Widowed friend obsessed with daughter's life

I know this behavior is not normal, but I cannot talk to my friend about it because it will destroy our friendship. Here is the story: She was widowed in her early 50's several years ago after husband lost his battle with cancer. She has one adult daughter who is married with a toddler and another baby on the way. In the years since her husband passed, she has grown more and more attached to her daughter's life and no exaggeration, it's almost to the point where she doesn't make a move without checking with her daughter first. They're in constant contact, 24/7 either in person, talking on the phone or texting. When my friend and I go out, if she isn't talking to me about her daughter, she's talking to or texting her daughter the entire time we're out. There will be a band on stage, and I'll look over and see her texting away on her phone. Other times we'll be sitting around a table with friends, and she'll start giving everyone the up-to-the minute details of what her daughter is doing at that moment, what she and her family are eating (pictures included) and then go on to tell us what her grandchild would eat and wouldn't eat during dinner. We get the play by play of all the child's temper tantrums, the daughter's arguments with her spouse, and an itemized breakdown of everything her daughter bought during a shopping spree. It has gotten to the point where "living vicariously" doesn't even sum up the issue. She is simply obsessed, and none of us want to tell her because the denial is real. Furthermore, the daughter is a shopaholic and can't stop spending money. She's not in a financial position to afford most of what she wants, so my friend is constantly offering to either pay or split the cost of every whimsical thing she "has to have". Then when we're out, my friend often complains to ME - - incessantly - - about her daughter's spending habits and insists it needs to stop. Rinse and repeat, the next day, she'll go right back out shopping with her daughter and offer to pay for everything because the daughter can't afford it. She enables the behavior and then complains about it. It's a never-ending cycle. And my friend is always the victim in the story because she ends up picking up the tab. A few weeks ago, the situation cost my friend her job, (and she was making pretty good money and had excellent benefits) because the employer got tired of hearing her on the phone with the daughter ALL DAY long, running errands during her work hours for her daughter and taking off days and/or cutting out early to get her grandchild because her daughter had somewhere to be. Instead of owning the fact that she screwed up, she has instead complained for weeks that the employer "screwed her" (again, she's the victim) - and now she's claiming she can't get another job because "no one will want to hire her at her age" (even though she was offered another job). She has instead decided to take care of her grandkids full-time to help her daughter and perpetuate the story that the employer was irrational and she's too old to work. She drew early on a retirement accountant to live and has claimed repeatedly that she can get buy on less money, yet every time I talk to her, I hear about more shopping trips. The spending never stops. I love her to death and I'm completely sympathetic where the loss of her husband is concerned, but I feel like the only reason she goes out with me is because her son-in-law probably wants alone time with his wife. Her daughter is the sweetest girl, but when I go out after a busy work week, I want to have fun. I want to get away from life's stresses. I don't need to hear every detail about her daughter's shopping trips, doctor's appointment, car problems, houseware purchases etc. like it's "Breaking News". When we're in the car, she gets her daughter on the speaker phone because that's 10 minutes more they can talk. My friend is so obsessed with her girl's life that it consumes her. She recently told me she would love to travel more but "can't" (not "won't") because her daughter keeps having babies. ???????? Who is the adult in this relationship? Again, she's the victim because her daughter's decision to have children is holding HER back. I don't want to cut ties with my friend, nor can I tell her any of this because she'd be extremely hurt. I've started making plans with others and slowly begun putting distance between us. I'm not going to be held back, nor am I going to feel guilty for making plans that don't involve someone who can't make a move without getting clearance from her married daughter. I wish she would speak with a counselor, but you know what they say, the first step is to admit you have a problem and my friend is a chronic victim - nothing is ever her fault. The only person holding her back in life is herself, and as much as it pains me, I have to bite my tongue a lot. I'm curious to hear what others would do in my situation. Thanks!

It's your friend's 'victim' attitude & behaviour which is destroying your friendship rather than you having to bite your tongue for the fear of you hurting her. Hats off to you for looking out for her & caring enough to post about it all but you're not responsible for her actions & her interactions with her family. Your challenge is to walk away without looking over your shoulder & just move on with your life as you post that you're starting to do. True friends will always tell you what you need to hear rather than what you want to hear, but you guys haven't been on the same page for a while now & it's your friend who has built the walls around herself & her infatuation with her daughter etc could well be a coping mechanism after her husband's passing, who knows? Yep, you're correct, you friend will need to realise her issues first before anyone else can help her.. & heads up, friends like you will always get splattered by the fallout.

Thank you, I appreciate the response!

"& her infatuation with her daughter etc could well be a coping mechanism after her husband's passing," Oh, definitely. She's literally all she's got in her life now. And worse, since being fired. But it sounds to me like she subconsciously resigned SO THAT she could sell the idea of being even MORE ensconced in her only child and grandkids' lives, more easily ('I'm available anyway, so I may as well - better someone they know than a childminder, yadder-yadder'). Basically, to play it cool with her daughter so's not to be seen as chasing her furiously (for security now her husband's gone). Of course she's in a victim mindset right now. Because she still is. Her 'Rock' died. She needs to plug her insecurity. And (think about it) she's manoeuvring INWARDS, rather than into and exploring the wider world. Hiding in the family nest. It boils down to whether she's worth you sitting her down to TELL her 'her breath smells'. After all, it NEEDN'T destroy the friendship, if you can phrase it right, from an angle of obvious concern that she's okay and is just opting to 'go into quarantine' for a while, not forever, and will settle down. Perhaps you could help her join a club? She needs a project. Almost all loss-traumatised people need something to fill the massive, scary, mind-ucking gap, for a while. But she could accidentally smother her daughter if she's not careful (which she knows, hence altering the way she enveigles herself to in a Helper capacity in order to sweeten the cloying pill, so to speak - see what I'm saying?). Why don't you get her a bit tiddly and giggly first? (And yourself - Dutch Courage and all that.) Or take her to a threatre show? Something exciting for her as well as 'outside of herself' to talk about for a change? Just gently experiment on her; that's what I'd do. Whether you did want to keep her, rather than, this Bore Fest actually being your final straw, your own excuse (in a way) - it would be a very kind thing to do. It's called, Tough Love. :) Are you up for this latest challenge that life has thrown, gauntlet-style, at your feet? Or are you going to decline, only to come up against this sort of friendship problem and impasse again? ;) Put simply: Maybe Fate's handed you a much-needed, overdue dumbell for improving your own peace of mind via a new, very valuable skill? ("Dann-Dann-DAAAAANN!" LOL)

First, I have to say, I love your perspective and very much appreciate your responses! You hit the nail on the head. The "victim" status is nothing more than a way for her to "sell the idea" - the narrative - that she wants others to believe. The problem is, I'm past the point of feeling bad and am now genuinely irritated. Her range of topics go from "my daughter" to "my grandchild", back to "my daughter and my son-in-law", and so on, rinse and repeat. It's ALL she talks about. It's ALL she focuses on. If I bring up the news of the day, she doesn't care - that doesn't interest her. If I told her a bomb got dropped on the White House, she'd probably shrug her shoulders and tell me about the pillows her daughter found at Home Goods. What goes on around the world doesn't affect her, so it isn't important - that's her take. She's got a house full of end-to-end junk, and she's whined incessantly for years that most of it is not her stuff, yet she needs to clean it out. As an unemployed adult with nothing to do, this is a project she could be working on. Instead, she spends her days buying more junk with her daughter and then complains about the fact that she can't park in her garage because it's full of stuff. It's not that I want to end the friendship, but I feel like she's stuck in a self-inflicted rut, and I want to move and explore. I love music. I read. I love documentaries and watch a ton of them. I need to be around people who have interests in life and love to converse about a range of topics. I want to take weekend trips. She is not that person. She's not holding me back, but when we go out, I feel mentally stifled and it's frustrating. It's like trying to have an adult conversation with a kid who is hyper-focused on a stupid reality tv show. She even has one of those tracker apps on her phone so she can see where her 30-year-old daughter is at all times and she's constantly updating me like a kid tracking Santa Claus on Christmas Eve. I agree that tough love is in order.

Well, BLIMEY!...Now that you've gone into specifics and detail - OMFG, you must want to strangle the woman! Or at least scream in her face, WAKE UP! "I'm past the point of feeling bad and am now genuinely irritated." So am I and I haven't even met her! (Although, actually, I 'have'...LOTS of times.) In which case: "She's not holding me back, but when we go out, I feel mentally stifled and it's frustrating." *OH, YES, SHE IS*. NEVER underestimate the Drip-Drips... ESPECIALLY when what's dripping is Frustration. HIGHLY acidic, that one! Nah. Withdraw. Tell her her breath smells WITH YOUR FEET. Or...there's the option of a kind but firm email? 'Hit' her in-one? Third option: Megaphone.... produce over the restaurant table and yell, WHERE ARE YOOOOU? (Fourth: Whoopie Cushion.) (Not kidding not neiver - worked for meee? :D) I'm gonna call Balance over to see this. His GF needs a firework up her bum. But your friend? She needs a nuclear missile! You have my fullest condolences. Stick around for as long as you like if you want moral support or tips (if you're going to give it one last, garguantuan try?). ...Esepcially as you have a brilliant wit. E.g., this one had me gaffawing and rocking whilst holding my tummy (and I'm STILL laffin!): "If I told her a bomb got dropped on the White House, she'd probably shrug her shoulders and tell me about the pillows her daughter found at Home Goods." Ever tried comedy stand-up?

(Manalone): "friends like you will always get splattered by the fallout." ...and then gather the pieces together and make comedy Gold out of it. (Giant Thumbs-Up)

....I'm starting to suspect, this woman was Iffy (or worse - Niffy) from the start but that, either you were too busy/distracted/accompanied to see it (or thought it was as bad as it could get) but have YOURSELF woken up that critical amount - ORRRR - that the grief and (or) sense of "being suddenly abandoned" has finally made her veneer crack and mask fall off. I.e. she can't keep up the act of Normality/Sanity any more. (PD Alert, PD Alert!)

...So, Philameena - am I right in assuming this is the The Moby Dick woman from your other thread?

PS: Another theory: Might she have been PREVENTED from having had a close relationship with her daughter while he was alive, hence, now/since, the obsessive gorging on her? (Not that it excuses her rudeness and obliviousness, of course. Grief is not another word for Arsehole.)

Again, your responses are hugely helpful, highly entertaining and very much appreciated! Yes, this is Moby Dick woman. I think from this point forward, that will be her new name, both on this thread and amongst our friends who endure the "Breaking News out of my daughter's trip to find matching placemats" updates while we're trying to enjoy a band. A friend of mine told me yesterday, after one encounter with Moby Dick woman 2 weeks ago that, "After 5 minutes with her, I could tell right away that she's always a victim." They literally had just met. To your point, I never realized how much of a victim complex she had until this year, and it has only escalated in recent weeks since she lost her job (due to being consumed by her grown daughter - only to blame the employer for firing her without cause, even after the employer had several talks with her over the course of the last year about her behavior). She still brings this up every time we go out, but refers to the situation as "being forced to retire." The proverbial, "I am only doing X because someone is making me" BS has gotten old. I'm literally to the point where I am going to encourage her to move into her daughter's house to save money on her cell phone plan.

"Again, your responses are hugely helpful, highly entertaining and very much appreciated! " Well - good - it's mutual! :) Shame 'Dick' isn't short for anything feminine, but...she's not exactly been behaving femininely, has she. I dunno... I wouldn't stand for that mobile nonsense. I'm more 'in your face' with as few words as possible, like, 'Rude In Company much?' and a hard stare with raised eyebrows as if to say - Well...?...Explain yourself? If for some reason I couldn't - I'd have great fun taking the gentle piss. You have the SOH so I'm sure you could pull it off?.... "Oy, Dick...You SURE that's your daughter you're constantly-constantly texting and ignoring the rest of us for?....OR YOUR NEW, SECRET LOVER?..................Yyyyyeaaaah - daughter-schmaughter - she's not THAT fascinating, is she....Yeeeaahhh, it's a new lover......Got a huge one, has he?" And if that didn't work - up it a level: "Are you phoning for an ambulance?...Did someone finally go and squirt Supaglue on your screen?". And another: "Ooh, maybe *you and your daughter* are having an affair!.............Weeell, it fits?..., ya know?....". And penultimately: (a) "Tell me, Dick... Were you ALWAYS this incredibly, obnoxiously rude and it's simply that we lot have only just been noticing?...or what?" (b) ALL of you (it'll need a pow-wow beforehand, obvs) - scrunch up your paper napkins and simultaneously pelt her with them, preferably with little messages inside (which you point out to her)...call 'em Paper Fortune Cookies (-bit like her friendship, eh - paper), like: "Hello - can you even SEE us?!", and, "How RUUUUDE!", and, "...Aaaaand you are here becaaause...?". Or - variation - you orchestrate it so that the minute she's rude with her phone, you all drop what you're doing and saying and just all stare silently at her until she notices and goes - "Whaaat"...whereupon you keep silently staring but from her phone to her face (moving your head up and down as you do so). Peer Pre-sssssuuuure! Never underestimate that, either. I mean - it can't just be YOU out of the whole group that wants to throttle her, SURELY!? I just wouldn't stand for it; but if you're unused to being rude or ruder back - Baby Steps it. Ultimately is where you order her a dessert topped with custard or squirty cream and shove her face in it before storming off. Or fantasise that you do, haha. (What happened to the good ol' glass of Cinzano or Martini in the face, that's what I'd like to know!) Nah, but, seriously, the woman's clearly addicted. Is having a mobile phone - or using one properly - a novelty for her? Crikey, imagine if she had it snatched. She'd probably have an instant nervous breakdown. Jeez...

