Advice please on how to deal with male colleague and jealous husband

Hi! I work with people and have to be service minded. I'm married. I made the mistake in the past when asking my husband for advice on how to deal with flirtatous customers. He has a jealous streak which I feel goes away and it can be long periods of time or short periods. Something triggers it that has nothing to do with me. It makes me sad. To me he is sensitive and he reads all sorts of things into my behavoir as suspiscious. I feel it when he's like that and then I feel as if I'm holding my breath some. I have left him once over issues we had (I'm not gonna get into that). It had nothing to do with me being into some other guy or wanting to be single so I would meet someone new. I was actually heartbroken when I left him, hurt and angry. I am now in a situation and been for quite some time but I feel it has escalated where one male colleague of mine (not single) is joking too much but in a flirtatous way with me and the way he is everyone hears he's doing it. I don't like attention like that. I'm always nice and polite to everyone and I'm stunned when he's like that. I don't know how to respond. I have never flirted with customers or male colleagues while in this relationship, marriage. Before when I was single I would not flirt because I wanted my work place to be strictly professional. My female colleague have been telling me from time to time about someone they then think are into me like that (romantically). They state it always as if it is a fact. I don't know what to say. I find it embarrassing. To me I look like everyone else. I have issues even with parts of my body. I'm not that good looking. I don't turn heads. I don't understand why this keep happening. It's not every guy, so far from it, but it is happening. I don't know how to deal with guys that are like this. What to do, please? Too I've been told in order to make my husband feel less jealous, insecure, to be honest about everything, but I'm unsure if I should be about this. He would show up at my work or be waiting outside of work in the past. If I say something about this I'm afraid he will get back to being jealous and he will do such things. I love him and he loves me. Beside from the jealousy we have a good life. What do I do? If anyone knows please let me know.

Hi Geelives and welcome! Sorry for the delay - I or someone else will be with you just as soon as we can. :)

(Just bumping you back up the board to keep you prominent)

(...and again)

Hi Geelives, Your situation is a tough one for me to give advice on, since I can only imagine how difficult it is to be a woman in this situation. You seem to be pretty happy with your relationship and are secure in it, and yet you have a partner who does not feel entirely secure, and a coworker who complicates everything and embarrasses you just with their own personality and the way they conduct themself. My first instinct would be to point out that you are in the service industry, and that you are dealing with the public and even that can be unpredictable and open you up to potential flirtations and other such nonsense. And it does sound like you have had issues on that front, so I am sorry. But it sounds like the bigger problem is dealing with this kind of behavior from coworkers, and I can entirely relate to that because I've often had problems with certain coworkers. Looking at things from the coworkers perspective, I guess there are some options you could consider: You could take this coworker aside and try to explain your situation to them, and see if they understand and are willing to change their behavior. Of course, thinking about some of my own coworkers and even friends I've worked with over the years, people often have their own unique personalities and can't change how they act unless they make a serious effort to change themselves. My one buddy had always said potentially rude and immature things and likely won't ever change that, it's just in his nature and that is how he has always lightened the mood in the workplace. My experiences with a lot of other coworkers has shown me that they can be downright cruel about things, and even if they act polite after hearing such a request from you, they will likely gossip and judge you and just be butt-wipes in general after the fact. I, myself, have been on the other side of this before and had a borderline unhealthy crush on a female coworker. What if this guy does actually sort of have a thing for you? It could become complicated. And I guess he could mature and move on from it if that's the case, but that could take who-knows-how-long. Fortunately, it's not sounding like that's your situation. Of course, there is always the possibility that this coworker will hear you and do their best to change course, and maybe that will be enough - for this particular situation. It won't change anything when it comes to other coworkers, new and old, or once again your customers. But it is an option. You could transfer to a different location with your job, if that's an option. Or apply to a different job. But that opens up a whole other can of worms because then you don't know what you're going to get at the new place. It might solve your immediate situation, but introduce you to other ones. I've done a bit of job-hopping over the years to try and fix problems in the workplace, and maybe it can improve some things but I can't say it's resolved much so far. One thing that might be helpful is finding, perhaps, a job where you work with less co-workers, on a smaller team, or a bigger team, or even on your own more. It's worth considering, but I get the impression your situation might not be so bad that you have to consider this option, yet. You could also try changing shifts, or working different hours if that is an option. You could try your hand in another department. Or, if there are supervisor positions available, you could go for a promotion and try taking on more of a management role, where you would have a position of authority over your coworkers and it would give you even more reason to ask them to keep it professional. I don't feel you should have to go that far and make all of this effort just to correct this issue, but it's a tool you could use if you think it aligns with what you want to do. I don't think you should overlook the other two obvious elephants in the room, however. Your husband's insecurity is still something of an issue. And, you seem to have your own issues with self-esteem or body dysmorphia. Maybe these are things that you should give more consideration and thought to, and not simply accept your current place with each of these issues. That's where I'm going to end my response for now. Hopefully that gives you some things to think about.

Hi Balance, thank you so much for trying to help me. I was about to give up on getting any responce. Thank you too so much for your compassion and understanding of my situation. When female co-workers has pointed it out to me in the past they have not given me any advice on how to deal with it. I know it spurrs things up. Female co-workers can feel that the guy favorites me because of it, not because how I interact or do my job. I have been told by female co-workers as well that they rather come to me if they need help with something. The women who has pointed it out to me that they see what's going on with the guy, I would say have stronger boundaries but at the same time they can create conflict when there does not have to be one. I've experienced female co-workers that has a mother instinct to them so when this happened when I was younger they got protective of me, which I appreciated. Always I want to pretend it is not happening or that it will pass on its own. it's gonna sound weird but all my life no matter what school they put me in (we moved around a lot and I had to change school a lot) it was always the same thing. They boys would detect me. I was never the popular girl in the class nor did I ever want to be, become one of them in their pointless chase of putting everyone else down just so they could feel better about themselves (as that was what it was all about, acting secure, bullying others who had insecurities, and saving themselves, not caring about anyone else). Over time no matter how small I tried to make myself there were those who started to like me, did not have to be in a romantic sense, but I've learned that I for some reason grow on people, not everyone, but it does happen. I figured that was the case with my husband, I grew on him. I was not suppose to, but it happened. I think in some ways he was not actually experienced enough, matured enough, to have a long lasting serious relationship, when he met me. There was always a reaction from others how good looking he was, so I know he had his options too, but one thing I knew by then is that men too can feel as if they're just meat, objectified, and locked in, framed in, as if they can't have other qualities to them or as if the other qualities they do have are not viewed as strong as they in fact are. I use to date someone extremely good looking guy, from the response of others, me myself too thinking that, and him too being aware of it, before my husband, and what happened is that no matter where we would go in our every day life, innocent places, he would get attention, which meant that I too would get attention. I don't like attention. I could tell by how the females were that they had already placed him where they thought he should be in the human race, they simply could not get or accept somehow that he was with me. It was as if that was somehow insulting to them, personally. Females I did not know. Complete strangers. Looking back I can't believe they would do that. I would never think of doing that to someone else. Not once did I ever sense anything in him responding to the attention, he was focused on me, us talking, or what ever. But he was aware of the looks. He was aware of the surrounding. I think he knew, just like my husband, how to play the game, and to some extent appreciated the compliments, from others. I've always felt as if everyone else knows how to play this game but me, but in another way I don't want to play it. I was terribly shy before. I know this shyness returned to me while dating the extremely good looking fellow. One time before we were to meet out I think I had anxiety. It was during that moment I decided I could no longer see him. I thought I was jealous too. I thought I can't go on living like this, it's going to be a nightmare. I could not go no place with the extreme good looking guy. It was as if others refused to accept other parts of him, his serious side, his intellect, what he was really interested in - it was about those things we connected. Had from the start. I guess I could not take others comparing us, I couldn't handle the mean girls. The extremely good looking guy did not take no for answer when I said I could not see him anymore, asking why. I know it was all my fault. I could not deal with it. My solution to it was to run. I get if he did not like me after that. He had done nothing wrong. The opposite. It was all me. Something similar happened with my husband, we connected the same way I had connected to the extreme good looking guy. When I was dating my husband I had somehow gotten further in knowing that what happened with the other guy was all down on me. My husband would tell me later on that he knew he could not come on to me like he could with others because he knew I would not respond to it, the way it was expected. He would say he was afraid to loose me before he got me. The only way he knew how to play this was by mostly trying to play it by my rules, that he thought were my rules. There's always been someone in his family that has made cruel remarks on how he's better looking or better at doing anything, really, than I am, always comments to make me feel as if I am not worthy of my husband, that there's been some kind of error, he should have found someone better. I got pushed down til I could not take it no more, one of the reasons I told my husband I wanted a divorce. He tells me he thinks that family member is an idiot, but at the same time they have a different relationship. I have a tendency to draw people in that have much more emotions, acting out more, which is the case with the male co-worker. I am more of an introvert, more careful, need to think things through before I can tell you how I feel about something. This got to be an issue with my husband when we would discuss or fight about something that he would act out much more than I did. I have tried to avoid the male co-worker since the last incident. I don't know if he gets that or if he himself felt he went too far in the moment, or possible if someone else told him to take it easy. That has been the only tactic I've used so far, to try to avoid. I will consider other options, thank you. I will try to work on myself, somehow, LOL.

Hey again Geelives, You sound in your sign-off as if you think Balance is done and dusted? Nuh-uh. He only said he was ending his response FOR NOW (which means, to give you your turn to respond to what he's written thus far). This isn't Quora where you post once and get one response. We're slow but we're good. :) Keep going with him - this is a good start. :) Plus, have a read of his own thread and you'll see he and you have an awful lot in-common, albeit he's further along that 'path' than you (- famous Chinese proverb: 'To know the road ahead, ask those coming back'.) (I'm just reading along. I'll only step in if I think something's being missed out.)

Hey to you too Soulmate! And thank you really :) I've tried to find the thread but am afraid I haven't as of yet . I have thought about what was written. I do understand the difficulty people are having when they develop feelings for someone they work with as there is no really immidiate escape, they got to go to work. I get that nobody in this world can help if their chemistry is just right. I always understood that could happen. To anyone. That you are not a bad person because of it. But that it is another to act on it. I get if that is difficult as well. I know stories of people going through this. I don't excuse infidelity. I suppose what I'm saying is that it's not always black and white. As for me and my husband I am surprised we made it so far, we were in so much deep water, way over our heads, both of us sensitive and showing all sorts of awful signs we were heading for disaster, when I left him. We then got each of us back into shape, mentally speaking, and continued on that path. I thought we were doing really good. I've forgiven him and he's forgiven me for how we were back then. Before. I think under any pressure we can all crack open, we're just humans, we do our best, but sometimes not even ourselves knows where we go wrong, when we crash and burn. We got this set back, this jealousy thing going, after my husband lost someone he loved dearly (and who loved him dearly). I would not notice he was jealous at first. He would make comments about that now that this had happened, he knew he would not be able to survive it/life, if I was to leave him too. I had no thought of leaving him. I tried to be as supportive as I could. Tell him I wasn't leaving. I have asked him what have I done to cause him to be jealous of me. He returns to saying I left him before, I could do it again. What if someone comes along? What if everything I felt was wrong about us before would return to me again? I would tell him we're grown since then. Our lives are not the same. We have made changes. We're good now. My fear is if I have now kept this from him, and he discovers it the wrong way, for example if the male co-worker does something at work when my husband is there, what will happen then? How will my husband respond to it? He won't trust meno more? I was told before that it was stupid of me to ask him what to do about guys that were flirtatious during my work hours, that me telling him that made him insecure, jealous. That I only had myself to blame. I suppose I always assumed he would not get jelous of me as I thought he was good looking, everyone telling me so. he's said he's always found me attractive, says he loves the whole package, me as a person. I would seek advice on how to deal with his jealousy expressing itself the way it did. I got confused by how to go forward. He was told to not act right away, but try to stop himself from having me under his control (checking my whereabouts or my cellphone, tracking me which only confirmed to him what I had already told him, where I was. He had done this without me knowing, before, and I had never done anything bad, but he still had that need to check). That reassurement. I was told too that I had to set boundaries but at the same time stay calm. I was honestly confused as to what to do. His need to check and how he would read things (the wrong way) began to frighten me. I know it effected my speach or me trying to type words. When it was really bad, I felt watched by him 24/7. I was afraid anything innocent could be read by him as something wrong. One time when I had read an article, gossip, news article, about another couple, he would ask me why I read that junk, was I thinking of leaving too? (There was rumor they were to split up). He was so jealous that any threat, such as an article, me choosing to read that, was enough. I thought if he reads that much into that, what else can he get in his head? I've been asked if he's been abusive, physically or threatening and he hasn't. But when he would get jealous like that, when he was trapped himself, I could tell he felt he had every right to check, every right to ask or accuse. Then as I would say no, it wasn't like that, he would say as if he trusted me only half the way, that it was OK, he just wanted to know, as I had not told him (I did not know I needed to tell him), he felt in his right to ask. When it would pass I would tell him how it made me feel when he got like that. There was then this part of him telling me he could not relate to that as he felt he welcomed the other way around, that everything had to be in the open, that I could do the same to him, but I did not feel no need to. If lets say he was to go out and meet up with a friend or two. I did not feel a need for him to have his picture taken or me having validation to know where he was he said he was. But I would get that the other way around. He would try to act as if he wasn't doing it. One time my friend who knew nothing about all this was ready to take a photo of us. I know I smiled at the photograph, but on the inside I felt sad, scared and violated in some way. Him pressuring me to take that photo was not fun, was not innocent. It was him checking the photograph to see what was in the background. Was I where I had said I was with my friend. He says he appreciates that I talk more these days, that we have this ongoing open communication, that he's missed that, a lot. How we use to be before. Us discussing things or if we do have a fight, they are different these days. In our past I would realize it was no use saying anything because he would simply take charge. I would hate the thought of knowing I would have to bring something up because I feared he would react like that, hours or days of it. He would complain he could not communicate with me, that I shut him out, which made him work himself up more, out of frustration. He said that it was as if I was behind a wall. He couldn't get to me. I know now that if I am overwhelmed and if someone is coming on too strong I may look as if I don't care, but I do. He says that me looking like that scared him. I've been asked how I feel when that happens. I feel numbed. I feel overwhelmed. I don't know how I feel, really. I'm having trouble findint them, feeling them. This makes me slow. It has always been his feelings that take charge. We've never had silent treatments any of us, we've always kept communicating about other things. I've tried to tell him I'm not doing it on purpose. But when he's been like that I feel he or we are not ready for the next step. He won't hear me. He's all wrapped up by everything he feels and thinks. The other things we could always still communicate about did not bring us closer, but it was still a form of trust, and a form of safety, that no matter what we still had that. We were still always kind to one another. I'm afraid too if the male co-worker starts something that my husband will tell me why I did not put an end to it before. If I go the same way, respond the same way, I do him when he says I'm behind the wall. I can't really say what the male co-worker is up to, I think it is a personality trait of his the way it went. I don't really know what to say about it.

I will try to respond to you later today. I read your first response, but not Soulmate's reply or the latest entry. I'll probably re-read it all later on. I feel like I have to sneak around using this website because I don't want people in my life knowing I frequent here. I have been visiting here since about 2015, (under another username at first) and so far have apparently been able to maintain my privacy and anonymity. My girlfriend has been making it difficult lately, and this really isn't any of her business. I'll respond to as much as I'm able to tonight. I should have a little more time to do so today.

Hey Geelives, Well, I'm caught up on the thread now. I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get back to responding to this one. Unfortunately, I might only have like half an hour to give you more feedback, but I'll try my best for now. So I think the thing is, you really, clearly, love your man and you are happy with what you have. You realize it isn't perfect, but also that nobody is - we all have flaws and shortcomings. I do, my girlfriend does, and any other would-be partner you might have if you and your partner broke up would as well. That all comes as a packaged-deal with everyone. Maybe your husband's jealousy and insecurity does go a little overboard. Maybe not. I think part of it is, we decide what baggage we think we're comfortable with when we start dating someone new, or else try to accept it. The other part is, we don't actually know how deep that baggage runs or how things will actually play out when the situation comes to a head until it actually does. I had more written here, but I feel like I was going off-topic too much. And now my girlfriend is talking to me on the phone about work and I can't think to really answer. Okay, I'm sorry. I will try to respond again another time.

Here you go, Geelives (Balance's thread): https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13862/seeking-general-life-feedback

Sorry Geelives. I was trying to think of more to say in response to your situation, but the inspiration hasn't really found me for this one yet. Soulmate might be out for a few days, but me and other users here might try to keep responding to threads. I keep coming back to this whole point of, basically, you choose what you're willing to put up with from a partner. You choose to deal with them and their baggage they bring. I'm not even sure if it's accurate. Or if it's entirely truthful. I think my current relationship is starting to show me that there are definite breaking-points, and places where you're bound to clash over and over again over the same issues. So my ex-wife, we had our highs and lows. I think our age difference was a big issue, and one that we couldn't really bridge. A lot of the problems on my side, not to justify it, is just that I had never been with anyone before her and so I was just kind of learning as I went... And what I wanted grew and changed with me. Really, I'll say it right now - the whole thing was my fault. I shouldn't have initiated the relationship with her, but I was lonely and depressed, and I just wanted to be with someone and to get out of the situation I was in. For her part, my ex was often controlling and unfair about the dynamics in our relationship. She also had some pre-existing childhood traumas, which I only learned about as the years went on. I still can't really say for sure whether or not she looked at the world through a more or less optimistic lens than me. She couldn't get over a lot of her own personal stuff, though. I felt like I was more adaptable than her, for sure. At the end of the day, I just don't think she could live her life like me. And that's okay. She was the bigger person, and she chose to end that relationship. And at first that really hurt, but I realized that I was giving up on my own life and my dreams to continue to be with her - just so I wasn't alone. I still don't feel happy with my life. But there were four especially memorable years there where, for a little bit, it kind of felt like I had grown the most as a person in my life. I had more confidence and independence than at any other point in my life. Not all at once, but eventually. And I didn't realize it at the time, but now I see that it's much better to be alone and live life on your terms, than to be with someone and to have to bend your life to their terms.

Thank you Soulmate I've read through it and found it interesting , I hope everything works out. I think personally that before you set your mind on how to go about something is the most confusing time, you do your weight on what works and works not in life, where you've been, why you feel this way (or that way). When you do know, when your mind is set you truly know yourself and you know your boundaries. You let nobody or nothing stop you from going there. You can be in a difficult spot at the time but by that time once you've decided it is as if you have already left, you have this shelter. They or what ever can't get to you. Compromising in a relationship has to go two ways, not always, but it can't always be one sided, you can't give up too much of yourself. I think if you love someone you want them to feel complete, always. Have that balance in life but more important within themselves. Just some thoughts I had after reading. The only way through that is open communication but in order to have a successful one at that both has to know what they truly want, but still take consideration and show an interest in what the other person wants. It can't be you want what I want or you're wrong about it, there are different perspectives, many ways you can look at something.

To Balance :) Thank you so for getting back to me, I understand you are busy (and have a life) and I do appreciate it very much. I was frozen in a way in my thoughts and actions the days after. I was too very busy which I think helped me in one way to get distance. My old fear came back. It is contagious this thing. My husband gets jealous (scared) and in return as a response to it I get scared. I was even scared writing back here on the forum because if he was not feeling well (and if I had made the decision to not tell him about what goes on at work) and he read my words that I would have a bigger problem on my hands, if he had a bad reaction to it. From what I've been told he had OCD jealousy (or something of the sort) caused by anxiety and other difficulties in life prior, causing it. I was advised to leave him straight away and treated as if I was a weak woman for staying (only a professional knew differently and told me so). I had gone through everything there was, red flags, I could tell he held his jealousy, OCD, from threatening me, beating me. There was a lot of things he did not do to fit the profile. I know our issue in the past. We did not have the communication skills we needed when discussing or fighting in the past. Once we got the keys, once there was a breakthrough in reacting differently we could move forward and connect. He would tell me he had always had periods when he would be effected by his jealjousy. He did not want to confess to me he was jealous of me so he would find ways to still feel safe, in control by sort of being jealous of me behind my back. There were times when I could tell by the look in his eyes that something was up but I did not know what. Much later I was told he had spied on me when I had gone out. I could tell when he felt threaten by something (as in me reading about celebrity couple breakting up) that he would get instantly so irritated, not him wanting to discuss it, but saying only a few words followed by him leaving the room. Once his irritation wore off there was then sadness and insecurity. His OCD jealousy has always been a difficult subject as he would say or do these things when being effected by it (anxiety), then walk away, and then not wanting to talk about it. His dad had/has need for control as well, anxiety as well. I could tell my husband's ways was something he had learned from his parent's interaction, but in a lots of other ways he was/is not like his dad. IN a way it felt as if my husband would tell me these things (give orders) when he could not handle it no more, he could not handle himself any more, but to me it always came as a shock, I was stunned, scared by it. He would say to me that he knew and had no doubt that I would not flirt or flirt back if some guy did. His fear was more if I had thoughts of leaving him that some other guy, flirting with me, would win my heart, would be that last push I needed to get up and leave. He would tell me that he knew I was a nice person and how I would conduct myself was that of me just being nice. But he had this idea that I was most likely too nice for a woman, surroundings, and that some guys would use the opportunity to their advantage, take a chance. There was never no trespassing in them touching me in any way, but what they said and how they conducted themselves was without a doubt them flirting. I honestly think one of the reasons why my husband was serious about us getting married was the rings, he said he wanted rings on my fingers, he would chose rings you can't miss. There was a time in my life I could not wear the rings, but he would not stand for it and have them fixed. If I would forget to put the rings back on after lets say I had prepared a meal, using my hands (taking them off) he would be there right away, asking why I took them off, where were they. I always thought that was cute, but I did not know he had the OCD jealousy. He says he believes he will feel more secured in the relationship the more time that passes after our reconsiliation. If I feel low he thinks straight away it has to do with me wanting to leave him again. Me then telling him no, this happened, or I don't know, it's been a long day, but it's not you, I love you, then makes him feel more safe. He has told me he feels bad about a lot of things where he knows he did me wrong, what caused me to leave, and before why I was as unhappy as I was. He says he feels more bad about it now when he gets it, when there was a breakthrough. He had defense mechanism before. It was very difficult to break through. It was as if he had to crash and burn before he would realize. Before when I did leave him he did not think we had it that bad. I was honest with him why I left, the issues. To me it was still a "nice divorce" as in us still being kind to one another. I think that was the part of us that had never stop to love each other. He said he was deeply unhappy to realize that I was way ahead of him, this time, in wanting to close our chapter. Ready to move on. I did not think I could get over everything that had happened, as that too had a way of returning to me. Today I feel as if it is another life because we have changed so much and for the better. I am not afraid that I will return to the old me and say I'm done with this. I feel it is sad that his grief came at a time like this but on the other hand that's life, as ugly as it is sometimes, and at least now I stand on steady ground and want to function as a support. I've thought about the strange situation with the male co-worker, what to do. I watched his conduct days after. He has changed. He does not flirt at all. He kept away, at a distance, he's not done before, after what happened. Lately when he has looked me up and we're alone he does not flirt, he keeps himself short and professional but kind and quickly take off. Ive thought of his wife too. I know when he's on a roll that she's been embarrassed by him, but it has not been a question then of him flirting with anyone. I'm thinking someone must have told him or he realized it himself he went too far (I still don't know what he wsa thinking but I konw when he's on a roll he's on it, I think with all his jokes, all his emotions, increasing, he's impulsive. He don't get it til it's too late). I have thought about how strange it was for him to act that way surrounded by other colleagues. Not as if he was like that with me alone. Anyway things are back to normal, the way they should be. I have not discussed this with anyone as I don't want to make a big deal out of it, everyone's concern. Who knows in that moment that he was in for a split second he might have forgotten himself him thinking I was his wife. I'm gonna continue to pretend it did not happen. If something like this do happen again in the future then I have to do something about it, but as for now I let it slip, I think he got the message he went too far, and this was all too strange, by how I did react. I have not yet decided if I should say something about it to my husband or not. I don't want to make the OCD jealousy return big time. Now as it is fading away I hope it continues that way. There's been no gossping about it around me, not that I am aware off. I hope not. I hope all of this goes away. I have thought about that if the male co-worker or who ever in what ever moment decides to be flirtatous to me when my husband is around or hears of it that it should not matter, because what matters is how I conduct myself, how I respond to it. If that is not good enough, then nothing is.

