall coz I went to see tom, he did also suggest that maybe I should go and I think I should gone coz I might not of been tempted to see my dad, as I had a feeling he would contact me to find out where I was going to be. Yeah Holly hates being left alone with an adult and she finds it hard to trust. She’s never had a good relationship with her stepmum, and she used to get left on her own with her quite a lot and she wasn’t nice ! I think what is helping is that we both have no lessons the day after her Counselling and we usually talk about it (if she’s wants to) . ******** Thanks scopes :-)

(Usual apologies for lateness!) It's alright, you don't need to beat yourself up or anything for ignoring your instincts, I know how hard this is (in fact, truth is, you're doing better than most adults), but you're also DefCon-ed right now so it's imperative that I remember to instruct you through a loudhailer. My fault for not using one. (I keep wearing them out, see, LOL.) But that you were knackered and anxious is a pertinent pointer: this is when your manipulators or those in a manipulative mindset get you - because your normal defences and resilience are lowered. Note that and - new mantras: if feeling emotionally roused in either direction - DO NOT ACT. And if the thought of doing something's making you feel bad - work out what that indicates and give it a wide berth until it - possibly, possibly not - ceases to. Wait until your emotions settle. You get emotional and it literally dampens down your usual powers of judgement. But you are nothing like a fool. You were reacting as one would if they were dealing with another normal person. So it's a case of normal, healthy response (yours) to abnormal behaviour (his). But that's precisely how they get you...until you realise they're no longer 'normal'. The fool is him, Lily. Plus you've just learned a priceless life lesson so...it's all good (just doesn't feel like it yet). ****** Oh, god. What are you calling 'intimidating' - just to be clear? And are we talking Golden Child? Is this why your interest in you-know-whatism not so long ago? ******* Bro is being very self-help sensible. Anger is definitely a handy buffer for heartbreak. Sounds like he's deliberately seeking or contriving top-ups and that it's working. Would you try writing him the stinkiest, most angry and judgemental letter imaginable (that you obviously don't send)? ******* Pff - weak. He's not weak. He's incredibly self-obsessed and selfish. No excuses, tell her. And he'll do a dirty on the mistress, you just watch that future space. After all, he's had no problems 'standing up to' your mum, has he. (Actions!) EXCELLENT to the yoga class (and Auntie, as per). I must say, you lot do have uncanny instincts. Stick together very closely. Pull up the drawbridge and do whatever else to make the pack feel SAFE, particularly emotionally. Then calm will reign and healing can start. Another tip: when that angst kicks in - sit down and FEEL IT. If you do that, you'll come out the other side of the pain wave, meaning, it won't get shelved for a re-run for another day. Think labour pains. It's not 'one more', it's 'ONE LESS'. Picture two buckets, one full of water, the other empty. And each time you go through a pain wave/session, it's like pouring another glass of water from the full bucket into the empty one....one down, only another X to go. That's how it works. So there's your incentive. However, like I say, you can buffer it with anger - think drip-drip noise from a tap that you cover up with the radio but whereby the tap still gets to do its dripping. (Sense?) You might all want to take a trip to the health food shop for supplements that help allevitate stress and enhance mental clarity. Homeopathic does work. But it's like anything - you have to find the stuff that suits you as an individual. ******* So Holly's been well abused, then, by the sounds? Is she growing more comfy with the counsellor with each passing session? What about you - do you think you might benefit from being able to rant and cuss it all out in a safely supervised session? What about sport, are you doing any? Ultimately, however, the vital thing is not to worry. This grief with its back-and-forth waves of pain and despair is natural and highly strengthening in the end. You will end up with amazing coping skills because of it. Liken it to muscle strain. Because that, basically (over-use of your brain) is what causes those sensations. ******* How are you and your mum - getting closer and closer?

Doing better then most adults - oh good that's reassuring I thought I was losing it :^) My dad is intimidating when he's really angry, he'll shout and at the time he doesn't seem to care how the person on the receiving end feels . He'll also show his anger by slamming a door, or hitting something to make us jump. it's like the time when he wanted me home from toms really stupidly early and he shouted at me then and slammed the door in my face. He does eventually apologise but it always feels too late. And he's now def too late with my mum. Yeah sis was treated like the golden child and she got away with a lot of things that bro would of got in trouble. And my dad would spoil her too. I have used the sit down and feel it tip a few times this week and I like it, I'm going to keep doing it. I think a letter would be a good off load, hmm where to start?! Holly has confessed to me that she slept with 'college boy' , they are not dating - she seemed to think this was ok :-|. I don't know him so I don't what he's like but (going by her past bfs)I worry he could start to use her now and she's not strong enough to say no. I'm disapppointed coz she seemed to understand and get the whole narcarist bf thing and agreed to stay single for a year at least. We were also slowly getting our friendship back to normal too and becoming best buds again. I think it's coz her dad moved on pretty quickly after her mum died and gives her step mum all the attention, so holly tries to get attention from boys and why she struggles to be single. That's my theory I don't know if she would agree. she has now seemed to settle with this counsellor though, and for the moment I'm going to let her counsellor deal with this. I'm not giving up on her completely, I'm just not going to take on her stuff too. Have been thinking I might need counselling, my mum also keeps surgesting it too. I used to run and swim a lot but I'm still anaemic and my doc warned about over doing it. Just can't seem to get on top of, it even I've changed what I eat and take vitamins and every six weeks I have blood and I'm hopeful my iron levels are normal but they're not. Yeah me and my mum are getting a lot more closer, I feel like I'm about 5 when I do this but I have snuck into her room at night (she's normally awake) for a hug or to talk, she was a bit surprised at first and it's slowly turned into watching a tv series or a film. My cousin sent me a nice text saying he was sorry to hear about my mum and dad and offered me and sibs to go stay with him ...was shocked. it's auntys youngest son who never normally contacts anyone and who I've always thought was a self centred k**b. Aunty said she didn't put the idea into his head when she told him and she was really pleased he actually thought to do this... so, I've decided to give him the bennifit of the doubt, and going to stay with him this weekend, could go be nice or I might up coming home early! But feel like I need to get away.

Getting away would do you good Hon.

yeah was good to get away :-). Found out my college provides counselling which I have decided to go for coz I feel really sad all the time now, never used to cry a lot but it's almost daily now and anything small can trigger me off ...time for a bit of help I think +0(

LIL once again a BIG (HUG) from Scopesie! Yeah sweetie some tough times here. It is a good thing that your college has counseling :-D

News for you: crying is not a sign of becoming upset, but of getting UN-upset. Cryink ist gut, do more of it, comrad, not less, and *certainly* don't be disturbed by it. Think of it as weeing out bad or waste brain chemicals (and that statement is not so far from the truth). Abnormally high amount of thought processing = abnormally high byproduct for weeing out - that simple. Hence the suggestion of increasing the 'weeing' via another avenue (writing it out). You obviously have a lot to get out, especially as - whether I pointedly plonk it atop the table or not - your mind will be background-busy, going through all the past event albums and recordings in its annals, having to reclassify whatever you took at the time to be benign but which - given this new light to shine on everything - wasn't. That's one hell of a pile of 'food for thought' so...Now do you understand why you're brain-weeing so much more? "It's my party and I'll cry if I want to, cry if I want to, CRY if I want to! You would cry too if it happened to-oo....yoooou!" What you describe is called a tantrum. Highly immature behaviour from a supposedly grown man. ...Followed by apology only when he can see it imperative or 'no dice' (because you're not a Back Down merchant when you know you're right by any sane person's standards) - and/or talking an inordinate time to calm down (avg healthy human calm-down time 20 minutes maximum)... Equals Tantrum + Sulk. Bingo, unfortunately. Albeit it doesn't prove permanence or intrinsic-ness. He could be a Narc victim who's never 'un-victimed' ("too much like hard work, too busy, aargh!"), instead (how queer for a man of his generation :-p) burying his head in the sand until his head...well - eventually inevitably exploded. All over his own self and you lot. Unfortunately, particularly in these circumstances, the only teller is Time. (Avg healthy human recalibration time 2-5 years. Patience is a virtue, indeedie!..and preferable to cold-blooded murder or a banana shoved hard up the exhaust pipe (either variety, LOL.)) Shouldn't laugh; you're probably sick of this whole situation, really. But, still - laughter the best medicine and all that. It's Black Humour, in actual fact. It does not matter how many times I hear these reports of heinous, unconscionable, downright (microcosmically) evil doings by people who you'd take as knowing better, I just never, EVER, cease to be shocked, appalled, repulsed, fuming angry (albeit never let it affect my reasoning), etc.... Just - "ugh!". Says it all, doesn't it? "UGH (get thee behind me, Satan)!". Anyhoo, (really!) don't get me started... Describe something blister would be permitted to do/get away with, but not brother? And what about you - where do you fit into all that? And I'm going to, with this new light, ask you again about that door-slamming incident: Did he, or did he not, by the powers of normal human intellect, KNOW that the door would make contact forcefully with your face? Irrespective - 'Where to start': Why, at the very beginning as Julie Andrews would say ("spit-spot!"). For instance: 'Dear F**kface, [take it away, Lily!]............[lots of censoring beeps].......[more beeps]...........[etc]........... ........................................................................................................ ...'and another thing!....'............................................................................. 'So there, up your bum and round the corner! Warm Red Guards, Your daughter (- not pleased to meet you!)." Although, obviously, feel free to do your own version, LOL. ********* Re Holly: Tsk. So she's not had ENOUGH pain, then? Clearly not. Silly girl. Don't watch. You've got your own problems and, anyway, have done your bit. It's up to her from here, her funeral and all that. Alternatively, did you try this question: What sort of young man would go shopping for a new car and deliberately, willingly, gleefully choose the one that's worse for wear and needs a damn good session in the body-shop? Wouldn't happen, would it. SO WHAT SORT OF YOUNG MAN PURSUES OR ACCEPTS A GIRLFRIEND *OR EVEN A ONE-NIGHT-STAND* CANDIDATE WHO'S WORSE FOR WEAR AND NEEDS A DAMN GOOD SESSION IN THE BODY-SHOP? No offense to her, but - who'd knowingly (by which I mean, they can all smell it!) plump for a weakened one? In fact, she knows this, deep down. But - "damn her ovaries, damn them to hell!". Still, at least you know what to get her for Christmas, don't you? A Bob. (Battery Operated Boyfriend :-D) But seriously, she ought to know that with Narcs or the overly narcissistic, there IS no 'just a quickie'. They're quicksand. Even one toe-dip is potential lethal. So why go there rather than summon a piece of plastic of the BENIGN variety? Very insightful sum-up of her etiology, btw. And have just read your 'leave it to her counsellor' comment so - ignore above advice, you're ahead of me on that [gets knitting/power-drill out]. Couple of counselling sessions: Why does your mum 'keep' suggesting it? Are you irritable or is she reacting to your 'unusual' tearfulness? Or the ongoing anaemia? Or all three and then some? But let's try the Letter Of Wrath first. On here, if you please? Just asterisk, that's all I ask. Other than that, you have impunity. "Yeah me and my mum are getting a lot more closer, I feel like I'm about 5 when I do this but I have snuck into her room at night (she's normally awake) for a hug or to talk, she was a bit surprised at first and it's slowly turned into watching a tv series or a film." Oh, that's brilliant! :-) :-) :-) And it's not odd. I expect you two have got a lot of catching-up to do, what with all the door-slamming distractions, etc. What about Bother and Blister, is she playing catch-up and cuddly with them, too? Younger cuz is all eager to play Rescuer, eh? Yeah....Reminds me of son's first day at nursery and how the usual "don't leave me!" panicker/hysterical toddler of the class suddenly from that day forwards ceased all such activity by taking my now hysterical son under his wing. It's called meeting your needs through fulfilling somebody else's + your (canned) problems seeming a whole lot easier in comparison to someone else's (freshly picked). But that's not a problem in this context so - go for it. I imagine Auntie will find him a whole lot easier to handle afterwards (insist on commission ;-)), with yourself coming away having learnt a thing or two as well. Plus: " could go be nice or I might up coming home early!" - your boundaries and sense of power and independence are obviously ticketyboo, still. And that's right: if you're unimpressed, say it with your feet by marching straight out of there! :-) Here's a theory: what if....younger brother is angry all the time purely because his older sibling refuses to ever 'go there' or do so properly so won't discuss the past with him or help him with memories and, meanwhile, Auntie's had her own plate too full - equals, built-up frustration with nowhere to put or dilute it? If it transpires he basically, overall, wants to compare a whole load of notes with the three of you, then - there's your answer. If so, it'll be majorly bonding, rather than just a pleasant catch-up visit of little consequence, and you'll come away with a new bessie mate/sibling. :-) And, yes, Scopester is right - getting away *will* do you the power of good. Doh! Just realised you've been already. LOL! So - did he? Want to compare notes? And did you - bond? Back to crying: maybe you've got years-worth of banked-up tears and that's all? Better out than in, eh! As an alternative to one-on-one - have you checked out The Freedom Programme in your area? Am thinking you and your mum could go. And Auntie. Uckit - all of you! LOL But not the cat or the bunny-rabbit. ;-)

Good old Lesely Gore http://www.https//you.be/cYt3ptpAg60

https://www.you.be/cYt3ptpAg60 Or https://you.be/cYt3ptpAg60

Okay nevermind, obviously I do not know what I'm doing

LOL Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6KhXo13_H0 (So Johnny's obviously a complete creep-in-a-heap, then. Give her a year and she'll still be partying, while poor Judy's saddled with three kids in record time, barely any money to pay the electric, suffering a good backhander or two per month, and seeing signs all over the shop that Johnny's doing exactly the same to her. Rah-rah Judy, go get an iQ!) (What? Nothing... Just saying...) (LOL)

Weird! It's done it to me, too! Yet while I'm here typing, I can see the complete version of the link! And same goes for your own three! Weird. I'll tell Richard.

Okay so that's how you do it https://www.youtu.be/cYt3ptpAg60 I hope

Or not https://youtu.be/cYt3ptpAg60 Back to the drawing board

Got it! The one above works Song title That's the way boy's are.....

Ah, if the protagonist in 'It's My Party' is just a teenage or very early 20s boy, then, yes, he'll be in that naturally narcissistic phase, in which case - fairenoughski (assuming he grows out of it like he's supposed to). I doubt he is, though, going by the fact that 'Judy is wearing his ring'. (Pay attention at the back, there? ;-))

Scopester, "Man From Del Monte", he say, your links 'you.be' weren't considered secure so the forum auto-pilot said EW, NO FANKS!? Somehow, your 'tu' of 'tube' got lost in transit. Didn't you check your pockets? (Gosh, don't *I* sound all technical. Not.)

Hmmmm I thought the song theme was somewhat pertinent. While we were on the subject of "us men"/boys etc.... Or Lesely Gore It's my party and I'll cry if I want to Now it's Judy's turn to cry That's the way boy's are Maybe I know

I've had two counselling sessions at college now and it's been quite good, even though I had to explain whats happened all over again. I was also a bit worried about all the crying i was doing but not any more! My dad has given me and sibs money, considering how tight he is it's quite a lot, he then followed this gesture up with an email (to me) saying that he missed us, wants to talk properly and hopes he can see us in the Easter hols. I can't tell if he's slowly waking up or if he's after information again. BUT even if I did want to see him, I can't coz me and Tom and are going away, I'm almost relieved that I have a reason to not see him. I don't think it would be a good idea, as straight after the Easter hols I've got two weeks work experience, and I want to be not so stressed out. I also don't want his money, he can have that back, it annoys me that he thinks he can just chuck money at us and hope that we start talking to him again. With my dad, sis would get away with everything, she would throw tantrum and my dad would buy her a present to 'cheer her up' and she also used to enjoy winding bro up to get a reaction from him so that she could then go to my dad and get him int trouble and he would never ask for bro side of the story. Bro used also used to attention seek to try or compete with sis in something but sis got all the praise. I think i just wanted to please him so I was good. My mum is a tiny bit like aunty in that she took no crap and was always fair so thankfully sis hasn't turned into a brat and she now knows that it wasn't right. It feel like she was the real parents who know how to parent and all my dad didn't, and the only reason why i think he was like this was because his parents weren't that nice to him growing up and were also controlling. No i dont think he intentionally wanted the door to come into contact with me. I as arguing back eith him quite a lot and he didnt want to listen to me anymore. With Holly i'm not watching, still see and talk to her and I think she does know shes made a mistake because her and college boy have not seen each other again. My mum keeps suggesting counselling because she has noticed that im more tearful but she seems really, really anxious about everyone else. She's worried about me still being anaemic and thinks its worse then it is coz I have to have an ultrasound, so it does make me a little bit irritable when to tell me i look tired and pale but my dr isn't worried and seems to be doing everything she can. My mum and I watched Inside Out the other day thought it was a good film for her to watch too, and yeah shes also spending time with sibs too I was a bit nervous about going to stay with cousin tried to take one of the sibs with me but sis didn't want to come and i failed detach bro from his gf so i went alone but had a really nice time. We did bond and he did want to compare notes and I actually talked more openly with him then I have done with anyone. He also wanted to know that aunty was ok and if i thought she was happy/making the right choice in moving. I now think he's has actually been misunderstoodby everyone in the family and yeah he is just really frustrated coz no one will talk to him and I think hes a bit lonely. Doesn't seem to have a girlfriend and he's lives with a flat mate who drinks A LOT . Aunty did ask how he was so I did tell her and she's now making contact with him.

Scopes - nope, just boys like Johnny. He's clearly a Narc. I mean - do what?! They're in an exclusive and committed, presumably longish-term relationship (only Healthies appreciate and apply loyalty/monogamy, commitment and tenure) and yet, on her BIRTHDAY of all days (Narcs *love* to manipulate during and ruin special occasions/holidays) he gets engaged to a close friend of hers (Triangulation/Lilypad-leaping/Devaluing, Discarding - in the nastiest way possible) and then basically announces the engagement to her in front of her entire guests thus cruelly and agonizingly humiliating her? That is so hostile an (slightly veiled) act it beggars belief! You can't GET more narc than that! So, NO. That is not how all 'boys' are. (You know that, surely?) Have you been continuing your web studies, out of interest? *************************************************************** Lils, 1. Good, I'm so glad you're okay with crying now. Now note that you mustn't ever stopper a crying session, the process has to complete before you'll see the magic happen. It's okay if you accidentally fall asleep, though. In fact, probably best (so that all the filing gets done for you as you sleep and you wake up with the answer/clarity). 2. You cannot buy love or forgiveness. Accept no bribes. If you're not ready then how's about he RESPECT that? (How To manual in the post.) See how already I can see what he's up to? Lily, if he really, truly wanted to give you guys some sort of interim closure by coming clean about all the Whys and Wherefores - where would be the need for the monetary lure toward those whom would jump at the chance for such a cool drink of water in a Sahara of lies? Whom that has been shoved in the dark wouldn't willingly attend, just for that and only that? You'd all three be rushing at-once! GOTTIM! Guilty conscience made him do that, guilt from the fact of his being secretly aware of what else he secretly wants from the meeting (cake & eat it and to deal another blow to your mum). So you do know. That's why you put what you put about 'not being able to tell' (see how that works? - ACTIONS!...again) And you're right about everything in that paragraph, as per usual. Your instincts are consistently brilliant, you surely must have realised that at this late point? Different if this was a normal man and therefore a normal marital breakdown, thereby conducted in all the normal, mature, responsible, respectful, sensitive, healthy manly ways, of course. BUT IT IS NOT. So it requires a different ethos, procedure and methodology. And *seeming* counter-intuitiveness. It requires very different reactions, IOW. What you're instinctively doing is, No Contact. Go surf about the amazing benefits, to know what it is your jello was (clearly!) born knowing how and why to do. :-) Find all the labels to your magical powers, LOL (but seriously). 4. "she would throw tantrum and my dad would buy her a present to 'cheer her up' " Oh god. That's so 'golden child'. Reward for, thereby reinforcement of, bad, *bullying* behaviour that he can identify with and not take umbrage at. As a pervasive pattern worthy of mention. (And ditto the rest of your descriptive.) And, no, don't blame it on how his parents treated him because there are too many more people with parents like that who never rolled over and bought into/joined ranks with their brand of (non) reality. Only the weak kids end up doing that and in the process letting themselves become 'narcissised'. 5. So we now know without a shadow of a doubt, which parent is - because he always was - the problematic one and which has the correct and healthy, adult attitudes, don't we. And, I reiterate, we've also just established that this is no 'invasion of the body snatchers' situation. Your dad was always like this, always unreasonable, unfair, mean, *unnecessary*, etc., despite for a long while kept some sort of, as in, a modicum of, lid on it (...albeit, not any more). My own opinion is that he was always on the Healthy/Reality versus Unhealthy/Warped Reality fence, but now has finally given up the battle of trying to be normal and given into fully rolling over (onto the dark side). (Is that a Ping going off in your head?) Weren't nice to their own child and were noticeably controlling, eh? Do you want to name the puppy, finally, Lils? Or would you like to ask your mum, first, whether she, as a pervasive pattern, always felt - his worklife aside - that she in actual fact (to quote one of the famous symptoms) had *four* children? (You might have to wait a few days for a final confession because she might not have had anybody point it out to here before, but...I'd put money on the affirmative). 6. "No i dont think he intentionally wanted the door to come into contact with me." Unplanned, not calculated. Impulsive, then, and seemingly non-cleverly with it. ...Note. Could so easily have broken your nose, couldn't he? What then? 7. Your mum did take crap, Lils. She stayed for decades with him, albeit I understand perfectly the involuntary-compulsive reasons why. But never mind, at least she's woken up (thanks to his nuclear bomb in hers and your faces and entire lives as you knew it, but especially hers). She took crap by managing and countering the crap. (You wait until she does the usual 'Pheonix rising from the ashes'; you're going to be literally astounded at what she'll achieve and become! Your father, on the other hand, since he's chosen to really bed into those ashes, will continue to "drip-drip-drip" descend that downhill trajectory....to deteriorate without her good influence. This is what happens once they're without their "good cop" and "window dressing" in human spousal format (go surf about that phenomenon). Unless, of course, he at whatever point receives some almighty, painful sign as has him running to the nearest therapist's office, of course (because they're only 'incurable' while and through *not wanting* to be). Perhaps the almighty, painful sign would be losing the trust and connection with his children or firstborn? (Is this another instinctually Canny Lily Move I see before me?) 8. Holly's actions noted. Progress, i.e. her noteable recovery, will come in the form of this: 'You were right, Lily, and I'm in the middle of taking your advice'. She's still caught in La-La Land so too fearful of being straightforwardly, above-table honest (she's been trained to expect it to get her punished), and still too ego-shriviled to admit a 'superiority' over her on your part as would shrivel it further. She doesn't trust even you yet. But she will. When, not If. (I know that because of her earlier, massive act of bravery.) 9. Do I take it your doctor knows you're doing No Contact with your dad, to get your head straight and get 'tooled up' afore any 'confrontation'? Or could he/she have sensed it, given that they've seen enough patients in your predicament present with your sorts of symptoms and behaviour and then found out in hindsight about said predicament, as in 1 + 1 = 2? Is that why she's not worried - because she knows you'll naturally recover? Your anaemia is all your prior bottled-up negative emotions finally refusing to be bottles and coming out physically. It's normal and a good sign (toxins coming out). As you maintain literal No Contact - or certainly if ever you don't have any choice in the matter, Emotional No Contact (Grey Rock - mental dismissal/disconnection equalling zero emotional reactivity) - your body and brain will recover and becoming increasingly healthy. Lily, I'm going to tell you something you'd never have realised before and which "no'a'lo'a people know": If your father is/always was a ..."hmm-ffmm-hmph"... then you've never even met Real You before. Same for your mum and sibs. If you've grown up in a war-zone (pscyho-emotional version) then you've never seen yourself or how you operate in situation normal. You've only known War Zone Lily, etc. You'll have been in low-grade Fight Or Flight AS DAILY STANDARD (- yes, imagine, indeed!), with stress hormones galore infusing your entire system, your entire being...and you, always fighting-fighting off all the myriad effects (think walking everywhere with huge weights around your ankles or wading through treacle, and being constantly a bit nervy, a big 'high fidelity'... a bit PTSD). I bet you any money you like that you, too, are going to surprise and delight yourself. External early symptoms will include: said anaemia p*ssing off; hair and nails starting to strengthen and gleam like never before; better quality sleep; higher powers of intellect and judgement; natural gravitation towards and immense enjoyment of healthier foods; greater energy and joie de vivre; better menstrual cycle; faster healing from ailments and injuries.......on and on go the benefits. Just...Feeling massively lighter and more capable, like you've undergone an incredible upgrade. You just wait. :-) And yet, look at the amazing amount you've achieved DESPITE the treacle? So now imagine - no treacle. :-) 10. I suspect a soupcon of mum's worrying, however, is to give herself something alternative and healthy to focus on (think intermittent sunglasses to avoid snow blindness and provide eye relief). 11. What's your sister like now, in terms of acts of unfairness and injustice? Does she see for herself how his giving her special treatment, especially that translated to pain for your brother and you, was inappropriate and unacceptable - just plain WRONG? And were you aware, Lils, that the most abused familial role to be given is in actual fact that of Golden Child, not Scapegoat or Avoider/Distancer like everyone assumes? (Surfipoos time.) 12. " he's lives with a flat mate who drinks A LOT" Oh does he, indeed. So, in other words, there came a point where he realised the chap he was sharing his nest with was an alcoholic in need of serious therapy, of all seriously unhealthy, infective things, yet failed to p.d.q. move out? Who did he have to caretake as a kid? 13. Brilliant about that meeting bringing Auntie and he together again! :-) 14. Wait up a min....got to sneeze.............AH.......AH!........CHOOOO-WHERES-THAT-ANGRY-LETTER-OOOOOOO!!!! ;-) You do realise that just as one can redirect tears into anger, it's a two-way route?...that, pound-for-pound, anger's 'bigger/heavier' - more volumatic - and so releasing it saves on a HECK of a lot of mascara and Kleenex? Multiple crying sessions in one hit. More so (volumatic) if made to commit to it 'in public'. So... remembering that this is your safe place: "Dear F***face (the artist formerly known as My Father),..........................". Better out than in?..., mucking up your systems whereby it results in (in your case) Anaemia? This is one of the ways in which to legitimately speed up and shorten your grieving time and recover far sooner.

Yes Soulmate you are sooooo...correct. Not all boys are like that. I just like the song.

So me, my mum and sibs sat down and replied to my dads email . I didn't want to not reply and I wanted to let him know we are not accepting his money, and that I couldn't see him in the half term. I didn't want to risk upsetting my mum by just going ahead and doing it without talking to her first or reply on the sibs behalf either. We decided to reply together, it wasn't very long at all, just a civil reply, even though him making contact, sent us all off on an emotional rollercoaster again of anger and upset and (confusion, that was sis). My dad clearly didn't like our reply to his email because on wed, he decided to come round unannounced! I had a really, really horrible feeling that something like would happen since his email and I have always worried for a while that if he was in the area, he could drop by. Thankfully, my mum had the locks changed not long after he left and also I'm really relieved my mum and sibs were not home and didn't have to hear or witness everything! Was just Me, Tom and aunty at home, I was asleep in bed, ill, with nurovirus, ugh, not been that ill in a loooooong time, they were being dutiful aunty and bf and delivering water then running away again! Anyway I woke up to aunty shouting at someone, telling them to f**k off :^), was too ill to get up to find out what was going on, every time I moved I felt sick, so I had to lye and listen. I heard my dads voice shouting back and then Toms trying to calm both of them down. I almost felt worse/anxious just knowing he was outside trying to get in. Bit of a difficult situation for Tom (I'm really embarrassed to be honest ) to be in, but he dealt with in it in the right way, which was to obvs back aunty but he said he would of felt bad if he just stood there and done nothing. If He wasn't there I think my dad would of ignored aunty and walked in but eventually got the message and he and Tom ended up talking outside the house. My dad was apparently going on about how much he missed us and he just wanted to see us and he's cancelled all his appointments with patients so he can spend time with us. Tom said he was biting his toungue and he had to tell my dad firmly he was not going promise any contact (apparently my dad was trying to get him to make promises that would call) and he just waited and made sure he actually drove away :-/. Looks wise apparently my dad looks very withdrawn, tired and desperate for contact. Aunty admits she might of gone a little bit over the top with swearing at him but she said she saw him and felt very protective and the last thing she wanted was my mum to come home and see him there coz she didn't know how she would react or cope and my mum, when aunty told her, was shocked, disgusted, angry but I think also relived she didn't see him. I think it was important to her he didn't step inside, she's been doing a lot of throwing out/packing away anything that reminds her of him. She's gotten rid of like their bed, and for a smaller double one coz apparently she's planning on not sharing a bed with another man for a long time, her words and I'm pleased she's not even considering looking for a new partner yet. she's in the middle of redecorating 'her' bedroom. Looks therapeutic I want to do the same (to my room). So that was horrible for everyone. Maybe I should of gone down stairs and given my dad a big, long hug and breathed all over him, to make him ill then told him to F off and enjoy my virus. It's made my angry letter that I'm not going to send to my dad quite easy to write sort of still feeling rubbish but outlined it would go like this: Dear F*ckface, You are a selfish, cheating, f**king b*sted, Was going to write I don't know who he is anymore and that I don't trust him................................ ..........When you do eventually wake up from this it will probably be too late................ F*ck you,hope you enjoy you're new life with your haggard gf (looks really old for her age). From your daughter Needs more swear words. I did talk to my mum about living in a war zone and if it felt like my dad was a fourth child and she agrees and admits it. We're looking forward to discovering the real 'us'. She also said it was tiring because she tried to make sure she stuck up for bro and make sure his confidence wasn't damaged. Have talks with my dad telling him to grow up and stop favouring sis and Try to do any discipline, to stop my dad from throwing his tantrums at us because she was scared it would damage us or one day he would actually lash out at us. And when he did spoil sis she'd try to make it up to me and bro to make it even and make sure sis didn't turn into a little diva which she did successfully. Sis now knows that it very unfair and wrong, that she got special treatment from my dad. It very, very, rarely comes up on conversation, but if it does she looks embarrassed. Yeah doc does know I'm not on talking to my dad for the moment, I get asked about it think she's making sure I'm not depressed or going that way. It's cousins flat but I think he finds it hard in asking his flat mate to leave because they were good friends until he had a drinking problem and new they're just civil. He's coming to stay this weekend so hopefully he'll still be the same.

Lils, I shall bust a gut to respond to your post, tomorrow. I want to be able to give it my fullest attention.

I think it's good that you've all instinctively recognised the wholly sensible and self-preservationist need to 'stay out of his crosshairs' and, where he's concerned, 'quarantine' yourselves in order to give yourselves the time and space to heal to a critical point, and that you're all affirming your allegiance by acting as one. What a team already, eh? :-) And why wouldn't you be, when you're all victims of his, all affected and susceptible by his influence and effect (even Tom, in a way, if you think about it?). Psych fact: there is nothing more instantly, deeply bonding than a common 'enemy'. Shouldn't *be* a case of enemy. But he's making it that way so... It's not just a very testing experience, but a very PROVING one as well. You get to see what everyone is truly made of, not just him. Extreme pressure does tend to do that. Think Barium drink before a scan. But I'm *especially* impressed with how you yourself behaved and handled this, young lady. *Like* a lady and a diplomat! Gold Star! You're all too good for him - do you know that? ...Calibre and mettle-wise. I think he does...and always did...as was part of the problem (as he saw it). I think in the back of his mind, he's only all too aware that if he leaves you all be for 'too long', you'll get over him in nanoseconds, in terms of ceasing to be upset-able by anything he does, says, fails to do, tries on, etc., ever again. And he can't have that because you're all his trusting, over-eager safetynet (his perception) in case his affair goes "pleugh!" at any point. Obviously, in with that will be his healthier portion, the dad figure, wanting to see his kids. But the madnesses are always in the methods and degrees, and in this case, he did a Queen of Hearts: 'I want to see you. You don't want to see me. I win!'. Me-Me-Me (And Sod You). And - oh my...somebody seems to have a superiority complex, note. We can all "not like" being told No vis-a-vis asking to see someone, can't we. Even someone we've sh*t on from a very great height and hugely upset, un-anchored, de-stabilised,...*traumatised*, thereby whom would want to be given serious space. But that doesn't mean we have so little guilt, sympathy and respect as to *force* ourselves onto them, does it? Surely anyone with an ounce of common sense can appreciate how desperate and/or close to snapping, a wife, two daughters and son must be to refuse to see their own (still) husband and father? *Caution*, in the form of backing off and giving them time to calm down, would be the only sane measure. Begs the question, Is he trying to smooth things over or keep them ruffled? Answer's obvious, isn't it (unless he really is Forrest Gump). A healthy person would realise the magnitude and meaning in that act and think better of pushing it, for fear it'd too easily end up being like trying to put out a fire using a nuclear missile. How characteristic to deal with a fire by creating another, bigger one...and so on and so forth (usually). All I can assume, Lily, is that this kind of over-ruling, over-riding, riding roughshod response is a habit of his, despite might have expressed in whatever ways, at a more subtle, elusive, unnoticable level. Or perhaps you did all used to notice, but couldn't afford not to let him get away with it, unlike today? Say, in case he had another paddy or just in *some* way made either or all of you pay? RSvP. How is swearing - saying mere words, loudly - at someone who's just traumatised an entire family, over-reactive? Hardly?! You all feel this way because it's how humans are programmed to feel in such a situation. Nothing that you guys are doing is wrong or abnormal. It just feels like it is or might be, because the incoming stimulus and assaults are abnormal. You're all behaving normally to abnormal behaviour. You're normal (he's not). And, again, doing REALLY WELL! This is his bed. Now he can lie in it. It's funny how life and people work like that, eh. ;-) Must be something in it, lol. Auntie obviously is that angry at him because he fed her lies for ages and made a mockery of her attempt to counsel and mediate. She's thereby recognised that that man, certainly at this juncture, is emotionally dangerous as far as you guys are concerned. I'll say that again because it's what you've shown you too recognise: EMOTIONALLY DANGEROUS. So she has a *perfect right* to defend her kin against their antagonist/assailant. So tell her from me: Call that swearing? Try harder next time. ;-p As for your letter: excellent start, considering you'd have been emotionally knackered at that point. (It's a big thing, cutting someone out whom your whole life you've never had to cut out before and aren't used to not seeing and taking for granted, presence wise, every day. And yet, at the same time, a little thing. That's one of the reasons it's so confusing as leaves you in two minds.) Eager to see the next draft. Don't worry about them being there to hear and see everything, though. They're not alone. They've got you. And Auntie. And one another. This is family-sized gym equipment, Jim, just not as we know it. You *all* need the opportunity to strengthen in the face of him *and* to strengthen at the same rate (which you in part achieve via the continual insults) SO THAT if ever he gets one of you alone, said individual will be however much impervious to the manipulation attempts, whatever flavour (tantrum, threat, pity ploy, love-re-bombing). Capiche? "United we stand. Divided we fall". Stay united, share everything (Speak Your Thoughts machines), continue to think and act as one. There is might in numbers and, as opposed to safety in numbers, the former doesn't rely exclusively on the physical presence of one's teammates/allies at the pertinent moment. Because it's psychological. So, thus cornered - in your head you've your whole family 'there' and will speak and act (i.e. self-defend) accordingly. Put more simply: confidence of conviction and right to self-defend. If he does that sort of thing again - tries to steamroller your rightful requests/demands - throw a bucket of cold water over him from an upper window (it's not illegal, doncha know, because it causes no actual damage, just inconvenience plus humiliation). No Contact reveals whether the individual concerned is a Narcissist (no future hope) or simply Narcissistic Flea-Ridden (hope). "Separation" is a godsend, despite the entire concept ultra-scary. Until you do it. And no doubt you're all *feeling* its therapeutic effect already - *hence* unanimously electing to maintain it and not let him visit. Correct? (I've had the Norovirus, by the way. Yeah...tell me about it! All better now?) Re Tom's intervention: sorry - why are you embarrassed? Embarrassed about what - WHAT? Me no unnderstandee. (Do really, but I want you to. ;-)) "Looks wise apparently my dad looks very withdrawn, tired and desperate for contact." Yeah, well...? He can go get it from his mistress, then, can't he. (I mean, either I'm blind or - hasn't he just freely elected to replace all of you with her, CHOSEN her over you? Well, go get your replacement hugs, then!, is what I say.) OR he can terminate that relationship (and job, i.e. cut her out of his life completely), followed by informing you all - with actual proof that they're not just words you all want to hear - and then wait for your answer, no matter how long the wait according to what each of you need, repeat, *need* (thanks to him). Again - his bed. And he can't have *both*. Because they're mutually exclusive (in this cruel, La-La Land, family-smashing situation, I mean). In time you'll adjust and calm down, and maybe be ready to start seeing him again. Or maybe you won't (he presumably foresaw the risks?). But in the meantime, you're allowed to feel how you feel, including self- and pack-protective, and behave and act accordingly. If he hasn't even got the understanding, insight and empathy to appreciate *that* no-brainer, and take his enforced wait (consequence) on the chin, then - God help him (and God breathe a sigh of relief for you lot for what it'll spell out). No Contact, i.e. gaining emotional distance to where one can think straight and finally see the woods for the trees, really is a win/win situation. If family (victim) ostracisation doesn't pull him up sharp and into a changed man - NOTHING will! Re the mistress: she's less haggard with a job stuffed in her otherwise empty bra, if you know what I mean. But who cares (clearly not him) - she's just the 'ferryman'. He'll be playing her for all he's worth, don't you worry. Really liking all the meaty signs of progress in your mum, and the fact there are so many of them, by the way. :-) And I agree - you should *all* give your rooms a facelift. Even just rearrange your furniture. The more unrecognisable, the better. It removes the ghosts. Bad enough someone's died on you. You don't need their spirit lurking in every corner, jumping out and going "Boo!", do you. Again - very sensible moves...very survivalist. And I agree you heard the ultimate sign, about her not wanting to be with another man for a long time off. TICK! Bro was the Scapegoat, then? Yes, the research does show that where the man is unhealthy and to whatever degree, abusive, the son(s) will be targets first and foremost...trying to pass the chauvenistic and angry baton on. I guess that explains why bro's just 'not going there', whatsoever. He'd taken more sh*t 'n nonsense over the years, his bucket was full already, now overflown... no two minds for him. And, listen, if your mum was worried your father's tantrums could damage your young minds or that he too often was "this close" to getting physical in anger/frustration, then we are talking SERIOUS TANTRUM-ING AND 'UPSIDE-DOWN'-NESS (warped messages/lessons)! Can you and your mum please look at Jennifer Smith's entire website on Sociopaths - just to rule it out? https://www.truelovescam.com/category/a-con-man-is/ It's almost exclusively focused on Sociopathy in the romantic and family context (but ignore the 'some people call them Narcissists' bit; they're separate breeds with actual, visible wiring differences, despite the seemingly matching attitudes and behaviour; the differences lay in the details; remember: a Narc can love you but BOY DOES IT HURT!, whereas a Sociopath is a user/exploiter almost exclusively.) And - warning- if the descriptions and explanations seem to hit the mark far more closely and deeply than all the blurb on NPD exclusively, your mother should make haste at looking into the marital finances, to see whether and, if so, for how long, he's been exploiting her financially (e.g. squirrelling money behind her back, courtesy of a falsely cited salary; claiming tax on her somehow and not sharing the spoils; having made her pay for too much, claiming poverty at the time...that sort of thing). If he has, she needs to alert her solicitor to move fast so that he lacks time to hide the true picture regarding the size of pot up for divvying, come the financial hearing part of the divorce proceedings. More importantly, she'll want to ensure her solicitor has experience of narcissistic divorces. Because you'd be surprised at how cunning and devious they are when it comes to duping even the court judge(s). Just - better safe than sorry and all that. After all, it's not cheap, paying a mortgage simultaneously with renting a separate place and basically financing another life (and romantic dating life). What I mean is - would your mother have predicted he could seemingly so easily afford all of those extras on what, as far as she knew, was his annual salary after family etc. expenses? Has her solicitor applied to the court for Interim Maintenance yet? Going by those signs, I reckon she's ready for that. Re Sis: good, phew! Ditto the doc. But I'd put it more like this: to ensure that you don't get *too* depressed. After all, Depression is a bona fide, very necessary phase of grieving. We wouldn't want it stunted or stifled or your recovery will get dragged out. Here's the truth of the matter: you'll all have been manipulated into being addicted to him. In order to go Cold Turkey successfully in the shortest time possible, you need a "Methadone". Pick something healthy and productive to transfer your addiction to. Such AS, giving the nest a new look; getting into healthier eating; going to the gym together...whatever. Anything really appealing and diverting that helps with recovery and keeps all your eyes looking forward (eyes on the prize). Re cousin: it appears you've lost one family member and gained another! :-) Course. It's safe enough to come out, now. :-) :-) :-) Anyhoo. I'm not worried about any of you AT...ALL! Bravo. Seriously. You could teach a lot of other victimised families a thing or two, I reckon! Definitely keep keeping me posted.

Well, I thought we were all on the same page and working well as a team too, but I came back from hol to a bit of tension, sis was being difficult and argumentative...and still is. My dad has been contacting her and she's been communicating back. Shes saying like ' no one can stop her from having a relationship with him' and she won't be controlled, to me it doesn't sound like her, she knows right from wrong. I think my dad is telling her this and she's just repeating it back to us. He knows, out of all of us she's the one he can talk her round and manipulate and it's confusing her or making her question and doubt what we are currently doing . My mum has been talking to her but sis very defensive and I would try but she's avoiding me at the moment. Will wait till it feels right. My dad has also sent my mum an email, she won't say what it's about at the mo or if it was civil, she wanted to discuss it with her counsellor. Not too sure if I want to know. I really don't like how he's trying (still) to worm his way back in). Just one thing...My counsellor at college has told me that when I do eventually feel ready/strong enough to make contact again with my dad, I should feel no anxiety what so ever, and if I do then I shouldn't be meeting up with him because the timing wouldn't be right. She thinks I should be confident, so if he says something that upsets me or makes me angry, I should just be able to shrug it off and walk away unhurt. I understand what she's saying, think it's easier said then done coz I worry quite a lot about most things in general, so I'm not sure if this is achievable and if it is, it's going to be a looonnngg time. And I'm not too sure how long I want it to be :-/. Thanks for the website, it is really helpful, both me and my my mum have looked at it (still reading) and she says she recognises a few of the signs in him, partially the he doesn't want a wife he wants a mother. And shes always wondered about his mental health, when he's said and done/said some very weird things but she's always let them go. She's also taken a lot of he advice from the website too She's also going to into the money side of things straight away incase he's been trashing some aside because she's not convinced that he can afford the rented house that he hardly ever stays in, bills etc. I really hope he's not done :-|. My mum has also done another positive thing, which is apply for a headteacher role in a different school. I did change my room around and painted it, there was a not so nice memory attached and it I was really beginning to bug me. Around 3 years ago my dad redecorated my room and he said I could have it in what ever colour I wanted. Then when it came to buying the paint in the shop, he totally changed his mind and he picked the colour himself :-|, then shouted at me when I tried to argue with him (doesn't care about public humiliation at all) ar*ehole. Was a bigger job then I thought! but it felt like I was erasing the memory as I was doing it. He did this kind of thing to me, bro and my mum too, where he would promise us something then change his mind at the very last minute and do it his way. Yeah, I'm all better now thanks and managed not to give it to anyone else. Yep, I can see that Tom is also a victim because he had a good relationship with my dad and now it's changed and he's angry too and he sees how its effected us all individually too and is quite good at picking up on things (mainly with bro and sis). Dunno, I was just embarrassed that he felt he had to step in and in a way stand up to my dad...cringe. But even if I hadn't been unwell I don't think I would of let my dad see me. He brought me a punch bag, which is good for raging angry moments and everyone else has been using it too. even aunty. Erm, completed angry letter not done as yet ...

I got an update, things have changed again. My dad had begged my mum to take him back, think that was what the email was about, not entirely sure but there was some communication going on between them. She's told him no, it's too late and that she's realised she's a lot happier without him. I want her to be happy, so if that's how she feels and I really believe that she does, then I'm ok with it and I don't wish or hope for them to get back together. My dad on the other hand is not in a good way at all...it's been really worrying. after he realised that everything he tried, failed, it clearly woke him up a bit and he's started to realise what he's actually done. He's not gone back to gf since Easter, he's been staying on his rented house, so I'm not sure if they are still together anymore... I now understand that she's probably been messed around too. He has confined in a gp friend, who is also a family friend and he has informed my mum that my dad needs professional help and that he believes he's had a break down and that he shouldn't be on his own as he's capable of doing something stupid so gp friend has been with him. When I heard that, part of me really wanted to go and stay with my dad but it's not poss for me to do that or a good idea I don't think. Gp friend is going to arrange help asap. I feel sad and shocked coz it's my dad and I obviously want him to get better. I knew he was unwell but I don't think I realised how unwell or how serious it could get until this last week. But hopefully with help he'll get better.

Oh dear LILS always after it's too late it seems. Lets hope dads treatment helps him pull through this.

Hi, I'm back - bloody finally! I so wish I could explain why the long posting absences but - data protection and all that. "Meh". Hope you're okay bearing with me while other things in my life have hotted up again, over-busyness wise? ****** Point by point... 1. Re your sister: YES it would be better if she could stay away from his clever lies and manipulation, enough to become wise to him, thereby largely impervious. But this is her journey. The happier news is - truth outs. Always. When, not If. Analogy: it's a hard-inflatable football that the liar is attempting to hold underwater, enough distance from the surface so as to remain non-visible, whilst stood in the sea. Think about all the variables which could have him losing his grip and the football SHOOTING UP with great speed and force, and (usually) hitting him in the jaw/face. An unanticipate-ably powerful wave that suddenly knocks him off-balance, without time to compensate. Eventual loss of concentration through the tedium of having to stand there exerting his concentration powers plus this downward force with his arms, whilst having to keep adjusting his balance or grip to suit the current and waves. Someone coming up from behind and punching it out of his grip. Falling asleep on the job. Nightttime drawing in (does he really want to stand in that cold sea overnight - again and again and again)? See what I'm saying? It will not be kept down and so keeping it down is hard, hard work. Liars lie *to avoid* the proper, usual, hard work. Lying is cheating (at). Truth Outs. When, not If. It could be something as simple as, his making certain promises but somehow never keeping them or denying he ever made them. Without the rest of you lot to 'share his manipulation around on', meaning, her getting all of it, it won't take long for her to wake up to him and realise that remaining in close contact is bad for her, and that he disappoints, insults, frustrates, angers, disturbs her, more often than not. Let her make her own discovery if that's what she insists on doing. For all you know, however much a part of it is her using this situation as a medium for a spate of good ol' early teen rebellion. She gets to say NO (and you can't make me)!, to your mum, without too much, if any, reprisal. PS: She's avoiding you, specifically, I suspect, because your powers of persuasion with regards 'how it is' are, to her, that much more convincing than your mum's. So - good, correct instinct to wait, yet again. Another thing you don't know - she might be capable of manipulating him back or counter-manipulating the eff out of him! :-) She does have new, adult claws and muscles to flex and exercise, eh! She can take her teen moodies out on him, leaving the rest of you in relative peace, eh! :-D Some do, you know? Time will tell. 2. Oh, did he. Can't say I'm surprised he's tried, figuratively-speaking, climbing in through a downstairs window, given that the front door went unanswered. Clearly, your mum can't explain it (yet) so needs help with its 'translation' before can issue that family memo. Ditto how she then is free to feel about it. I'm betting that, in it he's tried to pass some of the blame (or even *all*, some of them!) for his own choices and behaviour, onto your mum so that she'll feel she has to forgive him. She probably wants the counsellor's opinion with regards to where he might be sincere and where he's spouting manipulative BS (- they don't always tell straight lies, frequently, they're lies wrapped around a small kernal of truth, as then lends plausibility towards credibility). 3. Your college counsellor is spot-on. You have to (ideally) *genuinely* feel this and only this reaction: YEAH, WHA'EVERRRR (...childish idiot). Or there's this golden oldie: EEEEE-YUCK (...ridiculous tw*t). My favourite is (said out-loud): This is my "I really believe you face" [use your imagination re the expression I pull, LOL ;-)], sometimes adding, "No, *really*, I do". Taking the piss works superbly, as well...with phrases such as, 'Orr....just STAB her!?'. If you're non-manipulable, you cease to be good Narcissistic Supply (ego feeder/booster) they either avoid *you* or, if they can't, distance themselves mentally and cease trying anything much at all and turning their attentions to someone easier to dupe/manipulate, instead. Re how long: Don't have any expectations, let your inner animal run this, its exclusive show (let your feet do the deciding). Again, it seems to be very canny and clever as far as I can tell. 3. " partially the he doesn't want a wife he wants a mother." RIGHT, THEN! Prescription: Sandra L Brown's "How To Spot A Dangerous Man (Before You Get Involved)'. Disgard the Before bit, doesn't matter in this instance. This is just about identifying his specific type. There are loads, belonging to Sub Type Vulnerable versus Grandiose (or mixture of the two by whatever degrees....just to make things extra complicated). PS: If he still wants a mother more than a wife, he either didn't have one or had too much of one (and became addicted to the attention and lack of boundaries/consequences, etc.). 4. "I really hope he's not done Speechless." Me too. But it's perfectly provable in court and via any Hildebrand Evidence (mum's own private detective doings). That's where the forensic barrister comes in (some lawyers are both, some sub-contract that part). Also tell her to start keeping receipts and records per month for absolutely *every* expenditure, no matter how 'trivial' (it all adds up). Even that pack of Tic-Tacs (record it on a post-it note if there's no receipt). And/Or that cash-only/discount for cash window cleaner/gardener/handyman. And to shop and spend as normal, even if you guys have all lost your appetites or your enthusiasm for days out, etc. and you end up wasting things. It's all to easy for a (cough) non-sharing, caring type to take a 'snapshot' of monthly expenditure during these extenuating circumstantially low expenditure months and use those as 'proof' for securing 'himself' an Interim Maintenance amount of, say, £700 pcm when the reality during Situation Normal is more like £1000. That way, you can't all be left short and having to take a loan to carry you through until court-ordered Settlement stage. Again, these things may not be inevitables, but this is about prevention-type protection (mantras: if he can, the question is not Will He?, but Why Wouldn't He? and Now Guilty Until Proven Innocent). 5. "My mum has also done another positive thing, which is apply for a headteacher role in a different school." Ku. DOS! The feet say: I'm getting ready to become mum & dad both; head of household; sole provider; (and too busy for a love-life). 10/10. Your mother's clearly a Weeble. Weebles wobble but they don't fall down (go Google). :-) She wouldn't have done THAT, if not for your dad's nuclear bomb (after a marital lifetime of smaller missiles), EH! 6. "Around 3 years ago my dad redecorated my room and he said I could have it in what ever colour I wanted. Then when it came to buying the paint in the shop, he totally changed his mind and he picked the colour himself Speechless, then shouted at me when I tried to argue with him (doesn't care about public humiliation at all) ar*ehole...He did this kind of thing to me, bro and my mum too, where he would promise us something then change his mind at the very last minute and do it his way." There it is! (..."There it is, what took us sooo loo-oo-ooooong, ooooh, to find this giant-clue bay-ay-beee") (Shalamar) (before your time, but not mum's). Here - Little Blister? That's what you've got coming. Lots and lots and lots of it. (Watch her too quickly start to turn Green, Lils, increasingly becoming 'too busy this week, dad, sorry".) (Yes, I recall that hit, 'I Did It My Way'. It's usually followed swiftly by, 'All By Myself', LOL.) 7. Speaking of Green: what colour did you choose for your room? Does Tom like it? 8. Good, glad you're better (and liking your social and moral responsibility, there...Karma Kredits coming your way...). 9. *WHY* were you embarrassed that Tom had to step in? Not used to someone taking that much care of you, per chance?...not your Comfort Zone? News for you: it was always an Comfortable Uncomfortable Zone. Let Tom spoil you if he wants to, protect if he wants to, expend effort on you if he wants to. It's him working his mental muscles, the Glutus Romanticis Maximumus muscles (lol, I made that up) ("no, REALLY?!", says Lils). 10. Would *have*. You're confusing it for its abbreviation, 'Would've'. Write it out 100 times, please, thank-you, or I'll have to mark you down. (;-D). PS: Show your workings. (I'm making myself laff, that's the main thing.) 11. "[He brought me a punch bag, which is good for raging angry moments] and everyone else has been using it too. even aunty." :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D ...STOP!!! I thought this was a serious, live situation, not a situation comedy!!! That is too funny! Do you all play the theme tune to Rocky as you do it? :-D Very healthy, I approve. Anyway - who did, who bought it - Tom? 12. Okay (letter). Don't worry - when you're ready. I won't let you forget [heh-heh]. *************** (update) 13. "She's told him no, it's too late and that she's realised she's a lot happier without him." If that's how she feels (clearly), then - CASE CLOSED! Can you please give your mother a giant High Five from me (- 'me', being 'some friend of yours lives down past that pub, you don't know him/her...blah-blah'). And I'm not congratulating her for that decision based on where it'll lead (because it might not, or might not yet). I'm talking purely in terms of having freed her mind of his currently/erstwhile unhealthy influence. She's right not to believe this alleged sudden change of heart. It's TOO SOON for him to have had some giant epiphany. If he's to change his ways, he needs to undergo the requisite Sufferance. However! He always has the floor, in that regard, for, over the coming months/year, CHANGING HER MIND, BIG-FAT-EH. Oh no, Lils! He'll have to RE-EARN her love, start from scratch, oh no. Put his Best Foot forward, followed by his Better Foot...aaand keep it up until it becomes indelible HABIT. Oh no! (Tick!) Even if that happens - he's not just moving straight back in. Not until they've dated for an appropriate length of time, etc. :-) Is he capable? Does she/will she even want to let him try? Watch that space ("dann-dann-daaaan!"). As for your wanting her to do whatever is best for her: good on ya, again, gal! Isn't your mum lucky to have a daughter like you? Once the dust settles, she'll be able to see that more than ever before. You and she are going to end up ROCK SOLID! Actual Friends For Life. 14. "My dad on the other hand is not in a good way at all...it's been really worrying. after he realised that everything he tried, failed, it clearly woke him up a bit and he's started to realise what he's actually done. He's not gone back to gf since Easter, he's been staying on his rented house, so I'm not sure if they are still together anymore... I now understand that she's probably been messed around too." Good. The suffering will, as I say, be good for him, might snap him out of it (genuinely, permanently, I mean) - if there's any snapping-out-of to be had, obviously. I also reiterate that it's just too soon for him to genuinely, meaningfully, lastingly, mean what he says and not just slide back into old ways after a quick burst of best behaviour. And anyway, playing Devil's Advocate/my usual cynical self: re not having gone back to gf since Easter: says who? Him? (Mantra:) I asked the liar if he was lying and he said, No. Got it? Where's the PROOF? After all, we had all the evidence that he was with that woman, didn't we? So what's so hard about proving they're no longer together or seeing each other? And how is that do-able/comfortable, given that they're now, daily, WORK COLLEAGUES? How do we know *she* hasn't chucked *him*? Or that they've just had a tiff ...And so on. Tan-ucking-fastic if it's all true. But...'Guilty until proven Innocent'. So this is a big job he's got on his plate [scuse pun], isn't it. Let's see him really fight, really sweat blood and tears for 'the love of his life', shall we? 15. "I now understand that she's probably been messed around too." Oh, yeah. She'll have had all the 'my wife doesn't understand me', BS. (Answer: No, mate. In actual fact, the trouble is, your wife understands you ALL TOO WELL!) 16. "He has confined in a gp friend, who is also a family friend and he has informed my mum that my dad needs professional help and that he believes he's had a break down and that he shouldn't be on his own as he's capable of doing something stupid so gp friend has been with him. When I heard that, part of me really wanted to go and stay with my dad but it's not poss for me to do that or a good idea I don't think. Gp friend is going to arrange help asap." Well, that all sounds characteristically emotionally blackmailing, pressuring and, basically, highly manipulative to me. What about you - what did you think? Here's some of what I think: So why hasn't GP friend already got him instated in psychotherapy and meds? Why say, he NEEDS it? What - still? What a crap friend and GP, then! What's this oh-so-helpful professional friend waiting for - your mother's permission? Breakdown. He had a breakdown of *inhibitions*. Me, I prefer the kind of mid life crisis that sends them to a car showroom, exiting in some ridiculously inappropriate, shiny new sportscar (looking befittingly like a sad desperado) or a hair transplant...gym....new, challenging hobby/study subject.... Ya get me? His root problem is not that he's 'having a breakdown'. His problem is his character and moral deficiency. Wasn't HE lucky that his particular breakdown provided such cushy pleasures? Gosh, what a wholly rewarding 'breakdown' to have had! YA GET ME? Course you do. I could be wrong (pff). Let him, via his coming weeks' behaviour, prove me wrong, then. Because... ...OH, NO ("DANN-DANN-DAAAAAAN!") - 'DO SOMETHING STUPID! Quick, Mum - only you can save him!!! (is your ego getting fed Heroin again?...getting nicely hooked again yet, Mum?) And the clock is ticking ("EEE!-EEE!-EEE!" (scary tension music)). How's about - HE should save him! No? "Ma-mma" [sucks thumb]. Sorry - WHAT 'NEW & IMPROVED' MAN AND ATTITUDE AS PER THIS (ALLEGED) MONUMENTAL DAWNING AND REALISING? Case closed (although I *could* have gone on...and on....and on.... You know me, LOL). Let's see his GP friend *arrange* that help, shall we? AND for said mental health professional to confirm, indeed, that 'summat's wrong with 'im', shall we?....lest we conclude that said friend has been duped (go re-Google "Flying Monkey") by dad's Bafta Award-winning performance on the violin. Here (s/he said, going on and on anyway LOL): Wasn't dad worried that being so downright pathetic might turn mum off? (Curioser and curiouser, said Alice.) WHERE'S THE WOOING, WHY THE VIOLIN INSTEAD? Answer: faster...in fact, this 'suicidal' case, UTTERLY INSTANT... innit. 17. "But hopefully with help he'll get better." See? You aren't really sad and shocked, bar that knee-jerk responding to manipulation. Because you ended with, But let's wait a bit - for some proof. :-) High Five to you, too, Lilster. HOMEWORK (you and Mum): go Google something like, 'full list of Narcissistic Hoovering Techniques' and don't stop until you find The Full Monte, including that one up there - which is called, The Pity Ploy. This is a set play and script, I repeat, a set, very well-worn SCRIPT.

Hi, Yeah, I'm ok bearing with you whilst you're being busy...hope it's a good busy whatever you're doing. We've been away for the bank hols :-) just my mum, sibs and me, was nice and def needed, did lots bonding/talking. sis has calmed down a bit now, and I think she's realised on her own what was happening. But It would not surprise me one bit if she was manipulating my dad back. My dad is currently having counselling in a posh clinic, of course he had to go somewhere expensive, looks more like a hotel, has a swimming pool and everything...I've done my research :-) . There was all this talk about him going and staying there as an inpatient but that ain't happened yet, I'm not sure it's going to, I reckon that was all talk, to try and grab our attention and make us feel sorry him . My mum has told gp friend to stop giving her Information about my dad, he started doing it daily until she made it very clear that it wasnt change anything. Apart from trying to contact bro around his bday and send him a present (which still remains unopened) my dad hasn't tried again (yet). Did feel sorry for bro, he had a cr*p bday last year coz of what's going on so me and his gf did a party for him he has more friends/ is liked by people who wants to be his friends, then he realises. Erm no, there is no actual proof that he's left gf or that he's not living in his rented place all the time. And I can't be bothered to drive the 50 mins journey to go and see if it's true. If there is any truth then I bet he wished he was closer, where as I'm quite pleased he's not near by. I do now really understand properly what counsellor was saying to me. At the moment I'm making myself busy and feel a tiny bit more relaxed, there's still anger but it's less. Punch bag has been really good, but going to have to stop soon before I turn into muscle women, yes tom did buy it for me, he's been buying books and doing lots of reading on this too. Painted room yellow, blues and greens seemed too cold and not a pink person. Added a few purple and grey things and it's all come together nicely, so not so nice memory gone. Yep tom does like it says it's more me. I also got sis to do me some drawings and she did 5 (didn't ask for five) ) diffident sketches...they're quite random, but very good and I've framed them. It seemed like it was a good distraction for her. Going to start working on Saturdays at the counselling place I did work experience at just doing admin and stuff :-) I nearly didn't let the person finish the sentence when they asked me. Its gd coz it fits around biz and it's very laid back as in if I can't do one Saturday then it's ok. My mum and I are currently doing homework.

Mostly good, thanks, but at times a mixed bag. I was away Bank Hol as well - "London By The Sea" with a friend who (luckybicz!) has a sea-view pad there. Amazing weather, amazing time, ate al fresco (Monkfish Calamari = s*x in the mouth) overlooking the sea then got p*ssed as farts (only 2 glasses for me) (I'm a cheap date, LOL) before joining in with a couple of street performers, LOL. Even got a bit of a tan. ******** 1. Interesting we agree Lil Blis thought she could handle the challenge of outfoxing him. Can't both be wrong? 2. I'm sure you did do your research. You're a 'do your research' type of gal. That's what makes you different from the norm, more so these days than ever. (Don't ever touch that dial.) Oh, yes, only the best for a bona fide or 'just visiting' Narcy-Narc, eh. And sh*t 'n shoddy for everyone else. You don't have to tell me, my gal. I knows 'em. And I knows 'em well. More's the pity. (For them.) And yes (all talk)....usually is. I mean, why do the work if you can just spout hot air or at a push, a few effortless gestures? That's their 'thinking'. Did you manage to find out how much it's costing him - AND YOUR MOTHER (let's not forget)? Has she booked her free legal consultation yet? 3. But that's the thing: I'm sure he *is* genuinely suffering. But not for all the right reasons like your healthy person who feels badly remiss and ashamed of themselves, gagging to sort things out and make amends, etc. It's purely SELF-pity. Here's *true* Sorriness: the protagonist doesn't do the evil deed to begin with because even the mere thought of it is too shame-inducing. BOOM! 'Fool me once - shame on you. Fool me twice - shame on me.' (- to add to all the other mantras). ********** By the way, have you watched "Frasier" yet? Channel 4 (and probably on Catch-Up by now). All about various types of personalities, perps and victims both, in La-La or Post-La-La Land, but mostly your Benign Narcs. Highly witty script. Central characters Frasier (apt-to-be self-centred but empathetic radio phone-in psychiatrist), brother Niles (neurotic and compulsive psychoanalyst), father Martin (retired cop/disappointed, once-overly-insensitive dad) and Daphne (pragmatic but somewhat naive English physiotherapist-come-housekeeper). Here's a taster: Frasier: ...What article did you win for? Niles: A GRIPPING case history of a Narcissistic Opera singer. I called it, 'Me-Me-Me-Me-Me!'. :-D All the other characters are equally hilarious. Non-stop banter all the way. The humour would probably be a tad too sophisticated and/or fast-paced for your younger sibs, but I'm betting - ref laughter being the original and best medicine - you and your Mum would identify with it and be gaffaw-ing non-stop, to point of falling off the sofa! I know I do. *********** 4. Daily, eh? Actions. He thinks he's getting to be Rescuer. He'll learn. Meanwhile - good for mum! It's funny, though, isn't it. If I were him - a bloke whom by virtue of his gender had free rein to chase-chase-chase and do what it took to convince the woman he were sorry and keen to prove it, without being labelled "sad 'n desperate" - I wouldn't basically get my fwiend fwom sthchool to go over and tew her I wanna go back out wiv her...daily" (what is he - 11?). I'd be camping on the front doorstep, posting heartfelt letters, *or*, if she'd asked me to back off and give her space - RESPECTING THAT! Or - let's not forget - giving UP the offending job and flat and renting one nearer home instead, and getting bog-standard counselling from a 'front room' counsellor down the road, even if I did so without breaking the request for space. Actions, actions, actions. 5. Unopened, eh? Talk about resolute? Did you - a party for him? Oh, well done, that's lovely! I'll bet he was *really* touched. 6. No proof. That's what I thought. 7. The more muscley, the better, I'd have thought? Anyway - Tick! for Tom. What have you learned through Tom, then? Has he been discussing his findings with you, either in relation or isolation? 8. Yellow, Purple and Grey? Purple as the accent colour, and fairly muted, I presume? Anyway, sounds very a la mode, dwahling. :-) "It seemed like it was a good distraction for her." Ahhhh. But, LOL, now you're just showing-off. ;-) Were they good piccies? We talking abstracts? 9. Cool-sounding Saturday job. You *are* keeping busy, aren't you! Again, good instincts. Are you dreaming more because of it? 10. Re homework: So what, pertaining to your own, specific, group situation, have you and Mum learned?

Something very strange here Soulmate. I just went through a rigamaroll with my account here sheeesh! Seems like things have changed they've changed my password and everything. Guh!

What price progress. ;-) But - remember that all techie queries/comments/feedback go to Richard? I deal only in puters of the biological variety. Innit. ("Psst!" - Lils - and you Scopes: check out 'Relationship Advice' to see the female of the specie.)

Maybe your parents respect each other and treat each other well, but don't love each other. It remains only to wrestle. In any case truth you will learn only from them.

Appreciate your urge to input, Steven, but may I ask you to in future read the entire thread before commenting so as to proffer advice that's fully informed? Many thanks, and welcome to the forum. :-)

The latest up date is, is that my dad called me and I answered. I had just come out of counselling and was really wound up and really disliking him and I just answered in a snappy way. Bad timing I know. Point of his call was he thinks we should have family counselling, (minus my mum) and wanted me to commit there and then. I said no because I think he needs to work on himself first and I'm not ready for any kind of counselling with him yet. Also he hadn't and wasn't going to run it past sibs. He got annoyed at my answer, so I put him in his place, It all came out... quite bluntly, and I didn't miss anything out that I have been really wanting to say to him for a long time and probably what I would of said to him in counselling. It felt like talking to him a right and wrong thing to do. Wrong because now I really do understand what my counsellor was saying about waiting to be in the right frame of mind and feeling strong before seeing him again, so I'm not affected by what he says. I was even more wound up and anxious after. I won't be in contact again until I'm ready. But right in that I felt like I had expressed myself to him properly and let go of some of that anger I've been carrying around. He probably still feels sorry for himself but he can go and talk to his therapist about it. I just hope the therapist is good and will be honest with him. I did tell my mum that I had spoken to him as soon as I saw her that day and she did say that she did think either me or bro would do what I did at some point. I don't know how much the counselling is costing him and my mum just by looking at the website it looks like a lot! He might have insurance but not sure how that works. Yeah my mum has checked the money side of things but she's not told me any more . My mum seems to be angry at the moment and keeps saying it feels like she's wasted twenty something years of her life being married to my dad and she should of left him a lot sooner. Ohh I'll watch Frazier need something funny to watch, been watching In Treatment which got a bit depressing and Stranger Things, which was good but ...strange. They are good drawings and paintings - my fav is a drawing of a wolf howling with caption above saying, 'Hello World Here I am!'. Not sure if sis copies drawing from somewhere or if she's thinking them up by her self but quite original. It's given me an idea with biz for the summer hols because most of the kids are with us all day sis could do cartoon portraits of each of them at a cost she already does arty things with them anyway. Think the parents would love that. Tom doesn't bl**dy talk to me anymore. Well... he does when he's at home and does thoughtful things but as soon as he's back at uni, I'm lucky if I hear from him once a week, usually on a Sunday when he's tired and hungover. Not too sure if I'm being too negative because of what's going on in my family and I'm projecting things on to our relationship or if maybe things are fizzling out and the distance is too much coz we used meet half way - nothing's been arranged. Or could be disappointment on his behalf that I'm going to uni next yr but want to stay close to home and not live in halls, it mainly because of biz. The thought of breaking up scares me though. My mum and I have learnt that one way to deal with narcs is to try be more aware and be one step ahead of them. As in try to think what they could do next, to manipulate you or what else the could lie about. Yeah I have read that post! It's interesting. It's like people are under a deep trance with narcs, coz after so many warning signs, they still choose to carry on the relationship even they know something isn't quite right. And they still make mistakes with like paying for things and wanting to be nice and do they decent thing. But maybe they don't know about narcasisstic people and that's why they continue. If that was me I'd be like 'good bye!' And on that note bye :-)

Just moving this up to the top x

LILS sorry about my being inattentive. My life's been in a bit of a spin. Nothing serious

Hey Lils! Hopefully better late than never, but I want you to know I've been trying in vain *daily* to set some time aside to respond...was so overloaded I couldn't even post a quick 'bear with me'......until now (phew!). ***** Maybe not bad timing? What's so wrong about his knowing just how much he's upset you? You can be honest without it having to mean you allowing yourself to be manipulated, after all. In fact, I think that's exactly what you just did. :-) No worries. And anyway, counselling is for when you *can't* speak honestly and plainly and basically need a mediator-referee, i.e. No BS 'n Bad Behaviour Allowed, time to get REAL. Also, hardly surprising you had an anxious reaction. After all, it's hardly routine, is it, giving your dad truthful What For? It would leave anyone in your position anxious, simply because it's neither your comfort zone nor something you'd ever thought to prepare for. Again - no worries. Plus, it beats a letter you never send, eh! (Y) So well done, it was very brave and healthy of you. How do you feel now? Secondly - yes, indeed. Why *can't* he get one-on-one counselling first, why do you lot have to hold his hand? Or was wanting to see if you would however much his point? Hence, wanting your answer now-now-now (- who the hell does he think he is - Kim Jung Un?!). He's hardly in a position to dictate, is he. You'd think he'd have worked that one out for himself. I hope the therapist is good/right for him, as well. Because - it's funny, isn't it, how people automatically accept the fact that finding a friend or lover or whatever 'intimate' relationship is going to be a numbers game. And yet when it comes to choosing counsellors, they seem to expect an instant click as standard. Nay, you have to phone around and have a quick conversation (which any good counsellor should be prepared to do) to tell. ***** Do you think (sense) your mother's bitterness re wasted time has anything to do with what she found out financially when she dug around? Tell her, no experience is ever truly bad experience, as in, a waste. It really is true, that what doesn't kill you makes you stronger and tends [understatement!] to pay unexpected, un-anticipate-able dividends at whatever later point in your life. Again - these testing times are mental gym equipment in disguise....new muscles galore. Usually, it means life has some near-future challenge in-store for which you're going to sorely need them and without which you might otherwise go "PLEUGH!". It's all good. Life really is a rollercoaster, meaning, any dips lead inevitably to the next high phase. And the greater the lows each time, the higher the highs from then on. She must believe this, because it's true, and embrace the challenge for where it's going to lead and empower her. Tell her to look at it this way: She might THINK he and she had a properly close relationship, but - CLEARLY NOT. Why did your mother feel fine for so long with a weak connection? Did it suit her? Well, tough. You're either all in or all out, there is NEVER any such thing as 'a bit of a relationship' or 'relationship lite', whatever you want to call it. So WHAT IF the true love of her life is making his way 'towards her' as we speak...at this point having his own relationship ending?...and that if this hadn't happened, she might have had a miserable old age, WHEREAS, because of this whole experience and event, she'll have the muscle power for this future, heavier (but also more positive and rewarding) union? Attitude is *everything*. Handed Lemons? It's Make Lemonade Time! That or a pile of rotting, stinky, Lemony mess. Her choice! It really is a good thing... her gauntlet run to Happyville. *If* she lets it. (There you go - that should shut her up. ;-)) ******* So what did you think of Frasier? ******* Re your sis's drawings. Howwwwws abooooout - YOU ASK HER? (You know that funny hole shape in the bottom centre of her face...? It's where answers come out - same as yours (I knowwww - what were the chances?!) ;-D) OOOOOH! COOL IDEA! YES, THEY BLOODY WELL WOULD! Have you run it past any of them yet? ******* Yeeeaaah. That's Uni and sudden, total freedom and person-diversity for ya. He'll get bored of it, don't you worry. But you know what to do if you don't want to be Sunday Girl, don't you? (RSvP...unless you've forgotten from last time?) Alternatively, you can just sit him down, very next chance you get in-person, and tell him honestly how you feel. Tip: don't talk like a victim, as in, 'what you're doing to me, it's not fair, mew-mew'. It's this: I AM NOHT A-MUUUUUSED, in fact, I am distinctly unimpressed. Short version: never Boo-Hoo, always Ugh/Pfff! Or just shine more. Until you're of equal or greater shininess than all the novelties of Uni life. Three choices there for Modom. :-) You probably are being negative, wholly understandably, and probably feel you need him more due to feeling 'dad-less'. But that's a gymwork/hole-plugging leg-up, meaning, cheating. Plus it wouldn't leave you feeling any better, anyway. A boyfriend shouldn't be a hole-plugger in your cake of life, he should be the cherry on the top. If you need a hole in your life plugged - you're not in a beau-worthy state. YOU are your hole-plugger - developing yourself until you're happy without any friends or any partner. This is a family member gap, anyway, meaning, it's the rest of your family's job to fill the breach....your opportunity, all of you, to become as close as you would have been had you had a supportive 'masthead' figure. But even that's just a springboard. If that sounds gender-biased, it's not, it's just a fact. Remember, we still run according to primitive wiring and the fact of the matter, regardless of any Isms, is - the man of the family still sets the whole tone. And given that I've a number of times had to say to you to JUST ASK THEM!, shows that the culture created by a weak and diluted 'pack leader' set the tone of all other member-to-member relationship/intimacy level. In application that means you should be able to ask any family member anything, without hesitation (bar the need for diplomatic timing). It's time to get closer to them all and vice-versa....plug the gap THAT way. Or rather, in your case - KEEP getting closer. But Rome wasn't built in a day, meaning, a temporary feeling of deficit/something missing. This event is definitely a life-prescribed catalyst and opportunity - do not adjust your set. :-) ******* Yup - Mum's right. But even that is a temporary coping measure. Your goal is to erect / re-erect and strengthen your boundaries. Those are all the protection both in any ad-hoc or planned situation that a person needs. Because if the attitude is right, the desired (this case, self-protective) behaviour will naturally follow via the actions and the mouth. YOU'VE got it. You said, NO, I WILL NOT GO TO *FAMILY* COUNSELLING WITH YOU UNTIL YOUR BEHAVIOUR STARTS TO SHOW YOU'RE READY FOR IT! That's Boundaries! :-) It's you being true to yourself and how you at this point feel (tick!). Feelings are your guide. Trust them. They're all the Alert System you have and need. I can recommend a brilliant book to teach or remind you all of how to uphold boundaries, including which to abide by in whichever situation(s) within whichever relationship type. It's by Adelyn Birch and it's called [drum-roll.....] - "BOUNDARIES". :-D It's short but wholly comprehensive, as such, serving as a handy guidebook to carry around with you if necessary. Cannot recommend it enough, Gold bloody star! Inexpensive for something so packed full of gems, as well. ******** Narcs of whatever variety Love-Bomb. You can't pay attention and react appropriate to warning signs ("Red Flags") if you're high as a kite on extraordinary levels of Dopamine. And that is that is that. Which is precisely why they love-bomb. Plus there's the other problem of pattern recognition 'software' not kicking in because...the bad behaviour and relational 'crimes' are brought in drip by tiny drip,...."slowly, slowly, catchee monkey"....an almost imperceptible shift.... MEANING, before you're too blotto to notice or care or realise the negative impact, any bad or disappointing behavioural events are the distinct minority...and you don't chuck someone who's 95% amazing and only 5% shite......until one day you wake up and realise that you've been straitjacketed and incarcerated under your own radar because it's now somehow - SOMEHOW! - 35% amazing and 65% shite.....At which point, overly deep Attachment (Trauma Bonding) and the Investment Principle has long kicked in, making it almost impossible to cut the cord. Then there's Intermittent Reinforcement as creates very strong addiction on your part (your system involuntarily becomes addicted to the massive highs and lows). Google these key words and phrases and you'll see what I mean. Victims/Targets/Challenges really are nigh-on powerless and it requires strength of mind and/or what I call The Final Insult (the last straw that breaks the camel's back) to break free. Frankly, ending your relationship with your Prince Charming now-turned Prince of Darkness (but always with the promise of P.C.'s return) can feel like willingly stepping off a cliff to your death. No bull. Only it's not death, that feeling is an illusion. It's life ("Choose life") (name the film!). But yes, where Sociopathic Narcs are concerned - not only are their brains wired differently, but the research psychs have noticed that their pattern of speech and tone of voice literally does hypnotise the victim. (Brrrr! - right?) There is zero avoiding a Narc. It's simply a case of being in the wrong place at the right time. There is only - waking up then sobering up in good time, planning your escape, waiting for all the necessary elements to be in place, then not hesitating when those conditions are all 'in a row'. This really is the psychological version of being a sex or whatever slave and having to make an intelligent run for it. Scary stuff, huh? And yet, Life Changing & Enhancing stuff too (thank uck). It really does toughen you up in all the right ways whilst simultaneously softening you up in the right ways too. But having present and intact boundaries definitely, definitely helps a great deal. It gives you the oomph to dump the dud *before* you get so involved that to break free would present a mountain of pain. Third date latest, usually. But if you do miss that initial opportunity, then is when strength and independence of mind + all escape elements being prepared or in-place comes in. And if even those are missed, be prepared to become Narcissised and end up one of them (sounds fantastical, but it's true; it's how they themselves were created/encouraged out, after all). You're entirely correct about people's ignorance and incredulity. Ironically, you've hit a point in your life where you conclude the fairy tales are all crap....and then a bit later, hit a point where you realise they damn well are. Trolls, monsters...they're real. And they're other (er) "people". They *affect & effect* as Evil. By varying degrees. Try Rhonda Freeman's (neurobiologist) website to find out just how the bad spell gets cast.

I know this is a little off-topic, but maybe you should consider beginning a new thread about this issue, Lily. I understand that you want to keep the topic on-going, but this thread has existed for almost 2 years. In that time I'm sure your current issue has evolved. And yes, there are clearly still people responding here, but I had to scroll like crazy just to be able to respond. A lot of us might be willing to give advice to you, but this is so massive a read that only people who've been following your thread for a long time now can keep up with the situation. There seems to be a lot more going on now than just the situation with your parents separating. What is the topic now? :-S

Sorry not ignoring, just got really busy! Hi scopes, what you been up to? Hi Altreal, thanks for your comment. It's is still the same topic, it's just gone on and on and on, with a few other personal things that had been going on, on the side. Will reply properly next week

Hey, Been meaning to reply but things suddenly went a bit mad last week. Tom's dad is in hospital, I'd like to say he's going to be ok but I'm not too sure, it's a horrible waiting game at the moment :-(. Keeping everything crossed. Since phone call with my dad my mind been feeling a lot more at peace where I'm not constantly thinking about what he's done and analysing it all the time. It feels like I've dumped it all on him. Now when he attempts to make contact, I'm clear about what I want to do and when the day comes when I want to see or talk to him I know it will be right. He has tried to make contact since, he wanted to go out for Father's Day, sis was the only one who went coz she made him something. But she came back frustrated because all he did was question her. Putting aside her frustrations, he apparently wants us to go on holiday with him and according to sis she is 'definitely going'. Did question/try to talk to her on why she wanted to go, when she found going out with him for one day frustrating when she'll have to put up with it for a week, but she got defensive...she'll learn. He also told her at the weekends he's doing voluntary work for a food bank...don't know why ...but I find this odd? He's never bothered before with any kind of volentary work so not sure why now. My mum has stopped being bitter and complaining that she had wasted years of her life. Aunty had enough and erm put her straight a bit. She might still think those things but she's got the head teacher job she wanted so that's keeping her busy/quiet. We did celebrate :-) and this also gets her away properly from leech face who is still lurking around her. Not going to counselling anymore. Counsellor was good until she started saying things like, 'your dad isn't that bad really is he?" And 'he must be caring because of the job he does' . Really sticking up for him. The first time she said it, it hit a nerve and I felt like I had to remind her of what he has done and I did, she then slid a few more comments in which I ignored. Then the last time I got a bit angry, not something I'm used to doing with people I don't know, so it was awkward after, and she told me 'it's ok to be angry'. I know that. I don't know if she was testing me or trying to get that reaction from me but I decided I wasn't gaining anything anymore. I haven't stopped talking completely, my course tutor (who's been a counsellor for mannny years) likes to touch base/talk sometimes. Realise I was just having a moan about Tom, I agree I was demanding more attention coz I was feeling dad-less. It was also coz he's living in a house in the second yr with the girl 'who-he-is-just-friends-with' and 'is-just-one-of-the-lads' and two other boys. I believe it, she's just bl**dy annoying and was hoping he'd escape from her a bit...and maybe a bit of jealousy on my part too! Yeah, ran the drawing idea past the parents - Offer to draw a pic of their little angels and they're all over it ...some more demanding then others as always, wanting to talk to sis beforehand and wanting to see some of her art work.

Er.....Thanks, Altreal, but Lily and I together will decide when this thread needs to be over - Lily first. If anyone missed their chance at the start, to get involved, stay involved, and thereby stay up-to-speed, then - AWWWWW, tsk, life's a b*gger, ain't it?! Personally, however, I see the need to (cuh!) scroll-scroll-scroll and (yawn) have to wade through a fraction of a book as a superb acid test of anyone's alleged determination to contribute in a worthwhile way. So it's all good, cheers. :-) Plus of course, this has *long* been a one-on-one (plus thread deputy). The clue was in the fact that only myself and Scopes were consistent respondents, hence the name banners endlessly going, Lily, Soulmate, Scopes, Lily... (hello? :-D). However, if you're actually gagging to contribute, as well as have the topic know-how, then it's very simple: read the entire thread from start to 'finish'. With 100% percent concentration. A good 5 times over (just to ensure you don't forget or overlook anything later on). ...if you fink y're 'ard enuff? [wiggles eyebrows challengingly] ;-)

AAAAARGH! Sorry, Lils - problems Sending and I forgot to copy, meaning, am going to have to re-do it tomorrow. Bear with?

And I'm going to have to say sorry too Soulmate and LILS. I've been having issues.

Ok bearing with :-)

Hey Scopes! 'Start a thread' issues or just life's workload getting too much? **************** Here I is! Right - start again ("Again, again, Telly-Tubby again!").... I'll do it in number format, it's easier than para by para (I only need para by para to analyse, but you're full-time self-aware of-late so - dass ist gut, und danke-scheun(sp?), mein leibling). 1. Tom's Life Sh*t: Oh god, poor Tom. It's hard enough, coping with the demise of a parent, when you're middle-aged and stronger for the years and experience. So he has my fullest sympathies, having to take that on so prematurely. :-( Are you being his rock? Or more to the point - is Tarzie letting you? 2. Tarzie's Acting-out: "If you fail to reassure me of your continued affections via the upkeep of a steady enough stream of affection, now that you're X miles out of my sphere of boyfriendly control (as is exacerbating my usual gross insecurity) and, for all I know, being circled in my absence by looooads of other potential boyfriends, sniffing round (the b***ards), then, rather than be honest and just say '...So, you still madly into me or wot, luv?', thereby risking rejection ('No, Wayne, I ain't!'), I shall contrive a positive answer by SQUEEZING a show of attention out of you, usinnnnng ....THIS very handy tool, known as, Wunnathelads [- foreign exchange student from Wales, is she? :-D]. She's another girl, all girls are super-competitive with one another, she'll do!". Pretty Narcissistic, huh? Yup. But here's the diff that makes all the diff: at his age, still, HE'S SUPPOSED TO BE. Typical teen/early 20-er boy: one minute, 'Bond...James Bond'; the next, 'Me um Tarzan/Cheetah'. They don't know WHERE they are! Are they an adult man...like yesterday? Or are they still a boy...like today? Answer: Both. Transition. But not coping with it as well or as smoothly as (most) girls. It's just a phase. And a developmentally vital one, at that. When it's no longer just a phase, that's when it's a problem (because it's bit like still being in nappies, aged 44...just, the psych version). It's flattery, Jim, but not as we know it! Summary: your jealousy was deliberately and purposefully created (ergo, nothing to do with you to begin with) borne from his fears and egotism, and your moan justified. It's typical of a narcissist (or teenager to early 20-er) to punish you for having the very feelings or sensations that they've deliberately just manipulated you to feel and automatically react to....in order to gain the excuse to batter you, or manipulate you to give them what they want. They batter you because you won't do what they want and see things they way they 'see' them, but ultimately, so you won't have the energy to one day wake up and leave them (from the suffocating hold). They're Communist China, after having picked your passport to shreds, after having first wooed you into emigrating there...so that you'll never leave them LIKE THEY KNOW YOU WILL, YOU BIZC-EEK, MUMMY! (etc)). Control Freaks of the BAD variety. Solution: if you just ignore it next time, as if you just don't see it, then he'll consider the tool useless and discard it. He might substitute it with just another stupid tool, but, via process of elimination, he'll eventually be forced (the right and passive way) into picking up the CORRECT AND RESPECTFUL one. ...which brings me nicely onto... 3. Your Dad (must I? :-p) : Yes, Sis has to learn. But it's hard because she has no contrast - which is this: A. Normal, Healthy but Separation-alienated dad: He hides his senses of hurt, insult and disappointment from the daughter who *has* 'made the effort' (or dared) to turn up - i.e. sucks it up and deals with it like a man, particularly as it's his own consequence for bad behaviour - and gets engrossed in the 'date', all the while, secure or hopeful in the wise anticipation that, on hearing her relate what a great (and soul-soothing) time she had with him, and passing on his well-wishes to them, his other children might be suitably reassured and inspired to join her next time (whereupon he maintains that group positive attitude, in order to salvage his relationship with his own children). [Well, alright - that's a Mary Poppins type dad. But at least he'd do all of that and then only slip a quick hint or question or two in the middle of the main show, or crumble only right at the end with something brief that he didn't persist with. You get my point. It's called, acts (mainly) like a grown-up, putting her feelings and all the potential longer-term gains first.] B. (Perm or Temp) Abnormal, Unhealthy, Separation-alienated dad: Like wot yours dun did. Poo-ed all over her hopes and expectations as well as the Quality Time opportunity itself, for the sake of COLLECTING INTEL for the purposes of knowing exactly which way TO MANIPULATE in order to reinstate CONTROL (incl. over consequences, i.e. avoid them). He is Tom, NEVER having come out of the teenage narcissistic phase. (I expect you can see it now?) On Tom, it's kinda cute and amusing in with the annoying. On him, it's: (Gimmie the gun! No, the bigger one. Yes, Nuclear Warhead, that's what I meant - just give it!...) I knew that, and you knew/sensed that - but she doesn't. Yet. One either knows it instinctively or has to be 'told' it, courtesy of the banked-up emotional pain that hits Critical, whereupon it hurts like f***ery and the only way out is to understand. Because Pain is a warning that something's wrong/something needs investigating, but which tends to come AFTER Gut Instinct being a warning that something's wrong. So if she's not great at being in-touch with her feelings, or has had her ability to trust her own instincts 'kicked' out of her, or would rather take action than feel the dreaded things, then she'll have to learn the hard way. But then, what choice does she, at her young age, have? HE'S HER DAD. (-ish) And she's having to get her head around what took quite a bit of trouble for you to get your head around - at 18. She'll learn. But she'll need your help if the pain and confusion isn't to overwhelm her and she comes out of it a graduate with a doctorate rather than a heaving mess. Meantime, I wouldn't be surprised if her 'definitely going' and defensiveness were to do with his having offered her bribes. It's what they do. And what pliable - or over-confident - or both - daughters respond to. 4. ...But it's your little brother I'm most worried about. He's too quiet by far. (Any latest?) 5. Back to your Dad: So let me get this straight.... He knows counselling's called-for (according to the story he got his mate to relate), but instead - "Tonight, Matthew, I'm going to beeee......A FOOD-BANK VOLUNTEER! (- Stars In Their Eyes). ...If it exists. You sure it isn't Community Service? ;-p Response: Whadaf**k? Does your mother find food-bank volunteers irresistible or something? Where does he take his dry-cleaning - Subways? ("Use more mayonnaise this time, please?") Good grief. New Mantra: "I asked The Liar if he was telling the truth and he said Yes". (To go with the one that goes, 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent' - LaLa Land Coping Rules.) But anyway, yeeees.... Isn't it funny how Foodbank sounds a lot like Hoodwink (if you're a p*ssed poet)? He'd rather Impress (5 minutes) than Humble Himself To Learn & Apply (months). There IS one other possibility, of course: He's gone on Matchdotcom or whatever and is dating (sh*gging) a lady who regularly volunteers there, and now is trying to pass that secret a*se-licking/mirroring off as [wait for it and try not to laugh] WORKING ON GETTING HIS MARRIAGE & FAMILY BACK. ?? Had you 'gone there' yet, considered what he's been doing over there?...night after night? Whatever. The fact remains that, if his pride is so gargantuan that he'd rather be seen GIVING help than receiving it like he's SUPPOSED to be doing, even merely by the laws of (allegedly suicidal) logic, then, he is still not humble enough to be fit for being anyone's intimate relationship partner, let alone to succeed the damn thing. What did mum say when she found out? 4. Your counsellor: Nice counsellor, Wrong counsellor. It's utterly shameful how FEW counsellors are au fait with the full workings of the narcissistic relationship all the way to fauxlationship, isn't it? That's why you have to ring around and ask each one specifically 'whether'. But it's okay because, knowing you and your sensible and efficient feet, if you'd really, truly, still needed her you'd have endured the slog of re-positioning her viewpoint and keeping it there. So I'm betting you got what you needed from her, well before you hit that 'I can't get my head around it, can't we pretend he's normal but with a very big headache, and judge him that way?' point on her part. Plus, to be capable of registering superiority on that score, in terms of greater knowledge and insight, over a health professional twice your age, must surely have finally, blessedly, left you convinced regarding your own, perfectly suited self-help capabilities? IOW, IMO, you don't need a counsellor, you're perfectly capable of cherry-picking your own know-how and enlisting and delegating to helpers if and when necessary. Because that's basically what you've been doing this whole time, anyway. As you grow better at being as equally plugged-in as -out, thereby 'all seeing', you'll begin to know what you're up to *as* you're doing it or possibly even before you try anything! :-) ...which doesn't leave a lot, but, anyway....LOL. One can be as intelligent on paper as one likes, but - Awareness, including Self-, is EVERYTHING. Particularly when anyone of the lying persuasion tries to lie to you about what you're like or what you "ACTUALLY" meant or intended, blah-narcissistic-blah. It can't work because you know better and to your very core (from the lifelong-collected, fit-together, empirical evidence). I mean - where's she been her whole life, this counsellor? Doesn't she read the papers, books, watch telly, talk to contemporaries, keep up-to-date with her industry press, trawl all things psych on the web? Wouldn't she have picked up on 'the new definition' now, and hop-skip-jumped over to one of Christine Louis de Canonville's lectures - or even YouTube-ed or Amazon-ed - OR SOMETHING, in order to keep up with the cultural, if not scientific times? (Bet she will now, though, eh...after you. :-D :-D :-D (Y) ) Here, I'll give her a capsule education on it, just in case she ever finds herself onto this forum or thread: Normal/Empath World View: Relationship = Partnership (Us-Us-Us/Request-Request-Request/Build-Build-Build) Narc World View: Relationship = Dictatorship (Me-Me-Me/Manipulate-Threaten-Manipulate/Bash-Smash-Crash) Conclusion: Queen of Hearts -v- Alice in Wonderland = Can't Work/Won't Work (When, not If). Result: Gargantuan Incompatibility and (for the victim or non-narc) hugely, dangerously mind and life-detrimenting relationship. 'Relationship' = Parent, Child, Sibling, Relative, Lover, Boss, Employee Pupil, Teacher, COUNSELLOR = "Uh-oh, jungo, it's Danger Island!" (- The Bananasplits) = Incentive to get off your a*se and get with today's programme. :-p IT'S NOT UNDERGROUND ANY MORE! ...which reminds me: have you and your mum been watching The Handmaid's Tale? 5. Your Mum: I still reckon she's keeping Lena around as a stand-in (safer) study subject - and possibly to collect (rightful) intel in terms of how they 'think' and work out what to expect next. After all, Lily - Mum is sole protector of the castle and its inhabitants now. She needs to be one step ahead, especially in order to never be seen to react (fuel for the fire). But tell Aunty-with-an-I-E (:-D), not to invalidate her next time. Her bitterness and complaining are wholly justified, necessary, and need to run their course (she'll get bored, eventually - as a sign it's out..."better out than in"). Bombed....Brain Bombed...Double Oh-OH!.....Licensed to Rant. I recommend The Freedom Programme (Pat Craven, author of The Dominator - read that one yet?). There'll be one in or near your area, I'm sure. You'll be able to find out 'which counsellors' there, as well. And b*tch and moan and generally vent, as much as you all NEED to. If you didn't, you wouldn't be normal. Auntie can wear earplugs. ;-) And, plus - that's how to get rid of Leech-face. Because you can bet your arse that LF does a hell of lot of 'listening' and 'agreeing' and 'sympathising' ("pick me!"). PS: These helicopter mums... Do they also meanwhile stand there coaching their sons or daughters on how best to pout? Methinks someone needs to show them how to lighten up! Still - ker-ching! :-) How much do you and Blister charge for it, out of nosiness? What's next - on-site hairdresser? :-D ....ACTUALLY.....(!) (??) Kids' Activity Day Centre. ?? If so - "We're gonna need a bigger boat!" (Name the famous film!) PPS: I'm in a really good mood today - does it show? (Sorry) PPPS: I'm copying this, this time, before I hit that sneaky Submit button....

Nah... Soulmate no need to start a thread it'll be alright.

Tom was and still is pretty traumatised, he was there when his dad was rushed to the hospital. No, he wasn't letting me be there for him to start with. He went into denial in the beginning, where he was pretending everything was ok, and was ignoring what the drs were saying. One dr got a bit concerned about him, so talked to him, and now it's sinking in. Still not gd, nearly every day something has gone wrong, Drs and toms family are going to discuss what to do next, not looking forward to this talk happening. What makes it more harder for him is his parents were not completely honest last year when his dad had a funny turn. Was more serious then they let on. It was done out of protection, last year of school, I kind of understand why, but his bros knew as well, so tom is understandably angry. There have been some pretty tense conversations :-/. Thankfully, two of toms best friends from Cornwall have turned up, to give support, which has eased things quite a bit. ******** Ah, I understand the narcissism late teenage, early twenties boy thing. As long as he comes out of it! I'm sure he will. My mums reaction on my dad working at the food bank was also a bit like WTF?! She said he won't do it for long, she gives it another couple of months, and he'll think he's Mr Amazing, but will leave coz he'll be bored. He's not doing it to be kind or selfless. I think it was to grab our attention, which has not worked and she's not impressed. Talking of it all being about him, he decided to announce by email (he likes to think that by emailing us he might stands more of a chance of getting a response) that his psychologist has diagnosed him with 'server stress and anxiety'... I'd love to get in a room with this person and tell him or her whats actually happened because I doubt my dad has actually told the whole truth. Bro, yeah, he's struggling. I didn't realise because he's been going out with gf a lot, she seems to be doing a lot of listening and distracting. Normally, when bro is not coping with something, he shuts down and isolates himself, he then used to rebel but that's stopped. It became more obvious when sis came back from spending the day with my dad and she was updating us. Bro didn't want to know, got angry very quickly, tried to shut down the conversation and when that didn't happen he walked away. Think he's a lot more affected then me and sis. He has a very good memory in general, and he remembers how my dad talked/treated him. Some of the things he's told me I didn't even know happened. I think he wants us to try to understand and acknowledge where he's coming from a bit more. I haven't tried to look at it from his prospective and what it was like for him, so going to try. He would really like it if my dad acknowledged what he did, and talk to him about it, coz I think then he could move on, and start a relationship with him again but I don't think my dad will do that. Bro knows about narcaasism, showed him websites, but whether he took any interest I'm not sure. so found him a book on narcissistic parents, which I'm going to read after. One Mum demanded that sis drew her kids portraits first coz (oh no, what a shame!) they're going to be away for the whole summer. I think failed at hiding how pleased I was, when she told me. She's a pain in the arse, seems to be quite controlling (I like how I can spot poss narcs now) and wants updates on her kids all the time, she lingers after their lessons and there is no way of avoiding her. She also stood behind sis and watched her draw her kids, not off putting at all, until sis (who wasn't in a good mood in the first place) got fed up and asked her not to. But the Mum and kids were pleased with the end result, so I think it's going to be a hit. Since Sis is getting nearly all of the money, she did some research and decided £8 per drawing and if they want it in a framed £10, 'course most of them want the drawings framed. She thinks she can decorate frames too, make them look nice and she can charge more!

Hi LILS I agree with your mum. Your dad working in a food bank wtf?

Hi scopes, I know, he's very money orientated and never done anything for free. He's tight and has always looked for ways to make more, that's why it's so not like him. Pleased you replied to that other post btw, know the one I mean? was gonna ask for help on here, I'm trying to answer more threads but thought this one was a little out of my league. Apparently I'm over emotional, lol (rofl).

Hey Lils, (And HE knows you know he's very money orientated and never done anything for free, and that it's 'so not like him'. So if it's so unlike him - he MUST have changed! See how they weave their warped magic, now? It's clever, isn't it. And the route of least effort + patience/endurance...just creating an effective impression is all the finger they're willing to lift.) Cripes, Lils - are you telling me the doctors' prognosis is that Tom's dad is more likely than not, on his way out, meaning, just a case of When? And that 'what to do next' concerns a machine and a turning-off? Well, at least Tom is letting you now. Better late than never and all that... I suspect Tom's going to make a meal of this issue as well as the fact he's justified so has carte blanche to. At his age - and over something that'd bring out anyone's inner foetus - Tom's an emotional awareness fledgling, still, (aka hasn't learned to swiftly identify the ingredients in any of his 'feelings cocktails') so ranting, repeatedly and for longer than strictly necessary, will seem far more manly/far less humiliating than falling into a heap of hysterical sobbing. Particularly in front of his girlfriend and mum. In which case, there's no point in telling him how deeply he'll appreciate that very well-intentioned, lovingly protective decision of theirs in the years to come, or to imagine the unwanted, long-term affective academic situation and subsequent trajectory he could have been sent on if not, because he's unlikely to want to listen. He NEEDS that soapbox! Or thinks he does. But we can't progress his emotional development in record-breaking time (not that we even would) so - if he thinks he does, he does...it is what it is and that's what has to be tolerated and made way for while time is scarce. What else it tells me, though, is that he's still in Impressing You mode. (Or is it, BACK in it?) Undoubtedly due to the enforced switch to Long Distance. Well, then, the trick for getting around it is to dish all of your support through actions: being there, being physically, affectionately reassuring (stroke-stroke, pat-pat) plus more thoughtful, accommodating, cooperative and helpful than normal...that sort of thing. The *positive* version of Walking On Eggshells (as includes sensing when to cease the special dispensation before it turns rotten). Knowing you, I'm sure you're already doing just that. But have the tissues ready, anyway, because - that inadequately fashioned 'righteous indignation dam', with enough pressure might just burst. WHOOSH! When, not If. You're REALLY getting your relationship early-tested by Life's Sh*t, though, aren't you, the pair of you? First there's your 'premature', adult-sized trauma - now his! I wonder why you're being put through such advanced paces so early in? Hmmm.....[click-click, whirr-whirr]... But anyway... Who the hell could cope with trying to perform well enough to get into Uni on top of THAT! Or, if they could - who could also manage to keep their romantic relationship going? Bar Superman, I should add. But I guess his manly pride might see it that he's too old, now, to be shielded? ...Unless what you're telling me is that his brothers were about to face the same level of academic pressure, too? I hope not or else that means his parents are communicating to his siblings that they've got their 'money' on Tom 'becoming something big in the city' and Tom alone! RSvP? If not, then he needs to (calm down and then come to) understand that, as a parent, that dilemma is very much a case of "Sophie's Choice": Damned if you do, damned if you don't! ..a la (A) "You should have told me at the time, it was far more important than stupid uni!" or (B) "You should have waited to tell me and then I'd have passed my exams and my career/relationship wouldn't be in tatters!" So you can't win either way. So why meddle, follows the begged question? Answer: Protector programming's too strong, innit....powerless to resist. You'll (eventually) see, once you're parents yourselves. I think if it'd been me and my choice.... Yup, I'd have kept it watered-down for a while, too. *However*....saying that...Are we forgetting that he *did* succeed in getting into the uni of his choice? So why didn't they tell him at that point? Hmm... I suspect that there's an extra reason why they didn't want to tell Tom, and that quite possibly it's because - telling Tom specifically makes things *real*. Look at how Tom went 'officially' into denial, enough to need a levelling talk from the senior doctor/consultant. Who taught him that? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, usually. I suspect Tom makes "a big thing" of things as well as keeps things real, whereby any fingers deliberately blocking the family ears are guaranteed to at some point to dissolve and let the 'offending' reality in (because Tom would still be talking). Yep, I'd say Tom's an 'Emperor's wearing no clothes' merchant, definitely. Or certainly when it suits. Well, that's good because - so are you. Oh, just read about his friends turning up. Oh, good. He'll more easily be able to have a good cry with them, I expect. Or an extra-heavy rant. (Or drunken bouncing off the walls.) Basically, though, there'd be tense conversations anyway in a situation like this. It's too stressful for anyone to be a saint. And they all stand to suffer a huge loss, let's remember. Particularly his mum. I've just seen a flash in my crystal ball, and it hinted this: Your mum and his mum seem headed for suddenly having a humongous, very, very bonding thing in-common - both having suffered the premature and unexpected death of their husbands. You seeing it yet? That's rather noteworthy, isn't it? (Schpookayyy...) And at the same time - you and Tom having the loss of a dad in-common. I mean, there's physical death and then there's psychological death. Same diff. Although, me, I'd take actual death of a loved-one *any* day. At least then you aren't haunted by their walking-talking ghost (and nor is sight of that ghost a case of insulting salt rubbed into the insulting wound every time). It can't get taken personally when it's death by 'natural' causes, can it. There's no 'rejection' aspect. ...Or maybe there is? Say, where the patient has been warned that if they don't cease/change whatever habit, they'll endanger their life? I guess, then, that by failing to save your life for the sake of your loved-one(s), one could take that as rejection of sorts? Was Tom's dad warned in-time yet failed to take the necessary preventative measures? (Just trying to dissect Tom's anger package, don't mind me.) Yeah, he will (come out of it). We see him knee-jerk but then make a swift recovery most of the time, don't we? In fact - every time, isn't it? Just being capable of a recovery is positive sign of healthy development enough, let alone swiftly. No worries. :-) But I doubt he's going to be at his best for the foreseeable few weeks, so be warned, just in case. To mum's reaction: MONTHS? Pff - if that. Basically, Lils, if it doesn't work - "now-now-now!" - it'll get dropped in favour of ANOTHER tack. Back to the offensive, probably. ...Carrot - stick-stick-stick - carrot - carrot + stick together - carrot - stick-stick-stick.... That's usually how it goes. E.g. 'So...lovely weather we've been having, lately, isn't it?...My new girlfriend was just saying, the other day-(COUGH-tell-your-mother)'. That sort of crud. Or, maybe, he's BORED of this new job, not what it was cracked up to be....thinking of investigating a contract iiiiin.....AUSTRALIA! THAT sort of crud. Or - 'Just thought I should let you know, I MAAAAYYYY not be able to continue paying X and Y bills from now on because [insert button-pushing-ollocks]'. Has your mum been to a solicitor and discussed Interim Maintenance yet? Oh, I'm sure your dad *is* suffering stress and anxiety, Lily. But of his own making, including where he has the Stop button under his greedy little finger ("I'm so special and above the rules, I reckon I can have TWO wives!"). So, just to be technically correct: the Vulnerable type *love* to convince themselves that they're the victim and the victim's the true perp. As I think I mentioned before, if the abuser is the dad then the son tends to get it the worst, yes. Because your typical Mr Egotistical Misogynist wants his same gender offspring to 'get the woman - Der Enemy - before or lest she gets him' too! (Deep down they fear/hate women and come to the relationship defensive, a 'hit or be hit' attitude.) How did he talk to and treat bro? Did it per chance centre around the themes of 'we need to make a REAL man of you!' (translation: able to totally control a woman) and 'cease being a big girl's blouse!' (cease having feminine-pleasing qualities)? No, I think bro is flooding, needing to go chew and digest as well as limit further intake at that precise point in time. He'll probably return to ask questions later...or eavesdrop....which, yes, is understandable if he's already got a hefty backlog of anger and resentment that couldn't be expressed at the time. It's 'safe' to let it out now. But it doesn't leave much room for new stuff. Yet. It's funny, though, isn't it. Here's dad, allegedly highly stressed and anxious, but perfectly capable, apparently, of 'spreading the love' amongst total strangers, no doubt with a welcoming, friendly smile on his face. (He missed his vocation, he should have been an actor.) Listen, if he possessed that kind of very grown-up self-tempering control and patience, we wouldn't be here, having this long conversation. It's also funny, how dad thinks that, being told officially that you're stressed and anxious, to point of 'breakdown imminent', is his cue to SPEND TIME BEING AROUND HIS KIDS, YEAH!...WHAT A BRILLIANT, HIGHLY SENSIBLE IDEA, THEY'D HAVE A BALL! The term your brother's looking for is, Seeking validation. So, no, you're absolutely right - he won't get it. So he'll have to provide his OWN closure. And that's achieved by studying and/or discussing it all with someone in the know (so that the parts that are impossible to express are already common knowledge and need no deliberate defining and explaining (too taxing on top of everything else needing definitions)). So - ref the book - yet again we see your spot-on intuition and instincts - well done! "(I like how I can spot poss narcs now) " It's invaluable, isn't it? "...Nooo, s/he smells iffy - quick, duck down this alley! Phew, that was close!". And you thought vampire and zombie movies were purely science-fiction, eh! Nope. They're just SUBTLE HINTS. Have you ever seen The Shining? Basically (if you can stand the gory bits) (Stanley Kubrick - say n'more!) - Malig Narc Sociopath manages to get her and the kiddie willingly into an wholly isolated position and, bam! - "Heeeere's Johnny!". What sets him off is - he has delusions of being a great writer, but having zero creativity, imagination, including the all-vital empathy. Which wifey discovers (- he's been tap-tapping, just to give an impression to uphold the illusion, whilst warning her never to read his work). His delusions of grandeur go out of the window and, hence, IT'S GIANT TANTRUM AKA DISCARD TIME! Your mum wouldn't buy his BS. So she got discarded. Being discarded is often just a ploy, not a real dumping. When you're watching it - if you're not in the know - his giant tantrum is presented as total psychosis, which then seems to include his "Hear me typing my book" pretense job. But, nay. The tantrum is BECAUSE his wholly fraudulent impression's been found out ("curses - foiled!")...beyond redemption. So wifey - no longer capable of being duped and impressed into seeing him as The Big I Am or believing any more of his all-important, 'survivalist' BS - gets discarded, her AND "her" ("not his") mini-me. Watch with Tom and a cushion.

PS Lils: sorted. Well - one of them, the one I've spotted. I'll have another look, though, as you mentioned Scopes' intervention? Next time anyone tries to belittle and undermine your advice, please tell me straight away. On here, so-called tittle-tattling is de rigour. It's called, How's about not doing anything that anyone can tittle-tattle on? INNIT.

Found it. Intervention unnecessary. (Thanks, Scopesie. Classily done. :-))

Hey, Oooo, I didn't see that other comment, otherwise I would of said something on here. Yeah, that's what the consultant told Toms family and that they needed to prepare themselves but his dad proved him and the other doctors wrong. They tried one last time to take him off life and he was able to breath on his own. He's had a device fitted (forgotten what its called) but he's not got the all clear yet, coz he's got a chest infection, so they are keeping an eye on him. It was Tom's dad who didn't want him to know, his mum wanted to tell him, but she was also battling with his dad trying to get him to take it all seriously and go to hospitals appointments, which he refused to go to. I did notice a few times in the last year that she looked really stressed out and not herself. But yeah Tom did get his first choice for uni and there were times when he was home and they went to visit, so they could of told him sooner. Tom has calmed down about it now, and is just relieved that his dad is getting better. I think he plans to talk to his dad about it, coz he's not Ok with it. He was remembering teaching him to skate board and getting him to go running with him and he would obviously wouldn't of encouraged it, if he had known and if his dad had died he would of blamed himself. His parents told bros because they are a lot older, more settled, not necessarily more mature... his middle bro has been SO smug that Tom didn't know much and he was really enjoying rubbing it with stupid comments. He wasn't there for their dad (they don't talk) just for their mum. Tom just completely ignored him, which was probably the best way to deal with it. I'm pleased you said about psychological death and real death because when I have been really angry, I had thought to myself, it would be so much easier if my dad had died and I could of grieved properly and it would of been less painful (I think). Straight after I thought it was a sh*tty thing to think, and was quite hard on myself and then felt really guilty. Now I feel less bad :-) and It's true, I wouldn't have to read his emails or worry what he wanted when I get a missed call from him and then decide if I need to reply, I don't usually, and if I have to it's normally just one sentence. Sometimes I can just brush it off but other times it brings up different feelings and I spiral, it's not easy My dad has recently emailed about hol again. So boring, after really selling it, he mentioned Tom could come, like that's going to do it. Tom pulled face and was like 'thanks but no thanks'. So I've said no and not given a reason then got a very long I'm very disappointed, I'm trying here' kind of email back, which I've only half read. Bro not going either, sis is still adamant she is. I'm wonder if my dad will bring a long his gf (if theyre still together), I have warned sis this could happen but she doesn't think so. I didn't tell my dad this but It did clash with a camping hol tom and I are going on, which er I'm sort of looking forward, I've only ever had bad experience staying in tents. It's with some of his uni friends and they (very thoughtfully) decided that gfs could come too, nice idea, but none of us have met each other, so who knows how it will go. Anyway, bro is really likes his book. He didn't want to read it at first, I had to read it and then convince him! I didn't realise how much he blames himself, he thought the book wasn't going to help him and was going to confirm all his fears and worries. But it's made him realise that he wasn't difficult or hard to understand, (what my dad told him a lot) and that it's not his fault. He's been highlighting sentences and paragraphs that makes the most sense to him or discribes how he felt, which mainly talks about an emptiness feeling. From what bro has told me, my dad made him feel worthless. Some control and bullying went on too so bro never wanted to be on his own with him and says hes never really felt that close. Bro also reminded me of one xmas where he really wanted a game console and my dad told him no and then on the day he surprised sis with it, who really wasn't that interested, but my dad didn't let bro play on it. This happen when we were quite young and even then it felt wrong. My mum knew nothing about it and was so p*ssed off when she found out. I thought my mum was seeing someone :-/. He's a teacher friend and she's been going out with him a lot and they have made lots of plans to do things over the summer hols. She been talking about him I'm quite a lot too. I did ask my mum about it and she's said he just a good friend and they have lots of things in common. He's also divorced, which is being finalised, so my mum talks to him quite lot about that and gets advice from him. I believe her but I'm not sure how long the 'just friends' thing will last and I don't want to her to rush anything. Good thing is, as long as he's not a male version of her, is he's seemed to of replaced leech face. yes she says she has been discussing with solicitor about interim Maintenance Auntie is moving out soon :-( (we watched the shinning together), not far. younger cousin is moving in with her too, which I'm quite looking forward to :-).

