Mother in law anxiety

I’m confused. I don’t know what’s real or in my head. I’m realising so much recently. I used to think my anxieties were my issues but I’m finally thinking actually , my anxiety is only about one person , no one else , maybe she has made me this way. I’d really appreciate advice, opinions. This goes back years and years. My children are grown up now and ive had anxiety regarding my mother in law all their life’s. I’m so confused because of how lovely caring etc etc she can be. But think perhaps conditional and comments , digs , judginess , funniness , over the years has lead to my state. Since Lock down we haven’t seen them quite as much. It eased off and this a long with self progression I think I’m becoming more aware. Considering this is a person you’d meet and think is lovely. I’d like to give examples for opinions please. Always ready with opinions judgment , Csn be so nasty if feels wronged or people haven’t met her demands that leave her feel wounded. I dared to be say my children were going out with friends on actual birthday but would see them a few hours in the morning. I get “ well I can’t do the morning. Followed by a phone call to my husband saying how we had hurt them and would take time to forgive. We went away with them for a night . My eldest stayed home and my own mum brought her tea. His mum found out when we returned , text me saying I know your mum had tea with Molly and it’s strange you never Told me. Numerous numerous things over the years. So il move to recently , we were on a day out. I walked over to my eldest to let her know where the rest of us would be when her and her bf had finished dinner so knew where to meet us. MIL bee lined me , annoyed saying I already told her where we would be. You didn’t need to. I was talking to MIL In my kitchen , annoyed me over something so I went talking to FIL Iin living room. She came in saying where did you go , aren’t you unsociable. I spoke about my steps count on a walk. she said oh that again ! your obsessed. chilrem werw little and they asked me for something, she ssid csmt they get them instead of you running after them like a fool. on my phone- oh on phome again. offer some of my tea for my child to try, and i get eat youe own tea etc. a recemt fall out coz my husband said something about how she was with daughters bf, small comment. Resulted in her refusing to speak to us. Saying how much we hurt her. All the things they always done for us. And total denying. Thanks so much in advance I want out. I don’t want her in my life

Hi Lisa! Please bear with us for a bit longer and someone will say Hi or respond anon. If not - I will. Hang tight, and keep your Alerts turned on.

Hi again! "I’m confused. I don’t know what’s real or in my head." Well, I already know what THAT usually means, but... "I’m realising so much recently. I used to think my anxieties were my issues but I’m finally thinking actually , my anxiety is only about one person , no one else , maybe she has made me this way." Already, doesn't sound like a case of 'maybe', does it. Especially as in you're confident in your title. "This goes back years and years. My children are grown up now and ive had anxiety regarding my mother in law all their life’s. I’m so confused because of how lovely caring etc etc she can be." Google 'NPD: Jeckyll & Hyde'. If they weren't charming/lovely here and there, it wouldn't be hard to dump them, now, would it. Google Narcissistic Cycle Of Abuse' and 'Narcissistic Mother-In-Law". "But think perhaps conditional and comments , digs , judginess , funniness , over the years has lead to my state."" Yup! Google "Covert Narcissist - Death by a Thousand Papercuts. Frisk her with this for now ((my asterisks and my comments in double-brackets)), which then deals with how to set Boundaries with her, etc., etc.: ___________________________________________________________________________________ https://www.verywellmind.com/how-to-deal-with-a-narcissistic-mother-in-law-8364613 "Got a Narcissistic Mother-in-Law? Here's How to Maintain Your Boundaries" Protect your family dynamics and ***your mental sanity*** By Wendy Rose Gould Published on March 14, 2024 Reviewed by Yolanda Renteria, LPC "In-law family dynamics are understandably complicated because you’re merging two very distinct approaches to life. However, having to deal with a narcissistic mother-in-law introduces a new dimension of complications that can quickly become ***exhausting*** for everyone involved. ((The more severe they are, the more and less 'surface' the damage.)) While narcissistic personality disorder is a formal diagnosis ((but easy to identify, plus it usually is the family that does that; the psychiatrist either disproves or confirms it)), the nature of the disorder often means that it goes undiagnosed.1 This is because many narcissists do not fully grasp the problem with their behaviors or character. ((Or they do but fail to give a shite, all the way to, enjoy it and the feeling of power over you.)) That said, a diagnosis is not always necessary in order to identify whether someone is a narcissist, notes therapist Natalie Jambazian, LMFT, who specializes in narcissist abuse recovery. ((True. A bullet-hole is still a bullet-hole ((or whole series...a pattern of 'shootings')), regardless of whether the shooter realised what they were doing or not.)) She adds that since narcissism falls under a wide spectrum, it’s also possible for someone not to have a full diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder even if they exhibit some narcissistic traits. The person on the receiving end of this behavior, then, can look for defining traits of a narcissist. There are key signs and characteristics that you are dealing with a narcissist, including an absence of remorse, lack of guilt or empathy, or a lack of accountability or responsibility. — NATALIE JAMBAZIAN, LMFT “They may also project their insecurities onto others, victimize themselves, and blame others. They often are selfish and exhibit controlling behaviors," Jambazian says. ((Link to)) How to Spot a Narcissistic Sociopath Traits of a Narcissistic Mother-in-Law Generally speaking, narcissists are very inwardly focused, which is often at the expense of others. Therapist Leanna Stockard, LMFT, says this can present as avoiding blame, neglecting personal responsibility, acting selfishly, utilizing manipulative tactics to get their way, and being unable to see another’s perspective. ((They make it sound so benign and petty, don't they? It's Hell On A Stick!)) The official diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5-TR) includes exaggerated feelings of self-importance, an excessive need for admiration, a delusional sense of self, diminished ability or unwillingness to empathize with others’ feelings, interpersonally exploitative behavior.2 Specifically, some traits or behaviors you might see in a narcissistic mother-in-law may include: Initially charming and charismatic to gain approval Exhibits jealous behavior, especially regarding their child’s relationship with their life partner Won’t take responsibility for behaviors or harm they’ve caused in the past or recently Becomes aggressive or hostile if things don’t go her way or may rely on “guilt-tripping” to get her way Oversteps clearly defined (or generally accepted) personal boundaries Inserts herself into her children’s lives and their relationships Uses triangulation, where they create conflicts and competition between family members Doesn’t inquire (or seem to care) about her child’s feelings or experiences and may even dismiss them outright Won’t commit to events and/or tries to control big plans Seeks revenge or holds deep grudges Demands appreciation, praise, and attention to the point of exhaustion The Impact of a Narcissistic Mother-in-Law on Family Dynamics “Dealing with a narcissistic mother-in-law can cause immense stress and recurring arguments in a romantic relationship. They are often insecure and jealous, and for this reason, will create conflict between you and your partner by criticizing you, spreading false narratives, and undermining the relationship,” Stockard explains. She adds that narcissistic mother-in-laws also have no sense of boundaries, and therefore violate boundaries on your personal space, decisions, and parenting styles. They are also skilled manipulators and may use guilt, fear, or emotional blackmail to maintain control in a situation or dynamic. (("I spent ALL AFTERNOON ((2 or so hours)) looking after him/her for you, and all you can do is have a right go at me, just for giving him/her a few little Fairy Cakes!...boo-hoo, you're so meeean to meeee....", conveniently 'forgetting' the fact your kid's allergic to Gluten - that sort of guilting, and adding, 'Maybe I just shouldn't babysit him/her any more if THAT'S how you feel about me, sniffle-sniffle' (translation: let me do what I damn please or the support 'gets it'!)...that sort of fear and emotional blackmail, for instance (AAAAAACHCHCHCHCHCHHHH!) (just clearing the bile from my throat).)) “This can be emotionally and psychologically exhausting, ((UNDERSTATEMENT!)) especially if your partner is in denial of their mother’s toxic traits,” Stockard says. ((I haven't read that far yet, but I'm betting he doesn't or, if he does, she just ignores him and "presses the reset button" on you both.)) “Having to constantly prove yourself, feeling anxious, or not knowing what to expect from your mother-in-law can be damaging to your mental health.” ((AS YOU HAVE DISCOVERED.)) What complicates things further, sometimes, is that narcissistic mother-in-laws are somewhat unpredictable and can be very good at disguising some of their toxic traits when around others. They may show a completely different image of themselves outside versus inside of their family dynamics, which can feel very confusing and frustrating." ___________________________________________________________________________________ Also - this: https://wellbeingscounselling.ca/the-relationship-impacts-of-dealing-with-a-covert-narcissist/ "The Relationship Impacts of Dealing With a Covert Narcissist" Pareen Sehat MC, RCC August 30, 2023 "Ever feel drained after spending time with a particular “high-maintenance” friend or family member? Do your romantic relationships start golden, then slowly turn dysfunctional? You may be dealing with a covert narcissist. Unlike overt narcissists, covert narcissists fly under the radar with manipulation and entitlement. But don’t be fooled – their toll on relationships and mental health is just as severe. In this article, we’ll explore how covert narcissism poisons relationships with: Romantic partners – Push-pull dynamics strain even the strongest bonds over time. Family members – Positions as loved ones provide cover for guilt-tripping and control. Friends – Jealousy and bitterness lurk below the surface of unstable friendships. Coworkers – Undermining, envy, and passive aggression disrupt work life. Arm yourself with knowledge of their relationship impacts before a covert narcissist extinguishes your spirit. Forewarned is forearmed against their mind games!.....((continues)) ___________________________________________________________________________________ Pre-S: This is why, all the past, Mother-In-Law jokes. Only, it's NOT mother-in-laws. It's Narcs in that role (diff, all the diff). Back to your opening post: "Since Lock down we haven’t seen them quite as much. It eased off and this a long with self progression I think I’m becoming more aware." Yes, the rest basically gives you the room and space to detach from her and the situation enough to start reflecting, joining dots (this time, logical, not her (google) Word Salad nonsense), realising and gaining clarity. Basically - it's because she wasn't getting to keep piling more, hard-to-understand, 'A4 sheets' into your 'Psycho-emotional In-Tray. Every time she acts up, she increasingly buries the last/more major transgression further down the enormous, YEARS-LONG(!) pile (because we tend to take from the top and forget/are too preoccupied to remember we have a Pending Tray). Also, the Sweet Times work like Heroin and get you addicted. So you got given the opportunity to 'work down' far enough because you weren't 'woozy'. This happened the world-over during Lockdown - victims 'waking up'. "Considering this is a person you’d meet and think is lovely. I’d like to give examples for opinions please." Absolutely! (PS: Not me, though. Their 'lovely' has its own vibration (as does Truth) once you're really well-versed in it all.) "Always ready with opinions judgment , Csn be so nasty if feels wronged or people haven’t met her demands that leave her feel wounded." TICK, TICK, TICK, TICK! "I dared to be say my children were going out with friends on actual birthday but would see them a few hours in the morning. I get “ well I can’t do the morning. Followed by a phone call to my husband saying how we had hurt them and would take time to forgive." (Oh ffs, don't remind me, lol.) TICK! ((SHOULDA LEFT THE MORNING FREE AS WELL, JUST IN-CASE, THEN, WHEN IT'S BIRTHDAY DAY, 'SUPER-GRAN'!... DUUUUUH? - said to her, of course.)) "We went away with them for a night ." Good GOD - what are ya - Masochists?! "My eldest stayed home and my own mum brought her tea." Phew! "His mum found out when we returned , text me saying I know your mum had tea with Molly and it’s strange you never Told me." ((AWW, F**K-OFF, MRS NO-SKINNED PARANOIAC!)) ((sorry - musn't be kept in, not good for ya)) In future, try just saying: 'Come on, don't be so silly. If you're going to be silly I'll talk to you when you're in a better mood - bye!' (click, brrrr...) After all...You've got YOUR mum. You don't need MIL at all, do you. She needs YOU. YOU'VE got the power. And she knows it. *THAT'S WHY*. Anyway: The boo-hoos when it's YOU who should be crying, is a sign of a Covert Vulnerable Narc or 'Allvert' (Narc-Sociopath) merely in Covert (grooming) stage. "Numerous numerous things over the years." I can imagine. "So il move to recently , we were on a day out. I walked over to my eldest to let her know where the rest of us would be when her and her bf had finished dinner so knew where to meet us. MIL bee lined me , annoyed saying I already told her where we would be. You didn’t need to." WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!?!? Seriously - WHAT? She just finds ANY excuse to have a pop, doesn't she! Oh, she's horrid, ew... She's a self-victimising/victim-cloak-stealing BULLY is what she is! "I was talking to MIL In my kitchen , annoyed me over something so I went talking to FIL Iin living room. She came in saying where did you go , aren’t you unsociable." (Future answer: Nose aloft, looking at her out of the very corner of your eye, but visibly: 'Not normally'. Says it all, eh?) "I spoke about my steps count on a walk. she said oh that again ! your obsessed." No - SHE is. Google "NPD Projection". THIS WOMAN IS INCREDIBLY ANTAGONISTIC. (It used to be called Antagonistic Personality Disorder, in fact...suited it better if you ask me.) "chilrem werw little and they asked me for something, she ssid csmt they get them instead of you running after them like a fool." (Future answer: You think mothering duties are foolish?! CRIKEY....alrighty then... (change subject).) "on my phone- oh on phome again." Huh? "offer some of my tea for my child to try, and i get eat youe own tea etc." WOAH. She's a Sociopath: She's Power Crazy! So jumped-up domineering it's unbelievable! FULL-BLOWN DOMINATOR ALERT!!! (Ew, your poor husband.) (Ew, her poor husband!...he's had it for even longer than yours! Is he still alive? If so - HOW!) "a recemt fall out coz my husband said something about how she was with daughters bf, small comment." Que? "Resulted in her refusing to speak to us." Google: Narcissistic Sociopath - The Silent Treatment. "...Saying how much we hurt her." Her, Her, Her, Her, HER....world bloody revolves around her, she thinks. "All the things they always done for us." ((Yeah? We've given you X Grandkids - WE WIN!)) "And total denying." Google: Covert Narcissist - Gaslighting - 'Denying that the Sky is Blue' (or some such). "Thanks so much in advance" PHOOOOO! - do WHAT? You're utterly-butterly WELCOME! "I want out. I don’t want her in my life" ME NEITHER AND I HAVEN'T EVEN MET THE GIANT BITCH-COW-HEADACHE-FROM-HELL. She is actually so bad she's Antisocial. Think about it. It's true, isn't it? For you, anyway. More than obnoxious and constantly in your face. *Antisocial*. Yep - Narc-Spath. YOUR POOR HUSBAND. I'll bet he had all the 'sticking-up for himself' positively pelted out of him! Doubt you'll get much help from him. Oh wait - oh look - you HAVEN'T. Hence came here. (Actions-actions.) Well - well done! Take a seat, RSvP, and make yourself comfy (if you want?). And thanks again for your gentle patience. :) But then, I appreciate that you've had it veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery stretched, LOL(-sob). At least that's one (albeit, inadvertent) up-side, eh. I'm pretty sure I'd have punched her by now. Haha. ...Well, verbally anyway. (Want bitching-back lessons?) Actually - correction - punched her BACK. Mustn't forget the back. We're not the ones that start it every time, eh. PS: Paste in all the checklists and individual symptoms I've typed, with your own Ticks. You need to do it for you, to re-activate the correct neural pathways and then review the tapes and recategorize any incidents you weren't too sure about, and to get rid of that idea that she has a nice SIDE. She has a Nice act, to damage-limit or -reverse, get her way by switching to it from Beelzebub's Sister, or because she's in a phase of getting her own way.