"To your point, I never realized how much of a victim complex she had until this year, and it has only escalated in recent weeks since she lost her job (due to being consumed by her grown daughter - only to blame the employer for firing her without cause, even after the employer had several talks with her over the course of the last year about her behavior). She still brings this up every time we go out, but refers to the situation as "being forced to retire."" Narc Alert - Narc Alert!! I just threw my Martini in her face, ...followed by this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0GW0Vnr9Yc For her repeatedly insulting everyone's intelligence - TO THAT DEGREE. My vote for what you-plural should do is, just megaphone and Whoopie Cushion. Suits her age, anyway (kid in grown-up suit...whose 'Daddy' had to 'abandon' her and now wants to make her daughter her Mummy). But, yeah, it sounds like she's degenerating to her true self in front of your eyes (think Wicked Witch of the West in Wiz Of Oz - albeit she's a Benign so is just Irritating Witch) and throw a bucket of Truth over her). I mean, she sounds SO rude and SO completely insensitive that, she should be a character in Disney's Alice In Wonderland. Seriously. Let's cut the crap: She sounds mad, actually. TOO unhinged from reality. Morbidly fascinating, though, isn't she.

OH-WUH!...PHILAMEENA!...I'VE FOUND THE SCOOBY CLUE!... ""Breaking News out of my daughter's trip to find matching placemats" updates while we're trying to enjoy a band." WHILE YOU'RE TRYING TO GIVE SOMETHING/SOMEONE(S) ELSE(S) YOUR ATTENTION. She's an attention-hog! (Narc giant symptom tick!) But she doesn't have anything to talk about (to the friends she still has left). I.e. she has no life (outside of getting validation from everyone on two legs). Except for daughter (or daughter's life - let's tell it like it is). In WHICH case - she is not oblivious. She engrosses herself on her phone because she knows you lot will be offended, AND.... Narcs - if they can't gain and hold POSITIVE attention, will settle for negative (and PROVOKE reactions!). Tick, tick, tickety-tick. Yep. Narc. (Mostly, people's problems stem from problem people(ish). Innit. And these days, they're bloody everywhere - OR being noticed everywhere (finally)!) Bloody knew it. Ugh. Your friend's a Narc. Ugh. ("Ere - don't fancy yours much!"). Hahaha. But, OH....sh*t. It's get your rubber gloves on time. Or your Shuffle-iest shoes. All of you. This weekend, I'll see if I can make time to provide you some links to where these behaviours are listed and explained as Narc habits/tactics. Just out of interest - did this not occur to you? Or did you say now't because you wanted an independent, second opinion? PS: What's her daughter like? (Also - is she Exasperated? Or encouraging it?)

I so enjoying reading your responses - thank you! Her daughter is actually a lovely gal, but here is the story. She was an only child, dad was in the military (and deployed several times throughout her life), so mom ("Moby Dick") never learned to say, "no". In spite of this, her daughter did well in college, met her husband, continued on to get master's degrees and has been steadily advancing her career. She now has 2 kids (the new baby just arrived). Since Moby Dick was widowed, she has not only clung on to her daughter but she has been "offended" at various times when her son-in-law wanted to do things with his wife that didn't include mom. She even used to tell me (before the kids arrived) that she felt like a "third wheel" (because SHE WAS a third wheel). That said, I do think her daughter encourages a lot of it, but not because she can't live without her mother - it's because she knows her mother will drop what she's doing on a moment's notice and run errands for her. Moby Dick has conditioned this behavior and as I noted, she complains about the very thing she continues to enable. This is classic Pavlov Dogs. This girl has spent her entire life with a mom who says things like, "Go get it and I'll pay for it" or "Call me if you need food and I'll pick something up." Moby Dick initiates this, so how can you blame the daughter for doing the very things she has been encouraged to do her entire life? Moby complains that her daughter spends too much money (which she does). A few months ago, her daughter wanted a very pricey new furniture set, so Moby told her to buy it, and she'd pay for half. Then she proceeded to complain to me that "she had been manipulated". I called her out on the spot. I said, "Those kids aren't manipulating you at all - you offered to pay." That shut her up. When she was fired, both she and her daughter were bad-mouthing and blaming the former boss. She convinced her daughter she was treated very poorly but what her daughter doesn't realize is, she was hired to do a job for pay that didn't involve talking/texting with her all day long, running errands on company time for her (such as getting her lunch because she couldn't get away from work) and cutting out early or starting late because her daughter had a kid issue. I love her daughter to death, but if she didn't have her mom to do that all stuff, she and her husband would have to deal with their own bosses. Only then would they LEARN how to manage their life themselves. Moby Dick will not allow them to fail or struggle, so they're not learning one of life's most important lessons. The only thing her daughter understands is, if I want it, I need to get it now. And Moby Dick has decided that if "my daughter needs me, I need to be there" while at the same time, citing that as "the reason" why she can't get her house cleaned out or travel ............ or go to shows she wants to see. Someone else is always to blame for why she can't do something. Her daughter is her crutch. Moby even brags about how "independent" her daughter is. All she ever talks about is her daughter, so the range of topics in her repertoire is so painfully limited that it hurts my head to listen to her. I'm not an arrogant person but I do crave variety in my conversations, and I don't think it's unreasonable at all to expect someone who "claims" they want to go out to be present for that 3 to 4-hour period. While I don't believe her daughter is exasperated (because she has a personal assistant who will jump when she snaps), I do believe her husband is and I feel that if this continues to go on, it's going to adversely impact her marriage.

Heya! Sorry again for the delay (and the fact I've had to make this message a 'Round Robin', so short of time am I). Am aiming determinedly to log on this weekend. See you then!

Heya and Sorry again-AGAIN! First I was too busy and then I came down with sinus flu. Right... I'll go into detail after I've caught up with everyone here, but - Reading Sept 12th at 14:13, I have to slam on the brakes and say - STOOOOP! I'm not saying this mother/friend of yours isn't heavily narcissistic (the helpless yet self-serving type), but it equally might be reactive. Reading that post, it sounds very mu- no, TOO much to me like the Daughter is exploiting her mother horribly. SHE...is to blame for the fact her (scared, lonely, desperate, miserable) mother lost her job. Daughter is exploiting her mother's present state, instead of empathising and supporting her... Making her basically pay for 'friendship' and family inclusion. Saying that, I suppose the woman could be reaping what she sowed? Perhaps Daughter has unexpressed resentment since childhood, for having felt her mother always put her husband first and she herself, last, meaning, 'mother owes me' so she's making her sweat? Do me a favour and re-read that post of yours but this time bearing what I'm saying (based on what I could see going on in the background, as makes everything fit, rather than on the surface)? And then tell me if this time you can see it? The woman's too scared and frantic (under tacit threat of further abandonment, this time by daughter, "if she refuses to do (whatever, whenever)"). (Free Assistant, anyone?) Is it rudeness or is she just too scared not to jump to attention '24/7' whenever daughter (over-frequently!) clicks her fingers, to be polite or self-aware? (PS: Narcs always-always try to engage the target-victim when they're out in company - for this very reason, i.e. so THAT they lose their friends. (Google "Narcissist - Isolating the victim".) Because, of course, that'll enable the Victim-Slave to go from part-time lackeying to FULL-time, won't it. Or is it a cry for help (from under her gag)? Does she WANT you or you lot to 'explode' and confront her properly over it...so that she can finally confess all and (hopefully) see you all immediately offer to help and advise? You see, if she's in a state where she feels distinctly unsafe...precarious... which equals, already feeling too vulnerable, then, admitting this stuff and imploring friends to help is SUPREMELY difficult. (The woman's either weak or has become weakened....typical effect on the victim.) Irrespective of the players in this typical-sounding production - it's Exploitation that's going on here. It's too obvious. Oh, and whilst I'm at it: I don't see husband complaining, apart from a helpless whinge? ('Blah-blah-blah...that'll do'.) New Thoughts?

PS: You're not one iota unreasonable/being unreasonable (don't make me laff!). Your feelings and reactions about and over this (the miminal parts you're seeing and hearing about) are perfectly healthy-normal-functional-self-respecting-etc. :)

PPS: Seriously - I would (all/most of you) take her out and, having stated you're on Team (her name), confront her over it. If you were in your friend's shoes and responding IN FRONT OF friends-and-WITNESSES - you would expect them to eventually confront you over your behaviour and reasons for it, wouldn't you. I think the reason she's acting-out in front of you all is because on her conscious level she is seriously torn. The clue was in her *repeated* claim that it was her BOSS'S fault she was fired. She doesn't believe that herself (she'd have to be seriously retarded, think about it)...But half of her daren't admit it out-loud because she's got a gun held to her head (fail to lackey and I'll cut you off from your remaining family). And that gun would definitely be forced to go off if you guys put her straight over what's going on because, having been put straight, she would have to DEAL with the issue by confronting her daughter and laying boundaries - and thereby risking said ostracisation (which at this juncture, she cannot-cannot risk). The other half is 'gesticulating' wildly whilst at the same time verbally coming out with too-obvious NONSENSE. Her 'deeper-downs'...her inner animal, is the one making her do that. It wants your help. It is gagging to confront daughter ("YOU LOST US OUR JOB!"), but is being prevented by its (understandably) scaredy-cat host (on whom it relies when it comes to acts of safety and survival). Do you know much about heartlessly-exploitative Narcs (or over-resentful kids years later)?

Yeah, I would just start with something along the lines of: 'We're all very concerned that you seem to have somehow found yourself stuck-fast in a position where you're too-easily being taken serious advantage of...which already has cost you what on sooo many levels, was your very important job' - and then when she says, by whom? - you all say, 'Daughter'.' Tell her it's a common pitfall in her position, practically unavoidable....but 'get-out-able' or 'alleviate-able' to where it's more comfortably symbiotic between the pair of them. See that as your 'make or break' conversation. At least then, in years to come (e.g. when you hit her age), you won't look back with that incredibly itchy question: "What if I'd said something and intervened?'. Or worse - 'If only I had'. That's what I'd do. But you're not me so what you want to do is entirely your prerogative. If something can be saved then I save it. If not, I walk away. I just think you'll feel better for having walked away if you understand exactly WHY you had to. But whatever you do, automatically can't be wrong because - fact! - she IS a pebble in your shoe/shoes and you're in the right as well as entitled to take the offending article out...especially as pebbles in your shoe, if not dealt with, too-quickly start to feel AND DAMAGE like they're shards of glass....so, no wozzies, whichever. :)

ATTENTION READERS: Click this link to see previous, but wholly connected, thread (now closed), and thereby the fuller picture: https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13958/how-do-you-deal-with-mobile-phone-addicts#jumptobottom ________________________________________________________________________________________________________

COPIED AND PASTED OVER FROM SAID PREVIOUS THREAD FOR PERTINENT REFERENCE: Post by Philameena: "The truth is, she's a kind person but the woman exists in a bubble and has no self-awareness. I've begun putting distance between us and making sure all future outings include a larger group of people. That way, the second I hear her daughter's name or see her texting, I can turn and talk to someone else. I've tried the subtle comments - made cracks about how "people on their phones" when they go out are rude and annoying. She agrees with me and then, BOOM - whips out her phone. Apparently in her mind, her phone use is different - she has to check in with her adult, married daughter every 10 minutes because she might be needed. And then she feels compelled to provide the rest of us an immediate daughter update. Not to mention, she repeats herself constantly and that has become another sticking point. She tells me about the same things over and over and over - sometimes within the same few hours. In the last week alone, she told me 4 times that she had to take her son-in-law somewhere. It took everything in my being not to say, "I heard you the first 17 times and I still don't care" but I just can't be that mean. What she doesn't realize is, no one cares - this isn't "BREAKING NEWS" or even conversation material. What does she want people to say? And she'll just ............. keep ................. repeating it. After repeatedly hearing the same stories about her daughter's contractions/labor, how she had to watch her grandchild while his mom was giving birth and giving the son-in-law ONE ride - over and over and over and over - I am now at the gym alone, and it's wonderful. Maybe one day she'll get her own identity and find some interests, but until then, I have more important things to focus on."

My observations: Contextual fact: After more than just a handful of years, you state confidently that he woman is Kind. Narcs are only kind when Love-Bombing or whenever you need buttering-up because you've had a 'fight' (created or contrived by them, usually) and they can tell they've gone too far. Were she heavily narcissistic normally or even full-blown personality-disordered by it, then, had she not proven consistently over time to be kind IN PRACTISE (rather than just the blah-blahs) - by now, you would definitely know it. Undoubtedly, you'd have long walked-away already. "made cracks about how "people on their phones" when they go out are rude and annoying. She agrees with me and then, BOOM - whips out her phone. " Fits with, (a normally kind person being) too scared NOT to jump to immediate attention, doesn't it. Cognitively, she KNOWS what you're 'saying' is right. But she just can't put it into practise. Daren't. (She's ended-up like one of Pavlov's dogs, look: bell rings - she jumps, *irrespective of ANYTHING OR ANYONE*.) There's a disconnect between her nodding head and her actions... "Not to mention, she repeats herself constantly and that has become another sticking point. She tells me about the same things over and over and over - sometimes within the same few hours. In the last week alone, she told me 4 times that she had to take her son-in-law somewhere. " Nothing else TO talk about (phase 2 - losing her her day-job - mission successful!). Also - constantly background distracted (trying to work-out if she or daughter is the unreasonable one). She's in her head, trying to solve a crime (to know where she stands or whether she's 'over-reacting', 'being selfish', whatever that the Narc uses to strong-arm their victim by triggering shame and guilt). Fits. (At the time, Narc's victims tend NOT to be too pretty, aye.) "It took everything in my being not to say, "I heard you the first 17 times and I still don't care" but I just can't be that mean." You're making-out that confrontation has to be mean. How's about, 'Don't you realise you've actually told me that about 17 times already?'. Hints won't work. Not strong enough, given what you're 'competing with' for attention. (Caring, Well-Meaning) Peer Pressure will. PS: Did she actually use the words 'had to'? Because that would reveal it all, wouldn't it. (PS: Clearly he *doesn't* feel violated/crowded-out/bothered by her constant presence, Big Fat Eh...cos apparently...evidently...he wants more of it!)) "What does she want people to say? And she'll just ............. keep ................. repeating it" Yuh. Until you DO say something. (Nag-nag-nag-nag-nag.) She (well, her inner animal) wants you to say, 'Right, you, missy...What's going on? You're acting like a crazy woman recently (etc.)'. *You're a hinter* - *Your friend is a hinter*. (Gosh, how unusual, haha.) "I am now at the gym alone, and it's wonderful. " That's good, that's sensible. HAVE A BREAK (have a KitKat, haha). De-compress and re-charge (- mobile phones are based on us). And THEN decide what you do or don't want to do about it. Still would like your updated thoughts tho.