INTERVENTION ABORTED....

LILS does your mum seeing another man make you feel a little uneasy? Actually what am I saying this whole thing is probably making you feel uneasy (hug) The shining ( Jack Nicholson) HERE'S JOHNNY!

Be with you tomorrow, Lils!

Ok :-D Scopes, yes you're right, I was feeling uneasy, still do a bit. She's been friends with him for years but they we're going out together a lot, like nearly everyday, and if it wasn't during the day, they were going out in the evening. And then they've got loads of other plans! I know I'm jumping way ahead but it's the whole potential bf/step parent/family thing that I don't like the idea of (yet) and that I think my mum isn't ready for. He has kids too :-/.

I wouldn't advise Tom to put *any* negativity on his dad at this still-delicate stage. If he really can't sit on his hands for a while then, rather than be confrontational about it, he might want to simply ask his dad - casually, as part of a relaxed conversation about life, the universe and everything - "fishing talk" I call it, as in the hobby (i.e. side-by-side while semi-focused on something else, preferably) what his ultimate fatherly intention had been, and what had proven the decider, when choosing not to tell over telling. "Was just wondering, that's all..." Clearly his incredibly immature and bully-ish brother knows the act came from love and paternal duty, putting Tom's lasting interests first? Why else be so jealous and acting accordingly? I mean - who's to say his dad wasn't *gagging* to tell him and had to suffer daily-constantly for having made that tough decision? Tom's brother knows it. So why doesn't Tom? Is the truth that he actually just needs to roar in his father's face, WHY IF YOU LOVE US SO MUCH DID YOU LET YOURSELF GET TO A PLACE WHERE YOU CAME SO CLOSE TO DEATH!, etc.? I think so. (Sibling jealousy over the parent(s) shouldn't feature in a healthy parented family so - that's another issue showing its head, isn't it.) We'll discuss this more, another time, though, if you want, because... Re your mum: I'm GLAD she's got a male friend in the same boat as her! Or even a male co-victim who fancies her enough to PLAY THE ROLE of a supportive friend for long enough, even if it indeed doesn't go anywhere after that! (- probably not...don't usually). And I'll tell you why: What you've just relayed of your brother's account has brought into sharp relief what a nasty, nasty man your father is. Never mind 'felt' wrong - it WAS wrong! Majorly! Sorry.... What he did, given how young your brother was, and the way he did it - and on what day he did it on - not to mention the FACT he did it at all- could BRING himself to treat a little boy that way on Christmas Day of all days - HIS OWN BABY, NO LESS - not some stranger or loose acquaintance's - HIS OWN............ was just pure evil, Lily. I'm sorry but it is. Pure. Evil. In psychological abuse terms - an act of severe mental cruelty meted out violently (i.e. violent to your brother's mind in terms of pain of impact and permanent aftermath). Severe child abuse! What came next? Marching up to babies in prams and punching them hard in the guts? Seriously - relatively-speaking, all things considered - what's the difference? ******************************** I'll tell you what *a* difference is? And a monumental one? I've heard a lot of similar stories over the years. Usually, the man (or woman) is behaving that sort of disgusting way during a very long, drawn-out, stressful split and/or divorce, behaviourally being either uncharacteristic or far less characteristic of situation normal. But nothing of that sort or extent was going on at the time, was it. You'd have said, I'm sure. So it was not even a product (as if that could excuse it!) of severe, long-term duress. It was deliberate and calculated, wholly unnecessary and avoidable. ******************************** Now you can appreciate why your brother doesn't want anything to do with him. That your brother is still healthy after a childhood containing *that*? Kudos x 10! If I were your mother - now knowing what happened - I would not feel comfortable *at all* at letting my youngest daughter spend protracted time alone with that...not 'man' - THING. Because any grown man would have to have serious psychological problems to even *dream* of an act that cruelly, mentally and emotionally sadistic - and on so many levels. It's Psychological Abuse and no messing. To a boy his age, that would have been HUGE. DEVASTATING. (I'm shocked. You can probably tell.) There is no excuse and no justification for it. Save for the mental illness underlying it, of course (he knows not what he does...because you need empathy for that). My opinion is, she can't stop your sister going unless she voices these concerns to her solicitor. And there may not be time for that. So ideally, someone needs to go with her and (ugh) him. To make sure he doesn't harm her mentally by trying to poison her mind (brainwash her) or even just introduce doubts. She has enough on her plate just trying to cope with this massively destabilizing growth spurt called starting to develop into an adult - and things like this, as you now know, can delay it. You might know better than me, but...I think the pair of you should consider going with her, Lils. Surely Tom would appreciate it was important, more important than any 'jolly' that you can all go on any other time you like? What about Auntie - would she go? Alternatively, could one of your sisters close friends go along? I'm not surprised your mother isn't interested in anything romantic - and I think you can believe her on that score. I know I do. After a man who could behave - EVEN ONCE - that incredibly nasty, cruel and sadistic (and we know it's actually not the once), I'm surprised she isn't running a mile in the opposite direction every time she so much as hears a male voice! She hasn't finished remembering everything yet, has she, your once half-asleep mother. I think *I'd* go half-asleep if I'd been married to a ...UGH! like that, as well. I'd have to. To acknowledge *all at once* what a monster I'd married, what a monstrous pair of hands I'd put my babies' welfare into... Good God, the realisation would probably tip me over into insanity! So you'd *have* to "unplug" some! To ensure your survival and that of your children! IOW, a man like that - she's a candidate for serious Stockholm Syndrome (google). Furthermore, he's not 'trying', is he, where trying means, to be a good dad. He's just harassing, pressuring, coercing, emotionally manipulating ("mew-mew, I *am* trying, poor me, you're hurting your poor dad, don't you feel *terrible*? Well, the only way to make that stop is to give me what I want") (ugh) and communicating how he thinks what you want means nothing compared to what he wants. Again. I think you should draw a ruddy great, fluorescent White boundary line. And see what he does with it, whether (doubt it) his very sick and swollen ego could even come *close* to "obeying" (- his perception) the wishes or demands of another human being- sorry "MERE FEMALE/BOY" object/accessory: I would email something like this: _____________________________________ You don't respect my feelings or the decision formed from them, which is why what you "are trying" to do is merely, wear me down. Make me change my mind by force. By provoking guilt over how bad I'm making you feel. (Fail.) I will tell you when I'm ready to see you if and when I reach the point where I feel like seeing you and contacting you. Because that would be the sign. However, feel free in the meantime to keep attempting to badger and emotionally blackmail me, and just p*ssing me off more and more with every prod and poke. With any luck, it would put me off wanting to see you altogether! (How strange, that you wouldn't know that...) You're not my father any more. Sorry. But it's true. If from now on you want to be my older acquaintance, however....and work from there to one day become 'good older friend', then I suggest you start behaving more attractively on that score; someone more on my moral and respectful level. My father - the father I thought I had - could never in a million years have behaved towards his wife and children the way you did. You abandoned us...and if that wasn't bad enough - in the most horrible way possible. Yet now wish to not have to suffer any of the effects of that freewill choice of yours and only yours. So your efforts to make me feel sorry for you - for YOU? - are just yet more insult to massive injury. I don't feel sorry for you at all - your bed, you lie on it / you wanted it, you've got it. So. As you can see, it's probably still going to be a while before I want to mix with you. From here on in, I look forward to this time seeing you respect my obvious, now Black & White explicit, wishes. If not? Own goal. _____________________________________ That...is me aged 18 writing a letter to my father, having imagined myself as you and he as your (er) dad. But it took a stretch because my father was always lovely, even under severe duress. Still, I felt it and - your poor, poor, POOR brother, my God. You don't have to, though. You can just keep doing Grey Rock. But it's what I'd do; I'd see the opportunity in it for the incredible clarity to be gained...by giving him that length of rope to see whether, how far, and how hard he hangs himself. Brilliant acid test, bring *everything* into the Irrefutable domain - where not even *he* could deny it! But Grey Rock has its own benefits. Comme ci, comme ca. Basically, if you feel like it, do; if not, not. It was satisfying writing it, though. I'll admit that, jeez. ...Too cruel and spiteful and against nature. Your father has to be a Dark Triad aka Malignant Narcissistic, Paranoid, Sadistic Psychopath or Sociopath. Sorry. I'm appalled and I'm still shocked - my brain just does not like it. I'd better sign off for now....Although, don't let this momentary reaction put you off. I know more memories - yours, all of yours - are going to be cropping up from now on. It's par for the recovery course. And it's just puke, really. All the toxins coming out, finally (hurrah!). "This too shall pass". Or you can tell me what you thought of The Shining? ('Not far' is okay. And brilliant that your cuz/new friend is moving near! :-)) PS: solicitor/IM - phew! And now tell her to brace after the Form Es are in. Assuming he hasn't had time to hide all the financial evidence, of course (probably not...was too busy sh*gging for a start). PPS: your mum will be picking this chap's brains re how to navigate the divorce process successfully...including any inside blokie tips; I'd put money on it. So that's another bonus. Because one thing I know about your mum by now: she's a self-teacher who does the all-important practical side in the School of Life. She obviously knows that academia is all well and good, but you can't beat actual experience. She is 'study on legs'. Clever lady.

Important PS: If you *were* of a mind to send him that 'rope', then, obviously don't do it until after his and your sister's holiday. You wouldn't want to poke the ego in its eyeball, right before your sister climbed in its mouth, would you.

Tom has realised that he shouldn't confront his dad for the moment. He's not himself, his memory seems to be really affected, so he knows he won't get very far with him at the moment. And Tom's middle bro, meh... I've been talking with my mum and auntie about this hol for the last few days. My mum said she would be lot happier if some one went with sis and I think we'd all worry, if no one went with her. So me and Tom are going. Tom understood, and isn't bothered about missing out on camping hol, he just told me sis and I were not going alone 'with him'. Ugh, I really don't want to go, but I understand why it's important. I think it will be the longest week of my life, thankfully it's sooner rather then later, so we can just go, get it over and done with. My dad has already put me off by ranting at me, about how it will be so much more expensive and a lot of hassle for him, booking flight etc, now we've decided to go . I ended that phone call quick...The funny thing is, when he booked mine and Tom's flights, he upgraded himself to first class, which is really gd coz we won't have to put up with him! He also doesn't like flying so the cabin crew can look after him, I feel sorry for them already. Tom's thinks distracting sis as much as poss, is the best thing to do, things that my dad wouldn't necessarily want to do, which is anything sport related. Thankfully sis is quite out going and will do most things. The other good thing is Tom never stops talking, even if he doesn't like someone (my dad), he will just talk...so I think he will fill any awkward silences. I'm trying to figure out how to be around my dad. I can ignore and put up with him feeling sorry himself, but if he says anything negative about my mum or bro, I don't think I'm going to be able to stay quiet. I'm taking lots of books too so if I'm on my own with him, I don't have to talk to him. I'm tempered to take bros book on narcassistic parents, just to see if he notices. I can appreciate where bro is coming from and I get now why he used to rebel and attention seek so much. He doesn't really do either anymore. I am very tempted to draw the line and send my dad an email like that after hol. I was going to put it depends what he's like on holiday but he's not going to change. My mum has given me more insight to my dad, some of it up set me quite a bit and I'm still getting my head around what's she's told me. Auntie didn't even know half the stuff she said and it sounds like she was really unhappy most of the time. One of the things my mum said he liked to do was make xmas as missable as he could and birthdays too, but when it came to his birthday, we had to go on hol and it was all about him. This is true, I remember him shouting and telling me I was spoilt, a couple of days before my 13 th birthday, coz I didn't want to celebrate the day, the way he wanted me to (coz it was inexpensive!). My mum defended me but he held a grudge until the day, and I was the one who had to apologise and make up with him. Yeah, lots of memories are cropping up. We argued quite a lot :-/ but I think that's coz I kind of recognised he wasn't a nice person and he didn't go about things in the right way. My mum was worried she has turned me against him but he's done that himself. When it comes to sending this email I want to be clear in my mind and not my doubt myself. And when I start uni, it will be kind of like a new start...hopefully.

Small update back from hol, sis has seen my dad for who he really is and I'm drafting an email now to send.

"So me and Tom are going." I didn't want to be alarmist at the time in how I put that suggestion, in case you really couldn't and would end up needlessly feeling terrible and helpless for the entire fortnight, but...suffice it to say, OH, THANK GOD! I could kiss you and Tom, I really could! [exhales] ***** Yes,...Tom's middle brother. Figuratively put - if he feels his supplier is shortchanging him, he'd do better to take it up with him than achieve nothing but more misery for himself in the long run by taking it out on one of the other customers (duuh...but then people with issues always do have less brainpower to spare). Although, obviously, the onus falls to the supplier to ensure all of his customers are equally happy. Something amiss or dysfunctional with the supplier, then. Would Tom concede to the suggestion that his brother tends to get somewhat overlooked and deprived by his father in terms of attention and approval? There's a simple solution. Tom supplies him instead. (It'll faze his brother at first...but he'll get used to it and start to appreciate it.) He gets the lion's share of dad-love as per, but concertedly and deliberately shares it with his brother, thereby simply acting as attention broker (although you have to give quite a lot to make up for a parental deficit) (see Cheryl Cole Versini Versace Ministrone Fabdabeedozie (whatever)). No different to a parent giving solely you a bag of sweets and you turning round and merrily and defiantly (whilst playing dumb - "touche!") sharing them with your siblings, as a way of saying, You can be as unfair as you like in whatever areas, with anyone you like, but, not me, not on my watch, you don't - so don't expect my cooperation in your slapdash parenting, thanks v much. You and Tom might have that much more in common than you think, in other words. Not weight-for-weight, obviously. But - same general ball-park. ***** No, course you didn't want to go - who would? But it's a great mental muscles developer...there's at least that. Remember and never forget: no experience is ever bad experience. It's only zero experience that's bad experience. -And- Any lemons can be turned into Lemonade. But you've no doubt been and come back by now. (Haven't read ahead.) How much more expensive? So he thought he'd exacerbate that greater expense three-fold via an upgrade to 1st class no less? What the hell is this loon talking about? Upgraded himself, note. That wasn't an upgrade, it was a scarper job. He felt uncomfortable knowing that a healthy thus rightfully and automatically judgemental other male was a non-negotiable part of getting you to come, that's what it was. So he machinated his Yellow self away from Tom. Or the combo of you & Tom (two Lilys, "aargh!"). Under a grossly ludicrous excuse. Berbom. Good job they even had a 1st class seat to begin with or I'm betting your father would have insisted on going in the hold! Scary Tom...."whuuu-uuu-uuuuuurrrr!", lol. Me, I'd have said, 'Why, Father Dearest? Are you hoping to make some of the cost back via the Mile High Club?'. But seriously... it's not Tom's dad nor even once-dad (illusion dad), is it. So - no Rose Tinteds, not even half-hanging-off ones, on Tom. Tom sees him and sees his true colours, clear as day. Your dud knows that (oops, typo, never mind). (sorry, resisting impossible at this point!) So did the constant distraction and sequestering work? ***** Who said you HAD to stay quiet? Were you? BE YOURSELF, INCLUDING HOW YOU NATURALLY FEEL LIKE BEING. This is no time for anyone to demand your self-restraint and etiquette when they themselves can't even manage mere basic humanity(!). And anyway, you're in Intensive Care, you're ALLOWED to wail, rage and thrash about, particularly if your very attacker appears at the door. If you've been caged for long enough, the only antidote is to be free for long enough. But to get around the lack of another x years in which to wait to heal - by 'being free to the power of 10'. Free Super-Condensed...faster antidote. Warning: Don't torture yourself with trying to make your father see and admit to his condition and crimes against any of you, because intrinsic to his condition is NOT GIVING A SH*T. He'd probably think it was just yet more reason to feel different and special and above the rest of the hoi polloi. They usually do. They're VERY VERY GOOD - nay, VIRTUOSO - at convincing themselves of complete and utter b*llocks. They con themselves that they're Mr Great Guy come Superman (without the hard-work credentials to back it up) as much as any other person, believe you me. ***** Yep - your poor little bro. How mentally alone and isolated he must have felt through all of that, trying to keep it to himself and deal with it somehow, in a bid not to fail at being 'manly'.... "Daddy hates me...I must be very bad and unlovable". Again, I just can't imagine... ***** No, he isn't going to change. But what he MIGHT do (- have done) is, pretend he has. Love-Bomb re-hook. They have two methods for re-engaging you in the relationship (luring you back into the battle or slave-cage): lick your a*se or pick a fight/offend. Did he? ****** "My mum has given me more insight to my dad, some of it up set me quite a bit and I'm still getting my head around what's she's told me. " Please can I know what else she told you? Anyway, all varieties of high-on-the-scale narcissistic people or actual malignant Narcissists ruin Christmas, it's a well-known symptom and complaint. Google something like, Why do Sociopaths deliberately ruin holidays? You'll see. Yep. Your birthday is somehow All About Him. 'Me-Me-Me (and screw you!)'. And yep again - lots of memories (of which you are experiencing just the start of the influx). You'd have buried them all in order not to fall into kiddie depression at the realisation that your dad was a selfish, cruel, mean, unfeeling nutter, think about it. They were typed-up sheets each time. Emotional sheets...records of every event and minute-by-minute contents...for review by you. Where you did you hide them, because you certainly didn't dare put them in your Pending tray? Did you stuff them down the back of the filing cabinets, thinking, I'll deal with them another time? This is that another time. It's safe to read through them now, ...'to remember'. So remember, you will. Increasingly. So now you're going to have these sheets shoved at you by that temporary holding compartment in your mind, on whatever regularity of basis. Possibly without warning. Possibly in your sleep (so sleep more, it's less painful). And you'll have to read them...one by one...And decide where and how to file them away, finally, for instant recall or achiving or cross-referencing... But that's easy, really... "Yep, that goes in He's A Sick Tw*t....so does that....and that....oh, and that...andthatanthatanthat!". Easy, but upsetting, outraging, infuriating, despair-making (for a bit). Until it starts to strike as strangely amusing (and becomes great family comedy fodder). Until it becomes boring. And finally, quietly, background-ly sad. And finally.....nothing. You should all try a group Remember When session, in a circle on floor cushions (lolling)...on a Saturday night, with a drinkipoos and nibbles. And be as scathingly bitchy as you all like! Include impressions! It'll be SO cathartic. And bonding. ***** "We argued quite a lot :-/ but I think that's coz I kind of recognised he wasn't a nice person and he didn't go about things in the right way." Edit: We argued a lot :-/ and that's coz I recognised he wasn't a nice person and didn't go about things in the right way. PS: Narc's version of you being spoiled: them giving you a glass of water from their x Gallon bottle in the middle of a desert trek (that they forced or tricked you on). How verray dare you! "My mum was worried she has turned me against him but he's done that himself." Classic line! Yes. Because you have a mind of your own. And a damn fine one, too. But I think what your mum was really saying, was, I'm worried he's going to start accusing me of turning you against him (and using that to get 'revenge' aka excuse to beat me up again). You might want to slide into your email, something like this: ...So I'm sorry if you and mum both think I should be seeing you regularly and pretending things are instantly back-to-normal, but I'm an adult now, as such, perfectly capable of making my own decisions, which include, NOT pretending the emperor's wearing new clothes or sweeping under the rug. (See the smoke-screen-seamlessness? ;-) EASIEST people in the world to (counter-) manipulate!) ***** Not 'hopefully' - definitely. :-) Over to you and your email (when you're ready).... Well done.

Sorry - THREE methods. The Silent Treatment (giant toddler sulk for punishing or ignoring for re-luring).

Hey, Been trying to figure out Tom's middle bro for a while. Tom won't say much about him, middle bro is the only topic he doesn't like to talk about. His mum has confined in me a tinnny bit about him. So there's like a 12 year age gap, tom was a surprise baby and middle bro was apparently very jealous, they tried to help him but he's always continued to be jealous and bully, not just tom, but apparently with past gfs, non of them stick around for long and he's fallen out with their dad too. And to me its weird on a man who is in his 30s. But I can't help but think my bro might of turned out just as bitter as an adult if we hadn't of listened to him. So I'm not too sure what's happened, but I don't think either of toms parents are narcs, middle bro may be tho. ***************************** I'm relieved we went too, because I think sis could of either come back tramatised or turned against everyone. To start with my dad turned up at the house (again) wanting to take us to the airport, saying it was easier if we all went together, when I told him before we'd meet him there, obviously he didn't listen and thought he'd just turn up! Sis wasn't even home. I was home alone and he wanted to wait (not in his car, inside the house), I told him no, I had to be really assertive and ended up closing the door on him coz he kept on arguing with me saying he had driven forty minutes out of his way (his bl**dy choice). He eventually got the message and went away. I also think he wanted my mum to see us drive away with him. He was in a bad mood with me from then on. Urgh, he tries to ar*e lick but he fails miserably, I think because his guestures or what he says when he tries to be nice, don't seem genuine. So he falls back into being insulting and argumentative. During the first couple of days, he tried to lecture me on uni and biz and was shocked that I hadn't confined in him. I've changed my mind a few times about going to uni and I've been trying to figure out how to make both work. When I didn't give him the information he wanted he became quite aggressive, not to mention we were out in public and his voice got louder and louder. He 'advised me'/insulted me that I should focus on biz because (apprently) I'm 'not the most academic person'. Huh, that discussion ended quickly! With sis, she went along to a kids club, something I thought she'd never do and made some new friends (Y), we still kept an eye on her and meet up with her every couple of hours. on the third day my dad had another tantrum because he wanted to buy me an early birthday present , I said no thanks, I had a feeling he was going to somehow use it against me if I agreed. he sulked for the rest of the day, so we just left him alone. Then later on that day as far as Tom and I were concerned sis was with her new friends, but my dad had found her and taken her to dinner, where he slagged off each of us, mainly auntie, on how mean she's always been to him over the years. He was trying to get her to agree with him. Thankfully sis didn't fool for any of it, told him to stop, which he didn't, so she got up and left him . she didn't want anything to do with him for the rest of the hol. The last four days were a little uncomfortable, sis needed a bit of consoling, she was confused but we also made sure we went off and did things. On the way home when sis and I weren't around, my dad tried to persuade Tom to swap seats with him, to which he said no, then my dad asked him what he had done so Tom told him...not in a polite way, even though he knew it wouldn't make a difference. He thought I was going to be angry with him but I really couldn't of cared less. He does see right through him and he has done for ages now. He's has pointed to me a few times (even before this all kicked off) when my dad and I have conversations there is always hidden criticism and belittling. We were all pleased to be home, tom went off to join uni friends on the last few day of camping hol (no doubt to recover from all the drama) . my mum and bro were away so sis and I went and joined them, which was a good idea because both sis and I were quite emotional and just not ourselves for a good few days. We talked but then needed our own space. Not heard anything from my dad. I've been playing around with this email, I've slid in the bit you've suggested too. not actually changed much from what you wrote before because I don't think I could put it any better. It's just sending it, I'm not sure how I'm going to be after, even though I don't want anything to do with him. The other stuff my mum told me was did used to like ruining holidays, not just birthdays or xmas. There were a few times where we went on holiday with auntie and cousins and he always picked a fight or caused some sort of scene. At work his patients always complained about him and unsympathetic he was and a lot patients refused to see him. I know that from when I used to 'work' there, not that he paid me. Also when bro was born my dad left my mum to do everything, he wasn't bothered about bonding with bro :-(. And Bro was cute when he was little! My mum eventually got fed up withy dad and drove to aunties house (I vaguely remember this) and told auntie she wanted to leave him but she was preg with sis and she was scared to tell him :-/. The more my mum talks and tells me this stuff the more I remember, and yeah, it's not a nice feeling and I don't know who he is anymore. Think I'm going to organise a b*tching session, with auntie and cousin too, I normally like don't like bi*tching about other people ...but it sounds good and I think we all need to.

First off: Bravo! (Anger Issues at Least) So impressive. Keep it up, if you will. :-)

" Tom won't say much about him, middle bro is the only topic he doesn't like to talk about. " Ooh, he doesn't want to do that, tell him. That just intrigues you and I EVEN MORE! LOL He wants to be *hiding* it, not highlight it - "duuh", LOL. But seriously, you could, if you wanted, point out that established partners don't have secrets? Especially about things that will obviously be having some impact on your relationship or dynamic, making it your business too. Have you noticed a pattern with Tom, in that, he's got a bit of an immature idea of what's "manly" and what isn't? (I am eyeing his dad suspiciously. Sorry, but I am.) Oh! Good old mum, hurrah! ...Yep. It's weird to me too, Lily. What's weirder is a 12-year-old being jealous of a new-born baby. (Did he still want his own bot-bot Talcum-ed or something?) 'Tried to help him' - HOW? Did she say? (Whatever it was, it didn't work, did it.) Narcs come under Sociopathy, meaning, more often than not, or at least overly predominantly, family and/or society-made (basically), usually involving one pathological parent. It's Psychopathy that's 'born with' (or, I should say, the predispositions as aren't cultivated/repressed correctly by parents/society in order to raise a healthy, highly brave and level-headed Pro Social Psycho, thanks largely to societal-wide ignorance about psychopaths and kiddie psychopaths....now lessening, thank uck). And remember: malignant psychos are emotionless....cold (bar anger)....all emotions contrived for the purposes of manipulation and blending-in as a neurotypical...you couldn't insult their ego if you tried (self-esteems genuinely over-high), you can only p*ss them off by posing as an obstruction. So...re-refer to 'HOW?' question. ************ Bet your mum was even more relieved, eh! ************ Now to your dud: IMMEDIATELY he's trying to use your acquiescence and the situation to his advantage! I'll bet he wanted to catch a glimpse of your mum, gauge what state she was in, overpower her with his (puke) alluring presence as well as wind her back up by whichever means to re-engage her in the battle and/or gain revenge in the way you suggested (well deduced!). After all, if it were easier to all go together then it's even easier as well as sensible to phone ahead to arrange collecting you. Ah, but... then mum would have ensured to be out or shut in her bedroom at that point. Mm-hmm. You and sis are still chess pieces, apparently. Wow. Just read the bit about how you handled it. Cor Blimey, Lily, have you just undergone a massive growth-spurt or something? Very impressively handled, missus. Tsk-awww....was da thwarted wickle baby in a bad mood with you?, awwww.... Bet you were heartbroken, eh. PS: You make it sound like he ever experiences the good kind! Well, if he does, he's got a funny way of showing it. So - edit: from then on he went somewhat mask-free (- the Narcopath's idea of naturism, LOL) Ah-hah, he's started to irritate and DISGUST you now! There you go.... good ol' Detachment & Recovery process. You've hit genuine Acceptance. (For the first time, anyway. There's usually a bit of backsliding in the grieving process so just be aware and not let it disappoint you when/if.) But - yep. "Can I have a biscuit, lovely mummy? / No, too close to teatime / UCK YOU (etc)!")... Bash-bash/lick-lick/bash-bash... or put another way: coerce or bully/seduce/coerce or bully... What age is he, do you now think? None of them are over emotional-age 14, btw. Does that fit or - younger? Can you not make both work? Well, anyway, look at the evidence: if you really wanted to go to Uni you wouldn't be humming and hahing over it. If thoughts of the biz are stopping you then it's obviously a force to be reckoned with. Academic (theoretical) Uni or Uni Of Life? Two paths, same destinaton but one of them far quicker and more direct. Question: which one am I talking about there? Whatever you answer will be your answer. :-) But for now: 'not the most academic person'? Yes. And you're Black. And a man. In fact - a cat. (Cheers for the laugh, dud!) What's it to him, anyway? Plus - ask him: how's academic mindedness aka the holy grail of intellectualism working out for him, lately? (*squish*) I mean, who wants advice off of someone who's so thick he can't even avoid being rejected by his own wife who once loved him so incredibly much that one 'output' (baby) wasn't enough, and nor was two...? (*stomp*) Anyway, he missed his truer vocation. As a stand-up comedian. (*Brabantia*) At least then you could have thrown rotten tomatoes at him. (*landfill*) He doesn't get it, does he. (Or won't.) He BROKE the father-daughter relationship as well as broke your respect for him, your ability to trust a single thing he says or that he means well as he says it. He does not get the fatherly perks without the fatherly work. And what work he 'did' do, he sent up in flames. So he has to start again...do the work....until the day when you decide you can take a single thing he thinks or says seriously again. Talk about wanting his cake and eating it...shoehorning himself back into position with you? You're way more academic than him because you can work out - gosh, wow - that choices and behaviour like his can only end in tears. For everyone at first, but permanently for him. Next time he shouts at you, yell, 'WHAT? STOP WHISPERING, I CAN'T HEAR YOU!'. Or just look at him and silently mouth a few sentances, replete with hand gestures, LOL. Have fun with it. That's how to re-energise yourself. Alternatively, do the low-energy, Queen Victoria: Thank-you for your advice, I shall take it on board [, send it straight across the deck and make it walk the plank]. But don't let him even insult you. It'd be like feeling insulted by a 2-year-old (12/13/14 only when in neutral, note). Your response in that circ. would be merely, 'Ah....Is that so?...okay, then.' (And sis is already capable of wanting and making new friends? Excellent, you're all healing really well and really speedily. Although - how's bro?) He wanted to give you an early a*se-lick? How ice of him. "I gatta feeling!..." Your sense was correct (and name the group and hit!). It's funny, isn't it. Why not just wait until he's got the gift and present it to you - why SAY? Answer: because then you 'cooperate' as means he doesn't have to follow through. I had a male friend who used to do that (not the rest of it, just that...just an approval-seeker). Until one day (cuz I lurn, me!), he said: "For your birthday [10 months away], I've decided I'm going to buy you a telly!". So I turned around and said, "Well, for yours I'm going to buy you a spaceship!". He said, 'Tsk, no you're not?'. I said, 'Touche!'. I think he got it. But then he wasn't a dud. Hmmm. Isn't it equally funny how, until his sh*t hit the fan, he never behaved towards Auntie as if she'd always been mean to him? Quite the opposite, in fact! Hmm...can't work it out, me. What about you, Lils? Walked off? Did she? Crikey! She's a bloody fast learner as well, then, isn't she! It's not fair, though, is it. No girl her age should have to deal with that size of (broken) adult sh*t through having to exert adult-sized courage. I'm not surprised she had a reaction, poor thing. Anyway, that was a blatent Triangulation attempt. If he wanted back a sense of inclusion with one of you then - HOW'S ABOUT BEING NICE AND IMPRESSIVE! (Why bother when you can more instantly just BASH it into being.) He didn't do much 'holiday-ing' by the sounds of it, did he. "Daad, chillax!...You're on *holidayyyy*....Save the manipulation and machination for when you get baack, duude-I mean dud- I mean duuude." So basically... Less a holiday and more a couple of weeks in a cheap daytime soap-opera. You must feel very refreshed. If not, you haven't stuck them down there hard enough - try again. Ha-ha. Ooh. Nice one, Tom. I mean - ordinarily, you wouldn't. But this isn't. So - nice one. (And PS: Yes, no doubt.) "there is always hidden criticism and belittling." Course there is, you're a threat (won't be led like a drugged-up sheep nor word-salad-ed or gaslit into submission plus keep popping the illusions & delusions bubble with your reality pin...how verray dare you have a mind of your own and refuse to be brainwashed). Where did mum and bro go? Did they have a holiday of their own? "both sis and I were quite emotional and just not ourselves for a good few days." To be expected. That was no holiday. It was a Helladay. "We talked but then needed our own space." You shared and cross-verified data before going off to your separate filing cabinets to file it all away in the right places, which requires (background) focus and concentration. (Tick!) You've done *everything* right. Once he gets with the new (self-created) programme he'll realise the only way is to PLAY IT STRAIGHT and show empathy and respect. Or not. Either outcome will be mentally liberating and transforming for you all, Lils. By refusing to play his games, you have forced things to a massive head. Which saves a lot of time and unnecessary heartache. I now dub you Survivors. :-) As for your email, just keep attempting to send it. When the time is right your finger will finally hit home. You don't want anything to do with him as he is now, granted. But wait to see if he can turn himself around. We already suspect strongly, he won't. But theory alone is no match for experience (and certainly no match for the two together). He didn't used to pay you?! Seriously? I mean, clearly it was no offered favour on your part or we wouldn't be having this part of the justifiably bitter conversation... Did all those hours interfere with your schoolwork, by any chance? AND YET THIS IS THE MAN WHO'S JUST ACCUSED YOU OF NOT BEING VERY ACADEMIC (to which I say, define academic). "Also when bro was born my dad left my mum to do everything, he wasn't bothered about bonding with bro :-(. And Bro was cute when he was little! My mum eventually got fed up withy dad and drove to aunties house (I vaguely remember this) and told auntie she wanted to leave him but she was preg with sis and she was scared to tell him :-/" Very common scenario. Highly. In fact - textbook. "The more my mum talks and tells me this stuff the more I remember, and yeah, it's not a nice feeling and I don't know who he is anymore." You're getting to know him. The real him, I mean. That takes time. And you're well on the way so don't worry. This 'not nice feeling' is your mental muscles being sore from a super-condensed exercise regime. Just wait until it's finished and you clock yourself naked in the mirror. It'll all have been worth it. Trust me. This is good. It's a good that shouldn't ever have happened, shouldn't have been possible to happen, but sadly does and has. Use it to your advantage by reminding yourself of an oft missable fact: you never needed a spare dad; the dad you had was more than adequate; and was and shall remain highly convenient with it, by being located in the same body as your mum. :-) He was not your father, he was your sibling (permanently stuck at age 12-14 down to 2). Much like Tom's brother. 'Normally' doesn't come into this. Any of it. You're not b*tching about someone. You're b*tching about a nasty, nasty, mentally and morally corrupt monster who doesn't even want your pity or compassion or opposite to bitching or anything. He just wants what he wants when he wants it, uses his tools to get it, and who cares if the tools gets hurt when he can always con them into sucking up their hurt afterwards (while slowly-but-surely losing their confidence<-->sanity) - and repeat... But let's keep waiting to see if he can 'un-monster'. What's important, here, is you lot and how you are. Because you're the viable human beings and you have jobs to do. This too shall pass. And when it does, you won't even care that it did. You'll see it all as merely the gym equipment (him the painfully heavy dumbbell) that got you so impressively and usefully AND JOYOUSLY pumped whereby you became so incredibly capable. There's no Lose here. Not for you. "Just keep swiii-mmming, just keep swii-mmming...." :-) And keep on answering pertinent threads (if you want and have time). You'll get to know unmasked-him that way too. Safely and relaxedly. In the meantime, however - yeah, I know what you mean.

PS: You haven't even seen what your mumdad can do yet - back to full strength and without someone sitting on her head the whole time, I mean.

yeah, I have noticed something with Tom, usually he's very very thoughtful, quite romantic, but then he can do the most immature, annoying thing and he doesn't like being questioned about it. I'm guessing that has something to do with the late teens early 20s, male, narc you mentioned before, which I'm waiting for him to come out of. Yeah, by now he should know by now I like to know all the answers, and if he doesn't open up and give them to me then there are other ways of finding out. Usually Mum fills me in. And I probably will point that out to him one day. Toms Mum told me she left her job and took three years off to give both Tom and middle bro (and older bro but he was normal) her full attention. She said she didn't understand the jealousy either but she wanted to try, not sure what she did, I don't know if he got counselling. Hmm you got me suspecting his dad now too. he's always been nice to me but the fall out between him and middle bro I think might be a sign, whatever it's about. Not sure. *************** I sent the email the other day and I got a sh*tty response back, almost straight away, where my dad has taken offence and it feels like he's disowned me, hes told me not to ask for anything from him now or in the future finaically or, lol, emotionally. I wasn't planning to. He's completely delusional in that he thinks bro and sis will want a relationship with him again one day, thats up to them, but I doubt they will.I feel like he's singled me out a bit, I think because I sent him an email and I'm standing up to him. Yeah I thought it was something to with him wanting my mum to see us get in his car and drive away with him. I closed the door on him because I didn't know what else to do! Other then stand there and argue back with him, and I didn't really have time (or energy) to do that. I wouldn't of done it a few months ago when he first tried to come round. Anyway he's slammed the door (I didn't slam I just closed it) in my face before, so you could say it was learnt behaviour or pay back :-p. He was in a bad mood with me but then he was also showing off coz he was in first class at the airport. Hes l two when he throws a tantrum and the rest of the time he's like 12 yr old, no higher, coz sis is more mature then him! His insult was a load of cr*p coz when I was at school he'd have a fit if I got like a c coz it was 'average'. Or if I got an A he was always like 'what happened to the A*?!'. Then there was a very long boring lecture about why...he did the same with bro and he was meaner to him. Didn't do it with sis, not very surprisingly. Biz and uni can work my mum will carry on with piano lessons in term time and we still got singing teacher too, so still offer two things. They both want to do it too. Got no kids who want to learn guitar. Then in the hols, when it's it busy, I will be home to take over. Sent out an email informing parents there is going to be a change and all of them were understanding. With uni I was going to go to a local one and was going to drive and stay at home. I didn't really want to live in halls and I'm not a clubbing, drinking person so wasn't too bothered on missing out on the social side either. Also wasn't too sure about being away from my mum and sibs. But then my Mums friends daughter told me she had thought she has the same idea but she got stuck in traffic every day, public transport was really bad and her advice was don't Do it! So I changed my mind and now I'm looking forward to it and my mums convinced its fine if that's what I want to do. I did tell sis that if she found herself on her own with my dad and he was making her feel uncomfortable or was upsetting her, to get away from him and no one was would be angry with her. Was clever that she realised what he was doing though and she was confident to leave him sitting there on his own. The one time I got paid when working for my dad was when one of the other Drs (who was also a partner) said to me I was doing a gd job and he appreciated coz it was a really boring tedious job (filing) and I he hoped my dad was paying, and I said 'no he wasn't' and he went had had words with my dad. And he came back and told he had sorted it and I would be getting paid. But that was the only time coz he hen retired! And yeah it did interrupt with school work it became quite stressful trying to get homework done. Yeah my mum and bro went away, a few days after us, think she thought it was only fair. I'm pleased my mum encouraged us to join them because sis and I needed those few days to get over Helliday. Bro is smitten with gf still could do with more friends tho, I don't think he realises that people like him. He has decided he wants to go to Med school. I think he always wanted to be a doctor, and out of the three of us he always been the most likely one. He's always talked about it right from being small but (again) my dad bashed his confidence instead of encouraging him. since he's been back at school, he's started to take things really seriously, his teachers must be in shock. He said he wants a nice dr not a d*ckhead like dad, ha, and wont make people feel and about being ill. Ok, will carry on answering posts, I got quite a bit of time at the moment.

Hi LILS sorry I've been out of the loop for a while I've been having problems logging on to this thread. Hopefully all of my issues have been resolved thanks to the administrator

Ugh, I shall join you on the Frustration Bench, Scopes! Just typed a whole long reply, didn't realise it'd meanwhile logged me out, sent without copying, and lost the lot (aargh!). I'll speak to Richard. Hi, by the way! How goes it? ***** Lils, now that I'm out of time for doing it all over again, suffice it to say - everything you've done is perfect, you've got a really good handle on this, including having tied your father's hands as well as deterred him from trying - from *wanting* to try! - anything with you again, leaving you free to recover the rest of the way, unimpeded, yet having (futilely) fixed his attention on you (meaning, away from the others). Did you put in the bit about 'you and mum may both think'? In fact, may I see your sent version, please? You got a non-befittingly knee-jerk, *sibling* reaction because that's the only type of response they and their very stunted, swollen egos can give. What you've also done - assuming you let mum and auntie in on the email? (do! - vital!) - is grab the adult baton. That won't be lost on them; they'll feel duty-bound to take it back (no bosses like to be shown-up by a 'minion' ;-)). But now that you've physically *and* psychologically, gently-but-very-firmly closed the door on him, be warned that he might turn his attention back to sis and auntie (not mum if you indeed included that add-on; that'll get him trying to gain *more* (cough!) support and approval...lick-lick-lick, favours-favours...tell her use it or lose it). However, that's not a problem now that your own hands (and hers(?)) are freed. Plus, you've set the tone: tell it like it is (he can't take it and will give any similar truth-sayer a wide berth) - no excuses, no allowances, no kind or flattering 'reflections' in your mirror...nada. It's 'shape up or ship out' (or get your ankles torn to ribbons). Now that Tom's away from his brother, things should improve. As for brother, he's not ready for new friends to match his new & improved self because he's still got a couple more miles until he passes the chequered flag. When he does, his N&I self will automatically attract likewise better, healthier friends than ever. Why fart around in the interim with 'better than crap, but not Best'? They're a distraction when you're trying to heal. After all, if he didn't like himself, if the confidence-knocking attempts had worked, he wouldn't be gagging to show the doctor how it's *supposed* to be done. Granted, that's him trying to PROVE his father wrong with the ultimate irrefutable (as a giant two-fingers-up), but that's just him seeking validation through himself (considering it isn't ever to be found from source). Re uni: if I were you I'd just drive home for the weekends (and phone each mid-week to check everyone's coping...which I'm sure they will if they know what you did). It's great that you already have a successful, thriving, income-supplying, *family*-benefitting biz because now you're free to really enjoy what will just be a flourish. There is NOTHING to beat having on your C.V. 'own/started-up own business'! (Don't forget the patenting or trademarking.) What's greatest of all is that your sister got to 'stand on your toes' to learn how to dance the I'm Voting With My Feet by Walking Away From You and Your BS dance and clearly learnt it by-heart in one swoop! It's the most powerful anti-Narc tool of all, particularly if used by the Golden Child. It's how you slay the dragon (or tame it, if there's any taming to be had). Once you're all out of his crosshairs he'll have nothing to shoot at. Except himself. Or new acquaintances, of course. Where in the divorce process is your mum? Has she received her Form E yet? If not, when does her solicitor reckon it's coming? (Remember, time is of the essence with these asset/wealth-squirrelers). Is her solicitor well used to any type of narcissistic spouses? Is dud dragging his feet already on that score, trying to buy squirrelling time? Lastly, but not leastly - your posts are WUNDERBAR! Thank-you. :-)

Soulmate I'm having to go through a convoluted process to leave a reply. As for me I've been quite busy

So, below is what I ended up sending, wasn't completely satisfied and worried some of the stuff I added was blunt but felt like it needed to be a bit honest. My mum and auntie both read it, said it was good and encouraged me to send it and then not worry. Sis wanted me to put in the bit about the hol, wasn't talking on her behalf. Got a sh*tty response as you know which I didn't reply to. But yesterday my dad emailed saying that he realised he replied too quickly, and was sorry for what he said. He's re read it and taking it to his counsellor so they can work on it. He said I didn't need to reply, which I haven't. ******* Dad, I'm writing to you because I need to express to you how I feel. There is a big part of me that is desperate for you to try and understand this email because I want a relationship, but at the moment we don't have one and haven't done for a while now. Since coming back from Holiday, it been on an emotional rollercoaster for sis and I to say the least. I'm not going to sit back and not say anything. During holiday you were argumentative, insulting and childish, the whole time, in how you behaved and how you talked to all three of us. I (we) won't be coming with you a holiday again for a long time. I wasn't going to go into the details but ( (sis) asked me to put this in) as an (final) attempt, to try and make you understand how much your words and behaviour hurts, the most obvious thing that happened on holiday was when (sis) walked away from you at dinner that evening. You were upsetting her and she didn't want to be in your company anymore. Just to make you aware I stayed up with (sis) until 4am in the morning, consoling her, I didn't mind, but all she wanted at that point was to go home and not be near you. Hence why we avoided you on the last few days. You don't respect my feelings or any of the decisions I make and yet somehow your shocked when I don't confine in you. You do what you want to do with no consideration for how others might feel or what position you put them in, (like turning up at the house) it's all for your own selfish reasons and I'm beginning to see they're spiteful mind games too. I will tell you when I'm ready to see you, if and when I reach the point where I feel like seeing you and contacting you. Because that would be a sign. You keep mentioning family counselling but it's not going to work currently because its you who needs to work on yourself, no one else. You're not my father any more, I don't actually who you are. Sorry. But it's true. If from now on you want to be my older acquaintance, however....and work from there to one day become 'good older friend', then I suggest you start behaving more attractively on that score; someone more on my moral and respectful level. My father, the father I thought I had, could never in a million years have behaved towards his wife and children the way you did. You abandoned us, and if that wasn't bad enough - in the most horrible way possible. As you can see, it's probably still going to be a while before I want to mix with you. So, I'm sorry if you and mum both think I should be seeing you regularly and pretending things are instantly back-to-normal, but I'm an adult now, as such, perfectly capable of making my own decisions, which include, NOT pretending the emperor's wearing new clothes or sweeping under the rug. Lily ************* Hi scopes! Was wondering where you were :-). Will reply to the rest later.

Scopes - convoluted how? Glad you're well in yourself, though. ***************************************************************** Lils, Oh, it *was* good! I nearly fell off my chair it was so good! I even blurted out-loud as I read it: GOOD GOD, THIS YOUNG WOMAN'S A GENIUS!, followed by an involuntarily laugh out of pure shock and admiration. If you're like this now then - good god, world stand back! (in a good way). Notwithstanding... back to LaLa Land and one of the rules for survival: 'Anything you say to a Narc/Cluster B, can and will be taken down and used against you' (in this case, the Giant Silent Treatment/Devaluation + Discard): "There is a big part of me that is desperate for you to try and understand this email because I want a relationship". BIG (PART) DESPERATE FOR YOU TO (SHOW) YOU UNDERSTAND WANT (A RELATIONSHIP WITH YOU) = "Here's my tender spot" = *BASH!* Had your email been to a normal father, on the other hand - Gold Star! You still warrant a Gold Star, however, regardless. Because in this precise context and stage of the (sick) game, what you gave him via this disclosure snippet was 'enough rope' / 'forced to a head'. Entrapment. :-) I suspect that was the real reason you felt as you did (and read it as 'worried that it weren't satisfactory', despite two elders saying it was perfect and proving it). Next, you failed to react to his knee-jerk...failed to insta-respond in a way that showed devastation and panic. Hence, his next move: "my dad emailed saying that he realised he replied too quickly, and was sorry for what he said. " (B*llocks. He'd only 'realise' - only have something TO realise - if he were a 10-year-old.) You watch what happens after he's had enough counselling sessions. Answer: eff-all but worse than before. Cluster Bs, Narcissistic, do not use the tool called Counsellor to self-better. They use it, i.e. abuse it, as ammo for 'bettering' their torture tactics and verbal attempts to avoid all responsibility and culpability. (If on the other hand he'd said, no need to reply but obviously feel free if you want or need to - THEN I might have believed him. Feel the differencio? He's trying reverse psychology on the one hand, married with blocking your ability to respond on the other - hedging his bets - thereby emotionally repressing you. But you 'know' that - hence haven't (tick!). ....Although you've only got his word that he'll take it to counselling or that he's even on board with any counsellor, have you not?). PS: So I'm to assume mum 'got' the "seamless smokescreen" about her being wholly cooperative with him?

Just to be absolutely clear: He tried the "bash-bash!" (targeted to where you said it hurt). It failed (you failed to do "ow!", instead did "face/bovvered!") so he switched to "lick-lick!". BTW, he also set up a future Triangulation. He's going to start saying, 'Well, my counsellor says...'. Your reply should be, 'No she doesn't'.

Yay a survivor and a genius! :-D Yeah, the bit about being desperate, I was undecided on whether to put that, but in the end I thought there is a part of me that is desperate for him to understand but I know is not going to happen or very unlikely to. With the bits I added, mainly the hol bit, it felt like I had to be very clear and was telling off a not very bright 12 yr old. On 'Helliday' when my dad was trying to get info on uni from he didn't like the fact that I was going to study counselling and psychology and muttered 'I don't like counsellors' and I was like 'oh well, you won't like me then coz that's what I want to do!'. That's when he tried to talk me into sticking with biz. Also made me think if he was actually still going to counselling. So I didn't believe his sorry email either, this is it now, I'm not replying anymore. Yeah my mum got it, she was really pleased that I put that bit in the email. My mum says she should be getting the e forms this week. When my dad wrote back the sh*tty, she went mad and got me to print it off and she took into her solicitor to get advice and I think just to show him how my dad can be and now he has a very good idea. As soon as middle bro leaves there is no tension but I am working on Tom coz I dont think it's all middle bro. His dad already had a heart attack and not gone bk to his normal self (it took him five guesses to get my name right the other day), so he'll need both his bros one day. Tom says he's never been to his middle bros house before, never been invited, so thats what I'm working towards (slowly), and he's not told me to butt out, so I'm taking that as he's thinking about it. We had a b**ch night the other night :-D with home made pizza (made by tom) and wine and some weird drink my auntie made that no one touched but her! it started off very therapeutic and fun but then we all got very drunk and auntie finished off the night by making up a song, as if she was writing her own letter to him...wish I could remember it, I just know it has lots of swearing in it. My cousin wasn't drinking and was a bit worried about her. He's admitted to me he's finding it a bit hard living with her again. He doesn't regret moving, hes less lonely, and more pleased coz also he had been out date with Meg, (really, I wanted the gossip on that from him!) and their are going on another one. This feels a bit weird and I'm not what he'd be like as a bf, but meg seems to really like him and he said very positive things. Anyway gonna go and answer some more posts.

Don't be so modest (nor embarrassed) - most adults, even trained psychiatrists, find it hard to keep a constant handle on LaLa Land mentality and non-reality, let alone comprehend every facet of it. Even Robert Hare himself (Hare's Psychopathy Checklist), when assessing the criminal pathologicals' suitability for parole, still topples off the 'mindset track' from time to time, letting one slip through the net (to freedom and re-offending), much to his intense chagrin. Healthy minds are simply not equipped so it takes a concerted effort and great focus and concentration to resist involuntarily reverting to judging and assessing by the standards of your normals. Also, genius is not necessarily all good/something to brag about, therefore, nothing to *be* embarrassed about admitting. Like anything, it can, if one hasn't managed to harness it, equally be the bane of one's life...a handicap. You just are what you are. Know that nothing you do or say can *hurt* your dad. They don't have the normal range of emotions (google proto-emotions) It can only, anywhere between irritate and enrage (thwartedness). May I be so bold (and say No if you want to) as to ask to see your dud's original response? And better yet - the second? If I could see them, chances are I could tap in to his state and work out what he plans next (and next) and give you forewarning and dodging tips. ***** Yeah, if everything I did was with the intention of pulling the wool and keeping it pulled, I imagine I 'wouldn't like' (fear and dread) counsellors and super-empaths too, LOL. It's another classic hallmark. BTW - I LOL-ed because I had the exact same retort ("ah, well, you won't like me, then!") spring to mind as I read that bit. As for your mum: excellent. I knew she would. And a huge tip for her: keep ALL communication strictly to custody and divorce matters and in writing(email) and *do not rise to any bait*. Example: Him: ....'so I'll be picking them up at 6pm sharp. And this time can you ensure Little Johnny's socks aren't skew-whiff and causing him huge discomfort and distress like last week when I had to actually stop the car and straighten them for him. Oh, and I should also advise you to cease poisoning the children's minds against me like you're so obviously doing...[blah-blah-lies-and-gross-exaggerations-blah..prod-prod-stab]... because it's highly child-abusive....' Her: [1] I'm sorry, but I'm not going to dignify that insulting accusation with a response; [2] I've checked the schedule and 6pm sharp is fine, thanks. See what stands out (to the Family Court judge...who reads the court file as selectively collected by your solicitor, prior to the financial hearing)? Yup - his steaming turd on his own doorstep (upset mother = incapable mother = upset & incapable kids). Do not rise to any bait and thereby distract the reader's attention with your retort, leave the neon-flashing turd on centre stage where it can reek most keenly and not fail to be missed. You don't even need to bother with point [1], can blank it completely. But I'm aware that no-one is super-human under those highly antagonistic circumstances so just - KISS = Keep It Simple, Stupid. New Mantra (for mum). Log and record *everything*. Keep a daily diary (mum especially) of literally everything he says and does. Saying that, I think she's canny enough to sense this already, by the fact she and auntie didn't give into their motherly urges to give him What For and simply forwarded the mail to her brief. Your mum clearly can still think under-fire (- used to it from classroom-fuls of rowdy kids, no doubt). ***** Mitts off, please, stop 'working on'. Leave Tom to get on with his own adult To Do list, like you've had to. Support, encourage, stand back (ready to catch if they fall) - that's it. Because he's your boyfriend, not your child...don't want to encourage bad habits. Unless he asks... but even then... Asking is a sign of readiness; without readiness, hands-on assistance is frustratingly futile (and effects like a case of Crying Wolf, whereby, they finally reach readiness but by then, you're done/spent already). After all, it's not like he hasn't already been getting to watch, in detail, how it's done, eh. Ones brothers need not be the ones they were born with, they can be the chosen and adopted kind (good friends, promoted). ****** Wish I could hear Auntie's song. Cuz may find her behaviour uncharacteristic and discombobulating (noted), but - again, 'better out than in', it's all good. Possibly won't be long before he joins in. Dating Meg, eh? Keep me posted! :-) ****** (Thank-you again. I was desperate for another, consistent adviser who could talk La-La Land so you really are being the answer to my prayers.)

Lily, would you be willing to play my side-kick on 'Emotionally Distraught...'? Say no if you want to, I won't mind at all. But 'if you don't ask' and all that?

Yep, I've read it :-) what do I have to do?

Yooou smasher! :-) 'What you have to do': Be yourself and do your "thang". I'm the Captain, you're the First Mate. But in my absences, Captain. Feel free to argue with me if you ever disagree with anything (I actually like it) - but here on your thread, never in front of the OP "LABRNR". We're going to instruct/advise/warn, guide, explain, support, administer balm. And just generally be her rocks. Oh, and remind her what an Equal Relationship consists of. Oh, and squish him (squish him gooood). I've announced you. Just come over and say Hi: https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/11186/Emotionally-Distraught-Fiance-Wants-To-Be-A-Father-Which-I-Cant-Give-Him. Simples! :-)

Tsk! Note to self: SLOW THE EFF DOWN. Sorry, she hasn't actually given her agreement yet. Plus I have to finish my latest response. But I can't see any reason why she'd say no so.... I'll knock again the minute she has or you can see she has. Hang tight for now...

Okay, Lils, she's given her consent. You can either pop on and say Hi and have a prelim chat to give your own observations and feedback or just basically say "Hi and Condolences" and add that you'll wait for me to respond to her latest post before you do so - it's up to you entirely, I don't mind which. For example, I haven't yet explained in any detail, about how ending it as soon as practicable works out far better 'for the kids' welfare and own future relationships due to not soaking up enough of his bad father-figure/relationship role modelling, etc. So you could input that part (not least because you yourself are a walking exemplar) and include how you remember feeling at around 12 when you knew dud wasn't right but couldn't put your finger on why. Put anything you like; you've already proven your capabilities. :-)

BTW, Lils, just to say, this is not my way of ending your own thread. We'll carry on as usual, meanwhile, whenever you've anything to report or need help regaining your equilibrium, yes? :-)

I will do, am finding other post really interesting tho. I've just moved to uni halls (it feels very weird) and my laptop has had a melt down, not letting me do anything, so I can't get my dads email, but can remember most of it, wasn't that long and I've read it quite a few times! He basically said sis was exaggerating about the evening on hol, she took it all the wrong way and we all know she's capable of getting hysterical from time to time. He's very disappointed with Tom, he approached him a few times on holiday, 'out of genuine concern' for me and sis, and Tom was very aggressive towards him each time, and he hopes he's not like that with me? He thinks I should ask him about this. (As for me!) He's deeply hurt that I think we don't have a relationship anymore, and clearly he's an irritant (yes) and doesn't want to be a burden to me anymore, so he will leave me alone. But I'm not ask anything of him again financially or emotionally. Then he said he thinks bro and sis will come round and start talking to him. He ended it with 'good bye lily'. Then, on Friday he sent two massive parcels by post, full of stuff he thought I might need for uni (duvet, duvet covers, pillows, sheets, fluffy throw etc). He also shoved in a b'day present too ...He didn't take the prices off anything either. There was a card too saying, 'thought you might needs all of this for uni, let me know if you need anything else, love dad xxxxxx' (ew, he never puts 'love' or kisses in any cards, emails or texts) . It also looks like he got his gf or someone to help choose some of the stuff, coz it's not stuff he would think to choose and it all matches and actually quite nice. Think the best thing to sent it all back to him (?) coz I don't want to accept any of it. Ok, Mitts are off Tom, I understand what your saying. Tom's oldest bro has recommended a door bell with a camera, so if my dad turn up at the house it will record him being there and the one he suggested records the first few minutes of a conversation, if there is one. my mum bought this straight away and she's making keep notes on everything. Yeah wouldn't of put cuz and meg together,she didn't know he was my cousin we were out in a group, think meg thought he was one of Tom's and she was like 'oooo he's nice!', Er that's my cousin meg, I quite like the idea now. Im getting the gossip tomorrow from her. She's excited but has questions ...hmm, she's not met auntie yet! she will like her. Auntie also been asking me questions too, she was worried it was Holly, clearly she doesn't think much of her. Noooo Holly would eat cuz alive!

Soulmate, is there anymore advice I could give on thread 'bf has anger issues'? :^)

Wow it work's now!

What does - something on your person? LOL (sorry, in a silly mood tonight) *********** Lils, I'm sure not, but I'll go check it out just as soon as I can.

And then answer your latest - bear with a little....

Oh, I know what you meant, Scopes - your apostrophe! Don't over-use it though, or you'll end up looking a little bit illittuhrut. [gaffaws at own joke and ducks rotten tomato]

Ok so my punctuation isn't correct. [ Tosses another rotten tomato] SPLAT! Gotcha..

Can I have some fries with that?

Comes with onion rings too. Or sweet potato tater tots.

What are tater tots? Toddlers made out of potato? LOL ********************** Lils, It appears the OP is still experiencing Cognitive Dissonance (- go google, but basically "He loves me, he loves me not, he loves me..." - neither half-belief can logically bring whole relief, for obvious Jekyll & Hyde reasons) and needs to be helped undergo a Paradigm Shift ("He definitely hates me; the hate is real, it's the like and love that isn't; at best, is only ever Cupboard Love"). The crux is over her being unaware of the fact that there IS no 'getting better' for a Narcissist. Because of their condition, they're unwilling to see any fault, equals, need to change in the first place, and because of their unwillingness to admit they've a problem, they continue as they are and more and more deeply reinforce their own habits. See if you can find anything on the web which confirms it (e.g. 'Can a Narcissist heal?'). She needs to understand and accept that he's pathological, meaning, will just get worse and worse over time (including his constant excuses and justifications). Or challenge her erroneous (half-) beliefs with questions like (as a loose example): So it's important to you that this Narcissist, whom too often shows you such intense contempt, thinks well of you as he continues treating and speaking to you like you'd only expect a normal male to do had you'd deliberately, gleefully tortured then slaughtered his frail and elderly grandmother or newborn baby? Lead her, all Socrates-like. to the logical conclusions. Because even though she recognises that he's on-on-off treating her DISGUSTINGLY/INHUMANELY, her mind isn't equating that with what it no-brainer belies: utter contempt (funny how that works, eh). Here's her CD laid out: "There is no hope it only gets worse" -v- "I dont want to leave i want things to get better" She's confused (as in, back-forth-back-forth..."Ping Ponging") due to the fact he has moments where he acts more normal (albeit, still not enough to call Nice, note). But these episodes will be because he's lately been non-stop getting his way thus is neutral/unruffled. That, or has sensed her dangerous-to-him disillusionment growing too strong and is laying off for a while or Love-Bombing her back in, so as not to let her Stay/Leave scales tip to Leave. Me, I'm suspecting the reason he's so p*ssed-off at her being between jobs is because whilst she was bringing in an income, he was capable of doing what these needy or non-needy but always greedy parasites do best - somehow secretly saving money and in this and myriad other ways, getting steadily richer by her. E.g. telling her the mortgage is XXX before halving it as her rent contribution amount, when really it's only XX...that sort of thing. Hence the very last thing he wants to have to start doing, is SPEND money on her. To him, that feels like the greatest insult and injustice (never mind how bad and insecure it naturally makes her feel). And/Or you could paste in each of her citations and complaints of his specific misdeeds, in order, and to each and every one, ask her - 'Would YOU ever do/say something like that to the grown person you loved most in the world?', and when she inevitably replies No, ask - Why not? The obvious, only possible response is 'Because I love him [so would never want to hurt him or make him feel bad]' (boom!). Obviously, there's also pointing out (but not yet - guilt overload, she's paralysed enough as it is!) the grave aspect of what that kind of negatively high-octane atmosphere and ruckus does to a very tiny, delicate and sponge-like mind if it shakes her, a much tougher grown-up, to her own core. That poor little baby's being, not just alarmed, but traumatised, each and every time (oh, god, someone shoot the effers, PLEASE!). Another very incisive question is, whether she's ever witnessed him treat and speak to/rage at anybody else the way he does, her (and/or to the same extent if he's Overt and Grandiose). I'm betting not. Is she ready to unplug from the Matricks (as I'm now christening the LaLa Land version)? Not yet, no. Hence the gentle yet challenging, leading questions (Friendly Interrogator). PS: if someone 'realises he's drinking too much', he doesn't tend to just 'mention it' briefly when talking about something else; it would be ALL he were talking about, or at least giving it its own stage, and well before any other chit-chat (duh?). Ultimately, if a Narc goes that hard, and that frequently, that early on in the fauxlationship, it's because he's for whatever (secret, hidden) reason in a hurry to reduce her to a permanent heap on the floor (yes sir, no, sir, please don't say cruel things or hit me, sir). Or it could be his way of forcing a break-up that 'was all her idea, nothing to do with him, he's still God', because she's useless to him now and/or he's got another woman already lined-up (one with an income). Does any of that help? But, for future reference, if you feel you can't get through to someone then it's usually because they're not ripe enough to be plucked from the Narc bush (sh*tty limits) (lol - see what I did there?), in which case, just resort to providing a handful of article and YouTube links.

...Like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Sk44B4ubg

And this following article - and it's author, Annie Kaszina - is (where and to whom applicable) a cracker! ___________________________________________________________________________ Have you ever had a problem with loyalty? Or, more correctly, have you ever had a problem with other people who have a problem with loyalty? I am guessing that you have. Maybe that problem still shows up in your life. It is just not possible to go through an emotionally abusive relationship without acquiring loyalty issues. In reality both partners in an emotionally abusive relationship have a problem with loyalty. But let’s start with you. You, at least, are on the side of the angels. You believe in loyalty. In fact, you are loyal to a fault. I have yet to meet a single survivor of an emotionally abusive relationship who was NOT loyal to a fault. Loyal to a fault A person really can be loyal “to a fault” - when they are loyal to someone undeserving of their loyalty. And who could possibly be more undeserving of your loyalty than a narcissistic, abusive partner? (Or a narcissistic, abusive friend? Or else a narcissistic abusive family member?) But maybe we should start by defining loyalty. Google obligingly suggests these two definitions, “support” and “allegiance”. They could make you think… In my own case, my parents took no chances. Rather, they started with their end in mind and instilled the concept of loyalty – loyalty from me to them – into me, from as soon as they could guilt-trip me. (That, as I recall, was very early on.) Interestingly enough, however – like the good narcissistic parents they were – they did not instil sibling loyalty into their offspring. That was surplus to requirement. Nevertheless, they did a damned good job. I had this strong sense that loyalty (to both parents and siblings) had to be a good thing. Selective loyalty With the benefit of decades worth of experience, I can say with confidence, that my siblings have always practised selective loyalty. I was not on their Select List. Instead, I spent quite a lot of my youth on the Invisible List. However, once I started to show signs of independence, I swiftly transitioned to the Scapegoat List. That was how it worked in my family. Empaths seem to make a habit of selflessly giving the thing they most want to received. We give both because we cannot help ourselves and because we feel that we have to earn the loyalty of others – especially our loved ones, our –questionably – “nearest and dearest”. That seems to me where the predicament that we empaths with abusive loved ones struggle with. The abusive view of loyalty Our abusive, narcissistic “nearest and dearest”, on the other hand, come to the problem of loyalty from a very different starting place. Abusive loved ones see the point of loyalty. In fact, they insist on loyalty – from you. Your loyalty serves them. It suits them to have a nice, secure place where they can relax, don their lovely , comfy abuse slippers, and be as vile as they feel like. The loyal partner (or family drama) offers them with that oasis of drama, unreasonable demands and disdain that makes them feel deliciously powerful. (And toxically alive!) Of course, their abusive behaviors feel like hell to you. But does that matter to them? You know that it doesn’t. They demand unconditional loyalty from you, without ever reciprocating. Because, for abusers and Narcissists, loyalty is ever going to be a one way street. Loyalty is what they demand, not what they give. Abusers and Narcissists are, by definition, not loyal. The consistency of abusers and Narcissists Recently, someone suggested to me that they are loyal to themselves. In reality, I don’t believe that is true. Most of the time, narcissistic abusers do not display a great deal of consistency. However, they sure as hell are consistent in imposing their One-Rule-For-You-&-Another-For-Me regime on their loving ones. Still, what governs these toxic creatures insistence on loyalty is, I believe, a ravening hunger for gratification. Narcissists and abusers have an insatiable need for gratification. Your loyalty is meant to ensure that they get their gratification – with no strings attached. That is why they will stay with you as long as they do, despite clearly neither liking nor valuing you. That is, also, why they leave and take up with someone else. They assume that the new person will provide them with a higher level of gratification than you can. What drives them is, I believe, their thoroughly base instinct. Certainly, narcissistic abusers do not have a problem with loyalty. They will do exactly what suits them, when it suits them. Plus, they feel that they owe you nothing. Absolutely nothing. That means nothing whatsoever in emotional, psychological, moral and financial terms. When they are done with you, they would be delighted if you would just climb into the trash can and disappear with the rest of the refuse. Now redefine loyalty That leaves you to address your own problem with loyalty. Loyalty is a great thing – where it is reciprocal. When it is not reciprocal, loyalty becomes a kind of internal, emotional bleeding. You simply cannot afford to let that kind of internal bleeding continue. Especially when your psychological immune system has already been sorely depleted by your association with an abuser. Besides, all this talk of loyalty to others misses the key point. You need to be loyal to yourself. Chances are, you grew up in a home where nobody committed to protecting you and safeguarding you emotionally. Somebody has got to step up to the plate and do that job. You have to be the person best suited to the job. As Hillel the Elder said, over two thousand years ago, "If I am not for myself who is for me? And being for my own self, what am 'I'? And if not now, when?” The problem with loyalty is this, when it is misplaced, it will bring you down. You cannot make another person be loyal to you, no matter how loyal they should be. Your job, now, is to redefine what you understand by loyalty. You have a duty to be loyal to yourself, to treat yourself with the same care and consideration that you would someone you love. If you struggle to do that for yourself, then you need help getting over that block. Unless you want someone else to come along and exploit your loyalty. ( http://recoverfromemotionalabuse.com/2018/06/06/what-love-really-means-to-the-narcissist-or-abuser/)

Yep that helped thanks!

De nada, Senorina!

Scopesie, how's the self-build going? And how's it hanging, generally? ******** PS Lils - forgot to say: Some sites state that some Narcs *can* change - given extreme enough deterrent/incentive. HOWEVER, all that results is the Narc commences sitting on his hands, meaning, after a while, starts sinning with his feet instead, usually under the table. Even if he doesn't, even if he somehow manages to curb his uncontrollable/gratuitous urges, doesn't alter the fact - YOU'RE STILL DATING OR MARRIED TO A GIANT ARSEHOLE. "When I gwow up, I wanna mawwy an arsthe'ole an' live unhappiwy ever aftah". Not.

Just spotted your last personal post, which got a bit lost in the melee, so am bringing it forward for tomorrow (soz): ____________________________________________________________________________________ I will do, am finding other post really interesting tho. I've just moved to uni halls (it feels very weird) and my laptop has had a melt down, not letting me do anything, so I can't get my dads email, but can remember most of it, wasn't that long and I've read it quite a few times! He basically said sis was exaggerating about the evening on hol, she took it all the wrong way and we all know she's capable of getting hysterical from time to time. He's very disappointed with Tom, he approached him a few times on holiday, 'out of genuine concern' for me and sis, and Tom was very aggressive towards him each time, and he hopes he's not like that with me? He thinks I should ask him about this. (As for me!) He's deeply hurt that I think we don't have a relationship anymore, and clearly he's an irritant (yes) and doesn't want to be a burden to me anymore, so he will leave me alone. But I'm not ask anything of him again financially or emotionally. Then he said he thinks bro and sis will come round and start talking to him. He ended it with 'good bye lily'. Then, on Friday he sent two massive parcels by post, full of stuff he thought I might need for uni (duvet, duvet covers, pillows, sheets, fluffy throw etc). He also shoved in a b'day present too ...He didn't take the prices off anything either. There was a card too saying, 'thought you might needs all of this for uni, let me know if you need anything else, love dad xxxxxx' (ew, he never puts 'love' or kisses in any cards, emails or texts) . It also looks like he got his gf or someone to help choose some of the stuff, coz it's not stuff he would think to choose and it all matches and actually quite nice. Think the best thing to sent it all back to him (?) coz I don't want to accept any of it. Ok, Mitts are off Tom, I understand what your saying. Tom's oldest bro has recommended a door bell with a camera, so if my dad turn up at the house it will record him being there and the one he suggested records the first few minutes of a conversation, if there is one. my mum bought this straight away and she's making keep notes on everything. Yeah wouldn't of put cuz and meg together,she didn't know he was my cousin we were out in a group, think meg thought he was one of Tom's and she was like 'oooo he's nice!', Er that's my cousin meg, I quite like the idea now. Im getting the gossip tomorrow from her. She's excited but has questions ...hmm, she's not met auntie yet! she will like her. Auntie also been asking me questions too, she was worried it was Holly, clearly she doesn't think much of her. Noooo Holly would eat cuz alive!

Got some things to add on the end of last post. Sorry if it's confusing, I just need to get it out. I think I'm sliding back a bit like you said might happen. I m outing it down to all the change. I feel homesick...if you can be homesick after a week and I've been quite anxious too. I don't like living in uni halls (yep, I know, I've only given it a week) and I'm really not making effort to make friends either. I'm being like bro, and just kept myself to myself whilst everyone one else is going out clubbing (ugh) and getting drunk. I know I'm not helping myself, going to try and make more of an effort this week. I didn't get to go home this weekend. My mum was taking sibs out because she got phone calls' from two of bros teachers in one week saying they are really impressed with how hard he's working and new his mature attitude has been noticed. sis doing really well getting and high grades too. So I wanted sibs to have some time with my mum but I've missed them sooo much, I want this week to be over quickly so I can go home. I've also been quite angry/sad about my dad too. Tom is being 'Mr Non Existent' again, it's not really surprising anymore and I know I've mentioned this a few times but it really got to me this time. It was our two year anniversary and I called him, think he forgot, he didn't sound bothered and all I could hear was Gobby (girl from his uni, who I was worried about before, my nickname for her) shouting in the background. I can't describe how annoying actually she is. Gobby is also living in the same house share coz 'no one else would live with her' (can't think why) so Tom and his two other house mates felt sorry for her...He knows I'm p*ssed off, but he hasn't bothered to call and I've been doubting things since. Meg was asking about us last week and I was just like 'I don't really know anymore'. Then Yesterday his oldest bro came to pick up my lap top to take it away to fix it, he's nice like that :-), he wasn't going to stay long but for some unknown reason I saw him and started crying??? (Not embarressing at all!!! ) he was really sweet and took me out for a drink and stayed for a good few hours. He's not going to say anything to tom, he's not impressed either, its obviously up to me but we've had this discussion a few times. Moan over.

Hey-hey - chin up! "This too shall pass". "am finding other post really interesting tho." Thought you might. Because there'll be a lot you can 'pick out' and relate personally to. On the one hand, it helps you to express yourself, but on the other, it's bound to leave you with a reaction (which doesn't feel nice for a bit). Added to which, your mind's emotional processing in-tray now has a load of NEW sheets to process (which feels even less nice for a bit): "I've just moved to uni halls (it feels very weird) and my laptop has had a melt down, not letting me do anything," There's your great excuse to get to know the other deeper thinkers who likewise aren't that 'sociable without a cause'. Start knocking door-to-door amongst your halls neighbours to see who's techy-whizz enough to sort your computer out for you (I expect whomever it is will feel very grateful for the opportunity to come out of their own shell). "so I can't get my dads email, but can remember most of it, wasn't that long and I've read it quite a few times!" I imagine you have, yes. "He basically said sis was exaggerating about the evening on hol," *He* wishes. "she took it all the wrong way and we all know she's capable of getting hysterical from time to time." He wishes; he wishes; and - we wonder why. Bet she's going to become less 'hysterical', the longer she spends away from him, eh Lils. "He's very disappointed with Tom, he approached him a few times on holiday, 'out of genuine concern' for me and sis," Concern over what? "and Tom was very aggressive towards him each time, and he hopes he's not like that with me? He thinks I should ask him about this." What a pathetic attempt to engage you and manipulate you into a sense of needing him. 'Tell him' you think his girlfriend is a giant manipulator and user and you hope she's not like that with him, and you think he should ask her about this. "(As for me!) He's deeply hurt that I think we don't have a relationship anymore," There's no 'think' about it. Again, he destroyed it. So it needs to be rebuilt. End of. (He's not doing very well so far, is he.) Negativity, negativity, negativity... Again, he should try being NICE and POSITIVE. What is that - rocket science? "and clearly he's an irritant (yes)" (He's irritating me and I don't even have to 'live with him'.) "and doesn't want to be a burden to me anymore," Bar filling your ears with his threat dressed up as violin music, of course. "so he will leave me alone. But I'm not [to] ask anything of him again financially or emotionally." Isn't this the guy that used you during your homework time as slave labour? As for emotionally: HA-HA - WHAT!? Yes, Lily, don't ever again ask him for a punch in the guts - do you hear? ;-P "Then he said he thinks bro and sis will come round and start talking to him." GOOD FOR THEM! No, they won't. But nice try at triangulation and trying to stir up sibling competition. "He ended it with 'good bye lily'." Good-bye Rhett Butler. LOL "Then, on Friday he sent two massive parcels by post," Ya don't say. Again, it's because you didn't react like he'd hoped you would. (Bash!, lick, Bash!, lick...) "full of stuff he thought I might need for uni" Ooh, was there a healthy, genuine father in there? No? Aw, shame. PS: How queer he left it so late (not). "(duvet, duvet covers, pillows, sheets, fluffy throw etc). He also shoved in a b'day present too ...He didn't take the prices off anything either." Did he include a calculator, though? You know - to save you totting it all up in your head *before feeling obligated and guilty*? "There was a card too saying, 'thought you might needs all of this for uni, let me know if you need anything else, love dad xxxxxx' (ew, he never puts 'love' or kisses in any cards, emails or texts)." That's a massive lick-lick, then? "It also looks like he got his gf or someone to help choose some of the stuff, coz it's not stuff he would think to choose and it all matches and actually quite nice." Yeah - what were the chances. Well, we know it wasn't your mum, don't we. "Think the best thing to sent it all back to him (?) coz I don't want to accept any of it." No, no - THAT'S A REACTION - A TEMPERATURE READING. You don't do that. You keep it and fail to react, bar (if you like/if opportunity forces) saying, 'Yes, it's nice, thank-you very much (, Vicar)'. That's a response, not a reaction. He owes you, anyway. Least he can do. (In fact, were it me, I'd have said, 'Is that my back-wages?') It's only '£10' though, it's not going to reverse and cancel out his £10,000 overdraft in your love bank, is it; it's just a start. So you don't have to act like it does. He wants that deficit reversed? He'll have to keep it up (and obviously I'm not talking just throwing money at you). And up and up and up (which means, no manipulation attached) - until ONE DAY, you decide he's more like the dad you always deserved. Coo - rocket-science! You can tell him that - the Love Bank overdraft bit - if you like? After all, if he is a permanent a-hole, at least you've got him curbing the proof of it (- how he'd otherwise dare behave around you). And in that bad circumstance, that'd be all you could reasonably achieve - but WHAT an achievement! (The others will note and copy.) In other words, Lily, from now on he's as good as his last sale. But that deficit is not going to be wiped as instantly and easily as Mr Emotionally Lazy would like. It's always the thought that counts, not what one merely pretends the thought behind it is. *********** "Ok, Mitts are off Tom, I understand what your saying. Tom's oldest bro has recommended a door bell with a camera, so if my dad turn up at the house it will record him being there and the one he suggested records the first few minutes of a conversation, if there is one. my mum bought this straight away and she's making keep notes on everything." Excellent. Well done Tom's bro - and mum! "Yeah wouldn't of put cuz and meg together,she didn't know he was my cousin we were out in a group, think meg thought he was one of Tom's and she was like 'oooo he's nice!', Er that's my cousin meg, I quite like the idea now. Im getting the gossip tomorrow from her. She's excited but has questions ...hmm, she's not met auntie yet! she will like her. Auntie also been asking me questions too, she was worried it was Holly, clearly she doesn't think much of her. Noooo Holly would eat cuz alive!" Instant dating foursome! :-) Now onto your next...

"Got some things to add on the end of last post. Sorry if it's confusing, I just need to get it out. I think I'm sliding back a bit like you said might happen. I m outing it down to all the change. I feel homesick...if you can be homesick after a week and I've been quite anxious too. I don't like living in uni halls (yep, I know, I've only given it a week) and I'm really not making effort to make friends either. I'm being like bro, and just kept myself to myself whilst everyone one else is going out clubbing (ugh) and getting drunk. I know I'm not helping myself, going to try and make more of an effort this week." I didn't get to go home this weekend. My mum was taking sibs out because she got phone calls' from two of bros teachers in one week saying they are really impressed with how hard he's working and new his mature attitude has been noticed. sis doing really well getting and high grades too. So I wanted sibs to have some time with my mum but I've missed them sooo much, I want this week to be over quickly so I can go home. I've also been quite angry/sad about my dad too. Tom is being 'Mr Non Existent' again, it's not really surprising anymore and I know I've mentioned this a few times but it really got to me this time. It was our two year anniversary and I called him, think he forgot, he didn't sound bothered and all I could hear was Gobby (girl from his uni, who I was worried about before, my nickname for her) shouting in the background. I can't describe how annoying actually she is. Gobby is also living in the same house share coz 'no one else would live with her' (can't think why) so Tom and his two other house mates felt sorry for her...He knows I'm p*ssed off, but he hasn't bothered to call and I've been doubting things since. Meg was asking about us last week and I was just like 'I don't really know anymore'. Then Yesterday his oldest bro came to pick up my lap top to take it away to fix it, he's nice like that :-), he wasn't going to stay long but for some unknown reason I saw him and started crying??? (Not embarressing at all!!! ) he was really sweet and took me out for a drink and stayed for a good few hours. He's not going to say anything to tom, he's not impressed either, its obviously up to me but we've had this discussion a few times. Moan over." *************************************************************** No, it's not confusing. And moan as much as you like - you've earned it and it's your right, all things considered your entire childhood. Have another one if you like? Type page after page of moans? Better out than in. Yes, the change is definitely what it is. So so many new emotional data sheets. Your filing-tray was over-full already. And don't worry, you just need to adapt, and that takes time. If you never adapt - LEAVE. It's not like you can't, what with a source of income already set-up in that biz of yours, is it. And trust me on this - you are not by any means the only one. The party-goers - a lot of them will be doing it - frantically - to keep their minds constantly distracted from the culture shock of it all. They'll 'come down' once the Freshers fortnight finishes and the routine sets in. You're getting a head-start. But you're not stuck there like they are. (Realistically, they aren't, either, but you even less so.) Again, just keep searching around under whatever pretexts (the dicky laptop is perfect!) for your Like. They're there. Sat in there rooms in the throes of despair and feeling like they're the only square peg in the round village, I imagine? Go on - surprise and delight them! Hide & Seek - "found you!". :-) All you have to do is catch their eye, smile and say 'Hi - are you at a loose end as well'? Or just the Hi bit (and let them have to the harder next bit LOL). Might be an idea to read a book or type on your laptop in the communal sitting-room, though? Let them spot and come to you as well? Sit there just Being You. Any equally lost Likes will find that MOST attractive and make a bee-line. Might have to do it a number of times? Might not. At least you get in a bit of People-Watching. Saying that, if ever, during a time like this with such a full intray, you feel not only miserable (angsted, actually) but like you can't be arsed - don't fight it too much because it might well be that your sensible side is trying to protect that tray from any additional sheets by pinning you to the spot to make you keep thinking and feeling bad until - poof! - you come out of the misery tunnel and suddenly feel better and like emerging to where life is. It's just the sensation of overload, horrid and unnerving though it is. No way is it going to carry on forever like that. But with that the case - don't add Struggling to the mix. Struggling creates a horrid sensation as well. Know that and don't be worried about it or else you're adding being miz about being miz to your miz. Capiche? Go with it, just let the process run its course, and do nothing but your half (Nature & Fate does the other). So if you feel like sitting in the communal living-room or kitchen at any point - do it. If you really don't - don't; wait until you do...just grab every little window and meantime find something gently engrossing, like an amazing book. In the meantime, I expect your mother feels the same underneath her current busyness. Are you ringing her a lot? Even if all you've to talk about is mundane stuff, like what she's been watching on telly? The safe and familiar contact is the important bit. Also, take loads of long, hot baths if you can. With your mind fooled that you're back in the ultra-safe womb, your emotions will go sleepybyes and stop interfering with your intray load and adding negative sensation. Are you intending to pop home every weekend? That will help too because it'll allow you to adapt to living away in baby steps. It's just too much, you see, on top of everything else. You'll get through it - because you're a hard and fast worker - but, no, it does NOT feel nice at the time. Does a very good impression of depression and despair, in fact. That's grieving for ya!.... the basst'd. Plus you've got us lot on here to talk to or grab a steadying hold of - right? :-) Really, though, you should be feeling a LOT worse and coping a LOT less well than you are. So there's a sign if ever there was one, that you'll come out of this quicker than average and be just fine! :-) ...until the next wave. But the next wave and the next will be less overwhelming each time. Or you might get two weeks off - don't know, depends on your tray and your biorhythms, etc. Plus you'll soon have your study work, meaning, processing will be done more in the background where you can't really feel it, if at all (- see what the party-goers are up to now and why unis organise these Distractions & Cushioning Fortnights as they should more honestly be called?). Everyone feels strange, and are either sitting with it but disliking it, like you, or ignoring it by keeping busy, hoping it'll go away. Berbom, you're normal. Just more in-touch and honest with yourself than the average. But anyone who ISN'T feeling weird is either a fibber or an android, trust me on that. ************************** Oh Lils, I'm so sorry Tom is adding to your woes. :-( How does he know you're pissed-off - what exactly did you say? And you and Meg in regular phone contact? Oh! Just read the bit about older bro fixing your laptop! (You'll just have to sit in the communal area with a great book then.) But - really? Tom's brother made the special effort to drive all the way over to do you a massive favour? And then took you out for a drink? For hours? You thinking what I'm thinking? PS: It's only embarrassing to burst into tears if there's nothing going on that would make anyone feel like crying. Tsk. Ya Twazzock. ;-) He obviously understood. Who wouldn't?

Oh, and by the way - no he and uni mate did *not* feel sorry for her. They felt sorry for themselves as well but first and foremost. Safety in numbers, innit. Tom - and no doubt his friend - isn't Mr Bog Standard, either, meaning, needed another member to appear as a crowd rather than a couple of 'acquired taste' wallflowers. From the way Tom was acting towards you when he first went off to uni - I'm suspecting there's a little bit of latent resentment at that period coming out as well, as in, have a taste of your own medicine, Lily, see how you like it. Maybe not consciously. But he's definitely an acter-outer at times, remember? Well, this is not how you (- him) deal with it so - just ignore him now. I know how extra hard that is at a time like this but - look at it this way: at least you're having to grit your teeth over the entire basketful rather than dragging it out for months and months via different-timed handfuls. Don't know about you, but I'd rather have 5 fillings all at once than one per every 2 months... Just the ONE oral injection and days-long jaw-ache, thanks, Bartender. It's all good. But BOY is it misery-making at the time! What am I telling you for? LOL

Have another moan and this time keep going. Think of it as having a desperately needed poo. I mean, it IS extreta, after all - no bull. Just the brain version. You know what would happen if you avoided ever pooing, don't you? CONSTIPATION (and nightmare tummy cramps that do an excellent impression of diarrhoea). Not to mention looking 6 months pregnant. And equally, what would happen if every time you were doing a poo, you kept stopping and getting up halfway through. Now you're constipated *and* (sorry, really sorry!!!) 'touching cloth'. Let's not be coy about this mere bodily process, psych version. It is what it is. POO needing to be excreted. Things are going to be calmer at my end for a while so - the floor is yours, modom. :-) Or, the bathroom?

Where are you, Lils - you alright?

I'm just replying :-). Ek, I was going to send all the stuff back to my dad but I ran out of time before going to uni and didn't get a chance phew! I'm pleased I didn't now, I'd be worrying about that too and his reaction. Dunno what my dad meant, I think he knew something wasn't right because I was quite distant with him on hol and the conversations we had weren't great so he could probably tell something was wrong. I have been talking to my mum quite a in the last week, that was more to do with Tom more then anything. And sibs too. I am planning to go home most weekends. Well, Tom's bro is the only IT person I know, and he's always offered to look at any laptop or computer if they break (didn't think to ask anyone here, duh, that was a good excuse! ). I was hoping it was something small that could be fixed over the phone but no. He was visiting parents and apparently it was on his way home. Er, yea, he stayed for a while. I made friends with a girl who lives oppersite me :-). She's similar to me, she admitted to me that she spent the first week hiding in a cafe all day, every day. Quite interesting how different people deal with change. I was wondering why I hadn't meet anyone who lives corridor bit as me. Today I made myself go and sit communal room with books and a few people came and sat and talked. Beginning to feel a little bit more confident. It might of been a reaction to him telling me Gobby had moved in beforehand because the conversation kinda went downhill from there..., but still, I told Tom I was p*ssed off with him and that it feels like he can't be bothered anymore(...and, by the way, happy anniversary to you too). Gobby could see he was on the phone and she was asking him questions really loudly, felt like it was intentional and he was doing nothing about it, didn't tell her to shut up (politely) or walk away so I just ended the call. I got a missed call from him last night, I didn't avoid it, just didn't have my phone on me. I don't really know what to say to him at the moment. I don't want to break up with him, there are lots of really good things about him but I hate the no contact and this time the doubt. He doesn't seem to get it and it would of been really nice to talk to him about starting uni and just getting some reassurance from him. I'm quite good friends with one of his housemates gf and she sent me a text saying 'WTF to Gobby moving in?'. I'm pleased it's not just me that's not happy about this. She's quite outspoken and says it like it is, and she confronted all three boys about it and told them they would regret it. I feel more sorry for her coz she goes to the same uni and she has to see and put up with gobby a lot more l do. She summed up Gobby quite well and said she's a huge attention seeker and she's uses people to get what she wants. But also very insecure in that she blows her own trumpet...I agree. Meg goes to the same uni, she's just a year ahead and lives a bit futher away from uni campus but good to have her near by :-).

You sound a bit brighter! Are you? Is it because I unloaded you vis-a-vis whether having to send the stuff back to Adina and Patsy? (- lol, go YouTube Absolutely Fabulous and you'll get the joke). You realise he probably *will* start throwing money at you? Has to. It'll be all the power & control tool he's got if from now on if (no 'if' about it!) you refuse to engage emotionally, either way, over anything (except when his conduct and behaviour is delightfully befitting, of course....ta-daa! - Counter Puppy Training, anyone? ;-)) Well, his playing Daddy Warbucks and (attempting) to use it in place of being a better person, is fine (as I say, he owes you). So enjoy it while you can because by henceforth consistently responding emotionally (positively) only whenever he gives you what you actually NEED, this will be you closing off every single approach avenue apart from Good Conduct Road. Meaning, if he wants access to you, that's the only route there is, Amen. As I say - contrived sanity and pleasantness will do if in time it transpires that he cannot genuinely and willingly improve. Time always tells which it'll be, exclusively and without exception. (Bloody stupid time, ach. 'God' made time just to piss us off, I reckon.) No, if you'd risen to the bait, whether in a way that's positive ("gee thanks gorgeous daddy!") or negative ("take it back, I don't want anything from you!"), you'd have proven he can affect and control you any time he likes. He might well then have used that knowledge, both to [1] feel all cocky and powerful over you again (and you know what that produces, ugh) and [2] use that sense of renewed safety to risk giving you another 'bashing' in whatever way, or even just a giant niggling, not just out of pathological need for revenge but because a quick duff-up is far less work when it comes to re-engaging through confusing you, thereby ensuring he as "the great mystery" were constantly preying on your mind, a very itchy Need To Know (What's Wrong With Him/What Did I Do This Time To Deserve This). ...And to make you do something you don't want to do, of course ("talk to your mum, tell her..."). They don't mind you angry at them and intent on getting your own revenge. Just as long as you're obsessed with them, is the point ("me-me-me, look at me!")...like problem kids when intolerably bored. Or Tweedledum, looking for a Tweedledee. If they're fighting with you and playing mind and machination games with you, they don't have quiet or empty space in which to FEEL HOW MESSED UP AND UNHAPPY AND SELF-LOATHING THEY ARE UNDERNEATH THE SELF AND PUBLIC CON JOB. No-one to do and no-one to engage in a long-drawn-out battle with is anathema to them. So literally think of it as training a puppy, using your new independence and geographical distance as puts you outside of his usual control and gives YOU all the power (after all, you're not the one gagging to see him, are you, despite his own gagging doesn't stem from sentimentality): If he's bad or displeasing by the usual standards of polite family society then bad puppy not only doesn't receive a choccie drop (emotional reaction either way), he gets to see his owner turn her back on him and ignore him (no taking or getting in contact until he apologises and makes it up to you......note the *and* bit because in actual fact an apology is the act of making it up to you whereas the verbal statement is just the signpost to the deed so that you don't miss it). He always made you in a way parent him, when it suited him, if you think about it?, but simultaneously kept up the public pretence of being the adult/superior. This time - no more pretending any more. You're going to be training him as a mother would a child. Not concertedly, as in, going out of your way. Just whenever he approaches. If you want tips and can imagine the toddlers and teens as grown-ups and the kids' issues as more sophisticated adult-like issues - check out Jo Frost, Supernanny on YouTube. :-) Warning: if you're tired (try not to be) or PMT-ish or ill or upset about anyone else - whatever, just not your usual self - make all the excuses under the sun to stay away from him until you're back to full strength. That's when they get you, remember - when you're DOWN. Your brother's method at making Lemonade out of Lemons is to use his giant resentment as his motivation to want to do far better than his dad. That way he doesn't feel like his new-found effort can be mistaken for complying (clever way to self-motivate, eh?). Yours is to get those owed back-wages (how much money did you save him, do you suppose?) while and as you block Evil Dud off at every single pass so that only Nice or Okay Dud exists in your world. It's actually very easy to 'lord it' over a Narc. (Difference is, your re-conditioning and puppeteer-ing is of the acceptably healthy/good for the world variety.) If you think about it - chances are, he's like he is because HE was dominated... think interactional see-saw - his dad/mum/both Up and him always Down. So he's used to being Slave as much as he is Master. Both are comfort zones. It's the MIDDLE ground - Equality - that they hate and can't/won't do. So as long as you do the 'training' consistently and never quit, there will - even for a pretty relentless Narc - come a point when he gives up and makes himself your 'Slave'. Do you think you could try this?...take advantage of this superb, current set-up? If so - again, you talk to him and respond (not react) to whatever he does or says as you would your local vicar. Polite, warm-ish seeming, but cooling that right down via formality of address. Result: cool...distant. Whenever he behaves nicely around you, you still talk to him as if you don't know him that well but add formal warmth. For example - he puts a coin in a collection tin or tramp's hat. You care not that it's just to impress you or soften you up, rather than out of genuine concern for the beneficiary, because the whole point is it is still a productive act with healthy consequence and that's all we care about. So you turn to him and smile, whilst saying, 'THAT was really nice of you? :-)'. And then feed the ego the full choccie drop by going on a bit about how kind he can sometimes and how impressive it is *or* let him get his way over something unimportant (but as if it's a big-ish deal). As positive attention is all that's on offer, but which has to be earned...well, choccie drops iz choccie drops to an "attention Pacman". And you extend this in regards to anything nice he does for anyone else that you get to hear about, as well. Ditto for withdrawing silently and with no explanation for anything unpleasant. ************** Re Tom's bro: Oh has he? Always offered? Oh has he? *You* might think he's the only techie you know but - LOOK AROUND YOU - YOU'RE AT UNI WITH BLOKES, LOTS OF BLOKES, *VERY* INTO GADGETS (AND YOUNG WOMEN WITH AMAZING HAIR) AND SHOWING OFF THEIR EXPERTISE. Tom's bro would know that, on some level. Give it up - I've got you cornered! :-D You know I have, though, don't you, because: "I was hoping it was something small that could be fixed over the phone but no. He was visiting parents and apparently it was on his way home. Er, yea, he stayed for a while." Er, yea. LOL That's right - HE INSISTED. That's what happens when we're stuck feeling sorry for ourselves. We miss stuff. Not that there's anything wrong with feeling sorry for yourself (proves you're human and functional). It just means we miss stuff. Granted, it might just be that he really, really likes you in a 'wish you were my sister' way. But here's the problemo: You're *not* his sister and you've hair like Rapunzel and Tom's already given you a super-high recommendation via his long running dating of you. So it would only be a matter of time. You need do nothing very much, I'm sure he'll keep in touch and check up on you or await and pounce on your next mercy call. But Tom will get wind of it. Somehow. Without doing anything, you could end up 'seeing his Gobby Friend £5 and raising him your Sophisticated Friend and Taboo-type Rival' (*owned*). Listen, normally I wouldn't recommend this sort of petty game-playing BUT - Tom, he of Narcissistic Teen Phase as gets slid back into any time he's miz/insecure/agitated - started it and isn't really giving much option. It's that or go quiet. In fact, that would be the cherry on the top because, getting to know of his brother's visit (guaranteed), he'd feel he had no option but to ask his brother what he thinks is up with you. Brother would slip up somehow. After all, he was naughty already. Because he took his brother's girlfriend FOR A DRINK. Which is overstepping the mark. Innit. (Guilt-guilt-guilt, blurt-oops, sh*t.) You see, an older brother who just liked you and *didn't* secretly like you *a lot*, would have done this: You: Ah-haah-ah-haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! (*sniffle, parp-parp*)..... Him: (Ugh - girlie tears!!!!) Uh...you'll be alright (*pat-pat on the arm*), but, er, listen, er - gotta go, so sorry!... I'll, er, get Tom to call ya, yeh?! Fate really does seem to be laying on a banquet for you lately, doesn't it? Oh. Hadn't you noticed? (You smiling again yet?) Those aren't the best methods, though. The very best - the Acme - is, you pretending there's still something up - something *intermittent* ("I don't know, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't") - with your lappie and doing a 'door to door' in order to (and do say it in this vein -) find out who's the best techie whizz in 'dorm town'....and then naturally chat away as they spend hours determinedly ("I will not be beaten, I am techie Superman!") trying to find out what the problem is (isn't, LOL).....and then accept the ensuing suggestion to hang out. And then you'll mind less or, even better, forget to remember Tom...but he, meanwhile, will notice why you're suddenly so absent ("uh-oh?")... So this way you get Tom's attention as a side-bonus to the main deal of making new friends and finally having fun. And same rewarding result for the person who clearly was available and at a loose end enough to help. :-) Win/win. Two birds with one stone (and the stone isn't even the type can hurt anyone). That's always the best option when someone who shouldn't be ignoring you or letting/making you feel threatened, *does*. Wander off and play by yourself or others. Boom. Bad Behaviourist gets Bad Consequence (no Lilyliciousness). Lily gets to disconnect some in case they make a habit of it and she needs to dump (doubt it, but the attitude is the magic potion point). ********* Oh ffs. LOL. There's me going on and on and then, suddenly I remember to read on and... "I made friends with a girl who lives oppersite me :-). She's similar to me, she admitted to me that she spent the first week hiding in a cafe all day, every day. Quite interesting how different people deal with change. I was wondering why I hadn't meet anyone who lives corridor bit as me." Oh well, you can still do the lappie ruse. That way you and this gal can start a 'gang'. Well done, btw. :-) And - "Quite interesting how different people deal with change." Izznit, tho. Like Tom. (click-whirr-PING!!!..."Hhhhhh! - other NEW blokes, PROBABLY WAY MORE GORGEOUS THAN ME, AAARGH!!!, SHE'LL DUMP ME FOR SOMEONE ELSE, WHAT TO DO, WHAT TO DO...!") That as well as the latent resentment bit. Equals big enough urge equals sh*tty action. He lets Gobby be gobby because she's his tool or willing accomplice (one'a the lads...gotta pay that toll fee or you, girlie, ain't comin' in). (Had you thought of this one, too, by any chance? No? In that case - 10p please. :-)) You forgot: if Tom's treating you badly it's because Double O Tom's feeling insecure - so Teen-Narc Tom comes back out again, to the rescue (not). And Teen-Narc Tom (because it ain't "manly") is loath to just SAY SO to your face. Because - who wants to feel Vulnerable to the power of 10 when they already feel Vulnerable to the power of 5? Answer: a bloke who's been raised to repeatedly believe that being vulnerable ain't manly (add increasing Testosterone and - kerboom - idiotville). So he acts out instead..."says" it silently, but in a way that you can misinterpret whereby he passes HIS insecurity TO YOU and YOU take action. That's what Scared Tom does. Please write this in indelible ink, backwards on your forehead, young lady. Although - seriously: why don't you write it down somewhere, to consult next time? "I got a missed call from him last night," Hurrah! "I didn't avoid it, just didn't have my phone on me." Hurrah! "I don't really know what to say to him at the moment." Hurrah! "I don't want to break up with him, there are lots of really good things about him" (Won't have to - and yes, I know and yes it's true) "but I hate the no contact and this time the doubt." As does he, hence (as explained above) why he puts it on you instead. "He doesn't seem to get it" You now know - yes he does. "and it would of been really nice to talk to him about starting uni and just getting some reassurance from him." How is Mr Uber-Panicky & Dready supposed to perform like Mr Chilled? Could you? Answer: nope. You will next time, though. You'll say on the phone, 'Okaaaay... clearly something's up but you don't want to confide in me so... I'm not really interested in playing games and being made to feel unimportant - because I know I am...Suggest you phone me when you're prepared to be a bit more like the bloke I know, who treats me right, so I'm gonna go now, bye, laters, twat-face'. (The twat-face bit should probably be said inside your head, LOL) PS: He let Gobby actually move in. Despite she's very gobby. Threat to the Power of 10 as a remedy to Panic/Desperation to the Power of 10. Just to add, however... Really, Tom needs to deal with his senses of threat more bravely and maturely by now. If he fails to, you'll grow bored of him - whether you want to or not - and find yourself becoming drawn either to 'partying it up' as a singleton or to someone else. See how his fears are in danger of creating a self-fulfilling negative prophesy for himself? I think that's what your friend was trying to tell him (them). However, a friend sounding-off isn't nearly as impressive as doing Queen Victoria: "I am not amused so I am taking myself away from you, thank-you very much you are dismissed [ugh, what a disgusting peasant]. In other words, not tears and protests, just UGH/YAWN - UNIMPRESSED. (Scuse repetition but you need it, LOL) PPS: Meg - same uni as who - you or Tom?

"We know someone who's suddenly in high demand with 'her kind' and having the time of her life, don't we, children?" :-D

:-D yeah it's been pretty busy, this is the first night of staying in this week and thats only coz I came home zzzz. Yeah I did miss that with his brother, ah I hope it's in a 'I wish you were my sister' kinda way and yeah there are lots of guys at uni who like fixing computers. My dad has gone quiet for the moment, makes me feel a bit nervous, coz I'm wondering what he's plotting to do next. But being busy helps with not thinking about it. After a talk, Tom was sorry and promised to change and be more contactable which he has been, he's called a few time. He even called me coz Gobby had a go at him for unloading the dishwasher and putting it on after 11 (am) and they had a bit of argument. Slowly regretting allowing her to move in I think. Hope Labrnr comes back and updates! Small update coz I'm so tired zzzzzz.

Interlude https://g.co/kgs/pMUZHZ

Ok I'm a little worried about bro. He's not been himself this weekend and I've (quite happily) spent most of it trying to cheer him up. He's saying he's getting a lot nightmares, my dad is in them and in the day he's remembering a lot of things that happened and what my dad has said to him in the past. He says he's not told my mum or me yet and isn't willing to say yet ...:-/

It sounds like a deep emotional past that he can't seem to shake off Lils. You're doing good by cheering him up and talking to him.

Hey scopes! Yeah it def is harder on him. I understand about the nightmares coz I've had some really weird dreams about my dad myself but they don't effect me the way they seem to be with my bro. I put it down to healing. My mum has asked him before if my dad has ever physically hurt him and he told her no, but I'm not sure if that's the truth or not. He's not opening up. Bro is angry at my mum and me today. He asked if one of us would drive him to my dads house so he can see him, he wants to confront him. My mum told him no and it wasn't a good idea, and he can deal with his anger in other ways. He still wanted to know if I would take him and I backed my mum up told him no. his response was 'fine, I'll find a way to get there myself then'. He kept repeating we are being unfair, he needs this out let and he needs to say things to my dad because one days he's going to anyway so why can't he now? He feels ready. Its school hols and he can quite easily get there himself...I looked up the train route just incase! Ha...and i don't think he's just saying this. it's left me thinking should I take him? rather then him go on his own, like I did with the hol and sis. Even tho that was sis needing to realise what my dads like. Bro knows what he's like more then anyone, and he now wants answers. But I'd want to know what he plans on saying and for him to regonise my dad probably won't answer his questions or be nice. He won't get anywhere. I don't need to go back to uni just yet, so I'm sticking around home for a day or two. He's not going today anyway, his gf is round so I'm hoping she'll work her magic (she's very sensible :-)) and talk him out of it.

Excellente, what a speedy turn-around! You've got to admit, though - it didn't prove half as difficult as you'd thought, did it? ********** "My dad has gone quiet for the moment, makes me feel a bit nervous, coz I'm wondering what he's plotting to do next. " No, this IS his plot, IS his "doing next". Silent Treatment. Doesn't have to be on the back of an actual argument, albeit, in this context it'd count as (Unwarranted) Withdrawal of Affection. Starving you of Duddy-ness. What did you do to acknowledge his furnishing gifts in the end? Do tell me, but I'm guessing your response wasn't what he'd wanted and expected. Hence - now. Alternatively, your response *was* enough for him - or enough for now - or enough simply for him to himself niggling away at your mind (due to the fact his act was confusing and loaded with signs and implications), whether you responded or not. So - whichever - content that Lily The Plate has resumed safely spinning on her pole, he'll have moved to another. Remember, the sociopath can have a *number* of female narcissistic suppliers (ego-feeders) on the go, whether you're ever aware of them or not. They can't be alone, they can't sit still with being "broken up", they have to find another/someone/anyone/warm body/distraction-distraction come main supplier or mini supply sources. Remember, they're living in a fantasy where they're a 'pavement celebrity' or a god. And any person in their life has to act towards them to-suit (take whatever role they want you to play, rather than be your actual self (hence why you're not allowed to be pissed-off with him despite only natural to be)). Don't be nervous, you're prepared and have the power this time. Those scales have tipped because you're fully independent. You've got your own source of income, own life, lifestyle, sources of love and validation and stimulation...everything. He's ceased being compulsory and is now just your choice. If he makes a peep that ordinarily would demand you respond, see how you FEEL. Do you FEEL like responding (because the incoming was perfectly pleasant or harmless)? If not - there'll be a reason, if you can't see it and only sense it, or because you're not yet back to the right frame of mind. You could even say that... something like, 'Be in touch and talk to you another time - got terrible PNT' (- Pre-Narc Tension but he'll assume a typo, lol). Or 'Bogged down with work assignments, contact you next week!'. Remember, normally you're honest and perfectly assertive with the person. But not this case. Normality including honesty doesn't work. So make any excuse you like. His fault for proving he didn't listen to your email (if he had, he would not have been so insensitive as to let it show that some woman had helped, nor left the price tags on.....things you don't ever admit or you've painted another bullseye on yourself for next time). *********** Re Tom's bro: Maybe it is. Maybe he's not close enough to Tom and that horrid middle brother? Or his mother, and needs a wise female in his life? Just seems to have made a gargantuan effort, there, and crossed the boundary line by taking you out on what a stranger COULD call a date. Or a date setting. Teashop would have been more brotherly. Pub if Tom had been either there or aware (can't have if it were spur of moment, can he). Can you see it? Maybe he needs a female friend figure so much he's willing, at a time when he knows or can tell you're feeling neglected by Tom, to let you misconclude that there might be romance or a way to put a firework up Tom's arse in it for you? Time will tell. ************ "After a talk, Tom was sorry and promised to change and be more contactable which he has been, he's called a few time. He even called me coz Gobby had a go at him for unloading the dishwasher and putting it on after 11 (am) and they had a bit of argument. Slowly regretting allowing her to move in I think." Okay, great. And now he has to keep it up, consistently. As will Gobby! LOL...."Oui.....je regrett-e beau-cooooup...............Oui,....passez-moi vite le cord...." :-D Actions? CONSEQUENCES! (Ta-daaa) Next time he'll think before he reeks, won't he. :-) *********** "Ok I'm a little worried about bro. He's not been himself this weekend and I've (quite happily) spent most of it trying to cheer him up. He's saying he's getting a lot nightmares, my dad is in them and in the day he's remembering a lot of things that happened and what my dad has said to him in the past. He says he's not told my mum or me yet and isn't willing to say yet ...:-/" No, that's good! It's banked-up constipation coming out!...out of one of its many exit holes. You don't need to cheer him up, except for afterwards, you just need to support him and feel his emotions with him (provide limbic resonance, it's called; not just having empathy but showing so). He just wants to finish first (he knows he hasn't) and to look in the bowl (to make sure it's not too embarrassing/offensive) before he'll feel comfortable getting you or mum to come look. Capiche? Tell him to get them down on paper, date recorded. Or to buy a little dictaphone to talk into. (He'll find listening back incredibly stabilizing and affirming as he increasingly week-by-week leaves that state behind....which he will, as the poo is coming out... that's the process - one of them.) Who cares if the hurt was physical? Physical/Mental...There is literally no difference between the resultant mental sensation(s), they affect the brain the exact same way. But one, you can see and thereby easily apply a plaster to, so the injury isn't confusing; you *know* you've been injured and where and how to quickly remedy it. But that's the point: his subconscious, when given full rein and reign, is showing him, bit by bit by bit where it hurts and what weapon was used and how deep, etc. So these are 'magic poos'. You do one/three and the result at whatever subsequent point is enlightenment. Is he reading up on what it means to be the son or only son of a narc father? ************ "Hope Labrnr comes back and updates!" *sigh* - I know. Methinks he's succeeded in Hoovering her up again. Typical. (Can take as much as 7 attempts to dump/leave.) Maybe I'll ask her. Or just just keep bumping the thread up to keep it active, ready for When... One thing's for sure: bar some almighty calamity in whatever area of her life, of course - she'd still be posting if she were still of the same mind. But if she's not ready, she's not ready. Nothing you can do about it, it has to be their 50% pulling themselves up, out of the manhole, because all you the rescuer are capable of is 50% and it takes 100% divided equally. Do you now appreciate your own strength, determination, tenacity and powers of endurance, in view of this? You're rare, Lils. That's what I've been constantly trying to tell you.

" He kept repeating we are being unfair, he needs this out let and he needs to say things to my dad because one days he's going to anyway so why can't he now? He feels ready." Because he needs to not be upset, equals, not in Lizard Brain mode (fight/flight) when he does it or he'll do something befitting a Lizard (i.e. stupid and which comes back on him). He's already beating his dad up, anyway. Has been for MONTHS! Being rejected and ignored is anathema to a narc. He won't get any retribution, though. If he said to his dad, 'And why did you X that time, why were you so horrid to me?', his dad would just deny it outright, that it ever happened, or make clever excuses. He's never going to go, 'You're right, son, I was a complete basstd, I'm so sorry'. What? Don't make me laff. If they could do that we wouldn't need this forum!