(PS: That list forgot: Ruins Special Occasions - go google)

Thank you soooooo much. Absolutely brilliant and extremely helpful. Wonderful clever information and advice. Thank you 🙏 I think you asked for examples of it being confusing because she can be nice. She can feel sorry for people. Eg- she was im hospital poorly but was struggling around to help someone in pain. She doesn’t agree with horse racing due to horses getting hurt. Very sensitive to children being upset Feels bad for people that someone has wronged. Not us though right now because she thinks we have gone against her. So will want to hurt us with her words.

Does this mean she could stlll be narcissistic? Thank you ☺️

Heyagain! Be with you at some point today - unless the Spanish heat half-kills me, then it'll be tomorrow. But it's never a case of If with me, just When. :) PS: Haven't peeked so feel free to amble down Memory Lane for more examples, as well as go into more details. Not that I need more, but it's good for you to see everything written-down, 'together' in one place. Laters Incrediblypatientzenbuddistgater! PS: You're squeaky-clean and straight as a die, you are. That's why she has to make stuff up and make mountains out of atomic-sized molehills. She wouldn't have anything to throw at you otherwise. Example: my ex spent an hour (which I didn't mind because I was secretly recording it all and taking notes), attempting to have a go at me because (wait....you'll love this), my having proven that I was NOT cheating on him (which was Projection on his part, he knew darn well I'd never lower myself like that) - even though I hadn't, I COULD....IN THE FUTURE. I kept him on the phone for 2 whole hours longer than he'd intended or wanted, heheheheh. Including insisting - 'Yeah, but...what do you MEAN? I don't get it? Try explaining it another way............That's not another way, that's the same way just shuffled around a bit! Think of an analogy?....No? ....Got a plane to catch, have you?...This conversation NOT actually - how did you put it - important to you? Come on, Mr Brainiac, you can do it?! .............YEEEAAAAH...cos you know I'm right!' (Red Rag to a Bull(y) - cue another hour hahahahahahaHA!). You can have GREAT FUN with them, you know? Pff...didn't tell her your mother gave your eldest her Tea. What's it beeping got to do with her!? Next time: "I sent you a carrier-pigeon - didn't you get it?" - and when she says something along the lines of, stop being stupid/whatever: "Well, YOU started it?!" or "I'll stop when YOU stop". Out-Narc The Narc: Take the piss, verbally (and/or in actions) and when she rears up, do what they do: "Awwww, it was just a JOKE? Where's your famous sense-of-humour". The 'famous' bit is obviously ollocks but it's YOUR variety of emotional (counter-)manipulation: a tiny little choccie drop for the rabid, over-ego-needy choccie-drop-addict. Mutineering your time and attention by negatively acting-up isn't as big a choccie-drop as positive, but will do. ....Well, anyway, we'll get to that anon... Interim Extra Question: What does your husband think and say? Does he realise how atrocious she is or has he long become numbed, or immune, to it? Or just defers to you?

Just realised you're waiting for ME! Shite - sorry!.. "Thank you soooooo much. Absolutely brilliant and extremely helpful. Wonderful clever information and advice. Thank you 🙏" Ahhhh... :) You're welcome. "I think you asked for examples of it being confusing because she can be nice. She can feel sorry for people. Eg- she was im hospital poorly but was struggling around to help someone in pain." Is it always in that Burning Martyr way? "She doesn’t agree with horse racing due to horses getting hurt." Question her next time on all the ways horses can get hurt, and get her to go into detail. Also, isn't that a coinkydinky since it was a hot news topic 'recently' - Grand National et al (so you're in UK, are you?) "Very sensitive to children being upset" In what way in what situations and scenarios? Can I have one or more examples, please? "Feels bad for people that someone has wronged. Not us though right now because she thinks we have gone against her. So will want to hurt us with her words." That side of the overall package is 'plain Narcissism'. They expect Unconditional Love from YOU (which is only possible between parent and child ANYWAY), but theirs is WHOLLY conditonal. Cares so much about the 4-legged variety yet - as you point out - not the 2-legged. Even when they're directly related. Empathy works everywhere/towards everything. It doesn't pick and choose. Still, it gives you a pre-prepared, cut-her-shut-her-upper for next time: 'Would you like me more if my name was Dobbin?'. That comes into "Narcissist - Gross Hypocrisy". So - in answer to your question: If you google 'signs of Narcissistic mother-in-law' you'll see you've been describing nothing but a Narc (in the MIL role). Degree is the only thing we've yet to establish.... Hence my questions. Roger! - Over? :)

Hi Sorry I’m so late getting back you. That’s brilliant how you outsmarted your ex. It’s inspiring to read. I sat here thinking instead of being filled with anxiety and other negative emotions you must have just kept getting stronger. Winning ! Hope you have enjoyed the Spanish heat ! Sounds so lovely to be Spain to me right now ! You asked for some examples I’m struggling now. It’s so true what you’re saying it’s completely conditional! When she feels loved by her grandchildren, therefore she’s happy , and absolutely full of herself, then yeah she’d be the caring nana that’s upset at the thought of them being upset ( if they were upset for any reason ). If she can relate I suppose. If she could for example imagine how she would feel if she was away alone at uni ( for example ) But also I feel that the over concern helps her manipulate people in to feeling like she should be updated on everything. She’s the type that would say ( and to be fare genuinely say ) I can’t bear children or animals being mistreated. But I suppose that doesn’t make her something special. I’m seeing more and more now, what a narc she is and a lot of it is thanks to everything you have explained. My husband like his siblings perhaps are brain washed. When they know she’s happy with them They are ok ! In theory with this situation now he knows we have done nothing wrong. But emotionally, I think him along with his siblings fall victim to the bad person feeling from this kind of punishment she dished out. Ie- her convincing she is the victim but words like It’s disgusting how you have treated us. I’m so hurt my you I won’t get over this Because my daughter said to her “ you have made my mum uncomfortable for years making her feel judged over thing. To which she replied so your mum has been calling me for years ? My daughter said no ! We got to an age where we could see it. She can not bare this ! I don’t think she’s ever had the grandchildren pull her on her wrongs. This is something she can not cope with ! She has to be the best nana. Therefore she is now saying I have slagged her off for years and turned her grandchildren against her. She’s choosing to go with that. My kids n husband knows this is not true. They told her as much , but nope , made her mind uo. So she’s completely not talking to any of us now. She would sit there saying “ I’m not contacting them. They can contact me. She would prob say things like they’ll need me before I need them. I don’t want my husband to lose his relationship with his parents if he doesn’t want that. But me , I feel so free. Since accepting things are not good I have so many memories of instances that are so annoying and considering I’m sentimental I have no sentimental feelings about any times that were fine or good. I don’t want a relationship with her. I don’t want her in my life at all. Is it bad for me to completely never speak or see her again. ? I’m thinking am I really able to have that privilege. She’s exhausting. I’ve done nothing so refuse to be dragged through a big drama in sorting it out. After 30 years ! Can I just walk away from her. I met her when I was 18. Having said that she’s completely fell out with me. Never has she completely ignored my birthday before which she has, and so had her husband and son. It’s almost hilarious, they know me ! And are actually pretending to believe I’m this evil daughter in law ! Conveniently forgetting I’m not

Ps. Her daughter, who has had the worst of her, over the years which is another story ( basically she had an affair) which she loves to announce she is so against because of what it does to people. She then hated her daughter’s partner ( one coz she’d a woman ) and it triggered when the new partner moved in with her daughter and grandchildren. She hated with such angor and rage the thought of her close to her daughter and grandkid. She refused to go to the wedding. Over the years she finally forgave her daughter. Which involves her daughter speaking on the phone to her every day , but living separate lives. Except the odd visit without the partner. But yeah this daughter is not in contact with us. But despite this fall out with us and her mum. She was the only one to not ignore my birthday. She actually sent cards to a lovely sister in law. And to a lovely auntie

I have to add , thank you so much for what you do here. You must stop so much despair for people. People get peace from being able to talk and not being alone. You must be doing so much more for people than could ever imagine.

Also to add examples She said do you do washing ? I answered in a tone as if to say what an obscure question I said course I do ? She said oh it’s just when I speak to Mike on a Sunday ( my husband). He will say I’m gonna get some washing out. I sarcastically said god forbid a man do a women’s job ! It was a dig from her.

