Feeling like I’m being forced to choose between friendships

Hi, I’m new to this site but I felt like I needed some advice from people with more life experience than me. I am/was in a friend group of six people. Unexpectedly, a member of the group left our shared group chat and unfollowed me on all social media. I am the least closest to this member for reasons I will disclose later on. I reached out to a member in our group and asked if I had done anything to hurt or harm this individual, offered to apologise and wanted to make sure they were okay. Here is the context- The individual I am least closest to does not have a good relationship with my current boyfriend. Approximately two years ago they were in a toxic friendship (from what I know from my boyfriend - it was toxic on both sides). I have talked to my boyfriend about this period, and he fully agrees that what he did was wrong. I too was friends with him during this period and I believe he has grown a lot since this has happened. I have never tried to defend my boyfriend’s actions to my friend. This served as a breaking point for this friend of mine and they no longer feel comfortable around my boyfriend. My presence reminds them of my boyfriend and the friend relaying this information to me also mentioned that I had said something recently that had affected them. (I have no idea what this is. I have never personally attacked them within our friend group and I generally just try and ‘suck up’ to them because I don’t want them to feel uncomfortable around me). This is why they left our group chat and unfollowed me from all social media. I offered to leave our group chat to make this individual feel more comfortable, I said I would just talk to my friends in person rather than online as a bridge. My other friend in this group told me this was not necessary and that it would be okay. However, today I saw the rest of my friend group (without the individual who is avoiding me) whilst with my boyfriend and they all ignored me. They walked past me and did not wave or say hello as they would usually do. My boyfriend tried comforting me by saying it was only because he was there. Here is my dilemma- I love my boyfriend. He is my closest friend and I have known him longer than any of my friends in this group. I am closer to him that any of these friends as well. To prevent this individual from feeling discomfort I do not talk about my relationship with my boyfriend, so my friends are unaware of how important he is to me. With that being said, I feel like I might be forced to choose between my friends and my boyfriend. I want to choose my boyfriend but I’m worried that I’m doing the wrong thing. If I choose my friends, I lose the person that I am closest with but I keep my extended circle. If I choose my boyfriend I lose my friends. I don’t want to hurt anyone in this scenario, I just want everyone to be happy and stay kind to one another.

Hi, You shouldn’t be made to feel uncomfortable and you should be able to talk about your relationship with your friends if want/choose to. I Really like that your thinking of others 🙂 but you shouldn’t have to suffer or loose your friends. Could you try talking to one of them, the one you have a good relationship with and find out what’s going on? Why they didn’t say hello and acknowledge you? Question it/them. It looks like they’re starting to take sides. Part of me is wondering is this friend, who’s not so close, really trying to distance herself from your bf and because your with him you too, for a good reason (because she suffered a lot from the past toxic friendship she with your bf) OR she is spitefully trying to cut you out of the friendship group by turning your friends against you ? Also what has she been telling them? When you come out of a toxic friendship, and you realise how bad it was, how it makes you feel, how low your self esteem is etc, you do everything you can to avoid that person. You seem to know a little about about this from your bf, are you able to share what happened a bit more? Trust you instincts if you feel your bf has changed for the better then ok…but I think it’s worth looking into, for you, with help. Also have you talked to this girl about what happened? If not then remember you only have one side of the story. Hope this helps

Hi, thank you for your help. The friend that I’m close to has advised me not to speak to the individual that I’m not close to. I’ve just been told to stay away from them and give them space and time. I haven’t been told about anything specific this individual has said about me to them. However, in the past I’ve had other friends tell me this individual has made rude comments about me. From what I know of, the toxicity of the friendship mainly lied in that they were both in a horrible mental state which resulted in a lot of miscommunication and frustration with one another. I will definitely try talking to my friends. Thank you!

Hi Jane, Hmmm.... I smell a jealous competitor disguised in a Friend suit.... Bracketed edits are mine (to help me keep up with who's who): "The friend that I’m close to ((My bestish friend - MBF)) has advised me not to speak to the individual that I’m not close to. ((BF's Ex - BFE)) I’ve just been told to stay away from (BFE) and give (her) space and time. I haven’t been told about anything specific (BFE) has said about me to (MBF). However, in the past I’ve had other friends tell me (BFE) has made rude comments about me." NOTED. VERY, VERY NOTED. That's not what genuine friends do, is it! Nothing LIKE what genuine friends do! Frenemy Alert! Jealous and threatened by you, is she? That's the usual reason. "From what I know of, the toxicity of the friendship mainly lied in that they were both in a horrible mental state which resulted in a lot of miscommunication and frustration with one another. I will definitely try talking to my friends." Hmm.... "The friend that I’m close to has advised me not to speak to the individual that I’m not close to." Oh, HAS she, indeed! How interestink. And WHY shouldn't you? That's the usual way it goes so...Hasn't she had time to make anything plausible up, yet? Or is it meant to remain a mystery forevermooooooore! (dann-dann-DAAAN!) PFF! Is she always this much of a drama queen? So... recap... BFE's got something that she knows you need and which, any decent, empathetic person knows, you have a relational-status right to - information - about what you're supposed to have said/done - for at least partial peace-of-mind so the Need To Know doesn't drive you mad ...and yet, she's doing her level best to keep it from you by 'second-hand'/from-a-distance barring you from trying to contact or confront her? Doesn't the Plaintiff WANT an apology and resolution?...her day in Court?....Justice? Wouldn't you? Course you would. So would anyone sane and healthy or with a legitimate - and apparently huge - beef. And if *you'd* been wronged, wouldn't you WANT the person even to KNOW what they did, at LEAST?....especially if, courtesy of this second friend's ("Cerana Bergerac's") willingness to play go-between... Why would Cerana willingly play go-between if she knew not what she was involving herself over? (...interesting...who'd want to volunteer to be in the middle like that...the messenger that could get shot, hence the saying 'don't shoot the messenger'?) ...repeat, Cerana's willing involvement, you, the alleged plaintiff, could avoid having to face any 'awkward' one-to-one/in-person confrontation? What a bonus - surely (if you were that cowardly)? Funny how Cerana herself seems strangely un-intringued to find out what you're accused of? I reckon she does know. So why not at least give you a hint? Sworn to Secrecy by BF's Ex, was she? NONE of that is very grown-up thinking, conduct and behaviour, is it. (Understatement!) And it's NOT THE NORMAL WAY IT WORKS/HOW FRIENDS BEHAVE. Except for 6-year-olds ("Not telling you, nyeeah...come on Stharah, let'sth ignore her"). Jeez. Let's mark their work: It's needlessly dramatic (TICK!), childish (TICK!), over-complicated and chaotic (TICK!), doesn't make sense (TICK!), clearly involves duplicitousness (TICK!) AND(!) features attempted mental torture (TICK!)....of the person who's now dating her ex and has been trying to make it clear she doesn't like it (TICK!). BUT... Question 1: Why, back then, would you have wanted to date one of your close friend's ex-boyfriends? Isn't that BOUND to create awkwardness and bad feeling? I mean, has that been done to you before? Not that that would excuse her behaviour, but I'm trying to climb into her head here. Q2: How old are they both? Are you the same age as them? Q3. So HAVE you tried talking to these friends since your last post here? Me, I doubt it'd work. I definitely smell a rat....either a Smear Campaign or a Disossociating, childishly done, for whatever reason... Let's try to find out: "I am/was in a friend group of six people. Unexpectedly, a member of the group left our shared group chat and unfollowed me on all social media. I am the least closest to this member for reasons I will disclose later on. I reached out to a member in our group and asked if I had done anything to hurt or harm this individual, offered to apologise and wanted to make sure they were okay." 4. Can you remember or consult the chat history to find out and report here what you were chatting about, right before His Ex (we'll call her - including below) flounced-out in front of witnesses? 5. What was the time-lag between the flouncing and the unfollowing of you on all social media? "Here is the context- (His Ex) does not have a good relationship with my current boyfriend." 6. *Current* boyfriend? Why current, and not just, my boyfriend? "Approximately two years ago they were in a toxic friendship (from what I know from my boyfriend - it was toxic on both sides)." 7. Your *boyfriend* said it was toxic on both sides? How come, back then, that didn't give you pause for thought? Toxic Relationship means one or both parties....are Toxic. 8. Did you believe him? More importantly, having sampled him for a fairly decent period - do you, now? "I have talked to my boyfriend about this period, and he fully agrees that what he did was wrong. I too was friends with him during this period and I believe he has grown a lot since this has happened. I have never tried to defend my boyfriend’s actions to my friend." 9. WHAT did he do that was so wrong? I can't comment on the rest, below, yet because I can't judge without knowing the nature of BF's 'crime' as proved a dealbreaker to this Ex and her (er) very non-straightforward, anti-productive (and group-destructive) thinking and methodology. I'll keep it here, cordoned-off for the mo. Over to you (if you're still there?).... __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ "This served as a breaking point for this friend of mine and they no longer feel comfortable around my boyfriend. My presence reminds them of my boyfriend and the friend relaying this information to me also mentioned that I had said something recently that had affected them. (I have no idea what this is. I have never personally attacked them within our friend group and I generally just try and ‘suck up’ to them because I don’t want them to feel uncomfortable around me). This is why they left our group chat and unfollowed me from all social media. I offered to leave our group chat to make this individual feel more comfortable, I said I would just talk to my friends in person rather than online as a bridge. My other friend in this group told me this was not necessary and that it would be okay. However, today I saw the rest of my friend group (without the individual who is avoiding me) whilst with my boyfriend and they all ignored me. They walked past me and did not wave or say hello as they would usually do. My boyfriend tried comforting me by saying it was only because he was there. Here is my dilemma- I love my boyfriend. He is my closest friend and I have known him longer than any of my friends in this group. I am closer to him that any of these friends as well. To prevent this individual from feeling discomfort I do not talk about my relationship with my boyfriend, so my friends are unaware of how important he is to me. With that being said, I feel like I might be forced to choose between my friends and my boyfriend. I want to choose my boyfriend but I’m worried that I’m doing the wrong thing. If I choose my friends, I lose the person that I am closest with but I keep my extended circle. If I choose my boyfriend I lose my friends. I don’t want to hurt anyone in this scenario, I just want everyone to be happy and stay kind to one another." __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

(Sorry, I realise I converted MBF to Cerana Bergerac but - it suited her better)

I understand that you're facing a difficult situation and feeling torn between your friends and your boyfriend. It's never easy when personal relationships become complicated and choices need to be made. Your boyfriend holds a significant place in your life, being your closest friend and someone you've known for a long time. It's natural to have a strong bond with him and to prioritize that relationship. However, it's also important to remember the value of your friendships and the history you share with your friend group. In situations like these, it's essential to have open and honest conversations with all parties involved. While it's natural to desire everyone's happiness and kindness toward one another, it's also crucial to acknowledge that sometimes conflicts arise that require difficult choices to be made. In the end, you must prioritize your own happiness and well-being. Remember that friendships can evolve and change over time, and it's possible to find a balance that allows you to maintain your relationship with your boyfriend while also nurturing your friendships. However, it may require patience, understanding, and compromise from all parties involved. But at the end of the, it's important to surround yourself with people who support and uplift you, and who respect your choices.

Hi, thank you all for your input. I’ll reply to Soulmate’s questions first. 1. Why, back then, would you have wanted to date one of your close friend's ex-boyfriends? Isn't that BOUND to create awkwardness and bad feeling? I mean, has that been done to you before? Not that that would excuse her behaviour, but I'm trying to climb into her head here. I’m sorry if I wasn’t specific in my first post, but these two individuals never dated. As to why I am still close with him, to put it simply, I had a period of low self esteem and mental health and out of everyone I knew, he was the only person who actively tried to keep an active friendship with me. I was relatively close to this ex friend but we grew apart and I found her acting standoffish when I tried to bridge said gap. 2. How old are they both? Are you the same age as them? I’m not comfortable revealing our ages but we are all the same age and in our late teens. Q3. So HAVE you tried talking to these friends since your last post here? I have, they have all acted normal but I tend to stay away whenever the individual who has blocked me (I will refer to them as EF (ex friend) here out) is with them. I have made the personal decision to slowly leave the friend group as I don’t want to be potentially surrounded by people who can’t communicate or confront me. I should’ve mentioned this earlier, but a lot of my group members have previously mentioned their inability to confront people (often resulting in them bottling up their emotions). I don’t want to be friends with people who can never tell me whether I’m hurting them until it’s become too much. 4. Can you remember or consult the chat history to find out and report here what you were chatting about, right before His Ex (we'll call her - including below) flounced-out in front of witnesses? I have. I definitely tried to use specific words that would always affirm EF’s feelings so I would be on her good side. However, there’s a chance I have accidentally referenced or brought up past events (e.g. a period of time in which they were in the toxic friendship with my BF) that may have triggered or brought up some sour memories. It is important to note that I am currently seeking an autism diagnosis, and an inability to effectively read other peoples emotions and social cues is one of my symptoms. Hence, I may have missed it. My friend has not provided any more information as to what topics/words I spoke about to upset EF. 5. What was the time-lag between the flouncing and the unfollowing of you on all social media? I cannot remember definitively but I would guess it was approximately three to four days. 6.Current* boyfriend? Why current, and not just, my boyfriend? In reflection I am unsure why I wrote that myself. 7. Your *boyfriend* said it was toxic on both sides? How come, back then, that didn't give you pause for thought? Toxic Relationship means one or both parties....are Toxic. I have been with the same group with EF for two years. I knew my boyfriend, and was also close to him during this time period, but didn’t get together with him until approximately 6-8 months after their friendship ended. I had assumed that they had both grown, and built better behaviours and boundaries since that time. I was unaware and did not detect EF’s distaste for me until approximately 8 months ago. Again, I did not notice their rocky friendship at all due to my lack in emotional intelligence. (If that is the correct term) 8. Did you believe him? More importantly, having sampled him for a fairly decent period - do you, now? When we first got together, he didn’t speak on the friendship too much since it negatively impacted him. I was initially sceptical and reached out to my close friend (the same one that told me that I had upset EF), to ask if she knew anything and that if the topic ever came up with EF, that she would tell EF that I would never condone anyone hurting them in any shape or form. When this current event happened, I told my boyfriend he needed to tell me everything. I do believe him now, especially since I’ve heard of EF’s behaviours from other people as well. 9. WHAT did he do that was so wrong? (BF refers to my boyfriend) Here is the condensed version of what I know. EF was already in an incredibly vulnerable state. She opened up to my BF a lot. BF would make dark and crude jokes, EF didn’t always like these but wouldn’t tell him straight away (bottling up anger/frustration) EF would make jokes about BF. BF did not like these, and would tell them but they wouldn’t always listen. At the tail end of their friendship, EF exploded on BF with all the things they didn’t like about him. BF got frustrated and did the same back. BF states that he was ‘quite mean’ to them in the tail end of their friendship because he was sick of it and they always made him anxious. General update: I stay well away from EF, have gotten counsel from other friends who know EF (outside of my friend) and they’ve mentioned that she isn’t an angel either. I have decided that regardless of what occurs, I am not going to try and patch up or interact with EF. I refuse to be friends with someone who is aware of their toxic behaviour patterns (bottling up, never communicating issues) and does not change them.

Hey there! That's a tough position to be in and it sounds like a difficult situation! You obviously care a lot about both your friends and your bf, so it's understandable that you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Have you tried talking to your friends in the group to express your feelings? Maybe something went awry before the individual left the chat or it's a misunderstanding. It's important to stay positive and keep your chin up, it'll all get sorted eventually. Good luck!

Hey again, Jane, I don't read ahead, I analyse and reply out-loud as I go, but see final conclusion at the end. "1. Why, back then, would you have wanted to date one of your close friend's ex-boyfriends? Isn't that BOUND to create awkwardness and bad feeling? I mean, has that been done to you before? Not that that would excuse her behaviour, but I'm trying to climb into her head here. "I’m sorry if I wasn’t specific in my first post, but these two individuals never dated." They never dated?! OH. THAT puts a different light on it! You're right - I've just read back. It didn't hit me - and from what I read of her behaviour, she was behaving like a threatened ex. There again, fearing what he might reveal about her could still be her agenda. "As to why I am still close with him, to put it simply, I had a period of low self esteem and mental health and out of everyone I knew, he was the only person who actively tried to keep an active friendship with me." SAY NO MORE! If he has been treating you well, as well, and continues to - he's a keeper. She isn't. She's never left the school playground by the sounds of it, AND was nowhere to be seen when you needed her, same as the others. New Mantra: Friend is a verb before it can be a noun. "I was relatively close to this ex friend but we grew apart and I found her acting standoffish when I tried to bridge said gap." Because you'd got close to him and she doesn't like him/the info he holds? Nothing else fits at this point. "2. How old are they both? Are you the same age as them? I’m not comfortable revealing our ages but we are all the same age and in our late teens." OH. ('Late teens' is fine. You needn't worry, though: there are millions of people with your problem going on, as we speak, *all over the globe; no-one could identify you. I've been on here coming-up 9 years and no-one has a clue who I am (bar the owner, of course). You're free to say what you like. If you regret anything, you just tell me and I'll delete the post and let you re-type it if you want.) (*I wish I could add - Mainly in school playgrounds.) Well, you yourself sound palpably more mature than late teens - hence, YOU know this is a very stupid way for her to be behaving (hence you're here). She on the other hand, sounds like she's years behind you (you'd think she were 12/13....hopefully she'll come out of this typical Teen Narcissistic Phase before she's 20/25), and CLEARLY has never been role-modelled how to have a sensible, post-'clash' pow-wow......OR...her ego can't handle it, whatever... OR...she's deliberately trying to push you out of the group. Thus far along - I vote the latter two, combined, because that way, with you alienated and ostracised from the group, the other members won't ever get to hear (via you) (- EF's perception and fear) that she was - ***like she's being now*** - the problematic element. Has BF made comment over her immaturity? Was she like this with him when he tried to talk and sort-out relational problems with her? Or were they genuinely both too young back then to have known 'how to run an adult-sized bath'? "Q3. So HAVE you tried talking to these friends since your last post here? I have, they have all acted normal but I tend to stay away whenever the individual who has blocked me (I will refer to them as EF (ex friend) here out) is with them. I have made the personal decision to slowly leave the friend group as I don’t want to be potentially surrounded by people who can’t communicate or confront me." Spoken like a true Lady. Aged about 28. :) "I should’ve mentioned this earlier, but a lot of my group members have previously mentioned their inability to confront people (often resulting in them bottling up their emotions). I don’t want to be friends with people who can never tell me whether I’m hurting them until it’s become too much." You don't want to be friends with, comparitively and behaviourally-speaking, schoolkids. Mean girls. They don't mind causing trouble, though, do they. Course not... They have the childish 'skills' for CREATING trouble but not the adult skills for undoing or fixing it. End Of. "4. Can you remember or consult the chat history to find out and report here what you were chatting about, right before His Ex (we'll call her - including below) flounced-out in front of witnesses? I have. I definitely tried to use specific words that would always affirm EF’s feelings so I would be on her good side. However, there’s a chance I have accidentally referenced or brought up past events (e.g. a period of time in which they were in the toxic friendship with my BF) that may have triggered or brought up some sour memories." You DIDN'T!? :O ERMAGHEEEERD - COLL THE P'LICE!!!.........."NEE-NOR-NEE-NOR"...... What seems to be the problem, Madam? / SHE TALKED ABOUT HER PAST! IN FRONT OF ME! WHEN I'VE MADE IT CLEAR SHE'S NOT ALLOWED! HOW DARE SHE!!! / You got us out for that?!...right,.....I'm arresting you for wasting Police time.... Nah. You might sometimes oversight, originally, but going back into it, you'd have spotted it. That's all you could find. (Gosh, aren't YOU a bad little subserviant to 'her Royal Dominance'!) 'You' simply 'gave' her the excuse she'd been waiting for. That was all she could pick on - and inflate ridiculously. Bet she's had to have waited for AGES for you to 'commit' some 'crime'. And still you didn't...hence she pounced on the nearest thing that could be contrived to suit her agenda. End Of. I cannot wait to see below what BF allegedly did. Was it that he ran over her cat and then reversed back over it for good measure? (Dann-dann-DAAAAN!) Maybe not only the friend she couldn't get on with, i.e. your now-BF (I think that's what you mean by current...was just checking) likes and rates you better than her, but, also the other young women...albeit you've found out they lack a backbone (and you can't do much with that, let alone succeed a friendship with it!). "It is important to note that I am currently seeking an autism diagnosis, and an inability to effectively read other peoples emotions and social cues is one of my symptoms." It was a group chat. EVERONE fails to read other people's cues, etc. Text and email are NOTORIOUS for that, age-irrespective. If you ARE Aspie, you can only 'a be touch of' by now, whereby it's an enhancement to your otherwise Neurotypical-ness - e.g. deeply caring, "over"-considrate, very giving and accommodating, very patient and tolerant... (I'm very familiar with ASD, including in rarer females). Plus the fact you've got this far doing just fine (bar some of the company you've lately been keeping). But yes, it would make you more an adult in a kids' body ("born aged 40") if combined with good parenting and your own super-sensitivity + self-awareness + self-regulating (*especially* if not diagnosed early). In other words, you're clever, sensitive and sensible enough to have been able to to listen to feedback and make adjustments where genuinely, truly necessary (and just ignoring the drivel)....sort-of Neurotypified yourself (perfectly common with those not diagnosed in childhood but of sufficiently high iQ). The most effect that could have had when, to me, you think like, not just a functional, but higher-functional (high iQ AND eQ), in terms of said self-enhancement, would be, for example: tenacity...aka holding on to idiots for longer than the average person.. But that's okay. At least when you end a relationship you aren't plagued with doubts that you can be lured back in by, because of having 'waited' until there was none or too little doubt left. The downside is, being incredibly tasty to self-obsessed idiots and, worse, Narcissists (best you read up on NPD friends and lovers, just in case). So... "Hence, I may have missed it." What - with your eagle eyes? No, you didn't. It was the excuse she'd been waiting for: Heeee likes yoooou better than he liked heeeeer, meeeeh-meeeh...so do theeeey (the other group members, she's sensed)... you threaten her status and hold on the others.....so you have to go or Violet-Elizabeth (google) "will sthcweam and sthcweam until she's sthick!" Berbom. This whole scene a very old chestnut amongst stunted, constantly pissed-off kids and said Narcs. (In fact, I'll dig you out a thread link from last year, to a woman twice your age who was subjected to the same attempted (petty) psychological warfare.) "My friend has not provided any more information as to what topics/words I spoke about to upset EF." Hmm... Maybe she's enjoying being needed and important but - her involvement doesn't seem to be solving anything, does it. (Cheers, Chocolate Teapot!) "5. What was the time-lag between the flouncing and the unfollowing of you on all social media? I cannot remember definitively but I would guess it was approximately three to four days." This where you ASD-typically LACKING ego-hunger comes into its own! Ego NOT engaged, like a straight Neurotypical's, like she'd hoped it would, you then FAILED TO CHASE AFTER HER! WHAT AN INSULT! (not) (Excellent, well done.) Yup, it's all fitting perfectly. "6.Current* boyfriend? Why current, and not just, my boyfriend? In reflection I am unsure why I wrote that myself." (As above - N/A.) "7. Your *boyfriend* said it was toxic on both sides? How come, back then, that didn't give you pause for thought? Toxic Relationship means one or both parties....are Toxic. I have been with the same group with EF for two years. I knew my boyfriend, and was also close to him during this time period, but didn’t get together with him until approximately 6-8 months after their friendship ended." Ah-hah. NOTED. perfectly respectful timelag. Conclusion: no leg to stand on (her). Just wants you to do what she wants, like a good little fan. "I had assumed that they had both grown, and built better behaviours and boundaries since that time." There we go - there it is. You grew up (even more) - they didn't yet (or can't?). "I was unaware and did not detect EF’s distaste for me until approximately 8 months ago." I disagree. You were aware that she'd maliciously gossipped about you behind your back, long prior to this. I'd say it's more that you realised she's emotionally delayed or stunted (and mean - for petty reasons - with it). "Again, I did not notice their rocky friendship at all due to my lack in emotional intelligence. (If that is the correct term)" (Yes) There was nothing TO notice. She's behaving like a covert trouble-maker manipulator of the pretend-self-pitying variety (Victim Bully) - and he's a bloke. Yeah, I reckon there's a lot more he could (and eventually will) be telling you about her. Maybe she was waiting to see if you and he broke up, but, by inadvertently, perfectly innocently (via your reference to that past era), reminding her of how long you two have been together now, realised that's not going to happen (because you and he are going great guns - not least because you've given him his faith back in women, I'm betting). "8. Did you believe him? More importantly, having sampled him for a fairly decent period - do you, now? When we first got together, he didn’t speak on the friendship too much since it negatively impacted him." She made him feel like she's now making you feel, I imagine. And then withheld resolution, like she's now doing with you. Meanwhile, painting herself the victim to her 'friends' and he the perpetrator, in the process, even convincing him it was his fault OR that he shared blame. But let's read on and see! " I was initially sceptical and reached out to my close friend (the same one that told me that I had upset EF), to ask if she knew anything and that if the topic ever came up with EF, that she would tell EF that I would never condone anyone hurting them in any shape or form. When this current event happened, I told my boyfriend he needed to tell me everything. I do believe him now, especially since I’ve heard of EF’s behaviours from other people as well." Hah - there we go, then (again)! "9. WHAT did he do that was so wrong? (BF refers to my boyfriend) Here is the condensed version of what I know. EF was already in an incredibly vulnerable state. She opened up to my BF a lot. BF would make dark and crude jokes," He was still a boy back then. That's just typical: feel "awks" and blurt something-anything, preferably funny, to fill the silence and lighten the mood (fed-up of being her 24/7, non-voluntary but free-of-charge 'therapist', I'll bet! I mean, we can see how Me-Me-Me she is, as we speak.) HE DIDN'T MAKE FUN WHENEVER *YOU* OPENED UP, THOUGH, DID HE. DIDN'T MAKE LIGHT OF *YOUR* DEPRESSION. Maybe because your problem was real, easy to understand (and not incredibly petty and repetitive?). "EF didn’t always like these but wouldn’t tell him straight away (bottling up anger/frustration)" Typical for a child lacking self-assertion skills whom prefers to "get you back for that" sooner or later. "EF would make jokes about BF. BF did not like these, and would tell them but they wouldn’t always listen." Oh, I see. Only HE wasn't allowed. Course. That would have been her inappropriately-delayed revenge on him. "At the tail end of their friendship, EF exploded on BF with all the things they didn’t like about him." Once EF had decided he was no longer useful to her and/or an adoring fan, and had collected ample 'ammunition' against him - she let rip and nuclear-bombed their relationship. Still to-script. Yup - immature brats and mature brats (Narcs). "BF got frustrated and did the same back. BF states that he was ‘quite mean’ to them in the tail end of their friendship because he was sick of it and they always made him anxious." Anxious? Right, that settles it. She'd been using narcissistic manipulation including gaslighting on him. Tell him from me: it's all-too-common for the victim (or in his case - failed target-slave :)) of a Schoolyard Mean Girl/Narc - just, any psychological bully - You and your boyfriend make VERY BAD SLAVES, DEAR-DEAR...! Hahah. Excellent. It's because you're too cool for school. ;) "General update: I stay well away from EF, have gotten counsel from other friends who know EF (outside of my friend) and they’ve mentioned that she isn’t an angel either." I know, haha. She's Violet-Elizabeth (only shouty in private, quiet, "harmless" and manipulative (*including emotional blackmail) in public - if you ever read "Just William?" - he's her victim.) (*Chuck him or you're out!) Your (er) Nearly Best Friend (Cerana), btw, sounds as if she thinks she's EF's mother and just humouring her. What an Enabler. What an on-eggshells walker. Good luck to her (with you no longer around, EF will turn her compulsive crosshairs onto one of them - starting with the next-nicest/most obseqious....EF will have to have someone to 'shoot at', whether for its own end or because she's 'spotted' another incoming insult'.) For two years, you'd (her perception) pandered to her with your mouth. Now had come the time to see if she could control you to the degree where you would 'prove' your fan-hood with your feet (dump BF)'. Yup, he knows too much. Yup, dump Violet (& The Choccie Teapots). "I have decided that regardless of what occurs, I am not going to try and patch up or interact with EF. I refuse to be friends with someone who is aware of their toxic behaviour patterns (bottling up, never communicating issues) and does not change them." Ignore above advice, PMSL - you're way ahead of me! You can get sentimentally attached, granted, but you process at lightning speed as well as see through BS - in fact, just the smell of BS makes you detach really quickly. (Don't suppose you'd like to reply to some threads? You've got it, gal. It's too late for a diagnosis to change anything, anyway, and - why change when you're already the cool kid?! :))