Brother needs to read up, it's obvious. (Sorry for the separate posts, btw - I'm trying to cook and have to break off to stir.) He'll only concede to needing to read up if you do take him - think about it. However, if bro wants the bumpier route then, fine, take him. OR. Tell him if he still feels the same a week from now, THEN you'll take him. Knee-jerks have no place in the process of emotionally disconnecting from a narc. But maybe he needs to KNOW that it won't get him anywhere, before he can realise that as far as a day in court is concerned, Fate has got the wheel, *it'll* decide. If you don't allow people to rightfully 'get' you, you automatically pass that baton to Fate (uh-oh) and it's bigger and hairier and harder (and passes the correct sentance, every time). Or be clever about it and ask brother: Do you want to go into the boxing ring wearing nothing but sweaty, shaky hands and fluffy-bunny slippers or proper boxing gloves and footwear like a pro?

Put it this way (regarding going into the ring, roused/upset): Where aliens are concerned, you send in Spock. Not bloody Capn Kirk. (He'd probably just fall into bed with the slimy creature, anyway, total sl*t that he was, LOL.)

I did tell bro if he still wanted to go see my dad when I'm next home then I would take him. I don't really want to see my dad but I wouldn't let bro go alone into his house. Bro didn't attempt to go, I had words with him before I went back to uni telling him I really didn't want to have to go away and worry about him and I wanted him to stay in touch with me which he has done. He did call my dad and told him he wanted to see him, but my dad fobbed him off by telling him he's been ill for a few weeks and he also going on holiday soon! Can't be that ill then can he? So I'm hoping bro has changed his mind. bro told me he's written every single thing down he can remember my dad saying or doing and if I want to read it I can, he's not keen on showing it to my mum yet, will be an interesting read! I've been reading too, I'm now reading two book on narcassistic mothers and daughters. Quite happy and relieved to say my mum is not a narc! Can't imagine having two narcs parents or one who enables the others behaviour. my mum read one of them too and now thinks her mum was a narc, an ignoring and neglecting one. I just sent a text to my dad and said thank you for the stuff he sent that was it really. It's all been put in the spare room. So next there are two more birthdays and x mas and I'm guessing he's going to try and attempt to do something on those days. Ah, well, with Tom's bro I found out he's broken up with his gf, and I think we were engaged. Hes bi, he had a boyfriend when I first started going out with Tom. Hes been going home quite a lot so I think that might explain things? Not heard anything more from him so maybe now he thinks it was a bit inapproiate. Tom and older bro get along really well but they don't see much of each other. Tom has been consistent with phone calls but I'm seriously unhappy about something. I went to stay with him and we had a date night, which was really, really nice and we discussed alsorts like going on hol just the two of us next yr . Then other people joined us, which was fine, because we had enough time to ourselves. Gobby was there, and she started crying because she thought Tom 'hated her' since their argument and he's been ignoring her. Not what Tom told me, he apparently tried to make up with her but she ignored him. Anyway they made up, privately, coz she wanted to talk to him alone. then they came back she got really drunk (tom apparently brought her a drink coz he felt sorry for her) and for the rest of the night it was like an 'evening with gobby'. all about her and her life, I paid a little bit of attention on her back ground but otherwise it was boring. Then tom told me last night he's taking her out :-| because they 'need to catch up' ?! They live together, why can't they 'catch up' at home? I did say that to him and he told me I had nothing to worry about. Gobby has him (and his 2 other house mates but mainly him) wrapped around her little finger, anything she wants, they do it. there were a time times, she was bossing all them around and she was just sitting there not lifting a finger. Narc? I think so. Tell me if I'm being over sensitive, I know it's his insecurities again, I have re read what you put last time and I am starting to get bored, I felt like I was getting bored last time and that was his last chance. the jealousy I feel is horrible. I kinda feel like grabbing the next guy I walk past and asking him out and see what reaction I get from Tom when I mention it. We are meant to be going out on a double date with meg and cuz this weekend but at the moment I really don't feel like it and I don't really feel like seeing him!

Be with you tomorrow, Lils! Do feel free to give any update, if you have one, in the meantime.

There is an update which is that things between me and Tom are not good. This weekend has been sh*t, actually, most of last week was. He shouted at me twice, down the phone and then face to face. When we have argued he's never actually properly shouted or sworn at me. First time, he called me back after he told me he and Gobby were going out to 'catch up' and told me he didn't appreciate being dictated to (I didn't) and being made to feel guilty. They are just friends and my jealousy is really starting to p*ss him off. I tried to get him to look at it from my point of view but it was pointless, he just went off on one, saying wtf did I want him to do, move out? And he carried on, swearing and being really sarcastic, I couldn't get a word in. Eventually I managed to tell him I was going to end the call, and did. Was so tempted to call him a tw*tface, but didn't. So I didn't hear from him until Friday, we were meant to be going out with meg and cuz. He managed to ask nicely if we were going I told him no it wasn't a good idea, which he accepted. He wanted to see me on Saturday and since he was being ok, so I agreed. Meg and Cuz still wanted me to go out with them, wether this was right or wrong I don't know, I just thought it was my best friend and cousin so I thought it was ok (according to Tom it wasn't, he was p*ssed off about that too.) and cuz did let me and meg talk about what is going. Saturday, I was unsure about what was going to happen. I went round to his, thankfully his Mum and dad weren't there! He was still in a bad mood. This is really out of character for him, because usually we forgive each other pretty quickly after talking or he'll bounce back and he'll apologise (I do too) then we make things normal again. So I did ask him if there was anything else going on he said no. So I told him I wasn't happy anymore, I told him why, even though he knew and it went down hill from there, where he ended up shouting at me again. I did defend my self more and I left. Clearly he thinks this is ok. I don't know if he's starting to show his true colours Or if my dad was right about him being aggressive. But I don't like it. Then my mum told me no one was home next weekend so be best to stay at uni she said it nicely and gently as she could. At first I thought that was ok because I'd go stay with aunty but she's going with them! I took offence :-/ because they didn't ask me if I wanted to go with them. my mum told me I needed to get used to uni and I don't need to come home every weekend. she then encouraged to go and make up with Tom. Er No. I think she thinks I'm just being stubborn. Now I just feel a bit left out and lost. ********** Labrnr is back, phew!

Hi LILS Sorry to hear that things aren't working out with you and Tom. Perhaps some time away from each other, parting your ways for a bit. Maybe in the uni life you might find new friends.

"I kinda feel like grabbing the next guy I walk past and asking him out and see what reaction I get from Tom when I mention it." Well of course. Same as any infection. They sneeze - pretty soon you're sneezing too. See it? What you're feeling, he felt first. THINK ABOUT IT: he's not 12. He knows it's inappropriate on two counts: [1] that he's taking another single, available woman out and [2] ensuring you watch, completely helpless. He's trying to 'treat you mean to keep you keen'. It's immature and downright sh*tty. But then, desperate is as desperate does. I'm getting bored - and losing respect for him, now, as well, and I'm not even the one dating him. Someone tell him to change the bloody record before we shove it hard up his you-know-what. As for shouting as you? Take Scopesie's advice: withdraw, withdraw, withdraw. You will *not* be treated like that by him or anyone! And why he thinks you would when he's seen you basically paste your father to the walls for the same run of behaviour, I DON'T KNOW. But it does show you how his thinking is very dumbed down of late. And no, you're not being insensitive. A nice woman would keep a respectful distance, let alone try to muscle in on someone's relationship. Whether her ego is getting a rush from having that 'power' or whether she's interested and being duped into believing it's potentially reciprocal, we couldn't quite say at this point but what we can say is: she's his Lena. No, I know you "(didn't"). He said that to minimise his crime by lessened contrast to the one he on-the-spot made up for you. If he's being 'dictated to' then his refusal to do the role-based right thing is suddenly the right reaction. Your jealousy? You mean, the one he deliberately stoked in you? (Ooh, wonder why he did that then, yawn.) Did you see Patrick Melrose, that BBC drama a couple of months back? ...."What *can* drive a man mad [in this scene, you're the man, Lily] is, being forced to have the emotion he's being forbidden to have, *at the same time*. The treachery makes me feel furious - and now I'm being forced to feel pity [you've still got that coming]- well, I'm a simple sort of man and I remain F*-**ING AN-GRY! If you couldn't get a word in as he ranted then that's a very strong impression (as I'm you've recognised) of a Narc Rage. I don't care WHAT Tom is going through inside his head or whether your own personal drama triggered his thus-far repressed reactions to his own at his brother's hands (and whomever else), bringing it to head - that's how life works, 'domino effect' - but the fact remains, you're not his emotional dumping ground nor his sedative/muscle relaxant. Any man who cannot respect a woman, doesn't deserve one. "Was so tempted to call him a tw*tface, but didn't." :-D Good to see you haven't lost your SOH in all this. And well done for having ended the call *and* declined the there-and-then invitation, that's the way to do it - vote with your feet! But did he APOLOGISE, including proposing a remedy, and that's why you said yes to Saturday? "Meg and Cuz still wanted me to go out with them, wether this was right or wrong I don't know, I just thought it was my best friend and cousin so I thought it was ok (according to Tom it wasn't, he was p*ssed off about that too.)" Well, touche; if you [he] can't take it, don't dish it. Action=Consequence (duh). He was still in a mood because you'd socialised as a singleton and because you stuck up for yourself rather than pandered and humbled yourself and sought his re-approval, meaning, the button-pushing campaign hadn't worked...so let's try again/crank it up. I honestly suspect he's not only going through his long-ignored baggage but is ALSO PRACTISING ON YOU, regarding jabs and left hooks, before tackling the actual perp. It's very (veryvery) common. What it shows is [1] they trust you, but [2] take you for granted in terms of believing it won't result in them losing you = trust you too much as to think themselves safe as houses, and show their arse, accordingly. So what he's showing is his true anger and creating a practise boxing session. He likes boxing? Next time, just look him dead in the right eye (his left) and, all deadpan, say, 'I'm not your sh*tty brother'. And keep saying it or any variation of it until he falls limply to the floor. Or bursts into tears. He's earned either. Your mum thinks she's doing you a favour in the long run, forcing you to stay and adapt, which means gritting your teeth through the pain and out the other side. If you're at a loose end on Saturday night, I can be here to chat? You, me (and Scopes?) can get p*ssed as farts and have a laff, take your mind off it all. "Par-tay!" Say the word.

PS: Yes, I saw - I'm just off there now. :-)

Hi, Yep, I do see it now. I knew they did a lot of things together, he's been telling me for the last year since he met her. They go to the same gym, they do food shopping and he gives Gobby lots of lifts coz she doesn't drive, and apparently he also buys her drinks when they go out too. It almost feels like she's a replacement me for when he's at uni. No, he didn't apologise. Now I realise I should of waited for an apology or at least some acknowledgement first before seeing him. Yesterday he called me and told me that it was because he had been to middle bros house in the day on saturday with his mum, and it didn't go well. He had been stressing about it all last week...grrr, this makes me so mad because I bl**dy asked him when I saw him on Saturday, if there anything wrong or anything else that was stressing him out and he said no :-| . I had a feeling he wasn't being honest with me because he wasn't making eye contact. when he was shouting at me on Saturday I was thinking 'oh my god he's acting just like dad' and I just wanted to leave as soon as I could. He said he didn't say anything because he wasn't ready to talk about it and he was still procesing what happened. I wasn't going to make him talk if he didn't want to. All he had to say was yes and he went to see middle bro and that would of been enough. He doesn't want to break up but I do I don't trust him anymore. we need definitely need space! I told him it doesn't excuse the rest of his behaviour, Gobby, shouting at me and I'm not his punch bag and I lost quite a lot of trust. His middle bro as malicious as he is, is not a good enough reason for him to act so sh*tty. Only after I said that he apologised. Anyhoo Aunty is coming to cheer me up tomorrow (ugh, she's coming so early!) and apparently she has a surprise for me :^) I'm now going home at the weekend, bro doesn't to go to wherever my mum, sis and aunty are going to. I'm still a bit worried about him so I'm going to go keep an eye on him.

Cluster B Bully: Hurt or be hurt CPTSD Victim: Disarm or be hurt. ...The diff that makes all the diff. One can heal, go back to normal and be even better than before; the other never changes (refuses to change...even if you've spelt it out to them that you won't put up with it), Amen. But who cares where they're coming from when IT STILL BLOODY HURTS! (Just GET AWAY from me, you horrid Hurtie Person, ugh/yikes!) Yup, I'm with you. It's time for him to learn better resilience and self-control. Time to grow up. It's called 'Feel the fear and do it anyway'. This is WHY the saying "Relationships are hard, hard work". It's VERY hard work - hard on the heart! - feeling the fear (of making yourself vulnerable/being the opposite of (yawn) macho) but doing it (risking further hurt and humiliation) anyway. In your case, that being, his admitting he has a soft side as much as a hard/strong side (i.e. "Ermagheeerd, I've just discovered he's actually a human being, not just a macho prat!". :-p)... and is *meant* to...because if he so strongly lacked that counterbalancing side, we'd know what was up with him, wouldn't we. The 'rest of his behaviour' was what young and still immature, periodically insecure blokes with female friends tend to do: drag in the other woman or interest/hobby. His case: "Here, Gobby - prove you're one of the lads and do me a favour by pretending you're after me as your boyfriend, see if she gets jealous (and then I'll know she cares, as well as how much)". I've in the past had numerous blokes *admit* they were doing this with their girlfriends at the time (and I've told them off and put them straight, don't you worry). 'You always hurt the one you love'. NO, YOU *DON'T*, not unless you're stupid. You LOVE them, couldn't bear to LOSE them, so you make bloody sure you never do! You're more careful. Or you are unless you're far more 'on the floor' than your pride-filled impressions in front of other people would have one believe, and are naturally quite high in normal narcissism. But this is the trouble: when you've 'had it up to Here' with a real-life Narc, even someone normal and healthy acting narcissistic can hurt...because of course, even at that normal level, it's the same behaviour, tantamount to receiving a slap or light punch directly onto an already still-painful wound. So even healthies-in-a-bad-way *do* remind you of your Narc. That's why it's so difficult to tell, bar with the benefit of (snore) Time. Anyway, the word is Panicked/Insecure (feeling out-of-control) and unwilling to just say so and ask nicely for much-needed reassurances. If it ever shows itself to be a pervasive pattern, i.e. happens more frequently than not, however, then you're probably dealing with the real deal. But you've *told* him, now. Drawn your boundary line(s). Very specifically and firmly. Let's see how differently he handles his anxiety attacks next time, shall we? You're right to be wanting to proceed with caution. Well, anyway, enough waffle from me. I thought you handled that *beautifully*. :-) What did Auntie get you?

(Seriously, though, Scopie-pies - what *are* Tater Tots?)

"Ermagheerd", guys! Have you noticed what the 'time' is? It's just hit me: this thread's now been going for just over 2 years! :-) Oh, and - we missed our anniversary, look. Whoops.... heh... Well, better late than never: Lily, I bought you some flowers. Regrettably, however, I ate them. But it's the thought that counts, right? [Narc pee-take joke] Scopes, I bought you some Tater Tots. But I didn't eat those because you haven't told me what they are yet and I know never put strange things into my mouth. And that is as rude or as clean as Sir would wish! Ergo, if that's not a gift, I don't know what is. [insert halo] Plus, it's nearly Christmas. Here, guys, let's see if we can go even longer. Ever been entered into the Guinness Book Of Records, either of you? [wiggles eyebrows]

https://minimalistbaker.com Best describes sweet potater tater tots

Woo hoo! That's right over two years running here! Btw you'll have to search sweet potato tater tots on the menu

Oh I LOVE sweet potato, especially as Fries. You've made me hungry now. Cool-looking recipes, actually, think I might try a few of those some time. Cheers! Lils is obviously busy hanging with her uni posse, look? :-)

(PS: Are you thus far as impressed with LABRNR as I am?)

Tom wants to now explain to me what happened when he went to see his bro and he's not accepting that we have broken up. He wants to meet up to talk. He doesn't know I know this ...yet. I met up with his housemate gf, not just so she could tell me this next bit were just becoming really good friends. But you remember that camping hol Tom went on, after helladay? She was there and she told me Tom and Gobby turned up at the exact same time and they shared a tent. She said at the time she questioned them both separately about it, coz she didn't think it was right. Gobby apparently told her, she 'didn't give a sh*t what it looked like' (she wouldn't) and Tom didn't think there was anything wrong with it, just two friends sharing a tent. He was determined to go on that camping hol for those last few days. Then he let Gobby move in and that's when she confronted all three of them and why she texted me, all makes a bit more sense now! She didn't know if she should tell me about this but I'm pleased she did even if there's nothing to it. So I dunno if I should confront him on this or what to say to him, if anything or just stay away from him for the moment. But there was me moping around,wondering if I should of broken up with him, partly coz I was remembering all the nice times we had. Update on my dad is that he's on holiday for the next few weeks, I doubt he's gone alone, so he's away for two birthdays coming up, which is actually quite a relief! I think my mum and auntie are planning something for xmas. Aunties surprise was she gave box of xmas Decs to decorate my uni room with (bit too early for me) ...and a fake small xmas tree, to go on my desk, which belonged to my grandparents, so it's like more then 10 years old. This 'xmas tree' has one ball ball on and a bit of tinsel half heartedly wrapped round it and it's a bit wonky... it helps that I remind myself she's a bit crazy but it's quite nice and sentimental ...the other surprise is she's taking me away somewhere :-) hasn't told me where yet she just wanted to make sure I was free. Yeah, I'm impressed with labrnr! she moved really fast as well ! I'm pleased she's not living with him anymore.

Been really up against it this week! Be with you tomorrow or Sunday latest, but, aiming for tomorrow.

LILS sounds like Tom wants his cake and eat it too. I'd stand fast and let him pass especially with Gobby in his life.

Oh, that is so tedious! I was two-thirds through my reply when I got that stupid "Snap! Something went wrong" screen, so now it's going to HAVE to be tomorrow night. Ach, sorry Lils. (PS: Why do the Americans seem to think Snap means Oh Darn It?) (Note to all Americans: it means Same Here!) (Glad we got that one sorted!) But just quickly (we can discuss it, plus the other stuff, more tomorrow): Tom is acting very thick. But Tom is *not* thick. This means, in either chronic or acute Fight or Flight. There was never going to be a happy outcome, whether the lad has been soliciting this young woman's help to make you cling tighter to him like he didn't dare more simply do to you (treat her mean to keep her keen...lessons in imbecility by offering yourself up as a pawn in some Narc's bid to indirectly ruin relationships/stick it to "disgusting" women everywhere) or was trying to slide seamlessly from his relationship with you to one with Little Miss Mersey Tunnel Mouth...or indeed keep you as main squeeze and her (willingly if grudgingly, due to her obvious lack of self-esteem and -respect) his bit-on-the-side. Here's the only problem with those last two, though. Presumably, if we're to believe (curiously non-subtle) impressions, he's been seeing her behind your back, long enough to have eventually progressed to naughties with her in a tent, and now, going out for meals (while objecting to your doing likewise) - correct? And impressions further suggest they're going great guns - yes? Because after they 'sealed the deal', she 'moved in with him' - yes? Then why hasn't he dumped you weeks or months ago in favour of his supposed new and more tantalising relationship? What's all this 'want to talk' business in aid of? See it? Or, if he wanted to date both of you - why mess around with her in front of witnesses (the other campers) whereby it'd make it too easy for you to "find out" about the sleeping arrangement, whereby you'd be bound to refuse to play two-timed girlfriend and permanently walk off in disgust? I mean - he does know you. Why not keep it secret? See? Neither one adds up, doesn't serve his interests. Whichever way you look at it. His interest was fear-based thus incapable of hitting on further-flung consequences. He stopped at 'make her jealous' and never got to 'she'll likely dump me, regardless of whether for deliberately making her jealous or for two-timing her'. I mean - duh? *I* know you wouldn't ever sell yourself short like that so he *certainly* should. Truth is, he does. It's a deliberate manipulation that's backfiring horribly because he failed to think it through properly (in a hurry, was he?). So I'm not surprised he wants to talk and (we hope not, but -) make up lots of plausible excuses and explanations. Don't take him back unless you hear 'I was being incredibly stupid, trying to make you jealous and fight for me because (etc)'. A full, signed confession. He's gone too far for trying to save face. He'll just make things worse if so. But you must KNOW all of this - what makes more sense and how whatever doesn't and can't, accordingly doesn't/can't - otherwise, why not tell him to take his 'talk' and shove it? I see no dumping. I see a threat of a dumping. I mean - quite right, too...all of that was - taking it as true - a dealbreaker. But if you've truly dumped someone then there's no point in talking - think about it. You know he was (very badly) playing games, don't you. Fine if you were both still 13-15. So that's your real problem, Lily, that's your real sticking point. His immature choice about how to deal with his resultant loss of confidence on 'waking up' about his middle brother in terms of extent and unacceptability ("Lily showed that kind of behaviour is definitely unacceptable, is clear-cut abuse, in which case..." - insert delayed shock, hurt, etc.). Have you outgrown him, Lily? I mean, in terms of the 'waking up and freeing yourself from the Matrix' event as led to seeing through your dad and not taking any more of his (these days, Xtra Large) crap, aimed at you or any of your family... meanwhile starting your own business - OWN BUS-INESS!...meanwhile managing the welfare and reactions of your siblings (and mum at times)... As a Recovery Path - isn't he where you were last year? Has he lost his manliness in your eyes? Do you suddenly feel you've been dating someone's slightly younger brother?

Yeah, I think I have out grown him, maybe for a little while now, I think things only really continued and I didn't get fed up sooner was coz he agreed to come on helliday and was supportive with my dad. He has lost his manliness and yea def feels like I've been dating someone younger in the last few months. I miss the old him coz in the beginning we seemed to be on the same wavelength, apart from the odd insecurity from him. I don't think he has cheated with gobby, I don't think he actually fancies her, he's just using her. I know why he wants to talk, he wants to tell me how bad things are with his brother and wants me to feel sorry for him and guilty for breaking up with him and take that as an excuse for his behaviour, which I'm not going to. They all need counselling! The only person I feel sorry for is his mum.

Here's the problemo (or maybe not? - that's for you to say): Is this phase of feeling you're now too ahead of him, just temporary due to his awakening (as tends to put people in the foetal position and, whether typically or momentarily low on self-control strength, acting accordingly)? Or is it permanent? Are you COMFORTABLE with your decision? Or is the decision actually a way to assuage your sense of having been victimised and its accompanying pain? Alternatively, are you rationalising and over-complicating what is actually very simple: that you've got to a place on the Recovery Path whereat you've had a gut-ful of wounded egos - egos with chunks taken out ot them, trying to put it back by stealing chunks out of yours or what should be yours - and simply can't tolerate so much as one atom-worth of needlessly immature acting-out from anyone? IOW, is even natural/normal-level narcissistic behaviour proving too much for you, lately? And, indeed, is this just normal level? If it is normal level yet is still proving too much for you (which would be understandable) then you need a BREAK. So THAT you can have time to find out whether you just needed a break and, thereby, save yourself from having to always look back with regret at what was an overreaction? I mean, it's a big decision, isn't it? Are you SURE-sure-sure? Maybe it wasn't an overreaction? What I'm saying is: is his acting-out understandable to the point of excusable, considering what he's going through? Intention is everything. And not having any intention at all, is an accident or sloppiness. The only way to prove irrevocably whether something was an accident...a blip... a loss of control under overwhelming duress, and this applies especially on pain of being fired, is whether the person ever dares REPEAT IT after said Final Warning. My wise ol' dad used to tell me, 'Bugs Bunny says...to keep your teeth white....brush them every morning...and brush them every night...... [sung] Up and down, up and down, till they're clean and sparkly'. Which has nothing to do with this issue, LOL, aside from BEING CLEAN AND SPARKLY. Aka walking away with a clean conscience and no regrets - ever. I just turned it into a jingle so's you won't ever forget it. Thanks to its annoyance factor, LOL. No, but seriously folk... That was when I was three, four... Once I was a prepubescent, he got even more specific and serfisterkated and would say: Never, ever, ever, EVER make ANY decision if you're either direction of Neutral. And I turned out alright! :-) I'm sharing my dada with you because yours is so crap and your mum's got her hands full right now, and this is a job for a dada. (Mushy Night... Get it whilst stocks last LOL.) Guilt is a KILLER. Certainly a Hobbler. I would hear him out. BUT ON THE PHONE. That way, if he's hoping his "incredible magnetism" will work on you and disarm you against firing his a*se, then - FOILED [insert evil world-dominator style cackle].

...Without his 'superpower', Chemistry, he'll have nothing but THE TRUTH to save him. Or lies. Which means: Either what he says will make perfect sense or it won't. Basically, if you find you believe him then it's truth. If you find it doesn't make sense or add up, it's lie (or some of it is).

Put even more simply, if you listen and at whatever point find yourself exhaling and suddenly missing him - Truth. Feelings. They're not always 'orrible; sometimes, they're mighty useful to point of magical. :-)

To be even clearer: If he tells you porkie-pie excuses then that's a case of DARING TO REPEAT IT. In which case - "Wiv regret, yore faard".

To be even clearer: If he tells you porkie-pie excuses then that's a case of DARING TO REPEAT IT. In which case - "Wiv regret, yore faard".

(Is there an echo in here? LOL)

No I think I was a bit too hasty. Angry yes. For the first few days I was like, 'wooooohoooooo, I'm free and single' and was totally convinced I needed the space from him and he was a complete and utter insecure tw*t... but then I did start to really miss him and got really sad. He was keeping up the phone and texts etc. I know what his middle bro is like and I hadn't listened to him properly about what happened. I wasn't forgetting his insecurities or Gobby but I also thought why am I even letting Gobby get potentially what she wants? (If she wants him). She can sod off. yea I was uncomfortable. And thinking all of this, couldn't concentrate on anything else and questioning myself. So I listened to Tom on the phone, it was a looong phone call. He knows he's been an idiot and he's acknowledged everything and apologised. He says he has a fear of loosing me and others which doesn't feel like an excuse coz I'm remembering how he was when his dad was in hospital! He didn't jump in with excuses either. His bro is mentally unwell by the sounds of it (his mum is trying to get him some help) that's basically what him and his mum discovered when they went to visit him. Tom said he went with every intention of being nice and brushing off any comments thrown at him which is how he normally deal with middle anyway. He was hoping for some sort of relationship to start. But er no ... Middle bro was drunk and drinking (Tom thinks dr*gged up too) when they saw him and he told them he hadn't been to work and didn't give a sh*t anymore. In the past he's always bragged about where he lives and how great his job but they saw the oppsite. His house was apparently a tip, not just messy, but really unhygienically too. On top of all of that he was nasty to both tom and his mum told them to f**k off and when they tried to stay and talk to him but he practically threw them out. I thought his mum was the only one who had a relationship with him so that's a bit weird. So I can understand Tom wasn't his normal self after, and he was obviously stressed out beforehand too. When he was telling me this at one point he had to call me back coz he was getting really upset. I just wished he had told me but maybe he couldn't. He said he tried to confine in Gobby on their night out but apparently she's a cr*p listener, and then talked all about her problems...really?! duh... I could of told him she'd do that. He says he wants to see me but hasn't pushed to. I think still maybe some space is gd until xmas hols. ************ Sis had an angry reaction (probably normal) to a present my dad sent her. Well, she threw the present in the bin but it was mainly because my dad had written his nick name for her, in the card, which she tore up and said he wasn't allowed to call her that anymore. There is a letter too which she won't let anyone see it.

Hmmm... 1. What has Gobby being a bit of a cow - or even were she an angel for that matter - got to do with Tom being incredibly unkind to you in a deal-breaking manner? Does that have any bearing? 2. What has Gobby being a bit of a cow got to do with why he didn't there-and-then put-paid permanently to the disgusting way he'd been treating you when your uni friend spelled out how/why as well as showed him how bad and socially unacceptable it was by bawling him out for it, even in front of other people (to-boot - his allies, not hers)? Does that? 3. You're Tom, Lily. You've realised the unfair and horrid treatment you tolerated, your whole childhood, at the hands of a close family member was NOT normal and in fact abusive. And then you see your bully, the brother you justifiably abhor, seemingly having a mid-life crisis and bouncing off the walls. (Just Desserts, surely? But,...) Do you react by treating Tom the cruel and horrid way he's treated you? For months at a time? Failing to be woken up to how CRUEL you've been, even when confronted loudly and animatedly in front of a small crowd? 4. Just because he behaved like that once before, over his dad's health-scare situation, doesn't make this repeat performance any more acceptable. Why did you think it did? (Or is it just that you wrote your account facetiously and I've taken you literally?) Also, why would he have been scared he could lose you - and, allegedly, "acting accordingly" towards you - just because his dad were ill? I don't get that? Was he 'funny' with anyone else close to him around that same time? What about this latest occasion? 5. Did he cry or have to break off the call when you told him how things had been and felt for you because of him and only him? Or just when talking about 'woe is him'? Does that, too, have any bearing, therefore? 6. Does he understand that intimate conversations about feelings are the exclusive territory of your mother and (then/or) romantic partner, and that even attempting to share them elsewhere constitutes a walking through the gate onto the first paving-slab of the Two-Timing Path? Does he understand that "a relationship" is first and foremost an accumulated mass of sharing of feelings as well as shared time/activities? Presumably, he already knew you weren't a crap listener - in fact, the distinct opposite? And yes - presumably, he could have long ago worked out out that she wasn't a 'listening ear' kinda candidate? Hmm. Is any of the above making sense according to logic plus how decent folk behave? WHY couldn't he tell you? Does he think manliness equates to a refusal to share feelings with your [wait for it] Feelings Sharesies partner? 6. Be brutally honest: did your exhalation and elation cease because he was constantly tapping you on the shoulder and prodding you? And had you given your consent for him to 'keep up communication' - or to that degree? Let's get to the crux: 6. Did he promise never to 'kick the cat', ever again? And does he understand that if he for some strange reason upsets you again to that degree (and especially for that long), just because he's got stress in his life now, like you've for 2 years straight been having yet (I gather) never taken out on him - he's O-U-T, Out? Or did you forgive him *without* that (set in stone) treaty because his sad story about his brother made you feel sorry for him as made instantly forgiving him feel all too "next step" easy? (See what I did there? ;-)) In other words: did the Defendant simply sabotage - specifically halt - your case for the Prosecution by disarming you, the examining barrister, through activating your "Mummy Make It All Better" programme, Lily? If (hypothetically) offered a re-trial, would you take it? 7. "He says he wants to see me but hasn't pushed to." That's strange? No compulsion to speed on over for that naturally much-needed Kiss & Make Up session; no cementing the reunification deal in case it falls apart during and/or because of his absence? Has he still got a car? How long is the journey to your uni from his? Who's he going to kiss and cuddle (and other stuff) with, then? And how long since he last held you? OR... were you trying to say, he asked but you declined and he didn't push his luck? 8. "I think still maybe some space is gd until xmas hols." (Good/phew! You're still with me! Couldn't really tell, not reading ahead. My bad.) YES. SO DO I. So that's two of us, then? ********* (What do you think, Scopes?) ********* PS: Good on lil blis. She clearly gets the whole 'you burned that relationship so now you have to start again from scratch or build a totally new one [as doesn't allow for over-familiarity privileges]' concept, look. (Did she pick that up from you and bro?) Methinks she won't show you the letter because you'd all explode with outrage and march over to his. waving your scythes and pitchforks (with me in tow) (I bagsie the tractor mower). What was the present - do you know?

Whew!its taking longer to wait for the scroll down to the bottom of page button than using my finger to slide the scroll bar whahhh! I know how that emptiness in your soul feeling is LILS.

Yep, I'm still with you! I've realised whatever way I try to look at this, I always come to the same conclusion in my head, which is that we need space. I knew he'd get me with his bro story and I'd start making excuses for him but I'm thinking a bit more clearly now. :-/ I'm not completely convinced that he will change. He knew it was his last chance last time and he promised he'd change but he still went messed it up. It's not like he didn't know. If I forgive him now, then I won't be 100% happy and it would be hard to get back what we had. I think I'd be waiting for him to do something insecure/immature again. He's still got Gobby to use. Or the next time he has contact with his brother he'd take it out on me. With his bro I don't really understand the way he dealt with it. If it was me and I just saw my bro in that state, I probably would of told Tom not to come round because I wouldn't want to take it out on him, but he couldn't even be honest when I asked him. With wanting to see me, he just knew not to ask and that I wasn't taking any crap. He's now suggested to come see me on Saturday at my uni, which I told him no. I don't think it would be a good idea and he's not staying over! He has his car at uni but I recently discovered the train is just as easy. But it's under 4 hours now. Last time he held me ....Properly, when it wasnt for comfort coz of my dad and because we wanted to, I'd say before helliday. It's been a while! Def not after Helliday, or when I was last in Durham, we had a date night but then his friends joined us and the next morning he got up and went to the gym with gobby. Bye then... Tom has done something else too. Jamie (remember him?) has told me that on social media, Tom's changed his relationship status (he had to explain it to me a bit, I have no idea) from 'in a relationship' to 'it's complicated'. So now all his friends and family are commenting and giving him lot of attention. Jamie knew I wouldn't like it, coz I don't like these kinda sites, but he also (apparently) called to see if I was ok since every else is asking Tom. I didn't tell him much, just talked about other stuff. I have spoken to him ages and he seems to matured and Tom hasn't! *************** My dad got sis clothes, which he never normally does and shouldn't do again, he def didn't have any help this time. It was like he went shopping for 80 yr old not a 14 yr old. It was a scary looking blouse thing, which was too big, and didn't come from a normal high street shop, more like an independent one and some socks. I have a feeling he wanted her to throw a tantrum about it, and if he had been successful in making her really spoilt when was younger she probably would of done. She was a bit confused but found it amusing. It was more the card, that made her angry.

Scopes, there's a rather crafty knack to loading without all the frustration: As soon as you click on the thread title, go boil the kettle and make a nice cup of tea / mix a G&T with ice 'n a slice, come back - VOILA! No frustration; quite the opposite. :-) (You can't CHANGE THE THREAD LOADING, you can only CHANGE YOUR REACTION OR RESPONSE TO IT..."ommm....") ;-)

Scopes, there's a rather crafty knack to loading without all the frustration: As soon as you click on the thread title, go boil the kettle and make a nice cup of tea / mix a G&T with ice 'n a slice, come back - VOILA! No frustration; quite the opposite. :-) (You can't CHANGE THE THREAD LOADING, you can only CHANGE YOUR REACTION OR RESPONSE TO IT..."ommm....") ;-)

Oh ugger it! Forgot to save and got that Snap crap. Soz Lils, will have to try again tomorrow or Monday latest. In the meantime, though: DON'T TOUCH THAT KNOB! (Jamie)

LOL! That's the ticket!

Eww, gross no way. Won't be going anywhere near him! I realised after speaking to him again, he hasn't actually changed at all, was all an act. He started telling me the amount of girls he's been sleeping with and then asked me if I wanted to come round to his. Does he think I'm that stupid? Er...no thanks and bye! I'm so pleased I didn't tell him anything about what's happened, I think he might of gone back on Facebook and said something on my behalf, just to wind Tom up. Not trustworthy!

(Good. And yes, he (Jamie) would have.) Lily, Tom has changed the game. Since your decision to call Time-Out, he has now introduced a Dealbreaker. Time-Out/Space is no longer a fitting response from you. It's become inappropriate. It's placing you in the Victim position. With his mouth/above-table, when you (rightfully) demanded space, he basically went, 'Ohhh, okayyyy'. But UNDER the table, he turned around and punched you AGAIN...EVEN HARDER THAN BEFORE. And worse - humiliatingly (he hopes) out 'in public' (FB)! First was, "Do it [claw me back] or the puppy gets it (using Gobby The Handgun)!". When you (naturally, rightfully) protested, you got, INSTEAD OF SORRY BEHAVIOUR TO MATCH HIS VERBAL CLAIM, NOTE: "Do it [drop your punishment, claw me back] or the puppy gets it (using any and every damn woman in Ether World)!". From threat using Handgun to, Machine Gun. What's he trying to do - 'kill' you? He's in a (not really, not by healthy standards) Win-Win situation: if it doesn't work, his sudden advert for applicants to be your replacement will (not that it'll attract any *nice, healthy* women, mind); if it does work - he'll get you back (as his disrespected gf-not-gf) *and*, secretly, a few women's phone numbers to-boot. (Why have one gf when, thanks to the distance/non-monitor-ability you can have lots?) Is that doing or saying a massive apology and showing shame and regret for already having wounded you? You're walking down the road, when someone bumps hard into you, enough to hurt. You yell, OW! Instead of saying, 'Oh God, sorry!' - they just look at you. You say, 'Aren't you going to say Sorry?'. They react by saying 'Sure!' as they headbutt you. Which this time *really* hurts. Gross Inappropriate Affect. Do you date that weird and horrid person? Or if you were already dating him, would you continue to keep him on as your boyfriend as well as be seen to? Would you give a sh*t if it turned out that person had held resentment(s) towards you for god knows what or just because they could sense you were going off them a bit? At best - buy them a self-assertion course for Xmas. But don't date them. Why haven't you already informed me you've dumped him because of this latest, worse (frankly, *appalling...gobsmackingly hurtful*!) move? Are you in shock (even background) and paralysed? Does telling him to "do one!" feel intimidatingly like some big, drastic and scary thing to do? *Or*... have you got your White coat and clipboard out, having decided to keep Tom as your very own specimen to prod, poke and study?....as you compare him to LEA's git?

("LOL! That's the ticket!" Que? What is?)

Whew! It's faster to scroll down. "The ticket is" boil a pot and make a cup of tea/ make a G/T with a slice,come back-voila! Btw I am officially trailer trash!

I knew I was going to dump him, coz it was such a sh*tty thing to do, it was just doing it. I think I did go into shock/paralysed. I needed a few days to get my head around it and did feel a bit scary actually. After Jamie told me, meg was keeping an eye on what was being said. Apparently people were going 'oh no what happened', and Tom was telling them we were having a break or more like I needed a break. sounds like he was taking all the sympathy he could get and was liking comments and thanking people and how he ' hoped' we get back together. Anyway I don't want to know anymore. He's an a-hole but it's still hard because I thought he was a nice decent person and we were a good match (in the beginning) and he wouldn't ever do anything like that. Yesterday was the day. He called me and the first thing that came out of my mouth was 'you ba**ted' ha, not what I planning to say! I didn't shout it, but said it as coldly as I could. At first, he pretended he didn't know what I was talking about and then as soon as I mentioned FB, changing his status for everyone to see, and being a tw*t in general, he was like 'oh that? Why are you upset about that? People change their relationship status on fb when their relationship changes' ... gr I think if I was standing in front of him I might of inflicted pain on him. I wasn't going to listen to any excuses I told him he can change his status to single because we are no longer together. So now he's sorry, didn't realise, and I've been getting lots of texts but he can get lost. Ugh, I think I'm going to stay single for a very, very long time!

Officially trailer-trash? I'll be the judge of that, thank-you. And from I've seen - constantly - you're a true gent. So there. :-p

Officially trailer-trash? I'll be the judge of that, thank-you. And from I've seen - constantly - you're a true gent. So there. :-p

Lils, Phew. But, poor you. (((hug)))...[[[massive handshake and admiring thumbs-up]]]...***keys to my car*** (I'd trust you with anything now). Invasion Of The Body Snatchers. "Who are you and what have you done with Mr Great-Guy Tom?!?" Question: [a] Did he ever exist or was it just that the normally nasty boy (who doesn't know how to behave and treat people, even girlfriends) was so high on Dopamine at first, that he was in a constantly sunny mood - meaning, the minute its production dropped, so did the good mood that had artificially taken him out of nasty boy territory and into nice boy? [b] Is he perfectly aware of what a (his perception) "tough boy, tougher than all those mushy idiots" he is and always has been, and knowingly, deliberately, concertedly conned an angel like you into becoming his Uptown Girl? He's behaving highly manipulatively. He's fashioning a piece of sculpture out of his own poo. But acting like it's top quality clay. And because he's going through the gesticular motions of working with clay, those FB (duh) surface-thinkers are being fooled it's clay, and thus are not even THINKING about the whys and wherefores (like, WHY would Lily want a break that was serious enough for Tom to (shouldn't be!) posting about?). And he's rewarding them with his, 'Oh, THANK-YOUs!'. Victim-Bully. They kick you then burst into tears, claiming to mummy that you kicked them. (Well, they are only 4, remember?) He's calling in the troops, is what he's doing. Don't be surprised if you start getting contact from those collecting intel for him on how you feel and what you intend and when, and those wanting to play re-matchmaking hero ("Aww, he's not that bad?"). Ignore all but the ones who would rather YOU made up their mind. (And nuff already said about the No-Shamey-Jamies.) This stage certainly sorts out the wheat from the chaff. You get the wheat, he keeps the chaff. (I'd say that was fair, wouldn't you? ....Justice. Because his don't give two hoots for him, off-stage. Yours do, though.) "Anyway I don't want to know anymore. He's an a-hole but it's still hard because I thought he was a nice decent person and we were a good match (in the beginning) and he wouldn't ever do anything like that." Good girl. 24-carat Gold star! So did I. So did I. Me too. However, I'd be lying if I'd said I weren't reserving judgement. After all, if you're born into and grow up within La-La Land's confines then it stands to reason you're going to be mixing purely and only with these types: knowing bullies, careless bullies, victims, self-blinkerers, victim-bullies, stubborn (hurrah!) bugger vigilantes (full-time job). And as the top experts will tell you, sometimes - especially if it's your third in a row - you can discover that *everyone* important in your life is whatever degree of Narc, and the victim's aren't worth staying for, meaning, going zero contact from your entire social life! (Not you, though.) You can do this. You 'buried' your own father. A boyfriend is nothing - despite I get that it makes having buried your own father feel that much worse because the boyfriend was supposed to be your consolation prize and a coping mechanism. Thank God for Meg. ************ "He called me and the first thing that came out of my mouth was 'you ba**ted' ha, not what I planning to say!" Oh yes it was. It was just something you'd have suppressed, normally. And good for you! Heh-heh - proof: "but said it as coldly as I could. " Surprised you had time? LOL LOL LOL Listen, Lily, he IS a basst'd. So he deserved the label. He had ZERO NEED to treat you poorly, let alone THAT disgustingly! Ah, but he does. His broken wiring compelled him. How DARE he make it everyone's business! Ah, but...broken wiring. It's so frustrating, isn't it? Because basically, the, let's say, ROMANTIC or INTERPERSONAL Loon behaved like one. Who do you direct your resentment at? His dad? His dad's dad? His dad's dad's dad?.... His great-great-great- grand-milkman? Society? The government? Humankind? The world? God/Fate/Nature? Him. Tom. BECAUSE... SO DID YOU GROW UP IN AN ABUSIVE HOME AND *YOU* DIDN'T ROLL OVER AND BECOME JUST LIKE DEAR OL' DAD FOR A QUIET LIFE (AND THE EASY PERKS), DID YOU! What a wimp. Here, it paints a new light onto middle brother's state and behaviour (and crisis), doesn't it? Maybe brother's had too much - from all quarters - of THIS kind of crap? : "'oh that? Why are you upset about that?" "People change their relationship status on fb when their relationship changes' Yeah. BY AGREEMENT AND MUTUAL CONSENT - DOUBLE, TRIPLE-CHECKED! Diff/all the diff. One treats you like a slave-object, the other like an equal human being with equal rights not to have your sensitivities shredded. His behaviour is loaded with glaring symptoms, isn't it? "... gr I think if I was standing in front of him I might of inflicted pain on him." After you?! Oh, look, another symptom from the one-trick-pony script! : "So now he's sorry, didn't realise, and I've been getting lots of texts." (Oh, did you NOT realise, Forrest? Well, then, leaving aside the giant, cruel a-hole part - you're too THICK to deserve a woman, then! Best you resign, fella-me-lad!) Ugh. Lets all say Ugh together. UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH. Oh, wait - you already did (and it's just Scopesie to go next): "Ugh, I think I'm going to stay single for a very, very long time!" I believe you. And I'm very pleased for you. Giant Upgrade here you come! I wouldn't want you to miss out on that. You take all the time in the world to untie all those millions of ropes and shackles. You'll know when they're all off. You suddenly find you could actually fly! How are your Uni friends?

PS: What's your We're Over gameplan? Are you going to block him to stop him from prodding and poking your wounds - his access-to-you holes - so they won't get to heal/close and he can crawl back in if and whenever he fancies? (Loaded question, look. LOL)

What's happening, Lils? Has Tom managed to redeem himself, somehow? Or are you just busy?

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUGH....There I said it

Tom's been trying to redeem himself , but I'm not buying it, coz I don't trust him. I don't trust that if we got bk together (which I doubt will happen, I've made up my mind now), in a month or twos time, he'll go back to what he was doing before. He's desperate to meet up to talk too, his favourite reasoning at the moment is, we have the same friend who throws a house party around xmas and he doesn't want it to be awkward if we both go. But as far as I see it, if he's going to be that uncomfortable then he doesnt have to go! I'm still going. He's probably worrying about the stupid fb thing he did and people questioning him and I could share my side of the story, I wont no one else's business, but he doesn't know that. For the moment I've told him to stop contacting me or I will block him on everything. annoyingly, he's got some of my stuff and I've got some of his, which I could drop round at his family home and i could forget about my stuff, which I'm not too bothered about ...might do that...was thinking aloud there :-D. I would like to think the nice tom existed in the very beginning, but I'm not too sure. I was a little weary in the very beginning because in the first year of sixth form, he was going out with some else, then he broke up with her in the summer hols and then asked me out almost straight away but I decided to forget about that fact because he was being so nice about my mum and dad and he drove me to see auntie etc. There were also signs in how he spoke to his mum and how he dealt with things that I didn't agree with or it just seemed there was possibly another side to him. As much as I don't like middle bro, I do feel a bit sorry for him now, I think he's actually been quite neglected by all the family. Ive Made 3 firm uni friend + meg. New girl friend is a bit flakey tho! She either has a memory problem or it's something else (she had told me) coz we arrange to do something and she's either really late or completely forgets :-/ . But she's very applogetic when she does and doesn't avoid me. I've seen her uni room and everything is labelled and lists ... shes the one who did go and hide in a cafe for a whole week. so I've just accepted that this is who she is. and 2 guy friends one, Computer geek for future laptop breakdowns and the other just kept on saying hi to me, slight problem is I do kind of fancy him (but I'm not going there I be told my self at least a year of no bfs) and I find myself comparing him to Tom. He's a lot more laid back, open and he wants to have fun, with Tom hes very sociable but he can be really intense and now I'm realising really not a nice person! ********* Ive fallen out with my mum :-( and weve still not made up yet so it's not sitting well with me, can't remember the last time I argued with her. she was mean and was a bit out of character. I went home last fri for the weekend and she was like 'why are you here?!' Really not impressed to see me and it turned into a discussion of am I enjoying uni (I like the course, and I seem to be getting there socially) but she was being judgemental and saying I wasn't trying hard enough. Then there was a discussion about Tom and why don't I just talk to him because 'he's such a nice boy', she keeps saying things like that to me (I swear the next person who says that to me...they are not going to get a nice response!). Then she told me I could stay but I should go back to uni on Saturday, so I left in huff and went back to uni and hit all the fri night traffic. Doh. It just would of been nice for her to acknowledge/understand that coz of what's happened with my dad and tom and starting uni, that maybe I want to be at home at the weekends, just for some me time and family time and I'm not quite up for being sociable. But happy with the three friends I have made so far. I'm wondering if she's stressed out about the divorce, I haven't actually asked about it recently :-/. So I have been feeling quite upset and lonely and just a bit meh... I'm looking forward to getting back into biz over xmas I've missed it! And sis has more creactive ideas apparently.

LILS sounds like guy 2 has possibilities. However I do understand no bf for awhile.

Def no bf for a while, compared to tom, my computer geek friend seems to be a better nicer person too. But I obvs don't really know any of them properly yet. I could do with another (reliable) girl friend...

Be with you tomorrow night or Saturday!

I find scrolling down by hand is faster. Sorry to hear about you having a falling out with your mom LILS. Maybe once you get to know this Meg you might overlook her forgetful faults. But then I'm very forgetful as I have to write labels for things too.

Oh good God, that's FOUR TIMES, since last night, that I've had that "Snap!" nonsense and completely lost what I'd typed so far. [sobs] Fifth time lucky, but from now on I'm going to Copy with every new paragraph. 1. Why should you cooperate like you're still teammates, with Tom? Did he cooperate when it was his job to? NO. So why should you, when it's no longer even your job to? Answer: temperature and present/future pliancy test. Tell him to bog off (in your head)... which I see you've basically done - good on ya! 2. I think it's great you fancy this bloke yet simultaneously daren't date. You'll get to take things one hundred times slower than if you were more than friends (pressure-pressure-pressure!!!). That's what you CALL stealth lab-testing! :-D Or just 'secretly dating'.... so secretly, not even HE knows he's your boyfriend! :-D :-D Poster Boy, we call it. It's a natural reaction come coping mechanism, which shows great resourcefulness. At the same time you'll be able to get to know how a (presumably at this early point) normal, nice, healthy chap ticks. Which is MIGHTILY handy because that'll then be your future, automatic template in terms of How They Behave, including "what you tend to fancy", when back to dating. Given that you already do fancy him - if he IS healthy then look how recovered you could already in that particular aspect! Onwards and upwards! 3. If your friend is ticking all the Nice & Healthy boxes bar the recall problems then it may well be a case of Like (long-term mildly but chronically abused) Attracts Like (long-term mildly but chronically abused). Time and more chatting and divulging, will tell. However, I'd be willing to bet you a Tenner. Although, that wouldn't work if you agreed because you'd somehow, don't know how, "got a feeling". Have you? 4. Re having fallen out with mam: Ah. I wondered when. This is what I call the sharpening of the claws. The victim recovers enough to discover they even have a set, and begins over-eagerly and understandably kack-handedly practising. Usually, on whomever they most trust will understand and forgive. (This was why I was wondering if this was Tom's problem...until he went and took things far too far for that one.) The other element is the fact that you two are behind in your 'chip away at the invisible umbilicus' because your hands were too full at that mum-daughter relationship-developmental point, meaning, having to play catch-up. So 'she's' combining both agendas. But - what do you mean 'why are you here?'. Are you saying you didn't let her know you were coming? 5. I'm surprised at her 'but he's a nice boy' comment. You'd think she of all people would realise it's not ABOUT "Yes, Missus Patterson, No, Missusus Patterson, Fanks, Missus Patterson". It's about the meaningful ACTIONS. Anyone can be a ***t yet act like they're an angel. So - seriously? She thinks a nice boy would effectively transfer his affections to another woman, repeatedly right in front of his poor girlfriend - she who's had zero cause to believe there's any problem between them? Seriously? He did not fail to phone a few times or buy you a bit of a lame birthday present...THE ONCE. He basically made out he was shagging another woman behind your back and couldn't even contain himself when you were around! Or actually WAS shagging another woman behind your back and couldn't contain himself the rest of the time! HERE'S your response! "Yup. He was such a nice boy I just dumped him for no reason whatsoever - yup. And do you know what ELSE he used to do that really pissed me off? HE WOULD SAY 'PLEASE' AND 'THANK-YOU'!....The dirty rotten basstud..." That might snap her out of it? (Edit down wherever you like, LOL) Anyway... Reading all of that - I've got custom-made homework for you: Jackon MacKenzie's book (and website) "Psychopath Free". He addresses far more eloquently than I, an awful lot of the issues you've raised in this post, such AS, the 'non-believers'' invalidating responses to your break-up. Plus provides other suggestions about how to respond and what to reply with. 6. "It just would of been nice for her to acknowledge/understand that coz of what's happened with my dad and tom and starting uni, that maybe I want to be at home at the weekends, just for some me time and family time and I'm not quite up for being sociable. But happy with the three friends I have made so far. I'm wondering if she's stressed out about the divorce, I haven't actually asked about it recently :-/. So I have been feeling quite upset and lonely and just a bit meh..."" I think you should explain it to her like that in an email. But first - DID you let her know to expect you? Reason I'm asking is because of the huge Scooby Clue in her wanting you to be gone by Satur-DAY. I.e. before the (cough) evening. SATURDAY EVENING. You seeing what I'm seeing? ;-) That would make it ONE agenda leading the way, but with Agenda 2 (umbilicus pruning) and Agenda 3 (practising scratching) thrown in, opportunistically only.

PS: Ask that dishy FRIEND to accompany you to the party. But not for making Tom 'jealous' with. Just moral support *and* a genuine, very effective distraction? You don't NEED to date, you've more decorum and self-control than that, THANKS, TOM :-P. You're fine just having friends. You're not some clingy MESS?! That's him. And not even for NICE reasons. Just because, here's someone who dared say No to him - in a big fat way. IOW, I suspect he'll show up with someone. But here's what you do: be honest about it with this guy. That you need a supportive presence, but with him would get the added bonus of the fact you genuinely like him and being friends with him... would he be willing to help a mate out? If not, take Meg. She'll kick him in the KPs if he tries to start anything, LOL. PS: I've thought of a much better retort for your mum: "Why can't you just talk to Dad? After all, he was such a NICE boy!" (And then leg-it! LOL)

If you’ve read my reply to lea (yes impressed with her and how well she’s doing, even if she feels she’s gone backwards, I don’t think she has?) then you’ll know that I took toms stuff back to his family home, and put it on the door step, this weekend. I managed not to bump into any of his family, or worse him, which was what I was worried about. I just did a drop and run, it was raining quite heavily, there is no cover outside his house...so erm items might of got a quite wet (hehe, small revenge is sweet). And then I blocked him. That wasn’t easy but I just kept reminding myself of what he did and the type of person he is and now, I’m feeling a bit better for doing it. Spoke to our friend, who is having the Xmas house party to see if dishy friend (who’s agreed to come with me) could come and he said yes (Y). He told me other people have asked if they can bring gfs or bfs and he’s said yes. Tom had also asked if he could bring someone (I’m guessing gobby) and he told him no and made a bad excuse and didn’t care when Tom questioned him. He said he guessed Tom had been an ar*e coz of the fb thing he did and he doesn’t partially like him anymore. Meg’s and probably cousin will be there too and yes meg will probably put him straight if Tom says anything. She comes across as sweet and innocent but she has a feisty side if you push her too far! Cousin doesn’t believe me on this yet. So yeah, he was planning to bring someone with him. it really wouldn’t surprise me if him and gobby were sh*gging each other by now. Ugh. Dishy friend (he really is) has not long broken up from a gf too, who had been dating since his early teens. So we are kind of in the same boat but he’s a few months ahead. He knows about Tom and what he did. I am trying to act like normal person around him, but Im failing miserably, I go quite nervous around him, which of course he’s picked up on. And I have no idea if the feeling is mutual but I’m guessing that doesn’t matter at the moment and it’s just about being friends and getting to know each other. l did let my mum know I was coming home, admittedly by text...but she read it. We have made up now and she has now acknowledged what happened between me and Tom and now she’s gone off him! I did say to her that I have never questioned her decision to divorcing my dad, so would be nice if she could do the same. Hmm, yes, last Saturday night, she was busy with teacher friend who was coming round, with his two kids. I know at the weekends they meet up to places (with my sibs) because they’ve membership to certain places and sometimes, if it’s far away they make a weekend of it and stay somewhere. She’s discribed their relationship as ‘getting closer’. She said she didn’t really know how I was going to react and wanted to talk to me properly about this in the Xmas Hols, she knew things with Tom weren’t going too well and uni and she didn’t want to add to it. I’m still processing this, coz I want her to take her time but I’ve only met teacher friend a few times and he seems nice enough.

Scroll scroll scroll scroll...wobble wobble wobble plink! I'm a happy scroller;-D LILS you did the right thing, dump and run. Also glad to hear that you made up with your mum.

My ‘jump down button’ stopped working a couple of weeks ago, but started working again now. Do you not have a ‘jump down page’ button scopes? It’s that Good that you’re a happy scroller tho :-p. I’m pleased too! I felt a bit parentless for a few days and that was not a nice feeling.

I do LILS, but mine stopped working too. I'll give the jump down button a try again. Btw is the uneasiness because of your mum getting closer in this relationship?

By golly the jump down button is working just dandy!LILS how about a big (HUG)

Still remember your cups of tea, though. The Chinese knew a thing or two, aye!

Welcome to future world where nothing can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong..

Ugh, getting that Snap thing again and again! Trouble is, if I forget I've copied and go and copy a sentance of yours to paste in - bam, it's gone and then..."Aww, Snap" - lost. Start again... But I might have to get around the most recent thing I've typed and not yet copied, repeatedly getting lost, by posting in a shorter series. I'm glad it made you feel better and - no, I didn't spot it so could you ensure any update is included here first and foremost? Anyway, I'm dead impressed at the fight in you because it's you standing up for yourself, which pumps your "I ain't ever 'avin that nonsense!' muscle to the extent (this case - in one, fell gym session!) where it works reflexively - no analysing, thinking through, self-questioning required; in any future event or culmination-of, you'll to easily recognise the recent-past cocktail of feelings as led all the way (thanks to him - his bed, he can lie in it) to your unceremoniously dumping his stuff back onto 'him' in spite of the fact it was tipping down. Self-re-SPEEEECT! Ah lak eet. Ah lak eet a lot. (Y) (A) You're a fine example to thousands of targets out there! Also liking host's loyalty. (When he's lived a lot longer, in which to build better muscles, he might even manage to stretch to unviting the, whichever creep! But that's really good going for his age; a lot of adults in said same circumstance can't even manage that mandatory level!) Excellent that Mr Dishy accepted the position! (My, aren't you having a serendipitous fortnight! Somebody up there clearly supports you, as well.) Cuz had better get real, then, hadn't he. LOL Wouldn't surprise me, either. But go google as to why the rebound relationship partner has a far-far-FAR harder, more abusive time, and feel sorry for her. Not too sorry - because she's over-gullible and needs to learn, and anyway, she'll have the giant bonus of cottoning-on and dumping before having had time enough to become self-jeopardisingly enmeshed to the point of crippled against daring to dump. Shorter, sharper duffing-up.... at which point of enlightenment, she'll feel sorry for *you* and very ashamed of herself. Don't expect an apology though. The Narc has ensured the 'climb-down' from (cultivated) hostility to direct apology, as could lead to peace talks and banding-up, is a climb too far for your average rebounder/triangulation tool (Narc Triangulation is one of the 'gifts' that just keeps on giving). For the record: let's note that your taking a 'partner' is in response to my predicting (a no-brained based on the fact that these types really *are* "all the same") that Tom would take one (likely Gobby, yes - she'll do for now, including purposes such as this) - the proof being in the fact that he asked the host long before I even suggested inviting Mr Dishy. When you and I've got time, we'll list his run of symptoms as tally with the diagnostic criteria. I'll be good to have all the ticks in one place, will help majorly with easier grieving and getting-over (which bouncing-back, I should mention, you'll naturally do a lot far faster than your much older adults). PS: Re 'same boat': I'm not surprised you're attracting Likes at the mo. The 'scent' as just as strong to other victims as it is arm-chancing Narc bullies, so you do tend to gravitate towards one another (thankfully). Don't worry about appearing nervous. He'd expect that, given that he knows what a 'battering' you took ("man = danger"). Plus I'm sure (Like/Like) he's just hiding it better. Just wait for the eventual spillage, it'll come. No, it *does* matter. But you just don't act on it... won't feel like it for a while, anyway (hence the nerves - they're to stop you until such time as you can be sure you've given him a thorough enough 'frisking'). Nerves are good. Ha-ha - have you realised yet, that you and your mother are both super-furtively and -slowly dating a Mr Dishy? :-D What are you two - a double-act? And I'll bet this teacher is likewise a co-victim. You should point it out to her, that way you can start swapping and comparing notes during phonecalls and visits (superb bonding material). Anyway - great update!

"Welcome to future world where nothing can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong can go wrong.." LOL. 'But I thought you were my friend?- I thought you were my friend?- I thought you were my friend?...' - name the film! (The original, not the disrespectful, moral-message-muddying, so-called modern re-make.)

The irony! They actually showed that movie last night on TV (Future World) I thought you were my friend?- I thought you were my friend?-I thought you were my friend? Hmmm....thinking.....I give up..

Tombstone?

I got a sarcastic, sh*tty watts app message from Tom (I completely forgot about watts app, and to block him on that, doh) saying thanks for dropping off his stuff, it got completely drench. Why he h*ll didn’t I ring the doorbell? He’ll make sure to do the same with my stuff (I don’t really care, he can do what he wants). And to let him know when I want to pay him back for his Switch, which was in there, will cost me about £200+. He’s also guessed I’ve blocked him (well done) without telling him and do I really hate him that much? I didn’t know his stupid Switch games console was in the box, I thought it was just clothes. I hated that thing, he was always playing on it, round my house which I found rude and on Helliday too. it drove me mad. Can I tell him to get lost? he probably thinks I did it on purpose. I’ve written out replies but nothing is sounding good enough to send at the moment. Ugh. I was quite please with Xmas party host. He was toms friend in the first place. Cuz is all loved up at the moment last time I spoke to him all he talked about was meg, which was sweet and it’s nice that they’ve hit it off so well, but he does need to get his head out of the clouds coz meg has strict, scary parents who are very opinionated and quite snobbish. Her mum especially, who I think is on the narc scale and meg has had problems with her and she’s already confined in me that she’s scared of introducing cousin to them. She’s has older sibs who have had problems because her parents have disliked partners for whatever reasons. stupid reasons too. In fact I need to give her a book to read coz she’s dreading the Xmas holidays and going home :-/. Yeah I realised we’ve both got a mr dishy :-D and I’ve kinda done the same as she did, which was get rid of anything that remind me of Tom as soon as I can and move on but not date. Or secretly date. I feel like I ought to get to know her mr dishy properly and his kids. I will suggest to her that we compare notes. I think he is a victim too. I know his we ex wife is difficult and she causes a lot of problems. He has their kids most weekends because she doesn’t want to look after them :-/.

Keep unplugging your life from him LILS. As a young man told me time heals.

Stepford Wives. If you've not seen it - do. Psychological horror (not gory)...Disturbing, thought-provoking, amazing film.

Lils, I've part-lost then fully lost my post (because I unthinkingly replaced my 'clipboard' by copying a sentence of yours) about 6 times tonight. I'm going to have to do it again tomorrow. Please bear with and do nothing in Tom's direction.

I haven’t said anything to him. He’s currently being a pr*ck and sending lots of messages, probably not nice ones (the first few I read weren’t!), not read all of them. I have muted him on watts app, so they don’t ping up on my phone.

He is definitely being a pr*ck. And with a level of aplomb that demonstrates years of practise...under that protracted Mr Nice Guy veneer. Why would we even believe that said gadget genuinely was in there, anyway? (That's what you GET, Tom, for crying wolf.... dem pesky consequences again, eh.) But even if it was? Well, that's entirely his fault, then (ANOTHER consequence!). Because he didn't immediately make an arrangement to get his stuff back, as would have been appropriate. What - it's dispensable when dry, but not when wet? PFF. Crock of beep. He knows it. Either consciously or on some level. It's supposed to be so outrageous that you can't HELP but 'rise to it'.... proving that you still have feelings, equals, are still manipulable. Question is, to what degree as suits what purpose? How QUICKLY do you respond, as well as the strength of it... All of those things give temperature readings as indicate whether you're primed for being his future booty call or willing or hopeful FWB or Triangulation tool, or whatever he might need in future. You are now a tin-opener, kettle or vacuum-cleaner. Thinks he. He doesn't want you back because he's proving that by daring to p*ss you off FURTHER when a bloke who wanted you back would be rightfully walking on the most fragile of eggshells right now. Put another way, where getting what you want and your current and future happiness is concerned, you do not give the middle finger to the angry person holding (supposedly) a loaded gun to your head, in the form of...presenting them with a bill for a damage that resulted from a mindset that he alone, avoidably and needlessly forced you into. Galling, isn't it? He knows it. He SHOULD want you back (irrespective that you don't). But he doesn't and didn't ever genuinely appreciate you because he hasn't got the brains to do so. That would be like sitting a toddler in Lord Sugar's boardroom chair and expecting to end up with the perfect investment candidate. Ain't gonna happen, eh. Lils, minus any identificatory data, can I SEE these messages, please? I'd like a feel for their severity. I won't deal with the rest for now, not until we deal with this harassment.

Oh, yes, and - if you don't rise to it, there's always your over-developed & cultivated guilt nerve as requires remedial action on your part to assuage any icky guilt feelings, namely, wondering - even for a second - whether you should financially compensate him for it. Know the real reason why he's angry (when any normal bloke should be contrite)? What he's REALLY 'upset' about? The fact you've destroyed his cunning little bridge.... his future-convenient excuse to contact you ("I want my stuff back") and, if he at that point decided he had such a need for whatever you could be useful for, to force contact or an actual face-to-face meeting so that he'd be (he thinks) able to draw you back more solidly into being at his service. He wants to present bills? Sure thing! Let's prepare the tally sheet, let us at it!... Via use of emotional cruelty - interference with Recovery rate from mild-but-chronic [= fairly severe] childhood abuse at hands of father + Mental disturbance to academic prowess and adaptivity in first crucial weeks of impressions-making and 'pack place-finding' at uni: quite possibly a future £20,000 [I doubt, you, but it's the principal] Physical duress (as potentially leaves one susceptible to conditions or illnesses now or in old age) [ditto]: £30,000 Total: £52,500. At least. And that's not counting my time. Minus: ....How much is his imaginery Switch? £200? Excellent. Then he only owes you £52,300! Although...He'd first have to present said broken Switch, for you to verify as indeed broken, prior to his coughing-up that lesser amount, fantasy-tell him? :-p ******** Isn't it crazy...A romantic relationship, or should I say, a prematurely-intense and promise-laden romantic relationship is the only normal, 'everyday' condition/environment in which a grade A, fruit-loopy, giant nasty ARSEHOLE AKA JERK can actually AFFECT YOU, as in, UPSET you, even DEVASTATE you, even RUIN YOUR LIFE (or era), rather than simply have you going, 'What? Ugh. Go away, you horrid little man'. When you basically think, Sod off, creep, and, reading those texts of his, laugh derisively at their pure 'Cuckoo-ness' - you'll be officially over him. Here's the great news: Sod off, creep = Saying 'he's being a pr**k' and *doing* 'he' being a prick': 30% (FYI, 50% would be the omission of the word 'being'. He's not 'being', Lils - he 'is'. Nice, normal people can't be so nasty for so long. Feel the difference that one word makes?) Laughing at it/him: (Not yet) 0% Result: already 30% healed! :-) But now bear in mind how the second trimester goes at a considerably faster rate, and again, the third! I give it 3 months. :-) From what I can tell, you're not scared of him (in terms of his ability to *hurt*, rather than irritate/outrage you), but are still hurt over the disappointing result and outcome bit... the hopes you'd had, either for you getting over your loss of ardour thus staying together, or for a nice, gentle, civil break-up and friendship for life. You're over HIM, but not over the fact he turned out to be him and that you're even in this position. You're ahead of target. I am so, so proud of you, Lily, I really am.

(Ignore the duplications. My puter's going weird lately. It's because a techie guy I called out has removed a 'wrong processor' or something ("duuuh...buttons..."), that he said was slowing me down but wouldn't leave me noticeably affected while he ordered the correct one(s), and although he's confirmed he's purchased them, hasn't yet confirmed a date for installing the buggers.... "And I am here", puter going bonkers. I feel a nagging coming on...)

LILS, I KNEW YOU’D FORGET ABOUT WATTS APP, LOL! (ha, yes Tom, it’s hysterical) SO, you've clearly decided blocked me and don’t want to meet up. FINE. You must really f**king hate me to block me without telling me. It could have been all talked out and be amicable between us. So that is YOUR choice. THANKS for dropping my stuff off, which got drenched. Why the HELL didn’t you ring the F**KING DOOR BELL? Or put it behind the back gate where it might of got some shelter? Was that too difficult for you to do? I’ll probably do the same with your things, or take it to charity shop. Do you have a preference? You owe me a new Switch BTW. Go do your research. Will cost you around £200-300. And don’t deny you didn’t do this on purpose or give me any sh*t excuses. It’s the DECENT thing to do and you know it. HELLO ????? Are you going to say anything? No? Okay then, see you at Christmas party. That will be fun won’t it ************** Ugh, Did I actually date, love, like this person, for a whole two years? Because at the moment I’m not too sure who he is. I think if things weren’t happening with my dad, I might of paid more attention and realised and got rid of him earlier. Not sure about replying to him there’s lots I could say but then it’s seeing him at x mas party where he could potentially be a nasty. I wasn’t even too sure about going after reading the above to but then I won’t get to see mr dishy and I think I’ll be ok. And if he approaches me, I’ll scratch his eyes out :-). Been growing nails especially just in case. Yep, that is def what I’m feeling, the hurt in the disappointing outcome and would of hoped for a more mutual break up, which Tom would argue he tried to offer, by meeting and talking, but the damage had already been done long before. And it is coming to terms with who he actually is. The confusing thing this he understood my dads NPD. He pointed things out to me about my dads behaviour that I missed. He hasn’t done as much reading as I have but he underdtands it. And now he’s behaving like one. How does that work? How come he doesn’t stop and think ‘hang on a minute, I’m behaving like a narc I need to look at how I’m behaving’. But narcs don’t do that I guess, they think they’re too perfecto. ‘I am so, so proud of you, Lily, I really am’ - thank you, I wasn’t feeling good at the weekend but that made me feel better. Does show years of practise. I remembered he told me that with middle bro he sometimes used to text him to try and keep in contact. If it anything like he sent with me, then that shows he’s the bully. Good thing is, is having a mr dishy, and I get to make sure he’s got no hidden traits and is normal first! But erm...he’s very nice so far :-) *sighs*. Off uni for Xmas now and we have not stopped texting. Anyhoo, I’m going away auntie tomorrow, still don’t know where. I’m sure some parts will be eventful but I’m hoping it will be relaxing too...and there’s WiFi...

Good GRIEF! I've only read the first three lines and I can't BELIEVE how bad they are! Wait up and I'll read the rest... Good grief, though.

Oooooo this is getting gnarly..

LILS your doing the right thing staying away from him AND!! Coming here

Trying and failing to post. It's not so much the losing what I've typed - because I'm copying as I go; it's the waiting ages to reload, only to lose it again. Seeing the techie guy tomorrow, will insist he either fits the parts with urgency or puts my old, extra processor BACK IN. But this is unacceptable. Saying that, if I post this 'shortie', what I tried to post might appear? Multiply, no doubt! Let's see...

Nope. Well, anyway, as it's now too late I'll tomorrow or Wed latest prepare my reply in Word so I can just copy then paste in here and beat the "Aw Snap!". Meantime, suffice it to say: the Mask is off; he ticks every NPD box; this guy, you actually never met (because he was deliberately hidden from most of your senses whilst those of yours that were still firing properly were obviously very busy with 'mum & dad' and then 'dud'); he's in Narcissistic Rage mode (because you've proven his whole 'system' for way of living... well, put it this way: The Drugs Don't Work...not against a Supanova Empath, anyway...which is a threat, to existential proportions). He needs to 'fight for his life'. Do not delete those texts, whatever you do, but do ensure you've blocked him everywhere. This is so that even if there's a 0.1% chance you'd need a formal No Contact Order, you have what it takes to convince any judge, in the form of the saving while blocking. I'm sure you won't even need one, but knowing you can get one is like having a pair of wings, Lils. It's the psychological sense of protection and safety - priceless.

He won't be nasty. Especially if you're 'with' another bloke and even friends. He just wants you to THINK he will (so you'll stay away). Because, majorly, they're nothing if not cowards. Think about it: even their aggression is done cowardly-ly.

...Although. Lils, do you actually NEED to go to that party? Won't there be others? Or is this special? It's not that I think he'll try to corner or confront you or anything. More the affect it might have on YOU, just SEEING him. Your mind hasn't finished re-categorising him, let alone change its perception of his face and physical form (they'll become ugly to you soon, you wait), which means that it'll likely still go: SEE FACE... ACTIVATE PROGRAMME "PHWOOAR!". I think you could mightily cash-in on not going...

(Lost it again, aaargh!!!) It'll have to be very short: Be prepared to 'lose your bottle' on the night (if only just, facing any more aggro) and make it up to Dishy by taking him for drinks in town...turn that Lemon into Lemonade. You could then test-drive Dishy, unawares by him, as well as develop the meanwhile genuine friendship side. Plan B. Having one will help bring you down from any imperceptible mental effects of that giant agitation exercise of his.

To answer that itchy question, in brief (will expound tomorrow/Wed): because they're giant hypocrites. They can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk. Put another way: 'They don't know their arses from their elbows'.

PS: How come he calls you 'Lils' as well?

PPS: Crikey, you're welcome - in fact, thank yourself! Jeez, you're doing faster and better and more classily than most adults out there!

Yeah they’re not nice but thinking about it, and I have been doing that quite a lot today, Tom was always spiteful and sarcastic when he was angry, feeling insecure or if we argued. Nope, I don’t have to go to this Xmas party, it’s nothing special, it’s just usually fun. Someone else will probably throw a new year onr but Tom will probably go to that too, coz he’s mr popular, unless he b*ggers off to Cornwall (let’s hope so!). I am starting to prefer the idea of just going out with Mr Dishy, and get to know him a bit more as a friend. I think he called me Lils to get my attention and to make me think he was going to be nice, coz he hardly ever called me that . It’s not nice going through this the second time round or coming to this realisation but it feels quicker, where as my dad is more on going,( he’s back from his long holiday!) Tom I can get rid of quite easily.

Phew! Techie Whizz Guy has improved things mightily! Not QUITE finished (need a hard-to-get-hold-of part), but palpably better for the time being. (Scopes, you too obviously need more powerful memory in your gadget, FYI)

"Tom was always spiteful and sarcastic when he was angry, feeling insecure or if we argued." But not to this degree - right? (Obviously.) But, still...So he did show you little flashes? Trouble is, when you're still in that Honeymoon, Love-Bombing, Contrived or Over-exaggerated 'best foot forward' period - because these little flashes/samples (or outright Reveals) are greatly outweighed by what you've taken to be situation normal (him constantly being decent or even lovely), you obviously ignore them or the fact they might be ominous signs, and believe they'll always be very rare, very spaced-out happenings. Particularly as the happy moments are very 'packed-in' to a relatively short period of acquaintance. The flashes/reveals can either be the actor running out of steam or focus and 'dropping the ball', or they can be little tests to see how you'll react If. Or, indeed, to ease you bit-by-tiny-repetition into all such bad behaviour bursts becoming more of a standard and more frequent feature.... desensitisation...until suddenly they've gone from 'special occasions' to part and parcel of your 'relationship'. These are stealth slavers. If on top of that, you add the fact of your massive family-breakdown distraction - you didn't stand a chance of seeing the signs for what they truly meant or indicated (and probably didn't even FEEL them full pelt!). Put a better way: You see only the tips of these, what transpire to have been icebergs. The tips look TINY compared to the sea's visible surface area. But if you could DIVE DOWN at that point, you'd see they were deceptively huge. Unfortunately, where scaling the depths are concerned, you need time to more naturally 'float' down at a (in hindsight) frustratingly slow pace. And then you end up feeling you've wasted all that time with a dweeb of the nasty-nasty variety. Truth is, though, it's no waste at all - PARTICULARLY at your 'starting out' age. It's taught you A LOT. Called, What I Never Ever Again Want To Date (Or Befriend Or Work For Or Be Related To). If only people knew what Mr Nice Guy was like towards you when they weren't there to see. Never mind - that's their lesson to learn (time tells...it just tells that bit faster in the romantic arena with the romantic partner). Anyway, you don't share kids or a mortgage with him so you can just dump and forget. "I am starting to prefer the idea of just going out with Mr Dishy, and get to know him a bit more as a friend." Be careful how you do it, though. You don't want him to feel lured into a date under false pretenses (bogus party). That's why I said to just bear in mind you could find yourself deciding against on the night. My advice there is to go with the intention in your head of staying just for 30 mins or so. Because even if Tom doesn't turn up (he might not, now that you've refused to even indicate, let alone guarantee, that you won't attend), you might still prefer the idea of a cosier twosome - and so might he. So you'd have to say something like, 'Actually, now that we're here, I realise I don't really want to be here, I'd much rather be somewhere else - but how do you feel? Because if you're especially keen to stay, I'm happy to give it a go?'. (Although, obviously if you do feel uncomfortable you'd waive giving him that option, and just make your apologies, etc.) But it is vitally important that you do not allow the platonic date to develop into a romantic one - not one iota. If confronted by such a situation, you'll then have to spill your beans about the attraction being mutual, but adding that your still-battered psyche still daren't even go there. For the time being. In other words, if he wants anything more with you he'll just have to wait until you're 'out of hospital'; you can't date while you're in hospital, you'd likely get endless attacks of "the vulnerables", meaning, the relationship would prematurely crash anyway (doooooomed!). You MUST heal first, THEN recommence your love-life. You okay with that, have you got the self-discipline, do you think? I mean, *I* think. But I don't know how dishy he actually is, LOL. Here's your incentive, however: it's (handily for you) harder for a bloke to wait if the elephant in the room has been taken out from under the table and plonked on the top...it then becomes a case of, "now we know - let's go!". Or as Billy Crystal basically put it, in When Harry Met Sally - "When you've met the person you want to spend the rest of your life with [not your case, but you get the point], you want that life to start as soon as possible". My answer to that is, well tough titty, mate, you're gonna have to. SO HOW MUCH DO YOU WANT HER AND WANT TO WORK HARD FOR HER? *Superb* test-drive Starter course! And if he fails to last that course? He's merely shown he was going to be no good to you, anyway. Make him wait some, Lils. Win/Win. :-) "I think he called me Lils to get my attention and to make me think he was going to be nice, coz he hardly ever called me that ." Let's cut to the chase: is it at all humanly possible that Tom could have at any point along, had sight of this forum and thread? If you don't know - try to think (or read back): did I start to call you Lils before Tom did? And if so - by how long? Bit about your dad being ongoing, noted and agreed. But here's the thing: if you can deal with your dad of all people, you can deal with ANY such type! Obviously you'd rather avoid them to begin with, but in case you ever again miss or underestimate the first lot of clues regarding toxicity, the point is you don't have to worry because that 'massive battle' is the biggest. Every other from there will feel like stacking toddler blocks, relatively speaking. "Tom I can get rid of quite easily." LOL, thanks for proving the point I've only just made! I definitely - factoring in your youth and elasticity for bouncing back, good-as-new, and assuming no 'discombobulators/triggers' in the meantime - give it 3 months! (Although, that is minimum.) That's not long for any fella to have to wait for his first kiss, then, is it? Or maybe it is. But it won't kill him. LOL Let's see if Mr Dishy's a gentleman, shall we? :-)

No Tom didn’t show that side of him to that degree. I did see small flashes but he could very quickly turn nice again. So never saw a full blown narc rage until recently. I remember the first time he called me Lils was when we were on holiday with my family, not helliday. He knew of this forum but he wasn’t interested coz he told me he thought it was ‘weird’. I don’t think he ever saw my post or read it. Was Xmas party last night. Meg and Cuz didn’t come in the end, so it was just Mr Dishy and me. He took his protective friend role quite seriously and he drove so I could drink. I’m so pleased he came with me, because when I did see Tom, I lost off confidence, it was really overwhelming and I wanted to leave within five minutes but Mr Dishy managed to persuade me to stay for at least 30 mins like we had planned. Tom didn’t approach or try to talk to me, he just looked over a few time, whilst flirting with some girls’ and then he left with one of them! I do feel a bit sorry for gobby if she thinks that there is something happeneing between them. I was so relieved when he did go and pleased that we got to stay :-). Mr dishy relaxed a bit too, and he was nice and sociable with everyone (y). I do have the self discipline...despite telling mr dishy in my very, very drunken state that I really fancy him a lot. I was just to tell him I really appreciated him coming with me but I carried on...So if he was unwear of my feelings for him, he def knows now! *cringe*. But I do know and under why it’s important to wait, espically after my reaction at just seeing Tom and I’m ok with it. I took mr dishy out for lunch before he went to to thank him properly for coming and to make sure there weirdness between us. His feelings are mutual but he’s not ready for a relationship yet and he wants to be friends for the moment, which is fine by me. **************** My dad sent me and sibs Xmas presents, which we have opened already just so we don’t have to do it on the day. Bro got a small letter from my dad too, which said now that he’s back from his holiday and is better, he’d ‘love’ to see him. So this has now set bro off in wanting to see him again. I talked to him and asked him if he could wait and see till maybe the new year, so that we can all have a nice Xmas, and don’t have to think/dwell or get into any discussions about him. I have met my mums mr dishy properly now, he’s nice, and I did notice that him and bro got on really well, they didn’t stop talking. We are seeing him on Boxing Day, so I think the more time bro spends with him the better. My mum agrees.

"He knew of this forum but he wasn’t interested coz he told me he thought it was ‘weird’. I don’t think he ever saw my post or read it." I'm afraid I disagree. Now knowing what he's capable of i.e. what he's like - he'd have looked. They want total control over the relationship, remember? If they can get inside intel (your 'diary' thoughts), more's the better, they're getting the richest warnings and pointers possible. It doesn't work, however, in fact, it tends to backfire on them. Because women are 'try your thoughts and feelings on for size' merchants; they say things to see if they agree with what they've said, and then present the finished version minutes or however long later. They get an awful lot, therefore, of DIS-information, act on it, then wonder why it hasn't worked. I'll deal with this: F**k off, Tiny Tom. Lily doesn't even like you any more, let alone love you. Stop wasting your own time (as usual). Unless you're a masochist as well as sadist (course you are) and like torturing yourself (pff - your ego) by reading all about Lily's new fella-to-be? ********** He told you he thought it was weird so that you'd stay away - for fear of being a weirdo, accordingly proving it by being drawn to 'weird' things. This is standard Narc behaviour. They don't WANT you getting healthy counter-feedback, remember? They like to isolate you, mentally first (the acme of Isolation because then it doesn't matter WHO you mix with, you're not going to open up to them about what's going on). He picked on the wrong woman, then, didn't he. :-p ********** Now to Mr Dishy(-To-Be), "he drove so I could drink" He knew you'd probably need one. Huge tick! I'm so glad if - IF - this guy's background matches yours. But be careful, remember that, as well as putting on an act of being stellar, Narcs PRETEND they're co-victims (the minute they can tell or you confide in them), for the fact that it saves "boring" work and time through bonding two people far more intensely and quickly than usual (aim-fire-bullseye!). That he claims co-victimhood is actually just yet another reason for needing to take it slow. Tip: I know it's difficult because you're used to doing everyone else's interpersonal work FOR them, including laying out a menu of reasons/answers ("did you X because of this or this or maybe even this?"), but make a concerted effort NOT to feed anyone a choice of answers when you ask a question. So it's just "why did you X?" and then SILENCE...give them the floor. Half the time, I think, if you leave their answer up to THEM, they tend not to have one that makes sense or adds up with everything. Questions: 1. WHY didn't Meg and Cuz come in the end? 2. Why did Dishy want you to stick it out for 30 mins, what did he say was his reason? ********* "Tom didn’t approach or try to talk to me, he just looked over a few time, whilst flirting with some girls’ and then he left with one of them! I do feel a bit sorry for gobby if she thinks that there is something happeneing between them." There you go. And she clearly does/did, hence, couldn't bear to let him have a private phone conversation with you and kept trying to be overheard the whole time (classic move of the desperate, 'habitually dissed-down, now over-competitive with too much to prove and win' mentality). "I do have the self discipline...despite telling mr dishy in my very, very drunken state that I really fancy him a lot. I was just to tell him I really appreciated him coming with me but I carried on...So if he was unwear of my feelings for him, he def knows now! *cringe*. But I do know and under why it’s important to wait, espically after my reaction at just seeing Tom and I’m ok with it." Here's what I suspect (because again, it's too common): You HALF fancy him and half needed something else to focus on. That's why in your drunken (i.e. non self-controlled & -contained) state thought, F**K-IT, I'LL TELL HIM. You were prepared to lose him (in the potential case of his not feeling the same way). Yet ANOTHER reason to take it slow (make sure it's the real feelings deal). Saying that, in such a situation any sane and sensible bloke would have presumed it were gratitude and relief talking and taken it with a pinch of salt (as in, tell me that when you're sober or not tensed-up and I'll believe you). But, I agree it sounds like you coped better than expected. Hardly surprising, though. That wasn't Tom, was it. The Tom YOU'RE grieving for was just an actor putting on a character and role....which got discarded a fair time ago, meaning, you were grieving while still in the relationship. PS: Why is it cringey to be honest with someone you know about how you feel? (Not a rhetorical question, please answer it.) ************ "His feelings are mutual but he’s not ready for a relationship yet and he wants to be friends for the moment, which is fine by me." HURRAH! MASSIVE GREEN FLAG!... if he proves it true through how he acts from here on in, of course. That is definitely "100% victim" talk. And this we need to know - even JUST for any present-future friends of yours. NO MORE NARCS, THIS IS A NARC-FREE ZONE. I can't tell you how lucky you are to have learned which animals in the jungle are lethal at such a 'start-out' age, when you consider how many men and women don't get to learn that horrid lesson until their forties and beyond! I won't say Tom did you a favour but Fate, using the fact of Tom, definitely did. Yup, it definitely likes you. And anyway, I also can't tell you how invaluable it is to have a male friend to study intently, as well as have fun times with. In fact, if I were you, I'd treat the friendship, and safe haven, as the star billing. (FYI, from now on, you're going to find yourself being naturally human-resourceful and open to candidates for the job of Replacement Dad, Age Immaterial. His offering to leave you free to imbue Dutch Courage (and, I now with this new light suspect, encourage you face your fear - not too much, just a bit) was definitely fatherly, don't you agree?) *********** "My dad sent me and sibs Xmas presents, which we have opened already just so we don’t have to do it on the day." What an incredibly canny and sensible move! Whose idea was it? (What were the gifts to each of you?) Oh, wait, you've just answered my question with another same example, LOL: "I talked to him and asked him if he could wait and see till maybe the new year, so that we can all have a nice Xmas, and don’t have to think/dwell or get into any discussions about him." " and I did notice that him and bro got on really well, they didn’t stop talking" Ahhh, your poor little brother. He is clearly desperate for a replacement, better/healthier Dadda, isn't he. (And why wouldn't he.) Do make sure he's aware your mum's just test-driving the man, won't you. He too needs to take any new relationships slowly... hold himself back, secretly inside, whilst keeping a very beady eye on the entire proceedings with his white coat and clipboard doing its stuff in the background. New mantra: Don't (just) tell me - SHOW ME! (- Eliza Doolittle). Or more simply: Oh yeah? NOW PROVE IT! PS: I haven't forgotten there are points above still to address. I definitely will, it's just a case of When at the mo (obviously).

PS: Oh, and before I forget: Wash your mouth out, young lady. Parentless my a*se. In case you hadn't noticed, you've long been adopted. By myself and Scopes. :-* (A)

Scopesie, Same question to you: https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/11376/How-Should-I-Stop-Stalking-My-Crush. If you're both free, I'll leave it to you two to sort out who gets the initiate the thread.

Soulmate, LILS Merry Christmas to you! I'm puzzling I've noticed a request to submit for cookies on this thread. I accidentally fat fingered the submit button. The link for how should I stop stalking my crush has been removed

Merry Christmas all! If you remove the rogue full stop from the end of the URL posted by Soulmate, the link will be valid ;-)

Merry Christmas :-) xx

Meg and cuz didn’t come because her mum was unhappy about her going out over the weekend before Xmas, and wanted her to go to church the next day, not looking hung over and tired, which is stupid because Meg hardly drinks anyway. She said it wasn’t worth going to then get the silent treatment and argue with her after :-/. I need to see her, she’s pretty unhappy being at home at the moment but says the book (on narcissistic mums) I gave her is helping and it’s like she could of written it herself or similar (y). I knew it. Mr Dishy’s reasoning to stay at the party was in case I saw Tom again another time. He seems to talk from experience, not that he’s told me about his ex. I’m sensing it a hard topic for him, but he said he wished he had a friend with him the first time he saw her after get broke up. He pointed out getting the first time of seeing Tom out of the way, was the best thing to do. Then if I saw him another time, not only would I probably be in a better place, I would be able to handle it with more confidence. The chances of bumping into Tom are quite small, but I could at another party (not that there are many) or in the uni holidays. It made sense and then we got to stay, so was all good in the end. It was cringy because I was drunk and I vaugely remember telling him how I feel and talking to him non stop on the way home, I’m sure he was just humouring me. I woke up in the morning thinking ‘sh*******t what did I say to him?’. And because he stayed over (spare room), he was obvs there the next morning, not like he went straight home tho, he happily stuck around. He’s sneaky tho, he snuck a Xmas present under tree, nice surprise. My mum liked him too. She said even though she used to go quite gooey with Tom, mr dishy seems more genuine. She also likes the fact hes nicely spoken. opening presents a couple of days before was my mums idea. We first did it for sis’s birthday coz she was anxious over what he had sent her. we decided it’s what we would do from now on. I got a voucher, bro got a camera, that was a bit random and sis got earrings ...even more weird coz she doesn’t have her ears piecred. It’s not like he doesn’t know because he threw a very memorable tantrum about how I got mine done too early (I was 10). it was all my mums fault and (apparently) I got ‘addicted’ to getting piercings. I didn’t, I just didn’t bother to ask his permission coz I knew he’d say no (6)...so he said he was going to be stricter with sis and she had to wait till she was 16 at least. she actually couldn’t care less. Anyway we gave earrings to a charity shop, bro thinks he can sell the camera and I thought it was only fair split my voucher sis when we’re next out together. My dad also came to the house on Boxing Day, twice, not that we were there, but it’s all on camera. My mum decided quite a long time ago we weren’t going to be home at Xmas and he doesn’t know where Aunties new home is thank god. I have now told bro that my mums mr dishy is just her testing him out. he didn’t seem too convinced because he said they hold hands and kiss. he told me it’s allowed because she was married to our dad for however many years...ok then...I stil worry about her rushing things. But I’ve also got to make sure I’m careful with my mr dishy too.

Bear with, Lils, be with you in a couple of days!

LILS and Soulmate HAPPY NEW YEAR! And let's hope this is a better year too. LILS how's things going with you and mr Dishy? Three hundred and sixty more days for me then I'm done with this work place

Hey scopes, happy new year :-D. Things are going good with mr dishy, still talking a lot. saw him on nye, he decided to have party with other uni ppl too...not just the two of us...We’re keeping things on a friends level. Then I got ill a stupid with virus that makes you sleep forever, and when you are awake you have no engery to do anything. Zzzzzzz. Enjoy your last 360something days at work :-p

Got an unexpected window, look! Yes, Happy New Humbug! (I just don't get NYE, sorry.. it's a man-made, or rather, contrived concept/don't get me started! ;-)) Scopes, are you retiring next year? I had that virus, Lils, but I had to grit my teeth and struggle through as I had just too much to do. PS: 361. (:-D) ***** Re Mr Dishy... I'm getting mixed signals, albeit it depends on precisely what the gift was? Do tell? By the way, you say he's a clam but in actual fact, that advise of his was highly revealing! His ex was obviously a real she-monster (and either worse than Tom or Dishy's particularly sensitive?). Can you not see it in what he advised for and against, as well as the fact he told you those things per se? Come on, Little Miss Psychoanalyst - have a bash and tell me what you find! It'll put hairs on your chest! (...er...lol) PS: There was nothing cringe-worthy, as he clearly loved hearing it! But I guess, so soon, it left you feeling vulnerable. Mind you, not half as vulnerability-inducing as 'dropping and running' that "well, ya have to, doncha, it's Christmas" (not) gift! He said the exact same as you, in fact. :-) That's nice, isn't it? :-) The pressure's off because the elephant's above the table and you now have a ready-and-waiting boyfriend for once you've both left Jitterville far behind you and can face the idea of putting your hearts on the line again. What's even nicer is knowing you're co-victims (albeit time will tell because obviously your Narcs are clever at the "me toos!"). I think he's fine, though. He knows too victim-much. PS: Is he an upgrade on Tom Thumb? ****** Re Mum and that very sensible and canny idea (which so smacked of 'you'): SHE'S BACK! :-) (Watch out, Dud.) I'm very impressed with your little sister, Lils. At her age, that's real strength! But anyway... Your present said 'can't be (much) arsed'; brother's said 'you're a bloke and that's about as much as I know about you'; poor little sister's said 'I've discarded you so now you and your 'non-present' become a tool (right now, to piss Mum off)'. I'm therefore very touched at your sharing gesture and hope that bro likewise splits his sale proceeds with her. Or maybe she'd like the camera? That'd piss Dud off, wouldn't it. In fact, there's an idea! Bro gets the voucher, sis gets the camera,...and you're not a kiddie any more, you prefer your gifts 'stubble-wrapped' LOL. ******* Did Mr Snoopy do just that - peer through all the windows? Or just knock then go?

Ugh it’s such a sh*tty virus, it seems to last ages. my mums mr dishy kids have the virus too and so I babysat them, so they could go out. His son is a bit annoying but daughter is sweet. It’s also interesting what lil kids tell you about their parents and what they pick up on! Mr dishy got me a game called Bananagrams, which family and I have been playing all Christmas was a hit. Quite addictive. I like it coz it’s quite relaxed and you can also play it on your own (y). Well, maybe, his advise reveals that he could be an anxious person, not that he's shown it (yet) and needs support from others sometimes. But he’s nice enough to support others too. socially he seems confident and interested in other people, I was watching him at Xmas party and nye party, and people seem to like him too, but possibly lacks in other areas. I’m guessing the break up with ex gf wasn’t good. Like you say, either she’s like a Tom or worse and was horrible to him or maybe she ended their relationship, he got hurt and it’s taking him longer to get over it. I think it’s more likely she’s monster girl version. I’m just hoping he’s not hugely insecure like Tom. Yep it is nice that both our feeling are out in the open, I’m more relaxed around him now. If my drunken anncounment had put him off he could of home early the next day after Xmas party. He seems to be pretty open and honest at the moment, I’m just going to wait and see what he tells me about ex gf. Sis does seem to like the camera and has started using it, so bro gets some of the Voucher. Yep my mum is back :-) auntie told me she’s noticed a huge change . she’s def more assertive, in the right way, and seems to be doing more confident things but I think her new job has helped with that too. Doorbell camera thing showed my dad came round twice that day, at different times just after midday and then later on and he hung around for the whole time it was recording, muttering to himself . Wouldn’t be surprised if he did peer in all the windows too. Clearly he had nothing else better to do over Xmas!

"Ugh it’s such a sh*tty virus, it seems to last ages." Yeah. Literally, in my case! (LOL, TMI?) Meant to say earlier: mum's moving a bit fast, isn't she? They're not even divorced yet! (Would she listen if you warned her?) I mean - holding hands and even kissing openly in front of your brother (and presumably sister and his own two)? Introducing each other's kids? Going away for weekends? Is that a test-drive or a supaglue-ing oneself to the front seat? Also this: "I think he is a victim too. I know his we ex wife is difficult and she causes a lot of problems. He has their kids most weekends because she doesn’t want to look after them :-/." That's not necessarily proof of victimhood because for all we know, he left ex-wife for too long starved of love, sex and affection,...in a right state of desperation, even to the point of it drowning out an urge as massive as the mothering instinct...or possibly her subconscious motivation to meet it (needs healing to be sped up (not) via a boyfriend so as to pump herself back up to normal functioning/standards). Hence, her now (theoretically) acting like it. ...A - cough! - bit like mum, lately, wouldn't you say? So - see how that can work? We weren't surface-thinking, were we, Miss Lily? LOL What's the matter - brain gone to loveheart shaped mush? :-D I'll let you off just this once. ;-) But, seriously. She's going too fast. Whereas, she'd heal a lot faster and more thoroughly if she stayed single and crossed her legs, and concentrated on building herself and her single world up again...to in a way reverse back to how she was before she and your dud met (more confident and sassy, I'll bet!) and get reacquainted so she can add her past self to all she knows today = automatic upgrade. So even if he's a normal, decent chap, she (and he) are failing to build a solid enough foundation for it to stand much chance at lasting (which we do all know, deep down)....in which case why complicate as well as start to cement the relationship via the premature, mutual family involvement? Methinks there's a symbiosis of cross-using going on, with actions intended to deny the fact. Not in a nasty way, but... there and elsewhere I see non-sensible choices that contradict one another. So - hmm... watch that space. And meanwhile, show her how it's supposed to be done, Lils. Looks like you're more intelligent and sensible than both your parents put together, doesn't it? Oh, well. As it should be. Bit early, but - there you go. That's how the broken cookie crumbles. ******** Back to Mr Dishy Junior: I won't say blokes aren't intimidate-able by women, but they usually cope with fronting it out. Plus, leaving that gift was a bold move (for a post-narc 'jitterer'). So, yup, I do reckon his monster's bigger than your monster, but... time will tell. "I’m just hoping he’s not hugely insecure like Tom." Me too, but if you were to get critically close prior to a critical degree of healing, you'd find - he is. THE DIFFERENCE IS, HOWEVER, THAT NORMAL-HEALTHIES COME DOWN AGAIN, BACK TO THEIR NORMAL SELVES... CERTAINLY WITHIN A YEAR (at your ages). Narcs obviously don't/won't/can't. They're pathologically insecure (at least)...PERMANENTLY in high DefCon and either can't break free of that, now, second-nature or enjoy that giant-sized-spoiled-insecure-baby-god-complex-cruel-obnoxious-bullying-a*sehole existence (and try saying that after 10 pints!). There's the subtle yet monumental diff that makes all the diff. So the moral of the story is: don't get too close to someone with copious injuries, many of them spewing toxic pus (because the weapon was septic); otherwise, you'll get covered in blood and stinky pus. (And residual slime, of course.) Ain't rocket science, is it, when you look at it straight like that, lol. Short version, come mantra: Don't hug near-fatally injured people because they startle too easily, injure too easily, wail and thrash/hit out a lot, and leak offensive pus. So might you at that kind of over-close-too-soon range. And so might mum and Dishy Senior (again, watch that space). ********* " and he hung around for the whole time it was recording, muttering to himself" LOL. But - IT'S CALLED A PHONE. Aka a bit of bloody respect (for a bloody change). He likes lying on the uncomfy beds he makes, doesn't he. ********* Voucher noted, well done. You having failed to tell me what the gift was, likewise noted (cough!). Seriously, though, I do need to know. It's an important reading.

I have been worrying my mum moving too quick with her mr dishy. They've been meeting up with kids, and going away since the middle/end of last year and obviously getting closer! They’ve used excuses like they've got the same memberships to the same places (what a coincidence), that the trips are far away, and educational for the kids too. I know my mum has been hiding this from me. I could talk to her but I’m not too sure she’d listen. There might be a good time soon. Mr dishy got me a game called Bananagrams, which family and I have been playing all Christmas was a hit. Quite addictive. I like it coz it’s quite relaxed and you can also play it a on your own (y). Took it to uni library too and people want to join in and play. Can’t help but feel that mr dishy had been keeping his distance from me now though, since back at uni, only been 5 days ... but he’s not really been that talkative this week or wanting to hang out much and it’s like he’s hiding away. We used to cook quite a lot together because he realised I can’t cook to save my life, but he’s not bothered with that either. I don’t know if I mind or not...II have been worrying my mum moving too quick with her mr dishy. Theyve been meeting up with kids, and going away since the middle/end of last year and obviously getting closer! They used excuses like theyve got the same memberships to the same places (what a coincidence), that the trips are far away, and educational for the kids too. I know my mum has been hiding this from me. I could talk to her but I’m not too sure she’d listen. There might be a good time soon. I did :-P - Mr dishy got me a game called Bananagrams, which family and I have been playing all Christmas was a hit. Quite addictive. I like it coz it’s quite relaxed and you can also play it a on your own (y). Can’t help but feel that mr dishy had been keeping his distance from me now though, since back at uni, only been 5 days ...but he’s kept himself to himself not really talking much and hiding away. Used to cook quite a lot together too but he’s not bothered. I’ve not really minded been going out with forgetful friend (yay she remembered. Think it’s because I’ve been quite strict with myself and telling myself we are just friends. Kinda wondering if he’s depressed or like I thought before quite anxious. Or both. Hmm we’ll see if he comes out of his shell again or I will ask. I have had other things on my mind too. Bro is adamant he’s seeing my dad this weekend there’s no changing his mind. After talking to him about it, he told me I can’t talk him about of it for a 3rd time, he’s just informing me he’s going. He’s talked sis into going too, and apparently, after talking to her, she has things she wants to say too. He won’t listen but I think they need to learn. I wasn’t going to go home this weekend but I feel like I can’t let them go alone, my mum isn't stepping in, neither is auntie, and they are both know. Kind of wish one of them would. I feel too protective not to go and I will just worry, so would rather be with them. I really, really don’t want to see my dad, and listen to his sh*t excuses, or let him even think he might have a future relationship with me. The only way I can see round it is meeting in public, in a cafe and I’m trying to decide do I sit far away but in sight? Or do I actually have to be there with them? ugh. One thing I’m not willing to do is drive them to his house, that feels like a trap, which I have told them. Hmm do we think lea is going to come back?

LILS sorry about being neglectful. I've been kinda stressed out with all that's going on. I know you're probably stressed out too with your mr Dishy and your mum's involvement with her mr Dishy.

Hey scopes, no problem hope you’re not too stressed out with what ever is going on for you. Yeah, My mr dishy is still being distant, but I’m just getting on with things. I see even more now why you should never rush into anything, especially after a break up. Just realised my last post might be a bit confusing, coz it’s got copied twice, sorry. If I have time later I will redo it so it makes sense !

Hi LILS I know seeing one parent or the other with someone else is a hard pill to swallow.

(Scopes: Especially when it's too soon, yes!) ****** Lils, Have to be a short one this week, sorry. Really up against it and playing serious catch-up, thanks to having had one bug after another, recently. Winter as usual... Well, mum's and his excuses are so ridiculous they're laughable...e.g., what's she suggesting? That if I joined the National Trust, it would require me to kiss and cuddle some or other member? ...Even if it weren't a strangely, highly convenient coincidence, like you say. "I know my mum has been hiding this from me. I could talk to her but I’m not too sure she’d listen." Yeah, I'm not surprised. And I agree. She knows your head's screwed on right and she wouldn't want to hear the sensible truth for fear it just might work to stop her. Well, since you're obviously her Jimminy Cricket, I think you'd have full rights to start calling her Pinocchio! "There might be a good time soon." Ha-ha - that's called an Ambush, isn't it? ********* "I did :-P - Mr dishy got me a game called Bananagrams" Oh, I'm sorry - I thought you meant Mr Dishy *Senior*! (I think, to save any more confusion, we're going to have to re-name the older puppy. Want to think of something?) Oh, okay - Bananagrams! Yep, that says Friends. *However*... if he thought he was being clever...? Nope. Because *the fact still remains*: he took the time and trouble to think of an appropriate as well as suitable gift, go get it, pay for it, bring it home, wrap it ("aargh, stupid paper!")...and carry it on him or sit on his hands all night... and then made a huge song-and-dance, out of (- ironically, considering he was trying to play it down) what merely appeared, by its nature, to be a not-so-huge thing. Aww...*Fail*. LOL Nah, it's a mixed message really, albeit loaded on one side: deep down he's raring to go, 'up top' where fears live, he's kacking his pants. Hardly headline news, t'is what I'd have expected... still, it's good to check ...quick frisk.....you never know, and all that... :-) ********** Yes, I agree, he could have found Christmas quite triggering, even if over her per se - because there's still the loss of 'wasted time' and all that to get over, and the reminder of all the pain, heartache and uncharacteristic over-vulnerability. There again, he could have had this tummy bug. I know I didn't feel like cooking or eating? Need more data. This could be more data, however: Could be you're fairly relaxed about it, to the point of capable of going out with your friend, because of you sensing it actually isn't anything personal? Would you, hand-on-heart, say Yes or No to that? *********** *sigh* I suppose bro's gotta do what bro's gotta do? Maybe he NEEDS a "final insult"? As for listening: sometimes it's that the victim needs to hear themselves giving their past bully a piece of their mind - for their own sake ("aaaand another thing!..."). Or - past tense since the weekend's happened already? How did it turn out? Well done for having chaperoned, by the way - good on ya! And I'd have agreed with somewhere neutral. PS: Lea: hmm, not sure. She did warn us she'd be super-busy? Will just have to wait and see, I guess.

Time told. :-) Follow moi... https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/11241/Lonely

Will call him Teacher Friend. So sis told me his kids sometime sleep in my room at the weekends :-|. I thought she was taking advantage and using my room too, so asked her but she’s not guilty! I’m trying to decide how annoyed I am at this, and how much of a big deal it is. I’m think I’m more angry at the fact things are being kept from me. Think there is a conversation to be had with my mum about this coz I think it’s why she doesn't want me home sometimes. There prob a laughable reason for this too. there is the spare room and if Teacher Friend uses it then there’s the sofa bed downstairs. At the moment though I’m staying away from home, maybe until my mum starts to wonder why. Small moan over. But it’s fine at uni, I’m starting to want to stay away for longer now. Social life seems to be getting better and busier. Mr dishy is back :-). I did text him to see if he was ok and he had been ill, I think I gave him my bug, sharing is caring :-D. Yeah, I would say, I did know there was nothing personal and that’s why I was quite relaxed about it. He’s slowly opening up about ex gf too. He told me she contacted him over the Xmas holidays, apprently she does this on significant dates to them. But this time was the first time he ignored her, where as in the past he would respond and they’d start talking and she’d make out that she misses him, but then she’s cut off all contact with him. Ugh. With my dad it went how I thought it would. We did meet in public, in a cafe. I was going to sit away but once I was there I realised I couldn’t leave bro and sis on their own with him. So I made it clear to him I was only there for bro and sis, and I might as well of been speaking in another language because he ignored me and asked about uni and that he knows Tom and I broke up. I knew he wanted a reaction so I just ignored him. Apprently I was being really childish. Oh well... Sis lasted about five minutes before she got annoyed with him and moved away. Bro had written out a list of everything my dad has said and done to him. I didn’t know bro had done this but knew he was going to be disappointed. He Tried to get my dad to acknowledge and talk about it but my dad wouldn’t and he told bro he had made most of it up,and with the things that were true he either deserved it or he was only trying to help and he sarcastically apologised. I felt really sorry for bro. It ended badly with my dad walking out of the cafe. Byeeeee. Don’t think we’ll be seeing him for a while :-). Been keeping an eye on bro (and sis, but she seems ok) since and he said hes now realised it was a waste of time and my dad was never going to admit anything.