On a spiritual level, I defo think Fate has provided you with an event-based opportunity in order to highlight to you, once-and-for-all, that your adult toolbelt is missing a vital tool. The one called, How To Be Smooth At Having Difficult Confrontations ...or How To Save A Situation by Speaking Your Mind. Or, How To Be A Rescuer. Or all three combined. I mean, you ARE if you think about it, demonstrating that this fact is true, yes? (You and virtually every empath!) BUT...Imagine if she was your boss (in the future) and you COULDN'T walk away because, say, other jobs were at that time too scarce and already you were in significant debt? Or some other 'problematic person' in whatever crucial role, whom had you similarly (psychologically-speaking), LITERALLY, bent backwards over a barrel, and the only thing that could save you or damage-limit the grave situation was, you taking a confident, 'Now look here, you - that's inappropriate!' attitude with them? Trouble is, being good at confronting nicely takes PRACTISE. But if you can't bring yourself to outright put your foot down - you're hardly going to start giving it a go, are you....as opposed to running and hiding in the gym, haha (kick me later). AS you could bring yourself to lose her - she is the perfect test-drive dummy. If it does go pants-up - who cares?! And at least you tried (and for both your sakes). In other words: she whom isn't confident at riding a bike has been loaned a couple of trainer wheels, to (groan) bring her up to speed. Free-of-Charge. Somebody up there likes you and doesn't want you to re-encounter (or keep encountering?) this type of sense of powerlessness and defencelessness in the near-future. In short: this is a Golden Opportunity. Plus, it'll vibe great on your psyche CV! :) Might even prevent people from GOING there to begin with, with you! (Undoubtedly.) How much would that cost in self-assertiveness training classes?.... Slap her face with a wet fish, go on! :D

Thank you again – your responses are so well thought out and articulated. I enjoy reading them immensely, and quite honestly, you raised quite a few points that I never considered. Regarding your comments that “…sounds very mu- no, TOO much to me like the Daughter is exploiting her mother horribly. SHE...is to blame for the fact her (scared, lonely, desperate, miserable) mother lost her job. Daughter is exploiting her mother's present state, instead of empathising and supporting her... Making her basically pay for 'friendship' and family inclusion. Saying that, I suppose the woman could be reaping what she sowed? Perhaps Daughter has unexpressed resentment since childhood, for having felt her mother always put her husband first and she herself, last, meaning, 'mother owes me' so she's making her sweat?” “The woman's too scared and frantic (under tacit threat of further abandonment, this time by daughter, "if she refuses to do (whatever, whenever)"). (Free Assistant, anyone?)” My first thought after reading this was that it’s like you know them personally – totally spot on. I don’t know if the daughter is resentful; I’ve always kind of looked at like she’s “Frankenstein” and Moby Dick is “Frankenstein’s creator”. Mom created a spoiled kid who grew up to become a prima donna. To this day, the expectation is that when she snaps, mom needs to jump - and mom always jumps. Mom is now alone and has zero interests, so to your point, it seems she either does what daughter wants or risks being left out. But again, this is how the daughter was raised, so if the daughter is exploitative, I feel like that is “her” normal – that is all she knows. Moby has confessed to being fearful on several occasions that her daughter’s family would do things without her. Even stupid things, like going to the zoo. If they don’t include her, she gets upset. I can’t imagine how the son-in-law feels with Moby in their lives 24/7. I’m sure he loves having a built-in babysitter but at the same time, she’s ……….always…………there. Most people I know with grown kids (single and married) don’t expect to be with their adult children 24/7. You can be widowed/single and still have a very full life if you develop your own interests and pursue them. In this situation, it’s more like “my daughter doesn’t need me this weekend so I’m free to go out if you want.” The irony is, she’s not free. She’s never free. As you pointed out, she’s so in her own head that even when she’s physically away from her daughter, she cannot disconnect.

“Did she actually use the words 'had to'? Because that would reveal it all, wouldn't it.” Yes. She always “has to” run errands for the daughter/son-in-law or “has to” watch the grandchild. She always claims she “has to” to all kinds of things for them when in reality, she offers to do everything for them. I have heard her do it many, many times only to later hear her “claim” that she “has to” do it. The reality is, many married couples with young kids don’t have their parents at their disposal and somehow, they figure things out. They find ways to get from Point A to Point B, or pick up groceries – get lunch during a work day or get a sick kid from daycare. If they can’t afford new furniture this year, they buy it next year. This is what is known as life. Moby doesn’t “have to” do any of these things. She does it because she wants to or maybe as you implied, to stay in their good graces. Either way, it’s voluntary. The “I have to” line is just more victimhood. “You're making-out that confrontation has to be mean. How's about, 'Don't you realise you've actually told me that about 17 times already?'.” I am so itching to use this line on her! To your points about confronting her … “Seriously - I would (all/most of you) take her out and, having stated you're on Team (her name), confront her over it. If you were in your friend's shoes and responding IN FRONT OF friends-and-WITNESSES - you would expect them to eventually confront you over your behaviour and reasons for it, wouldn't you.” “your adult toolbelt is missing a vital tool. The one called, How To Be Smooth At Having Difficult Confrontations…” Here’s the thing, I know her former boss because I was the catalyst for her getting the job. A large part of my frustration is that I made the introduction, and she was a terrible employee. That said, I know he confronted her on multiple occasions. I know what he said to her and most importantly, I know how she reacted. Nothing is ever her fault. She is a perpetual victim. He very clearly told her that if she had a family emergency, of course – talk to the daughter or go be with the grandchild. There are situations that warrant family time over work. But she would show up late almost every day, she’d frequently leave early for various daughter-related reasons and for the hours she was supposed to be working, the daughter would call and text her constantly. He would hear them on the phone talking about things they wanted to buy or who was having a sale, etc. This wasn’t just sometimes; this was daily and it was constant, and she was getting paid to do a job that she was not doing. The point is, when he finally told her it wasn’t working out and let her go (because the irresponsible behavior continued), she reacted very badly and got extremely defensive about it. She has perpetuated “her” version” of why she was terminated - that her boss did not believe family was more important than work (not true). I heard her say this multiple times and it was infuriating. She claims he was unreasonable and that she did everything he asked her to do (and more), and she blamed him for forcing her into early retirement, which is again, completely not true. For the last 2 years, the daughter has repeatedly insisted she retire to watch her kids full-time so she could save money on daycare expenses. This has been in the works since the first grandchild was born, so the boss shaming is BS. As always, she’s the victim because she was forced into doing something she didn’t want to do. If I or a group of us were to confront her with “the one and only topic in your repertoire is manipulating you”, I know how this would go. Not well. Her daughter walks on water, and victims always find a way to maintain their victim status. “If something can be saved then I save it. If not, I walk away.” I’m at the stage of putting distance between us because at this point in her life, I am her only conduit to the outside world. While she predominantly exists in her little unworldly bubble, I’m the only person she does anything social with, and my friends have become her acquaintances. She knows some people but she’s not the type to initiate friendships, so I’m the only real friend she has. If she texts me, I’ll respond but I really don’t want to encourage a night out. I’d rather sit home than endure an evening of daughter check-ins, updates, social media scrolling and Broken Recorditis.

Be with you by or before Sunday (got next week off, so, unhurried time to post, woohoo!)...

(Oops! Late with my lateness...) Hi-hi! "“Did she actually use the words 'had to'? Because that would reveal it all, wouldn't it.” Yes. She always “has to” run errands for the daughter/son-in-law or “has to” watch the grandchild. She always claims she “has to” to all kinds of things for them when in reality, she offers to do everything for them. I have heard her do it many, many times only to later hear her “claim” that she “has to” do it. The reality is, many married couples with young kids don’t have their parents at their disposal and somehow, they figure things out. They find ways to get from Point A to Point B, or pick up groceries – get lunch during a work day or get a sick kid from daycare. If they can’t afford new furniture this year, they buy it next year. This is what is known as life." Freudian Slip. Yeah. She has to, alright. And - correct. Most young couples/parents don't - not to that extreme whereby Gran is fired because she's been shoved between a rock and a hard place. (I wonder if her daughter (and SIL) feels guilty for that? Is that why the job offer? Is that compensation-type apology? Or a case of - Aim, Fire, Bullseye, we've forced Gran to become our full-time childminder?) You wanna teach her that Navy Seals (running) chant, but bastardise it: "Ah don' know whad Ah bin told (Ah don' know whad Ah bin told), bud bein' a grandma's geddin' old (bein' a grandma's geddin' old)", etc. "Moby doesn’t “have to” do any of these things. She does it because she wants to or maybe as you implied, to stay in their good graces. Either way, it’s voluntary. The “I have to” line is just more victimhood." Good graces, yeah. Mmmm....not sure it's voluntary. Voluntary would be - tomorrow she wins the Lottery but *still* goes ahead with being their Nanny. Would she? “You're making-out that confrontation has to be mean. How's about, 'Don't you realise you've actually told me that about 17 times already?'.” I am so itching to use this line on her!" Have you yet? And how did it go? (Tsk, so sorry again for my no-shows.) ""To your points about confronting her … “Seriously - I would (all/most of you) take her out and, having stated you're on Team (her name), confront her over it. If you were in your friend's shoes and responding IN FRONT OF friends-and-WITNESSES - you would expect them to eventually confront you over your behaviour and reasons for it, wouldn't you.” “your adult toolbelt is missing a vital tool. The one called, How To Be Smooth At Having Difficult Confrontations…” "Here’s the thing, I know her former boss because I was the catalyst for her getting the job. A large part of my frustration is that I made the introduction, and she was a terrible employee. That said, I know he confronted her on multiple occasions. I know what he said to her and most importantly, I know how she reacted." Aww, sh*t...whaaaat?! Ach! That happened to me. The effer actually STOLE off the company so was fired by way of actually being locked-out of the building come Monday morning. NONE of us saw that barrel-scraping coming from her. Turns out, though, that it was because she was being leeched off-of and to a serious degree (savings/emergency money gone) by her new "I've-decided-I'm-Live-In" boy-fiend (bleugh). It annoyed me because I saw it coming AND warned her AND she knew she could have asked me for a loan if she'd become THAT desperate. ...Pride obviously meant more to her, eh. Not comfortable being vulnerable. However, this was a very long-term friendship so... - I always say, If you can't trust me of all people, you're ucked, literally "can't" trust anyone. "Nothing is ever her fault. She is a perpetual victim." You mean genuinely, rather than pretending to be to avoid criticism/advice? "He very clearly told her that if she had a family emergency, of course – talk to the daughter or go be with the grandchild. There are situations that warrant family time over work. But she would show up late almost every day, she’d frequently leave early for various daughter-related reasons and for the hours she was supposed to be working, the daughter would call and text her constantly." DESPITE KNOWING SHE WAS SUPPOSED TO BE WORKING. (Or can't wickle Violet-Elizabeth see beyond her own needs? Or can, but just doesn't give one?) "He would hear them on the phone talking about things they wanted to buy or who was having a sale, etc. This wasn’t just sometimes; this was daily and it was constant, and she was getting paid to do a job that she was not doing." Jeez! He should have insisted on a refund! "The point is, when he finally told her it wasn’t working out and let her go (because the irresponsible behavior continued), she reacted very badly and got extremely defensive about it." What - to him, you mean? What happened? "She has perpetuated “her” version” of why she was terminated - that her boss did not believe family was more important than work (not true)." Illogical, Captain... (I'm with you). What use to yourself or your family ARE you if you just CHOOSE not to 'bring home the bacon'? Own Oxygen Mask First (or you asphyxiate before you get a chance to help others on with theirs). Maybe family's more important than work to HER. But then, don't get a job (duh?). Do you think with this Nannying set-up they've BOTH got what they secretly wanted? ...in which case, there may not be a problem here (aside from how anti-bloody-social she's being to you and the rest of your group). " I heard her say this multiple times and it was infuriating. She claims he was unreasonable and that she did everything he asked her to do (and more), and she blamed him for forcing her into early retirement, which is again, completely not true." So she's a liar-twister aka Blame-Shifter AND SLANDERER, then. Yeah...maybe daughter IS using her (revenge for all the years and years of lies/twistings/manipulations)? Maxi-Me and Mini-Me? Hubby/Dad died first, you say. What of? Cancer? How old? "For the last 2 years, the daughter has repeatedly insisted she retire to watch her kids full-time so she could save money on daycare expenses. This has been in the works since the first grandchild was born," Ah, it has - okay! "so the boss shaming is BS. As always, she’s the victim because she was forced into doing something she didn’t want to do." PRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRTH! (to her) ((Gets megaphone out: "GROWWWWWWUP!")) So basically, Violet-Elizabeth squirted-out and moulded a mini Violet-Elizabeth, yeah? Only Mini-Me has learned how to hide it better...a better manner...whereby one would assume she were the 'nice' one. Yeah? "If I or a group of us were to confront her with “the one and only topic in your repertoire is manipulating you”, I know how this would go. Not well. Her daughter walks on water, and victims always find a way to maintain their victim status." Define 'not well'? “"If something can be saved then I save it. If not, I walk away.” I’m at the stage of putting distance between us because at this point in her life, I am her only conduit to the outside world. While she predominantly exists in her little unworldly bubble, I’m the only person she does anything social with, and my friends have become her acquaintances. She knows some people but she’s not the type to initiate friendships, so I’m the only real friend she has. If she texts me, I’ll respond but I really don’t want to encourage a night out. I’d rather sit home than endure an evening of daughter check-ins, updates, social media scrolling and Broken Recorditis."" Nah, if you know trying to talk to her about it would be blocked, noisily, don't bother. Cut her off. As the speaker, it's our job to ensure we're not boring - actually exasperating - our audience... killing them with drip-drip non-informational tedium. If we are, we can't complain when they stop seeing us. End Of. And then we have to sit and use our wickle heads to work out all the possible reasons why, don't we. If the woman can't manage that then..... Uh-oh!... Those kids are going to be reared by... THREE kids! Just physically bigger ones. Great........ smashing..... JUST what the world needs... more "Benigns" (pff). As for her: she'll have to talk *at* her own agegroup for a change, instead of trying to hang out with the adults.