Sorry - the end of my sentance somehow disappeared (it's happened before, actually...hmm...). Let me finish it: Tell BF from me: it's all-too-common for the victim (or in his case - failed target-slave :)) of a Schoolyard Mean Girl/Narc - just, any psychological bully who's determined to be and be seen as The Big I Am - to be pushed so far beyond their usually good patience and self-control, and lash-out back. And then, in hindsight, feel ashamed. When in reality, they had no control. Not one iota. Because that level of reaction is what they'll keep needling and pushing for - until you do - because to them, it's safer to negatively manipulate an OW! reading that, to them, means, he's still hooked by me, than just ask nicely (argh - the dreaded vulnerability and obsequeiousness!!!). I repeat: he lashed-out *BACK*. He wouldn't normally behave like that. No victim, before that point, found they ever needed to. HENCE ARE SHOCKED AT THEMSELVES. (The manipulative Violet-Elizabeths and Narcs aren't. Ever.) (Good, I'm glad he did!)

PS: You and your sweetie of a boyfriend should now start making COUPLES friends, now, anyway. :)

PPS: "This where you ASD-typically LACKING ego-hunger comes into its own! Ego NOT engaged, like a straight Neurotypical's, like she'd hoped it would, you then FAILED TO CHASE AFTER HER! WHAT AN INSULT! (not) (Excellent, well done.)" What I mean is: You merely enquired politely, concernedly but reasonably, like Spock. She was after Kirk like panic and desperation not to lose Wonderful Her (they're nothing if not self-delusional (with the vital help of others: yes, you're great (yawn)). ***You kept your cool.*** Baaaaad slave, hahahah. High Five. You must make a gorgeous couple.

PPPPS: (sorry!) (should have re-read before posting...'a stitch in-time saves nine' and all that) ""I had assumed that they had both grown, and built better behaviours and boundaries since that time." There we go - there it is. You grew up (even more) - they didn't yet (or can't?)." When you said 'they', I took it that you were referring to EF and Cerana Bergerac. So my answer should have been: He did - she didn't. Again, her adult-mimicked ability to *create* trouble and drama, lacks the, even *young adult* ability to solve it - or worse, lacks the ability to *dislike* the discord and drama. Or worse than that, it's just a smokescreen so that the others will blame "whatever it was you did" and not look behind said smoke and dust, to how beeping weird, mean, and childish her hidden agenda is (google NPD Smoke & Mirrors). She's very delayed or permanently stuck (stunted) inside the 'Natural Narcissistic Tunnel' between Kiddihood and Adulthood. T he next few years will tell. But she's not anywhere in your league, not least your 'straight-seeing' maturity. Nor BF's. Ignore her now. Do "a Nigella" (aka Grey Rock). Don't bring her up to Cerana - and if C does, just shrug and change the subject (maybe add, ...Pfff...just......baffling...and REALLY childish...ANYWAY!...). EF is (one of her aims) trying to make you snap and lose your ladylike/adult decorum, to make you look like the melodramatic or crazy one OR *as equally* bad as her (!! - ref convincing BF to take half-blame), to pull you down to her level or lower...so that she won't look so incredibly childishly Macahievelli and pettily vindictive in comparison. If she is permanently stuck already, she's just a typical Classic aka Benign (- hah!) Narc. Put simply: you and she are in a clothes' outlet's communal changing room, stood in your bras and knickers in front of the large, communal mirror. Because it's time to buy adult-sized clothing now. She's obese - and flat-chested - looks like a kid (gender non-obvious). You're slim and shapely, like a young woman. The other group members are in there with you, busy chatting, but might turn and spot the differences at any moment. Furthermore, God Forbid if BF comes and joins you, stands the other side of her, showing up just how SHORT she is, too!...which is something that could well happen. EXPOSURE LOOMS THREATENINGLY (dann-dann-daaan)!!! And they can't have that. All they have is their false act and their mouths. You (and thereby BF) have to go. It's HER club, not yours, "mleugh!". (Good grief, indeed.) It's not a club, it's a little cult. Or it will be if Violet gets her way. Anyhoo,...off to find that thread I mentioned...

https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13219/Difficulty-with-adult-friendships You'll enjoy that :)

(Let me know your thoughts.)

Thank you SO much for all your advice and input Soulmate! I truly appreciate it. I had a read of the thread you attached, and oh my gosh?! It is astounding to hear that some people never grow up and will always crave drama. Absolutely ridiculous. I truly hope OP sorted it all out and was able to get away from that absolute madness.

"It is astounding to hear that some people never grow up and will always crave drama. Absolutely ridiculous." Isn't it. They're like a social cancer. But anyone is allowed to have a child, despite it's too easy to break and malprogramme such a fragile, sponge-like mind if it's born into the wrong hands. (Don't get me started.) "I truly hope OP sorted it all out and was able to get away from that absolute madness." Yes, she said they were moving back to Yorkshire, where her husband hailed from. Bit disappointing she didn't get to say goodbye (maybe they suddenly got an early offer on their house, meaning, all systems go?), but at least it was a happy ending, that's the main thing. I take it you realise I'm right about it being time for you & BF to acknowledge your 'new status' as one of a firm, now-adult couple and making friends with other couples? I mean - there is NO WAY you're late teens - except on-paper! So you couldn't/wouldn't be getting on as well as you do with BF if he weren't moreover as advanced as you in that respect. Reckon you could bond even with older couples. Time to start frequenting the one bar/pub or join a tennis club or whatever you crazy young adults are into these days. "Gatherings", mostly, still?

PS: Just to warn you: what with your decision to remove yourself from that whole, frankly dysfunctional, group - it will at whatever point be sensed and might well be acted on. Google "Hoovering". Even crazier than it sounds, if their ploy is to make you feel rejected and ostracised, but you do and say nothing for too long, EF will see it that you've all that time been rejecting HER. Ego can reject, ego can't BE rejected and recover from it because it represents a loss of control over someone (this case, you). Action to take it back, has to be taken. Unlike us Healthy'uns, they have no other way to mentally self-soothe (not that they deserve it considering it's all their own handiwork (mess). They switch back to nice or even nicer; lure you back; wait until you feel safe; then - BAM! Dump YOU, in unreasonably nasty ways. So they not only steal the Victim Cloak but also the Dumper's Cloak (both of which are YOUR right, thereby transgressing Justice all over again). ...just misappropriate and steal whatever of your emotional wealth and assets, rights, privileges, wellbeing, sense of safety in the world,... full-stop.

That’s a good point. I work with a lot of them and I’ll be quitting my job at the end of the year so my current plan is to just stay friendly but slowly drift away so when I quit and we stop talking it seems natural rather than forced.

Work with a lot of them? Ugh! Christ. Poor you. Oh, well, in that case, I award you one of my Gold Stars to your forehead and officially(ish) welcome you to SuperNova Empath world!....."Thlup!" :) That's for having AMAZING bravery! I mean - Ns in your social group is bad enough, but - at work, too?! Whooooooarrrrr - show us yer muscles! :D Will you be able to avoid seeing or at least speaking to them? And that this happened, is usually a sign you'd really started to notice the rate at which you were out-growing them. The difference with a normal-healthy, adult friendship, is that usually contact becomes less regular before imperceptibly fading-out or, if one or other's met a deal-breaker whereby splitting up is the only remaining, self-respectable option, it's met with a sad but sensible and respectful, mutual agreement to part ways or just keep in touch from time-to-time. Or even a long Time-Out with a reasonable deadline by which to decide one way or the other whether to try again or not. Much the same as for a romantic relationship, really, but a Lite version sans the physical side (obvs). Anyway, I almost forgot to give you my analysis of this: "I offered to leave our group chat to make this individual feel more comfortable, I said I would just talk to my friends in person rather than online as a bridge. My other friend in this group told me this was not necessary and that it would be okay. However, today I saw the rest of my friend group (without the individual who is avoiding me) whilst with my boyfriend and they all ignored me. They walked past me and did not wave or say hello as they would usually do. My boyfriend tried comforting me by saying it was only because he was there." So Cerana says - coming off the group chat isn't necessary, but then all the others in the group then prove that, OH YES IT IS. This is what people tend do in that situation, where their issue is solely with the BF, not you (other than the fact you're with him so are situationally 'not their favourite person'...Particularly when it's 4 of them 'against' 2 of you, as makes them BOLD: They'd probably saunter past you both, busy chatting amongst themselves (usually over-doing the hand gesturing if they feel like 'rubbing it in') before pausing the conversation (but not the walking) to fleetingly notice you, give a quick (but maybe a tad weak) nod or smile and, without stopping, say a rather cool or casual, non friendship-appropriate or -reflective - Oh, hi. Or even - Oh, hi, (your name)'....but fail to say a thing to BF as they instantly resume their conversation as they walk ahead of you both or in another direction. Duringtime, they might briefly look in his general direction or catch his eye - but say nothing. Or, boldness depending, any of them might even over-do their greeting to you, make it sound a bit too syrupy....to drive their point home. BF, then, is under no illusions that it's only he whom they have a problem with and are snubbing. Meanwhile, you, likewise, are under no illusion that their duped, gullible, manipulable - Flying Monkey selves, disapprove of you being with him, of the relationship. (Picturing it?) EF has already managed them to convince them of some crime against her on your part. Or maybe she has a hold on each of them (some information they wouldn't want made public - who knows?). In short: they are all far too emotionally stupid and illogical/'against the grain' for you. Should still be in the school playground...where we could more easily shoot them with our sniper rifles (we wish, LOL...well, you probably don't, but if this is your very first, proper encounter - give it time LOL). "Here is my dilemma- I love my boyfriend." And it shows. :) "He is my closest friend" And it shows. :) "and I have known him longer than any of my friends in this group. I am closer to him that any of these friends as well." Probably including because you have today's proof for knowing - which means confirmation and validation for what you 'just knew' from the start - that he wasn't the problematic element. Are you SURE-sure-sure, however, that EF didn't and doesn't still, want him for herself and/or "as a bf" her private, emotional punching-bag)? ...Or whether, maybe, when you and he got it together after 8 months - you were actually interrupting and curtailing her (a typical NPD ploy) attempt to torture him in order to break him into submission (mistress-slave is all they want, can't do equality)...because he'd been standing up for himself against her too well so needed more of his confidence - which standing-up for oneself demands - shredded? EF's over-dramatic production seems a bit too 'structured' in how she's behaving, to merely be delayed in the Terrible Teens narcisstic phase/tunnel. It fits the typical ploy. Everything about her follows the typical Malignant Narcissist's dance. Methinks you inadvertently broke into his dungeon and rescued him. Fair comment? If so - no wonder EF is behaving as if she wants to 'punish' you while fiercely protecting her delusion and fake persona (desirable), and reputation. Fits, right? I'll find you a link in case not... And if it does, ask and I'I'll give you tips on how to PREVENT any of those (ugh) colleagues (Google "Narcissist's Flying Monkeys") from being able to give you any grief as you cleverly, sensibly, dignifiedly shuffle away, imperceptibly, inch-by-inch backwards out of the 'room' ("Elvis has left the building!" lol) However...I haven't actually finally concluded yet because - Did you consider that Cerana - whom strangely *doesn't* want you to just approach EF and sort it out asap like people normally do, for the sake of group-harmony (and who, let's not forget, is part of the reason you've not chased EF) - seems to match the so-called woman-friend on the above thread who had the temerity to keep acting syrupy, including calling the OP "chicky", whilst doing NOTHING WHAT SO EVER to actually 'lift a finger' over her 'little Chicky'? Narcissists (NPDs) want to be your everything while you're their nothing. They're the celebrity, you're the audience/fan. As for BF: a normal, healthy-minded, mature male WILL want to take however-much of the blame - because his pride demands it and his ego fears having to face the fact that a man can be "put in the feminine (victim) position" just as easily as a woman (there's literally only one difference between male and female malignant Narcs), meaning, gets a rude awakening over the fact he does not have even the normal amount of self-control that he'd been raised to expect. An NPD (Covert) would rather stick needles in his eyes than accept blame or (Covert-Vulnerable) more than half-blame. If you accept half-blame, that, to a Narc, cancels-out their interpersonal crime because to them, there is no blame without majority blame, which, 50/50, means they're not to blame (uh-huh, you've been hanging-out with secret crazies). If Cerana's passively refusing to actually help you, while presenting as your close friend (and preventer-come-protector), then....actions, this case LACK OF, speak far louder, don't they? Could be? This Cerena is behaving very suspiciously and situationally-abnormally, to me, that's for damn sure. Her possible motive could be to isolate you all to herself? Or because she plans to dupe her 'friends' and you know too much truth about her or her past? Because she enjoys controlling a 'herd' ("Sociopathic Harem/Fan-Club/Flying Monkeys"), and you (espec. if you are a self-Neurotypifed aka HF Aspie) aren't controllable or dupable? Furthermore, aided by sensing you were in a group of stupid children and should move on without them at some point, then, once you learned of your job-move, you would probably, no matter how seemingly subtly, have been giving off a "De-Mob Happiness" vibe. This translates to - a whiff of You Choosing Someone Else Over Her/Them, which their predator senses pick-up on and equals, Rejection (one of a Narc's worst 'fears', highly injurious to a puny but over-swollen ego) as well as Abandonment (ditto). Then we add the, You're Soon Going To Know Too Much - and, ref. C., possibly also You Know Me Too Well For Me To Have The Freedom to Dupe This Group?). Could be that EF wanted you to be publicly seen to Choose Her over BF (which would be all the verification her public would need), and that Cerana is using this to give EF time to demonize you to the others. With you away, C will then step up as leader and start torturing EF (you betcha...EF will have been irritating the heck out of her...Spaths look down on Narcs, Psychos look down on Spaths...they're constantly over-competive, extremely loony-style heirarchal and have to be The Superior One). What do you think of my suspicion if you re-examine past events under that light? I don't know for-sure, though. I just don't feel this is over yet...'Summat in me water...". Do you? Notwithstanding, you're right to try shuffling away, including at work. I mean, this is not a friendship group, mate, it's a Coven (not enough members for a cult, lol). Well, I've sampled you and - why WOULDN'T they be jealous of you and threatened of you, considering, by the sounds of it, all of them would look stunted compared to you in that mental communal changing-room? If you "make" them feel less than superior and dominant over you, especially if they did pick up on the De-Mob vibe, you're going to get 'punished'. "To prevent this individual from feeling discomfort I do not talk about my relationship with my boyfriend, so my friends are unaware of how important he is to me." How horrid to have to constantly do that. Won't it be such a relief to have new friends and that perfect right and freedom? "With that being said, I feel like I might be forced to choose between my friends and my boyfriend. I want to choose my boyfriend but I’m worried that I’m doing the wrong thing. If I choose my friends, I lose the person that I am closest with but I keep my extended circle. If I choose my boyfriend I lose my friends. I don’t want to hurt anyone in this scenario, I just want everyone to be happy and stay kind to one another." They're not behaving anything like friends so I would take BF and make new friends, whether singletons or couples (both preferably). You're in a very fortunate position, still getting to have him and his company while you're in that wee transition. And don't forget you'll no doubt make new friends at or through your new job. With friends like that, who needs enemies. I'd want a salary. And an expenses account. Oh, and a car. And a rifle, of course, LOL. PS: Your head's so well screwed on - if you have time, do you fancy attempting to answer some threads?

PS: "Are you SURE-sure-sure, however, that EF didn't and doesn't still, want him for herself and/or "as a bf" her private, emotional punching-bag)? ...Or whether, maybe, when you and he got it together after 8 months - you were actually interrupting and curtailing her (a typical NPD ploy) attempt to torture him in order to break him into submission " Google "Narcissist Silent Treatment".

Thank you once again for your input Soulmate. As I was reading this, I realised that there were some details I hadn’t mentioned prior, so I thought I’d put them in here. C or Cerena as you call them, has not mentioned anything since. I can’t recall if I mentioned it in my first entry, but when I initially asked her about EF, they told me to give EF time and space. I believe it has almost been a month, and I have not received any further instruction. I forgot to mention earlier. But I am in a larger group chat with my friend group and some other mutual friends. When the first unravelled I decided to stay silent due to worrying about upsetting EF. A couple of days ago, I decided that I didn’t really care any longer since I wasn’t talking about my boyfriend here either so I just acted as usual (complimenting my friends when they’d send pictures mostly). EF does not speak in this group chat, I was on it this morning and EF has completely blocked me on this social media platform and left the group chat. C has not said anything to me about this yet. I literally don’t know what they ever expected me to do in the first place, if me existing is triggering her. I still want to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she’s just going through a bad mental health period rather than turning everyone against me because I don’t really see that happening. If it does I have a strong enough support system that I’ll get through it A-OK.

Yes, absolutely - do put them here. Having emotionally disconnected however-much, as your mind "de-spaghettifies", you WILL start to get ideas and memories popping into your mind; it's a standard part of the post-Fauxlationship recovery path. The more time passes, the more dots your mind will join, until you have a clear, end picture. Put these thoughts here and, if ever you feel yourself weakening - or them trying to wheedle round you (always-always done the wrong/unhealthy way, including with Word Salad) - you can re-read your posts on here to give your determination not to 'cave', an extra turbo-boost. I call it writing out their Rap Sheet and - it works like a dream. "C or Cerena as you call them, has not mentioned anything since." Yep, there we go. Curiouser and curiouser, said Alice... Again, doesn't she WANT the complete group back together? Seemingly not. (Are they all scared of EF or something? Is she particularly mouthy?...agressive?....too tricky to converse with and/or to make see sense?) The group was all 6 of you. Now, if there's only five, the pack dynamic and heirachy will have been subconsciously changing (think Musical Chairs). It won't feel the same. Doesn't Cerana miss the old group? Seemingly not. (See what I mean? Brave and willing to be involved enough to intercept yet not enough to sort it out? Mm-hmmm....) "I can’t recall if I mentioned it in my first entry," Yes, you did. "but when I initially asked her about EF, they told me to give EF time and space. I believe it has almost been a month, and I have not received any further instruction." Yes, because it's a game of (NPD) Chicken. You're supposed to crack first and BEG to be let back in the group. (Remember, they are better than anyone at majorly self-deluding, one major one of which is that they're FAB! and beyond criticism and reproach, and that you must be suffering by now. - because they're FAB!) (I know. I KNOW. Tell me about it!) "I forgot to mention earlier. But I am in a larger group chat with my friend group and some other mutual friends." Oh, so they're part of a larger group! Well, then - don't you go anywhere! BUT...since she/they right now are subjecting you to said game of Chicken, my advice is either to stay off the larger group (until you've 'won' Chicken aka Grey Rock) or to contact your favourite people among the others - individually - telling them just matter-of-factly and briefly that you don't feel comortable with that 5 on there (because they're being unfriendly towards you AND refusing to tell you why - because what you've been told doesn't even match what happened (you're allowed to reference the past fgs!)) and would they mind the two of you emailing privately for a while until whatever the problem is gets sorted? "When the first unravelled I decided to stay silent due to worrying about upsetting EF." Yes, and I agree with Lily that this amount of considerateness and empathy makes you a really good friend (that she doesn't deserve, but that another huge accommodator would)." "A couple of days ago, I decided that I didn’t really care any longer since I wasn’t talking about my boyfriend here either so I just acted as usual (complimenting my friends when they’d send pictures mostly)." Oh, well, you beat my advice to it so - good instincts, well done! Excellent Modus Operandum, as well ("nothing to see here, biz as usual, tra-la-laaaa") - aka, "Grey Rock". BIG THUMBS-UP. (You see? - you're GOOD at this! Plugged "too" hard into reality, eh.) "EF does not speak in this group chat, I was on it this morning and EF has completely blocked me on this social media platform and left the group chat." (Ignore above advice re individual contact, LOL. Never mind - at least it shows how 'on the correct page you are') She's left the entire group chat???? ........What's that I smell? ...................................... oh wait - I know - (fake) BURNING MARTYR! Covert Vulnerable it is! That's EF identified (*dusts hands*). :) "C has not said anything to me about this yet." AND CURIOUSER, said Alice! Here we go: Eyes back on Cerana... "I literally don’t know what they ever expected me to do in the first place, if me existing is triggering her." HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! GOOD ONE!!! Haha - yeah, how very DARE you! :D (Still laughing...) Here - send her an email and ask her to direct her giant but top-secret complaints against you to your parents and grandparents, LOL. (No, don't, LOL...just fantasising on your behalf. You should try it, it's great fun and very, VERY therapeutic! For starters, try giving EF and C your own comedy nicknames - to suit the situation as well as their now-leaking, true characters, obviously.) "I still want to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she’s just going through a bad mental health period rather than turning everyone against me because I don’t really see that happening. If it does I have a strong enough support system that I’ll get through it A-OK."" Now I'm laughing my face off again because my only answer to that whole paragraph has to be - WHICH ONE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? :D Anyway (*serious cap back on*). Presuming you mean C and not EF: Proceed if you need (more clues) to (cough) but With Caution. And Suspicion. And Skepticism. And Cynicism. And a whole bag of "Out Narcing The Narc" tricks at the ready, just in case (google it). Brilliant. High Five. :)

PS: When you get a mo, please can you answer my other questions, like, do you agree you might have inadvertently rescued BF from EF's torture chamber (called Narc Silent Treatment/Narc Withdrawal)?