(Blush-blush) You're a total sweetie, aren't you. You any good at being sassy and coming out with cut-you-down comments? If not, you need literally to start practising (try watching bitchy stand-up comedians like Jo Brand, Julian Clary, Rita Rudner, Joan Rivers (not really up-to-date with the modern-day ones but I doubt they're as cutting), and then - although she'll still be high-maintenance - she'll be licky-licky putty in your hands. Being a Slave is their past/childhood position but still a comfort-zone...that and Master. (It's Equality they can't do.) Sooo easy to get them rolling over. Just hard work to keep them there. But your husband's going to have to be *seen* to support you. Re the Sister-in-Law (SIL) - sounds like she's reaching out. GO FOR IT. Her AND her female partner! Invite them over for a Sunday lunch or something. (Just them.) Birds of a feather should stick together (especially with that woman-thingy around!). If she gets wind of it - that should make her head explode nicely. They hate not being "the spider in the centre of the web", hence, hate partners who can give their victims eye-opening, TRUE feedback and undo the brainwashing. As for you - it's all very well and wonderful that you are such a sweet, kind, patient, sensitive understanding type (- signs of higher intelligence btw) (up Narcs bums!) - because the world wouldn't work otherwise and we'd all die out very quickly - but - that makes it even MORE imperative that you have the Ninja tools and weapons in your belt so as to pose as your own bodyguard. Because obviously, having those Super-Empath qualities makes you the tastiest Narc Num-Nums there is (giant, 'subtly-insane' Take-Takers need giant, overtly sane, Give-Givers, 'innit'). When I say 'giant', however - she doesn't seem to actually DO anything, just verbally abusive and Silent Treatmenting (Without A Cause), so I think she's 'merely' a Classic aka Benign (- hah!) Narc, who's simply been allowed to get away with being the over-domineering Matriarch for too long (no help as in assistance, just total takeover attempts). She must need a rest by now.....UNDER YOUR THUMB. It's kick-yerself simple, you know. The trick is, you DO engage every time but come out with something that stops her short and fuddles HER brain, whereby she just stands there making dying-fish mouth movements and no sound (haha - bliss) because no comeback is possible. You just cut her down every time. If the negative choccie drops turn into shards of glass then all that'll be left to her are WHAT NOW? Positive ones. Commence arse-licking from her for as long as you can keep that New You up. Whatever you do, you just have to do properly, standing firm (watch Jo Frost Supernanny's toddler- and middle-school-brat-training). So your menu choices ARE: 1. Ignore properly - hold out for an apology and promise to do better or NO DICE - lose your grandkids (because Toxic personalities aren't good for their still-developing brains, duh) 2. Engage properly (dominate the uck out of her). My past prob was the Father-In-Law (likewise benign). He talked to me like I was dirt and I'd had had enough of having enough so likewise booted etiquette to the kerb and delivered an almighty lecture for about what felt like an hour (haha!) and - GUESS WHO WAS MY BESTEST FRIEND FOREVER AFTER? (Didn't dare cross me again, more like. All I had to do was say, 'Don't start!'. He was NOT used to that.) Same thing happened in the workplace with the long-term office she-bully. It's happened with all of them whom I haven't been capable of just Walking Away from at the time. Bullies are cowards, let's never forget that. They'll only pick on those they think aren't equipped to stand up to them nor for themselves (down, over-loaded, distracted, post-traumatised, weakened by the constant harrassment known as Love-Bombing...). They try it on with everyone they think will let them get away with it. So don't. And don't let them try to blame-shift or re-write the narrative, either. (Keeping a diary is handy for that.) At the same time - (you AND hubby - HIM LEADING (it's his pigging mother, his problem, your SUPPORT) - try to get her focused on something else to make up for the loss of 'power status' (bit like taking your TV remote off your toddler by flashing your keys in their face - NEW shiny object - drop-GRAB!). A project. Charity, preferably....hospital visiting since she enjoys it so much? Or she could start organising a Santa sack for her nearest battered women/men's refuges (for the kids?). Basically, mentally and emotionally, the woman is actually a stunted kid in a grown-up's suit, and thinking and behaving accordingly...certainly over the slightest arousal (paper-thin-skinned yet insensitive to others). ___________________________________________________________________ Here - about the Narc's closed-circuit comms web - read this ((my comments in double brackets)): https://narcissisticandemotionalabuse.co.uk/the-spidercist/ "The ‘Spider’s Web’" August 6, 2016 admin Written by Steven McCrea "In nature, the spider is almost the craftiest of them all, for it will seek out a path well travelled to lay a trap for its unsuspecting victim. Spinning a web of the finest thread, the spider awaits prey to fly around the corner, so oblivious to the web’s silk which is so fine that it can almost be invisible. As prey hits the web, the spider feels vibrations of movement and rushes out toward its prey, injecting a paralysing venom ((Narcs shock you into mental paralysis which renders you incapable of thinking straight)) to halt the new victim’s efforts of escape before slowly wrapping it in a cocoon of silk ((the post-stabbing, "Word Salad" of attempted fake excuses and justifications where there never are any when it comes to behaviour that atrociously childish and mean/petty-minded. Face it - she's still acting like a School Playground Mean Girl yet thinks she's being perfectly reasonable and within rights (gag))). The once easily recognisable creature now looks a far cry from its once proud self. For any nature enthusiast who ever looks closely at a spider’s web, many of the prey are indistguishable from one another once they’ve been wrapped by the spider, yet they could be vastly different creatures. The spider in some ways is a good analogy of a narcissist ((capital N for diagnosable)). Unwittingly, the victim comes into contact with the web of a narcissist, which like long tendrils can hamper your attempts to escape. Once the narcissist knows you are stuck in their web, they quickly and proficiently inject you with some of their poison to make you feel there is no way out. And to make matters worse, you become part of that web as the spider wraps you in silk to ensure your captivity. The problem is however, that a web can only support so much weight, and, like a narcissist, a spider can become greedy and use its web to engulf as many people into their world of deceit that the foundations begin to stretch. The spider tries to keep tabs on everything in the web, but sometimes there is just too much going on that the spider will begin to make errors. Errors such as letting their true nature show; having a web too big that they just can’t control it anymore. ((NOTE)) But sometimes it just takes the smallest outside influence like a gust of wind to come along and tear down everything the narcissist has tried to create. The web of deceit slowly stretches and falls apart. Some of the victims have been encased for so long that escape seems almost impossible whilst others have only just touched the web that escape is so close on the horizon. But webs are sticky. Sometimes trying to muster enough strength to break free is near unreachable. ((Ollocks. You just need to have (narc-victim version) 'HAD ENOUGH OF HAVING HAD ENOUGH!')) Some victims may escape the web only to get stuck on another thread of silk. But for those at the centre of the web, there are many threads to cross and therefore many chances to become stuck. The point of this analogy is, if you have found yourself caught in that web, it won’t be a downhill ride to freedom, it’ll be an uphill struggle to shake free of your bonds. And even then, there’s every chance you’ll stumble along the way and find yourself stuck in another trap. Never lose faith in your ability to escape, for once that is gone, all that is left is the ever consuming deceit of the narcissist, and if you’re not careful and hasty, the narcissist might shackle you in their cocoon. As each layer of silk is wrapped around you, the light of the world around you and the freedom it represents grows ever more dark until you’re left on your own, in the encompassing black of darkness." From the same site, under, What is Narcissism: "Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a pattern of deviant behaviour which is abnormal ((tick!)) and considered unacceptable by society in general ((tick!)). People with NPD often come across as arrogant ((tick!)) and conceited ((tick!)) with a tendency to look down on others who they perceive as inferior ((basically everyone - TICK!)). A narcissist often displays a sense of entitlement ((MEGA-TICK!)) demanding admiration ((ditto)) and special treatment ((ditto). When they don’t receive such treatment, they may become impatient and angry ((ditto)). Underneath the narcissist’s outward portrayal of confidence and superiority, there are often deep seated insecurities and self loathing ((CLEARLY!)) where they know that they don’t quite match up to that image of perfection. As a result, they will not respond well to any perceived criticism and often react with rage. ((tick!)) Narcissists are renowned for having problematic relationships. ((Tick!)) ((was nice of your husband to have warned you, eh :p)) Their main focus is on themselves, their wants and their needs. ((tick, tick!)) They are self centred and egotistical and like to be the focus of attention ((tick-tick-tick!)). The needs of those around them are not really their concern. ((mega-tick!)) The narcissist often appears to be charming to those who don’t really know them and by that I mean, those who don’t live with them, work with them or have known them for a relatively short period of time. ((tick!)) The longer you know a narcissist, the more apparent their unacceptable behaviour becomes. ((tick! - normal relationships improve with age; it's the reverse with actual NPDs)). They will ignore, denigrate and slander others in order to boost their own position and boost their insatiable ego. ((tick, tick, tick, tick, tick!)) A very common trait of the narcissist is a complete lack of empathy. ((tick!)) They either cannot or will not put themselves in someone else’s shoes or try to understand someone else’s pain or distress. ((tick!)) ((Is there anything I HAVEN'T ticked yet?!)) They use people for their own ends ((tick!)), to get what they want, when they want with no regard for anyone else’s feelings ((tick!)) or who gets hurt in the process. ((Actually, the latter is the giant Narc - the Narcissistic Sociopath ((she'd have 'borrowed' and wheedled money and material things out of you otherwise)). The Benign CAN be given a stern talking-to and told they're on probation if they aren't seen to make any effort to make themselves far less of a whacko-a'hole...which sounds a lot like Whack-A.Mole - which this tantamountedly is!)) Their envy speaks for itself. They don’t like to see others who are more popular, doing better, making more money or being happier than they are themselves. Their envy often results in a smear campaign where the narcissist will lie and gossip in an effort to destroy the other person’s reputation. The Mayo Clinic (Nov, 2014) states that ‘Many experts use the criteria in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), published by the American Psychiatric Association, to diagnose mental conditions. This manual is also used by insurance companies to reimburse for treatment.DSM-5 criteria for narcissistic personality disorder include these features:" ((continues)) ___________________________________________________________________ Guess who's more popular with the family than she's tried to force and coerce out of them: YOU. Just by being sweet You, you REALLY show her up. So she's trying to wear you out so that you won't have the energy any more to be so caring and helpful, and then they'll all have to resort to HER rotten, with-string-attached brand. Doubt she'd try a slander campaign- everyone knows you too well by now, it'd likely backfire so she's probably going to keep aiming her bullets at you or, once you give as good or better as you get (under the usually narc veil of only joking/just teasing), switch back to whomever was her last scapegoat/private toxins dumping-ground and emotional punchbag...or someone completely new. HOWEVER! Ultimately it is her husband's duty to take her to her GP. The woman is at the very least, emotionally ILL. What's his part in all of this? Is he permanently knackered and numb or something? "Is it bad for me to completely never speak or see her again. ? I’m thinking am I really able to have that privilege. She’s exhausting. I’ve done nothing so refuse to be dragged through a big drama in sorting it out. After 30 years ! Can I just walk away from her. I met her when I was 18. Having said that she’s completely fell out with me. Never has she completely ignored my birthday before which she has, and so had her husband and son. It’s almost hilarious, they know me ! And are actually pretending to believe I’m this evil daughter in law ! Conveniently forgetting I’m not" Yes, you can, and here's your chance. Blood is never thicker than water if it's Toxic. The familial rules apply to FAM-I-LIES whom therefore act accordingly, not the sodding opposite. Piss or get off the pot, Grandma. And while we're at it: My what a big NOSE you've got! TIP: literally STOP viewing her as a grown adult, just becauuse she's the size and look of one and can execute non-emotional tasks/things. She's Chucky's (thankfully milder) sister. Or, in view of her "public face"/"Jesus face" in company - a Gremlin (remember those? Do not feed (water) them, they just get more and more horrid - AS. WE. SEE. after these decades). If I'm brutally honest, however....because the others know that loveliness is proof of greater-than-avg strength and intelligence, and because they're probably by-now, all at a loss plus knackered beyond belief - your husband is Harry and you're Meghan (the REAL Meghan, not the media-made witch)....the damsel rescuing the prince in distress after having awakened him from his sleep (in the tower) with a kiss. They want you to rescue them from her...to put her in her box. Well....You clearly have the intelligence and energy (connected), but have you got the teeth? I'm betting you do but that you had them 'filed down' when growing-up because you were capable of being that bit too fiery and fierce. Nice Girls don't blah-blah. They do when up against raging bullies - ec.tually. Thoughts? Before that, though - RING SIL AND PARTNER AND GET THAT VISIT ARRANGED, TOUTE SUITE. Bet they can tell you a lot (- know thy enemy). PS: What does husband say about her and the whole set-up? And what's he told you about growing-up with her? And again - what's Grandad's part in all this? Or is he the one who's over the years, stripped her of all her rightful controls and powers, whereby all that's left is playing Matriarch/The Queen of Hearts? (He's just too quiet for my liking, tbh.) (PPS: scuse any cross-over - I've been having to do this in bits all afternoon.)

PS: I suspect that birthday card was code for: mum's bitched and moaned about you but I just wanted you to know that *I* know the truth - that you're lovely (and she's not). Seriously - phone and invite her asap - don't let that 'iron' go cold. You have the lovely card as your perfect opportunity so - you just thought you'd ring to say what a lovely thought and message, etc., etc. how it made your day, and how you've been meaning to suggest a get-together for a while now, but - life, etc... See on Lily31's thread (a post of hers roughly a month back): she'd befriended a bullied woman, was just herself (ACTUAL friend - shine-shine-shine), which opened this woman's eyes as well as gave her the confidence (the removal of fear of loss) - to chuck her other so-called friends and keep all other toxics at arm's length, and is MUCH happier for it (well, duh).