I'll call him 'Teach' if that's alright? It's faster. ********** Wny use 'sign-language' with your Mum, why not just gently talk to her about it? On the phone would work? I'm sure- no, actually, I *KNOW* it's nothing personal, Lils. This woman's been seriously starved...of feeling like a desirable, SANE, full-of vitality woman (with an exciting reason to get out of bed in the morning). She's trying to pump herself back up in record time as a means to emotional survival. She's doing it the exact wrong way, of course. But that's what she thinks she's doing (if she's even thinking, of course?). She should have spent more time getting more deeply bonded to you 'kids' (Salvation Through Your Kids, it's called), to where she would and should have been by now, had she not been married to a man who more often than not behaved like a (literally) time-consuming, very high-maintenance a-hole. 'Evil' Pac-Man. But if you've never experienced that depth of closeness with your kids, how are you to know it exists or that it's a fantastic recovery medicine? You resort to what you know (being in-lust or in-love makes me feel amazing, and a co-victim isn't scary!). And because you don't want that 'confidence topping-up' fuel to turn negative at all, you try to make a meal of any ways in which you're most compatible - this case, 1 parent 2 kids with 1 parent 2 kids = perfect match. You're a teenager-come-adult. Where are YOU going to be when bro and sis and his two, because they're still kids more than not, make a beeline for all the playground equipment and mum and Teach want to sit up-close on the bench, holding hands and coo-ing? Third wheel, anyone? This isn't conscious. Nor deliberate. It's just the trap very starved survivors fall into because it at first presents as the path of least resistance (nope). She's just starving hungry and he and the relationship are a banquet. She's probably not thinking about ANYTHING, let alone anyone. Too busy replenishing. If she's neglecting you due to, not him, but, HAVING A RELATIONSHIP SO SOON, then your sense of offense is proof positive that she's not qualified to multitask parenthood with romance (AND grieving AND a pending divorce AND a bit of a reactive mid-life-crisis). Because when you are (which means healed - or never getting harmed to begin with), you can do BOTH relationship roles....LIKE A PRO! Nobody feels neglected. Not even you yourself. So on your mum's part, the giant oversight-making is accidental. And this diverted attention situation won't last, Lily. This is a Rebound relationship-come-Co-Victim buddying-up exercise, that much is glaringly obvious - just by the mere fact that she isn't even divorced yet (let alone that we have so much more to go on)! But so what if it's just diverted thoughts and lack of proper attention? Hurts, hurts. At any age. However, adults, when hurt, tend to advocate and stand up for themselves. I know.... Cringey, isn't it? ;-) The good news and deeper meaning to all this, is: you've just joined a new Uni of Life class, Lily! :-) How to approach an adult with a problem that feels ultra-personal and has wounded you quite deeply, like a reasonable adult in tight control of her knee-jerk instincts to either lash out or (you) go hide behind the shed, looking for a mutually happy solution. Oooh, scary! Well, daunting, anyway. It's not, actually. Things are too rarely anything like we imagine them, or as big or bad. It'll no doubt be - a harmonious outcome, yes, but, still a bit of an anti-climax, nowhere NEAR as "hassle-y", and you left wondering what you'd been so worried about. Try to tell her in a "Mr Spock feeling a bit sad" way. It's the least threatening (she's still DefCon-ed enough that she potentially could over-react some, no matter that she's switched the DefCon high to the positive setting). Practise on me, if you like? I don't ever advise a script, of course, and it'll come out somewhat differently on the day, but - just the gist. Why it hurts and why it feels a bit threatening and confusing. I'll put my "still-sore-and-tender Mum Cap on"...see where I over-react or take something the wrong way. If you want to. Parents really step up when you do that, Lily - approach them with aplomb. It wakes them up to how old and how mature you are. Because, of course, with all that marital sh*t to constantly dodge, they're not really noticing and marking the years. So your mature approach shocks them back into the present day programme on that score (which is good because it 'separates' you to Two Equal Adults distance where she realises you're New You and need getting to know again, to a degree). Babies, kids, young adults... it's ALWAYS the kid suddenly doing something new and the parent having to scrap the old schedule and re-write a new one. Always. That's why it's so exhausting being a parent. You never know which height is up and you're always having to switch tracks with too little notice. Add a very distracting pr*ck on top and - voila. So trigger it. Show her Lily the grown-up lady. She's unthinkingly, in the midst of her confidence boost 'orgy', treating you like a kid who has no choice and no say again. So trigger it and, basically, she should be incapable of taking you for granted and start to treat you more and more like she would a special guest. However, that's not to say that adults ever stop being daughters. So I get completely why you feel so wounded YET feeling like you oughtn't to be. Well, you ought. Your reactions aren't the wrong bit. Your mum HAS been insensitive about this. Because she's not looking and not thinking. Too busy and eating and drinking. Your dad really gave her a rough ride, Lils. I so hope Teach isn't just a Slightly Lesser A-Hole. Or I hope she doesn't get invested enough in him to be hurt-able or certaintly not to any meaningful degree. Either/or. But anyway. The bottom-line point of what I'm saying, and which as a survivor, you won't have thought of yet, is this: You can continue creating an independent life and social scene for yourself ***AND*** not be left to feel somewhat over-looked and/or pushed out of the family unit. But only if you ask the person responsible for making you feel you can't, to please stop...or to be kind and sensitive enough to go a little more at your own pace so that it doesn't smart so much. That's adulthood for you. Sorry - HEALTHY adulthood for you! You find a way to have both. Because they're both *rights*. You don't have to choose between rights, Lils. Rights iz rights. Including pretty-much consistently having your needs and feelings considered by your Mum. No matter where you are the in world. And she needs to slow down anyway. Rushing is WHY she's not only stepping on toes as she goes, but doesn't even realise they're toes. *********** "Mr dishy is back :-)." Good stuff. "I did text him to see if he was ok and he had been ill, I think I gave him my bug, sharing is caring :-D." Oh...? How did you manage that, then, pray tell?? ************ "He’s slowly opening up about ex gf too. He told me she contacted him over the Xmas holidays, apprently she does this on significant dates to them. But this time was the first time he ignored her, where as in the past he would respond and they’d start talking and she’d make out that she misses him, but then she’s cut off all contact with him." I'm a bit dubious about what happened here. If contact from her had been so without-consequence then why the need to mention it to you? Did you bring up the topic of exes who make unwanted contact and then he confessed what had occurred? I mean, if the conversation at that point had been conducted along the lines of the co-victim friendship aspect, both co-victims comparing notes, then fair enough. What triggered that topic, Lils? Try to remember. I only ask because - he knows you're interested in him as much as he is, you. So it's NOT strictly "mere friendship", is it. Therefore a greater sensitivity is required toward the 'potential future lovers' aspect with its more exposed sensitivities. Stands to reason, right? And did the 'potential future girlfriend' in you WANT or FEEL A NEED to know that his ex won't stay away, especially on - potentially - all future occasions? I mean - these giant a-holes are persistent, are they not? Just ONE "face-bovvered!" isn't USUALLY enough to send them back into the woodwork, is it. So - question: did you tell him about Tom's friend? And before he told you about his ex? Or, even if you hadn't - "am I being too sensitive"? Depends on how kindly and respectfully you want to behave towards people, doesn't it, really. Which always depends on how you yourself expect to be treated. It's you 'showing them how'. Is he 'not thinking' - because he was just too proud of himself and his resolve this time round, and bursting to tell someone who'd get it? Or is that a subtle means to crank up your interested-ness, Lils? Or however-much of BOTH? It's not ominous or anything - on its own, I mean, so no need to sound any alarms. But I think it does indicate he's either knowingly or unwittingly trying to hurry that side of things up a little. Maybe he thinks a relationship would be some kind of amazing, insta-ointment as well? It's tricky, you see, trying to do two distinctly different roles simultaneously with the one person. Because even at the best of times, each role comes with 'an agenda'. You don't have a friend. Neither do you have a boyfriend. You have a Boyfriendfriend-stroke-Friendboyfriend-stroke-co-survivor-stroke-mutual-therapist-figure. You like a challenge, doncha, Lils? LOL ********** Anyway - it was Both. He was ill *and* seriously thrown off-balance! Other way round, actually: he was so seriously knocked for six he fell ill. But - crikey, she really CAN - MAJORLY - knock him for six, can't she?! Yup. BIG she-monster. Or he is (while playing victim) and the truth is, whenever she contacts she's actually uncontrollably responding to subtle but effective provocation/antagonism-type manipulation. WE DON'T KNOW YET. We're still at the start of the test-drive, eh. :-) You're in your Mum's boat, Lils, I reckon. Lover(ish) & Friend & (Presumed) Co-Victim. I doubt you'll get as quickly and easily drawn in thus distracted, though. You've clearly been doing a lot more studying and paying attention than Mum, I reckon. Plus I'm going to be helping you intermittently frisk him - like I've just done! :-) *********** Of COURSE he ignored you, Lils. HE KNOWS BEST! We *accept* that he knows best because the proof is contained in his smooth-running life-...OH! Well, we'll just ignore that massive contradiction, sticking out like a sore thumb. Like he always does. Ugh, indeed. Do I take it you've started finding him TEDIOUS these days? But - to the details: 1. "and that he knows Tom and I broke up" Oh that's nice. Your first meet-up in a very long time and he decides, that, rather than respectfully and kind-heartedly and caringly waiting for you to signal you're okay to talk about it, he's going to PICK AT YOUR SCAB. It's a Classic move in a classic situation, Lils. They might as well just ask, 'How's your nightmare going?'. By it's timing, it strikes me as petty revenge for your 'I'm here for them' comment. But whether or not you showed him a reaction wouldn't have mattered as much as just scoring a point off of you. " I knew he wanted a reaction so I just ignored him. Apprently I was being really childish. Oh well..." Yes, only HE'S allowed to be childish. But when he does it, it's not considered childish, it's considered justified as well as necessary. It's always-always different for them, Lily. Spoiled, mean little kids that they are. *********** "Sis lasted about five minutes before she got annoyed with him and moved away." Excellent reaction. Efficient avoidance of potential infection by identified contagion.# *********** "Bro had written out a list of everything my dad has said and done to him. I didn’t know bro had done this but knew he was going to be disappointed. He Tried to get my dad to acknowledge and talk about it but my dad wouldn’t and he told bro he had made most of it up,and with the things that were true he either deserved it or he was only trying to help and he sarcastically apologised. I felt really sorry for bro. It ended badly with my dad walking out of the cafe. Byeeeee. Don’t think we’ll be seeing him for a while :-)." So Dud behaved true to type the entire time, then. That'll be because he USED to be able to 'take all three of you on' and has assumed he still can. Because - what would have changed? Change - what's that when it's at home? HE'S the same (worst luck!), so why wouldn't you three be? Well, gosh, I reckon he must have felt very,...ow yoou say - disenfranchised. Cor, pretty soon all three of you are, in terms of Narcy Num-Nums, going to become USELESS, Lils! And that's fine if, like you, you're ready to 'bury your father', if not the man. But not so fine if you're your kid bro and blis. Blis is psychologically ready in one way (proven by her acted-out Ugh!) but not in another. She's very young to lose her (imagined) father. Whereas bro will have been putting grieving on hold while formulating then awaiting his 'day in court' for the purposes of seeing justice done. If you can't have love, you can at least have justice, you tend to think. Until you realise that's not possible, either. At which point you feel you've lost on every level. Until you realise that losing a piece of constantly reeking sh*t from constantly on your shoes is hardly any loss. But, meantime, he'll have blis's problem *and* held-back grieving. He'll either slink quietly to behind the shed at the bottom of the garden or suffer an episode of bouncing off the walls. So your instinct to be vigilant is spot-on, well done again. Because - never mind what his Mr Spock says he realises. It tends to be our Cap'n Kirk's reaction that we need worry most about. So let's see what he says. Meant to ask: Did it help when I pointed out that your Mum had actually all along been your Dad too? If so, might it work on those two? Or do you suppose it might not if she's as somewhat away with the fairies at this point as she seems?

Ah, yeah, Teach is a lot better and quicker! Sis took the situation into her own hands and told my mum what she told me about Teaches kids using my room. She didn’t like being accused of something she didn’t do as wanted to put it right! So then, my mum called me and apologised and we did talk too about her beings more honest with me and not keeping things from me. So all good there. My mum seemed a bit down on the phone coz Teach has got a new job where he will have to work some Saturdays, so she’s worried she won’t see him as much. I think it’s actually quite a good thing, not that I said that to her, but I think it will make her pay more attention to bro and sis and it would be nice if she came and visited me. Bro and sis have also told me they don’t really enjoy going out to wherever they go to, or playing with his kids coz they are quite a bit younger (under 10). Yeah, the more I read, the more I kind of understand what my dad has put my mum through so I try to be a bit more forgiving. And there are still times where I do see the ‘real her’ coming through, I think she’ll get there. ************* Dishy didn’t start talking about ex gf randomly, we were talking about ex at the time . I have told him about Tom and his friend too, so he probably feels like he can talk to me about it. I have also been enlightening him a bit about narcissism too so he might be slowly putting things together. His ex gf does sound a bit of a She Monster if she has that much of an effect on him :-/ but he hasn’t really said much more. Talking of Tom, Auntie had the pleasure of bumping into him recently and he apparently bounced over to her, all friendly and started talking to her. He told her he misses me and has been hoping to see me. Ugh. Auntie told him that was highly unlikely that was going to see me, he should of treated me better and she then told him to b*gger off, ha. She did say she wasn’t feeling well at the time, so was probably a bit too harsh on him, but I don’t think so, I think it was well deserved :-) (y) . He was probably shocked at her response coz they got on really well when we were together. *********** Yeah, I do find my dad tedious. I almost couldn’t stand the sight of him, when we did see him. I don’t like calling him ‘dad’ either coz he’s not, I’ve kind of written him off. Yep, it did really help when you told me my mum has been my mum and dad because I can see it (now). I will try to explain that to sibs coz I think they will understand, even if they do think she’s away with the fairies sometimes. Bro seems to want to talk at the moment, which is good but it does seem like he’s stuck on just being angry. Sis has had a few panic attacks since seeing my dad and her way of coping is to call my mum or me. So I’ve had quite a few missed calls from her and texts, which is a bit worrying if I can’t answer straight away! I do understand though coz I remember feel quite anxious and panicky a few times in the beginning so will to find some other ways to help her keep calm.

He "Tom" bounced over to her "auntie " :-* (A) Maybe Dishy could introduce his ex (she monster)to Tom.

Pardon the imogi I fat fingered the wrong one

Scopes, "Maybe Dishy could introduce his ex (she monster)to Tom." [insert mischievious cackle] More like that one, please, Bartender! Can you imagine, though? Can ya? LOL - I can.

Lils, in case you didn't see my joint message on Lea's thread - I'll be with you tomorrow night, failing that, Fri daytime, failing that (- doubt it), Saturday.

Ok :-) Ooooo scopes there’s idea... I managed to break my hand, by whacking it on a ticket barrier , it was a bit of a strange accident and happened really quickly for me to actually take it in ...so I’m probably gonna have to set aside a whole morning or afternoon to reply anyways and why I havent replied to lea straight away. everything takes soo much longer.

Oooooo LILS sorry to hear about the mishap. Be careful ewt thar!

Lils, I'll still post my response, but, don't worry about replying at the mo if you're in pain and need to rest it. No need to struggle with one hand on our account. PS: Ouch! Are you remembering the bag of frozen peas and the ibuprofen to take the swelling down? ******** I'm glad the heart-to-heart worked with mum and that blister put her straight. But I smell a Red Flag from Teach. After all, you don't heat someone up, to the degree of too little self-restraint in front of the kids, only to then suddenly start "having to" sidle away, do you? What (healthy) would be the point? If for whatever reason you're no longer placed to be capable of being someone's boyfriend (verb), to a universally acceptable degree or at least, not dropping the prior standard, rather than to Casual status, then the decent thing is to resign, not declare a Crumbs From Now On Situation (unscheduled at that) as if you expect it to be automatically accepted to the other partner as the new status quo. And - some Saturdays, huh? Not just longer weekday hours? What a convenient day... prime dating day and evening, no less. "Things that make you go, Hmmmm...". I mean, it takes a while to decide to change your place of employment, then actually apply, then (etc., etc.), doesn't it? Two months on average, isn't it?... possibly longer? So why no notice? (If she'd had that, she wouldn't be as down as she apparently is, i.e. wouldn't still be...think about it.) I doubt his bosses landed the idea on him all 'last minute', do you? So he's presumably known about it for a while? And anyway, how does that affect his kiddie custody? HMMMM... I smell a rat. Potentially. I smell, 'Right, that's you nicely hooked to point of only painful return. Time to on-the-quiet go heat me up another!'. Do you? Were it me, I wouldn't tolerate such a giant liberty-taking as this...his expecting me to accept a 50% demotion when we haven't even completed the trial period. Different if you've been married for years, done the Honeymoon in full already. Nah. I'd dump. Same as I would anyone who started turning up for work only half the time. Constructive Self-Dismissal. But I agree it could be a blessing in disguise....including for *present*-day her if my roused suspicion the minute I read that sentence is correct; the very last thing she needs at this broad juncture is to find out her new 'love' began secretly two-timing her. By deliberation. I've seen this "oh...oh...suddenly got to start working Saturdays!" line before, you see. Too many times. Be that within their existing company or because THEY DECIDED WITHOUT MENTION to start the process of changing jobs. Irrespective of brave faces - I doubt very much that she's A BIT down, Lils. And that's what happens when you come out of a fauxlationship that re-conditioned you to tolerate myriad varieties of sh*tty moves and behaviours, including expecting you to be happy and not complain at being given only crumbs/a premature demotion (or demotion at all!). Narcs CAN TELL you're going to be like that - that's part of their insanely uncanny (yet insanely counter-productive in terms of whyfore) reading ability. Fact is, she's not been dating him for that long and already he's beginning to mess her around. End Of. Because it doesn't bode well, whatever the specific aetiology. Dump. And then get back to what she was supposed to be doing: healing, including through re-focusing and re-strengthening her little family. Anyway, what about Auntie? She's single, isn't she? But I do suspect that somewhere in her reasons for 'grabbing a man' was the fact that you were leaving home (talk about activate programme 'I'm headed at high speed for ending up completely on my own!'). My advice is to pad his gap *immediately* thus seamlessly before she even has a chance to properly feel it, by making a date for all four of you (or five if bro wants gf along?...or 6 with Auntie?...cuz as well?) next Saturday or the one after. Say, cinema/10-pin bowling followed by pizza/indian restaurant. Family Night Out. You should be having those fairly regularly, anyway, as a normal family. When WAS the last time you guys had one? ************ Yeah, she'll get there, that's obvious already, no worries. It's not going to be smooth and painless, though. UNLESS SHE FOCUSES BACK ON HER CLOSEST ALLIES, those people she imperatively trusts (- that's top-class Recovery Balm and no messing!). ************* Okay, noted that you were talking as co-victims when he told you about the pesky ex, and that it was a quid pro quo. Just good to frisk. "I have also been enlightening him a bit about narcissism too so he might be slowly putting things together." Or quickly? Tip: ask him to send you links of any of the online articles/vids he's so far read - or, if he can't quite remember, to name any of the writers/You-Tubers, 'because you want to send him some but obviously don't want to waste time duplicating'. (Just another quick frisking exercise. ;-) As you yourself doubtless know, true victims, if you give them a 'morsel', start tucking in to the whole 10 courses like there's no tomorrow so tend to be able to remember at least one of the experts' names, Big Fat Eh.) ************* LOL - Rah-Rah Auntie (yet again)! Quite right too! She thought he were kind and decent (hence WHY got on really well with him); found out he's not... Why WOULD any loyal aunt want to chat amiably with a slimy ex?! (Over-Entitled Alert, Part (whatever)! Plus, FYI - it was a temperature test, just via Auntie.) What a d*ck. *********** "Yeah, I do find my dad tedious." Me too. I find them ALL tedious. "I almost couldn’t stand the sight of him" That one, I don't have to suffer. Tell me, does he strike as ugly to you now? "I’ve kind of written him off." Let's be honest - there was nothing TO write off, really, was there. Unbenkownst to you until increasingly lately. "Yep, it did really help when you told me my mum has been my mum and dad because I can see it (now). I will try to explain that to sibs coz I think they will understand, even if they do think she’s away with the fairies sometimes." Yeah, they will. "Bro seems to want to talk at the moment, which is good but it does seem like he’s stuck on just being angry." Good. He's not stuck, though, Lils. It's just, where you and sis have a bucketful, he has a barrel-full. After all, your dad, despite did many bad things, didn't ever ruin your Christmas and all Christmases thereafter ("brace-brace-brace!"), did he? If he'd go to that sadistic degree of cruelty in front of you all, what the hell degree would he, were it just he and brother? "Sis has had a few panic attacks since seeing my dad and her way of coping is to call my mum or me." Very sensible and self-helpfully resourceful of her. :-) "So I’ve had quite a few missed calls from her and texts, which is a bit worrying if I can’t answer straight away!" Just reassure her that it doesn't mean you're ignoring her or not checking for her. Bit like I've been having to do with you since I got busier, yes? "I do understand though coz I remember feel quite anxious and panicky a few times in the beginning so will to find some other ways to help her keep calm." You could text her a Hello and 'this is when I'll be free' every morning? PS: A single sentence, full of typos, will do - if you insist on replying, I mean. :-)

Yep, been taking lots of ibuprofen coz it aches quite a lot sometimes, even tho hand is set in a lovely purple, itchy cast. Just five more weeks . It Was ouch! I heard a little ‘snap’ sound when I did it, but I stupidly ignored it...and dishy when he said to go get it xrayed, and then the next morning when my hand /arm had doubled in size and I couldn’t hold anything and it felt quite numb :-/ . Oops. Dishy went to a&e with me and has been helpful since, not overly so that it’s annoying, just offering the right amount of help. I’ve seen dishy rescearching narcissism on internet and stuff but I will still ask him to do what you suggested. I’m still making sure he’s normal. Uni people/friends have caught on to the fact that we like each other and are now asking questions or why aren’t we dating and Valentine’s Day isn’t far. But I won’t be pressured :p. It didn’t sound right when my mum told me about teachs new job . shes is already questioning her relationship with him. She said the other day it’s reminds her a bit of what my dad did, which makes her really cautious coz it makes her wonder if Teach has got similar charactisitics, and she’s not even sure if she should be in a relationship. So I reckon she’ll dump him soon, if she hasn’t already. She seems to be waking up a bit again. Yep as far as I know Aunty is single and I’m liking the idea of family night out out will get that organised. Ugly is a good word, he even looks ugly and everything about him is ugly. I think I could say the same about Tom too.

Purple? And did they give you a lollypop? :-D Nice to hear Dishy had your back (tick!) and that you don't feel it goes as far as to represent love-bombing (tick!). "I’ve seen dishy rescearching narcissism on internet and stuff but I will still ask him to do what you suggested. I’m still making sure he’s normal." That's canny thinking (tick! for you too :-)). "Uni people/friends have caught on to the fact that we like each other and are now asking questions or why aren’t we dating...But I won’t be pressured :p." Good on ya. In fact, all you need say (to shut them up) is something like: We're both at a point in our lives of needing to focus on ourselves, forge good friendships, prepare for our future careers ...basically - get all our ducks in a row. Work first, THEN play. Or have fun with it and say (all ham-melodramatically): 'Because I've been waiting all this time for YOU to finally tell me you can't live without me! What are you - blind?! And - worst of all - here you are, meanwhile trying to fix me up with someone else?! Oh, the heartbreak, the cruelty, I can't take it!................ Next question?'. :-D That should do it. ***** " it’s reminds her a bit of what my dad did" Excellent. I'm so glad your Mum's recognising the Red Flags. 'A bit'? Oh, I'd go further than that. Sounds like she's waking up remarkably speedily, in fact. Maybe all she was really after was a quick burst of ego ointment and 'how's yer father'? I.e. a quick stepping stone? Certainly, this statement of hers would suggest so: "and she’s not even sure if she should be in a relationship." Sounds like in her mind he's half-dumped already. BTW, ignore the 10 pin idea, I wasn't thinking (doh!). Maybe just cinema and meal? Unless it's not your predominant hand? ***** Here's a question for ya: which out of the two is ugliest?

Sorry - should have expounded. That's canny thinking because - [1] yes, it could have been all for show, just for your benefit ("I am a co-victim, really I am - look!"). [2] You do the full list of safety checks for the full check duration, NO MATTER WHAT. And that includes even if the bloke (or woman) seems repeatedly clean. The test-drive takes two whole years. Minimum. To give every climate, condition and situation both positive and however much calamitous a chance to exert its influence or pressure in order to SQUEEZE out those true colours. (Or 'poo' colours - LOL, whichever.)

...Here you go - let's sing it together: And I see your POO...CO-O-LOURS...climbing through I see your POO....CO-O-LOURS That's WHY I'M A-BO...VE YOU YOUR MORALS ARE FRAYED! You're a...giant Ho... Your poo....co-lours Poo co-o-lours Are "HUUUGHY"-ful".... Like a rai-ai-ain-bow. Teach it to your family in case he whoops!-bumps into any of them as well. :-)

PS: And sing it with the same cutesy voice as Cindy Lauper as well... works even better. (LOL LOL LOL)

Actually - edit: Sliming through. (Yep, that's better.)

(Just bumping your thread up to keep it alive while you rest your wrist, Lils, no need to respond.)

Would you help pay for my income tax expense?

Who?, Que?, What?

Soulmate some chap obviously retracted his ad from London offering employment opportunities on LILS thread. I'm not sure if you saw that but I was just being a smart alec. However I am very disgruntled about our new tax bill. Something about building a wall?

OHHH - Berry01! No, I didn't get to see, as in read it. Another mod had deleted him ("Zap!"), but I get it now. Sorry, I'm a bit slow this week (too much on). I suspect Trump's as hell-bent as he is for the simple reason that, while other toddlers were stacking building-blocks, all he had to play with was a calculator. :-p What? It fits, doesn't it? LOL

PS: DT is *such* a prize Narc! Benign only (means well - until the inevitable point where mal-programming plus the pull of his constantly starving-hungry ego spoils it all), but even a benign is going to create havoc if one is foolish to enough to put something majorly important that millions care about into his or her childish, foolish hands. Because they disregard the responsibility aspect of power and instead treat it, whatever it is, like a flippin' toy. And your Putins know that. Because they're psychos. They don't give a flying duck for ego-boosts (they actually *do* think they're God's gift) and, as such, can too easily harness, control and outright puppeteer the silly-grade Narc through constant flattery and dangled carrots.... and we see that for ourselves in the fact that the guy would rather look constantly ludicrous than bald! He'll be secretly on Putin's payroll, no doubt.... feathering his future retirement nest. It's like Stalin and his puppet Mao all over again. Capitalist version. Sick idiots (don't get me started). PS: What's he going to do when even the comb-over hair falls out? Grow his pubes instead and comb upwards? :-D

...HAHA! 'Behind the Iron Curtain' versus 'Behind the Curly Fur Curtain'! (Just made meself laff!)

...It's Melania I feel sorry for. She has to sleep with that! Can you imagine?!

No, no lolly pop :-( think they should tho, adults need lolly pops too!! Ewww! Everything about DT annoys me, including his stupid hair piece thing. Really don’t want to imagine ...ewwww and he has kids too, poor them! Hmm, not a lot really to report at the moment. Family night out happened was fun. My mum was very quiet about Teach and didn’t mention him at all. Bro and sis seemed to have swapped personalities bro was very outgoing and sis was very quiet and bit sulky. Dishy still seems to be normal. We seem to hang out with our own friends, do our own thing, then get together. I met his brother and his gf, this wasn’t planned, I did bump into them whilst out. Then it kinda turned into what felt like a double date to me, coz we went out for drinks and I don’t think I should of done that....Anyway Not sure if dishy felt the same i might be overthinking. it’s me, I get more open and confident about my feelings towards him when I’m drunk :-/ . I’d say Tom is more ugly coz he was the most disappointing in the end with my dad I always new something was different about him. But both him and my dad are similar in (now I realise, they are in a lot of ways) that they loved posing in front of mirrors. Tom is now working in a supermarket after droppping out of uni, unfortunately I saw him but didn’t have to speak to him, thank god, I didn’t like just seeing him. I will be avoiding that place from now on! This means he’s now local when I’m home ugh great. Ah and letting sis know by text when I’m free in the day seems to be really working (y).

Good, positive post! (And, yes they do!) 1. What was up with Sis - did you find out? Glad your reassurances are doing the trick. (Once or as you can tell she's recovering, just gently wean her almost imperceptibly down so she doesn't get addicted. Doubt you'll even have to, though; reckon she'll 'just forget' more and more often and settle to a plateau.) 2. I know exactly what you mean about Tom. He did a really good acting job, even IF you'd been down or distracted at the time of meeting or starting to fall for him. Not only that, but the depths to which he descended (/unmasked) were shocking! Talk about Jekyll & Hyde?! I mean, given yours or anyone's 'naked' sensitivity at that bonded stage - he didn't just behave badly, he behaved atrociously!...*So* contemptuous and sadistic. Bleugh. Well, the GOOD news is... You took on two, practically at-once there, oh fiercesome She-warrior Narc-blocker/slayer. :-) (Here - sciency researchy question: did you by any chance happen to grow up watching something like Xena Warrior Princess, regardless of whether first-hand or simply aware of it going on regularly in the background, e.g. something little sis watched? It's a long-shot but you never know, cultural influences being so powerful and all that?) 4. Aw, poor mum. Still, I'm glad you all enjoyed it. (Enough that it'll become a regular event?) 5. LOL: " I get more open and confident about my feelings towards him when I’m drunk :-/" Well, not to worry. I know an utterly genius, really "outside the box", p*ss-easy solution for that. Guess what it is - go on? That's right: Then don't get drunk! :-D I wouldn't worry about the 'double date', though. Really, if you think about it, every single get-together of yours is a date, anyway, just secretly. Whether you're secretly dating - or 'pre-dating' - isn't a problem in itself. Because you are both very young and rampant, let's not forget (LOL)... that's a lot of urge to repress. What matters is the mechanism by which to meanwhile keep him positioned, for as long as acceptably possible, at arm's length, outside of your current *and* habitual 'range of potential injury'. "Just Good Friends" also comes with inbuilt rules and regulations. So that's - "Rule Book sez Nao! :-p" and "And anyway, there's no point because no way can you reach me from there". He can LOOK, but he can't touch. Until such time as you know he's 'clean'. And happily, conveniently - he feels the same and wants the same 'safety kit'. But really - imagine if you two *were* purely platonic friends. Or both the same gender. What's wrong with two pals joining a romantic couple for a drink, one of which happens to be related to one or other of you? Or was it less about the event itself and more how it got conducted? I.e. did they seem to treat you as lovers? (Were you given one spoon to share between the two of you when dessert came? LOL) Were there - on his part - certain giveaway looks or glances or differences in body-language or tone of address/voice, chivalrousness...anything like that? Salient questions, however: do they live in the area or were they just visiting for the day and "WHADDA COINCIDENCE!"? "I’d say Tom is more ugly coz he was the most disappointing in the end with my dad I always new something was different about him." Yup. I get that completely. "But both him and my dad are similar in (now I realise, they are in a lot of ways) that they loved posing in front of mirrors." LOL. Figures. Define 'posing', though. We talking, pointing and going, 'Heyyy, handsome!' - or 'Vogue! (Vogue!) (Vogue!)...'? 6. Would have been shocked last year at Tom's quitter behaviour. But not know. It fits and figures. If you bump into him, just turn and walk in the opposite direction. If he tries to corner you, just say a very firm 'No, thank-you' (or just with your hand). The odds of accidentally meeting, however, are very low. So let me know if you do (course you would). Good stuff. And how's the hand healing?

Tsk - 'chivalrousness'? CHIVALRY! (Duh)

PS: If your hand's hurting or you're especially busy, just type something-anything (first verse of a poem will do) to keep yourself 'bumped up. and live. If you can't manage even that, just type a sad face to indicate you want me to do it.

Voice to text? That's if you have that option LILS

Ah, good thinking, "Q"!

That is a good idea scopes! Will reply tomorrow

Just a serving suggestion. Hopefully it works out for yee.

It’s been a busy few weeks. I think hand is healing well, when I try to take a look I can see it’s really bruised including my arm :-/ but the aching pain hasn’t got any worse. Yes, I did find out what was wrong with sis. Was to do with school. Same girls are still being mean to her and this time two of them made told a teacher sis had some nasty stuff about another classmate, when sis hadn’t. The teacher didn’t handle it very well and didn’t bother to talk to sis about this and shouted at sis and gave her a two day detention. So sis was upset and felt like she had been treated really unfairly. My mum took control of the situation. I think it was pretty stressful for them both because my mum couldn’t get a meeting with the teacher and headteacher together until after half term, so poor sis had to wait a whole week. This teacher teaches quite a few of her subjects too so I think she was anxious about going back to school and bring in lessons. My mum said she was on the warpath. As far as I know it’s all sorted now. Then in the same week my dad decided to email sis. It wasn’t nasty, or aimed personally at her, it was to the three of us but My mum said sis didn’t cope very well with him sending it to her. The email was saying sorry for the last meeting, and he wants to start again. I still don’t believe he’s genuinely sorry and I don’t think I can do another meeting without being civil. Teach has been dumped! And I think my mum will be better off with out him. He kinda made her act like not her self. It shows by the way she’s handling things with sis. I want to do more family nights coz meg and cuz came. I want dishy to be able to come but I think it’s too soon at the moment. I think I’ll become the organiser though! Yeah no more getting drunk for me. What an easy solution :-D. Dishys bro and gf were visiting for the day, they didn’t treat us like we were lovers they were just nice and chatty. Dishy just seemed to be his normal self, he introduced us as friends he wasn’t flirtatious or anything (that my job when I’m drunk, but no more :-p ). If it was me and dishy met my bro or sis, I think I’d probably ask them if they liked him. Sooo I don’t know if he’s done the same or if their opinions even matter to him.

Be with you as soon as, Lils. Scopes, feel free to say No, but - you couldn't do me a favour and answer some new incoming posts, could you? They're mounting up, look, aaargh!

I've noticed that! Will do!

Ah, cheers mate - owe you one! I'll be able to do some myself on Friday avo.

Boy you're not kidding! All kinds of stuff out there sheeeesh!

Aw, ROUND OBJECTS! I lost my post, Lils (and I was right near the end, as well) - grrr! Sorry, I'll have to try again tomorrow now. :-(

Scopes - yeah, I know! Sor-ryyyy [sheepish grin].

Ok :-) There’s some really interesting threads going on at the mo. Been reading and wanting to reply to them but it’s time. I replied to one at least.

I've seen and it's brilliant as usual, but Lily - I wasn't hinting at you - noo-noo-nooo; you're injured. ...unless you used voice record?

Your last post: "It’s been a busy few weeks. I think hand is healing well, when I try to take a look I can see it’s really bruised including my arm :-/ but the aching pain hasn’t got any worse. Yes, I did find out what was wrong with sis. Was to do with school. Same girls are still being mean to her and this time two of them made told a teacher sis had some nasty stuff about another classmate, when sis hadn’t. The teacher didn’t handle it very well and didn’t bother to talk to sis about this and shouted at sis and gave her a two day detention. So sis was upset and felt like she had been treated really unfairly. My mum took control of the situation. I think it was pretty stressful for them both because my mum couldn’t get a meeting with the teacher and headteacher together until after half term, so poor sis had to wait a whole week. This teacher teaches quite a few of her subjects too so I think she was anxious about going back to school and bring in lessons. My mum said she was on the warpath. As far as I know it’s all sorted now. Then in the same week my dad decided to email sis. It wasn’t nasty, or aimed personally at her, it was to the three of us but My mum said sis didn’t cope very well with him sending it to her. The email was saying sorry for the last meeting, and he wants to start again. I still don’t believe he’s genuinely sorry and I don’t think I can do another meeting without being civil. Teach has been dumped! And I think my mum will be better off with out him. He kinda made her act like not her self. It shows by the way she’s handling things with sis. I want to do more family nights coz meg and cuz came. I want dishy to be able to come but I think it’s too soon at the moment. I think I’ll become the organiser though! Yeah no more getting drunk for me. What an easy solution :-D. Dishys bro and gf were visiting for the day, they didn’t treat us like we were lovers they were just nice and chatty. Dishy just seemed to be his normal self, he introduced us as friends he wasn’t flirtatious or anything (that my job when I’m drunk, but no more :-p ). If it was me and dishy met my bro or sis, I think I’d probably ask them if they liked him. Sooo I don’t know if he’s done the same or if their opinions even matter to him." ***************************************************************************** 1. What's happened with Sis, and Mum responding by going on the warpath, is pretty standard secondary-school behaviour. But both dealt with it correctly, by the sounds - sis being brave in confiding, and mum responding befittingly Lioness-like (tick/tick!). Note, however, that these b*tchy girls came oh-so-coincidentally back out of the woodwork during another period in which Sis is feeling uncharacteristically low and weakened? Bullies can smell it. She needs to give them a very wide berth at such times (well - *all* times, but particularly 'when'...). PS: Overworked Teacher alert! 2. Define nasty. It's in the action: why email HER! Answer: Pity Ploy. Plus "The Grand Gesture", come "Promises-Promises" (another Hoovering tack (cocktail)). The inappropriateness (emailing it to her), however, gives him away. For just one other example - that is NOT the sort of content for email, but the phone (or letter). Advise her to fetch you, bro or mum (without opening/reading) whenever she sees him listed in her In-Tray. If your mum feels strong enough by now, she might (if Sis *does* want to put him to the test again) want to allow him a brief-ish visit to the FHM (former marital home). That way, there's supervision. And zero opportunity to work on Sis. So if he declines the offer - that act will expose his true agenda. Because it's tantamount to a self-allegedly starving man refusing a plate of food, which starving men don't do. 3. Teach dumped: GOOD! Because we know what this means, don't we children: "He kinda made her act like not her self." Plus the, not disproportionate, but slightly un-characterstic level of aggressiveness with the school, which is highly likely bottled-up anger at Teach and Dud coming out the minute Pandora's box HAS to be opened (because it's her lion-cub). Normal/Typical. 4. Dishy: TECHNICALLY, it's not too soon - because he (I suspect) contrived a once-over with his brother and gf...or possibly his brother did; but the point is, Dishy didn't object to it yet could have (or kept it very short and sweet). You woz ambushed (despite nicely). However, that technicality isn't real, therefore. So you're correct, it is too soon. Different if your family, cuz and Meg just so cough-happened to be in your uni town, LOL... but that ain't gonna happen, is it. Picture you and he walking along the Just Good Friends pavement as leads to to More Than Friends Square. If he wants to start hurrying ahead? Good for him and his longer legs. But he'll find himself walking alone because you'll still be strolling along, back at the more pace-appropriate spot. This will force him to come back again. Red Flag alert!, however. (Rushing Intimacy) See how it worked to leave you feeling beholden mixed with having carte blanche to reciprocate? Dats how it works... Aldough - nyyyeeeah... he don't know you vewy wew, do he. (Having a Bugs Bunny moment, ignore, LOL.) 5. How did you get drunk anyway? Who was buying? And who wasn't looking after you? Potential Red Flag alert! Although these Flags may be libido-induced, possibly. That's where more time and more slip-ups are your friend. :-) And Bugs, of course. ;-) And you. Because you relayed it. And that speaks volumes. :-)

PS: Edit: If mum feels strong enough by now, *she can suggest a far-flung enough date for said 'tea'*. Because, obviously, having just dumped Teach will have left her vulnerable to any advances for a month or two. But she can tell Dud that she is not ready to play hostess just yet (solely because of busy-ness). The point is, giving him a forward date (it'll buy peace time).

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx(Just bumping you up)xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I am read in that toxic mother post :-O. It made me think a bit more what it must of been like for bro when my dad lived at home. And shows that it’s good for him not to be around my dad so it’s not carried on. I kinda sensed that I needed to go home last weekend. My mum told me sis’s school problem got resolved, teacher apologised but then a few days later she said it had been really hard to get her to go to school. So it seemed like something was still going on. So spoke to sis and she opened up and it’s to do with a boy. She been friends with him for a while and hes made it pretty obvious he likes her, but one of the bully girls’ like him...well sis said she’s a bit obsessed with him :-/. When they pick on her he defend her which she says doesn’t really help. She too embarrassed to tell a teacher. I convinced her to tell my mum so at least she knows. We got drunk at a pub fishy’s not a club we either :-D which makes it easier. Dishy is good looker afer-er it’s more me and my stupid drunk brain, less drinking more self discipline. Usually we buy our own drinks. Have bought each other drinks before but don’t really keep tabs. And this week we’ve been hanging out with our own friends.

Tsk tsk...LILS gotta watch the booze speaking from experience of course. I'm a seasoned drinker tsk tsk on me :-D

Hey Lils, When you say the thread has made you think a bit more, are you talking about it having triggered long-forgotten memories of the things your dad would do and say to your brother that you'd witness and overhear? It's good that Sis has you to confide in. What about Bro - do you see him to speak to on visits too? Or do you suppose he's confiding in his girlfriend (they still together?)? What did your mum do with that extra information? "We got drunk at a pub fishy’s not a club we either :-D which makes it easier." LOL - pardon? Can I have that again in English, please? You need to stagger your drinks... one hard, one soft, one hard, one soft. Plus ensure you've eaten before hand or drunk a glass of milk to line your stomach and stop some of the alcohol getting absorbed. Re your last comment: so have things between you and Dishy plateau-ed more to good friendship?

PS: How well-healed out of 10 is your hand now (10 being back to normal)?

Hi, Yeah it did remind me what I witnessed and overheard with my dad and bro and also I try to understand what it was like from bros point of view too. Bro seems a lot happier at the moment. I’ve never seen him so focused on school he’s gettting good grades all the time now. Yeah He’s still going out with gf, must be getting on for 2 years now. I think he does talk to her quite a bit and I can see her being a good listener. Anyhoo it got me thinking more coz of my flakey friend too. I remember telling you and scopes that she’s really forgetful and makes need to make lists or she forgets things. Think I know Story time :-D few days ago I was having a really nice nap but then got woken up by this woman shrieking flakey friends name right outside my door and it wasn’t going away :-|. So I opened my door and flakey friend was there looking really harassed and not happy along with her mum who carried on having a go at her about her room. I said hi and flakey friend introduced us and told her mum we might be doing a houseshare next year which is true. Her mum asked me if I was sure coz she’d be a night mare to live with, everything need to be labelled and she went on and on. I told her that i didn’t think that flakey friend be a ‘nightmare’ to live, shes a really good friend and if we do get to live with each other I was going to look forward to it. Her mum looked a bit stunned. I nearly asked her if she could keep noise levels down too but thought that would be pushing it. I knocked for her a couple of hours later and asked if she wanted to go out. she did with no hesitation. My mum was still concerned that it wasn’t went really resolved with these bully girls. So she going back to talk to the teachers. I don’t think she’ll embarrass sis. Haha that sentence was meant to say we go to pubs to get drunk. Dishy isn’t a clubber either, which makes things easier. I Def eat before drinking coz otherwise we end up at some dodgy kabab or chicken place and a few friends have got food poisoning from thoses places. Yeah with me and dishy, for now, are good friends we have talked about this again neither of us are ready to start dating any time soon. I still really like him he but the problem was i was finding it really hard to stay self disciplined and he was too. We would watch quite a few films alone together ( prob not the bet idea) coz we like the same films and I could feel us both getting closer and closer, nothing ever happened but it could of done. So little bit of space with own friends was needed. Going to see again in like six months time. Hand is 7/10. Cast comes off in a few days time, woohoo, which is good coz it’s beginning to smell a bit musty under there ewwww. I can’t wait to wash my hand/arm.

I guess at the time, you were naturally thinking it's what all families are like, just the rough with the smooth, something everyone has to put up with, growing up, little realising until 'today' just how *dangerous* they are to your entire welfare, which is like a shining a whole new light on every past event and seeing it all with fresh eyes. Common stuff. Really? Getting good grades? Well, there we go, then. His prior rebellion must have, at least subconsciously, been a one-man protest march... his acting-out of "Can't you people see - the emperor isn't wearing any clothes!". Her mother was showing her up majorly by SHRIEKING in the dorm corridor? About her room - HER....ROOM? You mean, the room that has nothing whatsoever to do with her Mother?- sorry - Smother? Having a go about what, precisely? Wasn't it clean and tidy enough for her liking? "Her mum asked me if I was sure coz she’d be a night mare to live with, everything need to be labelled and she went on and on." What a rhymes-with-DITCH! Well done - seriously well done - for having put the silly woman back in her place! " I nearly asked her if she could keep noise levels down too but thought that would be pushing it." :-D Save that one for next time, yeah? High Five! " I knocked for her a couple of hours later and asked if she wanted to go out. she did with no hesitation." Yeah, funny that! Good grief. Narc Nation is right - THEY'RE EVERYWHERE! High Five to your Mum too. And - " I don’t think she’ll embarrass sis." : No, definitely not. She's a (thankfully) different kettle of fish from ol' Smother-chops there, entirely! (LOL, cheers for the amendment. Thought you must have been drunk for a moment there, LOL LOL.) Maybe save the getting tiddly for when you're with 'Smothered' gal friend. (Poor cow probably needs it, eh!) PS: And that's why (kid you not) my whole life, I have never (ever-ever-ever-ever-ever) tried a kebab. "Yeah with me and dishy, for now, are good friends we have talked about this again neither of us are ready to start dating any time soon. I still really like him he but the problem was i was finding it really hard to stay self disciplined and he was too. We would watch quite a few films alone together ( prob not the bet idea) coz we like the same films and I could feel us both getting closer and closer, nothing ever happened but it could of done. So little bit of space with own friends was needed. Going to see again in like six months time." Uh-huh? So that's - blah-blah blah blah blah-blah-blah...blah-bah-blah-bah-blaaah (and other laudable, co-intentions)? LOL, I think you'll both believe it when you see it. Because, actually, all *I* see is A MUTUAL, OUT-IN-THE-OPEN-LIKE-NEVER-BEFORE ADMISSION! Plus a mutual pockets-emptying exercise that came up clean as a whistle. Still, good on you both for wanting to try to slow it all down, that's the main thing. I wouldn't bank on 6 months being the full 6, though. ;-) PS: Who was the one raised the topic? "which is good coz it’s beginning to smell a bit musty under there ewwww." Ugh. Thanks for that. :-p Good job I haven't had supper, LOL. But seriously - good to know! (Y)

PS: If ever there's a next time, try using a knitting needle to attack the itch. PPS: I'm referring to the Smother, not your encased hand. (Made me laff, that's the main thing LOL!)

LILS sorry I've been out of the loop for a while. How's the hand doing? I'd think by now it would be out of the cast. :-)

Hey, Yeah cast is off now :-). I had to wait 3 hours for a consultant to confirm hand was fixed coz two fingers still looked a bit wonky. I’ve got to do some boring exercises. Good thing I took a book, a&e, when I first broke hand, was bl**dy quicker! Ugh, no, flakey friends room was not up to her mums standards. She was demanding Where things were. Why weren’t they in the right places, why hadn’t she done certain things? Why did she even bother to come all this way to help her? My friend told me they were actually meant to go out, but her mum couldn’t resist having a look so she could have a rant, which she said is what she’s used to. She was mean to her too, by calling her useless and lazy. I actually felt really protective and was thinking, leave her alone. I’m sure if we live together there will be more encounters with this silly cow, and I’m not put off, I’ll be ready. I’ve realised, all I got to do is being really positive about my friend around her mum, and that will shut her up, coz she clearly doesn’t like it. I personally think flakey friend doesn’t have to live by lists or have anything labelled it’s just what she’s always been told. She would need a lot of convincing and encouragement though coz she’s got quite a low opinion of herself. Her favourite saying is ‘I’m not he brightest’. Little bit annoying coz it’s not true. There’s also megs mum who's told her not to bother coming home over Easter hols if she can’t be bothered to go to church and help out. Which she was angry about at first coz it’s different rules for her other sibs. But she understands narcissism now. So meg is staying with us and Aunty and cuz :-), which will be nice. As Aunty said Our gain, her mums loss. yeah are narcs everywhere! Narc mums seem to be very b*tchy and want to control in every single little thing. I don’t think my dad cared that much, hes more of a child himself. Is there a difference? Well...I thought I did quite a good job at convincing myself that dishy and I were going to try and hang out more with our own friends to try and slow things down. Was my idea. Coz he lives a couple hours away from me so I thought get the summer out of the way. I don’t know what he’s got planned for the summer, and I got biz to focus on. then we’d see October time ish. That’s how I got to 6 months mark. Sounded like a great plan. Very sensible (y). But er, that’s not really happened since I last posted ha. We’ve been going out some week nights, at weekends, flakey friend and sometimes one of his friends will come too. Sometimes just us and it’s nice and comfortable. So realistically 2-3 months? One thing I do know is that I didn’t feel like this when I was with Tom. I’m not too sure if I even liked him that much coz I always remember being frustrated by how immature he was. Think that’s why I got over him quite quickly :-/. My dads cousin, who I haven’t seen since I was little, got into contact with my mum and bro on fb. He was looking to get in contact with my dad coz his kids have been asking him about family and it prompted him to try and get in contact with my dad. Him and my dad fell out years ago apparently. My mum told him briefly what’s happened and I think it’s put him off coz he told my mum it’s confirmed what he’s always thought of him and he was always strange. But he’d like to stay in contact with us. He doesn’t live that far away either. Yay, more extended family :-). Let’s hope he’s normal!

Lils, I'll be with you Saturday - am screamingly busy until then! Please see Isobel's thread for explanation.

"coz two fingers still looked a bit wonky" They aren't somehow stuck in the Vs-up sign, are they? LOL "She was mean to her too, by calling her useless and lazy. I actually felt really protective and was thinking, leave her alone." Tut-tut-tut. So am I. Good plan to counteract the toxicity. On top of that, however, is the headspace away from her mother enough to naturally detach and in so doing, see her 'lovely' mother and her smothering, belittling ways with a more objective eye. Shame her mother isn't intelligent and healthy enough to think of using the carrot instead of the constant stick, eh (goes around, comes around). Is there a difference? Yes. Covert, Vulnerable, Passive-Aggressive (weapon of choice, neglect in the form of disinterest - ref mum admitting she'd always been a lone parent), a loss of control + pressure resulting in temporarily becoming more overt and aggressive/pushy. Versus - Overt, Aggressive (weapon of choice, hyper-criticism, verbal abuse, derogation, etc.). She's not flaky, she's battered and mentally distracted/overloaded still... for the time being only (hello uni, bye-bye shackles). "There’s also megs mum who's told her not to bother coming home over Easter hols if she can’t be bothered to go to church and help out. " Ugh. So it's not her daughter she wants to see, then. Just her extra pair of hands. Ugh. "So meg is staying with us and Aunty and cuz " I'm sure she knows it, but - Meg is very lucky to have a friend like you with a family like yours. Nice one, Lily. "But er, that’s not really happened since I last posted ha. " LOL. (I'm good, aren't I? ;-)) "One thing I do know is that I didn’t feel like this when I was with Tom. I’m not too sure if I even liked him that much coz I always remember being frustrated by how immature he was." So what you're saying is, the difference is, Dishy strikes you as equally as Dishy on the inside. That is a huge difference, yes. Because it means, as a package you unwittingly only *half*-rated Tom. But was that before after he began acting up? In other words, don't, whatever you do, compare Dishy at X months with Tom at XXX months. Compare him to Tom at the exact same dating duration or stage. So what's the verdict on *that* basis? "My dads cousin, who I haven’t seen since I was little, got into contact with my mum and bro on fb. He was looking to get in contact with my dad coz his kids have been asking him about family and it prompted him to try and get in contact with my dad. Him and my dad fell out years ago apparently. My mum told him briefly what’s happened and I think it’s put him off coz he told my mum it’s confirmed what he’s always thought of him and he was always strange." Yes - elusively. Now, however, he's either temporarily or permanently (time will tell) left behind the long grass and is there, exposed, for all to see. "But he’d like to stay in contact with us. He doesn’t live that far away either. Yay, more extended family :-). Let’s hope he’s normal!" Well, given that he seemed genuinely turned-off by your dad's more recent behaviour, I'd say the chances are, he is. :-) Good, things are going well! Look forward to your next update!

(...albeit, do answer the Tom question.)

In the very beginning when Tom and I became friends at school, he seemed to be interested and flirted a little but then he asked out the head girl in our year and he then didn’t really talk to me when he was dating her. Then he dumped her and not long after asked me out. He had a bit of convincing to do, but driving me to see Aunty worked, along with a ‘I asked out he wrong girl, I’ve always liked you’ speech, ugh. He did always have a bit of an attitude that he did cover up well most of the time. It often came out with his family, he wasn’t that nice towards his mum or dad. His insecurities came out pretty early with his button pushing testing to see how I’d react to things, which was really annoying. He could be argumentative not just with me but with his friends too and he always had to be centre of attention. Which is why, later on, I didn’t wanted to go on holiday with him alone coz I knew what he’d be like. With Dishy I look at how he talks and treats his friends and other people. He’s consistent and nice to them, he offers to do things for them if they need help. And he seems to be very level tempered. I’m seeing him in a couple of days time :-). He asked if I wanted to meet up, just for a day. I said yes, and we’re meeting half way. Well, it’s little longer for him but he named the place to meet! Not a date - trying to tell that to my mum and meg was interesting, they still don’t believe me. I’m kinda pleased he asked, coz it feels like I’ve been giving him mixed signals a bit. one minute in showing him I’m interested and the next I’m trying to slow it down. Going to be a bit more laid back now and just see where this goes. I wouldn’t of had a problem with telling him no if I didn’t want to go coz I know he won’t take offence and things will stay normal with us. With Tom that wouldn’t of been the case. Don’t know too much about his family, other then he has a brother who he seemed to get along well with. We just seem to have a lot more in common. He’s a book worm too :-)

Flirting with you but asking out another woman [psst! - 'girls' are 12 and under ;-)], whereupon he began totally ignoring you until treating you like a consolation prize? If I were you and that ever happens again? - "You snooze, you lose, buster!". But yes, the differences between Tom and Dishy (*so far*) do indeed seem somewhat chasmic. They do say if you want to size up a bloke and spot if he has any issues, watch how he treats his mum and/or dad. Or anyone in his immediate family, I'd say. Noted, that he can't last the holiday without seeing you. :-) And that he's chosen to do the lion's share of the travelling. "Not a date - trying to tell that to my mum and meg was interesting, they still don’t believe me." It is and it isn't. This is his long, drawn out interview, LOL. And why *wouldn't* you want to make the interview so? BA do it? And this is more important - it's Lily's Heart Inc. And it's already had two giant bashings. 'Believe what ya like, kiddos!'. ;-) "Going to be a bit more laid back now and just see where this goes." Good plan. You haven't been giving mixed signals, you've been in two minds - which is where you *should* be at such early days after said bashings. He of all people should understand that. I'd say he does because he's been the same, I'd say. I mean, why not arrange the meet-up on last day of term? See what I'm saying? (or seeing?). No, with Tom, you could have offered him a slice of cake and he'd have read something negative in it! We saw that from his delayed passive-aggressive reactions, didn't we. "We just seem to have a lot more in common. He’s a book worm too :-)" Excellent. Yes, there's a lot to be said for liking the bloke as much as fancying him [understatement]. Really pleased things are going so non-stop safely and harmoniously for you lately. Not just Dishy but, by the sounds (and omissions ;-)), every corner of your life. Long may it rein, and keep the updates coming, missus!

LILS haven't heard from you for awhile what's up?

Or should I say what's new?

Hi, I’ve been busy but was also waiting for yesterday to come and go coz my dad came round. He kicked up a big fuss that no one had come to see him over Easter. He called my mum instead of contacting me or sibs and she said he could come round for a couple of hours if we wanted to see him. I was a bit surprised that she said this coz I didn't think she’d want him round so soon, let alone see him but she seemed to know what she was doing and how to talk to him. She laid down some boundaries, which was for him to come and leave on time and behave especially if he wanted more visits in the future. Me and sis saw him. I didn’t really want to but I was at home, and didn’t feel anxious about seeing him. I think that coz my mum was there. Bro was going out and didn’t want to see him. Aunty came round too and sat in another room reading but was there if needed. I don’t think he even saw her. He came round and it was no different to how he behaved last time. He was all huggy and kissy (ugh) when he first arrived and gave us money, apparently he ate our Easter eggs out of boredom. Whatever. I could tell he was annoyed bro wasn’t there and he was really trying to control himself from saying anything. He talked about himself. He’s so boring! And he’s still feeling sorry for himself! Sis told him about his cousin getting in contact with us. We are meeting him and his family in a few weeks and my dad wanted to come. My mum told him no, it was our meet up, if he wanted to see his cousin he could get int contact with him himself. My dad got angry and he left. He was only there for about an hour. Childish pr*ck. Clearly any future visits aren’t important to him. None of this is really surprising tho is it? I’m using the money he gave me to take dishy and flakey friend out for a Chinese coz I can’t think of anything else to do with it and don’t want to spend on just myself, so cheers dud (y). On to something a nicer... date but-not- a -date with dishy went well :-D. And a few more have followed and they were just as good. Feel like I’ve got to know him properly (as a person). Apart from dud, everything else is really well.

Hi LILS, Thanks for the update, sorry that things went a bit sour on your Easter because of your dad. As a friend of mine would say " it'll be alright "

Hey guys! Lils, that update requires a considered and lengthy response and so I'll be with you just as soon as - this weekend very latest. (Y)

Ooh, just slightly outside of the deadline, look. Sorry, Lils. Regards what happened, here's a valid, missing angle: Well, sounds to me like your dad didn't like newer, firmer, more confident, No Nonsense Mum with her impenetrable armour and cemented-in bollards (that she couldn't wait to try out on him, finally!) preventing bad or entitled behaviour. Who was this LIONESS?...("And - who does she think she is, telling me what I can and can't do!") ...so he punished her a sneaky way by lashing out at her lioncubs instead. He was (unreasonably) bitter toward you two, anyway, so... two for the price of one. The REASON no-one wanted to see him over Easter - which ANYONE can appreciate (anyone healthy-minded with inspection and introspection capabilities) - is because he's been a giant p***k to everyone, too consistently, and (duh) people don't like p***ks who mistreat them, particularly when they happen to be one of the people that area supposed to *involuntarily AND willingly* be the distinct opposite. So that's why. (Coo, life's a bleedin' mystery, ain't it?) His whole attitude is this: so WHAT if he upset your mum and you a bit [i.e. destroyed your mum's whole world as she knew it and you kids' alongside]? Get over it already, jeez... That's no reason not to be suitably chasing after Royal HIM for his time and company over Easter [After all, did he even invite any of you? Or did he just sit there, waiting to receive and, when nothing was coming, get all (pathologically) resentful to the point of needing (petty) revenge at the first opportunity, as in, "Me eated your eggs, hah, and I didn't even need to and don't even care, mleugh!"]?. Getting one over - nastily - on your children, the ones you're BOUND to have already injured and are still recovering from, because they haven't behaved towards you like self-assured, middle-aged adults or low self-esteemed martyr-saints come masochists? Who is so vindictive and hell-bent on revenge - given the circumstances, FOR NOTHING BUT ORDINARY BEHAVIOUR(!) on the part of their own children, that they can bring themselves to take a swipe at them in their still-injured state? (And I know it doesn't feel like it upset you, but on some level(s), silently, it did.) He is such a child. Still. STILL! He's not spent ONE second reflecting and putting himself in someone else's shoes - not one! Clearly, he's not programmed to. That wiring is patently missing. That man is NOT an adult. And nor is he a healthy child. (If I'd been there I'd have probably dryly said something like, 'Yeah, I did notice when you arrived that you were looking a bit podgier than usual...albeit, to be FAIR, it could just be middle-age spread?'.) (Meow.) And then walked out, calmly but disgustedly. Can I suggest you and your sister do that next time, please (the silently walking out/rejecting the behaviour bit)? But that's only if you can't follow brother's suit (or can't yet). What did HE says to mum, just out of interest? - 'Don't even ask me that!' or words to that effect? Did HE end up wounded by offensive insult? He didn't, did he. Jury's in, Lils. This is the real him. Dud, not Dad. He's a Grade A Giant A-hole who wouldn't know how to behave like a parent and father, or even just a mature, decent adult, if he had a How To manual tattoo-d to his face. He (moreover - that bit too much moreover for your mum's radar to cope with back then) hid it from you four (and Auntie) for a very long time... but then, don't they always, these award-worthy actors. For as long as they need you-the-tool for some social climbing purpose (window dressing), anyway. Once they don't - mask comes off AND STAYS OFF (Amen). But STILL only behind closed doors where "their public" won't ever find out. Maybe your mum should inform him that, on reflection, since all he did with that supposedly precious visitation opportunity was straight away prove he couldn't resist needlessly trying to cause, perfectly avoidable, wholly undeserved upset - next (ugh) time, you'll all meet him in MacDonalds instead. Until such time as he can prove he can self-regulate and control like the grown bloody adult he's supposed to be. BECAUSE THEN YOU CAN EASILY WALK OUT. It's not really possible to walk out of your own home. I doubt he'll be capable, though. Jury's in. He should have started calming down and reverting to type by now - if the type hadn't almost wholly been an act (with 'calming down' not even coming into it). Idealise. Devalue. Discard (pretend one as act of cruelty to weaken and better dominate). And repeat again and again. Then, if the person still won't start complying and licking a*se, actual Discard. The cycle repeated in major and - as we see regards you and Sis - minor format... a threat to abandon you again, this time emotionally, losing all feeling and protectiveness. ("Lovely kids....Evil kids..."You mean nothing to me - take that!".) ...Forevermore, in every single close relationship. Bloody Groundhog Day. For all we know, he might not have cared a hoot that you two didn't see him over Easter, but because someone else p*ssed him off (narcissistic injury) but remained non-accessible for or dodged a revenge tongue-punch - and, he found, ditto Mum: BOOF!, you gals got the boot put in instead... personal mini punching-bags. Could be either. Or both. It's a good job Auntie wasn't close-by enough to hear it, though. She'd probably have (tongue-) pulverised him for talking to you two like that. What did she and mum say when you both told them? Or had mum been there at the time and witnessed the whole thing? ****** Anyway, I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know - bar that one, unseen or unaccounted-for angle. But I needed to "ugh" as well. LOL ******* Oh did he? Want to come? What - only now you lot want to see the guy? Yeah, I'll bet he (suddenly) does. To inhibit or censor the spilling of some still-unknown truths. After all, you're all still his possession (ugh) if ever he needs that back-up provision so he wouldn't want that option destroyed by his cousin's accounts. "I’m using the money he gave me to take dishy and flakey friend out for a Chinese coz I can’t think of anything else to do with it and don’t want to spend on just myself, so cheers dud (y)." There you go. Lemons into Lemonade. :-) ****** "On to something a nicer... date but-not- a -date with dishy went well :-D. And a few more have followed and they were just as good. Feel like I’ve got to know him properly (as a person)." Yeah? And/Meaning?? You saying you feel you've reached a point where you feel confident you've had the Green light? PS: Boring. Yes. Once they've ceased striking you as a negative enigma wrapped in a hurtful mystery - that, they are. "Me me-me-me. Me, Me Me. And Me. And more me. Bit more me because I'm riveting. And - what the hell - me-me-ME!" These are the people to whom you tend to have to say, 'Gosh, sorry for talking while you're interrupting?!'. I'll tell you what, though ("What?"). Maybe he said what he said because (predator senses) he could sense - as well, got above-table confirmation - that he, AND his petty insult attempts, now mean virtually nothing to you? Have a thinkipoos and get back to me?

PPS: Is flakey friend still flakey? Or have you detected any, even slight improvement?

My mum said she had been talking with her counsellor about coming with us when dud decides he wants to see us. Which is good to know coz if bro (doubt it) sis want to see him I don’t have to go. I think He did sit and wait till the end of the Easter hols and wonder why no one had come to see him coz he didn’t invite anyone. Dud def didn’t like the new assertive her but I noticed that she’s a lot more confident for a little while now. When he was going on about how lonely and bored he’s been, she used lines like ‘oh no, that must of been very hard for you’ and ‘I’m sorry to hear that’ (not). Not sure if he noticed her sarcasm coz he carried on talking. He especially didn’t like it/ quite stunned more like, when she told him to grow up or leave when he started having a strop and tried to start an argument with her about us going to see his cousin without him...coz he left. I didn’t have anything to say to him, I was more interested in how my mum was going to be with him and felt a bit protective with sis. Sis was more outraged when dud admitted he had eaten all the eggs, and after he finished bragging he went out and bought expensive, posh ones she was like ‘you pig, you ate all three Easter eggs!’ And gave him a really judgemental look. Mini Aunty in the making that girl. Bro just pulled a face, which pretty much said why are you even asking me and said he wasn’t going to change what he was doing for HIM. my mum had made it clear to my dud she wasn’t going to make us to see him. Aunty has admitted that she did have the door a tinnny bit open and was standing listening and was pretty disgusted. She had to stop herself from coming in the room and have words with dud but she thought my mum was doing very well. And the good thing about Aunty is she makes sure we go out and have fun. Dropped sis off at friends house and we went to the pub (y). Cuz joined us too but he wasn’t very chatty! But yeah, dud def been demoted to meeting in a mcdonalds next time ...not sure when that will be. I plan to follow bro. My mum said she’s not having him back in the house again either. I felt a bit meh after for a few days after coz I think I realised that this is how he is going to be every time. So yeah I get that jury is in. I felt quite bitter towards him. dishy noticed and cheered me up tho :-D. Dishy has asked me out on a proper date, which is what I’ve been waiting/hoping he would do. as long as he doesn’t try rush things on date (don’t think he will) then I feel confident. Only thing is, is when uni finishes he’s gong to visit his mum, who lives in another country; so he’s going for a month. Humph. There have been some changes with (not so) flakey friend. Shes def not as forgetful and doesn’t hide away in cafes anymore. She’s stopped talking to her mum everyday when she thought she had to. But I can always tell when she has spoken to her mum coz she gets anxious. she’s joined the same book club as me too so she trying to interact more.

Hey Lils! Finally! Been trying to find the time ever since our last posts! 1. "My mum said she had been talking with her counsellor about coming with us when dud decides he wants to see us. Which is good to know coz if bro (doubt it) sis want to see him I don’t have to go." Good - Mum's taken back another adult baton. Plus, she must feel he can't affect or manipulate her any more (tick!) to have decided on that 'vulnerable' course of action. Yeah - bro - doubt it. LOL In fact, let's NOT place bets. (How long did he hang around in the end – 10 minutes?) Sis either hasn't quite got 100% with the programme or is still wobbling back-and-forth on that spot due to still holding out hope he can permanently 'ping back' into a normal(ish) dad again (because, remember, was the golden child whom he’d have been the ‘nicest’ to), or feels too sorry for him (falling for believing he's normal enough to want or need her pity and charity), not to keep up contact despite his having only just behaved badly yet again. Or both? Which or in what proportions do you suspect? She'll learn. It's inevitable and just a matter of more time and repetition versus where her particular line in the sand lays. Again, without the normal scapegoats around he’ll start on her, do something(s) to wake her up to him for-good, finally... after all, had she already neared her limit, that little easter-egg stunt would have been enough. Once she’s met her limit, she can join in with supporting the family endeavour to re-discipline him into at least putting on an ACT of fatherly normality again, for fear of the consequence of DELAY TO OR HIATUS FROM OR SEVERANCE OF CONTACT (yeah, let HIM walk on eggshells since he was the one insisted they feature in the first place). "I think He did sit and wait till the end of the Easter hols and wonder why no one had come to see him coz he didn’t invite anyone." 2. Knew it. It's what they do. It's like an engineered, preparatory, anti-guilt-lotion, applied right before they intend to 'ambush and mug' you. They'd mug you anyway because it's what they do. But this way, if their mind can fabricate and/or blow out of all proportion some crime on your part beforehand, their compulsive mugging fails to strike even them as a sign of their broken-ness and instead becomes "just normal, rightful, logical" revenge (albeit only to your average, angry &issue-ridden 8-year-old...this being the bigger symptom that conveniently never occurs to them.) It's up to you, but if it were me I'd try from now on to have fun with it, rather than let it needle or even sit there in the air like a giant elephant in the room, and, next time I saw him, greet him with a hearty, 'Alright Humpty?’. That then then paves the way nicely for yet more comedy sluttery at his expense (as a way to flex your newly bigger muscles in front of him), next time he behaves like a spitefully insulting prat of a brat behind a "poor wickle ME, not you" act, as a more fun disciplinary measure and deterrent....such as there-and-then or later adding, 'Have [or 'Haven't] they managed to put you back together again yet?'. And then, possibly, seeing your next opportunity (because there always is one) - 'Strike that last question, what you've just said/done spells out a big, fat No [sauntering off with calm disgust]'. Again, just if you ever feel like it in the moment. It would be you 'out-Narc-ing the Narc' - for the purposes of keeping his mind focused ON YOU for a good while - even in absentia and no matter who else he's with, obsessing as they do, over you and your “giant” insult. Remember I described this?...where you effectively wave your arms and yell, 'Oy monster, not there - here!' whenever any of your pack are due to be 'alone and unprotected' in his vicinity? FYI Narcs of all varieties HATE being reminded of their crimes by their victims. It causes significant Narcissistic Injury (yes, they are that pettily, fragile-ly egotistical). Their misdemeanours, abuses and cruelties are - as is befitting for a superior or 'god' - supposed to get instantly forgiven and forgotten - to the extent that THEY DIDN'T HAPPEN. You reminding them, keeping that sick elephant ABOVE-table, therefore, [2] PARTICULARLY in a wittily pee-taking (show of no fear) way as makes others not help but laugh (*humiliation-humiliation* = extra Narc Injury), REALLY "hurts" their false pride and self-delusions. So if you stand back and look again you can see, it's left jab, right uppercut, upper hook (sends him flying)...bam-bam-bam! That's how you get the monster always having his seething sights set on the (ha-ha!) one person who isn’t within his reach. But you do have to ‘suck and see’ in case it just makes him want to gain vicarious revenge via mum and sis all the more (though not if one does it properly). If they can see you can see them for what they are, Amen, they tend to need to stay away from you because you’re a threat to their tenuous, fake self. Do that AND show you now can ‘pulverise’ them any time, better than they ever could, especially for crimes against your clan, they tend to look for new, replacement supply. Saying that, don’t ever be surprised if your bully suddenly wants to be bestest friends (it’s a ploy to get you close enough and back to sleep enough to be ambushed when you no longer expect it). Ignore it and send a clear message that you know too much, are now Narc-proof (Game Over). 4. ...HOPEFULLY, the way mum’s emotionless-ly humouring him, you won't need to. But it's just in case being in his infectious presence on a regular basis, open to needling or sucking-up, starts to chip away at her resolve and foggy her glasses again. It happens and this is why people eventually realise that No Contact is the only way to remove a human thorn from your side. The alternative is to do nothing and just let Nature take it's course. Again, it depends how her visits with him appear to be going. Let’s watch that space. The next alternative on the menu is your mum and sister vowing to play dumb in his presence (Insult? What insult?...I'm just a Barbie Girl, tee-hee; this confuses because it appeals due to fitting with their misogynistic view). After all, if they don’t let him then he can't hurt or offend them. But just to warn you, they might after a while start to need reminding...i.e. will relate to you some story about the meeting, where you can tell the behavioural Red Flags have failed to have caught their eye or impacted properly, and you have to point them out to them to remind them of what and who (no, just what) he is. Common stuff, albeit, usually it's what the healthy parent has to keep repeating fortnightly on their kiddie(s) after every weekend custod with the problematic parent...think removing viruses and recalibrating them back to healthier thinking and attitudes...and moods. Or to at least incorporate it in with the sarcasm (which, no, they don't/can't detect, certainly not during pity-party time) (and PS you need Empathy to have a sense of humour so they don't have one of those, either, bar whatever fakery and mimicry). 5. "He especially didn’t like it/ quite stunned more like, when she told him to grow up or leave when he started having a strop and tried to start an argument with her about us going to see his cousin without him...coz he left." Threw Teddy out the pram, did he? GOOD, SHE ERECTED BOUNDARIES AND ELECTRIFIED THOSE FENCES! Again, that's brilliant. But let's watch to see whether she can keep that up. Because he WILL try to chip at it from now on to reclaim the status quo. She's showing she's no longer in any of his control. He'll want it back...in case (they arrogantly think) he in future needs to reel her back into a relationship or into free service for him while finally he gets close enough to start pushing at said boundaries. But he'll undoubtedly be plotting against her now, which just makes it even more of a good idea for you to negatively divert his attention. Don't know...see how the next few days go. After all, he might try winding her up via a text/email, mightn't he! You never know, though. Their revenge isn't always instant and can be as inappropriate and unreasonable as the rest of them. He could save that petty revenge for NEXT year when she won't see it coming. But I doubt it with a Narc Injury; the urge to get the person back is too immediate. 6. "Sis was more outraged when dud admitted he had eaten all the eggs, and after he finished bragging he went out and bought expensive, posh ones she was like ‘you pig, you ate all three Easter eggs!’ And gave him a really judgemental look. Mini Aunty in the making that girl." Good. Not that it changes an awful lot, albeit does slightly, but, what do you mean he went out and bought more eggs? I thought you said he gave you money? You need to clue her up about failing to react in future and instead just say something like, 'That'd be right'. Because again – and I can’t stress this enough - for all she knows, there WEREN'T any three eggs (because he'd forgotten, didn’t wanna, or was waiting to decide) and just said it to needle. ...her, mainly, since she's still of an age where eggs are exciting...albeit, still for the purposes of vicariously punching the lioness. In fact, there probably weren't...because that would have taken effort, think about it. [Narc script:] Why BUY eggs [when you lack the normal motivations to] if you can just SAY you did?....Particularly if your “great excuse” for why you miraculously no longer have them will hurt...Don't buy the eggs until you decide you feel like it or because by then you can tell it would serve your agenda. (Ugh) 7. "Bro just pulled a face" LOL "he wasn’t going to change what he was doing for HIM". Can you hear the resentment as well as disdain talking, Lils, and the huge weight of it? He's hurting yet steely-determined nonetheless, look. 8. "Aunty has admitted that she did have the door a [tiny] bit open and was standing listening and was pretty disgusted. She had to stop herself from coming in the room and have words with dud but she thought my mum was doing very well. And the good thing about Aunty is she makes sure we go out and have fun." Gold Star! 9. Cuz wasn't very chatty? Had something happened to upset him or make him have to think something through? (He wasn't there to witness your dad’s mealy-minded behaviour, was he? Because that would certainly get him thinking!...comparing, I imagine?) 10. "But yeah, dud def been demoted to meeting in a mcdonalds next time ...not sure when that will be. I plan to follow bro. My mum said she’s not having him back in the house again either." Did she? Gold Star! (Have these two been reading the same How To book?) "I plan to follow bro. " (Have you??) Gold Star for you too! Don't beat yourself up, however, if in a year or two you decide to acquiesce - a very little - in terms of braving him very (very) occasionally. [1] If it happens it’ll be because you know you can handle it/him stood on your head by then, and he just strikes merely as pathetic and irritating, and [2] there'll inevitably be occasions, like weddings and rellie gatherings (eventually). By the same token, don't beat yourself up if it's the opposite. How you deal with a subtle lunatic is entirely up to you and how you roll. And that's the point of recovery: finally daring to be You. The You that got stifled or shelved. Because you know you're the healthy one, ergo, anything you choose will automatically be likewise. You'll trust yourself. But anyway, back to the here and now... 11. "I felt a bit meh after for a few days after coz I think I realised that this is how he is going to be every time. So yeah I get that jury is in. I felt quite bitter towards him. dishy noticed and cheered me up tho :-D." Good, I'm glad you had a reaction or I'd have had to have called for Matron. :-) Yup. One of your family members turned out to be a bit - but in the context of a family home/intimate relationship - majorly - mentally-emotionally ill. "Never mind him", you'll say, finger circling temple, "He's a bit...funny, you know..". Or better yet, "Oh, yeah, him...haven't seen him for years". After all, Lils, what ELSE can a body do but stay away if there's no curing or curbing the eejit? Maybe if the eejit finds himself increasingly, permanently down & out and devoid of suppliers he'll decide His Way, bullying and manipulating his way through life, not only did NOT work but failed gravely - because look where he is: alienated from his entire family [for victim-reassuring info purposes, they genuinely rejected him rather than the other way around, and for good reason] and having to associate with dross.... then maybe because of it, losing his job....down-round-down-round, SPLAT. And this is one of the reasons they're labelled Parasites: they always need to hitch a ride with a super-strong, super-capable, super-hard-working individual like your mother as without him/her, they cannot maintain any effort at or pretence at decency. They come from the gutter and, once you shake them off, return to the gutter (with all its gutter folk). Not always. But those that don't, still endure a boring, cold, clinical life devoid of any richness called emotional as well as intellectual experiences. It'd must be like a toddler, being force-read to virtually all-day-every-day, but where they're picture-blind and so practically their whole waking hours consist of just this endless stream of meaningless text (that you're too young to understand) opposite blank pages. YOU'D be constantly bored, agitated, irritated, half-crazy and looking for drama, battles, plots (MacDiversions) and easy MacGratifications like flattery and getting your insta-way all the time, etc., etc., and having eyes only for power, prestige, admiration, constant MacValidations, and money, wouldn't you. *Particularly* if there are all these other people acting like the story not only makes sense but stimulates, and the pictures beautiful and riveting... When you're ill and you know you are, clap your hands. Oops, wrong song, hur-hur. When you're ill and you know you are, you want (secret/private, self-administer-able) medication now-now-now and it has to take effect instantly...."turn that horrid feeling off!, turn that horrid feeling off!, turn that horrid feeling off!, turn that horrid feeling off!, turn that horrid feeling off!...". Talk about a living hell of an itch you can never scratch (unless you deliberately set light to yourself, i.e. admit you're subtly but severely malprogrammed and risk nervous breakdown at that mountainous self-admission after years of desperate, survivalist self-delusion)? This is why you have to pity them in theory, but in practise deal with them as the mini-Beelzebub they are, and ne'er the twain should ye risk meeting. Because in the flesh they are just waiting to hit you before you hit them and hence are NOT waiting, just constantly hitting for no or too little reason. Anyhoo, don't get me started! LOL Let's lighten up. Here - Do MacDonalds do a Dud Burger? What about a Big Muck? A Banana MacSheikh? Massive Chips On Shoulders? I was thinking you could show him how much he means to you by pre-ordering for him, you see. Alternatively, I guess you could prepare him a plate of Ketchup and explain it as beingin recognition of his amazing talent at making meals out of nothing? Meow. :-D I needed that. Talking about your dud 'does things to me'. That's why I'm not confident about Mum being able to maintain her stance, you see. Desensitization into re-brainwashing needs only enough repetition and recurrence, particularly if delivered under the radar as leads straight to the deeper recesses of your mind. Anyhoo - now onto Dishy: I like that Dishy noticed because, unless you were very obvious, it (I'll say 'seemingly' as it's still quite early days) shows he's empathetic AND in-tune with you (This Stage tick!). I like that Dishy felt you approachable enough/trusted you enough to bring it above-table as well as offer to help you out (tick! x 2). And that he showed that your mood and sadness affects him hence had to rescue himself through you as well as rescue you, combined (tick! x 2). And I like that he had the power to cheer you up and that you let him (tick!/tick!). "(I'll say 'seemingly' as it's still quite early days) " I'll reserve all comment over this one until I've frisked it. How soon after cheering you up did he then 'propose'? This needs inspecting, though: "Only thing is, is when uni finishes he’s gong to visit his mum, who lives in another country; so he’s going for a month. Humph." Ooh noo, a whole month! SLOW DOWN. Never mind *him* (he's his business) - YOU. Look at that quote again and this time appreciate what you've just said. And I don't care how seemingly understated it presented as because [1] we also had 'only thing is' and [2, 3] the fact you felt it to point of expressed it at all. It's actions, remember? Substance over Style. So to repeat more simply: assuming you commence dating this weeks, two weeks' worth of dating should not equal being bothered at the thought of a four week absence - despite having been friends first can kid you into FEELING like you've been dating for much longer, i.e. you've done the leg-work and now you can lose yourself in the fun part. NOPE. This is the downside to being friends first. You're not being promoted. You have been (nicely) fired as his friend so 'don't work in that dept any more'. You are merely DUE to start a NEW job at another, however-much related, sister company. How much involvement and unity those two outfits share, remains to be discovered after time on the job. In other words – that was one test-drive, this is a new one (old one but in greater earnest). Now also understand that rushing a relationship/your new gf - particularly after having for months and months appeared to be doing the almost opposite - does not have to be done directly via the self, let alone outright. It's possible if you've practised your whole life, daily, to subtly and imperceptibly influence someone's thinking and which way they 'lean', whereby they, even willingly, do your workload (less than healthy Normal) or dirty-work (Narc) or outright romantic con-job (Socio/Psycho) FOR you. That's the POINT of selfish manipulation. It's part of cheating at life because you in effect make the person your slave in doing what should be YOUR workloads, through too little effort on your part (by then it's second-nature, that's the whole problem. It doesn't lead to lasting happiness but remember they've had that mental telescope chopped off, anyway, through lack of usage due to over-busying oneself with stupid thoughts and plots and other mental crap, so can't even have that consequence occur to them....there's no room in their over-crowded brain for it or that wiring never got born with the rest of them, or both.) Capiche? See how easy it is to make that mistake? Common stuff. Happens in every arena, not just the romantic one. “Ah, but I’ve known him for a year already” / “No, you haven’t – that was his Friendship facets; he’s since ‘turned’ so now you’re meeting never-before-met facets. New test-drive. (‘Scuse repetition but this is important.) Tip: How to tell if something, this case dreading and missing, was your idea/your feelings or his (manipulated in you): see if you feel and think differently since having come out of their forcefield for a day or three. If it's yours it'll still be there. If it disappears too quickly right after they do – Pink Flag alert. (Same goes FYI for when things they say/explain make sense at the time you’re with them, only to find you can’t even explain it in a way that makes logical sense to a third party hours or days later.) You do not become a bloke's girlfriend (or a lass's boyfriend) the minute they ask you on a first date, despite it might feel like a huge promotion against the backdrop of having been kept...perhaps for slightly too long?... as "just a friend". New mantra: fluff feels like fleece following a fleece famine. That status and tenure recognition label is earned, step by individual step. I.e. you don't get asked to BE a girlfriend, like a knighthood bestowed - you BECOME one. New Mantra: do the verb and you'll earn the noun (a variant of 'don't tell me, show me!'). Anyway, what's wrong with, 'I'll miss him for those [cough!] few short weeks, but I have to admit, I'm secretly pleased because I'm really looking forward to having the opportunity to catch up with Meg/etc., and the business, and fart and burp and grow my leg-hair if I want to (etc., etc.)'? As usual, I'm not saying there IS anything wrong with this fella (although I still want to know the time interval between cheer-up and ask-out). But that doesn't mean we throw away the rulebook. You do the checks and assessments routinely and regularly as preventatives AND NO EXCEPTIONS FOR ANYONE FOR ANY REASON. Because you're worth keeping safe. Or, alternatively, always protecting a means of easy escape until such time as you know for pretty-much certain that the rulebook and keeping safe (to that extent) are no longer needed or can at least go back on the shelf. Remember, toward the end there and for a long time, Tom starved you. On whom have you 'feasted' since? It's no-one, isn't it? Other than yourself and the love and attention of your fam, I mean? But meanwhile, any such newly accrued food has been taken away (via first- and second-hand insults and neglect from Dud). That equals VERY HUNGRY as well as INJURED, SEEKING BALM. Liable to gorge and slap on too thickly. His (theoretically) tempting spread plus your extreme, chronic hunger - environmental finger meets and can push internal button, equals, Activate programme labelled RUSH... Romance-hungry, Under-fed, Salvation-impatient = Hell Domesticus (via the fake gates of fake Heaven Domesticus). I think it would be a good idea from this point on if after posting you were to wait a day or two to re-read what you've put with a fresh eye and no emotional arousal in the mix (listening to 5 mins of a talk radio show beforehand helps). This way you'll get used to self-monitoring and -regulating at that higher level, automatically and effortlessly. You need to start 'watching' yourself like I watch you and everyone on here. I.e. to be pretty certain there's exploitative bullying going on, you don't second-hand inspect the suspected bully; you diagnose him (or merely his intentions if he's not unhealthy enough for NPD/AsPD) by closely observing the *victim*, how s/he is talking and behaving. Because they're the one you have full access to (or in your introspections case, 100% 24/7). Inspect yourself and how you’re overridingly feeling to tell how healthily he's functioning and how well he (or the relationship) is treating and affecting you. Anyway, your safety maintenance aside: How does HE know what Near-Future He will want to do come mid-June? Future is future. You two might have snogged a lot by then - and snogging can make for convincing arguments for randy, love-struck young blokes who mainly follow the compass in their trousers (sorry mum, I can only stay for one week this time). Alternatively, by then your lips and chin might be so red-raw you can't WAIT to give them a month's break! ;-p So… back to the time-lapse/events association or separateness question? PS: Sounds like friend is right on-target vis-a-vis recovering and recouping her more natural self via this freedom and your sassy influence. (Y)

Sorry - mispaste! I quoted myself before stating I'd reserve judgement. It was supposed to be the bit about hoping he won't rush (my point being, he might be already).

Hi! I had been keeping an eye on my mum since duds visit, and checking how much contact they have had with one another. Dud did call her once apologising for his behaviour. My mum said (later on reflection) it was the worst apology ever. He said he wants to start family counselling and asked my mum if she’d ask sibs and I if that’s something we’d consider. Yawn, boring, heard it all before. He can’t even be nice or stay for an hour when he apparently does wants to see us, there’s no way he going to last in counselling. He can’t even go by himself. Anyway I said no, bro said no, sis was hesitant, like I thought she would be. She was saying just coz bro and I say no that shouldn’t be the final answer And how do we know he doesn’t want to change if we don’t go and give him chance? - she def does wobble back and fourth with dud, sometimes she really dislikes him and sees him for who he really is but then other times she questions things and my mum or I will talk her through it. she does secretly hope that he will go back to ‘dad’. So the four of us ended up sitting down and discussing it ...didn’t end well! Bro got really angry, really quickly with sis and wasn’t being patient with her at all. It was quite worrying at how bitter he has got. he was swearing (my mum wasn’t tolerating it but he was ignoring her) and actually being quite intimidating and saying for all he cared dud could f*** *ff and die :-/. So they started arguing. My mum stepped in, to bro it looked like she was taking sis’s side coz she told him to stop putting pressure on her, to calm down and let her talk. So bro got angry with her and they argued. I’m sitting there thinking; this is exactly what dud wants. He doesn’t actually want any kind of counselling. What he does want is for us to argue and for there to be tension so he can probably get someone (likely sis) on his side. I did point this out but bro told me to shut up! So nothing got resolved, bro was too angry, sis was crying, my mum was stressed and I wanted to escape back to uni but felt like I couldn’t coz I would only worry things would escalate. Didn’t think it would but didn’t want to risk it. No one was really talking to each other so was a bit of a cr*p rest of the day/eve. Aunty came round on Sunday like she always does. She was only there for less then a minute and was like ‘right what’s going on?!’. She listened to everyone, told bro off for swearing, wanted to know why my mum even bothered to talked to dud and got everyone sorted and talking again. She agreed with me dud did want this to happen. Clearly we all just need to look out for duds stupid games. Normally he’s quite keen to find out our answer, but he hasn’t tired to contact my mum . I’ve been talking to bro this week making sure he’s ok, coz I’ve never seen him that angry before. I don’t think he could explain why he got so angry, he knows its to do with dud and he said the though of being in a room with him made him feel sick. Think he meant anxious. I thought he was confining in gf a lot but apparently ‘not much anymore’. Haha dud burger :-D ******** Cuz wasn’t very chatty coz megs mum is making it very obvious she doesn’t like him, for no reason other than because meg stayed with him and Aunty and us at Easter. Even though her mum told her not to bother going home! I think it is causing some tension between him and meg. ******** With dishy he asked me out a good few days after duds visit (trying to remember how many) not straight away, as in that was his way in trying to cheer me up. I am slowing down (also taken in what you said) now coz I think at the moment family is a little bit more important, bro in particular. Dishy understands this coz he’s seen me quite stressed about this a few times now and I’ve talked to him quite a lot about it. And he got a phone call at the weekend (ha poor him) he was very nice though and he made effort to see how I was when I got back to uni. I did actually feel quite threatened by what happened and can see just how easily me, my mum bro and sis fall out coz of dud. And he goes away to his mums really soon and I suppose I do have quite a lot catching up to do with Meg and there is biz too. Happy to have date later on in the summer tho, we’ll see :-)

(Bear with, Lils, got slight techie problem, have just alerted Da Boss, will keep you posted (scuse pun)...)

Back again… Turns out it’s not a forum prob, or this thread; it’s my PC (which is giving my characters a serious time-lag after I’ve struck each key, yawn)…going to have to get that chap back. Anyway… back to your stuff. I’ll address every topic and point over the next few days in separate posts, but for now let’s deal with your Dud. ************** When I stand right back and look at the event beginning with Easter Sunday, through the unique (bleugh) Cluster B lens, I see this: Your Dud didn’t (doesn’t ever) like being told how things were going to be by your Mum. Because it represented her new-found independence = harem member getting out of his control. So, instead of being thankful for her assistance with the new ‘venue’, reminded her who was boss by painfully prodding and pinching her kids, particularly the youngest (made worse by the fact she’s was always supposed to have been – because he’s a kid, not a grown man – his favourite, his Golden Child, meaning, a bigger departure). But it didn’t work how he wanted because she didn’t let up (ticked him off) and even when he flounced out, her attitude was evidently “fine, go, whatever”. He hoped she’d chase after him, persuade him to stay and sort it out blah-blah. So – fuming, but conceding tactical defeat and the fact he no longer has his hooks of control in her well enough – he came back with switched tactic to Hoover and Love-Bomb under the veil of parental concern to get said hooks better in again. It worked (so thank god it’s only a setting-of-his-scene right now, gives you time to point this out to her directly or with a web article dealing extensively with Bait & Switch and more complicated Hoovering for re-dominating purposes alone). .. First she picked up to him. I wouldn’t have done, certainly not for a few weeks for a WHOLLY NEEDLESSLY spitefully childish stunt like that – or two if you count the sudden flouncing out on top. This is where the Silent Treatment is appropriate, because it’s for the right and sensible reasons and you’ve no other choice; you’re not doing it to twist someone’s arm, but untwist yours out of their grasp – diff all the diff. It’s called Time Out and you inform them first by dignified, matter-of-fact email). Next, she accepted the invited conversation about counselling. I’d have said either that I had something under the grill, call you in a day or not [not]) or just told him straight that I wasn’t ready to bring myself to talk to him after the childishly spiteful way he’d behaved – both toward the children and in front of the children, and on a special occasion (NOTE). Next, she agreed to play messenger and ask you all. She should ideally have stated she had no objection to the idea, nor if he wanted to pop over (not right there and then – by convenient appointment) and ask all three of you to your faces, following, obviously, a full-frontal, at least *sincere-sounding* apology and explanation. (He probably would have ditched the entire idea at that point. This bozo can’t be humble in front of other adults, no way can he to “mere minions”.) But we can’t blame her because those boys (and few girls) drip-drip put on a hell of lot of invisible shackles which take time again to unpick and remove. Also, if someone offers you crumbs (of co-parenting hope) after flecks of sh*t, they taste like cake and you grab them in the hope that they’ll newly become the standard fare (which they obviously won’t if you turn your nose up at them). When your mum’s had longer to recover she’ll realise that what she did here was dance the tango instead of the foxtrot, and feel defiant and independent for that, forgetting that she still did as he wanted by getting on the dancefloor – HIS. A lot of victims say, ‘I’m not a victim because I always hit him back’, to which my answer is, ‘Shouldn’t have had to. Ever. That’s where the abuse is, luv, not what style you choose to react to its details with’. IOW, handling them aka ‘not taking his sh*t any more’ is not about style but actual content. She needs to tell him that if he behaves like he did that day one more time – he won’t be coming here and neither will she again be persuading the kids on his behalf, even by implication of playing the messenger, if ever they say they don’t want to see him. It’s her he’s after. He wants at least one of you kids in custody tow or else how is he going to persuade his new target (YUP, he’s right now doing that dance’s characteristic steps) that he loves kids and kids love him? (She must have kids or want them.) More later or tomorrow - feel free meantime to respond/discuss, Lils. (PS Still loving your posts btw, but do give them a Narc link to ‘eliminate it from the enquiry, so to speak’ if suggesting outright feels too tricky.)

PPS: Chicken MacNuffin See if you or Scopes can come up with one?

Actually, it's 'Mc', isn't it, not 'Mac'. I clearly don't eat there enough, LOL.

Here's another: Big Muck.

"Feel Loafish" (Geddit? :-D) Wait!... "Vegetable Deluxe" :-D :-D Didn't have to alter a thing!

Back to seriousness: Where in the divorce process is your Mum? Can you find out? Is her solicitor well-versed in divorcing a Narcissist (should be, especially these days, considering so many solicitor practises are re-designing their website opening pages to-suit. If not - CHANGE NOW! Again, can you find out? Also, does and did she, to her knowledge, have full and equal access to all marital money and assets? And what form does/did that knowledge take? Hearsay or 'with own eyes'? As well, did/does she know his (true) salary? And has her solicitor long secured Interim Spousal and/or Child Maintenance?

PS: To remove (hopefully permanently) any family Cognitive Dissonance (he's normal/no he's not/repeat...), ask them to replay the tape and all agree his behaviour disturbs and makes no sense. The ask them to replay it where the venue this time is the primary school playground, he's aged about 8-10 and is notorious for being more often than not a really nasty little piece of work, the type that all the nice, normal kids always try to stay right away from. Everything up until today should fall into place for them. And it's true. They really are stunted despite their bodies carried on growing and developing normally.

PS: I realise it's said and I've said, that they're the way they are, merely through CHOICE. But they had to be sufficiently abnormal to begin with to have MADE such a choice.

Here you go (article): https://ravishly.com/mistakes-i-made-divorcing-narcissist Excerpt: "One of the narcissist's favorite strategies is to couch misdeeds in terms of "concern" for you or your children. Never forget that the one and only person a narcissist cares about is himself. Expressions of caring and concern are a sign that you are being manipulated. " Did you get that? - EXPRESSIONS OF CARING AND CONCERN ARE A SIGN THAT YOU ARE BEING MANIPULATED. Show Mum. I suspect he wants to start kicking up mucho dust so that he can fiddle the Form E and its Hearing while she's too busy squinting, choking and coughing to notice things...in which case - with a Narc you *definitely* need your solicitor-appointed barrister to be a Forensic one in order that any clandestine xferences of lump sums of cash into secret accounts or temporarily into friends' and family's accounts can be noticed and clawed back into the pre-divided divorce pot.

Hey again! Puter all fixed (touch wood!). Re brother's nausea: it's a common Narc victim affliction, but try to find out for me, whether it was accompanied by upset tummy/bowels and whether it wears off once he's out of his Dud's forcefield? What I'd like to establish is whether his nausea was a flaring-up of normally milder, but ever-present (chronic) stress, or a re-visitation or previously never encountered thing (acute). And does he get that angry at the very idea of Dud or was this more about his having felt forced by Mum to fraternise with him at all, no matter how briefly? Are you guys still having family meetings and/or nights out where you discuss your grief and future plans together? Re Dishy and taking a bit of space: I like your sensible decision and healthy prioritising, and also your resourcefulness with how you intend to use that priority as your coping aid during Dishy's holiday. I'll say it again - you're an exceptionally mature and intelligent young lady, Lils. What was this in aid of, though: "And he got a phone call at the weekend (ha poor him)"? Don't you mean, lucky him? Rrrright. Empty your pockets, young lady, come on, LOL. And don't tell me you were joking, because [Dirk Bogart/Casablanca voice], 'Ov awll the jokesh in awll the woyld, she had ter go 'n pick *dat* one'. Nor that you meant because you were stressed, "too heavy" or crying hard. Even at this point (which, if he's indeed healthy, will only increase) he wouldn't care if you rang him dressed as a clown wjo;e putting on a convincing Boris Johnson voice [no association intended...no really...lol]. And surely the fact you were so well received and checked up on afterwards proves this? And yet even in hindsight we still have you saying 'poor him'? T'is a wee toxin/virus which can interfere with your fledgling romance so let's nip it in the bud, yes - still 'better out than in'? Still, asides from that, you're squeaky-clean, IMO. :-) Re Meg: Yeah, I think your Cousin and their relationship will benefit greatly from listening to your wise counsel and experiences (especially since this form of Triangulating matches what your Dud just attempted: creating in-fighting) - or even just having you in her presence and rubbing-off on her again. She's clearly being lured back in my her mum, but fully with the stick and no carrot. I also think it would be really useful exercise to try to get her and Not-Flaky together and talking/comparing notes, in your presence of course. What do you think? Because their Narc (or possibly Narcissistic-Flea-ridden/CPTSD) parent - let's just say 'potentially unhealed and problematic' - happens to be the mother, it's highly likely Meg will be able to see her own situation and circs more clearly and objectively, as well as instantly recognise her own mother in Not-Flaky's - simultaneously vice versa, of course. What do you think? Girlie get-together?

Hi! With mum and duds divorce was the e forms were being done. She doesn’t like telling me when I ask coz she thinks I’m worrying about it. From what she said ( I don’t think you’re going to be surprised,) Dud isn’t being honest about his job and how much hes earning. So My mum looked on the website where he now works, to confirm his title and it says consultant and he does minor surgery in private hospitals across the country. She suspects he’s also working out of hours in evening and weekends. Sooo that’s what’s going on at the moment. But she said she’s always done and kept spread sheets so dunno how much that will help. I knew he wasn’t going to be honest. My mum says solicitor does know a lot about narcissism and he hasn’t been surprised at the things dud has done. Bro says he was really anxious/angry at the thought of seeing dud and he was really frustrated with sis for questioning and just wants her to be completely on our side. He didn’t like my mum siding with sis because he said it reminded him that’s what dud used to do (all the time and unfairly). He has gone to drs very recently about the sick feeling in his stomach, my mum picked up on that. he says he’s been getting a dodgy tummy too on and off. Dr knows my dad and knows what’s going on at home and seems to think its IBS because of all stress. There was talk of bro having tablets to help with anxiety but he doesn’t want to take them so he’s been referred to a talking therapy thing, which he’s also not interested in but my mum told him he needs to think about doing one or the other or exercise, which he doesn’t do much of ! I’ve told him if he coming running with me if he doesn’t start helping himself a bit more :-). Hmm, no we haven’t had family time in a while. I’m on it...I think we need to start having regular chats. Errrrm with dishy comment, I think I was/still am feeling a bit insecure and not very confident. I didn’t like that dud could say something and then it caused an argument. I worried about that call after I off loaded on to him. thinking should I have called him? Why didn’t I call meg? But Dishy gave me no reason to feel like couldn't talk to him. Anyhoo he suggested emailing whilst he’s away, so I waited, and he did send one. Interesting thing he put was when he sees his mum, which is once a year in the summer, when she’s not working, he always finds it a bit awkward and to settle in her home. He’s not really talked about his mum, only his bro, dad and step mum. So I’m waiting to see if he says anymore. He might not over email. Ugh, forgot to say last time, I had to meet not-flakys mum again properly coz of the house share. I was there when I heard her mum shouted down the phone at her that ‘she couldn’t just live with anyone’ and she wanted to meet all house mates. I could of said no and made an excuse but I felt sorry for not-flaky who was like on the verge of tears. I didn’t have to do it alone coz IT Friend, (who took some persuading, he understood more after) came too, he got quizzed the most. For the rest of the time her mum went on about how much of a protective parent she is (try narcissist love) and just wants not flaky to be ok, which is why she wanted to meet us. But then she put her down by saying how she’s not going to be easy to live with and we will find her frustrating ! :-| I had to bite my tongue a lot, I just wanted to get us away from her as soon as possible. Ugh. Ahhh your girly get together suggestion, has given me an idea. Meg is not enjoying being at home. Her mum is making her feel really guilty or gives her the silent treatment every time she goes to see cuz. Cuz is apparently being depressing about the whole thing and meg is trying to get through to him that her mum does like any of her siblings partners. But cuz doesn’t seem to listening. Not-flaky, I think just needs rescuing anyway....she’s very, very shy with meeting new people and hardly utters a word. She has met meg once but I think it will take her a day or two to feel comfortable and open up. So me and meg are organising road trip to where not-flaky lives and stay somewhere near by but not too close. It will be interesting to see how similar their mums’ are. Yeah I think meg understand and sees it more clearly, and she’s not afraid to stand up for herself. I think it will really help her to talk to someone else who has a narc mum too. Not-flaky needs a bit more time coz she is scared of standing up for her self or causing offence. In the meant time I’m reading up on cptsd :-). I think bro has it too :-/.

What do you want?

That's very kind of you, "Hooo!"? (And welcome to the forum!) I'll have a Gordon's & Schweppes with ice and a slice, thanks! :-) What will you have, Lils? Cor, I like this hotel, think I'll stay. :-)

Should be with you tomorrow, Lils!

Considering the time, breakfast and tea please! :-D

And I'll have a double Manhattan

Hi Scopes :-)

Hi LILS Sorry about being out of the loop for awhile.

******************

Perhaps that's something I shouldn't have disclosed. If someone would like to omit that.

WHAT did you disclose, Scopes? The fact you like a Manhattan? Yeah. So do tens of millions of other people! LOL No worries. :-) ************************* Lils, I'm up to my ears again, working on closing a 2-year project. Wish I could tell you what it is, but, obviously, for anonymity's sake, I can't. Upshot is - can't foresee a chance to respond until the weekend. Double-bear with? Cheers. PS: Flippin' slow service round here, isn't it?.... Spitting feathers, I am... Must be a British bar... (Scopes, you'll have to have a Lager Top and a pork pie, instead)...

Thanks soulmate much appreciated. Yeah love those Manhattan's

Soulmate there isn't anything I would love more than be in a British pub having a pint of ale with a pork pie. Time to get that passport going.

Scopester - I say, old chap, are you secretly British, what-what? Lils - been trying, failing ("grr!"), trying, failing ("aargh!")....tomorrow's totally out, so I'm now looking at Sunday. So sorry, missus. Tell you what, though ("What?")...All this mad rushing around I've been doing for the past ...what is it? - two years? No! It's more, isn't it! Two-and-a-half? Well anyway - "PUNCH ME IN'T STOMACH - SEE IF AH FLINCH!". Skinny as uck, rock-'ard muscly as 'ell. I quite fancy myself, actually. :-) LOL - ignore. I'm delirious with lack of sleep.

LILS TEA TIME! Soulmate as a matter of fact there is a wee bit of British in me.

Scopes, at that very moment I was actually having tea at the end of a pier in a cafe, looking out to sea, with a book, no signal on mob and all by myself. Sounds nice don’t it? In reality I was recovering. Been helping Aunty look after her grandkids for most of last week and the weekend and they got up everyday at like 4.30 am, 5 if we were lucky! :-| Ugh. Can see why older cuz and wife wanted to get away! An email from Dishy def helped a bit. I am snackered. Whenever you can Soulmate :-)

Cheers, Lils. I'm going to have to squeeze it in now, though, because the bad news is, I'm quite possibly going to be unable to post again for three whole weeks (ach, I know, sorry!). Do keep posting, though; Scopes'll look after you - won't you Scopes? If I can, I will...I'll do my best, just can't promise anything. Oh and PS: why am I starting to get the sneaking suspicion you could possibly be at the same (hip) Uni as my son? Now wouldn't that be WELL SHPOOKAYYY?! PS: 4.30? That's nighttime! Tell Auntie to get them a Bunny Clock (go Google, assuming they still do them..although they must do, it's a life-saver). Anyhoo... I'll paste your last post back in here, save me scrolling up and down... ***************************************************************************************************************************** "With mum and duds divorce was the e forms were being done. She doesn’t like telling me when I ask coz she thinks I’m worrying about it. From what she said ( I don’t think you’re going to be surprised,) Dud isn’t being honest about his job and how much hes earning. So My mum looked on the website where he now works, to confirm his title and it says consultant and he does minor surgery in private hospitals across the country. She suspects he’s also working out of hours in evening and weekends. Sooo that’s what’s going on at the moment. But she said she’s always done and kept spread sheets so dunno how much that will help. I knew he wasn’t going to be honest." Dud could have been having his affair with that woman for *years* before he finally decided to jump ship (no doubt because he couldn't get his own way for once, like - if I recall correctly, didn't he expect you lot to relocate? "My mum says solicitor does know a lot about narcissism and he hasn’t been surprised at the things dud has done." Excellent, then you and she can relax! And you can ask me any questions, as well. So has she switched to communicating with him purely by email? "Bro says he was really anxious/angry at the thought of seeing dud and he was really frustrated with sis for questioning and just wants her to be completely on our side. He didn’t like my mum siding with sis because he said it reminded him that’s what dud used to do (all the time and unfairly)." Was she siding - or just shielding because Bro was being too overbearing and impatient with her? You might want to point out to Bro that he was mirroring his Dud's pushy, impatient and haranguing behaviour there (all Narcs can nag or harangue for England so I'm sure your Dud is no exception). That might bring him up sharp, eh. Tell him, recovering isn't just about for the time being watching out more vigilantly for incoming, but also your own outgoing. Some Narc bad habits 'get in there' without us ever realising (until someone points it out). "He has gone to drs very recently about the sick feeling in his stomach, my mum picked up on that. he says he’s been getting a dodgy tummy too on and off. Dr knows my dad and knows what’s going on at home and seems to think its IBS because of all stress. There was talk of bro having tablets to help with anxiety but he doesn’t want to take them so he’s been referred to a talking therapy thing, which he’s also not interested in but my mum told him he needs to think about doing one or the other or exercise, which he doesn’t do much of ! I’ve told him if he coming running with me if he doesn’t start helping himself a bit more :-)." LOL. That's it, you gals tell him. Also, tell him he's missing out if he doesn't take anxiety pills when offered because they're bloody miracle pills that very quickly get considered your best friend (as soon you find one that suits you as an individual, which could be first go). They give you just the lift you need to be able to tackle everything and do so completely in your stride; negative emotions calm RIGHT down and you remember what it feels like to be chilled and happy again. Not that wobbles don't still happen, but they impact less and you bounce back very quickly. The trick is not to stay on them for too long (but that's the doc's call) and to wean off gently (ditto) so as not to shock your brain into going doolally again, this time just in a different direction. Brain chemistry is a very delicately balanced thing (think internal version of eco system when you temporarily lose a specie that's vital to keeping the balance). If you lose your Tits you could end up a bit overrun with Cuckoo (groan). "Hmm, no we haven’t had family time in a while. I’m on it...I think we need to start having regular chats." Definitely. "Errrrm with dishy comment, I think I was/still am feeling a bit insecure and not very confident." LOL, ya don't say. "I didn’t like that dud could say something and then it caused an argument. I worried about that call after I off loaded on to him. thinking should I have called him? Why didn’t I call meg? But Dishy gave me no reason to feel like couldn't talk to him." So what you're saying is, might Dud be responsible for another clash, this time with Mr Important & Should Be Shielded? You're You. You're You at this point of your life, going through a, sadly, these days, pretty common experience aftermath (one severe enough to be called a phenomenon as produces a syndrome). That's what your advert said - and, having read the blub and fine print - HE said "I'LL TAKE HER!". End Of. That's what he signed up for, and vice versa. It's never about the what so much THE DEGREE. So if you don't use that 'service' to the point where it's taking a liberty - no problemo. Let HIM say or signal if he's not comfortable with anything. Fairenoughski? "Anyhoo he suggested emailing whilst he’s away, so I waited, and he did send one." Do you mean, waited without waiting (as in patient passivity happened naturally as you got on with other things)? Or 'sat by the phone'? "Interesting thing he put was when he sees his mum, which is once a year in the summer, when she’s not working, he always finds it a bit awkward and to settle in her home. He’s not really talked about his mum, only his bro, dad and step mum. So I’m waiting to see if he says anymore. He might not over email." Uh-huh, I hear ya. And yes, that gives me the impression she's COLD. I mean - just once a year in Summer says it all, don't you think? "Ugh, forgot to say last time, I had to meet not-flakys mum again properly coz of the house share. I was there when I heard her mum shouted down the phone at her that ‘she couldn’t just live with anyone’ and she wanted to meet all house mates. I could of said no and made an excuse but I felt sorry for not-flaky who was like on the verge of tears. I didn’t have to do it alone coz IT Friend, (who took some persuading, he understood more after) came too, he got quizzed the most." Yeah, funny that. Just like Meg's mum - notice? Someone who could actually 'take her away from all of this'. "For the rest of the time her mum went on about how much of a protective parent she is (try narcissist love)" (LOL!) Enmeshment City. "and just wants not flaky to be ok, which is why she wanted to meet us." No, because if she's okay, she won't need her mum so much or at all. "But then she put her down by saying how she’s not going to be easy to live with and we will find her frustrating ! :-| I had to bite my tongue a lot, I just wanted to get us away from her as soon as possible. Ugh." I'd have said, 'That's up to us, isn't it.' Or a dramatic and sarcy, 'Ohh, I'm sure we'll cope...somehow. ;-) IF NOT, WE'LL ALL CALL *YOU*! :-)' "Ahhh your girly get together suggestion, has given me an idea. Meg is not enjoying being at home. Her mum is making her feel really guilty or gives her the silent treatment every time she goes to see cuz. Cuz is apparently being depressing about the whole thing and meg is trying to get through to him that her mum does like any of her siblings partners. But cuz doesn’t seem to listening." He's taking personally, is he? Or he just could do without all that unnecessary hassle? Sounds like Cuz is being triggered. He's coming across like Bro, note ("do it, do it, do it, just do it, chuck her, go on, do it..."). She should tell him that a process takes as long as it needs to. Either he's willing to be patient or he's not. End Of (again - consult original advertisement!). "Not-flaky, I think just needs rescuing anyway....she’s very, very shy with meeting new people and hardly utters a word." Are we surprised? Sounds like everything she uttered would get her tongue-lashed. She'll come out of her shell. She just has to hit that moment of realisation: that she really IS free so it really IS safe to sit down with her massive intray of mostly toxic, psycho-emotional event/thoughts/beliefs sheets and re-read everything without the effects of being in a chronic state of fight or flight as addles the brain, and without fresh sheets being dumped on the top every 5 minutes. Poor girl. She's been dominated alright. "She has met meg once but I think it will take her a day or two to feel comfortable and open up. So me and meg are organising road trip to where not-flaky lives and stay somewhere near by but not too close. It will be interesting to see how similar their mums’ are." Excellently cunning plan all round, Lils! Very scientific and experimental, like it. (Y) Meg will probably do most of the talking to begin with, anyway, and then pretty soon NF will be gagging to join in. And then you probably won't be able to shut her up again, LOL. Still - better out than in (x 10). "Yeah I think meg understand and sees it more clearly, and she’s not afraid to stand up for herself. I think it will really help her to talk to someone else who has a narc mum too. Not-flaky needs a bit more time coz she is scared of standing up for her self or causing offence." As above comment. "In the meant time I’m reading up on cptsd :-). I think bro has it too :-/ " Keep me posted. So... Will try my very best to post over the next fortnight-plus, but don't be disappointed if I can't.

Lils and Scopes, if you've got time, please rush to support Anxxious (June 26); I'm not too happy with the responses they got; came across like victim-blaming. :-(

...And they're only young. :-(

"Soulmate as a matter of fact there is a wee bit of British in me." Thought there must be. Once you pass middle-age, your genes start acting like homing-pigeons. ...."Show mee the waytergo hooommmme...I'm tiiired an'I'wannagoterbed!.....Well, I had a liddle drinkaboudan ow-wer ago...an' it's gone straight tomyyyyy head!". From genetic pulls to a scene from Jaws, LOL. That's my cue for bed - night y'all!

Hi LILS Not forgetting about you. Hmmmm let me think here... Soulmate talks about pigeons. Yep, we have lots of them. No homing pigeons though.