Or tell me if you'd rather I choose appropriate links for you?

Hi Soulmate, yes I can answer some of your previous questions. (Do let me know if I’ve missed anything) Could be that EF wanted you to be publicly seen to Choose Her over BF I’m unsure if EF truly wants me to choose her over BF. I rarely spoke to her outside of the group chat in the first place so I haven’t pieced her character together. I guess there’s a chance that she might have been annoyed at me for continuing to speak to him in the past after their disagreement though, but at the same time, in the past C has told me that EF wouldn’t talk about what happened between her and my BF around me in case it would ‘upset me’ since I was close to him (I can’t find this in writing though this is solely based on my memory. However, I do know that she wasn’t comfortable being around me (or even a little apprehensive) during this time since I recall feeling really awkward around her. do you agree you might have inadvertently rescued BF from EF's torture chamber? I have 0 clue. When I got together with my BF his attitude toward the whole friendship was just ‘I don’t want to talk about it because I don’t want to relive it’. That being said, I had a good relationship with EF until about 3 months after their friendship ended, then we drifted apart. At this time, I spent time with BF’s circle of friends because we had other mutual friends. I don’t know exactly when EF started to not like me. WHICH ONE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? :D Forgive me if I seem inconsistent, but in my last paragraph I was talking about EF. I truly don’t want to believe that she has such intentions because when we were close she was incredibly sweet. I understand that there is a chance I may have been blindsided though. I forgot to mention earlier, but EF allegedly freezes when she sees my BF. Regarding responding to posts - I’ll give it a go if I feel I can contribute but I tend to doubt my ability in giving advice because of my age and lack of life experience :).

"I guess there’s a chance that she might have been annoyed at me for continuing to speak to him in the past after their disagreement though, but at the same time, in the past C has told me that EF wouldn’t talk about what happened between her and my BF around me in case it would ‘upset me’ since I was close to him (I can’t find this in writing though this is solely based on my memory." More like, because you'd probe and get enough out of her to gain a better idea of what REALLY happened, that she behaved emotionally-abusively towards him, albeit subtly, like the Covert-Vulnerable she is, (and again, like we see her doing right now to you). "However, I do know that she wasn’t comfortable being around me (or even a little apprehensive) during this time since I recall feeling really awkward around her." Out of interest, in which ways did she show or signify (or vocalise) that she wasn't comfortable? Obviously, we now KNOW why: because you could by then, each time, have enough evidence (jigsaw pieces) from BF with which to expose her as a Fiend, not Friend, to anyone she feels she has, or wants, power and control over. All I can say, is that she clearly knows BF has a LOT of dirt on her. (Feeling the 'clicking' into place now?) "do you agree you might have inadvertently rescued BF from EF's torture chamber? I have 0 clue." I think so. (You need to look up "NPD Sweet & Mean Cycle", "NPD Silent Treatment", and "NPD Withdrawal". It'll give you the "dark light" torch and vocabulary to see in hindsight the parallels and pop more jigsaw pieces into your/bf's puzzle.) "When I got together with my BF his attitude toward the whole friendship was just ‘I don’t want to talk about it because I don’t want to relive it’." Spoken like a true victim of a more-often-than-not, on-the-whole, emotionally-abusive Narcissist. (So that's that suspicion verified.) He might have yelled BACK at her or even said horrid things BACK. But I'd bet money he never initiated any of it and/or whatever he did do, it's because he failed to be telepathic and pre-emptive. Again, like we presently *still* see her being towards you. Because neither did you throw any first punch (which is why you could neither know nor work-out what you'd 'done'). You were just being You and minding your own business (which is usually what ALL well-intentioned victims were doing so, again, this still follows the Narc script ("Narc Playbook")) regarding interpersonal relationships.) "That being said, I had a good relationship with EF until about 3 months after their friendship ended, then we drifted apart. At this time, I spent time with BF’s circle of friends because we had other mutual friends." Stop Press! Found it!... (Preambmle: Remember, Narcs don't want love and equality, they want power and control over you/a select few/everyone (Master-Slave(s)).: The previous seemingly good r’ship was because (1) as you said yourself, you'd 'sucked up to them' (so must have subconsciously sensed what they were and wanted, whereby, your intelligent, pre-emptive choice of response was (fake) Fawning). And, (2) before then, had never 'done' anything 'to piss her off' (- it doesn't tend to take much, nor tends to be anything that ordinarily would/could upset any Normal-Healthy; alternatively, they can just pick on something-anything...or, with nothing TO pick on, make it up entirely...whatever to pose as a cover-story for their real aim). If 'you' 'piss them off', they Split (google "Narcissistic Splitting"). You go from a*se-licked "Angel" to "the Devil Incarnate" and now NOTHING good and right that you'd ever done during the entire 'friendship' (as would normally build, maintain and nurture a *loyal* friendship with another Normal-Healthy), is EXPOSED as having counted for nothing. All previous good, liquid credit that you naturally expected to have steadily over time earnt and amassed inside her 'love bucket' is suddenly proven to have - poof! - GONE...never happened. It’s because *they all have holes in their buckets*, of whatever size, meaning, your good friending never collected, ergo, only ever lasted very fleetingly, if that. And it's always Narcs that present you with the entirely unfair, unjust, non-rightful, selfish and cruel i.e. abusive, (google "Sophie's Choice" and see the film if you haven't!). *They* don't have Loyalty but this and all other rules are different form them-them-them, meaning, you must still have truckloads for *them* (Servant-Master...servant serves, not receives). For this reason...this "crime" - you must either be forcibly re-moulded into what they want you to be or revert to being (using the same tactics as torturing terrorist interrogators, incl. disorientation, destablization, isolation, Gaslighting, 'test-run' Discarding to see if you come back begging and kow-towing, forevermore "Walking on Eggshells")...you name it), saying only what they want you to say and behaving like an you idolize them. Otherwise, you get Discarded..Group Ostracised , this time for-real, as they replace you, i.e. plonk another or new group member into your vacated role....which I and other past victims-battlers-survivors, whether Lay or Expert, refer to as Set Free/Given a hugely lucky break/Dodged a Bigger Bullet.) Saying that – not even their having Discarded you for-real actually means anything. If in the future they lack a source of Supply, they might well contact you out-of-the-Blue, all lovely and friendly again, like nothing ever happened (grr!). Narc EF's perception: You chose him over her, how VERY dare you (when she's supposed to be the better, more awe-inspiring person than BF; his superior/the sole star of the fauxlationship). AND (says the script, as taliies with our evidence) you interfered with her long - AND indeterminate (as all Narc Silent Treatments/Withdrawal periods are) - slow punishment schedule for him (- it was BOTH.) And you're no doubt too intelligent and level-headed for her to be able to compete with. Plus, no doubt, because you also have the courage and straightforwardness (healthy-mindedness) to speak the truth. You were a very convincing sucker-up-er yet turned out to be a very BAAAAAD Fan and Flying Monkey (because your Actions/Lack Of said otherwise, haha, ike an Undercover Cop). You entered her cage, this time with a different mindset (got closer to her, via your fawning) to experience her for yourself. And so did BF rescue you right back! Because you mightn’t have been so ready to spot what you saw, had he not bravely confided in you (i.e. subconsciously tried to warn you). And when someone confiding in you is misguidedly (but in their case, what they understand as, heroically) taking however-much blame, they end up sounding even more innocent - don't you find, if you think back on it? Well done x 2: neither of you froze, both of you banded-up then fought back. Even without saying a word to one another. Telepathically, basically: Inner Animal to Inner Animal. A meeting of Healthy wavelengths equalling An Unspoken Understanding. (Own theory: Telepathy, for too long was all we had before speech evolved, in emergency situations where gestures were inadequate (waving arms and pointing from afar to signify, "Look out for that Sabre-Toothed Ti-.....oh, sh*t, too late"). Telepathically i.e. super-sensitively. (Otherwise - what would YOU call it??) Summed-up in indisputable actions: Your BF, and only your BF, rescued you (when you were down). He could tell that, out of huge appreciation, you wanted to help him back. So he (bit-by-careful-bit) tooled you up, whereupon, you rescued your BF right back - by getting closer to her/them and/or just daring to be more yourself, in order to not just see, but experience both sides, like a court judge, in order to be the one to give him back his pride via sense of inarguable vindication (equals, faster recovery journey). I'd encourage BF to surf the web about Covert-Vulnerable Narc female 'friends'. He has got SO MUCH dirt on her – and has been carrying SO MUCH needless guilt (google "Narcissistic Victim F.O.G.") - and doesn't even know it! Knowledge Is Power. ERGO, knowledge can get his stolen power BACK. Without even having to have another thing to do with her! :) Win/Win. DO see Lily31's thread (Parents Split Up), where she, her family and rellies, all dealt like a crowd of warrior -style ‘Torville & Deans’ with a real-live, Low-Functioning, i.e. crass, callous, bulshy, intimidating whilst cunning and devious (sterophonically-manipulative - Overtness to distract from otherwise too-obvious Covertness, bull in china shop) Narc-Sociopathic despotic Dominator-User. Dis-GUSTING behaviour and verbal abuse, you won't bloody believe how obnoxious he was!). It’s a long thread (*started when she was, I suspect, younger than you), but scroll down to the above ‘episode’, beginning roughly here: LILY31 - May 10 2022 at 18:24 EF/any Covert NPD might WELL be upset. 'Genuinely'. But the difference that consistently, repeatedly makes ALL the difference, is this: They do not have the right to be. (And that's why it feels so galling). They started it. They caused it. Whether on-the-spot or with malice aforethought – they thought it up/planned it (or did it purely on angry-ego impulse). They are nasty children with long-bottled-up, stagnated, venomous Resentment at anyone who is and/or has what they want to be/have (and believe they deserve more than stupid-you). Like children, they can START a fire, but as they lack the adult skill of putting it out - instead, they throw fat on the fire (whereas Normals, who love equality, cooperation, peace and harmony, carefully pour water) - they and their broken-minded over-need/greed/’insecurities, and, therefore, illogical, self-and-other agendas (grabbing greedily for power or fearing losing it and ending up being exposed, shown-up, humiliated, etc.). "I don’t know exactly when EF started to not like me." The minute you became his closer friend into gf, she started to resent you even more than before. You and your mind threaten her serious delusions - her House of Cards that could all too easily come tumbling down (and her makeshift sanity with it) with one prod too many. That’s when the clock (inside you, the walking bomb) started ticking. (You know if you 'corner' them and give them too much truth, they can have a nervous breakdown?) Now do you (sort-of) see WHY her utter determination into downright desperation to fight dirty for her little fantasy world ("I'm Fab, no matter if I poo on your carpet!") by getting you out of that group and a million miles away from her?...you AND the pending truth about how, even just as his friend (with romance somehow alluded to, I'll bet) (see Heisenberg's thread - Am I In The Wrong Here), she psycho-emotionally abused your bf. To the point where he, back when his injuries were still fresh, says. to victim-script, that he couldn't bear the thought of "re-living it". What in that context, usually goes in place of the word 'it'? Answer: couldn't bear the thought of re-living THAT **NIGHTMARE**. Case Closed (but probably not over). "WHICH ONE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? :D Forgive me if I seem inconsistent, but in my last paragraph I was talking about EF. I truly don’t want to believe that she has such intentions because when we were close she was incredibly sweet. I understand that there is a chance I may have been blindsided though. I forgot to mention earlier, but EF allegedly freezes when she sees my BF." (Hmm. They’re well-known for their convincing acting-jobs and crocodile-tears. That was all to lend weight to why she would likely be ousting you (and your rapidly-growing intel).) But, no - my point was: isn't it interesting that I couldn't tell which one you meant! (Tweedledumb and Tweedledumber LOL.) Regarding responding to posts - I’ll give it a go if I feel I can contribute but I tend to doubt my ability in giving advice because of my age and lack of life experience :)." If you’ve got it – you’ve got it (again, see Lily’s thread, what she lacked in experience she made up for with brains and imagination). You’ll never know till you try? I could help if you wanted – for example, you could post your draft reply in here for me to read and check before you posted it for-real on the thread concerned? I don’t want to push you, though. So feel completely free to say no or not yet – no worries. :) Anyhoo, re the fuller pictures I’ve painted - what do you think now?

PPS: That's the whole problem: quite a few of them DO have a very sweet side. Most of the time it's forced/acted (.usually because they need to soft-soap you...want a favour or to manipulate you/whatever). At other times, it's because all is well in their world (successfully duping and getting their own way over yours or everyone's). You end up wishing they were two pieces of lego - their lovely side v their incredibly horrid side. So that you could throw away only the horrid side. Ever heard this old nursery-rhyme?... There was a little girl Who had a little curl Right in the middle of her forehead And when she was good, she was very, very good But when she was bad, she was HORRID! ("Narcissist - Jekyll & Hyde")

PPPS (for your inner Doubting Thomasina): "Yup, he knows too much. Yup, dump Violet (& The Choccie Teapots). "I have decided that regardless of what occurs, I am not going to try and patch up or interact with EF. I refuse to be friends with someone who is aware of their toxic behaviour patterns (bottling up, never communicating issues) and does not change them." Ignore above advice, PMSL - you're way ahead of me!" Way ahead of ME. Way AHEAD of me. WAY ahead of me. And yet you're worried that the fact you lack experience will hold you back? Hahahahaha! Based on what - that clear counter-evidence up there? :D You can just chat to them and empathise if you like? And ask relevant questions? That itself would be mightily handy for me. Gives me more supportive data to go on before I step in. It would also help me to know if they were ready to recover yet or were still reeling. OH, PLEEEEEAAAAAASE, Jane, PLEEEEEEAAAAAASE? Lol.

Forgot to add: we'll still continue on with your thread here, regardless, no worries.

Got any update, Jane? (Don't worry about posting if the thought's intimidating you, it's okay, forget I said anything :))

Hello! I do have a small update! Side note- you have convinced me! I will look into replying to forums when I find the time :) Anyhow, onto the update - I primarily spoke to the rest of my friends in our mutual friend group via our old group chat w EF. Last week I realised that it none of my friends ever really contacted me first, I never spoke to them outside of the group chat and whilst I was trying to keep conversation with them to keep things afloat, it wasn’t reciprocated. I’ve gone radio silent on them for a couple of days now. No one has said anything yet, and as expected still no further instruction as to whether I should apologise or speak to EF or not. It’s now been a month since she left our original group chat. At this point, I am unsure of whether I will ever be told what to do in relation to the issue with EF. If I do ever find out I’ll probably just apologise and let her be regardless. My friends in our old group chat were nice people, but as I’ve talked to some other important people in my life I’ve come to realise that I’m not a friend group person. I’d rather to just have two or three friends I keep in strong regular contact with then a group of ‘girlfriends’. In other news, BF mentioned that a mutual friend of EF (closer to EF than BF) has begun distancing themselves from him. We have a theory that something has been spreading without our awareness. I guess we will find out soon. It is important to note that he isn’t that close with his friend to begin with, so it may as well be unrelated. Overall, I’ve lost my friend group but I’m embracing my new independence. I’m sure I’ll find new friends when I move at the end of the year so I’m not too fussed on ‘being lonely forever’.

"Hello! I do have a small update! Side note- you have convinced me! I will look into replying to forums when I find the time :)" Oh, aren't you brave. :) Not that you need to be - and I'll look after you. You remind me a lot of Lily 'back when', you see. I mean, don't get me wrong, there's only ever going to be one Lily, and same for you, but you and she have that same vibe and clear-thinking, articulate, pragmatic, solutions-orientated attitude - and what's more, a strong and obviously *inherent*, Normal-Healthy Person template ('walking BS-detector') as your frame of reference aka comparisons guide...which makes up for the minimal experience. (Lils and you are far more succint than me, as well.) That's how Lils was able to basically say to you - this is the normal thing to do, try that first, but then - this (logical, damage-limiting process of elimination). Posters can get so used to that gaslighting, manipulation crap when it's been coming at them for months or more, and forget what Normal-Healthy acts and speaks like (that's another way NPDs get ya). Plus - I asked Lils generally if she could answer any new thread for me and SHE PICKED YOU. Ah-hah - see? Like Attracts Like. :) If you find you like it - I offer mentorship?...the slow-paced, leisurely, as fun as possible variety, if you fancy becoming a Lay expert on NPD (and personal Batwoman-like Narc-'slayer' to your friends and fam - LOL but true)? If you don't, no worries. And I'm here if, as I say, you want me to check your drafts before you submit them in any actual thread (I doubt any visitors would think to look in here)? Whenever you're ready... :) **************** Anyway, anyhow, anyhoo.... "I primarily spoke to the rest of my friends in our mutual friend group via our old group chat w EF. Last week I realised that it none of my friends ever really contacted me first, I never spoke to them outside of the group chat and whilst I was trying to keep conversation with them to keep things afloat, it wasn’t reciprocated." And stiil not giving you any reason, let alone A satisfactory, realistic one. Soooo beeping mean... They're HORRID. "I’ve gone radio silent on them for a couple of days now. No one has said anything yet, and as expected still no further instruction as to whether I should apologise or speak to EF or not. It’s now been a month since she left our original group chat." Yep. Too long. Any explanation or apology now, wouldn't even touch the sides of what must be growing resentment on your side (healthy reaction, no worries). "At this point, I am unsure of whether I will ever be told what to do in relation to the issue with EF." No. Because you're not crumbling and begging on your needs to PLEEEAASE still bee my frieeeends and PLEEEASE tell meee what I'm supposed to have dooone (sobbing desperately). AND WELL DONE THAT YOU WOULDN'T EVER SELL YOUR PRINCIPLES AND SACRIFICE YOUR SELF-RESPECT LIKE THAT (never-never-NEVER knock on the door marked More Insults & Rejection). That's what I meant by, you're too cool for school (leaving aside, too young now). Their reasons are because they don't just love but NEED the drama....the sense of power over you (both of which you're depriving them of HIGH FIVE!)... You haven't got the mean, childish hint, are still chatting like you AIN'T BOVVERED (and think it's silly). :) Showing them up EVEN MORE THAN BEFORE.. Good riddance to bad rubbish. You and your brand of intelligence and empathy could do SO SO-SO-SO-SO-SO much better. Even with grown adults. (Well, you've engaged and inspired me, that's for sure, and I'm HMPH-DE-HMPH YEARS OLDER THAN YOU. There you go, there's the indisputable proof. (I am actually very fussy, you know, LOL.) It's madness, isn't it, though. Invasion Of The Body Snatchers combined with Alice In Wonderland. Give it time for more dots to come forth and be joined in your head, though...you'll spot them, those missable little Red Flags everywhere back when the fiend-ships were budding. "If I do ever find out I’ll probably just apologise and let her be regardless." Hahaha...do the world a fun favour and *say it in person and pretend you're suffering from a mouthful of ulcers (cold virus): "EF, I'm THththtO, THththO THthOWEE- ...ooh, thowee again, I dutht sththpat al over your fave-rut sththirt!.... oh, THIT, I dthon't BELIEVE ththisth - I've only gone 'n dthon it AGAIN...!" (etc., etc., LOL). (*Spray, more like!) (Haaah...that was fun.) "My friends in our old group chat were nice people, but as I’ve talked to some other important people in my life I’ve come to realise that I’m not a friend group person." Well, I wouldn't blame groups when too many of them are still perfectly pleasant ones. It ain't the grouping, it's the *members of THIS group. But otherwise - fairenoughski. (*double-entendre very much intended :p) "I’d rather to just have two or three friends I keep in strong regular contact with then a group of ‘girlfriends’." Yeah. I agree. Save groupings for the mere acquaintances, maybe (and your rellies). You get better quality mental intimacy and intellectual growth with one- or two-to-ones. And keep them separate, don't get them all together until you've test-driven them for long enough (2 years?). Shouldn't be a problem, though, because you've just had a first-hand, indepth experience that's given you a massive How *Not* To manual (which will grow as more dots for joining ping in). Innit. How much has it lost you? Not a lot. How much would that deeply-impactful, crash-course on how stinky narcs are, even at arm's length (friendship), and the significant differences between reading only the theory and getting in the cage with them and going THROUGH it. Imagine having been your BF, shut in a room with her, no witnesses, the freedom to be her thoroughly pettily-but-not-pettily nasty self. Free Uni Of Life education. (Cheers, bitches!) "In other news, BF mentioned that a mutual friend of EF (closer to EF than BF) has begun distancing themselves from him." (Was 'him' a typo or a Freudian Slip? DO you think of her as more like a bloke (which FYI would be another piece of evidence)?) "We have a theory that something has been spreading without our awareness." :) You naughty little trend-setting rebels, you, haha. (But - yeah...that's it, everyone else, let us brave ones go in first for you delicate little flowers...jeez.... "buck-buck-buuuuuuck!" They could at least thank you in eggs!) But anyway. I've been waiting and ready for this. Earwigo... keep watching this space (everyone).... I hope you two have got a big basket and love Puzzle Books cos them's gonna be one heck of a lot of incoming dots! (The resulting picture will probably be a gargoyle...spoiler alert, haha.) "I guess we will find out soon. It is important to note that he isn’t that close with his friend to begin with, so it may as well be unrelated." Cliff-Hanger - "dann, dann, daaaaaan!". Tune in next week, folks! :D (This is a superb thread already. Talk about a road map.) "Overall, I’ve lost my friend group" Not logical, Captain. They proved they were your enemies. You just being you, must make them feel sooooooo stupid and ill-educated, AS WELL AS unable to grow/develop/upgrade yourself where they can't, that's all I can say. "but I’m embracing my new independence." You go, Beyonce! :D "I’m sure I’ll find new friends when I move at the end of the year so I’m not too fussed on ‘being lonely forever’." You're NOT lonely. You've got BF most of the time, you've me here to discuss and chat with (and other posters). You've just cut out deadwood. You'd have been BURSTING with friends if not for the fact you were hanging with that coven and didn't realise (why would you - ref. "buck-buck!") other people had to stay away from getting to know you, too. That's how it works. You watch. Again, once you've enough dots plus your even greater confidence this time (how it works), you're going to be attracting new friends all over the shop. Honestly, it is. (Because NPD's over-narrow psychology restricts and limits choices of responses and reactions, including verbal) this is all a set screenplay and script. If you like, Google something like, why do all Narcs and Narc Victims act the same. Great stuff. Really, really pleased. :)

PS: Got more to add later re what (on the Narc menu) to expect if you keep this radio silence going. A couple of days is NOTHING to them. Their type could Silent (or Cold/Fake Disinterested while still keeping tabs on your mood and temperature) Treatment as an Olympic sport! Google Narcissist - how long does Silent Treatment last, or some such.