Impact her... Print this out, slap it under her nose onto the table, say - Good luck, and, since you don't need my help, give me a ring when you're all better! (If she's "a" Narc - she won't...or will, but far too many years on. If she's not a Narc, she'll RING you and 'demand' to know what it's all about and with both barrels.) (It's that or the Dunking Chair. Do you have one hanging around the house anywhere? :D) _______________________________________________________________________________________________________ https://www.attachmentproject.com/psychology/enmeshment/family/ Family enmeshment involves a lack of emotional boundaries between family members, where individual identities blur. It can occur in any relationship, but is most common in parent-child and romantic relationships. While the adverse effect of enmeshment can be significant, knowing that you can break free from it can be reassuring. To answer all of your questions about enmeshment in families, this article will cover: What parental enmeshment is, and how it links with attachment theory The characteristics of an enmeshed mother-child relationship An explanation of the enmeshed father-child relationship How to break free from family enmeshment Parental Enmeshment and Attachment Theory Enmeshment is a term used to describe an overly close and intertwined relationship. It could be between family members or in a romantic relationship. However, in family enmeshment, boundaries between family members blur, with individuals sharing similar thoughts, feelings, and behaviors.... ...Enmeshment can occur in any family system, and it’s often driven by a desire to maintain close relationships or protect family members from harm. However, enmeshment can negatively affect the mental and emotional well-being of family members, especially children. Effects of Enmeshment on Family Members While being close to family members can be comforting, enmeshment is distinctly different. For children, enmeshment can lead to a lack of autonomy and independence. Enmeshed children may feel like they can’t make decisions on their own without their parent’s approval. Furthermore, children experiencing enmeshment may feel guilty or ashamed if they don’t comply with their family’s wishes. They may also struggle to develop their own identity, as their sense of self ties in so closely with their family’s identity. Enmeshed parents may struggle to let go of their children. They may also: Make decisions for them, often leading to feelings of anger, resentment, and guilt in the child in the long run. Feel responsible for their children’s actions and emotions, causing burnout and emotional exhaustion. See their relationships outside the family unit deteriorate as a consequence of continually focusing on their children. Overall, evidence suggests that family enmeshment leads to overall increased family stress and less relationship satisfaction. How Enmeshment Relates to Attachment Theory Attachment theory is a psychological framework that focuses on how people form bonds, particularly during childhood. According to attachment theory, early attachment bonds play a critical role in shaping a person’s sense of self-worth, security, and ability to form healthy relationships in later life. ******** Evidence suggests that anxious attachment is associated with enmeshment. Children from enmeshed families are more likely to have an anxious attachment style. Furthermore, maternal attachment anxiety may increase enmeshment, which can cause a cycle of anxious attachment in their children. ******** It’s important to note that attachment theory isn’t the only factor affecting enmeshment. Many components may influence the extent to which a family is enmeshed. For example, family dynamics can be passed trans-generationally. Enmeshment is likely to occur if the mother, father, OR grandmother experienced enmeshment in their own families. Enmeshment in the Mother Enmeshment mothers typically become so overly involved in their child’s life that it hinders the child’s independence. Various factors can trigger enmeshment in mothers, including: The want to be their child’s “best friend” Losing a child A series of difficult events (such as illness, social difficulties in their own childhood, or trauma). These events can result in “helicopter parenting” (also known as “overparenting”). Helicopter parenting occurs when a parent pays intense attention to their child and fiercely protects them. While protectiveness and attention are good parenting behaviors, extreme levels can stifle a child’s development. However, it’s important to note that enmeshment mothers may not realize that they’re overly involved in their childrens lives... ...Mother-Daughter Enmeshment Mother-daughter enmeshment occurs when the roles between mother and daughter become blurred. This enmeshment results in the daughter having less autonomy and independence. Narcissistic tendencies in the mother can exacerbate enmeshment, leading to a dynamic of narcissistic mother-daughter enmeshment. Signs of mother-daughter enmeshment may include: The mother having an unhealthy amount of control over her daughter’s life The mother being overly involved in her daughter’s life Mother and daughter feeling emotionally fused or dependent on one another The daughter caring for and feeling responsible for her mother’s emotional needs *The daughter experiencing fear of intimacy in romantic relationships A struggle on behalf of the daughter for understanding who she is" ((includes Checklist)) ...."Breaking Free From Family Enmeshment Breaking free from family enmeshment can be challenging, but it is possible. And it has benefits. Understanding and addressing family enmeshment can help you build healthy relationships with friends, family, and romantic partners. What’s more, breaking free from enmeshment can also make you feel more confident in yourself and your identity." ((article continues...)) _______________________________________________________________________________________________________ ((PS: *Yeah...kind of spoils the romantic-bonding mood, doesn't it, if your mother-in-law is constantly around. Subtle Contraception-On-Legs, anyone? There's a lot more to this than meets the eye, eh.)) In short, they're unhealthily Co-Dependent.... co-Enablers. Tweedledumb & Tweedledumber. (Cut this page at the above line, obvs, LOL)

Sorry - too vague: ""Nothing is ever her fault. She is a perpetual victim." You mean genuinely, rather than pretending to be to avoid criticism/advice?"" I meant - 'genuinely' due to the fact she's self-delusioal, really good at convincing herself her lie is truth?...as opposed to, knows she's lying but does it anyway (doesn't care who gets hurt) cos she thinks she doesn't answer to anyone or anything.

Honestly, I don’t believe her daughter or SIL feel any guilt. As I’ve said, I adore her daughter and don’t really fault her because she was raised by a mom who INSISTS on doing everything for her. No was never really an option. Moby may complain to the outside world, but I have seen her many times tell her daughter, “Go do it or go buy it – I’ll pay” or in recent years, “You go out, I’ll watch the kid”. She INSISTS. If Moby had set boundaries early on in her daughter’s life, this entitlement wouldn’t exist. As for the SIL, honestly, I think he’s mean to her. He’s a moody person to begin with and when he’s irritated, he doesn’t hide it. As much as I’m sure he loves having a full-time free nanny so he can do whatever he wants, he’ll turn around and try to exclude her from things when he wants his wife all too himself. Again – I fault Moby for this. She’s hell bent on being involved with them 24/7 and has no regard for the fact that they’re a young couple. She’s more concerned about feeling left out, so she’s constantly offering her time and money – and they’re never going to say “no”. Honestly, if she won the lottery tomorrow, she’d probably give them a good chunk of it and then expect they’ll all hang and travel together around the clock.

RE: The point is, when he finally told her it wasn’t working out and let her go (because the irresponsible behavior continued), she reacted very badly and got extremely defensive about it." What - to him, you mean? What happened? She reacted badly to him by insisting that none of what he was saying - the stuff he actually witnessed - was true. ??? Then she went on a tirade and told anyone and everyone "her version" which was that she did everything right and he was a jerk. I knew firsthand that she did not love the job and that she was not a good employee, so everywhere we went after her firing, I had to listen to her embellish the events and I was becoming more and more irate. That's when I found this site. I needed to vent. I was just absolutely sick to death of listening to her deflect blame and not take responsibility for any of this. Her daughter is almost 30 years old. For the love of God .............. she's more than capable of getting her own lunch, picking up her own groceries and running her own errands. Moby would say, "I need to do X for my pregnant daughter". In the meantime, her very pregnant daughter was actively going to the gym and going to an office 3 days a week. But if you listened to Moby, she was helpless and needed her mother.

Re: But then, don't get a job (duh?). But then, don't get a job (duh?). Do you think with this Nannying set-up they've BOTH got what they secretly wanted? Funny you say that because she used to complain that when she worked for my friend, it was nothing more than a "glorified babysitting job'. That glorified babysitting gig paid her really well and the benefits were phenomenal - full health, dental, 401k, etc. All she needed to do was show up and work a 40-hour week, but she just couldn't do it. The funny part is, she complained about being a paid babysitter only to leave and become an unpaid babysitter with no benefits. She didn't even have healthcare a few months ago and complained to me about the out of pocket costs. So, do I think they both got what they secretly wanted? For her daughter, yes - absolutely. Moby does whatever daughter wants and not only works for free, but she pays for stuff so her daughter is saving more money than ever. As for Moby, I think she wanted it too, but I do not believe she ever really thought it out. I'm not sure that she'll ever admit it, but I wonder if finally realizes that her income took a HUGE hit, healthcare is expensive; daughter and SIL aren't paying her and maybe she regrets giving up a nice income. Furthermore, when her daughter goes back to work (maternity leave ends in January), she's going to have to be at her daughter's house by 6 am every day and probably won't be able to leave until 6 or 7 pm by the time they get home from work. When she worked for my friend, she started between 9:30 and 10 am every day and left well before 5pm. And she got paid ..........

RE: Hubby/Dad died first, you say. What of? Cancer? How old? He died of cancer at 55 - way, way too young. Really good guy! Had he lived, I know for a fact she'd still be working because her husband would have insisted. I also know he'd tell her to let the kids figure out their own stuff and stay out of it because that's the kind of guy he was. He'd love the grandkids and dote on them - that I'm sure of, but he wouldn't be in their house 24/7, around the clock like she is. And he wouldn't advocate for bailing them out of financial situations. He'd want them to grow up and figure it out themselves.

Re: Define 'not well'? Over the years, Moby has complained to me about stuff that her daughter has said or done. For the most part, I just listen. When she and her daughter would have words, and daughter would say something hurtful, I would assure Moby that she didn't mean it - it was just her emotions and I'm sure daughter felt bad for saying it. Many, many times over the years, Moby has vented to me - even outright complained about the daughter's over-the-top spending habits. She does not have the kind of income that warrants high end and designer stuff, but that's what she likes and that's what she buys. Moby will complain about the spending one day and then a few days later, tell me about how they went on a shopping spree and bought all this CRAP. Every time she's done it, I'd say, "But I thought you told me the spending had to stop?" Moby would just ignore my question and keep talking. So, I'd ask again. And again. And finally, I would get a response like, "Well, I paid for her as an early birthday present" or some lame excuse like that. My point is, it's okay when Moby has something negative to share. She can say anything she wants because it's her daughter. But the few times I tried calling out the behavior, she back peddled, got a little "defensive" and downplayed it as her daughter "really needed" whatever stupid thing she had to have, so Moby felt compelled to buy it for her. She will complain but then quickly justify when someone else calls it out. That's what I mean by "not well". Her daughter is all she has and if anyone tells her something she doesn't want to hear, she gets really defensive.

Re: As for her: she'll have to talk *at* her own agegroup for a change, instead of trying to hang out with the adults. Again, funny you mention this. My friend (who fired her) has always said, she's like the child and her daughter is like the parent. In addition to her excessive phone use and non-stop repeat stories about her daughter, SIL and grandkids, the other reason I have created distance is because she honestly has very few interests in life. Someday, those kids are going to be in school and they're going to have play dates with their buds - they're not going to want to hang with Nanny. Her daughter and SIL (if their marriage survives Moby trying to make it a throuple) are going to want to take trips and do things as a family alone. If they start doing things without her, again - she is not going to handle that well. She seems to believe they need to include her in everything or else. I have done a lot of things without her and never told her. I go out with other friends. I don't want to be hurtful, that is not my intention. What I do want is the ability to have really good conversations with others who have interests and see bands with friends who really love music. She is just not that person. No matter what anyone says - ANYONE - she always brings it back to something about her daughter. Every topic boomerangs back to, "My daughter did that and ..." It's exhausting! Honestly, she does not realize that others are annoyed by this. I think she just thinks we aren't doing anything when in reality, we're just doing things without her.

Thank you for the enmeshment information. Man, does that describe her perfectly! I see it as clear as day, and as much as I'd love to "slap it under nose", I absolutely believe that she won't see it. The interesting thing is, she's more of the enmeshed child who can't be autonomous or independent; or make a decision without her daughter's approval. That's the twist in all of this. She's the one struggling to establish her own identity. Conversely, I am a very independent person, so that is largely why her behaviors have gotten under my skin. And selfishly, I want friends who have interests and ambitions .......... and who want to go out and have life experiences without being glued to a cell phone or having to check in on their adult children every 5 minutes. I want to listen to music on a road trip, not a daughter's voice coming through the car speakers. I want to see and do when I go on vacations, not spend countless hours in overpriced souvenir shops so my travel companion can find the perfect trinkets an adult kid that doesn't need more crap. And then continue to call said adult kid to ask about colors, sizes etc. while she's shopping in said overpriced souvenir shops. No thanks!

Re: Nothing is ever her fault. She is a perpetual victim." You mean genuinely, rather than pretending to be to avoid criticism/advice?"" I meant - 'genuinely' due to the fact she's self-delusioal, really good at convincing herself her lie is truth?...as opposed to, knows she's lying but does it anyway (doesn't care who gets hurt) cos she thinks she doesn't answer to anyone or anything. She has a very difficult time owning her mistakes. Even when she admits that something went wrong, it's always because someone told her to do it or didn't tell her how to do it - or she got bad information or mixed signals. Whatever it is, it was not her fault, and the "victim mentality" just grates on me! It's the same thing when she vents or asks for advice. In the past, I've tried to help her. Then after listening to her (on repeat) complain over and over, and giving her advice, she does nothing. I guess it's just easier to stay the course, do nothing and continue complaining than change for some people.

I have hardly seen or talked to her since the end of summer. A few of us have season tickets to a local theater, so we drive together about once a month. As expected, her topics range from daughter's shopping finds to daughter's this and daughter's that ... daughter and SIL .... and kid this and kid that. I'd love to ask her, "when is the last time you read a book", but I fear that will catapult her into a daughter story that I've probably already heard 16 times. Even these theater trips have become a source of frustration because while we take turns driving, we're also supposed to take turns paying for concessions and she has yet to pay ..... even once. She doesn't even reach for her wallet when we're standing at the counter and I'm tired of it. I'm curious to ask what you would say to someone in that situation. I do not think it's unreasonable to expect her to take her turn, but again, I'm not sure there is a polite way to ask someone, "Do you expect me to pay every time or are you do you want me to pay and you can just Venmo me your portion?" Truth is, I shouldn't have to say anything. She should just step up and pay like everyone else.