Hi, Grr Dud has done the stupidest thing. He had an accident, where he fell down some stairs (so he says). He’s ok, just badly bruised, nothing broken. But he decided to take pics of his injuries and send them to sis by text saying, ‘look what your silly old dad has done! *sad face*’. Sis was obviously quite disturbed by this and she showed me and my mum. My mum called dud on sis’s phone, so he’d pick up, and asked where he was. He said he was off work recovering from his injuries. My mum told him she was going to inform her solicitor what he had done, since he clearly thought it was ok. He told her she was over reacting and hung up. Then a couple of days later he called my mum asking to talk to sis, he wanted to apologise to her, but sis refused to talk to him. She’s blocked him on her phone too. She reacted differently this time, usually she would of wanted to see him, but this time she was more shocked and confused as to why he would send her something like that. And in the last week she’s realising just how mentally ill he is. She getting it :-). So not all negative and I’m not worried now that she’ll one day side with him. Moving on from him... Ah with bro I forgot he had exams at school that’s why he’s more stressed. But yes, he did come across like a mini dud! when he was putting pressure on sis and then arguing with my mum (nope I don’t think she was siding). I did tell him he was mirroring dud, and he got very defensive at first, and didn’t want to believe he had been anything like him, but he went away and thought about it and later agreed Nope I def wasn’t waiting around for dishys email or his other ones. I’ve been keeping busy, so was nice to sit down and read them when I had the time. I am getting the impression that dishy’s mum is cold too and a workaholic! He’s tried to pin her down and spend time with her but apparently she goes into work or has a meeting. So I’m sensing he’s disappointed and frustrated but I don’t think he’s got too much longer there. Yeah Cuz is taking it too far personally, I spent one depressing evening with him at the pub where I thought I could try and cheer him up a bit. He is being a bit ‘me me me, poor me’. Megs mum hates him. Wish’s him and meg could go back to the beginning of their relationship because then it was perfect. And how he thought she was ‘the one’ but now not sure. I wasn’t going to drink, but I moved on to alcohol pdq. Ugh. I don’t think he heard anything I said. I might as well of been talking to myself. Gonna wait and see if he comes out of his gloominess. Bl**dy hope so. But megs is still upbeat and positive. Anyhoo I’m away next week with meg and NF - it’s gong to be an interesting/ fun week :-D. Going to try and reply to tiredoflife before though :-/

Hello fellow survivor of narcissistic abuse and problem solvers :p I've been visiting this site since March and have seen this thread but it was so long it always felt a bit formidable to read. Having had a fair bit of time to myself lately/being bored on night shifts at work and starting to get educated on cluster b personality disorders I'm starting to work through it now. I'm currently up to early January somewhere, just after the Christmas party. That Tom guy sounds incredibly immature, insecure and sounds like he has very little or no empathy. The fact that acquiantances seem to have a totally different and much more positive impression of him than you is very common around people with NPD I believe. It's exhausting and very difficult for them to keep up their more palatable facade for extended periods and if they feel safe dropping it with you then they will relish the opportunity. The new guy sounds much healthier so far and it's good you're finding yourself attracted to him. I'm for some reason drawn to (normal) people with higher levels of narcissism :/. It's not healthy for me and I want to understand and fix that. Hopefully I will catch up with this thread soon and I can help in some way or at least share experiences. :)

Hey Lils, Scopes - I'm back. Been abroad on biz. Obviously didn't want to say at the time. Got to get to work now but will *make* a good-sized window at the weekend. And Tired: normally we're very protective of this thread, due precisely to ignorance of Cluster B PDs or how to treat recovery victims, particularly of NPD parent(s), as can do more harm than good. However, if you're saying you've been studying it - and avidly for personal, survival reasons - then you might well be a handy addition to our little team (albeit the end decision is Lily's). Bear with me until the weekend and you and I can have a little chat about it on here. :-) Lord knows we need ready back-up - in terms of non-predictable bursts, it's all go with that [Daffy Duck voice please] despicable Dud of hers! See all three of you at the weekend, then!

PS Tired (or TOL, if you prefer?): I'll also explain your 'still attracting' issue because it's just as pertinent to Lily and any other likemindeds following this recovery thread, and is actually kick-yourself simple.

Hello all, Tiredoflife, was going to ask if you had seen/ or even read my thread partly coz Soulmate explains narcissism through out and I thought it might help you coz it’s def helped me. it’s great you are actually reading it all (and I do appreciate it’s long, nearly 4 yrs old). fine for you to join in :-).

*3 years old :-D

Here I iz. Bit late, but...better late than never. I'll just read up...

Just bringing your post forward for convenience (and number your points)... PS: He doesn't give up, does he? How long's it been now? Not that I thought he would. It's my brain: it gets it but at the same time will never get it (know what I mean?). **************************************** Hi, 1. Grr Dud has done the stupidest thing. He had an accident, where he fell down some stairs (so he says). He’s ok, just badly bruised, nothing broken. 2. But he decided to take pics of his injuries 3. and send them to sis by text 4. saying, ‘look what your silly old dad has done! *sad face*’. 5. Sis was obviously quite disturbed by this and she showed me and my mum. 6. My mum called dud on sis’s phone, so he’d pick up, 7. and asked where he was. He said he was off work recovering from his injuries. 8. My mum told him she was going to inform her solicitor what he had done, since he clearly thought it was ok. 9. He told her she was over reacting and hung up. 10. Then a couple of days later he called my mum asking to talk to sis, 11. he wanted to apologise to her, 12. but sis refused to talk to him. 13. She’s blocked him on her phone too. 14. She reacted differently this time, usually she would of wanted to see him, but this time she was more shocked and confused as to why he would send her something like that. 15. And in the last week she’s realising just how mentally ill he is. She getting it :-). 16. So not all negative and I’m not worried now that she’ll one day side with him. 17. Moving on from him... 18. Ah with bro I forgot he had exams at school that’s why he’s more stressed. 19. But yes, he did come across like a mini dud! when he was putting pressure on sis and then arguing with my mum (nope I don’t think she was siding). 20. I did tell him he was mirroring dud, and he got very defensive at first, and didn’t want to believe he had been anything like him, but he went away and thought about it and later agreed 21. Nope I def wasn’t waiting around for dishys email or his other ones. I’ve been keeping busy, so was nice to sit down and read them when I had the time. 22. I am getting the impression that dishy’s mum is cold too and a workaholic! He’s tried to pin her down and spend time with her but apparently she goes into work or has a meeting. So I’m sensing he’s disappointed and frustrated but I don’t think he’s got too much longer there. 23. Yeah Cuz is taking it too far personally, I spent one depressing evening with him at the pub where I thought I could try and cheer him up a bit. He is being a bit ‘me me me, poor me’. 24. Megs mum hates him. 25. Wish’s him and meg could go back to the beginning of their relationship because then it was perfect. 26. And how he thought she was ‘the one’ but now not sure. 27. I wasn’t going to drink, but I moved on to alcohol pdq. 28. Ugh. I don’t think he heard anything I said. 29. I might as well of been talking to myself. 30. Gonna wait and see if he comes out of his gloominess. Bl**dy hope so. 31. But megs is still upbeat and positive. 32. Anyhoo I’m away next week with meg and NF - it’s gong to be an interesting/ fun week :-D. Going to try and reply to tiredoflife before though :-/ ************************************** Note, I've deliberately re-read everything recent, UP to your post because I wanted to respond with my gut, point-by-point. 1. Indeed: so he says. But it'll do as a Pity Ploy (since nothing else is working). I mean - how conveniently timed, eh? Not saying it isn't true. But [i] because he's a Narc, it's 'guilty until proven innocent'. And [ii] considering it's just bruising - why do YOU GUYS have to know about it? 2. Took photos. Right - Pity Ploy it is (or was). Whether an accident actually happened is immaterial. The point is, he saw it as an opportunity to curry sympathy/attention/softening-up---special dispensation. 3. To sis. Okay, it was for her benefit, first and foremost. 4. 'Your silly old dad'. That's him trying to present himself to her as a benign entity... the dad of old - the pretend one with the artificially better (not best, obviously) foot forward when, back then, the act still served him. All of that adds up to emotional manipulation/blackmail. 5. He knew she most likely would. 6. Clever tack. But would he not have, otherwise? (So what exactly was the accident - has he actually said and described how it happened?) 7. Off work, recovering. So he says. Or did she ask where he was because her attempt to get him via his work switchboard had failed? 8. Tick for mum! 9. Oh, and he *wasn't* overreacting re the 'injury' and bringing it to sis's attention? Typical hypocrisy alert!...'Do as I say, not as I do'. Hung up on her? Wow. This is one of their lunacy hallmarks. You'd think he'd want to placate her so that she decided against reporting it to her brief (as will influence the Family Court judge's (cough!) advice to counsel regarding settlement-figure parameters), wouldn't you? But preserving their overblown thus highly burst-able ego comes before absolutely anything and everything (hence they're all knee-jerk with 'no regard for consequences'). So he did as his ego bid: the very opposite - antagonised her further as would make her reporting him MORE likely. 10. Oh? Why didn't he phone sis direct? Tactic alert! - this case, an opportunity to take mum's temperature, see if it'd changed/lowered. 11. ...and (in case it hadn't) to 'mock-placate' mum after the fact. 12. Excellent - progress! 13. Oh joy! You must be SO relieved (bro especially LOL). 14. Again, what exactly were the contents of the pictures? 15. Well, we knew she WOULD, it was just a matter of time. 16. Hold yer horses, Kenosabe! First she'll go through a phase of swinging back-and-forth like a pendulum...until it loses kenesis or he deals what I call The Final Insult, the thing that tips the scales to where they should be. He will. It's what they can't help but do. 17. I hope it wasn't me you were trying to spare the tedium? If you want to dissect it more - feel free. 18. Ah! Not a good combo. 19. So she was 'merely' shielding sis. Noted. 20. Unsurprisingly. But I note you say 'at first'. So let's now watch what a (I feel safe in presuming) HEALTHY ego does following the knee-jerk - and how quickly. (FYI, the normal, healthy human takes no more than 20 minutes to calm back down and think straight/lose self-defensiveness.) PS: watch this: "he got very defensive at first" : Anger (+ Fight - as in Fight (or Freeze) or Flight. "and didn’t want to believe he had been anything like him" : Shock + Denial "but he went away and thought about it and later agreed" : Flight + Solution-seeking + Plea Bargaining + mini-Depression = Acceptance. See that? That's a complete, albeit mini, Grieving Process *right there*! It obviously impacted him hugely. (Were you gentle? How gentle out of 10?) ********** 21. Oooh - get her! LOL (Gold Star :-)) Do you know what you've got that most others don't, Lils? The ability to discern and learn by other people's mistakes. That is PRICELESS. Never lose it. It'll save you a whole heap of crap. (However, keep it balanced; some things you definitely need to risk trying yourself. But saying that, I'm sure you'd be able to differentiate which.) PS: What was the time lapse between receiving and reading - and then responding? 22. By necessity or out of avoidance? There's a difference between having to work or no food gets put on the table and/or one might get fired, and putting work first for no good reason. Before we hang, draw and quarter her - which is it, do you know? Does he? 23. Me-me-me through injury or conditioned-in habit? 24. She doesn't even know him (and clearly doesn't want to)...hates the mere idea of him, more like. (Ensure he knows he could be *anyone* and it'd make no difference.) (...bar celebrity or royalty, perhaps.) 25. Sorry - WHO wishes? And (was perfect) - says who? Strike that, you've just answered it. (He does.) 26. He thought she was the one until he found out (first-hand as the brunt) she had a personality disordered mother? That's a bit fickle and fair-weathered, isn't it? Or is it emotional blackmail, via the presumably/anticipateably reliable messenger called Lily? 27. So he was whining and whinging and not listening, then? Strike again, LOL. 28. Not really. It goes in anyway. 30. How long's it been so far? 31. In what regard? Details, please? 32. Cool.

Scopes, "Soulmate as a matter of fact there is a wee bit of British in me." Reminds me of a tongue-in-cheek chat-up line: 'Do you have any British in you?' 'No?' 'Do you want some?' :-D

Hi TOD, Where in the thread have you got to now?

Lils - tsk!, typo...should read Kemosabe (pronounced Keemo-sah-beh).

PS you three: I'll be around tomorrow.

TOD - "Duh" to me, I've just remembered 'who' you are and that I posted briefly on your thread before I went away. Hmm. It's all a bit fresh for you, still. I'm not sure how Lily would benefit from your input so much as the other way around. So are you asking to test your knowledge via contributing, based on short but very intensive studying of the topic, or hoping to learn more from us? There's no wrong answer, btw.

BTW Lils, look at this (spotted during my re-read): From Nov 9 2018: "Lily, I bought you some flowers. Regrettably, however, I ate them. But it's the thought that counts, right? [Narc pee-take joke]" And then came this Easter. It's a shame you can't send me samples of him 'talking' (text/email) or I'm sure I could 'get in his head' and predict his more imminent moves.

I remember reading both :-D. I kinda wish what I could predict what he’s going to do next! +0(

Hi, Nope, dud hasn't said or described what happened exactly, just that it happened at work, but I don’t really believe it and I don’t feel sorry for him. It doesn’t make me feel sad that he had an accident, like I would if it was my mum, aunty or a friend. I don’t actually know how I feel about it, probably coz I don’t know the truth! I’m just struggling to get my head round the fact he sent these pics to sis and then we all saw them. Bros theory is dud probably said something offensive to the wrong person and he got beaten up. Somehow, that feels closer to the truth coz dud is abrasive, and rude with people. More so at work, where he doesn’t have a great bedside manner and come across all pompous and up himself. Anyway one photo was of his ugly mug, which did look bruised and swollen. What I don't get was in the pic he was wearing broken glasses...probably for affect and justice of pic. Another one of his arm just looked like he had scraped it. And last one was of his upper body (ew), he had bruising around his chest/rib cage. It looked like someone else had taken that pic. (Put moving on last time coz I didn’t want to think about him anymore, I was struggling with why he had done. ) Yep, I was gentle with bro, (9 out of 10) I tried to find the right time too. Any mention of dud at the moment and he doesn’t like it, he either changes the conversation pretty quick or he gets angry. So me saying to him he was mirroring dud that time, he didn’t like hearing at all but I think it needed to be pointed out to him. His gf has told me she’s a little bit worried about him sometimes with his anger & he’s very anxious about exam results and this thing (she’s not sure if it’s a unhealthy obsession, I’m not sure either he’s clever enough, and maybe he genuinely does) of wanting to go to med school/be a doctor because through conversations she’s had with him at the moment he won’t consider anything else. Might change, there’s two whole years before he has to think about uni. she’s good person to talk to if I’m worried about him (y). Sis is currently being distracted by a boy :-). The one she plays football with at school and who defends her a lot against bully girls. she’s seem ok atm when I thought after what dud did she might not be. Keeping an eye on her still tho. Well cuz has changed his tune (thank god). Our girly trip away clearly made him miss meg and by the end of the week he was sending her gooey texts. Meg stood firm ( I knew she would) and told him they’d talk properly when she got back, which I’m assuming they have coz I’ve not heard much from her. I think she was still remaining up beat coz she was so looking forward to hol and getting away from her mum for week she was literally counting down the days/hours . She wasn’t going to let his negativity get in the way. And I think she thought/hoped a week away from each other would help him. I’m waiting an update. The girly week away def helped meg and NF, they got on really well, but comparing note with one another (the conversations were quite deep, few tears, And meg questioned why I had a box of tissues ready) def helped and was very therapeutic. I really didn’t like dropping NF off at her house at the end of the hol knowing what she had to go back to though, and I’m talking to her most days. I dislike her mum even now. She tried to make things difficult by saying she wouldn’t drive NF (Nf doesn’t drive) to hol place for the first day and *maybe* drop her off on 2nd or 3rd day (more like never). I wasn’t having that and told NF I’d pick her up. When meg and I got to NF’s house, her mum, of course hovering around her and made clear to me she was annoyed I had come to pick her up by saying to me quite angrily ‘you didn’t need to come and pick her up!’. I was like ‘yes, I did, I didn’t want her to miss out’ *fake smile*. OMG NF looked like a different person at home. Her hair done (never bothers with her hair at uni ), she was wearing make up (again, never bothers to put any on) and quite smartly dressed. Just not NF as I know her. I could tell she was uncomfortable and it was all her mum which she confirmed it was later on hol. And it showed the amount of control she’s under at home I think. I saw dishy at the weekend I didn’t actually know he was back until he texted me :-). He’s very lovely :-). And he did he driving again and came to me. With his mum he said it got to the end of his stay and he was feeling frustrated he hadn’t got to spend much time with her and that she kept disappearing off to work or meetings. He didn’t know if he had done something wrong or if she was struggling in some way, so he took her out for drinks and he talked to her and he told her he wants to see her more(Was to do with work). I though it was a nice/mature way to handle it. If that had been Tom he would have got stroppy and argued if his mum did that to him. My mum and aunty have had and argument and are not talking at the mo. This fallout happened after dud sent his pics. They’re both being stubborn and both refusing to talk at the moment and I don’t like it but don’t think it will last long, they’ve argued before and made up. My mum is saying aunty talks down to her a lot if the time, undermines her and tells her what to do with regards to dud and other things. She used the example of when aunty came round after we last discussed family counselling with dud and aunty told bro off for being aggressive towards sis and mum and for swearing. My mum said she didn’t need her to do that, she had already done it. I was saying to my mum (whilst trying to encourage her to talk to aunty) I think what’s happened is she had changed so much and her confidence/self esteem is soo much better and her job has really helped with her with realise she’s able to deal with things. She’s being protective of her new self and I can understand why and Aunty I think still needs to realise this, it’s probably what she been used to doing . I think she just needs to be less ...bossy :-/.

Small update, dud has sent sibs and I an invite to his ‘birthday party’ (what is he 4?!). I don’t know why but I find it quite amusing after what he’s did recently. He's never had friends, my mum was the one who made the effort to befriended people who are now her friends but not his. so I can’t quite see who else would be going to this *party*. Apart from his gf, potentially being there. Unless he’s actually been nice to people... There’s a teeny, tiny bit of me that’s curious, more out of interest and to analyse. Dishy has offered to go with me but I know it’s a trap.

Bear with...Screamingly busy again so all I've time to say, for now is: his birthday party, his power...even if it wasn't a trap, it'd soon turn into one (Narcs ruin all special occasions...for everyone else, that is). Why on EARTH would he think you'd go, after the way he's consistently been treating you all? Utter MADNE-...oh, wait. LOL. See you this weekend if not sooner.

(...or later...*sigh*) I think the reason you don't feel sorry for him is simple: it was a Pity Ploy. Either someone did beat him up (punch to his face, punch to the guts, scrapes arm on tarmac/whatever as he falls... can you picture it?) and he tried to make Narc lemonade out of those lemons, like the extreme opportunists they are, or ....good god, the only 'or' is, he did it himself because he was that desperate for attention and contact. (Desperate is as Desperate does.) He might well, you see, genuinely feel bereft without you guys around all the time like before, Lils (so that's one theory for the Why). But the point is always this: they bring all it on themselves. Needlessly (by sane standards). If you pander to the ploy and show you feel sorry for them - whereby you let it affect/direct you somehow, and they see that - then you've basically signed up for Pity Ploy Groundhog Day...until you inevitably run *out* of any compassion where they're concerned. Because there's always another 'car crash' or 'calamity', just around the corner. You start to realise your sympathy is pointless, meaningless and futile. Plus you start to feel like a brick wall. Eat, sleep, drama, repeat... It's like 'living with' someone who KEEPS insisting, time and time again, on placing their own hand on the live hob ring. You end up wanting (emphasis on wanting) to shake them violently by the shoulders, yelling, FOR GOD'S SAKE, WHAT IS THE *MATTER* WITH YOU!?!, or, FOR GOD'S SAKE, CAN'T YOU EVER LEARN?!? - if they're not the physically aggressive type, obviously. But it still leaves you feeling uncomfortable by flying in the face of your own, normal standards of habitual behaviour towards people generally. However, you're ultimately doing them a grave disservice if you pander and accommodate. Because they have to be allowed to hit rock bottom before they'll admit they've a problem and seek help. Anything else is Enabling/Managing. "come across all pompous and up himself." He IS pompous and up himself. Or so he spends his life desperately trying to convince himself he is, while constantly roping all others into saying/showing they agree with him. PS: We can't assume there's anything strange about bro's level of determination to get into med school. Frankly, anyone who doesn't have that strength of drive won't make it. I mean, revenge or equalisation or justice - or all three bundled together - even merely in the form of sticking two fingers up - is one thing, but I doubt anyone would go as far as to commit to long, hard years at medical school to see it done. There are too many other, easier ways. So he must have had a genuine interest separate from your father, I reckon. And then your father would have tipped him over the edge on that score. The anger's understandable, and necessary, but - so long as he's not taking it out on her(?). Good, I'm glad sis is bonding to that boy. One, he's obviously kind, and two, it shows she's made good recovery progress. She could, however, be wanting to combine boyfriend and dad figure in one (the BOGOF). In which case, it won't last. But that doesn't matter because at their ages, it tends not to anyway. Anyhoo, I'll answer the rest tomorrow night and/or Wednesday as it's late and I'm up early tomorrow (I hope!). Night!

"Meh" Just - "meh". Sorry, Lils. Bear with as per...I haven't forgotten you.

FINALLY...! "Well cuz has changed his tune (thank god). Our girly trip away clearly made him miss meg and by the end of the week he was sending her gooey texts. Meg stood firm ( I knew she would) and told him they’d talk properly when she got back, which I’m assuming they have coz I’ve not heard much from her." I'm impressed with her resolve, I must say. Usually, women pounce on the goo and all is instantly forgiven. So I like that she didn't let it sway her from putting her foot down. Again, good sign. It would seem that Meg is a slow starter but a very fast finisher. "I think she was still remaining up beat coz she was so looking forward to hol and getting away from her mum for week she was literally counting down the days/hours . She wasn’t going to let his negativity get in the way. And I think she thought/hoped a week away from each other would help him. I’m waiting an update." Yeah, I hope she didn't fold the minute she clapped eyes on him. Texted goo is one thing, but resisting the pull of chemistry is another entirely. "The girly week away def helped meg and NF, they got on really well, but comparing note with one another (the conversations were quite deep, few tears, And meg questioned why I had a box of tissues ready) def helped and was very therapeutic." Did you submit your own notes for comparison? "I really didn’t like dropping NF off at her house at the end of the hol knowing what she had to go back to though, and I’m talking to her most days. I dislike her mum even [more?] now. She tried to make things difficult by saying she wouldn’t drive NF (Nf doesn’t drive) to hol place for the first day and *maybe* drop her off on 2nd or 3rd day (more like never). I wasn’t having that and told NF I’d pick her up. When meg and I got to NF’s house, her mum, of course hovering around her and made clear to me she was annoyed I had come to pick her up by saying to me quite angrily ‘you didn’t need to come and pick her up!’. I was like ‘yes, I did, I didn’t want her to miss out’ *fake smile*." Good God - and good on ya! Bet her mum 'hates' you by now...but if so, it just shows you're healthy (and, dependent on the ferocity, to what degree). "OMG NF looked like a different person at home. Her hair done (never bothers with her hair at uni ), she was wearing make up (again, never bothers to put any on) and quite smartly dressed. Just not NF as I know her. I could tell she was uncomfortable and it was all her mum which she confirmed it was later on hol. And it showed the amount of control she’s under at home I think." Bloody Nora. Poor NF, crikey. There's manipulatively controlling and then there's puppeteer from Hell. (We know which one she is, don't we, children.) "I saw dishy at the weekend I didn’t actually know he was back until he texted me :-)." LOL, you cool cat, you. "He’s very lovely :-)." Ahhhh... :-) I'm sure he thinks you're lovely too, Lils. "And he did he driving again and came to me." Tick!... but then, evidently, he's long been taught to do all the running, hasn't he (click-ping!). "With his mum he said it got to the end of his stay and he was feeling frustrated he hadn’t got to spend much time with her and that she kept disappearing off to work or meetings. He didn’t know [*]if he had done something wrong or if she was struggling in some way, so he took her out for drinks and he talked to her and he told her he wants to see her more(Was to do with work). I though it was a nice/mature way to handle it. If that had been Tom he would have got stroppy and argued if his mum did that to him." * So which was it? (And yes, I agree.) (Ditto re Tom Thumb) (who might well always be thumb-sized, from what we saw). "My mum and aunty have had and argument and are not talking at the mo. This fallout happened after dud sent his pics. They’re both being stubborn and both refusing to talk at the moment and I don’t like it but don’t think it will last long, they’ve argued before and made up." That's sisters with difficult parents for ya. "My mum is saying aunty talks down to her a lot if the time, undermines her and tells her what to do with regards to dud and other things. She used the example of when aunty came round after we last discussed family counselling with dud and aunty told bro off for being aggressive towards sis and mum and for swearing. My mum said she didn’t need her to do that, she had already done it. I was saying to my mum (whilst trying to encourage her to talk to aunty) I think what’s happened is she had changed so much and her confidence/self esteem is soo much better and her job has really helped with her with realise she’s able to deal with things. She’s being protective of her new self and I can understand why and Aunty I think still needs to realise this, it’s probably what she been used to doing . I think she just needs to be less ...bossy :-/." Gold star, Lils - you're bang-on! "Heeelp meeeeee!............................................STOP TRYING TO HELP ME!". LOL Very common stuff. So!.......... Has dud's party been and gone? If not: "Unless he’s actually been nice to people..." Yeah, they're always nicer in the run-up to their *own* birthday. What else has been happening since you last posted? And are you and Dishy enjoying this week's heatwave?

PS: What happened to Tired of Life, then? LOL, I suddenly realised, over on TOL's thread, that I'd been acronym-ing their alias incorrectly to TOD....But now I'm thinking - hmm...maybe I had a premonition and so subconsciously pre-acronymed Tired Of Dud? LOL, I wouldn't put it past me (I'm a bit spooky like that....or just very good at extrapolating even from subtle clues? .....Nah - I prefer spooky, LOL).

Whew!user error!

Yes what happened at duds party?

Sorry LILS and soulmate I've been away for so long that I thought that my password had expired. I resubmitted my email again, that was the user error.

Hi, Yeah, duds party has been and gone this weekend. At the beginning of last week my mum surprised sibs and I with a hol, which we all really needed and we had a nice, relaxing time. I don’t think sibs argued once (y). We did lots of bonding, lots of talking and it kinda feels we’re all happily on the same page now :-). We were away for the run up to duds party too. I def can picture dud getting beaten up and even him hurting himself just to get attention and contact. My mum doesn’t believe he fell down the stairs at work either. Whilst talking about him on hol she said that after they were married got he got banned from the local pub where they lived and she was so embarrassed and clearly never forgotten it! I’m slightly dreading up coming birthdays and Christmas because I have an uncomfortable feeling dud is plotting. Yes, I did talk about dud a bit, more after NF and meg talked about their mums’. Like you said once meg started talking NF did and then she didn’t stop coz I think she was slowly realising. And Since girly hol, been a few weeks now, NF has told me that she’s started to distance herself from her mum and saying no to her or arguing back, apparently she’s never done this. Her mums reactions are anger or tries to make her feel bad by saying NF is being ‘horrible’. I think she might need to be a little bit careful but the new confident her is slowly coming out, there a rebellious streak in her too :-). I think her mum does hate me, which doesn’t bother me in the slightest :-D. Yeah I saw dishy today, another really nice day :-D I’m quite excited. He doesn’t seem to mind doing the travelling. Im seeing him at the end of the week too but with meg, cuz and NF, we are all meeting half way. I’m pleased for him, coz his mum is coming to see him at Christmas, apparently she hasn’t been to uk for years :-/. It sounds like she’s got a high pressured job with not a nice boss! Ugh talking if Tom unfortunately he ended up serving me and sis (we didn’t have a choice) at his workplace before hol. Sis kinda took over and he got all cocky coz I didn’t say hi when he did, and said to me ‘aren’t you going to talk to me?’. Er no... He’s got an interesting look going on since he’s decided to dye his hair...He then told us informed us he’s moving back to Cornwall coz he’s got a job there. Woohoo good to know soon I won’t have to worry about seeing him. good riddance tw*t face. Ugh it’s like with dud, he is just ugly to me now and boring. Haha tired of dud! I’m sooo tired of dud. Dunno where Tired of Life has gone, I thought they were going to be a good addition to thread.

(Scopes, what are you apologising for?) Lils, 1. "and it kinda feels we’re all happily on the same page now" Edit: I can feel we're all happily on the same page now. Please stop being so timid about your incredible talent, it's very important. Your incredible senses=instincts, analytical insight, innately natural fluency of comprehension of human behaviour, and problem-solving resourcefulness/mental agility are your combinational armour and muscle power - which in your case are made of Titanium. (What am I going to do with you two, eh? LOL...oughta bang your over-humble heads together, mumble-mumble...) "I def can picture dud getting beaten up and even him hurting himself just to get attention and contact. My mum doesn’t believe he fell down the stairs at work either. " There you go! No watering-down there, note? "Def[initely]". You're confident you know all there is to know about what your father is (and is not); the obstacle as is the root of your perfect-kilter deficit is accepting what you ought now know about what *you* are (and as such, can do) and your right to call even THAT 'emperor, naked'. Empaths are sensitive, deeply insightful and brave. You're a Supernova Empath. You're practically telepathic, missus. If you FEEL IT, it's because it's there to be felt - end of. You might misread thus mis-conclude over your cocktail of signals from rare time to time (albeit, even then only to the extent of 'right forest, wrong tree'). But those few 'failures' (practise sessions) are more than worth the otherwise non-stop, ever-increasing successes. How many years have I been posting with you now? WHY? Which other forum visitor - on any of the forums I've worked for - have I EVER done that for- sorry, WANTED to do that for/with? I'll tell ya: only one other person on the planet. I know my onions. And you iz my onion. (- Nope - sober as a judge!) YOU FEEL IT IS SO = IT *IS* SO. Look deeply into your eyes in the mirror and say it out-loud to yourself WITH MEANING, 15 times. That lack of self-belief is needlessly limiting. So imagine what you could nano-second compute without that mental shackle? ....and thank God they no longer burn or drown (White) witches!! LOL-but-seriously. We'll have you working for MI6 yet, my lassie. (joke) That's that bit and I'll be back on tomorrow night (just spotted the time - yikes!).

I dunno Soulmate I'm all confused

LOL, Scopes!

(Page 2) "I’m slightly dreading up coming birthdays and Christmas because I have an uncomfortable feeling dud is plotting." Yeah, me too. What, out of interest, little signs and pattern habits have you picked up on (if discernible)? Or is it solely in feeling format? "Yes, I did talk about dud a bit, more after NF and meg talked about their mums’. Like you said once meg started talking NF did and then she didn’t stop coz I think she was slowly realising." It's brilliant when that happens, isn't it. (Not that they can't start swinging back and forth for a while from there...but that soon wears off.) "And Since girly hol, been a few weeks now, NF has told me that she’s started to distance herself from her mum and saying no to her or arguing back, apparently she’s never done this. Her mums reactions are anger or tries to make her feel bad by saying NF is being ‘horrible’. I think she might need to be a little bit careful but the new confident her is slowly coming out, there a rebellious streak in her too :-)." Instead of acting out, she should be honest and tell it straight (emotionless, like Spock, so they can't pick on your reactions in order to divert the topic) about why she's saying no and wanting space. Then she can be sure she's made her whole new attitude clear. That way, if her mum STILL keeps behaving like that, NF can't torture herself with the thought that her mother didn't quite get it because she didn't explain properly. 'Because I don't like the way you treat me/speak to me' says it all. It'll come anyway, but in the meantime it would save on wasting time and yet more arguments and resentments on both sides. "I think her mum does hate me, which doesn’t bother me in the slightest :-D." LOL. Here's a favourite 'full stopper' of mine - which you can borrow ...cuz Ah larks ya ("ahhh..." LOL): 'I'm very relieved you think so badly of me - and please, continue. Frankly, if you rated me I'D BE IN SERIOUS TROUBLE!'. (Nuff said. Then walk off as the poor dears desperately try to work it out, LOL.) 'Yeah I saw dishy today, another really nice day :-D I’m quite excited. He doesn’t seem to mind doing the travelling. Im seeing him at the end of the week too but with meg, cuz and NF, we are all meeting half way.' Ooh, I say... Somebody's starting to fall in love. :-) "I’m pleased for him, coz his mum is coming to see him at Christmas, apparently she hasn’t been to uk for years :-/. It sounds like she’s got a high pressured job with not a nice boss!" Is that a direct result of his talk with her? Well, most of us have a high pressured job with not a nice boss, Lils, but that doesn't give us all carte blanche to neglect our offspring to the point where it starts to make them genuinely, chronically unhappy with the relationship whereby they're having to confide in others about it, does it. That's just called 'too far up your own a*se' to remember your precious others have feelings. Anyway, did it never occur to her that if she had a far more satisfactory, leading to even joyous relationship with her 'newly adult' child, her work life and obnoxious boss would feel increasingly less important all the way to trivial (and maybe even, pleasing dinner-party-anecdote fodder?). Well anyway, she'll find out, now that he's given her that little wake-up slap. But what's she doing overseas anyway? Are they foreign or did she emigrate over there to wherever? "Ugh talking if Tom unfortunately he ended up serving me and sis (we didn’t have a choice) at his workplace before hol." Fate provides. I reckon. But I've deliberately (uuuurrgh, nerves of steel!, LOL) not looked at the following paragraph because I like to see my micro-predictions come true (- don't tell me to get a life - this IS my life! LOL)... "Sis kinda took over and he got all cocky coz I didn’t say hi when he did, and said to me ‘aren’t you going to talk to me?’. Er no..." :-D How could you, Lily? You're SO CRUEL! After all, what did he do to you? It's not like he CHEATED on you while talking and treating you like a piece of sh*t on his shoe or anything? But anyway, there we go: little victory dance for me, LOL...cos that's what I THOUGHT was coming, oh, yeah, baby. And - TICK! "He’s got an interesting look going on since he’s decided to dye his hair..." Has he dyed it Red & Black and stuck horns in it? And are you sure it's self-inflicted rather than some highly just metamorphosis starting to take place? [makin' meself laff, that's the main thing] So did you actually SAY 'er, no'? Or just again say nothing? "He then told us informed us he’s moving back to Cornwall coz he’s got a job there." OOOH, NOOO, TOM - DON'T GO, I STILL LOVE YOOOOU, I'M SORRY I DIDN'T ANSWER YOU A MINUTE AGOOOO,....DON'T GOOOOOOO, DON'T LEEEAVE MEEEE, LET'S TRY AGAAAIIIIIN!!!!!..........................................................................................................Nah. Go. "Woohoo good to know soon I won’t have to worry about seeing him. good riddance tw*t face. Ugh it’s like with dud, he is just ugly to me now and boring." Yep. And pathetic and stupid and how on EARTH did a little idiot dweeb-boy like that have you so upset? Answer: simple reflexes in response to copious button-pushing; nothing more because there IS nothing more! "Haha tired of dud! I’m sooo tired of dud." Me too. ("Me too!" / "And me!....And him over there!") LOL "Dunno where Tired of Life has gone, I thought they were going to be a good addition to thread." TOPP (Tired of People's Problems LOL) (Never mind - more for us. :-)) Any more developments?

He's still morbidly fascinating, though. That's another shutter-upper I've used on them: "Don't worry. You'll always be morbidly fascinating to me. Bye [slam]".

It’s definitely a feeling that I get with dud and it’s usually around birthdays but he didn’t bother with bro’s birthday this year so I’m hoping he doesn’t bother with anyone else’s! He also likes to do the odd/disturbing thing as we know, when I’m not prepared for it too! We’ll see...My mum seems to be ahead on this and has told me not to worry she’s planned things this year with birthdays and Christmas. I’m Pleased she’s on this and organised. Also been thinking about duds gp partner/only friend, from his old work place and the fact that all summer hes been quite persistently, asking me to go into the surgery and do admin work. Each time he emphasised how desperate he was for the work to be done. I said no every time coz it just didn’t feel right going back into dud’s old workplace. I’m now 100% certain dud had something to do with this and he would most likely of make an appearance. He’s a sneaky git! I now don’t trust Gp friend either. Talking of narc parents (seriously had enough of them after this weekend!), moved into uni house and I had prepared myself mentally for NF’s mum coz I knew I would see her. First of all she told IT friend go and smoke further down the garden, he argued with her, when I didn’t think he would! She was like ‘NF certainly doesn’t smoke and I don’t want you near her when your smoking!’. haha I tried not to look at NF when her mum said that coz shows how much she doesn’t know her. She doesn’t smoke a lot, but the first thing she did buy was cigarettes on girly hol, and I don’t blame her! Then her mum decided that she was going to clean the whole house for us. It had already been cleaned by professional cleaners but apparently it wasn’t up to her standards. she hinted heavily that we should stay and help her but NF and I had planned to go out...If the house was that bad then I would of stayed and helped coz I don’t like mess but it was clean. NF didn’t back down either and had told her mum not to, but she was insisted, so we left her to it. On the way back NF said to me she wouldn’t be surprised if her mum a bad mood because she didn’t stay and help. she didn’t seem to be in a mood, but she definitely wanted us to be very thankful, be praised and acknowledge how much work she did. She took us into each room and listed off what she had done. she labelled all the bl**dy cupboards drawers. So uni house now smells of bleach and we are peeling off all the labels... she also unpacked all of NF’s clothes and arranged them into outfits...I hope we don’t see her till Christmas...she is quite interesting to analyse though and see what she does/comes out of her mouth next. She must think she’s is such an amazing, helpful person. Bit like dud I guess! On the plus side, I like uni house, much better then halls (Y). With dishy we yeah might be falling for him quite a lot but...I like that it’s still going slowly, it might pick up a bit now we’re back at uni and he’s only a few streets away, going to wait and see. His mum is French Canadian, his dad and step mum are English. His brother is his stepbrother, that was confusing coz they’re very close in age! His mum and dad divorced, she moved back, and him and his dad always travelled to her, so dishy could see her, until he was old enough to go alone. Dishy says they’ve been talking Skype but I don’t know if that’s him making all the effort. Coz that’s what he seems to do. developments, my mum said something about the divorce being finalised soon. That will be good. Bro really, really want to change surname to my mums maiden name :-/...she’s not sure. bro is now doing talking therapies thing and he’s on antidepressants. He did really well in his exams and so he decided to do both things, so he can carry on doing well! Not going to question him aspiring to be a doctor anymore coz if he really want to then he’ll show it and work hard. my mum and auntie are finally talking - took them a bit longer to make up the usual They started talking but then my mum got annoyed with auntie again. Auntie realised she had caused offence said sorry, suggested they had a day out together, so is trying to change how she talks to my mum. Think my mum needs to be a little bit more patient too!

Ever will the day come when dud will humble himself. Such a shame to forget your own children's birthday.

Snowed-under again... - bear with for a few more days, Lils! Got time for one thing, though: "Also been thinking about duds gp partner/only friend, from his old work place and the fact that all summer hes been quite persistently, asking me to go into the surgery and do admin work. Each time he emphasised how desperate he was for the work to be done. I said no every time coz it just didn’t feel right going back into dud’s old workplace. I’m now 100% certain dud had something to do with this and he would most likely of make an appearance. He’s a sneaky git! I now don’t trust Gp friend either." Well done. Yes, I'm a grown adult GP and my male practise partner and friend has, I know, divorced. Messily and upsetingly for all concerned. His daughter, from whom I also know, he's estranged, used to help out in the surgery quite a lot. Do I think it's appropriate to invite her back to a place that holds strong memories, which are probably going to trigger upset? I'm innocent: My choice of action suggests I'm socially clueless and insensitive to the point of immature, not to mention gullible ("It's them, not me"). Narc attracts Flying Monkey. I'm guilty: No wonder they got on so well. Like attracts Like (and they no doubt do each other favours all the time...if it serves them). It's not looking good either way, is it. 'I appreciate you're desperate, but please stop pressuring me. You've asked me - a number of times, which counts as haranguing, given that each time I've said No, perfectly firmly, I feel. I don't wish to fall out with you, but I'd like you to accept my repeat answer in the negative and abstain henceforth from asking. If you contact me one more time about this, no matter via what avenue, I'm afraid I will have to consider it Harassment. I wish you luck with finding another casual assistance.' 'PS: Up Yours'. ;-)

1. "It’s definitely a feeling that I get with dud and it’s usually around birthdays but he didn’t bother with bro’s birthday this year so I’m hoping he doesn’t bother with anyone else’s! He also likes to do the odd/disturbing thing as we know, when I’m not prepared for it too! We’ll see...My mum seems to be ahead on this and has told me not to worry she’s planned things this year with birthdays and Christmas. I’m Pleased she’s on this and organised." I'm with Scopes - that is just disgusting. Good for Mumdad (here it is, as predicted - her realisation that she's mum and dad AND always was :-)). Don't ever abbreviate it, though. She might become Mad. (hur-hur...groan) 2. "Also been thinking about duds gp partner/only friend, from his old work place and the fact that all summer hes been quite persistently, asking me to go into the surgery and do admin work. Each time he emphasised how desperate he was for the work to be done. I said no every time coz it just didn’t feel right going back into dud’s old workplace. I’m now 100% certain dud had something to do with this and he would most likely of make an appearance. He’s a sneaky git! I now don’t trust Gp friend either." Another thing ("aaaand another thing!..."): Who does that?...asks again and again and again AND AGAIN? Oh wait! We know this one, don't we children: 'Narcissistic personality disordereds are typically huge nags/pests' TUH...ICK! Is that verification I see before me? YUH...UP! (They can cooperate with each other, giant note.) (- which 'nagging', note, s/he added swiftly, is different from normal, perfectly reasonable nagging aka tearing one's hair out at one's 'partner's' passive-aggressive refusals to comply or cooperate; here, we're talking PUSHY as a way to get what they want at your expense by wearing you down...psychological water torture). 3. "Talking of narc parents (seriously had enough of them after this weekend!), moved into uni house and I had prepared myself mentally for NF’s mum coz I knew I would see her." Uh-oh. "First of all she told IT friend go and smoke further down the garden," Paaardon? "he argued with her," Good! Who the hell does she think-...oh, wait, yeah... "when I didn’t think he would!" You've set the tone, missus. You first...and then all the little sheepies follow, LOL. (Are you realising just how socially braver than other people your age you are, yet?) "She was like ‘NF certainly doesn’t smoke and I don’t want you near her when your smoking!’." (OH, FFFFFFFF............ **K OFF, WILL YOU?!) (Sorry - but, REALLY. This goes too far beyond normal difficulty in releasing the umbilical. These t*ssers get on my round objects. Ach.) (*insert apologies on loop*) So what was his comeback? But, nah. What she's really saying is just, 'I don't want you near her [and your happening to be a smoker is the perfect justification for my unreasonable level of coercive-control-freakery'). I think NF should insist on her giving her pocket-money and doing all her weekly washing. Oh, and hoovering. (LOL, am I giving you ideas?) "haha I tried not to look at NF when her mum said that coz shows how much she doesn’t know her. She doesn’t smoke a lot, but the first thing she did buy was cigarettes on girly hol, and I don’t blame her!" HA-HA-HA-HAAAA! Yeah, by the sounds, that woman slaver could turn anyone to fags! At least! Here, if you want to have fun with this (because what the hell else can anyone do with it if they don't want brain-drain-pain!) - next time she's due, get NF to spread a little icing sugar over her nostrils. :-D "Then her mum decided that she was going to clean the whole house for us." Ah-hah! (Not reading ahead.) "It had already been cleaned by professional cleaners but apparently it wasn’t up to her standards." Yeah, right. Crikey, though - that must have been hard?...cleaning a house that was already clean? Right, that does it: summon her (flatteringly, of course) as soon as it's dirty. :-p Oh god, this woman's so textbook. She's Benign, though (I KNOW!! Misnomer or what!). Might even just be riddled with Narc fleas? Dunno...What was NF's dad like? Towards her, I mean? Or the maternal grandparents?) "she hinted heavily that we should stay and help her but NF and I had planned to go out" I imagine she knew that...or had picked up on it. That is NOT the way to ask someone to please stay. But...they just can't bear to be humble. Because that would be admission of not being SUPERIOR. You can see it now, can't you - how they're their own worst enemies first and foresmost? "...If the house was that bad then I would of stayed and helped coz I don’t like mess" Me neither! Can't think. Some people like being unable to think. Pas moi. Ou toi. "but it was clean. NF didn’t back down either and had told her mum not to, but she was [insistent], so we left her to it." Good. About time someone trained that stunted child in a grown-up suit. That's obviously what was always missing. "On the way back NF said to me she wouldn’t be surprised if her mum a bad mood because she didn’t stay and help. she didn’t seem to be in a mood, but she definitely wanted us to be very thankful, be praised and acknowledge how much work she did." What - cleaning a house that didn't need cleaning? LOL Did you point and say, 'You missed a bit'? :-D "She took us into each room and listed off what she had done. she labelled all the bl**dy cupboards drawers. So uni house now smells of bleach and we are peeling off all the labels..." :-D :-D :-D This would make a FANTASTIC skit - you and NF (you playing mum) - at your uni. xmas bash, you know? "she also unpacked all of NF’s clothes and arranged them into outfits" Well, how ELSE is she going to control what gets teamed with what? :-D Here, as well as the icing sugar, get NF to buy fake pierced earrings (those little magnetic jobbies). They work as nose studs too, heh-heh. "...I hope we don’t see her till Christmas...she is quite interesting to analyse though and see what she does/comes out of her mouth next." YES! Welcome to my world. :-) "She must think she’s is such an amazing, helpful person. Bit like dud I guess!" Yup. And - 'just misunderstood'. "On the plus side, I like uni house, much better then halls (Y)." You got a good one, then? Yes, so did son (he sent me a video tour after he'd finished arranging his stuff). I was really surprised. I.e. that it wasn't a sh*thole, LOL. They were in my day, believe you me! 4. "With dishy we yeah might be falling for him quite a lot but...I like that it’s still going slowly, it might pick up a bit now we’re back at uni and he’s only a few streets away, going to wait and see." We yeah might be? What's that, Yoda? :-D "His mum is French Canadian, his dad and step mum are English. His brother is his stepbrother, that was confusing coz they’re very close in age!" Oh? How close is very? "His mum and dad divorced, she moved back," How old was he? "and [he] and his dad always travelled to her, so dishy could see her, until he was old enough to go alone. Dishy says they’ve been talking Skype but I don’t know if that’s him making all the effort. Coz that’s what he seems to do." Yyyup. 5. "developments, my mum said something about the divorce being finalised soon." OOOOH. "That will be good." No, it won't. Won't make any difference. Not to him. You lot are his possessions/property. He'll continue acting-out for another - OOOOOOH....8 years? Mum's going to have to learn how to contain, manage and counter-manipulate him. She's making a good start, though. But the point is - don't build your hopes up, any of you, that it'll be his cue to revert to better behaviour. The marriage certificate meant too little to him and ditto the divorce certificate. They don't respect or follow laws/rules, just use them as tools and bridges, remember? "Bro really, really want to change surname to my mums maiden name :-/...she’s not sure." She's not at the place on the path where she no longer worries whether he's going to accuse her for 'turning him against him' ...which they do, because, being "just" a child, he/she's too stupid to have any independent thought. (And, being perfect and blameless, it can't possibly be anything *he's* done.) ...Or is too stupid if it suits, in terms of creating a great opportunity and cover excuse to aim a kick at her again. Remember, they have to constantly keep kicking whichever cat(s) because, without emotional processing practise/capability, that's the only 'resource' accessible/available to their pea-brains (eQ) when it comes to alleviating/offloading (self-created and -indulged) anger and resentment...jealousy, etc....) "bro is now doing talking therapies thing and he’s on antidepressants." Ahhh. :-( Still, good on him for being man enough to accept a leg-up. No shame in that, that's just clever. :-) "He did really well in his exams" Excellent! "and so he decided to do both things, so he can carry on doing well! Not going to question him aspiring to be a doctor anymore coz if he really want to then he’ll show it and work hard." Huh? Two WHAT things? Have I missed something? "my mum and auntie are finally talking" LOL. What were the odds. (Damn, should have placed a bet!) "- took them a bit longer to make up [than] usual" Well, it was a significantly bigger dynamic adjustment than they'd ever had to make before, wasn't it. "They started talking but then my mum got annoyed with auntie again. Auntie realised she had caused offence said sorry," TAKE THIS TEST! LET'S SEE IF YOU'VE ACTUALLY LISTENED TO WHAT I SAID! / I HAVE. AND THIS PROVES IT (SO THERE). Lol "suggested they had a day out together, so is trying to change how she talks to my mum. Think my mum needs to be a little bit more patient too!" Yeah, agree. Trouble is (roughly ref. Harry in Harry Met Sally)... once you finally get to ditch the crutches, it's natural to just want to sprint like the wind and try to make up for lost time. She's also practising her new-found assertiveness on auntie. Because it's safe to (if she stuffs up). Very impressed with Auntie, as per. Sorry for the lateness, btw. Thought I'd vary it a bit this week. By waiting until the end. Next week, I'll hide it within the main body of text and you can try to find it. A bit like Where's Wally, LOL. That poor attempt at a joke is my cue to go to bed. Possibly the very last hot Saturday for the year, got friends coming round for Pimms and tapas on my deck. Here - have you got a garden?

PS: If dud *does* remember anyone else's - HIDE THE FACT. This is where lying is a *good* thing. By the time you confess, any of you, Browon't care one way or the other - neither per se nor the fact you hid it to protect his feelings and welfare at this wobbly point.

Hi Sorry for late reply! I might of been distracted by someone...let’s blame Dishy. Anyway Duds latest is he told my mum that for mine and sibs birthdays’ and Christmas’ he going to put money aside each year, we’re not actually going to receive the money. He’s keeping it for us. Weird (not that I want his money) and I doubt he’s actually doing this, it’s all talk. Again. He also wants the family dog to live with him. Apparently he ranted on about how much it cost him, and my mum doesn't like dogs so he’s doing her a favour. she reminded him he brought the dog for sibs and me (mainly sis) and it’s not going to happen sis is attached to dog. It’s been nearly three years so why now. I remember at the time when he had brought the dog, I had questioned and argued with him why (after the excitement), when he knew my mum didn’t want a dog but he still went ahead and did it. Him and my mum had not long split up, so I was worried my mum would be even more upset and they wouldn’t get back together. It was a fun argument thoughbecause he couldn’t explain himself and he ended up sending me home early because I was being ‘ungrateful’ and needed to ‘think about my attitude towards him’ :-D. EIGHT more years of him acting out?! ugh ... great ? Dishy's mum moved back when he about 9 and he said he remembers his dad was convinced she’d moved back to uk and they went to Canada every school holiday but clearly she didn’t! His dad met his step mum (and step bro) when he was 13. I met his dad very recently, not for long and he seemed friendly enough. One thing I’m not doing this time is getting too friendly, too quickly like I did with Toms mum, I’m standing back a bit this time. I saw Toms mum not too long ago, (not long after the Tom incident at his work place) and she’s not who I thought she was. She started off really friendly, hugging and happy to see me but then started asking questions like do I have a boyfriend?...nosy questions that felt like she was gathering information and she could pass on. Well I have to say, I do, do a really good impression of NF’s mum :-D. Got that nailed, shame you can’t hear it. God she’s relentless. She’s not stopped going on about how she cleaned the house on the phone to NF (I’m certain the whole street can hear her!) and asking her if we’re keeping on top of her ‘good work’ and if we’re keeping everything in place...I’m just waiting for NF to tell her we’ve got rid of all the labels. NF says her dad does everything for her mum and has him running around after her and he pretty much ignores how her mum treat and talks to her so he's an enabler. she doesn’t have much of a relationship with him. She’s got an older sister who, like megs older siblings, lives far away. Maternal grandparents, she said her gran is just like her mum so there we go! Ooooo magnetic piercings that could fun :-D. NF is starting to concentrate on her appearance a bit more too, so kinda makes sense! Yeah got a good uni house, I’ve been round other uni friends’ houses’ and they weren’t so lucky! There has been little bit of tension in uni house. IT friend shouted at NF :-| over something really stupid. She been trying to be tidy and shes been quite nervous about a house share. I felt very protective of her but she decided she was going hto deal with it herself (y) so I didn't get involved. IT friend did try to talk about it with me when we had friends round the other night, and it looked like he was hoping we could all slag NF off. I really hope this isn’t him showing his true colours! Bro was doing a counselling and anti depressants. He said counselling was crap he didn’t actually see anyone it was done over the phone which he didn’t like, so he's just taking tablets, which he says is helping more.

LILS I was going to ask how things were going. As it is you have alot on your plate. I do too now that I think about it.

My turn to apologise, Lils. I've been distracted by some-THING - namely sinus flu, the 'can't even get out of bed' variety. Be with you later or tomorrow.

"I might of been distracted by someone...let’s blame Dishy." That's good, but...quick frisk: Is the relationship leaving you time and/or are you still merrily or concertedly making time for your friends and other interests to ensure your romance remains on the healthy track (and over-temptation be damned)? I'm sure you are, but it's just good to check. "Anyway Duds latest is he told my mum that for mine and sibs birthdays’ and Christmas’ he going to put money aside each year, we’re not actually going to receive the money. He’s keeping it for us. Weird (not that I want his money) and I doubt he’s actually doing this, it’s all talk. Again." Well done. Seen this one a thousand times. It comes under what I pet-call "NTS": Narcissistic "Tomorrow" Syndrome, but is officially known as Future Faking, which, note, is part of Love-/Re-Love-Bombing. He's back to licking bottoms. Here - how come he didn't just tell you three and leave it to you to naturally tell your mum, hmm? Funny, that. So she's the target and you three the pawns, as per... So the crux question is: does MUM believe him or does she suspect it's pure rot as well? PS: He needs the extra dosh for dating and falsely impressing. "He also wants the family dog to live with him." Maybe he ought ask the dog how s/he feels about that? LOL If that isn't incentive for a dog to suddenly learn to talk, I don't know WHAT is! LOL... X-Factor, here you come! ....."So, Lily", asks Simon Cowell, "When did you first realise your dog could speak English?". "Well", replies Lily, "I'm glad you asked me that because...." :-D "Apparently he ranted on about how much it cost him," What - so he wants to add to his initial expense by forevermore being the one to buy its food and vet bills? (It never escapes my notice how these 'individuals' would rather you believe they're as thick as pig sh*t than leave you room to suss their game. Alternatively, is he intending to melt it down and sell it? :-p Tell him, you asked the dog yourself and the dog said no. And when he argues about how ridiculous that is, reply, 'Oh yeah? Prove it!'. "and my mum doesn't like dogs" Yeah, but I'll bet what she likes even less is the thought of handing over an innocent, defenseless animal to a user-neglector. Give him a pot plant and say, if this is still alive in a year, I'll think about you having the dog. And then, secretly mark the plant's leaf underside in permanent marker in case when the time comes he simply buys a replacement. "so he’s doing her a favour." Well, if he says he is then he must be, eh! Because he- sorry, He (The Farter, The Dumb and the Holey Boast) said so! :-p "she reminded him he brought the dog for sibs and me (mainly sis) and it’s not going to happen sis is attached to dog. It’s been nearly three years so why now." He didn't need reminding. He's just scraping the barrel of Excuses By Which to ENGAGE HER. You know that, I know that, Scopes knows that...but Mum doesn't, not in the moment, anyway. "I remember at the time when he had brought the dog, I had questioned and argued with him why (after the excitement), when he knew my mum didn’t want a dog" That's why. And to create a bridge - or threat or provocation - with a very long shelf life. "It was a fun argument though because he couldn’t explain himself and he ended up sending me home early because I was being ‘ungrateful’ and needed to ‘think about my attitude towards him’ :-D." You little minx, you! LOL Here's a naughty idea: Sis's Xmas present to Dud this year: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Melissa-Doug-Giant-Russell-Terrier/dp/B003NSBKZ0/ref=sr_1_6?keywords=stuffed+toy+dog&qid=1572122153&sr=8-6 :-D He won't know how to take that. She's still young enough that it could be sincere, isn't she. LOL "EIGHT more years of him acting out?! ugh ... great ?" Yes, but you can all stop it. Maybe not 100% but to a manageable, ignore-able degree. If you know how. Or, stop being that bothered by it - like you, lately, having fun experimenting and taking the Pee. So - edit: you've got about 8 more years of his *attempts*, until repeated failure equals you lot being boring/useless as a Supply. Go Google, Grey (or Gray) Rock. And then, of course, there's the choice to cease all contact (NC) or make it as minimal as possible per year (Low C)? Taking the Pee definitely speeds up one's ability to cease to be "bovvered" beyond just 'Ugh, what a pest, ach, not him again, what a drag, tell him I'm out...'. Taking the constant Pee (like that link up there) is a super-fast-tracker. Being constantly humiliated is the exact opposite of Supply, despite you'd think it counted as giving him attention. (It's Attention, Jim, but not as he knows it! LOL) You're there, but your Mum and sibs are still some way behind you on that path. No worries, it's happening. When, not If. It's frustrating waiting, though, isn't it. PS: If she doesn't want to sent it, can I have his address so I can? :-D The gift tag would read, 'Sorry it's not a real one. But - hey... Now you know how it feels!' *********** "Dishy's mum moved back when he about 9" Good God! Question: free will decision or felt she had no choice (escaping abuse or say, too unhappy in UK but either couldn't or didn't want to or wasn't allowed to take Dishy with her)? OMG, though. Imaging how that little boy must have felt!!! "I met his dad very recently, not for long and he seemed friendly enough. One thing I’m not doing this time is getting too friendly, too quickly like I did with Toms mum, I’m standing back a bit this time." Good thinking, Batwoman. "I saw Toms mum not too long ago, (not long after the Tom incident at his work place) and she’s not who I thought she was. She started off really friendly, hugging and happy to see me but then started asking questions like do I have a boyfriend?...nosy questions that felt like she was gathering information and she could pass on." Interesting! If she's not his Flying Monkey (duped fan) trying to gather intel then at the very least she must be ignorant as to his icky-ness, "trying to be helpful", and desperate to have you back in his - and her - life. However, it's still a bit too over-entitled-style invasive, mother-wise, isn't it? Who that was healthy would *dare* meddle in their young-adult son's life like that? SMOTHER ALERT! Oh god - are you thinking what I'm thinking? Two unhealthy parents/an overly dysfunctional family would explain it/Tom and the degree of monster behind his mask, wouldn't it?...how he went from Nice Tom, all the way to this deliberately callous, sadistic, all-round nasty piece of work? "Well I have to say, I do, do a really good impression of NF’s mum :-D. Got that nailed, shame you can’t hear it." Oh yeah? Damn! (Hey, Richard, I don't suppose...? Nah...) "God she’s relentless. She’s not stopped going on about how she cleaned the house on the phone to NF (I’m certain the whole street can hear her!) and asking her if we’re keeping on top of her ‘good work’ and if we’re keeping everything in place...I’m just waiting for NF to tell her we’ve got rid of all the labels." :-D "NF says her dad does everything for her mum and has him running around after her and he pretty much ignores how her mum treat and talks to her so he's an enabler." Clearly. "she doesn’t have much of a relationship with him." Understandably. Poor girl, though, eh? "She’s got an older sister who, like megs older siblings, lives far away." Understandably. "Maternal grandparents, she said her gran is just like her mum so there we go!" Yup. Well, I'm glad NF [should we rename her by now?] is proving to be the Full Stop in that rotten pass-the-parcel chain and that you and your housemates have been supporting and reassuring her. You should all be very proud, Lily. "Ooooo magnetic piercings that could fun :-D. NF is starting to concentrate on her appearance a bit more too, so kinda makes sense!" :-D You could all wear them. All over. :-D "Yeah got a good uni house, I’ve been round other uni friends’ houses’ and they weren’t so lucky!" Your reward, Modom. :-) "There has been little bit of tension in uni house. IT friend shouted at NF :-| over something really stupid. She been trying to be tidy and shes been quite nervous about a house share. I felt very protective of her but she decided she was going hto deal with it herself (y) so I didn't get involved. IT friend did try to talk about it with me when we had friends round the other night, and it looked like he was hoping we could all slag NF off. I really hope this isn’t him showing his true colours!" Only if the behaviour becomes a pervasive pattern, even after it's agreed by all to have been sorted out, and is directed exclusively at her. What was it over? "Bro was doing a counselling and anti depressants. He said counselling was crap he didn’t actually see anyone it was done over the phone which he didn’t like, so he's just taking tablets, which he says is helping more." Fairenoughski. Anyway, he's got a counsellor. You. And his family as a whole. Just knowing you all get it, and empathise, and are open to listening to him once he starts opening up, will be all the leg-up he needs. However, he'll find it an amazing accelerator if he starts to write a retrospective 'diary' and keep reading up on the Narc Father-Son dynamic. After all, he's from the same tree as you. :-) He obviously knows this, deeper down - HENCE is happy to settle for just the chemical recalibration, because let's be honest, how hard IS it to ask mum to find him face-to-face therapy or put pressure on his GP (*actions, actions/lack of*). Saying that - was it Crisis that called him? ********** On a separate note: have you ever listened to Nick Abbot on LBC? Since you're clearly as much of a 'comedy sl*t' as me - *do*. You'll pee your pants laughing! The guy is constantly, genuinely hysterical and a master at taking the Pee out of idiots and the idiotic. He's on now, as I speak.

Here, Scopes, you can tune in as well - google LBC Listen Live. By the way - how's the self-build going? And what style is it in?

One other thing, Lils: "Apparently he ranted on about how much it cost him," Suggest (heavily and earnestly) to Mum that in future, the very SECOND he starts ranting or being in any way inappropriate and disrespectful, to say, 'Sorry, but I won't be spoken to like this' and put the phone gently down. That one is part of how to fail at being Narc Num-Nums (Supply).

LILS having roommates can be a bit touchy. Soulmate the build is on hold for now. I'm concentrating on social security for the ending year.

Yes, I am making sure I got time for friends and other things. I didn’t want to leave NF out but she’s been going out on dates with a couple of different guys! None bf material apparently, I think she’s just testing and seeing what it’s like. She’s (finally) starting to believe that men do like her/attracted to her. Second year of uni is also really full on. No, my mum didn’t believe dud at all when he said he was putting money aside for each of us birthday and Christmas. Dud can’t get through to any of us, ( he still remains blocked, even on sis’s phone) which is why he probably told my mum. unless he writes to us but I don’t think he can be bothered, too much effort for him. Bro, I don’t think will have any problem going no contact in the future, when he does talk about dud, he’s calls him by his first name now. Haha, Sis really likes the idea of sending dud the stuffed toy dog, think she’s going to do it and I don’t think he’ll know how to take it, he’ll have a fun Xmas trying to work it out :-D. She’s a good actress she can play being sincere very well! Our dog is one lazy dog! Dud doesn’t realise this, he probably only remembers him as a puppy. We literally have to shove the dog out the door to get him to go for a walk, even on a short walk he sits quite a lot and refuses to move for about 10 minutes. Bit annoying. My mum has taken him to the vets a few times to make sure he’s healthy. Vet reassured he’s is, just not the most adventurous dog! So Dud definitely wouldn’t have the patience and begrudge vet bills and food or anything else for him. But it’s not been mentioned since, if it ever did happen I reckon dog would be returned home within a week. From what Dishy has told me his mum was really homesick. But she and his dad both had good jobs so she was able to go back home see family quite a lot. When she did move back it was decided he’d stay with his dad and not uproot him. Dishy was really (happily) surprised when his mum confirmed she bookEd her flights and that she’s coming for a few weeks. Commutation isn’t too good between them though, that’s become even more obvious. she seems to make all the plans but doesn’t really dishy, she tells him. Shes not staying near his home town, maybe for good reasons, I don’t know, but she’s staying a couple of hours away so they both have to travel to see each other. Dishy is too polite to say what he wants/would like to happen. Not too sure why. Yeah the more I think about Toms mum the more I remember how in your face she actually was. She was a bit too interested sometimes and she probably did smother Tom, which explains why he wasn’t that nice/respectful to her or his dad. I used to feel sorry for her coz Toms dad was really difficult, that became more obvious when he got ill and she had three messed up sons but now I think she’s partly to blame. Yeah, Scopes, with the house mates thing I’m beginning to realise and it’s the downside to a house share. Some of my other uni friends are falling out with their housemates too but they’re sharing with like four or five other people. I refuse to go there! He shouted at her an oven dish (yes ...an oven dish, feels really stupid writing this). NF (yes do need to change her nick name, I’m thinking) was using oven dish and IT Friend asked her if she could make sure it was clean for him to use the next day, which she said she would. She soaked it over night coz there was food stuck to it. The next morning IT friend saw it wasn't cleaned and shouted at her without listening to her explanation or believing her that she was going to wash it for him. He wasn’t going to use it right there and then either. What I didn’t like was that he got personal and told NF what he thought of her mum, like she needed him to point it out that to her. She did talk to him about it after but he’s distanced himself from her/us. Ooooooh NF and I are going to have fun this weekend her parents are coming to visit and guess what NF has bought... magnetic piercings :-D. When I first mentioned this idea to her she wasn’t sure because of her mums reaction but I think now she doesn’t care. I grew up listening to LBC, its all my mum ever listens to and now I do. Will try and listen to Nick Abbott, I keep missing it.

Aw, Scopes, what a b*mmer! Didn't understand your final sentence though? Lils, She's dating, is she? Excellent! Bet her mum won't like that/him, but... it does provide an opportunity to see if this further, more severe wrench of the umbilical cord finally makes her mother get with the new programme, called, Your daughter is no longer a child, but an adult. (If she can adapt/grow/change she'll show she's not a Narc, just long-term insecure and issue-ridden and behaving like one). It'll be a bumpy test, though, I suspect. Let's watch that bumpy space, then. Him? Write? That takes calm, stillness and *thinking*, plus is a solitary pursuit. They don't like to think - prefer to just feel and do like foxes (or sleepwalkers) - because that invites reflection (uh-oh). Hence, they don't like to be alone (although I think the exception might be gaming?). Want constant distraction, is the point. Can't self-sooth, can't self-friend and -entertain. Attention from people is their oxygen. But I won't 'get started' (much) because you know all this now, yourself. Good, glad your mum's deeming him guilty until proven innocent (tick!). Faster learner, your mam. :-) "when he does talk about dud, he’s calls him by his first name now." Interesting!... And by the sounds of it, your dud got off lightly when you consider how many things he *could* be calling him. But, what - didn't he fancy 'Dud'? But yeah, having "his" son call him by his first name as if he holds no greater status will no doubt be rather stinging to his fragile little ego. Gosh, we wonder if that occurred to your bro of it's just coming naturally? It's a high-five either way for him, too. I now name you the "nnnnNNNNYYYYYYYyyyyyyON!..." family. :-) Or The Bugatis. "Haha, Sis really likes the idea of sending dud the stuffed toy dog, think she’s going to do it and I don’t think he’ll know how to take it, he’ll have a fun Xmas trying to work it out :-D. She’s a good actress she can play being sincere very well!" HA-HA-HAAAAH! Oh *do*. Followed by a full, second-by-second write-up. I know it's naughty of us but - [deep, serious voice] WE'VE EARNED IT. We've earned it. So there. Mleugh. LOL I mean, really... Has *anyone*...*ever*... on this planet... made you work so...ber-luddy *hard* as him/it? Do what? If everyone thought and behaved like him, WE'D BE DEAD BY NOW. ALL of us normals and empaths! (Oops, I started.) I'll have to finish this tomorrow now as I've only just got home from workipoos (I know!!!) and haven't even eaten - ALL DAY! Talking of naughty (albeit - 'everything in moderation'; I don't do it often), I bought myself a Burger King on the way home. "Nam-nam-nam"... :-) See you tomorrow, then!

Hey, small update - dud went against what he was apparently going to do with birthdays’ and Xmas, not that I/we believed him. He sent sis a birthday card with money inside and a sickly sweet message saying he hopes to see her soon, he misses her ugh. Talk about favouritism! The a*sehole. With no pressure from us, (bro was angry but he managed it better then last time) Sis threw card in the bin and we went to the cinema and she brought the tickets with duds money. she wanted to share it with me, my mum and bro, then with the change she said she put it in a charity box :-). Will be interesting to see if dud does the same at Christmas!

Uh! I'm SO sorry, Lils - my window didn't so much close as slam shut on me! I'll do Parte Deux and then read and respond to your update-ette: Re not having wanted to uproot Dishy: Sorry, but that's a ludicrous, highly risible claim. In fact, it's just plain NONSENSE. There ISN'T anything more uprooting to a child of his age then, than losing your mother to a degree tantamount to her having died (or may as well have)! Good grief, the excuses people make to themselves to justify their selfish actions! And while I'm at it - why didn't his father move out there with her? What, didn't the pair of them think that far ahead when they enmeshed themselves and a little boy into the bargain? Who chooses their job over their soulmate and mother of their child, *and* over the mental and emotional health and welfare of their own baby? See how much there is to see - on both sides - in just a few statements, Lils? Not saying I've come to any conclusion but, suffice it to say - parentally either way, it's not looking good for his past self, is it? So many of us are surrounded by CHILDREN, Lily! Where have all the grown-ups gone? Would you agree with that statement? ...you *and* all your friends? That poor little boy. :-( I hope for your sake he's not too damaged. And I don't necessarily mean, a Narc. Just damaged, still, and 'grieving on the two-person job'. Because, obviously, as a warrior-survivor, having come out of your own 'sh*t' pretty-much unscathed, you're going to show him how healthier reciprocal love feels. With that the case, it's going to provide a noticeable, potentially impactful and disturbing contrast too big to get his head around (think parent sexually abused as a child having same-sex child that hits the age the parent was when the abuse began or dawned on them). My advice would be, go slooooooooowly. Think of him as a cold person (because he's never known enough warmth), never having experienced hot water on his skin before, getting into a hot bath. If the water's too hot, it'll hurt him, give him chilblains, even. Better to give him 'just warm' and then add more hot water steadily and gradually to allow his mental bonding process to go veeeeery smoothly. ...If you get what I'm saying? Might not! But it happens. Still on the topic of his (hmm) mother: sounds like she made plans with *someone*, Lily, just not him. See it? He's an add-on. (Pfff! Don't like her. At this early point, I should add.. after all, you've only had the facts according to him and said conclusions might still belong to a too-young mind. But, I can't help noticing, that if at the fleeing-abandoning time she'd been too wounded and desperate to escape, desperate enough even to leave her baby behind - she's since had *plenty* of time to recover and get back to normal-functioning motherly instincts (plus missing years' backlog = accidental smother)...BIG FAT 'EH'. Cold Fish Alert....but see what your radar thinks of her and report back, yeah?). PS: I'm thinking you knew that and just wanted muggins here to be the one to spell it out, LOL. ;-) It's the way you put it. LOL, Am I right? But anyway, I don't think Dishy's too polite. Taking all the clues so far into account, I think he's loath to raise his expectations because historically they've always been however much dashed. Seeing it? I'd have thought the talk they'd had would have left her RELIEVED, wouldn't you - if bad communication had been their only barrier? And I'd have expected her to have been gagging to cash in on it, not take the linear action of pre-booking, thereby risking his being unavailable altogether? (I mean, how would *she* know what his schedule were like?) Yep, it all strikes me, this visit, I mean, as a bit, 'Two birds with one stone'. How proactive or responsive is his dad when it comes to keeping in touch and visiting/inviting? (Compare him to a healthy dad, not to his ex-wife or your dud.) Tom's mum: Yeah, I must admit, if I had another son, who clearly had resentment-based issues - no matter what or aimed at who/what, I don't think he'd still have them after already having left home and lived alone, do you - and same if it were you? Tell me, in view of what's struck you about these two mothers and, now, what I've pointed out and agreed with - how grateful are you at this stage that your Mum got born a lot more strong-minded and stubborn-as-a-mule than the majority of other women, Lils? Have you read, yet, how incredibly RARE it is for a woman to be the one to ditch, i.e. escape from, her live-in, romantic Narc abuser, particularly when the father of their children? How proud out of Ten are you? :-) And, remember, she's your chef *and* role-model (intrinsically healthy little eyes, given the choice, will focus moreover on the healthy parent...innit). Aaaanyhoo, I'm obviously in chatty mode, but also aware how late I am so I'll post this now and continue in a new box (to give it its technical name LOL)....

Overall, there are as many downsides - and upsides - just different ones, to house-sharing as there are living alone - comme ci, comme ca, as ze Frenjsh poot eet. New life mantra (which should, once it's sunk to the bottom of your jello and got cross-referenced with the memory-banked intricacies of every new experience you've ever had, free you from ever again finding even the heaviest life decisions that face you scary): Choose A, as opposed to B - or even C, D, E.... Same amount of sh*t, same amount of flowers - just different smelling, coloured, textured from the last lot. (Shortened, considering you tend to need it whenever you're feeling negative, to 'Same sh*t - different smell'.) That's it. That's life. Nothing is better than anything. We can do and handle all of it. It's called Adapt. Which we've done regularly and frequently for eons. Very good at it we are. Didn't say growth spurts don't hurt - you know (course ya do), that 'crossing over' part called (eek!) Change - but we're fine Whichever, Wherever, With Whomever... ********************* I'm going to paste you in, now, cos all this scrolling's making me dizzy LOL***** "He shouted at her an oven dish (yes ...an oven dish, feels really stupid writing this)." Feels...Because it is. So it was a catalyst or an excuse (i.e. self-made opportunity) to have a go, then. "NF (yes do need to change her nick name, I’m thinking) was using oven dish and IT Friend asked her if she could make sure it was clean for him to use the next day, which she said she would. She soaked it over night coz there was food stuck to it. The next morning IT friend saw it wasn't cleaned and shouted at her without listening to her explanation or believing her that she was going to wash it for him." Who is he - Stevie Wonder? Never seen a soaking pot in the sink before and know why? Where was HE raised - at the top of a tree? Yeah, pull the other one - it was his great OPPORTUNITY. "He wasn’t going to use it right there and then either." Precisely. What's wrong with, 'Um, NF? Do you think this dish soaked enough for you to wash yet, please?'. Who was it, taught him it was okay to confront someone, particularly someone you're 'trapped in a box' with, in that obnoxious, aggressive manner, then? Particularly someone whom events have proven, is still however much victimised and bound to be too vulnerable to take it? "What I didn’t like was that he got personal and told NF what he thought of her mum, like she needed him to point it out that to her. She did talk to him about it after but he’s distanced himself from her/us." Oh, did he? Tell her what he thought of her mum? Well, at least it sounds like he's ashamed of himself, if he's holing-up and avoiding you all, I mean. Maybe her mother, after however long to sink in, proved a bit of a trigger for him? If not, he's a pr*ck who ain't been brung up right, in which case, he's going to meet real problems keeping a job down, unless he starts to learn to keep his temper under control and especially, speak to other people with better respect while he still can, I reckon. For now - BIG GIANT 'NOTE': He's behaved like NF's mother *as* he's stood there criticising her mother (red flag - gross hypocrisy + aggression and/or inability to compute while aroused...and regardless of anything else, Inappropriate Affect (go goog). If it's shame (which it bloody should be to a healthy mind), expect an apology. Not just to her but, if he's grown-up enough, to all of you. "Ooooooh NF and I are going to have fun this weekend her parents are coming to visit and guess what NF has bought... magnetic piercings :-D. When I first mentioned this idea to her she wasn’t sure because of her mums reaction but I think now she doesn’t care." Good. How did NF handle it? Were they shocked, and did she put them out of their misery quite quickly ("ta-daaaa, they're not real!")? And more to the point - if she did, did they see the funny side? Or was NF a total 'sadist' and kept up the pretence the entire time? (See the beauty in this exercise? The victim has total control and an ever-ready escape hatch ("Ta-daa, was only teasing!")...like a parachute, they can pull the cord the minute their confidence wavers. But you, the observer, get to measure their confidence. Because, in the grand scheme of things, does it REALLY matter if your daughter who's entered adulthood by leaving home has made the free-will, adult, perfectly rightful decision that can't even hurt anyone else, to ADORN herself by getting her (OH, NO!!!) ears pierced? "I grew up listening to LBC," Ah-ha-haaah - LBC High Five! :-) "its all my mum ever listens to and now I do." And again! "Will try and listen to Nick Abbott, I keep missing it." And a Red-raw third time! Yeah, you do have to listen to ALL of them because they have varying or completely different perspectives, leanings and opinions, and you don't want to start to become 'infected' with any one presenter's vision, especially not with the election looming (are you going to vote? - don't tell me who, just if). And that's when you NEED Nick Abbot... he gets your right hemisphere (where emotion and humour lives) more heavily involved, to give your left hemi (serious stuff) a desperately-needed rest. You don't notice the hard, mental work, though, because they're all fun, really, in their own ways. *************************************** And now you're update-ette: "...dud went against what he was apparently going to do with birthdays’ and Xmas, not that I/we believed him. He sent sis a birthday card with money inside and a sickly sweet message saying he hopes to see her soon, he misses her ugh. Talk about favouritism!" UH-HUH!... "The a*sehole." Mm-hmm! And how does that 'being singled out' make Sis feel, do you think? ...Uh-huh! Giant one. "With no pressure from us, (bro was angry but he managed it better then last time)" Noted. "Sis threw card in the bin" OOOOH! I wasn't expecting her to go *that* far, *this* fast! Well done! How did she feel afterwards, though? Did she have a reaction to her own admission/rebellion? "and we went to the cinema and she brought the tickets with duds money." Cool! Who taught her that one, then? ;-) "she wanted to share it with me, my mum and bro, then with the change she said she put it in a charity box :-)." Okay, now she's just showing off. ;-) "Will be interesting to see if dud does the same at Christmas!" [32 point] UH....HUH!

Any more updates or topics while I've got the time? I've got guests turning up in a tick, but I'm in tomorrow (mainly because it's BLOODY FREEZING out there - have you been out yet?!).

Sorry soulmate and LILS I've been rather busy myself. I retire in three weeks,plus the holidays coming up.

Hey, Have to admit I have been a little bit doubtful about Dishy and just trying to decide if a relationship the right thing. It’s confusing, he’s not done anything wrong at all, he’s been very nice, thoughtful new bf so far, and we have lots of fun together. It is going really, really slowly, which only feels right and we seem to have good balance of seeing each other and having our own time with friends. But I don’t know how much damage has been done and after Tom ( I try not to compare them) I’m a bit ... apprehensive! (Think that’s the right word). Nope his mum doesn’t sound like the friendliest person in the world! Yeah, I agree, I think he is an add on to his mums trip and she has made other plans too. So, we’ll see how this visit goes! But I think he’s quite anxious about it. Hehehe NF handled the faking piecing thing very well. She put one in her nose, which actually really suited her and couple in other places. Her mum took one look at her and said hysterically ‘what have you done to yourself?!’. Then ranted on wanting to know what else she was doing to her body? Is she smoking? doing drugs?It was classic :-D. Her dad seemed a bit helpless and every time he opened his mouth to say something her mum cut him off. NFs dad thought it was quite funny, tried to make light of it...he seemed ok, when NF told them they were fake. Her mum had zero sense of humour and she got angry and went back to their hotel coz she was very stressed. She doesn't like practical jokes apparently and she told NF after, it ruined her weekend. Good to know practical jokes are one way to get rid of her! :-D NF had to spend the whole weekend with them, her mum wouldn’t talk to her but she said she had quite a nice time with her dad instead. Hmmmmm IT Friend has still not apologised for shouting and he’s still being distant with us. He’s is a hypocrite, 1. He’s not a tidy person at all. 2, I swear half the plates, cups, cutlery we have is in his room coz it’s missing, and it’s can’t be anywhere else! I’ve asked him and he denied it. I’m surprised coz he seemed like a nice person before. I did check with sis about how she was feeling about dud sending a card and she Said she felt annoyed with dud and uncomfortable but she said if he does it again she’ll do the same thing. She still wanted to know if she could send him the stuffed toy dog! Bro is now pretty angry about it still now but I made sure he’s not taking it out on sis :-/. 10 out of 10 proud for my mum :-D I’m just thankful she’s normal! It is bloody freezing, I’ve been inside all weekend!

I've been gone so long I expect you two thought I'd snuffed it. Frankly, there was a point I thought I would! I had flu. Again. And this one was a killer - two whole weeks in bed. I've never slept so much in my life, it was like a sleeping sickness. But anyway, it means I'm having to go into over-drive to catch-up on the lost time (and wages)...haven't even done any Xmas cards yet, and tomorrow's last post and I'm working (flat-out) so...this year, no crimbo cards for anyone not in walking distance. But anyway, I don't even have enough time now so it'll have to be Friday night or Saturday. PS: Still need a secretary. And a PA. ...And a butler would be nice, but that's pushing it, LOL. See ya Satdee or sooner.

Quick PS tho: I got my saying the wrong way round. It's 'Different sh*t, same smell' (soz....makes sense now, eh, LOL).

PPS Scopes - retiring? Oh, how LOVELY! Very jealous. So what were all those things you used to wish you could do if you'd not worked and had the time? Got your hang-gliding kit ordered yet and your Salsa shoes polished? Or will it be bird-watching and stamp-collecting?

Well, well, well....Fate has provided, Lily! I thought I had to be up early but an appointment's been cancelled, meaning, I can stay up a bit later and post right now (and have a bit of a bloody lie-in for a change!). And I'm relieved about that because I've just caught the first line and realised things aren't ticketyboo, so... let's paste it here and see what's what: ********************************* "Have to admit I have been a little bit doubtful about Dishy and just trying to decide if a relationship the right thing. It’s confusing, he’s not done anything wrong at all, he’s been very nice, thoughtful new bf so far, and we have lots of fun together. It is going really, really slowly, which only feels right and we seem to have good balance of seeing each other and having our own time with friends. But I don’t know how much damage has been done and after Tom ( I try not to compare them) I’m a bit ... apprehensive! (Think that’s the right word)." So (a long-handed version of) what you're saying is, because this time there's no drama dust to distract you, you can feel the bonding is happening as it's supposed to, thus has already surpassed/gone deeper and obviously more authentic than the experienced level, so...not being used to it, not being your comfort zone, what with your having only dated a Narc (and friends dating Narcs - now't to compare with) and having grown up around that level of (er) behaviour - it feels wrong and scary? Very nosy but necessary question: how's the physical side (from cuddling to kissing to All The Way)? And, especially, with each repetition? "Nope his mum doesn’t sound like the friendliest person in the world! Yeah, I agree, I think he is an add on to his mums trip and she has made other plans too." Tsk. Poor lad. Oh god, Lily, don't chuck him now, please! Bad, bad timing; you're going to have to wait. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I'D HAVE ADVISED EVEN IF HIS MUM DIDN'T EXIST. This is normal. Just take it slower. Explain you've hit a stage that feels alien and which you need to acclimatise to. But not yet; he'll be feeling rejected already, thanks to his (bleugh) 'mother'. "So, we’ll see how this visit goes! But I think he’s quite anxious about it." Yes, precisely. Hey, do you suppose some of that perturbation of yours could be you 'hoovering up' his emotional state of mind? "Hehehe" Well! HAHAHAHA! Doesn't sound like you're THAT perturbed - a quick mention and then not only straight onto a different topic but giggling at the memory of it. It could be that you're experiencing genuine empathy for your boyfriend for the first time as well (because Narc behaviour blocks that 2nd leg of the bonding path; being dysfunctional, the right buttons don't get pressed to facilitate that mental programming, and how you feel, feels off-putting because you have no frame of reference in which to identify it (and things you can't identify are worrying). And unfortunately, what you're bound to be hoovering up is GIANT WOBBLING. I mean, NOT ONLY might she flake or disappoint in some way(s), or show him up right royally, but - this is the first time his girlfriend meets his mother (think about it). And if she's a bit of a loose cannon.... Yeah, I think I'd be tense and anxious too. And you're bound to be tense anyway, even under normal circumstances. Remember how you felt before meeting Tom's family? Ah-hah. And that (ultimately) ended in tears...and cuts, gashes, bruises... IT'S A TRIGGER. A negative one, obviously. Have a thinkipoos because I could be right (by which I mean - a bit of all of the above). However, as I say, you might be right, and the portion of discomfort concerning him is a sign that he's not Q...UITE your cup of tea beyond a few sips. But that's the point of biding your time. Making sure you don't do anything you'll seriously regret. Because Fear dissipates (particularly after one or a few good night's sleep). Actual issues (as in, going off him) don't... If you're not quite sure Put it in the 24-hour drawer. If still not sure Put it in the 48-hour drawer.... Maximum time spent re-inserting into the drawer: 1 month. Unless your feet take control and dump him before you do. But still, not yet, not with this impending (er) visit. Shorter version: NEVER try to make any important decision (other than 'Ginger Nuts versus Hobnobs') if you're emotionally aroused beyond normal everyday levels (and that applies even if aroused on the positive/happy side). Keep me posted on that score. "NF handled the faking piecing thing very well. She put one in her nose, which actually really suited her and couple in other places." Oh yeah? A couple of other places or a (cough) couple of "other places"? Suited her, did it? Now there's a lucky discovery. She'll hopefully run with that and change her whole image to Rock Chick. "Her mum took one look at her and said hysterically ‘what have you done to yourself?!’." Bingo. How dare she talk to another person like that. The only answer to that is, 'None of your business and - that's a nice way to greet your adult daughter you haven't seen for weeks!? Would you like to try again or get back in your car?' "Then ranted on wanting to know what else she was doing to her body?" 'Masturbating, mother. Nightly'. (:-P) 'Is she smoking?' 'NOYB. Are you?' 'doing drugs?' 'Are you offering? Or can I Phone A Friend? Anyway, I think you took a wrong turn - the Counter Terrorist Training School was back a mile, first Left'. "It was classic :-D." WASN'T IT THOOOOOOOUGH. You see? We are NOT helpless. We can set them secret frisking type tests and they never have the faintest... "Her dad seemed a bit helpless" Oh, don't they always. So would you after being bullied from all randomly-chosen angles for what feels like centuries. 'Why bother?', is the attitude, 'She'll only get her revenge on me later, as per'. "and every time he opened his mouth to say something her mum cut him off." Mm, he must have a fun life? "NFs dad thought it was quite funny," DID HE? Oh thank eff - he's healthy!!! (Narcs have NOOOOOO genuine SOH, they just pretend. You need - drum roll - empathy for that, and a critical quantum at that.) It IS funny. It could have BEEN funny. It could have broken the Separation ice. The experiment in itself was harmless. SHE...turned it toxic. So I've still got my halo, and you've still got yours, and look what we've observed (me through you, although I knew it would play like that LOL). "tried to make light of it...he seemed ok, when NF told them they were fake. Her mum had zero sense of humour and she got angry and went back to their hotel coz she was very stressed." NOOOOOOOO! TELL ME YOU'RE JOKING!!! OMG. Someone call Matron! I mean - don't get me wrong, my money was on an inappropriate, unreasonable reaction, but...IT'S THE SIZE OF IT! ****She Flounced***** Narcs flounce. Inappropriately. She behaved like an over-touchy, resentment-stuffed 8-year-old. Still, it was about time NF showed her mum that she has muscles too, wasn't it. So - it's all good. They'll live. ;-) "She doesn't like practical jokes apparently and she told NF after, it ruined her weekend." Really? Is she sure it didn't 'give her a heart-attack'? Or 'cancer'? I mean - why stop at 'WHOLE WEEKEND RUINED'...? Is she a daytime soap-opera star, tho? :-p Christ - no-one ever give that woman a joke piece of gum! Can you imagine??? Jeez... "Good to know practical jokes are one way to get rid of her! :-D" :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D (Did you mean to be that hilarious? My face and stomach hurt!!!) "NF had to spend the whole weekend with them, her mum wouldn’t talk to her but she said she had quite a nice time with her dad instead." :-D :-D :-D !!....there you go again! But it's true, yes! (PS: Were you aware you have the same written SOH type as the one and only Clive James? Go read 'Unreliable Memoires' and you'll see what I mean. But be careful not to make my mistake and read it on the train; particularly not the Tube, LOL.) ************** "Hmmmmm IT Friend has still not apologised for shouting" Can't apologise. Ego too huge. RED FLAG, RED FLAG (RED RUM) (- sorry, couldn't resist). BUT... since he's only recently coming out of the normal teen version of Narcissistic Phase, he's probably just incredibly immature and acting like a 13 year old with stubble. Tell him to shove his conkers up his........forgotten what it's called..... oh yeah - Haagen-Dazs. Experiment: start deliberately saying sorry to NF in the kitchen etc. when he's around - and she should apologise back. Ham it up.... 'Oh, I nearly bumped into you - or I would have had I not seen you and you me, I'm SO SORRY, Lily!' / 'Oh, no, it was my fault for being in the kitchen when you were alive - *I'm* sorry' / 'No, I am' / 'Okay...we're both sorry :-)'. Let's see if this one has a sense of humour bypass as well. PSST! Do you want to know how to do an incredibly convincing, fake girl-on-girl, passionate snog in front of him? One that doesn't make either you or NF feel icky afterwards? [wiggles eyebrows mischieviously] Again - tried and tested. "and he’s still being distant with us. He’s is a hypocrite, 1. He’s not a tidy person at all. 2, I swear half the plates, cups, cutlery we have is in his room coz it’s missing, and it’s can’t be anywhere else! I’ve asked him and he denied it. I’m surprised coz he seemed like a nice person before.' You had me at hypocrite. COURSE HE IS. That's! what! THEY DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...... Even the natural, mere slower-developing, teen ones. Rule: Under 25 and overly narcisisstic: acceptable (if ucking annoying and upsetting). Any age above that (and even 25's being generous) - call Matron, their needle's stuck, they need a whack. Or - just run, LOL. (Throw something first. A morsel of Home Truth usually does it.) ************* "I did check with sis about how she was feeling about dud sending a card and she Said she felt annoyed with dud and uncomfortable but she said if he does it again she’ll do the same thing. She still wanted to know if she could send him the stuffed toy dog!" She's got the right attitude. Say nothing, accept the Lemon, and make Lemonade that you can share with your allies. They don't have to know that you know. If they do, you can't make Lemonade out of it. ...just while she's caught in his parent net. Haha, where he's concerned, she'll be NF. And he'll be NF's 'mum'. "Bro is now pretty angry about it still now but I made sure he’s not taking it out on sis :-/." Good good good! Describe pretty angry? Describe taking-out? And when you pointed out that he'd been l'il sis-kicking, was he horrified and apologetic about it? "10 out of 10 proud for my mum :-D I’m just thankful she’s normal!" I know! Me too! I mean, I'm the one has to talk to you every month! So - phew! (*joke*) "It is bloody freezing, I’ve been inside all weekend!" Why, what did you shoplift? ********************************* You've set me off, look. ;-) Here: Question: If athletes get Athlete's Foot - what do Elves get? Answer: Mistle Toe Two snowmen in a field.... 'Can you smell Carrots?' (mwa-ha)

I'm still gaffawing! Ohhh, this has to be framed and put on the wall: ""Good to know practical jokes are one way to get rid of her! :-D"" Brilliant.

PS: Since Lily isn't your real name, and considering there are thousands of students attending there: Are you at Brighton?

PPS: You know what's going to happen, don't you?...the more NF sidles away from her mum and her ability to destroy her mood...all this sassy-style rebellion-...I mean - HUGE kudos to NF for daring to go ahead with the fake metal at her early stage!...she's a secret lion, that one - you watch!..but anyway... Do you? I'll tell ya: her father (don't tell her this!) will take her lead and either start emotionally distancing himself until distanced enough to continue his (er) marriage in a state of having genuinely ceased to care what she thinks or says, ever again, until he actually tunes her out...OR... he'll leave her. In fact he'll leave her. Those two are not opposites, they're just Slow Route versus Fast Route because, let's face it, once you've seen behind the mask and lost your fear of them because they can't hurt you any more, no matter what they try, it's impossible to stay. Upset you may never again get at them, but... they're still too irritating... the best you're going to get is a life of trying not to strange someone every hour or every day. So he'll leave. Watch that space. Remember, Smother can always try to stop him... clean up her act blah-blah. But I cannot - CANNOT see a woman who reacted and behaved like that - to that ridiculous degree, being capable of walking all the hundreds of miles from Narc Hill to Clean Valley. Nah. Too extreme ergo too revealing. Ber-der-ber-der, that's all folks (for now). Night! PS Stokes: Learn archery! Or real ale brewing - THERE YA GO! (25p please :-))

LILS how's things going with Dishy now during the holidays? Are the bro and sis still having issues? Hopefully everything's working out. Yep soulmate I'm officially retired. The company gave me a going away cake and a little token gift. So much for a severance package. Hang gliding sounds like fun. Or maybe one of those flight suits yuk yuk.

Hi, Ohhh, I had a flu jab this year, after a very enthusiastic nurse talked me into having it, and a week later it turned into a really heavy cold, not having that done again! Probably No where near as bad as flu though. Yep it did feel quite wrong and scary but not so much now. What you said made a lot of sense. I haven’t chucked Dishy, I like him a little bit too much and I think I would of ended up regretting it. With holding hands Dishy made the first move and with kissing. But with going all the way, we took that very slowly it’s was a good few weeks (maybe even a month...) before that happened. Dishy has had more disappointment with his mum. He arranged with his mum he would pick her up from the airport and it was his idea that they would then go to London. So he came to stay at my house when uni finished because it was a lot easier for him. Then he got a call from her, the day before she was going travel, and told him she was going to stay with a friend, London could wait. No wonder he doesn’t like suggesting things! I thought she was going to tell him she wasn’t coming at all for what ever reason, thank god that didn’t happen. But ditching him for a friend proves he’s an add on to her trip. Ugh. I wasn’t planning on meeting his mum. I didn't really want to. I was keeping quiet and hoping it wasn’t going to get mentioned but Dishy was quite keen...so I am now. after thinking about it, I think it might give me a better idea as to what she’s actually like (rather then judging her) and how they are together in person. Nope not joking with NF’s mum. We were going to get a take away and watch a film because NFs birthday a week after, and we we’re going celebrate it and I thought it might relax things and her mum might be ok but no, she choose to leave. IT not-Friend, the dirty, lying little git, left all the dirty plates and cups from his room in the kitchen without washing them, then buggered off home for Christmas! I wanted to wash up but NF said to leave it and he can do them when he comes back. Was really hard to leave them there but I suppose she’s right, but I wasn’t happy! I’m deciding what to say to him when I see him, if anything maybe NF and I will just be over apologetic. A girly kiss would freak him :-D. NF’s is getting the right idea with hi to deal with Narcs, we were in a book shop together before x-mas and she pulled out a kids book called ‘Sid won’t say sorry’ (or something like that) and asked if we should give it to IT Friend for a x-mas present. Wish we had now! I am slightly relieved she is staying at her sisters for all of Christmas, I don’t think she’s even going him. Nope didn’t been to be funny :-D I’m gonna look into that book ! Bro and sis are arguing non stop at moment . I think dud sending sis a birthday card and money sparked things off. Bro’s (ex)gf has also dumped him, so he’s not going out as much. it took him a few days to tell me this but didn’t go into any detail as to why....yet Starbucks trip might work. Sis is still going out with her boyfriend, she’s goes all giddy if you even mention his name to her and she talks about him quite a lot. No don’t go to Brighton uni, it’s near by though, sort of (Not sure if I’m allowed to say where). hope you both had a good Christmas.

Hey Lils (and Scopester)... The usual 'bear with'... Weekend latest but maybe tomorrow.

I'm gobsmacked we're going on four years here! CHEERS!

'Weekend latest' my a*se. Ach. Sorry - huge project deadlines, still bear with, not forgotten you (impossible!).

Scopes - I know!(!!!) We're hard b***ards, we are. :-)

Ooh wait - I've got a surprise 5 min window! LOL, this really is getting like when you light a ciggie because a taxi's late and, bam, up it pulls... "Yep it did feel quite wrong and scary but not so much now. What you said made a lot of sense. I haven’t chucked Dishy, I like him a little bit too much and I think I would of ended up regretting it." Phew. Yes, you would. It's perfectly natural to wobble as you approach The Gates Of No Return (not really, only in terms of would now really hurt if it ended), the important point, as I say, is to sit on your hands and see if the feelings wear off (in which case - only a wobble). True feelings increase with time, false feelings decrease... or, indeed, be they positive or negative, suddenly convert altogether (courtesy of the third, unseen player who can change a situation, thus feelings, out-of-the-blue, sometimes inconceivably: Fate). PS: Would have/Would've ended up. ;-p Not gonna apologise for that cos I'VE TOLD YA SOOO MANY TIMES...nag-nag. LOL Interesting about the flu jab. Don't think that should have happened? Did you inform your doctor of the reaction? Re the "Oy-Oy!". It was more than a couple of weeks *really*, wasn't it, given you went through the Just Friends door first. But anyway, even a month is quite long for your ages so...and let's face it, if I'd said No, wait - would you have paid any heed-YEAH, RIGHT, SURE YA WOULD! :-D I live in the *real* world, me. ************* "Dishy has had more disappointment with his mum. He arranged with his mum he would pick her up from the airport and it was his idea that they would then go to London. So he came to stay at my house when uni finished because it was a lot easier for him. Then he got a call from her, the day before she was going travel, and told him she was going to stay with a friend, London could wait. No wonder he doesn’t like suggesting things! I thought she was going to tell him she wasn’t coming at all for what ever reason, thank god that didn’t happen. But ditching him for a friend proves he’s an add on to her trip. Ugh." Oh ffs. Stupid, brain-effed woman. What a waste of a truly lovely-sounding gentleman son. Offering to pick her up from the airport?...going to all the rest of that trouble... and despite he's only - what is he? - 20? - and should still, technically, be up his own a*se and still incapable of 'running a bath'? She doesn't deserve him. STILL!...THE HAPPY NEWS IS - YOU'VE GOT HIM! :-) And you realise this, what I call the (probably) Final Insult is (probably) going to switch his focus more onto you and his relationship with you? It'll be like an invisible barrier's been removed. And then you'll be twins: one extra-good parent each (AND THANK EFF FOR THEM OR YOU TWO WOULD MOST LIKELY BE NARCS!...you don't stand a chance if both parents were narcissistically abusive, hot or cold style, makes no difference). "I wasn’t planning on meeting his mum. I didn't really want to. I was keeping quiet and hoping it wasn’t going to get mentioned but Dishy was quite keen...so I am now. after thinking about it, I think it might give me a better idea as to what she’s actually like (rather then judging her) and how they are together in person." OH, *GOD* YEAH?!? I want a full written psychoanalytical appraisal report! On my desk! The very next morning! Or whenever you're ready LOL. But you get my point. Psst! Be ready to help field or ignore any barbed comments, whether or not under the veil of 'just joking haha'. Example: Friend's mother to new, hot-prospect boyfriend of hers in response to an actual friendly, harmless tease: "...*long sigh*...I just don't know what happened, "Paul"......When she was little she was SUCH a gorgeous *angel*...[contemptuous tone] and now look.......And I know *all* mothers tend to say that, Paul, but, when I say it, I REALLY MEAN IT!". Friend's coolly-delivered, quick-as-lightning retort (thank uck): 'It's quite simple, Mother. I got to know *you* better'. (Yess!!! *air punch*) Okay, it wouldn't/couldn't have achieved anything to change her mother's aptness for unwarrantedly obnoxious behaviour (whilst expecting 24/7 stellar behaviour towards her royal self, of course), but it made friend feel better (and her bf get the truer picture - he couldn't help bursting out laughing!), and that's the main thing. The clue there, to me - along with all the other symptoms of course (gotta have your magic Pervasive and Pattern) - was, basically, 'When she was little (i.e. before she grew a mind of her own that didn't automatically agree with me over everything) she was (by my warped standards) an angel so I loved her to point of deemed her gorgeous. Now I barely rate her, to the point where I'd embarrass her in a scenario this vitally important to her'. Bleugh. Saying that, my advice would be *not* to rescue him from any nasty comments/acts and just 'be there'... depends on the severity - decide at the time. But helping can be managing the situation whereby it never hits rock-bottom/Showdown Time. Let him feel the (negative) force, if you can, Luke. (I do not know why I'm always quoting Star Wars - or Star Trek, which I also do - as I've never seen either of those films. Not one. Ever. Just FYI. LOL Have either of you, and are they any good? I.e. should I? Will my life be incomplete if I don't?) ************* "Nope not joking with NF’s mum. We were going to get a take away and watch a film because NFs birthday a week after, and we we’re going celebrate it and I thought it might relax things and her mum might be ok but no, she choose to leave." She chose to leave, KNOWING this? So she's not just bad, she's worse?? Here, maybe get NF's mum and Dishy's mum together whilst she's here? :-D (PS: Have you ever seen two equal-weight Narcs talk *at* each other - simultaneously - ie. over each other? It's hilarious.) Course, a normal mum, on seeing the face metal was false, would have said something akin to: Tsk!...Yes, ha ha, very funny...point taken... (whilst trying to stifle a smile or giggle). FYI. "IT not-Friend, the dirty, lying little git, left all the dirty plates and cups from his room in the kitchen without washing them, then buggered off home for Christmas!" Howzat for gross hypocrisy! Couldn't get any grosser, could you! (Symptom Tick!) Even if deliberate, it proves Revenge (so it's still a Tick). Put them all back on his bed again. Under his duvet. With a note saying, "You forgot these. x". DO NOT HAVE IT. Say it with me: WE *AIN'T*!....'AVIN' IT! You set the rule, Mr Man (wash-it-now-wash-it-now!) so if you want us to you're going to have to show us how it's done. Non-Negotiable. Or something equally putting-your-feet-down-ish. "I wanted to wash up but NF said to leave it and he can do them when he comes back." Oh! HAHAHAH! *Redundant SM Alert*. Crikey - she's 'blossomed' fast, hasnt' she!...Little Miss Ain't 'Avin' It, all of a sudden? That face-metal confrontation obviously released her. My cunning counter-plan worked - "hurrah!". :-) "Was really hard to leave them there" Yeah, I know. Believe you me (as a past house-sharer) - I know! "but I suppose she’s right," Yup. "but I wasn’t happy!" Nope. "I’m deciding what to say to him when I see him, if anything maybe NF and I will just be over apologetic. A girly kiss would freak him :-D." Nope. SAYING to these bozos has no effect. It's DOING. Only Actions Speak. Maybe hint (with full consent on the chap concerned's part, I should add) that one of the other male house - or both (how many are there?) - fancies him. I imagine he might just for some made-up reason move out rather swiftly, LOL [evil cackle]. It's more a fantasy plan but - hell, why not? - have a meeting and go for it if you want? Alternatively - yes, get the Sid Won't Say Sorry. Absolutely. If you're in a captive situation - HAVE FUN WITH IT. LOTS. TAKE THE PISS UNTIL IT ENDS UP IN YOUR PANTS! That's what I say. Anything to stay sane and never crossing over "to the dark side". Less Darth Vadar and more Daft Invader (obvs). ********** The next practical joke (cos you've to give her 3 chances to show she *is* capable of seeing the funny side of herself), is.... a pack of gold Condoms by her bed (her mum will see it, door closed or not, she'll find a way to take a nosy peek, don't you worry). ********** The book is about his childhood. You'll love it... the type where you're really sad you've reached the last page. *********** Bro and sis are probably arguing because releasing anger is a face-saving way to CRY for blokes still under the silly impression that men don't cry or let things get to them. And the gift thing just a great excuse. They're probably also sharpening their claws on each other, ready for any defense against you-know-who. PS: She didn't dump him just before or just after i.e. too close to Xmas by any chance, did she? *********** Nah, don't say where, I can work it out. :-) *********** Yes ta, but it didn't last long enough....flashed before my eyes. I sooooooooooooo need a holiday or just some bloody rest, ugh...[passes out gratuitiously... for piddly 2 minutes]. Anyhoo, I'll (hopefully) be able to post a bit more regularly once January's done and dusted. Possibly literally dusted - it's FREEZING today!

LILS, Soulmate What's new haven't heard a peep from either. How's things with you and Dishy LILS?

Hi, Things are very good with me and Dishy thanks Scopes :-). His mum is a ray of sunshine...NOT! I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who complains so much about everything. Including mine and Dishy’s train being late when we went to meet her, and that she had to wait an extra half an hour in the cold for us, like it was our fault. Dishy pointed out that there were quite a few cafes and shops that she could have gone into but she didn't seem to like that idea. So first impressions was that she was quite uptight and not that friendly but I think she’s quite an anxious person. doesn’t like eating out, didn't like going too far away from the train station, wouldn’t go on the underground doesn’t like the long escalators. Just a few things! She left after about 4 hours and it was almost a relief coz we were freeeeeeeee. She was quite snappy at times with Dishy but he responded to her by pointing things out to her or he changes the subject to a more positive one. When she’s really not happy or is unimpressed by something, she talked to him in french, and he replied in English. No idea if she liked me, we did have one ok conversation alone together without her being negative but it was hard work trying to keep it flowing. She’s quite shy too. I want to say I think there might a different person underneath, but I don’t know (this is after meeting dishys dad too). out of the 3 weeks Dishy saw his mum for a grand total of ...8 days, and those really were half days because he either had to do the travelling or his mum had plans with the friend she had been staying with. That was the other thing when she wasn’t complaining about something, she was going on what a nice time she’s was having with her friend. I met Dishy’s dad and step mum too over Xmas, and his gran (his dads mum). His dad is ok ...friendly at first but he’s a bit odd, dunno why it’s just the vibe I got from him. He wanted to know what I thought of Dishys mum and wanted to know what we did with her. I gave him a short reply, not going into too much detail, which was clearly not the response he wanted coz he kept on starring at me. awkward and quit starring! Not sure what he wanted me to say, Dishy wasn’t in the same room at the time so there was no rescuing from him. His Step mum and gran are both very nice, thank god, his gran in particular, she reminds me of auntie just less crazy. Dishy talks more (positively) about them then he does with his mum and dad. Yes I think he is slowly going separate himself from them he’s already said he’s not going to Canada for the whole summer this year. ******** Yep! NFs mum knew we were doing something for NFs bday, when she had a hissy fit about the fake piercings. will have to wait a bit for the next practical joke, she’s on a cruise with friends...without NF’s dad. but yeah I’m sure she managed to have a nose in most of the rooms at uni house. it-person (not exactly a friend anymore) looked very surprised when he saw his plates and cups were still in the kitchen, he very half heartedly washed them, tried to put them back in the cupboards but NF got them out and put them by the sink again coz they were not clean! And she did buy the Sid didn’t say sorry book and told me she’s gonna give it to It-person as a late Xmas present coz she doesn’t give a f*** anymore. Clearly. ********* Bro’s ex gf dumped him before Christmas. He did she was getting quite bossy with him, and it was starting to annoy him . Well dud has been quiet, might be speaking too soon, but haven’t heard anything from him Xmas or new year which makes me think he went away on holiday. :-/

LILS who is NF?

Narcissistic themed? I mean Narcissistic fiend?

NF (the nick name needs changing) is my house mate at uni and I’d say now one of my best friends :-). It’s her mum who I think is a narc.

Bear with - should be with you tomorrow night or Saturday!

'Saturday', as in Sunday. LOL - sorry. 1. I had no idea you and Dishy were train-drivers! LOL 2. Nah, if she'd taken the bleedin' obvious avoidant decision then - what would she have had as an excuse to dribble out her ever-regenerating, internal toxins into yours and Dishy's heads? These are the people we used to describe as, not being happy unless they have something to b*tch and complain about. I'd have found that too tempting to my tendency for sarcasm... something like, 'Yup, you've got us bang to rights! We bribed the driver to arrive late, JUST to piss you off so that we'd all be guaranteed a crap day together. And it worked - hurrah! Five Hundred quid well spent!'. Talk about Queen of Hearts. Or a stroppy, persecution-complex-ed, over-self-inflating teenager. Same thing, really, bar the positional power bit. Anyway - bleugh... she's giving me a headache and an urge to flick her face already. (PS: "Just a few things! " ROFL! Thanks, I needed that.) So, you two had a fun day, then? LOL..... I'll read on (but won't hold my breath if that's alright?)... 3. Didn't like going too far from the train station? What? Que? Expicas, por favor? 4. Only 4 bloody hours? I mean, obviously you were pleased but - that's beside the point!...that being, she hasn't seen him for - how long? Did she have somewhere to b- oh, wait, course she did. (Explicas no necessito ahora.) 5. "She was quite snappy at times with Dishy" ('Is she my above-described friend's mum (and has just got around alot), though?' :-p) "but he responded to her by pointing things out to her or he changes the subject to a more positive one. " What, you mean, exactly like how a Dad manages a toddler? Her behaviour is so wrong on so many levels, Lils. I mean, for starters, has she never heard of being on your best behaviour for your first encounter with your (presumably Only?) son's important new girlfriend? Or even - for a stranger? Or is that you don't matter, either? (Oh, God, any idiot can have a kid. It's not right, Lils. Bring in Pre-conceptive Psych Assessments - finally - *someone* - please!) It's looking like she left not just his dad and him, but the country, because her maternal instinct was seriously lacking, Lils. And still is. There's no Recovery to be seen on that score, eh. So why bother keeping up any communication? Insurance for her old age or something? Well, it ain't natural parental interest, is it - evidently. Selfish, self-obsessed cow. I do not like her, Sam-I-Am, I DO NOT LIKE Green sl*gs and actor-ham! Not in a box, not with a fox, not in the rain, not on a train (definitely not!).... Makes me want to adopt him and undo her damage. 666. "she talked to him in french" Dismissiveness as Belittlement and Triangulation: it could cause a fight between you two later if his loyalties felt torn, couldn't it. If he were thick. LUCKILY, HE'S NOT! :-)... ..."and he replied in English". Gold Star! Give him a ruddy great Loyalty & Protectiveness High Five from your 'penpal'. 6. "No idea if she liked me," As I've just highlighted - she neither liked nor disliked you; you have to care one way or the other for that. "...we did have one ok conversation alone together without her being negative but it was hard work trying to keep it flowing. She’s quite shy too. I want to say I think there might a different person underneath, but I don’t know (this is after meeting dishys dad too)." Don't ever let your generous and forgiving mind fool you into making excuses for them, Lily. Shyness and fundamental self-awareness, manners & courtesies have never been mutually exclusive. Well, whatever. The woman's got a huge problem if she doesn't even know how to behave with other people and 'VIPs' at her ripe age. What was she raised in - a tree? 7. "out of the 3 weeks Dishy saw his mum for a grand total of ...8 days, and those really were half days because he either had to do the travelling or his mum had plans with the friend she had been staying with. That was the other thing when she wasn’t complaining about something, she was going on what a nice time she’s was having with her friend." FOUR days, then. Stretched out. Tell her I said f**k off. She doesn't deserve my professionalism [insert big, fat raspberry + middle finger]. 8. "His dad is ok ...friendly at first but he’s a bit odd, dunno why it’s just the vibe I got from him." Oh, great. (Is he an engineer or computer programmer or anything like that?) Well, aside from 'a bit odd' - did HE treat you like a special guest and person? Or the step-mum? 9. "which was clearly not the response he wanted coz he kept on [staring] at me." Over-hungry for news, was he? I hope his wife didn't witness this veiled and highly inappropriate - and equally self-unaware - pestering? PS: Next time say that: 'I'm not sure what you want me to say'. And maybe add in a quieter, conspiratorial voice, 'And I'm not really sure if this is appropriate?'. QUESTION: Have you told Dishy about this bit? What did he say? 10. "His Step mum and gran are both very nice, thank god," PHEW! "his gran in particular, she reminds me of auntie just less crazy." LOL! Well, you can't have everything. 11. "Dishy talks more (positively) about them then he does with his mum and dad." Interestink. I'll file that for later, Mish Moneypenny. 12. "Yes I think he is slowly going separate himself from them he’s already said he’s not going to Canada for the whole summer this year." Ditto. Methinks he got to see them 'as you'....through *your* eyes. Would have helped to loosen the umbilicus a fair bit, I imagine? PS: So where's he going, then? Heh-heh... start mentally packing, Lily (Ten Quid?). ******* (I knew the asterisks would get to you eventually, LOL) (But genuinely - cheers. (Y)) 13. "he’s already said he’s not going to Canada for the whole summer this year." Sorry, LOL, couldn't resist. Real 13. "Yep! NFs mum knew we were doing something for NFs bday, when she had a hissy fit about the fake piercings. will have to wait a bit for the next practical joke, she’s on a cruise with friends" Is she?!? Ooh, and it's blowing a gale out there! (Note to self: behave) (Note back to self: spoilsport :p) "...without NF’s dad." OH REALLY? Why's that? "but yeah I’m sure she managed to have a nose in most of the rooms at uni house." Noted. "it-person (not exactly a friend anymore)" Funny how that works, isn't it. Apparently, to some, it's rocket science. " looked very surprised when he saw his plates and cups were still in the kitchen, he very half heartedly washed them, tried to put them back in the cupboards but NF got them out and put them by the sink again coz they were not clean!" Woah. You've created a monster - which, considering, before, she was a mouse, makes her just about the right size now (nice to you if you're nice, not if you're not)... but who knew she had THAT in her? LOL And, oh, is she practising on him in prep for The Big Fight with the mother ship or what! Watch that daughter-mother space, Lils. "And she did buy the Sid didn’t say sorry book and told me she’s gonna give it to It-person as a late Xmas present" Nah, it won't work now, it's been too long. Instead, I recommend the Good Housekeeping book or similar. Or, if there is such a thing, 'How To Wash Up'. "...coz she doesn’t give a f*** anymore. Clearly." I should cocoa?! Tell her to go carefully and remember he's not actually her mother, though (just in case she goes OTT and pulverises him). For all she knows, he's manoeuvring her into the role of Quasi Mum (unfinished business). Here's a $6m question, therefore: did he do as she insisted and re-wash them? Because, I'll tell ya: if not the above manoeuvring, then, this is smacking of passive-aggression, whereby the bloke either repeatedly or in one, giant fell swoop does whatever job the woman wants him to do, BADLY (oopth...thoreee (not)). So badly she would rather just plump for the (so-called) easier life by doing it herself and never asking him again (aim-fire-bullseye). So GOOD ON HER! It may have worked on his mum but it clearly isn't going to work on her. (If the clash were over something that *didn't* affect her and you directly, however, I'd be advising her to ignore-ignore-ignore.) I'm really gobsmacked at how rapidly this beaten-up soldier has got off the floor and got back into the ring, though, I must say. New name suggestion: TC (tough cookie...when no longer being positively sat on by a mental heffalump). But she's your friend so you get to pick. ********** "Bro’s ex gf dumped him before Christmas. He did she was getting quite bossy with him, and it was starting to annoy him ." Do we suppose it might have annoyed him less if he wasn't still bristling at Present, Past and Future Dud? "Well dud has been quiet, might be speaking too soon, but haven’t heard anything from him Xmas or new year which makes me think he went away on holiday. :-/" Did HE go on a cruise? (LOL, I did me best.)