Hey Gee/Balance, I haven't read everything as yet but - to help you clarify/recall for us all: ((My double bracketed comments. And fyi, this is an AI-generated response... in which case, 'Rah-rah' AI for its accuracy and comprehensiveness there! HOWEVER, it's used bad grammar, look (*)... 'Tut-tut-tut'...)) _______________________________________________________________ AI Overview Learn more Clinically ((if it's having that much effect - even spying on you(!) - then it's definitely a clinical matter) (and must drive you up the wall, I imagine!)) , jealousy manifests in two primary forms: obsessive jealousy (often associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder) and delusional jealousy (a subtype of delusional disorder, sometimes called Othello syndrome), both characterized by irrational and persistent suspicions of infidelity. Here's a more detailed breakdown: - Obsessive Jealousy: Characterized by recurrent, intrusive thoughts and compulsive behaviors related to *concerns about a partner's infidelity*. Shares similarities with obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD). Individuals with obsessive jealousy may feel a need to constantly monitor their partner's activities and seek reassurance about their loyalty. - Delusional Jealousy (Othello Syndrome): Involves fixed, false beliefs *concerning a partner's infidelity* that are resistant to reason or contrary evidence. A subtype of delusional disorder. Individuals with delusional jealousy may experience intense paranoia and may act on their delusions, potentially leading to dangerous situations. Other Considerations: While both obsessive and delusional jealousy are forms of pathological jealousy, they differ in their underlying psychopathology and treatment approaches. Delusional jealousy is a psychotic disorder and should be treated mainly with antipsychotics, while obsessive jealousy resembles OCD and should be treated with SSRIs and cognitive-behavioral therapy. It's important to note that jealousy, in general, is a complex emotion with various expressions, and not all forms of jealousy are pathological. _______________________________________________________________ So which is it, would you say - or roughly, what mix of both (either as a percentage or on a scale each of 1-10)?

Re the bad grammar - did you see it? It's not 'concerns about their partner's infidelity'. That suggests they're concerned about the act of infidelity the partner's already committed. It should be, concerns about their partner's fidelity (i.e. whether they ARE being faithful). ..."Sshhhtyooo-pid robots!", LOL.

I would say you're right, and at the end of the day the only person you have control over is yourself. You can't be held responsible for others' actions. It's a good sign, too, that the coworker has backed off and changed lately. There could still be some attraction there, who knows for sure, but at any rate he has apparently realized that he crossed some boundaries and is re-establishing them. All is good in the neighborhood, at least for now! I think jealousy and relationships, and all of that sort of thing can get very confusing and complicated. With another individual, suddenly it's not only your view of how the relationship should be, but you and your partner's.

Yeah-but-no-but... Your views of how the relationsip should be, have to match.

Hey Soulmate and Balance, thank you, once again, I would go with obsessive jealousy then, but I can't really say on what scale it was or is at. What I could compare it to were list of things I knew he had not said or done to me that are red flags (ways to control someone, physical violence, threats). The background story of the OCD is that I discovered when we started living together that he wanted the home to be cared, runned for, looking a certain way. His parents home was just like that. There were also high demands on how he took care of himself, what he ate and did not, drank and did not, and he was quick to comment, if fo example my weight went down or up. It was as if nothing small or big went unnoticed. I came to realize much later that one of the reasons why he picked me was because I was adaptive and honestly did not care about the things he did so it was fine by me to have it run his way. Over time I began to have this feeling as if he and I were in a race and no matter how much effort I put in, how fast I tried to run to be beside him, I couldn't. I suppose I wanted to be his equal as in me being him, if he was a female, lol, which to me then meant that I would be good enough. What were his reasons to be this way were fear, anxiety. One other thing I could look back on was when I got hospitalized for a pretty long period of time that it triggered his need for control. He would somehow make it work so he was by my side day and night. There were times when I knew visitor hours was over when I thought I still saw him in a corner, but then I thought I must be hallucinating or dreaming (I had after all been given heavy medication that could cause that). It was only one particular morning I remember that I woke up with him saying goodmorning, his face close to my face, when I felt a drop of water coming off his face, that I realized he must have washed his face just before, and he could not have done that back home. Truth was he would stay over at the hospital where ever he could, sitting up or be on the floor, he did not care for no bed. I would tell him before my condition got as bad as it did that he had to continue living as usual, as much as he could, because I knew this could take forever and it was good if he got positive energy from example doing things he loved instead of being with me in the hospital. I was physically weak so my exhaustion from that would not make me a good companion. Because of the state and medications I would go in and out of a state where I couldn't keep track on how he was doing. I would say that he did show signs of a guy who needed to be on top of things. He was as deeply involved as one can get in my medical treatments and ideas of treatment. He knew everything. He would tell me to say no or yes to this or that. He was of a suspiscious nature. I understand it is difficult for others to define in such circumstances what is normal and what is not, but I would say that I was aiming to please him felt I owned him that, my selfesteem had gotten a serious blow, and so I would say yes or I would say no to things that I would if it was just me and me making the decision say yes to. There was definitely one thing I knew I needed to say yes to, but I said no to, just to look good in his eyes. Someone, I think that was a counceler, missed signs of him being a controlling partner and would tell us that we seemed close. Lookinng back I can't believe the counceler did not request to have some time with me alone, but then again, as he was always there would be asked to leave. But then again by that time he had already told me he did not trust that particular person, profession, so I could have been already so influenced by his strong will that it wouldn't work. At the time because of the physical pain and the fog I was in because of the medications my reaction to what had happened to me that landed me in the hospital in the first place came later. Then it was surpressed as his strong will was then to have me up and running thinking that was the only way forward. Because of what had happened, which I blamed somehow myself for,or my body, rather, and how good everyone told me he had been to me during this period, I felt as if I owned him. As he was a better person than I was. I would say my self esteem was bruised, making me weaker than before, and that made me more easy to control. One day I told him that I would no longer have him as my person that the hospital could call to and his reaction to that was just...wow. I would make other decisions as well all in my aim to improve my self esteem because honestly our relationship had begun to look more like a big brother-little sister type of relationship and I needed to get myself back in one piece, the way I had been before. Anyway, it was during that period of time when I realized stuff about anxiety and need for control, the OCD, how his ways of handeling these things were ways he thought were good ways to handle the anxiety he was feeling, but it wasn't. It wasn't the cure. gotta go now but will write more in future ahead.

When you lay things out in this way, it does seem a bit more concerning. I am almost picturing your partner being the sort of guy who makes decisions for the both of you. But anyway, that's just the image I'm conjuring up in my head while imagining your dynamics. I could be far off from the reality of things where he's just someone who needs well-established boundaries and needs to hold a strong sense of masculinity in your relationship. It does sound obnoxious when there's a guy who has to have everything just as it was when he lived with his parents, but some people are like this. I guess when I think about it, to some extent I am too. Like, I guess I like a certain level of order and cleanliness that some women don't have. My mom was a clean-freak. But I've also never been THAT obsessed with germs. Of course, it's possible growing up with that level of cleanliness shaped me. I'm sure to some extent it did? Again, we decide what we are willing to put up with from another person in a relationship. Everyone has baggage, and every relationship has its points of give and take. For you, maybe you have accepted these terms for this relationship. It doesn't necessarily mean you always will accept these things. People can change, feelings can change, and what you want or need from a partner can, too. But at the same time, you do also have to be reasonable and realize that nobody is perfect, and there are reasons why you chose this person to begin with. It might be bonkers to just throw everything away.

Hey Balance, I do love him very much and have no thought of throwing him away. Yes I do think it is just how you put it, that you are used to things being the way they are from your family home and runned that way. That's then your normal. You don't question it. Then there is the confusing match of what is creating us as if it is genetic or our surroundings or both. Because you grow up with your family it gets all tangled up and you can't say which is what. All you know is it is. when he was the way he was when I was hospitalized I thought he was pushing himself too hard. I could tell he wanted to take control of a situation that was out of his control. I felt sorry for him. I felt too very loved by him. I was weak for the first time during our relationship and leaned on him. A lot of things began to effect my self esteem. I finally realized I had to do something about it, for my own sake, to get therpay. One of the issues was then that he did not want me talking to nobody but him about how I felt because he had this secret abondenment issue. He was afraid as we did have problems that I would be adviced to leave him. I hardly ever mentioned him during my lessons, but it was during that time that I began to for real see a pattern of what anxiety can do to you. He came from a home without the boundaries I had grown up with. For instance, opening up any letter that were mine, if I was on the phone with a friend, had closed the bedroom door were I was at (to me that was a signal I wanted to have a private conversation with my friend) he would open up that door, and throw himself on the bed, lay beside me, going through his phone. There were things happening when I felt that I could not tell him. When I thought maybe he did not see these signs. Did not know what they meant. But looking back on some things he told me he did know. If I was to spend time with a friend he would ask me all kinds of questions what we talked about. He was afraid I would be influenced to leave. I would most time never talk about him and if I did talk about him I did not talk about him that way, to make him or us look bad. It was as if he was way ahead of me thinking I would leave when I didn't. He had family and friends etc and I was not like that, in return. When I would tell him I thought we needed help, talking to someone to help couple's out, therapy, he refused. For a long time, way too long, I did things his way, not seeking help, hoping it would go away. What did happen instead is that I was fighting this mental battle where it was always returning to me, making me weaker than the time before. I couldn't beat it. He could tell how I got because I would distance myself and need more time alone. I would sleep. A lot. I did have anxiety but it was not a big deal and at first the depression came along it came alone. I only later found out that it was a normal reaction to everything that had happened, starting out with the periods at the hospital, that my mental state would be effected by it. As I was physically weakened and because of the medications my reactions were not seen as alarming back then. I didn't feel it like that back then. It is only later I've learned that it is only after you've been through everything, let say you survived a heart attack or you beat cancer, that you are then hit with depression. To others this make no sense as the danger has passed. You are suppose to celebrate. Be happy. The hospital knew this. This was why they offered me help. It was not in his nature to ask for help or receive help. Only to give you help. Do things for you. He had taken on so much responsibility (mine too) that I wondered how much longer he could carry this on. He would never complain. That made me feel bad too. His only comment back then was that he couldn't believe it, his only thought was that I was too young to die, young people like this don't die, we had just gotten started. We were suppose to be happy. Safe. I had a period at the hospital when I told him he should end things with me and go out there and have a life, find a new love. I was pushing him away. I would tell him I would have no kids in the future, he could forget about that, and for him to pick a woman to have a family with. What ever I said to him, he said he didn't care. He said he was staying. He said this isn't you talking. He said he didn't care about the kids. If that wasn't meant to be it wasn't. I have later felt bad for saying those things to him. The ugly pattern that I had was to push away and to run and hide. Me thinking I did not deserve him. Or I couldn't deal with the situation. I knew I loved him so very much when I was saying these thigns to him. I think I was out to punish myself. I needed as a way to improve my self esteem and confidence to take my responsibilities back. I needed to grow up. I felt more like a child than ever before, and I was suppose to be more of an adult than ever before. It wasn't fair. Not fair on him. That was when I got the picture he was not letting any of it go. He would tell me he did not want me physically or mentally worn out, and besides he felt fine, he thought he could do everything, always. He was using my vulnerabilities against me. I would tell him he had to distinquish between what my body and mind was going through back then to how it was now, and let me do my part, I could do it. But it wasn't only that he was protective. It was that he wanted things done his way. There were times when he did agree to let go of something but always throughout he would still not let it go, trust me. Things had to be done according to his plan. I would tell him all roads leads to Rome, let me do it my way, look the other way til I'm done, then you can look, it's the same result. I felt very much supervised. I never cared how he did things as long as it was the result we were looking for. I have been told that a perfectionist never choses a partner that is way off on the other end of things. When he would describe me it was obvious he did not think I was way off, or else he would not have been attracted to me. But I was no perfectionist. I knew when to stop. He did not stop when I did. I remember I could not tell anyone about our issues because to everyone who "knew" us he was Mr Perfect, he was dreamy, he was the kind of husband you would want. I was the one who was lucky, ungrateful. The bad woman. Looking back I still don't know how I got him, how he got hooked. It was as if I was in this competition but did not know I was, in the beginning, or when we got to the middle part. I still did not know. I realized it was part of his own protection that people could not get too close to him, including women. In one way we were close. In another we weren't because he was regulating that on how he communicated and how he got during arguments and fights between us. He said he knew he was doing it, causing this distance between us, but it terrified him that I would get even closer to him, in another he knew that was in my nature to be close to the people I loved and cared for. I didn't have an issue with that. He had. He said he wanted to but he couldn't and then that frighten him into thinking I would have enough of it and leave. I remember seeing other women fall for him not being attainable. This when we weren't a couple. They would bend themselves backwards. For the first time I realized him being "mysterious", being strict but still being kind was working it's magic, all on it's own. I can still see that happening, perhaps were you least expect it. But when I was around those days before when we weren't a couple as of yet, he was changing, he was tender, humble, he was making jokes, friendly, he was doing what ever he could to make me feel comfortable. He was different with me than he was with others. He wasn't playing a game with me. There were games going on. I know one time we were to meet up a whole gang and I remember us spotting each other. We were like two children, embracing. It was like There you are my best friend! I could tell us getting serious caused reactions. I was not paying attention the way I guess I should have. It was not so much part of my personality to be ahead of things, to plan things, I would take things as I got along. I was always busy. I didn't think too much. I had this philosophy that most things work out on their own. That getting to know someone takes time. I thought when he would ask me, take the next step into our relationship that it was only natural, that that was what a guy was suppose to do. The way we had both been taught. This is how you are going to act. We would take the next step when he decided we would. He said had he followed his own thoughts on it he would do things sooner but he was afraid that would be him moving too fast. But he said he knew. He knew it soon afer we first met. I knew women who were frustraded with their partners as they weren't getting what they wanted from them when they needed it, taking that step or steps forward. I was always comfortable somehow knowing what we were were enough, no matter. He would say those days he felt comfortable too but he knew or felt we had to proceed. He said there were times he forgot as he saw me as his best friend and partner all in one, that he forgot the romantic side of things. It was only much later when we were in so much deep water that the other him, the guy I could tell he became, around these other women, was a guy who by his own words wasn't the type to want to have a woman so close to him, to be commited like that. I only knew he was so serious when he was talking to me about us getting married. Him saying he would only marry once. That this was a huge deal to him. When we were divorcing he would say he would never remarry, he would say, he would go back to how he was before me. I could tell by his surrouding before we got serious and well, after too, that he was moving in an environment where it was much flirting and infidelity going on with the people around him. He says he thinks that has been an impact as well as him knowing how easy, frequent it is. I could tell when my own self esteem was not doing too great that it had an effect on me to be around that, as it was my nightmare all over again. I think no matter what, no matter how I dressed the part, I was still always this nerd (and I love being a nerd) and other people's opinion of us were their own prejudices. What kind of gal the dreamy guy should be with. What kind of guy this nerdish woman should be with. Us interacting differently I suppose then what other's expected us to. What had connected us from the get go were our conversations, the subjects, our sense of humor. Sure, it was physical attraction as well, I can't deny that, but to me, even if nobody would believe this, did not play such a major part. It had been the same with the other guy I was seeing before. We didn't connect that way that others expected to happen. They both are humans and have different parts of them, the inside and outside that make them them. The thing is when you feel good, you have this shield against all that, others prejudice and ideas, and all the superficialility in the world. It's when you're weakened you're letting that stuff in wher it don't belong. I remember there were few events we had go to but we did not communicate before, my husband and I, and when we got there, separately, we realized we were different looking from other couples. I had my own style in fashion and so did he. Other couples would dress pretty much the same, you could tell they were the same. They belonged. Times when people had no idea we were a couple or they couldn't make us out. He did not like those things, events, anyways, and I realized we were as off as we were because of that too and I did not get what was going on with him. He didn't tell me. We did not connect the way we always did. That use to frighten me because it was then as if he set off this air to him that he was available. It was only in different sets that he would point out, very much so, that we were a couple by him physically touching me, being close to me, talking to me, but on these others events he was off on his own, socializing with everyone but me (or so it felt like). I was getting all sorts of inputs that he and I were different types. That we didn't belong. When I wasn't feeling well mentally this was being blown out of proportion on my part. One time I know he would say after an event that I would kill in another guests dress. He would tell me that he just once wished that I too would realize my value. I said I did, but I did not want to wear maybe that type of dress because I did not feel comfortable in it. It wasn't me. He was saying he just thought I was way better, and way more beautiful than I realized. I would take that as "So you are ashamed of me, that's it? There's nothing wrong with how I dress. I like to dress this way. If you want a woman dressed that way - go to her, then. Chose her.". He would say I was missing the point. He would tell me Look, this issue we're having is because we have different backgrounds. It was getting to me that his family and other people knowing the family they were dressing the same ways when there were no dress code, really. I felt as if I had stepped into this world were I didn't belong. There was always, always this hunt for perfection and I could tell how it effected him, and in return how it effected me. He wanted to decide, to monitor my looks, my clothes, my weight. He could tell more about my weight than I could. If I slipped and lost weight or the other way around he was the first to know before I did. I felt him watching me as I ate, what I ate, how much I ate. I could not relax and eat dinner with him. If we were to work out I felt just as monitored. I became aware in a total different way than ever before of my body and it wasn't good for me. It wasn't good for us. Physically no matter what, critique or praise coming from him, I was moving away from him. I know I did not even want him to hug me because in my head he would then maybe feel what ever was wrong then with my body. What ever project we were suppose to do together, as a team, did not work out because he wasn't a team player, in that sense, he would take charge and monitor. He would go through what ever he could, my bag, to look for evidence that he did not think I was eating right. I don't know what he thought I was on, diet pills, but I wasn't. Him going through my stuff like that was invasive act on his part. One time he did find something to keep my blood sugar up, something I've always had just in case, and he wouldn't believe me when I said what it was for. No, you take this instead of eating something, don't you? Me telling him, no I take it just in case, I have to. It wasn't enough. He was always suspiscious. He said he would trust me but truth was he only trusted me to some point but not the rest and he was like that with everyone. I think there are two ways when you start to feel unsafe, insecure in your relationship, to react. My reactions would be to "run", to distance myself. His reaction would be the opposite, to come in closer. To monitor me in any ways he could in ways to find himself closer to me or to get that reassurement. His ways was through digital devices. This was why too it was difficult for me to spot that he was suffering from jealousy because he was not acting the way you would think. Anyways that is in the past and we've done so much work on the relationship and our selves. We got through it. I am only hoping I am continuing on the right track so I don't mess it up. I am happy the male co worker got what ever he was suppose to get.

Hey, Geelives! I think Balance is busy collecting his thoughts at the mo - or was, last time I looked. As for myself: please see my explanation for my own longer-than-anticipated absence on CreativeNick's thread (click this link): https://www.peoplesproblems.org/showtopic/13848/am-i-wrong-what-should-i-do#jumptobottom So if you're okay waiting a bit until either of us log back in, that'd be 'muchly' appreciated. :)

Hey Geelives! Thank-you so much for your patience (that, clearly, you've had stretched over the years). Reading all of that... It's not good news, I'm afraid.... Because it's NOT just Obsessive Jealousy, is it. The guy also CONTROLS you... uses your dread/fear of his having a bad reaction (having CREATED that "Walking on Egghshells" scenario) in order to deter you from displeasing him again and having to suffer his tantrums again. Meanwhile, he's the one oppressing and constraining you from normal rights and activities. Maybe the reason he's "obsessively" jealous is because he's doing the usual from the Narc Playbook: he's the one constantly cheating and getting away with it, therefore, as it's so easy for HIM to get away with it, the same applies to you, so why would YOU cheat too? (They're allowed to cheat, you're not. The plethora of rules both spoken and unspoken in your little society of two, apply only to YOU...whilst he can do as he pleases, thanks to said Negative Reinforcement, whether spoken or unspoken (acted-out). Sorry. That's not a marriage. That's, being someone's captive (and slave). He has all the rights (including ones he shouldn't) - you have none (including ones you absolutely should). I mean - MONITORING YOUR PRIVATE COMPUTER ACTIVITY??? Telling you what to say/not say to the hospital staff?! Constantly commenting on your weight??? Opening your mail!!! And so much more that you'll find listed in the DSMV and all over the web these days?! And oh, yes, he HAS been threatening you! COVERTLY. It's implicit in setting up a situation where if you dare assert yourself and your rights, you get his 'bad reaction'. So, oh, yes, you ARE being hit! Geelives, there is more than one way to beat your wife. And there's so many signs, I can't even reveal or dissect them all for you. ...All of this despotism, under the guise of bringing (and enforcing) habits from his family home? What - the guy grew up without a telly, radio, books, other people and their situations/wisdoms regardin relationships and what works/doesn't work in a marriage? Come off it. Who diagnosed him? Methinks they weren't quite sure enough so kept it safe and used a euphemism for the one sign (of many). WHO told you that was the diagnosis, anyway? The hospital consultant? Or your husband? I'm not judging...I get it.... It's far too early for you to be considering leaving him or even tackling it. You're going to have to get your head around it, and then read online all the articles that tell you how to manage a Narcissist, basically. It won't be the man-woman marriage you hoped for, however. More like you've got an extra (spoilt, bossy) kid in a man's suit. He's a Dominator. He dominates you all over the shop. Sounds more like a high-security prison with a dedicated Prison Warden than a marriage. (What's next? Body Searches?) I'm sorry to go from 0-60 like this, but, reading through your posts since my 'stupid robots' post, especially, all my brain kept doing in rapid succession as I read, was this: (Narc-)TICK!....TICK!...TICK-TICK-TICK....TICK..... ALL the way through- AAAAAAAALLL the way! His only 'fear' is loss of total control. Over you, over situations and other people (highly skilled professionals ffs!). Furthermore: "more like a big brother-little sister type of relationship": Close... More like a constantly-controlling, constantly monitoring, repressing, oppressing, guarding FATHER of a young child. He's a Dominator. I don't care if he has good days or moments. They all do. Have to. If they were non-stop horrid, leaving them would be too easy. Literally EVERY PHRASE you wrote merits a 'Tick!'. He's severe. I am sorry but, I'm not going to lie to you (and thousands of others). Sorry. :(

PS: He's kept you using "The Pity Ploy" as his main method. To make you feel sorry for him (to disarm you) and swallow his loftier-sounding excuses. _____________________________________________ https://www.stevensurman.com/narcissists-sociopaths-and-the-pity-play-dr-martha-stout-explains/ "Narcissists, Sociopaths, And The ‘Pity Play’ | Dr. Martha Stout Explains 0 By Steven Surman on September 22, 2023 Sociopathy Despite all of his conniving, manipulative, and controlling behaviors, the Gay Narcissist sure came off as pathetic a lot of the time. How so? Whenever the Gay Narcissist wanted something and I would not give in to his whims immediately, he’d try whatever tactic he could muster up. He’d make demands, toss around accusations, and slyly twist my words and manipulate my perception. These tactics usually worked, but not always. The obnoxious behavior sometimes triggered my own aggression and we’d have heated fights. But you know what was a sure bet? Pity. No matter what, whenever the Gay Narcissist put on his “oh, poor me” act, it worked. Always. Every. Single. Time. What’s The ‘Pity Play’ All About? Dr. Martha Stout describes the “pity play” in her book, The Sociopath Next Door. Stout warns throughout her book that sociopaths are deceptive and highly manipulative individuals. It’s often difficult to pick up on his or her true character—a character that will absolutely ruin your life if one passes through your defenses. A sociopath’s true character is the absence of conscience. Martha Stout estimates that four percent of the total population is sociopathic, so you have a chance of running into one sociopath out of 25 people—yikes. (Worse, some of her colleagues suspect the estimate is too low.) Martha Stout warns, however, that one defining tactic employed by sociopaths to keep people under their control is the “pity play.” This is the closest you will come to finding a scarlet letter branding someone as a sociopath. What exactly should you be looking out for? If someone is shallow, manipulative, and they simply take and take from you with little regard for anything else (let alone your wellbeing), you better sit up and take notice. Most of us do, even if we are quick to explain it away with out own rationalizations. Eventually you might have enough and start pulling away. A sociopath won’t put up with this, so he or she will appeal to your sense of generosity, forgiveness, and understanding by pleading for pity. Get ready for a laundry list of all the woes, troubles, and hardships that have assailed the sociopath throughout an entire lifetime. In the words of Martha Stout from The Sociopath Next Door: “The best clue is, of all things, the pity play. The most reliable sign, the most universal behavior of unscrupulous people is not directed, as one might imagine, at our fearfulness. It is, perversely, an appeal to out sympathy.” Martha Stout continues later on in The Sociopath Next Door: “When deciding whom to trust, bear in mind that all the combination of consistently bad or egregiously inadequate behavior with frequent plays for you pity is as close to a warning mark on a conscienceless person’s forehead as you will ever be given.” Never fall for it. It’s an act." (article continues...) ______________________________________________________ It's NOT "poor him", it's poor YOU. And he is NOT your superior. You are his. And he knows it. His ego's obsessive thirst for Power Over (which does not belong in a romantic partnership!) can't hack that so he's drip-drip-drip wearing you down to Underdog position.