Also, if you search in the Key Word search box on the main page, using the words mother-in-law, you'll see you're not alone in this rotten situation by ANY means, and never were. These parents like to keep their kids as dependent and un-life-skilled as possible so that you they won't ever 'leave home', thereby leaving said, constantly-bored ("Pathological Boredom"), drama-loving leeches without a super-easy, super-convenient supply...their own beeping babies(!).

PPPS: Are you good at sarcasm? That's my fave. They cannot handle it. Can DISH it. Definitely can't take it.

PPPPS: If you're not happy being better at being bitchy/sarcy than her - there's always the Friendly Interrogator, which is when you question everything they say. Examples: 'Er....- WHYYY did you need to know my mum was giving my eldest her tea, sorry-what?'. (Me, I'd just laughingly say, What's it got to do with YOU? ....Trunkie want a bun?) 'Er.... ('er' becomes the Pavlovian warning bell...eventually, you can have them skidaddling just with Er)... Why are you telling me I needn't tell my child we're over there, just because unbeknownst to me you've taken it upon yourself? Why does it bother you? And why do you seem to think I'm telepathic?'. REMEMBER: they can't escape from YOU, either.

Another: 'Why do you always have to be so horrid and antagonistic? What's WRONG with you?' (said with the same tone you'd use to say - Why do you have a half-rotting penguin sat on your head?) (That one sends them into open or secretly-seething-but-leaking-badly, Narc Rage.) Basically, as she behaves so atriciously, that means, the gloves are off and YOU TOO can forego the manners and politeness you'd reserve for Normals. It's no good expecting them to step up to YOUR level....they're kids, they're too short, can't reach, have to pull you down. But if you unexpectedly JUMP/POUNCE down - haha, then they act all shocked and horrified. Again - to be like her, you have to not be used to being challenged. Their motto is "Hit or be hit". Mine is "Hit and get Hit Back" (and you were the one showed me where it hurts YOU most so...!)

"Also to add examples She said do you do washing ? I answered in a tone as if to say what an obscure question I said course I do ? She said oh it’s just when I speak to Mike on a Sunday ( my husband). He will say I’m gonna get some washing out. I sarcastically said god forbid a man do a women’s job ! It was a dig from her." THERE YOU GO - YOU GOT IT! And you'll get better and better at it. (Psst! That's how a lot of barristers end up barristers and quick-fire comedians stand-up performers (especially Improv).....Lifelong practise at biting-back and fending-off makes perfect, eh.) (Bet she's jealous cos her husband wouldn't. EVER. Nor ever has. Definitely tell me all about him.) Well, now we've identified a nerve (Bagpuss says, if my husband doesn't help with the washing then none of my 'FRIENDS' husbands are allowed to help, either), next time, try this: Her: oh it’s just when I speak to Mike on a Sunday he will say I’m gonna get some washing out. You: I knowwww.....that's how much he loves me :). (OOOOPH! - OW!, hahahaha)

Thank you so much ! The effort , the thought! Your imagination, knowledge and writing skills are phenomenal. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed and taken on board everything you have said. To be honest , her husband is believing what ever he needs to believe to stay in her good books. Even at the expense of turning on his own children. In ways I find this worse because surely If he grew a pair he would admit or know that she is so wrong and tell her. Mike knows they are wrong but is somewhat under a spell where their actions affect him and although annoyed with them for my sake , I think he needs their approval back. I love how you dealt with your ex father in law. That’s inspiring. We still have not heard from them. Me personally am completely finished with them now. There is not one single positive with them now for me. I’m actually getting more annoyed as I keep remembering and accepting just all their negativity and arrogance at me. I feel like shouting who the hell did you think you were Always learning too late tho 😅

It’s funny because I can even remember one of the first instances that took me by surprise with her. Something I thought nothing of. But she was angry and I think I may have felt I had been inconsiderate. We said we’d visit with her granddaughter , our eldest who was a baby at the time. We said we’d visit both our parents over Easter weekend. We’d mentioned Friday to mil and another day to my mum. My mum couldn’t do the other day so we said to mil we would swap the days. So we could see both. I thought nothing of it. My mum would have said sure I don’t mind , swap the days then we all get to see yous. But mil fell out with us for a week and refused for ever more to not see us on Good Friday. Thinking about it , she prob made me / us feel like we were out of order. But now I’m thinking no ! Surely we did nothing wrong there.

Ello! Oy, stop making me blush! I know there's huge relief in there as well, though, no wozzies. Afore I respond to your latest - I forgot to mention, about this bit: ""Having said that she’s completely fell out with me. Never has she completely ignored my birthday before which she has, and so had her husband and son. It’s almost hilarious, they know me ! And are actually pretending to believe I’m this evil daughter in law ! Conveniently forgetting I’m not" Then "To be honest , her husband is believing what ever he needs to believe to stay in her good books. Even at the expense of turning on his own children. In ways I find this worse because surely If he grew a pair he would admit or know that she is so wrong and tell her."" WELL DEDUCED! Yes. They've GOT to side with her! If they don't - she'll turn her wrath onto EITHER OF THEM (or both, by the sounds of her). They can't take it like you can, they're not REMOTELY as strong and resilient (or self-controlled) as you. OR as uninjured and knackered! (Father still sets the family tone....unless he's been deflated and trampled on for too long?) Methinks they only genuine adults in that ship, are: You. And your kids (comparitively-speaking)...or - soon will be! I have varying degrees of question-mark over the rest of them. E.g. Does your husband ensure to be seen to be on your side, NORMALLY? Has he ever stepped in, vocally or verbally, during a tete-a-tete/pecking from MIL, BEFORE? Ditto where concerns her pecking the children? All I really have, is this: "Mike knows they are wrong but is somewhat under a spell where their actions affect him" Can you explain what you mean, there, using everyday examples? (PS: That's quite an old-fashioned name for someone of his age, isn't it?) "and although annoyed with them for my sake ," For YOUR sake? What about his sake, and the kids'??? Did he actually say 'your sake'?? "I think he needs their approval back." Approval over/for what? What - like, how to be good little human toxins-toilet without ever complaining, criticising or, god forbid, challenging? How come - 'THEIR' approval? FIL just goes along with whatever his (er) wife decides? "I love how you dealt with your ex father in law. That’s inspiring." Is it? But why? I'm not being obtuse or facetious - just - WHY? I'd just had enough, finally lost patience and got angry. I mean, when someone's exhausted societal law then SELF-law - what else is there? It's walk away (or run)n for-good or dominate them. Or the latter followed by the former, usually. (See ABC's thread...reckon he can't stop hmself from wanting and needing to try turning the tables on his (hah!) fiancee before ending it.) (PS: I said, 'he wasn't used to that', but I meant - not since childhood.) If you liked that, you should see my Walk Aways, LOL. But no - those you (feel at the time) you're trapped with (CAREFUL WHO'S 'MARRIED' TO WHOMEVER YOU MARRY!) - I verbally and/or psychologically wrestle them to the ground and put Toddler Reins on them. Sometimes they're grateful ("Dadda!/Mamma!"), sometimes they're just conforming for a while (biding their vindictive, vengeful time, being as how their ego literally will not let them admit they, by rational, reasonable standards, needlessly started and continued it - hence they try to force you to be the villain/scapegoat for their bad behaviour). "We still have not heard from them." That spells Holiday to me! " Me personally am completely finished with them now." That is your rightful decision and the correct, survivalist, child-protective one, considering they're infectious (especially towards innocent, vulnerable children). I'm just surprised that Mike wanted you so involved with them so often to begin with. ? There again, your kids are clearly intelligent - starting with eldest opting-out as meant "Nice Gran" had to come round. "There is not one single positive with them now for me. I’m actually getting more annoyed as I keep remembering and accepting just all their negativity and arrogance at me. I feel like shouting who the hell did you think you were" Fabulous! Another fast healer (albeit you've been grieving out of the relationship with every kick....Kicking The Love/Like Out Of You, I call it). What comes next is: "...And - more to the sodding point - who the hell did you think *I* am?!...daring to treat me like that". And then comes: "........Ughrrrch (spit) - UNCLEAN!" And then Pity. But this time WITHOUT the urge to fix them or try to make them (fckn) happy (forafcknchange). You cease taking any responsibility for their emotional states." "Always learning too late tho" To late for what - what?

"It’s funny because I can even remember one of the first instances that took me by surprise with her." If (not reading ahead) what you're about to describe defines am Ambush - and this was NOT a one-off style of picking on you - then I'm going to have to consider she's a 'female' Narc-Sociopath. They go for the shock factor to leave you not just intellectually dumped-on/instantly overwhelmed, but paralysed by the lack of any prior frame of reference. "Something I thought nothing of. But she was angry and I think I may have felt I had been inconsiderate." You think - it MUST have been something you said/did/she took wrong or how ELSE would another normal person react so aggressively or violently, so overly out-of-kilter with what just happened/got said? Basically - she CAN'T be! She CAN'T be actually mentally-disturbed!...for-real! Noooo, I've made a mistake somewhere or missed something.... "We said we’d visit with her granddaughter , our eldest who was a baby at the time. We said we’d visit both our parents over Easter weekend. We’d mentioned Friday to mil and another day to my mum. My mum couldn’t do the other day so we said to mil we would swap the days. So we could see both. I thought nothing of it." You mean, at the time, MIL didn't utter any protest, nor subsequently? "My mum would have said sure I don’t mind , swap the days then we all get to see yous. But mil fell out with us for a week and refused for ever more to not see us on Good Friday." Total over-reaction, that last bit. At what point did she start to Silent Treatment you? Before or after the visit? But, no, not an ambush, then. (Well, that's something...!) But definitely Opportunism. I'm betting they'd turned-down something (coach trip?) 'more fun'. So now that can't happen again because that specific day is now Out Of Bounds. Hmm. How convenient. Yeah? Meaning - she gets to make that specific day a No Kids Allowed day, all 'thanks' to you. It's YOUR fault she from now on goes on a coach-trip or whatever on an X-day, not HERS for the fact she'd rather please herself than sit through more boring grandparent stuff. Coverts are nothing if not Neglectful and anywhere between overly cool/disinterested/disengaged (could go on...) and stone-cold. (PS: Have you ever seen her genuinely, heartfeltly give Mike a Mum-hug?) They also, won't just TELL you they're not happy about whatever you're supposed to have done/said. That would be too easy. Plus wouldn't achieve (1) keeping you down/cowed (no longer competition for Matriarch) (as if you'd want that job!), (2) creating an excuse to get all seething and dramatic (as well as have something to 'do'). I said to my SNex: 'If someone accidentally 'steps on your toe' but doesn't notice - that does NOT give you the right to 'turn around and punch them full in the face'. He replied: 'Yyyess, it ddddoes' (in a childishly arrogant MLEUGH-HMPH! way as is so consistent with still-kids still-with Defiance Disorder into Conduct Disorder into pretend-partner ahole-predator-parasite). I said: 'Well,...it does if you want to live the rest of your life single, yeah...'. (Howzat for a too-subtle threat that I was getting tired of it and might end it.) Well, anyway, now I've shone this different-coloured light on it - am I wrong or is that what they've been doing ever Easter X-day 'instead'? If you somehow ever found out that, REALLY, she wanted to selfishly keep that day to herself and FIL, you'd be within rights to protest at her wanting to deprive the kids of what should, on 'kiddie day', be at their convenience...And she'd be exposed or expose-able for not being Super-Gran. "Thinking about it , she prob made me / us feel like we were out of order. But now I’m thinking no ! Surely we did nothing wrong there." Just to play Devil's Advocate: Had you given her adequate notice for this swap? Or was it merely and more simply, that you wanted Her Royal Highness to give up her throne so that your lowlier Mother could be seated on it? I.e. you "made it look like" YOUR mum was more important to you - as well as generally - than SHE was. Hahahaha! How verray dare hyou! And there was her, thinking you were hooked as her Number 1 fan! MY!...you HAVE been biting your tongue and showing a brave face for bloody ages and ages, yes! Wow. You deserve a medal. Or a carriage clock (hahahah - sorry/not sorry).

See how her needs, her wants, her desires, her convenience, ...her EGO and false pride, especially - all come MILES before the children and 'her oh-so-important family'? Is she loud/mouthy/bawdy? Or quiet and snippy/sniffy/snooty?