I've got it! Fisher Price type of play-kitchen-sink, washing-up set accessories. Gloves, sponge, brush, teatowel...that sort of thing. Or a fancy wine-bottle carrier/box containing a big bottle of Fairy Liquid. (It's got me laughing, anyway.)

And/or joke rubber gloves.... ostentatious, joke ones with ostrich feather cuffs, that sort of thing. Or a kitchen apron personalised with a giant, Red, Learner L. ...Or the word 'Scrubber'. (I could go on. LOL)

Here, Scopes! "LILS who is NF?" Do feel to read while you're keeping company? :-D [Foghorn Leghorn voice:] Have you- I say- have you been sleep- I say- sleeping on the job, boy?

Tsk. 'Feel free' (obvs) My cue for bed. Bloody hell, it's nearly 5am!

Tsk tsk I was just joking about NF soulmate.

[Rings bell]....ding! Pause...rings bell again...ding! [Another pause]..PSSSSST...PSSSSSSST! Desk clerk looks over frowns. Ahem... MONSIEUR! What eez zeeess PSSSSST PSSSSST PSSSSST???

Excuse me, Desk Clerk, where's the maitre'd? I'd like to order a pint of whatever Monsieur Scopes [- no pronouncing the S] "eez a-veeng".

Lily's obviously super-busy (snogging 'n stuff) at the mo. Still, it's nice to, for once, not constantly be the only White Rabbit on the block! :-) Be as late as you like, Lils. Scopes can keep the lurkers entertained with a poem about...um........Real Ale! Take it awaaay, Scopsie! :-D

"Tsk tsk I was just joking about NF soulmate." Yeah? LOL. Here's my "I really believe you" face ---> :-p

Soulmate that actually happened, i witnessed the whole episode. It was in Paris a long long time ago. Could've been a scene in a Peter Sellers movie.

Hi Oops didn’t realise how long it has actually been! Yep been quite busy snoggin’ and stuff :-p. Well, the trip with Dishy’s mum ended with her wanting him it take her to airport...so he did. Taxi! He had to go to his mums friends house where she was staying, pick her up, then drive her to the airport, then once they got to the airport she wanted him to help her with her luggage not just say goodbye and drop her off, and then he had drive back home again. If that was dud I would of told him to sod off but dishy is still learning. Dishy then went a bit quiet.. he had told me he usually needs a few days after he’s seen his mum to reflect. But he did talk too. He’s told her now that he’s not going to Canada for the whole summer this year, maybe a week and he’s given her his reasons, which was met with no remorse. Just her reacting angrily. Don’t think they have spoken since :-/. Out of his step mum and dad it was his step mum who was the most welcoming, and made me feel relaxed. his dad just kind of lurked in he back ground but was nice enough to start with. I don’t think she heard him asking me about his ex wife, I hope not. And I did tell Dishy and he agreed is wasn’t right, he didn’t leave me alone with him after that! ******* Ahh Tough Cookie that’s a good one! There was a bit of stand off between TC and It-person. He asked her why she kept putting his plates back by the sink and she looked at him as if she was stupid and pointed out all the bits of food still stuck to them and she told him she’s was going to keep on doing it. He had a bit of a tantrum walked out of the room but since he’s actually been washing his stuff up properly with washing up liquid *shock*. TC says her mum goes on holiday with her friends, sometimes husbands go too, sometimes they don’t! She said her dad rarely goes coz her mum manages to fall out with her friends, and it’s all a drama. I’m pleased for TC coz for a whole month she got to speak to her dad, and meet up with him with no interruptions from HER. But apprently she didn’t have a nice time coz of the storms and toward the everyone was sick with a sickness bug that was going around . She’s coming to visit soon... yippie... ******* Ugh, My mum is seeing Teach again, even though he’s moved away coz of his job, she’s been driving to see him at the weekends. She didn’t tell me this, auntie did. When I’ve spoken to my mum she’s been making out to me how busy she’s been at the weekends, reason why I haven’t gone home to visit, never any mention of him though! Not too impressed. She’s goes all secretive when he’s involved. Bro and sis don’t want to go with my mum, probably because it’s boring, and a bit weird for them, so auntie has been keeping eye on them or had them to stay at her house. Auntie is concerned but doesn’t want to say anything in case they fall out. I don’t think it will last but I don’t like the fact the sibs are being left out :-| but I don’t think it will be long until one of them complains if they haven’t already. So this weekend is the first weekend in weeks that I’m going to be home to see them all and find out what’s going on! Could do without this, I kinda just want to go home and chill 8=)

LILS Soulmate With this widespread pandemic panic I just don't know what to say except. GIMME MY TOILET PAPER DAMN IT! NOT! Bloody worth it's weight in gold

Hey, I know it’s crazy isn’t it? People panic buying makes me angry! Why toilet roll?! My auntie told me she has been confronting panic buyers when she spots them and asking them if they are going to leave anything for anyone else. I think the supermarkets should make up a new job role. It feels very weird at the moment and people seem to think they are invincible. Had to endure TC’s mum at the weekend even though TC told her not to come. Her mum shrieked down the phone at her she could do what she wanted, she deserved some sort of Mother’s Day (don’t think you do love!) and that uni house was probably disgusting and in need of cleaning anyway. Er, it’s not thanks! TC didn’t actually let her clean anything so she was very sarcastic and moody. Our payback was we got the big box of condoms out, ordered a while ago especially for this day :-D, and put them in TCs room coz we knew she would have a nose around her room :-D. Sense of humour failure again! I did have a moment and thought about I contacting dud to see if he’s ok but decided against it.

CONDOMS?? Git ewt! Well let's all git ewwt!! LILS good to do a little spring cleaning I say. Hey we're actually starting to be to get toilet paper! Meanwhile me 401k dwindles sigh...

Aware you're waiting - bear with, guys! As you can imagine, it's been non-stop chaos all around, friends in trouble, stranded in foreign countries, etc., etc., etc...

PS: Lily, did you and your housemates/friends remember to stand in your garden at 8pm and applaud loudly for all the NHS staff and carers? I'll do it here as well: THANK-YOU, NHS ANGELS EVERYWHERE!!!!!

Yes I did remember was up lifting but found it quite emotional too!

This whole ordeal is like a twilight zone episode that became real!

LILS Soulmate This Corona virus has reached almost catastrophic proportions. This will go down in history as things worsen. I hope all is well with you both Stay safe

Hey-hey (finally), I thought I'd have time to myself this lock-down period. But OHHHH, NO...everyone else had other ideas. Sorry, guys. Let me paste you back in, save me scrolling: ************************************************************************************************** "Oops didn’t realise how long it has actually been! Yep been quite busy snoggin’ and stuff :-p. Well, the trip with Dishy’s mum ended with her wanting him it take her to airport...so he did. Taxi! He had to go to his mums friends house where she was staying, pick her up, then drive her to the airport, then once they got to the airport she wanted him to help her with her luggage not just say goodbye and drop her off, and then he had drive back home again. If that was dud I would of told him to sod off but dishy is still learning." Evidently! "Dishy then went a bit quiet.. he had told me he usually needs a few days after he’s seen his mum to reflect. But he did talk too." Unsurprisingly. I would, too. Course he did. Your his teammate and so you share - including brainpower lending. (Tick! - although, he's passed, already - this stage, I mean.) "He’s told her now that he’s not going to Canada for the whole summer this year, maybe a week and he’s given her his reasons, which was met with no remorse." Course not. "Just her reacting angrily." Tick, tick, tickety-tick. She's ticking too many boxes, isn't she. "Don’t think they have spoken since :-/." Understandable. And probably best. He's getting a girlfriend, a lead to follow, and enlightenment, all-in-one. That makes you one better than a BOGOF, Lils, LOL. "Out of his step mum and dad it was his step mum who was the most welcoming, and made me feel relaxed. his dad just kind of lurked in he back ground but was nice enough to start with. I don’t think she heard him asking me about his ex wife, I hope not. And I did tell Dishy and he agreed is wasn’t right, he didn’t leave me alone with him after that!" Good. ******* "Ahh Tough Cookie that’s a good one!" TC it is, then. (Also stands for Top Cat - remember the teatime cartoon? It was the kids' version of Sgt. Bilko, doncha know.) "There was a bit of stand off between TC and It-person. He asked her why she kept putting his plates back by the sink" For the sheer fun of it, of course. (Oh, don't they just love playing dumb.) "and she looked at him as if she was stupid and pointed out all the bits of food still stuck to them and she told him she’s was going to keep on doing it. He had a bit of a tantrum" (Tip for her: all well and good going to battle with them when required, but try to expend less energy. E.g. 'Why do you think?' as a rhetorical question or 'Duuh?' - both before walking off or switching your attention (- "arguing the inarguable is not an option"). Oh did he now (tantrum). Right on-script, then. How old - or should I say, how young - did he reveal himself to be? "walked out of the room" Noted. "but since he’s actually been washing his stuff up properly with washing up liquid *shock*." Okayyy. Would seem he secretly likes it. Incomplete Parenting. "The Parental Seeker." Or could be Older Sibling Seeker - someone to scrap with and wind up but at the same time get taken care of by (which obviously he has to make a good show of resisting - at first - for his ego's sake ("I didn't wanna and I don't need her, but she MADE me"...all that nonsense)? He's very mild though, I think.... just the over-frustrating and irritating type that makes you want to strangle them. "TC" Who? (lol, jj) "says her mum goes on holiday with her friends, sometimes husbands go too, sometimes they don’t!" Interestink. Why only sometimes? Do she and her, presumably also married, friends all belong to the 'I can only take him in small doses' club? Or are we talking 'Wheyhey, let's get off with the Greek waiters!'? Did you pick up on whether and which? "She said her dad rarely goes coz her mum manages to fall out with her friends, and it’s all a drama." So she's stuck somewhere between ...crikey - this is girls we're talking about!, LOL, so... anywhere between 9 and 16, then. "I’m pleased for TC coz for a whole month she got to speak to her dad, and meet up with him with no interruptions from HER. But apprently she didn’t have a nice time coz of the storms and toward the everyone was sick with a sickness bug that was going around ." 'What goes a-round a-comes a-round,...my! bay-ay-beee...' "She’s coming to visit soon... yippie..." Oh great. Hmmm, wait up..... housemite-I mean mate still needs mothering, smother still needs a Barbie doll to be in-charge of and hug too tightly.... INTRODUCE THEM PROPERLY! Ask her to teach him some domestic skills! It might work, i.e. she might and he might let her, you never know. She'll have a project, he'll have a surrogate mum in the form of a finishing school, LOL. (Or rather, civilising school.) ******* "Ugh, My mum is seeing Teach again," Oh, what!? "even though he’s moved away coz of his job, she’s been driving to see him at the weekends. She didn’t tell me this, auntie did. When I’ve spoken to my mum she’s been making out to me how busy she’s been at the weekends, reason why I haven’t gone home to visit, never any mention of him though! Not too impressed. She’s goes all secretive when he’s involved." Backslide Alert! Cause: nagging ovaries, probably (hopefully only). This indicates he left her hanging last time, no proper closure. Her ego wants back the chunk he stole. The good news is she knows how it is and/or how it looks. Hence strangely failed to tell you, her Jimminy Cricket. Interesting she did tell auntie, though. Conclusion: definitely the ovaries, hence not the sort of confession you feel comfortable making to your own daughter. Plus, Auntie's a tad wary of asserting herself now. She's being silly, though. If you knew the amount of domestic-romantic victims who initially intended nothing more than a casual fling...! Probably a good two thirds of them (because women are apt to confuse feelings of pity/compassion for passion - as well as think they can't re-grow the ego bite he took out of them and must chase him to get it back). They work on you...chip-chip-chip at the boundaries and mind-clarity and confidence/independence....until, soon enough, the unreasonable feels reasonable or at least plausible, and you're letting them borrow your pigging car or / until you're letting them move in. Better to stay away altogether. Have you confronted her or hinted? Or did auntie ask you not to? "Bro and sis don’t want to go with my mum, probably because it’s boring, and a bit weird for them," Course. "so auntie has been keeping eye on them or had them to stay at her house. Auntie is concerned but doesn’t want to say anything in case they fall out." Ah-hah, there is it. Definitely wary from last time, then. If it helps, I always say: I'd rather you hate me for a while than see you live for years with bitter regret plus recriminations over the fact I didn't shake you awake hard enough. Could be worse, I could fail to give a sh*t - or enough of one. :-p "I don’t think it will last but I don’t like the fact the sibs are being left out :-|" Me neither. It's unwittingly neglectful when they're still injured and needing extra attention and discipline/management, rather than less. Ditto when it comes to feeling your mum's love or sex-life comes before them and their needs. Not good. It'd be alright if he were alright. But we already know he is - by the extent of how much he d*cked her around and upset her. Going by the, what must have been roaring or ultimatum-ing that now has Auntie The Brave hesitatantly biting her lip - VERY. "but I don’t think it will be long until one of them complains if they haven’t already." Well, if auntie daren't, I doubt they would - think about it. They'd probably wait until hurt and anger hit critical, enough to obliterate their reticence. "So this weekend is the first weekend in weeks that I’m going to be home to see them all and find out what’s going on!" Good. Keep me posted. Remind her that 'salvation through her kids' (without spoiling them) is THE fastest route to recovery - at which point she won't sacrifice her pride and dignity for a flakey creep who's already emotionally hurt her because she'll have bonded so much more deeply with you three, which will fulfil her needs for security/intimacy and.... put more simply, the 'beer goggles' won't be an influence, she'll see him for what he is. She'll be a weekly supermarket shop-er but one who's only just eaten a gorgeous three course meal. "Could do without this, I kinda just want to go home and chill 8=)" Wel-cooome too-myyyyyy wooooooooorld. (Commiserations.) ************************** Scopes: "LILS Soulmate With this widespread pandemic panic I just don't know what to say except. GIMME MY TOILET PAPER DAMN IT! NOT! Bloody worth it's weight in gold." You wouldn't be able to flush it, but you could burn or compost it: STRIPS OF NEWSPAPER. :-) PS: It'll go down in history even if it doesn't worsen. But - it'll be fine. We're programmed and evolved to cope with this sort of thing - and worse. It just feels Twighlight Zone-ish because it's the first World War you've been involved in. Albeit that, this time it's an invader that's non-human. Nature is doing what Nature does best and very regularly (if you stand right back): showing humans that, regardless of their being up their own arrogant a*ses, THEY are no match for her and her very nice, tidy, successful system, thank-youp! But it definitely was needed and definitely will prove itself to have been a huge blessing in surprise. I kid you not, I've been predicting something like this for the last decade or more. Something had to give. The good news is, people will have new-found like and respect for one another - AND...all the snakes, due to the pressure having smoked them more firmly out of their holes (e.g. shopkeepers charging quadruple for newborn nappies), showing everyone exactly who, or rather, what they are (or rather, are not). People remember. And thereafter, shun and avoid. Same happened after WWII. It's smoking most of them out and sending them down the pan (think about it), into homelessness. For example (I can hear it now): "I could just about put up with this money-sucking Chucky character when I had enough monthly income, but....not now, not any more, I have to get rid". Parasite (carefully, skillfully) thrown out - cos it's the victim's house - all of his/her in-the-wings harem now likewise too hard-up to 'lend' him money or a bed for 'the night'....onto the streets he goes. I'm talking the king of parasitic predators - the Sociopathic/AsPD Narcissist. Unable to con and use and steal behind closed doors, they'll have to rely on petty crime of the street variety...."NEE-NOR-NEE-NOR...!", into the slammer. Probably why the first thing Boris did (because they'll have known about Corona long before it hit the media, don't you worry) was (re-)increase the Police numbers.... ready for when. And, given that the Sociopaths (your thick psychos) are the ones that destroy MULTIPLE lives, SIMULTANEOUSLY (harem/girl or guy in every port) that'll free up social and victim services' resources for the strictly behind closed doors brigade.... and so on and so forth, HURRAH! We're losing in the short-term but winning long-term. They're winning short-term, losing long-term. So yes, guys, this is indeed a Twighlight Zone version of a Nature versus Man war - to weed out the worst and most Treasury-taxing of the Cluster Bs, type Malignant. The Twilight Tw*ts. They operate in a half-light - think about it. Anyhoo... me, I've been (preventatively) self-isolating since mid February. I can't afford to go down, too many other people are depending on me (meh) to keep their heads above the water as well as my own. But actually, I'm really enjoying it. You will too if you recognise it for the giant opportunity it is. Lemons into Lemonade, remember? The survivor-prosperor's mantra. :-)

" in the form of a finishing school, LOL. (Or rather, civilising school.)" Just to clarify: on a practical level only...how to make his bed so you can bounce a 10p off it, etc. :-D

Soulmate, LILS Everyone alright?

Hey-hey, I'm fine, ta, just still strangely busy. Suspect that's all, with Lils too. You alright?

I'm just fine, I ride my new bicycle every day. So do alot of other people since all of the gyms are closed. Walmart sold out of every bicycle and all the fabric materials are bare picked clean. Everyone is making their own masks On a positive note toilet paper is coming back! What a story that will go down in history!

Hi, All good with me thanks. I’ve gotten into a nice routine of early morning run...well, actually that’s got later and later...but still it’s exercise. uni work is keeping me busy and most afternoons sis (and sometimes auntie) FaceTimes me and we do some sort of art/crafting thing together, wasn’t not really my thing but i like it now it’s quite relaxing and made quite a few things. I have been on a few walks with dishy but being good and keeping 2 meters apart, which is rubbish I think I’d rather talk to him on FaceTime, feels safer too! He’s been very sweet and is helping out two elderly neighbours going to the shops for them. apparently one of them doesn’t understand social distancing and keeps asking him in for tea, but he’s not afraid to say no - why I like him :-). Anyhoo, dishy has needed to vent. I think his mum is as emotionally intelligent as dud. She eventually contacted him after a few weeks of not speaking and told him she’s been very upset that he was so blunt with her about not visit but is putting down to the virus. So she’s choosing not to acknowledge the real reasons ...nice! It frustrated him at first and says he wasn’t blunt with her, just factual , I believe him. Think she’s going to learn the hard way coz he doesn’t really want to speak to her. Erm there is something weird going on with TC and it-person, they are flirting with each other non stop and spending time together in each other’s rooms :-/. Dunno if it’s boredom or if all along they actually liked each other. It person hinted a very long time ago before we lived together that he did like her and he was quite excited about being house mates but never did anything about it. I personally don’t like him as a person and I think shown his true colours a few times. I’ll let them figure it out! My mum hasn’t been back to see Teach since I went home coz of the virus and I’m hoping she won’t bother when when it is all over. When I talked to her about it she was a bit defensive but when I pointed out what he’s done, she gets it. Sis was really angry that my mum had left her and bro to go and visit him, she just didn’t show how angry until I brought it up :-/ this is one of the reasons why I’m talking to her most days. I don’t thinks sis very happy at the moment and she’s still wobbling over dud. She asks questions like should she contact dud and try to build a relationship with him? Her reasoning was they can’t meet up coz of the virus so it can be done slowly, she liked the idea of not having to see him if he suggested it. I understand why she’s been thinking about it, in the very beginning I thought about it too, briefly, then decided not to. Then dud sent us all letter this week, which sis read out to me, all about him and how wonderful he is because he ‘sometimes’ (probably not all ) works at the local hospital to him. Oh and he hopes we will start contacting him soon and this virus should be a lesson to us, as to why we shouldn’t hold grudges, life is too short. Hmm thanks dud I’ll think about it... not. I asked sis how she felt about contacting him after he sent that and she’s changed her mind!

Glad to hear that your ok Stay home,stay safe and keep up the social distancing. Doctor dud will be just fine

LILS, Soulmate?

Hi scopes :-)

Hi LILS good to hear from you :-)

Scopes? LOL No need to panic. Remember, with moi, it's never If, just When. Looks like it's the same with Lils as well, eh, Lils. :-) Glad you two are having fun, swanning around :-p. Me, I'm still rushing around like a mad thing, so I don't need any more exercise thanks, much as I'd like to be cycling around the countryside right now (early Summer to make up for the over-long Winter - woohoo!). It's more calories followed by time to sit around doing nothing that I need. But I don't have time! Probably why I've been developing a strange craving for dark chocolate. Have you tried the Lindt Excellence stuff? It's... well - excellent! LOL I'm into the Mint or Plain, but there's also Raspberry, Cherry, Orange...and some other flavours I can't recall (cos they're a bit too sweet for me, albeit that I know other people like them). Classy, delicious stuff, and far healthier than Milk. Shame I'm not getting paid for bigging it up, eh! LOL Psst! I've Now got a (very) visible six-pack. :-) Literally, even at rest, my stomach feels rock hard to the touch/prod. Haven't had one of those for....ooohhhhhh...... LOL, let's leave it at 'ooh' and, you get the gist. ....That's the upside. Downside is - I now need TWO secretaries! Oh - and quite serious dental work. One bottom molar cracked in half - you can see the core of the tooth (mmm, sexy!)...well, you can't, actually, not unless I showed you. I'm not one of those whose bottom teeth show when you talk. Or at all. I'd have to pull down my lower lip and go, 'Looook'...to which you'd go, 'OMG!' then 'Ugh'. Those have been the reactions so far, anyway. Plus another half-cracked bottom molar on the opposite side. And a crack in my, again, bottom, front tooth. Yayyy! I'm not in any pain though. Why? (And I hope others with dental probs see this.) SALTWATER. Nothing (- well, nothing that can threaten us) can survive in it, least of all bacteria. If there's pain, there's infection present. So I'm every day, morning, noon and night, holding room temperature, VERY salty water in my gob around said wounds. Is it working? You betcha! They are no worse than when they occurred (about 2 months back), and are just sat there...albeit I do have to brush those areas veeery gently with the softest brush available and am mostly chewing with my front and backmost teeth (what fun). (I bloody hope I haven't just jinxed myself by saying that, LOL-gulp.) (Edit: For the last 2 months, it seems to be working (put it that way) (phew, that was close!).) Anyhoo...Late afternoon/early evening runs and cycle rides are the nicest, I find. Dusk is my favourite time of day, in fact. In Summer, I mean. Or midday through dappled sunshine, i.e. a walk in the woods (with me broomstick). Talking of facts (always): Did you guys hear? During this Lockdown, calls to the National Domestic Abuse Helpline have increased by a whopping (please be seated) ....FOUR...... HUNDRED..... PERCENT. Yeah, what a surprise. ...Not. Put something wholesome and nutritious into a pressure cooker and you end up with a satisfying meal. Put sh*t into a pressure cooker and....., innit. That simple. And, of course, scams have majorly increased, as well. Can't remember by what percentage...would go check, but can't be a*sed (soooooo tired) (- tired but happy, no worries :-)). Those and other negative knock-on effects, including financial (meh), and not least the horrid deaths of the bodily vulnerable everywhere, aside - there *are* still a lot of positives. I'm quite enjoying this lock-down. What's not to love about going back to the 1970s?.... or so I've heard, LOL. I imagine a lot of prior gym-goers will realise - or is it 'remember'? - that they don't need to go indoors to exercise (*rolls eyes*) and could actually put the dosh to better use? Plus, everyone's using their local stores considerably more than before. And neighbours are getting to know one another far better, to point of becoming firm friends, equalling, communities becoming tighter (as it should be). And so on and so forth. We're being forced back to basics, more. The societal and lifestyle chaff is going to get discarded, whereby only the stuff that really, actually matters will remain. The George Floyd - IN MY OPINION - 'murder', is decidedly *not* good, though. Good will come *out* of it - racism will finally get its comeuppance, same as any power-exploiters and abusers in any walk of life. But - my God. I couldn't believe what I was watching. Jaw - Desk - Clunk! Literally, I sat there at my screen, just going, 'No...............No.................No-no-no................No', over and over. And then I got so angry. So the less said about that the better...or I literally won't shut up for weeks. Talk about too-long-ignored societal issue coming finally to a head, though? They won't get away with it. Not this time. Lils, are you still following LBC? I don't suppose you heard Majid Nawaaz's little 'potential epiphany' (regarding his own present-future potential) earlier today (Sunday)? I don't think he himself has cottoned-on yet. But I've been listening to him included, all-day-every-day as I've worked, for the last - ooohhhhhh.... (suffice to say yet again LOL) ...and have been thinking EXACTLY what occurred to him today but which he dismissed as "just as a coincidence". Oh yeah? News for you, Mr Mouthy-But-Do-Gooding-&-Good-Looking-Campaigny-Chops: NO SUCH THING. It's not a coinkydinky. It's a sign. And your eyes hit wide enough for you to see it. Ber-bom. (Well, he's had the idea hatch so... won't be long before he takes the idea seriously. We hope. But in short (if he or anyone who knows him is reading): he had the idea/spotted the sign because he was meant to and was ready to. Preparation Stage One.) Well, anyway, if you didn't hear his show, I probably sound like a lunatic. So you'll have to go podcast it, won't you. :-) His reading of the sign post came at the end of his show, fittingly enough. Well, I recognised his reading of the signpost, anyway. Even if he didn't (yet). Right, enough chatting and, to your latest, Lils: "I have been on a few walks with dishy but being good and keeping 2 meters apart, which is rubbish" Cripes, that must be *really* hard to do! God - re-spect to both of you for resisting the temptation to hug and hold hands (n stuff)! "He’s been very sweet and is helping out two elderly neighbours going to the shops for them." Ahhhh.... :-) "apparently one of them doesn’t understand social distancing and keeps asking him in for tea, but he’s not afraid to say no - why I like him :-)." Oooh. How manly. :-) (But don't you mean, JUST ONE of the reasons why I like him - of which there are many? ;-)) (English Lessons have resumed, look, LOL) "Anyhoo, dishy has needed to vent. I think his mum is as emotionally intelligent as dud. " Me too. Scopes three. Everyone else here, alongside.....however many that is - considering only the truly patient reader will survive...(*theatrical cackle*).... This is the mental marathon-runners' thread, eh, guys. "She eventually contacted him after a few weeks of not speaking and told him she’s been very upset that he was so blunt with her about not visit but is putting down to the virus." She's putting it down to the virus? How convenient a (nother) self-delusion. Cos then she doesn't have to look at herself and how she is towards him to make him feel so strong that way, Big Fat Eh! (...stupid cow) (- well, really!) (I mean - how's about 'Why were you so blunt with me about it, sweetheart? Is there anything wrong? Have I done something to upset you and make you mad at me? Or is it because of this lockdown?) Lockdown-wise, the timing's out, anyway, isn't it? Did he TELL her the real reasons, though, or did he just let her sit in her little delusion? Whatever. I'll say it again: if my only child behaved that way with me, I'd want to know why. Immediately. If his resentment were valid, i.e. substantiable via actual events and reality - you know, that stuff called evidence (that they care nothing for) - or even if it weren't and were just a misunderstanding - then, I'd want to know what it was about me or what I was doing or what he mistakenly THOUGHT I were doing...just get to the bottom of it, so that I could REMOVE that resentment barrier to a return to harmonious relations WITH MY ONLY CHILD. Christ. I'd call Matron but I hear she's extra busy lately. What kind of grown-up mother 'doesn't speak to' her son, anyway? (Why, even after all this time, can I not stop finding these (er) individuals so shocking and revolting and repulsive and infuriating yet annoyingly-repulsively pitiful and-and-and- ...UGH! Why?!) "It frustrated [- yeah, that's what I'm talking about!] him at first and says he wasn’t blunt with her, just factual , I believe him." So do I. But - Factual....Blunt. Who cares. Style does not trump substance. Ever. But the indisputable fact of his not having pussyfoot-ed around was, alone, a BIT OF A GIANT SCOOBY CLUE, DOESN'T SHE THINK? Or what - does he ALWAYS talk to her like that? Can't do!...otherwise she wouldn't have noticed and pulled him up on it! SEE WHAT GOBBLEDEEGOOK HER AVOIDANCE TACTIC IS?! No, she doesn't (think). Ever. Because that way leads to airing the Pandora's Box. And an opened Pandora Box is an opened Pandora Box, meaning, so much other stuff, even from as far back as childhood (doubtlessly), might force its way out alongside, hence, even the very thought of sitting down and thinking things through 'in his shoes' terrifies her. And that's her whole problem. Somebody, however far back, broke - or badly re-routed - certain of her brain parts...or caused her to start repeatedly and consistently behaving in ways that caused it itself. You can SEE it! His mum's basically a nutter in the emotional side of her brain plus has a wholly inadequate connection between her brain hemisphere. End Of. ...Not nutter enough not to be able to work and pay taxes and contribute to society (yeah, right!...as the govt have finally stopped to count/realise). But nutter enough that other, non-corrupted beings cannot operate or co-exist with them within any useful closeness of range, and anything they touch turns to shite (the Reverse Midas). I'd say those two skills - pack cooperativeness and productivity - were the greatest and most vital in the world, actually, wouldn't you? World leaders are going to *have* to cease pratting around and find an actual cure for your Cluster Bs, you know. Maybe in the not-so-distant future we'll have the technology to re-build [re-wire] them, gentlemen (- name the 70s/early 80s American series!) (Scopes will remember, I expect?). Or what the hell are we going to do with them?? It's all coming to the surface and to a head like a huuuge, overly long-term-festering zit, guys. Again, I've been predicting this for bloody years (and working underground on bringing it up from under)! So I'm very happy and relieved about it, and to have been a part of that movement. The other credit goes to this current pressure-cooker, called Covid + Lockdown. ....FOUR HUNDRED percent. And, OH, haven't some of the 'outsidie, on-the-street' lot been showing it just recently! Even being smoked-out of ostensibly GOOD long grass!...Dem snakes. Plus snakes with badges. HOW OVERLY ACUTELY OR LONG-TERM CHRONICALLY MISERABLE AND THEREBY EFFED IN THE HEAD DO YOU HAVE TO BE TO REFUSE TO TAKE A MAN'S PLEAS THAT, BY YOUR ACTIONS AND YOURS ALONE, HE CAN BARELY *BREATHE* - TO EVEN DARE *RISK* DISMISSING THE FACT HE MIGHT ACTUALLY BE TELLING YOU THE TRUTH! - TO THE LONG, DRAWN-OUT POINT WHERE HE FINALLY LOSES CONSCIOUSNESS AND EXPIRES?????? AND WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BELIEVE THAT NOT EVEN A (PRESUMABLY) NARC COPPER CAN HAVE THE THOUGHT THAT, OOPS, HE'D BETTER NOT RISK PERSISTING "JUST IN CASE"...? BUT THE SAME (ER) BLOKIE CAN HOLD DOWN A POLICE CAREER FOR HOWEVER MANY YEARS JUST FINE? Yeah, right. I mean, I know they've no concern for consequences, but - THAT FAR???? I think the problem was simple: he didn't - because he couldn't - or worse, could but wouldn't! - care 'if'. I would say, throw away the key. But I'm not interested in treatment/cure (of the symptoms only), whatever you want to call it. I'm interested in prevention and removal. Oops, I've started. Best I stop, methinks. Back to your post... "Think she’s going to learn the hard way" Well, unfortunately, after everything you've described - I'm afraid I don't. I think the 'degree and extent' of her includes the inability (i.e. completely lost ability) to learn and change one's ways. Or to even face and admit there's any problem from her end whatsoever (blah blah). I think she's "well stunted". I think he's emotionally older and more mature than his mother. It's role-reversal, plainly, isn't it, when you stop to think about it. Imagine he's the father to her spoilt, selfish, moody, thoughtless, etc., teenager. Start from the airport collection...(or as far back as he's described from!) - under that light. IT FITS, RIGHT? Not just the moods but the gobsmacking level (minimisation alert) of taking for granted. Seeing it? It does. It fits. She's his daughter. Because she stood still while he grew and then overtook her. He didn't need a daughter, though, did he. He needed a Mum. It's not fair, is it. Or it is, but doesn't feel like it in the slightest at the time? (Again, I could just waffle on and on if I let me.) So, no. She won't learn. He'll just realise that fact, go through the painful process of accepting it, then shuffle away (either mentally or actually as well). It's in the script. ******* TC and the IT person? Which one's the IT person again? Not Mr Doesn't Wash Up?? (No - surely!) Is she bonkers or what? ('What' being, desperate for a rhymes-with-rag?) If the guy was all along interested in her, romantically-sexually, then - consider his flirting technique: he's been basically pulling her pigtails and throwing dirt and pebbles at her! So what age does that make him???? And she wants to have a grown-up relationship with him???? Oh, wait. No she doesn't. I know what she's doing. She's luring the experimental (corrupted) guinnea-pig into her basement laboratory so that she can get a REALLY good handle on him and, thereby (yawn), her mother. But doing that would make her 'not so nice'. And, of course, she's not been reared to hold two seemingly opposite thoughts in her head, has she (where concerns the emotional, I mean). Ergo, she either has to perceive herself as (predominantly) all bad or all nice, meaning, admitting she's thinking of using him under the guise of romantic interest isn't an option. So she's kidding herself first, that she fancies and likes him, no, really, she does. (Not) Basically, I think, she's going in to get a closer look and get to learn how he/they tick. Bit foolish? She's very new to Cluster B-dom. She really thinks she'll be able to come out unscathed? Edit of previous info: You'd equally be surprised to know how many targets/victims initially intended (albeit unconsciously) only to lure a Narc into close quarters for a fairly extensive period, in order to study and dissect them before making some excuse to end the 'relationship'... Counter-Using, I call it. Getting a sense and - for said need-to-learn reasons - getting in there first. She shouldn't get in there at all. For any reason. She's either more brave AND intelligent/capable than we give her credit for or an over-confident fool (just because of her 'victory' with her mother - a conclusion that's a bit premature, actually, considering they're chewing-gum on your shoe and don't tend to give up that instantly or easily, remember?). So she's either going to get just bruised and sprained OR clawed to ribbons. OR it might be that the minute she comandeer-ed him, he, impressed, thought "Mama!"...and then thought "Ooh! Mama AND Girlfriend in one!"...and, sensing that, she thought "Guinea-pig/key to unlocking Mother Mystery!"...and then, "Guinea-pig AND Boyfriend in one!". I think you'll find even laboratory Guinea-pigs are generally treated a lot better than Narcissists' mothers, though, actually, in fact, oh sh*t, we know what's coming, don't we, children.... It doesn't work for the simple reason that a correctly working brain in that situation and circumstance experiences a release of Oxytocin, the bonding hormone, especially once having full penetrative sixpence becomes inevitable. Except for the Narc brain; his releases nuffink (useful). So she'll get increasingly attached, regardless of her 'mercenary' aims. But meanwhile, he won't. And in La-La Land, s/he who cares least, wins. She's going to be the victim/loser in SOME form, Lily. In which case, it'd be a lot easier just to use books and the net (or, even easier - pump *you* for knowledge). Good grief. Maybe grab her shoulders and shake her out of it while you still can, Lils?? Saying that - if you find you can't be bothered then I'm sure there'll be a valid reason behind it, e.g. you can sense she's nowhere near initiated or knowledgeable enough to know to stay away. There again, to be fair, it might be that someone deeper down you can tell he's merely a Reactive version with scope to snap out of it? Or even, she really IS that quick to learn and master, hence, you find the thought doesn't worry you enough to need to take any preventative measures with her? I'll trust your judgement on that score. Do keep me posted? ************ "My mum hasn’t been back to see Teach since I went home coz of the virus" Oh yes - of course! Well, well! Every cloud... :-) "When I talked to her about it she was a bit defensive but when I pointed out what he’s done, she gets it." Sure. But it's not rocket science, she knows it already. So it's truer to say she was willing to ignore the obvious. I'm telling you, it's purely down to her ovaries. She doesn't like him but she does still fancy him (enough) and believes she can 'take or leave him' as a casual but useful, sixpence partner. Tell her, 'Listen here, Lady! (;-)) Hey may WELL be (seem) great between the sheets (because he bloody has to be), but he's still riddled with a virus which is highly contagious. Is serious injury or infection worth some mere How's Yer Father?'. (Put it in your own words, obviously, LOL) OR you could remind her that he's probably sleeping with X number of other women at the same time (not precise same time, obvs), meaning she's vicariously sleeping with an awful lot of other women. (Nice!) Meaning, could catch something quite horrid in that department. Did she insist on an STD test? If not, she might want to have one now and commence using 'an accoutrement of ze Frensch variety'. That 'cold shower' might do the trick? Particularly as it's absolutely true? Put it this way: not every Narc cheats/sleeps around. But if they don't, all it means is, they've not (yet) been presented with the opportunity. Yet, looking back - didn't he behave not so long ago AS IF HE HAD BEEN??? Think about it. "Oops, gotta go, can't see ya/don't care, oh, wait, yes I can/do so I'm back again!". Oh really? How long for THIS time? So that's both the women in your life, then. Lils? I think you're gonna need a bigger First Aid Kit. *************** "I don’t thinks sis very happy at the moment and she’s still wobbling over dud. " :-( Understandable, though. She was his favourite/she was the one he was probably over-nice to (before he found he could no longer keep up his family man act, I mean). And little kids don't really stop to notice and think about how and why their siblings are treated differently; they just accept it because they were born into it and naturally, trustingly, presume it's normal in families to have favourites and non-favourites. Has she read any books on the topic yet? "She asks questions like should she contact dud and try to build a relationship with him?" What - like, she's the parent/grown-up and he's the child so she has to be the one to take responsibility accordingly, by sucking up her hurt in order be first to approach wickle babbie as if he's done not much wrong and/or doesn't know any better, etc.? Well, I'd say the answer to that is: only if you've accepted he was never your father but more your younger sibling and are okay with that horrid, very delayed/hidden truth? If that's the case then, yes, try the wary circling via baby-steps by all means. But saying that... If someone ever asks you, Should I try to have/continue/re-design a relationship with this person?, then, your answer should be this: 'If it were right and healthy and potentially productive to do so, you would not even feel a need to be asking me (or anyone) that sort of question. Because when it's right and healthy, that level of sensation and hesitation doesn't even feature. (Case closed!) Or (shorter version) - Having to ask, usually means No (and definitely means Not Yet). Anyway... Aetiology: GUILT. Unearth the source of her guilt so that dries and shrivels and requires being thrown in the bin. Or keep her busy and distracted to delay her for enough time that more detachment can occur and alter those scales. She might, however, have hit the point where she's realising she's detaching to a critical degree (point of no return) and has commenced grieving over the fact she's about to grieve him out for good. Can you sense which? "in the very beginning I thought about it too, briefly, then decided not to." I know. I was there (here), LOL. "Then dud sent us all letter this week" There it is! - that uncanny predator-level '6th sense' of theirs. Just when you're wobbling and vulnerable/susceptible - BAM! - in they walk! ('Doctor Dud'! Hahaha - nice one, Scopes!) "all about him and how wonderful he is because he ‘sometimes’ (probably not all ) works at the local hospital to him. " No. He'd be wonderful if he did that AND hadn't ever cheated on his wife and kids before abandoning them! (Or long before that point - never married a woman and started a family with her under completely false pretences that only he knew about.) " Oh and he hopes we will start contacting him soon and this virus should be a lesson to us, as to why we shouldn’t hold grudges, life is too short." No. Life is too short to risk destroying such a thing of value as a loving family and the potential of every other individual in it. (15-30...his serve :-p And for my next return, I'm going to smash his forearm.) What a load of self-serving, grossly hypocritical DRIVEL. No, luv. Where concerns one of your kind - life is too short to put up with you any more, whereby our finding ourselves holding grudges even factors! (I hope he's somehow reading this and it effing hurts/enrages!) PS: Narc Speak, given that their lies are almost always wrapped in a thin tissue of truth: 'Sometimes' means 'ONCE', i.e. a never-to-be-repeated (unless he needs the tool again, quick-sharpish) one-off. Some empath he tried to (faux) date managed to drag him there one evening. Or he dragged her to show off and falsely represent himself ("just like yooou, honest!"). What this bozo doesn't realise is this: a HEALTHY grown-up would MUCH more simply, easily, rapidly, sit his children down, explain what happened and how, and apologise profusely while begging understanding and, if not forgiveness, at least a chance to MAKE IT UP TO THEM and thereby prove his apology sincere! What they do NOT tend to do is, tell you how much nicer and more dedicated and dutiful they are toward bloody strangers than their own children and once-wife. No? Stupid bozo. Does he really think he's that clever and you lot that thick that you'd accept SHOWING-OFF in place of the healthier, warranted and, now, badly needed route? If he's still trying this nonsense and word salad-ing then clearly he believes you are all still under his spell. Or at least some or one of you. Or one-and-a-half if he's lucky? Well, I'm not. And he's nothing more than a ridiculous tw*t of a (by my calculations) TWELVE year-old who couldn't cease trying to manipulate if a How To manual were shoved up his hayhole and out through his eyes. "I asked sis how she felt about contacting him after he sent that and she’s changed her mind!" Oh well! Own Goal, then! Good! I'm glad she smelt the BS. Or was it that she was remembering the pretend dad as if he really had and must still exist before he then went and reminded her wholeheartedly of who and what he really is? Really, that (understandably) means that, rather than missing him, she's missing having a dad figure. Do you have any healthy uncles? What's happened to cousin? I'm presuming she has yet to meet Dishy? I imagine she'd have latched onto him by now if she had - right?

Soulmate ironically I'm riding my bike in the early evenings too. So much that I had to replace the front tires inner tube. Always get the thorn resistant thicker one. The gyms have opened back up now but only til 7pm due to the 8pm curfew. As if the Corona virus isn't bad enough now we have a curfew I'm sure you've heard. LILS hope your doing ok I'll be back

I'm back! LILS how are you? What's going on?

(What's going on? Who? What? Where? LOL) Hola Scopes, que tal? Soy bien y tengo una pequena ventana hoy. Yeah, Lils - "wh'app'nin, geezerette?!" ****************** Meanwhile, back at this ranch... "Soulmate ironically I'm riding my bike in the early evenings too. So much that I had to replace the front tires inner tube. Always get the thorn resistant thicker one." So what you're saying is, even thorns are bigger and better in America? [heh-heh] Alternatively - how's about watching where you're going instead of eyeing up all the (cough) wildlife? [heh-heh-heh] Get a moped or motorbike - go on...ya know ya want to - go on.... yeah....coool, Daddio! And start wearing a bandana.... (those aren't orders, though (LOL), just over-avid suggestions). My neighbour's started wearing a bandana. I told him it quite suits him, actually, and that he should keep it as his new look... albeit he now needed the Harley to go with it. But, basically, he tried to cut his own hair, ROFL! He did it so badly that all his (male) office colleagues were ripping the know-you-what out of him, literally all day, every day [interestink?], so...this was just a temporary solution until his hair grew back. I said, 'Well, it's up to you but it does suit you and, don't forget, one of the benefits of the lockdown is that everyone has had a sense of 'anything goes' freedom and opportunity to basically become a little less anal and a bit more hippy, so, if you do like it, keep it!'. I pointed out the evidence, as well, said, 'Put it this way, they've stopped laughing, meaning, they're not laughing at the bandana when, actually, they just as equally could. Case closed'. It made him think... Meanwhile, my neighbours a few doors away, now best friends, who come over every week or more for a coffee, lately have been ambling over, bold as brass, in their dressing-gowns and slippers. Or if it's hot - just their pyjamas and slippers. In broad daylight. :-D Bear in mind when you're picturing this, that his slippers 'are' cute, furry animals and hers are Shocking-Pink and severely fluffy (candyfloss, anyone?) and that they can be seen from the road. ...And their gowns aren't much saner. ROFL!!! - but why the hell not? A....nyhoo! Are you ENJOYING your retirement, despite (or to some extent, because of) the lockdown? PS: I had an out-of-body experience last night. I was beside myself! [wets own pants]

PS: 'Curfew' - ha-ha! ...."I AM NOT A NUMBER. I AM A FREE MAN!" (Name the 70s series!)

Here, what happens if you break curfew? Do all these giant bubbles start chasing after you? :-D

On another note, Scopesypoos... Come 'ere, you! And your mate Alanis. Siddown and pay attention to this liddle lesson: THIS IS NOT IRONY: "Soulmate ironically I'm riding my bike in the early evenings too" Neither are Ten Thousand spoons...when all you need is a knife (, Alanis). NOR meeting the man of your dreams...and then meeting his beautiful- sorry BEAUUUdIFUL wife. Nor is a traffic jam...when you're already late. Or a No Smoking sign on your cigarette break. Yours up there, Scopes, is a COINCIDENCE, i.e. 'Soulmate [comma] coincidentally [comma] I'm riding my bike in the early evenings [comma] too" Alanis's mis-examples...are just sickening frustrations known specifically (sorry, comma, known specifically) as Sod's Law. E.g., for a traffic jam to be ironic when one is already late, one would have to be the Town Planner who designed and/or passed the plans for that particular, clearly inadequate, road-section layout in the first place. See the differencio, you two? Good, glad we cleared that up. :-) But IN FUTURE - if neither of you can use English PROPERLY, only PLOPPILY, then - please get yer own. :-pppppppp Aww-wight? Cheers, geezer. (Bants) ;-)

....'an izznid ironic....doncha think?.....IT'S LIKE RAY-EE-YAAAAAAIN ON YER WEDDIN'..DAY, IT'S A FREE-EEE RIYYYYY-...EE-IYYY-IYYYYYYD WHEN YA'V AL-READY PAID....LA-LA LA-LA-LAAAAAAA..... She may have a crap grasp of English Meaning, but - bloody good album, actually. Whether Alanis was however-much aware of it or not at the time she wrote (puked-out) it, it's basically about being romantically or otherwise affected or downright victimised or worse, left pulversied, by Narc 'relationships' (romantic, parental, blah-blah).... Have you ever played it, Scopes? Here's the link if you fancy seeing what I mean? Put it this way, the album's called Jagged Little Pill and one of its tracks is called, 'I'm Not The Doctor'. Nuff said, eh. Kudos to her, though, because she broke a mould when she did that...having the balls to put in album form, basically this, replete with angry, but musical, seething and wailing: EFF YOU, YOU NARC BASSTDS and MY EX IN PARTICULAR WAS A NASTY, USING, TWO-FACED BEEP WHO ALL ALONG WAS JUST PRETENDING TO FANCY AND LOVE ME, BUT I REFUSE TO SIT HERE PLAYING *HIS* GAME BY PRETENDING IT "DIDN'T HURT, MEUGH".....IF EFFING DID! - LISTEN UP! Yeah, Alanis is 'bigger and better' in terms of her era, I'll give her that. (Check out the start of the (tuneful) primal wail at 2:24......genius musical arrangements like that one, throughout.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuzCwXB4AJQ Powerful stuff.

(Where are you, Lils? My window's starting to close, mehhh.)

Actually Soulmate it wasn't a thorn,it was due to overinflation and the bike paths are paved. LILS hows Dishy treating you?

You you oughta know

Hey, Sorry, i am still here just been really busy. I’ve ‘Bubbled‘ up older cousin in the week and look after his kids, so he and his wife can work, thankfully from home and I’m exhausted by the weekend. The little sods still wake up at 5 am and there is no auntie to get up with them, but it’s been fun. Yeah, dishy is still treating me very well thanks Scopes :-)

Lils, I'm so glad you said that - so am I! Oh BOY am I! And that's putting it nicely (for me). What does bubbled up mean? You mean you've moved in and are nannying for him? Paid or unpaid (just out of nosy interest)? Ah well, keeps you fit. (As does Dishy- WHAT?, NOTHING!...lol) *************** Scopes, Oh I see, you were just giving general bike tyre advice, not inferring a thorn was to blame. ("WHO'S on First Base? / No, Who's on Second...") And yes, I agreee - he oughta, and Alanis was gonna damn well make him, I'm sure. Not that it'd have done her any good - by all evidence of that inappropriately instant replacement, what did HE care! (Don't get me started lol) Still, she made a career out of him, whoever he was (or had pretended to be). ************** Lils again, "Yeah, dishy is still treating me very well thanks Scopes :-)" Come ooon, meanie - give us the juicy details. ;-) *************** And one for Richard (I don't even have time to phone or start a separate email, I'm that overloaded!), Heya mate, so sorry, I'm finally at the crucial, 2-3-month end stage (you know what I'm talking about). However, I see your call for greater posting assistance and will bust a gut to help out this weekend. (Y) (A) ***** PS: Scopes and Lils, could you guys likewise manage one one-off/sum-up response, each, in the next day or so, pretty-please?

Glad to hear 👂 dishy is treating you well LILS. Hey look i can actually use my own emojis! That's something new! 🙃

Hi, Yes, I have moved in with cousin and look after his kids in the week and the weekend and some Fridays are all mine. I was going to go home at the weekends, but it’s been nice getting to know cousin and his wife a bit more. Dishy has been to visit a few time’s too and cousin and wife like him and cousin can be a bit awkward around people so that’s a result. I am being paid too much hard work not to be. One thing I did do was buy the kids a clock that tell them when they can get out of bed. I remember you telling me about them last time aunty and I looked after them and I was not going to carry on getting up at 4.30-5 in the morning. Cousin and wife were very sceptical it would work, but they’ve been sleeping in till 8 and generally better behaved 🙏. This week is my week off coz cousin, wife and kids are going camping. They did ask if I wanted to go with them err noooo thank you! Instead dishy and I are going away, for the week, in uk, going to be in the middle of no where. That’s the juicy gossip at the mo were going on holiday together :-). Don’t think I said last time TC has gone a bit weird with me as in stopped talking to me. She was seeing It person (yes the one who didn’t wash up) but then seeing other guys too. So I did ask her what was she doing? Coz it wasnt nice, which she didn’t really answer or appreciate very much and just carried on doing what she was doing, all with the virus going on. It was the end of the Uni year so I didn’t have to live with it for too long. We are not house sharing next year, I’ve found some else to do that with (not Dishy). Ok , I will have a look at other posts.

Why not Dishy?

Thanks, Lily, for answering a load. Me, I failed pretty miserably, aside from a few reply reinforcements and one of the new ones (who obviously fell off his chair and hasn't got back up yet, lol). Time, is now, more than ever, something I do not have. *Sigh*, methinks I'm nearing the point where I have to take a posting haitus, I'm afraid. Hopefully it'll only be for 3 months tops, quite possibly less - I just can't say at present - and meanwhile, please keep posting your updates and chatting with Scopes, Lils, or just type a quick sentence to keep the thread live? ***** Meantime, back to your post: First holiday together... Ahhh.... :-) I'm *so* pleased you two are going from strength to strength. And Tick! to your being so mature and sensible when it comes to not moving-in (yet), but I'll let you go ahead and tell your, no doubt myriad reasons to Scopesie, yourself. 'At the mo'? You mean you're on hol as we speak? I'm guessing, The Lake District or Cornwall. Close? ***** Good ol' Bunny Clock does it again! :-) Whoever invented that must have been raking it in! (And I was just thinking - what great parenting experience you've been getting under your belt for When and Whichever (personal or career)! Speaking of which - I take it Doe Ray Me is still going strong? Is your mum still in charge?) PS: "Cousin and wife were very sceptical it would work," LOL, there goes two people who'd tried everything else under the sun and were close to despairing. You must be their No. 1 favourite person in the world now, Lils! No wonder they wanted you camping with them, LOL, greedy b*ggers. PPS: "Cousin and wife were very sceptical it would work, but they’ve been sleeping in till 8 and generally better behaved 🙏." PMSL - and the kids too, I presume? ***** Sounds like TC has finally caught up with where she is (i.e. no longer is - in a cage) and has gone post-liberation-crazy ("I wannit all....I wannit all.... I wannit all...AN' I WANNIT NOW!") (- name the famous, toothy singer!). It's quite common, now't to worry about, she'll settle back down soon. But appreciate that, as you can see even today, she's grown up smothered, cramped and restrained...year on year on year... She won't have been allowed to go to sleepovers, to parties, wear this, do that... That level of incarceration makes for a lot of leg-stretching and generally fast-tracking herself more to where she'd have been on her developmental path had she had the freedom to go through the more normal, healthy experiences, experiments and mistakes, befitting each age and stage. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if one of her main motivators for starting something with IT Guy had been the fact her mother hadn't taken to him - as in, "Take that, mother!") - would you? Because let's face it, she's certainly not behaving as if it were a relationship she was after, is she. In fact, could we say she's busy hurting his feelings and self-esteem? I don't like that any more than you do (lowering oneself to their level), particularly if she doesn't start to come out of it over the coming year. It's one thing to try ON an a-hole suit (to help you understand first-hand) but - not to keep it. Again, this is one of those Time Will Tell cases. Because the sad fact (that too many overlook) about victims of Narcs is this: Just because you've been victimised doesn't automatically prove you as a Nice Person/Empath. Little bullies can be victimised by big bullies as much as innocent empaths. But empaths wouldn't *dream* of putting someone else through the very pain they've suffered through. Certainly not if a friend pointed it out to them. Unless there's another, bigger urge in play stopping her from thinking like that? What you DO with your experience tends to prove which, predominantly, one was at the time. Let's continue to watch her space from a safe distance, though (- obviously she's turned you RIGHT off, whereby you no longer want to be so closely around her)... just out of interest and for closure? In the meantime, she's stopped talking to you because she knows you're right and why - albeit you'd only be meaningfully right if she *hadn't* been what she's been through and we could expect more developmentally-correct and -appropriate behaviours, note. However, her conscience doesn't know what I know thus clearly sides with you, hence is battling with her other overwhelming need to stretch out and bounce off the walls to get back to abovementioned intended life-journey schedule and shape. That's basically Cognitive Dissonance, Lils (two equal-strength yet 100% opposing thoughts)...not a nice sensation... and for she who's only recently escaped the compound with it's 24/7 CD? TRIGGER. You iz a not-nice trigger at the mo., I'm afraid. You cause mental pain and anguish with your purely technical but psychologically unaware correctness. That's why. Suggest you tell her you understand she needs a well-overdue Bad Girl blow out and Two Fingers Up to her stifled childhood for a while, but that it's too painful (and triggering for *you*) to have to witness her basically behaving like a prize (non-malignant) Narc so could you both just keep in touch from time-to-time by phone until she's been through that choice of process and caught up to where you're at? It's sad, isn't it, when you think you've met a long-term, kindred co-victim but then they suddenly veer off-path, whereby you're left feeling you have too little in-common. Sometimes you gravitate back together, sometimes you don't (and can conclude you were just plonked together to be Stepping Stones on this leg of your personal journeys). Because, she could, of course, be studying up instead, in order to understand their ways thus what was done to her and why, and then employ her imagination to do the rest of the (ugh) standing-in-the-monster's-shoes to feel how it feels and how it's possible to bring oneself/lower oneself, etc., etc. For starters it's a lot less expensive than partying and going off the rails, and in the process being an unthinking, insensitive, hurtful b*tch. But she's obviously not as mature and resourceful - basically, not as Old Soul as you, Lils. Clearly. Question: Has this helped make you appreciate your strength and intelligence that much more? In fact, let's be honest and tell it like it is: have you yet met *anyone* who dealt with everything as cleverly, smoothly- with such aplomb as you? Bet you haven't. :-) Keep climbing that staircase, Lils. You'll meet your particular 'birds of a feather' soon enough, no worries. (Y) (A) I mean, it certainly seems like you've met one of them, anyway - Dishy, right? I suggest you two try to starting hanging out with other, *older* couples. You might find them more on your levels. I mean, if I'm totally honest, I feel like I've been talking all this time to a (now) 35-year-old, I really do. Now you be honest: taking into account your recent journey, as well as having got to compare yourself and how you handled and handle yourself - and your family - even in the face of trauma and adversity - what age would *you* put yourself at?

How's things going LILS? 😷

What's up? Just checking 🍻🥂

Hey, Sorry yeah all good here thanks scopes, hope you’re ok?

Hi LILS I'm ok, however I'm experiencing Mercury retrograde

Here, Lils, you're obviously as mad-busy as me! Do say if you need a bit of a hiatus too? Meanwhile, Scopes, you're talking astrologically, right? Not that I don't appreciate astrology, but, in this particular instance - genuine curiosity - how, logically, and in what ways does what is essentially an optical illusion (Mercury only appearing to spin backwards when viewed from Earth) affect you and other people born with your star-sign?

Hi Yeah, might need a bit of a break, just got busy and feeling bit stressed about uni and virus going around, doesn’t feel that safe. Then there is talk of if it’s safe for students to go home for xmas :-/ Will try to answer some threads when I can.

Hi LILS Yep, the virus has had an impact on all. Soulmate my brother sometimes blames mercury retrograde whenever there are technical problems which I'm having.

Bear with, Lils! ***** PS: "Soulmate my brother sometimes blames mercury retrograde whenever there are technical problems which I'm having." :-D Your brother sometimes blames an human-optical illusion? Interestink. Sounds like he has a lot in common with Mercury's Retrograde, doesn't it. Both only SEEM to be backward. :-p What would happen if you spelled it out for l'il ol' Forrest there? PS: Are you stocking up on strips of newspaper yet - just in case?

PS Lils, You're probably processing. You do realise no-one expects you to answer other threads if you're not up to it and already have an overloaded in-tray? You can if it'd help make you feel better, but not if you're not in the mood? Anyway, I'll post properly just as soon as I can.

Hi, I finally got a day where I have some free time, uni has been pretty full on. I was a bit stressed at the beginning, I got two new housemates, both nice enough, but both have very different opinions on covid. One being very laid back, the other very up tight, which (still) leads to debates, sometimes causing tension and I was kind of stuck in the middle, trying not to get involved or give my opinion, coz there not a lot that can be done, apart from be sensible... which reminds me Scopes (a few posts back) waaaaaay too soon to move in with Dishy. He’s still a keeper though :-). I miss TC quite a bit :-( (note to self more then one good friend! ). It feels like I should be more angry with her coz she won’t talk to me at all, not not even phone or text. She’s gone off into her own little world like she was in the very beginning of uni. Ugh, Dud also made an appearance at home, I wasn’t there, but he was wanting to buy bro a car. Bros driving age till next year and knowing him he won’t learn straight away, but I’m guessing dud thought he’d get in there with his offer. Bro, unsurprisingly said no, which dud took offence to then said he’d get in contact with me and offer to buy me a car instead (no thanks). He hasn’t been in contact with me, I think that was to try and get a reaction from bro. Yeah, it helps to answer other people’s posts :-D

LILS probably way too soon for dud to buy buy bro a car 🚗 anyway. Getting sick and tired of this presidential election and wish it would end! Soulmate astronomy is not my field of expertise to say the least. I was using mercury retrograde as a little bit of humor with my mechanical problems. They do mention that its to blame for electrical malfunctions.

Yup, you're right Scopes. Bro doesn’t like being pushed into things, Dud did that a lot when he was younger and thats exactly what would happen with driving. Dud would make him feel guilty for buying him a car. it’s way for dud to get back in control of him and have contact with us again. But my mum and bro know this now, and he got told no, so all good :-) Oh yeah, do you like Trump Scopes Or the other guy? We’re back in lock down, I’m actually quite pleased, think it should of been done a little while ago but I think it’s because of Christmas 🎄. Me and one of my house mates, the one who was coming across really anxious about Covid, (I now know why) have said if it’s too bad we’ll stay put and have our own xmas together.

LILS i never liked Trump from the start, however i live in a red state. If he gets elected it won't be by my hand. They've had Trump rallys here and I get a bad vibe from them.

I know, Scopes, I was just teasing and playing dumb/literal. :-) Lils, my suggestion would be to let TC know via text that your door will remain open so that she'll feel free to look you up again, once she's out of her woods. She's way behind you on that enlightenment and recovery path, particularly as she's gone back a bit, and that's probably why you're incompatible at the mo. Once you finish grieving the friendship, the 'invisible little availability light above your head' will turn from Red to Green, whereupon someone who likewise has a vacancy will spot it and strike up a conversation. We don't 'make' friends, new friendship just naturally happens (when the light is a nice, healthy Green). I also agree bro's not ready for a car, and that dud's desperate to bring him 'round, using bribery. AGAIN, however, he's trying to avoid having that vital, sit-down, one-to-one, wherein he explains himself and his recent-past actions fully (even submits himself to a question-and-answer session), by throwing money at him, basically. (Someone should finally point that out to him.) Lastly, *everyone* is going to have an uncharacteristic Xmas this year, and a lot of people are going to be alone. But it's just one day, plus I imagine people will have a proper one as soon as the coast is clear again. ...And now, regrettably, guys, I have to start my posting haitus. I'll still be patrolling/reading - so keep up with the blogging, Lils, while Scopes continues being your Constant, but I can't say just yet, how soon I'll be able to recommence messaging. Could be sooner than I think, or later, but Richard knows my moby number in any emergency. Have a nice sort-of Christmas, if I'm not back before then. But I will be back - you know me, When, not If. :-) Bye for now! PS Scopes: "They've had Trump [rallies] here and I get a bad vibe from them." Oh yeah? Interesting! - please do tell?

Soulmate they had a trump rally down at a grocery store parking lot. There must have been at least 20 to 25 of those canam or Polaris all terrain vehicles with Trump flags lit up brightly with those leds red and blue. The only people leading this rally we're white men. I find this quitedisturbing "White supremacy"

LILS how's it going? Haven't heard from you for awhile.

Hey, Yeah all ok with me thanks scopes :-). Not really much to update on. I’m home now and we got a quiet Christmas, everyone in my family are sticking to our own homes.

Glad to hear from you LILS. Wondered what happened to all.

LILS, Soulmate have a Merry Christmas 🎅 🎄

Thank you Scopes, hope you both have a good Christmas too ...as good as it can be!

I'll just get a word in here sideways & wish all you people a very Merry Christmas & a safe & hopefully, a virus free New Year, if that's possible. Cheers from Down Under where there's bugger all snow but rather stinking hot & raining.

MANALONE good to see you here! Yes speaking of rain we could use a lot. HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year Manalone :-) even though that will be quiet too!

I’m feeling frustrated. I’ve given this situation about a week to see what happens, just observing, hoping it will fizzle out, but it looks like this is going to carry on. Dud has managed to worm his way back in. I’m guessing him and my mum have been talking since he last showed up at the house, wanting to buy bro a car. Everyday, since the day before Xmas eve, dud has Skyped. He managed to convince my mum, that this was a good idea, so he could ‘ reconnect’ with us. The first time he called, she didn’t tell us until five minutes before. Bet that was his idea. I refuse to talk to dud, I’ve hung around in the background just to see what he says, and so far it’s all been about him. he’s also dished out some hidden insults and put downs. Sis is really excited to talk to him, every day she’s ready and waiting for his call, and my mum is happy that’s she’s happy. Bro is very skeptical, he’s said he only sits in on theses calls for mum and sis. But he talks and gives dud too much information! My mum has been encouraging me to join in, or have a one to one with dud but just hearing his voice annoys me. Then yesterday, she got annoyed with me and told me I was being unfair and upsetting sis (sis has not said anything to me) because every time the call ends I (her words amused me) “go off on one” . I don’t. I just say what I hear and what I’m hearing is a load of cr*p from dud, and I try to point out what he is doing calmly. So I’m feeling distant from my family today...apart from bro.

Lils what's the latest? Have things changed?

Nope, nothings changed. My mum and sis are still Skyping dud daily, bro is listening in too but he’s being protective. He’s told me he doesn’t think dud is genuine. Dud has said some things that has offended him. I’m not listening in anymore, because it was really infuriating me.I go out, and there is now tension between me, mum and sis. I feel like my mum mainly is not being protective like she should be and it feel like she’s being disloyal +0(

So bro is having a change of heart then. Wonder why mum is changing her way of thinking. Could it be that dud is brain washing her?

Yeah,Scopes, you’re right, she is being brainwashed. My mum and dud text too 🤦‍♀️, all because he sent her a text on her birthday. I wouldn’t go snooping on her phone but would be interesting to see what they are saying to each other. I’ve tried to talk nicely to my mum and sis, then more firmly but I get told I’m being very negative and he’s my dad. Yea and...? I admit I got angry when dud insulted bro’s intelligence. bro wants to go to med school and dud basically told him he’s not bright enough and to think of a different career, (says him who has the worst bedside manner ever, and has no sympathy). What happen to my mum and sis not sticking up for bro, when he’s sitting there for them out of protection and will speak up for them if dud insulted them?! I’m hoping when schools go back and things slowly get back to normal there won’t be time for daily chats. Sorry bit of a rant 😬, I’m finding this frustrating.

It certainly isn't fair for dud to criticize bro like that 😕. I hope bro isn't discouraged by his criticisms. Mum should be a bit more impartial in this situation.

Lils haven't heard from Soulmate

Hi Scopes, Soulmate is busy, but don’t know how long for 🤷🏼‍♀️ The calls are still on going. Only update is Dud insulted bro again, by saying a similar thing as last time, and bro didn’t stay quiet! It doesn’t put bro off (I checked) it makes him more determined to prove him wrong. Bro is now hanging around in the background, just can’t be seen.

so sorry to here that.

Caroline pleased to meet you. Lils bro is doing the smart thing be keeping a low profile. How is sis taking all this?

Sis is still talking to dud everyday, my mum isn’t always there with her. Bro still keeping low profile but sis is telling him she’s doesn’t want him there if he’s not go to talk. Now, this is weird...dud sent sis a Valentine’s Day card and some flowers and chocolates... I know some parents give their kids gifts on Valentine’s day, but dud has never done this before. Of course it was to her only. She was completely swept away by it, normally she would she would share, or not want it ...not this time. (I thought they were for me from Dishy, not seen him since December 😭, but he was a lot more thoughtful 💕). I’m worried when lock down is over, she’s going to want to see him, and then it will become two sided. It feels like it is already.

Lils haven't heard from you for a spell what up?

Hey Lils! Hey Scopes! Hey Manalone! Hey Richard! Hey Susie!...and everyone. I'm sort-of back, but I don´t have great internet yet nor much data (I moved abroad, that was the big secret, have only recetly moved in to my new abode, still sorting myself), hence have been trying for over an hour to get into the site to begin with! Fingers crossed this posts okay... Lils, don´t panic. You let it slip, yourself, what´s actually going on here: "I hoping when schools go back and things slowly get back to normal there won’t be time for daily chats. " It´s lockdown, right? People feel incredibly worried and insecure (which can mimic Loneliness) but lack any real outlets and distractions for reducing it. Bored as UCK! He´s probably just FREE ENTERTAINMENT.....something to do. And he´ll FEEL (for a wee while) like a handrail to hold onto. That´s all. That´s why they´re getting annoyed with you both. THEY KNOW IT. They just don´t want to be pushed into that corner whereat they are forced to admit to you that THEY´RE USING HIM. Nice people don´t use, do they. Er, yeah they do...when they´re desperate. And who´s not desperate lately! In the meantime, do NOT react, either of you or you´re playing into his Outcome B hands. Plus you´ll only go and pour cement onto their (er) ´Templationship´ by . He WANTS this Triangulation situation. Because ´United they stand but divided they fall'. Plus, if you react, he´ll read it as you and bro still being attached enough to him to be manipulated into anger. Plus it´ll make him think he has all the power again. IOW, it´ll only encourage him. Say nothing, and let them get reacquainted with what an ultimately unmanageable d*ck he is and that any relationship with him is accordingly a barren and futile one.....'YAWN!'. If you MUST say something, just make the appropriate noises but as if you find it amusing for its unbelieveable ridiculousness. A piss-taking Pff or amused snort. Best to keep buttoned, though, that's my advice. OR the two of you could come up with something family to do, to fill the gap that they´re okay about his getting to (er) fill? Once one's had a long enough break from them, second time round it doesn´t take long to find them boring and ridiculous and basically re-see the very warts that over-repulsed thus repelled you back when. Narcs can´t keep it up. It´s like they´ve got a connection diversion in their brains, which triggers into action after 'too much' peace or agreeable-ness. You´ll see! :-) Meanwhile, how are you guys coping? How fed-up are you out of 10 now? I´m about 6 but it fluctuates to 9, depending on how well each day goes. But - 'trying to get the staff' has been proving very challenging to say the least. Up and down like a yo-yo, I am. As are all my friends. It´s just unreal, isn´t it?

Oh good, it worked! PS: plus I´m using a laptop. Ugh. The keyboards do not suit me, Sam-I-Am! Slow isn´t the word for it. PPS: not 9 - sorry! I meant the other way - 2. LOL

PPPPS: I reckon you and bro are outwardly reacting because you and he are bored and frustrated, too, if you want my honest suspicion? I mean - getting riled up is somewhat diverting, is it not? And empties the frustration bucket a little, into the bargain? You´re all only human and these are bizarre times. We are all reacting normally-abnormally to an abnormal, frankly downright circumstantially-abusive situation. But... I have always maintained that, to unite the world - sorry, GOOD people of the world would take an actual alien invasion - AND HERE IT IS! We just have to keeeep swimming, keeep swimming and we´ll be okay - OR BETTER - once we come out of this here wash. But EVERY situation has up as well as down, even terrible sides. That´s just a life fact. Same amoount of sh*t, different colur and smell. You have to focus on those and try to use and develop them to your present or near-future advantage, if you can. This is a test, people.

Our specie doesn´t improve on any individual or societal level in peacetime. It´s only when we´re put through the mill. Here - Knock-Knock joke for yas! Knock-Knock!?

Who's there?

BTW where abroad are yee? Stateside?

Hey, ooh, cool moved aboard. Is the COVID any better where you are? Sibs have gone back to school but sis still calls dud as soon as she’s home. Dud suggested to sis that they could start meeting in the garden at weekends when the restrictions are lifted (think from Monday) . I’m not comfortable with this, neither is bro but we get over ruled, because my mum thinks it’s ok and sis wants to see him. The phone calls are bad enough, soon I’ll just have to look out a window and see him, ugh 🤦‍♀️. He’ll be invited over for Xmas next! lockdown has been good in that it’s kept him away. Yes, I agree, I think my and bro’s reaction towards dud are because of boredom. I have been staying quiet, and bro does most of the time. I did think that I could get auntie round, that would make it very awkward for dud wouldn’t it ? (6) she does know what’s going on but she got engaged in the new year, to a nice man, even my cousins approve. So she’s quite occupied with him! I’m soooo bored, some days I’m a 5 other days I’m a 9 close to 10. Uni work, lots of reading and Skyping ppl are just about keeping me going but it feels like thing are slowly going to start getting better 🤞🏻

Ugh, yesterday was eventful...bit of an update! Dud came round and met sis in the garden...a day early before we are allowed to start meeting outside, but this is dud, the rules obviously don’t apply to him! My mum, bro and I didn’t know he was coming. He and sis had arranged it between themselves. I did notice that sis was very happy and a bit smug in the morning, did make me wonder why and if dud was involved somehow... I wasn’t too happy when I spotted them both in the garden, not social distancing! I was Skyping Dishy at the time, in the middle of a fairly important conversation, so I decided to stay put. I really didn’t want to see dud in person. A bit later, bro started shouting. He was sounding quite distressed so I went downstairs, he and dud were arguing in the kitchen. Bro was trying to get him outside. My mum was trying to calm them both down and sis was crying because she realised this wasn’t going to end well. Dud had come into the house, apparently to use the toilet but bro said he was snooping around. Dud denied this and came out with all sorts of excuses like he’s fully vaccinated, so he’s safe to come in. Er, no, you’re not! He came to see sis because he can’t come next weekend because he’s working. Then he tried to get us all to ‘sit down and talk as a family’ (...what?). Bro and I refused, so he told us we were both heartless and completely oblivious to sis’s feelings. Uh huh. He good narc rant, I choose not to respond to him. My mum did actually tell him to leave. when he did finally go, bro and sis started arguing, I left my mum to deal them. I feel sorry for bro because he was so angry, it looked like he was about to explode. Today he came home early from school because he said he felt unwell and didn’t sleep... talking to him, it sounds more stress than illness. Understandably he really doesn’t want dud in our garden, it’s too close for him. I feel the same too, but I’m better at distracting myself. Trying to understand why sis felt like she needed to be sneaky about this, no one has said she couldn’t meet or talk to dud. He probably told her not to say anything. She isn’t speaking to anyone at the moment... Now my mum thinks we need some sort of mediation or family counselling. I told her it feels too late for that. I still don’t want anything to do with dud and he’s show again he can’t be trusted. Ugh, god. I feel stressed too. I can not wait to go away in ...ooh I think it’s only 2 weeks away, just hoping Doris change the rules! Good to get it out though :-)

Lils I would think dud would know better being a doctor to follow the protocols. Even though the vaccines are becoming more available all still need to keep social distancing.

And wearing of masks 😷

I know, you would think he’d know better wouldn’t you? It’s really frustrating too when sibs and my mum have been doing Covid checks.I’ve stayed in and not mixed with anyone and dud just wanders in the house to be nosey!

Scopes, "Who's there?" Europe

As you can probably tell from the above post, Lils, I´m pretty bored as well, LOL. Everyone is. Busy but bored...because what they´re predominantly busy with is drudgery, hence desperate for anything resembling fun or diversion... to the point where, allegedly, people are starting to treat trips to the supermarket like a family outing! (Wonders: are they the same bunch that ´feel like chicken tonight, like chicken tonight'? LOL) *********** I´ll give you a clue: I´m typing on a Spanish keyboard. 8=) (A) I saw my chance in November (the lockdown lift + decent offer on the house) and took it! Brexit has caused certain UK ex-pat groups a lot of red tape problems and practical obstacles, though (I expect you´ve heard?) As for me, I must admit I didn´t ever envisage my dreamlife beginning amid a national lockdown (PS: similar to UK, to answer your question...pretty much parallel, actually, bar planning to welcome back UK holidaymakers whilst Boris keeps them at home (for reasons no doubt to do with family holiday expenditure)). It´s still wonderful to finally be here, though....even though there´s a form for everything - and no exaggeration! Anyhoo, as it´s already very late and I´ve got to be up early (ugh), I´ll respond to the rest of your posts tomorrow. Hasta manana!

Hey-hey! "I’m not comfortable with this, neither is bro but we get over ruled, because my mum thinks it’s ok and sis wants to see him. The phone calls are bad enough, soon I’ll just have to look out a window and see him, ugh 🤦‍♀️. He’ll be invited over for Xmas next! lockdown has been good in that it’s kept him away. " Yes, but let´s keep the two issues - (1) sis getting closer to the 'contagion' again and (2) yours and bro´s distaste of the situation - separate: 1. Sis is younger, her frontal cortex - that bit that´s NEEDED TO PASS SENSIBLE (and particularly self-sensible) JUDGEMENT on things - isn´t nearly as developed as yours, ergo, put simply, purely as a bog standard fact of human development, she´s less intelligent both emotionally and intellectually than you two. And needier of a dad, still. She has to fill in her gap with repeat EXPERIENCE...trying, trying, trying again to make a relationship with her father work as it should. Let her. This is what will teach her to appreciate WHY you two won´t go near him with a bargepole. Let her learn by you two elders dealing with your own emotional and intellectual reactions (albeit that they´re being provoked and exacerbated as his side agenda, his BOGOF (they´re overly energy efficient i.e. lazy, remember?)... 2. Lils, I get it. I´m so lifelong obsessed with this topic I´ve chosen to STAY (a bit) in romantic relationships with small-medium-large scale Narcs just for the amazing opportunity, once I´ve realised One Hundred (- to all intents and purposes) Percent what they are. I should add - only wherever immediate excision was circumstantially/practicably or otherwise obstructed/delayed. I´d get out my white coat and clipboard and start really paying attention (and experimenting). Should also add that I very nearly ´tamed´ the last one (I'm a textbook case of Narc's Nightmare) but BY GOD, AN ACTUAL SAINT WITH PATIENCE TO MATCH, I AIN´T! Soon as it got too much where I couldn´t keep (rightful) control plus all the vital elements needed for escape serendipitously collided, finally - EXPULSION - GREY ROCK OR ZERO CONTACT, NO MATTER WHAT THE ATTEMPTED PROVOCATION (I do have a lot more than the avg patience but Narcs go beyond anyone's, inevitably-eventually)....If you don´t give ANY response or reaction to attempted manipulation to rouse one (Grey=boring, Rock=unresponsive), ...eventually even the worst Narc stalker will give up (it´s just that their "cease action, action proving futile' programme trigger has a dicky power supply). So I GET how being forced by another´s actions - ones you cannot extricate yourself from - to be expected to sit and have tea and polite conversation - or even have to have them on your otherwise safe territory - with one´s EMOTIONAL RAPIST - is nothing short of atrocious, outrageous, repugnant, stress-to-trauma-making, justice-insulting, YOU-insulting, etc., etc., and renders you feeling defensless and powerless, but - trust me, you are not. You can't (yet) get him out so - take away the other 50% element to success: your two's presence. Whether you both stay upstairs together or go the park together - vote with your feet and save yourselves a lot of your precious energy and strength. He'll soon enough start to really get on one of their nerves all over again. In fact, the more quickly cocky you allow him to get, the better - for what and how much he feels safe enough to let 'all hang out' again. Now then, the situation would be different if your mum and sister were thinking of giving him anything precious to hold or get involved in. If not, if it´s just spare time (and possibly working out the last of some bruised ego issues), then - that´ll be the only cost associated with having inadvertently (or directly-deliberately/subconsciousy for all we know?) signed up for a refresher course of His Total Arsehole-ness (in terms both of Noun and Verb). I mean, let´s not forget that this is the guy that goes: Yyyooou can have a birthday present BUT YOOOOU CAAAN'T - because you're not sucking-up to me, MLEUGH! To (no offence) a bunch of perfectly nice kids. HIS OWN kids. But kids/relative youngsters. And adults don´t do that, only other (mean, spoiled) kids do. You think your mum and sister are going to suddenly find protracted contact and interaction enjoyable second time round? Oh, and let's not forget how IF YOU TAKE THE NARC BACK, they wait until it feels safe again to start battering THE REST of that confidence as previously enabled you to GET AWAY FROM THEM/THEIR INFLUENCE, out of youo. They treat you worse than ever - which is, so that you never again have the energy to get rid. OR SO THE NARC THINKS/HOPES. But Auntie probably wouldn´t have an effect even if she weren't so embroiled (congrats) because, as I say, your mum (and sis, somewhere in her mind) do know he´s an A-hole and a long-term to permanent one. They do. They´ve had ample time for the past umbilicus to shrivel and drop off. So maybe THAT'S what this is - them putting their new-found immunity to the acid test, purely while the circumstance makes said experiment relatively (compared to frustrating boredom) palatable? If it were me, I´d say to my mum - 'Right...Clearly we two have no choice in having to have someone we are justified in disliking intensely, regularly enter the family homestead, but we reserve our basic right to have nothing to do with him and 'not be here'. Next visit, please inform him we two are out somewhere or upstairs involved in some important school project of bro's. Would you please at least do that for us from now on?' ....with you guys out of the way, it will all, I repeat, go PLEUGH or BANG that much quicker (yours and bros protests are a distraction-delayer, see?). However, I also repeat that you don´t know that mum and sis won´t turn around once things ACTUALLY get more back to normal and say, 'Well, the Lockdown chats and visits have been pleasant but - we´re back to busy-busy-busy-busy again, sorry, it´ll have to maybe be the week after or so - leave it with me.'....Based on some timely excuse that he no doubt will blinkeredly offer them on a plate? No-one sane and healthy with the power to leave/ban can stay in a 'relationship' with a Malignant Narc, when they don´t have to or have nothing important to gain by it. If it makes you and bro feel less hapless, you could always keep a record of his visits and their duration, etc., so spot any pattern of the novelty starting to wear off and whether independent of or in response to his ongoing, overall behaviour in the meantime? Personally, I think it´s a great opportunity for you and bro to go out and do something (unisex) together... find a woods clearing and make a 'secret' camp, start learning to roller-skate or skateboard, start a craft or model-making project... I don´t know, that´s yours and his call. But that´s in an ideal world where strong emotional urges don´t exist, so - maybe start the secret log-keeping and wait til you get bored with it and then decide what or whether to do instead. What I´m saying is - you and "your colleague" have a live one. You can sit in the corner, seething, the pair of you, or make Lemonade out of those Lemons and increase your knowledge aka power aka present and future immunity. That way, his agenda misfires. Or if you need to - a bit of both. Because, really, I´d have to be a bit stupid not to consider that you and bro also have latent anger in you in those hard-to-get-to recesses so - a bit of seething/steam release time might actually do you good when combined with a lessened sense of helplessness and victimhood by analysing the goings-on like research psychs? I don´t know because I´m not there with you nor privvy to an awful lot of indescribible nuances. Whatever appeals to you out of the above will no doubt be a canny and productive decision or cocktail of decisions on your part. Which way to handle/conquer it appeals? You don´t have to do it but, just out of interest? ************* Scopesie, "Lils I would think dud would know better being a doctor to follow the protocols. Even though the vaccines are becoming more available all still need to keep social distancing." Course he knows better. They do KNOW right from wrong. They just DON´T CARE whether something is or not. Only sane, decent people care hence follow sensible, specie-protecting and -preserving rules. They´re stunted babies, all they care about is I WANNIT AN I WANNNIT NOW AND IF I CAN´T HAVE IT I´M GONNA SMASH BOUNDARIES AND COMMON DECENCY - INCLUDING TABOOS AND SACRILEGES - EVEN FACES! - AN THEN I *WILL* GET IT...AN THEN I´LL THINK OF SOMETHING SO I´LL GET AWAY WITH IT. Stunted toddlers are as Stunted Toddlers characteristically do. So, ultimately - NO, they DON´T know any better. Because knowing better takes functional objective intelligence PLUS functional FINER (or any) FEELINGS as temper ego. Together, working in harmony. It´s called the Superego. They either never had the disc space to have those downloaded (layered-on by repetion of example) or no-one gave a sh*t enough to repeatedly download them (instead, possibly their opposites). A straight NPD might - as their whole life is spent polishing their public facades! (They´re so vain they even care if their victim still rates them!) But not a NPD Sociopath. Mind you, we don't know whether he does wear his mask everywhere else, do we (pun intended). He doesn´t SEEM to treat their territory as Outdoors/In Public, does he, more as if he´s behind closed doors with them. So he probably is following protocol out-of-doors (in front of people whose opinions of him matter), I mean. Don´t know. What do you think, Lils? Do you feel he sees you all as Them Indoors or Them Outdoors?

Here, Scopester, what happened to our game of Knock-Knock? Come on, mate - play the game? IT'S FUNN-AY! (Spoilsport)

Ok, who's there?

Thank-you kindly, Sir, for indulging my comedy-sluttery (lol): EUROPE!

Lils, Got a bit of time today (I know!!). So I just wanted to provide a plausible, logical explanation for mum´s behaviour: If you stand right back and look only at what she is doing and what is happening - it could be this...see if it fits: ****************** (I´m Mum, thinking to myself) : 'Littlest Daughter can whinge and nag for England - or, to be fair, it certainly FEELS that way to me! Because, after all the contention and drama he´s put me through - and NOT just in recent years, but the entire marriage (bar the 2-year, Artificial Honeymoon)! - PLUS the decades-long neglect all the way to emotional starvation, which has only recently hit me properly, I am still! so! KNACKERED! So her pleas are proving Too Much. Particularly as, whenever she´s like that, she start triggering me by reminding me of all the times "he/It" would go on and on at me... At the same time, though - NO WAY do I want to let him be alone with her back at his or just anywhere, getting to brainwash her on a regular basis! Plus, I can´t legally deny him custody of his own daughter or I´ll have his solicitor on my back and I´m fed up with hassle from bloody anyone, I NEED A REST!... What to do, what to do... I know! I´ll come across all friendly, like all's forgiven, bygones are bygones blah-blah, or like I might even be susceptible to wanting him back, so he´ll likely say yes to his coming HERE!...WHERE I CAN CONSTANTLY KEEP AN EYE ON EVERYTHING! - and step in (seemingly diplomatically) wherever necessary!' ******************* Maybe that´s why Mum's not as critical and/or seems to want to defend him - because her agenda necessitates trying to keep him sweet by feeling welcome and like he´s getting his way) and plus his antagonisms so far she's largely considered ´small stuff´ that lacks consequence (or so she hopes)? And maybe that´s her own reason for getting angry with you and bro when you ´pick constant holes´? Because you're thwarting her plans (of which she feels ashamed and embarrassed - for lowering herself to his level - but, sod-that,-this-is-my-baby-we're-talking-about!)? Maybe this is her, making Lemonade out of Lemons? Is there a "PING!"? Why don´t you ask her? Like this, maybe - pensively and like you anticipte amused awe and delight... "Hmmm......I dunno -.....cos,... being realistic,... I MMMMIGHT be over-estimating your intelligence a little here (- note harmless-yet-productive ego-carrot, lol) but............ Is the reason why you´re encouraging *or* just letting Dud take his custody HERE so that, basically, you´re always there to monitor and supervise so's to jump in and shield her from any of his usual slime-spraying attempts?.... Did you engineer it that way?......IS my Mum capable of being that clever and devious, that she managed to counter-manipulated a giant Narc, totally under his radar!?" Make it feel suddenly okay to admit. If she says yes - ask her if it was consciously devised (or just struck her as the obvious thing to do) or whether you´ve only just made her realise by pointing it out and putting a label to it. (You´d be able to tell if she was fibbing...not that I'd expect her to.) But whether she gets kudos for it, does all depend on whether (a) regular custody has been court ordered/shoved onto her or (b) pressure comes merely and solely from Sis (and Dud, of course) and she's just out enough puff to deal with it. IOW is she making the best out of seeming helplessness or just incapable of dealing with it because it would mean re-activating her solicitor and getting a revised order based on his parental insanity (or a bit of both reasons combined)? And also, (c) whether she goes as far as flirting with him or getting all giggly and girlie - GENUINELY, I mean? (Ugh, please say not!) Here - another possibility in terms of motivations from the other seeming 'dissenter' - just in case: has sis broken up with her boyfriend recently or been unable to see him during lockdown?

EUROPE WHO?

Hey, Well, I like analysing, usually, but with dud, I find it hard not to get anxious or angry. I think bro and I will do both, depending how we are both feeling coz there is pent up anger, we have sat together seething and bitching about dud. But we do need to start combining it with some observing and doing other stuff. I’ve been away from home for a couple of weeks and the first week it was still school hols, so bro had to get used with dud coming round to see sis daily, on his own. I was worried about him but we talked about what he would do if dud tried to talk to him or if he felt he was unable to control anger and he knew he could call me if he wanted to. He did well, he didn’t call, and he said he met up with a friend outside a couple of times and went to aunties and talked “wedding stuff” as he put...can tell he was really interested! Anyhoo it was a good test to see how he did I think, coz usually I wouldn’t be home, I would be at uni and I’ve decided I want to do more studying, soo it’s something he needs to be able to manage. dud has left me a card and present...I dunno what reason ...ugh, haven’t opened it yet. Dud will follow rules outside but only when it’s important to him, or he gets something out of it, like work. He gets paid a lot of money to do minor ops, dermatology removing moles or whatever. So he would have to put on a good bedside manner (bet that’s hard for him for him to do every day) and he would want to impress other consultants. He’s probably very charming! But with other things like going through security at airports, he hates being told what to do and he’d try to be intimating, ugh, it was embarrassing. Oooo I think that explanation fits really well with my mum! I have been feeling negative towards her (and sis) thinking she’s been too laid back about this, why isn’t she organising theses meeting in the garden with dud and sis? So she knows what’s going on and here are no nasty surprises for me and bro? She wasn’t annoyed with sis for being sneaky and organising dud to come round in secret the first time round. When I thought she should be. And that It’s not fair on bro to expose him to dud like this by having him in the garden when he feels the way he does. Really it felt like she only cared about what sis wanted and her feelings. My inner child was going “it’s not fair sis always gets what she wants cos she the youngest!”. But what you put makes sense and I think she is just exhausted. she has said to me if sis wants to meet him fine, but she would never leave sis with him or drop her off somewhere where they would have alone time together. so I can now see why she’s going to be nice to dud any why she got with with me and bro. I dunno if she knows what she’s doing, hmm I will casually ask her in the way you put it and see what she says. So thanks for that :-).

You would think dud being a practicing physician would take more responsibility in family relations as being a father of his children,even in a divorced situation. Oh well enough of my rant

Lils has dud had the vaccine yet? Just curious 🤔

Hey scopes well apparently he’s had two jabs. Who knows if that’s the truth or not. He’s talking about coming in the house . I’m back at uni now (woohoo) so I don’t have to see him. It was more bro I was worried about but my mum seem to have things under control! My mum knows exactly what she’s doing btw :-) when I casually asked her. She was a bit embarrassed at first but then started said she couldn’t be bothered to fight with dud so she decided to relax, play him at his own game a bit but subtle way so that he would guess. That way she could keep an eye on sis. I didn’t think she was that crafty! But then I remembered she stayed friends with leech face for longer then she needed to as well. They’re not friends anymore thank god. Ugh dud unfortunately met Dishy, the other weekend, been trying to put that off for as long as possible. Dud wasn’t able to come round to see sis, but then he changed his mind and was able to. he was meant to stick to the front garden with sis me and dishy in the back. If I was feeling up to it dishy and I would of gone out. of course curiosity got the better of dud and he came wandering round to introduce himself. He came across as weird, and he bought up Tom, probably to see if he could stir up anything. Sis ( she keeps telling him things about me and bro, he now knows what uni I go to now) had also told him I’ve been a bit ill, ( bit on going) so he tried to show his concerned, caring side and gave me medical advice. He didn’t get any info from me, which p*ssed him off and he stomped back round the house to back sis.

Just bumping this up!

IT'S BLOODY HOT! 118 DEGREES!

Scopes, hope you got air con? 🥵 And I thought it was hot here.

Yep, just saying a prayer 🙏 And hope it holds up. Party's over, it's payback time

Lils other than the excessive heat warning ⚠️ How's things going with mum and the sibs?

Lils are you and Dishy staying in touch? Bloody hot 🔥 100 degrees at nine o'clock at night!

Hey Scopes, Ooo I don’t envy you with the heat! Things at home are ok with my mum and sibs dud still going round to see sis. Bro not changed his mind in having a relationship with him. I’m pleased I’m not home and bk at uni, feel less anxious coz as you know I didn’t enjoy seeing dud. Yeah still seeing dishy :-) we are just deciding what to do now. Living/working-wise.

Scopester, "EUROPE WHO?" "Noo - YOU ARE!" :-D (Narc Projection joke)

Lils, sorry for the delay, I´ve got building work going on and it´s slow-going with the incredible heat already, meaning, you don´t get many man-hours per day, slow-going ain't the word for it. Let me catch up...

PS Lils: did that joke tickle you? Re your mum's admission: Haha, you didn´t think she could be that devious? Well, how else did you think she coped with him throughout that marriage? Analogy time (reverse genders to suit): Woman with injured leg thus temporarily in a wheelchair meets pretend-enigmatic Nice Guy (Narc, whichever type) in a wheelchair, who alleges, verbally and/or behaviourally- SNAP, his injured leg is likewise going to recover to point of walking again! She rejoices over the thought that they´re going to recover and improve together, simultaneously, ignorant over the fact that he's lying (and that anyone could even lie about something that big and serious), and is actually wheelchair-bound for-life, no cure. But as soon as she recovers enough to make that first attempt out of her chair to practise standing or walking - or, perhaps, just naturally demonstrates or radiates readying signals - Mr Not So Nice Guy starts to emerge. (Remember the psych industry saying: I HATE YOU/DON´T LEAVE ME!!!) He finds a way to either dissaude her or destroy her balance or actually yank her back down into her chair (in a way she can't pin for certain on him). (Given enough time, he'll even destroy her chair wheels so that she has even less independence than before and now "can't" leave him because she's been forced into the habit of over-relying on him - being led to believe it was safe to). Meanwhile he makes no serious attempts to help his own recovery (why would you if you knew or sensed recovery weren't an option?). It can't last. Drip-drips of contempt and contradictory clues evenetually become a bucketful...which overfloweths. At some point she'll bat him away or tip his chair over, before 'walking out the door - and SOD the lifelong rule that nice girls don't counter-strike´, not least poor wickle helpless bunnies! Because, she is normal thus recover-able, which includes being unable to keep the blinkers on (in her endeavour to protect the normality of her chilrens' lives) for more than (I've noticed) roughly 7 or 13 years (the latter being where the woman was especially hard-working and determined to make it work, usually for the sake of said kids). It´s usually circumstances, money first, that keep an awakened woman from escaping whenever she finds herself in the zone to. It´s not just psychological reasons to blame for the on-average 7 run-up attempts. Zone and Circs have to click together. Even then it can be as challenging to do as choosing to walk off a cliff. Basically, the fear and dread of staying has to become far greater than that of leaving....AND of the staircase one has to climb after the final lap (to where he and all idiots-on-wheels can't ever follow). During all of that time, considering she's stuck there in escape limbo, waiting for all elements to collide, she has to find a way to meanwhile survive and not go mad. Enter coping mechanisms...e.g. she learns tricks (including lying) based on her growing capability of anticipating his actions, e.g. tilting her weight and/or chair away from him so that when he tries to yank it over, all he does is right her chair for her and - up she gets. In summary, she HAS to fight down on his level because, well, it's not like he´s capable of ever getting out and up to hers, is it! So you have to learn how to fight and win, subtly or otherwise, from your wheelchair...become a wheelchair ninja...or a ninja wheelchair mechanic so you can secretly bit-by-bit dismantle his, under the table. It's part of Out-Narcing the Narc. But it takes bravery and 'getting over yourself' to for-once unleash and get down-and-dirty with your own inner scary animal (hence your mum's reaction was embarrassment rather than pride of her inner warrior) (- it´ll come). They're the parasite. They depend too much ON YOU. Even if they no longer or never did like you (beggars can't be choosers)....I hate you but don´t you dare leave me (my ego and self-esteem (and abity to provide for myself) are so fragile it could prove mentally fatal...and though I may not be able to force you to obey my commands, I can certainly make you wish each time that you had. Oh aye, being forced to leave the uggers painfully slowly takes mucho episodes of counter-manipulation and acting skill ("where there's a will there's a way), even playing dead before then scarpering when he looks away. In Normal Land, the female of the specie is more deadly than the male. In La-La Land, the healthy of the specie is more deadly than the Narc. ...once they can get over their need not to be 'rude' and 'not nice'. Back to your mum, who was prevented by her nature from just doing a sudden but planned runner: she has the advantage over him because she'll have paid close attention to his every move for all those years. He won't (hur hur hur), he wasn't ever interested enough. Anyway, he´s a Sociopath so, even when these loony tunes suspect or know you're lying to them, they still go ahead as if they believe you ("cuckoo!"). ************ Course bro can cope from here. You wouldn´t be letting him fly solo if he weren´t. Case closed :-) ************ Wedding!?!!??

"dud has left me a card and present...I dunno what reason ...ugh, haven’t opened it yet." If you like you can tell him why - because, coming on the over-long back of this incredible absence of rightful conversation and explanation with you about why he so obnoxiously trashed your family, ever since which, trying to get back their affections using solely the stick and unhealthy carrot, never the healthy, a gift cannot be felt as anything other than an insult. So if he wants you to open it he knows what to do, doesn't he. Or not. (He wants power? He´s got it...with fries up both nostrils.)

Ex Leech Face: That´s right - she did. LF was mum's practise dummy, remember? And anyway, we always start with the uppermost sheet in our in-trays, meaning, the original, true monster, automatically gets (finally) beaten-up and seen off last. It's sensible to limber up, innit.

PS how to have fun with a live-in Narc Sociopath...Counter-human-pinball...(set THEM up before knocking em down): "OH MY GOD, I'VE WON THE LOTTERY!!!!.........................................................................................................FIVE QUID, WHOOHOO, I'VE NEVER WON ANYTHING BEFORE!!!" Heh-heh-heh.

And another: secretly open the gift so you know what it is AND ISN´'T and, when he asks if you liked it - if it was, say, a clothing accessory or book, respond smiling and politely with, Yes, I did - thanks, it was delicious!, or, say, a box of chocolates, with, Yes, I did - thanks, it goes with my favourite top!

Scopes, 118 is 47.7778 Celcius. WOW, YOU´RE PRECISE! (haha) It's 40 here. I don´t mind that bit - it´s when it's coupled with high humidity!.....sweat, sweat, sweat - and annoyingly, mainly only out of my head and face!...which, coincidentally enough, is how an actual ice-lolly melts. (Hey, I didn't know I was that cool! All I´m missing is the stick up my bum.) I do have air-con but I don´t trust the claim that there're no chems or gases involved because in shopping centres and on planes, it makes my head feel sick for the rest of the day. What do you think - IS there anything iffy in it that could affect particularly sensitive types?

It's nearing 50 in Canada, apparently. They're not geared-up for temperatures like that. People (mainly the old and isolated high-rise dwellers) are dropping like flies and public buildings are letting people spend the day in their air-conditioning. I wonder if the deniers are still maintaining it has nothing to do with global warming? Yeah, probably just lots of people simultaniously having gone to work without turning off their ovens or closing the doors, yeah...

Soulmate glad your back! I don't call it global warming I call global F******! Too much population Here they say the cause is what's known as the heat island effect.

(Scuse the bits n pieces rather than one long one but this connection is very sssslowwwww...) "Well, I like analysing, usually, but with dud, I find it hard not to get anxious or angry." I know. That´s precisely why you two need to get into this habit of treating whatever he does and says as research goodies in terms of custom-building yourselves a 100% Dud-proof suit of armour - because it overly engages your logical hemisphere to the point where your emotional one doesn´t get a look in and nods off....and enough occasions that it starts to become a Pavlovian trigger. AND Knowledge Is Power. You´ll become capable of predicting his next moves. Even before him! Mucho handy, that one. He's not really human, anyway, he's a fleshy robot who even regularly mistreats HIMSELF! In fact, everything he DOES is in essence him hitting or chipping away at himself, just via the houses (you and what he gets back) so as to cause such a delayed self-consequence that he can even deny what he´s slow-doing to himself. It REALLY isn´t personal to you. Think about it - the first and foremost thing these brokens biological robot can't do is GET PERSONAL. Again, this out-Narcing is your next-best choice if you can neither cut the bugger out of your life nor even lay down boundaries like you can your milder types. But mesuspecteth that thou simply feels bad for 'abandoning camp' because you're that bit too over-consciencious, still (common long-term victim symptom) and it's clashing uncomfortably with your conscious reassurance that mum can handle things without you, including bro's feelings. Well, she's just proved she can "and then some!" because, thinking about it - you hadn't even suspected she was up to anything, had you. You...Little Miss Super-Sensitive X-Ray Specs. She's good, isn´t she! Told ya - fast learner. EEZ GURN DAAAAAN! But anyway, stop being so hard on yourself. You´re a VERY healthy and intelligent and sensible model...If you do something it's because according to your smooth-running brain it's the best, most sensible and lasting thing to do - End Of. Hmm... Methinks you have a Dating Yourself deficit, Lils. You seem not to have enough confidence and clarity (bar semi-consciously) over what you're doing, when, and why, which gives your mere fears the room to upset you. Fair observation?

"F******! Too much population " Laser Beam Vision from a novel yet entirely logical angle (contributory factor-wise) - I LIKE IT!

Lils, "Ugh dud unfortunately met Dishy, the other weekend, been trying to put that off for as long as possible." Mission bloody Successful, then! Cos - how long's it been now? ...Until Fate said - Thanks, Lils, for your bit, now it's my turn! BTW forgot to say, tell bro that he must never get used to Dud's bad behaviour whereby he ceases to be shocked (and appalled etc.). Rather, he must get used to having to be shocked through always expecting to be. NEVER get tired of being shocked whereby you let things slide. If you expect it, the shock won´t ever be impactful enough to do damage (other than to sever the last of the unwanted umbilicus), leaving you room to note your observations. If it doesn´t damage you, your mind won't have to pretend it's not there or is normal. Does Bro have a healthy male role model at all, Lils? At his (fractionally-delayed) age it's incredibly important for the health of his future love-life.

"Here they say the cause is what's known as the heat island effect." Explicas, por favor?

"Dud will follow rules outside but only when it’s important to him, or he gets something out of it, like work. He gets paid a lot of money to do minor ops, dermatology removing moles or whatever. So he would have to put on a good bedside manner (bet that’s hard for him for him to do every day) and he would want to impress other consultants. He’s probably very charming! But with other things like going through security at airports, he hates being told what to do and he’d try to be intimating, ugh, it was embarrassing. " And spot-on correct of a common Grandiose pattern outside-of-doors!

The heat island effect is due to concrete, asphalt homes and buildings. Lils I'm surprised that dud is practicing in the field of dermatology with an attitude like that. Note I say practicing

"He’s talking about coming in the house " Advise mum to insist he needs to produce his 2nd Vaccination certificate first. It´s not worth the risk. To explain: Antisocial Sociopaths & and Psychos are the ones who deliberately infect others with the HIV virus - for cowardly, underhanded, passive-aggressive revenge purposes or the power-rush and/sadistic satisfaction....the Socios love to ambush and set traps, where the bad psychos love a slow-revealing or delayed-reaction nasty calling card-type of self-revealing. (Again - the sociopath is Antisocial towards individuals and society both, including, once theyre allowed to get VERY cocky, repulsive habits that one would normally hide in private...."No Shame" is the Sociopath's hallmark.) Actually, I´ve changed my mind. DON´T open that ´no reason´ gift. Or do it outside, wearing rubber gloves and your mask. Really don´t want to make you scared or paranoid but - better safe than sorry, given that it indeed wasn´t warranted, is without ample pre-catalyst, and has no discernible reason behind it AND YET is technically a nice thing to do AND rather hard to resist opening even WHEN you don´t like the giver....which is what makes me think, uh-oh...could be... Yep, proceed with caution, you AND your mum.

I'll continue tomorrow (got time at the mo).

But suffice to say - I´ve just finished telling you to trust that your instincts are always spot-on. Your instinct clearly is telling you not to want to open that present. Probably because you´ve just SEEN him try to ruin your current life - by doing the antisocial thing of raising the topic of your heavy Ex in front of your Current...and then demonstrating his resentment in how he, quote, stomped off. Yep, I defer to your sharp instincts, Lils. Either under all preventative safety measures or not at all, ever - your call.

The Heat Island Effect? Does sound totally logical and plausible - is it a factor that´s been officially recognised?

So Lils, what did Dishy say afterwards about how your dad was, including his stomping off like a petulant child? "so he tried to show his concerned, caring side and gave me medical advice" If he actually HAD a concerned, caring side, he would have given you that parentally-duty-bound closure talk by now. So he can bog-off with his pathetic, irrelevant crumbs until you get the entire piece of closure cake he owes you. ************** Back again to you and Dishy: So - if I read you correctly - which of you raised the topic of moving in together? How are you feeling about it? A bit Oo-er-ish? And what's going to happen with Do Rei Me now that restrictions are due to be lifted? Is mum going to run it?

Hi, I’m now reading and catching up! (happy)

Take your time Lils 😃

Hi! Ah that analogy helps see it more easily :-). Nope didn’t think my mum was that devious, I thought get she was doing it without knowing and I’d have to explain it to her. But she has brought and read books on narcissism. My mum said she and bro had a day out the other day just the two of them. And the topic of dud came up and he told her he really doesn’t want him in the house, it would make him feel really uncomfortable and he doesn’t see why he would have to come in. My mum has listened to him and I don’t think she’s going to let it happen. Bro really likes aunties fiancé, he is nice and healthy as far as I can’t tell and they seem to have a bit in common. Yes, wedding I don’t think it’s going to be able to happen too soon coz of covid but auntie is in planning mode! She started off by saying she just wanted small, quiet wedding in a registry office and go to the pub. Sounded nice but I didn’t believe her when she said this and now she has changed her mind and wants a big wedding. Think bro is just tagging along showing new uncle to be some supportive coz I can imagine auntie going at 100 mph. I’ve left duds present at home unopened and I don’t plan on opening it but wouldn’t be surprised if sis has peaked! ‘Hmm... Methinks you have a Dating Yourself deficit, Lils. You seem not to have enough confidence and clarity (bar semi-consciously) over what you're doing, when, and why, which gives your mere fears the room to upset you. Fair observation?’ - yep I think this is a fair observation. I feel a lot better now, I’m away from dud. As soon as I was able to go back to uni I was gone ! Dishy looked a bit bemused after dud stomped off, think he was trying get his head around the conversation and dud. But he’s said a few times when I now talk about dud, he understands more and why future reconciliation isn’t really going work. Yeah dishy and I are moving in together, with one of his friends/current housemate, who I also know quite well. He raised it a few months ago so I could think about it -he knows me too well! I wasn’t too sure to start with but when I was weighing it all up, I haven’t really enjoyed the last two house share I’ve done so why not? I currently live with two girls who can’t stand each other and if I do anything with one of them the other gets upset/annoyed. And I thought we’d all get along and become best friends. I’m hoping living with two boys will be a lot easier. both dishy and friend are starting teacher training, I’ll be at uni, so I don’t be living in each other’s pockets. Does feel a bit oo-er-ish coz it’s a risk. But I’m starting to look forward to it. Ah my mum and I have been talking about do rei me because her friends have been asking her about it a lot and seems to be a lot of interest. August, when I’m home we are going to start it up again then she’s going to carry it on in term time. Think it’s going to be busy!

Pray tell what do aunties fiance and bro have in common? BLOODY HOT AGAIN 🔥 114 F****** DEGREES!

Well aunties fiancé is a paramedic, anything medical bro is interested in. They both like history, I’m sure they’ll being going to museums soon and it’s good bro will have someone to do that with.

Hola, Amigos! "My mum said she and bro had a day out the other day just the two of them." Excellent Parent-ing tick! "My mum has listened to him and I don’t think she’s going to let it happen. " Has she thought up a plausible excuse to give Dud? Remember, she´ll have to lie better than he does so she´ll need to use his tack of Plausible Deniability, i.e. something he cannot possibly verify as could otherwise trigger his obsessive need for petty revenge. OR, again as they do, wrap a lie around a nugget of truth so as to have the confidence to sound so convincing that he doesn´t even bother checking. Unless, of course, she´s more simply going to let him visit at times only when bro already has plans to go out? "Bro really likes aunties fiancé, he is nice and healthy as far as I can’t tell and they seem to have a bit in common" That's good (potentially), but - how long have they been dating and how many times per week on average? "I can imagine auntie going at 100 mph" Why? Has she been starved of a relationship - or a mentally stimulating project - for too long? And what is he - too weak and helpless to slow her down to a healthier pace so has chosen instead to do the opposite and wholly encourage her (like that even makes sense)? Hmmmm.... I mean - is your average male KNOWN for his commitment-keenness or ability to so passively 'just go along with things', Lils? Isn't that a Red Flag on his part? Note the news smacked me in the face and alarmed me. It wouldn't have done that if it weren't too soon, against Normal-Healthy-Issue-Free template. I mean - didn't you have that reaction when you heard? What about mum? (Remember, it's just good to frisk...unless you've already done this yourself and come up with nothing questionable?) Delving Question: Who plans to move-in with whom? Or are they each going to sell their own houses in order to buy something truly Theirs/neutral?