Oh, duuuh - sorry, Jane, I somehow read this "We have a theory that something has been spreading without our awareness" as ABOUT our awareness! I think it's the heat and humidity. (I'm in Spain.) It's pretty intolerable already and it's not even August! Well, anyway.... Google "Narcissistic Smear Campaign". Wholly standard stuff. But you're unlikely to be bothering with their social circle ever again so - just ignore it all..."Do a Nigella... No Reaction....None. They'll get bored and pick on someone else, VERY quickly. It's like this: the ones that always liked you both, and see through them, will still like you. Those that don't or were all along for whatever (usually selfish) reasons, just pretending to like you, will leap on this excuse to take the side of your enemy. Better than putting them all, one-by-one, through a Lie Detector test, eh! I should cocoa! (Thanks again, b*tches!) The innocent victims, you and BF, end up with the truly quality people, and the coven will get more bums on seats but whom likewise are basically just stunted, mean-minded, superficial idiots. Overall, due to their mental deficits, Narcs who do the Smear get the short-term gain followed by long-term pain. Innocent victims, like you and BF, get the short-term pain followed by long-term gain. (I call that a good deal, myself.) You're still rebels who've rejected EF and her Flying Monkeys though. Note while you yourself were trying to keep a conversation going, what you WEREN'T doing was asking again and again what their and Ef's problem was. Actions! (Lack Of) Ignore the uck out of them. Unlike us, who just don't find it pleasant, Narcs LITERALLY cannot cope. (Ever seen Fatal Attraction? One of the lines that epitomises NPD Machievellis, goes, "I'm not just going to let you IGNORE me, Dan!". However, in your case, there's nothing they can do about it (except take their rage at having "lost" Chicken, out on each other/another). Not that they won't try to get your attention back (lick-lick-lick). You just ignore that too. Doesn't take long to feel better for no longer mixing/talking with them.

Jane - meet Trymil. (Trymil - meet Jane). :) (I've pasted-in this thread's URL on her thread too) https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13476/In-my-head-or-reality#jumptobottom A topic you know ALL ABOUT! :) Would you like to play Deputy with me on her thread? I've asked for more info, look. Take a peek and if you get the urge, just dive in! :)

Hello! Major update here: Bit the bullet and decided to speak to Cerena about what I had done wrong to EF so I could do better with future friendships. Here’s a breakdown of what they told me. (A quick run down in their words) with the responses I gave underneath each point: 1. I made EF feel invalidated by joking, making light hearted comments and downplaying the situation between her and BF. She says he was super creepy, made excuses, gaslighted and shifted the blame to her frequently. This was worsened upon her hearing that I had gotten together with him. My thoughts: I don’t recall joking about it or making light hearted comments about it tbh. It may have something to do with referring back to the time period and talking about how bad it was (it was a generally bad time period in a lot of peoples lives, including mine). I apologised for this, I also apologised for potentially bringing BF up in conversations although I tried not to. I told C that I only know BF’s side of the story, and I do not know nor will I ever know EF’s side, and from his side of the story I believed he was a victim of a toxic friendship just as much as EF was. 2. EF’s mutual friends are dating. I used to be good friends with both of them at different stages. A lot of people I knew made jokes about how they were very tight knit to the point where it seemed like they didn’t seperate. I made comments like this as well. My thoughts: this one is honestly 100% valid. I don’t speak to either friends because I was close with one of them during a horrible mental health period and feel that I treated them horribly, seeing them used to make me feel nauseous. One day I’d like to apologise to them, but I don’t have the courage to at the moment. However, previously EF spoke about someone that was lying about them, I don’t know if she was implying me, but I never lied about anything I spoke about those two. It was all my own experiences and thoughts. 3. BF recently unfollowed a bunch of my old friend group. C posed the following questions- - how do you feel about him unfollowing us? - Do you choose him over us? - will you continue to? - Hiw do you feel about us and your friendships by extension? My thought: 1. BF unfollowed them because he doesn’t interact with them, I told C this. 2, 3 and 4. I said the following (easy to copy paste) I’m not choosing anyone over anyone else. I’ve kept away from you guys because I don’t speak to you outside of group chats and all our group chats are dead. I don’t see you guys in person that often either. I started to feel like I’d never be spoken to unless I started speaking in the first place. 4. C brings up that a lot of people close to me (I’m guessing my old friend group and our mutual friends by extension?) don’t like my BF. She sort of hints at me to consider breaking up. She brings up that I didn’t tell them that I got together with him, and that I hid stories (I think Instagram stories or maybe not talking what I do with him, I am unsure) My thoughts: I’m not defending his actions. C did not bring up any particular reasons why, but I’m guessing it may be because of EF’s situation and because of the way he used to make jokes (teenager boys wanting attention as Soulmate mentioned before). I didn’t tell people that I got together with BF at all. I just started spending more time with him and people started saying we were dating. I told C that I like to keep my relationship to myself (esp when EF was around), and I only really speak about it with other people who are in relationships. In relation to the Instagram stories part (?) I posted a picture of my BF onto my close friends story - I’m guessing they may have found out somehow. I told C that I took our friends off my close friends because I genuinely believed that they weren’t interested in being friends with me anymore, not because I was trying to hide anything. Regarding breaking up, I said the following: ‘Will I break up with him? I’m going to be honest and say that I’ve always been treated really well in my relationship, but I understand my perspective is biased, so I will confide in and talk to someone else (this forum) to gain any advice’ - I like to do the moral and ethical thing, but most importantly the thing that’ll pay off the most in the long run. This is where I handover to you dear reader - I’m biased in my perspective but Is there something you’ve picked up here that should make me consider my relationship. I’m all ears. 5. C says I am hyper dependent with my BF because I talk to my BF about things and conversations that happen quite quickly (not secrets, generally just light and humour out things) My thoughts: I tell C that I literally cannot shut up and I tell people everything the minute something good or funny happens to me. I also say that I believe I am not hyperdependent on him, but understand that our perspectives differ. 6. Lastly, C brings up that my words and actions are confusing. I say that I understand because I’ve been hyper vigilant of what I say around the group since the beginning of the year. I end my message to C by saying that I’m grateful for the time I had with them but that I don’t think it would be responsible of me to stick around considering the situation with EF. In addition, I’ve never kept up much of a rapport with them outside of group chats, so I don’t see a chance for the friendship to continue. I apologise for including C in this issue, and say that they should never have to be the messenger within a conflict and I’m sorry they had to do so. I thank them for their time. I’ll answer any questions but I’ll also include C’s response later if she brings up anything.

one last note, I think the thing C brings up are worth note. I am a flawed person, BF is flawed as well and I’m happy to receive a judgement that could ultimately determine to be as plainly put it - a bad friend. The only thing I’m truly upset with C for is how it took THIS LONG for all these issues to be brought up to the surface. And I had to ASK HER to tell me this as well. That’s annoying. How am I supposed to know if I’m being confusing if I’m never told? Let’s say, my BF is actually a sociopathic person who is masking to try and get something out of me - Was I supposed to wait until I was dead in a ditch to find out ‘most of my close friends’ (side note: I only consider myself to be close to like 2 people, and they both hang out with eachother) didn’t like him the entire time? Everyone wants people to be honest with them, and tell them all the facts about what’s going on but they’ll never actually do it themselves. It’s ridiculous. Anyway, I am due to call BF in less than an hour, I will not bring up the ‘hey maybe break up’ part to him but I will discuss the things that have been said about him and update it here.

Update (Hopefully the final one of the night) Spoke to BF about my concerns with what C told me about EF’s side of the story with her old ‘friendship’ with BF. He didn’t use the exact same words but he did corroborate the story. He said he was overly defensive and wouldn’t let someone point out his flaws without pointing out theirs back. He says he used to overapologise and didn’t realise how far people would take his jokes either. Most importantly he says he regrets it, and he would hate himself if he continued to be the same person he was.

Here’s my actual final update of the night (potentially one of the last ever?) C messaged me back, and her tone had shifted COMPLETELY. In these messages she was incredibly kind and understanding. I’ll try and paraphrase her responses, the following is from her POV. ‘I don’t know how he was affected by their friendship but I don’t doubt that he’s aware of what’s happened and has changed since then. This whole ordeal hasn’t been a pleasant thing to dig up for everyone and I honestly wish we didn’t have to talk about this. But unfortunately it was inevitable from the start. (Regarding the situation should the two friends who are dating) yeah I don’t know about it but that’s another unpleasant situation and I don’t wanna bring it up again cause yknow. (In regards to BF unfolllowing) yeah that’s completely valid, some people were just wondering why and how you felt about it because they’re your friends. (In relation to me talking about how I haven’t spoken to them and felt like they didn’t want to be friends etc.) yeah I’ve barely seen you and I’m sorry you felt that way. I wanted to speak to you after I was updated about the whole situation but I didn’t know how or what to talk about. (In regards to not speaking about my relationship) yeah I understand it’s difficult to talk about that topic with them. I still want to be friends with you and I’m sorry you felt that way, I understand if you’re not interested in being friends with us though because it’s been difficult. (In regards to me not being able to shut up) Yeah I get that, some people just found it bothersome when they’d tell you something like a joke and BF would talk to them about it soon after, I didn’t really mind though. (Regarding breaking up) that’s a decision you make alone and with him, while I’ve heard many people don’t like him I think he’s a pretty alright guy. I’m glad to hear you’re being treated well because I hear the opposite about too many peoples relationships, I know he isn’t the same person from back then, we’ve all changed in that time period so I trust that. It’s not right to take things out on people but people do that with reason and I don’t ignore that. I genuinely wish the best for you. People change and grow constantly and I just hope everyone can live comfortably and forgive themselves. (Regarding me censoring myself and being hyper vigilant) I recognise you’ve done that, I really do. It isn’t easy to talk with someone if they don’t see the people you’re close with in the same light. That’s a taxing thing to do, regulate your moves and other’s emotions’ My thoughts: I went through all of C’s messages with another friend (most logical person I know) and from what it seems, C’s initial messages were largely influenced or written by other people, and her reply is her true thoughts. It’s funny to say, but I cannot think of a single person that I care about that would be writing/directing these messages and calling themselves my ‘close friend’. Honestly hilarious to think about. Well, I guess this is it. The end of the stage play. It’s weird to say, but it feels almost bittersweet to get this over and done with. I became a lot more aware of what I need and where to draw the line in friendships and I learned a lot about narcissists lol. I’ll continue to lurk on this site though, because I’m so grateful I had it with me. Now it’s actually ridiculously late in my Timezone so I’m going to reflect this situation and put myself to bed :).

Bear with - you're next!...

Bit the bullet and decided to speak to Cerena about what I had done wrong to EF so I could do better with future friendships. Here’s a breakdown of what they told me. (A quick run down in their words) with the responses I gave underneath each point: (Cerana - a feminising play on Cerano (Bergerac)). Just pasted in - can't wait to her this!... "1. I made EF feel invalidated by joking, making light hearted comments and downplaying the situation between her and BF. She says he was super creepy, made excuses, gaslighted and shifted the blame to her frequently. This was worsened upon her hearing that I had gotten together with him." She's "Narcissistic Blame-Shifting" by "Narcissistic Projection" (google). No way do you have that in you! It's obvious you wouldn't hurt a fly and neither are you socially clueless! "My thoughts: I don’t recall joking about it or making light hearted comments about it tbh." Yuh. BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T. "It may have something to do with referring back to the time period and talking about how bad it was (it was a generally bad time period in a lot of peoples lives, including mine). I apologised for this, I also apologised for potentially bringing BF up in conversations although I tried not to. I told C that I only know BF’s side of the story, and I do not know nor will I ever know EF’s side, and from his side of the story I believed he was a victim of a toxic friendship just as much as EF was." Ipressively diplomatically put! (See? Not remotely inept.) So far - all to script. "2. EF’s mutual friends are dating. I used to be good friends with both of them at different stages. A lot of people I knew made jokes about how they were very tight knit to the point where it seemed like they didn’t seperate. I made comments like this as well." So what? That's just observational compedy, isn't it?...HENCE a lot of others were joking about it too. Why would EF care?? Answer: because it serves her to, now. I think she's too desperate to blacken your character in order to destroy your credibility (if you were to 'squeal' about BF's side of the story) but can't find any dirt on you, so is coming up with nonsense in the form of over-exaggeration and twisting. "My thoughts: this one is honestly 100% valid. I don’t speak to either friends because I was close with one of them during a horrible mental health period and feel that I treated them horribly, seeing them used to make me feel nauseous. One day I’d like to apologise to them, but I don’t have the courage to at the moment. However, previously EF spoke about someone that was lying about them, I don’t know if she was implying me, but I never lied about anything I spoke about those two. It was all my own experiences and thoughts." Define 'treated them horribly'? Well, whatever - she patently obviously has done what they do: started the smear campaign much earlier on (the minute you became BF's GF, I'm sure), in preparation for when, inevitably (always inevitably) she needed to activate your Ejector Seat from the group while looking convincingly like the offended party (again, because she's been dreading you divulging said inside intel; she'd tell, ergo, you probably would (her perception. Or even just - could.) And let's NOT forget this is the (er) woman whom, you know, has bad-mouthed you - again for no reason - many a time before this over-melodramatic, sham of a debacle occurred. I mean, as supposedly justifiable reasons - talk about Tenuous?! This is too asinine for me. Isn't it, you? Aren't you just thinking - WTF? WHAT ARE YOU LOT *ON*?! CAN'T YOU HEAR YOURSELF AND HOW MAD YOU SOUND?! Don't you feel a bit like Alice-In-Wonderland, up against the Queen of Hearts? DUMP that boyfriend or OFF WITH YOUR HEAD! ***NOW TELL ME THIS: DO ANY OF *THEM* HAVE A MEANINGFUL, STEADY RELATIONSHIP?*** "3. BF recently unfollowed a bunch of my old friend group. C posed the following questions- - how do you feel about him unfollowing us?" Pardon? What are you - his mother?? "- Do you choose him over us?" ((BEEP OFF, YOU TWO-FACED BEEP! Who the hell do you think you are!!! Think you can dictate who Jane dates or not? YE GODS.)) I hope you said - after the ridiculously mean and childish way you lot have behaved - DAMN RIGHT, I DO - FOR STARTERS, HE'S A GROWN-UP! AND FOR SECONDERS - SANE! "- will you continue to?" I've seen and heard enough. THIS FRIEND IS TOXIC TOO! She is playing No. 1 Flying Monkey (but not an innocent-but-ignorant one). Sorry. To suggest she isn't, in the view of the above GLARING, textbook behaviour, would be ridiculous. The level of entitlement to CONTROL you. Woah. Off the charts!! This is actual Coercive Control, Jane (google). Trying to dictate your lifestyle and love-life to suit them and only them and SOD YOU or HIM or anyone....because you're just the slave, the tag-along, etc., there to make THEM feel good/not sh*t, or so they have all along been desperate to convince themselves - and you - including VIA you - that they're your BOSSES. (I would also insist on a yacht in my pay-packet :p) (and an Emergency Razor Blade). - Hiw do you feel about us and your friendships by extension?" ((YOU'RE ALL SERIOUSLY PSYCHOLOGICALLY DISTURBED ALL THE WAY DOWN TO YOUR VERY PERSONALITY, LUV - that's how!)) "My thought: 1. BF unfollowed them because he doesn’t interact with them, I told C this. " Well done. "2, 3 and 4. I said the following (easy to copy paste) I’m not choosing anyone over anyone else. I’ve kept away from you guys because I don’t speak to you outside of group chats and all our group chats are dead. I don’t see you guys in person that often either. I started to feel like I’d never be spoken to unless I started speaking in the first place. " Excellent. 'Telling it LIKE IT IS'. And in a calm, dignified manner (GROWN-UP!). "4. C brings up that a lot of people close to me (I’m guessing my old friend group and our mutual friends by extension?) don’t like my BF." Without ANY good reason, bar the fact he has dirt on EF and Cerana clearly thinks she's EF's mother and that EF and your BF - and you - are still at Middle School. ***What C is REALLY doing is - playing EF's sniper assistant in order to avoid becoming EF's next target. Plain and Simple. She'd rather it were you than her. End Of. She is throwing you under the bus, Jane.*** "She sort of hints at me to consider breaking up." Hinting? She's as hinty as a brick in your face! "She brings up that I didn’t tell them that I got together with him,2 So??? That is your perfect beeping right! (Ahhh, but you don't have rights if you're in their precious gang, do you, little slave,...little adoring fan.) ...Tick, tick, effing tick, tickety-beeping-tick-tick-tick!...every behavioural and attitudinal box. OUTRAGEOUS! And more to the point, the biggie characteristic that separates a Covert (at that point) Narc-Spatha from your 'plain' Covert Malignant: NO SHAME!! *Identification Complete* You have to dump these jumped-up, highly self- and other-delusional loons. I'm sure you must realise that in view of the above, already, but I'll read on... "and that I hid stories (I think Instagram stories or maybe not talking what I do with him, I am unsure)" And did you once rip open your crisp packet in front of them, that bit too noisily thereby disrespectfully to Their Highnesses, as well? (*rolls eyes at this DRIVEL, these laughably trumped-up charges) "My thoughts:" (Are they by any chance - Give me the gun? If not, you've got the tolerance of a saint.) "I’m not defending his actions. C did not bring up any particular reasons why, but I’m guessing it may be because of EF’s situation and because of the way he used to make jokes (teenager boys wanting attention as Soulmate mentioned before)." Well, no, not attention - not knowing how to handle such heavy (and weird) talk. Friendship is supposed to be fun. Because you're relaxed. Because you feel safe to. Especially at that age! "I didn’t tell people that I got together with BF at all. I just started spending more time with him and people started saying we were dating. I told C that I like to keep my relationship to myself (esp when EF was around)," Absolutely. You were trying to be considerate. But they can't see that because they have no idea of what being considerate looks or feels like so cannot relate ergo assume your motivation must be as theirs would be: doing it deliberately to upset them...I mean, don't you know you're supposed to let them in on and to control EVERYTHING?...to REPORT to your superior officers? (There aren't words for this, there really aren't. Narcs are getting bolder, I'm telling you!) I'm only surprised she didn't demand to read your diary or give you a full body-search! "and I only really speak about it with other people who are in relationships." Phhhhrrrff........AND? "In relation to the Instagram stories part (?) I posted a picture of my BF onto my close friends story - I’m guessing they may have found out somehow." Uh....uh-dud-buh-er....what? I'll tell you what. That was you 'naming the puppy''. That was when EF started panicking and really going for the smearing while scheming-up this plan to "be so upset with you she couldn't even SPEAK to you and had to get Mummy to do it for her, boo-hooo". Their behaviour only ceases to be abnormal - only becomes normal - if you try very hard to convince yourself that these young women are only 8 years old, Jane. EIGHT. Why I said, Middle School. Seriously. I myself had (to endure) conversations like this at Middle School!: Nyeah-nyeah-nyeah...if you're going to be friends with X when we don't like them ((simply because they'd dared answer the bullies back rather than kow-towed)) then we won't want to be your friend any more, either, nyeah-nyeah. (My answer: well, they don't like you, either, but they'd never say something like that to me in a million years so...bye-eee? (shooing action with back of hand). I mean - are they actually for-real or is this secretly some hidden camera, comedy stitch up show, shot in bits, and you're the comedy target? I'm telling you - they have left school but taken their group dynamic (Mean Girls/Top Girls/"The Populars" (dreadeds, more like) WITH them and are trying to make these childish 'survival' roles and ploys work in the Adult World too! NOT. A. HOPE. IN. HELL. it that going to work now, at your ages. They`re going to get fired all over the shop and experience one disasterous, overly high-octane, dramatic, mainly acrominious relationship after another. They iz doooooomed. I'm not sure that this bunch would know how to take a train journey, unaccompanied, frankly. (Do they know how to boil a kettle yet?) "I told C that I took our friends off my close friends because I genuinely believed that they weren’t interested in being friends with me anymore, not because I was trying to hide anything." Fairenoughski, obviously. "Regarding breaking up, I said the following: ‘Will I break up with him? I’m going to be honest and say that I’ve always been treated really well in my relationship, but I understand my perspective is biased, so I will confide in and talk to someone else (this forum) to gain any advice’ - I like to do the moral and ethical thing, but most importantly the thing that’ll pay off the most in the long run. This is where I handover to you dear reader - I’m biased in my perspective but Is there something you’ve picked up here that should make me consider my relationship. I’m all ears." Tsk. Oh, Jane. Stop that. You haven't done anything wrong. THEY have. They expect 100%, undying loyalty and compulsion to please Royal Them from Peasant-Slave You whilst they give you f-all in return: 'Narcissists expect you to give up everything to be their nothing'. This whole set-up EPITOMISES this anti-NPD meme! "5. C says I am hyper dependent with my BF because I talk to my BF about things and conversations that happen quite quickly (not secrets, generally just light and humour out things)" Pardon?? I don't even GET that?! "My thoughts: I tell C that I literally cannot shut up and I tell people everything the minute something good or funny happens to me." As is your right and perfectly normal, yes - and? "I also say that I believe I am not hyperdependent on him, but understand that our perspectives differ." LOL. You should go into politics, Jane. "6. Lastly, C brings up that my words and actions are confusing." Ohhhh, the Gross Hypocrisy, doncha just LOVE the Gross Hypocrisy. It truly is the mark of stupidity. Again - 'Projection, Your Honour!' (/ 'Sustained') "I say that I understand because I’ve been hyper vigilant of what I say around the group since the beginning of the year." I can see why!!! "I end my message to C by saying that I’m grateful for the time I had with them but that I don’t think it would be responsible of me to stick around considering the situation with EF." Wow. I'm not joking: politics. (You sound incredibly adult and she sounds...like you're talking to a..well, like I say - an eight year old child with ideas massively above her station.) PS: YESSS! YES-YES-YES-YES-YESSS! WELL DONE! Seriously well done, giant thumbs-up. "In addition, I’ve never kept up much of a rapport with them outside of group chats, so I don’t see a chance for the friendship to continue." Excellent point! "I apologise for including C in this issue, and say that they should never have to be the messenger within a conflict and I’m sorry they had to do so." OOH. You are just TOO CLEVER. And not just for them! THAT IS PURE COUNTER-MANIPULATION of the "Plant seed - water - and retreat" variety. In other words: 'Open your eyes, luv - EF has done you a massive disservice!...what's THAT all about, then - doesn't she CARE about your feelings and welfare, just as long as you're doing her dirty work FOR her, she's happy?... is that how it is between you? HAHA! Pure class. You've just set them onto each other! WATCH THAT SPACE! (Are you SURE you're not having me on over your age?) "I thank them for their time." HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!! "I’ll answer any questions but I’ll also include C’s response later if she brings up anything." Oh, there's more! (Ohh greeeeaaat...zzzz...) (don't mean you). Right, I'll read that in the (er) morning... Make that late morning, possibly just after lunchtime or even mid-afternoon (OMG I've just noticed it's 6.50am!!) So far? Probably about 10 Gold Stars at-once?? Is your forehead roomy enough? :D

Honest-to-God, Jane. You did not do anything, NOT ONE, SINGLE THING that any normal, sane person would ever feel the need to take the slightest of issue over. If you had, if I'd seen anything untoward or insensitive on your part - I would have told you. You're just a typical victim-target, doing nothing but getting on with your life (how very DARE you - off with your head!). This is all a pile of cooked-up (by the two of them, I now reckon), jumped-up charges so that you will feel obliged to prove to them that you DOOO love them (I mean, who wouldn't, when they're just so LOVEABLE!) - by (HAHAHAHA!) chucking your lovely boyfriend. Put VERY simply: you were supposed to be the runt of the 'pack'. Instead, you've developed t*ts well ahead of them. Basically. Which makes them feel flat-chested/behind in development.... not consciously but in a niggling way. Add the fact they're the spoiled baby variety of Narcissists and VOILA - Cuckoo Pie! But not bad for little kids, let's be fair here (hahaha). They can tell you're growing up. Proven by earning and accruing grown-up stuff, like, an ADULT, SEROUS romantic relationship. Thanks to your providing that contrast in front of the mirror - that they are falling behind - you must be (a) hobbled back into your lowly place, confidence confiscated forever, or soon the contrast will be so stark, so striking, so shocking (about what it says about their own, crippled mentalities and capabilities), that not even they will be able to continue denying it. (b) If you can't be 'hobbled smaller again', you must be 'chased out of town'. Instead, you've in the nicest, most polite, most grown-up way, told them all to "Do one!" because "Poo, they smell!" and made it sound like a compliment. Haha! Their brains are going to be tied in knots already! You natural-born Narc-Slayer, you! (I'm surprised they were still letting you 'open your mouth', in case you might ever say 'vagina' where they still call it their 'front bot-bot' or 'pee-pee'....that they hadn't Cellotaped over your lips yet! Or would that have been next? I would NOT put it past them!)