Hey, first off I would like very much so to apologize on my previous post as I at the time had anxiety. When I have anxiety like that I am all over the place with my words, memories, but I don't summon things up, have a point to it. I feel ashamed about that. Right now as I am writing I don't suffer from anxiety, so I think or I hope, at least, I don't make a fool of myself, continuously. I suppose one of my points was that yes, he has from early on been the leader of the relationship, but I saw that as typical male and that he was interested in me and wanted order in our lives. I have felt remorse for being as passive as I was, not showing him too how much I was in love with him, loved him, at the time, and me having this way of mine which was not healthy were you bring someone in close one minute and the next you push them away. I was the way I was back then because of experiences in my past. I don't excuse my faults. There were reasons for it. He too had his reasons to be the way he was. I had (or still have) the kind of personality were I am OK with most stuff but when I am not, I fight for it. There has been times when he had to let me have things my way, but I had to be strong, as his will was as strong as it was. I changed a lot when I had my depression and anxiety. Me withdrawing the way I did gave him the signals that he was loosing me. Both our not so healthy ways triggered our separate bad experiences from our past. Because of that we had stuff that worked well between us and other things were problematic. I have learned that when you suffer from depression and anxiety your self esteem is so bruised that you do not have the power, the strength to fight back, to fight for yourself, to trust your own instinct. With my depression and anxiety issue I learned that no matter how hard I tried to beat this thing (without proper help from professionals nor medications) what happened was that I could only fight it so much, and each time it would return, and each get harder, so it was as if I was sinking in quick sand. There were those in my life that still kept on treating me like they always had, and they did not cross boundaries as in having this need or "rights" to control me through what-have.you device. I understand if he (or his family) were worried about me when I was sick that I would get lost (good then to have me tracked. I was tracked without knowing I was) or do something like suicide, if we should now take it to the extreme, worst thinkable scenario, but the thing is when I found out about it I had underwent treatment, was working, was well functioning. I have read on other sites, forums, people giving advice to those who believe that their partner could be cheating on them to collect proof and then how I was being tracked, all of it, was as if he followed that advice. I can't help but wonder if these people that give that kind of advice understand that you could very well be breaking the law, crossing boundaries big time, in the chase to "be right", to find proof of the partner cheating. If let's say the partner they suspect of cheating works from home, works from the computer from the office. They are not allowed to get in there, access. They do not work for the company. It is not their computer. You as the user are obliged to protect passwords. I sadly think that they are not in a stable mind themselves when they hunt for proof. I think they think if they are right, their partner is cheating, they found the proof for it, then there won't be any consequences for what they have done wrong, because the way they see it they have done nothing wrong at all. Now here was a situation were I had been under his loop without realizing I had been and never been cheating on him, never told him I was going to be somewhere but turned out I was somewhere else. I was always were I said I would be. He would tell me he thought I would figure it out, he would get caught, as for the time he followed me, he thought for a second there I saw him for sure, but then he realized I hadn't. He came clean, he said, because he knew he had done wrong and he said he felt bad about it, but that he couldn't stop himself sometimes from doing it. He needed that "I knew it!"-feeling or to reassure that OK she's telling the truth (this time too, he could relax). This sort of feeling ought to come alive if the object (me in this case) has cheated one time in the past. Only I hadn't. I had never cheated on him. I had never threaten to cheat on him. I thought we were very clear were we stood as a couple. We did not have an open marriage. That was out of the question for the both of us. True, I did not come from such a traditional family history as he did which made me think of courtship and wedding a bit different, but we still shared the same values. He thought I was nice to people but he did not think I intended to be flirtatious. He would feel that he was loosing me and I was periods at the time withdrawing within my shell and that was the trigger. There were times when I was not like that and me thinking we were fine (I was feeling fine), but when he, by himself, was going through something difficult, which then triggered his fear that things were too good to be true between us and so then he had to, again, find ways to get this under control. He had not treated it, it was below the surface. I understand if he comes off as a narc, and I appreciate the insight, help, but that has not been his diagnose, he has been exposed to what we think is narcissism in the past and his unhealthy ways has because of that developed into ways to deal with it, anxiety, perfectionism, OCD. I have been so occupied with myself not doing too well (understatement) and him not doing well that once we got help (therapy) it was so much, really, happening. I can't give you the full story as I don't want our identities and the other people connected to us revealed. I have been afraid that while I had my anxiety and what I wrote before could be a give away but I'm hoping not, for all sakes. I know today that I would not have to suffer the way I did, get as sick as I did had I accepted the help they offered at the hospital. It did not take the psychiatrist a long time before telling me I had had a functioning depression that had not been discovered before and treated when it should have been. I had been playing a part, and me acting to be someone else (who did not have depression) was me too faking it. I remember one time it was so difficult for me to even get out of the home to have dinner with him at a restaurant. Me being this fake of a person was me too sending him signals that something wasn't right. I have forgiven him and his family for their prejudice, if not true fear, of allowing me to get help. Knowing their history they were taught to think this should be dealt within the family, you should care and hide the mentally ill or disabled family member, take turns. Not taught to trust the system. Not taught to seek help. When you have grown up like that it is as foreign as it is for people who has grown up trusting the system. At the end of the day I had to be responsible for me, and not blame anyone else for it, not needing my husband's or anyone else's approval, it was when I knew it was a matter of life or death for me, that I could no longer do this by myself (even if I had family, friends I was alone because you feel alone when you got this). He did not try to pursue me not to get help then. I am surprised being the way I was that he himself did not think of leaving me, but he said that he loved me and could not or did not wish to face his life without me. I wasn't aggressive, he did not find me so difficult to deal with, I guess. He would say I wasn't the same but he was hoping I one day would be. He did not understand that a part from my illness we did have actual problems, that you could not blame on it. He has done a great deal of inner work and still is on his own. Had he not done that, the stuff he has changed or improved on, we would not be a couple as of today. What I need to do, and am doing, but I have my good moments and bad ones, is to not give in when I get scared or have anxiety about triggering his jealousy. He has always been generous with the share of his money, income, when it comes to me, but I've always wanted to do right by me. When he has told me I should quit or not need to work for some time I have not given in because I know that is not the solution. Part of the solution is that I do not isolate myself. Work. Interact with other people. I have honestly been so close to wanting to run off again, isolate myself, quitting that job because of the situation with what happened with the male colleague out of fear of my husband's response. I have to distinguish between my own anxiety, and the past, his past, and the only way forward is forward, the future. It was not mentioned during therapy that if such a situation would arise what would I do, tell him or not? I think one common thing when you are the object of jealousy, control, the boundaries out the window, is that you do tend to keep things to yourself because you never know. You feel the need to protect yourself, your space, in ways you can. It is not about you trying to hide something, but trying to set boundaries. But of course, by then, what ever you say or do or do not say or do is suspicious. I know jealousy and know how horrible it is, but I was so surprised that he was jealous and the ways his jealousy was showing off. I told him he scared me and I do not say that lightly to anyone. He may not have threaten to beat me or me suffering from any other consequence but never the less he scared me, being like that. He too had this fear of all sorts of illnesses of your weight, so he wanted me to weight just right ,me being underweight or overweight or about to in either directions was seen as wrong. He would get sympathy for being a man who did not want his wife to diet, to be too thin, or get yelled at for not wanting his wife overweight, but the point was that it was a proof of his anxiety. It was equally difficult for me to have him comment and trying to make me weight more as it was him trying to make me weight less, because it was invasive. It was him telling me I should look the way he thought I should look and that I could not handle my own body, my own weight, he knew better. Fear he would loose me. He said it was not about him not finding me attractive. I would never be able to tell any difference as he was always the same to me. I had to take time off and figuring out what I wanted to look like, about my weight, find my own individuality before I could return. He never comments these days other than him telling me every so often that he find me attractive. He does not go there, where he use to go. The male colleague has shown me now as the days has passed that he respects me and he's shown this when others are around, as if he's letting us all know, him wanting that, he won't go there, where he once did, it's good.

I'll try my best to respond, though I haven't been in the best mindset for the past day now. So my thing is, I think it can be unhealthy to spend too much time with a partner, and also to spend not enough time with them. I think in order to be in the right headspace, you need to find this, ahem, "Balance" in your life where you divide your time appropriately between the self, children, family, friends, partner(s), and work. For everyone the amount of time and energy needed for each category may be different. I think those times where your husband has told you that you "don't need to work", it's good that you didn't give in and stop working. You must realize the importance of maintaining this work life for yourself, and challenging yourself, and wanting more worlds outside of your relationship. There are a lot of women who give up working to let hubby be the breadwinner, and while that may work just fine for some women, for others it turns them into an absolute shell of a person. Their life revolves around their relationship, and their kids, and.... That's most of it. They don't really get to pursue any ambitions outside of that. And for some, being able to stay at home and not deal with the bullshit of other people at work is worth the lack of independence and control over their lives. Since things are going well for you at the moment at work, that's even better. Being able to maintain positive and healthy relationships at work and at home is truly a great thing. You may still have some concerns, or reservations about your current situation, but it's nothing that can't be figured out and improved upon over time. And as I mentioned before, people change - it's possible a time may come where you want more for yourself in your work life. Or, who knows, maybe you will even want to pursue starting your own business. I'm getting off-track here, but I think it's something all of us give some thought to at some point or another in our career. I'll share a bit with you here. So I think my girlfriend needs more time devoted to our relationship, while I find myself needing more time alone. Interestingly, when I was in my previous relationship one decade ago, I think it was kind of the opposite situation with me overwhelming my ex with affection, and her wanting more of her own space. I guess as I get older, the light kind of fades. You grow up with all of these hopes and dreams about your future, and about interactions with other people you may one day have in your life. But one by one, as just about every relationship in your life starts to plateau or lead to disappointment, and you start to see people for what they really are... And as the time drastically passes.... I think you just look forward to more time with the one person you know you can trust and agree with - number one.

Hey to you both Soulmate and Balance! I appreciate very much you taking your own free time to try to help me out. You're the best! I'm happy to hear that your mindset is where you want it to be right now, Balance :) I agree with you about the balance with the various categories in our lives. Thank you, yes, I agree too, I must not give in to not working no more. Thank you for the support :) I love working, always have. Me working the way I do nowadays was a way for me to try to ease up on myself, in a way. But I too have had periods when I did it to escape, to get off the pain I could not face. That is besides from me needing the money, LOL. I use to be more hard driven, work ways, work more than I ought to pass the working hours, but these days I'm learning to limit myself. I have people in my life these days that too remind me to take it "slow". People who trust in my ability instead of questioning it and demanding more blood from me. My husband he too comes from a place that made him hard driven. More so. That sort of standard was normal as that was the family's standard, personality A, I was told, so to say. These days there are names for everything. He too had to wake up and smell the coffee that maybe something was wrong with that picture, but I think when I began to telling him that I was of course a pain in the you know what. He would smile and listen to me, but that was about it. I had met my maker. He was crazy. He would keep on going. He would be up at nights instead of getting his sleep getting the work done. No excuse was enough. Me having his best interest at heart, wanted to slow him down, make him realize both for his own sake and frankly well, mine too, was not so much appreciated. When I finally landed to get help, professionally, I realized what either of us were doing was normal, there was no good enough in our lives. We had been shaped by our past and we had vulnerabilities from both that and I think genetically speaking looking at our families, no offense. Love them. It isn't that. As I changed and became more kind to myself really he was still the same. It was as if the therapy was moving me in one right direction and he was this one big stop sign. He said he did realize a thing or two, though, that he tried to keep in mind. I could tell the silent demands, expectations on him coming from all sorts of directions, people, and him on him, were stronger than my voice was of "good enough". I could tell there was no difference to him as he was going through these changes, besides him being more devoted, pushing himself more, but he did not get the attitude that some do, that he was all that. Thank God. Before when he did not have all that, the little he had, he would insist on giving to me. Did not matter what it was. Was it his jacket because he thought I was cold or his money if he thought I needed something. The same as he got a whole lot more of it. I would try to say thanks but no thanks, I'm OK, it's yours, but it did not matter. I have been amazed that he has been as suspicious as he has been about pretty much everything regarding me, but as soon as it comes down to money, his very own finances, it is as if he trust me with his life. The kind of reality you describe I saw that growing up too and I remember thinking all that can wait or is there a way I can do it differently? Or perhaps get around it? It was all going too fast my friends were more mature and pushing through than I was. I sort of came along somehow, not knowing how I got there. With some it seemed as if it was a competition, but I was in no hurry. I couldn't so much decide what I wanted to do instead, but I knew something somehow waited for me out there. Why I thought that I don't know. I suppose too I did not get the best of the best experiences of what it was like to have a boyfriend aka potential future husband as the first one turned out really jealous. He is really what I would describe, recognize as someone being jealous. First I thought I shouldn't go there, but now I've made the decision to. So I'm gonna share it now. Why too I am sure it triggered my brain twice as bad when all this was revealed to me about my husbands jealousy. At the time nobody talked about it. I thought that was just how it was. Part of the package. I've done something wrong, again, without knowing what. First time I experienced it was when my crime was that I asked another boy about something, about a subject, and the reaction of jealousy coming from another corner shocked me. It was not as if I had flirted with the boy. Happening in front of everyone. Nobody said and did anything to indicate this was not OK. Not even the teacher that I know looked straight at us. I mostly remember his eyes, the stare, looking like he was going to kill me any minute soon, I know he was saying bad things, words, to me, about me, everyone hearing that, no doubt, how could they not, but I could not move or say anything, not as if someone expected me to. He would always have a way of staring at me and letting others know he was staring at me too, could be good, could be bad. Everyone and especially him, gave him the right to stare at me, from a distance, if he was not close by. this got to be normal, see? I was taught by my surrounding at school, that I must have done something bad and because of that he had gotten jealous and because he was jealous he was in his rights to be like that. I myself did not think it was bad. I had to ask a question. How else would I get it? I was not interested in that boy. It was about a subject at school. I think if one voice, especially if it came from an adult, someone older, like that teacher, no offense, would have turned this around. Instead I got used to it. I did not speak of it to anyone. Did not say a word to it to anyone at home. I saw my own life, my own future be changed, be owned not by me. I knew in order to get away, to get my own life, what life that now may be, I had to change everything. He was trying to convince me to get pregnant too. I had to go. Somewhere. Just go. I was so young back then that it did not look too suspicious that I went away like that, but I ended up alone somewhere strange. I had to rebuilt friendships etc. I knew some of them back home were having marriage and babies, the kind of life expected, but that they wanted too to have, and they had their community, that I used to, or we used to, be part of. The silly thing was I got the attitude later on as if they thought I thought I was all that. It was not so much that I had left the relationship, it was that I had had turned my back on them. What too scared me was that when I did make attempts to go back there, to see friends, the ex somehow, no matter how much time had passed, got notice of it. It was as if I was back again. As if only minutes had passed. That old world. Came straight back. I could tell the mix coming from him of wanting revenge on me daring to leave, making my life somewhere else, daring to reject him, being gone all this time (apparently he had still not hooked up with someone, married) and I could not tell if he was truly asking us for a second chance, if he was really sorry, or if it was a trick, and I was going to pay later. He had done that to me once before. Apologized to me. Making me go back. Then. No. He was not sorry at all. So I knew not to trust him. No matter what he said. What ever he said I was still scared of him. He was so intelligent so he knew not to say things straight out. He never acted as if it mattered if I wanted to be in the relationship or not. If I loved him or not. He would state he loved me and therefor I had to obey I guess and be with him. I have thought about that. If you love someone then don't you want that person to love you too? How can it not matter? Or you think you are so great that everyone must love you? Or you're gonna force them to love you? How's all that gonna work out for you? I couldn't figure it out. But never he asked if I loved him. And if I wanted to be with him. It was his voice that mattered. I never let him know I was scared of him, but I was. I would say it was my anger that got me out, just in time. I was scared too. But I was more mad than anything. I needed that fuel to take the jump. I still had it in me, so strong, not to say a bad word about the ex, to another guy when I met my husband. It really was as if the ex had that kind of power back there that nobody would stand up to him, nobody would dare say anything. I never knew who to trust. I did not want nobody in trouble if I could trust them. I played it safe by keeping my mouth shut, behaving as if everything was the way it should be. Back there it was not so much that I felt digitally watched, invaded, but I felt through our community watched and I did not know if it was by friends or foes or a mix, if he owned them all or what. I knew if he was not where I was that I was still being watched but by his boys and potentially others, not that he ever said that, but he or nobody had to. I knew. Because he let me know. When I once opened up about it I was told I must suffer from paranoia, that's not possible, where would this be at, who would these boys be, and so on. When you think of it it is not so strange, boys he knew, his friends, they're around, they're reporting back to him when he wasn't, what I was doing. It was the feeling, creeping up on you. Times afterwards when I could put two and two together by what he said that he wanted me to know I was being watched, it was true. I know I did not make that up. I would support anyone who goes through anything like this to please be careful with who you share your revelations with because the very few times I did, twice, one to one person, one to another, it was the wrong ones, and their ignorance was the one and only thing that was dangerous. It was not me being dangerous as I was suffering from paranoia, telling them the truth. Today I know where I should have called, where I would have been believed, instead of being told this. I was hanging by a loose thread, my life was basically by the edge of this cliff, and I had these miraculous stupid people, 2 of them, that could have more or less made me fall right over, me thinking no way out, gotta stay. Instead I got so angry and I trusted myself, for once, that I got out. I did not confide to my closest family and friends because I did not want to worry them or create a worse scenario than the one I was already in. But by God have I wanted to go back in time to tell these two confident, ignorant people a thing or two. When someone comes like that, the shape I was in, you are afraid to talk, you are not going to say what you just said twice. Just because they could not relate, just because that could not be a reality of theirs, does not mean that is not how it works in another reality, same world, just different. There are after all all kinds of groups and communities and how it all works. If you have not dipped your toe in it you don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps you should not then tell a girl who was in real need of help that she's wrong, she has not lived in that reality at all, she's suffering from paranoia. At least I was not suffering from stupidity. I knew I had the choice to isolate myself or do the exact opposite, to confuse the ex, so I went for that, I refused to isolate myself and I would move myself fast and into all kinds of crowds. He or they would not be able to keep up had they tried. I was basically jumping around. I was not making it easy for him to track me. I left him no time to invade my circle of new people before I was of to the next. I was young and it was not looked upon as if my actions were strange in any way. I know one time I was afraid something would happen to me. I put something unusual on me, something you would remember, stood out, and I deliberately went somewhere to see someone, a stranger, working, to ask something, get information, and for me to then move on. I did that only because I did not know if I was still going to breath, if I was going to make it by night. I wanted that someone to remember me. yes, that girl, yes, I saw her, she wore -- what I now had on. I stopped by someone else, another stranger, to say something about their dog. That was most likely the worst day I had. But I knew if something was to happen to me these strangers would hopefully remember me. They would say yes I saw her around that time, she went that way. They would help tracking me down til I hopefully could be found. I made sure I wasn't alone. I made sure there were witnesses. These were naturally crazy thoughts I had, but I think at that time I simply thought I would not be believed would I go to the police. I would not get out of my situation. But my last walk would be that of freedom. It was during an intense time when the ex was perhaps at his craziest but I could not get a valid threat, get proof of it, and I felt all alone. My head wasn't where it should have been, of that I am sure, but that was the temporary solution it came up with. I wasn't that old, if that's an excuse. But I guess I had pretty much given up on anyone anywhere helping me out to get rid of him, out of my life once and for all, so I came up with these "solutions". I was stressed out, no doubt. Nothing happened. He calmed down, or what ever. I'll never know. So in retrospect I had been walking around looking silly in what I now wore to stand out over nothing. I honestly did not know what was worse, him reaching his peek of rage/crazyiness or afterwards, the complete silence. He wanted me back and he could not get me back. One time I thought I have to go back, because I was so afraid, so this all stops, but then I thought if I go back I should go back because I love him. I did not love him. Far from it. Nobody needed to tell me it was going to end happily ever after. What ever they would say. What ever he would say. I knew it wasn't so. I knew my life would be over with had I gone back there, one way or the other. My husband would tell me when we began dating he had rejected the idea of marriage (he was still young so I did not understand what kind of talk was that, I thought whaaaat...?) as he thought if it did not feel right he wasn't gonna, and he hadn't felt that so then it didn't happen. We were both limiting ourselves when giving information about our past. None of us wanted to talk about it. Or hear about it that much. He would tell me later on that he then understood what had been his first feeling that something must have happened to me, so he needs to be careful. He said he thought he was really lucky to have met me, that I was single when we met and so on. When I learned that my husband was jealous, that I was being invaded all kinds of ways through the digital it was not only that in itself. I think it all brought me back to what I had been through before, my brain recognized it. That same feeling the ex gave me through his boys that I was being watched. My husband would tell me he did not want me to know he was jealous of me and so he would avoid doing the things I had told him the ex had done. There was this one time much later on when I had to describe a scene with the ex, and me adding that he did this, but no more or less, because after all he knew I could be pregnant, and he wanted that baby. Sure I don't know if it was not the suspicion on me being pregnant would make him actually worse but I somehow felt as if that was holding him back from doing more. It was the feeling of someone going crazy on you, doing what he did, I was physically trapped by him, but at the same time as he was crazy he was in control. I would keep myself as calm as I could get but honestly I could not be anything but calm, I think that was how my brain protected me, I go slow, and even if I feel fear on the inside, or fear later on, it is always still me being shocked or numbed, calm, that is what the other person sees. It is as if I have dived under, am under water and moving my way forward. Anyways, I had such hunger for life and I pretty much viewed the world, ins, and outs, as mine to go out and explore. They always say that was a problem with me because I would come and go "as you wish" when I was a kid. I would get punished for not getting home "on time" (I had trouble knowing time, learning it, I did not do it on purpose. I was so wrapped up with what I was doing. I enjoyed more outdoors or be with friends than cooped up). I til this day have difficulty not being triggered when someone in my life tries to dominate me as in telling me the rules, the expectations they have when I have to get back to them, somehow, their way, I mean why do they alone get to make the rules on my behalf? Can't we decide this, the two of us? Why does one have to make the rules? As I was this really young adult I again got in trouble now living with older who thought me coming home that hour was too late for a girl my age, they could not punish me no more as I was too old for that but it still got to be this big thing. What I was doing out "so late" was completely innocent but it did not matter. It was the time. I wanted to say where did you come from? The freakin stone age? but I didn't. Had I been a young man no questions would have been asked, of course. no rage. I got rage coming through the door. Straight off. I was taught to respect the elders and did not say too much. But I thought it. My husband would tell me if you go there, (where I wanted to go,) enjoy, but you have to then get yourself home, I would say no trouble, of course I will, and not once, not once, would he allow that to happen. Always he would be on the phone and always waiting, to pick me up, and get me home. He must have figured I would't go then, I would get scared or what ever. But I went. He would talk to me in old ways that I would hear his father talk to his mother and as i would comment on it he would then rephrase himself, but he was really saying what he was saying first of all "I won't allow it". I have thought about saying Who asked you if you allow it or not? I can't remember I asked? But again, I kept my mouth shut, that instinct, and when speaking, rephrased myself. He has told me that is just how he talks and i can say the same thing to him. It's like he's joking but not? My husband who was always so quick on calling or texting me would find out that I was not like him and for starters he did not like it. I felt as if my past was knocking once more. As if I could not breath when he would let me know how he felt about it. But because I have been told all my life I should be more considerate, to understand that people can react this way, I thought I have no other choice then to adapt. But I always had this feeling like all the way from my childhood I'm gonna get in trouble. A part of me wants to rebel and the other part wants to go Ok then, I will do it your way then. He has changed a great deal. Before he would always call or text like crazy if he was away from me. You would think I had left him when it was he who was going away on a trip or where he now was going. Because he was always like that I knew what he was trying to tell me and it was that he was not cheating. Even if he wasn't by my side he was more by my side than were he was at the time. I guess that was why I didn't get jealous, insecure, when he was away like that. He would call me at the hours I guess you would suspect had he wanted to cheat he would have. He was always loving that way. I never told him to text or to call like that. He did not want to be that guy. That guy that makes his girl wonder or cry. Today we have this rule on when we are to contact one another or not during day time. What ever he has been taught through therapy and reading, doing his homework (So much you can do online these days, it helps a great deal), it's working. I'm happy to see that he has changed in the right direction. I know how hard it can be. I know you can slip right back. But you gotta get a grip on it. I'm trying to get a grip on myself right now. It was difficult because as I felt so watched by him, I got anxiety when he would phone or text, and I couldn't handle it. It all came back to me. I did no longer know if he called because he wanted to or because of his OCD or jealousy. The way my ex use to call, text, write, what he now did, gave me an even worse feeling, but the two of them together, the memories of the past and then my present, it got bad. My brain was putting on sirens, alarmed. It was the type of sirens, alarm I never again thought would go off in my head. I remember one time my husband he had to be away, for some time, and so when he was away I learned it was no use me putting the phone away, I had to have the phone in my hand all the time, one hour to the next. I would wake up, not kidding you, with the phone in my hand. I know he had anxiety at the time but I did not know it was OCD, what that was exactly, or even that I knew I could call it anxiety, what he had. But I knew it was something. Times before in the relationship he would tell me to tell him if he got too intense but the thing was I had difficulty telling him because I did not want to hurt his feelings or make him look like a fool. I loved him. But I do remember I got stressed out about it. He was not always like that in our every day life but I could tell when it would get like it and the thing was I couldn't relate. Why call like that. Text like that. How does it get to that point? Before all this I notice the only time he seemed at peace was when I was at home, on the sofa, with him, just watching tele, and we would be close. If I was to go away, he was right on it. Like this switch in him. Some things triggered it. The male co-worker is still poking me for attention, but in a fun loving way, not a flirtatious one, he's always been the one active but that's really his personality, initiative. When he was creating that unexpected scene he was def in the "don't stop me now!"-(song) mood. I could tell later on he felt crappy about it. In secret I've been angry at him, the anger shot inside of me after a few days of feeling all the anxiety waking up from our yesterdays, why he had to say, do that. I have thought back if I have said or done anything to make him think I'm interested in him, but I can't think of that I have. I do not understand how it got like it did. I honestly do not have those types of feelings for him so it is not like I'm trying to hide it. If there is such a vibe I don't feel it. If he has had it or has it it's not mutual. I thought he loved his wife. Balance, do you know why your girlfriend is like that? I mean you know why you are? I too enjoy my time on my own, need my own space. Is there something you are not giving her that she needs and then she will give you your space? These things can be so hard to talk about. Could be nothing is wrong, that's just how she is. Some people don't want to be alone that much. Some people need more of a social life than others, we're different. As long as you two get each other on the why, and if it is not about a love gone bad, trust gone bad, then it should work out alright, shouldn't it? When my husband was going through this rough period of his I would push him out to do things and keep things going, do fun things, but too considering resting and have his alone time. He says he never wants time alone away from me as I have a way of still letting him be just being myself in his company, so I don't physically has to move myself away from him. He says that was one of the things he liked about me how he felt around me. One time I went away because I got the impression he wanted to be by himself as he got home, but he sure did not like that, and said I had misunderstood him, to never do that again. If and when I get let down by people I too have a tendency to wanting to be alone more as it is really a break of trust, you do not get to have so much value, so much in common, that you then appreciate the company, like that, you can be better off then alone, at least from that period of time, but then again we should not give up on other people or ourselves, if it is not too bad, that is, we do need each other, at the end of the day :)