I’m so sorry I’ve not replied sooner. It’s all been a hectic lately , and I kept thinking I need to get back on here. As always I really very much appreciate everything you have said. I’m not just being nice. Honestly this has helped me so much. I’m really now not just seeing things clearer but actually believing the clearer Vision of it all. I do sometimes get this bad feeling of I’m just awful. I’ve made her seem worse than is etc. I start to feel like it is me with the problem just like They always made me feel in a disagreement. I’d be spoken to like I had issues basically and I believed that. I’ve realised how stupid I was because she convinced me , that she was just a “ straight Talker “ and I that people don’t like that. I literally believed that. I repeated it to others. She’s just a genuine straight talker. I’d never say the things she would say and I had it in my head that I was too soft , two faced for not being honest , a fool ( all of which she implied. But I’ve realised I am honest , and calling herself a straight talker was her giving herself a pass to be offensive. I’ve only now learnt that there is a difference between a straight talker , and an offensive Person giving opinions that were not asked for. But it’s frustrating that I only learnt this now 24 years on. I was brainwashed in to thinking it’s ok for her to call me lazy if she thought that ( I’m def not lazy). Comments like Aren’t you suppose to wear pants like that baggy ? Have you died your hair. I said yes she she pulled face as if to say it’s not good. She refused to speak of my promotion. Just indirectly had digs like “ I don’t know why people work full time Monday to Friday. They can’t do anything in the week or keep on top of house. She said what are your hours. I said 8:30 to 5. She said eww that’s long. I think she planned that answer without even working out the hours. She told me I went wider in size after having children. I knew this. Amd she’d make me believe she wasn’t being mean and that it’s just true. Offer something I like that she didn’t , and she’d Say eww god no. Not just no thanks. She had me believing it’s just her genuine straight talking personality. She said do you want to bring one of my handbags when we do for a meal so you’re not having to use that small back pack you always use. She once said il get you more feminine. I shut her down and said I was like this when Mike met me and I won’t be changing. She mimicked how I spoke to my children once as of to say I was some daft soft fool. It’s a pity you didn’t do this. It’s a pity you didn’t do that. I’ve said it’s not coz I didn’t want to do that. Even when my dad passed and I asked Mike to call in to see if he was ok. So Mike found him. She visited me with flowers the next day because she said it was the right thing to do but had to say it’s a pity you didn’t think to ring the police so Mike didn’t have to find him. Thank you so much for listening. Appreciate your opinions so much

See how her needs, her wants, her desires, her convenience, ...her EGO and false pride, especially - all come MILES before the children and 'her oh-so-important family'? 100 percent! Not heard a word from her because irs not a good situation for her with us now. All about her , no desire to selflessly know how her family are , when nothing in it for her. Omg that’s so right. Is she loud/mouthy/bawdy? Or quiet and snippy/sniffy/snooty? I’d say more the second. But when she’s with quiet me and my quietish children , she can be more cocky. She said things to my children like your quiet , and with sarcasm said has your mum told you not to speak. But at these times. When jeckly n not Hyde we all felt uncomfortable

I want to smack her pettily-evil face and smack it HARD. Anyway - you've got it. Every single 2+2 Equals 4 up there, you've got it BANG-ON. (Sticky Gold Star on your clever forehead for your dedicated research - "Thlup!"). You're a really fast learner. BUT (and it's a wide, wobbly one): Coverts can keep things going (i.e. not blow it) for DECADES. Whereas female (and male) Narc-Sociopaths always go too far, too soon, Coverts always J----UST manage to stay outside of the Instant Dismissal zone. It's petty. Yeah. So is being tied in the bent-over-backwards position with your head under a tap and suffering only one drip on your forehead. The tenth is less funny. The 100th... The 1000th.... Google "Covert Narcissist - Death By A Thousand Papercuts", and then, "Chinese Water Torture - how it works". Covert *underneath* Subtle/Bitchy/Obnoxiously Rude Overt (her REASONS for pecking you are the covert and truly malevolent part: she wants you gone, by trying to divide your husband's (and the rest of the family's) loyalty and thereby sow the seed of an ongoing row into divorce, because you threaten her crown). And there was you, thinking she was just an endless bitch because "that's just her" and "you're an easy target". (Pff.) Or maybe it's because, once, you failed to offer her a biscuit. Oh yeah...THEY'RE the petty ones! But that would just make her agenda of wanting you to want to leave the clan, all the more enjoyable (through being "justified" - "cuckoo!"). Or, to be fair, *create* that agenda. ...'Why did you and your husband divorce?' 'Because I forgot to offer my mother-in-law a biscuit, which apparently meant I had it in for her and wanted 'her job', and so from that point on, it was all-out psychological warfare and, as it's illegal to asphyxiate someone with Custard Creams, I decided it was better to get out of that hellhole'. Ridiculous. And obviously, it's not going to work on you and hubby. But...There's still the 'yummy' drama and things to think about as make her feel like she actually has a life...or distract from all the things she can't do nor does in-line with modern ways and thinking ('Far be it for a man, indeed!')...and the fact her own marriage is shite....which isn't HER fault, "of course", nothing to do with her and her utterly atrocious, downright ANTISOCIAL conduct and behaviour, including in front of kids. Know what? You know the advert, 'Cruelty to kids must stop - FULL STOP'? You and your husband have together taken the decision to FULL STOP that rotten legacy. Which reminds me: watching interestedly, is he?....taking notes so HE can try it next? Has he actually said anything to show he's impressed? PS: Are you 'Muggins', as in, 'I suppose Muggins here might as well show them how it's done'? Yeah, well...Tell your husband I said - 'Watch n' learn, Sonny Jim, watch 'n learn...'. :) Anyhoo... later or tomorrow or just-as-sodding-soon-as!, I'll go through those "a-ceeeed!" comments of hers and give you a variety of short, sharp, shoot-her-dead retorts...just one phrase so that you don't waste your precious energy on her any more (if - IF - she does come back to apologise, although - warning - they can hold out almost a year...this is now a game of Chicken so do NOT back down or you're permanently done for unless you work TWICE as hard as now). You just need to practise saying them and then - attitude well and truly switched - loads of your own will start popping into your head. Other people will find them hilarious - for the mixture of humour arousal AND sweet relief. Isn't it ironic that, by fearing an effort-free takeover from you, that's precisely what she's directly headed for? Negative, self-fulfilling prophesy is their middle name, hence they're called Self-Sabotagers and Self-Destroyers. Silly, silly, silly woman-kid, but... too late now! Go get her, Tiger. And keep updating me/us, definitely (thumbs-up and double chest-thump).

Hey-hey - have you got an update? Don't mean in terms of incidents. Well - internal ones (yours and hubby's). Even more, prevously mis-filed memories (in terms of true intentions/meanings behind the word/deed) must have been flying into your mental In-Tray by now, yes? And did you ring the sister-in-law and partner? PS: Some promised bat-backs (non-returnable) and, hand-tying, Friendly(ish) Interrogator queries: "I was brainwashed in to thinking it’s ok for her to call me lazy if she thought that ( I’m def not lazy)." Her: You're lazy. Future You: Well, I'm not - and there's too much evidence to support that if you'd ever actually use those two swivelly things just below your forehad, but - even if I was...Why lose sleep over it when it doesn't affect you any? Or: Yes, dear... Or: Sorry, what was that?....Sorry - again?....Uh...I can't seem to hear you properly - how weird..... One more time?......Nope.... Never mind (change subject). (She'll get it.) "I’ve realised how stupid I was because she convinced me , that she was just a “ straight Talker “ and I that people don’t like that. I literally believed that. I repeated it to others. She’s just a genuine straight talker." Future You: Yup. As straight as a 12-inch dagger. Or: Like Donald Trump. "I’d never say the things she would say ((NOTE: nor would anyone but Narcs aka Boundary and Taboo Tramplers/Smashers)) and I had it in my head that I was too soft , two faced for not being honest , a fool ( all of which she implied. But I’ve realised I am honest , and calling herself a straight talker was her giving herself a pass to be offensive." Yup. Disbelief that your MIL can actually-factually be insane, is what it is. Whereas, Straight Talker is NOT just another word for Constantly-Antagonistic-Arsehole-Bitch-Cow-etc. PS: I *still* want to slap her stupid face for you all! In my 'W*nker Top 10 - the No. 1 spot is between your Narc and ABCD's (- read that - you won't believe that either!). "I’ve only now learnt that there is a difference between a straight talker , and an offensive Person giving opinions that were not asked for. But it’s frustrating that I only learnt this now 24 years on." That's how it goes. That's what makes Coverts the worst, in terms of 'wasted' time (not really...cos you come out stronger-faster and make up for all that lost time, no worries...Well, except for those victims who talk themselves into believing they won't 'win' or heal, and then don't, of course). "I was brainwashed in to thinking it’s ok for her to call me lazy if she thought that ( I’m def not lazy). Comments like Aren’t you suppose to wear pants like that baggy ?" You: Start singing "Baggy Trousers" by Madness (as you walk off). Optional Extra: Only walk away (gigglig) after you get to 'bang on the head with a plastic cup' where you - in-time - simultaneously bang her - lightly but not QU....ITE lightly enough! - with one of your kids' plastic cups/bowls... She will NOT know how to handle that - I promise you! And if she DOES recover herself to say something like, 'You're MAD, you are!', you come back with, 'AAAND well done YOU' or 'Yeah, do you have thata effect a lot or am I your first?'. Or (quippingly), 'Mad in a GOOD way!' and, as you walk off, under your breath, adding 'Unlike SOME people I know...'. "Have you died your hair. I said yes she she pulled face as if to say it’s not good." You: Get with the times, Gran-maww! Or - Careful or you're going to start sounding like an antique! Or - give away your age, why doncha! (tum-tee-tum...) "She refused to speak of my promotion. Just indirectly had digs like “ I don’t know why people work full time Monday to Friday. They can’t do anything in the week or keep on top of house." You: Ah! But they CAN... Or: Wow! How many 'people' do you KNOW?! (PS: note her "Tell" (way more missable than a Narc-Sociopath's): Not, on top of the housework. On top of the HOUSE. You seeing what I'm seeing?) "She said what are your hours. I said 8:30 to 5. She said eww that’s long. I think she planned that answer without even working out the hours." Yes, she did. That's Covert abuse for ya. They set you up to knock you down. You: 24-7. Next question? Or (if at your house - pointing at each ornament, piece of furniture in the room): That's ours. And that. Oh, and that. You gave us that (mm)....and that (etc.). IOW - she wants to play? Yeah, well - in that case, she's going to be your spinning-top. "She told me I went wider in size after having children." You (a bit too quietly): All the better to squash you with - WHAT? - NOTHING! (tum-tee-tum...) Or: Yeah....Mike loves it ((which is true, actually - men want bodies OPPOSITE to theirs, same as women do - INNIT)). "I knew this. Amd she’d make me believe she wasn’t being mean and that it’s just true." Yeah. The straight talk again. You: Ohhhhhhh.... So is that what happened to you after you had your lot, then? "Offer something I like that she didn’t , and she’d Say eww god no. Not just no thanks." You: It's a (whatever), Mother, not a tarantula...no need to have kittens, hahahah (tum-tee-tum....). Or: Not quite. But you *may* call me Jesus. "She had me believing it’s just her genuine straight talking personality." She threw her personality away when she was a kid. Go google - NPD - no personality of their own (or some such). "She said do you want to bring one of my handbags when we do for a meal so you’re not having to use that small back pack you always use." You: I am under orders to never leave it behind. Her: Huh? You: Oh! Has Mike never told you? I'm an M16 operative...got a pistol with silencer and EVERYTHING in here! Ha-ha-ha-ha! (tum-tee-tum...) Or: It's a bomb. I just haven't found any reason for setting it off. YET. "She once said il get you more feminine. I shut her down and said I was like this when Mike met me and I won’t be changing." Self-Assertive - tick! But not as fun as it could be (for solely you): You: What - like crutchless panties? ......Oh, alright then - um - like sparkly baubles in my hair? .............A life-size My Little Pony? Or: YYYOU?! (And if she objects) No-no, I just meant, you're already too busy, surely? Why - what did you think I meant? (Then, said ham-ily) Who MEEE? NOOOOOO, NEVER! "She mimicked how I spoke to my children once as of to say I was some daft soft fool." Can you mimic her? Like - PROPERLY mimic her - voice, mannerisms and everything. If not - start practising (ohhhh, your kids will piss themselves laughing!...double-whammy!). "It’s a pity you didn’t do this. It’s a pity you didn’t do that. I’ve said it’s not coz I didn’t want to do that." You: Why is it? Or: Oh! Well, next time, I'll call you first and you can come over and show me how it's done. (This is brilliant way to get her to, say, clean your floor 'the right way' for you. I've actually done this - lots of times. Idiots only realise once it's too late, hahahah! Blinded by their own, sick ego urges, is why.) Or just plain (pretending it's tongue-in-cheek): Da YOU wanna do it?....Well, shut-up and make us a cuppa, then, Aggie! (ref Kim 'n Aggie - How Clean Is Your House). Or: Yes, but if I had - bang would have gone my great opportunity to ruin your day!...and THEN! - World Domination, here I come! Or (even more subtly than SHE can come up with): Yeah...But where would be the fun in THAT! "Even when my dad passed and I asked Mike to call in to see if he was ok. So Mike found him. She visited me with flowers the next day because she said it was the right thing to do but had to say it’s a pity you didn’t think to ring the police so Mike didn’t have to find him." You: I couldn't! My Crystal-Ball was at the menders! Or: (Since this type is beyond the 'beyond the pale') - F*CK OFF, YOU EVIL, ANTI-SOCIAL, SACRILEGOUS B*TCH. Me, when they go too far like that, I'm a 'straight-talker' too. I would have grabbed her "obligatory" flowers, shoved them at her chest, while saying 'OUT! LEAVE NOW! AND I SHALL BE TELLING *EVERYONE* WHAT YOU JUST DARED SAY TO ME!'. "Thank you so much for listening. Appreciate your opinions so much" And I appreciate your learning so much. After this, you'll be one of the White Angels that help squish the Dark Angels. They fear us the most. For obvious reasons: TOUGHER than them. Because WE'RE NOT UNHEALTHY AND/OR CRIPPLED TO BUGGERY AND/OR DOWNRIGHT SICK IN THE HEAD! Plus, they're actually in wheelchairs - only, they're invisible ones so we don't see them (at first). You know those Magic Eye pictures?... It's a bit like that. Without even knowing Magic Eye pictures exist. (Sense?) In combo with that fairground game, Whack-a-Mole.