"C messaged me back, and her tone had shifted COMPLETELY. In these messages she was incredibly kind and understanding. " Don't be fooled, Jane. This is what I see: It's obvious the GROUP problem (or agreed surface problem if you prefer, since it's likewise obvious to me that C and EF, each have their own personal agenda going on) is that they've been able to tell ("Narc predator senses") for a while now - confirmed by your having "named the puppy" on that other social media and, no doubt, your steady rise in confidence and chirpiness (how very dare you) - that they're under threat of losing control over you to BF. And so all of this has been, the group trying desperately (via the Ostracisations Rack) to keep you, their 'minion' under THEIR thumbs, not "icky" BF's. As for C - I'm sorry, but, reading all of that, hearing her, like that, which is all too familiar and characteristic ...she's a snake, Jane. Smooth-talking, calm as a cucumber, Machievelli maestro, can change 'her' attitude and 'sides' on a sixpence. (Because she only has one side - hers.) A higher-functioning, "Silver Spoon" Sociopath OR low-functioning Psychopathic social-climber. DEEPLY Covert. Stealthy. Plays caring and innocent/not involved, like a pro. Ef is just an attention-seeking, spoiled baby Narc or Low-Functional Spath-Narc, who loves the drama and playing popularity contests. But C is using EF's fear of being exposed (by your BF via you) as a way to manipulate her, towards a take-over bid (queen of the castle). With you, the observer-pointer-truthsayer gone (because you might call out her behaviour as the only one who'd see it), the coast is clear to gain dominance over EF and the entire group with it. That explains the reason and the ONLY reason, why C was 'going against universal, social grain' by convincing you NOT to confront or even approach EF. (It was just too back-to-front, stuck out like a sore thumb.) She didn't want the two of you getting to talk alone, inevitably getting to compare notes and realise you'd both been duped and puppeteered by C, the stirrer. (Google Narc Triangulation) She is the one who has stoked EF's existing fire/fear (manipulating her perception/interpretation of things you said in innocence, as I say) into an inferno, through her vantage position of damage-limitating "mediator" who can make it ALL better (not)...having positioned herself as the only person can play human telephone between you...Only she's not...because there's too much deliberate distortion. (Her type are likened to a spider in the centre of the web who ensures each caught fly is placed at a distance from its neighbour, so as to become sole messenger, thereby able to control, doctor or downright corrupt the messages to suit her own aim. She's had free rein all this time during Group Chats, etc., to instigate private asides with EF wherein she's been twisting or downright rewriting history (your words and sentances) into "deliberate, veiled insults"...which no doubt always started with - "How do you FEEL about what Jane's just put?" / "What - where?" / "Well, maybe it's just me, but, don't you think it's a bit obvious by saying Blah, that she's subtly insinuating Blah-Blah and insulting you?"...that kind of crap... all delivered in a manner of, 'like butter wouldn't melt in her mouth'). Ignoring her smooth expertise with words, syntax and semantics-manipulation ('everyday psycho' symptom, sorry), her sweet act ('Too sweet to be wholesome') - the overriding message is simply this, the opposite of how she's presenting to you: ******* Here is a choice, but actually is no choice at all because I know you're going to make in favour of your boyfriend: The group concsensus is: If you keep him, you can't be our friend any more, but you can if you dump him. Ludicrous. Unreal immaturity there. Who the hell in that situation WOULDN'T choose your Boyfriend, especially after having already been needlessly and convolutedly tortured on the rack in the dark by this bunch of bossy, self-important idiots? Who'd choose THAT over their lovely BF whom before that was the only one who'd come their resue? PFFF! You see? It was guaranteed you'd pick him (and if it wasn't before, it was after C kept it going and worsening for that ridiculous length of time). HENCE WHY, as soon as you said so up there, suddenly she's switched tone and style because she's all happy, having succeeded in her mentally-stunted aim to get to dominate EF and co. While pretending to be neutral again (it's not anything to with me-eee!). I mean - condensed down it would be this: "Wanna stay in our club? Shoot your boyfriend" / "No way, never, why should I, he hasn't put a thing wrong!" / "May I compliment Madam for her excellent choice!" (puke) The only answer, really, was, "Oh eff-off and get professional help, you mad b*tch". But you're too polite for that. ******* But, what a snake. Good riddance to bad and outrageously petty, pathetic, snake-in-the-grass, rubbish. If THIS is the only way this woman can ever get to experience being the self-important Boss of anyone in her lifetime, then, I pity as much as am repulsed by her. Liken it to two execuutives at work who swear to one another and the whole office, that they're bestie colleagues, but each too arrogant to realise that the other is lying and sucking-up just to use her, too. Suddenly it's announced that their boss is leaving in a month. Now the gloves are off. C has persuaded EF that she's not interested in the position, because it'll involve this or that, blah-lie-blah, but hears YOU are (you're not), and that you've been spreading lies told to you by another colleague now on another floor (BF) to sabotage her chances. "Don't worry - I'll sort it out for you", she says. Voila. You get framed whereby EF refuses to work alongside you, meaning, you get fired (last in-first out), but just as EF is about to have her in-house interview for the position, C suddenly sabotages her chance to attend the interview, has the interview herself as planned all along, taking credit for all of EF's projects, and gets given the job on that higher rung. (Can you see it?) Social espionage. Double-agent who doesn't give a stuff about either of you OR anyone else for that matter. But - all too common for "senior" , 'everyday' spaths or psychos to use a "less senior" egotist as their future-dispensible tool for cheating their way into leadership, start firing decents and hiring wolves and snakes like themselves...whereupon the company inevitably goes to the wall because they're all self-aggrandizing idiots whom in reality couldn't run a bath...This happens for-real in companies and corporations too; narcs get everywhere and ruin or destroy everything...they are 'the few that spoil it for everyone else'. PA THETIC. Too childishly-evil for words. I feel childish for just talking about it - don't you? And that's yet another thing to dislike about them. They've done you a favour, mate - even if they don't know they have and believe the opposite. They obviously believed your fawning. Idiots. What ELSE are you going to do if you're lonely at the time and they've made it tacitly or even subliminally clear that 'keeping their egos constantly inflated and afloat' is the price of inclusion. Good luck to them because they'll bloody need it. They literally do not know how to function with other people in the adult world, other than how they behaved at school. Oh, and the fact they're nasty, spiteful, greedy, over-entitled, self-deludedly superior, spoiled b*tches, of course.

Oh and important PS: "Let’s say, my BF is actually a sociopathic person who is masking to try and get something out of me" No, let's NOT. The sociopathic is the one who "wants you to give up everything to be their nothing". It's not him who's (unjustifiably, non-rightfully, over-entitledly) telling you - "Me or Them - choose!", is it, now... (Actions, Actions, ACTIONS - pay attention to the feet, not the mouth alone). Innocent victim. Was just too unwordly and immature at that early point to know how the hell to reply to or handle a giant Narcissist without them storing up huge bitterness and compulsion to get revenge 'later' (for every itty-bitty thing; their egos can't let a single thing go). And why the hell SHOULD he know! Not knowing how to deal with a normal-appearing, secret nutjob at that young age is hardly a crime, is it. For a lot of people, it's SHOCKING when they suddenly start coming out with warped, Narcissistic attitudes, etc. Most end up speechless, not having a clue what to think or say back! So - Case Closed. Eez luverly. :) And so are you. You're a lovely couple, just trying to mind your own business and not upset anyone if you can help it. Just so happens a pack of nutters don't agree. OH, NO, HOW TERRIBLE, HOW UNFATHOMABLE, LOL!

And this, BTW, is also Triangulation. 'I say, you smell. And Tom, Dick & Harry all agree with me'. (Well, if, according to you, Tom, Dick & Harry, I smell - why don't you just go find someone who doesn't? Tthere are plenty more fish in the sea - what's wrong with you?) Don't like you. Don't want to let you go (because you're too useful....albeit not to C). That's Narcs for ya. (Gosh, I wonder who's going to constantly inflate their rubber-rings with the permanent puncture NOW??)

I personally still think C was playing the role of the messenger with her first messages (not her responses to mine), because now that I’ve thought about it, one of the issues C brought up was hyper-dependence right. I’ll re-explain what she meant. C mentioned that conversations get shared too quickly for comfort between me and BF. Essentially, someone would tell me a joke or say something interesting and I’d tell him and sometimes he’d talk to them about it as a conversation starter. Just as a ‘Hey, I heard about this and I thought it was funny/cool etc’ I remembered today that EF brought that up to me as a problem she had YEARS AGO. Like I’m talking five years ago. For context, EF and I weren’t close but we’d still talk every so often and I was good friends with BF at the time so once I told him about a joke that EF made (in my memory the specific incident is she told me his profile picture looked like a sock (it was an animal wearing a hat) and I told him and later on she said that she didn’t like how I told him that and it made her uncomfortable. C said she had no issue with it, so I’m pretty sure, and before her message she said ‘This is what I remember off the top of my head’ so it seemed like a collection of other peoples thoughts. To add to this, when she said that my actions and words were confusing she said ‘me personally, I think you’re actions and words are confusing’ and ended the message. Personally, I think she organised the message like this: - EF’s issues (because I was specifically asking for what I did to EF so I could grow past it) - General group concerns - her own confusion Also to add on, when I said I treated EF’s friend horribly (the one in a relationship), I was really close with them in a time where I wasn’t doing well and in reflection I feel like I just vented to them all the time, and was too concerned with how I felt and what was panicking and stressing me out to be a good and present friend. To wrap it all up, my personal theory is this: - a week or two ago, C is ‘updated’ on the situation. EF vents and talks to the group about her problems and the rest of the group get swept up (like a ‘burn the witch!’ moment) and start bringing up stupid things (the unfollowing etc.) as well. This doesn’t surprise me, they’re very easily influenced. Hell, I remember one of my other friends AND one of EF’s close friends making comments about how her friends that are in a relationship together never spend anytime apart, but I guess I’m the only one that’s gotten crucified for it. ALSO, overtime after I had learned more about their relationship from EF I just reminisced on my memories with them in the group chat and said they were a good person and a good couple together. - I ask C to tell me, and she gives me the rundown based on the energy and how the group was acting at the time. - I respond and she speaks like her usual self I wonder now, if she’ll ever communicate what I said with the rest of the group (I have a feeling that she will, but I’m not 1000% confident) or if she’ll just leave it be. Another thing is that group LOVES shit talking, we spent a lot of time talking about ex friends and C’s ex partner (EF even sent him an anonymous message from a burner account telling him he was an ugly rat!!) I was preparing to leave the group over this alone, because I felt like it was instilling bad habits in me, but a series of mostly good moments made me feel like staying (If only I had known my initial reaction was right the entire time!!) EF has now developed a reputation for keeping grudges.

DON'T BE FOOLED... "Another thing is that group LOVES shit talking, we spent a lot of time talking about...C’s ex partner (EF even sent him an anonymous message from a burner account telling him he was an ugly rat!!) " Yes. C puppeteered EF to do her dirty-work. Can you seriously not see it? Look at it this way: If that were you or I, and we vented about our ex to a friend (like friends are supposed to let you do, in safest confidence), but the next thing we knew, that friend had gone behind our back and insulted him anonymously but that vilely-childishly, like some mentally-unstable, Jerry Springer 'guest', we would be so outraged and so furious with them ("How dare you meddle in my personal private affairs!"). In fact, it would probably strike us as such a gross overstepping of the mark, we would find outselves unable to move past it and would have to part ways. Evidence shows, that didn't happen, did it. Their 'friendship' is still going strong. Case Closed. Modus Operandum possibilities: (a) Via C's subtly pelted manipulation, EF was MEANT to get the idea and feel at liberty (to Spath proportions - Zero Regard For Boundaries, ergo sticking their nose where it doesn't belong, verbally assulting anyone dispensible, of no use to them, whom they don't 'admire'/need/covet - as we see, in an highly Inappropriate and Anti-Social way, like the person is scum. EF subconsciously got the message and Green light before instigating and executing the whole thing solo. (b) Alternatively(ish), EF directly offered it up, whereupon C patted her on the head for her brilliant idea (which would 'honestly never have occurred to' Miss Butter Wouldn't Melt...ol' Mother Theresa there), thereby giving her her blessing, but which, equally characteristically, would have been phrased in a later-retractable, deniable way - Google Plausible Deniability - e.g. "At the time I thought she was just JOKING so when I said - Haha, Please do - I was merely joking back, I didn't think she'd actually go and DO it so how is that MY fault?")... Either of which - without getting blood on her own hands, just EF's. Which is what's been happening here: The blood again appears to be solely on EF's hands but I can too plainly see that it's C who hands EF the knife each time. This she'd do via word and mind-manipulation too architypcally subtle and under-the-recipient's radar - which when added to the Spath-lackey's desire to win the 'senior officer's' approval (by showing-off their usefulness) - tips the Narc-Spath's scales. (FYI, Psychopaths, e.g. bank robbers, end up in prison almost always only because one of their team turned out to be a Spath who inevitably sabotaged the job's otherwise (typically Psychopathically) smooth-running, with his hot headedness and impulsivity (e.g. being at loggerheads with a colleague or the psycho boss himself). In fact, given this new, extra data (- cheers!) regarding EF's wholly Antagonistic, Antisocial, Aggressive, wholly (to us -) Needless, Avoidable, Futile, Risky, as well as Shameless behaviour (which you'd expect to see only from some disturbed, 10-12-year-old school-delinquent and expulsion candidate type!), and given that we now have a prime example in the form of EF doing something that you'd normally expect only C to decide to do or not - it doesn't take much stretch of the imagination to conclude the following: (a) C either will NOT relay a word of what you've said, although this is unlikely because EF and the others will undoubtedly be gagging to know (albeit, that assumes they *know* C has just emailed with you? Quite possibly not). (b) or she will, but it'll get turned into a twisted or completely made-up version...a load of crap and lies designed to permanently seal the evictions deal (not that you'd want back in anyway, but, understand that plenty of others *would*, which is why they expect it from you too) (*Epic Fail*). Not merely the messenger - the orchestrator and secret executor, meanwhile making EF out to be the sole baddie to you and doing likewise to EF. She's unwittingly done you a favour, though. Not that she'll see it that way. She's thinking (her ego would need the boost) that she managed to blackmail you into leaving, rather than, you'd been itching to anyway. PS: I loved where you thanked them for their time, haha. So reminiscent of an interviewer saying, Thanks but you've not been successful at this time, however, we'll keep your CV on-file (not) for the future. Still, they'll need to get used to 'letters' like that so you've done them a favour too, LOL. ******************************* And STILL - nowhere do I see you behaving as if you meant to be horrible. Go into more detail about how this couple made you nauseous during the period when you were stressed?

When I've got a bit more time, I'll dissect C's email for you and show you how, where it matters, her statements only appear to be logical but are actually far from it.

UGH I regret deleting my thread with C (I usually delete threads when I send a risky message, so I don’t get caught up with checking them over and over) But when EF said that to C’s ex partner I remember talking to C about how EF sending that made me uncomfortable because I thought it was rude (we were all active in the group chat when she told us she was going to send it) and I don’t remember what she said exactly, but it was something along the lines of ‘oh yeah, I understand’. Regarding the nausea. It was mainly me just realising how stupid I was acting so the nausea was like a byproduct of guilt and shame and wondering if they hated me (I get nauseous when I’m anxious) One of the biggest realisations I had about C, when I was waiting for her response was that even if I was still friends with her, I could never trust her. She still talks to an ex friend of the group and used her communication with her to sort of fill us in on what she was up to and doing etc. and then everyone would clown on her (this ex friend). C always alleged this idea that she had weak boundaries and just wanted to be nice to everyone I’m a bit :/ about that now.

Heya, be with you tomorrow, bear with! :)

"UGH I regret deleting my thread with C (I usually delete threads when I send a risky message, so I don’t get caught up with checking them over and over)" Doesn't matter - you remember it: "But when EF said that to C’s ex partner I remember talking to C about how EF sending that made me uncomfortable because I thought it was rude" (Damn right x 2!) "(we were all active in the group chat when she told us she was going to send it) and I don’t remember what she said exactly, but it was something along the lines of ‘oh yeah, I understand’." She understood. And let EF send it anyway. There she is: All Summed Up in one little nutshell. Mouth says A, Actions say Z. I'm sure you are already, but - now apply that to her receent "mediation attempts". (You sit on her - I'll cuff her!) "Regarding the nausea. It was mainly me just realising how stupid I was acting so the nausea was like a byproduct of guilt and shame and wondering if they hated me (I get nauseous when I’m anxious)" If anxiety hits again, try drinking ice-cold water with fresh lemon juice (it numbs the...vagus nerve, is it?). Also force yourself to yawn until it 'takes off/takes over', naturally. I presume this "His n Hers" couple were aware you were suffering anxiety at that time? "One of the biggest realisations I had about C, when I was waiting for her response was that even if I was still friends with her, I could never trust her." EEEEXACTLY, well extrapolated, modom. When you finally get a chance to realise you're connected to their Matrix, and get off, it's not long until you realise there's just no getting back on. Impossible. You lose all respect for them, too, for the childishly sh*tty way the've operated and behaved (fat onto fire), let alone treated you specifically. And then you wonder who ELSE they've ever treated like that. (Answer: lots....Slave-come-Toxins-Toilet is a fast-turnover kinda job,...can't think why? lol.) "She still talks to an ex friend of the group and used her communication with her to sort of fill us in on what she was up to and doing etc. and then everyone would clown on her (this ex friend)." What horrid, nasty psychological bullies they are. Just YUCK...unclean....(sprays anti-Vampire aerosol). "C always alleged this idea that she had weak boundaries and just wanted to be nice to everyone I’m a bit :/ about that now." Yeah, LOL, JUST A BIT! She's definitely a Covert. That's a classic move: I am aware I have this antisocial, antagonist habit that is (should be) easily fixed but I'd rather just 'admit' to it as if it's unfixable and/or so that you'll wait around for years for me to address and correct it. It basically translates to: Yes I know but I don't want to change because I don't give a sh*t...although you still have to make that allowance for me because it's not my fault, it just "is". Or - shorter version - an arrogant: Yup....AND...? So Toxic. So-so-so Toxic. Anyway - those were well chunky jigsaw pieces flying in there, weren't they?! Any more since?

PS: So DO any of the coven have a serious boyfriend? Or, put another way: do an of them have a serious, HARMONIOUS romantic relationship?

Hello! I wasn’t talking to the couple at this time period, so I’m unsure if they assumed I was struggling with some anxiety at that point. I mainly kept to myself during that time period (post stopping talking to one of the people in the couple, pre getting to know the people in my previous friend group) so I’d assume not. No, none of the ‘Coven’ are in a serious relationship. C was in a relationship most recently, the way she speaks about it is ‘I remember nothing of the relationship, but six months in I wasn’t happy and didn’t want to actively be in it anymore’. They broke up around a couple of months after that for different reasons. Aside from that, they generally have an ‘ew men’ mindset (they used to joke that I’d probably be one of the first to get married, whilst the rest would be single for a long time or were generally afraid of commitment) it’s another reason why I was uncomfortable talking about my relationship to them. They’re so against it in the first place and don’t like or approve of many guys to begin with, I felt like I’d always be the odd one out for being in a relationship because that wasn’t really an ‘accepted(?)’ thing. In that group I was the ‘mentally healthy’ person. The one who didn’t panic or cry every second day about assignments or other inconveniences, had a normal, healthy sleep schedule. I remember they once described me as ‘classic and dependable’. Definitely one of the more vanilla people of the group lol.

PPS: But you've just confirmed 100% that you indeed ARE the truth-spotter and -sayer. There. We. GO. You definitely DO make a really crap Emotional Slave. You and your good rearing and conduct/behaviour, including insistence on human purity, must have frequently irritated the uck out of C. I'll say it again: Narc's Worst Nightmare / Super-Nova Empath. (I bloody love your generation, you're all so savvy and full of healthy pride, self-esteem, self-assertion and -protection skills AND empathy...all of the indelible variety. WAY emotionally-advanced for your ages, you guys are. And you all irritate/enrage Narcs so damn well all over the shop. Because you're just too clued-up and clever for them, even more than my generation. :) This for me, in fact, epitomises you all... Enjoy! https://www.youtube.com/shorts/G98sdYGAmM4)

Oops my message got cut off. The reason I mention it was because they were a lot of jokes thrown around about being a little ‘troubled?’ I guess. Very much that modern teenage saying of ‘trauma is character dvevelopment’ esp from C. When we talked about her problems the rest of would still get serious though and try and encourage her to go to therapy, build better boundaries etc. It all seemed quite healthy and sweet in the moment, but now I see it as a bunch of unhelpful sweet nothings.

Ooh - there you are! Hello! ) We've gone Live in the studio :D Why aren't you asleep yet? Been out on the town, the two of you? Let me read what you've just posted...

Haha, in my Timezone it’s nearing the afternoon. This is prime time for me!

"I wasn’t talking to the couple at this time period, so I’m unsure if they assumed I was struggling with some anxiety at that point. I mainly kept to myself during that time period (post stopping talking to one of the people in the couple, pre getting to know the people in my previous friend group) so I’d assume not." Then what is it you were supposed to have done to them? All I've seen is gentle (flattering, actually!) teasing that highlights how incredibly close they are/were! Any sane couple without issues would laugh along! It's not just not a big deal - it's not ANY deal! ...Yeah....scraping the barrel, finding no dirt down there so making it up. "No, none of the ‘Coven’ are in a serious relationship." There you go. How did I know that? Answer: goes with the territory....fastest partner-turnover in the West! "C was in a relationship most recently, the way she speaks about it is ‘I remember nothing of the relationship, but six months in I wasn’t happy and didn’t want to actively be in it anymore’. WORD SALAD ALERT. Translation: Don't question me, just take my word for it. If you question me, you'll find out it was HE who wasn't happy 6 months in, etc. and I can't have any of you finding THAT out, let alone the gory details. Because "I am perfect". (Perforated, more like!) "They broke up around a couple of months after that for different reasons." Que? "Aside from that, they generally have an ‘ew men’ mindset" BINGO - Female and male Spaths have only one difference: the males seem to want to set records for impregnanting every woman everywhere, whereas the females are (hate this word but it's appropriate with these) sl*ts/sl*gs don't like/hate kids but will have them to superglue the man to them/making it too difficult to leave. One of the things they're identical in, is: misogyny/misandry. Men are useless, only good for putting up shelves. Women are useless, should spend all day chained to the kitchen sink. (Both genders are huge Dominator-Controllers. Both are crass and potty-mouthed (in private) Both use sex as a giant hook (and there is a Performance/Showing-Off lilt to it). Could go on but would be here all night...) "(they used to joke that I’d probably be one of the first to get married, whilst the rest would be single for a long time or were generally afraid of commitment)" Ohhhhh. NOT total toxic b*tches then - just commitment-shy. Riiiiight. And Jeffrey Dahmer was just over-lonelyyyy.....poor wickle serial killers of the fleshy or these days slow-burning, psychological version (certainly if one is incarcerated with them, e.g. romantic), they were "only" x and "just" this... (Ach.) (Yeah, and we're only banging you up for decades, luv.) "it’s another reason why I was uncomfortable talking about my relationship to them." Not surprised! "They’re so against it in the first place" Course. If you're in THEIR club, YOU'VE got to loath (blame) men too! Having a relationship, again, is like you showing-off your boobs to their little "currants on breadboard". They don't get to cast any first stone when we've just sat and watched them behave like the sodding psych. Gestapo with you! "and don’t like or approve of many guys to begin with, I felt like I’d always be the odd one out for being in a relationship because that wasn’t really an ‘accepted(?)’ thing." Yup, as above. You're very healthy and advanced, Jane. You make them feel soooo damned small and stupid, etc., etc., that it really, really threatens their self-delusions. Again, no wonder you had to go. (They're never going to be GenZ's. These bozos are stuck in the Dark Ages, regardless of modern developments and progresses in thinking/relating. They iz STUCK...in Groundhog Day and Groundhog Century.) (Buy them all a Barbie or a My Little Pony for Xmas. Or a wheel each, chipped out of stone, LOL.) "In that group I was the ‘mentally healthy’ person." Hahaha, you're ahead of me again, look! Glad you realise it. "The one who didn’t panic or cry every second day about assignments or other inconveniences, had a normal, healthy sleep schedule. I remember they once described me as ‘classic and dependable’. Definitely one of the more vanilla people of the group lol." Vanilla has always been, and remains, BY FAR, the most popular flavour on the planet. Usually because it can be adapted to any flavour you like - via sauces and sprinkles or making it an accompaniament (team-player) to another desert. PS: Try to recall: was it C or EF who first uttered this anti-men attitude?