1. I'm happy to hear that your mindset is where you want it to be right now, Balance :) - It's not, but I'm not going there right now. 2. Me working the way I do nowadays was a way for me to try to ease up on myself, in a way. But I too have had periods when I did it to escape, to get off the pain I could not face. - To be honest it's something I don't always give a lot of thought to, but there are a lot of other reasons we work besides being able to afford to live. I guess back when I had that one job I really liked, I looked forward to the job and the friends I had there. I liked knowing that what I did at least covered my monthly expenses, though. 3. As I changed and became more kind to myself really he was still the same. It was as if the therapy was moving me in one right direction and he was this one big stop sign. He said he did realize a thing or two, though, that he tried to keep in mind. I could tell the silent demands, expectations on him coming from all sorts of directions, people, and him on him, were stronger than my voice was of "good enough". I could tell there was no difference to him as he was going through these changes, besides him being more devoted, pushing himself more, but he did not get the attitude that some do, that he was all that. Thank God. - Your husband is the rock in your relationship. It's good that you noticed he did listen during therapy and take some things into consideration, though. 4. Before when he did not have all that, the little he had, he would insist on giving to me. Did not matter what it was. Was it his jacket because he thought I was cold or his money if he thought I needed something. The same as he got a whole lot more of it. I would try to say thanks but no thanks, I'm OK, it's yours, but it did not matter. I have been amazed that he has been as suspicious as he has been about pretty much everything regarding me, but as soon as it comes down to money, his very own finances, it is as if he trust me with his life. - There's nothing particular I wanted to add here, but this part was cute. I guess when push comes to shove, we usually find a way to show our love and appreciation to make sure our partner is comfortable. And a lot of the time money becomes no object, even when it is. 5. I saw my own life, my own future be changed, be owned not by me. I knew in order to get away, to get my own life, what life that now may be, I had to change everything. He was trying to convince me to get pregnant too. I had to go. Somewhere. Just go. I was so young back then that it did not look too suspicious that I went away like that, but I ended up alone somewhere strange. I had to rebuilt friendships etc. I knew some of them back home were having marriage and babies, the kind of life expected, but that they wanted too to have, and they had their community, that I used to, or we used to, be part of. The silly thing was I got the attitude later on as if they thought I thought I was all that. It was not so much that I had left the relationship, it was that I had had turned my back on them. - Unfortunately these are the sorts of mindsets most people I've interacted with over the years have had. All they care about is their little communities, and anything anti-little-community they see as a threat or a slight against them. I'm sorry you had to go through all of that and deal with problems from all sides just to get out of that situation. But you're not alone. 6. What too scared me was that when I did make attempts to go back there, to see friends, the ex somehow, no matter how much time had passed, got notice of it. It was as if I was back again. As if only minutes had passed. That old world. Came straight back. - I can and can't relate with this. When I moved away from my hometown, I tried to make an effort to visit my family back home at least once a year. I didn't particularly enjoy having to go back there, and hardly wanted to go anywhere that I might run into old acquaintances. But for the most part those visits, from what I can remember, usually went down alright. ...It was when I moved back to my hometown that all of that shit came back. I used to liken moving away from my hometown to getting out of this pit of quicksand, and unfortunately that analogy has held true - it just sucks you right back in. 7. He was so intelligent so he knew not to say things straight out. - I think you're giving him too much credit. It's probably not smart so much as manipulative and deceptive. 8. Back there it was not so much that I felt digitally watched, invaded, but I felt through our community watched and I did not know if it was by friends or foes or a mix, if he owned them all or what. I knew if he was not where I was that I was still being watched but by his boys and potentially others, not that he ever said that, but he or nobody had to. I knew. Because he let me know. - Especially these days, it's probably wise to be cautious. Small towns and cities are gossip mills, and everybody who griefs enough about the right subjects is 'in'. But nowadays we have the added threat of online surveillance, and I experienced quite possibly the worst and strangest case of this in one of the largest cities in the country. I still can't explain that. But it's always best not to give them information to work with, or to give as little as possible. 9. I refused to isolate myself and I would move myself fast and into all kinds of crowds. He or they would not be able to keep up had they tried. I was basically jumping around. I was not making it easy for him to track me. I left him no time to invade my circle of new people before I was of to the next. - Smart. I will reiterate that I'm not sure whether this tactic would still work as well today, or over the past decade or so, but it's probably still better than not doing it. 10. These were naturally crazy thoughts I had, but I think at that time I simply thought I would not be believed would I go to the police. I would not get out of my situation. But my last walk would be that of freedom. It was during an intense time when the ex was perhaps at his craziest but I could not get a valid threat, get proof of it, and I felt all alone. My head wasn't where it should have been, of that I am sure, but that was the temporary solution it came up with. I wasn't that old, if that's an excuse. But I guess I had pretty much given up on anyone anywhere helping me out to get rid of him, out of my life once and for all, so I came up with these "solutions". I was stressed out, no doubt. Nothing happened. He calmed down, or what ever. I'll never know. So in retrospect I had been walking around looking silly in what I now wore to stand out over nothing. - Honestly, I don't blame you for thinking and feeling that way, and doing what you did. I've been through some similar situations, though I wasn't even sure who might have been tracking me. It could have been an acquaintance from work, it could have been a neighbor, or even somebody I didn't know who had seen me around the city and just plain didn't like me. I also don't know if I could rely on law enforcement and mental wellness services in certain parts of the country. But I wouldn't look back on it as pure craziness. You experienced it, so you know what's up. 11. Before all this I notice the only time he seemed at peace was when I was at home, on the sofa, with him, just watching tele, and we would be close. If I was to go away, he was right on it. Like this switch in him. Some things triggered it. - I think that is where your sanctuary together is for him. It's one of those few places where his brain can relax some, and he can enjoy being near you without fear of something going wrong with you, or him losing you. Your husband, despite being the rock, is also like a guard dog and will spring into action whenever its owner leaves the room. 12. Balance, do you know why your girlfriend is like that? I mean you know why you are? I too enjoy my time on my own, need my own space. Is there something you are not giving her that she needs and then she will give you your space? These things can be so hard to talk about. Could be nothing is wrong, that's just how she is. Some people don't want to be alone that much. Some people need more of a social life than others, we're different. As long as you two get each other on the why, and if it is not about a love gone bad, trust gone bad, then it should work out alright, shouldn't it? - I don't know. I guess I'm all over the place. The year we met, I was so tired of being alone, and I just really appreciated that I could tell she's this genuinely kind and caring person. And that's what made me want to keep spending time with her. After the previous few years of my life where a lot of things fell apart for me, and I tried other things and those all fell apart, too, I just wanted this relationship I could enjoy. Things aren't perfect, and a lot of that is on me. I damaged some things by being too blunt and not knowing how to word things so they didn't come out wrong or hurt her feelings, and those things come back up in conversation whenever we argue. I know it isn't all her fault, but I can't help pointing out to her how some of the decisions we made for her are causing us problems now. The thing is, the added stress of things going on this year has been taking a real mental toll on me. My life was already apart, like I mentioned, and now there's more to be concerned over. I've got to wrap this up. I wanted to do like an overview paragraph, but I have to go.

Fab post as usual, Balance (and I like your laid-back pace!). One thing, though: "I've got to wrap this up. I wanted to do like an overview paragraph, but I have to go." She didn't creep up on you again, did she? Can't you sit with your back to a wall, facing-out into the room, so that you can see her coming and do something to put a stop to it, finally? (...like, do an evil fart?, hahahahahha!)

I'm sorry to hear that Balance, hope it gets better soon. Too bad you had that one job you liked and is without it these days. It's so important that one get to have a job one likes and a family like surrounding, a good boss, but I know what it is like when it's the opposite of all that. I really hope your luck turns so that you can experience again what you once had. Don't give up! If I got it right where you are now is for the sake, sacrifice of your girlfriend's and now you're experience all sorts of signals from within telling you this isn't working for you? I know the feeling where my husband had it all and he was home, but I had said yes to everything and made my sacrifices. I felt low spirited because of how much I had adapted so that he could have it all that in return meant that I could not make the new changes, choices I would normally make, had I not had to consider him and his life, in order to get out of the situation. I had done most of the sacrifices and when I would point that out to him he couldn't relate. He had protected himself, his life, his interests so well, he had all the cards, and I had very little. I came up with solutions and compromises, trying to change my situation for the better, but no. I had to wait to change things around. Today I would say I am where he was, where he's been all this time before. I can tell such a difference it makes. Looking at it now I see how lonely I was, in lack of emotional support and understanding, because when it was about this he didn't understand. He couldn't relate. One example of how lonely I felt, and the What am I doing here?.feeling hit me, when I got hurt, was when we went to that social function (I wrote about before) where I apparently did not dress the part and felt he was not taking care of me. I suppose I took for granted given how he was with me when it was only he and I, that this would be no different, and I was in for a rude awakening as he had been taught to act, be a certain way at those functions. And be a certain way around his family. It was like day and night. He did not look around to see how other guys were with their partners. He thought we were doing a good job the both of us being social. I was ready to get up and walk away. I would too be told that they had forgotten to inform about the dress code to me. Somehow. I would always stay and there were times when I felt like crying but kept it all together. I was afraid to cause any scenes that would embarras him. Again, a sacrifice on my own, my own dignity. All for him. I was brought up and my principle was too that when you bring someone with you, to your world, you take good care of that someone. You are attentive to them. You show them around. You introduce them. You let others know what that person means to you. That they better treat that someone right. I was at open gun shot. I was vulnerable. I was trying to act as if I didn't care. I would too act as if I could do this sacrifice as being the way he was was how he felt comfortable at those functions. I put his needs first, again and again. But I'm telling you, it all catches up with you. You are not getting away with not treating yourself right in sake of someone else. No matter how much you love them. And they you. In my opinion, you do not invite someone to go with you, present yourself as a couple, and then drop them as soon as you get there. I swam about the first couple minutes to then drown. He did not even think about that to me these were all new people I had to get to know and that took energy from me. Me wanting to make a good impression. To win approval. I was so in love with him. I looked so much up to him. I had no skin. It hurt me. Made me insecure. He knew them. If I got there on my own I would be fine. But it was the fact that I had what I presumed were normal expectations of a partner to take care of me. The way I always did him if and when I introduced him to my world. He would say he felt so at home with my people, into my world. No wonder. We all treated him well. I would not let nobody say or do something stupid to him, if so they would have a problem with me, big problem. I felt responsible. If and when someone did or said something dumb to him I had a strong reaction to it and the person who had done it asked him of forgiveness. He was always safe with me. Sadly I was not safe with him in his world. I would try to handle it on my own, fearful that these sort of situations would be impossible for him to handle, that he would take side against me. I did not want any conflict and I went to great extent to avoid such in my mission to protect him from any of it, and in my own fear that he would be manipulated and that he would stop loving me. I loved him so much that without a blink of an eye I sacrificed myself. For him. For us. What kind of sacrifice did he do? None. I came to understand that who was doing this to me was using my vulnerability, my great fear, against me. My own fear was used on me. It had become the manipulators tool. It was not my own tool anymore. I could too tell that my husband was manipulated. He was co-dependent. He wasn't alone. You're right, it was not really about my ex being so intelligent, it was him being an excellent manipulator. I recognized signs. Signs I never thought I would have to experience again. Before I felt this anguish in me wanting to protect him from the manipulator, but why? He would mimic the manipulators words or cruel jokes about me. I was afraid the manipulator would change my husband's mind about me, over time. Seriously. That my husband would no longer love me. My husband would prefer someone else. My love for him was so strong back then that the idea of that happening felt like the end of me. I was ready to fight for him, for us. But I was doing this fight alone. And you can't fight alone to save a relationship. Not in the long run. So I've learned. When I did start to stand up for myself we got into a lot of fights about it, about the manipulator. I got nowhere. I was at the same spot. I tried to get through to him. He would get defensive. He would protect himself. Protect the manipulator. I knew the manipulator was in his life first. I came in second. His loyalty was with the manipulator, the first one, who got to him. I would say my husband has been manipulated twice during our relationship. The second time it happened was someone he shared office with. A woman. First time I realized it was going on was when the woman signaled to me that who did I think I was, I was nobody, I was not suppose to be with him in the first place, his wife, what a joke, it was she who was going to get him, she was well on her way. That sort of thing. Happening right under his nose. I know that why I reacted the way I did with the good looking man I was seeing before my husband, and the same went down with my husband, is that these two men - they were reacting a particular way at the women who thought they were good looking. They both were flattered. That was the green light. I knew that I would not get away with being flattered, showing that, as where I came from, that sort of green light, would make me have less of a status. But with these two men, no, they did not lose status from that, they gained if nothing else, somehow. We did not live by the same rule. Again I would confront my husband about what the female co-worker was up to. Again he would react, getting defensive. Protecting himself. Protecting her. Them. Just the same thing all over again. He would always feel as if he was wrongfully accused by me and he would team up with the manipulator. She became this wall between us. I knew somehow I was in this battle with her, invisible to him, but the thing was, I made the choice that she could have him then. I did not like her. If that was his type. If that was who he defended, if he felt both he and her had been, for unjust reasons, accused, wrongly, by me, then so be it. The way he viewed it the discussion was over. He had defended himself. Defended her. Defended them. I was the crazy one. We were to talk of it no more. I was wrong. He was right. I knew, I just knew, that this was the period where she could have won him. She could have flattered him some more. I was certainly rejecting him in my own ways. I was shut off. My feelings for him were changing. I was taking steps back. Thought I knew his next step would be. Or hers. That now he would change. Now I would see all the signs the one who gets cheated on sees. But they did not turn up. He was just the same, he was just as into me as always before. If not more. I was to learn that when I would think the game was over, when I would think I was loosing him, when I did not fight for him no more, these two manipulators could have him, that was when he began to fight for me, for us. Sooner or later the woman at his office had to realize the game was over, and she did. And she went away. Too the other manipulator was to experience the feeling of failure. More so than ever before did my husband stand by my side. These two nightmares were over. I know they too played a part in me not getting out of my depression, to have it return, because I was still under the kind of pressure that could result in a depression, emotional fatigue. I was in these two unhealthy situations for a long time without seeing progress or a solution. It was not enough to leave him. Especially as he was still being as into me as he was, he wouldn't have that. I knew that. But these two manipulators created a distance between us. I'm really sorry to hear that you are struggling like this, Balance, and hope it all works out, soon, very soon. I understand you don't feel at home where you live right now and that the people aren't exactly what you are either familiar to or would think is at least minimum of what one could expect from our fellow beings. I too know what it is like. I too have to go now. I too agree, you give great post, advice :)

Just bumping you up :) ...