Speaking of paying, she still owes me money for a few Ubers from earlier this year, but I let that go. I sent her the receipts multiple times, but she never paid and I never pushed issue. Now she's doing it with the theater stuff. I'm not a cheap person. Honestly, I don't care. I'll buy a pair of concert tickets and give one to a friend. I'm not the, "You owe me $43.63" person. But in this case, it seems everywhere we go lately, she's very comfortable with someone else picking up the tab and she never offers to pay or reimburse for her portion. It's $10 here, $20 there ...... and over time, it's adding up. If the reason she's not paying is because she's not working, it's not fair for her to expect others to just pick up the tabs. I feel like a comment is warranted.

Hi Philameena! I wondered where you'd got to; good to hear from you. I'm up against it today and tomorroow, but I'll be with you by Sunday. :)

Apologies for the delayed responses. Things just got a little crazy busy for a few weeks!

Oh, geez, don't apologise to me - LOOK AT ME! Megats Covid (again). Recovery is very up and down. RIGHT in the middle of a busynami! Grumble-grumble...Where were we? 1st response (12 Dec, 00.08): "Honestly, I don’t believe her daughter or SIL feel any guilt." Then they are horrible people. "As I’ve said, I adore her daughter and don’t really fault her because she was raised by a mom who INSISTS on doing everything for her. No was never really an option. Moby may complain to the outside world, but I have seen her many times tell her daughter, “Go do it or go buy it – I’ll pay” or in recent years, “You go out, I’ll watch the kid”. She INSISTS. If Moby had set boundaries early on in her daughter’s life, this entitlement wouldn’t exist." Fairenoughski, m'Colleague. :) It's called, 'Creating a rod for your own back' - or, 'It'll come back and bite you on the bum'. (Video voiceover man)...."Sheee was just a norr-mal woman...yet SOMEHOWWWWWW, she crea-ded a mon-sturrr!". "As for the SIL, honestly, I think he’s mean to her." Oh IS he. How exceedingly interestink. Is he 'the Mother Ship'? "He’s a moody person to begin with and when he’s irritated, he doesn’t hide it." Moody. Achrrrch! And Rude with it. EEEEEEEurrrgh! (spit) And I'll bet it doesn't make much to irritate him, either. Correct (assuming you know?)? Has Violet-Elizabeth, either knowinglt or unknowingly, married her 'father', by any chance? "As much as I’m sure he loves having a full-time free nanny so he can do whatever he wants," Do whatever he wants? And what does that tend to be, pray tell? Do you mean - NOT give HIS support...because Violet-Elizabeth has a husband-substitute in his MIL? "he’ll turn around and try to exclude her from things when he wants his wife all too himself." So you mean - wants MIL when it suits him, distinctly-doesn't when it doesn't? You mean, the rules constantly change, based on nothing but his whims? "Again – I fault Moby for this. She’s hell bent on being involved with them 24/7 and has no regard for the fact that they’re a young couple." Or maybe she's rescuing Violet (as above suspicion)? Come on, gal - gimmie ALL the goods and I'm sure yours and my brain can crack this little mystery (insert Cookie-Monster "nom-nom-nom" noises). Bet you 50 Quid he's worse than them - a Narc-Sociopath! Got a little harem of slavey women, by the sounds of it. Yeh? Ya with me, m'Colleague? "She’s more concerned about feeling left out, so she’s constantly offering her time and money – and they’re never going to say “no”." They would if they were a decent couple. So let's recap: she waits for him to give his permission, but still has to pay in time and/or money to be around her own daughter. She has therefore to pounce on any invitaton or non-embargo. Is the mist clearing good for you, too, darlin'? (Lights cigarette) (haha - joke) "Honestly, if she won the lottery tomorrow, she’d probably give them a good chunk of it and then expect they’ll all hang and travel together around the clock." Only they wouldn't. They'd be off! Or he would and Violet would follow. So what pseudonym do we give this, suggestably, small-time slave-trader-so-called-son-in-law? The thlot pickens, doesn't it, eh? The thlot pickens, but the clist mears. (Doonerism, sparling) (I'm ill - let me....I need cheering-up, lol)

PS: If what I now suspect (based on your further data) - Moby and Violet would be rocking round the clock then all-too-quickly DUCKING round the clock. (S'ow it goes.) (Sow, because male sociopaths are rabid PIGS!)

2nd post: (I really like these little 'petit four' posts, btw - cheers for that!) (Pictures would be good too, but I understand the technical constraints here, .....mekin' meself laff, at least.) (Anyway, I already know full well what a rabid pig looks like - outside AND in. Still...cheaper than lab rabbits, haha.) "RE: The point is, when he finally told her it wasn’t working out and let her go (because the irresponsible behavior continued), she reacted very badly and got extremely defensive about it." What - to him, you mean? What happened? She reacted badly to him by insisting that none of what he was saying - the stuff he actually witnessed - was true. ???" Narc Denial: 'I AM looking up and - ON MY DAUGHTER'S LIFE, the Sky is Green!'. Or 'Which sky - where?!' (etc.) Or - 'Well, what about YOU and (insert some made-up crime committed a decade previously)!' Here - (quick thought) - if he's that brutally rude, uber-cantankerous and hurtful to his MIL - imagine how much worse he is towards his wife? Especially when it's just the two of them behind closed doors? If he's that unbridled in situations and settings where one self-bridles - I imagine 'the Narc Minor' that is Violet, would do as she was told by Narc Major, don't you? E.g. - 'Phone your mother - she'll know! Go on - phone her! ....SOD her job - if her boss doesn't understand that family comes before money ((over-simplication courtesy of conveniently forgetting that if there's no food, there's no more family)), then he's an idiot and she shouldn't be working for him! (etc.). Anyway, I thought you said he was a push-over?... (etc.)" I'm getting the distinct impression that these women are used to being pushed around - aren't you? Anyhoo.. "Then she went on a tirade and told anyone and everyone "her version" which was that she did everything right and he was a jerk." Did SIL manage to convince her of that, we wonder? Does she normally talk like that, using the word jerk, for example? I've found it's a word used more by men to describe other men. (click-click-whirr-whirr...?) (Forget my request for data - you're positively leaking it now. WHICH IS EXCELLENT - don't stop! I mean - consider what I've just put....(squeaky voice) TINY-TINY clues! MINISCULE! Immaterial little by-the-bys. But which mean so soooooo much.) "I knew firsthand that she did not love the job and that she was not a good employee," Presumably because boss friend was confiding in you? Or just what you picked-up on? (You pick-up on a hell of a lot. You just don't (er - didn't) know you do.) "so everywhere we went after her firing, I had to listen to her embellish the events and I was becoming more and more irate." Well, that's because you weren't LOADING it right, and the damn thing was jamming! Tsk...cuh... (Haha - bet you wished :D) (MILLY-Molly-Moby is a carbon-copy of a nearly-friend of mine, btw. It's like the same beeping set-up and story all over again. And that's the Narc Playbook for ya. If Cluster B madness is turning Purple whilst waddling and quacking like a duck - all those with NPD will accordingly waddle and quack, 'purple-ly'. With Narcs, you literally, legitimately can say. 'They're all the bleedin'same!" Just FYI. May as well teach you as we go. :)) "That's when I found this site." Ahhhh. :) (((((Hug))))))) "I needed to vent." Pff. Call that venting? No swear-words or nuffin....and I made all this Popcorn...! (ignore me) (it won't work but it'll make you feel better lol) "I was just absolutely sick to death of listening to her deflect blame and not take responsibility for any of this." So is everyone here, now. Cheers! HAHAHAHAH (joke) "Her daughter is almost 30 years old." OMG! "For the love of God" And that! ".............. she's more than capable of getting her own lunch, picking up her own groceries and running her own errands." So was Henry The Eighth. (...Well, at least until he got so rapidly obese his skin split in places and got infected (jousting injury my arse - this is a Dark Tetrad super-greedy NARC we're talking about!)). "Moby would say, "I need to do X for my pregnant daughter". In the meantime, her very pregnant daughter was actively going to the gym and going to an office 3 days a week. But if you listened to Moby, she was helpless and needed her mother." Er.... so - which? (a) Violet-Liz is so clueless/'Kittenified', she'd foolishly insist on still going to the gym and office, then wonder why she was so knackered afterwards, and have to call Mumsy-Wumsy? (b) V knew she COULD go to the gym (rather than do the housework/shopping) because Slave No. 2 was always waiting to-attention in the butler's annexe and would harry forth upon but a clicke of ye spoilede fingers? (c) Moby was just justifying her slaveish-ness?

Chapter-ette 3 : "Re: But then, don't get a job (duh?). Do you think with this Nannying set-up they've BOTH got what they secretly wanted?" "Funny you say that" (Haha - you'll get used to it.) "because she used to complain that when she worked for my friend, it was nothing more than a "glorified babysitting job'." In what way? What was her role - and for whom (said babysitting)? "That glorified babysitting gig paid her really well and the benefits were phenomenal - full health, dental, 401k, etc." WTF? 401 Thousand? What - Rupees or Dollars?! :O Yeah - what WAS her job role?! "All she needed to do was show up and work a 40-hour week, but she just couldn't do it." Did I mention before to 'gimmie the gun'? "The funny part is, she complained about being a paid babysitter only to leave and become an unpaid babysitter with no benefits." Maybe she prefers real babies...because they don't answer back?? Or maybe, as soon as Voilet and Swine-In-Law go out, she sits the kids in front of the telly and makes loads of phonecalls or whatever? Narcs do not want to have to actually WORK for the salary or perks. Anyway, if she can AFFORD to work for those two for-free, then, obviously she has money (despite her noises). Yeah? Otherwise, how could it work? "She didn't even have healthcare a few months ago and complained to me about the out of pocket costs." Mmm. Refer to above suspicion of 'mis-advertising'. (The listener would feel greater sympathy than if she were rich and didn't need to earn her living, wouldn't they - think about it.) "So, do I think they both got what they secretly wanted? For her daughter, yes - absolutely." AND - as we've established - Swine-in-Law. When and only when it suits Him-Him-Him. "Moby does whatever daughter wants and not only works for free, but she pays for stuff so her daughter is saving more money than ever." Orrr - Violet knows Moby absolutely IS rich? Rich fits. Not Rich or Struggling, don't. Can we agree on that? "As for Moby, I think she wanted it too, but I do not believe she ever really thought it out." Probably not. Neither she nor Violet sound as if they're used to taking responsibility enough to consider outcomes and consequences (shown in their lack of sensible-ness). "I'm not sure that she'll ever admit it, but I wonder if finally realizes that her income took a HUGE hit, healthcare is expensive; daughter and SIL aren't paying her and maybe she regrets giving up a nice income." How do you know they're not paying her, though (bar her establishedly-OUTRIGHT-LYING MOUTH - refer to poor Boss guy)? "Furthermore, when her daughter goes back to work (maternity leave ends in January), she's going to have to be at her daughter's house by 6 am every day and probably won't be able to leave until 6 or 7 pm by the time they get home from work. When she worked for my friend, she started between 9:30 and 10 am every day and left well before 5pm. And she got paid .........." Nah. She'll move in. And then regret it. PS: I am GAGGING to know what this job of hers was! It sounds like a DREAM job!

Chapter-ette-ette 4: "RE: Hubby/Dad died first, you say. What of? Cancer? How old? He died of cancer at 55 - way, way too young. Really good guy! Had he lived, I know for a fact she'd still be working because her husband would have insisted. I also know he'd tell her to let the kids figure out their own stuff and stay out of it because that's the kind of guy he was. He'd love the grandkids and dote on them - that I'm sure of, but he wouldn't be in their house 24/7, around the clock like she is. And he wouldn't advocate for bailing them out of financial situations. He'd want them to grow up and figure it out themselves." You haven't asked how on earth I was spot-on. Wanna? How do you know for a fact he was a really good guy? Would have insisted, eh? Yuh, I imagine Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber WERE very-very hard work, yahz, and had to be repeatedly micro-managed. Or the micromanagement led to the Learned Helplessness? Chicken or Egg?... (May I?) ("Sure!") (Cheers!) ...Well, I'm sure you and I are going to crack it. (insert wheezy laughter)

Parte Cinc: ""Re: Define 'not well'?" "Over the years, Moby has complained to me about stuff that her daughter has said or done." Like what? "For the most part, I just listen." ((Whilst trying to un-jam the gun.)) "When she and her daughter would have words, and daughter would say something hurtful," Like what? "I would assure Moby that she didn't mean it - it was just her emotions and I'm sure daughter felt bad for saying it." On what basis in terms of evidence? How did YOU know she didn't, or that it was 'just', or that Violet felt bad? Don't do that, mate. I know you mean extremely well - that's really obvious. But, doing that is inadvertent, accidental Gaslighting (denying her reality) (add: 'possibly'). Unless you did have first-hand evidence?? "Many, many times over the years, Moby has vented to me" Many MANY, noted NOTED. "- even outright complained about the daughter's over-the-top spending habits." Like what? "She does not have the kind of income that warrants high end and designer stuff," Living outside of her means, noted (Spath trait, but can be 2nd-hand (bullied into spending to ensure approval)). "but that's what she likes and that's what she buys." Toys R Us. They didn't go down, they couldn't keep up with production. (Mwa-ha-ha) "Moby will complain about the spending one day and then a few days later, tell me about how they went on a shopping spree and bought all this CRAP." Then she's either in one mind but half the time lying, OR she is torn (in two minds). Google "Narc Victim Cognitive Dissonance". OR, trying to be resolute but on-off failing based on needs-must (to secure an invitation to be included, e.g.). Which do you reckon - if you had to put money on it? "Every time she's done it, I'd say, "But I thought you told me the spending had to stop?" Moby would just ignore my question and keep talking." 'What sky - where?!' "So, I'd ask again. And again." (Conspiratorial, approving grin.) (You little Narc-Slaying devil in-the-making, you, heheheh.) ("Thlup!") "And finally, I would get a response like, "Well, I paid for her as an early birthday present" or some lame excuse like that." Lie. (Or half-arsed resolution. Same thing.) Come the birthday, Violet'd get the present anyway. (Correct - if you know?) "My point is, it's okay when Moby has something negative to share. She can say anything she wants because it's her daughter. But the few times I tried calling out the behavior, she back peddled, got a little "defensive" and downplayed it as her daughter "really needed" whatever stupid thing she had to have, so Moby felt compelled to buy it for her." Actually, I think that last sentance is the truth. But she means PRESS-GANGED, not compelled. Press-ganged first...THEN compelled (because 'she owes her'). "She will complain but then quickly justify when someone else calls it out." Narcs are allowed to criticise or downright attack their own. But no-one else is. If they do, the Narc (world revolves around them) takes it as a personal attack on them and rushes to defend. Even if, as you've observed, it poses a direct contrdiction. " That's what I mean by "not well"." By 'not well', you mean, effing fruit-loopy....as nutty as a lorry load of fruit-cake........ and, as thick as pig-poo with it - yeh? ....And yet morbidly-...UTTERLY...fascinating. ;) I know the problem haha. "Her daughter is all she has" No, her daughter will be all she has once you give her the elbow (once we've completed the investigation). "and if anyone tells her something she doesn't want to hear, she gets really defensive." And if anyone tells her something she doesn't want to hear, she acts like a typical Narc. Yahz. :)

(Tsk - cinque, not cinc, hhhhhhjjjrrrr!) PS: "tell her to let the kids figure out their own stuff and stay out of it because that's the kind of guy he was. He'd love the grandkids and dote on them - that I'm sure of, but he wouldn't be in their house 24/7, around the clock like she is. And he wouldn't advocate for bailing them out of financial situations. He'd want them to grow up and figure it out themselves." Yeah. Maybe he did. Maybe he was TOO tough-loving and not sympathetic and understanding enough, as would explain why The Guilts get Moby every time, even when she tries to say No; can't then sustain it - and, likewise, why Voilet-Liz insists (under-the-table) that Mamma owes her. Yeah? Anyway, definitely sounds like Dad wore the trousers and out-voted the pair of them, doesn't it.