Haha, in my Timezone it’s nearing the afternoon. This is prime time for me!

"Haha, in my Timezone it’s nearing the afternoon. This is prime time for me!" Oh, haha! Well, it's still bedtime for C and EF and co. Pass it on! It's 4:07am here. Mind if I finish up tomorrow? I am ZONKED. The heat and particularly the humidity here are insane. Thought last year was bad enough.

Take your time! Also, if you have anymore questions let me know, it’s easy to answer them in one big post. I don’t know who would’ve said it first as it’s a fairly common belief nowadays, but EF was definitely more into it and more vocal about it than C was. EF was a big proponent of it and so were our other friends. I participated because I wanted to feel included. C and her ex broke up because they were both going through a hard time and couldn’t support one another anymore without feeling drained themselves.

PS: random question: does C walk/move quite slowly? Also, does she speak that bit too quietly most of the time?

"C and her ex broke up because they were both going through a hard time and couldn’t support one another anymore without feeling drained themselves." I have spent the last 10 minutes laughing myself silly, literally rolling on the floor, going, "Oh my god, oh my god!". If you knew what I knew to the depth I know, you would be too! You've just provided concrete evidence that C for whatever reason at the time, misjudged and mis-picked her next victim...that he turned out to be her male counterpart - a (eventually cold, neglectful) Covert!!!! That's what happens when two Narcs mistakenly, in total ignorance, do a 'cross-con'! Both fake give-give-give then both withdraw-withdraw-withdraw....you're left with two mean, machievellia kids sat opposite one another, both holding their greedy and ever-hungry little hands out!!! Then finally realising and parting toute suite! (You first. No, you. No, you.... hahahahahah!!!) (And - "We all make mistakes, said the Tortoise, climbing off the rock") TOO FUNNY! ....So. She's turning her 'attention' towards women this time, then. The Gentler, More Giving gender. Watch that space...

Night then - see you tomorrow! I DEFINITELY have more questions. This goes way deeper than we first thought! Now I see the UPPERMOST reason you had to be removed. For-good. Using EF as the crowbar. See at what point you can guess what I'm getting at... Cluea: EF is the one mostly doing the I Hate Men noises. C "agrees" and nurtures it. C has only just recently made a big mis-profiling boo-boo, picked a male counterpart Covert. Came out with nothing more than she went in with (and same for him). Can't risk THAT again (tick-tock-tick-tock...she's got debts, I'll bet, or has been up to stuff at work that, if found out, would have her instantly dismissed without any forewarning!) 'YEAH! THAT'S RIGHT, EF - MEN ARE PIGS!' Meanwhile, she tests out EF's adoration and loyalty when EF seeks her approval and offers it in the form of bashing C's ex. Yup - Present and Correct... ...Move to Love-Bombing (seducing...hypnotising...getting the victim to do something they thought they'd never, ever do/agree to do (standard but little mentioned symptom). EF is on her way to getting stung. WHADDATHINKABOUT THAT THEN! Talk about only the iceberg tip visible! And such a tiny seeming tip! Typical Covert (think Cold War Spy). In fact, you'd think they thought they were Jesus the way they act so "butter wouldn't melt"...ach, don't get me started, haha. Night. (Not joking though, am deadly serious. C is the (Silver Spoon) Spath. Mild (hahaha!, like Jalepeno sauce or Fahl curry mild). Is EF or her family rich? Or is she 'above' C at work? If you were still there, you might say something along the lines of, 'Since when were you a lesbian, C? Or you for that matter, EF?'.

PS: This is a 'blanket' symptom, which I recognised: The Malignant 'straight' Narcissist is Covert - single-layer. The Malignant Sociopathic Narcissist (higher rank but the M-Narc would have a few things to say about that, in terms of actualy smooth superiority...truth is - Comme Ci, Comme Ca; the M-Narc uses you to SAVE expenditure/money (secretly, you pay more than your fair share), the Spath "borrows"/takes/steals/saps your money), but anyway... The N-Spath uses Overt - petty squabbles/fallings-out like this one - as a smoke-screen. To keep all potential witnesses too focused on what's going on ABOVE table to notice a thing, UNDER. The UNDER is: EF has been targetted and now has to be isolated from all human support (the rest of the group will be sent or offended away next, you watch). Thing is, though, I'm not 100% clear (because EF sounds "bawdy" whereas C sounds "silent but deadly") on whether it's TWO Spaths but where C is far higher up the scale or simply a lot more intelligent than EF. So what I'm left with is: C: things in-common with a Spath. And now I need to know her both public and private demeanour...how she speaks, moves, gesticulates (whether or not)...all of that. If you please M'Colleague? K. Going now...

Hi, I’ll answer your questions as best as I can. EF is probably the strangest extrovert I’ve ever met. Years ago I thought she was the shyest person ever because she was so quiet. These days she’s come out of her shell and she’s louder but she still won’t really speak until spoken to. Her extrovertedness was more evident when around our friends. She’d be louder, happy to make jokes and be honest about what she thought etc. if I was around she’d go a bit quiet. There’s this facial expression I remember her giving me, head slightly tilted down looking up. (I am taller than her though). It sort of made me feel like she didn’t really like me. C is very sweet, however she’s admitted she’s good at playing the bubbly and naive character when interacting with other people she doesn’t really like. She’s still very bubbly most of the time, she still keeps to herself though I’d say EF has more friends than her but C is still loved by our mutual friends. My impression of the friend group was that everyone was closest to C and because of that she was often the one that got lovingly made fun of (she was okay with it). She’s also a bit easily distracted, daydreaming etc. Regarding C’s ex. It came out that he had made some misogynistic comments and that’s why people were so accusatory and had that ‘I hate men’ attitude toward him. EF sent the message I mentioned earlier because she was bored and needed something to spice things up.

Just realised my link for some reason didn't work - let me try again (and PS, Google Jeffrey Dahmer first so that you really get the joke): https://www.youtube.com/shorts/G98sdYGAmM4 If it still doesn't work, try typing this in your URL: GenZ vs Jeffrey Dahmer #shorts #TheManniiShow.com

"EF is probably the strangest extrovert I’ve ever met. Years ago I thought she was the shyest person ever because she was so quiet. These days she’s come out of her shell and she’s louder but she still won’t really speak until spoken to. Her extrovertedness was more evident when around our friends. She’d be louder, happy to make jokes and be honest about what she thought etc. if I was around she’d go a bit quiet. There’s this facial expression I remember her giving me, head slightly tilted down looking up. (I am taller than her though). It sort of made me feel like she didn’t really like me. " Studying you. STILL. Steadily, increasingly wary of you. Cannot get your number. Course not. It's self-neurotypified Asperger's - sort of Ex-Asperger's - so they haven't a CLUE (because you have to INTERESTED in other humans to take any notice of this/that condition or eccentricity, Big Fat Innit, and THEY. DON'T. CARE, save for whatever it serves them to care about. Them. And what's in it for them.) She was Covert. It didn't work out so well outside of school. So she tried to switch style to Overt. (Either as a dominant style are only ever a personal preference depending on which they do best and which will work best in any situation, hence why Coverts CAN break/fling off their mask if pushed enough, into an Overt-style Giant Toddler tantrum.) But as you see, she just swings episodically from one over-extreme to the other, making her a Black or White character. It's contrived mood and behaviour. But she's clearly a vulnerable: "Boo-hoo, look what you've made me do (to you)!" (comorbidity with Histronic PD, perhaps). Whereas C is like an evil Mr Spock. Cold as ice, clinical, detached (in the nature of her under-the-table aims, I mean) but feigning a sort of Geisha act mixed with a Nun...doesn't so much shuffle or walk, as GLIDE. Has a sort of Saint complex.... "I understand (Ahh-AHH-AAAAHHHH, bless you my child)". AND: "C is very sweet, however she’s admitted she’s good at playing the bubbly and naive character when interacting with other people she doesn’t really like." Which, reading between the lines, she obviously does often. I.e. there are a lot of people she takes a dislike to. And why do that if it's only a case of 'doesn't really' (as suggests mild dislike....AGAIN mouth says A, behaviour shows the truth: Z). Contemptuous, huh. It's called, Deliberately Playing Dumb aka Denial. Why doesn't she just try to fix the acquaintanceship/friendship? And if that failed - just stay AWAY from them? That's what NTs do. Nah, not her. It's because, with keeping up a false face to you lot while working steadily on EF, she needed to appear lovely at all times, MEANING, constantly needed to use this or that 'disdained person' as a Toxins Toilet. Discharge on them - stay Clean in front of you plural. (That's the Narcissistic side of things.)... BUT THE NUMEROUS VICTIMS THEMSELVES ALWAYS REMAIN UNAWARE. She grinds her teeth at them to you lot (her coven), and in her head. BIN-GO! "She’s still very bubbly most of the time, she still keeps to herself though I’d say EF has more friends than her..." More naturally a loner. (Noted) "...but C is still loved by our mutual friends." Probably because they're completely unaware of her predominantly nasty side, so - correction: C's *false persona aka mask* is loved by your mutual friends. "My impression of the friend group was that everyone was closest to C and because of that she was often the one that got lovingly made fun of (she was okay with it)." Because it's attention. (And - correction: they (unbeknownst to them) won't have been close to her. Other way around, and ONLY the other way around. They keep a firm hold on YOUR sleeve but keep theirs out of your hand's reach. She is 'close' with all of you because she has taken up, positioned herself, as the spider in the centre of the Comms web. If you think about it: she cons multiple people at one time. "She’s also a bit easily distracted, daydreaming etc." Easily distracted. Fan-effing-tastic! PLUS she is too damned confidence and 'masterful'. (Have you tried doing a Police background check on her to see if she was at all delinquent as a tween and/or teen?) Unless there's any new data to come that could change this - my opinion now is that EF is "just" a Classic Narc, style mild Covert-Vulnerable BUT ASPIRES TO BE "AS POWERFUL AND IMPRESSIVE AND ABLE TO SWITCH STYLES" AS A SOCIOPATH....which is why has 'chosen' C over you....C will get her places/things (you - she doesn't even know if you're a tin-opener or a coffee-machine so can't make use of you) plus she can learn and model herself on C (to rise up the ranks), hence has been increasingly practising being more "noisy and visible" ABOVE that table (and hasn't got the hang of switching or mixing imperceptibly). Only....I no longer think C is a Spath. She's not bull in china shop, she's the opposite. I think she's an "everyday, lower-functioning, social-climbing Psychopath". All head and no heart. No conscience, no remorse. But...that still doesn't exclude Silver-Spoon Sociopathy. But then she's a loner. Spaths are giant Narcs so we have the "literally cannot stand to be without human company for '2 minutes'". Give me everything you've got. As well as the remaining Qs, like, is EF well-off. If you please? "Regarding C’s ex. It came out that he had made some misogynistic comments" Oh, so she doesn't mind misandry, just misogyny.... which is also typically Sexist if you think about it, HAHAHA! Typical Narcissistic Hypocrite aka One Rule For Them, Another or None For Me. "and that’s why people were so accusatory and had that ‘I hate men’ attitude toward him." Clever C. And doting EF. No questions asked, no requests for proof. Just - dive right in. Hung, drawn, quartered without a trial. Tell me - did this woman-hating ex ever REPLY to woman-EF's onslaught? "EF sent the message I mentioned earlier because she was bored and needed something to spice things up." Typical Vulnerable Dramatist. Pathologically Bored, it's called. C doesn't strike me as Pathologically Bored, thereby Easily Distracted (in-common with ADHD, untreated...one etiology of Sociopathy/NPD-AsPD). Not if she's even just *semi* Loner. Would you agree with that? PS: The reason I'm trying to identify C is in case you need to swallow your pride and warn EF to be on her guard (she doesn't deserve that, she, by the sounds, just deserves a seriously spanked bum...and an injection of both iQ and eQ Points). I can help you do it subtly, however, so subtly that it goes straight into her sub-conscious....'plant seed, water, retreat' again, rather than 'light fuse and skidaddle'.

PS: How does C seem to feel towards little kids and animals? Does she take risks? Obviously we know EF does...after all, if that Ex of C's WERE Niffy, he could have 'come after her with a big stick', right? Throw missiles at unknown quantities is very characteristic of an N- Spath. A Psycho plans and plots meticulously from A-Z, no hot-headedness whatsoever..COLD-headed...rarely gets found out/worked out. I detected no 'bubbly-ness' in her manner in her email, whatsoever. Saying that, C could be "quite bubbly" for EF's benefit (Narcissistic Mirroring - google). And NOT SORTING OUT (best to say nothing) is her M.O. So, as is typical for (let's just say) AsPD, she STIRS trouble, feigns wisdom and caring to keep people from talking/sorting, because she not only has an Isolation agenda on the go but clearly enjoys sitting back, watching the chaos as will attain said aim, ensue. Both spell Sociopath EXCEPT...I got tones of GLIBNESS...SHALLOW-NESS.... "I understaaaand" (how non-committal and meaningless is that!), maestro, shifting smoothly as cool silk as she hypocrisises ("Dump or Go...Excellent choice, Madam")...naturally quite a Loner...Also, she 'rations' herself (creating The Scarcity Principle-type appeal)....which all spells N-Psycho. And look at this, missus: C plays dumb with people she has Contempt for... (And yet she doesn't really sound that Narcissistic. More Machievelli and Irresponsible with everyone's welfare and right to autonomy. Definitely a puppeteer - and worse, multi-puppeteering. She also, as I say, has a knack of getting you lot to do as she "advises" without questioning....using this 'gentle, dignified-sounding, highly convincing concerned act'.) So...C plays dumb with people she has Contempt for, ***And C, CLEARLY, has been playing dumb (and butter wouldn't melt) with EF.*** (As well as that Boundary-and-Loyalty-testing machinating via passivity or encouragement re the Ex, that goes, 'If I repeatedly, in the tiniest but frequent drips, make these hints and noises - will you go and do/help yourself to beating-up This person'. Answer Yes.) ***QUESTION: What was the time-lag between sending the stinky email to C's Ex and this hoo-hah first kicking off?*** Those are seemingly contradictory symptoms. I only hope, therefore, that she's not a Combo Woman: socio-pathologised Psychopath (psycho raised by an N or N-Spath, basically)). And that's why I'm saying, EF maybe (if more data alone or by tipping the scales proves definitely distinguishing) should be warned.

Put it this way: C is far too young to be that smooth and calculating. It's got to be natural-born. I mean, look at EF: so wet behind the ears, still, that she doesn't even know which M.O. style to adopt yet! See the chasmic difference? C is just too maestro-subtle and self-assured to be just sociopathic/purely man-made.

""My impression of the friend group was that everyone was closest to C and because of that she was often the one that got lovingly made fun of (she was okay with it)." Because it's attention."" But pure narcs/n-spaths (sociopaths little S) wouldn't like that because it would be seen as disrespect and humiliation. An everyday, user-manipulator, female Psycho on the other hand, would at most find it cause for amusement (go ahead, my pretties...you've no idea what's coming). They don't NEED other people to constantly keep pumping-up their self-delusion that they're everyone's superior. Because it's NOT a mere delusion. It goes deeper: IT'S AN INDELIBLE, GENUINE BELIEF. That's the "professional" vibe I get from C. Agree? Too cool, confident and self-assured AND successfully Machievelli by far.

C loves small kids and animals. She’s very motherly (she’s a big sister - and very close to her younger sister) as well, I forgot to mention that although she doesn’t actively *try* to be motherly. I think C is staying away from the people she doesn’t like now, but before I think she just saw it as keeping the peace as those people would complain if she wasn’t with them. C’s always framed herself as non-confrontational with poor boundary setting, so that’s why she stays ‘friends’ with people. She isn’t a troublemaker. Is EF well off? I wouldn’t think so. We’re all middle class. EF’s smarter than C, I guess? EF isn’t really too honest with people - always says the nice thing. (always trying to be nice/do the least socially disruptive thing) - that’s my pet peeve with her. She’ll conceal her opinions and thoughts for social harmony and end up making it worse for herself. (She was quite confrontational with BF though so idk). Did C’s ex ever respond? - he mentioned the message to a mural friend of EF’s and that friend told EF about how confused he was and then proceeded to laugh about it with EF. That was one of the first things that made me uncomfortable. Does C take risks - No. I wouldn’t say so. The time lag - Two to three months I would guess. EF was very interested in psychology - particularly personality typing. (Enneagram, MBTI) I remember once I mentioned my enneagram was 4 and she said that made sense. I don’t know. EF’s always said she’s good at reading people. When I mentioned how I wanted to talk to a mental health professional about getting diagnosed with autism/Asperger’s none of them really seemed to care. I mention this because it shows that I’ve explicitly stated that I have trouble reading social cues (i told them that ‘If you are upset with me, I probably won’t notice and you’ll have to tell me’ multiple times before this ordeal played out) This might be rude, but I don’t think either of them are smart enough to be so ‘scheming’.

another note - EF mentioned she has imposter syndrome and a lot of guilt about whether she’s a good person or not. From what I knew of her, she seemed like a troubled peacekeeper. C also seemed like a peacekeeper but more or less one that didn’t feel like it weighed on her so much. When I apologised for making her the messenger, she said ‘I know you probably don’t want me to say this (because I’d been pushing her to make better boundaries and not submit to other people) but I actually don’t mind’