Thank you Soulmate :)

Balance, I've thought about what you mentioned about the situation with your galfriend. About the same stuff being brought up again when you two get into an argument. So I'm gonna write some about that, hope that's OK? What we've learned is that when my husband unwillingly or willingly hurt me - and I had this respond do it, we got into an argument, fight, that it was how he dealt with it then and there, (step 2, step 1 was hurting me), getting defensive, that made it all bigger, that actually one of those incidents ended up becoming a trauma for me. Because it got to be a trauma it splattered all over, infecting, meaning small things that reminded me of the trauma got to be seen as a threat. This meant that when these seemingly small things appeared on the horizon it woke up the trauma. That meant, sigh, that this was something I would relive, feel again, and when I had anxiety I would bring that up again when we would get into something. It wasn't solved. It wasn't healed. It did not matter that it happened days, weeks, years before. It had festered and settled down. We learned that opposite of how he would ALWAYS respond, getting defensive, was detrimental to his relationship. Uncanny thing was that I noticed he would not get defensive, he would not mock for instance, someone else, would they be twice as bad or more, than I had been. It was ONLY me he was doing this too. Only me. That is he treated me like trash and treated other people in his life way better then would they have been hurt by him and they would have been me, telling him that. He had learned to get defensive by his past. That mechanism. So strong. He had too trouble with his self esteem (which I do not think anyone could have guessed as everyone looked at his self confidence, which, in contrary, was doing great). I was the one branded mental, right? With my depression and anxiety. It was so easy for him, for others had they had the will to do so, to minimize my experience, which of course made it worse. What I can tell about myself is that when I was in my depression, when I had anxiety, that yes, what I experienced was on a scale of 1 to 10 maybe 7 or 8. And had it happened when I was not suffering from my depression or had anxiety, then I would experience it, emotionally, on a scale of 3 or 4ish. But I would still have a reaction to it. I would still be right to have a reaction to it because something was wrong with it. I was actually the one doing (perhaps for once?) right in how I reacted if someone was hurt, angry with me. They could tell I had empathy for them. I was interested in their perspective. I would not get defensive, straight off the bat. I would wait my turn and tell them how my perspective had been. That is my first priority, right or wrong, had been to take care of them (my step 2), that meant they then felt they had been heard and listened to, they felt OK again, and they were now willing to hear my side of things. We would, that is, sort it out, together. I would be so surprised myself that when people would go off at me about something (they could be right, they could be wrong, it did not matter, it's no competition here) that only hours or a day later they had gotten over it, so soon, and they picked up where we had left off. Here I thought I had fallen from great heights, in how they viewed me, that the damage to the relationship, me falling like that, would be great. But it wasn't. They were like it hadn't happened. I had relationships, all over, that were close. They remained intact. It was during therapy we learned that I, the mental one, had actually done this one thing right, which in return led to me having closer and stronger relationships. The situation with my husband was that first of all he did not want people that close to him as that signaled to him that it was a threat. He had struggled to pretend that he was just like me, when we got into our relationship. He noticed I was close to the people in my life in ways he wasn't himself used to. He said he realized if he was going to have a relationship with me he had to do that too. On one hand this is what he truly desired, to be close, but on the other alarms set off. This was the back and forth I would notice. I would summon it up saying we were close in one way, but not another, and I had come to realize this is what he wanted, this is what he had worked for, getting me to understand that and it was me going through all the phases of that. Me trying to change that. Got me nowhere. Me trying to get through. Me then thinking I could accept that. It would limit our relationship but that we were still enough. Then this one day I got to the realization that No, if I could not have that last piece, it was the missing part in a partner I was going to miss that for the rest of my life. And would it not be better then to put an end to this, once and for all? We could not say we hadn't tried. We sure had. I knew as much as he was capable and as much as I was we had given this thing, our marriage, so much energy, but it wasn't enough. It wasn't enough because we did not have the same tools or the willingness to use these tools, separately, to make it work. I had told him over and over to get into counseling with me. He had refused. Today he does not take defense. Something I never thought would change. I tell him things sooner than before so it does not come off so strong when I do. Before I do I try to give him the benefit of the doubt. I can tell I think in a different way today than had the same stuff happened yesterday. It is actually the same thing, it's just how I respond to it that's different. He shows sympathy. Sure, there has been times when it's so easy, too easy, to fall back on old tracks, on me going on and on about before, after he would go into his defense mode, so it is a very conscious decision, on both of us, to not go there. We're not going there. We focus on the now. We work as a team. As his loyalty to me before would instead be with himself or who ever, my enemy, he needs to show it's with me. It is not about him having to agree with me about everything, but it's about showing me that respect, a kind of loyalty to me. Priority. I feel as if I finally gotten through to him, but it was happening when I felt done with it, when I did not give a dam, to be fair, that is his usual wake up call, that Oh, was there an actual consequence to my actions before? It is only then it is obvious to him. Because of incidents that has happened at social gatherings I have developed social anxiety and honestly do not have any desire to go anyplace with him where there are family, friends, or others presents, large groups. It is not just about him changing the way he did, instantly, dropping me, having created that green light by him being flattered by those who thought he was good looking, them not understanding, which I can understand given how he acted, being that far away from me, for them to then think he was single or they had a shot at him. I've learned that apparently having a ring on your finger for a guy opens up a new clientele of those who find him attractive, that's status, and they want a piece of that. I would work it out so that as far as I could I would make our social life split into two halves, so that he actually did not have to go with me where I was going, and I did not have to go with him (I am not sure he would notice as I would be invisible anyhow so what difference would it make?). I think me doing that got him worried. So I do not have social anxiety if I go places and see people without him. I too learned to turn off that social anxiety off if I would go with him places, to see people. I would no longer be emotionally open, feel the kind of love I use to feel for him because in the past when I had - I was vulnerable because of it. And so I turned that off. I was the kid sister or the friend. I was not the wife. It was no trouble then would he show he was not loyal to me. Or if another woman would look and act (looks alright, acting another) his direction. This is a work in process. So we are taking this step by step. he wants to prove to me that he will act the way I would want a partner to act towards me, showing me those signals, as well as others then, simultaneously, to see if my wall will come down. And that i will one day perhaps actually enjoy a social life the way any normal couple does out there. So I guess what I want to say is that there are solutions, but you both has to work on yourselves and work together to change it. .................... God I've written so much. I would like to adress some more, but gotta go, LOL.

Hi Geelives, 1. Your discussion about that event you and your husband went to where you weren't notified of the dress code, and he didn't bring you around with him but kind of left you on your own... It kind of made me think about my ex, for some reason. Not that that's something I did do her, but maybe she was better at introducing me to her people than I was at introducing her to mine. It probably didn't help that I didn't really have any friends to speak of when we met, so my "people" was pretty much just my family. I know in retrospect that she didn't always feel comfortable around my family, and especially now I kind of feel bad about that and wonder if I could have done anything to ease the tension there. I feel like I made bad impressions on some of the people in her life, also. It's fascinating to me that I don't seem to have that issue with my current girlfriend. My family was pretty judgmental about my ex, as far as her appearance and her age. My sister had tried to steer me away from my girlfriend I have now initially, but I think over all my family has liked her a lot better than my ex. 2. I noticed some parallels between your husband and his female coworker, and you and your male coworker. I don't think your male coworker is trying to be with you or anything, but I just wonder if your husband would be able to view his time working with that woman from your perspective with your current coworker, and maybe realize that like him, there's nothing to worry about with you. 3. "But with these two men, no, they did not lose status from that, they gained if nothing else, somehow. We did not live by the same rule." There are so many double-standards. For both sexes. But women definitely do have some unfair double-standards. But for the record, there is nothing wrong with feeling flattered. I don't receive compliments often, but I have overheard women compliment me in the past over the years and that is a great ego-booster. It's nice to know that we do have some attractive traits. 4. "Uncanny thing was that I noticed he would not get defensive, he would not mock for instance, someone else, would they be twice as bad or more, than I had been. It was ONLY me he was doing this too. Only me." My girlfriend accuses me of being mean to her and then being all nice and friendly to my friends and strangers. I don't think this is entirely accurate. I think it's missing a lot of context. The thing is, most of my friendships now have become pretty surface-level, and they're mostly just people to unwind with and reminisce about things with. We don't share similar concerns about life or the world or society. Heck, we don't even entirely have similar interests. I've also noticed that different friends and people I talk to have different things I appreciate about them, and none of them are a whole "package." So I more or less look forward to catching up with them for enlightening in that one particular subject or aspect. The difference is that a lot of my friends are pretty much turning into amusement and entertainment for me, and escapism. There is no close bro-ness there at all anymore, I don't think. By contrast, I think my girlfriend have similar levels of care about the world, and I am much more trusting of her. But I can only put up with so much of her sometimes before I need alone time, or time with friends or strangers. 5. "...if I could not have that last piece, it was the missing part in a partner I was going to miss that for the rest of my life." That will probably always haunt me. I keep thinking that, somewhere, there probably are these women out there I'm looking for who are a better match for me. Who have features I'd like, who like features I have. Who just click with me. I keep thinking about how it's funny that we spend our lives looking for this one person, when so many people could be good matches for us. And then, at the same time, we are limited by the passage of time and other such factors that would keep us from having the time, money and energy for more than one person to be with probably, anyway. But even finding one person who you can get along with and match with is daunting. If my life was a book, and I was to finally meet my "soulmate" in some later chapter, then I can't say for certain that my current girlfriend is ever what I would have had in mind for myself. There are things about her that make it make sense, I guess, but I think the child inside of me is still a little disappointed that God or whatever being is to blame didn't feel I was worthy of a lot of the things I'd wanted. ...And in the same breath, I can also look at my own imperfect and sometimes contemptable self and say, "Ah, that's fair." But is it fair? I don't know. At least I have a girlfriend, and she checks most of the important boxes, so that's at least good. But maybe I'm just upset that I couldn't strive for something greater. 6. "This is a work in process. So we are taking this step by step. he wants to prove to me that he will act the way I would want a partner to act towards me, showing me those signals, as well as others then, simultaneously, to see if my wall will come down. And that i will one day perhaps actually enjoy a social life the way any normal couple does out there." I didn't realize you had this issue where it works out better for you both when you go to places alone. I don't know if most couples really can do these social outings together like that, successfully. You kind of have me questioning whether they do, or if some are just good at faking it, or if they can keep it up for a little while before it falls apart. For some reason I just picture it working out better when you are friends with other couples, or people you know in your circle, and you all go and hang out together or something. Like if that friendliness is already there, maybe it's easier and there's less bs or something. 7. I'm not going to go into detail about it right now, but my gf and I had an argument the other day. I almost thought that was going to be the last straw for a few hours there, but we're still together, obviously. I had considered writing about it on a new thread, but decided against it. I've noticed that things will be going good for a while, and then like clock-work something will come back around to make me question what I'm doing here. Our issues with finances, where we live and our personality differences will probably continue to linger. I guess what's annoying is when I say no and draw a line with some issue, she keeps pressing it. The big one now is she wants to move again, which just seems asinine to me and counter-productive when we have current issues we still aren't out of the woods with. Moving will likely only add to the problem, and I will resent her even more for having to move yet again, but only moving a few miles away and not far from here like I'd wanted to. With that.... I have to get to bed.

Geelives, just a quick question-repeat for now, because I couldn't help but notice you missed this out in your last reply to me: "WHO told you that was the diagnosis, anyway? The hospital consultant? Or your husband?"

(.........................*Tumbleweed*............................................................)

Hi Balance! My apologies for not replying here to you any sooner. I am going to try to not be all over the place but as structured as you are :) OK, so here we go...(wish me luck;) 1. I believe it is about how you are brought up. I was brought up seeing adults treat each other this way, treat me this way, when to introduce, include, check up, support. I was always told to not let someone on the playground be left out. So I had it in my backbone, see? You put yourself in that someone else's shoes, or try to. You understand that when you yourself are a member of the group, this group may be your friends, at work, your family, and someone else comes in as an outsider, you do your best to make them feel welcomed and part of the group. With that said, my husband had had no such training like I had. His family was more it's we against the world kind a thing. I have been told that this was a family that was hard to get into, be part of, after I was, before that I did not know what anyone else thought about the family or of the head of the family. All these things were stuff my husband was taught a long time ago, but was not aware of. It is the same for everyone, we get taught something, we then act like that, but we don't know we're doing it, and we don't know why all the time. But I would say that there was this unwritten rule that the family was one union and the others were, well, outside. I suppose because I have been the way I've been, and surrounded with something else, in return I would get friends that too came from such families and surroundings, so I would feel actually as if I was a family member of friend's families. I have thought about if it could be because I'm female, that I was more trained to take to other people's needs, but I really can't say that would be the issue here as I thought the men and the boys had the same attitude as the women and girls. It couldn't have been that. It has to be about someone having shown us this, taught us that, it got to be a natural thing. It is no use really feeling bad about your ex, the only way something positive will come out of it is that we learn from our mistakes. Often it is only that we have chosen to look at things from a different angle, perspective. I mean, you had no intention to hurt her, right? That's important. That's so important. The on and on theme with my husband when we have had our differences is that he has not placed himself in my situation. He has not trained himself to place himself. Now that he has changed I notice he nowadays does this, on his own, I don't need to point something out. He does this now with everyone. People at work, on the town, private. He's more sensitive. He says he took for granted that everybody would like me, he could not imagine who wouldn't (nice of him to say) and according to him when he did look my way or when we did interact he thought I was doing just fine. He could not tell that something was wrong. Or that he had done something wrong. The way he had been raised was for instance that you limit or are completely against physical tenderness, display, of any kind. I had been raised the opposite. So he had been raised to act this way at social gatherings, with family. This is what he had been taught was how to behave just right, accordingly. Unlike me he had had more of a limited experiences of something else. I was trying to learn, adapt, but it came too close to my heart. I think there are so many worlds in this one world we live in, so many cultures, and cultures for one family and not the next, and it can be subtle things and visible things. It can be about a principle but the very same principle is displayed in two opposite ways. Without the verbal communication and something like this happens, you feel it instantly, and you have this strong reaction to it. Once you, or if you, get to the point that you can talk about it and see it from each other's perspective you then realize both of you were displaying the same thing but been taught to display it opposite ways. I think one mistake me and my husband did - and others did - was that because we look sort of alike, "our" originate, we thought we were the same. Had we talked about these things before they happened we could have discovered it before it got to be this thing and prevented the whole thing from becoming so big. I think that too can be why some culture they clash but when you hit the third generation they all get each other and besides they have been mainstreamed as well to learn so it all works out. On a bad day I would think to myself as I saw myself as ugly pretty (covering it up) that why my husband was so sure that I was the one, that the two of us belonged, is because we sort of looked the same (originate, but we're not). Like he sees himself when he sees me. That could too be about others viewing us as relatives or big brother and little sister. I've read somewhere that couples that look alike can fall in love. 2. And 3 (sorry, I'm already mixing up up, I can't do it) Yes, I have thought about actually telling him, hoping he would get as insecure as I once got about his previous female co-worker to then finally know what it was like to be in my shoes, but then that would be mean and childish, and besides I would not want to put that kind of harm to him or our relationship now when I'm fighting for it to improve. Because too I know what it feels like. I don't want to do that to him. Or us. The whole bizarre situation with his previous female co-worker was that he was showing he was flattered to a dominant such or someone who feels entitled or something has become wrong in this universe when someone like him choses someone like me. I learned a long time ago that girls, women who got flattered was targeted, branded a certain way by certain boys and men. I know there were young women who thought they were popular, but they were not in the category they thought. They were too treated as if they were of a more low status. I'm only sharing you my experiences of this, coming from my world. You have another view of it, experiences, and I respect that. We're both speaking the truth as we know it. When I started working, young, I learned quickly that there were going to be men there that were trying to flatter me, that way, and to me that felt invasive and not professional, and I was not flattered. I did not like it. These men were always older than I was, and few of them were married or had been. They weren't my age. I did not care who they thought they were, I got angry, and I had no trouble giving them a thought of my mind, (which they did not seem to expect). I did not tell anyone else about it. They would not do it again. These things they happened when nobody else was around. I did not know it was something I could or should tell my boss or anything. When I get angry I get angry I guess. I could tell there was something off with this female co-worker of his from the get go, and when ever I get such a feeling it turns out right. It all worsened very quickly from that feeling to how she interacted with my husband and what double face she showed me. She was doing this thing you know where she signals to me one thing, can speak, act one way, double faced, and then she is, of course, the sweetest thing when she's facing him. So all of this goes on behind his back. So I sadly learned that it did no just take me to tell him Look, this is what she said, did, act. It had to take others too to tell him, to tell one another, before he started to show the slightest interest, could conceive that we were actually telling him the truth. I would honestly be shocked if nobody else would be up against what I was up against, even if she was not romantically interested in anyone else beside my husband then, she still had this way to her. I began to get the whole picture, that this female co-worker did in fact not only want him but was trying, had her plan, on to getting him, for real. I never did think I would get any proof of it til I one day did find out she of course had "stalked" (I put " " up there as it was mild such in comparison) me. I believe had he not showed he was flattered by her she would not have taken one more step or two more steps and so on. Had he not shown he was flattered and could be manipulated like that she would not have dared to act the way she did towards me when he was not looking. I have been through enough women who think it is status to themselves if they get his attention that way. Flattering is one thing. I can totally agree with you it's innocent, really, but not when you are flattered by a crazy dominant individual, then it's no game you want to be part of as that is the invitation. There has been times when it's been obvious to him that the woman opposite of him wants him to make that slip, showing some busom, but while I have been staring that direction myself (it's hard not to, even if I'm a woman, I kept thinking don't look that way, don't you dare, don't…!) he actually has kept his focus on her eyes, alone. So if I would have been him I would have failed the test and he would have won. I was rather floored she did this the way she did it (along with the rest of how she acted, that is, whilst doing it) when she knew he belonged to me. I basically stood there like the third wheel. We're all pretending, or she rather taking use of one situation, when it's really a different situation, but because we all have to pretend it's not that situation, there you are. I hate that, when people use one circumstance and get away with murder pretending it is that when we all know it ain't. They take advantage. I thought it was rather disrespectful, but I too know this individual loves attention and wanted that confirmation. It was all about her. Not about me. She had no considering for me. I know too she is proud of her busom so what ever those two gets for confirmation, attention, the world is then the way it should be, by her book. But after my husband was firm, eye contact only, she never did it again, that I know off that is. Sure I was right there and he knew it, but by his attitude he got somewhat irritated by it, as too he's been used to that, before, before us. One time I was at the ladies and heard all this talk about the good looking guy outside, gushing, and I thought OK now I have to see for myself who that guy is. I went out. Who was it? Turns out they were pointing at my husband. He was just strolling along like any other guest there and I honestly don't think he knew they were gushing about him over at the ladies. They did not know we were a couple and I was not one to tell them. I just played along. I thought otherwise I would embarras them. I know it would have been status for one of those women if they got something out of him, at the time. But that too I guess would have been innocent. They did not appear to me like the the future female co-worker experience I would have. You're right, but I've never looked at it like that before, that you guys don't get it as much as we do overall. Ok so now I'm back on track : Number 4: Yeah. he's told me that why he snaps like that is that he feels himself the closest to me and he is more emotionally involved with me than the rest that he treats right. But it looks bad. And it feels bad. we have gone out now to see "my" (initially) people and I have noticed he and I are much more tuned in, we are symmetric to one another, we are socializing with others but we do it different now than how it use to be. I am pleasantly surprised. He wants to take it one step further but that is when my anxiety gets triggered as when ever he has been like that before (bad) it is always when we're with "his" (initially) people. It was the same at work with the female co-worker of his. It is down to me not wanting attention drawn to us for the wrong reasons (or at all really I don't mind being in the background) or him showing me and showing the rest where his loyalty stands (with them, not with me). I've been in enough bad situations with him that over time and with the amount of them it got to the point where I developed anxiety. It can too be about me not being able to leave as easily at all when ever these things has happened, so no way out then, so safe exit that too plays a role. It is safe to say that when I have experienced that "snap", that change in him, is when he is with his people. Me knowing he needs his people too and they need him, but that I can't stand the change (my anxiety) I have then made it clear I'm fine with him socializing on his own with them. Considering how it's been I think I can relate somewhat to my male co-workers wife as she is someone that like me do not like attention drawn to me like that and too her being "shut off" is how I've been shut off from my husband. So she and I actually have that alike. She has not seen me with "my" people or my husband's so she don't know we are the same, she and I. He has not repeated anything flirtatious at all, but he does treat me as if I'm somebody, you know, but in a nice way. Could it be he somehow feels for those of us who don't like attention, like his wife, and then me? I would say he can be serious, he can be fun loving, but nothing more. I always did find it strange he would say something like that in front of everyone, it still don't make any sense to me. The only excuse I have is that he was moving too fast, the don't stop me now, and in a haste it got to be like that. Like I'm hoping it was really something he thought he was telling his wife. That he did not really think before. I have experienced a man (tipsy, if not drunk) confusing me with his wife (we looked similar), but as he could tell it was me he straight away apologized, and I did not make anything of it, as I knew he must have confused us. He too was at the time "don't stop me now!" mood. We just went along pretending it didn't happen. That could happen to anyone. I would not be foolish enough to tell someone of it as that could very well not only embarras him but his wife too. I later learned his wife refused to have them drink when socializing because he couldn't handle it. I would say that the times my husband has snapped like that or all these unpleasant scenes has unraveled themselves it has either been a built up , but then we are both still trapped in the situation, like we can't get out quick enough, we can't leave. The last time he snapped like that we were with his people. He had promised me before to please give him a new shot at it. He said before that he knew all the things he should do to not treat me badly and stand up for me if I was to be treated badly by someone else. I could tell there was this built up inside him but he wasn't showing it to nobody else. He looked out of it. More and more. I was still doing OK but I was inside hoping we could please just go home. I turned to him about something completely innocent, he misunderstood and before I knew it, before any of us knew it, he snapped at me. He has grown up all his life with people fighting right in front of him and he thinks nothing of that, thinking he is "discussing" something when he's really putting me down in front of everyone. To him it's been normal that everyone fights in front of everyone. He has not considered that I'm not with my or our people, or that I don't want attention like that, that he has the upper hand. Too when he is like that I can't reach him. The connection that is there if he is doing OK it's not there so to me it is as if a stranger has taken his place and I feel extremely uncomfortable and alone dealing with him. He has been on me to (again) give it another chance and that THIS time it will be like how he is with my people. I have told him because of how he is like I feel as if I don't belong. Like he should be better off with someone else who is just like him from that perspective. He gets very sorry after he snaps so it is like I'm dealing with two different men. I know it is the anxiety talking, so the snap is the aggressive part of the anxiety, and then afterwards it is the sad part, the fear, the quilt, of the anxiety. I've told him if we are to be with his people again, or could be my people, or our people, then, that he needs to recognize the signals he's having, we have to be able to exit before it gets that bad. This last time he did one thousand things right, but it was that one thing, at the end of the day, that messed all those one thousand things up as well. I have told him if you treat me badly in public then what happens is that other thinks you think that's all I am worth to you, and you show me that too, and that hurts, and too I become a target to those others as well, them knowing you won't stick up for me. So there is a lot of things happening when you do that. Him snapping like that I've witnessed before wit his people, someone else doing it, and so this is what he is used to, he is used to it being OK with one partner treating the other badly in front of everyone and starting what should have been private for the rest to watch. I hate it. I was not brought up like that. No matter all the difficulties I have been through I had a family who would never sell me out. Who would never talk, snap, or yell to me like that in front of others. We had each other's back. I always felt as if I was more important. They were loyal to me that way. I was the same to them. He says he's OK with me snapping at him in front of others or we going at each other with other people present but I'm not. I don't want to be. It's not me. I hope it will never be me. I don't think it's right. Not for us. Not for others present. It's like my system can't take it. Seem to me you have to find a solution that works for you both . Plus if she has not had a trauma, for what ever she brings up again and again when you are arguing then it is bad she does it as it is then used as a weapon against you. If you two have worked that through, you have realized something, a mistake, you have then made a mends for it. The only way forward then, if she too wants to do the work, she can't bring it up again when you are arguing about something else. I understand you need your space and other people and I think that's only good. I think it's good for my husband too. And me too. But we still need to crack this thing about being able to have a successful social life with his people without him getting like that, and before without me getting anxiety of it. He wants to so badly not have me cut out as much as I am from his social life. Whilst before I thought that was the only solution. He would try to get me to visit him at work too, but I refused. I have done it though and it worked out well. HE says thats good, the more we do this thing and the more he behaves right I will feel more safe and will be able to trust him again. He thinks the more we hang out now successfully with my, or our people, the more I will be able to trust him then with his people. We'll see. I know it takes the work of two. I have to do my part too. I hope you had a good night sleep :)

Soulmate, I think it was in the midst of our separation when he hadn't been sleeping, it got more obvious to me he had OCD (We were still living under the same roof). I can't remember if it was me finding the word ocd for it, or if it was that from the consultant or if it was simultaneously, almost. I thought OCD was just someone washing their hands a lot, before. Before I would notice it here and there but small doses of it, not so apparent, but by that time it was hard not to. And I honestly I felt so sorry for him. His anxiety was sky high. He wouldn't take pills. He wouldn't take anything. I can't go into details of what the OCD can look like as it would be a give away. I don't want to do that.