(Cinq! Jeez, I'm losing my French! It's all this Spanish.) (Parles-toi le Francaise?) Post 6: ""Re: As for her: she'll have to talk *at* her own agegroup for a change, instead of trying to hang out with the adults. Again, funny you mention this." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! (sorry, hahaha!) "My friend (who fired her)" Yeah! See more of him, defo! And give him a High Five from me! (He was morbidly fascinated too, was he? LOL) "(My friend (who fired her)) has always said, she's like the child and her daughter is like the parent." But interchangeable (usually). QUESTION: Never mind their on-paper ages - tell me how old YOU believe each of them are underneath (and ditto for SIL). "In addition to her excessive phone use" Don't you mean, 'to her baby-sitting'? ;) "and non-stop repeat stories about her daughter," ((BANG!)) "SIL and grandkids," ((BANG BANG!)) "the other reason I have created distance" DO YA NEED ONE?!?! Hahahahahahahaaaaa!! (I know...Morbid Curiosity.) (It IS theeeee most fascinating mental illness, though, isn't it. Good god yeah.) " is because she honestly has very few interests in life." Is because I feel sorry for her. (Know this: I can bolt-cut that chain for you, in-one, any time you like. I have other 'investigations'. Saying that, if you want to finish this, so that you understand every facet of it and can completely avoid or insta-escape from her type or an actual Malignant 'next' time - we can do that too. You have a 24/7 Off Button, is the point - just say the word. :)) (I'm no sadist.) "Someday, those kids are going to be in school and they're going to have play dates with their buds - they're not going to want to hang with Nanny. Her daughter and SIL (if their marriage survives Moby trying to make it a throuple)" A throuple - hahaha! - LOVE IT! Haven't heard that saying before - is it yours? "are going to want to take trips and do things as a family alone. If they start doing things without her, again - she is not going to handle that well." Yup. And, Nope. "She seems to believe they need to include her in everything or else." Hopefully not literally everything (ewwwww!). "I have done a lot of things without her and never told her. I go out with other friends. I don't want to be hurtful, that is not my intention." You're an Highly Inquisitive Angel. "What I do want is the ability to have really good conversations with others who have interests and see bands with friends who really love music. She is just not that person." No. "No matter what anyone says - ANYONE - she always brings it back to something about her daughter." ((BANG!)) "Every topic boomerangs back to, "My daughter did that and ..." It's exhausting!" Oh, I know. Trust me - I KNOWWWWW, hahahaha. It needn't be, though. BUT....you actually don't get ANYTHING from this so-called frie- wait a minute, yes you do. You get to satisfy your frustrated inner psychologist. You're a study slut like me, aren't you, heheh. Fairenoughski. "Honestly, she does not realize that others are annoyed by this." I know! It's literally incredible, isn't it! "I think she just thinks we aren't doing anything when in reality, we're just doing things without her." Yuh. A case of 'Ignorance is Bliss'. No point in upsetting her. The trump card, however, is this: It's none of her bloody business WHAT you do, with whom, or when.... What dya think of THEM apples, then? (Read that again, please, missus. Ta.) QUESTION: Whom from your past does she remind you of?

Post 7: ""Thank you for the enmeshment information." De nada! / Ce n'etai rien! "Man, does that describe her perfectly!" Yeah, it's funny I should have said that. (*ducks*) "I see it as clear as day, and as much as I'd love to "slap it under nose", I absolutely believe that she won't see it. The interesting thing is, she's more of the enmeshed child who can't be autonomous or independent; or make a decision without her daughter's approval. That's the twist in all of this. She's the one struggling to establish her own identity." Yup! All she was allowed to be, was a Mother. When it suited. But not when it didn't. (Gosh, who's that reminding us of?) Psst! I know how to get her to read it, guaranteed. Wanna know how? "Conversely, I am a very independent person, so that is largely why her behaviors have gotten under my skin." AND because you just KNOW that if ever anything happened to her and her daughter's relationship - like a falling-out or daughter moving house to a far-away location - you'd be up next. Did you know that you knew that? How much older (on-paper) than you is she, anyway, just out of interest? "And selfishly, I want friends who have interests and ambitions" Selfishly? Nay. Just 'typically'. You're the normal-healthy one. ".......... and who want to go out and have life experiences without being glued to a cell phone or having to check in on their adult children every 5 minutes." Normal. "I want to listen to music on a road trip, not a daughter's voice coming through the car speakers." Ohhhh WHAT?!?! ((BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG!.........BANG!)) Madam? You have the patience of a Saint! (So who from your past over-stretched that mere-mortal muscle?) "I want to see and do when I go on vacations, not spend countless hours in overpriced souvenir shops so my travel companion can find the perfect trinkets an adult kid that doesn't need more crap." TWO Saints!!!! "And then continue to call said adult kid to ask about colors, sizes etc. while she's shopping in said overpriced souvenir shops. No thanks!" Yeah - don't fancy yours much. :D (You gotta laugh about it - or else you'd cry, eh.)

Messaje Ocho: ""Re: Nothing is ever her fault. She is a perpetual victim." "You mean genuinely, rather than pretending to be to avoid criticism/advice?" "I meant - 'genuinely' due to the fact she's self-delusioal, really good at convincing herself her lie is truth?...as opposed to, knows she's lying but does it anyway (doesn't care who gets hurt) cos she thinks she doesn't answer to anyone or anything."" Refuses to let others influence her, noted. (Narc trait.) "She has a very difficult time owning her mistakes. Even when she admits that something went wrong, it's always because someone told her to do it or didn't tell her how to do it - or she got bad information or mixed signals. Whatever it is, it was not her fault, and the "victim mentality" just grates on me!" It does, aye. Now imagine she was your mother and you grew up with that....trapped with it... "It's the same thing when she vents or asks for advice. In the past, I've tried to help her. Then after listening to her (on repeat) complain over and over, and giving her advice, she does nothing." 'Brick Wall Syndrome' I call it. Another typical Narc trait. You can start to feel completely powerless and ineffectual, LIKE a brick wall, being talked AT, rather than to or with. "I guess it's just easier to stay the course, do nothing and continue complaining than change for some people." Yeah, it can be. Unless you use it as your opportunity to study-up, and to a depth most don't get the chance to do...and whereby you become impervious to her nonsense, save for being grateful for another nugget of information-is-power. ....Oh wait - you meant Moby! ;) (kick me later) I'm only teasing. :x I could tell from the start that you're staying because you've realised this is going to prove highly useful to you in the longer run. And as I've said and intimated - I agree! Cos look at me! How helpless-feeling and fazed do *I* sound? You either walk away - properly - or you deal with them and it - properly. I fail to see, however, how quitting such a rare opportunity can benefit anyone whom, by all evidence, Narcs find highly attractive. After all - your probing won't be comfortable for her any more than her lunatic behaviour is for you. And yet, she's not chucking you, either, is she (for being a truth-sayer). So let's accept what this situation all adds up to for you: a rare (secret) study course with a live one. You'll find-out ALL sorts of useful stuff. 'Knowledge is Power' is true. (And that's why I'm a cocky little basstd haha.)

Post 9: "I have hardly seen or talked to her since the end of summer. A few of us have season tickets to a local theater, so we drive together about once a month." Nice! "As expected, her topics range from daughter's shopping finds to daughter's this and daughter's that ... daughter and SIL .... and kid this and kid that. I'd love to ask her, "when is the last time you read a book", but I fear that will catapult her into a daughter story that I've probably already heard 16 times." Narcs tend NOT to read books. (Takes fully-functioning Empathy to 'connect' to anything, including someone else's story or experience/knowledge.) They tend not to have ANY hobbies (too busy socially climbing or trampling). Healthy people with envious qualities (like yours) are LITERALLY, just psychologically, their oxygen supply. (PS: 'Just'. Pfff!) "Even these theater trips have become a source of frustration because while we take turns driving, we're also supposed to take turns paying for concessions and she has yet to pay ..... even once. She doesn't even reach for her wallet when we're standing at the counter and I'm tired of it." She's either a Covert or a Narc-Spath (Overt as a cover for/distraction from Covert). So that's how she doesn't mind dipping into her savings when 'necessary'. How much does she owe you in total now? Are you ('the sky is NOT Blue!') SURE you're her only friend? Or could she be lying (because it helps you feel sorry for and obliged toward her), and failing to pay with other people whom you know nothing about? After all, if she pulls that act with myriad others, even if it were just 20-40 Quid at-a-time - that soon adds up, doesn't it, eh? Have a thinkipoos... "I'm curious to ask what you would say to someone in that situation." 'Can you cough-up the dosh you've owed me for the last x months, please?'. "I do not think it's unreasonable to expect her to take her turn," Well, of course it isn't! Who said it was??? Compare: 'I know it's not unreasonable to expect her to take her turn'. Why did you have to 'THINK' it's not? Why so unsure? "but again, I'm not sure there is a polite way to ask someone, "Do you expect me to pay every time or are you do you want me to pay and you can just Venmo me your portion?" Truth is, I shouldn't have to say anything. She should just step up and pay like everyone else." "Truth is, I shouldn't have to say anything. " - CORRECT! "She should just step up and pay like everyone else." - CORRECT! Ergo, she is NOT behaving like everyone else, aka, according to socially-acceptable rules of person-person interaction. And what do we call that, children? Answer: Anti-Social. *But a bit blurry, and just 'petty' amounts*. Drip....drip.....drip.... Case Closed (on her): Covert. Tell me about your first year of knowing her. How over-far forward did she put her 'best foot', whereby enough time passed in which to (goddammit) get attached (as well as feel sorry for her)? Or did she (deliberately, contrivedly, by-rote) make some (at-the-time relatively-speaking) grand gesture that you'll forever feel grateful for, despite now realising it was all contrived and nothing LIKE her more real self? Are you feeling (or finally registering) this: 'Who are YOU and what have you done with my friend?!'? Aka, Invasion Of The Body-Snatchers. ?

She's rich. She tells you she's stuggling. But then her actions give away her lie. And then don't. And then do..... (No wonder you're confused on this point.) (She's just insecure and money-grabbing and stock-piling...doesn't want to touch her savings. She wants to be buried in the stuff.) THAT way....(drum-roll)..... You're unlikely to "be so insensitive and hard-hearted!" as to dare ask her to cough-up what she owe-owe-owes you. INNIT. In reality, she has more than one 'You'. She might not even see them very often - or at all - in-the-flesh, just phone "friends" (supply). So now imagine all those 'petty little' loans, with our without the 'regular Banker's' consent, that never, ever get paid back. And add them up. Now picture this: Tuesday: "I can't afford it!" (about Daughter) Wednesday: X number of her secret Supplies surprise her by (giving into the guilty and sense of loyalty and) coming through, each 'loaning' (or gifting) her 20, 30, 40, 50 Quid. Maybe more? Thursday: "Weeell, I know I said I wouldn't, buuuut... really, it's her early Birthday present (not)". It's a strong possibility, isn't it. It fits. Including, all that time, spent on the phone. Including the constant texting (i.e. you don't always hear her daughter, even when she says that's who it is/was...so you only have her word for it...and what a great alias her daughter unwittingly poses as). What I can't work out, is which of those three is the Head Honcho. Keep talking, missus... :) QUESTION: What's SIL's background/history?

Lots and lots to absorb, thank you! I am going to tackle each response in sections so I don't miss anything.