I’m actually smiling and laughing reading all of this. How do you do this ! 😅. I hope you have wrote a book. It’s amazing ! Brilliant. Funny and soooo Knowledgeable and understanding I’m glad you seem free now from any negative people They are gone from my life , but they are not. I’m awake again from a nightmare and it seems ridiculous. She’s a pathetic oldish woman that rationally I’m not afraid of , yet my irrational anxiety is through the roof Last nights nightmare - I’m trying to leave the house but can’t get a though the room without her being there. She makes up with Mike and I say to Mike , great if that’s what you want. Then I’m shouting sorry to my children , she is back in our life. I wake up , breathless. I came on here as I remembered you asked me about Mike in all this. If they reachd out to him he’d take them back I think. I always said that’s fine , but I even think he may expect me to. But I won’t , not now , not where I’m at with it all. I honestly just could not. I sometimes think I’m not free of the in-laws unless I leave the marriage. I’m sure I wouldn’t. But even though they and us have completely shut each other out , in this marriage, I still feel their presence. I will read what you recommended Again thank you so much

Hi-Hi! Having trouble finding the time to post again (another "busynami"), hence the late hour. "I’m actually smiling and laughing reading all of this." Oh, good - you've got your Sense Of Humour back (and it obviously matches my own! "..., which is nice? :)" (-name the Brit comedy sketch series!). "How do you do this ! 😅." What - type? (You shouldn't encourage me; it'll only encourage me, haha.) Well - don't forget to bear in mind that half of your amusement is actually huge relief. Those kinds of bat-backs - even if said only in one's head whenever they 'start', or even just hearing someone else say them - shrink them down to proper, puny perspective. As you've discovered. Saying that, I did do a bit of stand-up. I was born into a Cult - which was superb training (I'm incorrigibly positive and get a real kick out of making delicious Lemonade out of even rotten Lemons, which REALLY pees-off Narcs). You've got 1 on your back. I had 50-odd. And Ostracised the lot. once the healthies had died and 'had a decent enough burial'...There was just ONE straggler for a bit longer and then - SNIP!). And I'm a born Rebel/Warrior, so, whenever do-able, I'd always bat back (two-fold) - either with a single sword-swipe or by a thousand cuts in one sitting (the dreaded 'telling it like they are' lecture)...made it not worth THEIR while 'to start'. If not, shuffled silently away out of range before they could get any power over me. You can, however, bat-back with silly faces...don't HAVE to say anything. I'm with Shahida Arabi, you see. Be the Narc's Nightmare...Out-Narc the Narc.... Devalue and Discard THEM as you feed yourself back to strength again. You might want to check out her site? She is so grounded and clear-sighted, plus has a superb way with words: E.g. ((my comments)) : ____________________________ https://thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2024/09/12-power-plays-narcissists-use-to-gaslight-you/ (Extract) "12 Power Plays Narcissists Use To Gaslight You) Law #1: Do as I say, not as I do. The narcissist doesn’t criticize you because they exercise lofty moral standards themselves; they do so to keep you under their control, walking on eggshells, and mired in self-doubt so they don’t lose you to a better partner or a better life away from them. That is why they will display astounding hypocrisy when they tell you what to do – while engaging in opposite behaviors themselves." ((Excellently, succinctly put, even when including examples and details!) I would just add there: AND (ref Malignants) they do it because they realise their hypocrisy is bound to injure your huge, Empath-typical, sense of Justice and Fairness (warped Bonus Points). (PS: My late father used to say (in a silly voice): 'Put 'em all in a field and BOMB the basstuds!', haha! - or alternatively, about your malig. n-spaths, aka louts & thugs (antisocials), football fake-fans especially: 'and let them punch each other to-death!'.)) Law #2: Whoever cares least is the most powerful... ((Aka, 'S/he who cares least, wins!', or 'Treat her(/him) mean to keep him keen', which is COMPLETELY back-to-front-upside-down to how lasting relationships work. Google: Narcissist twisting everything 180 degrees.)) ...Distance yourself and retreat shortly after love bombing. ((The "Take It Away Again" manipulative hard-sales tactic as triggers you into fear of losing the 'great deal' that is Them.)) ...The narcissist acts on the morally warped principle that the more interest you show in a person, the less they will desire you. That is why they try to weaponize their absence, silent treatments, and stonewalling to keep their partners “in line” and always obedient to them. (("Cu-ckoo!")) ____________________________ But, back to you: The point is (, "coughMikecough!"!): in civilised, decent society, the singled-out victim is not expected subsequently to be polite to nor stay in regular touch with their - Emotional beeping Rapist. ..let alone, inviting them round or going to theirs, for afternoon beeping TEA!!! His mother has grossly disrespected and bullied you for decades. How's that for disrespect towards HIM, your husband, and HIS present and future security, healthy and happiness? If Mike were 'expecting' you to follow his (potential) unearned-forgiveness lead, then - what is he? DEAF? BLIND? MAD? :p Or too-long-convinced 'it's no big deal'? Saying that, however: Wasn't it he who just recently (presumably without-warning) dove in - like pigging lightning - to 'finish' what you'd only just recently begun - by his having complained (hhhhh! - shock-horror!) to his Smother on boyfriend's (thereby, automatically, daughter's) behalf? How come he can stand up for justice for a young family friend, but not for himself including you and the kids? Isn't he worth it (, ask him?). Doesn't he WANT a quiet life (in that regard)? Rolling-Over does NOT get you that - as you and I know! Not with Narcs. They're not GRATEFUL or anything and vowing to be the best boss for you, possible?! It's just letting them get away with it aka feeding the monster again. (IZ THA' WHAD 'E WANTS - cuz tha''s whaddle 'appen.) Or are you worried simply for the fact you're aware you're ahead of him on the 'waking-up' to her front, and ready to excise if no admission, explanation and apology is forthcoming, whilst he's only at 'let's just give slapping her lightly a wee try (since I've got my wife's tacit go-ahead and support) and see what happens' stage, with too many rebellion attempts still to mount before he can face the real thing of holding out for said apology to you both but especially you? AND your kids that she forces into witnessing their mum being treated and talked to like dirt (which IMPRINTS them with a long-lasting sense of Powerlessness and Helplessness BTW). Best you give him some homework in the form of online explanatory articles, then (?), adding, 'Ketchup, Baby Tomato?!' But anyway. If he wants to see Beavis and Butthead while you and the kids don't, and although that would (quite rightly) annoy the hell out of you (and the kids), then - let him. You do not have to tolerate this woman while he struggles off her sodding Matrix/Spider Web. (Likewise slower to wake in the morning, is he?) PS: Have all/any of the kids started going, 'Awwww, not THEM...do we HAVE to?' or some such, lately, when you've announced it was visit the grandfolks day? Or, dragged their 'get your things together' feet? Or had to be chased-up then nagged to get into the car? How would Mike like it if it were YOUR mother and father, towards HIM? (Have you put it to him like this yet?) Or worse - your father as the ringleader?! (An enemy's betrayal is always more potent when, technically, they should be your ally, or once were friend.) OR how's about a compromise while he ketchups? For example: We all go. But - she says even just ONE THING...and we say something like, 'Thanks for ruining it - we're going now', AND ACTUALLY LEAVE. TOGETHER. Do read Lily31's thread from 'last' third. You'll see what a tight-knit family of co-targets and -victims can DO, what a difference it can make. But, you (Mike) don't even have to exile. You JUST...every single time she starts - LEAVE. Unit arrives....Unit leaves. United we stand, divided we fall. Then, you'd have to up it to 'We'll only come if this time you don't get funny with any of us'. If she plays dumb to that, or when you arrive, still acts-up - LEAVE. And NOW you have total justification for in-future saying - 'Compu(t)er sez Nao' to any 'reachings-out', which no-one could/would dare deny wuold be the only self- and family-respectful & protective thing to do - UNLESS SHE'S MAD AND WILLING TO PROVE IT, EVEN! TO! HER! DELUDING! SELF! Manoeuvre her into a corner of the stage via a series of steps. Then, having effectively 'given her the floor', see what she does with it....hoover, wash and polish it?... or poo and puke on it (via you). It's difficult, isn't it. He has, after all, been under her spell and in her shackles (or stuck to her web), for FAR, FAR longer than you. Deeper sleep = longer to come round to full wakefulness. You'll probably have to be a bit patient, Megan. But - actions speak loudest, and, telling her off about boyfriend, recently, WAS a step in that right, 'give her a smack' direction, yes? He should be warned if he doesn't find another way to show solidarity, however: the kids will lose respect for him, worsened through seeing that only YOU have leadership/full parentally mature and pack-protective qualities. Especially what with you, showing them how do-able yet imperative it is to hold out for Justice, even when completely leaving any personal power-equalisation urges out of it. It's her chronic misdemeanour - her apology and promise to change for the good of "the family" she no-doubt crows about. Even a toddler knows that. What's so Rocket-Sciency about that for him, ask him (just playing Devil's Advocate)? Else, he'll be showing his Smother that he is NOT as united with you as a husband should, not even after having been time-and-time-again yet more so NOW, thanks to her snipe towards dd's bf, been given all the freedom and license in the world to mount a protest and insistent for above-table-Elephant peace talks, whereby, yet again - even SHE couldn't deny it, lest show herself up as mentally sodding ILL. She's probably too far gone, too entrenched, to change. She can only CHOOSE to play-act well (which is better than nothing but DOES mean they start on another innocent - so bear that in mind and just knowingly, pretend to give her a good debate from time-to-time). So...can only choose to behave by-rote/self-suppression around those she needs and/or needs to impress or needs to get back in favour with, ie. YOU guys. Ideally, a separation needs to be long enough that the reunion talks feel "awks". Shows that you've achieved that more formal, boundary-laden distance from her and lost all the prior, bad habits and sense of liberty (if they're not too severe to manage even this - fingers crossed). And she won't acknowledge and request a pardon if Mike goes so far as to *show* her that (1) she needn't, and - worse - (2) that he and you are not tight, there are chinks in your relationship (this is her perception/twisting of interpretation, remember?), ergo, with more effort from her - divideable. It'll only encourage her, IOW. So it's not about how he feels, HIS intentions. It's about how she'll read or twist it to mean. They're Twisters. Words and meanings, to them, aren't information, they're just tools for manipulation. He'll stupidly be super-feeding the monster AND staying in her cage. But again - while you're being reasonable in giving him ketchup time, you are under no onus to have to spend said time going back into the cage WITH him. He can't expect LOYALTY if he's not giving it, can he. Even if it's not strictly his fault. Because it's more his problem than yours. You're just suffering for it. She wants you under her thumb or you gone, meaning, him back under it. (She's done a huge 'sedating' number on them all, hasn't she. The attitude is, 'Awww, that's just what she's liiike....Awww, just ignooore her... Awww, she doesn't really mean it....Aww, it's no big deal.' Oh Yeah? Bet you weren't saying that when YOU were her punching-bag and scapegoat. IT GRATES. And it's Water Torture. And it makes us Empaths, particularly, ILL, including physically - go Google the myriad physical aftermaths and ailments that too many victims suffer after chronic as well as intermittently-acute Narc Abuse. ME, Fibromyalgia, Alopecia, Hives, Heart and Joint problems, Cancer, etc., etc., etc. anyone?) Also - re finding yourself having to entertain the concept of leaving the marriage: My advice would be: whether Present You thinks 'that'd never happen' - bear in mind that however-much Near-Future You might well vehemently disagree by then. Don't load yourself with unnecessary weights/fears when you're going into battle. Sure - don't take sides when it's truly petty, insignificant. But it's not and you have a plethora of evidence to prove it. He needs - ideally - to insta-man-up, even if just for the sake of justice - and being seen to do so by his 'protoges'. They'll be watching to see what he does next, don't you worry. Kids ain't stupid, they just lack the vocabulary. They know the difference between appropriate and downright sacrilegous, right and wrong, and, how somehow behaves when they like you, or don't, and so-much-so that they have it in for you. Anyway, if he DOES take her back - with you out of the picture, she'll just start picking on him again. And her husband. That's the reason why they wouldn't take her on. They're all playing Musical Statues so that they don't draw her attention (and get between her crosshairs again). SO. All he has to agree to do is to train a naughty puppy. No-one's ASKING him to excise his own "mother". That has to be HIS choice, HIS having had enough, HIS fear that it cannot possibly be good for his marital chances if he does nothing to insist she WORK for her forgiveness, starting by ASKING for it, not 'reaching out' (I think yer mother might have cancer - or - This is making your mother ILL...that sort of 'reaching out' you mean?) He and his father aren't very grown-up, really, are they. (Have I said that already?) Nice ones or not - they clearly have the courage of kids and/or once tried to take her on but did it wrong and now daren't. In which case - I'm telling you - it's Sister-In-Law and Partner that are your active/overt teammates in-waiting. Oh and - I heavily suspect - daughter. (She's got your b*lls.) AND your own Mum. Important Question: So did you invite the pair of them - the Outcasts for Being Different - over yet? Anyhoo... It's like they randomly throw you this rotten, foul-stinking parcel (which, as a 'homing pigeon', they are destined to ultimately always carry) so that Them Outdoors - "their public" - will think they're the sweet-smeller and you, the stinker. E.g (albeit a romantic context): the abuser husband who picks a fight to deliberately upset his wife, right before dinner-party guests arrive - so that, not only does he purge for "his public" (your otherwise potential supporters), but also so that he charms the guests while you're miserable and mute ('party pooper...Debbie downer...never any fun' or 'well that was awks')....that sort of crap. Throw it straight back. Even if you have to play the fool and (heh-heh - another fave of mine) making like you're shouting and they've gone deaf: Hand cupping ear, rapid shaking of head, silently mouthing, "Whaaaat? I can't heeear you!". If ever you can't think of a thing to say, just say, 'Ah - PLEUGH' and walk off. As long as it's moreover 'Ew - poo - you smell' and not 'Leave me alooone, boo-hoo', NOR even (NOTE!) an assertion a bit too on the firm side whereby it gets twisted by their always desperately hungry egos into being a sign of Fear & Defensiveness on your part ergo converted to 'food' for THEM, BY them (self-deluding self-flattering). Seriously...they are hell-bent on controlling the narrative and meaning of everything, to-suit. It's all lies, but they're The biggest self-deluders on the planet (with the vital aid of their 'fans' and victims' sychophantic agreement ('Yes, dear, whatever you say, dear')...hence why so many of those that rely on their looks or simply whose egos are too fragile to withstand ageing gracefully and losing their youthful energy, undergo cosmetic surgery, only to come out looking like Barry Manilow's sibling! Talk about marking themselves with an Early Warning system?! (And they say there is no 'god' - ...cuh!) ...Or - another fave tack of mine: start singing pop song lyrics that replicate whatever iffy word or phrase they've come out with. E.g. (projecting, equalling, gross hypocrisy:) 'You're a b*tch'. You immediately start to ham-actingly sing Alanis's, 'Ah'm-a b*tch, Ah'm-a lo-ver, Ah'm-a child, Ah'm-a- Mother', and refuse to stop, ignoring anything they say, like you're too lost in music, but keeping a 'come on - laugh!...where's your sense of humour!' grin on your face, and then, when you get to the last line, you shove your face into their ear as you sing, 'YA-KNOW-YA WOULD'N WANNIT ANY O-THER WA-YAY'). ....soooo many pop songs to choose from....endless fun. Just...no matter what they try, they cannot get you down. If anything, THEY'RE making you WORSE...HARDER to conquer! (Confusion City or what!) And it works even better if it represents a complete departure from how you used to react. To their paranoid, constantly core-insecure minds, that'll suggest they've LOST IT. So they'll try harder and harder, becoming less and less subtle (oh, lookie - she's there already!). But the Black Magic upon which they existentially rely, STILL isn't working! For them, this is like having your oxygen taken away. Enter existential-level panic and fury, equals, Narcissistic Rage. Now everyone's seen and heard their arse. If not, if they manage to keep it in, then - when you subsequently keep doing it, they'll self-combust (Narcissistic Collapse aka Petit Mort - nervous breakdown, basically...the Rock Bottom that forces them to have to get off their lazy bums and start climbing upwards, into the (Hazmat-suited) arms of a specialist therapist). IF, on the other hand, one CAN just Walk Away, then just limber-up and FAST-walk or -sneak, out of their 'forcefield'. This is what I'm saying (...probably haha - t'is rather late): Because of the nature of relationship, you HAVE to deal with it and properly. Either it can be upsetting hell or it can be a total hoot for you AND your whole fam. But the important point - for your kidlets - is that she and her problematic personality are non-empowered/disempowered. It's like spiders: Mum screams at the sight = kids learn to scream at the sight. Usually, boys are focusing on Dad just grabbing them fairly loosely in a 'hand cage' and chucking them out the window...except for if Mum screams long & loud enough (Mums win at that age). So don't worry. What you, the 'victim' do, is far more important at this point, than whether 'you're the Daddy'. But I really don't think you have to worry about ultimatum-ing Mike as - I'll say it again - actions. He tried a prod. And then waited with you. So, you could see like this: if she reaches out - HEEEEEE got away with it (ta-daaaa!)