I forgot to add that I do recognize myself so much when you Balance write about how you experience you have bits and pieces of people. And how you are struggling with your relationship right now with your girlfriend, knowing what's good with the relationship and what's not. I have noticed and from what my husband has said is he has his bits and pieces as well. The only relationship he considered or considers emotional, close, is the one he had and has with me. Some study I remember reading somewhere, don't know the source, said that this is typical male, while women tend to have other emotional, close relationship with other women as well. They think it is something in the culture that men can't be vulnerable to one another like that but it shouldn't be true for everyone, like the brotherhood you are referring to. What I've learned is that for most part when I have dared to be vulnerable to a "bit and piece"-person, me taking that next step, is that they don't turn their back on me, but actually appreciate me doing that. One has to be brave enough to take the next step. He has too described why he can snap, get irritated or what ever, at me, is because the way he sees it he is the closest to me than the rest. He has said that's not an excuse for it but he believes that is what has happened. As for us I would notice I would get more sad and he would get more mad, when the anxiety hits, and maybe that is because of that testosterone, but then again I know a family female on his side of family and she is just like him in that regard, so then I don't know what to think. When we were splitting up or going through a very difficult time I remember feeling just like you Balance that I was disappointing at my love life, the past and the present, and why it should be so hard. Like you I do not think there is only one person who is right for you considering how many people are in the world, but lots and lots, actually, statistic wise, but I too know how hard it is. And falling in love is not something that happens to everyone every day, you can't force it. It's not easy, is it? When we were splitting up I thought we had done it all for nothing, and should have thrown in the towel long before we did, but then he reminded me of all the good times and begging me not to give up. He was not on the same page as I was, but I did not know if it was only temporarily that he would change, agree to face what ever mental obstacles there were on his part. I honestly was so sick of myself as the depressions and the anxiety kept coming back. There were bad memories of him I could not get pass when I was not mentally well, but when I was doing a lot better I was able to handle it differently. Almost like this cut in me. Like I was having two realities. I still don't know where we stand exactly as far as telling one another about other flirting with us, if that should now happen. Before I took it for granted was it to happen that we would handle it by ourselves without informing, worrying, making our partner jealous or mad, suspicious, over nothing. That the only thing we had to know is that we trust each other and agree upon what boundaries there are. I seriously began to question where his boundaries were when it concerned that previous female co-worker of his. There has been things that has effected me deeply that he has shown no or little concern for. He pretty much left me alone, thinking it was my problem. He used to tell me that I was sensitive (if or not I was at the time suffering from depression and anxiety) when I did bring something up and that was really him pushing me away. Not taking what I said seriously. Not sensitive to my needs. I did not think that was fair. I was sensitive to his. As for your girlfriend I don't know why of course she choses not to see things from your perspective and what you need to be happy, but it is important she don't think she is running this thing solo, she has chosen to be in a relationship with you, it is two lives coming together. If you say no, it's no. It's no good naturally if someone in the relationship tend to be more selfish and push and push the partner to give in to satisfy her/his own needs. She needs to come around and see your needs. One can't have a successful relationship where one is happy and the other is the opposite. Soulmate, if you read this, I hope I don't come off as being rude or anything. It's just that when it concerns his mental stuff I don't want to disrespect him and write something here I shouldn't. If I should speak from my own perspective of it is that I was used to him being someone who had his things in order, who yes, needed and was in charge of most things in our lives, on top of things, but never have I experienced him being dominant in a sense that I think you and maybe most are referring to but yes, a strong need for control, but still not in the sense, God, it's hard to describe this, the differences. I mean I know it's bad either way if one partner is like that, if too much of it, but there were many things I simply did not care about, did not think were that important, they were more important to him to have it a certain way, and so for me it wasn't that kind of sacrifice. But when it was something that was important, but important to him too, I had to fight like hell and beyond to get it my way, and at times I did not have the strength to do that so I kind of took step backs and surrender, did not care, it was as if I lost my own fire, my own good energy, that I was the one who had to stand back. He has finally learned that he has to give in but as he has not had the same level of anxiety and gone through what he has, it is almost as if he is not the same person anymore, and we are both more involved than before, we are going into the same direction and supporting each other more. There are times when I can tell he has developed a great deal, more than I have, where he just sort of waits for me to too get there and trust him. He says he remind himself of what he needs to consider. When I did discover him doing his digital supervision of me in secret I had all kinds of thoughts about it. One was if he was collecting potential proof in a future divorce but then again I did not understand what the purpose of that would be. I thought about if he or his family and all the talk about money, if it could be about that. I was never the one to push him to marry me. I offered him and his family a prenup for his and theirs sake because I never wanted any trouble later on would they be a divorce. He and they did not want to hear of it. So then I thought it couldn't be that. Knowing what I know about this need for control and have things in order, and the OCD then, I landed in that he needed it for himself, for him to not worry or get anxiety, not knowing where I was at. I have felt he has in the past failed to emotionally protect me against things he should have, when I truly needed him to. But when it concerned any physical protection he was right there. Always he would instantly, physically, make it clear, when there was a threat of any kind, that he was my protector. He would not talk of it. Physically too if and when we had fought he would make sure that I would physically be in a safe environment so he would take off only after he knew I would stay where I stayed. He would not talk about that either. He considered me to have a much less temper than he had, so when he felt he was loosing it he would leave, but I knew he would be back when he had calmed down. The one time I left before he did he went frantic, it got twice as bad, as that element that stepped in where he did not know where I was, how long I was going to stay away, what was happening, dark outside, and so on. I don't know what it is like to be left the way I left him so I do feel quilt about doing that to him. I don't think I was prepared for how strong the reaction would be. I know it is me leaving him, us going back and forth like this in the past, that woke everything up and made things worse when we were trying to make it work, when he wasn't doing any good (because of other things that had happened, not about us, effecting him).

I made some errors, I apologize, before, when writing about him having to give up, it sounds bad, but what I meant was give up at times too, see things from my perspective too. I have learned that when you are really stern and stubborn about something it could be that you are afraid. You come off as one thing but in reality you are another. "...any trouble later on would they be a divorce", meant would there be a divorce, sorry. I have most likely made few more errors, but can't find them for now, LOL.

Just bumping you up for this weekend...:)

Thank you Soulmate :) I hope you'll have a good weekend! I'm sorry i write like this mad man, all those words, I hope you are not too sick of me, LOL but understand if you guys are. I've never been no good at shorten things up, you know? Anyways, what's new about the situation that I initially asked of advice is that my husband he turns up now and then - surprise - at my work or outside my work. Not like before though when I could tell he wasn't doing so good mentally. I can tell he's doing fine these days when he does turn up. It still surprises me. At first, at an instant I return to the old me, get tense or think I'm in trouble somehow, but then that feeling goes away. I am still a little afraid if the male co-worker will say or do something in his presence that will make him react. I mean I still don't know if saying something is the right thing to do. Or handle it myself and not say something is the right thing to do.

I apologize Geelives, I've been meaning to respond to this for several days now. I still don't think I have a good opportunity to read and absorb everything and respond just yet. Today actually would have been a good opportunity for me to do that, but I was doing other things. But I do want to say that I am still planning on getting back to you at some point. Actually, probably within the next couple of weeks here... I should have more chances to come on here and give feedback. But I'm not sure what June is looking like at the moment. Things could be a little hectic for a few weeks yet. I know I haven't read everything else here, but in response to that last post, do you think your husband shows up at your work partly because of concern about things with you, still? Or is it mostly because he just wants to surprise you and come see you, and see how you're doing at work? (And maybe, also, to buy things at your workplace.) I'm still around. It will probably take me a few days to catch up here.

If allowed I am going to give my own thoughts about this problem I have and see if I get any wiser. I hope nobody minds. Soo...thinking back... I knew I had stronger boundaries when it came to the opposite gender than what my husband had. I have been told and seen "me too" things done to him by women during the course of our relationship. My personal opinion, experiences, is that women get away with doing a whole lot more "me too"-stuff than would it be the other way around these days. It's up to the guys to do something about that if they don't like that. As well as these women of course that you wished knew better but unfortunately for everyone else these kind of people exist, and if they can't behave right and step into someone else's area than it is up to the other person to do something about it. It was up to him to do something about it then. He would wait to do something or he would act indifferent to it. He did not seem to understand that him having weaker boundaries than I had made an impact on me as well. That it was disrespectful acts of these women to do that to me, if knowing we were a couple or knowing he was not single. I knew that he would just call me jealous if and when I would say something, pointing the blame at me, not him and the other woman or women. He would defend not just himself but the other woman. His loyalty would be there. Right there ,with them. He would view me as the aggressive one, the enemy. He would just see it as if he was an innocent bystander and me falsely accusing him of something. I would tell him my thoughts when I was hurt, angry, when my first instinct, what I wanted to do was to run away, terminate the relationship, not speak or see him ever again. It took everything I had to just sit down on the sofa and dare to open myself. Give him that gift, which is what it is, I gave him a second chance to repair the damage he, or they, had done to me. I should not have done that. Should never have given him that second chance. Should have just left. Or told him to leave. He wasn't ready for it. Instead I was to be humiliated twice. It was as if he did not understand. Or did not care that these women he did not reject the way he had to when he had to - they would come after me. And they did. They would keep on doing what they were doing or they would take further steps into our circle, or should I say his and her circle, I was outside of it because he - they - made me outside of it. That should never have happened. He should have pushed her out sooner, she should never have taken one step into our circle to start with. Because he had let something in - that something would start to poison me. That the woman was double faced was too as if it was of no concern of his, as long as he got the sweet side to her, what did he care if me or the rest got the opposite? He did not stick up for us. You were alone with him. That was not how I had pictured him knowing how involved he was when it concerned other things. I was to learn though, over time and these experiences with him, where finally his boundaries were. I guess when I did get to that stage, or he did, that even if I had wished he had done something about it sooner, I could rest assure that when he did, that was it. It did not go any further. He would go as far as cutting people out of his life, good people, just because there was someone else in that group of people that had hit on him (hard) and he did not want me to know of it at the time. But I found out. Later. It did not occur to me that I should act just the way he acts then, I should have just as weak boundaries to the opposite sex, because that would be me really loosing my point, my standard wouldn't it? Besides I would still not be comfortable having weak boundaries like that, I would not be able to stand for it, no matter if he would be OK with it or not. But I know I played with the thought. OK so if you get to act like this in our relationship then I can act just the same then. And that's OK. That is the type of low quality you brought into this relationship. Sure, let's play. Let's see how you like that. But I could not bring myself to do it because it wasn't me. I would not be able to stand myself. Plus I would not want to use some other innocent guy to fit into my plan of revenge to prove a point my husband should have known already. I have heard from someone else who use to be in a relationship with this guy who others thought was too so good looking and how she felt during this time that the relationship lasted. If it was not one big chase of her trying to make herself look as beautiful and compete, it was about knowing, feeling all the looks of the others, the same that I experienced, no matter where you went. She said that after the break up she could not have been more relieved it was over. Like me she thought what these women were doing was given far more tolerance not just by the immediate surrounding but by the boyfriend too, allowing more than he should. So it was as if you were in two fights at the same time. You can't continue to be in a situation day and night, night and day for as long as that, without it taking a toll on you. Before you say: You know what I am so tired. I am so stressed out. I am so pissed off. It is much easier if I just give this guy up. He will continue to be the way he is. He has been like this before, I bet. He will continue. And these other women - they will continue. I'm out. Go ahead, if anyone else is up for it. I'm done. When his OCD jealousy hit big time he was jealous of my past which is not much to be jealous of, to be fair, and I felt powerless because there was nothing I could do about it, we were talking about the past and I could not change the past. And the past happened before and if I was to ever know I was to meet him. I would ask him if it was a fault in my character that he was reacting to, in fear I would still have that in me, and there for he could not trust me as in present time or future, if that was it? But it was as if I could get no clear answer to it. He would state that he did not know what it was but that he could not stand the thought of him knowing I had been with someone else beside him. But he too had been with someone else before me, that he could stand? It was as if he was too weighting these past relationship with the current one I had with him, and I would say don't you get it, you're the winner then, I'm with you now aren't I? If that was so great back then would I still not be in it? I'm not. I got out. I got out because it wasn't so great for us. I'm with you because I chose to be. That was not my choice back then. I could get it if I had been left, not the one to terminate the relationship, but then again it can be a narrow line between who leaves and who stays. The main thing that should have mattered was I still having feelings for an ex and no, I didn't. I had gone past that. Like way before I even met my husband. I did have some really bad memories, experiences with the ex that could be I had not, all of them, fully processed, but that was a different manner. It was no wonder, really. I was with a cruel man who did cruel things to me. It would have been surprising, to say the least, had I been with a cruel man who did all good to me. I know myself one time during my relationship with my ex that I had thought of leaving him thinking it was because of him, our relationship that I wasn't happy, but I promised myself to stay til I knew for sure that it wasn't me. I was still blaming myself or other stressful factors for it. I was still in it. I was still in it to try to change this thing around. He took so advantage of that. Me not understanding what was going on. I allowed myself to stay too long. During which he apparently was not in it to improve the relationship but to put even more damage to it. It got to a point when I felt we were going nowhere but down, we were not in this together, not for the same reasons, he wanted nothing but to bring me down, so by then I dropped him and let him continue on his way down then, because I was done with being treated badly or have him treat our relationship that badly: I was done being with a guy who took advantage of me actually staying with him, giving us this last chance. There was this moment when I finally woke up. When I knew: No more. No way in hell I could take no more of this. They can ask how do you know? You know when you can not take 1% of it anymore. Because of the ugly face my ex had in terms of his actions I knew that there was no way I would ever want this ugly face of a guy "beside" me in any future situation that were painful or stressful in any way. I did not care how "sorry" he was. And boy, was he "sorry". I wanted this ugly face of a guy as far away from me as possible. I was way better on my own. I got myself back. I was more angry with myself than anything for allowing me to have been treated like this. Waiting for us to fight this thing together. Waiting for the guy that I first fell in love with to reappear because honestly this was why I was in it. As if I was so slow. Like where did that guy go to? Why isn't he coming home? Why this guy? This cruel person. So cruel. I can't imagine being that cruel to nobody. Nobody deserved that. It was just this moment: Now I see you. There was no way the guy I thought he had been could say or do anything to make up for that kind of cruelty. I waited in vain. I waited getting more and more abused in the meanwhile. Then I thought He's not coming, is he? And truth is had he even been real, had he ever been that type of a guy, that image he sold me, that image I built, I could not tell who's fault that was, then he would never have been able to say and do these cruel things to me, to our relationship. Had he been real it would never have happened. He would not have allowed himself to behave that way. So the truth was: He never was. There was nobody good guy to bury. He had been this illusion. This dream I had hunted. This one bit I had and then wanted another. But the apple was sour, inside, a mask in it. What ever polish this apple had gotten from somewhere it was not how the apple would have looked like in it's true nature. Just polish surface. By me. By someone else. By him. Who cared. It was still fake. How is that something to be jealous of?

You're in a difficult spot, trying to balance being professional at work and protecting your husband's feelings. You’ve done nothing wrong—being polite isn't the same as encouraging flirtation. With your colleague, you don’t need to entertain the behavior. A neutral or firm response, or even walking away, can set a quiet boundary. As for your husband, if you feel safe doing so, consider sharing things in a calm way, focusing on how you’re handling the situation, not on what others are doing. You shouldn’t have to carry this alone. You deserve respect and peace—both at home and at work.

"I'm sorry i write like this mad man" Huh? I thought you were a woman? Well, anyway... SORRY, GeeLives, I don't want to be mean, but I can't do this. Every single thing you post about what he says, how, when, every inappropriate intigative or reactive act and behaviour..... You just. keep. describing... a hugely controlling, constantly manipulating and gaslighting Narcissist. I've run out of Ticks. You'd hit the end of your tether, finally, and all he's doing lately, is what Narcs who don't want to lose their 'cushy number' but realise they've gone too far do: gone to ground. For a while. You, the victim, THINK/HOPE DESPERATELY that things are changing/have changed. But they just wait until the dust settles and you feel safer and relax again, and then "suddenly", before you know it, everything from before has crept back in (been SNEAKED back in), or he's replaced his old control and fallacies-creating tactics with new ones. I'm sorry, but I've seen this a thousand. times. before. It's a Fauxlationship.... HE DOESN'T CARE. HIS CONSTANT ACTIONS SAY SO - *indisputably* if you ask me. He only cares about himself; you're useful, controllable, dupable where he's concerned, a whole-package, cushy number. And, you can't see it, but he's also constantly been trying to set you up in public as The Baddie (swat narx do). Google about the malignant Narcissist's Playbook, including the Slander Campaign (and why). To those who are knowledgeable and have been through and out of your situation, it's very uncomfortable to see someone so severely Trauma Bonded and interpreting everything through the lens of a normal bloke when he is nothing LIKE a normal, decent bloke, KNOWING that Pathological means incurable. And it's too frustrating when the gaslighting is this severe but the victim cannot or refuses to see what to us is just too obvious, and unwittingly tries to pass on his gaslit narratives/explanations/excuses. It's almost like reading something like this: "...And then he punched me, full-fist, in the eye...but it was okay because later, when he could see I was considering leaving, he explained I'd had a wasp on my eyebrow (which - I didn't even feel, so - good job I've got HIM to look out for me!),... and that he was so worried I'd be injured in the eye that he killed it, dead, before it could do me any damage". Plus, your (- his!) justification and validation of his atrocious behaviour could confuse all over again any survivors here who haven't recovered sufficiently from their own Fauxlationship break-up plus No Contact, to stay strong and determined. I can't have that, sorry. Trauma Bonding is the NPD version of Stockholm Syndrome, btw. Can you understand? PLUS, THAT WAS *NOT* A CONSULTANT'S DIAGNOSIS YOU'RE DESCRIBING (...describing yet strangely can't recall, this such monumental event). Balance can continue with you for a bit longer if he wants but while you're in this state, please stop trying to advise your advisor because you're not 'qualified' to offer anyone else any help or wisdom while in that mindset. You need to focus on yourself until you're fit to decide, seriously, about whether you are the very, VERY rare type whom can tolerate living a (non-)married life like this...- this suffocating, You-shrinking, general-health-and neurology-harming into sanity-eroding 'union'. You - SEPARATELY - need to speak to your doctor about being YOU being referred to a therapist, JUST FOR YOU and how YOU feel about it all, who is aware and knowledgeable about NPD. Your situation is too involved and complicated for a forum/online intervention. You need that person who can dedicate proper time to you. Sorry. :(

Maybe you COULD improve this marital state. But NEVER while you're trying to deny what others before me have tried to convince you of, regarding what he is (and what you therefore AREN'T to him). It'd be like you, a blind person, trying to change a lightbulb when your 'person on the ground' were lying about where on the ceiling the bulb socket was located. That light is NOT going to eventually turn ON, is it. So, therefore, all your efforts get reduced to nothing but your endless attempts to nail jelly to the ceiling. Face up to what he is and deal with THAT - if dealing with is something you actually find satisfying. Or insist on TOGETHER getting a second opinion from a different (more outspoken?) consultant-psychiatrist. (WAS the first guy even a psychiatrist, I wonder.)

GeeLives, I think Lisa Romano is the one you want. In fact, probably her books alone would do it (check them out): ((my comments and corrections)) ____________________________________________________ https://www.lisaaromano.com/blog/covert-narcissist-signs-redflags ((Yours is a Covert Vulnerable, btw. Note he ticks virtually every box (and Lisa doesn't even include ALL of their signs and characteristics, this is just a selection! I think the fact he's DIFFERENT to your past Narcs is what's been confusing you, because Covert IS the most difficult type/style to spot and seem NOT to be anything like the however-much-more Overt lot. It's an highly common stumbling block against correct identification by the victim, therefore falling for them. HIGHLY common. It's said, usually, Narcs come in threes (meaning three increasingly - or if one's already on the way to healing - decreasingly severe types...Depends...). But whether you love them or not is beside the point. Their mental illness does TERRIBLE things to the minds and bodies of Non-Narcissists...and especially Empaths (given the choice).)) "Have you ever fallen for a shy, vulnerable, unassuming narcissist, who you eventually discovered felt entitled to exploit your empathy? Covert Narcissists Use Sob Stories to Gain Your Trust It is not easy to spot a covert narcissist. They can appear timid, shy, and insecure. Their goal is to manipulate you into submission by appearing to be a safe person all the while below the surface, a sinister agenda is waiting to unfold. Covert narcissists embrace the role of victim and use their victimhood as a way to manipulate others into emotional submission. Their goal is to exploit their victims emotionally, financially, and or spiritually. They are secretly angry and feel entitled to abuse others and distort their victim's reality to achieve their goal of dominance in the relationship. Some signs and symptoms of a covert narcissist include: passive aggressive comments a need to nitpick partners causing others to feel like what they do is never good enough hold grudges long after others have apologized or moved on highly critical of others finds faults in others and expresses them with rage, grandiosity highly sensitive to criticism reacts poorly to any feedback that is not positive sees themselves as the victim of others, when there has been no offense Podcast On Covert Narcissist: Signs and Symptoms In this podcast on covert narcissism, you will learn more about the signs of covert narcissism you might want to make yourself aware of. Red flag You're Dealing with a Covert Narcissist A common red flag that signals you're dealing with a covert narcissist, is your propensity to record conversations with them ((OR TO EVEN HAVE THAT OCCUR TO YOU)). Covert narcissists spin tails ((tales)), recreate history, deny facts, and question your perception of reality, as ways to manipulate you into a state of dependency. Once you doubt your perception of reality ((e.g. 'Is he right?...WAS it the way I approached him with my issue last night?')), and after you've attached to an abuser, trauma bonding comes into play, reinforcing your need to depend upon the one who has scrambled your brain. Your distrust in yourself, your thoughts, and your emotions instill tremendous insecurity and anxiety within you. As you awaken and begin to educate yourself on the signs of covert narcissists, you may discover yourself needing to record your conversations with a narcissist. You may also print out text messages and offer them to friends and family as a way to help you reorient yourself to reality. ((I just want to reiterate where I'm coming from, okay? IDENTIFY what he (your problem) IS. And THEN you will know what tactics and tools for the job you'll need to actually succeed. Hell, gal, if you can be the first person I've ever met to retrain/reprogramme a Covert-Vuln. Narc of HIS severity - I will be the FIRST to give you a Standing Ovation! But if you''re going to play Psychotherapist, at leasst 'KNOW THY PATIENT'. Okay? And by the same vital importance: '...And thine own PATIENCE'. Me, a marathon-runner mentally and physically, I got very close to retraining a couple of my Nexes but, not even I whom has the patience of a Saint - 'Saint Take-The-Piss' (and make comedy lemonade out of any lemons) could manage to finish that gigantic, ME-eroding project. There's being stuck-hard in unhealthy habits of attitude/relating and then there's NPD and being CEMENTED in. It's too much. ...Like them.)) If you've ever felt the need to have other people listen in on conversations you've had with a narcissist because you are afraid that maybe you are crazy, you've most likely experienced gaslighting, which is a common narcissistic trait. If you are confused and full of self-doubt because you can't make heads or tails out of your relationship, I hope this podcast can help clear things up for you. COVERT NARCISSIST SIGNS PODCAST We Can All Be Narcissistic Sometimes Maybe we can all be narcissistic from time to time, and get lost in our emotions and ego, however, when it comes to someone who has a narcissistic personality disorder, we are NOT talking about someone who finds it easy to experience empathy toward others. In fact, narcissists THRIVE off of dominating others, through various tactics from the double edge sword of a backhanded compliment, to nitpicking, to gaslighting, and an array of various psychological manipulation tools as well. Healthy people SELF CORRECT. They might not enjoy constructive criticism but they know on some level, that they should probably heed some well-intended advice if they want their lives to improve. And, once we see something not so pretty or handsome within us, we set out to change it for good! We know our actions have wounded others and we can feel that hurt within ourselves too. Our empathy allows us to self-correct so that we can continually improve our relationships with others and ourselves. Lisa A. Romano was voted the #1 Most Influential Person of 2020 by Digital Journal and one of the top 10 Most Inspirational Women of 2021 according to Yahoo Finance. She is a Life Coach and Bestselling Author who specializes in Codependency and Narcissistic Abuse Recovery. Her YouTube Channel has over 400K subscribers, and her 12 Week Breakthrough Coaching Program has helped thousands, including psychologists and even neuroscientists, release painful emotions from the past. Romano’s approach is seen as groundbreaking and highly effective for creating the inner transformations all human beings are capable of. To learn more about Lisa and her online programs, books, speaking events and support groups, visit https://www.lisaaromano.com/12wbcp " I'll try to find more stuff for you as "strums your pain with his/her fingers" (- Roberta Flack). Trust me, when you 'spot' him described too closely, you will SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RELIEVED.