"C loves small kids and animals." "She’s very motherly (she’s a big sister - and very close to her younger sister) as well," She's always had to play mother to her own sister, then. Google Narcissistic Parent-Child Role Reversal. You give a non-adult that kind of ADULT-sized power and it goes to their head (well, just look at how many actual adults can't cope and/or abuse their power, and nuff said!). They have neither the mature brainpower/ready wiring nor experience to carry such a mental weight called ADULT RESPONSIBILITY. The younger sibling ends up being raised (ineptly, unhealthily) or overly influenced by another clueless kid with a majorly over-inflated ego. A case of 'the blind leading the blind'. (I mean, turn the melodramatic dial downwards to-suit, obvs, but - ever SEEN Lord Of The Flies?) You don't leave kids in-charge of kids if you want them to come out of childhood programmed right and capable of growing, learning lessons and improving. (The day we stop growing-up is the day we die, yeah?) An Adult teaches a child how to be an adult if they want that kid to be taught how to be an adult. 'Close?'. Enmeshed, more like. Habitual behaviour at that age imprints too deeply to reverse, given that sort of child-neglect leaves the protagonist stunted and therefore without the adult mental abilities (despite their paper age keeps advancing) to 'go on a behavioural diet' or even know what the problem IS or that they HAVE one. Kid In Grown-Up Suit, I call it. This case, bossy, controlling, over-wilful, over-entitled and expectant,...basically jumped-up, mouthy and/or condescending to adults,...faux-precocious and pretentious (hence, NOTE, mouth says adult, actions say mean, spoiled, calculating kid), and with the serious delusion that they are special and superior (usually because the narc parent would give the kid high praise ("aren't you so grown-up, aren't you clever, what would I do without you") (- how's about be a parent?!) for doing their workload for them, but practically ignore them or their needs the rest of the time...(whereby the kid has to learn to be cunning and furtive to survive) which is because the parent is a corrupted kid in a grown-up suit as well...delegate down, delegate down, delegate down. Note that C's actions show she delegated down to EF, aka used her as a servant-come-rotweiller to intimidate her EVIDENTLY, BEMUSED (and probably galled) Ex into keeping schtum (just as EF's been lately attempting to do to her ex-confidant, your BF...no doubt on the recommendation of C)? And that's why she couldn't risk you doing the normal thing of trying to talk to EF. Look at her idea of 'motherly'. HAH! Yeah, if you're modelling yourself on Snow White's Evil Stepmother! EF, however, sounds like a spoiled Golden Child, same as C's younger sibling. "I forgot to mention that although she doesn’t actively *try* to be motherly..." Doesn't have to - it became automatic. It's what gives her her hit of her long-term drug cocktail: dopamine, oxytocin et al: going from chronically neglected to suddenly highly praised, maybe rewarded, causes your brain to release a huge dose of those, like Heroin/Opium. But only the first hit "does it" fully so you keep chasing it 'in case this time this time this time' or try constantly upping the dosage (trying even harder to make the parents extra pleased with you). But what you CAN'T do or KNOW to do if you're a powerless kid, is escape for-real or disconnect howevermuch emotionally. Kids can't self-protect against adult carers, plus their survival mechanism won't dare let them ("no supper for you tonight, then"). The Neglected NTs that LACK the genetic "je ne sais quoi" for refusing to accept and rebelling against that level of BS, tend to come out of that wash as your Malignant Covert Grandiose or Covert-Vulnerable (if tears and/or beating yourself up worked). However, if that Neglected (made to mother while deprived of a mother) is naturally a super-confident psychopath/has enough psychopathic traits... it's megalomaniac time (although the weapons to hand are childish and the aim petty). "I think C is staying away from the people she doesn’t like now, but before I think she just saw it as keeping the peace as those people would complain if she wasn’t with them. C’s always framed herself as non-confrontational with poor boundary setting, so that’s why she stays ‘friends’ with people. She isn’t a troublemaker." Refusing to be interpersonally cooperative by playing dumb, i.e. ultra-subtly i.e. secretly taking the piss to their face, meanwhile setting-up another young woman to unwittingly be the group's ongoing Sideshow Freak is her idea of 'keeping the peace'? PFFFFFFF. More like, the people she wasn't with had no use to her at that point so she was doing the typical Narc thing of keeping them warm on the side, meaning, when they started 'acting needy' she got angry at them for having needs (who taught her to do that, then, eh) BUT, rather than let rip at them, behind-closed-doors chewed on a teething-ring (you, Ef and the others). You think she LIKES kids? Or animals? How does that follow if she secretly has nothing but contempt and a superiority complex mixed with a giant chip on her shoulder, towards the two-legged animals (people)? Nobody who likes people behaves like that towards them - humiliates them PUBLICLY behind their backs AND SIMULTANEOUSLY to their face. More like as is typical with Narcs, she likes people she can have power over, feel superior to, in control of, who'll say, Yes, mum, no, mum, three-bags-full, mum - and will "Sit!" and "Heel!" and do tricks, instantly whenever ordered to. She was probably praised (bragged about) only whenever the friends and neighbours were there. Ultimately, her chain of actions as reveal her aim - the results of which you're living - don't add up with that, what I'm betting is, Narc Impressions Management (google). Have you been reading up online about Narcissisms in their various roles yet? "Is EF well off? I wouldn’t think so. We’re all middle class. EF’s smarter than C, I guess?" EF smarter? Really??? Are you remembering that C acts dumb (and is so proud of it she even risks bragging about it, because she's a virtuoso at it)? And the fact that C kept you and EF from one another at the worst time possible for the longest time possible, i.e. INFLAMED the situaton majorly, while all along, as the flames just got higher (as EF's unceasing, bloodyminded SULKING showed), suggesting that this were the only intelligent and sensible tack to take, when everyone knows, that (bar, say, a week or two's Time-Out) the universal solution is the polar opposite (Peace Talks...ring a bell)? And you of all mostly slime-proof people bought it - YOU? C just treated you like an idiot. I know and you know that you let her think she did. But clearly *some* of her slime stuck. But I did say she's highly, deeply covert. I've found the word I was searching for re that email: SMUG. And superior (condescending and patronising to-boot). Very pleased at 'your' decision WHEREAS a Normal-Healthy should have been sad (the end of an era!) and getting increasingly busy and desperate in her attempts to talk EF round in terms of at least attempting a phonecall or email conversation, the pair of you!) You've both been duped...gently and lovingly led, hand gently on your lower back, soothing, reassuring, purring confidence that everything will be okay if you do as I say... You, to falling down the well, never to be seen again, and EF into a well-disguised cell (or rabbit hutch full of real-seeming, plastic carrots). EF more so because she was led to basically verbally-abusively ambush some (ostensibly nasty!) bloke (BLOKE!) ...(which was, note to self, EF taking huge, IMPULSIVE risks while disregarding potential consequences 'to make C dependent on her via indispensibility' (Love-Bombing Spath, creating partner dependency)). Meanwhile, C is tantamount (petty version) to a Mafia Boss love-bombing his latest Minion/Mobster recruit to basically send him out onto the street to stab his business enemy and as a test of loyalty/usefulness both. Maybe EF is cleverer in ways you understand, whereas C is cunning, calculating, devious, stealthy..."smooth criminal" in ways you don't and don't pick up on? Smooth and overconfident. Very caringly persuasive (sells it well without once using flattery, NOTE)...all Cognitively skilled, emotionally pretty vacant (bar annoyance at being bothered by her increasingly unfed into starving "chicks"). I still think Social-Climbing, Sociopathic Psychopath, I still see around and behind and through every seemingly positive thing you report about her PLUS NOW - her background just adds weight to it because you've got to BE a "big, powerful...big everything" child to not end up accidently killing your younger sibling, and to even ATTEMPT to play mother for-real (without c*cking-up every little single thing whereby the parent goes, OH, JUST GIVE IT HERE!, and gives up trying to delegate that particular task, instead makes them Cleaner/Launderer/Cook type skivvy)! She still aligns. It's still an EF and group takeover and you being "purred" (psychopathic trance) into first the frying-pan and then purred (you let her think yet you still effectively were) into falling down the well. And she knows what she's doing - because she's been doing it for a very long time - because she WAS capable (logistically if not emotionally as led to permanent damage). Such a shame. With the correcting parenting C could have become something impressive, like a surgeon (could you cope with all that gore?!) or fire chief (could you run into a burning building to rescue a complete stranger?!) or frontline war journalist (both?!).... Balls plus intelligence plus a constantly cool head under-fire - fantastico. What a waste. Can't say the same for EF. If she ambushed and attacked some potentially emotionally or even physically dangerous man, like that, then she is both emotionally and cognitively as thick as pig-sh*t. She could have ended-up at the least being stalked and trespassed for years for all she knew...even identity thieved! How the hell did SHE know! She's HOT-headed-impulsive-ego-led, you see. Spath. EF was TRYING to tolerate your relationship if you think about it, and about how long she went WITHOUT making such a fuss,. Plus the fact there wasn't ENOUGH of a trigger in terms of actual happenings....unless she'd been re-lit and cranked-up. So that explains why it was never that much of a problem then suddenly was a HUGE one. EF clearly was fed that you did know what you've done and should apologise for. Hence the Never-ending Sulk. Probably was told to expect you to contact...and then you didn't. But EF risked a hell of a lot to make C find her indispensible...NO PROBLEMS CONFRONTING by email, BIG FAT EH! So where's yours? Yep. C wants EF to be her personal moll come rotweiller so you had to go. And all C had was some out-of-date issue to nurture and expand beyond recognition. Bottom Line: (regardless that you were secretly just about done anyway) she succeeded. End of. Clever. You have compare every characteristic past and present to THIS END RESULT of EF and you, having been prevented from doing the normal, natural thing to resolve matters or at least to agree to disaagree (and parting on good terms), resulting in EF having lost the group's solely socially-fearless 'shennanigans-spotter' and 'whistle-blower', equals, EF'S SUPPORT NETWORK IS NO LONGER AVAILABLE. (C doesn't sound sad and unliking the change AT ALL, she sounds pleased with herself.) Without right to - sure - BUT...EF *was* upset - she was sulking-style Silent Treatmenting (with no urge to find out - e.g. from another member - what was what because she'd been convinced she had it). (What - no Flying Monkey of her own to send in, other than the raring-to-be-'helpful' C?) Only the dupables and self-blinkerables are left. Jane, no matter that you've escaped - if you've 'attracted' them once, you're in danger of doing so again and again (it's how it goes...each is convincingly "nothing like a Narc"/"my ex"), but that in realiy is much more severe on the scale (thus more subtle) each time. The ONLY antidote is, you reading up on them so that next time, you see them coming a mile off - because you're finally viewing them through the *NPD Lens*, not the Normal Person Having Bad Day/Acting Weird Lens. And as you get older, they get worse. Want my help...links? *Or did you just mean, EF is better educated? RSvP?* "EF isn’t really too honest with people - always says the nice thing (always trying to be nice/do the least socially disruptive thing) - that’s my pet peeve with her. She’ll conceal her opinions and thoughts for social harmony and end up making it worse for herself. (She was quite confrontational with BF though so idk). - Two faced, typical Classic/Benign/Clueless Narcissism. - Confrontations Coward outside-of-doors, raging, frothing monster behind closed doors. - Dupes while being easily dupe-able. - Brash and bawdy, basically violent (her ambush) when not licking a*ses - Uses the Pity Ploy to get what she wants or avoid consequence. (Female) N-Spath. C, no matter her public image, is smooth, silent, furtive, deadly, ...bit like a cat-burglar...escapes detection by people un-familiar with her type of nature (e.g., figuratively-speaking, if they scratch their nose, it's not ever because their nose itches, and yet how do you tell the difference if you're unaware of their interpersonally sick and twisted, frankly un-human, downright alien-seeming motives and agendas?).... And psychos cover their tracks for miles, and never tell (so get away with it), whereas Spaths leave footprints, celebrate and brag (and get caught). Question (nearly forgot!): WHICH ONE IS SEXUALLY PROVOCATIVE - in how they dress (e.g. thighs AND cleavage) and behave and use their feminine goods and charms to get their way with men, maybe getting really girly and tittery OR acting like a smooth femme-fatal seducer? "Did C’s ex ever respond? - he mentioned the message to a mural friend of EF’s and that friend told EF about how confused he was and then proceeded to laugh about it with EF. That was one of the first things that made me uncomfortable." So, no, then - he didn't. He saw fit to stay away but confided to a fake friend that he was completely confused. When he COULD have made-up his own version, gone into detail. (= Victim) ******* Ok, so it wasn't that she mis-profiled and ended up with a male counterpart. She picked on a normal, treated him like a bit player to her Star and neglected him while siultaneously braying constantly to be attended to herself (galling-galling...!!!). Role corruption.... She lured a boyfriend with the promise of a girlfriend but then tried to make herself his child and he predominantly her parent (common... kids need parents, even if wearing fairly sophisticated grown-up suits and having a job). She's publicly forced *BLAME-SHARE* onto him (so he did HALF-manage to stand up for himself, then?)...half-stealing the victim cloak (the Spath always goes that bit too far so steals the whole thing but the Psycho takes only half, which blinds (entrances) you to the fact they shouldn't be taking ANY OF IT)...cancelling out the true perp and victim scenario by re-writing it as them having been equally as unhappy whereas it was just him.... she had it cushy AND refused to be nurturing (not taught how, eh) when he had an ACTUAL crisis...whereupon he fired her....HENCE she STILL wanted REVENGE on him (for turning out NOT to be the unconditonally-loving, 24/7 available, mummy/daddy that only your own parent (assuming they're healthy) can be. And used it to test out EF's blind loyalty while EF thought she was getting C addicted to her. Cat Burglar and on-call Thug. Thug so arrogant she believes she can addict the Cat Burglar, that SHE'S in charge and C is (or soon will be!) HER oh-so-motherly Helper... ...Don't mind me, just processing out-loud.... They're start-up Narcs. They haven't got the profiling down yet. Misidentification/bad targetting going on all over the shop... Oh and: " EF has now developed a reputation for keeping grudges." It wasn't her own grudge she was attacking that bloke over, though, was it. It was C's. They're both grudge-holders, have that in-common...the Spath because you hurt their Wembly-Stadium-sized (unearned, delusional) Self-Pride and especially if you did it 'publicly', the Psycho (whom no-one ever suspects) because you thwarted their cunning plan (they don't give one hoot for what you or anyone thinks about them). ...There again - C's Ex didn't have to react AT ALL... he could have just thought - mad b*tch, who the uck's SHE?! and deleted it for the ASBO-type chidish behavour it was. Instead he alleged that he was completely confused....plays dumb better than C did?...was overall cleverer than her? Hence no bitterness for him, just a Win? Could be either so we'll have to shelve this avenue. ******* "Does C take risks - No. I wouldn’t say so." No, as established, she gets minions to do all her dirty-work for her. Question (again): which one is still, and slow in their movements (and less facially and vocally expressive)? "***QUESTION: What was the time-lag between sending the stinky email to C's Ex and this hoo-hah first kicking off?***" "The time lag - Two to three months I would guess." Thanks. Question: And how many days/weeks after the email ambushing event did you voice your discomfort about it to C? (And let's remember it wasn't C voicing HER discomfort with it to YOU, big fat eh. Even during that opportunity to (you'd have said if she'd shown she objected to that supposedly giant liberty-taking.) "EF was very interested in psychology" Oh, great... Permanently irritable into angry, "insult"-scanning & hyper-over-reacting Toddler with a Kalashnikov. Great... " - particularly personality typing. (Enneagram, MBTI)" Right. Hopes it'll help with her victim-profiling, does she? (- rhetorical) "I remember once I mentioned my enneagram was 4 and she said that made sense. I don’t know. EF’s always said she’s good at reading people." Yup. Predator Senses. (Albeit, at her fledgling age, still room for massive improvement ref serious under-estimation of BF...*and* you). Your failure to have contacted her would have 'KILLED' EF (massive Narcissistic Injury). ...rendered her lovely and weakened and preoccupied (obsessed!) for Psycho C there.... Three For The Price of One well and patiently managed (albeit cuckoo) Action (again, should be too young for that yet). The perfect point to start completely and utterly dominating EF...OWNING EF. But back to the Narc Injury: and yet, still - no way would EF have cracked and called you because her ego literally wouldn't have let her (N-Spaths' concretedly-sick egos insist they risk death rather than "lose" or "give in"; it's astonishing....cutting off nose to spite own face doesn't come near it.) "When I mentioned how I wanted to talk to a mental health professional about getting diagnosed with autism/Asperger’s none of them really seemed to care." That's what it looks and feels like when people don't care, yes, correct...It feels like they don't. (Yours, The Non-Obvious Bleedin'-Obvious Society. ;) ) "I mention this because it shows that I’ve explicitly stated that I have trouble reading social cues (i told them that ‘If you are upset with me, I probably won’t notice and you’ll have to tell me’ multiple times before this ordeal played out)" That last part is sooooooo Aspie (*not enough* narcissism, *uber*-generous). But the first part is not true. Social Cues you have proven fine with to me. *Narcissistic* Social Cues - TOO FEW ARE! Their rules goalposts are constantly shifting and switching....yesterday's rules can even become today's crimes! Rules mean nothing except for handy crowbars in the moment, whatever suits their mood and self-gratuitous, McAim. "This might be rude, but I don’t think either of them are smart enough to be so ‘scheming’." They're scheming because they've been Pavlovian hard-trained over too long a period to be a schemer. They're Scheming-on-legs. They live, breathe and sleep scheming. These two lack enough practise, haven't lived enough years in the adult world, haven't switched to adult aims and weapons yet....just aren't maestros yet (despite C's machinating is disturbingly far advanced of EF's AND slipped through your Aspie radar a bit!). Sorry for that stream of consciousness...that was me trying various villain suits on the pair of them to see which fit their styles and crimes the best.... (Hahahah......Ratman and Dobbin! :D) (Sorry, it's RUH-HUH-HUH-HEEEAAALLLY HOT HERE!) Oh, wait- this one: "C also seemed like a peacekeeper" A peacekeeper. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Like Saddam Hussein was a peacemakING kind of peacemaker, yeh? HAHAHAHAHAH!!

Hah! "When I apologised for making her the messenger, she said ‘I know you probably don’t want me to say this (because I’d been pushing her to make better boundaries and not submit to other people) but I actually don’t mind’" Translation with psycho-level smoothness and superficial charm: Sod you, I'll continue doing what I like. I don't have a problem with boundaries anyway so the last thing I'm interested in is your brilliant solutions, I just told you that so you'd have to make allowances She's not submitting. She's going in belly-first, offering motherly supervision because it's how she lures victims. Wolf in Mum's clothing. And there's no PROBABLY about it, logically, is there, given that you'd been showing beyond a shadow of a doubt that you indeed would NOT want to hear that. It just means, screw you and butt out, but disguised in lashings of honey and sprinkles. Didn't mind. That's putting it mildly! She leapt on that opportunity. (Another thing with psychos: opportunists, can split-second plot the first few moves to get the nefarious ball rolling.) Tickety-tick-tick-tick - KEEP GOING! (Tyell me MOOOWR, tyell me moowr, like does she have a car, tyell me mooowr, tyell me mooowr, does she fit-in-a JAR!....)

(Heh-heh - I'm ruder ;D)

Here you go - the start of said promised links: https://psychopathsinlife.com/psychopath-glib-charm-superficiality/?utm_content=cmp-true (Extracts) "All the reading in the world cannot immunize you from the devastating effects of psychopaths. Everyone, including the experts, can be taken in, conned and left bewildered by them. A good psychopath can play a concerto on anyone’s heart strings” Dr Robert Hare One of the key things ((malignant)) psychopaths are known for is a glib, superficial charm which allows them to smooth talk pretty much anyone they like, manipulate almost at will, and wriggle their way out of any situations where they may be about to be confronted or exposed..." ((TICK!, TICK! and TICK!)) ((fyi, am talking about C in this, not EF)) ((Well, you CAN immunise yourself if you've sampled every single type and subtype in every main life-/relationship-role there is AND done all the reading in the world both prior, during and forever after to keep on top of it. Albeit, even then, full immunity would require you never having one, single Off-day or illness or anything else that lowered your resources or overly preoccupied you. You'd have to be always fit and focused as hell...but then, as Thomas Jefferson said: The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Concrete jungles padded in cotton wool - leafy jungles, seething with predators...jungles i< still jungles.)) "...This is basically a “mask” or front act which is designed to project the message to the world “Hey, I’m OK. I’m just like everyone else. I’m a normal, decent person with emotions and feelings, just like you. There’s no need to be frightened of me. Trust me”. The purpose of this mask is to hide the reality of the toxic, disordered psyche which is actually hiding underneath. The real internal world of a ((malignant aka broken)) psychopath is a toxic, scrambled mess, with a limited or absent emotional range and no ability for human qualities like empathy, genuine connection, compassion, remorse or conscience. ((Yawn...*malignant*)) Psychopaths have to hide this reality from normal people at all costs, which is where the superficial front act or mask of sanity comes in. They have to try to appear to be the opposite of what they really are. ((I.e. *not* malignant/broken)) For sure some ((malignant)) ((sorry but I insist we be pedantic thus fair to healthy ones)) psychopaths have a better mask of sanity than others. ((Plus they're subtler thus more convincing Chameleons than your OTT, self-charicaturing Spaths, e.g. biker to hippy to intellectual bookworm to mountain-hiker...with every switch in target-victim/"Primary Supply")) There are some people we meet who immediately come across as “not right” and have an odd, sometimes unhinged feel to them. ((exactly - the Spath...but he neeeaaarly makes up for it with increased dopamine addicting)) Other psychopaths though have a masterfully crafted mask or facade that takes a lot longer to see through. At first they can appear to be the opposite of a psychopath – charming, warm, receptive, interested in you, composed, even graceful and so on..." ((YUP!)) "...They also draw unsuspecting people into toxic relationships with this smooth act of deception ((TICK!)), often able to project an image of “coolness” and perfection that is very seductive to more easily influenced people ((TICK! - her email was exactly that)). Most ((malignant)) psychopaths ((healthily-reared ones are cool as uck, have genuine charm)) have spent a lifetime mastering this act of glib charm and have grown very brazen and confident using it on others. ((In other words: ALL psychos are charming, it's just the malignants abuse theirs for the power of selfishness..evil, and the pro-socials use theirs as people are meantt to - for the power of good...saintliness.)) They see how often and how easily it can work so they have an often outrageous confidencej ((TICK!)) in their ability to take in and manipulate others. It works for them so often, they have it down to an art form and are confident in their ability to manipulate anyone, and turn others against anyone who does see through them ((TICK!)). In this article we will look to pick apart this surface act of glibness and charm, defining it as precisely and thoroughly as possible so interested people know what to look for. We will look at all the different ways it can manifest, explain this act in the context of a facade or “mask of sanity”, and also provide some simple advice and pointers to more easily spot this shallow charm and vet characters more thoroughly. In this way, we hope to offer interested readers some immunity against this glib charm offensive so many psychopaths launch on new people they meet to try and take them in. Despite their very subtle and well practised manipulation skills, psychopaths can still be spotted and avoided if you have the right tools ((and the correct, precisely-tinted glasses)). Let’s look at the issue in more detail..." "They have often spent years refining and developing this surface act. Every relationship they enter offers a chance for them to better learn how to manipulate, the right things to say, how to wriggle out of being exposed, and upgrade their entire act of deception and manipulation. They get better at it each time. Putting a psychopath through therapy or treatment programs often has a similar effect; as psychopathy expert Robert Hare puts it: “Many psychopaths describe the traditional treatment programs as finishing schools where they hone their skills. Where they find out that there are lots of techniques they had not thought about before”. ((ALL malignants abuse therapy to fashion themselves more shields and ammo, by charming...entrancing the therapist; but the malig. psycho is the best at it by far because he/she uses intellect as well and is talented at Word Salad)) Therefore, with the more intelligent and composed psychopaths, it can take longer to see past their glib surface act, since they have become so clever at hiding. However, all psychopaths will sooner or later give themselves away by displaying a predictable pattern of character traits and manipulative tactics" ((TICK! C has shown repeating patterns all over the shop)) "If you drill down deep enough into human behavior, there are some things which people simply wouldn’t do unless they were deeply toxic ((**)), and this is how you trap a psychopath eventually, regardless of all the smoke and mirrors they can put up to deceive others, or gaslight them into thinking something didn’t happen or wasn’t said. ((**such AS, insisting the best move with EF was to do nothing, stay back...skillfully manipulating and manoevring EF into playing rotweiller - notably too long after the fact! - towards her Ex)) Psychopathy and self defense expert Stefan Verstappen brilliantly sums up how to spot for subtle signs of this surface or mask slipping. See the video just below where he sums up the issue of the mask slipping with a psychopath or other disordered person: “They use a lot of energy to put on this performance for you. They’re pretending to be human….They have this mask on them, and it takes a lot of effort to keep this mask up and every now and then it drops and they’ll do something or say something that is so immoral or so out of sync with what a normal feeling person would do that most people would go ‘what the hell was that? What did he just say?’ ((Have you ever experienced this with C, Jane?)) And it’s when you get those types of clues over time, when you find, he “loves animals” but suddenly the kitten runs in front of him and he ((**))gives it a kick and knocks it against the wall….It’s those kind of contradictions, and right away they’ll bring up the mask…Over time you see contradictions between their character and their moral behavior” Stefan Verstappen ((Albeit it was a puppy - I witnessed someone - a Combo Man (Narc-Sociopathic Psychopath - do this right in front of me (because it nearly got under his feet)...I think he forgot I was there for a second. He too had claimed he adored animals. I was so shocked and appalled, even though he did it more CAREFULLY...SUBTLY than that example, swept/shunted it hard with the side of his foot (or more like, insta-converted what would have been a kick before remembering me)... Poor little thing still careened into the skirting-board, though, but was more shocked than hurt (I went to it, don't worry). And it wasn't even his puppy, he was dog-sitting it for (get this!) his only friends and neighbours. I knew what it made him. Brrrr, don't remind myself! A broken aka malignant psychopath is as extremely bad as a pro-social psychopath or NT with just the right psychopathic traits is extremely good (a diamond...hero), which is why I'm so bloody-mindedly insistent that the differentiating prefix, 'malignant', be included; I can't keep typing it in, though, so bear it in mind reading forward)) How to Properly Vet Someone’s Character Psychopaths and other personality disordered people like borderlines ((don't agree Borderlines belong in the same category - they're curable if you put the effort in and never veer from consistency and predictability with them, which to some therapists comes naturally)) often have an ability to project a charm and charisma which can very easily lure in unsuspecting people. It is very important to be aware of this. Here are some ways to vet a person’s character over time before making a decision on whether they deserve your trust or not: If someone seems to be projecting an extreme sense of charm and charisma, it is important to not be taken in immediately by this and slow down, watching their behavior more carefully over a long period of time. Too many people get sucked into toxic relationships because they are taken in by glib charm and dive straight in without vetting a person’s character over time. ((Leading Early Red Flag - Rushing Intimacy/The Relationship)) Do not be taken in by the idea of “perfection” and “flawlessness” in someone. It doesn’t exist; everyone has flaws and no one is perfect. Be very wary of anyone trying to project an image of perfection, of having it all and being able to do it all, without any downsides, weaknesses, or human frailties. You are likely being sold a lie. Watch carefully and over time for any discrepancies between what a person says and what they do. Watch for a divergence between actions and words. Also watch carefully how someone treats other people in their life ((like their ex-friends or boyfriends!)), even if they may appear to be great with you at first. If you see them mistreating others, it is a red flag. Sooner or later it will be you that is the target. Look for signs of real empathy, conscience and vocation. A psychopath can simulate these things but lacks any kind of depth or substance to these acts. This will show up if you look carefully enough. ((Also, their tone of voice is too flat when describing alleged past traumas to convince you they're a fellow victim or why X isn't their fault but someone/something else's and they can't help it....like lack of boundaries, something a true recent or once-victim would have wasted NO TIME EXTENDING AND FIXING FOR NON-OBVIOUS-BLEEDIN-OBVIOUS REASONS)) Look for other qualities like clarity, maturity, stability, reliability, self control, solid finances((!!...?)) ((EF doesn't have to be rich, just have more money than C)). Honesty and integrity are also two key qualities to look out for, since psychopaths lack both. Can someone be trusted and relied on or is their life a train wreck, bumbling from one day to the next as they lie their way out of the latest mess they have got themselves into. ((Mmmm....yeah, no - in fact, this describes the hot-headed, impulsive N-Spath, not the Cool Cucumber Psycho)) Also if you start seeing red flags, watch out specifically for psychopathic traits as defined in our own checklist or in any of the excellent resources on the topic. As a counterbalance, we should also say that just because someone is charismatic and charming, it does not mean they are a bad person. ((That should have been stated at the top!)) Good people can be naturally charming as well. It just means you need to slow down and watch their character and behavior over time to see whether it’s just part of who they are or part of a front act to lure others in. (('Fools rush in where (hard bsstd) Angels fear to tread', basically))

SLICK! That's the other word I couldn't grasp! Her email...she sounded too damned slick! (LOL, you can tell it's suddenly got cooler here, can't you. I think I'll stick to late-night posting from now on.)

https://narcissisticbehavior.net/building-blocks-of-the-psychopathic-character/ (By Psychotherapist Christine Louis de Canonville) ((one of the original greats)) "However, for the most part, the slicker psychopaths have refined their charm down to an art form, and they pride themselves on their talent of the deception of others. Psychopaths use their glib and superficial charm with the intention of being evasive, deflect emotion, or conceal their lack of emotional depth from others. This psychopathic charm is not in the least shy or self-conscious, which results in the psychopath being unafraid to say anything if it helps their cause. They are articulate conversationalists with the “gift of the gab”, and therefore capable of spinning outrageously witty, convincing stories. They are very amusing, entertaining and believable, not to mention very likable. They go on the “charm offensive” by emphasizing their charisma or trustworthiness and turn on their superficial smile for totally disarming and seducing victims. It is often said that they can beguile even the wariest individuals and trap them in their web of deception Furthermore, pathological narcissists use their charm for getting information. Information is power to the psychopath, so the more they know about you, the more potential they have for gaining power over you. Psychopaths have an extremely low self-consciousness, and it is this “lacking” that sets them free from the normal restraints of social and emotional impediments experienced by the general population. This means that they are more likely to present themselves well; they come across readily comfortable and relaxed when talking with other people, giving them a natural flair for putting others at ease. They typically like to present themselves as experts on many subjects in order to appear very interesting and knowledgeable. However, they are generally not able to take any subject very far, but it does not seem to matter to them if they are found out as a fraud. ((Some, if cornered with no way/explanation out, and you're a bit scary/intimidating yourself (- their "challenge"), will suddenly resort to playing cutesie kid, literally going, Tee-hee-hee from behind a cupped hand!, which is hardly appropriate when, for example, you've found out they spent marital money you don't have on a sportscar.)) They deliver compliments and flattery with confidence, which manages to seduce and win most people over. Even though their tall stories should be unbelievable, somehow, they have a knack of pulling the wool over the eyes of intelligent people who seem to fall for their stories. Another striking feature of psychopaths is that they have low-level feelings of vulnerability, which leads to them becoming somewhat fearless. It is this fearlessness that makes them prone to engage in high risk activities that are a part of Hare’s checklist, such as ((*))conning((*)), crime, drugs, robbing, rape, etc. ((down to mercenary, corporate and/or social-climbing)) The effectiveness of these behaviours has to do with the skills of the psychopath, as well as the ability of the person perceiving the behaviour to recognise deception. But the vast majority of victims fall for the con after they have fallen for the psychopath’s superficial smile. Unfortunately, the psychopath’s charm reflects a devious demeanour that is slick and insincere, giving them an animal magnetism. This is why it is so important for everybody to understand how these individuals operate in public so that we can mount our own defence against their charm, seduction and manipulations."