"I’ve left duds present at home unopened and I don’t plan on opening it but wouldn’t be surprised if sis has peaked! " In that case, assuming she hasn't already, it might be prudent to ask mum to hide it. "I feel a lot better now, I’m away from dud." If he unsettles you and your self-esteem to such a degree that it strikes me as deeply an ongoing rather than mere situational issue, then I think you're right that you need to avoid being in his physical vicinity, at least for long enough that you pass He's Threatening to He's Pathetic & Too Easily Handled/Counter-Duped. You play it however you have to, Lils. Obviously mum does have everything under control. And that is in no small part thanks to you, Lils. SO ENJOY YOUR HOLIDAY. :-) Do me a favour, though - if poss? - and invite bro to stay for the weekend here and there to coincide with when dud's due? It really helps to have oases of of total safety and sanity and, more to the point, ACTUAL distance from one's emotional terrorist whilst at the same time soaking up Dishy's good role modelling. I mean, if YOU can't take it for long then I'm sure it's wreaking even more havoc on bro - even just knowing dud has been back on his territory while he was with his mates will leave him feeling somewhat violated. Would that be do-able with any regularity? I do hope so because what might well happen (usually does) is that little sis wants summa that opportunity to 'hang with the cool young adults' too! ..."Aw, sorry, dad, can't this week". She might soak up some healthier, counteractive attitudes while she was there as well! Food for thought?

"Dishy looked a bit bemused after dud stomped off, think he was trying get his head around the conversation and dud. But he’s said a few times when I now talk about dud, he understands more and why future reconciliation isn’t really going work. " I imagine he recognised his mother - don´t you? - and needed time to get his head around the fact that her own personality dysfunctions ARE, ACTUALLY, "A THING", not unique to her. I imagine he found it perversely reassuring, too. But clearly he's too cautious and diplomatic to say too much at this point, except for that spot-on summing-up there. "Yeah dishy and I are moving in together, with one of his friends/current housemate, who I also know quite well." With a third housemate.... GENTLY DOES IT!...I LIKE IT A LOT! (Y) (A) Whose cleverly sensible idea was that, then?

I'm pleased as punch for you (and him), Lils, and grinning majorly as I type this!

"I currently live with two girls who can’t stand each other and if I do anything with one of them the other gets upset/annoyed." Using you as some trophy to fight over? Talk about taking giant liberties!? Bang Tweedledee & Tweedledum's heads together before you leave, give them a really good dressing-down, like a disgusted mum! You never know, you might unite them by presenting as a common enemy. (Tried & Tested btw, works like a treat, LOL... one will usually come-to and go, 'Who do you think you are, talking to me like that!´, quickly followed by the other going 'Yeah!...'. And make sure as you lecture them you say "you both"...lump them together like your two naughty kids. And then, once they themselves starting answering back in the 5th Person, you just freeze, look from one to the other with a smug grin on your face and say, 'Oh, it´s "We" now, is it? Thank-you, fans!' as you swan out. Manipulation and comeuppance for the power of good, lol, plus an easy, irrefutably deserving pair of targets to practise on. (More fries up the nostril, lol) Talking of fries - bloody hell it´s hot and sweaty tonight! Tsk...trust me to land during the severest Winter since 1959 followed by the hottest bloody July since...er...2019, actually (aaaaand we're back to global warming, 'gulp!'). Still, could be worse...I could still be in Blighty! (*ducks behind desk* LOL)

Bedtime for moi - more tomorrow. Night!

Hi, Mymum excuse is she’s getting a new kitchen and the whole of down stairs is getting a make over, with walls being knocked down! Shes actually wanted this to happen for years, but dud was too tight with money and said no. My only worry is dud might want to get involved somehow and try and get some control. Maybe he could be occupied with some gardening. It’s meant to be getting warmer here so hopefully he’ll stay away from the house, but I think when winter comes, she’s going to have let dud in when bro isn’t there. Yep I do see what you mean with aunties fiancé. Her last ex bf kept on trying to calm her down, in a very patronising way, and he seems to be the opposite. He moved into aunties house just before covid, auntie was pleased because they got along so well. not too sure if they plan on getting a house together. I don’t know if my mum suspects anything with aunties fiancé she’s says she feels protective and has been talking/quizzing him (nicely). Also with bro spending quite a lot of time with him (with auntie around) she’s made it clear, if they start going out to museums, or wherever they want to go, she will be going along too, until she’s comfortable, much to bros disgust. I like that idea of bro and sis coming to stay regularly . Think it will do them both good and give bro a little taster. Can you believe bro is going to visiting universities soon, for next year ? Yes, I did wonder if dishy was making comparing dud to his mum. Hes always made excuses for her and said she’s depressed and lonely but now he’s really realising there is more to her. God she’s miserable, he Skype's her every now and then, and there’s no warmth and she doesn't ask him anything. She just moans. He has given up on trying to get her to look at things more positively. I’m still not keen on his dad either, his step mum on the hand, I just think it’s very lucky he has her. I wasn’t going to move in with Dishy if he didn’t agree to a housemate. Just the two of us would have felt far too quick. Was a little test to see how he’d reacted and he agreed and he went and found that 3rd person. Haha I very nearly did say something to house mates this morning, when they started arguing at 6 am 😐. But I thought if said something then, half asleep, it wasn’t going to come out right. Thankfully they both have summer jobs and they buggered off. So I’m going to have words with both of them this evening, because being woken up so early is not cool! They don’t seem to be arguing about anything in particular now, they just nit pick or call each other names. They are like 14 yrs old, not twenty something yr olds. They were really good friend when we moved in but with covid , one was a really good rule follower the other wasn’t and that’s how the arguments started will be interest to see if they do become friends after. Ah TC has made contact. She texted “hello” to me and that was it. So I texted back and asked how she was and I’m still waiting...2 day later. Will see if this goes anywhere but I’m worried now that’s she’s not ok, so I’ll make sure.

Tsk! I posted a long one then lost the lot! I´ll have to start again in a min and keep doing bite-sized...

1. Characteristic financial abuse noted yet again. No doubt squirreling away savings behind her back year after year whilst claiming they're "too stretched" to afford this or that, and an Isolation bonus because meanwhile the woman has too much 'house shame' to want to invite her friends or other school mums over. Did it used to affect how often you kids had friends over for tea or did you mum swallow her pride and carry on regardless? 2. Love your mum's ability to do a BOGOF, and no lies even necessary. Yep, she's detached alright...he won't know what hit him. Ask her what her cunning plan is for Winter visits. A little garden summerhouse with beanbags and throws, and power for a radiator, fridge, kettle, radio etc., that can't see into the house, for example? 3. Bro can chillax - wanting to monitor his welfare, like he were only 7, is mainly just her excuse to spend time frisking him. Therefore, in fact, you DO know she think she could be iffy. Red Flag 1. Red Flag 2 is the fact he was perfectly okay with moving onto her territory, rather than just waiting till after they wed (- how do we know it'll even happen?). Auntie is obviously drunk as a skunk on Honeymoon Heroin. Red Flag 3 - it was his suggestion to do so. Red Flag 4 - and too soon. Red Flag 5 - she's gone from dominator to SEEMING opposite. Either extreme is bad, you want someone more balanced. Plus Narc partners come in threes if you start your next romance too soon. She probably thought it'd be safer with it being her house and him 'being' so unusually laid-back to point of downright passive because this time SHE would be in-charge and in control...which is precisely why, where two partners are healthy, they wait until they can buy something neutral with no history, 50/50 say....starting from scratch, no baggage. Let's see how utterly passive he remains to be once his feet are under her table, eh? Questions: Did his proposal there-and-then include an (decent) engagement ring? And WHY did he have to move in with her?

Oh, and is he paying her a reasonable amount of rent?

4. "I like that idea of bro and sis coming to stay regularly . Think it will do them both good and give bro a little taster. Can you believe bro is going to visiting universities soon, for next year ? " Like yourself - yes and NO! And good, I'm glad you like the idea of a 'safe house', replete with already trusted, PLUS age-stage appropriate role model in their pair of you (bro - dishy, sis - you). You're a dream of a big sister, do you know that? 5. "I’m still not keen on his dad either," Nor have I been. Basically he did the Narc parent-figure-child-figure role-reversal when he tried to pump you for info and opinions, which is basically asking a child to rescue you instead of another middle-aged adult or therapist (plus no regard for social Dos and Don'ts, as it was first meeting). Plus his missus could have walked in (how hurtful!...how risk-taking!). And if he was asking you it must have been because Dishy had long made it off-limits...which translates to, Eff the rules and boundaries, I wannit and I'm gonna get it. He's either in a wheelchair temporarily and not coping (in overly injured-animal narc-like mode and not over the ex) or permanently in it. Neither is good but obvs the latter is disastrous. 6. Dishy should charge her for a 50 min session per week, eh, to compensate for the fact that - what a downer, ugh. 7. "I wasn’t going to move in with Dishy if he didn’t agree to a housemate. Just the two of us would have felt far too quick. Was a little test to see how he’d reacted and he agreed and he went and found that 3rd person." Ah - YOUR idea! Like mother, like daughter. BRILLIANT test, Lils! (*huge grin and giant thumbs-up*). 8. "Haha I very nearly did say something to house mates this morning, when they started arguing at 6 am 😐." OMG - did they set their alarms especially early or what!? Ugh, no wonder you can't wait to move out! (If only Auntie were being as cautious and sensible as you (*sigh*). There again, she could be subcosciously-deliberately, albeit behind-schedule, going through a box of Narcs, to sample each type in order to get a closer-up understanding for ex-marriage closure purposes?? Find out Lils, by enquiring whether she locked up everything sensitive (personal/ID/financial codes and paperwork) in advance, "just in case"? Or ask mum if she knows (in case Auntie didn't and could clam-up)? "But I thought if said something then, half asleep, it wasn’t going to come out right. Thankfully they both have summer jobs and they buggered off. So I’m going to have words with both of them this evening, because being woken up so early is not cool!" NO, IT IS NOT! ...Selfish prats. "They don’t seem to be arguing about anything in particular now, they just nit pick or call each other names. They are like 14 yrs old, not twenty something yr olds. They were really good friend when we moved in but with covid , one was a really good rule follower the other wasn’t and that’s how the arguments started will be interest to see if they do become friends after." Yep, put actors in the pressure-cooker of COVID and out comes their truer colours! Still, if they're as old as 14 when in rages, that's quite 'old' so they're probably just Benign Narcs or still injured including Narc-Flea-ridden or haven't come out of their natural Teenage narcissistic phase yet. Whatever - they're babies compared to you so... Buy two dummies, and next time, shove them in their mouths as you walk past to the kitchen. (Or kiddie lollipops?) No words required whatsoever ...and you gain a giggle! "Ah TC has made contact. She texted “hello” to me and that was it. So I texted back and asked how she was and I’m still waiting...2 day later. Will see if this goes anywhere but I’m worried now that’s she’s not ok, so I’ll make sure." Thought she might. But next time when the person does that, respond in-kind with just Hello. They called, so they can speak first. Do not waste any energy worrying. She revealed her true colours (and showed she'd just wanted to learn Power Over - AND was up for the challenge of Mr Hypocrite after having first tested whether he was controllable). Has it been roughly 5-6 months, then? It's called a Temperature Test (and is usually done en-masse to test who is still receptive to them, thus to being used as a rescuer, because they're planning to bail on their present lilypad but don't want to have to enter the water) and/or a petty moment to belatedly humiliate you by walking out on you and leaving you hanging. Doing that is another classic, Narc "old chestnut". Do yourself a favour: Text back "I'm really sorry to hear that. Poor you." (= to hear silence, knowing what that move identifies you as...get it?) and then ignore whatever comes back ...which it will because you've check-mated her into 'pitiful' and pitiful is not Superior ergo she´s lost the match rather than won - AND SHE CAN'T HAVE THAT! Additionally, not knowing if it's a dig or a mis-send meant for someone else entirely, which will drive her mad. Or your equally effective choice is DO NOTHING (cos she's not worth another thought, let alone pursuing). IOW - Squish, done properly, or Grey Rock. But either shows she can't fool you and neither are you still potential Supply - so unattached that her tack just amused you, hence making fun out of her. You'll undoubtedly help someone out, by tipping her into a Narc Rage that she can't contain even in front of her public. Or it could be she's a Benign, needed help or a favour at that point in time, so cast her net amongst everyone she knew (highest or fastest respondent wins), and therefore, having found a rescuer, you were now surplus to requirements thus again a moot point. (Yeah, Benign is a bloody misnomer alright.)

I´m all caught up now, I think? "Roger...Over?"

Sorry - meant to clarify... "that can't see into the house, for example?" But whereby either mum can see in or using the fact she can't, added to no kettle or fridge, as her great excuse to randomly keep popping in with treats/snacks or to enquire if they need anything (for monitoring purposes). A hidden Nannycam could be a useful addition?

Hey, I’m seeing auntie in a few days time so I will see how much she tells me. I’m looking after my cousins kids soon, there is now three of them😬. This time though I should be able to take them out a lot more. I’m interested in what older cousin think of aunties fiancé. He’s normally quite opinionated when it come to aunties bfs, and He’s been right about most of them when I thought he was being negative. Dud asked my mum if she wants him to ‘Project Manage’ the building work downstairs. Haha I knew he’d try to take control. My mum said no but if he and sis wanted to do the garden that would be helpful. Sis is not too happy that she’s now involved in this garden project, she thinks gardening and garden centre are boring. Hopefully soon dud will become boring. She has also got a new bf, so I don’t know how much she is going to want dud to be round. She told me she doesn’t want him to meet dud coz he’ll be weird. I had did have friends round when I was younger. bro and sis not so much. thinking about it my mum was really embarrassed with the kitchen she always ushered her friends into the lounge. Dud would argue that he updated the kitchen about 10 years ago, when my mum had complained so much about the it, he got fed up, packed us off to stay with his parents (ugh, that stay it’s self felt like a life time, I remember it well ) and he said he would sort out the kitchen for her. when we came back, stupidly thinking there was going to be a new kitchen…the surface was still the same, he had replaced all the cupboards doors which, might of made a difference, if they weren’t a horrible dark wood colour or second hand. he had also done something to the floor, it was really bumpy and uneven. It can’t have taken him that long and we were away for more then a week. I just remember my mum looking horrified and saying ‘What the f*ck have you done?! And she never swore in front of us. The floor got re done but my mum ended up sanding and painting the doors, so she’s really excited that she finally getting what she’s always wanted. Shes not going let him touch her project. He had many failed DIY projects where he would do it himself half heartedly or he would give up and leave it rather then get someone in to do the job. There was also the time when he asked me if I wanted a dressing table, of course I said yes. He disappeared, I thought he had gone to buy me one he never did randomly buy something nice (apart from sis). He came with a large blank of wood and a mental pole, somehow fixed them together, my mum wasn’t too impressed coz he had drilled into the wall and floor to secure it …and tada! A dressing table. He was very pleased with himself and that it hardly cost him anything and I ended up with …a weird table thing, with no chair, no mirror, no drawers, in my room, that I kept walking into. Wasn’t long until my mum and I went IKEA and replaced his weird idea. Ahh we used to have a garden summer house type thing, was nice, sis used it quite a lot to do art stuff and my mum used to go and do marking for work in there, and probably to get away from dud. I liked reading in there. But guess who got knocked it down? That’s one thing dud did pay for to be done. When I asked bro and sis if they would want to come and stay with me, they both said yes straight away, then started arguing about who was going to stay first in the October half term . I told them there is room for both of them but sis, wants to come on her own... Apart from that, with her new bf and bro going to uni in a years time, I’m hoping he doesn’t go to far away, I think it’s going to work well! Ohh god dishys dad…seriously if it’s not his Mum being difficult and miserable it’s him. A couple of weeks ago dishy went home to visit his step mum and dad for a few days. At the time he said he overheard them arguing a lot, b no either of them seemed themselves and wondered if things were ok. Dishy also left early coz his dad picked a fight with him about his mum. This happened when his step mum went out with her friends for the evening and he said he wasn’t looking forward to it just being the two of them. His step mum was angry the next day (with his dad) when dishy said he was leaving early. Then this weekend his step mum came to stay near by without his dad …and she told dishy and his step bro she and dishy’s dad are separating, she’s been unhappy for a few years. TBH they never did seem particularly happy, she always seemed to be frustrated with his dad :-/. Anyway she said she had suggested dishy’s dad come with her but he refused and told her to go alone. So he knows she’s told dishy…has dishy heard from him? Nope. Bit of an emotional weekend for them coz dishy loves his step mum (I do too :-(). When it was his birthday a few months ago she was the one who sent him a present (probably coz she knew his dad wouldn’t), organised a Skype call so we could all talk and what did he get from his parents? Nothing, no Skype call from his mum, no text or call from his dad. I was angry for him. I remember at the time his step mum being furious with his dad for not saying anything to Dishy until we had the Skype call, which was in the evening. His step mum is still in the area and I’m seeing her tomorrow, before she drives back home. Just me, dishy is working. Not to necessarily talk about this, will just be nice to see her, coz she was quite upset, over the weekend. If she does talk then it would be good because I think dishy is going to need reassurance, from her mainly, that he's not loosing her or his step bro. At the moment he believes he is but I think he’s mainly sad and angry :-( and he’s not thinking rationally. He’s also got his dad to talk to, which I know he’s not looking forward to 🤦‍♀️. I’m not really looking forward to the next few days. Got a horrible there is more. Moving on… When I confronted housemates, one of them apologised which I wasn’t expecting and said she had been feeling bad about it all day. the other (the covid rule breaker) got angry, ranted for a bit and was like ‘f*** you both, I’m moving out!’ Didn’t think she was serious so I was preparing myself for a few awkward weeks, but she did, moved in with her bf. Good luck to him! Been good since :-) . But I am still soo looking forward to moving out now. Yeah I think it been six month, maybe more, since I last saw TC and I really can’t be bothered so I’ve said nothing. I can’t be bothered with the drama, quite a lot of that going on already!

Lils what's the latest with Duds, Mum and auntie?

Hey, I was waiting to see auntie before I replied. Her fiancé does pay his half of the rent and he moved in because auntie suggested he did because of covid. she told me keeps her ID, important doc/ possessions locked away and always done this. She did confine in me and say that she was disappointed with his proposal it was ‘a bit sh*t’, her words, he just asked her there was no nice big surprise. Auntie loves that kind of thing and she said she thought he knew her better. But she said she put his thoughtlessness down to covid and him not being able to do much or take her anywhere ….hmmm I don’t agree with that excuse if I’m honest. Didnt know how honest to be so just listened. Things are still the same with mum and dud. Both bro and sis are coming to stay with me soon.

Hey Lils So are bro and sis moved in with you? The covid Delta variant seems to be the hot topic now. I've been fully vaccinated since July. Hopefully aunties fiance moving in works out and things don't turn ugly 😅

OMG, Lils and Scopes, I am so sorry for the massive delay! Bear with a day or two more, be with you soon as I can.

Hi, No probs soulmate. I’ve been soo busy with uni. No scopes bro and sis are not moving in, just coming to stay, bro soon hopefully. Although I have to pass it by with our pain in the arse landlord first. God he’s a delight. I’ve decided he’s def OCD, and I’ve got my tick list and clip board out with him. He’s an interest (weird) character. Auntie and fiancé have lived together since covid, so I can only thinks it’s going well. But she has gone very quiet, which is not like her. I might go and visit her soon!

Hey again! Just a quickie... Now got guests! Was trying to find a window before they landed but - no such luck, so, going to have to ask you to bear with until the weekend. Still, you sound happy to wait, now't urgent that needs addressing, so that's good. :-) Laters forumgators!

Ya can't just submit an emoji here 👍

Hey Soulmate and Scopes, well I was going to write back and say how happy I was, and that I made the right decision moving in with Dishy and friend. All was good. Then Dishy told me he needs his own space and moved into the spare room! He’s lucky there’s a spare room for him to have ‘his own space’. It feels like he doesn’t want to be anywhere near me, he comes home from working all day then locks himself away, so it feels personal, and he’s not said anything reassuring. He knows I would give him space if he asked for it, he doesn’t need to remove himself! Also a bit immature, it’s like, is he really going to do this every time there is a problem or when he’s not coping? He’s has been pretty depressed since his step mum and dad split up and that he doesn’t have good relationships with either of his parents. I’ve been saying him his step mum and dad splitting up doesn’t actually change anything for him, it’s something he will get used to. The positives are his step mum he as moved closer, she’s closer to family and friends. Shes probably happier. I’ve suggested he call, text, visit her but no he won’t do anything and he’s ignoring her when she’s tried to communicate with him. Hes said he doesn’t want to be a burden to her. I’m trying to be patient but I’m getting p*ssed off too with being ignored and beginning to think this wasn’t a good idea. Next week I’m going home, so he can have even more space :-|. Starting up biz again properly which will be fun and distracting.

(Suddenly runs into room, all out-of-breath, and collapses into chair...) The usual S-word, LOL. Scopes, "Ya can't just submit an emoji here" Could be because it's a forum thread, not a mobile text thread? (...ya daftie) Lils, let me read and re-read before I reply...

Wait up, your last post is the most pressing for you so I'll leave the other topics for last... "Then Dishy told me he needs his own space and moved into the spare room! He’s lucky there’s a spare room for him to have ‘his own space’. It feels like he doesn’t want to be anywhere near me, he comes home from working all day then locks himself away, so it feels personal, and he’s not said anything reassuring." What the eff?! Can you give me the full s.p. please, starting right from the beginning? Right now, since you've been alleging he hasn't put a single foot wrong before now, my first gut thought is that he's suddenly experiencing an epiphany of the negative variety, i.e. all the data, including past, mis-classified memories to do with whether and what was wrong with hisparents, and quite possibly peers, etc.... all the jigsaw pieces have switched/dropped into their CORRECT place and the whole picture is doing his head in and/or giving him a giant reaction (that would not be pretty). And maybe he needs to cry a lot (not manly-impressive). Time to finally grieve, IOW. HOWEVER, if that is the case, then it was bound to be big. One narc parent but the other sane and more than compensatory, and you're only half-injured or possibly only superficially. BUT - AS CAME TO ONLY RECENT LIGHT (tut-tut), he lacked the latter so - depending on his own strength of mind - was/is fully injured. So this scenario can render the adult-child fully narcissised if they were born particularly delicate and compliant or the parent(s) were overly harsh. Other times, it doesn't activate UNTIL the same danger point in terms of closeness and nakedness is met. But as usual, I'm more interested in your reaction because it always tells me an awful lot. You seem unimpressed (tick!) rather than panicky and desperate for his better explanation, reassurance, attention, etc. You're not reacting like a woman who truly senses a need to be concerned on the personal level. You're even chirpy enough to look forward (to re-starting the biz). So - you're ok. So I'm thinking - too many jigsaw pieces all at once, too many past and present, narc-created toxins coming out all at once....Not Sexy. Depends, though, on other info I need, such as - define 'moved into'. Over to you. PS - regardless of the Why and Why in that childiish way: "Next week I’m going home, so he can have even more space :-|." HURRAH - WHAT A HEALTHY, SASSY, SELF-RESPECTFUL ATTITUDE! I am extreeeemely proud of you, Lils. Extremely. :-)

Seriously... ROUND OF APPLAUSE FOR OUR LILY, PLEASE, EVERYONE!

(Sorry if that embarrasses you, Lils, but with that amount of sense and sass for one so young, I reckon there's going to be a lot more in RL to come...so you'd better get used it. LOL)

Also, Lils - if all the giant jigsaw pieces have indeed all just crashed into place (which was bound to happen...I admit I'`ve been waiting for it) then consider the relevancy of the 'un-obvious bleedin-obvious' trigger: PLAYING HOUSE. It and the swiftness of reaction does fit. (We educatedly hope.) In addition, the crash is too recent for him to have a language for, in order to explain and reassure sufficiently. But anyway - back to you and the fuller s.p. - or change in situation since?

PPS: I said leave the other topics for later when I meant after, i.e. after this problem is sorted.

Heyyy, have you two made up already? Whapnin, Geezerette?

A big round of applause 👏 Lils Ahem...you were saying Soulmate 😁😆

Hey, Yes that’s right Dishy hadn’t put a single foot wrong, until now, we were happy, well I was. He got frustrated with his parents sometimes but he talked about it and with his mum especially he was learning how to manage her miserableness and very negative outlooks, with humour or he’d distract himself after he spoke to her. I think this really started after he had an argument with his dad in the summer (I know mentioned this up there ^^) . They haven’t spoken since, usually, dishy would of made some attempt to make up but this time he’s hasn’t. On the very rare occasion when he has spoken about his dad he’s just been angry. So that’s been going, I think if I had an argument with my mum and we didn’t make up, I wouldn’t be happy either. Then his step mum announced she was leaving his dad. There was one point (I don’t know why she told him this, I think she should of kept this to herself and go and do what she needed to do) where she was considering giving his dad another chance, she went back to the family home, stayed for a weekend. So for that weekend Dishy was a bit more upbeat but anxious if it would work out and when it didn’t work out he came crashing back down again. He did seem distant after that but he was still talking. I thought once he started his teaching training that would be a good distraction and it was, he seemed to really like it. But then he stopped socialising with his friends, he’s quite sociable person. Him and our housemate went off every Saturday to play football; that stopped. I was really enjoying my peaceful Saturday mornings! He didn’t want to do anything, go anywhere with me because he said he didn’t have the energy to do anything, he felt tired all the time. he also became was being quite negative and snappy if me or housemate tried to encourage to do things. He was also saying annoying, depressing things to me like ‘I don’t deserve you’ that was after I gave him advice or if I didn’t something for him. Then I realised his step mum had been trying to contact him, he had ignored a few of her calls and when I questioned him about that’s he got very defensive and shut down the conversation. . I’m wondering now he’s angry with her. By this point I was thinking he needs counselling or someone to talk to before it got worse, so I tried pick a good time to talk to him and I was getting quite worried and because he’s(usually) a sensible person I thought he was going to agree with me but instead he told me what he actually needed was space and time to think, instead of people telling him what to do 🙄 and stomped into the spare room. My reaction was quite delayed at the time I was frustrated and like ugh, how childish, I was telling myself just stay calm, I didn’t like what he was doing but clearly everything has got on top of him and he can’t seem bounce back like he normally does. He didn’t take much of his stuff with him, either, so I thought he’d be back when he was ready. I Didn’t expect him to sleep there for the number of nights he did before I went home. Also I did just want to go home and talk to my mum about it, I had a good rant/cry. She was sympathetic towards him but agreed moving himself into the spare room was not necessary. I’ve told her a bit about his mum and dad in the past and shes often asked me if there were any improvements. She wasn’t surprised either. I was hoping the situation would change last week when I was at home, that he’d call me or send a text, with something reassuring but I didn’t hear anything from him. I was a bit up and down emotionally but biz really did help. I did draft out quite a few texts to send to him but they didn’t come out right, too angry or too emotional. In the end I texted our house mate to make sure dishy was ok, he is one of his best friends and he was obviously noticing things weren’t right. I’m pleased I did text him because he then took it upon himself to keep an eye on him, and gave me daily little updates, which helped a lot, I didn’t ask him to. He’s a very positive person, (just like to say, compared to other housemates I’ve had, he’s so easy live with and talk to) so he’s been right person to help dishy I think. He even managed to get him to go on daily walks, I’ve been trying to get him to do that with me for ages! and apparently he opened up a tiny bit one of the walks. That’s was reassuring, I can’t help but feel a bit offended that he was more successful then me. I was quite anxious about coming back, I put off till late last night, so not seen dishy yet. He has sent me a text saying he’s sorry and he wants to talk later. So this is good. I’m just trying to figure out how I feel really. there are things that he did that I’m really not that happy about, I know he hasn’t been in he right frame of mind …I dunno, I want to make up with him, but he needs reassure me that he isn’t going to bugger to spare room if there’s an argument or he’s not coping, I don’t want this to be a recurring thing. Also he needs to help himself in whatever way he think will help him. I don’t think that’s too much to ask ? I will have to wait and see what he has to say!

Lils I think you're doing the right thing by giving him space. As one person said to me a few years ago time heals.

Oh gowd, he’s anxious and stressing about everything, things I didn’t even know about 🤦‍♀️. He's slightly warming to the idea of counselling, there’s still some reluctance, the excuse is he doesn’t really have the time (funnily enough some counsellors do work weekends, now, even online! 🙄). I’m not going to push it, its what I would do. Maybe if him and house mate carried on with their walks and talks that will help. I just think this going to keep coming up for him and he’s going to keep on feeling anxious until he properly talks about it. I told him that. The good thing is he’s still really enjoying teaching, and he finds it rewarding, if he was hating his job too then that wouldn’t be good.

Poor Dishy. I teared-up when I read that. It's not fair, is it, Lily. Thank god you're so sensible and have such amazing self-restraint. But - "I can’t help but feel a bit offended that he was more successful then me." Nah, mate, that's a huge compliment (as well as a satellite issue). Granted, The Grumpy Caveman method's not always the best way of dealing with it, but it's the measure of the Neglected (still in the habit of sorting himself out on his own). You he still wants to impress. Same-sex 'mucker' - nice, but more easily replaced? (- cos he'll be suffering bouts of paranoia, and catastrophising) - nope. He'll be feeling extra-insecure, making that need not to risk losing you - his fave person in the world - even MORE imperative - to the extent where he feels it's just safest to keep himself quarantined from you - as well as to preserve his all-important sense of manly confidence and allure. Put it this way: what if he cried as hard as he needed to, in front of you, and suddenly this big snot bubble appeared? That could be just one concern of many. Another is he might have an upset tummy with uncontrollable flatulence (common stress response). And/or tossing and turning too much, all night long? Or having nightmares? Or what if he triggered himself into a well-deserved meltdown and threw something across the room in front of you? Might you freak-out and call the whole thing off? Me, I doubt it. But then, I'm perfectly compos mentis plus have known you, to the core, for longer, plus haven't just been betrayed on many levels, have I. He's been forced by events to now take the semi-blinkers off and let the full mind-f*** in. He needs to express his feelings freely, without inhibition. Not sure I could do a new job - my all-important first ever - under that circumstance. He won't have the energy OR HEADSPACE to focus on much else. His poor brain has just had a full mail sack slung into his Emotional In-tray. And you've just had a bit of a pellet-ing from his air-gun as a consequence. So, if necessary, you just need to TELL him all of this: "So this is good. I’m just trying to figure out how I feel really. there are things that he did that I’m really not that happy about, I know he hasn’t been in he right frame of mind …I dunno, I want to make up with him, but he needs reassure me that he isn’t going to bugger to spare room if there’s an argument or he’s not coping, I don’t want this to be a recurring thing. " Because it's perfectly fair enough. Just because he's ready, doesn't mean you are too. He ain't Bagpuss. Good plan to not approach with any negative expectations and just see what he says. You never know, given he's done the verbal half of the apology, he might well remove his misfired air-gun pellets immediately and kiss it all better. So. When you're ready. After all, your offer to talk came BEFORE you got caught in his crosshairs, so things for you have CHANGED now. Ball's in your court. Bounce and catch it before serving, for as long as it feels necessary and rightful to. (Are either of you lending a hand in terms of his daily chores? Is he on top of his clothes-washing or starting to pong a bit?)

PS: he might just be feeling (justifiably) sorry for himself and venting out some toxins but - him saying he's not worthy shows he's still overly prone to wondering if his parents are like that because he's not as loveable as other kids (now adult), and whether you could end up following suit. Maybe remind him of our mantra - "Right Qualities (yours), WRONG RECIPIENTS (this case, the damaged people whose bodies produced you)". It's not his fault his parents don't work right. (Makes me want to adopt him.)

I'm with Scopes. I think it would be better for him to stay in the spare room until you can sense he genuinely feels ready. His olive-branch may not eeven include moving back in yet. Even if it does, it might only be because he feels pressured to (i.e. too worried not to). Maybe you could have an arrangement to visit one another's bed just for a cuddle, here and there? Best of both worlds for a while? And then build up from there? I vote you visit his bed - by his invitation. He'll get feel in control of something(!) whilst you´ll get to sleep starfish (because he gets to keep the wet patch, ROFL!)

No it’s not fair :-(. Been feeling a bit meh today, just wanted things back to normal, and it felt like (could of been me) there was a little bit of tension in the house. so I decided to do some baking (needed some comfort food) both Dishy and housemate came to find out what I was making. We had chat in the kitchen eating cookies and it a bit better. Dishy didn’t move back in, he didn’t think it was a good idea yet. Was quite a long talk on Tuesday he did the talking and said sorry again and he knows I need reassuring. He's so anxious, and said he worries about everything. Like his dad being on his own, even though they’re not talking. His thoughts are quite conflicting, he doesn’t really know what to do. And yes he’s insecure too, he said he thought I fancied our housemate, and that I preferred him and his company, he’s been reassured that I don’t! He did knocked on the door last night, wanting to watch a Netflix’s series, couldn’t see why not, he’s trying, like he said he would but I didn’t like it/felt really weird when he left. I like the idea of visiting each other and taking it slow. Could be quite interesting on his single bed. Er, I’m a bit scared to step into his man cave incase it does smell and there are cups and plates and who knows what else :^) . He doesn’t smell, so I’m hoping not. He’s seeing step mum tomorrow, no idea if this a good idea or not, I tried to find out how he was feeling about this but he didn’t give much away, so we’ll see how that goes! I’m seeing sibs :-) so I won’t be bored.

Going out for a bike ride will definitely finish reading this 👌

The tension you feel is discombobulation and slight alienation - his first and then yours, thanks to his. Suddenly, something's different. You feel distanced and unsure of each other and how to behave around one another (him first, you second). His trust in human relationships, especially close ones, has just been seriously, seriously shaken (which ALSO will be spilling onto you, Lils). Bear in mind, that there will have been justifications from his father for having divorced his mother and then married again. POOFFF!...turns out they were BS (as far as Dishy's concerned). He had his whole world smashed, at a delicate age. Then it got rebuilt for a while, enough time that he forgave the world and dared to bravely believe that it wouldn't happen a second time, it was a one-off. But it did. First his childhood, and now his teen years and early adult years. Headf*ck City. And that's not even the half of it. If the impossible can happen TWICE, then - how on earth does one ever feel safe again? And it casts doubt onto everyone and everything. So you have to stick to those who you feel safest with. Bar the walks, he'll probably want to just enjoy the safety of his worklife routine - up, work, home, eat, sleep, repeat. But he WILL be okay because he has a vital component of what it takes; a support network of highest quality: you, housemate, stepmum (if no longer 2nd wife... I mean, he ain't getting rid of HER in a hurry, by the sounds!). Here - where's his brother & his gf? "We had chat in the kitchen eating cookies and it a bit better. " Oh, GOOD. Ha ha, ...puts real truth into the age-old saying, 'The way to a man's heart is through his stomach'. Good ol' cookies, LOL. You're obviously a good baker. It brought them instantly out of their caves, suddenly all sociable, look! Remember that magic spell, Lils, it's obviously very potent and could prove mighty useful again and again. LOL ...'Nooooo, not the cookies - anything but that!...noooooookay, I´ll talk, whaddayawannaknow?' :-D "Dishy didn’t move back in, he didn’t think it was a good idea yet." I tend to agree, really. It's hard getting up-close and personal when you're in hypervigilant mode, wondering where the next dagger's coming from and feeling close to tipping point, still. Plus you need to benefit from sleeping alone and having YOUR OWN cave for a bit longer, I feel. You got a bit bruised back there, eh. "He's so anxious, and said he worries about everything." Yeah - cos he's however-much traumatised. That's what negative, present-day AND belated epiphanies can do. BUT STILL DOING HIS NEW CAREER JOB, NOTE (he um strong Tarzan). AND came half-out of his cave, early, just for you. AND you gave him an appetite (did his stepmum bake cookies?). That he agreed to see his stepmum is very encouraging, Lils. Yeah, you'll both be fine. :-)

Any update yet?

The first paragraph makes so much sense and dishy has told me how he’s been feeling what you said, in his own words the other day. When he was on his way back from visiting his step mum, he went by train, driving makes him anxious sometimes, he called me and asked if I could meet him at the station. I said I would and I could tell he hesitating, then told me he was feeling really anxious almost panicky, and it felt like everything closing in on him, could I stay on the phone and talk to him. So I did, until I had to leave to meet him. Was a bit worried about him but apparently a lady near him on the train overheard him say he was anxious and asked if he was ok, sat closer to him and talked (non stop apparently), which was nice. I thought it was about his step mum but he said it was nice visit. He wanted to make sure he dad isn’t being mean to her in anyway because, these are Dishys words, he knows he can be a spiteful pr*ck. Then when we were home, he said he had been thinking about if he should move back into our room, what did I think? I told him no, I didn’t think that was a good idea. We both know it’s not a good idea! He replied with (think I remembered most of what he said) ‘when then? I know I moved but when do I move back? I don’t like being apart, and just so you know I hate being alone. I don’t know if I can hold your hand, hug you, kiss you, touch you, I don’t know how to be around you or even talk to you. I don’t know if your angry with me. If you like me. I didn’t know if I could call you when I was feeling really anxious on the train, it’s really confusing. I feel like I have messed everything up and I know you want me to go to counselling but I'm ready for that, I put fear to bed today (step mum) that I feel a lot better about, I am trying” He was saying this with tears in his eyes 💔. I did think ‘oooo tears finally!’, but he blinked them away, because it’s not cool/manly to cry in front of your gf! It was hard to hear but it was an insight to what he’s been feeling and what I have been too and led to a talk about what we were both feel comfortable with. He realises I’ve had my fingers burnt, so now it feel like we’re understand this a bit more together. I think him feeling anxious on the train might of scared him a bit too because he wasn’t an anxious person before and now he’s feeling all theses uncomfortable feelings. Step bro and gf are around, im guessing he’s been unsure about contacting him too. I’m a baker in practice, getting a lot better …I’m amazed if I don’t set off fire alarm and nothings burnt. Dishy mum does do a lot of baking/cooking wouldn’t surprise me if she did make cookies for him.

Uh-oh. That is NOT good. Sounds very much like a mild Panic Attack (from over prolonged anxiety, Lils). They're like being mutineered on-the-spot, into a vice-like grip by a very lucid, highly disturbing, waking nightmare state or really bad drugs trip, over which you have ZERO control and can't wake from. And with actual, horrid, mental and physical sensations, wherein you feel like you're in peril (about to be attacked) and doomed, and a sense of vulnerability to a degree you never even knew was possible!...like a toddler dumped in a clearing in the middle of a jungle, surrounded by rapidly approaching man-eating tigers, snakes, etc., and DEMONS! Intense isn't the word for it. It can feel so bad that you doubt you can survive it, convinced your heart is headed for actually packing-up and/or your mind for snapping from too much fright. In short, you can feel like, out of nowhere, this is the moment you die. Panic Attack is such a minising name for such a catastrophic event, it really is. It's downright terrifying and traumatic. Thank god his was mild one - or got nipped in the bud - or I reckon he'd have literally ended up curled on the pavement in the foetal position. But - YOU HANDLED IT BRILLIANTLY, LILS! Well done for holding his hand and talking him down (and then that lady putting the cherry on the top - what a sweet woman...everyone wants to adopt him, look, LOL). And look at HIM - he immediately reached out for YOU. Not best friend. Not stepmum. Not his (er) mum. YOU. Ta-daaa! Deep down he DOES know he's safest with you over everyone. He's just doing a fairly typical but temporary bouncing off the the walls. A mild Panic Attack can be a warning, though, of more and bigger ones to come, UNLESS he uses this coming weekend to stock up on total relaxation, love, care, safety, security and being spoiled (and hugged) ROTTEN. So get your foot pumps out, you and housemate, and set about relaxing him and reinflating his ego TOUTE SUITE. He needs to stay fit enough to perform at work. If his job suffers, he'll slide further down into the muddy hole and have an even harder job getting himself out. If you can, persuade him hard, into having a long, comfortably hot, candlelit bubblebath, run and set-up by you, with a couple of cans of lager/whatever and his fave music or radio station playing quietly and loads of (pref rosy-red) tealight votives to fool his inner animal into thinking he's back in the safest place he's ever known - the womb. (Psst!... turns out, surprisingly, that men adore bath bombs even more than women.) He needs to have that period of being alone BUT COMPLETELY SAFE (bar you offering to wash his hair or back?) in order to re-strengthen (or should I say, repair) that association. Take parental CONTROL of and COSSET him - in the nicest ways possible. Gang-up, two against one, if that's what it takes to persuade him to accept. Or use bribery (cookies!!!). But equally - let him reciprocate, in low-cost ways, if he insists. Or even ask for his help with opening a jar or something (something simple but vital and manly), remind him that he's needed. PUMP, PUMP, PUMP!... Project Emergency Rescusitation. Meanwhile, if he'd like a free leg-up in terms of maintaining an even keel and completely heading-off any more danger at the pass, this episode would be enough for his GP to there-and-then prescribe a low-dosage, non-addictive, anti-anxiety medication. They're basically just big arm-bands, so that you can stop fighting to keep your head above the muddy water and have a rest, plus they give you just enough lift to be able to reach the proffered hands and manhole edge. But he'd have to tell his GP all about it without holding back about how horrifying it was, for worrying about feeling unmanly, Lils, in order to avoid any delay despite the backlog (or alternatively, go private just this once). Being accumulative, they can start to work as early as Day 3 and gently increment from there, usually reaching a peak and plateau-ing by the 2nd or 3rd month. Otherwise, it's self-discipline, exercise, fresh air, and natural drugs - St John's Wort, or Valerian, Camomile Tea, Herbal Nitol... Are you familiar with these sorts of herbal meds? Anyway, over the coming days, I'd say definitely bake more cookies, make his meals, all watch his fave childhood films...all the sorts of things that to him (or any little boy that's just had a huge fright) represent the (rare) times/pockets when he felt safe, secure, and pampered by his parents or relatives - or the sorts of ideal scenarios you can imagine said type of boy would have fantasised over. Spoil the eff out of him and, if he tries to modestly protest, tell him, both of you, 'Take it, b*tch, you know you love it, AND you deserve it!', LOL. Or ask him what his idea of being spoiled is. Sound like a plan, Stan? Even if he's stubborn about it, just having the offer there, along with the fact you thought to, could be sufficient to make just enough of a rapid and effective preventative recovery.

Next item on ze agenda... " thought it was about his step mum but he said it was nice visit. He wanted to make sure he dad isn’t being mean to her in anyway because, these are Dishys words, he knows he can be a spiteful pr*ck. " Right. I suspect she inadvertenly reminded Dishy that she - his only mum figure - could be at threat and seen off - or at least have to face a big fight to keep her obviously very strong attachment to Dishy. (Here it comes... get ready to start hearing Dishy confide gorier details of the fuller picture, Lils.) (Which reminds me: your autocorrect keeps changing Confide into Confine, still.) Meantime, let's re-cap: Dad (as Dud as yours, it seems) has exhibited these extreme symptoms, which I'll break down into components so you can see HOW many wrong/sick moves the guy has actually made: 1. He, a full-sized man and stranger, confronted, shocked (= no prior frame of reference), embarrassed and intimidated ( - "Aargh - mega-awks!!!") 2. his (post-traumatised, still recovering) son's 3. brand-new, 4. obviously important (and re-strengthening!) 5. bound to be nervous, 5. young 6. GIRLfriend 7. - and STRAIGHT after introductions - 8. into a corner 9. and into handling 10. FOR him (to whom you owed nothing) 11. his STILL-OCCURING 12. adult battle 13. with your new boyfriend's (wait for it) MOTHER, 14. in the process, getting her to inadvertently cross a boundary of Dishy's and display loyalty to him and thereby automatically (- construably) against the other parent. 15. And neither do I remember him having THANKED you or having CAUGHT HIMSELF AND APOLOGISED. You must have LOOKED really awkward, Lils. Dissected further, these are one or more strong demonstrations of: Inappropriate Affect, no sense of propiety.....inappropriate everything. IN-A-PPROP-RI-ATE. Highly. Into Anti-Social and antisocial territory (what I call a Cutlery Clanger). Huge over-entitlement (I wannit - I´m taking it, regardless of who gets hurt...Yours, Sociopath) Not taking Dishy's "No" for an answer (by asking his associate), in the process... ....going behind Dishy's back to take (again) from Dishy whatever His Lordship wants, regardless of (etc.)... Not taking YOUR on-the-spot Nos for an answer (over-entitlement again plus hidden aggression plus superiority plus power-abusing). Trying to strong-arm you by using the Pity Ploy (manipulation and gaslighting). Giant chauvenism and objectifying...almost seeming to see you this way: WOMAN EQUALS FREE THIS/THAT AND SHOPLIFTED THERAPY SESSIONS WHENEVER I SAY, AND NO MEANS YES (OR NOTHING). Intimidation, strong-arm-ing and badgering (you wouldn't want to risk displeasing your bf's father on first ever meeting or at all, would you) - hidden aggression again. Experiencing no compassion or empathy on seeing the shocked and awkward expression take hold of your face and posture. RELYING ON YOUR POLITENESS AND DECORUM, i.e. using your good qualities against you. He behaved like he was in the playground and you were the much older, school monitor and prefect. Picture it... with you confronted by the school bully (small but still nasty and disturbing...unhinged), squaring subtly up to you until your back's against the mesh fence, him asking with his face too close to yours, what your best friend Ben has told you about Ben's older sister, his ex, and what she says and thinks about him, all the while ignoring your polite protests and claims to ignorance whilst basically repeating his question over and over, and when that doesn't work, turning on the tears. And then we have the recent biggie of "I'm not looking forward to it being just the two of us". BY RIGHTS, in both cases, either of you could have just told this CHILD to "Eff-off you bleedin' headcase!". (Here, maybe he was overall hoping to put you off wanting to visit again - for purposes of Isolation of wife and Dishy?...in the process, getting to surreptitously plant a seed of threat in his second wife's head, over his ex-wife...and in the process, beginning to really Triangulate the two women. And I'll bet money that he cheated - said pre-triangulation tactic meant to create a dust-cloud behind which to do so.) But anyway... I haven't even dissected the half of it - because the above says it all already. So we know what HE'S behaving PERSISTENTLY just like, don't we, children? :-) And you know what they say: If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, ...It's probably a duck. You and Dishy have even more in-common than you'd thought, look! Save for the fact that your mum's not remotely quackers.

...Thank god his surrogate mum is like your mum! That makes you and Dishy a pretty damn perfect match. You're besties, you're lovers, you share big chemistry, you've both walked the same childhood and teen (bombed) paths (self-reared and partly self-programmed) so your brains have developed the same, you're CONSENSUALLY each other's post-abusive Constant come Therapist, you like the same people, you live the same (he DOESN'T pong ergo must be tidier than the average, newly post-narcissistic young chappie), you think the same, feel the same, SOON WILL (after this) deal with things the same... Are you intending to wear matching Christmas jumpers this year? LOL Which reminds me: we three forgot our anniversary again. Ha-ha, what are we like!

It's late (or early lol), so I'll continue replying tomorrow (been given a few unexpected windows this week, thankfully).

(WHEW)Almost thought I'd forgotten my password, having a senior moment here. COOKIES! 🍪 🍪 I'll bake a whole tray for myself! Lils you're doing fine 🙂

She is, isn't she. What about your cookies? Did they do fine? What flavour were they? And do you make them all lovely and chewy in the middle? (Haha, think I must be hungry)

Lils, Continuing on... "I did think ‘oooo tears finally!’, but he blinked them away, because it’s not cool/manly to cry in front of your gf!" What did you do, though? Did you give him a hug or affectionate touch of any kind? I'm sure, living with neglectful and abusive parents, he would, more often than not, have found himself invalidated and/or punished in some way for crying. He'll grow out of that outdated, machismo attitude (Narc Fleas) if he receives enough positive, even rewarding overlays. Tell him that and prove it by pointing out his tearducts in front of the mirror. And tell him that crying flushes out narc-created toxins, and is vital for mental health. Tell him, loving partners feel touched, honoured and impressed (and a lot of the time, relieved) that their partner, male especially, are brave enough or feel comfortably enough to do so. Remind him that 'doormats' never existed (manipulative, Narc propaganda to seriously discourage victims from wanting to confide about the abuse lest they got labelled as such) and that, in fact, your narcissistic like to hunt, catch and bring down really IMPRESSIVE specimens, particularly if they're in whatever ways "different", because, obviously, the ego-boost is significantly more satisfying and longer-lasting. Male tearducts are not there merely for decoration (or Real Men cry) and It's flattery, Jim, but not as we know it and Right Qualities - just Wrong Recipient(s) and Everything is alright in the end. So if everything isn't right - it's simply not the end yet. He's coping well, considering (e.g. he could have kept it or how he felt a however-long secret) but all these sorts of positive recalibrations will help speed up his rate of recovery. And short sayings are far easier to recall so feel free to make up some on your own (the pair/trio of you). Plus, he does always see when things are wrong and unhealthy so he's obviously, like you, fairly slime-proof (or flea-proof). I don't think he'll take long to bounce back. And this is his opportunity to remove some needless shackles and live and behave more freely, certainly with his intimates (you and housebessiemate). "It was hard to hear but it was an insight to what he’s been feeling and what I have been too and led to a talk about what we were both feel comfortable with. He realises I’ve had my fingers burnt, so now it feel like we’re understand this a bit more together. " Excellent. "I think him feeling anxious on the train might of scared him a bit too because he wasn’t an anxious person before and now he’s feeling all theses uncomfortable feelings." Completely normal and to be expected after you've effectively just been unplugged from the matrix. One of the reasons why the Cluster Bs are so harmful to our minds-then-bodies. "Step bro and gf are around, im guessing he’s been unsure about contacting him too. " This is a job for on-paper heirarchy. Older sibling naturally tends to contact the younger. Plus, Dishy will want to be clearer and have the language for it. He'll feel ready when he is ready (same for older, I expect). "I’m a baker in practice, getting a lot better …I’m amazed if I don’t set off fire alarm and nothings burnt." You're amazed to find you have a talent for it, you mean? Your mum's a good cook, though, isn't she? "Dishy mum does do a lot of baking/cooking wouldn’t surprise me if she did make cookies for him." Ah-HAH, there we go, then. It's a symbol of love and security for him. What else have you tried your hand at baking? Bread yet? Are you watching Bake-Off, etc.?

Toll House chocolate chip cookies 🍪 😋 😍 WITH!pecans But then! There's the toll House chocolate chip cookies 🍪 with just large chocolate chunks😋

I did give Dishy a hug, I felt so sorry for him. He did go back into his man cave, kept himself to himself for a couple of evenings. But then I got a huge bunch of flowers delivered from him :-) big enough for two vases, my girl cave looks and smells good… only good thing about us being apart is I can secretly add some girly things in without him knowing! Ok I will suggest him going to his gp, he said he hasn’t felt anxious at work but he’s now worried a panic attack could happen, when he’s teaching in front of kids …Soo I think because he doesn’t want this to affect his job he will go. I think his biggest hurdle is going to be his dud. he thinks he should go and visit him. I’m not too sure if that’s a good idea and he should stay away, but if he does go, he shouldn’t go alone? Dishy told me he made the big mistake of trying to talk to his mum about what been going on, how he’s been feeling and he said all she could say was ‘I don’t know why you’re so upset about them splitting up! I’m your mother, not her, you should be planning a visit to come and see me next year’ 🤦‍♀️. And what a great time he would have!? Not. No sympathy or concern, ugh, she makes me angry. He said that the last time he’s telling her anything. I’m planning a pampering weekend, no phones, iPads, laptops allowed. I’m going out to buy things tomorrow, I have a list. Yeah, I’ve noticed that men love bath bombs! bro and dishy are the same. stock up on his fav food, cookie ingredients, going to try brownies too. I have roped in housemate . Dishy probably is going to be quite stubborn to start with but I think if I offer a back/should/neck massage he will give in and enjoy it and by Sunday evening he will be pretty chilled out. My only problem is the landlord has said he’s coming round to do some gardening at the weekend. What he actually does is let himself in the house and comments on any thing that isn’t up to his cleaning standards. If he can’t hold one of us hostage to moan at he will send an email. I don’t want this to stress dishy out if he does do this but housemate said he’d deal with him. Yeah my mum is a very good cook. I got a bread machine which auntie brought me last Christmas and I thought I’m never going to use that… it turns out it makes really nice banana bread! I love bake off :-).

Lils that's great! A hug equals flowers 💐 I hadn't realized that Dishy's mum could cause sore feelings with him. You're right best he not disclose anything about that to her anymore. Bath bombs 💣??? Have fun with your bake off!!

Ha-ha, Scopes, have you got enough cookie on your chocolate? 1. "I did give Dishy a hug" Tick! 2. "But then I got a huge bunch of flowers delivered from him :-) big enough for two vases" Tick! and Tick! (per bunch) 3. "only good thing about us being apart is I can secretly add some girly things in without him knowing! " Only one? Then you ain't thinking hard enough, LOL. You've forgotten our mantra: Lemon into Lemonade. 4. "Ok I will suggest him going to his gp, he said he hasn’t felt anxious at work but he’s now worried a panic attack could happen, when he’s teaching in front of kids …Soo I think because he doesn’t want this to affect his job he will go. " Tick! (He won't need them long, it's more a confidence-boost of a safety-net thus security blanket.) 5. "I think his biggest hurdle is going to be his dud. he thinks he should go and visit him. I’m not too sure if that’s a good idea and he should stay away, but if he does go, he shouldn’t go alone? " It's his call. He might appreciate if you wait out in the car (again, the moral support and confidence raiser)? He's proving he's sensible, I'm sure he'll not force himself. However: parent naturally is the one that contacts the child. So where IS Daddy Dearest, then? 5. "‘I don’t know why you’re so upset about them splitting up! I’m your mother, not her, you should be planning a visit to come and see me next year’" ALL TOGETHER NOW - TO THE TUNE OF OLD MACDONALD!... "Me me me me me me me Me me me me me And Me me me me me me me Me me me me me With a Me me here and a Me me there ...(etc)"

...Stupid woman. I mean - if EVER there were a sentance that would sound perfectly standard, coming out of the mouth of a 9-year-old girl - hers was it.

"He said that the last time he’s telling her anything. " Yup. She had that privilege for free for far too long and wasted it. From now on - make her work for it.

"I’m planning a pampering weekend, no phones, iPads, laptops allowed. I’m going out to buy things tomorrow, I have a list. Yeah, I’ve noticed that men love bath bombs! bro and dishy are the same. stock up on his fav food, cookie ingredients, going to try brownies too. I have roped in housemate . Dishy probably is going to be quite stubborn to start with but I think if I offer a back/should/neck massage he will give in and enjoy it and by Sunday evening he will be pretty chilled out. " Ha-ha, he's going to think he's died and gone to heaven! Actually, you'll be done by now so - how did it go? **************** "What he actually does is let himself in the house " Lily, landlords aren't allowed to do that, it's illegal.

What's banana bread like, toasted? Tip: put seeds in the next batch, they're good for stress.

Pampering weekend was a success. I made sure the house was sparkling clean and there was food/drink when both Dishy and housemate got home. There were cookies, brownies, films. I managed to throw in a couple of Christmas films, both housemate and Dishy protested, both ended up thinking they were alright. Bath with bath bombs and music. Back and shoulder Massage, Dishy fell asleep, I left him for a few hours, apparently it was the best Saturday afternoon nap ever! Face masks neither dishy or housemate liked those - not fussy at all! By Sunday eve we were all relaxed. So Dishy went into the week feeling pretty relaxed. There was one evening when he came home stressed he said he got anxious driving. His step mum is being really supportive, and he has been talking to her quite a lot. he hasn’t said anything about what they’ve spoken about yet, he’s been quiet but not hiding away as much. My mum had also been really good at talking to him, she used to get very anxious when she was younger. She also talked to him about teaching and how he was getting on, I think she was making sure he was liking it, not getting too stressed. Ugh, I dunno where his dud is, at home, all on his own! Not looking forward to when he does make contact. I think dishy is going to be sensible and not visit any time soon now, or at least until after Xmas. My mum insisted he comes to us for Xmas. Banana bread is good toasted, I will remember to put seeds in next time! ************ I know we are concentrating on above topic. Buuuuuut Dud update- he has invited sibs and I round his house for a Christmas weekend, bfs’, gf invited too. First of all, he made it the weekend of my mums birthday (!) and when sis pointed this out to him he said ‘oh I forgot, silly me’ …he bl**dy didn’t, he just wanted to see what would happen. Anyway, it’s the usual, Bro doesn’t want to go, sis does and I don’t want to but would go with sis. I think I might be able to stand being in the same room as him and I’m curious as to what his new life is like etc. I have told sis I’m not staying for the weekend, and it will be for a couple of hours. She wasn’t too happy but she’s gonna have to like it or lump it because my mum can’t take her (understandably doesn’t want to).

Lils sounds like you've got a game plan. Doing a short stay at duds is a good idea! Besides sis is outnumbered, bro doesn't want to go and you don't really want to be there. It's that time of year here in the stateside. I've been delegated to cook a turkey,dressing and mashed potatoes 🥔 😋

Was that for Thanks Giving Scopes? We get a food box, and this week I made a thanks giving meatloaf roast type thing, took ages, didn’t really fancy it, but was good in the end! Don’t know why dud would think we would even want to spend a weekend with him (as if nothing ever happened) or why bfs’ and bros gf would want to even come.

Lils duds smugness and complacency will cost him. Yep,I made a 16 pound turkey and was surprised that it turned out so well. I left most of the leftovers with bro. Not sure if I want to do this next year, it's alot of bother

Hey Lils, Really pleased, the pampering obviously worked, if the second episode DIDN'T send his anxiety-o-ometer above Critical. Excellent work, Agent 001. :-) Can't help noticing, however, that housmate didn't make much contribution, if any - bar company? Did he suddenly decide he was suffering anxiety too? Ha-ha - face masks?! You didn't? HA-HA-HA - Nice one! Is there nothing you can't get those two lads agreeing to do when you put your mind to it? Here, next time make them wear dresses, high-heels and make-up, rofl. And then take a piccie and keep it for future insurance purposes...e.g. if ever they won't tidy up the kitchen or clean the loo, LOL. Still, how did they look after their masks - did they notice a difference? What type were they, anyway - avocado? Or are we talking the peel-off kind? Blokes tend to tolerate the face peels more because it's just like peeling off suburned skin, but more satisfying because they can start pretending they're characters from a horror-film, LOL. Have you ever tried a face-peel mask, Scopes? I think I'm right in saying, the mask removes all blocked pores and blackheads with it (that's right, isn't it Lils?) as well as is addictive fun. I mean - Equality's Equality, isn't it? Here's your chance, LOL. Anyhoo, enough messing about...back to Dishy... "His step mum is being really supportive, and he has been talking to her quite a lot. he hasn’t said anything about what they’ve spoken about yet, he’s been quiet but not hiding away as much. Good. Excellent. Yep - Mum is a verb before it can be a noun. Yeah, again, he's not ready to order everything into complete paragraphs and sentances yet...When I say there's years-worth of filing and re-filing and cross-referencing (of memories and meanings, things that at a younger age got misinterpreted, misunderstood, excused, etc.) to be done in his bonce, I do mean a LOT. If he wasn't trying to learn a new job and office culture on top, I'd say weeks at his age, but, probably more like a couple of months he'll be more back to his usual self on the outside. Christmas might well prove a trigger for more upset. Might not. But I'd have thought so - wouldn't you? But the good news is, he'll feel much safer with you after that lovely 5-star pampering. Not surprised he had such a lovely sleep. He'll probably need much more of it than usual for a while with all that extra, frantic brain activity going on. But it is much easier to do the bulk of one's grieving while asleep at night, that's for sure. I mean, really, Lils, he's kind of just realised that his parents died a long time ago and that he's been having a decades-long relationship with a couple of zombies. I mean - what IS the difference. I can't see it, can you? The people you believe they were, at least underneath, do not exist. He's an orphan. Or would be if it weren't for his lovely step-mum. Frankly, were it me, I'd give her the recognition in asking if I could call her Mum. She clearly sees the opportunity in this event in getting to step into that role more fully (- more fully than time allows when living with a high-maintenance pretend-grown-up!). Yep, their relationship will get stronger now, and that will mean less need to grieve (bar the fact of having been deprived of a normal set of healthy parents). You in fact can point out to Dishy, if ever he raises it, that if a woman can adore him that much, WITHOUT the help of having birthed him or sharing any genes with him, then that SURELY means he is EXTRA lovable. So he's still in YOUR boat: no dad. Maybe suggest asking her over for a Saturday night dinner? "My mum had also been really good at talking to him, she used to get very anxious when she was younger. She also talked to him about teaching and how he was getting on, I think she was making sure he was liking it, not getting too stressed." Ahhh. Your mum is taking him under her wing as well. Here - why don't all three of you have your mums over for dinner? That'd be a fascinating evening, wouldn't it! My, how the conversation and story-telling would flow! Most cathartic, I'm sure. Just an idea. :-) You could call it Survivor's Supper. ...talking of which: housemate obviously can relate. What's his monster story, then - do you know? "Ugh, I dunno where his dud is, at home, all on his own! Not looking forward to when he does make contact. I think dishy is going to be sensible and not visit any time soon now, or at least until after Xmas. My mum insisted he comes to us for Xmas. " Hurrah! (Could stepmum come?) "Banana bread is good toasted, I will remember to put seeds in next time!" Well, it's years...er, decades since I tried it but from what I remember of the taste, as an adult (shut-up), I can imagine seeds going very nicely with it, as well as "serfistikateing" it up. I'm thinking poppy and pumpkins seeds, that sort of thing. I take it you know how to make Eggy Bread? And with Marmite? LOL, damn, made myself hungry. ************ "I know we are concentrating on above topic. Buuuuuut Dud update- he has invited sibs and I round his house for a Christmas weekend, bfs’, gf invited too." For "a" Xmas weekend? What - doesn't want you all over for Xmas Day this year? Or does he just know he doesn't stand a snowball's chance in Hell on that score? "First of all, he made it the weekend of my mums birthday (!) and when sis pointed this out to him he said ‘oh I forgot, silly me’ …he bl**dy didn’t, he just wanted to see what would happen." OH. RIGHT. THAT'S WHY. Should have known. Nothing with them is sacred, is it. And everything's a competition all the way to obsessive, petty revenge. Uck me. I never get used to this crap. (Good!) (I'd be in trouble if I did!) But - bloody hell, he is SUCH A MEAN-MINDED, VENGEFUL LITTLE CHILD. I mean - I'm trying to imagine him running a GPs surgery, AND I CAN'T! He is NOTHING LIKE a male adult. Ugh. He's like your sneaky, snidey, spiteful, weedy, WEASEL type of playground bully, isn't he? Yucky-yuck-yuck. LOL - sorry - had to vent...Better out than in (I should effing cocoa!). Sorry, Lils, every time...I just want to punch your farter in the face.....I can't help it......ooooooh, someone lemmie attim!! "Anyway, it’s the usual, Bro doesn’t want to go, sis does and I don’t want to but would go with sis." Well, then. Own question answered. Cos someone's got to, eh. HOWEVER, I'll bet you any money you like, that the minute he learns it'll be only you with her (or worse, you and Dishy), he'll make some excuse to cancel or 'raincheck'. He knows by now you've completely and utterly got his number, even see right through him, Lils. What a damp squib for a big, acted production of grand delusion. You'll completely ruin his charade and attempted brainwashing and bigging-himself-up and undoubted Future Faking sess. You'll just keep pouring water on it and making him look bad (i.e. he'll poo and you'll point, using a searchlight, LOL). Yeah - damn right, GO! ROFL!! This is part of his Comes Around. Don't forget your clipboard. LOADS of rich study material. In fact, were it me, I'd be tempted to film the whole thing...."you know, for the album...to show everyone what a lovely day we had" (insert halo). Be nice, pleasant, polite (if distant and on the formal side, like you've naturally been doing) only for as long as he is (remember they love causing drama and negativity on spec occasions and/or using the event as an opportunity to air or act-out their (self-deluded) resentments at you). But the minute he starts - do NOT go into shock - give him hell. Take the almighty piss - that hurts the most, trust me. But yup, if you're going as sis's bodyguard then - no-one upsets Baby during her Xmas hols, her kiddie happy time, and gets away with it. He's (supposedly) an adult - and now YOU'RE an adult (but sane and far more mature). So - if he wants it - give it to him. Turn the tables and this time dominate him (don't let him get a word in as you rip piss-take strips off him)....and be completely Over him, completely free of him ever after. I think you're ready. We both know you've been wanting it. It's only natural. Doesn't have to be this occasion, but I do sense the signs are pointing to this being the venue for the usual, path-based, end-of-script Showdown. Your mum can't do that. Nor could Auntie. Bro and Sis - no way. You're the only one he has zero hold over. Just if he starts. You don't start it. Not even remotely. But you damn well finish it if he does. Short, sharp, acerbic piss-take, followed swiftly by a cool, clipped - "...And now we're leaving. Well done you, round of bloody applause, can't even keep things amicable for your youngest daughter for five sodding minutes over bloody Christmas. GET HELP ALREADY, YOU S*DDING WEIRDO!" - slam. Well, you'll do it in your own style, I'm sure. I'm betting Sis would be so awe-struck to see you finally stand right up to him and give him What For, she'd follow you out of there or anywhere! The point is, an opportunity for her to see the difference between a real grown-up (albeit justifiably angry one) with a genuine beef, and someone roughly her own age or even younger(!) in a dad shaped suit. So be ready - in case this IS a gift in disguise. ......called Cloe-shurrrrrrrrr. :-) You won't dread him ever again. You'll be able to see him as a kind of Dementia patient ("yes dear, no dear, of course, yes"), actually harmless (if you're heart's out of it) and pitiful. Any future contact (e.g. rellie events, marriages...), he'll simply feel like a pitiful bore and chore. HOWEVER...safety-check: is he diligently paying his monthly spousal and kid maintenance? No problems on that or any other score? Is the coast clear first, is what I mean? Nothing hanging in the balance? It is, however, just a green light of a suggestion. You'll be ready when you're ready. "I think I might be able to stand being in the same room as him and I’m curious as to what his new life is like etc. I have told sis I’m not staying for the weekend, and it will be for a couple of hours. She wasn’t too happy but she’s gonna have to like it or lump it because my mum can’t take her (understandably doesn’t want to)." Yup. It's called Compromise. The point is more that you're doing her the favour of taking her. And that she IS allowed to go if she wants to. I.e. her wishes are honoured BUT none of you are prepared to include any pretenses about how you understandably and unavoidably feel about him. BECAUSE - he IS...an Emotional Dangerous Man. Well done for volunteering, Lils.

Scopes - yeah, get the caterers in! OR...Next year, make TWO dinners and freeze one. ORRRR...Next year, BROTHER DUZZIT, YAY, MAGIC!.... lol.

(Tsk! *Emotionally* Dangerous) (I hate laptop keyboards!)

PS: being prepared for a showdown is a win-win. USUALLY what happens is that they can sense you've arrived fully-loaded and -cocked, just WAITING for them to give you the excuse you need ("BANG!"), and - funny this - manage to stay on their best behaviour the entire time. Remember: they were slaves to their master(s), then left home believing their only other choice if they never again wanted to be controlled, oppressed and abused, was to from then on forever-amen become THE MASTER, with an iron grip. Those two positions are their only comfort zones. It's EQUALITY they cannot do with another human being. Their twisted programmes can't cope with it, have no clue what to do with it...feels about it how we feel about INEQUALITY. So it is piss-easy IF YOU HAVE THE CONFIDENCE to trip them back into Slave. And liking it. If you refuse to parent them, they'll bully and act-out until you do (i.e. until you Red Mist). BECAUSE THEY'RE ONLY 4 YEARS OLD. You can tell when you've tipped them back into baby position. They suddenly start fawning and wanting to be bestest friends (although, they can't do that one, either....just give them a dog and be done with it. Or just a bone, LOL). First time you manage that is when you realise WHY being controlled via maniplaton and slight of hand s called a Confidence Trick. Anyhoo, I'll shut-up and let you answer.

Soulmate my bro's significant other had a triple bypass about a month ago. He usually cooks up a Thanksgiving dinner that won't quit. I'm sure next year he'll be back in business. He's doing great 👍

Hey, Housemate didn’t really make much of a contribution, he did some cooking, kept things tidy, and that was about it. Maybe he is anxious and wanted to join in more. They were peeling face masks for men, thought Dishy and Housemate would be more willing to do it if it was fun. Yeah meant to be good for pours and black heads, Dishy did comment quite a lot on how soft his face was after. I think Christmas is quite triggering for dishy, going to keep this in mind! He doesn’t seem that interested but maybe that’s because it brings lots up lot of memories. I’m wondering now if it’s the reason for another panic attack he had at the weekend. He wanted to go shopping. I was thinking is this too soon, but I know he’s trying to push himself. Turned out not to be a good idea, as soon as we stepped into the shopping centre he went all tense but I could see he was trying distract himself. This seemed to work for a bit but then while queuing to pay for something in a shop he just said to be needed to leave and we were out of there pdq! When we did get outside he seemed to calm down. Thankfully he had drs appointment this week. he’s got meds and talking therapy, which I didn’t think he’d do. But he said he may as well try everything. I think Dishy will ask his step mum if he can call her mum. I think he should, then it will feel like he actually has a parent. Ive heard him call her ‘mum’ accidentally but he went back to calling her by her name. Ohh like the idea of getting the mums together! I will see if I can arrange that. That would be really interesting! I think my mum and Dishy’s step mum will get on really well. Then she could come to us for Christmas. I have meet both of housemates parents, both very reserved. I got the feeling if housemates mum had been on her own she might of been more talkative. Don’t really know too much about housemates childhood etc, he’s not really said anything. He likes to come across to others as very positive, happy and confident but I don’t think that’s always the case. I’m waiting for him to say more.. ******************* Dud usually likes to work around Christmas, so then he can be smug and brag to anyone who will listen. Theres no way I’d spend Christmas with him, I don’t think even sis would. Bro is now thinking about coming, don’t know why he changed his mind. he asked if dishy was coming, but I’m not too sure. I think I am ready to stand up to him if he starts anything. He was around when I was home in the half term doing biz, and I tolerated him each time. I surprised myself! Where as at the beginning of year, in lockdown, when he came round to see sis, just him being in the garden made me anxious. Maybe covid will get in the way and we won’t be able to go 🤞🏻. yeah I can see more of the bully and sneaky side of dud, when I think back. Bro definitely suffered a lot more then me, but dud and I clashed a lot. there was one time when we were on holiday, (auntie and cousins were there too) and he was being really annoying filming everyone. He was asked to stop but didn’t. Couldn’t understand that not everyone likes being filmed. Anyway We were at a theme park , and sis wanted to do go on this little kids ride, she was about 5. Dud decided I was going to take her on it, no one else, and I really didn’t want to. He dragged it out for the whole day, so sis started whinging and so that he could pressure on me. In the end he practically shoved me in the queue with sis, and then whilst we were on the ride he was filming us! I was so angry, got off the ride, and walked straight over to him, shoved him (was a bit of a feisty preteen :-)),went to block the camcorder and knocked it out of his hand. it fell onto the ground, oops! I then hid behind auntie, who had a go at dud telling him he deserved it. He did manage to get me on my own later and tell me off. So yeah he’s always been an arsehole. Haha, I saw dud try to run the surgery, and he did a sh*t job. There were a couple practice managers’ who tried to come in and run the surgery, they didn’t stay long because of him! He wasn’t popular with the staff either, most were intimidated by him. I’ve also been behind the reception (filing for free, zzz) where patients have come out from an appointment with dud and complained about him to the reception staff, mainly calling him names. That was always entertaining :-D. They probably had a big party when he left.

Lils sounds like you've got a full plate there. I can understand Dishy's feelings with the holidays coming up. Hopefully bro will change his mind

Hey guys, Sorry for the absence. First the internet 'kept sticking' for days, then it lost my reply as I posted, and I didn't evem get tje chance to re-write it as next day I came down with a bad sinus cold (or mild sinus flu?). Still quite dicky but I've dosed myself up, so... Lils, 1. LOL, no I was being sarcastic about why housemate hadn't done enough of the graft when he was supposed to be Helper B. 2. If bro is saying MAYBE then straight away asking whether Dishy will be there then what he's basically saying is, he'll go if Dishy goes, it0s Dishy he wants to see, and will put up with Dud to do so (albeit, there'll undoubtedly be morbid curiosity in the mix). My, that was a successful role-modelling weekend, then! (PS: might be a nice, much-needed ego-boost for Dishy, to know he's impressed your brother so much he's now a fan?) 3. Re the semi-anxiety attack: Well, that's alright, then. At least the anxiety-o-meter will be tempered next time by a total sense of safety in the knowledge that when he basically says - Stop the car, I'm going to puke! - you waste no time in doing so (well done!). A reliable coping method and one that makes making an effort to stay in the store longer and longer each trip, no threat. I note it was milder, though. That'll have been the pampering weekend (well done again!) 4. Yeah, Xmas tends to be a trigger for everyone in his sort of situation. I suggest you assure him that if he feels bad and anxious at your house, he can take Time Out in your room and everyone will understand. Again, take the pressure off. 5. "hankfully he had drs appointment this week. he’s got meds and talking therapy, which I didn’t think he’d do. But he said he may as well try everything. " Now there's someone who refuses to sit back and leave it to life/fate to row his little boat (Survivor tick!). Remind him to do himself, only what he's capable of and to take each day as it comes. If he under- or over-contributes, Fate won't like it. He'll also need to have respect for his grief waves, the fact they're like a rollercoaster....up one day, down the next (or whatever sequence) - and FEEL FREE to flop or bow-out whenever he needs to, but as soon as good days presents themselves, go for it and make as much hay as he can while the sun shines. Remember, a large part of the pain is caused by brain overload. One does not need to apologise for "being lazy" if, in fact, one is just undetectably busy under a mountain of mental filing and re-filing (and putting mental floors that got whipped away, back!). They're not lazy, they're overworked and sometimes to the extent of bodily 'paralysis' (energy being monopolised by the mind) because of it. Depends... depends on the individual and the weight of workload. So, has his treatment started? 6. She's already his mum, she just doesn't yet have the title - berbom! I'm sure he will once he's ready, and I'm sure she'll be utterly thrilled. 7. "I think my mum and Dishy’s step mum will get on really well." God, yes! 8. Well, housemate seems to find it easy to empathise with Dishy, doesn't he. But maybe, going by what you've described, his dad's just somewhat over-domineering (that would be enough to allow him to relate). 9. "I think I am ready to stand up to him if he starts anything. He was around when I was home in the half term doing biz, and I tolerated him each time. I surprised myself! Where as at the beginning of year, in lockdown, when he came round to see sis, just him being in the garden made me anxious. Maybe covid will get in the way and we won’t be able to go 🤞🏻." To answer your question - they get you when you're down (/overloaded/distracted) and they get to you when you're down. In a Contact Unavoidable situation such as yours, at least avoid them on days when you're vulnerable in any way. But if you, sis, bro AND Dishy all go - he'll have to be on his best Fake Best behaviour or he could find himself shown-up and out-numbered (cowards as well as unfair players). But - be civil and ladylike about any confrontation with him (unless it's so bad you have to storm out like I described). What you want is sis seeing you doing nothing wrong or offensive, just merely and purely defending yourself/reality. Pure in content, pure in style of delivery. Shine MORE than usual and his tarnish will come that much more to the witnessable fore - not to mention which of you is the adult and which, the mental-case kid (just with skills). HE is...because he makes the childish choice-into-habit to FUNCTION like one. So remember he's just a giant-sized toddler and don't be intimidated. (On the other hand, never be alone with him in case he throws his equally giant-sized Hotwheel at you). Show him up, IOW. But do remember that Christmas is for kids and lil sis (and half of bro) are still of an age where they will want as happy and fun (er - ish) as possible a season, including this visit. In which case, there's always this tack - said in front of everyone in response to any untowardness on his part: 'Could I speak to you in private, please - in the kitchen?'. They don't like requests to sit opposite the crystal-clear glass table rather than the wooden one with the darkest of dark underneathy so they tend to try to make a joke out of it or in whatever else slimy way, start backpedalling like crazy or changing the subject. I find this well-worn statement is a good energy-saver (said dryly and sarcastically) - "Oh, really? Well, for someone who claims he WASN'T being an X, you don't half do a convincing impression." Or pretend you're Jim Carey and do his AAAAALRIGHTY, THEN! Lemons into Lemonade - no-one ever said you can't have FUN defending oneself (by Out-Narcing the Narc, did they)? My personal faves, when apropos, because the person's persisting or being especially ridiculous, is to pull down my bottom lids whilst pushing my nose up, and pushing my tongue slightly into my bottom inner lip as I say - "...Yeah, right... Thisth isth my I REALLY BELIEVE YOU fathce". (I laugh even if they don't, LOL) and, singing Mares Eat Oats (do you know it?) - because it sounds too convincingly like a nonsense song, i.e. WORD SALAD. Just in case, here are the seeming lyrics... Marezy-dotes 'n dozey-dotes An' lit-tle lammmzie-tivey A-kiddle-ee tivey-too Woul-dn't you? (Mares eat oats and Does eat oats And little Lambs eat ivy A Kid'll eat ivy too Wouldn't you?) And I sing the last line somewhat 'in their face'. (Haha, now you have even more idea about why Narcs hate me) (and thank God they do, etc.). Just do it in a very chilled, laid-back-sassy, I'm Being Silly Because It's Silly Season(and because I'm never gonna get any sense out of you anyway, so why bother being the sane one), fashion, mild enough not to trigger full-blown Narc Injury, and instead have him more worried about coming across as lacking the sense of humour and the maturity enough to take it if he's gonna dish it out to begin with, and an adult so weak that he feels threatened by his own daughter's UNDERSTANDABLE skepticism and sense of relational defeat towards him (putting it mildly). Or just let all or any of it go 'over your head' i.e. pretend not to have heard or noticed the digs or whatever...play dumb but where it's obvious you're just ignoring his tediousness. Just blank every little dig or annoyingly irrational comment. ...Yawn....Cannot Be Arsed (You're Just Boring). Or be a surfer dude type of bodyguard (narc slayer) by switching between ALL tactics as the ever-flowing waves dictate! Wear your white coat and clipboard, IOW. He's got a camera? You've got a whole laboratory!...replete with cage. ...For only you have nothing left to lose (if sis sees that he was the one who started it). But, yes, this scenario could all become a moot point, Covid depending. Still, it's worth knowing - For When. )Plus I'm in a rambly mood, what can I say? LOL) There again, maybe not. I hear that Omicron catches more easily but is considerably less severe... symptomatically mild, even? But it WOULD, still, be disruptive to the working world and economy. It IS still the dreaded Flu...and any of us always DID need a good two weeks off work AT LEAST with most (genuine) flu bugs, did we not? PS: latest breaking news on the Beeb is that S Africa's number of Omicron cases has dropped considerably, including in severity of symptoms. 10. "Couldn’t undeerstand that not everyone likes being filmed" Well - going by all evidence, we can at least say: certainly not by HIM, anyway! But, nah, Sociopaths of his ripe age can understand alright, they just don't care, especially not when what they want clashes with what the majority want or with the other person's rights, etc. Weak to No Boundaries. By his age, they've trampled over boundaries too many times, to the point where, now, not only what they want trumps everything and everyone, but who gives a stuff if they hurt someone in the process. They grab it like that greedy, naughty, spoiled baby (within an adult sized body), no matter who gets crushed in their wake, and then manufacture reasons or excuses for their behaviour afterwards. Their (er) minds can only deal with the Here & Now. Afterwards/Consequences don't occur to them until it ticks round into Now. Because they don't care. So who cares. But their manipulative, conniving skill gets a huge leg-up from the fact that the person they're fabricating to, WANTS OR NEEDS to believe them. If you don't need or rate them, their lies sound immature, unrealistic, implausible, against concrete evidence, Alice-In-Wonderland-ish, against humanity!, outraging, shocking, infuriating, etc... you can spot every shenannigan...and they just sound slightly BUT SUFFICIENTLY crazy. (That - not caring (+ not caring that they don't care or no longer having a care befall them, being that incredibly non-cooperative, non-team-playing), remember, is one of the reasons why they're considered partially (human-interactively) fruit-loopy. But here's the bad news, Lils. If your dad basically behaved like an obsessed tabloid photographer-filmographer for too much of the time on too many (or all family) occasions for yours and everyone else's liking then - sorry, but it may well be that he was using the footage as material by which to Triangulate another woman. It's very common. Including pasting it all over Facebook. So now I'm seriously considering that his recent-past mistress was not his first. Depends. Depends on the last time he last did that. ? "So yeah he’s always been an arsehole." Totally emotionally-manipulative, power-abusing, etc., to the point of Harrassment and Coercion, that was. Plus an OBSESSIVE need to make you do as he wanted. No wonder you lost it and attacked him. ...Plus his viewing and treating you as his mere PROP - as his possession, rather than someone with their own mind and feelings, WHOM THEY LOVE THUS WOULD - you'd expect - RATHER NOT UPSET, LET ALONE SO NEEDLESSLY, and the right to decide in such a circumstance whether or not they want to ride a baby ride (humiliating at your age back then) and in so doing, be made to play PARENT (when you were there to have carefree fun), all because he's too busy playing Film Director. PS: Being obsessed with filming everything can be a way to disassociate and stay distant thus safely unbondable by the otherwise bonding family outing. (If you're observing then you're not really participating. Plus your eyes and eye-contact are unavailable.) That it annoyed was just a juicy bonus into handy future tool, including what he'd do in retaliation to the fact you hadn't cooperated or not for long enough. So - although it's not his fault he was messed-up, originally - he's more than an arsehole. I've met his type plenty of times. He's a Vulnerable (pretend underdog or meek n mild), which they say means Covert but actually is just a PREFERRED modus operandum and meanwhile they're perfectly capable of being overt-grandiose-aggressive if they want to or have to. So they're normally covert-"victim"-passive aggressive - probably simply because that's the style of interacting and functioning that worked consistently-successfully on their family or whomever, and the best/fastest, without detection, in their bid to gain a right or to avoid hassle--abuse, and/or because the abuse rendered them constantly too exhausted (equals "lazy") to risk asking openly, nicely, only to have to yet again another long verbal onslaught or marathon debate...made to work too hard again. (But that is the definition of giving in...rolling over...into LaLa Land...... so really, staying healthy is about strength of mind enough to resist the brainwashing, the attempt to make you a mini-them (ugh).) First it would have been for purely survival reasons - a way to navigate the dysfunctional family jungle and get results, their needs met, but - with some, the power can too easily go to their head, they love being whatever type of manipulator, seeing it as the easy life, feeling very clever, repeat it, rely on it, then can't resort to Normal... they never get to discard their childish battlegear for a new, more sophisticated and considerate, grown-up one as they pass over the bridge, through the Teenage gate into Adultville .... and - Add enough stress and pressure to their life and suddenly we see how crippled and bitterly furious their inner animal is. Anyway, before I go off on one - I'll take it that you meant he was an arsehole who, given enough duress and pressure (whatever it was..we still don't know, do we), turned out to be a hidden (or very motivated?) Narcissist to point of Personalality Disordered who, despite his best efforts to keep his "beer-belly" sucked in, year after year, while that status and situation suited him - the minute it no longer did, he ceased sucking-in altogether, revealing more than just a beer belly - an actual deformity that disqualified him from going out and getting himself a mate (and mating), LET ALONE one as high quality as your mother? I agree. Still, at least his power tool was a video camera, not one of Rod Hull's Emu puppets! LOL "How to accost or attack someone and get away with it" or what! (See Rod Hull & Emu on Parkinson, on youtube, if you don't know what I'm talking about). Re your last para: There we go then - case closed. Anyhoo, I'm sofa bound at the mo if you're available to respond by tonight? But no worries otherwise, I'm happy to wait for your next window. PS Scopes: Ahh. Well, good on you for pitching in! You're a good brother.

Put it another way, Lils. Dud's Overt narcissism, displayed even at work but only ever to the degree of getting considered by all as fa mere Arsehole, is most likely his smokescreen for the more serious Covert stuff meanwhile going on under the table.

And I was just thinking about dropping in. Soulmate beat me to it 😁

Hey, ah sorry, I tried to reply a few times but it didn’t happen ! we are off to duds tomorrow (ugh) so I’ll update afterwards.

Lils will it be a short visit to duds?

Hey, We were there longer then I thought I we would, not because dud was be. He started off very fake nice, towards everyone but me. He hugged bro and sis and shook Dishy’s hand then barely said hello to me. He said it quietly but looked away. Then he hardly engaged with me, which was fine by me because I stood back and observed . His gf was there and he introduced us to her, she wasn’t that interest in meeting us. she didn’t stay long either, wasn’t the friendliest person! He was being affectionate too, calling sis ‘my Angel’ (she’s far from an Angel!) and bro and dishy ‘Dude’, his gf ‘babe’ ugh. he didn’t call me anything, thankfully. He only does this when other people are around. He gave sis her Christmas present, a new phone, and he said he didn’t get me or bro anything because he didn’t know what we wanted. If he had I would of taken it to a charity shop anyway, but bro looked disappointed though. Then it became clear why dud was being distant with me because he said he was very disappointed that weren’t staying the weekend. Bro was quite straightforward with and told him he needed to wait until we were all comfortable. Instead of just accepting it, dud had a bit of a rant, wanted to take us up stairs and show us ‘our rooms’ and the effort he had gone to, to make them nice for us. Nobody moved or said anything. So he sulked for a bit then said that he hasn’t brought any food because he didn’t think we’d be there long enough (again looking at me). We were all hungry so he suggested a walk to his favourite cafe, which I didn’t think was a bad idea to get out of his house. I could also see that dishy was looking a bit anxious and he was the first to move. On the way to the cafe I was stuck with sis who was talking to me about her bf and mum (she doesn’t like him, another story). She didn’t want dud to hear so we’re quite far behind. She had a lot to say 😬. Dud, dishy and bro were walking ahead, got to the cafe waaaay before me and sis. And there was an incident (I’m a bit annoyed I missed it) in the cafe where a staff member got his order wrong (uh oh) and dud shouted at the poor person ‘that’s why people like you work in a cafe, you can’t even get a simple order right!”. Bro was really embarrassed and said told him to shut up and not to be so narrowed minded and dishy backed bro up and told dud he didn’t need to be rude about it, it was a mistake they were sorting it out, and they probably just misheard him. When sis and I got there bro asked me if we could leave as soon as we were finished because he didn’t want to be around dud anymore and he told me what had happened. I was hangry and was like ffs! Dud who got angry and told bro he was a “very over sensitive little boy” and bro got up and walked off … In the wrong direction we had walked in (he doesn’t have a very good sense of direction ) but I found him. I debated having words with dud when we got back to his house but like bro I just wanted to get away from him. We went back to my mums to recover (I’m so pleased she’s normal!) and stayed the night. Then yesterday (it’s always the next day) I felt a bit stressed which is why it’s taken me today to write this. Anyway pleased we got that out of the way because I didn’t want to go so close to Christmas. ****************************** There is a waiting list for talking therapy for dishy, he's had an assessment and been told CBT will help him. He seems to be doing quite well on the meds though and he’s got the head space. But I think he’s still going to need some space around Christmas so I will tell him it’s fine if he wants to be by himself for a bit. He wasn’t quite being a bit grumpy and argumentative but I think was cutting back on coffee, both his gp, talking therapy person told he should cut back (he’s a bit of a coffee snob) no good for anxiety. Yeah housemate does seem to be able to empathise with dishy. I have arranged for the mums to come round for dinner, this week, thought it would be be something nice to look forward too after dud! Housemates mum is apparently really looking forward to it and can’t wait. Then housemate said she doesn’t get to social very much. Hmm. I’m just going to wait and see what is said :-).

A gift card would've been nice. I know a gift card is so impersonal when it comes to gifts 🎁 So duds gf isn't the the friendliest person. Well with dud that goes without saying.

Hey scopes, Yep you’re right a gift card probably would of been nice. Bro did tell dud he could of picked something. Dishy insisted on buying dud a bottle of wine (Was cheap either, I did tell him not to bother) and when we got to duds he forgot and left it the car. Intentionally or not I don’t know! So when dud said he didn’t get me and bro a present dishy said quietly to me ‘well he’s not getting that bottle of wine!’. We had it last night when the mums came round 🙂. He was already annoyed that dud hardly said hello to me. I have told him I don’t see dud as a parent anymore just a very sick man who I rarely visit/see. I want to go no contact eventually.

Lils you know I'd give you a gift 🎁 card if I could to make your Christmas 🎄 brighter

Aww thanks Scopes ☺️

Lils MERRY CHRISTMAS 🤶 🎄

Merry Christmas 🎁🎄

Lils hopefully your having a happy new year 🎉

Happy New Year Lils, Scopes! I'm so sorry I didn't get to say Happy Xmas, too much going on AND not exactly a happy bunny because, thanks to the costs and hassle of flying during this pandemic, and his having got a new job, my son and I couldn't be together at Xmas, on top of not being able to have him fly out on a frequent basis like we thought would be the case, e.g. long weekends. (How ever did people cope before phones, that's what I want to know!) So this year, Christmas was moreover something to get through and out of the way. Plus, the Spanish take protecting against COVID very seriously (we're reverting to masks outdoors again) (aaaargh!...non-stop face saunas again), so here it still feels like lockdown, especially now it's Winter, and with no tourists. Plus, all anyone is doing, now, (and not just in Europe) is extending or working on their houses (for something to do!), meaning, contractors and supplies take ages to become free (my regular one needs an op before he can get back to work...enter long bloody waiting list, even for private, enter bang goes my schedule). Luckily I've made some truly fantastic friends, real diamonds, intelligent and great fun with it, so the social side (albeit mostly at each other's houses, on the nayas (verandahs)), is fine. Other newbies are saying the same, that thanks to Brexit and Covid, the dream is no longer the dream. quote/unquote. Like, one couple are having to live in a tiny caravan because the gorgeous house they bought STILL hasn't been connected to the gas supply, meaning, no heating or hot water, freezing-cold house (way colder than when you leave your heating off for a day or two...it's incremental). Think I've had enough of this limbo and restrictions....I know all my friends both here and in YUK have. Are you two the same? Feeling like the drip-drip of this climate is finally getting to you? Anyhoo...thanks for the quick whinge, haha - feel free to whinge back - and let me catch up...

(Tsk! Lost the first post) 1. "He started off very fake nice, towards everyone but me. He hugged bro and sis and shook Dishy’s hand then barely said hello to me. He said it quietly but looked away. Then he hardly engaged with me, which was fine by me because I stood back and observed ." Good opportunism, Lils! "His gf was there and he introduced us to her, she wasn’t that interest in meeting us. she didn’t stay long either, wasn’t the friendliest person!" 2. He's demonised you all - while painting himself the victim. More to the point - she's automatically believed him, despite having heard only one side (thk eff she's not a magistrate!) and NOT EVEN INTELLIGENT ENOUGH to be interested enough to hang around to gauge whether your (plural) behaviour even GELS with his fairy story descriptions of you. She's a push-over. God help her. Still, it's no surprise he rejected titanium (mum) for rice pudding...means he'll get away with things and not lose every verbal argument (like he ought). 3. Correct me if I'm wrong but - I'm sure you would have said if his gf was going to be there AT ALL - or that he still had one or had a new one - so it appears he didn't even give you lot any courtesy or consideration of your rights and feelings...indeed, did the 100% opposite and foisted her and what she symbolises onto you (insult, hurt, guilt over being plonked into a position of being disloyal to your mum). It would have affected lil sis and bro the worst, in that order. Or bro first if he's the really mum-protective type (most lads in his position are). 4. "He was being affectionate too, calling sis ‘my Angel’ (she’s far from an Angel!) and bro and dishy ‘Dude’, his gf ‘babe’ ugh. he didn’t call me anything, thankfully. He only does this when other people are around. " That won't last. She's getting older and bolder, forming her own opinions and decisions....soon to become one of the most passionate, long-lasting arguers known to man, called, The Teenager. The minute she disagrees with anything that threatens or disproves his opinions/world view.... well - THEY WILL CLASH THE WORST. 5. "He gave sis her Christmas present, a new phone, and he said he didn’t get me or bro anything because he didn’t know what we wanted." NO, it's him punishing you both. For not rolling over and being his fan, regardless of his crimes and lack of closure-withholding. 6. "If he had I would of taken it to a charity shop anyway, but bro looked disappointed though." Yep. But at least it gave him too little to lose in order to say this: 5. "Then it became clear why dud was being distant with me because he said he was very disappointed that weren’t staying the weekend. Bro was quite straightforward with and told him he needed to wait until we were all comfortable." What an incredibly maturely- and truthfully-put statement! That was impressively masterly, Lils! 6. "Instead of just accepting it, dud had a bit of a rant, wanted to take us up stairs and show us ‘our rooms’ and the effort he had gone to, to make them nice for us." Oh god, he's so thick. He just does not - or stupidly refuses to - have any concept of what things have been like for you three! 7. "Nobody moved or said anything." WONDERFUL SHOW OF SOLIDARITY - GOLD STAR EVERYBODY! 8. "So he sulked for a bit" ...like a 4-year-old, foiled toddler. (SERIOUSLY - sulking is supposed to exclusively be part of toddlerdom!) Only 'a bit' though...because he was outnumbered, had no socket to plug in his electric violin. 9. "then said that he hasn’t brought any food because he didn’t think we’d be there long enough (again looking at me)." Right.... So he expected you to be spending the whole weekend yet hadn't even got any shopping in in preparation...not even for a light lunch or tea. Yeah, those gel. Not. Already, this is nothing but pure nonsense and inanity on his part, and I'm not even halfway in. It literally is like the Mad Hatter's Tea Party (hostile version). 10. "We were all hungry so he suggested a walk to his favourite cafe, which I didn’t think was a bad idea to get out of his house. I could also see that dishy was looking a bit anxious and he was the first to move." I'm not reading ahead. So at this point, I'm wondering whether getting you to that cafe was his agenda and why no food (aside from creating the opportunity to blame and demonise you, of course (fail)). 11. Dud was triggering Dishy....sounding like one or both of his parents. Well, it's a good job I wasn't there. I'd have been like Spock with a stuck record: "Cut the crap....cut the crap....cut the crap...". OR laughing hysterically whilst pointing at him. Always depends on my mood at the time, lol. Seriously - if I was new and read this post in isolation, I'd assume you were telling about your visit to your dementia-ed father in his nursing home. Seriously. So - again - THE perfect response by bro... because unless dud behaves better, including making any sense, none of you ARE going to feel comfortable enough! He forced the ball firmly back into dud's court AND RAISED THE NET...DOUBLED IT'S HEIGHT! (Please give him a high five from 'just one of your friends') 12. "On the way to the cafe I was stuck with sis who was talking to me about her bf and mum (she doesn’t like him, another story). She didn’t want dud to hear" How revealing. "so we’re quite far behind. She had a lot to say 😬." Bet dud thought she was talking about him. 13 (how fitting). "Dud, dishy and bro were walking ahead, got to the cafe waaaay before me and sis. And there was an incident (I’m a bit annoyed I missed it) in the cafe where a staff member got his order wrong (uh oh) and dud shouted at the poor person ‘that’s why people like you work in a cafe, you can’t even get a simple order right!”." BINGO! One of the most major Red Flag behaviours exclusive to the narcissistic personality disordered. He takes his petty bad feeling/resentment (that he brings on himself) on someone else and especially someone "LOWLIER" whom he doesn't need as an everyday tool. He would talk down to them anyway, but if he needed to puke out excess toxicity/rage.... do it on the waiter, taxi-driver, better yet any woman... 14. "Bro was really embarrassed and said told him to shut up and not to be so narrowed minded and dishy backed bro up and told dud he didn’t need to be rude about it, it was a mistake they were sorting it out, and they probably just misheard him." OOOOH. I say. How heroic! And what teamwork! (TWO high fives!) Bro and Dishy...Dishy and Bro - eh? Or do I mean Batman & Robin. :-) I love Dishy, Lils. And I thank Up There for giving your bro a brilliant role-model in really-big brother format. And seeing bro trying to 'pair up' with Dishy will, amongst other things, have subconsciously encouraged lil sis to pair-up with you (hence the confiding). Not to mention the automatic show of group and truth solidarity up there! Also, the confiding woman-to-woman is a womanly need. Sis needs womanly support nowadays....won't be needing a dad so much.....aaaand enter the inevitable. With you two shining, Dud will more easily AND more rapidly be seen as seriously tarnished. ...Nope, not long now until the angel throws OFF that isolation cloak called Golden Child. 15. "When sis and I got there bro asked me if we could leave as soon as we were finished because he didn’t want to be around dud anymore and he told me what had happened. I was hangry and was like ffs! Dud who got angry and told bro he was a “very over sensitive little boy”" So?? (Ignoring the Little Boy bit - ) So RESPOND to your child and however he is and TREAT HIM SENSITIVELY, THEN, YOU BEEP FROM HELL!!! Who'd want an insensitive person in their lives, anyway?! Sensitivity (along with cautiousness and curiosity, etc.) and its degree is a sign of intelligence and its degree. And it's wonderful. Your brother reacted perfectly normally. (So he's now slime-free. then? :-)) But it's all just the usual "narchitypal" dialogue as per their condition's meagre script. I expect EVERYONE that dares justifiably criticise his behaviour is "too" or "over-sensitive". "and bro got up and walked off … " I know you were hungry but - YESSSS! GOLD STAR! "In the wrong direction we had walked in (he doesn’t have a very good sense of direction )" HAHAHA! Brilliant. ORRRR he was that rattled? 16. "but I found him.......I debated having words with dud when we got back to his house but like bro I just wanted to get away from him." Normal healthy reactions and responses again noted, i.e. CONSISTENTLY healthy as individuals and a tight group. :-) And there is NOTHING to beat calmly and digifiedly, prematurely exiting the very bad smell. Actions, ACTIONS, yes? "We went back to my mums to recover (I’m so pleased she’s normal!)" SO ARE ALL OF US!!! "and stayed the night. Then yesterday (it’s always the next day) I felt a bit stressed which is why it’s taken me today to write this. " Well, then, you've bounced back REALLY fast! It normally takes people a good 3 days at least! And it used to take you that or weeks, remember? (Ta-daaaa) Anyway... The reason dud dealt a further stab to bro was probably 2 for the price of 1, i.e. you wouldn't get to eat when already you were over-hungry. HE thought this: Having them on my territory isn't working, when I am bursting to passive-aggressively punish them and get them back on their leashes... So if In Private isn't working, let's (pretend we have no food so as to) try IN PUBLIC where I'll bet they won't dare "cause a scene" so will be my captives via social inhibition (fail). "Anyway pleased we got that out of the way because I didn’t want to go so close to Christmas." Ah! Almost a snap, then! You wanted to get the day out of the way because you were spending it with your (tell it like it is) semi-lunatic, childish, anti-social sperm-donor, which hurt, whilst, conversely, my grown child (and I) wanted the day we were supposed to be together out of the way because we COULDN'T be together and it hurt (oh boy did it!!!). However, at least you and yours all have a fantastic, future dinner-party anecdote that'll have them rolling in the aisles or at least yelling NO WAYYYYYY. ****************************** "There is a waiting list for talking therapy for dishy, he's had an assessment and been told CBT will help him. He seems to be doing quite well on the meds though and he’s got the head space. But I think he’s still going to need some space around Christmas so I will tell him it’s fine if he wants to be by himself for a bit. He wasn’t quite being a bit grumpy and argumentative but I think was cutting back on coffee, both his gp, talking therapy person told he should cut back (he’s a bit of a coffee snob) no good for anxiety." Depends on the individual, really, but obviously it's good to at least try eliminating it from the enquiry first. "Yeah housemate does seem to be able to empathise with dishy. I have arranged for the mums to come round for dinner, this week, thought it would be be something nice to look forward too after dud! Housemates mum is apparently really looking forward to it and can’t wait. Then housemate said she doesn’t get to social very much. Hmm." I second that Hmmmm, Lils. "I’m just going to wait and see what is said :-)." It's happened already, hasn't it. Looking forward to your reportage, in that case! PS: Bloody good post, missus!

PPS: suggest Dishy try one heaped spoonful of Bovril in a mug of hot water (never too hot, that damages your oesophagus). Not only is it delicious as a drink but then he gets the complex B vits and minerals that are good for anxiety and depression (not to mention raising his testosterone so that he can get from Mew, back to indignant anger then revulsion). Has his eating been affected? And in what ways?

PPPwhateverS: When you've got a spare mo: So why does sis no longer like her bf and his mother?

Oh, and - if you asked bro, sis and Dishy what their overriding feelings are, about that visit, and whether the following covers it, let's see if it hits their spot: Painfully Tedious. ? And then add: Yet somehow mobidly fascinating. ?

Soulmate I can totally relate with your situation. Although I'm a retiree of a major airline I've given up on travel. As far as home repairs, I need a new roof since our last big storm in July. Last year I had roofers knocking at my door almost every week. This year I can't get one to commit solid to save my ass. And! They want 12k to replace the roof. That's been the cheapest estimate so far. Other than that getting by with higher prices like everyone else. HI Lils 👋

Oh, forgot to say: "So - again - THE perfect response by bro... because unless dud behaves better, including making any sense, none of you ARE going to feel comfortable enough! He forced the ball firmly back into dud's court AND RAISED THE NET...DOUBLED IT'S HEIGHT!" This is what bro did. Ask him if he KNEW what he doing or whether it just came naturally... He said to the Master: Behave yourself better The Master thought... HE doesn't get to tell ME what to do. If I want to behave badly, I WILL! I´ll give HIM 'behave better!...little upstart, who does he think he is!" And so he flogged the restaurant employee in front of "the dudes" who, he hoped, wouldn't be so brave in front of people (fail). PROTECTING THEIR EGOS FROM ANYTHING THAT THREATENS THEIR "SUPERIOR" AND "POWER" POSITION OVER YOU WILL ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS COME FIRST. YOU COULD BE DANGLING FROM A CLIFF, BEGGING FOR RESCUE, BUT IF YOU'VE INSULTED THEM RECENTLY OR EVER, REMINDING YOU OF THEIR POWER OVER YOU IS FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOU FALLING TO THEIR DEATH. IT WOULD EVEN OUT-RANK SAVING THEMSELVES FROM FALLING OFF A CLIFF TO THEIR DEATH. They are - I repeat - (hypersentitive) egos on legs. Tell them not to do something or stop doing something - when you're supposed to be the one who TAKES orders (from them) - and they'll deliberately or reflexively do the very opposite. Whether consciously aware of what he was so smoothly doing or not - your bro has got amazing emotional intelligence. My compliments to the chefs (your mum AND YOU).

Hey Scopes! "Soulmate I can totally relate with your situation. Although I'm a retiree of a major airline I've given up on travel. As far as home repairs, I need a new roof since our last big storm in July. Last year I had roofers knocking at my door almost every week. This year I can't get one to commit solid to save my ass. And! They want 12k to replace the roof. That's been the cheapest estimate so far. Other than that getting by with higher prices like everyone else. " Other than the problem being the roof specifically - SNAP!- Exact mirror of my situation! (Just while I mention it...Snap means Same/Identical, btw, not Damn like most Americans apparently think. Please start spreading its proper usage around for me? Ta, mush!)

You mean snap? Or ta,mush?

I think I get what you mean 😏 Snap!

Hi, Oh no Soulmate that’s rubbish you couldn’t spend Christmas with your son. Stupid pandemic. Christmas felt really hectic this year, everyone came round auntie, fiancé, cousins and kids. Just didn’t feel very Christmassy, maybe I was feeling a bit peaky, on boxing I was ill with a heavy cold ugh, only just starting to feeling better. Sort of. Was convinced it was covid but each test I did was negative. Lots of uni friends had covid over Christmas. Some didn’t even go home because they they were worried they’d pick up covid travelling or didn’t want to risk making family members ill. Thank god for friends! There was a few uni friend Skype calls over Christmas to make sure no one was too lonely. It doesn’t seem to be getting better. A lot of uni is still online atm, so it’s going to be a bit quiet and a bit boring for a while… ******************* dud called my mum to tell her ‘his side of the story’ about our visit. She said she was interested in what lies he had come up with. He told her he was very disappointed with how it went. He was sure sis was very upset because I did what bro wanted and we left so abruptly. He went on and on about how much he wanted us to stay. And he is trying very hard to build up relationships with me and bro again but it seems we don’t want to. I didn’t speak to him the whole time and made it clear I didn’t want to be anywhere near him. He told my mum he was very welcoming to everyone and he smiled at me and said hello clearly, offered a hug but I refused. That definitely didn’t happen, it was the opposite! Bro was aggressive towards him quite a few times and showing off in front of dishy. My mum said she listened and didn’t comment much, but she felt she had to bring up the topic of dud giving sis a new phone, and not giving me and bro anything. She was not happy at all when we told her. So she told him she would preferred it if he had talked to her first before getting sis a new phone. she was going buy me (I told her I don’t need one) and bro new phones because that was only fair. Apparently there was a very long pause, and he told her ‘not to bother or worry about it because bro and I didn’t deserve it’. (F you dud). That made her really angry and ended the call as soon as she could telling him to have a lovely Xmas (not). She said she was tried not to sound too sarcastic or angry and called him a lot of names when she hung up. About duds gf. Sis did say to me, not too long ago, that dud seemed to have a lot of gfs’, and he kept on talking about them to her, sometimes he giving her too much info! Ew. She asked him to stop because she didn’t want to know or what to say and it made her feel uncomfortable, which he didn’t like, apparently he told her he was just trying to have adult conversations with her. But sis did say his gf was likely to be around. Haha There does seem to be a bit of a bromance between dishy and bro. Both bro and dishy said that the visit was really uncomfortable at first but then did become really interesting. Quite triggering for dishy because dud was reminding him of both his parents, then he realised how immature dud is, after his sulking. He felt quite protective of all of us, mainly bro, and that dud and bro should not be left alone together. He said when backed bro up it was like he was telling off one of the kids off at school. He’s been writing down the similarities between dud and his parents - i think that’s so he can understand npd more. He said his dad is very snobbish too. his step mum has (or did, she’s trying to build it back up again) her own mobile hairdressing business and he said they had lot of arguments about it because his dad thought she could do so much better. Dishy thinks it was jealousy on his dads part. He used to have his own business too but it failed and he doesn’t like his job that he does now. Yeah Bro has definitely matured, and de slimed I didn’t realise until we were there. I thought he was going to be quite angry towards dud but he seems to be able to control that better. . He was very assertive with him and confident. I think it came very naturally to him. Sis could feel the awkwardness to begin with but she wanted to stay longer and complained quite a lot when we left. But again, bro was assertive with her (he was on a roll) and told her to stop complaining, she got her visit (and her phone)… and I turned on the happy music for the drive home 🎶. ********* Dishy did quite well over Christmas, he distracted himself by constantly playing with older cousins kids, from the moment they got there until they left (exhausted), they didn’t stop. Both his parents called him on Xmas day, he did look a bit panicked at first but he choose not to call either of them back until a couple of days later (I get to listen in, in the background 😃) he did them one after the other to get it over and done with. His mum was not impressed he took so long to call her back 🙄and told him how miserable she been over Christmas (nothing different there then!). She was quite demanding on when he was going to visit her. She asks him that every time, she’s doesn’t have anything new to say. She talks like she doesn’t know there a pandemic or she could visit him. His dad was very nice towards him, no mention of the argument they had and wants to meet up soon. Dishy told him he was busy with work, not willing to set a date. His dad also asked dishy if he was going to see his step mum and dishy told him that was actually non of his business. Conversation dried up after that. Neither of them asked how his Xmas was, what he was doing and no mention of Xmas presents. In the beginning dishy was eating less, skipping breakfast, sometimes lunch but always ate in the evening. when his step mum found out about his anxiety she asked if he was eating properly and he confessed he wasn’t. She told him off (in a nice but firm way) and he’s been good ever since. Talking of his step mum dishy asked if he could call her mum 😃, she stayed a few days before Christmas. They went out on a walk together and he said it felt like the right time to ask they both came back very happy. His step mum (or now mum) was like ‘it was like being proposed to, only better!’. Anyway I will write about mums’ and sis later.

Lils quite the eventful Xmas here! So Dishy's step mum gave him a subtle brow beating about his eating habits. But all in good gesture 👏 Dud is dud and will no doubt ever change. BTW did you get the booster shot?