...'it' being, reprimanding her instead of staying silent, in the shadows, trying not to draw her attention. INNIT. (Ok? Better?) Since you benefit from and enjoy them - have another real-life incident of mine: "Grandfather"...would come round on a Sunday, once per month, bringing a bag of sweets for us kids. We took them, eagerly (because sweets iz sweets), but were well aware they were fob-offs - obligatories for keeping up appearances while never even asking us anything about our lives. He'd arrive in-time for the roast, eat it (noisily, scoffingly) (no consideration whatsoever), then immediately go to the living-room to watch the cricket...then fall asleep for hours to it....wake up, have a quick cuppa, then my father would drop him back to the train station. Yuh - cheers, Gramps or whoever you are. As part of his delightful personality, he was a giant Racist (as an excuse to have an easy target group to bully and blame for 'everything'), and bigot, generally. "Bloody Pakis....Bloody Blacks", on and retardedly on... (I know how GenZ's feel!). I was about 17, begun freelancing in London, by the time I'd Had Enough of Having Had Enough,...cocky as hell, zero tolerance of ahole eejits... So I walked in, switched it off at the set, said, 'Right, you! TODAY you're going to spend time with one of your Grandkids, even if just to prove you DON'T just come for the roast dinner, ((note)) like everyone accuses you of. We're going to play Draughts. What colour do you want - I'd like to be Black... He protested for a while but I stood firm ...in front of the TV set, Remote tucked in the back of my jeans, arms folded, boring my eyes into his...he could tell I meant business, so eventually he said, 'Pff, I don't care which bloody colour, bloody Draughts, (moan-grumble-moan)...go on, then... So I was Black and he was White. Forgot to tell him I was the family champion. Wiped the floor with him. Slammed my final counter down - looked up at him - said, 'Cuh!...Bloody Blacks,...eh!'. My father (my one, true, consistent ally, highly compatible, great fun, very supportive...the bar was set high) had to leave the room toute suite. Dad got his comedy 'serve' in the next day though (Monday) cos I remember I took a few days off to work with him in London. We were driving through Brixton in non-forecasted rush-hour traffic jams, barely moving, and this workman in his van was indicating to emerge into our queue. As we inched forward we (without words) both noticed no-one was letting him out, and it was just him, not a whole line behind him. He looked really stressed. So when it was our turn - my Dad did. I said, 'Ahhhhh, that was really nice and kind of you, Dad'. He replied, 'Weeeelll....you don't know...Maybe he's a struggling young husband, just found-out his wife's pregnant, desperate for work, but being made late, and unless someone lets him out, might end up losing the contract and being repossessed? (insert loads more examples)... You gotta think, see....'. I again said, 'Ahhh'. But then, he looked at me, grinned mischieviously, and added - 'PLUS it's not like he was Black'. (:D Touche!) (That's about as much as I can think to tell you in one sitting, I'm afraid, what with my being a permanent fixture here thus vulnerable to ID Theft profile-building) ...which reminds me: What does your knowing, sensible Teen say about her? Maybe the pair of you could team up whenever Mike isn't around? ...which also reminds me: another reason, potentially, for why MIL asked your hours and had a pre-prepared, (if you think about it) *non*-answer of a put-down: for whatever reason, she wanted to know when you tend not to be at home - or, alternatively, when you're home alone, without Mike. (Does Mike work outside or from home?) So when was this? Anyhoo - back to dealing with properly. There is never any choice, as far as I'm concerned. Rolling Over equals eventual brain-death (dementia) itself, unless cancer gets you first, meaning, very short-term gain (avoidance of pain and icky confrontation) for long-term pain (into agony into NUMB-ville or Robot-ville). Me, I'd rather have (very) short-term pain for long-term gain...lifelong. I want enough to live, in peace and harmony as much as realistically possible. Always did. I love the simple things - because I see in huge detail and depth. Plus, I suspect Narcs are put on for us as free, de-luxe gym equipment. I've thought it through to the Nth and it's the only thing that makes sense according to everything else in the world that makes sense. I mean - they always-always end up going down, that's part of the disorder-equalling-dysfunction aspect. Unless they have you to keep syphoning/stealing from, such as, ego-food (positive reactions or negative, no matter), and/or lazy convenience + freebies and/or actual predation for the purposes of being a complete layabout gigalo. But that 'Enabling' merely, futilely, prolongs said inevitable. They're self-saboteurs and self-destroyers....Losers...all die lonely or hated or worse, surrounded by The Nowadays Indifferent. Why? Because you can't go around picking on and pecking at people. (Not that anyone sane and reared correctly would.) Why? Because Life *is* People (and it's only ever a matter of time before a victim reaches the end of their tether). If everyone on the planet except you, suddenly disappeared, you'd VERY quickly turn insane. And without feedback, you wouldn't even realise. You'd just somewhere inside you, suspect, stuck in Cognitive Dissonance (Yes-No-Yes-No) - cuckoo! ...Unless you knew how to build relationships with animals, which Narcs don't (they don't like Needy entities full-stop, doesn't matter how many legs). Understand...your MIL has become malignant (from stealing other people's food, in combination with, moreover, never made to regurgitate) and lately has been degenerating further, into a Sociopath, but without a legitimate position of power! Trust me - if she somehow were made Prime Minister, within WEEKS we'd all be begging and wailing for Boris or Liz to come back! But she isn't ever going to be. All she has is a brood. And PS, she was narcissistically projecting when she called you lazy. Think about it, missus: "For "beep"'s sake, you're not a baby, you're SIX - work the washing-machine out for yourself, you lazy little tyke - whaddaya think I am - your servant?!", or, "so don't be so lazy, Timothy...anyway, Mummy's busy" (-again). Or - alternatively, "Uh!....(starts crying)....I'm sooo tired, I'm worried I might even DIE!......AND I've got a headache...". I.e. mummy's the lazy and/or neglectful one and baby has to parent her (google Narc Parent - Parent-Child Role Reversal, and, - ACONS (adult children of narcissists). Mike's not even a 'with it', genuinely New Man male, aka 'GenZ', is he! (...ignoring all the poor, brainwashed Andrew 'Hater-Tater' fans, OBVS). Did you never wonder? Did you think ALL men his age do their own clothes-washing and hanging? Where have you BEEN all your life? haha! (I know........Kids...the Natural, Original & Exclusively-Forgiveable Narcissists (helped by the fact you can just carry them to their rooms). Exhausting. TOO exhausting if you have to do ANOTHER full-time job as well, just out-of-doors:)). ....I mean - TELLING you that the flowers were just for appearances? No malignant narc Covert would EVER give away a clue that bloody blatent - no way! Not even to their target! They're as subtle as silk - the more subtle (disguised/hidden) they (and their intentions/methods) are, the cleverer, more superior and prouder they feel! - (whereas full-blown Bad i.e. Narc Psychopaths are as subtle as air plus have nowadays evolved BEYOND "mere" domestic-level despotism so are only an issue on the (legit or gangland) corporate level upwards ...until just lately, when corporate people have caught on and studied up...oops...NOW where do they go if they're fireable from there?...Oh, yes, of course: things like, parliament...with all the poor, GENUINE, VOCATIONAL MPs, but anyway - this isn't a general tutorial, it's about your Slo-Mo-Smother-To-Death-In-Law (smother, as in, long-term asphyxiate you). My point is: this was such a Narc-Spath thing to do: a "Tell/Reveal"....think dirty Flasher: they like to shock, disrespect, isolate, offend, aggress, belittle, repulse, unbalance, preferably traumatise, in-one. "Allverts". Like a bomb suddenly going off - that kind of shock (and paralysis). POINT AND LAUGH AND TAKE THE ALMIGHTY PISS, as goes for all Malignants. (Unless they're the type use their fists, of course; then just ucking plan and execute your escape with no messing.) If she were an Overt, she'd be doing it to everyone, everywhere. Check out Lily31's thread from about two-thirds down to see her Auntie's nightmare of a boyfriend and premature Fiance. There's beyond cocky and Antisocial for you. But SEMI behind closed doors (i.e. only the close family). PS: Does she lord-it and/or verbally snipe at Servers, e.g. restaurant staff, shop-owners, taxi-drivers...? And/Or flirt embarrassingly - even luridly - with them? Also, does she drive, and if so, is she sh*t at it but thinks she's fine and it's always the other driver's fault (or yours)? So...was she here-and-there 'funny'/cutting while you were dating Mike? At what point did she start to try to pick on you? What did you put it down to - or, what seemingly plausible excuses were presented to you by Mike/others? PS: Look closer and think harder: Is she girly-girly to cover up what otherwise would be a perceptible whiff, a subtle infusion, of 'strangely masculine' for a woman, either in the physical sense, behaviourally, or both? Anyway, I'm losing my place.... I decided I was fed-up with fighting to make time for here so as the forecast says "scorchio" again for tomorrow (we've just had a cool, rainy spell), I thought I'd stay awake all night and Zed It on the lounger all day tomorrow (under a big brolly, of course; Burnt Toast isn't my colour, dwahling). But I think I'm starting to float off and am finding it hard to keep on-point. Ah well, I don't mind if you don't. And if you do, it's too late, anyway. :D "I’m glad you seem free now from any negative people" Eh? Who told you that, then? You're joking, aren't you? There's only ONE of me and LOADS of Narcs!?! And - though they'll make-do with anyone if need be - they want us Empaths the most! And they can smell us a mile off! I've just got better and better and better at putting them off or fending them off or vibing them off - or just plain staring them off. Prime example: One sodding month in and I LITERALLY held an Eyeballing competition with a dangerous-level NSpath restaurant customer because he would NOT stop staring at me - deliberately being aggressive - and ignored the waiter's request to turn his chair around so that it faced HIS table (and 2 friends), rather than, *me*. Why? Because not long before that, he, out of nowhere, uninvited, sat on mine and my friend's table and hit on me and would not take the hint. Nor would not go away until I plainly had to say, 'Please go now - my friend and I haven't seen each other for years and wish to talk', then again, but adding - 'or I'm going to have to summon the manager'. So I Eye Arm-Wrestled him...showed him my muscles. It's all they understand, ultimately. (My friend started saying, 'My god!...', and, 'I can't believe this guy!', and, 'Do you need to change your cologne or something?!' (because it wasn't a first). But it worked. (Always did.) He thought again. Obviously, at-first he'd thought - too personable to be strong. Then he thought - Okay, maybe not... but now I want the challenge and to win. Then he thought - Er..... And then he thought: OMG, bigger than ME! (They only think they're bigger than normal-healthies.... reared in a Circus, reared with joke-mirrors, innit.) Tougher or Madder Than Them, that's what you've got to do. I do BOTH. I don't do Either-Or. I do both. And then some. And then they start grovelling for forgiveness just in case you've marked them and might follow them home or something. This guy left almost instantly and as he was passing the table, said a grovelly Sorry, which, of course, included their stock line: I was on-ly jooo-king. I, staring back hard again, replied - Yeah, and I was only laughing. Here's another line that stops them in their tracks whilst magically, instantly, 'sobering them up', btw: (said slowly and matter-of-factly/robotically): "Go ahead... - insult me again (or, 'hit me'), BUT... don't forget that at some point tonight you're going to have to fall asleep (*barely-there, sly, smug grin*). "You're MAD, you are!", they go, whilst insta-dropping their grip and getting as far away from you as they can (actions-actions). Answer after a beat: 'Only with you.......interestingly?'. Next comes the fake or real Discard (praise dee lawd). They try to get you when you're down, which includes, merely - HAVING A COLD! Or being distracted/heavily involved in something! Or laughing so much and so hard they think you must be drunk ("nobody's THAT ucking happy") (no, mate - just YOU). ...Just - NOT REMOTELY ON-GUARD. They KNOW they aren't in your league and wouldn't succeed, otherwise! Loads of Narcs, Loads of Malignant Narcs, WAY more Sociopathic Narcs. And Malignant Psychopaths (LOADS of bumping-off!). Truth is, they're a fact of life and always were, and yet, our generation were brought up to live in a group-delusional bubble, such as, Stranger Danger versus Santa Clause creeping into your room at night when you're the most vulnerable a human can be: unconscious. And anyway, events since reveal that today's "England" no longer exists, that it ceased to be in the 80s, beginning in the 60s. So going back is not an option. But I'm making my own private oasis and collecting other Empath diamonds ('United we stand, divided we fall') and teaching them Whack-An-Evil-Mole as I go so... :) Start with the man in the mirror; you'd be surprised how far your ripples reach. (Not the chocolate ones, obviously, those go in the secret hiding place haha.) But anyway - nope. I am constantly surrounded and oft being circled. No Magic Eye ("Are they?...Aren't they?), as I have Infra-red, X-Ray, Magic Eye specs, and am in-touch with my 'reet handy' (Good, Healthy) Psychopathic traits, but, definitely a never-ending game of Whack-A-Mole. Luckily, that's one of my fave arcade games (that and the 10p fountains) (and pinball, obviously) (what was the question again?).... Oh yes. Used to be one in every 6 people was a Narc of whatever degree. Now one in every 4. And (ostensibly!) 'Female' narcs/sociopaths are on the rise (or being reported more - probably both, and other factors). Trust me - you NEED this tournament. And so do your kids. You need to nip her (un)growth-spurt. I suspect she's degenerating into an N-Spath yet lacks any real status and power whatsoever to abuse and take advantage of/Use. Except for at Domestic level. Which you 'threaten' yet also (for the bored and unable to rise in rank, such as her(ish)self) yummily challenge. Just by being you.) So let's pick UP that 'Dumb Belle' that life obviously has laid out - for you, an obvious rebel and warrior (once you realise you're IN a war/battle, I mean), including Endurance Queen - and marathon-run with it some more, but this time making it work FOR YOU (and your wee bairns) because - once you've taken on one at THIS size and got the better of her (in a way that envigorates and re-fuels you and only you) - ....you, your kidlets, and your husband, will find dealing with any others that will cross any of you's paths (bad Engrish, solly), really kick-yerself easy. As for normal but still difficult people: a total breeze! You've only been enduring her. (That in itself is admirable, meaning, that in itself will have bee vexing the UCK out of her!) But pulling muscles through having carried her incorrectly - which is hardly surprising when she turns and keeps the lights off. And now - if you want one (say if you do - ignore the question if you don't, or, need time to think about it) - you have a coach. :) One that likes you *PLUS* despises NPD (especially when it's actually so pissing preventable, and meanwhile, such an unused thus wasted societal resource, you wouldn't believe it). _______________________ "They are gone from my life , but they are not." Not yet, no. "I’m awake again from a nightmare and it seems ridiculous. She’s a pathetic oldish woman that rationally I’m not afraid of , yet my irrational anxiety is through the roof" This is about primitive buttons being pushed, which are beyond the reach of reason (until you learn to to stretch that arm). You can't counter sanity with rationality anyway. Put another way: her effect on your mental and physical welfare is far from pathetic, THAT'S what it is. "Warning-warning, danger-danger, corrupt and harmful incoming data, cannot identify, cannot compute, and ow, now I've got an ominous headache". "Last nights nightmare - I’m trying to leave the house but can’t get a though the room without her being there." Like the spider at the centre of her web. "She makes up with Mike and I say to Mike , great if that’s what you want." (Not. As above. But he can have an extra five minutes.) "Then I’m shouting sorry to my children , she is back in our life." Did your dream show their reaction? "I wake up , breathless." Well, in future don't worry about it. You're in that zone where you're neither asleep nor awake and your conscious mind starts to think about and try to solve or 'try on' stuff it's not usually allowed to think too much about when you're awake (too upsetting). And because you're a tad awake, you get to 'watch the film' as you come up to the surface (awake). (Crikey, didn't I go on! Sorry about that - hope it's in the right order, etc. It's a good sign, though...means you got me really thinking and relating. In which case - why don't YOU write the book?) ____________________ PS: Don't worry - it'll be my pleasure to walk you up the entire Escape (from the Dungeon) & Recovery (out of the Complex) Paths to Freedom&ThrivingVille. I live here, I'm not going anywhere. I'm just "outdoorsy" and can be gone for 3 or so days at a time. The Spanish saying, "Manana", to mean, Later, now means never-untilsuddenlynextweektheycallyou5minutesfromyourhouse! Disorganised is not the word for it. (Gormless is...shh! LOL)