PS: Christine continues...and backs-up my earlier recommendation that you 'tool up' for next time: "Narcissistic Behavior is on the rise. My aim as a therapist and as a person who has been on the receiving end of Narcissism, is to help as many people I can, understand what narcissism is, what it looks like, why it occurs, the effect it has on the narcissist’s victim and what you can do to protect yourself from these people and go on to have a rewarding, healthy relationship with yourself and the people around you. You will find a long list of articles I’ve written on all aspects of Narcissistic Behavior a little further down the page. My name is Christine Louis de Canonville. I’m an accredited psychotherapist who’s worked with victims of narcissistic abuse for many years, both in my private practice and previously in a post traumatic unit within a Psychiatric Hospital. From the office to the home, narcissists are everywhere; they can be parents, partners, friends, bosses, siblings. No one is safe. This form of abuse goes way beyond physical and psychological injury. It strikes at the very soul of the victim, leaving them wondering whether they are literally going mad. I believe it is imperative for everyone to understand the relationship dynamics that exists between the narcissist and their victims, i.e. their need for entitlement, control, power, grandiosity and specialness. Also, to understand how a narcissist uses seduction and manipulation to “hook” their victims into a dangerous liaison. The information on this website is about different aspects of narcissistic behavior and narcissistic abuse for both victims and psychotherapists alike, and indeed, anybody who wants to know more about the subject. Furthermore, many people who have experienced this form of abuse have left their comments and experiences on the blog to share with others. They, in effect, are the real experts whom we can all learn from." ((Damn right!))

Forgive me if I’m just taking the easy way out, but I still give them the benefit of the doubt. In my head they’re more or less just teenagers who don’t have much conflict resolution skills and just acted in the only way they knew how to, rather than actively trying to cause harm. Im not dismissing all their behaviours though, they’re still people I don’t want to spend time with. I’m assuming C told me to keep away from EF either because EF was stressed/upset or even mad and worried that getting me involved could let to a less than optimal interaction, causing further harm than just one person leaving the group. I’ve seen how C acts with her dog and I don’t think she’d be capable of hurting it. Furthermore, again I might be naive but I’ve heard both of them speak about their low self esteem, confidence etc. I think it just makes them insecure and waver from here to there. If there’s significant reason to worry I’d help EF without hesitating but no one would believe me if I told her this anytime soon. I’d just get ridiculed. She doesn’t want me to talk to her either, I’m still blocked on everything. I’m in this shared environment for another three months or so, and I know EF is planning to move as well so I doubt I’ll have much to do with it unless things proceed quite quickly. I will still answer your questions though, in case there’s a glaringly obvious thing I’ve missed out on: Have you been reading up online about Narcissisms in their various roles yet? not necessarily. I read the links you said to try and piece things together but as they’re people I no longer associate myself with I don’t think of them that much. I see all of my old group together laughing and taking photos, posting online etc. but that’s the extent of my thoughts on them. I ignore them if I cross paths with them though. Have you ever experienced this with C, Jane?) They’re too bubbly (they’re a ditzy person) most of the time so no. The extent is just EF talking about being okay with gore and how she likes the feeling of pain. So just strange masochistic tendencies When they were together,Cwas sweet and affectionate with her BF but not really in the moment or too honest. She celebrates the month-iversaries of their break up. Regarding tone of voice, EF’s voice was flat when she referred to her past with BF. Solely defining it as a ‘negative experience’ (She used to have thus running joke of hating INFPs (BF was an INFP when he took the test to show her), because she’s had negative experiences with INFPs) C’s never spoken about anything too grandiose. The reason I say I think EF is smarter than C is because C would go ‘I want to go into *highly sought after career*’ but imo she doesn’t really have the academics to do it. EF was also interested and encouraged her the most. EF was sometimes laidback about this career and other times panicked about not being able to achieve it because it’s her childhood dream. I couldn’t really figure out where she truly stood with it. Neither of them come across as knowledgeable about a range of academic subjects though I would say. I was generally the smart one in the group (as my mother likes to say, she didn’t think they were ‘intelligent enough’ for me) And how many days/weeks after the email ambushing event did you voice your discomfort about it to C? One or two days. Probably either shortly after EF spoke about it in the group chat or a day/two days after the email when she told us about her friend’s hearing C’s ex’s reaction. I spoke to BF about whether he’s ever noticed anything and gave your examples and he said that yes, as much she’s sweet and bubbly she’s still a meek person and definitely seemed like she was uncomfortable at times or too nervous to speak up. I’m defensive of C as she was the person I felt the most comfortable with when I used to hang out with them. which one is still, and slow in their movements (and less facially and vocally expressive)? Probably EF in general. WHICH ONE IS SEXUALLY PROVOCATIVE? None of them are. They’re not really interested in men or relationships unless they’re fictional or celebrities.

Hey-hey! "Forgive me if I’m just taking the easy way out, but I still give them the benefit of the doubt. In my head they’re more or less just teenagers who don’t have much conflict resolution skills and just acted in the only way they knew how to, rather than actively trying to cause harm. Im not dismissing all their behaviours though, they’re still people I don’t want to spend time with. I’m assuming C told me to keep away from EF either because EF was stressed/upset or even mad and worried that getting me involved could let to a less than optimal interaction, causing further harm than just one person leaving the group." No worries. It's early days. Your mind will process once it feels sure the coast is clear and you're safe to examine your wounds and replay the acquaintanceship tapes so to speak, at your leisure. I might even be in semi-agreement with you where EF is concerned, since she's only a fledgling and her NPD-AsPD could still be reversed/healed by whatever degree. But C....uh-uh. See my next pasted-in article and you'll plainly see that albeit minorly (due to not being her romantic partner, and due to her youth), C's behaviour mirrors Coervice Control...mirrors it EXACTLY. Also remember that if that abusive email hadn't been C's own idea, planted into EF's mind or otherwise, or had gone against her moral grain - NO WAY would she have agreed to messenger you that disgusting, disturbingly jumped-up, ultimatum email. Would you have? And while I'm at it - how come YOU and so many others your age have Conflict Resolution Skills by now? (I think in future when someone says/does something that destabilises you, you're safe to use yourself as your Normal-Healthy(-with-ASD-cherries-on-top) Template and Frame Of Reference, Jane. "Would I...Could I.....Ever-ever?" and if the answer's No - Dump The Dud.) But, even EF... normal near-20-year-olds don't behave the way EF is, with her gobsmackingly lengthy Silent Treatment-ing. June 13th she started it. It's now the 24th July. SIX WEEKS. (I would NOT be surprised if C had convinced EF *you* are the Narc as she kept manipulating you into NOT contacting EF so that it would appear to be YOUR Silent Treatment. If she's a Malignant-Vulnerable, her ego won't be able to tolerate not having the last word. They cannot soothe/discharge ego-'insults' any other way. But if she's let's say Sociopath-IC, she's simply ditched you (with C's help) because you didn't function as the tin-opener she mistook you for.) And this - their being still more IN the long grass than not, i.e. still legitimately in Terrible Teen mode - is how too many of them escape the diagnostic and interventions net, Jane...."Awwww, they're only teenageeers, stiiill...they'll growww out of iiiit...bleeessss". Just keep watching that space and keeping your ear tuned to the grapevine.... time always tells - especially as they've a vacancy for a fan/scapegoat. If not, then,, although you might basically be done with them: since when did a situation of YOUR choosing matter?... What's next on the NPD playlist following the fake/emotionally-blackmailing Discard or final (not!) Discard, is the attempted Hoovering. *************************************************************************************************************************************** Definitely go Google. They may not be done with YOU. "If there’s significant reason to worry I’d help EF without hesitating but no one would believe me if I told her this anytime soon. I’d just get ridiculed. She doesn’t want me to talk to her either, I’m still blocked on everything. I’m in this shared environment for another three months or so, and I know EF is planning to move as well so I doubt I’ll have much to do with it unless things proceed quite quickly." We would have been FAR more subtle than that (I can do slow-burning subliminal, no worries; I've out-Narced countless, all types, including The King/Queen (psycho)), but - Fairenoughski. And at least the info is here IF you need to consult it. (I'm preventative more than curative so I've probably bombarded you, but - no time-pressure whatsoever - read at your leisure or just if/when you next need to). "I will still answer your questions though, in case there’s a glaringly obvious thing I’ve missed out on:" Ta :) It really helps lurker-readers who haven't the confidence to post but whose situation moreover mirrors your own, to see What Happened Next (in case they CAN'T just walk away/escape). HOWEVER...if this is on some level keeping you upset - by ALL MEANS, look away, take a break. I've a real-life, mature woman friend who was treated as you've been by her friends group. Last July. They're still at it (bitch, gossip, emotionally dangerous, (proven) TOTALLY false rumours that her husband's cheating on her.... That's deranged schoolkids with Kalashnikovs for ya. They even traumatise adults) She's MOSTLY over it. Also, *I* am being Silent Treatmented as we speak (do not give one - yawn, but I don't want to hurt them by being the one to end it...mainly because I can't be bothered, LOL, but also because they're mild...just not so much after too many years...it's too obvious they've not emotionally learned or matured for the last decade and keep on-off repeating past offences dressed-up as new things). So is another best friend of mine here - by two so-called best friends (7 and 11 years tenure). Ohh, they're bloody everywhere, coming out of the proverbial woodwork, these days. YA THINK YA KNOW SOMEONE, EH. But anyway...You're the boss of you, Jane. I'm happy to just keep pasting-in forewarning and preparations material 'ahead' by myself. Do (bee-doo) just say. :) Meanwhile, I've included more spacing to hopefully make it easier to read. "Have you ever experienced this with C, Jane?) They’re too bubbly (they’re a ditzy person) most of the time so no. The extent is just EF talking about being okay with gore and how she likes the feeling of pain. So just strange masochistic tendencies" TBH, I'm not so interested in how they present when in company (mask/impressions management) so I'll take that as, No, you haven't experienced it. Strange masochistic tendencies?? Continuing someone else's abuse for them in their heads? "When they were together,Cwas sweet and affectionate with her BF but not really in the moment or too honest." So that's what you meant by easily distracted...Not Quite Present. "She celebrates the month-iversaries of their break up." Yuck. That's bitterness and spite, revenge-discharge-by-proxy........STRANGE for what she alleges was a mutually-agreed break-up, HUH! (TICK!) Peeking on Facebook from time to time, etc., is one thing but - this? Victims don't WANT to keep having their broken heart triggered to that incredible degree and duration, let alone bring it on themselves. She's not broken-hearted, she's just angry with him. Yep, she failed to entrap him, he wrongfooted her by breaking it off. How very dare he! (With Narcs, YOU don't decide if and when the relationship is over. Slaves don't leave. They only get mistreated as per the Master/Mistress's status rights, until they can't or won't take it (or react) any more and then get discarded. As abovementioned: If the victim recovers their energy and functionality in the Discard aftermath, however, and the Narc gets to see/hear about it, and hasn't found a replacement Supply - the Narc will (if you haven't read up and mentally prepared beforehand) Hoover you back into the relationship with them in order to use and abuse you all over again.... *************** https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/202209/7-facts-know-about-narcissistic-hoovering Key points Narcissists often hoover a person to get them to resume contact with them. If you resume contact with a narcissist, your relationship may be just as dysfunctional, if not moreso, than before. Responding to a narcissist's hoover gives them a payoff. When a pathological narcissist is out of your life, they may eventually try to “hoover,” or suck you back into contact with them. Hoovering may be done by emailing, texting, calling, or snail mailing. A narcissist may send you a long email or text “hey.” Hoovering is practiced by a wide range of narcissists—family members, friends, co-workers, employers, former spouses, and significant others. It is usually preluded by the narcissist needing to fill their narcissistic void or a bottomless pit of need—in other words: it’s not about you. Don’t respond to a hoovering attempt. *************** "Regarding tone of voice, EF’s voice was flat when she referred to her past with BF. Solely defining it as a ‘negative experience’ (She used to have thus running joke of hating INFPs (BF was an INFP when he took the test to show her), because she’s had negative experiences with INFPs)" (Well, thank God he didn't help himself to her Barbie-doll or hate the colour Pink, then - all Hell would have broken loose! :p) (PS: Black & White Thinking, anyone?) Flat, which doesn't match the emotional-triggering of the topic and the emotional words spoken - TICK! Thanks. But I've already got EF's number; it's C who concerns me the most. Sorry, I know you like her best but... better emotionally-safe than sorry? I just need to give her a really good frisk while we've 'still got her'. "C’s never spoken about anything too grandiose." Grandiose? Crikey, you're a fast learner? :))) "The reason I say I think EF is smarter than C is because C would go ‘I want to go into *highly sought after career*’ but imo she doesn’t really have the academics to do it." Doesn't have the academics to do it. Wants to be a pop star but can barely sing or play an instrument more complicated than the Marraccas(sp?). Cheers. Self-Aggrandisement. They ALL think they should be king/president/boss/celebrity/whatever VIP, even the Covert Boo-Hoo-ers. The world just doesn't appreciate their genius...their partners and spouses just don't understand them.... I mean - LOOOK, of COURSE they're Special - they can MANIPULAAATE peopllllle! (So can normal people - AND better!...but before our run-in with these bozos we never met a need to!) (Still getting that overlap of Spath AND Psycho symptoms at this point fyi, frustratingly) "EF was also interested and encouraged her the most." Yup, Spaths do that while they're priming (what sometimes they've been fooled into BELIEVING is) their next entrapped Lackey. Cheerleader Extraordinaire....until comes the point when, they 'suddenly' aren't...until the point where, they're 'suddenly' the opposite... You were sooo right to dump them, Jane. Short-term pain for long-term gain. "EF was sometimes laidback about this career and other times panicked about not being able to achieve it because it’s her childhood dream. I couldn’t really figure out where she truly stood with it. Neither of them come across as knowledgeable about a range of academic subjects though I would say. I was generally the smart one in the group (as my mother likes to say, she didn’t think they were ‘intelligent enough’ for me)" Neither are they intelligent enough for any other adults (when not wearaing their At Work mask) who make the mistake of getting closer to them, so your Mum's statement is spot-on (GIVE HER A HIGH FIVE!) but understated! Young Adult (Born aged 30) - Middle or start of Secondary School Playground Bullies/Mean Girls. That's about the size of it. "And how many days/weeks after the email ambushing event did you voice your discomfort about it to C? One or two days. Probably either shortly after EF spoke about it in the group chat or a day/two days after the email when she told us about her friend’s hearing C’s ex’s reaction." EF bragged about her crime (tick!). C has her Flying Monkey ensconced in her ex's camp for passing himself off as his Friend & Confidante for flying back to her with Intel. (TICK!) So...basically 2 months between you lodging your adult reaction and this kicking off. Noted, cheers. "I spoke to BF" (Wish I could. He'll be a MINE of information, he will!) "about whether he’s ever noticed anything and gave your examples and he said that yes, as much she’s sweet and bubbly she’s still a meek person and definitely seemed like she was uncomfortable at times or too nervous to speak up." Remember Spaths use ALL styles, including Covert-Vulnerability - The Pity Ploy. They can be shy/worried one minute (not) and fine the next. Depends on what's needed, what make of plektron twangs that particular victim's heartstrings, traditionally. And remember this is the same person who verbally attacked - unprovoked - a stranger - given the time-lag - out-of-the-Blue. Was THAT shy...meek....uncomfortable... nervous? No. But: "Ooooh, don't question her - you'll upset her even more!" (aim, fire, bullseye). "I’m defensive of C as she was the person I felt the most comfortable with when I used to hang out with them." Oh, good - you are, still - phew! Thought you'd gone into "(Loves Me Not), Loves Me" mode for a minute there! (i.e. "Cognitive Dissonance" - dangerous, can send you insane - google) So, just knackered and overloaded? "which one is still, and slow in their movements (and less facially and vocally expressive)?" Probably EF in general. REALLY?? Covert EF Charming, engaging psycho C (who reveals her true, slick, self-control in emails when done with you) "WHICH ONE IS SEXUALLY PROVOCATIVE? None of them are. They’re not really interested in men or relationships unless they’re fictional or celebrities." So in other words, they're not getting any opportunity to be like that or like anything because they're not getting any flirting opportunities. Okay. The're not Somatics, they're Cerebrals. NOTED. Cheers. :))) Now go and have a snooze or a zone-out. If you like, s/he added swiftly. :)

READ ONLY ((My parentheses)) Remember, you've seen these icebergs but only their tiniest tips. Because they're fledglings (so only pettily nefarious) and/or because you didn't really get close enough (nobody owns an HF Aspie!). One would have to become incarcerated (too scared/undecided to leave) to be bullied behind closed doors without witnesses (= your word against their lie, Plausible Deniability). These are what lays beneath those tiny tips or what they grow into as the feral's body grows. What makes them grow (worse) is, having got away with it (or believing or convincing themselves they did). Each time. https://narcissisticbehavior.net/coercive-control/ (The Incredible Christine again) "The repeated behaviours of coercive abuse are ultimately about owning and controlling the victim, with the express intent to remove their freedom. It has nothing to do with “love”, it is predatory “obsession” which means that it has everything to do with: – • psychological assaults, ((EF suddenly flouncing...with C's "support" - both)) • passive-aggressive insults, (('you're the only healthy one' - both) (t's never a compliment, it's a peck-peck-peck to stop being so + Triangulation-ette)) • ultimatums, (('BF or the group!' - C)) • and a general loss of “liberty” for the victim. ((by logical extension both then and for the future - ditto - C)) However, many victims (whether male or female) who are being ‘entrapped’ are highly unlikely to recognise this cunning covert aggression at the beginning of the relationship. This dynamic is specifically designed to set the victim up for disempowering them.  Gradually, over time, the perpetrator instils fear ((and Walking On Eggshells)) in the victim, causing them to deny their negative emotional responses ((and hide and not dare mention their BF)) , and give the control of the relationship over to them. ((You'll date who WE say you can date!)) The victim, like the proverbial frog in the simmering pot, has no idea that they are being “psychologically boiled alive”. The perpetrator’s nefarious wicket actions are carried out in clever increasing and intensifying increments. This insidious and calculated controlled assault on the victims are often described as “death by a thousand cuts”; For example...((continued on site)" "...Once the narcissistic perpetrator manages to isolate their victim and instil in them a trance of fear, they become much easier to control. In effect, the victim’s sense of personal agency is vanishing little by little, and soon they may even begin to doubt their sanity. This form of intimate terrorism creates a feeling of tyranny and entrapment in the victim. This is the reason why it has become a criminal offence under “coercive control legislation” in intimate or familial relationships in several European countries since 2015. WHAT KIND OF PERSON IS LIKELY TO CARRY OUT COERCIVE CONTROL IN THEIR RELATIONSHIPS? The most likely candidate to be coercively controlling in their relationships is a person with a Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). NPD is one of four recognised Cluster B personality disorders as defined in The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), Narcissism is a spectrum disorder, and we all exist somewhere on the continuum. That means, as humans, we are all narcissistic to some degree, and indeed need to be for remaining healthy. A certain number of narcissistic traits (self-centred characteristics) are required for healthy living and survival, and they also contribute to our confidence, resilience and driving ambition. However, the higher up the spectrum an individual is, the more pathological their self-centeredness becomes.  They then develop deeply ingrained and pervasive patterns of behaviour that become the diagnosable mental illness referred to as narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). Narcissistic Personality Disorder is, therefore, a mental condition in which the individual has an inflated sense of their own importance. Their inflated sense of self-esteem ((or faked due to over-lack of - Covert Vulnerables aka Victim Bullies)) leads them to believe that they are more important than they are; consequently, they develop fantasies of power, wealth and omnipotence. They view themselves as superior beings. Their arrogant, haughty sense of entitlement leads them to think that they are above the normal rules of society, and therefore deserving of special treatment. To support their fragile ego, their lack of empathy for others and their sense of entitlement allows them to act out their callous behaviours and exploit their victims (their narcissistic supply). Because narcissism is a spectrum disorder (from the classical narcissist, malignant narcissist, and psychopath), the higher up the scale, the more dangerous their behaviour becomes. For example, their ego-syntonic sadism makes them predators with a tendency to destroy and dehumanize others, and their lack of conscience (often due to brain damage) can make them potential killers. WOULD IT BE CORRECT TO SAY THAT SOME PERPETRATORS OF COERCIVE CONTROL WOULD HAVE A NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER? The simple answer is “yes”. Many of these individuals will have a pathological narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) that will have gone undiagnosed.  The criteria for diagnosing an individual with NPD show a pattern of behaviour that can be found also in those individuals who carry out coercive control against their victims. Often narcissism, with its psychological abuse patterns (i.e. its blend of ambient abuse behaviours for instilling fear in the victim, and coercive control behaviour for getting dominance in the relationship) can be found in perpetrators of intimate partner violence (IPV). A lot of the time, the perpetrator’s means of controlling the victim can even look like affectionate expressions, for example, “I am only hard on you because I love you” sounds a bit reminiscent of C's email attitude and tone, doesn't it)).  However, the terror they incite is unintelligible to the victim ((YUP!!)), and cleverly leads to their being in a dominant-subordinate relationship. All too often, NPD, anti-social behaviour and coercive control go hand in hand with each other. Narcissistic Personality Disorder is not as rare as one may think. I would make a conservative estimate and say that it affects about 10% of the general population (psychopaths being between 1% to 2% of that population), although other researchers would say it is much more prevalent." ****************************************************************************************************************************** Me again: "All too often, NPD, anti-social behaviour and coercive control go hand in hand with each other. " In my experience, anti-social is less common with Malignant Covert/Covert-Vulnerable Cerebrals. They care too damned much about their perfect false persona's reputation and likeability to do anything ABOVE the table that you could blow the public whistle on.... and is why they're constantly so subtle and soooo self-controlled. ((With the Spath, it's more about credibility, for duping/conning purposes)). Covert Cerebrals and malig. Psychopaths, are the only two types that can behave long-term like a normal friend....lover....spouse.... for DECADES before "SUDDENLY" betraying and head-ucking the uck out of you as they rip off the mask , very rapidly or IN ONE SWOOP ("Boo!" / "Who the uck are you and what have you done with my nice..lovely friend/sibling/spouse/*boss!" (now THERE'S Incarceration for ya, that last one!) Invasion of the Body-Snatchers, I call it. Laters!