“Oh, geez, don't apologise to me - LOOK AT ME! Megats Covid (again). Recovery is very up and down. RIGHT in the middle of a busynami! Grumble-grumble...Where were we? 1st response (12 Dec, 00.08): Honestly, I don’t believe her daughter or SIL feel any guilt. Then they are horrible people .. It's called, 'Creating a rod for your own back' - or, 'It'll come back and bite you on the bum'.” “Then they are horrible people.” I agree that it’s a horrible way to treat a parent – to treat any human, but I can’t help but feel like said parent brought this on herself with a lifetime of conditioning. As we noted earlier, it’s classic Pavlov’s dogs. Her daughter was rewarded her entire life for this type of behavior, so the conditioning has been completely embedded into her DNA. She has been raised to expect that when she wants, she gets. Yes, Moby created a monster and now that monster controls her life, but Moby has absolutely no desire to confront the monster, set boundaries and encourage her daughter to take full ownership of her life. This relationship is never going to change. As for the S-I-L, he’s not as direct as Moby’s husband was – he’s more passive aggressive. Dad always spoke his mind and was most definitely the person in charge of the household decisions. In this “throuple”, the daughter is that person – she calls all the shots and hubby and Moby fall in line. I can only presume that is why S-I-L is so moody and always looks like someone stole his lunch money - like he's always pissed off, even when he’s not pissed off. He doesn’t have a very “happy” demeanor. For years, Moby complained to me about how he’d leave messes in her house. He’d trash her kitchen making something to eat and leave the mess for her to clean up. He’d rarely help her with yardwork, and she’d have to ask him over-and-over for help to do the simplest things. He is the type of person that puts his own needs before everyone else’s. For example, if there is a 1-hour window of daylight when he gets home from work and there is something to be done outside (that wife or mother-in-law need him to do), but he wants to go to the gym, he will go to the gym. That’s been his thing for years. "Me first" is his motto. If the toddler needed to be picked up from daycare early because he wasn’t feeling well, Moby would leave work and do it because S-I-L didn’t want to leave work. They were constantly trying to shuffle that kid around and 99% of the time, Moby would be the taxi service. In the end, S-I-L wasn’t fired – Moby was, which was her own fault. But in the end, oh well, not S-I-L’s problem. Fast forward to the toddler’s birthday and Father’s Day earlier this year. S-I-L tried to make plans without Moby and she had a near meltdown over being excluded. I had to listen to her go on and on about how she was being left out. I wanted to say, “get a life”, but I just sat there patiently listening to her whine incessantly. In the end, S-I-L caved and included her, and I’m presuming this was because daughter forced it and I’m sure Moby offered to contribute monetarily. I say this because we were at the gym the day before and I heard her say to daughter, “I’ll pick up the steaks and see you later…” The bottom line is, Moby continues to offer her time and money so she can stay in their lives. It’s like paying membership dues for rights to an exclusive club. And sadly, every time the daughter posts pictures on social media of their family outings – trips to pumpkin patches and Santa visits, for example, it’s daughter, S-I-L and the kids – no Moby. She’s never included in any of their family photos. It’s like they need her, but she’s not allowed in the pictures. We have one of our theatre shows in a few days, so it’s guaranteed she’s going to suck all the oxygen out of the air during the car ride, making sure we hear every stupid, meaningless detail about her daughter’s Christmas decorations, shopping/Santa trips, coupons and so on. What I’d love to say to her is, “Yes, I know because I saw all the photos online. But why aren’t you ever in ANY of them???????” I’m sure her answer is going to be, “oh, I took those pictures”. I dread these car rides, but the gal who goes with us is BRILLIANT at changing the subject when Moby gets going on daughter stories! ;-) More later .................

Do yourself (and me - ow, my head and lug-holes!) a favour and take your tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiimmmmmme....you are feeeeeeling sleeeeepyyyyyyyy...........veeeeeryyy SLEEEEEEEEE-PYYYYYYYYYYY.... Whoof! Think I nodded-off for a bit there!!!

Hey Philadeena! Have you had a good Crimbo? Just wondering: did you want me to wait for the "more later...." or respond to what you've put so far? I'm easy either way so just let me know?

Philadeena??? Where did THAT come from?! Haha - sorry! PS: feel free to join-in on the Crimbo Muck-About thread, btw. :)

Hi there! More to come soon, I promise ..... I've been a wee bit busy with the holiday stuff.

That's okay - no hurry at this end - just as long as I know we're not done yet and can keep this thread open by posting/bumping it up. :) Speak soon(ish), then!

Just bumping you up as promised :).

Ditto (keeping your thread activated)...

I think you should introduce your friend to Bob. Bob is your "imaginary" friend. Yes it IS a real thing, Bob CAN be what ever you want. It IS simply a release - Bob can have whatever attributes you choose Take it in whatever direction you choose It is just the idea of this, bob character will also become your widowed friend`s friend also Here is an idea - this IS Bob - Bob IS real https://www.amazon.co.uk/FDC-Inflatable-Man/dp/B00FF1F2G6/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.kwnO0oHiV-YUbhrATciU_g32sOu1lD8RUDSUR19JQYo80l1LO9070ybX0Nj94EXs3ozzBB0OGmtq8nh0xHuGWZEueRso21Qg_Xp2WaNXRDzSw-bI7dfdKjWbXXlFhUo2_3Uru0MD8vRcGUYUVa28ugPGVIlP9Lb77O-THKIwqxt3CgEaUjfut6pz3Gei06kR3Up5GTXcQf2BJIYgokHwLAz0MYvD-IqtAc1wXxElMnly1I7hGqrpkBCo0ZKQaU1f7Z6QvuFDRzQQNTELrf2n3S3GlOYDAnYiO3iI322VyIY.cRjIGEpWYtYCycF6vPuAiU0GvhDszHi2s1RPYvtBQ8g&dib_tag=se&keywords=inflatable+man&qid=1772159017&sr=8-1

"Bob IS reaL" .. HILARIOUS! My friend would drive Bob nuts too, I'm sad to say ...

I haven't had a lot of contact with "Moby" since before the holidays and it has been nice. I figured time and distance would do me some good, and I was right. Then out of the blue, I received a message from her a few days ago asking if I was attending a function this weekend to which I responded, "yes". Without missing a beat, she informed me that she wanted to go but "needed to make sure someone was available to watch the kids". Watch the kids? They're not her kids. As much as it pained me not to point out the obvious, I took the high road and didn't respond - have not heard from her since. I wish her well in life but I just ............ I just can't do this any longer. Her daughter is a grown woman with a husband. This woman's obsession with being a third co-parent is something I cannot deal with.

Truth be told, I don't want to be at an event with her. I don't want to be stuck listening to her repeat the same boring stories over and over. No matter what I say, she will find a way to bring it back to how her daughter went through the same thing or bought one of those - - - or had a problem with this or that. And as I've stated before, I don't have the heart to tell her to STFU, so I have avoided her. And I plan to continue to avoid her. I like my life better this way. I've had numerous conversations with others in my age group about outgrowing friends. This is way more common that I realized. The reasons vary, but I've met others who for various reasons have found themselves putting distance where needed. It's liberating.

I don't think this is complicated. The kids have parents. If Grandma Moby really wants to go out on a Friday night, she should make plans and go out. It's the job of the parents to make sure the kids have supervision. But that's not how Moby rolls .... First, Moby needs to "check in" to make sure daughter doesn't need her. If daughter needs her, she "can't" go out. If daughter tells her to go out, she goes out. But then she texts back-and-forth with daughter the entire time she's out. She continuously provides everyone up-to-the-minute updates on what daughter is doing (including photos) throughout the course of the evening (because everyone loves having a phone shoved in their face). Sadly, Moby believes this is normal. Clearly, we all have a different interpretation of what "normal" is.

At some point, I suspect she's going to ask me why I haven't initiated any outings with her; as if it's my responsibility to keep her social calendar full. If and when that day arrives, I plan to tell her that unless she contacts me, I just assume she's on child duty. It's not up to me to initiate anything, and I certainly have no interest in listening to her go on and on about kids, diapers, shopping trips, tantrums and all the other BS like it's ***BREAKING NEWS***. Toddlers have tantrums. Babies cry. Kids get sick. Stores run out of supplies. Every single time I see her, this is all she talks about and it's presented in a way that makes it seem like no one has ever endured a screaming child before. This is the life she has chosen. Good for her. I need to be around people who have interests in life.

Just bumping you up!...

Re: ... but I cannot talk to my friend about it because it will destroy our friendship > Write her a letter - save the face to face

You know how some people have that innate ability to know when something is up? They can read a room or know when a friend is having a bad day. No one has to tell them, they just know - they feel it. And they adjust their behaviors - - they adapt. Moby is not that person. She fixates on 2 things: Her daughter and her phone. Bombs could be going off around her, people could be evacuating and she'll still be sitting there staring at a device, completely unaware that there is life outside of those 2 things. If Moby wants to do "A" but daughter tells her "A" is dumb, she should do "B", Moby doesn't defend her position. She scraps "A" and tells everyone why "B" is the better choice. While I appreciate the suggestion to write her a letter, I believe all that will do is encourage her victimhood. Any form of criticism, even if it's constructive kicks her into defense mode and she immediately insists, "I do everything right, here's what's wrong with you." I don't believe she has the emotional maturity to understand why adults don't enjoy her company. She has one channel and it's on 24/7. She wants to go out with the grown-ups but the minute someone changes her channel, it's like she grabs the remote and steers the conversation back to "My daughter, my S-I-L, diapers, tantrums, blah, blah, blah." And then, "Here's a photo. Oh, here's another photo. Oh, I just got a text from my daughter - she's at xyz store looking at picnic sets." And so on, and so on .............. and so on. I've come to the conclusion that the best way to deal with her is (1) not to initiate anything and (2) if she wants to go out, always make sure others are there so there are diversions. I feel like eventually, she's going to wake up to the reality that other's lives are going on without her ...

Something I forgot to mention ................ Shortly after Moby was widowed, she continuously talked about wanting to take trips .. as if it were her obligation to fulfill her husband's dying wish to go and see the world. For a while, I initiated some trips with her because she kept insisting that was what she wanted to do. Eventually, the "I want to take trips" declaration became, "I can't travel because I have grandchildren." ????????? The word "can't" has become a regular term in her vernacular. She even went as far as to tell me that she hoped to do more travel with her daughter ........ as if her daughter was going to leave her husband with the kids and take off with mom whenever. Okay. And at one point, I approached her about taking a weekend trip to a place she had repeatedly told me she wanted to visit. Her response? "I have no interest in going there." There wasn't any, "I changed my mind", or "I'm busy that weekend" ........... no, it was, "I have no interest". This after years of her insisting the place was on her Bucket List. That was the LAST time I approached her about doing any out-of-town anything. It's almost as if she has no recollection of anything she once believed or stated.

I saw Moby the other night for the first time in probably ...................... 4 months. We went to the theatre. I drove; she sat in the passenger seat and our friend sat in the back. The ride is about 20 minutes and for the entire duration, she unloaded on us with daughter/son-in-law/family stories while constantly scrolling and texting on her phone. Our friend who sat in the back later joked to me that she could barely get a sentence in the whole time. Moby just kept going on and on and on ............ and on. But the fascinating part was, she was texting and scrolling as fast as she was talking. The ride home wasn't any different. The show intermission was a little longer than usual, so Moby seemed delighted to inform us that she texted her daughter to tell her that. WTF?????????????????????? Then she proceeded to continue spewing family saga stuff non-stop. My daughter this, my daughter that ....... on and on and on and on. She has absolutely no self-awareness. No identity. This woman is completely enmeshed in her daughter's being. No matter what we tried to bring up, her daughter did that; her daughter is doing that; her daughter, her daughter, her daughter. It's beyond annoying. And true to her nature, some of the stories she told us on the way in she started to repeat on the ride home. I abruptly stopped her, told her, "yes, you told us blah, blah, blah" and hurried her along a bit. In retrospect, what I should have done is changed the subject, but I tolerated it for the short ride because I have no intention of hanging out with her anymore. I'm out. Life is too short to spend with someone so tone deaf and self-absorbed. She unloads her family drama and mundane details of her daughter's day on us but when we try to tell her something, she's intently scrolling through her phone going, "uh-huh, uh-huh", pretending that she's listening. It's rude, it's obnoxious and I'm done. Our last theatre show is in May and then the season is over. Since it will be her turn to drive, I can only hope she can muster up the strength to stay off her phone for 20 minutes. We'll see. Moby informed us that she may get tickets with her daughter next season and switch nights, to which I told her, "That's great, I completely understand!". It's not definite, but she explained to us that Sundays are bad for her daughter, so they will have to go another night. I'm not going to lie. My friend and I were hoping she wouldn't renew next year or that she would go with her daughter, so this was welcome news. I only wish her the best in life because she's a good person at heart, but I have outgrown this. It's like hanging out with a clueless teenager.

Hey Philameena - see last message on the muck-around thread: https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13997/the-christmas-day-muckaround-thread#jumptobottom

Hi Soulmate .. hope all gets better for you soon! Sending positive vibes.....

Heya! I'm so delighted that you've hit "UGH" aka Repulsion-Revulsion stage! Fffabulous! And then, soon, she'll start shrinking and you'll feel sorry for her (but without the urge to 'save' her). (Think Dorothy's truth/water onto the Wicked Witch Of The West, but not the disintegrating bit, just the shrinking. And then next comes, 'OMG, I WAS TRYING TO BE FRIENDS WITH A MENTAL-HOSPITAL PATIENT!!!' Details-wise, I'm going to re-read and reply some time in the next few days, while the pressure has eased a bit. If nothing crops up - crikey, might even get a proper Me Weekend! I might even get to watch some Telly! Inabit! :)