Hello, Dinner with the mums went really well, they all got on. Was a bit eventful to start with. My mum called me a couple of hours before and said she was sorry but she had to bring sis with her. Bro wasn’t home and she wasn’t happy leaving sis home alone. Was a bit annoying, but there wasn’t really any reason why sis couldn’t come. Something had definitely happened because when they arrived I could hear them arguing, or more sis’s voice, behind the front door 🙄. Sis stomped in without saying anything (hi sis) and went and sat on her own. My mum was looking quite stressed but she did relax when met the other mums. Was able to be her normal self. Dishy’s step mum (or mum) to the rescue really with sis. She was really friendly and pleased to meet her. Sat with her and talked away to her, even though at first, I don’t think she was getting much of a response. But she asked her lots of questions, then encouraged her to join in instead of sitting on her own. So sis cheered up and was very helpful in the end by helping clear up. (Playing waitress). My mum and Dishy’s mum discovered they grew up in the same area so they were talking about that for agggeess. Housemates mum is really nice. I made sure I sat next to her when we were eating so I could talk to her more. She a Liberian and loves books too :-D. I could see that housemate and his mum are close just by how he talked to her and was quite attentive. I’ve worked out housemates story and he’s told me a lot more since. He went to boarding school, (his mum mentioned it briefly and housemate looked really uncomfortable) hated it, suffered really badly with homesickness and was bullied. He kept on telling his mum and dad he wanted to come home but his dad said made him stick it out then he said when he was home in the holiday he rebelled mainly towards his dad. So there is resentment. His mum and dad don’t live very far away, he could live at home but chooses not to. The other that came out was that Dishy’s mum is quite lonely. She’s trying to set up her hair business again and make friends where she’s moved to. But that led on to the mums having own chat group thing and now they are planning to do lots of things together. So that was positive. we are also going to do more meet ups take it turns. ***************** With Sis- That was meant to read - my mum doesn’t like sis’s bf (they’ve been going out a few months, she dumped the nice, thoughtful ex bf) and sis was telling me my mum is making it really obvious. The reason why sis came to the mums meet up was because bro went out (he’s become a lot more sociable) and sis wanted to stay home and invite her bf round. My mum said no and they had an argument. My mum really doesn’t like him at all and she likes most people, and if she’s unsure about someone, she’ll give them a chance. She says she has tried to get to know him (like she has done with dishy and same with bros gf) and asks him questions but he doesn’t really say much. She thinks he’s a mini dud (that’s why she’s reacting) and this is the type of bf sis is going to go for. She also told me he upsets sis sometimes too, by being mean, (sis will tell my mum) but in the end she forgives him. She’s also said that sis’s behaviour has changed a lot, she’s a lot more demanding and can be really moody, especially if she doesn’t get something she wants. Which I have noticed - When dud invited us round to his, sis called me and was wanting me to commit to taking her and stay over at duds there and then. She was telling me, not asking. I told her to call me back when she can ask me in a nicer way, then I’d think about it. That could be down to dud though. Sis’s side of the story is my mum is being too interfering. She’s making it very obvious she doesn’t like her bf so he’s not going to talk to her. And it’s obvious she doesn’t that trust either of them. I think it’s more him she’s doesn’t trust. I’ve met her bf a few times and he is cocky, loves himself a bit too much, so I can see what my mums means. I have been meaning g to talk to sis a bit more about this because I don’t like the fact he’s mean to her. But I’m hoping my mum and sis have talked about this more too (I will ask).

Hi Sorry Scopes, I wasn’t ignoring you, I jinxed my self when I said things were going to be quiet! Yes I’ve had the booster! I had an argument with dud yesterday, quite a big one. I was home, unfortunately he was there, I was really not in the mood to see him so kept away from him most of the time. He overheard me and bro having a conversation about uni, then he just interrupted bro mid sentence and started belittling/lecturing/patronising him, so I told dud to shut up, which he obvs didn’t like. He wanted to know what my problem was with him…so I told him :-). That’s the short version.

Lils I swear since I've had the Booster (additional dose) I've been sick 😫 There's no escaping dud! When I see the word dud I think of milk duds.

Oh no Scopes, my aunt is convinced she’s always ill since having the jabs too. There are American chocolates called milk duds too ( is that what you mean?). Maybe I could send him some that would confuse him 😁. Ugh yeah, there is no escaping dud. Since our argument, he turned up unexpectedly at home, talked to my mum about it. my mum said he was tearful (bet he had to squeeze those tears out), she didn’t fall for it. He wants her help to rebuild a relationship with me again. First he wanted to know where I live so he could turn up and talk to me. My mum told him that wasn't appropriate since I live with other people and (to get him off her back) she told him she would ask me if I’d talk to him with her there too. My answer was no there is nothing more to say, would only escalate things. Buuuut I don’t want him to start putting pressure on my mum. also I am going to be going home a lot more at the weekends coz of Biz and he will probably be there, it’s not easy to avoid him. I will have to see.

Lils you're exactly right ✅️ Milk chocolate covering a chewy caramel inside 😋. I attribute those delicious 😋 things to most of the crowns 👑 in my mouth. If dud is persistent I'd bet he'd probably get the message if you sent him a box. Now I'm gonna have to go out and buy a box. Love those candies 🍬

Hey Lils and Scopes, Guess who's just had weeks of Omicron. I won't say I suffered - because I mostly slept! Talk about energy getting completely hogged by the immune system! Seriously, it was more like sleeping sickness than Flu. Bear with just a little longer, will grab the first window between now and the weekend. PS: have either of you had it yet?

😲 OMG soulmate you get well! From what's been described from other's whom have had it I really can't say that I have. You get better Soulmate! If there we're anything I could do for you You know I would.

Hi, Oh no hope you’re feeling better now Soulmate. I’m still convinced I had it at Christmas, even though the tests’ I did were negative, took ages till I felt better again. Then older cousin and his family all tested positive a few days after Xmas. 🤷‍♀️

Guess who relapsed! Ahh, that's sweet of you to say, Scopesie. Unfortunately, you'd need a Teleporter and they haven't been invented yet, LOL. Saying that, I could probably have sneezed you into next week (ha-ha). My close friends and their kid had it at the same time, so it was interesting to compare notes, as well as good to have the odd bit of company whenever we could manage it. So's you know, just in case: bar the initial 2-3 day onset, Omicrom is definitely mild when it comes to all the familiar flu symptoms - as well as the not-so-familiar: scratchy as well as tight throat, (strange combo, rear-upper rather than tonsil area), achy muscles (lower back in my case, all over for said friends), tummy-ache and/or windy or dodgy tummy (not every day), Visual Migraines (although, my friends had normal, vice-llike headache)... But it just leaves you sapped and unable to do much, needing to nap ALL the time, plus rollercoasters from one day to the next - crap, better, crap again... You very much have to roll with it and adapt your output (if any!) to suit. Oh - and Flu Blues (feeling miz or too easily moved to tears or just depression-without-a-cause) DURING, rather than after. ...And no temperature or chills pour moi, just feeling unusually chilly, despite others did. Annoying and frustrating more than anything, because it's not quite bad enough to stay in bed all day but neither do you feel well enough to exert yourself for anything other than short bursts or half a day on a good day. I was sleeping - kid you not - for up to 16 hours per day! Today is the first in a month that I've felt too normal to ("touch wood!") expect another relapse, with back to normal, consistent energy level (i.e. Hyperactive LOL) all day (thanks god, though, cos I'm now faced with a backlog of stuff to do). I'd give it 6 out of 10 for 'severity' but 9 out of 10 for Won't Sod-Off Properly factor. A lot of breaking and rescheduling of plans was involved.

Lils, you might have had it and tested that bit too early (think pregnancy test and how you have to have a certain concentration of the preggers hormone) or had it so mildly it didn't register. Said friends only tested Pos on the second go.

Re dud... Disgustingly childish and spiteful as pper. Deserving, according to him, obviously means Best Flying Monkey, despite little Sis can't be blamed for holding out Hope for that little bit longer, that her father is still sane in there somewhere (nope) or might return to sanity (nope). As long as she knows through you lot's reactions, how opposite of a grown adult (psychologically distured) he is. When's his birthday? Maybe give him one solitary chocolate (the one he hates) from a Milk Tray (that you've hollowed out from the underside) and tell him that's all he deserves. (What a shame his mum didn't rhymes-with-wallow him.) Not that you and bro care - you'd have hated having to deal with being given a present, so - every cloud... But, it's still the fact he can act like that towards his own kids and not REALISE how ANTI-parent that makes him. Mind you, gives us a really good picture of what kind of treatment he was reared on, eh. How to break a kid so he never turns into an adult and stays stuck in seriously hateful, spiteful thicko mode. (What a horrid way to live. Can you imagine?) Your Mum must seriously want to strangle him by now. I know I do. Maybe tell him, since every human interaction according to him is an EXCHANGE - you'll swap him however many hours-worth of Teatime it takes for him to explain himself and his family-crushing decision up until now, until you're satisfied? He likes setting conditions? He's gottit! Bleugh (again). But - " She said she was tried not to sound too sarcastic or angry and called him a lot of names when she hung up. " - do you mean she called him names or somehow managed not to? I'm betting the latter, but, THEY DO push even saints to breaking point so...?

"About duds gf. Sis did say to me, not too long ago, that dud seemed to have a lot of gfs’," A lot of victims, you mean. But - NOTED. What are yours or your mum's thoughts in hindsight, now that you undoubtedly know from your studies how they're usually serially-cheating when you meet them, date them, marry them, have kids with them...and that when they discard you (and you yourself make it a for-real discard rather than allow it as their intimidation tactic), just continue with it, this time out in the open... Do you suspect he fits this pattern? Did he used to work late a lot or disappear all the time on this or that pretext? Any retrospective clues or epiphanies on Mum's part? "and he kept on talking about them to her, sometimes he giving her too much info! Ew. She asked him to stop because she didn’t want to know or what to say and it made her feel uncomfortable, which he didn’t like, apparently he told her he was just trying to have adult conversations with her. But sis did say his gf was likely to be around. " Good for her - because that is serious emotional abuse, tantamount to strapping and padlocking a heavy, cumbersome backpack onto a fragile spine and expecting the kid to still function regardless. Not that the kid's functionality is something that bothers or occurs to them, anyway. It does sound like she can handle him pretty well, then, if she can dare assert herself against him like would an adult? She shouldn't have to, though, should she...and THAT is the point and why healthy bods should spend as little time around them as poss. Growing-up is hard enough, without having to constantly swat away malarial mosquitos.

(PS: should add for precision: certainly emotionally abusive if done more than once AND is just one out of the rest of the abuser-symptomatic package.) "He felt quite protective of all of us, mainly bro, and that dud and bro should not be left alone together. " Yup. And yup. Quite a powerfully bonding experience for you and he specifically and in particular, I imagine? Probably had loads of notes to compare, yes? I get that he's identifying particularly closely with younger bro on this score, though. Bound to. Do much better than WHAT, by the way - something that she enjoyed doing? Or an attempt to isolate by removing a source of confidence and thereby hobble against ever leaving dead-end him. Here, Lils, how about getting the duds together next time (and 5 mins in, all sneaking out of the loo window)? LOL Leave them two sharp knives and...you never know (hope).

PS Scopes - you can spread Ta, Mush (or Mushtie) around America as well, if you like? I've already had them saying Bloody Hell and Bloody Nora, etc. (been advising on forums for decades now, going yabber-yabber-narcissists...in fact, even back when people would reply NP-What?).. It's just Cockney, though. Not that I'm Cockney, any more than I'm a Trekkie ("It's dialect, Jim, but not as we know it").

Oh, and on that note... Dear Anna Kaszina, Love your blogs, love having watched your shared recovery path, but if you're GOING to quote me, it's - "Weebles wobble but they don`t fall down". It was the strapline of a 70s-80s English ad for a toddler toy that couldn't be up-ended by however hefty a whack. Just saying. x (See what I have to deal with, Scopes? LOL) And while I'm at it (for all Americans), it's - "I couldn't care less", not "I could." - THINK ABOUT IT: if you COULD care less then YOU CARE. The point of the statement is that there IS no lesser level of caring because you DON'T. (English lessons over - as you were, everyone, LOL)

"Dishy did quite well over Christmas, he distracted himself by constantly playing with older cousins kids, from the moment they got there until they left (exhausted), they didn’t stop. " Yup! You have to be VERY sure you're ready for kids. You have to feel you've done everything you should and wanted, because you basically put your own lives on hold while playing Frantic Waiter (for decades). So it's good if you get to see the donkey-work side as well as the joyous stuff, then you know what you're in for (something nothing like Disney, basically). Also, don't ever forget that the Terrible Twos and Terrible Teens (and now, Tweens) are Narcissistic periods (in their rightful place of development)...times when "Ahh" changes to "Aaargh!" and you basically have to take a whole lot of abuse...from a midgit. And it DEFINITELY takes two adults (two normal-sized wills) to withstand one toddler or teen (inflated will). Definitely. OR, if you end up a single parent, unplanned - one stubborn effer, prepared to repeat yourself constantly. ORRR, deliberately say a lot of Yeses to what doesn't matter so that the kid is happy with the amount of important Nos. I've walked OUT of better and less demanding jobs! Don't regret a thing, though. My son is effing amazing - I am SO in awe! - not to mention a natural pro at handling narcs, socios and psychopaths, whether on a personal level or (accosted/attacked) out on the street (which seems to be once per year on average so far). Super-Nova Empath come Narc's Worst Nightmare or what! He wrong-foots them and ties them in mental knots without missing a beat, without having to lay a finger on them. But kind to those that need, appreciate and comprehend kindness (obvs). Also super-talented and -witty. ...WHAAAH, I MISS MY BOY! What was the question again? BTW, in case you're wondering - I'm up at this hour because I slept practically all day. Do finally feel better though.

Lils/Soulmate I had a life-changing experience yesterday. I was riding home from a Lowe's hardware store and did a face plant on the sidewalk. I blanked out and a passerby help me up and called the paramedics. I was covered with blood all over my face. The paramedics finally showed up and did my vitals. I refused ambulance service because I've been down that road before 2k bill. The same guy who helped me gave a ride home with bike and I went straight to the hospital. Spent 5 miserable hours in ER. Two broken teeth And deep cuts which required stitches. Plus a broken nose, looks like someone beat me with a baseball bat. If could send you a pic I would

HAHA, I give a lecture on English and then straight afterwards spell midget with two Is! I guess my saving grace is the fact I noticed it in-time. But - ya couldn't make it up, eh. PS: Dear Anna, I take it all back. :-D ...unless it's proof it's contagious?? ************* "Both his parents called him on Xmas day," Well, that's progress, anyway - even IF the contents of the calls themselves wouldn't have been beneficial. At least they appreciate that particular parental duty, especially given the current circs. Strikes me that you have one good parent and one fully dud, whereas Dishy has two half-duds. Here - any further peep from his brother yet?

OH EM GEE, SCOPES!

You saying your blanking-out caused the crash or was due to it?

PS: is that store part of a nationwide or county-wide chain? If not, I´ll have to delete your post for obvious self-locating reasons (ya ´nana)

You lot get charged 2K for just the ambulance bit? Cheaper to take a taxi, surely! Or am I being the 'nana now?

Yep, I'm the 'nana - I missed the 'a'. (Phew!) If I were you I'd get a bad that reads "You should see the other guy!" (lemons into lemonade, innit).

Tsk - BADGE (flippin nora!)

Who was the Good Samaritan? What a lovely man! Did you take his number? THAT'S the sort of new best friend you want, isn't it (I should cocoa!).

Lils, "Neither of them asked how his Xmas was, what he was doing and no mention of Xmas presents." If either of them could see my face right now, they'd run in the opposite direction....screaming.

"f dud is persistent I'd bet he'd probably get the message if you sent him a box. " HAHAHAH - I missed that first time round!!! Nice one! (And the award for this month's best Meow goes to Mr Tele Scopes)

Missed this too: "There was a few uni friend Skype calls over Christmas to make sure no one was too lonely." Wow. You and my son's generation are such fine specimens. You really are having such an incredible, very positive influence on society, you really are. Your confidence, self-assurance, healthy attitudes, including sense of social responsibility and nurturing, ...your moral standards and compasses, not to mention mental strength and resilience, etc., ETC., is such a developmental leap it more befits the word Evolutionary Growth Spurt. NO MORE INEQUALITY OR VICTIMISING ANYWHERE, EVER, pretty much sums you all up. Thank uck for you. Really. Sincerely. I feel very thankful that I'm getting to see my lifelong wish made manifest through you 'newbies'....makes it all worthwhile. Soz to make you blush, but it demands huge recognition.

Re little sis and her new boyUNfriend: All together now - "My maaamma don't LIIIIKE you an' she likes ev'ry-ooone... Tell Mum to chill (a bit). Sis is doing what all almost-ACONS that lack a certain type of imagination do: re-enact for real...think hands-on apprentice rather than academic student - practical over theory. They grab the nearest mini-narc as most resembles the problematic parent in order to replicate the roles and thereby the relationship...which is perfectly easy to do considering the dynamic is so rigidly prescribed (by the fact of the narc being dominant)... as in Same Play, Different Co-Stars..."I Married A Narcissistic Sociopath, The Sequel". She's your mum (victim-survivor) and horrid bf is your dud - in miniature. Theory is all well and good, but there is no beating first-hand experience AND theory (be it before or after the event) together. Since (my proven theory) everything in life is a 50/50 marriage of the environmental-tangible (outer universe) plus the psychological (inner universe) before it can be considered true knowledge... well - nuff said, eh. Same goes for true empathy (which the experience will increase in her). There's cognitive PLUS emotional. Either without the other isn't the full kit 'n caboodle. This is little sis's brand of being really clever. This is why, whether she knows it or not, she can't leave Dud alone. Mini Dud she ISN'T I'd MUCH rather she did it and got it out of the way NOW, during her romantic practise period, rather than when she's ready to actually pairbond and sprog. As long as your mum continues to supervise, it'll do little sis good - AS WELL AS make the total fact of Dud go PING! She'll finally undertand him, feel sick, and avoid his type FOREVER AFTER.

Yeah.. it might be a nation wide chain so best you delete it. But at least you know what happened. I can expand on this horrific experience some other time.

Sorry - Sent premately somehow by mistake. Should read, Mini Dud she ISN'T attached to from her core. So, him, she will be able to read and 'understand' more easily, without any emotional clutter to cloud her vision, force her hand or weaken her resolve, i.e. greater objectivity and thereby greater powers of observaation. You watch - you'll see. Plus - little sis is scarier than you realise, under that dad-appeasing, cutesie angel act. You know that to an extent, but - I repeat - once she starts to disagree and disapprove and gets reclassified (black or white) from Angel to Devil, she's the one who's going to chew him up and spit him out. You watch. Ten Quid? LOL) Son did the same. I did the same, back When, (albeit concertedly, like the precious little adult-in-child-body experimenter I was), despite I did have all the theory. I made sure the first-ever beau was a diamond, though (as did son). Heck - so did you re-enact Mum and Dud - remember? He sat there and flaunted his other victim right in your face...which is exactly what Dud did, yes?...remember when Mum turned up unexpectedly and saw her car? AAAAAAND - MORE TO THE OBJECTIONS POINT - so did Mum!...That bloke who dicked her around, not so long ago, remember? (Not quite sure whose role Lena was playing, though - do YOU know yet? Or WAS Semolina just a faceless practise-dummy to sharpen her somewhat blunted claws on?) In fact, it's true to say, I've never once come across anyone who HASN'T been wittingly or otherwise driven onto that stage to replicate the fauxlationship and actually FEEL how it is and all (doesn't) works. Knowledge Is Power. Your brain is your only sword and shield in this life. Isn't that right, Tigers and Lions? (They said RARR, which is man-eating animal talk for Yahs.)

No, Scopes, other way round: if it's a nationwide chainstore then that's okay. It was if it were an exclusive, unique to your town, that it would be a breach of personal security. No worries, as you were. :-)

I'll finish the rest tomorrow (or today - see how it goes, got lots on)... ...meaning - the floor is yours, Scopes, to give us the full, gory details of your Pope impression (kissing the runway, haha). Night! Or do I mean, Day?

You alright, though? Got suitable prescription painkillers with antiflammatory? Remembering to hold frozen (should be half defrosted, actually) peas to your face to take the swelling down? Also - got any Echinacea? Can you eat ok - did they fix your teeth?

Yep,takikng Clindamycin whatever that is. Difficult to eat because front teeth are knocked out. Hopefully I'll see dentist tomorrow or next day. My lips are still swollen, you're the second person to recommend cold 🥶 compress. Nose is broken.

Ooooh scopes, poor you, I hope you get recover quickly. And snap. I had a trip A&E 😬…for X-ray and stitches, in a storm… just getting there was interesting. My accident was more me being stupid though and not really thinking. Housemate left the downstairs loo window open 🥶 , so I stood on the toilet seat lid to close it and fell through 🙄 (yea…not a good idea, not been eating all the chocolates either, lid was flimsy) One foot landed in toilet (eww) but I somehow managed to keep my balance. Got my foot out but had some nasty cuts from the broken toilet lid. Then discovered housemate doesn’t like blood, and dishy was trying to find the first aid kit we got ages ago and put in a really good hiding place … still not found it! Doctor told me I was lucky I didn’t break my ankle or any other bones but will probably need physio. Walking is interesting …I’m not happy too coz I can’t do much and this leaves dishy and housemate to do the cleaning and cooking too (🤢).

Lils I think I remember you telling that story a while back. Er visits are never pleasant 😒 I'm sure dishy and house mate understand You're important

Hmmm I broke my hand a while back if that’s what you’re remembering. But no a&e is never fun. Hope you’re on the mend scopes

Yep you're right it was the broken hand story. I'm slowly healing and the scabs are starting to peel. I am on the mend, I'm also growing a beard because I can't shave 😅 🙃

😀 are you going to keep it scopes?

I'm thinking about it 🤔 It's like wearing a paint brush on my face. BTW Lils what's going on with dishy and housemate?

Hi, Housemate is ill, not sure if it’s covid, like me, he keeps on testing negative but had a lot of symptoms. he’s staying with his family at the moment because they all have the same illness. Dishy, he came from work not long after Xmas, he was getting really anxious driving, not helped by someone bumped into his car (wasn’t bad) ! and he said he couldn’t wait for this talking therapy thing. His step mum has been offering to pay for him to see a counsellor for ages, he’s always said no but now he’s taken her up on that offer. soo that’s what he’s up to! He seems to like the person he’s talking to. So All good 😊

Lils do you still have covid? At least things sound more positive for dishy at the moment. Have to see the doctor today. I have fluid on my right knee. Really hope this doesn't get serious 😕. Had the broken teeth fixed with temp crowns 👑 Monday

Lils, Soulmate everything ok?

Hey scopes yeah all good with me just been busy. No don’t have covid, housemate did test positive in the end but he stayed away at his mum and dads and only came back home the other day, but he says he still doesn’t feel right. Only real update is dishy mum is planning to come and stay, not with us. Also took her a while to understand that it had to be in school holidays. Dishy can’t just take time off work 🙄. Dishy is not sure how much he wants to see her but I’m leaving him to talk about that with his counsellor. Are you all recovered now?

Yep, testing is what they're doing now. Hopefully housemate gets better. Is this Dishy's step mum or his biological mum? I can't remember, I thought it was his biological mum he was having issues with. As for me I'm healing, however I declined from the MRI EXAM. I'm claustrophobic and being inside of that noisy monstrosity for 20 minutes wasn't gonna happen. She offered nurses sedation, but i didn't want to go through recovery. She also offered the larger MRI, but wasn't sure if it was available

Wow. Guys, this Omicron is NOT "mild" AT ALL. It's just very slow burning - WITH UNWANTED, SURPRISE ADDITIONS that you wouldn't expect from a virus. This thing is serious. I'm not normally a conspiracy theoriest but I am now suspecting chemical warfare, test-run OR escaped from its test-tube. I feel like tonight, after two or more months of virtually non-stop, emotional HELL on top of the many. ever varying/switching/morph-ing as well as rollercoaster-ing, physical, flu symptoms, I finally feel normal again. I know you won't have been able to tell (bar the absences..although maybe not even then, given there'd been circumstantially-caused ones aplenty already), because I literally forget myself when I'm here to focus on someone else's life and problems, but - I don't mind telling you now, after the fact: I feel like I've been on a very long, very horrid and depressing, drug's trip. WHILE SUFFERING FLUS AND COLDS GALORE. Anxiety - over problems that didn't justify the depth of constant insecurity, depression, despair.... I even thought I'd been suffering three separate bugs in-a-row, so distinct were the shifts. But nope. It just morphs as you recover, meaning, I had flu, followed by sinus flu, followed by gastroenteritis. Intermittently, there were okay days. But if I acted on them - suddenly got very industrious - i.e. if I celebrated the sudden presence of SOME EMERGY - I'd pay for it the next day as if I'd overdone it. In fact, I'd say a large part of the feeling was not a million miles away from post-Narc break-up heartache! And I haven't even broken up with anybody! Woah. Weird. In fact, it was trying to FUNCTION with a head-cloud that big and Black like that (Eyeore City!) that was what made it so hell. That and the fact we've had weeks and weeks of... well, ENGLISH weather, basically! UGH. Record amount of rain - day after bloody day - record length of cloudiness - and ditto for the lower-than-average temperatures. So THAT didn't help, either. Complete doom and gloom and despair and catastrophising....basically negative emotional overwhelmment. (FY anyone's I -) The physical symptoms (peppered with the odd Okay day) were, in loose order (because they all repeatedly played Do-Si-Do all the time) :- No irritating cough BUT dry-coughing too easily upon breathing-in anything-less-than-warm air (still got) Very bunged-up with catarrh, coughing up and blowing out loads Tongue thrush Cystitis (touch of) No appetite Rashes on my neck Hot flashes Sinus pain - frontal so...eyebrows into temples, and cheekbones...enough pressure to mimic toothache here and there Headaches and (in my case) visual migraines (fragmented vision a lot like looking through a kaleidoscope) Sleeping FAR longer at night and still being capable of nodding off for 2-4 hours during the day....tremendous fatigue - this is the one constant, most major symptom Physically weak Losing interest in everything and everyone, wanting to stay indoors Feeling horribly insecure (about anything my mind could find and magnify) Aching muscles and joints Indigestion, heartburn, uncontrollable gas both ends (yep, that'll keep you out of the social scene, alright!), fast and/or slow diarrhea...meanwhile, an AUDIBLY(!) ever-churning stomach (which, after the first on-off week of total 2.5 weeks, was when I'd thought I'd come largely out of Covid and seamlessly into Norovirus), Then burst in a constantly streaming (uncontrollably!) nose and sneezing, Mouth ulcers, body boils. Nearly developed some sort of stye just under my inner tear-duct but I zapped it in the bud with diluted TCP ("ow" but worth it) Still disinterested in food. But also, the thought of eating causing nausea...I had to have a wee bite of cheese or something to spark my appetite enough to eat, which then turned the nausea off (so little mouthfuls through the day is the answer, or soup in a mug...soup was a godsend for me), (Weirdly) ingrown toenails development (don't ask me?!), which I sorted out by shoving Vaseline under them for a few days, under a plaster, wearing socks and walking around as much as poss (hmm...actually...I suddenly can see a Mucus Membrane theme running here, what with the ulcers et al as well)... Tip: Honey & Lemon and the Telly and NOT giving myself the guilts for "still lying around, all ill and miserable", were comforting. I'm sure I've missed some off. So as far as I'm concerned, the choice on the menu is any of the standard Covids (the all-at-once tsunami) versus Omicron and/or into Omicron Stealth (drip-drip-drip). And Flu Blues that don't even wait until the final week, wanna be a part of the whole show, and which, calling them that is such an understatement as to be laughable. Flu BLACKS, more like. I feel like I've been psychologically paralysed the whole time. Soooo...that's my news, LOL LOL LOL. Tomorrow I'll come on and catch up with all your posts ...and hope to God I haven't spoken too soon and don't feel crap again tomorrow!!!...don't think so though. This "feeling better" is different. But I repeat. SINCE the suspected story goes that it escaped from the lab, then, what I wanna know is - HOW. As far as I've seen, people tend to be highly - nay, RIDICULOUSLY careful when they work in one of those!

PS: a close friend caught it just days after me and is the only other person I know who suffered the Long/Stealth version. Had it not been for that constant comparison, and fellow sufferers in the UK who rang in to LBC and described their symptoms (and the fact the cough and temperature - and Positive reading were absent this time), I might easily have concluded I was on my way out or going mad.

Lils, something's just occurred to me! Dishy's anxiety could be - either wholly or partially - down to Stealth Omicron! It's called Stealth BECAUSE it largely isn't detectable by the tests that were designed for the regular Covids. It lowers your resilience and magnifies your woes, worries, fears, and negativity HUGELY! I swear a lot of the time I was having low-grade anxiety attacks, I tell ya! Ask him if he's been experiencing any physical symptoms like the above-described. Could be???

"Doctor told me I was lucky I didn’t break my ankle or any other bones but will probably need physio." BER-LUDDY HELL!...it's all been going on around here, hasn't it!? You and Scopes nearly coming a cropper and me starting to think I'd somehow developed a new type AIDS or something! Life is just too darned weird and too full of nasty surprises, lately, isn't it. No wonder the new "Fine, thanks" is "Average, thanks". Even then, you're doing well! So how long are you going to be limping around? What's the doctor's prognosis?

"was trying to find the first aid kit we got ages ago and put in a really good hiding place … still not found it!" Try the boot of your car.

"'m thinking about it 🤔 It's like wearing a paint brush on my face." It's like wearing a paintbrush on your face AND YET you're thinking about it? Easier just to buy a paintbrush and some UHU glue or velcro, then. Surely? Best of both worlds, eh. (LOL - that bump on the head when you landed - did you get it checked out properly?)

"His step mum has been offering to pay for him to see a counsellor for ages, he’s always said no but now he’s taken her up on that offer. soo that’s what he’s up to! He seems to like the person he’s talking to. So All good 😊" HURRAH! AND HURRAH AGAIN! But, after the long, drawn-out, 'bad drugs trip' I've just been through, i still suspect it's worth his considering whether stealth covid has been majorly exacerbating his anxiety.

He just needs to talk - with no inhibition, no holds barred, with someone who understands through having heard it all before - or even better/luckier, someone who's lived it all before. It really does work. ...That, and realising life has handed you an adoptable replacement mum. He should make a speedy recovery from here on in. Keep keeping me posted.

By the way, while I'm here, how are you, Dishy and housemate coping with the extortionate fuel price hoik? Were you lucky enough to get Bills Included?

And how about your Mum? Is she coping? It's been very cold for the time of year there as well, hasn't it. I won't get me started, but... it's incredible that the large majority of Britain are having to choose between eat or heat. Just incredible. And now the food banks are running low on stock - or else, people can't afford to COOK the food they're given! Sunak and Boris will have to do something, and quick. Or I reckon, not only will Labour get it automatically, next election, but that no-one will ever vote Tory again.

Nah. Don't grow a permanent beard, Scopes. They make you look like you've something you feel you need to hide - maybe a hair lip or baby-chin or something... whereby its the attempt to cover it up that's off-putting, more than what might be under there. Plus, beards constantly smell - if not of soap, then soup....one or the other at any given time. Ugh. Most unhygienic. Just saying, LOL. Thin ones are okay, though....i.e. see-through. These days, longer-length designer stubble, and not all over, either. Done properly, it can take years off you. Maybe have a flick through a copy of FOR HIM or something, get some inspiration? But - nah - not a BEARD-beard. Bum Fluff, I call it. You can get sparse bum-fluff or heavy bum-fluff but it still looks and feels like bum-fluff, LOL. (Have I put you off yet or should I try harder? LOL LOL)

Phew, I'm knackered now! I feel better and a lot chirpier, but I'm still not nearly back to full energy. I expect that to creep back in the same way it crept out. Think I've caught up enough but I'll carry on tomorrow because I recall there are a few I didn't get to respond to from last time. (Probably nodded-off LOL)

PS: earlier tonight (er, last night) my Long-Omicrom co-victim friend, referring to the "Flu Blues/Heartache" intensity, summed-up the whole experience with this: "Covid is a Narcissist!" I can't even argue with that. It bloody is! ********* Stop Press: Oh, bloody hell, it's bloody raining again! I THOUGHT THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SPAIN? Good grief. The whole and the entire planet's gone mad and topsy-turvy! I can't even get my head around it all (or KEEP my head around it all, if you know what I mean) - can you two?

...Actually, to correct myself - this Omicrom journey has been more like, Drip-drip-drip-drip-.....CRESCENDO!

WOW! SOULMATE you've been through alot! Nevermind me, you get well. They've lifted mask restrictions here. Just a few people are still masking 😷 up. I haven't read back far enough. Are you fully vaccinated? I know people that are and still got Omnicron. As far as the beard, I couldn't take it anymore it's gone. Glad to hear you're getting better 😊

I have indeed, Scopes, yes - thank-you. I repeat: it was like going Cold Turkey from a long-term, heavy-duty Narc Fauxlationship or marriage. It was like the doom and gloom was there and my mind was picking on anything it could find to blame and fixate over. Even the already put-to-bed past! And then I concluded I hated it here (the "new", Brexit-ruined Spain) and wanted to go back to UK but UK was never my home, I was never happy living there, bar my son being there, and summertime, so in fact, I didn't belong anywhere, WAAAAAAH! (etc.) or...god, any manner of usually not-that-threatening or normally-controllable, potential future outcomes. Never felt so effing insecure and unsafe IN MY LIFE! And that's what a Panic Attack is like - but harder, more severe, whereby you're convinced your heart HAS to give-out, won't possibly survive with this amount of terror (insecurity) and dread making this much PHYSICAL heart-ache and rib-ache (about to start a really important race or public-speak in front of thousands type of adrenaline overload). Nope, I am NOT vaccinated. Have private health but even then wasn't called. I did nothing about it, which told me all I needed to know (I'd rather not, thanks). Listen, I don`t even wear sun-screen. Never did, never would. Me, I can DO the Maths ever since! I do not like chemicals or trust man-made where concerns existentialism, Sam-I-Am. And I'm a bit Mormon-like when it comes to serious medical issues like that. I prefer to let Nature be my No.1 guardian. It's been around far longer than ANOTHER BUNCH OF HAIRLESS APES WHO MAKE MISTAKES - COUGH! - WU HAN. What about you? I seem to recall you had it? You do know it lasts only 6 weeks, right?

No I really haven't had what's known as the full blown version of covid. There's a long story to this. Since I've started Medicare things have changed in my life

Thank-you. And I'm glad to hear you're feeling less hairy. Which is no doubt a sign of your feeling chirpier, too, yes? It's quite a shock, isn't it, coming off your bicycle when you thought you were past all that, back when you were a nipper and finally got good on your bike. Forgive me if I've asked this before (oh yes - a symptom I forgot off the list - LOSS OF MEMORY!) but is yours a manual or electric bike? .

PS: masks were supposed to be being scrapped but nothing's happened. NOT a good sign (here comes another wave, best keep the rule as is). Anyhoo...at least now I have a natural immunity, and one that won't bog-off every 6 weeks. Or I bloody hope I do (gulp!). Anyhoo - night-night, see you tomorrow i.e. later today.

Wait up - one more thing: Sweden suffered the least of any country. And that's because, right from the word Go, they - wait for it - DIDN`T do Lockdown. To be fair, that's the tack Boris originally wanted Britain to take. But he got out-voted, didn't he (or realised he'd be unpopular If).

.Wait - no - one more: "There's a long story to this. Since I've started Medicare things have changed in my life" Go for it, I've got time to chat today (well, after a decent nap).

PSSSSS: no, I meant, I recall you've had the vaccine?

Yes I've had the vaccine I'm fully vaccinated, even had the booster. I'm currently on a Medicare supplemental plan. At one point last year during the summer the insurance company recommended the vaccine so I complied. I have what's known as a yearly wellness check.We do what's known as a virtual visit.They really want to come to your home and see how you're living. I don't like that so I insist on the virtual visit. My last virtual visit was last year September.Up till last year October I have not seen a doctor since 2005. When the nurse found out about that she told the Insurance Company. Now I'm seeing my pcp on a regular basis

Just quickly, ooo, Soulmate, I think you’re right on dishy having basically long covid? Sleep, high anxiety and not being able to function some days, other days he’s better and I think headaches too. I’m going to ask him to see how many symptoms match what you've had…when he wakes up, Easter hols here. His counsellor did ask if he had long covid and he told her he didn’t think so. And luckily today he has a session. Anyway I’ll come back later and reply properly !

Lils how long did Dishy's head aches last? Did he have a fever and loss of taste?

He hasn’t had a fever or loss in taste of smell. He’s recently had a cold though but it wasn’t bad. He had a blood tests a while ago and he was low in vit D. His symptoms are: High levels of anxiety, feels like some days he unable to do anything or function normally. Has good days too though. Sleeps a lot - feels constantly tired. He was putting this down to work. But He would lye in at the weekends and then be back in bed in the afternoon snoozing 😴 Catastrophizing Worrying Insecure Headaches that last half a day or all day. Sinus pain in eye, nose and cheek Loss of interest in doing things Wanting to stay indoors Eye floaters (had eye test, all good) Muscles aching -mainly in arms Not really interested in food Dizziness Feeling weak He also had an under the skin spot thing that took weeks to go. sounds like anxiety and depression now Ive written it all down but who knows! He might of had it, and now he does have long covid/omicron. he’s been working at a school since last September, quite a likely place to get it 🤷‍♀️. One of the things he thinks does helps is a cold shower. I think he’s mad but he’s done a lot of reading on how it helps with anxiety and been doing it for a while now 🫤

Why don't you like the in-person visits, Scopes? BTW, I forgot one: threatening ear-ache here and there, usually one or a short series of sharp twinges/stabs. And at one point, burping uncontrollably after every bloody mouthful I swallowed. (Indeed, 'how attractive!' lol) ********** Hey Lils! Yeah, it's certainly sounding that way. Let me just check your symptoms list... Woah - SNAP! And I forgot about the eye floaters!... and, well, not quite dizziness, more extreme clumsiness - literally bumping into the furniture. One time, I meant to veer left but went right instead, kid you not!... scraped and banged knees galore. I guess, then, it affected my balance and spatial awareness (ear inflammation with fluid disturbance?) It really does sound like he's got it, mate! Might well be that, without it, he'd have been sad and depressed but - not nearly as severely? Er...what helped me, let me think... I took Sudafed, alone or with paracetamol. Lots of honey & lemon (oh yes - extreme thirst also featured)..plus, my diarrhea switched to constipation (still with cramping) so I took New Era homeopathic tissue salts for anything to do with the digestive system (amazing little pills, work really quickly, sworn by them for decades) (available on the net fyi) and stuffed my face with dried figs (... full-fat Pepsi helped when I really couldn't face even soup, and coffee with Jack Daniels when my face and nose and throaat were really hurting (throat was tight but nasal passage where it joins was stingy and made me sneeze non-stop for 2 whole days). But again, it was the intense, fluctuating but ever-present mental anguish and anxiety that accompanied it that was so strong, it could, if I'd been freshly post-traumatic or something, have driven me over the edge. So I'm now wondering how many Covid and Long Covid deaths are down to suicide...maybe? Apart from those, there really wasn't much I could do. I just had to endure. OH, COURSE - WORKING AT A SCHOOL! Nuff said - case closed - he's got it. It's taken his angst and turned it ten-fold! Well... poor sod has my huge commiserations and downright respect, actually...because he's had it FAR longer than me, hasn't he! OMG. Poor, poor Dishy. He has NOT been having a nice time!

He needs to take time off work and just sleep. So that his immune system can use every available bit of his energy to finally kick it into touch.

So, back to prior post re the meeting of the mums...I was meaning to ask you if there had been any mass revelations and realisations across the table that night....anything suddenly dawning on anyone? Are there any you can recall?

Oh, and - snap with the mainly in the arms.

Oh yes, and, for a few days I kept getting cramp in my feet.

Soulmate you definitely have an array of symptoms there. Lots of rest does one good 👍 Yes! Working at a school does expose one to alot of diseases. However I was exposed even more Working for a major airline with exposure to millions of peoples filth 😅 I don't want a heath care worker coming into my house checking my living conditions. My brother told me that's what they do

Speaking of headaches I've had headaches for the last couple of days. Wonder if that's part of a symptom from covid?

Hey! Poor both of you ☹️. Hope you’re still feeling better soulmate and not gone back down hill again. Dishy agrees he has long covid, he been saying to me for ages that he felt wasn’t it wasn’t just anxiety and low in vit d. Was also mean to put the dishy had memory problems and put things in weird places, like his car keys in the fridge. But instead of laughing about he worried he was going crazy. He said sometimes both or one ears will go ‘fuzzy’ as he describes it. He’s seemed to be a lot better this last week because he’s resting. Seems to have more energy. There was a phone with his mum (yes scopes he has problems with bio mum) and I thought would knock him back a bit. Was to do with her visit (😬). Once she got her head around school hols (it’s not that hard is it? I’m sure she acts clueless on purpose) She asked dishy for dates of the next half, so he gave them to her, and she said she’d go away and book flight and hotel near by us. Well…she’s not done, she’s booked completely different dates and is staying over two hours away! Oh and her friend is coming too. When dishy asked what happened to staying near by she said she never said she would, erm… yes you did! and he would have to come to her at the weekends. He told he’s not driving long distances because of anxiety and she unsympathetic to the anxiety and said I could drive him (I will if he’s not ready, he might be by then) or a friend. Disappointed/frustrated dishy once again 🤦‍♀️. He’s not really said much about it since I’m just letting talk to his counsellor person and see what he wants to do. I haven’t said this to dishy buuuut I was imagining and getting a bit worried that if she stayed somewhere really close by, like walking distance, that she would be really demanding and maybe she’d would think she could come round any time, with dishy at work or not, and I’d be alone with her and have to talk to the miserable 🐮, ahh! 😱. I might of got a bit carried away. A 2 hour drive is annoying, under an hour might of been better but it maybe worth it. His bro, we hadn’t heard from him for ages, since new year I think. It was weird for him because he wasn’t replying in our group message thing we got, neither was his gf. Dishy got in contact with him and he came round without gf…who is no longer his gf. He said it was rough break up. Dishy’s step mum said ex gf went very weird after she moved down, it’s not like she moved to the same town! She kinda I’m the middle half way between dishy and his bro and she’s always busy. Mums dinner meeting - I think Dishy’s mum was being careful but she did say that his dad had an affair with a neighbour. (Can’t remember if I put this or not). Dishy knew this because he had been talking to her a lot and spent a few days with her. Housemates mum, didn’t say a lot about his dad but there is something weird going on! Housemate stayed at his family home because they all caught covid, he’s back now but he’s saying he’s thinking about moving back home to save money, which I don’t believe. I get the feeling his Dad is controlling. He came back still looking I’ll but also he seemed stressed out. Hmm. The mum have met up a few times since so maybe more is being said there. We should be ok with house bills. When I work it will be easier. We are thinking of trying to get closer to Dishy’s school to make it easier on him. My mum is on holiday with sibs and her friend, to warm up, as she put it. She was worried about the prices going up. she’s being very careful It’s going to take ages for my foot to get better, I got send back for another X-ray because I was soo painful walking and I was getting foot cramps. Didn’t show anything was broken. So it physio, I find the exercises really BORING, but I gotta do it and it is getting helping. And I think that’s everything.

Scopes, I guess they check out how on top of the housework you are as an indicator of whether you can cope living alone? Yes, a headache for days isn't normal (unless part of sinisitis, but you'd know you had). And you might only have it very mildly, thus only that one symptom. But how are you going to know if the test doesn't register anything. No, Lils, I haven`t relapsed. Well...a bit. But nothing like before. I can still function or just need a 1-2hr nap to re-charge. And still feeling a TINY bit of angst here and there (still for no good reason). Seems to be every 3 to 4 days now. So that's good. And I've got my interest and enthusiasm back. YES - MEMORY PROBLEMS! The Mental Fog (similar to NVS). And yes again to misplacing in weird places when normally I ensure to always put things I've used straight back in their 'home'. Normally I never lose anything, therefore. Also - getting distracted. Trouble remembering the point I was working towards during a paragraph or sentance AND starting a chore and getting side-tracked and then side-tracked from the side-track, and repeat, LOL. Loads of things started, but barely, LOL. Gosh. Yeah, he's had it, for sure. It's also uncanny.... I brought a big box of heavy-duty Vit D with me from England because they were too expensive to throw away afore the move here. I figured I'd give them to son when he visited, to take back with him. He didn't want them. So I just put them back in the meds cupboard, but then found myself automatically reaching for them and for my DHA/EPA high-strength Omega 3 oil capsules. (I'm like that - seem to know instinctually but unthinkingly what food or meds to reach for, even before I've a clue what's wrong with me or am consciously aware OF anything being up.) I could tell they helped because when a wave of woe hit, I found myself prompted to realise I'd failed to take them that morning and making a desperate beeline for them (or to take extra). In FACT, I felt mildly angsty today and, now you've said that, realise I haven't remembered to take any this week. (Gonna take them now.)

Well, that was interesting. I normally take them with water or milk but there's a bottle of Red wine in the kitchen, mostly full, had only had one glass...been sat there all week (bought it for a wine-loving friend's visit) - and I saw it and grabbed it and took a glug and went, YYYYYUM! and glugged some more straight from the bottle! Normally, I'm only inches off tee-total. That is NOT like me AT ALL. Obviously, then, I lack iron at the mo as well! Oh, yeah, forgot another symptom - at times when not nauseous or lacking appetite: food fads. Same for Dishy? Yep...yep....if you WANTED Omicron, then, definitely spend a few hours in a school. And the suspect at my end was - you guessed it - a schoolboy (best friends' kid). His dad felt it first - tested Negative. Then kid - tested Neg. Then his mum - tested Neg. Then his dad tested Positive in the 2nd test...ditto kid. His mum and I - Negative. Only I got the Long version, though. But the pair of them looked after me - shopping n sh*t...which was very sweet and touching, meant I could rest without having to worry about anything on the practical side.

Yep again - the ear fuzziness, like before your ears then pop when flying (...on an aeroplane, naturally, LOL...haven't been out on my broomstick for years). Glad Dishy's improving. Sorry his mum isn't. (Let's shorten Bio Mum and nickname her, Bum. ROFL!) Yes, they indeed do play dumb. They just like needling you (if they're feeling needled) and their playing dumb obviously frustrates you. Either that, or they don't believe you and are trying to trip you up into letting-slip the truth.) Okay...now to full seriousness (got me white coat on)... He's going to have to go Sparse Contact with Bum if she's messing him around again - and standing-him-up for a mere friend again. If his counsellor is clued-up (theory AND first-hand experience) on NPD and NVS then she'll no doubt advise the same. Enough is enough. He must cease knocking on the door to insult and rejection - and cease answering it. You can pick up to her (please) and tell her he's worse. There is no shame in lying to someone who prevents honesty and/or uses it against you, anyway. Then it becomes the sensible, self-p+reservationist thing to do. (Circumstance + Context is what decides what's acceptable or not.) Because - and say this to him: EVERY SINGLE TIME he has anything to do with her, she just HURTS HIM AGAIN! Truth, fact, undeniable. STOP. Mother is a verb first. If not, the noun is pure delusion. This woman hurts her baby, consistently. Stick with surrogate mum. If Bum can't put 2 and 2 together to work out why her son seems to be avoiding her since this event then - that's HER problem and mystery to mull over until someone else works it out for her. IT WOULD BE UNNATURAL FOR HIM OR ANYONE IN HIS POSITION, *NOT* TO DISTANCE HIMSELF IN REACTION TO THAT FRANKLY DOWNRIGHT DEBAUCHED BEHAVIOUR. Does his brother tend to have contact, still, or does he avoid her?

If he avoids her for long enough, she WILL read the boundary line he's behaviourally painted - even IF she doesn't quite get or appreciate it - and won't do it again. Training a Narc to keep off your grass is no more difficult than training a puppy (apart from the fact you're only supposed to have to train dumb animals) (well, there you go then, lol). He HAS to force himself into Acceptance. He's clearly stuck in Plea Bargaining, shown by his trying to negotiate a show of proof that she does love him, via the arrangement of her visit. No, you will NOT drive him. Because, gosh darn-it, you only went and broke your ankle, didn`t you! Gosh, Mrs Bum, I'm really sorry about that but what can ya do! And what's this you'd have to nonsense? Have you become infected by Dishy's neurosis now? It's called, SORRY, Bum, but now really isn't convenient (if she turns up unannounced) - or, next week isn't convenient. BE RUDE IF YOU WANT TO! Save your manners for kind people. These bozos NEED 10ft, neon verbals. Because normally, it takes inarguable actions. If she has scope to improve, you'll both be doing her a huge favour. And if she doesn't - it doesn't even matter, you can just do whatever feels most cathartic to YOU, because, she won't be hurt like you guys would be. She'll just feel insulted and irritated that she's not being bowed and scraped to, not heartbroken. Only if you STAY AWAY will she have to change her tune. And even if it`s just done begrudgingly by rote - who cares, as long as she behaves LIKE she's normal. If he sees her after this Nth belittling insult, he will have to inform his counsellor that he's degenerated into SELF-HARM (with her, the razor he keeps picking up or allowing to fly into his hand and slice his arm for him). HE IS NOT UNLOVEABLE. SHE is. And her maternal instinct is OUT-OF-ORDER. It's not, Waaah my mummy doesn't love me (and keep futilely giving her chances to prove otherwise), it's, Waaah, my mummy can't love (full-stop). ANYONE. She doesn't have the brain parts. He must cease hoping and expecting this paraplegic to get out of her wheelchair and walk. At her ripe age? Ain't gonna happen. She'll be set like concrete now. Tell him I (or someone) said, For goodness sake, man - WHERE IS YOUR PRIDE! AND SELF-DISCIPLINE! It's not hard to do because it'll be his decision and he has the brake pedal, he can break the SC any time it gets too much (...and just get yet another reminder of why he's gone sparse contact, which at least will help him go longer the next time). He can just say to her over the phone: Sorry, I've changed my mind. I don`t want to see you. And I've no idea when I will. And if you can't work out why, then, that's your problem, but any sane mother would be able to, I know that much.

"I think Dishy’s mum was being careful but she did say that his dad had an affair with a neighbour." By that, you means his ex-stepmum-now-surrogate-mum?

"he’s back now but he’s saying he’s thinking about moving back home to save money, which I don’t believe. I get the feeling his Dad is controlling." Could be his mum is planning to divorce his dad and housemate fears his dad won't be able to cope on his own OR hopes his presence will reunite them?

"We are thinking of trying to get closer to Dishy’s school to make it easier on him. " Good idea! And the rental should be cheaper with just a one-bedroom, perhaps with a box-room if you're lucky or a sofa that can be slept on. Ooh, where's your mum gone? Anywhere exciting? "I find the exercises really BORING, but I gotta do it and it is getting helping. " Try doing them to music? Which reminds me - did you find your First Aid box in the end? Where was it? Haha, had Dishy misplaced it in the fridge during his fog? Yep, we seem to have covered everything for now. :-) If you two aren't too busy, though, would you mind answering some posts? I've done a good handful but, as I go very involved and deep, I've now run out of time again. No worries if you can't, but - don't ask, don't get, and all that. Laters, gaters!

Haaaaang on a minute, Lily! Cramp in your foot¿ That's in my list of symptoms up there! Have you caught it now, but, like Scopes, just mildly?

Hi, Yeah I did pick up on foot cramps from your list of symptoms. I have also been feeling really tired too. Like you, I’ve been automatically eating things that were high in iron, and I’ve learnt that’s my body telling me I’m low in iron. So got a blood test and I am anaemic…again. This time gp want to look into why I keep getting anaemic. Also I’ve been worrying more so I wouldn’t be surprised if I have it mildly especially since housemate actually had it too and had a positive test. There probably loads of people going around with symptoms feeling a bit crap, anxious and depressed and it could be long covid. 🤷‍♀️ You ok Scopes? You haven’t got covid have you? since Dishy’s call with Bum he has been quiet and says he feels numb. Knows he’s suppressing his anger . His last counselling sesssion he found really hard too. I have also said to him what you said above and I think taken it in. He said didn’t trust Bum to book the flights in half term and it felt pointless giving her the dates but another part of him was hopeful that this time she might actually do what she said and stay near by. He admits he finds it really hard to get angry with her . I personally would of told her (or if it had been dud) to F off :-). I’m so tempted to answer the next time she calls and tell her he’s got worse and see how she reacts. I wish Dishy was with me the last time I saw dud, so he could of witnessed my reply when dud demanded to know what my problem was with him. Dud still trying to set up that meeting with me, my mum and him btw. Not going to happen! And yeah you’re right, I’m not driving him to see Bum when she’s here, I doubt my foot will be better and even if it is, I don’t want undo boring physio exercises by driving for 2 hours just to see her Anyway last night me and dishy had an argument 🤦‍♀️ over something small. He has no problem confronting me when he thinks I’ve done something! He Came home from work in a really bad mood (I’m gonna to add mood swings to his symptom list!!) and wasn’t happy with me because his step bro had texted our group chat during the day wanting to meet up sometime. He gave a date when he was free. I texted back saying don’t think we had anything going on that day. Giving room for dishy to saying yes no or whatever. Then his bro was talking about meeting up somewhere at a pub or something (which I can see now prob would have made Dishy anxious). So dishy had a go at me for committing us to this meet up with his step bro and told me he would reply to his family meet ups and I’ll do the same with my family …but that’s the thing, atm, he is very bad at replying to family and friends! And I didn’t commit us to anything grr. Next time I will just stay silent. I was also conscious that his step bro has broken up with his gf, so maybe he needs to talk or distract himself (I did say this to dishy). I wasn't really in a good mood either, got lots of uni work going on and if I had been in better mood I might been able step back and handle it a bit differently…but I wasn’t. It ended with me telling him go and talk to his counsellor (he had a counselling session) or even better go and call bloody Bum because that’s really where his anger was coming from. Coz I’m not going to be his punchbag. So…he went off to his counselling session, I went off to my book club. He did text with a emoji hand wave and sad face when I was out, but I wasn’t in the mood to communicate because there are ways of talking to people if somethings annoyed you…but on reflection he’s not in a good place is he so he’s not going to be that thoughtful ? 🫤 He doesn’t like committing to things atm because he then worries if he going to be feeling ok on the day. But in the Easter hols he was testing himself, going off on his own to the shops and walks and a few times he became anxious he still did pit again the next day. When he did go back to work he was quite positive and set up a quiet corner in the classroom. There were glimpses of the old Dishy. Anyway I’m sure we’ll make up. My mum went to Crete! I was quite jealous and she did ask if me and dishy wanted to go too but dishy isn’t up going away where yet and it felt wrong to go without him. I do think he could do with a hol tho but I’m not pushing that yet. Also her friends daughter (who’s around my age) went too and I used to play with her when we were younger and she was a bossy, pretentious little cow so didn’t fancy seeing her! By the sounds of it she hasn’t change much. My mum said she was a diva on hol and her friend was stressed out half the time. Don’t think it was that relaxing! Now not so jealous! We did eventually find the first aid box and it was in Dishy’s car! in the back, shoved under the passenger seat… Have been answering some posts and will keep looking out for ones I can answer.

Yep, does sound like you've got it somewhat. PS they're calling the post-Omicron long-covid Stealth Covid. since Dishy’s call with Bum he has been quiet and says he feels numb. Knows he’s suppressing his anger . His last counselling sesssion he found really hard too. I have also said to him what you said above and I think taken it in. It may not be suppression, it may be putting it in the Pending (middle) Tray just for now. Men as young as him can't yet think with roused emotions in the mix, so he has to refuse to let them stick their oar in while he's processing all the latest data. RE-processing, I mean. Remember, he filed Sheet A in Filing Folder B last time, whereas, now he will have realised it should have gone in File A...which will apply to a lot of old sheets. So he's an intelligent, specialist filing clerk who - snowed-under already - now has to go back and re-do a lot of LAST month's filing on top!

(Internet's a bit iffy so I'm doing shorter messages) "He admits he finds it really hard to get angry with her " Then he will have to release his anger on his grandparents, her parents, instead, as the original perps (not mentioning that you could spend the rest of your life tracing back to medievil times to find the genuine original!). And not TO them, obviously. ABOUT them. "My granddad and grandmum must have been REALLY SHIT PARENTS because - LOOK..." etc., and "...the rotten bstds!"... I appreciate he's having trouble where you werent (so much). You had one good parent left, didn't you. He doesn't. And although it's great to have a surrogate - nobody can replace your mother, that position IS unique...which is why adopteds feel torn at how they feel towards having been told the truth and having learned the truth. Personally I don't agree with it. Except where it was never the mother herself's choice to give up her baby, but got persuaded or forced to. All the information really translates to is, Someones who should have wanted you, didn't. But we - who technically shouldn't have - did. Bit like shoving the kid in a freezing cold bath before then shoving them into a tepid (inadequate) bath and going, OOH, ISN'T THAT LOVELY AND WARM? Yes, it's warmer than freezing. But I was born to be in an ACTUALLY warm bath - so I'm still in a position of Hard-Done-By, aren't I. WHEREAS!...back when kids weren't ever told, they went on to enjoy normal, perfectly happy lives. Surely THAT is the paradigm - a happy kid? So whose great idea was it to tell all adoptives the truth? The SOLUTION is to APPLY INTELLIGENCE to the selection process and tell only the ones who'll benefit, and not the ones whose welfare will be harmed, possibly forever. (Duh) So anyway. Step-mum is better than no mum but... it's like, during a once-in-a-lifetime visit to a 5-Star restaurant, getting served the most amazing Chateau Briand. Which is GREAT. But what you ACTUALLY wanted AND ORDERED, was the Lobster. So you had a good parent as your sense of security safetynet, still, whereas all he has is a kindly lady who's become incredibly fond of him. It'll take more time than yours did, Lils.

" I’m so tempted to answer the next time she calls and tell her he’s got worse and see how she reacts" Who cares how she reacts, really. The object is purely to help keep her away from him. Although, I do know what you mean- I'd be interested too. The menu could include: be frosty and refuse to discuss it further (suddenly claiming it's none of your business where last time they demonstrated it absolutely was), put the phone down, yell at you but not put the phone down, start trying to shred your character to make you give-way to her judgement, agree with your request to give him quarantine/space but then turn up two hours later on the doorstep uninvited, ring his brother to get him to make Dishy speak to her,... like the song about leaving your lover, here too are there 50 ways, Jack. Where there's an unhealthy will, there's an unhealthy way.

You could secretly record your dad next time, for Dishy to see? But it's not about not knowing how, it`s about not being or feeling, ready. He's got to be in the Zone. "And yeah you’re right, I’m not driving him to see Bum when she’s here, I doubt my foot will be better and even if it is, I don’t want undo boring physio exercises by driving for 2 hours just to see her " Very sensible, modom. Very good attitude. Own Oxygen Mask First (tick!).

"Anyway last night me and dishy had an argument 🤦‍♀️ over something small. He has no problem confronting me when he thinks I’ve done something!" Yes, because he feels safe and comfortable with you, enough to have a normal relationship argument when it's time over overdue cos it had to be shelved. I'm just glad your relationship has got back on track to begin with. Also, the YOU DIDN'T CONFER, YOU MADE A UNILATERAL DECISION LIKE YOU'RE SINGLE OR THE KEEPER OF ME argument is a bog-standard one, happens in ALL normal romances once they've hit true long-term coupledom. He's also, while he's down there, PRACTISING standing-up to his mum next time including practising shining a torch on all his boundary-line fences (good! He's learned where they all are!). He'll be doing that to show-off about it to himself via you, as well. Don't take the temperature and force personally. But do remove yourself with a reassurance to talk again later if ever it gets too much. He quite possibly doesn't trust his stepbro. And possibly he feels you inadvertenly helped stepbro to (as usual) trample his fences...and there was Dishy, having only just finished giving the buggers a lovely lick of White paint and standing-back to admire them! Not your fault, you weren't to know, but... too tempting as a practise-run: he doesn't have a mum, he's gonna use you whom he trusts even more than stepmum to play mum here and there. It probably feels insulting to you, as in - Oh, so, aren't we a firm couple yet?! Course you are. But he's going OTT with the height of the fences, bit like a High Jumper. If you want to jump 7 feet, you practise with clearing 8, so that during the high-pressure real-deal competition when your performance can be hampered by nerves, you'll manage the 7 (ta-daa). He's bad at replying because he doesn't want to - ever again or yet. He doesn't know yet. He does KNOW you were trying to take one of his loads off. Any fool could. And same for the anger actually being about his brother taking away Dishy's right to control over his own life and business (despite it might not have been like that on this occasion, just reminiscent). Expect an apology at some point. However, reading further. For all you know, stepbro used to try to steal his girlfriends. Mmmmmmmm... I think I personally would have given him a hall-pass for this one, given the circs as you say. You did overstep the mark and provide the gateway to Rights-denying, whether you'd meant to or just been under slimy stepbro's influence whereby you got the impression this was normal for how their family operates. I think you both owe one another half an apology each - for the accidental but unfair boo-boo and for the unwittingly overly unfair over-angry response in reaction. And then agree the stepbro (trusting Dishy's demonstrated fear there) is a sneaky, over-bossy arsehole OR isn't aware of his insensitive, inconsiderate way of being. I think you should both pick up stepbro and use him as a baseball bat on Bum's head. Problem solved! LOL "He doesn’t like committing to things atm because he then worries if he going to be feeling ok on the day." Yup! "But in the Easter hols he was testing himself, going off on his own to the shops and walks and a few times he became anxious he still did pit again the next day. When he did go back to work he was quite positive and set up a quiet corner in the classroom. There were glimpses of the old Dishy. Anyway I’m sure we’ll make up." Are you taking bets? Cos I could do with a bit of extra cash at the mo? (Worth a try LOL) "My mum went to Crete!" VERY nice. (Did she have to take a lateral flow test before flying - and again for flying back?) "I was quite jealous and she did ask if me and dishy wanted to go too but dishy isn’t up going away where yet and it felt wrong to go without him. I do think he could do with a hol tho but I’m not pushing that yet." GOD, no! His intray looks like Mt bloody Everest at the moment! And getting most of this filing done is the very faucet for turning neg emotions off in order to FEEL like one! God no. NO SCHEDULE PRESSURE, PLEASE. That's an unhealthy, over-capitalist world demand that, far from speeding people up, just bogs and slows them down. His processing will take as long as it takes and that is that, I'm afraid. "Also her friends daughter (who’s around my age) went too and I used to play with her when we were younger and she was a bossy, pretentious little cow so didn’t fancy seeing her! By the sounds of it she hasn’t change much." Hasn't she? Well, we know what that means, don`t we, children? "My mum said she was a diva on hol and her friend was stressed out half the time. Don’t think it was that relaxing! Now not so jealous!" Aw. Your poor mum, having her holiday practically ruined like that. "We did eventually find the first aid box and it was in Dishy’s car! in the back, shoved under the passenger seat…" Knew it. "Have been answering some posts and will keep looking out for ones I can answer." Thank-you so much Lils, I really really appreciate it. And no need to worry about Dishy. He's doing all the right things and doing them pretty thoroughly, and doing all the inevitable things, like overreacting and making his boundary fences too high and too tight (8ft guarantees 7ft). It's not personal, it's just concurrently happening and getting caught up with the otherwise normal, couple disagreements proceedings. He didn't say anything nasty. He just said (ranted) DON'T TOUCH MY STUFF, THAT'S MY STUFF, AND I DON'T HAVE MUCH LEFT AS IT IS, AND ESPECIALLY DON'T HAND ANY OF MY STUFF TO THAT DOMINEERING STEPBROTHER OF MINE - IN FACT, JUST TO BE SAFE: DON'T TOUCH MY STUFF AT AAAALLL, EVER AGAIN. (He doesn't mean it. You'll see).

Oh btw, forgot to say - Since he's shown (paddy-ed) his disapproval of you involving yourself in all or any family matters - SCRATCH the plan about telling his Bum he's worse, or saying anything full-stop. Just - "Oh, hello - I'll see if he's in", then pressing the mute button as you trot to his room to tell him she's on the phone - and that you've put her on mute so he'll need to take it off. And that's your job done. :-) Tempting as it is, I don't advise you omit to tell him who the caller is...., tempting though it is. Nor, likewise, do I recommend you agreeing to play messenger thus letting him off his own rule not to touch ANY business that's his, if he should respond by asking you to tell her he's out. Tempting though that is, too. Very. That would be giving in to bloodymindedness, using semantics and other split hairs. Unfortunately. (LOL) If he does indeed ask, just say, "After what happened last time, I really don't think I should, thanks". And then he'll get what he asked for and, like ALL demands made on-impulse (angry one, at that), end up wishing he'd been more careful about what he'd wished for. And all because you showed respect in taking him at his word. (Insert still-untarnished Halo and say TINGGGGG!)

Any update, Senorina? And are you still alive, Scopes?

Hey, yep there is an update, not been a great weekend for dishy . He stood up to Bum on Saturday. I knew he was working up to it, just didn’t think it would be quite so soon. She called and at first he ignored it but then called her back. They mostly Skype because apparently she likes to see him. He called her back on audio call and she got angry and was like ‘why I can’t see you?’ ‘Dishy!!!’ ‘What is wrong with your laptop? Call me again so I can see you!’. Ugh, not demanding at all. He told her he didn’t want to do a video call and said he’s really unhappy with her so called planned visit. She DID say she would book flights around the dates, otherwise what was the point in him giving them to her and she DID say she would stay close by. He’s not going drive to her or ask anyone else to. She’s never shown any empathy for his anxiety/long omicron or ever really cared and so he’s had enough. There was silence for a bit while she took this all in, then she replied in French, which Dishy translated after that she didn’t like any of the hotels near us, still thinks he could have got special permission to get time off to see her, and OBVIOUSLY she would have paid for him to stay at the hotel at the weekends he came to visit (that was never mentioned but still wouldn’t of made a difference). And what does he mean he’s had enough? apparently she ranted on about how much she does care, she Skypes him all the time…Hmm. Birthdays? Christmas? Being a nice, caring parent in general? Then she wanted details about his relationship with his dud, because she knows that isn’t a good relationship either, he didn’t give her any details. She then told him she wasn’t prepared to change her arrangements and dishy said well I won’t be seeing you then, and I’m having some space from both of you. Then he said bye. He then panicked wondering if he had done the right thing, he’s never spoken to her like that before and I had to reassure him that he did. He needs to keep reminding himself of all the reasons why and not doubt himself. He also didn’t shout or anything (not really a shouty person), he was just very firm. step mum/mum came round the next day and he talked a lot to her and he seemed a bit more happier. Ugh I’ve been worried about him all day today, until he texted to say he was ok. I know that the next few days or weeks, (probably until Bum has been and gone on her uk visit, if she still comes? Who knows) are going to hard for him. I talked to my mum too. She can relate in some ways, I told her I was worried Dishy now isn’t going to cope and that one day he going to come home from work and not go back again. Then really go down hill. She said she doesn’t get that impression that he’s struggling at work and she had conversations with him. Then she reminded me of when her dud split up she still went to work ( at the time I did wonder how she was coping ), and she was anxious driving there and back but she didn’t have a choice. also she saw her job really good distraction, and because she was in charge of 20 something kids, she was able to just switch off which is what she thinks that’s what dishy does. Theres a few interesting threads going on at the moment!

"He stood up to Bum on Saturday. I knew he was working up to it, just didn’t think it would be quite so soon." Well, it was deep and heavy enough that he got all Voilet-Elizabeth over the interruption called "his stuff", didn't he, so was clearly really heavily-immersed in something, enough that he finished and hit a conclusion/epiphany. Guess this was it...couldn't keep it to himself for another minute. "‘why I can’t see you?’ ‘Dishy!!!’ ‘What is wrong with your laptop? Call me again so I can see you!’. Ugh, not demanding at all." As a habit, I'll bet. Because, what's wrong with, "Oh, dear, sweetie, I can't see you. Is there a reason or can you call back so that I can?' But then, Narcs don't like to ask what's wrong, for fear of having to answer to something. "He told her he didn’t want to do a video call and said he’s really unhappy with her so called planned visit. She DID say she would book flights around the dates, otherwise what was the point in him giving them to her and she DID say she would stay close by. He’s not going drive to her or ask anyone else to. She’s never shown any empathy for his anxiety/long omicron or ever really cared and so he’s had enough." VERY impressive! Straight, factual, calm, adult, BRAVE (admitting it hurts),, to-the-point...no ad hominem anywhere (pff, doesn't even NEED it with her...just the truth alone is enough!). Very gentlemanly - like it. "There was silence for a bit while she took this all in," Thought-up a reply, more like. "then she replied in French," Why? Could she tell she was on speakerphone? "which Dishy translated after that she didn’t like any of the hotels near us, still thinks he could have got special permission to get time off to see her, and OBVIOUSLY she would have paid for him to stay at the hotel at the weekends he came to visit (that was never mentioned but still wouldn’t of made a difference)." Then why is this the first time he's heard about it? What's she revealing there, anyway? That she nurses these little resentments at being (- her over-defensive perception -) "hard-done-by" by him, rather than say so at the time?... and then, in furtive response, makes a counter-move that she knows darn well will insult the hell out of him? I.e. coward's revenge? How old is she - FIVE? (- rhetorical). How vindictive. And how un-motherly. But then...she is only 5 and in a permanent mood so.. "And what does he mean he’s had enough? apparently she ranted on about how much she does care, she Skypes him all the time…Hmm. Birthdays? Christmas? Being a nice, caring parent in general? " Precisely, Lily. Yes, she's not going to apologise or see the error of her ways - just deny it or minimise it. As far as any healthy mother's concerned, you can call your son as often as you like but if that doesn't include his (ffs) birthday, then, all those other calls get re-classified as Take-Take-Take but NO GIVING. Ranted, did she? So she's not under-assertive, then - as might ordinarily excuse the lack of citing her (so she claims too late) gripe? "Then she wanted details about his relationship with his dud, because she knows that isn’t a good relationship either, he didn’t give her any details." What's THAT got to do with anything?! Looking to blame his feelings on his dad, as if Dishy's just taking his moody out on her instead. Next she'll be accusing him of having PMT! "She then told him she wasn’t prepared to change her arrangements and dishy said well I won’t be seeing you then, and I’m having some space from both of you. Then he said bye. " Woah. VERY PROFESSIONAL. You'd think he'd been doing that sort of thing for years! "He then panicked wondering if he had done the right thing, he’s never spoken to her like that before and I had to reassure him that he did. He needs to keep reminding himself of all the reasons why and not doubt himself. He also didn’t shout or anything (not really a shouty person), he was just very firm. step mum/mum came round the next day and he talked a lot to her and he seemed a bit more happier. " Yes, you're GOING to have a giant reaction to having dared stand at the cliff-edge like that. Yes - again - he WAS firm, wasn't he. "step mum/mum came round the next day and he talked a lot to her and he seemed a bit more happier. "" What brilliant timing - talk about As If To Order?! (Cough! - a bit more happy / a bit happier) DID HE TAPE IT? "he’s never spoken to her like that before" HAHA - he never got to hear YOU, back at that stage - towards your dud! "Ugh I’ve been worried about him all day today, until he texted to say he was ok. I know that the next few days or weeks, (probably until Bum has been and gone on her uk visit, if she still comes? Who knows) are going to hard for him. " Well-envisaged, modom. Particularly the day she's due to fly off. Although...miracles can happen? I would see that he sticks to his words and guns, though, Lils. Backing down after all that effort and golden opportunity will have his self-esteem drooping to the floor and kicking itself on the way down. So anyway, he is now officially Going No Contact aka Undergoing a Separation (Godsend in scary disguise). It's her job to save her position now. She's the adult. And if she can't BE the adult, as includes sacrificing your (this case, false so unwarranted to begin with!) pride in order to mend that oh-so-imperative fence with your own baby, then she ain't an adult ergo cannot be his or anyone's mother ergo he's lost nothing, nothing at all...just found out what he had (this case, lacked) in the first place, all along. Maybe there's HALF a mum still to be had, and he can supplement that with Surrogate Mum? You wouldn't get HER coming out with such childish - AND child-to-child - CRAP. I think he might benefit from thinking of Smum (lol) as his mum and Bum as his forever-sibling? "I talked to my mum too. She can relate in some ways, I told her I was worried Dishy now isn’t going to cope and that one day he going to come home from work and not go back again. Then really go down hill. She said she doesn’t get that impression" (Me neither) " that he’s struggling at work and she had conversations with him. Then she reminded me of when her dud split up she still went to work ( at the time I did wonder how she was coping ), and she was anxious driving there and back but she didn’t have a choice. also she saw her job really good distraction, and because she was in charge of 20 something kids, she was able to just switch off which is what she thinks that’s what dishy does." It's what everyone does. (Great in small doses but one shouldn't take it to extreme or it becomes about grieving avoidance.) "Theres a few interesting threads going on at the moment!" Aren't there just. Wish there weren't. Wish I could just wave a wand and have every Malignant Narc on the planet disappear. So, so, so sick of them. But then, I was born sick, sick of them so... lol.

PS: ".Then she reminded me of when her dud split up she still went to work ( at the time I did wonder how she was coping ), and she was anxious driving there and back but she didn’t have a choice. also she saw her job really good distraction, and because she was in charge of 20 something kids, she was able to just switch off which is what she thinks that’s what dishy does."" Well, yes - of course! Sorry - has it not hit either of you two yet (by which I mean you and your mum)? Haha! You're dating your mother in another 'casing', Lily. Same job 'n all! :-D Tom was mini-dud (you now realise - yes?) It's how it works, isn't it! Still - why wouldn't you. With a super-mum (mum and dad rolled into one), you're completely role-modelled. :-) What about you to Dishy - who are you? Are you step/surrogate mum? (You know Camilla Parker-Bowles is the spitting image, including personality, of Charles' beloved nanny, right?)

(Psst! Got anything else you could do with asking your mum? :-) ) (Haha, love it!)

Note she avoided the long-Omicron part, just didn't address it. Couldn't think of any plausible excuse for that one, eh, so just side-stepped it entirely while inserting a non-feature, namely, paying for the hotel. PS: Have you been following the Depp-Heard case via YouTube or whatnot? Have you, Scopes?

Know what he's learned, though? Regular neglect or abuse, it turns out, is NOT a normal, just par-for-the-course downside of every human relationship...the rough that you expect to have to take with the smooth. (And mainly YOU showed him that, Lils, along with stepmum.) When they say rough, they mean rough COMPARITIVE to smooth. Not pigging combine harvester or giant cheese-grater over your bare thighs rough. And they mean occasionally. And whilst I'm down there - same goes for Worse in "for better or worse". Can you two AFFORD a bottle of champagne this weekend? I would? :-)

How about a bottle of Chardonnay?

Yes I have been watching the Depp and Heard case. It’s been my entertainment for the last however many days 😃. Poor Johnny Depp. I love his sense of humour though and his replies. Her legal team are sh*t aren’t they? The lawyer objecting to his own question haha. Hi scopes 👋🏻 you ok?

LOL - Spoiler alert! - I haven't got that far yet. But yes....and check out her (er) lawyer's past client list, at (ugh) who they in recent years chose to defend (after all, any legal firm does have the total freedom to politely decline to represent someone). Likewise, KNOWING who they'd lowered themselves for, to represent (no doubt purely for the huge earnings) - are we REALLY supposed to believe that any innocent victim would choose someone with their track record? Pff, victim-empaths want empathic (- usually vocational) lawyers. To me, ones choice of solicitor speaks volumes, even just for starters. There again, maybe the decent firms capable of this size and visibility of case, refused to take her on, and her firm were all that were left? Either/or...still amounts to the same, doesn't it. But it is interesting if her Brief DID end up objecting to his own question. Was it because it led them too far down that road, where he didn't want things to go? Or because he seemingly forgot along the way that it had originally been his own line of enquiry? Problems concentrating, anyone? Nah, I wouldn't buy that. That would smack more to me of lawyer suddenly realising the client's been dishonest over something case-pivotal, and suddenly (desperately, hence clumsily) sabotaging as subtly as he might get away with (planting a seed-style), in order to save his and his firm's face later. You watched it - what do you think? ****** I meant to add, though, to the above: "he could have got special permission to get time off to see her" Which I suppose would have sounded like this: Hi Mr Head Teacher...I know I've not been in the job very long and realise it's short notice, but I have to inform(!) you that I'm expecting a visit from a VIP so am going to have to take that week off. I'm sure you can understand and fully-appreciate how much more important this person is, than your business, my job, and our obligation to those kids, and won't object, though? / Oh, of COURSE - and please tell Her Majesty that I said - ANYTHING YOU WANT OR NEED, MA'AM!, WE'RE ALL HERE TO SERVE YOU. A woman of her age can't claim she doesn't know how the working world works, especially vocational. So what is this nonsense - a test of just how much he loves (enough to jeopardise his new job) thus wants to see her (DESPITE she constantly behaves so off-puttingly selfishly and demandingly)? (GET REAL, woman! Whether about how the world works if you REALLY are that spoilt and naiive, or about what an insult-on-legs you are, even towards your own precious baby! Aaaaaarrrrrgh!!!!!) (Sorry lol) Yeah. Either Dishy's done her and thereby himself a favour (will wake her up to herself) or, himself alone. Win/Win! He's got his surrogate, MORE than happy and willing to be complicit as his lifelong safetynet or replacement. And, of course, he's still got you - and bessie (house)mate. And whatever work colleagues, once they get better acquainted. Does he need a replacement dad yet? Or, does he plan to take him on last - or alternatively, feel he's not actually a permanent problem, more just out of his tree due to stress and will go back to normal once this is all over? And what about his brother? Has he explained that incident yet? ****************************************** Yeah, "Whap'nin, Scopester?". Have you had your assessment visit and was it good news?

And which way are you leaning over the Dep-Heard case? Him...Her...or both as bad as each other?

Hey, I’m waiting to see what dishy wants to do about his dud, he hasnt mentioned him at all, at the moment there is too much Bum stuff going on. I can’t think of a dud replacement for him really. He has uncles’ on his duds side but doesn’t really talk to them much. He talks to a lot is his gran ( his duds mum), and I think he’d quite like to go and visit her when he feels better, but she lives round the corner from his dud and he looks after her. Poor her! His step bro is his step mums son, and I’ve realised, since the text mistake, that dishys not that close to him and kind of keeps him at arms length. When we have met up with him in the past most of the time stepmum has been there. So maybe step bro does annoy him or something. Ugh, I bet Bum is a nightmare going through security at the airport and on the plane too, like dud is. We went to stay at my mums this weekend and came back to a voice Mail from Bum, in French, of course. Which started off very me, me, me, poor me, (as usual), she’s been depressed all week. Apparently she wanted to meet my mum and dud too. what? did she expect my mum to travel to her too, she didn’t mention that before either, she’s just making stuff up because she’s never shown any interest before in me or my family. Whenever I’ve said hi to her before on Skype, she’s always been like ‘oh…hello’ then started talking in French to dishy (which he hates). I gave up a while ago. Anyway Then she said she supposed she could stay near by, she’s looked again, and there is an adequate hotel (oh really, so this ‘adequate hotel’ just suddenly appeared did it…obviously she didn’t even look before) but only for a night or two. She actually gave the name of the hotel and told dishy to look at it for her …demanding again, and trying to draw him back in…I looked it up, it’s 4* hotel with good reviews, what more does she want? Sorry it’s not 5* star Bum, but you would think seeing dishy was more important 🙄. She told dishy to call her back with his thoughts on it. Omg she just gets worse. He didn’t call her back and says he isn’t going to, so that’s good hes not changing his mind. He said he was too angry at not being taken seriously when he told her he needs space and offended that she’d only stay nearby for a night or two, when she’s in the uk for 3 weeks and she just thinks things can carry on as normal with no acknowledgement. He had a sleepless night Sunday night. Grr so annoying because last week he was ok after standing up to her. I thought he was going to get anxious again but he didn’t. We went the train to get to my mums, he seemed relaxed and staying there too. But then he came back to that 🙄. Thanks again Bum. We went to my mums because auntie had invited all of her fiancé family round so we could all meet before the wedding (still months away). Lots of people in quite small space. Most of aunties fiancés family were ok…apart from his brother, who was drunk, and kept on paying my mum lots of compliments and suggesting they go out. My mum handled it well, told him she’s very happily single, moved away from him but he kept on trying. In the end auntie told him to leave her alone or he’d be uninvited to the wedding. Let’s hope that happens. Think my mum might need to ask one of her male friends to be her pretend date at the wedding. I also really didn’t like that my Older cousin and family wasn’t there. The reason was he’s never liked aunties fiancé (I’m still not she on him either). Meg and younger cousin were, but she told me there have been arguments between auntie and cousins. Hmm, not good, I sent older cousin a hello text and see if he says anything to me. We did have drinks this weekend :-). Me bro dishy went to the pub after aunties. Bro can now drink, and I owned him some birthday drinks…and he was recovering from a hangover Sunday…hmm should of remembered he’s still a lightweight. I think Depp and Heard are probably as bad as each other ….but Ugh I don’t Her at all. I think she’s really fake with all her pretend crying, shes doing a really bad, over dramatic acting job. I’m looking forward to her being cross examined :-). I think her and Meghan Markle (don’t like her either) would make really good friends.

"at the moment there is too much Bum stuff going on. " HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! Too funny!!

"I’m waiting to see what dishy wants to do about his dud, he hasnt mentioned him at all, at the moment there is too much Bum stuff going on." (still laughing...only just calmed back down enough to type!) Yeah, fair enough. Bet you're dying to, though. LOL "I can’t think of a dud replacement for him really. He has uncles’ on his duds side but doesn’t really talk to them much. He talks to a lot is his gran ( his duds mum), and I think he’d quite like to go and visit her when he feels better, but she lives round the corner from his dud and he looks after her. Poor her!" I think it's probably safest to stay away from his dad or mum's siblings. Methinks the clue is in the fact he doesn't talk to them much. I meant, a Godfather or long-term family friend? Why poor her? Has he said his dad doesn't take care of her properly or is mean to her? "His step bro is his step mums son, and I’ve realised, since the text mistake, that dishys not that close to him and kind of keeps him at arms length. When we have met up with him in the past most of the time stepmum has been there. So maybe step bro does annoy him or something." Noted. "Ugh, I bet Bum is a nightmare going through security at the airport and on the plane too, like dud is." Or in other ways, I'm sure. "We went to stay at my mums this weekend and came back to a voice Mail from Bum, in French, of course." Yes. That's so that you can't be privy to it in its entirety, in HER voice, you can only hear it delivered by Dishy - which is basically Chinese Whispers, whereby what's lost are all those other little real-time noise clues, like inflections, subtle pauses. All those things supplement and heighten the meaning. You then can't feel what he's feeling, or certainly not the true impact, nor inform him of things he's failed to notice. BECAUSE they cannot admit any blame - someone else has to be. So,, as equally as it could be Dishy's dad - it could be you. YOU making him think these things, feeding him phrases for standing for himself, etc....poisoning him against her (yawn). A NORMAL mother who wanted the conversation to remain private FOR HEALTHY REASONS, would simply ask Dishy outright whether he would mind if they or at least she, conduct their sensitive conversation in French. SHE SNEAKS IT IN - but FORCIBLY. Because she doesn't want a No and she doesn't want an equal fight. It's the same with narc ex husbands where there are kids. The kids can't possibly have their own minds and opinions enough to be disapproving of glorious-Him, so it must be their mother, turning them against him! It's never them. "Which started off very me, me, me, poor me, (as usual), she’s been depressed all week. Apparently she wanted to meet my mum and dud too. what?" What's this complete nonsense carroting attempt come threat (whichever works best)? "did she expect my mum to travel to her too, she didn’t mention that before either, she’s just making stuff up because she’s never shown any interest before in me or my family. Whenever I’ve said hi to her before on Skype, she’s always been like ‘oh…hello’ then started talking in French to dishy (which he hates). I gave up a while ago." Yep! And, no, she doesn't expect her to. It was just a very unskilfully(NOTED!) fashioned carrot or threat (depending on how you feel about your own parents), as I say. "Anyway Then she said she supposed she could stay near by, she’s looked again, and there is an adequate hotel (oh really, so this ‘adequate hotel’ just suddenly appeared did it…obviously she didn’t even look before)" I say, you're getting very good at this, aren't you?! Yup. "but only for a night or two." Ah. That old chestnut. Make Mohammad come to the mountain and Mohammed's appropriate length of visiting time with the mountain WILL GET IT! "She actually gave the name of the hotel and told dishy to look at it for her …demanding again, and trying to draw him back in…I looked it up, it’s 4* hotel with good reviews, what more does she want? Sorry it’s not 5* star Bum, but you would think seeing dishy was more important 🙄. She told dishy to call her back with his thoughts on it. Omg she just gets worse. " HAHA! Sorry - your last sentance tickled me. YOU GO, GIRL! "He didn’t call her back and says he isn’t going to," Woah! Ku-DOS! "so that’s good hes not changing his mind. He said he was too angry at not being taken seriously when he told her he needs space" Yup. Slave doesn't GET to make such decisions. Those are Master's decisions. Alternatively, Master doesn't ever take Slave seriously (- Slave has PMT). Alternatively, Master DOES, but she just doesn't care. Doesn't CARE what HE wants. And that is basically the Master-Slave dynamic all over. He STARTED as her slave. And because she's a Narc and cannot update (aka change), he will always be her wickle slave. NOT. Kudos to him for ignoring it. But tell him not to delete it. He'll enjoy listening back to it one day soon. It'll be VERY cathartic. " and offended that she’d only stay nearby for a night or two, when she’s in the uk for 3 weeks" Yup - as per my above -"or the duration gets it!!!" "and she just thinks things can carry on as normal with no acknowledgement. He had a sleepless night Sunday night." Understandable. He had re-re-re-filing to do, called: SHE IS *WORSE* THAN I REALISED! I CAN'T EVEN DEMAND MY PERFECT, ADULT RIGHT TO HAVE NO CONTACT FOR A WHILE! Let's see what her next move will be, then. "Grr so annoying because last week he was ok after standing up to her. I thought he was going to get anxious again but he didn’t. We went the train to get to my mums, he seemed relaxed and staying there too. But then he came back to that 🙄. Thanks again Bum. " This two steps forward, one back, is very common. Remember? *******I in all seriousness, formally advise that he text her (as briefly as possible) to inform her straight, that, SINCE she has shown she cannot respect his perfectly rightful request to be left alone until ready to re-make contact - she now has left him NO CHOICE but to temporarily block her for the afore-stated duration (but starting again FROM NOW) of the Time-Out from her and his "farter". AND THEN BLOCK. (Oh, look...she's ended up with a WORSE consequence because of her worsened conduct. Excellent.) He can then forget about them both and not have to be background-braced all the time that one of them might crash in again at any point (possibly the worst).****** "We went to my mums because auntie had invited all of her fiancé family round so we could all meet before the wedding (still months away)." Oh dear. Well, sad fact is, we've got enough on our plates already. I only hope, therefore, that auntie knows what she's doing. But at least this time she's got her re-forged family ties behind her. She'll tell your mum (probably all of you!) the minute he acts-up, I'm sure. Oh dear, though... "Lots of people in quite small space. Most of aunties fiancés family were ok…apart from his brother, who was drunk, and kept on paying my mum lots of compliments and suggesting they go out." OMFG. Wow. Brother so determined to (cough! - TICK!) spoil brother's special occasion (by making a main family member uncomfortable from then on!), but at the same time, too cowardly not to do it under cover of "I couldn't help it, I was drunk". Obviously, completely besides the point when too many people just get lovelier and mushier when they're drunk, not obnoxious and offensive. What a boundary smash. (Tick!) So INAPPROPRIATE! (Tick!) And - NO SHAME, look! (Just cowardice covering for it.) (Tick! and Tick!) Well, at least from that we can hope it means that fiance is a victim, not a perp? Just as long as he's not merely a milder version of his brother (tweedledee and tweedledum). "My mum handled it well, told him she’s very happily single, moved away from him but he kept on trying." Well, of course! That's what they do! (TICK!) Just like Bum. INNIT. "In the end auntie told him to leave her alone or he’d be uninvited to the wedding." Ooh! But - Uh-oh. She might have set herself up for some future revenge, there. But - technically (with sane people) - absolutely correct, very ladylike response. And I'm loving her standing-up for your mum like that. What I'm NOT loving... Is... WHERE WAS HER FIANCE? It was HIS job. See it? What - is Auntie marrying a full-grown, red-blooded man or adopting a little boy? *sigh* "Let’s hope that happens. Think my mum might need to ask one of her male friends to be her pretend date at the wedding." GOOD IDEA. BLOODY GOOD IDEA. "I also really didn’t like that my Older cousin and family wasn’t there. The reason was he’s never liked aunties fiancé (I’m still not she on him either). Meg and younger cousin were, but she told me there have been arguments between auntie and cousins. Hmm, not good, I sent older cousin a hello text and see if he says anything to me. " Well, I can see why they can see he's not right for her. However, that doesn't mean they shouldn't respect her wish to have them there with her on her special day. I don't know, really, because I don't have all the data. He might be that terrible, and only older cousin has witnessed it? Yeah, let's see what he says. "We did have drinks this weekend :-). Me bro dishy went to the pub after aunties. Bro can now drink, and I owned him some birthday drinks…and he was recovering from a hangover Sunday…hmm should of remembered he’s still a lightweight. " Haha! The trick is to drink a very large glass of water with a paracetamol or ibuprofen before falling asleep. Otherwise, Orange Juice is good for the morning after (far more effective than Red Bull or coffee - fact). Still... it's not a proper journey into adulthood if you don't experience at least ONE hangover, eh. "I think Depp and Heard are probably as bad as each other ….but Ugh I don’t Her at all. I think she’s really fake with all her pretend crying, shes doing a really bad, over dramatic acting job. I’m looking forward to her being cross examined :-). I think her and Meghan Markle (don’t like her either) would make really good friends." Not sure about Meghan. Look at poor Di. But certainly, I've just sat here and gone YUP! to everything else you've just said. Victim-witnesses do not behave like she is, including the beseeching the whole room in-turn with her eyes, bit, when recounting Depp's allegedly verbal and physical abuse towards her. But at the same time, he's too cocky and seems to be enjoying himself. Maybe it's all a big PR, attention-seeking exercise? Maybe they're getting too old for acting and filming and want to bring out best-sellers that make a one-hit retirement package instead? ...in which case, it'd be the court system that was the true abuse victim. Hmm... I wonder if in the immediate aftermath - or even DURING - a case such as this, tourism levels go up??? I'm either right or just too damned cynical, LOL. Or both?

"and came back to a voice Mail from Bum, in French, of course." Maybe we should update her name? To Derriere?

"Make Mohammad come to the mountain and Mohammed's appropriate length of visiting time with the mountain WILL GET IT!" Tsk. Sorry - wrong way round. Make the mountain come to Mohammad and... Tsk.

PS: Thanks sincerely again, for having stepped-in to reassure Trans, that was really sweet and thoughtful of you.

Oops I was meant to send this last night but feel asleep. Ah, that’s ok, I just didn’t want Trans to leave and not come back because she thought she had done something wrong or offended anyone, when obvs hasn’t. I was hoping to be a second person on her Post :-). Hahaha I realised I put bum stuff after I sent it and then reread what I put … makes it sounds like Dishy got a bum Disease 🦠 or something . I’ve also had to stop myself from writing “Dishy and his bum” or “Dishy’s Bum” a few times too and just put Bum instead. Sooo, yeah, Derriere instead. Dishy hasn’t said if his dud is mean to his gran or not. Step mum got on really well with her and helped her out a lot . She has said when she left his dud, she wished she could of taken Dishy’s gran with her. So sounds like she doesn’t trusts his dud to look after her. His gran is set up on Skype and dishy has tried this with her and said he spent ages starring at close ups of different parts of her face, then when he finally got to see her properly, she didn’t like it and hung up! Something spooked her. Hmm I’m gonna have to ask him about god parents…or family friends. Hopefully in the future step mum might meet someone nice. Dishy’s counsellor also said that he should now block Derriere to stop any more messages getting to him. He’s finding this really hard to do, understands why he should, but he’s hesitating. I’m hoping/encouraging him to do it before this weekend in case Derriere calls him again and leaves him another message. I’m seeing Older cousin and family later today, he is quite keen to meet up and talk. He said it feels like everyone is angry with him (and his wife, not just him then )and they want them to stop being awkward and just get along with aunties fiancé but they have reasons. Good news, Sis told me she’s has dumped horrible bf last week. She said he had been acting very weird after Easter hols. I knew something wasn’t right because he was round last weekend, and he was clingy with her and sis didn’t look happy at all and more like ‘Get. Off.’ She confronted him last week and he has confessed that in the Easter hols he had done *stuff* with another girl. Ugh 😑. I haven’t seen any of the films Heard is in, going by her erm, acting, they’re probably not that good. Depp does seem to be loving the attention a bit too much, maybe it’s because his latest films haven’t been that great either. It continues tomorrow :-D.

"Oops I was meant to send this last night but feel asleep. " LOL, how very dare you. "I was hoping to be a second person on her Post :-)." Me too! She hasn't answered that question yet, though - shall I ask again (when she next posts)? *********** I would say Derriere it is, but it's funnily enough a pain the bum to type each time. What about Mudder? Mud for-short? Or Mugger - Mug for-short? (She muddies everything plus she has a habit of mugging him emotionally, right?) "Dishy hasn’t said if his dud is mean to his gran or not. Step mum got on really well with her and helped her out a lot . She has said when she left his dud, she wished she could of taken Dishy’s gran with her. So sounds like she doesn’t trusts his dud to look after her. His gran is set up on Skype and dishy has tried this with her and said he spent ages starring at close ups of different parts of her face, then when he finally got to see her properly, she didn’t like it and hung up! Something spooked her. " Sounds like gran's a good-un. And - maybe Dishy should tell her she CAN 'take gran' if she wants? She obviously needs more than the one (teenage-friendly) training session, AND where he's with her at her end and, say, Smum (stepmum) is the one on the screen? After all, if she's being neglected, it's important. (Tip: just point to which keys gran has to push...if she DOES it, rather than is just told or shown, she'll more likely remember it.) "Hopefully in the future step mum might meet someone nice. " Yes, there's always that. Could be a long wait, though. "Dishy’s counsellor also said that he should now block Derriere to stop any more messages getting to him. He’s finding this really hard to do, understands why he should, but he’s hesitating. I’m hoping/encouraging him to do it before this weekend in case Derriere calls him again and leaves him another message. " I repeat: if he informs her before doing it - clearly, concisely and calmly, and tells her there's no reason to panic just because he needs a couple of weeks/months to sort his head out about a lot of things, then, although he won't get the (natural but knee-jerk) satisfaction of being 'mad at her' or get to 'punish her (overtly)' - what matters here is simply that he succeeds in getting proper, uninterrupted Time-Out while feeling in total (rightful, IMPORTANT) control and peacefulness. Bear in mind, however, that a part of Dishy might be so unused to her CHASING him that he's finding that flattery somewhat soothing and reassuring? Ask him. If that's the case then, as long as he doesn't take false hope from it, and as long as it makes him STRONGER - there's little harm in him waiting a bit. He probably wants to see how long she persists before giving up. Or how TOO SHORT. Can you relate to that? Me, I don't block. To me, blocking shows you fear them and their influence on you...or that can be how they twist it. I mean, it doesn't MATTER if you block them and do it properly. Because then you ARE impervious. But to me, it's a question of - for how long...before they try coming knocking again a year or so later or whenever. So I OPEN their texts, read them, and then - nothing. Message: Pff...can't even be arsed, what's the point? There's a difference between, "STAY AWAY FROM ME!" and (their knowing me well enough already), "Go ahead, boring punk - make my amused day...you know I'm just gonna take the piss out of you to my friends, anyway, and then use you as (more) research (yay!)". You mustn't ever show bullies fear OR EVEN LEAVE YOUR ACTIONS INTERPRETABLE AS SUCH. So as per usual, it's not what you do it's the WAY THAT YOU DO IT. Fear in this instance needn't even be the usual version. It can just be incredibly strong dread accompanied by a anxiety at the thought of yet more stress and hassle and hitting your head against a brick wall, only to get nowhere all over again. So he must inform her in as humdrum, "no biggie" way as possible so that she trots merrily off and busies herself with her friend. Who CARES if she's falsely reassured? The jury's still out, anyway - that's what this Time-Out IS! He can even make out that, in actual fact, he had already agreed to WORK during her visit period (cost of living and all that) so won't be available ANYWAY - HENCE he sees it that he may as well take advantage of the situation to have his Time-Out when it CAN'T inconvenience her, and she can just concentrate on having fun with her friend this time. (Remember, if you can make it sound like THEY get benefit out of it, they're more likely to agree.) He can tell her what he damn well likes to get her to sit willingly on her hands. Well - she does, doesn't she? Goose and Gander, luv, goose and gander. But yep, I'm with you. Because her trip looms, she'll obviously be wanting to persuade him round beforehand. I think he should inform counsellor of his paralysis on that score and ask for a more customised tack to align with his current level of bravery? He probably feels too precarious, still. After all, it's been very little time since he started actually climbing off the Matrix. Don't you agree? Talk about a pretzel, therefore? He needs a Time-Out in order to garner courage but, yet, demanding the Time-Out takes the very courage he hasn't had a chance to bloody garner yet! That's why I'm suggesting he can just give her one more, far less alarming or even reassuring message and then, if she DOESN'T cease, simply play any messages only when you're there with him to keep him grounded and cynical. How's that? Also, after he's listened, he can listen again and, with your help, note down on a dedicated pad any lies, inconsistencies, contradictions, dual standards, sudden switches in approach (nice-narky-nice-narky) that hit either of you...basically analyse (AND LABEL) the eff out of it. This will serve to switch him to his logical brain hemisphere and let his emotional hemi take a nice, long nap, so he'll calm down fast if anything in the first hearing upset him, plus get his petty but - let's face it - much-needed vengeance or ego-equalising that way. AND heightened education for future narc avoidance or dealing-with reference. Well, anyway - anything new on that score since? "I’m seeing Older cousin and family later today, he is quite keen to meet up and talk. He said it feels like everyone is angry with him (and his wife, not just him then )and they want them to stop being awkward and just get along with aunties fiancé but they have reasons" Peer Pressure, huh? So what did he report? Thing is, Lils, his and his wife's refusal to go probably won't make a blind bit of difference to the exchanging of vows. Unless Auntie fully ruminates over what she's marrying into - going by fiance's oh-so-classy (not) brother, whom 'you clearly can't take anywhere'. (She also needs to note how she was left to deal with it while he and his side did eff-all, which can only be because they didn't find it shocking or are too used to it.) But that depends on her. So if that part can't be stopped then, what is still important - VERY, in fact! - is that she is seen to have a supportive family around her. (Message: don't try it on with us because we're tight). See what he thinks about that angle? Otherwise, fiance will have managed to create a rift already...without even trying! She does NOT want to appear even partway isolated already. So I think Cuz can have his cake and eat it if his mum (and thereby fiance) knows he's coming to show she's loved and protected. IOW, it doesns't have to be a protest in the form of staying away, it can just as easily be a protest in the form of turning up! (Again - not WHAT you do but the way that you do it.) "Good news, Sis told me she’s has dumped horrible bf last week. She said he had been acting very weird after Easter hols. I knew something wasn’t right because he was round last weekend, and he was clingy with her and sis didn’t look happy at all and more like ‘Get. Off.’ She confronted him last week and he has confessed that in the Easter hols he had done *stuff* with another girl. Ugh 😑. " 1. So she can "dump the duds" (hurrah!) 2. And NOW...ALL THE PREVIOUSLY MYSTERIOUS GROWN-UP STUFF THAT PREVENTED HER FULLER UNDERSTANDING ABOUT WHAT AND JUST HOW BAD WHAT "DUD ELDER" DID TO MUM WILL INCREASINGLY CLICK INTO PLACE (hurrah-hurrah!). Takes one to know one (that your mum dated). This, no doubt, was her unwitting point. So am I right in saying you've ALL Dumped A Dud now? Except for Auntie? Well anyway, if guy was clingy BEFORE he "confessed" his crime, then (timing-timing!), it was probably a ploy (and possibly not even true!) to make Sis cling back, out of sudden insecurity and/or urge to compete and be better than the "other woman". Bit characteristic a ploy, huh. And coincidentally similar to, no doubt, what Sis relayed regarding dud to mum, don't you think? (Where's this nipper been getting his dating advice from, we wonder?) ******+ "I haven’t seen any of the films Heard is in, going by her erm, acting, they’re probably not that good. Depp does seem to be loving the attention a bit too much, maybe it’s because his latest films haven’t been that great either. It continues tomorrow :-D." Know what? I don't think I ever have, either! Where are you watching the court footage - YouTube?

PS: I forgot to add re my not blocking and reading: I open and read them EVENTUALLY. But always revealingly late. There's the important diff.

Scopes, Where are you? Are you okay?

Lils, I've been thinking. Another blocker (against just blocking her) could be Dishy's, by-now, dire need to have his day in court with her? Ask him? And if you can tell it appeals - suggest he WRITE to her. See how he reacts to that idea. As long a letter as he likes. (I once wrote 72 pages-worth of, basically, "And another thing!...", LOL.) It's not primarily for her benefit, but his. So he can indulge himself until he's spent. I mean - she clearly doesn't listen to him. It's not as if that wouldn't have escaped his own notice by now, following years and years of it? It can be calm and dignified, as tactful as he likes - or as brutal (but calm and dignified) as he likes. The point is, his forcing HER to do something - and something he shouldn't even need to force her to do in the first place which is what gives him - due to the nature of their relationship - the right to do. (Hence why there's such a thing in life known as, the Complaints Department, innit.) It can fulfil an awful lot of long-neglected needs, can a complaints letter. He can even be cleverly manipulative about it and write it to her AND his father, together (a copy to each). That way, those two bozos (if not true or permanent bozos) will have a need to band up, in the face of, not an enemy but certainly an attacker....specifically, if they've got one each - a conscience-attacker. He'd thereby get to kill two birds with one stone. In terms of its effect on HER (or the pair of them) - EITHER it'll be a wasted case of him screaming into the abyss, or - if he bravely hits her with both barrels (just facts and events, not insults) - prove to be a reality-slap sharp enough to finally open her eyes. But because he gets what he's programmed to expect to happen - an opportunity to rant out her entire Rap Sheet - he will feel A LOT better. And then, if she IS genuinely enlightened and remorseful, talks can begin without said without this overdue resentment turning things heated and hostile. (Because - these urges don't go away, as you yourself know. And just because the receipient proves to be deaf, doesn't take away the powerful catharcism of getting to put it all into words as a long list. Their ears are THEIR business. The victim's needs and need to heal come first.) He might end up not even posting it. But I hope he does. If she knows EXACTLY where she stands and why, then - Narc or just Character Disturbed (still...er...) - she'll know where his boundaries are TO THE NTH MILLIMETRE and will have NO EXCUSE from then-on. She'll be blocked from being able to trample them and still get to play and claim dumb. Innit. Especially as HE HAS IT ALL RECORDED IN WRITING, EVEN-BIGGER-INNIT. So that's another way to block - you block their behaviour under a Sword of Damocles (rightful one): "misbehave one more time and you will have left me no CHOICE not to decide the relationship gets it". ...Useful long-term or even as a starter block, when it's someone that, blocking feels almost sacrilegious to do. I mean... this IS (or "is") his mother and mum and mummy. It's a REALLY dangerous-feeling thing to do...like an execution, like it's going to be irreversible. He MIGHT worry that the relationship IS that incredibly tenuous and precarious, that, one self-assertion too many and, KER-BOOM! Fly it past him? ************* PS: I0m starting to worry about Scopes being so quiet and now, not replying.

Ah Trans has said I can join in. I was happy just reading but yay. Ok, Let’s call Dishy’s mum Mug. Dishy really liked the idea of writing and sending letters to his Mug and dud, and has been writing a lot. I could tell because he almost looked relieved when I suggested this to him and I think this has been a really good outlet for him. He seems a lot more happier. He said his duds letter is a bit different to Mugs. I’m hoping I get to read them, will give me an even bigger insight. There has been one missed call from Mug, a few days ago but no voice message was left this time. Dishy managed to ignore and just concentrated on writing. His Smum has also found out from his gran that his dud is going away soon and they are going to go and visit her and make sure she’s ok. Could be me, but I did say to dishy this might be a trick (I had a feeling) and when they get there, his dud could be there too. dunno why I thought this or if his dud would even do this but he is weird. I just think it’s good to be cautious. Cuz and wife said they are fed up with aunties fiancés comments about them and their kids behaviour. He’s even tried to give them parenting advice (he has grown up kids) . And now Cuz’s kids don’t want to go round to aunties if her fiancé is there. So sounds like he’s not that friendly towards them. Cuz did talk to auntie about this and it stopped for a bit, but then slowly started again. Then the last time they saw auntie and fiancé, Cuz said he really had enough, and lost his patience with fiancé. They told them Cuz’s wife is pregnant, baby no 4, auntie was very happy but fiancé said to them, him and auntie wouldn’t be looking after all of them. Auntie did apparently tell him to shut up. Cuz was angry said the problem was that his kids didn’t want to be around him anyways, so he didn’t need to worry. Then auntie was upset. I’ve looked after Cuz’s kids, they were smaller then, and apart from waking up at 5am 😬 and a few tantrums, they were very good don’t see auntie fiancé problem at all. I was (when I saw them) watching the two younger ones play together and the older one did keep himself to himself but also interacted with Dishy a lot too. Not exactly running around causing trouble. Cuz also said to me “don’t even get me started on his brother, he’s even worse”. Hmm. Anyway Cuz knows he’s got to speak to auntie, which I’m guessing has happened. I don’t really want to get involved but I’m wondering if auntie is ok. We have all dumped a dud, apart from auntie. Dud doesn’t go round to see sis as much anymore either. Yes watching the court case on YouTube. I have tried to be a open minded when they started to cross examine her but …nah didn’t last long.

I did a whole reply late last night but lost it, meh! Lils, I'm really, seriously concerned for Auntie. This so-called fiance has too many sociopathic attitudes and behaviours - gross over-entitlement to give The Cuzes (bro and wife) his unwanted, not to mention premature, unreasonable, rude, bound-to-alienate, highly inappropriate (etc., etc.) opinion delivered with an air of superiority and disdain...and all the rest we've noticed, like his moving-in with her (her bills), and the fact Auntie is going as far as to agree to marry him (after too little time) in spite of the fact she's stood fully witness to this behaviour too yet hasn't had second thoughts! Under his spell already, is she? : Can you talk to mum and get her involved - before it's too late? Your mum has the tact and diplomacy, not to mention the experience and education, to open Auntie's eyes to WHAT she's about to intricate herself with. His obnoxiousness with Cuzes right in front of Auntie's nose, was a tri-fold manipulation in terms of "win/win" outcome: removing a potential barrier to the imminent wedding and his aim to take-over Auntie and her life (and no doubt finances): 1. The Cuzes already don't want to be around him, which, given that I'd put big money on his being joined at the hip to Auntie from now on, means automatic isolation from support and grounding (which will only increase). Which "won't be his fault but theirs (I ONLY SAID blah-blah)". 2. With no grandparents to give them a breather, Cuzes will increasingly become too run-ragged to visit as much. Again, "not his decision or fault". 3. With the above, unwanted scenario in-mind, the Cuzes will roll over for a quiet life (say nothing whenever he starts pecking) and find themselves conditioned against all of a sudden 'getting involved' come the point where Auntie needs active troops. Lils, you ARE involved. Your whole family. Because this giant a-hole is about to become a member of and giant influence on it (OMG). You'll all have the fall-out to deal with and it'll be far messier than at least an ATTEMPT to wake Auntie up and slow this guy down? She's not wanting to have kids (which is what legal marriage was designed to protect, in case of a split) so why does she even NEED to MARRY him, rather than just have him live-in 'forever'? Doesn't he have enough wealth to support himself in his Autumn years? If I made the rules, I'd decree that a couple had to date for two years and sample living together only once they got engaged, that being, another 2 years before the ceremony were allowed. I mean, what are the state of HIS finances? If Auntie has considerably more wealth and assets, then, if (as in, when) they divorce, she's going to basically lose half her past divorce settlement and savings. And for what, when, as I say, she could easily make him prove himself worthy by sampling married life with him, beforehand? After all, if they're intending to spend the rest of their lives together - where is the hurry??? Was Auntie becoming too lonely and desperate? Might she be thinking, it's alright for her boys but they've got partners and their own lives, and aren't in Auntie's enough to salve that incredible loneliness? If he could go so over-far as attack her family when he's not even family yet, what the hell is he going to be like once he is. Has mum said anything at all, already, to Auntie - or to you? She must be worried, too, surely? I mean - after witnessing all this bad and inadequate, and (under the seeming surface trivia) downright disturbing behaviour (seemingly with no apology from him or his having been forthcoming) - WHO WOULDN'T have serious misgivings!? The outrageous amount of chutzpah it takes to openly attack the achilles of your fiancee's own children - and even picking on the grandchildren - especially when it's too early for him to know wtf he's talking about! - is shocking. He was supposed to be putting his best foot forward! Feel the chasmic distance between those two! Yep, he really sees the Cuzes as a threat - starting with, to the wedding going ahead. In his need to remove them from the scene, he's had to take the risk of getting one of his big, off-putting tools out "in public", instead of keeping it a hidden secret until after the ceremony. Someone Auntie trusts has only hers and her family's best interest has to have a sincrere sit-down with her, and The Cuzes need to UP their contact (e.g. start ringing her - ON HER MOBILE, NOT THE LANDLINE - every day or every other day). With any luck - seeing fairly rapidly that they will not under any circumstances do his bidding and shuffle away to leave her to him - he'll conclude there are easier targets out there and Auntie will be saved from that bullet. Or she'll tell him she got carried away with the romance but has had second thoughts about rushing, and he'll have no choice but to agree to cohabit for 2 years first. (He won't be able to sustain the act for that long - out he will come.)

Back to Dishy: Everything noted. Re Dud potentially being there: if Dishy sends his 'confrontation' letter well beforehand, then (AWKS!) I doubt his Dud would want to risk having it brought-up in-person, especially in-front of his mother. Really pleased we've found the tack that suits him btw. But don't push about reading them, let him ask. It might be a bit too personal even for his long-term steady? I'm sure he'll tell you the full gist, though, if not actually read out the dialogue. Noted, that Mug's re-try was far weaker. Seems the puppy CAN be trained? ****** "Dud doesn’t go round to see sis as much anymore either. " Hallelujlia! Is that partway down to sis agreeing less to see him or entirely his doing?

PS: it's good that Cuz plans another talk, but, as he's part of the problem ("and could be biased"), Auntie will need to see their total concerned noises MATCH.