((Clearly not English, but ignore that.)) https://udante.com/narcissistic-red-flags-to-your-checklist/#google_vignette "Identifying the narcissist at an earlier stage is not something that always happens. Survivors wish they knew about the red flags of the narcissist earlier and avoided the narcissist. But it isn’t that easy to find snakes in the forest, isn’t it? This article lists the narcissistic red flags for you to resemble your past, learn in the present, and be ready for the future. Red flags of a narcissist are often neglected by the people’s ignorance and love for the person. The one who ignores the red flags is the one who gets trapped in an abusive relationship. Since narcissists are masters at manipulating you and hiding their noxious secrets, ignoring the red flags isn’t your fault. Apart from all that, you are now looking for solutions, learning about narcissism, and healing from those abusive experiences. Let’s spread awareness about the narcissistic red flags and help the community avoid narcissists. What are narcissistic red flags? For people who wonder what this is, Narcissists cannot hide their true selves forever, and so, within the time being, their behavior will get exposed either by themselves or through the circumstances. Knowing about narcissistic red flags will help you indicate the narcissist far quicker and evade an abusive relationship. What are the red flags of a narcissist? We are delving into several red flags you probably encountered before or may experience in the future. So, take note or download the narcissistic red flags checklist given below to refer to it throughout your life. Just a reminder, if you find any narcissistic red flags here relevant to what you have experienced, feel free to vent it on the comment section. This platform is for you to vent out your emotions. Let’s share our thoughts and help the community. Note the red flags given in this article, analyze the person, and note it on the checklist if you have doubts like “Am I dating a narcissist?” “Are my parents narcissists?” “Why am I getting traumatic experiences around the people I love?” “Are my friends toxic?” 1. The look of Narc’s friends on you Narcissists most likely don’t bring their friends to your life. But if they tend to do, the narcissist probably wants to exhibit their socializing skills. On such occasions, narcissists’ friends’ eyes will tell stories about your narc’s past. It’s not the eyes of the narc’s friends that hate you but surprisingly, they see you in a pitying manner. If you looked closely, you could feel the doubts in their mind, like, “How does she even end up with him?” You know that they knew something about your Narc partner, and that is how the friends of narcissists are." ((Unless they're (google) "Flying Monkeys".)) 2. Have very low to zero friends There are different types of narcissists but possess similar abusive patterns. The only difference is their personality and red flags. The grandiose and malignant narcissists usually have more friend circles to get the center of attention between others. But covert or vulnerable narcissists keep their traits hideous ((hidden)) by having no one around them. Such narcissists treat their friends so badly that no one wishes to stick with them. Even though they claim to have friends, they won’t let you interact with them. If you tried to interact, you could feel that the friends are not even close and rarely ((barely?)) even acquaintances. 3. Doesn’t like your friends ((and/or family or just anyone switched-on, who cares and isn't afraid to voice their concerns and suspicions (in private) to make you pay more attention, and keep you grounded and less vulnerable/susceptible)) Narcissists hate the victim with support. So, they manipulate you to give full attention to them, leaving your friends behind. They often refuse to interact with your friends and project them as toxic ones. Narcissists fear your friends’ questioning eyes and get anxious knowing that you have external support. 4. Double standards for the friends of the opposite sex Narcissists are very good at triangulating people and playing with their emotions. They intentionally introduce someone of their opposite sex and make you feel jealous. ((while accusing YOU of somehow being a seductress)) But in your case, you just cannot even introduce a genuine friend of the opposite gender to the narcissist. If that happens, the narcissist will try to project you as a cheater by saying, “Oh, who’s that guy you are close with? Are you planning on cheating me?” “You are flirting with her like she’s your girlfriend.” ((When you so are NOT. Not anything of the sort.)) Narcissists do this as they want them to be the only opposite gender you must rely on. This is one of the crucial narcissistic red flags to notice; otherwise, they would spoil your whole friend circle of yours. Read: Are Cheaters Narcissists? ((- usually, yup; repeat offenders, definitely)) 5. Never hangouts with your people If you are in a relationship, you are probably dreaming of a future with your partner, and that’s what love is. But narcissists do not see any future with you despite seeing you as a controlling ((controllable)) toy. So, engaging with your people can lead to trouble in the future. To avoid this, narcissists avoid hanging out with people close to you, especially your family. ((Depends on whether they can tell the family is trusting, naiive, and dominate-able or not.)) So remember this red flag, One who is not ready to meet your people does not wish your life to be good either. 6. Dislikes anything you like (Obviously NOT during Honeymoon (hooking and having the effect of drugging you).) When you start dating a narcissist, it looks like everything goes as you intend to be. They resonate with whatever you like and project it as you both have a lot in common. But in time, the red flag will appear right in front of you. The narcissist will always dislike anything you like; for example, if you like a popular show and so does everyone, the narcissist won’t. The narcissist will ask you to change your perceptions to what ((only)) they ((themselves)) like ((and want)); otherwise, they refuse to spend time with you. This act of the narcissist is to test their control over you, especially at the beginning of the abuse. (Mention what your narcissist likes in you at first but dislikes later in the comments). 7. Monologues about themselves ((not necessarily; many interview/interrogate you, dressed-up as finding you riveting while, really, collecting future ammunition to fling at you, especially if you out-argue them in a verbal fight. Later down the line - maybe.)) Narcissists can hide anything but not their sense of grandiosity and entitlement. They are self-centered people who have inflated self-esteem. So, whatever the narcissist talks about, it is always “me, myself, I.” Narcissists are not great listeners as they don’t want to hear others’ wishes, dreams, and feelings. ((opinions, protests, rights, needs, demands...)) Instead, they insist on bringing themselves into the topic and monologue about themselves in any conversation you discuss with them. The discussion with narcissists will always be one-sided, ignoring your feelings and requests. Monologues of narcissists can happen on the first day of your date, so be conscious of the red flag while engaging with them. 8. Admits about their traits ((when they're Devaluing you and you're trying to protest/sort it, yes)) Narcissists are proud of how they are, and so they blatantly accept that they are evil, toxic, self-proud, mentally ill, and narcissistic. Narcissists are more charming at the start of any relationship and so, many of us miss seeing this red flag. ((The entire reason why the victim doesn't leave/end it is because they want their Prince or Princess Charming - the person they fell intensely in-love with - to come back - and STAY 'back' (google "Narc - Jekyll & Hyde"). After his/her initial, super.person/lover performance, it is too hard a concept to get your head around, that that was an act - to lure you in - and although you might be taunted or rewarded (or your resolve to this-time leave attacked) with quick bursts of seeming reappearances of said 'angel', only when we accept what they are behind that whole (at-first) 24/7 act and that the prince/princess isn't ever coming back because they never existed in the first place, does our fear/dread of leaving diminish in contrast to our fear/dread, now, of STAYING.)) Most narc survivors used to regret ignoring this red flag, but anyone in that position would have done the same. We empaths assume that one who acknowledges their traits tend to correct it, but it is not the case with narcissists. ((Correct. They'll say something like - 'Oh, I KNOW I'm a greedy pig where cake's concerned, yes!' (when that minimises how offputtingly like a selfish PIG they acted in-front-of your rellies)...as if admitting it is a conversation-ender! You naturally assume an unspoken ending, being 'So I'll do something about that, then, if it upsets you'. But, NO. It's just - Yeah, I know..What of it? (they don't care how you feel about anything unless it's someone they WANT to hear.)) You may have ignored this trait previously, but be cautious enough to note this red flag next time. 9. Always be negative Being negative most of the time is a clear red flag to indicate vulnerable or covert narcissists. The covert or vulnerable narcissist has no empathy and always has a sense of anxiety and shame. These people are insecure about everything they have and seek immense validation to survive. They have significantly less to zero personal growth and promote negativity all time. They fear the after-effects of even simple things and choose to avoid loss or shame. ((And won't even attempt anything new that they think they won't succeed/win at.)) This type of red flag is often found in covert narcissists as they try to seek validation from their partners by promoting negativity and inability to do things. 10. Always try to cross your boundaries You may not have a well-built boundary during the relationship with the narcissist. But everyone has some rules/habits that we like to have. The narcissist will try to push those buttons to see how strong your boundaries are around them. For example, if you don’t want anyone to use your cosmetics, or if you hate others waking you up in the early morning, the narcissist will do that and laugh it off if you get angry. ((- and/or making out you're being petty by protesting)) 11. Yes, these might look like simple things initially. But starting from this will lead to the days when they laugh it off your emotions, scream, and cries. ((YUP...which he's already doing...ref irritated or disinterested in your distress. PS: He isn't being abusive because he's angry/irritated. He's angry/irritated because he's Abusive.)) 11. Mocks you in front of others Having a friendship with narcissists is one of the exhaustive things in life. They treat you as not more than a tool to use and control as they wish. Narcissists love attention in a group. So, they try to attract people by acting funny and trolling people close to us. The trolls aren’t simple but reveal our secrets and insecurities in front of others. If you react, you can expect them to say, “Chill dude, it’s just a joke.” “You can’t even take a joke, lol.” “Are you a child to take this into a serious issue?” These are the dialects you get from the narcissist in return. But, when you mock them around in a funny manner, be ready to face the rage in the narc’s face as they can’t even take a joke for real. ((You're the slave/underling - all the rules are for you; they're the master so they're above any rules. "Narcs - Gross Hypocrisy" /"Do as I say, not as I do")) 12. Never forgets what you did One of the major red flags of narcissists is that they cannot forget any simple narcissistic wound like not supporting them for fighting with a neighbor that hurts their self-pride. Narcissists won’t forget those scenarios and always bring them to provoke you into a fight. They bring back ((bring up)) ((inappropriately)) that irrelevant past scenario to make your point useless and control you during the argument. ((Meme: Narcissists will never forget what you "did" a year ago, but forget the abuse they did yesterday.)) 13. In desperate need of attention and validation If anyone knows this is a red flag, they can easily indicate a narcissist too quickly. Being needy for attention and validation is the typical red flag for any narcissist. Some narcissists, like malignant and grandiose, try to do random stunts maliciously to gain attention. Whereas the vulnerable and covert narcissists directly ask for it by acting codependent and obsessive. 14. Bunch of Fake promises ((google "Narc - Future-Faking")) When it comes to narcissistic relationships, it is filled with a bunch of fake promises. It doesn’t look like a red flag as they keep procrastinating the promises they made until the abusive phase starts. The faking of promises is known as future-faking to get our hopes high on the relationship. Promises are more valued in a romantic relationship, isn’t it ((aren't they))? The narcissists understand that and pour promises like “I’m waiting for the day to meet your parents to talk about our marriage.” “I want to give you a most valuable gift next Christmas.” “I will love you forever, have two kids with you, and be happy for the rest of our lives.” 15. Flirty from the start Being ((overly)) flirty with a person you love isn’t wrong, but not at the initial “get to know” stage. Narcissists are dared to ((dare to)) flirt with their friends and manipulate them into relationships. They may look charming at the first impression while flirting, but they also get bored within a concise period. The red flag is that the narcissist persists in flirting back quickly and validating their flirting skills. 16. Rushes in Love Most narcissistic relationships happen too quickly, from the start of the relationship and the abusive process. Narcissists hate things that take patience, passion, discipline, and determination. That is why they don’t like to work hard to be successful. Although successful narcissists are talented, they cheat or consume others to achieve something. ((Some, on the other hand, are obsessed with work (making their first Million), in which case, they tend not to be able to handle a pretend relaationship alongside and you'll be horribly ignored and neglected.)) They want everything quickly ((and make-out it's because they're so bowled-over by you)), and so, the narcissists hassle ((you)) in relationships and expect you to cope with it. If they flirt, you must too, or if they say ‘I love you,’ you should too ((whether it's premature or not)); That is how narcissists want the relationship to be going. “Love you” is the word narcissists throw around like tossing food to the pigeons.” 17. Says their previous partners were crazy ((or (Covert = Hidden) leads you to/lets you believe they were)) Narcissists won’t admit their mistakes and blame shift the faults on others. When someone intends to get into a relationship, they will/should question their partner’s previous relationships. Narcissists straight up say that their previous partners were toxic and abusive ((WHEN THEY WEREN'T, is the point)). To prevent you from digging for more answers, they play the victim card by saying, “I don’t want to remember the past.” “Don’t trigger my traumas.” 18. Will always mention about their ex Narcissists try to deplete your self-worth ((thus confidence thus allure)) by all means. As a first step, your narcissistic partner will bring their previous partners into conversations. The context of the conversation will always be comparing you with their exes. Although they don’t blatantly compare you, but say things that make you insecure of things you never thought of and down ((lower)) your self-worth. “I can’t forget how strong my ex’s voice was; yours is good tho.” “My ex is really good at sex; I can even remember how my last sex is with him.” 19. Have multiple social media accounts to stalk ((Coverts are the subtle/invisible, sneaky stalkers; they have 'their public' and Nice Guy reputation to protect. Spaths want to realise they're stalking you, and need to protect their Trustworthy Guy impression/reputation.)) Romantic relationships with narcs are toxic as they are engaged with their previous partners. Although the narcissists’ ex moved on, the narcissist won’t, which will also happen after you get separated. The narcissist will eventually start stalking you and may continue forever. They use social media to stalk over their exes (including you) to see how they are progressing in their life. Having multiple social media accounts is a big narcissistic red flag! Whatever they may say to convince you. ((You saw and realised this with that mate of yours you've just 'nailed to the wall', didn't you, Balance.)) 20. Being overly sexual ((or the distinct opposite - 'all-of-a-sudden')) Sexual narcissists ((Somatics - as opposed to Cerebrals)) ((Coverts tend to be the latter in fact)) are more likely to have drug addictions and sexual cravings than other types of narcissists. They are self-assured in their sexual abilities and are usually good in bed. They may treat their partners as if they were a sex machine, threatening to leave you at any time if you refuse. ((Mmmm, no, actually, that's more your Narc Spath while Devaluing you. The Covert will just NOT. And, point-blank refuse to discuss it. The Covert Vulnrable will claim impotence/rape trauma triggering or something (anything!).)) They just try to speak about sex and turn every instance into a sex time. Being romantic is cool, but over-sexual is not, remember. The narcissist doesn’t want you but wants sex with you. The time when you realize that you have been used, the feeling of betrayal is worse than a breakup. 21. Criticize people who aren’t talented as them Dealing with narcissists at the workplace leads to stress and anxiety, resulting in a toxic work atmosphere. You can see straight away that some people just casually disrespect you for not knowing something. Such actions are to be marked as a red flag. Even though they intend to teach you after, they always try to devalue you. Simultaneously, the narcissist will tend to allot more work to add pressure and find a reason to disrespect. 22. Silent Treatment if you confront So, while confronting someone, keep an eye out for narcissistic red signs. If you confront a narcissist about their behavior, they will usually respond in one of these ways. Firstly, they will go silent and ignore you unless you stop confronting them. The other will be listed as a narcissistic red flag below. While confronting a narcissist, their strong ((strongly faked, more like)) self-esteem prevents them from admitting their errors ((author means their basless Pride)). As a result, they feel threatened and annoyed when their superior intuition is questioned and harmed. They opt to ghost you as a form of retaliation for confronting them until you apologize for no apparent reason. 23. Twists the reality One can often witness this narcissistic red flag inside a narcissistic family. Narcissists twist the reality as the situation never happened or are portrayed differently when you confront them. They change the scenarios that suit their agenda. For example, if you have a narcissistic mother-in-law, and you confront her for disrespecting you in front of your husband; She will casually respond, “I will ((would)) never say that; my son knows about me.” “Why are you lying? Are you planning to separate my son and meme and my son ((my son and I))?” “Hey, son, I never intend to disrespect her; I said it in a lovely manner being her mom.” If your husband is an enabler of your narcissistic mother-in-law, she can easily manipulate him and act like a victim. 24. Try to turn you into codependent This narcissistic red flag is commonly found with malignant or grandiose narcissistic parents or spouses who try to turn their victims into codependents. They will do all your tasks while devaluing you parallelly to imply that personality ((huh?)). They never intend to teach moral values and good habits to the victims in the first place. For example, The narcissistic parent will always restrict their child from doing anything of his own choice. He will be regulated to always ask for permission. n a relationship, the narcissist will slowly turn you into a codependent by projecting you as a weak person who always needed extended support. You may always hear dialects like, “You don’t make good choices, you always need me to help you.” “no one is nice as to you as I am. “ 25. ((Fake)) Apologize((s)) and expects an instant forgiveness You might think that the narcissist never apologizes, they do, but the words of apology have no guilt or remorse and will be self-centered. E.g., “I’m sorry that I made you feel that way.” ((Incorrect. They say IF I made you.)) However, when the narcissist apologizes, they will ask for immediate forgiveness and interact with them as usual. (("Narc - trying to press the Relationship Reset button")). It looks like expecting a toy to dance after changing the battery. ((after NOT changing it or CRUSHING it!)) The urge to control you whenever they want is a narcissistic red flag you should never miss. Consequently, if you refuse to forgive them, the narcissist will end up projecting you as a rude, arrogant, and abusive person for not forgiving them. ((Meme: A Narc would have you believe that your (perfectly natural) REACTION to their abuse is the whole problem, not their abuse (and instigation of) itself.)) “Even though I apologized, you wouldn’t forgive me; that’s so rude of you.” “I’m apologizing for our relationship, and you are trying to destroy it.” ((In other words: after they've kicked you with their hobnail boots (and felt nothing themselves but a bump agains their toes) - as soon as THEY feel better (not angry any more) - YOU'VE got to feel better too...RRRIGHT now!...despite you're the only one who received the injury and agony and need time to recover. And if you don't "jump-to", you're a this/that and doing it deliberately.)) 26. Mentions past traumas as an excuse If the apology part didn’t go well, then the victim part will do, is the mindset of the narcissists. So they play the victim card mentioning their past traumas as an excuse which is a narcissistic red flag. One cannot define their malicious behavior by their past traumas. Accepting such excuses disrespect the people who strive above their traumas and progress in their lives by attaining self-growth. ((Repeat: "One cannot define ((nor excuse/justify)) their malicious behavior by their past traumas". True victims (as opposed to liars) do NOT turn around and subject others to ANY what THEY went through! Victims come out, MORE empathetic than before, not less! Meme: Trauma is just an excuse. The hidden shame is the real deal.)) 7. Show no empathy when we meltdown ((a biggie!)) Your partner/family member may cry, ask for your presence when they are down, or always looks obsessed with you. But, when you meltdown, if they were rude or expressed no reaction, that is the biggest red flag for someone to be a narcissist. Since narcissists have no empathy, they never try to understand their partner’s emotions. They even get annoyed by the fact that you are upset and can’t give attention to them for a period. ((Repeat: "They even get annoyed by the fact that you are upset and can’t give attention to them for a period.")) 28. No will to change We all know that “change is inevitable,” and that is you are trying to undo the narcissistic trap. But, narcissists have no intention to change as they are proud of their traits. Narcissists always hate results that take time, like genuine success, healing, and personal growth. So, if a person denies changing or fails to change even though they had promised, take it as a narcissistic red flag. ((AND STAYS FOREVERMORE CHANGED!...DOES NOT KEEP REVERTING TO AS BAD AS EVER OR WORSE THAN BEFORE!)) Narcissists hate the word “change” and might freak out if you ask them to change. Some repetitive dialects that narcissists would say if you asked them to change are, “I would never change; that’s my policy.” “I won’t change for anyone; if you truly care about me, change yourself.” “Don’t ask me to change; there is nothing wrong on my side; you are the one who should change.” 29. I Need Space You may raise the opinion that giving space to your partners is a healthy thing. Obviously, it is. However, narcissists ask for space in certain circumstances that you can easily indicate as a narcissistic red flag. They ask for a space at the initial phase of the ghosting/ narcissistic discarding. ((Yeah. If you needed space then why didn't you ever say so, until right now when it's oh-so-convenient for getting you off the hook. Funny, that.)) Why do narcissists ask for a space? Mac Davidson, a former therapist and Narcissism expert says narcissists ask for space so that you don’t see what they do when you aren’t around. ((Yup!)) ((Including starting to see their friends without you there(!!!))) The narcissist may want to control you, test your boundaries, or be busy with other partners and doesn’t want you to know about it. 30. Calls us Suffocating if we ask for attention ((despite they set that appetite and expectation to begin with!)) Narcissists ask for an infinite supply of attention and validation but never return it back ((reciprocate it)). If your partner seems to be like that, and when you decide to put your self-worth in front and ask for attention, if they get annoyed and call you needy, obsessive, suffocating, etc., consider it as a narcissistic red flag. “Don’t always stick around me; you are so attached to me.” “Don’t be over-obsessive.” “Don’t drink down my throat.” ((Huh??)) were some hurting ((hurtful)) dialects narcissists may use during this situation. ((Maybe the foreign ones? LOL)) 31. Having an enabler family member or friend A narcissistic enabler (("and Flying Monkey")) is one who is closer to the narcissists, validating their actions and giving perennial attention by assuming the person is right and the victims are at fault. Narcissists use enablers to abuse, conduct smear campaigns, triangulate, and hoover back the victim. It is a narcissistic red flag if you find such a person with them who always validates their wrong behaviors. You can often find an enabler as siblings, parents, friends, etc. 32. Neglecting responsibilities Narcissists adapt themselves to survive by hiding the ((their)) shame and trauma ((if they even WERE truly traumatised!)) rather than accepting and gaining self-growth. This is why narcissists neglect to hold themselves accountable for their actions and be responsible. Instead, they gaslight and blame shift others to avoid conflicts and responsibilities. Finding someone who doesn’t take responsibility is easy as you can see that they blame-shift others and try to escape. If you find someone, mark it as a narcissistic red flag. 33. Treats your Pets bad((ly)) Do you have a pet that you love more than anything? If yes, the narcissist may not like that. Narcissists initially seem to adore your pet, but they become ruder to them soon. At worst, narcissists may even punish your pet instead of punishing you. ((Or your/yours and his child)) Why are narcissists rude to your pet? Narcissists are self-centric ((self-centred/egocentric)) and want their victims to give their full attention ((and lackey-ing)) to them. No matter who they were, or what it looked like, they compete with what ((whatever)) diverts your attention from them. The narcissists might be more abusive around both you and your pet. So, if you find someone acting rudely towards pets for no reason, consider it a narcissistic red flag. ((Usually of a Narc-Spath.)) 34. Impose Physical attraction into kids ((or highly-inappropriately sexualize their kids and treat them like dolls)) ((Some non-rebellioius)) Children raised by narcissistic parents possess similar characteristics to their parents. One of them is that they are more concerned about exterior beauty and ignore the growth of personality. This results from narcissistic parents who give more importance to physical attraction ((Appearances count more than Substance (NOT))). You can indicate this narcissistic red flag if you see parents who ((inappropriately)) exhibit their bodies and be ((overly)) proud of them ((and flaunt them)). Narcissistic parents may also compare their kids to others who are physically attractive and set high expectations. So, the kids of narcissists transform into one who is obsessed with how their body looks. Psychologists say that promoting body positivity excessively also can lead to such a phenomenon. 35. Glamourize their death If the narcissists’ plan to gain control over you fails, they intend to do emotional blackmail and glamourize their death. Situations like these often happen with the narcissistic mother, mother-in-law, grandmother, etc. They trap you under the narcissistic trap with dialogues like “You will understand your mother’s love only after I die,” says while living healthier. “I can sacrifice my life right now for my family,” you can’t even sacrifice your self-pride. “I’m sick and will probably die in a month, please come and visit me,” I’m sick of you all my life. In the end Those mentioned above narcissistic red flags are some crucial things to notice with people around you. Anyone like your colleague, workmates, parents, relatives, siblings, partner, or friends can be narcissistic. So, download the checklist below to keep you reminded of those red flags to escape narcissistic abuse. If you find this info helpful, drop a comment below for our survivor community. Note: Do not hold on to a hurtful relationship until you check every red flag in this checklist. If it is hurtful, you shouldn’t be there, protect yourself, heal faster, and have a happy life." ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Now some lesser-known/very subtle flags, courtesy of other past victims on Quora: https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-lesser-known-red-flags-that-might-indicate-someone-is-a-covert-narcissist Jill G ·Follow Abuse survivor & warrior trained through the trials of life7mo "What are some lesser-known red flags that might indicate someone is a covert narcissist?" Originally Answered: What are the most subtle signs that someone might be a covert narcissist, which are often overlooked by their victims? "The one sign that took me years to recognize (full time mom of 5, married to brilliant covert narc for 19yrs) because it was SO subtle is what I now call “The Giving Tree”. Giving of themselves in ways that actually violate boundaries, make more work or take away your free thought and desire. Example 1: In a public setting - “Are you cold? Would you like my jacket”? “No thank you”. “Are you sure”? “Yes, I’m sure. Thank you for offering”. ”Here have my jacket” (he says as he wraps it around your shoulders.) You’ve said NO. He does it anyway. Now, if you complain or retort in any way - You look like an ungrateful person rejecting the “chivalry” forced upon you. In reality, it was never about YOU. It was about the perception of them. Maybe it was a matter that they were too hot and didn’t want to carry the jacket? Whatever it was - it certainly was NOT caring about you or how you feel or what you need. Example 2: You haven’t seen your significant other very much because of competing schedules, kids, busy life. You’re hosting Thanksgiving in your home for your families (17 people) in 2 days. Multiple members of your partners family will be staying in your home for 5 nights, 4 days. You have shopped for and prepped almost all of the food single handedly (while raising 4 children). You’ve cleaned your home and decorated for the holiday. Your partner is home and asks - “What can I do to help”? Oh THANK GOD extra hands your think. So, you hand said partner the list of things and you specifically spell out the priorities. Handing off very clearly 3 things. 1. Vacuum 2. Prep turkey 3. Make sure air mattresses have sheets /pillows. 48hrs later (family arriving in 1hr) Turkey is prepped. Mattresses not done. Vacuuming not done. You have asked multiple times. You’ve been told multiple times yes, I’m on it. Now you’re frustrated and given up. You begin doing it yourself. He comes to you and says “Honey, I told you I would do that. Go sit down.” He vacuums for 2 minutes. Runs off to do something else and never returns. You find he has left the house without telling you right before family arrives. You jump to finish everything and have just managed to put vacuum away when doorbell rings. It’s his family. Where is he? 5 minutes later he walks in with flowers. Flowers for me. Flowers for the table (that already had flowers). Makes a big production of presenting flowers to his amazing wife that he adores and appreciates. Oh look at me, the doting and loving husband, bringing flowers just because. You want to throw them in his face because all you asked for and all you wanted was some actual support and help. If you do that - You’re the monster. When you bite your tongue publicly but attempt to deal with it privately—- You are given the list of all he does do and did do (even if none of it is what you asked, wanted or needed). Followed by the fake apology and statements like “I never want to hurt you”, “I just love you”, “I didn’t realize”. 19yrs later YOU are a monster for finally getting your head out of your a** and filing for divorce. He is an innocent victim of his unappreciative and selfish wife. ((YYYup!)) When someone is “giving” something you don’t want or need - It is NOT giving. ((Nnnope!)) When someone uses what they’ve “given” to justify or cover for their neglect, unreasonable demands or any issue you try to raise - RUN. Do not be a fool. Do not feel guilty. Do not get sucked in to their narrative. Do not allow you and your needs and your well being to be diminished. Do NOT let them manipulate you in to believing YOU are wrong for trying to have a healthy relationship that goes 2 ways." ((Well done, Jill!)) __________________________________________ Alex Walker · Follow Survived a 30 year marriage to a covert narcissist. 6mo What are some signs that someone may be a covert narcissist? Are there any specific behaviors or habits that can indicate this? Originally Answered: What are some signs that someone may be a covert narcissist? Are there any specific behaviors or habits that can indicate this? "I was unknowingly married to a covert narcissist for many years, and although I was in the dark about Narcissist I knew that something didn't feel right about this relationship. To a person without any knowledge of these types of people, they appear average, well rounded, likeable and fun. When the relationship became established is when I really begin to notice things that I hadn't seen in the beginning, but these red flags seemed so insignificant that I simply swept them under the rug. I noticed that this person never accepted responsibility for anything wrong. Someone else was always at fault, although very obvious who owned the wrong. Never received an apology. More times than not, the blame was directed at myself. Gossiping and passing judgment onto others. He began to take on a more supercilious personality instead of his predictable nice Guy persona. Eventually, he included myself in his fault finding games, but did so casually and sometimes disguised as a joke. Passive aggressive comments are their specialty. Talking negative about someone doing something that you have done in the past and remorseful for and prefer to leave it in the past. They are really talking about you. He would belittle me and five minutes later pretend nothing had happened and switch back into the nice guy. I could never wrap my head around it. There is one thing a narcissist does love and that's money. They want nice material possessions, but without the sacrifice it takes sometimes to acquire them. Jealous of people that have more in life than they do, and always have an excuse as to why others have money or material things, such as, they inherited it, a parent/grandparent set them up in their own business, never mentioning the fact that hard work and saving is more likely the reason. Double standards. They will preach good morals and standards, but don't possess any themselves. Adjust their morals to benefit the situation. Want ((won't)) take a stand for anything because they lack a backbone. Cowards. Do favors for people to gain recognition or to gain something in return. They will always remind you of whatever they did for you and you will never be grateful enough according to them ((despite you've done FAR more and bigger, for them!))". __________________________________________ Eric Dirks · Follow 6mo What are some signs that someone may be a covert narcissist? Are there any specific behaviors or habits that can indicate this? Originally Answered: What are some signs that someone may be a covert narcissist? Are there any specific behaviors or habits that can indicate this? My experience with someone with NPD (likely ASPD & NPD co-morbidity) ((a Narcissistic Sociopath/Sociopathic Narcissist)), who had covert traits is in the context of a relationship, so I can only speak from that perspective. ((I call NSpaths, Allverts. They can mix n match between 'states' or run two manipulation platforms/levels at-once.)) Unfortunately identifying their traits can mean going through their long, calculated game of pernicious abuse. The early red flags: -They will play their cards close to their chest, while steering the conversation back to you. -They may not share their likes or dislikes until they have gotten to know you better, and will still be reluctant to do so. -They come off as being very insecure. -They are always the victim and the hero in their stories. They may talk about how horrible someone was to them (they love to smear their exes), but also seem to brag about how coldly they left the person, or how much that peson begged for them back. -You may get intuitive warnings that something is just off about them. The intermittent idealization/devaluation cycle: -They will give you consistent attention, and be very ((VERY!)) convincing in how much they care about you in the early stages. ((And will do so for TOO LONG for you NOT to finally 'give-in' and trust them (ach))...which is when the abuse/devaluing drip-drip starts.)) -They withdraw affection ((and sex)) in micro ways in the beginning and test your reactions. -They will bring subtle negativity into their communication, and walk it back if you call them out, or ask them to explain themselves. -They present as being “misunderstood.” -You may notice inconsistencies in their stories as they tell them again and again. ((Oh boy, do you!)) -If they talk about their exes enough, you will note a distinct pattern of cruetly in the way they end relationships. This may be intentional, to gauge your reaction to abandonment. -They subtly probe your weaknesses by saying cruel, condescending, or cold things, but will be vague enough to allow room for them to change the narrative and the spirit of their words. Again, they are looking for your weaknesses, and gathering information on what hurts you to obtain a greater measure of control over your emotional responses. ((Collecting Ammo)) -They will gaslight you. Their inconsistencies will start to add up, and if they have secured your trust through idealization (("Idealize, Devalue, (fake or real but never lasting) Discard")), you will be vulnerable to believing their contradictory narratives. This will cause you to question your memories, which has a profound and damaging affect on one's psyche. ((Repeat: Which has a profoundly damaging effect on ones psyche.)) -They will begin to withdraw affection more and more. They will begin to stonewall, and give you silent treatment. ((and fail to protect or save you the minute you're in trouble where all prior feelings should be set aside...but are instead brought to the fore)). -When you hit near a breaking point, they will swoop in and re-idealize ((re-Love-Bomb)) you ((/bring Prince Charming back)). This will bring about grand relief, and cause your attachment to grow. This is where the trauma bond takes hold. ((YUP! Ever play the childhood prank called, "SAVED YA!"? No...(when it's a Narc-Spath) they PUT you in DANGER before REMOVING you from danger (that little bit late), actually!)) -The cycle of idealization and devaluation will swing with greater momentum. Eventually the periods of idealization will diminish to breadcrumbs, and you will be devauled more and more. ((And called all manner of disgusting names/labels, gross expletives included! Suddenly Prince Charming has turned into a Chav...an ASBO merchant....a scumbag delinquent....someone whom you've never before met and wouldn't have wanted to(!)) -They will isolate you from your support network as you start to obsess about how to get the love back into the relationship. Setting you up to fall: -They will cheat on you. They may try to even leave hints that they are being unfaithful, to try to hurt you more. (("The Sociopathic Reveal / Duper's Delight" and "The Dark Triad/Tetrad and sadism")). If they can get that truth to land, but leave enough plausible deniability ((- capital letters)) to not actually get caught, that serves them even better. -They will become overtly cruel to you, all the breadcrumbs of affection stop coming. They will completely disregard and ignore you, and may feed you just enough lies to get you to keep coming back for more punishment. -They will avoid meaningful communication with you. Attempts to clarify or discuss their increasingly abusive behavior will be punished. -They will rage at you. -They may attempt to physically harm you. -They seem to hold you in utter contempt, but will act as if nothing is wrong, and may try to keep you coming around to endure more of their mistreatment. -You may catch a delighted smirk when something they say or do really hurts you. ((Again - "Duper's Delight" and Sadism.)) -They will discard you, or manipulate you into leaving them so they can play the victim and control the narrative. -They will leave you no closure, and everything will be your fault. Their mask will come off entirely. They will make it clear they have zero regard for you or your feelings - ironically this will be one of the few times they are completely honest with you. This is the culmination of their long-game. This coup de grâce has been planned, and is entirely intentional. -They will leave you hurt, confused, ruminating, ashamed, and psychologically broken. One of the big takeaways, and consistent themes in this abusive cycle is cognitive dissonance ((Capitals)). It is important to understand that quite a bit of the damage comes from being cognitively split between living in two contradicting states. You are caught between, “they love me, they love me not,” and the human mind will struggle mightily to make sense of this and reach some state of equilibrium. ((You're in the thick of Cognitive Dissonance right now, and it's partner, Confirmation Bias.)) They lack the internal frame of reference to live in a consistent reality, and their persona consists only of the masks they create for you, and their delusional false-idealized self that is solidified by their dominance and subjugation of you. In essence, they become you and take the things they admire about you ((your quirks, jokes, sayings, anecdotes, history, possessions, money, friends, relatives!!....)), then they devalue and break you to prove to themselves they are better than you. They walk away with the character traits they have acquired from you, and repeat the cycle anew." ___________________________________ ((Bravo, Eric - that was practically a masterpiece/masterclass! Especially the 'stealing your identity, personality, LIFE, basically!)) ((Oh - and: NSpaths don't end 'relationships'. They end the partner. Just, maybe not physically. This type are the most dangerous. They're as extreme/out-there as malignant narc-psychopaths but unlike the super-self-controlled psycho, NSpaths are out-of-control Hot-Heads....Insane Toddler in a fit of seething, despising rage, holding a machete, anyone?)). Really-really-really hope that helps clear up ALL of your confusion, Gee. And, give you an idea of the workload involved that you're taking on. This is why most psychotherapists/counsellors these days run a mile rather than waste a whole decade trying to make what works on Normals/the damaged-but-healables, work on NPDs...the secret pathologicals. (It's so sad. These were once innocent, ready-to-love, kiddies.))