Hahahahaha! I've just gone onto ABCD's post, only to find you'd posted this there: "I’m Back. Sorry , does ABCD’s have a title. I’m struggling to find it 🙈. Thank you" ...meaning, you were ON his thread, asking where his thread was! :D ...like, going into the Post Office to ask the staff where the nearest Post Office is! ...Quite Monte Python-esque, that was. Nice to know I'm not the only techie duh-brain in the village, though. ;D Here you go - here's the magic link (as cites his thread title) to take you directly back there with one click (- it should open and download into a fresh browser tab): https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13622/proposal-ultimatum-am-i-overthinking-or-in-toxic-relationship (He's replied to you, by the way.) See you there, then? Or back here after? (That was too funny. People are always funniest when they're not trying to be, I find. Haaah...cheers for the giggle, I needed that.)

Don't leave us all in suspenders, Lisa? What's the latest - anything?

Inlaws can be something else and I'm a firm believer that if you're being treated unfairly or disrespectful, you have every right to keep your distance. No one has the right to treat you that way no matter who it is. You deserve the same respect that they would want. I don't blame you for feeling the way that you do, if you want out, make your exit. It's only going to get worse over time. These problems always escalate into something worse if you're not standing up for yourself. You have to stand up for yourself! Don't be combative but assert yourself in a gentle yet you "mean business kind of way". You'll get the respect you want but if you carry on not saying anything you're going to find yourself feeling the way that you do now. So it's totally up to you. What are you going to do? Fight or flight?