Nope...didn't get time nor any Telly. Boooo! First post: "You know how some people have that innate ability to know when something is up? They can read a room or know when a friend is having a bad day. No one has to tell them, they just know - they feel it. And they adjust their behaviors - - they adapt." Yup. Have sensitivity and empathy/compassion. "Moby is not that person." HAHA. Well put. "She fixates on 2 things: Her daughter and her phone. Bombs could be going off around her, people could be evacuating and she'll still be sitting there staring at a device, completely unaware that there is life outside of those 2 things." Boooooooooooooooooooooor-RINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNG. "If Moby wants to do "A" but daughter tells her "A" is dumb, she should do "B", Moby doesn't defend her position. She scraps "A" and tells everyone why "B" is the better choice." Yeah. Because then if it goes wrong, it's all daughter's fault. Do you ever witness this, going in the other direction?... is the enmeshment mutual? "While I appreciate the suggestion to write her a letter, I believe all that will do is encourage her victimhood. Any form of criticism, even if it's constructive kicks her into defense mode and she immediately insists, "I do everything right, here's what's wrong with you."" Fairenoughski. "I don't believe she has the emotional maturity to understand why adults don't enjoy her company." Jesus H Christ! "She has one channel and it's on 24/7. She wants to go out with the grown-ups but the minute someone changes her channel, it's like she grabs the remote and steers the conversation back to "My daughter, my S-I-L, diapers, tantrums," (And that's just the adults! :D) ..."blah, blah, blah." And then, "Here's a photo. Oh, here's another photo. Oh, I just got a text from my daughter - she's at xyz store looking at picnic sets." And so on, and so on .............. and so on." What the HECK have you been putting up with all this time?! AND WHY??? Just because you used to feel sorry for her? "I've come to the conclusion that the best way to deal with her is (1) not to initiate anything and (2) if she wants to go out, always make sure others are there so there are diversions. I feel like eventually, she's going to wake up to the reality that other's lives are going on without her..." With your illustration of just how insensitive she is - I seriously doubt there is ANY waking-up this woman would/could experience. Nah. She's stunted. Kid in Adult Suit. Too late/too old for any waking. Why DON'T you just cut her out, ...gradually if you prefer....just stay still and keep quiet, hope she forgets you exist and moves onto another "fan"/brick wall? ___________________________________________________________ (Next post) "Something I forgot to mention ................" (Haha, that's a lot of 'drumroll dots' there?) "Shortly after Moby was widowed," (PMSL, he was bored to death) (oops) (but fun). "she continuously talked about wanting to take trips .. as if it were her obligation to fulfill her husband's dying wish to go and see the world. For a while, I initiated some trips with her because she kept insisting that was what she wanted to do. Eventually, the "I want to take trips" declaration became, "I can't travel because I have grandchildren." ?????????" Typical "benign" Narc. Change their excuses more than a wh*re changes her (OR HIS...let's not be sexist?) knickers. Constant self-contradictions on legs (dicks on legs for-short). They're the "I never said that" and "You must not have been listening properly" brigade.... The Slinkies (you constantly get the urge to push them down the stairs). They're not dangerous, just exasperating and offensive AND YES - BORING. Like biting into a Jam Doughnut which is missing any jam. Dull as dishwater underneath the constant underhanded slippery wriggling/mental gymnastics just to avoid being corrected ("criticised")...AND it's side aim - of making them seem more interesting than they are. No real personality, covered-up with chaotic and unpredictable thinking and behaving. "The word "can't" has become a regular term in her vernacular. She even went as far as to tell me that she hoped to do more travel with her daughter ........ as if her daughter was going to leave her husband with the kids and take off with mom whenever. Okay." Good grief. "And at one point, I approached her about taking a weekend trip to a place she had repeatedly told me she wanted to visit. Her response? "I have no interest in going there." There wasn't any, "I changed my mind", or "I'm busy that weekend" ........... no, it was, "I have no interest". This after years of her insisting the place was on her Bucket List." Yeah. You can TELL they're a Narc if you feel you ought to, or in hindsight, ought to have recorded 'conversations' with them or kept a daily diary so that you could PROVE to them what they said. But...not even THAT works! These bozos will go as far as deny that the Sky is Blue. They'll say ANYTHING if it fits with their urge in that current moment. MIND YOU... she COULD be Histrionic Personality Disordered?...or be NPD co-morbid with Histrionic to whatever degrees each? She sounds like human paint drying. I would DEFINITELY have helped her down the stairs! Okay, only a short little flight, not like "89 steps" haha. Not because I wouldn't WANT to bump her off, but because it's illegal, haha. "That was the LAST time I approached her about doing any out-of-town anything. It's almost as if she has no recollection of anything she once believed or stated." Quite possibly not. Benigns do tend to be clueless about how insane and/or dull and boring they are. Deaf, dumb and blind...and cloth-eared. It's because they're not severe enough to make it worth anyone's while to TELL them so. ______________________________________________ Next post... "I saw Moby the other night for the first time in probably ...................... 4 months. We went to the theatre. I drove; she sat in the passenger seat and our friend sat in the back." How did that happen? Who invited whom? I thought she always sponged off you on such occasions? "The ride is about 20 minutes and for the entire duration, she unloaded on us" Us? How many others went with you? "with daughter/son-in-law/family stories while constantly scrolling and texting on her phone. Our friend who sat in the back later joked to me that she could barely get a sentence in the whole time. Moby just kept going on and on and on ............ and on. But the fascinating part was, she was texting and scrolling as fast as she was talking." (shove) (bumpbumpbumpbump - "ow!") "The ride home wasn't any different. The show intermission was a little longer than usual, so Moby seemed delighted to inform us that she texted her daughter to tell her that. WTF??????????????????????" Don't look at me? She is benign but by GOD, she is SEVERELY benign - never seen any benigns THIS self-absorbed?! Seriously! Why the eff did you invite/accept??? "Then she proceeded to continue spewing family saga stuff non-stop. My daughter this, my daughter that ....... on and on and on and on." (BANG!) "She has absolutely no self-awareness. No identity. This woman is completely enmeshed in her daughter's being. No matter what we tried to bring up, her daughter did that; her daughter is doing that; her daughter, her daughter, her daughter. It's beyond annoying." Yeah, she really REALLY DOESN'T, does she! Looks like it's SHE who is the most enmeshed out of the two of them, too! Would you agree? "And true to her nature, some of the stories she told us on the way in she started to repeat on the ride home." NOOOOOO! Really?! Sheeyat - phone Guinness Book of Records!!! "I abruptly stopped her," PHEW! FINALLY! "told her, "yes, you told us blah, blah, blah" and hurried her along a bit. In retrospect, what I should have done is changed the subject, but I tolerated it for the short ride because I have no intention of hanging out with her anymore. I'm out." Oh, thank eff for that! I can't take any more! Of her, I mean, not you. You'll have to talk about 'life after Moby' and any friendships you start to make. "Life is too short to spend with someone so tone deaf and self-absorbed. She unloads her family drama and mundane details of her daughter's day on us but when we try to tell her something, she's intently scrolling through her phone going, "uh-huh, uh-huh", pretending that she's listening. It's rude, it's obnoxious and I'm done." Obnoxious. To point of Toxic. Yyyyyup. "Our last theatre show is in May and then the season is over. Since it will be her turn to drive, I can only hope she can muster up the strength to stay off her phone for 20 minutes. We'll see." HAH! Alternatively, why don't you just find an excuse to cancel? Or are you planning to ask for the money she owes-owes-owes you? "Moby informed us that she may get tickets with her daughter next season and switch nights, to which I told her, "That's great, I completely understand!"." HAHAHAHAHAHA! So do I. So does everyone - there and on here. Except her. If you think about it, it's like she's in another world entirely. Go check-out my response (on the Xmas muck-about thread) to CN's last post (her thread expired, damnit). She posted a link that is MOST PERTINENT to your Fiend. Death By Inane Drivel On An Endless Loop. She's like something out of a comedy psychological-horror-spoof. Or something from Tim Burton. Water-Torture on legs. Sooooooooooooo incredibly draining. "It's not definite, but she explained to us that Sundays are bad for her daughter," Why? Is it daughter's bubble-bath night? "so they will have to go another night. I'm not going to lie. My friend and I were hoping she wouldn't renew next year or that she would go with her daughter, so this was welcome news." Maybe she's NOT quite as oblivious as she seems, just rude, superior, doesn't care HOW you think/feel...just a wall to talk at, etc. Maybe she can sense the end is nigh...expects you to naturally take that opportunity TO ask her to cough up (or has put on this production before so knows the outcome?), and wants to avoid it/giving you a refund aka closure. ? "I only wish her the best in life because she's a good person at heart," Huh? HOW?! "but I have outgrown this. It's like hanging out with a clueless teenager." I'd rather be with a clueless teenager. At least at their age there's still time to steer them right again/undo or overlay the original, underlying damage. This one's too old, even if Narcs COULD change. Not even tying her to a chair and screaming home truths in her face could. We should hold a funeral for her, really. I'll start..... "Whoops!" (bumpbumpbumpbumpbumpbump)..... Dearly Beloved, we are gathered here today, originally for the Christening of Baby X, but there's been a change of plan, courtesy of Soulmate, so... Un-belieeeeve-able! _____________________________________________ So have you and the other gals had a chance to hold a group debrief about this noxious woman-thing-creature yet? What did they all (finally) say and confess?

Regarding your question, "is the enmeshment mutual"? That is a very good question. The short answer is yes. The long answer is more complicated. Moby allows her daughter to dictate her life, but not vice-versa. Her daughter dictates where they go, what time they leave, etc. and Moby does not have the spine to set boundaries or stand up for herself. To your point, because she allows her daughter to basically boss her around, she plays victim and complains to others about "feeling manipulated". The reason I say it's complicated is because the co-dependence is past the point of ridiculousness. The daughter calls mom around the clock about everything. It ranges from, "I found these cute towels at xyz store" to venting about hubby to "Mom, you should buy us a family lake house" (note: Moby does not have that kind of money). The daughter has been raised and conditioned to believe if I want, mom will buy it for me, so she keeps mom close and is constantly hitting her up with idea after idea of what she needs to spend money on.

A few years ago, she "convinced" Moby to spend $3K on a new bedroom set for herself. The catch was that daughter picked it out and it matches her bedroom set; so one day when Moby is gone, daughter will inherit "matching" furniture. What's most ridiculous about this is Moby didn't need a new bedroom set, nor was she in the market for one and that $3k could have been spent on much more significant things or simply saved for a future need. Every time Moby would join us for an outing, she shared story after story like this and my thoughts were always the same. Her daughter has an insatiable (high end) shopping appetite and cannot stop spending. If she had to exist on she and her husband's incomes alone, they would be in debt up to their eyeballs. What Moby fails to realize is, she's not doing them any favors by constantly offering them money and free childcare. They're not learning any of life's most important lessons. All she's doing is enabling the illusion that they can afford an elevated lifestyle and high-end things when the reality is, they can't. They're not poverty level, but hubby is not super motivated or ambitious - he doesn't have a very high paying job and if they had to pay childcare costs and buy their own furnishings, their credit cards would be maxxed-out. If Moby passed tomorrow, her daughter and son-in-law are not prepared to deal with how to sacrifice and raise 2 kids on their own. They live their lives like single adults with no responsibilities because they know Moby will take the kids whenever they tell her to. The fact that Moby doesn't realize this is mind boggling.

Regarding your comment, "You can TELL they're a Narc if you feel you ought to, or in hindsight, ought to have recorded 'conversations' with them or kept a daily diary so that you could PROVE to them what they said..." My friend who let her go had conversation after conversation with her and she was constantly claiming to him, "You never told me that" or "I never said that" ...... drove him absolutely nuts! She would complain to me about him but the fact of the matter was, she did it to me to. She has zero recollection sometimes of the most simple things. I used to wonder if perhaps it was early onset dementia, but you raise a great point about HPD or some other mental disorder. Not only does she claim to have never said or have no memory of things, but she is notorious for being chronically repetitive. I've never been able to understand why. All of us repeat things and sometimes forget if we told someone something - I think that's normal, but with Moby it's different. She'll repeat the same story over and over and over and over in the same outing = sometimes in the same 30-minute period. As I noted, the last time she did this, we were trapped in a car with her so I abruptly stopped her mid-sentence and informed her she had already told us said story, but I still cannot figure out why she does it. Annoying doesn't begin to describe that behavior.

Regarding the theatre outing, you asked "How did that happen? Who invited whom? I thought she always sponged off you on such occasions?" We have season theatre tickets, so these subscriptions were purchased over a year ago. I have gone with another friend for several years and Moby decided to join us 2 years ago. She doesn't sit with us, but we all ride in together. Tomorrow night is the last show of the season so I will see her tomorrow and if I'm being honest, I am dreading it. My friend is hyper-aware of how much she gets on my nerves but has that superpower where she can just tune it out. If we're lucky, this will be the last time we ever go with Moby because as I mentioned, she informed us her daughter wanted to do it next season and needed to a go a different night. My fingers are crossed that she confirms that tomorrow. Her comment was, "if my daughter decides not to do it, I'll just renew with you guys." Ugh. Here's the thing about my other friend. She's an older woman ... very cool person. She reads, she loves music, fashion, culture, world affairs and she loves to talk about an array of topics. She's interesting. We talk about EVERYTHING. No topic is off limits, but more importantly, we engage in an abundance of topics. When Moby gets in the car with us, Moby talks about what is going on in Moby's bubble. If we try to change the subject, Moby tries to pull the conversation back into her tiny nonsensical orbit of boringness. She has no interest in world affairs or politics; she doesn't care about our lives or our interests. If my friend says, "I woke up with elbow pain", Moby will respond, "My daughter had elbow pain the other day and blah, blah, blah ...." .......... and back we go into her bubble. My daughter, my daughter, my S-I-L, grandson 1, grandson 2, rinse and repeat.

I'm now at a point where while I still don't want to be mean to Moby, I really do want to convey to her - indirectly if that is even possible - that I have more important things to focus on than what her daughter bought at XYZ store and that my social life has expanded now that I've been doing more with a variety of other people. She must realize by now that I don't invite her to things any longer, but the way her mind is wired, it's anyone's guess how she interprets and/or justifies the why. If she ever confronts me about why, then as much as I would love to tell her that her phone behavior is insanely rude and that everyone is sick of the "My daughter" stories and her broken record-itis, "the nice" in me will probably tell her that I know she's busy helping to raise her grandkids and I have presumed she is tied up with that. The last thing I want to do is give her the impression that we should get together. I know I should be more direct but it's hard for me to mean, even to someone who is completely tone deaf and insensitive.

Update: While I survived the car expeditions, Moby most definitely spent the majority of her airtime talking about the usual topics, repeating most her family saga stories at least 3 times ("As the world in my mundane bubble turns"). While she tried to be subtle, she kept referring to an outing we did without her (saw photo online) and seemingly blamed her absence from "our" outing (which I never invited her to) on her daughter's in-laws (they were in town visiting so of course, she was forced to entertain them). I just kept ignoring the victim stuff and told her we had a lot of fun. Old me would have asked, "Why did you get stuck having to do stuff with them?" but I know what the answer would have been. It wasn't her idea ... her daughter and S-I-L were tired, and so on and so on and so on. She told me to let her know if I wanted to go out some time. I don't. Moby still believes that it's my responsibility to initiate everything. If she genuinely wants a night out with the grown-ups, the only thing stopping her from doing that is HER. It's not MY responsibility, I'm not going to apologize for not including her and the only person forcing her to babysit grandchildren and in-laws is HER. I genuinely hope she has a wonderful summer, but I've got other things to focus on.