Found you another good'un (as forewarned is fore-armed and all that). "Carolyn Zacher · Follow Scapegoat of my Family. Raised by Narcissist. BA Pscyhology 4y How do narcissists act when they lose control? Originally Answered: How do narcissists act when they lose control? This question really makes me think. It’s a good one! Narcissists engage in vertical relationships, never horizontal. It’s always parent-child or vice versa. ((Google "Narcissist - Parentifying the victim".) They often flip being the parent or the child ((they're actually constantly a (emotionally thick-as-pig-sh*t) child)), which keeps us confused. It’s a push-pull relationship. Within these relationships, regardless of the role they are taking at the moment, it is the role of superiority and control. If they are the child, they are the victim, and you must take care of them. They will whine. They might throw tantrums. They might act incapable of doing normal, typical things. You will then do all or most of the physical work. Work the job. Do the housework. Cook. Clean. Pay for things. Run the errands. Care for the kids. Pay the bills. Make responsible decisions while they spend frivolously, not thinking about the future. ((Wanted a husband/wife, got Chucky instead.)) If they are the parent, the tell you what to do. ((But so do they as the child.)) They boss you around. They get the grownup stuff. The better car or the only car. The house is decorated and furnished as they like. The bigger TV. Or they choose the shows if there is only one TV. They tell you how to think. How to live your life. They talk down to you, condescending. Tell you how to act. What your conduct should be and why. What your moral codes should be and why. They are dictators in this role. ((Plus, even if you arrive at the relationship an expert in your career/field, give it a year and, suddenly, according to them/by their behaviour, THEY'RE suddenly the expert while you know JACK-SH*T (- other way round..."Projection")). Never, ever will you be equal meaning both adults at the same time or both children at the same time. You will be forced into one of the roles, and if you pay attention, you can see which role they are taking in the moment. Never, ever will you be team players, working together for the common good. Nope. That doesn’t fit into their world. I believe all actions those with NPD do, are ones which will put them in a position of Superiority (as defined by them). Every. Single. Action. I had to preface my response with this background info so you can understand where they are coming from and how they think, if you didn’t already know this. It’s a contest. It’s competition. ((Except that they never tell YOU that (or else it'd give you equal advantage), and nor do they compete; they sabotage you and your attempts to get ahead, instead.)) You win. Or, you lose. Both cannot win. It’s polarization. It’s mine, or it’s yours. This is why their actions can be confusing, inconsistent, unreliable. Volatile one minute and seemingly loving the next, within what looks like the same situation, the same context, leaving us so confused. ((Intentionally)) However, if you look at every action the narcissist takes, that you don’t understand, from a different end goal, and ask yourself, “Does that action put him in a place of power? Superiority? Control? Above me?” Then, you will find, the answer is a resounding YES, every time. Now it will all be clear. Now you will have your “why.” This is their end-all, be-all goal. Not honesty. Not being right. Not getting to the best case scenario. Not winning the game. Not being a team player. Not logic. Not consistency. Not predictability. Not pleasing you. Not acting in a moral way. Or loving. Or caring. Rather, being on top. It’s you. Or it’s them. (("Narc - 'Hit Or Be Hit'")) Not both of you. There is only room for one at the top. And yes, it matters who is on top. It ((had)) better be them. Imagine there is a pyramid… a triangle, if you will, with the point at that top. That is where the narcissist sits. Always. Immediately underneath the point, but still within the inside of the triangle, is her Flying Monkey(s). Next, down inside the triangle toward the bottom and all around inside of it, but definitely under the FM’s, is the rest of her slaves. Oops. I meant “friends” “lovers” “spouses” and “family.” Those in her inner circle. Those in her world. She is at the apex of everyone in her personal network, her inner circle. (("Narc - The Spider In The Web")) When someone sits on top of a pyramid, a pedestal, it is NECESSARY for others to be UNDERNEATH. In other words, you cannot be superior without someone else being INFERIOR. You cannot control, without a person to control. You cannot be superior, smart, without a comparison of someone else that is LESS smart. And, you cannot be superior if the other person KNOWS you’re doing it. It is in the manipulation itself, getting you to do something that goes against your own sense of self, your own core, that keeps them superior. Because, you are doing things against your own will, at their hand. (("Narc - Puppeteer")) This means they are smarter than you. Superior. This means you deserve what you get, because you did it to yourself. They didn’t “put a gun to your head.” And if you didn’t know you did it to yourself, you still deserve your position of inferiority, because you lack intelligence. You are stupid. You can’t see the truth in what is happening. Even if it’s because of your silly emotions, it doesn’t matter. Still stupid. Therefore, INFERIOR. Less Than, while they are More Than. You deserve your place in life. And they definitely deserve theirs. Above you. So what if you try and knock her((/him)) off, even unknowingly? Punishment. You will learn not to do this. This is called a Narcissistic Injury. You will pay, be punished, as she climbs back up to her pedestal by stepping on you as the ladder. She KNOWS you are trying to knock her off, (even if you don’t know it’s a power struggle), and therefore, she must set the score straight, taking back her position, and letting you know she knows what you tried to do. If she DIDN’T know, then you would be the smarter one. That cannot be. If she DIDN’T take her place of superiority back and also do it with your knowing, then she would be inferior. That cannot be. ((...and yet, it so easily can - if you know how)). This position must be enforced. It must be acknowledged. It must be maintained. So, does a narcissist use anger to rile you up, to get fuel? Yes. This creates you beneath him, doing their biddings, he wins the argument, therefore, he manipulated and controlled you. It was so easy for him to see you concede to your pathetic human emotions he so easily controlled the situation, and therefore you, as he sits atop his pedestal, pulling the strings. So, would this anger be an example of a narcissist “losing control?” HELL, NO. This is full control and validation of his superiority. Any emotion he uses, which is often faked, in order to control you, which results in you doing his biddings = a win. Control = Superiority. How does a Narcissist lose control? You find him out. You discover he is a fake. You discover what he is really about. The gig is up. He can then no longer use you for fuel. You’ve then topped him at his own game, not even knowing it was a game. You won. Checkmate. I guess he wasn’t so smart after all. And you weren’t so stupid. Ugg. That sucks ass, because that is their entire world, their M.O., now turned upside down. What good is a CIA agent now found out? No more covert operation. That definitely, permanently knocks him off his pedestal as far as you are concerned. You… the previous slave-but-now-the-superior-one. You just momentarily stepped up and sat on his pedestal. This CANNOT BE. You will be kicked out of the triangle and you can no longer exist within his inner circle. Within the pyramid of superiority. If you cannot be controlled, you cannot exist in his world. If he cannot sit atop you, control you, then YOU are superior to HIM. This cannot be. This is tragic. This is extreme unraveling of the knitted sweater and therefore you shall be ignored. The narcissist has lost control of YOU and so HE must go NO CONTACT with you. Or minimal contact, if you must be in contact. You will not be allowed within his pyramid. You exist outside of it. Not a part of it. They will act completely different, like you’ve never seen them act. Quiet. Small. Minimal interactions with you. Honestly, I believe they don’t know how to act. So they avoid you. You remind them of how they are no longer superior to you. How they lost the game to you. It’s got to be extremely unsettling to them. That would be my guess." ((Correct, but worse: Makeshift-Sanity/Reality-threatening, actually. You can BREAK them. This is why they try to dominate you to begin with. They WANT you. But you could prove dangerous. So they bind and gag you to the chair, and even sit on you...using your own, healthy-normal mentality and programming. (("Narc - using your strengths against you".))" (Excellent!)

Thanks everyone who has replied here. I understand you look out for me and I appreciate that, only had he been or is rather a narc I would have known it by now given his diagnosis. No matter what an unhealthy relationship is just that and it is nothing you should put up with, narc or no narc. I have scars from it that is for sure but trying to move forward best way I know how. I have just now decided to tell him my version of events of my work situation with the coworker and if his OCD strike big time then we take it from there.Take care everyone, wishing you all the best. I wont post here no more or at the forum.

Gee, "I have just now decided to tell him my version of events of my work situation with the coworker and if his OCD strike big time then we take it from there.T" Good decision, I think. See how he takes it. Is he New & Improved or IS it just an act. 'She who dares, wins', and all of that? Don't be sad - you CAN keep posting, but it's the justificatory and normalising ins-and-outs I was referring and objecting to. Sorry I didn't express myself well enough, I'm stuck-fast in a Busynami at the mo (again). E.g. you could log how it all goes, and that would be very helpful to you for instant access/reminders of what went on, when, etc., to keep you 'sane' as well as well-aware of exactly where you are, or aren't, along the progressing/succeeding path? Experiments, solutions and progress we like. ? PS: He might well just be too insecure for a relationship? Constant Insecurity is the atomic crux of Narcissism, anyway, so, possibly one WOULDN'T see many differences and distinguishers between the two, merely on-paper? Or maybe he's (C)PTSD-ed and it IS just a phase?

Okay, I've missed a lot. If I've let you down in this thread, I apologize, Geelives. The past couple of weeks have gotten hectic, and there's always some new thing going on in my life to worry over anymore. Saturdays have become the only foolproof days where I can sit down at the computer and post replies on Peoples' Problems. It's been hard to set aside the time to catch up on some of these threads, and to actually give feedback on them. I'm actually here today, and was planning on going back through your thread to catch up now. But I see that you've decided to stop posting here a few days ago. In a way I could kick myself, because it seemed like I was within reach of getting back to you. Of course, on the other hand, I don't know what advice I would have come up with once I read through everything. I also have this weird situation where I am just about to have more free time for the Summer, so I could potentially check back here more - and at the same time, I have less privacy than ever at the moment since my girlfriend is home more right now. She doesn't want me to talk to other people online and has an issue with me using this website, which fortunately she doesn't know the name of, just that I visit a website to talk to people about issues. If you're gone for good, then you do you, and I hope we've been helpful for you. I would want for you to walk away from Peoples' Problems with the feeling that you've resolved your problem and no longer require our help. But if you ever find that you need people to talk to, and still don't have everything sorted out enough, then feel free to stop back in and start a new post. I don't know if your husband is a narcissist, and like I say I haven't really gotten caught up on anything here for a while now. All I can say is that we choose who we choose for our own reasons, and we know what we are and aren't willing to put up with in a relationship. You're with your husband and you accept the whole package, including any flaws that may come with that such as his OCD. One day that may change, and you may find you're a different person, or he's a different person, or you just want something else. Or you may be perfectly content with your arrangement, and see those downsides as a small price to pay for the rest of the happiness your relationship brings to your lives. People are a complicated lot, and the only person you can control is yourself. You want to be good to yourself and look out for yourself, first and foremost. Any love you have left to give to somebody else, that should come after. Monitor your own energy, and don't spread yourself too thin. ...And these are just random bits of advice, they don't necessarily have to relate to your current predicaments. Best of luck to you and your husband, Geelives. We appreciated the time you spent around here. Enjoy life!